The American Fighter Aces Association Oral Interviews The Museum of Flight Seattle, Washington Charles H. Older (Part 2 of 2) Interviewed by: Eugene A. Valencia Interview Date: circa 1960s 2 Abstract: In this two-part oral history, fighter ace Charles H. Older is interviewed about his military service during World War II. In part two, he continues to describe his experiences as a fighter pilot with the American Volunteer Group and the United States Army Air Forces in the China- India-Burma Theater. Topics discussed include his aerial victories and notable encounters with Japanese forces during his combat tours. He also touches on his postwar career as a lawyer and his service in the Air Force Reserve. The interview is conducted by fellow fighter ace Eugene A. Valencia. Biography: Charles H. Older was born on September 29, 1917 in Hanford, California. He joined the United States Marine Corps as an Aviation Cadet and completed his flight training in 1940. Initially assigned to Marine Fighting Squadron 1 (VMF-1), Older opted to resign his commission in order to join the American Volunteer Group, then forming in Burma. He served with the AVG until the group disbanded in July 1942, after which he returned to the U.S. and joined the Army Air Forces. For his second combat tour, Older returned to China and served as group operations officer and deputy commander of the 23rd Fighter Group. After the end of World War II, Older joined the Air Force Reserve and went on to serve with the 452nd Bomb Wing during the Korean War. As a civilian, he pursued a law career and in 1967 became a superior court judge in Los Angles, California. In the early 1970s, he served as the presiding judge in the Charles Mason trial. Older passed away in 2006. Biographical information courtesy of: Boyce, Ward J., ed., American fighter aces album. Mesa, Ariz: American Fighter Aces Association, 1996. Restrictions: Permission to publish material from the American Fighter Aces Association Oral Interviews must be obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives. Transcript: Transcribed by Pioneer Transcription Services 3 Index: Thoughts on Japanese aircraft ......................................................................................................... 4 First encounter with Japanese forces .............................................................................................. 4 Other encounters and aerial victories .............................................................................................. 5 American Volunteer Group reunions .............................................................................................. 7 Post-war career and personal life .................................................................................................... 8 More on aerial victories and aerial tactics ...................................................................................... 9 Operational logistics with the AVG and other notable missions .................................................... 9 Thoughts on fighter pilots ............................................................................................................. 12 General Claire Lee Chennault ....................................................................................................... 13 Typical duty day ........................................................................................................................... 13 AVG record and legacy ................................................................................................................ 14 Brief overview of service in Korea ............................................................................................... 15 4 Charles H. Older (Part 2 of 2) [START OF INTERVIEW] 00:00:00 [Thoughts on Japanese aircraft] EUGENE A. VALENCIA: I was going to ask what enemy aircraft caused you the most concern. From your experience, I guess all of them. In the P-40, Chuck, what particular plane…? CHARELS H. OLDER: Oh… EAV: If you met them on equal terms? CHO: I’d say the Oscar or the Zeke [unintelligible 00:00:24]. They were their standard fighters at that time. EAV: And they were the same type, basically, that you encountered when you came back in the 51? CHO: Yes. They, of course, had advanced their—probably had more power. EAV: Did you run into any Jacks or Georges or— CHO: Yeah, we ran into Jacks and, last part of 1944, 1945, also the Tojo, which was a— EAV: Yeah. CHO: …looked a little bit like a Jug. EAV: Something came up yesterday. Bob DeHaven mentioned that he had a number of encounters with the Cherry Blossom Squadron. That’s the first time I’ve heard the reference. CHO: I’ve never heard of that before. [First encounter with Japanese forces] EAV: I hadn’t either, Chuck. Do you recall any particular event concerning your aerial victories that you recall more than the others? CHO: Well, my first combat was at Rangoon on a day when I was not even on duty. Another fellow, Ed Overend, and I were off that day. We heard the—first thing we heard were the Buffalo scrambling off of Mingaladon, which was the RAF base there where we were stationed. And we heard the 40s going off. We figured something was up. Had no idea what. We were just 5 getting ready to go into town, so we grabbed a couple of bikes and rode down to the field to see what was cooking. There was nobody around, but there were two 40s sitting on the field there. They looked all right. I said, “Ed—” I said to Ed, “Let’s climb in and get going.” He said, “All right, fine.” So we cranked them up and roared off, not knowing exactly where we were going but figuring we could tag up with somebody. We finally picked up a flight of 40s climbing to the east, and when we got up about 9,000 feet east of Rangoon, for the first time I saw the Japs. They were coming in from the east. There were 60 bombers in a “V of V” formation and about 25 or 30 fighters up behind them, way up, probably 3,000 or 4,000 feet and back a mile or so. So we started making underneath passes on the bombers and keeping our eyes on the fighters. After about my third pass, I got the leader of the 60-plane formation. He just blew right up. The bottom blew right out of the thing. And the thing that interested me about that was, apart of getting out of the way of the debris, was that as soon as he started to go down, the number-two man just slid right over and took the lead with no delay at all and they continued right on their run. And they never did break their formation, although a number of them were shot down out of that formation. They were very well disciplined. EAV: And when you two attacked, you were against the whole incoming flight? CHO: We had, I think, 13 or 14 planes in the air that day. That was all we had. And two flights. The flight that Ed and I joined on had about seven airplanes in it when we—including us. EAV: How many did you get that day, Chuck? CHO: I got two that day. One other bomber. [Other encounters and aerial victories] EAV: Was that your biggest tally in one flight? 00:04:38 CHO: No, I got three on two different days. And the next raid was—that was on the 23rd of December 1941. Then the Japs announced on the radio that night that they were coming back on Christmas Day, two days later, and leave us some presents. EAV: Is that right? CHO: So we had 15 planes, as I recall, ready that day. They came in this time with 110 bombers and, oh, 30, 40 more fighters in two formations: one over the city and the other one 6 over Mingaladon. Incidentally, we lost two pilots on that first mission and, oh, three or four airplanes. EAV: Were they lost to fighters or bomber [unintelligible 00:05:34]? CHO: Both lost to bombers, as I recall it. EAV: Is that right? CHO: Yeah, the Japs could put out a pretty murderous crossfire from those bombers when you were coming in in a big V of V like that. And one of the reasons we attacked from underneath was to avoid the fire. But you had to make a—had to dive down, make a—practically a vertical approach up to this—as much as you could, to stay out of—stay below the angle of their lower guns. EAV: That’s interesting, Chuck. CHO: But anyway, on Christmas Day we were a little better organized, and we didn’t lose anybody. And we got 25 of them, so we were— EAV: Is that right? CHO: …in pretty good shape that day. EAV: Gee, that’s great. The ordnance you used were 50-calibers in the 40s? CHO: The 40 had two 50s and four 30s. EAV: Two 50s and four 30s. CHO: Hm-hmm [affirmative]. EAV: That was the early model? That was the B? CHO: That was the B. EAV: Chuck, were you ever shot down? CHO: No. EAV: Do you recall any other events, say, when you came back the second time? Of course, that 17 January raid, I think, is probably one of the greatest. 00:06:53 CHO: Well, I think probably the mission that impressed me most the second time, outside of that Shanghai strike, was one that we ran in December of 1944. And it was a coordinated effort 7 of the entire Fourteen Air Force, and it was more airplanes than I’d ever seen in the air at any one time in China. It started about 11:00 in the morning. The target was Hankou and also [Wuchang?], which is across the river from Hankou. Hankou is the big Yangtze River port in central China, and it was also the—had more concentration of air power in the Hankou area probably at that time than anywhere else in China. The Japanese, I mean. This was a coordinated raid that extended over several hours, included the B-29s, the B-24s, B-25s, Chinese-American composite wings flying 25s and also fighters, included the 51s, P-47s from Jack Chennault’s outfit in North China. Everything they could get in the air that day was over Hankou or [Wuchang?]. EAV: I’ll be darned. CHO: And you really felt like you were on the winning side for a change.