“Mutiny in Heaven” 198 Seth Kim-Cohen The Sessions from the “Mutiny” April 4, 2005 ONE REASON TO LIVE: TO LIVE: REASON ONE DATE: GUEST: Birthday Party—

199 Julius Julius Nil, he hosted One Reason To on Live Resonance University University School of and Art is the editor of this volume. FM FM in . For one of the last episodes of the pro- From February of 2004 to April of 2005, under the alias same scrutiny to which he subjected so many others, he 200 One Reason To Live gram, thinking it only fair that he subject himself to the tal rock music with his ten and produced seven to host. He has writ- I was aware of the Birthday Party and and Party Birthday the of aware Iwas bands, bands, Number One invited Andrew Morgan nrw Morgan: Andrew would have hit London in the early- the in London hit have would albums of experimen- Cup and The Fire Show. London right in the middle of a very very a of middle the in right London their noise around. When did you first probably around this time, time, this around probably Cave Nick this, but not this, in particular. So, prob- was listening to things in the vicinity of to turn me onto the Birthday Party and I Seth Seth Kim-Cohen: ably, it wasn’t until the late-80s, maybe had an aversion to Nick Cave’s voice and 80s, as this Australian band arrives in sort sort of steered clear of it. Friends tried come into contact with this? throwing starts and scene pop clean early-80s—’83 it came out—but I always even even the that early-90s, I started to lis- Not in the moment. Now this tune tune this Now Seth Kim-Cohen is a con- Kim-Cohen Seth I first became aware of the Birthday Birthday the of aware became first I rently a Lecturer at Yale AM: AM: and musician. He is cur- He is musician. and feel as if pop music was an easy thrill or Fire Show. the 90s? I mean, I do hear elements of Party. It was much poppier and not as as not and poppier Party.much was It Birthday the like all at wasn’t Party them. The music that I was making when things are not unrelated. In fact, I don’t the point where I started to feel that as ten ten to it actively, and then not until the that band, Number One Cup, I started to then, through the course of playing with SK-C: SK-C: an easy pleasure. I didn’t find it terribly and it became important music to me. know how you could really separate separate really could you how know mid-90s that mid-90s I really fond became of it repetitive, more repetitive, formal song structure: verse-chorus-verse kind of stuff. But But stuff. of kind verse-chorus-verse its its attitude and song structure in the it played into some of your projects in ceptual sonician, ceptual writer sonician, connection to it or important in how in important or it to connection difficult to write pop songs and I got to Important in just the personal personal the just in Important Yeah, definitely. But the two two the But definitely. Yeah, I was becoming dissatisfied with the the with dissatisfied becoming was I AM: AM: Number One Cup and some of your your of some and Cup One Number Michael Lenzi, what he wanted to do do to wanted he what Lenzi, Michael two guys decided they wanted to do do to wanted they decided guys two together—which music make to trying wanted to do. music that the II making was became time that I was getting dissatisfied with this that had those layers and that kind was hearing it in, of course. There was a that I wasn’t hearing in the music I was and and to the idea of three equal partners SK-C: it so and Party Birthday the of aware attraction. And when I would hear surface a music than deeper much anything I songs, good writing were we band a making. And this wasn’t the only music I music, I was committed to the project project the to committed Iwas music, is is fraught with problems. But the other more experimental projects? lot of stuff I had listened to way before like this I would hear layers and depths up up it was my against will. Even though started to fistarted of lter into stuff kind the I other things, and one of those two, two, those of one and things, other same the around was it But depth. of guess, but we weren’t really getting at getting really we weren’t but guess, or so. When Number One Cup broke broke Cup One Number When so. or How long was the gap between between gap the was long How Not that long, maybe 9 months months 9 maybe long, that Not “do you want to play together again? I’ll I mean we had established enough mu- And you can tell from what I am describ- And so he was really out of the picture, AM: AM: AM: with many members of the Birthday Birthday the of members many with 9 months, yeah. Party, but not as the Birthday Party? stuff solo his to on going and Party for for Nick Cave in leaving the Birthday tar, we could do interesting things, lead gui- the on skills rudimentary his with what what the music fi nally like, or sounded was was switch from playing drums to play- wanted to do was give up the rock band with bass players. The other main com- wound wound up with a something little more we democracy, of process the through about 9 months teaching himself to play SK-C: SK-C: and devote himself to acoustic, instru- acoustic, to himself devote and aspirations than to be just a pop band, at his basement one day and it just worked. reason, I agreed anyway. I showed up at play guitar now.” And I said “well you’ve him, he wanted to have more say in in say more have to wanted he him, player, Patrick O’Connell, and what he he what and O’Connell, Patrick player, ponent in that band was the other guitar mental stuff like John Fahey-type things. pop band. pop But band. when we came together, more than listeners adventurous just a in the writing process, I suppose, and and Isuppose, process, writing the in ing guitar. I couldn’t hold that against against that hold guitar. I couldn’t ing ing, that Number One Cup had bigger bigger had Cup One Number that ing, in the new project? least in terms of our listening. We were been playing 20 years.” But, for some some for But, years.” 20 playing been I’ve months, 9 for guitar playing been sical sical communication by then that even as spent, IHe band. say,the quit he so guitar and then called me up and said said and up me called then and guitar each other interesting places. So about down-the-middle. cut off all the interesting corners and we doing something completely different. different. completely something doing And so the bass player didn’t join So do you think that happened happened that think you do So Well, we’ve always had trouble trouble had always we’ve Well,

201 Seth Kim-Cohen 202 One Reason To Live AM: fore the band crumbled, in the midst of If I was a good host I would have all all have would I host good a was I If these things up my sleeve. like that. I am trying to think of exam- Harvey switched from playing guitar and tend to wind up making lesser music. that it starts to go in a different direction, tinuation of the Birthday Party. But after their last tour or something like that. And be- shortly quit he understand, I what to playing drums. And then I think, from ples the other way to prove you wrong. ally—artists who try to move away from a a Birthday Party record, the logical con- SK-C: SK-C: and what he was after and why it hap- it why and after was he what and SK-C: not going to psychoanalyze him from a more ballady, much more conservative, much singer-songwriter, more much maybe that’s what precipitated the end, I mer had either quit or had been kicked drum- the way.that Ithat know pened hind the break up of the Birthday Party ing. I can’t really listen to anything Nick interest- less much and opinion, my in Cave has done in the last 10 years. 10 years. last in the done has Cave I’m Cave solo sounds very much like sometimes bass and sometimes piano piano sometimes and bass sometimes gular way of making music, in my collectiveopinion, way of making music to a sin- distance, I’ll just say—much more gener- don’t know. But obviously the first Nick out before the last album and then Mick I guess there are a lot of examples Maybe it will come to us. I don’t know the whole story be- I’m not going to psychoanalyze Nick Nick psychoanalyze to going not I’m AM: AM: AM: AM: your neck and you were laid up for for up laid were you and neck your fend myself and make an argument, after Is this the type of thing that drew you this completely unrelated? tence, sort of intentionally. It’s rough, to when you are paralyzed? Are you you Are paralyzed? are you when to were you hospital, a in weeks two looking for something to relax you? to listening this? Are you for looking listening to music. What do you listen way. I mean I hear that it is in there, I’m that just strike one as either wrong or wrong either as one strike just that tations, or dissonance or rhythmic inac- expec- upset and off veer things where errantism—you of sort this had which the fact, for why my stuff sucks. Again, to psychoanalyze myself from inside my paralyzed for two days, sitting around am not very skilled and am trying to de- about it is that I, myself, as a practitioner, angry music—and I just don’t hear it that SK-C: SK-C: aesthetically in the stuff I tended to like, SK-C: SK-C: not stupid—but again that is that again for others not stupid—but not-quite-right. Another way of thinking moments, of sorts errant these know, hear this and the way it is often defend- ing how I wound up studying what I am Cave from a distance, so a from distance, Cave goingnot I’m into your current line of study or is is or study of line current your into it’s unpolished, it’s not always on key. a lot of this album displays incompe- displays album this a of lot studying: one is that I was drawn to it to drawn Ithat was is one studying: curacy. Or, in literature and art, things things art, and curacy.Or, literature in on artistic incompetence, as you de- you as incompetence, artistic on ed or championed is as aggressive, dark, don’t hear this—and I know most people own head. That’s up to someone else. scribed scribed it to me earlier. It seems that since you can’t kick the wall or are you something to release your aggression So, Seth, you are writing a Ph.D. Ph.D. a writing are you Seth, So, So, a few years ago you broke broke you ago years few a So, I think there’s two ways of think- No, and and that No, out II point should That’s pretty much the song. And Nick Nick And song. the much pretty That’s AM: AM: the classic rock intervals—the bass bass intervals—the rock classic the it’s know, you way, the by Water” the on “Smoke as notes three tern—same tell he is playing kick drum, occasion- drum, kick playing is he tell tablishes the form of the song. And the trajectory of rock history. They’ve boiled to decide—but what I hear is really inter- SK-C: SK-C: art, but it’s not really singing in a con- a in singing really not it’s but art, ally accenting the bass line, but there there but line, bass the accenting ally a weird way, especially from within the melodic melodic content, nothing else really es- nothing else that’s carrying any kind of ride ride thing, high hat thing. There are no ventional sense. it down to the bare essentials. The bass is is none of the typical ride, the metrical Cave isn’t really singing, he’s telling a telling he’s singing, really isn’t Cave line doesn’t change and there is really really is there and change doesn’t line pat- little it’s from veer not does line story or, you know, some kind of verbal cymbals as sort of sonic…. cymbals in the drum playing. There are drums are hardly there. As far as I can esting music, stuff that is put together in It’s kind of preaching. Texture, stuff around it…. Yeah, and that’s pretty much it. it. much pretty that’s and Yeah, I fi nd it a really exciting way to make make to way Ifi exciting really a it nd filling in the spaces, and I think, in very form known as Pansori which is usually fessional. And then the rest of the band then the band’s job, it’s not a very big big very a not it’s job, band’s the then the coloring of the song, or, I don’t here, doing know, is Party Birthday the what ways within their medium, is similar to the song with sonic garbage. And to me, working, and I think they are an amaz- an are and Ithey think working, a string player or a wind player, just just player, wind a or player string a and he does turn a phrase well—I’ll give a a melody which is fairly repetitive, and and they basically tell a story, often tra- SK-C: making it sound a little simpler than it than a simpler little it sound making really listen to this for Nick Cave’s goth- ment to provide some tension, when he accent to just is job their and panists, him that—but that’s not what I get from music. music. I’ll get a little weird ethno-musi- very long songs, 40 minutes or more, more, or minutes 40 songs, long very it, it, not to accompany, in any traditional is. But they do something, that in some ic-cartoon-Roman-Catholic-heroin-ad- interesting ways, in this music. So I don’t is just there to throw stuff at it, to litter ing band, one of the two best working working best two the of one band, ing it. I’m interested in the way the band is lull. But, it’s not quite so illustrative. I’m usually one or sometimes two accom- two sometimes or one usually sometimes and drummer a just band, sense. But when it gets to the tense mo- gets to the lulling moment to add some in points the certain story, not to carry dict-stuff, I mean that’s all kind of funny, ditional folk tales. And the singer sings cological here, but there is a Korean song Yeah, a little preachy, a little con-

203 Seth Kim-Cohen 204 One Reason To Live The way those two bands work for me me for work bands two those way The I couldn’t get my hands on it, literally. I Anything I had heard about that had re- AM: AM: AM: AM: words guy. A lot of the art work you do to when you are paralyzed? language and things like that but you to ask someone to put some headphones there and listen. So I did listen to hours to a whole different level. through my veins, which takes listening SK-C: SK-C: away from the angle of my bed and I and bed my of angle the from away a book, read a book. The T.V. in this hos- and hours of music with the very ben- very the with music of hours and playing that that your I Did Iknow. answer playing hands on, or your ears on, because, well pital room was conveniently 45 degrees me me to bring CDs and I had piles of CDs. is the best example of rock ensemble ensemble rock of example best the is in the hospital. ily and friends and whoever would visit mean, what do you think of the lyrics? in this tune at all. Is that totally true? I interested in what Nick Cave has to saymentioned that you are really not that is connected to words and speech and question at all? one that I always mention is the Band. Band. the is that mention Ione always ensembles within rock music. The other cause I am curious. What do you listen on my head and hit play. I asked my fam- couldn’t watch the T.V. All I could so Iobviously, head, my do turn wascouldn’t couldn’t raise my hand so I couldn’t hold ous ous about. That was the time to just sit that out curi- I come mildly was cently efi cial lubricant of morphine running running morphine of efilubricant cial I don’t know what I asked. Oh Oh yeah, let’s get back to that be- tik f o a piaiy a primarily as you of think I You asked about what I listened to Really anything you can get your “Well I turned and fled this fucking heap I had to look up this word “pinions,” not for art and subjects for black, dark, rock Burroughs or something like that. But But that. like something or Burroughs this story. Essentially it is a very simple What Inot am sites. lyric online those there are some great lines in the song, song, the in lines great some are there SK-C: SK-C: ance—with heroin addiction. I find both a a little in self-aggrandizing, a way. You ably one of the first ones to do it to this a level of verbal virtuosity that you don’t really interested in is the whole arc of of arc whole the is in interested really religious imagery—confession and pen- imagery—confession religious hobo,” William Faulkner-meets-William beautiful the “I’m of sort that know, a probably is Which especially. music, knowing if I was hearing it correctly. correctly. Iit if Ihearing knowing was ions, with splints and rags and crutch- and rags and splints with ions, little bit unfair to him, as he was prob- was he as him, to unfair bit little looked it up and it is, in fact, the bone bone the fact, in is, it and up it looked simple sort of scene. It’s very a mixingstory, a it Catholic, call can you if story, structure of a bird’s wings. I guess that of these subjects a bit boring as subjects extent. extent. But I’ve always found his lyrics couldn’t make out the words at first and es.” That’s put. pretty And beautifully I pin- flaming my wings, doctored on out is amazing. The very beginning goes often get in song lyrics. The way it starts I did print them out from one of one from out them I print did AM: A the stereo field and you hear it as just the that classic, “Well “Well there and I classic, that turned,” tive ways and I find that beginning very way the vocals way work in the vocals this song that I tertain my ears with an interesting turn time. wanted me to, I could just talk the whole ally rise up through ally the and rise up music you through a multi-tracked vocal performance. It performance. vocal multi-tracked a SK-C: asked you if you wanted to come in and SK-C: am really fond of…. host and make me the guest, that if you he has obviously got a mastery of lan- of mastery a got obviously has he voice of the song in a fairly—well it’s not is is a pause, and then he comes in. It’s a is where rack and pinion in car steering interested in the whole arc of it, so to to so it, of arc whole the in interested bling as this, is just occasionally to en- occasionally is just as this, bling song lyric, especially something as ram- starts off with Nick Cave in the middle of speak. But there is another thing in the good narrative device. What a What in I like device. narrative good compelling, especially when he does does he when especially compelling, evoca- very in it using is he and guage comes from, a certain kind of joint. But go “oh that’s good.” But I’m not really really not But I’m good.” that’s “oh go occasion- words the that so phrase, of M :

That’s completely fine. Do tell. What I like is the multiplicity. It’s Sorry, I did say to you, when I when you, to say did I Sorry, And you’re not sure if they are debating And I am interested in what that means AM: AM: to think of music like this, about the about this, like music of think to the way that you have a guy preaching that typical—but you are used to hearing that it is not clearly a conversation or or conversation a clearly not is it that the mix and at certain points it gets very just just one voice telling you the song, tell- just cacophonous with voices, all these people egging each other on, I mean mean I on, other each egging people SK-C: know what to make of this, whether the fi the So right. and one left rst panned voices doing all these different things. things. different these all doing voices is more than one I in there. True of all of is. Who is the “I” when he says “I?” Therein terms of who the narrator of the song ing you the story or whatever. And then in how all these voices are swirling into it does have a religious quality to it in multi-tracked. little devil-on-the-shoulder kind of thing. us, I suppose. busy with voices and then in the end it’s appreciate that appreciate quality to it. It’s hard I responding. and yelling people and second voice is…I want say that it is the dise” sounds like the whole band is is band whole the like sounds dise” of interrupts the fi the don’t You interrupts voice. of rst sort and side right the from in comes other voices start coming in and they’re clearly an argument. So I am interested each other up because it’s poetic enough or agreeing with each other or backing conscience of the fi rst voice, or it’s the sound like you of had like a crowd sound whole probably is it although screaming, But just that element of making it And the refrain of “rats in para- in “rats of refrain the And I think it is, yes.

205 Seth Kim-Cohen 206 One Reason To Live AM: who are very well-produced and have very great sounds in the studios. And the the creative catch of this band, being there is always that problem of bands screaming, of objects, iron large ting of and layers layers is this obviously how that works live and what makes hesively. I would be interested to know how they pulled this together. Because this this point. I believe —who were sort of whittled down as a band at and I don’t did they recording last the and and this on isn’t it. I know don’t if they SK-C: SK-C: he played on this and then went on to to on went then and this on played he know if they ever did perform it live, they is in Einstürzende Neubauten—I believe record is a product of the studio. road, when so much of what is done on chaotic of collection dirty crazy, it’s hit- of vocals, his of multi-tracking: it’s doctored in an unnatural way but recording it, because it seems so raw a band a band when you take it on the are. Did you ever see this band live? and natural. But there is so much pro- actual production of it, the process of concoctions that mix together very co- can’t even fi gure out quite what they of distorting things, of sounds that we that say to want I don’t it. in duction could have pulled this one off live. It was I would be very interested to know No, I wish I had. Yeah, they do have a live record record live a have Yeah, do they I mean at the beginning it was a little little a was it beginning the at Imean It’s the same thing that James Brown’s ferent aesthetic context. And then the the then And context. aesthetic ferent So they were kind of whittled down as a Howard. They were really talented noise- wrote horn parts. Whatever you need need you Whatever parts. horn wrote working for them, was mainly these two when he formed the Bad Seeds. You can was the bass player and the drummer drummer the and player bass the was them them play other things that are, maybe just play that thing over and over again. always do it in an interesting way, do it in an in interesting aalways guitar, playing a multi-instrumentalist, and I appreciate that too. The formula formula The too. that and Iappreciate he could fi gure out a way to do it and and fiit do could to he way a out gure piano and drums. He wrote string parts, makers, particularly being more attached to a song form but by the not equally chaotic, but similarly chaot- play with Nick Cave in the Bad Seeds. Seeds. Bad the in Cave Nick with play ic. They were a band who had a formula, if they ever did go out and play this stuff live. But live. on the you live record do hear bands did, but obviously in a quite dif- quite a in obviously but did, bands band, losing members and I don’t know other guys: Mick Harvey and Rowland Rowland and Harvey Mick guys: other genius of this band, in terms of this end reallyit got like this. And I think that the of of the reasons that Nick Cave kept him cockeyed way. And I am sure this is one other guys just did this weird sonic stuff. “,” and Mick Harvey AM: AM: you tell us a little bit about that pro- that about bit little a us tell you work, yet you did take those songs out 2002, the record called Saint the Fire Fire the Saint called record the 2002, for the last record that we put out in in out put we that record last the for Fire Show and some of your more more your of some and Show Fire that is pretty obvious, but when you you when but obvious, pretty is that the band then you started off with. Can Show. And we knew we were ending the how those tunes were done? Harvey and on some solo records that he was that we were about to go on tour tour on go to about were we that was the band was just dissolving. We always thing off and it’s really beautiful. the fi rst Nick Cave solo record called, called, record fisolo the Cave Nick rst tions in particular, and they are usually to the point that I can hear his contribu- thing about the Birthday Party. I’ve got that, not only with Nick Cave but with PJ SK-C: and when they knew that the band was while a for it in been had point that at had temporary help on the bass and the plays plays this amazing piano fi gure, just at my favorite things. There is a song on on song a is There things. favorite my has done. In some ways he is my favorite put him anywhere and he is going to do ist ist piano thing that just sets the whole in in some ways to the Birthday Party’s band. I was coming here to London and are left with two players to tour those and you did perform them with less of something good. And he continued to do capture the spirit and the energy of of energy the and spirit the capture cess? I mean, the recording process of similar been have might that of cess pro- studio the music, experimental drums but the guys that were with us us with were that guys the but drums of of head and it’s this really oblique, cub- certain points in the song. There is a sort shows, shows, how did you manage that and Now when you were doing the the doing were you when Now Well the story, to tell it very briefly, America—and they America—and had to take time off We to tried fi but nd noth- people, other from their jobs and potentially lose their Lenzi Lenzi and a I, about thought way to do Headrush pedals, which Headrush are these very we could have done. We could have just with with relative strangers. So we, Michael tinue beyond the tour so they just bolted. the drummer in Number One Cup, so he just play to pre-recorded stuff, which which stuff, pre-recorded to play just worth it wasn’t that decided they jobs, and just played along, but in both our our both in but along, played just and a couple of these. And, as And, of these. Ia couple mentioned rhythm sections from the recordings recordings the from sections rhythm hold up to 30 seconds. And we each took records—although he didn’t play most of in about two weeks. We didn’t want to want We didn’t weeks. two about in a was which us, of two the just with it con- to going wasn’t that band a for it ing seemed solid enough for us to feel for enough solid seemed ing long digital delay looping pedals and you lame. So we got a couple of these Akai breaking up and there was this tour tour this was there and up breaking bit of a crap shoot. We put it all together before, Michael conveniently used to be coming up—this 6 week tour of North North of tour week 6 up—this coming gotten the basic Pro Tools tracks of the comfortable going back out on the road can sample and hold a loop—they will will loop—they a hold and sample can pretty been have would that opinions could play all the drum parts from the the from parts drum all the play could

207 Seth Kim-Cohen 208 One Reason To Live the musical attention that way, so the the way,so that attention musical the two-bobbing-headed monster. So while wouldn’t both be moving as some sort of work work it the was system sound because part, most the for and tour this did we tonight slow little a shifts: tempo with the inconsistencies that playing live has, was created live. It was fraught with all the the song. When a change needed to be of part that performing guitars, the to this off by setting up the loop, heading to the first way. So we were able to pull this sort of Birthday Party-type way: the the to out PA,jump the through those them them on the recordings—and I can fake played live and the audience would see made we tried to work it out so that one most of the song and when there is a is there when and song the of most rhythm section does stay static through in a room wouldn’t be good enough to to enough good be wouldn’t room a in didn’t it When well. pretty worked it it on bass. We would start most of the the of most start would We bass. on it little little hitch in that loop so we’ll have to loops going with drums and bass, run run bass, and drums with going loops but the playing was. Everything was was Everything was. playing the but switching wasn’t really switching the main focus strument and initiate the change so we stays the second way, doesn’t go back back go way, doesn’t second the stays songs as the rhythm section and get the one was switching instruments the the other would try instruments to do something to switching draw was one deal with it.” Those kinds of things. So of Those things. it.” kinds with deal or a little fast Or tonight. “oh, there’s a hearing were they sound single every in- original the to back go would us of change, it’s a major change, and usually ourselves. Luckily the songs were built in guitars. And we would then accompany You know, it’s not easy. As Levon Helm Another reason is that my listening in- listening my that is reason Another AM: AM: with these art-punk bands, and then and bands, art-punk these with January. So the musical work you you work musical the So January. this different world of art? the initial loop loud enough to match the SK-C: and going out on to the road for 6 weeks. handle it. They wouldn’t be able to boost he says “it’s a goddamn impossible way into a van with four other sweaty guys a into sweaty van other four with moving into a more conceptual form form conceptual a more into moving but generally it worked. are doing now is much different in in different much is now doing are you recently and setting academic stuff that was playing live or vice versa, sible way of life. So that’s one reason. reason. one that’s So life. of way sible says says in the Last Waltz, the Band movie, curated a concert at Tate Modern in in Modern Tate at concert a curated very a into went and rock touring of of of music? Why were you attracted to working from happen, jump this did of life.” And it is. It’s a goddamn impos- one is that I can’t imagine getting back genre. genre. How has that translated? How Now you left that environment environment that left you Now I think there are a lot of reasons, I don’t have to co-ordinate my schedule AM: AM: I just said—but for the sake of conver- that, and I really feel bad that I just just I that bad feel really I and that, So when I finished one thing I didn’t see the same thing I had been doing, I’d try that I am interested in making good stuff tion or conceptualizing and then go to the tical to do work like this, where I can do what I could play in any given moment. terests have always been broader than with four unreliable guys who drink too are that if I am going to have something avenue of my tastes. That’s all the ideal- any reason just to find new people to do and the most pressing motivation is just and I don’t have to have a rehearsal rehearsal a have to have don’t I and auditorium on the night of the thing and have done in other contexts. happen in this kind of context as I hope I my work at home in terms of composi- of terms in home at work my much. So it’s a combination of things. I’d room room and I have to don’t pay that land- make it happen and then go back home istic reasons. The less idealistic reasons like to believe that the most important that like the to most important believe lord in addition to my home landlord and art-based musics—if you want to say to want you musics—if art-based something, try to explore some other other some explore to try something, of an academic life it is a little more prac- cerebral musics. Do you find that you earlier tastes, when you get into more more and conceptual more and ent sation, you didn’t outgrow any of your said that, I totally disagree with what So So as you have grown into differ- When When you come back to the Birthday Xenakis or Ligeti or Anthony Braxton or you you back to the reason that you liked your perspective on it really changed is what Because cares? hell the who first place had something to do with with do to something had place first very analytically which is sometimes just for its rock energy and its fun. fun. its and energy rock its for just Party with your different brain, has has brain, different your with Party music this at look can you Because like this, like when people try to dis- to try people when like this, like whoever whoever else you think of as intellectu- this music is as conceptually interest- conceptually as is music this ally interesting. And in some ways I feel SK-C: mous mous really. The reason I liked it in the ing and as intellectually interesting as interesting as intellectually and ing me To brain. my with engagement its it in the first place? ing on his guitar and shaking his hips fun really about it is that he is stand- music kills really and boring really mindset or do you leave that mindset like there is something in the aesthetic and it’s making this really great noise. Party Birthday the enjoy just and or do you just turn it on and it takes takes it and on it turn just you do or go back to the Birthday Party with that sition context. It is very interesting but sect Sonic Youth in a classical compo- Well the two things are synony- are things two the Well

209 Seth Kim-Cohen 210 One Reason To Live I’m one of them, them, of one I’m I is there tell you can Anyway, you take these people and you But there is no way that they can agree try to come up with a song or something” with which they are working—you know, the idea of four people who have maybe these other kinds of music. I think that at a score and say “oh, look, that’s where as to what that thing is. They can’t look and they, hopefully with a sort of curious a less-schooled grasp of the material material the of grasp less-schooled a put them in a room and you say, “let’s say,“let’s you and room a in them put probably can’t explain it and so on—and fi of but circle fths, the of heard have a have music, read can’t with, played well, people, at least the people I have pitch relations and rhythms. And these defiis it way the of terms in music ned very limited grasp of theory, maybe they in the Western Academy: harmonies and listening practice and a general curiosity something called the circle of fifths, but I dealing with music and make something. of the world put together their ways of definitely don’t understand how it works. in unequalled that’s band rock the of You know I’ve been with band mates mates band with been I’ve know You And And I love that. I think that’s an incred- the listener. But I think that happens in that’s really interesting in a way that you themselves, or so it sounds. And I think the Birthday Party for the Birthday Party. take some of the control out of the com- techniques, compositional of kind tain the listener in this position of having to tening back to it. And they have to agree tonal cluster,” they don’t have the vocab- are are in no more privileged position than composer the and player the then and rock anyway. Rock is aleatory by design poser’s hands, and maybe even the play- in cer- it in ways get you Maybe music. playing it and then the experience of lis- of experience the on rely just to have ible, weird sort of democracy and it puts it goes from that note” or “look at that at “look or note” that from goes it is they do. And often they don’t agree. agree. don’t they do. often And is they Goodness Goodness knows they couldn’t do it for love being the one who has to sort out sort to has who one the being love like aleatory techniques which try to to try which techniques aleatory like between the members of the group. I group. the of members the between disagreement this of mediator the be ulary. They don’t have the skills. So they sense sense to me. That’s not the song I play. no makes that way a in else someone or by the nature of its…. ers’ hands and let events just happen happen just events let and hands ers’ classical traditional in get quite don’t of mine, who have explained a song toa song explained have who of mine, ence in terms of trying to define what it experi- of kind ambiguous very that on A AM: was was probably thinking about his own very heavy on Nick Cave and at the the at and Cave Nick on heavy very three or four players getting it togeth- tion, the so-called democracy between like he spent ten more days working he working ten like days more spent sounds it know, You Nick. on heavy But I didn’t invent these kinds of argu- of kinds these But I invent didn’t tracks had to be separated from the the from separated be to had tracks time time on it. But if you took the band out, that is the reality that he did spend more piece with the Birthday Party seems Birthday the with piece about is the band. If, over time, the vocal SK-C: about rock music that I think are totally SK-C: and people, think like this and make make and this like think people, and of Youth,Sonic analysis they yeah, are music tracks, I would definitely take the people would hear it that way and maybe ments that are somewhat intellectual intellectual somewhat are that ments ments. Great writers like Greil Marcus Marcus Greil like writers Great ments. somehow. point the missing probably music is really important to me, really really me, to important really is music musico- conventional or lines poetic it would suck. And what I get excited excited get I what And suck. would it it. Like if someone tries to do a harmonic important to me. logical lines. This kind of thinking about cinating. So, obviously I can make argu- on this tune than anyone else did. he knows, who band—and the of end this But something. creating and er excites you about this is the collabora- credible. credible. I don’t think that I am forcing of Bob Dylan or whoever, and not along great arguments about the importance stuff at this time—it’s obviously very very obviously time—it’s this at stuff M :

It’s interesting that one thing that Inability? Yeah, and I think probably a lot of Yeah, and to me that’s really fas- “I’m just going to make that, and it’s cool.” You can maybe bend the neck a little to At one point the vocal goes away and all you hear that weird little chiming, and and chiming, little weird that hear you line, bass the against that, is hear, you that’s really interesting to me. I mean mean Ime. to interesting really that’s all that’s and away go noises other the that’s just going to be my contribution.” tar and you can’t manipulate them, you whoever. But whoever is doing it, that is that. is playing whoever I know if don’t instru- that of design the wasn’t that the bridge—I don’t know which it is—but that is scraping above the nut or below just making these completely uncontrol- all they play throughout the whole song, making and maybe from a musicological is bass the center tonal the to relative monic analysis of what those tones are, har- interesting an do could you maybe ment, you know. And that’s all know. he does, you that’s And ment, music tracks. I want to hear that guitar it is Blixa Bargeld or Rowland Howard or lable tones that are just there on the gui- standpoint that would be interesting. get get a out of little wobble it. “Andweird can’t change them by fretting differently. guitar-makers never that wanted you bits to play, chimey weird those getting

211 Seth Kim-Cohen 212 One Reason To Live AM: AM: think there are probably a number of tech- common very a It’s bridge. the lation. Let’s look at the beginning. the guitar either above the nut on the head- pletely different. Why don’t we actu- we don’t Why different. pletely people have realized that there is just SK-C: it sounds like the bass guitar is dropped Giving all his material in the first five minutes minutes and then making a piece out be just might It sections. interesting no point to it, because it’s not the point in luckily,nique all But, of his music. blood-curdling scream by Nick Cave and ally ally take this piece apart a little bit. I stock or below the bridge of the guitar. of it. Like everything is there. com- is gesture The gesture. the of on the tones that are created when the ecki music. We rarely do any analysis on the floor. And then that first chime of good to look at a couple of those in iso- strings bow between the tail piece and I mean it’s exactly like Stockhausen. But probably not. Just like Pender- Right at the beginning, there’s this That’s where the show should always always should show the where That’s The whole thing is going kzzzzzz like a like kzzzzzz going is thing The whole The rest of it, he’s kind of strumming in AM: AM: AM: AM: three, three, four…” later or if he was doing two, the “one, if he there overdubbed then he screams and there is all this this all is there and screams he then tion is the one leading into one of the the of one into leading one the is tion that’s awesome.” Another awesome sec- SK-C: SK-C: SK-C: SK-C: a way. But on those, it’s just two distinct nobody pays any attention to it. And And it. to attention any pays nobody of sort voices the of one and in, kicks that he notes on plays there. the guitar notes. They sound to me like a fi a like me to sound They notes. ssure, verses where this cacophony of voices voices of cacophony this where verses in of their own volition. it live with the band and they just kind like cracks splattering through a pane pane a through splattering cracks like counts in, “one, two, three, four…” and four…” three, two, in, “one, counts of gave him the bird and kept rocking. other stuff going on, but the band comes end, with someone just going “man. “man. going just someone with end, crack through ice. I love it. of glass or through a bone or something. It’s just like Stockhausen! (Laughs.) That’s awesome. Of course we have to wonder wonder to have we course Of That’s where the show should end. Yeah, that’s pretty much true. I especially like those fi those two like rst especially I “one, two, three, four…” and then does does then and four…” three, two, “one, There is a sense of humor with this music Australia to London in the early 80s. AM: AM: AM: with the percussion: the bass and and bass the percussion: the with vious when he took this group from from group this took he when vious there at one point, that’s doubling the titude that is being which presented, bass bass line for a while, almost like a re- independently up mic’d either bals that the few weren’t just the tip of the of tip the just weren’t few the that think they were disappointed to find out that were doing things in this vein. But I like-minded a in arrive to going were this scream like “yeah, let’s go, man” man” go, let’s “yeah, like scream this tain expectations of things, like that: that: like things, of expectations tain too. I mean, there is an obvious sense sense obvious an is there Itoo. mean, SK-C: SK-C: SK-C: and and nobody goes and he’s left hanging. a way. I like that. in self-referential is that humor a and a sense of humor, where there are cer- are there where humor, of sense a him. And I find that a kind of dark humor iceberg, they were the iceberg. ing. And there is a piano brought in in brought piano a is there And ing. ob- painfully made been have must ally aggressive blues line. It’s just this scene, because there were a few bands constant mixing pot mixing constant of these jaggedy resonat- hit, being metal of chunks big distorted, and later recorded or counting in and no one comes in with with in comes one no and in counting of some of his themes, but there is also of humor with the sort of cartoonyness snare drum, nothing else. The cym- The else. nothing drum, snare It’s great hearing what they did did they what hearing great It’s Yeah, it’s self-aware of the at- the of self-aware it’s Yeah, And I love that, that he counts counts he that that, love I And Well, I think they thought they they thought they think I Well, Very elegantly put together, I think, in voices yelling at each other and egg- and other each at yelling voices or- has he how of aware very viously takes a lot of effort to put together that to sound un-put together, you know. It the have to ways, disparate in go to ob- is he And itself. doubling is then be able to put all these things together, them and just a commentary on the the on commentary a just and them SK-C: SK-C: recognize that?!” ness and order. They are probably just just probably They are order. and ness human need for organization and tight- around experiencing were they music its like its a like on commentary, the probably refrain. It is fantastically put together on suddenly and then other ing each many ways. The way that the voice is big mess out there, don’t you guys guys you don’t there, out mess big saying something like “it’s just all a all just “it’s like something saying congealed together, singing the same to will, you if it, of arc the organised completely on it’s own for so long and edges of sound that all come together. ganised the language and how he has sort of chaos. And I think it says something, something, says it think I And

213 Seth Kim-Cohen