June 18, 1980 CC)NGRESSIONAL RECORD- SENATE 15293 wish resettlement, but an (1) the Government of Iran has continued out any authority or responsibility what- ters do not towards the Gov- Cambodia. Yet to act in a hostile manner soever. opportunity to return to ernment of the United States since it seized who do not wish to be re- Mr. President, the Senator from Kan- what of those American diplomatic personnel on Novem- to settled elsewhere? It seems to the Sen- sas offers an unprinted amendment ber 4, 1979; the Department of Justice ator from Kansas that this new repatri- citizens and residents of the S. 2377, (2) certain include a sense of is a logical time to let the United States have collaborated in this hos- Authorization Act, to ation program from asylum nations process the tility by condemning and insulting their the Senate resolution the Senator international on June 6. Khmer refugees who are seeking resettle- own country: Kansas introduced separately ment. (3) the Government of Iran conducted a This amendment would encourage the falsely represented as an Gen- this amendment does is to express "sham" tribunal, President to instruct the Attorney All assessment of "crimes of America", at which extent of that these peo- eral to prosecute to the fullest the sense of the Congress certain citizens and residents of the United led by ple should be given an opportunity to the law, the 10 American citizens States attended at the request and expense for their actions with the seek resettlement. The amendment does Ramsey Clark, of Iran: of Iran in apparent viola- urging our Government to do (4) the only means of preventing the Government this by (18 U.S.C. 953). everything possible to encourage the dangerous and damaging actions of those tion of the Logan Act U.N. High Commissioner and the King- American participants in such anti-Ameri- Senate Resolution 456 was cosponsored dom of Thailand to transfer these people can propaganda, short of a dcl'aration of by 24 Senators. On June 10, 1980, an refugee war against Iran, is the active enforcement identical resolution was introduced in from the holding centers to the of section 953 of title 18. United States camps so they may be processed by rep- the House by Congressman RUDD as Code (hereafter in this section referred to House Resolution 704. resentatives of the international com- as "the Logan Act"); A FUNDAMENTAL CONCEPT munity. (5) the Logan Act provides that any citi- This amendment in no way impugns zen of the United States, wherever he may The resolution the Senator from Kan- or undermines the international resettle- be, who, without authority of the United sas and about 24 other Senators intro- ment effort. It does not require the States, directly or indirectly commences or duced addresses a fundamental concept. States to assume a larger propor- carries on any correspondence or intercourse This concept concerns the taking of the United or any officer tion of the refugee resettlement burden. with any foreign government law into one's own hands, the formulat- or agent thereof, with intent to influence the any Indeed, in light of the suffering of the measures or conduct of any foreign govern- ing of national public policy without Khmer people, some may say this pro- ment or of any officer or agent thereof, in authority or responsibility whatsoever. posal is too mild. relation to any disputes or controversies with While Mr. Clark was participating in The Senator from Kansas believes this the United States, or to defeat the measures the Iranian conference to condemn to be a moderate gesture. Yet, since this of the United States, shall be fined not more America, he seriously jeopardized the problem is generally out of the hands than $5,000 or imprisoned not more than safety of the hostages and the potential of Congress, this proposal may be the three years, or both: and for future official negotiations. He lent only immediate remedy available to us. (6) the President by Executive order has legitimacy to the allegations of the radi- prohibited all travel by American citizens against his own peo- Because this bill under consideration to- to Iran as part of an overall policy of se- cal revolutionaries day authorizes funds for the Immigration curing the release of the American hostages. ple, while 53 of his fellow citizens lan- and Naturalization Service, it is a logical (b) It is the sense of the Congress that- guish in an outrageous captivity. vehicle for this statement by the Con- (1) the President should instruct the At- From the moment Ramsey Clark and gress. This amendment costs the Nation torney General to investigate and to prose- his group joined the Iranian conference nothing, but is a humane step, meriting cute to the fullest extent of the law any called to denounce America, Clark and the acceptance of the Senate. person who violates the Logan Act. his supporters have been wrapping an ef- Mr. DECONCINI. Mr. President, we Mr. President, parliamen- themselves in the Constitution in Mr. DOLE. let have looked at the amendment of the tary inquiry. fort to escape any kind of censure, apparent Senator from Kansas and I think it is a The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Sen- alone punishment, for their very sound amendment. We are willing ator will state it. violation of the laws. the to accept it. Mr. DOLE. As I understand, there are An elaborate attempt to stretch freedom to I yield back my time:: 15 minutes to a side? first amendment to include the fact that Mr. THURMOND. Mr. President, I The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Sen- travel is used to excuse have no objection to the amendment ator is correct. Ramsey Clark went to Tehran with the United and would be happy to accept it. Mr. DOLE. The Senator from Kansas purpose of representing the The PRESIDING OFFICER. The ques- has what, about 12 minutes remaining? States in a de facto official capacity. to tion is on agreeing to the amendment The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Sen- Ramsey Clark appointed himself of the Senator from Kansas. ator has 15 minutes remaining. speak for America in an international of 53 The amendment was agreed to. Mr. DOLE. Mr. President, there is dispute that jeopardizes the lives American hostages. UP AMENDMENT NO. 1195 nothing very complicated about this amendment. This amendment, in effect, THE FREEDOM TO TRAVEL: A BLATANT (Purpose: To express the sense of the Con- SMIOKESCREEN gress with respect to potential violations expresses the sense of the Congress-I of the Logan Act and the prohibition on think it is best to just read that particu- This constitutional issue is a red her- travel to Iran) lar paragraph because it is rather self- ring and has nothing to do with Mr. Mr. DOLE. Mr. President, I now send explanatory: Clark's self-righteous behavior and ap- an amendment to the desk on which It is the sense of the Congress that- parent disregard of the law. The Logan there is a time limit and I ask for its (1) the President should instruct the At- Act, clear and simple, bans unauthorized immediate consideration. torney General to investigate and to prose- Americans from dealing with a foreign The PRESIDING OFFICER. The clerk cute to the fullest extent of the law any government, or representing this coun- Act. will report. person who violates the Logan try in matters of bilateral dispute with The assistant legislative clerk read as It seems to this Senator that that in foreign governments. follows: no way passes judgment on anyone. It This Senator has seen how the old The Senator from Kansas (Mr. DOLE) pro- in no way indicates the guilt or in- liberal coalition of antiwar protestors, poses an unprinted amendment numbered nocence of anyone, but it does suggest like the radicals that Ramsey Clark led 1195. there ought to be an investigation of to Hanoi during the Vietnam war, are Mr. DOLE. Mr. President, I ask unani- those who traveled to Iran without trying to obscure Mr. Clark's actions mous consent that further reading of authority, in fact, contrary to the Pres- from judicial review by invoking an un- bad the amendment be dispensed with. ident's directive, in spite of the Presi- written freedom to travel. It is too The PRESIDING OFFICER. Without dent's ban on travel, and I just suggest they are not more concerned with those objection, it is so ordered. there are 24 or more Senators who are laws that are written down. The amendment is as follows: concerned about this fundamental con- The Senator from Kansas appeared On page 61, between lines 10 and 11, insert cept. This concept concerns taking of on the "Good Morning America" pro- the following: the law into one's own hands, the for- gram and listened to Mr. Ira Glasser, SEC. 120. (a) The Congress finds that- mulating of national public policy with- executive director of the American Civil June 18, 1980 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE 15294 Senator will of- America in an main on the books. This the travel he do? He condemned to the new Criminal Liberties Union, attempt to use forum of Third World fer an amendment for what anti-American Code restoring the language of the Logan ban issue as a smokescreen radical nations, and in doing so ap- the others did. I have no and Act. Mr. Clark and paretly broke the law about dealing Mr. Clark's freedom to go mat- The Senator from Kansas and a num- quarrel with with foreign officials, on an official Attorney he wants, though it does just authority. ber of his colleagues feel the wherever ter without, any official with an investi- to me that we are applying a dou- Clark's General should proceed seem One. of the members of Mr. of the Logan. ble standard in this country when peo- the United gation under the provisions group said, upon returning to there are many arguments ple with the right kind of political Airport, that Act. While of States at Boston's Logan surrounding the question of constitu- philosophy and media ties, members going to) the con- a Presidential "The whole point (of tionality of the travel ban, the Federal the radical left, can defy represent the United people like the rela- ference was to courts have already held the Logan Act order, but ordinary Clearly Mr. Clark's group wanted of tne hostages or the Olympic States." to be valid. For instance, in the case of tives to be seen as an official U.S. delegation. athletes are denied their so-called con- Waldron against British Petroleum By urging the enforcement of the law court found- stitutional right to travel. the Company, the Federal ironic that by the passage of this amendment, No merit in plaintiff's argument that the Furthermore, it is highly make it clear that Ramsey fellow travelers to Senate can Logan Act has been abrogated by desuetude. one of Ramsey Clark's the United one was ordered prose- Clark did not represent From the absence of reprinted cases, Iran, John Gerassi, not represent our policies or deduce that the statute has not been years ago by then Attorney States, did may cuted 14 and that his condemnation of the called into play because no factual situation General, Ramsey Clark, for illegally views, United States will not pass muster with requiring its invocation has been presented traveling to North Vietnam as part of a to the courts. factfinding team for Ber- the American people. six-member, conference, have been trand Russell's International War In an interview after the Though no prosecutions Tribunal. Mr. Clark said he thought that giving the brought under the Logan Act, this 1964 Crimes is dominated that the lack President Carter may have contributed Iranian Parliament, which opinion clearly indicates party that re- Act is inclement to to the confusion by focusing attention by the Khomeini clerical of use of the Logan Ramsey Clark under the cently proposed the hostages be tried, its constitutionality. on prosecuting the hostages' fate issue before the travel ban instead of under the Logan the power to decide Mr. President, the travel ban, as some legal "sounds like- good government to me." President, the Attorney General, and all Act. The as long is crystal clear. It scholars have claimed, may limit the The hostages will remain captive the American people rights to travel. Further- as Iran sees the United States as "an is apparent that the provisions of the constitutional them, seeking to been violated by more, constitutional authorities have re- angry face, threatening Logan act may have that the Govern- bully them." Ramsey Clark also called Mr. Clark, and if so, he should be in- cently voiced doubts of ment could survive a first amendment the U.S. rescue mission in Iran an act vestigated and prosecuted. that permit news or- aggression against that country. Per- IS IT OK TO BREAK THE LAW test of regulations for ganizations, but not private citizens, to haps he would like us to apologize The President banned anyone except to Iran. The real damage that that too? He said, and I quote: those authorized from going to Iran. travel take Ramsey Clark has done to this country Human nature knows it's wrong to Ramsey Clark and his group violated Iran in violation hostages, but the hostage issue was con- act, not to mention is not simply going to of the United States that ban. The Logan but improperly verted by the arrogance banned them from inter- of the travel restrictions, into an issue of defiance. commonsense, in the conduct of U.S. foreign fering, and they evidently broke that engaging NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW affairs as a private citizen. Ramsey Clark law. It seems to me that if we want to has, in effect, usurped the authority of Mr. Clark is entitled to his opinions, maintain respect for our laws and poli- the President if he has violated the and so is the Senator from Kansas, but, cies, then. we ought to enforce them called Logan Act and for this he should be held airing his opinions in a conference when they are broken. If people want to legally accountable. to condemn America, in the city where break the laws and live by their own and THE LOGAN ACT our diplomats were taken hostage, rules, then they ought to be ready to face captive, is an entirely different ex- Mr. President, regardless of the con- still held the consequences. They should not Court said a person it too stitutionality of the President's ban on matter. The Supreme pect to have their cake and eat sight of was free to shout "fire" but not in a anymore than the rest of us. Even when travel to Iran, we must not lose set himself actually did. He crowded theater. Mr. Clark they are a former Attorney General of what Ramsey Clark of all of us in the provisions of the up as a representative the United States--no one is above the apparently violated when he went to Iran, and Act. The Logan Act has never been this country, law. Logan our policy and apologized strong unconstitutional. It is the law of condemned If Mr. Clark's convictions are so ruled in a situation where he had no why the land, it is on the books, and it should for it, that he feels he can ignore our laws, business to be. is he not willing to face up to the pun- be enforced. is he the International Emergency Some claim that Mr. Clark ought to be ishment that goes with them? Why Unlike do what he Economic Powers Act, under which the let off because the Logan Act is rarely willing to face the music to consid- invoked. For nearly as long as our Re- wants to do, but not afterward when he Justice Department is presently is the Logan Act does public has existed, the Logan Act has got to do it? What kind of conviction ering prosecution, a member not limit any constitutional right a pri- been part of the law of the land. Rarely that. But, Mr. Clark is also individual may or may not has there been a need to prosecute loyal of that special, golden segment of the vate American the one travel. The Logan Act, originally and patriotic Americans because of this political spectrum on the left, have to good things enacted as "an act to prevent usurpation provision of law. Especially in earlier that believes that laws are functions," prohibits a citi- times, when relations among sovereign only when they are reinforcing their par- of executive if with a foreign nation states where more formal and clear cut, ticular political beliefs. It is all right zen to correspond on travel with an intent to influence its conduct in perhaps, than they are now, when the the President calls for a ban relation to a controversy of the United taking of diplomats as hostages was re- to Iran where our diplomats have been It is all States, "wherever he may be." garded as an act of war, there was no held hostage for 7 long months. Thus, the Logan Act does not limit a reason for ambiguity in the disputes be- right if ordinary people who just happen tween governments. to be relatives of those hostages are pre- citizen's right to travel, nor does it au- is, thorize any Presidential bans on travel. LEGAL PRECEDENTS vented from going to Iran. But, it altogether Instead, its focus is to protect the Presi- Kansas under- apparently, another thing As the Senator from liberal coalition dent's position under article 2, section 3, was dropped when the old antiwar, stands it, the Logan Act and join a group of of the Constitution as the sole repre- the new revision of the Criminal wants to go over from Third World nations in sentative of the United States in dealing to be considered by this anti-American Code, scheduled United States. with foreign nations. session of Congress, not for any reason condemning the EASY MORALITY A CLEAR VIOLATION based in law, justice or right, but merely CHEAP HEROICS; And those provisions of the law are because it seldom needed to be used. First, we get a ban on travel to Iran. exactly the ones Ramsey Clark evidently Mr. Clark's trips to Hanoi and Tehran Then, we let a small group with the right broke when he arrived in Iran. What did demonstrate a need for that law to re- kind of liberal philosophy go over to an June 18, 1980 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD- SENATE 15295 anti-American conference in Tehran, One, I. share the concern of many of I think in this case, my answer would condemn their own country, and then my constituents in Vermont of the trip be, yes, that we have a right to reflect let them come back to the United States made by Mr. Clark. I am not going to go our views. We are elected officials. with no intention of prosecution. Large into it to try to determine whether it was Mr. LEAHY. Mr. President, I ask the segments of the media make Ramsey well intentioned or poorly intentioned. Senator from Kansas, would this also Clark into some kind of semi-hero for That is really not the issue. I think it is apply to the parents of the hostages who "having the courage of his convictions." unfortunate, with what is going on in went over contrary to the travel ban It just seems to the Senator from Kansas Iran, that the Iranian Government, of by the President? that this is pretty cheap heroics, and an whatever nature it might be, sees a per- Mr. DOLE. No, I think there would be easy morality, when you know you can son who held a high office in this country a distinction there. ignore your country's laws and come back speaking, in effect, for this country. I am not talking about the travel ban. to all the talk shows and news interview I think, with all the problems that we I think that is the red herring. shows to crow about it without fear of are faced with in Iran, the U.S; Govern- Mr. LEAHY. Would it apply .to Con- prosecution. ment should speak only with one voice gressman HANSEN who went over? The Senator from Kansas does not be- and we should not have either present Mr. DOLE. Had he gone over without lieve it was right for Mr. Clark to go to governmental officials or former govern- authority to engage in a conference on Iran as a private citizen, set himself up mental officials in Iran speaking as crimes against America, I would sug- as a quasi-official representative of our though they are speaking for the U.S. gest, yes, but he did not do that. country, and then to condemn the United Government. I am sure the Senator Mr. LEAHY. Would it apply to him States-as he did-while 53 Americans from Kansas would agree with that when he went over and spoke on behalf are still held hostage. basic statement. of what the position of the U.S. Govern- It is the belief of the Senator from I would also point out, Mr. President, ment was? Kansas and the two dozen cosponsors of that prior to coming to the Senate, and Mr. DOLE. It applies to everybody, let Senate Resolution 456 that Mr. Clark's after my years in private practice, I was us put it that way. The Logan Act is still group should be liable to prosecution. By a prosecutor for nearly 9 years. During on the books and I assume it is looked the passage of this amendment, the Sen- that time, I was cons'dered probably the at from time to time. I am not trying to ate can go on record supporting the ex- toughest and meanest prosecutor our make any exceptions in this case. peditious investigation by the Attorney State has ever had. I believed in very, Mr. LEAHY. Mr. President, I am try- General of Mr. Clark's apparent violation very strict enforcement of the laws and ing to fully understand this in my own of the Logan Act, avoid the smokescreen I believed in applying them equally to mind. I am just wondering if, the way about the right to travel, and concen- people, whether they held high political this is written, would it not also apply trate on the real damage the Tehran 10 office or no political office, or whatever to the parents of the hostages who have have done to this country. their econom'c strata. teen over there and would it not also ap- The Senator from Kansas would just Having said that, I also felt that dur- ply to the Congressman from Idaho who like to add that the following Senators ing that time I never would have stood went over? were cosponsors of his original resolu- for any legislature or any Governor or I should add that the Senator from tion, Senate Resolution 456: Mr. BAKER, any Congress or any President telling Kansas knows, from conversations on Mr. STEVENS, Mr. DOMENICI, Mr. GARN, me, as a prosecutor, how I should or this floor and off this floor, I carry no Mr. GOLDWATER, Mr. HATCH, Mr. HAYA- should not prosecute. brief with the actions of Mr. Clark. I KAWA, Mr. HEINZ, Mr. HUDDLESTON, Mr. And I wonder-and my question to the think it was grandstanding at best, and HELMS, Mr. HUMPHREY, Mr. JEPSEN, Mr. Senator from Kansas-are we overstep- I really do not agree with Americans go- LAXALT, Mr. LUGAR, Mr. COCHRAN, Mr. ping our bounds here by having the Con- ing over at a time like this when the BYRD of Virginia, Mr. SIMPSON, Mr. gress tell the prosecutor for the country United States should be speaking in one THURMOND, Mr. TOWER, Mr. WARNER, and whom he should or should not prosecute? voice and expressing what appears to the Mr. SCHMITT. Mr. DOLE. Well, the Senator from world, or at least to the Iranians, to be I frankly disagree with the President Kansas, having been here during the the position of the U.S. Government. But in his public comments on the case. It Watergate days and having listened to a I am also very, very concerned, and I does seem to me he still is the President great deal of direction coming from Con- must admit my own bias as a former of the United States, and I guess he could gress in the event of the special Water- prosecutor of having a legislative body instruct the Attorney General to in- gate committees and special directions tell the prosecutor who to prosecute or vestigate. But as far as this Senator and directives and statements and every- not, because I could see us coming in to- knows there has been no investigation thing else on the Senate floor, I would morrow, for examole, and telling the Justice Department under the Logan Act. Instead we have say, on that basis, and on another basis, who not to had all this talk about the first amend- if somebody robbed a bank, I would not prosecute. to travel, the right to free be up here discussing that somebody For example, we could come in and ment right of speech. The Senator from Kansas is not ought to instruct the Attorney General say, "Don't prosecute any Member focusing on that issue at all. As I said, to investigate. Congress who is indicted for any type that may be a But we are talking about the foreign of crime," or "Don't prosecute a member as far as I am concerned, "Do pros- red herring. policy and about a matter that is very of the President's Cabinet," or Mr. LEAHY. Mr. President, will the sensitive, that has been discussed by ecute a member of the President's Cabi- way. Senator yield for a question? every Member of this body, been dis- net," or whichever cussed by the President, been discussed I just wonder if that is something that Mr. DOLE. Mr. President, how much role, whether time does the Senator from Kansas have by his opponents. We are talking about, steps out of our legislative our legislative role is not one of enacting remaining? basically and essentially, the freedom leaving it to the pros- The PRESIDING OFFICER. The of the American hostages. the laws and then ecutors to prosecute. Senator. has 8 minutes remaining. I just suggest, particularly in view of are some very real let me see I must admit, there Mr. DOLE. Mr. President, the President's travel ban, when you just because I could see a if I can finish in 8 minutes. concerns in this, travel with .mpunity to Iran, as Ram- legislative body telling them not to pros- Mr. LEAHY. Mr. President, if the sey Clark did-I see some of the liberal ecute if they could tell them to pros- Senator would allow me, I would be glad editors saying, "Well, it was foolish, but ecute. I am also concerned, if we pass to ask the Senator from Arizona (Mr. we shouldn't do anything with Mr. this, what if somebody overly diligent DECONCINI) for time on his time to ask Clark." might say it also applies to all these other a question. I do not have any quarrel with Mr. categories that I have mentioned. Mr. DECONCINI. Mr. President, I Clark, because he has been doing this Mr. DOLE. Mr. President, I would, in yield to the Senator from Vermont. most of his adult life. He and Jane response to that. call the Senator's at- Mr. LEAHY. Mr. President, first, if Fonda went to Hanoi and tried to settle tention to the Congressional Research the Senator from Kansas will bear with that. And I understand that was not Service document dated October 31, 1978, me a moment just to make a -couple of very successful; it did not help the pris- report 78-212-A, with reference to the quick points before asking the question. oners of war. Logan Act, and particularly with two 15296 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD- SENATE June 18, 1980 Department of State opinions. The two a big boy and he has to face the conse- to make clear, that we do not condone Department of State opinions dealt with quences. My question really is, Would that action, that the Attorney General the activities of two Senators and former this same sense of the Senate have refer- ought to investigate it, and, if there is a President Nixon being questioned vio- ence to and directicn to the President, as violation-if there is a violation-there lating the Logan Act. the Senator from Kansas would inter- should be a prosecution. In both cases, the Department did not pret it, to bring actions against the Con- Mr. President, I reserve the remainder consider the activities to be inconsistent gressman from Idaho who went to Iran? of my time. with the Logan Act. The first opinion Is that the Senator's interpretation? Mr. THURMOND. Will the distin- concerned the question of certain activ- Mr. DOLE. Mr. President, I have just guished Senator yield? ities of Senator John Sparkman and stated two State Department opinions. Mr. DOLE. I yield. Senator GEORGE MCGOVERN with respect Of course, he went before the travel ban UP AMENDMENT NO. 1195, AS MODIFIED to the Government of Cuba. was made, but I am not talking about Mr. THURMOND. Mr. President, I The opinion stated: the travel ban, I am talking about the think we might get around some of the The clear intent of this provision (Logan Logan Act. I have suggested two opinions complications and some of the objections Act) is to prohibit unauthorized persons from the State Department with refer- that have been raised. I have reference from intervening in disputes between the ence to Members of Congress who to the remarks of Senator DECONCINI governments. United States and foreign traveled to Cuba and former President and Senator LEAHY, former district at- Nothing in Section 953, however, would ap- to the People's of the Congress Nixon who traveled torneys. pear to restrict members China. The act says very from engaging in discussions with foreign Republic of I think perhaps we could modify the officials in pursuance of their legislative specifically, "to go without authority of amendment in this way: duties under the Constitution. the United States." "It is the sense of the Congress that" In the opinion by the State Depart- and eliminate the next three lines and is the key I would say "unauthorized" ment, they held that as Members of Con- insert this wording in lieu thereof, "the word. gress they had the authority. I would as- Attorney General be urged to do his duty With reference to an opinion by Am- sume everyone in this Chamber sooner it appears there in reference to a let- in those instances where bassador McCloskey, or later travels somewhere. For some has been a violation of the Logan Act." ter to Senator John Tunney concerning it is a mission and for others it is a visit to the I think that would accomplish that former President Nixon's junket. But they travel somewhere and time, it China, the letter same purpose and, at the same People's Republic of talk to foreign leaders, and I assume does not tell the President to instruct stated: they do it with authority. That is the key the Attorney General. It removes that. Mr. Nixon's visit to the People's Republic his word. Mr. DOLE. Mr. President, I do not of China was undertaken entirely in own time, I would capacity as a private United States citizen. To continue on my have any real reason for the President In accordance with the expressed wishes of guess that probably Ramsey Clark is not to instruct the Attorney General. I have the Government of the People's Republic of concerned about the test. In fact, I think some doubts in my own mind that the China and as a normal matter of comity be- he suggested in a press conference when President should comment on the case. tween governments, the U.S. Government he returned to this country that if there But I guess he still has the right to in- permitted an aircraft from the People's Re- was going to be a test, that was fine. struct the Attorney General's office to public of China to land in California in con- There is nothing in the resolution that investigate. nection with the visit. passes judgment on anyone. The resolu- Mr. THURMOND. Mr. President, he So I think there is a clear distinction. tion does not single out anyone. The does have the right. But with Congress Ramsey Clark has been a gadfly for resolution says, as I have said before, taking action in this way, we have ju- years. Ramsey Clark is a former Attor- that it ought to be investigated. risdiction over the Justice Department ney General. Ramsey Clark understands There have been no convictions under and, therefore, I think we would be the law. Ramsey Clark knew the law the Logan Act. Some would say it has within our propriety or right if we when he left. In fact, some people did no force and effect, but I suggest that worded it this way. President's travel are other statutes that have been not go because of the there PRESIDING OFFICER. All time be- books as long as the Logan Act The ban and some may have stayed here on the Senator from Kansas has expired. Logan Act. which are still in fullforce and effect. of the cause of the THURMOND. Mr. President, is Mr. President, I just suggest that in There was an effort to repeal the Mr. Senator from Kansas willing to ac- these extreme cases, and this is an ex- Logan Act. For example, the distin- the cept that modification? treme case-we are talking about the guished Senator from Massachusetts Mr. DOLE. May I look at it? lives of 53 American people-I believe (Mr. KENNEDY) wished to delete the the Senate ought to act. We are sup- Logan Act from the bill to amend the I might say that it is my understand- porting the President with this resolu- U.S. Criminal Code, but the late Senator ing that it does not violate the law if tion. We ought to say to the Attorney Allen, of Alabama. insisted on reenacting families go over and discuss a matter ex- General, if he is not listening, to take a the act in exchange for prompt and not with foreign officials. The Logan Act look at the Logan Act. to investigate prolonged debate over the bill. Senator empts conduct involving personal mat- what Mr. Clark and others did under KENNEDY agreed to this. ters and I believe the family relation- the Logan Act, and to make a deter- I just suggest that the Logan Act is ship qualifies as personal. and well. It has been asleep, but it Mr. LEAHY. Mr. President, will the mination. alive 1 min- I am not passing judgment on Mr. is there. Senator from Arizona yield for Clark. I am just saying let us not sweep It seems clear to the Senator from ute? it under the rug. Kansas, and I would hope that we would Mr. DECONCINI. I yield. Mr. LEAHY. Mr. President, I am not proceed to reflect the views of our con- Mr. LEAHY. Mr. President, I should making a point of agreeing with U.S. stituents because this is a matter that point out to the Senator from Kansas citizens speaking for the U.S. Govern- involves foreign policy, it is a matter that that it is not the intention of the Sena- ment when they are not authorized to involves the safety and the lives of 53 tor from Vermont to raise any red her- do so, but they can also bring judgment Americans. In fact, it was a matter that, ring here. I tried to make very clear my against the parents of hostages over until about 30 days ago the President own real concern about Mr. Clark or any- there in seeking to influence the Iranian talked about every day. All of a sudden body else seeking to speak for me or for Government. - it was put on the back burner for reasons the U.S.. Government in this matter. I yield back the remaining time to the unknown to this Senator. The U.S. Government should speak for Senator from Arizona. I just suggest that if it is that im- the U.S. Government, and nobody else. I Mr. DECONCINI. Mr. President, I portant, and it is that important, then am very concerned about that. I state would like to ask one question of the we ought to serve notice on anyone else only that, looking at this as a former Senator from Kansas, since he is making who travels without authority, who en- prosecutor and now as a legislator. my reference to Ramsey Clark. I am out- ters into correspondence or any other very real concern is about a legislative raged with what the Attorney General intercourse with foreign nations involved body telling prosecutors who to prose- did. He ought to know better, but he is in a dispute with America, and we ought cute, because, by the same token, and an June 18, 1980 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE 15297 proposes a substitute un- equally dangerous thing, they can tell applied equally to everyone, regardless ROBERT C.-BYRD) what position he might have held printed amendment numbered 1196 to un- prosecutors who not to prosecute. of printed amendment numbered 1195, as In either way you come out with un- before. modified: equal handling of the law. However, the committee has some In lieu of the language proposed to be The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Sen- strong feelings on this side as to this inserted, insert the following: ator from South Carolina. particular issue, the Logan Act included. SEC. 120(a). The Congress finds that: Mr. THURMOND. Mr. President, I I am not prepared to accept the amend- (1) The government of Iran continues to citizens in defi- will send to the desk a modification as ment in behalf of the committee. hold hostage 53 American ance of international law; and soon as it is written. It would do this: I can inform the Senataor from Kan- will cast a (2) The Congress of the United States it would strike from the amendment of sas that I will be one who continues to urge the government of Iran to the distinguished Senator from Kansas vote for him. release the hostages immediately; and lines 17, 18, and 19 on page 2 of his Mr. DOLE. Mr. President, I wonder if (3) The Congress of the United States amendment, and insert in lieu thereof: the Senator from Arizona will yield me fully supports every diplomatic effort by the the Attorney General be urged to do his duty a minute or two? United States government, foreign govern- in those instances wherein it appears there Mr. DECONCINI. I yield 2 minutes to ments, and international bodies, to secure has been a violation of the Logan Act. the Senator from Kansas. the immediate release of the hostages; and Senator (4) The Senate on November 28, 1979, by Mr. DOLE. Mr. President, I ask that Mr. DOLE. Mr. President, the that there a prose- a vote of 98-0, expressed its sense my amendment be so modified. from Kansas is a lawyer and was must be an immediate, safe, and uncondi- The PRESIDING OFFICER. Is there cutor, as was the Senator from Vermont, tional release of U.S. hostages, that the little prosecu- objection? Will the Senator send the but maybe we just have American people and their representatives is more their determination and modification to the desk? tions in Kansas. But I think there are united in efforts to achieve the release of the hos- Without objection, the amendment is at stake here than an attack on Ramsey Clark or an effort to support the Presi- tages, and that the United Nations should so modified. take all measures necessary, to secure the The amendment, as modified, is as dent, who seems to indicate that, while right in Novem- release of the hostages. follows: Ramsey Clark was all (5) The Senate on December 15, 1979, On page 61, between lines 10 and 11, insert ber, he is not so good in June. called upon the followers of the religion of the following: It seems to me that we are involved Islam throughout the world to prevail upon SEc. 120. (a) The Congress finds that- in a much bigger problem. That is to dis- their brethren to permit the Americans (1) the Government of Iran has continued courage everybody from going over and being wrongfully held hostage in Iran to to act in a hostile manner toward the Gov- condemning America to the Iranian Gov- return home immediately, by a vote of ernment of the United States since it seized ernment, and perhaps jeopardize the 93-0; and American diplomatic personnel on November (6) The Senate agreed by voice vote on safety of our hostages-who knows? 1979, to fully support the 4, 1979; anybody who says December 20, (2) certain citizens and residents of the I do not know of President's efforts and the cooperative United States have collaborated in this hos- Ramsey Clark did any good. He got a lot efforts to other nations and international tility by condemning and insulting their own of media coverage, he was on television organizations, to win the freedom of Amer- country; every night denouncing America. He was icans being held captive in Iran. (3) the Government of Iran conducted a confessing our "sins" for the past 28 (b) It is the sense of the Congress that: "sham" tribunal, falsely represented as an as- years. That may have done a lot for some (1) Congress opposes efforts by private sessment of "crimes of America", at which the citizens, undertaken without approval of the in this country, but what did it do to to involve them- certain citizens and residents of the United hostages or, for that United States government, States attended at the request and expense of hostages or for the selves in negotiations regarding the hostages; Iran; matter, for our policy toward Iran or and (4). the only means of preventing the dan- anybody else? (2) Congress deplores such actions as gerous and damaging actions of those Ameri- For all I know, they might think that counterproductive, subject to misrepresenta- can participants in such anti-American prop- Ramsey Clark speaks with some author- tion. and undertaking the unity of purpose aganda, short of a declaration of war against ity. He does not. He should not. All I feel necessary to gain the hostages release; and Iran, is the active enforcement of section 953 is that the Attorney General should stop (3) Calls on all Americans to support the of title i8. United States Code (hereafter in United States government's efforts to nego- looking at the so-called travel ban and the hostages; and this section referred to as "the Logan Act"); the tiate the release of (5) the Logan Act provides that any citizen start looking at the real violation, (4) Supports the enforcement of any ap- of the United States, wherever he may be, Logan Act. The language suggested by plicable statutes that may be violated in who, without authority of the United States, the distinguished ranking member of the the course of private negotiating initiatives. directly or indirectly commences or carries on Judiciary Committee (Mr. THURMOND) any correspondence or intercourse with any narrows it down to that. (Mr. HARRY F. BYRD, JR., assumed foreign government or any officer or agent I am not going to argue with the right the chair). thereof, with intent to influence the measures to travel, or the right to free speech. I Mr. DOLE. Mr. President, will the ma- or conduct of any foreign government or of agree with the President that there jority leader yield? We do not have a any officer or agent thereof, in relation to any might is a question whether the act could apply copy of the amendment here. The press disputes or controversies with the United has it; we do not have it. States, or to defeat the measures of the or does apply. If he sees a violation, he ROBERT C. BYRD. I give the Sen- United States, shall be fined not mors than ought to say so publicly. I shall ask for Mr. 85,000 or imprisoned not more than three the yeas and nays at the appropriate time ator my copy. years, or both; and and we shall find out who supports Mr. DOLE. I thank the Senator. (6) the President by Executive order has Ramsey Clark and who does not. Mr. ROBERT C. BYRD. Mr. President, prohibited all travel by American citizens to Mr. DECONCINI. Mr. President, I sug- in foreign policy, the Nation must speak Iran as part of an overall policy of we are to securing gest the absence of a quorum. with a strong clear voice if the release of the American hostages. world. We (b) It is the sense of the Congress that- The PRESIDING OFFICER. The clerk achieve our goals in a troubled The Attorney General be urged to do his will call the roll. cannot afford to speak with many duty in these instances wherein it anpears Mr. DECONCINI. Mr. President, I ask tongues. If we do, dialog becomes there has been a violation of the Logan Act. unanimous consent that the order for the babble. Mr. DECONCINI addressed the Chair. quorum call be rescinded. Nothing so clearly illustrates this bas- Without The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Sen- The PRESIDING OFFICER. ic lesson as the plight of our hostages ator from Arizona. objection, it is so ordered. in Iran. Their freedom will be gained Mr. President, I yield Mr. DECONCINI. Mr. President, I have Mr. DECONCINI. only through persistent, patient, consid- to inform the Senator from Kansas that to the majority leader. ered negotiations. Mr. President, I think the modification offered Mr. ROBERT C. BYRD. The internal situation in Iran has by the I send an amendment to the desk and Senator from South Carolina is a real- grown increasingly chaotic over the last istic approach and, to me, within the ask for its immediate consideration. several months. The greatest difficulty realm of reasonableness, so far as I am The PRESIDING OFFICER. The that the U.S. Government has had is concerned. amendment will be stated. that no one seems to be able to speak I think what the Senator wants to do The legislative clerk read as follows: authoritatively for the Iranian Govern- is to indicate that the law ought to be The Senator from West Virginia (Mr. ment. Promises that were made were 15298 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD- SENALTE June 18, 1980 The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Sen- turn home immediately, by a vote of 93-0; broken. Useful avenues of communica- and up. ator will state it. agreed by voice vote on tion dried of the "(6) The Senate confusion on the Iranian side must Mr. DOLE. Is the amendment December 20, 1979, to fully support the The Vir- not be compounded by any ambiguity or distinguished Senator from West President's efforts and the cooperative efforts doubt on this side. We must not allow ginia subject to further amendment? of other nations and international organiza- It is a be- any question to be raised as to who The PRESIDING OFFICER. tions, to win the freedom of -Americans Government in our second-degree amendment and not sub- ing held captive in Iran. speaks for the U.S. "(b) It Is the sense of the Congress that: efforts to negotiate the release of the ject to further amendment. Mr. President, I suggest "(1) Congress opposes efforts by private hostages. Mr. DOLE. of the quorum. citizens, undertaken without approval In negotiations with other govern- the absence of a United States government, to involve them- ments, only the President or his desig- The PRESIDING OFFICER. On whose selves in negotiations regarding the hostages; nated representative can speak for the time? and U.S. Government. Mr. DOLE. Unless there is objection "(2) Congress deplores such actions as The Iranians have initiated an inter- equally divided. counterproductive, subject to misrepresen- to inquire into the so- The PRESIDING OFFICER. Is there tation, and undermining the unity of pur- national tribunal pose necessary to gain the hostages release; called past interference of the United objection? Mr. DECONCINI. Reserving the right and States in Iran. This would be just an- "(3) Calls on all Americans to support the other regrettable propaganda effort were to object, Mr. President-- efforts to nego- President, United States government's it not for the decision of a handful of Mr. ROBERT C. BYRD. Mr. tiate the. release of the hostages; and American citizens to participate in this I have no objection. I ask it not be "(4) Supports the enforcement of any inquiry. charged to either side. applicable statutes not excluding the Logan I believe that these people, whatever The PRESIDING OFFICER. Without Act or any other Act that may be violated will be used for anti- objection, it is so ordered. in the course of private negotiating their motives, initiatives." American propaganda. I believe that this Mr. ROBERT C. BYRD. Mr. President, whole affair is unfortunate and that it I ask unanimous consent it be charged Mr. DOLE. Mr. President, will the Sen- has attracted altogether too much at- on the bill, equally divided on the bill. ator yield? tention. The best way to rob this exer- The PRESIDING OFFICER. Is there Mr. ROBERT C. BYRD. I yield. cise of its propaganda value is to ignore objection? Mr. DOLE. I thank the distinguished it. I intend to ignore it as much as pos- Without objection, it is so ordered. majority leader for making that change. sible. The clerk will call the roll. I have discussed it with the distin- However, I believe that there is one The legislative clerk proceeded to call guished minority leader, who is inter- question that deserves to be made as the roll. ested in this matter, also, and I believe clear .as possible, to the people of the Mr. ROBERT C. BYRD. Mr. President, it satisfies our concerns. United States, to Iranians, and to peo- I ask unanimous consent that the order I do not see any need to have a roll- ple around the world: Those Americans for the quorum call be rescinded. call vote. I believe we are in agreement. who have decided to participate in this The PRESIDING OFFICER. Without We are not trying to pick out any one inquiry are private citizens, and private objection, it is so ordered. person or any one act. citizens only. They do not represent the Mr. ROBERT C. BYRD. Mr. President, This makes it clear that we look at all Government of the United States. They I modify my amendment as follows: the statutes that might apply, including do not represent the people of the United On page 2, paragraph numbered 4, at the Logan Act, or not excluding the States. They represent only themselves. the bottom of the rage. by inserting the Logan Act. Those Americans who have chosen to words "not excluding the Logan Act or Mr. BAKER. Mr. President, will the participate in this inquiry should not be any other act," after the word "stat- Senator yield? construed by anyone as representing the utes." So that the sentence would read Mr. ROBERT C. BYRD. I yield. United States in word or deed. This is as follows: Mr. BAKER. Mr. President, this is a the point that I want to make very clear. Supports the enforcement of any applic- good solution to the questionf at hand. It This is the purpose behind the resolu- able statutes, not excluding the Logan Act carries out the purpose that is sought to tion that I am offering. or any other act that might be violated in the Senator from Kansas the course of private negotiating initiatives. be served by This resolution does four things: It and the Senator from West Virginia, the puts the Congress on record as opposing The PRESIDING OFFICER. The majority leader. efforts by private citizens to involve amendment is so modified. I, too, see no need for a rollcall vote. themselves in negotiations regarding the The modified amendment is as I believe there is virtually unanimous hostages; it deplores private negotiating follows: agreement on this language, and I pro- initiatives as counterproductive, subject In lieu of the language proposed to be pose that we have a voice vote. to misrepresentation, and undermin- inserted, insert the following: Mr. ROBERT C. BYRD. I thank the ing the unity of purpose necessary if we "SEc. 120. (a) The Congress finds that: Senator. are to gain the release of the hostages; "(1) The government of Iran.continues to Mr. THURMOND. Mr. President, will it calls on all Americans to support the hold hostage 53 American citizens in defi- the Senator yield? ance of international law; and Government's efforts to negotiate the "(2) The Congress of the United States Mr. DECONCINI. I yield. release of the hostages; and supports continues to urge the government of Iran Mr. THURMOND. Mr. President, I feel the enforcement of any applicable stat- to release the hostages immediately; and that the amendment as offered by the utes that may be violated in the course "(3) The Congress of the United States distinguished Senator from West Vir- of private negotiating initiatives. fully supports every diplomatic effort by the ginia, as amended with the insertion of Let any ambiguity that may have been United States government, foreign govern- the words he has indicated, is satisfac- created by.this affair be ended here and ments, and international bodies, to secure tory and carries out the intent and pur- now with clear and decisive support for the immediate release of the hostages; and poses that the able Senator from Kansas this resolution: "(4) The Senate on November 28, 1979, by it a vote of 98-0, expressed its sense that there had in mind originally; and I believe Mr. DOLE. Mr. President, a parlia- must be an immediate, safe, and uncondi- will accomplish the purpose he envi- mentary inquiry. tional release of U.S. hostages, that the sioned when he offered the amendment. The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Sen- American people and their representatives I am pleased to support it. ator will state it. are united in their determination and efforts Mr. DECONCINI. Mr. President, I sup- Mr. DOLE. Is there 10 minutes on a to achieve the release of the hostages, and port the amendment, also. The commit- side? that the United Nations should take all tee is agreeable to this solution, and we The PRESIDING OFFICER. Ten min- measures necessary to secure the release of are willing to accept the amendment. the hostages. utes for the, minority leader or his desig- "(5) The Senate on December 15. 1979, I yield back the remainder of my time. nee and 10 minutes for the authors of called upon the followers of the religion of Mr. ROBERT C. BYRD. Mr. President, the resolution. Islam throughout the world to prevail upon I yield back the remainder of my time. Mr. DOLE. Mr. President, a further their brethren to permit the Americans be- The PRESIDING OFFICER. The parliamentary inquiry. ing wrongfully held hostage in Iran to re- question is on the substitute amendment