43.4: Questions and Answe1·s. [.ASSEMBLY.] Questions and Answe1's. Deputy Town Clerk another o'fficer of Mr. O'SULLIVAN: On Saturday last. the council will be able to act. This I met a deputation consisting of mem­ amendment is approved by the Sydney bers of· the Air Force, including those City Council. mentioned by the hon. member, and I Clause agreed to. think that nearly every bon. member received an invitation to join the depu-· Clause 11. (1) For the purposes only of the preparation in the year one thousand tation. These men seem to have a gen­ nine hundred and forty-two of the supple­ uine complaint and I propose to take mentary rolls required by the Principal up the matter with the Government with. Act to be prepared by the council of ~ac~1 a view to seeing whether it is not pos­ area and of matters necessary for or mCl· dental to such preparation,. section twelve sible to grant the concession. of this Act shall be deemed to co=ence upon the fi1·st Satm·day in December, one WHEAT IN STORAGE. thousand nine hundred and forty-one. Mr. NOTT: I ask the Minister for­ Agriculture whether it is a fact that, Amendment (by the Ron. R. R. Down· at the present time large stocks of wheat ing) agreed to: ·are stored in New South Wales? If That in subclause (1) the words "the so, will the Minister inform the House supplementary rolls required by" be struck of the number of bushe1s stored in this­ out and there be inserted in lieu thereof State and also in the Commonwealth, if the wo1·ds "any rolls required by or under." such figures are available? Clause as amended agreed to. Captain DUNN: It is not a fact that Bill reported with amendments; re­ a large quantity of :wheat is stored in port adopted. this State and is free for use by millers House adjourned at 9.31 p.m. or for export and other pUl'poses. It is a fact that there is plenty of wheat. stored but it has been purchased by the ~ritish Government and is its pro­ ''iGtgialattbt 1\.!Ultmbly. perty. No doubt it cou1d be made avail­ able for use here if necessary. Almost Tuesday, 19 August, 1941. all the wheat grown in New South Wales has been disposed of and there are .ample supplies for the millers right up Quc'3tions without tNotice--"1ater Consen·fltion­ ~"arm

opinion that the bill which was passed enrolment forms. Much variation existed by this House last week will, when it in connection with this, and to simplify becomes law, overcome this difficulty? the matter it was decided by the Govern­ \Vill he request the owners not to in­ ment to use the State electoral rolls stal these machines in the meantime, for the simplification of enrolment. The so that the mines can resume work? law will provide that any person who is l\ir. BADDELEY: It is perfectly an occupier, and whose name appears true that some of the mines are idle on the roll-the last roll was compiled as a result of the owners desiring to in­ on the 18th June last-will be entitled troduce mechanical appliances for the to vote at the elections that are to be extraction of pillars, and it is also true held in December 11ext. that there is now a bill relating to that subject before the Legislative Council, FELT AND TEXTILES OF and I hope it will soon become law. I AUSTRALIA, L'l'D. am prepared to do all I can to bring l\{r. GREIG: Has the Premier's at­ about . a resumption of work at these tention been drawn to a statement that collieries, and if it would help I am pre­ Felt and 1~extiles o£ Australia Ltd. pared to get in touch with the owners propose a new issue of 235,986 ordinary to that end. shares of £1 each at a premium of lOs. a share, thus increasing ordinary capi­ MUNICIPAL ELECTIONS: RESIDEN­ tal to £1',179,839? Will the Premier TIAL QUALIFIC~>\TION. inform me whether Felt and Textiles Mr. SHANNON: Has the attention shares sold yesterday at 4ls., or 2s. above . of the Minister for Local Government the closing price in July? Will the Pre­ been drawn to the propaganda appear­ mier ascertain for this House why Felt ing in the press than only one month's and Textiles Limited should be permit­ residential qualifi.ca tion will be neces­ ted such increase in capital by the. sary in order to qualify for a vote at the coming municipal elections under the Capital Issues Board, and why this com­ Local Government (Electoral Provi­ pany should be favoured by what ap­ sion) Act, recentl.Y passed by this pears to be preferential treatment, House? Can the Minister say whether whether Sir l\{assey Greene is chair­ this is correct and, if it is not, will he man of directors of this company, and make a statement that will remov'e whether it is receiving preferential con­ the misapprehension that seems to ex­ sideration because it is dominated by a ist in certain circles in the .city? financial group operating from Collins Mr. JAJ\fES McGIRR: I do not Street, :M:elbourne? :Consider that a statement upon this question is necessary, because the bill Mr. l\{cKELL: I did notice in the was passed in this House, and the debate press that Felt and Textiles Limited upon it was fully reported in the press. propose to make a further issue of If persons are making allegations of that shares, but I did not go into the details 'kind is shows that they have not taken the of the issue. I understand that Sir trouble to obtain a copy of the bill and Massey Greene is chairman of direc­ to examine it, nor to study the reports tors of that company, but I am un­ published in connection with it. ThE) aware of the facts placed before the ·position is very clear and very definite, Capital Issues Board that would en­ that the franchise is being extended to able it to give a decision permitting the occupiers, that is, to those people who fresh issue of capital. I will bring the were formerly unable to be enrolled, .'and who were placed in the position of matters mentioned by the hon. member sometimes having to make application under the notice of the appropriate for enrolment at the local council cham­ Federal authority and see whether it is bers, and others to whom it was some­ possible to obtain the information that times necessary for town clerks to send he desires. Q·uestions and Answe1·s. [19 Auo., 1941.] Questions and Answers. 437 RAILWAYS: COOTAMUND'RA-JUNEE the State. A possible exception is DUPLICATION. in connection with part of the Mr. DICKSON: I ask the Premier Sandy Hollow-Maryvale job. The Fed­ whether the report in yesterday's Sun eral authorities are very desirous that some important railway works will that this work should be completed be adversely affected by the cut in loan as early as possible, and have asked funds, which will probably cause a slow­ that a second shift be put on tun­ ing down of construction, is correct~ nel construction, which is being done. Is it further a fact that the Coota­ Any additional expenditure involved by mundra-Junee railway duplication was reason of overtime rates will be met by mentioned in the published list of the Federal Government. Apart from works likely to be affected~ If the that specific instance, the money for the Premier's answer to the last ques­ whole of those works is being provided tion is in the affirmative, will he from the ordinary loan funds of the inform the House whether it is not fur­ State. ther a fact that :finance was made FARE CONCESSIONS: 'fRANSPOR'r available specifically for this project, EMPLOYEES. apart from the ordinary loan alloca­ Mr. LETHBRIDGE: I ask the :Min­ tion by the Loan Council~ ister for Transport whether it is a fact Mr. McKELL: I should be sorry to that employees of the Department of hold myself responsible for all that Transport employed on trams and buses appears in the press. I did see the re­ have the pr.ivilege of travelling free on port, but where the press got the infor­ those means of transport to and from mation I cannot say; I certainly did work, and that they are entitled to half­ not make such a statement. It seems to fare concession passes when travelling be characteristic of some pressmen to to and from work on the railways? Is indulge occasionally in speculation. I it further a fact that employees of the stated in the House on a previous occa­ Railway Department are entitled only sion that the action. of the Loan Council to half-fare concession passes when would result in a very substantial cur­ travelling to and from work on the rail­ tailment of public works, including rail­ ways, and get no concession at all way works. I have not on any occasion wl1en travelling to and from work on said that any particular work would trams or buses? If these are facts, will be affected. The Hawkesbury River the Minister state the reason for the bridge, the .J unee-Cootamundra railway anomaly, and will he take steps to rec­ duplication and the Sandy Hollow­ tify it, so that transport employees in :Maryvale railway are works of a de­ all the services might have uniform fence character, and, as far as I am rights and privileges? concerned, everything humanly possible Mr. O'SULLIVAN: It is a fact that will be done, not only to keep these works tramway men travelling to and from going at the present tempo, but also to work in uniform may travel free on the speed them up if possible, because of trams and buses. It is also a fact that their value as defence works. It is not certain members of the Tramway De­ correct that· any specific amount has partment enjoy half-fare privileges on been allocated for the J unee-Coota­ the railways. That applies only to those mundra duplication. These three works men who were in the service before Hi30. are covered by our ordinary loan vote The late Government issued a decree and no specific amount has been set aside that no person who joined ·the tramway for them by the Federal authorities, service after 1932 should have that con­ either through the Loan Council or from cession. It is also a fact that railway Federal funds. men, in proceeding to work, have to pay llfr. SANDERS: Not in past years~ their fare on the trams. I shall look into Mr. MoRELL: Not in past years. the matter raised by the bon. member, Those works have all been carried out and will let him have a reply at a later in their entirety from the· loan funds of date. 438 Questions and Answers. [ASSEMBLY.] Questions and Answers. TRANSPORT OF TIMBER: Mr. C. E. MARTIN: I understand REGULA 'l'IONS. it is a fact that many garage proprietors _ :Mr. FITZGERALD: Is the Minister are experiencing considerable difficulty for Transport aware that there have been because of the Federal Government's ac­ numerous prosecutions of men engaged tion relating to petrol rationing, which in the transport of timber of greater has resulted in the decline of their 'busi­ length than 40 feet, and that a large pro­ nesses. I understand also that a num­ portion of this timber is required for ber of these proprietors cannot pay poles, piles, and mill logs of a length their rent. As to the amendment ' g.reater than 40 feet? Will the Minister . of the Fair Rents Act suggested by direct that no further prosecutions be in­ the hon. member, this is not the only stituted until the question has been fully complaint received in regard to land­ investigated? lords. My colleague, the Minister of Mr. O'SULLIVAN: I have followed Justice, and myself, have received in­ the procedure very nearly as laid down by numerable complaints of what must be the former Minister for Transport. I admitted to be undesirable practices, have had inquiries made, and I find in connection with the letting of that under the regulations no person is houses, and it seems necessary .that allowed to transport logs of a length of the Act should be amended. I will take more than 40 feet except for up the matter with my colleague with a defence purposes. If the logs are for view to making a further statement defence purposes, the local police will later. i·eaclily give a permit. We have also laid down that where these logs are to be HUNTER RIVER VALLEY: WATER CONSERVATION. transported adequate lighting must be provided at the rear of the load, and Mr. ROSE: Can the Minister where a trailer is used it must comply for Agriculture inform the House with the regulations which require the what progress has been made carrier to provide necessary 'brakage. with the soil tests in connection with Although there have been a few com­ the construction of the dams for the plaints, it may interest the hon. member Hunter 'il alley water conservation scheme? Can the Minister also say to ~now that the majority of those en­ .gaged in the industry have complimen­ whether the survey of the Brushy Hill ted the department for having brought Dam site has 'been completed? If so, in these regulations. vVe have had many will he have the survey of the proposed . i?J.quiries, but I am satisfied that the supplementary dams on the Glennies and police have done a good job, and I do Cock:fighter Creeks expedited? not propose to alter it. - . Captain DUNN: It is a fact that surveys of the B:rushy Hill . GARAGE PROPRIETORS: PAYMENT OF Dam site and one other, Glen­ RENTS. baron, have been completed. I under­ Mr. LANDA: Does the Attorney­ stand also that the soil tests there General know of the desperate position are in hand, but in regard to the third -of many garage proprietors in this State and further dam site the survey is not who, before petrol rationing was en­ complete. There has been a delay forced, entered into leases involving the in testing the soil because of the hold­ _payment of heavy rentals, and that ow­ up of some· of the necessary plant. ing to that rationing many garage pro­ I will have the test expedited, and in­ prietors are unable to pay their rentals form the hon. member as soon as pos­ or to obtain relief from the lessors? If sible. this. is so, will the Attorney-General as­ sure the House that legislation will soon RAILWAY EMPLOYEES: ATTEND­ be passed to ensure fair rents to garage ANCE AT MILITARY HOSPITAL. proprietors, and will he make the legis­ Mr. F. J. CAHILL: I ask the Min­ lation retrospective? ister for Transport if it is a fact that Questions and Answers. [19 Aua,, 1941.] Questions and Answers. 439 for· twenty-two years the Railway De­ whether the orchard tax should be partment has granted time off with pay retained. One section of the fruit in­ .to returned soldier employees requiring dustry saw me in connection with the .treatment at Randwick Military Hos­ ballot and asked if it would be possible pital? Is it also a fact that this con­ to ascertain how the voting went in re­ -cession has now been abolished, inso­ gard to commercial orchards and those far as returned soldiers employed in which, by reason of their diminishing ,the construction branch are concerned~ area, mig·ht not be deemed to be co=er­ If so, will the Minister give considera­ cial orchards. A total of 14,000 ballot tion to the restoration of the conces­ papers were sent out, and orchardists :eion, so that the policy of leave with with less than two acres, which are not pay for Randwick hospital treatment considered to be commercial orchards, will apply to all returned soldier em­ were given ballot papers with a different ployees of the service without distinc­ marking from that placed on other ballot tion~ papers issued by the returning officer. Mr. O'SULLIVAN: Leave without The ballot paper was the same in each loss of pay for the actual time involved, case, but the initials of the returning up to a maximum of half-a-day, has officer were somewhat different. The ob­ been allowed to returned soldier em­ ject was to ascertain how the owners of ployees of the Department of Railways what are regarded as commercial or~ on each occasion they have required to chards had recorded their votes. The bal­ .attend the Randwick Military Hospital lot papers were all counted together, but, .for treatment since January, 1939. Prior by reason of the difference in the mark­ to that date, if the amount of pension ing of the initials by the returning t·eceived by a man was less than his officer, it was possible to inform inter­ normal earnings for the period he was ested parties exactly how the ballot had .absent attending hospital, the difference gone. Although 14,000 ballot papers was made up by the department. This were sent out, 6,000 were not returned. -concession has never been allowed to The majority of \otes cast was against .construction branch employees who are the continuance of the orchard tax. The in the nature of casual staff, being em­ poll was neglected by a large section of -ployed only so long as the work for which orchardists who merely had to record a they were engaged lasts. In any case plain "yes" or "no" on the ballot papers the gTeat majority of these men are that were sent out. I am sorry to say' that, -employed in the country and it would, in my view, orchardists that did not therefore, be quite impossible for them to attend Randwick hospital for treat­ return their ballot papers showed little ment. If, however, the bon. member inte1·est in their industry, and it now -can inform me of any such cases I will devolves upon those who defeated the be pleased to have inquiries made. retention of the tax or did not vote to inaugurate an organisation to look after ORCHARD TAX: BALLO'l' PAPERS. the interests of the fruit-growers. The Major· SHA.L\I"D: In connection with ballot was conducted in a manner to the poll of orchardists taken recently which no exception could be taken, and to decide whether the orchard ta-" should all interested sections had scrutineers be abolished, will the Minister for Agriculture inform the House whether at the count. If the hon. member re­ ballot papers were issued that distin­ quires further information I will let guished each class of orchardist?, If him have it. ·such distinguishing ballot papers were not issued, how was the result of the vote TRAFFIC INSPECTOR: GRAFTON ·in the different classes arrived at~ SOUTH. Captain DUNN: In accordance with J'l:[r. WINGFIELD: Is it a fact that the policy of the Government, the ballot the Minister for Transport intends to of orchardists was held to decide appoint a traffic inspector at South. 440 Questions and Answe1·s. [ASSEMBLY.] Questions and Answers.

Grafton Bridge, and, if so, will con­ 111:r. BADDELEY: I have received , sideration be given to the undeniable no allegations or complaints, but I have claims for appointment of Mr. P. J. read of them in the press. I am cer­ Russell, of Lime-street, South Grafton~ tainly going to investigate the matter, Mr. O'SULLIVAN: Representations and ·propose to meet representatives of fishing interests with a view to over­ have been made to me for t.he appoint­ ment of an inspector at the Grafton coming the difficulty. Bridge, and it was also requested that he be provided with a 1,1niform. In this ENEMY ALIENS : SOCIAL SERVICES. case, I have followed the practice of my Mr. SANDERS: Will the Minister predecessor, who, I believe, promised Mr. for Social Services say whether it is Hussell a post when the first vacancy true that Italian aliens are receiving occurred. social services in this State? If so, even though. it may be opposed to the policy of the previous Government, will he take ELEC1'ROMATIC TRAFFIC SIGNALS. action to have the practice discontinued, Mr. HORSINGTON: Will the Min­ because of the burden imposed on the ister for Transport say whether any taxpayers? police supervision is exercised at inter- • sections in many parts of the city and llfr. ENIGHT: I suggest that if there principal towns of the State where traffic were any aliens carrying out subversive is controlled b:y means of electromatic activities they would be interned. If signals; also whether many motorists an alien remains a free member of the completely ignore the signals to the im­ community and is in distressed circum­ minent danger of those crossing the stances as a result of unemployment or streets? If these are facts, will the Min­ from other causes, .I see no reason why ister see that the traffic laws are rigidly he should not receive the benefit of the enforced? same social services as are enjoyed by other members of the community. Mr. O'SULLIVAN: I am not aware that a number of motorists disobey traffic signals. If this were so, I am VEGETABLES: MARKETING. sw·e the police would attend to the Mr. LETHBRIDGE: I ask the Min­ matter. ister for Agriculture if it is a fact that ·Mr. HoRSIXGTON: Some motorists go Mr. A. H. E. l\icDonalcl, Chief of the straight across the road against the sig­ Division of Plant Industry of the De­ nals! partment of Agriculture, has stated that a campaign is to be launched to encourage Mr. O'SULLIVAN: It is true that farmers in districts that have substan­ some motorists drive across intersections tial rainfall to grow vegetables in pre­ against the signals, but in some cases ference to other crops? Is it also a it is accidental. The police can quite fact that hundreds of tons of vegetables easily handle these cases, but I will have are going to waste each week th;ough inquiries made and advise the hon. mem­ the lack of adequate marketing facili­ ber further as early as possible. ties, and that the prices of vegetables to the consumer are often so high that it FISH: SUPPLIES AND PRICES. is not within the reach of persons to Mr. GiORM:AN: Will the Colonial purchase them ? If so, will the :Minister Secretary say whether it is a fact that state whether, if more vegetables are serious allegations have been made con­ grown, he will deal with the problem cerning the quality and price of fish at of their marketing, so that consumers present available on the Sydney market, may obtain them at a reasonable cost? whether he has received complaints, and Captain DUNN: It is a fact that Mr. what action he proposes to take in re­ :McDonald, Director of Agriculture and gard to allegations made by the fish Chief of the Division of Plant In­ .retailers? dustry, at the express wish of the Questions and Answers. [19 Aua., 1941.] Questions and Answers. 441

Federal authorities, has made public whether the New South 'Vales Govern­ his desire that a greater quantity of vege­ ment was consulted before the decision tables should be grown in districts that was made? Also, can he state where enjoy a good rainfall. The purpose is the site is located? to meet the desire of the authorities to 1\fr. :McKELL: My attention has not send to the troops what is regarded as been drawn to the press statement to an ideal ration. It is a fact that the which the hon. member. refers. As prices of vegetables to the public are hon. members know, a number of sites somewhat higher than they f:hould for munition factories have been be, but the hon. member should selected in New· South 'Vales and many bear in mind that the country has factories are now in course of construc­ been passing through a severe drought, tion in various centres. I feel sure that with a resultant· shortage of water most hon. members know just where the in districts in which vegetables are sites of those factories are located, also usually grown. It is considered by . the extent to which their construction my department that, apart alto­ has progressed. If the hon.' mem­ gether from the request of the Federal ber· lws in mind the proposition authorities, a campaign to encourage the for the production of power alcohol, growing of more vegetables should be I feel that probably Senator }fc­ engaged in because of the restrictions Bride has been misreported, because up placed on the use of water in the metro­ to date a site for that purpose has not politan area, where vegetables are usually been selected. The Commonwealth auth­ grown for this great city. I am not orities have asked the State Government aware that there has been a failure to to suggest a site, and, consequently, 1n.arket enormous quantities of vege­ various parts of the State are being in­ tables, and if that is the position the vestigated. Just at the moment we are marketing officer of my department will awaiting further information as to what be asked to look into the matter im­ is involved in the partic~llar industry, mediately to ascertain whether some bet­ and as soon as that is obtained, a recom­ ter arrangement cannot be made to sup­ mendation will be made· by this Gov­ ply the market with a product that is ernment to the Common wealth authori­ so badly wanted. ties. I do not know of any other muni­ tion factory for which a site has been PUBLIC SERVICE AND UNIONS. selected, apart from those to which I :i'.fr. :McKELL: On the 5th August have just referred. the hon. member for Ashfield asked me to lay on the table a copy of the request FOOD SUPPLIES:. RELIEF WORKERS. made by the Government that all its Mr. HOWARTH: I ask the Minister employees should become members of for Transport whether it is a fact that appropriate trade unions. I told the the storekeeper and the baker at Bulla­ hon. member that I would take pleas­ delah, who carry food supplies to relief ure in tabling the memorandum, and workers in the camps established in that that I now do. district in connection with main roads work, have advised the men that they MUNITION FACTORIES. will have to discontinue their runs }fr. DRING: Has the attention of owing to petrol rationing. Is it also a the Premier been directed to a state­ fact that this is the only way by which ment that appeared in the press, and the men can obtain food supplies? If which is attributed to Senator :McBride, these are facts, will the Minister make to the ef!ect that a site for an ammu­ representations to the Liquid Fuel Con­ nition factory has been purchased in a trol Board with a view to making avail­ country town in New Sou~h Wales? If able sufficient petrol to maintain the so, will the Premier inform the Hoa~;e food supplies to these relief workers~ 442 Questions and Answe1·s. [ASSEMBLY.] Questions and Answers.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN: I am not aware close observation since the introduction of the' facts as stated by the hon. mem­ of restrictions on the use of petrol, ber, but I will have inquiries made. If and that due to representations by men who are on relief work are being the hon. mem'ber additional accommoda­ denied the right to have their food tion has been provided where considered supplies, I will take up the matter with necessary. The commissioner adds that the responsible department with a view the services on the Clovelly line are to seeing whether it is possible to make being further reviewed at the present :available sufficient petrol to meet their time, with a view to the provision of any :requirements. additional accommodation that may be JI.1R. A. J. GIBSON: PROFESSIONAL warranted. So far as the Bronte line is FEES. concerned, the hon. member will recollect Mr. SHEAHAN: I ask the Minister that I replied to this matter when he for .Agriculture whether Mr. A. J. Gib­ asked the question. son has for some time past been engaged .hY the ·water Conservation and Irriga­ rETROL RATIONING, tion Commission as a professional con­ Mr. 0'8 ULLIV.AN : On 30th July sultant on bores and boring works last the hon. members for Sturt and throughout New South Wales, and is Y ass asked me questions without notice :receiving remuneration at the rate a f relative to the effect of petrol ration­ :£2 2s. per hour~ ing on primary producers. In reply, Captain DUNN: It is a fact that Mr. the Chairman of the State Liquid Fuel A. J. Gibson has made some inquiry Control Board informs me that the and has submitted a report in connec­ Commonwealth Authority has approved tion with boring in the north-west and of reasonable facilities being made western districts of New South Wales. available to primary producers for the He was engaged not by this Government purpose of enabling the carriage of :nor the Water Conservation and Irri­ their produce to market, but has in­ gation Commission but by the previous dicated that the petrol position is so Administration to report upon the pros­ serious that limits must be imposed on Jlect of making more efficient use of the quantity that can be authorised water obtained from bores. .At a later even for purposes of this nature. The

Victorian, and that he concentrated his To illu5trate the need for the provision efforts on the Murray and its trit•u• of head storage works, I will refer hon. taries in the southern State. That Statf! members to the Lachlan River, on which has made the best use of the waters is situated the 'Vyangala Dam. Hon. of the Murray that have been conscned members who knew what the river looked in the Hume Reservoir. like fifteen years ago, will appreciate my Mr. HoRSING TON: Not only the ~fur·· point regarding the provision of head ray, but its tributaries in Victoria! storage works in order to maintain a reo·ular flow. Then settlers were unable Jlir. CH.AFFEY: Yes, but I am com­ to"' obtain sufficient water for irrigation paring· what has been done in New and stock purposes. I spent some years in South \Vales with what has been done the neighbourhood of what is now the site in Victoria. There has been no great of the J emalong-'Vyldes Plain scheme, endeavour by New South Wales to uti­ and that enables me to assess its value lise the waters of the Murray as she is and its limitations. I warn bon. mem­ entitled to do. 1.\t the present time we bers against forming a wrong impression are probably making use of only about of the possibility for greatly increased one-tenth of the water to which this closer settlement there. The property State is entitled. The obstacles that at J emalong, which comprises almost were met years ago with respect to one-sixth of the area within the ambit water conservation are not likely to be of the scheme, covers an area of approxi­ met now. I am not concerned so much mately 30,000 acres, and it is often re­ with the irrigation aspect or the pro­ fen·ed to as the first likely to be resumed duction of new crops. The position for closer settlement. I agree that the has become more serious than that time will eventually come when it should in our inland areas. It is now our be resumed for closer settlement, but !responsibility to !Jl1aintain production that time has not yet arrived. On the an,d settlement in those areas where J emalong area the water supply is being production and setttlement have already put to its fullest use, and it is support­ been . established. Throughout New ing more people proportionately tl~an South 'Vales men have sunk every any other area beyond its boundanes. penny they possessed in purchasing Cl~ser settlement should be restricted to properties and building homes on the such areas as are not being put to their assumption, and not an unreasonable fullest use. I say quite candidly that I one at the time, that the water would prefer an area beyond the boun­ supply would be permanent. The growth daries of J emalong to some areas with­ of large country towns, which in many in it because of the higher capital cost, instances tend to become cities, is over­ and 'because I prefer an undeveloped taxing the facilities provided by Nature. tract of land to one developed by some­ The farther one goes down the inland one else. That point would be appreci­ streams the more acute becomes thE: ated by any new settler. water shortage. Expenditure on water conservation is essential for the main­ An average of forty-seven wage-earners tenance of the productive capacity of have been supported by the J emalong the land. property for a period of three years, ex­ cluding haulage contractors and others I think hon. members realise the ne­ engaged on contract work. The property cessity for the provision of head storage works on the upper reaches of the prin­ supports more than 1.5 employees per cipal inland streams in order to main­ 1,000 acres. In my opinion the area which comes within the scope of the tain their flow. A scheme prepared by J emalong-Wylde's Plain scheme .will the Water Conservation and Irrigation not be able to support more than Commission was applauded by all par­ twenty settlers. Hon. members are tics at the recent elections, but the Com­ inclined to gain a wrong impres­ mission needs money to put it into effect. sion of the volume of water that It will do a good jo-b if it is allowed to. will be, made available for irrigation, W ate1· Conservation. [19 Auc., 1941.] Wate1· Conservation. 44q and the area that can be irrigated. I works will be carried out within the understand that somewhere in the vicin­ catchment of the Lachlan River, but ity of fifty water rights per 1,000 acres Wyangala gives us ample illustration of will be allowed. A water right repre­ what we should be aiming at in regard sents a foot of water for an area of one to water conservation. acre, but that is not sufficient to pro­ The north-west is probably the least duce a normal crop in that locality. Dur­ developed part of the State, thanks to ing a period of twelve months, a'bout a lack of attention by the Govern­ 22- acre-feet are necessary for the pro­ ment. V•le have the Keepit Dam in the duction of a crop of lucerne. Although course of construction, and I hope this 1,000 acres is entitled to fifty water work will not be curtailed. I realise rights, only twenty acres in every 1,000 that war work must have precedence, could be effectively irrigated. There are but I believe that water conservation is definite limitations to the development an essential work, not so much from of this scheme. Only twenty new the standpoint of increasing produc­ settlers could be placed on the tivity or bringing about new settlement, land, and the scheme would do away but in order to maintain our present with the means of livelihood of the settlement and production. There are persons already employed on that area. many country towns whose water sup­ This property is more highly developed ply position is far worse than that of than any other for miles around, and I the city of Sydney. The natural sup­ submit in all sincerity that an area plies that they relied upon have become being put to its best possible use exhausted because of dry seasons, in­ ought to be the last resumed for closer creased settlement, overstocking, ring­ settlement. Hather should we take up barking and so on, which have increased those areas that are not being put to the run-off from the country and dimin­ the best possible use. I hope that hon. ished the natural underground supplies members will not be carried away by a that used to feed the inland streams. I description of the possibilities of this was pleased to notice in the policy speech area. In these matters closer settlement of the Premier that it is the Govern­ is a minor aspect. ment's intention to develop and to main­ JYir. HORSIKGTON: It should be a tain an efficient staff and team of work­ major one! men for work of this kind. At Keepit Mr. CHAFFEY: The main purpose we have been compelled to put on all raw of these works is to maintain a flow of men who have not been used to this water in the river in order to safeguard class of work, because those who were the position of settlers already estab­ employed at Wyangala had been allowed lished there. The farther west we go, to drift into other occupations. I hope as the hon. member should know, the that from now on it will be possible, more acute becomes the shortage of as one work is completed, to transfer water. Settlers are finding it more and the whole team to a new job and so more difficult t.o carry on because in­ maintain efficiency. I do not wish to creased settlement and the growth of in­ refer to these matters as they affect the land towns are causing the supplies of Upper Hunter, fully' anticipating that water to become exhausted. We need tne hon. member representing that dis­ head-storage works to maintain the trict will state the case to have work lower waters of the river. That is the carried out there. The Hunter River prime objective in water conservation, is one of the richest areas in the State, and closer settlement is secondary to it. and there again is proved the necessity ,When we compare the present flow main­ of head-storage works to maintain the tained in the Lachlan River with its :flow of water to protect the interests of flow :fifteen years ago, we can appre­ settlers already established. Settlers in ciate the necessity for similar work on the Upper Hunter find themselves in ex­ all our inland rivers. I have no doubt treme difficulties by reason of the limi­ that as time goes on other storage tation of water supplies during recent 446 Water Gonse1·vation. [ASSEMBLY.] Water Gonse1'vation.

years. I am also personally interested Mr. CHAFFEY: The boundaries of from a political standpoint in the pro­ our artesian basin are receding from posed dam at Bowling Alley. year to year. Mr. HoRSINGTO'N: Why politically~ l\fr. HoRSINGTON: The supply of .ar­ Mr. CHAFFEY: From .a parliamen­ tesian water is becoming less! tary point of view, if the hon. member Mr. CHAFFEY: In this State, yes, prefers it that way. It is in the elec­ while settlement outside the artesian wrate of Liverpool Plains, but the Tam­ basin is increasing, and water must be worth electorate will benefit greatly from provided for those settlers. I move this that work. The Tamworth district last motion in all sincerity realising that year had to import fodder supplies, there are other bon. members who desire whereas it ought to have been exporting to speak on the subject. I trust that them. We attribute that to the long the new Government will. assist the dry period and the fact that having no \Vater Conservation and Irrigation Com­ head storage, and consequently no river mission in every possible way, so that flow, the river flats have been unable to it can proceed with the work it already produce lucerne crops for hay or has in hand. The scheme that is being fodder of.any kind. This dam is part of a developed was drawn up long before this scheme already prepared by the Water Government assumed office. Hon. mem­ Conservation and Irrigation Commis­ bers who have sat in this House for sion to develop the north-western parts some time will recall that the scheme of the State and to supply water to cer­ was propounded by the former Govern­ tain country towns. ment. Water should be conserved at One would feel, having read the Pre­ the head of all our inland rivers, with mier's policy speech, that water conser­ a view to consolidating the future of vation in this State would be proceeded our inland towns and districts. If the with without delay. Although the ex­ Government will proceed with the work penditure on water conservation last the future generations of this State will year amounted to approximately bless it for what it did and not blame £1,000,000, we do not know what it will it for something that it failed to do. be this year, but I trust that the work Mr. HORSINGTON (Sturt) [3.59]: will be maintained at least at the exist­ I suppose no hon. member would be ing rate of progress. I appreciate the likely to oppose the object of the motion Government's !financial difficulties be­ which is the provision of water, but the hon. member who moved it confined his cause of the State's allocation of loan efforts to water conservation works money, but I regard water conservation already commenced. It would seem as being vitally necessary in the rural that he was concerned only with his districts. It is necessary to maintain own electorate. production, and the tempo of the work Mr. CHAFFEY: No, the works in hand up to date has not been sufficient to meet cover other parts of the State! increased deinand.s. With increased Mr. HORSINGTON: It seems that. settlement more water is required· from water conservation in the bon. member's our water-courses, and the supply is be­ electorate was all that he asked for. ing used to a greater extent than it is Water conservation played a very prom­ being augmented. Similarly, that applies inent part in the Premier's policy speech, to our artesian bores, and we are faced and it is the Government's intention t(} with the position that the artesian basin proceed with the work. The ·harnessing in this .State appears to .be drying up. of many streams throughout the· State· is necessary in the interests of closer A supplementary water supply must be settlement, because, as the hon. member provided. said, the shortage of water is the most Captain DuNN: Some experts say our serious drawback in many of our country artesian water is giving out! centres. At the present moment there lVater Conservation. [19 .Aua., 1941.] Water Conservation. 447 is a serious shortage of water in the Mr. CHAFFEY: It wili be available for metropolitan area, but that involves irrigation! largely a domestic problem. The posi­ }.£r. HORSINGTON: The same­ tion in the city and suburbs is different thing was said when the Wyangala from that in the rural areas. The scheme was under consideration, but State of Victoria has done at least the result of that work has been that the­ twenty times as much work in harnessing large settlers now benefit from a better the rivers for irrigation as has been ac­ supply of water. complished in New South Wales. The 1\fr. CHAFFEY: That is all that will running streams of New South Wales be obtainable from Keepit Dam! have not been used for closer settle­ ment purposes. The hon. member for :Mr. HORSINGTON: If that is the Tamworth referred to the construction case, the expenditure of a large sum of Wyangala Dam on the Lachlan of money is not justified. If Australia River. When the construction of that is to develop, it must support a larger work was under consideration hon. population, and the streams must be members visualised the settlement of harnessed. Water must be conserved thousands of families in the Lachlan and the land that will benefit should Valley. The water, it was stated, be made available for closer settlement. would be available for stock and domes­ During the debate on the Western tic purposes as far west as Ivanhoe. Lands (.Amendment) Bill last week Wyangala Dam cost £1,250,000 to con­ there was a great deal of discussion struct, but not one additional S<:!ttler concerning the settlement of returned has been placed on the land as the soldiers. The present position is, that direct result of the undertaking. The very little land is available for whole of the land in the Lachlan Val­ closer settlement, soldier settlement, or ley is suitable for sheep raising, but anything else. There is enough water the construction of the dam has merely flowing· down the Darling River, every assured a regular water supply for the now and again, if it could be conserved big landholders. and harnessed, by the expenditure of a few million pounds, to enable thous­ The future development of this coun­ ands of returned soldiers to be placed on try is largely dependent upon a vigor­ the land along the banks of that river, ous policy of closer settlement. If the which extend for 1,260 miles through population of .Australia is tG be in­ the driest part of New South Wales. creased, land must be available for .Although that land is waterless, it is closer settlement purposes, and al­ some of the best in Xew South Wales. though £1,250,000 of public money It is simply a matter of conserving the was spent upon the construction water. I presume that the construction of Wyangala Dam seven or eight of Keepit Dam employs about 150 men. years ago, not one additional settler, Mr. CHAFFEY: About 350! to my knowledge, has been placed on the land. When the proposal to con­ Mr. HORSINGTON: The benefit struct the Keepit Dam, which will har­ arising from the construction of Keepit ness the waters of the N amoi River, was Dam and other water conservation submitted to Parliament, it was said 10chemes should be conferred upon the that it would make land available for people as a whole, and not on a few settlers along that river right down to landholders. When the recommendation of the Public Works Committee, approv­ Walgett where the Namoi 'River joins ing the construction of the Wyangala the Darling, or the Barwon, as it is Dam at a cost of £1,250,000, was adopted called at that place. What guarantee by Parliament, emphasis was laid on· is there that after the expenditure of the fact that it would lead to closer a large sum of money on the construc­ settlement but I have not yet heard of tion of Keepit Dam land will be made one man 'who has been given land in available for closer settlement~ that area. 448 W atc1· Conse1·vation. [ASSEMBLY.] Wate1· Conse1·vation.

:Mr. CHAFFE\': ·will the hon. member completed years before the war started admit that landholders have benefited and some large estates could have been by being able to earn a living in the resumed, but no action was taken. Valley of the Lachlan as a result of the Mr. 0HAFFEY: Are you in favour of construction of \Vyangala Dam? the J em along scheme? :Nir. I-IOHSINGTON: No. There is Mr. HOHSING-TON: I admit I do only one section that are earning a liv­ not know much about the Jemalong ing. A proper system of closer settlement scheme, but I understand that it is a by the breaking up of the large estates sub)>idia'ry 1~roposal to the Wyangala is required. One of the curses of this Dam. country is that there are land-locked l\fr. 0HAFb'EY: It was completed only towns throughout the Lachlan Valley. last year! On the edge of the town of Condobo­ l\fr. HORSING TON: I do not know lin, for ·instance, not 200 yards from much about that, and will not criticise the main street, over the bridge, there anything I do not understand, but if is one holding with an area of some­ J emalong is a subsidiary to the Wyan­ thing like 200,000 acres. I speak from gala scheme and is of no mor.e benefit memory; I think the area is greater to the State than Wyangala has been, than that. The owner of that land then I say it is a waste of public money. employs six men. If the land, with On the other hand, I am in favour of 1·iver frontage .for seven or eight miles, any water scheme that will bring about were made available, eighty families closer settlement, and by that I mean Queensland. Three clamations were issued over the large es­ or four months ago the stream in the tates along the Lachlan valley, but they river was 30 feet deep, but nothing was were not exercised. There has been no done to conserv.e the water. If that settlement along the Lachlan Valley. water were conserved, thousands of re­ :Mr. 0HAFFEY: Action was postponed turned soldiers could be settled on the until after the war! banks of the Darling River from :Mr. HOHSINGT0N: Action was not Queensland to Victoria. The west suf­ taken, but the explanation just men­ fers periodically from drought, and, as tioned by the hon. member has never sure as the sun rises, after six or seven been made public. Wyangala Dam was g·ood seasons there will be three or four Wate1· Conservation. [19 Auo., 1941.] Water Conservation. 449 dry ones. If the water were conserved closer settlement projects, aided by irri­ lucerne could be grown and huge losses gation. Consequently, we have to aim .of stock eliminated. At ~ienindie some at giving security to existing settlers -of the best fruit in New South Wales is rather than at embarking upon addi­ grown, and tomatoes, oranges and tional great settlement schemes. lemons ar.e sent from there to Sydney. Mr. HonsiXGTON: Does the bon. mem­ Unfortunately, sometimes the river runs ber mean that the Government should -dry and the people of Menindie have not break up big holdings~ :been agitating for a reservoir. If the Mr. VINCENT: There would not be motion of the bon. member for Tam­ much use in doing that unless it were ·worth ·were not so narrow and confined possible to supply an adequate amount to his own immediate wants, I would of water to the small settlers who were support it. placed on that land. Unfortunately, Mr. CHAFFEY: I am prepared to widen there is not sufficient water in Australia it! to enable that to be done on a large Mr. HORSIXGTON: If any Govern­ scale. The bon. member for Sturt refer­ ment spent £5,000,000 per annum on the red to the locking of the Lachlan. For settlement of returned soldiers on inland years past we have heard it said in river areas it would be money well spent. song that if only we could lock the If there were a weir at Bourke the water Lachlan we should have a golden valley could be conserved there in sufficient there, with flourishing farms, from ths .quantity to place returned soldiers on the point of commencement at the Wyan­ land to grow lucerne and other fodder. gala dam to the termination of the .Another weir could be erected at Wil­ river. However, the quantity of water -cannia and a further one at Wentworth. conserved in the Lachlan river is not Mr. CHAFFEY: They are provided for great, and the principal purpose of the in the scheme the Commission has pre­ existing scheme is to give security to })ared! settlers already in that area by ensuring Mr. HORSINGTON: No action has that they have an adequate supply of yet been taken, but if these works were water for stock and domestic purposes. carried out thousands of settlers could Australia is unfortunate, also, in not be placed along the banks of the Dar­ having any great ranges of mountains. Eng River. The motion cannot do any Our highest point is only about 7,000 harm, and the men should be kept em­ feet, and that happens to be situated al­ J)loyed on the works, if they are in most overlooking the seaboard, as dis­ -existence, but we should go further and tances go in this country. That is the spend more money on other parts of only part of Australia in which there the State. is a certainty of snow. We have no Mr. VINCENT (Ralei:gh) [4.20]: I glaciers, those great areas of solidified have much pleasure in supporting the water, that are enjoyed by other coun­ motion which, I hope, will be carried. tries. The sister Dominion of N evr I wish that the State was in a position Zealand has, at Mt. Cook, the great to allocate a greater sum than £1,000,000 Tasman Glacier, in addition to a for the purpose of providing a compre­ number of others, which provide a hensive scheme of water conservation, perennial flow of water. In addi­ but I realise that it would be difficult tion, a large portion of the 104,000 to do so at such a time as the present. square miles that make up New The speeches of the bon. member for Zealand carries perennial snow, which Tamworth and the bon. member for constitutes a reservoir from which big Sturt were interesting, and contained dams can be fed. In Australia we hm'e much food for thought. Unfortunately, to depend on our rather precarious pm­ Australia is poorly served in rainfall, cipitation and the ordinary run-olf, and the annual precipitation through­ and it behoves us to exercise the great­ out the Commonwealth is insufficient est care that nothing is done by settle­ to pPrmit the carrying out of large ment to interfere seriously with the 2F 450 Water Gonservation. [ASSEMBLY.] Water Gonse1·vation.

vegetative cover of our high catchment ruined. Water should be provided for areas which ensures a slow and regulated domestic and stock requirements, and run off of rain waters. for irrigation in limited areas. It is On many occasions we have listened true, as the hon. member for Tamworth to the hon. member for Sturt speak in­ said, that the Keepit Dam will supply a terestingly on. that frightfully dry area, large quantity of water for certain pur­ the ·western Division, whose only river poses, but that water will not be used is the Great Darling, which drains the for new areas, or in connection with the greater part of New South Wales, and breaking up of large estates. -It will be also a large portion of Queensland. I used rather to take the place of our ar­ am in harmony·with the hon. member tesian supply, which is becoming ex­ when he looks forward to the day, which hausted. It will give security to men al­ I hope is not far distant, when we shall ready on the land. have a series of weirs that will Mr. HoRSINGTON: Does that mean permit the impounding of the flood there will be no new settlement as a re­ waters of the Darling; but even that sult of the construction of the Keepit would bring about closer settlement Dam~ only on the two banks of the river. Mr. VINCENT: No, I would not say The greater bulk of the Western Divi­ that. Naturally, with the construction sion is waterless, and its capacity for of the dam there will be room for some carrying a population is limited. I am new settlement, but I do not anticipate afraid we shall not overcome that disa­ that it will be extensive, because the bility even though one conserve the quantity of water impounded in the dam waters of the Darling. will be largely for stock and domestie When we compare the position of requirements, and will serve an area of Australia with that of other countries only 10,000,000 acres. If that. water we realise how unfortunately we are were drawn off for the purpose of irri­ · placed. In the United States, over an gation and intensive cultivation some­ area approximately the size of Aus­ thing like 21 acre,feet on every tralia, they are able to embark upon acre would be required per annum. an enormous programme of water con­ and 21 acre-feet on an acre of servation, and even at the present time, country is a lot of water. It is equal in the north of that country, the Gov­ to something like 3,000 tons of water per ernment is engaged upon the construc­ acre, and is the equivalent of thirty tion of the gigantic Grand Coulee Dam, inches of rain. If we had a 30 inch at a cost of 390,000,000 dollars, a in precipitation over the State, it gTeater sum than has been expended on would be very valuable, indeed, and all the wa:ter conserva~ion works in I suppose we should not have to Australia. The United States has concern ourselves so much with the dozens of other magnificent dams that subject of water conservation; but, are suppl;ying water to densely­ unfortunately, we have not got that. settled areas, which produce vast When a man sows a lucerne crop he has quantities of primary products. In to ensure that it receives sufficient water New South \Vales, expenditure on throughout the year or the crop will not water conservation has been almost in­ be a success. And if you multiply 3,000 finitesimal, and, when all is said and tons of water required by one acre o£ done, successful settlement in this great land per annum by 1,000, 10,000 or and rich State depends not so much upon 100,000 acres, you will find that you the ~:~uil, of which we have plenty of good quality, but upon water supply. The would want hundreds .of millions of water supply in this country is the limit­ tons of water, and in all probability that ing factor in regard to settlement, and water would not be available for irriga­ hon. members should appreciate that. I£ tion at the time you wished to serve a we do not make sufficient water avail- tract of country for stock and domestic . able many areas already settled will be purposes. Water Conservation. [19 Aua., 1941.] Water Uonse1·vatwn. Mil

Mr. Ho!lSINGTON: Does the hon. mem­ Mr. VINCENT: No, but water can ber say that the object of the Keepit be conveyed by gravitation to a certain Dam is, more or less, to meet the re­ point in the Pilliga scrub, where the quirements of existing settlers? paper mill could be established. It Mr. VINCENT·: Largely, yes. The ob­ would mean the commencement of the paper-making industry in the State. ject is really to give greater security to present landholders, but, incidentally, Mr. HOllSINGTON: Cultivation may be carried out in that area! there will be some closer settlement. If, l\fr. VINCENT: Yes, but if this however, you attempt intensive settle­ scheme is to be made an irrigation ment, then, undoubtedly, you will throw scheme for the purpose of placing new some of the m·e::s in that part of the settlers on the land a difficulty will arise. country to the wolves, because there Water cannot be made available for two would not be sufficient water for stock purposes. If it is to be made available and domestic purposes. But something for stock and domestic purposes, exten­ further is embedded in the Keepit Dam sive irrigation works cannot be estab­ scheme, and that is that it makes avail­ lished. able a large quantity of water. Mr. HoRSINGTON: Could not the cleared Captain DuNN: The original object land be made available for closer settle­ of the dam was to· supply water for stock memt? purposes! Mr. VINCENT: No. The Pilliga l\fr. VINCENT : Yes, for stock and area, consisting of scrub land, consti­ domestic purposes in an area in which tutes one of the best forest areas in the the artesian supply is giving out. State. If it were cleared, the best crop Mr. HoRSLNGTo'N: No new closer likely to be obtained would also be re­ settlement? moved. Nature has endowed the area with a valuable crop. Mr. VINCENT: There will be some, l\fr. HonSINGTON: Does the hon. mem­ but it will be limited. Closer settle­ ber mean the crop of timber? ment is not the primary objective of l\Ir. VINCENT: Yes. It benefits not the scheme. The primary object was only the timber-getters and the saw­ to make secure the interests of the ex­ millers, but also the railways, and pro­ isting settlers. The supply of water in vides a greater measure of employment the reservoirs beneath the earth is than would be obtained if the timber diminishing, and Rs that is so other were cleared and the area placed under water will have to be made available settlement. for settlers. Another object of the Mr. HonsiNGTON: The timber event­ ually will be cut out! Keepit Dam scheme is to provide water l\fr. VINCENT: Timber should not for portions of the Pilliga scrub area, be removed without an effort being made so that waste timber can be pulped to replenish the reserves. and converted into paper. The last Mr. HonSING'rON: Are they being re­ Oovernme11t considered that if, on the plenished? one hand, we could provide wat€·r froll.l Mr. YIN CENT: Tens of thousand~ the dam for stock and domestic pur­ of acres have been treated in the JlOScs, and, on the other hand, bring area with very satisfactory results. into existence a secondary industry in l\fr. GnEra: What, in the opinion o£ a sparsely populated part of the State, departmental experts, are the paper­ two excellent results could be achieved. making possibilities of that area? The paper industry to which I refer l\Ir. VINCENT: They are very great. would tend to result in urbanisation in Timber taken therefrom some three that particular part of the State. years ago was submitted to thorough tests, and proved suitable for paper­ Mr. HOllS!l.\GTON: 'Viii the Keepit Dam making. The only difficulty is water. ·water the Pilliga scrub lands? The area is termed scrub, but in it i;, 452 W ate1· 0 onservation. [ASSEMBLY.] Wate1· Conservation. a • valua-ble forest consisting of cypress of waterholes. I adroit it rarely ceases -•pine and ironbark. The great advantage to flow; but there have been times in .. of cypress pine is that forest improve­ our history when that great river, drain­ tinent can be worked in conjunction with ing 300,000 square miles of territory, ·.the· paper-pulp industry. There is a actually has done so. very dense growth of timber. Tens of Mr. HoRSINGTON: That occurred .thousands of malformed trees could be twelve months ago! cleared out and better results achieved 1>1:r. VINCENT: If the head-waters ·With the trees remaining, if left with of that river could be dammed there sufficient space to expand. The waste would probably be water in it at all ;material could be used as stock for times; to serve some closer settle­ paper-pulp. ment along the banks of the river for Mr. GREIG: The forest is not being a certain distance from the centre of •so treated to-day! the stream. Settlement would not ex­ Mr. VINCENT: It is being thinned tend very far on either side of the river, out to-day, but, unfortunately, there is nor is there necessity for it. When I no market available for thinnings. visited the town of Menindie I saw The thinnings have to be taken out, the operations of unemployed men who stacked and burnt in order to get rid went there from Broken Hill and else­ of the fire peril. It is a great waste, where to establish themselves as market but it must be done if a proper rate gardeners. Some of them utilised small of growth of timber is to be maintained. pumping plants, and others carried water That is an aspect of Keepit Dam that from the river by means of buckets. •will appeal to all hon. members and Those who had pumping plants were able makes the construction of that dam to operate them and irrigate plots ofland doubly worth while. ,to produce vegetables, which compared in 1>ir. HoRSINGTON: That was not sug­ quality with anything produced in Aus­ gested when the proposal was before tralia or in any other part of the world. Parliament! Undoubtedly, that will be extended as time goes on, as the waters of the Dar­ Mr. VINCENT: No, the Forestry De­ ling River, that magnificent stream that partment came in late. The officials flows through the most arid territory tested the timbers in the area, and know in the State, are conserved by a series what can be done. of weirs and the tributaries dammed Security should be given to the at their heads. settlers already on the land, and Even in the better rainfall areas of consequently I hope the Government New South Wales the climate is so un­ will provide a sufficiency of money certain that there are times when the to enable that great work to proceed.· streams are dry. On the Clarence River, It also has been suggested that the at Nymboida and Dorrigo, hydro-electric establishment of dams in other parts of schemes have been established and a the State should be facilitated. I agree fairly substantial amount of power is that that should be done. There should derived from those undertakings, but it be a close investigation of the whole is found that the vagaries of the seasons -of the existing and potential water re­ are such that sometimes the water is sources of the State. Unfortunately, in insufficient to supply the turbines with ·the past, water conservation, like many the volume necessary to produce the other matters, has been rather haphazard. rated power necessary. It is true that no It· is now admitted that water conserva­ great headworks have been established on tion projects were started in the wrong the streams that feed these establish­ places. The head-waters of streams ments, and a drought finds the weakness should have been studied. The head­ in such undertakings and necessitates waters of the Darling River occur in the introduction of auxiliary plants that the north of New South Wales. That are driven eit11er by coal or fuel oil. river, in times past, has been a series Even in areas where the average rainfall Water Conservation. [19 Aua., 1941.) wate1' aonservation. is up to 82 inches per annum there ate the series of dams were esta-blished it periods when the creeks are dry and was not anticipated that the water im~ there is not a sufficient regular volume pounded would be used for irrigation. of water to supply the turbines gener­ The fact remains that under this system, ating power for those districts. we have nearly exhausted the water im-: Even in the metropolitan area we have pounded. So far as Sydney and .its been passing through the Biblical seven suburbs are concerned, the question is years of drought. It is found that the one only of storage to meet the greatest dams are rapidly giving out under the drought ever likely to be experienced. demands made upon the water im­ This has been a seven years' drought, but pounded therein. There are two or there should be sufficient storage to en­ three factors contributing to this short­ able the metropolitan area to withstand age. In the first place, there has been a twenty years' drought. There is a built up in the area upon which the cJatchment area of approximately metropolitan water supply depends a 3,800 square miles and an annual aver­ system under which water is used for age precipitation over the area of at. irrigation, although essentially the sys­ least 30 inches. tem was established for the pur­ Mr. HORSINGTON: Most of it is moun­ pose of domestic and secondary indus­ tainous country! try supply. There are surrounding the Mr. VINCFNT: I am being deliber­ city and in the inner suburbs market ately conservative in my figures. An­ gardens that make a tremendous draw inch of rain approximates 64,000 ·tons on the stored water. I do not know of of water .per square mile, . and, any other part of the world where a multiplied by 30 and the square domestic supply system is expected mileage, this gives an enormous to serve as well for irrigation pur­ quantity. Even allowing for wastage poses. It is not the fault of the present amounting to half that quantity, w~ or any other Government, nor is it the should still have the potentiality of con~ fault of the Water Board. It is some­ serving 2,400 tons of water per person. thing that has grown. A drought such per annum. The trouble is that the as this has never before been experi­ water is not conserved, and a lot of it enced in New South Wales, and in the is allowed to run to waste. Approxi­ past applications have been granted for mately one-third of the precipitation extension of water to the hills and ~:;vaporates, another one-third is run off; other districts. It is now found that and the final third finds its way into those who of late years have been brought into the scheme have first call the earth, but could 'be impounded if Ollr­ dams had the capacity to hold it. I upon water for gardening purposes. see no need for looking to the Sp.owy. The private gardener may not even Hiver to supply Sydney with water. · water his garden with the rose watering can, whereas the orchardist or market :Mr. ToNGE: Why not~ It is the best gardener may still sprinkle his market water available! garden or orchard at certain periods. Mr. VINCENT: What is wrong whk Captain DuNN: I think secondar.y in­ the water we have at present? 'l'he dustries hav.e been the biggest drain on money that would be spent on the Snowy the water supply! River scheme would provide all the water lfr. VINCENT: I would say that facilities that we need. Already we ha:ve the domestic service is a bigger drain a perennial supply, and if we had faeili,:. than secondary industry, but it was a] .. ties to impound and conserve that wa:Wr ways contemplated that the service here we should have enough for a population would be available for secondary in­ of 8,000,000, equal to the size of Londolil. dustry. I am now speaking of the prac­ Yet we have engineers, no doubt loo&iu-g: tice that has been built up under which for nice big jobs, and over-enthusia,etie water is taken for irrigation purposes persons talking about bringing .(1~ within the metropolitan area. When waters of the Snow·y River to Sy@f'y,.a. 4:54 lV ater Conse1·vation. [ASSEMBLY.] W ate1· C onse1'vation.

distance of 350 miles, at an estimated a·position to attack those who are hold­ cost of £32,000,000! The suggestion is ing up the project that he espoused with ridiculous. It would 'be all right if the such enthusiasm this afternoon. I shall scheme were necessary, but it is not. It direct my remarks to the leader of the is merely reaching for a star, caprici­ Opposition, in particular, because I know ously. The waters of the Snowy River that he is a reasonably-minded man, who should be kept for the purpose of gen­ will support any policy that makes for erating electricity and to serve the area the progress of the State. Apparently, of Victoria that they are now feeding. the only matter on which we are at vari­ Mr. SHEAHAN (Yass) [5.5]: I can ance is the method of finance to 'be adop­ see no objection to the House agreeing ted in carrying out such a programme. to the motion. My only criticism is that During the course of his speech on the it does not go far enough, and does not motion for the adoption of the Address incorporate in its terms a determination in Reply, the leader of the Opposition that this House should intimate to a cer­ referred to the structure upon which tain extra-parliamentary body that deals our economy is built, and he said that with the allocation of loan funds, that if it were interfered with in a way ample money should be made available that would upset its continuing to func­ to provide irrigation and water -conser­ tion in the manner that has persisted vation facilities, and additional social since the days of the discovery of Santa services for this State. Claus, financial chaos would result. The hon. member should re-orientate his Mr. CHA.FFEY: The hon. member did views upon finance . .not say anything about that extra-par­ liamentary body in his electioneering I do not propose to criticise the Loan gpeeches! Council at length, but I suggest that if the hon. member for Tamworth were Mr. SHEAHAN: It is only during able to attend one of its meetings to the last fortnight that the Loan Council advocate the water needs of his dis­ has harassed State Governments by its trict it might be influenced by his (:Xasperating attitude. Had the hon. eloquent and temperate utterances. In member gone to Y ass during the election my district we have · the large and campaig-n, he "·ould have heard me say­ pioneering water conservation scheme ing much about the control of the pre­ of Burrinjuck, but I should like to see sent financial system, which operates to money expended to lock the waters of the detriment of democratic govern­ the Tumut Ri~r, tNe purest to be ment. The hon. member should be alive found in the State, and which are fed not only to the necessity for conserving by perennial springs and snow. That additional water, but also to the neces­ could be done at Talbingo without detri­ sity to use that water properly and legi­ ment to landowners in the· area, and timately to increase the productivity of it would enable the Government to our land. In the past it has been the supplement the present supply to ambition of many men to become known settlers at Leeton and Griffith. as "roads and bridges" members in I remember-more years ago than I care this Chamber. Apparently the hon. to realis&-the construction of the member for Tamworth is vying with me Burrinjuck Dam when I was a boy, to become lmown as a "water" membe;. and the beginning of the towns of Mr. CHAFFEY: The hon. member has Leeton and Griffith in the Murrum­ water on the brain! bidgee irrigation area. I recall those Mr. SHEAHAN: I know that there towns when they were nothing but is plenty of water in the Burrinjuck canvas huts. To-day both Leeton and Dam, a'nd to spare. Apparently the hon. Griffith are a great commercial asset to member l1as not suflicient water at the State, and that is attributable to Bowling Alley, and I suggest that he the wise policy adopted by the Govern­ should visit Burrinjuck, when he would ment of the day. I say that without gain information that would put him ·in any political significance, because the Water Conservation. [19 Aua., 1941.] Water Conservation. 455· men r,>sponsible for the construction of was built from credit issued by the Com­ the Bu.~rinjuck Dam did not belong to monwealth Bank when it was the people's the Labour party alone. They visualised bank. That railway, which was built the future, even at the risk of being with money issued by the Co=on­ charged with having water on the brain. wealth Bank, passes througl1 a poor As long as I am in this House, in sea­ tract of country, and the importance of son and out of season, I shall advocate the work cannot be compared with the biblically, politically, and oratorically, importance of building dams for the the necessity for water conservation, be­ provision of water throughout the State. cause I lelieve it is in the interests of Irrigation is nothing new, nor is it the community generally. The only anything fantastic. The Romans and question that arises is how we are go­ Egyptians practised irrigation thou­ ing to get the necessary money. I hate sands of years ago. The late Sir Samuel to hear that question asked, and I have :McCaughey, the pioneer of irrigation lived through sufficient generations to in New South Wales, deserves a great have seen too much money wasted on tribute. On one occasion, while travel­ things that do not matter. I have seen ling in the train, I had a conversation money raised for the purpose of destruc­ with Sir Samuel on the subject of the tion, and to-day I see it raised for the Murrumbidgee irrigation area. He told same purpose, but when it comes to the me of his early struggles in the dis­ question of raising money for reproduc­ trict in which Leeton and Griffith are tive works of immense value to the now progressive towns. He said he first State, that is a different matter. We obtained water from a dam that he dug then see the old red herring drawn across when it rained and carried it round in the trail, and we are told that, for the a cask. He also said that the man time being, we can get no money for for ~hom he worked gave him fifty sheep, these necessary purposes. The old argu­ and that was how he. commenced as a ment may be worn threadbare, but it squatter in the Yanco district. I have has failed to reveal to the intelligence been told that Sir Samuel l\{cCaughey of some people that there is a way in was very well respected, and he is en­ which monev can be found for reproduc­ titled to the credit due to him for tive works . ., The towns of Griffith and pioneering irrigation in New South Leeton have become centres of prosper­ ·wales. The extra-parliamentary groups ity. If that is so; why cannot we make who seek to dictate what financial assist­ other towns the centres of similar pros­ ance this State shall receive, and the perity? other day the leader of the Opposition Prior to the outbreak of war there referred to the "new order." were many unemployed in this country, Mr. TREATT: In deprecatory terms! and hon. 'members on both sides of the l\'lr. SHEAHAN: Yes, and if irriga­ House were concerned about the posi­ tion and water conservation works mean tion. All hon members wanted to see part of the new order that is coming in the best done to alleviate the position this State, does the leade.>: d the Op­ which was the result of the way in position deprecate that? The gentle­ which we had managed our own affairs. man who controls the destinites of the I believe there is a corrective for our British Nation, Mr. Churchill, says we economic ills, and that is the recon­ should pray for the new order, and Mr. struction of our financial system, so l\'lenzies, I think, has said the same that we can do what the hon. member thing. for Tamworth asks for. In order to do :Mr. TREATT: The leader of the Op­ that we shall have to utilise the credit position meant that it ought to come resources of this country. The para­ by work and not by word! mount example before us all, no matter what is our political creed, is the con­ :Mr. SHEAHAN: That is not what struction of the transcontinental railway he said. I suggest to the hon. member from Port Augusta to Kalgoorlie which for Tamworth that when he visits the· 456 W ate?· Oonse1·vation. · [ASSEMBLY.] Water Conservation.

towns and villages of his electorate he The water supply of Sydney should be· should tell the people that a new fin­ made secure, and that can be brought ancial superstructure will have to be about only by implementing the Snowy constructed on the old one if the things River supply, which can be brought direct he hopes for are to be realised. I should to the city by gravitation. There are n<>· like to see another £1,000,000 allocated engineering disabilities. I£ the Snowy for the construction of a dam on the River scheme were adopted Burrinjuck~ Tumut River beyond Talbingo. Not so which is liable to drought conditions~ very long ago statements were made could be provided with a supplementary that if a catastrophe occurred at Bur­ supply and this would ensure regular­ rinjuck the constituents of Temora irrigation in the Temora electorate. It would have been without water. I pro­ is extraordinary that an hon. member­ pose, however, to reserve my remarks on should oppose the utilisation of the Burrinjuck Dam for another occasion. Snowy River water supply. Forty years In my opinion, there should be a more ago, by the efforts of Sir John Forrest~ concerted effort on the part of the Gov­ water was carried about the same dis­ ernment to conserve water. As I sug­ tance to supply Ralgoorlie, Western gested in the course of my speech dur­ Australia. ing the debate on the Address in Reply, Mr. JACKETT: What is the distance of there is a more paramount need for water the Snowy River scheme~ to-day than ever before. I am told that Mr. SHEAHAN: About 360 miles~ when the hon. member for Neutral but there are no engineering difficulties. Bay was Minister for Works he thor­ The supply will be carried by gravita­ oughly appreciated the need for water tion and no pumping is necessary. in country districts. I am reminded }.fr. GoLLAN: The water that supplies that on one occasion, during a Minis­ Kalgoorlie is carried a distance of be­ terial tour, he saw taps running and tween 400 and 500 miles, from the Swan water being wasted. He ordered the River. driver of his car to stop, _alighted and ~Ir. SHEAHAN: The hon. member­ turned off the running water. I commend for Raleigh stated that there was suffi­ him for that action because I realise that cient storage on the S,ydney catchment he ·appreciated the value of water. The area to supply the water needs of the people who live in the city of Sydney, city. In recent months·, housewives have householders and business men alike, been afraid to use water, not knowing know the value of water. However, the whether they were to be dealt with for hon. member for Raleigh, in dealing a breach of the board's restrictions. with the water supply of Sydney, depre­ This should not be allowed to happen cated the adoption of the Snowy River in this enlightened age. The fact is that scheme to supplement the present in­ Sydney is in the grip of a drought. adequate suppl;y at Sydney. I join It is a serious indictment of the per­ issue with him for apparentl,y there is sons ··who have been in charge of the not even enough water in Sydney to water supply for the last decade. take an A.P.O. powder-whether a Vin­ Mr. DrcKSON: The hon. member for­ cent's or otherwise. Every day hon. Raleigh said the catchment area wa& members hear that additional re­ sufficient to supply the needs of Sydney! !trictions have been placed on the use of water in the metropolitan area. If Mr. SHEAHAN: The hon. member­ tne storage reservoirs are sufficient but said the catchment area was there, pro­ vided rain fell. I suggest that this i& have not a sufficient supply of water in planning in anticipation because it i& them to meet requirements it is a sad not known whether or not it will rain. commentary upon the competency of The alternative is the adoption of the those who haYc been in charge of the Snowy River scheme. It would. Metropolitan \Vater, Sewerage and afford a perennial supply of pure Drainage Board over the past j'ears. water, not .. chlorinated. This is a Water 0 onservation. [19·Aua., 1941.] W ate I' 0 onse1·vation. 457' pressive Parliament and a pro­ llfr. SHEAHAN: If there has not. gressive policy should be adopted. been over-production, can the hon. mem­ The Government, in its election pledge ber tell me why it has been necessary on lOth May last, made it plain that in times of glut to dispose of vegetables water conservation would play an im­ and fruit outside the Heads when many portant part in its policy. Some people unfortunate people have been without suggest that water did not play such an the means to buy them? Water conser­ important part in the election cam­ vation may be linked with production paign; and that it may have been beer and irrigation as matters of vital impor­ or something else. Since I have been tance to the State. No matter what may in the House I have tried to ta1k more be said in regard to finance, those prob­ about water than anything else, but lems must "be overcome. The hon. mem­ perhaps, with experience and age, my ber for Tamworth is enthusiastic t() speeches will have the acid bite of those obtain for his electorate all that is neces­ of the hon. member for Neutral Bay. sary to make it a thriving, prosperous I support the motion so that the Govern­ district, and to bring to it, if possible~ ment may know I stand for the full the benefit of closer settlement. There­ protection of our water resources. fore, he must join the New Order. All Where water is properly stored, country hon. members know that he was an In­ people may enjoy amenities such as elec­ dependent-at any rate for election pur­ poses-and there has been some mild tric light and heating that have been flirting with him since the House as­ denied them for centuries. Those privi­ sembled. He should now accept my in­ leges are necessary to-day because the vitation to join the New Order and agi­ price of wood in country towns and vil­ tate for a new financial superstructure lages is becoming exorbitant-in cer­ that will provide the funds to enable tain towns in my electorate it is 13s. a these works to be carried out. This quarter. method of finance is supported not only Those are the remarks I wish to by the Labour party, but by several highly-intelligent people. I think the address to hon. members on the motion hon. member for :Willoughby is not proposed by the hon. member for Tam­ averse to an extension of credit if it will worth, who comes from a district rich bring something to Willoughby. I in­ in fertility and lending itself to closer vite the hon. member for Tamworth to settlement. When I hear closer settle­ contemplate that if he obtains more ment proposals advanced, I am filled water for his electorate and more farm­ with scepticism, because I think of the ers are settled in his district, his seat settlement scheme of the late Sir Joseph will become less secure. Carruthers, which had for its slogan, "A Mr. 0HAFFEY: I am not interested million farmers on a million farms." in the new settlers; I am interested in Since that day there has been the same protecting those already there! party almost perpetually in occupation Mr. SHEAHAN : The difference be­ of the Treasury benches, but what has tween the hon. member and I is that I become of the million farmers on a mil­ am interested in placing new settlers on the land. I know that there will be lion farms? many news settlers returning from the :M:r. JACKETT: The stage has been war, and they will not be prepared t()· reached where it is said to be neces­ accept what soldiers were promised dur­ sary to curtail production! ing the last war. If the hon. member· llfr. SHEAHAN: That is one of the does not want these new settlers in his economic ills that must be faced. Does electorate, I want them in mine. What­ the hon. member suggest that there has ever action is taken with regard to water been over-production? conservation and irrigation, I hope the Mr. JACKETT: No! Government in power will assist in, 458 Water Conservation. [ASSEMBLY.] Water Conservation. the settlement of those men who to-day favoured few in the Tamworth district, are fighting so nobly in the cause of the project could show a profit, especi­ freedom. I suggest that Labour will then ally if it did not bring about additional be in office, because it is fully seized of closer settlement. the necessity of the full development of The leader of the Opposition said the country by >Vater conservation and that, because of the war, we should be irrigation. thankful for the small amount of money Mr. ENTICKN AP (Murrumbidgee) made available to the State by the Loan [5.39]: I represent an area practically Council. Because such a small sum wholly covered by irrigation projects, of money has been made available many and I claim to know something about projects that were intended to supply the subject. The motion moved by the foodstuffs for the troops will have to be hon. member for Tamworth was a very seriously curtailed, consequently the war worthy one, but, to my mind, it did not effort is being interfered with by the go nearly far enough. As the bon. action of the Loan Council. It is a member for Yass said, the matter shortsighted policy to prevent the exten­ is bound up with that of finance to sion of essential activities that are sup­ a serious extent. An initial amo~nt of plying war needs. w·e shall have to give £9,000,000 was expended on the Bur­ our attention to post-war problems, as rinjuck dam, in my electorate, for the a number of wounded and disabled men purpose of providing a huge irrigation are already returning from the front, scheme, and already produce to the value and something must be done to provide of £1,500,000 per annum is coming from for their future. My electorate takes the area served by it, which shows that second place to none in providing its it is a sound investment. However the ratio of enlistments. The population existing storage i.s insufficient to ~eet of my district is relatively small, any extension of agricultural pursuits but already over 700 have enlisted in tbe districts affected, and, rather than from it. Those men have gone spend such a staggering amount on re­ overseas to fight to preserve our pairs to Burrinjuck, an equal sum privileges and rights, and they must should have been spent on the construc­ be given a chance to make a rea­ tion of the Tumut dam, which would sonable living when they return. They have provided all the additional water have been accustomed to irrigation ac­ required for the area. tivities all their lives, and later they The hon. member for Tamworth said should be given an opportunit,y to settle that he wants the people in his district on the land if they so desire. Now that a Labour Government is in office to be supplied with an irrigation scheme. it is unlikely that we shall see a repe­ tition of the blunders that were com­ Mr. CHAFFE.Y: I want a water conser­ mitted after the 1914-1918 war. vation scheme for those already settled in the area! The Premier went to the country with a policy of expansion for the State of Mr. ENTICKNAP: There must be an New South 'Vales, and he was returned. jrrigation scheme if those people are His plans have been thwarted by the to be supplied with water for their stock tragic action of the Loan Council. The and domestic purposes. The bon. mem­ position will have to be righted, and, ber wants the expenditure of a huge instead of tackling the problem by sum of money to provide for the needs methods snch as set out in the motion, of a favoured few. I have different there should be a general protest. ideas. I believ.e that a majority of the Mr. WrLLIA~fS: The motion is not & people of the State are entitled to re­ sincere one! ceive benefit when money is spent on Mr. ENTICKNAP: It certainly does. :irrigation in New South Wales. It is not go far enough. It is all "hooey" improbable that, if this large sum of to say that all our finance must be money were spent on the needs of a directed to war efforts. The Government Watc1· Conservation. [19 Auc., 1941.] Water Conservation. 459 should not be dependent on the grace Ilfr. LA wsox: Does not the hon. mem­ of the Loan Council, and, as an exten­ ber think that New South Wales should sion of our primary industries is essen­ have some of the Snowy Hiver water? tial to aid the war effort, we must, by Mr. SEIFFERT: Yes, I believe· there hook or by crook, get the necessary is su'fficient water in the Snowy River money to provide further irrigation to augment not only the Murrumbidgee schemes. supply, but for hydro-electric schemes. Mr. SEIFFERT (Monaro) [5.50]: It The Snowy River is best adapted fur seems strange that the hon. member hydro-electric purposes, because it guar­ who moved the motion, and the hon. antees a continuity of supply. I admit member who seconded it, should have that the land in the Monaro electorate directed their remarks to the State Gov­ does not lend itself specially to irri­ ernment, becau1k I feel they should gation. We do not claim that we want have been directed to their colleagues Snowy Hiver water for that purpose, in the Federal sphere, who more or less control the votes on the Loan Council. but we do claim that it should be used Either these hon. members spoke with for hydro electric purposes. The pecple their tongues in their cheeks, or they of Ilfonaro are not parochial as sowe disagree with the scntimeuts voiced last hon. members on the Opposition benches week by the leader of the Opposition, are. If a storage dam were built at when he seemed to laud the members Jindabyne there would be sufficient of the Loan Council for depriving this water to augment the supply. I sug­ State of loan money. It would seem gest that if the previous Government, that the hon. member for Tamworth instead of building small dams and was not sincere. reservoirs in various parts of the State, One or two matters to which bon. where there is no guaranteed contin­ members have referred need correction. uity of flow, had constructed dams on First of all it has been stated that water should be conveyed from the Snowy the Snowy Hiver, the pcsition woulrl River to S;ydney. It may be as well to have been "'ery different. But I differ point out that the Snowy River flows from those hon. members who say that through Victoria, and I should say that money should be spent on the cuustruc­ under the Constitution the people of tion of reservoirs for the purrose of Victoria have riparian rights to that assisting men already on the land in a big water. We are also told that the Snowv way to improve their properties and make River water should be diverted to SUl~­ themselves more secure. Probably those plement the :Murrumbidgee Irrigation hon. members haYe good reason for not Area supply. Knowing the Snowy wishing to see more irrigation schemes River as I do, I believe that it con';ains sufficient water not only to supply the carried out, because with increased closer city of Sydney and suburbs, but to sup­ settlement to its fullest degree. as it ply a city probably four times as large; should be, they would probably not be but that does not affect the question o£ able to represent their electorates as riparian rights. they do to-day. Hon. members of the Jl,fr. TREATT: vVas there· not an ar­ Opposition g·ive lip service to deceJJLra­ rangement · with the Conunonwealtlt lisation projects, but do not carry them Government regarding the Snowy River any further, for the reason that decen­ water? tralisation means industrial activity in­ Mr. SEIFFERT: Yes. When Can­ the towns and, therefore, there would berra was established there was an ar­ be more industrial Yotes in the fac­ rangement that the Commonwealth tories. Go~ernment should have some claim on the waters of the Snowy River for the Mr.• T. T. REID: Then how does the purpose of augmenting. the Cotter River hon. member account for the intcnsiye· supply. settlement on the North Coast! 460 Farmer)s Relief [ASSEMBLY.] (Amendment) Bill.

~[r. SEIFFERT: The closer settle­ The Premier went on to say what the ment portions of the North Coast are Labour party, if elected to power, was largely conservative. prepared to do in the way of review and Mr. MAm: The hon. member is mak­ cancellation of settlers' debts to the ing a very interesting speech! Crown; but he made it quite plain that Mr. SEIFFERT: I hope the leader it did not contemplate acting alone in of the Opposition has found it so, be­ that regard. He said : cause I feel that if greater voice were To do so would be simply to strengthen given to the sentiments I have expres­ the position of mo1·tgagees and general sed the State would be in a better posi­ creditors without in any way benefiting the tion. At the last State elections the settlers. Eve1·ybody concerned must take a realistic view of the position. Irrecover­ people seemed to realise that tb reai able book debts are valueless. It is a saner representatives of the State belong to thing to realise this, and to co-operate in· the Labour party. I desire to say again a scheme which will raise from hundreds of that hon. members who favour the whole­ families the burden of a hopeless future, and which will enable them to look the sale diversion of the Snowy River waters world in the face once more, than it is to to other parts of the State should re­ insist on "rights" which can never be worth member that the Victorian people have the paper on which they are set down. certain riparian rights. Interpolating my own observations Debate adjourned. here, I might say with confidence that Government business called on pu1'­ I am sure that both sides of this House suant to sessional orde1·. are in complete agreement with the prin­ [Mr. Speaker left the chair at 6 p.m. ciple that in the national interest :finan­ The Ho~tse res·umed at 7.30 p.m.] cially embarrassed farmers must be re­ FAR.MERS' RELIEF (AMENDMENT) lieved of their burdens. The Labour BILL. party, however, feels that the present Mr. TULLY CGoulburn) (Minister farmers' relief legislation in force in for Lands) [7.38] : I move: the State is not a complete and effec­ That leave be given to bring in a bill to tiv.e measure, and the bill I am introduc­ extend the time for the lodgment of appli­ ing will make certain amendments to cations for stay orders; to remove restric­ that legislation, which, we feel sure, are tions on the right to grant stay orders; to provide for the reconstitution of the Rural essential if it is to be the means of Reconstruction Board; to make further pro­ genuine and effective relief of debt-· vision for and in relation to the adjustment Lurdened farmers. At a later stage in of the debts and liabilities of certain farm­ the rural policy speech, the Premier ers; for these and other purposes to amend the Farmers' Relief Act, 1932-1940, and made direct reference to the moratorium certain other Acts in certain respects; and provisions of the Farmers' Relief Act. for purposes connected therewith. He stated: I do not think I can do better in bring­ No scheme of rural rehabilitation and ing forward this bill than quote :from reform would be complete without an amend­ the rural policy speech of the Hon. ment to the momtorium provisions of the Farmers' Relief Act to remove the barrier the Premier, which :was delivered at to complete protection created by the pre­ West Wyalong, in the south-west of this sence of disclaimer provisions. These are State, on the 23rd April last. On that unnecessary in legislation of this nature, occasion the Premier said : and in view of the situation brought about by the war, are causing hardship to thou­ So far as the South-West is concerned, sands of farmers in the State, who are now Labour realises that only drastic action will at the mercy of their creditors. meet a situation which has been allowed to drag on tragically for years, and to bring I may say that the section dealing down upon hard-working families suffering with disclaimers will give relief to and misery for which no one knowing the thousands of farmers, particularly in history of this area could possibly blame them. The time for playing with this prob­ the south-western section of the State. lem and others of the same kind is long The Premier was unequivocal in his past.... The moment has arrived for the State and other c1·editors concerned to cut statement, that Labour intended to rem-. .their losses. edy this state of affairs by removing the· Farme,.'s Relief [19 Auo., 1941.] (Amendment) Bill. 461 disclaimer provisions from the Act. He a general knowledge of primary pro­ then referred to the Rural Reconstruc­ duction and the other one who has a tion Board, constituted under the Far­ specialised knowledge in the branch of mers' Relief Act, and promised that it primary production with which the would be re-constituted to give equal board is dealing. I am not going int~ representation to farmers and creditors. further details at this stage. I com­ Labour believes that on all bodies deal­ mend the measure to the earnest con­ ing with rural affairs the producers sideration of bon. members. I shall, should have their own representation of course, enter into more detail when in a strength at least equal to that of moving the second reading. any other interests that may be included. Mr. MAIR (Albury) [7.47]: I am The foregoing comprised a vital and im­ pleased that the Minister is going to portant part of Labour's rural policy, give further details at the second read­ for which the Government has received ing stage. I draw the conclusion that a complete and overwhelming mandate, there are one or two fundamental and the measure I am now introducing changes in the proposed reconstruc­ is designed to give effect to these mat­ tion with which I wholeheartedly dis­ ters, particularly that section dealing agree; once again, mainly because I be­ with rural interests. lieve in honouring obligations, and dis­ Very briefly, then, the bill will be approve of repudiation. A disclaimer found to contain three main principles. . means that a farmer goes to a store­ The first is the inclusion in the Farm­ keeper and says: "Mr. Brown, if you ers' Relief Act of provisions to meet will give me credit for £150 for urgent cases where a voluntary adjustment of needs to carry on my occupation, I will a fanuer's debts cannot be concluded. under no conditions claim protection I may say that this voluntary basis by applying to the Farmers' Relief has considerably lengthened the time Board or the Rural Reconstruction in which it has been possible to ad­ Board for assistance." The credit is just the affairs of settlers, particularly obtained on that definite promise, but in the south-west. Under the pro­ the Jl.iinister now states that he is go­ visions of the bill it is believed that ing to r.limiuate entirely the promise of it will be possible to deal much more the payment of due debts. In justice expeditiously with the adjustment of to the JI.Enister, I admit that there the affairs of the farmers than in recent are somG cases where, since entering years. Victoria is an example in this into the contract in the form regard. The second principle is the re­ of a disclaimer, a farmer's position moval from the Act of the existing dis­ may have deteriorated very considerably. claimer provisions, and the third is the Because of that he may be warranted in reconstitution of the Rural Reconstruc­ seeking some form of relief, or perhaps tion Board so as to give further repre­ a means of escape. However, the aver­ sentation to farmers. age farmer does not look for ways of It is not my intention to go into detail escape from his obligations. He is an at this stage, but the Rural Reconstruc­ honourable man, who desires to pay his tion Board at present, and for some years, debts. Although the Ministry may has comprised five members, a chairman imagine that it appeals to such a man by showing him a means of escape from and four lay members, one representing the private creditors, one representing the his obligations, I assure the Minister that the average farmer does not appre­ farmers and two representing the Gov­ ciate such a proposal. Therefore I shall ernment. Labour has given a definite await with great interest an explanation vromise that of the four lay members of this method of evading obligations at least two must represent primary duly entered into and which, if evaded, 1woducers. To fulfil this promise, it is will have the direct result of restricting vroposed that one representative of the credit. The farmer is well served by primary producers shall be a. man with storekeepers in our community, and • '462 Ji'armer's Relief [ASSEMBLY.] (Amendment) Bill.

those in this Chamber who are farmers Compulsory debt adjustment is now too know that the storekeeper serves a v.ery late. Perhaps it would have been of useful purpose in our structure. advantage in the early stages of the }.:J:r. Honsr:NGTOX: Where did he get his downward trend of primary industries, money? Out of the farmers! particularly in connection with mora­ Mr. !fAIR: I do not wish to enter torium legislation. Sound reasons could into such a controversy, as the interjec­ have heen advanced for such action al­ tion shows a gross ignorance as to the ways barring the stigma of compul~ion position. The average farmer appreci­ and repudiation. Surely hon. members ates what is done for him by the store­ realise that if a debt is created and a keeper. The two are dovetailed. In Government brings in a form of com­ crises the storekeeper carries the farmer position for its compulsor:y adjustment, to the extent of millions of pounds. He compelling a creditor to take 12s. 6d. in trusts him. This proposal will destroy the pound, trouble must result. The credi­ that trust and bring about a position in tor's obligations may be even greater which the storekeeper will refuse to take than those of the debtor. It is all very such a risk in future. He will say to well to say that the creditor is free of himself, "Why should I, if it is possible obligations, and that a wealthy man can ·for any Government to find ways and well afford to have his assets written means of depriving me of my legal down. Even the mere tyro in finance rights?" I speak not as a storekeeper, k.nows t'hat a creditor has his obliga­ but as a farmer, and I know that, gen­ tions, that a storekeeper has to settle erally speaking, farmers will not appre­ with his wholesaler, the wholesaler with ciate this move by the Government. the manufacturer, the manufacturer with I believe that the Minister is en­ the financial institutions, and so on deavouring to try to bring about a bet­ t~rough the scale. A form of compul­ ter balance in the personnel of the siOn destroys that confidence upon which board, and I commend him for that. I o~r credit structure is built, and par­ heard him say that it is his intention tiCularly does that apply to primary to have an even balance between store­ industries. I will fight to the very death keepers, who are creditors, and rural any form of compulsory debt adjust­ interests; the farmers. Later the l\finis­ ment, and anything that causes this or ter said that there would be two repre­ any other Government in New South sentatives of the primary producers in Wales to have thrown about it an atmos­ a board composed of four. As one of phere .of repudiation. As a farmer, rep­ them will be a Government nominee, I resentmg thousands of other farmers, I should like to know where is the balance say that we can settle our debts without spoken of by the :Minister. Will he ex­ repudiation and without compulsion. plain that more fully in his second There are other ways than that of doing reading speech? it. I await with interest the second Then comes the question of adjust­ reading speech of the Minister. ment of .~ebts. The Minister said that Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER (Tenter- it has been the policy in the past to field) [7.58]: I realise that very little adjust debts on a voluntary basis. I need be said at the introductory stage claim to have some knowledge of the of a measure, but I should like to make subject, as I bro11ght in the measure one or two remarks upon the proposed dealing with rural reconstruction. It bill. I am sure that hon. members are is my opinion that, generally speaking, beginning to realise the real value and the voluntary adjustment of debts has significance of the various policy proved satisfactory, with some excep­ speeches made by the Premier. I notice tions. My opinion is borne out by re­ that, as each l\finister introduces a sults, as something like 2,500 debts have measure, he takes the greatest possible been composed voluntarily, and a sum care to produce the voluminous docu­ of approximately £2,000,000 has been ment, bearing upon its coYer the pic­ ·made available for debt adjustment. ture of the Premier, and read from it • Farmer's Relief [19 Aua., 1941.] (Amendment) Bill. 463 chapter and verse of what was put be­ never been in the position that either fore the people, adding: "That was the they are not looking for aid or that policy on which this Government re­ someone is not looking to give it to them. ceived an overwhelming mandate to do This House should now give serious con­ everything that is written in that sideration to the ever rising costs imposed speech"-and seemingly everything that upon the primary producer. Another is not in it. I hope that bon. members little tax is referred to in the Premier's and the public generally will pay special policy speech, and a few other little attention to the f?Crupulous care with loads are to be imposed on the farmer. which the Minister and his colleagues Mr. HoRSINGTON: And everybody else! have quoted the Premier's policy Lt.-Oolonel BRUXNER: The hon. speeches, because it would appear that member said something that was pretty it is the intention of the Government to true-that the storekeeper got his money introduce certain nebulous m_easures from the farmer. The hon. member gets that are not mentioned in the speech it from the farmer. Everybody gets it of his Excellency the Governor. I take from the farmer. But conditions are it that anything that is not in this pub­ becoming such that soon there will be lished document did not receive the no more to get. overwhelming endorsement of the people. Mr. HonsrNGTON: As I said on a previous occasion, I feel it is the responsibility of my colleagues Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER: It seems that and myself to watch that the Govern­ I cannot stand on my feet without hav­ ment does no more than it has a man­ ing to meet a storm of interjections from date for and, in some cases, no less. hon. members on the Government The people are anxious to see the Gov­ benches. I do wish they would wait until ernment abolish that very heav.y impost I ask for them. }{easure after meas­ known as the unemployment relief and ure has been brought down in this social services tax, which the Premier House with the object of relieving the said he would do. I dare say that in position of the farmers who have always due time we shall see a bill brought been in difficulties, and I feel that we down to do that, backed up by chapter should do much better if WP. perman­ and verse from t,he Premier's policy ently improved the farmers' position. speech. Although bon. members who But in doing so, hon. members on the now sit on this side of the House are Government benches will find that we not very numerous, and never have shall have to impinge hard on other been-- sections of the community who do not suffer from the vagaries of the seasons Mr. SHEAHA~: And never will be! and of the markets as the farmer does. Lt.-Oolonel BRUXNER: We have From what the Minister has said, this practical experience on the land measure contains all the things we read and of land industries-probably a of in the Premier's policy speech. If the greater experience than any other sec­ bill means putting on the board a prac­ tion in the House. ·we have had to face tical representative of the primary pro­ up to the difficulties of the men whom the Minister now proposes to assist, ducers who will do a fair job, the and over the ;years we have seen made l.{inister will get no criticism from us. many successful attempts to pass legi&­ I am glad to know that the Govern­ lation to deal with some of the most ment at least realises thr. value of giv· vexed problems a:liecting land settlement. ing representation to the representatives All of us who have had experience ask of the primary industries. I recall that why the Government-and I have been on one occasion the hon. member for a member of this House for twenty-one Auburn, when Premier, brought down years-almost every time a new one comes a bill to reconstitute the Government in, has to bring down a measure to put Savings Bank Board, and we strongly the primary producers right. They have objected to it because it contained no 464: Fanne1·'s Relief [ASSEMBLY.] (Amendment) Bill.

provision for a representative of the pri­ a number of years; but the only effec­ mary producers on ·the board, although tive legislation is a reduction in the .many of the farmers were "frozen" at capital value of the land from which he the time. I moved an amendment, is endeavouring to produce. To do that ~nd it is to be seen in Hansa1·d of the the economic system must be altered, period, that a representative of the not only for the farmer, but for the whole primary producers be included on the of the people of the State. board, but the Government of the day The leader of the Opposition men­ refused to accept it and the primary tioned a fundamental fact when he said producers never had a representative that the storekeeper was a very good ,on the board. However, time has friend to the farmer and gave him a lot .shown the value of such a representa­ , of credit. Hon. members know that the tive, and the primary producers are now storekeeper is merely a business man; to have one. That shows that my he is not a philanthropist, and he can ..amendment has borne fruit. give credit or extend the credit only Mr. DAVIDSON (Oobar) [8.8]: to the extent that the wholesaler will "There seems to be something funda­ allow him. However, he said, the whole­ mentally wrong with the primary pro­ sale firm can go only as far as the manu­ ducers, not only of this State, but of facturer will allow him. And then he the Commonwealth. This bill amends said that the storekeeper, the whole­ the farmers' relief legislation passed saler and the manufacturer must de­ by the Government in 1932. The ob­ pend upon the financial institutions. ject of that measure was to rectify the Legislation is necessary to assist the financial position of the farmers, and farmer to remain on his holding until was for twelve months, but after twelve a Government is prepared to assist him months its operation was extended for :financially over his difficulties. The .a further similar period, and iL has leader of the Opposition also mentioned been extended time and again, until that the removal of disclaimers was re­ -:11ow. The farmers now :find themselves pudiation. How nauseous it is to hear in as bad a position as they were and, that word used time out of number therefore, there must be something when a I,abour Government introduces fundamentally wrong. In some cases a measure! Every measure that is in­ they are even in a worse position than troduced by a Labour Government is they were in 1932. Evidently the whole characterised as repudiation. ~conomy of the farmer is wrong, and :Mr. RrcHARDSON: Not all of them; that is the result of legislation passed only some of them! by anti-Labour Governments, who rep­ resent the financial institutions. In the Mr. DAVIDSON: Every hon. mem­ first place, they were placed on land ber knows that it is necessary to give the board the power to remove these dis­ under conditions that were uneconomic. claimers and that economic pressure is It was impossible for them to make a brought to bear on the farmers by some 'Success, or even a fair and reasonable living for themselves or their families. of the persons who advance money, goods or credit. They do it because of the They have been there ever since and interest they receive from the farmers will remain there until a Labour Gov­ "Crnment in this State or in the Oom­ from that credit. I am pleased the bill will rectify a number of anomalies that -:~nonwealth Parliament has sufficient exist in the Farmers' Relief Act. I an­ -courage to get down to the fundamental ticipate that there will be a number of causes and relieve the distress of the reforms required in the near future farmers. Piecemeal legislation of this that will place the farmers in a position ,description is a palliative. It may of independence, not only of storekeepers, assist the farmer to remain on the land but of the financial institutions. The for a short period, and lead a life of whole of the costs of primary producers slavery, as he has been doing for devolve upon the rest of the community Western Lands [19 Aua., 1941.] (Amendment) Bill. 465

and every hon. member knows that the whatever. I should like to illustrate :financial institutions mentioned by the that on the map. The red portions are leader of the Opposition are the prin­ those large holdings to be withdrawn -cipal causes of the increased cost of under the Buttenshaw Act. The por­ living. I hope that when we do sea the tion marked in blue shows .the area :bill we shall see something in it· that will held by the large holders who did :relieve the farmers, not for twelve not take advantage of the Buttenshaw :months or two years, but permanently. Act. Seven million acres marked in Question resolved in the affirmative. blue are in the Sturt electorate and are held by the Kidman interests. Some Bill presented and read a first time. of those leases expire in 1943, most in 1946, and some in 1948. In the area WESTERN LANDS (AMENDMENT) marked blue it is impossible to travel BILL. from Wilcannip. to Queensland, a dis­ SECO:ND READING. tance of 250 miles, without going over Debate resumed (from 14th August, country held by the Kidman interests. -vide page 407) on motion by Mr. Tully: Mr. TnEATT: They did not come under That .this bill be now read a second time. the 1934 Act! Mr .. HORSINGTON (Sturt) [8.17]: Mr. I-IORSINGTON: No, and when Raving followed the debate on the sec- pressed to do so Mr. Sidney Reid said, 10nd reading, I find there are only two "No, we r.an do better than come under :matters in Lhe bill to which opposition your Act. We can sell it in small allot­ .has been expressed. The first relates ments to small holders on the basis of to resumption without compensation, a lease in perpetuity, and we will get and the second is the statement that the enhanced value instead of the the land proposed to be withdrawn un­ Crown." Twelve months or two years ·der this measure should be reserved for ago, Mr. Sidney Reid, who is a son-in­ :returned soldiers. With regard to com­ law of tt1e late Sir Sidney Kidman, pensation, the holders from whom this came to Sydney to interview Mr. Colin ]and is to be withdrawn have already Sinclair, then Minister for Lands. Mr. been compensated under the Buttenshaw Sinclair's own words to me were, "They· Act of 1934. Certain portions of these were willing to make half the area avail­ big holdings were to be withdrawn and able if they could be given an extension the large holders agreed to the with­ for the other half." And to Mr. Sin­ drawal. Those in -the north, the W algett clair's credit he said, "No, we will have division, were given an extension of the lot, you did not come under the half their leases for a further period Act." That proves con6lusi~ly that the

Mr. HORSINGTON: It made a half of their lease for a further twenty­ portion available, but against that it five years. Every possible concession will gave the holder· a further extension of be given to these people, and I know that lease for twenty-five years. In the re­ the majority of them are very well sat­ port of the Department of Lands, dated isfied with the proposal. 30th June, 1940, the report of the West­ Talking about soldier settlement, I ern Lands Board shows that 45,948,087 know that it was decided at a conference acres have been disposed of by exten­ of the Pastoralists' Association that the sions and perpetual leases under the previous Government should be asked Buttenshaw Act, which means that to make no more land available for set­ roughly 46,000,000 acres are now tied tlement until the war ended, and that up until 1973. Large holders of one thereafter any such land should be million acres have to surrender only the made available to returned soldiers. portion shown on the map in pink, and Those people knew that the war might retain the remainder for twenty-five last one year, or it might last ten years. years. If that is not sufficient com~n­ They wanted to hold on to their land sation I do not know what compensatiOn as long as possi~le, and were not at all is. My opinion is that if compensation interested in the welfare of returned sol­ has to be paid it should be of a monetary diers. We have had returned soldiers character rather than in the form of an in our midst sin~e 1918. . Why has not extension of leases. something been done for them~ Mr. RICHARDSO'N: vVhy does the hon. Mr. Dnu~L\fOND: Help to the extent member say that L of £40,000,000 was given to them, Mr. IIORSINGTON: Because the though not always·wisel:y! land is required. The \Vest has been Mr. HORSINGTON: The men would under a curse since 1901. It has been probably have been better off had the land-locked with these big holdings State paid them a lump sum. The Everybody who has been in the _west leader of the Opposition asked what was. knows that. Originally, through mex­ the use of subdividing land for closer perience, it was considered that the settlement purposes when the State \Vestern Division was suitable only for would probably have to come to the large holdings, and that landholders rescue of the settlers later. For years were entitled to long leases. They were various Governments have had to assist given leases of forty years. In 19~8. an farmers by arranging debt adjustments, amendment was introduced prov1dmg so it is no novelty. Unfortunately, past that any leaseholder who agreed to Governments have not been wise in make one-eighth of his holding available their selection of land for settlement for settlement would be granted a fur­ purposes, or in the price they paid. for ther extension of six years. That tied it. A United Australia party-Umted up seven-eighths of the Western Divi­ Country party Government resumed land sion land for another six :years until 1948, and so it has gone on. Under the in the. Central Division at £5 an acre, Buttenshaw Act the leases were extended when its top price should have been £2, until 1973, so it is seen that the lease­ and settled returned soldiers on it, loaded holders have teen well compensated. to the neck with debt. We who travel in the West know that :Mr. DRUMMOND: In many instances the lease-holders who come under the the conditions were much more favour­ bill are more than satisfied. One or able! two who were a little hesitant at first ~fr. HORSINGTO~: In recent years asked me if I could have them brought no Government has resumed land in the under the bill, but they were too late. The Kidman interests would jump at central or eastern divisions at a price the chance of bringing. their 7,000,000 at less than £4 an acre. In the majority acres under the law as it stands, if they of cases the price was £'7 an acre, and were assured of an extension of the other the settler had to meet that debt plus Western Lands (19 Aua., 1941.] (Amendment) Bill. 467 -' interest. It was not long bEJfore he others whose addresses are mostly in found himself in difficulties, and had to Victoria and in England, and to whom approach the Government for assistance. the Western Land Board has given Mr. MAIR: In what sections of the 221,000 acres as lease in perpetuity. central division was that done? Mr.. LAWSON: In what district? Mr. HORSINGTON: A lot of them, Mr. HORSINGTON: Yalcowinna, 30 including one on the Murray. If the miles from Broken Hill. A former Min­ leader of the Opposition can show me ister for Lands, Mr. Sinclair, said that one estate purchased by a United Aus­ was the standard allowed under the Act, tralia party-United Country party Gov­ but the view has been expressed that en:meat in the central division at a the Act is too generous. I was disap­ cost of less than £4 an acre, I am willing pointed that the Minister in charge of to withdraw everything I have said on the bill did not go further, because the subject. The Government paid top everybody acquainted with the western prices and the returned soldier settlers division knows that land with a carry­ were quickly in difficulties. Years ago ing capacity of 16,000 sheep will give returned soldiers were settled at Bena­ a person more than a decent living. nee, on unsatisfactory holdings, and Mr. TREATT: There are a numb'

place, as we have been forced to do before, Lands, Mr. Colin Sinclair,_:when r···~hal­ just for the want of another 40,000 acres of land. lenged him, said: '~In no ·case has ~be Trusting to see Mr. Tully, also your good Western Lands Board allocated Iand t'l self in the near future. which a person has not been ·entitled under the Act." In one or two cases, Mr. .A hand-out! MA.IR: Mr. Sydney Smith is the culprit,. be­ Mr. HORSINGTON: The letter is cause he has gone round the country from a man whose family has lived and has issued additionals and leases. in there for fifty years. He has battled perpetuity, which I consider to be·more through dry seasons and droughts. Is than a ·living area, and more than pro­ it suggested that such men are not en­ vided for in the .Act. The .Act states titled to additional land~ specifically that 8,500 sheep may be car­ Mr. MAIR: Additional land, but not a ried on· a lease in perpetuity, yet accord­ hand-out! ing to papers laid on the table, a lease Mr. HORSINGTON: .Any hon. mem­ in perpetuity with a carrying capacity ber who has been out in the far west, of 16,000-sheep, has been granted to the near Tibooburra, knows Mrs. Kershaw. Yalcowinna Station. Yalcowinna is She has lived there for fifty yea1;s, has only 40 miles at most from the trucking built a nice little home, and battled yards at Broken Hill, and is now a lease through. in perpetuity. Mr. MAIR: What is the area~ · Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The hon. mem­ ber has exhausted his time. Mr. HORSINGTON: Sixty thousanu acres, and there are 4,000 sheep. Ac­ Motion (by Mr. Davidson) agreed to: cording to the carrying capacity fixed 'l'hat the hon. member be allowed an ex­ by this bill, she will be entitled to tension of time. 200,000 acres. Mr. HORSINGTON: The state­ Mr. MAIR: And more sheep! ment has been made that the West­ ern Division has deteriorated. It Mr. HORSINGTON: No, it is not proposed to increase the numper ;of has not deteriorated. Taken as a whole, it is probably better than most parts of sheep beyond 4,000. In that part of the the Central Division. There is ·feed State will be found some of the best men working on the land, and they are and water almost throughout the length and breadth of the Western .Division. making a "do" of it. It is impossible to .make a living there on an area of It· was· mentioned during the course of u:r(dcr 90,000 acres. .Areas of 20,000 the debate that at one time the Western Division carried 16,000,000 sheep and and 40,000 acres are too small at Tiboo­ now carries only 6,500,000. If hon. burra or Milparinka in the far north· members refer to the report of the western corner of New South Wales. Western Lands Board, embraced in the Mr. WEAVER: Is that fifteen ·acres to Department of Lands Report for 1940, a sheep~ it will be seen that over a period of 37 Mr. HORSINGTON: Yes, but in years the average number of sheep car­ most areas it is worse than that; it is ried was 6,350,985, compared with twenty acres to a sheep. They do 7,475,587 for the year ended 30th June, not mind the area. They will be sat­ 1940. In · other words, the carrying isfied with a sufficient area to carry capacity of the Western Division- .ex­ 6,000• sheep. Of course, the area would pressed in terms of sheep. has increased have to vary acco-rding to the carrying by 1,124,602. A Minister for Lands once capacity of the land. The Western told me that the Western Division w~uld Lands Boaud is going round the coun- eventually become very much like the . try handing out large areas and excus­ Sahara Desert. It will not become .a , ing itself by· saying that it has power to desert. do· so under the .Act. I would remind Mr. LAWSON: Portion 6f it is a desert hon. members that the ex-Minister for now! 4:70 1r cslcm Lands [ASSEMBLY.] (Amendment) Bill.

Mr. HORSING TON: It is not.. It Mr. HORSINGTON: As freehold, is a valuable asset to the State, and 2,000 acres out of 900,000 would hardly should be properly governed, not dis­ be worth considering. These holders have credited at every opportunity and made been well compensated, and those who the chopping block of politics. In op­ did not come under the Act would posing the bill, the leader of the Op­ gladly come under it to-day to receive position claimed that it was going to the same terms. As far as land settle· resume freeholds. I pointed out that ment generally is concerned, not only there was little freehold in the Western in the Western, but also in the Central Division. My statement is supported by Division, New South Wales is back­ :fig·ures published in Questions and ward compared with other States. Every -Answ pointed out, it comprises a homestead, a for the State of Victoria to collect just tank or a dam, or some improvement on £500,000 in land tax-than which on the holding. If that is so, tenant right there is no fairer tax-it should be pos­ is given, which means that the Western sible in New South Wales to c~ilect Land Board or some other authority £750,000 from that source. Had that. will value the improvement; · and the been done over a number of years, and incoming settler must pay for it at that the proceeds placed ·in a fund for the valuation. purpose of resuming land for closer set­ Mr. DRUMMOND: Would the hon. mem· tlement, we should not be in our pre­ ber. be satisfied if given only tenant sent difficulty. right? Mr. MAIR: Will the hon. member in­ Mr. HORSINGTON: Tenant right corporate that proposal in the budget~ is the value of the improvement when it is built. If that value is given after Mr. HORSINGTON: If I wC!I'e a period of thirty years, it is certainly Treasurer I should do so. If large land good value. owners will not make their property Mr. RrCI-IARDSON: Tenant right is not available to small settlers they should be a substitute for the payment of com­ taxed, and the resultant fund should be pensation for freehold! used as I have indicated. Instead of Western Lar~ds [19 Aua., 1941.] (A mendrnent) Bill. 471

over-burdening settlers with heavy in­ Mr. LAWSON: That is not so. The itial costs and subsequently having to two members who represented the area reappraise their properties and write were given a guarantee that the only down their debts, we could by such a subject that would be discussed was method place them on the land on a legislation dealing with the Western Di­ satisfactory basis. vrswn. Of the twenty members who I am not over-pleased with the bill, went on the tour and paid their own because it does not go far enough. Not expenses, one was the Ron. J. F. one acre in the Sturt electorate will be Coates, then lead£T of the Labour party made available for additionals or closer in another place. Meetings were held at settlement. The man that I have men­ \Yalgett, Brewarrina, Bourke, W ana a r­ tioned who owns 4,000 sheep and has no ing, Tibooburra and other places feed for them will have no chance of throughout the Western Division. I was getting one additional acre of land under satisfied that the case for additional the provisions of the bill. areas for small holders was proved to the hilt, and that any legislation affect­ Mr. TREATT: Why not? ing the Western Division should deal Mr. HORSINGTON: Because he does primarily with that problem. In 1934, not come under the operation of the Mr. Buttenshaw, who was then Minister "Buttenshaw" Act. The Government for Lands, introduced a measure which should tell Kidman and Company that provided that one-fourth of each of the they must disgorge their land before large holdings in the division should be . their leases expire, compensation or no voluntarily surrendered and, as compen­ compensation. ' The bill might help sation to the owners, the leases for the . a few who now have less than a living remainder of the areas should be ex­ area to obtain a decent living. tended. After seeing the plight of small Mr. LAWSON (Murray) [9.15] : I ·men in the Western Division I was satis­ was rather surprised by the statements fied that prompt action of that nature made by the Minister in his second read­ was the only solution of the problem, ing-speech, and I shall deal with and that before any leases were extended them later. I gained my first ex­ there should be a withdrawal of one­ fourth uf existing large leases, which perience m Vvestern Lands Legis­ should immediately be given to small lation in 1933, when, in company men. This the Government agreed ·to with a number of other members of do, and a bill for the purpose was this House, I toured the Western passed. In addition to the withdrawal Division and met settlers, large and small, of one-quarter, further withdrawals of land seekers, and other members of the one-eighth were to be made in 1943, and public who were interested in any legis­ in 1948. As compensation the leases lation affecting their districts. All hon. were extended in 'the W algett North area members were invited to take part in the for twenty years, and in all the other areas for twenty-five years. The present tour, and it is regrettable that the two · Minister, in his second reading speech, whose electorates are in that area re­ severely criticised the Government of the fused to do so. time for extending the leases. He said Mr. HonsrNGTON: Did not the Govern­ that under the pretext of obtaining land ment of the day make an organised poli­ for building up the holdings of small tical campaign of it~ settlers, the Buttenshaw Act made a Mr. LAWSON: No, not one word of present to large holders of lengthy ex­ tensions of tenure. He said, further, that politics was discussed. The only sub­ the Labour party opposed that strenu­ ject dealt with was the Western Division. ously, and felt so strongly about the Mr. HonsiNGTON: Did not the Gov­ matter that it warned all and sundry ernment send the organiser of the United that the Act would be reviewed when Australia party ahead of the party? Labour wns again returned to office. The West ern Lanil,s [ASSEMBLY.] (Amendment) B1'll.

Minister also said that, if the l3utten­ able to them only by one of two ways­ shaw legislation had not been passed, the first, there is the process of resumption by payment in bonds bearing interest at cur­ leases of the large holdings would have rent rates. The second process, and th8' been due to expire and that the land one that is preferable, would be the com.­ would revert to the Crown between 1943 pulsory surrender of one-fourth of the­ and 1948. For years past the small large holdings to the Crown, in return for which the Crown would extend the term of· settlers in the Western and Central the leases of the residue for varying Divisions have looked to the day when periods in accordance with the productivity the long leases would revert to the Crown of the land distance from the rail and rain­ and the land be available to build up. faJI. The extension of the lease situated in the best of the division, such as N ortb their holdings. That is what the Min­ Walgett, should not exceed a term of twelve­ ister said in the House last Thursday. years.... While he was on holidays after The Minister further stated that the the 1932 elections, he tried his rest of the area was not so suitable for hand at writing newspaper articles closer settlement and especially in the on the Western Division. One of north-western part of the division­ those articles was published m the The Min.ister said : Labor Daily. Mr. W. DAVIES: That is a long time In the part of the division which com­ prises the whole of Milparinka and Wanaar· ago! ing, together with the nol'thern part of Mr. LAWSON: It is not so long ago. Menindie and Wilcannia pastoral protec­ The 1.1:inister urged hon. members to tion districts, the carrying capacity is ap­ read what he said in the Country Life proximately one sheep to seventeen acres­ and Stock and Station Journal. He Generally it is poor country with no rail­ wanted hon. members to see what a fine ways and a rainfall of seven to ten and a reception the paper gave him. He also half inches. In its present state it is un­ suitable for small settlers. Any land sur­ told us to read what was said about him rendered to the Crown should be nsed t() in The Bulletin and in Smith's Weeklu, build up small settlers to a home mainten­ but I am satisfied to quote from the good ance area. old Labour Daily of 31st January, 1934. The Minister wrote this article In stating what Labour would do to as a private citizen, and it was amend the Western I,ands Act, the Min­ published in the Labour Daily with ister said: the authority of the Australian Labour I have had considerable experience of party. The article was sent out to the the Western Division and during my term as Minister I have travelled between 2,500 country newspapers by the secretary_ and 3,000 miles of the area, and I make Then the Minister comes to Parliament some suggestions that may be worthy of as Minister, and criticises the Govern­ consideration in Labour's future policy. ment of the time for doing something * * * * In 1031-and the figures have not altered that he said was necessary in the in­ materially since then-there were 786 sinall terests of the people of the Western settlers holding areas less than home main­ Division. tenance areas. Mr. TuLLY: He did not propose t()· That is all right, because it is borne extend the leases for twenty-five years I out by the facts. The Minister con­ tinued: Mr. LAWSON: He said he would ex­ tend the leases for twelve years in the And the first problem to-day is to see that those men are built-up to home main­ North W algett part for the surrender of tenance areas before any new settlers are one quarter. We extended the leases for . placed on these lands. twenty years, for the surrender of Mr. W. DAVIES: That is all right! one-fourth, while another fourth is Mr. LAWSON: Yes, but the :Afinis­ being surrendered inside five years. On .tcr goes on to say : an actuarial basis that puts the com­ · As these settlers cannot wait for addi­ pensation practically on all fours with tional land until the leases of the large what was suggested by the Minister. Why ,~eesees expire extra land can be made avail- does he criticise the last Government's Western Lan4s · [19 Aua., 1941.] ( A..mendment) Bill. 473 legislation? He said that the Butten­ explain it in his second-reading speech. shaw legislation o! 1934 puts off for When one-fourth of the large holdings all time any comprehensive plan for was withdrawn under the 1934 Act, 700 the re-establishment of closer set­ small settlers received additionals that tlement in the Western Division. assisted them to remain there and sup­ Why should he come into the House and port their families. Otherwise, at least condemn a measure which, as a private 50 per cent. would have been unable to citizen, he advocated and which the do so. Government of the day carried out on The Minister, in the press article~ the lines he suggested in his press said that everyone who attended article. This proposal contemplates the meetings in the Western Division the breaking of a very definite contract was convinced that the position was des­ entered into by the Government and cer­ perate. Since I have been in this House tain lessees in 1934 or 1935. the Opposition before this Government Mr. W. DAVIES: A 'bad contract! took over, and particularly the hon. Mr. LAWSON: They were assured members for Cobar and Sturt, who rep­ that if they surrendered one-fourth of resent the vVestern Division, have shown their land immediately, and were pre­ a callous and brutal indifference to pared to surrender an additional one­ the welfare of those small men. They fourth later on, their leases would be ex­ have laughed at the plight of them, and tended. They made the contract in good would have thrown out the bill and left faith. The present Government is pre­ 700 men to work in the area and live as pared to treat that contract as a scrap slaves. By now, 50 per cent. of them of paper. Although the period to run would have left their holdings. I said is not very long, being from two to :five in my speech on that bill that if no as­ years, the principle of this kind of re­ sumption is bad, and is not asked for sistance was given they would not be there by the people of the Western Division. when the land fell due in 1945 or 1948. However, if after the remaining small During the Parliamentary party's tour holders were built up to home mainten­ of that division I saw the poverty and ance areas, and the surplus retained for hardship that scores of men were end~r­ members of the fighting forces, no great ing. I met families in which were grown­ objection would be made to the bill, .up boys who could. neither read nor provided compensation was offered for write. There are practically no schools the breaking of contracts. . throughout for the lessees, and the Clause 2, subclause (c), of the bill children are educated by correspond­ deals with the withdrawal of section 18E. ence. I agreed with the Minister I should like the Minister to give an ex­ that these people must receive considera­ planation of the meaning of that amend­ tion. They have been considered and ment, and state what area or class of relief given in most cases, but hon. land is likely to be withdrawn under that provision. So far as I can gather, it is members opposite would have left them there like dogs to eke out an exis- the residue of an area in which a lessee . tence the best way they could; to live or has applied for and been granted a lease die. That was the position. in perpetuity, who has held more than one living area and less than two living RoN. 'MKMDERS: areas. Under the Act he .was granted a Mr. LAWSON: It may cause some lease in perpetuity of one living .area, hon. members amusement. Perhaps to and it would appear that the residue is them it is very funny; but that was likely to be resumed without compensa­ the·'Plight of these people. Ron. mem­ tion. I am not prepared to say that in­ ·be:rs may treat the matter with great terpretation is correct, but the Minister mirth and ·humour. made no reference to it, and he did not Mr. SHEAHAN: I am going out there! 474 Western La;nds [ASSEMBLY.] (Amendment) Bill.

Mr. LAWSON: The hon. member will are held by dealers, and this applies to not laugh when he goes out there. the Kidman Estates, large areas may Mr. SHEAHAN: If I do not make a be held also in other States, and when better impression out there than the hon. that land is affected by drought and member I shall stay there I the holdings in the Western Division are in good condition, stock is brought Mr. LAWSON: Government mem­ from the holdings in other States bers treat the position of those men with and overstocking takes place, to the ridicule. I say to the: hon. members for detriment of the Western Division. Cobar and Sturt that they have treated There should be safeguards against that. those settlers with absolute indifference, and would have left them without help Mr. HonSINGTON: The Kidmans have or succour. been doing it for years. Mr. DAvmsox: When did the hon. Mr. L.A WSON: It should not be al­ member go out there? lowed. The hon. member for Sturt ridiculed a statement that the Western Mr. LAWSON: I have been out there Division was deteriorating. On my very often. I represented part of the visit there t saw areas of 25 miles from Vv estern Division in 1934, and at two Clifton Bore just like a simdy desert, subsequent elections I received a and that condition was spreading. In stronger vote from that area than I had a report, Mr. Clayton, Director of Soil ever received. I defy any man to visit Conservation in New South Wales, my electorate and say he would repeal makes statements causing those having this Act. Ron. members opposite would an interest in the Western Division a not dare advocate its repeal. A great great deal of concern. He said: deal has been said about the small hold­ Investigations have disclosed tha~ . ~he ings and carrsing capacity of the west­ e1·osion problem in the Western DlVlSIOn ern division. In my opinion, the area is a most extensive one, with consequences is an asset to the State; it produces a that threaten the economic stability of that good type of sheep and, as the Minister region. Since the occupation of the ':back:' country for grazing purposes, there lS eV1· said, it has not made any claims on the dence that a progressive destruction of the Government or State-'-the men had invaluable timber stands has taken place, "paddled their own canoes." The only with a consequential deterioration of the way to prevent over-stocking amongst grass, bush and herbage covers. The re· moval of the timber has opened up the small holders is to give men land cap­ country to the effects of wind action, the able of carrying sufficient stock to pro­ stocking on too high a basis has desiccated vide a living without their having to the soils, and it is evident that a "desert" resort to over-stocking. condition is obtaining in a number of areas. Mr. Honsi'NGTON: How much stock In a report in the Ag1-icultural Gazette do you say the area can carry~ of 1st June, 1937, he says: Worse examples of wind erosion are al­ Mr. LAWSO:N: It is hard to say. ready to be seen in Australia on . both In the W algett area it is three or fom· grazing and cultivated lands than m the acres to a sheep, and further back it United States of Ame1·ica or Canada, worse goes up to 20 or 25 acres to. a sheep. even than in the famous "Dust Bowl" in Whatever the carrying capacity may be Texas. There is no doubt that we are in process of transforming the sem~·arid inland there should be some safeguard against a1·eas into desert at a more rap1d rate than over-stocking. In the case of the large in the United States of America. holders, where the owner lives on the In the north-western part of the Western holding and looks after it, he is an Di..-ision it can be seen to be increasing asset to the district. He treats his as the years go by. In this article Mr. men well and does not over-stock. Mr. Clayton also says : J. B . .Armstrong is an asset to Went­ This "back" country is extremely impor­ worth. He looks after his property, tant to New South Wales as a source of revenue; it is also home to the set_tlers in looks after his men, and his place is that area. Much has been done to Improve not over-stocked. Where the holdings the quality of the merino, until to·day it Western Lands [19 Aua., ·1J41.] · (Amendment) Bill. 475

stands unrivalled for quality and quantity of Mr. LAW.SON: We want it in the wool, but nothing has been done to conserve bill that the land, over and above that the country on which it grazes. On the con· required for building up the small settlers trary, its deterioration, in- fact, its destruc· tion, is being permitted. Beyond doubt this with less than home maintenance areas, fine and extensive "back" country will be will be reserved absolutely for the men gradually turned into desert unless the of our fighting forces. If the land is vegetable cover, which is the only prac· given away to anyone else there will be tical protection against wind erosion, is trouble for the Government. Those are increased and maintained. It is absolutely the two points that we feel we should essential that the stocking should be in insist upon-provision for returned sol­ equilibrium with the vegetation, or this diers and reasonable compensation to great asset will be destroyed. the men whose contract is broken. I am sure that the Premier would agree Mr. HEFEREN (Barwon) [9.55] : I with that statement, because on more have listened ver.r attentively to the than one occasion he has expressed arguments put up by the Opposition on concern about the danger facing this behalf of the large lessees in the Western country from soil erosion. I am Division. Opposition members are fight­ opposed to the bill because it savors ing the lessees' battles magnificently, of confiscation. Those holders who gave under the cloak of patriotism. !t is the fourth of their country did so in surpr.ising, indeed, how the all-import­ good faith, and no decent Britisher or ant question of returned soldiers is Australian would agree to our breaking brought forward in relation to this honourable contracts. There is nothing measure. I have never seen so kindly in the bill to say that the land will be a concern for returned soldiers as the reserved for the men of our fighting Opposition _is now manifesting in an forces. I think we should test the endeavour to make out that the Minister House on that. We want some guaran­ is overlooking altogether the interests tee that their rights will be safeguarded. of the returned soldiers. There are We want to see that these men who are men fighting on the other side who, as fighting to defend our land, fighting at small settlers, are looking forward to Tobruk and Greece and Crete, and · the day when this land will be made some of them prisoners of war, do not available. come back to find we have given it all The hon. member for Armidale said away. Holdings of 3,000 or 4,000 acres, that a certain amount of western land carrying 2,000 or 3,000 sheep, will be was -a desert. Elsinora Proprietary Ltd. eagerly sought after by returned men hold 1,250,000 acres, and run 73,000 who have had western experience. I have sheep year in and year out. At 'rs. 6d. a a fair knowledge of the western division, head return, their income is £27,000 per and I know that a home maintenance annum. If only these statistics returned area on that country is just as stable by the pastoralists were in our posses­ and as valuable as a home maintenance sion we should be astounded at the in­ area in any other part of the country. come the grazing interests receive from If the Minister would give that assurance these leases . that there will be no repudiation of the . There has been a lot said about car­ contract without compensation, and that rying capacity. A maximum capacity of the rights of the returned men will be 8,500 sheep and a minimum capacity absolutely safeguarded, we will be much of 3,000 sheep have been predetermined more content. as a basis. We should like to reduce Mr. TuLLY: I gave that assurance those numbers, but we find that most about the returned men! of the damage has been done out there Mr. LAWSON: We want it in the under the previous Act, and leases have been obtained in perpetuity on an 8,500 bill; then we will be satisfied. sheep basis. We cannot put these original Mr. McKELL: What does the hon. settlers and the men applying for addi­ member want in the bill? tionals at a disadvantage, so we have to 476 West em Lands [ASSEMBLY.] (Amendment) Bill.

accept the Act as it is, though the num­ only ones who declined to do so were the ber :fixed when the legislation was in­ Kidman interests, to the tune of troduced by Mr. Buttenshaw was far too 10,000,000 acres, and obviously it was large. There are many men getting their belief that they could gerrymander a very good income with much smaller the position to their own advantage. 'flocks than 8,500 sheep. Then again, Apart from the Kidman interests and beyond a certain distance from the rail · a few deceased estates in respect of which head the 8,500 basis was raised until no decision could be given the land­ we have some living areas with hundreds holders hastened to take advantage of of thousands of acres. If it were only that legislation. I think it will be ad­ possible for us or for some authority mitted by bon. members on both sides to go and count the sheep on these 8,500 of the House that the leases were gen­ sheep holdings, we should be astounded. erous. As the hon. member for Tenter­ and would probably find that areas al­ field has stated, political interference in legedly capable of carrying 8,500 sheep the past has caused a lot of trouble in are, in fact, able to sustain 16,000 the Western Division. I am particu­ sheep. Heturns showing the number of larly concerned about the Walgett North ·Weep pastured are confidential, and not district, in which there is no desert available to hon. members, so therefore area. That district contains some of it is impossible to obtain precise infor­ the finest pastoral land in the State and mation on the subject. . The original some of the finest sheep in the Com­ basis was too liberal, and, as has already monwealth are bred there. It is pro­ been stated, political interference has posed under this bill to take from the done much to damage the position of large landholders an area of 391,000 small settlers in the Western Division. acres on the basis of 3 acres to a sheep. The Buttenshaw Act was the worst offender. If it had been possible to re­ Mr. DRUMMOND: "Take from the large possess the land and distribute it on a landholders" is a very apt description! fair carrying capacity basis something Mr. HEFEREN: I can express it in could have been achieved in the interests better terms, if the bon. member so of the small settlers. Now, whatever re­ desires. He no doubt understands that adjustment is made, it will be impossible the Crown is going to acquire this land. to do justice to all. An area of only There are in the W algett North dis­ 5,500,000 acres is available to the Gov­ trict 391,000 acres of good pastoral land. ernment, which will have to do its best In the North-West land will be made within the limits imposed. It will not available to a good number of settlers scale down the sheep-carrying basis pre­ who desire to obtain make-ups. There viously decided upon, as that would 'be are many men in the W algett North unfair. According to the report of the district who have not a living area with ·western Lands Commissioner, for the a proper sheep basis, and we hope to year ended 30th June, 1940, there are build up those men and to make their 2,240 tenants in the Western Division, position stable. On land with a carry­ 132 of whom are .owners o;f large stations, ing capacity of 3,500 sheep we can put the small tenants being in the ratio of from forty-five to fifty new original ten to one. There are 4,237 leases. The settlers, and those additional settlers will Government will make some of the land be welcomed by the business people of available for original holdings, and I the North W algett district. If we can sincerely hope that it will be possible give the settlers in that district a to assist returned soldiers already in the home maintenance area that would carry area. another 1,000 sheep, we will be able to Lessees in the Western Division were place another 130 settlers in the dis­ .given an opportunity to come, under the trict, and although that number is not provisions of the Buttenshaw Act, and very great the people there will be very they availed themselves of that oppor­ thankful to this Government for the tunity in no uncertain manner. The additional population; Western Lands Bill. [19 Aua., 1941.] New Member. 477

.Mr. TuLLY: This Government is doing assistance. Numbers of returned soldier<' much more than the previous Govern­ could be settled in .the Western Division. ment did in the Central Division .during They will participate along with every the last three or four years! other section of the community and will Mr. HEF·EREN: I have no doubt make application to the Western Land that the. ·efforts of this Government w.ill Board for addi!tional holdings. There exceed those of the previous administra­ is nothing wrong with that. Big land­ tion. The Government, while it is .assist­ owners. came in under the Buttenshaw ing settlement in this way, will not put Act, and accepted its provisions. They any of the large leaseholders on the dole, were well treated. This resumption of and none of them will be seen carrying this small area of land will not be to the a swag away from the district. Let me disadvantage of the Government when quote a few of the stations from which the time comes for it. to answer to the these withdrawals-are-to be made. There are 39,000 acres to come from Angledool, . electors. I hope that the Opposition 7,500 from Bavinkine, 4,320 from Bur­ will do the right thing and allow ren Downs, 5,000 from Burren Burren, this distribution to be made be­ 69,344 from Boorooma, 42,500 from cause neither the Government nor hon. Dunumbral, 31,000 from Dungalear, members have anything to gain, but it 24,840 from Gingie, and tl1,900 from will give some form of security and re­ Gundablui, about which Henry Lawson lief to those men in the Western Divi­ wrote poems. Then there are Habbarey sion who have had a pretty hard time. 11;380 acres, Llanillo 21,000, Milrea They are looking to the .Government to 5,500, Jl.foongulla 9,100, Moorlands do something to help them. 30,132, Morendal 20,000, and Ulah 7,300. Those are properties in the north­ Debate adjourned. west that are run by wealthy lessees House adjourned at 1,0.17. p.m. who might well surrender some of the land. I do not think any serious ob­ jection can be taken to its surrender. It is no use members of the Opposition 3Ltgi.slatibt ~oundl. trying to put up a case for leaseholders in the Western Division because those Wednesday, 20 August, 1941. lessees have had a bad spin. I do not know of any bankrupts among them, New Member-Local Government (Electoral Provis· ions) Bill-Factories and Shops (Amendment) and they seem to be getting on well. Bill (second reading)-Coal Mines Regulation (Further Amendment) Bill (second reading)­ Before the British Government decided Special Adjournment-Adjournment (Munitions to pay a reasonable price for our wool, Annexes: Women on Night Shifts). the small graziers found it difficult to exist, and the action of the British The PRESID&"\'T. took the chair. Government has benefited them. That is one of the most important things that The opening Prayer was read. has happened in this country during the NEW MEMBER. war, and we sincerely hope that when the war is over the men will have more The PRESIDENT reported the return security and will know what they can from his Excellency the Governor of a expect for their produce. writ for the election of a member of the The members of the Opposition have Legislative Council, together with a cer· nttempted to cast a stigma on the Gov­ tificate that James Joseph Maloney, ernment party by associating with it Esquire, had been elected to fill the the words "confiscation" and "repudia­ vacancy caused by the death of the Ron. tion."· We do not want to confiscate or F. E. Wall. repudiate anything, but we hope to be able tp do something tangible in the in­ The Ron. J. J. Maloney took the oath terests of the small holders who deserve and subscribeq the roll.