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SENATE Official Committee Hansard COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES SENATE Official Committee Hansard FINANCE AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION LEGISLATION COMMITTEE (Consideration of Estimates) THURSDAY, 8 MAY 1997 BY AUTHORITY OF THE SENATE CANBERRA 1997 CONTENTS THURSDAY, 8 MAY Department of The Senate— Program 1—Clerk’s Office .............................. 2 Program 6—Black Rod’s Office ........................... 19 Department of The Prime Minister and Cabinet .................. 22 Program 2—Government Support Services— Subprogram 2.1—Machinery of Government ................ 42 Program 4—Corporate Services ........................... 46 Department of Administrative Services— Program 2—Government services— Subprogram 2.1—Domestic Property Group ................. 65 Subprogram 2.4—Ministerial and parliamentary services ........ 76 Program 4—Corporate Management ........................ 96 Department of Finance ................................... 103 Thursday, 8 May 1997 SENATE—Legislation F&PA 1 SENATE Thursday, 8 May 1997 FINANCE AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION LEGISLATION COMMITTEE Portfolios: Parliament; Prime Minister and Cabinet; Finance (including Administrative Services) Members: Senator Short (Chair), Senator Murray (Deputy Chair), Senators Heffernan, Mackay, Ray and Watson Participating members: Senators Abetz, Bishop, Bolkus, Brown, Bob Collins, Colston, Conroy, Cooney, Evans, Faulkner, Harradine, Lundy, Margetts, Neal, Ray, Reynolds, Schacht, Sherry and Tambling The committee met at 9.36 a.m. ACTING CHAIR (Senator Murray)—I declare open this public meeting of the Senate Finance and Public Administration Legislation Committee. We are dealing with the supplementary hearings of the 1996-97 additional estimates and certain specified matters of which notice was given as required by standing order 26(10). The committee will be commencing with the matters listed under the Department of the Senate, followed by the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet, the Department of Administrative Services and, finally, the Department of Finance. DEPARTMENT OF THE SENATE Proposed expenditure, $20,000 (Document C). In Attendance Senator the Hon. Margaret Reid, President of the Senate Department of the Senate— Mr Harry Evans, Clerk of the Senate Ms Anne Lynch, Deputy Clerk of the Senate Mr Cleaver Elliott, Clerk Assistant (Committees) Dr Rosemary Laing, Clerk Assistant (Procedure) Mr Peter O’Keeffe, Clerk Assistant (Corporate Management) Mr John Vander Wyk, Clerk Assistant (Table) Mr Robert Allison, Usher of the Black Rod Mr Graeme Nankervis, Director, Financial Management Ms Gabrielle Avery, Acting Director, Human Resource Management Department of Finance— Mr Brian Cooney, Chief Finance Officer Mr John Forsey, Senior Finance Officer Mr Chris James, Senior Finance Officer Mr Greg Shales, Finance Officer FINANCE AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION F&PA 2 SENATE—Legislation Thursday, 8 May 1997 [9.37 a.m.] Program 1—Clerk’s Office ACTING CHAIR—I welcome the President of the Senate, Senator Margaret Reid. Is there anything you wish to say by way of opening remarks? The PRESIDENT—No, Mr Chairman. CHAIR—Is there anything anyone else at the table wishes to say by way of opening remarks? Mr Evans—No, Mr Chairman. CHAIR—I think it would be appropriate to move to Senator Ray. Senator ROBERT RAY—Madam President, we have been over the issue of supplementa- tion for extra sitting days, even yesterday, although we will not go into the content of those discussions, and staffing appropriation. For the public record, would you like to state your view on extra sitting days and the issue of supplementation? The PRESIDENT—My view is that for the extra odd day, half day or late sitting, it is a matter that the Senate can probably accommodate. Any sittings in the nature of an extra week or what we understand to be a week of sittings I believe should be supplemented. That should be agreed to and not have to be argued about every time it comes up. It just should be understood that the money is paid. Senator ROBERT RAY—So you would like to see an agreement with the Department of Finance, probably brokered by the Leader of the Government in the Senate as the appropriate person, that we do not have to argue it each time but, like many other things in government, it is an automatic tick by Finance when it comes to supplementation? The PRESIDENT—It is my view that it should be agreed by the Leader of the Government in the Senate and the Minister for Finance that, whenever the government asks for an extra week or more than one week, it is automatically paid. Senator WATSON—There have been some suggestions of restructuring of the services that are provided to senators and members. Various alternatives of groupings have been mooted. Can you outline any developments in that area? The PRESIDENT—There has been a report prepared by the heads of the five parliamentary departments, which was tabled in the Senate on 18 March. That was available for public comment. Senators and members were invited to write to the Presiding Officers with any comments they had on the proposal within that, which was substantially to restructure the de- partments into two departments based on the two chambers. The Standing Committee on Appropriations and Staffing is now conducting an inquiry into that and the dates for the public hearings are set. We have had, I think, 11 submissions relating to the proposal. The document which was tabled was a document for discussion, not a fixed position of the Presiding Officers, and I think the next thing that will happen after that will be the report from the Appropriations and Staffing Committee to the Senate. Senator WATSON—Could I be advised what was the basis of the division of the activities into two? There are certain facilities such as the Library and others that may well be better administered under a single authority in terms of management structure rather than— The PRESIDENT—You are welcome to read the report that was tabled. They are issues which will come before the Appropriations and Staffing Committee. It is not a report of the Presiding Officers. It is not a report that I argue is something that we are insisting upon or suggesting. In fact, the submissions to the Appropriations and Staffing Committee, which are FINANCE AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION Thursday, 8 May 1997 SENATE—Legislation F&PA 3 public as from yesterday, I think, generally do not support the two concept. Some suggest one, some suggest three. So it is a matter that is before the Appropriations and Staffing Committee. I am not presenting any fixed view on it at all. The next document will be the report of that committee to the Senate. Senator WATSON—What would be the likely employment consequences of each of the alternatives? The PRESIDENT—There are some losses of jobs in some areas. There are some areas where I think generally people would agree it is essential that they should be amalgamated and done more efficiently. There are other things we want to do. There are things we want to do with the extra money that will flow from an amalgamation. Senator WATSON—Could you mention those extra things to the committee? The PRESIDENT—The Internet is something that a lot of senators want. There are areas within security. There are a lot of things within the building, certainly with respect to services and upgrading of the things that senators and members have at the present time. A lot of the equipment is getting to an age where it will need to be replaced. Some people still want extra newspapers. Senator ROBERT RAY—And books. The PRESIDENT—Yes, and books. Senator LUNDY—With respect to the report on parliamentary restructuring that has been tabled, who determined within the department that the two-department concept should receive the emphasis that it did in that report? The PRESIDENT—That was a report prepared by the four heads of the five departments, and that is one option. Senator LUNDY—Why weren’t other options canvassed with the same degree of emphasis, given that it was only a discussion paper? The PRESIDENT—Mr Evans, do you want to say something about that since you were one of the ones involved in preparing the document? Mr Evans—The Presiding Officers back in August last year asked for papers from the departments on options. Those papers went to the Presiding Officers. The paper which this department provided to the President is in the submission of this department to the appropriations and staffing committee which has now been published, so that is available. In those papers options were canvassed, and the option which was I suppose most frequently mentioned in the papers was the two-department option and the Presiding Officers decided to have a report prepared on that option. The PRESIDENT—My view is that the two chamber departments have to be the most important departments in the building. The rest are here to service the parliament. The chambers are the reason that the place exists. To have a structure which has them hanging off the end of something else personally I regard as unsatisfactory. The chamber departments are the reason it is all here. The rest of the departments are there servicing the senators and members and providing the mechanism to enable the parliament to function. Senator LUNDY—Are you contemplating any outsourcing of any services contained within the structure currently under review? The PRESIDENT—If that ever came about, it is well ahead of where we are at at the present time. You have to determine first how the place will be structured and how it will run FINANCE AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION F&PA 4 SENATE—Legislation Thursday, 8 May 1997 before you could contemplate looking at that. There is nothing particularly in mind. Certainly, nothing is being looked at at present, but there may well be things that could be. Senator LUNDY—In terms of any potential outsourcing, it is not likely to occur within the next financial year, based on the comments you have just made? The PRESIDENT—I can’t say that it wouldn’t because I don’t know of anything that we are thinking about.
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