Thursday Volume 522 3 February 2011 No. 111

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Thursday 3 February 2011

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Richard Benyon: We will be consulting the industry House of Commons shortly about changes in the operation of our domestic fleet and about how we can help it to secure greater Thursday 3 February 2011 sustainability. The issue really comes down to the sustainability of stock. Approximately 1% of the egg survey is in Icelandic waters. There is an obvious way in The House met at half-past Ten o’clock which the Icelanders can negotiate. I urge them to operate in the way that we do across fisheries—to sit down and talk, rather than acting unilaterally. PRAYERS Fish Discards [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] 2. Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con): What steps she is taking to reduce fish discards; and if she will Oral Answers to Questions make a statement. [37796] 3. Matthew Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con): What steps she is taking to reduce fish discards; and if she will make a statement. [37797] ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS 6. Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): What steps her The Secretary of State was asked— Department is taking to reduce fish discards. [37800]

Mackerel Quota The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): 1. Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) The United Kingdom Government are pursuing a policy (Lab/Co-op): What recent discussions she has had with of minimising discards through the reform of the common her EU counterparts on mackerel quota. [37795] fisheries policy in 2012. Work is also being undertaken domestically with our fishing industry to increase the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for selectivity of fishing and to improve the utilisation of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): the remaining unavoidable fish catches. Levels of discards I have had various discussions about north Atlantic from the UK fleet have been decreasing year on year mackerel, including discussions with Maria Damanaki, since 2002. I am committed to taking further action. the EU Fisheries Commissioner, and discussions at Council of Ministers meetings in Brussels in December. Nigel Adams: Are there any lessons to be learned Our discussions centred on hugely increased catches by from countries such as Norway, Iceland and the Faroe Iceland and the Faroe Islands, and their failure to agree Islands, which have managed to replenish their fish on stock management measures. In the light of that, the stocks and in which the common fisheries policy has EU Commission agreed to table proposals for sanctions completely failed? against both Iceland and the Faroe Islands if no agreement was possible in the near future. Richard Benyon: It is beyond doubt that the common fisheries policy is broken. It is based on a centralised Tom Greatrex: The Minister will be aware of the top-down system, and we must reform it by decentralising Icelandic Government’s comment that the proposal to it. We must also make the management of our fisheries block Icelandic vessels from landing mackerel in European relevant to the way in which we manage the marine Union ports is neither surprising nor effective, given environment as a whole. that most of their catches are landed at Icelandic ports. We can learn lessons from other countries. As our Is it not time that the matter was dealt with seriously, exchanges on the previous question made clear, they are and should not Iceland’s accession to the EU be put on not repositories of pure virtue, but there are certainly hold until the dispute is resolved? It is having a hugely lessons that we can learn about the local and regional disruptive influence on a core economic interest in sea base and management. Scotland. Matthew Hancock: Was the Minister as shocked as I Richard Benyon: I entirely agree. My consultations was by a recent television documentary about fish discards? with Maria Damanaki and others across the Government I was appalled by what fishermen who work so hard have centred on the proposition that when a country is have to do because of the rules. Will the Minister assure seeking to join a club, tearing up the rule book before it me that he has been working on the issue not just since even enters is strange behaviour. We aim to ensure that the public outcry, but since the moment that he was Iceland’s accession is seen in the light of its actions in given the job? relation to the fish stock. Richard Benyon: I applaud the Fish Fight campaign, Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): I agree which has been conducted very ably by Hugh Fearnley- that if we are to have quota rules, they must be obeyed. Whittingstall. My one criticism is of the line that the Has the Minister any other views on quotas— specifically fight back starts here. I should say in fairness to in relation to fishermen in the under-10-metre sector—that the previous Government that the fight back started he might wish to include in his discussions so that we do many years ago—and the present Government, too, not experience another crisis in the summer? have worked extremely hard on catch quotas, fishing for 1015 Oral Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Oral Answers 1016 the market, and a variety of measures to reduce the zones. Will the Minister update the House on what he is number of discards. I am happy to work with anyone. doing to ensure that there are more of these zones, not We need to win public support and, in that regard, the only in British waters, but overseas? programme was a great success. Richard Benyon: We are progressing with the Tony Baldry: Speaking as the last Conservative Fisheries implementation of the Marine and Coastal Access Act Minister in the Major Government, I can tell my hon. 2009, which will result in marine protected areas—marine Friend that I thought he was considerably better at conservation zones—around the coasts. We have four identifying fish at Billingsgate than I could ever have projects up and running, and I am working very hard to been. ensure that they are properly resourced and working I believe that the whole House supports my hon. towards the timetable of 2012. I very much hope that Friend on the need to reform the common fisheries they will be able to deliver on that, and I will keep the policy. Let me say to those who oppose quotas that House informed on progress. At the recent OSPAR reducing fishing and protecting fish stocks by reducing talks in Bergen I was able to support a wider proposal in effort is no easier an option, and that we must face the respect of international waters. The work we do on reality that fishermen will not want to keep their boats international fisheries and fisheries partnerships is key in port. to ensuring that fishery conservation measures not only apply in our own waters, but are followed up elsewhere. Richard Benyon: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his kind words. When interviewed at five o’clock in the Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): Does morning, I would be hard pressed to recognise my own the Minister agree that, as Denmark has shown, further children, let alone fish stocks. I am grateful to my action can be taken by this Government, in conjunction friends and enemies who have sent me fish charts, with with the devolved Administrations, to cut discard levels which I wiled away the long winter evenings. He rightly this year? Will he seek approval for an increase in the says that there is no one-size-fits-all solution to this scope of this year’s catch quota trials, which half the problem; there are opportunities to increase effort control, Scottish white fish fleet expressed an interest in joining? but we also have to deal with the problem of quotas. Will he pledge to incentivise investment in more selective That is a problem in a mixed fishery and it has been part nets and in on-ship CCTV to monitor what stocks are of the driver towards the number of discards, which we being taken from the sea? Would those measures, together are so keen to reduce. with radical reform of the CFP, not add up to an effective national action plan to end for good this Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): I appalling waste of good quality fish? know that the Minister is well aware of the pioneering efforts made by the Scottish white fish fleet and the Mr Speaker: There were a lot of questions there, but I Scottish Government in recent years to reduce dramatically know that we will hear a pithy response from the the number of discards going into the North sea—the Minister. relevant figure is about 30%. People in coastal communities Richard Benyon: The UK Government have a very are pleased that the issue is now getting the wider clear strategy to ensure that we reduce the level of prominence it deserves and has deserved for a long time. discards and do not wait until 2012 to achieve that. Our I am grateful to him for outlining his Government’s fishing for the market scheme is addressing the 54% of commitment to radical reform of the common fisheries discards created by the fact that there is no market for policy, but I still question whether there really is the political those products. We also managed to get an extension of will across the European Union to make the kind of the catch quota trials, and I was extremely pleased changes necessary to tackle discards. We welcome his about that, because they achieve the virtue of catching commitment, but what are the realistic assessments— less but landing more. That is the holy grail of fisheries Mr Speaker: Order. We do have to have a question. I management. call the Minister. Rural Payments Agency

Richard Benyon: I am grateful for the hon. Lady’s 4. Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): What progress she has comments and I applaud the work of her constituents made on improving the performance of the Rural in trying to ensure that catch quotas work. I am glad Payments Agency. [37798] that we managed to expand the scheme in the December round. She is right to say that we have to build alliances The Minister of State, Department for Environment, across the European Union, and I am working extremely Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): Progress hard to do that in the fringes of Council meetings and continues to be made in addressing the dire legacy elsewhere. We are trying to get support at the radical described vividly in the independent review of the RPA end of the reform spectrum, so that we can achieve the published last year. Despite the issues arising from the kind of changes that mean that discards are a thing of updating of farmers’ maps and reduced staff numbers, the past and we can address the concerns raised by her the RPA met its target to pay 85% of 2010 claimants by constituents and constituents of all Members, including the end of December. But there is still much to do and it those representing inland constituencies, by ensuring will inevitably take some time to address some very that sustainability is at the heart of our fisheries long-standing problems fully. management policies. Tessa Munt: I ask the Minister to recognise the work Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): One of the of the Farm Crisis Network, particularly the work of methods of dealing with the problem of overfishing and Suzie Wilkinson, the FCN’s co-ordinator in Somerset, depleted fish stocks is the use of marine conservation and the pastoral and practical support it gives to farmers 1017 Oral Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Oral Answers 1018 working under stress. In Somerset, there were 12 new Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): Will the Secretary cases in January, 10 of whom are owed something like of State tell the House the projected figures for the next £295,000. Farmers face eviction by banks, are unable to 10 years for the revenue that will come from the public pay for feed and some may have to sell their stock forest estate? Will that revenue be offset by the benefit because of TB problems. Will the Minister ensure that to the Exchequer from the sale of such land? the RPA accelerates the cases of Somerset farmers, such as Bob Pether, whose payments have been incorrect Mrs Spelman: Different types of forest are subject to every year since— different proposals in our consultation document, which is a genuine consultation. The planned sales—a continuation Mr Speaker: Order. We are grateful to the hon. Lady. of the previous Government’s programme—are expected to raise £100 million over the spending review period. Mr Paice: I have huge admiration for the work of the That will be part of DEFRA’s overall provision within Farm Crisis Network, which I have visited and met on a that period. number of occasions. The hon. Lady is right to say that it supports some very hard-pressed farmers, particularly Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): I welcome small farmers, for whom the single farm payment is a the Secretary of State’s genuine consultation over the major part of their income and without which they next 11 weeks—12 weeks in all. When will she make a would be in desperate straits. I am determined that the statement to the House after the consultation has finished? RPA should find a way forward to get some cash into the hands of those people as soon as possible. If she Mrs Spelman: First, we need to make it absolutely would like to write to me about particular cases, I would clear that this is a genuine consultation, unlike a lot of be happy to pursue them. the consultations that I experienced under the previous Government. We want as many people to take part as possible. There is a statutory three-month period; Ministers Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab): Will the will reflect on relevant considerations and bring to the Minister tell us how many staff will be cut from the House our considered view in a timely fashion. RPA as a result of the 30% departmental spending cuts? Will he also explain how that will speed up payments to farmers? Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab): Public access is absolutely vital to local communities. The Secretary of State talks about her consultation period, but before Mr Paice: The hon. Lady assumes that the RPA was that period is over, the Government will start selling off working efficiently, but it certainly was not, as the 10,000 hectares of public forest land. That is more than previous question demonstrates. Yes, the reduction in was sold in Labour’s entire period in office. I should like overall public expenditure means that the RPA is having to know what right communities will have to bid for to take a reduction in staff alongside all other arm’s that land. How long will they have to raise the money? length bodies, but at the same time it is becoming far Will it be sold as leasehold, and is it correct that the more efficient, with better work practices and a new selection for this year deliberately avoids woodlands chief executive who started a fortnight ago. I am convinced that give public benefits because the Government want we can do better with less. to maximise the capital raised from assets?

Forests Mrs Spelman: The criteria for the planned sales are set out in the public domain on the Forestry Commission 7. Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): What plans website. They are a continuation of a programme of she has to ensure that access to forests is maintained or sales that have taken place over the past three decades. improved. [37801] As the hon. Lady knows, her party’s Government sold off 25,000 acres—[Interruption]—without the protection that this Government will provide. The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): The public forest Mary Creagh: Hon. Members cry “Shame,” but we estate consultation explores a range of models for the sold that off to reinvest the money in the forest; this ownership and management of the estate and how money is to be reinvested in flood defence schemes. The important public benefits such as access can be maintained. land will be sold with no higher rights of public access. An example would be how lease conditions could be Government Members should think very carefully about used to ensure that access and other public benefits are what is happening. Is it not the case that, on the public protected. forest, the Secretary of State does not know what she is doing, does not know why she is doing it, and nobody Dr Huppert: In addition to established legal rights of wants her to do it? Is it not time to stop and think way and Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000 again? access rights, will the Secretary of State ensure that there are robust additional protections for access rights Mrs Spelman: I think the hon. Lady was not listening that are currently permitted access only, and will she clearly last night. Ministers have repeatedly given assurances safeguard existing access for bikes and horses? in this House that access and other public benefits will be protected. However, many of the pieces of land that Mrs Spelman: We had a lengthy debate last night in fit the criteria the Forestry Commission has set out do which I made it clear, at length, that permissive access not have access attached to them at present. She should rights are very limited in number and are on land that reflect carefully on our public consultation document the public forest estate does not own. and gain a better understanding of what happened 1019 Oral Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Oral Answers 1020 when Rigg wood was sold off under the conditions set the combination of direct payments and the payments by her party’s Government in their contract: without under pillar 2—in particular, in this country, the way we protection, access is now denied. use agri-environment stewardship schemes—that balances best the environmental benefits with food production. Ivory Trade That is why the coalition Government are committed to increasing by 80% higher level stewardship. 8. Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD): What steps she is taking to reduce the volume of international trade in Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) ivory. [37802] (PC): The Secretary of State will be aware of the unease among farmers in Wales and the Welsh Government The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for about the UK Government’s current position on CAP Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): reform. Will she inform the House what progress she is The UK supports the global ban on the international making in developing a joint negotiating position? trade in raw ivory imposed in 1989. While occasional one-off sales have been permitted in the past, we are Mrs Spelman: My right hon. Friend the Minister of working to ensure that no further sales of ivory take State and I took the opportunity to invite the Welsh place without firm evidence that such sales will reduce Minister for Agriculture to meet the Commissioner poaching. In the UK, we employ stricter domestic with us as early as June last year. We have had successive measures than those required under the convention on meetings with all the devolved Administrations and will international trade in endangered species concerning continue to do so, as the reform process is likely to take the trade in ivory. a great deal of time. I find that we have much in common with the Welsh Assembly’s position and believe Mr Sanders: I think the Government are doing a that there is much that we can do as we negotiate the good job, building on the work of the previous Government, reform to ensure that we get a good deal for farmers in but there is still a great deal of concern that we are not Wales. tackling where the exchange takes place: on the internet. Do the Government have any plans to try to stop the sale of ivory through internet transactions? Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con): I ought to declare an interest as one of the few practising Richard Benyon: My hon. Friend is right to point to farmers in this country. [Interruption.] In this Parliament. that development in the illegal trade in ivory. For that Will the Secretary of State, when considering the reason, it is important that we continue to support reform of the CAP, consider that Europe will have an schemes that give us evidence: for example, MIKE, the important place in enabling agriculture to feed the monitoring of illegal killing of elephants; and—dealing world? Will she move away from the CAP’s structural precisely with his point—ETIS, the elephant trade faults, such as the growing of tobacco that is of such information system. We support those international poor quality that no one wants to use it, and ensure that efforts to make sure that we understand the problem those practices are stopped? and that we in this country have our house in order. I am impressed by the expertise found in a variety of Mrs Spelman: It is of the utmost importance that agencies and shall continue to ensure that we play our farmers in Europe are encouraged to produce more part. food and to do so sustainably. When we look at the Common Agricultural Policy threat to our society globally in relation to food security, it is clear that the nations that have the capacity to increase production sustainably are the ones that we 9. Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) should be fully behind. (LD): What steps she is taking towards reform of the common agricultural policy. [37803] Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): I mean the The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Secretary of State no harm, but as the second closet Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): The Government European in the Cabinet, does she agree that if we are have recently responded to the European Commission’s to reform the CAP it is no use agreeing only across this communication, “The CAP towards 2020”. Our response Chamber? We have to convince our Irish, Spanish, calls for ambitious reform of the CAP that will enable French and Italian friends. The isolation of her party farmers to meet the challenges and opportunities of the from the main centre-right conservative parties in Europe future. does not help.

Annette Brooke: I thank the Secretary of State for her Mrs Spelman: I have some good news for the right answer. The second pillar of the CAP provides essential hon. Gentleman: the coalition agreement states clearly support to farmers to deliver environmental public goods. that we desire to be a “positive participant” in Europe. Which of the European Commission’s proposed options My colleagues and I have set about building alliances in for reform does she think best balances the need to order to secure the reforms that will benefit taxpayers, maintain landscape and diversity with food production farmers, consumers and the environment. I am pleased and the protection of consumers and taxpayers? to report that he will find that the position of our traditional friends—the Scandinavian countries and the Mrs Spelman: The whole of the Commission’s Netherlands—and that of the German, English and proposed reform of the CAP should address the twin Welsh farming unions is very close. That is the kind of challenges that the hon. Lady describes. Obviously, it is alliance that brings about changes. 1021 Oral Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Oral Answers 1022

Bees On insurance, we are working closely with the Association of British Insurers, so that we can ensure future cover 10. John Pugh (Southport) (LD): What recent after the statement of principles ends. progress has been made on reducing the incidence of diseases in the bee population; and if she will make a Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): Everyone statement. [37804] realises that money is tight, but will the Minister look again at the importance of the Leeds flood alleviation The Minister of State, Department for Environment, scheme on the River Aire? In 2007, the city centre was Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): I am pleased centimetres away from flooding, with £500 million of to report that there has been a significant reduction in damage to 3,000 properties projected. It is an incredibly the number of colonies lost from all causes. For example, important scheme that cannot simply be left to gather losses over the 2009-10 winter were 16%, compared dust. with 30% in 2007-08, and cases of foulbrood disease have decreased steadily since 2008. It is clearly too early Richard Benyon: I am conscious of the scheme’s to know the results for the current winter, but I can tell importance to the people of Leeds, and much work can the hon. Gentleman that the national bee unit has lost be done to ensure that parts of it are certainly brought only two out of 180 units. forward in a viable form. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has had discussions with the hon. John Pugh: I thank the Minister for that response. Gentleman’s colleagues and she will be happy, as I will, The previous Government’s promises to fund research to discuss the intricacies of the scheme. At the moment, into bee diseases created a buzz of anticipation, so can I it will cost roughly £250,000 per property, which is a take it that the coalition have a proper plan “Bee”? difficult sum to get around in terms of value for money. Many other schemes provide much better benefit, but I Mr Paice: The previous Government committed very much hope that we can work with the local authority £4.3 million to research on bee health, as the hon. and with hon. Members to ensure that, in time, we Gentleman rightly said, and I am happy to pay tribute bring forward elements of it. to them for that. Of that sum, £2 million was for the insect pollinators initiative, and £2.3 million was for the Mr Jamie Reed (Copeland) (Lab): It is a matter of healthy bees plan, and we hope that those resources will fact that the Government have decided to cut flood deliver results. I must say, however, that that was the defence spending by 27%. Those cuts mean that the result of a massive campaign by Back Benchers on both Environment Agency has had to change the way in sides of the House, which forced the previous Government which it allocates resources through its outcome-measure to commit those resources. assessments, and that has already had an effect upon flood defence schemes throughout the country. Will the Flood Defences Secretary of State today give a guarantee—not assurances, but a guarantee—that her cuts will not prejudice flood 11. Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab): When defence schemes in rural areas and other less populated she plans to make an announcement on funding for areas, where the economies of scale for flood defence individual flood defence schemes during the comprehensive spending are very different from schemes in more urban spending review period. [37806] areas?

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Richard Benyon: I can assure the hon. Gentleman Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): that proposals under the payment-for-outcomes scheme, The Environment Agency has been consulting regional on which we are consulting, will make things easier for flood defence committees on the programme for 2011-12. communities that have traditionally missed out on flood The agency’s board will be deciding the allocation of funding, such as those he describes in rural areas, and funding to each region shortly. Information on individual that funding allocation will be clear. I shall just correct schemes will be published as soon as possible. Decisions him, however. On a direct comparison of funding, we on funding for future years depend on the outcome of are spending approximately 8% less than the previous DEFRA’s consultation on the way schemes are funded. Government over the same period. One year ago, his party announced 50% capital cuts, and if he were sitting Mrs Glindon: People in the north-east whose homes on the Government Benches and intending to favour were devastated by the floods in 2008 have learned that flood funding, he would have to explain where else he planned flood defences have now been deferred. What was going to make cuts. message does the Minister have for those people who, as well as living with the worry of future floods, have the Forests added financial concern of losing all insurance cover because those defences are not guaranteed to go ahead? 12. Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): What Richard Benyon: First, those schemes have not been recent representations she has received on the sale of rejected; they will be looked at again to ensure that they land managed by the Forestry Commission in England. can provide good value for money for the taxpayer. [37807] Secondly, we are consulting on a payment-for-outcomes scheme, which for the first time will ensure transparency The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and in flood funding, allowing local communities to understand Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): Since the beginning where they are in the pecking order and how they can of October, we have received 4,200 representations on assist in ensuring that their flood schemes come forward. the sale of the public forest estate, but most of those 1023 Oral Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Oral Answers 1024 were in response to press coverage, not to the real Sir Peter Soulsby (Leicester South) (Lab): I have read consultation document, which was published on the consultation paper. I have also read the impact 27 January. assessment, which shows that the selling of our forests and dismantling of the Forestry Commission has nothing Mr Watts: Should it not be clear even to this Government to do with the costs or the benefits. We know that the that selling off our forests is a bad idea that has no Government are not listening to the big society or the public support? Will the Minister abandon the policy community, because community groups are desperately before she is forced to do so because of public pressure? worried about having to take on responsibility for their woods and forests. I note that today, as yesterday, the Mrs Spelman: The hon. Gentleman was perhaps not Secretary of State has not even mentioned her phoney in the House last night, so allow me just to remind him argument about regulation, because it is so weak. At the that, in the last few months before the general election, heart of this, one question remains: just why is the the party of which he is a member published when in Secretary of State determined to sell off our precious government an operational efficiency programme setting woods and forests? out the case for long-term leases of the public forest estate and for getting Mrs Spelman: That was part of last night’s debate. It “greater commercial benefit from the public forest estate”. is clear that the Opposition do not want community groups and charities to be able to take ownership and Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): I have management. That is clearly a divide between our parties. had more representations on this issue than on any This is not primarily about cost and benefit. The point other since I was elected—probably about 500 so far. If about regulation still stands. The Forestry Commission I send them on to the consultation with a covering is both the regulator and the largest seller of timber in letter, can the Secretary of State reassure my constituents the market that it regulates. In this day and age, that that they will all be counted as individual submissions? kind of conflict of interest cannot continue.

Mrs Spelman: I can give my hon. Friend that assurance. Rural Payments Agency All hon. Members should actively encourage their constituents to read the genuine consultation document. 13. Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): There has been an awful lot of mythology in the press, What progress has been made in resolving the single and we would welcome responses to the genuine payment scheme difficulties experienced by Mr Peter consultation. Philpot. [37809]

Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): Given The Minister of State, Department for Environment, that 60% of private English forests outside the public Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): I apologise forest estate are under-managed, and that only 16% of very much for the unacceptably long delay in resolving them meet Forestry Stewardship Council standards, the issues on Mr Philpot’s single payment scheme claims. compared with 100% of Forestry Commission woodland, For the House’s information, I should declare that I are not the public absolutely right to oppose this sell-off, know Mr Philpot personally. This is one example of the which puts high levels of access and biodiversity at risk? dire legacy at the Rural Payments Agency. I understand that Mr Philpot is due top-up payments for the 2007 Mrs Spelman: I do not accept that it puts biodiversity and 2008 scheme years, and these will be made by the at risk. That is something that I am particularly committed end of this month. Resolving the underlying problems to enhancing and improving, as is set out in the proposals. will take longer, but I am committed to seeing that The hon. Lady’s point will remind everybody that the permanent solutions are found. public forest estate covers only 18% of woodland. Under the reforms that we propose, the Forestry Commission would continue in a regulatory role, and I would expect Mr Baron: The Minister kindly acknowledges that it to help us to achieve even higher standards of the RPA has failed my constituent over a long period. maintenance in both the public and the private forest. Will he detail in writing what has held up the claims so far, and which entitlements are causing the problem, in time for a meeting on 15 February between the National Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): Bearing in mind the Farmers Union and Mr Philpot? Secretary of State’s concerns about public perception of the consultation proposals, does she agree that now may be the time to provide greater clarity about the Mr Paice: To be honest, I am not sure that I can write conditions governing how the 40,000 hectares announced to my hon. Friend detailing which particular transfers in the comprehensive spending review will be disposed of? or entitlements are wrong. The problem is the computer system, which is completely inadequate for its purpose. Mrs Spelman: I am happy to provide clarity. The It was commissioned, of course, by the previous criteria for the continuing sales of land as part of the Government, and it is not fit for purpose, especially in CSR planned release are published and in the public very complex cases such as Mr Philpot’s, where a large domain on the Forestry Commission website. They number of transfers of entitlements have had to be look principally for sites that are less accessible and brought into play. have a large requirement for expenditure. The criteria are set out in the public domain, and I am sure that 14. Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) the hon. Gentleman can help to point people to the (Con): What progress she has made on improving the right place. performance of the Rural Payments Agency. [37810] 1025 Oral Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Oral Answers 1026

The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Dangerous Dogs Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave earlier. 16. Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op): When she plans to announce proposals arising from her Rehman Chishti: Has the Minister considered the Department’s consultation on the Dangerous Dogs Act merits of outsourcing the agency’s payments process to 1991. [37812] improve performance and efficiency? The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Mr Paice: The short answer is yes—which my hon. Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): We are working Friend might be happy to settle for. I should emphasise, closely with the Home Office, and we expect an however, that that was one of the recommendations in announcement shortly regarding antisocial behaviour, the report that we published last year. We are pursuing in which the issue of dogs will be included. it, but we have to ensure that we get the existing stuff working so that we do not interrupt payments even Gavin Shuker: Members from across the House who more while we look at the whole process of outsourcing. have had serious dog attacks in their constituencies will welcome that answer. There are, however, serious concerns Fish Discards about the ability to implement any changes that come from the consultation, given the serious and deep cuts to the Department for Communities and Local Government 15. Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) and neighbourhood policing. I would like the Minister (LD): What steps she is taking to reduce fish discards; to respond to that. and if she will make a statement. [37811] Mr Paice: I cannot pre-empt the announcements that The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Office will make shortly. I assure the hon. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): Gentleman that the plan is not for massive additional I refer my right hon. Friend to the answer that I gave public expenditure in dealing with this issue. He will earlier. have to await the proposals that will be published shortly.

Simon Hughes: I listened to the Minister’s earlier Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): We are all answers. Fish, like forests, are of as much interest in concerned about dangerous dogs—of course we are—and Bermondsey and Southwark as anywhere else in Britain. about the antisocial element among ordinary dogs. What is he doing not only to deal with the common None the less, does the Minister agree that there is a risk fisheries policy, but to ensure that people at home that perfectly normal dogs that bark might suddenly understand the benefits of eating more fish, particularly find themselves captured in all-encompassing anti-dog sustainably caught fish, so that they can both be healthier regulations? Will he be cautious in addressing the problems and help to solve this Europe-wide failure? raised by the hon. Member for Luton South (Gavin Shuker)?

Richard Benyon: The Fishing for the Market project, Mr Paice: My hon. Friend is right to urge caution. which is being carried out by DEFRA, analyses the There are two slightly different perceptions. One is of 54% of discards that are created because there is no the dogs that people use as fashion accessories, such as market for those fish. Some of them are perfectly edible the pit bull-type dogs used by the louts that we sometimes delicious fish, such as dab. We must also ensure that the see walking about the streets. However, the tragedies public ask for Marine Stewardship Council accredited often involve household pets that, for some reason, have fish, which can be bought at the fishmonger and the gone wrong. We have to bear that in mind and look at supermarket. Supermarkets are the key in driving forward the whole picture. this agenda. Farm Incomes John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab): The common fisheries policy is probably the most unmitigated disaster 17. Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): in EU history—and that is up against some pretty stiff What recent estimate she has made of the level of farm competition. The doctrine of common resource has incomes; and if she will make a statement. [37813] been a disaster from the beginning. The Minister says that the common fisheries policy is broken, so why The Minister of State, Department for Environment, is he talking in terms of reform. Why does he not just Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): The latest abolish it? forecasts of farm incomes were published on 27 January. They indicate that average incomes are likely to show a Richard Benyon: I could spend all my energy trying to marked increase in 2010-11 on arable farms, but to fall unpick the common fisheries policy from various treaties, on livestock farms. I am sorry to say that the current probably going back to the treaty of Rome. However, I price for grain is likely to increase that differential. am dealing with an industry in crisis, and with people’s jobs. They want me to push at a door that is open. I urge Miss McIntosh: Is the Minister aware that incomes the hon. Gentleman to read the Commission’s paper are expected to drop by 60% for pig farms, 30% for and position statement, because for the first time there sheep farms, 48% for farms with grazing livestock and is an opportunity to decentralise this matter and to get 24% for dairy farms, and that the increase for arable back more local control. That is what the industry farmers that he referred to is due only to the single farm wants, and what we all want. payment? In the context of common agricultural policy 1027 Oral Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Oral Answers 1028 reform, will he assure the House, and farmers, that the house in order here, and our wildlife crime unit does emphasis will remain on farm production and on ensuring wonderful work supporting endeavours such as those a fair return to our producers? that she mentions, but ultimately we have to deal with those who believe that the products in question are Mr Paice: I do not think that my hon. Friend is right useful in medicine, and those who use ivory in ornaments. to attribute the rise in arable income to the single farm That is where the problem really comes from. payment. It is because the price of wheat today is more than double what it was a year ago. As my right hon. Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): The Friend the Secretary of State said earlier, our approach Minister will be aware that if we are to enforce the to the common agricultural policy is about trying to convention in Britain, we need to ensure that we have at drive up productivity and competitiveness and stop our airports and seaports the customs officers who are wasting money in areas in which it should not be spent. needed to do the work. Can he assure us that there will That is why we want to see a greater proportion of the be no diminution in the effort put in to ensure that funding spent on pillar two, in which we can actually endangered species and other animal products are not aid competitiveness. introduced to this country?

Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): Can the Minister tell us Richard Benyon: I can assure the hon. Gentleman what talks he has had with Treasury colleagues about that I am working very closely with Home Office colleagues encouraging the banks to lend more to farmers? Farmers on their consultation on the new border regime. I have in my constituency are suffering considerable difficulties visited the animal reception centre at Heathrow and and finding that banks are changing terms and conditions seen the expertise there, and we want to keep that skill and refusing to accommodate their needs in any way. base active across the country. Mr Paice: The hon. Lady is not alone in having constituents with those problems, and of course they Topical Questions are not restricted to farmers. As she will know, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor has already made a number T1. [37820] Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): of statements on the subject, including about ways in If she will make a statement on her departmental which he can press the banks to be more open with their responsibilities. lending and perhaps charge less for it. The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and CITES Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): My Department takes responsibility for safeguarding the environment, 18. Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): What supporting farmers and strengthening the green economy. recent assessment she has made of the effectiveness of In that context, I am sure that Members of all parties the Convention on International Trade in Endangered will join me in welcoming the publication of Foresight’s Species; and if she will make a statement. [37814] latest report, “Global Food and Farming Futures”. That excellent body of work, co-funded by my Department, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for is a searching and rigorous assessment of the global Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): food challenges between now and 2050, and I urge all DEFRA has not undertaken any recent assessment of Members to read it. the effectiveness of CITES. The next opportunity to examine the extent to which the convention is delivering Mr Chope: Why can my right hon. Friend not give an the objectives of its strategic plan will be the CITES unequivocal guarantee that in any sale of Forestry standing committee in August. Commission land, existing public rights of access will be maintained exactly as they are at the moment, whether Jo Swinson: The Minister may be aware of the recent on or foot, by bicycle or on horseback? The failure of cross-border crackdown on illegal wildlife smuggling in her colleague in the other place to give an unequivocal central Africa, which led to arrests and the seizure of answer to that question yesterday has increased, not 150 kg of ivory, 1,000 African grey parrots, 17 turtle allayed, public suspicion on that subject. shells, seven leopard skins, two lion skins and a rather grisly haul of ape heads. That successful operation was co-ordinated by Last Great Ape, a dedicated non- Mrs Spelman: The Minister of State, my right hon. governmental organisation. What is DEFRA doing with Friend the Member for South East Cambridgeshire ministerial colleagues to ensure that such civil society (Mr Paice), gave precisely that undertaking in the debate organisations, which are vital to that work, are supported last night, and I believe that he has reiterated it today. by Department for International Development funding and backed up by ambassadors in making it clear that Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab): The Campaign for our endangered species must be protected? Better Transport today launched a “Save Our Buses” campaign. Its research shows that Cambridgeshire county Richard Benyon: I applaud my hon. Friend for her council is proposing to phase out all council bus services, commitment to this matter. I will certainly work with and that Northamptonshire county council plans to colleagues in Departments such as DFID to ensure that cancel all existing rural services. Can the Minister tell we co-ordinate the great deal of work that we are doing the House what advice he has given the Department for to sponsor schemes that crack down on poaching, such Transport, or what advice has been sought, about the as the one that I described earlier. We have to understand impact of those bus cuts on rural communities and that the real problem is the end user. We can have our economies? 1029 Oral Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Oral Answers 1030

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for T5. [37824] Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): People in Northumberland will never forget the I can assure the hon. Lady that I am working closely devastating impact of floods on communities such as with ministerial colleagues in the Department for Transport Rothbury, Warkworth and Morpeth. Will the Minister to ensure that a variety of solutions are found in respect therefore assure me that he will take a personal interest of rural bus services. One problem is that such services in the Morpeth flood relief scheme? It is obviously are extremely expensive, and the vast majority of the impossible for all flood relief schemes to proceed at the buses go around the countryside transporting nothing same time, but the impact on Morpeth, which was but air. We need more customer-responsive local solutions. visited by leaders from all political parties, was The Government can assist those in a variety of ways. devastating.

T2. [37821] Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) Richard Benyon: I am more than aware of the impact (Con): Does the Secretary of State agree that the new of those floods on the people of Morpeth, and of the National forest, which covers much of my fantastic community spirit that came out at the time. constituency, is a model of what can be achieved by the The community wants to ensure resilience against flooding private sector and the and third sector in delivering in future. I assure the right hon. Gentleman that I will excellent access to, and enjoyment of, the amenities of meet him, and them, at any time to ensure that we can our woodlands? carry that forward.

Mrs Spelman: I certainly do. I met representatives of Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): Morpeth is actually in the National Forest Company this week. It is a wonderful my constituency. The townsfolk are absolutely livid—and model of what can be achieved. It involves schools and devastated—that the Morpeth alleviation scheme is being volunteers and has achieved a lot of regeneration on deferred. Will the Minister agree to meet me as a matter former industrial sites. of urgency to discuss the Morpeth project?

T3. [37822] Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): Does Richard Benyon: I am very happy to meet the hon. the Minister agree with the Country Landowners Gentleman and members of the lead local flood authority Association that pillar one of the common agricultural to discuss that with him, if he can arrange a time with policy should increasingly deliver public and my office. environmental goods, or does he agree with the National Farmers Union, which thinks that that would T6. [37825] Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con): I am increase costs for farmers, and therefore opposes the sure that, like me and many other hon. Members, my idea? right hon. Friend the Minister has received many representations on the future of public forests. I have The Minister of State, Department for Environment, more than 3,000 acres of Forestry Commission land in Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): The Government, my constituency. Public rights of way will be protected as has been published in our reply to the Commission’s by law, but will he give me a cast-iron guarantee that proposal, believe that pillar two is the better vehicle for permissive access rights will also be protected, the delivery of public goods, which is why we believe maintained and freely available under any future that pillar one should gradually be phased out over a management agreements? long period. We can then concentrate resources on transparent payments to farmers for delivering access, Mr Paice: I am glad that my hon. Friend has asked environmental benefits and a range of other public that question, because it allows me to emphasise that goods, including farming competitiveness. there is a difference between dedicated rights and permissive access. Dedicated rights apply to more than 90% of the T4. [37823] Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): My forest estate that we own. They cannot be taken away or constituency is extremely fortunate to have Delamere removed; they are there in perpetuity. However, a lot of forest, the largest woodland in Cheshire. Can the people confuse those rights with permissive rights. The Secretary of State assure me, and my constituents, that only places in the forest estate where there are such this Government will always protect public access rights are land that we do not own, but have by leasehold— rights to Delamere forest? mainly on 999-year leases. We cannot dedicate such land because the original leases prevent us from doing Mrs Spelman: Yes, absolutely. so, but all Forestry Commission-owned land has dedicated access, which is permanent. Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): I would be very disappointed, and so would my constituents, Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): We hear today if the forests and woodland question was diverted into a that farmers and many others are not able to get hold of question of access. It is a question not of access, but of grants from the banks to further their causes. In the ownership. Deep in the DNA of English people is that light of that, will the Secretary of State tell the banks for years and years they have been fed up because they that under no circumstances will they be able to buy have been told, “You can come, by our grace and forests? favour, and walk on our land, but you can’t own it.” Mrs Spelman: We have made it perfectly clear that the Mrs Spelman: It is a question of both ownership and Forestry Commission has a duty and a responsibility, access. As I explained to the House yesterday, when the with any of the planned sales of the public forest estate, hon. Gentleman’s party was in government, it also to satisfy itself that those who wish to buy are qualified looked at both ownership and access. to do so and have the necessary expertise to safeguard 1031 Oral Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Oral Answers 1032 the high standards of protection of the environment agree that police officers need adequate training to deal and its biodiversity, public access and other public with dangerous dogs and the skills necessary to handle benefits. such situations?

T7. [37826] Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) Mr Paice: I have huge sympathy with those affected (Con): In my constituency we are delighted that our by what happened in Wolverhampton, which was a work against dangerous dogs and their owners has huge tragedy. A well-meaning family took in a stray been recognised by DEFRA, and that the borough of dog, which then turned on their child; it could not have Ealing has been selected to pilot the dog ASBOs—or been a worse situation. Wolverhampton city council has “dogbos”. Can the Minister give us further details on rightly advised that if people find stray dogs they should how those are intended to work? tell the council rather than taking them in. My hon. Friend is right to refer to police training. Some forces Mr Paice: I admire my hon. Friend’s doggedness in have put a great deal of resources into training their pursuing this subject, and she is right to do so. I officers to deal properly with such incidents, and the congratulate Ealing on applying to take part in the pilot rest should follow that example. scheme and we welcome its interest, but no final decisions have been taken. Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): Yesterday in Victoria Tower gardens there was a photo opportunity Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): The Secretary of State for MPs, organised by Animal Defenders International, earlier used warm tones in promising future positive with an inflatable elephant. It was as surreal as it engagement with the devolved Administrations on the sounds. The event was to highlight the fact that DEFRA future of the CAP. Will that engagement be on the basis has yet to arrive at conclusions on the public consultation of DEFRA continuing to ignore the deeply held views on the banning of wild animals in circuses. Can the of the devolved Administrations on the future of pillar Minister of State tell us when we may expect that one? announcement? Mr Paice: I can tell the hon. Gentleman that the Mrs Spelman: We have been proactive in our engagement decision is imminent. This is very important. We are with all the devolved Administrations, and recognise well aware of the work that he started on this subject, the importance of direct payments to farmers. It is that and will make an announcement shortly. assurance that the devolved Administrations are seeking, and I confirm that Ministers understand the challenges Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con): Will of farming in less favoured areas and will defend those the Minister please give us more detail on exactly what interests. will happen with IT management and mapping to speed up payments, particularly for small farmers? T8. [37827] Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con): Can the Minister offer any help Mr Paice: The Rural Payments Agency has been very and support to the monks of Caldey island off the involved over the past six or nine months with the south Pembrokeshire coast in their attempts to providers of our IT system in introducing what they introduce the red squirrel to their island? apparently term a number of “fixes” to the system to try to overcome many of the problems, and they are Richard Benyon: I applaud the monks, and their now working through, and enabling us to get through, Member of Parliament, for their support for this scheme. some of the backlog. I suspect that we will shortly be Like me, they have seen what has happened in Anglesey making a decision on making manual payments, to and the eradication of the grey squirrel there, which has ensure that more farmers, especially small farmers, receive almost been achieved. That will bring benefits for the their money. regeneration of the red squirrel, and we are looking at it closely in connection with our project in the north of Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): England. Kielder forest, which will provide the bulk of the income under the Government’s plans to sell off our national Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): Last week I heritage, is home to 31 sites of special scientific interest, had more representations from constituents who are as well as red squirrels and ospreys, yet the Government saddled with unadopted drains and sewers. Can the consultation classifies it simply as “commercial”. What Minister give me an update on what progress has been guarantees can the Secretary of State give us that the made since the consultation finished at the end of last public interest and conservation interests will be met in year? perpetuity, given that the forest is classified as commercial? Mrs Spelman: We need to be perfectly clear that Richard Benyon: We will make an announcement very Kielder forest is predominantly commercial, but that it shortly. I understand the fears and concerns of the hon. retains within it sites of special scientific interest and Lady’s constituents, and we are determined to take other recreational amenities that will be protected by forward that very important part of the Flood and the conditions set in the leases—in addition to the Water Management Act 2010. I will be in touch with legislation that protects such things—if that is the outcome her shortly. that arises from the proposals under consultation.

T9. [37828] Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con): Following the (Con): Recently in Wolverhampton we had a serious very important recommendations laid out in last week’s incident involving a dangerous dog. Does the Minister Foresight report on the role of agricultural research in 1033 Oral Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Oral Answers 1034 tackling climate change and promoting food security, Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab): what representations can the Secretary of State make to The consultation on the dangerous dogs legislation our European colleagues to ensure that we have a posed the possibility of extending the law relating to regime in Europe that encourages agricultural innovation? public land to private property, as supported by postal workers unions. Will the Government make that commitment when they announce the outcome to the consultation to protect workers such as doctors, midwives Mrs Spelman: We regularly raise these issues with a and postmen and women? number of European Commissioners, not just with the Directorate-General for Agriculture and Rural Mr Paice: The hon. Lady is right that the consultation Development. I have often commended the work of the posed that question. We believe that existing legislation report to European Agricultural Commissioners for the might be slightly inadequate, but does cover what we warning that it gives to the food, farming and research might call the curtilage of property—the footpath to community of the twin challenges of environmental the door, or whatever—as well as open public space. change and food security that mean that we have to use However, there was very little support in the result of all our endeavours to build the capacity in European the consultation for extending the legislation inside the agriculture to produce more food sustainably for a door and into people’s private property—which, as I hungry world. intimated earlier, is, sadly, where a lot of the attacks happen. 1035 3 FEBRUARY 2011 Business of the House 1036

Business of the House seller of timber? As a former Environment Secretary, may I tell the Leader of the House that, in my three 11.33 am years in the job, not a single person raised this matter with me? The House is entitled to know what the Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab): Will the Leader Secretary of State has discovered in just nine months of the House tell us the forthcoming business? that none of her predecessors worried about in the 90 years since the Forestry Commission was founded. The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George This is a bad policy looking for an excuse. Young): The business for the week commencing 7 February I must hand it to the Government, however, and give will be: them credit where it is due. Given that the proposal MONDAY 7FEBRUARY—Opposition Day (unallotted might not even save any money, it takes a special kind of day) [half-day] [first part]. There will be a half-day genius to unite just about everyone else against it. The debate on Government policy on the cost of fuel. This truth is that people do not agree with it and they do not debate will arise on a Scottish National party and Plaid want it; even No. 10 is now briefing that it does not Cymru motion, followed by motions relating to the think it has been very well presented. So not for the first 10th report from the Standards and Privileges Committee time I say to the right hon. Gentleman that the Government on the registration of income from employment and the are going to have to change their mind. eighth report of session 2008-09 from the Standards and Privileges Committee on all-party groups. Talking of which, there has been much comment this week about the Prime Minister having to come to the TUESDAY 8FEBRUARY—Second Reading of the Education rescue of the Health and Social Care Bill because it, Bill. too, has been poorly presented. Will the Prime Minister WEDNESDAY 9FEBRUARY—Motions relating to the come to the House to explain whether he blames himself police grant and local government finance reports. for that, given the revelation this week that he is having THURSDAY 10 FEBRUARY—Motion relating to voting trouble persuading his own brother-in-law, an NHS by prisoners. The subject for this debate was nominated cardiologist, that the upheaval is a good idea? His by the Backbench Business Committee. brother-in-law is apparently worried that hospitals will be disadvantaged. If the Prime Minister cannot even FRIDAY 11 FEBRUARY—Private Members’ Bills. reassure his own family about the proposals—and the The provisional business for the week commencing Health Secretary certainly cannot persuade the House—is 14 February will include: it any wonder that the public are not buying them? Will MONDAY 14 FEBRUARY—Second Reading of the Budget the Leader of the House ensure that we have enough Responsibility and National Audit Bill [Lords]. time in Committee properly to consider the Bill, because, I should also like to inform the House that the to judge from the Second Reading debate, there are still business in Westminster Hall for Thursday 17 February far more questions than there are answers? will be a debate on a Transport Committee report: May we have a debate on one of the greatest achievements Priorities for Investment In The Railways. of the previous Labour Government: Sure Start? [Interruption.] It is interesting to hear Conservative Hilary Benn: I am grateful to the Leader of the Members jeering Sure Start. Before the election, the House for that reply.On his submission to the Independent Prime Minister went up and down the country—we Parliamentary Standards Authority review, which has have certainly heard that one before—saying that he been published this morning in a written statement, was strongly committed to it. He promised that he may I welcome what it says about the need for fundamental would back it. He even had the nerve to criticise my reform? That view is forcefully shared right across the right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy and House, and we all hope that IPSA will listen. Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) for trying to frighten people On counter-terrorism, the shadow Home Secretary about this; and his right-hand man, who is now the has offered cross-party talks to draft emergency legislation, Education Secretary, said: but it is still not in the Library. The Government said in “On Sure Start, we won’t cut funding”. their review last week that using a statutory instrument It could not have been clearer. Except that we now learn would be very difficult in the even of a major incident. that the budget is going to be cut. A survey by the May we have an update? Daycare Trust and 4Children shows that 250 Sure Start Last night, we saw just how unpopular the plan is to centres are expected to close in the next 12 months, and sell off our woodlands and forests, with several Members six of them are going to be chopped by the Tories’ own on the Government Benches voting against the flagship borough, Hammersmith and Fulham. It is no Government. Lib Dems will have noticed that they do wonder that parents are worried sick. Another week, not have a single Minister in the Department for another betrayal. Will the right hon. Gentleman explain Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. I pity them, why anyone should now trust any promise made by the having to reply to all those e-mails to explain why they Prime Minister before 6 May? voted for a policy that they must, in their hearts, loathe. Finally, I have not only been reading the Leader of At least their president, the hon. Member for Westmorland the House’s submission to IPSA; I have also been and Lonsdale (Tim Farron), had the courage to speak reading his blog. Musing on hard times, he wrote: out and vote with us on that. May we have a detailed statement from the Environment Secretary on the “I predict that The Times list of the most popular girls’ names extraordinary claim she made this week, which was in the year may include a new one—Austerity.” repeated by the Prime Minister yesterday, that the reason May I predict in return that, when it comes to boys’ for the sale is an apparent conflict of interest between names this year, Dave, George and Nick are not going the Forestry Commission’s roles as a regulator and as a to be very popular? If the right hon. Gentleman is 1037 Business of the House3 FEBRUARY 2011 Business of the House 1038 looking for alternatives, may I suggest Complacency, I therefore hope the Opposition will support what we Incompetency and, as for the Deputy Prime Minister, are doing: driving forward the agenda set out by the that is a really easy one: Duplicity? What is in a name? right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath. A lot! On Sure Start, there are sufficient resources in the programme to maintain the existing structure of Sure Mr Speaker: I think I will take the last observation as Start children’s centres, so I reject the accusation that a joke, but in any other context the use of the word was made. “duplicity” would not be appropriate. I am sure, however, The right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary that good humour is what was intended by the shadow Benn) asked for more time for the Health and Social Leader of the House. Care Bill. The Opposition did not vote against the programme motion setting out the time available for the Hilary Benn: Indeed it was, Mr Speaker. Bill, so it is astonishing that he should raise that subject now. On the right hon. Gentleman’s final point, perhaps Sir George Young: I am sorry that the right hon. Prudence would have been a more appropriate name. Gentleman’s punchline did not work. I welcome what the right hon. Gentleman said about Several hon. Members rose— IPSA. I am absolutely clear in my own mind that we must adhere to the principle of the independent setting Mr Speaker: Order. A great many hon. and right hon. of our allowances; we cannot go back to the bad old Members are seeking to catch my eye, but there is a days. I am equally clear that we must stick with the ministerial statement to follow and then two heavily principle of transparency. On the other hand, IPSA subscribed debates under the auspices of the Backbench must recognise that the allowances are meant to support Business Committee, time for which it is my responsibility us in the job we were sent here to do: fighting for our to protect. There is therefore a premium today on constituents, holding the Government to account, and single, short supplementary questions and the Leader scrutinising legislation. In many respects, the current of the House’s characteristically pithy replies. Even administration and structure of allowances get in the allowing for that, I am afraid that many Members will way of our doing that job. I therefore very much hope be disappointed today. that IPSA is able to respond to the representations I have made, and to those which I hope other colleagues Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): May we please will also make, and that it will come up with a revised have a statement on the future of the maternity department system that enables us to get on with the job we were at Fairfield hospital in Bury, following yesterday’s decision sent here to do. by NHS officials to confirm the closure decision that On control orders, I welcome the opportunity of was made by the last Government? cross-party talks, and I will certainly pursue the issue the right hon. Gentleman raised with the Home Secretary. Sir George Young: I understand my hon. Friend’s concern about the decision taken on 2 February by the We had an extensive debate on forests yesterday, and NHS North West board on the reconfiguration of maternity a lot of the exchanges today were also focused on the services in the north-west, which followed a period of forests, so I cannot promise time for an extra debate. I consultation. I will, of course, draw his concern to the welcome yesterday’s debate however, in which my right attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Environment, for Health. Food and Rural Affairs dismissed many of the myths surrounding our proposals, explained that this was an Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab): The opportunity to improve the levels of public benefit from Leader of the House will be aware of today’s very our woodlands, and drew attention to the fact that the important Westminster Hall debate on parliamentary previous Government sold off 25,000 acres of woodland reform, led by the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion with a bare minimum of protection. There will be no (Caroline Lucas). Will he join me in encouraging as further debate on that subject for the time being therefore, many newly elected Members in particular to take part but we are, of course, consulting and listening, as both in the debate to offer their ideas for making this place the Prime Minister and my right hon. Friend the Secretary work better, and will he show his ongoing support for of State said yesterday. parliamentary reform by attending in person? On the health reforms, we are simply carrying out the Also, the Government have set a grown-up precedent policy of the previous Prime Minister, the right hon. in allowing a free vote on next week’s Backbench Business Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown). Committee motion on prisoner voting rights. Will the This is what he said to the Liaison Committee a few Leader of the House now ensure that votes on all years ago: Backbench Business Committee motions will be unwhipped, “We have been asking in people from the private sector to to ensure that any outcome this House comes to can review what we can do to give them a better chance to compete for truly be said to represent the will of the House? contracts…so the independent sector increases its role, will continue to increase its role and, in a wider and broader range of areas, will Sir George Young: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for have a bigger role in the years to come.” her question. I do hope to attend the debate on He went on to say: parliamentary reform later today in Westminster Hall, a “The test at the end of the day is not private versus public, it is debate to which my hon. Friend the Deputy Leader of value for money, and it is not dogmatic to support one against the the House will be replying. He shares my commitment other.” to and appetite for more parliamentary reform. On the 1039 Business of the House3 FEBRUARY 2011 Business of the House 1040

[Sir George Young] right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field) and my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham hon. Lady’s second point, I welcome the opportunity North (Mr Allen) on early intervention, will the Leader that this Government have given the Backbench Business of the House think again about providing Government Committee not just to propose subjects but to table time for a debate on this issue which is incredibly motions. If a motion is tabled that causes difficulties for important for the future not just of our children, but of the Government, the Government may have to take a the country? view, as we did with the debate on contaminated blood, so, with my right hon. Friend the Chief Whip sitting a Sir George Young: The Government are committed few feet away from me, it would be rash to make any to the policy to which the hon. Gentleman has just commitment about unwhipped votes. referred. There will be an opportunity to pursue the matter further on Monday, when Education Ministers Kris Hopkins (Keighley) (Con): May I ask the Leader will be before the House, and I will tell my right hon. of the House for a debate on representation on local Friend the Secretary of State for Education that the enterprise partnerships? My constituency has no hon. Gentleman may be in his place to do just that. representation on the Leeds city region LEP, so we are having to rely on a Bradford-based, Bradford-centric, soon-to-be-imposed shadow mayor. Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): On the subject of names, I wonder how many boys born this Sir George Young: I understand my hon. Friend’s year would welcome their parents calling them Hilary. concern. I would be more than happy to raise the May we have a debate in Government time on the structure of the LEP in his constituency with my right worrying practice that the new Labour Government did hon. Friend the Business Secretary, to see whether we nothing about, namely the finger-printing of our children can get a broader base of representation. in schools without parental permission? I am delighted that the Government have made plans to deal with that Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): May we have an practice, but may we have a debate in Government time urgent debate on the devastating impact of the to talk about whether it should happen at all? Government’s policies on bus services, in the light of today’s report showing that Devon would be among the Sir George Young: I understand my hon. Friend’s worst affected parts of the country, losing services in concern. I will raise the matter with the Home Secretary Exeter and the rural areas, thereby reversing the great or the Secretary of State for Education, whichever is the progress made under the Labour Government on improving most appropriate, to clarify exactly what the coalition bus services? Government’s response is to the procedure to which he has referred. Sir George Young: The right hon. Gentleman may have an opportunity to raise that subject in Wednesday’s debate on the revenue support grant for local government. Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): Recent events Some 80% of bus services outside London are commercially in Egypt have demonstrated the importance of the BBC run, and so do not depend on direct funding from World Service and its interpretation of events. The cuts councils. There has been no cut in the financial support in the service that were announced recently mean that that we provide for those services, and we have protected “Voice of America” will be the only real international the statutory concessionary travel schemes. broadcaster left. Will the Leader of the House allocate time for a serious debate on the future of the BBC Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): May we World Service and how it can return to being the have a debate on record-keeping at the UK Border world’s international broadcaster? Agency? Hon. Members will be aware that we recently debated the successor to control orders, but we are also Sir George Young: I am not sure that the assertion routinely told that it is not possible to provide information that the Americans have a monopoly on the broadcasting on how many individuals are using articles 3 and 8 of of what is going on Egypt is correct. the European convention on human rights to avoid The Foreign Secretary made an extensive statement deportation when they should be removed from this on the World Service last week, which was followed by a country. Will the Leader of the House have a word with series of questions and answers. I cannot promise a our colleagues in the Home Office to investigate this debate on the subject, but the next session of Foreign unsatisfactory situation? Office questions will provide another opportunity for it to be raised. Sir George Young: I understand my hon. Friend’s concern. I wonder whether he would be able to get the information about the numbers that he quite rightly Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Following seeks by tabling parliamentary questions, but in any the right hon. Gentleman’s exchange with the Chairwoman event I shall raise the matter with the Home Secretary. of the Backbench Business Committee, the hon. Member for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel), may I Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): In yesterday’s point out that I have voted for the Government more Westminster Hall debate, which I secured, on the future times than the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister of children’s centres, it became increasingly clear that and the Chancellor of the Exchequer added together? many local authorities are unable to afford to maintain If the Government must whip, would it not be useful the current network of Sure Start children’s centres. for the details to be on the Order Paper so that we know Given that concern and the recent reports from my which votes are whipped and which are not? 1041 Business of the House3 FEBRUARY 2011 Business of the House 1042

Sir George Young: Let me put my hon. Friend’s I thank the hon. Gentleman for his generous invitation, observation into context by saying that I suspect he has but I am otherwise engaged on Saturday night. also voted against the Government more often than the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister. Jessica Lee (Erewash) (Con): Will my right hon. I am sure that my hon. Friend receives the same Friend consider allocating time for a debate on the role communication that I receive, indicating just how keen of the voluntary sector? My constituency contains the the Chief Whip might be on his attendance in relation excellent Erewash council for voluntary service and to particular issues. I am not sure that it would be other voluntary organisations, and a Derbyshire voluntary, sensible to put the information on the Order Paper. community and independent sector volunteering passport scheme has been introduced. Such a debate would provide an excellent opportunity to discuss successful schemes Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): Replying to a question throughout the United Kingdom and the sharing of from my right hon. Friend the Member for Cynon best practice. Valley (Ann Clwyd), the Prime Minister said that the previous Government had planned to phase out Remploy Sir George Young: I agree with my hon. Friend. I was workers. That does not appear to be accurate. Will the pleased to hear about the excellent work being done in Leader of the House ensure that the record is corrected? her constituency, which is an example of the big society in action. I encourage her either to apply for a debate in Sir George Young: I understand that a programme Westminster Hall or, with other Members, to approach has been introduced by Remploy. It is now in the third the Backbench Business Committee to establish whether year of a five-year modernisation plan agreed with the time can be found for a debate on this important and last Government, which involved the merging or closing serious issue. of 29 factories and the setting of challenging targets for a huge increase in the number of disabled people helped Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): Will the Leader into work. We are totally committed to supporting of the House find time for a debate on the Prime disabled people in employment. We confirmed as part Minister’s pet project, the so-called big society? Phil of the spending review that the five-year £555 million Redmond, the chair of National Museums Liverpool operational budget and status of Remploy would remain and a television producer who has been lauded by the unchanged—and we did that at a time of financial Prime Minister, said today that he constraint. “went along with it all because I thought it would be a good way of getting things going, but it’s been impossible to get any David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con): Can my right traction because of the cuts”. hon. Friend tell the House why the windows of some Is it not about time that we debated the big society on Government buildings in Parliament square are still the Floor of the House? boarded up following the students’ demonstration? The Ministry of Justice managed to fix the windows of the Sir George Young: As I indicated in my response to Supreme Court next day, but it seems that the Treasury my hon. Friend the Member for Erewash (Jessica Lee), cannot do the same for Her Majesty’s Revenue and I should welcome a debate on the big society on the Customs. Floor of the House. I am aware of the pressures on many voluntary organisations. That is why we set up a Sir George Young: I am sure that funds are available £100 million fund to help smaller charities through this for that purpose somewhere in the Treasury. difficult time, and to enable them to continue and develop their sound work. The 41 damaged window panels were removed from the site on 22 January. Replacement work will begin on Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): Given the importance 12 February and will be completed by the end of the of the Health and Social Care Bill, may we have an month. Orders were placed by the contractor following opportunity to discuss public health, which performs clarification and agreement on costs with the loss adjuster. an important function in helping our health services?

Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): According Sir George Young: The Health and Social Care Bill to the police, Wind street in Swansea has the second contains a fairly large section on public health, because highest level of recorded crime in Britain. May I ask the it transfers responsibility for that sector from primary Leader of the House whether he is free on Saturday care trusts to local authorities. There should be opportunities night to take a stroll down Wind street with me and to for discussion of important health issues in Committee, witness at first hand the outstanding work of the police and my hon. Friend will certainly be able to discuss in apprehending criminals? They made 48 arrests in them on Report. December. Observing their work would help to inform the right hon. Gentleman in advance of the forthcoming Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): The Leader of debate on the police grant, as it demonstrates that the House has expressed his enthusiasm for further cutting police numbers will endanger the safety of the parliamentary reform, and he will be attending this public. afternoon’s debate on the subject in Westminster Hall. Will he bear in mind the fact that the change in our Sir George Young: The former Home Secretary, the sitting hours which was introduced in 2002 proved right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and pretty disastrous and pretty un-family friendly for those Hessle (Alan Johnson), made it clear that had his party who wanted to take their children on the school run in been re-elected, there could have been no guarantee that London? The question is not as simple as some make it police numbers would not fall. out to be. 1043 Business of the House3 FEBRUARY 2011 Business of the House 1044

Sir George Young: The hon. Gentleman is right: the Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): Will the question of the sitting hours is not a simple one. As he Leader of the House ask my right hon. Friend the may know, the Procedure Committee is about to conduct Chancellor to make a statement on the Office for Budgetary an inquiry, and I am sure that it would be pleased to Responsibility and the OECD’s assessment of the structural hear his representations. I understand that it proposes deficit at the last election, so that the deficit denial of to present the House with some options at the end of its the shadow Chancellor, the right hon. Member for report so that Members can decide if and how they Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls), can be exposed for want to change the sitting hours. what it is?

Mr Lee Scott (Ilford North) (Con): Will my right Sir George Young: It is indeed the case that debt now hon. Friend allow a debate on the establishment of stands at more than £1 trillion, its highest ever level. academies aimed specifically at children suffering from The deficit is the largest in the G20 and in our peacetime autism and Asperger’s syndrome? history, and we have experienced the deepest and longest recession in the G20. The coalition Government would Sir George Young: That is an important subject which welcome a debate on the economy, and the opportunity the House ought to debate. My hon. Friend could apply to draw attention to our disastrous inheritance from the for an Adjournment debate or a debate in Westminster last Government. Hall, or he could approach the Chair of the Backbench Business Committee. The House might then be able to Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): give the issue the time that it deserves. May we have a statement on the future of the 1,500 Mr Tom Watson (West Bromwich East) (Lab): This is people employed by HMRC at Queens dock in Liverpool? an old vintage, Mr Speaker. The Information Commissioner I understand that a decision has been reached to close has forced the Foreign Office to give me the stock list of the building in which they work, contrary to the information the ministerial wine cellar. A debate on the future of the I was given in a written answer only two weeks ago. wine cellar might identify some Government savings. There is a Château Latour 1962 in there, valued at Sir George Young: Treasury questions will take place £3,600. Can the Leader of the House tell me which on Tuesday, but I say to the hon. Lady that, along with Minister deserves to drink it? other colleagues, a lot of us lost our local HMRC offices in the previous Parliament under a programme Sir George Young: I have made some inquiries. The of closures that her party introduced. However, I will of House will be pleased to hear that consumption of wine course raise the specific issue with Treasury Ministers. has fallen by 30% since the coalition Government took over, Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): In the spirit of sober government, may we have a debate on the UK’s Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Will the Leader of competitiveness, because although the manufacturing the House find time for an urgent statement on iEngage, figures are to be celebrated and praised, Pfizer’s decision the secretariat of the newly formed all-party parliamentary to pull out of east Kent highlights the legacy of years of group on Islamophobia? iEngage has a track record of business being overtaxed, overregulated and discouraged? being aggressively anti-Semitic and homophobic, and has extensive links with terrorism in Tunisia and the Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend middle east. In its capacity as the secretariat, it now has for highlighting the encouraging manufacturing figures access to the parliamentary estate. Will the Leader of published earlier this week. The Opposition have been the House raise the issue with the Serjeant at Arms as oddly silent on yesterday’s construction figures, which soon as possible? showed the country returning to growth after the Labour party’s recession. We have not heard a peep from the Sir George Young: The Serjeant at Arms will have shadow Chancellor on this morning’s good news that heard what my hon. Friend has said. As he knows, I the UK’s service sector hit an eight-month high in the announced a few moments ago that there would be same month. debate on all-party parliamentary groups on Monday evening, and it will provide an appropriate forum for Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): May we him to develop his case. have a debate on issues that Liberal Democrats vote for Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab): in this House and then oppose in their constituencies? I British Midland Airways recently announced the withdrawal suggest that we have a fortnight’s debate to make sure of its service between Glasgow and Heathrow. That will that we can get all the issues in. result in hundreds of job losses, and will also have an impact on the local economy and the travelling public. Sir George Young: The hon. Gentleman is treading May we have a debate on the future of domestic airlines? on dangerous territory, because I recall a campaign on It appears that the major British companies are opting post offices in the previous Parliament when a large for the more profitable transatlantic flights and abandoning number of Labour Members said that they would oppose the domestic routes. post office closures, but then voted against the motion that we put before the House. Sir George Young: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s concern, which I am sure is shared by his constituents. I Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): I have recently cannot promise a debate, but I will raise the matter with received a number of representations from constituents the Secretary of State for Transport and ask him to about empty property rates. Would the Leader of the write to the hon. Gentleman. House consider having an urgent debate on the matter? 1045 Business of the House3 FEBRUARY 2011 Business of the House 1046

Sir George Young: There may be an opportunity for Sir George Young: I understand the point that my my hon. Friend to raise that issue on Wednesday when hon. Friend makes. There are consequences for the the House debates local government finance. I understand House and for Committees if we move the sitting time the concern of those who are leaving their property forward to 9 o’clock. I say to him what I said to the hon. empty not because they want to but because they cannot Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan), which is find any tenants. I will raise that matter with my right that the Procedure Committee will hold an inquiry into hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Communities and sitting hours. It awaits, with mounting anticipation, the Local Government. representations from my hon. Friend.

Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab): Can the David Cairns (Inverclyde) (Lab): Such is the enormous Leader of the House tell us whether the draft counter- concern among those on both sides of the House about terrorism Bill is ready? If it is not ready, why have a the Government’s plans to close many of our coastguard succession of Ministers, including the Home Secretary, stations that yesterday’s Westminster Hall debate was told us that it will be in the Library very soon? completely oversubscribed and many hon. Members did not get the opportunity to speak. Given that, can Sir George Young: No date was given when the relevant the Leader of the House schedule a longer debate on Minister made the statement to the House, which I these plans, which are greatly concerning many of our believe was a fortnight ago. The shadow Leader of the seaside communities. The plans were described to me by House told us that cross-party talks might take place on a shipping expert in the following terms: this issue so, given that background, it might be sensible “I honestly believe this is complete madness and will result in not to publish a Bill straight away. disaster”. Sir George Young: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s Kwasi Kwarteng (Spelthorne) (Con): Given that the concern, which I know is shared. I cannot promise a number of managers in the national health service debate in Government time, but perhaps he and other increased five times faster than the number of nurses, Members who are affected by the proposals could go to does my right hon. Friend think it would be a good idea the salon of the Chair of the Backbench Business to have a debate on best management practice in Committee to put in a bid for a debate, either in the government? House or in Westminster Hall.

Sir George Young: My hon. Friend rightly makes a Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): The special point that was also made in last week’s debate on the constabulary is an important part of the policing family, Health and Social Care Bill. I hope that it will be and specials make a significant contribution to the fight re-emphasised in Committee. It is indeed our policy to against crime and antisocial behaviour in Pendle. National reduce the overheads of running the NHS and put the specials weekend takes place on 12 and 13 February, so resources saved into front-line care. may we have an urgent debate on the important role that specials play and how we can recognise the contribution Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): May we they make? have a debate in Government time on the tax gap and the contribution that reducing that gap could make to Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend tackling the deficit? Estimates of the gap vary from £20 for bringing to the House’s attention the fact that billion to £100 billion, and we need to clarify the national specials weekend is coming up. Specials play a situation. I note that the Government have invested an key role in tackling crime and antisocial behaviour, and additional £900 million to gain £7 billion in additional as part of the policing family. We want to do all we can tax. Given that tax offices have closed, would it not be to support them and see this group of volunteers as a sensible to have a debate so that we can clarify whether good example of the big society. we should be investing in this system, rather than reducing it? Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): Many musicians, especially violinists, are having difficulties with and Sir George Young: As the hon. Gentleman said himself, facing inconsistencies from the airlines about carrying we are investing in the system. We have put an extra their musical instruments on planes. Will the Government £900 million into tax collection, precisely to reduce the make urgent representations to the airlines, which have gap. He will have an opportunity on Tuesday to cross- different policies, to ensure that the expensive instruments question the Chancellor on this matter. do not have to be put in the hold and do not have to be classified as hand luggage? Mr Ben Wallace (Wyre and Preston North) (Con): I read with interest the Leader of the House’s submission Sir George Young: This issue certainly arose a few to the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority years ago when there was a big change in the level of today, including his specific point about family-friendly airport security, but I thought that the matter had been hours. May I recommend, or ask him to consider, a resolved and that violinists were able to take their change that would neither cost the taxpayer any money, instruments with them. If that is not the case, I will raise nor have anything to do with IPSA, which is to bring the matter with the Secretary of State for Transport to forward the time of Thursday sitting from 10.30 am to 9 see whether we can overcome the problem. am, so that colleagues in this House who do not live in the home counties can get home to their families in the Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): Would the Leader north and west of England, Wales, Scotland and Shropshire of the House find time for a debate on antisocial before midnight? behaviour and bullying of children by children outside 1047 Business of the House3 FEBRUARY 2011 Business of the House 1048

[Nick de Bois] extensive debate. If and when we get the Bill back in this House, there might be an opportunity for him to raise the school gate? Evidence on this was provided to me by the matter, but of course, that would not apply until children at Carterhatch junior school in my constituency, after the next election and into a new Parliament, and such a debate would allow us to consider their whereas the proposals for MPs would apply before the recommendations for dealing with it. election.

Sir George Young: My hon. Friend will know that I Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): Gatwick airport is have announced the date of the Second Reading of the located in my constituency, as are many travel companies. Education Bill, which contains clauses that deal directly Given the recent crises in tourist destinations such as with discipline at school, giving teachers and heads Tunisia and Egypt, in an uncertain world, will the greater powers to tackle antisocial behaviour. He may Foreign and Commonwealth Office consider making a therefore have an opportunity on Tuesday to raise the statement on the sort of co-ordinated advice it can give matter with Ministers. to travel firms about repatriating tourists?

Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): May we have an Sir George Young: I think the FCO has a website that urgent debate on the future of citizens advice bureaux is regularly updated, which gives advice to those who funding, which has been squeezed by both local and are thinking of travelling overseas. It includes FCO central Government? When I raised the matter with the advice on the desirability of going to those destinations Treasury, I was told that it was looking to enhance the and the precautions that travellers should take. However, role of citizens advice bureaux, given the rising I shall raise with the Foreign Secretary the issue that my unemployment and debt. Extra resources will be needed hon. Friend has touched on. to do that, so may we have a debate on that important point? Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): The Department for International Development will publish the conclusions Sir George Young: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s of the multilateral and bilateral aid reviews at the end of concern, and this subject was raised last week. Following February. Given that they could change the way in that, my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the which we spend billions of pounds around the world, Treasury wrote to the hon. Member for Stretford and will the Leader of the House please ensure that they will Urmston (Kate Green) and a copy of the letter was put be accompanied by an oral statement to the House? in the Library. I suggest that the hon. Gentleman has a look at it, because it sets out our proposals to establish a Sir George Young: I cannot guarantee that they will money advice service, delivering the UK’s first nationally be accompanied by an oral statement, but I will raise available free financial advice service. the hon. Gentleman’s point with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for International Development to James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con): make sure that the House is kept informed. My constituents can enjoy good local tourist attractions such as Halesowen abbey and Dudley zoo. May we have Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con): I a debate about the importance of promoting areas of welcome the Government’s moves to reduce the top rate the country that are not commonly thought of as being and the small profits rate of corporation tax. Will the tourist destinations, in order to drive economic growth Leader of the House find time for a debate on having a and job creation? single, flat rate of corporation tax, which would give UK plc a unique competitive advantage in the global Sir George Young: The Minister with responsibility economy? for tourism, the Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport, my hon. Friend the Member Sir George Young: There are Treasury questions on for Weston-super-Mare (John Penrose), will develop a Tuesday, in which my hon. Friend might be able to tourism strategy. I might suggest to him that he should cross-question Treasury Ministers, but he is right to visit Halesowen abbey and Dudley zoo as part of the draw attention to the coalition Government’s proposals strategy of promoting tourism within the country without to reduce corporation tax to make this the most competitive damaging outbound tourism. country in Europe in which to do business.

Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op): Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): Will the Leader of the House be bringing forward I think the Leader of the House has been made aware of proposals to limit and reduce the number of Ministers the fact that I wrote to the Chancellor on 1 November in the Government? I am sure that he is aware that in about one of my constituents and that I did not receive 1856 there were 58 Ministers in the Government, 15 of a reply until 25 January, some 86 days later, without whom held Cabinet rank. Today, there are 119 Ministers, even an apology for the delay. Given that the Government 23 of whom hold Cabinet rank. If the Government are have committed to getting all Members a reply within so keen to go forward with their unilateral reduction in 20 working days, will he update the House as to why the the number of MPs, surely it is only right that the Treasury has neither courtesy nor punctuality? number of Ministers should be reduced pro rata as well. Sir George Young: The Government are committed Sir George Young: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. to providing timely replies to hon. Members and I am We had an extensive debate on this when the Parliamentary sorry for the delay. I have seen the letter, which does Voting System and Constituencies Bill was going through offer an apology for the delay in responding, and I shall this House. It is now in another place where there is also raise the matter again with my colleagues in the Treasury. 1049 Business of the House3 FEBRUARY 2011 Business of the House 1050

Of course, there will be an opportunity for the hon. Sir George Young: The Government are determined Gentleman to repeat his point on Tuesday, when Treasury to get the Bill through in time to hold the referendum Ministers will be here. on the proposed date. I very much regret that there have been some very loquacious interventions down the other Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): The village of end which have impeded the progress of the Bill. The Sutton Weaver is divided by two separate postcodes, point I was making was that in order to have fewer MPs which has caused numerous problems to my constituents. in the next Parliament, we have to pass legislation now, Despite a very strong campaign by Sutton parish council, but that we do not have to pass any legislation now to Royal Mail has refused to unify the village under a reduce the number of Ministers in the next Parliament. single postcode. May we have a debate on applications for postcode changes and enhancing local democracy? Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): May we have an urgent debate on the provision of Sir George Young: I understand my hon. Friend’s literacy and numeracy training for MPs? Successive concern. I shall pass his comments on to my right hon. shadow Chancellors have certainly struggled with the Friend the Business Secretary. My hon. Friend will be latter and cannot recognise a structural deficit even familiar with the code of practice that governs changes when they see it. to Royal Mail’s postcode address file, known as PAF. Royal Mail will consider making changes only if they Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. It will not materially affect the efficiency of its nationwide is indeed the case that we were running a substantial network of operations. structural deficit before we hit the financial recession and the problem with the banks. Anyone who denies Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): In his earlier that there was a structural deficit denies the reality. remarks about IPSA, the Leader of the House was right to stress the importance of maintaining independence. Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): After the Will he similarly ensure that MPs will never again be Prime Minister’s very kind and generous statement to asked to vote on their own pay and that this matter will the 1922 committee that all Conservative MPs will remain free from political influence? either have a seat after the next election or be sent to the House of Lords, may we have an extra debate on the Sir George Young: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s reduction of representation Bill? As a historian, will concern. He will have seen my written ministerial statement the Leader of the House say whether there is any last month, which I put on the Order Paper, indicating example in the history of parliamentary reform that has what would happen for this year. Looking further ahead, led to a reduction in representation in this House? it is proposed, under the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010, that MPs pay, allowances and Sir George Young: Well, the right hon. Gentleman’s pensions will be determined by an independent body. Government reduced the representation of Scottish MPs, so that is a fairly easy one to answer. I have the privilege Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): On the eve of attending the 1922 committee—he would be very of national apprenticeship week, may we have a debate welcome to cross the Floor and see the light—but I am to highlight the Government’s excellent policies in this not aware of such a specific undertaking. If he had any area, which make it much easier to take on board new idea of how Conservative associations work, he would employees as apprentices than under the previous know that the notion that anyone could be guaranteed a Government? seat in the next Parliament is very ambitious indeed.

Sir George Young: My hon. Friend is right—there are Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ 75,000 more apprenticeships and we have protected the Co-op): May we have an urgent statement from the science budget. This is, indeed, laying the foundations Government on the timing of election counts in Scotland? for future growth. There have been reports this week of election administrators saying they will not start counting until Friday. They Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): The Leader of the tried that on in the general election and in the last House did not make any reference to Bills coming back Scottish elections, but it is unacceptable—people in from the House of Lords in his statement. I presume Scotland want to know the shape of their Government that is because he knows that Report in the House of as soon as possible. As the Secretary of State for Scotland Lords can take up to eight or nine days and that Third retains responsibility for elections to Scottish Parliament, Reading cannot be on the same day as Report, so there may we have a statement as soon as possible so that he is currently no prospect of the Government getting can pull the election administrators into line? their Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill in time for a referendum on the alternative vote on 5 Sir George Young: I understand that the Advocate- May unless they make consensual concessions. Will he General in another place has made a very clear statement urge his colleagues to do that? on this, but I shall certainly raise the matter again with I think it was a slip of the tongue when he said earlier him and ask him to write to the hon. Gentleman. that the cut in the number of MPs would apply during this Parliament. I know the Government have been Mr Speaker: I thank colleagues for their co-operation, threatening guillotines in the House of Lords, but culls as a result of which all 47 Back Benchers who wished to in the House of Commons might be a step too far. contribute had the chance to do so. 1051 3 FEBRUARY 2011 Proposed Directive (Information 1052 Systems) Proposed Directive (Information Systems) into their legislation. It will also ensure that member states respond quickly to requests from other member 12.18 pm states for assistance in cybercrime cases. Those measures will benefit Britain and other countries that have active The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the online economies, because it will mean that cyber-criminals Home Department (James Brokenshire): With permission, will not be able to hide in European countries that do Mr Speaker, I would like to make a statement on the not have as well developed laws against cybercrime as proposed European directive on attacks against information we do. systems, which we have decided to opt in to. The directive also seeks to address the threat from Hon. Members will not need me to tell them how large-scale attacks on information systems by ensuring much we benefit from the services that are now available that member states have adequate legislation to allow online. In 15 years, the number of global web users has the prosecution and punishment of those organising, jumped from 16 million in 1995 to more than 1.7 billion committing or supporting large-scale attacks. That is today. About three quarters of all British households not a hypothetical threat: it is a real, existing problem now have an internet connection, and last year nearly for the British Government and British business. Finally, two thirds of all adults in Britain bought goods or the directive sensibly takes into account changes in the services online. threat picture since the framework decision was agreed, We want to build on our cultural and economic such as tackling the creation of malicious software and success in the online world, but with the growth of the other innovative tools that criminals have invented to internet has come the growth of a new type of crime commit offences. and a new risk to our national security. We now face a It is for all of these reasons that we have decided to real, ongoing and persistent threat from other states, opt in to the directive. It fits with our approach of terrorists and criminals operating online. They are stealing making Britain a tougher place for online criminals to commercial secrets, they are trying to take sensitive operate in, and it will mean that the reach of our law Government information and they are defrauding ordinary enforcement agencies extends outside our borders. By people. opting in now, we do not accept that the draft directive Cybercrime, often carried out by organised criminals, is perfect. We will work to ensure the final text is in is now a major and growing threat to all sectors of our Britain’s interests and we will seek to negotiate out any economy, and we should be in no doubt: online attacks proposals we believe are unnecessary. can have a significant real-world impact, from people’s I pay tribute to the work done by the European bank accounts being emptied to industrial plants and Scrutiny Committees of both Houses. They do much to critical infrastructure being disrupted. The risks from ensure that European legislation is right for this country. cyberspace are now so great that the national security On this specific directive, both Committees agree that strategy placed the threat as one of the top tier of risks there is a case for further EU action in this area. to our national security. Cybercrime is a major threat to Britain. The aims of Recognising the seriousness of the threat, the the directive are consistent with the aims of the Government Government are already investing heavily in cyber-security. in protecting our country, our economy, our businesses Following the strategic defence and security review, we and our citizens from those who seek to misuse the committed £650 million of new investment over the online environment. I commend this statement to the next four years to transform our protective capabilities House. in cyberspace. Our response is led by Government, but uses the resources and knowledge of the private sector, including those parts of the private sector that own and Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): I operate large elements of our digital infrastructure. The thank the Minister for providing the Opposition with a programme explicitly depends on building strong copy of the statement in advance of announcement to relationships with like-minded countries around the the House. globe, because the problem is an international one and I have listened carefully to what the Minister said online criminals do not respect international borders. about the Government’s decision to opt in to the draft Here in Britain we have long-standing laws against directive on attacks against information systems. It is computer misuse, but we need to be able to take action clear that there is a growing threat of large-scale also against cyber-criminals operating overseas; it is simultaneous attacks against information systems and therefore clear that we need to work across national an increased use by criminals of so-called botnets— boundaries. That means our law enforcement agencies networks of computers infected by a virus that can be working with their partners overseas to identify suspects, activated remotely. There is clearly a real terrorist threat, gather evidence and bring criminals to justice. The as well. It is right to say that there has to be a robust and European Union directive on attacks against information consistent approach to this problem, not only across the systems supports those aims. The directive builds on an EU but internationally, and we know that a sensible existing 2005 EU framework decision with which Britain way forward is to build on the framework decision was already compliant. It is also consistent with the agreed in 2005. Council of Europe convention on cybercrime, which In a report by the Commission in July 2008, the Britain is in the final stages of ratifying. Opting in implementation of the framework decision was found further demonstrates our commitment to internationally to be relatively good, but a number of new threats had co-ordinated action against online threats. been identified; the draft directive has therefore been The directive will ensure that there is a basic set of produced. The matter was before the European Scrutiny agreed minimum rules in relation to online crimes and Committee on 3 November 2010, at which time the penalties across the EU that member states must build Government still had not decided whether to opt in to 1053 Proposed Directive (Information 3 FEBRUARY 2011 Proposed Directive (Information 1054 Systems) Systems) the draft directive. I, too, pay tribute to the hard work James Brokenshire: I thank the hon. Lady for her that the Committees in both Houses do on behalf of broad welcoming of this decision and the actions that us all. the Government are taking to combat the threat of I welcome the decision, but I have a number of cybercrime and on cyber-security. This is probably the questions for the Minister. First, why has the decision first time that the House has had the opportunity to been made now to opt in to the draft directive? After the debate a number of these issues and ask questions on European Scrutiny Committee had considered the matter, them, so I welcome the opportunity as part of our the Minster wrote to the Chair of that Committee scrutiny of EU directives. stating that a decision on whether to opt in had to be With regard to the hon. Lady’s questions, I can made by 23 December 2010, and promising to let the assure her that the opt-in decision was made in time, so Committee know the decision at that point. I understand there is no issue of any harm in that sense. The negotiations that he then wrote to the Chair of the Committee on 31 and detailed consideration of the directive were started January confirming that the UK was opting in to the only recently, so the UK’s position has in no way been directive. When was the decision actually made? Was it compromised by our decision. Indeed, the timing has made before 23 December? If the decision was delayed, been part of respecting the parliamentary scrutiny— why? allowing the three-month period so that the European In his statement, the Minister said, “By opting in Committees can do their work. now, we do not accept that the draft directive is perfect. The hon. Lady raised questions about changes to We will work to ensure the final text is in Britain’s legislation and made other points on how implementation interests and we will seek to negotiate out any proposals might take place. I think that it would be premature to we believe are unnecessary.” Would it not have been address those points directly until we see the final more consistent and logical to have opted in to the draft version of the directive, which is still subject to further directive much earlier, to ensure that the British government discussion and consideration. We will investigate clearly could influence it and have their say? On such a matter, and set out for the House properly how we intend to and given that we are building on the already well take matters forward once the directive has been finalised. established 2005 framework decision, was it not in our interest to have our say early on? Why wait until the end The hon. Lady asked questions about the national of the process? contact point and about statistics, information and funding. As I have set out, the Government take the Secondly, we understand that there will have to be issue of cybercrime and cyber-security very seriously, changes to domestic legislation on issues such as which is highlighted by the £650 million that the UK extraterritorial jurisdiction and including all the offences has committed as part of its national cyber-security set out in articles 6 and 7. Will the Minister explain the programme. We are considering carefully how allocations exact changes that will be required, in particular to the will be made for that, taking account of the need to Computer Misuse Act 1990 and any other legislation? ensure that the UK continues to respond effectively to When will the House be asked to deal with those the challenges posed from the online environment. matters? I welcome the hon. Lady’s broad welcoming of the Thirdly, the directive sets out the need for a national decision to opt in. We see positive benefits and direct contact point to provide an initial response to urgent advantages from the directive. On her point about the requests for information within eight hours. With the EU directive on human trafficking, we did not decide to transition from the Serious Organised Crime Agency to opt in at the outset because it contained no operation or the National Crime Agency, what ring-fenced funding co-operation measures from which the UK would have will be available for the initial response work, and how benefitted. We have said that we will review that position will the overall cuts to the Home Office budget affect after implementation of the directive, at which point the the ability to provide that response? UK could apply to opt in retrospectively. Fourthly, under article 15, there is a requirement for the collection of statistical information on offences covered by the draft directive, including details of the Several hon. Members rose— number of offences reported, the follow-up and the number of investigations, prosecutions and convictions Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. Owing each year. Although the Minister has indicated previously to the pressure on time, please could we have short that some of those data are already collected, what questions and short answers? further resources will be needed to ensure that the full datasets are collected, and who will do that? What additional resources have been allocated for the purpose Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): The Minister may from the £650 million he mentioned? not be surprised to hear that, as Chair of the European Scrutiny Committee, I do not agree with his assertion Fifthly, what plans does the Minister have for dealing that this has been done in accordance with due process. with the increase in penalties to a maximum term of The former Leader of the House of Lords gave an imprisonment of not less than five years? Does he undertaking that, in matters of opt-ins, an indication envisage creating a new offence to deal with aggravating would be given to the Committee in advance of their factors, or increasing the length of existing sentences? intention. That indication has not been given. The draft Finally, may press the Minister on another matter? is still under scrutiny and is currently deficient, as the Although we welcome the announcement of the opt-in Minister has conceded. What is the point of having a to this directive, it is deeply disappointing that the scrutiny process if it is compromised by decisions taken Government have failed to opt in to the draft directive in advance of that consideration in full by the Committee, on human trafficking. We ask them to think again. which would no doubt have recommended a debate? 1055 Proposed Directive (Information 3 FEBRUARY 2011 Proposed Directive (Information 1056 Systems) Systems) James Brokenshire: I hear my hon. Friend’s point. We Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): Does obviously reflected on the conclusion from the Committee’s the Minister agree that by opting in to the directive we initial response on the directive, which stated: will strengthen the UK’s leadership role in the fight “We agree that large-scale attacks against information systems against cybercrime and that, were the UK to sign up to are likely to have a cross-border dimension and require close the EU directive on human trafficking, we could provide co-operation between Member States. We think that the legal additional leadership in that field as well? base proposed is appropriate and accept that there is a case for further EU action to respond to new methods and tools for James Brokenshire: As I have said, we keep the position committing cyber crime.” on the human trafficking directive under review. I think As he will realise, there is a three-month period in which that the directive that we are considering today has the UK must respond to those issues. We take scrutiny clear benefits and builds on the work of the Council of very seriously. Indeed, making this statement on the Europe’s convention on cybercrime, which, interestingly, Floor of the House underlines the important that we the previous Government signed up to in 2001 but never place on allowing scrutiny to be applied. Obviously, the got around to ratifying. That highlights the importance directive still requires more work and consideration in that this Government place on international co-operation the negotiation, and that is precisely what the Government when dealing with these important matters. will do. Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): I welcome the Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Does the Minister statement, but cybercrime does not recognise international not understand that when Britain is dilatory in signing or EU boundaries, as my hon. Friend recognises, so will up to new directives and pieces of legislation, particularly he confirm that there is nothing in the directive that will those which have obvious cross-border relevance, it is prevent us from seeking to co-operate with other deleterious to the British interest, because we are unable Commonwealth countries, our friends in the United to take part in the full process of developing the policy? States and other like-minded countries to combat that What he said earlier about why we are signing up to this menace? directive but not yet to the directive on people trafficking makes absolutely no sense. James Brokenshire: My hon. Friend makes an important point about the need for international co-operation. It James Brokenshire: We examine the directives on a is one of the reasons that we have ratified the European case-by-case basis, and I have set out clearly that we convention on cybercrime, which has in fact been signed decided to opt in to this directive so that we could be up to by a number of countries outside Europe, including part of the negotiations. As I said in response to the the United States. We take the important issue of hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana international co-operation very seriously, and the directive Johnson), the human trafficking directive contained no we have decided to opt in to underlines and telegraphs co-operational measures from which the UK would that commitment, but clearly there is work to do with benefit, which was why we decided not to opt in, but we countries outside the EU as well. certainly keep the issue under review. Mr Ben Wallace (Wyre and Preston North) (Con): Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con): The motivation Nowadays, investigators need access to current and behind the change in the law might or might not be historical data in order to achieve a successful prosecution worth while, but there is a question about how and in cybercrime and other internet crimes. In the past, the where we determine the legislation that governs this United Kingdom wanted seven years to be the key country. Will the Minister confirm that this directive measure throughout Europe of the time that IT providers, has been agreed notwithstanding the fact that it was banks and so on held back-data, so that we could get held under reserve by the European Scrutiny Committee proper investigations going. Does the directive set a and that it involves a change in the law and, apparently, limit and require all EU Governments to place a duty the creation of new criminal offences, all of which are on IT providers to hold data for the same time? taking place without an opportunity for a debate in this House, let alone a vote? Has our law-making process James Brokenshire: The directive is focused on the not been bypassed altogether so that we now have a law criminality and on cyber-attacks. It includes provisions that, whatever its merits, has simply been made in on mutual co-operation, but it does not set the sort of Brussels? framework to which my hon. Friend refers.

James Brokenshire: I simply do not agree with my Lorraine Fullbrook (South Ribble) (Con): Will the hon. Friend’s analysis. We have allowed scrutiny of the Minister confirm that the measure is not about sovereignty, approach and of the directive. I hear his point, but the but about practical co-operation that is vital to our implementation of the directive will take place in this national interests? country, and I think that the importance of cross-border working on an issue such as cybercrime, where close James Brokenshire: My hon. Friend sums up the co-operation is needed, means that that work at EU measure very well. It is very much focused on practical level is important. We clearly keep the interests of the co-operation and on ensuring common standards, which, British people at the heart of our intentions, to ensure building on co-operation, better information and mutual that the decisions made add to their protection, which is assurance, provide practical benefits for the United threatened by increasing levels of cybercrime and by Kingdom, given the challenges that we face from cybercrime those who wish to prey on them using computers and committed not only in this country, but in other EU the internet. countries. 1057 Proposed Directive (Information 3 FEBRUARY 2011 Proposed Directive (Information 1058 Systems) Systems) Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): The pillar measures that are subject to the potential block Minister refers to the Council of Europe convention, opt-out in 2014. I hesitate to go into the technicalities, which covers 47 countries plus the United States and but we have clearly opted in to the directive, so it falls other countries, but what added value does the directive within the Title V base rather than the third pillar base. have when compared with that convention? If the directive It was a technical question, and I am sorry for that is inadequately drafted, as my hon. Friend the Member rather technical response. for Stone (Mr Cash) says it is, why do we not wait to see whether it can be correctly drafted before we sign up Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): In Dover, we see to it? human trafficking and all too often the evil perpetrated by international gangs in the physical sphere. We should James Brokenshire: The directive builds on the convention sign up to directives only when we get information-sharing and deals with certain additional issues, such as the and international assistance, because crime knows no response that other EU countries provide to requests borders, but can the Minister reassure the House that for information on cyber-related attacks and cybercrimes, there will be no mission creep from cybercrime to the so we think that it has important benefits. It is precisely snooping that we have seen under the Regulation of because of those practical benefits that we think it Investigatory Powers Act 2000? appropriate to opt in at this point and to negotiate on and change the drafting where it requires further work. James Brokenshire: My hon. Friend makes a very We believe that, because of the directive’s practical and important point, and, in striking the right balance, we direct benefits, it is important to be there and do that. approach those issues with the rights of the individual’s freedoms and liberties very much at the forefront of this Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): Will the Minister Government’s mind. We believe that the directive is help me on a technical point? I understand that the important and will add value, but we will approach directive is a repeal-and-replace measure; it repeals a those issues with liberty and freedom at the forefront of directive to which the UK is party and replaces it with a our mind. new version. If the UK had opted out of the directive—I Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): I have been a victim am glad that it has not—would it have still considered of mobile telephone fraud, so will the directive have the itself bound by the original 2005 framework decision? scope to deal with cybercrime in connection with such If not, what would the implications have been for UK fraud? cyber-security, given that that framework decision provides for police and judicial co-operation on cross-border James Brokenshire: The directive is very much focused cyber-threats? on computers and computer systems, rather than on telephones and mobiles, but, as telephone calls and James Brokenshire: I am very grateful for the hon. Skype add to computers’ ability to facilitate contact, Gentleman’s question, which transcends this directive, such communication might be brought within the scope which is a Title V measure, as contrasted with the third of the directive. 1059 3 FEBRUARY 2011 1060 Points of Order Backbench Business 12.45 pm [18TH ALLOTTED DAY] Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am gravely concerned about the Consumer Credit and Debt Management manner in which the previous business has been dealt with. There appear to be a stream of such opt-ins in the Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Mr Speaker pipeline, so I suggest that appropriate action be taken to has selected the amendment in the name of Robin ensure that at least the Chairman of the European Walker and several other hon. Members. Scrutiny Committee—myself—is given adequate notice and advance warning of any such statement, because the Committee has been effectively bounced, and that is 12.47 pm not in the interests of the good order of this House, in Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op): I beg to the Standing Orders or in the spirit of the undertaking move, that the former Leader of the House of Lords gave. That this House notes with alarm recent evidence showing a fourfold increase in the use of payday lending since the beginning Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): That is not a of the recession and that high cost credit lenders advanced point of order for the Chair. It seems to be an extension approximately £7.5 billion to low and middle income consumers of the statement that we have just had, but Members on in 2008 alone; recognises the problems of financial exclusion, lack the Treasury Bench will have heard what the hon. of financial and debt management education, lack of price Gentleman said. competitiveness in the unsecured lending market and the near monopoly positions of many large lenders which contribute to the high costs of borrowing; considers that without action these Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): On a factors could worsen family debt, poverty and financial difficulties point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. “Erskine May”, at to the detriment of the economic recovery; therefore calls upon page 412, says: the Government to introduce, alongside measures to increase “The Speaker has deprecated as ‘unparliamentary’ the practice access to affordable credit, regulatory powers that put in place a of voting in both lobbies as a demonstration of a ‘third’ position.” range of caps on prices in areas of the market in unsecured lending which are non price-competitive, likely to cause detriment Last night, in Division 189 on the Government’s to consumers or where there is evidence of irresponsible practice; amendment to the Opposition’s motion, 17 Liberal and believes that such caps should take account of the desirability Democrats abstained or did not vote and a further six of maintaining access to affordable and responsible credit, the voted both for and against—and four of them had likely impact on the supply of credit and the cost of enforcement, voted for and against the main motion a few minutes that they should be regularly reviewed and that they should use earlier. Will you, Mr Deputy Speaker, repeat the ruling the total cost of credit, calculated on a yearly basis, to ensure that that it is unparliamentary for hon. Members, whether lender avoidance and distortions in price are prevented. Liberal Democrats or from any other party, to behave It gives me great pleasure to present to the House in that way? today an opportunity to put on record its support for the introduction of caps on the total cost of lending, Mr Deputy Speaker: While such action is not out of and so protect Britain’s poorest consumers from the order, Mr Speaker and his predecessors have deemed it practices of so-called legal loan sharks. My introductory unparliamentary. The hon. Gentleman’s point will have remarks are set out in three sections. I shall address, been heard on both sides of the House, and the Speaker first, the problems; secondly, how the proposals would will reflect upon the matter. tackle them; and thirdly, in seeking people’s support for the motion, the concerns that they might have about the proposals. To begin with, however, I shall tackle what we are not talking about today. The proposal is not about a usury law or about setting a single cap for interest rates. Previous Governments rightly concluded that that would not be the right thing to do. All the briefings that Members have received from industry lobbyists have been about such proposals, and the often cited Office of Fair Trading research is also about such an idea, but let me stress that there are flaws in that proposal, which is why we suggest that something different needs to take place. I shall also be clear that this is not a debate about how we abolish the high-cost lending market, or about stopping people borrowing. Credit is a vital part of the economy and, clearly, a part of the UK lifestyle. Indeed, one challenge that we face during our economic recovery is to encourage people to take a sensible and sustainable approach to credit, because, given how we live in the UK, it is a key part of our future. Debt and credit is a much greater part of the UK’s psyche than any other country’s. As Third Sector Foresight points out, Britain has double the debt of continental European countries, and personal savings are at their 1061 Consumer Credit and Debt 3 FEBRUARY 2011 Consumer Credit and Debt 1062 Management Management lowest levels since the 1940s. In April last year, private “If you have nothing with which to pay, why should your bed debt in the UK stood at a whopping £1.4 billion, and be taken from under you?” living that way has its own consequences. Surveys by When people cannot pay, their beds and their fridges PricewaterhouseCoopers show that debt levels in our are taken from them. society mean that the average household is paying 15% of its net income purely on the interest it owes to service Stella Creasy: My hon. Friend makes an eloquent such debts. point. Indeed, I am grateful for the support that we Our focus in this debate is on a very specific aspect of have had from Church Action on Poverty for the campaign credit provision. The high-cost credit market is very and for the proposals before the House. different in its practices in comparison with other, more mainstream forms of lending. We are talking about the Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): Does the hon. Lady payday loans of £100 until the end of the month that agree that the Bills of Sale Act 1878, which enables keep getting repeated, the doorstep lending of £200 that lenders to go into people’s homes and take property, is offered to people so that they can buy a new sofa, and should be reviewed, because that is an unintended the hire purchase agreements offering deals that people consequence of the Act? sign so that their kids can have a new TV. Stella Creasy: The hon. Gentleman raises an interesting Above all, this debate is about the spiralling costs at point which Members might want to cover during the the heart of such loans, because it is the rates that debate. people charge that make this a billion-pound industry. It is all legal, and it is all growing. While some forms of Most importantly, we are looking at the principle of high-cost lending have been with us for generations, we how we could stop people getting into such high levels have also seen in this country a rapid expansion in the of debt because of the rates they are charged for the scale and use of these forms of credit in the past few borrowing that they undertake. years alone. That is driven in part by the drying up of mainstream credit. PricewaterhouseCoopers reports a Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): Has staggering 79% drop in secured lending in the past year. my hon. Friend noticed that these businesses and shops Research by Consumer Focus predicts a rise in payday are advertised on television? Does she have anything to lending alone of 40% to 45% in the next few years. say about that? There has also been a fourfold increase in payday lending since 2008. Stella Creasy: I do indeed, but I will leave that to my I see for myself the impact that this has on my much more eloquent colleague, my hon. Friend the community in Walthamstow. Our high street now has a Member for Darlington (Mrs Chapman), who has done large number of shops offering short-term loans, hire some sterling work in introducing proposals on how we purchase agreements and credit deals. That is a badge might address some of the problems caused by advertising. of poverty. These companies see our fragile economic It is the captive nature of this market that makes conditions as fertile ground. The aptly named Mr Crook, intervention so key. The lack of competition for these who is the chief executive of Provident Financial, the products keeps prices artificially high, along with profits. largest home credit company, says that he expects a The Office of Fair Trading says that there is not enough growth in his target market as a direct result of the of what it calls “substitutivity”. Let me put it more comprehensive spending review. Who does he mean by simply. As the industry itself admits, 25% of home that? He means those with poor credit histories and credit users and 23% of payday users have no other those with no credit histories. In my cosmopolitan credit option. Consequently, these companies can extract corner of London, one of these companies employs what might be termed an economic rent. They set the only people who speak more than two languages, so terms of the trade in what they will lend at a risk that is that they can target newly arrived residents who do not much too high for consumers. In this context, I pay understand or know the British banking system. He tribute to the work of the right hon. Member for also means those who are facing redundancy or are Welwyn Hatfield (Grant Shapps), who is now a member newly unemployed. of the Government, and who published a report in 2009 Indeed, as we see higher levels of unemployment, the highlighting the lack of competition in this market and need to act quickly becomes even greater. As a lady its consequences. As he said, from Leicester who recently contacted me pointed out, “We think it is obscene that anyone should end up paying as a public service employee on a redundancy notice she 10,000% APR, particularly when the evidence suggests that these could not borrow from either her bank or her local loans are targeted at some of the most vulnerable members of our society”. credit union, so what other option does she have? That is when this kind of lending becomes a problem. Some These are people for whom such repayments become can manage such credit, but the toxic mix of low a weight on their finances and their families—people incomes, perpetual interest payments and no choice who do not have large amounts of disposable income affects too many people in our country. and for whom any change in circumstance, be it divorce, job loss or increases in rent, can tip them into destitution. The Consumer Credit Counselling Service says that one Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): My hon. in eight people who contacted it for help with such Friend is making her case most eloquently.My constituency unsecured debts in the first half of last year were on also has shops where people pay possibly three times as jobseeker’s allowance. Contrary to what might have much for white goods, furniture and so forth. Is she been suggested this morning on the “Today” programme, aware that, although the problem is intensifying, it is one in 10 payday loan customers is on £11,000 per year not new? I wonder whether she has read Proverbs 22: or less. These are people like the man who contacted me 1063 Consumer Credit and Debt 3 FEBRUARY 2011 Consumer Credit and Debt 1064 Management Management [Stella Creasy] my hon. Friend agree that this issue should garner cross-party support to stop the exploitation of ordinary because he currently has nine payday loans that he is working families? trying to pay off. One company, Wonga, is chasing him for £1,600 for an £800 loan that is 40 days overdue. The Stella Creasy: Indeed, in the spirit of cross-party first loan was meant to be a stop-gap to bridge the gap support, I was delighted to hear the Mayor of London between one job and the next pay cheque, but the say that the rates that these companies charge are interest in itself quickly becomes the long-term debt. extortionate. I hope that I can convince him to take If those are the problems, what are the solutions? more action on the matter for Londoners. I have been struck by the response to our market Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): I am grateful to from people from other countries. As a local MP, I my hon. Friend for the very powerful argument that she regularly leaflet for my local credit union outside the is making. Does she agree that part of the problem is premises of the legal loan sharks in my high street. Last that a vicious cycle develops, whereby companies use Friday, I spent 20 minutes trying to explain to an the rate of default to justify the increasing percentage outraged Polish woman that the companies could charge that they are charging on the loans? That is a completely her such rates; something that does not happen in her fallacious argument, but one that they always advance country. As her English was not great and my Polish to the regulator. was even less so, my gesticulations about where the credit union could be found were perhaps unclear. Stella Creasy: I strongly agree with my hon. Friend. However, her anger and amazement that this was legal Few companies have been able to explain to me precisely in Britain was easy to translate. how they manage to set their rates; they seem to pick a I am not asking hon. Members to come and stand on number out of the air and go with that. However, I will a chilly high street in Walthamstow with me. Recent return to that point in some of my suggestions for European Commission research shows what we should solutions. do and what we should not do. Members may have been There is a new proposal that we, as a House, can take told the edited highlights of that 500-page research forward to address this phenomenon, and that is what document. Having read the whole thing, I will offer the motion is about. It is based on new evidence about them some more. It says that we should learn from the what would work in addressing the impact of such experience in America, where interest rate caps that loans on our constituents. That is why I come to the were set too low have caused problems for lenders and House today not to speak on my own but to speak with consumers. By contrast, it highlights the benefits of a the backing of many different organisations from a European model. Perhaps that is not a winning proposition wide range of sectors. I want to put on record my for some Government Members, but I hope that they thanks to Citizens Advice, which has opposed other will bear with me. measures such as interest rate caps, but in contrast The document shows that many ways of capping are believes that these proposals could offer a way forward; used in different countries. Britain is increasingly isolated to Consumer Focus, who says of this motion that it is in not dealing with this market in the same way. Fourteen “a different, and more considered, approach than the blanket European countries have a form of capping system or a application of a blunt interest-rate-cap”; ceiling on charges. In France, the cap is a third over the to Martin Lewis, a passionate advocate for financial market average. In Slovenia, there is a spread of caps, education, as many Members may have found out earlier with 13% for a long-term loan and 453% for a shorter-term this week, who had also opposed interest rate caps but loan. In Belgium, the cap is based on the amount that is supports these proposals as “much more sensible”; and lent, rather than on the rate. There are different levels to the Better Banking campaign, London Citizens, the for loans below and above ¤1,250. Some countries, such Co-operative movement, Compass, the GMB, Unison, as Ireland, cap only part of the market, whereas others, Church Action on Poverty, the New Economics such as Germany, have limits on all forms of lending. Foundation, the Centre for Responsible Credit, and The motion draws on what has been learned from the countless others, especially those on Twitter, who have examples of what works and what does not. It calls for a supported these proposals. regulator to introduce a series of caps in the areas of the All those people agree that we can have an effective, unsecured lending market in the UK that are not price evidence-based policy, and that we can learn about competitive and where there is evidence that not doing what works from other countries where such measures so would cause consumer detriment. have been introduced. Nothing that I am proposing It is worth considering the nature of the UK high-cost today is rocket science or untried or tested. When we lending market. A range of products is available from talk to those people outside the UK, we find that they short-term payday loans, to complicated hire purchase are surprised that we have not dealt with the problem agreements and home credit arrangements. Because so far. there are no caps in our system, the rates can range from 271% and 440% to an eye-watering 4,000% or more. Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): We, as None of the companies can provide pricing data to parliamentarians, should congratulate my hon. Friend explain why it has arrived at such rates. Under the on this debate. Is she aware that today is the centenary proposal, the regulator would step in and look carefully of the death of Robert Tressell? I am sorry that I am at these markets to determine, on the basis of the unable to stay for the whole debate because I am going evidence, how best to proceed. back to Liverpool—where he was buried, unfortunately Competition is a clear challenge. Just six companies in a pauper’s grave—where there is a series of events. A operate in the home credit industry, one of which owns hundred years on, people are still being exploited. Does 60% of the market. The motion calls for intervention 1065 Consumer Credit and Debt 3 FEBRUARY 2011 Consumer Credit and Debt 1066 Management Management where there is evidence of a lack of competition. It also spin that they have sent to hon. Members. That is a pity highlights the need to intervene when there is evidence because if they had been involved, we could have learned of consumer detriment. Consumer detriment is littered from their experience in considering the appropriate throughout the practices that the companies get away levels of capping. Their churlish opposition to any form with: the rolling over of loans and the compound of price capping and their attempts to conflate concern interest that that generates; the administration fees; and about interest rate caps with this matter highlight a setting the level of loans well beyond the realistic reach disgraceful attitude towards vulnerable consumers. That of their clients’ incomes so they cannot pay them off. is why self-regulation is not an option and why we as Friends Provident today admitted that 29% of payday politicians must move towards intervention. loans are refinanced, and that on average the refinancing We have seen in other industries that where there is a rolls over twice. Some 15% of home credit loans are lack of competition, regulators can work with consumer refinanced and rolled over into a new loan before the representatives and providers to set effective frameworks. end of the term. Those practices are designed to ensure That has happened in the water industry, the energy that consumers pay, but that they never end the relationship. industry and the financial services industry. The proposals Instead, they are caught in a never-ending cycle of therefore build on the best practice in market intervention. payments and loans. I believe that British consumers deserve the best practice. Having set out the proposals, I will take on some of John Pugh (Southport) (LD): The hon. Lady keeps the arguments that have been made against them. In mentioning these companies. She may not be aware that doing so, I urge hon. Members to learn from that most in my constituency, it is national banks that have exploited famous of Dickensian characters, Gradgrind, who argued: migrant workers. The advantage, which we secured, is that they have a regulatory body that called them on it “Facts alone are wanted in life. Plant nothing else, and root out everything else.” and got the system adjusted. Some people have argued that capping the costs of credit would cut lending in the industry and put firms Stella Creasy: The hon. Gentleman makes a good out of the market—a market that Consumer Focus case for regulation, which is what the motion would estimates is worth £35 billion a year. I urge hon. Members introduce. However, it would be considered regulation to read the European Commission research that investigated that takes account of the market and of how it affects that very point and found no evidence to support it. consumers. That is why I have confidence that the Indeed, the OFT research that is often quoted is based proposals would be effective if they were taken forward on an industry study, which says that people could end by the Government. up borrowing from friends and family. Furthermore, Markets change and the motion is about being responsive the EU research found that countries with no caps had to that. It takes into account how consumers and lenders higher levels of illegal lending than those with some interact with the market. It draws its effectiveness from form of cap. an evidence-based process. It is regulation at its best Some people fear that if caps were set, there would be and boldest. Crucially, the proposals overcome the problems a race to the top for all lenders. That suggests that caps associated with previous proposals, which calculated would encourage all banks and building societies to the interest rate. Instead, the total cost of credit would start charging 4,000% interest rates. When Policis considered be considered. That difference makes all the difference. the matter in 2004, it found no evidence to support that There is strong evidence from countries with caps concern. The motion calls for a range of caps to reflect that lenders have tried to avoid them or to compensate different types of loans. That reflects the fact that for their profit loss by applying higher charges. In mainstream banks would not compete with lenders in Poland, following the introduction of caps, lenders the unsecured market. introduced a mysterious convenience fee to make up the difference. The European Commission report shows Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): On the Policis research, that there is support—although not from providers, of the former Labour Minister with responsibility for consumer course—for capping all the costs associated with loans affairs, the hon. Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan), to tackle such behaviour across the sector. The key to stated: that measure will be how the caps are calculated. We “Government carefully considered the case for a cap on interest have proposed that they should be annualised for ease rates following research carried out by Policis in 2004. The of comparison and based on the total cost of the loan, research showed that imposing a cap on interest rates could result rather than the interest rate alone. Calculating on the in lenders withdrawing from the riskier end of the market, including total cost makes it clearer to consumers what they will the home credit market, denying vulnerable consumers access to actually pay. There would be no small print and no legitimate sources of credit”.—[Official Report, 22 March 2010; nasty surprises that undermine people’s attempts to Vol. 508, c. 149W.] budget for repayments. Stella Creasy: It is a pity that the hon. Lady was not The motion is deliberately open about who would here at the start of the debate when I set out clearly that regulate. That is because changes have been proposed the proposal is not for an interest rate cap, but for a cap that would involve a number of bodies in the process, on the total cost of credit. As I said, that is a difference including the Office of Fair Trading and Consumer that makes all the difference to the efficacy of the Focus. The Members who tabled the motion are open proposals. That is why many groups that share the on how the regulatory process should be taken forward, concerns in the research that the hon. Lady has set out, but we want it to be taken forward. are not concerned about these proposals. I urge her to The regulator would work with all stakeholders in the look closely at that distinction. I will press on now industry, including the lenders. I know that the industry because many hon. Members wish to speak and I know is frightened by the proposals because of the amount of that the Minister will have a substantial amount to say. 1067 Consumer Credit and Debt 3 FEBRUARY 2011 Consumer Credit and Debt 1068 Management Management [Stella Creasy] £300 loan by a home credit agency. His family will struggle to repay that debt. He is angry, you bet, but he Another point that has been raised is that new provisions knows that it is all legal. What chance for the next in the Consumer Credit Act 2006, which came into generation if we do not act now? Mr Crook will be force recently, may well change the market. Although licking his lips at their predicament. those provisions are welcome, the protection that they Let us not delay. There is evidence to support my offer presumes that choice is open to consumers and proposals, and there is political will in the House for that if they are simply equipped with clearer pricing and this to happen. Let us consider the motion a belated the chance to rethink loans, that will resolve the problems submission to the credit review, giving the Government that we have discussed. Customers with no alternative, a clear and urgent message that the time for capping struggling to make ends meet, cannot exercise choice or costs has come. Voting for the amendment would dilute avoid borrowing. If someone is tied to the train tracks, that message. The clock is ticking. Research by R3 knowing when the train is coming makes only a limited shows that 44% of people in this country now struggle difference to their chances of survival. Until we give to make ends meet until pay day, and the problem will consumers a level playing field by producing powers to only get worse. Those people are our constituents, and cap costs, we will not change the dynamic of the relationship. they are our responsibility. I ask Members to please give Others have argued that the powers needed already them more than consideration—please give them action. exist, and that the Competition Commission could Support the motion and protect the poorest consumers investigate and act. Indeed, the Office of Fair Trading above the needs of loan sharks. referred the home credit market to the commission in 2004, as the hon. Member for Solihull (Lorely Burt) Several hon. Members rose— pointed out, and came up with various remedies. Here I turn to the views of Citizens Advice, which argues that the problems are getting worse, not better. That shows Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. As hon. that those powers have not worked, so it is time to Members can see, this is a popular debate and a five-minute strengthen the intervention that we make in the market. limit has been introduced, with the usual injury time for the first two interventions. Members do not have to take the full five minutes—if they do not it will mean that Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. The more people can get in—and they do not have to take hon. Lady has already indicated that a lot of Back interventions. Benchers wish to get in. It was recommended that her speech should last 15 minutes, and she is way over that. Could she please bring her remarks to a close? 1.13 pm Stella Creasy: I will, Mr Deputy Speaker. Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con): It is a great Finally, people have suggested that we need to introduce pleasure to speak in this debate and to follow the hon. more competition by encouraging affordable lending, Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy), who made and I agree, but I do not see that there is a choice to be her case with great passion, as I think all Members made between capping the costs of credit and supporting would agree. It is important that we consider the whole credit unions. Furthermore, it will take a long time for issue of indebtedness, which has become a plague on credit unions to become a serious, affordable alternative. our country and will only get worse as time moves on. In contrast, cutting rates would have an impact on We all want appropriate measures in place to protect people’s debts now. those who rely on credit from the activities of unscrupulous lenders. I bring some knowledge to this subject, having I know that some people are concerned about the worked in a previous life as an adviser to the Financial concept of regulation, but in the motion I simply urge Services Consumer Panel. We have long been concerned the Government to close the loophole that they have about the inadequacy of the current framework of created by saying that they will commit to regulation on consumer credit regulation, so now is clearly the appropriate the costs of store cards and credit cards but leave this time for change. vulnerable market untouched. Although I fully support the objective behind the The weight of evidence means that I will hold firm in hon. Lady’s motion—ensuring that there is adequate not accepting the amendment, as much as I welcome regulatory protection for consumers and that regulators the strong cross-party support for the proposals. We all have adequate powers to intervene as appropriate—I know that that support exists, and in these days of new am not sure whether the caps that she describes are politics I want to celebrate it, but I fear that the warm necessarily the answer. However, it is appropriate that embrace of consideration could turn into the slow of we consider the whole breadth of how credit is regulated death of progress without firm direction from the House. as part of the credit review. We should leave no stone The longer we delay affirmative action, the longer our unturned in ensuring that the regulator has the appropriate constituents will pay high rates. tools and, more importantly, the appetite to take Make no mistake, the problem will get worse, not enforcement action where poor practice is identified. I better. As Uriah King of the American Center for was therefore happy to put my name to the amendment. Responsible Lending points out, “payday lenders are aggressively seeking new markets because John Pugh: I assume that as the amendment has been they are being curtailed here in the US”. tabled by Back Benchers to another Back Bencher’s We can all see the consequences in our communities. motion, the Whips will take no part whatever in persuading One example of this is the uncle who came to me last people to vote for or against it. Am I right in making year because his 16-year-old nephew had been given a that assumption? 1069 Consumer Credit and Debt 3 FEBRUARY 2011 Consumer Credit and Debt 1070 Management Management Jackie Doyle-Price: What the Whips choose to do is Jackie Doyle-Price: That is why we must avoid being entirely a matter for them, but I wish to support the prescriptive about how we tackle the problem. We can amendment rather than the motion because the motion make rules, but firms will find ways of getting around is too prescriptive. We have seen credit providers be very them. We could put in place an overarching obligation innovative in finding their way around regulatory for the regulator to say, “We will take action when we obligations, so we should not be too prescriptive. If we think something is not fair”, and we will be able to introduce obligations on providers to treat their customers point out that such practice is not fair by any stretch of fairly and lend responsibly, and obligations on the the imagination. However, we need to set that expectation regulators to be prepared to use their judgment to for the regulator—that it will take action when unfair intervene, we will not need to rely on price-prescriptive activities take place. caps, which might impede our ability to take action The hon. Member for Walthamstow mentioned against bad providers. affordable credit. Ultimately, we will not tackle the problems until more affordable credit is available. With Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- that in mind, I should like to ask what more the Government op): Does the hon. Lady agree that the nature of the can do to establish and foster the growth of credit problem means that urgent action is needed? Her point unions and to think in a big society way. that providers are good at getting around obligations means that a very strong signal from Government is Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): In the light needed, which suggests that we should support more of the hon. Lady’s support for affordable credit, will she prescriptive measures. put pressure on the Government to extend the life of the growth fund? Jackie Doyle-Price: I believe that that actually makes the case for the early introduction of the consumer Jackie Doyle-Price: I was about to say that I am protection and markets authority proposed as part of asking the Government to think in a big society way our reforms to the tripartite regulation system. At the about what they can do to encourage the growth of moment, we have a consumer credit system regulated credit unions. It would be nice if Opposition Members by the OFT, in which the tools available are not very allowed Government Members to make our case, because effective. With the reforms to the tripartite system, we we have as much to advance on this subject as they have. have a great opportunity to state that we expect the new I pay tribute to my local borough council, which has authority to take real action. In the past there has been welcomed Essex Savers credit union into its civic offices a lot of, “Oh dear, isn’t this terrible?” and a lot of and other properties that it owns and manages. I encourage wringing of hands from regulators, but they have had the Government to consider what facilities it could offer no real ability to stop poor providers doing business or to credit unions—post offices were mentioned, but we to give them appropriate penalties. That is what we could also use jobcentres. That would give credit unions want to see from the reform of the regulatory system. access to more savings, and they would therefore be able One reason why many consumers find themselves in to make more loans. I have now run out of time, but I punitive agreements is that often, deals are marketed in hope the Minister takes that on board. terms of the cost per week, so they do not necessarily understand exactly how much they will pay for their 1.21 pm credit. That practice is not just restricted to doorstep lenders and loan sharks, because all too often we see it Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab): I pay tribute on our high streets, as the hon. Member for Walthamstow to my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Stella mentioned. Creasy) for her sterling and tireless work. I also pay I wish to draw attention to one particular organisation, tribute to the cross-party support for her motion and a company called BrightHouse. There is a branch on the widespread support from groups that I do not High street in Grays, and I thought I would do a bit of believe have ever spoken to each other before, which price comparison. At the moment, it is advertising a shows the strength of feeling. nice, attractive 46-inch LED television that currently I am speaking today because of a constituent on retails at £849 in Currys. BrightHouse is retailing it at income support who went to BrightHouse and was told £1,478.11, but it quotes a weekly payment of £13.64. it was fine for them to buy any item, however expensive On the face of it that sounds affordable, but ultimately it was and whatever the rates they would have to pay the customer will pay a total of £2,127.84 for the back. I am here for the couple with children who lost product—two and a half times the price that they their house through redundancy. As well as very large would pay in a normal high street store. That is why we mortgage-related debts, they must pay 10 other debts, need to consider extending affordable credit provisions including five from credit cards, all of which are spiralling more widely, so that consumers are not ripped off by out of control, to a total of £37,000. That is the tip of such companies. the iceberg in just one constituency. Citizens Advice informs me that in my constituency—just one constituency Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): Does my in one part of the country—it is dealing with work hon. Friend agree that in such rent-to-own cases, the relating to debts in excess of £2 million. That cannot be annual percentage rate advertised may well be shown as right, which is why I believe we have such a consensus. 29.9%, which is in fact the cost of the credit, but the Just before Christmas, I received a nice, handwritten grey pricing means that the sticker price is elevated? card in the flat that I rent in Vauxhall. The nice person That highlights exactly how companies try to get around who signed it told me that I could get £300 immediately. whatever measures are put in place, even if they are very The only problem was that the annual percentage rate sophisticated. was 272%, which would mean that I would have to 1071 Consumer Credit and Debt 3 FEBRUARY 2011 Consumer Credit and Debt 1072 Management Management [Susan Elan Jones] consensus in the House would do well to welcome those who support the motion. As I said, I am not generally repay £546. Six companies control 90% of that market inclined to rely on new laws and regulations, but it in the UK. That is scandalous. New Members received seems to me that capping the cost of consumer lending £4,000 loans for office items. What would they think would be a suitable exception. about paying back £7,280? Perhaps I should not have High-cost consumer credit works for some people. It said that quite so loudly—people writing about this can provide a useful bridge across a difficult period. debate might think that it is an excellent idea. Seriously, Some consumers use such services in a fully informed however, that is the problem facing the poorest communities and responsible manner and derive benefit from them. in our country today. However, I also see too many of my constituents caught The hon. Member for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price) up in vicious cycles of debt and trapped by unscrupulous compared prices between an electronics supplier and and irresponsible lending. BrightHouse. In Argos it is possible to buy a 60 cm It can be particularly difficult for people to resist double oven for just under £280, but the total after taking on further unaffordable borrowing when a interest for the same item in BrightHouse is almost representative of the lender is in their home, seemingly £590. That is nonsense—it is immoral and it must be innocently chatting about what will get them through stopped. Christmas or a child’s birthday. Those tactics will be I should like to deal briefly with credit rates, which familiar to colleagues across the House from their surgeries hon. Members have mentioned. Some say that if we act, and casework. In my view, they are exploitative. there is a possibility that people might go elsewhere to In advance of this debate, I was contacted by Glenis access credit. I understand that, but I cannot see too Ansell, a financial inclusion officer from Wiltshire’s many of my constituents in north Wales heading to Community First, who works with constituents of mine Manchester airport to take the next flight to New York in Chippenham. Through the Wiltshire Money Line, on the off chance that they can get cheaper credit there. she works closely with the county’s four credit unions The movement for action is growing globally, including and its housing associations to deliver responsible and in this country. It is tremendous that we are seeing reasonable lending to local people. That is an excellent widespread, cross-party support, and support throughout example of efforts to expand access to affordable credit, business and civic society. I commend the motion and which we are calling for in both the motion and the hope it wins support. I also hope the Government put amendment. Last year, they saved £250,000 in interest behind them whatever qualms they may have had, because payments alone, and I commend them for their work. this matters in our constituencies, whatever parties we In her work, Glenis sees first hand the appalling toll represent, and whatever part of the country we come taken on some vulnerable people, who are targeted by from. The motion will make a difference to the poorest doorstep lenders. She reports cases in which vulnerable members of our society. It is right and moral, and we adults become too scared to open their own front doors should take action. for fear that they will be confronted again by agents demanding repayment. She put to me this perfectly Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Thank you for straightforward question: what protection is there for your brevity. vulnerable people who are targeted by legal but unscrupulous lenders? I hope the Minister answers that 1.25 pm for her today. Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): I should first A range of caps on the total cost of loans would go declare an interest as a member of the West Wilts credit some way to addressing that very point. I am aware that union. the Government have some anxieties about prejudging the outcome of their consultation, but I would not want I congratulate the hon. Member for Walthamstow those anxieties to prevent the House from taking a (Stella Creasy), who has done so much to raise the positive view towards the proposed cost-of-credit caps. profile of this issue in the matter of months since we I therefore intend to support the amendment tabled by have been in the House, and all Back Benchers who my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr Walker). helped to secure this timely and important debate. I also acknowledge that my hon. Friend the Minister has an admirable track record on financial inclusion that is far 1.29 pm longer than mine. Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): I too congratulate my I understand that the Government seek to make hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) policy on the basis of strong evidence and wide consultation, on bringing this important issue to the Floor of the and that my hon. Friend must properly consider all the House. I welcome the opportunity to participate in this submissions that his Department receives. However, I debate today. There can be no doubt that there is a real have long been clear in my mind as to the moral need to tackle the uncompetitive nature of this market imperative for action, as well as to the practical case for and protect individuals and families from excessive certain caps on the total cost of borrowing. interest rates and charges by increasing access to affordable Back at the hustings meeting at which I was first credit. The Consumer Credit (Regulation and Advice) selected as the Liberal Democrat candidate for Bill will provide an opportunity to make progress on Chippenham, I was asked this popular and well worn these matters. question: “If you could make any new law, what would Like many other areas of the UK, my constituency of it be?” I said that I would cap the cost of consumer Wansbeck is suffering greatly from the effects of the lending. I am not generally inclined—[Interruption.] worldwide global recession. Since the start of the recession, Opposition Members who are looking to establish some mainstream lenders such as high street banks have been 1073 Consumer Credit and Debt 3 FEBRUARY 2011 Consumer Credit and Debt 1074 Management Management much less willing to lend money. It is estimated that 1.34 pm approximately 5 million to 7 million people in Britain Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con): I thank the are denied credit either because they do not have a bank Backbench Business Committee for agreeing to the account or because they have no credit history. This request from the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella leaves more and more people in Wansbeck and beyond Creasy) and me for this debate. There is true cross-party with only the option of unsecured lending such as support for this—more than 40 Members from different payday, doorstep and hire purchase lenders. It is estimated political parties supported us—and we were delighted that more than 1.2 million people use the payday lending to secure this three-hour debate. I am pleased that so market—a staggering fourfold increase since the start of many want to speak, which shows a real desire to make the recession—and more than 3 million use the home a difference on this crucial issue. credit market. Furthermore, rising unemployment, housing costs and VAT could leave numerous families struggling Many hon. Members will set out compelling reasons to make ends meet, which would add to the problems for the importance of this issue from their individual they face. casework. Organisations such as the citizens advice bureaux say that 60% of their work is dealing with However, it is still relatively easy for anyone to run up financial difficulties. It is surely better to tackle the substantial debts, and tragically people end up with problem at the source, but all too often consumers are debts they cannot deal with or service. It was recently simply not equipped to make informed decisions. It is reported that the people of the United Kingdom are the high-cost lenders who take advantage. well over £1 trillion in personal debt, and personal insolvency in the UK has reached record levels. Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): My hon. Friend and I organised a debt awareness day in Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): Will my Swindon, where we found an alarming lack of knowledge, hon. Friend give way? including people thinking that the APR was the be-all and end-all and not realising that the total package Ian Lavery: I would prefer not to, as I have only five could be dramatically more expensive. The motion addresses minutes. that problem. As always, the most vulnerable members of society are hit the hardest, and people on low incomes or in Justin Tomlinson: My hon. Friend is spot on, and all receipt of benefits are left to the mercy of non-mainstream too often we find that consumers are simply not equipped loans— payday, home credit or pawnbroking. Currently, to make informed decisions. six lenders account for 90% of the home credit market It is suggested that total cost caps are the solution, and there is little competition to drive interest rates and I support the principle. Surely there is an unequivocal down. The lack of competition keeps rates artificially case for saying that for borrowing X amount, there high, with the most vulnerable having to pay the price— should be an absolute limit on the sum to be paid back. literally. The APR for payday lenders often begins at We should protect consumers from the very worst. 600% and can escalate to 2,500% or more. Home credit lenders, who make home visits in order to collect repayments The motion is 99% there, but the amendment expresses for their short-term loans, can charge £82 in interest a slight hesitation. There is still a nervousness, because and collection charges for every £100 lent. whatever we do will have consequences. When organisations such as Consumer Focus and MoneySavingExpert, which It is not surprising that families turn to illegal loan is run by Martin Lewis, say that we must be mindful of sharks for help to tackle their immediate financial problems. possible consequences, it is right and proper that we At this stage it is worth remembering that the coalition should take a measured and detailed look at the issue to Government’s solution to the heinous problems with ensure that the consequences are thought out. The loan sharks in the north-east was to scrap the north-east evidence is inconclusive— illegal money lending team. In addition, the coalition shows no appetite to clamp down on excessive interest rates and loan costs—it is clearly out of touch with Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): I take the hon. ordinary people and their problems. Gentleman’s point about the consequences, but the evidence from Members on both sides of the House In Wansbeck, the local citizens advice bureau is doing suggests the problem is with the difference between its best to provide good quality debt advice services, but voluntary and mandatory regulation. Unless enforced, the withdrawal of finance and the reduction in staff the regulation just will not happen. numbers are causing real problems. There are some 900 clients in Wansbeck alone, dealing with £10 million of Justin Tomlinson: That is why I support the principle, debt. The casework is increasing as the manpower reduces. but—as the hon. Member for Walthamstow said—it is If we are to help and protect my constituents and essential that we make things better, not worse. We others like them we need to make progress on two should not rush in if we have not considered all the fronts. We have to tackle both illegal and legal loan consequences. However, we need to act urgently and, sharking. At the same time, we need to increase access crucially, with a desire to find a workable form of total to other, more affordable forms of credit. We need to cost caps. For those people who say that additional improve access to credit unions in Britain, but credit regulation would push people into the hands of the unions in Wansbeck have had their funding reduced. I illegal loan sharks or that extra action will damage our remind the Deputy Prime Minister and his fellow Ministers case for protecting vulnerable consumers, I point out that they signed an early-day motion in 2005 that called that we have just seen significant changes to the credit for action on interest rates charged by doorstep lenders, card industry that have not affected people’s access to but they have taken no action now that they are in credit cards. We should not fear that the market would government and in a position to do so. collapse. 1075 Consumer Credit and Debt 3 FEBRUARY 2011 Consumer Credit and Debt 1076 Management Management [Justin Tomlinson] an insatiable appetite to buy now and pay later. Over the long term we need to change that, because where I urge the Minister to look into the sales techniques possible people need to have a savings buffer for changes of doorstep lending. They include nudge-nudge techniques in circumstances. So I urge the Minister to consider all that encourage people to take on expensive, long-term the different options proposed. We have cross-party debt. Such lenders concentrate on having relationship support for the principle. I am sorry that there is an managers who go into the homes of the consumers. amendment to the motion, because it will take up time They argue that that helps them to assess whether the in the Division Lobbies, but we are 99.9% there. The consumer can afford to borrow more money. The question is how we do this. However, we need to consider relationship manager has a cup of tea and a chat. They all the consequences, and I have every faith that we will might ask, “Christmas is coming up, have you made be able to make a difference for the people who need plans for that?” The consumer says that her children our help the most. want the latest expensive toy, and the representative offers to lend some money—at a high cost. The consumer 1.42 pm is nudged into a long-term cycle of debt, and that is one of the most important areas to consider. Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) My flagship issue is financial education, which is (PC): I rise to speak in favour of the motion. As a included in the motion. I launched the all-party former policy officer for Citizens Advice Cymru—before parliamentary group on financial education for young my election to this place—I was able to see how the people on Monday, with my hon. Friend the Member nature of the advice issues dealt with by the citizens for Chippenham (Duncan Hames) and the hon. Member advice bureaux in our communities changed dramatically for Walthamstow as vice chairs. Some 171 MPs have signed during the second half of the previous decade. Although up and it is supported by the Personal Finance Education welfare benefit issues had previously been the staple Group and Martin Lewis of MoneySavingExpert. I am diet of bureaux, personal debt cases rapidly became the grateful for that support, as it is unbelievably important largest single issue dealt with by advisers, totalling well that we have savvy consumers who understand that they over a third of all client issues. Citizens Advice client can shop around and are equipped to make informed figures offer a detailed insight into the social problems decisions. faced by communities across the UK, and the latest quarterly figures for Wales are sobering. Total client There is an incredibly strong case for making the inquiries over the year totalled nearly 390,000—a year- costs more transparent, and it is another reason why on-year increase of 19%, of which debt-related cases total cost caps are so important. All too often, people totalled more than 134,000, which was an incredible judge a debt on the APR. There are many issues with 37% of all cases and an increase of 14% on the previous high APRs, but there are extra charges as well, which is year. why the crude cap on interest rates alone was previously rejected. There should be a cap on everything. That There is always a lag between the true human cost of would also allow consumers to make good comparisons. any recession and a return to economic growth, and I know that some hon. Members will criticise things will certainly get much worse before they get organisations such as Wonga.com, but I have to give it better. The current fiscal policy of the UK Government some credit, because of all the organisations that have will, I am afraid, only exacerbate matters. The economic lobbied me, it is the only one that has said, “We will record of the previous UK Government has rightly work with whatever changes are put in place.” That been criticised for the manner in which the public should mean clear, understandable and transparent costs—I finances were allowed to run out of control, but the would support that. However, we cannot just look at manner in which consumer debt was allowed to rocket APR. Part of Martin Lewis’s financial training for me has received little attention. Consumer debt in the UK was the following good example: if someone takes out lies at around £1.4 trillion—a sum equivalent to 100% £3,000 on a credit card at the age of 19 on a typical of the UK’s total annual economic output. To put this APR of 17.9% and makes only the minimum payments, in context, in 1997 combined personal debt stood at they will not clear that debt until they are 60 years old. about £500 billion. It is an incredible figure that will be Although the 17.9% does not look too bad, there are a significant economic headwind for the future. long-term implications, which again supports the principle There is a great social crisis facing communities across of total cost capping, showing all the costs, including the UK, and the UK Government cannot stand idly by. what it will really cost over the lifetime of the debt. We need a comprehensive solution involving regulation I fully support any measures to give greater access to of the high-interest lending market. However, central credit unions. Being conscious of the time, I will simply and devolved Governments also need to work together bow to my hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire to put in place a package of support and educational (Damian Hinds) for championing this subject in Parliament. services to deal with acute debt problems as well ensuring I urge the Minister to take that on board, as well as the that financial capability is increased among the wider need to make available greater access to social funds, in community. We welcome the decision of the UK particular by allowing greater flexibility in emergencies. Government to regulate the excessive interest rates of All too often, the need to acquire debt is a result either credit and store cards, but there are no plans to intervene of consumers wanting something now rather than later in the high-interest lending market involving payday or of sudden changes in circumstances. We need to be in loans, pawnbrokers, doorstep lenders, mail-order cheque- a position to help out those in the latter situation. cashing agencies and high street alternatives such as Finally, I want to address the principle of the savings Oakam. culture in this country.The hon. Member for Walthamstow My predecessor, Adam Price, introduced a ten-minute talked about how we have the lowest savings rates and rule Bill—the Interest Rates (Limits on Charges) Bill—that the highest levels of debt. That is this nation—we have would have introduced a capping structure with the aim 1077 Consumer Credit and Debt 3 FEBRUARY 2011 Consumer Credit and Debt 1078 Management Management of achieving the ambitions of the motion we are debating shortages. They are everywhere, whether it be the array today. People who rely on these sorts of products are of “where there’s blame there’s a claim” law firms often extremely vulnerable and on low incomes, and offering redress by way of riches, which is something face interest charges of up to 2,500%. It is exploitation about which I have a strong view—but that might be for at its worst, and the lax regime that currently exists in another day—cash-for-gold schemes or guided bankruptcy the UK is indefensible. These sorts of business models proceedings to escape debts that are already out of were pioneered in the US, but in the land of the free control. However, the most prevalent are the offers of there has been a backlash: 15 states have prohibited loans. Pictures of happy smiling families delighted by payday lending, and 35 states have introduced interest the consolidation of their debts under increasing finance caps. Furthermore, in Europe, as we have heard, 14 countries are rife. Loan companies with their own television have some sort of capping structure. channels promise untold happiness if a person calls I would like to touch briefly on the issue of debt them to borrow more and more money. Indeed, some management plans, and the need for the sector to be adverts only just stop short of saying, “You can now subject to robust statutory regulation, including—at the borrow enough money to get completely out of debt.” very least—a cap on fees for the debt advice they offer, The latest method of debt marketing is the provision and subject to an independent audit funded by themselves. of payday loans, lending money at over 1,000%, and companies offering this type of loan are flourishing—they Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): Why is the hon. Gentleman’s are everywhere. As the motion states, £7.5 billion was party attacking Communities First, which has done lent to low and middle income earners in 2008 alone. It some very good work on providing debt advice? Why is is easy-to-obtain credit, but is frighteningly expensive to it suggesting that it should no longer receive funding service the debt. These company names are becoming as from the Welsh Assembly Government? familiar as the old banks and building societies, as they appear not just on televisions but on premier league Jonathan Edwards: I am afraid that I have no idea football shirts, advertising hoardings up and down the what the hon. Lady is talking about—perhaps we can country and in various newspapers. I am sure that we discuss it another time. have all received many emails offering us loans. One of the growth industries of the recession involved I trust, Mr Deputy Speaker, that you will be unlikely advice sharks, who exploit the human misery caused by to need a payday loan, but if you did and you did a the downturn. On a fee basis, individuals and families Google search for UK payday loans, your search would find themselves signing up for expensive debt management yield some 9.8 million hits. If you wished to spare schemes, which only increase their problems. It is estimated yourself the inconvenience of a credit check, you would that in 2010 companies would have amassed fees in still have almost 2 million hits from which to choose. excess of £250 million, often on an up-front basis and “Neither a borrower nor a lender be” was, in days with consumers encouraged to take out further credit to gone by, an idealist maxim, but most of us incur debt in pay for these fees. These matters are being considered as some form or another over our lives. At this point, I will part of the consumer credit and insolvency review. resist chiding Labour over its policies on national debt. However, we need urgent action now to protect consumers, The ability to repay should be the first consideration for and I would urge Ministers to act with haste. anyone entering into any credit agreement. For the man To close, I would like to congratulate the Welsh in the street, however, that is becoming harder and Government on some of their exciting initiatives. The harder to do as the lending methods become ever more creation of the Welsh financial education unit is a step varied and complicated. Working out exactly how much towards ensuring that future generations are more has to be paid back on any loan is becoming more and financially literate. The all-Wales lending unit is at the more difficult, as is being able to compare it to other forefront of the fight against illegal lending in my offers. country, and an all-Wales coverage of credit unions to provide alternative affordable lending is much to be Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab): I agree welcomed. However, I would urge more ambition in my with an awful lot of what the hon. Gentleman is saying, own country—by rolling out interest-free JAK-banking-like but I wonder whether he shares my concern at the products in our credit unions, and through the creation Government’s scrapping of the financial inclusion fund. of a national money advice service made up of existing Around 50% of the advice that my citizens advice providers and based on the excellent money advice and bureau gives is on debt management, and it tells me that budgeting service in the Republic of Ireland. that will stop as a direct result of the Government’s policy. 1.47 pm Andrew Bingham: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con): I support intervention, but I think that we are trying to get some wholeheartedly the principle of this debate. As the cross-party agreement here. Can we try to deal with the world changes, so does the way we do many things—and issue of debt and work together on this instead of none more so than the way we can borrow money. In indulging in political arguments? days gone by, there were usually only two ways of I would like to talk about financial education in borrowing money—through a bank or, for a mortgage, schools, which my hon. Friend the Member for North a building society. Things are very different nowadays. Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) has also mentioned. A Anyone who has spent time watching daytime good education teaches children about the past and television—I had the misfortune to do so when I was ill prepares them for their future. In a world where debt several years ago—will be struck by the number of has become vital to so many important milestones in adverts offering quick and easy solutions to money life, it is right that we should help our children to 1079 Consumer Credit and Debt 3 FEBRUARY 2011 Consumer Credit and Debt 1080 Management Management [Andrew Bingham] “Most US states and European countries have a legal limit to stop lenders charging whatever they want.” understand how to budget and how to negotiate their That point has also been very well made by my hon. way around credit agreements. I was at the launch event Friend. Does she agree that the danger of the amendment for the all-party parliamentary group on financial education is that it would reduce the chances of such legal protection for young people, and I would like to pay tribute to for those most in need of help? those who set it up. A huge number of MPs were present. Teaching financial matters in schools could be Mrs Chapman: My objection to the amendment is the saviour of many people in years to come, but it will that this is a Back-Bench debate, and it should be an not help adults today. At the launch of the all-party opportunity for Back Benchers to express their views. group, Martin Lewis of moneysavingexpert.com spoke The New Economics Foundation published a report with eloquence and passion about his concern at the in 2008 that included evidence that restricting payday mountain of debt that people are accumulating, unaware loans did not push people into illegal borrowing. Rather, of the consequences of their actions and with little or the market for affordable loans actually strengthened in no comprehension of their total debt liability. Mr Lewis’s such circumstances. In America, small mainstream loans concerns are supported by a constituent of mine in the for less than $600 became more widely available following High Peak, who wrote to me about a loan that he took a clampdown on payday lending, as aggressive marketing out eight years ago. After eight years of making all by payday lenders disappeared. payments in full without a single default, he has still not paid back a penny of the principal sum. Indeed, to We have heard it argued that caps on credit in France discharge the loan after eight years, he still had to pay and Germany have led to reduced access to credit for more than 100% of the original amount that he borrowed. the least well off, but that argument rests on evidence from a narrow base of research. In fact, restrictions on I am not an advocate of legislating at every opportunity. access to all kinds of credit vary between Britain and I believe that, through education, we can help people to other European countries. It is argued that borrowers make informed choices. I support the amendment urging know what they are doing and should jolly well live with regulators to consider putting in place certain regulatory the consequences, but the individuals getting into trouble powers, which would give them the chance to act. with these loans are desperate. They are not in a position However, we too might eventually have to consider to shop around. Their problems, as well as their credit, taking action against those lenders who operate in a are compounded until they are no longer able to cope. way that is unfair and exploitative, and who offer seductive products in a way that does not explain their consequences Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con): The hon. for those who sign up to them. A requirement to publish Lady is making an interesting case. Does she agree that a total lending cost figure for each loan, which could borrowers often do not know what they are doing, and be used as a yardstick by which a lender’s offer can be that it is our job, as elected Members, to protect not the judged, is in my view a sensible step. In that way, moneylenders but our constituents? Does she also agree the high-cost credit lenders would flounder because the that the motion, for which I have a lot of admiration, market would send them down, and the sensible, sustainable and the amendment suffer from one problem—namely, methods of credit and the people who offer them would the assumption that the regulator will be able to solve survive, for the good of all. the problem? Does not the evidence from a whole variety of regulators, including Ofcom, Ofgem, Ofwat 1.53 pm and the Charities Commission, suggest that regulators are far too often wet and useless? Would it not be much Mrs Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab): The United better to put these powers—which should be draconian, Kingdom is lagging behind on the regulation of consumer but exercised with the judgment of Solomon—in the credit. The UK’s poorest borrowers pay the highest hands of a feisty Back Bencher? May I suggest the hon. price for credit in Europe. Fifteen American states have Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) for the role? now dealt with payday loans, and the cost of credit is also capped for all US servicemen and women. Even President Bush could see that his soldiers needed protecting Mrs Chapman: The only kind of regulation that is from excessive interest and administrative charges. In really going to get to the nub of the problem is the one the United States, the Centre for Responsible Lending that caps the cost. estimates that credit regulation saved consumers $2 billion To argue that high-cost loans are necessary simply in 2009. We know that payday loans frequently leave cements the market dominance of high-cost lenders borrowers unable to pay other debts. and, worse, cements endemic poverty. The industry is Much is made by the industry of the possible unintended seeking asylum in the under-regulated UK market, consequences of regulating payday loans, but research having been forced out of certain American states and such as that from the university of North Carolina parts of Europe. Other countries are getting a grip on shows that restrictions on payday loans had no significant the problem. The debt industry is resisting regulation, impact on the availability of credit for households in claiming that it has the best interests of its customers at North Carolina. In fact, more than twice as many heart. I am afraid that that simply will not wash. former payday borrowers reported that the absence of The motion before the House does not propose to payday lending had had a positive rather than negative outlaw short-term lending or impose a cap on APRs. It effect on their household. The state’s regulation helped simply asks the Government to agree to curb the worst more households than it harmed. excesses of the credit and debt industry. The Office of Fair Trading recognises that there are problems with Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): My constituent, this market, and it is beginning to regulate more closely. Mark Billard, wrote to me recently. He said: But the regulation that counts, the one that will actually 1081 Consumer Credit and Debt 3 FEBRUARY 2011 Consumer Credit and Debt 1082 Management Management make a difference, is the one that cuts the cost. There research that underpins her motion today and her speech. are many problems with this market, but the biggest I support her campaign for better financial education, problem for consumers is the spiralling cost of the and I was delighted to become a founder member of the loans. Loans are rolled over and charges are added until all-party parliamentary group on financial education they become not an occasional crutch but the only for young people, along with her and many other Members, means of getting by. Consumers become trapped in a when it was launched by my hon. Friend the Member cycle of debt. How different this reality is from the fun, for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson), who has seconded free-and-easy way in which high-cost lenders and debt this amendment. management companies market their products. We are debating a motion that I personally would be My hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Stella prepared to support in its entirety, but which, through a Creasy) has explained carefully that the motion attempts small change, I hope will win even greater support from to bring about a cap not on the APR but rather on the both sides of the Chamber. The purpose of the amendment total cost of credit. The motion does not prescribe a is to set forth clearly the opinion of this whole House—and particular cap or propose anything that might cause in particular of Back Benchers from every party—on credit to be unavailable to those who need it. The such an important matter and to support the call for motion has been carefully crafted to bring about a limit action on the cost of credit and the means by which the on the overall costs. It does not propose a requirement hon. Lady has called for action with a range of caps, for a new regulatory body and it will not close down but also to clarify that the answer is not necessarily new short-term lending. regulatory powers. I move this amendment as a result of The motion does not condemn debt. Debt is a necessary concerns raised with me both by constituents and by part of modern life. It enables us to get married, to go fellow Back Benchers that one aspect of the motion to university and to buy a house or a car. It gets many could see it defeated were it left unchanged. I think this people through life’s emergencies, such as a broken is too important a matter to allow that to happen. washing machine or unexpected travel, but it is not The amendment protects the wording that calls on right that those least able to afford high charges, those the Government to increase access to affordable credit. who are in desperate situations and unlikely to shop It is absolutely right that the Government should act in around, should have to pay the most. this area; that is a point from which I think few would We know that people are deliberately targeted by demur. I have had some involvement in two significant high-cost lenders in their marketing and are enticed into initiatives that the Government are already taking on taking loans they cannot afford. These are the people this front. They are initiatives that benefit many people for whom the normalisation of high-cost lending has in my constituency of Worcester. I have spoken in this the cruellest consequences. Time is up for the worst of House before about the importance of the move to these expensive loans. It is up to this House to tell the bring credit unions into the post office network, and I Government it wants to change the rules. know that the Black Pear credit union in Worcester is Finally, I would like to pay tribute to the sterling anxious that this measure be brought forward as soon work of my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow as possible. Like the hon. Lady, I have campaigned on (Stella Creasy) on this issue. She has demonstrated how my high street, in my case leafleting for this credit the at times confusing procedures of this House can be union. I am glad to be able to say that Labour councillors effectively used to bring forward an important issue in Worcester do the same. I would like to take this and, if good sense prevails, to make a difference. Her opportunity to remind the Government of the urgency tenacity goes to prove that it is always a mistake to of the need for progress on this matter and of the confuse gentleness with weakness. revitalising effect that this step could have for both our credit unions and our post offices. Our concern for this issue is not borne of soft naivety, but from seeing first hand the effects on the lives of our The second organisation that I wish to mention in constituents of these exploitative charges for borrowing. this context is My Home Finance, whose shop in Worcester I commend this motion to the House. I was delighted to open just before Christmas. It is supported by local housing associations including Sanctuary Housing, Nexus Housing and Worcester Community 2pm Housing, and it is backed by the Department for Work Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con): I beg to move and Pensions and the Royal Bank of Scotland. This amendment (a), to leave out great new initiative provides loans directly to people’s bank accounts at an APR of 29.9%, compared with “alongside measures to increase access to affordable credit, regulatory powers that put” typical doorstep loans of 272% or loan shark rates with APRs in the thousands. Moves such as these that are and insert already under way reflect the priority which the Government “measures to increase access to affordable credit; urges regulators are already giving to increasing access to affordable to consider putting”. credit, but I have no reservations in calling on the The amendment stands in the name of more than 20 Government to do still more. other Back Benchers, and I am grateful to the many What I and many other Back Benchers on the distinguished Back Benchers from different parties for Government Benches feel uncomfortable supporting is their support and to the Backbench Business Committee the call to create new regulatory powers at this moment for the opportunity to speak in this debate. in time. We will hear many arguments in this debate I move this amendment in support of the excellent about the effect of capping rates. Some will argue, as I motion of the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella do, that some form of flexible capping is not only Creasy), and I congratulate her on the passionate campaign attractive but morally right, while others will warn of she has led to secure this debate and on the meticulous the perils of driving people out of the regulated market 1083 Consumer Credit and Debt 3 FEBRUARY 2011 Consumer Credit and Debt 1084 Management Management [Mr Robin Walker] and the interest rates charged urged me to vote for today’s motion. She will see no benefit from urging the altogether and into the hands of loan sharks. The hon. regulator to consider introducing caps. She will see Member for Walthamstow has suggested an elegant benefit only from those caps being introduced. solution in her form of words in the motion, taking account of the need to balance access with price and Mr Walker: I am afraid I disagree. The caps have to providing a degree of flexibility, but even this formulation be introduced in the right way. The best way for the requires the Government to introduce new regulatory Government to take action on this is to drive forward powers. access to credit, improve financial education and encourage Many of my colleagues on the Government Benches a genuinely competitive market in affordable credit. I are allergic to increasing regulation, and all of us would support the suggestion that a range of caps should be like to see better, rather than more, regulation accepted given serious consideration but, in common with many as a general principle of government. I and many other other Back Benchers, oppose the creation of new regulatory Members fear that for the Government to create new powers at present. By accepting my amendment, the regulatory powers in this area at this moment could be a House can send a clear message of intent without mistake. To regulate without a very careful analysis of sacrificing this worthy motion to complex arguments the market would carry great risks and, as so often and ideological disputes on regulation. I believe that the happened in the past, such regulation could have unintended amended motion would represent a clear expression of consequences. Back-Bench opinion from across the whole House, and I therefore commend it to the House. Mr Chuka Umunna (Streatham) (Lab): I noted the wording in the hon. Gentleman’s amendment. If we are 2.7 pm to introduce further regulation, is now not the time to Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): I congratulate do it, given the Government’s current big reforms of my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Stella financial services in general in this country, some of Creasy) on securing the debate. I agreed almost entirely which I support? I accept that regulation is not necessarily with the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for always the answer, but one of the problems with the Darlington (Mrs Chapman) apart from the use of the financial services sector is that it can be very short-termist descriptive term “gentleness”. I think the emotions and has to take account primarily of maximising of passion and commitment were more apparent in shareholder value through dividends and increasing the contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for share prices. To my mind that is precisely why, in this Walthamstow. case, we need to have regulation. Perhaps the hon. This is a timely debate, because we are still experiencing Gentleman can enlighten us about why he thinks the the effects of the worst global financial crisis in over sector can in this respect voluntarily bring itself to heel. 70 years, which plunged the global economy into its deepest recession. As a result, the finances of households Mr Walker: I am very grateful for that intervention as throughout our country, especially those on low incomes, it gives me time to make the next part of my speech, are balanced on a knife edge. Four out of 10 people in which is on that very subject. I am certainly not calling the UK are worried about their current level of debt, for self-regulation in this area. I am calling for the and with household debt set to increase according to regulators to look at this. the Government’s own Office for Budget Responsibility, It is important to note that the Government have we need to do all we can to make sure that they do not announced plans to create a new consumer protection go over the edge due to irresponsible and unfair lending. and markets agency, whose focus will be squarely on I am a supporter of both the Consumer Credit protecting individuals and consumers. That will be a (Regulation and Advice) Bill and today’s motion, because refreshing change from the vast and fragmented scope they seek better regulation of unfair lending practices in of the Financial Services Agency. Such an agency would the marketplace, where disproportionately high interest be ideally placed to consider this matter and to work rates or charges, and sometimes a combination of both, closely with consumers and the industry to find the best can be levied. Such a move would bring a welcome stop way to deliver a range of caps on prices, balancing the to short-term lenders charging wholly excessive APR needs of access to credit with those of price. Without rates, which people are often so shocked to read about. that regulator in place, I believe it would be a mistake to The highest I have found was on an infamous website create new regulatory powers subjecting such an important only a couple of days ago that was providing a very matter to the change and disruption inevitably entailed modest APR of 4,200%. People often say that it is in a handover of responsibilities: far better that we unfair and misleading to quote annualised rates for clearly indicate the will of this House that regulators short-term credit, but even if we break it down to a must consider these matters and take them seriously. weekly or monthly rate, they are by no means cheap. We I return to the fact that I support this motion. Like also have to question what happens when a person many other Back Benchers of all parties, I want to see experiencing financial hardship finds him or herself in action taken to cap the cost of credit. I am deeply an even more difficult situation and cannot make the concerned about the levels of interest charged for payday agreed repayment date. lending and want to do everything I can to protect my No one is arguing for credit to be withheld from constituents from loan sharks. people who need it; what we are calling for is responsible lending, coupled with protection for vulnerable consumers, Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab): The constituent and an open and fair market. It is important not to who came to see me at my surgery last week because she single out short-term credit when dealing with unfair could not sleep at night because of the payday loans practices, but to deal with the market as a whole. That is 1085 Consumer Credit and Debt 3 FEBRUARY 2011 Consumer Credit and Debt 1086 Management Management another reason why I support the motion, as it encompasses absolutely in favour of some form of regulation. There all forms of lending and would include, for example, is no question about that. However, the problem is that credit cards and store cards, the regulation of which the calling on the Government to adopt caps now would Government have already committed to. Quite significantly, pre-judge the outcome of the consultation, and I should what we are calling for would bring the situation in our know, because I withdrew my private Member’s Bill on country in line with what is increasingly becoming the unfair charging for unauthorised overdrafts, as, although position in other countries around the world, for example the Government were minded perhaps to support it, those in Europe and the United States, and even in continuing with it would have prejudiced the outcomes. some parts of India. Therefore, although caps would ostensibly seem to be a I am also extremely pleased to see that the motion reasonable way to stop excessive charging, we should addresses the important issues of financial literacy and examine them in the light of the evidence brought financial exclusion, which are the other half of the forward by the charities that support vulnerable people. problem. In a recent Westminster Hall on bank account I have spoken to debt advice agencies and charities provision in Scotland, I illustrated the problems that that do not think that caps will work. Some warn that financial literacy and financial exclusion can create. In a the imposition of caps would remove many lenders former life I was a dental practitioner—I am a glutton from the market and drive people who are desperate for for punishment; what can I say? Our practice employed cash into the arms of illegal loan sharks. The chairman a new dental nurse who had no credit history at all. She of the Consumer Credit Counselling Service has said: did not have a driving licence, she was straight out of “Interest…caps can harm people seeking this type of credit school and she had sadly lost her birth certificate, as her more than they help them.” parents had had a messy separation. She was not able to open a simple bank account. Instead, every week she Another organisation, the Centre for Responsible Credit— had to take her cheques to one of the local pawn shops one that I had not heard of before—has written to me and pay £3.50 just to get her weekly salary. That is a to say that it disagrees, bringing to light a new European simple story, but the same situation affects a great study. All those points must be looked at objectively. We number of people across the UK, and when they find have to think with our heads, not our hearts. themselves in need of credit, they often turn to short-term lenders. According to research, 5 million to 7 million David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): My hon. Friend people are denied credit either because they do not have makes some important points, and I completely understand a bank account or because they have no credit history. the strength of opinion and the aim of trying to ensure I admire credit unions, and I am a great believer in that we have affordable credit. However, when I questioned their work. Indeed, Glasgow has more credit unions Martin Lewis during his appearance before the Select and members than any other city in the United Kingdom, Committee on Treasury, he said: with 34 credit unions in total and more than 120,000 “The main thing we could do to improve your regulations—to members, and financial asset portfolios of more than stop mis-selling, to have better informed consumers, to have more £170 million. Credit unions are grass-roots organisations responsible borrowing, to penalise irresponsible lenders—would that are truly community-led. However, what I admire be to teach every child in school how finances work.” most about them is that they actively work to improve We need to get the balance right in this debate when it the financial literacy of their members and tackle financial comes to education, not just about credit, but about the exclusion. It is in that context that they have an invaluable importance of savings. Does she agree with those role to play in our country, because not only can they sentiments? offer accessible financial services, but they could provide some of the financial education and debt management advice that so many need. I hope that the Government Lorely Burt: Yes, I totally agree with my hon. Friend. will look to invest more to expand the work of credit Many Opposition Members who have spoken in this unions in the coming months. debate are new, so I wonder whether I could gently The Consumer Credit (Regulation and Advice) Bill remind them that the previous Government launched and the motion before us represent an excellent opportunity three inquiries into the problem, all of which cautioned to show that, during these tough economic times, we against using caps. will look not only to protect the most vulnerable, but to bring about a cultural change in this country in our Rachel Reeves: My hon. Friend the Member for approach to savings and debt. I sincerely hope that hon. Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) has explicitly set out in Members in all parts of the House give the motion and her motion that we should have a cap not on interest my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow the rates, but on the overall cost of credit, so what the hon. support that they deserve. Lady is talking about is not in the motion. Does she recognise that? 2.12 pm Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): Let me begin by Lorely Burt: I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention, congratulating the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella but no, I do not entirely recognise that, because I am Creasy) and the excellent way in which she has promoted not sure that she is distinguishing between what the two her cause today. Everyone here wants to see a fair and actually mean. I am not against what the hon. Member accessible system of credit provision. No one in the for Walthamstow is promoting, but I question her position. Chamber today wants to see loan sharks or other After 13 years—13 years in which her Government gave unscrupulous lenders continue. the matter due consideration and in which her party The coalition Government have begun a consultation had an unquestionable desire to help—she seeks to on the best ways of achieving that. Personally, I am introduce something now, in the middle of a Government 1087 Consumer Credit and Debt 3 FEBRUARY 2011 Consumer Credit and Debt 1088 Management Management [Lorely Burt] Let me begin by putting the record straight. The hon. Member for Solihull (Lorely Burt) said that my hon. consultation, when she knows that the Government Friend the Member for Walthamstow was not interested cannot commit themselves in case they prejudice the in consultation. In fact, she took part in this consultation. consultation. Incomes in my constituency are, on average, lower Stella Creasy: Will the hon. Lady give way? than those in other parts of London. Unemployment is higher, and the dole queue is lengthening. My constituents Lorely Burt: I will, but the hon. Lady should please are only too well aware of the exploitative practices of be brief. the payday and door-to-door credit lenders, for they are the target audience of firms hoping to cash in on other people’s misery. I believe that now is exactly the right Stella Creasy: I just want to check that the hon. Lady time to propose a cap on the cost of credit. The recession understands that this is a Backbench Business Committee means that mainstream banks are not lending, everyday debate, so in theory Back Benchers could take a position costs are rising, wages are being pushed down, and the that is different from that of the Government. If the ranks of the unemployed are growing. Increasingly, Government were concerned about the consultation, payday and home credit lenders are becoming the only they could abstain from the vote, thereby protecting option for people who are struggling to make ends themselves against any question of judicial review, whereas meet, but that option comes at a terrible price—a price Back Benchers are free to express an opinion. Does she that people may be paying year after year after year. not agree? The speech of the hon. Member for North Swindon Lorely Burt: Back in the real world, we do not want (Justin Tomlinson) reminded me of an experience that to abstain. We—the Government—want to support her is not part of my casework, but an actual case of mine. I proposition, so I am disappointed that she is taking the recall that, when I was 21, my three-year-old daughter view she has. and I spent our first Christmas in decent housing after We cannot accuse the Government of doing nothing. three years living in a slum dwelling with no bathroom. This week the consumer credit directive came into force, I wanted to buy a Christmas tree and some decorations, enforcing a 14-day cooling-off period. We have also which would have cost about £10. It might as well have increased the money going into catching, prosecuting been £100, because I did not have £10. and imprisoning loan sharks—these pariahs who feast I have to ask myself this: if a door-to-door lender had on the misery of the desperate. The illegal money-lending offered me a £10 loan, would I have taken it? I probably teams are doing a great job and have been very effective, would. Would that £10 have involved me in years of and we have also launched the consultation—the one loan payback? It probably would. Would that have that the hon. Lady does not seem to be interested in become a spiral of debt which would have meant that I acknowledging. would not be here now? Yes, it probably would. When people are living from week to week to the edge of every Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Will the hon. Lady pound and penny, their lives can be thrown into crisis give way? for the want of a new pair of shoes. It is such tipping points that can send their lives up or down. It is the Lorely Burt: I am sorry, but I cannot any more. ultimate game of snakes and ladders. I believe in giving I, too, am impatient to see help for vulnerable indebted people a ladder, and I think that the motion provides a people, but there are other things that we could be key rung to help people out of the despair that comes doing. When the Financial Services Authority and the with endless debt. Office of Fair Trading merge into one regulator, one option could be to give that newly-formed body the Oakam and Wonga.com have stores and billboards power to introduce caps if it felt them to be appropriate. across London offering payday loans, longer-term loans Another option that I should like my hon. Friend the and emergency loans to people with poor credit ratings. Minister to consider is the use of the post office network The rates on those loans are staggering. Many of the as a method of access for credit unions, especially as the companies that provide those loans hire only staff with Government have halted Labour’s closure programme. second languages so that they can cynically and specifically target immigrant communities. The amendment, which I tabled along with the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr Walker) and other Back It is the most vulnerable people who would be helped Benchers, retains all the good aspects of the motion by a cap on the cost of credit. One in 10 UK payday without committing the Government to any course customers has an annual income of less than £ll,000, before the end of the consultation. I urge Opposition and according to the UK’s largest debt charity, the Members to support the amendment, so that we as a Consumer Credit Counselling Service, one in eight of Parliament can work together to end this scourge, with the people who asked it for help in the first half of last our heads as well as our hearts. year was receiving jobseeker’s allowance. I believe it is our responsibility to legislate, on behalf of those who 2.19 pm sent us here, to protect people in such circumstances, and I hope that today we will see the political will that is Teresa Pearce (Erith and Thamesmead) (Lab): Thank necessary if we are to crack down on the companies you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for allowing me to contribute who exploit them. I support the Consumer Credit to this important debate. I also thank my hon. Friends (Regulation and Advice) Bill tabled by my hon. Friend the Members for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) and for the Member for Walthamstow, and I hope that it will be Darlington (Mrs Chapman) for tabling the motion. given its Second Reading in the House tomorrow. It 1089 Consumer Credit and Debt 3 FEBRUARY 2011 Consumer Credit and Debt 1090 Management Management seeks to improve access to more affordable versions of Mr Umunna: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that credit through, for instance, credit unions and the post the fact that a definition of the cap is not given would office network. allow the regulator some form of flexibility in the event I am pleased that the motion recognises the problems that it is required to take action? of financial exclusion and the lack of financial and debt management education in this country. Along with Damian Hinds: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman more than 200 other Members, I recently joined the for that intervention and for being my minute man. all-party parliamentary group on financial education That does create extra flexibility but we do need to for young people, which was mentioned earlier by the know what we are talking about. A number of hon. hon. Member for High Peak (Andrew Bingham). I hope Members have drawn a distinction between an interest that, through the work of that group, we can improve rate cap and a cap that includes interest and other financial education in schools, and I hope that all its charges—that is what the annual percentage rate is; members will support the motion. APR includes some other charges. It does not include behavioural charges, default charges and so on, and I While these measures may help, their impact will be do not understand mathematically—I am happy to take minimal unless a range of non-competitive caps on an intervention on this for a second minute—how they credit in the unsecured lending market are also introduced. could be factored into a general cap that would apply to I urge Ministers to listen carefully to the debate, to credit products extended to everybody, given that, by recognise that the high-cost credit market is exploitative definition, behavioural and default charges are incurred legal loan sharking, and to step in, do what Governments only by some customers. should do, and regulate accordingly by capping the cost of credit for the benefit of the most vulnerable people in Another problem with the motion is its emphasis on constituencies such as mine and many others. a lack of competitiveness, because that is not the problem in this area. I do not wish to be too pernickety, but I do not think that “many”lenders can be in a “near monopoly” 2.24 pm position, as the motion suggests. In many ways, stimulating competitiveness further might end up being counter- Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): If hon. Members productive, but in the three minutes available there is no will forgive the pun, may I say that it is encouraging that chance of our discussing that aspect. there are such high levels of interest in this Chamber in This country is both blessed and cursed with a very this subject, particularly among the new intake? I pay diverse and dynamic consumer credit market. We are tribute to the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella blessed because of the variety, where there is a product Creasy) and my hon. Friend the Member for North to suit just about every need in the market. Even payday Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) for their interest, which lending can be very rational; it could be very rational has been shown not only in this debate, but in the hon. for someone trying to avoid current account bounce Lady’s private Member’s Bill and the Westminster Hall charges to take out a payday loan instead. Very few debate, and in my hon. Friend’s institution of the all-party people are excluded from the legal and, therefore, regulatable group on financial education for young people. I commented market altogether. at the time that, as so many people were crammed into the room, he had managed to make financial education We are cursed by this market because of the ubiquity for young people the new rock and roll. of the messages about credit that people are bombarded with; the emphasis on what people want to borrow, Almost all of us in this Chamber, wherever we are in rather than what they need or can afford to pay back; the spectrum of belief in free market economics, conclude and the complexity involved. Even very highly educated that something else needs to be done to curb the worst people find it difficult to understand every product and excesses in the credit market. A number of us also have every aspect of every product. I am sure that some examined the other countries in the world, both those in Members of this House struggle, as I do, with understanding the European tradition, such as France, Germany and some aspects of some of these products. Italy, and those in the Anglo-Saxon tradition, such as That complexity highlights one of the great difficulties Australia, Canada and most of the states in America, with introducing new regulation, because companies and asked, “Can they all be wrong?” Perhaps instead make money in this market in lots of different ways. they are on to something in having some sort of usury Rent-to-own companies, such as BrightHouse, which ceiling and sensible credit limit. has been mentioned more than once in this debate, Any approach to this matter has to cover all the would almost certainly not be curtailed by any restriction aspects of education, advice and this country’s culture on the cost of credit, because so much of the money about debt, must include smart regulation that protects they make is on the sticker price, relative to Argos or the most vulnerable, and must provide for proper Currys, rather than on the charge for credit. alternatives, such as credit unions. They, in particular, I am running out of time already, so I had better have an important role to play, not only in providing hurry up. The experience in America suggests that affordable credit, but in encouraging the savings that a where there is effective regulation of cash lending, other number of hon. Members have discussed. sectors such as rent-to-own or good old-fashioned There are a couple of problems with the motion. catalogues are stimulated, and if there is a clamp down First, it refers to various “caps on prices” without on interest rate charges, that will stimulate growth in saying what that means. It is not clear whether that behavioural charges and so on. Everybody in this House would be a cash or a percentage cap. When lenders talk probably agrees that a blunt, general, across-the-board about the total cost of credit, they normally refer to a APR cap is not a good idea, so the challenge is whether cash figure, but I assume that the hon. Member for we can come up with a regime that curbs the worst Walthamstow was referring to a percentage. excesses of the market without putting entire segments 1091 Consumer Credit and Debt 3 FEBRUARY 2011 Consumer Credit and Debt 1092 Management Management [Damian Hinds] I have been encouraged by the extent of cross-party consensus today. Whatever our views on the national and entire product categories out of the market, and debt and the deficit, I hope that hon. Members from all that protects the most vulnerable. We need a regime that parties will agree that this issue is a massive problem. I does not push them into the arms of illegal loan sharks—the want to put on record some of the problems being sort of people for whom the idea of a late payment experienced by my constituents. I have the challenge, penalty is a cigarette burn to the forearm. but also the great honour, of representing the community of Royston, which sits near the heart of my constituency Justin Tomlinson: Does my hon. Friend agree that and is one of the most deprived areas in Scotland. that is exactly why we should be considering all of the There are very low rates of pupil attainment at school actions that need to be taken as part of the credit and very low rates of schoolchildren moving into college review, so that we can get a measured and sensible and university. When I contacted North Glasgow advice approach which means that we do not end up, by centre in Royston last week, it told me that debt issues default, aiding the illegal loan sharks? make up nearly half of all its work at the moment. Of the debt issues it manages, consumer debt, including Damian Hinds: I agree with my hon. Friend entirely. credit and store card debt, personal loans and people The amendment to the motion is very sensible and very dealing with pawn shops, make up 76.4%. welcome. The centre told me the terrible story of a pensioner Having a range of caps on different products in the couple, aged 70, who are still paying off the remainder market is one option for achieving the two aims I have of their mortgage and who came to the centre last week. just set out. However, the market is diverse and dynamic; The interest on their mortgage is being paid by the the mention of the growth in payday lending in the Department for Work and Pensions but there is a motion is a good example of how the market keeps shortfall. When the centre explored their income and changing. In such a market, the danger of such an outgoings, it found they were paying £80 a week to a approach is that when certain categories are capped, well-known doorstep lender. That type of abuse there will be growth in different categories as people try demonstrates the urgent need for regulation in this area. to morph products and move into different areas of the market to avoid regulation. Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): Is not one reason for urgency precisely that those in multiple debt If caps are to be considered, one idea that I would are faced with doorstep lenders who visit them regularly like to throw into the mix for the Minister to consider is so that they are inevitably drawn towards paying those what I call a twin cap. Rather than having caps on debts above others that would normally be considered different categories, we could set out a formula with a priority debts, such as rent and utilities? Allowing those maximum rate of simple interest combined with a one-off debts to fall by the wayside causes greater problems percentage of the principal—for example, a 30% interest such as eviction. rate and a 15% arrangement fee. I suggest that structure because it more closely reflects the actual cost of providing loans. Shorter-term loans cost more to provide because Mr Bain: My hon. Friend makes an extremely powerful there is a fixed-cost element for the initiation and completion and accurate point. The looming crisis in personal debt of the loan. My own back-of-the-envelope modelling—I was summed up last April by Citizens Advice Scotland, stress it is no more than that—suggests that some credit which said: companies may well set their prices in that way. If there “The problem is not just the number of people who are in were a cap of 50% annual interest plus a 15% one-off debt…. It’s the extent of the debts that those people have.” charge, just about every segment of the market would Having analysed the problem, it found that survive, but by curbing the very worst excesses over “On average, Scottish debtors have debts that are 50% higher time, we could bring that down. than they were five years ago. And for every £1 they earn per month, the average Scottish debtor owes £28 in debt.” I do not have time to go through the rest of what I wanted to say, but we should not forget everything Today, we have the opportunity to begin the process of else—supplementary charges, roll-over charges, missed ensuring that that burden does not rise through this payment charges and minimum payments. Critically, Parliament. lenders should be required to take all reasonable steps The hon. Member for Solihull (Lorely Burt) mentioned to make sure that loans are paid down and that charges the EU consumer credit directive, but in many ways, never exceed a set percentage of the outstanding loan in that has added to the problem facing us today. Previously, any given month. providers were required to give two thirds of successful applicants for credit cards the advertised rate; under the directive, that will fall to just 51%. That change will 2.31 pm leave millions of consumers paying more than they Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): It is a expected when they applied for credit, and people in pleasure to speak in the debate and to follow the hon. that situation will increasingly resort to short-term credit. Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds). I agreed Five minutes from my home and my constituency with many of his remarks. I congratulate my hon. office, in Springburn shopping centre, is a BrightHouse Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) store. I shall share with the House some of the prices on speaking not just with passion and power but with that my constituents were being charged for basic goods the authority of someone who has done tremendous last week. For a washing machine with a cash price of work in this area, and I hope that hon. Members across £703, the payable amount under the BrightHouse credit the House will endorse her proposal, her private Member’s scheme was £1,558.44. For a freezer with a cash price of Bill and the motion she has moved today. £773, the amount payable through BrightHouse was 1093 Consumer Credit and Debt 3 FEBRUARY 2011 Consumer Credit and Debt 1094 Management Management £1,714.44. For a children’s bunk bed set, the cash price Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): Could the hon. was £345.69, but the BrightHouse credit charge was Gentleman explain to a constituent of mine who has six £765.96. We have the time to act now. I urge Members loans from payday loan companies, each one borrowed to seize the opportunity and to stop my constituents to pay off the other, how that could take place if the and those of Members on both sides of the House companies are targeting people to ensure that they have having to experience that sort of abuse from the short-term the ability to pay? credit industry. Stephen Lloyd: The hon. Lady raises a good point, In the short time left, I shall mention Provident and an important one. There will be some anomalies, cheques. Provident specialises in lending small sums, but when I did the research I found that the majority of typically between £200 and £300, but with borrowers people who use payday loans pay them back regularly, having to take out the loan for the longest borrowing otherwise the business model would collapse. I hope to period, we have seen interest rates ranging from 170% be able to explain that as I go through my remarks. to 500%. A customer borrowing £200 over 55 weeks pays £330, equivalent to an APR of 177%. The companies offer credit to those who are financially excluded by larger and seemingly more reputable financial Members in all part of the House must surely appreciate institutions, such as those banks that are now owned by that markets must have morals. We can act today to the taxpayer. Although some of those loan companies begin the process of regulating the industry. I urge the have been associated with inescapable cycles of debt, as House to grasp the opportunity. my hon. Friend the Member for Chippenham (Duncan Hames) mentioned earlier, and with poverty, as noted by pressure groups such the excellent End Legal Loan 2.38 pm Sharking, I now recognise that the whole issue is simply not as black and white as it has been painted. Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD): I echo my colleagues in paying tribute to the hon. Member for Walthamstow Duncan Hames: Does my hon. Friend accept that the (Stella Creasy) for pushing this issue and bringing the huge growth we have seen in the sector recently is an motion to the House for us to debate. It is incredibly indication of how profitable this business is for those important. organisations? When I first heard about the astronomical APRs Stephen Lloyd: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. charged by the payday loan firm, I was extremely concerned. The figures I have show that the sector is worth in excess When I discovered that the precise APRs charged were of £1 billion per annum, and heading towards £1.5 billion, way beyond what I had feared or even imagined possible, so it is clearly very profitable. That is the point I want to ranging up to 2,000% in some cases, I was absolutely make, if Members will bear with me. staggered. However, having carried out research over The blunt reality is that many disadvantaged people the past few months, I have discovered that the subject simply do not have access to high street banks, which we is horrendously complicated. Others have talked about all take for granted, and consequently they are forced to that complexity, and I shall do so as well. look elsewhere. They have no choice, and there is the We all know that there is one primary factor that rub. It is not simply people with poor credit ratings who maintains the status quo of iniquitous social exclusion seek the services of firms offering payday loans. A for those at the very bottom of the income ladder—one reality check is needed, because in modern society across primary factor that stops people from advancing socially the UK there is a real and present demand for quick, and economically. That factor is financial exclusion, as short-term loans to bridge the gaps between when the hon. Member for Walthamstow so brilliantly identified. individuals need money and when they are paid. Many people in disadvantaged areas have no formal Those people need the money for quite normal savings, access to credit or even a bank account. In transactions, such as paying for a grocery bill or for an 2011, in one of the richest countries on Earth, that is an MOT, and they need it for the short term, just a couple absolute travesty. of days before they get their payday cheque. The money I wrote to a number of the companies that provide is for mundane expenses that everyone has experienced, payday loans and met their representatives; I also spoke but they can be very different for people who need with a number of constituents who have been on the payday loans, because in that area a failure to find the receiving end of those companies’ wares. I inquired money can quickly lead to a crisis that will take them robustly about their business model. I checked it, went from normality to abnormality in the space of 24 hours. through the process and had my team research it. That is a problem, because if well-meaning pressure Frankly, I was surprised by what I discovered: there are groups are successful and able to see off established not necessarily large groups of our poorest citizens payday loan companies or force some of them to withdraw paying through the nose for higher interest loans, and from the market, where will people turn? the business model does not necessarily target people The hon. Member for Walthamstow made the point who habitually default before their loans are compounded. in her Westminster Hall debate that just six companies In the main, I found that lenders—the main suppliers—went are responsible for 90% of business in that market. to great efforts to ensure that their customers were able Although I do not necessarily agree that that constitutes to pay back loans by building up trusting relationships an uncompetitive market—six major supermarkets in with them. That was not the reality that I had expected, this country control 90% of their whole sector—I feel so it was a learning experience for me. It is important that regulating the market further might make it even that debates in this House are informed by facts, and less competitive. I think that greater monitoring of the fact that I have taken on board is that some of those payday loan providers by the Office of Fair Trading to firms play a vital role in certain communities. ensure that they are acting in a moral and responsible 1095 Consumer Credit and Debt 3 FEBRUARY 2011 Consumer Credit and Debt 1096 Management Management [Stephen Lloyd] minimum payment, so even small APRs, which attract people to credit, can have significant consequences if way and in the best interests of the consumer would be there is no education to resolve the issue. the right way forward. Financial exclusion is a horrible Short-term credit companies advertise aggressively. and vicious cycle, and poorer families can spend an We just have to walk down our local shopping streets to additional £1,000 per year on essentials. see posters, advertising boards and window displays That brings me to our high street banks, which are an publicising payday loans and credit. Many of us know integral part of this country’s economy and vital to our about such aggressive advertising, and Members have recovery. All the banks in this country, however, are still already described how lenders can create relationships in existence thanks to the massive 2008 bail-out at huge in a person’s own living room, but the main concern cost to the taxpayer—all of them. Yet, those banks about advertising is that many people look for authorities continue to ignore a great number of taxpayers to on the issue and then give the adverts credence because whom they owe so much. In the banks’ defence, they of them. Indeed, adverts for payday loans with APRs of claim that such customers are high-risk and unprofitable, almost 3,000% have been carried on the website of the but banks are unable to understand their needs and Department for Communities and Local Government—an inaccurately assess the risks they pose. authority to which people might look and say, “If The sector is worth £1.2 billion and clearly profitable, they’re saying it, this must be acceptable.” as my hon. Friend the Member for Chippenham said, Rising unemployment, housing costs and the VAT but it ignores those 6 million people, so they are left to increase could leave families and ordinary people in a the payday loan companies, none of which I should far worse situation, pushing them towards higher credit want to be great friends with. My point is, however, that costs when paying for birthdays, Christmas, household because the banks do not step in, the payday loan repairs or just everyday living. companies have to, and without them the situation might be catastrophic for the many millions of people Helen Goodman: My hon. Friend mentioned the who need them so desperately. significance of the personal relationships that firms build up with borrowers. Does he agree that the network 2.45 pm of people who are on incentivised contracts with the companies, and incentivised to maintain people in debt, Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): I, too, congratulate is one of the biggest market barriers to the conventional my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Stella banks coming into the sector? Creasy). Since we became Members, she has been a stalwart campaigner on the issue, and to have a political Ian Murray: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for issue of such like trending on Twitter—if Government mentioning that. One would think we had rehearsed it, Members would like to look up that term later, they are because I was about to go on to say exactly that. The very welcome to—is a great credit to the campaign that chief executive of the country’s largest payday lender, she has run and to her for representing not only her Peter Crook, recently said that he was likely to see a constituents, but the constituents of all of us. large increase in his target audience owing to the rising Many people on both sides of the House support the levels of unemployment. That highlights the relationships measure, and I was interested to hear the hon. Member that are created not only to keep people in the spiral of for Chippenham (Duncan Hames), who is in his place, debt but to keep the people who are pushing the debt in bring to the Chamber his great deal of experience on the spiral of commissions and maintaining their own the issue. I am disappointed that he is going to put that lifestyles. That shows that strict regulation is required, all to the back of his mind when wandering into the not a code of conduct that could easily be dismissed by Lobby this afternoon, but I hope that in the next hour some of the more unscrupulous lenders. It also shows he will change his mind and support what is one of the that those who are least able to pay are being charged most valuable things that we can do in the Chamber. the most at a time when they are least able to pay for The issue affects many of my constituents and this kind of credit. constituents throughout the country. Debt breaks up Of course, capping the total cost of credit is not an families, demolishes relationships and, all too often, idea that has been plucked out of the air. As my hon. leads to suicide and death, something that has not been Friend the Member for Walthamstow demonstrated, highlighted this afternoon. Rarely are high-interest services there is evidence from around the world showing that it used as a one-off; the spiral of debt, through chasing is perfectly possible to regulate the payday and home the tail of debt as others have said, can lead to families credit markets without adverse effects—all it takes is throughout the country becoming caught in a debt trap the political will to do so. There are undoubtedly detailed and, all too often, a death trap. issues that would have to be resolved, but we are elected I have been struck by the APR and total credit costs to this House to find solutions to problems, not to find that we have heard about this afternoon. My hon. problems to stop solutions, which is how I read the Friend the Member for Glasgow Central (Anas Sarwar), well-intentioned amendment. The political will is in who is not in his place, spoke about 4,000% APR, and the Chamber today to do something about this, and we although I appreciate that the motion is not just about should all grasp the moment and do what is right for capping APRs, but about the total cost of credit, I think our constituents. that such figures should send a shiver down the spine of every Member in the Chamber. 2.51 pm Moreover, the hon. Member for North Swindon (Justin Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): Today we have Tomlinson) explained that a mere 17.9% APR can take gathered in all parts of the House as the champions of up to 40 years to pay off if someone makes just the sensible consumer credit for the most vulnerable in our 1097 Consumer Credit and Debt 3 FEBRUARY 2011 Consumer Credit and Debt 1098 Management Management communities. It is interesting that so many of these Richard Graham: I thank the hon. Gentleman for champions are new Members of this House. Among that contribution. The amendment encourages the our company, I pay tribute, as many others have done, Government to introduce to the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) “measures to increase access to affordable credit” and to my hon. Friends the Members for North Swindon and (Justin Tomlinson) and for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) who have been leading the way in setting out our “urges regulators to consider putting” concerns about consumer credit. caps on prices. I believe that that is precisely the form of The hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead (Teresa words that is appropriate. That is why I support the Pearce) referred to snakes and ladders and concluded amendment. It recognises that 95% of the motion is that the motion was all about increasing the ladders of right, but that it needs a significant but small fine opportunity for her constituents. In truth, it is about the tuning. other side of the equation: reducing the number of snakes, reducing the amount of credit that is made 2.56 pm available through payday lending, and ultimately putting Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East a squeeze on the loan sharks—the one species of fish Cleveland) (Lab): I, too, praise my hon. Friends the which we might all agree we would not mind if the Members for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) and for beastly EU fisheries legislation sorted out for ever. Darlington (Mrs Chapman) for their hard work on this The motion proposed by the hon. Member for issue and for securing this debate through the Backbench Walthamstow calls on the Government to introduce Business Committee. caps on prices. Interestingly, when she introduced the In the poorest communities in my constituency and motion she called for the regulator to put these caps in throughout Teesside, the most vulnerable people are place. All that is at stake in terms of whether we vote for being preyed on by loan sharks and payday lenders. the motion or for the amendment is the narrow issue of That is especially true in these difficult economic whether it is the place of the Government to impose circumstances. The two councils in my constituency caps on prices or whether it is the responsibility of the offer financial advice services that provide free support Government to encourage a regulator to do so. In that to people who need it, with support from Citizens respect, it is relevant that the snappily named “son of Advice and the credit unions. Those services are well OFT”—the consumer markets protection agency, if used by local people and sometimes they are the only that is to be its final name—is the relevant body that accessible source of advice and support. Such services should be putting caps on prices. The consultation is could be developed if post offices worked alongside out there, and we should all be participating in it and credit unions as a post bank. I believe that the Government encouraging the new agency to do so, as the motion have a role in regulating to prevent vulnerable people and the amendment suggest. being targeted and taken advantage of. The other side of the equation, which is all about the It is no surprise that among the only businesses to ladders of opportunity, comes back to the other issue have consistently benefited from the credit crunch are dear to the hearts of many of those in the Chamber—how pawnbrokers and cash-for-gold shops, which offer quick-fix to provide sensible credit to these vulnerable constituents. financial solutions for those in need of money. As the I declare an interest, as have many hon. Members, as a Office of Fair Trading and the Competition Commission member of the Gloucester credit union. I pay tribute to have said, the fact that customers seeking short-term the Government, specifically the Department for Work loans cannot afford to shop around has meant that and Pensions, for funding a post to enable five small there is little competition in the sector, which has inflated credit unions to form together into a Gloucestershire-wide rates artificially. credit union, which will be launched in March. It is In my constituency, the north-east illegal money lending through credit unions that we will make credit available team has worked tirelessly in communities such as Easterside to such constituents. I hope that it is part of the Minister’s to drive out illegal loan sharks who have been taking plans—no doubt he will tell us more—for credit from advantage of vulnerable people. It helped to set up credit unions to be available through the network of sustainable lending and saving by community-based 11,500 post offices. credit unions. The Minister has decided to withdraw The final point I would like to make about the funding for such teams and expects a national body ladders of opportunity is on financial education. I pay based in Birmingham to replace them. I can only guess tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon that that is part of the new consistent localism agenda on the new all-party parliamentary group on this matter. that the Government have displayed. Although it is a less attractive game than bashing The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, bankers, I urge all Members to work with the financial Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey): The hon. services institutions in their constituencies, many of Gentleman will know, I would have thought, that an which provide considerable free financial education. independent study was done on how best to use the funding for illegal money lending teams. We have taken Mark Durkan: The hon. Gentleman compared the on the broad recommendations of that study. It suggested motion and the amendment and suggested that the that a central team would be more effective and use the motion called on the Government to introduce caps. It money better. The people in the north-east will still have actually calls on the Government to introduce regulatory the services of the illegal money lending teams. powers that would allow the introduction of caps. The amendment calls on the regulators to consider introducing Tom Blenkinsop: I do not accept that evidence, because caps. Do the regulators currently have such powers? If the new team will not do the follow-up work that helped they do not, the amendment is specious. to set up the credit unions in those communities. A 1099 Consumer Credit and Debt 3 FEBRUARY 2011 Consumer Credit and Debt 1100 Management Management [Tom Blenkinsop] today, the most vulnerable sometimes enter a vicious cycle in which they are encouraged to extend loans time team in Birmingham cannot have the relationships with and again, or to add a television or washing machine. local people that can defeat the local illegal moneylenders As has been mentioned several times, many Members who people know on their estates. I have campaigned attended the launch of the all-party group on financial hard against this decision, which I believe will leave education, which was set up by my hon. Friend the communities in my constituency vulnerable to illegal Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) and loan sharks, after all the hard work that has been done attended just last Monday by Martin Lewis. There is a to rid us of such criminal moneylenders. real desire among all MPs to bring back financial I back the motion because, contrary to the opinion of education for our young people at school. Gone are the the hon. Member for Solihull (Lorely Burt), it is not days when banks promoted bank accounts and the true that regulating the lending market will push people concept of saving to our young people at an early age to use illegal loan sharks. In the real world, evidence through schools. We need to bring back a robust system shows that high-cost lending may be a precursor to in which our children are educated in finance in a illegal lending because people get into such a financial consistent way. mess, and have such poor credit ratings as a result, that The education programmes of our high street banks, they turn to illegal lenders. And not only that: they are to which many of the banks’ staff dedicate their own often dragged into criminal activity themselves as repayment time, such as the Barclays money skills programme, are by favour or in kind, such as hiding fenced goods, drugs having an impact where they are targeted. The great or weapons. When they get caught, they lose their job results provided by credit unions such as Calderdale and spiral downwards. credit union in tackling doorstep lenders are leading to With rising unemployment, the increase in VAT and progress, albeit with very limited funds, through high the high cost of fuel, I genuinely fear that more and levels of dedication from their staff. Sadly, however, more of my constituents may feel that their only option there is not enough progress and far too many doorstep is to turn to high-cost lenders such as payday, doorstep lenders continue to target the most vulnerable with well and hire-purchase lenders. The Government have already advertised, huge APRs, often in the thousands. That is committed to regulating excessive interest rates on credit not only obscene but immoral, and we need to take and store cards, and it is now time for them to focus on steps to introduce measures to increase access to affordable higher-cost unsecured lenders. That is why I support the credit. We must also urge regulators to consider putting motion. Now more than ever, it is absolutely necessary in place a range of caps in parts of the market in which to protect vulnerable and often desperate people who immoral and often unscrupulous operators target the turn to companies for credit that could destroy any most vulnerable people. hope of their having financial security in future. Ben Gummer (Ipswich) (Con): My hon. Friend talks about some of the positive things that the banks are 3pm trying to do, but the vast majority of debt cases that I Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con): I assure the have seen in my surgeries have originated in appalling hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) that lending decisions by high street banks. It is important to although my grandmother was called Crook, neither stress that now while we are hitting everyone else. she nor I are related to the person whom she named earlier. I thought I should put the record straight on Craig Whittaker: My hon. Friend highlights a serious that one. problem, but it is important to appreciate that some of In Calder Valley, we have the fantastic Calderdale our high street lenders have recognised, in the light of credit union of which I must declare I a member. It does what has happened, that they must do more to target some great work in combating doorstep lending and the most vulnerable to highlight financial issues, as they has achieved much in the local community of Todmorden are doing. to offset those lenders’ high interest rates. It has done so I support the amendment because it is important to through a great education programme and, of course, have a widespread review and not just a prescriptive through providing small loans at a much lower rate, in briefing, particularly given that unscrupulous companies line with that of most banks and reputable high street currently get around advertising the high cost of credit lenders. by massively increasing the base price of goods on offer, Last week, I attended our local Sure Start centre in examples of which were given by my hon. Friend the Todmorden, at which Barclays bank held a money skills Member for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price) and the training programme for a group of young people and hon. Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain). I young parents. It explained the many aspects of finance urge hon. Members to support the amendment. and, importantly, the value of saving, and it became clear that the majority of the group of about a dozen 3.5 pm young people had already come into contact with doorstep John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op): lenders. It is a pleasure to speak in this debate and to follow the Some of the stories that we heard around the table hon. Member for Calder Valley (Craig Whittaker), who were absolutely horrendous, and three key points came spoke well about an area that I know well and where out of the discussion. First, young people are dealing I have relations. I add my congratulations to my hon. with incredibly high interest rates from doorstep lenders. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) Secondly, those lenders’ tactics are horrendous, with on showing the leadership to get this motion on the some of them knocking on the door at 4 am or 5 am to Order Paper today and to publicise it. She has been an collect overdue money. Thirdly, as has been mentioned example to us all. 1101 Consumer Credit and Debt 3 FEBRUARY 2011 Consumer Credit and Debt 1102 Management Management This has been a good debate. Many hon. Members 3.11 pm have spoken well and made excellent points. If the vast majority of hon. Members accept that there is a significant Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): I join others in problem, it is a question of what the Government can commending the hon. Members for Walthamstow (Stella and should do about it. As one hon. Member said, there Creasy) and for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) for is a legitimate argument in favour of funding financial securing this debate, even though they differ on the inclusion education in early years education. Partly amendment. because of the progress made in recent years, that is Many hon. Members have described the problems in necessary, but it is not sufficient on its own. We should their constituencies. The problem is that firms in the welcome the fact that 350,000 loans have been made by credit market are able to exact credit terms that are the not-for-profit sector, but that is not enough, and the lucrative for them but punitive for their customers. enormous problem of people being charged appalling When we hear of some of the eye-watering interest rates rates of interest remains. that end up being charged, it is natural to think that there should be a law against it, and people look to this The question is this: if the Government decide that House to provide some sort of bulwark against open-sky they cannot allocate the funds that they have allocated exploitation. The motion asks the House to give the previously, can they take regulatory action to improve Government a mandate—although it is not a prescriptive the situation and make a genuine difference? That is mandate—to put regulatory powers in place that would why I am disappointed by the response of some provide caps that would be sensitive to the circumstances Government Members. They have a far greater grounding and needs of those who are in dire straits and otherwise in such matters than I do and have spent much of their financially excluded. Those caps would also be sensitive previous careers and parliamentary time in dealing with to the dynamics of different parts of the markets and this issue, but they have not grasped the nettle, and they sub-markets— will not support the motion. Instead, they are taking a course of action that will ultimately delay things and put the matter in the hands of a regulator that has not Damian Hinds: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? been given sufficient political direction to tackle the problem head on. Mark Durkan: No, because—

Damian Hinds: On the wording. Lorely Burt: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Mark Durkan: Well, I am addressing the wording. Many people are misrepresenting the motion and the John Woodcock: If the hon. Lady does not mind, I amendment. will not take interventions because we need to hear as many speeches as we can. The motion would not put prescriptive caps in place or require the Government to do so immediately. The The Conservatives and Liberal Democrats, when they hon. Member for Solihull (Lorely Burt), who supports were the opposition, spoke well of the need to tackle the the amendment, said that a Government consultation is level of debt in society and pointed out some faults in under way. But that consultation is not just asking the the previous Government’s policies. Now is their chance regulators what they think: it is rightly asking all of us to do something. what needs to happen to provide properly regulated Labour must accept that although we must protect financial services and proper protection to customers, people’s right to choose, we must not continue to give both business and personal. Instead, the amendment unscrupulous companies a means to exploit people. I says that we do not even want the Government to hope that the Consumer Credit (Regulation and Advice) consider the question of regulatory powers that would Bill, which my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow protect those customers—we should ask the regulators introduced, promotes credit unions. I am deeply proud to consider that question instead. Who are the regulators? of Walney Island credit union, which was set up by The very consultation that the hon. Lady was talking churches in response to mass redundancies at Barrow about is about who the regulators will be in the future shipyard to help people through those enormously difficult and what powers they will have. So the amendment is an times. We should no longer tolerate the gap being filled evasion and dereliction of parliamentary responsibility, in this way while alternative forms of credit are introduced. because it would simply ask the regulators to think about the issue—when we are still thinking about who In our privileged financial position, we have no need the regulators should be and what powers they should of loans of the kind regularly taken out by the poorest have. It is a case of “There’s a hole in my bucket, dear members of our society, but my hon. Friend the Member Liza.” If people want an answer to this problem, they for Erith and Thamesmead (Teresa Pearce) spoke so should not back the amendment. well about the choice that she would probably have ended up making in desperation had she been in a Damian Hinds: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? situation in which she did not have enough money to get through Christmas. Mark Durkan: No, because I want to give other hon. The freedom to make choices is important, but it is Members a chance to speak. The hon. Gentleman is ultimately part of the Government’s role to prevent us supporting the amendment and he ended up pleading from being exploited and making the wrong short-term with the Minister to consider what he called “twin choices when in a desperate situation. That is what this caps”. I do not know why he did that when he is backing debate is about, and I hope that Members on both sides an amendment that says that the Minister should not of the House will support the motion. consider anything to do with caps. So the hon. Gentleman 1103 Consumer Credit and Debt 3 FEBRUARY 2011 Consumer Credit and Debt 1104 Management Management [Mark Durkan] charging extortionate rates of interest for arranged overdrafts. He was levying a charge of 19.3% on his does not want the Minister to have anything to do with customers—more than 38 times the bank of England this and instead it should be unspecified and unknown base rate. Last month, Barclays was fined £7.7 million regulators. by the Financial Services Authority for misleading savers, There is even more uncertainty about who the regulators and RBS was fined £2.8 million by the FSA for its in Northern Ireland would be. If I, as a Member inadequate handling of customer complaints. representing Northern Ireland, was to support the The increase in personal debt has been mentioned. It amendment, I would be asked by my constituents, “Well, is not coincidental that, since 2000, productivity has who are the regulators in our country?” It is unclear risen at double the rate of wages, which have in some who the regulators would be in Northern Ireland. That sense stagnated. As a consequence, people have borrowed is why I cannot join others in sidestepping the main and household debt has exploded. That might also point of the motion by backing the amendment. explain why we have seen an explosion in the demand I would like to join my Celtic colleague, the hon. for short-term credit. It has already been mentioned Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan that in 2009 the payday lending industry was worth Edwards), in making a point about debt management more than £2.2 billion—more than 3.5 times what it and debt management plans. There are not only loan was in 2006. However, we are where we are, and the sharks out there, but debt sharks, who pose as debt need for credit has now become a basic essential of dolphins coming up to help people who are deep in dire everyday life. I would be prepared to bet that most debt. We need clearer regulation. We know that an people in the Chamber have a credit card. We all come Office of Fair Trading report found that more than 129 under different stresses when we go through different companies were engaged in various questionable practices; things in our lives—for example, moving home. and we know that there are models for statutory schemes, One of the problems is that it is often the poor and not just in other jurisdictions such as the south of the vulnerable who are most in need of credit. That was Ireland and elsewhere across Europe, but even in Scotland, one reason I wanted to participate in today’s debate. I where there is a debt arrangement scheme that provides represent a constituency that is varied but has pockets a good model for protecting consumers in dire need of of severe deprivation, and we find that it is those people credit but being exploited in the name of debt management who are struggling to gain access to credit and struggling plans. with financial issues. In the past four months, my local The term “flipping” was used during the parliamentary citizens advice bureau has dealt with well over 400 debt expenses scandal to describe MPs changing houses. In advice queries. Despite that, however, those poor and the debt management plan arena, of course, we have vulnerable people are the very ones getting the rawest flipping as well, with companies sucking customers in deal from the sector in terms of the services they are with unsustainable terms then flipping them on to more being provided with. Three million people in this country exorbitant terms in the future. do not have a bank account, and 35% of those in deprived communities do not have access to simple 3.15 pm banking services. Mr Chuka Umunna (Streatham) (Lab): I also congratulate I think that the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Stephen my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Stella Lloyd) mentioned the fact that the industry has pointed Creasy) on securing this debate, which I think has been to all that it has been doing since 2003 to introduce a very good one. I also endorse the comments of the basic bank accounts. Typically, the bank accounts that hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) about the have been introduced since that time allow customers to amendment. receive their pension or benefit payments and perhaps In the little time available, I want to widen the debate have a debit card, but they do not offer overdrafts and to talk about financial exclusion in general. We have the often do not provide access to a cheque book. They discussed these issues over the past few weeks, and in do not provide the full menu of services that we would the coming months, when we will be talking about some all expect. of the big macro-prudential issues relating to the financial For me, this is simple: the industry is failing to do services sector, we will be considering whether to separate anything about financial exclusion. With the present out our banks between investment and retail; and we voluntary commitment, the sector lacks sufficient incentive will also be considering banks’ loss-absorbing capacity, to dedicate its resources to help to address the issue, not risk assets and such like. However, it is extremely important least because of its obsession with maximising shareholder that we do not forget some of the issues presenting value. Yes, it has a legal duty to do that, but that challenges for the people we represent. The hon. Member sometimes goes against its obligations to society, which for Ipswich (Ben Gummer), who is no longer in his has provided £1.3 trillion of support to the sector since place, referred to the raw deal that many of our constituents the global financial crisis came to a head. In addition to are getting from the big retail banks. I endorse what he supporting the motion, I would like us to introduce a said. universal banking service obligation, to prevent people A 2004 investigation by The Guardian found that from needing to go to the doorstep lenders in the first payment protection insurance, for example, was being place. widely mis-sold by many of the banks to customers who would not be able to claim under the terms of the 3.21 pm insurance. Banks were making profit margins of up to 80% on those products. I am a member of the Treasury Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): I want to Select Committee, and last November I took the chief thank my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow executive officer of Lloyds Banking Group to task for (Stella Creasy) not only for securing this debate, but for 1105 Consumer Credit and Debt 3 FEBRUARY 2011 Consumer Credit and Debt 1106 Management Management the campaign that she has been waging on this subject There was a recent Westminster Hall debate on basic since she was elected. Mention has been made of the bank accounts, in the course of which it became clear review of consumer credit, and of the consultation, that, for all the espousal of financial inclusion, there is a which closed some time ago. It is important to remember growing inability to will the means that are needed. The that that review would not even have looked at some of measure before us is one of them, and there are several these issues if my hon. Friend had not pushed for them more. In my earlier intervention I referred to the growth to be examined, so we are here today in part because of fund. Every Member wants there to be more sources of her efforts. affordable credit. We are all great supporters of credit It always worries me when people say things like, “We unions—indeed, I am a member of my local credit don’t need to regulate yet” or, “We’re all in agreement union—and we want their lending to be expanded. with this, but—”. One practical recent measure that led to that expansion was the growth fund. As a result of it, lending by credit Lorely Burt: The Labour Government had 13 years in unions and other community-based financial institutions which to regulate, and they conducted three investigations was able to expand greatly. That will end in March this into this very subject. They did not bite the bullet, year, however. Some people might say, “Well, that’s the however, so the hon. Lady should not be criticising us. date your Government set for it to end.” I must say yet We are conducting a consultation nine months into this again, however, that had my party been re-elected last Government. May, I would have been pressing them to extend the growth fund because it has built up many credit unions Sheila Gilmore: The hon. Lady has been told on and other community-based financial institutions to several occasions by various Members that the proposal provide an alternative for people. Without that lending in the motion is different from some of the proposals capacity however, many such organisations will have to that were not taken up by the previous Government. If reduce their lending activities substantially; that is what I had been in this place then, I would have been pushing they are telling me. The alternatives that people often my Government to do exactly what the motion proposes. say should be in place before we legislate will therefore It is not good enough to say, “If your Government did not be in place if we do not go on expanding through not do this, you should not propose it now.” For how the growth fund. long does she think should we be disbarred from making I was also concerned to hear that the financial inclusion such proposals? One year, two years, 13 years? On that taskforce within the Treasury, which the previous basis, we might as well not be here at all, but perhaps Government set up, is, in effect, being wound up. Several some Members on the Government Benches would of the people who were working in this field have prefer that. already been redeployed to other activities. If we want to put our money where our mouth is, we Craig Whittaker: I understand the party politics involved, need to put in the financial resource and the legislation. but does the hon. Lady acknowledge that we have Even at this stage in the debate, I hope that Members already heard a lot of evidence today about how these are willing to decide to vote for the motion and not unscrupulous companies get around the process anyway support the amendment, and to put pressure on the simply by increasing the base price? We need to take Government to continue the work that the previous time out to have a look at this in a proper, regulated Government did in a variety of fields. This is part of the manner. big jigsaw puzzle that we have to address when dealing with financial inclusion and the problems some people Sheila Gilmore: I am not convinced that we have face. We need all the following measures: we need credit heard assertions or evidence that that could happen. If unions, but we need the resource to go with them; and we always decided not to legislate because someone we also need community-based financial institutions could get around the law, there might be a case for not and other sorts of credit unions. legislating. There is one further small provision that the Minister I should declare an interest as a solicitor, and one of might want to consider: reforming and extending the things that drew me to the law as much as to politics community investment tax relief. Many community was my belief that the law is a valuable tool to help development financial institutions—community-based those who are more vulnerable. The law is a lever to lending institutions that lend to individuals and create a better balance of power between those who businesses—would like that, and I hope that the have power and assets and those who do not. Government are prepared to consider this further measure I am not saying that we should regulate on absolutely that is part of the wider jigsaw puzzle. everything, but regulation is necessary if we are to deal I commend the motion, and I hope the consensus with a problem that has expanded greatly, partly but that has been apparent will translate into support for it. not entirely because of the recession. The industry is incredibly seductive for people; it offers them attractive 3.28 pm places to go and produces attractive adverts that make Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): I congratulate my hon. everything seem very easy. There is widespread agreement Friends the Members for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) on the need to help people and to make changes, and for Darlington (Mrs Chapman) on proposing today’s provided that that is not done through regulation, but motion. I especially congratulate them on recognising we must will the means, not just the end. It is not the complexity of the problem and on presenting us enough to have warm words and to keep talking about with a practical and realistic proposal for cracking how important it is to have measures to deal with down on the excessive fees and costs charged by doorstep financial exclusion and vulnerable people. We have to lenders. The Opposition Front-Bench team is pleased to will the means to do that. support the motion. 1107 Consumer Credit and Debt 3 FEBRUARY 2011 Consumer Credit and Debt 1108 Management Management [Nia Griffith] prepayment tokens. When we were in government, my right hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster North I also pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for (Edward Miliband), the then Secretary of State for Walthamstow for using parliamentary procedures and Energy and Climate Change, put considerable pressure organised campaigning so effectively to highlight this on the regulator Ofgem to tackle the energy companies problem and for seeking to find a workable solution. It with sustained pressure itself. The energy companies is a tribute to her that her work has inspired so many eventually reduced the unit costs paid by those using other hon. Members to prioritise the issue, to do their prepayment meters—reduced, yes; but admittedly not own research and to try to think through workable ways reduced to the very cheapest rates, which are paid by of cracking down on extortionate charges. She is fully those who can shop around and choose to pay by direct aware of the reasons why a single cap on interest debit, in recognition of the fact that, as the energy rates—perhaps an arbitrary figure plucked out of the companies pointed out, there is a higher cost involved air—would not be the solution and could have unintended in the administration of prepayment meters. Nevertheless, consequences. there was a recognition that the charges had been too My hon. Friend has understood the evolution of our high, and they were reduced. thinking, from first having reviews when we were in government, to the position in our manifesto in which The motion that we are debating today asks the we pledged to clamp down on such practices. She has Government to intervene in a similar way in the high-cost used her own research and has come up with a practical doorstep lending market. By introducing new regulatory solution, which she has explained in her speech and the powers, a regulator can work with the industry, taking motion, which comprises a range of powers that the account of the legitimate extra costs of collecting frequent regulator needs to tackle the problem. As my hon. small payments in person, and can work to achieve Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna) has realistic reductions in exorbitant interest rates and charges. said, we are asking the Government to consider the This is not about imposing an arbitrary interest rate cap matter now precisely because they have been looking at that would drive companies to slap on other charges; regulation. Those are the reasons why it is particularly nor is it about driving legal companies out of the appropriate that the motion should have been brought doorstep-loan markets, leaving vulnerable customers forward today, with its practical solution to the problem. prey to the illegal loan sharks. This is about working with the industry to reduce the overall cost that the Many of those on low incomes have no reserves to customer has to pay for payday loans and home credit. help them get through difficult times. They struggle to make ends meet and pay their bills. Any loss of income As the hon. Member for South Norfolk (Mr Bacon) or small change in circumstance can lead to their having has so forcefully reminded us, regulators need teeth, to choose between putting the heating on and putting and it helps if they also have strong backing. That is food on the table, driving them into the hands of those precisely why it is so important to have the stronger offering payday loans. It is therefore not surprising that wording of the motion proposed by my hon. Friend the there has been a particularly rapid increase in the payday Member for Walthamstow, which refers to loan market over the past few years. In 2009, the payday lending industry was worth more than £1.2 billion, “regulatory powers that put in place a range of caps,” more than three and a half times what it was worth in 2006. There are now some 1.2 million people using the rather than the weaker wording suggested by the payday lending market and more than 3 million people amendment. Our experience with prepayment meters using the home credit market. The problem has been was that it took strong leadership and firm pressure to further exacerbated in the past couple of years by the effect the necessary changes. I strongly suspect that tightening up among mainstream lenders. People have tackling the excessive charges of doorstep lenders and found their credit limits from mainstream lenders suddenly home credit companies will also require strong powers curtailed, and they have been forced to look elsewhere, and political will. thereby swelling the numbers of those relying on high-cost As the motion says, it is important to increase access doorstep borrowing or home credit firms. to affordable credit. When we were in government, we Those on low incomes often have the least choice. took concerted action to promote access to alternative Those with the lowest incomes often end up paying the sources of credit through the growth fund. That increased highest prices for goods and services. They often do not the availability of affordable personal loans by third have the spare cash to bulk-buy or take advantage of sector not-for-profit lenders such as credit unions and special offers; nor do they have the credit ratings to community development finance institutions. Between walk into high street stores and use a credit card. Many 2006 and 2010, 350,188 loans were approved and payments on low incomes do not have access to the internet, and amounting to £152 million were made. I hope the even if they do, many do not have the credit cards to Minister will tell us whether the Government plan to enable them to go internet shopping. It is the lack of continue that provision beyond April 2011. choice that makes people particularly vulnerable. They have no option but to turn to the doorstep lenders and Let me return to the issue of regulation. As my hon. home credit companies, which charge exorbitant rates Friend the Member for Streatham pointed out, this is a on their cash loans or hire purchase agreements. The particularly appropriate time for the Government to lack of choice or competition in the market makes it introduce regulatory powers. It is bad enough that particularly important that the Government should step low-income communities are bearing the brunt of taxation in and regulate. changes and the Government’s savage cuts in entitlements There is a parallel between this debate and what we and public services. The very least that the Government did in government to tackle the scandal of the high unit could do is accept our modest proposal, and protect cost of electricity charged to those who pay using people from excessive charges for doorstep loans. 1109 Consumer Credit and Debt 3 FEBRUARY 2011 Consumer Credit and Debt 1110 Management Management What we are asking today is for the Government not of closer links between them and the Post Office, enabling to pass by on the other side of the road—not to ignore more people to take advantage of their services. I am those who are being ruthlessly exploited—but to take pleased that we have seen real progress in that regard, some simple, straightforward steps to clamp down on and that many credit union customers who sign up for this callous exploitation. the service can now pay in and withdraw money at their local post offices. I am working with others across Government to establish where and how we can go 3.36 pm further. I hope that we shall be able to proceed with new The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, measures, but we must work out the details. Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey): I congratulate the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) on We are doing other things, and other things are securing a debate on this important subject, on which happening. We have seen the vital development of better there is so much common ground. I believe that there is education about credit and about finance more widely. a consensus across the House that we need to protect The Consumer Financial Education Body is funded in vulnerable people, especially those on low incomes, full by a Financial Services Authority levy on the financial from irresponsible and, worst of all, illegal lenders. services industry. It will provide Britain’s first national financial advice service, which will offer a free, impartial There is, of course, some debate about how we should financial education to all along with an annual financial protect consumers from exploitation. Although today’s health check. That will enable people to manage their discussion has rightly ranged widely, the motion and financial affairs better. Clearly we can and should do many contributions have focused on one particular more, and I particularly welcome the setting up of the option for credit regulation, namely a cap on the total all-party group on financial education for young people cost of credit. I shall deal with that specific point in by my hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon some detail later, but in order to do justice to a number (Justin Tomlinson). of the excellent speeches that we have heard, I shall begin by responding to some of the many points that In addition, this very week, the consumer credit have been made. directive came into force, which introduces new and One of the huge benefits of a debate such as this is powerful regulations for consumers that will have far- that the House has a chance to contribute actively to the reaching consequences for the high-cost credit market. I Government’s ongoing work and, in particular, to our know that not everyone in the House shares the same two ongoing consultations. However the House votes view on Europe and European legislation, but I am sure this afternoon—and I strongly urge all Members to that we can all agree that the new requirements on support the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the lenders to undertake a creditworthiness assessment before Member for Worcester (Mr Walker)—I assure Members any loan is made and the new 14-day cooling-off period that we are in listening mode. We have not reached our for consumers, allowing them to withdraw from any final conclusions, not least because one consultation credit agreement, are welcome. Under the directive, has not closed and we have yet to analyse all the pre-contractual information for the consumer will now submissions made in response to the call for evidence. have to show the total cost of credit and how much has Let me, however, tell the House what the Government to be paid back. I believe that the new regulations and have been and are still doing, and how we have learnt their changes will make a real difference. from the previous Government’s attempts. Of course, From that list it should be clear that the Government they rejected proposals for caps on consumer credit not have been active and lots of new measures have just once, not twice, but three times. been implemented, but I want to go further. That is The previous Government were not shy or inactive in why, jointly with the Treasury, my Department has this regard, and some of their policies were good. We launched two reviews that will be fundamental to are continuing those policies and hope to improve on the regulation of consumer credit in future. First, the them. Let me give two examples. The first relates to Government are reviewing the framework for financial illegal moneylenders—the loan sharks who will use services regulation, including the two current consumer intimidation and even violence to collect their money. credit regulators, the Office of Fair Trading and the They are criminals, and they need to be identified, Financial Services Authority. The review is an opportunity caught, charged and imprisoned. The previous Government for us to look at how best to regulate consumer credit set up illegal moneylending teams whose job was to and who should have responsibility for that. We are help to enforce the law in communities throughout the consulting now and any new regulator may well end up country. They are specialist teams consisting of trading with greater powers to intervene in the consumer credit standards officers and seconded police officers who are market to introduce the powers that many here today taking the fight to the loan sharks. Despite the cuts that are seeking. we are having to make, we have maintained spending in that area, and we hope to make the money go further The FSA has already made its thoughts known on and work harder against those criminal loan sharks by this subject in a discussion paper about “Product reorganising the teams and following the recommendations Intervention”. Chapter 6 deals with product intervention of an independent study. options for the new regulator and mentions price capping. My second example relates to the availability of more Paragraph 6.40 states: affordable credit. We are actively trying to make some “Price capping is the most radical price intervention and would of these high-cost credit markets more competitive so involve us making difficult judgements about the appropriate that people on low incomes can have more choice and price we regard as consistent with good consumer outcomes. credit can be affordable and accessible. I have made no However, we consider that it is an option that should remain secret of my support for credit unions and the building open.” 1111 Consumer Credit and Debt 3 FEBRUARY 2011 Consumer Credit and Debt 1112 Management Management [Mr Edward Davey] what she claims. We need to gather evidence and properly assess it, and I reassure the House that we will do that. The Government have also launched a review of When we have analysed the evidence and got the results consumer credit and personal insolvency, which takes of consultations, we will report back to the House. We an end-to-end view from the decision to borrow to how will not be afraid of taking tough measures if they are we support people in difficult circumstances and help required. them to resolve their debt. It looks, for example, at the advertising of credit, which has been mentioned by several hon. Members. 3.45 pm I cannot give any undertakings today about what will Stella Creasy: I want to put on record my thanks to emerge as a result of those reviews, because we are still all Members who have taken part in today’s debate. The considering the evidence. Nothing has been decided and fact that 21 Back Benchers have come to speak and that it would be irresponsible of me to stand here today there has been broad agreement suggests that this issue pre-empting their results, but we are not afraid of cannot be ignored any longer. I note the exceptions of taking action where the evidence justifies doing so. We the hon. Members for Solihull (Lorely Burt) and for will not hesitate to act where there is evidence of detriment Eastbourne (Stephen Lloyd) and their concerns. They to consumers or exploitation of them. The Government might want to reflect on their ability to add heat to a want poor households to be able to strike a better subject that requires light. That is the challenge we face balance between how they save, insure and access credit, today. and we are looking at a lot of ideas. I am deeply disappointed by the Minister’s approach For example, we believe that there are great gains to to the debate. He offers so much and at the last minute be had from collective purchasing. We are working with takes it away. To talk about the discussion on total cost the insurance industry and social landlords to develop credit and then quote from an industry-led report that and promote affordable home contents insurance for has been funded and supported in that way is a shame. social tenants. If those products succeed, they will Notwithstanding that, I hope he will accept that the enable many more households to claim back the cost of broad support from Members today shows that there is household emergencies, rather than relying on high-cost agreement that there is a problem that needs to be credit to replace essential goods if they are burgled or a addressed, and that the measures brought forward so high-cost item, such as a washing machine, if it breaks far have not been satisfactory. The issue, then, is how we down. We hope that the trials of such products will should proceed. commence in March or April this year. Such measures I had hoped to convince the Minister today that the will not be an immediate solution, but they could help Opposition’s proposals, to which the motion speaks, are those on low incomes even more than caps on high-cost rooted in evidence—recent evidence that he has previously credit. put forward to me to support his case. I note that he has I come to the one specific issue that the hon. Member changed his mind now, but perhaps he will change it for Walthamstow wishes us to focus on: a cap on total again. The big truth at the heart of this issue is that the credit. The motion calls on the Government to consider longer the Government linger, the more problems will introducing a cap on the total cost that lenders can deepen. I go back to the point that nearly half of charge for credit. At first glance, that appears sensible. households, as a direct result of the economic conditions Yet, despite what she said, the evidence base for her new we are in, are struggling to make ends meet, and that approach is limited, to say the very least. What seems 10% of them are borrowing from the people we have sensible at first glance could have huge unintended been discussing. The longer we fail to act, the more consequences for those we are trying to help. Without a these rates will cripple families across the country, so I proper assessment of the evidence it would be rash and urge him not to reject the proposals simply because of frankly negligent to rush into this proposal. We know an ideological objection to regulation. Regulation done that there have been studies carried out that show that well has been supported by Hayek. an interest rate cap could have very detrimental impacts I also urge the Government not to reject the proposal on the vulnerable—that was accepted by the previous simply because it comes from the Opposition. I say to Government. This year’s OFT review of the high-cost the Minister: “You may have used your party to delay credit market ruled out not just interest rate caps, but progress to date, but you will not stop the pressure from any price controls in the market. The EU review that the people of this country for something to happen. the hon. Lady prayed in aid is ambiguous on this, to say That has been very clear today. You have left your own the least. Back Benchers uncomfortable by forcing prevarication, A forthcoming study, which has not yet been published, but please do not leave that wound to fester. Work with has been undertaken by Policis. It has had the advantage all of us who would support and encourage a form of of collaborating with Claire Whyley, chair of the credit capping. We will not let you throw these proposals out sub-group of the Financial Inclusion Taskforce and and we will do what we can to continue this debate and chair of the FSA consumer panel, and Paul Jones, who keep this issue alive. We will hold you to account is the leading expert on social lending. The study concludes because our constituents demand and need nothing by saying that if a cap were to be constructed to take in less. If only the Government stand in the way of progress, the total cost of credit, including penalty charges and I urge them to reconsider. Please support the motion as similar, more of those on low incomes would be likely it is and do not amend it. Please show clear leadership to find access to mainstream options restricted or curtailed and send a clear signal to our constituents that you are altogether. That is the only evidence I have seen that not in the pocket of the legal loan shark industry but deals with this issue in detail. We have to assess these that you stand as we do with the poorest consumers in issues, because the hon. Lady’s proposals do not do this country, seeking action now.” I tell the Minister 1113 Consumer Credit and Debt 3 FEBRUARY 2011 Consumer Credit and Debt 1114 Management Management honestly that if he does that and makes a clear commitment Howarth, Mr Gerald Pritchard, Mark to doing that today, we will applaud him; if he does not, Howell, John Raab, Mr Dominic we will never forgive and we will never forget. Hughes, rh Simon Randall, rh Mr John Huhne, rh Chris Reckless, Mark Question put, That the amendment be made. Hunter, Mark Rees-Mogg, Jacob The House divided: Ayes 271, Noes 156. Huppert, Dr Julian Reevell, Simon Hurd, Mr Nick Reid, Mr Alan Division No. 190] [3.48 pm Jackson, Mr Stewart Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm James, Margot Robathan, rh Mr Andrew AYES Javid, Sajid Robertson, Hugh Adams, Nigel Davies, Philip Jenkin, Mr Bernard Robertson, Mr Laurence Aldous, Peter Davis, rh Mr David Johnson, Gareth Rogerson, Dan Amess, Mr David de Bois, Nick Johnson, Joseph Rosindell, Andrew Andrew, Stuart Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Jones, Mr Marcus Rudd, Amber Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Dorries, Nadine Kelly, Chris Ruffley, Mr David Bacon, Mr Richard Doyle-Price, Jackie Kirby, Simon Russell, Bob Baker, Norman Duddridge, James Lamb, Norman Rutley, David Baker, Steve Duncan, rh Mr Alan Lancaster, Mark Sanders, Mr Adrian Baldwin, Harriett Dunne, Mr Philip Latham, Pauline Scott, Mr Lee Barclay, Stephen Ellis, Michael Laws, rh Mr David Selous, Andrew Barker, Gregory Ellison, Jane Leadsom, Andrea Shapps, rh Grant Baron, Mr John Ellwood, Mr Tobias Lee, Jessica Sharma, Alok Bebb, Guto Elphicke, Charlie Lee, Dr Phillip Shelbrooke, Alec Beith, rh Sir Alan Evans, Graham Lefroy, Jeremy Simpson, Mr Keith Bellingham, Mr Henry Evans, Jonathan Leigh, Mr Edward Skidmore, Chris Beresford, Sir Paul Evennett, Mr David Leslie, Charlotte Smith, Miss Chloe Berry, Jake Fabricant, Michael Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Smith, Henry Binley, Mr Brian Featherstone, Lynne Lewis, Brandon Smith, Julian Birtwistle, Gordon Foster, rh Mr Don Lewis, Dr Julian Smith, Sir Robert Blackman, Bob Francois, rh Mr Mark Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Soames, Nicholas Boles, Nick Freeman, George Lidington, rh Mr David Soubry, Anna Bone, Mr Peter Freer, Mike Lilley, rh Mr Peter Stephenson, Andrew Bottomley, Sir Peter Fullbrook, Lorraine Lloyd, Stephen Stevenson, John Bradley, Karen Garnier, Mark Lopresti, Jack Stewart, Bob Brady, Mr Graham George, Andrew Lord, Jonathan Stewart, Iain Brake, Tom Gibb, Mr Nick Loughton, Tim Stewart, Rory Bray, Angie Gilbert, Stephen Lumley, Karen Streeter, Mr Gary Brazier, Mr Julian Glen, John Macleod, Mary Stride, Mel Bridgen, Andrew Goodwill, Mr Robert Main, Mrs Anne Stuart, Mr Graham Brine, Mr Steve Graham, Richard Maude, rh Mr Francis Stunell, Andrew Brokenshire, James Grant, Mrs Helen Maynard, Paul Sturdy, Julian Brooke, Annette Gray, Mr James McCartney, Karl Syms, Mr Robert Bruce, Fiona Grayling, rh Chris McIntosh, Miss Anne Thurso, John Bruce, rh Malcolm Greening, Justine McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Tomlinson, Justin Buckland, Mr Robert Griffiths, Andrew McPartland, Stephen Tredinnick, David Burley, Mr Aidan Gummer, Ben McVey, Esther Truss, Elizabeth Burns, Conor Gyimah, Mr Sam Menzies, Mark Turner, Mr Andrew Burns, Mr Simon Hames, Duncan Mills, Nigel Tyrie, Mr Andrew Burrowes, Mr David Hammond, rh Mr Philip Milton, Anne Uppal, Paul Burt, Lorely Hammond, Stephen Mordaunt, Penny Vara, Mr Shailesh Byles, Dan Hancock, Matthew Morgan, Nicky Vickers, Martin Cairns, Alun Hancock, Mr Mike Morris, Anne Marie Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Harper, Mr Mark Morris, James Walker, Mr Charles Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Harrington, Richard Mowat, David Walker, Mr Robin Carswell, Mr Douglas Harris, Rebecca Munt, Tessa Wallace, Mr Ben Cash, Mr William Hart, Simon Murray, Sheryll Walter, Mr Robert Chishti, Rehman Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Murrison, Dr Andrew Ward, Mr David Chope, Mr Christopher Hayes, Mr John Neill, Robert Watkinson, Angela Clappison, Mr James Heald, Mr Oliver Newton, Sarah Weatherley, Mike Clark, rh Greg Heath, Mr David Nokes, Caroline Webb, Steve Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Heaton-Harris, Chris Nuttall, Mr David Wheeler, Heather Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hemming, John Ollerenshaw, Eric White, Chris Coffey, Dr Thérèse Henderson, Gordon Ottaway, Richard Whittaker, Craig Collins, Damian Hendry, Charles Parish, Neil Whittingdale, Mr John Cox, Mr Geoffrey Herbert, rh Nick Patel, Priti Wiggin, Bill Crabb, Stephen Hinds, Damian Pawsey, Mark Williams, Mr Mark Crockart, Mike Hoban, Mr Mark Penrose, John Williams, Roger Crouch, Tracey Hollingbery, George Percy, Andrew Williams, Stephen Davey, Mr Edward Hollobone, Mr Philip Perry, Claire Williamson, Gavin Davies, David T. C. Holloway, Mr Adam Phillips, Stephen Willott, Jenny (Monmouth) Hopkins, Kris Pincher, Christopher Wilson, Mr Rob Davies, Glyn Horwood, Martin Poulter, Dr Daniel Wollaston, Dr Sarah 1115 Consumer Credit and Debt 3 FEBRUARY 2011 Consumer Credit and Debt 1116 Management Management Wright, Jeremy Tellers for the Ayes: McCabe, Steve Skinner, Mr Dennis Wright, Simon Andrew Jones and McCann, Mr Michael Slaughter, Mr Andy Young, rh Sir George Andrew Bingham McCarthy, Kerry Smith, rh Mr Andrew Zahawi, Nadhim McDonnell, John Smith, Angela McFadden, rh Mr Pat Smith, Nick NOES McGovern, Alison Soulsby, Sir Peter McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Spellar, rh Mr John Abbott, Ms Diane Engel, Natascha Meacher, rh Mr Michael Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Abrahams, Debbie Esterson, Bill Meale, Mr Alan Tami, Mark Alexander, Heidi Farrelly, Paul Michael, rh Alun Thornberry, Emily Ali, Rushanara Field, rh Mr Frank Miliband, rh David Timms, rh Stephen Anderson, Mr David Fitzpatrick, Jim Miliband, rh Edward Turner, Karl Bain, Mr William Flello, Robert Morden, Jessica Twigg, Derek Balls, rh Ed Fovargue, Yvonne Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Twigg, Stephen Barron, rh Mr Kevin Gapes, Mike Mudie, Mr George Umunna, Mr Chuka Bayley, Hugh Gardiner, Barry Murray, Ian Vaz, rh Keith Begg, Dame Anne Gilmore, Sheila Pearce, Teresa Vaz, Valerie Benn, rh Hilary Glindon, Mrs Mary Perkins, Toby Watson, Mr Tom Benton, Mr Joe Goggins, rh Paul Pugh, John Weir, Mr Mike Betts, Mr Clive Goodman, Helen Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Blackman-Woods, Roberta Greatrex, Tom Reeves, Rachel Williams, Hywel Blears, rh Hazel Green, Kate Reynolds, Jonathan Williamson, Chris Blenkinsop, Tom Greenwood, Lilian Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Wilson, Phil Blomfield, Paul Griffith, Nia Ruddock, rh Joan Winnick, Mr David Blunkett, rh Mr David Hain, rh Mr Peter Sarwar, Anas Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Hanson, rh Mr David Seabeck, Alison Wright, David Brown, Lyn Harman, rh Ms Harriet Sheerman, Mr Barry Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Healey, rh John Tellers for the Noes: Shuker, Gavin Bryant, Chris Hendrick, Mark Stella Creasy and Buck, Ms Karen Hepburn, Mr Stephen Singh, Mr Marsha John Woodcock Burden, Richard Hillier, Meg Cairns, David Hilling, Julie Question accordingly agreed to. Campbell, Mr Alan Hodge, rh Margaret Main Question, as amended, put and agreed to. Chapman, Mrs Jenny Hoey, Kate Clark, Katy Hopkins, Kelvin Resolved, Coaker, Vernon Howarth, rh Mr George That this House notes with alarm recent evidence showing a Coffey, Ann Hunt, Tristram fourfold increase in the use of payday lending since the beginning Connarty, Michael Irranca-Davies, Huw of the recession and that high cost credit lenders advanced Corbyn, Jeremy Jackson, Glenda approximately £7.5 billion to low and middle income consumers Creagh, Mary Jamieson, Cathy in 2008 alone; recognises the problems of financial exclusion, lack Cruddas, Jon Johnson, Diana of financial and debt management education, lack of price Cunningham, Alex Jones, Helen competitiveness in the unsecured lending market and the near Curran, Margaret Jones, Mr Kevan monopoly positions of many large lenders which contribute to Dakin, Nic Jones, Susan Elan the high costs of borrowing; considers that without action these Davidson, Mr Ian Jowell, rh Tessa factors could worsen family debt, poverty and financial difficulties to the detriment of the economic recovery; therefore calls upon Dobson, rh Frank Keeley, Barbara the Government to introduce measures to increase access to Docherty, Thomas Kendall, Liz affordable credit; urges regulators to consider putting in place a Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Lammy, rh Mr David range of caps on prices in areas of the market in unsecured Doran, Mr Frank Lavery, Ian lending which are non price-competitive, likely to cause detriment Dowd, Jim Leslie, Chris to consumers or where there is evidence of irresponsible practice; Doyle, Gemma Lewis, Mr Ivan and believes that such caps should take account of the desirability Dromey, Jack Lloyd, Tony of maintaining access to affordable and responsible credit, the Durkan, Mark Llwyd, Mr Elfyn likely impact on the supply of credit and the cost of enforcement, Eagle, Ms Angela Lucas, Caroline that they should be regularly reviewed and that they should use Edwards, Jonathan MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan the total cost of credit, calculated on a yearly basis, to ensure that Efford, Clive MacShane, rh Mr Denis lender avoidance and distortions in price are prevented. Elliott, Julie Mactaggart, Fiona 1117 3 FEBRUARY 2011 Legal Aid Reform 1118

Legal Aid Reform support in challenging the decision and they will help them. I have to say that that is not the experience I had when I worked for an advice agency. 4.3 pm Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD): On the basis of Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): I beg to move, what the hon. Lady has said, which I support entirely, That this House has considered the matter of the reform of would she be interested to know that Brighton Housing legal aid. Trust’s Eastbourne advice centre deals with at least I thank the Backbench Business Committee for agreeing 800 specialist housing cases per year and anticipates that this important topic be debated prior to the closure that this will fall to about 100? Are we really expecting of the consultation on proposals for the reform of legal Jobcentre Plus to take up the slack? aid in England and Wales. The consultation paper proposes to cut an estimated £350 million from the civil Yvonne Fovargue: Yes, I totally agree. In fact, my local legal aid budget. Roughly two thirds of those cuts are citizens advice bureau has phoned the Benefits Agency directed at people who are currently legally aid-able, 100 times and has had no response apart from saying and one third will come from remuneration cuts to that everyone is busy. providers, who are expected to do the same work but for These issues are not considered of sufficiently high less money. importance, but when a person is ill or has a disability one of their major concerns is having an adequate Some £279 million will be cut from civil legal aid, and income to enable a decent quality of life. The early about half a million people will lose their entitlement advice available under this funding can save money. to legal aid. The majority of them come from low- Some 80% of social welfare legal aid cases have positive income households, and the Ministry of Justice’s own outcomes for clients. In the agency where I worked, 70% equality impact assessment acknowledges that they will of our reassessment appeals were successful, and that be predominantly women, black and minority ethnic negated the need for a costly tribunal. people and ill and disabled people. However, while the consultation acknowledges this, it also says that it is not I would like to debunk the myth that these cases are just about cost but is the “right thing to do”. I believe not complex. My own CAB in Wigan dealt with a case that I can demonstrate that both the cost argument and for three years where the Department for Work and the statement that it is the “right thing to do” are Pensions asserted that a couple were living together as incorrect, and that the implementation of these proposals man and wife, despite evidence from a neighbouring to reduce civil legal aid will hit the poorest hardest, local authority that Mr M was resident there and receiving increase the cost to other public bodies, and have a benefits, and that he merely visited to look after his potentially catastrophic effect on not-for-profit advice disabled daughter, assisting with her care on occasion. agencies, including citizens advice bureaux and law Mrs M was summonsed for benefit fraud, convicted, centres. and ordered to repay £27,000. The CAB continued with the case, appealed three times, and went to the Secretary of State. At the final appeal, Mrs M was found to owe Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): I congratulate my £236—a reduction of more than £26,500. Was that a hon. Friend on securing this debate. Does she agree that complex case? Would it be suitable for a telephone one of the issues that should be addressed is poor helpline? I do not think so. That client needed the decision making by public authorities, particularly in face-to-face help given by a skilled CAB adviser and immigration, where the UK Border Agency fails to was funded by legal help. make good decisions based on good evidence? That is why people have to go to the tribunal, and that is why Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): I they need legal aid. congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. Does she agree that the suggestion that legal advice Yvonne Fovargue: I thank my hon. Friend for that could be provided over the phone fails to understand comment. I will come to that later when I suggest some the level of support that is provided by many legal ways of saving money in the system. representatives, particularly when they are dealing with Whole swathes of advice areas are removed from the vulnerable groups such as asylum seekers and refugees— scope of legal aid, particularly the social welfare law often people who face persecution, are separated from category. Welfare benefit is removed completely from their family, and perhaps do not have English as a first legal aid. According to the Ministry of Justice’s own language? equality impact assessment, 63% of clients who received legal aid in this category had a disability, 54% were Yvonne Fovargue: I agree with my hon. Friend. In female and 27% were from a black and minority ethnic times of stress, people often need the support of a background. However, this is justified by stating that friendly face. the For every £1 of legal aid expenditure on welfare “accessible, inquisitorial and user friendly nature of the tribunal benefits in the Wigan borough, £20.50 per year of means appellants can generally present their case without any additional benefit is obtained for clients. Nationally, for assistance”. every £1 of legal aid expenditure on welfare benefits, It also states: the state potentially saves £8.80. “Advice and help are available from a number of sources Paul Farrelly (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab) rose— including Job Centre Plus and the Benefits Enquiry Line”. So people who have had their claim refused by Jobcentre Yvonne Fovargue: I would like to make a little progress, Plus or the Benefits Agency are to go to them for because the debate is quite late. 1119 Legal Aid Reform3 FEBRUARY 2011 Legal Aid Reform 1120

[Yvonne Fovargue] I shall turn now to the effect on citizens advice bureaux and not-for-profit providers. The Ministry of Debt is another area that will be removed from the Justice estimates that this sector will lose 97% of its scope of legal aid, except for cases in which the client’s legal aid funding. Currently, local citizens advice bureaux home is at immediate risk. The impact assessment shows receive £26 million of legal aid funding, with the largest that 55% of debt clients are female and that 30% are amounts being spent on debt and benefits. If the proposals likely to have a disability. Yet again, the consultation are implemented, £20 million will go in one fell swoop paper states that, although debt problems are important and there will be a significant impact on the ability to to the individual, they are not important enough to deliver not only legal aid-eligible services but all other warrant legal aid funding. client services. A survey undertaken by Citizens Advice I have seen the effects of debt on individuals, and the showed that if the proposal went ahead, 80% of local cost—both human and to the state, including to the bureaux would have to withdraw specialist services, NHS—of not resolving debt issues at an early stage. A 85% would have reduced capacity to meet clients’ needs project that I was involved in used a recognised NHS and, most shockingly, 51%—more than half—felt that scale to monitor stress levels before and after the advice there would be a risk to the continuation of the whole process dealing with unsecure debts. The primary care CAB service in their borough. trust believed that in the first nine months of the Legal aid funding cannot be treated in isolation from project, three suicides had been prevented. At what other sources of advice funding, especially as the cost? In Wigan, the citizens advice bureau deals with consultation assumes that people can access other services 616 debt clients per year at a cost of £123,000 to the to pick up the slack. The free advice sector is suffering state. It reschedules £4.83 million worth of debt and disproportionately from public funding reductions, and writes off £3.47 million worth. For the expenditure of even agencies such as the Royal National Institute of £123,000, £367,000 is saved. Blind People, which have no legal aid funding, have I support the expansion of financial education into approached me saying that they could not deal with any schools and communities, but that will not assist people increase in demand for their services due to the impact who are in debt now. My experience is that when the of the proposals. issue is raised in schools, more parents arrive at the advice agency’s door because they are made aware that Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): The hon. there is somewhere to go. They almost feel that they Lady is making an eloquent case, particularly on behalf have got permission to go there. of organisations that are currently giving evidence on these matters to the Select Committee on Justice. Does Paul Farrelly: Every conscientious MP knows the she recognise that there ought to be some scope for value of citizens advice bureaux. Quite simply, without funding to be provided for an examination of the sources them, our offices would be swamped. That prospect of some of the problems on which advice is being awaits us. My hon. Friend has highlighted the situation sought, whether they are public bodies that make poor in Wigan. Citizens Advice has highlighted that 730 decisions, as the right hon. Member for Leicester East fewer people will receive specialist debt advice in Stoke- (Keith Vaz) rightly pointed out, or the banks? on-Trent, 1,280 fewer in my area of Newcastle-under-Lyme, and more than 1,500 fewer in north Staffordshire. Does Yvonne Fovargue: I totally agree that there is scope she agree that this is not only a false economy, but a for other funding provision, but that has not been heartless cut? available yet. In fact, provision is being withdrawn because of the withdrawal of funding for face-to-face Yvonne Fovargue: I agree with my hon. Friend. I will advice from citizens advice bureaux. go on to give some figures on the impact that the proposals will have on advice agencies. Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): Does my Agencies that provide telephone advice such as National hon. Friend also accept that the need for advice is rising Debtline have a great role to play, but they cannot in the current economic climate, particularly on replace face-to-face advice, as my hon. Friend the Member employment, social welfare benefits and debt? for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood) said. The reality is that people need to sit down with an adviser. They need the reassurance and trust of a relationship Yvonne Fovargue: I completely agree. This is a time of that is built up over time. great change for many clients, and the need for legal help is even more vital. There is a reason why social welfare law problems, including employment, housing, debt and benefits, were The suggested resolution to the problem is the community given primarily to advice agencies: the interlinking of legal advice helpline, the gateway to civil legal aid those problems. Limiting the scope and the type of the services that will offer non-eligible clients access to paid problems that advisers can deal with limits their ability services. First, I wish to take issue with the premise that to deal with the whole person and with all their issues. the legal aid scheme has expanded beyond its original For example, legal help might prevent somebody from intentions. Actually, the Legal Aid and Advice Act 1949 losing their home because of debt, but it will not was promoted with very wide objectives, which were address the causes of that debt, such as unfair dismissal explained as being intended to provide or a refusal of sickness benefits. I could give examples “legal advice for those of slender means and resources so that no of many areas that are taken out of the scope of such one will be financially unable to prosecute a just and reasonable help, but I believe that colleagues will mention them. claim or to defend a legal right”. The list is extremely long and access for the most I am not convinced that a gatekeeping telephone helpline vulnerable is severely curtailed in many cases. will promote that. 1121 Legal Aid Reform3 FEBRUARY 2011 Legal Aid Reform 1122

Access to telephone advice is important, and I would Mr Speaker: Order. More than 20 hon. and right welcome any expansion of it, but it has to be implemented hon. Members have applied to speak in the debate, as a in tandem with face-to-face services. Clients need to result of which I have imposed a limit of five minutes on have that choice. The community legal advice helpline each Back-Bench contribution. I simply remind Members uses an 0845 prefix, which is very expensive from a that they are not obliged to use their full five minutes if pay-as-you-go mobile. Many people with learning disabilities they do not wish to do so. I am keen to get everyone in, or mental health issues prefer to attend in person, to but Members need to help me to help them, and to help pick up on non-verbal signals and build the trust necessary each other. to tell the advisers their problem. Citizens advice bureaux make a particular effort to reflect the communities that they serve, and that is why people use their services. 4.21 pm As an aside, I should like to mention volunteers, who Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (Con): I declare an interest are mentioned in the consultation paper as another way at the outset, because as you and others may know, Mr for people to pick up advice if the proposed changes are Speaker, until my election in May, I worked for 16 years made. However, I do not believe that that is true. as a criminal barrister in Nottingham and other places Volunteers work best and most confidently when they such as Leicester and Derby. are supported and encouraged by specialists. It was It is important to remember that there is a need to only when that support was provided that the number make cuts in public expenditure—that is common ground of volunteers and the depth of the work that they in the House. We have had many debates on where the undertook increased significantly in the bureau that I blame for that lies, and we could continue them, but I managed. suggest that that would not be helpful this afternoon. There are opportunities to save money in the justice We are where we are. No Government Member welcomes sector without placing the burden on front-line services. having to make such cuts, but we have the largest deficit The Ministry of Justice intends to reform the Legal of any G20 country and, with considerable regret, the Services Commission, and there is a large amount of Government have been left in a position in which they bureaucracy in the administration of legal aid. I spent have no alternative but to make severe cuts in public 60% of my time managing 30% of the money that I got. expenditure, including on legal aid. A lighter-touch procurement, auditing and payment mechanism could be found, and that needs to be considered Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) seriously. (Lab): Does the hon. Lady accept the Citizens Advice report that says that the Government’s proposals will Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab): On the not only limit access to justice but increase public point about volunteers, many of my colleagues in my expenditure? chambers, and in local firms of solicitors, volunteer their services to advice bureaux regularly. The incidence Anna Soubry: I do not know about the latter point. I of that will diminish given the dreadful cuts to those have been in contact with the citizens advice bureau in firms’ legal aid and the fact that they cannot take on Broxtowe, and I have made it very clear to Nottinghamshire trainees as a result of the cuts. Advice is diminishing county council that it is imperative to exercise great care drastically as a result of the Government’s cuts. in cutting back the budget of that CAB. The Prime Minister and the Lord Chancellor have spoken about that and it is recognised that citizens advice bureaux do Yvonne Fovargue: I agree with my hon. Friend that a magnificent job. Every Member of the House knows pro bono advice provision is important, but it is not that, because their case loads would increase enormously available in all places. In fact, in the conurbation that I without them. There is a danger that in these difficult served, there was no pro bono advice. times, they will have to deal with more cases, and it is It is also important to decrease the need for civil legal imperative that they have the resources they need. aid by addressing poor decision making by public bodies and avoiding the need for tribunal. We should take the Stephen Lloyd: Does my hon. Friend agree that the lawyers out of tribunals, make legal processes simpler role of citizens advice bureaux is preventive and enabling? and improve public legal education. Early advice saves They focus not on generating unnecessary litigation, money and keeps cases out of the courts. We should but on preventing crisis. Therefore, properly resourced look to fund that kind of advice instead of salami-slicing citizens advice bureaux will actually save money. and looking at administratively convenient categories of problems. Advice provision needs to be organised around people’s real needs and their need to be treated Anna Soubry: Good point, well made, if I may say as an individual, not as an individual problem. so, Mr Deputy Speaker. [Interruption.] Sorry, did I say Mr Deputy Speaker? [HON.MEMBERS: “Yes!”] That is Access to justice is one of the cornerstones of a free outrageous. I apologise most sincerely, Mr Speaker. and civilised society. It is vital that everyone, particularly the most vulnerable, has equal access to the law, no I ask the Minister carefully to consider these cuts in matter who they are, where they live or how much legal aid. Many would agree with me that it is imperative money they have. The Government’s consultation proposes that we ensure that the most vulnerable people in our to remove access to justice for the most vulnerable. Is society do not suffer when we make these sorts of cuts. that access to justice, or justice denied? It is also important to protect the interests of those citizens who cannot protect themselves, and I have two examples regarding the reduction in eligibility for legal Several hon. Members rose— aid in the family division. 1123 Legal Aid Reform3 FEBRUARY 2011 Legal Aid Reform 1124

[Anna Soubry] all lawyers as fat cats. Legal aid lawyers work extremely hard for relatively modest remuneration, and we should A father who is denied contact with his children will remember that. no longer be eligible for legal aid. I submit that that I do not wish to repeat the key points that these cuts cannot be right, not only because of the father’s rights represent a false economy; that there are real dangers in to see his children but because of the rights of the taking whole areas out of the scope of legal aid because children, who have no access to justice. Their interests so many cases are complex, and cases such as debt and must be protected by society—they need to see their housing run into each other and cannot be separated father. Likewise, if a mother has separated from the out; or that there are limits to the value of phone advice. father of her children and he then threatens to take These are very important points, but I will not dwell on them overseas, she too will no longer be eligible for legal them further. aid. That is not only unfair on her as she will not want her children taken overseas, but not fair on her children I want to make three further points. First, if there who will want to have contact with both their parents. was ever a time to be scaling back on legal aid, particularly in civil and social welfare law, this is not it. We are Former colleagues of mine at the Bar have told me seeing massive upheavals in public service delivery: in that they have many concerns, including in the area of education, to which I will return; in housing, through housing. Somebody who is living in squalid housing the proposals in the Localism Bill, which will introduce conditions will more than likely have been eligible for short-term tenancies; in welfare, with £18 billion being legal aid in the past. That will continue to be the case in taken out of the welfare budget through the cuts in many circumstances. However, my concern is that legal housing benefit; in disability benefits; and, as mentioned, aid will no longer be available so that people in that in rising unemployment and the broader economic context. situation can force a landlord to make repairs—to begin to solve the problem before it becomes the sort of Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): problem that would still be eligible for legal aid. Does the hon. Lady not accept that the current cost of I am told—I am grateful to my hon. Friend the legal aid is unsustainable? We are spending £38 per head Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland)—that we of population on legal aid, whereas in Australia it is £9, are paying £24.7 million in legal aid for welfare claims. and in France £3. These reforms are therefore essential In my time in this House, it has struck me that one to get our economy back on track. reason why so many people come to their MPs and to the CABs with their cases—and eventually have to go to Ms Buck: There are so many points with which to the law—is the profound failings of the Department for respond to that intervention. We cannot compare systems Work and Pensions. One of the best things that we between countries. It is not helpful because the legal could do is ensure that that Department is working systems and the delivery of legal aid support are so properly, efficiently and effectively, because that would different. The Labour Front-Bench team are willing to save us considerable amounts of money. As a new discuss the legal aid budget, particularly in some aspects Member, I found it astonishing that we actually have of criminal legal aid. There are areas in which savings MP-dedicated hotlines for our caseworkers to ring to can be made, but I am particularly concerned about sort out problems that should never have arisen but civil and social welfare law. have done so because of the ineffectualness of the My second point, which was made strongly during an Department. I urge the Government to ensure that we earlier Westminster Hall debate, concerns the impact of sort that out. these cuts—given the speed and depth at which they are Finally, I make a plea for the Bar, which has had no being made—on the legal aid firms, law centres, citizens increase in fees for decades. Yet again the criminal Bar advice bureaux and other advice agencies. In many is being asked to reduce its fees by 10%. Prosecuting cases, they draw on legal aid for part of their funding. counsel who are prosecuting a rapist or a persistent The removal of legal aid funding is like a game of dwelling house burglar will be paid a fixed fee of £60. Jenga: we start pulling out the sticks and the whole Sometimes members of the criminal Bar work for less edifice is in danger of collapse. I think we will see a than the interpreter in court, and invariably they are massive, unplanned spate of service closures across the paid considerably less than the medical expert who may country, and we will not be able to control where they be assisting them in their work. happen. There will be advice deserts, and many of our constituents will struggle as a consequence. I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute to the debate. I am sure that the Minister will have heard all I will provide an example of what I am talking about. these points and I look forward to the action that will This reform is being delivered at the same time as cuts in result. local authority spending. The London grant scheme is being repatriated to the boroughs without ring-fencing, which means that advice services in London are at the 4.28 pm whim of local boroughs that are themselves under pressure. Therefore, the grant funding that should Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab): I complement the Legal Services Commission funding is congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield unlikely to be there. That will clearly impact severely on (Yvonne Fovargue) on introducing this debate. She citizens advice bureaux and law centres. As has been spoke with enormous clarity and mapped out the ways said, politicians will regret taking this decision. I am in which the cuts in legal aid will have an impact on our already seeing—I am sure that other hon. Members are constituents. I also congratulate the hon. Member for seeing it too—people coming to me for what should be Broxtowe (Anna Soubry) who made many points with a legal advice and representation service that in many which I agree, including a warning to beware labelling cases we are not qualified, and certainly not resourced, 1125 Legal Aid Reform3 FEBRUARY 2011 Legal Aid Reform 1126 to provide. I predict with absolute certainty that our Members on this side to come forward with solutions. If surgeries will be flooded with more and more desperate the Opposition want to be taken seriously, they need to and angry people who cannot get the proper representation offer solutions as well. they should. Finally, I want to touch on the disproportionate Kate Green: Does the hon. Gentleman not agree that impact on women, children, people with disabilities and the solution that the Government are proposing—namely, people from black and minority communities. We know the wholesale removal of significant categories of social from the scope of the areas affected that these cuts will welfare law—is the most damaging and unsatisfactory fall most heavily on them. We have heard about family way to proceed? law and asylum-seeking communities, particularly asylum- Tom Brake: I hope that the Under-Secretary of State seeking children, who will be left at risk because of for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon these cuts. However, I want to make a particular case (Mr Djanogly), is listening carefully and that there for education and special educational needs. In my might be some adjustments to what is being proposed. borough there is a particular problem of children without We need to hear solutions, however. We do not need to school places—350 were without a place before Christmas. hear a list of concerns without its being followed by Those children and their families need advice and solutions. We all face this problem. representation, and the parents seeking to take action I want to use this debate as an opportunity to raise a against their local authority for denying them a statement couple of specific points, about which I have written to of special educational needs are a particularly vulnerable the Minister. I thank him for meeting me, Steve Triner group. We know from the number of tribunals that and other representatives of my local citizens advice succeed that 82% of parents’ appeals that reach tribunal bureau to discuss their concerns about the proposals. I are upheld. The removal of assistance from those parents, have also recently had meetings with three solicitors in many of whom simply do not have the skills or resources my constituency office. Like other Members on both to make their own case, will mean that their children sides of the House, I too have received a wide range of will not get the education to which they are entitled. briefings from various organisations. I received a briefing I urge the Minister to rethink many aspects of the yesterday from the Equal Rights Trust, and I want to proposals, in particular the narrowness of the scope raise a specific point in that regard. I hope that the that is being applied to legal aid cases and the arbitrary Minister will be aware of the points that have been way in which the services are being withdrawn. raised with me, as I have already written to him about them. 4.35 pm The first point relates to medical negligence. There is concern about the impact that the changes could have, Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): I and whether particularly difficult and complicated medical congratulate the hon. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne cases for which the NHS would previously have taken Fovargue) on opening the debate and on setting out her responsibility might be passed over to social services, genuine concerns about the impact that some of the resulting in their having to take on the financial costs of, changes could have on her constituents. I accept that, as for example, the most serious obstetric mistakes involving a new Member, she can to some extent deny responsibility brain damage in very young children. That is a very for what came before, because she was not a Member specific issue, and I hope that the Minister will be able under the previous Government. I look around her, to respond to it. however, and see ex-Ministers who know full well that My second point relates to family law. Interestingly, they would have been taking the same decisions as we in my meeting with the solicitors, they were not particularly are, and I find their tutting and shaking of heads concerned about the idea of a telephone helpline. They intellectually extremely dishonest. were, however, concerned about what would happen beyond that stage, in regard to referrals. They wondered Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): I should whether there would be a means of identifying at the like to reinforce that point. There were no fewer than 30 beginning of the process that someone could not be consultations on legal aid between 2006 and 2010, dealt with by telephone and that a face-to-face meeting which gives the lie to the argument that there is a divide would be required. on this matter. Both parties were faced with the same Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD): challenges, so let us approach the debate on that basis. Does my hon. Friend share my concern that people with mental health issues might not get equal access to Tom Brake rose— justice when they are involved in family disputes? Tom Brake: My hon. Friend makes a strong point, Mr Speaker: Order. Before the hon. Gentleman responds and I hope that Ministers will listen to such points in to that intervention, I hope that he will confirm to me the debate and during the wider consultation. that he is not accusing any Member of being personally dishonest, because we cannot have that in the Chamber. In family law, people are rightly encouraged to pursue mediation in cases that are currently supported through legal aid. During the meeting, the point was made to me Tom Brake: Of course I am not accusing any ex-Minister that Government bodies and associated organisations of being personally dishonest. are often unwilling to pursue a route that involves I thank the hon. Member for South Swindon mediation. Government, Government Departments and (Mr Buckland) for his intervention. I think that Members associated bodies will be required to show a willingness on both sides of the House regret the decisions that are to engage in mediation, if that is now the direction the having to be taken, but it is incumbent on Ministers and Government are moving in. 1127 Legal Aid Reform3 FEBRUARY 2011 Legal Aid Reform 1128

[Tom Brake] has described as “perverse” the fact that the Government are proposing to fund debt advice only when the client I have already made a couple of points about telephone faces an immediate risk of homelessness. He says: advice, but there are also concerns about whether any “It is widely accepted that timely intervention is more productive local knowledge will be embedded in any telephone and reduces costs elsewhere, such as County Court repossession advisory service, and about conflicts of interest that and other action.” may arise as a result of that, particularly if there are a As other Members have said, these changes represent limited number of suppliers to whom a case can be a terrible false economy, and in the case of Exeter they referred. come at the same time as the local authority, Devon During the meeting, CAB representatives expressed county council, is proposing to cut its support to the the concern that they would now be in the position of CAB by a massive 20%, as part of its attempt to grapple having to take up very personal cases, and therefore be with a 27% reduction in funding from central Government. very much in the front line rather than acting as an Yet it is estimated that for every pound of public money independent body, so they might end up having to spent on CAB services, the CAB saves the public purse represent a particular individual against the other party £12.20. in the case. They are worried about how that would impact on their independence. They are also worried Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab): that a lot of court time would be lost, particularly if I appreciate what my right hon. Friend is saying about more people ended up representing themselves. There is his local citizens advice bureau. In Wolverhampton, the a good job to be done in making that process clearer citizens advice bureau handles some 1,600 cases a year and simpler, so that if more people do represent themselves that are funded by such help, involving 26 employees. there is less risk that they fail to turn up with the right The local director has said: papers or on time. “The CAB would effectively go back 20 years in its development” if the current proposals go through. In response to the Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) (Con): hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom The hon. Gentleman says these changes rely on people Brake), who spoke a few moments ago, would my right being able to help themselves, but what about people hon. Friend care to contrast those proposals with the with learning difficulties or mental health problems, or record of the Labour Government, who increased the people who cannot speak English very well, and what funding to citizens advice bureaux when the recession about people who are too frightened to face their opponent? was coming, precisely because we knew that there would be a greater need for debt advice as economic times got tough? Tom Brake: I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention. The Minister has heard those concerns, and I hope he Mr Bradshaw: My right hon. Friend is exactly right. will seek to address them. Indeed, I was about to make the point—gently, I hope—to The chair of my local CAB has highlighted the fact the hon. Members for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry) and for that the financial inclusion fund will close at the end of Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) that it is not March. I understand that transitional funding proposals good enough for Government Members to excuse every are being looked at, and perhaps the Minister can cut that this Government are implementing by talking respond on that point. about the need for fiscal consolidation. There is a clear The Equal Rights Trust raised with me the issue of choice to be made about the speed and degree of fiscal stateless people, who will now be unable to claim legal consolidation, and there is growing evidence that the aid unless they apply for asylum. Some unexpected speed and degree of fiscal consolidation being pursued consequences may flow from that. I hope the Minister by this Government is not only damaging important will respond to that point at the end of the debate. services such as the CAB, but damaging our economic recovery. All hon. Members need to do— This is clearly a very difficult issue for the Government, and I know the Minister will do everything he can to Rehman Chishti rose— address it effectively. We do not like being in the position we are in, but we have to address this issue now. Mr Bradshaw: No, sit down. All hon. Members need to do is look across the 4.42 pm Atlantic at the example of the United States under Barack Obama, who is pursuing a Keynesian economic Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): I congratulate my policy, like the one that we advocate, where growth was hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) 3.5% in the last quarter, as opposed to a 0.5% contraction on securing this important debate and commend her for here. So please, let us have no more lectures from her excellent speech. Government Members about there being no alternative Given the welcome fact that so many Members want to these savage cuts. to contribute, I will confine my remarks to the impact of For all the Government’s rhetoric about the big society, the Government’s proposals on my local citizens advice the CAB is the big society in action. It is staffed mainly bureau in Exeter, whereby it would lose all its welfare by volunteers, helping everyone, and in particular the benefits funding, and funding for debt cases would be vulnerable, and saves the state millions of pounds in the restricted to instances where there is an “immediate process by ensuring that people in difficulty do not fall risk” of homelessness. Taken together, my CAB estimates into crisis, the fallout from which the state then has to that the changes will affect up to 700 cases a year in pick up. The Government’s proposed changes to legal Exeter alone. The director of Exeter CAB, Steve Barriball, aid and their impact on the work of CABs such as mine 1129 Legal Aid Reform3 FEBRUARY 2011 Legal Aid Reform 1130 in Exeter will have a deeply damaging impact on the specialist solicitors who focus on dealing with complex fabric of our communities and will cost us all far more cases. It is increasingly rare for solicitors to tread the old in the long term. I therefore urge the Government to route of simply applying for investigative help certificates think again about this short-sighted and false economy. for every client who walks through the door with a potential claim, because the cases are just not viable. 4.46 pm The special cases unit of the Legal Services Commission, which is based in Brighton, now seems to apply a robust Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con): I, criterion to all applications for LSC funding in order to too, thank the hon. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne ensure that cases with merit are granted funding. David Fovargue) for introducing this debate. In the spirit of Keegan, director of the commission’s high cost cases the sentiments expressed by my hon. Friend the Member unit, has said: for South Swindon (Mr Buckland), I want to take part not in a partisan way, but on the basis of trying to “We need to ensure that access to justice is as wide as possible and it is in the best interest of clients.” progress the debate. Other Members have spoken about employment, welfare benefits, education and immigration, I would add only that those objectives must be reconciled but it is on clinical negligence that I wish to express in the most cost-effective way possible. some of the views that I have encountered at my weekly I think it pertinent that Lord Jackson’s objective in surgeries. conducting his year-long costs review was to make The Government’s view is that if legal aid for clinical recommendations for the promotion of access to justice. negligence cases is removed, alternative funding will be If legal aid is no longer available, the costs may become available in the form of conditional fee arrangements, disproportionate. which will be funded on the basis of a success fee and I am acutely aware of the Government’s laudable after-the-event insurance. Under Lord Jackson’s reforms, intentions, but I worry about unintended consequences. such fees will be unrecoverable from the losing party. The point that has been made to me most forcefully, The point that has been made to me, which I wish to time and again, is that if we genuinely want to save highlight to the Minister, is that if legal aid is withdrawn costs, it is imperative for the national health service and cases have to be funded by conditional fee agreements litigation authority to make early admissions of liability with insurance, there will be instances where the cost to rather than protracting settlement of cases. What tends the public purse may well be higher. For example, a to happen is that no one in a hospital wishes to admit solicitor at my surgery told me about a cerebral palsy negligence, and a game of bluff develops. Solicitors and case that settled for more than £3.75 million. The costs the NHSLA conduct a legal battle, which is often involved were more than £100,000. The case was legally settled at the last minute. That is why we see headlines aided, but if it had been funded through a conditional about cases involving liability claims amounting to tens fee arrangement, with, say, a recoverable success fee of of thousands of pounds running up legal bills of hundreds 60%, the total costs would have been £160,000. There of thousands of pounds. Like most people, I cannot would also have been a substantial after-the-event insurance understand the logic of that. In such cases, early settlement premium, so the case would have cost the public purse would avoid a pointless game of poker with our money, far more than if it had been funded by legal aid. That is the emotions of patients, and the good will of staff in the position where cases are successful, and where the the NHS. Legal Services Commission does not pay anything. I appreciate that some Members may have not followed 4.51 pm the full argument, and I apologise for using legal jargon, Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): I but the fundamental point remains that although we congratulate the hon. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne may be saving legal aid costs, we may end up paying Fovargue) on securing time for this important debate. more into the national health service budget to cover I declare an interest as one who has in the past undertaken legal fees and insurance premiums. In essence, we will publicly funded work both as a solicitor and as a have public money chasing public money, in a circle that barrister. will not deliver legal justice on a value-for-money basis. The counter-argument is that if Lord Jackson’s I am a member of the Select Committee on Justice, recommendations are implemented in full, there will be which is ably chaired by the right hon. Member for no increase in costs, as success fees and after-the-event Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) and which is insurance premiums will not be recoverable from the currently conducting research into this issue. We have losing party. However, Lord Jackson has recommended received an unprecedented amount of evidence from that damages be increased by 10% to make up for the concerned groups, and I shall voice some of their concerns shortfall in solicitors’ costs, with a 25% cap to be in the limited time available to me. deducted from damages. In the cerebral palsy case that I I believe that the proposals in the Government’s have mentioned, that means that the damages would consultation document are unethical, and will have have increased by £375,000, which would be an alarming long-standing and drastic effects on the make-up of our escalation in public funds paid. legal system. They will effectively pave the way for the I appreciate the difficulties caused to the Government creation of a “market” for the supply of legal assistance, by the escalating drain on the public purse, and I and I believe that the quality of the assistance that is suspect that many measures relate to concern about the available will decrease. As a result, the wealthiest in costs incurred by solicitors who are chasing ambulances society will be OK while those who are not wealthy will or investigating spurious, unviable and unsuccessful not. cases. However, I will say to the Minister, who I know The consultation document notes—with, I believe, has a great deal of expertise in this field, that clinical unintended irony—that negligence cases are now conducted by a small group of “access to justice is the hallmark of a civilised society”. 1131 Legal Aid Reform3 FEBRUARY 2011 Legal Aid Reform 1132

[Mr Elfyn Llwyd] made by my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry). I could just replicate a lot of what she We must do all we can to uphold that principle, but the said, but I wish to concentrate on the issues specific to proposed reforms will cause the legal aid market to be north Wales. driven by cost rather than by the needs of clients and One of the concerns among people in north Wales the quality of advice that they are given. I believe that a and certainly among people in my constituency is that move to fixed fees for all cases will result in suppliers these proposals have the potential to be another attack taking only the least complicated cases, which will mean on services available in rural areas. Only one firm not that the most vulnerable will be more frequently left based on the north Wales coast offers legal aid in my without legal advice. The need to generate profits will constituency. Therefore, inland only one firm offers lead to firms taking on unqualified staff, which in turn such services. The consultation document would result may well lower the quality of service. in that firm giving up that provision, which would be a Gwynedd Law Society has written to me drawing loss to the area, because people would have to travel to attention to a real danger in Gwynedd and Anglesey, gain access to legal advice and legal services. In this age where, for a population of approximately 190,000, only of high fuel costs and so on, there would, thus, be an 10 firms currently provide civil legal aid. There are no added burden before people could even access services large firms in the area. Most of those firms assist clients that might be available on the coast. People in rural in both Welsh and English. areas are concerned about whether the proposals are, The cuts in legal aid will be felt deeply in many areas again, an indication of a Government retreating from of society, but the worst effect will be on the most offering services across the whole of this country, and vulnerable, which is extremely worrying. There is a that is an issue to address. letter in today’s The Times signed by a number of Another specific issue affecting my constituents in experts in family law, among them Stephen Cobb QC, north Wales relates to the fact that they often try to chair of the Family Law Bar Association, and David access services in Welsh. This is a crucial point, because Allison of Resolution. I cannot read the letter into the my constituency is fully bilingual. On the coast, 20% to record, much as I should like to, but I commend it to 25% of people speak Welsh as a first language, but Members. inland the percentage is significantly higher. When people Family lawyers will undoubtedly be giving up in are dealing with real issues of concern and are trying to droves, creating advice deserts, and it is our children access support at crucial times in their lives, their ability who will suffer. I have with me several case studies to access those services in their mother tongue is very showing that under these proposals mothers will be able important. The impact assessment highlighted that issue to do nothing where children are not returned to them in relation to services in cities in England and in south in certain circumstances. I find it very worrying that Wales, but I wish to ensure that the Department is legal aid will be removed for ancillary relief in divorce aware that there is an issue to address in relation to cases. Most pressingly, ancillary matters such as child services provided in Welsh. custody and maintenance will not be dealt with sensibly, One of my concerns relates to the consultation and it is difficult to overestimate the devastating effect document’s reference to the need to provide a direct this will wreak on children caught up in these disputes. telephone line service. I am sure that the hon. Member Indeed, the psychological effects that can be wrought for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) is well aware that, on children when care is not taken in resolving disputes although Welsh speakers would often prefer a service to can be deep and long lasting. The justice system has a be provided in Welsh, when they access services by duty to protect the most vulnerable in our society—that telephone they almost feel that they have to speak in was, of course, one of the founding principles of legal English first. When the service is available in their aid. Who are the most vulnerable in society? I would say locality and they are able to walk into the offices of a that it must be our children. Overwhelmingly, the impact firm that they know and have used in the past, they are of the proposals on the most vulnerable members of able to talk to the solicitors in Welsh. The fact that we our society will be catastrophic. I am talking about are proposing to offer so many legal aid services through people receiving advice on debt, housing and welfare, as the medium of a telephone line raises concerns about well as children standing in the middle of these disputes. the provision of a fully bilingual service in a Welsh We must not allow these changes to be made. In the context. name of decency, ethics and providing decent cover for Since I was elected in May, I have been astounded by those less able to look after themselves, we cannot allow the amount of quasi-legal casework. I find myself dealing them to be made. We must not hold such an integral with cases on which I am not qualified to offer advice or component of our justice system hostage to efficiency guidance. Before coming to the Chamber this afternoon, savings. If we do so, the effects we will see will be brutal. I asked whether my insurance as an MP would be I ask the Minister to respond to one last point. I hope sufficient to cover me when I am asked to offer legal that this consultation will be a real one. The one on advice and guidance. I have a real concern that as we are court closures left me underwhelmed, because it was dealing with these significant changes to the provision deeply unimpressive, flawed and probably pointless. of legal aid services, we are also looking at a significant reduction in the funding of citizens advice bureaux. As 4.56 pm a result, MPs will end up dealing with cases that they are not qualified to deal with in a way that will be very Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): It is a privilege to unsatisfactory to the individuals seeking advice and contribute to this debate. I wish to discuss the impact guidance. That will also be very unsatisfactory for MPs, on rural areas, including my constituency in north who could damage their reputation by offering advice Wales. I also wish to associate myself with the comments and guidance that they are not qualified to give. 1133 Legal Aid Reform3 FEBRUARY 2011 Legal Aid Reform 1134

I recognise that the Government have to deal with the Furthermore, with work carried out on benefits this deficit. I am very pleased that the issue we are debating year, the CAB in North Tyneside is projecting benefit is currently under consultation, but that consultation gains of nearly £900,000. In the light of those figures, it has to be real. I shall certainly contribute to it, as will is easy to imagine the hardship that will be caused by many members of the law profession in my constituency. the loss of funding that to date has made such a My real concern is that if the proposals are not amended difference to constituents, whose only avenue of help is we will end up with a situation in which people in many the legal aid route. parts of rural Britain and rural Wales do not have access to legal services. I am seriously concerned that Rehman Chishti: On page 5.5 of the 2010 Labour some of the most vulnerable people in my constituency manifesto, on which the hon. Lady stood for election, will have to access legal services only by telephone in a her party committed to language that is not their mother tongue. I would find that unacceptable. “find greater savings in legal aid”. How does she intend to satisfy that commitment if she Several hon. Members rose— does not support the changes that the Government are bringing in? Mr Speaker: Order. I remind colleagues that Front-Bench speakers will be called from 5.38 pm or thereabouts, so there is real pressure on time. Mrs Glindon: Our Front-Bench team do not deny that certain efficiencies had to be made. In fact, as was 5.1 pm said previously, they committed money to help during Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab): First, I the recession. congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) on securing the debate. Unlike her, I Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) do not have any experience of giving legal advice or (Lab): The problem with the proposed cuts in legal aid doing legal aid work, but I did benefit from the legal aid is that they are wholly counter-productive. The Government system many years ago when I successfully pursued may save money in the legal aid budget, but they will maintenance payments for my daughter. incur expenditure in other budgets. There are ways to My reason for speaking in the debate is that I was save money in the Ministry of Justice budget, and I will alerted to the Government’s proposed reforms by a touch on them in my speech. constituent of mine who practises as a solicitor in a well-respected law firm in Newcastle upon Tyne. She Mrs Glindon: Mark Almond made it plain to me that spelled out to me just how devastating the cuts would be the work carried out by the citizens advice bureau with for many of my most vulnerable constituents who need the help of legal aid funding definitely helps the most legal aid now or might need it in future. The Government vulnerable—those whose lives are the most chaotic, or claim that they want to be fair, but removing the right to who have literacy and other language problems. Self- help with legal costs from those who need it to obtain representation, as proposed in the Bill, is a non-starter appropriate representation when they are making a legal for that group of constituents. challenge is overtly denying those very people a right to justice. Indeed, the chairman of the Bar Council of In debt advice, private debt advisers are not the England and Wales, Nicholas Green, QC, has described answer. The Government’s own study on private debt the cuts as a “shrinkage of justice”. advice found that more than 80% of those businesses provide incorrect and inappropriate advice, often at a Like many MPs, I have been contacted by a number cost to the client, and that they refer clients to advisers of organisations on this matter, each making a case for who are, in fact, debt collectors. Do the Government retaining the £350 million in the legal aid budget. They really want to impoverish the poorest more by directing were all concerned about the range of areas being taken them down that path? out of scope because of the huge cut in funds being made towards 2014. The Law Society has stated that The most vulnerable would, again, not benefit from “the civil legal aid scope cuts, in social welfare law, appear to be the proposed telephone helpline. In North Tyneside, it targeted against areas of law, which are most relevant to the is estimated that less than 10% of citizens advice bureau poorest and most vulnerable members of society”. legal aid clients would be able to access the system, That is borne out by the information I have received because of literacy or language problems. Such a system from the director of the citizens advice bureaux that could be considered only as an adjunct to the present operate across the borough of North Tyneside, serving system. the constituencies of both North Tyneside and Tynemouth. Through the work of Lord Carter’s review, the Labour He advised me that the cuts to legal aid are a double Government made efforts to find savings, always with whammy, as the Government have just announced the the aim of striving to protect social welfare law. Labour end of North Tyneside CAB’s financial inclusion fund Members believe that savings could be found in other from April this year. So, with cuts to legal aid, North areas to continue that protection. As the director of Tyneside’s CAB will lose two and a half debt specialist North Tyneside CAB told me, although losing jobs and posts and one and a half benefit specialist posts, and expertise is a massive problem, his biggest regret is that the end of the financial inclusion fund means that a the changes to legal aid will fail clients. The coalition further four and a half posts will go. Government need to take heed of this debate and of the Last year, our CAB handled more than 72,000 cases. views expressed by the many experts who are making Staff dealt with cases involving £25 million-worth of the case for the 500,000 people who will lose out as a debt, not including mortgages, and managed to write result of the cuts. The cuts are not fair and definitely off £4.5 million-worth of that debt for local people. not just. 1135 Legal Aid Reform3 FEBRUARY 2011 Legal Aid Reform 1136

5.7 pm constituents may really struggle to manage their casework and prepare for a tribunal hearing without the help of Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con): It is interesting legal aid-funded services. to observe in the remarks made by those on both sides of the House that we are not talking about lawyers. As I welcome the simplified welfare system that the the hon. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) Government are working on. My right hon. Friend the said in her opening remarks, this debate is more about Secretary of State for Work and Pensions has some trained, local, part-time and sometimes voluntary advisers excellent proposals that will be coming through, which I who step in to help the vulnerable in need of advice. hope and believe will make the welfare system much They work in citizens advice bureaux and other simpler. Until then, we must recognise the situation we organisations in the voluntary sector and, in my opinion, are in and acknowledge that errors are made and that although often not lawyers themselves, they are a rare vulnerable people who cannot represent themselves must example of legal provision at a low cost to the public be able to have some representation. purse. Another benefit of having agencies work with those clients is that they can recognise when there is no case. If I accept that reductions are necessary in expenditure we allow individuals to represent themselves entirely, and in the deficit that is, as we know, costing us some will clog up the tribunals. The agencies are very £120 million a day—a point well made by my hon. effective at discouraging people who do not have a case Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry). I am from progressing with it, so only the cases that merit the sorry the right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) sort of attention that the clients are seeking actually get is not in his place, as I am sure he would challenge me it. In Hastings, for instance, the consortia to which I on that and we could have an interesting debate. have referred have not lost an appeal for a client for However, as each of us has only a few minutes to employment support allowance or incapacity benefit speak, I will plough on. The problem with the since last April, which is testament to their right choice proposed cuts is that they will be expensive in the long of clients and their professionalism. Last year they run and that, as set out, they will not do what the provided a service to around 20,000 clients in my area, coalition Government have set out to do, which is to and collectively they have more than £270,000-worth of protect and help the vulnerable. contracts, which represents more than half the advice I represent a town, Hastings, that is wonderful in sector in Hastings. many ways but deprived in others. The unemployment We all know that local government funding is under rate is high at 5.6%, compared with a UK rate of 3.5%, pressure, and a key element of the funding it provides is and we need the support of agencies to advise those on to citizens advice bureaux. Given the cuts to local low incomes and the unemployed. In my town, agencies funding and the proposals for legal aid, I am worried have formed consortia to win social welfare law contracts. about the future viability of the agencies that do so They have vocal and powerful advocates who have been much work and whose advice is critical in a town with to see me. I mention in particular Julie Eason and, from above-average needs. The social welfare contracts account the citizens advice bureau, Dina Christadoulis. They for only 4.5% of the total legal aid bill. The early have convinced me of the need for the service that they intervention that they provide is critical; if the advisers provide. The average cost of what they provide to get involved early, they can stop things escalating and clients is £200 or less. Even if what they do takes three stop individuals getting to the stage where they might times as long, that is the cost—it is really good value. lose their houses. We need to make cuts, but that area of the front line is not the place for them. We should not be taking social I urge Ministers to consider the costs and consequences welfare out of scope. of the proposed changes to legal aid. We need to find alternative sources of funding to support the agencies if they are no longer to receive funds from that source. I Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): I find myself in associate myself with the argument made by other agreement with what the hon. Lady is saying. If legal Members that, unless we find alternative funding, those aid is to be withdrawn as a source of funding for exactly of us who, like me, are not lawyers will have to train up the kind of work that she describes, does she accept that pretty quickly because of the size of casework that we the Government really must find an alternative source will receive. elsewhere? 5.13 pm Amber Rudd: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) for that comment. I am speaking up on behalf of the (Lab): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for agencies in Hastings precisely because I value the work Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) on bringing forward that they do in helping the vulnerable there. I also make this important topic for debate. For as long as I have the point, as several Members have done, that removing worked in the community, legally aided lawyers and law the funding is not efficient for costs. He is absolutely centres have often been at the forefront of the fight for correct that we need to find another source of funding justice for marginalised groups who could not otherwise in order to continue to protect those services. have made their voices heard. Those were often groups The advice from those agencies is crucial to the of people who were not necessarily getting help from clients, who in many cases cannot represent themselves. their trade union, their councillors or their MP, because The agency I spoke with had kept records that showed lawyers can often pinpoint issues, because of the cases clearly that 56% of its clients have long-term illness or coming to them, before they come to the attention of disability and that 68% have long-term mental health politicians. Because I know that so many legally aided problems. I am worried that some of my most vulnerable lawyers and practitioners who work in citizens advice 1137 Legal Aid Reform3 FEBRUARY 2011 Legal Aid Reform 1138 bureaux and law centres are often extraordinarily dedicated, over the years: they both have high levels of deprivation. I deprecate the tendency of Governments of all Does she agree that, if we take away access to organisations colours—my Government were just as bad—to talk such as Kirkby Unemployed Centre, Merseyside Welfare about legal aid just in terms of the money going to Rights and Knowsley citizens advice bureau, those lawyers. On the tendency to slide into talking about fat levels of deprivation—in her constituency and in mine—will cat lawyers, I can say with confidence that, since the go up? Carter reforms, nobody has made a fortune in legal aid law practice. [HON.MEMBERS: “Hear, hear!”] I can hear Ms Abbott: There is no question but that they will go hon. Members from both sides supporting me on that up, because we are talking not about frivolity, serial point. litigants or people who litigate for fun, but about people who have to go to law to obtain the basic rights and Rehman Chishti: Prior to becoming a Member, I was fairness that we in the Chamber take for granted. On a criminal barrister for a number of years, and, to the idea of people in communities in the east end of confirm what the hon. Lady says, I must say that as a London picking up a phone, Ministers are not being barrister at Crown court one would earn £40 for a realistic. They must not understand what happens in mention and could be there all day. The idea that some parts of the country if they think that going on barristers or lawyers are fat cats is completely wrong, the phone is a substitute for dealing with somebody and I fully support what she says. who is skilled, looks a person in the eye, can see that they are nervous, knows how to put them at ease and Ms Abbott: But sadly, when Governments of all can really draw from them the issue at the heart of their colours consider legal aid, they seem to zero in on the problems. lawyers and the money that they make, rather than the Opposition Members understand the need to consider millions of people whom they help. the whole administration of justice budget, and there is I repeat what Opposition Members have said about a lot to be said for encouraging people with marital the potential of the reforms to undermine totally the disputes to try mediation first, rather than going to law. law centre movement. Nobody who has seen people Indeed, I have never heard of a divorce case in which queuing outside their law centre for help could support tempers were sweetened by the involvement of lawyers. any action by any Government which undermined that I do not reject out of hand the notion of encouraging movement. I must add, however, that the legal aid people in marital disputes to go to mediation, but there reforms will also undermine the practice of many high are other ways of saving money in the Ministry of street solicitors, who are often close to and help their Justice budget, notably the organisation of the courts. community. A disproportionate number of them are Hundreds of thousands of pounds are wasted every black and minority ethnic solicitors, and I do not believe year when cases collapse because people do not turn up that the Government have fully considered how the and things have not been organised properly. Let us reforms will undermine the structure for providing the consider saving money through the organisation of the legal advice, help and support on which communities courts before considering these ill-thought-out cuts in rely. legal aid. Government Members have referred to the NHS. It is better to identify liability earlier and save all Earlier, a Member said that one reason why people the costs in contesting cases where people know perfectly have recourse to lawyers is the inefficiency of the well that in the end they will have to settle in some form Department for Work and Pensions, to which I should or fashion. add the inefficiencies of local councils and the immigration service and the inefficiencies and, sometimes, unfairness It is not enough for Ministers to say, “Labour’s spent of education authorities. But what are we to do? We all the money and that is why we’re doing this.” They acknowledge the systemic inefficiencies in many parts have to understand that if we are serious about a big of the public sector, but are we going to leave tens of society and the role of Government, we have to ensure thousands of people to suffer injustice and unfairness that the most deprived and marginalised communities in order to save money in the short term on the legal aid have minimal protection, and part of that, in my mind, budget? is access to justice and the rule of law. I sincerely hope, on behalf of my constituents and Hackney law centre, I also want to address the limits of phone advice. which is a tremendous organisation, that this is a genuine Talking down a phone might be all well and good for consultation and that Ministers will listen to some of people in wealthier areas, but in the inner city too many the things that they hear in this Chamber this afternoon. people do not have English as their first language, and if English is their first language they might be inarticulate, 5.21 pm afraid and inhibited. In 20 years as a Member, I have had to advise hundreds of thousands of people. Often, Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): I echo they come in and mumble about some issue or other, the comments of the hon. Member for Hackney North and only after carefully questioning them, looking them and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) in her very proper in the eye and showing them my sympathy do they tell analysis of the issue. This is not about lawyers; it is me their real problem. If we submit such people to about access to justice. I am glad to see the Minister talking down a phone, we will find that their issues are agreeing with those sentiments in the sense that the completely lost. They will put the phone down, never Government are not indulging in character assassination having explained what they really wanted to talk about. as regards practitioners in law. There have been some excellent speeches. I pay tribute Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): My hon. to the hon. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) Friend’s constituency and mine are different in many for getting this debate the time that it deserves. I was ways, but one similarity has been commented on repeatedly happy to support her in her bid. I wish there were more 1139 Legal Aid Reform3 FEBRUARY 2011 Legal Aid Reform 1140

[Mr Robert Buckland] of their inquisitorial process. We must focus on comparisons with other common law countries. The simple fact is time, as five minutes can hardly do the subject justice. It that we litigate more in England and Wales. As I said, I was a pleasure for me to take part in the Westminster make no apology for the fact that this country brings Hall debate sponsored by the hon. Member for Westminster more prosecutions than any other country. That issue North (Ms Buck), who took part earlier. I do not should be dealt with in other debates. It is a causal issue, propose to reiterate the points that I made in that rather than being about the symptoms that legal aid has debate. to deal with. I put on record my thanks to the Department for On domestic violence, my plea to the Minister is that having answered some of the questions that I have been we work hard on getting the definition right. I suggest tabling about the breakdown of the costs of civil legal that it is not right in the Green Paper. We should be aid for the last year for which figures were available— considering courses of conduct rather than individual 2008-2009. The figure of £24.7 million in legal help for incidents. I would be happy to work with him on that welfare benefit cases, as alluded to by my hon. Friend matter. the Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry), is startling, and we should pay close attention to it. There is no 5.26 pm doubt, as other Members have said, that there are Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): I join in the serious deficiencies in the decision-making processes as congratulations to my neighbour, my hon. Friend the regards benefit entitlements. I am utterly convinced that Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) on securing that large amount of money could have been saved if this debate on an issue that will adversely affect so many that system were more sound. I urge the Minister to of our constituents. work as closely as he can with the Department for Work and Pensions to ensure that it starts to take a share of Before Christmas, a woman came into my surgery in the burden of the cost of representation. desperation. She was trying to extricate herself from a violent relationship. As is normal with such relationships, John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): Will although she is now safe, her ex-partner continues to the hon. Gentleman give way? manipulate her and to exert his power by agreeing to things and then going back on his word. Even though she earns only about £20,000, she had been turned Mr Buckland: I am sorry, but I cannot take interventions down for legal aid and was in a terrible situation. She on this occasion because I want to ensure that other was paying for a solicitor, but it had reached a point speakers have their say. As I said, so much to talk about, where she could not ask them to do anything else so little time. because she could not afford to pay them. As an ordinary Let me pray in aid Wiltshire law centre in my constituency, person, she was terrified of running up debt, so she which carries out debt, welfare and housing work. To made sure that she paid all her bills immediately, even put it bluntly, it is set to lose the vast majority of its though that meant that she frequently did not have income if these proposals are implemented. May I put enough money to be able to eat. Of course, celebrating in a plea to the Minister to work as hard as he can with Christmas was out of the question. If the Government all agencies of Government to ensure that places like go ahead with their plan to reduce civil legal aid, my Wiltshire law centre get some form of block funding to surgery will be full of people like that. ensure that its valuable work continues? It is as fundamental Bolton citizens advice bureau sent me a snapshot of as that. I am worried that if we lose that service, my an ordinary day at its drop-in service. On 11 January, its constituents will have to travel a very long distance to social welfare law drop-in service was open for six get legal aid, because most private firms in Swindon hours. Sixty-three new clients walked in off the street. now do not offer the services offered by the law centre. That does not include the 31 people who went in for I have spoken in the past about special educational return appointments. If the proposals to reform legal needs and education law. I reiterate my plea to the aid had been implemented and if the Citizens Advice Minister to ensure that when the education Green Paper financial inclusion fund had been withdrawn, it would is published in March the forms of alternative dispute have been able to deal with only five or six of those resolution, whether it be mediation or other forms of people. ADR, are properly explored and set out so that the The stories of many of those people are heartbreaking need for legal representation in those cases becomes a and many of their cases involved an element of benefits, thing of the past. with claims being refused, delayed or wrongly calculated. I have drilled down as far as I can to find out why this Many of them did not have enough money to feed country spends more per head on legal aid than other themselves or their children, such as the lone parent country. The National Audit Office paper on the with three children who was receiving only £47.50 a procurement of legal aid observed that during its control week, or the lone father who had received no benefit for period in the latter part of last decade, England and his 18-month-old and was told he would have to wait Wales prosecuted more than a million more people than another four weeks for any money. A number of them any comparator country. We have to look at why we were in imminent risk of losing their homes because of spend a lot on legal aid. I do not think that it is a failed businesses. Some had employment issues and problem. I think it shows that we take prosecution others had immigration issues. Whatever the issue, the seriously. The only real comparison we can make is with common thread was that they went to Citizens Advice other common law countries, and they do not prosecute because they had nowhere else to go. They could not as many cases as England and Wales. Comparisons afford to buy legal support, unlike the people who were with France are utterly irrelevant. The French spend pursuing them. Their cases involved debt, wages that five times more on the judicial system than us because had not been paid and the refusal to pay benefits. 1141 Legal Aid Reform3 FEBRUARY 2011 Legal Aid Reform 1142

Surely, it is a mark of a civilised society that all set and many of the cuts will be beginning to bite. That people have access to legal justice. Surely, in 2011 we is too late for the vulnerable people Hossacks was going should not be returning to olden days when the poor to represent. simply had to accept what the rich and powerful did to them. Of course, the equality impact assessment states Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. Is the that females and black or minority ethnic people will be hon. Gentleman talking about a live case? more adversely affected, and it cannot rule out a disproportionate effect on the disabled. The Government Mr Binley: No, I am not, because it has been stopped do not appear to be taking action to redress that. by the LSC. My hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield talked I simply want the Minister to look into the matter to about the financial cost of removing legal aid, but what see how many more vulnerable people are being affected about the other costs? What will happen to the lone by decisions taken by the LSC that are premature given father who is getting no benefit? Will his child go into the debate that is currently going on. care? What will happen to the person who loses their house? Will they go into emergency accommodation Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): Will the hon. and have to be rehoused by the state? What about the Gentleman give way? long-term trauma of children caught up in the problems? Will they then fail in school and in their future life? The Mr Binley: I really do not have the time. Government’s proposal is wrong, morally, ethically and I ask the Minister to come back to me on this matter, financially. because it raises a considerable concern that affects Citizens advice bureaux and community law centres many people throughout the country. If the LSC is are the Government’s big society in action—a combination acting prematurely, it should be stopped until the debate of volunteers and professionals working in partnership is over and the consultation is finished. to provide a service for their communities. It is often the I have finished within the time you wished, Mr Deputy only service for those who are the most disadvantaged. Speaker. Like every other voluntary group, however, the service costs. Even if projects are run entirely by volunteers, Several hon. Members rose— they still need funding for training and resources, premises and running costs. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I call Karl I will not argue that legal aid needs no reform, but the Turner, who can take two minutes. You have to sit down proposed reform is supported by no one. Even the most at 5.35 pm, please. commercial firm of solicitors says that it will have a detrimental effect on the most vulnerable in society. I say to the Government, please do not send us back to 5.33 pm the days when justice was just for the rich and the Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab): Thank privileged. I plead with them to rethink their proposals. you very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. I start by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield 5.30 pm (Yvonne Fovargue) on securing the debate. In the two minutes that I have, I shall concentrate on Mr Brian Binley (Northampton South) (Con): I had the citizens advice bureau in my area. I met the chief hoped to speak for about 25 minutes, but I find that I executive, Lesley Thornley, on Tuesday, and she highlighted have to cut my speech down to four minutes, so I shall the real problems that she thinks the CAB will suffer be to the point and abrupt. from. There seems to be a triple whammy. First, the I wish to make a plea to the Minister about lawyers financial inclusion fund will be gone. Some 50% of the who fight against corporate, local government and about advice that the CAB in my area provides is debt Government bodies that are under serious pressure to management advice, and she is concerned about what make serious cuts and sometimes get things wrong to will happen to the people affected as a result of that cut. the detriment of the most vulnerable in our communities. Secondly, there are the real-terms cuts to legal aid, and I wish to set out a particular case to the Minister, thirdly there are the cuts to the local authority, which because I believe that the Legal Services Commission is she tells me will lead to 42% cuts to her CAB. She already taking action to cut expenditure sizeably, but highlighted the fact that the Birmingham CAB is closing should not be doing it in quite the way that it is. as a result of cuts, and she is very worried that the CAB I wish to talk about a company called Hossacks in my area will also close. Solicitors, which is one of the 78 legal companies that I have spoken on numerous occasions to solicitors in fight on behalf of community services. It has done a my area, including very recently to Mr Waddington of tremendous job—I have been on the wrong end of it on Williamsons solicitors. He tells me that this issue is occasions in the past. However, in 2010 the LSC, which about access to justice. Publicly funded lawyers do not had granted a contract to Hossacks to fight a legal go into the job to earn big sums of money, just as matter, said that it had issued the contract in error. The teachers do not go into teaching to do so. Will the company disputed that fact on the grounds that it had Minister ensure that he looks very seriously at the entered into a binding legal contract with the LSC. The proposals? Vulnerable people will suffer as a consequence LSC replied on 6 January this year, terminating the of the Government’s programme. contract in its entirety. The company appealed and was told that the appeal would be heard within two weeks. It Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. I will has now been told that it will not be heard until the end ask that your short speech does not count against you in of March, by which time many of the budgets will be relation to the number of times that you have spoken. 1143 Legal Aid Reform3 FEBRUARY 2011 Legal Aid Reform 1144

5.35 pm Mr Slaughter: Absolutely. I pay tribute to the Mary Ward centre, which I visited recently with Lord Bach, Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): I congratulate and to many other law centres around the country that my hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield (Yvonne do such sterling work. Fovargue) on securing this debate, which has been an excellent example of Back-Bench debates focusing on The cuts to law centres and citizens advice bureaux an issue that is causing great concern in constituencies come alongside cuts to the financial inclusion fund and around the country. We have heard many good speeches local authority funding. Hammersmith and Fulham from both sides of the House. community law centre, where I have been a member of the management board for 20 years, has lost all its local It is appropriate that Members on both sides of the authority funding, and will, if the Government’s equality House speak in defence of legal aid, because it was on impact assessment is to be believed, lose 90% of its the recommendation of a Committee headed by a Legal Services Commission funding. Most law centres Conservative peer Lord Rushcliffe that legal aid was around the country and many citizens advice bureaux first proposed in 1943, and it was a Labour Government and private firms will be forced to close. Remaining and a Labour Attorney-General, Sir Hartley Shawcross, citizens advice bureaux will find their ability to provide who piloted the Legal Aid and Advice Act 1949 through services considerably diminished, particularly those in Parliament. The Secretary of State for Justice says that areas of greatest deprivation. The knowledge, talented he wishes to return to the original intent of legal aid, advisers and high-quality service provided at far below but the original intent of legal aid is captured in paragraph the market are irreplaceable. 40 of Magna Carta: “To no one will we sell, to no one deny or delay right or The second point is that the most vulnerable will be justice.” hurt at a time of great economic turmoil. Let us consider the people served by those organisations I have just Those were the very words that Sir Hartley Shawcross discussed. The Ministry itself estimates that 85% of had in mind when he said on Second Reading of the legal representation and 80% of legal help is for individuals 1949 Act: within the bottom income quintile. People with mental “It is a Bill which will open the doors of the courts freely to all health problems and other disabilities experience much persons who may wish to avail themselves of British justice higher rates of unemployment, debt, homelessness and without regard to the question of their wealth or ability to discrimination and will therefore be disproportionately pay.”—[Official Report, 15 December 1948; Vol. 459, c. 1221.] affected. The disabled are twice as likely to live in The Government’s Green Paper presents their plans as poverty as the non-disabled. According to Mind, many a return to the founding intent of legal aid, but they are callers are profoundly distressed and unable to explain in fact the exact opposite. They will remove the average their problems clearly. They find it traumatic to discuss person’s ability to seek justice. those problems with a stranger over the phone and need I wish to focus on the cuts that will cause most face-to-face contact. damage—those to social welfare legal aid—but that is Thirdly, the Government overstate the ability of people not to say that there are no problems with other aspects to navigate the legal system without advice or guidance. of the Government’s proposals. The narrow definition The Green Paper misrepresents the reality of tribunals, of domestic violence cases will leave women and children and ignores the fact that the law is ever changing and vulnerable and less able to seek help; the failure sufficiently highly complex. Without specialist advice, many claimants to address the costs of very high-cost criminal cases is a would be unable to prepare a case for first-tier, let alone mistake and a missed opportunity; and taking clinical upper tribunals. Representation before court and in negligence out of scope, alongside proposed changes to court streamlines the legal system and makes it more civil litigation funding, will end the ability of many efficient. These cuts will deepen the existing inequalities people to challenge negligence and malpractice. However, of arms and lead to injustice—and also to great inefficiency it is the cuts to social welfare legal aid that we find most in the civil legal system. Without representation, appellants unacceptable. They will result in the complete collapse are more likely to request an adjournment, get things of the social welfare advisory sector, and do so, ironically, wrong, achieve less fair outcomes and therefore go on at huge cost to the state. to appeal—all of which cause delays and costs. In the short time that I have, let me give five reasons Fourthly, the alternatives suggested by the Government why those cuts are wrong. First, the advisory sector will are inappropriate or inadequate. The Minister says that all but disappear. The Government propose to eliminate people should seek advice from tribunals, respondent almost all legal aid for social welfare, including legal aid organisations themselves or the pro bono sector. The for debt, housing, education, welfare, employment and first two options have been greeted with incredulity. As immigration cases. They will cut funding for many for the last, the Free Representation Unit—the largest advisory services, such as citizens advice bureaux and pro bono organisation in the UK—said in response to law centres. the Green Paper that it “gives a misleading impression. It wrongly uses the role of FRU Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): Is my Friend to support its conclusions. The work that FRU does can…be no aware that the High Court this week found in favour of part of the justification for withdrawing Legal Help in this area. the Mary Ward centre and other voluntary organisations FRU is in no position to replace the invaluable work of publicly that were threatened with a huge cut by London councils funded solicitors, law centres and Citizens’ Advice Bureaux in giving initial advice.” on the ground that inadequate equality assessments were made in advance of the proposed cuts? That is a That is right. The pro bono sector cannot exist in its taster of what is to come if the Government try to put current form without the infrastructure of the advisory those cuts through. sector. 1145 Legal Aid Reform3 FEBRUARY 2011 Legal Aid Reform 1146

The fifth and final reason why these cuts are wrong is reform proposals. I should say at the outset that the that the Government’s sums do not add up. People who Government strongly agree with the views expressed by cannot resolve their problems often accumulate more many Members today that access to justice is a hallmark problems and end up in cycles of decline, including of a civilised society, and that the provision of legal aid, social exclusion, eviction, unemployment, stress and in a targeted, focused and sustainable way, is a key part depression, relationship and family breakdown. Children of ensuring appropriate access to justice. So I say to the whose families are experiencing social problems are hon. Members for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd), more likely to become involved in truancy, exclusion for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) and offending. Early resolution saves time and money and for Bolton West (Julie Hilling) that our aim is to in identifying meritorious cases to take to court and direct our scarce resources towards helping the most preparing clients appropriately, and settling out of court vulnerable. where possible. Once someone is already homeless it As hon. Members will know, the Government have costs the state tens of thousands of pounds to get them pledged to reduce the budget deficit to deal with the out of that situation. Just at first-tier tribunal stage, acute financial crisis and encourage economic recovery. Government figures show that had the proposed cuts The Department has to reduce its budget by £2 billion been in place last year, more than 51,000 cases that were by 2014-15, and legal aid, being one of just three big successful would not have been, due solely to a lack of areas of spending in the Ministry of Justice, needs to advice and representation. make a substantial contribution of £350 million to that The Green Paper is filled with inaccuracy, imprecision reduction. However, the need to make savings gives us and outright fallacy. The sums do not add up, and it will the impetus and urgency for change and provides us lead to the disastrous loss of many of the CABs and law with the opportunity radically to reform a system that, centres that are—to quote the excellent article by the in many cases, needed reform anyway. To that extent, I hon. Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs agree with the right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) Grant) in today’s Guardian—the “last line of defence” that our policy cannot simply be determined by how we against catastrophe for the tens of thousands of people deal with the deficit. they help every year. In June, we announced that we would be taking a Yesterday, someone who has spent much of their fundamental look at the legal aid system. Our aim was professional life providing legal assistance to those who then, and remains now, to create a stable and sustainable cannot afford it asked me why no one has yet put this system that ensures access to public funding in those question in terms of the rule of law. A civilised society is cases that really require it, the protection of the most one that encourages its decisions to be challenged and vulnerable in our society and the efficient performance that understands that no decision can be beyond reproach. of our justice system. This also reflects the aim of The legal aid system ensures that citizens can seek and creating a more efficient legal aid system as set out in gain justice, and that their lives are not placed into the coalition Government document. Since the modern turmoil simply because they lack the means to challenge legal aid scheme was established in 1949, its scope has the decisions of large public and private corporations. been widened far beyond what was originally intended. That is the question that should haunt anyone who By 1999, legal aid funding was available for virtually seeks to make such devastating cuts to a service that every type of issue, including some that should not rightly makes us proud. require any legal expertise to resolve. As for those outside this Chamber who have dedicated themselves to helping the most vulnerable navigate an Mrs Grant: Will the Minister give way? often bewildering legal system, I join many of my colleagues in thanking them for all that they do for our Mr Djanogly: I would love to give way, but with so country. They are the embodiment of the kind of civil many points having been made, I cannot. I apologise. society in which Labour has believed for so long. Many I believe that that has too often encouraged people to give their time for free. Others have accrued decades of bring their problems before the courts even where the valuable experience, with unique insight into the courts are not best placed to provide the best solutions, communities they serve, and I encourage them to make and discouraged them from seeking simpler, more their voices heard. If their voices are not heard now, appropriate remedies. I would like to take this opportunity and if the stories of those whom they help are not to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone heard, this Government intend to silence them forever. and The Weald (Mrs Grant) on her excellent article this They should be assured that we will stand alongside afternoon. them, our voices will join with theirs, and together we Indeed, the scheme now costs more than £2 billion a will resist these acts of sheer vandalism. year, making it one of the most generous schemes in the world, even taking jurisdictional differences into account. 5.44 pm We need to understand that, even after the proposed reforms, we are still going to have one of the most The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice expensive schemes in the world. The previous Government (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): I congratulate the hon. Member made many attempts to reform legal aid, conducting for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) on securing this more than 30 consultations since 2006, but the changes important debate, in which we have heard many excellent were of a piecemeal nature and failed to address the contributions. underlying problems. Rather than continue with this It has been helpful to hear first-hand from those who “cut and come again” approach, we have gone back to have contributed today, but before responding to some basic principles to make choices about which issues are of the specific issues raised, of which there were many, I of sufficient priority to justify the use of public funds, would like to reiterate the rationale and context of the subject to people’s means and the merits of the case. 1147 Legal Aid Reform3 FEBRUARY 2011 Legal Aid Reform 1148

[Mr Djanogly] make it clear that we are not proposing any changes to the scope of criminal legal aid, and that legal aid will The Opposition’s general position on legal aid is also still routinely be available in civil and family cases staggeringly inconsistent and opportunistic. Labour in which people’s life or liberty is at stake, or in which a appears to be backing down on its commitment to person is at risk of serious physical harm or immediate support legal aid reform. In an article on Left Foot loss of their home. For example, I can confirm to the Forward, the shadow justice Minister, the hon. Member hon. Member for Westminster North (Ms Buck) that for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter), wrote: we plan to retain legal aid for asylum cases, but not for “It is nonsensical…to cut these long established public services.” immigration cases, except when the person is in detention. The article seems to reveal a split between the shadow Legal aid will also be retained for debt and housing Justice team and its party leader, who said at a recent matters when someone’s home is at immediate risk, and press conference that with regard to the reductions in for mental health cases. It will still be provided when legal aid people face intervention from the state in their family “Labour has shown it is ready to make difficult cuts which we affairs that could result in their children being taken believe are necessary for the long term health of our economy.” into care, and for cases involving domestic violence, Its leader was, of course, reiterating the promise made child abduction or forced marriage. We also propose in the 2010 Labour manifesto: that legal aid should remain available for cases in which people seek to hold the state to account by judicial “We will find greater savings in legal aid”. review for the most serious claims against public authorities. It also contradicts the statement of the right hon. We shall also keep it for cases involving discrimination Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan) offering support to that are currently in scope, and for community care the Government when the reforms were announced last cases where the recipients are often very elderly and year. He said: vulnerable. “Let me be clear: had we been in government today, we, too, Many hon. Members raised the question of telephone would have been announcing savings to the legal aid budget. That advice. Although that will provide a gateway, it will not is a reality that we all have to acknowledge.”—[Official Report, 15 November 2010; Vol. 518, c. 663.] stop face-to-face advice being given when that is appropriate. It will facilitate the more effective sourcing of services and help the disabled. People will be able to ask to be Mr Slaughter Will the Minister give way? called back, as is currently the case, so the cost would be low. I should like to tell my hon. Friend the Member for Mr Djanogly: I think I do have to give way on this Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) that we believe the telephone one. advice will assist people in rural areas, and that language translation will be catered for, particularly for Welsh Mr Slaughter: I think the Minister does, now that he speakers. The service currently has a satisfaction rating has read out the central office briefing. I urge him either of more than 90%, so we see it as a very good service. to read the shadow Lord Chancellor’s article in the We recognise that there will be some cases, even Solicitors Journal today, or even my speech in Westminster within the areas of law that we propose to remove from Hall before Christmas, which he would have heard had scope, that international or domestic law will require to he turned up for it. If he does, he will see exactly where be funded by the taxpayer, or inquest cases where there we would make the cuts and that we have made it clear is a significant wider public interest in funding legal throughout that we would not cut essential social welfare representation. We therefore propose a new exceptional legal aid. funding scheme for excluded cases. We also consider that the long-drawn-out, acrimonious nature of court Mr Djanogly: I am pleased to hear some clarification proceedings too often exacerbates disputes rather than of what the Opposition are not going to do; perhaps the solve them. Alternatives often exist that are not only hon. Gentleman will come back to the House to tell us cheaper than rushing to court but faster and less contentious. what they are going to do, so that we can take a view on So we will continue to provide funding for family mediation, where they are coming from on this issue, because they to encourage people to use this more effective method have been thoroughly unimpressive to date. to resolve issues between themselves, rather than using up precious taxpayers’ money and the courts’ time. Jeremy Corbyn: Will the Minister give way? Of course, mediation is only one alternative to court proceedings. Work is going on across government to Mr Djanogly: No, I will not. change our litigation culture and encourage alternative The proposals in our consultation paper take into and less acrimonious dispute resolution. For example, account the importance of the issue at stake, the litigant’s the Government are currently seeking views on measures ability to present their own case, the availability of to achieve more early resolution of workplace disputes alternative sources of funding and alternative routes to through ACAS conciliation, so that all parties have a resolving the issue, as well as our domestic and international chance to resolve their own problems in a way that is legal obligations. I should also point out that the fair and equitable for both sides, without having to go consultation is still open, and that I am therefore here to to an employment tribunal. listen to hon. Members’ views rather than to agree or Likewise, the Department for Education is looking disagree with any particular view. into involving parents in early discussions and decisions We propose to focus financial support, and legal about the special educational needs support that they advice and representation, on those who need it most. need, so that they do not have to battle through the The proposed reforms involve significant change to the tribunal process. I think it was the hon. Member for scope of legal aid funding. Having said that, I should Westminster North who said that 82% of appellants in 1149 Legal Aid Reform3 FEBRUARY 2011 Legal Aid Reform 1150

SEN matters succeeded in their appeals. I should point The hon. Members for Makerfield and for Westminster out to her, however, that just 18% of parents are currently North, my hon. Friend the Member for Hastings and legally represented in those appeals. Rye and others spoke about welfare benefits. We recognise On eligibility, we are not changing the criminal means- that some people find publicly funded legal advice and testing introduced by the previous Government. In civil advice on welfare benefit matters helpful. However, the cases, however, we believe that those able to pay for or user-friendly nature of the tribunal means that appellants contribute to the costs of their case should do so. This can generally present their case without assistance. More will help to ensure continued access to public funding, particularly, the issues raised are normally ones that in those cases that really require it, for those who have should be dealt with by general advice, not legal aid. little or no funds of their own. The consultation paper When I visited a law centre recently, I was shocked to therefore includes the proposal that all clients with hear that local benefits officers were sending people to £1,000 or more of disposable capital should make a the law centre for advice on what benefits they could minimum £100 contribution to their legal costs, and claim. This is a bizarre situation, and it is not going to that the capital of any prospective legal aid clients is be solved by throwing legal aid money at the problem. taken into account when considering eligibility. We believe that this will encourage a greater sense of personal Several hon. Members rose— responsibility by giving clients a greater financial interest in the conduct of their case, as well as helping to Mr Djanogly: I am afraid to have to tell hon. Members discourage unnecessary litigation at taxpayers’ expense. that I have run out of time. Many Members, including the hon. Members for This debate will continue, as will the consultation. I Makerfield, for Westminster North, for Kingston upon can honestly say that we are looking forward to receiving Hull East (Karl Turner) and for North Tyneside the consultation responses of Members and all other (Mrs Glindon), the right hon. Member for Exeter and respondees. my hon. Friends the Members for Hastings and Rye (Amber Rudd) and for South Swindon (Mr Buckland), made points about the highly valued not-for-profit sector. 5.58 pm Having frequently met the CAB, Shelter and other Yvonne Fovargue: I thank all the Members who voluntary groups, I appreciate that the not-for-profit contributed to the debate. Some good and passionate sector has particular concerns, but the important point points were made on both sides of the argument. Legal is that this issue goes way beyond legal aid. Indeed, aid has been called the fourth pillar of the welfare state, funding from legal aid represents a minority of many and I urge the Minister to listen and take on board CABs’ income—we believe only about 15% of CABs’ some of the points that have been made, and not to cut income comes from legal aid—and many do not receive into the legal aid budget so deeply that the whole any legal aid income at all; the three CABs in my building collapses, leaving Members to pick up the constituency receive no legal aid money, for example. pieces in their surgeries. That is because the basic role of CABs is to give general advice, not necessarily legal aid advice, as they have Question put and agreed to. been allowed to do only for the past 11 years. The Resolved, problem, however, for those that do give legal advice is That this House has considered the matter of the reform of that legal aid funding will often merge with other funding legal aid. streams. CABs are funded mainly by local councils and the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): On a point of order, centrally, and removing one stream could have a knock-on Mr Deputy Speaker. The Independent Parliamentary effect, but that does not make it wrong for us to be Standards Authority, whose leadership heads the most unwilling to pay legal aid for general advice. incompetent quango in the country, has today published The reality is that the funding streams have been in a “name and shame” of Members of Parliament who, conflict for years, and effort and services have been in its mind, have made claims to which they were not duplicated and resources wasted, although the previous entitled. Among those names is mine, but I have to tell Government never sorted this out while their money the House that the payment was made to me in full on machine was pumping away. We have recognised this 13 December. IPSA knew that. Admittedly, it took two problem, and I am pleased to be able to say that we are months to pay, but it acknowledged that the claim was working closely with the Cabinet Office-based Office legitimate and it was paid. However, my name appears for Civil Society, which will look at this important issue in a list of those who had a claim refused. What action across Government. To answer a question from my hon. can be taken by Members who have been maligned—one Friend the Member for Carshalton and Wallington could argue libelled and slandered—by this incompetent (Tom Brake), I should say that transitional funding may organisation? be available. We certainly see an important role for not-for-profit Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I believe that organisations in the advice sector. The coalition Government the hon. Gentleman is a member of the Speaker’s Panel support such organisations, including CABs, and as my on IPSA, and I am almost tempted to ask him to refer hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker) this matter to himself, but I will not do that. He knows said, we hope that local government will share our view that the matter that he has raised is not a procedural that they play an integral part in civil society. I am also point for the Chair, but he has put his views on the happy to look at the issue raised by my hon. Friend the record and he knows that there are other ways of taking Member for Northampton South (Mr Binley). the matter further. 1151 3 FEBRUARY 2011 STV 1152

STV be enhanced in the nations. The Secretary of State decided to overlook that advice and deny STV independent Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House status. do now adjourn.—(Mr Dunne.) STV Productions currently supports 305 full-time equivalent jobs. The company’s combined direct, supplier 6pm and income impacts stand at £15.3 million of gross value added in the Scottish economy. If STV Productions Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): I am grateful maintains its current market share in 2016, its economic for the chance to speak about an issue that is of great impact will increase to 317 jobs and £15.9 million in importance to the city of Glasgow and to Scotland. The GVA. challenge of jobs and growth will be a defining political issue in the coming year. People want to know where Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): I congratulate new jobs and future prosperity will come from. Those in my hon. Friend on securing this important debate on the private sector, who must create the jobs and wealth Scottish television. It is a shame that we could not have that Britain needs, will want to know whether everything a motion of no confidence in the Government right that could be done is being done to support their efforts. now, given that there is nobody on the Government They will want to know whether our Government are Benches, but I know that that is not the way procedure making the right choices on jobs and growth, and the works. My hon. Friend is eloquently outlining STV’s right choices for the future of Britain. contribution to the economy. Independent producer One such company already asking those questions is status would allow that contribution to grow even further, STV Productions in my constituency. STV Productions leading not just to STV’s growth, but to the growth of is one of the few businesses of scale in the Scottish the entire production sector in Scotland, helping it to television production sector. It is a hugely important branch out from its hub in Glasgow to many other part of the Scottish creative industries cluster and a key parts, including my constituency. employer in Glasgow’s thriving media hub on the banks of the River Clyde. The growth of STV Productions can Anas Sarwar: I thank my hon. Friend for staying for help to secure and develop a thriving, sustainable television the debate. I agree wholeheartedly with his comments. production sector in Glasgow and throughout Scotland, Independent status would not only benefit STV, create delivering significant economic, social and cultural benefits. jobs in the company and create growth in the city of The growth of STV Productions will also secure and Glasgow, but help other independent production companies create much-needed private sector jobs. in Glasgow and throughout Scotland to branch out in many of the sectors involved. The Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development says that the impact of Government spending plans will Had STV Productions gained independent status, its mean a 200,000 drop in employment this year. Under competitiveness would have increased in the BBC market those headlines are larger numbers of job losses. and other domestic and international markets. By 2016, PricewaterhouseCoopers calculates that public sector such an increase in competitiveness could have increased cuts will lead directly to around 500,000 private sector its economic impact by 30% to 396 jobs and £19.8 million job losses over the spending review period. The CIPD in gross value added. However, as a result of the Secretary has previously said that 1.6 million jobs could be lost, of State’s decision, the economic impact of STV with the increase in VAT estimated to cost 250,000 jobs. Productions in 2016 is expected to be £3.9 million less Jobs will be created in the recovery, but the challenge to than it could have been. replace all the jobs lost through public spending cuts, as The provision of 79 full-time equivalent jobs would well as those lost as a result of the unemployment have been great in itself, but as was pointed out by my remaining after the global banking crisis and the impact hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South (Ian of VAT, will be huge. The jobs that Britain needs can be Murray), independent status for STV Productions would created only by successful and growing private companies. also have had an effect on the economic impact of the They need the confidence and certainty that will justify wider production sector in Scotland. The growth of a their investing. Public policy must be focused relentlessly company of scale would have led to an increase in the on creating the conditions for growth. Today the competitiveness of the sector as a whole., and that Government are making a series of wrong choices that increased competitiveness could have allowed independents will hamper the ability of private companies to grow. with Scottish headquarters to compete against international Last November, the Secretary of State for Culture, production companies with a presence in Scotland. By Olympics, Media and Sport made a choice that denied 2016, the resulting growth could have increased the STV Productions the independent status that it sought. economic impact of the sector as a whole to £98 million Officially classifying STV as an independent television and supported 1,847 jobs. That is private sector growth production company would have allowed it to compete on a scale that the Government cannot afford to ignore. for programme commissions under production quotas The Secretary of State could have secured a bright reserved for independents by broadcasters such as the future for the independent production sector in my BBC and Channel 4. In short, independent status would constituency and beyond. Instead, his decision will have offered STV Productions the chance to create allow independents with headquarters outside Scotland employment opportunities in Glasgow. Ofcom broadly to gain at the expense of the growth of STV Productions welcomed STV’s aspirations, saying that independent and those with headquarters in Scotland. The overall status would encourage greater access to network effect will be a reduction in the future economic impact commissioning by external producers. Meanwhile, Ofcom’s of the television production sector in Scotland. The advisory committee for Scotland endorsed the broad decision fails to recognise that STV is perhaps the only policy position of ensuring that television production Scottish company with sufficient capacity to take on 1153 STV3 FEBRUARY 2011 STV 1154 such large-scale productions. It fails to show a full One of the key strengths of UK broadcasting comes understanding of the measures needed to secure a viable from having a TV production base spread out across the and sustainable broadcasting industry in Scotland. Above nations and regions of the UK. That ensures that a all, it fails to encourage private sector job creation in my more diverse collection of views and voices are reflected constituency and throughout Scotland. back at all aspects of the audience through their TV The creation of a strong and competitive private screens. As well as the considerable cultural and social sector must be central to the society that we are trying benefits to the population, the arrangement enhances to build. We must support people who are in business national, regional and local economies. The Government and leading businesses. We need growth and job creation recognise that much of the country’s best television over the next year, but we also need to lay the foundations comes from the nations and regions, and we welcome for a stronger, better balanced economy in the future. the contribution that STV, in particular, makes towards I recognise the concerns of smaller independent public service broadcasting in the UK. STV’s local production companies in Glasgow and in Scotland as a news, in particular, is extremely strong and we welcome whole, and I accept that STV Productions will have to STV’s recent announcement of a pilot to deliver more address many of those concerns if it wants independent local TV news for the west and east of Scotland. That status, but I genuinely believe that all independent builds on the launch of its STV Local sites and shows a production companies—including STV,if it could acquire real commitment to serving audience demand for more its licence—would benefit from the resulting growth in localised and relevant content. the sector. On a related note, hon. Members will be aware that I want to see companies such as STV Productions the Government published their local media action plan grow, create more profits and create more jobs. With in January. I wish to reiterate that the Government are that in mind, I invite the Secretary of State, along with keen to hear the views of industry and the public on our his colleagues, to visit STV Productions in the beautiful proposals, and to receive expressions of interest from city of Glasgow, on the banks of the River Clyde, and organisations interested in running a new network channel to review his decision. That would benefit my constituency, to support local television services. Local media is a the city of Glasgow and Scotland as a whole. vital part of local democracy and I encourage everyone with an interest to respond to the public consultation. 6.8 pm I now return to the meat of today’s debate. STV is The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, important but of course so too are the independent Olympics, Media and Sport (John Penrose): Let me producers in Scotland. As the hon. Member for Glasgow begin by apologising for the absence of the handsome Central mentioned, the Secretary of State considered and talented Under-Secretary of State for Culture, thoroughly last year the matter of the potential Olympics, Media and Sport, my hon. Friend the Member reclassification of production companies owned by Channel for Wantage (Mr Vaizey), who is responsible for culture, 3 licence holders. That consideration took into account communications and creative industries, whose portfolio the responses from 29 organisations, including the Producers is relevant to the debate, and whom Members may have Alliance for Cinema and Television, Ofcom, the Scottish expected to see this evening. Many Members will be Government, STV, Channel 4 and several Scottish delighted to learn that the reason for his absence is the independent television producers. The responses covered fact that he is in Scotland as we speak. He has been in a variety of viewpoints, but the voice of the existing Edinburgh to discuss broadband, and then in Dundee Scottish independent sector was loud and clear in opposing to discuss the video games industry. However, I welcome the reclassification of STV’s production companies as the opportunity to debate this issue with the hon. independent producers. Member for Glasgow Central (Anas Sarwar) in his The consultation closed on 2 February 2010 and the stead. Department for Culture, Media and Sport announced the Secretary of State’s decision on 10 November 2010. Anas Sarwar: Will the Minister give way? I believe that the hon. Gentleman understands that the John Penrose: I will, although I have hardly got delay occurred because once the Secretary of State took started. office in May 2010 he wanted to look afresh at the proposal in the “Digital Britain” White Paper and the Anas Sarwar: Given that the other Minister is currently responses to the public consultation. It is important to in Scotland, he might like to extend his visit to Glasgow. make it clear that this decision was not taken in isolation I am sure that I could hastily organise a visit to STV and was not taken lightly. As we have seen in today’s Productions tomorrow, or even late this evening, if he debate, there are genuine and valid opinions on both so wishes. sides of the argument. The Secretary of State concluded that, on balance, the potential benefits of implementing John Penrose: I am sure that that is a kind and the proposal did not outweigh the likely negative effects, heartfelt invitation, but I suspect that it may have come particularly on the existing Scottish independent production rather late in the day, given the state of the Minister’s sector. diary. None the less, I will make sure that he is aware that the offer was made. In addition, an earlier intervention Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ claimed that nobody was on the Government Benches, Co-op): I realise that this is not the Minister’s direct but given that I was sitting there large as life feeling like brief, but does he appreciate that the point made by chopped liver as I was stared through by the hon. PACT in response to the consultation misses the fact Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray), may I put that if STV does not have this status, there is not the on the record the fact that there were people here scale for the large-scale independent production to take listening very intently to the comments that the hon. place in Scotland? STV getting this status would actually Member for Glasgow Central (Anas Sarwar) was making? help the other independents, rather than hinder them. 1155 STV3 FEBRUARY 2011 STV 1156

John Penrose: I plan to deal with some of the remarks Anas Sarwar: In our discussions with Channel 4, we made by PACT later in my speech. I am sure that the found that it has set a target of increasing its spending hon. Gentleman is right about part of its remarks, but on the independent sector in Scotland from 3% to 9%, we have to take into account not only its remarks in but it has emphasised that it feels that only STV is their totality, but all the other remarks and consultation currently able to provide the required quality of submissions made in response to the Government’s programming and expertise. Does the Minister recognise request. that it is a bit of a myth that STV would be the largest The Secretary of State believed it inappropriate to independent production company in Scotland if it were consider this matter in isolation, given the wider and to get independent status, given that there are independent more comprehensive review of public sector broadcasting companies in Scotland that were previously owned by and regulation that the Government are undertaking Warner Bros. and are now owned by Endemol—an over the term of this Parliament. On that basis, he independent-sector producer that is even larger than concluded that the proposal should not be taken forward. Channel 4? The Government appreciate that this decision will not be welcomed by everybody.Implementation of the proposal John Penrose: The hon. Gentleman advances the was not, however, in the interests of the Scottish economy argument that only STV has the scale to achieve the as a whole, nor was it likely to promote competition or kind of programming status and quality that everybody diversity of production in the long run. wants, but surely, the existence of other very large independents must undermine the logic of that position The responses to the public consultation are published in the first place. on my Department’s website, but I wish to highlight Let me make some more progress on other comments some of the specific points raised by the existing in the consultation. La Belle Allée Productions considered independent production sector. They perhaps deal with that there would be some of the interventions that have been made, and they highlight the concerns raised and give some “a real and significant danger of STV displacing commissions from other Scottish companies”. background to the decision. IWC Media believed that there is a “significant risk” Many respondents were concerned about the that the proposal displacement of commissions from the existing Scottish “would damage the Scottish production sector, by removing work independent production companies to STV.PACT said: from the companies that need it most”. “There is significant risk that the proposed change in the Matchlight said that the proposal would definition would potentially severely damage the Scottish production “substantially harm other, smaller Scottish producers by displacing sector by displacing commissions from other Scottish producers”. jobs and network productions from them in favour of STV and Its contribution expanded on this by saying that the overall effect will be a zero sum game for Scotland—no new jobs created, no new work attracted”. “our main concern, though, is that STV will displace commissions not from London companies but from other, typically smaller Tattiemoon also disputed that the reclassification Scottish independents, with the resulting damage to the Scottish would create any jobs. Its response said: production sector. The last five years have seen the growth of “To believe the claims that this change in status would result in larger, typically London-based independent companies. However, the creation of more jobs for our industry would be a terrific with a few exceptions, Scotland remains characterised by small mistake and one that we cannot afford to make. STV are aiming companies specialising in one or two genres. A 2008 report, for to adjust their position in order that they can have more control example, indicated that average turnover for an independent of our industry and compete in an incredibly unfair manner with company in Scotland was just £1.33m per year.” other programme makers”. Doubt was also expressed about the overall cultural Ian Murray: On PACT’s point about the sector in benefit to Scotland. Tattiemoon said: Scotland being characterised by small production “Here we have STV as a broadcaster breaking all the rules to companies, the issue for Channel 4 in trying to commission become an independent for fiscal gains and not for the overall more programmes from Scotland to try to get its percentages cultural well being of the nation”. up— everyone in Scotland is keen that that should Turmeric Media focused on funding, training and happen—is that there is not sufficient critical mass up development opportunities and asserted that STV would there to produce something that Channel 4 could do on “exploit many of the excellent funding, training and business a returning basis to achieve that. The only organisations development opportunities that exist in Scotland that help small that could do that are the BBC, which cannot do it for indies survive, again to the detriment of the small indie”. licensing reasons, and STV Productions, which cannot Many independent producers made general comments do it because it does not have independent producer about the potential negative impact on the industry status, so there is a bit of circular argument on this generally. Bees Nees believes that issue. “The granting of independent status to STV...would be to the detriment of the independent production sector in Scotland.” John Penrose: I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s logic, Matchlight believes that the proposal but the burden of what PACT has said is that the “seems more likely to frustrate the Government’s stated objective danger of giving STV independent production status is of protecting Scotland’s sustainable production base than to that it would cannibalise existing Scottish independents promote it.” and we would end up with a much smaller number of I will add one more quote, if I may, Mr. Deputy larger producers, with STV massively in the lead. That Speaker. Mike Bolland, a former chair of PACT, told us is a possible outcome, but clearly the Secretary of State, the proposal in balancing what he was asked to consider, did not “would upset the delicate ecology of television production in view it as strongly as some of the alternative outcomes. Scotland”. 1157 STV3 FEBRUARY 2011 STV 1158

Anas Sarwar: The Minister is rightly quoting those role within the ITV network. STV told us it has no who participated in the consultation process, but is he influence over commissioning decisions, is disadvantaged willing to quote also what Ofcom said in its response—it by its regulatory status and cannot compete for the agreed with the proposal for independent status for independent quota. STV—or what the Scottish Government said about Ofcom, as the hon. Gentleman said, provided a valuable STV Productions having a role to play in the Scottish contribution and set out its reasons for broadly supporting economy? the proposal. It did so on the basis that reclassification would encourage greater access to network commissioning John Penrose: I do not deny that there were consultation by external producers, with potential associated benefits submissions in favour—that is absolutely correct. What for the development of the production sector in the I am trying to illustrate is the strong tide of opinion nations. We also noted Ofcom’s reference to the conclusion against the proposal. Clearly, the Secretary of State had of its advisory committee for Scotland, which suggested to take all sides of the argument into account. It is that the benefit to existing Scottish independents, in the because the hon. Gentleman and his two colleagues form of a larger number of commissioned co-productions strongly put the case in favour of the proposal that I am between STV and other producers, is unproven. trying to ensure that we have a balance in the debate. It I hope that I have provided a useful and, in the light is important to remember that there are two valid sides of my last couple of points, at least reasonably balanced to the argument—the decision was a difficult one that summary of some of the contributions to the consultation. required a degree of care on the part of the Secretary of I encourage hon. Members to read the full responses on State—and I hope that I have managed to illustrate my Department’s website, although I think it is clear that, given that the hon. Gentleman made the other side that the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues have conducted of the case so strongly in his speech. a fairly extensive trawl of the submissions and are PACT in particular raised some further interesting already possessed of a high degree of familiarity with points. It considers that STV is already well placed to them. For the record, however, and for anyone else who take advantage of the predicted growth in the Scottish is interested, I just wanted to point out that the responses production sector—the hon. Gentleman mentioned that— are there for anybody who wishes to see them. even without qualifying as an independent. Furthermore, Some hon. Members may be aware of the recent PACT noted that STV Productions and STV’s wholly evidence provided by STV in the Biggar report, which owned subsidiary Ginger Productions are already winning indicates a rather larger financial benefit than was commissions from the full range of network commissioning originally projected in the impact assessment. We have broadcasters, including all public service broadcasters. seen that report, but it was received six weeks after the It was also pointed out by respondents that the decision had been announced and 10 months after benefits accruing to STV, which STV itself provided to the consultation closed. The point remains that the the Department for the purposes of the consultation, voice of the existing independent sector is loud and were minimal. As was noted in the published impact clear: it does not want this to happen. As I have mentioned, assessment, STV estimated that if its production arms in making his decision the Secretary of State also concluded were reclassified as independent under the proposal, it that it is inappropriate to consider the matter in isolation. would experience an increase in production revenues of He announced in January that we are embarking on a £400,000, to £1 million per annum. That represents an major review of the communications sector. It will be increase of just 15 hours of production and, STV a wide and comprehensive review leading to a new estimated, would create five full-time jobs. communications Act before the end of this Parliament. Those were not the only viewpoints. Other contributors I should make it clear that we do not intend to review to the consultation were in favour of the proposal, as again the specific issue of the potential re-classification the hon. Gentleman mentioned and as I acknowledged of production companies owned by Channel 3 licence in our last exchange. STV was, of course, strongly holders, but the review will include an assessment of supportive of the proposal. The Government carefully public service broadcasting and regulation, and the considered the arguments put forward by STV for the broader issues of independent production are almost benefits that would accrue both to STV and to the certain to be part of that. industry. STV believes that there would be a benefit to Question put and agreed to. the Scottish economy arising from a greater dispersion of production throughout the UK. In particular, we noted STV’s view that it was currently prevented from 6.25 pm competing on a level playing field due to its minority House adjourned.

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enough time properly scrutinising the legislation for Westminster Hall which they are responsible. Now is a good time to take stock of that, and discuss what the balance should be Thursday 3 February 2011 between time spent on constituency casework and scrutiny of legislation. [MR JOE BENTON in the Chair] Our constituents want us to have the time to know what we are voting on and to hold the Government to BACKBENCH BUSINESS account, but they also want us to deal with constituency work and to know about their concerns. How much Parliamentary Reform time a week should MPs spend in understanding what [Relevant documents: Early Day Motion 1372, Parliamentary they are voting on in Parliament, and how much time Modernisation and Reform, and the First Report of the should they spend in their constituency? We will all Procedure Committee, Ministerial Statements, HC 602.] hold different views on that. It strikes me that it might be interesting to see an official job description for the Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting role of MP. That is not something I have ever seen, but be now adjourned.—(Miss Chloe Smith.) if it existed it would be interesting, and people would probably have different views about the different clauses in it. 2.30 pm We all have our own views about the way that the Mr Joe Benton (in the Chair): A lot of people have procedures in this place could be improved, and I look requested to speak and we want to allow as many as forward to hearing from others during the debate. I possible to do so. I appeal to hon. Members to be have published some of my own ideas in a report as brief as they can, and we will do our best to get entitled, “The case for parliamentary reform”, which I everybody in. circulated to colleagues last November. Today, I make Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): It is a the same suggestion as in the report: the procedures and pleasure to hold this debate under your chairmanship, processes of the House of Commons are in urgent need Mr Benton, and I thank you for your guidance on how of reform. That is hardly a new or novel observation. matters should proceed. No doubt that was appreciated However, in a time of austerity when the rest of the by all hon. Members in keeping within the spirit of the country is urged to be more efficient with scarce resources, debate. I am also grateful to the Backbench Business perhaps we should look at our own practices and at Committee for providing the opportunity for an initial how efficient we are being with taxpayers’ resources in debate on parliamentary modernisation and reform. I using our time in Parliament. look forward to hearing about the experiences of other Some of the reforms in my report build on previous new Members, and to learning from those who have proposals by the Wright Committee and the now disbanded been MPs for longer. Select Committee on the Modernisation of the House This debate is part of a call for more open and of Commons. A few of the new proposals draw on efficient politics. If we do not continue visibly to modernise experiences from other legislatures, while others were—I the way in which we work, I worry that the public admit—rejected by previous Parliaments at a different will—rightly—fail to be convinced that politics has time. However, that is no reason why a new Parliament changed for the better. It is more vital than ever for in new circumstances should not examine those proposals Parliament to ensure that its work is efficient, transparent again. and accountable. Following my first six months in this place, those are not the first three words that come to Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): I have read the mind as I consider the way we conduct ourselves. hon. Lady’s paper; it contains some interesting and Our political process is still struggling to regain its good proposals. Past reforms covered the hours in legitimacy and credibility in the eyes of the public. which the House sits, which were changed in 2001-02. Following the expenses scandal, 232 new MPs entered One of the proposals in her paper is to change sitting Parliament in 2010. It is now time to shake off the hours on a Tuesday, but that is distinctly un-family image—and in some cases the reality—of the “old boys friendly for people who want to do the school run in club” and move Westminster into the 21st century. I pay London. At times, some of the proposals have the feel tribute to the extensive work that has already been of being not so much family as London friendly. done. In particular, the work of the Wright Committee led to important changes in the management of the Caroline Lucas: The issue that the hon. Gentleman business of the House, not least with the establishment pinpoints is important. The perspective of family of the Backbench Business Committee, which has allowed friendliness depends on where someone happens to sit, this debate to take place. be that in London, the north or the south-west. However, There is still a long way to go. Following the expenses the issue is broader than that; it is about what kind of scandal, public suspicion about the behaviour of MPs symbol and signal we want this place to convey. I hope has not gone away, and many people seriously ask what we want to give a signal that it is right for people to be exactly it is that MPs do. How does Parliament work on able to work within set hours on a given day. People, a day-to-day basis? How can we better scrutinise legislation including our staff, should be able to do that. and serve our constituents with maximum efficacy and efficiency? In years gone by, MPs were accused of being Kevin Brennan: I will not intervene again after this too Westminster focused and of not working enough in remark. However, on some occasions, it was extremely their constituencies. Now some suggest that the pendulum difficult for hon. Members to see their staff before has swung in the other direction, and that some MPs Wednesday afternoon, because there was no thinking, spend too much time in their constituencies, and not preparation or meeting time when a Committee meeting 341WH Parliamentary Reform3 FEBRUARY 2011 Parliamentary Reform 342WH

[Kevin Brennan] issue, I have a long-standing commitment to and interest in affordable credit, which is being debated elsewhere. I started before 9 am on a Tuesday. My researcher wanted have something of a reputation in the north for being toworka2pmto10pmshift, so that she could do her macho, but on this occasion I agree almost wholeheartedly job properly when those hours were introduced. The with the hon. Lady and want to encourage her, not House changed its mind and went back to the previous necessarily to pin down specific hours, but to look to hours a year later. provide certainty and to avoid what my right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Joan Ruddock) Caroline Lucas: The hon. Gentleman’s intervention described—by-elections every three months, which is indicates that changing the sitting hours alone is not what happened 24 years ago, when I came into the enough. We must change what we do within those House. hours. I am sure that it is not beyond the wit of this If I may, I will encourage the hon. Lady not to get Parliament to arrange our sitting hours so that people bogged down on hours, because other changes in this can do enough preparation for their Committees, and place could get us into at least the 20th, if not the so that officials have time to prepare the speaker for 21st century, and allow us, with discretion, to vote more urgent questions, or whatever. Do we want this House sensibly, provide certainty and, above all, demonstrate to set an example by working relatively family-friendly that we have understood the changes that have happened hours or not? If we do, other things will fall into place. because of devolution to Scotland, Wales and Northern Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): I praise Ireland and our relationship with the European Parliament, the hon. Lady for securing this debate, and for her all of which have taken shape since I came— reforming zeal. I agree with her on matters such as voting, and I think we should look at the shape of the Mr Joe Benton (in the Chair): Order. I remind right Chamber. However, can we stop the myth of family-friendly hon. and hon. Members that interventions must be kept hours? It is not a family-friendly job. When we talk as terse as possible. An awful lot of Members want to about family-friendly hours, we are talking about not speak this afternoon, and I want to be as fair as I can. only MPs from London and the south-east, but those whose constituencies are outside London, but whose Caroline Lucas: I thank the right hon. Member for families live down here. I want to take my daughter to Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) school, and that should be part of the debate. I want to for his intervention, which was incredibly valuable. He cram things in as much as possible so that I can get rightly reminds me that the Procedure Committee is home to my family. examining sitting hours. I am very glad about that. I Caroline Lucas: I do not think that family friendliness hope that this debate can produce some agreement that is a myth. The way this House works ought, where at least there should be a mechanism whereby we can possible, to give some kind of signal about what we consider all these issues again. We may disagree about hope for and aspire to for those who work in the rest of the details of family-friendly hours or exactly when the country. If we rearrange the way we work, it should different debates should happen, but I want to gauge be possible to sit on a Tuesday morning, for example, how much interest there is for some types of change and get much of the work done. We would not then and, if there is some interest, how we can make progress. need to sit late into Tuesday night. If hon. Members want to have meetings at that time, that is up to them, Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): I, too, apologise, but I do not see why that process should hold everybody because I will be going to a conference later. It is about else hostage. political engagement, so it is very much on the same theme as the debate. Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab): There is I want to pick up on the point about the Procedure also the consideration of people’s mental and physical Committee conducting an inquiry on the sitting hours health, and their general sense of well-being. Most of and the turnout today. Does the hon. Lady agree that us function better during the reasonable hours of the there is perhaps an argument for another vehicle for day, such as those proposed by the hon. Lady, than we pursuing the cause of parliamentary reform? We do not do very late at night. When I came to this House, want it to stall after the Wright Committee, and the 70% of sittings went till midnight or beyond. People Procedure Committee has limited time. In fact, although died and were ill. We have to get a grip on the issue, and it is conducting an inquiry on sitting hours, it has not look at what will be best for most people’s health. We begun that yet, and we do not want the issue to be must also accept that some people will make choices. delayed and put on the back burner. Should the House They will take their children to school, but they could not find some way to take it forward, given the clear still be here by 10.30 am or 11.30 am. level of interest in doing so?

Caroline Lucas: I thank the right hon. Lady for her Caroline Lucas: I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. It points to the fact that one of the things intervention, which was incredibly helpful. that we are battling is something of a macho culture. Many people have asked, “If you’re not ready to sit till midnight and 1 o’clock in the morning, why are you Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): With great doing the job?” That is not a good response. respect to the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson), the Procedure Committee has in fact Mr David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough) started its work and we had a very useful opening (Lab): I apologise to the hon. Lady because I will not be seminar in Portcullis House last week to take evidence here for the whole debate. As well as an interest in this from a variety of sources. The work is under way. 343WH Parliamentary Reform3 FEBRUARY 2011 Parliamentary Reform 344WH

Caroline Lucas: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his difficult enough at the moment to get people into the intervention. Having been at the seminar, which was Division Lobby with any idea of what they are voting very useful, I completely agree with him that that work on. They would be pressing a button because the Whips by the Procedure Committee has started. I want to had told them to, and parliamentary democracy would make it clear that nothing that I say this afternoon is in be destroyed. any way critical of what the Procedure Committee is doing—it does fantastic work. As we know, just this Caroline Lucas: I am delighted that the hon. Gentleman week it published findings of an inquiry into the release raised that point because I have another proposal, of information by Ministers, with a set of recommendations which I will come to in a moment, that against each with which I wholly concur. My point is that the amount amendment there should be an explanatory statement of work that we are potentially talking about in terms that explains what it is about. That would mean that far of the reforms that we need cannot be tackled by the more hon. Members had a better idea of what they were Procedure Committee alone, so I completely agree with voting on. In terms of electronic voting devices, I am the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson) suggesting not that such voting should be done in the about considering a mechanism complementary to the isolation of one’s office, but that there should be a Procedure Committee—something that would run alongside particular time when we vote each day. That would deal it but would have more capacity to deal with some of with the point made by the hon. Member for Totnes the wider issues that we are talking about. (Dr Wollaston) about not knowing when to start running over from Norman Shaw North. We would have a Sir Peter Soulsby (Leicester South) (Lab): I congratulate particular time when we would vote. It would be done the hon. Lady on securing the debate. May I take this by hon. Members either sitting in the Chamber or, opportunity to apologise for the absence of the Chairman because there is not room for everyone, in the Lobbies. of the Procedure Committee, the right hon. Member for People would still get the chance to lobby Ministers, but East Yorkshire (Mr Knight)? As the hon. Lady may there would be a fixed time in the day when we could know, he had all the symptoms of flu yesterday afternoon. vote electronically. I will explain why we would have a For his sake and for ours, he has wisely gone home, but better idea of what we were voting on shortly. From my he asked me to stand in for him. As she will have noted, experience in the European Parliament, I can tell hon. other members of the Procedure Committee are present, Members that six votes take a minute and a half with and the right hon. Gentleman asked me to respond at electronic voting. Six votes in this place take at least an the end of the debate on behalf of the Committee. hour and a half. I find it hard to justify that.

Caroline Lucas: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that Joseph Johnson (Orpington) (Con): Parliamentary clarification. democracy has not been destroyed in a large number of Let me say a little about some of the specific proposals other parliamentary democracies where electronic voting that I would like us to consider, not in the expectation works very well. The Indian democracy, for example, is that all hon. Members will agree with them, but just to one of the most vibrant in the world. In the US, people put some ideas out there about how things could be manage to vote in that way in both Houses very successfully. changed. One change could involve electronic voting. I There is plenty of evidence to show that it can work know that there will be a sharp intake of breath as I say well. those words. I have looked back at previous times when we discussed the issue in the House, so I do not expect Caroline Lucas: I thank the hon. Gentleman for an easy ride on it, but this is a time when we could making that point. The Scottish Parliament, the Welsh consider it again, not least because it has been estimated Assembly, the French Assembly and the US Congress that £30,000 of salary could be saved every week because all vote using elements of electronic voting, and I see no of the amount of time that MPs waste while waiting to reason why we should not as well. cast votes. We are talking about an hour and a half or more extra because of the way we vote. To put it Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): Does the hon. another way, if a vote takes about 15 minutes and if, in Lady agree that one of the good practices in the Welsh the previous Parliament, there were about 1,200 votes, Assembly is having a block voting period at the end of that means that an MP with an 85% voting record the day? Rather than the constant disruption of meetings would have spent 250 hours just queuing up to vote. and all the rest of it, we could designate a part of the Those are hours that taxpayers have paid for, and I day specifically for voting. argue that they could be better spent studying amendments, scrutinising Bills or helping constituents. Caroline Lucas: I absolutely agree. It would allow us to organise our business and our timetables much more Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): We also waste a effectively. I do not know what happened in days gone great deal of time—certainly I do—running from the by. Perhaps MPs did not have so many meetings with chilly outer reaches of Norman Shaw North and back outside bodies but I know that it is embarrassing, in the again. That causes disruption to meetings with colleagues middle of a meeting with quite important people, suddenly and constituents. to have to say, “I’m really sorry, I’m going to have to go. I have no idea how long I will be. I hope to get back to Caroline Lucas: As a fellow inhabitant of Norman you some time soon.” That is not a good way to do Shaw North, I share the hon. Lady’s pain. At least it business. gives us a bit of exercise. Ann Coffey (Stockport) (Lab): The hon. Lady asked Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): The hon. what happened in days gone by. Perhaps I can try to Lady is making a powerful speech, but is she really answer that. One of the proposals of the Select Committee saying that we should press a button to vote? It is on Modernisation was to introduce programme motions. 345WH Parliamentary Reform3 FEBRUARY 2011 Parliamentary Reform 346WH

[Ann Coffey] that it looks good on TV screens, but if Members have to stand they may not be able to follow the debate as Those were introduced following a recommendation of closely; they certainly find it harder to take part in the that Committee. The idea of such motions was to give debate if they are crushed at the back of the Chamber, more certainty to MPs about when votes would take far from the Speaker’s Chair. However, that is rather place, so that they could better organise their day. theoretical, because we cannot get away from the Chamber thatwehave. Caroline Lucas rose— I am aware that there was a consultation paper on voting methods back in 1998. I admit that at the time, Mr Joe Benton (in the Chair): Order. Before the hon. 64% of MPs preferred to stay with the present system, Lady continues, may I point out that she is about but one reason given for that was that they did not want 18 minutes into her speech, but that so far there have to lose the opportunity to speak informally with Ministers been at least 10 interventions. It is entirely a matter for in the Lobbies. My proposal for a set time for Members the Chamber, but I suggest that to enable the hon. Lady to go to the Lobbies to use their electronic voting to make her points we minimise interventions. devices would still enable them to lobby Ministers. Caroline Lucas: It is probably out of order for me to reflect upon that, Mr Benton, but I would argue that Joseph Johnson: That advantage belongs only to one way to improve our debates would be to have more Members of the governing party; it is not shared by interventions and fewer set pieces. I hope that I am not MPs from Opposition parties. That argument cannot be being disrespectful. used to justify a continuation of the Lobby voting I want to make one last point about electronic voting. system. If we make the process of casting votes less time-consuming, MPs could vote on more aspects of Bills. As a result, Caroline Lucas: The Government are by definition the public would have a clearer record on which to hold the majority. It struck me that, when trying to get us to account. A system that inherently discourages measures passed, I could perhaps be kinder to the voting on the specifics of Bills because it takes too long majority in addressing their concerns. I agree with the to vote is a problem. It also requires less thought from hon. Gentleman; I have not nobbled many Ministers those charged with passing legislation through the House. during my time here. Speeding up voting would enable us to be better legislators by giving better scrutiny. I return to the subject of having votes held over to a certain time of day. The Modernisation Committee Greg Mulholland: I share the hon. Lady’s desire to noted: speed up voting; I was using electronic voting when a “Members seem interested in the possibility of holding divisions member of Leeds city council. To make it work in the over, so that all votes could be taken after one another at a House, do we not need to consider the reality of the convenient time, instead of holding divisions immediately at the Chamber? In most Parliaments that have electronic end of each debate.” voting, Members have an assigned desk with a voting That was back in 1998, but despite the fact that a button, and many Parliaments use laptops, but we majority were interested, little has changed. Although could not possibly do those things in the present Chamber. 2004 saw the introduction of the so-called deferred Divisions, when some votes that would otherwise have Caroline Lucas: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his taken place at the end of the day’s sitting would be intervention. I passingly considered how radical it might conducted in writing on Wednesday morning and early be to propose that we do not sit in the Chamber, but afternoon, the option is seldom used. decided that I should probably wait for a few more years before making such a proposal. I acknowledge that there will be occasions—the votes on tuition fees for example, or the vote on the Iraq I discussed the matter with a company that specialises war—when it will appropriate to vote straight away, in the manufacture of electronic voting devices. It said because of the significance of the vote and the public’s that we could make them operable in the Chamber and interest in it. However, the fact that there are certain in the Lobbies on either side—there is not enough space exceptions to such proposals does not undermine the for all Members to be in the Chamber, as has been direction of the proposals themselves. I still believe that pointed out—but they could be made to work only they are worth considering. within that area, so there would be no danger of people going to the pub with one in their pocket, with all the I shall talk briefly about abstentions. I got myself disrepute that would involve. There are ways of getting into trouble when talking about abstentions in the past, around the problem. I would be the first to admit that it with people telling me, “Well, if you can’t make up your would be much easier if each of us had our own place in mind you shouldn’t be in Parliament.” Abstention does the Chamber, but I believe that it is still possible to get not mean that that we cannot make up our minds. It around the problem. does not mean that we do not know. Abstentions are often the result of being presented with two opposing Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): Will the ideas, but being asked to vote on them as one amendment. hon. Lady explain why it would be better to have people One may agree with one part of an amendment but not sitting in specific places? the other, yet there is no way in this Parliament of taking amendments in parts. I note in passing that in Caroline Lucas: One reason is that it would make the European Parliament, which uses 20 languages, it is electronic voting an awful lot easier. Another is that it possible to take an amendment in parts, but we cannot would make the Chamber more orderly than the sort of do that here. We might then think to ourselves, “What crush that we have when everybody rushes in. I know shall I do? I know, I’ll abstain.” 347WH Parliamentary Reform3 FEBRUARY 2011 Parliamentary Reform 348WH

It is difficult to abstain in this place. In 1998, a they are not following the legislation in minute detail, to majority of MPs indicated strong or general support for understand the implications of an amendment that an option to record abstentions, but 12 years later states “clause 1, page 1, line 5, leave out subsection (1)”. nothing has happened. Richard Taylor, the former It takes a lot of time to unpack what it really means; we Independent MP for Wyre Forest and the late David need the Bill and the amendment, and we need to know Taylor, the independent-minded former Labour MP for some of the background. A simple explanation of two or North West Leicestershire, were both known for voting three sentences would substantially increase transparency. yes and no. Of course, the media made much fun of MPs themselves would also have a better idea of what them, making it seem that they were not able to make they are voting on, which might not please the Whips up their minds. very much, but it would increase democracy and accountability. Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): A point of order It is a modest proposal and one that has been made was raised in the Chamber today about that precise before, but providing explanatory notes would, none point. Members were reminded that the Speaker has the less, make a significant difference. It would give ruled that it is unparliamentary to vote both yes and no. more power to Back Benchers and take a little more from the Whips, and enable constituents to follow better Caroline Lucas: I thank the hon. Lady for that the proceedings of the House. intervention. What she says reiterates the fact that we need a formal way of registering an abstention instead Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con): I echo what of not voting; if we do not vote, those helpful websites the hon. Lady says about explanatory notes. More often that record how often we are in the Chamber will make than not, Members have no idea what they are voting it seem that we were not there. on. If the first 20 MPs leaving the Lobby later on today were asked what they had just voted on, I suspect that Mr Mark Williams: I plead guilty; I was one of the 19 of them at best would have no idea at all. Nevertheless, four who did precisely that—to go through both Lobbies. the big issue is not lack of knowledge about what we are We were unable to support a Labour motion referring voting on, but, as my hon. Friend the Member for to the record of the previous Labour Government and Clacton (Mr Carswell) has pointed out, the fact that we were concerned about the Government’s policy, but Parliament itself absolutely fails to hold the Government there was no third way. Sitting on our hands could have to account. I hope that we will cover that issue later on been construed as our being absent from the House. in the debate. The case needed to be made that we were there, but that we were concerned about both the Opposition’s line and the Government’s. For a third party that has sometimes Caroline Lucas: I completely agree, and I look forward not been in government, that is most important. to having another debate on exactly that subject. Let me raise a few more issues before other Members speak. Caroline Lucas: I completely agree with the hon. Obviously, this is a well-subscribed debate. Gentleman. I want to say a few words about the talking out of private Members’ Bills. The Bills, which are introduced Mr Douglas Carswell (Clacton) (Con): Although the by MPs who are not Ministers, are relegated to Fridays, hours that MPs might keep are important, and although the day when attendance at Westminster drops as most the technical means by which they may vote is certainly of us go back to our constituencies. Why not move important, does the hon. Lady not agree that when it private Members’ Bills to a mid-week slot so that they comes to restoring purpose to Parliament, to getting are better attended? We could then consider the implications this House off its knees and ensuring that the legislature of making Fridays a formal constituency day. I do not can once more hold the Executive to account, there are accept that it is beyond our wits to find adequate time bigger and more profound matters than those that she for private Members’ Bills earlier in the week without has mentioned so far? displacing other legislation. Hon. Members will be well aware that our current system allows Back Benchers Caroline Lucas: I completely agree with the hon. deliberately to waste the time allotted for debate on a Gentleman that there more fundamental matters to do private Member’s Bill in order to delay it. The vote with the power of the Executive. I am starting modestly, takes place when there are likely to be far fewer Members but shall come to those in due course. There are bigger present to support it as people leave to get to far-flung issues, but after six months here, and with a degree of parts of the country. humility, I was trying to see whether there are ways in The talking out of private Members’ Bill is an insult which the efficiency of this place could be improved. to other Members who want seriously to debate the Bill, The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to say that there to the Speaker and, most important, to the electorate are bigger issues, and I know that another hon. Member who do not want to pay to run a debating chamber that will talk about those shortly. is being mocked by its participants. There should be I return to some of the smaller points. Because they explicit rules that prevent the practice of talking out a are smaller, it ought to mean that they are not resisted Bill. The Wright Committee stated that “merely procedural so much. We ought to be able to speed things up and get devices” should not be able to obstruct private Members’ some of this stuff done. We would then have the time Bills, but again, we have not seen much change in that and space to get our teeth into the bigger, more fundamental respect. That Committee also referred to the popular issues. One of the small things that we could do is to proposition that a maximum of three hours should be include an explanation of the design or purpose of an given for the Second Reading debate on any private amendment. It is particularly difficult for people outside Member’s Bill, which should be in cumulative and successive Parliament, and sometimes for Members themselves, if sittings, after which the question would be put to the 349WH Parliamentary Reform3 FEBRUARY 2011 Parliamentary Reform 350WH

[Caroline Lucas] that the Procedure Committee is doing excellent work, but it is already stressed in terms of its capacity to take Chamber on whether the Bill should receive Second on some of the very big issues that it is dealing with, Reading. In a sense, that would render pointless the act such as sitting hours. of filibustering. I shall take the fact that there was no I hope that I have demonstrated not just my own wish intervention on that point as agreement, and I shall list but also that other Members have ideas that need to proceed with great speed. be considered. I am passionate about the subject; Parliament has to become more effective so that it can better serve Joan Ruddock: I support the hon. Lady. One of the the nation. It cannot continue to be seen to waste easy things that we could do is make the Tuesday sitting taxpayers’ money and MPs’ time on antique processes compare with the Wednesday sitting, so that we start that are not fit for purpose. Even where there is disagreement the day three hours earlier. We could then accommodate on the details, I hope that hon. Members will accept private Members’ Bills in the evening, which would give that my underlying concern is that much more can be Members the choice on whether to stay. All House done so that MPs are more efficient and more easily facilities would be kept open. That would be an ideal understood. Given that, we have a duty to be more way. If Ministers, and I have been one, need to defeat a effective about the way in which we work. Bill, they must defeat it on the issues and its merits and not by procedural means. During the past couple of years, the public have heard a lot of warm words about a new politics. In the Caroline Lucas: I completely agree. wake of the expenses scandal, hon. Members will recall the words of the right hon. Member for Witney Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): I support the hon. (Mr Cameron) before he became Prime Minister. He Lady. Such a reform would also help with the House’s said that family friendly policies. I make no complaint about “this political crisis shows that big change is required. We do need that. I have not seen my seven-year-old son since Sunday a new politics in this country. We do need sweeping reform.” night, and I will not see him until I get back at 9 o’clock Last year, the Deputy Prime Minister told the House: tonight. I do not always want to stay on Fridays, not “Every Member of this House was elected knowing that this only because of constituency duties but because it is the Parliament must be unlike any other—that we have a unique duty only day of the week when I can take my son to school. to restore the trust in our political system that has been tested to My constituency is 225 miles away. The opportunity for its limits in recent times.”—[Official Report, 5 July 2010; Vol. 513, a deferred vote on a private Member’s Bill on a mid-week c. 23.] day or consideration on another day would be ideal for In 2009, we heard similar things from senior Labour both purposes. figures. The right hon. Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband), now Leader of the Opposition, Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): The hon. Lady has said: unanimous support. “Out of a set of terrible issues, this is a moment for big reform and government must take advantage of it. We need a more Caroline Lucas: I shall proceed while I am on a roll. pluralistic political system where power is shared in different Another issue, albeit small, is the adoption of more ways.” accessible language, which would increase the transparency The former shadow Chancellor, the right hon. Member of this place and give some indication that we want for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson), people to understand what we are doing. All too often it was right when he said with characteristic colour: looks as though we are deliberately mystifying what we do here to create the illusion that it is even more special “The current public mood of anger and disquiet... demands a response. We need to overhaul the engine, not just clean the than it is. There is a strong case for a systematic overhaul upholstery.” of the language to make it more self-explanatory. If the language of the Commons was made easier to understand, I hope that my points this afternoon are not simply more people, especially younger people, would be more seen as “cleaning the upholstery.”The upholstery needs attracted to politics. MPs should be able to use each cleaning; we can make the way in which we work more other’s names. We should drop phrases that, to the efficient, but there are other more fundamental issues public, look at best like arcane jargon but at worst make about how we hold the power of the Executive to Parliament seem inaccessible, distant and remote. Why account. I know that several other hon. Members will should MPs not refer to each other in debate as Mrs Smith raise those issues as well, and I look forward to the or John Jones? That would make proceedings more debate. intelligible without reducing the necessary formality and without changing the practice of speaking through 3.7 pm the Chair. A methodical overhaul of the language of the procedures and offices of the House based on the Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con): I thank principle that it should be self-explanatory and easily the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) understandable for the public should not be beyond for sparking this debate, which is obviously of great something on which we can all agree. interest to colleagues judging by the attendance. In conclusion, we will all have many ideas about how We should be careful about supposing that we are we can improve the way in which this House works. The completely beneath public contempt. The excellent paper early-day motion to which this debate has been tagged produced by the Hansard Society mentions public is suggesting not specific changes but the idea that there perception. It states that should be some mechanism whereby a range of different “60% believe that Parliament is a worthwhile institution and ideas can be discussed and taken forward. I recognise 75% that a strong Parliament is good for democracy.” 351WH Parliamentary Reform3 FEBRUARY 2011 Parliamentary Reform 352WH

What the public do not like are MPs who fiddle their made in the Hansard Society paper. Why not use this expenses, and half the public at any one time dislike the Chamber for uncontentious Second Reading debates? decisions taken by Parliament, which may be for political Why not repeat the experiment with cross-cutting question and personal reasons. We will not easily get over those sessions, which was cast aside too lightly? Why not table difficulties, and I do not think that the prescription questions to the person representing the House of being offered by the hon. Lady necessarily meets the Commons Commission or the Church Commissioners real needs of Parliament today, if we are to improve in this Chamber, rather than in the main Chamber? We ourselves as a legislature controlling the Executive. might also bring into the sequence the Chair of the Finance To contribute to a debate on reform and not endorse and Services Committee or the Chair of the Administration every single point made by the initiator of the debate Committee—I mention the last of those modestly. The risks being branded a reactionary. I realise that if I fact is that such things should be open to more questioning allude for one moment to the experience that I have had by hon. Members. in this House, I shall equally be condemned as an old fogey. I am taking a risk by even speaking in this debate. Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): I do not think that anyone thinks that, bearing in mind that the right hon. Gentleman Sir Alan Haselhurst: I want to press on, because has accepted that we should trial iPads in Committee. I many hon. Members want to speak. understand that he is an enthusiast on that front, which A lot of change has taken place in my time. Radio is absolutely marvellous. and TV have come in, and broadcasters have progressively achieved more flexible access. All-night sittings have Sir Alan Haselhurst: My hon. Friend is in danger of almost been expunged, and sittings beyond 10 pm are stealing my thunder, because I was about to say that I now rare. The programming of legislation is now the regard myself as a reformer. If hon. Members look at norm. Departmental Select Committees were only set the evidence that I have given to the Modernisation up in 1981. Notice for questions is now shorter, and Committee over a period of years, they will appreciate topical questions have been introduced. Deferred Divisions that I have fizzed with ideas as to how we might change have been set up. New technology is being cautiously our procedures and practices. However, I remain a embraced. Time limits have been introduced on speeches, conservative with a small “c” as far as our institutions and we could go further with that in Committee, on are concerned. Change should not be rushed—if it is, Report and during discussion of private Members’ we tend to recant very quickly, as in the case of the Bills. The Backbench Business Committee has been Tuesday sitting hours, when we went one way before established. Elections are now rife, giving more power going back the other. We have introduced topical debates, to Back Benchers. The Standing Orders are continually but we do not think that they are a particularly great being changed—the ink is hardly dry on the paper, such idea, and we have gone for topical questions, which we has been the pace of reform. think are a good idea. We should think things through The Hansard Society paper has a great many good before we rush into them. The stability of our Parliament, ideas in it, particularly regarding the legislative process. in contrast to many others, is testament to the way in I do not want to go into that in detail, but I commend which we have gone about things. the paper as a subject for further discussion. Let me be upfront, however, about where I caution against change. Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): Does the This Parliament is a debating chamber—that is what right hon. Gentleman agree that our absolute purpose, distinguishes it from many others Parliaments—and as the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline our performance is of high quality. We should keep Lucas) has said, is to hold the Executive to account and away from the idea of written speeches, which kill to debate matters fully and properly, but that the way in debate. which business is scheduled in the House militates against I would keep the indirect form of address. Having that? In that respect, I apologise for not being able to watched the Parliament and, worse, the state Parliaments stay for the end of the debate, because two other debates, in action in Australia, I have seen abuse to which the in which I am also keen to participate, are happening direct form of address gives rise, which is shocking. Our simultaneously. We have to look at allocating time, so system acts as a filter, ensuring that debates are conducted that we can debate issues properly, because that does in a civilised manner. The fact is that we also forget the not happen now. names of colleagues across the Floor half the time, so referring to them as “the hon. Member” is a good cover. Sir Alan Haselhurst: I am going to be slightly meaner The House should not press for the list of speakers in in my disposition towards interventions, otherwise, I a debate to be published. Having spent 13 years handling shall never get through my argument. The hon. Lady’s such situations, I know that hon. Members are not point is absolutely relevant to something that I will say entirely reliable in their relationships with the Chair. later in response to the proposals by the hon. Member The Chair tries to make up for that by being considerate for Brighton, Pavilion. and juggling lists to enable hon. Members to go off and The House has renewed itself, and the fact that we are do things that suddenly arise. Under the list proposal, in this Chamber is one symbol of that. The fact that we however, the hon. Member who did not turn up— are here at the behest of a Backbench Business Committee unfortunately that happens quite a lot—would then is further testament to the fact that we are capable of find that the local press were on to them to ask why they doing things differently. At first, this Chamber was had not been present for a debate. The proposal is not, greeted with suspicion, but it is now readily embraced therefore, quite the obvious solution it might be thought and is ripe for further exploitation—a point that is also to be. Furthermore, someone who thinks that they 353WH Parliamentary Reform3 FEBRUARY 2011 Parliamentary Reform 354WH

[Sir Alan Haselhurst] representing a party or independent minority group, that they can trust the Speaker to give them a fair deal, know when they will speak in a debate might absent because the Speaker has no axe to grind. If we accept themselves for rather more of the time, so I am not sure that, do we want the Speaker to grant urgent questions that the proposal is entirely forward looking. or even Standing Order No. 24 emergency debates, I am very suspicious about electronic voting at a which will simply shatter the business for the following single time of day. There is the question of amendments day? Alternatively, are we content, as has happened in being contingent one on another. If we want a process my experience, to have two Government statements and that increasingly divorces debate from decision, that is an urgent question take an absolutely huge chunk out the way to go, but there are times when we have to of the time, when an important debate would otherwise dispose of one amendment before we can logically go have been scheduled for that day? We must think about on to the next, and that has not been sufficiently thought that and get the compromise right. through. I declare an interest as Chair of the Administration Committee, because in a sense that shows me another Caroline Lucas: We have discussed that extensively side of the practice of the House, which is keeping the with the Clerks, who have pointed out that it is perfectly turnstiles turning and the cash registers ringing. I have possible to have a mechanism whereby the Chair could also been a distant Member of the House as well, indicate which votes are contingent on other amendments. having represented, for a period of years, the north It is not beyond our wit to work out a system whereby Manchester seat of Middleton and Prestwich, so when I we can vote electronically and in sequence, with the discuss family-friendly arrangements, I understand them votes the way they have been put down. from two different angles. We should not only discuss arrangements that are family-friendly for hon. Members Sir Alan Haselhurst: I take that point, but the hon. who live in London, as the hon. Member for Leeds Lady possibly overestimates the skills of Members when North West (Greg Mulholland) has mentioned in an they are suddenly asked to look at complicated things. intervention. If we think only from that point of view, For all the explanations that might be available, it is what we decide will be self-fulfilling, and we shall put sometimes difficult for us to get our ideas straight, more pressure on hon. Members to live in London and particularly when we have to vote instantly, rather visit their constituencies, and I am not sure whether the than having a couple of minutes to think carefully Selection Committee would be entirely enamoured by about an issue. our doing that. I am not against private Members’ Bills staying on A Member who finishes at 6pm will not get to Fridays. The fact that a proposal is a private Member’s Manchester in time to tuck up the children in bed, and Bill does not immediately invest it with merit, and some they will have to get up jolly early to be here by 9 am the pretty ordinary ones come up. It is interesting that the following morning—or 8 am to put in a prayer slip to hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion has suggested a reserve a seat for that day. Mention has been of a parent mid-week slot, when the rest of her argument about the in London wanting to take the children to school, who timing of sittings goes against spending time on such might have difficulty getting here by that early hour. We things in the evenings after a full day’s debate, which should also think of our staff. Members should not seems inconsistent. I would keep private Members’ Bills forget the amount of preparatory work that must be on Fridays. One argument is that if hon. Members done from the lowliest level up to the Clerks, to ensure cannot get 100 colleagues into the House to support that our business can start at the hour when it does. We them, their proposal may not be worth supporting, but may be forcing staff to get up terribly early—4 am or I will not go down that line. I will go halfway towards 4.30 am—to get here to do the jobs they must do for what the hon. Lady has said by suggesting that private us to function. We should take their welfare into account, Members’ Bills should be on Fridays, but that there too. should be a specific three-hour slot for debate, with a deferred Division, at another time in the week. That What is friendly in terms of making this Parliament would be a useful way of looking at the issue. operate more effectively? The Chamber is the heart of our system and at the moment other activities partly On the sitting pattern, it is important that we get the overlap with the sittings of the Chamber. If we go to a balance right between our duties in our constituencies 9 am to 6 pm arrangement, as the hon. Member for and our duties in Westminster. The balance has moved Brighton, Pavilion has proposed, there will be a complete too far, to the point that we are overly obsessed with overlap for every other activity in the House, including what happens in our constituencies while we are away in Select Committees, Public Bill Committees and all-party Westminster. groups. If hon. Members cast an eye over the “All Party We also have to decide whether we want predictability Whip” they will see the wide range of all-party groups— or an element of spontaneity as our guideline. If this scarcely a condition of the human body is not covered place is to keep up with topical issues, we may need to by one. Those are legitimate activities, and there are adjust the Order Paper to take account of that. At the deep interests at stake for small groups of Members, moment, the only person, beyond the Executive, who who must be accommodated. There are also lobby has the power to do that is the Speaker. Our Parliament events, where hon. Members want to hear from particular treats the Speaker with greater puritanism than any groups. Ad hoc meetings crop up, outside visits must be other Parliament in the world. We say that someone undertaken and there must be contact time with becomes independent from the moment they become Departments of State, councils and other bodies to the Speaker and that they never go back to party which Members are making representations on behalf political association. That being the case, we are telling of their constituents. How will all that fit in satisfactorily every Member, even if they are the only Member in human and logistical terms? Will all the rooms be 355WH Parliamentary Reform3 FEBRUARY 2011 Parliamentary Reform 356WH available at the right time? It is difficult enough now to should be invested with the relevant responsibilities get attendance at Select Committees, but, if they are to and, if necessary, it should be geed up to work faster, if be effective and their reports are to be valid, attendance the House believes that the issues are important ones must be constant. and need to be examined. Perhaps the right expression— The competition for hon. Members’ time is intense, which would be appreciated by the Chair of the Procedure and fitting everything into a shorter period of time will, Committee, my right hon. Friend the Member for East I suggest, be very difficult. It would create a risk that the Yorkshire (Mr Knight), as a motoring man—is that we Chamber would become even more sparsely attended need to change gear and move a little faster. That would than it sometimes is today. Alternatively Members will help to satisfy those who feel that some things have been multi-task in the Chamber. That is part of the justification ignored for too long. for having BlackBerrys and other devices in the Chamber. The real challenge is how we are to make the House Members of the public are beginning to dislike that as more effective. I think that the content of the Hansard much as the absence of Members from the Chamber, Society paper that has been circulated is perhaps more and Mr Speaker gets letters on the subject. The right relevant than what the hon. Member for Brighton, hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough Pavilion has said, because concentrating on the cutting (Mr Blunkett), who left his place earlier, has also received or rearrangement of hours is not the main priority or representations from his constituents about that. the best route towards a more effective Parliament.

Mr Carswell: Is my right hon. Friend suggesting that 3.27 pm many of the people who follow me on Twitter and who Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab): It is a follow blogs written in the Chamber take exception to great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, what I am doing? Is not the practice a good thing, which Mr Benton. I am not going to read out a speech; I have allows me to connect with people who do not sit and just scribbled some notes and cannot read what I have watch TV? written. I thank the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) for bringing us this debate. The number Sir Alan Haselhurst: I am sorry to disappoint my of hon. Members here is testament to how important it hon. Friend, but the public are beginning to notice and is. She is keeping the fires of reform burning. I do not believe that Members should not have their heads down think that she needs to worry that we are at the end of looking at those devices while they are meant to be reform; this is the beginning of a continuing process. listening to a debate. That is their opinion—it may be It is nice to see so many new Members in this wrong but it is their opinion and they do not like it. Chamber today, because it is important to get the views ON.MEMBERS: “He’s twittering.”] My hon. Friend [H and ideas of people who have come from outside, and may find that there is a ruling yet from the Chair who are much more normal than those of us who have dealing with Twitter as distinct from other things. been here a while. We must not forget that being here for [Interruption.] It is difficult to silence the hon. Member even one Parliament has already made some of us for Rhondda (Chris Bryant). accept as normal things that clearly are not, to the A point that has not been discussed so far is the fact outside world. that we make this place available for members of the As the Chair of the Backbench Business Committee I public to tour in the mornings. Many hon. Members want to say that its very existence has made a real like the opportunity for their constituents to be here— difference in terms of reforming Parliament and the schools in particular—and Parliament is conducting a difference between then and now. Two debates are being big outreach programme. That would become much held in the Chamber that are massively oversubscribed. more difficult under the regime that the hon. Member All the debates that we have timetabled so far in the for Brighton, Pavilion has put forward. Chamber have had speech limits. Today the limit is five minutes per speaker. I shall try to speak for 10 minutes Jo Swinson: On tourists, does the right hon. Gentleman or less; as has been said, what cannot be said in 10 minutes accept that it is difficult for most members of the public is not worth saying. It is worth noting that when Back to visit Parliament on weekdays? It would be helpful if Benchers take responsibility for their own time they use Parliament were open at weekends for people to come it wisely and well, and take an interest in what is being and have a look round. debated. That is something for the Government to consider. They should recognise that, through the Sir Alan Haselhurst: I am very interested in the Backbench Business Committee and Select Committees, question of access, but do not want to go too far into it Back Benchers are doing what we were sent here for—to now. I am happy to receive representations in my capacity hold the Executive to account better. as Chair of the Administration Committee. The House The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion has single- is, of course, open on a Saturday, but I am not sure handedly contributed to raising the status and profile of whether it is entirely suitable for school parties to come Westminster Hall. It is such a shame that we have this then. I just mentioned that point as another thing to be Chamber and underuse it, as the right hon. Member for factored into the equation. Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst) said. Along with We have changed over the years. The pace may not be the Procedure Committee, the Backbench Business fast enough for some, but we can speed up the process Committee will be considering the use of Westminster of examining all the new ideas. I do not, however, Hall, and providing another forum for debate that is believe that we need another Committee. We have had more interesting than just having an Adjournment debate the experience of the Modernisation Committee and with one Member and a Minister responding. This frankly, to have it running side by side with the Procedure debate really shows what we can do with Westminster Committee was unsatisfactory. The Procedure Committee Hall. 357WH Parliamentary Reform3 FEBRUARY 2011 Parliamentary Reform 358WH

Chris Bryant: I wonder whether my hon. Friend shows in some of the issues that my hon. Friend is would consider an idea that was suggested earlier, which raising. Every Member of Parliament is different. Every is having Second Reading debates of private Members’ Member of Parliament brings different experience and Bills in Westminster Hall with the vote subsequently, at represents a different type of constituency. We need to a fixed time, as a deferred Division in the main Chamber. find mechanisms whereby those differences, within the context of party agreement, can effectively be aired so Natascha Engel: Absolutely. To widen that point, I that we get the best legislation that we are capable of want to see Westminster Hall being used as a more making. experimental Chamber. As the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden said, some of the experiments that were Natascha Engel: I agree. Sometimes, however, we are conducted in the past worked and some did not. That is in slight danger of overplaying the idea that Whips what experiments are all about, to see whether or not infantilise Members and sometimes we should just be they work, and unless we actually have a go at them we big enough to stand up to them, if we have an issue. will not find out. Westminster Hall seems to be exactly Mr Bone rose— the type of forum where we can conduct those experiments. I would have ministerial statements and any number of Natascha Engel: As the hon. Gentleman has frequently things taking place in Westminster Hall that currently done. we may or may not do in the main Chamber. I want to make a very broad point before I make my Mr Bone: I congratulate the hon. Lady on making a one suggestion for parliamentary reform. That broad very powerful speech. I want to bring to the attention of point is about being very clear what we as parliamentarians the House my private Member’s Bill abolishing the do and to make that our starting point for reform. I was Whips Office. I have tabled it for a Wednesday night— with the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion when we 7 September 2011. All things come if we wait. were giving evidence to the Procedure Committee on reforming sitting hours, in a pre-inquiry seminar, and Natascha Engel: I look forward to taking part in that one of the points that emerged is that every MP is debate. In fact, that brings me to the end of my general different. There are different parties, but MPs are also points. There is one thing that I consider would be a different as individuals. They have different lives, different really good piece of parliamentary reform and it relates backgrounds and different experiences that they bring to Select Committees. Select Committees are the thing to Parliament. No one way of doing things will suit that we as a Parliament do really well. They are possibly everybody, but we have come quite far from there being the only forum where Members of Parliament, after a clear idea of what we do in Parliament. The increasing they are elected, learn, gain in expertise and develop. It focus that we have given our constituency work, which is an absolute privilege for MPs to be members of Select is something that has been happening over a long Committees. Being a member of a Select Committee is period, not only undermines the work that used to be not open to everyone. In fact, it is only open to a done by local councillors and local authorities—work minority of MPs. We have taken away the ability of that they should be doing—but there has been a direct Whips alone to appoint people to Select Committees correlation between the amount of time that we spend and we now have elections across the House, and that doing very local constituency casework and the amount has worked really well. of time that we do not spend scrutinising legislation in I do not see why the Select Committee principle Parliament and holding the Executive to account. I cannot go much wider. Initially, I thought that every wonder whether the Hansard Society would like to MP should be allowed to be a member of a Sub-Committee carry out some proper research into that issue. It is a of a Select Committee that looks in greater detail at very important case that we need to make. individual issues that may be cross-departmental, and that we should also have departmental co-ordinating Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): The hon. Committees. However, I think that we should go even Lady is making an extremely good point. Does she further and invite Members of the House of Lords to agree that there is a direct correlation between the take part in that process. increasing power of the Executive, which we have seen We massively neglect the House of Lords. Regardless over the last 20 years, and the increasing quantity of of whether we believe that Members of the Lords time spent by Back Benchers doing stuff that should be should be elected, or even if we do not believe that they done by somebody else in their constituencies? What we should be there at all, there are people in the Lords who want is people here in Parliament, working hard, holding are specifically there for their expertise; indeed, it is the Government to account and getting a grip of the their only reason for being in the Lords. Sometimes, we Executive. have people who are very expert in the House of Commons, but in the House of Lords there is a group of people Natascha Engel: Yes. I would not like to say that we who are expert in a certain subject. I would love to see should never go back to our constituencies, but the hon. Select Committee membership widened to include Gentleman makes an absolutely fair point. absolutely everybody. For example, instead of a Select Committee on Energy Fiona Mactaggart: One thing that the hon. Member and Climate Change, or on Environment, Food and for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) did not speak Rural Affairs, we should have a Select Committee that about—unsurprisingly, because she is a one-Member examines the issue of waste management and incineration. party in this place—was the way that the Whips operate. In almost every single constituency, the issue of where One of the things that I found when I first entered an incinerator is placed is a massive one. It involves Parliament was that the infantilising impact of Whips planning laws, waste management and the local authority; on Members of Parliament was quite damaging and it all these different aspects of the issue need resolving. 359WH Parliamentary Reform3 FEBRUARY 2011 Parliamentary Reform 360WH

Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): Is that on securing this debate. Having read her paper, I thought not the role of the all-party groups? Although I respect that I would come here struggling to agree with any of their lordships in the other place and there are a couple it, but I stand here convinced by much of what has been of Joint Committees, having the House of Commons said, and that has shaped what I am about to say. shadowing Departments is the right way forward. I want to home in on two distinctions. There is a Natascha Engel: I disagree and I will develop my developing theme here about what we do as opposed to point very briefly, because I have already spoken for my how we do it, and that is reflected in the other distinction, 10 minutes. I would like to see smaller Select Committees which is between public attitude to what we do and going out into the country and taking evidence from public interest in how we do it. Those two things can get people rather than just sitting in this place. confused, and sometimes the political and public reaction to circumstances further blurs the issue. Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- I shall dwell, to begin with, on what we do. What lies op): I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way, at the heart of this is something that other speakers especially as I know that she wants to speed up and have mentioned: credibility—our credibility, Parliament’s finish her speech. Does she agree that there is much to credibility and Members’ credibility in the eyes of the be learned from the example of the Scottish Parliament, wider public, which goes back a lot further, I suggest, particularly from its Public Petitions Committee, which than The Daily Telegraph expenses scandal last year. can refer particular items that have been brought by Looking back—some would argue over generations—there members of the public to other Committees of the has been a gradual decay in the wider public’s confidence Parliament for them to examine in more detail? Perhaps and trust in the parliamentary system and, indeed, in that is something that could be looked at. parliamentarians. However, that cannot necessarily be pinned—as some people have suggested—on the style Natascha Engel: Absolutely. I would throw all these in which we do things in this House. I suggest that it is ideas into the pot. I simply repeat that Select Committees more often than not all about what we do, and about are the thing that works best in this place and I would whether what we do is relevant to voters—rather than to love to see their role expanded, not only because they MPs—and relevant in the 21st century rather than in work so well and because they develop the expertise of any other context. Perhaps the political reaction, by all individual MPs but because they could become a forum parties, to one or two of the dramas of the past few for us to be, as the Speaker always says, “ambassadors months—namely, expenses—simply serves to illustrate for Parliament”, by going out and engaging with people that. on individual issues that are not party political, just as Select Committees are not party political. We could go As a mere candidate, I read about how the parties out there and really engage with individuals. reacted to the expenses scandal and was depressed by the fact that we seem to get obsessed with the cost of Ann Coffey: May I make a quick suggestion? One politics rather than its value, with thinking that the cure way that Select Committees could engage Back-Bench to all this is simply to introduce a new system, to start Members more would be to accept oral evidence from talking about Lords reform or about new voting us more often. mechanisms. I am not absolutely sure whether that was a mistake, or simply an attempt to distract people from Natascha Engel: Absolutely. The Backbench Business what was going on, but with such measures, for example Committee is a perfect case in point. We receive oral voting reform—enthusiastically supported by some but evidence from Members every week. My hon. Friend is not by others—AV referendums or, as in my case, the absolutely right to make that suggestion. In that context, referendum on further powers for the Welsh Assembly, I would also love to see the work of the Procedure the public reaction is pretty lukewarm at best, whichever Committee develop now that it has taken on so much side of the fence people sit on. They are shaking their extra work, especially after the Modernisation Committee heads and thinking, “This is not what we were concerned was effectively merged with it. What the Procedure about. We were concerned about something much more Committee does, in terms of parliamentary reform, is fundamental—relevance, rather than self-indulgent activity interesting to most people, not only to those in this by politicians.” room but across the rest of the House. I would love to see that kind of work much more widely debated and If there was a refrain on the part of voters during the extended, and for people to be given the opportunity to election campaign, I would suggest—although I might participate, especially the people we represent in this be alone in this—that it was far oftener about good place. That is my one little suggestion: looking at widening government than cheap government, and that lies at the the role of Select Committees within parliamentary heart of this distinction. Good government is relevant reform. government—relevant to voters rather than to MPs. We I really hope that this is not the end, but rather just have been, and continue to be, punished for what is the beginning of developing ideas on how we can reform occasionally portrayed as self-indulgent activity. We are this place to make it work better, and on how we, as punished in two ways: either by a really angry reaction, individual Members, can much better represent the which is manifest in several ways on a day-to-day basis; people out there who send us here. or, worse still, by people saying, “A plague on all your houses. We are simply turning our backs on the parliamentary system and on politicians, because we 3.40 pm don’t think you represent our interests anymore.” That Simon Hart (Carmarthen Westand South Pembrokeshire) reduced confidence in our systems is a much more (Con): I join the many speakers who have congratulated serious problem perhaps, than some of the issues about the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) the way in which we do things. 361WH Parliamentary Reform3 FEBRUARY 2011 Parliamentary Reform 362WH

[Simon Hart] However, I felt that this week’s Prime Minister’s questions was a bit like going to the Oval to watch the cricket, I argue, therefore, that how we do things is less only to find that it had been rained off and having to sit important than what we do, but that does not mean that under an umbrella waiting for something to happen. that is not important at all. When I stood up, I mentioned to the hon. Lady—may I call you Caroline, perhaps, Chris Bryant: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? after today?—that I sympathise with the suggestion of amendment explanations. It is a great idea. When we Simon Hart: I would be delighted to give way, as put forward amendments from the Political and always. Constitutional Reform Committee, they came with a paragraph that explained to people on that very Committee 3.48 pm what we were seeking to achieve. That was a great move. Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. The point about pre-legislative scrutiny is crucial. We had an argument with the Executive at the beginning of 4.05 pm this Session because we had not had sufficient time to afford pre-legislative scrutiny to one or two of the On resuming— constitutional reform Bills, and the Government’s response was, “We can’t give the 12-week minimum pre-legislative Simon Hart: All that activity for the Division probably scrutiny all the time because we’d never get anything reinforces the argument that the hon. Member for Brighton, done.” I do not buy that—nor, I suspect, do many other Pavilion was making earlier. I was coming to a conclusion people—because all that happens is that we do nothing and waiting with great excitement for an intervention for 12 weeks, and we have seen with the Parliamentary by the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant); I Voting System and Constituencies Bill that what the hope he will come back to make it before too long. Government gained in the first 12 weeks by not affording I was about to praise one aspect of the devolved pre-legislative scrutiny has caught up with them now in Parliaments. I suspect that I came across as a little the form of the blockage in the House of Lords. I unconvinced by the vibrancy of their proceedings, but if therefore accept, although I did not think that I would, there is something with which to credit the Welsh Assembly the points being made. Committee stage, which the in particular, it is the fact that increased accessibility for right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton members of the Welsh public—constituents who are (Mr Meacher) mentioned in an e-mail earlier today, served by both an Assembly Member and a Westminster provides a bit of certainty and additional scrutiny, and Member—has led to increased confidence, which we we should recommend it. might reflect on. Many of their procedural matters may I have two further points, which, one might argue, are mirror what we do, but the feeling that someone can get even less important than the ones I have made so far: to a Minister more quickly and discuss their problems language and tradition. In my distant outpost in west at greater length has led people to believe, often Wales, of all the complaints that I might have received reluctantly—they would have taken a very different about parliamentarians and Parliament in general, tradition view a few years ago—that it is a good thing and a and language have not been mentioned often, if at all. lesson that we could work on here. In fact, I think that we have to tread carefully when it The word “balance” has been mentioned by many comes to destroying, or dismantling, some of the theatre Members this afternoon. It is not just the balance of of this building and the system that we use. I disagree our work and family life, although that is absolutely with the notion that standing in a Lobby for 15 minutes vital. I am one of the Members who will leave here at every so often is time entirely wasted or that tradition is 7 or 8 o’clock tonight and will be lucky to get back to always to be interpreted as a dirty word, and I urge a bit west Wales before midnight, and I shall probably not of caution. Of course modernisation is the direction of see my children until tomorrow afternoon. This is not a travel that we should be going in, but let us take it at a sob story, because I knew that was the lifestyle I was steady pace, because it does not lie at the heart of the entering when I came here—my eyes were wide open; problems that we seriously need to address. but I accept that we can improve some areas. Although I say all that after an informative visit to the Scottish it may just be a rumour, it is a pretty depressing statistic Parliament with our Select Committee only last week. I that 40% of the married Members of Parliament who also have a little experience—I would not put it any entered the House in 2005 have separated from their stronger than that—of how business is conducted in the partners. That is 10% higher than the national average, Welsh Assembly. I attended, with other hon. Members, so we need to reflect on that as we develop—slowly and First Minister’s questions in the Scottish Parliament sensibly, I hope—the proposals that have been made and, with no disrespect to our hosts, it was arguably a this afternoon. rather soulless affair. There was lots of button pressing I came to the debate expecting not to be convinced, and lots of individual desks and laptops with people but I have been semi-convinced by some of the arguments situated behind them. There was no interaction, theatre made by the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion. She or energy. Even though the contributions were powerful makes some sensible proposals that do not compromise and relevant, there was not the degree of theatre that I systems that have been honed over generations and that think, up until this Wednesday at least, we enjoy here. serve the nation well. Nor do they compromise some of Dr Wollaston: Would my hon. Friend accept the word important theatre, drama, energy and passion of this “pantomime” instead of “theatre”? place, which I have not seen reflected at the same level in our devolved Parliaments. One or two frivolous suggestions Simon Hart: On the basis that the First Minister was have been made, and although we should take them sitting at the front and everybody was behind him, I seriously, I do not think we should advance them with suppose that there was a connection with that word. any great enthusiasm. 363WH Parliamentary Reform3 FEBRUARY 2011 Parliamentary Reform 364WH

In conclusion, let us not lose sight of the fact that the to go and see somebody else,” but that often only results relevance of what we do—its relevance to 21st century in the person going away dissatisfied and saying, “Well, Britain, our constituents and all corners of the earth—is they wouldn’t do anything for me.” We all make such of far greater significance than the means by which we decisions daily. so often do it in this building. I have put my pen through great screeds of this speech to try not to take up too much time. A lot has 4.9 pm been said about electronic voting. There is a huge case Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): I am pleased to speak for electronic voting for the reasons given by the hon. under your chairmanship this afternoon, Mr Benton. I Member for Brighton, Pavilion, the greatest of which is congratulate the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion being able to abstain. As a member of a smaller party, I (Caroline Lucas) on securing this important debate. often look at motions tabled by the Government and There are two aspects to the debate: how Parliament the official Opposition and say, “A plague on both your is perceived, and the procedures of Parliament. Parliament houses.” I would love to be able to abstain and be is, frankly, often its own worst enemy in terms of how it recorded as abstaining, but often we simply do not vote. is perceived. I draw hon. Members’ attention to the That is an issue and a lot of hon. Members will feel fiasco over the resignation of Gerry Adams from the that way. House. Leaving aside the undoubted entertainment value I would go further than the hon. Lady. She made the of the UK Government and an Irish republican arguing case—possibly to try to engender support—that we over an ancient Crown title so that he can resign from a should have electronic voting in the Chamber or the Parliament in which he has never taken his seat, does it Lobby.I disagree. There is no reason why, in the 21st century, not illustrate the fact it is absolute nonsense that the when we are wirelessly connected—or not connected, in only way a Member can resign is to be appointed to a many cases—to smart phones, iPads and everything non-existent title? Incidentally, it was reported that the else we cannot design a system that is secure enough to Chancellor conferred the title on Mr Adams without allow, although perhaps not on every occasion, people him applying for it or agreeing to accept it. Is it really to vote remotely if it is appropriate. I say that because the constitutional case that the Chancellor can appoint towards the end of last year when we had the dreadful someone to an office that disqualifies them from sitting snow, I could not get to London for two whole weeks. I in the House without them specifically applying for it? was a member of the Postal Services Bill Committee at If that is the case, perhaps some potential Tory rebels the time and missed several sittings—to my great frustration should consider their position. because I had several amendments tabled for debate. However, there are much more important issues to I also missed votes in the House. In those circumstances, consider in terms of how we carry out our day-to-day I do not understand why remote voting cannot be procedures. The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion allowed. has produced a paper, which I read with great interest, and I agree with a great deal of it. However, there are We may all kid ourselves that every hon. Member sits one or two things I do not agree with. The whole and listens to the debate and makes a decision on how business of family friendly hours is a red herring. I to vote, but we all know it is not true. We choose which come from north-east Scotland, and either I am here or way to vote for various reasons. Remote voting should I am there. I cannot be here and go home at night. I be allowed on some occasions, although not in every would like to see how the Independent Parliamentary instance. We have moved a long way from the days when Standards Authority dealt with the travel expenses that seriously ill people were carried through the Lobby in would arise if I tried to do so. That simply cannot the middle of the night, but we still queue up for happen. As the hon. Member for Carmarthen West and 15 minutes to vote. There is much to be gained from South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) rightly put it, when electronic voting. I agree with the point that the design we were elected to the House, we accepted that we of our Chamber makes it difficult to have voting within would spend much of our lives here. It does not matter the Chamber. It is much easier in, for example, the to people from the north of Scotland whether we finish Scottish Parliament, which is a much smaller Parliament at 6 or 10; we are not going home. From my point of of 129. For a Parliament of 650, the same lay-out is view, if we could squeeze the parliamentary week into impossible. As I said, in the age of wireless connection, two or three days and spend more time in the constituency, I see no reason why we cannot find a way in which it would be perfect. electronic voting can be done. Let us move towards the 20th century, if not the 21st. That brings me to the point that there are two visions of Parliament. I suspect that some Members see Parliament The second point I want to consider relates to petitions as being about dealing with the big issues and holding and making Parliament more relevant to our constituents Government to account, as has been noted. However, and giving them a bigger say in what we are doing. another, competing, issue is that many of our constituents Again, the issue has been considered by the House in want us to deal with problems on their behalf. We all previous modernisations. Originally, the system was talk about how we must be more accessible and make that a Member had his or her 30 seconds in the sun Parliament more accessible. That is not done by being presenting a petition in the Chamber, and they then unavailable to our constituents because we are here placed the petition in the bag behind the Speaker’s discussing the big issues of the day. We have to deal with Chair. Sometime later, they would get a brief response the issues that affect everyday life. It is true that many of from the Department and that was that. As part of the the people who come to our constituency offices come previous modernisation, petitions are now reported to a to us with problems that are not strictly to do with Select Committee. However, the process never seems to Parliament. However, many of us are then faced with go any further than that and the petition is simply noted the question of what to do. We can try to say, “Youneed by the Select Committee. 365WH Parliamentary Reform3 FEBRUARY 2011 Parliamentary Reform 366WH

[Mr Mike Weir] Mr Weir: I was just coming to that point. The hon. Lady is correct. The whole point about the petitions If we want to make Parliament more accessible to procedure in the Scottish Parliament is that by raising a constituents, we need to consider a much greater petition, the public can instigate action in the Parliament. forum to allow genuine concerns to be more fully The petition is not just something that is filed away as of canvassed by Parliament. For example, in my interest to somebody; the Committee considers how it constituency, there is a threat to close driving test should proceed. It may hold a hearing at which the centres. I have raised that matter and debated it in this petitioners can put their points in person, or through Chamber with the relevant Minister. However, in my representatives, and it may call, and has often called, constituency, the campaign has gathered a huge number Ministers to give evidence on the issue. The Committee of signatures on a paper petition and there has been a does not have the power to impose a solution, but as the Facebook petition. It will reach the point when people hon. Lady said, it can recommend to other Committees ask, “What can we do with the petition?” The answer is and to the Government that action be taken. that they can send it to the Driving Standards Agency Constituents and members of the public who have a to be filed there, they can send it to the Minister, valid point have an engagement with the Parliament to probably to be filed in the Department, or they can give get their point across directly. They can be assisted by it to me to present to Parliament and it will presumably their MSPs, but their MSPs cannot deliver the petition; be reported to the Select Committee on Transport. it has to done by members of the public. It is a way of However, again, no action is likely. We desperately need making sure that there is engagement with the citizen. to look at ways that such petitions can be considered in That could also be a way for this Parliament to have more detail. that engagement. That need not be an exact example; In closing down the No. 10 petition website, the this Parliament deals with a much larger population, Government announced that they will be introducing a and there is a much larger number of MPs and new system whereby, if I understand it correctly, the constituencies, but it is not beyond our wit to look at most popular petitions will be converted into private ways to have that engagement with the public. Everything Members’ Bills—although that opens up the difficulty does not need to be channelled through a Member of of how those Bills are dealt with. That is an interesting Parliament. The public will respect this Parliament much idea but, if it has been reported correctly, the numbers more if they can have direct access, and there are ways needed mean that only the most controversial matters to do that. or the most organised national campaigns will ever get A point was raised about explaining the meaning of to that stage. I suggest that we consider a petition an amendment. It is already possible to do that in a system that is more akin to the one that operates in the Committee, so MPs need to look at their own actions Scottish Parliament. In Scotland, anyone can present a sometimes, but I ask Members who have sat on Public petition to the Scottish Parliament. It only requires Bill Committees, how often is it actually done? It is rare one signature and it can be submitted in any language. now, in my experience. It was introduced in the previous The petition must, of course, relate to a devolved issue Parliament as a trial, at the same time as laptops, if I and be relevant on a national level. It is important to remember correctly. MPs do not seem to be using the note that it does not preclude a local issue where there procedure, so we have to look at that. If we are serious may be a national angle. To take the example of the about modernisation, and if these issues are raised, let driving test centres in my constituency, the issue could us use them and show that we are interested in pushing relate to how the DSA is dealing with driving tests in forward with modernisation, otherwise debates such as rural areas. this are utterly pointless. In Scotland, a local health issue has been raised on Parliament has, in recent years, through the expenses the basis it has been alleged that health boards are not scandal and other things, lost a lot of its reputation. It following national guidelines. The Scottish Parliament may seem strange for me to make such points, as has set up a Public Petitions Committee that consists of someone who wishes to get out of this Parliament, but nine MSPs to consider every admissible petition lodged— while we are here it is important that we engage with the obviously not all petitions are admissible. That Committee public and find ways to enable them to see us as relevant writes to the bodies affected, whether it be the Scottish to their lives. If we fail to do that, it will increase the Government, health boards, police forces, local authorities democratic deficit and will prove a grave danger to our or whatever, with questions to seek information on the future. matters raised. It asks the petitioner to comment on them. Mr Joe Benton (in the Chair): Before I call the next speaker, may I point out that the proceedings will now Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab): If I am finish at 5.45 pm? I propose to start the wind-ups at called to speak, I will make reference to my experience 5.05 pm and there are still a lot of Members indicating in the Scottish Parliament. May I draw to the that they wish to speak so I again appeal for brevity. attention of the House the effectiveness of the Public Petitions Committee in the Scottish Parliament, and 4.24 pm not just in the processing and engagement that it represents? It has led to significant changes in law, most Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): Thank you, recently on the health service and access to blood. Mr Benton. I will take careful note of what you have People had been prohibited from getting blood through said and restrict my comments by not repeating many the NHS and significant laws were changed. That was of the points that other Members have raised. However, initiated by the experience of a constituent, through the it would be remiss of me not to start by congratulating Public Petitions Committee, so it is effective in changing the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) the law. on securing the debate. 367WH Parliamentary Reform3 FEBRUARY 2011 Parliamentary Reform 368WH

I repeat the fact that I am a member of the Procedure Mr Nuttall: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that Committee, and I have listened carefully all afternoon intervention. As my vicar reminds us every Sunday to the points everyone has made, and will continue to morning, Parliament is the “high court” of Parliament. do so for the rest of the debate. I do so with an open Perhaps through our Select Committees we could take mind. It is important that matters of parliamentary such matters more seriously and ensure that witnesses reform be considered from the basis of how we can best do attend when they are asked to appear to give evidence do our job most effectively. What is the best way that we before Committees. At this point, I thank the first three can conduct our affairs for the benefit of our constituents? speakers in this debate, all of whom appeared before the One major problem is not so much the quantity of Procedure Committee last week to help in our deliberations legislation that Parliament produces, but its quality. I on the reform of sitting hours. am obliged to the Hansard Society for drawing my I am conscious of the fact that many have spoken attention to the increasing volume of legislation that but that many still wish to speak, so I conclude with has been passed by Parliament over the years: a final comment from the Hansard Society’s report, “In 1950 Parliament passed 3,690 pages of legislation. By 1970 which is worth our bearing in mind. It said that new this had grown to 5,990 pages and by 1990 to 8,940. But just over measures may destabilise existing procedures and 15 years later the number of pages had almost doubled to create inconsistencies and unintended consequences that 16,031.” undermine the coherence and rationality of the process Looking just at criminal offences, it states: as a whole. I caution all Members that we must be wary of the unintended consequences of any reform that we “All criminal offences passed between 1351 & 1988”— propose and upon which we embark. a period of 637 years— “are contained in one volume of Halsbury’s Statutes of Criminal 4.31 pm Law encompassing 1,382 pages of law. The offences for the Mr Michael Meacher (Oldham West and Royton) 19 years between 1989 and 2008 are contained in three volumes (Lab): I congratulate the hon. Member for Brighton, encompassing 3,746 pages!” Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) on securing this important There is plenty of evidence that whatever else Parliament debate on parliamentary reform. The subject cries out may be criticised for, it certainly cannot be criticised for for discussion and debate. She focused largely on the lack of productivity. Whether we are producing legislation admittedly archaic procedures of this place, but I want of high quality is another matter. One idea, if I could to concentrate on power and accountability. I shall try throw my six penn’orth into the reform idea pot, is for to be brief. more pre-legislative scrutiny and the improvement of At the nadir of the expenses scandal, it was finally the legislative process. That would have a virtuous effect. agreed by all three political parties that the rock-bottom The biggest problem, which I think sums up the whole reputation of Parliament could best be salvaged by a debate, is how best to use our time. To solve the problem new, forceful, democratic role for Parliament and an of defective legislation would in itself be an enormous effective scrutinising and decision-making Chamber for boon, because we would then spend less time sorting the nation’s business. The Wright Committee—the out the problems created by poor, inadequate and inefficient Committee on Reform of the House of Commons—was legislation. I hope that is one area we will be able to set up. It was given little time but it reached its conclusions look at in the course of proceedings. in rapid order and produced an excellent, well-argued Finally, I caution Members that before we go down report which ushered in two important changes, as we any road of reform we look at the procedures that are all know. already available to us and ensure that we are already The first was the Backbench Business Committee, using them to full capacity. For example, the hon. which has been successful under the chairmanship of Member for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel), my hon. Friend the Member for North East Derbyshire who I congratulate on her tremendous work as the (Natascha Engel). It wrested some limited control of Chair of the Backbench Business Committee, made the parliamentary agenda from the Executive, which mention of the work of Committees. I entirely agree had monopolised it for decades, although—I say this in that Committees are a useful tool for the House, but I the presence of the Leader of the House, whom we are wonder whether we are using them as effectively as we glad to see here—we look to the conclusion of that could. As evidence, I would cite the one power that all process by the setting up of a House business committee Committees have, except a very few dealing with private at an early stage. The other important change was to Bills, which is the power, almost never used, to take secure the election, as opposed to the selection by evidence on oath under the Parliamentary Witnesses Whips, of the Chairs of Select Committees who, as we Oaths Act 1871. It is a rare power, but it already exists all know, are by far the most effective mechanism for and may be something that we could use. holding Ministers to account. Both innovations have worked extremely well. Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman is right. In fact, I However, valuable as those reforms are, they scarcely would make it standard for all Committees to take begin to redress the balance of power that has subordinated evidence on oath. It is extraordinary that often Committees Parliament over the past several decades. Its power has want somebody to give evidence but never go through drained away through the increasing concentration of the process of forcing them to attend, which is still power in No. 10. It continually seeps away to Brussels as technically possible. For example, Rupert Murdoch is the European Union mandate spreads ever wider, and one of the most significant players in British media and the judiciary increasingly encroaches on the parliamentary in British society, yet he has never appeared before a prerogative, presumably prompted by the judges’ view Select Committee of this House, nor has any member of that if Parliament cannot hold the Executive account, the Murdoch family. That is extraordinary. they will. 369WH Parliamentary Reform3 FEBRUARY 2011 Parliamentary Reform 370WH

[Mr Michael Meacher] hon. Friend the Member for Stockport (Ann Coffey)— Members of Parliament have an opportunity to make A parliamentary revival needs to be tackled at several representations. levels. At one level, we drastically have to overhaul our That is all about existing procedures. I want to say existing procedures. I want to give a few examples. something very quickly about a further range of reforms Bills in Committee—the stage at which they should be whereby Parliament could and should assert its authority seriously scrutinised—can often emerge after dozens if as the elected voice of the people. On matters of overriding not hundreds of hours of scrutiny with minimal changes. national importance—the obvious example of the past I have even known them to emerge with no change. decade was the Iraq war; it took 15 months before this Why? Because a Whip-chosen majority of the governing House even had a debate on it—Parliament should have party can simply block amendments. We should look at the right to set up its own commissions of inquiry and the Scottish system in which Bills no longer go to a not simply depend on the Executive or No. 10 to do so, Standing Committee but to the appropriate Select because, of course, it is usually their actions that are the Committee, which has a track record of expertise. Of subject of the investigation. That is not a particularly course, that would require considerable strengthening novel suggestion or innovative proposal—it is exactly of Select Committees in terms of resources, the number what our Victorian predecessors did quite regularly. of sub-committees and also time, but it would be a Secondly, when committees of inquiry are set up by serious and much better alternative. the Prime Minister, which will probably remain the Report is the one stage at which Members of this normal practice, the House should be empowered to House can make important changes to Bills through scrutinise the terms of reference and approve the votes of the whole House. One abuse is that the Government appointment of the chair and members of those bodies, can all too easily prevent later amendments. Of course, because the choice of personnel and the terms of reference amendments are often not wanted by Governments—that can significantly skew the final report in a particular is hardly surprising—and they can ensure that they are direction. Many of us know that all too well. not even reached by talking out earlier amendments. Thirdly, on patronage, Select Committees should One recent example of that, of course, is the European routinely carry out confirmation hearings. Again, there Union Bill, but there are many others. is nothing original about that—that is exactly what happens and has happened for years in the United Another problem, which has been mentioned, is not States Congress. That should be done, obviously, for the fault of either the Whips or the Government but of persons who are appointed to leading quango posts but Members. How many Members vote at the suggestion also, perhaps, for some ministerial appointments. People of their Whips as they approach the lobby without from outside who have never been elected to Parliament actually knowing what they are voting on? It is a serious are brought in by Prime Ministers and suddenly appointed abuse, and one of the reasons it is problematic is that to important posts. Parliament has a right to call them most people cannot understand what the amendment is for examination, and to vote to approve their appointment actually about. I have had that experience many times at the end. when looking at the amendment paper. A proposal, Fourthly, there are often obscure and complex legal which I believe has the support of the Government, is issues in many of these matters. Parliament should be that there should be a short explanation—two or three served by its own legal counsel if it is to be an effective lines, for example—of the purpose and nature of every check on Executive power. amendment on Report so that people can more easily make a judgment. I will make three further quick points. One is the control of expenditure, since the annual Government expenditure of £650 billion is a key exercise of power. Chris Bryant: Will my right hon. Friend give way? Parliament should establish a framework for the contemporaneous monitoring and cross-examination Mr Meacher: I realise that many people wish to of major expenditure programmes; not just the ex post speak, but I shall give way very briefly. facto examination by the Public Accounts Committee, though that is valuable and I would want to keep it. It Chris Bryant: When a knife or a guillotine come in, should be aided by a cadre of expert external advisers. the Government Whips are happy for amendments to Whether that is done through Select Committees—which be talked out because they know that the rules of the might be the best way—or through a new specialist House specify that the Government amendment will estimates Committee, is for discussion. The allocation still be taken. If we were to abolish that rule, some of of huge quantities of public money and the whole their power over time would disappear. question of value for money are of legitimate interest to Parliament, at the time that the decisions are still in the making. Mr Meacher: That is a fair point, and I entirely agree. Secondly, professional lobbyists are a very serious I do not have time to suggest ways of dealing with all issue. They have now hugely increased their influence the problems, which are extensive. This House is meant over the political process. Parliament should require to be a serious, scrutinising body, but it simply is not so that a public register is kept, including the scope of at present. their activities, their source of funding and their The third issue that I wish to raise briefly is about the meeting with Ministers. If there is to be the transparency public, who are involved in this—their lives are controlled that democracy demands, that murky area needs to be by the Bills that we put through. There should be a cleaned up. pre-legislative stage for Bills at which outside experts Thirdly, several hon. Members mentioned petitions. I can be brought in to give detailed evidence, and where agree that where a very high—and the bar should be members of the public and, indeed—I agree with my high—threshold number of electors have signed a petition, 371WH Parliamentary Reform3 FEBRUARY 2011 Parliamentary Reform 372WH there is a case for saying that it should be debated and if he did so. Again, I thought I would say that new voted on in the House. We need a new constitutional Members would be slightly more objective in their settlement if we are to get off our knees and be an thoughts, as people can become a little institutionalised effective check on Executive power. Many of those in this place. However, having heard the right hon. proposals, as well as others, need to be looked at seriously. Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron 4.42 pm Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst), who have been here for many years, it is clear that serious thought has been Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): I join in the given and change has been made over time. A balance congratulations to the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion with the thoughts of newcomers—even aged ones such (Caroline Lucas) on securing the debate. I offer no as myself—will perhaps help. special insight, merely the random thoughts of a relative newcomer to the House. Regarding the debate about private Members’ Bills, we waste an awful amount of time—let us be honest—on We must be mindful of the balance between effective progressing those Bills which, we all know from the scrutiny of Government and allowing Government to outset, are going nowhere. A system of debate and achieve their business. I was elected not because the pre-legislative discussion of those measures would be people of Cleethorpes were sure that I would be a good helpful. and effective scrutineer of what the Government are doing. They voted for a Conservative Government—or Despite the fact that I have followed politics and perhaps against a Labour Government. There has to be parliamentary procedure closely for many years, I thought an effective balance. that Third Reading debates were more serious than they After the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion had are. Serious is the wrong word: they are somewhat brief. first circulated her thoughts on this matter, I recall The point has been made that when a Bill comes back saying to her when we were corralled on a tube train with considerable amendment that perhaps the Third that I never thought that I would be a moderniser. In Reading debate should be longer and more detailed, to fact, my first few months have edged me towards the give more Members an opportunity to take part. obvious need to act. Before being here, I served for I am a great supporter of the moves suggested by my 15 years as a constituency agent, and I am mindful of hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park (Zac how the confidence of the public in this place was Goldsmith), who was here earlier, such as increasing the dented by the revelations of the expenses scandal. Some, use of referendums and so on. Perhaps there could be a of course, have done things they ought not to have way for the public to trigger referendums, by having a done. However, the public perceived us all as guilty. We debate in this place and allowing them to take part, have moved some way to recreate the required confidence. before the trigger was pulled and a referendum seriously The question has been put about how to use our time considered. more effectively. I know that I am treading on dangerous I will finish there. The other points that I wanted to ground, but I rather support the hon. Lady and those make about confirmation hearings and so on have who have spoken in favour of electronic voting. The already been eloquently made. Time is short and I shall argument goes that voting is one of the few opportunities conclude. to rub shoulders with Ministers and bend their ear about one subject or another. I draw a parallel with our 4.49 pm constituents who come up to us in the supermarket and say, “I am glad I have seen you. Can I draw your Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab): I congratulate attention to the street light that has gone out?” One the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) hopes desperately that once home one remembers and on securing the debate. I was not sure about her constituency does something about it. When Cabinet Ministers are name, and I will refer to my lack of recall in such matters. harangued by half a dozen people in the space of I hesitated before taking part in the debate, because 10 minutes through the Lobby, I am sure that they are we, as politicians, must always be wary of talking about extremely conscientious and do their best, but I suspect ourselves, our experience and our institutions, when we that they do not always remember what has happened. do not perhaps connect them properly with our My hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough representative role. The hon. Lady has put the matter in (Mr Bone) spoke about people not knowing what they a proper context, because this is about effective governance. are voting for on every occasion. I am sure that “on As has been said by my right hon. Friend the Member every occasion” we would all plead guilty to some for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett), extent. He mentioned the Whips, but I think electronic there have been many shifts in the governance of Britain voting would weaken the role of the Whips. If one was over the past 10 to 15 years, such as devolution. It is not being pushed and edged into a particular Lobby—if therefore appropriate that we consider how effectively one was voting by merely pushing a button—one might we operate. feel a little freer from their pressures. Many hon. Members have mentioned how pertinent When I came to the debate, I thought I would insist the expenses scandal is, and how parliamentarians must that an hon. Member should be physically present to rise to the challenge. If we look at what is happening in vote. However, the hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir), the middle east, and at how far people are prepared to who was stranded for a couple of weeks, made a valid go to fight for democracy, how we operate our democracy point. If he has followed debates word for word—as I becomes significant. am sure he would on the Parliament channel—and has I hope that my contribution this afternoon will reflect read his briefings and knows the subject, there is an my experience in the Scottish Parliament, where I argument for saying that he should vote. He would continue—just about—to be a sitting Member. I have actually be helping the representation of his constituents been in that Parliament since its inception 12 years ago. 373WH Parliamentary Reform3 FEBRUARY 2011 Parliamentary Reform 374WH

[Margaret Curran] and reach that other Parliaments could learn from. There is no doubt that the British people look to this When I go back, I will return the fraternal greetings of Parliament as a platform for a national debate and a the hon. Member for Carmarthen West and South vehicle for certain views. It does not necessarily always Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart), who I am sure will be have to reflect their views, but it should be a place where welcomed back for more vibrant and lively debate. The views can be tested and rehearsed, hopefully with great Scottish Parliament has not been without its controversies, vibrancy or some degree of controversy. I do not say and I do not give it an unequivocally positive response. that everything in Westminster is wrong, or that because In my experience, there have been strengths and weaknesses something happens in a devolved context it is, by definition, along the way, and it is important to draw that to the more modern or advanced. attention of the House. My final point is about the accountability of In a sense, the Scottish Parliament was created to Government. That is a critical matter, and it is an area address the democratic deficit that was felt strongly in in which the Scottish Parliament has been disappointing, Scotland, because of the United Kingdom’s governance and there are things that need to be thought through. structures. When it was established, we did not want the For example, the current Scottish Government regularly Scottish Parliament to be a repeat of the Westminster lose votes in the Parliament and are reprimanded by model—we wanted it to be different. Three fundamental Parliament for their actions. However, that is consistently strands were embedded in that Parliament. One was ignored. There are all sorts of explanations and debates accountability, which I shall return to, because the about that, but it is significant in and of itself when the point about Executive power and how it is held to Executive—the Government—do not pay attention to account is important. The other two strands were the voice of Parliament. We should think about that in transparency and accessibility. Westminster. Urgent questions and topical questions Since I came to the House of Commons, I have had are more advanced in this Parliament, and I respectfully some interesting experiences and drawn some comparisons. say to the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion, who has I cannot imagine what would happen in Scotland if an made an enormous contribution, that the next stage of institution was created where Members were given priority this debate should be about how we use Parliament to in the queues or had special lifts assigned to them. hold the power of Government to account. We have There would be violent uprisings if that were the case heard some interesting remarks on that. and we considered ourselves so grand that we had to go I strongly support what has been said about changing ahead of others in the queue. the language of Parliament. I am more likely to remember someone’s name than their constituency. Terms such as Thomas Docherty: Perhaps my hon. Friend will wait “honourable”, “Friends” and “Members” are a barrier for the outcome of the Administration Committee’s to common sense and communication, and I hope that forthcoming report on catering. She might be interested the hon. Lady and the Procedure Committee will look in some of its conclusions. at that matter. My right hon. Friend the Member for Oldham West Margaret Curran: I look forward to that, and I hope and Royton (Mr Meacher) made some significant and that things improve. I wish to make some more substantial substantial points about how we hold Government—and points about issues that have been raised in the debate. the power of Government—to account, which is a vital Obviously, as a Scottish Member, the hours are of great debate. We must link the debate to the experience of our significance to me. I am torn on the issue of family-friendly constituents and make it about their lives. Somehow hours, but I am not sure it is a sound enough argument along the way, we are beginning to get there. to say that since hours cannot be family-friendly for all, they should be family-friendly for no one. We should perhaps look at ways in which we can make the hours 4.55 pm more family-friendly. I am also disturbed by the argument that states, “I came into this Parliament with my eyes Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): I congratulate wide open. I knew the hours and I knew I would have the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas)— difficulties getting back to my family.” That inhibits who is, of course, much better known as Caroline some people from standing for Parliament in the first Lucas—on her excellent debate. I do not wish to repeat place, and the way we work excludes a lot of people, the many points that she has made, and instead I will particularly women, which seems counter-intuitive to refer to a few things such as creeping patronage, new rational planning. politics and the role of the payroll vote. I agree with the In my first week or fortnight in the House, there was right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton a debate on rape anonymity, a subject in which I have a (Mr Meacher). What is a Back Bencher for? We exist great interest and have worked on in Scotland. The not only to represent our constituents, but to hold the debate was held at about half-past midnight or 1 o’clock Executive to account. It is disturbing that about 235 hon. in the morning. That was utterly absurd, and anyone Members out of 364 coalition MPs are on the payroll with any degree of common sense would agree. That is vote, and there are a floating number of Parliamentary not a proper and rational way to hold that kind of Private Secretaries—around 45 because the number varies. debate. I want to share my experience. I was elected by an Having said that, it is important not to throw out the unusual process because I came to this job through an baby with the bathwater. There is a lot that my colleagues open primary. I have no doubt that I was selected in the Scottish Parliament can look to Westminster for because I have no track record in politics. I have 24 years’ and learn from, and some traditional ways of doing experience in the health service, and I have experience in things are important. This Parliament has an authority education and as a police surgeon treating female victims 375WH Parliamentary Reform3 FEBRUARY 2011 Parliamentary Reform 376WH of domestic and sexual violence. That is why I am an important role, but examine Public Bill Committees. MP, and I promised that I would come to Westminster Our legislation would be much stronger if the people to stand up for the NHS. examining Bills— Shortly after I arrived—I am probably not allowed to say this—I was approached and asked whether I would Mr Carswell: Does my hon. Friend agree that the like to become a PPS. I went to the Library and asked solution to the problem is to ensure that all sitting for a briefing on the job description, because there are Members of Parliament, particularly those in the Whips no job descriptions in this place. I was told that I would Office, are subject to open primaries, if they want to be have to leave the Health Committee, never speak on the party candidate at the next election? health matters and always vote with the Government. How could I justify that to my constituents in Totnes? Dr Wollaston: What a marvellous idea! Obviously, I How could I look them in the eye if I chose my own say that open primaries are a good idea, and they have professional advancement? It is a Faustian pact. I would an important role in establishing a bit more credibility have welcomed the opportunity to spend more time for the House. Yes, the process is expensive, and my quietly behind the scenes, perhaps with Ministers, selection was criticised, but I see no reason why we influencing policy, but in reality that does not happen. I cannot combine open primaries, perhaps for several had to make a decision, which is wrong. I have no candidates and parties at the same time, and why that objection to the principle of a PPS, because one can see cannot be done through secure electronic voting or a how a Minister might lose touch with what is happening series of public meetings. The process does not have to on the Back Benches. However, I profoundly object to be vastly expensive, and it would certainly improve our the fact that people have to make a choice and always accountability. Of course, I have to play the role that I vote with the Government. I believe—I hope that hon. set out on the tin. I stood as a Conservative, and that Members agree with this—that there is something means that on the vast majority of occasions I will vote profoundly toxic in that. along Conservative lines, but with the important proviso that I have to represent a broader constituency. I have to Now that I have committed career suicide, I may as take into much greater account the feelings of those of well go in for a penny as in for a pound. One of the my constituents from across the board. What has been more bizarre experiences I had when I arrived as a new suggested would be a very valuable way forward. That is MP was the call from the Delegated Legislation Committee. a little vote from me for open primaries, but, as I have I had a call about an exciting Committee that was said, I must declare an interest. discussing double taxation in Oman. I know nothing much about single taxation, let alone double taxation—my Returning to Public Bill Committees, I do not think constituents can rest assured that I shall not be applying that the job description for a member of a Committee for the Treasury Committee or called to the Treasury. I should be to turn up on time, say nothing and vote with sat through that Committee, and I sent a worried note the Government. to the Whip in charge, wondering whether I had been put on the right Committee. I received a note to say that Several hon. Members rose— my only duties were to turn up on time, say nothing and vote with the Government. Mr Joe Benton (in the Chair): Order. I will call one Hon. Members can be confident that nobody died as more speaker, but there are only a couple of minutes left a result of my knowing nothing about double taxation before the start of the winding-up speeches. I call Joseph in Oman. However, could the same be said for the Johnson. Health and Social Care Bill? I would have liked to have been on the Health and Social Care Bill Committee, 5.2 pm because I genuinely feel that one of the reasons why I was elected to the House was to apply my experience in Joseph Johnson (Orpington) (Con): Thank you, medicine and medical education to the scrutiny of that Mr Benton. I congratulate the hon. Member for Brighton, Bill. The thing that I have found most enjoyable and Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) on securing the debate. My most useful in this place, apart from representing my speech will be very short, and I will not dwell on any constituents, has been serving on the Select Committee points that have been made before. on Health, which provides an opportunity for a real There is one proposal that has the potential, if adopted, cross-party, close examination of the issues, and I would not only to save time but to improve the image that we like to think that that would be the same for Public Bill project, both internally and externally. It is rather Committees. controversial, but we could save three or four minutes When I suggested to the Whips that one reason why I every day by not having Prayers in the main Chamber. wanted to be on the Health and Social Care Bill If we want to have Prayers, let us shift them into the Committee was so that I could table a few amendments, secondary Chamber—Westminster Hall. There are various I effectively—[Laughter.] I examined the list for the reasons why we should make that move. First, it is Bill Committee and saw that my name was missing. important that Parliament reflects the country as it Many members of the Committee have a genuine interest is today. It is increasingly not a monotheistic country in health matters, which I welcome, but I regret to say —we are not an overwhelmingly Christian country any that several members have no experience in, and have more. never expressed any interest in, health or social care. The country should be concerned about that. I put it to Mr Bone: My hon. Friend is making a hopeless point, the Procedure Committee that we not only examine the but in a very good way. Is it not correct that, in a recent role of Parliamentary Private Secretaries and remove poll, 75% of British people thought that they were them from the payroll vote while retaining their only Christians? 377WH Parliamentary Reform3 FEBRUARY 2011 Parliamentary Reform 378WH

Joseph Johnson: That is as may be, but institutionalised will hear deployed too often when we come to debate prayer and congregational worship have fallen out of some of the other changes that have been discussed this practice in this country over the past century, as people afternoon, because the response to any proposal put may notice from the attendance at their local church. I forward by hon. Members should be that it will be am not against going to church, which is something that considered on its merits. We certainly should not argue, people should feel free to do, but it is something that “Well, we’ve always done it this way.” We should argue MPs should be encouraged to do in their own time. the case, listen to the different views—we have heard a There are plenty of places of worship in the Palace of very wide range of views this afternoon—and make a Westminster for them to go to if they want to be put in a decision. God-fearing state of mind at the start of play. I can The work of the Wright Committee and others has recommend the chapel of St Mary Undercroft. It has meant that real change has happened. The election of some fine— Select Committee Chairs and membership has been a very important step in taking those positions away from Chris Bryant: It is hideous. the power of Governments and Whips and putting them in the hands of hon. Members. Select Committees Joseph Johnson: It has some fine depictions of the are a very powerful force in the House. The change has fates of those who are not sufficiently respectful of been an important assertion of the principle of independent others in their daily activities. There are plenty of ways scrutiny of what the Executive do. for MPs to put themselves in the right frame of mind—a More urgent questions have been granted. I pay selfless frame of mind—at the start of play.Institutionalised tribute, if one can without breaching parliamentary worship in the main Chamber is not a good use of order, to Mr Speaker, because he has certainly increased everyone’s time. the number that are granted. The fact that more Back Benchers are now called to ask questions—business 5.5 pm questions and others—has helped to re-energise the Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab): I join other hon. Chamber. Members in congratulating the hon. Member for For me, however, the most significant change of the Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) on securing for us lot has been the creation of the Backbench Business this debate, with the support of the Backbench Committee. In fairness, a reading of history would Business Committee. The turnout shows how many probably suggest that the Executive really grabbed control hon. Members want to discuss the subject. For me, of time at some point in the 17th century. The creation what ran like a thread through all the speeches this of the Backbench Business Committee has wrested afternoon was a passion for this place because of what back for Back Benchers the opportunity to determine it can do for the people whom we represent. That is what we debate, how we debate it and whether it is put why this issue matters. to a vote. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member Like others, I pay tribute to those who have worked for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel) for the to bring about reform, including, certainly in the past skill with which she has chaired the Committee and for year or so, the Wright Committee. I pay tribute to the the really open way in which she and the other members former Leader of the House, my right hon. and learned of the Committee meet every week and say to hon. Friend the Member for Camberwell and Peckham Members, “Come and tell us what you want to discuss.” (Ms Harman), and to the current Leader of the House The salon, so christened by the Leader of the House, for the work that they have done to improve the way in is an open and transparent way for Members to have which Parliament operates. the chance to say, “This is what we would like to The other thing that has been striking about today’s discuss.” It is a profound change, and we are still getting debate is the number of hon. Members who have come to grips with it, but one occasion crystallises the force of along and said, “My mind has been moved by my the change in my mind. That was the first of the experience in the House.” It is very encouraging to see Backbench Business Committee’s debates, on contaminated so many newly elected Members here. People’s minds blood, which included a vote. I have never encountered have also been moved by the quality of the argument such a thing in my time in the House. We have seen that and the force of the case that has been put. We owe a same force in this afternoon’s debates, and there will be lot to the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion for the another example next week with the debate on voting cogent and forceful way in which she has argued the rights for prisoners. case. The hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir) referred to Mr Bone: The right hon. Gentleman has made an recent events surrounding the resignation of the hon. interesting point. On transparency—he was discussing Member for Belfast West. The Leader of the House has votes—does he share my desire that, in order for people been so good as to come and listen to the debate, to see what is really going on in Parliament, if voting is although he is not winding up. When I suggested a organised by the business manager, in other words it change in the system, because I believe that if a is whipped, it should be displayed in public and recorded Member wants to resign, they ought to be able to write in Hansard? If the party is whipping people to vote in a to the Speaker and say, “I hereby resign from the particular way, those outside should be able to see it. House of Commons,” the Leader of the House chided me slightly by saying that our procedure for the Chris Bryant: They could tweet it. Chiltern hundreds had stood us in good stead for, as I recall, some 260 years and the Government were not Hilary Benn: From a sedentary position, my hon. inclined to change it. His reputation as a reformer goes Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) suggests before him. I trust that that is not an argument that we how it could be done. 379WH Parliamentary Reform3 FEBRUARY 2011 Parliamentary Reform 380WH

I am not convinced that that is the most urgent of the everybody does it is to say that those who want to table reforms that is needed. The truth is that there is a an amendment must offer an explanation or it will not tension here. On the one hand, we are members of be considered. parties; some are on their own and others have more Turning to the broader questions, many hon. Members around them, but that is part of the reason why we are have mentioned balancing competing pressures on time, elected to this place. We may or may not have great and we happen to be sitting in one of the solutions. The qualities as individuals, but we are elected because of Adjournment debates that take place in Westminster what we represent, but that bringing together enables Hall are hugely important for Back Benchers who want Parliament to do business. The other part of the tension to raise issues and get an answer from Ministers. A is how that impinges on Members exercising their number of ideas relating to that have been suggested by independent judgment, a point that I shall return to in a the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan moment. Haselhurst) and others. The Procedure Committee has I welcome the Procedure Committee’s report on recommended that we use this place to question Ministers ministerial statements, and its inquiry into sitting hours. on written ministerial statements, which is a most sensible I sense that we have a moment for further reform. suggestion that I hope the House will adopt. The other Today’s debate demonstrates that, not least because question is who should control the time, as we seek to there are long-standing Members here today who have expand it to deal with the competing demands. expressed an interest and shared their views with us, The second matter is the fundamental one of the and there are many new Members here—a large number balance of power between the legislature and the Executive. of new Members. That is why the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion has done us such a great service. One thing that struck me today, which is not always the case Chris Bryant: By convention, constitutional Bills are in all debates, was that as the hon. Lady spoke—indeed, dealt with entirely on the Floor of the House. In practice, as all hon. Members spoke—every one of us was listening the process of going through them line by line means intently to what was being said, which is how it should that we end up with fewer hours of debate. I wonder be. That is a characteristic of Westminster Hall, and whether there is a means of having those debates in sometimes—and sometimes not—it is a characteristic Westminster Hall, so as to allow a longer debate, more of the main Chamber, which tells us something about in the style of a normal sitting on the Committee the importance of our discussion. corridor, but with the votes still being held in the main Chamber. Turning to the specific proposals, I agree that we should consider ways to provide greater certainty about Hilary Benn: That would be one way of addressing when votes are taking place, and I am all for considering some of the pressures that we have been discussing. I ways to speed up the process. However, the chance for shall return in a moment to how we could take it all Members to come together collectively is important, forward. and it is the reason for the proposed change. On sitting hours, I am in favour of returning to 11.30 am to 7 pm I was a local councillor for 20 years and, picking up on Tuesdays, and I am in favour of moving private on a point made by my right hon. Friend the Member Members’ Bills to Tuesday or Wednesday evenings. It is for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher), when I wrong that Members should have to make a choice on a was first elected to the House, I was astonished at the Friday between their constituency responsibilities—many lack of scrutiny of expenditure, because councillors choose to exercise them, myself included—and considering went through every year’s budget line by line. We have a legislation. Like my right hon. Friend the Member for lot of means by which to hold the Executive to account, Lewisham, Deptford (Joan Ruddock), I agree that Bills if we choose to exercise them, and we can discuss ways should be disposed of by a vote and not by trying to to acquire more means. My right hon. Friend has made talk them out. a number of suggestions on that point. The third question is how Parliament is seen and Joan Ruddock: I ask my right hon. Friend to confirm covered by the media. I regret the fact that there is more that when we sat three hours earlier on Tuesdays, it was commentary and sketch writing about what is said in possible for all Parliament’s business to function perfectly Parliament than there is reporting of what parliamentarians well, including the Speaker, the Committees, the staff say. It is a bit like “Match of the Day” having about five and everyone else. Those hours have huge value, because minutes of football and 55 minutes of analysis. We have they provide the scope for private Members’ Bills and to get the balance right, but it is up to us. the certainty of Friday being a constituency day. We should think back to the tuition fees debate, when a wide range of views was expressed. That day, the eyes Hilary Benn: I agree completely. The neatness to the of the nation were on Parliament. My son told me that solution of having private Members’ Bills on Tuesday he went to the bar at university and saw something that or Wednesday evenings is this. One of the arguments he had never seen before—students watching the Parliament against the old hours was that, “Well, the place is dead channel on television. On that day, people were looking in the evenings,” but there would be plenty to discuss for to us, because we were debating something important. those who wish to stay and take part. That would When the bankers appeared before the Treasury acknowledge the fact that we have responsibilities to Committee—those folk had contributed somewhat to our constituencies, which we all understand, and would the economic difficulties that we face—people were not put us in a bind. interested in the process. As for amendments and explanations, I am absolutely The fourth question is how we legislate. I agree with in favour of the recommendation. We had an experiment, the hon. Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) and but not everyone did so. A simple way to ensure that others about the benefit of pre-legislative scrutiny. With 381WH Parliamentary Reform3 FEBRUARY 2011 Parliamentary Reform 382WH

[Hilary Benn] I also say that this is a triumph for the Backbench Business Committee, and I am so pleased that the the benefit of some ministerial experience, I can say that Leader of the House has been able to sit through the Governments of all colours do not draft perfect legislation. debate. I hope that he is here not to ensure that I do not The notion that the Government should unveil legislation say something completely out of order but because he, in the House and then repel all boarders, wherever they like me, shares a zeal for reform. The best thing that we come from, is nonsense. The act of scrutinising legislation, have done so far in this House is create the Backbench both pre-legislative and in Committee, means that we Business Committee, which we argued for in opposition, end up with better legislation, which is what we want. which the Wright Committee proposed and which we That process tests the legislation, and things that have now have doing its job. Without the Backbench Business not been thought of are exposed. I agree with those Committee, we would not have had the two well-subscribed, who say that we should have the chance to vote on relevant debates in the main Chamber today and this proposals, and not see them slip off the edge of the debate happening here. We can contrast that with the Order Paper. The Government should have the courage lacklustre, so-called topical debates that we had in the of the argument and respect the vote. previous Parliament, which were chosen by the Leader Turning to how representative we are, we have not of the House. Those debates were neither topical nor touched on House of Lords reform, because that would debates, because Members were not really interested in have taken all of our time, but I am wholly in favour of them, so we have made a huge stride in the way in which the second Chamber being 100% elected. It should be we work. Of course, there are many other things that part of the system of checks and balances while have happened, such as the election of Committees and recognising that the first elected Chamber should their Chairs, which is directly relevant to what the hon. ultimately have its way. Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) has said. She is able Where do we go now? We need a process to take to be a member of the Health Committee because she forward the ferment of ideas that we have heard this has the confidence of her colleagues rather than the afternoon, and we must not lose the moment—for patronage of the Whips, which is an important distinction. reasons that many Members have mentioned. The Two themes underlie our debate. One is how we make Procedure Committee, which is ably chaired by the right this House more efficient in the way in which it does its hon. Member for East Yorkshire (Mr Knight)—I am job, so that Members of Parliament can do their jobs sorry that he is not well and we have sent our best better. The other—this picks up the point that was very wishes to him—is the furnace from which the ideas well made by the hon. Member for Carmarthen West should come. The ideas should be presented to us; we and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart)—relates to making can debate them and then have a chance to vote on this House fit for purpose, which is both relevant and a them. Completely different views have been expressed matter of good governance. I agree that we reached this afternoon, which is great. In the end, though, we a nadir of parliamentary performance a couple of years have to have a mechanism for deciding whether or not ago. It coincided, as it happened, with the expenses we are going to do something. Voting is a wonderful scandal, and amplified it because the general public way in which we can try to reconcile the apparently were saying, “These people are abusing the system, and irreconcilable. what use are they anyway, because Parliament is not Finally, why does this all matter? My hon. Friend the doing the job for which we elected it—holding the Member for Glasgow East (Margaret Curran) expressed Executive to account?” it on behalf of us all when she said that people look to Making the House more efficient and improving this Parliament to be the forum for national debate. good governance are not mutually exclusive. In fact, the They want to see that their voices are heard. They want situation is the reverse, because they are complementary. to see us solving their problems and they want their The key word—it has been used many times—is balance. hopes and aspirations realised by what we do. In the There are countervailing balances all the way through words of the prayer, we seek the proceedings. For individuals, it is how they use their “to improve the condition of all mankind”— time—in their constituencies, in the Chamber and with I would change that to humankind—and it is good to their families, which we often forget as part of the reflect on that when we start the day. The truth is that equation. There are competing pressures on their time our democracy is our best and only hope of doing those when they are actually in Parliament. There are Select things; it is our Parliament, so let us make it work for Committees, Public Bill Committees, the main Chamber the people whom we have the privilege of representing. and this place. The hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) had to leave this debate to be in 5.20 pm another debate in which she has a keen interest, which The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of demonstrates how we have to balance those pressures. the House of Commons (Mr David Heath): It has been a There is the further balance between legislation and great pleasure to listen to this debate, and I congratulate scrutiny, which are both important. The key is time. the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) Very often people make mutually impossible demands on securing it. on the programme of the House. They say, “We want I am pleased that so many new Members have come more time to scrutinise Bills.” At the same time, they along and contributed. The hon. Member for North say, “We want more statements before the House.” East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel) hit the nail on the Then they say, “We want more opportunities to see end when she said that there is a brief moment before Ministers in the Chamber, but we do not want the hours we become institutionalised by this place where we to be any longer, and we do not want the recesses to be actually see things as others see them. It is important any shorter. We want all these things to happen within that we have that perspective and make use of it. the same short period that we have available as 383WH Parliamentary Reform3 FEBRUARY 2011 Parliamentary Reform 384WH parliamentarians.”Sometimes, we have to strike a balance. off the G to M section during a vote. [Interruption.] Part of that balance is ensuring that legislation, which is There are 20% more in our column than in the other a key part of this House’s work, is scrutinised effectively two columns, so I have a partisan view on that. and that there is time for that to happen and for the Government to put forward legislation in a proper way. Sir Alan Haselhurst: I refresh the Deputy Leader of the House’s mind that there was one occasion when the Mr Bone: We are very lucky today to have the presence England football team were involved in a critical World of three outstanding parliamentarians—the Leader of cup match. A Division occurred in the middle of the the House, the Deputy Leader of the House and the match and it was accomplished in nine minutes. Where shadow Leader of the House. When we were in opposition, there is a will, there is a way. we were united in our opposition to programme motions and the reduction in time. I still hold that view, although Mr Heath: Yes, sometimes. Congestion is a problem— I am not entirely sure whether the Leader of the House perhaps we should have a congestion charge in the and the Deputy Leader of the House still do. Perhaps Lobbies. the answer to my problem is the introduction of a There are obvious arguments in favour of occasional business of the House committee. What does the Deputy deferred voting. However, there are also problems with Leader of the House say to that? sequential amendments, which were outlined by the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Mr Heath: As the hon. Gentleman knows, we are Haselhurst). We need to look at how that problem committed to bringing forward a full business of the might be managed if occasional deferred voting is to House committee. We will not do so until we have seen proceed, but that is another matter for the House to the way in which the Backbench Business Committee consider. has operated, so that we can learn from experience. Regarding abstentions, it has always struck me as Certainly, the early experiences have been good. We odd that we have no way of differentiating between an should be able to move towards a sensible use of time in abstention and an absenteeism. There is no way of this Chamber even without such a Committee, but that knowing that a right hon. Member or hon. Member is needs a degree of co-operation and a bit of grown-up here in Parliament but has chosen not to vote for the politics, so that when we provide more time for Bills it is options before the House. Of course, the results of used sensibly and not used exclusively by Opposition votes are now recorded electronically and are sent around Front Benchers to the exclusion of Back Benchers. Such the country. Constituents believe that their MP simply issues are important for the whole House. We should was not there rather than that they were there, had ensure that the issues that parliamentarians wish to listened to the arguments made in the debate and were address have sufficient time to be addressed properly. not persuaded by either of the positions that were When we come to a sensible agreement, we should keep taken. to it, because it benefits everybody. My plea is that we discuss these matters, both informally and formally, I hope that we will make progress on private Members’ stick to agreements and try to find the right time for Bills. As has already been said, the Procedure Committee everybody to have their say. is looking at that issue. Regarding explanations for amendments, we had the I want briefly to deal with some of the issues that experiment in Committee and I am certainly happy, as have been raised in debate. For many of them, I will far as the Government are concerned, for that experiment simply say, “It is not a matter for Government.” I to proceed. Perhaps we ought to look at having such will be right, because it is a matter for the House. The explanations on Report, too. I have argued that occasionally House, in both my mind and the mind of the Leader of there is room for rubric on motions, including the type the House, has a key role to play. We have the Procedure of business motion that appears late at night before the Committee considering sitting hours. There are very House that is completely inexplicable to most Members strong views on either side of the argument. It is not a of the House but is actually entirely benign. I think that question of right and a wrong, but a question of what is we can speed up our progress, but I have been told by least bad for many Members. I am looking forward to the Clerks that we cannot possibly put a bit of rubric on the options that the Procedure Committee will produce the Order Paper to explain why we are doing it. I do not for the House to consider. know why that is the case. As for electronic voting, when I was first elected back Parliamentary language is an issue that we could in 1997, we discussed whether the current voting system debate all evening and I will not enter into it other than is sensible. The Modernisation Committee cogitated for to say that we have heard the arguments on both sides. six months before coming up with its conclusion, which was to do away with the two Clerks on high stools The additional use of Westminster Hall is an important solemnly ticking us all off as we filed past and dramatically issue. The right hon. Member for Saffron Walden was replace it with three Clerks on high stools ticking us all one of the pioneers of its additional use. He is not an off, which was the extent of modernisation in this old fogey. He pioneered real innovation in this House in House. That was the decision of the House. The House helping to create this Chamber, and if we can use it wanted to keep to its system, because it was argued that more effectively we should do so. We ought to look at that was the way in which Members could rub shoulders that issue. with Ministers. As an Opposition Member, I could Regarding the legislative process, pre-legislative scrutiny never quite see when I would get to rub shoulders with a is important, and this Government are committed to it. Minister. It is an issue that is perfectly proper for us to By the end of this Session, we will have subjected far consider. I am struggling at the moment to persuade the more Bills to a process of pre-legislative scrutiny than Clerks of the House that they need to take a few people the previous Government did in the final Session of the 385WH Parliamentary Reform3 FEBRUARY 2011 Parliamentary Reform 386WH

[Mr Heath] Committee and the Liaison Committee. There are a number of people who have an interest in this issue, and previous Parliament. It has not happened yet simply there is a legitimate discussion to be had about whether because we are a new Government, and inevitably with the House has the right vehicle to take the debate about new legislation one has to start somewhere, otherwise the issue forward. However, I am absolutely convinced the whole system grinds to a halt. However, we are that the debate needs to be taken forward and we, as a certainly committed to that process, as we are to the process Government, will certainly make every attempt to support of post-legislative scrutiny. Indeed, some of the levers that view. for that are already there in the hands of the Select Committees, if they choose to use them. 5.35 pm The issue of commissions of inquiry was raised by the right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton Sir Peter Soulsby (Leicester South) (Lab): Thank (Mr Meacher). He might remember that, before I was in you, Mr Benton. It is a pleasure to reply to this debate my present not-very-exalted position, I introduced a on behalf of the Procedure Committee. As the Minister Bill to allow commissions of inquiry. There is a strong has reminded Members, I do so because of the illness of argument for them, and I am engaging with Ministers the right hon. Member for East Yorkshire (Mr Knight), to see whether there will be a legislative opportunity for who is the Chair of our Select Committee but who had doing exactly as he wishes. all the symptoms of flu last night. For his sake and for Regarding scrutiny of expenditure, we have already ours, it was felt best that he retired to his bed. had the clear line of sight programme from the Treasury, It is very evident, from the number of Members who which is important and which has allowed a degree of have been in Westminster Hall for this debate today and co-ordination in scrutinising expenditure, but we can go the passion with which they have spoken, that a series of further in allowing the House to scrutinise Government issues have been discussed that we undoubtedly need to expenditure more effectively. Again, however, the Select take account of. The members of the Procedure Committee Committees have an important scrutiny role, which were here, along with a number of other Members, and they have not fully exploited. As for lobbyists, we intend I am sure that the other members of the Committee will to introduce legislation shortly to deal with their registration. correct me if I do anything other than express the views I agree that that is an important issue, too. of the Committee. As I say, these are matters that we I will start to wind up now, Mr Benton, because the need to take account of and we will take account of hon. Member for Leicester South (Sir Peter Soulsby), them. We are very grateful to have had the opportunity who will speak for the Procedure Committee—I am so to hear the debate. sorry that the right hon. Member for East Yorkshire I join others in congratulating the hon. Member for (Mr Knight), the Chairman of the Committee, is indisposed Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) on securing this today and is unable to be here—wishes to speak. timely debate. Any person who listened to the debate The problem that we had with the previous Government but was not actually in the room with us would be was their attempt to lead the House’s modernisation heartened by the fact that it was virtually impossible to agenda themselves, by using the Modernisation Committee, tell which party Members were from as they contributed chairing it and then effectively abandoning it in the final to the debate. It has been clear that we are united in our months and years of the previous Parliament. We are passion not only to restore the reputation of the House making real progress on a wide front in reforming but to enhance its effectiveness in representing our Parliament, and where there is a need for legislation we constituents, in holding the Government to account will introduce it. The procedure and processes of the and in scrutinising legislation. House are a matter for the House itself, and we are keen I pay tribute, very briefly, to some of those who have that the House takes the lead on those issues. We might paved the way in the past for this debate. The right hon. have clear views, and we will express them, but as a Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher) Government we should not impose processes on the spoke very passionately. It is worth reflecting on the fact House. that he currently chairs an important cross-party group, Parliament First, which paved the way for much of the Ann Coffey: Will the Deputy Leader of the House agenda that we have talked about today. Back in 2003, give way? the group published a short but very influential paper called “Parliament’s Last Chance”, which is still available Mr Heath: Very quickly. in the House of Commons Library. In that paper, the group set out an agenda for improving scrutiny and Ann Coffey: Part of the issue is that it is only business accountability, for direct engagement with the public managers who can put motions before the House. Is the and, most important of all and fundamental to what we Minister saying that when the Procedure Committee have discussed today, about how Parliament—particularly comes up with recommendations, those recommendations those of us in the Commons—can regain control over will go to the House to be voted on? our own affairs and thereby enable ourselves to do our job properly. Mr Heath: We have a new procedure that involves the I also pay tribute to another Member who is not able Backbench Business Committee, which is why we are to be with us today, my hon. Friend the Member for having this debate today and which is the really significant Nottingham North (Mr Allen). He wrote a very useful advance. However, I accept that there are different foci pamphlet that has helped to set the agenda, called “The for reform in Parliament at the moment. There are the Last Prime Minister”. It was somewhat apocalyptic in business managers, the Leader of the House and myself, its title but none the less influential in the agenda that it the Backbench Business Committee, the Procedure set out. 387WH Parliamentary Reform3 FEBRUARY 2011 Parliamentary Reform 388WH

Of course I pay tribute, as other Members have done, times we meet, the places where we meet—whether the to Tony Wright, the former Member for Cannock Chase. main Chamber or here in Westminster Hall—and, most While many of the rest of us were despairing of what important of all, the business that we conduct. was happening around us during the expenses scandal, In taking forward our agenda—this was very much he saw the opportunity of that crisis to set out an pressed on us by the House—the Committee issued just agenda for reform, including proposing the establishment yesterday a timely report on ministerial statements. The of the Reform of the House of Commons Committee, a report looks at how the House can ensure that it is the number of whose members are here today. He also first to hear the detail of important Government statements, pressed an agenda on that Committee for a menu of instead of them being released by the press, with us items for reform that have enabled us—both the last following far behind trying to pick up the pieces, and Government and the present Government—to do much responding to the debate rather than setting it. Fundamental of what has been achieved of late. to that, and to the work of the Procedure Committee, is We have seen the establishment of the election of our the principle that Parliament should be at the centre of Speaker and of our Deputy Speakers, and even more the national debate. significantly than those two changes we have seen the I was pleased that the Deputy Leader of the House establishment of the election of Select Committee Chairs spoke again of the reforming zeal possessed by him and and a proper, transparent system for appointing his colleague, the Leader of the House, whom I have membership, which has taken those appointments beyond been delighted to see with us throughout this debate, the reach of the patronage of party and Whip. That has and I press on him once more the vital importance of undoubtedly continued to enhance the reputation of the recommendation in the Wright Committee’s report, the work of the Select Committees, and enabled them which we as the Procedure Committee will pick up, to truly to speak on behalf of Members across the parties, take forward the House business committee. I think in holding the Government and others to account. that we are all enormously impressed by the work that is being done by the Backbench Business Committee under The Procedure Committee is very aware that it needs the chairmanship of my hon. Friend the Member for to take forward the changes that have already been North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel), and by the made. In her introduction, the hon. Member for Brighton, difference that it has made to our ability to be effective Pavilion talked about us having a long way to go. in our jobs as parliamentarians and Members of the We have achieved a lot, but she is entirely right. The House of Commons. However, I think that we are all Modernisation Committee is well aware that we have a aware that although the Government have a right to get long way to go, and knows that it picks up the responsibility their business through the House, the House has a of the Wright Committee to drive forward change and responsibility to ensure that that business is properly reform. scrutinised. At the heart of guaranteeing that is the way We already have on our agenda a number of matters in which time is allocated and the way in which we as that have come from the Wright report, and we have Members of Parliament have the opportunity to ensure already looked at some of the issues raised by right hon. that business is properly scrutinised, whether it is in its and hon. Members during this debate, for example the early pre-legislative scrutiny stages or is passing formally proposed explanatory statements on amendments. We through the various stages in the House. Part of that, have looked at the use of hand-held devices, and at and beyond the establishment of a House business issues raised by the Wright Committee that were not committee, are questions about how Public Bill Committees picked up by the Government of the time, such as the are able to scrutinise legislation. recommendation to have lay members on the Standards On behalf of the Select Committee, I want to give a and Privileges Committee. Important as those issues reassurance that we are aware that the issue of how we are, a much more significant issue on our agenda is one restore the ability of the House to do its job properly is that many Members have mentioned: the hours we sit, vital. I also reassure those present that the members of the days when we sit, and what we do when we are here. the Procedure Committee have been listening to this A number of Members have touched on the difficulty debate, even those who are not physically present, and of drawing up a job description for a Member of that we recognise our responsibility to respond effectively Parliament, and undoubtedly there is much to be discussed to the concerns that have been raised and the suggestions about the balance between what we do in our constituencies that have been made, and to do so in a timely fashion. and what we do here at Westminster. However, all of us Question put and agreed to. on the Procedure Committee are aware that there is a range of important issues that we need to discuss, 5.44 pm concerning the options for the days when we meet, the Sitting adjourned.

47WS Written Ministerial Statements3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 48WS

as additional pensions (state earnings-related pension Written Ministerial and state second pension). Public service pensions will therefore be increased from 11 April 2011 by 3.1% in Statements line with the annual increase in the consumer prices index up to September 2010, except for those public service pensions which have been in payment for less Thursday 3 February 2011 than a year, which will receive a pro rata increase.

BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Parliamentary Written Question (Correction)

The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David European Regional Development Fund (Revised Willetts): I regret that because of an administrative Management Arrangements) error two parliamentary questions tabled by the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) were answered incorrectly, on 20 January, Official Report, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for column 916W with the hon. Member receiving the same Communities and Local Government (Andrew Stunell): reply provided to the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of (Meg Munn), on 20 January, Official Report, column 918W. State, Baroness Hanham, has made the following written The correct answers are:- ministerial statement: Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State, Department I am today announcing a series of changes I will be making to for Business, Innovation and Skills, what plans he has the operation and delivery of the European Regional Development for the promotion of women’s networks in science, Fund (ERDF) in England. technology, engineering and mathematics following ERDF is a key driver for economic growth and the sub-national the withdrawal of funding to the UK Resource Centre agenda and I have seen for myself some of the benefits it has for Women in Science Engineering and Technology. brought to local communities. The operation of ERDF is governed (33709) by complex European regulations and comes with stringent penalties if those are not met. As the Secretary of State outlined in a Mr Willetts: My Department will continue to engage departmental press notice of 7 July 2010, the new Government with those partners and stakeholders who have a inherited up to £150 million of potential liabilities from the strong interest in this agenda, and who will be able to previous Government due to financial and administrative irregularities. assist BIS in increasing its impact on this important It is vital that taxpayers have confidence that their money is not issue in the future. being wasted. Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State, Department ERDF is currently delivered by teams in the regional development for Business, Innovation and Skills, what plans he has agencies. Following our decision to abolish these agencies and for the collation and publication of statistics on encourage local communities to come together to form economic women working in the fields of science, technology, partnerships that make sense for them, I have concluded that in order to maintain compliance with the regulations and spending engineering and mathematics following the withdrawal momentum, we should transfer the existing ERDF staff and of funding for the UK Resource Centre for Women functions into my Department by the beginning of July. in Science, Engineering and Technology. (33710) In London, the Greater London Authority is establishing a Mr Willetts: Statistics on both STEM employment housing and regeneration division from parts of the London and study can be obtained from a number of sources Development Agency and the London elements of the Homes including the Office for National Statistics (ONS), and Communities Agency. So I have concluded that, in line with the Labour Force Survey (LFS), the publications of the steps we are taking in the Localism Bill to transfer power and the Learned Societies and National Academies, the functions to the Mayor of London, the Greater London Authority Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) and the is well placed to continue to operate ERDF in the capital. Higher Education Funding Council for England We want to encourage local communities to make use of (HEFCE) among others. These sources publish data ERDF. This is more likely to happen if ERDF teams continue to be located close to the places they serve so they are on hand to and analyses that include breakdowns by gender. offer support and advice to projects. So I have decided that we My officials will continue to work with UKRC to build must aim to locate the ERDF teams as far as possible in their on their experience of the provision of high-quality existing towns or cities. data on women in STEM. Should it become clear that We are committed to giving localities and communities greater further collation and analysis of the widely available control and greater influence over the programmes and services gender-related statistics on the STEM workforce would delivered in their areas. To help achieve this, I have decided that be of tangible benefit, then we will determine which we should restructure existing Programme Monitoring Committees of our partners would be best placed to lead this work. as Local Management Committees which can ensure that, within the parameters already agreed with the EU, local people and I have written to the hon. Member for Newcastle businesses can influence the shape of the programme. These upon Tyne Central to apologise for the error. Committees give strategic direction to the operational programmes and ensure that they are delivered compliantly and that outputs TREASURY are delivered. I will be looking to ensure that the local representatives from across the public, private, voluntary and community and local authority sectors are represented on the Local Management Public Service Pensions Committees. I am committed to ensuring my Department plays a key role in The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): ensuring that the delivery of ERDF remains compliant with EU Legislation governing public service pensions requires regulations. To deliver that, I have decided that a DCLG director them to be increased annually by the same percentage will chair the Local Management Committees. But to underline 49WS Written Ministerial Statements3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 50WS our commitment to localism, I have also decided that a significant The correct information is as follows: figure from the local community should be appointed as a deputy chair of the Local Management Committee, to ensure that the We have received letters from 12 private individuals, ERDF programmes are overseen and shaped by local people. We one Member of Parliament on behalf of an unnamed will work with local communities to determine who should occupy constituent, one not-for-profit organisation and one this role. private company on this issue. However, this does not We will be working closely with the existing membership of the include all representations where Sheffield Forgemasters Programme Monitoring Committees and other local representatives might have been just one of the issues raised in a letter. to determine the practical details of the changes I want to make. To search all the correspondence that might contain a That will include the role of the Local Management Committees, representation on Sheffield Forgemasters would incur how the deputy chair and membership will be selected and what disproportionate cost underpinning arrangements they will need. Finally, as we said in the “Local Growth” White Paper, we I apologise to the hon. Member and to the House for want to make it easier for local communities to access all elements this error. of regeneration funding, so my Department is working with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to determine EU Emissions Trading System Registries (Suspension of the scope to align the application processes for ERDF and the Transfers) regional growth fund. We will also be looking to ensure that this new process delivers greater efficiency through limiting duplication. The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Gregory Barker): On 19 January, following CABINET OFFICE a number of successful cyber attacks on EU member states’ emissions trading system (EU ETS) registries, Mental Health Act 1983 (Repeal of Section 141) the European Commission suspended all internal and international transactions within all the EU ETS registries. The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark These registries are the repositories for EU emission Harper): Section 141 of the Mental Health Act 1983 allowances and an important part of carbon market sets out a process by which MPs are to vacate their seats trading. if they have a mental health condition and are authorised The UK agreed with the European Commission that to be detained under mental health legislation for a EU member states should not be able to reopen registries period of six months or more. The process involves the until they had provided sufficient evidence to the European Speaker of the House of Commons receiving reports Commission that their registries meet a number of from registered medical practitioners. If the Speaker minimum security requirements. The UK registry is receives two such reports, six months apart, that the MP widely seen as one of the most secure registries in is in such detention, the Speaker lays both reports Europe with at least one market participant recommending before the House of Commons and the MP’s seat this week its clients should use the UK registry. The automatically becomes vacant. Section 141 also applies UK’s registry administrator, the Environment Agency, in relation to the devolved assemblies with the presiding earlier this week submitted the required evidence to the officer of each assembly performing the functions of Commission. We have received confirmation this morning the Speaker. that the UK registry will reopen on Friday 4 February Although the provisions in section 141 have never at 7 am. been used, this section is symptomatic of an outdated While it is important to ensure a minimum level of attitude towards mental illness which is out of touch security now to ensure the reopening of the registries, with the modern understanding of mental health. It the UK will continue to press the European Commission treats mental ill health differently from physical ill health. to ensure that registry security across Europe is raised It sends out the message that if you have a mental above this level. This is vital to ensure continued confidence health condition, your contribution is not welcome in in this growing market. public life. That is a message this Government wish to The temporary suspension of registry transfers has change. had an impact on the carbon market, though this has This Government agree with the all-party parliamentary been concentrated in spot trading, (which allows for group on mental health that section 141 should be instant delivery of allowances bought on the secondary repealed as soon as possible—a view endorsed by the market), which represents only 10% of trading on the Speaker’s Conference (on Parliamentary Representation) carbon market. The futures market, which is predominately Final Report (2010) HC 239-1, paragraph 327. based in the UK and accounts for the remaining 90% of We will introduce provisions to repeal section 141 at the carbon market, has shown only a limited level of the earliest opportunity. disruption. Trading here has continued at broadly the same volumes as before the registries were closed and the impact on the EU emission allowance price has ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE been limited. Parliamentary Written Question (Correction) FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Jordan Climate Change (Charles Hendry): I would like to inform the House that a written answer I gave on 13 December 2010, Official Report, column 523W to the hon. Member for The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) contained some inadvertent Affairs (Mr William Hague): The Minister of State, errors in relation to the number of representations received Foreign and Commonwealth Office, Lord Howell of on Sheffield Forgemasters. Guildford, made the following statement: 51WS Written Ministerial Statements3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 52WS

“Jordan is a close ally and we value the support they offer on Parliaments for all member states. Moreover, the UK is regional issues such as the middle east peace process. We are explicitly excluded from sanctions under the stability watching closely the situation in Jordan following the disbanding and growth pact, as the taskforce report states: of the cabinet. It is important that Jordan continues its programme (para 18.ii) “strengthened enforcement measures need of political and economic reform. We will work with the Jordanian Government to support that goal.” to be implemented for all EU member states, except the UK as a consequence of protocol 15 of the treaty. On the annual growth survey, the presidency highlighted General Affairs Council and Foreign Affairs Council three themes: (31 January 2011) enhancing macroeconomic stability; structural reforms for tackling unemployment; and measures to enhance economic growth under existing strategies. The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): The Foreign Affairs Council and General Affairs Council Roma were held on 31 January in Brussels. My right hon. The presidency said they planned to present a report Friend the Foreign Secretary and I represented the UK. to the GAC in May on integrating Roma. This should The agenda items covered were as follows: be forwarded to the European Council of 24 June. GENERAL AFFAIRS COUNCIL (GAC) Strategy for the Danube Region The GAC was chaired by the presidency, Hungarian The presidency and the Commission gave short Foreign Minister Martonyi. A provisional report of the presentations on their goals of improving co-operation meeting can be found at: and cohesion in the region in areas such as the environment http://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cms data/docs/ and developing prosperity. pressdata/EN/genaff/119Q37.pdf FOREIGN AFFAIRS COUNCIL (FAC) Hungarian EU Presidency The FAC was chaired by Baroness Ashton. A provisional The presidency presented the main themes of the report of the meeting and adopted conclusions can be presidency’s programme along the lines that I reported found at: in my pre-FAC/GAC written ministerial statement of http://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/ 27 January. cms_dataydocs/pressdata/EN/foraff/119045.pdf December and February European Councils Egypt After a brief review of the December European Council Discussion on Egypt took up a large part of the of 16-17 December, Ministers discussed preparations meeting. The adopted conclusions (see link) stress the for the 4 February European Council. On energy, views need for a broad-based Government, an “orderly transition” were exchanged on: integrating the internal energy market; and for “free and fair elections”. achieving energy efficiency targets and promoting renewable Ministers took the opportunity to discuss the broader energies; and improving the coherence of the EU’s implications for the region and the EU’s neighbourhood external action on energy issues. policy. The Foreign Secretary emphasised the need for I proposed that the EU should look at developing its the EU to support Egyptian institutions, values and strategic energy partnerships with countries bordering processes. The EU should also review its engagement in the EU. the region. UK initiatives like the Arab human development On innovation, a number of member states emphasised programme might offer a model. For more on the the need to be more ambitious on the digital single FCO’s projects in the Middle East see the following market. link: European Semester and Annual Growth Survey http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/global-issues/conflict- The presidency presented its roadmap for the European prevention/mena/middle-east-peace-process1/ semester which is being implemented for the first time The Commission (Fule) briefed on existing EU this year as part of a reform of EU economic governance. support to Egypt: ¤145 million through the European The European semester involves simultaneous monitoring neighbourhood policy instrument and ¤20 million planned of member states’ budgetary policies and structural from the European instrument for democracy and human reforms, in accordance with common rules, during a rights. He added that the Commission was prepared to six-month period every year. Under the European semester, offer Egypt electoral support. all other member states will send draft budgetary plans Baroness Ashton undertook to schedule future FAC to the EU for consideration in the spring. However, discussion on the EU’s neighbourhood policy and to because the UK’s fiscal year is different, and because explore the possibly of sending an EU fact-finding the Government were determined to respect section 5 of mission to Egypt as soon as it was safe to do so. the 1972 European Communities Act which states that the UK will only submit fiscal data to the Commission Tunisia if it has already been presented to Parliament first, the Following on from the discussion on Egypt, Ministers Government secured in June 2010 a provision in the agreed to adopt conclusions (see link) on Tunisia that stability and growth pact code of conduct to say that we support the transition to democracy and to offer assistance will present our final budget, not our draft budgetary with elections. The conclusions also include measures plans, to the EU. The UK budget will therefore already to freeze the assets of those who have embezzled Tunisian be publicly available and have been presented to Parliament. public funds. In interventions, many emphasised the The Commission and European Council will then provide need to maintain Tunisian ownership of the election policy advice and guidance to member states. The final process and called for a review of the EU-Tunisia decisions on national budgets will remain with national advance status negotiations. 53WS Written Ministerial Statements3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 54WS

Belarus The appointment has been made in accordance with Ministers agreed conclusions (see link) imposing schedule 5 of the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999, sanctions against the Belarusian Government in response and therefore this is a five-year appointment. Dr Leigh to its post-election crackdown. There was broad agreement will take up the post on 7 February 2011. that the release of seven detainees over the weekend did Dr Leigh is a chartered physicist and a fellow of the not sufficiently address concerns to warrant stopping Institute of Physics. He has extensive experience of the sanctions. The Foreign Secretary said the EU had working in the public sector having spent several years offered a positive approach to the Belarusian regime employed as a senior civil servant and several years in a which had been rejected. So it was right to impose these senior role in an NDPB. Dr Leigh was a deputy director sanctions. Additionally, the EU should keep open the in the Department of Trade and Industry with responsibility prospect of economic sanctions. for managing the National Physical Laboratory’s operating Cote d’Ivoire contract. In 2001 he was appointed as managing director Ministers had a short discussion where they agreed and director of policy for Postwatch, an executive NDPB conclusions (see link) that confirmed the EU’s support dealing with all consumer issues in the postal sector. for President Ouattara and set targeted sanctions against Since 2008, Dr Leigh has been working as a consultant former President Gbagbo. to the Irish Commission for Communications Regulation. Sudan The appointment of a Deputy Commissioner to replace Conclusions (see link) welcoming the preliminary the previous post holder has been made with due results of the referendum were agreed. Ministers discussed consideration of the uncertain future of the OISC. The the post-referendum situation and the need to develop a Cabinet Office announcement of reform to public bodies long-term EU engagement plan for both south and listed the OISC as one where future options, including north Sudan. Concern was also expressed about the a possible merger, are under consideration. A Deputy humanitarian situation in Darfur. Commissioner remains a requirement for the current Freedom of Religion and Beliefs operation of the OISC and as any changes will take Ministers discussed recent attacks on religious minorities time to be considered and thereafter implemented, it is in the Middle East and how the EU might respond. the case that substantial work at a managerial level will There was general agreement that the EU should send a be required within the OISC. strong message of concern about these attacks. Baroness Ashton tasked that the Political and Security Committee to develop a set of conclusions for adoption at a future Prevention of Terrorism Act 2005 (Lord Carlile’s FAC. Report on its Operation in 2010) Sahel Conclusions were agreed (see link). During a brief discussion, some member states asked for the new strategy The Secretary of State for the Home Department for the Sahel to be adopted quickly. (Mrs Theresa May): I am pleased to say that in accordance Albania with section 14(3), 14(4) and 14(5) of the Prevention of Terrorism Act 2005, Lord Carlile of Berriew QC has There was insufficient time to for Ministers to have a completed the report on the operation of the Act in discussion on recent events in Albania. Baroness Ashton 2010, which will be laid before the House today. Copies and Commissioner Fule stressed they were both actively will be available in the Vote Office. engaged. Iran The Netherlands raised the execution of the Dutch/ Iranian dual national Zahra Bahrami. The Foreign Secretary’s statement about his can be seen at the following LEADER OF THE HOUSE link: http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/news/latest-news/ ?view=News&id=542737582 IPSA (Evidence to the First Year Review from the Foreign Ministers’ dinner with Baroness Ashton Leader of the House) Over dinner, Baroness Ashton led a discussion on the EU’s relationship with its strategic partners with a particular focus this time on its objectives for Russia. The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George Ministers also reviewed developments in the Middle Young): The Independent Parliamentary Standards East ahead of the Quartet meeting of 5 February and Authority is currently conducting its first year review of discussed Lebanon. Finally, Baroness Ashton briefed the parliamentary expenses scheme. IPSA launched a on the Istanbul talks of 21-22 January on the Iranian formal process for public consultation on 5 January 2011. nuclear programme. Under the Parliamentary Standards Act (2009), the Leader of the House is a statutory consultee of the HOME DEPARTMENT scheme. Today, I am publishing the evidence that I am submitting to IPSA and I have placed copies in the Deputy Immigration Services Commissioner Library of the House, in the Vote Office for Members and on the Leader’s website: www.commonsleader.gov.uk. The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green): Iam Although I am responding as a statutory consultee, it pleased to announce Dr Ian Leigh’s appointment as has not been my intention to respond on behalf of the Deputy Immigration Services Commissioner for the House. I understand that party groups and individual Office of the Immigration Services Commissioner (OISC). MPs may be sending in separate submissions. 55WS Written Ministerial Statements3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 56WS

As I have set out in my evidence, I believe there are www.dvla.gov.uk. Depending on comments received and five key principles that should guide the regime for the Department’s response, amendment for any change Members’ expenses. They are: will be made to regulations or guidance issued to medical Independence—Members should not determine their own practitioners. allowances. Transparency—Public confidence must be maintained through ATOL Scheme transparent rules and publication of expenses data. Professionalism—Members should be properly resourced so The Minister of State, Department for Transport that they can effectively represent their constituents and (Mrs Theresa Villiers): I am today announcing the perform their parliamentary duties. Government’s “in principle” decision to reform the air Fitness for Purpose—Members from all backgrounds must travel organisers’ licensing (ATOL) scheme to improve be able to provide an equal service to their constituents; the clarity for consumers about its coverage and also to put system should not deter candidates from less affluent backgrounds from becoming or remaining Members of the scheme’s finances back on a sustainable basis. There Parliament, nor adversely affect family life. will be a full consultation on the details of the proposed Cost-effectiveness—The system should minimise the cost to reforms. the taxpayer, both by limiting the amount Members may The ATOL scheme, operated by the Civil Aviation claim to what is absolutely necessary and by offering simple, Authority (CAA), was introduced in the 1970s to provide cost-effective administration. financial protection for the purchase of package holidays The public consultation closes on 11 February and I in the event of travel company insolvency. Affected would encourage all Members who wish to raise issues passengers are entitled to a full refund if they are yet to with IPSA to do so before the end of the consultation travel, or repatriation after completing their holiday if period, so that IPSA is able to take account of the they have already reached their destination. broadest range of views from within the House. However, as a result of new ways of selling holidays and a recent Court ruling, the scheme no longer completely fulfils its intended purpose: the proportion of holidays with ATOL protection has fallen, and it can be difficult TRANSPORT for consumers and the travel industry to know which holidays are protected and which are not. The proposed reforms will make it easier for everyone to understand Drivers (Medical Standards) which holidays are covered, and will restore protection to what looks like a package holiday but now falls outside the legal definition. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport The Air Travel Trust Fund (the fund) provides the (Mike Penning): The Department for Transport has money for refunds and repatriation costs when a travel today published a consultation on proposals for changes company becomes insolvent. For historic reasons the to the driver medical standards on eyesight, epilepsy fund had no income for a number of years. As a result and diabetes. of this legacy, combined with travel company failures in The current driver licensing rules in the UK are based 2008 and 2010, the fund’s deficit has increased significantly. on the second European Council directive on driving Until it is back in surplus, it can only meet its obligations licences (91/439/EEC). The minimum medical standards because of a Government guarantee, currently £42 million, for the issue of driving licences are detailed in annex III in support of commercial borrowing facilities. Reform of the second directive and the forthcoming third European is needed to secure the sustainability of the fund so it directive on driving licences. Officials and medical experts can continue to provide financial protection for consumers, from across the European Union reviewed the standards while reducing and eventually eliminating the exposure for eyesight, diabetes and epilepsy. Following receipt of to taxpayers. It is envisaged that the ATOL protection their reports to the European Commission, amendments contribution (APC) paid into the fund will remain at to the standards were adopted in 2009 in directives £2.50 per holiday sale until the fund is restored to 2009/112/EC and 2009/113/EC, and came into force health. 15 September 2010. The last Government consulted on reforming the The Secretary of State’s experts on the honorary ATOL scheme in December 2009, and the coalition has medical advisory panels for eyesight, diabetes and neurology continued work on developing these important reforms. have considered the medical directives and how these In outline the proposed reforms would: compare with existing UK standards. For the most part Create a new category of “flight plus” holiday in ATOL. the medical directives relax, or more precisely define, This would cover holidays including a flight where the various elements were purchased within a specified short existing EU minimum medical standards. While UK time period, and so look similar to package holidays, but are standards must be at least at the level of a minimum not packages as currently legally defined in the UK. New standard we are not required by EU law to relax existing secondary legislation would be required to do this. domestic standards where these are higher than the EU Ensure that where businesses sell holidays that look like standards. However, where the panel has advised that a packages, but where the travel agent has arranged matters so relaxation is consistent with road safety we are they are acting as an “agent for the customer” and so remain recommending that this is adopted. The implementation outside of ATOL, consumers are made fully aware of this, of these revised standards is the basis of the consultation. so that they can make an informed decision about their purchase. We are looking at using the Consumer Protection The consultation period will run until 28 April 2011. from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 to enforce this measure. Copies of the consultation document have been placed Replace the current arrangements with clearer, standardised on the Library of the House. Further copies are available information for consumers that their holiday or flight is on the DFT and DVLA websites at www.dft.gov.uk or ATOL protected. The CAA has already begun discussions 57WS Written Ministerial Statements3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 58WS

with the industry about a recognised document, the ATOL The full report of the Government Actuary will be certificate, that would be both proportionate and fit for published alongside the order, as will a report on the purpose. This can be done by CAA using its existing powers. order by the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions A consultation on the details of the proposals, including in accordance with sections 42(1), 42B(1) and 45A(1) of draft secondary legislation, is planned for the spring, the Pensions Act 1993. with the aim of implementation by late 2011 or early 2012. I believe there may also be a case for new primary legislation to address other issues in the ATOL scheme and will be considering that further in the course of this WALES year. Proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Highways and Transport) Order 2011 WORK AND PENSIONS

Contracted-Out Rebate Rates (Quinquennial Review) The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan): I would like to inform the House that the proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) The Minister of State, Department for Work and (Highways and Transport) Order 2011 was laid on Pensions (Steve Webb): Later today the Government 3 February, as Command Paper Cm 7999. Copies of will publish an order to set the contracted-out rebate this can be found in the Vote Office and are also rate for salary-related pension schemes for the tax years available from the Library. I have written to the Welsh 2012-13 to 2017-18. The new rate will be 4.8% and will Affairs Committee and to the House of Lords be shared in the following way: 3.4% for employers Constitutional Committee to request that they undertake (secondary class 1 contributions) and 1.4% for employees pre-legislative scrutiny. (primary class 1 contributions). Rebate rates for members of contracted-out pension Education Bill: Framework Powers Explanatory schemes are reviewed at intervals of up to five years. It Memorandum has been five years since the last review. The rebate is expected to reflect the cost of providing the benefits given up by individuals contracted out of the additional The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan): state pension. I am pleased to inform the House that the explanatory The Government Actuary has produced a report memorandum explaining the Government’s proposal presenting three possible approaches to setting the rate. for framework powers in the Education Bill are available The Government have adopted the rate that was calculated in the Vote Office, Library and the Printed Paper Office, using the Government Actuary’s “best estimate”approach. and on the Wales Office website: (www.walesoffice.gov.uk). 875W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 876W

Hugh Robertson: The Olympic Park Legacy Company Written Answers to (OPLC) is currently seeking clarifications on the final offers submitted by the two bidding consortiums. Once Questions these clarifications have been received and the evaluation of bids is complete, the OPLC Board will meet to reach a decision. The decision will then be subject to approval Thursday 3 February 2011 by the founder members. Public Libraries: Cumbria

Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Olympics, Media and Sport what recent representations he has received on library closures in (a) the North Departmental Regulations West, (b) Cumbria and (c) Westmorland and Lonsdale constituency. [37984]

Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Vaizey: Local authorities are not obliged to consult Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what regulations the Secretary of State about plans for their library his Department has introduced since 6 May 2010. service. However the Department has received [37367] correspondence from library users in areas of the north-west where library closures have been proposed. The hon. John Penrose: The following regulations sponsored Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) secured an adjournment by the Department have been made since 6 May 2010: debate on 25 January about the future of library services The Ecclesiastical Exemption (Listed Buildings and Conservation in which she and other hon. Members from the north-west Areas) (England) (Amendment) Order 2010; region spoke about the library service provided to their The Olympics, Paralympics and London Olympics Association constituents. Rights (Infringement Proceedings) Regulations 2010; The Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport Order 2010; ATTORNEY-GENERAL The Legislative Reform (Licensing) (Interim Authority Notices etc) Order 2010; Police The Royal Parks and Other Open Spaces (Amendment) (No.2) etc. Regulations 2010; Ian Swales: To ask the Attorney-General whether he The Football Spectators (Seating) Order 2010; has plans to review the guidance to police officers and The Safety of Sports Grounds (Designation) Order 2010; Crown prosecutors issued by the Director of Public The Safety of Sports Grounds (Designation) (No.2) Order 2010; Prosecutions. [38025] The Safety of Sports Grounds (Designation) (No.3) Order 2010; The Attorney-General: The Director’s Guidance on The Audiovisual Media Services (Codification) Regulations 2010; Charging is issued by the Director of Public Prosecutions The Welsh Language (Gambling and Licensing Form) (DPP) under section 37A of the Police and Criminal Regulations 2010; Evidence Act 1984. The guidance sets out the arrangements The Apportionment of Money in the National Lottery Distribution prescribed by the DPP for the joint working of police Fund Order 2010; officers and prosecutors during the investigation and The Public Lending Right Scheme 1982 (Commencement of prosecution of criminal cases. Variation) Order 2011. The 4th Edition of the Director’s Guidance on Charging was signed and issued by the DPP on 21 January 2011. Internet: Devon The guidance is being rolled out in CPS and police force areas, and implementation is expected to be completed Anne Marie Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for by 30 June 2011. Until such time that the new guidance Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what estimate he is implemented, the 3rd Edition of the Director’s Guidance has made of the number of households in Devon on Charging remains in force. without access to the internet. [36169]

Mr Vaizey: I have not made a specific estimate. Almost TRANSPORT all households in the UK can access the internet through one of a variety of mechanisms—broadband connection, Departmental Responsibilities dial-up connection via the phone line, mobile or satellite. Charlie Elphicke: To ask the Secretary of State for Broadband Delivery UK estimates that about 950,000 Transport what steps his Department has taken to give households in the UK as a whole have access to internet effect to the Government’s big society initiative since connections capable of 512 Kbps or less. May 2010. [35342]

Olympic Games 2012 Norman Baker: The Department for Transport is committed to supporting the principles of the big society. Mr Lammy: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, For example, in response to public concerns about Olympics, Media and Sport when he expects the board the fear of litigation, in October 2010 the Department of the Olympic Park Legacy Company to reach a for Transport published straightforward guidance for decision on the future of the Olympic Stadium. [38179] households and traders who wish to act in a neighbourly 877W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 878W way by clearing snow and ice from paths in front of (2) whether an equality impact assessment will be property, pavements and other public spaces. It was required to be undertaken before any rail services are clear during the recent spell of severe winter weather ceased under new franchises. [35952] that the overwhelming majority of people want to take social action in a common sense way, whilst showing Mrs Villiers: The Railways Act 2005 stipulates that if neighbourliness and generosity of spirit in these any rail services are to be closed then both an Equalities circumstances. Assessment and a business case are required. The Equalities Furthermore, the recently published Local Transport Assessment includes consideration of alternative modes White Paper, encourages local authorities to form greater of transport. Full guidance can be found on the partnership with the voluntary, community, and social Department’s website at: enterprises sector and citizens in the design and delivery http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http:// of local sustainable transport solutions. This is intended www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/sgd/railways to lead to greater community empowerment, the opening closuresguidancea/railwaysclosuresguidance.pdf up of public services and to further the promotion of social action to achieve the local outcomes people want. Railways: Overcrowding

Dorset Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what will be the maximum time a passenger should have to stand on an intercity rail journey under Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for the new franchises. [35948] Transport what plans he has for an official visit to Dorset. [36419] Mrs Villiers: The Government’s aim is that all intercity passengers should get a seat (unless they are making a Mr Philip Hammond [holding answer 27 January short journey of less than 20 minutes). Bidders for west 2011]: I do not have any current plans to visit Dorset in coast will be asked to submit credible plans for achieving my official capacity. this objective, based on the passenger numbers they plan to carry over the life of the franchise. Driving: Licensing Railways: Vandalism John Thurso: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will bring forward proposals to (a) Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for amend the rules for issuing Group 2 medical licences to Transport what his policy is on steps to deal with drivers with insulin-dependent diabetes in line with incidents of vandalism on the rail network. [35436] EU Directive 2009/113/EC and (b) permit insulin- dependent diabetics to obtain a Group 2 licence where, Mrs Villiers: We are committed to combating crime, in the opinion of a qualified medical practitioner, their antisocial behaviour and the fear of crime wherever it condition is properly controlled and they pose no risk occurs in the transport system. Route crime can best be to themselves or other road users. [37927] tackled by all sections of the rail industry working together. The British Transport police liaises with Network Mike Penning: The EU Directive 2009/113/EC proposes Rail, local authorities, train operating companies and that the medical licensing standards for Group 2 (bus local schools to reduce the incidence of vandalism on and lorry) drivers who have insulin treated diabetes can the rail network. be relaxed. Decisions on implementing any change to the current UK licensing standards will be taken only Sea Rescue: Northern Ireland when the responses to the public consultation announced today have been analysed. Naomi Long: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will assess the potential effects of Human Trafficking closure of the coastguard station in Northern Ireland. [37747] Mr Bone: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what contribution he has made to the Government’s Mike Penning: The proposals to restructure HM review of its strategy on human trafficking. [36582] Coastguard are currently out to public consultation and include an option either to close the Belfast Maritime Mr Philip Hammond [holding answer 27 January Rescue Co-ordination Centre (MRCC) or to make it a 2011]: None at this stage. Home Office Ministers have daytime only operation. the lead on the development of the Government strategy Neither option will impact on our ability to co-ordinate on human trafficking, and I will contribute when the search and rescue (SAR); implementing the proposals Home Secretary seeks Cabinet colleagues’ comments in will mean that this can be done from any location. the normal way. In terms of the effect on staff, if a decision was made to close Belfast, staff could apply for vacancies at a new Railways: Franchising Maritime Operations Centre (MOC) or a sub-Centre, the wider Coastguard, or the Maritime and Coastguard Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for Agency (MCA). Opportunities would also be given to Transport (1) what assessment will be undertaken of apply to the wider civil service. Only after all these the availability of other forms of public transport before opportunities were exhausted, would the redundancy any rail services are ceased under new franchises; [35951] be considered. If a decision was made to make Belfast 879W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 880W

MRCC a sub-centre, staff would be given the same Forestry Commission options, including the option to apply for a post in the same location. Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what recent discussions he has had with the West Coast Railway Line Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on the effects in Scotland of proposed changes Christopher Pincher: To ask the Secretary of State for to the Forestry Commission in England and Wales. Transport if he will assess the likely effect of technological [37481] changes to business working on the forecast demand for passenger travel on the West Coast Main Line to 2035. David Mundell: The Secretary of State for Scotland [36105] and I have regular discussions with the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on a Mrs Villiers: In so far as evidence is available on the range of issues. Forestry is a devolved matter, and the impact of technology on rail demand, this is included in UK Government consider it unlikely that changes to any demand forecasts. Research on new and evolving the Public Forest Estate in England would have any influences on rail demand is carried out on an ongoing consequences for Scottish forestry. We will of course basis by the Department for Transport and the rail keep the issue under review and will continue our discussions industry’s Passenger Demand Forecasting Council. with the Scottish Government. Forecasting demand to 2026 for the West Coast Mainline will be a matter for the bidders on the new franchise. As President of the Convention of Scottish Local part of its evaluation process, the Department will Authorities review any evidence and assumptions included within the bids. Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland on how many occasions since his appointment West Coast Railway Line: Franchising he has met the President of the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities. [38095] Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what steps he is taking to encourage Michael Moore: Since my appointment I have been in passengers to engage in the consultation process on the contact with many people and organisations, including COSLA, on matters important to Scotland. West Coast Main Line franchise. [35997]

Mrs Villiers: Over 300 e-mails have been sent to stakeholders with the details of the Intercity West Coast Consultation Document. Four stakeholder events have WALES been organised during February for Manchester, Departmental Regulations Birmingham, Glasgow and London and invitations have been issued. A stakeholder briefing document will be produced after the close of the consultation that summarises Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for the responses received. Wales (1) what regulations her Department has introduced since 6 May 2010; [37364] (2) what regulations her Department has removed since 6 May 2010. [37389] SCOTLAND Mr David Jones: The Wales Office has brought forward Economic Growth eight statutory instruments since 6 May 2010. None of these place burdens on business. The instruments relate Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for to the referendum next month on further powers for the Scotland pursuant to the answer of 25 November 2010, National Assembly for Wales, the elections to the Assembly Official Report, column 453W, on economic growth, in May 2011, the legislative competence of the Assembly, whether he has requested the Chancellor of the the appointment of the chief inspector for education Exchequer to commission research on future economic and training in Wales and the use of personal data by elected representatives. growth in Scotland. [37907] The Wales Office has repealed one statutory instrument David Mundell: Returning all parts of the UK to since 6 May 2010, relating to the disqualification of sustainable economic growth is the Government’s overriding candidates at the Assembly elections in 2007. priority and it is at the heart of the Government’s agenda for this Parliament. Building on announcements in the spending review and Budget, the Government are undertaking a growth review to examine what each part COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT of Government can do to support growth and investment. The independent Office for Budget Responsibility’s updated Council Housing: Property Transfer fiscal and economic forecast shows sustainable growth for the UK as a whole in each of the next five years Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities while external forecasts for the Scottish economy predict and Local Government how many residential properties growth in the Scottish economy of between 1.1% and were sold by local authorities in each region in each of 2.2% for the coming year. the last five years for which figures are available. [38032] 881W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 882W

Andrew Stunell: Figures on the number of sales of Andrew Stunell: Holocaust Memorial Day 2011 was social housing stock by local authorities are published marked at over 500 local events around the United on the DCLG website in the form of live tables on Kingdom, as well as at the national commemoration in social housing sales to sitting tenants: the Royal Horticultural Halls which the Secretary of http://www.communities.gov.uk/housing/housingresearch/ State for Communities and Local Government, my housingstatistics/housingstatisticsby/socialhousingsales/ right hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar livetables/ (Mr Pickles) addressed on behalf of the Government. Decentralisation and Localism Bill The Government supported the Holocaust Memorial Day Trust to organise the national commemoration and Andrew Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for its associated educational programme, and to encourage Communities and Local Government what local events. We have indicated that we will continue to consultation he has undertaken with the construction meet the costs of Holocaust Memorial Day for a minimum industry in relation to the provisions of the Localism of a further two years, during which time my Department Bill that relate to planning powers. [37449] will assist the trust to optimise its business model so that it is able to continue its crucial work in the most Greg Clark: There have been discussions with a wide effective way possible. range of groups on the Localism Bill. The Department has engaged with groups such as the Confederation of British Industry, the Construction Products Association, Housing: Carbon Emissions the Federation of Master Builders and a broad range of firms from the development and house building sector. Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for Empty Dwelling Management Orders: Bromsgrove Communities and Local Government what steps he is taking to reduce carbon emissions in new properties. Sajid Javid: To ask the Secretary of State for [37968] Communities and Local Government how many properties in Bromsgrove constituency were subject to an empty Grant Shapps: The Government are committed to dwellings management order in each year since 2007. progressive improvements in the energy efficiency [38547] requirements for new homes and to enabling zero carbon homes from 2016 and non-domestic buildings from Andrew Stunell: There have been no empty dwelling 2019. The Government are working with industry and management order applications or authorisations in the others on the standards for zero carbon homes. The Bromsgrove area. energy performance standards in the building regulations Government: Assets which apply to new buildings were strengthened last year and the Government are making plans for further changes in 2013. Charlie Elphicke: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government pursuant to the answer of 26 January 2011, Official Report, column 306W, Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for on Government: assets, which clauses in the Localism Communities and Local Government what level of Bill enable a community right to (a) challenge and (b) emissions allow a property to be classified as a zero buy assets owned by central Government. [37860] carbon home. [37978]

Andrew Stunell: Clauses 66 to 70 in the Localism Bill Grant Shapps: The Government believe that, to qualify make provision for the community right to challenge. as zero carbon, new homes should not add extra carbon This is a right for voluntary and community bodies, dioxide emissions to the atmosphere. In delivering this local authority employees looking to deliver the service commitment the Government have already confirmed as a mutual, and parish councils, to express an interest that this will include an ambitious requirement for in running a local authority service. energy efficiency in the fabric of new homes. In addition Clauses 71 to 88 of the Localism Bill provide for the to this the Government have commissioned further listing of Assets of Community Value, and for a window work from the zero carbon hub on the right levels of of opportunity to give community interest groups a on-site reductions and we are awaiting the full findings greater opportunity to bid to buy such assets. Clause 72 of this work. It is widely accepted that for the majority enables the Secretary of State, and Welsh Ministers in of new homes it is not feasible to deal with all emissions Wales, to make provision which will determine whether on-site; given this, Government are working with industry a building or land is of community value. This definition to develop off-site mechanisms to deliver additional will be set down in secondary legislation following cost effective carbon savings. public consultation commencing in early 2011. Central Government assets which meet this definition will be covered. Housing: Construction Holocaust Memorial Day Jack Dromey: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what estimate he Communities and Local Government what steps the has made of the likely change in the level of house Government took to mark Holocaust Memorial Day building following the announcement of the abolition 2011; and if he will make a statement. [38049] of regional housing targets. [31636] 883W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 884W

Andrew Stunell: From April 2011 the New Homes Grant Shapps: My Department is supportive of all Bonus, will match fund the additional council tax raised mechanisms by which local authorities can seek to help for new houses and properties brought back into use, local landlords improve the service they offer to their with an additional amount for affordable houses, for tenants. Accreditation schemes can be an effective way the following six years. to do this. But we do not think that it is the role of It is the market that determines how many houses are central Government to prescribe to local authorities actually built. Regional housing targets have been ineffective. how best to manage their relationship with private 2009 saw the lowest peacetime level of house starts landlords in their area. since 1924. We are replacing targets with incentives which will be far more effective for the delivery of new houses. Public Sector: Carbon Emissions The number of starts in Quarter 2 and Quarter 3 of 2010 has risen compared to comparable quarters of 2009. Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what his policy is Full details of the scheme design were published on on the EU target for all new buildings occupied and 12 November and can be found on the Department’s owned by public authorities to be near-zero carbon website at: from 31 December 2018; what assessment he has made http://www.communities.gov.uk/housing/housingsupply/ of UK progress toward the target; and if he will make a newhomesbonus statement. [37909] A consultation on the scheme design closed on 24 December. We will publish the final scheme design Andrew Stunell: The recast of the energy performance in due course. of buildings directive includes a requirement that all new buildings occupied and owned by public authorities Localism Bill after 31 December 2018 shall be nearly zero energy buildings. The recast must be implemented by 8 July 2013 Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for and we will consult on its implementation in due course. Communities and Local Government if he will place in the Library copies of responses to the consultation on Social Rented Housing: Sales Part 6 of the Localism Bill. [37416] Grant Shapps: The Government published “Local Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Decisions: a fairer future for social housing” on Communities and Local Government (1) how many 22 November, setting out a range of proposed reforms residential properties have been sold by registered and seeking views; the consultation period closed on social landlords in each region in each of the last five 17 January and approximately 700 responses have been years for which figures are available; [38030] received. A summary of the responses to consultation (2) how many residential properties were disposed of will be published on the Department’s website shortly. by each registered social landlord by auction or open We intend to do so earlier than the three month deadline market sale in each of the last five years for which from end of consultation set out in the code of practice figures are available. [38031] on consultation. We will place a copy in the Library of the House. Individual responses will be made available Andrew Stunell: Figures on the number of sales of on request, unless respondents have asked that they be social housing stock by registered social landlords are treated as confidential. given in the following table: Units sold Ian Mearns: To ask the Secretary of State for Number Communities and Local Government with reference to the Explanatory Notes to the Localism Bill, paragraph 463, 2005-06 18,147 what the evidential basis is for the calculation that the 2006-07 21,768 enactment of the Bill will create an estimated charge of 2007-08 20,252 £21 million per year on local authorities. [38024] 2008-09 14,697 2009-10 15,891 Greg Clark: The Government are committed to the Source: new burdens doctrine, have considered the costs to local Regulatory and Statistical Return. Part K lines 4, 9, 13 (columns 1 authorities accordingly and will provide funding in the and 2), 22 and 23 (2006-07 to 2009-10) Part K lines 5, 8, 11 (columns 1 usual ways. The figure presented in the explanatory and 2), 21 and 22 (2005-06). notes is provisional, but the evidence base behind costs and These data include sales of properties by registered benefits to different groups, including local authorities, social landlords through right to buy, right to acquire, can be found in the impact assessments which are shared ownership initial sales, social homebuy and disposals available on the Department for Communities and Local to the private sector. Sales to another registered provider Government website and can be found at: are not included. A regional breakdown of these sales http://www.communities.gov.uk/localgovernment/ by registered social landlords is not available nor are decentralisation/localismbill/ figures on whether properties are sold via auction or open market. Private Rented Housing Tenancy Deposit Schemes Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government whether his Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Department has plans to encourage local authorities to for Communities and Local Government whether his adopt accreditation schemes for private rented sector Department has plans to bring forward proposals to landlords. [37921] improve Tenancy Deposit Schemes. [37922] 885W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 886W

Grant Shapps: My Department will be working closely Alistair Burt: The Government are committed to with external partners to refine and improve the operation securing a robust and effective arms trade treaty that of insurance-based tenancy deposit schemes as part of meets its foreign policy priorities of safeguarding Britain’s our work to ensure schemes are in place beyond March national security and building prosperity. The precise 2013, when the current schemes’ service concession content of an arms trade treaty is currently the subject agreements come to an end. of a UN negotiation which concludes in 2012; the Government continue to develop their negotiating position ahead of the next Preparatory Committee meeting commencing on 28 February 2011; it is therefore not PRIME MINISTER appropriate for me to specify the detail of the UK’s Departmental Pay negotiating position at this stage.

Lisa Nandy: To ask the Prime Minister what Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for information his Office holds on the number of Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will include sub-contracted staff servicing his Office who were not his plans for the Arms Trade Treaty negotiations in his paid at a rate equivalent to or above the London living forthcoming Building Stability Overseas strategy. wage in the latest period for which figures are available. [37687] [34811] Alistair Burt: The flow of illicit weapons into conflict The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Member to the affected and fragile states is an issue of significant answer given by the Minister for the Cabinet Office and concern. Officials from the Foreign and Commonwealth Paymaster General, my right hon. Friend the Member Office, the Department for International Development for Horsham (Mr Maude), on 31 January 2011, Official and the Ministry of Defence are currently consulting Report, column 604W. widely on the Building Stability Overseas Strategy, including with external experts and key partners, before confirming Rupert Murdoch the final content. Paul Farrelly: To ask the Prime Minister whether (a) British Overseas Territories he and (b) staff of 10 Downing street have met (i) Rupert Murdoch, (ii) James Murdoch, (iii) Rebekah Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Wade and (iv) other individuals representing (A) News and Commonwealth Affairs what requirement there is International and (B) News Corporation and (C) on the Secretary of State to consider the effect on BSkyB since 4 November 2010. [34139] British Overseas Territories of legislation enacted by Parliament. [37511] The Prime Minister: A list of official meetings by Ministers with external organisations is published quarterly Mr Bellingham: There is no constitutional or statutory and a list of official hospitality at Chequers is published requirement on a Secretary of State to consider the annually. James Murdoch and his wife received official effect of legislation enacted by Parliament on British hospitality at Chequers on 7 November 2010. I have Overseas Territories. However, as a matter of practice, met Rebekah Wade and James Murdoch at social occasions. at the time of drafting a Bill consideration is given to Decisions on the BSkyB merger are entirely a matter for whether it: (i) should apply directly to the Overseas the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Territories; (ii) should contain a provision enabling it to Sport, my right hon. Friend the Member for South be extended, modified as necessary, by Order in Council West Surrey (Mr Hunt). The Prime Minister has no role to them, or (iii) has no relevance to them and need not or involvement. I was not party to the Secretary of apply or have the possibility of future extension to State’s decision ahead of his announcement on 25 January them. 2011, Official Report, column 3WS. Staff of 10 Downing Legislation which does not apply directly or has not street have meetings with a wide range of organisations been extended by Order in Council to the Overseas and individuals on a range of subjects. Territories has no application to those territories. Departmental Consultants FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for Arms Trade: Treaties Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how much his Department has spent on consultancy since May 2010. Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for [34668] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (1) what his policy is on the required (a) scope and (b) parameters of the Alistair Burt: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office proposed Arms Trade Treaty; [37684] (FCO) employs consultants only when the necessary (2) what assessment he has made of the merits of skills are unavailable from permanent FCO staff. We including brokering activities within the scope of apply a strict value for money test to all consultancy use transfers regulated by the proposed Arms Trade Treaty; in line with central Government guidelines. [37685] The FCO spent £11.98 million on consultancy services (3) what assessment he has made of the merits of between May and November 2010 (December 2010 including small arms ammunition on the list of equipment data are not yet available). This was spent on practical to be regulated by the proposed Arms Trade Treaty. projects to improve the FCO’s global operations and [37686] provide better value for money for the taxpayer. It 887W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 888W funded in particular the provision of the external technical We will continue to remind Iran of the international expertise necessary to develop better IT systems and a commitments it has freely signed up to. We will also more modern global estate. A significant proportion urge the Iranian Government to cease its harassment of supported the Echo project, which is designed to deliver the Baha’i minority and to respect the rights of other better and cheaper global IT services to the FCO and minority groups. other Government Departments and save the taxpayer up to £90 million. Kashmir

Diplomatic Service: Domestic Service Craig Whittaker: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the answer of 29 November 2010, Official Report, column Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for 554W, on Kashmir, for what reasons his policy is that is Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many diplomatic not for the UK to mediate in seeking a lasting missions to the UK have asserted diplomatic immunity resolution to the situation in Kashmir. [37417] against investigations of the (a) employment status and (b) immigration status of domestic staff in each of the Alistair Burt: We recognise the importance of finding last three years. [37739] a lasting solution to the situation in Kashmir but it is not for the UK to prescribe a solution nor to mediate in Mr Bellingham: We are not aware of any such case finding one. This has been the policy of successive during the last three years. British Governments and the history of the issue suggests it must be for India and Pakistan to resolve, taking into Egypt: Politics and Government account the wishes of the Kashmiri people without any mediation by the UK. Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for North Africa: Human Rights Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent reports he has received on (a) political unrest and (b) disruption Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for of internet and mobile phone communications in Egypt; Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs on how many if he will discuss with his Egyptian counterpart the occasions his Department made representations to the merits of facilitating peaceful protest and maintaining governments of (a) Egypt, (b) Tunisia and (c) Algeria freedom of speech and assembly; and if he will make a on human rights issues in each of the last three years; statement. [37915] and if he will make a statement. [37740]

Alistair Burt: We are gravely concerned by the ongoing Alistair Burt: The UK holds annual Strategic Dialogues political unrest in Egypt and condemn the violence that with Egypt and Algeria at which a range of issues of is taking place in Cairo. If the regime were shown to be concern to both sides are discussed, including human sponsoring or tolerating this violence it would be completely rights. Crucially, at the third Strategic Dialogue with unacceptable. The scenes underline the need for political Egypt this January, we raised our concerns about the reform and for that process to be accelerated. 2010 parliamentary elections, in particular about media Our embassy has been closely monitoring the situation, restrictions and cases of electoral irregularities. The which has become increasingly dangerous with some issue of human rights also forms part of ongoing areas of Cairo, Alexandria and Suez deteriorating into discussions between our embassies and the host lawlessness. We regret the loss of life and continue to Governments in the three countries concerned. call for restraint on all sides. We have urged the Egyptian The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Government to avoid at all costs the use of violence Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond against unarmed civilians and for demonstrators to be (Yorks) (Mr Hague), addressed the issue during his visit able to exercise their rights peacefully. to Egypt in November last year and I have personally Restrictions on freedom of expression, including the raised the subject of human rights during my recent closure of internet access and mobile phone services, visits to Algeria and Tunisia as well as in my meeting have only fuelled the anger of demonstrators and we with the Tunisian ambassador to London following his have called on the Egyptian Government to lift those arrival in October 2010. restrictions urgently. At the European level, the issue of human rights has been a core component of negotiations with Tunisia Iran: Baha’i Faith with respect to its application for advanced status with the EU. The UK actively raises human rights concerns in the Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign UN, including in the Human Rights Council. In the and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he has case of Egypt, the UK raised its concerns during the had with the government of Iran on the protection of adoption of Egypt’s Universal Periodic Review in June human rights of people of the Baha’i faith in that 2010. country. [37587] Private Military and Security Companies: Regulation Alistair Burt: In 2010, I discussed human rights issues with the Iranian embassy on five occasions, including Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for the unacceptable persecution of the Baha’is. Our embassy Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the in Tehran also continues to raise this directly with the written ministerial statement of 16 November 2010, Iranian authorities, most recently on 12 December 2010. Official Report, column 59WS, on private military and 889W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 890W security companies, what (a) process and (b) timetable (2) what assessment he has made of the likely effects he plans to follow to appoint a trade association to of the fuel duty rates due to come into force on 1 April monitor and audit compliance of a UK code of conduct 2011 on road users in (a) rural areas and (b) England; for private military and security companies; and (i) by and if he will make a statement. [37341] what means and (ii) against what baseline he intends to review his policy two years after its implementation to Justine Greening: I refer the hon. Member to the assess whether standards have been raised. [37711] answer given on 21 January 2011, Official Report, column 1001W, and to the answers given on 17 January 2011, Mr Bellingham: In December 2010, two trade associations Official Report, column 576W and 24 January 2011, submitted proposals to fulfil the role of monitoring and Official Report, column 117W, to the hon. Member for auditing compliance of national standards for the UK Glasgow North East (Mr Bain) Private Military and Security Company industry. These have been reviewed by Whitehall officials and proposals The same rate of duty applies to petrol and diesel will shortly be considered by National Security Council intended for road use. members and thereafter announced to this House. At Motorists are affected by a range of measures to that stage we will provide further details, including how tackle the deficit and support growth including fuel we will monitor compliance with the national code of duty. In the June Budget the Government asked the conduct and establish the baseline for the two-year Office of Budget Responsibility (OBR) to undertake an policy review. assessment of the effect of oil price fluctuations on the public finances. The OBR published its report on 14 September. The Government are considering the TREASURY OBR’s assessment. Banks: Pay Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Chancellor of the Gregg McClymont: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether implementation of his proposals to Exchequer what recent steps his Department has taken reform fuel duty will be revenue-neutral. [37560] to reduce the level of executive remuneration in publicly-owned banks. [38096] Justine Greening: Decisions about tax policy are a matter for the Chancellor as part of the Budget process. Mr Hoban: The Government have taken robust action to tackle unacceptable bonuses. Following agreement in the Capital Requirements Directive, measures taken Excise Duties: Wines include the revised Financial Services Authority (FSA) remuneration code, introduced on 1 January 2011 and Dan Rogerson: To ask the Chancellor of the covering all bonuses payable in the coming bonus round. Exchequer what his estimate is of the cost to the public Further, the new FSA remuneration disclosure rules purse of wine fraud in the latest period for which were also introduced on 1 January 2011, with initial figures are available; and what recent steps he has taken disclosures starting this year and covering remuneration to mitigate wine fraud. [37280] paid in the 2010 financial year. In addition we have introduced the bank levy, higher capital and liquidity Justine Greening [holding answer 31 January 2011]: requirements, stronger resolution arrangements, the No specific estimate is made of the level of fraud in Independent Banking Commission and we continue to wine. When the alcohol strategy was renewed last year it investigate the costs and benefits of a financial activities was extended to address all categories of alcoholic tax. drinks and not just spirits, the only drinks covered by We have made it clear to the banks in which the the previous strategy. In the first nine months from Government have a stake that they should have a smaller implementation of the renewed strategy HMRC and bonus pool than last year and that they should be a UKBA have seized over 1.8 million litres of illicit wine. back-marker in the industry. The ‘Tackling Alcohol Fraud’ strategy which was Cycle to Work Scheme implemented from 1 April 2010 addresses fraud in all alcoholic drinks including wine. Gregg McClymont: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer by what mechanism other than monitoring Financial Inclusion Fund: Halifax take-up he evaluates the effectiveness of HM Revenue and Customs’ cycle to work scheme. [38097] Mrs Riordan: To ask the Chancellor of the Mr Gauke: HM Revenue and Customs administers Exchequer how many people in Halifax have received the tax relief available when employers offer cycle to assistance from the Financial Inclusion Fund in the work schemes. The effectiveness of the relief is monitored last 12 months. [37103] through contact with employers’ and industry representatives and in discussion with officials from Mr Hoban: The Financial Inclusion Fund supports a other Government Departments. number of different projects. Data from the projects are Excise Duties: Fuels not reported in a way that allows us to measure the impact of every project in a specific area. Miss McIntosh: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Data for the Financial Inclusion debt advice project (1) what recent representations he has received on the show that, over a 12-month period (1 January to differential between duty levels applied to petrol and 31 December 2010), 139 debt advice clients were seen by diesel; and if he will make a statement; [37335] debt advisers based in Halifax. 891W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 892W

Data for the Financial Inclusion Growth Fund show These estimates are based on 2007-08 Survey of Personal that Calderdale Credit Union, which covers Halifax, Incomes data projected to 2010-11 and 2011-12 in line made 2,494 affordable loans to the value of £1,601,065 with the June 2010 Budget assumptions. over the same 12-month period. It not possible to produce reliable estimates for The Government are working closely with the Consumer parliamentary constituencies due to small sample sizes Financial Education Body (soon to be known as the at these levels of geography. Money Advice Service) to take a preventative approach—so that consumers can better manage their own finances and avoid getting into unsustainable debt. This includes Loans creating Britain’s first free national financial advice service, including an annual financial healthcheck. Chris Ruane: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what recent estimate he has made of the (a) number and (b) proportion of people who use payday loans in Income Tax: Sunderland each (i) region, (ii) local authority and (iii) constituency. [37502] Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many residents of Sunderland were in Mr Davey: I have been asked to reply. each income tax band in the most recent year for which This Department collects information from the YouGov figures are available. [36412] Debt Track survey on the number and proportion of people both using payday loans and those that have Mr Gauke: Estimates of the number of taxpayers in applied for payday loans in the last six months. the local government district of Sunderland, categorised In October 2010, the most recent survey, it was by their highest marginal tax rate for 2007-08, the latest estimated that less than 1% of the population currently year available, are provided in the following table. had a payday loan and that approximately 0.5% had Number of taxpayers in Sunderland applied for a payday loan in the previous six months. Tax year 2007-08 Number1 The sample size of this survey (UK wide) is around 3,000—therefore it would be statistically unreliable to Starting rate 17,000 disaggregate the number of people who either hold or Basic rate 120,000 applied for a payday loan to a regional level (or beyond Higher rate 8,000 that, to local authority or constituency level). All taxpayers 144,000 Consumer Focus reviewed the payday loan market in 1 Rounded to the nearest thousand Notes: 2010. They estimated that around 1.2 million adults 1. Table shows number of taxpayers in the local government district took out a payday loan in 2009. They estimated the size of Sunderland by their highest marginal tax rate. of the market at £1.2 billion with each payday loan 2. Estimates at each rate do not sum to the total due to rounding. being worth on average £292. Source: Survey of Personal Incomes, 2007-08 See: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/income_distribution/inc-distribution- Personal Savings note.pdf Chris Ruane: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Income Tax: Tax Rates and Bands whether he has made a recent estimate of the (a) number and (b) proportion of people in each (i) region, (ii) local authority area and (iii) constituency Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Chancellor of the who have no savings. [37507] Exchequer (1) if he will estimate the number of people in Kilmarnock and Loudoun constituency who will no Mr Hoban: The Wealth and Assets Survey includes longer pay income tax as a result of the increase in the data on the distribution of net household financial personal allowance from 5 April 2011; [38099] wealth by region. Results for 2006-08, the latest year for (2) what estimate he has made of the change in the which data are available, can be found in the Wealth in number of people paying income tax at the 40 per cent. Great Britain: Main results report, by ONS. Data are rate with effect from 5 April 2011 in (a) Scotland, (b) not available for breakdowns at local authority and Kilmarnock and Loudoun constituency and (c) each constituency levels within this report. other parliamentary constituency. [38100]

Mr Gauke: In the June 2010 Budget, it was estimated Sovereign Support Grant that 880,000 persons would be taken out of tax in the United Kingdom as a result of the £1,000 increase in Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Chancellor of the the personal allowance in 2011-12, of which an estimated Exchequer pursuant to the answer of 18 January 2011, 71,000 are in Scotland. Official Report, column 756W, on the Sovereign The number of taxpayers paying income tax at the Support Grant, whether he plans to introduce the 40 per cent rate in 2011-12 in Scotland is projected to be primary legislation to establish the Sovereign Support 281,000, an increase of 47,000 compared with the published Grant before the summer adjournment. [37309] projection for 2010-11 (available on the HMRC website at the following address): Justine Greening: I have nothing to add to my previous http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/income_tax/table2-2.pdf answer. 893W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 894W

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many staff responsible for answering Devolution his Department’s 0800 2888 777 number for contacting Atos in relation to work capability assessments were Mark Durkan: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister absent (a) on annual leave and (b) due to illness on what plans he has for the future of the Memorandum 18 January 2011. [37918] of Understanding between the UK Government and the devolved Administrations. [34289] Chris Grayling: Atos Healthcare has confirmed that on 18 January 2011 there were: The Deputy Prime Minister: The Memorandum of (a)—six full time equivalent (FTE’s) on annual leave which Understanding was last updated in March 2010. It is equates to approximately 10.5% absence; and kept under annual review by the Government and the devolved Administrations through the Joint Ministerial (b)—two FTE’s on sick leave which equates to approximately Committee on Devolution. 3.5% absence.

Electoral Register: Social Security Benefits Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many staff are employed to Guto Bebb: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister if he answer his Department’s 0800 2888 777 number for will assess the likely effects on the accuracy and completeness contacting Atos in relation to work capability of the electoral register of requiring benefit claimants assessments. [37920] to be on the electoral register to be eligible for benefits. [37785] Chris Grayling: Atos Healthcare has confirmed that they currently have 64 staff which equates to 57 full Mr Harper: The Government have no current plans time equivalent’s employed in the activity on answering to conduct such an assessment. However, we are committed and making calls in the Virtual Contact Centre. to speeding up the implementation of individual electoral registration and later this year as part of that we will be trialling data matching—comparing the electoral register Employment Schemes: Alcoholic Drinks and Drugs against other public databases to find individuals missing from the register and allow EROs to encourage them to register. If these trials are successful we will roll data Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for matching out nationally, which will improve the accuracy Work and Pensions (1) whether he plans to establish and completeness of the electoral register. separate work programmes for those with a history of alcohol and drug misuse from 31 March 2011; [37981] Ministerial Policy Advisers (2) if he will ensure that contractors for the Work Programme are required to achieve a minimum success Philip Davies: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister rate for placing into work those with a history of which staff he has appointed to advise him on strategy alcohol and drug misuse. [37982] from outside the civil service since June 2010; and what their (a) areas of responsibility and (b) dates of appointment are. [37603] Chris Grayling: This Government will offer every support for people to choose full recovery as an achievable The Deputy Prime Minister: I have appointed a number way out of dependency—so that they get off drugs and of special advisers who advise me on a range of issues alcohol for good. including strategy. Details of these appointments are Where appropriate, customers with a history of drug published on the Cabinet Office’s website: or alcohol dependency will receive personalised support www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk through the Work Programme, the providers of which will need to work closely with the drug and alcohol treatment sector while demonstrating that they have the specialist expertise needed to deliver employment services WORK AND PENSIONS to this group. In the interim the Government will ensure that adequate support is in place for customers to Departmental Telephone Services ensure a smooth transition to the Work Programme. In addition, the Government are giving separate Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work consideration as to how to most effectively support and Pensions if he will estimate the average number of people in drug and alcohol treatment into sustained calls per (a) day, (b) week and (c) month to his employment. In particular, it has set out its ambition to Department’s 0800 2888 777 number for contacting pilot the use of payment by results to incentivise the Atos in relation to work capability assessments. [37917] drug treatment system to improve the delivery of sustained recovery outcomes, which will include employment. Chris Grayling: Atos Healthcare has confirmed that Minimum performance standards will apply to all the average number of inbound calls relating to work Work Programme customer groups, including the groups capability assessments are: for harder-to-help customers. However, there will be no (a)—2,002 per day specific minimum success rates for placing into work (b)—14,014 per week those customers with a history of drug and alcohol (c)—56,056 per month misuse. 895W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 896W

Housing Benefit Steve Webb: We have not discussed the impact of the 2011 changes to local housing allowance rates independently Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State with the London borough of Brent. We have however for Work and Pensions what estimate was made of planned a series of the conferences for all local authority expenditure from the public purse on housing benefit housing benefit managers to provide them with information in each year to 2015 as part of the (a) Autumn forecast about the changes in 2011. These events will promote and (b) June 2010 Budget forecast. [28744] awareness of the toolkit of products, including detailed guidance, we will be providing for local authorities. To reduce the risk of households becoming homeless we Steve Webb: The information requested is shown in have a substantial package of financial and practical the following table. support in place, worth £190 million over the spending Housing benefit expenditure forecasts, Great Britain review period. We are giving existing customers up to nine £ million (nominal) months’ transitional protection so that they have time Autumn forecast (a) June 2010 Budget (b) to look for alternative accommodation if they need to. 2010-11 21,477 21,536 We are also widening local authority discretion to 2011-12 22,002 21,928 pay housing benefit direct to the landlord if it would 2012-13 22,022 21,830 help the customer secure a new tenancy or remain in 2013-14 21,361 21,220 their current home at a reduced rent. 2014-15 21,912 21,909 Jobcentre Plus: Internet 2015-16 22,553 22,432 Notes: Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 1.Housing benefit figures include that element funded from local authorities’ own funds. and Pensions what steps his Department is taking to 2. The Department’s detailed benefit expenditure tables, including ensure that information provided on Jobcentre Plus forecasts to 2015, published following the Office for Budget Responsibility’s websites is up-to-date and accurate. [37916] publication of their autumn forecasts on 29 November 2010 can be found at: Chris Grayling: A key priority for the Department http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd4/index.php?page=expenditure around the provision of customer information is to Earlier forecasts (including June 2010 Budget) can also be found at the same address. ensure that it is both accurate and up-to-date across both online and offline channels. Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Work The information on departmental websites, including and Pensions which local authorities have been Directgov since the Jobcentre Plus website closed, is working with his Department on the simplification of subject to the Accuracy of Information framework. housing benefit letters to claimants. [34059] This framework is audited by the Department’s Risk Assurance Division (RAD) who seek assurance from Steve Webb: The Department has been working with the nominated Senior Responsible Office (SRO) within a number of local authorities to make letters that the Department that information is correct. The inform customers of housing benefit and council tax Department, in turn, seeks assurance from the businesses, benefit decisions easier to understand. The authorities including Jobcentre Plus, that information is correct. are Bradford metropolitan district council, Chelmsford The Department’s content on Directgov is reviewed borough council, Eastbourne borough council, Elmbridge annually, or more frequently if, for example, a policy borough council, Great Yarmouth borough council, changes. The review process requires the owner of the Leicester city council and Wolverhampton city council. policy to confirm the accuracy of the information developed The results of this work will be publicised to all local by them, or in collaboration with them, before it is authorities. published on Directgov. Responsibility for obtaining this assurance rests with DWP Communications. Teresa Pearce: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Content on Businesslink is also reviewed by policy and Pensions how many people will be affected by the owners at least once a year or more frequently if, for proposal to cap housing benefit for working age example, a policy changes. tenants in the social rented sector based on family size in (a) Erith and Thamesmead constituency, (b) Social Security Benefits: Fraud Greater London and (c) in total. [38175] Teresa Pearce: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Steve Webb: Impact assessments, which will include and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 4 November the number of households affected, will be published at 2010, Official Report, columns 936-37W,on social security the usual time to accompany the relevant legislation benefits: fraud, how many of the calls received by the when introduced in Parliament. National Benefit Fraud Helpline and passed to (a) the Fraud Investigation Service and (b) Customer Compliance in each of the last five years were dealt with and closed Housing Benefit: Brent within (i) 0 to four weeks, (ii) one to two months, (iii) two to four months, (iv) four to six months, (v) six to Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for eight months, (vi) eight to 10 months, (vii) 10 to 12 months, Work and Pensions what discussions he has had with (viii) more than one year, (ix) more than 15 months and housing officers at the London borough of Brent on (x) more than two years. [38174] the anticipated changes in the number of homeless families as a result of the changes to housing benefit Chris Grayling: The information requested is not rates. [37041] available. 897W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 898W

State Retirement Pensions Chris Grayling: The information requested is not recorded centrally and could be obtained only at Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and disproportionate cost. Pensions when he plans to publish a Green Paper on the proposed single tier state pension. [37913] Winter Fuel Payments

Steve Webb: The Government are currently examining Paul Maynard: To ask the Secretary of State for all aspects of state pension to identify options that Work and Pensions whether he plans to review the could lead to a more simple and straightforward system. September qualifying deadline for the £400 winter fuel Final decisions have not yet been made. payment for those turning 80 years old with a view to Any proposals for reforming the system will be subject moving it to later in the year. [37830] to consultation. Steve Webb: The qualifying week is set in legislation State Retirement Pensions: Uprating as the third full week in September. We use this date so that we can establish entitlement, undertake the necessary checks and make payments before Christmas. The Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Government believe that making payments by Christmas and Pensions what recent representations he has every year is helpful in reassuring pensioners that they received on the proposed change in the indexation of will have money available to pay for heating their homes the state pension from retail prices index to consumer during the coldest part of the year. We have no plans to prices index. [37925] change the qualifying week. Steve Webb: The Department has received a number of such representations. Work Capability Assessment In response to a request for evidence on the suitability of the Consumer Prices Index for measuring pensioner David T. C. Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for inflation, I have placed in the Libraries copies of a Work and Pensions if he will implement Professor paper “Analysis of the relative suitability of the Retail Harrington’s recommendations relating to the work Prices Index (RPI) and the Consumer Prices Index capability assessment in full. [37854] (CPI) for reflecting cost of living increases for pensioners”. Although the indexation of additional state pension Chris Grayling: We welcome the first independent will change from the RPI to the CPI, this year we review of the WCA, led by Professor Malcolm Harrington. propose that the basic state pension is increased in line This is a thorough review that has reviewed a substantial with the RPI, and thereafter by the highest of the CPI, amount of evidence. As a result, Professor Harrington average earnings, or 2.5%. has come forward with a wide range of far reaching and challenging proposals which the Government fully support. We are committed to taking forward the review’s Telereal Trillium recommendations so that we can make the system fairer and more effective. The Government response to Professor Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Harrington’s review sets out how and when we will and Pensions how many contracts his Department has implement the recommendations of the review, almost with Telereal Trillium; and what the monetary value is all of which will be in place in time for the national of all contracts his Department has with Telereal roll-out of the incapacity benefits reassessment programme. Trillium. [37902] Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Chris Grayling: The Department has one contract and Pensions what training is provided to staff with Telereal Trillium, a 20 year PFI contract in 1998 responsible for the medical assessment of applicants for the provision of fully fitted and serviced accommodation for employment and support allowance. [37919] for which the Department pays an all inclusive unitary charge. The spend through this contract was £782,949,478 Chris Grayling: The four stages of the training and in 2009-10. approval process for health care professionals are: The scope of the services provided by Telereal Trillium Stage 1—pre-course reading and an office based, trainer led include the provision of all accommodation occupied event by DWP,and the services encompass building maintenance, Stage 2—a written assessment of medical knowledge life cycle works, energy/utilities management and Stage 3—supervised practical training and appraisal environment, internal re-organisation and churn, porterage, In this stage the health care professional carries out assessments security, health and safety, furniture and equipment, under the supervision of an experienced trainer where the emphasis catering/security facilities and equipment, catering, waste is on: management, internal and external cleaning, room booking customer service service, and landscape maintenance. medical assessment techniques, and Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for Work report completion skills and Pensions how many complaints his Department Stage 4—Appraisal of casework has received from landlords whose properties are managed During the period of provisional approval, the health through a contract between his Department and Telereal care professional’s trainer will assess all reports completed Trillium in the latest period for which figures are available. by the health care professional until his or her competence [37903] is assured. 899W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 900W

Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Table 1: ATOS recommendations of placement in the ESA Work Related Activity Group and additional people placed in the ESA Work Related Activity Work and Pensions on how many occasions a Group at reconsideration by Jobcentre Plus decision maker Jobcentre Plus decision-maker did not follow the Number advice of an approved health care professional when Additional people making a decision on an individual’s eligibility for placed in WRAG at employment and support allowance in the latest period WRAG—based on reconsideration by JCP Claim start month ATOS recommendation DM for which figures are available. [37924] March 8,670 700 Chris Grayling: Employment and support allowance April 8,020 690 (ESA) was introduced in October 2008. A key factor in May 7,110 620 determining eligibility for ESA is the Work Capability Total 148,270 12,230 Assessment (WCA). The WCA is carried out by health Table 2: ATOS recommendations of placement in the ESA Support Group and care professionals employed by Atos Healthcare. A additional people placed in the ESA Support Group at reconsideration by report of the WCA is then sent to Jobcentre Plus. Jobcentre Plus decision maker Number Jobcentre Plus decision makers (JCP DMs) have to Additional people consider all the available information before making a SG—based on ATOS moved to SG—at decision on benefit entitlement. Any additional evidence Claim start month recommendation reconsideration provided by a customer’s GP or consultant is important 2008 and is fully considered as part of this process. October 670 40 The Department therefore holds information on both November 2,670 250 the recommendation made by Atos Healthcare at December 2,440 240 assessment and separate information on the JCP DM’s final decision. We can determine where the decision differs but not why the decision was changed or whether 2009 a case was returned for reconsideration. Where the final January 2,960 300 JCP DM decision differs to the original Atos February 2,660 300 recommendation we refer to the decision being a result March 3,000 340 of ’at reconsideration’ which may or not involve a April 2,900 320 return of the case to Atos. May 2,970 330 June 3,040 370 The number of people for whom Atos recommended July 3,480 350 they be placed in the Work Related Activity Group August 3,030 340 (WRAG) and the Support Group (SG) and additional September 3,430 320 people who were placed in the WRAG or SG based on October 2,950 350 the JCP DM decision is presented in the following table. November 3,030 320 Please note that the impact of appeals is not included. December 2,660 280 Table 1: ATOS recommendations of placement in the ESA Work Related Activity Group and additional people placed in the ESA Work Related Activity Group at reconsideration by Jobcentre Plus decision maker 2010 Number January 3,040 290 Additional people February 2,810 260 placed in WRAG at March 3,150 290 WRAG—based on reconsideration by JCP Claim start month ATOS recommendation DM April 2,950 250 May 2,680 230 2008 Total 56,480 5,770 October 1,200 80 November 5,700 370 December 5,420 330 Natascha Engel: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many work capability assessment claim closures there have been in each 2009 month since October 2008. [37932] January 7,450 460 February 6,920 450 March 8,050 580 Chris Grayling: The following table lists all outcomes April 7,750 600 from initial work capability assessments (WCA) nationally, May 7,820 580 for employment and support allowance claims starting June 8,480 690 in the months shown. This table is taken from the July 8,690 740 published official statistics report “ESA: Work Capability August 8,120 710 Assessment Statistical Release January 2011”. The “Claim September 8,840 840 closed before assessment complete” column shows all October 8,160 860 new claims for ESA that were closed before the WCA November 7,900 780 process was completed. December 6,850 660 The Department has commissioned qualitative research into ended ESA claims, which will include interviews 2010 with a sample of people whose claim was closed by January 8,800 830 Jobcentre Plus before they completed assessment for February 8,300 700 ESA. A report of this research will be published in the DWP research report series in spring 2011. 901W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 902W

Monthly ESA on-flows by month of claim start and result of initial functional assessment Support group Work related Fit for Work Claim closed before Assessment still Total activity group assessment complete in progress Month of claim start No. % No. % No. % No. % No. % No. %

October 2008 700 8 1,200 13 3,600 39 3,700 40 100 1 9,300 100 November 2008 2,900 6 5,900 13 17,500 39 18,200 41 200 1 44,800 100 December 2008 2,700 7 5,600 14 15,200 38 16,600 41 200 1 40,300 100 January 2009 3,200 6 7,700 15 21,000 39 21,000 39 300 1 53,300 100 February 2009 2,900 6 7,200 15 19,800 40 19,200 39 400 1 49,500 100 March 2009 3,300 6 8,400 15 23,500 41 20,900 37 500 1 56,700 100 April 2009 3,200 6 8,200 16 21,800 42 18,800 36 500 1 52,400 100 May2009 3,300 6 8,200 15 22,000 41 19,100 36 400 1 53,100 100 June 2009 3,400 6 9,000 16 22,700 40 21,200 37 ’ 600 1 56,800 100 July 2009 3,800 7 9,300 16 22,800 40 21,200 37 700 1 57,700 100 August 2009 3,300 6 8,700 17 20,400 40 18,600 36 600 1 51,600 100 September 2009 3,700 7 9,500 17 21,800 39 19,400 35 800 2 55,300 100 October 2009 3,300 6 8,900 17 21,200 40 18,900 36 1,100 2 53,300 100 November 2009 3,300 6 8,500 16 20,500 39 18,600 36 1,300 2 52,300 100 December 2009 2,900 7 7,400 17 16,800 38 16,100 36 1,300 3 44,500 100 January 2010 3,300 6 9,500 17 21,900 39 20,100 35 1,900 3 56,700 100 February 2010 3,100 6 8,900 16 21,400 39 18,700 34 2,500 5 54,500 100 March 2010 3,400 6 9,200 15 23,100 39 20,400 34 3,500 6 59,700 100 April 2010 3,200 6 8,600 16 20,300 37 18,200 34 4,100 8 54,300 100 May 2010 2,900 6 7,600 15 18,700 36 17,700 34 5,700 11 52,500 100 Total 61,800 6 157,600 16 396,100 39 366,600 36 26,500 3 1,008,600 100 Source: Benefit claims data held by the Department for Work and Pensions and functional assessment data sourced from Atos Healthcare.

The Department regularly publishes official statistics (2) what proportion of people who have undergone a on ESA and the WCA, the latest report was published work capability assessment have been found fit to work in January 2011. Further information is available in the at appeal in each month since October 2008. [37931] report which can be found on the internet at the following link: Chris Grayling: Information on the number of people http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/workingage/esa_wca/ who are found fit for work, who then appeal the decision index.php?page=esa_wca_arc at a hearing with Ministry of Justice and the result of the appeal is published. The full publication can be Natascha Engel: To ask the Secretary of State for found here: Work and Pensions (1) how many people who made a http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/workingage/ claim for employment and support allowance (ESA) index.php?page=esa_wca and who were found fit for work at assessment have Table 3 of the publication which relates specifically to had an appeal heard by the Tribunals Service in each fit for work decisions and appeals is reproduced as month since ESA assessments began; [37934] follows:

WCA appeals heard on ‘Fit for Work’ decision (initial assessments only) Percentage fit for work with an Percentage decision Month of Appeals appeal heard Decision in favour DWP decision in favour of DWP decision claim start Fit for Work heard(to date) (to date) of appellant upheld appellant upheld

October 2008 3,600 1,500 41 600 900 40 60 November 17,500 7,200 41 2,800 4,400 40 60 2008 December 15,200 6,400 42 2,700 3,800 41 59 2008 January 2009 21,000 8,900 42 3,600 5,300 40 60 February 2009 19,800 8,100 41 3,300 4,800 41 59 March 2009 23,500 9,400 40 3,800 5,500 41 59 April 2009 21,800 8,300 38 3,400 4,900 41 59 May 2009 22,000 8,000 36 3,200 4,800 40 60 June 2009 22,700 7,600 33 3,100 4,500 41 59 July 2009 22,800 7,100 31 2,700 4,300 39 61 August 2009 20,400 5,600 28 2,200 3,500 39 61 September 21,800 5,300 24 2,000 3,300 37 63 2009 October 2009 21,200 4,100 19 1,400 2,600 35 65 November 20,500 2,800 14 900 2,000 31 69 2009 Total 273,900 90,300 33 35,800 54,600 40 60 903W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 904W

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS and decentralise fisheries management, building in the right incentives for fishermen to operate sustainably Forests and profitably, and cutting the terrible waste of discards. We are working with other member states, stakeholders 19. Karl Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for and EU institutions to build support for radical reform Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent ahead of negotiations later this year. representations she has received on the sale of land managed by the Forestry Commission in England. Global Food Security [37815] 23. George Freeman: To ask the Secretary of State Siobhain McDonagh: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent discussions she has had on global food security; and if representations she has received on the sale of land she will make a statement. [37819] managed by the Forestry Commission in England. [37799] Mrs Spelman: Last week I spoke at the launch of Sir John Beddington’s Foresight report on global food Dr Whitehead: To ask the Secretary of State for security. The report is clear that with almost one billion Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent people hungry and significant environmental degradation representations she has received on the sale of forest business as usual is not sustainable. and woodland managed by the Forestry Commission The UK Government are determined to show in England. [37805] international leadership on this issue. We are committed to international development and better functioning Mrs Spelman: Since the beginning of October last global markets, along with improving agriculture year we have received over 4,200 representations on the productivity. These are critical issues for CAP reform sale of the public forest estate. and the G20 this summer.

21. Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Crayfish Environment, Food and Rural Affairs which forests in the North East she is considering for sale as part of the Mark Tami: To ask the Secretary of State for disposal of the public forest estate. [37817] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps her Department is taking to conserve the white-clawed crayfish Mrs Spelman: We have recently published the selection population through the establishment of native-only criteria for woodland in the Forestry Commission’s refuge sites; and if she will make a statement. [37675] 2011-12 asset sales programme. The Forestry Commission is currently identifying woods which meet these criteria Richard Benyon: DEFRA has no direct role in the and so no further details are available at this time. identification or establishment of refuge sites. However, Details of woodlands to be sold in subsequent years Natural England and the Environment Agency are will only be developed once the public forest estate supporting white clawed crayfish refuge site creation consultation has concluded. projects within the regions. They are currently finalising a best practice/guidance document on decision-making Rural Payments Agency in the placement and establishment of Ark sites, and other conservation requirements. Natural England is 20. Rory Stewart: To ask the Secretary of State for currently funding a Countdown 2010 project in south-west Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what progress England involving a captive rearing programme at Bristol she has made on improving the performance of the Zoo, the identification of Ark sites and reintroduction Rural Payments Agency. [37816] of white-clawed crayfish to a number of sites across the south-west. Mr Paice: Progress continues to be made in addressing Guidance on the creation of Ark sites has been the unhappy legacy which is described vividly in the drawn up by Buglife, and Ark site creation projects have independent review of RPA published last year. Despite been carried out by Buglife and the Peak District National the issues arising from the updating of farmer’s maps Park, funded by Natural England through DEFRA’a and reduced staff numbers, the RPA met its target to Aggregates Levy Sustainability Fund. pay 85% of 2010 SPS claimants by the end of December. The Environment Agency is working in partnership But there is still much to do and it will inevitably take with Buglife to create a crayfish website to draw together some time to fully address longstanding problems. information on crayfish in the UK. The website will provide guidance for the general public and professionals Common Fisheries Policy working in the field.

22. Sheryll Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for Mark Tami: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what plans she Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate has for reform of the Common Fisheries Policy; and if her Department has made of the size of the signal she will make a statement. [37818] crayfish population in each of the last 5 years. [37678]

Richard Benyon: The common fisheries policy is broken. Richard Benyon: DEFRA has not made an assessment It has failed to deliver healthy fish stocks and a sustainable of the size of the signal crayfish population in England. living for fishermen. We need radical reform, to simplify However, the Environment Agency records presence/absence 905W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 906W or numbers of individuals on an ad hoc basis as part of than 0.5% away from achieving the 2020 target of a 30% fisheries survey programmes, or biological monitoring reduction in its CO2 emissions. Since 2006, the Department work for WFD and other directives. The agency does has delivered an average 4% reduction year on year not make quantitative estimates of population size, but 2006 to 2009 and a 12.5% reduction in 2009-10. works to understand the geographic spread of this DEFRA’s CO2 reduction performance is a direct non-native species. result of the implementation of measures identified through its ongoing Carbon Reduction Programme. Mark Tami: To ask the Secretary of State for Since 2006, this programme has identified and reduced Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what (a) advice excessive energy consumption across the network estate. and (b) guidance her Department provides to (i) the This has been delivered through a structured approach Environment Agency and (ii) other relevant agencies to the analysis and benchmarking of energy consumption on control of the signal crayfish population. [37679] data and a focus on quick win, high carbon saving projects. DEFRA’s achievements have often set the Richard Benyon: The non-native species framework benchmark for the sustainability industry. Specific strategy for Great Britain sets out the Government’s achievements have been recognised through Carbon broad policy approach to invasive non-native species. Trust Standard, BREEAM outstanding ratings and As signal crayfish are well established, complete eradication internationally through CoreNet Global. is no longer achievable. Therefore, our policy is to look toward methods to manage this species in the long term, minimising its spread and mitigating the consequent Departmental Libraries negative impacts where feasible. DEFRA has had representation, through its executive Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for agency CEFAS, on the native crayfish Biodiversity Action Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many (a) Plan steering group, which has disseminated advice on certified and (b) chartered librarians her Department DEFRA policy to other agencies represented on the has employed in each year since its creation. [37650] group (EA, Natural England, CCW), and to the wider community researching or managing crayfish populations. Richard Benyon: The number of certified and charted CEFAS additionally provides advice to other agencies librarians employed in DEFRA and its agencies on and the public in respect of the legislation applicable to 31 December of each year is shown in the following signal crayfish (and other alien crayfish) management table: and control within England and Wales. Number Departmental Carbon Emissions Certified Chartered

Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for 2004 0 9 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent 2005 1 10 steps her Department has taken to reduce its carbon 2006 1 9 emissions to meet the target of reducing central 2007 1 8 Government carbon emissions by 10% by June 2011. 2008 1 8 [36608] 2009 1 7 2010 1 7 Richard Benyon: DEFRA is committed to reducing carbon emissions from its estate and has taken a number The information for years prior to 2004 is not held. of actions through the 10% CO2 reduction initiative to implement projects which will improve its performance and deliver further savings. Departmental Working Conditions To date, improvements have been made to a number of buildings across the DEFRA estate. Improvements Mike Freer: To ask the Secretary of State for to plant controls and Building Management Systems Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what her (BMS); improved insulation; and installation of energy Department’s policy is on (a) the space provided per efficient technologies such as voltage optimisation, boiler employee, (b) home working and (c) hot desking; how optimisation, and low energy lighting, are examples of many employees it has on average per desk; and how initiatives implemented to meet the target. much space on average there is per employee. [34591] These initiatives have been supported by the introduction of a 19° C winter heating temperature set point across Richard Benyon: DEFRA policy on space provided the DEFRA estate, tighter control of heating and lighting per employee in offices is to target 8m2 per person times and staff awareness campaigns which have encouraged accommodated and an occupancy ratio of 1.3 employees participation and support. These campaigns have enabled per desk space. the Department to identify additional ideas for delivering DEFRA policy allows home working subject to business further savings and help to embed culture change. need. DEFRA operates hot desking in its buildings.

Delivery of the 10% CO2 target is enabling DEFRA Performance confirming how many employees DEFRA to demonstrate its commitment to reducing CO2 emissions. has on average per desk and space per employee is This follows on from its achievement of the Sustainable published annually in the annual State of the Estate Operations on the Government Estate (SOGE) 2010 report, which is laid before Parliament. The latest report target for carbon reduction from offices in 2009, where is the 2009 report, which was published by the Office of it met and exceeded the target. DEFRA is now less Government Commerce in March 2010. 907W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 908W

Fisheries be gathered only at a disproportionate cost. Where the sale was completed more than five years ago the records Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for may have been destroyed. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment Financial Receipts from sale of Area (Ha) of sale of she has made of the effectiveness of catch-quota year properties1 (£) properties2 schemes in reducing the discarding of fish; and if she will make a statement. [37645] 2000-01 2,232,000 202 2001-02 5,537,000 464 Richard Benyon: In 2010, the UK ran two voluntary 2002-03 2,754,000 582 trials in England and Scotland to test the effectiveness 2003-04 1,532,000 663 of the catch quota system at reducing discards of cod in 2004-05 5,863,000 369 the North sea. Six vessels participated in England and 2005-06 2,123,000 780 17 in Scotland. 2006-07 5,686,000 1,050 Initial results from both trials indicate that the catch 2007-08 6,093,000 1,024 quota system is very effective at reducing discards of 2008-09 3,391,000 407 cod. For UK vessels, the three year (2007-09) average 2009-10 7,734,000 1,175 discard rate for cod in the North sea was 51%—in 1 Figures from Forest Enterprise England annual accounts (includes comparison the discard rates for participants in the woodland, buildings and development land). 2 Figures from Deeds Management System (includes woodland, buildings English trial were between 1% and 7%. A full analysis and development land). of the results of both trials will be available in the spring. Industrial Health and Safety The UK is running an expanded catch quota trial in 2011 for North sea cod and south-west sole. Alok Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what progress Fishing Vessels her Department has made in reviewing the health and safety regulations for which it is responsible since her appointment. [36976] Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what her policy Mr Paice: Lord Young’s review of health and safety is on the creation of a global record of fishing vessels. laws and the compensation culture ″Common Sense, [37557] Common Safety″ carried out for the Prime Minister was published on 15 October 2010. Richard Benyon: We continue to strongly support the Actions to implement Lord Young’srecommendations creation of a global record of fishing vessels, refrigerated are being taken forward across Government in line with transport vessels, and supply vessels, as proposed by the the timetable set out in the report. UN Food and Agriculture Organisation (FAO). We hope that, once operational, the global record will be a The review made no specific recommendations for powerful tool in combating illegal, unreported and the Department and no further review of health and unregulated fishing, by significantly improving transparency safety legislation has been carried out and there are no in the ownership, operation, and activity of fishing plans to do so at this stage. vessels, and the vessels that support them. Rights of Way Forestry Commission Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what information Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for her Department holds on which local authorities employ Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what tracts of officers dedicated to the implementation of public rights land have been sold by the Forestry Commission since of way. [37914] 1997; what the (a) area in hectares, (b) sale price, (c) sale date and (d) biodiversity value was of the land Richard Benyon: DEFRA does not hold information sold in each case; and, where such land was forested, on which local authorities employ officers dedicated to what the type of forest cover was. [37074] public rights of way.

Mr Paice: I have placed documents in the House Salmon Library detailing the area of land sold since 1997 by calendar year from 1997 to 2002 and by date of sale Mark Tami: To ask the Secretary of State for from 2003 to 2010. The total receipts from these sales Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate (by financial year) from 2000-01 to 2009-10 are given in her Department has made of salmon stocks in rivers in the table. each of the last five years. [37681] Biodiversity value and forest type of any woodland sold was not specifically recorded, but sales were chosen Richard Benyon: The Environment Agency carries on the basis of the land making a relatively limited out a wide range of assessment and monitoring activities contribution to Forestry Commission objectives and on salmon rivers in England and Wales; this includes providing limited added value from public ownership in annual assessments of both juvenile fish and returning the delivery of public benefits. Other information on adults. Catch data, and information from adult counters the land sales since 1997 is not held centrally and could and traps where these are available, are used to make an 909W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 910W annual compliance assessment of the salmon spawning Coal Fired Power Stations success on each river, measured against river-specific ’targets’. Dan Byles: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy These and other measures of stock status are published and Climate Change how many coal-fired power annually in a report compiled jointly by the Centre for stations were in operation in the latest period for which Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture Science (CEFAS) figures are available; and what estimate he has made of and the Environment Agency. The most recent report, a the number of coal-fired power stations there will be in copy of which will be placed in the Library, provides (a) 2020 and (b) 2030. [37348] data for 2009, but includes information on salmon stock status over a longer time period, including the last Charles Hendry: The latest figures show that there are five years. Data for 2010 have not yet been collated. 17 major coal fired power stations operating in the UK (as at the end of May 2010), equivalent to a capacity of 23 Gigawatts1. ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Of the 17 major coal-fired stations that are currently operational, six are scheduled to close by 2015 under Biofuels the large combustion plant directive. There is no projection available on the number of Simon Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for operating coal-fired power stations. However, the central Energy and Climate Change what recent discussions he projection for the capacity of major coal fired power has had with the Secretary of State for Transport on stations in 2020 is 18 Gigawatts. This includes those the use of imported biofuels. [38140] with carbon capture storage technology. Coal power stations currently vary widely in size (from 0.4 to 3.8GW), Gregory Barker: Ministers have regular discussions if it is assumed that the coal power stations in 2020 are on a range of issues which includes the deployment of all 1.7GW (the current average size) this would equate sustainable biofuels. to 10-11 stations. Carbon Emissions: EU Action DECC do not make projections on 2030. However, the projection for 2025 is 12 Gigawatts, assuming the same average size this equates to 7 to 8 power stations2. Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change if he will take steps to Sources: ensure that the EU target to reduce greenhouse gas 1 Table 5.11, Digest of United Kingdom Energy Statistics 2010 emissions by between 80 and 95 per cent. by 2050 is 2 DECC Updated Emissions Projections, Annex L, June 2010 maintained as a stand alone commitment; and if he will make a statement. [37911] Electricity

Gregory Barker: The Government are committed to Esther McVey: To ask the Secretary of State for making the transition to a low carbon economy both in Energy and Climate Change what discussions his the UK and EU. We support the EU target to reduce Department has had with the National Grid on the greenhouse gas emissions by 80-95% by 2050 which installation of an underground electricity cable between mirrors our own domestic commitment. DECC’s work Scotland and England via Wirral; and if he will make a to explore the ‘pathways to 2050’, which is published on statement. [38124] our website, has ensured the UK continues to be at the forefront of the debate on meeting the 2050 targets. Charles Hendry: The Department regularly discusses Carbon Reduction Commitment Energy Efficiency electricity network policy issues with stakeholders including Scheme National Grid, however DECC does not have a role in approving specific transmission investments. The approval of grid investment projects is a matter for the transmission Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State owners and Ofgem. Ofgem are currently seeking further for Energy and Climate Change what assessment his information on the proposed West Coast undersea link Department has made of the financial effects on from National Grid and Scottish Power to enable them owners of private electricity and gas networks who to take a decision on approving funding for the investment. become liable to pay the cost of the carbon reduction commitment tariff in cases where one or more of their tenants holds a climate change agreement. [37888] Energy

Gregory Barker: The Government have not undertaken Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for any additional assessment on the financial and regulatory Energy and Climate Change if he will introduce a costs of the CRC Energy Efficiency Scheme since target to achieve a 20% or greater reduction in primary publication of the final impact assessment in January energy use through energy efficiency measures by 2020 2010. The final impact assessment estimated the net as part of the EU Energy Efficiency Action Plan; and if benefits overall of the scheme to be £3,800 million. The he will make a statement. [37987] Government have begun an informal dialogue with scheme participants and other stakeholders on simplification Gregory Barker: The EU has already adopted (in of the scheme. This dialogue will help to inform future 2007) an indicative EU-wide target to reduce primary proposals for changes to the legislation underpinning energy use by 20% by 2020 compared with “business as the scheme, including in relation to the interaction usual” through improvements in energy efficiency. This between the CRC scheme and climate change agreements. target provides the context for the European Commission’s 911W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 912W forthcoming review of the EU Energy Efficiency Action Global Warming Policy Foundation Plan which is scheduled for publication soon. The Government do not believe additional energy efficiency Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for targets are needed. Energy and Climate Change what (a) meetings and (b) discussions he and Ministers in his Department Energy Supply have had with representatives of the Global Warming Policy Foundation in the latest period for which information is available. [38022] Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (1) what representations he Gregory Barker: Neither the Secretary of State for has received on off-grid energy supply between 1 June Energy and Climate Change, myself or my fellow Ministers 2010 and 10 December 2010; [37891] in the Department have had meetings or discussions (2) whether he has received any recent representations with representatives of the Global Warming Policy on pricing in the off-grid energy market. [37892] Foundation.

Charles Hendry: As I noted in the fuel poverty debate Natural Gas and Oil on 19 January 2011, Official Report, columns 255-79WH, there have been a significant number of representations Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for on the domestic oil market from the public and hon. Energy and Climate Change if he will request the Members of Parliament. I fully recognise the difficulties European Council not to authorise an assessment of people have experienced with rising prices and supply the potential for the extraction and use of (a) shale gas problems, as set out in my written ministerial statement and (b) oil shale; and if he will make a statement. on 21 January 2011, Official Report, columns 55-56WS. [37912] I welcome the independent assessment of the off-grid market by the Office of Fair Trading, and I look forward Charles Hendry: The Government are committed to to seeing its conclusions in advance of next winter so the EU moving to a low-carbon, energy secure and the lessons from this winter can be learned and any competitive economy by 2050, and in particular that it necessary changes made. meets its objective of reducing greenhouse gas emission levels by 80% to 95% by then. However, fossil fuels will Energy: Prices remain a vital part of the transition to a low-carbon economy and the EU therefore needs to do all it can to understand what fossil fuels may be available so that Christopher Pincher: To ask the Secretary of State for member states can take informed decisions about their Energy and Climate Change if he will bring forward most efficient and sustainable use. proposals to protect consumers who enter into fixed-term energy contracts from large early termination penalties. Renewable Energy: Heating [37123] Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for Charles Hendry: Currently we have no plans to bring Energy and Climate Change what plans he has to forward the proposals the hon. Member asks about. subsidise renewable heat energy. [37977] The setting of termination fees is a contractual matter between the supplier and the customer. The fees are Gregory Barker: We expect to be in a position to designed to cover the costs incurred by the supplier announce the details of the renewable heat incentive when a customer switches away before the end of the (RHI) scheme shortly and to be open for business fixed-term contract. from 2011. Ofgem are currently consulting on fixed-term contract practices in the domestic supply market.

Fuel Poverty CABINET OFFICE

Social Security Benefits: Advisory Services Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change who the chair of the fuel poverty review is. [38020] Chris Ruane: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office whether he plans to allocate additional resources to voluntary sector benefit advice agencies during the Gregory Barker: An announcement about the period of reductions in public sector expenditure. Independent Reviewer will be made in due course. [37505]

Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Davey: I have been asked to reply. Energy and Climate Change when he expects the The Government are directing at least £470 million Government’s fuel poverty review to report. [38021] over the spending review period to support capacity building in the voluntary sector, including a £100 million Gregory Barker: We expect the Review of Fuel Poverty Transition Fund as short-term support for voluntary to report by the end of the year. sector organisations providing public services. 913W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 914W

HOME DEPARTMENT are operationally independent of the Government so any questions on arrests at the National Campaign Anti-Semitism Against Fees and Cuts, which took place in Manchester, would need to be directed to the chief constable of Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for the Greater Manchester police. Home Department pursuant to the answer of 6 July 2010, Official Report, column 195W, on anti-Semitism, Asylum if she will make it her policy to collect details of (a) victims and (b) alleged offenders of anti-Semitic crime; and if she will make a statement. [38033] Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether gender-related James Brokenshire: The Coalition programme for persecution claims are considered as claims unlikely to government included a commitment to improve the be accepted into the fast track detention process for recording of hate crime offences. This has been implemented asylum seekers. [38149] and the official collection of this data will begin in April 2011. This collection of data will cover the five ‘monitored’ Damian Green: Entry to the detained fast track procedure hate crime strands and, at this time, it will not be is determined by reference to published policy. The possible to disaggregate this data down further. We will policy lays out categories of claimant who, for reasons continue discussions with the police to see whether it is of particular vulnerability, are excluded from entry to feasible to break this data down further so that anti-Semitic the process. These reasons include late pregnancy, significant hate crime can be collected. These discussions will have ill-health and where the applicants are accepted as to include whether the disaggregation of this data will victims of trafficking or torture. For all other claimants, add to the bureaucratic burden on police officers, which the key factor determining entry to the process is whether is something the Government have committed to reduce. a quick, fair and sustainable decision can be taken on the case. The Community Security Trust (CST) and the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) National The question of suitability for entering the process is Community Tension Team (NCTT) collect data on considered on a case-by-case basis, based on what is reports of anti-Semitic hate crime and will continue to known about the individual and their claim. do so. The ACPO NCTT data, published on 30 November 2010 showed that there were 703 anti-Semitic hate crimes Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for in calendar year 2009. The latest figures from the CST the Home Department how many asylum seekers of will be released in the near future. each country of origin have participated in the detained fast track process in each year for which figures are Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for the available. [38150] Home Department if she will commission a report from the Commissioner of Police for the Metropolis on Damian Green: The following tables show the number allegations of anti-Semitic comments made at the of asylum applicants who have been accepted in a fast National Campaign Against Fees and Cuts protest on track centre by nationality and location, for the years in 29 January 2011; whether any arrests have been made which data are available. in consequence of such allegations; and if she will Further information on asylum fast track detainees is make a statement. [R] [38050] available in Supplementary Tables 2r to 2u of Control of Immigration: Annual Bulletin, United Kingdom 2009 James Brokenshire: The Government deplore any in the Library of the House and the Home Office’s instances of anti-Semitism and are committed to tackling Research, Development and Statistics website at: it. We have no plans to commission a report from the http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/immigration-asylum- Commissioner of Police for the Metropolis. The police stats.html

Principal asylum applicants accepted at fast track centres, by country of nationality, 2001-091,2 Number of principal applicants 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 Country of nationality Oakington Oakington Oakington Harmondsworth Oakington Harmondsworth Yarl’s Wood Oakington

Albania 450 335 190 40 140 20 5 80 Macedonia 10 70 20 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Moldova * 5 105 n/a 70 n/a n/a 35 Russia * n/a n/a n/a 20 10 5 15 Turkey * 840 865 85 605 95 5 340 Ukraine 185 145 155 n/a 70 n/a n/a 25 Bulgaria * 30 10 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Cyprus n/a 5 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Czech 710 645 40 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Republic Estonia 20 10 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Hungary 5 n/a 10 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Latvia 80 125 20 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 915W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 916W

Principal asylum applicants accepted at fast track centres, by country of nationality, 2001-091,2 Number of principal applicants 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 Country of nationality Oakington Oakington Oakington Harmondsworth Oakington Harmondsworth Yarl’s Wood Oakington

Lithuania 110 200 20 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Poland 430 460 35 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Romania 345 335 195 n/a 110 n/a n/a 40 Slovakia 40 75 10 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Other Former 8— 8— 8— 8— 8— 8— 8— 8— USSR Armenia n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 5 n/a n/a Belarus n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 10 5 n/a Georgia n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 15 n/a n/a Kazakhstan n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Uzbekistan n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Other Europe 8— 8— 8— 8— 8— 8— 8— 8— Croatia n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Kosovo n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Serbia and n/a n/a 180 5 70 5 n/a 50 Montenegro4 Federal 390 265 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Republic of Yugoslavia4 Colombia n/a n/a n/a n/a 15 15 n/a 20 Ecuador n/a n/a 20 n/a 25 n/a n/a n/a Jamaica * * 340 95 220 85 10 160 Other 8— 8— 8— 8— 8— 8— 8— 8— Americas Bolivia 15 15 15 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Brazil 10 15 10 n/a 25 n/a n/a n/a Cuba n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Guyana n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Algeria n/a n/a n/a 10 65 10 n/a 50 Angola n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 10 n/a n/a Burundi * n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Cameroon 155 140 n/a 45 100 35 5 60 Congo n/a 40 10 5 25 10 n/a 10 Dem. Rep. of * n/a n/a 10 30 35 5 85 Congo Eritrea n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 5 295 Ethiopia n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 20 n/a n/a Gambia n/a n/a n/a 25 45 30 5 25 Ghana 95 120 100 125 135 75 10 75 Ivory Coast 65 80 65 25 125 5 n/a 110 Kenya 100 80 25 5 35 5 5 35 Liberia n/a n/a 10 10 35 15 5 35 Libya n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 5 n/a n/a Nigeria 405 450 300 165 540 250 55 270 Rwanda * n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Sierra Leone 20 25 n/a n/a 20 10 n/a 15 Somalia * n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 25 Sudan n/a n/a n/a n/a 10 15 n/a n/a Tanzania 30 10 10 n/a n/a 5 n/a n/a Uganda 225 190 65 50 110 55 20 45 Zimbabwe 1,260 865 25 n/a n/a 20 n/a 90 Other Africa 8— 8— 8— 8— 8— 8— 8— 8— Chad n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Egypt n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 20 n/a n/a Guinea n/a n/a n/a 5 25 25 n/a 15 Guinea-Bissau n/a * n/a 5 n/a n/a n/a n/a Malawi n/a * 50 35 55 30 15 35 Mauritania n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 5 n/a n/a Mauritius n/a n/a n/a 5 n/a n/a n/a n/a Morocco n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Namibia n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 917W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 918W

Principal asylum applicants accepted at fast track centres, by country of nationality, 2001-091,2 Number of principal applicants 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 Country of nationality Oakington Oakington Oakington Harmondsworth Oakington Harmondsworth Yarl’s Wood Oakington

Senegal n/a n/a 10 5 n/a n/a n/a n/a South Africa * 10 85 n/a 50 n/a n/a 55 Togo n/a * 10 5 15 20 n/a 25 Tunisia n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 5 n/a n/a Zambia * n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Iran * n/a n/a n/a 10 15 5 190 Iraq 1,030 75 65 n/a n/a n/a n/a 40 Syria n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 10 n/a 10 Other middle 8— 8— 8— 8— 8— 8— 8— 8— east Israel n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Lebanon n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 5 n/a n/a Palestine n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 10 n/a n/a Afghanistan 5 20 295 25 330 105 n/a 315 Bangladesh 190 155 190 5 205 45 5 130 China5 1,335 1,155 670 45 1,330 25 n/a 1,075 India 750 805 1,015 35 915 5 n/a 665 Pakistan 640 485 270 130 305 185 25 225 Sri Lanka * 30 235 5 160 n/a n/a 215 Vietnam n/a n/a n/a n/a 85 n/a n/a 110 Other Asia and 8— 8— 8— 8— 8— 8— 8— 8— Oceania Burma n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 5 n/a n/a (Myanmar) Hong Kong * n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Malaysia n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Mongolia n/a n/a n/a 10 45 10 5 25 Nepal n/a n/a n/a n/a 20 15 n/a n/a Philippines n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a South Korea n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Other 5 55 85 90 245 90 35 180 nationalities6

Number of principal applicants 2006 2007 Country of nationality Harmondsworth Yarl’s Wood Oakington Harmondsworth Yarl’s Wood Oakington3

Albania 25 n/a 40 5 5 5 Macedonia n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Moldova n/a n/a 5 n/a n/a 5 Russia 15 5 5 5 n/a n/a Turkey 105 25 20 30 15 5 Ukraine n/a n/a 15 n/a 5 5 Bulgaria n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Cyprus n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Czech Republic n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Estonia n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Hungary n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Latvia n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Lithuania n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Poland n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Romania n/a n/a 15 n/a n/a n/a Slovakia n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Other Former USSR 8— 8— 8— 8— 8— 8— Armenia n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Belarus 15 5 n/a 5 5 n/a Georgia 10 5 n/a 5 n/a n/a Kazakhstan n/a n/a n/a 5 n/a n/a Uzbekistan 10 n/a n/a 5 n/a n/a Other Europe 8— 8— 8— 8— 8— 8— Croatia n/a n/a n/a 5 n/a n/a 919W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 920W

Number of principal applicants 2006 2007 Country of nationality Harmondsworth Yarl’s Wood Oakington Harmondsworth Yarl’s Wood Oakington3

Kosovo n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 5 Serbia and 5 n/a 10 n/a n/a n/a Montenegro4 Federal Republic of n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Yugoslavia4 Colombia 20 5 n/a 10 5 n/a Ecuador n/a n/a 5 n/a 5 n/a Jamaica 25 10 50 10 25 15 Other Americas 8— 8— 8— 8— 8— 8— Bolivia n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Brazil n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Cuba n/a n/a n/a 5 n/a n/a Guyana n/a n/a n/a 5 n/a n/a Algeria 20 n/a 25 10 5 n/a Angola n/a n/a n/a 5 5 n/a Burundi n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Cameroon 20 20 30 20 20 n/a Congo 10 5 n/a n/a n/a n/a Dem. Rep. of Congo 15 5 30 5 10 n/a Eritrea 10 n/a 280 n/a n/a n/a Ethiopia 5 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Gambia 30 15 15 10 10 5 Ghana n/a 10 45 10 15 10 Ivory Coast 10 5 45 n/a 5 n/a Kenya20101010155 Liberia 15 n/a n/a n/a n/a 5 Libya 5 n/a 5 5 n/a n/a Nigeria 75 75 210 25 75 45 Rwanda n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Sierra Leone 10 5 5 n/a 10 n/a Somalia n/a n/a 5 n/a n/a n/a Sudan 35 n/a 5 5 n/a n/a Tanzania n/a n/a n/a n/a 5 n/a Uganda 35 20 n/a 20 20 5 Zimbabwe n/a n/a n/a n/a 5 5 Other Africa 8— 8— 8— 8— 8— 8— Chad 5 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Egypt 5 n/a n/a 5 5 n/a Guinea 20 5 n/a 5 5 n/a Guinea-Bissau n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Malawi 15 10 n/a 5 10 5 Mauritania n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Mauritius n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Morocco n/a n/a n/a 5 n/a n/a Namibia n/a 5 n/a n/a n/a n/a Senegal n/a n/a 5 n/a n/a n/a South Africa 5 n/a 15 5 10 10 Togo 5 5 n/a n/a 5 n/a Tunisia 10 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Zambia n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Iran 10 15 110 20 10 n/a Iraq n/a n/a 20 5 n/a n/a Syria 5 n/a 5 5 n/a n/a Other middle east 8— 8— 8— 8— 8— 8— Israel n/a n/a n/a 5 n/a n/a Lebanon 5 n/a 5 n/a n/a n/a Palestine n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Afghanistan 115 n/a 95 80 n/a 5 Bangladesh 140 n/a 30 80 5 10 China5 25 20 515 45 55 5 India 10 n/a 370 5 20 135 921W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 922W

Number of principal applicants 2006 2007 Country of nationality Harmondsworth Yarl’s Wood Oakington Harmondsworth Yarl’s Wood Oakington3

Pakistan 155 30 30 155 55 5 Sri Lanka 15 10 175 45 30 15 Vietnam n/a n/a 10 5 n/a n/a Other Asia and 8— 8— 8— 8— 8— 8— Oceania Burma (Myanmar) n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Hong Kong n/a n/a n/a 5 n/a n/a Malaysia n/a n/a n/a 5 5 n/a Mongolia 5 n/a 25 n/a 5 n/a Nepal 25 5 n/a 5 n/a n/a Philippines n/a n/a n/a 5 n/a n/a South Korea n/a n/a n/a 5 5 n/a Other nationalities6 90 55 35 45 40 15

Number of principal applicants 2008 20097 Country of nationality Harmondsworth Yarl’s Wood Harmondsworth Yarl’s Wood

Albania 20 * 40 5 Macedonia — — — — Moldova 5 5 * * Russia 10 5 * * Turkey 45 10 55 10 Ukraine 5 5 10 5 Bulgaria — — — — Cyprus — — — — Czech Republic — — — — Estonia — — — — Hungary — — — — Latvia — — — — Lithuania — — — — Poland — — — — Romania — — — — Slovakia — — — — Other Former USSR 15 10 15 5 Armenia n/a n/a n/a n/a Belarus n/a n/a n/a n/a Georgia n/a n/a n/a n/a Kazakhstan n/a n/a n/a n/a Uzbekistan n/a n/a n/a n/a Other Europe 5 * 10 * Croatia n/a n/a n/a n/a Kosovo n/a n/a n/a n/a Serbia and Montenegro4 n/a n/a n/a n/a Federal Republic of Yugoslavia4 n/a n/a n/a n/a Colombia 5 * 5 — Ecuador * * — — Jamaica 30 25 35 15 Other Americas 20 15 30 15 Bolivia n/a n/a n/a n/a Brazil n/a n/a n/a n/a Cuba n/a n/a n/a n/a Guyana n/a n/a n/a n/a Algeria 25 5 20 * Angola * * — * Burundi — — — * Cameroon 10 10 5 * Congo 5 — 5 * Dem. Rep. of Congo 5 5 5 * Eritrea — * — — Ethiopia * n/a — 5 923W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 924W

Number of principal applicants 2008 20097 Country of nationality Harmondsworth Yarl’s Wood Harmondsworth Yarl’s Wood

Gambia 5 10 20 10 Ghana 15 15 15 10 Ivory Coast 5 — * * Kenya 10201515 Liberia — — 5 — Libya 10 * 5 — Nigeria 85 75 140 45 Rwanda * * — * Sierra Leone 5 5 * 5 Somalia — * — * Sudan * — — — Tanzania 5 5 5 5 Uganda 30 15 30 30 Zimbabwe * 5 5 5 Other Africa 80 50 75 70 Chad n/a n/a n/a n/a Egypt n/a n/a n/a n/a Guinea n/a n/a n/a n/a Guinea-Bissau n/a n/a n/a n/a Malawi n/a n/a n/a n/a Mauritania n/a n/a n/a n/a Mauritius n/a n/a n/a n/a Morocco n/a n/a n/a n/a Namibia n/a n/a n/a n/a Senegal n/a n/a n/a n/a South Africa n/a n/a n/a n/a Togo n/a n/a n/a n/a Tunisia n/a n/a n/a n/a Zambia n/a n/a n/a n/a Iran 10 10 30 20 Iraq 20 * 15 — Syria * — * — Other middle east 10 5 5 — Israel n/a n/a n/a n/a Lebanon n/a n/a n/a n/a Palestine n/a n/a n/a n/a Afghanistan 180 5 380 — Bangladesh 85 5 100 10 China5 50 90 75 90 India 30 15 120 20 Pakistan 245 55 320 60 Sri Lanka 40 15 5 5 Vietnam 10 * 5 * Other Asia and Oceania 30 10 25 15 Burma (Myanmar) n/a n/a n/a n/a Hong Kong n/a n/a n/a n/a Malaysia n/a n/a n/a n/a Mongolia n/a n/a n/a n/a Nepal n/a n/a n/a n/a Philippines n/a n/a n/a n/a South Korea n/a n/a n/a n/a Other nationalities6 ———— n/a = not available 1 Figures rounded to the nearest five ( — = 0, *=1or2). 2 Harmondsworth fast track centre opened in 2004; Yarl’s Wood Fast Track centre opened in 2005. 3 The detained non-suspensive appeal process for females at Oakington moved in 2008 to Yarl’s Wood alongside the female detained fast track process already there. 4 Serbia and Montenegro replaced Federal Republic of Yugoslavia from 5 February 2003. Serbia and Montenegro comprises Republic of Serbia, Republic of Montenegro, and Kosovo. 5 Figures for China in 2008 and 2009 include Taiwan. 6 ‘Other nationalities’ data include figures for nationalities not listed here (2001-07) and unknown nationalities for all years. In 2008 and 2009, other nationalities are counted in ‘Other Europe’, ‘Other Americas’, ‘Other middle east’, ‘Other Asia and Oceania’ and ‘Other Africa’. 7 Provisional figures 8 Not applicable 925W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 926W

Departmental Art Works Flight trial over using C-VON Inc RS700 system. Fuel bowser and radio support/operator at Caerwent. STC modification for RS705 Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Research Project looking at CCTV imagery format structure for the Home Department how many pieces of artwork Flexible ballistics shield including removable armoured plates her Department has moved since May 2010. [37579] Trial facilities Health and Safety assessment of activities associated with Damian Green: Since May 2010 no pieces of artwork examining chemicals at Heathrow and provisional advice on PPE owned by the Home Office in its headquarters have and engineering controls been moved. The Government Art Collection is responsible Preliminary review on strategic options for the closure of FSS for moving the Government Art in the building on loan Community training tackling violence against women and to the Department. Since May 2010 a piece of public girls. art situated in the building’s water feature was moved by The monetary value of one contract and its extension, the PFI supplier at its own expense for security reasons. on research on advanced non-bio chips for saliva-based Departmental Furniture drug tests, at a total value of £120,244 was above the EU public procurement threshold. Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how much her Department Departmental Video Recordings has spent on furniture since May 2010. [37580] Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Damian Green: Home Office Headquarters at Marsham for the Home Department how much her Department street has spent £41,000 plus VAT on furniture since has spent on film production, including the filming of May. 50% of this was used to support the move of speeches, since May 2010. [37576] additional staff into the building as part of an estate rationalisation plan that delivers greater value for money Damian Green: Film is used throughout the Home from our office accommodation. Office and its agencies for training purposes and to Departmental Procurement communicate with staff. The total cost of film production is not information which is either centrally held or Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for the readily collated so could be gathered only at Home Department what single tender contracts her disproportionate cost. Department has awarded since her appointment; and Detention Centres: Children what the monetary value is of each contract above the EU public procurement threshold. [36187] Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for the Damian Green: The Home Department acquires goods Home Department how many children are held in and services through open and fair competition unless immigration detention; and how many were so held in there are compelling reasons to the contrary. The Home each month since September 2010. [37736] Department has awarded the following single tender contracts since May 2010: Damian Green: As at 30 September 2010, the latest RS-740 Directional Capability date for which National Statistics have been published, Repair of Fieldpro 5X Thermal Imaging Camera five children were detained solely under Immigration Air Products gases and gas bottles Act powers. This figure is rounded to the nearest five. Universal digital CCTV replay software The latest published management information for the Toppings of fields at Sandridge numbers of children entering detention, held solely Laboratory gases safety awareness workshops and connecting under Immigration Act powers were: 15 in October 2010, regulators three in November 2010 and three in December 2010. Intruder Alarm systems annual maintenance These figures may include age disputed cases. Removal of L3 Provision Body Scanner Unit The Home Office publishes National Statistics on the Juno test and evaluation unit and training session number of persons detained solely under Immigration Premiair AS355 Space Pod—RSI700 Approvals Act powers on a quarterly and annual basis and Facility hire for HOSDB trials management information on the number of children Vessel Arrest Launcher VA10/Vessel Arrest fence entering detention, held solely under Immigration Act TracER-532-6W Compact Forensic Laser System powers, by month, which are available from the Library Saliva-based Drug Tests at the Point-of-Arrest and extension of the House and from the Home Office’s Research, Support for management of “FALL” image data Development and Statistics website at: Delivery of processed explosives to HOSDB site www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/immigration-asylum-stats.html V-OVG live CW/explosive calibration Vapour Generator On 16 December 2010, the right hon. Member the UV camera and IRIS software integration Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Clegg) announced a new Monitor and report on developments in XML specifications to package to deliver the coalition commitment to end the IST/44 and HODSB and ensure timely and effective definition of detention of children for immigration purposes and the UK portion for input immediate closure of the family unit to children at Workshops at University of Glamorgan the Yarl’s Wood Immigration Removal Centre. Access to Caerwent facility The UK Border Agency will now follow a new four FALCON hand held detector for hidden explosives and stage process focused on engagement with families during contraband. FALCON visual display the decision making process, giving parents the opportunity Use of Millbrook track and facilities to engage in when and how they return, when they have 927W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 928W been found to have no legal right to stay in the UK. The question. However, initial discussions between officials new measures will ensure a family’s return home is safe and non-governmental organisations about the strategy and dignified. Most elements of this new approach will took place at the UK Human Trafficking Centre Prevention be in place in March. Group. Entry Clearances: Appeals Internal work has been progressing on the human trafficking strategy and it is now being discussed with non-governmental organisations. I will be meeting them Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for during this phase of developing the strategy. the Home Department what reasons her Department has identified for the doubling in the number of appeals Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home against refusals of entry clearance between 2005 and Department what consideration she gave to the consulting 2006; and for what reasons the number of such appeals non-governmental organisations on the formulation and has remained broadly constant since 2006. [33737] content of the Government’s forthcoming policy on human trafficking between 15 December 2010 and 26 Damian Green: The Control of Immigration: Statistics January 2011; and if she will make a statement. [37442] 2006, does not specify a reason for the increase in appeals lodged and there was no change in the immigration rules that could account for the increase. It is possible Damian Green: Internal work has been progressing that a change in the method of recording appeals in on the human trafficking strategy and we are now in the 2006 may have been a contributory factor. However, in process of discussing it with voluntary sector organisations. spite of best endeavours, the Department has been unable to account reliably for this increase. Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if she will assess the compatibility The number of appeals reduced in 2010 due to the of her Department’s conduct of the consultation impact of the points-based system which attracts limited process on its policy on human trafficking with the rights of appeal, on human rights and race relations Government’s Big Society initiative; and if she will grounds only. make a statement. [37443] Entry Clearances: Overseas Students Damian Green: Internal work has been progressing Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for the on the human trafficking strategy and we are now in the Home Department how many entry visas her Department process of discussing it with non-governmental issued to non-EU nationals for the study of English as a organisations. second language in each year since 2006. [37737] The voluntary sector plays a key role in the provision of support to victims of human trafficking. We are Damian Green: The information requested is not held strongly supportive of this role and will continue to centrally by the UK Border Agency. It could be provided work in partnership with voluntary organisations to by checking individual records, only at disproportionate reduce the incidence of human trafficking. cost. Ministers’ Private Offices Foreign Workers

Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for the Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Home Department what estimate she has made of the for the Home Department how much her Department number of non-EU nationals working in the NHS with has spent on redecorating ministerial offices since May 2010. [37581] an appropriate visa. [37991]

Damian Green: It is not possible to provide an accurate Damian Green: Since May 2010, an estimated £2,000 estimate of the number of non-EU nationals working has been spent on repainting and maintaining the in the NHS with an appropriate visa. This is because Department’s ministerial offices. there are some migrants lawfully here who are free to access the labour market without informing the UK Police: Demonstrations Border Agency where they are working at any given time. Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for Human Trafficking the Home Department (1) if she will review guidance to police forces on the practice of kettling in policing demonstrations; and if she will introduce procedures Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home for her Department to monitor compliance by police Department which non-governmental organisations (a) forces with such guidance; [37901] she has met to discuss and (b) were consulted on the formulation and content of the Government’s policy on (2) what assessment she has made of the effectiveness human trafficking between 14 October 2010 and of her Department’s guidance to police forces on the 15 December 2010; and if she will make a statement. use of kettling in policing demonstrations. [37904] [37441] James Brokenshire: The use of police tactics, such as Damian Green: There were no ministerial discussions containment, is an operational matter for police forces. or consultations with non-governmental organisations The courts have ruled that containment is a lawful tactic about the forthcoming strategy during the period in when used proportionately. 929W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 930W

The Association of Chief Police Officers has recently DEFENCE published revised guidance on public order policing Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations which includes guidance on containment. Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary will shortly be publishing a report on how recommendations from its 2009 Adapting Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for to Protest Report, including those on containment, Defence how many (a) C-17s, (b) TriStars and (c) have been met. VC10-s are owned and operated by the RAF; how many are serviceable at any one time; and how many have operated in the Afghan theatre in each month Police: Powers since January 2010. [34958]

Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Robathan: The available information is provided the Home Department what recent representations she in the following table. In service aircraft includes those has received on police powers on noise abatement rules undergoing planned depth maintenance but excludes in respect of the provisions of the Police Reform and those which are redundant, declared as surplus or awaiting Social Responsibility Bill. [36070] disposal. The forward fleet (FF) comprises aircraft which are serviceable or short-term unserviceable. Fit James Brokenshire: The only measures relating to for purpose (FFP) aircraft include only serviceable aircraft noise which the Government are bringing forward in available to the front-line commands for operational the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill are and training purposes. The number of aircraft available focused on regulating the use of loudhailers on Parliament in each category varies according to normal fleet square. The Government have discussed these provisions management activities including requirements for mandated with Westminster city council, the Greater London maintenance and upgrade programmes. Figures for FF authority and the Metropolitan police service. and FFP are monthly averages for 2010.

C-17 TriStar VC10 In service Forward Fit for In service Forward Fit for In service Forward Fit for Month fleet fleet purpose fleet fleet purpose fleet fleet purpose

January 6 5.3 3.6 9 4.9 2.9 15 12.5 6.2 February 6 5.3 4.1 9 4.4 3.0 15 12.3 7.3 March 6 5.1 4.4 9 5.3 2.5 15 11.9 6.3 April 6 5.1 4.0 9 6.3 3.1 13 9.6 4.7 May 6 5.5 4.3 9 5.5 2.0 13 10.3 6.1 June 6 5.4 4.9 9 5.7 2.6 13 9.9 6.5 July 6 5.6 5.2 9 5.7 2.4 13 9.7 5.5 August 6 4.2 3.3 9 6 2.9 13 9.6 5.8 September 6 4.4 3.8 9 6 3.6 13 10.6 6.9 October 6 5.0 4.6 9 5 2.9 13 10.6 7.6 November 6 5.2 4.7 9 4.9 2.7 13 10.5 6.4 December 6 5.7 5.3 9 4.9 1.9 13 11.2 6.9

The number of aircraft operated each month in support for serving members of the armed forces will be applicable of Operation Herrick cannot be broken down to individual wherever they are based in the UK, including Scotland airframe level. No VC10 has operated on the Airbridge and Wales. since January 2010. Armed Forces: Mental Health Services

Armed Forces: Health Services Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether his proposal to increase compensation payments for ex-service personnel suffering mental health Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for disorders will apply to service personnel based in (a) Defence whether funding for the health for heroes Scotland and (b) Wales. [38132] campaign will be allocated to armed forces based in (a) Scotland and (b) Wales. [38131] Mr Robathan: Yes. The increased payments will apply to all eligible personnel in the UK armed forces, regardless Mr Robathan: “Health for heroes” is an informal of where they are based. reference that has recently been applied by the press to the medical care provided for the armed forces and Army ex-service personnel, with a particular emphasis on mental health care. We have a wide range of current and Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for planned initiatives across Government to support serving Defence what the (a) required, (b) actual and (c) and former members of the armed forces, such as the fit-for-task strength is of each corps of the Army. [35890] ‘Fighting Fit’ review by my hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison) and our enhancements Mr Robathan: In the table “required strength” and to health care services as part of the Strategic Defence “actual strength” figures are shown as “funded liability” and Security Review. Any enhancements to health care and “trained strength” respectively. 931W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 932W

“Fit for Task” has been interpreted as fit to deploy Financial year 2007-08 for any form of duty on deployment, including personnel Ammunition type Quantity/cost listed as having limited deployability. Round 14.5MM Artillery Training Charge 2 15,005 “Funded Liability” means the number of personnel L2A1 required in each corps. “Trained Strength” is the number Shell 105MM FD HE L31A3 Fuzed L116A1 1,000 of personnel in that corps who have completed initial W/Cart Normal L35A3 training—which for the Army is Phase 1 and Phase 2 Shell 105MM FD HE L31A4 Fuzed L106A4 2,400 training—as at 1 November 2010. The trained strength W/Cart Normal L35A3 will fluctuate according to the number of recruits Shell 105MM FD BE Smoke Screening 1 successfully completing initial training and personnel L45A2 Fuzed L92A2 Shell 105MM FD BE SMK SCR L45A2 1 leaving the Corps. The difference between “Trained FZD L92A2 W/Cart Nor L35A2 Strength” and “Number Fit for Task” accounts for Shell 105MM FD Marker Orange Smoke 825 trained personnel who are classed as “non-deployable L38A2 Fuzed L32A3 due to illness or injury.” Cartridge Propelling 105MM FD Normal 144 Figures for the Regular Army1 L35A3 Funded Trained Number fit Cartridge Blank 105 MM FD 6OZ GP 26 Organisation liability strength for task L48A1 Cartridge Blank 105MM FD 12O Z GP 8 Staff 716 820 790 L47A1 Royal Armoured Corps 5,778 6,000 5,680 Shell 155MM HE L21A2 Plugged 13,100 Royal Artillery 7,632 7,710 7,220 Charge Propelling 155MM M3A1 12,190 Royal Engineers 9,528 9,660 9,210 Charge Propelling 155MM M4A2 910 Royal Signals 8,222 7,600 7,180 Charge Propelling 155MM L10A1 Charge 8 326 Infantry 24,631 24,750 22,930 W/Prim DM191A1 Army Air Corps 2,016 2,140 2,050 Shell 155MM SMK BE DM105A2 FZD 275 Royal Army Chaplains 150 130 120 L132A1/CHGE L8A1/PRIM DM191A1 Department Shell 155MM Illuminating DM106A2 Fuzed 102 Royal Logistics Corps 15,487 15,420 14,230 L132A1 Royal Army Medical Corps 3,489 3,010 2,750 Shell 155MM Illum DM106A2 FZD 321 Royal Electrical and 9,741 10,010 9,430 L132A1/CHGE L8A1/PRIM DM191A1 Mechanical Engineers Shell 155MM Practice Inert L17A2 with PRF 326 Fuze Nose Electronic Time ETF L132A1 2 Adjutant General’s Corps Fuze Nose Proximity and Percussion L116A1 920 Provost 1,792 1,700 1,580 Fuze Nose Percussion Direct Action and 12,180 Staff and Personnel Support 3,858 3,750 3,350 Graze L160A1 Military Provost Service 139 110 110 Primer Percussion DM191A1 326 Educational and Training 317 340 310 Primer Percussion M82 31,083 Services MLRS Reduced Range Practice Rocket L1A1 74 Army Legal Services 105 120 110 Unspecified — 10 — Total cost (£) 14,139,251.10

Royal Army Veterinary 220 350 320 Financial year 2008-09 Corps Ammunition type Quantity/cost Small Arms School Corps 153 160 150 Royal Army Dentistry Corps 411 370 330 Round 14.5MM Artillery Training Charge 2 15,000 Intelligence Corps 1,688 1,530 1,450 L2A1 Army Physical Training 462 480 450 Shell 105MM FD HE L31A4 Fuzed L106A4 16,623 Corps W/Cart Normal L35A3 Queen Alexandra’s Royal 1,318 900 790 Shell 105MM FD BE SMK SCR L45A2 FZD 1,290 Auxiliary Nursing Corps L92A2 W/Cart Nor L35A2 Corps of Army Music 907 790 750 Shell 105MM FD Illuminating Para L43A3 348 Fuzed L92A2 Long Service List 570 340 310 1 Shell 105MM FD Marker Orange Smoke L38A2 250 Trained strength and fit for task figures are rounded. These figures are Fuzed L32A3 provisional, and subject to review. Cartridge Propelling 105MM FD Normal L35A3 250 Artillery: Training Shell 155MM HE L21A2 Plugged 905 Charge Propelling 155MM M3A1 453 Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Charge Propelling 155MM M4A2 453 Defence how much ammunition was allocated to Charge Propelling 155MM L10A2 Charge 8 397 courses involving the training of artillery personnel Shell 155MM SMK BE DM105A2 FZD L92A2/ 97 and forward observation officers to call in fire in each Chge L8A1/PRIM DM191A1 year since 2008; and what the cost of such ammunition Shell 155MM Practice Inert L17A2 with PRF 397 Fuze Nose Percussion Direct Action and Graze 905 was. [37332] L106A4 Primer Percussion DM191A1 330 Mr Robathan: The amount and cost of ammunition Primer Percussion M82 996 allocated on all courses involving the training of artillery MLRS Reduced Range Practice Rocket L1A2 74 personnel and forward observation officers in each financial year since 2008 is shown in the following Total cost (£) 19,316,974.06 tables: 933W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 934W

Financial year 2009-10 Some hard copy photographs were produced for the Ammunition type Quantity/cost two display boards in MOD’s Main Building using Round 14.5MM Artillery Training Charge 2 L2A1 15,000 in-house resources. The cost of materials involved in Shell 105MM FD HE L31A4 Fuzed L106A4 15,706 producing and displaying these was £72. W/Cart Normal L35A3 There have been no other additional costs associated Shell 105MM FD HE L31A4 Fuzed L116A1 1 with ministerial photographs. W/Cart Normal L35A3 Shell 105MM FD BE SMK SCR L52A1 FZD 1,291 Departmental Public Expenditure L132A1 W/Cart Nor L35A3 Shell 105MM FD Illuminating L43A4 Fuzed 623 L132A1 Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Cartridge Propelling 105MM FD Normal L35A3 620 Defence which programmes funded by his Department Shell 155MM HE L21A2 Plugged 1,678 are taking place in (a) Afghanistan, (b) Angola, (c) Charge Propelling 155MM M3A1 902 Burkina Faso, (d) Burma, (e) Burundi, (f) Central Charge Propelling 155MM M4A2 776 African Republic, (g) Chad, (h) Congo, (i) Ivory Coast, Charge Propelling 155MM L8A2 Charge 3 to 7 160 (j) the Democratic Republic of Congo, (k) Ethiopia, Shell 155MM Smoke BE DM 105A2 Fuzed L132A1 97 (l) Guinea, (m) Guinea Bissau, (n) Haiti, (o) Iraq, Shell 155MM Illuminating DM106A2 Fuzed 63 (p) Kenya, (q) Liberia, (r) Malawi, (s) Nigeria, L132A1 (t) Pakistan, (u) Somalia, (v) Sri Lanka, (w) Sudan, Fuze Nose Percussion Direct Action and Graze 1,678 L106A4 (x) Uganda, (y) Uzbekistan, (z) Yemen and (aa) Primer Percussion DM191A2 160 Zimbabwe; and what the cost of each such programme Primer Percussion M82 1,678 was in the last 12 months for which figures are available. [38129] MLRS Reduced Range Practice Rocket L1A2 74 Mr Robathan: In the past 12 months, the Ministry of Total cost (£) 19,611,296.85 Defence (MOD) has funded programmes to contribute Financial year 2010-11 to the delivery of defence engagement objectives in: Ammunition type Quantity/cost Afghanistan, Burundi, Congo, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Ethiopia, Iraq, Ivory Coast, Kenya, Liberia, Round 14.5MM Artillery Training Charge 2 12,809 L2A1 Malawi, Nigeria, Pakistan, Somalia, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Shell 105MM FD HE L31A4 Fuzed L106A4 15,325 Uganda, Yemen and Zimbabwe. W/Cart Normal L35A3 In the past 12 months, the MOD has not funded any Shell 105MM FD HE L31A4 Fuzed L116A1 792 programmes in: Angola, Burkina Faso, Burma, Central W/Cart Normal L35A3 African Republic, Chad, Guinea, Guinea Bissau, Haiti, Shell 105MM FD BE SMK SCR L52A1 FZD 4,189 L132A1 W/Cart Nor L35A3 Uzbekistan. Shell 105MM FD Illuminating L43A4 Fuzed 1,683 The programmes aim to enhance bilateral relationships L132A1 and build stability overseas as part of the Government’s Cartridge Propelling 105MM FD Normal 371 wider foreign policy goals. They consist of a wide range L35A3 of activities including (but not limited to): Shell 155MM HE L21A2 Plugged 872 Charge Propelling 155MM M3A1 907 Providing places on defence education and training courses in the UK (such as the Army, RAF and Navy Junior Officer Charge Propelling 155MM L8A2 Charge 3 to 7 98 Training and the Joint Services Advanced Command and Staff Charge Propelling 155MM L10A2 Charge 8 238 Course); Shell 155MM Smoke BE DM105A2 Fuzed 58 L132A1 The deployment of UK personnel in support of permanent British Peace Support Teams and British Military Advisory and Shell 155MM Illuminating DM106A2 Fuzed 34 L132A1 Training Teams; Shell 155MM Practice Inert L17A3 with PRF 102 The deployment of Short Term Training Teams to deliver Fuze Nose Percussion Direct Action and Graze 907 subject specific training in country; L106A4 Advisory visits, Defence Staff Talks and Senior Leadership Primer Percussion DM191A2 337 engagement either in the UK or in country. Primer Percussion M82 907 In addition to MOD-specific funds, some of these MLRS Reduced Range Practice Rocket L1A2 86 activities receive funding from the tri-departmental Conflict Pool. Total cost (£) 28,618,743.15 It is not possible to provide a breakdown of the cost and details of individual programmes as its disclosure Departmental Photography would or would be likely to prejudice relations between the UK and other states. Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how much his Department has spent on Lynx Helicopters taking, mounting and hanging photographs of its Ministers since April 2010. [38133] Mr Carswell: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will review the terms under which the Mr Robathan: It is longstanding practice to display Future Lynx contract was awarded. [37183] pictures of Ministers in the Ministry of Defence (MOD). Photographs of the new Defence Ministers were taken Peter Luff: There are currently no plans to review the by in-house MOD photographers as part of their normal terms under which the Future Lynx contract was awarded. duty. No additional costs were incurred. The strategic defence and security review has confirmed 935W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 936W that Lynx Wildcat continues to represent the best solution Medoc to deliver the combined requirement of both the Royal Modulex Navy and Army. However, as part of the Department’s Pathfinder wider contract re-negotiating strategy all major equipment Pony Express procurements will be reviewed for possible savings measures. Ponte Vecchio/Tower Bridge Military Exercises Readiness Challenge Lion Star 1 Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Lion Star 2 Defence how many and what proportion of training Iron Ram/Ferro Ariete exercises were cancelled in 2010; and what exercises Bass Rock those were. [36076] Anatolian Eagle 10 Green Flag West 10-9 Mr Robathan: The following list shows the exercises that had been scheduled and subsequently cancelled in Torpedo Focus 10-3 the calendar year 2010: Pitch Black Exercise Bold Avenger 10 TLP10-4 Jordan Express Tactical Leadership Training (TLT) Malaysian Express Emerald Move Steppe Eagle RM CT2 Coy Trg Cossack Steppe Auriga US Enterprise C2X French Connection Rimpac 10 Tricolour Asterix The proportion of cancelled exercises is normally calculated on a financial year basis. In financial year Winged Star 2009-10, there were 436 scheduled training events of Glow Worm/Rattlesnake which 59 (13.5%) were cancelled. Figures for financial Gobi Dust year 2010-11 will be released as part of the Ministry of African Thorn Defence Annual Report and Accounts. Oman Express Bald Eagle Nimrod Aircraft Chartered Flight Citadel Mr Charles Walker: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what effect withdrawing RAF Nimrods will Crown Eagle have on the armed forces’ ability to (a) detect and (b) Destier/Aurige track foreign military operations; and if he will make a Silver Eagle statement. [38018] Steam Drive Top Kitten Mr Robathan: The armed forces retain a number of Tunuk Warrior assets capable of detecting and tracking foreign military Wet Gap operations. In view of the sensitive and classified nature of some of the military tasks for which the Nimrod Work Sheet MRA4 was theoretically designed, I cannot comment Roman Eagle further on these capabilities. Turtle Truss Lion Sun 1 Nuclear Weapons Lion Sun 2 Crown Pinnacle 10-4 Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for TLP 10-5 Defence when preliminary discussions commenced Crown Condor with the French government on the scope of the treaty between the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ark Royal R2 Northern Ireland and the French Republic relating to Blue Flag joint radiographic/hydrodynamics facilities; and which 2 X Calfex teams from (a) his Department and (b) the Atomic Devils Hat Weapons Establishment were involved in preparation Devils Horizon of the treaty. [37493] First Eagle First Rock Peter Luff: Substantive discussions on the potential scope of a treaty between the UK and France for the Guibert construction and operation of joint radiographic facilities Horizon at Valduc, France and the Atomic Weapons Establishment Kleiber (AWE), commenced in July 2010. These followed Gaulish preliminary discussions based on an earlier proposal Longboat Warrior made in January 2009. Larksong Foxtrot Within the Ministry of Defence these discussions Marble Tor were led by a multidisciplinary team including policy, 937W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 938W technical and legal experts. Support from AWE was competency to fly specific aircraft types is then the provided by the Directorate of Research and Applied responsibility of the Military Aviation Authority and Science. the relevant single service.

Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for World War II Defence what contracts (a) have been awarded and (b) are expected to be awarded for the inception, design Mr Marcus Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for and construction of Project Hydrus at the Atomic Defence whether he has plans to bring forward Weapons Establishment. [37495] proposals to recognise the contribution made by munitions workers to the defence and security of the Peter Luff: Project Hydrus is part of the Nuclear UK during the second world war. [37096] Warhead Capability Sustainment Programme and is, therefore, incorporated in the management and operation Mr Prisk: I have been asked to reply. contract between the Ministry of Defence and AWE The Government fully recognise the courage and Management Ltd. fortitude of those who worked in munitions factories Work under this contract, in relation to Hydrus, during world war II. I am considering how we can best includes the awarding of subcontracts by AWE plc for acknowledge the contribution they made to the war inception, design, site preparation and construction. I effort and will provide a substantive response in due am withholding the details of these contracts as disclosure course. would prejudice commercial interests. The collaborative Anglo-French programme, Teutates, announced by the Prime Minister on 2 November 2010, Official Report, column 32WS, means that Hydrus will JUSTICE not now proceed as originally envisaged. Construction Courts: Closures activities will therefore not be undertaken. Rescue Services: Helicopters Mark Garnier: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what plans he has for future use of the building Mr Charles Walker: To ask the Secretary of State for used by Kidderminster county court after its closure. Defence whether he expects the RAF’s Hercules Fleet [37772] to retain the requisite systems and equipment for humanitarian search and rescue missions following the Mr Djanogly: The Ministry of Justice is not vacating Strategic Defence and Security Review; and if he will a building as a result of the closure. The county court make a statement. [38016] currently forms a small part of the much larger operational magistrates courthouse in Kidderminster. Peter Luff: The equipment used by the C-130 Hercules aircraft has not changed as a consequence of the Strategic Mark Garnier: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence and Security Review. This includes the ability Justice what estimate he has made of the level of savings to deploy Air Sea Rescue Apparatus for the Search and which will accrue from the closure of Kidderminster Rescue role. County Court. [37773]

Territorial Waters Mr Djanogly: The decision to transfer the Kidderminster county court counter service to Worcester combined Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for court while retaining county court hearings within the Defence what recent discussions his officials have had existing Kidderminster building was taken in order to with (a) Canadian, (b) US, (c) Norwegian and (d) provide a more consistent level of service for court French defence officials on maritime reconnaissance users. Therefore, my Department did not anticipate that and patrol of UK territorial waters. [37265] there would be (non staff) operational cost savings. Consultation with the trade unions is still ongoing and Mr Robathan: Ministry of Defence officials regularly therefore we are not in a position to confirm savings discuss maritime patrol issues with their counterparts related to staff costs. from allied nations, including Canada, the United States, Norway and France. Through these regular discussions Mark Garnier: To ask the Secretary of State for we have worked towards better co-operation for mutual Justice if he will assess the effects of closing Kidderminster benefit. county court on the status of the private finance initiative contract with Kidderminster magistrates court. [37774] Unmanned Air Vehicles Mr Djanogly: There will be no impact on the status of Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for the private finance initiative contract, which will continue Defence whether MQ-9 Reaper pilots are licensed to provide magistrates court buildings at Hereford, under the Civil Aviation Authority for that aircraft. Kidderminster, Redditch and Worcester. [37691] Mark Garnier: To ask the Secretary of State for Peter Luff: MQ-9 Reaper pilots are not licensed by Justice whether his Department plans to renegotiate the Civil Aviation Authority. Military pilots gain military the Kidderminster court house private finance flying qualifications following successful completion of initiative contract after the closure of Kidderminster theory, simulator and practical training. Their continuing county court. [37775] 939W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 940W

Mr Djanogly: There are currently no plans to renegotiate recovered from the opposing party in cases where the the private finance initiative contract after the closure party in receipt of legal aid succeeds, is shown as of Kidderminster county court. follows.

Legal Aid £ million

Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of 2000-01 20.2 State for Justice what plans he has for the future 2001-02 16.6 provision of legal aid in respect of advice on social 2002-03 14.9 welfare law; and if he will make a statement. [37591] 2003-04 8.4 2004-05 7.7 Mr Djanogly: On 15 November 2010, the Government 2005-06 3.2 published proposals for reform of legal aid including 2006-07 1-3.3 social welfare law. We propose that legal aid be retained 2007-08 1-0.6 in the highest priority cases—in debt and housing when 2008-09 1-2.6 someone’s home is at immediate risk, for homelessness 2009-10 0.2 case, and disrepair cases where health or life is at serious 1 Recovery risk. We will retain legal aid in Community Care cases. The reduction in the net expenditure is due to a Legal aid will also continue to be available where it is number of factors, including, the removal of personal now for unlawful discrimination employment cases. Under injury from the scope of legal aid, and the introduction these proposals legal aid would no longer be routinely of ‘risk rates’ for multi-party actions where legal aid is available in other social welfare law matters. paid at a third of the market rates throughout the duration of those cases where the full legal costs are Rushanara Ali: To ask the Secretary of State for likely to be recovered from the opposing party. The high Justice what estimate (a) his Department and (b) the spend in the early 2000s was due to discontinuing a Legal Services Commission has made of the number of number of very expensive actions, and the recoveries in legal aid funded cases that were unnecessary in the last the mid 2000s were due to success in a number of child four years. [37632] abuse cases. Mr Djanogly: Neither my Department nor the Legal Legal Aid: Cumbria Services Commission has made any such assessment. Cases granted legal aid funding will have satisfied the Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice current merits test (for civil legal aid) or the interests of how many people in (a) Cumbria and (b) justice test (for criminal legal aid). The proposals set Westmorland and Lonsdale constituency received legal within the recent legal aid consultation are designed to aid in each of the last five years. [37986] encourage people to explore alternative methods of dispute resolution and, where possible, to resolve their Mr Djanogly: The Legal Services Commission (LSC) problems without recourse to the courts. The aim is to does not record the number of people who receive legal create a stable and sustainable system that ensures aid, but instead records the number of ‘acts of assistance’. access to public funding in those cases that really require One individual may receive a number of separate acts of it, the protection of the most vulnerable in our society assistance, and one act of assistance can help more than and the efficient performance of our justice system. one person. Legal Aid Scheme The LSC does not record the grant of legal aid by constituency. However, the following tables show the Teresa Pearce: To ask the Secretary of State for numbers of acts of assistance based on legal aid providers Justice what funding the Legal Services Commission with postcodes falling within (a) the Cumbria procurement provided from the legal aid budget for legal assistance area and (b) the Westmorland and Lonsdale constituency. and representation relating to multi-party actions in The figures do not include legal aid received via each of the last 10 years. [38177] telephone advice, Community Legal Advice Centres, the Housing Possession Court Duty Scheme, telephone Mr Djanogly: Multi-party action legal aid expenditure triage, or family mediation. These figures are unavailable for each of the last 10 years, net of the legal aid costs at a constituency level.

Cumbria Procurement Area: Acts of assistance 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10

Civil Representation certificates issued 1,200 1,300 1,200 1,000 1,100 Legal Help New Matter Starts in Civil and Immigration 7,100 7,600 6,800 7,400 7,700 Crime Lower claim volumes 10,100 9,200 8,900 9,300 8,800 Crime Higher case volumes 700 700 800 1,100 1,100 Total 19,100 18,800 17,700 18,800 18,700

Westmorland and Lonsdale constituency: Acts of assistance 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10

Civil Representation certificates issued 100 100 100 100 100 Legal Help New Matter Starts in Civil and Immigration 1,900 2,500 2,600 2,600 2,500 941W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 942W

Westmorland and Lonsdale constituency: Acts of assistance 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10

Crime Lower claim volumes 1,300 1,100 1,100 1,200 1,200 Crime Higher case volumes 20 20 40 40 90 Total 3,320 3,720 3,840 3,940 3,890

Legal Aid: Greater London The LSC does not record the grant of legal aid by constituency. However, the tables below show the numbers Rushanara Ali: To ask the Secretary of State for of acts of assistance based on legal aid providers with Justice how many people in (a) London and (b) postcodes falling within (a) London and (b) Bethnal Bethnal Green and Bow constituency received legal aid Green and Bow constituency. in each of the last five years. [37623] The figures do not include legal aid received via Mr Djanogly: The Legal Services Commission (LSC) telephone advice, Community Legal Advice Centres, does not record the number of people who receive legal the Housing Possession Court Duty Scheme, telephone aid, but instead records the number of ‘acts of assistance’. triage, or family mediation. These figures are unavailable One individual may receive a number of separate acts of at a constituency level. assistance, and one act of assistance can help more than one person.

London—acts of assistance 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10

Civil Representation certificates issued 27,000 27,000 24,000 27,000 29,000 Legal Help New Matter Starts in Civil and Immigration 154,000 159,000 154,000 177,000 174,000 Crime Lower claim volumes 211,000 204,000 189,000 209,000 214,000 Crime Higher case volumes 21,000 20,000 23,000 26,000 28,000 Total 413,000 410,000 390,000 439,000 445,000

Bethnal Green and Bow constituency—acts of assistance 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10

Civil Representation certificates issued 850 1,250 1,200 1,200 1,300 Legal Help New Matter Starts in Civil and Immigration 6,650 7,550 9,500 13,100 11,500 Crime Lower claim volumes 2,800 2,900 2,700 4,300 5,800 Crime Higher case volumes 350 400 500 550 750 Total 10,650 12,100 13,900 19,050 19,350

Legal Aid: Prisoners reductions in expenditure on legal aid provision for social welfare issues on people in Coventry. [37908] Stephen Barclay: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what estimate he has made of the cost to the Mr Djanogly: There is no intention to conduct such public purse of providing legal aid to prisoners in an assessment. Impact assessments will be published respect of judicial review proceedings in each of the alongside any response to the legal aid consultation in last three years; and what the cost to the public purse due course, however these are unlikely to contain any was of defending against judicial review proceedings detailed geographic analysis of impacts. for prisoners (a) in receipt of legal aid and (b) not in receipt of legal aid. [37980] Magistrates Courts

Mr Djanogly: It is not possible to estimate the cost of Mark Garnier: To ask the Secretary of State for providing legal aid to prisoners in judicial review Justice what ongoing private finance initiative contractual proceedings, as the Legal Services Commission does obligations are in place in respect of Kidderminster not distinguish between prisoners and non-prisoners in magistrates court. [37771] granting legal aid for judicial reviews. With regards to the costs incurred by the Ministry of Mr Djanogly: The Ministry of Justice has on-going Justice and its associated bodies in defending itself private financial contractual obligations for the magistrates against judicial review proceedings, it is not possible to courts provided under the Herford and Worchester PFI provide accurate and up to date figures in the time contract (namely Hereford, Kidderminster, Redditch frame requested. I will write to the hon. Member when and Worcester) which runs from 28 February 2000 for this is available and place a copy of the letter in the 25 years. Libraries of the House. Legal Aid: Social Security Benefits Prisoners’ Release

Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Ian Swales: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice for Justice if he will assess the effects of his proposed what recent assessment he has made of the availability 943W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 944W of parole board hearings for persons imprisoned for research over the period of the comprehensive spending public protection. [38026] review; and if he will make a statement. [38014]

Mr Djanogly: The Ministry of Justice and the Parole Mr Simon Burns: The Department’s revenue allocations Board meet regularly to assess the Parole Board’s capacity for research and development are shown in the following to hold oral hearings for persons imprisoned for public table. protection. Joint working and careful planning have enabled the Parole Board to sit more oral hearing £ million panels a month. 2011-12 1,004 The following table shows the number of IPP 2012-13 1,030 (Imprisonment for Public Protection) cases considered 2013-14 1,059 by the Parole Board: 2014-15 1,089

Number The Department does not allocate funding specifically 2006-07 74 for biomedical research. It funds research through the 2007-08 253 National Institute for Health Research (NIHR) and the 2008-09 556 Department of Health Policy Research Programme. The NIHR funds a range of health research programmes 2009-10 1,432 and infrastructure including biomedical research centres 2010-11 (to 31 December 2010) 11,600 and biomedical research units. 1 Provisional Prisoners: Health Cancer: Drugs

Mr Buckland: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Jim Dobbin: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what assessment he has made of the potential merits what criteria the Cancer Drugs Fund will use to assess of introducing a generic health treatment community the appropriateness of funding a treatment; and order; and whether he has made an estimate of the whether he has any plans to establish an advisory number of people who could be subject to such orders board on such criteria. [37973] as an alternative to a short prison sentence in a year; [37544] Mr Simon Burns: We have consulted on our plans for (2) whether he has plans to make psychiatric reports the design of the Cancer Drugs Fund and our consultation available to courts in respect of defendants with mental closed on 19 January. Decisions on the implementation health disorders who may be eligible for a mental of the Cancer Drugs Fund will be taken once the health treatment requirement pursuant to a community responses to the consultation have been considered. order; [37545] (3) what plans he has to offer (a) mental health, (b) Cancer: Health Education alcohol and (c) drug treatment to offenders sentenced to community orders including health treatment Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health requirements. [37546] when he plans to publish his Department’s implementation plan for cancer information prescriptions. [37923] Mr Blunt: : The Government’s proposals for improving rehabilitation outcomes, including through improved Paul Burstow: On 11 January, we published “Improving access to mental health, drugs or alcohol treatment Outcomes: A Strategy for Cancer”, a copy of which has services, are set out in ‘Breaking the Cycle: Effective already been placed in the Library. The strategy reports Punishment, Rehabilitation and Sentencing of Offenders’, that the National Cancer Action Team, in partnership published on 7 December. with Macmillan Cancer Support and Cancer Research This consultation document also includes proposals UK, is supporting the use of information prescriptions for making better use of community sentences to punish (IPs) so that every cancer patient in England should be and rehabilitate offenders providing effective alternatives able to benefit over the lifetime of the strategy. Work is to custody where community-based punishment and continuing to develop the use of IPs throughout the treatment may be more appropriate. In particular, we cancer pathway. are consulting on options on how health treatment The implementation framework for cancer IPs is requirements should be formulated as part of community being piloted by a number of beacon sites in national orders, to better motivate and engage offenders into health service trusts. The framework is now being finalised treatment for mental health, drugs and alcohol problems. to reflect the early learning from the sites, the direction The consultation period will end on 4 March and we set by the new strategy and plans to make IPs more will publish the Government’s response in May 2011. accessible to hard to reach groups. We expect to publish the final implementation framework in the spring.

HEALTH Carers: Older People

Biomedical Research Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will assess the conclusions and Michael Fallon: To ask the Secretary of State for recommendations of the Age UK report, Invisible but Health what funding he has allocated for biomedical Invaluable. [37759] 945W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 946W

Paul Burstow: This Government welcomes the Age Pfizer, (c) Sanofi Aventis, (d) Astra Zeneca and (e) UK report, “Invisible but Invaluable”. We do recognise Novartis have made to his Department in each of the the valuable contribution made by older carers, many of last five years; for what (i) periods and (ii) tasks the whom spend a significant proportion of their life providing secondments were made; whether secondments of staff unpaid support to family members or friends. Local from his Department have been made to those firms; authorities and the national health service have a vital and for what (A) periods and (B) tasks. [38176] role to play in identifying and supporting more carers. In November 2010, the Government published Mr Simon Burns: There have been no secondments “Recognised, valued and supported: next steps for the to, or from, the Department and GlaxoSmithKline, Carers Strategy”. The Strategy is a cross Government Pfizer, Sanofi Aventis, Astra Zeneca or Novartis in any strategy and shows how Government intend to support of the last five years. carers in terms of the outcomes and plans of health, Fertility: Medical Treatments social care, education and other services across Government. Two of the key recommendations were: Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health supporting those with caring responsibilities to identify themselves what recent assessment he has made of the availability as carers at an early stage, recognising the value of their contribution and involving them from the outset both in of fertility treatment on the NHS; how many women designing local care provision and in planning individual care over the age of 40-years-old received infertility packages; and treatment on the NHS in the most recent quarter for enabling those with caring responsibilities to fulfil their educational which figures are available; what assessment he has and personalised support both for carers and those they support, made of the effects of such provision on NHS budgets; enabling them to have a family and community life. and if he will make a statement. [38056] These have been supported by: the Department has provided funding of over £63,000 plus Anne Milton: No recent assessment has been made of VAT for the training of up to 200 general practitioners (GPs) the availability of fertility treatment on the national and practice staff in the current financial year. As a result of health service, and information about the number of this training, GPs and practice staff will be better able to women over the age of 40-years-old who have received identify and support carers; and NHS funded infertility treatment is not held centrally. It an additional £400 million in primary care trust (PCT) baselines is for primary care trusts (PCTs) to make commissioning to support the provision of breaks for carers. The “Operating decisions based on clinical evidence and discussions Framework for the NHS in England 2011-12” indicates that with local general practitioner commissioners, secondary PCTs should pool budgets with local authorities to provide care clinicians and providers, in order to meet their carers’ breaks, as far as possible, via direct payments or personal statutory responsibilities. health budgets. This money is not ring fenced but for 2011-12, PCTs should agree policies, plans and budgets to support The NHS deputy chief executive, David Flory, wrote carers with local authorities and local carers’ organisations, to PCT commissioners on 11 January 2011 to highlight and make them available to local people. that they should have regard to the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence fertility guidelines, Community Health Services: Fuels when considering commissioning services, including the recommendation that up to three cycles of in vitro Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Health fertilisation are offered to eligible couples where the if he will assess the effects of increases in fuel prices on woman is aged between 23 and 39. district nurses and health visitors in the NHS who use The Department also supports Infertility Network their own cars for work; and if he will make a UK, the leading fertility patient organisation, to work statement. [37976] in partnership with PCTs to encourage good practice in the provision of fertility services. This work is ongoing. Mr Simon Burns: Rates of reimbursement for travelling expenses are contained in the national health service General Practitioners terms and conditions handbook. These apply to district nurses and health visitors unless alternative arrangements Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health have been agreed locally. Any changes to national rates what mechanism he plans to put in place to monitor of reimbursement would be agreed by the NHS Staff expenditure on the GP consortia pathfinder Council. programme. [37926] Proposals for a new national system of reimbursing travel expenses were published by the NHS Staff Council Mr Simon Burns: We have no plans to monitor on 14 October 2010. If agreed the proposal provides a expenditure centrally on the general practitioner (GP) system that is simpler, fairer, more transparent and consortia pathfinder programme. better for the environment. The proposal also includes a Primary care trust (PCT) clusters will support the review mechanism which will allow rates to reflect the development of all emerging GP consortia, including changing cost of motoring. pathfinders, through offering support, including a fund These new rates of reimbursement would apply to of £2 per head for support in the development of their journeys made on and after 1 July 2013. Existing rates consortia. This can be used flexibly to fund, for example, will apply until then. clinical backfill, training and organisational development. Clusters will also provide support through a qualified Departmental Secondments or accredited senior finance manager; an organisational development expert/facilitator; an individual with expertise Teresa Pearce: To ask the Secretary of State for of appropriate governance arrangements or corporate Health what secondments (a) GlaxoSmithKline, (b) affairs and a commissioning expert. 947W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 948W

Subject to the legislative process, GP consortia will Health: Private Sector be accountable to the NHS Commissioning Board for managing public funds and for the outcomes they achieve. Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for General Practitioners: Manpower Health (1) if he will assess the likely effects of including private healthcare companies in the commissioning process in the light of international experience; [37780] Paul Maynard: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what recent estimate he has made of the ratio of (2) what mechanisms he plans to put in place to GPs to population in (a) Blackpool North and prevent private healthcare companies participating in Cleveleys constituency, (b) Lancashire and (c) the commissioning process solely for the purpose of profiteering. [37781] England. [37487]

Mr Simon Burns: General practitioner (GP) work Mr Simon Burns: External private organisations are force census data are not available by county or constituency currently widely used by primary care trusts to support area. Blackpool North and Cleveleys constituency is the commissioning process. There is evidence that in contained within and serviced by Blackpool Primary many cases external organisations have succeeded in Care Trust (PCT) and North Lancashire PCT. The ratio improving commissioning processes and can provide of GPs per 100,000 head of population for Blackpool support in key areas such as data analysis and commercial PCT is 70 and for North Lancashire PCT is 63.8. skills. The five PCTs provided cover all the districts of General practitioner consortia will receive a maximum Lancashire so for Lancashire the ratio of GPs per management allowance to reflect the costs associated 100,000 head of population is 61.2 and for England the with commissioning. They will have the freedom to ratio is 69.3. decide what commissioning activities they undertake for themselves, and for what activities they choose to The information is collected by the NHS Information buy in support from external organisations, including Centre and is shown in the following table: local authorities, private and voluntary sector bodies. GPs (excluding retainers and registrars) per head of population in The Department does not intend to monitor how select areas, as at 30 September 2009 consortia spend their management allowance, as consortia GPs (excluding will have the freedom to use their resources in ways that GPs (excluding retainers and retainers and registrars) per achieve the best and most cost-efficient outcomes for registrars) 100,000 population patients. Consortia will, however, need to take account of value for money when contracting with external England 35,917 69.3 organisations.

Lancashire 885 61.2 Hearing: Babies Blackburn with 95 67.9 Darwen PCT Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Blackpool PCT 98 70.0 what mechanism he plans to put in place for the North Lancashire 209 63.8 delivery of quality assurance for the newborn hearing Teaching PCT screening programme by Public Health England; and if Central Lancashire 262 57.2 he will make a statement. [37770] PCT East Lancashire 221 58.0 Anne Milton: The Public Health White Paper, ‘Healthy Teaching PCT Lives, Healthy People: Our strategy for public health in Sources: The NHS Information Centre for health and social care General and England’, makes clear that Public Health England will Personal Medical Services Statistics be responsible for funding and ensuring the provision of Office for National Statistics, 2009 Final Mid-Year Population screening services in the future. Part of its role will be to Estimates (2001 census based), adjusted May 2010 to reflect design and provide quality assurance and monitoring revisions to migration methodology for all screening programmes including the NHS Newborn Health Hearing Screening Programme.

Yvonne Fovargue: To ask the Secretary of State for Hospital Beds Health what steps he plans to take to ensure that there is a sufficient and appropriately qualified multi- Anne Marie Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for disciplinary public health workforce at local authority Health what recent estimate he has made of the cost to level; and if he will take steps to ensure that public the public purse of patients medically fit for discharge health continues to be a highly-regarded career path for who remained in hospital in the latest period for which both medical and non-medical graduates. [38086] figures are available. [36166]

Anne Milton: Working with representative and Paul Burstow: The most recent estimate of the cost of professional organisations the public health work force an excess bed-day in an English hospital in 2009-10 is strategy will be published in autumn 2011. It will set out about £250. how to secure the supply of highly trained and motivated staff, with the skills needed across the range of public Industrial Health and Safety health interventions, including those in local authorities who will provide public health advice and commission Alok Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State for services. Health what progress his Department has made on 949W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 950W reviewing the health and safety regulations for which it Anne Milton: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I is responsible since his appointment. [36972] gave the hon. Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones) on 19 January 2011, Official Report, columns Anne Milton: Lord Young’s review of health and 850-51W. safety laws and the compensation culture, Common Maternal Mortality Sense Common Safety, carried out for the Prime Minister, was published on 15 October 2010. Mr Lammy: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Actions to implement Lord Young’srecommendations what the five most prevalent causes of maternal are being taken forward across Government. The Food mortality were in the last 10 years. [37849] Standards Agency (FSA) is responsible for implementing the recommendation to combine health and safety Anne Milton: The Confidential Enquiry into Maternal inspections and food safety inspections undertaken by and Child Health publishes a report once every three local authorities and the other recommendations relating years; ‘Saving Mothers’ Lives’ (formerly entitled ‘Why to food safety. This work is being taken forward by the Mothers Die’). The most recent, published in December FSA in line with the timetable set out in the report. 2007, covered the years 2003-05. This publication gives numbers of deaths in the United Kingdom reported to Influenza: Newton Abbot the inquiry in the three-year periods considered and divides them into deaths directly and indirectly due to Anne Marie Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for pregnancy and childbirth. Health what assessment his Department has made of The data in the table are from the confidential inquiry the availability of the influenza vaccine in Newton report ‘Saving Mothers Lives’. The figures supplied are Abbot constituency. [36168] for the last 10 years for which data are available.

Cause of death 1994-96 1997-99 2000-02 2003-05

1 Cardiac 39 35 44 48 2 Coincidental 36 29 36 55 3 Thrombosis/thromboembolism 48 35 30 41 4 Psychiatric 9 15 16 18 5 Pre-eclampsia, eclampsia 20 16 14 18 Total 152 130 140 180 Notes: 1. Coincidental causes means deaths linked to pregnancy only by a temporal association in that they occurred during pregnancy or within six weeks of birth. 2. The total number of deaths over the most recent period of 2003-05 represented approximately 0.008% of the total number of maternities (2,114,004). 3. The next Maternal Death Enquiry Review (2006-08) is due to be published in March.

Medical Equipment: Expenditure local population. The size of the ring-fenced grant will be based on relative population health need and weighted Mr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Health for inequalities. We are currently consulting on the (1) what mechanisms there are to ensure the NHS range of activity for which local authorities will take recovers medical aids loaned to patients and others; responsibility and this will be key in determining the [38076] size of the grant. Work is also ongoing to determine baseline spending on public health activities in the (2) what estimate he has made of the expenditure by national health service and this will inform the process the NHS on medical aids in the last 12 months for of determining the size of the local authority public which figures are available. [38106] health grant. Our consultation also seeks views on the approach we should take to public health allocations. Paul Burstow: It is the responsibility of the local national health service to monitor and arrange for the The new health premium will be designed to incentivise recovery of medical aids, where this is safe and cost-effective. action to reduce health inequalities and reward progress in improving the health of the local population, based on Information on the expenditure by the NHS on medical elements of the Public Health Outcomes Framework. aids is not held centrally as it is Government policy to reduce burden on local councils and primary care trusts We will develop the formula for the health premium who would be the bodies responsible for collecting these in an open and transparent way and are consulting on data. both the Public Health Outcomes Framework and the approach we should take to the premium itself in order to get the detail right, ensuring that it is fair, rewards NHS: Finance areas for their achievements, and incentivises reductions in health inequalities. We intend to establish a stakeholder Yvonne Fovargue: To ask the Secretary of State for group to assist in this process. Health what the (a) criteria to be applied and (b) evidential basis is for the proposed (i) health ringfence Pain and (ii) health premium. [38085] Dame Anne Begg: To ask the Secretary of State for Anne Milton: From April 2013, upper tier and unitary Health if he will bring forward proposals to provide local authorities will receive a new ring-fenced public training on chronic pain for (a) general practitioners health grant, in order to improve the health of their and (b) nurses. [38059] 951W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 952W

Anne Milton: The content and standard of health Estimate of GSL and P medicines exempt from prescription charges at the point of dispensing and dispensed by pharmacies in England from care training is the responsibility of the independent 1,2 regulatory bodies. Their role is that of custodian of 2007-08 to 2009-10 quality standards in education and practice. £000 Prescription Net ingredient Processing The General Medical Council and the Nursing and Financial year items3 cost cost4 Midwifery Council (NMC), are the respective independent bodies with regulatory responsibility for general practitioner 2007-08 136,094 531,585 3,160 (GP) and nurse education standards. 2008-09 145,450 517,739 3,069 Both bodies have established curricular that incorporates 2009-10 155,649 551,410 2,922 mandatory learning outcomes for the deterrence and 1 Data have been supplied for medicines which have a General Sales List (GSL) or Pharmacy only medicine (P) marketing authorisation treatment of chronic pain. only. Unlicensed medicines and devices have been excluded. The Royal College of General Practitioners has chosen 2 Data include some Prescription Only Medicines (POM) which also chronic pain as a clinical priority area during 2011-13. have a GSL/P marketing authorisation for different pack sizes. This is A clinical champion will be appointed to lead this area because dispensing contractors are not always required to inform NHS RxS of the pack size they have used to meet the prescription of work from April 2011. Their work will address the order, therefore some items recorded against a POM pack size may training needs of front-line GPs and improve community- have been supplied using smaller GSL or P packs. based provision of pain management. 3 Prescription items are the number of times a P or GSL medicine appears on a dispensed prescription form which was exempt at the The NMC has recently revised their standards for point of dispensing. This includes items which have been supplied to nurse pre-registration education. The new standards patients who hold a pre-payment certificate. contain essential skills clusters that are incorporated 4 Processing costs include all the related NHS RxS administrative into all nurse education programmes. The skills associated expenditure including staff, information technology maintenance and with these clusters are implicit throughout the required overheads directly related to processing prescriptions. This does not include NHS RxS capital expenditure and depreciation or any other standards and include training and knowledge on NHS costs associated with the prescribing or dispensing of the prevention and treatment of chronic pain. medicine to the patient. Source: NHS Prescription Services (NHS RxS) Information Systems, NHS Prescription Drugs RxS Common Drug Reference Database and NHS Business Services Authority Costing Model

Jim Dobbin: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Preventive Medicine what is the cost per quality adjusted life year for each drug with patient numbers of less than 500 approved Yvonne Fovargue: To ask the Secretary of State for by the National Institute for Health and Clinical Health whether he plans to take steps to maintain a Excellence in the last five years. [37974] focus on preventative healthcare in his proposals for reform of the NHS. [38084] Mr Simon Burns: The information requested is not held by the Department. I have asked the chief executive Anne Milton: The White Paper ‘Healthy Lives, Healthy of the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence People: Our strategy for public health in England’, sets to write to the hon. Member with this information. A out the Government’s vision for public health. Subject copy will be placed in the Library. to Parliament, the Government will create a new public health service—Public Health England—with a renewed focus on health prevention, health protection and Prescriptions improvement. The Government have reinforced their commitment Duncan Hames: To ask the Secretary of State for to tackling the preventable causes of ill-health by Health how many prescriptions were issued for announcing their intention to give local authorities medicines which are available over-the-counter in ring-fenced public health budgets to improve the health pharmacies in each of the last three years; how many of their local population. A new health premium will such prescriptions were provided free of charge; and reward progress on specific public health outcomes. what the cost to the NHS was of (a) the drugs We are currently consulting on the detail of these provided and (b) their processing. [37677] proposals.

Mr Simon Burns: Estimates of over-the-counter Speech Therapy: Worcestershire medicines are available only for those medicines classified as General Sales List (‘GS’ medicines) or Pharmacy Mr Robin Walker: To ask the Secretary of State for only medicines (‘P’ medicines). The total number of Health what information his Department holds on items for these medicines is not available except at levels of provision for speech and language therapy in disproportionate cost. However, information on the Worcestershire; and if he will assess the adequacy of number of General Sales List and Pharmacy only such provision in comparison with national levels. prescription items that were dispensed free at the point [37485] of dispensing (including items dispensed to patients holding a pre-payment certificate) are available. Paul Burstow: The most recent data for 2009-10 are These figures, together with the net ingredient cost, recorded in the following table and provide a count and and the cost to the national health service of processing percentage of all appointments for speech and language the prescriptions, for the three most recent years available, therapy and total out-patient appointments for are shown in the following table. Worcestershire Primary Care Trust (PCT) and England. 953W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 954W

The provision of services such as speech and language Apprentices: Engineering therapy is a matter for local national health service and authority decision after assessment of local area John Stevenson: To ask the Secretary of State for needs. Business, Innovation and Skills how many young people took up an engineering apprenticeship in (a) Britain, Percentage of (b) Cumbria and (c) Carlisle in 2009-10. [35992] all Number of appointments Total out- speech and which are Mr Hayes: The following table shows the number of patient language speech/ apprenticeship starts by young people (aged under 19) appointments appointments language on the engineering framework in England, Cumbria England 84,198,458 49,652 0.059 local authority and Carlisle parliamentary constituency in the 2009/10 academic year. Worcestershire 984,026 284 0.029 PCT Apprenticeship programme starts by young people (aged under 19) on Source: the engineering framework in England, Cumbria local authority and Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), The NHS Information Centre for Carlisle constituency, 2009/10 health and social care. Geography Apprenticeship starts

Carlisle parliamentary constituency 20 Cumbria local authority 300 BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS England 7,800 Notes: 1. England and local authority figures are rounded to the nearest Apprentices hundred. Parliamentary constituency figures are rounded to the nearest 10. Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for 2. Age is based on age at the start of the programme. 3. Geographic information is based upon the home postcode of the Business, Innovation and Skills how much funding his learner. The England total figure includes those learners studying in Department allocated to apprenticeships for young England where the postcode is not known or outside of England. people in each of the last three years. [37554] Source: Individualised Learner Record Mr Hayes: The following table contains apprenticeship Information on the number of apprenticeship starts expenditure figures for 16 to 18-year-olds for the last is published in a quarterly statistical first release (SFR). three years: The latest SFR was published on 27 January 2011 16 to 18 apprenticeships http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/ statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_current Expenditure (£ million) 2007-08 604 Burton’s Foods: Moreton 2008-09 630 2009-10 688 Ms Angela Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills whether he has assessed The 16 to 18 apprenticeships budget for the 2010-11 the merits of offering support for the continued operation financial year is currently £780 million and funding for of Burton’s Foods Factory in Moreton. [37621] 16 to 18 apprenticeships will increase again to £799 million in 2011-12. This will provide funding for more than Mr Prisk: No application for public funding to support 133,000 starts for 16 to 18-year-olds. the continued operation of the Moreton factory has been submitted by Burton’s Foods. If received, any Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for such application would be assessed in line with the Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has Department’s standard procedures. made of the number of apprenticeships which will be created in the next 12 months (a) in Liverpool Ms Angela Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Wavertree constituency and (b) England. [38063] Business, Innovation and Skills what grants were paid to Burton’s Foods Factory in Moreton in 2009-10. Mr Hayes: The apprenticeships programme is demand- [37694] led, so the Government do not set specific targets for apprenticeships by constituency. The Skills Funding Mr Prisk: No publicly-funded grants were paid to the Agency (SFA) operates a national system to fund post Burton’s Foods factory at Moreton during the period in 19 further education and training. Funding allocations question. to colleges and providers reflect the pattern of employer demand and funding is moved in year to reflect local Ms Angela Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for need. The National Apprenticeship Service work with Business, Innovation and Skills if he will match any local providers and employers in Liverpool Wavertree grant offered to Burton’s Foods Factory in Moreton to make apprenticeship places available where there is by the Scottish Government and Welsh Assembly demand. Government in order to secure jobs in England. [37695] We are committed to have funding in place to train over 350,000 apprentices in England in the 2010/11 Mr Prisk: Any application for grant funding for academic year. For the 2011/12 academic year, our Burton’s Foods’ operations in England will be considered indicative forecast is for over 360,000 apprenticeship on its merits. According to information provided by the places. Welsh and Scottish devolved Administrations, no grants 955W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 956W have been offered to support the investments in Burton’s Consumers: Advisory Services facilities at Edinburgh and Llantarnam announced at the same time as the company’s decision to close the Moreton plant. Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps his Department has taken to provide consumer advice in deprived communities. Consumer Credit: Licensing [37503]

Lorely Burt: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Davey: This Department is leading work aimed at Business, Innovation and Skills how many consumer making the provision of information, advice and education credit licences under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 to consumers simpler and more effective. The organisations were (a) issued or renewed and (b) revoked for failure at the focus of this work are Citizens Advice and to comply with debt management guidance by the Citizens Advice Scotland. These are the umbrella Office of Fair Trading in each year since 2005. [37571] organisations for the citizens advice bureaux that have a unique track record in providing advice to citizens, Mr Davey: Between 2005 and 2010 The Office of Fair often those who are vulnerable or come from deprived Trading (OFT) issued or renewed a total of 102,691 communities. This includes consumer advice. In 2009/10 consumer credit licences. This breaks down as follows: Citizens Advice helped 2.1 million people with over 23,503 licences were issued in 2005-06; seven million problems at 3,500 locations in England 21,777 in 2006-07; and Wales. 21,356 in 2007-08; This Department is also involved with Consumer 20,474 in 2008-09; and Direct (CD) which is an online and telephone advice 15,581 in 2009-10. service funded and managed by the Office of Fair In 2007-08, the OFT issued 2,551 licences with the debt Trading. It handles approximately 1.7 million telephone counselling and/or debt adjusting categories required calls and emails annually often helping those who are by businesses wishing to operate in the debt management vulnerable or come from deprived communities. sector. This figure increased to 3,780 for the period Although at the national level CD does not specifically 2009-10. Please note that only a small percentage of target communities, individual CD centres work with a traders granted consumer credit licences actually engage range of community groups to give targeted advice and in debt management activities. information. 40% of the contacts handled by CD are Between 2005 and 2010 the OFT issued a total of 44 from people whose annual household income is less minded to refuse or revoke or minded to refuse a than £20,000. variation application or minded to compulsorily vary This Department is also discussing with the consumer notices to debt management companies. Out of 44 organisation Which? about making wider use of its notices, non-compliances with the debt management online information and thereby reducing the costs to guidance were cited in 40 cases. Of these 40 cases, the the taxpayer of providing such information. licences of 14 traders were successfully revoked or their applications were refused but three of these decisions are subject to appeal to the first tier consumer Credit Departmental Libraries Appeals Tribunal. This figure (14) breaks down as follows: Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, one licence was revoked in 2007-08; Innovation and Skills how many (a) certified and (b) one licence application was refused in 2008-09; chartered librarians his Department and its predecessors 10 licences were refused or revoked in 2009-10; and have employed in each year since 2000. [37653] two licence applications, including a variation application, were refused in 2010-11. Mr Davey: The Department for Business, Innovation Of the remaining 27 cases, a further three licences and Skills employs staff with qualifications recognised were surrendered and four applications were withdrawn by the Chartered Institute of Library and Information following issue of the OFT’s notices. Adjudicators, Professionals (CILIP) and will reimburse these staff for acting on behalf of the OFT, also made determinations their subscriptions to CILIP. No records are kept as to favourable to 10 businesses which permitted them to whether these staff are chartered members. continue to trade, subject to requirements or undertakings The following table shows the number of BIS staff being imposed on their licences. Decisions on the licence with CILIP recognised qualifications. status of ten remaining cases have yet to be determined. Since April 2008 when reforms to the Consumer Number of people with CILIP Credit Act 1974 came into effect the OFT has issued recognised qualifications 185 warning letters and 951 advisory letters to traders. 2005 81 The OFT announced on 28 January 2011 action 2006 78 taken as a follow up to a review of compliance in the 2007 66 debt management sector. This action involves 129 businesses 2008 63 and has already resulted in 35 licences being surrendered 2009 63 and formal action to revoke licences being taken against 2010 64 another eight licence holders. The OFT is considering 2011 43 further action against a number of other businesses. 957W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 958W

Departmental Regulation Mr Prisk: Neither my the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills nor I have had any Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for meetings on the issue of bomb detectors this year. Business, Innovation and Skills what regulations his Bob Stewart: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Department has removed since 6 May 2010. [37403] Innovation and Skills what discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for the Home Department on Mr Prisk: Since May 2010 the Department has launched ensuring the export ban of ADE-651 bomb detectors a review of employment law and is conducting a and similar devices to Afghanistan and Iraq is enforced. fundamental review scrutinising the overall stock of [37885] BIS regulation, alongside legacy measures inherited from the previous Administration. These have yet to Mr Prisk: No such discussions have taken place with conclude and so to date no significant regulations have the Secretary of State for the Home Department. HM been revoked. Revenue and Customs (HMRC) are the responsible enforcement authority for strategic export controls. HMRC Departmental Responsibilities works with the UK Border Agency to enforce prohibitions on the exportation of military equipment. Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer Bob Stewart: To ask the Secretary of State for of 2 December 2010, Official Report, columns 1005- Business, Innovation and Skills if he will work with his 06W, on the Scottish Government First Minister, in EU counterparts towards implementing an EU-wide what capacity Tavish Scott MSP attended the meeting; ban on the export of ADE-651 bomb detectors and and whether any other Members of the Scottish similar devices. [37886] Parliament were invited to attend. [37906] Mr Prisk: Yes. Mr Davey: Tavish Scott MSP attended the meeting in Exports: Military Aircraft his capacity as leader of the Scottish Liberal Democrats. No other Members of the Scottish Parliament were invited to attend. Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills when the most recent export licences were granted for components for (a) Environment Protection F-15 aircraft, (b) F-16 aircraft and (c) Apache helicopters (i) directly to Israel and (ii) to the US for Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for incorporation with the final customer being Israel. Business, Innovation and Skills what discussions he has [37565] had with the Department for Energy and Climate Change on the green economy roadmap. [38023] Mr Prisk: The most recent licences the Government have issued, with dates, are as follows: Mr Prisk: The Green Economy Roadmap is a joint Components for F-16 aircraft exported to the US for incorporation, initiative between three Departments, BIS, DECC and with the ultimate end user being Israel—January 2006 (components DEFRA, to provide clarity to business on the green for military aircraft head-down displays and military aircraft economy, the Government’s policy intentions and the head-down display equipment); implications for business over the next 10 years. I have Components for Apache helicopters exported to the US for discussed plans for the roadmap with my ministerial incorporation, with the ultimate end user being Israel—January 2006 (components for combat helicopters). counterparts in both DECC and DEFRA and we intend to publish this coming April. Our records for the last 10 years show no components have been supplied direct to Israel for Apache helicopters, F-15, or F-16 aircraft and no components have been Exports supplied to the US for incorporation for F-15 aircraft, with the final customer being Israel. Bob Stewart: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills if he will bring forward proposals Further Education: VAT to extend the ban on exports of ADE-651 bomb detectors and similar devices beyond Afghanistan and Iraq. Damian Hinds: To ask the Secretary of State for [37883] Business, Innovation and Skills what requirements arising from EU regulations govern the exemption from value Mr Prisk: The Government currently have no plans added tax or zero-rating of buildings for sixth form and to bring forward controls on the export of ADE-651 further education colleges in respect of (a) entirely bomb detectors and similar devices beyond Afghanistan new-build colleges, (b) extensions or new buildings for and Iraq. existing colleges and (c) adjustments, conversions and maintenance work within existing colleges. [37512] Bob Stewart: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Mr Gauke: I have been asked to reply. Innovation and Skills what recent representations he has received on the sale of ADE-651 bomb detectors No VAT exemptions apply to the construction of and similar devices sourced from abroad to (a) Afghanistan buildings. and (b) Iraq by UK-based companies since January EU law allows the UK to continue to apply zero rates 2010. [37884] that were in force on 1 January 1991. 959W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 960W

In the construction field, zero rates are applied by the (2) if he will review the funding arrangement for UK to the construction of new dwellings, communal the National Union of Students for the purposes residential buildings, and buildings to be used by charities of establishing voluntary membership funding for specific purposes, namely as village halls or for arrangements. [37121] non-business activities. Works of alteration, which may include extensions, adjustments and conversions, are Mr Willetts: I do not believe there is a need to change zero-rated when they are carried out to listed buildings the existing funding and membership arrangements. which are dwellings, communal residential buildings Individual students’ unions are not automatically members and charity buildings. of the National Union of Students (NUS). Their choice, Works of repair and maintenance are outside the scope whether to affiliate or not, will be based on consultation of these zero rates and have always been liable to VAT. with their local student members. If they decide to Sixth form colleges and further education colleges affiliate, they pay an annual subscription to the NUS may qualify for the zero rate if they are charities and and their local members automatically become NUS use their buildings solely for non-business purposes. members. Students have the right, under Part II of the Education Higher Education: North West Act 1994, to opt-out of membership of their local students’ union, and by effect also from the NUS. Paul Maynard: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how many people normally Office of Fair Trading: Complaints resident in Blackpool North and Cleveleys constituency applied to attend university to start in the academic Lorely Burt: To ask the Secretary of State for year (a) 2009-10, (b) 2010-11 and (c) 2011-12. [37305] Business, Innovation and Skills how many complaints relating to the practice of debt management companies Mr Willetts: The information requested is in the the Office of Fair Trading has received in each year following table: since 2005; and how many such complaints resulted in Applicants to full-time undergraduate courses via UCAS from the revocation of a company’s licence. [37569] Blackpool North and Cleveleys constituency for entry in academic year 2009/10 and 2010/11 Mr Davey: During the period 2005-11 the Office of Parliamentary constituency 2009/10 2010/11 Fair Trading’s (OFT) Enquiries and Reporting Centre received a total of 985 complaints about debt management Blackpool North and 808 865 companies. Cleveleys This complaint total is broken down as follows: Note: Blackpool North and Cleveleys constituency has been identified 82 complaints were received in 2005 using the home postcode regardless of declared area of permanent 109 complaints were received in 2006 and in 2007 residence. Source: 107 complaints were received in 2008; Universities and Colleges Admissions Service (UCAS) 301 complaints were received in 2009; At 24 January 2011, 678 people from Blackpool 350 were received in 2010; and, finally North and Cleveleys constituency had applied for entry 19 complaints have been received by the OFT during the in academic year 2011/12. Final UCAS data for 2011/12 period 2010-11. will be available in January 2012. Out of 44 minded to refuse or revoke of minded to Local Enterprise Partnerships refuse a variation application or minded to compulsorily vary notices that the OFT issued to debt management companies during the period 2005-11, consumer and Henry Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, other stakeholder complaint evidence was cited in 22 notices. Innovation and Skills if he will assess the merits of providing a small budget to local economic partnerships for the purpose of establishing a secretariat which would Older Workers: Cumbria not be under the control of a single organisation. [37784] Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills if he will estimate the Mr Prisk: As set out in the Local Growth White Paper number of workers aged 65 years in (a) Cumbria and local enterprise partnerships will be expected to fund (b) Westmorland and Lonsdale constituency who are their own day-to-day running costs. To support local likely to remain in the work force for an additional year enterprise partnerships in their development we have following the end of the default retirement age. [37985] recently announced a capacity fund to help them understand the real issues facing local businesses in their localities. Mr Davey: Our impact assessment estimates that More detail on this fund will follow shortly. around 6,000 additional workers are likely to remain in the work force across the UK in the first year. We do National Union of Students: Membership not have data from which to produce robust estimates on the proportion likely to remain in the work force at Christopher Pincher: To ask the Secretary of State for the sub-regional level. The full impact assessment was Business, Innovation and Skills (1) if he will bring published on 13 January and is available at: forward proposals to reform the membership of rules http://bis.gov.uk/assets/biscore/employment-matters/docs/p/ for student unions and the National Union of Students 11-634-phasing-out-default-retirement-age-impact- so that membership is by voluntary opt-in; [37120] assessment.pdf 961W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 962W

Overseas Students: Bangladesh EDUCATION

Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Children in Care Innovation and Skills (1) how many postgraduate students from Bangladesh were enrolled at a university John Hemming: To ask the Secretary of State for in the UK in each of the last five years; [37583] Education what proportion of children under the age (2) how many students from Bangladesh were of five left care, where care is defined as subject to a enrolled on an undergraduate course in the UK in each care order, police protection order, emergency of the last five years. [37584] protection order, or placement for adoption, and were adopted in each year from 1995 to 2010. [28908] Mr Willetts: The number of Bangladesh-domiciled postgraduate and undergraduate enrolments at UK higher Tim Loughton: The percentage of children, under the education institutions are shown in the table, for the age of five, subject to a care order, police protection academic years 2005/06 to 2009/10. Figures for the order or emergency protection order or placed for adoption 2010/11 academic year will become available from January who left care through adoption each year ending 31 2012. March 1995 to 2010 is shown in the following table. Bangladesh-domiciled postgraduate and undergraduate enrolments1. Percentage of children under the age of five subject to a care order, UK higher education institutions2. Academic years 2005/06 to 2009/10 police protection order, emergency protection order or who were placed Academic year Postgraduate Undergraduate Total for adoption who were adopted1, 2, 3, 4. Years ending 31 March 1995 to 2010. Coverage: England 2005/06 965 1,135 2,100 Children adopted (percentage) 2006/07 1,210 1,325 2,535 19955 39 2007/08 1,445 1,370 2,815 19965 39 2008/09 1,810 1,675 3,485 19975 41 2009/10 2,360 1,810 4,170 19986 48 1 Covers enrolments of all ages to full-time and part-time courses. 2 Excludes the Open University. 19996 47 Notes: 20006 54 1. Figures are based on a HESA standard registration population. 20016 58 2. Figures in the table have been rounded up or down to the nearest 20026 59 five, so components may not sum to totals. Source: 20036 61 Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) Student Record 20045 55 20055 56 Overseas Students: Yemen 20065 55 20075 51 Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, 20085 50 Innovation and Skills (1) how many students from 20095 51 Yemen were enrolled on a postgraduate course in the 20105 50 UK in each of the last five years; [37586] 1 Percentages have been rounded to the nearest whole number. 2 Only the last occasion on which a child ceased to be looked after in (2) how many students from Yemen were enrolled on the year has been counted. undergraduate courses in the UK in each of the last 3 Figures exclude children looked after under an agreed series of five years. [37588] short-term placements. 4 Historical data may differ from older publications. This is mainly due to the implementation of amendments and corrections sent by Mr Willetts: The latest available figures from the some local authorities after the publication date of previous materials. Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) are shown 5 Figures are taken from the SSDA903 return which covered all in the table. Figures for the 2010/11 academic year will children looked after. 6 be available in January 2012. Figures are derived from the SSDA903 one third sample survey. Source: Yemen domiciled enrolments1 by level of study UK higher education SSDA903 institutions2. Academic years 2005/06 to 2009/10 Academic Curriculum year Postgraduate Undergraduate Total 2005/06 60 95 155 Mr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for 2006/07 90 100 190 Education whether (a) academies and (b) free schools 2007/08 65 100 165 will be subject to national curriculum changes made by 2008/09 75 65 140 his Department. [32765] 2009/10 65 70 135 1 Covers both full-time and part-time enrolments of all ages. Mr Gibb: Academies and free schools are not required 2 No Yemen domiciled enrolments were recorded as studying at the to follow the National Curriculum. However, they are Open University in these years. As OU courses are delivered by distance learning, overseas students are likely to stay in their own required to teach a broad and balanced curriculum. country to study. The new National Curriculum will continue to be a Note: statutory requirement for maintained schools and will Figures are based on a HESA standard registration population and have been rounded to the nearest five. also retain its importance as a national benchmark of Source: excellence for all schools, including academies and free Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA). schools. 963W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 964W

Departmental Manpower (b) remunerated with expenses only and (c) paid a salary. [17212] Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many staff in each age group his Department Tim Loughton: The Department engaged 10 interns employed at each (a) grade and (b) location in (i) 1980, over the last 12 months, supporting the Cabinet Office (ii) 1983, (iii) 1987, (iv) 1992, (v) 1997, (vi) 2001 and six week Summer Diversity Internship Programme. (vii) each year since 2005. [17412] All interns participating were London-based and received £350 a week as directed by the Cabinet Office. Tim Loughton: The Department for Education was Free School Meals established on 12 May 2010. Information for predecessor Departments on how many staff were employed in the years stated broken down by grade and age, is available Ms Angela Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for in the Civil Service Statistics published on the Cabinet Education how many children in (a) Wallasey Office’s website at: constituency, (b) the Wirral borough council area, (c) www.civilservice.gov.uk/about/resources/stats-archive/ the North West and (d) England are in receipt of free archived-reports.aspx school meals. [33871] Departmental Work Experience Mr Gibb: Information on free school meal eligibility is shown in the table set out as follows. Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for The answer includes full time pupils aged 0 to 15 and Education how many interns his Department has engaged part time pupils aged 5 to 15 known to be eligible for in the last 12 months; and how many were (a) unpaid, and claiming free school meals.

Maintained nursery, primary1, state funded secondary1, 2 and special schools3: School meal arrangements4, 5 January 2010 Maintained nursery and primary1 State-funded secondary2 Special3 Number of Number of Number of pupils pupils pupils known to Percentage known to Percentage known to Percentage be eligible known to be be eligible known to be be eligible known to be for and eligible for for and eligible for for and eligible for claiming and claiming claiming and claiming claiming and claiming Number on free school free school Number on free school free school Number on free school free school roll4, 5 meals4, 5 meals roll4, 5 meals4, 5 meals roll4, 5 meals4, 5 meals

England 3,838,680 711,410 15.5 2,864,350 441,140 15.4 78,330 27,330 34.9 North West 540,660 115,850 21.4 395,590 72,780 18.4 11,200 4,550 40.6 Wirral 23,640 6,510 27.5 19,110 4,730 24.8 880 410 46.4 Wallasey 6,330 2,080 32.9 5,010 1,710 34.1 380 180 47.1 1 Includes middle schools as deemed. 2 Includes city technology colleges and academies. 3 Includes maintained and non-maintained special schools, excludes general hospital schools. 4 Includes sole and dual (main) registrations. 5 Includes pupils who have full time attendance and are aged 15 or under, or pupils who have part time attendance and are aged between 5 and 15. Note: Pupil numbers have been rounded to the nearest 10 Source: School Census

Bob Stewart: To ask the Secretary of State for the Department for Work and Pensions, the Home Education what recent representations he has received Office and Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs in on eligible families not taking up free school meals due order to find out if a family qualifies for free school to a perceived social stigma. [36007] meals. It represents a significant achievement in reducing bureaucracy and cost for local authorities and encouraging Mr Gibb: We receive occasional correspondence on more parents to sign up their children for a free school stigma in relation to claiming free school meals. It is an lunch. issue that we take very seriously—there are clear financial Bullying or victimisation of pupils claiming free school and nutritional benefits for pupils from poorer families meals is totally unacceptable. This is why we are now taking a free school lunch. strengthening head teachers’ authority to enforce discipline Cashless catering or ‘swipe card’arrangements, integrated and ensure good behaviour both in and out of school. dining/queuing and pricing meals so that the cost of a meal is the same for those on free lunches as it is for others, are some of the helpful ways schools can minimise Free School Meals: Sunderland the easy identification and stigmatisation of pupils on free meals. Many schools have chosen to invest their Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for targeted kitchen capital funding in cashless systems for Education how many people received free school meals this reason. in Sunderland in the most recent year for which figures The Department has worked closely with other are available. [36409] Government Departments to develop a Free School Meals Eligibility Checking System, known as “the ECS”. Mr Gibb: Information on free school meal eligibility The ECS enables local authorities to check data from is shown in the table. 965W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 966W

The answer includes full time pupils aged 0 to 15 and http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000925/ part time pupils aged five to 15 known to be eligible for index.shtml and claiming free school meals. This information has been published in Tables 11a, b and c of the Schools, Pupils and their Characteristics: January 2010 Statistical First Release at:

Maintained nursery, primary1, state funded secondary1,2 and special schools3: school meal arrangements4,5—January 2010 Maintained nursery and primary1 State-funded secondary 1,2 Special3 No. of No. of No. of pupils pupils pupils known to be % known to known to be % known to known to be % known to eligible for be eligible eligible for be eligible eligible for be eligible and for and and for and and for and claiming claiming claiming claiming claiming claiming free school free school free school free school No. on free school free school No. on roll4,5 meals4,5 meals No. on roll4,5 meals4,5 meals roll4,5 meals4,5 meals

Sunderland 19,822 4,852 24.5 16,478 3,234 19.6 444 170 38.3 1 Includes middle schools as deemed. 2 Includes city technology colleges and academies. 3 Includes maintained and non-maintained special schools, excludes general hospital schools. 4 Includes sole and dual (main) registrations. 5 Includes pupils who have full time attendance and are aged 0 to 15, or pupils who have part time attendance and are aged 5 to 15. Source: School Census

Free Schools Personal, Social, Health and Economic Education

Dr Creasy: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what assessment his Department has made Education pursuant to his written ministerial statement of the cost to the public purse of introducing the first of 20 January 2011, Official Report, columns 47-48WS, free schools by September 2011. [35051] when he plans to conduct his separate internal review of personal, social, health and economic education; who he plans to consult during the review; if he will Mr Gibb [holding answer 24 January 2011]: Free make it his policy to ensure (a) selection and (b) Schools will receive revenue funding at a rate that is publication of comments submitted to him; and if he equivalent to maintained schools and academies. Capital will make a statement. [36707] funding of up to £50 million has been set aside in 2010-11 to meet the needs of Free Schools. Beyond that, Mr Gibb: Decisions relating to the process and time the provision for Free Schools forms part of the overall scale for the internal PSHE review have not yet been spending review settlement for schools. taken. The Department for Education is currently considering options and further information will be available in due course. Home Education Pupils: Absenteeism Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what estimate he has made of the number of Lyn Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Education children who are home-schooled in Dartford what account his Department takes of appeals made constituency. [33280] direct to it by parents in respect of unauthorised absences of pupils from school. [33173] Mr Gibb: The Department does not collect information about the number of home-schooled children and has Mr Gibb: The Department receives a number of not made a recent estimate of the number of home-schooled complaints from parents on a variety of school attendance children in Dartford constituency. related matters. These are usually considered under section 496/7 of the Education Act 1996. The decision whether or not to authorise individual pupil absences New Enterprise Allowance rests with the person who has responsibility for the school register (normally the head teacher) and the governing body of the school which has overall Mr MacShane: To ask the Secretary of State for responsibility for the register. Where a governing body Education pursuant to the answer from the Minister of has followed the relevant attendance regulations it is State, Department for Work and Pensions, of 10 January unlikely that there will be grounds for the Secretary of 2011, Official Report, column 8, on the enterprise allowance, State to intervene. if he will continue his Department’s support for the The Secretary of State has power to intervene under Education Business Partnership Scheme in South Yorkshire. section 496/7 of the Education Act 1996 if he considers [35319] that the governing body of a maintained school or a local authority has acted unreasonably in the exercise of Mr Gibb: I refer the right hon. Member to the reply I their powers or duties (section 496) or that they have gave him on 25 January 2011, Official Report, column 161W. failed to carry out a duty (section 497). Every matter 967W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 968W that is referred to the Secretary of State under section Pupils: Coventry 496 /497 will be considered on the individual merits of the case. Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Where attendance becomes problematic schools should for Education what estimate he has made of the number address the matter informally with parents in the first of students in Coventry who will qualify for the pupil instance. They may also want to back this up with premium; and how many students in Coventry have voluntary parenting contracts that provide support to received education maintenance allowance payments in parents to enable them to manage their child’s school each of the last five years. [35238] attendance. Where parents are unwilling or refuse to co-operate Mr Gibb [holding answer 25 January 2011]: The then decisions will have to be taken at a local level in pupil premium for 2011-12 will be allocated to local relation to more rigorous sanctions—such as sanctions authorities and schools with pupils that are known to under the school attendance order framework, including be eligible for free school meals (FSM) as recorded on school attendance orders, prosecutions, penalty notices, the January 2011 school census, PRU and AP census. parenting orders. Ultimately these decisions are made Each pupil known to be eligible for free school meals by local authorities and by the courts. We do expect will attract £430 of funding which will go to the school prosecutions to be used as a last resort where other or academy via the local authority or Young People’s strategies to address poor attendance have failed. Learning Agency if the pupil is in a mainstream setting or will be managed by the responsible local authority if Local authorities receive information on pupil attendance the pupil is in a non-mainstream setting. from the schools in their area. They are under a duty to use the school attendance order statutory framework Local authorities will also attract the pupil premium where they identify that a child may not be receiving for looked-after children which will be allocated to local suitable education because of a failure to attend school authorities for pupils who at some point in the year to regularly, Parents can be prosecuted for failure to comply 31 March 2010 were looked after continuously for at with a school attendance order. There is provision within least six months, and who were aged four to 15 on the school attendance order framework for parents to 31 August 2009 as recorded on the April 2010 local complain to the Secretary of State if they feel that the authority return. In 2011-12, each pupil will attract local authority has acted unreasonably in continuing to £430 of funding which will go to the responsible local enforce a school attendance order. The Secretary of authority who will pass it to maintained schools for State can in these circumstances make whatever direction pupils who have been in care for six months or more in he thinks fit. Again, each case would be considered on the year to 31 March 2011. its merits. The January 2010 school censuses allow an estimate of the number of pupils known to be eligible for FSM Lyn Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for to be made. In Coventry in January 2010 there were Education what recent analysis has been undertaken of 10,395 pupils known to be eligible, which would give geographical variations in levels of unauthorised rise to a pupil premium of £4,469,850. However, these absences from (a) primary and (b) secondary schools. are estimates only and are not necessarily indicative of [33176] how the pupil premium will be distributed. The number of eligible pupils in 2011 could be higher or lower. Mr Gibb: The most recent analysis on unauthorised The question of how many young people in Coventry absence has been published as part of the Statistical received EMA is a matter for the YoungPeople’s Learning First Release (SFR) “Pupil Absence in Schools in England: Agency who operate the education maintenance allowance Autumn Term 2009 and Spring Term 2010”. This is for the Department for Education. Peter Lauener the available on our Research and Statistics Gateway website YPLA’s chief executive, has written to the hon. Member at for Coventry South with the information requested and a copy of his reply has been placed in the House http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000962/ Libraries. index.shtml Pupil premium note: This contains Government office region and local authority level analyses (in tables 6 and 7). The above estimates include FSM-eligible pupils, in reception to year 11, or the appropriate age-range if not following the national Data for the academic year 2008/09 is available in the curriculum, as at the January 2010 school census, pupil referral SFR “Pupil Absence in Schools in England, Including unit census and the alternative provision census (i.e. those pupils Pupil Characteristics: 2008/09”, which can be found at funded through the Dedicated Schools Grant via local authorities but educated in non-maintained special schools, further education http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000918/ establishments, etc.) and those eligible for the looked-after child index.shtml pupil premium. Pupil numbers are rounded to the nearest five. This contains Government office region and local authority Letter from Peter Lauener, dated 25 January 2011 level analyses (in tables 7.1 and 7.2) as well as tables I am writing in response to your Parliamentary Question relating pupil absence to school location and pupil PQ35238. residence by local authority district (tables 8.1 to 8.8). The Department of Education has responded to you regarding Additionally, we publish pupil residence absence data the first part of your question. I have been asked to provide a for various geographic area types on the Neighbourhood reply to the latter part of your question regarding how many Statistics website at students in Coventry have received Education Maintenance Allowance (EMA). http://www.neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk/dissemination/ EMA take-up is defined as young people who have received These data are available for 2006/07, 2007/08 and 2008/09. one or more EMA payments in the academic year. 969W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 970W

EMA take-up for Coventry is: Number of pupils of compulsory school age and above enrolled in primary schools1 where first language is known or believed to be other 2 Academic year Take-up than English , Keighley parliamentary constituency—January 2006 to 2010 2006/07 3,778 Number of pupils Percentage of pupils3 2007/08 3,966 2006 1,555 23.4 2008/09 3,995 2007 1,627 24.7 2009/10 4,659 2008 1,717 26.4 2010/11 as at 31 December 2010 4,378 2009 1,657 25.2 Pupils: English Language 2010 1,888 28.7 1 Includes middle schools as deemed. 2 Pupils of compulsory school age and above (at 31 August prior to Kris Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for the year shown) were classified by first language. Excludes dual Education how many pupils who enrolled in primary registrations. schools in Keighley constituency in each of the last five 3 The number of pupils by their first language expressed as a percentage years did not speak English as a first language. [34143] of the number of pupils of compulsory school age and above. Source: School Census Mr Gibb: Information on first language is only collected for those pupils aged five and above. Pupils who are Chris Skidmore: To ask the Secretary of State for under five as at 31 August (at the start of the school Education how many and what proportion of primary year) are not required to provide such information. schools had more than 50 per cent. of pupils with The available information on the number of primary English as an additional language in each year since school pupils of compulsory school age and above (age 1997. [34996] as at 31 August) whose first language is known or believed to be other than English is shown in the Mr Gibb: The requested information is shown in the following table. following table:

Number and percentage of primary schools1 with more than 50% of pupils whose first language is known or believed to be other than English2 January 1997 to 2010— England Number of primary schools1 With more than 50% of pupils whose first language is known or believed to be other than English2 Total Percentage

19973 685 18,392 3.7 1998 789 18,312 4.3 1999 762 18,234 4.2 2000 793 18,158 4.4 20014 903 18,069 5.0 2002 935 17,985 5.2 2003 933 17,861 5.2 2004 976 17,762 5.5 2005 1,019 17,642 5.8 2006 1,069 17,504 6.1 2007 1,149 17,361 6.6 2008 1,216 17,205 7.1 2009 1,284 17,064 7.5 2010 1,328 16,971 7.8 1 Includes middle schools as deemed. 2 Pupils of compulsory school age and above, as at 31 August prior to each year shown, were classified by first language. Excludes dual registrations. 3 Includes four schools where pupils below compulsory school age may have been included in the count of pupils whose first language was known or believed to be other than English. 4 Includes 78 schools where pupils below compulsory school age may have been included in the count of pupils whose first language was known or believed to be other than English. Source: School Census

Chris Skidmore: To ask the Secretary of State for http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000925/ Education how many (a) primary and (b) secondary index.shtml school pupils there were where English was an Pupils: Per Capita Costs additional language in the last 12 months. [35021] Mr Gibb: In January 2010 the number of pupils of Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Education compulsory school age and above (age as at 31 August) what estimate he has made of the average funding per whose first language was known or believed to be other school pupil in (a) Cambridgeshire County Council than English was 518,020 in local authority maintained area, (b) Surrey County Council area, (c) Peterborough primary schools and 378,220 in state-funded secondary City Council area, (d) Essex County Council area, (e) schools. Buckinghamshire County Council area, (f) Bedfordshire This information can be found in table 5 in the County Council area, (g) Hertfordshire County Council Schools, Pupils and their Characteristics: January 2010 area and (h) nationally in (i) 2009-10, (ii) 2010-11 and Statistical First Release at: (iii) 2011-12. [35029] 971W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 972W

Mr Gibb [holding answer 20 January 2011]: The The nature of RE is such that local authorities and available information for 2009-10 and 2010-11 is shown schools, who know their communities, are best positioned in the following table: to design a syllabus which reflects local traditions and Budget spend per pupil for 2009-10 and 2010-11 needs. The locally agreed syllabus, which is designed by 2009-10 2010-11 Standing Advisory Councils on Religious Education and adopted by the local authority, is statutory, and England 3,894.24 4,082.88 that means that local authorities must provide such a Bedford 3,849.83 3,969.45 syllabus and that maintained schools must follow it. Borough The Government do not intend to make any changes to Buckinghamshire 3,709.38 3,932.04 the statutory basis for RE. Cambridgeshire 3,585.43 3,764.84 Essex 3,796.23 3,895.38 Caroline Nokes: To ask the Secretary of State for Hertfordshire 3,760.08 4,033.00 Education for what reasons he has excluded religious Peterborough 3,909.47 4,039.08 studies from the humanities list of the English Surrey 3,828.82 3,977.21 Baccalaureate. [36031]

On 13 December 2010, the Government announced Mr Gibb: For the purposes of the 2010 performance the Dedicated Schools Grant settlement for each local tables the humanities element of the English Baccalaureate authority and details of the pupil premium for 2011-12. measure was either history or geography. We have not For 2011-12, we are protecting school funding in the included religious education (RE) as fulfilling the humanity system at flat cash per pupil, before adding the pupil requirement of the English Baccalaureate because it is premium. Flat cash per pupil means that as pupil numbers already a compulsory subject. One of the intentions of go up, the overall budget goes up in line. the English Baccalaureate is to encourage wider take up of geography and history in addition to, rather than Religious Education instead of, compulsory RE. However we recognise, as many schools do, the benefits Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for that religious education can bring to pupils. This is why Education what his policy is on the requirement for the teaching of RE remains compulsory throughout a religious education to be a compulsory subject in all pupil’s schooling. Success in all subjects studied at maintained schools. [33977] GCSE will also continue to be recognised by other performance table measures, as it has in the past. We are Mr Gibb: Religious education holds a unique position open to arguments about how we can further improve as a statutory subject in the basic curriculum for all the measures in the performance tables and will review pupils in maintained schools in England. It is not a part the precise definition of the English Baccalaureate for of the National Curriculum, which means that there are the 2011 tables. no statutory national programmes of study, attainment targets or assessment arrangements. The nature of RE School Meals is such that local authorities and schools, who know their communities, are best positioned to design a syllabus Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for which reflects local traditions and needs. The locally Education whether he has made a cost-benefit assessment agreed syllabus, which is designed by Standing Advisory of the merits of extending the Dinner Money module to Councils on Religious Education SACRE and adopted all primary schools using the SIMS register software. by the local authority, is statutory, and that means that [34683] local authorities must provide such a syllabus and that maintained schools must follow it. Schools with a religious Mr Gibb: The Department does not generally assess character can either follow the locally agreed syllabus, individual software applications such as SIMS in schools. or use a syllabus which has been agreed by their governing It is for schools and local authorities to decide which body. It is the responsibility of the head teacher, governors products, including software of this type, best suit their and local authorities (LAs) to make the necessary provisions needs. They are best placed to procure such products for RE in all maintained schools. based on their particular circumstances. We are firmly committed to maintaining the strong However, we are always interested to hear about new position of RE in the basic school curriculum and we developments in technology and to support value for do not intend to change the current statutory arrangements. money and good compatibility (interoperability) between operating systems such as SIMS and other systems. Mr Burrowes: To ask the Secretary of State for Education whether his Department’s review of the Schools: Finance national curriculum will include the status of religious education. [34862] Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how funds for capital spending will be Mr Gibb: Religious education (RE) is a statutory part allocated equitably to (a) new academy schools and of the basic curriculum of maintained schools in England, (b) maintained schools. [9097] but not a part of the national curriculum. There are a number of important components of a broad and balanced Mr Gibb: On 13 December 2010, my right hon. school curriculum for which, as is currently the case, it Friend the Secretary of State for Education (Michael would be inappropriate to prescribe national programmes Gove) announced 2011-12 allocations of capital funding of study. RE falls into this category, and therefore, falls for local authorities and schools. This included that outside the scope of a review of the national curriculum. open academies will continue to be eligible for devolved 973W Written Answers3 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 974W formula capital funds on the same basis as maintained teachers retook the compulsory (a) numeracy and (b) schools, and that there will be a centrally retained literacy test (i) once, (ii) twice and (iii) three times or capital fund for academy maintenance needs. From more in each of the last five years. [32203] 2012-13, allocations will be informed by the capital review which the Secretary of State announced on 5 July 2010, and which will be published in due course. Mr Gibb: The available information is given in the Teachers: Qualifications following table and relates to the number of trainees who passed their skills tests after one, two or more than Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for two attempts between 2004/05 and 2008/09. Education how many and what proportion of trainee

Number and percentage of candidates taking tests by number of attempts years: 2004/05 to 2008/09. Coverage: England 2004/05 2005/06 2006/07 2007/08 2008/09 No.% No%No.%No.%No.%

Literacy test Total number 34,400 — 34,700 — 35,280 — 33,990 — 33,520 — of candidates taking test Passed skills tests by number of attempts: 1 26,930 78.3 27,440 79.1 28,940 82.0 27,320 80.4 26,810 80.0 2 4,410 12.8 4,200 12.1 3,710 10.5 3,760 11.1 3,890 11.6 3 or more 2,560 7.4 2,510 7.2 2,270 6.4 2,490 7.3 2,730 8.2 Total pass 33,900 98.6 34,150 98.4 34,930 99.0 33,570 98.8 33,440 99.8

Failed at least 490 1.4 550 1.6 360 1.0 420 1.2 80 0.2 once and are yet to pass

Numeracy test Total number 33,970 — 34,290 — 34,920 — 33,600 — 33,520 — of candidates taking test Passed skills tests by number of attempts: 1 26,960 79.4 26,790 78.1 26,810 76.8 26,160 77.9 26,030 77.7 2 3.310 9.8 3,430 10.0 3,520 10.1 3,260 9.7 3,190 9.5 3 or more 2,970 8.7 3,160 9.2 3,840 11.0 3,480 10.4 3,530 10.5 Total pass 33,250 97.9 33,380 97.3 34,170 97.8 32,910 97.9 32,750 97.7

Failed at least 720 2.1 910 2.7 750 2.2 690 2.1 770 2.3 once and are yet to pass Note: Numbers have been individually rounded to nearest 10 and may not sum. Source: TDA website ORAL ANSWERS

Thursday 3 February 2011

Col. No. Col. No. ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS— AFFAIRS...... 1013 continued Bees...... 1021 Forests ...... 1017 CITES...... 1027 Forests ...... 1022 Common Agricultural Policy ...... 1019 Ivory Trade ...... 1019 Dangerous Dogs ...... 1026 Mackerel Quota ...... 1013 Farm Incomes...... 1026 Rural Payments Agency ...... 1016 Fish Discards ...... 1014 Rural Payments Agency ...... 1024 Fish Discards ...... 1025 Topical Questions ...... 1028 Flood Defences...... 1021 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Thursday 3 February 2011

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 47WS HOME DEPARTMENT—continued Parliamentary Written Question (Correction)...... 47WS Prevention of Terrorism Act 2005 (Lord Carlile’s Report on its Operation in 2010)...... 54WS CABINET OFFICE...... 49WS LEADER OF THE HOUSE ...... 54WS Mental Health Act 1983 (Repeal of Section 141) ... 49WS IPSA (Evidence to the First Year Review from the Leader of the House)...... 54WS COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 48WS European Regional Development Fund (Revised TRANSPORT ...... 55WS Management Arrangements) ...... 48WS ATOL Scheme ...... 56WS Drivers (Medical Standards) ...... 55WS ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 49WS TREASURY ...... 47WS EU Emissions Trading System Registries Public Service Pensions ...... 47WS (Suspension of Transfers) ...... 50WS Parliamentary Written Question (Correction)...... 49WS WALES...... 58WS Education Bill: Framework Powers Explanatory FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 50WS Memorandum...... 58WS General Affairs Council and Foreign Affairs Proposed National Assembly for Wales Council (31 January 2011)...... 51WS (Legislative Competence) (Highways and Jordan...... 50WS Transport) Order 2011 ...... 58WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 57WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 53WS Contracted-Out Rebate Rates (Quinquennial Deputy Immigration Services Commissioner ...... 53WS Review) ...... 57WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Thursday 3 February 2011

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 876W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS—continued Police ...... 876W National Union of Students: Membership...... 959W Office of Fair Trading: Complaints...... 960W Older Workers: Cumbria...... 960W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 953W Overseas Students: Bangladesh ...... 961W Apprentices...... 953W Overseas Students: Yemen...... 961W Apprentices: Engineering ...... 954W Burton’s Foods: Moreton ...... 954W Consumer Credit: Licensing...... 955W CABINET OFFICE...... 912W Consumers: Advisory Services ...... 956W Social Security Benefits: Advisory Services ...... 912W Departmental Libraries...... 956W Departmental Regulation...... 957W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 880W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 957W Council Housing: Property Transfer ...... 880W Environment Protection...... 957W Decentralisation and Localism Bill ...... 881W Exports ...... 957W Empty Dwelling Management Orders: Exports: Military Aircraft...... 958W Bromsgrove...... 881W Further Education: VAT ...... 958W Government: Assets ...... 881W Higher Education: North West ...... 959W Holocaust Memorial Day ...... 881W Local Enterprise Partnerships...... 959W Housing: Carbon Emissions...... 882W Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE—continued continued Renewable Energy: Heating ...... 912W Housing: Construction...... 882W Localism Bill...... 883W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Private Rented Housing ...... 883W AFFAIRS...... 903W Public Sector: Carbon Emissions ...... 884W Common Fisheries Policy ...... 903W Social Rented Housing: Sales...... 884W Crayfish ...... 904W Tenancy Deposit Schemes...... 884W Departmental Carbon Emissions ...... 905W Departmental Libraries...... 906W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT...... 875W Departmental Working Conditions...... 906W Departmental Regulations ...... 875W Fisheries...... 907W Internet: Devon...... 875W Fishing Vessels ...... 907W Olympic Games 2012 ...... 875W Forestry Commission...... 907W Public Libraries: Cumbria...... 876W Forests ...... 903W Global Food Security...... 904W DEFENCE...... 930W Industrial Health and Safety...... 908W Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations ...... 930W Rights of Way...... 908W Armed Forces: Health Services ...... 929W Rural Payments Agency ...... 903W Armed Forces: Mental Health Services...... 930W Salmon...... 908W Army...... 930W Artillery: Training ...... 931W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 885W Departmental Photography...... 933W Arms Trade: Treaties...... 885W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 934W British Overseas Territories...... 886W Lynx Helicopters...... 934W Departmental Consultants...... 886W Military Exercises ...... 935W Diplomatic Service: Domestic Service...... 887W Nimrod Aircraft...... 936W Egypt: Politics and Government ...... 887W Nuclear Weapons...... 936W Iran: Baha’i Faith...... 887W Rescue Services: Helicopters ...... 937W Kashmir...... 888W Territorial Waters...... 937W North Africa: Human Rights...... 888W Unmanned Air Vehicles ...... 937W Private Military and Security Companies: World War II...... 938W Regulation ...... 888W

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 893W HEALTH...... 943W Devolution...... 893W Biomedical Research...... 943W Electoral Register: Social Security Benefits ...... 893W Cancer: Drugs...... 944W Ministerial Policy Advisers...... 893W Cancer: Health Education...... 944W Carers: Older People ...... 944W EDUCATION...... 962W Community Health Services: Fuels ...... 945W Children in Care...... 962W Departmental Secondments ...... 945W Curriculum ...... 962W Fertility: Medical Treatments...... 946W Departmental Manpower...... 963W General Practitioners ...... 946W Departmental Work Experience...... 963W General Practitioners: Manpower ...... 947W Free School Meals...... 964W Health...... 947W Free School Meals: Sunderland...... 964W Health: Private Sector ...... 948W Free Schools...... 965W Hearing: Babies...... 948W Home Education...... 965W Hospital Beds...... 948W New Enterprise Allowance...... 965W Industrial Health and Safety...... 948W Personal, Social, Health and Economic Influenza: Newton Abbot ...... 949W Education ...... 966W Maternal Mortality...... 950W Pupils: Absenteeism ...... 966W Medical Equipment: Expenditure ...... 949W Pupils: Coventry ...... 968W NHS: Finance ...... 949W Pupils: English Language...... 969W Pain...... 950W Pupils: Per Capita Costs...... 970W Prescription Drugs...... 951W Religious Education...... 971W Prescriptions ...... 951W School Meals ...... 972W Preventive Medicine...... 952W Schools: Finance...... 972W Speech Therapy: Worcestershire...... 952W Teachers: Qualifications...... 973W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 913W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 909W Anti-Semitism...... 913W Biofuels...... 909W Asylum ...... 914W Carbon Emissions: EU Action...... 909W Departmental Art Works ...... 925W Carbon Reduction Commitment Energy Departmental Furniture...... 925W Efficiency Scheme ...... 909W Departmental Procurement...... 925W Coal Fired Power Stations...... 910W Departmental Video Recordings ...... 926W Electricity...... 910W Detention Centres: Children ...... 926W Energy...... 910W Entry Clearances: Appeals ...... 927W Energy: Prices ...... 911W Entry Clearances: Overseas Students ...... 927W Energy Supply...... 911W Foreign Workers...... 927W Fuel Poverty...... 911W Human Trafficking ...... 927W Global Warming Policy Foundation ...... 912W Ministers’ Private Offices ...... 928W Natural Gas and Oil...... 912W Police: Demonstrations ...... 928W Col. No. Col. No. HOME DEPARTMENT—continued TRANSPORT—continued Police: Powers ...... 929W Sea Rescue: Northern Ireland ...... 878W West Coast Railway Line ...... 879W JUSTICE...... 938W West Coast Railway Line: Franchising...... 879W Courts: Closures ...... 938W Legal Aid ...... 939W TREASURY ...... 889W Legal Aid: Cumbria ...... 940W Banks: Pay ...... 889W Legal Aid: Greater London...... 941W Cycle to Work Scheme ...... 889W Legal Aid: Prisoners...... 941W Excise Duties: Fuels ...... 889W Legal Aid Scheme ...... 939W Excise Duties: Wines...... 890W Legal Aid: Social Security Benefits ...... 941W Financial Inclusion Fund: Halifax ...... 890W Magistrates Courts...... 942W Income Tax: Sunderland ...... 891W Prisoners: Health ...... 943W Income Tax: Tax Rates and Bands ...... 891W Prisoners’ Release ...... 942W Loans...... 892W Personal Savings ...... 892W PRIME MINISTER ...... 885W Sovereign Support Grant ...... 892W Departmental Pay ...... 885W Rupert Murdoch ...... 885W WALES...... 880W Departmental Regulations ...... 880W SCOTLAND...... 879W Economic Growth...... 879W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 893W Forestry Commission...... 880W Departmental Telephone Services ...... 893W President of the Convention of Scottish Local Employment Schemes: Alcoholic Drinks and Authorities...... 880W Drugs...... 894W Housing Benefit ...... 895W TRANSPORT ...... 876W Housing Benefit: Brent ...... 895W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 876W Jobcentre Plus: Internet...... 896W Dorset...... 877W Social Security Benefits: Fraud ...... 896W Driving: Licensing...... 877W State Retirement Pensions...... 897W Human Trafficking ...... 877W State Retirement Pensions: Uprating...... 897W Railways: Franchising ...... 877W Telereal Trillium...... 897W Railways: Overcrowding...... 878W Winter Fuel Payments...... 898W Railways: Vandalism ...... 878W Work Capability Assessment...... 898W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Thursday 10 February 2011

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CONTENTS

Thursday 3 February 2011

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 1013] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs

Business of the House [Col. 1035] Statement—(Sir George Young)

Proposed Directive (Information Systems) [Col. 1051] Statement—(James Brokenshire)

Backbench Business [18th allotted day] Consumer Credit and Debt Management [Col. 1060] Motion—(Stella Creasy) Amendment—(Mr Robin Walker)—on a Division, agreed to Motion, as amended, agreed to

Legal Aid Reform [Col. 1117] Motion—(Yvonne Fovargue)

STV [Col. 1151] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Parliamentary Reform [Col. 339WH] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 47WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 875W] [see index inside back page]