This Is a Complete Transcript of the Oral History Interview with John C

This is a complete transcript of the oral history interview with John C. Chin (CN 206, T1) for the Billy Graham Center Archives. No spoken words which were recorded are omitted. In a very few cases, the transcribers could not understand what was said, in which case “[unclear]” was inserted. If the transcribers were not completely sure that they had the words correctly, a “[?]” was inserted. So, grunts and verbal hesitations such as "ah" or "um" are usually omitted. Readers of this transcript should remember that this is a transcript of spoken English, which follows a different rhythm and even rule than written English.

. . . Three dots indicate an interruption or break in the train of thought within the sentence of the speaker.

. . . . Four dots indicate what the transcriber believes to be the end of an incomplete sentence.

( ) Word in parentheses are asides made by the speaker.

[ ] Words in brackets are comments made by the transcriber.

This transcript was created by Bob Shuster and Paul Bartow and was completed in November 2019

Please note: This oral history interview expresses the personal memories and opinions of the interviewee and does not necessarily represent the views or policies of the Billy Graham Center Archives or Wheaton College.

© 2018. The Billy Graham Center Archives. All rights reserved. This transcript may be reused with the following publication credit: Used by permission of the Billy Graham Center Archives, Wheaton College, Wheaton, IL. BGC Archives CN 206, T1 Transcript - Page 2

Collection 206, Tape 1. Oral history interview with John C. Chin by Galen Wilson on March 3, 1982.

WILSON: This is March the 3rd, 1982. We are here in the Billy Graham Center Archives with Dr. John Chin, who is MD [doctor] practicing in this area now, who grew up in China, and we are going to discuss with him his experiences of China and the church and the mission, etcetera, etcetera. Dr. Chin, the first thing I would like you to talk about is your birth, where you were born, when, your parents, your family in general.

CHIN: Okay. Well, I was born in Kaifeng, Honan Province, China. And I born in…in 1911.

WILSON: And month and day?

CHIN: And 6th of April.

WILSON: And your parents were...?

CHIN: Yes, there were...I was born in a Christian family.

WILSON: Uh-huh. What were your parents’ names?

CHIN: My father=s name is Yung-hao.

WILSON: Now how do I spell that?

CHIN: Y-U-N-G.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: H-A-O in Chinese way.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: And my mother=s family name is Yin. Y-I-N Shin-yi. Shin, So, the old way to pronounce it. I mean, the spelling is S-H-I-N. I guess that=s….

WILSON: Okay.

CHIN: Yeah. Yi is Y-I.

WILSON: Y-I?

CHIN: Yeah.

WILSON: All right. And you said you were born into a Christian home.

CHIN: Yeah.

WILSON: Had your parents grown up as Christians?

CHIN: No, they believed in the other period of time. Yeah. They converted.

WILSON: Did…. What were...what was the circumstance…

CHIN: Well, I….

WILSON: …of their coming to the Lord?

CHIN: I think this through the CIM, you know, the China Inland Mission workers, I guess.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Not the…. I don=t necessarily, you know, the western missionaries, but some Chinese workers…

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: …in that way.

WILSON: …So, it was fellow Chinese who led your parents to Christ?

CHIN: Chinese. Yeah. That=s right.

WILSON: Your grandparents, did they...?

CHIN: No, I don=t know, but I don=t think that they believed.

WILSON: You never knew your grandparents?

CHIN: No. Yeah.

WILSON: Uh-huh. Do you have brothers and sisters?

CHIN: Yes. By the way, I…my name is Chung-An in Chinese.

WILSON: Right. Now spell…spell that for me.

CHIN: C-H-U-N-G.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: A-N. And Chung is actually the…the second one. Middle one. [Laughs] Well, I have many elder brother that means, yeah.

WILSON: Uh-huh. How did you acquire the name John then?

CHIN: Why, because my Chinese name is Chung-An, and [for] western friends its rather not so, easy to pronounce correctly. Chung-An.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: ..So, they heard my name in Chinese, and they said something quite similar, you know, put together. You know, then is like John, quite similar. ..So, they call me John instead of calling me Chung-an.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: In that way, then I also, use that. It was nice to use that name too.

WILSON: The...when did you first start using the name John?

CHIN: Oh, it quite a number of years.

WILSON: While you were still in China?

CHIN: Yes. Yeah.

WILSON: Was it advantageous to use a western...?

CHIN: Well, it was because I had…I had many chance to talk, you know, make the friends with the western missionaries, you know, so forth.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: So....

WILSON: Now from the time you were a boy, did you attend mission schools?

CHIN: No, it=s a public school….

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: …but I attended the CIM church/Sunday school, I guess so.

WILSON: Uh-huh. The public schools were run by...?

CHIN: By, you know, the local government….

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: …and so forth, yes.

WILSON: Now, this would have been...you would have been a schoolboy during the Nationalist period, wouldn’t you have been?

CHIN: Yes, that time is...only the Nationalists.

WILSON: Uh-huh. Where exactly is Kaifeng?

CHIN: Kaifeng.

WILSON: Now where…where exactly is that in China?

CHIN: That=s in the northern part of China. Chung-zhou. And we actually…we say that Kaifeng is the middle, you know center of the whole China. So, the original name for that town or that city is Zhong-zhou. Zhong-zhou means the middle part of China.

WILSON: Is it a large town?

CHIN: I think it is now quite sizable a town. But when I was young, I lived there, it=s about 300,000…

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: …population. That is, you know way back, about thirty…thirty years ago.

WILSON: That’s still a large town to some of us.

CHIN: Yeah. That=s right [laughs]. But that was, Kaifeng was…usually was the capital of Honan Province.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Yeah, Honan Province means the Yellow River…

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: …just passed through the Honan Province.

WILSON: Alright.

CHIN: Yeah.

WILSON: When you were growing up, did you think that Christianity was something that was indigenous to your area? I mean...had Christianity become a…a Chinese religion or was it still considered a foreign import, a missionary endeavor?

CHIN: I…I remember it that my young, you know, my young period of time, I think that people, Chinese people, looked at the Christian church or Christianity as foreign.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: However, in connection with the CIM mission work, they always emphasized the, you know, to…to make the church to the indigenous, the Chinese…

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: …not the foreigners.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: So, CIM is perhaps on that score, might be far advanced.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: For instance, I give you, one...if any Chinese evangelist, you know, if one church or group want to have you know...

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: …then they should pay their own salary, they emphasized. Unless there is some situation in special cases there might be, they might be some subsidized. But they always insist that you have to pay your own, you know, your evangelist salary by your Chinese Christians.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: ...So, there is something, you know, they wanted to make, you know. Not only those people who look at this, but also, the evangelist.

WILSON: Right.

CHIN: That way the CIM did a good job on this…

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: …not from the [laughs] you know the foreign missions.

WILSON: Uh-huh. How big was the CIM church in Kaifeng?

CHIN: They had several places in Kaifeng. And the….

WILSON: Several churches?

CHIN: Yes, you know the whole Honan Province.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Well, not too big. Might be 150, 200 I think as the membership is concerned.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: But there are several places in the Kaifeng area.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Actually, the...the China Inland Missions works not to build the really big churches. They rather spread out…

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: …you know. City as Well, as rural area. You know, they...they.... I should mention a little bit…. China Inland Mission headquarters was in Kaifeng. That’s the inland [the interior]. All other missions more or less on the coast.

WILSON: Right.

CHIN: And along the railways….

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: …and So forth. But the CIM, they…they wanted to, you know, work in those remote. In…inland.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: That=s what mission name means. Inland.

WILSON: Right.

CHIN: Yeah.

WILSON: Were there any other missions that were working in the Kaifeng area?

CHIN: Oh yes. There are, it=s called [unclear] missions.

WILSON: The who?

CHIN: Yes. And Presbyterians, Baptists, yeah, they have quite.... Also, Lutherans.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Yes. There was quite a number of mission groups. Also, Free Methodists.

WILSON: Did the...the missionaries that worked there, the…the western missionaries, what...what was their mode of working? What kind of work did they do toward evangelization? Was it mainly in education or...I guess it=s a wide open question.

CHIN: Oh yes. This...always at the very beginning, no matter what mission, directly…did directly the evangelist work.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Then along the side, then they have the medical missionary work. Like the CIM had a hospital in Kaifeng.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: And I don=t think the CIM had any school, but other missions had the schools. Primary school, middle school.

WILSON: Uh-huh. Did you first get interested in medicine through the CIM?

CHIN: No, I was just in the government, regular high school. I graduated there and then I entered into the medical school.

WILSON: Uh-huh. Now the...the information that I got from the church bulletin…

CHIN: Yes.

WILSON: …said that you had...you knew Watchman Nee.

CHIN: Yes, when I was in college….

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: …medical school, I had the chance to, you know, to know him, acquainted with him. I think at that time, he just started the work, the evangelical work, I guess.

WILSON: Now that would have been about what date?

CHIN: ‘30s. Yeah, middle of the ‘30s.

WILSON: Uh-huh. What...do you remember any specific remembrances that you have of him?

CHIN: Well, he was, at that time he was quite young. I think he…he was not too old.

WILSON: I think he was born in 1903.

CHIN: Yeah, somehow about a little bit older than me anyways. But he just started, you know, the evangelical work. At the beginning, his way of approaching the people is through the whole meeting.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: And I really don=t know what was his...you know his secular job background. Where he…he...he converted not the...at a young age.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: I think he was already an adult, if I am not wrong.

WILSON: Say that again?

CHIN: I think that he...he was born in the Fukien, that’s -the southern part of China.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Perhaps he worked in the government job or something anyway. So, through his career, he’s the one...happened to know some officers in the government.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: That was the channel you know, from one person to the other person.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Like then. So, he get...you know...is not really from any big town. There are government and officers, they were all religious Christians [?]. Then through them, he came to a certain town called.... I first met him at Kaifeng, that=s my home town.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: And the first time I met at one of the officers of the provincial government, the officer=s

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: And at that time his name, his Chinese name is Ni [Shu-tsu]. You know, I might [unclear]. And actually, they were already Christians.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: And it=s also, her...the wife is...the sister I think of one of the outstanding Christians in China, it’s Ni. He is the officer. So, we meet at his home, and here is Watchman Nee.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: And we have the meetings about five or six days, we…every evening. Then through them, they invited their friends, the top officers. Then also invited some Christians. Of course, I was already Christian.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: But he invited some Christian students.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Because at that time, I was chairman of the...this Christian Fellowship at the University.

WILSON: Okay now what university is that?

CHIN: That=s the Honan Provincial University.

WILSON: Okay.

CHIN: Actually, I organized that group. That was, you know….

WILSON: The Student Christian Fellowship?

CHIN: Yes. That was not popular at that time, you know, in China.

WILSON: Oh, no it wouldn’t have been.

CHIN: Yeah, So, that=s the ‘30s. My group was…was one of the first few, I guess. So, this officer, you know, of course I had met him before I had met I met Watchman Nee. So, he knew my name, So, he invited me and asked me to bring some, you know, students.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: So, I…I just...you know...brought along some non-Christians as Well, as some Christian friends. So, that=s the first time I met. Then he...Watchman Nee, it might be once a year or sometimes twice came to...you know [unclear]. Big talk So, we met quite often…

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: …in that period of time.

WILSON: Would he preach at those meetings?

CHIN: Oh yes.

WILSON: And what was his preaching like? What was his style?

CHIN: Well, its…Well, for this…because this group is all the mostly Christian, So, rather it is the Christian life you know against the background of the Chinese social life and So, forth.

WILSON: Did the success of his movement, if you will…

CHIN: Uh-huh.

WILSON: …largely depend on his personal charisma?

CHIN: Well, I think so. However, his organizing very well. And his…also his way of the evangelical movement is also, changing. [Unclear] or So, first changed at the very beginning and then somehow, they changed it and So forth. As I said, first thing he contacted the people and preached the Gospel through the home meeting. But later, you know, in some cities the groups getting larger, he organized into some more groups.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Then also, they...were first officers himself [sic] trained a certain person to carry…carry on this job.

WILSON: Kind of as elder in the church?

CHIN: Yeah.

WILSON: Okay.

CHIN: So, then, you know at the very beginning, he didn’t…he didn’t leave his home. But a few years later, he organized big meetings in the street and, you know, they have the jacket or something, all those members of his group.

WILSON: A jacket?

CHIN: Yeah, white with Chinese characters in back.

WILSON: What would it say?

CHIN: What? It say, AI am sinner.@ Yeah. In the big, you know white, white coat you know.

WILSON: White for mourning…

CHIN: No.

WILSON: …or just white?

CHIN: In color, the Chinese letters.

WILSON: Yeah, but I was asking was the white supposed to symbolize mourning or grief?

CHIN: Well, not necessarily. I don’t think so.

WILSON: Okay:

CHIN: That’s just something, you know, if fifty or hundred people are all going to see him, they [unclear] just hand it out. A pamphlet or little pamphlet or something like that. That=s later development.

WILSON: Uh-huh. Now is that what got him in trouble?

CHIN: Not because of that. No, the government [unclear] not say anything about that.

WILSON: How did you view his theology?

CHIN: Well, it=s...[unclear] I don=t think that he really had some, you know, formal, you know, theological training.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: His basic knowledge or theological knowledge is more or less through a friends group from England.

CHIN: Uh-huh.

WILSON: I think he was converted to Christianity through their work.

CHIN: Uh-huh.

WILSON: His name is Simpson. That’s one of the leaders.

WILSON: An English fellow?

CHIN: English fellow, yeah.

WILSON: In England or in China?

CHIN: England. England. Well, in China. He came to China.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Through him, I think, he, you know, contacted Christianity first, I guess.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: So, that=s his background, you know, from them.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: [Unclear] is something you know a little bit different than the very, you know established…

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN:…theology. Of course he also, changed some kind of the interpretations. That=s something he is Chinese. Or rather, he was Chinese. So, from his own study he somehow interpreted a certain...you know Bible verses

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: …that, in a way, that Chinese could understand them, you know, more easily…

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: …in that way. So, this is something coming out indigenous church. This not only…now you=re talking about the self-propagating, self-governing, self-supporting, something that. [The Three Self Movement]

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: But really indigenous church, must be…have an indigenous theology.

WILSON: An indigenous what?

CHIN: Theology.

WILSON: Oh, theology. Got it. Uh-huh. Now do you remember any of the specific instances where he would interpret a Bible verse? What I heard you saying was in a way that was very different from what the missionaries= idea had been. Can you remember any of the verses in particular?

CHIN: I cannot remind now. It’s just…but I know that there’s some books, you know, by Watchman Nee is, you know, are translated into English.

WILSON: Right, in fact we have some here in the Center.

CHIN: Yeah, So, if you look at it, there might be some differences.

WILSON: Uh-huh. So, did this put him on the outs with…with other Christian groups?

CHIN: That=s right, they more isolated themselves.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: They called themselves Little Flock.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: That=s from the Bible, too, you know? So, they called themselves Little Flock. They don=t use any church, that…that name.

WILSON: Uh-huh. And they didn’t use a church building, is that the deal?

CHIN: Well, they have, but they don=t call it a church.

WILSON: Okay.

CHIN: The church in Chinese is a jiaohui. They never called themselves, they rather said praise of Little Flock. Or Little Flock=s meeting place. That=s all.

WILSON: Uh-huh. What did you...what did you think about the whole Little Flock movement as you watched it progress?

CHIN: Well, it=s…well, there the theology now is quite different from the traditional church.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Traditional theology, rather. But however, at that time, I don=t see any...not too much big difference.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: When I was young.

WILSON: Alright. When was the last time you saw him?

CHIN: That was during the war. And almost the close of the Second World War.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: In Szechwan, that=s the west…the west part of China.

WILSON: What were you both doing out there?

CHIN: You know at that time, we didn’t work directly in the work But then he still supported those evangelists when he….

WILSON: Uh-huh. Alrighty. Through the years that you had contact with him, we=re talking about maybe fourteen, fifteen years?

CHIN: Well, I think so. I think so.

WILSON: Did you observe any change in him personally in his attitudes and outlooks and philosophies and...?

CHIN: Well, I don=t think that he ever really lost his faith. But he had a reason why he stopped preaching for a while…

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: …you know? Though he supported.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: the other workers. What he said…. You know it=s a very hard time during the war, you know.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: He thought, “I...,” this is what he said: AI have my obligation to support those there, you know, the workers.@ They never say ‘the preachers,’ you know.”

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: “And how I can support…?” You know, left everything, you know, in the occupied area…in the Japanese.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: “So, I thought this one way, you know, should do something to get some money...”

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: “And, you know, support their work.”

WILSON: So, what…what was he doing out there?

CHIN: He had two companies, manufacturers. And he was the manager of this two factories.

WILSON: Uh-huh. What did they produce? Do you remember?

CHIN: Well, besides the common drugs, you know, he first introduced vitamin…Vitamin K That’s for the bleeding and also, penicillin. . Obviously, they couldn’t make, you know, the penicillin at that time, but rather, he kept the [unclear ]the penicillin from the United States. Then [unclear].

WILSON: Repackaging.

CHIN: And make the [unclear] and so forth. And he had some friends who are...were Christians in customs too.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Also, the Air Force, especially those Tigers, Flying Tigers, have you ever heard them? [A group of American volunteer pilots who flew for the Chinese army before America entered the war]

WILSON: No, no.

CHIN: Chennault, General [Claire Lee] Chennault, that was the American. His wife is Chinese. At the time he had a volunteer air…air force. Mainly for transportation. So, bring all the, you know, drugs or any...of course is used by government, I think there is a Flying Tigers still, you know, a freighter airplane, you know, cargo plane. Still they are up [in business. The Flying Tigers Line was bought by Federal Express in 1988.]. So, he had to be convenience to bring some new drugs in.

WILSON: Uh-huh. You yourself were never involved with the Little Flock, were you?

CHIN: No, I know most of those were top people but I ...because I a medical doctor, I had my own jobs. I never...but…

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: …we knew each other very…very well, even after the war and even in Taiwa,…. So, I….

WILSON: Now he never left China, did he?

CHIN: No.

WILSON: Mainland China.

CHIN: After Japan surrendered, he went back to Shanghai.

WILSON: Uh-huh. And then was arrested from…from there?

CHIN: No, at that time then he restarted.

WILSON: Uh-huh. Well, I think it was...yeah, 1952 that he was arrested.

CHIN: Yeah, I think so. That=s not...just Communist took, you know, yeah, that’s right. ‘52 You know, Japan surrendered in >45, right?

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Was that >45?

WILSON: Yeah.

CHIN: So, only about six, seven years. Then he went back to Shanghai from Szechwan. And he had preached again, and his slogan was, “Com…complete offering,” in Chinese. I translate that. Just, you know, So, well, I don=t know exactly how much money, but it=s quite an amount of money he made during the war.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: So, he, you know, offered all this...contributed all of the money. And also, some other Christians in his group also, offered money.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: That=s before the Communists took over, you know. Then, they organized a kind of...this board, like that, how to use this money. So, they...I think they...they started to invest in textiles, drugs, and all the factories of industry. So, they had quite the number of factories in Shanghai area …

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: …and in Hong Kong or Singapore.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Then Taiwan became part of the China, then also, in Taiwan. And all these factories still going on. So, its…now the Little Flock is no longer little. It=s bigger [laughs]. And now there are elders. They…they control the local church groups. Control the vision…

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: …their visions.

WILSON: I want to...to back up here a little bit now and ask you about...let=s see, you would have been, what, sixteen, during the 1927 uprising, is that the right word? What effect did that have in the Kaifeng area?

CHIN: You mean...1920s or...?

WILSON: Wasn’t it in 1927 that the Communists...?

CHIN: No, not >27. That=s after war over.

WILSON: Well, no, there was an uprising...maybe it wasn’t Communist, but there was a real crisis point in China missions in 1927.

CHIN: Oh, I see. Anti-Christian movement.

WILSON: There we go.

CHIN: That=s right. That=s the stuff in Peking.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: I say among the current Chinese...I mean the Chinese university or college students was the…. I think that was the speaker from England. [George] Bernard Shaw, isn’t he an atheistic philosopher?

WILSON: Yeah. What did he have to do with this, now?

CHIN: He gave the lectures in Peking.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: And he might criticize about the Christian faith. Or openly or privately. Anyhow, that=s one of the elements. So, I cannot remember all of this. I didn’t pay too much attention. But I

© 2019. The Billy Graham Center Archives. All rights reserved. This transcript may be reused with the following publication credit: Used by permission of the Billy Graham Center Archives, Wheaton College, Wheaton, IL. BGC Archives CN 206, T1 Transcript - Page 19 think that=s the idea at the time.

WILSON: Well, there were...I read one statistic that about five thousand missionaries fled at that time.

CHIN: Yes. That=s right.

WILSON: Did they do So, from...?

CHIN: But it=s a very short time.

WILSON: But did they leave Kaifeng?

CHIN: They left Kaifeng. But not all of them. Some of them left.

WILSON: Was there trouble in Kaifeng at the time?

CHIN: No, that=s only the Peking tension. Not other places actually.

WILSON: Uh-huh. Why would the missionaries leave then if there wasn’t...?

CHIN: Well, this anti-Christian movement or they say something is…is not a patriotic movement, so. You know from that region it is a very short time to the self-supporting Chinese groups.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Before this Communist.

WILSON: Uh-huh. Alrighty. Let=s see here. [Pauses] Were you at all familiar with the Church of Christ in China? [An ecumenical Protestant organization in China that came out of the 1922 Edinburgh Missionary Conference. It ceased to operate about 1954] It was a...oh, an early move…

CHIN: uh-huh.

WILSON: …toward a Chinese Christianity that was begun in 1922 I believe. CIM did not get involved with it.

CHIN: Uh-huh.

WILSON: Do you remember any of…?

CHIN: I don=t remember about that. Well, I think you mentioned, you know, just a moment ago…. Anyway, among the Chinese intellectuals, Christians, I mean, Christian intellectuals

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: That=s true. Even the mission side too, you know. Some missionaries always, you know, talking about it. However, now I just retrospectively, and I=m talking about back, looking back. Might be, the missions was…missions were So, slow to make the Chinese churches become Chinese.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: More, you know.

WILSON: Well, how...how does it happen? How does a church become independent? And how does it become a Chinese phenomenon rather than an import?

CHIN: Well...inwardly, it=s kind of the western theology which cannot really be interpreted to the Chinese mind.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: You know, I…I studied the theology in this country. I know, it seems So, understandable. But not really graspable by the Chinese mind. The thought of it, you know, is different.

WILSON: Because? I mean...because I have always grown up in a western culture, I=m having difficulty understanding…

CHIN: That’s right.

WILSON: …the Awhys.@

CHIN: Yeah.

WILSON: That=s part of the problem?

CHIN: It=s the same, you know?

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: It=s not so. You see, the Chinese, the mind is quite different. Some think in different ways.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: So, when we learn the western way of preaching, you know, the missionaries think...you know, think or are still thinking that way, “I interpret the real good [?] So, everybody can understand.”

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: But it is not so. It is not the Chinese Christians really understand the true meaning of the Bible.

WILSON: What…what does it take to...to get it translated to where the Chinaman who is not previously familiar with Christianity, to where he understands it immediately?

CHIN: Well, let me say this, because I am Chinese, I can say what my…this my personal impression.

WILSON: That=s exactly what I want to hear.

CHIN: You see now, what is the theology? God’s Word, being interpreted through the philosophical method.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Now what kind of philosophy? Of course, the western philosophy? Now not everybody, Chinese…not every Chinese, will know about the western philosophy.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: We see something in western countries through the philosophical method, logic of philosophy. You see, it might be the same thing. We=re talking about the same thing but interpreting in a different way.

WILSON: Uh-huh. So, with...do you think that many of the missionaries really caught on to that fact?

CHIN: Well, I think...if...I would say this. The first pioneer missionaries, not by their words, not by their preaching, rather by their, you know, life, their image, their actions, they showed their concern of the people. Especially poor people.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: And they showed their love through their way of doing, acting, like that.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: So, you know, now let me give one example. In the pioneer...in the China Inland

Missionary, what they did, alright? One young man came (Well, I don’t know if he was a young man) one man in the evening came to his house, you know, very simple house, you know, only one room and one bed. That=s all. Of course, it is not really a fancy bed like here, but just the kind the missionaries…just a kind of board and a mattress. When that man came in the evening, because he saw this man for maybe twenty or thirty miles. So, I think he came for some request or some money or some help or anyway.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: So…then he was late. So, he couldn’t go back. And there is no hotels available at that time. So, he had to stay there. Of course, he...the missionary kept him. Sure, Then what? No bed…only one bed. And the missionary said, what? AYou use my bed.@ Then what He can’t do that. Alright. The door, Chinese door is very heavy. [Unclear], just alright. “Put it in there.” He slept on that board and the guest slept there. You know, like this. You know, through their...you know really caring, taking care of people. That was the, you know, obviously then they had some, you know, dispensaries of drugs, you know, like that.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Of course, I don’t request that modern missionaries should do like that. It=s not necessary now.

WILSON: Right.

CHIN: However, that=s the first...you know, it’s the early ties like that.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Time changed. I really don’t insist. I was asked to the Baptist...no, it=s not the Baptist, all the missionaries who are learning Chinese in Taipei, in Taiwan. You know, they have the morning devotions. I was invited several times, “Tell us about how the missionaries live in China like.” Like that.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Yeah, with the people. They mingled with the people, you know, and So forth. But as I said, I don=t really expect the modern missionaries to mingle together with us in that sort, you know. However, you know, then the...later in the mission, missionaries built their own building. Of course, not…it might be too good compared with over here. But it is better that the Chinese hut of the average people, surely.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Then they built, you know, a high wall around the mission campus.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Not many people really enter into this, see the mission living like that. They see...the middle, the period of time. Things a lot have changed. And what is the…then how about the people, the missionary trained as the, you know, to be the evangelist.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: I think of...this is a difference between the Catholic Church...Roman Catholics and the Protestant Church at large. They rather...pick up the good will of people, Catholics. And ask them to do some church work. There is more…better educated than the average Chinese. I mean the Protestant workers

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Well, I think that=s something is…I…I don=t like to say that=s this…their really big mistakes. But they are the background, the environment, all of these things. The first general or several first generations, those evangelists that work, Chinese workers, not really a good standard. They were the people whom the local people looked down [on].

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: You know. Then they believe, they testify, the Chinese, are those who go to work for the foreign missionaries. They, what they say, they are [unclear].

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: The Chinese literate…I mean, illiterate. “It=s a foreign religion.” You know why? “Those people are not literate, is lazy to work, then they just get believe in the Christian faith, they got the job, and they make the money,” So forth

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Then they, you know, the better people don=t like to. They are somehow, okay.

WILSON: Sorry about this machine [referring to high pitched squealing from tape recorder]. Let me turn it off a second and turn it back on. [Turns tape recorder off and on.]

CHIN: Alright.

WILSON: We may be doomed on this, I don=t know. Probably. We’ll have to bear with it.

CHIN: Okay.

WILSON: Well, keep…keep going. It=s a very interesting.

CHIN: That=s in past, not now.

WILSON: Uh-huh. Well, the missionaries who were at Kaifeng. Were they accepted by the local people? Were they appreciated? Were they loved? Did they make themselves part of the community?

CHIN: Some did. Some did not. You know, since...and even they...the people mingled together with the Chinese but it=s a very small, limited group.

WILSON: Uh-huh. Did you remember any missionaries in particular? Who stood out in your own mind when you were growing up?

CHIN: Well, I know some of them...the China Inland Mission

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: But the missionaries who visit the Chinese Christians homes, and they also, invited the Chinese Christians to, you know, come to their home like that, it is not, not too much actually. Some particular person might be. Like I said, that is my own experience. It might be a little different. I don’t know. Because I am medical doctor, I don=t know, anyway.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: You know for instance, we all Christian workers, Chinese workers and also, the foreign missionaries, all flew from the leftist, Communist occupied area

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: in 1950, >49, you know that time.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Three, four hundred missionaries gathered together in Hong Kong. And they, most of them, stayed in a Lutheran home here. It=s a six story building. You know, then also, I know that quite the number of Chinese pastors came out too.

WILSON: Came out of China at that time?

CHIN: Came out of the Communist area.

WILSON: Uh-huh. And where did they go?

CHIN: Well, most of them went back, you know, settle down and then they went back. Some of them came out of Hong Kong.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: So, at that time, I came out from Szechwan, Hong Kong. And then I got to work before I arriving, I wrote a letter to the mission, the missionary who is in charge with the mission home. I said AI=m coming, whether you have any room for me.@

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: So, actually, he did. So, he reserved one room for me and my family. But not all others. All other Chinese workers, no one there, even if they stayed in Hong Kong two or three months already. So....

WILSON: Uh-huh. I=d like to ask you about your...your educational background. You…you went to public school…

CHIN: Yes.

WILSON: …in Kaifeng. Through what…?

CHIN: Through medical school. All in Kaifeng. But I didn’t finish medical school in Kaifeng, because of the Japanese, you know, the war.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: That was the third year. I finished two years there.] Third year there, I transferred to Canton University Medical School.

WILSON: What year was that hat you...?

CHIN: Well, I graduated in >40. So, that=s seven years. In what, ‘30? I think the coming...the Japanese invaded the northern China...20...I mean >36 I think.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: >36, >37. Yeah. [The incident at the Marco Polo or Logou Bridge near the city of Wanping, a suburb of Beijing, occurred on July 8, 1937 and is regarded as the start of the Sino- Japanese War]

WILSON: What…? None…none of your education was particularly Christian in orientation?

CHIN: No, no.

WILSON: It was secular education?

CHIN: Yeah.

WILSON: In the time that you were growing up, was it difficult to be a Christian in the community?

CHIN: No.

WILSON: It was an atmosphere favorable?

CHIN: They just ignore, you know. The Chinese really never against one single religion...

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: …you know.

WILSON: Well, what was it that made Christianity So, unpopular from time to time? Was it...was it the fact that it was a foreign element or...?

CHIN: I think that it was not only that it was a foreign element but also, political and later development actually the Communist...the Chinese Communist work through the students.

WILSON: Uh-huh. Was the…the medical course that you pursued, is it different from a medical school in the US or is it pretty much the same curriculum?

CHIN: I think it=s about the same. But we...the school I graduated is rather follow the German system. So, I had German professors [chuckles].

WILSON: Do you remember the (Well, I=m sure you do) the beginnings of Japan=s aggression in China?

CHIN: Oh, oh yes, surely, I do.

WILSON: Can you describe any particular instances in that whole, long problem with the Japanese aggression and what it did to your particular area of China? What it did to the church? What…whatever.

CHIN: Well, whenever the Japanese arrived, Japanese army arrived, all the Christian churches were shut down. At least for a while.

WILSON: Because?

CHIN: Well, they said, “It is foreigners,” you know.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Then, especially after Pearl Harbor, that...you know, that happened, then the Japanese anti-American too. So, that all the Christian churches, is you know, is the American church and

So forth. But that=s a later development.

WILSON: I=m going to turn this tape over and see if it’ll quit squeaking.

CHIN: Okay.

WILSON: [Recording is stopped and restarted] Alrighty.

CHIN: Okay.

WILSON: We’ll hope for the best. So, you...we left you...busily getting your education. You were about to tell me about the Japanese aggression, you know, all through the 30s. Did anything in particular happen to your area?

CHIN: Oh yes, they occupied my home town. Well, I left they occupied, so…. Then that=s why I transport my school too.

WILSON: Uh-uh. Was to…to get away…

CHIN: Yeah.

WILSON: …from Japanese occupation? But your family was still there?

CHIN: No, no. All moved out.

WILSON: The whole…whole family? And you all moved to...?

CHIN: To, you know, the unoccupied area in China.

WILSON: Oh. Where did you go?

CHIN: Szechwan.

WILSON: Now where…that=s way west.

CHIN: Southwest.

WILSON: Okay,

CHIN: Southwest.

WILSON: Now that=s a province name.

CHIN: Szechwan, yeah.

WILSON: What was the town?

CHIN: Well, I studied in the other province. The school moved to another province, but my family was in Chungking.

WILSON: Alright. That=s C-H-U-N...?

CHIN: C-H-U-N-G-K-I-N-G.

WILSON: Got it. Okay. You’ll have to forgive me. Did that part of China ever get occupied?

CHIN: No.

WILSON: So, you were pretty much out of the...?

CHIN: Japanese.

WILSON: Yes.

CHIN: I never met the Japanese army [laughs].

WILSON: Okay. Did you...what kind of a church did you find in Chungking when you were with your family?

CHIN: No, I was not in....

WILSON: Oh that=s right. They were.

CHIN: They were, yeah.

WILSON: And you were where in school?

CHIN: The school, yes. Then the Canton, this university...Canton is occupied by the Japanese too.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: So, before they occupied, they moved it to other province that=s further south. Yunnan. That=s the border with the Burma.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: So, the school moved there, and I graduated from that, you know, in that province.

WILSON: Uh-huh. Did you have connection with the CIM work there?

CHIN: Yes. That area is the CIM area, the mission, you know? High mountains. There is a tribe peoples there. CIM has a work there. Oh, they did great job.

WILSON: What was the nature of their work there? Just like it was anywhere else?

CHIN: Oh yeah. I think so. Just rather poor area, you know?

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: The language is a different language.

WILSON: Different than what you’ve grown up with?

CHIN: Yeah, this is Chinese I=m speaking. Mandarin. But the tribe people, they have their own language.

WILSON: Incidentally, when…when did you learn to speak English?

CHIN: Well, in the middle school I learned a little bit.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: But in college, I rather used German.

WILSON: Alrighty [both laugh]. When did you start to work for the mission?

CHIN: Right after I graduate, in the hos…CIM hospital there, which was in Kaifeng, before the Japanese occupied that area, that was I think in 194...=40...no. 30s, right?

WILSON: What, >38? >39?

CHIN: 30 something.

WILSON: Or >36 you said earlier.

CHIN: >36, yeah. >36 the war started, I think. And then...but still the mission hospitals didn’t learn until Pearl Harbor.

WILSON: And then it closed down?

CHIN: Then it closed down. They moved without to Yunnan to this...they took the sea. They come back to Burma and come in from the back door, Yunnan. So, after they moved there, the...you know, I already graduated. I worked at the Presbyterian hospital like almost two years, I guess. Then they moved over to Yunnan. That=s from the northern China to outside the sea, going to the Burma.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Entering into the China, the southwest of China. That=s the Yunnan province.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: So, they said to me AWe need you to come build up this hospital.@

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: So, I went down there. That=s this young hospital.

WILSON: Now how long were you employed with them?

CHIN: Not too long because the Japanese also, occupied the Burma and they came from the backdoor too.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: At least...not quite two years. A year and a half, something like that. But after half a year, I got there, we had quite a few…three, you know, men doctors foreign missionary doctors. And four lady doctors. You know, the Hong Ko…the Yunnan…the Kaifeng hospital was a big hospital.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Of course, the Yunnan is temporary, very small. Then after half a year, the Second World War was still going on. All the male doctors, foreign missionary doctors, were all called back to home.

WILSON: Oh.

CHIN: Because they have a shortage of doctors.

WILSON: And their…their mission…

CHIN: Mission.

WILSON: …work didn’t give them a deferment, hey?

CHIN: No. So, then the only female doctors we had. I knew, I was the only one Chinese male doctor [laughs].

WILSON: Who were some of your fellow doctors there? Do you remember their names?

CHIN: Well, they are ladies now. Of course, my age now. They are like MacDonald, I think is a lady doctor who died in California I think just two…two years ago. And most of the England doctors, not the American doctors. But there is one very famous name, you know, Soltau. That=s Presbyterian who wrote the one book, the Missions on Crossroad. [Missions at the Crossroads; - the Indigenous Church, the Solution for the Unfinished Task by T. Stanley Soltau, published 1955] He’s a Korean. He was in Korea….

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: …Presbytery. He wrote the one mission book.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: That=s about ten or fifteen years ago.

WILSON: I guess I=m not familiar….

CHIN: S-A-L-T-A-U.

WILSON: Uh-huh. And he was there...?

CHIN: No, not. I mean I just mentioned it.

WILSON: Oh, okay.

CHIN: His…his sister was in China Inland Mission.

WILSON: Oh, alrighty.

CHIN: Was a nurse and she was the superintendent of nursing school.

WILSON: Well, while we=re on the subject of female doctors, did you ever know Mary Stone [also, known as Shi Meiyu, 1873-1954]? She was a founder of Bethel Hospital.

CHIN: Was she perhaps in Shanghai?

WILSON: Sha…. Yeah. Did you…

CHIN: No.

WILSON: …know her at all? I=m trying to find out if she was Chinese or if she was western. I’ve seen her name…

CHIN: Yeah.

WILSON: …written as Mary Stone but in parentheses with a Chinese name. And I was just wondering if she were [sic] American or Chinese.

CHIN: First American. Yeah.

WILSON: Alrighty.

CHIN: Yeah.

WILSON: So, when the Japanese came to Yunnan province, again the hospital closed?

CHIN: Yes, it moved again [laughs]

WILSON: And where did it go?

CHIN: Well, moved just a little bit. They [the Japanese army] did not come in too much, you know, not too deep. Then the war ended.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: So, the move might be a couple hundred miles in the big city.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: And the Japanese never came So, far.

WILSON: Well, now did you continue to work for the hospital after it moved that time?

CHIN: No. I…well, we decided I go back to the home, you know….

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: …in the northern part of China.

WILSON: Oh, where your family was living?

CHIN: Yeah. It=s wait, wait [to see] how it settled, you know.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Might be war is soon be ended when you went back to Kaifeng. But it was not...all in a very short time.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Then the Communists took over again [laughs].

WILSON: Now when...when did you yourself leave China? Leave mainland China?

CHIN: In [pauses] =50. Spring of >50.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: I left mainland China to Taiwan.

WILSON: And why?

CHIN: Well, it is Communist coming down, so.

WILSON: Uh-huh. Did you leave any family behind?

CHIN: My whole family, you know, we fled together.

WILSON: Your parents…?

CHIN: But my sisters, young sisters still there.

WILSON: To this day?

CHIN: Yeah.

WILSON: Have you been able to keep up contact with her?

CHIN: Yes, we have. Yeah.

WILSON: What...?

CHIN: They were in high school at that time.

WILSON: But your parents came out?

CHIN: No, my parents passed at that time. Only my uncle was there.

WILSON: Uh-huh. Well, had you married by then? I take it so.

CHIN: Oh yes.

WILSON: Well, then let=s back up and talk about that. Your wife=s name is...?

CHIN: Is…her maiden name is...now the last name is Wang. That=s the family name in Chinese.

Wang. W-A-N-G, I guess.

WILSON: Alrighty.

CHIN: And her first name is Ming, M-I-N-G. S-H-U-N. Shun. [Laughs]

WILSON: Alrighty. Got it. And when you both married?

CHIN: In Yunnan.

WILSON: No, when?

CHIN: When we were in Yunnan. Let=s see...it=s >40...early part of >42.

WILSON: Alrighty. Where did you meet her?

CHIN: Well, we knew…met in Kaifeng a few years ago.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Then I went back to [unclear]. She was nurse at the mission hospital.

WILSON: Ah, okay.

CHIN: Then we...the hospital moved from Kaifeng to Yunnan So, I knew she went there and I went there too So, [laughs].

WILSON: Was she raised a Christian?

CHIN: Oh yes. Her family...I mean her parents are Christian too.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: In the CIM mission field.

WILSON: Those CIM folks got around.

CHIN: Yeah [laughs].

WILSON: Between the time the war ended and the time that the Nationalist government finally capitulated to the Communists…

CHIN: Uh-huh.

WILSON: …can you describe the...the series of events and, you know, how it...how it began to

CHIN: Uh-huh.

WILSON: …but...we’ll start there. When did it begin to become apparent to you that…that China was closing down?

CHIN: Well, I think, you know, it=s a long story actually. During the war (I mean the Japanese, you know, Japanese war, the Second World War) the Nationalists, you know, fought against Germany [unclear] At the time the Communists, the Chinese Communists cooperated nominally with the Nationalists that fought Japan. But actually, they didn’t. They rather, you know [unclear] get the weapons from the Nationalists. They kept this in their hand, and they sent only small groups, you know, people behind of the Japanese occupied area.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: So, it=s very complicated. Then they made lots of propaganda, you know, with the...in those occupied by Japanese.

WILSON: Uh-huh. [Pauses] So….

CHIN: Then war over. Of course, surely there is the...large and Nationalist within army, within government. Lots of corruption. That=s the fact.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: But one thing they did good, you know. The mistake of the Nationalists when the war over, alright, those that...the soldiers, even the quite high officers, who were the...not directly educated by the Chiang, Chiang family, you know.

WILSON: Right.

CHIN: Chiang Kai-shek.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: There were so, many. “The war’s over, we don’t need so, many officers and soldiers.” But when they went back to the occupied...once occupied by Japanese they went home. Nothing left, nothing. The houses, you know, had been destroyed.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: But they had no money, nothing to do. They hear the Communists say AWhy don’t you come over to us? We need you.@

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: So, thousands of thousands of Nationalist soldiers went over to the Communists.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: And Of course, another thing is the Americans…the Americans are also, involved with it too. They gave this Manchuria to Russia. You know, they divided, occupied, you know? But that was a really big mistake. At that time, the China Communists…Chinese Communists and Christians very good friend. And so, in Manchuria, all of this, you know, all this Japanese army surrendered, all this Japanese and the weapons, everything is handed out to Russia. Then Russia gave it to the Communists. And then, you know, the Japanese army in Manchuria, the strongest [unclear] in the army, in the [entire] Japanese army. That=s actually their...one day they might need this part against Russia.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: That was a worry there. [?] So, then the Communists…the Russians handed this all over to Communists.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: So, that the northern China, very easily changed hands from the Nationalists to the Communists.

WILSON: Did you realize early on what...what it was going to mean to Chinese Christianity to have Communist rule?

CHIN: Of course, we knew that. Yeah. You know…you know, there=s a Communist by nature…by nature the Communists never allow any rival forces…

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: …within their, you know, region. So, basically part of the problem the problem is basically that normally the religious group or particularly a labor group….

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: …they don=t allow.

WILSON: So, you could tell from the start...

CHIN: Oh yeah.

WILSON: …that Christianity was....

CHIN: Sure.

WILSON: Your sister, was she a Christian?

CHIN: Yes.

WILSON: And she managed….

CHIN: She was young, high school, you know. Now she is graduated, thirty years ago [laughs]. Yeah.

WILSON: Well, has she managed to retain it?

CHIN: Well, just a hint. But not really outspoken.

WILSON: Uh-huh. Now you were about to say something and I cut you off there a second ago.

CHIN: Well, you know, just mention a little bit about the faith. But not her personality. You know, sometimes I ask a little bit. [Unclear] That kind of [unclear] we get the information from the, like you know...The China Prayer….Prayer for China. Something like that.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: So, we get almost the same, yeah. And my wife is still there, sister living there too.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: They were all Christians, then. She, you know, she doesn’t mention too much.

WILSON: Your wife or her sister?

CHIN: Wife=s sister.

WILSON: Uh-huh. Is that because she can=t?

CHIN: No, I think they are still a little bit in fear, you know.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Out of those experiences in the past few year….

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: They still fear some. Afraid of some of the [unclear].

WILSON: Uh-huh. When.... You…you said that you left mainland China because of the Communist rule.

CHIN: That=s right.

WILSON: What about the Communist rule did you not want to live under?

CHIN: Well, even though the Communists before...even before they took the power, we already knew what the Communists like. You know, even that time there is a lot in Szcehwan, in some province mountain area, they controlled quite a long time.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: We knew that all those who reported from this, you know, Communist controlled area what the people, they knew.

WILSON: [Pauses] Did you...were you able to bring anything out?

CHIN: Nothing. [Unclear] together

WILSON: And how many were there in your family at that time?

CHIN: Well, we came out in Szechwan. It=s not really there [?] At that time, after the war, I had my own clinic in…in Sian, that=s a big city in northwest part of China.

WILSON: How do you spell that one?

CHIN: Sian, I think. S-I-A-N. [Modern Romanization is Xian.]

WILSON: Alrighty.

CHIN: That’s a big city. Now they...all the archaeological discovery over there in that area. All listed [?] [ Terracotta Army of Emperor Qin Shi Huang]So, after the war was over, after Japan surrendered, I went there and I set up my own clinic there.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: So, it was about two years, I guess. Then the Communists already surrounded the big cities. But the area was still open. I think it just lasted a few weeks, I guess. Then I took the place. My whole family. Nine all together.

WILSON: Now who all...?

CHIN: My uncle, my sister=s brothers. They were young at that time, you know.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: And so…my wife and my daughter. So, we have all together nine.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: [Unclear] two times. And we all moved Sian to Chungking.

WILSON: And from Chungking to...?

CHIN: To south. Further south.

WILSON: Uh-huh. And from there out to Taiwan?

CHIN: Not, no. Still stayed more than a year…

WILSON: Oh, okay.

CHIN: …in Canton and Hong Kong. And eventually went over to Taiwan.

WILSON: Uh-huh. Now what did you do when you first got to Taiwan and you got all those people to feed?

CHIN: Well, I went over to the…the government operating arsenal in the factory. I hired as the, you know, the doctor. But meanwhile, I had my own church.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Actually, in Sian after the war…I went back to Sian I helped the one pastor of a Lutheran church build, you know, started one church there.

WILSON: And you started a new church?

CHIN: New church, yeah.

WILSON: And it was a Lutheran.

CHIN: Lutheran.

WILSON: What [pauses] what was your way of building your church?

CHIN: Well, it is, you know…what do you mean?

WILSON: I…I mean building your congregation. Where do you get people…

CHIN: Well, you know….

WILSON: …to populate your church?

CHIN: Well, it’s rather that during the war…

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: …lots of people, Christian people say they came from the occupied area.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: So, when I went up to there, I met this pastor. He had about twenty peoples, you know, meeting.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Then Of course, then I went over then, and I find my old…old friends, some Christians So, we started the one.... This is not the mission really started. It was really Chinese Christians…

WILSON: Right.

CHIN: …yeah, started the work. And I was the…as the elder and vice chairman of that area. We had quite a few cities we started in that way. So, I am in the Lutheran church, the old Lutheran church. Even at that time I worked as the kind of the licensed, you know, pastor. Whenever or wherever there was no pastor, then I just acted as the pastor.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Besides carrying on my medical work.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Then I did that in Sian. And in Chungking (I went over to Chungking a second time) there was one Lutheran church. But that pastor had to…to go back to Shanghai (he came from Shanghai).

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: after the Japanese surrendered. So, there is no pastor at the congregation. So, I took care of about half a year there.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Yeah. Then I went further south because the Communists got pushed down from the

WILSON: The church that you helped found in Sian, how big was that when you left?

CHIN: Small [Unclear].

WILSON: Did most of those people come out [of China]?

CHIN: No, I don=t think so.

WILSON: Do you know what happened to the church?

CHIN: All closed, I am sure. No problem.

WILSON: Would it have gone under….

CHIN: [Unclear]

WILSON: Well, would it have gone underground?

CHIN: I don=t know much about it. That’s years….

WILSON: And the church in Chungking? Same thing?

CHIN: Yes. Well, there was a small house there, actually no church. And the pastor stayed there [?] about ten years, the Chungking church.

WILSON: When you…you went to Taiwan then, you were already Lutherans.

CHIN: Well, I in...in the southern part of China, I stopped there about half a year. I gathered some Lutherans and some other Christians and we took them home. And when I went over to Taiwan, I took all of these people along with me. As soon as we got there, those [unclear]. And then I borrowed this little, not little, it was quite a sizable room in a factory. So, we meet there [unclear] and we had our meetings [unclear].

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: That=s about >51, >52 through >51 [sic]. I was able to baptize about seventy-five Chinese kids one year after we got there.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: So, that=s the first congregation, Lutheran congregation.

WILSON: First Lutheran church in Taiwan?

CHIN: There were no Lutheran church.

WILSON: Huh. Now from…from there, how do we get to the founding of the Lutheran Seminary?

CHIN: Well, then I wrote letters to the missions. At that time, some missionaries still staying in Hong Kong…

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: …came out from mainland China. Mission organizations, not missionaries, but I also wrote a letter to the Lutheran World Federation whether any missionary who under...who can speak Chinese, who’s, you know. Are they willing to send to them to Taiwan? And I had a good response. They responded very positively.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: So, even some mission groups from the United States, their missionaries, you know, if they came from mainland China and they didn’t like to stay in Hong Kong. So, the missions send them to Japan learning the language. [Laughs] Japanese.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Then…then they said they got my letter. All these good [unclear] So, they just came from Japan to Taiwan immediately.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: So, it=s a [unclear]. I already had two lady missionaries.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: And >53, >54, you know. Maximum, we had about sixteen Lutheran missionaries. Then they started working all the big, you know, big and small cities.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Too many people came at the same time, you know, and they didn’t need to learn the language. They already knew the language. So....

WILSON: Right. Uh-huh

CHIN: That way, the very easy, very quickly, you know organized Taiwan Lutheran church.

WILSON: The church is how big now?

CHIN: It=s about forty congregations.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: And…but it=s in these years it is a little bit slowed down.

WILSON: To what do you attribute that?

CHIN: I think it=s materially they are very prosperous people. People don=t need God…

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: …I guess, that’s what. And another thing is I still think that one factor is these church workers hadn’t much, you know, deep understanding of Christianity. They are still at work as pastors and So, not really wholeheartedly devoted.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Because of this, even when they became the pastors, they had no background. They just converted, you know to Christianity in Taiwan.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: But this is something that I am still wondering about that. Not only Lutherans, all other churches. Same.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: So, we need revival among the workers.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: That=s what the Chinese...I mean the Taiwan is doing.

WILSON: When you founded Lutheran Seminary, what was your vision for it?

CHIN: Well…well, first I contacted with the other churches to have the union seminary. But they, you know, still all the mission…missionaries opposed it.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: They rather wanted the two, three missionaries to teach the seminary person. That’s their way of doing. So, then I went over to Hong Kong and whether we can have the.... We have a Hong Kong Seminary, a Lutheran Seminary. That is actually evacuated from mainland China. We had only one seminary, you know, in Lutheran church in China, mainland China.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Well, politically, the situation was not so stable. So, we could not send over our, you know, students there and So forth. So, we, you know, in order to expand our work, we needed some Chinese workers. The only way – to train our own.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: So, it started in that way. At least now, we actually working with the Presbyterians. We send our students, you know…. We cannot maintain…

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: …small churches, you know?

WILSON: Amidst all that wealth?

CHIN: So, I think it=s too much, you know. Cost too much.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: We talk about these things many, many times with the mission board here in the United States or I traveled in Europe. But here, even here the economic…the financial stress is not too, you know…. It=s a very heavy burden…

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: …to maintain one seminary. Even if you have only twenty, you know sometimes thirty students. Sometimes even less than, you know, twenty. But we still have to keep So, many teachers.

WILSON: Right. Yes. What has your role been in the Lutheran church in Taiwan since you’ve come to America?

CHIN: I organized the…>54 organized the Taiwan Lutheran church.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Then in >55 I helped the Hong Kong Lutheran church to organize the Hong Kong Lutheran church. Then I went back to Taiwan and in >55, January, I left Taiwan and traveled to India through Europe. I came to St. Paul, Minnesota to study theology.

WILSON: Oh, of course.

CHIN: Yeah, So, I graduated from Luther Seminary. Have you heard of that name? Lutheran

Seminary? That quite a good size of seminary.

WILSON: Did you intend to return to Taiwan at that time?

CHIN: Oh yes.

WILSON: Oh. And did you?

CHIN: I did.

WILSON: Oh, okay.

CHIN: I did, sure.

WILSON: And how long did you stay in Taiwan before...?

CHIN: Coming here?

WILSON: Yeah.

CHIN: I went back in >59.

WILSON: You went back to Taiwan in >59?

CHIN: Yeah. And worked there as a teacher at seminary, as doctor at our hospital there. Then also, I took…took several years at a situation, president of a church.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: [Unclear] church.

WILSON: And then came to America when?

CHIN: >70, [pauses] I think >75. Yeah. Six years. Six years. Six year.

WILSON: Why did you come?

CHIN: Well, I retired over there.

WILSON: You were tired?

CHIN: I retired.

WILSON: Oh, you retired.

CHIN: The church. Well, my kids living here, you know. They came here. They had education here.

WILSON: Okay.

CHIN: So, I retired, and I just come over here, you know [laughs].

WILSON: Well, that makes sense.

CHIN: Yeah. But I went back last summer. I will be back next year too, I think.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: So, back and forth.

WILSON: Now you mentioned to me earlier that it was in India that you met Billy Graham.

CHIN: Yeah, I think so.

WILSON: In 1956?

CHIN: >55 ’56. Something like that. [Evangelist Billy Graham was in India January 17-February 13, 1956]

WILSON: Yeah. What were the circumstances of your meeting him?

CHIN: Well, I traveled, you know, I was invited by the Lutheran Church of India, the bishop of the Lutheran Church in India.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: So, I traveled about three years. At that time I think Billy Graham had a crusade there.

WILSON: So, you just happened...?

CHIN: So, I happened to be there.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Of course, you know [unclear] various churches sponsored it.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: So, this bishop always…already passed away. But he invited me and there was a good chance that we see him, So, alright.

WILSON: When you were telling me much earlier this evening about the difference in the way the Chinese think from how westerners think and the problems of getting the Gospel translated properly…

CHIN: Uh-huh, yeah.

WILSON: …etcetera. Did you feel the reverse of that when you came to St. Paul [meaning Luther Seminary in Minnesota]?

CHIN: No. For me, because I contact the western missionaries in my earlier age and then after then I have education, then I worked together, it isn’t that difficult for me to understand what they say.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: You know, I don=t mean that that God’s Word is served [?] as something different, but it=s how do we make people understand the way of, you know, you know. That=s a little bit, not So, easy. You know when I started the theology seminary, the theological seminary in Taiwan, you know, one of…two of them, actually, worked together at the seminary in St. Paul all right?

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: So, he taught certain courses too, you know. So, I made a joke, you know. “I am Chinese. When I was studying at Luther Seminary. You, of course, you understand a hundred percent. But perhaps I only could understand maybe sixty, seventy percent. But you know, you come over to Taiwan. I came back to Taiwan. We both teachers. You know, when you say something, our students only understand maybe the half. And if I say seventy, then I say they all understand. And So, I have seventy…I can make them understand seventy. You have one hundred percent, but you can only make them fifty percent [unclear, laughs].” So...

WILSON: So, in the end, your percentage is better.

CHIN: Yeah [laughs].

WILSON: That=s good. I like that.

CHIN: Then, you know, I sometimes say with my good friends, all good friends…

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: …with western missionaries, you know, “You better…in the last time as a missionary, you shouldn’t come out.” “Why?” “Because your last term when you arrived here, they always think about ten months later, ‘I going to retire,’ and So forth. You=re always, you know, thinking about that day one year later So, your work isn’t not good, you know [laughs]. So, you better, you know, the last term not come.” He laughed. Then I said…I thought…I met, you know, lots

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: You know.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: So, I think this this is two different kinds. [Laughs]. So, then I ask them AWhat kind of do you belong to?@ [Laughs].

WILSON: Uh-huh. Yeah, I should have asked you much earlier, but I’ll ask you now. How did you happen to become a Lutheran?

CHIN: Well, one year the CIM, you know what they do?

WILSON: They’re interdenominational, aren’t they?

CHIN: Yeah, interdenominational, not only that but they sometimes…they establish congregation in a certain area in a certain town. It=s grown up, they are short of [?] the mission…their missionary persons. Or even they have…they have more…there is a chance, a good chance to go to an unevangelized the area. Then they say, you know, “Alright. If your Lutheran church wanted to have this congregation,” they just hand it over them.”

WILSON: Oh.

CHIN: So, sometimes they are not nondenominational.

WILSON: Uh-huh. So, that=s what happened...?

CHIN: That=s what happens.

WILSON: ...to the church you belong to in...?

CHIN: They ask the Lutherans to take over, so….

WILSON: Okay.

CHIN: But… And the Lutherans...I mean the CIM also, do this. There are certain areas not only one congregation, for instance in Northern Szcehwan Province, there is one area all Episcopalian church.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: But that belongs to CIM. But the workers all Episcopalian.

WILSON: Oh yeah. Uh-huh.

CHIN: So, that=s the CIM. Nature of CIM.

WILSON: Does...did the CIM work well with other missions?

CHIN: Oh yes. No problem. Well, within CIM there is also Lutheran.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: So...

WILSON: So, they can be all things [I Corinthians 9:22]?

CHIN: Yeah, that=s alright. No difference.

WILSON: When you were in China, did you ever encounter the Jesus People?

CHIN: You mean Home of Jesus? Family of Jesus.

WILSON: The Jesus Family. Yeah.

CHIN: Jesus Family [A Chinese Pentecostal group started by Jing Dianying].

WILSON: There we go. Thank you. Did you ever…?

CHIN: Oh yes. That=s in Shandong Province. I knew them, not the top who…who started. I knew his sister. But he himself….

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: …I never met. But there is a top officers and leaders….

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: …one of the leaders I met. . WILSON: What did you think of the Jesus family at that time?

CHIN: Well, they’re quite similar with here the Quakers in the United States. with a certain series of speakers than in the United States. Certain groups, Well, there are several groups you know.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: What they did at the very beginning, they kind of commune, they bring everything. Put together and then they use. If he was the doctor, they serve all the peoples without any pay, because they live together, they commune together.

WILSON: Right.

CHIN: Yeah. And teachers, teachers. And the farmers, no matter, they do the farmers work hard and then all the harvest, you know, brought into the one.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: I met them, not the…not the founder, but I said this, well doctrinally, that’s all they emphasize but other things I don=t think any difference.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Average Christian group. But I argued with them. “Now you have doctor. You are a teacher.” They have own…own elementary school, you know, within their group. “You know, but what about the next generation?”

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: “So, you always, you know, take peoples, you know from outside. Now, if you cannot take, then what?”

WILSON: You mean they=re not producing any...?

CHIN: Not producing any. Yes.

WILSON: Okay.

CHIN: This is the one point I just, you know.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Alright. So, another thing is, now you=re basically farming your crops, you know, eat food you raised. Then how about people increase? And outside people,” (outside I mean the society as a whole) “is evidence [?] more improvement. And how about your living standards? Can you keep with the average people? So, this is something, you know, to look to the future.”

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: “So, I don=t see any…. You have no such, you know, plan, you know? You didn’t think

WILSON: Uh-huh. And what was their answer?

CHIN: Just that they don=t know. But however that also, when the Communists took over allowed them for a while because the Chinese themselves organized. You know, the first slogan is anti-foreign, you know…

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: …So, all the mission oriented churches closed very quickly. But let them [the Jesus Family] maintain quite a few years, I guess.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Then they don=t allow.

WILSON: Because?

CHIN: Well, that=s kind of the.... Maybe they are not ..So, you know, obey the…the government rules and So forth.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: I don=t know exactly why, you know.

WILSON: Uh-huh. It=s an interesting movement.

CHIN: Yeah, that’s right. This…but whether that society last longer or not, that=s the question.

WILSON: Well, did the Communist government allow them to exist for a while because their philosophy was in practice somewhat close to communism?

CHIN: Well, possibly so. Yeah, it is possible. But, that’s something you know, not along their…is not…. ”It is within their own form [?], it is not ours.” So, they don=t like that. If you listen. But that=s exactly right now in China now. So-called government sponsored churches, open churches, you know. How they...how close relationship between government and church body, I don=t know.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: But at least the pastors or the church workers are paid by government. Their salary is paid.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: But all the home churches [house churches], they are still workers, no matter what kind of work. Still coming to work on one hand and then serving the Christians.

WILSON: I…um...we=re about out of tape here, but I...a couple of quickies to ask you. Did you know Leland Wang [go to Wang Zai, 1898-1975] at all?

CHIN: No.

WILSON: He was a…a formal naval officer who became a…quite a famous evangelist…

CHIN: You mean…?

WILSON: …and preached in Communist China.

CHIN: It’s Leland? The foreign name is Leland? Wang Ming Dao? [Wang Ming Dao, 1900- 1991, was a different person]

WILSON: Could be.

CHIN: Yes.

WILSON: You…you did know him?

CHIN: I know a person personally. Yes.

WILSON: What do you remember about him?

CHIN: Well, like the Watchman Nee.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: It=s what he preached the Gospel is more acceptable to Chinese people. That’s the only….

WILSON: More acceptable because...?

CHIN: Yeah More understand, you know.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Easy to understand.

WILSON: I wish that...that I could fully grasp what you’re saying there. I understand it intellectually, but I’m having difficulty fully getting it.

CHIN: You know this...here is the Christian background no matter where. As I…when I was taking the post-graduate study at Concordia, you know. Concordia! Post-graduate.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Then I argue with the…well, not really argue, just conversation with the seminary professors. Alright, you know you hear somebody doesn’t believe the Bible as [unclear]. Oh, that’s horrible. But in China, without Bible in all our history, without Bible.

WILSON: Right.

CHIN: Year. So, you cannot…your assumption not really repeatable to Chinese.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Now for instance, somebody says AWhat the Bible say, that’s the truth, that’s absolutely the truth.@ But Chinese, the non-Christians doesn’t accept that. “Now what the Bible has to do with us?”

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: After they believe, then alright. Until they believe, it’s…it=s meaningless to them.

WILSON: Yeah, it=s beginning to get through to me.

CHIN: Yeah, you see?

WILSON: Yes.

CHIN: Then, you know, always arguing about the Bible, you know. We take out the Bible, you know, for our proof.

WILSON: Right.

CHIN: But non-Christian Chinese, that’s nothing. You know, when I…when I was in Taiwan, we had in Tunghai University, have you heard of that?

WILSON: No, I guess not.

CHIN: Tunghai University today is actually…it founded by the actual…it founded by the [unclear] Christian foundation in China.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Its money comes from them. Then they build the house and So forth. Tunghai

University. So, this Christian University, we…the president and the several church leaders in Taiwan, we invited the Chinese philosophers, Catholic professors in the Catholic seminary and some non-Christian scholars every…twice a year. We have a kind of discussion. Religious and Chinese philosophy discussion. So, then we take the turn. One time we presented a certain paper.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: The philosophers alright, the non-Christian scholars. We presented our paper, then we discussed how they think about.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: Now, for instance, one time I presented the one because now it=s coming back to here this May, this month rather. Still it is a hard argument, you know, about the creation and the evolution,

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: you know about this? Of course, there are some Chinese who have heard about this. One time, I present three chapters of…of Genesis.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: So, how I explained this, you know the Creation story.

WILSON: Uh-huh.

CHIN: The Bible, you know.

END OF TAPE