Houston Asian American Archive (HAAA) Chao Center for Asian Studies, Rice University

Interviewees: Melanie Pang & Kendall Toarmina Pang Interviewer: Gordan Liu Date of Interview: January 16, 2021 Transcribed by: Ann Shi Reviewed by: Melanie Pang & Kendall Toarmina Pang Audio Track Time: 1:11:57

Background: Melanie Pang (she/her), who was born in Missouri City, TX in 1986, is the Director of Advocacy at the Houston Food Bank. She was the inaugural co-chair of Mayor Sylvester Turner’s LGBTQ Board of Advisory for a two-year term. She advocates for policies that address root causes of poverty and food insecurity, leveraging relationships and resources for social change. Melanie was born of Chinese father and Filipino mother, both immigrants.

Kendall Toarmina Pang (she/her), who received her BA and MBA from Rice University, now is a management consultant at PricewaterhouseCoopers. Kendall is Jewish by faith and is Caucasian.

The couple, who identify as queer, met at Willy’s Pub in Rice University during a drag show when both of them were attending college— Melanie was in University of Houston and Kendall at Rice. They fell in love and even a year of long-distance relationship when Kendall was working in Argentina did not separate them. Kendall proposed to Melanie in the Rice Chapel as a surprise, disguised as an award ceremony. The couple now lives in Houston, with their two rescue dogs.

Setting: The interview took place via Zoom in each person’s residences.

Key: MP: Melanie Pang KTP: Kendall Toarmina Pang GL: Gordan Liu —: speech cuts off; abrupt stop …: speech trails off; pause Italics: emphasis (?): preceding word may not be accurate [Brackets]: actions (laughs, sighs, etc.)

Interview transcript:

GL: Hello, today is January 16, 2021. My name is Gordon Liu and I'm here with Melanie and Kendall Toarmina Pang for the Houston Asian American Archive's special series on love. So, to start us off, could you each briefly introduce yourselves to anyone who's new?

MP: Sure, so great to be on the show with you. My name is Melanie Pang, I grew up in Missouri City, Texas; have grown up in the Houston area pretty much my whole life. went to the University of Houston to pursue a degree in journalism, actually, to pursue a degree in music education, which you know how that goes, changed my major three times. I got my degree in journalism, went back for a degree in social work, and have really enjoyed working in nonprofits in Houston for the last 10 years. And I'm currently at the Houston Food Bank, as their Director of Advocacy. Yeah, that's it. That's it for me.

KTP:

1 I'm Kendall Toarmina Pang and I have been married to this wonderful person, Melanie, for the last three years. I am originally from Nashville, Tennessee. I moved to Houston in 2006. And got my bachelor's at Rice University. I spent a year living in Argentina and came back and started working in nonprofit; did that for about four years; got my MBA from Rice. And I've been with PricewaterhouseCoopers ever since as a management consultant. We have two adorable dogs who are amazing, and a bunch of amazing nieces and nephews. We bought our first house together about three years ago, too. And we've been together for about 10 years. So I think that's a little bit about me.

MP: Oh, and I forgot to mention that. My dad immigrated here from China and my mom came from the Philippines. They got married after knowing each other for about six months or less. And I'm one of four siblings.

GL: Wonderful. Thank you. And could you tell me how you two first met each other?

KTP: Yeah, we. So we first met when we were each in our last year of, of our bachelor's degree. So I was a senior in college. [MP: And I was a super senior.] We... [chuckles] Melanie went to the University of Houston, and I went to Rice University, and she was on campus for an LGBT event. And I saw her perform, and I was just really smitten with her. And so we chatted for just like very briefly, and I exchanged Facebook contact information. And that's how we first met.

MP: I have just some small edits. [KTP: Please go for it.] So I was there. So I was the president of the LGBTQ organization at the University of Houston. I don't remember if there had been a queer Asian person in charge of that group before me. But if there were any, I didn't get the chance to meet them. And one of the things we wanted to do with the University of Houston was to have a drag show. And Ri- Rice University's drag show was like very well renowned at the time. And so I was like, "Oh, well, maybe I'll go check it out." I messaged their Vice President, I think at the time, Jordan, and he said, "Oh, you shouldn't just come and see you should come be a part of it." And so I actually was in drag on stage. And there are actually photos of us before we even knew each other's names, like dancing together, which I thought was pretty cool. So that was our like, first time meeting was after my act. And it was actually because I have, because of our mutual friend Jordan that I was able to find her, because I'm a weirdo and I like to friend everybody I meet. And yeah, so we– we reconnected over Facebook, you know, here and there over time, and that's how I got to know her better.

GL: That's awesome. And what were your first impressions of each other that day?

MP: I'll let Kendall go for it!

KTP: No, no, you go first.

MP: Okay, um, let's see. I mean, super honest. No one asked for super honest. You know, being a part of an LGBT organization and being in the leadership, you think that you're going to be like, so much more attuned to not making assumptions; but I definitely assumed that she was straight. And I assumed that she would not be interested in me, because that's also kind of who I was at that time. I just always assumed

2 that people weren't interested in me anyway. [KTP: What were your first impression of me when you did know me at all?] ...at all, I thought you were just a very, like, joyful, radiant person, and very kind. You were great to have conversations with because you're a great listener, as well as conversationalist. Those are my first impressions.

KTP: My first impressions of Melanie, when I first... like very first saw her before I really knew her, was just that she was very attractive. It was very confusing for me. And then when I actually got to know her better, but I think she sort of mentioned that she was doing, she was gathering donations for some organizations. And I could tell how big a heart that she had. And she was doing this volunteer work and gathering these donations just because she wanted to; not because of any type of like, obligation or program; or like, even, like a certain personal connection. And I just thought that was wonderful. And I thought she was really, really funny. And I mean, very similar to what you said about me, very easy to talk to. And still very attractive. So still very confusing.

MP: Yeah, I actually left that out earlier about the... so. You know, we met at Willy's pub. But the next time we were ever face to face again, was because I posted something on Facebook about getting some donations together. And she said she had donations to give. So my first impression about her kindness and generosity was on point.

GL: So it sounds like this relationship has really evolved in many different stages. And when was the moment that you realized you were in love?

KTP: Oh, I think for me, I, oh, man, there was a moment, when I had spent a lot of time with her, I had picked her up from her house in the morning, because she was again doing some, some wonderful work. Well, she– she had planned to run the Houston like half marathon to raise money for the Houston Food Bank. And long story short, she had gotten sick and wasn't able to, but we were picking up some things related to that. And anyway, we had just, we ended up spending the whole day together. And it was like, three o'clock in the morning by the time I got home. And the next morning, I was having conversations about it and was asked if I was in love with her. And I said yes.

MP: ...was very early.

KTP: I tend to know very quickly if I am in love with Melanie.

MP: I think for where I was at that time, I had sort of been used to very unrequited love situations. And so I was very, I was very cautious, very cautiously optimistic about how things were progressing. And so I was very, kind of— I mean not guarded, per se— but like...

KTP: Not to, I mean, sorry, interrupted, I was also about to move to Argentina within like, six weeks. So yeah. Small details. [MP: ...small detail.] Reasons to be guarded.

MP:

3 And, you know, sometimes how I talk, how I used to talk about Kendall to my friends was that, I was like, "She's all the things that I love about, that I would love to have in one human; and all the circumstances of why we shouldn't be together." Very complicated at the time. And so one of one of the things was long distance relationships. I was like, I don't think I can do that again. I've tried that before twice. And I... you know, should learn my lesson or whatever. But actually, it was after you had already gone, that I realized I just wanted to talk to you every day, which we did; wanted to talk to her for hours, which we also did. And yeah, it just... I don't think there was a moment for me... it was just sort of like... you're integrated in my life now. I just want to be, I want you to be part of it.

KTP: Well, when I was, so when I was actually flying to Argentina, I had spent— gone to spend some time with my mom in Nashville. And I was able to arrange my flight from Nashville to Argentina to where I had, like a five or six hour layover in Houston. And I didn't know until the last like moment, if that was going to work out or if I was going to have like a short layover, where I was just like going from plane to plane. And so I called her at 6am. And I told her, like, "I'm headed to Houston now." Meaning that we would get to spend time together. And that was the first time she said, "I love you."

GL: Wow. So sweet! Um, what was that experience, like being long distance, during that time?

KTP: Fucking hard! Really fucking hard! It was one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life. We saw each other one time, from when I arrived to when I left. So pretty much the whole year went by. Yeah. And my internet connection was awful. So sometimes when we would try to talk, you know, on Skype or whatever, like, we wouldn't be able to understand each other. So we would resort to just like instant messaging, while like sort of being able to see each other's faces. And I think, you know, it was the kind of thing that when you're separated by different continents, it would be really easy to just drift apart; and really easy to just be like, "I've got a lot of shit going on in my life." She was in grad school, I was like, I had a full time job. I had a lot of I had a whole new culture that I had always wanted to go and live in South America. And I was finally getting to do that. And, you know, for us to just say like, "the internet is crappy," like, "Let's talk later." And then like that get fewer and fewer times. But instead, we just— our connection only got stronger and stronger. And it wasn't, it wasn't because like it was convenient, or it was easy, or we were like, afraid of something like... it was just because we were that in love. And we were just that into each other. And so, yeah, coming back, I... sorry, you go ahead.

MP: Um, um, I mean, I think initially, I felt guilty. I was like, "She's over there to do this thing that she's always wanted to do." Like, "just let her go and have a good time." And like, "Be with an Argentinian man if she wants to." Like I, you know, feels easy to say now. But I just, I felt guilty that I was like keeping her from something. But also, like, I think I'd always wanted someone to fight for our relationship, you know, like to be with somebody who cared so much that they would, you know, get on a bus and sit next to a chicken for 16 hours to get on that bus.

Well, the one visit that we did get to do, she took a nine... what, how long was it? 16 hour bus ride? I took a nine hour flight to be with, we were together for like five days or something. I mean, that was the one like in person interaction we had in the whole 10 to 12 months that we were apart. And for us to have just enough of a connection, like emotionally, mentally; writing emails to each other the, you know, equivalent of love letters back then. You know, like, having all of that be the only thing that was keeping it together is just like ... so unique. I, yeah, but it made me have a lot of trust.

KTP:

4 Yeah.

GL: Yeah. Sounds like that was a really transformative experience. What did that experience teach you all about love in general?

KTP: Huh...

MP: You can go ahead.

KTP: Hoping you had something. Such a tough question. I mean, I think for me, I– I don't know about anybody else. You know, I think everyone, every person is unique. Every relationship is unique. But for me, I think it really cemented that Melanie and I had a really strong connection. And I had been, I had been in a, you know, a few serious relationships in the past. And one of them, I realized that we enjoyed doing things together that were fun, more than we enjoyed each other. But when things got hard, like there was, there wasn't a lot of “there” there. And Melanie and I had already been through things that were super hard. And we had already had a lot of really tough conversations about like, why are we together? What, what is, what do we want out of a relationship? What do we want in the future? Like, what are we willing to sacrifice for the relationship? And we had made those sacrifices in, in real life. And it felt so worth it. So I think that for me, that was an important thing that I learned out of the experience.

MP: Thanks for letting me go second.

KTP: Yeah.

MP: I think it's, you know, as cheesy as it is, and everyone says it, like, you know, love is a verb, it's an act, and you have to choose it every day. You know, like, we were saying about our bond, like, she could go be with an Argentinian man, I wouldn't have any idea. You know, we could, we could easily choose not to be together, especially back then. And especially with the fact that like, you know, to be a queer person is a different life unto itself. And so like, you know, I don't want to speak for your identity, obviously; but like, as a, as a queer person who's both attracted, or who's attracted to, you know, multitude of identities. You know, there are easier ways to be with people in society. But you know, what's the best one, the truest one like...? [KTP: Yeah.] Yeah, it kind of helped solidify for me that even even though long distances are garbage...

KTP: I won't recommend long distance relationships to anyone, like [MP: I don't recommend it!] don't... to be avoided at all costs, if at all.

MP: Sorry, Gordon, if you're in one right now. But try to figure it out. [chuckles] Oh, yeah, I didn't think of that as like being— maybe it's because we've had more distance from her. I already think of that as being one of the more defining moments like, you learn how to be a part; and then once you're together, you have to learn how to be together. Like, there's just all these...

5 KTP: Being together was a lot easier.

MP: Just kidding. No, we could go on and on about that.

KTP: Yeah, and I mean, there were– there were also all the challenges of being... and I know, you have some questions about these topics later. But it wasn't only— like during that time period, it wasn't only the distance; it was a new relationship; it was an interracial relationship; it was queer relationship; it was a interfaith relationship. [MP: And your first relationship with a woman.] My first out-relationship with, with a woman. Yeah. So yeah, there were– there were definitely challenges. We overcame them.

GL: Yeah, for sure. What were some of the defining moments moving on into your relationship?

KTP: You can go first.

MP: Oh, yeah. Um, um, gosh, I mean, living together, like I was talking about earlier is just very different. And I think that are, like cultural differences are the— different ways that we've grown up, like really shown here. It really came to the surface. You know, figuring out how to like, even schedules, right, like, knowing where the other person is what they're doing, oh, well, if we're going to get dinner or if we're going to fix dinner or whatever, what time is that going to happen? And I'm looking at you but it– it– those are things people have to figure out as couples like. But I had just gotten so used to being a poor, like, college student mind— like that mindset. You eventually have to evolve out of and be like, "Okay, there, your life is more than just like your agenda, your schedule." Because like I've been so involved in different things on campus, and I had booked myself, you know, morning to midnight of just like, here's all the stuff I have to get done. And when you live with somebody and you care for someone, and you want to have a relationship in person, it's not about, "Okay, well, I'll schedule when I talk to you." It's like, no! Gotta be engaging with you on a regular basis. So, I mean, I wouldn't say that was defining, but it's certainly, like, a pivot away from love letters and, you know, scheduled moments we get to have together. [KTP: May I pull this [the computer] closer? I just realized I was leaning in really hard.] Yeah, it's really, it's really and really hard. Yeah. I have another one. But it's a little further in the timeline. I don't know if you have one that's earlier.

KTP: No, I’m just listening to you.

MP: Oh, okay. [KTP: Why don't you tell the other one too?] Yeah, so the other one for me. I was only speaking from my perspective was, when I was in the middle of transitioning after grad school into the workforce, I had a hell of a time trying to find work. And I think a lot of people can relate that that does, that does something to your self esteem, it does something to your overall vibe.

KTP: Like, during the tail end of the, like, the Great Recession, like there were a lot of folks in our generation who were in a similar position. And it was really tough.

MP:

6 Yeah, I had previous work, some previous work experience and a master's degree and I was applying for $25,000 a year jobs, and still not getting a callback. You know, so I think that was probably one of the lower points in my life that she hadn't seen yet, you know. And I'm sure there might be more to come. But, you know, seeing how well we struggled together, made it very real for me that this is somebody I could spend the rest of my life with.

KTP: My biggest struggle at that time was when she brought home my dog son, Pepe. And I met him for the first time we had... God, we've had him so long now. Um, yeah, that's super true. And I think we've very much... those tough times happen some defining moments, when I... So she went to grad school right after undergrad, I waited until 2015. I had been out of undergrad five years to, to, you know, decide if I was going to get a graduate degree and do that. And it was really freaking hard. My, my MBA was one of the hardest things I've ever done. And she was just really wonderful during that time with being supportive. And like, try just picking up a lot of slack of things that I was... There were times that I was just falling apart. It was rough. It was really rough. And I think, I mean, I think so those are some of the tough defining moments, right? I think there have also been really, really positive defining moments, which I know, if we, if we don't mind moving, like into like, proposal, we can do that. Um, I mean, I think like us getting engaged was like a huge turning point in our relationship, because...

MP: Oh, no, no! I am. No, I am totally on the same page. But I cannot move forward until I mentioned that, I am like a— once I know I want to be with somebody, I can sometimes jump the gun and be like, "Let's get married. Let's do this." And it's like, "Okay, that's been like two years." Which is even a long time by our parents' standards.

KTP: A lot of our peers. [MP: Yeah.] I think a lot of our peers is two years. Yeah, very normal amount of time.

MP: Like, by the time we were engaged, it was sort of like slow clap. But when we first started dating, you know, she had kind of said that she wasn't really interested in getting married. And, you know, we were on different ends of the spectrum. And I was like, I— you know, it's not even like that I daydream about it or anything; but growing up, I was figured I would get married. And I think over time, we started to come more towards the center of like, "Yeah, I kind of see why people don't get married." And started to kind of be like, "Yeah, I kind of can see the benefit of," like, "locking it down." So we had this one conversation where you know, I said, "Do you think you'll ever be ready?" And she's like, "Well, if I ever do get married, I need to be with the person at least like five years." And like from that moment in my head, I was like, "Clock starts now." Let's see how this goes. But I wasn't counting every day, I was just sort of...

KTP: By the time we got to five years, you weren't counting at all!

MP: I wasn't counting at all, because I had come around the spectrum toward the middle of being like, "Well, you know, if it's forever, we'll be together forever."

KTP: Well, and I think, I think also like, where a lot of it comes from is our, like our cultural and family backgrounds being different, because my parents... They haven't been a couple since I was two years old. And I didn't have good impressions of marriage based on that. And, and honestly, just a lot of what I saw

7 around me, my friend's parents were divorced. And other people I knew, like, there was a couple that I thought was like this perfect couple. And then it turned out, I guess one of them had been cheating on the other one. And they were like, in their 60s. It was like, sort of like what I thought had been a role model. And then was like, "Oh, all right, now I have none." So I don't think I want that "thing", because it doesn't seem to ever work out well. Versus... Well, I'm not to tell Melanie's story. But I had seen a lot of divorce.

Melanie's parents have been together for 45 or 50 years. And not that their relationship is perfect, but they didn't get divorced. So it's, I think we just saw very different things. And I, and I'm sure you saw a lot of other relationships that I didn't. It was, for me, it was really the seeing the LGBT community, seeing people that hadn't had the, you know, right, to get married, extended to them, you know, an official government recognized way. And they had been together for 40 years anyway, because they just loved each other. And meeting those people and seeing them together and just— was really beautiful. And it was something brand new for me.

So the time that Melanie and I spent in the LGBT community, you know, from 2012, through when I finally did propose, I think that had a big influence. And I wouldn't be honest, if I, you know, the Supreme Court rulings in favor of marriage equality, were hugely inspiring. Seeing all of those couples getting married, it definitely influenced me of thinking like, "Oh, hey, we didn't have this, this, this. All of these rights and, you know, things that we couldn't access before. And now we can." And I realized, "Oh, yeah, those would be good things to have. I want to be able to visit her in the hospital, I want to have everyone know that we're just as much just as serious as a couple like, we're a permanent part of each other's lives. We're family, we're each other's family."

So for me, getting engaged and wanting to get married was a lot more about wanting to have that recognized by society. Like I always felt like, we always knew how much we loved each other. Once we actually did get engaged and married, I realized, "Oh, I like, you know, having that 'thing' with each other," that like, "Oh, this is permanent. Put the rings on it." Oh, I just showed you the wrong ring. Left hand, left hand! [Chuckles] For University, I'm kidding. [Chuckles] It’s just a class ring... Not gonna twist it.

Um, yeah, yeah. So I'm really, I'm really glad that we did that. It was really special. So yes, getting engaged and getting married were obviously very defining moments. And I think our friends and family seeing us get engaged and then get married was— I think it just it changed the outside world's relationship to our relationship, and changed their perception of our relationship.

MP: I mean, I think my– my models for relationships, were a little unhealthy, let's say. I would say, you know, when I– when I learned about Kendall's background and the people in her lives and relationships in her life; and I compare them with mine, I was kind of like, "Man, there's some people I think just shouldn't be together. Like I kind of wish they would split." You know, my parents have had a very tumultuous life and have their own traumas and things that they've needed, you know, they need to deal with. And when I approached this relationship that I knew would be long term, I have always had it in my head that like, we're not together so we can hurt each other. So like, how can we do as little of that as humanly possible? How can we be very intentional about like, putting love first, being kind, being gentle with each other? And one of the things I love about Kendall is that she's just so gentle with me. So patient. Yeah, and I hope I reciprocate that level of patience to way more. [KTP: Oh.] We're hugging right now, since this is audio.

GL: Wow, thank you all for sharing. I really enjoyed hearing about your experiences and stories. Um, what– what does it feel like breaking away from those previous narratives of love that you observed growing

8 up? And kind of, like you said, intentionally creating a new form of love with each other? What is that like?

MP: Oh, it's like everything in my life. Feels like there's no playbook. I feel like we— I don't know I— come here actually, this is... our dog is panting in the background... so cute. Um, actually was when we were planning our wedding, that this occurred to me. There's, there's all these ways that you think you're supposed to do something. And then you realize: it's not about that, it's about us! And what we want, and what we want to, how we want to express our joy and express our love. And so I don't know, I— there's, I should take it back. There is a playbook. It's just not interesting to us. And the more we embrace that, I feel like, the better we are for it.

KTP: Yeah, no, I mean, so the question of like, how does it feel to kind of create our own kind of relationship and break away from those other models. It feels great. It feels really good. I, to be honest, my relationship with Melanie and our whole life is the best thing in my life by far. And the thing I care about the most, and the place that I feel most like, I have any idea what I'm doing. I like my natural instincts. I can trust them. I just— life is hard. The world is a hard place. And I just feel really grateful. But now being with Melanie is— not that it's easy, but it just always feels right. It always feels right. And it always feels like when I make a mistake, we can always come back from that.

MP: Same. And I make a lot of mistakes.

KTP: I make more mistakes.

GL: Yeah, that's wonderful. Um, what are some ways you like to show affection to each other in your relationship?

MP: Yeah, so you know that book "Five Love Languages" book, or whatever. There's like physical touch. There's gifts. There's all these things. I'm definitely a service [KTP: Acts of service.] I'm definitely a physical touch person, as well as I think acts of service too.

KTP: Quality time. That's another one.

MP: Quality time is a big one for you, I think.

KTP: Oh, yes. Sorry. That one exists.

MP: But yeah, I mean, I... Gosh, sometimes I feel like I tell her I love her too much. Like, I hope it's not watering down the value.

KTP: No, never.

9

MP: And that's why we're such good...

KTP: We're both very expressive. Effusive. [MP: Yes.] We're very willing to share our emotions. I share my emotions way too much. Big emotions. Not always great at work. When I'm happy, it's great everyone knows I'm happy; when I'm sad or upset, usually everyone knows that too. So... I forgot the question. [MP: Love Languages.] How do we express affection? Yes. So my love language is all of the love languages. I prefer all of them. So yes, I think gifts can usually like, that can be lower on the list, as long as all of the others are being met. But then if like one of the others are like, I just am feeling like a strain and the others, then give— starts to come back up— give me a gift, substitute something like... I don't even anyway. Yeah, I mean, I think we show affection by, you know doing each other favors and spending quality time together, and hugs and kisses, and...

MP: Oh yes. And I think something else relevant to bring up with that is we are like that everywhere we go. And that is different than what some other people are used to seeing. You know, I, when I was in college, I mean the whole holding hands under tables and sneaking kisses in cars and stuff like that. And once I felt like a full adult, like, I just wanted to stop hiding all the time. And one of the amazing things about Kendall even though we're, you know, this is her first like out relationship. She's always she's never been afraid to hold my hand. And I've always admired that about you.

GL: That's great. When you all are spending quality time together, what are some things you'd like to do?

KTP: Well, in the current situation, we like to spend time outside; we like to— we actually before this, we took our dogs too, on a long walk and just enjoyed the sunshine and nature. And...

MP: We've really gotten into hiking lately, trying to take road trips on our days off and... yeah, I enjoy just being outside like a stereotypical woman couple. Subaru. We do have a Subaru. And I know that we're coming close to the hour. I don't mind going a little over if we need to get to the all the topics even. Yeah.

KTP: Yeah. We don't have anything else on.

GL: Sounds good. I'm wondering if y'all have ever felt that heteronormativity has influenced how you relate to each other? And if so, like, how do you navigate these norms that are out there?

KTP: Yeah, I think for me, personally, the biggest way that heteronormativity impacts our relationship is this, like outside pressure trying to sort of like put us in that box of like, you know, "which one of you is the guy?" Or like, they don't ask, people don't ask. They just see that one of us has long hair, and wears earrings. And you know, things that they associate with femininity. And the other one of us does, you know, has short hair and doesn't wear makeup, or you know, a lot of jewelry... and they associate that not femininity. And they just sort of like make a lot of assumptions about what that means for our relationship that are completely untrue. So it's just mainly like, I mean, you just try to find the humor in things. So it's a lot of that, even to the point where, when we were getting married, we had all of our rehearsals with our

10 wedding planner, and everything. We had told everyone and put in all of the writing and everything that Melanie was going to walk down the aisle. Second, even though I was wearing a dress, and she was wearing a suit. She was going to be the last person to walk in. And when we— and we practice that the whole time. When we got to our actual wedding, our wedding planner was like— "and then Melanie," "and then Kendall," and I was like, "No! No! This isn't how it goes! This isn't the plan." And then, you know, like Melanie said, you don't have to follow whatever the playbook is of like, “Oh yeah, the person in the dress usually walks in lastly.” Doesn't matter what usually happens. You can do whatever the heck you want at your own wedding. And that's what we wanted was for her to be the last one to walk in. And, and that's what happened, and it was fine. But it was just funny that like, that just people have these ideas in their mind of like how things are gonna go. And you have like a short haired person and a long haired person, like one of you has to be the guy.

MP: Yeah, I feel like everything. heteronormativity is like being given all these really crappy PowerPoint templates from 1999. You just have to like make, you know, like you can either modify those, "fine, great," or you could just make your own and...

KTP: ...and you kind of already have your own. You just have to like...

MP: ...allow it to manifest. Yeah, similarly, like I wanted men in part of my bridal party, because, you know, they were my closest friends who helped me so much throughout my life, and so we had bridesman. And so I think, you know, the ripple effect of that is then that other people are trying their best to meet us where we are. And so then they trip up on the words, they say the wrong things. And, you know, we're very empathetic people. And so we're, we're okay with that journey. But we also know that other people that can feel really exhausting to, like, hear people get it wrong all the time. So I feel like, as much as we, you know, try to do our own thing. We recognize that in doing our own thing, there's a learning curve for everybody else. [KTP: Yeah.] And even that's tiring for us sometimes, too.

KTP: Yeah. And I think the way that, that I experienced it, too, there's a lot of things like, wrapped up together, where people make a lot of assumptions. Because we are, again, not just two women couple were like us. So you may have noticed that like, I have not— neither of us have called ourselves a lesbian couple, which a lot of the time people just assume that two women as a couple equals lesbian. Neither of us actually identify as lesbian, we identify as queer. And so there's just it all kind of tends to go together like being a queer couple, that's interfaith and inter, interracial, and etc, etc, of like, people think that certain things are going to be the case that are not.

MP: Like, I'm over here in my like, backwards baseball cap or whatever, but I am the way— I cried everything. I'm very, very [KTP: ...sensitive.] very sensitive, very sensitive. And, you know, not that there's like, the Newlywed Game is asking, like, "Which of the two of you use more?" You know, sensitive. But, you know, it's like subtle assumptions that you can pick up from people that like, "Come on, Melanie, like, let's," you know, "buck up and..." whatever.

KTP: And yeah, yeah, we had someone say something about, like, you know, even though we're an interfaith— I'm Jewish— so we're in an interfaith couple. But if we raise our kids Jewish, then like, certain things are okay; like, it's, like more okay to be interfaith. And I told that person, "Well we plan to adopt our kids, so they might already have their own religion. So like, we're not gonna choose our child's religion for them

11 necessarily." And that was like, mind blown. So yeah, [MP: ...constant education.] Assumptions. Yeah. Just, yeah. Dispelling assumptions, myths and educating.

GL: Right. And could you talk more about what you like about the word "queer" to define your relationship?

KTP: For me, it's very inclusive. So, you know, lesbian is specifically like women who only like other women. Gay for me, is also very inclusive. I'll call myself gay. But it's also like, kind of rooted in like, a term that’s more typically applied to men. And so it's kind of like, I'm trying to shoehorn myself into like, you know, I— can I join your group of men? Which is fine. Yeah, so I, queer for me is like more of an umbrella term of like, the spectrum of the LGBT community. Because there's, there's like a, almost an infinite number of sexual orientations, besides just queer and— excuse me, lesbian and gay, there's bi, there's pan, etc. And so I, because I don't identify as lesbian. I just prefer to be sort of under that umbrella.

MP: Yeah, I like the... Yeah, I don't, I don't like to be pigeonholed or told, you know, that if I, if I were to have some kind of other attractions like, "Oh, well, what would that mean for me?" It's like, "No, I don't want to have a crisis every time I am reevaluating." You know, I do believe that sexuality is very fluid over the time of your life. And in moments, like, you know, some people would joke— I keep bringing up college for some reason— but I just would joke that they are like, insert person's name sexual. So it was like, "It's not that I'm attracted to all these people. I'm just attracted to, you know, I'm a Kendall sexual or whatever." And it's like, "Oh, honey." You know, let's just free yourself by creating a more inclusive label.

KTP: Oh, yeah. I had a high school friend who would always say, "I'm not a lesbian, but..." And then want to like, you know, follow up with some like, "let's kiss." Oh!

MP: You have some interesting classmates.

GL: Um, yeah. And we talked a little bit about society's kind of misunderstanding of gender roles. What's been your experiences with society's perception of interracial relationships? Or interfaith relationships?

MP: Um, I think, one, you know, me being Asian American and Kendall being perceived as White or easily... I think we have a lot of privilege in the sense that I don't think anybody would come up to us and, you know, shun us for having an interracial relationship. The fact that we're both women is way more an affront to people than it is, I think, mostly, you know, than it is for our races. But so I just want to call out the like, I think we're...

KTP: ...we're very privileged.

MP: ...privileged.

KTP:

12 Yeah. Well, we, I mean, we, we talk about eyeballs, which is like, when people are staring at us, and so I can guess why they might be staring at us. I don't super know. You know, is it because we're gay, or 'cause we're different races or because I'm just dressed so great. Like, I don't know, but I just know, there's a lot of eyeballs on us right now. So sometimes we'll be like, “Eyeballs in here. You want to get out of here?”

MP: Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, it's always hard to know, how people are judging. You know, which thing are they not liking in this moment? Take our survey.

KTP: Right. I have had, you know, I brought Melanie to my family's Christmas. Well, that's kind of complicated, because I told them I'm Jewish, my family has a Christmas thing. It's complicated. But to my dad's side of the family's Christmas Eve, like celebration, and two family members of mine, like got into a discussion that was extremely negative about China, and, like, their impressions of like, Chinese products, etc., right in front of me and Melanie. And I was just like, I don't know what to do, like, should I...? I like, took her aside. And I was like, "Shall I punish them? Or I can tell them off?" Like, what would you— what would be your preference right now? And she said, like, "Let's just just move away and just leave this situation." Which was probably the most— least disruptive.

MP: I think the healthy choice?

KTP: The healthy. Yes, yes, the healthiest option.

MP: And I love that she asked me what I felt like was the best thing in that moment. Right. Like, I think sometimes, it's really easy for people who feel like they want to be allies to people or accomplices to people and they will make a stand. And then suddenly, you're the center of attention. And you're, you know, it's like, "Oh, dear!" Like, I'm so grateful that she asks me in those moments how she can best support me.

KTP: I do try to educate the family members that I'm actually close to and private. Not the ones I'm not close to. We've all got to draw a line somewhere, boundaries.

MP: And something else occurred to me as we were talking is, I think, something that I used to be guilty of not calling my friends out on over time was that they would sometimes forget that I'm “Asian”. You know, the, like, "Oh, yeah, you know, you wear all the same clothes as White people, you cut your hair a certain way or, you know, you walk and talk like any other White person I know." So I guess I just like sometimes forget that you have this other cultural difference. And you know, as I got older, that's kind of like, "That's messed up." You know, I even though I may have a lot of cultural similarities, because of my peers, like, that doesn't erase the fact that I have a whole other world that I've come from, you know, and I'm proud of, and in parts. And so I think sometimes the interracial thing even from my friends' perspectives, I'm not even sure that they really think of us as an interracial couple. I don't even know that it's really like... that might be mind blowing for someone that that it really registers.

KTP: Yeah, sometimes we bring it up and they're like, "Oh, yeah. Oh you are interracial..."

13

MP: And it's not like I like to sit around and think about how I'm different all the time or that I want other people to... Right. But it's like there is a uniqueness and something special about this. You know, it's nice to have it acknowledged.

GL: Yeah. Sounds like kind of advocacy and being allies almost inherent to being in a relationship, that y'all are in, can you talk more about what it's been like? What is involved in terms of educating yourselves? Changing behavior, things like that? Like when it comes to your partner's identities?

KTP: I mean, I think I've– I've always been someone who's very interested in educating myself on... [MP:... everything.] I was gonna say different cultures. But sure, that's also true probably, as long as it's not math. Um, I majored in Latin American Studies. When I was in high school, I did two different, like, extracurricular programs that were about Asian Studies. And yeah, I think, for me, I– I always, always had friends that were somewhat diverse... [MP: ... friend group.] ...Yes. A friend group. Yeah, exactly.

MP: Can I jump in? [KTP: Yeah, please.] So one of the things that I learned about Kendall very early in our relationship was that she had a group of Persian friends. And she had taken a class on... [KTP: Persian culture literature.] Yeah. Persian culture [KTP:... and language. Yeah.] And I asked her why back then. And she said, "Well, why wouldn't, like why wouldn't I?

KTP: First I met Amir. [MP: Yeah.] And then I met Amir's other friend and another friend. And then we all became friends. And then by the time I knew them all, and was like, we had been hanging out, they, whenever they were offering this class, I was like, amazing. Like, of course, I want to take that class.

MP: I had not met a single White person who said, "I have all these culturally diverse friends. And I'm going to take a class so I can better understand them." Like, what a special unique person! You know, like, she actually literally spent credit hours in college to better understand the people that she cares about. Like, that's amazing.

I have another story that is also bragging about you. I think earlier in our relationship had, I've always had insecurities about like my body, about how people perceive my body. You know, I cut my, I cut my hair short, I have a pretty like, muscular-ish build. I growing up— and oh, and like, you know, flat chest— and so like growing up, I had all these insecurities about like femininity and my feminine enough, am I this enough? Would I be more attractive if I looked basically more like a White person— which is what our media is trying to tell us, and all of the consumer products are trying to tell you, right? Straighten your hair, do all these things. And I have like, big coarse, wavy hair that I'm coming to appreciate now. But it's been a journey. And I remember telling Kendall, all these things. And me being like, am I even, should I even feel like I'm a woman? Like, I don't even know. And she was like, "Well, why couldn't...?" I always mess this up... I forget how you phrased it.

KTP: It's just, we were— we have, we have a friend group who is gender diverse as well, and their gender identities. And, you know, we– we try to seek to understand gender identity and all of the different forms. And so we were— my recollection of the conversation is we were talking about that. And we were talking about like what our own like, do I feel like a cis person? Do I feel like— you know, I was assigned female

14 at birth, like everyone has always considered me a girl or woman like, do I still feel like that? And for Melanie, my recollection of what you said was, "I feel like a woman. I don't feel like, I am a man or anything like that. But I feel like the world keeps telling me that I'm not feminine enough that I don't fit in to the definition of what a woman is for them." And I was like, "Well that’s a fucked up definition. Like, [MP: It's the definition that needs to change.] Woman needs to expand itself to include Melanie, because she is a woman. She's always been. She's, you know, that's who she is. She is like, she's a woman. She's always been a girl or woman. And like that's what woman is. She is one. So woman also includes her.

MP: So yeah, and I had– I hadn't really explored that with it or discussed that in such a way with anybody. And yeah, it helped me so much to accept who I am, to accept the fact that like, words and definitions and all of that can be expanded. Like we've kind of a theme that's emerged from this whole conversation right, that like, "you do you." And you, being your authentic self, like contributes to the evolution of how we define these things moving forward. So I'm just, you know, it's not that I needed Kendall to tell me I'm a woman, it's that I needed to, I needed help expanding my definition. She helps expand my– my worldview in so many ways.

GL: That's really beautiful. For our audience, what would you say are some specific things about relationships that can cultivate self acceptance, self love, as you all were telling us about?

KTP: Oh, wow, that's a really good question. It's a hard question. You know, I think, to, to reference pop culture, I used to, you know, I had heard that RuPaul quote, that was, you know, it was like, "If you can't love yourself, how can you love anybody else?" Right. And so Lizzo, her quote, that sort of riff on that was, you know, she talking to her fans, she said, "If you all can love me, you can love you." And I think both of those for me, had a lot of power, because I tried to cultivate, you know, self love, and, and self acceptance and all of that. But I'm not a perfect person, I hadn't completely gotten there. And so I really appreciated Lizzo's sort of update of that quote, and I think we've each benefited from that of, you know— if Melanie can love me, and all of my flaws and everything, like why can't I? What... you know, why, why couldn't I do that too? And so, sort of being kind with myself, treating myself the way that you know, a good friend or a trusted family friend or family member, or my spouse would treat me like, is that so hard? Why am I so hard on myself? That's, that's, I think, what I would say, very top of my head.

MP: Very well put. Yeah, that gentleness, that tenderness that I think I was talking about earlier. Like, I use that all the time. And even though I'm the educated social, the social worker with a certificate. Kendall is like my social worker, she...

KTP: ...learned from the master.

MP: Yeah, no, I mean, one of the things that she, she had talked about either learning or just wanted to share with me was about, you know, negative self talk. So like, when you're beating yourself up, like, if someone had come to you, if your best friend had come to you with that same scenario, would you be saying that to them? And so to treat yourself with the same kindness, that someone who cares about you or loves you, and like to even have that role model in real life is such a, I'm so lucky, I feel so fortunate and grateful. Because a lot of people might say, "No, I don't, I don't want this, you know, I don't want to think about how my spouse would react to that." And it's not always with the same amount of empathy. So, yeah, I think just, I think we'd read some articles too, about, like, you know, a bid. So like, if

15 somebody is trying to clearly connect with you and act with you, even if you don't love, you know, badminton, or, you know, going for a walk at 9pm. Like, every now and then you gotta just do it. You know, you take that bid for connection.

KTP: A walk at 9pm referencing the fact that I wanted to go for a walk late last night and you came with me? Yes, it is. I can tell by your face.

Yeah, you wanted to make sure I was safe.

MP: Yeah. Sometimes you gotta just do the thing that will bring you closer to you. You got to choose, choose the relationship, over being right; choose the relationship over...

KTP: ...always choose the relationship over being right. And I mean, I think the other thing I would say, we are dorks who are very into Brene Brown. And I think there's a lot there about communication. That's because people I say, like communication is key communication is most important. Like, "cool," but like, "what about it?" So I think a lot of the, the advice that she has around how to communicate with each other, how to express like, "hey, when you did this thing, it made me feel this way. And I don't know if that's what your intention was, I'm not assuming that's what your intention was. But that's how I'm feeling right now. Like, can we talk some more about this?" That type of communication has gone a really long way.

MP: It also means we talk a lot...

KTP: We do talk a lot, I love talking. [MP: I love talking to you. Yeah.] And also like getting out of the like, like, when you did that thing, you made me feel this way. And so what? Like and so I would ask for you to do X next time instead. Because that will, you know, be better for me in these ways, like moving to the future looking up like, "Hey, I'm sorry, I made a mistake. I didn't mean to, and I will do better next time in these ways." That's, I think, been a huge... The fact that we both think that way, and we both communicate that way, it makes it really easy for us to move through arguments. I think a lot of our friends and family are surprised that, we like, ever have any disagreements; they think we're like this magical couple. And, you know, we certainly have disagreements, and we do resolve them really quickly and easily. And not that they're trivial, or that they're insignificant, they are significant. And we were able to figure them out, you know, we're able to figure out how to move forward together.

MP: Yeah. Because we, we choose to, I think that's like a key thing is like you really have to want to move on. If you don't want to move on. That means you want to stay angry. And like, how is that serving you? How is that serving the relationship?

KTP: So and like just admitting that you did something wrong. Like frequently I come to Melanie, and I'm like, "Hey, I'm upset that you did this thing." And then when she tells me like her perceptions of what happened and the things that I did that made her think that I wanted X or whatever, I'm like, "Oh, I did do and say that. And I do understand why you would have thought that then. Fair enough. My mistake. No, I'm sorry. I'm the one who messed up. [MP: Yeah.] You're right.

MP:

16 Not coming with assumptions. [KTP: Yeah.] Anyway, that's our relationship hour. Thank you. [Chuckles] Kidding.

GL: Yeah, those are some really great takeaways. And it's really great that y'all communicate as an everyday practice. And it's not necessarily a crisis in the relationship. I think you have, y'all shared some really great tips. I want to end on a question which you all can take are short term or long term as you want; and I know life is very unexpected. But what is, what kind of life do y'all want to build together in the future?

MP: Big wide open questions. [GL: Yeah.]

KTP: I think we'll always have dogs.

MP: We'd better.

KTP: Well, then we will. I think a lot of the things we, you know, when we first got together, we had no money, we had plenty of debt. We had very baby beginnings of careers. We had no dogs. Dark Ages, we had nothing because we had no dogs. And we had so many dreams, you know of like, what our life might be like? And what– what we could accomplish together? And I think we're already so far on this amazing journey that I hoped for. So I wished for so much you know, that we would be able to buy a house together, have two dogs be able to you know, before the pandemic, we took trips to Peru, we took trips to China we and even during the pandemic, we've, we've visited a lot of parts of Texas in a safe way that I probably would have never gotten to because I would have been too busy going farther away. So, I mean, I feel like we're already sort of like in the future life that I had hoped for. I mean, if you don't mind me sharing more about some of the things we've talked about, I do think the next very different phase of our future life will be adopting our kids. And that will, you know, that's a life that we will build together. I think we're, we're sort of like, in similar stages on the journey, and we sometimes like leapfrog each other go backwards and forwards about when and how ready we feel to adopt those kids. And, and what about our life? You know, whether we'll move? Or how, you know, how will, how that will look? We're figuring out a lot of them. And a lot of it I'm sure we won't figure out until they're in our lives. But I think that's sort of the thing on the horizon that will be different in the future.

MP: Yeah, I very much really too live in the dream. I have so, so many things I didn't even know I wanted, didn't even know I could have. And literally, like, didn't know I could get married. Like I wasn't...

KTP: We didn't think we could get married?

MP: We didn't think we could get...

KTP: I didn't think I would and I think I mean, I think a big part of me saying I don't know if I ever want to get married, was the fact that, we couldn't get married to each other. So I wasn't trying to want something I couldn't have. Yeah. And I'm like, I know, we could have gone to a different state or Canada; but it just wasn't the same as knowing that it would be fully recognized as being the same. I know you said this

17 would be the last question. We didn't really touch too much on like family acceptance. That was definitely something that my personal struggle wasn't anywhere near as challenging as a lot of people; but was definitely a big piece. And we've been together for 10 years now. And my family has come a long, long, long way. And I think having, you know, having marriage equality be a national thing that was completely the same. You know, if we get married in Texas, or Tennessee, or wherever it is recognized just the same in all 50 states that we are legally equal to any other couple; that I think that normalized a lot of things for my family. And yeah, I you know, I think I didn't really realize it until I said it just now as we were talking that I didn't want something I didn't think I could have.

MP: You heard it here first.

KTP: Yeah. So that did make a really big difference. So yeah, marriage equality. I mean, that's, that's huge.

MP: Yeah, I have a lot.

KTP: And now we have workplace equality. Sorry, I interrupted you. But I mean, the fact that we have workplace equality, I think that was a piece of news that... when it came on 2019, [MP: It was very overshadowed.] it was either late 2019, or very early 2020. It was so ignored, so overshadowed and was such a big deal for me personally, that I have federal protection against being discriminated in my job for being gay. That's huge. Because before that, it was like you can get married on Saturday and fired on Monday, as a gay person. Like just for being gay, and you have no federal recourse. And if you live in Houston, Texas, you had no recourse at all. There was nothing you could do about it. They could say, "Hello, we learned you're gay, and you're fired for that." And you could just pack your bags and leave. You couldn't sue anyone, can't do anything.

MP: Yeah. And I think that these legal protections like— of course, now you're getting me to put my like "director of advocacy hat" on, but get me real riled up. You know, those policies really stratified the LGBTQ community. It was like, if your main concern was getting married, you must not have a whole lot else to worry about; when it comes to finding a job, keeping a job, making sure you're not getting kicked out of your housing; just your general safety and well being. I mean, there's so many things to the LGBTQ community that were even more core to our success. That we as privileged people didn't have as much to worry about. But if I think about like, the life we want to build together in the future, the thing that I have a lot of faith in is that anything we've ever wanted and pursued— we've gotten. Like this is not because of me as an individual, but you know, if we want rights, we're advocates for that. Like, we want to be a part of that. You know, when I was in college people would say, "If you want marriage equality, moved to California." And I would be like, "What? So every gay person in Texas should move to California." That makes no sense, right? Like, [KTP: We live here.] we live here, and we want to make our lives better here. We want to make everyone's lives better here. And so our life is not just built on the love we have for each other. It's built on the love we have for everyone around us. We want our families to be whole and successful and feel, you know, happy and healthy. We want those same things for our neighbors.

KTP: Yeah, regardless of their race, their sexual orientation, etc. [MP: We…] immigration status.

MP:

18 Yeah. So I mean, we've been very passionate about, you know, fighting poverty, fighting injustice wherever we are. And I don't see that changing. So.

KTP: Yeah, I'd like to do more of that in the future. Yeah. Future life I'd like to build.

MP: Sounds great. Thanks for listening, Gordon.

GL: Y'all are like two badass superheroes. I really appreciate hearing about how your relationship connects to the bigger picture and how your relationship is so much more than just, just you two as individuals. Like this has been a really great experience, hearing your stories. And I want to thank you all for your time again.

KTP: Thank you. Thanks for the invitation.

MP: Thank you.

[Interview concludes.]

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