REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF TYNWALD COURT

Douglas, Tuesday, January l/th, 1961

Present: The Governor (Sir Ronald TRIBUTE TO MR GEORGE HIGGINS Garvey, K.C.M.G., K.C.V.O., M.B.E.). —FORMER MEMBER OF THE In the Council: Deemster S. J: Kneale. LEGISLATURE 0.B.E., Deemster B. W. Macpherson, the Attorney-General (Mr G. E. Moore), The Governor: Before proceeding Sir Ralph Stevenson, G.C.M.G,, Messrs with the business of the Court I must J. F. Crelin, 0.B.E., Kg., J. H Nicholls, mention the loss which the Isle of Man and E. B. C. Farrant, M.B.E., with has sustained by the death of Mr George Mr E. R. St. A. Davies, M.B.E., Govern- ' Higgins. Mr Higgins was a stalwart of ment Secretary and Clerk to the Coun- the commercial life of the Island and cil. In the Keys: The Acting-Speaker his native gifts and acumen were in- (Mr H. C. Kerruish), Messrs T. F. valuable to the many major Manx Corkhil, T. H. Colebourn, E. N. Crowe, companies of which he was a director. H. H. Radcliffe, Lt.-Cdr. J. L. Quine, - In spite of his numerous business Messrs J. C. Nivison, W. E. Quayle, interests, he gave freely of his time for H, S. Cain. A. H. Simcocks, C. C. McFee, the benefit of the community as T. A_ Coole, G. C. Gale, A. Cecil Teare, his membership of Noble's Hospital .1. Edward Callister, T. A. Corkish, Management committee and his appoint- R. C. Stephen, W. B. Kaneen, E. C. ment as vice-chairman of the Manx Irving and J. B. Bolton, with Mr F. B. Deaf Society bear witness. His parti- Johnson, M.A., Secretary to the House cular interest in music was evidenced of Keys and Clerk to Tynwald. by his work on the committee of the Manx Music Festival and, of course, he was also president 'of the Lan Dhoo APOLOGIES FOR ABSENCE AND Male Voice Choir. Since he was elected to the House of Keys in 1946 as a REPORTS ON SICK MEMBERS member for Douglas South and, after- The Governor: Hon. members of the wards, when he served as a member of Court, apart from apologies from the the Legislative Council, from 1950 to Lord Bishop, who is indisposed, I have 1958 he was, I know, held in affection apologies from Mr A. J. Teare, Mr G. H. and respect by his colleagues. In fact, I Moore.. Mr J. M. Cain and Mr J. L. am sure that every member of the Court Ca'lister, who are also indisposed. The regarded him as a friend whose un- Speaker is. I am glad to say, fully failing good humour sprang from an recovered but his convalescent period inherently pleasant disposition. His is not quite complete but I think he will public service covered a wide range of be on duty, and I am sure you will activities—as Justice of the Peace from welcome it, at the next sitting of Tyn- 1940, as a member of the Education wald. I have good news of Mr Spencer Authority from 1928 until he became a Kelly and he tells me he is on the high member of the Board of Education when road to recovery and will be going home he was elected to the House of Keys, shortly and he expresses to you his and also as chairman of the Education grateful thanks for all the good wishes Authority for two sessions. The Court for his return to good health. • will, I know, wish to send their sym-

Apologies for Absence and Reports on Sick Members.—Tribute to Mr George Higgins—Former Member of the Legislature. 664 TYNWALD COURT, JANUARY 17, 1961 pathy to Mr Higgin's family and join liminary draft of the Tynwald Proce- me in an acknowledgment in this Court dure Bill have been prepared. Whilst of a life which has been freely spent in the final form of these Bills is likely to the service of his fellow men. be affected by recommendations to be made by the Committee appointed to revise Standing Orders, I do not propose STATEMENT BY THE GOVERNOR ON that they should he held up on this PREPARATION OF BILLS account, though I should be grateful to The Governor: There are one of two receive the recommendations of this announcements I have to make, first of committee as soon as possible. Civil all with reference to the position with Service Bill: Within the last few days regard to the preparation of Bills for a reply has been received from the consideration in the branches of Tyn- Home Office to a letter sent in Novem- wald, including in particular the Bills ber last seeking advice as to the consequent upon the Report of the inclusion, or omission, of certain per- MacDermott Commission, has been ex- sons employed in National Health plained in a letter of the 13th December, Service and Education in this Bill. 1960, which I authorised the Attorney- Discussions are also taking place locally General to send to the Acting-Speaker on the inclusion or exclusion of certain of the House of Keys. I understood a other officers. I feel I must stress that copy of this letter has been supplied to the preparation of legislation is only members of both branches. Since that one part of the duties performed by the date some of the Bills included in the Attorney-General's Department and, vast figure of approximately eighty having regard to the great diversity of matters then under consideration for tasks performed by the Attorney- legislative action, have been passed in General_ and his Legal Assistant,. I am the branches, but additional matters satisfied it is not possible for them to requiring legislative action have arisen carry out the many duties of the office —some of which are matters of urgency and also to give the long, uninterrupted —so that the total number of matters time which is essential to prepare the for legislative decision still remains at many Bills at present requiring legisla- least eighty. Of these matters, some tive action, and that it is essential to thirty-six, including the Bills conse- belie the assistance of a legal drafts- quent under the Macnermott Commis- man, until the present backlog of legis- sion Report are the most urgent. With lation is dealt with. I am, therefore. regard to the MacDermott Bills the obtaining the services of a legal drafts- present position is —Police Bill: The man, on a temporary basis, to deal with third draft is completed and is at the this urgent work, for I am emphatic in Home Office for observations, The my . desire to see the implementation of Home Office have promised me to con- the MacDermott Report during the life sider this Bill and send their observa- of the present Legislature. It is a task tions as a .matter of urgency. Civil which it has begun during its lifetime Defence Bill: This Bill has been printed and which it should complete before its and is ready for consideration by the dissolution towards the end of this branches. Home Office observations year, have been received. Finance Board Bill. Observations on this Bill have now been received from the Home UNITED KINGDOM CONTRIBUTION Office. They are very comprehensive —STATEMENT AGREED TO BY and are now being considered. Isle of HOME OFFICE Man Constitution Bill arid Tynwald Pro- cedure Bil,1: Separate Bills are required The Governor: Following on consulta- to deal with these subjects. A second tions with the Legislative Council and draft of the Constitution Bill and a pre- the House of Keys Consultative and

Statement by the Governor on Preparation Of Bills.— United Kingdom Contribution—Statement Agreed to by Home Office. TYNWALD COURT, JANUARY 17. 1961 665'

Finance Committee, I have been Chief Financial Officer and here again authorised by the Home Secretary to there are candidates offering with good make the following statement with qualifications. reference to the Isle of Man contribu- tion to United Kingdom funds: After full consideration of all the factors involved, H.M. Government,. on resolu- PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COURT tion of Tynwald, would be prepared to agree to the continuation of the existing The Governor: I have the honour to contribution at the rate of 5 per cent. lay before the Court:— of the net Common Purse receipts for Payment of Members' Expenses Act, the ensuing five years. H.M. Govern- 1957, Order, 1960. ment are also prepared to regard the rate of 5 per cent, of the net Common Motor Vehicles (Registration and Licen- Purse receipts as the normal rate which sing) Amendment Regulations, would only be varied if it could be 1960. shown by either parties to the agree- Order made bY the Isle of Man Local ment that some significant change in the Government Board constituting relevant circumstances had taken place Dalby Village, Patrick, Drainage which would warrant any variation, In District, the light of this statement I propose to Aliens (Amendment) Regulations, 1960. introduce an appropriate resolution, for the consideration of Tynwald at its next National Health Service (Isle of Man) meeting. (Appointment of Specialists) Regu- lations, 1960. Inheritance (Family Provision) Act, 1959 (Appointed Day) Order. 1961. RADIO MANX—STATEMENT BY (Government Circular No. 1/61), HIS EXCELLENCY Administration of Estates Act, 1960 The Governor: In order to give Radio (Appointed Day) Order, 1961. Manx rather greater flexibility, I have (Government Circular No, 2/61). decided to replace the two Government- Annual Report and Accounts of the Isle nominated directors, who were ap- of Man Tourist Board for the year pointed initially to fulfil the necessary ended 31st March, 1960, together formalities, by a board of directors with the Report of the Public drawn from unofficial sources. The Auditors on the Accounts. gentlemen I have decided to appoint are as follows: Mr T. W. Colebourn, Mr W. Report of the Broadcasting Committee E. Quayle, Mr A. H. Simcocks and Mr of the Isle of Man Tourist Board R, C. Stephen These appointments will for the year ended 31st March, be at pleasure. 1960. Annual Report of the isle of Man Race Committee for the year ended INDUSTRIAL OFFICER— 31st March, 1960. STATEMENT BY HIS EXCELLENCY Report of the Isle of Man Board of Education for the year ended 31st The Governor: Hon. members will be March, 1960. interested to learn I am sure, that upwards of 120 applications have been Report of the Employment Advisory received for the post of Industrial Committee for the year ended 31st Advisory Officer, among whom are a March, 1960. number of candidates with first-rate ; Annual Report and Accounts of the qualifications. Applications are also Isle of Man Water Board for the beginning to come in for the post of year ended 31st March. 1960, to-

Radio Manx—Statement by His Excel ency.—Industrial Officer—Statement by His Excellency.—Papers Laid Before the Court. 666 TYNWALD COURT, JANUARY 17. 1961

gether with the Report of the Public Approval, dated 16th December, 1960, • Auditors on the Accounts, to the following Petition— Summarised Accounts and Public (5) Port St, Mary Village Commis- Auditors' Report of the Hospital sioners for approval of an Agreement Management Committee of the Isle dated 2nd December, 1960, for the sale of Man for the year ended 31st to Messrs Parkinson, Ltd., Builders March, 1959. and Contractors, 1, Athol Street, Dou- Annual Report and Statement of glas, of a plot of land, part of the Port Accounts of the Isle of Man Assess- St. Mary Estate, situate abutting on ment Board for the year endedf 31st Clifton Road, Port St. Mary, containing - March, 1960, and the Auditors' 640 square yards or thereabouts, for the Report. sum of E250. And approval to the following Petition s:— BILLS FOR SIGNATURE (1) Peel Town Commissioners for authority to borrow a sum not exceed- The Governor: And now under item 2 ing £140, at a rate of interest not on the agenda the following Bills are for exceeding £5 per centum per annum, signature. repayable within five years. to defray The Agriculture (Poisonous Sub- the Petitioners' proportion of the cost of stances) Bill, carrying out a scheme for renovating Fatal Accidents Bill. and repairing the path alongside the River Neb, also the paths on Peel Hill, Therupeutic Substances Bill. and providing seats therefor. Coroners of Inquests Bill, (2) Peel Town Commissioners for Variation of Trusts Bill. authority to borrow a sum not exceed- The Bills were signed. ing £850, at a rate of interest not exceeding E5 per centum per annum, repayable within 20 years, to defray the Petitioners' proportion of the cost of ROYAL ASSENT TO ACTS constructing a" slipway on to the Peel The Governor: I have to announce foreshore from Shore Road (opposite that the Royal Assent has been given to Bridge Street). the following Acts:— (3) Peel Town Commissioners for Entertainment Duty Act, 7960. approval of an Agreement dated 12th Income Tax (No. 2) Act, 1960. November, 1960, for the purchase from Cruelty to Animals (Abandonment) Ernest Stanley Cannel], trustee of the Act, 1960. will of George Cannell, deceased, of a plot of land at the junction of Stanley Road and Christian Street, for the sum of £.15 for road-widening purposes. RADIO MANX—GOVERNOR (4) Pee) Town Commissioners for CORRECTS INITIALS OF authority to borrow a sum not exceed- MEMBER ing £110, at a rate of interest not The Governor: Gentlemen, if you feel exceeding £5 per centum per annum, in any doubt with reference to the repayable within five years, to defray announcement I made this morning in the Petitioners' proportion of the cost of connection with Radio Manx I feel I carrying out a scheme for the widening ought to point out that, fortunately, of the junction of Stanley Road and there is only one T. H. Colebourn- .Christian Street, Peel, including the (A Member: Thank goodness)—and, purchase of the land referred to in therefore the name should read T. H. Petition (3), Colebourn and not T. W. Colebourn.

Bills for Signature.—Royal Assent to Acts.—Radio Manx—Governor Corrects Initials of Member. TYNWALD COURT, JANUARY 17. 19131 661

TRANSPORT FACILITIES AT vices in the comparatively near future , FLEETWOOD—QUESTION BY unless the wharves were rebuilt. The MR STEPHEN present quays will be available to the Steam Packet Company in 1961, but no The Governor: Now, gentlemen, we will proceed to the question paper. I guarantee can be made as to their avail- call upon the hon. member for Douglas ability thereafter. The estimated cost South, Mr Stephen. of the rebuilding is likely to be of the order of £700,000, The Steam Packet Mr Stephen: I directed certain ques- Company do not consider Heysham a tions to Your Excellency and written possible alternative and, if the worst answers have been circulated, for which came to the worst, they would be pre- I thank Your Excellency. The questions pared to operate in Fleetwood from one were: Will Your Excellency lay before berth only, although this would the Court a summary of the negotiations seriously affect their Saturday sailings. that have taken place between your Excellency and your Executive Council Approaches were made to a large on the one hand and the British Trans- number of organisations and many port Commission. the Isle of Man Steam showed keen interest, but, save for the Packet Company, Ltd., and the Fleet- Steam Packet Company, stated that they wood Town Council on the other hand were unable to assist financially. The in respect of port facilities at Fleet- availability of port facilities for passen- wood? Will Your Excellency also lay ger steamers at Fleetwood is,. of course, before the Court copies of all corres- of great value to the Isle of Man, pondence which has passed between the particularly in that it makes it possible above mentioned. parties on the subject? for considerable numbers of day visitors Will Your Excellency indicate to the to come to the Island (1960-41,000) as Court if Your Excellency and your Exe- well as a smaller number of those who cutive Council have decided whether stay some time in the Island before or not to recommend to Tynwald Court returning to England. The Island any expenditure by the Isle of Man Government considers that the present Government towards the cost of main- state of the wharves is due to inade- taining the port facilities at Fleetwood quate maintenance in the past. Few for the handling of Isle of Man tourist repairs could be done during the war traffic subsequent to the 1961 season? when the port had been heavily worked, and no steps were taken to build up a The Governor: Discussions on the fund from dues received from port users future of Fleetwood Harbour first took during the war to pay for proper repairs place between representatives of the being carried out at the end of hostili- Steam Packet Company and the British ties. The Island Government considers Transport Docks Commission in Feb- that the responsibility for the recon- ruary, 1959. My predecessor, with struction of the wharves lies wholly representatives of Executive Council, with the British Transport Docks, It is met Sir Robert Letch, the chairman of noted that very costly improvements British Transport Docks, in May, 1959, are envisaged at Weymouth: it has not and I had a similar meeting at which been suggested that the Channel Islands representatives of the Steam Packet should contribute towards that cost. Company were also present in October. The present berths are 60 years old and 1960; the matter was also discussed with their life is now practically over. The representatives of Fleetwood Town problem is one of reconstruction, not of Council in February, 1960. I would repair, and the difficulty which British summarise the position as follows: The Transport Docks has to overcome is the British Transport Docks have intimated provision of the capital cost of that that they would have to close down reconstruction. They have asked that Fleetwood for passenger steamship ser- about 50 per cent, of the capital should

Transport Facilities at Fleetwood — Questions by Mr Stephen. 668 TYNWALD COURT, JANUARY 17, 1961 be made available to them: if this was the Ramsey Town Commissioners? (7) provided it was likely that arrange- Have the Ramsey Town Commissioners ments for financing the balance could be submitted to the Isle of Man Local made between the Commission and the Government Board any scheme for the Steam Packet Company. The Steam development of the area? (8) If so, Packet Company have already made an what is the nature of the scheme and offer. The answer to the second part of has it been approved by the Board? the question is in the negative. I am now discussing the matter with the The chairman replied: (1) The Com- Home Office and am not yet in a posi- missioners have acquired 1311 properties, tion to answer this part of the hon. 71 of which have been demolished. The member's question. At the same time it figure of 71 includes ten properties is apposite to state noi:v that to make a demolished in the winter of 1960 by way direct subsidy for the reconstruction of docks which are not situated on Manx of a Government grant of 100 per cent. soil involves a principle which could of ther. cost voted to the Isle of Man establish a highly undesirable pre- Harbour Board for the purpose. (2) In cedent. June, 1936, when Tynwald voted a sum not exceeding £3,000 as a contribution of 50 per cent of the cost of purchasing and demolishing 90 old houses in the SOUTH RAMSEY CLEARANCE AREA town of Ramsey, Before that date the QUESTION BY MR STEPHEN Commissioners had purchased and The Governor: I call on the hon. demolished 21 old houses in Ramsey member for Douglas South, who has a and the whole of the cost thereof was series of questions for the chairman of borne by rating. Since June, 1936, 109 the Local Government Board. old properties have been purchased and fifty demolished. (3) Excluding Queen's Mr Stephen: This is in much the same Promenade and Church Street approxi- position, Your Excellency. I directed mately 90 more properties will be questions to the chairman of the Local required. (4) The amount expended by Government Board. Replies have been the Commissioners to date on the pur- circulated, for which I thank the hon. chase of 109 old properties is £13,239 chairman. 4s 5d; the cost of demolishing 40 pro- perties is £4,999 is 6d, totalling £18,238 The questions and answers were:— 5s 11d; less Government grant, £6,702 Mr Stephen asked: (1) How many 13s 2d; amount expended by Isle of properties have been acquired by the Man Harbour Board in respect of vote Ramsey Town Commissioners in the of £1,500 for demolition of houses on area known as the South Ramsey behalf of the Commissioners, £1,116 2s Clearance Area? (2) When were the 6d; totalling £7,818 15s 8d. Net cost to first properties acquired? (3) How the Commissioners, £10,419 1053d, (5) many properties remain to be acquired Government grant to 31st March, ,1960 by the Ramsey Town Commissioners to (excluding the vote of £1,116 2s 6d to complete the clearance of the area? (4) the Isle of Man Harbour Board) What expenditure has been incurred by amounted to £6,702 13s 2d. (6) By the Ramsey Town Commissioners in resolution of Tynwald. (7) Yes, .(8) In purchasing the properties already 1957, a scheme for the erection of two acquired? (5) What is the total amount shops on Church Street frontage and of grant made by Tynwald Court to- six houses and ten flats on King Street wards the expenditure incurred by the frontage, which forms the pait known Ramsey Town Commissioners to date? as Section "A" of the proposed develop- (6) Under what authority have grants ment area, was submitted to the Isle of for purchasing properties been made to Man Local Government Board and

South Ramsey Clearance Area—Question by Mr Stephen, TYNWALD COURT. JANUARY 17, 1961 669

approved provisionally. The Commis- the catering arrangements at these two sioners decided to amend the scheme by establishments are based upon informa- omitting shops and providing and pro- tion which 1 have received from the two viding houses in place of fiats and the schools. The answers to the four ques- plan of the amended scheme, which pro- tions are no, for the very good reason vides for the erection of six houses and that the facts alleged in the questions one flat on the Church Street frontage are quite untrue. Now the questions and nine houses on King Street frontage have combined King William's College received the approval of the Planning and the Buchan School, but the facts are Committee on 19th December, 1960. not exactly the same in the case of both The purchase during the past year of schools. King William's College em- the properties Nos. 7, 9 and 11, Church ployed a firm of catering experts in Street, towards which a Government September, 1959, and the Buchan School grant of 50 per cent, but not exceeding made arrangements with the same firm £1,500 was voted on lath October, 1960, of experts for the term beginning to- has enabled the Commissioners to pro- day. Nevertheless, the policy which will vide for increased accommodation on be pursued will be very largely the Church Street frontage. same as that at King William's College. The answer to question No. 1 is no, be- cause the catering firm are employed to provide a catering service and in return CATERING AT KING WILLIAM'S the firm are paid a fixed management COLLEGE AND BUCHAN SCHOOL— fee. Wages of the catering staff are QUESTION BY MR COLEBOURN paid and all catering requirements are The Governor: I now call on the hon. purchased by the College and the member for Castletown, Mr T. H. Buchan School themselves. The answer to question No. 2 is no, because the Colebourn. policy of both schools is to purchase as Mr Colebourn: Your Excellency, I beg much foodstuffs in the Island as pos- to ask the four questions standing in sible. Indeed, in the case of King my name, directed to the hon. vice- William's College, it has been possible chairman of the Board of Education: (1) to increase that percentage to 93.4 per Is he aware that King William's College cent, of goods purchased in the and the Buchan School are now pur- Island— chasing all of their catering require- ments from an English firm? (2) Is he Members: Hear. hear. aware that the economy of many small traders in Castletown has been seriously Mr Simcocks: And I am informed affected by the decision of the above that the position will be the same in the establishments to • purchase foodstuffs case of the Buchan School. The only off the Island? (3) Is he aware that items of foodstuffs purchased off the both the educational establishments Island are tea, fish and a patent flour mentioned enjoy considerable benefits mix which is unobtainable in the from the ratepayers of Castletown due Island, Everything else is purchased in to the fact that both establishments do the 'Island. In the case of the Buchan not 'contribute to the town rates? (4) School,. all the Manx purchases are Is not he aware that King William's through tradesmen in Castletown, with College and the Buchan School for Girls the exception of fruit and vegetables, both receive considerable Government eggs and milk, and all those items were financial assistance each year? never in fact purchased in Castletown and have continued to be purchased Mr . Simcocks: Your Excellency, I from the same sources as before. In think I should say to begin with that the case of King William's College there the answers I will give with regard to must be added to that list tinned goods

Catering at• King William's College and Buchan School — Question by Mr Colebourn.

070 TYNWALD COURT, JANUARY 17, 1961

and whole milk powder, also certain Buchan School, it does receive Govern- preserves, margarine, biscuits, yeast, ment assistance because it is a grant syrup and the like. They get them on aided school and has been since 1929. It the Island, but not in Castletown. On receives assistance in consideration of 9 the other side of the picture I could say the fact that 10 per cent, of its annual that where as in the past bacon has been intake shall be in free places. purchased after it has been imported into the Island, the position now is that Mr Colebourn: I should like to thank every single ounce of bacon is Manx the hon. learned vice-chairman of the bacon. Every ounce of flour comes Board of Education for his replies—as from Laxey- opposed to answers, and I should like Members: Hear, hear. to ask a supplementary question. Your Mr Simcocks: Every ounce of oatmeal Excellency, if I may. consumed comes from the Sulby Mills. Every ounce of cheese which is con- The Governor: Certainly. sumed is Manx made, and every ounce of lard comes from our own bacon Mr Colebourn: Is he aware that the factory. Every effort is made as far as Island's one and only jam factory has possible to buy Manx. Now my reply lost £1,000 worth of turnover with King to question No. 3 is also no, because William's College placing its catering under section 95 of the Education Act, contract off the Island? 1949,. all secondary schools which are not conducted for private profit are Mr Simcocks: I have no knowledge of exempt from payment of rates, Even if the internal arrangements of that this were not so, the people of Castle- particular factory, Your Excellency. town would not benefit by the payment (Laughter.) of rates by both these establishments, Mr Farr ant: May I have permission to because I am happy to say that King ask a supplementary question, Your William's College is still in the parish Excellency? of Malew and not in Castletown, how- ever much the hon. member may wish The Governor: Certainly. it to be there. (Laughter.) The answer to question No. 4 is again no, King Mr Farrant: Will the chairman of the William's College, in fact, does not now Board of Education inform Tynwald receive considerable, or indeed, any whether the new catering arrangements financial assistance from the Isle already mentioned have resulted in the of Man Government. There was a restricted use of fresh milk at King period between 1933 and 1947 when William's College, and whether this the College was grant aided, but reduced use of fresh milk, which I am since 1947 it has been and continues given to understand is 15 gallons per to be, independent. What does happen day less than under the old arrange- is this, a given number of Board of Edu- ment, has or will result in the use of cation scholarships are awarded each imported dried milk powder or other year. A number of scholars at college imported milk substitutes? If the have their fees paid by the Board of answers to either or both parts of the Education. Similarly, the sum of £80 is question are in the affirmative, does he paid in open scholarships to Manx consider that this action of the trustees students and 415 a year is paid to the of King William's College is an incen- parents of Manx students. None of tive to Manx farmers, who produce a these payments, I think, could be re- first-class product which has come from ferred to as Government assistance to attested herds; and whether the use of the school, particularly as I am in- i-nilk substitutes in the College is in the formed there is a waiting list for College best interests of the health of the at this moment. In the case of the pupils?

Catering at King William's College and Buchan School — Question by Mr Colebourn. TYNWALD COURT, JANUARY 17, 1961 " 671

Mr Simcocks: May I first thank the The Governor: Certainly. hon. chairman of the Board of Agricul- ture for having given me notice of this Mr McFee: The hon. member in his supplementary question, which has reply said that new catering arrange- given me an opportunity of making ments had resulted in an increase of further inquiries. In fact, no restric- Manx purchases to the figure of 93.4 tion as such is made in the use of liquid per cent. Could he tell us what was the milk in college. It is true to say there original figure prior to this catering has been a reduction in the consumption arrangement being made? of liquid milk to about 15 gallons. Pre- Mr Simcocks: I cannot give that vious consumption was about 55 gallons answer, Your Excellency. a day and at present it is approximately 40 gallons. It is also true that the The Acting-Speaker: As a supple- caterers do in fact use milk powder— mentary, Your Excellency, was any about ft gallons per day—but this: I Insular catering firm given an oppor- am informed, is whole cream milk tunity to tender for the catering at the powder, and not milk substitute,. and is Buchan School used exclusively for milk puddings. Mr Simcocks: No they were not, With regard to part 2. I am sure the hon, Your Excellency. member will not wish me to express an opinion—in view of Standing Orders— Mr Quayle: May I ask a supplemen- but I can say this, that the milk powder tary question, Your Excellency. Since is full cream and is not substitute for we have learned from the vice-chairman milk, I think it might be fairly stated of the Board that this job is now being that it is for the trustees of King done by English contractors, pre- William's College to make their own sumably it is making a profit in Eng- decision in this matter. I can say this land. May I ask if they therefore also, I have spoken to the manager of become liable to Manx income tax? the catering firm and he informs me that Mr Simcocks: I would be happy to it is intended to use only liquid milk at answer the question if I get notice of it. the Buchan School. Deemster Kneale; Or if they get a Lt.-Cdr. Quine: May I ask a supple- profit. (Laughter.) mentary question, Your Excellency? The Governor: Certainly. Lt.-Cdr. Quine: Will the hon. vice- LOCAL GOVERNMENT DISTRICTS— chairman check his statement with REQUEST FOR APPOINTMENT OF regard to the rating of King William's COMMISSION TO EXAMINE College and the Buchan School? To my RECOMMENDATIONS OF LOCAL knowledge, these particular schools as • • GOVERNMENT DISTRICTS such were always rated. In 1935 a (ADMINISTRATION) COMMISSION.. special Act was brought in to exempt 1949 the Buchan School and King William's The Governor: Item No. 5 on the College from rates. If he would just agenda, I call on the hon, member for check his statement. Castletown. Mr Simcocks: I would be happy to Mr Colebourn: I beg to move the investigate the position and will inform following resolution:— the hon. and gallant member as soon as Whereas the Local Government Districts I have had an opportunity of checking (Administration) Commission issued its I:3e- port on 27th October, 1949, recommending that. inter alia the reduction of the number of local authorities and the extension of the Mr McFee: Could I ask a supplemen- boundaries of certain of the local authorities tary question, Your Excellency? in the Isle of Man,

Local Government Districts—Request for Appointment of Commission to Examine Recommendations of Local Government Districts (Administration) Commission, 1949 672 TYNWALD COURT, IANUARY 17, 1961

And whereas, following a. debate on 16th of family illness and my understanding May. 1950. Tynwald received but did not adopt the said Report. is that the Bill was put in the hands of And whereas there is now a continuing and the hon. member for Douglas West, Mr growing need to effect economy and greater Bolton. efficiency in Local Government in view of the ever-rising costs of labour and administration, Mr McFee: And that finished it. the capital expense of modern labour-saving equipment, and the greater variety and com- (Laughter.) plexity of public services. Resolved,—that Tynwald requests His Ex- Mr Colebourn: It may have nothing to cellency the Lieutenant-Governor to appoint do with the vote; I do not know. MY/ a Commission of five persons to examine the resolution, Your Excellency, is that this said Report in the light of present-day condi- tions and future trends, and to take such Court should appoint a commission to further evidence as they deem necessary and again examine the Corrin Commission's to report whether the recommendations con- tained in the said Report, with or without Report in the light of present-day modifications, should now be implemented, conditons and modern trends. There and to make such further or additional re- are many members of the Court commendations as they deem desirable, present to-day who took part in the Your Excellency, the resolution has debate ten years ago, and it is no part been on the agenda for, I think, a of this resolution to criticise in any couple of Tynwalds so I hope the Court way the arguments put forward at that will excuse me if I do not recite the time either for or against. Conditions terms of the resolution. I would, how- in the Island ten years ago were very ever, point out that there is one altera- much different from what they are to- tion from my original resolution in day and, of course, the composition of which the word "committee" was used. the Legislature is also somewhat dif- Tocay I am asking not for a committee erent. In 1949, our national Exchequer but for a commission and I will explain was in a much more robust state than it the reasons for the alteration later on. is to-day and we could "afford" to be inefficient. (Dissent.) All right, there Mr Nivison: It says "commission. are many examples of this in the past ten years but in 1949 nobody was aware The Governor: It was an amendment of the tremendous onslaught which was from the previous agenda. shortly to be made on our income by the Health and Social Services and all the Mr Colebourn: Now, sir, the Local many other services which Government Government Districts (Administration) is called upon to perform. I have used Commission issued its report in October the phrase "we could afford to be ineffi- 1949, and it was received by Tynwald cient." I do not want the Court to think in May, 1950. A Bill dealing with the that I want to turn the Island into recommendations of the Report failed a highly-efficient economic machine. on its second reading in the House of Heaven forbid. The.Island and, in fact, Keys. However, the vote was close with' any country would be horrible to live in 11 votes for and nine against, under such conditions. Indeed, sir, I Mr Stephen: On the second reading? think it is our very inefficiency that Surely it was nine for and 11 against? endears our Island home. (Laughter.) But I do think we are stretching this Mr Colebourn: I beg your pardon, inefficiency a bit much when we con- that is so. I am not going to burden the sider that, for a population of 54,000 Court with. a recapitulation of the people we have 26 local government debate except to say that the hon. districts, four towns, five village dis- member, Mr Kelly,. who is unfortunately tricts and 17 parish districts. And all absent to-day, was in charge of the Bill these to serve an area of 227 square but he had to leave the House halfway miles. Leaving out the Borough of through, having to go away on account Douglas which; because of it impor-

Local Government Districts—Request for Appointment of Commission to Examine Recommendations of Local Government Districts (Administration) Commission, 1949. TYNWALD COURT, JANUARY 17, 1961 673 lance and population, must be con- Mr Nivison: Make it part of Castle- sidered separately, each of the town and town. village district commissioners—except Michael and Laxey—employ a whole- Mr Colebourn: A rate of a penny in time clerk. The Michael and Laxey- the pound brings, in the Michael village districts and each of the Village District, a revenue cif barely parishes employ a part-time clerk only. £20. In many of the parishes the clerk has a Mr Crowe: What are you worrying full!-time occupation, in some cases out- about, 'side the parish and he is, therefore only available for parish commissioners' Mr Colebourn: Under the Local "dlities in the evenings. Of the three Government (Special Drainage Dis- town and five village districts only two tricts) Act of 1952 the Local Govern- of the towns have qualified public health ment Board took over the sewerage inspectors, disposal works in all the parish districts except Malew, Lonan, Arbory and Mr Gale: Peel is one, Rushen. In the two latter districts. however,, sewage disposal schemes have Mr Colebourn: Yes, that is one of the since been put into operation in other two. It is regrettable in the modern parts of these parishes by the Local age-- Government Board so: therefore, in • Mr Nivison: You are saying they these two parishes there are, at present, should all have one. two drainage authorities. Although cer- tain of the parish commissioners re- Mr Colebourn: Not all. Under the tained their sewage disposal works. the Local Government Act of 1949 the Local Government Board had to arrange public health dillies, in the districts of for the emptying . of the tanks and these • local authorities which do not general supervision of the works, as the employ qualified inspectors, are carried commissioners have not staff to do this out by the inspectors of the Local work. As each of the parish commis- Government Board without charge to sioners only employ a part-time clerk, the local authorities. Reverting to the all the duties of inspecting premises, parish districts, the salaries paid by alleged to be unsatisfactory: investi- the parish commissioners to their res- gating complaints of nuisances and pective part-time clerks are as low as other public health duties, fall on the £27 Per annum each, although in the inspectors of the Local Government three largest parishes the salaries are Board, and the same position arises in each Over •£150 per annum. In one the town of Castietown and the village parish district, where the Commis- districts of Port Erin, Port St. Mary, sioners are also the housing and drain- Onchan, Laxey and Michael. age authority, the clerk, who is a quali- fied accountant, receives a salary of Mr Nivison: Why look at me like £409 a year. This officer, however, has that? to defray the cost of a part-time assis- tant out of his salary. Mr Colebourn: You are the King of Onchan. Under the Rating and Valua- , Mr Gale: Where is this? Why not tell tion Act of 1953 the Assessment Board its? . may„at the request of the Commis- sioners of any Local Government dis- •Mr Colebourn: It is not understand- trict collect the general district rate, or able why Michael village, which has a special district rate, levied by such Com- population of, only 371 people and a missioners under the Local Government rateable value of £4,743 was ever con- Acts and, to date, six of the Parish stituted a village. district. Commissioners have so requested the

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Assessment Board to collect their Mr Gale: Through the Parish Com- rates. The powers and duties of the missioners. smaller local authorities are gradually being taken away from them, not be- Mr Colebourn: Up to twenty years cause the authorities so wish, but be- ago there were nine different water cause they have neither the staff nor the authorities serving the needs of the resources satisfactorily to carry out Island, some of which were private their statutory duties. Of the 17 parishes limited companies; now there are only only one, when the opportunity was two authorities. In January of this year given to them in 1945, decided to be a the Local Government Board. became functioning housing authority. This has the Fire Authority for the whole Island meant that the Local Government Board outside Douglas, thus reducing the has been made the housing authority number of fire authorities from seven for 16 out of the 17 parishes and has to two. Local authorities are having to had to meet the need for houses for rely more and more on the Government these districts, The Local Government for help and no major schemes can be Board is also the housing authority for carried out without substantial contri- two of the village districts. The Com- butions being made by the Government missioners of the various districts, and to the capital cost of them. The tendency especially the parish commissioners, are is more and more for centralisation and by force of circumstances gradually it would seem desirable now to make a being deprived of their powers and, as start on local government administra- regards parish districts, the only powers tion. As the first step I suggest the which will shortly be left to them will number of local authorities should be be the collection of refuse and the reduced. At present they are out of all levying of rates. They can only do the proportion to the size and population of latter with the approval of the Local the Island. Finally, the Court has Government Board. Concerning refuse recently. adopted legislation to en- collection, even this comes under a courage ,permanent residents to come to central authority, as the work of super- our shores and I know there is no need vising the refuse tips falls on the to remind Your Excellency and hon. inspectors of the Local Government members that freedom from surtax in Board. The Highway and Trans- itself will not attract many people. port Board is the road authority in all There must also be other amenities, the parish districts and in some of the otherwise, Your. Excellency, the North village districts, notably Onchan Pole will be over-populated because village, Some of the other Town and there is no income tax at all there. Village District Commissioners, who (Laughter.) We must give the whole are at present the ro-nd authority in Island a first-class spring clean. I am their particular district, consider that shortly going to move another resolu- the Highway and Transport Board tion to put forward the first point of my should be the road authority for the five-year plan. whole of the Island—(hear, hear)— except Douglas. I am looking at the Mr Kaneen: Your plan? angry faces of the hon. members facing me but I would except the Douglas Mr Colebourn: That spring clean Town Council, could form part of that five-year plan. Ordinary running repairs in towns and Mr Corkish: We Are all for villages are far beyond the finances of the local authorities and must in conse- Mr Colebourn: Street and road light- quence be the responsibility of the ing has, in effect, been centralised in the central Government. I would ask the rural_ areas by the Isle of Man Elec- Court to support this resolution, re- tricity Board. membering that it is a resolution which

■■■••■ ■■■•■•■ •••■••HM...... I. Local Government Districts—Request for Appointment of Commission to Examine Recommendations of Local Government Districts (Administration) Commission, 1949. TYNWALD COURT, JANUARY 17, 1961 675 only calls for a commission to investi- already in the past two committees or gate the matter. The Report of the commissions have sat upon the whole Corrin Commission on this subject question and considered local govern- deserved a far better fate than it got ment economy i Tithe Island and recom- ten years ago. This Report is one of the mendations very similar to what is con- finest I have read in the short time I tained in this resolution are in the other have been concerned in legislation, I Report which the hon. member has would like hon. members to remember referred to as the Corrin Report," I that any legislation on this is not likely believe it would be a complete waste of to come before the Court until after time and I think the best thing to do is the next election. I will now give my to pass it to the Executive Council to reason for changing the original resolu- consider the principle contained in that tion from a committee to a commission. Report and embodied in this present I thought this investigation should be lifted out of the realms of election resolution. I feel that it is possible to topics. I want the commission to be make progress in this direction without People as remote as possible from local abolishing parish commissioners or any government. I want all members to be other commissioners. I think an free to listen to the electorate and make amalgamation could be effected at once. a wise decision. I feel we have to have Consider the question of Island develop- a tremendous amount of Centralisation ment. Take the South. You have Port not only in local government but in so St. Mary, a small village which is very many things before we can even con- effective in running the visiting indus- sider this Island an economic unit in try in the district. You also have Port any sense. Erin and these villages come forward from time to time with small develop- Mr Edward Callister: 1 have great ment schemes within their own ability pleasure in seconding the resolution and to pay for them. It means that real in congratulating the hon. member on large-scale developn-ient cannot be the enlightened outlook on Island policy effected in our small villages and small which he has adopted which is one very resorts because of lack of finance. dear to the heart of the Party to which Therefore, I suggest that already it is I belong. This resolution is an exceed- possible without altering the present ingly good one because it can only lead set-up of commissioners to effect some to economy and efficiency. I do not amalgamation of certain regions. Take think any member of the Court who is the case of development and the block not saturated in parish pump politics vote and the share to the different can oppose it. It is our policy that there localities. I live in the parish of Arbory should be centralisation of local govern- but the largest amount of my business ment in the Island and we advocate one is in Port Erin, Port St. Mary and county council for the Island with a Castletown. From time to time these system by which the authorities of each people are rated for development pur- district may have their say. I have poses. They pay a special rate for cer- pleasure in seconding the resolution. tain schemes they produce. They can be rated up to 9d in the pound for develop- Mr MeFee: I wish to move an amend- ment of the visiting industry, of which ment to this resolution. It is that it I and others in Arbory and Rushen should read, "Tynwald requests His parishes share the benefits. We share Excellency and the Executive Council," the prosperity which results from it but instead of reading ". . to appoint a pay nothing towards it. I think that commission of five members." My is wrong in principle. I feel that people reason for this amendment is this: I who live in other parishes, who share believe it would be a complete waste of the prosperity of these resorts should be time to set up another commission as brought in and amalgamated with the

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people who pay rates for the specific The Governor: To clear my mind as purpose of development. Your Exeel- to the amendment. It would read "That lency and the Executive Council will Tynwald requests His Excellency the allocate to different sections of the Lieutenant-Governor and the Executive Island the money which is their share Council to examine the said Report „ for development in that area which I believe — take again the South— for Mr McFee: Yes, Your Excellency, development should be considered on a That would leave it quite open. regional basis. I said Port St. Mary Mr Stephen: Does he not want them and Port Erin come forward with little to take evidence? schemes and under this system they could come forward with larger develop- Mr McFee: If necessary. If the Exe- ment plans—one in Port St. Mary and cutive Council wish to take evidence one in Port Erin perhaps. A develop- have no objection. Let them get in- ment area could be mapped out for that formation from wherever they like. purpose and everyone living in that area Mr Nivison: I am against both the would contribute by rates or otherwise. amendment which has not yet been I think that is fair and there is no seconded and the resolution whith reason why it could not be done with seems to have some support. One of the set-up as it is at present. The the main reasons I am opposed is that Executive Council could produce policy many times this Court has considered —it is a policy-producing body or should different resolutions as to what they be—and study the question and go into should do with certain sections of the allocation of funds without upset- society. They want registration and ting the present arrangement. This grading of boarding houses, they want things regarding agriculture and so on could be effected at once without any and they generally fail lamentably be- alteration of statutes. We have a cause invariably they have not taken matter before the Local Government into consultation the people on whom Board at present—the question of pro- they propose to inflict or _impose the viding flatlets for old people, parti- change. I believe it is quite wrong for cularly in the South. It may be that this Court to impose on sections of this unit will be established in either society in the Island a new Method of Port St. Mary, Port Erin or Castletown doing something without a complete but wherever it is it will meet the heeds consultation vs,rith the people concerned for the whole area. I think develop- and without the production of any evi- ment of this kind should be considered dence. I was most interested in the - on a regional basis. The resolution remarks of the proposer of the resolu- before us I think is based on the Report tion. He dealt with the tendency to which was debated many years ago in centralise administration with regard this Court and I do feel it would be a to sanitation, road work and lighting. sheer waste of time to put it again to None of us would oppose that, but the a commission and dilly-dally for great army of voluntary workers in the months and argue and take evidence. particular areas who are doing such an I have pleasure in moving the amend- enormous amount of work—and here ment that instead of the whole question might be accused of parish pump work going to a commission that it be passed because I have been a member of a local to Your Excellency and the Executive authority, as have many other members Council so that - you May consider the of this Court, and they have to be con- broad principle laid down and the ques- sidered. They are in constant touch tion of achieving its aims without up- with the people, and they are better able setting the statutory set-up we have at to deal with the particular requirements the present time. of their paeticular locality than some

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central body, My hon. friend, Mr Cole- ing to your constituents in many areas bourn, did not go into too much detail that very shortly you will be advocating lest it should not meet with the desired centralisation whereby your particular requirements of some members of this area would be taken over by these other, Court. The suggestions are, of course, shall we say, highly efficient dis- that Douglas should swallow up all of tricts"-- its neighbours, Braddan, Santon, On- chan Village and the parishes; that Peel Mr McFee: Who looks after the roads should swallow up Glenfaba, Crosby and the like, and that in the south of the in Onchan? Island we should have one authority; do not know what you would call it- Mr Nivison: The Highway and Trans- Rushen perhaps—and it would swallow port Board, quite rightly, and we say up Port Erin, Port St. Mary, Arbory, they do a very good job and they im- Malew, Castletown and the like— pose a rate for doing it. It is well known to us that the ratepayers in any A Member: And Ballasalla. district pay for the maintenance of their roads and a higher proportion of the Mr Nivison: Yes, and Ballasalla and amount comes from taxation rather Ramsey should take in her neighbours. than from the rate which is levied Now, many people when they built locally. And we do not welcome any houses did so in rural areas mainly be- suggestion that there should be a right cause the rates were cheaper and these to impose upon people something they people are not desirous of having a might not desire. We do not say to great swim pool in their area; they do Castletown, for instance, "we are going not want to have their streets so_ to take over your roads," but we are brightly illuminated; they do not want quite willing to negotiate to see if it is the services which Douglas requires desirable that it should be done. These because of the visiting industry; they things should not be imposed on autho- have chosen to live in certain areas and rities but it is quite proper to consult they elect their representatives in a authorities on these matters. We con- certain way, and one of the great advan- demn certain countries, particularly in tages of having certain of these local Eurore,. for imposing their form of authorities is that they can live more living upon their near neighbours; we cheaply. It might be highly desirable believe in freedom and democracy, and for Big Brother Douglas to say "If we on those grounds I would urge this can spread our wings we can lessen the Court to reject completely and abso- amount which our own ratepayers will lutely this resolution and the amend- have to pay because we can spread it ment. There has been no major com- among the people we take over." Make plaint against these local authorities no mistake about it. That will be the beyond the fact that they are charging object,. the main object of the opera- a small rate and they are only employ- tion— ing a part-time man, If you pass the resolution then you will take away the Mr Kaneen: And why should that not personal touch which is given by these be when you earn your living in Dou- authorities, and I submit that one of our glas. great characteristics is that we are a local community. This . resolution has Mr Nivison: That is a typical argu- really arisen because of a Bill I intro- ment; it is an argument which has been duced recently into the House of Keys brought forward by a representative of in order that the term "commissioner" the Douglas Town Council, and I would should be changed to the word "coun- say to members of the Court, "Beware, cillor." The Keys thought it undesir- if you support this resolution or the able and so the Bill fell, and I accepted amendment you will, in effect, be say- that, but during the debate several

Local Government Districts—Request for Appointment of Commission to Examine Recommendations of Local Government Districts (Administration) Commission, 1949. f578 TYN)ATALD COURT, JANUARY 17. 1961 members said "Although we do not want rnent which was suggested by the to change the name we want to sweep chairman of the Local Government away many of these small authorities." Board and whilst 1 feel it is taking Some of you wished that, but there were a sledgehammer to crack a nut to others who hoped that local thugs suggest that a Commission should be would continue to be done by local set up (I am a member of the Executive people and I would urge the Court to Council, as the Court Knows, and I am reject both the resolution and the not saying this because I want to avoid amendment. work) but I feel that the proper body to deal with the matter is the Local Mr Bolton: Your Excellency, I have Government. Board. They are there set listened with considerable interest to up as a Board to have full knowledge the speeches which have been made on of the financial affairs of all the local this subject, but I am rather staggered authorities, and to control their actions by the hon, member for Middle who in certain ways and to report to says "we should not impose these Government what authorities should be things." Surely these things were im- posed upon them in the first place when given loans. They should know the full the local authorities were set up. The facts whereas the Executive Council local authorities were established to would have to be told and I would like deal with certain matters and there can to move a further amendment, if I can be no doubt whatever about it, the get any support, that instead of the whole idea of local authority is the Executive Council being the body it administration of certain areas but should be the Local Government Board conditions have changedi considerably to inquire and examine the said Report in the last hundred years. Transport —and did the first amendment say "and and communications are so different report to Tynwald"— there can be no doubt that conditions which existed then are so different Members: Yes. that the whole set-tip should be re- considered to-day, and I do not think Mr Bolton: And then report to Tyn- the argument which has been put for- wald their findings on the matter and I ward by the hon. member for Middle is feel sure the Board are the correct really valid at all, but I heard the hon. people to examine the matter in the member for Douglas North mention light of present conditions. a county council for the Isle of Man and he mentioned "we," and if he meant LE-Cdr. Quine: Your Excellency, I am by "we" the Labour Party, then it against the resolution and I am also would be enough to frighten anyone off! against the amendment moved by the Different areas have different interests, hon. member for Rushen, Mr McFee- but whether they should be as small as Mr Farrant: Your Excellency, has they are.and as hard up as they are, and there been a seconder to the amend- whether or not their efficiency could be ment? improved by a grouping of certain of the authorities and an extension of certain The Governor: To neither amendment boundaries-- yet. Mr Edward Canister: The whole of Lt.-Cdr. Quine: So far as the mover the Island could be put into a suburb of the resolution is concerned I do not of Liverpool. know whether the Court knows whether he was in favour of his resolution or Mr Bolton: It might make all the not; I could not quite make out whether difference in the world. I have been he was for centralisation or against it. thinking carefully of the amend- but I did appreciate his appreciation of

Local Government Districts—Request for Appointment of Commission to Examine Recommendations of Local Government Districts (Administration) Commission, 1949. TYNWALD COURT, JANUARY 17, 1961 679

the fact that high efficiency is a cold- Deernster Kneale: They are non- blooded thing after all. He made that functioning. quite clear and in the Isle of Man we can afford to have some inefficiency. It Mr Irving: Yes_ they are non-function- is an astounding thing to me, and I am ing and the reason is that these small surprised that many members did not authorities have not the money to do appear to be aware of it, that this things themselves and the sooner we evolutionary principle has been going take some of them over the better it on steadily for a long time, The Local will be for the Island. Much as one Government Board have been extending decries doing away with small authori- their help to all the local authorities in ties one has to admit they are un- many areas in drainage, in housing; in economic in these days and what is every possible way they can. more important they are not functioning and if they have no function then they Mr Nivison: And it is very welcome. ought to be done away with and be Lt.-Cdr. Quine: It is indeed very wel- replaced by a larger body. We are a come and it has not pushed them out of small area of some two hundred square their jobs. The evolutionary principle miles and it must be quite fantastic for is going on and I do not think any Com- a stranger to find that we have twenty mission is needed to go into the matter. odd local authorities. I do hope that I •have been here a very long time, and hon. members will give the Local I have seen in the last 18 years very Government Board a chance of getting great changes and I have seen the work down to the matter of stream-lining of the Local Government Board be- local authority government in the Isle of cause I was on that Board for a certain Man. time. As far as the amendment moved Mr Corkhill: Your Excellency, I in- by the hon. member for Rushen is con- cerned the reason I cannot support it is tend to oppose this resolution, I think it is a bit of an affront to think about that it boils down to this, You Excel- the disbanding of our local authorities lency, that you will give every local without giving more consideration to it. authority which applies for finance the I have never known where local authori- money and let them get on with it. and ties have held up in any way the you cannot do that. development of any village Mr Irving: I beg to second the amend- ment moved by my colleague. Mr Mr Stephen: Where have you been Bolton, sir. I do so as a member of the living? Local Government Board and I think it Mr Corkhill: In the same country as is inevitable, if you are to appoint a yourself, sir. With the assistance of the Commission that it should be the Local Government Board which ought to in- Local Government Board, a lot more quire into the matter. As a member of could be done. - the Local Government Board, sir, 1 have Mr Irving: You could not even put discovered in the past few years that public conveniences out at St. John's, there is a real necessity for action, and I the Government had to do it. think the hon. member for Castletown has done a good service by bringing this Mr Corkhill: For who's benefit? • resolution forward and I only hope that Deemster Kneale: Yours. (Laughter.) members of the Court will support the resolution as amended by my hon. Mr Corkhill: In a matter such as that friend. It has been apparent to us .o ' —the Tynwald ceremony—it is nothing the Board that these small local to do with the local authority of St. authorities of which we have heard so John's. Where are they going to raise much this morning are not in a position the money? Let the Local Government to carry out their functions- Board give the authority of German the

LoCal Government Districts—Request for Appointment of Commission to Examine Recommendations of Local Government Districts (Administration) Commission, 1949. 680 TYNWALD COURT, JANUARY 17, 1961 money and they will do it quite well. It Mr Nicholls: I intend to support this is not for the benefit of German, it is for resolution, Your Excellency,- because, as the whole Island. the hon. mover of the resolution has pointed out,. we are at the present time Deemster Kneale: Nonsense. entering on an election year, There is no doubt that this subject will be a Mr Corkhill: The First Deemster says very important point on the election nonsense, but he is not always talking platforms. in all constituencies — sense. (Laughter.) I believe, Your especially in the rural areas. I think it Excellency, that these new brooms we should be removed out of electioneering have coming along are all wrong'here. altogether. I don't think any member of the Court could dispute the fact that Mr Stephen: I don't know whether the the present position we have of 26 local hon. member in charge of this resolu- authorities in this small Island is simply tion feels inclined to accept the amend- ludicrous, It has been obviously ridi- ment, but I sincerely hope he won't. culous for several years. The hon. The Local Government Board are them- mover has very properly pointed out that we have a very different Legisla- selves in many ways a functioning local ture.to-day from what we had when the authority and I think their own duties Corrin Commission presented their as a local authority might be examined, Report. On that occasion the Bill only probably by a commission and I think if failed by a very narrow margin, and it necessary the commission should be is quite possible that even if this com- from across the water. They are the mission were to present an exactly only people who could take an impartial similar report there might be a very view of this particular very involved different vote. I was rather surprised position. It is pretty clear from what by the remarks of the hon. member for has been said this morning that feeling Glenfaba, who is obviously opposed to is very, very strong. Mr Bolton made a any change and yet his particular con- strong case for an investigation but I stituency includes a place which is very think it would be awfully difficult to dear to my heart—my birthplace. Only find any local people, however sound recently the Local Government Board their recommendations, who would be have had to take the matter out of the acceptable to this Court to sit on such hands of the parish commissioners and a commission which would he for the try to clear up that area. How can benefit of the Island, I hope the Court anyone say they are prepared to stick will not accept the amendment. and to those methods when such a state of remember what the hon. member for affairs exists in any part of the Middle, Mr Nivison, said, that we are Island? We are all getting a' bit tired of not imposing any thing on local autho- commissions and reports which are rities at the moment:, When the Bill sometimes accepted and sometimes are was before us before, it was put in the rejected. But I think that if we are hands of Mr Bolton, the hon. member serious in putting our affairs in order for West Douglas. and failed. I am not with regard to the multiplicity of local suggesting that it failed because of authorities, we have to get something that, but it might have been a' factor. done. It should be taken out of politics think this should be given to a commis- and a commission appointed. sion. It might be that they will recom- Mr Corkhill: May I say in reply---" mend an amalgamation. I am not at the moment committing myself to any The Governor: In explanation, I think' amalgamation, but I do think we should (Laughter.) have a review of the problem as it existed ten years ago, and in the light Mr Corkish: May I say in explanation. of present-day circumstances. Your Excellency, that the amount of

Local Government Districts—Request for Appointment of Commission to Examine Recommendations of Local Government Districts (Administration) Commission, 1949. TYNWALD COURT, JANUARY 17, 1961 681 money needed in the Foxdale district, if Mr Nivison: It must be mutually it had been the same as that amount agreed upon. that has been spent in Laxey—then we Mr Edward Canister: There is no could clear up Foxdale. It is money we question of imposition in this resolution. want. It merely asks that a commission be Mr Edward Callister: May I speak to appointed to examine the question. the amendment, Your Excellency? I There is nothing in the Corrin Report would like to refer to what the hon. to impose anything. The hon. member, member, Mr Nicholls said, that we are Mr Nivison, belong to a very progressive rather tired of commissions. I think local authority, but without Douglas that in the absence of party politics in Onchan would be in a very poor posi- the Island it is necessary that commis- tion. sions should decide certain matters. It Mr Niviscn: And vice versa. (Laugh- is the only practical and sensible way of ter.) arriving at information. Now I think a great deal of what has been said to-day Mr Edward Callister: Onchan is is quite irrelevant. What we want is a merely a slumberland for Douglas. Now commission to examine this Report and I have one more point— then come back and say whether it should be implemented or not. They The Governor: With reference to the could even go further and say that parts amendment, of course. (Laughter.) of it should be implemented. It is quite a long while since the Report was made. Mr Edward Callister: Of course. I Now I think, sir, that the hon. members have not got as far off the mark as most Mr Nivison and Mr McFee were arguing hon. members. Now someone men- against themselves. Mr McFee thought tioned this matter being sent to the that if Port St. Mary and Port Erin had Executive Council. There has been a some particular project and rated them- suggestion in the debate that this might selves for that, then he thought it was go to the Executive Council, and I would unfair that Arbory and Co. should not under any circumstances allow that. benefit. Would he still use that argu- Mr A. C. Teare: wish to second the ment if the Island had any pro- amendment proposed by the hon. mem- ject which would benefit Port Erin and ber for Rushen, Mr McFee. Your Excel- Port St. Mary? Would that still be lency, Briefly, the reason is this: we unfair? I cannot help thinking that the have not heard anything this morning hon. member for Middle— which was not covered by the findings of the Corrin Report—which was an Mr Bolton: Is the hon. member speak- excellent Report. To me, this seems to ing to the amendment? be an act of superoragation—(laughter) The Governor: He informed the Court —to impose unnecessary centralisation. that he was speaking to the amendment. I think • this Report should be taken (Laughter.) from its archives and then, if the Execu- tive Council think fit, the necessary Mr Edward Canister: An amendment Bill could be prepared to implement was moved that this matter should go to that and the Bill could- be introduced the Local Government Board for into the Legislature. I think it is a examination instead of a commission. waste of time to appoint another com- The hon. member for Douglas West is mission when that Report is still there. trying, as usual,. to stop me saying any- Members: Vote. thing. I feel that hon, members have sufficient enterprise and foresight to. Mr Radcliffe: I am opposing both the know that centralisation of local govern- amendments and the resolution, Your ment must come. Excellency, I would ask 'hon. mem-

Local Government Districts—Request for Appointment of Commission to Examine Recommendations of Local Government Districts (Administration) Commission, 1949, 682 TYNWALD COURT, JANUARY 17. 1961

bers of the Court most sincerely to con- reservoirs and their own lighting sider what the hon. member, Mr Nivi- systems. Such things are secured son, said. He put forward many valid through their representatives and the reasons why we should oppose the Government produces such services. Is resolution and the one amendment Douglas functioning? Douglas is a which was before us at the time. His seaside resort and it is their obligation arguments apply just as well to the to develop and to think of plans to go second amendment. There were also ahead and to put themselves in the fore- arguments in support, on the grounds of front of the industry, but they are say- economy and efficiency. But what. is ing that nothing should be put forward spent by all the local authorities, in without the help of Tynwald and it will relation to our total expenditure, is be the obligation of Tynwald to help very, very little-- Douglas. It has been said many and Mr Edward Callister: Because nothing many a time let us keep our thoughts in is being done. perspective. A village district has a function although it casts nothing. Mr Radcliffe: The interruption from There is no transport cost and there are the hon. member for Douglas North no fees and a village district costs little brings me to my second point, that the to run but it does provide a most essen- local authorities are not functioning. tial part of our political economy in that Now let us get things in their proper it does provide a channel for local views perspective. The small village district and local expressions of opinion on all has a function to perform and it is not aspects of our Island life in whatever all important and all-powerful and it field they may be considered. This may not even provide the water, the matter of a commission is, in my lighting or the drainage but it performs opinion, very dangerous to our whole those duties through the proper autho- set-up. We have had commissions on rities. You might take the argument other things and I have supported them further when it is implied that the but I am beginning to lose my faith in village and parish districts are not func- the House's ability to accept them but, tioning. You may say the towns are not in this particular instance, we want to functioning. It is the responsibility of he very careful about asking other the town authority to provide water and people to come in and advise us on the light but do they do this? setting up of our own Government. Members: Yes. That is what it means because local government is part of our national Mr Radcliffe: They are supplying it government. We know ourselves•what through the Isle of Man Water Board or out set up is and we do not want to have the Isle of Man Electricity Board. somebody telling us what to have in the way of local government and what Members: Not Douglas. authority they should have. I think it is Mr Radcliffe: We have Castletown dangerous and the people supporting and Ramsey and Peel; Douglas does not this would then have to fall back and come into it, but it is suggested that they would see the disadvantages. I Castletown should absorb the parishes hope the Court will reject the idea of a of Rushen and' Malew and Arbory and commission. There are two amend- so on, that Peel should absorb all the ments and there are some points in parishes round about and that Ramsey their favour but I ask the Court to should absorb the parishes of the reject the suggestions. As the hon. North because the local authorities are member for Garff. Lt,-Cdr. Quine has functioning. But is Peel function- said, our set-up has been evolved ing? Is Ramsey functioning? Of naturally and it has been built up course they are, but we should be sur- slowly through the years keeping pace prised to see them setting up their own with other developments and let us

Local Government Districts—Request for Appointment of Commission to Examine Recommendations of Local Government Districts (Administration) Commission. IP49. TYNWALD COURT, .JANUARY 37, 1961 60

allow it to continue with other develop- Report. (Dissent.) Never mind, it is ments and do not try to cut- the ground obvious one or two speakers have not from under everything in the parish-- read it and I would, therefore, rad out the recommendations. "We therefore Mr Edward Canister: Parish pump politics. recommend: (a) Boundary extensions for certain Town authorities; (b) amal- Mr Radcliffe: Never mind about gamation of Village and Parish autho- parish pump politics. The parishes rities into Rural District authorities have made the Island just as much as elected by postal ballot and exercising the town of Douglas and to suggest any- full powers of local government; (e) the thing else shows up the hon: member institution of Parish Meetings and and his limited point of view and just as Parish Committees. The Committee to the yeomen of England are the back- be composed of the members of the bone of England so are the parishes the backbone of the Island. rural district authority elected by the Parish; and (d) the introduction of Mr Edward Callister: You are a hun- legislation to give effect to these pro- dred years out of date. posals." Now those committees were proposed to look after the cultural life Mr Radcliffe: I oppose both amend- • of the parish. I can well understand ments and the main resolution. my hon. friend, Mr Nivison, the King of Mr Nivison: Before the vote is taken, Onchan, putting forward his objection. Your Excellency, I should like to say a Onchan is a jolly fine place and most of couple of words about the amendments. my relatives live there but I would not I think the best amendment to my mind live there for a big clock—(laughter)- is that the Local Government Board but I can understand his position. Your should examine it hut this is against Excellency, I am not accepting either the principle of "Do not vote" if you either amendment and the reason is as have to vote for something. The only I said early on, because it is "elec- way to stick by your principles—(laugh- tioneering" and in this particular case ter)—is to reject the amendment by the we have time on our side. In most of hon. member for Douglas West.. Mr the matters in the resolutions following Bolton, because you are giving an indi- we have not ot time on our side but we cation to the Court that you are accept- have in this one. I know that we shall ing there is something wrong and in the have time after the elections for a resolution it does assume there is some- commission to sit and consider sensibly thing wrong. "In the light of present- the situation of the local authorities in day conditions and future trends" are this Island, and I do hope that hon. the words and we must not accept there members of the Court will agree to this is something wrong and we must oppose and I especially appeal to the members the amendment, both these amendments of the Legislative Council. I am not and the resolution. asking for a huge expenditure of money. I am trying to save money and those Mr Colebourn: Your Excellency, most seem strange words to certain ears in speakers have cancelled each other out this Court. I am trying to save the so it is easy for me to reply. There is taxpayers' money and I beg to move my one obvious point which I have been resolution. suspicious of for some time and there are a few members of the Court who do .The Governor: There are two amend- not do their homework. Now, this reso- ments before the Court, the first being lution has been on the agenda for a long that the words "that . the Executive time and the Corrin Report has been Council" be substituted for the words mentioned but I do not think anybody, to appoint a commission of five persons •apart from myself, has read the Corrin to."

Local Government Districts—Request for Appointment of Commission to Examine Recommendations of Local Government Districts (Administration) Commission. 1949. 684 TYNWALD COURT, JANUARY 17, 1961

The amendment was defeated. and it was lost in the Keys by 16 votes to three. I_ will now put the substan- The Governor: I will put the second tive motion. amendment "and the Local Government Board" be substituted for "to appoint a The motion went to a division and Commission of five persons to." carried the voting in the Keys being:— The amendment went to a division For: Messrs Quayle, McFee, Cole- and was defeated in the Keys by 16 bourn, Edward Callister, Stephen, votes to three, the voting being:— Corkish, Kaneen, Irving, Bolton. For: Messrs McFee, Irving and Bolton Gale and A. C. Teare--11. 3, Against: Messrs Corkhill, Crowe, Against: Messrs Corkhill, Crowe, Radcliffe, Lt.-Cdr. Quine, Messrs Radcliffe, Lt.-Cdr, Quine, Messrs Nivison, H. S. Cain, Coole and the Coole, Colebourn, Edward Callister, Acting-Speaker-8. , Nivison, Quayle, H. S. Cain, Stephen, Corkish, Kaneen, Gale, The Governor: Gentlemen, the reso- A. C, Teare and the Acting-Speaker lution carried in the Council six votes —16, to one, Mr Farrant voting against and it was also carried in the Keys by 11 The Governor:. Gentlemen, the amend- votes to eight, So we will now adjourn ment passed in the Council, live votes in for lunch and as we are a little late and favour and two against, Deemster the Keys wish to meet I will adjourn the Kneale and Mr Nicholls voting against Court until 2-45 p.m.

REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF HOUSE OF KEYS

Douglas, Tuesday January 17, 1961

The House of Keys, met on the ad- ADMINISTRATION OF ESTATES . journment of Tynwald fol. a short BILL period. The 'Keys resumed in their own The Acting-Speaker: Gentlemen: The Chamber after lunch at 2-30 p.m. House will stand adjourned until 2-30 p.m. in its own Chamber as there is a The Acting-Speaker: Gentlemen, a new Bill which requires urgent con- matter has arisen with regard to the sideration_ We will now stand adjourned Administration of Estates Bill, 1961. I to 2-30 p.m. call on the hon. member for Rushen,. Mr • Simcocks, who was the member in The .House adjourned to its own charge when the Bill was before the Chamber g. 2-30 p.m. House.

Administration of Estates Bill. REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF TYNWALD COURT

Douglas, Tuesday, January 17, 1961,

VICTORIA PIER BUILDING— Mr Colebourn: I will tell you just MOTION TO RESCIND PREVIOUS now. Would you like to go and sit in RESOLUTION REJECTED your own seat? The Governor: Gentlemen, we will Mr Bolton: I will if you will sit down resume business on item 6 on our agenda paper—Victoria Pier buildings— for a moment. and I call upon the hon. member for Mr Colebourn sat down and Mr Castletown. Bolton crossed the floor of the Court to Mr Colebourn: Thank you, Your sit in his customary seat. Excellency, and I beg to move the following resolution:— Mr Colebourn: There seemed to be something wrong with this side of the Whereas Tynwald on the 18th May, 1960, passed a resolution approving in principle Court, Your Excellency; it was out of the demolition of the Victoria Pier Building balance! (Laughter.) As I was saying and the construction of new terminal build- ings at a cost of £400,000 and approving the efforts have been made to make me feel borrowing of such sum of £400,000 by the isle I am doing something which is against of Man Government under the terms of the all the rules; that I am very much Isle of Man Loans Act as and when required. "non-U"; I have even been accused of And whereas Tynwald On the 18th October, 190, resolved that the terms of repayment of political sharp practice, presumably be- such loan of £400,000 should be 30 years from cause I have coupled mention of Your the date of borrowing. Excellency's financial statement with Resolved.—that in view of the statement my revoking resolution-- made by His Excellency the Lieu tenant- Governor on the 13th December. 1960. with Mr Stephen: Revolting resolution! reference to the financial position of the isle of Man. Tynwa1d resolved that the said reso- Mr Colebourn: Your Excellency and lutions of 18th may. 1960, and 18th October, 1960, be rescinded. members, I may be breaking all the political rules in the calendar, but I do Well, sir, I will apologise to the Court not profess to be a politician. I am a for apparently "hogging" the Tynwald business man, and experience over a agenda, but I make no apology whatever very long period of years as a business for bringing it forward— man is the basis of my conduct in this Mr Stephen: You ought to! Court and in particular with regard to this resolution. I have been told by Mr Colebourn: I make no apology people who should know better than I whatever for bringing this forward„ that Your Excellency's statement has although I have had considerable pres- nothing whatever to do with borrowed sure put upon me to withdraw - the money; that your statement, sir, re- resoIulion- ferred only to general revenue, but Mr Bolton (who had entered the surely, sir, general revenue comes very Court a few moments after the other much into the picture when we are con- members and was sitting in a seat sidering how we will find the interest adjacent to Mr Colebourn): From and sinking charges for loans of this whom? nature.

Victoria Pier Building—Motion to Rescind Previous Resolution rejected. 6138 TYNWALD COURT, JANUARY 17, 1961

Mr Stephen: On a point of order, Your barrel to meet our Government's essen- Excellency, I would draw your atten- tial services. During the very short time, tion: sir, to Standing Order 55 which Your Excellency, that I have been a provides "No motion may be proposed member of this Legislature, I have been which is the same in substance as any astounded at the complete abandon with question which,, during the preceding which the taxpayer's money has been period of six months, has been super- dissipated. In many cases I have sat ceded or resolved in the affirmative or silently stunned, wondering whether negative." In the light of that Standing Order I would point out that October is after all, was it real money we were only four months ago. using,. or was it a bottomless pit tucked away somewhere in Government Office Mr Colebourn; Let me point out— from which an endless supply of pound notes emerged. I have looked around at Mr, Stephen: Your Excellency, I have the various members of this hon. Court asked for yowl ruling on a point of and wondered whether these friends, order. Standing Order prohibits the raising of a question within six months, whom I have known for many years, and the hon. member for Castletown has and whom I hold in various degrees of no raised this question of loans, a regard, had financial minds far beyond matter which was settled by the Court what I had imagined. Then again, I last October. have thought possibly we have all passed over into another world The Governor: I take it that the hon. populated by people out of Lewis member was not referring to the terms Carroll's fairyland, and whether of the loan. we were dealing with money much as children play with their new toys Mr Colebourn: No, I was not. at Christmas time, I have won- The Governor: Then you may proceed. dered, as I have said, when the clock approached 4-30 p.m. to .5 p.m, whether Mr Colebourn: Now, sir, having men- we thought we were in a kind of fairy- tioned loans may I say now, sir, right land because we appeared to throw the now, sir, in open court, sir, that I have money about like drunken sailors, Now, made a New Year's resolution, and that Your Excellency's financial statement, resolution, sir, is to declare a state of however, very quickly made me at least war, total war, on all Government realise that this was real life and that financial extravagances, and I, sir, will something must be done, or as in the wage this war, I will wage this war with case of this resolution, undone. Some all the powers at my disposal for as long of you will no doubt be thinking and as, or for what short period, I am in this possibly later on saying, by what right Court, or outside of it, I will wage this have 1, the junior member, to say these war and I will use all the means in my things, by what right do I say these power to do so. That„ sir, covers the things. I know very well, Your Excel- second plank in my five-year plan. It lency, that in representing Castletown I is fantastic, gentlemen, that we who, represent the smallest constituency in no doubt, think we are the best brains the Isle of Man, a mere 1,400 electors, the Island has to offer for Govern- but let me say without fear of any con- ment, should sit in this Court and tradiction whatever that at this moment, squander half a million of the tax- in moving this resolution I am of the payers' money on a facade, and I repeat opinion that I represent 90 per cent. of the word facade, at the Victoria Pier the electorate in the Isle of Man and I facade that will not bring one penny believe they are behind me in this into the Island's Exchequer or anywhere resolution. I know, sir, how terribly else as revenue, especially at a time hard it is to keep your feet on the when we are literally scraping the ground when you have the initials

Victoria Pier Building—Motion to Rescind Prevous Resolution Rejected, TYNWALD COURT, JANUARY 17, 1961 689

after your name. From the second thoughts on this. We must not very short time I have been honoured go on with this. Not for one moment by being a member of this Court I must we think we are here by divine realise that. When our police force providence—that we can thoughtlessly gives such wonderful salutes to hon. squander the Island's resources on what- members, when it seems possible to ever fancy occurs to us. We are here park your car on any street corner with as representatives of the people and as impunity, and when at functions you such we must legislate. I think that find yourself at the top table, it is very every hon, member of this Court must hard to imagine you are not immortal, agree that Tynwald to-day, in 1961, is that you are charged with responsibilities— heavier Mr Kaneen: Watch you don't burst. responsibilities than ever before in its long and ancient history. There is no Mr Nivison: What was that? doubt about that in my mind. I think we are now at a point in the history of Mr Colebourn: I am sorry if I hit the Island, a far graver point, than at home, Mr Nivison. any time in two world wars. I mean in Mr Nivison: No. I don't understand economy. We have reached a very your pciint. grave paint, and at such times there is no disgrace in having second thoughts. Mr Colebourn: Listen, and you will. Not only have we to make a determined I am sure I am not wrong in asking hon. effort to bring more money into this members to have second thoughts on Island, we must make a determined this out-dated project. I have discussed effort to save money. In this connec- this with hundreds of ordinary people, tion I would like to quote a truism made members of the general public, during by Governor Dundas very early in his the last few months and not a single governorship of this Island, He came person outside this Court wants this out with this statement, that true new building to be proceeded with. I economy should not stop spending, it have mentioned this fact to one or two was wise spending. That is true senior members of Tynwald, who have economy. It is not keeping money in the made the astounding observation that bank, but using it wisely. We are on public opinion is nearly always wrong. the point of creating loans that we all Let me very quickly point out that in hope and pray will bring money into case other members are of the same our Island and to our people. and as a mind, that we are all here in Court to- man who has had to borrow a lot of day by an expression of public opinion, money many times in my business and that next November it will be public career, I know the hardest and most opinion that will fill these very seats, difficult thing to do when you get and that one of the issues that decides money is to realise it is not your public opinion might well be how hon. money—you have got to put it back. - members vote on this. resolution this Many is the time, many years ago, when afternoon. I am very serious when I I would go trembling to my bank say that. I have spoken to people—I manager's office to ask for £50, £100 or meet hundreds of ordinary people every whatever it was I wanted, And week—andi I have had literally hun- I remember how great the temptation dreds come to me and say, "Good luck, was, as I came down the bank steps, to Colebourn with your resolution." And go and buy myself a new hat or a new although my number is ex-directory, suit. Those are the sort of things you last night my phone was continually don't borrow money for—and that is ringing with wishes of good luck. That what we have to remember. Now if my is why I stand with all the confidence in memory serves me correctly. I think the world and ask the Court to have there were only six members who

Victoria Pier Building—Motion to Rescind Prevous Resolution Rejected. 690 TYNWALD COURT, JANUARY 17, 1961 voted against the sea terminal building. by balances on General Revenue Let me to-day appeal to those who Account, other steps will become neces- voted for, to think again in the light of sary to balance the Budget in the follow- changed circumstances, to have second ing year, such as increases in taxation, thoughts. Remember, and remember Or economies in existing services or a well that there are more heavy commit- combination of both." Now I would ments piling up for Health and Social make a particular appeal to my friends Services, our doctors' back pay and big in the Labour Party. I ask them not to increases in pay for our police force. vote as a Party in the case of this Very shortly the hon. chairman of the resolution. Health Services Board will be rising Mr Corkish: They never do. with a resolution for another £40,000 which you cannot resist. We will have Mr Colebourn: Many times they do to find interest to pay for grants which and I ask them not to. How are you I am sure we all hope will be made to going to fight the election if there is the tourist industry. I hope we Will going to be a reduction in the services lend money tor them. And remember, and bigger increases •in taxation. this has got to be paid back. Also, from Mr Corkish: Restore surtax. Answer what I read in the English Press and that. It was a different speech on that from what is going on in the other Par- occasion. liament, there is also going to be another claim for our underpaid Civil Mr Colebourn: I know very well that Servants. There is bound to be an many of the Labour Party and one or increase there, particularly in view of two outside the party supported the another resolution which appears on our resolution. If this building comes it agenda to-day, and I don't seee how was pointed out that it might not bring Tynwald will be able to resist it. Mr many visitors but at least it would pro- Selwyn Lloyd, as Chancellor of the vide five to six years unemployment Exchequer, in the United Kingdom has, work, only a few days ago, given a similar warning to the British Parliament. I Mr Kaneen: We have been doing that am not a Selwyn Lloyd—only an ordi- for the past ten years. nary tradesman with a shop at the the corner of the street, but I have had Mr Colebourn: We must budget for to use economies in my business which full employment and think that way. I am happy to say, have paid me divi- We must not think negative thinking, dends. I am quite sure there is no need and it is negative thinking. Would it not for me to repeat what he has said. be better to spend the money on a new Hon. members will well know that he hotel or a bathing pool? I am quite cer- has called for drastic cuts in Govern- tain it would, so that we could not only ment spending for precisely the same provide winter work but also provide reasons that face this Island. Inflation attractions which will be appreciated by is rapidly gaining a foothold in the ' our visitors and bring in revenue and Government of the Island, make no mis- there we can dispel the warning, the take about it. We must take immediate grave warning, which His Excellency steps to cut down on expenditure which has given of possible reductions in our is not essential to our wellbeing. Now health and social services. then, I am going to read an extract Mr Edward Callister: They had better from His Excellency's financial state- not try that. ment. It is not out of context but it is an extract which is'well worth reading: Mr Colebourn: I am in agreement that "Should this buayancy change and our certain limited improvements are neces- free reserves be used and not replaced sary. I would be foolish if I was not in

Victoria Pier Building—Motion to Rescind Prevous Resolution Rejected. - TYNWALD COURT, JANUARY 17, 1961 691 agreement, but it is monstrous if we election issue. Here could well be your should contemplate for one moment the chance and the opportunity for you to expenditure of half-a-million pounds on show your wise counsel and leadership. a building which will be far out-dated You have been placed in the exalted long before we or our children have paid position which you occupy because you for it. It is monstrous that the Harbour are gentlemen of mature judgment and Board and their fellow travellers should that I honestly believe and you have contemplate such an enterprise before reached the height of your several pro- putting their swing bridges in order. fessions and your businesses through Here is the Highway Board spending, your conscientious approach to prob- literally, millions of pounds on high- lems and your wise decisions. You are, roads, highroads that eventually lead to however, mortals—make no mistake a swing bridge that is closed for about that for like we lowly people in vehicular traffic. the Keys you are mortals. But I am Mr Nivison: Which bridge? sure, Your Excellency and gentlemen, there have been times as has been the Mr Colebourn: At Ramsey, in Dou- case with myself, when you have wont glas, and in Castletown. dered if you have made the right deci- sion, When you have changed your Mr Nivison: Ah, that's the one. mind and found that second thoughts (Laughter). were the best. How many times, and Mr Colebourn: There may be others. how often, gentlemen, in my business It must be remembered. Your Excel- career have I changed my mind lency and gentlemen who are giving and altered a decision and found their attention—and those who are not. it of considerable benefit to me and my business. Let me say there is Mr Nivison: You are getting a good no disgrace in changing one's mind. It hearing. is not a sign of weakness, it is a sign of strength and, finally, Your Excellency. Mr Colebourn: It could be better, It I know that a considerable amount of must be remembered that those bridges preparatory work has been dime on the were built seventy or eighty years ago Victoria Pier and a lot of money has to handle horses and traps and surely it been spent. The hon. member, Mr would be better to spend some of this Bolton always smiles when we are half million to build bridges to meet spending money—other people's money. modern demands rather than waste' The work that has gone on cannot be money an a building to swell the ego of undone very easily but I am quite pre- a few people. I would remind my pared, with the approval of any possible friends with agricultural interests His seconder, to accept an amendment that Excellency could welt have meant a will either reduce the amount of the possible reduction in agricultural sub- vote considerably or, alternatively:. refer sidies in his reference to economies in the whole of the business back to the existing services. Now, sir, I would like Harbour Board. to make a special appeal to the hon. members of the Council. Mr Quayle seconded. Members: Not again! Mr Irving: I think this item has come Mr Colebourn: The wise men who sit on the agenda for two reasons firstly, as at the top. You are all members of the the hon. member has suggested, that in Court of Tynwald and, apparently, have your financial statement you said that no election worries—(laughter)—but I all was not well with the finances of the am not so sure, for this could well be Island, certainly in the terms of the the time—your shining hour—for con- Castle Mona project. I interpreted your stitutional reform might well be the statement to 'mean that if . you were

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asked for £50,000 for the Castle Mona gest that what ought to be done is that Hotel you would be hard messed to find Your Excellency and the Executive it, certainly out of the General Revenue. Council should go into it in the light of because you have had several items to public reaction, and in the light of deal with which you had not antici- possible future developments in another pated, I do not think, however, that direction. I wonder if we are facing up your statement was ever meant to to possible changes in conditions in convey the impression that if the Manx travel in the next few years; whether we Government wished to borrow £50,000 remember there may be some form of at some future date for a purpose such transport which will enable us to cater as the Castle Mona that it would neces- for thousands of people queuing up to sarily entail extra taxation or present cross. I know there always will be grave financial problems, but I hope queues and sea travel but I wonder whether we are bearing in mind pos- that your financial statement will not be sible other facilities which may well be interpreted to mean that we are not required in the near future. I would going to spend anything on develop- like to refer to an article in Saturday's ment, I take it that to ask for £50,000 "Daily Express," which was unfor- out of the pocket would present difficul- tunately delayed on Saturday and did ties. That is the way I look at it and I not arrive until Sunday and perhaps hope that the hon. member, Mr Cole- many people did not read it. It refers bourn will do the same and I hope he to a new form of sea and air transport— will not use that argument to oppose by hovercraft. It is headed "Channel one item after another. I quite agree Scheme which will beat the rush." We with him, and he is quite right when he appreciate that they write these stories says that no one outside Tynwald is in in a peculiar sort of way to appeal favour of spending £400,000 at the new quickly and easily to readers. But they terminal building. I have spoken to a were talking about a super hovercraft lot of people and I have never met any- to carry two 'hundred holiday makers one in favour of it. I have met many across the Channel in half-an-hour. who condemn it strenuously and I would have thought that public reaction might The Attorney-General: Small! haye been a sufficient reason for the hon. member to come forward with his Mr Irving: The Attorney-General says request to reconsider the matter. I was "Small" but when we got aircraft which one of the people who felt we needed a would carry 66 people from Liverpool new sea terminal; I am sure we do or —the Viscounts—they were the last have major alterations to the existing word. If we think in terms of aircraft building. The Manx Government have this -is not small. I presume he wants always been of the conviction it was im- to see bigger and more powerful craft. portant that good passenger handling This article talks about carrying facilities should be available for arrivals holiday-makers across the channel. and departures and it has been on the Which channel? I hope it is our chan- unwritten list of priorities. It may be nel. Your Excellency has stimulated decided we need better terminal facili- activity in the Island to see we are going ties but I do not think we have to go to get in by the early doors in anything mad about it. I proposed before that we affecting the comfort and enjoyment of should limit this to a quarter of a visitors. In terms of this sea terminal million pounds, rive or six other we must remember this possible deve- members agreed to that amendment but lopment. We are told the Clyde ship- it was lost and, much as I disliked builders are going to have 1,000 tons spending £400,000 on it I fell in with craft in service by 1966. Now, this the majority. I agree that it should be terminal building will not be ready until reconsidered but not rescinded. I sug- 1965, so when considering the terminal

Victoria Pier Building—Motion to Rescind Prevous Resolution Rejected. • TYNWALD COURT, JANUARY 17, 1961 693 building we are not looking many years are going to have then we did not need ahead in terms of hovercraft. I have the same type of terminal building. It taken the liberty with other hon. will be more like Ronaldsway where members of bringing this model here people would book as they do for the to-day. (A model of a hovercraft was plane or the train. We must plan for exhibited in the Tynwald Court Cham- this sort of development. I would like to ber.) It is a model of a machine which move this amendment largely on the Saunders-Roe hope to build. It is a grounds that I still consider the building passenger and car ferry capable of DO is too elaborate for our needs and that knots travelling 4ft. over the •water It instead of being rescinded the scheme would carry 800 people and 80 cars, It be reconsidered by Your Excellency and has a range of 200 nautical miles. The the Executive Council and reported on cost of travel has been estimated at lid to Tynwald. I am asking Your Excel- per seat-mile, which is very low indeed. lency and the Executive Council to re- There is another model on the Island— consider the matter. If you come back of a craft capable of taking 66 people and say you have reconsidered the cost and it does DO knots 4ft. above the of the building in ,the light of the finan- water. The other one, which is now cial position in the light of other pro- being built in England. will be ready jects and in the light of possible deve- this year and will be used this year, lopments in a different type of traffic I largely for experimental purposes. But am sure the Court will accept it. I ask it will be ready this year. It has a range hon. members to support the amend- of 200 miles. The cost of operation for ment. I am not asking for the work to anything under 400 tons is high per he stopped but for the scheme to be seat mile in comparison with larger reconsidered. machines. In the 66-seater it would be 4id I believe this form of transport Mr A. C. Teare: I wish to second the would provide comfort and speed for amendment and I am especially glad it visitors. If the rotors failed it comes has been proposed by the hon. member down on the water and is driven by pro- in view of the enforced absence through pellers like a ship. It would come into illness of the chairman of the Harbour harbour just as a ship would. When it Board. I would not have liked it to on water to land it needs only a ramp have been thrown overboard altogether. of not more than 1 in 12 gradient. I am Reconsideration is, I think, the right going to suggest that when we consider course. It is a matter of urgency that port facilities we might well make in- this should be faced and I feel that the quiries from several of these firms— expenditure of £400,000 on a sea termi- Vickers Armstrong and so on—and find nal is altogether too extravagant. I out if we can get in on the early doors agree that the building at the Arcade and what sort of change we want to does require alteration and improve- make in our harbour installations. I ment. It is not a thing of beauty and think we ought to keep in the fore- does not serve the useful purpose it front of any developments in technology should do. But I feel expenditure of which affects the comfort and con- much less than £400,000 would meet the venience of passengers. I am going to case. We are told since the debate a suggest that some of this money might new sea terminal was built. at South- well be spent on hovercraft facilities in ampton for £250.000, which is a big Douglas and a bit less on the terminal difference from £400,000. I think it building. I want to see a terminal would be wise if the Board do hold up building but I want a building which the work and have the whole situation will keep up with the type of traffic reconsidered and I am sure by then the there will be in ten years time. If for chairman of the Harbour Board will be the comfort of visitors this is what we back in Tynwald to give his views.

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Mr Radcliffe: I have little to say but other members of the committee con- not in, favour of the amendment. When sidered this most carefully and although this matter was before the House in they were appalled at the cost they felt May, 1960, I stated then that I knew it was impossible to do it properly for something had to be done and I asked less. I do not think anyone could sug- for a revised plan and stated that the gest that the committee who considered space available could be put to better it or the Harbour Board were throwing use. Then 1 moved that it be referred money away. We tried hard to cut the back to the Board but I did not get a cost as far as we could but there are seconder. There are two points—first certain essentials in a building of that the question of extravagence and costs type and we had to meet those require- and most important the matter raised ments. We had to look ahead and see by Mr Irving as to what type of traffic that it would meet requirements for a we should have in ten years time. That period of years. If anyone suggests we is the most important thing which has tinker with the existing building they been said. Let us look forward instead want to go there and look at it and see of backwards. People are not going to what happens in the summer and then stand waiting for 19th century transport in the future. Another paint is the re- they will think again about the whole action of the public to this scheme. I, thing. I think it is a dreadful business too, have heard many comments but not that for four years a job of this kind one person has complimented Tynwald can be considered and thought about so on its decision or anyone else connected very carefully and brought before Tyn- with it that they are spending this wald and approved and in a few minutes money on a terminal building. No one someone can come along with a flimsy is happy at all. Let us face up to this. excuse and say "I move this be For some unearthly reason we were rescinded." Why? Because the hon. contrary to public opinion in the Island. member voted against it at the time. He is having another go because he has Mr Bolton: I am very interested in found a hook he can hang his hat on. the suggestion that the building is not He suggests I do this and that and I am suitable for future use. I take it that smiling. But 1 smile most of the time. even if the traffic is by hovercraft or by (Laughter.) I do suggest there is no 19th century transport the problem of reason at all for this resolution and receiving them and handling them and quite frankly I cannot see any reason dealing with their luggage will be the for supporting the amendment. If the same. nature of the traffic changes we can still use Douglas harbour and this building Mr Radcliffe: Two thousand five hun- will still be there for the traffic we dred queueing up—never! have. I am sure it will he quite up to date. Mr Irving has suggested that Mr Bolton: The hon. member should other works in the harbour will be go down and see for himself. I am sure just as many people will be queueing up necessary for hovercraft. That may be and trying to get back. so but that does not mean we have got to cut out the present development be- Mr Nicholls; They are doing it at the cause we may be building a ramp in the Airport now in the summer, harbour. We cannot start building ramps in the harbour when we still Mr Bolton: It is clear that Ronalds- have steamers coming in which may way will need further development in find ramps a disadvantage. I do think the future and we have got to face up to we must stick to what we have decided the fact that the present conditions on to do and get on with it instead of the pier are terrible and for the last wasting a whole day an the kind- of four years the Harbour Board and resolution whith is getting us nowhere.

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We are being told there is a lot of work - the passenger service to the Island is a before us and it is nearly four o'clock dying trade. It is certainly going down and we have only got to item No. 6 on at such a rate that we ought to take the agenda. I hope the Court will deal cognisance of it. We should say, It this expeditiously with this resolution and terminal building actually required for turn it down. the passengers who will come?" It may be required for other purposes—a Lt.-Cdr. Quine: I opposed the original casino or something like that. I could resolution in May last which is over say a lot more about this on rational six months ago and I consider I opposed grounds but I will not tire the Court. it on reasonable grounds. Anyone who But I feel I must support the resolution will draw a graph on the arrivals by and I congratulate the hon. member on steamer and impose on that the number his courage in bringing it forward. of people coming by aircraft will see exactly what is happening. Since the Mr Stephen: May I, under Standing 18th May last 22,000 fewer visitors came Order 54, move that the question be now by steamer. The average capacity of put? the Manx boats is 2.400 so that nine boatloads of people less came in that Mr Corkish seconded. way last year. The rate of descent if it Mr Stephen: Your Excellency. I kept going down would reach zero in gather that members of the Harbour 1967. We know perfectly well that Board wish to speak, and I would like would not happen because it would turn to withdraw my resolution that the off into a curve before very long. The question should now be put. rate of descent will be less, The rate of descent at present is so great that you Mr Kaneen: I am rather amazed that can see that the sea passage to the Isle the mover of the resolution could make of Man is no longer an exciting thing the statement that this will not bring at all. What is exciting to visitors is to one penny to the Island. Where would come by air and when hovercraft come the Island be now if the Government. that will be the exciting thing. I quite Douglas Town Council and other local agree with the hon. member for Dou- authorities had not spent money on glas • West, Mr Irving, who has pointed projects that did not bring in one penny out that it is travel in ten years time we to the Island? Thousands of pounds have got to consider. It is quite obvious were spent on the sunken gardens and that the Steam Packet has an enormous they don't bring in one penny piece. capacity. They could carry millions of This building at the pier must be worthy passengers more if they ran to capacity. of the Island—it is the front door of the They have eight steamers of an average Island and it has to set a standard capacity of 2,400-1 notice the chairman which I hope will be followed by the taking notes— (laughter) — and that rest of the buildings along the pro- gives 19.200 in one day. If they made menade which will house the people who two trips, which is well within their come here. ability they could carry 38,000 people in Members: Hear. hear. one day. But even in the halcyon days before the war they did not ever carry Mr Kaneen: This is long-term deve- 38,000 in one day. They did not carry lopment. Where are we to get in the 38,000. I have got the figures. We matter of progress in the Island if we could say four vessels would be able to are going to make a resolution one carry the passengers to-day and I pre- month and rescind it the next? How dict that the Steam Packet Company can development ever take place if that will have to sell steamers before long. I is to be the attitude? What the hon. would not be surprised if the Lady of member has said must remind one of Man is not the next one to go. On the history of the town, if anyone has rational grounds it is quite obvious that read it, when the men of Douglas Town

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Council got up and proposed that Bald- never. The men of the past had that win Reservoir should be built. No one confidence—the men who built Bald- wanted it. It was ridiculous and un- win—and I think that is the answer. heard of and members lost their seats Let us get on with it. through it—just as the hon, member has threatened we must lose ours. But now Mr Nicholls: Having by now regained Douglas blesses those men for their control of my emotions, after the im- foresight. passioned speech by the hon. mover of the resolution, during which I was Mr Corkish: That was only sixty nearly reduced to tears by his awful years ago. prophecies—I must say first of all I am Mr Kaneen: Yes, a short space of really appalled to find that there are time. It has been said that this is for some members of this Court who really the traffic of to-day, but this is nothing believe that traffic by sea is on its way new to the Harbour Board (pointing to out, I am really appalled to hear that. the model of a hovercraft). We have There is no evidence to say that. If we been in touch with these people for look to see what is happening with other twelve months, It may be that the force shipping companies in other parts of the of jets coming alongside the quay will British Isles we will see it is not the be too great, and there may have to be a case. British Railways are putting two ramp—a hard stand. But what is wrong brand-new, expensive luxury steamers with a ramp between the piers? on the Channel Islands run. One is Mr Irving: Hear, hear. already in service and the other is to come into service in time for next Mr Kaneen: Are we going to have a season. It does not took as if British third-class terminal for a first-class Railways are losing, confidence or the means of transport? Did the Airports people of the Channel Islands. It is Board look for a few disused huts when naturally very gratifying to me to find they were contemplating building their so many people using air travel. It air terminal? They put up a building pleases me very much as chairman of to be proud of—a building which would the Airports Board to see air travel help to entice people here and when increasing steadily. But it would not they arrived make them feel they were in the least be gratifying to find an people Of importance. That is the sort increase of 10,000 or 20,000 visitors by of thing we have to look to. This is not air to the Island if it was at the expense something for to-day or to-morrow. but of a similar number by sea. What for the years to come. The sum of better off would we be, Your Excel- £400,000 may look big and it is not lency. Surely it is up to us to make the what the Harbour Board originally sea journey as attractive as the Govern- asked for. We asked for £365,000 and ment has made air travel. The hon. and Government made it into 2400,000 for gallant member for Garff has given ease of borrowing and repayment. figures about the decline in sea travel. These were not plans that were made There has been a decline undoubtedly, overnight.. We had gone into them for but we must accept a certain amount of years and it was gone into thoroughly. responsibility ourselves for that. It has It is something which will be an asset become common practice to criticise the to the community—a worthy building operating company and whilst I am- not for a worthy town, which belongs to a going to support the company in every- worthy Island. That is what we want thing it does, I must, in fairness, men- people to think. We have got to have tion the new ships which are being faith in our Island's future, We can built for the Channel Islands traffic. either go ahead, or lack the confidence They are to be one-class ships and much and become a backwater. It is now or publicity has been given to the fact that

Victoria Pier Building—Motion to Rescind Prevous Resolution Rejected. TYNWALD COURT, JANUARY 17, LO61 697

there is to be a big reduction in the fare with regard to the suggested alternative on this one-class service, but the fare form of transport and, firstly, I would from Wales to Guernsey, which is ask the hon. member for Douglas West, exactly the same distance as that from Mr Irving, please to realise that I am Liverpool to Douglas, is to be £4 I8s, not in any way criticising or condemn- against the Isle of Man Steam Packet ing this alternative form of trans- Company's present fare which is under port— £3. Now I think we should recognise that, Your Excellency,, and not put all Mr. Irving: Will the hon. member the blame on the company but accept permit me to explain. At no time did I some ourselves, realising that this quite suggest that the Harbour Board has not unnecessary but constant criticism, been "on the ball" but that it has not which has lasted certainly all the four- been in consultation with Messrs teen years which I have served on the Saunders Roe. .Isle of Man Harbour Board, about the existing accommodation must take some Mr Nicholls: I quite appreciate the responsibility. The Harbour Board has hon. members point and I will say that acted in close co-operation, as the hon. I congratulate the hon. member, and his member for Douglas West has pointed brother, for their enterprise and out, with the Executive Council, and initiative in having brought over to the have been studying these matters for Island this very interesting model which four years, Not one member of the is in the Court, and giving an explana- Harbour Board is very anxious to tioni of this other projected form of spend this £400,000 of the taxpayer's transport in the form of a helicoPter in money, but after giving the matter the connection with which I believe Your most careful consideration over four Excellency is to travel--(laughter)-- years we came to the conclusion that if and I would congratulate the hon. we were to provide termiinar accom- member on his enterprise. When this modation which was worthy of the Isle project was discussed before several members rose on similar questions of Man as a holiday resort then we had about the future forms of transport and to face up to this cost. Now the ques- • the helicopter and the hovercraft were tion of the annual cost of borrowing mentioned: Helicopters were the has been raised. Now, I have made favourites at that time and there were inquiries and have found out that the also questions about a machine called interest and sinking fund on this sum the Fairey Rotadyne, It was quoted in will be approximately £26,000 per this Court that it would be the aero- annum. That may be quite a consider- plane of the future and that it was able sum of money,. but I would point almat on our doorstep—not round the out, Your Excellency, that a little corner even—but the truth is that the further on on our agenda we are going Rotadyne is dead. has not been pro- to be asked to vote £42,000 to increase ceeded with. So much for that. Also the remuneration of the doctors. Are there is not a single passenger helicopter we going to quote the same argument service in existence in Great Britain to- then that we cannot afford it? day beyond the small six- or eight-seater aeroplane. As long ago as I think nine A Member: If you don't get the or ten years, in company with one of our visitors here you will have to. colleagues, I made a very interesting visit to the Bristol Aeroplane works and Mr Nicholls: Of course, if we don't there we saw the first large helicopter— get the visitors here we shall have a twin-engined rota-helicopter designed money neither to pay the doctors nor to carry 24 or 26 passengers. We saw anyone else, I feel I must say a word it actually flying. It has been developed

Victoria Pier Building—Motion to Rescind Prevous Resolution Rejected. TYNWALD COURT, JANUARY 17, 1961 since that day; and I am speaking of a is running a helicopter service—B.E.A. matter of ten years ago—but it has still We put the case to them quite plainly not carried a single passenger. It has and asked for the answer and the now been re-christened.. I think, the answer we got was that on economic Bristol 193. but the company has still to grounds it was quite out of the question. sell one! It has not carried a single I have here a letter which I am not passenger, •so that we cannot pin our going to quote, but I have a• personal faith to that kind of project. We might letter from the Chief Executive in which wait for ever and it might never he gives the figures and says that the materialise. In connection with the cost of operating a helicopter service recent request from the people of would be, in the case of the existing Ramsey, sir, through the Ramsey small eighter-seater aircraft, £.8 a single C ornmissioners, that the Airport might journey and for the larger 193, when it consider various ways of helping the materialises, the cost would be halved, town of Ramsey by .getting a better that • is £4 .a single journey between service for the visitors one suggestion Ronaldsway and Ramsey and that gives was made, through their local news- some indication of the very high cost of paper, that the Airport should organise operating helicopters, based on figures a helicopter service between Ronalds- submitted by the only concern operating way and Ramsey— these craft in the British Isles— Mr Colebourn: On a point of order, A Member: What is the carrying Your Excellency, is the hon, member speaking to the motion? capacity? The Governor: He is, . Mr Nicholls: Eight for the small one and about 23 1 think for the large one. Mr Nicholls: I am speaking on the Furthermore, sir, I have here a photo- suggestion put forward by t the hon. stat copy of an article in one of the member for Douglas West that we leading technical aviation magazines should approve the resolution because it and it says in the heading, -as you can is likely in five or ten years time that see. "Britain should forget about heli- an alternative form of transport will be copters," and this from technical people. available and I think it is my duty from Now I come to the more recent form of the intimate knowledge I have, and transport represented by this very fine from the information which I have been model which we have in the Court to- able to obtain about this alternative day. As as engineer I would be the last form of transport, I feel it is my duty to member of the Court to pour cold put these facts before the Court, (Hear, water on a new invention in these days hear.) of scientific achievements. It would be a foolish man who Would . do so because Mr Colebourn: I never mentioned any of the risk of having to eat his words in alternative form of transport. the very near future, but we have to Mr Nicholls: I never said you did. consider facts and as a Government we cannot afford to indulge in gambling or The Governor: I rule that the hon. supposition. Now this has been be- member of the Council is in order. devilled by articles in the national Press. The plain fact• is that so far Mr Nicholls: :Thank you, sir. On the Saunders Roe have built a small experi- question of a link between Ronaldsway mental hovercraft. It operated success- and Ramsey, the Airports Board did fully an the Thames, and I believe it not turn it down or rule it out of order. crossed the English Channel. They are They did the obvious thing. They got now building a much larger passenger- in touch with the only authority which carrying model, or car-carrying model.

Victoria Pier Building—Motion to Rescind Prevous Resolution Rejected. TYNWALD COURT, JANUARY 17, 1.961 699

but the plain fact is not even the manu- The Governor: Is it agreed that the facturers themselves have any idea as question be now put. It requires, of to what purpose the machine will be course, that it has to be decided by the put. The prototyl.e certainly was pro- affirmation of two-thirds of the members mising but they do not know how the of the branches concerned. I will put larger type will operate. The hon. the motion that the question be now member mentioned that planes would put. That is on the merits of the ques- fly at three-halfpence per mile. I have tion being now put and not the resolu- . read articles of many types of planes. tion. The Vanguard, for instance, was to fly at a penny farthing cost per mile— The motion was put. leaving out the overheads, of course, are absolutely gigantic. In the process The Governor: I think it is a clear of being tested at present is the Avro two-thirds in favour that the question 748. It lowers the figure to one penny be now put, in which case I will call on per mile but all of these new types the hon. 'member for Castletown to would have to be operated over a period reply. of years before anyone could say with any certainty what the operating costs Mr Colebourn: Your Excellency, I do were going to be; what the economics apologise that the object of the resolu- of the machine were or whether they tion has been entirely lost in this toy would be wishful thinking. Now that that we have before us. Of course, I do is all I have to say on this subject, Your welcome it because we had another toy Excellency. As I have said I do not when this resolution for the building want to •pour cold water on it, but I do was placed before the Court, I would say, as a Government. we have to have like to express that at no time at all in proof before we disregard our present my moving the resolution did I mention forms of transport and put our money that I had the audacity to try to lead into something which might be a dead the Court into thinking I could see into . loss. I think we aught, in this Court, to the future or that I could visualise the support what we have already done and chairman of the Airports Board knock- to give all the assurance we can that we ing King William's College down to shall do our utmost for.a form of trans- extend his runways for Britannia air- port which has served the Island so well craft. Unlike the hon. member for in the past and present, and also to Douglas West, Mr Bolton, I am not an continue the support you have given in expert on the Blaw Knox machine and I the past to air travel, and for which I cannot give a forecast of the design or am most grateful. I intend to oppose the aerodynamics of the hovercraft. the resolution, sir. That is not the concern of my resolu- The Governor: I have just received a tion. My concern in the resolution is— report, gentlemen, that tea is ready. are we, as representatives of the people of the Isle of Man, are we in a position Mr Stephen: I move, sir, that the to spend half a million pounds on a sea question be now put. terminal on the Victoria Pier? I do again appeal to each member of both The Governor: I would prefer that branches to weigh this up very, very later. In the meantime I adjourn the carefully. I am perfectly prepared to Court for a few minutes for tea. accept the hon. member, Mr Irving's The Court adjourned for tea and re- amendment. I will accept anything to sumed a few minutes later. reduce the cost. Those are my terms of reference because I feel that the archi- Mr Stephen: Your Excellency. may I tect who designed the sea terminal now move, under Standing Order 54, could come along and design a terminal that the question be now put. costing a million pounds or as low as

Victoria Pier Building—Motion to Rescind Prevous Resolution Rejected. 7(11) TYNWALD COURT, JANUARY 17, 1961

£200.000 and I think the Harbour Board the balance sheet of a certain hotel would accept it. I have been told by quite close to the sea terminal and you peol.kle, who no doubt know all about it, will see how popular that part of Dou- that this has been under discussion in glas is. I agree -we have got to have the Harbour Board offices and the Eve- some sort of shelter there for People, cutive Council for a long time. but there is no need to spend half a million on it in the present state of the Deemster Kneale: Ten years. Island's finances. I beg -to move. Mr Colebourn: Would it be true to say The Governor: There is an amend- that this has been so long in the Har- ment to the motion proper in the name bour Board office—it may have been of the hon. member for Douglas West, thought up twenty or thirty years ago— Mr Irving, seconded by Mr Teare, the that it has got to the point that so much hon. member for Ramsey, and it is money has been spent on the design— "That the word 'rescinded' be left out there have been two or three architects, and the following words substituted 'be think, and two or three Harbour reconsidered by His Excellency the Lieutenant-Governor and the Executive Board engineers on it; I do know that Council with a view to a modified two or three engineers have been on it— scheme at a reduced cost.' That is at that they must go on with it as a face- the end of the resolution and I will now saver. That they cannot withdraw now, put the amendment. having spent so much money c)n the designs, they must go on with it. I am The Governor put the amendment and willing to accept Mr Irving's amend- declared it lost. ment. Mr Kaneen says "Let us build something worthy of the Island." By There was a call for a division, all means,. but not a damn sea terminal. The amendment went to a division Let us build an hotel. Why put a big, when the voting in the Keys- was as glittering facade up there. Look at the follows:— anti-climax the visitors are going to experience when they see this gleaming For: Messrs Corkhill, Radcliffe, Lt.- edifice and then go into Victoria Street Cdr. Quine, Quayle, H, S. Cain, and the Loch Promenade; when they see Colebourn, Irving, A. C. Teare and the houses and hotels we have. The the Acting-Speaker--9. time may well come when we do want something down there. I am an ardent Against: Messrs Crowe Nivison, supporter of sea travel. I love going Simcocks, McFee, Coole, Edward by boat and I still think an awful lot Callister, Stephen, Corkish„ Kaneen, of people are coming by boat. I do not Bolton-10. think the boats are finished. I agree with Mr Nicholls—I think there is a The Governor: Gentlemen, the amend- prosperous time ahead for shipping and ment is lost in the Council 1-6 (the only indeed for aircraft. But that is no member for was the learned Second reason for us to put up the building we Deernster) and by 9-10 in the Keys. t have been talking about on the Victoria will now put the motion. Uier. I have been in many sea termi- The Governor put the resolution and nals both in England and on the Con- declared it lost. tinent, but I have never seen anything like the enterprise which the Harbour There was a call for a division when Board have thought up. When people the voting in the House of Keys was:— land on the Victoria Pier their object I s to get away from it as quickly as For: Messrs Corkhill, Radcliffe, poSsible. You have only got to look at Lt.-Cdr, Quine, Quayle, H, S. Cain,

Victoria Pier Building—Motion to Rescind Prevous Resolution Rejected. TYNWALD COURT, JANUARY 17, 1981 701

Colebourn, A. C. Teare and the Tynwald that the Royal Assent has Acting-Speaker-8. been given to the National Insurance (Isle of Man) Act. On a technical Against: Messrs Crowe, Nivison, Simcocks, McFee, Cooler Edward point, I•think I should have asked the Canister, Stephen, Corkish, Kaneen, Court to suspend Standing Orders in Irving and Bolton-11. order that this Bill which you are now signing could, in fact, be signed. The Governor: Gentlemen, in the Council the motion has been lost unani- Agreed, mously. It was also defeated in the Keys 11-8. Before we proceed with item No. 7 I have before me this urgent Bill which has been considered in both ISLE OF MAN HEALTH SERVICES branches during the day, which has BOARD—VOTE OF X,42,200 FOR been read a ,third time, the Administra- MEDICAL OFFICERS' tion of Estates Bill and it is before me REMUNERATION for signature The Governor: And now item 7 on the Mr Irving: May I query your report of agenda and I call upon the chairman of the voting on the amendment, sir? How the Health Services Board. did the hon. member for Ramsey vote? Mr Kerruish (Acting-Speaker): I beg The Governor: He did not answer, but to move the following resolution:— if there is any doubt we can take the That the National Health Service (Isle of division again. Man) (Appointment of Specialists) Regula- tions. 1960, made by the Isle of Man Health Mr Irving: I am not suggesting that it Services Board on the 25th November, IWO, would alter the fate of the amendment, under section 10 of the National Health Ser- sir, but I queried your figures. vice (Isle of . Man) Act. 1548, be and the same are hereby approved. Mr A. C. Teare: I certainly recorded my vote "'for." While the members of the Court will recall that in April last funds were The Acting-Speaker: You were very voted for the remuneration of doctors, late. it must be made clear that the present Mr Stephen: There was a hiatus resolution is a wholly separate matter. before you voted. (Laughter.) The funds voted in April last were to enable the Board to effect a settlement The Governor:. On second thoughts with the doctors retrospectively to you would not be allowed by the rules April, 1952, since when the remunera- of this Court to refrain from voting. -tion of doctors had been the subject of Mr A. C. Teare: I did record my vote considerable discussion between the "for,?' sir. Board and the doctors. The present application, which was foreshadowed The Secretary: Then the result is nine when the Board's estimate of expendi- votes for and ten against. ture was being moved last year, arises from the acceptance in England of new terms of remuneration recommended by a Royal Commission set up in 1957 as a ADMINISTRATION OF ESTATES result of strong representations by the BILL SIGNED medical (and dental) professions. It is, Members proceeded to sign the of course, within the knowledge of the Administration of Estates Bill. Court that the doctors in the Isle of Man have consistently opposed any sug- The Governor: Whilst members are gestion that their remuneration be at a signing the Bill I have to announce to level determined for the Isle of Man,

Administration of Estates Bill Signed —Isle of Man Health Services Board— Vote of £42.200 for Medical Officers' Remuneration. 702 TYNWALD COURT, JANUARY 17, 1961

and have always pressed for the same same as hitherto, but with alterations to rates as are in force in England. In fees, the major items being (a) an in- fact„ they stated that medical services crease to 19s Gd per annum in the case in their present form could not continue of capitation fees, with an additional unless English rates applied in the Isle "loading" of 14s for every patient on a of Man. In keeping with their consis- doctor's list between (single-handed tent view of the matter, the doctors in practice) 401 and 1,600, or (partner- the Isle of Man have requested the ship) 501-1,700. Prior to the setting introduction in the Island of the new up of the Royal Commission" the capi- English rates; and the Board, who had tation fee and "loading" was 17s and undertaken to consider the matter when 10s respectively: the "loading" being reaching the settlement mentioned paid in respect of patients between 501 earlier, have come to the conclusion and 1,500 on a doctor's list; (b) An in- that if the present medical services are crease to 20s in respect of every tem- to be maintained and it is their opinion porary resident actually treated. The that they should be maintained, they previous figure was 17s, to which pay- cannot do otherwise than accept the ments on account were added as in the new rates. The Court will, of course, previous instance; Cc) An increase to wish to have information about the new £12 12s for complete maternity medical rates of remuneration, and it can be services, with higher fees than hitherto stated that so far as general medical when only partial services are provided. practitioners are concerned, the essen- The previous fee was £7 7s, with pay- tial point is that the Royal Commission ments on account as in the previous have recommended an increase to instances. For the purpose of bringing • £2,425 in the average net 'annual re- the payments made since 1956 up to the muneration per doctor. with some modi- new level, further amounts are being paid, calculated with due regard to the fications in fees for the purpose of payments on account, which, as men- ensuring the distribution to doctors, tioned earlier, have been made. The during the course of the financial year, method adopted is the payment of. an of the greatest possible proportion of additional 5.9 per cent, gross remunera- the distributable amount without the tion for the period 1st March, 1957 to necessity for a substantial adjustment 31st December, 1959, with,. as from 1st after the end of the year.. as has hitherto January, 1960, payment at the rate of been the case. A small adjustment, of 8 per cent, gross remuneration (less the order of 1 per cent, is, however, mileage), followed by, as from 1st April, expected. In order to secure the pay- 1960, payments at the rate of 17 per ment of the average net sum, an allow- cent, in respect of "loadings" and 60 ance has to be made for practice per cent, in respect of maternity medical expenses necessarily incurred in pro- services. These transitional adjust- viding general medical services, and the ments cease at 31st December, 1960, and amount allowed may be taken as as from 1st January, 1961, the new fees roughly one-third of the gross re- come into operation. This adjustment muneration, Superannuation contribu- is complex, but appears to be unavoid- tions are payable by the Exchequer in able in view of the payments on account addition, whereas these contributions which were made from 1957 to 1960. were previously found from the total The salaries of hospital medical staff distributable sum; and certain other have been increased, those of the more sums which in the past were charged junior posts, which have for a long against the total distributable amount time been regarded as inadequate, being are no longer to be so charged. The dis- markedly improved froth what they tribution amongst doctors is to be were previously. The salary of a effected on lines fundamentally the whole-time consultant at the .maximum

Isle of Man Health Services Board—Vote of £42,200 for Medical. Officers' Remuneration TYNWALD COURT, JANUARY 17, 1961 703

point of the scale is now £3,900 per • Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second and annum, compared with £3,100 in 1956, reserve my remarks. and £3,385 when payments on account Mr IVIcFee: Could the hon, chairman are added. There is to be an adjust- tell us whether there is any signed ment with retrospective effect to 1st agreement. of service with the doctors? March, 1957, but the precise sum neces- At one time I know there were no sary 'for this adjustment cannot at signed agreements existing. present be determined, and the estimate of the amount needed for this purpose Mr Nicholls: Could the hon. chairman is, therefore, conjectural. The Board's give us some idea of the amount of estimate of the amount which they money made by a general practitioner require,. if Tynwald approves of the under this new scheme? adoption of the new English rates, based The Governor: Does any other mem- on the information which they had then ber of the Court wish to speak before I received, has been formed with regard call on the hon. chairman to reply? to the existing - agreement with the Members: Vote, general medical practitioners that the fees payable in England be paid in the The Acting-Speaker: Your Excellency, Isle of Man, and that an adjustment be in reply to the hon. member for Rushen, made after the end of each financial Mr McFee,. there is in being no signed agreement. We have a working ar- year at the same rate as in England. rangement with the doctors, and it has The amount which Tynwald is being been—as the hon. member who was asked to vote, as will be understood formerly on the Health Services Board from what has been said, is to cover well knows—a most difficult thing to the period from 1st March, 1957 and get finalised any agreement in writing. comprises £21,950 in respect of general Indeed we cannot give any undertaking medical practitioners and £20,450 in that there will not be a further liability respect of hospital medical staff. it is to the Court for further increases in this possible, from later information, that section of the medical field. It seems some modification of the amount re- inevitable that there will be further lating to general medical practitioners increases. may be found necessary to cover the quarter ending 31st March next, but it Mr McEee: Are you committed to is considered that this point may con- English conditions? veniently be left over until the Board The Acting-Speaker: No, sir, we try to are aware of any savings there may be negotiate as far as possible, conditions from their vote for the current year. which are aPplicable to the Island. In The effect of the new terms of re- reply to the hon. member. Mr Nicholls. muneration for a single year is an esti- again if you would permit me, sir, I mated increase over 1958-59 of £8.900 would give the figures asked for. These for general medical services and £.7,600 are under the neW award, and are: for hospital medical staff. An extra £1,649; £3,842; £3,730; £4,053; £3,010; liability for superannuation contribu- £5,139; £3,032; £186; £3,407; £3,980; tions payable by the Board ,n res- £3,053; £2,097; partnerships, £9,125; pect of general medical practitioners £9,364; £6,128; £8,630; £8,425; £6,433; amounts to roughly £600. While the £2,296; and, finally, a single practitioner further liability is substantial, the with £1,18.5. Those, Your Excellency, Board consider, as mentioned earlier, are payments which are a general that they must accept the position in average for practices, order to ensure the continuance of the services concerned, and I, therefore, beg The Attorney-General: They don't in- to move the resolution standing in my clude private practices or fees for giving name. evidence in court?

Isle of Man Health Services Board—Vote of £42,200 for Medical Officers' Remuneration. 704 TYNWALD COURT, JANUARY 17, 1961

The Acting-Speaker: No, sir, they • last the amount then requested was more don't include those. than sufficient to cover anticipated ex- Mr McFee: How many doctors are penditure provided that in the year there? ended 31st March, 1961, all things were equal and comparable with the condi- The Acting-Speaker: At the present tions which had applied during the time there are 24 doctors on our list as financial year which ended on 31st opposed to 26 in 1956, March, 1960, when just over £1,223 had Mr Nivison: Could the hon. chairman been paid in respect of the service in tell us if when doctors attend the T.T. question. The purport of the Milk Races it is counted as part of their (Guarantee) Scheme is to give the normal remuneration? British Standard Review Price to Manx The Acting-Speaker: No, it is not part producers for a standard quantity of of their normal remuneration, It is a 1,850,000 gallons. This standard quality private arrangement between the pro- of milk is the liquid requirement of the moting body and the doctors. I should consuming public of the Island, plus a perhaps explain that such arrangement safety margin which is utilised by is negotiated between the A.C.U. and diversion. into the manufacturing the medical profession-. Their services market, After the vote of Tynwald for for the Manx Grand Prix are given free, the current year was taken there were His Excellency put the motion and it two significant changes in milk market- was agreed. ing in the Isle of Man, viz., (a) An in- crease of a penny per gallon in the retail distributive margin to conform with English conditions and which came into MILK MARKETING—VOTE FOR effect on the 1st July last; and (b) A £7,000 drop in the average price realised for The Governor: Item 8, I call on the milk sold for manufacturers and this is chairman of the Board of Agriculture estimated to be 3d a gallon less than the and Fisheries. price realised for the same class of milk in the year ended 31st March, 1960. It Mr Farrant: May it please Your Ex- is obvious, 'therefore, that all things cellency, I beg to move the following resolution:— were not equal, and the Board is now making a request to Tynwald in con- That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be formity with its usual practice of esti- authorised to apply from the current revenue mating initially as nearly as possible, of this Isle, during the year ending 31st March, 1961, a sum not exceeding 17,000 to without any over estimation and then defray expenditure incurred in connection coming to the Court for a supplemen- with the marketing of milk. tary vote. The outcome of the two Such sum to be in addition to the sum of factors which have changed and which 12,000 voted by Tynwald on the 22nd June, have been outlined is that instead of 1960. there being an excess on milk trading, It is asking for a supplementary vote of as was the case in 1959-1960 year, and £7,000 in addition to the £2,000 voted which was more than sufficient to pay by the Court on 22nd June, 1960, to the heat treatment allowance of £8,982 defray the expenditure incurred in con- paid to authorised milk vendors, there nection with. the marketing of milk. It will be a difficiency in the current finan- is not because of under-estimating but cial year of roughly £1,400, and there because of changed circumstances over will be nothing available on this occa- which the Board had no control what- sion to pay the heat treatment allow- ever. When the original vote of £2,000 ance, i.e., pasteurisation, estimated this was before the Court in March and June year to cost £7,500. Increased distribu-

Milk Marketing—Vote for £7,000. TYNWALD COURT, JANUARY 17, 1961 705 tive margins and less price for manu- costs of the Isle of Man Milk Market- facturing milk need some explanation. ing Association or the question of In the former case, authorised milk gallonage levies and cow levies on pro- vendors are allowed the same margins ducers. This vote is concerned with the as apply in England and any increase guarantee of milk on the lines of the granted to the vendors without corres- Imperial policy and in conformity with ponding increase to the'seller (in this the stability which is the underlying case the Isle of Man Milk Marketing . factor of the Agriculture Acts of both Association) means a loss in revenue 1947 and 1957 on the Statute Book in to the seller, This _drop in revenue can the United Kingdom. The supplemen- be made good in two ways only, namely tary vote required will not mean that an increase in 'price to the consumer or the total amount requested from the an increase in the direct contribution Court in respect of the current finan- towards milk by Government. The cial year will be exceeded, There has policy in the Isle of Man has been to been a saving in connection with the keep down the cost of any product to the guarantees On fatstock for the year, and consumer. 'and the fact should not be the position is that the amount of total overlooked that the major portion of expenditure of £444,225 on the Board's the amount voted for milk in the current vote will not be fully spent. This is financial year is for heat treatment, merely a diversion of money voted to which is in effect a public health fatstock into another avenue pf guaran- matter. In England at the present time, tee—in this case milk. The additional the lowest price for any class of milk • sum now being requested from the is 13c1 per pint, but that is a maximum Court keeps the Board's requirements price and operates for six months as within the limits of the total submitted from 2nd October, 1960. The current to the Court in June, Manx price is fixed at 71d per pint. In the year ended 31st March, 1960, an Mr Corkhill: Your Excellency, I beg to average price of 22id per gallon was second the resolution and I feel that realised on milk sold for manufacture, there is nothing I can add to what I but in the current financial year the think has been a very clear explanation price will be something in the region of of a rather complicated position. I feel. 19d per gallon. The year which ended Your Excellency, that this will keep us in March, 1960, was exceptional from a in line with the Imperial Government pricing standpoint, and the manufac- as arranged under the Marketing Act. turing price of milk did not follow the It has been mentioned that there might pattern of the previous year in the be an increase in the price 'of milk in United Kingdom. The Isle of Man the summer but I hope that does not follows the Imperial price, and the happen as it would not be good for the enhanced average obtained in the 1960 industry to increase the price of milk year ending was due to abnormal cir- and that the Court will not ask us to do cumstances prevailing. There was a so and lose those sales. global shortage of cheese, and in Eng- land the amount of milk which could be The Attorney-General: Your Excel- devoted to the product was restricted. lency, as hon. members will have noted The Isle of Man benefited accordingly. from reading the letter notifying that The pattern in the year which ends in this matter was to appear on the agenda March next has tended towards a return the last paragraph state 'sthat His Excel- to normal conditions in cheese-making, lency is prepared to lay the matter and probably the diversion to cheese before the 'Court for consideration to- production of more surplus milk. The day and, in the meantime, will discuss vote before the Court has nothing the proposals further with the Board of whatever to do with the administrative Agriculture and Fisheries and the out-

Milk Marketing—Vote for £7,000. 706 TYNWALD COURT, JANUARY 17, 1961

come of this discussion will be reported Mr Bolton: Your Excellency, I )aeg to to Tynwald and that I have -to do nov;,.. second that and I would, like to put The question of this vote really raises forward a point Of view in opposition to the question as to how the necessary the point put forward by the chairman money to provide for the heat treat- of the Board of Agiculture. Now the ment, and the other matter mentioned whole basis of this suggestion, that we by the hon. member is to be made and should find a' further £7,000, is that it could be made in two ways—by direct sales of milk would drop if the price of Government .assistance„ which in the milk was increased and the suggestion proposal contained in the resolution, or. is that it might be. that the producers it can be mentioned, by increasing the would • suffer by reason of the fall in retail price of milk. The matter'which liquid sales. The Government pays was discussed by His Excellency and the on 1,850,000 gallons in a year, and Executive Council this morning waS to if the sales fall the Government must inquire why the Board of Agriculture pay more to make it up. I am quite felt the retail price of milk should not sure a prudent man would say, "Let us be increased, rather than pass the first of all find out if the • sales fall .burden off to the Government and the before we do anything." ' The Board Board quite fairly stated that, in their suggests we pay because the Board say view, as the hon, member for Glenfaba, the sales will fall. Mr Corkhili, has said, this might pre- judice retail sales. There is an equally Mr Farranta Who said that? strong argument, in fact, a stronger argument, that the retail price should Mr Bolton: It is a fact. That has been be increased and the argument. is this: said, "We feel if the price is increased for exactly the same reasons as this the sales will fall." If sales do fall the resolution appears on the agenda paper, producer does not suffer one whit as the United Kingdom has, since the 1st Government has to and the difference October, increased the retail price of on extra gallonage between the realisa- milk to 8d per pint and, in Jersey, the tion price and the full price. I would retail price of milk has been increased suggest from the Government point of to no less than 91d a pint. In the Isle view we might well say we will pay if of Man at the present time it is.70. I sales do fall but why should we antici- can appreciate the Board would feel pate' it and take on the burden of a concerned at the possible effect_ on the further £7000 when we have the retail sales if the price was increased by example of the United Kingdom. who a halfpenny but His Excellency in put the price up by Ad a pint in Novem- Executive Council felt the fear is not ber. We know the price of milk in the well-founded and would not affect sales Island is Thd a pint while in England it in the manner the Board contemplate is 8d and the same milk in Jersey is and there has been no effect in England igd. Here we have a suggestion that since the increase of Ad per pint was we should burden ourselves with a made. The point has been made, in further £7.000 when it might be un- fact, that the sales, the retail sales, have necessary by adopting the same method increased notwithstanding the increase as the United Kingdom. I suggest we in price. These matters you have to should wait and see what the effect is. consider and I am formally moving an The position, too, is this: In July an amendment, which is appkved by His increase of id per gallon was given to Excellency in Executive Council,. to add compensate the retailer for his expenses to the resolution the following 'provided If we are going to say if milk is 5s a that the Board of Agriculture and gallon give the retailer au extra id it Fisheries increase the retail price of must come out of the producer. If milk by one halfpenny 'a pint forthwith." Government is guaranteeing the milk

Milk Marketing—Vote for £7.000. TYNWALD COURT, JANUARY 17, 1901 707

to the producer Government is bearing . Mr Kaneen: I, am going to oppose the the extra 1d which is being awarded to resolution and the amendment. 1 do the vendor because of his costs. There not like the idea of the Board of Agri- seems to be no reason why that extra ciiiture doubling the amounts. Secondly, id should not be passed on to the can see no valid reason why the price public. Why should. the Government of milk should be increased in the assume responsibility for everything Island because it is dearer in England that happens in the management of the and the Channel Islands. 1 would point Isle of Man Dairies or other ventures? out that the price of bread is dearer The 'other factor is that the realisation here than in England. Why not bring price of milk is effected in Britain and the price of bread down on the same in the Island by over-production. Last principle. Then again, talking about year the price of cheese-milk went up to milk, we should look at the report of the Local Government Board when they something like 2s and -as a result there prepared their estimates on 12th April. was a gradual steady increase in the 1960. They said at that time the Board's amount of milk produced and now pro- inspectors had inspected 812 samples of duction is about a million gallons over foodstuffs, including 650 samples of the standard, which has to be sold at milk, of which 316 were unsatisfactory. realisation price on which the farmer In over 50 per cent, of the complaints has no guarantee whatever. He has they. were justified. Only recently we taken the chance of increasing over the were talking of 1 per cent. of boarding past' two years. If. therefore, by his houses as being in a bad state. Berc own policy there is a reduction in the we have 50 per cent, milk which is realisation price why should we, the found to be unclean from agricultural Government, be called on to make it up people but not a word is said about it. to him? This is part of the reason for .this reduction in price for milk which is Mr Corkhill: I think we should have sold over and above the Island' re- this clarified. quirements. The cheese-milk price has been reduced from 2s down to about Mr Kaneen: Are you raising a point ls 5d or is 4d. That has made a very of order? great difference to the amount required The Governor: I think we should to fulfil the Government's guarantee, I allow the hon. member to continue. agree the position is that we should pass this on to the public by an increase of Mr Kaneen: This is the Local Govern- Id a pint in the same way as in Eng- ment Board's report and it has been land. Unfortunately we cannot oppose placed before this Court. The hon. the resolution because as the Board did member for Michael at the last Court not increase it on November 1st we have suggested that the hon. member for lost the benefit of November and Decem- Rushen should tighten the joints1 be- ber and part of January and by the end cause 1 per cent, of complaints had been of . March we cannot recoup all the made against boarding house keepers. 1 money, The Board will have to succeed think he should also tell the hon. with the resolution, but .1 hope that if member for Rushen to tighten the taps the amendment is acceptable to the and stop the water coming through. In Court then the amount required will be this case 50 per cent of the complaints minimised and will not reach .E.7,000. were justified. I see no justification for From the moment the price is increased increasing the price of milk to the con- there will be an additional 4d a gallon sumer because it is dearer in England coming in to meet part of the defi- and the Channel' Islands. Why should ciency. I feel we have to follow that we compare these prices with England line rather than follow the line that the when we. take no regard to the price of increase in price will -affect sales. bread? If we do it with one commodity

Milk Marketing—Vote for £7,000. 708 TYNWALD COURT, JANUARY 17, 1961 we should do it with every commodity. is back-biting. They should have Let us have the same prices in the advised the Board of Agriculture to Island as they have in England. The withdraw the resolution and negotiated cost of living would be much cheaper with the Board and then presented to taken over all if they were the same as Tynwald-something which was accept- England. I think before any more able to the Board of Agriculture and His money is paid in this respect there is a Excellency. It is a terrific position we very just case for investigation of the are facing in my opinion. I believe the whole set-up of this milk business. only thing that we who believe in government by the people fordhe people Mr Nivison: The question of whether can do is to support the Board of Agri- we should support the vote for addi- culture in their proposals if for no tional money, important though it is, other reason as a protest against the is of minor importance to the sensa- situation with which this Court has been tional development which has taken presented this afternoon. I will support the resolution. place this afternoon in our administra- • tion. Tynwald has appointed a Board Mr Radcliffe: I wish to support the of Agriculture to be the administrators resolution and oppose the amendment. of agriculture in the Island. They may The chairman of the Board has put the not administrate as everyone would like picture very clearly and I hope hon. them to do,. but they come forward with members realise what he did say when a resolution which is their considered he spoke about heat treatment and the opinion and then we get the official sum of £7,500. That is a health matter opinion of the Executive Council in in the treatment of milk. Get that direct opposition to the Board. In my clear. The figure he mentioned of opinion this is biting at the whole basis £1,326 may possibly arise in the of democratic government in the Island. guaranteed price. No one can tell what If the Lieutenant-Governor and the will happen but that amount may not be necessary. The Attorney-General Executive Council had seen there was a moved the amendment for exactly the fault in the proposal being put forward same reason as the resolution is on the by the administrators of our agricul- agenda—because the United Kingdom tural system in the Island it was, in my has increased its price for milk, In opinion, for them to get hold of that England there is a practice to have Board and point it gut and withdraw summer and winter prices. They are the resolution and come forward with presently on winter prices and for the an agreed resolution. It is quite wrong information of members of the Court for us to be placed in this dilemma. the price is a maximum price but the Some may feel we must take the respon- price normally charged for milk except sible viewpoint by supporting the in some places and I believe the Co-op. opinion put forward by the Attorney- is 8d a pint for pasteurised milk. The General on behalf of the Executive price for T.T. milk is 8d per pint, and in Council. Others may say, "We have fact in England now all milk is attested appointed the Board of Agriculture who and the milk is sold at T.T. milk. Now have given this their full consideration T.T. farmed milk and T.T. farm bottled and we must support them." I am not milk in England is tlid per pint: milk prepared to support this amendment put from Channel Island cows and Devon forward by the Attorney-General, sup- cows is 10d a pint, and I am quoting ported by the hon. member for Dou- these figures to let the Court realise the glas West as, in my opinion, it is not prices which are paid for milk else- constitutional that a Board of Tynwald where. In the Island it is 7icl per pint should be faced with such a prepos- throughout the year. -We are not decry- terous suggestions that the Government ing that, but I am very surprised that

Milk Marketing--Vote for £7,000. TYNWALD COURT, JANUARY 17, 1961 709 the learned Attorney-General should Mr Radcliffe: Yes, a penny more. The want to increase the price when the English price is based on the price the facts are that any increase would affect produced gets and the prices paid in boarding-house keepets and every resi- England for milk is a penny more— dent in the Island-- Mr Simcocks: You said a penny less. A Member: And old-age pensioners. Mr Radcliffe: The Manx farmer gets Mr Radcliffe: When the learned a penny less. It does not matter how Attorney-General . was putting forward much milk the Manx farmer produces his case for an increase in the price of he gets a fixed price. milk why did he -not continue and tell the whole story. He was speaking on Mr Bolton: We know that. behalf of the Executive Council and I Mr Edward Canister: Re knows he is wonder if the Executive Council are over-producing, aware that in the United Kingdom, although the sales of milk for the cur- Mr Radcliffe: Actually referring to rent year are up on last year. that this the matters quoted by the hon. member year the Milk Marketing Department for Douglas East, Mr Kaneen, actually I and its associates are spending close on am not an expert on that but there are £2,000,000 on advertising milk; they are certain tests made on milk, and some running competitions to increase sales are considered to be far too extreme and they are awarding prizes for this even by the milk authorities. The sort of thing; in other words, the Milk decisive point of these figures do indi- Marketing Department in England is cate (I am not accepting them) that conducting a very extensive campaign there is another reason why milk to encourage the consumption of milk should be treated with heat. from which, incidentally, we may bene- Mr Bolton: Could I ask the hon. fit, but the learned Attorney-General member who paid for the heat treat- only gave part of the story. Why not ment last year. mention it here instead of saying—as also did the hon. member for Douglas Mr Radcliffe: I can explain that. too. West, Mr Bolton—that in England when Last year the producer paid for it the price went up consumption also owing to the fact, as the chairman went up, The Milk Marketing Board. mentioned—that there were excesses of as I have said, have launched a most profit in the milk trade and instead of extensive campaign costing close on the milk producers taking that profit, it £2.000,000 and Mr Bolton said that the was used to pay for the heat treatment. Manx farmer, with a low brim has brought this on himself. Mr Bolton: Of course it was. Mr Bolton: I did not say that. I said Mr Radcliffe: There is no "of course" that over-production in the United about it—the money paid for the heat Kingdom and the Isle of Man affected treatment- the price, and that was what was hap- pening in the United Kingdom and Deernster' Kneale: To preserve their particularly in the Isle of Man. milk for sale. Mr Radcliffe: Mr Bolton is also aware Mr Radcliffe: And going back to Mr that the price obtained in the Isle of Kaneen, who spoke about the report of Man for surplus milk is restricted and the Local Government Board on milk that the English producer gets a penny samples — well, you could get two less-- lawyers and two doctors and they would both present different sides of the case. Mr Bolton: A penny more. I am trying to keep the issue simple,

Milk Marketing--Vote for £7000. 710 TYNWALD COURT, JANUARY 17, 1961 but this should be of interest to mem- health or in the interests, as has been bers who think that the Manx farmer suggestea by some of the speakers, of and everyone else is doing so well—on preserving the milk for the producers. December, 1960, the average price paid (Dissent.) I feel that originally pas- to producers was 3s per gallon; teurisation was suggested purely from a Northern Ireland the price was 3s 8d health point of view and not to preserve per for ordinary milk and for T.T. milk milk for the producer and I feel if heat an extra fourpence per gallon—that is treatment is necessary why should the 4s per gallon—and that is just one of people who want it not pay for it, I do the facts which this Court can accept not see why people who buy from the and which will make members realise producer-retailer, ordinary T.T. milk what the profits are. I have here the should have to pay for milk which has prices paid throughout the United been specially processed. I feel if I Kingdom month by month and area by want a special article I should be pre- area, but I am just quoting some to indi- pared to pay, more for it than for the cate that in the Isle of Man as far as ordinary_ commidity. I feel that the milk is concerned, the producer is ordinary milk, which is, after all, T.T. getting a low return and that milk is attested and free from tuberculosis, is being retailed throughout the year at a sufficient for the needs of the people very low price—lower than that ruling and that the price of milk should not be in the United Kingdom—and if this increased for the sake of special com- Court wishes to increase the cost of modities, and I want to take this living to everyone, well and good, go opportunity of referring to the question ahead, but this payment has only come of cheesemaking in the Isle of Man. about, as has been explained by the There is one thing which should receive chairman of the Board, for two reasons, some publicity and it is this—that the the lower realised value and the in- cheese which is made in the Isle of Man creased margins guaranteed to the has no keeping quality-25 per cent. .of vendor, and I hope the Court will accept it is wasted. It does not last two days the resolution. before it starts to go mouldy—(dissent Mr McFee: I was rather surprised, and cries of "No") and I can assure you Your Excellency, to hear the amendment that shopkeepers throughout the Island moved by the learned Attorney-General will tell you that Manx cheese will go because I feel this item should not have rotten in no time. been on the agenda paper at all if he--- The Acting-Speaker: Your' Excellency. I wish to support the resolution and the The Attorney-General: It says in the amendment, The position in the Isle of letter that His Excellency did not agree Man is that the Government stabilised with it. the milk producer as in England but the fact that there was no bonus premium Mr McFee: His Excellency could have on certain grades of milk has made a withheld the matter off the agenda until difference; secondly, the producer can- some finality and been reached with the not get the overall payment as in Eng- Board, and I would like to ask is this land. The responsibility for stabilising the position—is the reason because of production and maintaining guarantees the new estimate for milk which has for gallonage still rests on the shoulders been inaugurated by the producer- of Government, and in tabling the reso- (dissent)—which has• resulted in the lution I believe the Government have necessity for more heat treatment be- taken up a very realistic attitude. They cause it seems to me to be a matter of are suggesting that the time has come "who should pay" and if heat treatment when Manx prices in the Island should is necessary, is it in the interests of be on the same level as the absolute

Milk Marketing—Vote for ,C.7,000. - TYNWAI,D COURT, JANUARY 17,1961 711

minimum applicable elsewhere. Now, order to preserve their products. We Your Excellency, I understand that the get a certain amount of nonsense but Board of Agriculture (unfortunately I was unable to attend the Executive Council when the whole position was Deemster Kneale: I don't mind a joke discussed with the Board of Agricul- now and again, but this is going a bit ture) were not i gnored, as has been too far. All I said was that milk was suggested by many members— heat treated to preserve it for sale, The Acting-Speaker: It is no duty of Mr Nivison: Was there an agreement. the producers to heat treat to preserve The Acting-Speaker: No: an agree- their product for the consumer. It was ment was not reached; that is why the the Local Government Board, in their resolution is before us; nor was agree- wisdom, who have been all for heat ment reached on turkeys; nor has agree- treatment. ment been reached on potatoes; nor has Mr Nivison: On a point of order, agreement been reached on Your Excellency, it was not a question Mr Irving: Castle Mona? (Laughter.) of the Local Government Board asking for this, it was by a firm of milk dis- The Acting-Speaker: Whether that tributors asking for it in order that they comes into agriculture I do not know, could distribute the milk more easily. sir—(renewed laughter)—but neverthe- less, as the hon. member for Douglas A Member: Mix the milk. South said, we must make up our minds and what I am saying to the Court is Mr IVIcFee: The Local Government you must make up your mind on these Board have always been in favour of it negotiations and go back to the on the grounds of health. formula of English prices for the pro- The Acting-Speaker: It cannot be ducer-- done as a producer responsibility. I A Member: And the consumer. support the resolution and the amend- ment. In closing, sir, I would say let The Acting-Speaker: As long as you us try and come closer to England, In get the full English range it should be two months time the estimates will be followed in the Isle of Man, and what- before us for 1961-62. I hope in those ever is "free" in England they should estimates that the Board of Agriculture be "free" here, We have already had it will come forward with a complete tie- indicated that the Board are ignoring a up with English prices and conditions, resolution passed by this Court not so many months ago on the European Mr Farrant: Your Excellency. I find Common Market and is leading, I am myself in a little difficulty. I didn't realise informed, to difficulties all along the that the learned Attorney-General was line. I do not think we will have any going to speak on this . Matter., 1 peoce until the final object is achieved, assume • he was speaking for you, and, and I am supporting this resolution be- therefore I am not prepared to enter cause it will go a long that way, and I into any debate with regard to your am very glad that the hon. member for views. But, with the greatest respect. Douglas West, Mr Bolton, has indicated I cannot accept the amendment, On that he would favour English conditions this particular matter we met the in this matter. I do feel, sir„ that there Executive Council this morning and have been many improbable remarks had discussions. I think 1 indicated to made in the debate to-day—particularly you then that I could not accept the by the learned First Deemster, who said amendment. I would like to make a that the producers heat treated milk in passing remark on one or two of the

Milk Marketing—Note for £7.000, 712 TYNWALD COURT, JANUARY 17, 1961

Observations of the learned Attorney- think it is desirable. 'The Price Fixing General. I think all those comparisons Committee were in agreement with the which he brought forward are really Board. I would ask the Court to pass just red herrings. He said that Channel the resolution as it stands. There is one Island milk was very, very much more. other thing. I am sorry the hon. member Channel Island milk has always been for East Douglas should feel so bitter dearer, in England—a very much higher against the Board and I have taken note price than anything else. If you are of what he said, but I am very glad to going to use that argument this after- see he agrees that prices should not go noon, we heard from the chairman of up. the Airports Board, in his capacity of being vice-chairman of the Harbour His Excellency put the amendment, a Board, that the boat fare between Wey- division was called and the voting in mouth and Guernsey was double the the Keys was as follows: price charged by the Steam Packet. On the learned Attorney-General's argu- For: Messrs Stephen, Irving Bolton ment, we should pass a resolution that and the Acting-Speaker-4. the Steam Packet Company put their Against: Messrs Corkhill, Crowe. fares up. Comparisons are odious in Radcliffe, Lt.-Cdr. Quine. Messrs many cases. These comparisons bear no Nivison, Quayle, H. S. Cain, McFee, relation to the subject matter which we Coale, Colebourn, Edward Canister, are concerned with. Now with regard to the hon. member for West Douglas, Corkish, Kaneen, Gale and A. C. I cannot possibly argue with him an Teare-15. figures. He feeds and thrives on figures. The Governor: Gentlemen, the amend- But I would just like to pay a passing ment is lost in the Council 3-4, those tribute to Mr Bolton and the calculating voting for being His Honour the First committee for the great help they give Deemster, the learned Attorney-General to the Board. When you get into frac- tions and those sort of things they are and Sir Ralph Stevenson. The motion a great help, but on this occasion as amended is also lost in the Keys, cannot agree to accept this amendment. 4-15, It seems to me that the issue is perfectly simple. This money has to be found His Excellency put the substantive largely for heat treatment. There are motion and this was agreed. only two ways in which it can be found The Governor: Gentlemen, it is now —either by putting the price up for the past six o'clock and it is time to consumer, or indirect taxation by the Government paid. The Board have adjourn. We must clearly meet to- taken a very strong view that they don't morrow in order to complete our agree with putting up prices for milk. business. What time do you suggest? The price of 7d has been a stable one. Members: Eleven o'clock. They don't oppose this for fear that sales will go dawn, they don't think it is The Governor: The Court will stand a wise move to put up the price of milk. adjourned to 11 a.m. to-morrow. If it does, you will get children, nursing mothers, old-age pensioners and people The Court adjourned to 11 a.m, the who come to the Island suffering. It next day. Wednesday, 18th. January, will reflect on the Island and they don't 1961.

Milk Marketing—Vote for E7,000.