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MSS 179 Robert H. Richards, Jr., Delaware oral history collection, Special Collections, University of Delaware Library, Newark, Delaware

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A note about transcriptions:

Of the original 252 audio-recordings in this collection, 212 of these tapes were transcribed around the time of the original recordings (between 1966 and 1978). In 2012, Cabbage Tree Solutions was contracted to create transcriptions for the remaining tapes. Corrections to and clarifications for all transcriptions are welcome, especially for names and places. Please contact Special Collections, University of Delaware Library, for questions. [email protected] l i ,

TRANSCRIBED INTERVIEW WITH Dominick DiSabatino 1307 N. Bancroft Parkway Wilmington, Delaware

Interviewed by Francis J. Fierro 1967 Transcribed by Irene H. Long June, 1969 (1)

Let's try it now. All right, I think we got it now. Well, uh •••• talking a little bit about a, a the time that we spent in Italy prior to our coming here, uh, naturally my daddy and my two brothers were involved in construction, ah, which a, a, would ta.ke us from one project to another along the peninsula, starting from the southern point of Italy, such below, such as be­ low Abruzzi - Pescara, Castellammare. And then work our way up and a, at the time they were building a station houses, a, bridges, a, tunnels, and a, a the likes of that. And a, the, the last job a that a he worked on a, Pop and a my, my brothers a were up in a, in a Varzo, a right on the Swiss border where they were construction· of the a tunnel, a the Simplon Tunnel. And a this was back in 19 ••••• 04 or 05, along a those, those years. And about 1905, a then a the family had to move back to our home town. Was there any particular reason.for that a ••••• ? No, a the reason was this - that my brother, there was a, a serious reason in a sense. My brother, a, was taken ill, my oldest brother Arthur, and a, a they a the doctors a diagnosed the case a real wrong. He thought maybe he had con- •••. gotten a severe cold in one night and he thought maybe he had T.B. or what have you. And.a,.and so, he a the doctor advised the family to move back to the a, to our home town which was in Sant' Omero, a, in Abruzzi, Provincia reramo, Abruzzi, which is the center part of the, of the peninsula. Yes, this is more on the Adriatic coast? It's on the Adriatic coast, a, absolutely, just about ten miles from the sea, from the Adriatic Sea. So, so Daddy, a, having been advised a by the doctor we moved. The whole family (2 ) took off, packed up, and, of course the tunnel was very much com­ pleted at the time so a he, the job would have been finished anyway. And so we a, they decided to go back to the home town. And when he got there, when my brother got back into our hometown, a the doctor in town discovered that he had developed an abcess under his, under his arm, right under the right arm. A.'Yld, uh, it required an, a, operation.rhey lanced it open, opened one arm, and that was the substance of the whole sickness which wasn't serious at all; but it sort of incapacitated him for a little while. You know" he wasn't able. And in the meantime he was called in, into the Italian army for examination to serve, you know", to serve the army because over there it was a compulsory_ They used to have to serve three years. Well, when my brother Arthur went to 'reramo, which was the, a, the cap--, the capitol where they were, you would be examined and a, and a, they didn't take him at that time; but they postponed him for the following year. A, he still have to serve, but he says, "You're not eligible to serve now, but you got to come back a year from now." Well, course, Arthur wasn't too reluctant to serve the army. He, a, as you know that's three years of a •••• and then he said, "Pop, I'm going to my - going to America." "Well," he says, 1'm" - my pop says, "NO, you're not going. n rvIy brother Clarence he said the same thing. tlWell, we're going to go." So Daddy said, "Well, a •••• n He had heard of many cases where the sons and children of other families had migrated here, and for some reason they got, they forgot their parents. rhey forgot their families and lost in a sense, so to speak. And Pop didn't believe in that. He said, tlNo, ••• a ••• if you two want to go then I'll have to go with you." And the three of them, the three of them came over. This was in 1906. And a •••• oh ••• a •• they got here then. They first arrived in New York. May I ask you some questions here now? Yeh, yeh. Did they have any relatives or close friends in the United States at that time? No relatives, but they had friends. They had some people of our, of our ••••• Sant' Omero? Sant' Omero? Same hometown that were in New York. Yes. Now, there was a, a, at a, DiLaurentis - by the way he lived here for a little while. This DiLaurentis was a, a, a, lady's tailor. He was a good one. Yes. And he was here. He was working in his own capacity. And naturally a when he got to New York, that was one of the first ••• a ••• person that Daddy and my brothers would visit. And they did. Well, when they got in New York, then ••••• May I ask you something else here? Sure. In so far as their coming to the United States •••• Yeh. We know it ended in New York, but when they left t'rom

Sant t Omero, where did they go exactly, uh ••••• ? Well, uh •••••• What was their route? Yeh, well the route ••••• TO eatch the ship? Was this way. They, they went to Naples. I see. And then in Naples they got a - I forgot which liner they eame over. (4)

Was it an Italian ship they came over on? Nuhhhhhhhh •••••• I don't think so, but it was a •••• I remem­ ber mine, but - because I came ten months later; but I don't remember their particular, a the particular boat they came on. I know they took them a long time. Took them about nineteen days to get across. HOw did they get to Naples? Did they go by train or •••• Oh by ••••• Naples, they went by train. NOW, where did they catch the train? Well, the train, they'd had to go to Teramo. To Teramo? And then from Teramo they'd get a train that would go to Naples. No! I'm, I'm wrong. Yeh, that - no. That wasn't~ Teramo. Is there a ••••• What's the line? Let's see. I was thinking about a town ••••• Teramo, no. But no, Piacenza is in northern Italy., No, I think, I think that the train that they got must. have been in Teramo and they went to Foggia and from Foggia they cut across to a, to Naples. How far is Teramo from Santa Omero, do you have any idea? Well, Teramo from Sant' Omero would be, say approximately fifteen-twenty miles. Did they walk there from Santi Omero or take a horse and buggy? Well, uh, those days a, course you didn't have a what you would call a, a automobile transportation, you didn't:a, you had a horses. Yes. A, hire buggy or have somebody take 'em. Yes. We didn't have horses ourselves. Yes. Or they would go same as a stagecoach, you know, "la posta." Yes. They would tr.avel by "posta" too. O.K. That was one of the things because we used, we had stagecoaches in Italy same a.s they have them here, I mean. Yes. I remember them in northern Italy the, a, stagecoaches used to come down from Switzerland, down into Italy, down to Vasto, Domodossia, and so on. It was the same system. Yes. That we used here in the Olden Days and so ••• a ••• that's the way they, they went to Naples. And Naples then they got, they embarked on the ship. And I, I don't recall the name of their ship, but I do recall mine. And then once they got locate, I mean they got, they, they stayed New York a little while, and Pop didn't, didn't couldn't see the a, couldn't see New York. He thought it was too big of a city and he was afraid he'd lose control of his ••• children. You, know how it is in a big city and so they, they a tried Philadelphia. They came over to Philadelphia and.they looked around Philadelphia. And, and that.didn't suit him, but he had a couple of friends here, ah, that were in the business a in the ••• in the masor..ry business, in the trade so to speak, that they were interested in. And they came here to Wilmington and ••••• he liked itl He decided that he should stay here. That this would be small community; that he could have a better chance to control the family and so on. And one of the first (6) jobs hat Pop got here in, in Wilmington was - he worked with the Telephone Company uh •••• to tell the truth he got a job with Telephone Company through John Lemon. John Lemon, those days, - he was one of these types that perphaps ••• a •• • was inclined to do that, give you that sort of service for a little a ••• you know ••• little reward or little money. Did this John Lemon have another name besides John Lemon? Uh ••••• Pedelicchio. Yes, that's what ••••• this is the same one? Same one. Yes. Well, John Lemon was a ••••• Pedelicchio was his name. He was quite a, he was quite a ••• a ••• person in a sense. He was always engaged in this sort of thing. He wouldn't work hard. And a so a •••• then, then they started to work for a other people. That would be a job here and a job there and so on. They worked for a, the then Hamil.ton and Company who was a, a, which is Sparks and Company now. They worked, the brothers did, they worked for them. They worked for other places such as aPen1nsula Cut Stone, in those days was a firm and about ••••• While they were ''forking in Wilmington, Pop was already send.ing money home to make a, in preparation for the whole family to come over. Course he, he wasn't sending money be­ cause we needed money because we, we were not •••••• a fairly good you know standing over there. And so a ••• ten months after that-a, they, they came in April and in December the, the rest of the family came: my mother; myself; and my sisters, Splendora; my brother Paul.

And, and vle, we were the other three that came with mother and one little girl Clelia, her name was. She died a, a, by the way we a, when we were in, when we were to come over, that is the balance of (7) us, a ••• when we arrived in, in Naples we were to come over on at on a Italian liner. A, and as it were, the a, the crew went on a strike coming back from New York to Naples. The crew went on a strike and we were st •••• stuck in Naples, waiting to a make a change. We had to make a change on another liner. And we finally made arrangements with the Cedric White .Star Line, the White Star Line;. and we oame over on a Cedric. What's a ••••••• What at what a flag was that under? That's the British. British? That was an English, it was an English boat.. It Was a very good voyage. We came over in about t.en days and about eleven nights. And a on the eleventh, in the morning we arrived. in New York. What were. accommodations like.abpard this ship? Oh, they. were wonderful. It was a wonder.ful. We had a - to tell you the truth we had a, we had a ••• a •• compartment such as a, a suite right now over. there. This was in 1906?

Yeh, nineteen oh - well ~h1s was 1n December of 1906.

Uh huh. Yeh. What would that be comparable a in classes a to a today's a travel? Well, that was a, that was a •••• I know there's a.difference in them. At that time they had, they used to call, they had the first, second, and third class. Right. And we were, we were travel1ng the second class, see. (8)

So that'd be comparable to the cabin class. Yeh, well, we were like mother, myself, my sister Splen, and Paul, and this little Clelia. We were a little family that we got a compartment. Yes. To take care just of our own little family • . Yes, yea, that's fine. But a to go back now - no, no, I don't smoke. Do you mind if I do? No, you, no. To go back to this story of a Naples. It so happened that, that a while we were in Naples waiting, as I said, you, you sort of run away from this thing. I don't care how ---- you sort of run away from this thing but a while we were in Naples, a this little .sister Clelia, a she took sick in Naples while we were waiting for this a new boat. We, we were staying at the hotel a right down there by the wharf', right down where all the liners came in. And this little girl got the measles, my sister. Yes. And while she got the measles, we were, she was being a cared for by a doctor that a tried to get her well and and a so a the day came that we were to embark a on the Cedric White Star Line. The girl was already better, see. And we passed, I mean a, you go through an examination same as you would and a she was fine. We got on board and on our way over, she took a relapse, took.sick again and she was quarantined, a the whole family was on quarantine. A, I was the old­ est one and I hated like the dickens to be quarantined. To me it was like being in jail. Yes. However, if I get a chance, r'd sneak out during the day, you know. Christmas day we were on, on our way across on Christ- (9) mas day because we embarked on the nineteenth. Oh. And we arrived here the last day ,of the year, so Christ­ mas day we were on a high seas in the ocean. And a I snuck away from Mother and everybody else (chuckles) because there was all that, was all that commotion going on. Lot and a playing games and a ••••••• Celebration, yes. I snuck away and they were chasing me all day on board, and I used to •••••. But at any rate when we arrived in New york ••••• Did the ship make.any stops at any other ports from Naples to New York? No, no, we came straight across. Came straight across. Ten days and eleven nights. And we arrived early in the morning in New York of the, of the last day of the year. And so be­ cause it was the last dayot the year and because the following day was New Year's, we had to stay on board the ship till after New Year's day. See, so this was the first" New Year'.. on the. first. We disem­ barked on the second. Well, now, on our way out going through the a, you know the, the routine of coming out when you go through all sorts of inspection, a I'm walking ahead with my sister Splen and my brother Paul and, she's carrying the little girl. This little girl was sick. She was only about, not quite two years ald. I'm walking ahead and a when I turn around, I don't see my mother. I says, "What happened?" So we started walk back and here they are. They had put her into a, a cage like. And I says., "What happened, Mother?" She said, "Well, I don't know. Here they marked me all up." I said, "And I don't know just what the story is." And we were, we were placed into •••••• an area where there're bunks and what have you, awaiting the outcome of what would happen. And we later learned that she a, the reason (10) they had, they had chalked her and marked her. off was on account of the little girl having had measles and she relapsed. She was getting a fever and so, a they, they, they had to quarantine Mother and the child. Did they quarantine the rest of you? No, they latus, for two or three days we were held at Ellis Island. We were held there just like in captivity. You a •••••• Yes. So to speak. And Mother had already been taken out on the ••••• you know, out on the - for, for quarantine. And in the meantime Father was coming over to New York from Wilmington a every day to see what he could do. Well, he finally took me out first. He was able to take me out. He had to appear, like he'd go into a court, you know case, and a they finally ••• a ••• released me first. And I, and they took me to this family in New York in Bleaker Street, downtown a New York ••• a ••• and. there after •••• I was taken out the other two ••• a ••• were released a few days after I was •••• I was there about a week until the other two, my sister .Splen and my brother Paul were released. And after they got released ••• then •• a they took took us to Wilmington because we already had a house ••• a ••• on Fourth Street, 1806 West Fourth Street. That would be where, between Lincoln and Scott? That's where Jenny Corletto is now. Oh, yeh.

That t s the house we lived in.

I remember the big old house there before she •••• Well, he got a h •••• that was ••• a they had a balcony on the second floor. Yes. Well, it was •••• a ••• and this house was owned, owned (11) by a Salvatore Verderamo. Well, it would be - you wouldn't know him. I don't remember him at all. But it was the Verderamo family ••• a ••• you know, one of the ones that you might know now is a •••• Louis Valeri's wife Fanny. You know that live on Tenth street down near St. Anthony's. Ummmmmmmm, I, I can't place them. Well, at any rate, this ••• a ••• Verderamo, the Verderamo's those days they were in the ••• um •••• he owned this house. And he, and he was in the, in the beer business. He was, he had a bottling - those days they used to bottle their own beer, you know. They'd, they'd buy it in kegs and then they'd bottle it and then they'd sell it. Uh huh. Tl1at was the business those days •. They used to b •••• It's not like now, the breweries would put out. Those days they would ••• a ••• bottle it, would purchase the beer from a, from the brewery and take it. to his department. Then bottle it and then they would sell the bottle. So he was in this business and he e.wned this house and Father rented that house from him. And that's where we moved to ••• a ••• about oh I think it was around the •• a •• latter part of January or the, or February that ••• a •• the whole family got re­ united. Mother ••• a ••• was quarantined for over thirty days. That was it. And a, and we were sort of going out to a other homes that a - friends of Pop's that a he had made, you know, take care of us. This was in New York City? This is in Wilmington. Oh. Yeh. We came here. We came here about, as I say, we we out family came here about the, about the first part of F.ebruary (12)

the latter part of ••• a •• yesl It was about the f ••• And as it werewhe~ when we all got reunited - Mother and my sister from ••• and we were all together, this sister of mine, she develope4the a ••• - they oalled it diphtheria in those days - I;don't knew what it was now, what you would oall it today. Sort of a ••• a ••• would strangle yeu or, you know, choke you and they oall it diphtheria those days. 1 don't know what they oall it now. They still oall it the same. I suppose it would be the same thing. Well, anyway she died. That was the first experienoe we had. After moving here the first month', we lost this little sister. So we buried her and ••• and ••• and that was the, the extent to that ••• a ••• of ooming here. And in the meantime Father and, and my, my ••• my father and my two brothers were working as a journeymen at various jobs and we lived in this house ••• a •• nineteen seven, on about a year. Just not quite a,year and for some reason ••• a ••• Pop got into some sort of an, a argument with the, the owner, this Salvatore ••• a ••• Verderamo. He was trying to take advantage of him in a way. Either he jaoked up the rent or what have you and we moved out of there. And, and we went to 1731 West Fifth Street, a ••• one of those houses. You'd probably would, you'd know ••• They're between Union and Linooln! It's between Soott and duPont. Oh, be ••• oh y.'s, yes. Yeh. O.K. But a, in the meantime, he purohased a lot down the corner, Fifth and a, Fifth and Lincoln, a house where we used to live. And a, in about a year or so ••• a ••• we lived at 1731 for about a year or so and then he built his own house. (13)

What was Wilmington like during this or that particu­ lar area at that time?

Well it, it Wilmington at that time that par~icular area, there were a lot of empty lots. For instance all that area ••• a ••• along Lincoln Street a down to Union Street were all vacapt lots. I remember there used to be cat- tails. These a •••• Yes, around swamps. Yeh, and there were swamps in there. You could hear a the frogs and the crickets and all that just this time of year parti­ cularly. It was all empty. Ah, and that really was about our first v$nture of, of taking this lot - it was, it was almost a swamp - and we built the house on it. We were ••• we pioneered this big house, a three story house, and a, a lot of people at the time wondered a how Pop was really takin' such a, you know, such a venture because the Italians those days were, you know, they were kind of scared. And they weren't makin' a lot of money either. But because Pop and the two brothers and they were together and they were makin' •••• a. •••• Well, at that time they were making about fifty five cents an hour. And fifty five cents an hour ••• is equivalent to •••• they used to work ten, twelve hours a day. There wasn't, a, it's not like it is now, it's eight hours. Those days they'd go to work ••• a ••• almost at sunrise and they'd, they'd quit •••• When it gets dark. When they get dark, when it gets dark. And so they'd used to average pretty - well, then you take three people working and three people bringing home pay ••• a ••• and the cost of living was, was very - gosh, you could a, you could buy so much with so little. So they, they - Pop took an adventure. He says, "I ••• " - build his own house. And that was a ••• a Fifth and Lincoln. In the meantime ••• a ••• they were looking forward to, you know, st ••• get st ••• started (14) in business for himself. Well, while my two brothers were, were working outside for other companies, uh, depending who they'd be working for, there'd be a lot of jobs. They •••• as much worked down in, in Cambridge and various places. My daddy ••• um ••• decided that he should start in business. Well, he did start. A••• at first he ventured with a couple of friends, was a old man SanCantera and a another man called Pasquale Cedi. And you wouldn't know the people but the families are still here. And they sort of tried a •••• part- nership for •••• It didn't last long, couple, two, three months. And a Pop oouldn't see ••• a ••• a ••• the future and so he started for himself and a, 'Um :riret of all ••• a ••• there was a house ••• a ••• old man Gingabach (?) wanted to build at Fourth and, a Fourth and a, and duPont, across from Pichotti's. Yeh. The other side, that three story house.

Yes t I •••• Well, because we were renting from this a ••• a ••• Gingabach ••• a ••• he got the chance to seoure this contract, see. Well, the contract those days wasn't difficult because all you had to do was to ••• a ••• he would say, "Well, I'll pay you 'X' dollars :ror, to lay my bricks." Really they'd pay us three dollars a thousand to lay bricks. Well, "It's all right. It's a start." So Pop took this house. And I remember the brothers used to help. I was going to school and a after sohool, you know, after school hours I'd run down there and, you know, as a boy - I was close to about thirteen at the time - and a, I was •••• I had already pioked up the language and I was going to sohool at St. Thomas·s. And he'd use me more or less as a his interpreter. Yes. Had you had. any eduoation in Italy before you came here? (15)

Yes. How much was that? I had had the elementary grades in the Italian schools. Was that the first through, or five? Which would a, which WGuld a "terza classen which would be before, before a junior high here, at that time I left there. Yes. I was twelve going on thirteen so I had had years, I had had - I had all the schooling that was available in, in our own home town. Right. While we were traveling, I could do all right; but when you'd get back to the small town, schools go so high and then you got a ••••• You either have to tr ••••• Go out some place •••• Terminate your education or go somewhere else. Or go out and ••• a ••• those days a ••• not too many people ••• a ••• a ••• completed a lot of schooling. They ••• a ••• as it were it was •••• The average •••• The average didn't •••• Seemed to be about three years. Right. Yes. About two or three years and than a ••• the town didn't have any more. Right. you'd reach a certain level. But I had gone through the schools, the a sohools that were available. And then I was being (16) tutored by a private teacher. He was a retired ••• a ••• a ••• officer of the army, and he had a private school. Ah ••• his name was Taleto Tanzi, very good, a good man - stern, too, severe teacher. And that, and that I was going to school with him when I left there. I was still going to school. But when I came here ••• a ••• naturally I had to start from the, from the bottom, from the ••• , from kind •••• kindergarten so to speak, from the first grade and so on. Until you can grasp the language and get the a ••• customs - how you a study and so on, but it didn't take me very leng before I, I was getting along real, real good. A ••• in fact, a ••• it would be just like a surprise. They'd see me in this •••• baby room, you s •••• so called baby room this year, and in next year or so I'd be right up there with the •••• because all I needed was the language because the rest I had had in, in, in an Italian way. And so I didn't have too much difficulty to ferge ahead. But to go baok to that. Then, then Pep started to get these contracts when we did that job there, Fourth and duPont for Gld man Glngabach. It was Q.uite a, a, an impressive building of the time, standing there by itself. Then we got a job, got a job for Docksdigger. Docksdigger was the man that owned the old Garrett Theater in town. He, he was the eld man. They used to bring in these vaudevilles and these shows into town at the time. Yes. So Docksd.igger was ••• a ••• a ••• outstanding ••• a ••• figure those days, person in this town those days. When you spoke of Dooksdigger •••• a ••• the •••• the shows they use to run, all that. He was •••••• Where did he have his theater by the way? Ah ••• right there Ninth and Market. Ninth and Market? Right, right, right. Right between, I think right (17) there where the, where they built the W1lmington Savings Fund. I see. Right below there. That was the Dooksdigger Theater. And so that' s the way the things mult1ply. We did. the Job for Dooksdigger and it was ••• a ••• quite a ••• &n advertisement, you know. And a ••• you ••• you beoame more or less, people come to you and they they say, "Well, you do this and well, you do that and so on." And we got to doing work for the a ••• a ••• Mr. Melvin ••• a ••• Jake Melvin and his brother. They were building a lot of homes on the East Side, on Ninth Street, on Vandever Avenue, various places •. And they oome after us and we started to do work for them. And so from there on you know how it is. It •••• a ••• you become in demand and a, and now the rest of it is really history because a everybody knows what we have been doing. And, and but that's the beginning of our ••••• This is how the company itself started and how it's grown. Yeh, and how it started and I was his interpreter. Yes. And my, the brothers in the mean, meantime were work1ng as journeymen in order to ••• a ••• keep the, you know, ••• if ••• while you're working we're bringing money in and, and you're going out to try to •••• Yes. So you see, there, there wasn't enough for the, for all of us to be together. But there was enough for Pop to get started with and then, too, we had some cousins Qf - Father had some cousins that migrated over, too, after we come over. And they started work with us too, you see, So it was almost a, a family affair. Yes. The way it all started. And that's how we mult1plied. (18)

A••• were there many other Italian oontraotors in Wil­ mington during that time? No ••• ah ••• the ••• Italian ••• a... Put it this way, the Italian tradesman ••• a ••• the good trades.men in the stone business, they, they didn't have any diffioulty getting work. But nobody had as in business, a ••• theywere all, there were quite a. few masons; but they were all working for a, for a, other firms such as - not of Italian names - like Sparks and like a ••• there were others ••• a ••• the Lindermans and a •••• George Shawe ••• and ••• a ••• Hamilton was the prinoiple one in this town. So there were seTeral but not of Italian -. Well, we started the first, we were the first Italian people in Wilmington to start in this ••• a... Now, old Mr. Fidance, e>ld Mr. Nioholas Fidance, he was not a contractoJ', but he started to build homes. He was building these little homee such as he built on a ••• Sixth, Seventh, Scott and sO·;Qn. Yes. He was, he was, he, he started building but he was not a oontractor. He was just doing this on bis ewn. Yes. He'd build a few houses. And he didn't build them to sell either. They were all rentals. I see. And he'd use a - not te say anything to discredit Mr. Fidanoe - but he used very orude methods. He used to get old lumber and olean the nails and he used' to use railroad ties for .101ce and things 1n that, you know. Yes. It's peculiar but after.all he was, he put up quite a lot of houses. He put up all those houses on Sixth Street, on Lin­ ooln Street ••• a ••• on Seventh Street, all those houses. (19)

Yes, I remember those, too. But, of course., that ••• they ••• but they were not ••• 1n ••• 1n ••• a •• not contracted. So he bu1lt those h1mself? He bu11t for h1mself to - for rental. He Just d1d for rental, yes. Yes, he would buy th1s salvage mater1al and he, he would, he had a land out here in Silverbrook that he used to dig bank sand out of. He ••••• Dh huh. rhis real red bank clay. Yes. And in fact we layed some bricks for him those days. And I used to work on the wall. I used to say to myself, Itlf the Lord can only help me to get away from this sort ot •• • way of l1fe," because you use th1s mortar with heavy clay like. Oh, it was terrible. (chuckles) Yes. When you go home at nights, you really felt the, the effects of that day's labor. And, too, a ••• a ••• and then we started te really ••• a •• as we were dOing this work for people - lay bricks by the thousand and so on - I, in the meantime, was going to a ••• a ••• school. You know, ••• a ••• n1ght school ••• and ••• a ••• a ••• and I was taking a architectural ••• a ••• with a, a Mr. Mammett, 0.8. Hammett. He had a school, a private school, Eighth and-Market. And a ... a ••• while he a ••• at night - this was all night school because during the day I'd work on the wall. Dh huh. And then after that he didn't have too much more to give me, to teach me and he told me one day, he says, "Dominick, (20)

I don't have too much to offer you." He used to give me plates. He used, he used to give me work that I. would have to copy in a sense. He wa.s more of an artist. He was one of these a types of a teaoher that could do charooal work and painting and stuff like that. But he was the only one available to get a knowledge of ar­ ohitecture of drawing and what not those days. And so I'd go to him. Unless. you were prepared for college, then it'd be different. Yes. Then you'd go to Penn or some other sohool. Now you did finish high sohoOlthough, did you not? Huh? You did go on to high school, didn't you? Oh no, I went, I went to the, I finished the ..... well, those days the grammar grades, ready for high school and I didn't go to high school. Ohhhh. Beoause I was working on the wall. Yes. I was helping Dad for hiS, in his business life. You see I, I had all that to do because my brothers worked. Yes. Then ••••• along with that I was going to night school to understand drawings, to get the idea on how you estimate, how you get your cubic yard of cement, how you get your stone, how many - how you count your bricks and so on. I was getting all that on, on apare time so to speak. Yes. Well, to go back to Mr. Hammett, my teacher, one day he, he a, he told me, he said, "Look a ••• a ••• Dominick, I don't have muoh more to offer you," he says. "But I have an opportunity for (21) you if you'd like to take it up." I said, "What is it?" He said, "Yes." He said, "You could go a ••• to work for Mr. Thompson." John T. Thompson, he was an architect. He was a,one of the leading ar­ chitect those days. A, in fact, he, he be •••• hewas ••• a ••• the as­ sociate architect for the present court house. When they tore down the old court house, he was the architect, an assooiate architect, with a New York ••• a ••• architectural firm that built the court house. Well, I, I went to work for them because Mr. Hammett said, "you - they were looking for someone like you. If you'd like to go, I'll send you." I said, "Oh, sure.'1 And so then I took, took off. I took a leave of absence from the, from the - Pop, from the brick­ laying business. And in the meantime my brothers were back in the, in the, in the, in the business with Pop. And I was taking archi­ tecture for, with John D. Thompson, Jr. And ••• but something happened that a ••• unfortunately I had to give that up. And that was this - that a one day this John, this J.lr. Thompson came in the office and he was in the habit of taking a (chuckles) an extra drink and it was lunch time. And uh, er, he came in the, and he spoke to Miss Rudolph. Miss,Rudolph was the bookkeeper in charge of the office. Well, she was the only lady there. Oh, there were about a four or five of us working in the, in the architectural room. I was an apprentice arch1tec~ a I wasn't really an architect. And I'm dOing good work and I like it. My boss at the time was Harry Bternfeltand uh, he was quite a national figure as an architect. He a, a, in fact, I think he's still living. He was one of the main teachers in archi­ tecture at the University of Pennsylvania. And he was my boss in John D. Thompson Junior's office. He was a sort of a frail looking fellew, you know. He wasn't a sturdy or husky or anything and he •••• I used to take him out for practioe every, every a after •••• the day's work, wetd go out here by the, by the park right there past,., (22)

Washington Street Bridge on that park there. Yes. And exeroise him with football. He'd kiok the foot­ ball and I'd chase it for him. But he was quite a national figure. So •••• but to go baok to the story. ltd wGrked there for quite a few mont hs and I was getting along fine. And I was we~l:+liked. A so this Mr. Thompson comes in and he had had a couple extra drinks and he told Miss Rudolph that I should go down to a Bacons. This Bacon was a restaurant down on Market Street 'bout a, a block or two below where we, we were in the old Ford Building, which is now, which is now the a, the a, the a, the Wilmington, the Wilmington - no the Ford Building is now the Farmers Bank Building - the old Ford Building. Yes. The Farmers Bank just built a new building there. Well, we, we had an office there on the eighth flo~r. And my work was a, was taking up drawing and what have you. I used to . have charge of the blue prints. A, those days we used to do blue prints with frames, push them out the window, you know, out on the roof and bring them in. It's not like now - we used to do it by sunshine. Uh huh. And uh, but to make the story short, he oame in and he told Miss Rudolph to send me down to Bacons to bring up a tray for his lunch. Well, I was sort of a, I was one of these type boy I used to dress well. I used to be (ohuckles) I didn't like the idea. I said, "Miss Rudolph, I don't think that I should do that. That is something that it's not in my line of duty." l' says, "11m not disobedient and I don't like to say no but 1 •••• 1 don't think it's altogether right that I should do this work." I, I says, "I'll do any kind of work that pertains to drawing or delivering of drawings or a, but I, I oertainly don't like, I don't like the idea of going down there." Yes. Well, I - he got peeved and a she, she went baok to tell him. She was the, the 1n~etween. So she went baok and tried to oonvinoe as to do. Well, he, he replied to the negative. He insisted that I should do it. Well, when. when he said that, I just ha.d a T-square, a triangle, a penoil and a drawing set. I just folded up a.ll the things and I started out to the, the eleva.­ tors. And leaving and I didn't even say yes or no because, you know, I was sorry this had-to do it the way I had to do it but ••• a ••• a it-just the way it oaught me. And she ohased after me. She got me. She chased after me as far as the, the elevator and she said, "Come on back, you're foolish boy." I says, "Miss Rudolph,"

I says, "It's i~posslble." I said, ."1 made this move and a ••• and if I don't go through with it now, it will never be the same." I says, "I'm sorry but I oan't, can't oome baok." Well, I quit. I went into the - for good- into the oonstruotion with Pop and the' rest of us. And a that was the end of the aroh1teotura1 what have you. But then at n1ght t1me, um, I was a after that we opened an offioe a - f1rst we used to have at home, r1ght there Fifth and, F1fth and Linooln on the, on the, 1n the house and then we opened an office at 415 Linooln, you know, where Lou1e the butcher is. Yes. We opened an office there. Th1s was about 1916 or - about'17. We opened an office there •. Ah, about 1916, yeh. Pr10r to opening an off1ce I was going to school-night school, taking up bookkeep1ng ••• a ••• secretarial course. Which school was this? I went to Beacoms. And a my teaoher at the time was (24)

Mr. Thompson, who later ••• a ••• opened a school on Wash1ngton Street, the Thompsons, remember? Bus1ness School, yes. Well, Mr. Thompson was my, was my, my teacher. Were there many a Ita11ans or people or Ita11an ex­ tract10n at a ••••• At th1s school? Yes. Not many. A••• how were you treated as an Ita11an? Did anybody ever give you any d1fficulty? Well, when I, I got along swell. Now I got along very swell, but a, a prior to that time, pr10r to th1s t1me - well, of course this was '17. From 1908 go1ng up-to '17 t1mes were chang1ng all the wh1le a ••• 1f you were to tell all the story that you exper1- enced, 1t would take ••• a ••• a tremendous a t1me and a lot of time and 1t would make a, make a tlremendous book because I remember a lot of th1ngs that took place and that happened, you know, the way Italians used to be treated and all that ••• a ••• not too good. The the beg1nn1ng here was rough. r remember when I was go1ng to school at St. Thomas's and I used to come up F1fth Street a ••• and past~ Number 21 School, wh1ch was the colored school at the t1me. Yes. To go to my house which was 1731 West F1fth Street, not only a halt a block, even the-Negroes would, would m1streat the, the so-called Ita11ans those days. You had to experience that kind of sland of "Guinea," "Dago," and what have you. It d1dn't make sense. It d1dn't make sense. And I don't know why. Course I ••• a ••• our family was altogether d1fferent. We had, we had, we had a tre­ mendous good up-br1ng1ng, you know, hav1ng been 1n the business 11fe (25) for - the other side and then the waY we come over here. I suppose that a the, the poor laboring class of Italian that came here early in the earlier days had, had tough, had tough g01ng, you know. what I mean? Yes. The jobs were scarce and when they got a job, the, the, the reward was very small. They used to pay ten cents an hour, f1f­ teen oents an hour ••• a ••• that meant about a dollar, dollar and a half a day. Yes, that was for back-breaking work, too. Sure! Oh, all hard work, see. A, and that's the type of people that came f1rst. But 1t (went) that way. The labor­ ing class, the skilled mechanics ••• a ••• started to come later and so on. And see that's, that's the experience. And a you had, you had to go through that, that a experience of a, a rough treatment in a sense, so to speak. A lot of times you didn't like it, and a lot of times you had to take it and swallOW it. Well, this sort of thing was not.uncommon then. Oh, no, no, no. I suppose all other nationalities had it, too. I suppose. Certainly, every new wave of immigration had its share. Sure. Had to go through the same thing. But a, we didn't exper1ence a hardship in a way beoause we were ••• a ••• anxious to work and willing to work and we were forging ahead all the time. Yes.

So you overcome those, the barrier you know. It ~Qok a little while, took a little while. Course ••• a ••• too, we had, we had some of our own people that were probably ••• a ••• not occupied (26) and ••• you know what they say when you loaf and you not having any­ thing else to do, they would probably do something that wasn't al­ together desirable. Yes. Those things happen, too, see. I should say. One has to keep his hands busy one way or another. (laughs) 'rhat' s right. (laughs) So ••••• So it's not in a legal pursuit, perphaps it's in an illegal pursuit. Oh yeah, and so but I don't know what else I, I could add to my story a unless you have questions that •••• Yes. You would like for me to answer. I have a few of t hem here. But that, that gives you the entry, the forerunner ot ••••• Now, just prior to the a beginning of a World War One - of counse Euro.pe had been fighting World War One for several years. Oh, yeah. Before the United States became involved. Yeh, yeh. A, how did a, how would you say this affected the United States-in particular the :ttalian community? Now, you were very closely associated with the Italian community. Well, I served in the World War One. I was in the ar .1. Ah ••• I don't know. I didrl1t seem to get any feeling about it because a ••• we considered ourselVes as, as part of this country; and a when we, you were called to go and serve the country, you served it and served it well. So we didn't - in other words I (27) didn't have any feeling. Oh, it was - yes, most of the Italians would say, "Itts too ba.d that that this th1ng has to happen." Uh, as you know they were affiliated with a Italy ••• was at war with Germany at the time, wasn't it? Yes, in World War One, yes, they were. World War One, yes. They were. at war with Germany and Austria. That's right. I mean with us, but they were fighting against ... But there wasn't any a" there wasn't any, any, any ••••• I wouldn't know. We got along fine. I don't know what the question. A what I. a what I meant a by what sort of a change came over now. Well, see, Italy was fighting on our side. World War One, right, but World War One you see, seems to be one of .. the great cqanging pOints in the status •••• Oh yeh. Of the Italian. Yes. In this country. Yes.

And I'm just trying to draw from you some sort of ~, a comparison between the time before and the time after. Oh. And how the".,ltalian people viewed this a war. NOw' since they a herd second class status-which is what they did.hold. A, yeh, well a, the war •••• Did they feel they were obligated to serve the country? Were they happy to go to serve the country? I a, I a, to tell you the truth I didn't, I never noticed any discontentment a among the Italian people as to serving (28) the a army. All the people I went with - now I was, I was in the army and I met a lot of, a lot of Italians engaged in that war here and a ••• 1 thing tnat a ••• a ••• they were willing to serve. Yes ••• a ••• On the street, a ••• a ••• of ••• volunteering ••• In, in other words, Little Italy •••• Yes. Did have a tremendous surge of patriotism. Right. American patriotism. Absolutely. And there were •••• Absolutely there were, there were parades around the street and they used, they volunteered. There, there are many - I understood there were pro­ bably more Italian volunteers •••• Sure, it was a tremendous feeling. I tell you - a tremendous feeling. That I know. Now, after Wrold War One, of course, there was a tre­ mendous change in so far as the Italian himself as a citizen is concerned. A - perphaps he was treated a little differently. There wasn't quite as much bias shown. No, it started to die out. Yes. It started to die out. And, too, um, because a, because these, the so. called Italian people a could grasp a the conditions pretty fast. After the generation too, after my gener­ atien, there the next generation started to come up, a, everybody would go to school and everybody looking for a different kind of a job and a.... Certainly everything started to change. (29)

Now a today a we have a what are known as underprivi­ leged people. Yeh. A cUlturally deprived people.

Yes l yes. And things of this nature. Now, back in those days, of course these terms a were not known. No. You, you didn't look at people as culturally deprived. No, they - no, they didn't, no. Now, the community today seems to be very much aware of people who seem to be, as they say, out of the main stream of life - whatever this term means. I, I really don't know what the term means. NO, no. Yeh. But they say out of the main stream of life and tre­ mendous efforts, a civic efforts and governmental efforts, are made to try to draw people who are supposedly out of the main stream into the main stream of life. Yeh. Now, the Italians certainly had problems although I don't know a how they expressed themselves to the community in so far as their problems were concerned. But a, did the officia.l com­ munity ever take note of the problems which might have existed in the Italian oommunity? No one did ••• a ••• a ••• noone had ever taken any interest in ••••• The Italians did whatever they did, they did it themselves. A•••• what did happen was this - a most of the Italians a that were here were always willing to help the others and sO on. And so it was just like a you branch out from a ••••• But they didn't, they (30) didn't a, there wasn't too much that anybody had to f •••• or had to offer us anything. Yes. There wasn't, they, they made their way practically all the Italians around, around here made their own way. The Italians are very independent. Right I NOW, a in so far as old people were concerned in the Italian community, old Italian people •••• Yeh. NOW, a it is my impression and I think statistics, eh, statistics will bear this out. Yeh. I just want to get your confirmation on this. Yes. A••• the Italians never sent their old people to old people's homes or a to a poor houses as they called them then. No, no. The poor house as such does not exist today. Very, very few. There'd be - I wouldn't mention that maybe a half a dozen or so over here at the Little Sisters of the Poor. Maybe a ••• a. ••• of the home down in Smyrna, perphaps at a few but very few Italians a were, were caught in that state. Each took care of their own then? Yeh, they, that's right. Now, a would you say that the Italians were ever a discontent with the status that was given them? Well, a discontentment a ••• I, I wouldn't know how ••••• Did. they ever feel dissatisfied with the a lack of recognition - I'll say it this way - that they received from the (31) oommunity. No, no. I don't think they did because the Italian people as I eould see it a are very strong in heart, and they oan take a lot. And then they, so •••• s. they didn't complain too much about the recognition because, as I say, gradually they got it. Yes, what was the relationship now between a, a, the Italian people in - I'm gCJing to refer to the area. Yeh Where most the Italians lived as Little Italy. Yah, yeh. What was the relationship between the people in Little Italy and the police? Well ••••• It's pretty hard to really to put a tag on it but ••••• Yeh, the poliee, the police never had - the only, I remember when I was a boy, and I used to leaf around there. I used to, you know, after working hours. Well, were 'WOUld you go? Yes. You'd, you'd walk the streets a Fourth or Fifth or Sixth and Scott, Lincoln and Union, and so on. But the a, the a police a ••• a ••• had nothing much to do except little crazy, little mischief things. You know maybe a cop would chase you, chase you away from around a corner - things of that nature. And they were p.e,ty a, petty.- things 1n a sense, so to speak. They weren't a ••• a ••• you know, criminals or anything like that. Once in a while there w••• there had been a ••• a somebody got killed or something like that ••• in, in a, in a act of a ••• a ••• fight or anger. I remem­ ber one time ••• a ••• a ••• a boy got - this man shot a boy like down on Jack •••• Seventh and Jackson Street. This man was going in town; he's minding his own business when a bunch of boys started snowballing (32) him. They snowballed him to death. Well. I suppose he had a fire­ arm and he - well, he turned around and - I remember when they, the oops were ohasing him up to Seventh and, and Linooln. I was there asa boy and I watohed them. Things like that - sure there's, there's been several of those things ••• a ••• over the oourse of years happen, you know, maybe a half or dozen or so. I remember •••• I think •••••• Things like that ••••••• I've heard of the inoident •••••• Yeh. That you are desoribing now. What was the man's name, do you remember. What his name was? A••• the man he lived on Seventh Street. He died, an old man. He was a doggone nioe man, too, but a I don't remember his name now. I don't remember his name. Now, a the boy he shot, do you remember who the boy was that he shot? No, no, it's been so long that. Yes, now •••• There's this - the reoords would be a •••• I suppose the Journal would have all those. Uh huh, surely. Reoords, but I don't reoall their names beoause it's been so long. Yes. Yeh. Now, a in interviewing Mr •••••• I remember another oase a •••• on Seventh Street, a on Sixth Street rather, between Soott and Lincoln. Ipemember a, a lady getting shot and killed. Ah, but this was only a, a lover that ha.d at that did this, and I witnessed it. I didn't witness the shoeting, but r, I saw after it happened. I happened to go into that, into this, into this door and saw the lady and didn't know that who had done it. In meantime the man had walked out the back door, and I knew this lady, and I was, and, and her hus­ band was working for my father at the time. They were building a house out here by the, by the B.&O. on Eighth Street. We were. building a house for Episcopo's" a concrete blook a house, and I was going to run over there and tell her husband what had taken place. And as I was coming down Grant,Avenue, here oomes this man that was this lady's lover. (voice drops) You know. Yes. "Kompare." (Francis laughs) And a, and I hollered at him. "Hahl" I says, "You did it!" By Golly, this man and while I'm going to tell them, this man went over on Ninth_Street. He orossed Ninth Street Bridge and he stopped there because everybody started after him. And he pulled Gut a gun so nobo ••••• the he got a trolley oar. There was a trolley line there on at on a Woodlawn Avenue. Yes. A trolley line that used to go Rising Sun, up that way. He jumped on tha.t trolley 11ne. He went away. Then when the cops came, he got, they got the description of this man, who he was and what not; and they started after him. And I think they chased him for two days. And they finally tracked him down in the, in the woods; and. he shot himself. He killed himself. And that was a that was another case that I remember about shoot1ng. Things like that. Did the Italian at that time a have any representat1ve (34) who could apeak for them? Well, a, they had a Carmen DiMauro, who was a police­ man. He was very active in, a along those thi~gs. A, they had Mr. DeLuca, Joe DeLuca, who was sort of in a capacity of inter­ preter and a, and a go ••••• Who was he, the court interpreter? Yes, and there was another man that I remember too who was quite active that way, Joe D'Amica. A ••• he was •••• a •• he was a busy bee along those line of the court.and a, and a people that got in trouble and so on. 'rhere were, there were ••••• Eh, going ••••• Course we a, we did a lot of that too in later years. When some people come in get in trouble, we intercede with some, for some of them. How did people a live in those days by in large. I would say the average a people in the •••••• Well, a, they were - life was a, was a, you wouldn't go in and house and find rugs and find what you, what you got to­ day. They would probably have bare floors. They probably didn't have hot water heat or a the facilities we have now. They probably had a ••• a coal stove and things like that but their homes were kept up. Now, in the early days, many, very often you had men who came here from Italy. Yeh. And a they would come alone. Yeh. In other words they didn't have a family with them. No. Now, how did these men live? Well, a, there were a lot of families that would take in boarders. A ••• by that I mean a ••• when they're trying to make an extra dollar, you oan appreoiate. We said before ten oents an hour, fifteen cents an hour, which meant a dollar a day, a dollarl A lot of these families ••• a ••• would take in boarders, you know. The, the, that was a common practice those days. They would take one or two boarders to help make an extra dollar. And a single man was, was taken care like that. Did many people return to Italy after having been here for a while? That was a, a quite a practice. A, a lot of people who would come and go. Would they go back to stay or would they ••••• Yeh, then they'd probably come back again. Uh huh. No, some would stay but the most again, the majGrity would go and then they'd come back for some reason. They'd come back. Uh, did many ••••• That's a as far as this community is concerned that I remember. Well, that is what I'm addressing my questions to. Yeh, yeh, they come back. Did many people leave a Wilmington to go to other parts of the country? Many people that you know of? You mean leave a from here to go other parts of the •••• Of the country. Oh yes, they, the, a lot of people lived here who later moved.in Pennsylvania, in Maryland, in Ohio; and a they, they, they drifted away. A lot of people drifted away. What, what sort of things a would it have been t.hat. would have drawn them out of this area to go other places. Well, well for instance 1n Ohio a ••• a ••• the automo­ biles industry started and a (Tape turned). Well, a, the people that would drift away, there were a lot of people left here went to California •••• to better their - perphaps they, the Climate and the opportunities were younger opportunities where they could do better. A lot of people would go say to Ohio because of the auto­ mobile industry and the tire business and so on. Some people moved to Baltimore for other reasons, Pennsylvania ••• a ••• they moved a­ round 11ke any other people. Uh ••• many of the •••• Always ••• a ••• trying to better their •••• Yes. Their positions. Most of the people a who came, who migrated to this country it seems, came from a, a, more or less the southern part of a Italy. Yes. Now the climate there was a, is a"a 1n southern Italy is quite different than the climate here. How did a most people adjust to this? NOW, a, wait a minute. Where we came, came from the climate there was on about par with this climate here. Pretty much like it is here? Around, pretty much the same. Now, you take right a­ round Naples, I would say, would be the climate such as of a Caro­ linas for instance or a down, down that a lower end of the state. They didn't get too much snow, but a the northern part a lot of those people migrated but they migrated into the, into regions of ( 37) this country where it was equivalent to north of Italy believe it or not. Yes, I know. There are many of the people from north- ern Italy who were a •••• Yeh, yah ••• Quarry workers or marble workers. Yeh, yeh. Went to Vermont. They had ••••• Went to Vermont. Lot of them went to •••• a ••• out in the reglon of a, of a Salt Lake City and up around that way. You'll find a, a lot of northern Italians over in that area. Yes, that's interesting. They would go into, for some reason, they'd go into that sort of a climate, into the mountain areas. Now, most of the people that were here, who came here. Yeh. Were mostly uns.killed, a would you say this is a pretty accurate statement? Uh •••• we ••• the, the large percentage, yes. But you, you got the, you got the barber, you got the tailor, you got the, the stone mason, you got the bricklayer. They were, they came here too. But the biggest percentage were common laborers, farmers that a had been dOing farming on the other side. Uh, would you say that a, that their chances for ad- vancement were nil, practically nil'1 At the time? Yes. I would say so. I would say it was, it was pretty hard. Many a, many a, many stayed with the, with the, the, the class of work they were doing. (38)

Yes. Uh, theyimproven some. Ub, besides •••••• Certainly was an improvement over what they had in Italy. Yeh, the improvement came in this way that a SQon as the a equipment came along, such as your, a your steam shovel and your - then the a the laboring, the laboring changed the way of the work. You know what I mean. Yes. 'stead of having to use pick and shovel. That, then it was different. As the equipment grew, as we got a modernized with a, with a, with tools, then then, the laboring class improved. Now, in those days oanyou think of any cases where perphaps professional people a would come here from Italy. Can you think of any instances? I don't remember •••••• I tell you it was very difficult for professional people to oome here. I remember in a one or two instances where for instance ••• a ••• a oivil engineers and a or some­ body - it would be difficult for them to get placed. And because of the language too, translation of the, of the tongue was, was a difficult a •••• And a ••• there, there •••• no, professional people didn't come, not around here anyway that I know of. Now, certainly there, there was a language barrier. Language barrier. But would you say there was any other, reason why these people could not a fit to a the category in which they should have fit had they come? Well, it was hard, it was hard to get placed. Would you say it was a natural bi- not a natural bias but a bias a against perphaps the Italian? I don't know whether that was the cause or not; but, you see, a supposing I were, wanted. a job in One of these offices - say duPont or that - it, it was difficult, it was difficult because they, at the time, I suupose they were growing too. But a they, they couldn't find a place, They couldntt used them. Some b.cw or

other they wouldn't use ~ any way. I :mean a they, they wanted the real McCoy at the t1m6, these institutions a where they eould have gotten a job. It was hard for a professional men to get started. Would you say that most people who came here, came here because they had relations here or close friends? A••• not all them, not all oases. No, I wouldn't say that necessarily. I think the tr.end of at of the immigration in this country from Italy was because the, the, the opportunity. Yes, well, 11m speaking af the, the - I agree with yeu here ••••••••••• area. Naturally, naturally, naturally those who had oome in before was some influenoe. I would say so. That was some. That would be an influence because a it's easier to go where you know semeb.dy and where you know that you oan get placed a little bit better. Yes, was there anything partioular here in this area that would draw immigrants other than having friends here or ac­ .qua1ntances or perphaps relat1ves?

I don't remember anything particular because •••••• Y0Uknow, .any tremendous industry that would draw them beoause of the need for manpower and the opportunity to make a living? No, the only thing - yeh, well, this was, this was a very, a very healthy area all the t1me as leng as I can remember the (40) city of Wilmington and the New Castle County ••• a ••• always had good opportunities. 1 mean a for a whether you were laborer as who, who, you could be the, the there was always something to do here. Now, when we speak of immigration it seems we always concentrate en men.

Yeh. Always concentrate on men. Now, certainly there were women here. They seemed to be the forgotten people. Oh yeh, well. naturally were there. What was their role a in the a community? What was the women's relet Well, the lady's role were Just housewives. They were just •••• In other words she was just the wife and mother of the family. Right I That's rightl And this was about the end of her role? They - that's about all. I mean sbe had no public life to speak of'l No, no, no, no. Later on they started the1r own like a lodge a ••••• "Stella dlItalia" and things of that nature'l Those - that's about all. Yee. A but a, but a, a, not like today. They d1dn't, they d1dn't reaoh outside to a say they, to join this or that or the other because a .•••••• But, but could you say a this - that the women in the community, with the coming of the women in large numbers because (41) in the very beginning, going back to the nineteenth century when the men came here alone, wouldn't you say,that the women really a came and gave the community, the Italian community, a solid base and a stability that it could never really have known a had they not come? Oh, no question about it. There's no question about it? I mean a after all that's what makes a family is •••• Right, a, •••••• Once you mate and you're husband ,and wite, you, you create a family; children come; and a, and that, and that is, that has been the, the, the multiplication of the, the so-called - our element here today I'm almost sure. Now, a certainly ••••• Of course, when these - a lot ot these single men they came over in the early days ••• a ••• they probably had a sweetheart over there and after a while they'd send for •••• Yes. For the lady, you see. Uh huh. And, and that's the way things started. And the Italian men •••• there, there, those days they, they, they catered to, to the Italian woman. Put it that way. They, they didn't try to branch out and marry this or that or the other that. They, they kept to themselves pretty much at the time. Now it's different. Now ••••• That's right, yes. Now, in my own house I have the League of Nations. So ••• a •••• (chuckles) Now, when a the Italian men were not working, now cer­ tainly the days were long, the working day was very long •••• (42)

Yah, yeh. But what did they do f'or entertainment? Well ••• a ••• they were very, very busy playing cards, "Tre Sette" and a "SOQPPa.." And, and the Italian games, a they would be ••• a ••• they, they, they'd play most of' this in private homes a, a lot of' times. They'd get together a ••• a ••• three or f'our and so on and then a well, of' oourse, you had the movies. Some times they'd go to movies and, but most of' the time they spent their time playing among themselves. Yes, were there any Italian olubs of any sort? Well, now the Ita11an clubs started - that I know - it's the beginning that started way back in along about in 1918, along about those years ••• a ••• or maybe bef'ore that. Course I was, I was president of' the lodge here. I was one of' the presi­ dents of the lodge that your father used to belong to. The a the Sons of' Italy? The Sons of' Italy, a Sons of' Columbus. Sons of' Columbus, yes. Or the Sons of Italy I was a, I was a, um, one of the incorporators when it f'irst started. And a Picciotti was the f'irst, f'irst president of' the ••••• I was the second president of the, of the club. That was, that was a, a media of' a, of a lot of' pastimes. A, during the day and too at night, at night go there and play cards and a ••• they'd stay open till about a oh maybe eleven o'clock, midnight. And on Sunday, you know, they used to have a these so-called licensed lockers ••• a ••• Yes, now ••••• That was the excuse, but they (chuckles) they had everything to drink and to spend the1r time playing cards. (43)

.. Now, the Sons of Co1umbus ••• a ••• was founded when, in 1923? Ah, I would say it was founded right after the World

War, I think. Yes, now where did they have the first meeting here? Ah, we had the first meeting hall on Sixth Street. Oh, you know where the Republican across •••• Yes. You know where Fierro·s •••• had the ••••• Right, yes. That was a, that was one of the first. And they had another one, they had.••• a ••• well, that was called the Republican Club when that started. We built that. Uh huh. And they had the Democrat Club where the Neighborhood House is. Yes. There were two, see. Now, how far back do these two clubs go? Oh, they go back a, they go back in along about the tens. Along about that time. Around 19107 Around 1910. Now these were the centers would you say of a political action in the community? Well that was, yeh, that was the politics, that was the politics. That's right. That was where the •••• and at the same time they - it was used for meetings, the recreational, for weddings •••• a ••• in fact I was (44) married there in 1921, a, on Sixth Street. And that hall is where I had my a ••• reception and my good time. (chuckles) So things certa.inly have a changed. The whole a •••• well, the place has become a dwelling, a business, and I don't know what else. Now, now, now I think they changed, they converted it:, into a residential place, I guess. Well, it had, had bee.n for years. Course this goes back in the thirties. Yeh, but I used to do, to conduct a business under, underneath. Right. But that was the old Republican started. (MRS. DIS.) Someone else, a woman, still have it. (FR.) Yes, still have it, yes.

(MR •• DIS) You're going to be re •••• on the machine there. (MRS. DIS) Me, I'm not opening my mouth. (MR. DIS) You are opening it. (MRS. DIS) Oh, oh, oh ••••••• (ALL) (Laughter) (FR.) Were there any Italian stage productions brought into a Wilmington at that time? Yeh, um, well that takes us back to, to a the present Sons of Columbus building. A••• I forgot exactly what year, but it was a •••• some time along about 19 •••• a ••• let I s see ••• we built a ••••• I think it was a around that ti •••• around that, around the twenties, between the twenties and the thirties. We built the theater there on Union Street. Ah, the Park Theater right now. Park Thea.ter. (45)

Yes. 'rhere were a group of four people owned that and a we built it for them. A, we had it designed by an arohiteot oalled Wallace Hance, and then we built it. In the meantime Mr. Carletto got the a, got the a bug to have a movie and a, course Mr. Carletto a ••• was in the a, had a saloon business besides the undertaking business. He also had a saloon there Seventh and, and Lincoln on the corner there where the tailor shop is now. What is there? There's some kind of a store there now that does a cleaning or a •••• Oh, is it •••• I'm not sure what's there.

Well, b~t that was, that was the first license that an Italian got here to sell, to dispense beverages, you know, saloen they called it. Yes. They had a bar and ••• well, he had been making some money, course, you know how it is. That was the only saloon there ••• and ••• a ••• a ••• and he was just a popular place. And he got the bug to build a theater on Fourth Street Which is the, the Sons of Italy, a Sons of Columbus or Sons of Italy now. That was a theater. We built that too a for Mr. Carletto •••• a •••• Augustine Fortunato did the woodwork and we did the well, we did all the construction. And then they, they started to bring shows in from Philadelphia, Italian they had in Philadelphia. Course they had, they had more than, than a we would have here and too again then some of the groups around here started to become actors and they gave some shows. I remember a •••• ponorerio's (1). I remember, I remember several peoole that had come here from New York. They were living here. And yes, they started to promote shows and sure •••• that I remember. (46)

All right now, in so far as the Italian olubs were oon­ oerned, what was their funotion in the oommunity? Did they have any real funotion? Well, I •••• Other than just a plaoe to go for sooializing and en- tertainment. Don't know the function, it was more or less - if you traoe it and make an analysis of it, it was mor.or lesson the political side. Uh, and, and of course the, the, the function too these like you have them now, you have a feast, you have a •••••• But it would all, all hinge into a somebody that was in politics that wanted to •••• In other words it just funneled down to one individual? Right. Or into one group. Oh, no, a, a, there'd be, there'd be one or two, or three or four people and then they would enthuse and in, interest the rest of the people. Yes, a •••• "We're gGing to have a feast." And a, What's the pur­ pose of it? If you trace it down, it was always for political reasons. Yes. It was either for a well a, campaign coming on or •••• Yes, I understand. The only time you saw ••• a •• the city politicians in the area was around eleotion time. Absolutely! That's what I'm saying. Came to a •••• right. They didn't, they didn't do teo much. They oelebrated the, the twelfth of October every year, parade and what have you. (47)

Why did they celebrate the twelfth of October - CCi)lumbus Day? Columbus Day. Columbus Day, right. Yeh. This was before it was made a national holiday, even betore then they used to ••••• Well, a the twe1tt.h of October has always been the great Spanish national holiday. I, I didn't •••• And they call it the Day of the Race, "Dia de la Raza." I think they call it. Uh huh. And this is greatly celebrated in South America and even in Spain. Un huh, yeh, yeh. All Latin American countries. Uh, what was, what were the educational opportunites for Italians at that time? Well, the educational opportuni tes I d.G>n 't th1nk they, there was any barrier against it. I think that a ••• a •• the reason a they d1dn't ••• bafere was because of a lack of money. They were not making enough 'and I suppose that was a drawback. But a, a, I remember the first, the first people who went to Delaware. I re­ member Mike F1dance was one of the first ones and a I remember his cousin Joe Fidance. I remember a for instance then ••• a ••• Dr. Bernardo and Johnny DeLuca and a lot of started 'to go there. But a prior to that I think it was just a laok of families not •••••• They couldn't afford the luxury of an education. Couldn't afford. That's right. Eh, what was their attitude toward education? Did they always feel it was a desirable thingt (48)

Oh yes. They, they, the so-called ••• oh, they were eager to go. I mean a sure there was a sense of a wanting to educate yourself for the reason that you had to advance in life. You, you couldn't otherwise. Yeh, I've answered enough of your questions? We're almost finished, O.K.? No, listen can I offer you anything like a stupid I didn't. How about a drink! That's O.K. What'll you have? Let us continue with this then. Now, we have spoken I think the last subject we were on was the general attitude of the Italian people toward education. Yeh. Now, you have already told me about your own educa- tion. Yeh. And I think the, we a, well, we didn't touoh too much on this, al to how you were treated in Bchoel. Now, of course, you went through the •••• a ••• Elementary grades. Elementary grades and I guess you went through the natural harassment that a •••• Yeh, yeh.

Most youngsters of a m~nority group would go through in a ••••• Well, I want to put it this way. I went to school,

the f~rst school I went to was St. rhomas's school, which was a naturally was a Catholic sohool and a, a lot of the, l,ot of other children were going to a Number 25, which is the a Lore School. At the time it was, it was called Number 25. Now, was that school rebuilt there? Oh yeh, that was the old sohool was torn down completely and they built a new one. Um, what I'm trying to say is, in our own area where I lived - I'm talking about now - a ••• oourse a those days too there was ••• a ••• sort of a the religious feeling was there too between your Catholio and the Protestant. Yes.

The t the feeling were there. I ••• don't know why, but I COUldn't understand it. And ••• a •• but it •••• but there wasn It any disagreement or anything like that. yeu see. And they all got, we all got along all right. A••• we didn't get - oourse I didn't, never got mistreat at school. Oh, I've gotten into a ••• a fuss, a fight. You know how boys are. (laughter) Why sure. That, that is, that is natural. Certainly, you weuldn't have been a boy if you hadn't. No, a ••• and I did. I made a ohange because I got in­ to, got into, got into a fight with a boy right in the classroom. His name was Jim Dougherty. He, he sat, he •••• we used to sit to­ to- tegether. And I got into a fuss with this boy and, and, and a also we had a disagreemnt in sohool and a, and the teaoher came up and sort or ••• a ••• whether she favored him or, or, and not me - I got in, in trouble over the- thing. And a over what had happ~ned and she said to me that I'd have to wait until a noontime for a •••• Father Connity to, to a to talk to me and to give me my punishment. Well, I knew that Father Connity was a type of a, of a priest that a, a he would, he would even smaok you. You know he, uh, I saw him give a boy a blaok eye. He was an old time Irish priest, huh? (50)

So, so what happened ••• a •• he didn't show up tor me to be punished and I got scared and I didn't go back to St. Thomas's and I transterred. I went to Number 13 school. Uh huh. Which was not here. Tl:!.irteen was Union and a, Union and a - near a Delaware Avenue, the old Number 13 school. Yes, I've, I, I think that is a school now for handi­ capped children. Yeh, yeh. Well, that, that's where I went to school. I was going to school then with a the same time Dr. Bernardo was go1ng to school. I was g01ng to school with Frank Corsano those days too. He used to go to school with me. Course Frank became a polit1c1an. He's in Cape May now, isn't he? Yeh, no, he's 1n a, he's 1n a •••• Stone Harbor. Sone Haber, that's it. I knew it was areund in there somewhere. Stone Harbor,Stone Harbor. And that's where I left the Catholic school and went to, to the publ1c schools. But we didn't experience any, too much hardship. Yeu know, oh sure, there would be th~fights •••• the ••• you know how boys would do or maybe you'd get a name called or so. What could you do? From what segment ot the community would you say the greatest preseure oame' Now, I mean the pressure em the Italian community. What segment of the community would yeu say caused them the most trouble' Well, those, those days ••• a ••• a to be frank with. you, those days the- 1npol1tios a the, the Irish element were the the - I think that from that end of it most. I don't think any a, a

- really the Irish, you had the, the, the Browntown with the so-called (51)

Polacks, the Polish, and a then the Negroes. 80 ••• a ••• I don't know. It was all who you,were. Mostly the, mostly the Irish and a the Italians. There's were you had the mo-st friction then? Yeh, yeh there you had friotion. What ocourred in the Italian community during Mussolini's rise to pewer. Now, what was the effect on the Italian oommunity of this man's rise to power? Well, a, I'll be frank with you. All the time the Italians were enthusiastio over, over Mussolini. And it's not,

it' s not the hidden beoause ,that's the way most the peeple felt. < I used to remember that a he was a, he was a doing a lot of good tor Italy at the time. A he. sure, he used methods that, that a perphaps a were not •••• so nioe, the castor oil and what have you, but I think that a ••••• What was this business about the oastor oil? I •••• Well, a, he, they, they - it you didn't go to work or you didn't act good, _you'd, you'd get a phystc-•.. You'd get a dose of castor oil? (laughter) That's right. In his time, he'd do anything. And I'll tell you the truth, he, he, he was a, he did a lot of good for Italy when he first came to power. And a •••• Well, what a, how did the a ••••• They, he created excitement for Italy. I want to tell you the, the Italian people here that I remember allover were -----. They were all for him at the time. Now, how did this manifest itself in the community? How did it mat'erialize all this enthusiasm? Well, the enthusiasm was only due to a was only due to what he was doing ever there. What he was-----. And the public (52)

••• well, of course, there were Italian papers like ttL'opnione" let out. Lot of the Italian, the old Italian pe0ple would, would read the Italian press and naturally the Italian press carr1ed all these wonderful ••• a ••• stories and wonderful achievements of Musso11ni. And that is natural for your, your blood to reaot to the •••••• Yes, now were there any spec1f10 organizations, or­ ganizations that were spec1fica~lt, formed a'.,tO,."a,a toahQw,tb.1s support for Mussolini? Well, I, I understood that there probably a ••• a ••• that there were probably a group that formed that ••• a •• "11 FascistiH here but must have been a, a very small one. I, that I ••••• D1d you know anything about the Fascist League of North America? I •••• No, I don't. I was never 1n a sense I was always, I was always busy working dOing my, my affairs and I never used to take any part in, in anyth1ng that •••• sure, you would hear Musso11n1 probably I would feel ••••• good about Mussol1ni for what he was do1ng unt1l he got a associated and aff11iated with, with H1tler and then of course, a that was a different story. Were there ever any parades or rallies, any black shirt parades? Oh no, no, that I don't remember. Well, do you remember ever a, a having a known of any ral11es that were held at the Sons of Columbus Lodge, faselst rallies of any sort? Uh, not to my knowledge, but there may have been. Where gold was collected, you know, wedding rings, they took------. Yeh, there might have been but I, to my knowledge, no, (53) because as I said I, I at. at one time there I almost left the lodge. Not that I left it, I just didn't, didn't go there much. I was busy working, plenty to do outside and I used to like a outside activities like playing golf and th1ngs of that nature so I didn't go to the ••••• I d1dn't go to these meet1ngs or..... I, I paid my dues •••• Can you remember back a - chang1ng the subject now - to the t1me when the Ita11an people d1d not have the1r own church? Yes, I de remember a, that was pr10r to 1926. They didn't have their own church. Now, can you remember back a further ••• a ••• say around 19101 Yeh, well ••••• Go1ng to church at that t1me. Oan you remember a, a what it was like to go to church? Yes. To have to go to St. Thomas's or St. Peter's? Yeh, well now, I well, there where I lived ,up on the West Side here, I used to ga to St. Thomas's. Most of the Ita11an peQple that lived up 1n th1s area went to st. Thomas's. Now you had a group of Italian people that lived down around a TatnBll street, Orange street. L1ncoln Street, that area? West and so on. Yes. Down 1n that area and they all used to go to St. Peter's. St. Peter's Cathedral 1s st1ll a cathedral. A, a lot of them used to go down there. Now there were a few that used to go to St. Paul's. Did they have an Italian Mass? And then they had a few up 1n, up around R1sing Sun. (54) they used to go to st. Joseph. They, they were pretty well scat­ tered around, but the, the largest nucleus was here, up here in the so-called Little Italy. yes. And a, but then, too, there were a let of, a lot of us that didn't go to church at all. Well, this is not too uncommon with Italian men, is it? Uh? This was not too uncommon with Italian men? No, they were, they neglected the churcQ. I mean a •••• NOw, a was there an Italian Mass at these churches were you did have a large concentrations of Italians? Do you remember them having an Italian Mass perphaps the nine o'clock Mass? No. The Italian Mass or anything like that? No, I don't remember.

You don't re~ember? No. Now, in retrospect, ••••• do you see a ••• well, before I go into this ••• a ••• do you see any resemblance between the Italian community today and as it was in the early twentieth oentury? You mean ••• a •• the ohange? Yes, do you see any resemblanoe? Is there anything that is the same? Well •••• Anything at all. Oh, there's a, a lot of the traits are oarried on. You take around the neighborhoods tOday. A lot, let there's still a lot (55) of yeung, let of fellows that still carryon the same they did. You take around Lincoln Street there. Uh huh. Seventh Street ••• a •• they still use about the same old ••• you know. Yes, you'd say in so far as a their a socializing habits perphaps? Yeh, yeh. They're pretty much the same? Yeh, yeh. Yes, O.K. now. In retrospect can you describe any definite periods of time during whioh marked changes took plaoe in the Italian community and the community here in general? Yeh. Now, certainly there is a gradual change. Yeh, yeh. That you don't even notice but were there any particu­ lar periods •••• Yeh, yeh. Where you could put your, that you CQuld put your finger

On ••• Yeh, yeh. And say this was a definite change, fer instanoe Prohibition? I would aay, I would say •••• well, Prohibition was one. I would say that it was right after World War One. Beginning from that time on, the changes started to a take plaoe. A, could you a, a, be specific as to what kind of a change or would you say that it was such a general change that you a •••

Well, the a, the ~.- I would say that most of the ( 56) people like a young men that a had gone overseas in the war and they had experienced all sorts of, all ~rt of things and too our country a traveled a lot faster in a, in a way of a, a of a business life and. a progress in all sorts of other things, you know, improvements in wages and what have you a, that is, that is what brought it up. The entire standard of living. The entire standard of l1vins. Changed. Yes, for everybody. Now, in so far as the living conditions themselves were concerned, the dwellings of the people, how did they change? Could now you're in the building business and •••• Yeh. Perphaps could see this a •••• They changed, now they changed this way. A•••• lot ot these homes were ••• a ••• modernized. Were ••• let of the people put in a ••• a •• hot, hot air heat- or het water ~eat. A••• lot ef •••• they, they started to buy rugs and then comes your automobile and all these things a started a I would say from 19 •••• around 1915 on. How ·bout •••• 19. How 'bout the hardwood floor? Would, would you say that •••• Well, the hardwood floor, yes. Hardwood floor came, that started about I wou1d say after the World War One, yeh. Hard­ wood floors were here but not - they-were not oommonly used. They, that's right. They, they a, only few people had them, people who were really had means, had some money, older families that were here for a long time. But the, thea, the - all ,of UB, I mean the the people that came here, I would say then started. This, this thing started right after World War One because it, it's true this way because I came back from, from the army, and we werellv.~ still living at Fifth and Lincoln on the corner. Well, as soon as I got back, Pop wanted to build a new house. So we bought a lot at 503 Rodney Street. Well, 503 Rodney, I made the drawings and every­ thing. We build a new house. Well, where we used soft pine floors on the new house, up there we used hardwood floors and fireplace, and so you can see that's just when it started right after World War One. And then it seems to me that one family attracts one other and the other and they all follow suit. It's exactly the way. It's, it's just like you saw this big change in the last five, six years.

A••• a lot of these people that move out of tr~ city and bought out in the suburbs. Yes. You see that's the same, the same thing. 'rhere was, that was the era that started all this, right after World War One. What sort of a change did Prohibition cause? Prohibltion ••••• was bad. I a, I remember that was bad. Prohibition created a lot of racketeering. Prohibition created a lot of bootlegging and a lot of places so-called "Speak-Easy," you know, in homes and in clubs and every place.rhat was, that was the worst thing that could have ever happened to this country, Prohibition. And that, that what created the a, the, the, the big barons of the bootlegging industries, the a Capons, all the other gangssters that were in that business. That became a hell of a big industry, you know. Yes. So •••• In so far as Little Italy was concerned what Bort of a (58) change took place there' A••• could you a think1ng back on it, could you see what the difference in Little Italy was before Prohib1tion and after Prohibit1on set in? Well ••••• Would you say 1t became a less wholesome place in which to l1ve? Yehhhhhh, 1t wasn't, it wasn't as, as nice because a •••• you can vis10n it this way that somebody was doing someth1ng that he wasn't supposed to do because of the law. The law was be1ng broken in every home. Yes. That's so te speak, not only among the Italians, I would say, but among all people. Pr10r to Proh1bition did you very frequently see non­ Italian people - now when I speak of Italian people I'm also refer­ ring of Amer1cans ••••• Oh yeh. Of Italian ancestry. Yeh. D1d you very frequently see non-Italian people frequenting Little Italy"l Uh •••• Prior to Prohibition. Oh, you mean com1ng up •••• Com1ng up there, yes. Well, they, they, they would not, not too much. Uh, we yes, we as young peeple we used to go to these dances. For 1nstance, a, a, we'd go to the Polish -----, Polish a hall. We'd go down to dances down there. They would. come to the dances to our place. Then we would go to the Irish Turner Hall down on French Street. And (59) they would come. Yeh, that's, that's the, that's the way you, the mixture would take place. Uh huh. Only in that, that fashion. Only in that respect though? Yeh. But you never saw people coming up a •••• Well, they would sometimes they would be, some people mix with the Italians when they would have a wedding or a Christening or because those days the celebrations used to be in your own little private home. Yes. Most of the recreation, most of the celebrations those days used to be done in the, in the house. They'd get a, a couple of players and they'd dance and •••• yes, they would mix that way.

Now, after Prohibition set in, how did this relatio~ ship change in Little Italyt Did you then start to see more and different people eoming into the area only for the drinking? Tpat did take place to a degree, but that, that, that traffic would not only be among the people of Little Italy but would also be if you went and - among the Polish people. Perphaps they had areas like that, down in the East Side, they, the colored or some place else - the Irish. They all had that kind of ••••• Yeh, they all have it. Sure ( But what, what I'm, I'm trying to get at is that you have, you had outsiders then coming in. Sure, they'd come in. Yes. Sure. (60)

Now, a, a you saw more drunks on the street then whereas previously you didn't see any. Well, you - that's right. You, you well, you would because a, a let Qf these people that were looking ••• a ••• kind of, of •••• environment were people that didn't know how to hold it. Now they're people that a, that a .. course a lot of people used to make it in their own homes. Yes. And they didn't have to go to these plaoes and therefore ••• Of oourse •••• The desire wasn't as great. Right, in other words there wasn't ••••• You take these people that didn't have it and the only way they knew how to get it would be in some ---- a--- they use to have. "Speak-Easy." To rap at the door and they'd peep and who you were and then let you in then. I, I remember stuff like that. A, the Republioan Club beoame a Speak-Easy did it not? A, I would say •••• a •••• What did they oallit, the "Hotoha Club":or ••••• Oh, I forgot exaotly but they had a lot of these plaoes. Yes. The old, now there was a, the old saloons were made plaoes like that. I remember one I, you know where what's his name is now - there, on, on a Soott and Front street? Front and Soott ••• a •••• What' s his name - got the big sign there ...... Oh, you mean - you don't mean Union and Soott d. you? No, I mean ••••• (61)

Rather Lanoaster Avenue and Soott? . I mean, I mean So ott and, and Lanoaster. Yeh, Remed10. Remed1o's. Yes. Well, that plaoe was an old saloon plaoe and during Prohibition it became a, one of these a you know, if you go to the door. Speak-Easy, yes. rhey look at you and you come in. They used to sell that way. They, there were plaoes like that all Qver the area. A lot of people used to go from there, used to go to Chester because there, there were plaoes. So it was very common and you were, you were breaking the law. this was it, yes. But it, it wasntt, it was nuts, it was orazy. They didn't have to have such a law. It was bad. ------. Yes, a, I've asked about as many questions as a I can think of. Do you have anything else that you would like to add to ••••• I don't know what else to tell you because you, you know our life here, you know. Yes. Just as muoh about the later years as I would know. Well, this pretty muoh covers it then. Yeh. O.K.