3956 Adjournment. (ASSEMBLY.] Questions and Answer&..

wrong. impression of the object of the bill. What we want to do is expressed in clause 12, which states: Thursday, 20 March, 1930. A trust shall take all necessary steps to co-ordinate all such operations within its Printed Questions and Answers-Questions without district, mitigate wasteful competition and Notice-Prickly-pear (Amemlment) Bill (third overlapping in service, and shall take such reading)-We,tern Lands (Amendment) Bill­ steps as in its judgment are essential to Privilege-Police Offenees Amendm e.1 (Fireum~) Bill (second reading). secure to the public safety, regularity, effi­ ciency, and convenience of service, at just and reasonable rates. · Mr. SPEAKER took the cha.ir. Question-That the bill be now read a second time-put. The House divided: PRINTED QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS. Ayes, 37; noes, 3; majority, 34.

AYES. WESTERN LAND SETTLEMENT. Black, G. Mahony, R. Mr. HORSINGTON asked the Mvn­ Boyce, F. S. McDonald, G. R. W. STER FOR LANDS,-(1) In view of the Braddon, Sir Henry Nesbitt, G. land-hunger in the Western Division, will Bryant, F. H. Playfair, Lt.-Col. he explain why the following large areas Buzacott, N. J. Robson, W. E. V. are allowed· to be held year after year Coates, J. F. Ryan, J. under occupation license by large land­ Cole, S. L. Sinclair, A. Cotter, L. Smith, D. M. holders who have many times over a Dick, W. T. Storey, T. living area : Buckanbee, 63,905 acres; Doyle, T. P. Travers, J. Pirillie, 11,248 acres; Avoca, 27,885 Farleigh, J. G. Varley, G. H. G. acres; Meryula, 36,640 acres; :Monolon, Farrar, E. H. Waddell, T. No. 5, 33,600 acres; Onepar, 63,300 Hemsley, A. 1\f. Willis, A. C. acres; Billilla, 28,5-11 acres? (2) ,Win Hickey, Simon Wise,J.H. Higgins, J. F. Wrench, G. he have these areas withdrawn and is~ Hunt, A. E. Yager, A. W. sued as new leases or additionals to Keegan,J. Tellers, those settlers who at present have not Lane-Mullins, J. Ainsworth, "\V. a living area? Lyons, J.D. Culbert, A. Answer,-(1) and (2) Owing to its NOES. shape, Budkanbee resumed area would Tellers, be di:fllcult to work as a small holding. O'Conor, B. B. McGin:, P. 1\f. It is nearly thirty miles long, and for Spicer, F. W. a great part of that distance is only Question so resolved in the affirmati;e. two miles wide. Negotiations have been made with the owner of the· adjoining. Bill read a second time and committed lease for an exchange. All the avail~ pro forma. able area in Pirillie has been absorbed. Avoca resumed area consists of scat­ ADJOURNMENT. tered af·eas, mostly covered by lakes, The Ron. F. S. BOYCE: I move: which can only be used by adjoining­ holders. Meryula resumed area is cov­ That this House do now adjourn. ered by timber reserves not available for 1 may say that I told hon. members that lease. Monolon No. 5 resumed area doe; I would not go any further, and I am not constitute a living area. Onep;r keeping my word, though I should very resumed area is situated in the far north­ much like to take another measure. western part of the division, and does Question :,·esolved in the affirmative. not constitute a substantial living area. Billilla resumed area consists of a long House adjourned at 9.42 p.in. until nar1:ow strip, nearly 60 miles long, Tuesday next. which could not be worked as a small Questions and Answers. [2'0 MAR., 1930.] Questions and Answers. 3957

lease. If it is found that any adjoining ber of resumptions and originals? (5) lessee has not a living area, additional How many of the holdings are in excess land will be granted if available." of a substantial maintenance area? (6) Will he give the areas held by thirty of .RAILWAY ELECTRIFICATION COSTS. the largest holdings, either individuals Mr. CARTER asked the CoLoNIAL or companies, separate and collective? TnEASUREH,-(1) What :has been the (7) Will he give the time these leas•3S total cost ·)£ electr.fying the Main Sub­ have been held and the value of the urban, Illawarra, Bankstown, and North improvements per acre and collectively Shore railway lines; including the wid­ placed thereon by the present lessees?. ening of the lines and alterations t.) (S) 'What area is held under permissive station platforms and bridges~ (2) occupancy or license~ (9) Has the What has lheen the cost of the electric i\V estern Lands Board power under the I·olling-stock used 011 the Main Suburban amendments of the Western Lands Act, Illawarra, Bankstown, and North Shor~ 1927, to resume all or any part of any :railway lines? (3) What has been the western lands lease, providing that ~he total cost of resumptions in connecti•m Government finds the money for com­ with the installation of these electric pe~ation? services? Answer,-(1) 232. (2) The present. Answer,-l am informed: area is 34,982,682 acres; 4,994,405 acres' have been withdrawn. (3) All westerm. (1) Cost of electrifying the lines to 31st J anuat·y, 1930, exclusive of rolling-stock Jands leases are subject to the with- . but inclusive of power stations substations drawal of one-eighth under the provi-. electrical repair workshops and machinery; sions of section 17, but no areas capahle · was £10,381,730. This covers the expendi­ of supplying a living area are avail- - ture on account of the following sections:­ Main Suburban line to Parramatta Illa­ able. (4) 3,206 (1,762 converted leases:_ wara line to National Park Bankstown and subdivision leases and 1,444 new" · line, Hornsby to Milson's Poil;t, Strathfield leases). (5) . Approximately 78. (6)• to Hornsby, Granville to Liverpool, Lid· Alex. Armstrong Pty. Ltd., 680,766; : combe to Regent's Park, Regent's Park to Cabramatta, Canterbury to Warwick Farm. acres; Australian Estates and Mortgage' ( 2) The cost of electric rolling-stock to Co. Ltd., 617,491 acres; Australian Mer­ 31st January, 1930, was £6,075,512. This cantile Land and Finance Co. Ltd., . cost includes not only the whole of the new 1,000,353 acres;_ Australian .Sheep 1Farms vehicles ob~a~ned for electric working, but Ltd., 1,366,806 acres; Brewarrina Pas:'­ also the ongmal cost of old carriages con­ verted and fitted with equipment for a simi­ toral Co. Ltd., 836,519 acres; Bootra­ lar purpose. (3) Total cost of resumptions Pastoral Co., 1,049,733 acres; J. B. A .. in connection with electric services was E., and W. B. ·Christian, 453,629 acres;: £80,266. This amount is included in item Corona Pastoral Co. Ltd., 869,537 acres;_-· (1). A. Crozier, 808,222 acres; Dunlop Ltd.,,. WESTERN LA"NDS LEASER. 417,2&9 acres; Elsinora Ltd., 1,178,477' acres; Goldsbrough, ~fort, & Co. Ltd., ~ Mr. DAVIDSON asked the MiNISTER 658,272 · acres; R: E. It. Hope, 473,165.;~ FOR LA~Ds,_.:Will he supply answers to acres; Horton, :!faclure Pty. Ltd.,~ the following questions at the earliest possible date: (1) How rmany eight!1 864,690 acres; H. B. Hughes (Exors.)._. resumptions have been made availaible 582,750 acres; Keewong Pastoral Co.,_ in the western lands area since the estab­ 44S,765. acres; Marsfield Pastoral C.:> .. lishment of the Western Lands Board? Ltd;, 556,108 acres; Morden Proprietol.'s (2) What is the aggregate acreage of J.,ha Ltd., 1,321, 710 acres; Moulamein Pas­ w~ole of the above leases? (3) What toral Co. Ltd., 44:8,878 acres; Mt. Wood area still remains 'that could be resumed Pastoral Co. Pty. Ltd., 467,496 acres; by the iboard under the provisions of the New Zealand and Australian Land Co. eighth resumption? .. ( 4) · What is i;he Ltd., 1,266,337 acres; J. M. Parker, aggregate number of holdings in . the 443,909 acres; S. D. Reid, 7 46,333 acr-es; western lands divil'ion, giving the num- Scottish-Austrll,lian Investment Co. Ltd.~ 3953 Questions and Answers. lASSEMBLY.] Questions and Answers.

543,007 acres; J. Dunne, deceased (Trus­ and £4,905 16s. 1d. to working expenses. tees), 770,706 acres; Tupra Pastoral Co. The estimated cost to complete the ballast­ ing is ~0. The small amount of ballasting Pty. Ltd., 565,4.57 acres; iVeiriter'iga remaining to be done .consists of surface Pastoral Co. Ltd., 493,590 acres; A. 0. ballasting only, and the completion of same Ferguson (Exors.), 62q,'778 acres; Yan­ has been held up until certain work adja­ cent to the 'tramway extension is completed cannia Pastoral Co. Ltd., 1,148,1Z6 by the local authority. ( 4) Five men are acres; Yandama Pastoral Co., 1,114,711 employed ·for full shifts and two men for acres. (7) The leases have been held as part shifts at a cost of £2,032 per annum. western lands leases since J 902. Infor­ mation as to value per acre of improve­ ments placed on these by the present RAILWAY BRIDGE, PARRA:MA'TTA. lessees is not available. (8) Permissive Mr. JAMES McGIRR asked the occupancy, 386,975 acres; occupation COLONIAL TREASUHER_.-(1) Where was license, 569,412 acres; preferential occu­ the railway bridge 'built that was placed pation license, 82,487 acres. (9) ,Section over ·Church-street, P-artamatta, last 4 of Western Lands (Amendment) Act, year~ (2) What was the weight and 1927, authorises the withdrawal oi the cost o£ building same? (3) What wns whole or any part of any western lands the cost of p1acing it in position~ lease when required for the purpose o£ Answer,-! am informed: .settlement. (1) At Permanent-way Workshops, N.cw· castle. (2) Steelwork, 193 tons; concrete, BOKDI BEACH-SCARBOROUGH 150 tons.; ballast, 105 tons; total, 448 tons. The ·-cast Of the ·steelwoi·k was £6,069. (3) CRESCENT TRAMWAY. The total cost of .the whole job was £12.,378 lfr. ;r A:M:ES 1\fcGIRR -asked the SEc­ 14s., whkh included tempora'I'Y trestlin.g and foundations for same, ·:pro-vision of RETii.RY FOR PUBLIC WonK8,-Will he winches, overtime worked on Sunday night, furnish the following information ·re­ pulling out of pln.ce, removal, a:nd dismant­ garding the extenRion of ·the tram from lvhich to examine the rolls and, :Mr. MARKS: Is the Minister for if not enrolled for the district in which Public Works n ware that the residents they live, will be able to have themselves

they are liable to be fined. It is my referred, but I certainly will consult with desire and has been my practice that the my colleague, the Attorney-General, m public shall be supplied with all possible regard to the· matter. information for their guidance in re­ gard to the progress of this campaign, DISPOSAL. OF GARBAGE. and I believe that all hon. members desire that there shall be full publicity. Mr. REID: I desire to ask the Pre­ I will invite the press to assist me by mier if he can inform the House whether publishing information so that the public the Glebe Council conforms to the regu­ shall have all the guidance they are lations laid down in regard to· depositing entitled to. rubbish at sea. Is the Premier aware J.fr. LANG: Evidently the Minister has that many councils are now complaining not understood the full purport of my . in connection with this matter? D'Oes question. I admit what he has said, but he recognise the seri01.1s danger to the what I mean is that the writ could be health of children who play on the issued, say, to-morrow. The rolls would beaches, who may pick up some of th6 then be closed, and nobody would know goods washed.up there, with serious con­ about it. I ask the Minister if he will sequences to their health in the future? consult with his colleagues with a view Mr. BAVI~: I ha>e not heard of any to making an announcement that the complaints of the nature referred to, and writ is to be issued, say, in a week's time? I am not aware whether there are any That would give a week's notice to en­ municipal councils which are not con­ able people to become enrolled, and then, forniing with the rules laid down in that if they did not take advantage of the op­ matter. I will hRYe inquiries madQ at portunity it would be their own fault. once to ascertain whether there is any­ Captain CHAFFEY: Yes. I will see thing in the statement. if I can do what the leader of the Oppo­ sition suggests. TEACHERS' SALARY INCREASER Mr. BAVIK: The writs will be issued Mr. DAVIES: Will the Minister for very shortly ! Education state whether it is a fact that Mr. LANG: Will the Premier say .that he still refuses to receive any deputa­ it would be a fair thing to give the tion from the Teachers' Federation, and people a week's notice before the issue that he still declares the Federation of the writ? "black"? \Viii he inform the House how Mr. BAVIN: Yes; I will do that. I long he intends to act in this childish ' think that to-morrow I may be able to manner? announce the date of the issue of the Mr. 1SPEAKER: Ord€1'! writ. I cannot promise, but I will en­ Mr. DRU11fMOKD: When the hou. deavour to do that. member foz· \Vollongong or any other hon. member addresses a courteous qu£s­ DIVORCE COURT: CONGESTION. tion to me he will receive a repl.)T. Mr. JAQUES: Has the Minister for Justice seen the statement of 1\f:r. Justice SPIT BRIDGE TOLI.S. Langer Owen, as to the serious conges­ Mr. SANDERS: Has the Minister iion in the matrimonial causes jurisdic­ for Public Works received from the tion, and the necessity for the appoint­ Crown Law authorities any report as to ment of a second permanent judge to pre­ side in that jurisdiction? Will the Min­ whether or not it is possible to lift thf' i5ter consult with his colleague, the toll on the Spit Bridge? If so, and if Attorney-General, nnd see whether ~he he cannot come to a determination at suggestion of the learned judge can be once, will he make up hi~ mind in the earried out? near future, in view of the trouble and Mr. J. R. LEE: I did not notice the delay that is occasionf:!d to people by statement to which the hon. member has having to pay the toll? Questions and Answers.. [20 MAR.J 1930.] Questions and Answers. 3961

Yr. BUTTENSHAW: The report was standing in the name of the hon. member referred to the Crown Solicitor for ad­ for Goulburn with reference to the re­ vice; that advice has been received, and moval- of railway work to Ohullora. will now be promptly acted upon. At Mr. STEVENS: The answer to tl1& the moment, I cannot give the hon. first two questions is that I have 110 member any more · information, ·except knowledge of the details of the admin­ that I propose to take action almost istration of the railway serviee and do immediately to lift the toll. not know whether or lli't officers have been sent to Bathurst, or, if they lwve UNEMPLOYMENT: BROKEN HILL. heen sent, for what purpose they were Mr. HORSINGTON: In view of the sent. The Government has endeavoured serious unemployment that exists at Bro­ to apply the policy of leaving detail;; },en Hill, and also of the fact that the concerning the administration of the rail­ Broken Hill water supply administration, way service to the executive head of that of which the 11inister for Public Works service. The other question, which is· is the official head, is in a prosperous cognate to that raised by the hon. mem­ state, will he instruct his officer at Bro­ ber for Goulburn, is one which the House· ken Hill not to prosecute any unem­ will have an opportunity of discussing. ployed person for unpaid water rates when the railway budget is brought down whilst the present depression lasts? within the next few days. Mr. BUTTENSHAW: I will ha'"~ the matter inquired into and, as far ns SOUTH MAITLAND RAILWAYS. I possi·bly can, will prevent any unfair Mr. BAVIN: With reference to thlf prosecution taking place. question asked of me on the 12th instant by the hon. member for Cessnock:, with­ SYDNEY HARBOUR BRIDGE. regard to the re-opening of the South Mr. W AL:MSLEY: Can the Premier Maitland railway traffic, I told the hon, inform the House whether he has yet member that I had been in communica· received a reply frum the sub-committee tion with the owners, but I have only

which was appointed to go into the ques­ just received a reply from Mr. Atkins7 . tion of buses and trams crossing Sydney general secretary of the Federated En­ Harbour bridge? gine-drivers and Firemen's Association. Mr. BAVIN: The sub-committee has Mr. Atkins has informed me that con• not yet reported, but I will make in­ ferences have taken place between repre· quiries and ascertain the position. sentatives of South :M:aitland Railways Limited and his association with a view RAILWAY WORKSHOPS: to resumption of operations. }fost o:f CENTRALISATION. the obstacles in the way of resumption appear to have been removed and the­ Mr. 'C. A. KEDLY: Will the Minis- . association is hopeful of being able to ter for Railways ascertain whether four settle all matters in dispute within a officers of the Railway Department were recently sent by the Railway Department very short time. to Bathurst for the purpose of finding out how many men can be dispensed BUNNERONG POWER-HOUSE. with, and whether the reason given for Mr. BAVIN: On the 20th Februar:v this in railway circles is that there i:> the hon. member for Leichhardt asked' not sufficient work for the men in Syd­ for information with respect to tenders ney and, for that reason, repairs are invited by the Civic Commissioners for bei.ng sent from Bathurst and other rail­ switch-gear for the Bunnerong .Power· way centres in order to find work for house: I have been in communication: men in the city.· :Will the Minister with the Civic 'Commissioners, and am. confer with the Premier, and ascertain informed that a tender by A. Reyrolle­ when this House will have the opportun­ & Company Limited, of England, in the· ity of discussing the notice of motion amount of £65,677 was accepted by the· 3962 Questions and Answers. .[ A.SSEMBLYJ Questions and Answers.

Commissioners f:n the supply and de­ look up my statement on that date, he Every of 11,000-volt metal-clad mitcb­ will see that a sum of £22;500 was .allo­ gear for substations. The tender of cated ior sewerage WOTks in the New­ Metropolitan Vickers Electrical Com­ castle district. This is the only sum pany Limited, for'localmanufacture, ·was which was allocated for sewerage works. in the amount of £71,512, of which plant With respect to expenditure upon road to the estimated value of £57,210 would works, Teferred to by the hon. member be manufactured locally. When the ten­ for W ollongong, I desire to say that a ders were under consideration the ten­ sum of about £47,000 was divided der for locally-manufactured plant was amongst 175 municipal councils and the fully considered, and a deputation from sum of £28,000 amongst 140 shire coun~ the Chamber of Manufactures was re­ cils, the councils being required to .spend -ceived by the Commissioners on the sub­ the money on road works approved by ject. The Commissioners, however, the Local Government Department, and decided to accept the tender of A. Rey­ to expend at least 75 per cent. of the rolle and Oompan~ Limited, because grant on labom. plant previously supplied by Metropoli­ tan Vickers and manufactured locally PROSPECTING: SALE OF GOLD. had given a considerable amount of Captain DUNN: Is the :Minister :for tro::ble in service, and generally the de­ Mines aware that there is great diffi­ sign of this plant was much inferior to culty in selling' gold in .countcy tnwns ~ that supplied by Reyrolle & Company Is he further awa1·e that there is no re­ Limited. Further, similar plant manu­ cognised buyer, and -that as business men factured locally and supplied under pre­ purchase at Yery 1ow rates, this has the vious contract wa3 up to :fifteen months effect of greatly retarding prospecting late in delivery. The Commissioners and fossicking in well-known mining point out that wl1enever practicable the districts? Will the Minister consider Commission prefers to accept ,plant of the advisableness of appoinfi11g a .gold local manufacture, eYen though the price buyer in recognised districts wnere gold might be slightly higher; but in this is to be found, especially in view; of the case, even after allowing the usual pre­ great volume of unemployment now ex­ ference for local manufacture, the plant isting? Perhaps branch managers of the

UNEMPLOYMENT: FEDERAL ASSIST­ 1..7~E11iPLOYMENT: FOOD RELIEF. AI\CE. Mr. VINCENT: I desire to ask the Mr. BAVIN: On the 13th instant the Cclonial Secretary whether food .relief hon. members for Cessnock and Wollon­ i,;; available in nece3sitons cases in coun­ gong asked for inLrmation with respect try towns? If so, will the Minister state to the distribution of the funds made the mode of procedure necessary jn .o-r.der :available by the Federal Government for to obtain it? the relief of unemployment. I find that Captain CHAFFEY: The conditions my recollection of this matter was ,cor­ which obtain in regard to food relief rect, and that full details of the alloca­ apply all over the State. tion of the £276,000 made available by }fr. Tt:LLY: It is not the .same in ·;.:1e the Federal Government were given by country as it is in the city! me to the House .on 17th December last. Captain CHAFFEY: It ·is. Where If the hon. member for Oessnock will there i: 'Vl c~;::'.2l'~ation of the Labour Questions and Answ.er:s. [2'0 liAR., 1930.] Questions and Ansioers. 8963

and Industry Department the p:-ocedure Labour and Industry, with a view to tl1e is for applications to be made at the appointment of a deputy-chairman w~th local ::police station. the object of clearing up auears? Mr. AKDERSOK: Is the Minister Captain CHAFFEY: At the moment representing the l{inister for Labour and I cannot supply the hon. member witll Industry a\v.are that tbe unemployed in the information he requires, hqt I will the Eyde district who are l'eceiving confer with my colleague, the :Minist:n­ rations :fro~n the State Labour Bureau for Labour and Industry, to see what t1le are obliged to come to Sydney i.n order position is and what can be done. to get. the requisite orders for those rations·~ Does he know that the journey GOLD PRODUCTION: Bmms. to the city costs l:J., and that applicants Mr. DA\TID SON: Will the :Minister for relief ,-,ho do not possess the fare for Mines consider the advisability of are obliged to walk 18 n:liles-9 miles bringing forward at the next Cabinet into Sydney and .1 similar distance upon meeting a proposal to provide a bonus the return journey~ Will he consider for gold production in New South Wales, the advisability of establishing an office thereby encouraging prospectors · and in the Ryde district at which relief creating more .employment? rations may be issued, ·thereby .avoiding }fT. WEAVER: We certain]~, will the necessity for subjecting applicants to this hardship? consider the matter. Mr. STANLEY: \Viii the Minister also take into consideration .the advis­ CARDIFF RAILWAY- WORKSHOPS: ablene$S of establishing a labour .bureau DISiiHSSALS. from which ration!'< n1ay be issued out­ Nr. CO~~ELL: I wish to ask the side. the metrefpolitan area, either at Minister for Railwavs if it is a fact Canterbury or Ba!lkstown? that it was proposed" some days ago to Captain OHAFTEY: During the past put off a lar.ge ::J.umber of men, about few days a tentative plan has been 100, at the Cardiff railway workshopg. formulated nnder Yvhich a particular area In view of the unemployment and dis:. of the metropolis has been subdivided tress existing in that district, will t'he into districts with the object of avoid­ :Minister arrange for the manager of ing unnecessary travelling on the part the workshops, or for an officer of the of ·unemployed applicants for relief, to department, to meet representatives of _enable that relief to be given to the per­ the unions concerned -so that there may sons concerned to the best advantage and oe a frank discussion on the matter, with at the least possible expense to the State. a view to minimisin!! hardEhio as much as possible. ~ - WORKERS' C0111'PENSATION }{r. STEVENS: I am prevared to COMMISSION. suggest that that be done. Quite re­ Mr. BUTLER: I wish to ask the Min­ cently I made a similar suggestion with ister representing the Minister for regard to a section of the Chullora work­ Labour and Indust1.·y if he is aware that shops where it was proposed, owing to considerable delay occurs in t11e hearing a needful curtailment of work, to dis­ of cases hy the Workers' Compenshtion pense with the-services of twelve waggon repairers. The men concerned sug­ Commission~ Will the :Minister have inquiries made and inform the House gested to their fellow employees of the number of cases at present await­ that a roster s;vstem should be intro· ing hearing, and if it is a fact that Jeci­ Captain CHAFFEY: I will bring the :fic and will say what is the precise matter under the notice of the Minjster object of the discussion he has in view. for Labour and Industry with a view to I took it that he had in view the seeing if the hon. member's suggestion system which obtains in many other can be put into practice. workshops at the present time. PILLIGA PUBLIC SCHOOL. NEWCASTLE DRAINAGE SCHEMES. Mr. W. J. SCULLY: Is the Minister Mr. CONNOLLY: In view of the for Education aware that the Pilliga fact that aerious allegations have been public school, a building in which made by responsible union officials and a large number of pupils are being employees upon the Newcastle drainage housed, is in .a most dilapidated state, scheme, will the - Minister for Public that two sides have fallen out, that the Works, in :>.ccord&nce with his promise roof is full of holes, and that the children to a deputation introduced to him by are exposed to wind, rain and sun? Is me, instruct a d3partmental officer to it not a fact that the looal sc·hool inspec­ proceed to Newcastle immediately for tor has recommended the work of repair the purpose of allnwiug the persons con­ as the most urgent work in his jnspec­ cerned -to submit evidence in support of torate? In view of the vital necessity. their allegations? Will the Minister see of protecting the health and the Jives that every employee who has evidence of the pupils, will the Minister recon­ to offer is afforded an opportunity of sider his decision and have the work of giving that evidence? rehabilitation carried out at the earliest Mr. BUTTEN8-HAW: In accordance possible moment? with the promise that I made, I sent an Mr. DRUMMOND: I cannot J'ecall officer to N ewcastlc to inquire into these whether the statements of the hoJJ, mem­ allegations and he has submitted his ber are facts, but I will inqvire. report to me. I have already shown a copy of that report to the hon. member. The officer has (1efinitely assured me PRICKLY-PEAR (AMENmiENT) that he not only saw the engineers BILL. engaged upon the work, who know what THIRD READING. is being done and the reason for it, but Motion (by Mr. Ball) proposed: he also interviewed a representative of That this biil be now read a third timao. the men. Further, he made a personal Captain DUNN (Mudgee) [3.3] : I inspection of the work, and he is quite was not here when the bill passed through satisfied that-_ the statements made by Committee, but I understand that seve­ the union officials are not in accordance ral very useful amendments were made Prickly-pear (20 MAR., 1930.] . (Amendment) Bill. '3965

-in it and that it is now drafted more on ished and he has returned. to the Crown the lines suggested by members of both the area he cannot clear. Every dis­ sides of the House. But I should like trict surveyor and every Crown official the Minister to hear my views with will urge that the reappraisement ehall -respect to one or two matters. The be made on the basis of the land retained Minister would have made the hill much after the elimination. No other basis better for those who are trying- to make would be recognised. There . would be serviceable land which is thickly cov­ difficulty in appraising on the original ered with pear, if he had not insisted value of land, taken up as far back as upon a reappraisement when portion of five years ago, after a man has done an a holding is returned to the Crown immense amount of work in clearing and after the holders discover that there is improving it. The Minister should say, a very heavily-infested area that it is "We will not reappraise the land and put almo&t impossible for them to clear. I up the man's rent." disagree entirely with the provision that To-day I had a complaint from a man the departments shall 'have the right to relative to valuations. It is not a mat­ ream:>raise the remainder of the land, ter directly connected with the bill, but because the reappraisement will be on I quote it to show the attitude of country the basis of the value of the land after people towards the increase of their ren­ it has been cleared. tal values. A prominent man, a -shire Mr. BALL: It will be reappraised on councillor, had a conditional lease. The the basis of the value when the land was time for reappraisement arrived. He taken up! was paying 5d. per acre; .he is to pay Captain DUNN: If the land retained Sd. per acre from the middle of next is to be reappraised on the value fixed week. In the middle of the worst time at the time the whole area was taken the man has ever had he has to pay 60 up, what is the need for reappraisement? per cent. more rent. That is what will ,Why not leave it at the value at the time happen in this case. This land is not it was taken up? very desirable. It is taken up under 'Mr. BALL: Because the whole area classes 3 and 4, which comprise the included both heavily and lightly infested most heavily-infested pear land. The land and the land retained taken separ­ holder has expended on it a good deal ately may be of more value. of money and a great amount of energy . .Captain DUNN: The reappraisement He then says, "Here is an area that I will apply only to land which the holder cannot improve. I must ask the Minis­ has been able to clear. Often the thick­ ter to allow me to get rid of it." The est pear is on the better land, but the Minister says, "All right. We will allow holder has found it impossible to clear you to do that, but you must submit to that. It will not necessarily be that the reappraisement." That is putting an area 1·etained is the better land. On the undue burden on a man who has worked contrary, it will be the land most easily hard to improve very difficult land which cleared. The Minister is wrong in say­ few would have taken up. The Minister ing that the value appraised will be the would have made the bill much better value of the land at the time it was first if he had eliminated from it the pro:vi­ taken up. The Minister says that the sion for rea'])praisement. We shaH find man takes up the heavily and the lightly some future Minister coming to Parlia­ infested land and returns only the ment and asking· for the right to amend thickly-infested part, and that the whole the Act so as to eliminate the right of of his holding ought to be reappraised the Crown to reappraise. The Crown. on the average value when he eliminates will not allow reappraisement now in portion of it. That means a man is to regard to transfers which.usually relate be made to pay more for a lesser area of land. He had 300 or 500 acres more to better land than this. · when he first took up the land .than he I believe the Minister could make this

will hold after his clearing- work i.s fin- bill a very satisfactory mpasure h;y1 -:3966 'Prickly-pear fAl:lSEMBLY.] (Amendment) Bill. eliminating these two- clauses~ He elim­ Captain DUf.TX: The land board' inated a portion of the clause which re­ would still have the power of selection. lated to sales by auction, and I do not The boards have that power in negard think that was nearly as. objectionable as to other lands of the State. the provision in regard to tenders. After Mr. BALL: Prickly-pear land must be a1l, a sale by auction is public. Every­ dealt with differently from other lands! body can go there to bid, and the pro­ Captain DUNX: I think the tender ceedings are conducted in the light of system is lad. It is always open to the day. When a man is bidding his com­ possibility of abuse, and abuses lllily. be petitors are there. But the tender suggested -oven when they are not there. system offers opportunities for ahuse, In thi~ case we seem to be pushing men and to me is more objectionable. At in order to get thee highest possible a sale ,bv auction the people· bid again~t price. When I was administering the each other, and whoever gets the land d€partment there were men who were has same idea as to what other people very much afraid they were not going think it is worth. A competition hy ten­ to get certain lands. There was one der though it may be honestly conducted, man, in particular, who had put in three does not giYe any tenderer the sligh:est years in impro;ving certa!n land which idea of what other people are offermg. he had taken over when nobody else Two or three men may· want the same would look at it. There were Bathurst piece of land. One man ~ay w.a~t it burrs on it so high that one eould badly, in oruer to make up hls additwnal not see a man on a horse. After he holding. He might be able to work the had eliminatoo them completely he was combined holding advantageously with afraid that other peo],}le would tender one plant. But there may be another for the land, and in order to get it he man close by, also wanting it, and the put in a higher price than it was worth. first applicant would have no idea as to In my opinion he paid £1 or £2 an what the other was prepared to give. acre more than he should have paid, This bein(l' so he might be led to put merely beeause he was so afraid of com­ in a tende~ that was really too high. petition. That may result under this Mr. NEss: On the other hand, they bill in connection with the prickly-pear might put their heads together I land. - Captain DUNN: I do not think they The Minister says the Commissioner would do that. They migltt do so if will be able to select the men who there was enough land for all of them, are to have these lands. But that d0€S and decide only to tender for certain not get over the fact that the tender areas. . system ·will force the successful man to Mr. BALI,: The system proposed in the pay what is proba:bly too high a price, bill will give the Commissioner the op­ if he is afraid of somebody else getting portunity of saying who shall have the the land. It would be a good thing if land. It is prickly-pear land, and con­ that prm·ision were eliminated, either in sideration must be given to the suit­ this Chamber or in the l"pper House. albility of the man who is going to work The department, or even the Co=is­ it, as well as to the price. sioner, could fix the value of the land, and the Commissioner could still select Captain DUNN: Surely the depart­ the man who was to get it. The Min­ ment could fix a fair value, which the ister should alter those two clauses, and Crown wants. Why should it wish to extract from the applicant the last penny thus give more assistance tq men who it can get, by putting these inen in com­ are taking llp the very worst areas in petition with one another. I£ a price the State. were fixed as being fair then applicants Mr. W. J. SCULLY (Namoi) [3.181: col).ld go to a ballot. I wish to endorse some of the remarks Mr. BALL: In that case anybody could of the hon. me~,Jor Mudgee. There inter the ballot I are two provisions in the bill with which · ·pificlily•pear [:Z·J 1\:I.\H., I !J;)Il.j ( Amemlm:cnt) Bill. 39-6i

I do not agree. I have fought strenu­ that the M:iniste:r ;md bi:o officers :He­ ousl,y to try to haYe them altered, and it trying to protect the interests of the is not yet too late for the :Minister to Crown, but we should remember that vre' at least reconsider the position. Even are dealing with prickly-pear l-ands~ since discussing the provision i~ regard which are an a~~solute menace to the. to the reappraisement clauses relating to State. When a man has spent the best a iJOlding of which a portion has been ,years of his life in battling; with this !Surrendered, I am more firmly convinced pest, and has cleared 2,000 or 3,000 that the bill will do an injustice to men acres, he may consider that he has. wbJ wish to surrender a heavily-infested battled long enough. If he relinquishes portion of their land. Last week I to the Crown the land whjch he cannot travelled on a holding of something like clear; the Crown says that the remai·!l­ 2,()()0 acres and met the man. who had ing portion must he reappraised. 'Io· that land. For a number of years the my mind that is moBt unfair. It is Hot ma11 bas ·worked very hard on the phtying the game to the settler who destruction of ;.ear. He has been takes up prickly-pear under adverse assisted to some extent by the Prickly­ conditions, for, besides battling with pear Commission, and he has· freed the pear, he has the ordinary seasonal the whole of the land from pear, conditions to contend with. It is a. with the exception of about 600 acres. case of the Crown asking for its pound That land runs down to a creek, and of flesh. The capital value has been. t]Je 600 acres is very heavily infested determined by the Appraisement Board. with pear. It is utterly beyond the set­ Therefore, "'hy should his land 'be reap~ tler to cope with it, and is a millstone praised if he relinquishes 500 or 6{)0 round his neck at the present time. He acres? The Crown says there is no has to battle against seasonal conditions intention to penalise him and that it and is not in a financial position to cope is only going to reappraise the land on with this particular 600 acres, nor does its original basis. If that is so, why he feel that he will be able to cope with the necessity for reappraisement? It it under any circumstances. I know is apparent that the desire of the Crown that he would be only too willing to is to see the remaining portion of the­ surrender that particular block to the land reappraised at a higher value. Fur­ Crown. His land was originally rup­ thermore, if the Cro"n is not satisfied pi:aised at £1 an acre, but two or three with the determination of the local land years ago there was a reappraisement, board it has the right to appeal to the when the capital value was reduced to Land Court in Sydney, thereby inflict­ about l2s. an acre. He does not desire ing a greater penalty on the man on the any furt.her reappraisement, but if he · land. Yet members of the Country surrenders the 600 acres, which are abso­ party go throughout the State saying lutely no use to him and with which it they are the friends of the man on the is beyond his means to cope, and the re­ land and that they want to assist tha mainder of his holding is reappraised,. struggling settler. .At the same time, improved and cleared as it is, I am sure by advocating such iniquitous clauses as the capital value will be higher than the this, they further penalise the man on original capital value placed upon it. the land. It is only members on the That is a concrete instance of the injus­ Opposition side of the House who from tice that is likely to be done. I have a time to time figllt the battle of those personal knowledge of the holdlnoo-s in settlers in the far-flung portions of the my electorate. I do not care how inti­ ·State. mate1y the Lands Department officials Mr. BALL: That is good political pro­ may know a particular ·holding from the paganda! theoretical point of view, I submit that Mr. W. J. SCULLY: Yes, and it is my :first-hand knowledge together wi~h the truth. That is "hy the Minister­ that of other hon. members of this does not like it. ~ome is much more ·valuable. I know Mr. BALL: It js not the truth! :3968 Prickly-pear [ASSEMBLY.] {Amendment). Bill!

Mr. W. J. SCULLY: I have •practical :Mr. SANDERS: Sometimes the city h€1s ,experience, which the hon. member has to pay for the ignorance of the country not. members! Mr. BALL: How does your practical Mr. W. J. •SCULLY: There is an­ a!lot (;ach would_have an equal chance. [~0 :MAR., 1930.) (Amendment) Bill. 3%9

:Every practical man will agree that the sent prickly-pear country that after all -only way of dealing with applications such country is almost useless, and that Queensland it is apparent more difficult. From the point of that as regards third and fourth class view of settlement that will be a detri­ land we can 1ook forward to the eradica­ ment. W-e are continually being told in tion of the pear in from ten to fifteen this House by bon. members who repre- years. The Act provides :ilia! leases of 11T. 3970 Western Lands (ASSEMBLY.]" (Amendment) Bill. fourth ·Class land can be granted up to the Minister leavtl to introduce this bill fifty years, but no prickly-pear lease has we shall have a repetition of the tragedy been granted for that time. I want that of 1901. The obJect of the bill is to. term reduced. extend the westem land leases. If the­ Question resolved in the affirmative. Minister had called for a report as to: Bill read a third time. the activit;}· or inactivity of those who· held those leases for a number of years. prior to 1901 he would have hesitated WESTERN LANDS (AMENDMENT) before introducing this measure. In to.­ BILL. day's Questions and Answers paper the Mr. BALL (Corowa) [3.49], moved: Minister has repliE.d to a series of ques­ That leave be given to bring in a bill to tions which I put to him with regard provide for the extension of the . t~r!11s ?f t.1 the western lands, and I ..suggest that. leases of land in the Western D1nswn m certain cases and upon certain conditions; before he goes on with the bill he should to provide for the surrender of freehold read my questions and the replies thereto. lands in certain cases; to protect the inter­ Question No. 6 of the series reads: ests of the Crown in the case of the with­ Will he give the areas held by thirty of drawal of areas from leases enhanced in the largest holdings, either individuals or­ value by the construction of public works; companies, separate and collective¥ and for these and other purposes to amend the Western Lands Act of 1901 and certain The answer to that question shows that other Acts; and for purposes connected no fewer than seven companies hold con­ therewitl1. siderably more than 1,000,000 acres each He said : The main object of the bill is ir.. the Western Division and that four­ to provide for an extension of the term of teen companies hold considerably ove1· western land leases. Such extensions 500,000 acres each. These companies. will be subject to the periodical with­ held that land for a number of years. drawal of portions of the area held by prior to 1901 and the argument adduced lessees for the purpose of providing land by the 1finister' to-day for the extension for settlement. In this regard special of those leases is the ·argument which provision will be made in respect of that was adduced for their extension for forty part of the Western Division within years prior to 1901. Prior to 1901 or bordering upon, the county of Finch, there were seven years of continuous in the land district of W algett. It drought in the Western Division, and is also proposed to make special provision in view of the invasion of rabbits and in regard to those lands in the Western t.he financial position of the settlers, the Division which will come within the in­ Government of the day appointed a fluence of the Wyangala Dam, and also Royal Commission to inquire into the best in respect of an area in connection with means of redeeming that area. The late which negotiations are now proceeding Mr. W. P. Crick, who was Minister for with a view to resumption. Provision Lands at the time, brought down a bill will also be made with a view to protect­ for the purpose of extending the western ing the Crown's interest in the event of leases for a further period of forty years resumption of areas which have become in order to give the lessees an oppor­ enhanced in value due to the construc­ tunity of making good. The argument tion of public works. Those are the put before the Royal Commission which main objects of the bill, but other amend­ sat in 1900 was that if the leases were ments which have been found to be neces­ extended the financial position of the sary will be included in order to bring settlers would be stabilised and they the existing law into line with the would be able to redeem themselves. changed conditions consequent upon the Prior to 1900 over 15,000,000 sheep were passage of the bill. running on the western lands area, lbut Mr. DAVIDSON (Murray) [3.50]: I at the end of the seven years drought have been waiting patiently for the Min­ there were only 5,500,000. Owing to the ister to move this motion, and I say advocacy of the great financial institu­ ~traightaway that if the House gives tions which had n grip on the "western W csfern Lands _[20 MAR., 193.0.] (Amendment} Bill.

l:cssees, Mr. Crick decided to extend their Mr. PoLLACK: They cannot be doing leases for forty years. What has been too well if in place of 15,000,000 sheep the result? The result has been . that they are running 5,500,000 sheep to~day! the western land lessees are not in a Mr. DAVIDSON: That is not the better position -to-day than they were fault of the country; it is due to bad then. As I pointed out, seven companies, management. each hold over 1,000,000 acres in the Mr. BAVIJ.r: Doe3 not the hon. membe;: \Yestem Division to-day, and no more think that these people want to make sheep are running on that country than money? were running on ;t thirty years ago. Mr. , DAVIDSON: Of course, they Mr. PoLJ,ACK: W-hat. are .the weather want to make money, but does not the conditions? Premier understand that if a company Mr. DAVlDSON: Much better. The holding over 1,000,000 acres of country rainfall has been better, modern methods employs only two or three men it can­ of transport have been introduced, and not run the samr number of sheep as. the price of wool has been better. ::>. man who has an area which he can Mr. BAVI"<: And the cost of production control. has doubled! Mr. BAVIN: Docs the hon. membe•· :hir. DAVIDSON: The cost of pro­ really think that men without financial duction in the pastoral industry in that resources sh mld be put on comparatively area has not doubled, because fewer men small areas of country such as is in have been cemployed. In the early days, the Western Division? on each of the stations 50,000 or 100,000 Mr. DAVIDSON: Since the war men. sheep were running, and as many as thirty who were put on small areas on the one­ stati'on hands were employed all the year eighth resumptio;Js in the Cobar dis­ round and eighty shearers during the trict have donG very well indeed.~ season. To-day the lessees are running But the big holdings are in -financial about 10,000 sheep on their respective difficulties all the time. I propose to. holdings and are employing two or three read the names of some of the institu­ men and a few shearers at shearing tions which are interested in this area .. time. That being so, the cost of pro­ The Australian Mercantile Land and duction in the Western Division has Finance Company holds 1,000,353 acres,. been considerably reduced. Australian Sheep Farms T-imited, Mr. BAVIN: What number of sheep 1,366,806 acres, and Bootra Pastoral did the hon. member say were running Company, 1,049,733 acres. on the holdings in the Western Division Mr. BALL: In what part of the western to-day? area are these holdings ? Mr. DAVIDSON: 5,500,000, whereas Mr. DAVIDSON: In the far nor­ on the same area of country 15,500,000 thern portion of it. Elsinora Limited were carried prior to 1901. holds 1,178,477 acres, Morden Proprie­ Mr. BALL: The lesser number of sheep tors Limited, 1,321,710 acres, the New being carried to-day is due to drought Zealand and Australian Land Company conditions! Limited, 1,262,337 acres, th'3 Y nncannia Pastoral Company,1,148,126acres and the Mr. DAVIDSON: Not altogether. Yandama Pastor11I Company, 1,114,711 Mr. BALL: They have just had a three acres. These are the companies which years' drought! have influenced the Minister in bringing 1fr. DAVIDSON: There will always forward this bill. They desire to obtain be periodic droughts in the Western · an extension of their leases for forty Division. The le~sees come along with years. the drought argument every time. If Mr. POLLACK: Any o£ those holdings the Minister extends the leases for an­ ·may not be worth 1,000 acres on the other forty ;years he will be robbing the coast! people of the back country of their birth­ Mr. DAVIDSON: They may not be !ight. worth 1,000 acres on the coast. But I -. '3~72 Western Lands (AS8E!IBLY.] (Amendment/Bill.

'there are men who have liveJ in that is absolutely correct. I have said suffi · country all tiieu li'ves, and wno are crent to convince any man who is anxious an.Xi·ously waiting to take up a portion to extend consideration to land settle­ of it with a view to making a living ment in the far west, that the bill should upon it. The passing of this bill will not be allowed to go beyond its present merelv mean further augmenting the stage. The answers to my questions upon numb~r of our unemployed. In 1901, the business paper to-day, are sufficient the lessees of this country were granted to justify any reasonable nian in voting an extension of their leases covering forty against it. years. They undertook to improve their Mr. PoLLACK: What is a living area in holdings during the term of their leases. th.e far west? Thirty years of that term have now ex­ Mr. D.A. VIDSON: In that country, a pired, and although they h.ave been pay­ living area must be calculated, just as it ing a rental of only !d. per acre: they is elsewhere, upon the carrying capacity have improved the land to the extent of of the land. less than H1. per acre. Within twelve years ~·h. PoLLACK: How many acres con­ of the termination of their leases, they stitute a living area there~ have the audacity to ask for a further Mr. DAVIDSON: The hon. member extension of forty years. I know that does not know how many acres con­ the financial institutions to which I have stitute a living area in his own elector­ referred, constitute the power behind this ate. bill. The other day I asked the Min­ Mr. PoLLACK: But how many acres ister whether it was not a fact that a constitute a living area in the far west 3 deputation representing these large les­ Mr. D.A. VIDSON: There is a dif­ sees had waited upon him with a request ference in the carrying capacity of the that this measure should be introduced, land in various parts of the western dis­ and if it was not also a fact that they trict. Certainly 1,500,000 acres is more had formed a committee which was sit­ than a living area. ting in Sydney, and which desired cer­ Mr. ARKINS: ,What is the minimum? tain amendments in the Western Lands Mr. DAVIDSON: In one part it may Act with a view to securing extended be 10,000, acres, whilst farther out it leases. I further asked the hon. gentle­ may be 120.000 acres. There is country man whether this bill had not been sub­ in which 12'0;000 acres would not con­ mitted to these people before it was stitute a living area, but close to ,w algett presented to this House. North, there is just as good country as is Mr. W AL~ISLEY: And he denied that~ to be found in the Central Division. :Mr. DAVIDSON: He denied it, but 'Vhat is required in the Western Divi­ only yesterday I received a long wire sion is a general re-survey of the whole from the president of the West Darling of the area, a general reclas5i£cation of Pastoralists' Association, which I shall it, and further subdivision. But these probably read at a later stage, asking things cannot be very well undertaken me to support the bill and pra;ctically until the termination of the leases in telling me the previsions it contains. 1943'. Mr. PoLLACK: llow much did he pay Mr. BALL: In most cases, the leases for the wire~ do not terminate till six years later. Mr. DAVIDSON: He must have paid Mr. DAVIDSON: The bulk expire in 5s. or 6s. for it. '43. These lessees entered into a contract Mr. BALL: Perhaps the hon. member ·in 1901. If this bill is passed it will had better wait and see whether the be a repudiation of a contract between provisions of the biU accord with his the people and the Crown. telegram, before making further state- . Prior to 1884 the pastoralists in the ments such as he has made! far western portion of the State were . Mr. :O.A. VIDSON: Upon the motion doing very well notwithstanding that for the second. reading of the bill I will they were paying about 20 per cent. E'ubmit the wire to prove that what I say higher rent than they have been paying· lrest em Lands '(Amendment) Bill. 3873

since the 1901 Act came into operation. area. The Government provided that Owing to their extravagance during that the W algett north portion, which is the time, their forgetting that they could not best portion, should be resumed provid­ always· have good seasons and low rent ing that the Government could find the and their inability to foresee the seven money to pay compensation. years drought, they got into difficulties, Mr. BALL : We always had the power· to and as-they had borrowed lavishly £r~~ resume! the big financial institutions more than Mr. DAVIDSON: Yes, but you never eighty of the holdings were abandoned. did resume. You always had power to Then there came the rabbit pest. Prior resume under the one-eighth provision, to 1884 there were no rabbits in that but that has been exhausted. What I country. What with the drought, the say is that the Act was amended in 1918 rabbit pest, and the borrowing of money, to give the Government power to resume the lessees had to abandon between the W algett North portion. eighty or ninety holdings. Those who Mr. PoLLACK: That was in February, had borrowed from the big financial in­ 1927, and the Labour Government was situations like Goldsbrough, Mort and in office until October! Company, Dalgety and Company, and Mr. DAVIDSON: It was in 1918, and the New Zealand Loan and Mercantile from then until now there has been no Agency Company, influenced the Govern­ portion of that Walgett North territory ment to extend the leases for another resumed. The inflated values on the forty years. unexpired portions of the leases made it An lioN. MK~iBER: :Mr. Crick! impossible to resume for closer settle­ Mr. DAVIDSON: Prior to this Mr. ment. Orick, then Minister for Lands, appointed In 1922 the then Minister for Lands, a Parliamentary Commission, and the Mr. W earne, had a meeting at W algett evidence it took is available. Even that of the W algett North lessees, the .object Commission appointed so long back being to come to some agreement respect­ pointed out the necessity for a re-classi­ ing resumption. The outcome of that fication of the whole of the western lands meeting was that a value of 15s.· per acre area, The Western Land Board cannot was placed on the land. That showed now resume under the one-eighth section conclusively that the lessees had no de­ any more land for closer settlement, but sire to allow that land to be resumed at it can under section 44 of the 1927 Act anything like a fair and reasonable valu­ passed by the Labour Government. That ation. When Mr. Loughlin was Minister Government amended the Western Lands for Lands in 1926 be placed £100,000 on Act because we knew that closer settle­ the Estimates for resumptions in the ment could not proceed in the west unleg.; western district, and when the pre~ent the Act was amended. We provided that :Ministry came into office it wiped: that the Western Land Board could resume· vote off the Estimates, showing conclu­ all or any part of the western lands area, sively that it had no intention of providing, of course, that the Govern­ resuming. When the Linilla Estate, in ment was prepared to find the money to the vV algett district, was valued :for pro- . compensate the then lessees for improve­ bate the value was fixed at lOs. an a.cre, ments and for the unexpired portion of but when Mr. Loughlin wanted to· r\7 their leases. sume it from the executors they asked Mr. PoLLACK: Have there been any 25s. an acre. That showed they 'h'ad no resumptions under that provision~ intention of allowing it to be rtidumed. Mr. DAVIDSON: No, because this Under the amending Act passed by the Government refused to find the money Labour Government in 1927 we· :gave for compensation. That was all that was power to the Western Land Board to· necessary for this Government to do. The resume any portion if the Government Government in 1918 saw the necessity could find money with which to pay. com· :for amending the Western Lands Act so pensation. There was a provision that as to extend closer settlement in this if an agreement ·as to the value could not Western Lands (ASSEMBLY.] (Amendment) Bill.

be arrived at between the board and the persons holding &hares in these com• lessees the .dispute was to be referred to panies are absentees; they do not even the Land and Valuation Court. N oth- live in Australia. ing has been done and nothing will be !1:r. PoLT,ACK: You would not ask done to give effect to that amendment. them to live out in the far west~ !1:r. PoLLACIC Nothing more than Mr. . Mr. DAVIDSON: Whom does the llon~ ·member want to live out there~ Lougt~1n did! Somebody has to, and, as I have shown, Mr. DAVIDSON: He made an effort there are thousands of men who· are t<> put the Act into force by placing a · prepared to live 0 ut there. The only s11m of money on the Estimates, but way to put that land to its best use is bcfol'e he could do anything more he to give people srr.aller holdings which went out of office. Then the present they can look after properly and put Government came into office and wiped to their full productive use. that £100,000 off the Estimates. Mr. BALL: A good many people there The House ought to vote against the to-day are l!n holdings that are too small first reading of the bill so as to prevent already! it from going any further. I know Mr. DAVIDSON: I admit that some -there is a large majority of National of them are. The whole area needs re­ party and ·Country party members in the classifying. The answer to my question 'House who do not understand the far- on the business paper to-day, as to what western conditions and do not know what areas are held under permissive occu­ has happened since 1901. If they were pancy or license, is as follows: "Permis­ to read the report of the Committee tha'; sive occupancy, 386,9'75 acres; occupa­ ··sat in 1900 and to make themselves con·· tion license, 569,412 acres; preferential versant with the conditions out there I occupation license, 82,487." That land am quite sure they would not vote for is distributE:;d in mch a way that it is this bill. The least the .Government impossible for the Western Land Board · ought to do is to appoint an independent to deal with it. Some of it is in areas ·commission to make a general inquiry which are too small, but it adjoins large into the whole of the conditions prevail- holdings, the owners of which can obtain ing in . the west. The Minister knows it under permissive occupancy or license. ·that right throughout the length and People are hungry for that land and ·breadth of the western lands area and in cannot get it, whi1e the Western Land ·some parts of the Central Division also Board, as at preseJtt constituted, is pow­ -public meetings arc being held at which erless to do anyt!ri.ng-unless the Gov­ ·strong resolutions are being carried crnment is preparE.d to find the money against the passing of this bill. There to compensate th0 holders and let the nave been over 1,000 unsuccessful ap- board resume the land. I am not alto­ -plicants for land in the ·western Divi- gether in favour of that. sion. Mr. PoLLACK: In the case of preferen- Mr. PoLLACK: The hon. member does tial occupation lic':'nses· the Government not know whether they were bona fide, of would not have to pay for resumption! course! Mr. DAVIDSON: I know that, but I

Mr. DAVIDSON: N 0 more than I nm pointing out that the land is so know whether the hon. member is bona situated as to be absolutely useless ex­ fide. There is no need for him to ca t cept to those who now hold it under . . h f 5 occupation license. That is one of my re fl ec twns upon men In t e ar west reasons for saying that when these who apply for these areas and try to leases expire the whole area should be make the best 1B<' of them. They are reclassified, and subdivided in such a men we should .r.CEWaJqett North there is a these leases have ever lived there. The : .vast nrea of the finest grazing country Western Lands (Amendment} Bill. 3975

in the State. That should be classified been neg-lected, the reason being that tlie .differently from ..:ouutry on the South vote there ·:s not large enough for the Australian border. People should pay purpose of electing Governments. Tho for the laud according to its use-valut. revenue received from lands in the 'Vest­ mid it should be s;1bdivided in substan­ ern Division last year amounted to tial home maintcwmce areas. At Bal­ £119,680. If the Government has the ranald there is very good country, and interests of that vast area at heart and .so there is about Brewarrina and wishes to make it habitable for a larger Bourke; but out at }.filparinka and Ti­ population the whole of that money, with hooburra the land is almost useless. the excepti~n of what is required for Mr. Anr.:lNS: \Vith regard to these administrative purposes-an amount of companies which have large holdings, £15,489-should be spent on encourag· the hon. member ~ays that where they ing settlement there. · miginally had.15,n ..;o,ooo sheep they now 11fr. BALL: It is a very ~poor return. bave only 5,000,000. Apparently they from 8{) million acres! :are losing money i }.fr. DAVIDSON: That is becau;;e of Mr. DAVIDSON: The properties the large areas and the low rents. I have been neglected. In the early days can supply hon. members with the names there were 15,500,000 sheep in the of the companies that control thirty Western Division. holdings of over 1,000,000 acre3 in that Mr. ARI.:rNs: There should be more part of the State. So long as the areas to-day! urc so large it will be impo:osib!e to put }.fr. DAVIDSON: Certainly there them to their best usc. should, and there• would be more if :Wir. PoLLACK: \Vill not that be made the whole aTea we:·:e properly subdivided easier as the result of what the present and adminisr.ered. It has never recovered Government has done to place that part from the soYen years' drought. The Act of the· State within the jurisdiction of

11Ir. DAVIDSON: It has done its work those men will make good. If sudr men fL' well as the Act permitted it to do. If can do well in that part of the State there is any blame for the lack of pro­ others can do well there. All th'ey rB<­ gress in the far ·western districts it is quire is Australian energy and ability, on the shoulders of past Governments. and the western men have both. It is 11seless to tinker with the Western Mr. PoLLACK: They want hard cash,. Division. The settlement of the western too! districts is a big question and requires Mr. DAVIDSON: They are the men man-size action. The whole area wants who will make a "do" on that land. recasting. It should be resurveyed and resubdivided. It should be put on a Mr. HORSING TON (Sturt) [ 4.37]: different basis and there should be less I was not in the House when the Minis­ centralisation. ter moved for leave to introduce the bill, and therefore I did not hear his­ Mr. PoLLACK: "\Vas not that made pos­ explanation. I gather from the speech sible by the right of conversion given in of the hon. member for Murray that tl1e­ 1927, when the hon. member's Gvvern­ :Minister must have clearly indicated ment was in power? that he intended to extend the terms ,Jf Mr. DAVIDSO~: No. These leases the leases in the Western Division. expire in 1943, when the Government Mr. BALL: Under certain conditions! can do what it chooses with them. My Mr. HORSINGTON: I do not lmo-.v contention is that the whole area what the conditions are. requires reclassification and further subdivision. As regards settlement in Mr. BALL: The bill shows what th('Y the \Vestern Division, preference should are, and the hon. member can see it be given to men who have held leases and later! improved the ,land up to substantial Mr. HORSINGTOX: I desire to em­ maintenance areas. ·when the residue • phasise tl:at land settlement in the West­ has been reclassified, it should be maJe ern Division requires to be put on a available for further settlement. There sound basis. Settlers in that part of the are thousands of men in the far western State were granted blocks which were districts who have waited for years to considered to be living areas by the obtain leases. There are men in the Western Land Board. There are a Bourke, Brewanina, Cobar, and other number of smail settlers who did we:} western districts who badly want land for a number of years, but it is apparent in the Western Division. that living areas there must have been Mr. ARKL'

. Mr. HORSINGTON: Let us assuma Mr. HORSINGTON: I say again he that it is only 1,000,000 acres, although pulled the wire out of the fences, sent it is considerably more. Is it proposed it by bullock team to Bourke, and sold to grant Goldsbrough, Mort & Company it. an extension of their lease for thirty or Mr. BALL: The hon. member had to forty years~ Is it intended to extend apologise to the Western Land Board! the leases of Sir Sidney Kidman and Mr. HORSINGTON: I never apolo­ other large holders of western lands~ It gised to the W eatern Land Board. has been stated in the press from time Mr. PoLLACK: What did you do when to time that wherever in the Western you were Minister for Lands~ Division there is a station employing Mr. HORSINGTON: I want to be twenty or thirty men, Sir Sydney Kid­ fair to the board. The board was a little man comes along and buys it out, that concerned over the last statement I made he immediately removes the stock upon and asked me stra~ght out if I said that it to Adelaide, where it is sold, and thl'.t the board was di5honest: I was not the station hands are then replaced by a altogether prepar.::d to say it was dis­ caretaker. honest. But I sll.y this, and it can be Mr. PoLLACK: Does he not effect the proved, that what I have said did hap­ improvements required under the terllli> pen. I challenge the Minister even now of his lease~ to find out if it was not so. He has all the resources of the State at his com­ Mr. HORSINGTON: I !heard it stated mand. I say that ,-,ire was taken out of to-day that the Western Land Board the fences-- has done all that it possibly could in Major SHAND: \Vhy did you not take regard to enforcing the conditions at­ action when you were Minister for taching to leases in the Western Divi­ I.ands? Did the- Western Land Board sion. I say emphatically that it has know of it? not compelled the big .le!>sees to com­ l\fr. HORSINGTON: Whether the ply with the terms of ~heir leases. \Vestern Land Bonrd knew of it, it was One of the covenants of their leases done. is that they must keep all improve­ Mr. NEss: What was the good of the ments in a reasonable state of repair. wire when they pnlled it out? _ Ask any man who has been in the West­ :Mr. HORSINGTON: It was sold. It ern Division ab0ut what Kidman has i" a well-known fact throughout the done. Ask if he has kept the improve­ ·west, and I think the :Minister for Lands ments that were on his leases in reason­ knows it, and Kidman is the greatest able repair. He will tell you, "No, offender in this r•;gard. certainly not''; but when the war was Mr. NEss: Is not Kidman using the on and galvanised-iron and fencing wire land? Has he not stock on it? were bringing very high prices he pulled Mr. HORSINGTON: No; he is using the wire out of s )llle of his fences and Rent it to Bourk-.: and sold it. · He some of it. Bu~ because a man has a large area of la:1d and is using some allowed the tanks to silt up, the wells of it is no 1·eason why he should get an to fall in; in fact. he allowed the whole extension. place to go to rack and ruin. Mr. NESS: Th0 hon. member cannot Ail Hox. MEMBER: Does the Western make this House believe that a man Land Board know that? takes up a large tract of land merely Mr. HORSING TON: The chairman to look at when ~,,. has money to stock it! of the board was sitting behind the Mr. HORSING'J'ON: I say he is not Speaker's chair on one occasion when working it to the best advantage or to I made the statem

- charge to inake ! work the bnd ! ' · > 3;)81) Western Landf! (ASSEMBLY.J (Amendment} Bill.

Mr. HOHSINC'-tTON: Despite the should like to sea the Roto seftlers do limited area of l;t;!d that the board has well, but I do not think they will have made nvailnble under the one-eighth re­ a chance. sumption of the o:!ginallease the settle­ I :un sorrY the Minister has not given ment on th(•Se lea;;es has been the most us any irullca±ion of what he intends mccessful in New South Wales. to do. Some time ago he made a state• An RoN. MEMBER: There have been ment to the press that he intended to extend the leases. 'Wben he was taxed failures! about that with a question in this House !fr. HORSING TON: There have been he denied it. He made two different failures, but there are failures every­ statements. Further than that, there where. The besi; type of man in the hnve been certain strange circumstances world, even if he has reasonable capital, in connection w:th the proposal to if he ·strikes a drou~ht to start with amend the Western. Lands Act. I have he must farl. That is what happened here an article that appeared in The to some of the se1;tlers. But those who Land. That is mt a Labour paper. The have had a few good years to build up article refer::; to a secret deputation to on are amongst the most successful set­ the 1\finistcr. tlers in New SoutL Wales, and the Gov­ Mr. BALL: The ]tOn. member knows it emment has not been asked to find was not a ~ecret d~.::putation. He kn()WS money to finance them. I admit that a that as a matter of fact he was invited numb.er of them a;·e in a bad way to-day, there! but so are number~ of settlers all over :Mr. HOUSINGTON: It was not a Australia. As far as the west is con­ . deputation <.hat I i'as invited to. cerned to-day, I do not think any group of settlers nas bec>n thr_pugh a more try­ Mr. BALL: The hon. member was in­ vited to a ,~cnferE>ttee I ing time tha~1 they have during the past few years. Mr. HOHSINGTON: That is not a deputation. 1 was invited to a confer­ Mr. NEss: The Federal Government ence, but the reference in this paper is is asking farmere. to grow more wheat to a deputation. · The Minist;:,r met a w·hen they cannot. get a payable price deputation consistiug of a number of for it! big pastoralists, and I knew nothing Mr. HORSING TON: I am speaking about it. The cc.Tference was another o£ wool. In the Western Division wheat­ thing altogether. This is what appears growing is out of the question, although in The La•

Mr. HORSINGTON: Does the Min­ fact that some people say they could ister deny it? not live out there, there are hundreds Mr. BALL: I do deny it! who would not live in Sydney. I was at Mr. HORSINGTON: Every time a a f11:nction at Wilcannia, where a pro­ statement is made in any paper concern· minent and successful business man, ing the administration of a Minister of speaking on decentralisation, said he the Crown his departmental officers clip would rather die· in Wilcannia than live it out, paste it on a sheet of paper and in •Sydney. Many -people would be glad put it on his desk. The Minister saw to get blocks of land in the west to that statement in The Land; did he deny settle upon. it? These leases do not expire till 1943, Mr. BALL: I do not remember seeing and some have even longer to run. Where it! is the necessity, thirteen years before Mr. DAVIDSON: These big pastoralists the time, to grant these people an ex­ who were supposed to be on the secret tension? It is all very well to say that ·deputation went back to the west and if they are given greater security of said, ''It is practically :fixed; we are tenure they will carry out improve­ going to get an extension." ments. The answer to that is that they 1vlr. BALL: The conference I referred have had these leases for forty years, to was after that deputation. All in­ and what improvements have they car­ terested parties were invited to it! ried out? Mr. HORSll~GTON: J have not said Mr. PoLLACK: Some of the improve­ anything about a conference; I am talk­ ments have been covered by the drift­ ing about this deputation. ing sand! ·~fr. BALL: Any deputation that waited llfr. HORSINGTON: That will go on me prior to that was invited to a on for ever. •If improvements are ne­ conference, where the members could all glected they will be covered up. In meet together and put up the best case most cases it is neglect on the part of they could. As representatives I invited these big pastoralists that has allowed the hon. member and the hon. member that sort of thing to happen. for Murray also to that conference, but Mr. ARKINS: Does the hon. member neither of them turned up. believe that? Mr. DAVIDSON: That is the deputation Mr. HORSINGTON: I do, and the the Minister invited me to after he had hon. member would believe it if he guaranteed to give these people what understood. It will be a crying shame they wanted! on this Government if it extends these J\iir. BALL: That is not true! leases for the benefit of big absentee Mr. HORSINGTON: The Minister shareholders. We are suffering froni made the statement that he was going financial depression, and there is· only to extend the leases for a further forty one thing that will put the State on years, but in his statement to the Sydney its feet-that is a proper system of land press on Friday, 7th February, he said, settlement. All the land is being grab­ "I can assure the hon. member that no bed up by a few landholders, not only such statement was made." He also in the west, but in the Central Division explained about the resolutions passed also. One man holds 97,000 acres on at a meeting at .W algett. He said he the Lachlan River at Condobolin. While never made the statement that he was that sort of thing is allowed to go on, going to extend the leases. My point is and people are forced into the city, how that if the Minister has the interest .of can the country be expected to prosper? the State at heart he can bring about Mr. ARKINS : If the hon. member had genuine land settlement in the Western £50,000 would he invest it out in the Division at very little cost to the Crown. west? He can relieve the western towns of Mr. HORSINGTON: Yes. their land-locked condition. He can popu­ Mr. DtJNNINGHAlli: What is a living late the western country. ·Despite the area out there~ • iJ ~--" :" __ . 3982 Western Lands · '[ASSEMBLY.] ( A'mendment) Bill.

· ·:Mr. HORSINGTON: It is based upon consideration. The bill js· a. very impor­ what the land will produce. A living tant one, affecting as. it doee the life of area with high-priced wool is not a liv­ the Western Division. ing area with low-priced wool. The sea­ Captain DUNN (Mudgee) [5.22] : sons, too, have to be taken into considera­ There is no doubt that the introduction tion before a Jiving area can be fixed. of this bill is the result of propaganda There is one other point. The Minister by interested parties-propaganda that made a statement-I think it was at has been apparent whenever there .has the conference he has mentioned-that· been a drought in the Western Division, after he had introduced the bill he would when the settlers have been in a serious give every party interested full oppor­ financial position, and when they might tunity of thoroughly considering it. Is be rescued only by a lengthened term of that so? lease. At such times those persons are Mr. BALL: No. What I said was that I usually willing to promise to endeavour would listen to any representatives, but to effect improvements on their propp.r­ I was not prepared at that stage to say ties, and something of the kind has exactl3' what was in the bill, and I have probably been done on this occasion. not done so! Apparently they have told the Minister that they will guarantee to improve their Mr. HOHSINGTON: The Minister lands. There are i,054 big holdings in said that after the bill had passed its the western land district, which have first-reading stage ·he would g·ive ~~.ll averaged in improvements during the parties interested an opportunity of con­ last twenty or twenty-five years about sidering its provisions before he pro­ 3d. per acre. Anyone who knows any­ ceeded with his second-reading speech. thing about the Western Division must Mr. BALL: I admit tliat. My desire recognise that land settlement there has is to get the bill to the second-reading been neglected. stage as soon as possible! Mr. PoLLACK: Does the figure quoted Mr. HORSINGTON: The difficulty by the hon. member represent the actual is that hon. members do not know what value of improvements, or their cost? 1 the bill contains. The graziers of the 0aptain DU!l\TN: The cost in twenty­ Western Division who are very interested five years. Landholders anywhere in in the measure have passed resolutions the State-in the coastal and central in support of an amendment of the law. · districts, in the irrigation area, or in One resolution, moved by Mr. A. Cross­ the west, who do not improve their ing, of Menindie, and seconded by Mr. holdings are bound to meet with dis­ J, R. Kelly, of Cobar, reads as foilows :- aster. The Western Division lands have been neglected. There has been no That this meeting of western land les3ees urges the Government immediately to amend serious attempt' to make that district the Western Lands Act to provide for the which comprises two-fifths of the State, immediate surrender of all western land more suitable for settlement. Can we leases and the issue in lieu thereof of Rew afford to allow such a large area to con­ leases for a period of forty·two years from tinue to be sparsely occupied as it has date of amendment of such Act; such new been for years. There are no Crown leases to be liable to resumption of one lands worth mentioning available for set­ eighth in ten years and a further otte·eigllth in fifteen years from date of issne; resump­ tlement in any other part of the State. tion not to apply to holders of less than Mr. DuNNINGHAM: Would there be a an adequate living area; where practicable demand for this Western Division land the remaining portion of lands to be a if it were thrown open for settlement~ continuous area and include the land on Is it sufficiently attractive~ which the homestead improvements are situ· Captain DUNN: Yes, it is in certain ated and can be economically worked. areas. · West of Bourke the land should Before entertaining the suggestion con­ only be occupied in big areas of not tained in that resolution, I hope the less than 200,000 acres. There is a large Minister will give the .matter serious area of the Western Division adjoining West em Lands {20 MAR., 1030.] (Amendment) Bill. 3983.

the Central Division where the land !u~d !fr. PoLLACI~: Did not the hon. mem­ the climate are almost as good as they ber a,mend the Western Lands Act in are in the Central Division. Virtually 1927? there is no Crown land available for Captain DUNN: I did, for the pur­ ,settlement in any other part of the State. pose of making it possible for the .State Mr. W AL)fSLEY: Why has not some to resume these lands if it desired. of the Western Division land been re­ !fr. PoLLACK: And that bill gave the sumed by the Government. right of conversion! Captain DUNN: Possibly because of Captain DUNN: It g·ave the right of want of money. The fact is that there conversion of agricultural areas on is practically no Crown land available the Benanee settlement only, in order for settlement except in the Western that wheat-growing might 1be encour­ Division. aged. The amendments made by that bill Mr. BALL: And that is not available! were not nearly so important as the Captain DUNN: It will not be avail­ amendments which are being made by able if we tie it up for a further period -this measure, which, if passed, will tie up of years. the whole of the available Crown lands of Mr. BALL: The present leases do not the State for a long period. There is fall in for thirteen years! no need for haste. The western leases. Captain DUNN: No tme is more have virtually twenty years yet to run. kindly disposed to the man on the land This is a dying Parliament, and it than I am and especially do I refer to should not tie the hands of future Par­ the men in the Western Division. But liaments, which ought to have the right most of these leases have more than to say how the \Vestern Division shall thirteen years to run. Under certain be dealt· with when the existing leases. conditions the bulk of them have twenty terminate. I am not questioning what .years to run. Is there need for Parlia­ is in the bill, but I am questioning the ment, because of ·propaganda during one wisdom of this Parliament tackling the of the worst period.s through which the problem. State has passed, to barter away what Mr. NESS : Your leader said in his is the State's asset under conditions policy speech that he would resume the which are not very satisfactory to the whole of the Western 'Division! State and which certainly will not be Captain DUNN: He did not. He satisfactory to the land-seeker? said he would not extend the leases. Mr. BALI,: The extensions are subject Althoug1h they have held those leases for to certain conditions. Let the hon. twenty-five years I venture to say that member wait until he sees the bill! the improvements effected by the les­ Captain DUNN: This is the most sees during that period do not total important bill introduced into Parlia­ more than 3d. an acre. Two-fifths cJ ment since the d.!Jys of the late W. P. the area of this State is coniprised in Crick and many people are afraid that the \Vestern Division. Of 80,000,000 it may follow on the lines of his Act. acres only about 3,000,000 acres have The Minister should have given hon. been· alienated. The other 77,000,000 members a proper outline of the bill. acres belong to the State and could b~ Mr. BALL: I did not want to have to made available for settlement, but we make two second~reading speeches! cannot settle 77,000,000 acres in a year. Captain DUNN: I understand that, Mr. POLLACK: The hon. memiber par­ but the Minister could have outlined the poses that the whole of the western cardinal principles of the measure. It leases should fall in to the Crown in would have been fair of him to have 1943! outlined its salient points: It is not Oaptain DUNN: The hon. member is necessary to go into detail, but it is trying to ·put words into my mouth_ necessary to give some of the cardinal Seeing that the western leases have features of an important bill of this from thirteen to twenty ;rears to run, Character - - . ~ , 1 there is no need for this legislation nmY. 3984 Western Lands {ASSEMBLY.] (Amendment) Bill.

The existing Act gives the Grown the made available for settlement there would Tight to resume, and as the years go by ,be thousands of applicants for every liv­ ':the Western Division can be resumed ing area. Those who hold it to-day very cheaply. Most of the land is not are paying for it an average rental of .worth more than 2s. 6d. an acre fbr ~he only about ~d. ;per acre, whereas for the :balance of the term, and as the years 15,000,000 or 16,000,000 acres of similar go by it will be worth less and less. ~\..s country in the Central Division the aver­ I said, 77,000,000 acres cannot be settled age rental ;s approximately 7d. per acre . .at once. It will have to be settled grad­ Yet this l!md is of equal value. In most ually, and, in my opinion, 2,000,000 cases its holders possess a great deal .acres a year would be EmQ_ugh to tackle. more than a living area. It is true In the last five years l: question if modt that they have not the right to retain -of the land in the Western Division will it, but they ought to have a right to be worth more than ls. an acre. When convert a living area. The balance of that land was finally available there this land, compnsmg 12,000,000 or would be no objection to givin:g a sub­ 14,000,000 acres, is well adapted for 'Stantial living area to the origiml closer settlement. I am firmly of opinion lessees. that this huge area adjoining the Cen­ Mr. PoLLACK: They have that right tral Division ought to be reclassified. now! Indeed, the whole .:>£ the lands comprised Captain DUNN: They have not. That in the Western Division should be re­ Tight, however, should only be given the classified. ·original lessees or to those who have Mr. KILPATRICK: That would be repu­ been settled in the Western Division for diation! a period of years. All that the western Captain DUNN: It would not. The lessees hold over and above a living area present holders of this land had leases should be made gradually available granted to them extending over forty­ ·for settlement. The men who have three years. But the State is getting served their apprenticeship in the West­ nothing out of this area, which is not €rn Division-I think there are 670 of nearly as valuable as it was thirty years them-who have less than a living area ago. Qught to be given a living area at the Mr. PoLLACK: It is getting a lot of termination of their leases or now, if wool off it! the Minister .likes to resume. To-day Captain DUNN: . There are only the State is only receiving revenue 5,500,000 sheep upon it, and there are amounting to £112,000 in respect d 47,000,000 sheep in the rest of the lands comprising two-fifths of the area State. This particular area used to sup­ Qf the State. It works out at something port 15,000,000 sheep. It will be seen, under H. an acre. As an ex-Minister therefore, that the State is not getting for Lands, who has had some experience very much out of it. Just now the of looking for Crown lands, I say that holders of lands in thEtWestern Division the Western Division is the cnly part of are entitled to consideration to which New South Wales where any substantial they would not have been entitled had .area of Crown lands can be made avail­ the seasons been good. But I submit .aible. There are at least 12,000,000 acres that men anxious to settle should not adjoining the Central Division where the be excluded from country in that country is just as good as the country in division which is just as good as the Central Division and the rainfall is land in the Central Division. There nearly the same. The annual rainfall is room for thousands of settlers for the Central Division is about 1n there. I am not advocating any inches, and it is 16 inches over the revolutionary scheme of land settle­ :area to which I am referring. A lot of ment, but I' am stressing the right of fhis land .po~:>sesse8 a river frontage, ~nd people who are anxious to obtain land most of 1t should never have been in­ and who are qualified to go upon it, to cluded in theWestern Division. If it were be afforde~ an O_l)portunity to do so. Western Lands [20 MAR., Hl30.] ! (Amendment) Bill. 3985

.b..t the same time, I do not desire to who have expert knowledge to decide that nafl.ict injustice upon those who have matter. There is no need to hurry, there ·.done the pioneering work there. After is plenty of time to deal with this land. ·deducting from the Western Division This is a dying Parliament. Is it fair· the 15,000,000 acres adjoining the Cen­ that it should tie up two-fifths of the tral Division of which I have spoken, 'State~ It would be fair to set the there still remain 65,000,000 acres, which machinery in motion which would deter­ .should be dealt with in an entirely mine the conditions under which this or .different manner. This land should be any succeeding Government shciuld make leased in bigger &reas and at a cheaper .available this enormous are~l' of land. J'ental. Surely the present is an oppor­ There is still in existence the report of tune time for the Government to appoint a commission that went thoroughly into :a Royal Commission to review the whole this matter. Mr. Crick, one of the ablest o0f the conditions attaching to settlement· men who ever held the portfolio of L:>.nds, in. this area. We have plenty of time did not solve the western land problem in which to legislate for lands in the very well. Probablu '' it will never 'be 'Vestern Division. We have thirteen solved. The conditions are ever chang­ years in which to legislate, and, in somo ing. An area that had 15,000,000 sheep instances, we have nineteen years. There­ on it thirty ye~1,'8 ago has probaJbly fore the Minister should not act hastily. 5,000,00{} now arid the improvements Let him appoint a commission which made yeari; ago have been dissipated. may consist of two or three or, if neces­ There are not many men who.have made .sary, even one competent person to report much money out of the western lands . to this House a couple of years hence. Mr. BALL: There has been a lot of Let the Government be •bound by the ad­ money made out of the Western Divi­ vice of that commission as to area and sion! ~onditions so that justice may ibe done Captain DUNN: Prohably some men to the pioneers already there. The ques­ have made money, but in drought times tion is surely big enough to justify such men with half a million sheep lost as many .a course. . Let there be a far-seeing as 400,000. While the Western Division rboard, consisting of men who have no may have supported a good many men, party interests to serve, but whose only who got out at the right time, it has desire is to do justice to the settlers al­ 'broken a good many. Let us not re­ l'eady there and to intending settlers. In tard land settlement in the future by .connection with ordinary Crown lands tying the hands of the incoming Par­ this House does not say what is to be liament, but let there be an exhaustive done down to the smallest details. The inquiry. , \ experienced officers of the Lands Depart­ ment report to the l\finister as to the Mr. THORBY: I move: terms and conditions to be adopted. This That the question be now put. House ought not to pass a bil

Pollack, A. J. Vincent, R. .S. Horsington, E. M. Olde, B. C. Rei.J., A. A. E. E. V. Walmsley, B. C. Keegan, T. Quirk, J. Reid, Major W earne, W. E. Kelly, C. A. Scully, W. J. Sanders, E. L. Weaver, R. VIr. D. Knight, H. Shannon, T. J. Shand, Major Lamaro, J. Smith, J. E. Stevens, B. S. B. Tellers, Lang, J. T. Stanley, F. Thor by, H. V. C. Dunningham, J. M. Lazzarini, C. C. Tonge, A. Tresidder, E. P. Lloyd, Brigadier-Gen. Lysaght, A. A. Tully, J. M. NoEs. MeDicken, H. J. Tellers, McGirr, James O'Sullivan, M. Baddeley, J. M. Lamaro, J. McKell, W. J. Ratcliffe, W. J. Booth, G. Lang, J. T. Burke, Frank Lazzarini, C. C. Question so resolved in the affirmative-. Burke, Michael Lysaght, A. A. Bill presented, and read a first time. Butler, W. J. McDi~ken, H. J. Cahill, J. J. McGirr,, James Motion (by Mr. Ball) proposed: Cameron, R. McKell, W. J. That the bill be printed and the aeconil Connell, H. J. Olde, B. C. reading stand an order of the day for to-- Connolly, P. . O'Sullivan, M. morrow. Davidson, M.A. Quirk, J. Davies, W. Ratcliffe, W. J. Question put. The House divided~ Dunn, Captain· Scully, W. J. Ayes, 41; noes, 35; majority, 6.. Ely, W. T. Smith, J. E. AYES. Flannery, M. M. Stanley, F. Gosling, M. Tonge, A. Anderson, D. M. Kilpatrick, M. Hoad, K. 0. Tully, J. M. Arkins, J. G. D. Lee, J. R. Horsington; E. M. Tellers, Arthur, Dr. R. Lloyd, Brigadier-Gen.. Keegan, J'. Knight, H. Ball, R. T. Main, H. Kelly, C. A. Shannon, T. J. Bate, H. J .. Marks, E. S. Bavin, T. R. Missingham, W. T. Question so resolved in the affirmative. Best, E. C. Morton, M. F . Question-That leave be given-put.· . Bruxner, Lt.-Col. Pollack, A. J. ·Budd, A. E. Reid, Major The House divided: Buttenshaw, E. A. Sanders, E. L. Ayes, 42; noes, 37; majority, 5. Cameron, W. Shand, Major • Carter, H. C. stevens, B. S.. B. AYES. Chaffey, Captain Thorby, H. V. C. Anderson, D. M. Lloyd, Brigadier-Gen. Drummond, D. H. Tresidder, E. p; Arkins, J. G. D. ··Main, H. Dunningham, J. M. Vincent, R. S. Arthur, Dr. R. Marks, E. S. Fitzpatrick, J. C. L. ,'Wailmsley, ,B. a. Ball, R. T. · Missingham, W. T. Foster; W. F. Wearne, W. E. Bate, H. J. Morton, M. F. Henley, Sir Thomas Weaver, R. W. D. Bavin, T. R. Ness,'J. T. Jackson, J. Tellers. Bruxner, Lt.-Col. Pollack, A. J. Jaques, H. V. Glasgow, C. F. S. Budd, A. E. Reid, A. A. E. E. V. Jarvie, Major Ness, J. T. Buttenshaw~ E. A. Reid, Major NOES. Cameron, W. Sanders, E. D. Carter, H. C. Shand, Major Baddeley, J. M. Knight, H. Chaffey, Captain Stevens, B. S. B. Booth, G. Lamaro, J. Thorby, H. V. C. Burke, Frank Lang, J. T. DrJ!mmond, D. H. Burke, Michael Lysaght, A. A. Dunningham, J. M. Tresidder, E. P. Butler, W. J. McDicken, H. J. Fitzpatrick, J. C. L. Vincent, 'R S. Cahill, J. J. McKell, W. J. Glasgow, C. F. S. Walmsley, B. C. Cameron, R. • Olde,B. C. Henley, Sir Thomas Wearne, W. E. Connell, H. J. O'Sullivan, M. Jackson, J. Weaver, R. W. D. Davidson, M.A. ·Quirk, J. Jaques, H. V. Davies, W. Ratcliffe, W. J. Jarvie, Major Tellers, I' Dunn, Captain Scully, W. J. Kilpatrick, M. Best, E. C. Ely, W. T. Shannon, T. J. Lee, J.R. Foster, W. F. Flannery, M. M. Smith, J. E. NOES. Gosling, M. Stanley, F . Baddeley, J. M. Connolly, P. . Hoad, K. 0. Tully, J. M. Booth, G. Davidson, M. A. Horsington, E. M. Tellers, Burke, Frank Davies, W. Keegan, T. McGirr, James Burke, Michael Dunn, Captain Kelly, C. A. Tonge, A. Butler, W. J. Ely, W.T. Question so resolved in the affirmative. Cahill;J. J. Flannery, M. M. Cameron, R. Gosling, M . [M,r. Deputy-Speaker left th(} chair at .C::mell, H. {• · "'' 1 Hoad,K. 0, ,·.:,j' 6.17 p.m. · T.~e House resumea at 7.45.] ·Privilege. [20 MAlL, 1930.] : P.r:ii!ilege. 3987•

PRIVILEGE. House after 6.10 p.m. to-day was illegal Mr~ REID: _.\_;; a matter of privilege and unconstitutional. If you rule against I desire to bring under your notice, Mr. me I ask-- Speaker, that at 6.10 p.m .. to-day Mr. Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The hon. mem­ Deputy-Speaker said, "I will now leave ber said that he r9se on a question of the chair until 7.45." Believing that privilege. no further business would be transacted !Ir. REID : I am going to ask, Mr. I left the House. When I was some 'Speaker, that if you rule against me distance away I was informed that the you will have my vote recorded. division bells were ringing. I returned ·J\fr. SPEAKER: The hon. member must as quickly as possible, but I found that know that I can give no ruling on a the bars were down. I might say that matter which took place in the House for two sessions I have not missed a divi­ when I was not in the chair. It would sion. I take my political duties seri­ be very unwise fQr me to express ·an ously: I submit for your consideration, opinion on the matter to which tlie hon. Mr. Speaker, that any' business which member refers, but as Mr. Deputy­ was transacted 0r any vote which was Speaker is present, perhaps, he will ex­ taken after 6.1\,. p.m. to-day was illegal plain the matter. The hon. member and unconstitutional. I quote this from must not take it in any way as dis­ May's Parliamentary Practice: courtesy, because, as I said, it is not. The business under consideration at the competent for me to give a ruling on ·moment of interruption stands over until the Q matter which arose in the House whilst next sitting or such other sitting as the I was not in the chair. member in eharge thereof may appoint. M;r. WALKER: What really occurred was this : The motion was carried "that I was debarred from exercising my vote leave be given to bring in the bill." through the action of Mr. Deputy­ Thereupon I intimated that I proposed Speaker. Not only did Mr. Deputy­ to leave the chair till a quarter to 8 Speaker say-and other hon. members o'clock. The hon. member for Manly, will substantiate what I am saying­ who had a very urgent call to the rear "! will leave the chair until 7.45," but of the premises, went for his life from he actually did leave the chair. I sub­ the Chamber. mit that if that is to be laid down as Mr. REID: I object to that statement! a precedent it affects the privileges of Mr. WALKER: He left the House members of this House. I take it that like a redshank. The Minister for if this House is adjourned this evening, I.ands, who was in charge of the bill, say, at 10.30 until Tuesday next, and I expressed the wish to present the bill leave the House no other business will and that it should be read a first time. be taken, but I submit that if the action I consented to that. The question was of Mr. Deputy-Speaker this afternoon is then put "that the bill be printed.'' The to be taken as a precedent no hon. mem­ leader of the Opposition called for a ber will be safe. Any hon. member division, and a division .was taken. occupying the high and honourable posi­ I am very sorry for what occurred, tion of Speaker could say that this because I understand it is the only divi­ House stands adjourned until a certain sion that the hon. member for Manly date and after hon. members had left has missed since he became a member the precincts of the Chamber he could of the House. With the consent of the return and occupy the chair and allow House, I intended to ask the Clerk to l'ecord the hon. member for Manly as business to be transacted. I am speaking having been present at the division. He not so much for myself as for the arrived for the purpose of voting, just preservation of the rules of this House as the bars were put down. The vote and the privileges of members. I ask taken was not upon the motion for the for your ruling, Mr. ,Speaking, as to first rending of the bill, but upon the whether the business transacted in this motion "That the bill be printed and it~ 8988 Police. Offences [ASSEMBLY.] . (Firearms) BilZ . second reading stand an order of the is designed to place in the hands of the day for to-morrow." That is all that proper authorities more control over the occurred. I am sorry for Mr. Reid; but use of air-guns and pea-rifles. The in·· I am sure he will not lose his majority . terpretation clause contains a clear de­ at ihe next election. · finition of "air-gun." It is proposed to Mr. REID: definitely restrict the use and sale of :Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The explanation air-guns. At present through the care­ o£ the hon. ·member for Manly will be less .use of pea-rifles .and air-guns in recorded in Hansard, but I regret that the ·hands of youthful and inexperienced I cannot 'allow the division list to b.e persons a number o f tragedies have altered. iri ·the manner suggested by the occurred. As it is intended to exempt hon. ~ember for Hawkesbury. shooting galleries the term "snooting Mr. 'REID: I have asked your ruling, gallery" is defined. The fixing of the !fr. Spe~ker, as to whether the procedure age below which a person shall not use, udopted. was constitutional?· discharge, carry, buy, sell, keep, or Mr. SPK\RER: I have already explained knowingly have in his possesion a fire­ t0 the hon. member that it is not com­ arm or air-gun involves a matter of petent for me to rule upon a matter principle. There may be differences of which arose in the House at a time when opinion amongst members as to the age I was not in the chair. that should be fixed. We have tentatively Mr. REID: Then who is competent to set down the age as 16 in the bill, but rule upon it? You are the only author­ in Committee I shall be glad to hear ity to whom I can appeal. the opinions of hon. members and alter 1fr. SPEAKER: The hon. member must that age if an alteration is shown to see that when the Deputy-Speaker occu­ be desirable. pies the chair, he has the same rights Mr. LYSAGHT: There is a prohibition and is clothed with exactly the same against selling and letting any firearm authority as the Speaker. or air-gun to any person under 16 years :Mr. W ALRER: When the division bells of age. The word "knowingly" is omitted rang hon. members, with the exception from that subclause so that a per­ .of the hen. member for 1fanly, who was son who honestly believes he is handing otherwise engaged, returned to the the weapon to someone over 16 years of ·Chamber. age when he is really under 16 years of Mr. SPEAKER: Order! There is no age will be liable to a penalty. matter before the House and the ques­ Captain CHAFFEY: I am quite "~l­ tion raised by the bon. member for ing in' Committee to make that more ex­ :l\Ianly must now be considered closed. plicit. Although the use .by persons under 16 years of the weapons named is POLICE OFFENCES AMENDMENT as general matter prohibited it is not (FIREARMS) BILL. prohibited in the case of boys who are being taught under proper supervision to SECOND READING. use them. There is a similar prohibition Captain CHAFFEY (Tamworth), against any person selling or lending or Colonial Secretary [7.58], moved: in any way placing one o:f the weapons That this bill be now read a second time. in the hands of persons under 16 years He said: I desire briefly to explain the of age. There is an advertisement in provisions of the bill and to ask the the press to-day offering air-guns for sale. House not to unnecessarily prolong de· It describes the missiles than can be pro­ bate upon it. The measure contains only pelled, the distance they wil carry, and four clauses, and is of such a character their penetrating power. In the hands that we should be able to dispose of it of young and irresponsible persons those to-night, provided that the time is de· weapons may take life, or at any rate do Yoted to considering its provisions injury. In the light of past experience rather than to debating the general prin· it is obvious that action should be taken ciple underlying it. It is a bill which in t~e direction of· p~eventing such Police Offences. [20 MAR., 1930.] '(Firearms) Bill. 3989 accidents. It is made an offence to know­ vision for taking out a warrant before ingly convey a :firearm to a person who a justice, where sworn evidence is pro­ is intoxicated or of unsound mind. I duced and substantial reasons given for believe a number of tragedies have oc­ searching for :firearms in any particular curred through the use of :firearms by premises. such persons. There is a further provi­ :Mr. DAVIES: This is only put in be­ sion that no person shall discharge a :firG­ cause there is trouble on the coalfields! arm or air-gun on private property with­ .. Captain OHAFFEY: The hon. mem­ out the consent of the owner or occupier. ber is entirely wrong. The bill has been :Mr. FLANNERY: Supposing. a snake sud­ ready since the time I gave notice of it, den1y appears on someone's else's pro­ 'vhich was long before Christmas. · perty and a man :fires at it? Mr. DAVIES: Why not be ·hopest, and Captain CHAFFEY: That is taking Fll..'V what is the real intention of the an unreasonable view of the clause. No bill? action would be taken in such a case. Captain CHAFFEY: That is un­ But there are innumerable cases of boys worthy the bon. member. If the bon. getting on to other people's property and member will exercise a little reason, and for sport or sheer mischief :firing shots examine the business-paper for the date without any regard to where the projec­ on which I gave notice of· the bill, that tiles may land. Such a practice endan­ will prove to him conclusively that his gers life and property. In that way also a assertion is quite without foundation. large number of native birds are de­ Under the definition. in the Pistol License stroyed. I do not consider it proper to Act, allow .a person to enter another's pro­ "Pistol" means nnv lethnl weapon from perty without authority and discharge which any shot, bullet or other missile can :firearms indiscriminately. The next pro­ he diseharged. and of which the length of vision in the bill deals with exemptions. barrel, not includin'! nnv revolvin1!'. detach­ The age limitation shaH not apply to .ltble or magazine breach, d{)e::t not exceed 9 inches, but does not include a toy pistol persons who belong to training schools or an antique pistol. which is kept or sold for military purposes, conducted under as a curiosity or ornament. proper supervision, to employees of a That definition has aroused considerable gunsmith or a gun seller or other em­ interest. If an:v person had a concealable ployees who carry firearms in the ordi­ weapon with a barrel more than 9 inches nary course of their employer's business, long, it was not necessary for liim to or to a person over the age of 12 years take out a license. The bill alters the and under the age of 16 years who uses definition of "pistol" so that a person a . :firearm or air-gun under personal who has a weapon with a barrel more supervision of a responsible adult. than 9 inches long will be obliged to take The next provisions of the bill deal out a license for it. The new definition with persons who sell to any one under is in these terms : the age of 16 years cartridges or bullated "Pistol'' means any lethal weapon of :>nY caps, and with persons under 16 years length ..,f barreJ·from which any shot. hullet of age who are found in po9session of SllCh ,. other missile cnn be d:ischarged, designed things. Proper safeguards are provided. I' r niming and firing f'rom one hand. and While we do not want to interfere with ~vhieh is reasonablv capable of being carried ('Oncen.Ied about t.h<' person, but cloes not the responsibility of a parent towards his inelnde a toy pisfnl or an itnt:;<1ne pistol child, if a boy is brought up on· a charge which is kept or s.old aB a curiosity or OTna­ the parent will be, protected from bein(\' ment. fined by the court if he can show that When the existing Act came into force he was bona fide una'ble to exercise con­ traders and manufacturers· :sold to per­ trol, and had. no knowledge of what the sons, who m·ay have required these wea­ boy was doing. pons for a purpose which was not desir­ Mr. LYSAGHT: able. in the public mterest. pistolr;; with Captnin CHAFFEY: I do noCthink a length of barrel sli\rhtly (\ver !) inches, the hon. member will ()UP.sti6n the pro- and advertised to the public at large 3990 Police Offences [ASSEMBLY.] (Firearms) Bill.

that those were legal weapons within Mr. ELY: What does "pistol" mean~ New South Wales.. The hon. member Captain CHAF'FEY: If the hun. for Marrickville, then Colonial Secre­ member will turn up the Act and look tary, said in the most definite terms at the definition of "pistol" he will .,;ee when asking leave to introduce the last that it is dear. The Government pro­ Act that he welcomed a measure which poses to alter the definition so that it would make the law he was responsible will definitely apply to concealable for administering far more effective and weapons longer than 9 inches which are beneficial in the public interest. He more dangerous than those shorter than emphasised also the necessity for greater ·9 inches. It will be necegsary for o.wners control over boys using air-guns and pea­ of such weapons to take out a license. rifles. A further provision makes it com­ Mr. BADDELEY (Cessnoek) [8.!2.5]: petent for a trader to refuse to sell a The Minister has expressed the opinion firearm, and gives to a person who is re­ that there will be very little opposition fused a license by the police the rig-ht to the bill. During his speech on the to appeal to a magistrate. The bill also motion for leave to introduce the mea­ confers powei· on the police to refuse a sur~ members of the Opposition as'hil license to a dealer in firearms. Th.· I ·assure them that the measure has down a bill. The Minister referred to been brought down as the reE

lhe not use an air-gun? He is quite property to shoot, but if this bill be­ -capable of looking after himself. If a comes law they will be rendered liable boy of 15 goes into the bush with an to a penalty not exceeding £10 for duing .air-gun or pea-rifle and a policeman finds so. the weapon in his possession he will be Captain CHAFl<'EY: They have nothing niable to a penalty not exceeding £10. to worry about! 1 am afraid the Minister has not given. Mr. BADDELEY: This provi~ion is .consideration to this bill, because that dangerous, because it would preclude rrovision is ahsurd, and should be struck any man from going on another person's •OUt i~ Committee. N 0 father would al- prQpert;y with a firearm. .. low his child to take out a dangerous Captain CHAFFEY: The provision is weapon unless he had confidence in him. necessary because boys of 14 or 15 years Subclause (3) reads: of age may have no regard for the pro- (3) No person shall knowingly ·sell, let perty of others, and may shoot at gal­ oOr hire, give or lend a firearm to a person vanized iron tanks and riddle them with who is intoxicated or of unsound mind. bullets, and they ·may damage finger- Who is to say whether a person is in: posts, kill or injure valuable stock or otoxicated? I have in mind a case which even.' c~danger human life! tOCcurred the other day when a police- :Mr. BADDELEY: The !'Iinister wants man approached ·a man driving a :rhotor- to restrict everybody in the community.

returned to its owner. Thus, a constable offence i£ he used force to keep him may seize an air-gun or pea-rifle which out. All that is Jlecessary on the part is being carried by a boy, and the onus of the officer before he seizes any fireaJmli will be upon the father to take proceed­ which he may find is that he shall have ings for the recovery of the weapon. It reasonable grounrts for suspecting that is quite possible for a police constable to there is a hreach' of the Act. Who is make a mistake and in such an event the going to decide what are reasonable father of the lad will be subjected to grounds? very great inconvenience. If a youth The next propv~ed new section gives has committed an offence, why not pro­ the. Minister pov·c:r to appoint persons ceed against him by summons? Proposed to exercise all the powers under the Act. new section 41H provides that a person I do not vbject tc the Minister being who does not take "all reasonable pre­ given power to appoint, but the power cautions" to ensure the safe custody of appointment given to him under this of any firearm or air-gun, shall be liable bill is too great a1together. Then there to a •penalty not e~ceeding £10. · Who is to ba a new se~. tion dealing with the is to determine what constitutes "all liability of pare. If the justice is reasonable precautions? In clause 4 jt satisfied he gives· authority to a member is' proposed to insert in subsection (1) of o{ the polic0 forsc to go anywhere, ·into section 10 after the words "sold, let on the home of anyone, to make a search hire" the words "transferred, lent." That :for any rifle or air-gun. The officer may is a very dangerous amendment of the enter at any timt: and if necessary use Principal Act. Right through, the bill · force to se:nch at>:v premises. I do not is dangerous. Too much responsibility know what the Minister means by force, is .placed on the possessor of a weapon but probably if a man tells the officer to watch where that weapon goes. The that he has no rifle or we·apon and the Minister should have given us more in­ officer uses force to get into that man's formation. As he does ·not give it I house the man would be committing an shall vote against the bilL Polioe Offences [20 MAR., 1930.] .. {Firearms) Bill. 3993

Mr. FLANNERY (Murrumbidgee) teet the lives of those people. It is pro­ [8.56]: The hon. member for Cessnock posed that no person under sixteen years. has pointed to so many clauses that of age shall use or pos.sess a :firearm OJ." require attention in Committee that the air-gun. Children are permitted to best thing the 1.1:inister can .do is to leave school at fourteen years of age withdraw the bill and have it recast. I and I :have seen boys .between fourteelll feel sure that if he does not he will and sixteen in charge of large teams of not know the bill when it comes out horses working on the roads and in the of Committee. When speaking on the :fields. The Minister, who is a country . motion for the introduction of the bill, man, would permit boys to be in charge' I said I was surprised to find a man of teams of horses but will not permit · representing cou~~try constituents, and them to have a revolver unless they are with knowledge of country conditions, very specially protected and controlled. bringing such . a bill before the Fouse. . Mr. TnORBY: The age of sixteen was. Upon perusing the bill I am still more in~erted only for the cor -:ideration of surprised. The provisions of the bill the House! will apply 1 o every part of New South Mr. FLANNERY: Wheu I mentioned Wales. If a ·bill of this kind is wanted this matter on the motion for leave to­ for the metrvpolii;au area; if it is thought introduce the Colonial Secretary said that in thickly-poJ;ulated portions of the that he ·himself was, in charge of a team State it is :1ecessary to have some drastic before he was sixteen years of age. The conditions, let a bill be brought in on Minister himself must therefore realise which metrJpolit,in members can speak. that the age is altogether too high. I say without hesitation, and as one who Major JARVIE: Would the hon. membel." has had bush experience all his life, that make it fourteen years of age? there are in this i1ill provision that are Yr. FLANNERY: In the great majo­ not required in the sparsely-populated rity of cases we could safely g:o bebw districts. If this bill is passed history fourteen. The bill would even preclude will repeat itself. When the Gun Act a boy under sixteen from using a pea­ was amended the Amending Act was rifle in a shooting-gallery. lion. mem­ hardly in force bef0re there was a clam­ bers know that at these places there is our right :;hroughout the State for the always protection. Surely a 'boy of tli­ repeal of some of its provisions. So it teen could be permitted to use a pea-rifle will be with this bilJ. If, in the interests there. If our boys are ·prevtnted fr::nn of their constituents, metropolitan mem­ using these weapons until they are six­ bers want legislation of ,this kind; let teen years of age, except under very spe­ them have it, but there is no necessity cial supervision, how are they to gain to bring in f

gives the Minister power to appoint per­ Mr. SAJ.~DERS: If the bon. member has sons to execute the provisions of the such a. son I hope he never meets with bill. .Surely the members of the poliee a gun accident! force ·have had sufficient experience to Captain DUNN: The bon. member police this Act, without the appointment would tie him to his mother's apron 'Of other persons to do so. Another strings until he was 16 years of age, and

he not be allowed to fire at the bull be­ a definite authority of the Minister which fore he got permission~· Should he have the rang~rs and caretakers must produce to run for· his life and find the owner before they act! of the paddock before he could :fire at Captain DUNN: These men~ will be the bull? Many landowners do not ob­ entitled to go into anybody's home and ject to on:e crossing their paddocks. The search it. bill will prove a travesty and a tragedy. Captain CHAFFEY: The authority will Proposed new' section 41I reads as fol­ not be given to any irresponsible person! lows:- Captain DUNN: The proposed new If a justice is satisfied by information .. paragraph states: on oath that there is reasonable ground The Minister may by order in writing for suspecting that any firearm is con­ appoint persons to exercise all powers and cealed or lodged in any premises or place authorities conferred by this part on mem­ in breach of this Act, he may grant a bers of the police force. search warrant authorising any member of the police force named. therein to enter at Is there any limitation there-anything any time if necessary by force and to search to show that it applies to sanctuaries any premises or place named in such war­ and rangers~ Does it say that some rant. special person ·shall be appointed to act? Under that proposed new section a man's It will apply to every area of New South home could be searched for :firearms, but Wales. Let me read paragraph 2: I would point out that the police now Every perso~ so appointed shall, if de­ have power to search premises. One of manded produce his authority fr®l the the mo>Jt objectionable of all the pro­ Minister when exercising any of the powers visions of the bill is this-it is con­ conferred upon him pursuant to this section. tained in proposed new section 41J : . Apparently the proposed new section (1) The Miuister may by order in writ­ applies to any place in the State. ing appoint persons to exercise all powers Captain CHAFFEY: The authority will and authorities conferred by this part on be signed by the :Minister and the powers meml!Jers of the police force; and every per­ son so appointed shall until such appoint­ will be clearly defined! ment is revoked by the Minister have and Captain DUNN: It ought to be may exercise, subject to such order, all or clearly stated in the bill that the ran­ any of the said powers and authorities. gers and caretakers of sanctuaries are My concern is that some irresponsible the persons who will act. One does not person who is not used to administering gather that .from reading the section. the law might have conferred upon him The proposed power is too drastic and authority which he should not have. ought to be held solely by the .Such a person might swear before a jus­ police, who to-day are the only per­ tice that he believed a lad had a :firearm. sons who can legally search premises. It might not be true. Would he be The police are supposed to have a war­ prosecuted for perjury? It is not so rant, but I know that they oftim search bad for the police to act; they have without one. The Minister proposes to power now. give civilians a power which is not exer­ Captain 0HAFFEY: Does not the han. cised ·by the police to-day. Such 3: po"'er ;; . mem'ber know why that provision h·1s is not given under any other legislation. been inserted ? Even in a case of murder a civilian is not given authority to sear.ch a house. Captain DUNN: No, I do not. A person might have a firearm on his Captain CHAFFEY: It is becau;;:e there property for a proper purpose, such as are areas known as sanctuaries whi·:.h the destruction of noxious animals, and are under the control of men appointed a civilian is to be given authority to as rangers and caretakers. If men go enter upon his premises and search for shooting in those sanctuarie3 those the weapon. rangers and caretakers will have authority Captain CHAFFEY: Take National to act under the Act. The power will Park, Centennial Park, or Kuring-gai be given to no .one else. There will l::e Chase. If a person committed an .3996 Police Offences [ASSEMBLY.) '(Firearms} Bill. offence under this bill by the time the of sixteen years this shall be deemed to be rangers got the police to take action the proved in the absence of proof to the con­ trary. offender would have gone! That means that a boy will have to pro­ Captain DUNN~ This provision gives duce his birth certificate. If a boy were authority to search his home. born in England he could not produce . Captain CHAFFEY: The :firearm would proof of age, and he would have to suffer be gone and the evidence removed ! a penalty. I am sure that Judge Jeffries Captain DUNN: It appears to me that would have been delighted with a bill like the Minister is going to give civilians this, because it reverses every principle powers which should be exercised only of British justice. Proposed new section by trained men. That is dangerous. The 41M provides : matter is not so important that Civilians \Vhosoever discharges a firearm or air­ should be given those powers. Proposed gun in or near a street or public place without lawful excuse shall be liable to a new section 41L .of the Police Offences penalty not exceeding ten pounds. Act reads: - If a person discharged a gun accidentally If any child under the age of sixteen years uses or has in his possession any fire­ in a public place would that·be a defence 1 .arm or air-gun, the parent or guardian Qf Captain CHAFFEY : That is the law the child shall be liable to a penalty not now! exceeding ten pounds. Captain DUNN: Why reaffirm it in It shall be a sufficient defence to any pro­ this bill? ceedings under this section if the person Captain CnAFFEY: In order to increase charged proves that the use or possession was without his consent or knowledg.e, and the penalty. I do not know if the hon. that he took all reasonable precautions to member is in favour of any person dis­ prevent the use or possession of the firearm charging firearms in a public place to or air-gun by the child, or that the child the danger of others without being called was over the age of . twelve years and was to book! ·using the firearm or air-gun under the Captain DUNN: I am not in favour supervision of an adult. of anybody indiscriminately discharging If a parent is away earning his living firearms in a public place, but a man and a virile full-blooded boy of 14 takes a might discharge a firearm accidentally gun and goes out and has a shot the father in a public place, or he might have will be held responsible unless he proves reason for doing so. that the firearm was in the possession Captain CHAFFEY: We had a case the of his son without his consent or know- ' other day of three boys sitting in a boat ledge, and that he took all reasonable on the Parramatta River firing at a precautions to prevent the use or posses­ bottle in the water, the ricocheting bul­ sion of the firearm by the child. It is lets endangering the lives and limbs of an axiom of British justice that a person people on the river and on the fore­ is innocent until he has been proved to shores! be guilty, but that principle is being re­ Captain DUNN: Is there no other way .versed. The onus of proof is on the of dealing with boys who do that? prosecution. but under this bill the par­ ent or guardian will have to prove that Captain CHAFFEY: No effective.way! the firearm was discharged without his Captain DUNN: It is strange to me consent or knowledge. He will have to that the law has no effective way of deal­ go to a court to do that, and, perhaps, ing with boys who do that. This pro­ lose a day's pay. If legislation of this vision requires drastic amendment. If kind is to be brought in continually I we continue to pass re])ressive legislation do not know where the liberty of the nobody will have any liberty and nobody subject will be. Proposed new section will know where he stands. The num­ 41K of the Police Offences Act provides: ber of deaths which occur through the use !11 every prosecution for an offence of firearms is <'Omparatively small when against this part where it is averred in the compared with the nnmber of people information that a person is under the age killed in motor acaidents. As a matter Polic.e Pi!ences [20 MAR., 1930.] (Firearms) Bill. 3997 of fact, I think it would be sufficient prohibited. It has been urged that the to provide that a boy over the age of 12 vendors of fiTearms will be unduly pen·· should be allowed to handle firearms .. · alised by reason of one of the provisions Mr. CARTER: It might be better to have of this bill. I submit, however,· that any one age for the country and another for shopkeeper ought to be able to determmc the city I after a few minutes' conversation, whe­ ·Captain DUNN: That ~ight be satis­ ther the prosp.octive purchaser of a fire­ factory. Any boy in the country is well arm is either intoxicated or of unsound able to handle fu~arms, but it might be mind. In reply to another objection necessary to alter the age for the city. which has been raised, I ask hon. mem-· I believe that most of these clauses hers whether they believe that any police should be recast. Certainly we ought not constable would apprehend a lad in the· unduly to restrict the use of firearms country who was 14 years of age, and' by growing boys, particularly boys in who was able to handle a gun, upon the the country. At the same time the House ;plea that he was using the weapon is quite prepared to clothe the Minister without the knowledge of his father~ with any power that may be necessary ·Captain DuNN: Of course he would! for the better working of the Act. Mr. S.AJNDERS: I do not agree with. llfr.. SANDERS (:Willoughby) [9.31]: the hon. member. The officer would know Unlike those members of the Opposition that the lad was using the weapon under who have addressed themselves to this proper supervision. bill, I desire to congratulate the Min­ Mr. FLANNERY: It has to be proved ister upon having brought it forward. that he is under supervision! I cannot understand the objections which Mr. SANDERS: Be reasonable. I have been raised to it. It seems to me do not believe in preventing boys from· that its effective working hinges upon shooting in the country. The lads in one word that is used in it-the word the country ought to be taught to use "supervision." That word, I take it, im­ a gun. But some supervision is required. plies that the use of the weapons enum­ As to shooting on private property, what erated in the bill, must be under proper right has any man to do that~ control. It does not mean that a father Captain DuNN: There are hundreds of must actually accompany his· son, when persons. in the country wl#o do not mind the latter is carrying a firearm. Rather fellows shooting over their property ! does it imply that a proper measure of :11:r. SANDER'S: That is all right'; control shall be exercised over the use it would be easy for the shooters to of these weapons by boys. If a lad of get authority, but no man has a right twelve years in th.e country can handle a to go on another's property without auth­ gun as well as an adult, and if he re­ ority and shoot. No owner would give ceives the permission of his father to permission indiscriminately, but to any use it, I submit that he will be using it young man in the district known to him under proper supervision. I cannot un­ to be respectable and responsible an derstand why any hon. member should owner would give authority to shoot on oppose the second reading of the bill. It the property at any time. This is a is a measure which has been urgently bill that the people of the State gener­ needed for some time. When the hon. ally, and those of 'the metropolitan area member for Marrickville as Colonial particularly, have been .long asking for. Secretary was putting the Pistol Amend­ In the language once used by the hon. ment Act, 192'7, through this House, I member for Marrickville, ''We are bring­ appealed to him to prohibit the use of ing in a bill to prevent the indiscrimin­ pea-ri:fles in the metropolitan area. My ate use of pea-ri:fles;'' appeal, however, was turned down. Mr. W .•T. SCULLY (Namoi) [9.43]: Everybody must recognise how danger­ I am rather surprised at a man like the {)US it is for lads to use pea-ri:fles or Colonial Secretary, who knoWs 'the coun­ air-guns in the metropolitan area. . The try well, bringing in such a bill as this. !198 o£ the~e weapons should 1be absolutely I could understand its bejng brought W.. 3998 Folic~ Offenqes · [ASSEMBLY.] (Firearms) Bill•.

by a man who knew nothing of the officers can interpret the law. I shall country, just as the amended ;Gun Act try to persuade the Minister to restrict was brought in. That Act only brought the operation of the bill to the county ridicule on it~ sponsor. Some boys of o{ Cumberland. At any rate, I think the age of 16 are expert shots. I have the Minister will agree that the provi­ no doubt the Colonial Secretary was · sions of the bill should not apply to a boy such a boy. If the operation of the bill over 15 years of age. Anyone who knows was confined to the county of Cumber­ anything of country life knows that 2 land we would not have so much objec· lad on a farm takes his place practicall; tion to it, but to apply it to all New as a man as soon as he attains the age South Wales is absurd. It could be so of 14. We see mere youths of 15 out amended as to make it useful in the il! the bush piloting teams of a dozen county of Cumberland. I thoroughly dis· horses, with just as much skill as an agree with the remarks of the hon ..mem· D.dult. These lads are born to life in ber for Willoughby in respect to shoot­ 'the country, and learn to shoot at an ing on private property. His remarks early age. It all shows that the bill might be worthy as applied to the metro­ should not be applied to country dis­ politan area, but when it comes to dis­ tricts at ·all. One thing I .object to is charging firearms on private property in making the guardian responsible for a the country he is very wide of the mark. youth under 16 carrying a firearm. It There the private property on which a will be necessary to go to no end of man uses a gun might be a 3,000 or 4,0"J\i trouble to prove that one did not know acre paddock. Yet under this bill un­ the lad was carrying a firearm. It less the man has obtained the consent would be sufficient penalty upon the par­ of the owner he will be guilty of an . ent if the lad was guilty under the bill. offence. Could anything be more ridi­ without placing the responsibility upon culous than that? It is making criminals a second person. I think that provision of persons who have no intention of should be deleted. I was pleased to hear breaking the law. The hon. member the Minister say he was prepared to ac­ said that a constable would carry out cept amendments, but as the bill is pre­ his duty efficiently and would use dis­ sented I do not think a more stupid cretion. Under the Gun Act there was measure could be devised. a prosecution in the country as a result Mr. LAZZARINI (Marrickville) O££ the action of an officious officer. An [9.54] : I suppose it shows my stupidity, officious officer went to a settler's place but I intend to vote for the second read­ in the Wee Waa district, and found in ing of the bill, although I believe it will the roof an old disused musket. It had be nece~sary to have certain amendments not been fired for years, and would never 'made in Committee. The history of this be fired again. He asked the settler if legislation is rather lengthy. The first he owned the weapon. The settler said, Act was brought in by Mr. Dooley, Colo­ "Yes; it is an old family heirloom, and nial Secretary in the Storey Government has been there for years. I never use in 1920. It was severely criticised from it." . That man was summoned by the one end of the country to the other, and police sergeant, and fined lOs. for hav­ was rather a foolish measure, finally be­ ing an unregistered gun. ing considerably amended and having Mr. SANDERS: I did not excuse any certain sections repealed. There was man for having unregistered gun! ~n much discussion at that time in this Mr. W .•T. SCULLY: No, but I am Hou8e as to whether certain other forms giving an illustration of what may fol­ of firearms should not be placed under low from the act of an officious officer. I confess that in this bill a weapon kept regulation-as to whether, in fact, cer­ as a souvenir and not useful as a gun tain weapons should not be either abol~ is exempt from registration. That is ished, or prohibited as far as young an improvement of the law. I could boys were concerned. I have not the quote other ~ases to show how officious slightest hesitation, therefore, in saying. - Police Offences [20. MAR., 1930.] (Firei:u·ms) Bill. 3999 that I am prepared to support an amend­ them. As I said on the motion for leave ment to the effect that young boye, un­ to introduce the bill, I am surprised at accompanied by an older person, shall the carelessness of parents who allow· not be allowed to be in possession of that boys of 6 or 7 years of age to discharge type of firearm at all. The bill contains them in the street. A little boy living a provision that no person under 16 in my district had one eye put out as years of age shall use or possess an air­ the result of being struck by one of these. gun or pea-rifle. Personally, I think the . darts. There is no occasion for acci­ age is rather high, and in Committee. I -dents of that sort to happen, and it is. intend to ask the Minister to accept an our duty to amend the law so as to make amendment making it 14 years, with a them impossible in the future. Conse­ proviso that a person under that _age quently I shall support the prohibition using a firearm shall be accompanied by of that class of weapon. I agree with. a person over the .age of 16. I think the proposed new definition of the term that would· get over the difficulty. Un­ "pistol." Under the existing Act "pis­ doubtedly ~there are boys of 12 in the tol" is defined as a weapon 9 indies in. country who can use firearms well. length. But persons who wished to use :Captain CHAFFEY: I have already · those weapons illegally simply got them definitely stated that the age is a matter made half an inch longer than the limit for the -Committee. I should not object prescribed in the Act, and they could to fixing the age at 10 years, as long as not then be prevented from using them. there is proper supervision by a compe-. I intend to .support the proposal to limit tent adult! the age at which boys shall be allowed Mr. LAZZARINI: Like the hon. mem­ to use firearms. - ber for N amoi, I am a native of the Mr. CARTER (Liverpool Plains) country, and when a boy of 9 or 10 I [10.3] : There is no doubt, after what used an old muzzle-loading shotgun. I one reads in the papers from day t() was taught by my father how to use it, day, that many accidents occur as the and I did so without dange:. The great result of the misuse of pea-rifles and trouble with regard to pea-rifles is that a air-guns. That shows how albsolutely number of boys living in the city and necessary the bill is. The measure is suburbs, who have had no instruction long overdue, because many children whatever in the use of firearms, are in have lost their lives or been injured the habit of going camping at holiday through the careless use of firearms. The time, and shooting birds-illegally in bill needs improvement in one or two some cases. Many serious accidents hap­ respects but on the whole it is an ex­ pen, some- fatal and some -resu-lting in cellent measure. There is one thing boys being maimed, through the careless which this discussion has brought out use of these weapons. By all means let very fully-that is the superiority of the boys go out and indulge in this class of country boy to the city boy. Every sport, provided they are accompanied by member of the Opposition who has an older person; otherwise I think it spoken stressed that point, while city and would be reasonable to prohibit their use suburban members sat quietly by and of firearms, in the interests of them­ evidently concurred. Proposed new selves and other people, and of prevent­ section 41c provides: ing the damage they occasionally Jo. No person shall sell, let or hire, give OJ' With regard to air-guns, I would lend, any firearm or air-gun to any person support a provision to prohibit their use under 16 years of age. altogether. They serve no useful pur­ I think if the word "knowingly" were pose ; they are of no use as a protection inserted before the word "sell," the pro­ or for the destruction of pests. They vision would be improved, because an are only made because of every boy's innocent seller would then be relieved of natural desire to possess a gun he can the risk of being fined £10. Boys who fire. Darts are discharged from these live in the country often send to the air-guns, and quite young boys poesess p:earest town, or eve11 ~o Sydney, for a 4000 Police Offences [ASSEMBLY.] (Firearms) Bill.

rifle. The dealer who sells the rifle to to realise their responsibility, and will .such a boy does not know how old he is, prevent them from shooting :indiscrim­ and in despatching it to the country he inately. might be liable to a fine of £10 not­ Mr. THORBY: I move: withstanding that the sale was a legiti­ That the question be now put. mate one. It would be quite excusa'ble for him to think that the boy was old The House divided: enough to have a rifle: Proposed new Ayes, 36; noes, 32; majority, 4.. :Section 41F also provides : AYES. Any person who within the boundary of Anderson, D. M. Main, H . .any municipality uses any contrivance com­ Arkins, J.G. D. Marks, E. S. :monly called or in the nature of a maxim Bate, H. J. Missingham, W. T. :silencer shall be liable to a penalty not Bavin, T. R. Morton, M. F. €]teeeding twenty pounds. Budd, A. E. Ness, J. T. It has been suggested that there should Buttenshaw, E. A. Pollack, A . .T. Cameron, W. Reid, A. A. E. E. V. he one law for the city and another for Carter, H. C. Shand, Major the country in connection with the care­ Cha:ffey, Captain Stevens, B. S. B. less use of firearms. Under the provision Drummond, D. H. Thorby, H. V. C. which I have just quoted the person who Fitzpatrick, J. C. L. Vincent, R. S. Foster, W. F. Walker, R. B. used a maxim silencer beyond the Glasgow, C. F. S. Walmsley, B. C. boundary of any municipality would Henley, Sir Thomas W earne, W. E. not be liable to a penalty not ex­ Jackson, J. - Weaver, R. W. D. -ceeding £20. The prohibition of the Jaques, H. V. Jarvie, Major Tellers, use of the maximum silencer should Kilpatrick, M. Best, E. C. be extended to ·the whole State. Lee, J .. R. Lloyd, Brigadier-Gen. They are commonly used by opossum NOES. shooters and others who go out at night Baddeley, J. M. Lazzarini, C. C. to get a little cheap mutton. I suggest Burke, Frank McDicken, H. J. that the words "within the boundary of Burke, Michael McKell, W. J. Cameron,R. Olde, B. C. any municipality" be struck out. The Clyne, D. O'Sullivan, M. discharge of firearms on private property Connolly, P. . Quirk, J. has a far-reaching effect. Men and Davidson, M. A. Ratcliffe, W. J. boys who go shooting, often do not know Davies, W. Scully, W. J. Dunn, Captain Shannon, T. J. that they destroy stock. It often hap­ Ely, W. T. Smith, J. E. pens when men and boys go shooting tha~ Flannery, l.L M. Stanley, F. sheep and horses are shot. I know of one Goslin&M. Tonge_, A. man who shot a sheep and who after­ Hoad,K. 0. Tully, J.M. Kelly, C. A. wards said that he aimed at a paddy­ Knight, H. Tellers, melon. He explained that it was an · Lamaro, J. Cahill, J. J. accident, and offered to pay for the Lang, J. T. McGirr, James sheep. Under the bill there would Question so resolved in the affirmative. be a case against him for shooting Question-That the bill be now read a Qn private property. It is not an second time--put. The House divided: uncommon thing for stock to be shot Ayes, 38; noes, 30; majority, 8. through . the careless use of £.rearms. The bullets from rifles which have AYES. Anderson, D. M. Fitzpatrick, J. C. L. a range of 500 or 6{)0 yards have rico­ Arkins, J. G. D. Foster, W. F. cheted o:ff stones and killed sheep. At Bate, H. J. Glasgow, C. F. S. :Maitland when miners used to go shoot­ Bavin, T. R. Henley, Sir Thomas Best, E. C. Jackson, J. ing hares it was not safe to walk in Budd, A. E. Jaques, H. V. th.e paddocks on holidays !because of the Buttenshaw, E. A. Jarvie, Major shots which flew everywhere. This bill, Cameron, W. Kilpatrick, M. Carter, H. C. Lazzarini, C. C. besides protecting the public, will pro­ Cha:ffey, Captain Lee, J.R. ~ property. It will also cause people Drummond, D. H. Lloyd, Brigadier-Gen. · Poltce Of!enc1s [20 MaR., 1930.] (Fi1'earms} Bill~ 4001 . I Main, H. Tonge, A. :Mr. BADDELEY: I think that thir· Marks, E. S. Walker, R. B. teen years represents a fair con1promise. Missingham, W. T. Walmsley, B. C. Morton, M. F. Wearne, W. E. I will, however, accept the Minister's, Ness, J. T. Weaver, R. W. D. sugges6on. I therefore move: \ Reid, A. A. E. E. V. Shand, Major Tellers, That the word "sixteen" be str~ek out;· Stevens, B. S. B. Pollack, A. J. and. there be inserted the word "f&1rteen'' Thorby, H. V. C. ·Vincent, R. S. in lieu thereof. . ~ · · NOES. Amendment agreed ,to. I· Baddeley, J. M. McDicken, H. J. Amendment (by Captain Dunrl) pro- Burke, Frank McGirr, James posed: \ Burke, Michael McKell, W. J. Cahill, J. J. Olde, B. C. That after the word "years" there be in­ Cameron, R. O'Sullivan, M. serted the words ''in the metropolitai area." I Clyne, D. Quirk, J. Captain CHAFFEY (Tamllrorth), Connolly,P. Ratcliffe, W. J. Davidson, M.A. Scully, W. J. Colonial Secretary [10.29] : The're are Davies, W. Shannon, T. J. two points connected with the a\nend­ Dunn, Captain Smith, J. E. ment to which I desire to invite :atten­ Ely,W.T. Stanley, P. tion. In the first place I ask what is Flannery, M. M. Tully, J. M. Gosling, M. the metropolitan area? It is not ciearly Road, K. 0. Tellers, defined. Secondly, if the amendmJnt is Kelly, C. A. Knight, H. adopted, a definition will be requirM of. Lang, J. T. Lamaro, J. the Newcastle district, and of many c6un­ Question so resolved in the affirmative. try municipalities. Thus the propdsal Bill r~ad a second time. would create no end of complicatiohs. The proper thing is to fix the age lirtit IN COMMITTEE. at 14 years, and to impose no restrictiohs C~ause 2. The Police Offences Act, 1901, upon the use of firearms lby lads beyo~.d is amended-(a) by inserting next after that age~ so long aS such lads are und~r section forty-one the following new part:- the control of a competent person. I pART I!A. FIREARMS, &c. ask the bon. member for Mudgee not to press his amendment. \ 4:c. (1) No person under the age of J\{r. LANG (Auburn) [10.30] : I would sixt~en years shall use, discharge, carry, buy, point out to the Committee that in the sell, keep or knowingly have in his p~sses' sion a firearm or air-gun. country, boys of 9 years frequently use firearms, and I do not recollect hav­ ~3) No person shall knowingly sell, let ing heard of any resultant accidents. or hire, give or lend a firearm to a person In my day, lads 9 years 'of age shot woo is intoxicated or of unsound mind. hares, opossums, and other ~nimals. ( 4) No person who is intoxicated sltall use, carry, or have in his possession any Mr. NESS: And many vaiuable sto'Ck firearm or air-gun. were killed ! ( 5) No person shall discharge a firearm Mr. LANG: I do not know about that. or air-gun on private property without the I have been in the bush and have never consent previously obtained of the owner or heard of any accidents. When are boys oroupier of such property. going to be allowed to start shooting? Mr. BADDELEY (Cessnock) [10.25~: When a lad gets to 16 years of age he I propose to move: has not much time for recreation; he That the word "sixteen" be struck out is generally at work. If an undue ar.d there be inserted the wcrd "thirteen" in ,lieu thereof. number of accidents had been caused Captain CHAFFEY: I suggest that the by young lads the position would have hon. member. should substitute "four­ been different. It is a usual thing for tem" for "thirteen." The wnsensus of half a dozen lads to go out camping in opinion amongst hon. members is in fav­ the bush to shoot kangaroos and other our of fixing the age at fourteen ~earl}! \ ~nimal~ 1 and I have never h~ard of $em n~ .. I I 4:002 Police Offences . [~SSE MBLY.} (Firearms) Bill. shooting .'one anot,her. There are occa­ who knocked abom, in the- bush with me sional a~cidents, but accidents happen all had guns, which furnished the only when m~n are shcoting. bit of amusement they had. I would not Mr. MARKS: A fair number of acci­ have the clause in the bill at . all, if I dents -hfppen with pea-rifles! had my way, whether it provided for 14 · Mr. LANG: But this bill applies to years or 16 years. the- whlle of New South Wales. I do Mr. I~AZZARINI: The Minister having not seJ why we should stop the lads in agreed to reduce the age to 14, might the bu~h from going out and shooting accept my suggestion and add "accom­ the -·few animals they are allowed to panied by a person over the age pf 16."! shoot. / We might make the provision Captain DUNN (Mudgee) [10.44]: apply to the met1opolitan area and all In regard to the amendment I have munici~alities throughout the State. The moved, a question arose as to- what was pea~rifl~ is practically a useless weapon. meant by the words "metropolitan area." . Mr. BuDD: The pea-rifle is used largely I think it might be taken as including for shboting! the county of Cumberland and the - Mr. iLANG: I£ hon. members want to county of Northumberland. preverit the danger, do they propose Mr. W. J. SCULLY (Namoi) [10.43]: to slOp the use of all firearms I hope the amendment will be carried. becatke pea-rifles are dangerous~ Let I do not think this provision should us rot out the pea-rifles for a start apply to the country districts or to the Pen:\mally, I think that hon. members outlying parts of the county of Cumber­ will be sorry if the bill goes through as land. It is all very well for hon. mem­ it ls. I know they have the very best bers to talk of accidents caused by the o#ntentions, but they are providing too careless use of firearms, but in the coun­ '\11\ny restrictions. try districts ten times more accidents, l~f.r. WEARNE; I£ it is limited to the some of them fatal, result from the use nietropolitan. srea and country munici­ of horses by young persons. Would any­ P,ilities what about the boy who goes one think of asking for an Act of Par­ outside the town area~ liament to rprevent boys from using · Mr. LANG: He goes out to have a bit 1 horse:;? The hon. member for Liver­ or sport. I would allow boys still to pool Plains wants to penalise the grow­ have their recreat1on in the bush as they ing generation, probably because it was have now. I would not take that little not penalised in his day. There is ~oo pleasure away from them. It is not a muc1 tendency to impose ridiculous pen­ bad thing for the country to have good alties, which can only result in making shots. , criminals of people. We are harassbg An RoN. MEMBER: Is there not a the people in every direction and taking danger of their killing stock~ away their personal freedom, and all Mr. LANG: There is not much likeli­ to no good purpose. In fact we are hood of that. What we want to obviate retarding the development on useful is the danger to human life through the line< of young Australians. t~se of firearms. It might just as well [10.44:;: be said that we should pass a law to pre­ Mr. JAQKiSON' 1(Nepean) vant ten persons from meeting together I should like to hear the Minister on because they might be struck by lightn­ this clause. ing, becavse lightning occasionally kills An RoN. JlfEMBER: Apply it first :o someone amongst a million people. Just the mr;tropolitan area and afterwards, if in the same way, here and there, an it is foun~ !Ill right, extend it! animal !night be killed, but the danger Mr. J .A-C~SO N: I do not know h~w of that is rare. I would not like to take it is going to work in the metropolitan this privilege away from lads in the or any other area, but it .provides tbat bush, and I am not going to vote for it. no boy under 16 years of age shall It was the only recreation I had when possess an air-gun. The average youth

I was a lad1 and hundr(l(is of other bo;vs ;of H wol,lld scorp. an air-gun; he I \ :Polvce Offences [20 MAR., 1~30.] · (Firearms) Biil. 4003 . J wants some.thi~g much more substan- Mr. STANLEY (Lakcmba) [10.5'8] : I tial. I haw 'liD desire to see every irre- propose to move that air~guns be deleted sponsible youtl:t running round with a from the clause. · I gun in his hand, but I want to protect The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. the communi'fw 'in other respects. How member cannot do thai now. There .is we can say >:the 1bill shall operate only in already an amendment before the Com­ the city with ;the provisions in it, I do mittee. not know. Fourteen years might be Captain OHA:ETEY [10A9] : May I prescribed as the minimum age for pos- suggest to the Commitiee that the area be session of a ~lethal weapon, but to say limited to "any municipality." The bill that a boy mrder 14 years of age shall must either be applied to a defined area be denied the use of an air-gun is simpl;v or it must apply to the State generally. to declare ·that air-guns shall not be Mr. LANG (Auburn) [10.50] We used. I have •no objection to its being ought to take the rnetropolit;n area as declared that -air-guns are undesirable, defined in the New South Wales Elec­ but I should .like to know where we are toral Act. going. Mr. JACKSON: The present State boun­ Captain CH-.A.FFEY: [10.46] : The dary is the outer boundary of the Fed­ hon. member ·for Mudgee proposes that eral electorate of P:irramatta! the bill shall .'be confined to the metro­ Mr. LANG: That will not do. Let Ui> politan area. If that is done the area stick to the State Act. We have no con­ will have to. be defined, for there is no trol over the Federal boundaries, but we recognised district known as the "Metro· have over the boundRries of State elec-. politan area?' ·There is the metropo1itan torates. Within the metropolitan area police district, which extends from the is half the population of New South Hawkesbury .'River on the north by an Wales, and that is a very fair nu.mber irregular boundary to Mount Victoria of people upon whom to try the provi­ on the west, ~then down to Bundanoon sions of this bill. With r.ogard to che on the south, and to Milton on the question: raised by the hon. member Ior coast. Then . there is the metropolitan N epean, we have to be very careful. At railway district and then there is the . Christmas people give presents of toy metropolitm -·traffic district. There guns to children. Those guns expel a would be exactly the same difficulty cork which might kill a fly if it hit it, but if those children were found in pos­ as regards definition in extending session of those toy guns they would be the operation of the bill to other liable to a penalty of £10. It .is futile municipalities. In reply to the bon. to legislate to prevent children from member for .Nepean, the Committee carrying cannons about, because the has already determined upon 14 years weig view of ascertaining \\'1'3 have to e':!:amine them from that whether it is likely that this parasite