Queensland
Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]
Legislative Assembly
TUESDAY, 6 NOVEMBER 1895
Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy
Question of Privitef!e. [6 NoVE:Mmm.] Savings Bank, Etc., Bill. 1561
I refer to the report on page 472 of the pro ceedings in reference to the motion for the approval of the plans of the proposed railway extension from Mirani to Cattle Creek. The SPEAKER : Do I under;tand that the hon. member is referring to something that took place in committee ? Mr. POWERS: I am referring at present to '' Votes and Proceedings." The SPEAKER : Recounting something that took place in committee ? Mr, POWERS: Yes. The SPJ
The Act provides that the Governor in Council the savings bank, it would require at the shall regulate the rate of interest from time to very least £200,000 or £300,000 to carry on its time, and there is a minimum rate of 3 per cent. business. A private bank gets no interest upon and a maximum of 5 per cent. Dealing now its working balance, whilst the savings bank with the investment of money, and seeing that in its relation to the Treasury gets interest the Act requires that two-thirds of the whole not only upon its investments, but also upon of the moneys deposited shall be invested in its working balance, calculating the amount Queensland Government securities, it will be upon the average weekly balance. It may be obvious to hon. members that this £500,000 asked what is the use of these securities at all? which is locked up in the Queenshmrl National \Vell, their use is simply to secure the depositors. Bank for some years to come is not available for It might hapyen that a very large number of this purpose. The trustees of the bank are, depositors might wish to draw upon their therefore, notable to comply with the provisions of accounts. That is a consummation I should the Act, and it is very desirable that they should very much like to see-people withdrawing their be in a position to do so. · This Bill, therefore, money for the purpose of investing it in private provides that, as far as regards this £500,000 enterprise, either taking up land, or embarking which is locked UJ•, we shall issue Government in mercantile transactions, or in any ordinary debentures for an equal amount. and that these business. debentures shall be handed over. to the trustees Mr. GLASSEY: They should lend it to the of the bank to be held for the savings bank. State for the purpose of enabling the State to do The Act provides that thc> trustees can deal with that. the securities held by them in only one way. The COLONIAL TREASURER: That is They are not allowed to speculate, or to buy and what we do now, but it would be just as well for sell. As soon as they h:we invested in the the community at large if a very considerable securities, they must hold them until a certain portion of this money was devoted to other pur conting\ncy_ arises, and that contingency is the poses. That is to say, instead of letting it lie in bank bemg m need of cash. In order that this the savings bank, it should be circulated. It is fact shall be fully ascertained, the Act provides not the object of the trustees or managers to hold that the trustees mu"t get a certificate from the out great inducements to people to put their Auditor-General and the Under Secretary for money in the savings bank. The savings the Treasury to that effect. 'Without that certifi bank is not intended for that kind of thing. cate, the trustees cannot deal with the securi It is intended more for small savings. ln ties in any shape or form. They must hold England and other places, the limit of savings them until such contingency arises. Hon. bank deposits is very small-something like £30. members will see that if the Act were compiied With our savings bank we allow as much as with, and two-thirds of the moneys held by the £200; anything beyond that carrie,~ ne interest. bank were invested in Government securities, On the other hand, we provided last year for the :md at the same time this £500,000, which is in vestment of trust and other moneys not likely equal to one-quarter of the deposits in the bank, to be required for a long time. That is one of the two together are· equal to eleven-twelfths of the objects of the Bill-to put the savings bank the whole of the funds which would be locked up, securities on a thoroughly sound and good basis, and there would, therefore, be only one-twelfth such a basis as will enable those securities to be left for a cash working balance, which, of course realisable at any time, on the best and most would not be sufficient. But in order that thes~ favourable terms. There is another thing that I securities so handed over to the trustees shall not have incorporated in this Bill, which arises in in any way increase the loan indebtedness of the this way : suppose such a difficulty happened colony, this Bill provide~ further that as as I ha,·e mentioned, and . the savings bank soon as ever the £500,000 shall be released required a large amount of cash, I think that, not by the Queensland N atiunal Bank, and withstanding the opinion of the hon. member for Mhall be available, either the debentures which Clermont that a million and a half of securities are issued under the Bill shall be cancelled and could be realised in Brisbane, nothing like that if the contingency which I mentioned before amount could be realised ; probably not more d~es n<;t arise-·and it is very unlikely that it than half a million. I have always been of opinion wrll anse-then the £500,000 shall be spent in that the savings bank would be in a very much the purchase of some other Government secu better position if a part of its securities were rities, the loan indebtednBss of the colony held in London, which is the great centre of the remaining exactly the same as it is at present. floating capital of the world. I know the hon. But it may occnr to some hon. members that the member for Clermont is of opinion that we same object would be attained, so far as the ought to sell all our loans in the colony. I savings bank is concerned, if the extended do not think that is practicable. I do not deposit receipts of the Queensland National think in a young colony like this it is prac Bank could be, treated as if they were Govern ticable to have a large amount of accumulated ment securities. But I do not think it would do capital available at any time for investment. any good to the saving, bank, because, if the We have to go outside the colony to get any large bank required to realise, it could realise much sums of money when occasion requites them. better upon Government secunties Lhanupon bank \Ve must look at these things from the very extended deposit receipts, and it is therefore worst point of view. Suppose the very worst decidedly to the benefit of the bank to do it in happened and a panic was established, confidence t~e way I have proposed in thi" Bill. It prac in the savings bank was lost, and depositors trc":llY effects .the same object, and it puts the were rushing to withdra-w their money. In that ~avmgs bank m the muc~ be~ter position, and it case the securities would require to be realised, IS onr duty to see that an mstrtution of that sort and probably the banks would not be able to is secured right up to the hilt. I may mention give any assistance in the shape of the money incidentally, although it does not affect the that would be required. But if we allow a question before us, that, as far as the Treasury is £1,000,000 or so to lie in London it would be a concerned, so far as I have been able to learn, the very simple thing to cab!~ to the Agent savings bank has always received every considera General or the Bank of England and get tion. In fact, the savings bauk, in its relation those securities placed at once on the market, to the Treasury, is in a position that no other and by the very next steamer coming bank could be in. No private' bank could out to Queensland an equivalent amount of carry on business without an available credit sovereigns would arrive here; and the greatest balance of working funds. In the case o[ inconvenience that would result in this Savings Banlc [6 NOVEMBER.] ( Seaurities) Bill. i563 extraordinary case-which is highly improbable mittee. If the debentures are issued it will would be a delay to depositors of not more than simply mean that the colony will owe £500,000 two mouths. I propose therefore to give the more than it owes at present, and the money trustees power to hold a certain amount cf will be lying in the banks. That is a contingency securities in some place beyond the colony. l the hon. gentleman does not at all anticipate, advise London, so that the money will be avail but that is one of the reasons for the necessity of able whenever required. To show you that the Bill. I hope that contingency will not arise. there is not so very much floating c:tpital in I would ask the hon. gentleman how he proposes the colony as some people imagme, you have to take up these debentures, but that is a matter only to look to the returns under the Savings of detail, which can be left till the Bill is con Bank Stock Act passed last session. Some sidered in committee. As the Bill is intended people imagined that an immense amount of to safeguard the position of the savings bank, I money would be invested under that Act. I intend to support the second reading. · put it down at £100,000 and my estimate The HoN. J. R. DICKSON : It is rather was very near the mark. During the operation difficult to gather from the remarks of the of the Act in twelve months we have only Treasurer the full scope of the Bill, which received .£100,000. A great part of that was requires a good deal of consideration. The really not money from the public, but from the desire of all Treasurers ha a been to nurse the assurance fund under the Real Property Act, savings bank; but I can hardly look upon this from which we received £45,000, and a portion Bill as going quite in that direction. I may be of the remainder consists of bank reserves which ·labouring under a misapprehension, but the have been put into that fund. A few facts uf .£500,000 debentures proposed to be issued are to that sort are worth a great deal more than bear 3~ per cent., while the extended deposit theory. The depositors of the savings bank receipts in the Queensland National Bank bear would be in a very much safer position if money 4~ per cent. Is the savings bank to be deprived was held outside the colony. Heel quite satisfied of that source of profit in connection with the that it would be to the ad vantage of the bank, difference in interest between the debentures the depositors, and the colony that a large and the deposits in the Queensland National portion of these securities should be held where Bank? Extended deposits in the Queensland capital is always floating and always available. National Bank, with the Government as first The securities at present are examined every six creditor, are equal to any debentures we can issue. months by the Auditor-General, an:! reported Though it may be fulfilling the provisions of the Act upon by him to this House. If they are in of 1870 to have debentures lodged with trustees to London he will not be able to perform that duty, the extent of two thirds of the amount of de but the Bill provides that he should get a posits, instead of having it in banks as extended certificate from the Agent-General or some other deposit receipts, I do not see that any financial responsible officer. Those are the provisions of benefit to the savings bank will be great, if they this short Bill. If there is to be a long "dis are to accept the difference in interest. The cussion, I wonld much rather that the debate security is the same, because the Government can should be adjourned ; but imagining, as I do, protect the savings bank. Then amongst the that the Bill will commend itself to hon. mem .£940,000 debentures held by the trustees of the bers, I think it might be allowed to pass its Government Savings Bank there is no less than second stage. I move that the Bill be now read .£339, 000 which falls due early next year. a second time. Those are the 6 per cent. debentures, some of Mr. POWERS : So far as the Bill passing its which were purchased by the savings bank at second stage is concerned, I do not suppose there £110. There was an amount of £85,000 valued will be any objection; but I think before it goes at a premium of £110. What does the hon. through committee the hon. gentleman will gentleman intend to do with those debentures, require to give the House some information on amounting to £339,000, which are approaching one or two matters that he has not dealt with. maturity? It appears from the first part of the hon. gentle The COLONIAL TREASURER : This Bill has man's speech that one of the objects of the Bill nothing to do with them. · is the issuing of debentures so that they can be The HoN. J. R. DICKSON: Still we are. held for realisation in c~tse the money is wanted dealing with the Government Savings Bank. at any time, and in case it is not convenient for The COLONIAL TREASURER : How could I refer the bank which now holds the money to pay to them? it up. I unrlerstand that these debentures The HoN. J. R. DICKSON: The Government are not to be floated. They are to be issued will have to take them up. and placed in the hands ·of trustees; but The COLONIAL TREASURER: I will explain that the trustees are to have power to send part when we ask for a loan. of the securities to London for the purpose The HoN. J. R. DICKSON: I should like to of using them if occasion requires. Under those know what is the benefit to accrue to the circumstances no interest will accrue until they Government Savings Bank, except in the shape are issued to the public ; they will be treated, of complying with the Act of 1870, by trustees as the hon. gentleman says, in the same way as holding this amount of £500,000 debentures extended deposit receipts. The point I would inRtead of the bank's extended deposit receipt. I have been glad that the hon. gentleman should should like to know who is to benefit by the dif have dealt with is this: There appears to be pro ference in the interest-the Government Savings vision made fora possible contingency, and made Bank or the Treasury? The savings bank is at at a time when we are supposed to be in a good taining large dimensions ; and I share the opinion financial position-when we are paying our way of the Treasurer with regard to endeavouring to and have a surplus. Things have gone on induce capitalists, instead of placing their money satisfactorily for the last two years, and the in the savings bank, to embark it in private enter· occasion for this provision is not apparent to prise. It is rather to be regretted that no less the ordinary public or ordinary members of than £2,200,000 of money derived from a small Parliament. The hon. gentleman appears to wish population of 400,000 people is lying dormant in to take time by the forelock, and in sending the Government Savings Bank when it might be these securities to London he is certainly anti made use of by private enterprise with great cipating a difliculty that nobody but himself benefit to the community. That, however, is is wise enough to see. I intend not to oppose outside the scope of the Bill. The Government the second reading of the Bill, but to get what have taken a step in the right direction by information is required when we are in corn- reducing the rate of interest, and it is a question i564 Supplg. [ASSEMBLY.] Swpplg. whether even a further reduction, considering electrical engineer. That was a new appoint· the low rate of money generally, might not be ment altogether, and he did not think anyone advant'tg-eously considered. would take exception to it, seeing that in this The COLONIAL TREASURER, in reply: colony there were 10,000 miles of telegraph line I do not think the hon. gentleman has read the and 18,000 miles of wire, besides all the wires in la't report of the s>wings bank. As to the connection with telephone exchanges, and several difference in intere•t between the 4~ per cent. short submarine cables to islands and settle and the 3~ per cent., that is a matter of adminis ments along the coast. \Vhen they con tration. The Treasury allows the savings bank sidered the strides that had been made in these the privilege of getting interest upon its dead branches of knowledge in other parts of the money ; even the money in the till in daily world, and also the fact that electricity operation is allowed interest. The hon. member would be introduced as a means of traction also makes a mistake in thinking that it is for trams and for other purposes, it was desirable to pile up a large reserve fund in the necessary that the Government should have in savings bank. We had on the 31st December their service the very best ad vice, so that their £37,650 of profit lying to the ~redit of profit and arrangements should not be interfered with by loss; but there is no use in accumulating a large those of private individuals. Remembering reserve fund in the Treasury to lie dormant. I what was going on in England and America, say that the whole matter is simply one of he did not think they would grudge this vote. administration. It has been carefully admi There were also some promotions and increases, nistered in the past, and I have no doubt both in the salaries and the number of officers. that it will be so administered in the future. The salary of the chief clerk in the accountant's What we have to do is to make depositors abso department was increased from £350 to £400. lutely safe; more than that is not required. We This officer had been twenty years in the ser do not wish to accumulate large profits or raise vice, and had not received an increase for twelve the rate of interest to depositors. Then depositors years. Re was also the head of the money would say, "The bank is making a profit an cl order office, and the total turnover of the de accumulating funde, and insteai of getting 3~ per partment was about £1,500,000 per annum. cent. we ought to get 5 per cent." It is not 'l'hose officers receiving less than £300, who advisable, in the interests of the public, that the received no increases last year, were given £20 savings bank should give a higher rate of this year, and those who received £10 increases interest than the ordinary monetary institutions. last year would receive £10 this year. That was \Ve do give slightly better terms in some respects a basis upon which they had gone all through. than the ordinary banks, becau~e if money is put There were four extra junior clerks and two into an ordinary bank it has to be 18ft there additional cadets provided for ; their services for twelve months certain to get 31 per cent., were rendered necessary by the increase in the but it is put into the savings bank with a work of the department. The storeman and right of withdrawal at very short notice, parcel packer, hitherto provided for out of con and interest is given for whatever time it is tingencies, now appeared on the vote. Then there with this reservation : No interest is they came to thfil vote for officers in charge and paid until the beginning of the month after assistants, in connection with which the Post the deposit is made, or from the end of the month Office Department was introducing, for them, a previous to that in which it is withdrawn. new principle, though it was one which had been However, the Bill has nothing to do with that. introduced with good effect into other branches It simply deals with the securities held by the of the service. Hitherto many of those officials had bank, and it is an attempt to put those securi been paid by a number of sma.ll salaries attached ties in the best possible form, so that they may to the performance of different duties-so much be easily realised should ever occasion require. for the post office, so much for the savings bank, The hon. member for Maryborongh seems to and so on. The total vote for this year was £59,590, think that this is not the proper time to do this, as compared with £52,200 last year, but a note and that is exactly where I disagree with him. explained that the vote for this year included It was just because there was a crisis in 18!)3 £2,205 paid last year by the savings bauk for that I did not propose it then. The time to country branches, and £2,971 paid last year out make these changes is when things are quiescent. of the vote for country post offices. Those votes If I had attempted to do it in 1893 it might have been distributed in a very irregular manner, have induced some persons-ignorant persons- by which a man might get a large or a small to lose confidence in the bank. allowance, and, as the salary was not attached Mr. POWERS : Why not in 1894? to the man, it always led to difficulty in the The COLONIAL TREASURER: Better transference of an officer, because the transfer 1895 than 1804. I think the time is opportune might mean either a gain or a loss in salary. The now when things are quiet, and, as there is not plan adopted now was to pool those votes first, the slightest possibility of a scare or want of and then to divide them in such a way as to give confidence, this is the time to put our house in about £GO of an addition to the ordinary voted order. salary of those officials to make up the total Question put and passed; and the committal of salary paid them for the services they performed. the Bill made an Order of the Day for to-morrow. Of course that meant that some who had large salaries under the old system of allowances would GOLD J!'IELDS ACT AMENDMENT BILL. come down, but proportionately there were others COUNCIL'S MESSAGE. whose salaries would go up. No doubt it would The SPEAKER announced the receipt of a cause some heart-burnine;s at first, as no man message, intimating that the Council had agreed liked to suffer a reduction of salary ; but the to the amendment made by the Assemblv •,<, t.he advantage of the new system to the men was that under it the salary would attach to the Council's amendment in this Bill. officer, and ve would carry it with him wherever SUPPLY. be was sent. Under the old system a man drawing £350 a year in one place was liable to be RESUMPTION o~· CoMMITTEE. transferred to a place at which he would not get POST AND TELEGRAPH OFFICES-SALARlES. more than £250 ; but under the present arrange The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Hon. T. J. ment a man drawing a salary of, say, £300 a Byrnes) moved that £133,525 be granted fnr year, would get that salary wherever he went. salaries, Post aLd Telegraph Department. Hon. 'l'hat plan fitted in with the policy of the members would see provision wa.s rnq,de for an Government in other departments of making, Sttpply. [6 NoTEMBER.] Supply. 1565 so far as possible, the one salary cover all service on the 6th of June, 1890, and had been the work. Under the old system by whi?h treated as Civil servants, had not to pass any a man had a multitude of offices, the salar1es examination. in some instances added up came to an enormous The ATTORNEY-GENERAL understood sum, and in the old days there were some clerks that the hon. member was correct, and that that of petty sessions who were making about 50 per interpretation had been put on the Act by the cent. more than a district court judge, some of Civil Service Board and the department. Those them getting as much as £1,500 a year by holding officers never were, and never had been classi a multitude of officas. It was not possible to fied. deal with the whole service in the way proposed, Mr. POWERS pointed out that they had but at least there ought to be only one salary in been treated as Civil serYauts, and had had to one department. Under the same system the contribute to the superannuation fund. Many vote for line repairers in charge had been of the present stationmasters hail risen from the increased. The vote also showed increases to ranks of line-repairers, etc., and if the interpre stampers and sorters, to sorters aud letter tation put on the Act was wrong, the Attorney carriers, to the working overseer telegraph and General, as the legal adviser of the Crown, ought telephone lines, to the battery-keeper, battery to tell the department so, and if it was correct a men, mailmen, and messengers and office-keepers; short Bill ought to be introduced to deal with and the groom, who was not down for an the matter. increase, got an increa~e last year. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: The point Mr. GROOM understood that some time ago had never been brought under his notice before, it was in contemplation that there should be an but he would consult with the Postmaster-General amalgamation of officers in the department in about it. the interests of economy and also of efficiency, Mr. GLASSEY : When the present Postal by which the same officer would be placed in Act was before the House in 18!)1 he referred to charge of post and telegraph offices in certain the difficulty that stood in the way of letter places. He was not aware whether the proposed carriers and sorters rising in the department, and amalgamation of officers had taken place, but he he was still under the impression that the ex drew the attention of the Attorney-General to amination for tha.t class of persons was easier the fact that the vacancy caused by the death than that for outsiders entering the service. He some time ago of the manager of the telegraph would like to know whether such was the case or officer at Toowoomba had not yet been filled up, and as he understood that the reason f0r it not? was the contemplated change, he would like to The AT'fORNEY-GENERAL replied that know from the hon. gentleman whether that was the percentage to be obt>tined by persons of that the case or not. class was fixed at 38 instead of 50, and they formed a class by themselves. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said it had for some time been contemplated to carry out the Mr. G LASSEY ·: Whatever facilities there change to which the \:ton. member had referred, were for letter-carriers and sorters entering with a view to efficiency and economy, and he the classified branch of the service he could believed the system proposed prevailed in most only say that, so far as his knowledge went, countries. An appointment would be made to there had been extremely few promotions, and fill the vacancy at Toowoomba as soon as the it struck him that there must be some other Estimates were passed. obstacles in the way of their being promoted. He had had some slight connection with the Mr. GROOM wished to know whether tele General Post Office, and some sorters and letter graph officer; at rail way stations, who were on carriers h>td been in the same position for fifteen, duty sometimes all night despatching messages sixteen, and even seventeen years, and had no in regard to ordinary and express trains, and did chance of promotion. They were never asked work for the Railway Department, were paid to go out of that particular branch, and he by the Post Office? The Railway Department knew from his own experience that the depart should bear part of the expense, otherwise the ment reeked with favouritism. If a person receipts of that department would be swelled at showed the least sign of manhood, whatever his the expense of the Post Office. abilities might be, unless he was prepared to do The ATTORNEY-GENERAL replied that the ordinary crawl and sneak, he had not the the whole of their salaries was not paid by the slightest chance of rising in the department. He Post Office. The Post Office made an allowance could mention names but would not do so, a• to the Railway Department for doing telegraph he knew that the mere fact of their names being work at railway stations, and the Railway mentioned would do those per,ons infinite Department accounted to the Post Office for the harm, but he could not allow such a system receipts. The work they did for the Railway to exist without exposure. He did not find Department was paid for by the Commissioner. any fault with the Attorney-General or the Mr. POWERS said the other day they passed Postmaster-General, for whom he was acting. a Bill to get over the difficulty of six or seven He did not believe the present Postmaster persons in another department who were in the General would do anything that was not fair and service on the 6th of June, 1890, but in conse reasonablr, but inforn1ation concerning those quence of an interpretation put on the Civil matters was systematically withheld from the Service Act by the Civil Service Board, had not Postmaster-General, whose time was too much been classified. Among the line repairers, occupied to go into them, even if they were sorters, and letter-carriers in the post office there brought under his notice. If the Attorney were 190 persons who were in the same position. General or the Postmaster-General had time to They were in the service on the Gth of June, but make the neces>ary inquiries, they would hear of owing to that construction being put on the Act things that would surpri•·e them, and would no they had never been classified, though sofue of don bt very quickly provide a remedy for the them were sometimes called npon to do the work evils that would come to light. Until there was of classified officers, and showed their com a complete overhaul by persons with determina petency for the work. The contention of the tion and courage, irrespective of offcialism, that Civil Service Board was, he believed, that they state of things would remain. No sort of justice could not be cla•sified unless they passed the was meted out to the lower grade of officers. ex"mination which had to be passed by persons He huped that now that attention had been entering the service. He maintained that that drawn to the matter, the Postmaster-General WitS wrong, and that persons who were in the would inquire into it personally, and if so, he 1566 Suppl!J. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. had sufficient confidence in that hon. gentleman's year. All recommendations made by the Under spirit of fairness to believe that some of the evils Secretary for promotion were submitted by the he complained of would be remedied. Minister to the Civil Service Board, and although The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the hon. the board, being then a new broom, had made member had done a great injustice to the Postal full inquiries into each case before approving Department and to a large number of employees of the recommendations, in every case the who have been promoted in saying that a man recommendations of the Under Secretary had could not get promotion unless he was a sneak. been approved of. In one case the board had It followed that those who had got promotion refused to endorse two recommendations of the had been sneaks. That was a very wild and department, on the ground that two other extravagant statemPnt to make. It also cast a officers were entitled to priority. He had serious reflection on the Under Secretary. not liked receiving such a reply from the Mr. GLASSEY: I want it to do so. board, and the Under Secretary had inquired The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: It was also into the matter. It was then found that the a very grave reflection on the Postmaster officers mentioned by the board were entitled to General, for whom the hon. member had pro the promotions by seniority, bnt, although they fessed his respect, because if he was aware of had been offered to them, they had declined what was going on he must be a party to it, and to accept the vacant positions, and the original if he was not it might be charged to his want of recommendations of the Under Secretary had industry. The present Postmaster-General was then been approved of by the Ci vi! Service a most industrious Minister, and devoted a large Board. He believed that if the hon. member amount of his time to the details of the depart for Balonne were now Postmaster-General, the ment. If those very gross cases of favouritism same recommendations would be made for pro and the promotion of sneaks were so well known motion as were made by the present Postmaster to the hon. member it must be a serious reflection General. He had never fonnri any attempt to on a number of gentlemen who had held office conceal anything from the Minister, but, on the as head of the department. He trusted the contrary, even the minntest details were sub Committee would not take the remarks of the mitted to him. His only difficulty had been that hon. member seriously; he was only having his the Under Secretary looked upon the post office annual fling at the Postal Department. almost as his own concern, and, if he could save £1 Mr. GLASSEY said it was not likely he would anywhere, it was saved. The difficulty was to make such serious charges unless thete was some get him to agree to extend postal facilities to foundation for them, and he spoke with special outside districts, unless he was absolutely sure knowledge of the subject. The Postmaster that a place was likely to become a "ettled General generally took his information from his district. He was very conservative. It was only chief officials, and as long as he did so he would his duty to say what he trad found the Under never get accurate and detailed information. If Secretary to be when he had been in charge of the the Minister had time to go through the depart departrr:ent. ment himself, and make personal inquiries, he Mr. FISHER asked if the question of what would see that that state of things existed. He letters were to be openecl. was submitted to the made no reflection on the Postmaster-General, Postmaster~General amongst the many details but so long as he listened only to the high which were submitted to him? officials, and did not lend an ear to the men in Mr. PowERS: No. the lower branches of the service, so long would The ATTORNEY- GENERAL : 'What- opening that state of things continue to exist. As to the letters? heads of the department, they were not just, Mr. GLASSEY : Many of mine have been they were considerably overpaid, and they were opened. very poorly worked. Mr. FISHl
mail it would not be justifiable. The mail con they were a cause of delay to the mails. If the tractor would never know what number of horses hon. member for Woothakata had to pack parcels he would have to provide. by horse over black soil country in wet weather, Mr. RA WLINGS said that the traffic could he would find it was not such an easy job as he be regulated by increasing the price ·for carry thought. They must take into consideration ing the parcels, anq the difficulty as to the mail that many of the maiimen had to travel stages of contractors could be settled in the terms of their sixty or seventv miles in a day, and to carry contracts. The reason given for confining the parcels as well as mails would require lOO horses. service to the large centres was not a good one. Mr. RAWLINGS said the parcels post was If the parcels were put up in cases 2 feet 6 mches forth@ benefit of the people generally, and the long by 1 foot wide and 2 feet deep, they would storekeepers did not deserve special consideration. carry very well on horseback. He had seen The department could easily prevent abuse by much more cumbersome loads carried that way having a different schedule of price~ and weights. in the North. If the department found they could not carry on At two minute3 past 7 o'clock, the business there would be some sense in saying Mr. RAWLINGS called attention to the state they would not do it, but they had no ground to of the Committee. stand on until they had tried the experiment. Quorum formed. Mr. BOLES thought it would be impossible Mr. RA WLINGS contended that by allowing to carry parcels by horse mails, and if it was in the horse mails to carry parcels, the whole colony sisted upon greater complaints than ever would could be served. If the number of parcels was. arise over the delay of mails. The delay would likely to be too large, it could be easily regulated be a greater disadvantage than would be compen by increasing the rates of postage. At present sated for by the convenience of being able to get parcels under 11 lb. were carried at 3d. a lb., parcels by hnrse mail. If it was determined to and there was no reason why the rate for parcels carry on the service in connection with the horse to be conveyed by horse mails should not be mails, then it should be a separate service from charged 6d. or even 8d. a lb. At one time the the mail serviee. tariff for the carriage of ordinary goods in his dis The HoN. J. R. DICKSON asked what was trict had been 6d. a lb. The experiment should being done to secure uninterrupted telegraphic. be made. One of the reasons advanced against communication between Brisbane and Cape the extension of the system was that it would inter Moreton? fere with the small storekeepers, but that was a The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that a weak argum<>nt, because the coach mails also contract had been entered into for the work, and interfered with those storekeepers. If they were the most important section wonld be completed going to consider the small storekeepers, they by the end of the year-namely, the submarine might as well wipe out the whole service. He cable between Cleveland and Dunwich, avoiding believed that an agitation had been got up iu Peel Island altogether. That would give a some of the outside districts ,,gainst the servjce, duplicate system as far as the cable was con but he contended that even the most valuable cerned, and the risk of interruption would be goods could be safely carried by packing on reducc,d to a minimum. horsec<. Flat packages could be very well carried on Mr. BROWNE asked whether the Government horseback. It was only a question whether people had taken any steps with regard to the extension would contract for the carriage of the parcels, of the telegraph line from Cairns to Geraldton, and he knew that already applications bad been which had been advocated by the various cham made to the department. So long a• there was bers of commerce and other public bodies in that a reasonable hope that the service would pay, the part of the colony. In wet seasons the whole of department should not refuse to allow packages to the Gulf country and the extreme north were be carried by the horse mails. He hoped the practically cnt off during the greater part of the department would seriously take into considera time frnm telegraphic as well as mail communi tion the advisability of extending the system to cation, and the report of the Postmaster-General the whole of the colony. showed the frequent and long interruptions to The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that the communication along the existing line. It was matter would receive every consideration, but he pointed out in the report that the greatest number was unable to hold out the slightest hope that of faults occurred inK ovember, 1894, and Feb the service would be further extended in the ruary, 1895. :Fifteen of the breaks in February direction indicated by the hon. member. were caused by unusually high floods, which were Mr. KERR said that the hon. member for the cause of a break.down of communication of \Voothakata had made out a good case, but he ninety hourg between Georgetown and Gilbert did not think the hon. member was aware of the River; 120 hours between Junction Creek and disadvantage; under which the mailmen laboured Georgetown ; 152 hours betwren Croydon and in some of the outside districts in regard to the Gilbert River; 197 houl" at Macrossan Bridge; carriage of parcels. Last January he had been 200 hours between Charters Towen and travelling down the Thomson to Stonehenge and Hillgrove; 220 hours between Junction Creek out that way with a mailman who was unable and Tate River ; 270 hours between Donor's to travel with a coach, and he had to pack Hill and Normanton; 384 hours between the parcels, one of which consisted of 30 lb. ltavenswood and Mount McConnell; and 577 of tubacco for a storekeeper at Winclor
Mr. DAWSON wished to know if the hon. was a common thing for bushmen to work for member had any intention, as a member of the six months without drawing their pay, and when Government, in moving in the matter? they got it in a lump sum many of them were The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said he could induced to spend it foolishly, but if by a friend not answer that question. Speaking personally, going in to the nearest town at which there was he had never considered the matter. · a post office Ea ving~ bank, perhaps SO or 100 Mr. BOLES contended that if the postage miles away, they could send down a deposit and were reduc8d by one-half it would more than get an account, they would be encouraging thrift, pay the State for carrying newspapers, and it which he desired as much as the Government. could be very well afforded now that the finances He hoped the Government would give some were in a better position. The tax pressed very attention to the suggestion. hardly upon country papers, some of which had Mr. DAWSON understood the Attorney had to shut up in consequence of subscribers General to indicate that it was just as reasonable falling off. Even if the postage were reduced to to aek that the stamps should be taken off letters ~:l. it would repay the State for the cost of as off newspapers. transit. Mr. PLUNKETT said ever since this tax had The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: It would be far been imposed the mateer had been brought better to have everything free, and then we forward session after session, but nothing had would hav·e no row over it at all. been done. It was a very unpopular tax in the Mr. DAWSON: It was not a question of a country districts, and it would be very wise for row at all, but whether the tax on newspapers the Government to reduce it. The amount the was fair or unfair, and the general opinion was Government received from this miserable tax was that the present tax was certainly unfair, and not very great, and the unpleasantness and ill much in favour of the metropolitan papers as feeling it engendered amongst people who gained against local papers. They were not asking so their knowledge of the outside world through much for the total abolition of the tax as that these papers was very great. He also wished to the Government might see their way to reduce know if there was any chance of the telephone it. He understood that the tax was originally system being extended in the direction mentioned imposed because the Government desired to by the hon. member for N undah? carry out a contract or agreement with the New The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said nothing South \Vales Government that a tax should be would be done until the electrical engineer was levied on newspapers in both colonies. New South appointed on 1st January. He would deal with \V ales had failed to carry out her part of the con the matter. tract, and flooded Queensland with her newspapers The HoN. B. D. MOREHEAD pointed out on which there was no tax imposed. Under the that if they abolished the tax upon newspapers the circumstances it was time the Government woke re~ult might be very prejudicial to local journals, up to the necessity of defending the people of as the metropolitan papers would wipe them out Queensland from the attacks of New South for which he would be very sorry. There was ~· Wales. The hon. member for Balonne was large newspaper here, and if the local papers afraid that the abolition of the tax would give were wiped out that paper would have a com the metropolitan papers a handicap over the mand of the colony he should be sorry to see it local papers, but it had been pointed out that the acq oire. He would not care to destroy that local metropolitan papers were carried in bundles to influence which local journals should have. the different centres, and postage was paid on That was a view of the question that should not them by the pound, while the country news be lost sight of, papers had to pay !;d. on every copy issued. Mr. S:VIITH had been opposed to the postage The only means he knew•of putting the country tax on newspapers, and the feeling existed that papers on a level with the metropolitan papers it_ was a great imposition, especially upon news was to abolish the tax, unless it was proposed to papers published and circulated in the country charge ls. on metropolitan papers and ;id. on districts. So far from the abolition of the tax country papers. causing the metropolitan newspapers to wipe out Mr. DRAKE : When the Bill was going the country papers, the effect would be the through in 1891 he proposed an amendment reverse, as the metropolitan papers were carried which he thought would satisfy both the hon. by parcels post by the pound, and distributed in member for Kennedy and the bon. member for the smaller centres of population, while the Charters Towers-that was, that newspapers country papers had to put a ~d. stamp on each should be received in numbers, and distributed copY: issue~. If the. tax could not be entirely separately, and charged at the rate of 3d. per lb. abohshed, Its reductwn by one-half would give In that way the postage would depend entirely a ~reat deal of satisfaction, on the weight of paper, and justice would be done Mr. ,J ACKSON thought the postage on news to the small papers published in the country. papers should be wiped out altogether. He estimated that six Cotl1'ie1'S would go to the The ArTORNEY-GENERAL: Why not on letters pound, and that would just give ~d. on each ; of too? the Telegraph about eight would go to the pound, Mr. J ACKSON : If anything, the tax fell and in the case of a single-sheet country paper more .heavily upon the purchaser than upon tl1e the postage would come to about ld. on each. The proprietor of the paper. An anomaly in con strongest reason for imposing the tax had been nection with the tax was that the postage was that people recklessly circulated papers through the same on the daily papers as on the Queens the post, and thus increased the weight of the lander, the Week, and other weekly papers which mails to such an extent as to cause a nuisance, weighed five or six times as much. V enddrs too and no better plan could be devised fo1· lighten had the privilege of sending papers by the pdund' ing the mails than tlw one he suggested, as it while private persons desiring to send copies of would have acted as an incentive to newspaper the daily papers to their friends had to pay in proprietors to reduce the size of their papers, postage 50 per cent. of the price of the paper · and not load them up with a lot of displayed and no doubt the daily papers would b~ advertisements which their readers did not want. largely circulated if the po~tage charge upon Mr. HAMILTON quite agreed with the ban. them was more reasonable. He drew atten: member for Enoggera that it might not be advi tion to the advantage it would be to allow sable to ~tllow newspapers to go free, because the accounts in post office savings banks to be great extra weight of the mails consequent on opened by an agent instead of insisting upon that would increase the price of carriage and the depo'sitor opening the account himself. It cause the mails to be delivered more slowly in 1576 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.
outside places. 'What he (Mr. Hamilton) sug heavy handicap in favour of the metropolitan gested was that if a farthing instead of a half journals. It appeared that what was sauce for penny would suffice to pay the expenses of the goose was not sauce for the gander in that carriage, it would be fair to reduce the charge case. The country proprietors could not send byone-h.,lf, and he did not think that by reducing their papers in bundles, as the Courier did, at it in tb.at way the metropolitan pap&rs would so much per lb., although he did not think it be able to compete unduly with the provincial was worth much even at that. He saw no Press. ]'or instancto, when the Brisbane Courier reason why undue preference should be given to got to Charters Towers it would be ancient his the metropolitan journals to enable them to come tory. and as the people wanted local news they into competition with journals published in the would take the loca,l paper. Paper~ like the In"'enor.. . ' Queenslcmder and the TVcek could not be con TheATTOR~EY-GENERAL: They can send their sidered to compete with local papers, and they papers in bundles to Brisbane. would always have a run whether there ·was a The HoN. B. D. MOREHEAD : The hon. tax or not. gentleman must know perfectly well that loc:tl Mr. GROOM said the tax on newsparers was journals had mainly a local circulation, restricted imposed in 1891 UJH!er the Post and Telegraph to the district in which the paper was published. Act upon the distinct as,ertion of the then They could not send their journals to Brisbane, Postmaster-General that this colony was bound where there were plenty of newspapers already; by its position in relation to the other colonies it would be like s.ending coals to Newcastle. He belonging to the Postal Union, which would trusted the Government would take the argu come into operation on the 1st of October, to ments of the hon. member for Toowoomba into charge postage on newspapers. New South their serious consideration. \Vales was a party to that contract, but Sir Henry Parkes, who was Premier at the time, Mr. GLASSEY said it was evident the hon• distinctly informed Parliament that he would member for Balonne was developing rapidly into not be bound by any postal conference or a local protectionist, and no doubt the party of by any action of the Postmaster-General, proteetionists would congratulate themselves and he declined to bring in a PostoJ Bill heart.ily on their new convert. The hon. mem imposing a tax on newspapers. That fact was ber argued that the abolition of the ~d. postage known at the time the Post and Telegraph would give the metropolitan journals a monopoly Bill was before Parliament, and he (Mr. of the country districts, bee 'Use they would be Groom) proposed an amendment to the effect carried free thrcughout the country. He hardly that the postage on newspapers should not come thought that would be the case, because the into operation until New South Wales had country newspapers were bought almost entirely fulfilled her part of the contract. New South for the local news they contained-news which \V ales had not done so, and the result was that conld not receive nearly so much consideration the proprietors of the Sydney lfiail, the Bulletin, and space in the metropolitan Press. He was an and the Town and Country Jom·nal sent theie . ardent advocttte for the abolition of the newspaper papers into this colony hy the hundredweight at stamp, even though it returned £15,000 a year so much per pound, and they were delivered by to the Treasury. 'When the Bill imposing the their agents, to the detriment of the Press of stamp was passing through the House some very Queensland. Rll spoke on behalf of the Pre~s of strong speeches were deli• ered against it. He the colony, who felt the tax a grievous burdan. himself said on that occasion that one of the He was a newspaper proprietor, and had to pay chief reasons for its imposition was to cripple .£225 a year for newspaper wrappers to sen'l his the Wm·ker, which circulated very largely in the paper to his subscribefs. How m~ny of the pro interior. He wa~' glad to say tliat although vincial journals could afford to do that? Many that journal had a wide circulation then, it had newspaper proprietors had had to go to the money a much wider circulation now notwithstand lenrler, and were working simply for him entirely ing the tax. Those who had suffered most through that tax, as he kne1v from his own from the imposition of the stamp were personal knowledge, and as the records of the country readers, especially those in remote Supreme Court would show. The metropolitan districts. 'While representing Bundanba he journals could be bound np the same ·as the made a canvass in one portion of the elec Sydney journals were, and sent away in parcels torate and obtained seventy subscribers to an at ld. per lb., and then delivered by local agents Ipswich paper which was issued twice a week. to the subscribers to the provincial Press, which "When the postage was imposed the subscriptions was not fair. The Postmaster-General, replying fell off rapidly. The people were unable or dis to some remarks he made at the time the Act inclined to pay the extra tax. It must be was passed, said if he wanted to introduce obvious that 4s. or 6s. a year was a considerable protection for newspaper proprietors that tax to impose on country readers. He hoped the was a matter of policy, but it was not Government would favourably consider its aboli a matter to be taken into consideration by tion. If they did not, and it should happen that the Postal Department, especially when revenue llon. members on that side got on to the Treasury was required. Rc·venue was not required benches, it would be oue of the questions that now, as their revenue was on the upward would demand their e'"rly attention next session. grade, and if the Government could not see 1'he PRE;I!IER: Good Lord deliver us! their way to abolish the tax altogether, which Mr. GLASSEY would say, "Good Lord only produced £12,000 per annum, they might deliver us from any new lease of power to the reduce the charge by one-half. New South present Government !" Considering the Press Wales had not imposed the tax, 11,11d he believed as an educational agency, the prohibition of free iG never would. It was all very well to say that circulation had been a great draw back to the it existed in Victoria, aud to some extent in people. ,Indeed, viewing the question from any South Australia, but they were comparatively old standpoint, it was not too much to ask the countries, while Queensland was only thirty-five Government to favoumbly consider the abolition years of age, and the whole of the Press was in of the stamp. Some hon. members did not care a struggling condition. He hoped the question to S]Jeak on the· subject because they were would be seriously considered by the Government. interested parties, but they had felt the pressure The HoN. B. D. MOREHEAD said the hon. very seriomly during the last two yearil. Con member for Toowoomba had proved beyond all sidering the prosperous condition of the colony, doubt that as matters stood at present, as far as the Tre11surer might take steps to remit the tax railway communication extended, there was a at an early date. [6 NoVEMBER.] Supply. 1577.
The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN· The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: The arrange STRUCTION said that the cost 0f carrying ments were made with the Railway Department, newspapers had to be borne by someone. It the coaches and the newspaper proprietors. was no more a tax than it would be if he wanted The arrang~ments were made outside the Act. to go to Sandgate, and not being a member of Would not the Railway Commissioner he just as Parliament, had to pay ls. 2d. to go by the much at liberty to contract for the delivery of train. Even if the postage were removed some mail matter as any private individual? '.rhe one would have to pay, and surely those who hon. member for Mackay said very truly t.hat read the newspapers were those who had more that was simply a matter of payment for serviCes right to pay than the general community. The rendered. hon. member said that a great many people had Mr. M oRGAN : Why don't you make the people to suffer hardship in having to pay postage. who use the railway pay for its entire cost? That might be so ; but why should they inflict The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: In many greater hardship upon the man who did not parts of Australia there was a system of barter take a newspaper? Two suggestions had been in vogue. Say that near the town of Warwick a made by hon. members. One was that the person agreed to take the Warwick Argus, and charge should be abolished on the score of to give in exchange a sack of potatoes. \Y as it injustice. It seemed eminently just that the not as fair that the potatoes should be carried man who received the se.rvice should pay free on the railways as that the Warwick A1·g·us for it. The other suggestion was that the should be carried free to the subscriber? charge should be reduced. Apparently hon. Mr. HAMILTON quite agreed that those members who held that view admitted that it who used papers should pay for them, but the was just that a charge should be made, or why present charge was a great injustice to country were they contented with asking for a lower newspapers. The A ustrala.sian was carried all rate? No doubt, if the Postmaster-General over the colony for !;d., although it weighed 8 oz. could deliver papers for a less charge than the The Week, weighing 8 oz. was carried for ~d., public now paid for the convenience, he would and yet a country paper t1 at weighed one-tenth very gladly reduce the charge. In most parts of of the Week or Aust1·alasian was also charged. Australia, in the United Kingdom, in the United !;d. There ought to be a minimum charge of :l;d. States, and in most civilised countries a similar for 2 oz., and a sliding scale. charge was made for the carriage of newspapers, so that it was evidently recognised in must Mr. GROOM said he could speak on that countries as a just charge. matter from personal experience. Take the case of a settlement of fifteen or twenty people. The The HoN. B. D. MORE HEAD said that the papers came by arrangement to one of the num hon. gentleman had forgotten one thing, that ber, and the rest sent for their papers. Those was that people got papers free now when they people only paid ld. per lb. for the parcel of were sent along the rail ways in bundles, and papers, but if each of those fifteen or twenty distributed by agents. He would ask the hon. papers were delivered through the country post gentleman who paid for the railway service? office they would each have to bear a id. stamp. Was it not the general taxpayers? When the newspapers got to the end of the railway line, The PREMIER : Qnite right. and had to go further out by coach, the people Mr. GROOM: The hon. gentleman would not who received the papers had to pay postage on say so if he had to pay the tax, which amounted them. to 6s. 6d. per year-a very considerable charge Mr. GLASSEY: No. upon people with small means. It would astonish the hon. gentleman if he saw the letters he (Mr. The HoN. B. D. MOREHEAD: Well, when Groom) received from people who said that they the coach reached its terminus and the papers really were not able to P.ay the tax. T~e great had to be distributed, the privilege ceased. The evil of the tax was that 1t fell most heav1ly upon men who had coach or railway communication those least able to bearit. It fell upon thousands got their newspapers free, but the man further of farmers settled upon their selections who were out, who had to endure a great many more not within reach of postal delivery. If the tax hardships, had to pay for his paper. Was that was going to be a universal one, such as was in reasonable or just, seeing that both were equally force in Great Britain at one time, it would be a taxed? The Secretary for Public Instruction different thing altogether, and he would prefer had really given the strongest argument in that to the present system, which was inequitable favour of the abolition of the tax. Those who and unjust, had the greatest conveniences were those who The PREMIER : It is one f<:Jr the farmers, and escaped the charge. two for the newspapers. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that the Mr. GROOM quite admitted that he laid him speech of the hon. member for Balonne supported self open to that charge, and he spoke on the the argument of the Secretary for Public Instruc subject with great reluctance, but he spoke on tion. The hon. member said it was unjust that behalf of a great number of newspaper pro the newspapers should be carried free up fo the prietors upon whom the tax fell in its severest point of distribution, while people whose> papers form. Before every issue of his paper he had to were carried in another way had to pay postage give a cheque for £110s. for newspaper wrappers, upon them. The hon. member had made a great but whether he got that back again was another mistake. Those papers which were carried free matter altogether. If the money was repaid by were not carried as postal matter, or by the post the farmer he considered that he was paying for office at all. The hon. member had attempted the delivery of his paper, while the person in the to make a great point about the distinction town had his delivered for nothing. between railways and coaches, but he had had to The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION : He abandon it. The position of the rail ways il.nd would save carriage on his goods in the s!l.me coaches was exactly that of a private individual way. who contracted to distribute the Courier about Mr. GROOM: That was going to extremes. Brisbane. The imposition was such a burden that pro Mr. DRAKE : The carriage of papers in bundles prietors, in order to compensate themselves for is provided for in the Act. the postage, had been obliged to reduce their The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: It was not telegraphic messages to one-third of what they postal matter in the ordinary acceptation of the used to be. Some people objected to pay the term. postage on principle, and the tax had abridged Mr. DRAKE: The Act says it is. the circulation of every newspaper in the colony i578 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Suppiy. more or less. \Vhether newspapers were sent that people who enjoyed services should pay for away by rail, coach, or horse, they were to all them,. his argument would lead him into dan intents and purposes mail matter. · g-erous deiJths. He would have to levy such Mr. WILKINSON endorsed what the last rates upon letters as would guard the general speaker had said about the effect of the tax. public against loss, and those who used the rail With regard to the postage on parcels of news ways would have to pay such fr~ights as.would papers; hi~ experience was that the revenue went protect the general public agamst ha vmg to to the post office. The papers were made up in contribute to the loss on those lines. If the bundles, and accompanying each bundle was a argument of the hon. gentleman was li'Ood in one docket with stamps attached. Those stamps case it would be good in another, but it was not were obliterated at the post office. By some a good argument, and the hon. member knew it. understanding between the railway authorities Mr. AGNEW said there was a matter he and the postal authorities bundles sent to a rail would bring forward, which was referred to last way station mio:ht have railway stamps put on. year, and that was the complaint from Sandgate The ATTO&"fEY-GENERAL: The railways get in reference to fines for deficient postage. A the revenue, not the post office. return he had called for showed that one-third of Mr. WILKINSON said the Railway Depart the letters carried paid a fine of 2d., and he ment received £40,000 a year from the Postal thought the time had arrived when the Govern Department for carrying mails. Was the ment should extend the penny radius to eleven carriage of newspapers not included ? miles, which would include all the suburban The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: If it is carried in settlement about Brisbane. It had been said bulk it is not mail matter. that the cost of th1s reduction would amount to Mr. \VILKINSON wished now to refer to £600 per annum, and he supposed he must accept another matter-the carriage of our exports by the figures of the hon. gentleman. The hen. coastal steamers to be shipperr by ocean-going gentleman himself had lived at Sandgate, and, steamers. He did not think sufficient attention in common with every other person, must have had been given to that matter during the debate. received letters upon which he had had to pay a Very shortly Queensland would be one of the fine, which was a very annoying thing. largest wool exporting colonies in the group, and The ATTORNEY·GENEHAL said the ex it would be better for our ports, and for our tension of the ld. rate to Sandgate would industries as well, if our exports could be shipped involve a loss of £600 a year, and as the popula direct from our own ports. That would stimulate tion increased the loss would increase. Probably the mining industry also, because vessels taking he had paid the tine, but he always enjoyed full cargoes from this colony would have to take himself so much at Sandgate that he did not their coal from us as well. mind it. Mr. HAWLINGS said that in 1890, before the Mr. OGDEN asked what was the extent of the tax on newspapers was in1posed, something like 1d. postage round Brisbane? 7,686,312 newspaper. were carried by the depart The ATTORNEY·GENERAL: A five-mile radius. ment, and the number carried last year Mr. OGDEN asked if it would not be fair to amounted to 5,947,040. If the postage on those extend it to the whole colony? He did not see papers were abolished the loss would be £12,789. why Townsville should not receive the same con There would also be a small increase in the cessions as Brisbane, when the whole colony had expense of carriage on account of the greater to pay for it. .,\iter much trouble he had been number of papers that would be sent through the able to get the 1d. post extended to Ross post, but he did not think the total loss would River Meat \Vorks, where there were 300 men ab amount to £20,000 a year. That might seem work, but two miles from the town and across a very large sum, but the people would benefit ; the Ross River the charge was 2d., and on the and, .after all, the post office had a very large line there were selectors who had to pay 3d. on Jeficrency year by year. Before they imposed their letters for being selectors. In Brisbane that postage, the deficiency was £111,000. In they had a five-mile radius, and something 1890 it was £103,000; in 1891, £104,000; in 1892, should be done to extend the radius in other £104,000; in 189::1, £86,000; and in 1894, £80,000; parts of the colony. The radius in other places so that between 1890 and 1892 the newsuaper tax was small enough now and the deliveries and did not decrea~e the deficiency. The State could con veniencies grew less the further one went very well afford to go in for this luxury, as it North. would benefit everybody. Mr. SMYTH pointed out, as he did last Mr. MORGAN rose to reply to a st.:ttement .-ession, that the charge of 1d. made upon letters made by the Attorney-General that newspapers posted on the trains or at the railway stations sent bulk by train were not mail matter. If the was a hardship, for, while persons living con hon. gentleman would look at the Post and venient to a post office could get their letters Telegraph Act he would see that the rates carried for 2d., those who lived close to a railway chargeable by the post office for this service were station, or to where trains stopped, had to pay defined in the schedule. He had despatched 3d. on letters posted on the trains. That was them and paid for them, and it was no use the the case even where there was no post office, and hon. gentleman denying what he said. what it meant was that beyond the five-mile The A~·TORNEY-GENERAL : They are mail radius persons posting their letters on the trains matter when they go through the post office. had to pay 3d. postage on them, though there Mr. MORGAN: Of course they went through would be very little trc,uble in sorting the loose the post office. If by any arrangement between letters posted on the travelling van, and the the Railway Department and the post office- guard would have plenty of time to do the work. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: There is none. Mr. OGDEN sympathised with the hon. Mr. MORGAN: The hon. gentleman mane me101ber, bnt what he wanted would not be done. another statement that was not altogether correct. Only that week he had asked for the same con He did not know whethfr the hon. gentleman cession. One anomaly in connection with the wanted to charge this against that vote, but business was that if a settler, posting his letter these parcels were C'hargeable at fixed rates, and on a train, gave it to the guard, he would have if, in pursuance of the scale laid down in the to pay 3d. on it, and if he gave it to the engine fourth schedule, the payments were made direct driver he would have to pay only 2d. He had to the post office, they were mail matter. 'l'he pointed out to the Under Secretary that there Secretary for Public Imtruction had contended were men who had to pay as much as 6s. a year that this was not a charge, hut a payment for in extra postage though it took them all their services rendered; but if he contended generally time to live. Supply. [6 N OVEMB:im.] Supply. 1579
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that late 11 o'clock m the forenoon, and finishing fee charges were imposed all over the civilised their business at a reasonable hour, and he be world, and in Queensland the rates were the same lieved that if the Government proposed that as in New Zealand, and about half what they they would be supported by the Committee. were in the other colonies. The obvious reason But, if that was not done, the officers who were for the late fee was to induce people to bring in on duty for such long hours could be relieved their mail matter to the post office in sufficient at a little extra cost. He would like to get a time to prevent a rush at the last moment. The little information in reference to the ninety-two late fee charge had been reduced from 3d. to 1:1. sorters and letter-carriers provided for in that If people were given half an hour further facility vote, whose salaries ranged from £50 to £140. A for posting their letters they ought to be pre few years ago the lowest salary paid to that pared to pay for it. particular class of officer was £90, but now the Mr. FISHER said that his colleague had department was economising in accordance with brought the Hame matter up last session, and had the wishes or demands of the Government, and made out a good case. Very little notice of it had reduced the minimum salary to £50. He had been taken then, and it appeared that very would like to know how many of those officers little notice of it was to be taken now. The only were drawin;r £50, £100, £120, and £140 respec argument used in favour of that tax upon country tively? people was that the privilege had been abused in The ATTORNEY-GENERAL replied that the city, and that office boys carried their mails it would take some time to get that information, to the trains instead of to the post office. The as a long list would have to be gone through, but logical argument, according to the Secretary for he might mention that several of those officers Public Instruction, was that all the rest of the had received increases this year. country had to suffer for the folly of certain Mr. OG DEN said the Attorney-General had people in Brisbane. There was no argument to stated that the post-office radius round Brisbane justify the charge. was five miles, but on referring to the regulations Mr. GRil\IES, referring to the extemion of he found that it was eight miles. the radius for the penny post, would like to know The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Yes, it is eight why people living in the towm should have the miles. privilege of a five-mile radius extended to them Mr. OGDEN: There was some reason then when it was denied to the country people? If why .the radius in other districts should be people in the country districts had to send a increased. The country was paying for a tram letter from one station to another, though they mail service, an omnibus service, and various might only be a mile apart, they had to pay 2d. other services for Brisbane and its surrounding postage, and why should people in towns have districts, which were not more thickly populated the right to send a letter five miles for 1d. The than many towns in the North. He would like postal authorities might consider whether they to know whether similar privileges would be could not extend the privilege of a five-mile extended to Townsville and other places? radius in country districts. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL replied that Mr. HAMILTON said that several times when the business justified an extension of the during the evening the action of the department radius in other places they would receive the had been justified by the precedents established favourable consideration of the department. in the other colonies, but in Victoria there was Mr. BROWNE: If people resident in and no extm fee charged for a letter posted on a around Brisbane were allowed to post letters on train. He had frequently posted letters at the trams without any extra charge, why should not Spencer-street station without being charged an residents of the country be allowed to post their extra fee unless he happened to be five or ten letters in trains on the same condition? There minutes late, and then he had to pay a late fee were lengthsmen along the railway lines who had the· same as he would have to pay at the post to post their letters in that way, and they had to office. pay extra postage. Mr. KERR said he had seen it stated in a The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: No; railway em newspaper that the tele~jraph operator on duty ployees have not. in Parliament House had often to work fourteen Mr. BROWNE: There were selectors and hours a day, and he would like to know whether others along the railways who had to pay the that was correct? extra fee for posting letters in a train ; and yet a The ATTOitNEY-GENERAL believed that resident of Brisbane, who had only to go a very that officer had to work long hours, but that was ·short disLance to a post office, could post a letter entirely due to hou. members, who kept him on on a t~am without any extra charge. duty. The SECRETARY FOR LANDS said people Mr. GLASsEY: Why not send relief at a certain had to buy a tram ticket before they could post hour? a letter on the cars. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Ail the Mr. GRIMES said that was not the case. officials about the House, the female waiters, and He had himself posted letters that week in the Ministers were in exactly the same position, and tram-cars without having been asked for any fare. if hon. members wished to have morcy on the Mr. HAMIL'.rON said it was only when the officials they would endeavour to expedite tram was on its journey that a ticket had to be business. taken. When at the terminus no ticket was Mr. KERR thought the department should required before 20sting a letter. take the position of the telegraph operator into Mr. McMASTER said it was one of the consideration. He had to be on duty at 9 o'clock regulations that persons posting letters in a tram in the morning, and if he stayed there till 11 at car had to pay ld. whether they were travelling night he had to be at his post again the next by• it or not, or whether the tram was in motion morning. It was only when he was kept after or not. At the same time it was evident, from 11 o'clock that he was allowed half a day off. The what the hon. member for Oxley had said, that the department should have two operators, as they regulation was not strictly observed. had in New South Wales, where they were also Mr. BRO.WNE : Even assuming that a tram paid so much extra if detained after 11 o'clock. ticket had to be taken before a letter could be Mr. GLASSEY said it was not a good argu posted, the money went to the company, not to ment to say that certain officers connected with the State, which had been at all the expense of the House had to stay late in consequence of the providing the bags and paying the messengers action of hon. members. That could be remedied who received the letters at the General Post by commencing their sittiags at,_ say, 10 or Office. 1580 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.
Mr. HARDACRE said the Attorney-General letters should be altered, and that all letters spoke about pereons being exempted from paying should be handed to the guard, who was the extra fees or posting letters in rail way trains proper officer. The fireman and driver had where there was no post office. When did that their duties to perform, and it was not nice for regulation come into force? It wa" evidently them to receive letters, besides which there was not widely known, because it was a frequent some danger of persons being injured in ap complaint along the railway lines that an extra proaching, the engine of the mail train in the fee had to be paid. dark. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL was informed Original question put and passed. that provision had been made to enable employees CONVEYANCE OF li!AILS. on rail ways and all other person on the line The ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved that where there was no local post office, to post; their £115,000 be granted for the conveyance of mails. letters on the train without paying any extra fee. The vote was much smaller than last year. The Mr. FISHER : To whom do they give the item of £19,800 for the Torre" Straits mail letters? service had been transferred to the department The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: To the of the Colonial Treasurer. There was a slight driver or fireman, to be delivered at the nearest reduction in the vote for the conveyance of mails post office. vid Adelaide and San Francisco, as it had been Mr. FISHER: The regulation was a most found last year that £12,500 was more than absurd one. The proper person to receive them sufficient. There was an increase of £100 in the was the guard, not the men who were responsible gratmties to masters of vessels for conveying for the working and the safety of the train. If an mails. Those were vessels that were not within accident happened ·while they were looking after the contract. The allowance to the Railway the letters, who would be responsible? Department remained the same. l\!Ir. GLASSEY said he had a series of reduc l\!Ir. KERR said that on the 8th August he had tions to move. He proposed that the salary of asked the Premier, for the Postmaster-General, the Under;Secretary, £800, be reduced by £200; some questions with reference to the tenders for tbe superintendent of mails, £550, by £100 ; the the current term for the conveyance of mails chief manager and inspector of electric tele between Isisford and Ilfracombe. He had taken graphs, £530, by £50; the superintendent of the that action at the request of one of the tenderers, money order office, £550, by £50; the correspon from whom he had received a letter before he dence clerk, £-!00, by £50 ; the postal inspector, left Tambo. The writer complained that although £400, by £50 ; one clerk at £400, by £100. he had held the contract for three years, There were three clerks drawing £1,100. He and although his tender was £20 10s. lower might state that the clerk in question, who was than the tender of Cobb and Co., the latter down for an increase of £50, was one of the tender had been accepted. He said that favoured few, and that the proposed increase had he been a stranger there might have had given very great dissatisfaction throughout been nothing unreasonable about it, but under the department in and around Brisbane in con the circumstances the tendering was a farce. sequence of the favouritism that had been In answer to his questions he got the reply that shown. Other officers who had not received any a return would be furnished if the ,J-Iouse desired advance, and who believed they had equally it. He had asked also about the tenders received as good claims, felt themselves slighted. He for the carriage of the mails from Longreach to thought he was overpaid before, and he there Muttaburra, and his reason for doing so was that fore moved a reduc.tion of £100 in his case, and he had had an interview with Mr. Bartholomew, £50 in each of the other two. One of the two the late manager for Cobb and Co., who com was the brother-in-law of the superintendent plained that, although his tender was the lowest, of mails. He would give the Committee a little he did not get the contract. This gentleman insight into that man's. work. At one time he made a charge against the Postmaster-General was supposed to be receiver of mails, and to be of favouritism towards Cobb and Co., because present when all mails arrived, and to see that the hon. gentleman was an executor for people they were attended to; bnt he was seldom there who were interested in the company, but when the mails were received, although he he (Mr. Kerr) was able to remove that generally drew any fees that were paid for the impression, because the Postmaster- General reception of mails. He generally went to the assured him that in any matters in which Cobb office about 9 o'clock, and as soon as the letter and Co. were concerned he handed them over to carriers disappe:tred he got his pipe and paper· the Premier to deal with. He had also received and went to th8 back premises, where he a letter from a Mr. J\feares in referenc.e to the remained for some considerable time. He Ilfracombe to Isisford mail. That gentleman came back and initialled some papers, and it was tendered for the sum of £90, and his sureties then about 12 o'clock, and he again charged his were Mr. Stephen Fairbairn, of Beaconsfield pipe and went home for his dinner, perhaps Station, and Mr. McWhannell, of Rodney,Downs. coming back half an hour before the letter Cobb and Co.'s tender was for £280, and yet carriers returned. He only stayed a couple of they received the contract. He did not think hours in the afternoon, disappeari11g about such sureties as he had mentioned would 5 o'clock. As a rule he did not work more than stand behind a man who was not in everv four hours a day, and for that he received £350. way fit to take up the contract. There was If ever there w:ts a department that wanted a great deal of bitterness among the mail con close examination, particularly in reference to tractors· on account of the way in which their the work performed by some of the officers, it tenders had been received, and they had to come was the Postal Department. Coming to page to the conclusion that it was no use tendering 89, one of the officers in charge received £430; against Cobb and Co., who always received the he proposed to reduce his salary by £50. One contracts. In the case of the mail contract at £420 and three at £400 he proposed to re between Tambo and Alpha there was only a duce by £50 each. In the cose of the officers difference of £5 between the competing teDderers, receiving £370, £360, and £350, he proposed re but the lowest received the contract, and if that ductions of £40 in each. In all, he moved a was the practice in one instance it should be reduction of the vote by £1,160. adhered to in all cases. It was not fair that Question-That £132,365 only be granted Cobb and Co. should be supported at the expense put and negatived; of the country. Mr. HARD ACRE suggested that the regu The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: All that lation relative to drivers and firemen receiving actuated the Postal Department was to secure Supply. [6 :NoVEMBER.] Supply. 1581 efficiency in the public service at as economical a service for the least •um required, otherwise they rate as possible. The fact was that on Cobb and would expose themselves to a charg·e of favour Co.'s bulk tender there was a saving of £844 itism. One man might be prepared to do one throughout the whole colony. That was the particular line at a low rate, but they had to reason why the tenders were accepted in that look to the colony as a whole. way. Mr. BROWNE : He was not saying that plan Mr. KERR did not consider that was a fair was not the best, but it should be made publicly way of accepting tenders. The other tenderers known. A lot of men were able to take small were not in a position to tender for the whole of contracts, and they went tu a lot of trouble in the services, like Cobb and Co. were, ar.d it was getting sureties and putting in their tenders, so a farce calling for tenders if they' were not to be that it ought to be known that the tenders were treated on their merits. He would like to know to be accepted in bulk, and the man who the amount of the difference between Cobb and tendered for the greatest number at the lowest Co.'s tender and the other tenders for the carr!age price would be successful. of the mails from Isisford to Ilfracombe, and Mr. KERR said he found that there was a from Longreach to Muttaburra? difference of £156 10,. on a contract for a service The A'I'TORNEY-GENERAL said he could of seventy miles in favour of Cobb and Co., and not supply the items. The tender of Cobb and against a local man. The explanation that had Co. all over the colony amounted to £12,898. bfen given would open the ej'es of the people as The Postal Department divided it to their own to the "ay in which mail contracts were let. satisfaction; but the contract was for a lump Mr. HARDACR:B~ could confirm what had sum for so many services. been said by the hon. member for Barcoo. In Mr. KERR : What was Bartholo'mew's tender? tra>elling from Miles to Taroorn, eight or nine The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: It was £144. months ago, a contractor bitterly complained to He had no information as to the particular him of the same thing in regard to Cobb and Co., lines. and asked him to mention the matter. Mr. KERR : "What is Cobb and Co.'s tender Question put and passed. from Ilfracombe to Isisford ? J\JISCELLANEOT:S SERVICES. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: The amount The ATTORNl~Y-GENBRAL moved that was £246 10s. There were two routes from £45,400 be granted for miscellaneous purposes. Longreach to Muttaburra-one via Bimbah and Mr. KERR asked if anything had been done the other via Strathdarr. For the former, one in regard to the Barcaldine post office and the man received £89, and for the latter another man manager's residence. received £150. Neither of them was Cobb The ATTORNEY- GENERAL said the and Co. matter was being attended to, and would come Mr. KERR said the answer showed that more up on the Loan Estimates. than £150 had been given to Cobb and Co. to Question put and passed. carry out the contract between Ilfracombe and · METEOROLOGICAL BRANCH. Isisford ; and he thought tl.e letting of contracts The ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved that in a lump was not a good plan. He hoped that £1,310 be granted for the meteorological branch. in future the department would give everyone in The a88istant received an increase of £20, the the colony a chance, and not give the whole lot others having received increases of £20 last year. to a company that had a monopoly. It was not There was a reductirm of £50 in contingencies. fair to other tenderers, and he hoped it would be Mr. HAMILTON thought the salary of the rectified before tenders were called again. Government Meteorologist might have been in Mr. BROWNE had listened with astonish creased, as it was £250 below that of the Govern ment to the statement made by the Attorney ment Astronomer in New South \Vales. An General, and he thought the practi~e of the incalcuJable amount of money was saved in con department ought to be made known. A good sequence of his warnings to shipping and others, deal of money was spent in calling for tenders and the farming representatives had admitted for mail services in all parts of the colony, and that his salary had been saved ten times over. now they were told that when they were in the Mr. SMYTH asked if any of the other colonies department bulked the whole lot, and that Cobb contributed anything to Mr. Wragge? and Co. ·-- The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: No. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: That is absurd. I Mr. SMYTH : They ought to do so, because never said anything of the kind. they depended more upon him than upon their Mr. BROWNE : Suppose tenders were called own men. The other colonies should be asked to-day for the conveyance of mails to some place to recognise his service,, which were availed of in the North, also for mails on the New South even in New Zealand. Wales border, and for mails all through Queens The HoN. B. D. MOREHEAD thought Mr. land. The local men tendered, thinking that the \Vragge one of the most eminent public servants tenders in their own districts would be taken on they had, and he shou!cl have been "pleased to their merits, but now it appeared that they were have seen his ;;alary increased. His services takeh on the bulk. A man on the New i::louth were invaluable to the whole of Australia, and Wales border tendered £300 below the other it would have heen·a fitting tribute to him if the tenderers there; he also tendered for a contract other colonies had placed something upon their in the Gulf country £200 above the local men ; estimates as an addition to his salary. He said yet he got the contract because when it came to that because Mr. \Vragge had done more towards the bulk he was £100 less than the other contrac the federation of the colonies, so far as the tors all over the colony. If that was the system weather was concerned, than any other man they it should be made known that it was no use small had here or were likely to have. The colony contractors putting in tenders, because, as long was to he congratulated upon having such an as big men were prepared to go below on tr,e a-:lmirable man as Mr. Wragge in its service. bulk, they had no chance. He had received Mr. SMITH rose to empha,ise what had been complaints from men who had sent in tenders said by previous speakers "ith regard to Mr. below the tenders that had been accepted. Wragge. He would not go begging to the other The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the post colonies in the matter, but they should on their office authorities contrasted the tenders for the own hook recognise :Mr. \Vragge's 'ervices by a lines separately with those given by persons for a higher remuneration. number of lines, and that had been the practice The HoN. B. D. MOREHEAD would be no for years. They were bound to give the contract party to asking any of the other colonies to subsi to the person who would carry out the whole dise Mr. '\Vragge, but he would say that the other 1582 Suppl!J. [ASSEMBLY.] AdJournment. colonies made use of him without a proper Mr. KERR said that some time ago he asked recognition of the man's great services to the the Treasurer the date of the arrival and depar Australian colonies. ture of Government auditor Drew on his ]a;t Mr. BROWNE said no one would depreciate official visit to Blackall, and whether he was Mr. Wragge's ability, but it was a little too engaged wholly on Government business while much to ask that the other colonies should pay there. The Treasurer replied that the date of anything towards his •alary because they took his arrival was the 31st December, 1894, and the ad vantage of his services, wheu they remembered date of his departure the 1st February, 1895. that for years Queensland had taken advantage The answer to the second question was: No, but of the services of eminent men in the other that from the lst to the 7th January he was colonies, such as Mr. Hayter and Mr. Coghlan, unwell and that a medical certificate was pro. who had been quoted for many years in that duced in proof thereof, rtlso that from the 16th House, without rushing forward to vote them to the 18th January he was absent from ill·health. any money. Anyone who knew anything about public books Mr. RA WLINGS said that vote of £1,310 for would know that the auditor spent a great deal that department did not seem much, but it did too much time at Blackall, and he would like to not represent anything like what was spent by know what the medical certificate stated that the department. The cost of the telegrams, the officer was suffering from, because the reason cost of the New Caledonia cable, and the cost of given in Blackall was that he was unable to travel the stationery employed in the work of the owing to wet weather, which he knew was untrue, department should be added to the vote, and it as he (Mr. Kerr) had travelled from Tambo to would then be seen that the department did not Blackall in his own buggy at that time. cost less than £3,000. The COLONIAL TREASURER replied that Mr. FISHER: £5,000 probably. he really could not tell. With reference to the hon. The SEcRETARY E'OR RAILWAYS: Cheap at the member travelling in his own buggy, he might money. say that the Government auditor had no buggy. Mr. RAWLINGS : Let them come down to Mr. KERR would like to know what was bare facts, and what could they show for it? stated in the certificate, because he was in a The work done might be of some scientific value position to state that Mr. Drew was suffering in the future; but he questioned very much that from drink, and that the police magistrate had it meant any saving to the colony at present. to engage a man and send the auditor away in What master would stop his ship going to sea his own buggy. If a Government officer got because Mr. Wragge said there was a storm into such a statP that he had to be taken out of coming on, or what employer would suffer that the place it was time to inquire what he was sort of thing ? suffering from. Mr. HA1IILTON : As a matter of fact they do. The COLONIAL TRgASURER said there Mr. RA WLINGS : ·what nonsense the hon. were some things which were worse than whisky, member talked. ·without the warnings of that and one of those was self -conceit. department the mastero of ships would be warned Mr. KERR said the facts were known to the by their own knowledge of the weather, and people of Blackall at whose request he had their ability to forecast it. Hon. members l>rought the matter hefore the House, and any opposite might say what they liked, but if they one who knew anything about public accounts were asked to give the money value -- must come to the conclusion that that officer was The Hon. B. D. MOREHEAD : You can't not in a fit state when he took such a time to calculate it audit the books at Blackall. Mr. RA WLINGS : That was just where the Mr. RAWLINGS thought that the report of trouble came in. They could not crtlculate the the Auditor-General might contain more infor value of those services any more than they could mation than it did-for instance, particulars of fly ; and if that man was not in existence, loans to local bodies. That information was not masters of vessels, by their own ability, would to be found in any part of the public accounts, be able to say when they might expect a storm. and a3 hon. members had to consider the matter He rose particularly to point out that the vote every year, it would be a great convenience if the did not represent what the department cost ; and Auditor-General showed in his report how local though he did not depreciate the services of Mr. authorities stood with regard to borrowed money. Wragge, who was no doubt an able man, there The COLONIAL TREASURER : The was no occasion for hon .. members opposite to go returns the hon. member asked for were pro nto ecstasies over him ; and if they. weighed vided for by Act of Parliament, and were things up, they would find they were mistaken. published every ;ix months in the Gazette. What Mr. HAMILTON said the hon. member for more did the hon. member want? Why should Toowoomba had told him that the farmers they be ref.Jeated in the Auditor-General's report? reckoned that the warnings that Mr. \Vragge Mr. RA \VLINGS al80 drew attention to the had given them had saved them ten times the discrepancy with regard to the refreshment amount of the salary paid him; and the captains room accounts. According to the Auditor of the "Aramac" and other coasting vessels, whose General's report £750 was voted and £750 was opinions would have as much weight with the spent, but accoding to the statement of men1- Committee as that of the hon. member who had bers of the Refreshment Room Committee the just spoken, had informed him that the infor· whole of the vote had not been expended? mation given them by Mr. Wragge had been of The COLONIAL TREASURER: What was the imwense value to them, and had saved incal. difference? culable loss of life and money. Mr. FISHER said it did not matter what the difference was, but whatever it might be the Question put and passed. Auditor-General ought to have been informed AUDITOR-GENERAL. of it. The COLONIAL TREASURER moved that Question put and passed. £7,565. be granted for the Auditor·General, On the motion of the COLONIAL TREA· salaries and contingencies. The staff had been SURER, the CHAIRMAN left the chair, reported increased, and all the junior officers had received that the Committee had come to certain resolu· increases according to their merits. tions, and obtained leave to sit again to-morrow. Mr. FISHER asked whether it was intended It was ordered that the resolutions be received to take any other vote after that? to.morrow. The COLONIAL TREASURER: No; this The House adjourned at twenty·five minutes is the last. to 12 o'clock.