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[No. 20 - 2008] Fourth Session, Third Legislature
REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA
LEGISLATURE OF THE NORTH WEST PROVINCE
TUESDAY: 11 NOVEMBER 2008 09H00
HON. DEP. SPEAKER: HON. DEP. SPEAKER: Honourable Members, we may Honourable Members, are there now observe a moment of silent any motions without notice? prayer and meditation. Honourable Madoda, Honourable Members you may Honourable Hattingh, get seated. Next item Honourable Groenewald, Honourable Moiloa, Honourable SECRETARY: ITEM NO. 2; Matladi late comer. MINUTES OF THE 21st OCTO- BERT 2008. HON. MADODA: Thank you Honourable Deputy HON. DEP. SPEAKER: Speaker. The ANC rises to Honourable Members, I put place a motion without a notice before you a set of minutes of to inform the House about the the 21st October 2008 for adop- election of Mr. Barack Obama to tion. Are there any corrections the presidency of the Unites from the minutes? In the Stated of America. Mr. Obama absence of any corrections, becomes the 44th president of does the House adopt the min- America. utes? Next item. Honourable Speaker, W would SECRETARY: ITEM NO 3; also like to congratulate Mr. MOTIONS Obama on being the first African-American president and (a) Motions without notice the youngest leader in the histo- (b) Notices of Motions ry of the US. The ANC would like to wish him well on his
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tenure as President. Thank He was stabbed several times you. with a knife and his wife Hannatjie Stander both are eld- HON. DEP. SPEAKER: erly people, they were stabbed I take it the House concurs with twelve times with a knife and in the motion. Next motion. the incident one of the attackers Honurable Hattingh. escaped. I move that the Legislature registers its concern HON. HATTINGH: with the increasing farm attacks Honourable Deputy Speaker, I in the North West Province. have two motions. First the DA moves that this House registers Second motion to the its concern with the latest spate Legislature registers its condo- of farm attacks in the North lences with a passing away of West Province which claimed South Africa's Goodwill the lives of three farmers in the Ambassador Miriam Makeba. I past week. recall that she at one stage also performed at the North West In the first incident Mr. Brink Provincial Legislature during an Botha from Mamogaleskraal on opening. Thank you. the 02nd of November was killed after he fight with three HON. DEP. SPEAKER: armed robberies. His wife Mrs. I take that the House concurs Christelle Botha and their thir- with motions as tabled. teen year old daughter after Honourable Groenewald. theft of weapon, cell phones and cash was downed and was HON. GROENEWALD: locked up. On the 06th of Thank you Honourable Deputy November Mr. Flip Minnie from Speaker. The DA wants to the farm Rooikopies near Brits move this august House and was killed by attackers in the express their deepest concerns presence of his fourteen year relating the incident that hap- old son. pened to the resident who were put out of their flats in On the same date Mr. Sias Mmabatho by the Red Ants on Stander was killed during a farm Wednesday the 29th of October attack on the farm near Coligny. 2008. I thank you.
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HON. DEP. SPEAKER: motion. Let's proceed, the next I take that the House concurs mover is Honourable Mokomele- with the motion. Honourable Mothibi. Moiloa. HON. MOKOMELE-MOTHIBI: HON. MOILOA: Thank you Honourable Deputy Honourable Deputy Speaker, the Speaker. Honourable Deputy African National Congress here- Speaker the ANC rises to place with place a motion without a motion without notice to inform notice to give all Grade 12 best your House about the death of wishes on their year end exami- singer Miriam Makeba age 76 nations. This period represents after being taken ill following a a unique and important moment concert in the Italian Town of in the lives of all the learners Caserta. who will be writing in the National Certificate Makeba was a legendary voice Examinations this academic of the African continent, who year. became a symbol of the fight against segregation in South By sitting in these examinations, Africa. Miriam or Mama Africa you have in fact already as she was popularly known reached the pivotal stage after was born in Johannesburg the almost twelve years of hard 04th March 1932. From her work during your school in start in a church choir, Makeba career. We believe that will do went on to sing professionally. yourselves, your families in the Makeba's superior voice earned province proud by improving last her the lead in the show King year's pass rate. We as the Kong, and a film part in Come ANC therefore extend our best Back Africa. wishes to you. We want to reit- erate to you that dreams do She became on international come true. You must just have sensation and sing at President courage to pursue them. Thank Kennedy's birthday. Makeba you. spent decades in exile; living mostly in the US and then in HON. DEP. SPEAKER: Guinea, after the South African I take the House agrees with the government cancelled her pass-
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port in 1960 for speaking out changes not only to Africa but to against the atrocities performed the whole world to make it a by the apartheid government. better place for all.
The ANC would like to take the My second motion on Mama time to send our heartfelt condo- Africa. It is with great sadness lences to the Makeba's family, that the UCDP wishes to table a farewell Mama Africa. I thank motion without notice on the you. passing on of Miriam Makeba, "Mama Africa" as she is affec- HON. DEP. SPEAKER: tionately known. She suc- Honourable Matladi. cumbed to a heart attack after a concert in CasteVolturno, south- HON. MATLADI: ern Italy on Sunday. Thank you Honourable Deputy Speaker. Honourable Deputy I Mama Africa was mother to our do have two motions without struggle. Her haunting melodies notice that support the other gave voice to the pain of exile motions without notice present- as depicted by our former State ed by my colleagues. The first President, Dr. Nelson Mandela. one I would like to table is the Her music contributed to the lib- honour to Barack Obama for his eration of the people and con- victory as the USA President tributed to the liberation of the elect. people of the South Africa from the bondage of oppression. We We hope that as the UCDP, this salute you Mama Africa, a true will be the beginning of the new daughter of the soil. May your political terrain in International soul rest in peace. Good night Politics as it is the first time a Miriam Makeba, good night. black person is voted an American President. We hope HON. DEP. SPEAKER: that this will speed up changes Honourable Members I note that in Africa, as Africa is one of the the House agrees with all these continents in the development motions tabled, and I take that and hope that Barack Obama as the House adopts all the president of America, the "politi- motions, but I want to draw the cal powerhouse" will bring attention of the House that there
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is a notice of motion from the Thank you Honourable Deputy Order Paper standing over from Speaker. Honourable Deputy the previous Sitting. Speaker the African National Honourable Mampane and Congress rise to place a motion Honourable Kekesi. without notice for voter registra- tion held on the 08 to the 09th of HON. MAMPANE: November 2008. The ANC is Thank you Honourable Deputy saying all this is not lost for Speaker. The African National those who missed the voter reg- Congress herewith rises to istration deadline yesterday. place a motion to place a motion Although registration closed without notice to inform your yesterday we further say that House about the horrific storms our communities must visit their which hit the North West local municipality offices to reg- Province at the community of ister for the next coming elec- Driehoek in Marikana. tions.
The community of Driehoek, We want to thank the communi- near Lichtenburg is reeling from ties for they were not discour- shock following the death of two aged by the rainy weather for people and six others sustaining register for the votes, today we injuries after they were hit by a are told that more 1.1 million eli- lightning last week. The victims gible voters have turned up in all were members of a local football 19 000 registrations stations. team which had just played a These are preliminary because soccer match at the neighbour- we are expecting final result ing village. from Wednesday as per IEC statement. Honourable Deputy Speaker on another incident at Marikana Our gratitude thanks goes to near Rustenburg 28 people IEC for their good work done were injured and 300 houses over the weekend. I thank you destroyed after being hit by a Deputy Speaker. violent storm on the 29th October 2008. I thank you. HON. DEP. SPEAKER: Honourable Members earlier on HON. KEKESI: I granted to draw your attention
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that there is a notice of motion Honourable Africa is abroad on on the Order Papers standing government business because over from the previous Sitting, what is going to do there is for precisely because Honourable the benefit of South African peo- Darkey Afrika was not present. I ple. So he will be back of am sure MEC Africa is still not course. available and the matter will stand over until he is available HON. HATTINGH: to respond. Are there any Thank you Deputy Speaker, can notices of motions? we then request that one of his …[inaudible]…South Africa actu- HON. HATTINGH: ally comes here and address us Honourable Deputy Speaker, I as well , we can see him here do not know whether any rather not to see him in the long Member has seen the time. Honourable Africa lately but I would like to enquire whether is HON. DEP. SPEAKER: he still a Member if the House My focus is on the item on the and whether this motion will agenda. The notice of motion actually stand during this term. that has been deferred. I am If there is anybody that can saying from a presiding this assist. matter will be debated in the next Sitting where Honourable HON. DEP. SPEAKER: Africa is. I am not going to Honourable Hattingh I express entertain anything beyond what concern myself this morning is on the table. Are there any over the very matter you raising, notices of motions Honourable but can we agree that the Office Members? But before we pro- of the Speaker will follow up the ceed to the next item. May I matter and make sure that draw the attention of the House this…[Interrupted by Honourable and I am doing this thing to Maloyi] . clear the air.
HON. MALOYI: The Office of the Speaker No Deputy Speaker Honourable received a request from Hattingh wanted an answer. Honourable Hattingh of the The answer is that the Democratic Alliance to request a
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debate on a matter of urgent Gerber to Member of the public importance relating to a Executive Council responsible Department of Agriculture, for Education, Honourable Conservation and Environment. Tselapedi and will follow the pro- We have granted Honourable cedure as outlined in Rule 139. Hattingh a right to debate that May I check with the House subject, but that subject will not whether Honourable Tselapedi be debated today, because the has delegated somebody to deal Department of Agriculture has a with his questions and interpel- debate today on the Annual lation relating to his depart- Report. ment?
Now I just want to draw the HON. MEC. THIBEDI: attention of Members that the I am an acting MEC for Rules Committee on one of its Education; I will deal with the sitting resolved that there would questions as presented to me be no department that would by the department. have two debates at the same Sitting for the same department. HON. DEP. SPEAKER: We have now granted permis- Honourable Members I am now sion for that matter to be debat- referring you to the question ed in the next Sitting to allow paper. Honourable Thibedi act- the debate of Agriculture on ing MEC Education, we are now Annual Report to proceed today. starting with the interpellation.
I wanted to clear that so that HON. MEC. THIBEDI: there is no confusion over the On this question [0821-1/21] the matter. Can we proceed to the answer will be provided in the next item. next Sitting. There is no answer provided to me. SECRETARY: ITEM NO 4; INTERPELLATIONS AND HON. GERBER: QUESTIONS Honourable Deputy Speaker, I thought that the Honourable HON. DEP. SPEAKER: Thibedi would now give the Honourable Members we have answers and we can debate it, interpellation by Honourable he is an acting MEC for
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Education and by the way could try he should have at least write we have the reason why the to the Office of the Speaker and MEC is not here today and what also to myself that the debate is s the reason, have he made would not be taking place, thank in apology etc. I thank you. you.
HON. DEP SPEAKER: HON. DEP. SPEAKER: Honourable Thibedi. We note your concern Honourable Gerber, the Office of HON. THIBEDI: the Speaker did not either know Well Honourable Deputy that there will be no debate on Speaker, my apologies, let me the interpellation, our attention just indicate that I do not have was never drawn to that effect, any mandate on this interpella- but I think for now lets leave in tion. The MEC is abroad to the the apology that the MEC has Bahamas, I am having the ques- presented, we will make a follow tions that I am supposed to up on the matter as an when the respond to and I want to apolo- MEC for Education is present. gize on behalf of the Department of Education for not Honourable members we pro- being in a position to provide ceed to question 1, a question you with the necessary informa- of Honourable Matladi to tion relating to this particular Premier. May I check whether interpellation and I hope that there is somebody standing in Honourable Gerber through you for the Premier. will be kind enough during this rainy weather to accept this HON. MEC. THIBEDI: apologies. Thank you. Honourable Deputy Speaker, I have just spoke to the Premier HON. GERBER: few minutes ago, she indicated Thank you Honourable Deputy to me that she is in hospital, but Speaker, I accept the apology of I am unfortunately in a position the acting MEC but I have not to provide any response to the been informed either that this question that has been imposed debate will not take place today here. and I think that the Honourable Tselapedi when he left the coun- HON. DEP. SPEAKER:
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So Honourable Thibedi you are must because I am informed by both acting Premier and MEC the rules. for Education? Honourable Members we pro- HON. MEC. THIBEDI: ceed to question 3, it is a ques- For the record, I am not acting tion tabled for the second time, Premier. and it is an oral reply. A ques- tion of Honourable Hattingh to a HON. DEP. SPEAKER: Member of the Executive Honourable Members we pro- Council responsible of Health. ceed to question 2, a question Is there anybody standing for tabled for the fourth time the Department of Health or act- referred to the Premier and this ing in that department? is done in terms of the rule and Honourable Members, the it is a question of Honourable Member of the Executive Hattingh which originally was Council responsible for Health is referred to a Member of the not present, but I will also go Executive Council responsible and check the rules, what does for Transport, Roads and Public the rules say that if a member safety. has a question to answer is not present and has not delegated So this question falls outside the anybody to respond to the ques- ambit of being answered by the tion will check what the rule MEC. It now falls in the ambit of says, because certainly it must being answered by the Premier say something, it cant be silent. because this question is tabled here for the first time and in HON. HATTINGH: terms of the rule, it is no longer Honourable Deputy Speaker, the MEC who must respond, it is perhaps we should consider the Premier. So in the absence having Legislature Sitting on the of the Premier and in the Bahamas to get everybody here absence of anybody delegated and to conclude our business. to deal with this question., this question will also stand over for HON. DEP. SPEAKER: the next Sitting where the You see Honourable Hattingh I Premier must, I say must have refused to be defocused answer the question and I say since this morning and I am
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going to be consistent through reservists, have been issued out. with the following items, I hope it is a question that is have been HON. MEC. VILAKAZI: asked The Honourable Member is (i) Hand cuffs highly provocative. (ii) Pepper spray (iii)Torches HON. DEP. SPEAKER: (iv)Bullet-proof vests; and Honourable Vilakazi wants to (v) Fire arms follow you to defocus the Our response is that one hand House; I will not allow that to cuffs 438, actual members of happen. Question 4, it's a ques- the station and reservists about tion of Honourable Hattingh to a 70, handcuffs issued to these Member of the Executive members permanent members responsible Road, Transport issued on personal equipment is and Community Safety. Ntate 372, hand cuffs to reservists is Vilakazi this question is tabled 410. Pepper spray is 127, and for the second time. reservists is 29. Torches are 358 to permanent members and HON. MEC. VILAKAZI: 154 to reservists. Bullet proof I do answer the question. vests are 293 to permanent members and reservists are HON. DEP. SPEAKER: 373. Fire arms are 383 to per- It is a question that needs an manent members and reservists oral reply. are 111.
HON. MEC. VILAKAZI: 2. Please list the above sepa- I beg your pardon Honurable rately for permanent staff and Deputy Speaker, I will respond. reservists indicated to date of Question 1 says With regard to service and date on which the the issuing of strategic items to respective items were issued. the members of the South Answer; Pepper spray as African Police Service at requested from head office on Rustenburg Police station Kindly the 21st of May 2008. The indicate: VAS2 was captured on the PAS (a) How many members of on 2008 on the 5th month on SAPS both permanent and the 23rd day by Captain Masiti
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who is a Divisional fall under our competency in the Commissioner SCM, indicated department. that he will forward the letter response to our office on the HON. DEP. SPEAKER: 21st indicating that they do not Honourable Hattingh have any pepper spray in stock at the moment. HON. HATTINGH: May I ask whether the environ- Question 3, 4 and 5 if any item ment is not one of the compe- has not yet been issued please tencies of the department indicate why not, what steps are specifically lacking to the Act in place to ensure that the items and the recent Bills? will be issued and by what date will the outstanding items be HON. MEC. SERFONTEIN: issued. I think we have Deputy Speaker, it is correct but responded to that but further- those instances of the river more is that Rustenburg SAPS banks do not fall under the has enough stock in the station department. It falls under the inventory to supply the local government to which we reservists and other members referred the problem. that are in possession of a criti- cal items has listed. That con- HON. HATTINGH: cludes my response. Chair person, illegal dumping sites is the responsibility of the HON.DEP. SPEAKER: department. They cannot shift Honourable Members we pro- their responsibility to somebody ceed to question 5. Question 5 else, if it is illegal in terms of the is a question of Honourable Act, it is that MEC's responsibili- Hattingh to a Member of the ty and he should not pass the Executive Council responsible buck. The responsibility lies with for Agriculture, Conservation him. Can I request that this and Environment. question be carried over Deputy Speaker. HON. MEC. SERFONTEIN: Deputy Speaker this question HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER: has been deferred to the Local My understanding is that the Municipality because it does not question should be carried over
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because my understanding as Honourable Serfontein is that for HON. DEP. SPEAKER: him to respond to the question, We then proceed to question 7. he needs information from I see Member of the Executive municipalities on and around Council responsible for Health, matters relating to environment, and she has just arrived. We and probably as we sit in the are now at question 7 of the next Sitting he must have question paper. There was a received that information so that question referred to MEC of he is able to respond to the Health by Honourable Hattingh questions. We proceed to ques- and that is question 3. May I tion 6, a question of Honourable then request the MEC for Health Hattingh to a Member of the to prepare herself and we will Executive Council responsible revert to this question towards for Education. Acting MEC for the end of the question paper? Education. Ke ne ke re o ipaakanye. Question 7 is a question of the HON. MEC. THIBEDI: Honourable Gerber to a Member Thanks Deputy Speaker, the of Executive responsible for response to the question is as Agriculture, Conservation and follows. Question 1: Kindly indi- Environment. cate the number of North West Schools that do not have proper HON. MEC. SERFONTEIN: toilets Deputy Speaker, I do table Answer: 130 where we stand with the matter.
Question 2: Kindly indicate the HON. DEP. SPEAKER: number of the North West Question 7 needed a written Schools that do not have reply, the answer has been potable water on the school tabled. Now we proceed to Answer: 52 question 8, a question of Honorable Groenewald, ques- Question 3: Kindly indicate the tion 8, Member of the Executive number of North West Schools Council Local Government and that do not have electricity Housing. Answer: 106. Thank you Deputy Speaker. HON. MEC. YAWA:
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Motlotlegi ke a e baya. I so by table the response.
HON. DEP. SPEAKER: HON. DEP. SPEAKER: The answer is tabled, question 9 Answer tabled. Question 13, a a question of Honourable question of Honourable Hattingh to Road Transport and Groenewald to the MEC of Community Safety. Local Government and Housing.
HON. MEC. VILAKAZI: HON. MEC. YAWA: I so by I tabled the response. Ke baya mo le bating
HON. DEP. SPEAKER: HON. DEP. SPEAKER: Answer tabled. Question 10, a Question 14, a question of question of Honourable Hattingh Honourable Hattingh to the MEC to the MEC for Roads, Transport for Health. and Public safety. HON. MEC. RASMENI: HON. MEC. VILAKAZI: I so by table the responses I so by table the response. Honourable Deputy Speaker.
HON. DEP. SPEAKER: HON. DEP. SPEAKER: Tabled. Question 11, a question Answer is tabled, question 15, a of Honorable Hattingh to a question of Honourable Hattingh Member of the Executive for to the MEC responsible for Health. Education.
HON. MEC. RASMENI: HON. MEC. THIBEDI: I table it Honourable Deputy I herby table. Speaker. HON. DEP. SPEAKER: HON. DEP. SPEAKER: Answer tabled, question 16, and Question 12, a question of I am not repeating the same Honourable Groenewald to question, question 16 and it is a Transport Roads, and last question, it is a question of Community Safety. the Honourable Hattingh to the MEC of Education. HON. MEC. VILAKAZI:
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HON. MEC. THIBEDI: al level and if not why not and I herby table the answer. when will it be brought inline.
HON. DEP. SPEAKER: Under the categories of course The answer tabled. we are dealing with Orthotists and Prothesists. Under HON. MEC. RASMENI: approved and control 2 we do Thank you Honourable Deputy not have any new vacancies Speaker, the first question here approved salary level 9, relates to; but cost salary level of this par- (a) What are the number of ticular category is salary level Orthotists and Prothetists in 10, the notch is R271 000. each category: The response is that, it Under Orthotists and Prothesists responds to all the questions control 1, approved posts they which read as follows, that we are 4 vacancies for approved currently do not have any salary level 9, cost salary level Orthotists and Prothetists doing 9, the notch per annum is about community service as they do R174 243 00 this is inline with not follow under categories of the national new standards. professions expected to do com- munity service, and accordingly Orthotists and Prothetists cate- we do not have any posts gory, approved posts they are gazetted for community service about 8, vacancies they are in this regard. about 4 they have employed as yet. Approved salary level is 8, However on our approved cost salary level is 8. The notch establishment we have 46 per annum is R145 920 00 it is Orthotists and Prothetists post inline with the national standard. and only five of these are filled. I table here the illustration and Under the Orthotists and all the question that are follow- Prothetists senior level we have ing here that are asked regard- about 34 approved posts vacan- ing this questions on the vacan- cies 33, and approved salary cies, on the remuneration on all level is 7, cost salary level 7 and the remuneration inline with notch per annum is R117 501 what is being paid at the nation- 00 which is also inline with the
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national standards. The total is institutions that we are servicing about 46 approved posts but we in this particular category. have only employed 5 as I have alluded that he vacancies are 41 HON. DEP. SPEAKER: on this particular category. My careful reading of the Thanks very much Deputy answer is that the MEC is not speaker. certain. She still have to go and verify and come back to the HON. DEP. SPEAKER: House. That is my understand- Honourable Hattingh. ing, unless I am reading it wrong. HON. HATTINGH: Honourabel Deputy speaker I HON. HATTINGH: just wan to make it very clear Honourable Deputy Speaker, but does the MEC state here in this that is exactly the essence of House that there are no the question. Kindly with Orthotists and Prothetists in the regards to Prothetists and North West doing community Orthotists doing the community service and then specifically at service that is the question. the Klerksdorp Tshepong hospi- Now the MEC is not certain, but tal. I would like to get a very I do not know what she is clear yes or no answer from the responding to. MEC because I believe that if I understood her correctly that HON. DEP. SPEAKER: she has been seriously misin- No we take it that the MEC has formed by her department. not responded to the question, and in the next Sitting she will HON. MEC. RASMENI: have to go straight to the Information that I have Deputy answer. The essence of the Speaker is that these Orthotists question whether or not, there that we have in the department are other people who are doing which are 5, they do not actually that community work or not. do the community service that Honourable Members this brings means going out to other institu- us to the end of the questions tions and facilities of the Health and interpellation. Honourable Department, but this information Matladi. will also be verified with other
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HON. MATLADI: Honourable Members as we Honourable Deputy Speaker, I close questions and interpella- rise on question 7 that was set tion and I would want to be tabled, we did not get any Honourable Members to listen response to question 7 rather is very careful, because what I am a letter of apology that it will be going to say it may assist you in tabled after some work is done, future in relation to questions so in our records we have writ- and interpellations. I want to ten the answer is tabled but this read this rule to the House Rule is not the answer, is rather a let- 133, this rule says no interpella- ter that says we are not ready, tion or question maybe we still have to do 1, 2, 3. So I addressed to any person either need the records to be straight than the Premier or another on question 7. Member of Executive Council. Please go and read that rule HON. DEP. SPEAKER: and make sure that you under- Honourable Serfontein you can- stand it, because we are going not present a letter of apology in to use this rule in the next the place of an answer, you can- Sitting for questions that are not. If you have no answer you referred to any other person must say this question would be either than the Premier and answered in the next Sitting Member of the Executive because at least this question is Council. not tabled for the third time. You still have space to respond My preliminary understanding of to the question in the next the question is that, there are Sitting. Now we agree, I do not only two sets of people that can defocus the House. That ques- be asked questions in the tion was not answered and it House, the Premier and stands over to the next Sitting Members of the Executive probably Honourable Serfontein Council, nobody else. This is will then be ready at that time to not for debate, it was important respond to the question. Thank for me to draw the attention of you very much Honourable Members to this rule. We pro- Matladi for bringing our attention ceed to the next item. to that important text.
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SECRETARY: ITEM NO 5; funds, low staffing levels and STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS operational responsibilities.
HON. DEP. SPEAKER: The fire fighters agreed that Does any Member wish to make they can only be the best if sup- a statement in terms of Rule ported by the best. Hence 131 (a)? In the absence of any thanks the community, families, statement can we proceed to fellow colleagues and individu- the next item. Ntate Moalusi. als in the Merafong City Local Municipality for their support. I HON. MOALUSI: thank your Honurable Deputy Honourable Deputy Speaker, Speaker. thank you very much. Let me just take this golden prerogative Then my second statement. to congratulate the Members of Thank you again Honourable the fire Department of Merafong Deputy Speaker. It is with a City Municipality who recently great dismay and regret to excel during a half marathon in report in this august House the the Western Cape. The fire disturbing behaviour by some extinguishers once live to their members of the ruling party in motto to be the best. They the following Local showed much enthusiasm with Municipalities - Tlokwe, tackling long distances as with Merafong and Matlosana. Our their work when they took part in posters were destroyed and the Twin Picks half marathon in removed from the poles. ANC Cape Town in September 2008. posters were glued on top of those of the UCDP. The face of The event was organized by the our leader on the posters was South African Emergency rubbed and scratched. Services Institutes. The total of 19 fire man from Fochville and At the registration stations a Carletonville took part. They group of youth wearing T-shirts competed against emergency bearing the face of Mr. Zuma services athletes from all over threatened senior citizens that if the country. The group was not they were not going to vote ANC detected by the challenges such under the leadership of Zuma in as transport problems, lack of the looming elections were
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going to forfeit their old age it is the ANC youth that took out grants and the unemployed those posters. They must take were to earn R500 weekly them photos, bring them to us, should they vote for ANC. and then we will agree with them. Thank you. The complaint was made to the IEC Coordinator Merafong. It HON. HATTINGH: was lodged with the local SAPS Honourable Deputy Speaker the (case number is available) point of order, I think the who are in process of investigat- Honourable previous speaker ing. UCDP strongly condemns Member is a bit confused, we this kind of barbaric actions by are now on the statements, it is the members of the ruling party; an opportunity granted and however we will continue to pray specifically introducing to this for the members of the ANC to House by the Speaker, to allow have a political tolerance. I Members to make statements thank you. which they can be responses to that but it will not be accepted or HON. DEP. SPEAKER: rejected, so the Honourable You presented two statements. Member is out of order. Thank The first one is on fire fighters you Honourable Deputy and I think the House concurs, Speaker. the second one is on the ANC I do not know what, posters, lead- HON. MADODA: ers, scratched and so on and Honourable Speaker it is a good so on, Honourable Mokomele thing that Honourable Moalusi Mothibi, followed by Honourable actually opened a case against Madoda. those people that they are doing whatever he says they were HON. MOKOMELE-MOTHIBI: doing. But I do not think they Thank you very much Honurable are ANC members Honourable Deputy Speaker. I suggest that Deputy Speaker, and one thing we do not accept this motion Honourable Moalusi says he will because it contains an element pray for the ANC to have politi- of debate. What Honourable cal tolerance, that today he is Moalusi has just alluded to has trying to blame the ANC as a got no proof, so we cannot say party that does not have political
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tolerance. I know it is election issue of illegal postering was nearing because it is the ANC discussed at the IEC, and all that has so many years fought parties and it was actually pre- for this political tolerance for the sented by the DA with photo- space that he is now enjoying graphs, so the big thing, illegal today. So I think let us wait for postering still visible on country the police to investigate and structures eclectic sub-stations take it from there. coming from 2004 and 2006 elections and is still continuing HON. MATLADI: with the new registration cam- Thank you Honourable Deputy paign. Speaker. I am alarmed to hear what my colleagues are saying There was no dispute from the on issues that they cannot really ANC or any other party with ille- have evidence on, and I was gal postering does happened thinking that we should allow and not irregularities is happen- Honourable Moalusi the man ing. I think there were duly con- that was at the sight, the benefit cerns and the very mature of doubt, especially when the response from the leaders of the case will be taken to court. ANC representing the ANC at Then let us not start say who is the IEC was that they will actu- doing what, who is not telling ally call on the hot heads in the the truth, and about tolerance, party to refrain from doing that, we will debate it next time in there is no dispute about that order to know which political amongst those people serving party does not have political tol- under party liaison committee at erance. I thank you Honourable the IEC. Deputy Speaker. Now I really have got sympathy HON. DEP. SPEAKER: and understand Honourable Honourable Hattingh, Madoda's statement. I under- Honourable Maloyi. stand and everybody of us understands that it is very diffi- HON. HATTINGH: cult to this stage to say who is in Thank you Honourable Deputy the ANC and who is not. Thank Speaker, perhaps I should say you. that only on Thursday the same
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HON. MALOYI: tigated and so on and so forth, No Deputy Speaker, I think in order for the ANC to act Honourable Members must against those who might be agree that you cannot make doing things which are not inline unfounded allegations. If you with the law of this country. are a member of the ANC, you must carry a membership of the The last part that also applies African National Congress. Now the other Member from the DA, you cannot come to the the same applies, if in case Honourable House and on the members of the ANC are base that people were wearing involved in doing things which T-shirts of the ANC or T-shirts of are not inline with the law, we the DA, therefore those people will appreciate it if they can are members of that particular come to us and say this mem- party, because members of the ber of the African National UCDP can do the same thing. Congress with the membership They can take ANC T-shirts and card, this number did 1, 2, 3 in do whatever they want. Now order for the ANC to act against you cannot … [INTERRUPT- that person. TION]… Because as the ANC, we have HON. DEP. SPEAKER: avoided making unfounded alle- Honourable Matladi order. gations against other political parties, so they should not do HON. MALOYI: so. It is incorrect and I must You cannot come to the stand here and confirm Honourable House and present Honourable Deputy Speaker, allegations as facts. So what that we know who members of we are trying to say is that they the African National Congress must investigate those things are, we are not confused. If DA before they come tom this is confused they should not House and present those things think that the African National as facts, because we now mem- Congress is confused, we know bers of the ANC. So we will be who are our members and those very happy if the Honourable who are not members of the Member can provide us with ANC are not members of the those details after having inves- ANC because we have records
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in the African National No I was just reaffirming what Congress. We do not go to ral- you have said. This House lies and call everybody, provide must have a respect for the law everybody with food and T-shirts to allow its states to proceed and claim that they are our and act on the basis of the out- members. In the ANC you join come of the court. That is the the African National Congress. fundamental principle of respecting the judicial. HON. DEP. SPEAKER: Honourable Moalusi. Our Honourable Members are now going to give you an oppor- HON. MOALUSI: tunity Honourable Moalusi but Motlotlegi Motltsa MmusaKgotla let me remind you; sometimes ke batla go e tsise maloko a we were discussing the matter batho ba rona ba ANC gore relating to the response of kena le bopaki jo bo tletseng. Honurable Serfontein. This House raised matters as we We have got the information but could not conclude the matter I cannot disclose the information because we have to apply the now because it is under the principle of audi altram partem investigations of the police. I rule. Later we debated a mat- thank you. ter; we said a committee at some stage acted in ultra verus. HON. DEP. SPEAKER: We discussed the issue that Honourable Matladi this con- was before the court of law, we cludes the debate on the state- said the matter is sub judice and ment presented by Honourable therefore cannot be discussed Member. We now proceed to further. the next item.
Honourable Moalusi says on this SECRETARY: ITEM NO 6; matter there has been a case ANNOUNCEMENTS, opened, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS. HON. MOALUSI: Yes Deputy Speaker. HON. DEP. SPEAKER: Honourable Members the Office HON. DEP. SPEAKER: of the Speaker received the fol-
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lowing reports which were Let me now call on Honourable tabled through the ATC of the Baloyi to table the report of the 04th November 2008 and here- Portfolio Committee. by I attached here for your records. Now the tabling was HON. BALOYI: Honourable Premier on the Thanks Honourable Deputy Public Service Commission Speaker, allow me to table the Report (PSC) on the report of the Agriculture, Assessment of Disability Equity Conservation and Environment in Public Service and MEC Portfolio Committee. I therefore Nomonde Rasmeni tabled the table Deputy Speaker. Provincial Council on AIDS Annual Report 2007/08, MEC P. HON. DEP. SPEAKER: Vilakazi also tabled SAPS The debates on these reports Annual Report 2007/08. Now will follow, oh I am told that these reports stand referred to Local Government must also the respective committee for present. I now invite processing. Let us proceed to Honourable Mampane standing the ATC of today and start by in for Honourable Mahlakeng to inviting Honourable Mahlakeng present a report on Local to table the report of the Government and Housing. Portfolio Committee and I take note that Honourable HON. MAMPANE: Mahlakeng is not there but there Honourable Deputy Speaker, I is Honourable Mampane stand- do table the Annual Report of ing in for Honourable the Department of Mahlakeng. Developmental Local Government and Housing. I HON. MAMPANE: thank you. Thanks Honourable Deputy Speaker, I do table the Annual HON. DEP. SPEAKER: Report of the Office of the Honourable Maloyi. Premier on behalf of the Portfolio Committee. I thank HON. MALOYI: you. Deputy Speaker, in your Order Paper this morning, we are sup- HON. DEP. SPEAKER: posed to debate the Annual
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Report of the Office of the Government. Premier and the Premier was supposed to be here, you will HON. MAMPANE: recall that the majority they did Honourable Deputy Speaker, indicate to yourself that some- Honourable Members of EXCO, thing that very unfortunately Colleagues and our Guests. happened this morning and the The Portfolio Committee on Premier fell ill, she is therefore Developmental Local unable to be part of the Sitting Government Housing and today. We want to request your Provincial Affairs met with the good self to move the debate of MEC and senior management of the Premier's Office to Thursday the Department of this week. Developmental Local Government and Housing on the HON. DEP. SPEAKER: 28th October 2008 at the You see Honourable Maloyi, I Legislature Conference Room agree with you on one point, on regarding their Annual Report of one point only, that something 2008/09. unfortunately happened, but I think it is proper that if those The purpose of the meeting was unfortunate things happened, to scrutinize the Annual Report the Office of the Speaker must and to further evaluate the be informed so that we do prop- extend to which the Department er changes and we do it in the of Developmental Local interest of this House proceed- Government and Housing has ing with its business. Well it executed its mandate. During make sense, you cannot pro- the interaction the department ceed with the debates on the highlighted the following Premier in her absence, achievement: because she needs to certain " Training of ward committees questions has raised and those and councilors answers needs to be accurate. " Tabling of budgets of 19 out I will therefore agree that we of 25 municipalities defer this debate to the Sitting of " Submission of financial Thursday. Now I will invite reports by all municipalities and Honourable Mampane to lead that the debate on Local " They conducted IDP audits
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on all municipalities. " Difficulty to comprehend how the Chief Financial Officer of However there are following Ditsobotla Local Municipality challenges: could turn the situation at the " Inability to attract and retain municipality around when she skilled Human Resource was fired from the Department " Lack of technical capacity of Health due to allegedly being both in the department and the in competent among other rea- municipalities sons. " Lack of sustainability of sup- " The delay by the department port provided to municipality in building houses for residence once deployment ceases etc. of Mazista at the Kgetleng Local " None and late submission of Municipality, even though land reports by municipalities to the has been invalid. provincial office Most if not all documents of the As the committee we raised the department do not cater for following concerns other language spoken in the " The department inability to province as they were only writ- inform the committee about hav- ten in English. The recommen- ing invoked Section 139(1) in dations of the committee: Ditsobotlo Local Municipality " The department should " Inability municipalities to inform the Portfolio Committee spend their Municipal about any intervention meas- Infrastructure Grant the (MIG) ures it has taken over municipal- budget. ities. " Reluctance of municipality to " The department should submit annual financial state- develop an intensive capacity ments to the departments. building programme to help municipalities to improve their performances and spending of The issue of disclaimer in rela- the MIGs. tion to the housing funds as " There should be mecha- raised by the Auditor General. nisms in place which will ensure " Lack of proper and adequate that all municipalities are internal control measures such accountable to the department as policies and procedures. about their operations.
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" The department should pro- HON. MATLADI: vide all necessary documents or Ke a leboga mme motsamaisa evidence for every cent that tiro, I do not know what call you they spent. Chair of Chairs, or the one act- " More women, who are well ing on behalf of the Deputy capacitated, skilled and pos- Speaker. Greetings have sesses relevant qualifications, already been made, neverthe- should be employed in senior less I would also like to say it is management positions to a beautiful day today and we address the issue gender imbal- are thankful for the rainfall ances. because it seems our Lord has remembered us. In conclusion Honourable Deputy Speaker, the Portfolio Honourable Chair of Chairs, Committee on Developmental allow me to take part in the Local Government Housing and debate of the Annual Report of Provincial Affairs would like to developmental Local thank the Department of Government and Housing. As I Departmental Local Government present this debate the very first and Housing for the work it has issue I would like to put to the done to ensure that our people Honourable House is the story continue to be given basic serv- of the Ratlou Municipality ices such as water, electricity regarding the EXCO position of and shelter through the provi- United Christian Democratic sion of low cost housing. Party.
However more work still needs Since March 2006, after the to be done to ensure that munic- local government elections, it ipalities are competent and was declared that UCDP had to accountable. I thank you. be represented in the Executive Committee of the Ratlou HON. CHAIR OF CHAIRS: Municipality. Ever since that Thank you very much declaration, the UCDP has Honourable Mampane, the next never been given that position speaker on the list is to date. Letters have been writ- Honourable Matladi. ten to the Speaker of the munic- ipality, the Mayor the MM to the
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MEC of Developmental Local Local Government and Housing Government and Housing and is the issue of underperfor- we have even taken pains to mance by the municipalities in discuss the matter with the the province. I have got the list Honourable MEC on several of them. The first one is the occasions and I need to present Ditsobotla Local Municpality, to the House that the also to say it is a norm that Honourable MEC has even writ- every time a municipality is ten a letter to the municipality to invoked to Section 139 (1) instruct that it be done accord- members of the Portfolio ingly. Committee as well as the Honourable Members of the Every time we discuss the mat- House are informed, that ter with the Honourable MEC, regarding Ditsobotla Local he is very positive that this Municipality it was done without EXCO position will be allocated following the norm and the prac- to UCDP but months pass on, tice and the law that we believe years pass on and nothing is should have been followed, and happening. We appeal to the we do not understand why such House I do not know in which a thing could have happened. way that the House would make it a point that the UCDP is Another municipality underper- granted what is liable to itself. forming is Tswaing followed by Naledi and the Doctor Ruth We would not like to take the Mompati as we have even seen legal way in seeking the position on television that they do not that the law has allocated to the have the R50 million that they party. We would like to say we should be using to pay the work- are highly disappointed that this ers in such municipality and has happened and we are going there are problems, red lights in to look for what ever expenses these municipalities. that could have benefited the party from 2006 to date until this Maybe I must hasten to say be implemented. these few that I have picked up are those that are worse but The second point I would like to others that I am not talking discuss in the Developmental about, do not necessary say
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they are in green lights, they Nevertheless we encourage the also do have problems of finan- province, the government, the cial management, they have MEC of Local Government and problems of submitting their his colleagues to continue with financial statement very late to whatever preparations they the Auditor General or some- have promised the House on times even failing to submit long term preparations to see to them as according to the it that North West people get Municipal Financial water supply. Management Act. We would like these municipalities to be Let me talk about the issue of monitored, and oversight to be the disclaimer that the depart- made by the department as well ment has received based on the as by the Portfolio Committee to issue of housing funds and as I improve their standards of per- talk about this disclaimer refer to formance. the previous debates where he must come to the House each The third point is about the lack Act of Developmental Local of water supply in the municipal- Government and Housing using ities as I have on several occa- the budget for housing, they sions presented motions, pre- have taken more than R200m sented statements regarding and transferred it to another lack of water supply or the province so that houses could shortage thereof. I am happy be build there, and when the that today I can say to then MEC was answering he Honourable Yawa through you was giving all reasons for that Madam Chair of Chairs that at misnorm that had happened. least there is water in Lehurutshe although we are told It is still hanging over this that it is not permanent, that the department that we are not sat- permanent source is not yet isfied with clarity as regarding found but at least there is water the number of the houses that and we are happy for the efforts have been build then, for whom that has been taken so far to and where and even today the see to it that people do have department continues to get a water because water is a source disclaimer due to the housing of life. funds. It says that all is not well
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regarding housing business in later fail to produce what we Developmental Local promised and would produced. Government and Housing. HON. CHAIR OF CHAIRS: Chairperson there is lack of evi- Honourable Matladi, your time is dence regarding the expenditure up. of R785m that was used for housing project in relation to HON. MATLADI: transfers and subsidies dis- Honourable Chair of Chairs with closed in the statement of finan- these remarks I would like to cial performance as raised by support the Annual Report of the Auditor General and we Developmental Local would like the Honorable MEC Government and Housing I wish today to really explain what is you could have told me the min- going on in his department. utes that I would use in debating this Annual Report. I thank you. When there was that accident of people being killed in Mazista, HON. CHAIR OF CHAIRS: we heard the Honourable Thank you Honourable Matladi, Premier promising the people Honourable Moalusi. living there in squatter camps, in tin houses that they would be HON. MOALUSI: build houses. I am sure is Ke a leboga MmusaKgotla I am about a year and some months not going to give a long state- ever since the incident, that as ment here but I have got few we are speaking today no hous- questions to make. On page 55 es has build for the Mazista of the Annual Report, I have got people. We are appealing to some few questions to make the Honourable MEC that and the first question is accord- together with the Premier this ing to Auditor General's Report matter in the Kgetleng Local under the following headings; Municipality at Mazista, at Tangible Capital Assets, the Skielik must receive the urgent Annual Report was unable to attention it deserves. Our peo- obtain sufficient appropriate ple should not believe that we audit evidence for the disposal are saying things without having of other fixed structures of proper planning for them and R31m disclosed in note 22 to
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the financial statement, please es of delivery. All the total hous- explain. ing project valued at R8m approved to date, there are still The other one is the Transfers committed funds of R3m not yet and the Subsidies: Audit spent as it stands in note 17 to General's Report was unable to the financial statement, please obtain sufficient appropriate explain. The amount of R4m audit evidence for expenditure paid over the municipality of R785 000 regarding housing regarding these projects has projects including in transfer and also not being properly account- subsidies disclosed in the state- ed for in terms of Section 10 ment of the financial perform- (4)(f) of 1997 which requires ance due to limitations placed that municipality submit annual on the scope of my work by the financial statements to the entity. Please explain. department please explain. I thank you. Receivable, I was unable to obtain sufficient appropriate HON. CHAIR OF CHAIRS: audit evidence for miscella- Thank you Honourable Member, neous debts of R1m lifting the I now call Honourable Yawa to buildings restrictions of R1m come and respond. Honourable and interdepartmental debts of Yawa. R2m, including in other depts disclosed in note 9.2 to the HON. HATTINGH: financial statements please I have indicated here in the explain. Unauthorized expendi- committee sitting that I would tures. Unauthorized expendi- speak on this issue, I see that tures of R82m in respect of prior you have not called me is there years disclosed in note 7 to the a reason for that. financial statements had not been submitted to the Provincial HON. CHAIR OF CHAIRS: Legislature for considerations in Thank you Honourable Hattingh, accordance with Section 34 your name is not appearing PFMA please explain. under Local Government and Housing, it is appearing in In conclusion, committed funds Agriculture debate. So I am not spend due to lack of servic- given a list; I do follow the list as
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I am given by Honourable the meeting of a preceding and Tshwene. Honurable Hattingh did not appear on the speaker's list and HON. HATTINGH: Honourable Hattingh does not Honourable Chair I must admit appear on the speaker's list that your list is incorrect; I would even now. like to in the debate. If you were to allow Honourable HON. CHAIR OF CHAIRS: Hattingh to speak because he is I am sorry Honourable Yawa, requesting in the house that he Honourable Hattingh says that if must speak, you are going to he cannot debate a child will fall create a situation that you will from the bed, somebody will die. not be able to manage the Honourable Chris Hattingh. affairs of this House because after having spoken, some of us HON. HATTINGH: we might want to do the same, Honourable Chair I wish to which will create a serious prob- reject your commends with con- lem in the House. It is against tent. It is not appropriate for that background that I am say- you sitting in that chair to ing we need to follow the rules engage in that level and it indi- of the House and having said cates no ability to chair the so, Honourable Hattingh must Sitting of this House, I reject that not be allowed to speak, they with content . must sort this matter out in the Portfolio Committee because in HON. CHAIR OF CHAIRS: the House now we do not have Thank you very much, him in the speaker's list. Honourable Nono Maloyi please assist. HON. HATTINGH: Honourable Deputy Speaker, if I HON. MALOYI: may address you on the issue No, Chair of Chairs I have a before by the Chief Whip, the serious problem, the speaker's absence of the speaker's list I list must be approved before the know not a single Member here Sitting of the House, now I must can show a speaker's list, the remind you Chair of Chairs, that problem of the administration this morning you were sitting in headed by that person, the
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Chief Whip is that there are no that Honourable Hattingh will speaker's list distributed, nobody speak, unless you have has got insight into that. It is changed that decision. Let some list that has apparently Honourable Hattingh proceed been drawn up in some smoke and we move to the next step, filled room where he presides. unless your ruling is different. So Honourable Deputy Speaker, My understanding is that you this is a failure of the administra- have ruled that he must speak, tion. Honourable Mahlakeng is and let him proceed to speak on not here today but certainly the the subject so that we proceed democratic right of any Member to the next item. in this House is where to debate on any issue and I think it is HON. GERBER: really outrageous that the per- Honourable Chair? son in that capacity instead of pretending here to be the Chief HON. CHAIR OF CHAIRS: Whip of this whole Honourable Gerber. House…[INTERRUPTION ]. HON. GERBER: HON. CHAIR OF CHAIRS: Thank you Honourable Chair. Point of order, Honourable We have had the working com- Hattingh can I give Honourable mittee on Thursday. The speak- Tshwene a chance. Honourable ers' list was not completed Tshwene can you assist. there. I received a phone call and it reached me after 17:00 HON. DEP. SPEAKER: yesterday and I was requested Chair I am rising on a point of to put on my name if I want to order for purposes of progress. speak. So I think you must give Honourable Tshwene a allow Members that have not chance. Honourable Tshwene, had the chance to put their can you assist. names on the list. Thank you.
HON. DEP. SPEAKER: HON. CHAIR OF CHAIRS: Chair, I am rising on a point of Honourable Vilakazi? order for purposes of progress in this House. You have made a HON. MEC VILAKAZI: ruling as a Presiding Officer, Honourable Chair, I rise on a
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point of order. A kind of lan- HON. MEC VILAKAZI: guage the Honourable Member The words of the Honourable uses in addressing his point is Members says smoke filled really unacceptable. He refers room, taking a decision. That is to the Chief Whip sitting in a very derogatory and I plead that smoke filled room, suggesting the Member must withdraw that that, I mean you cannot be nor- statement and treat each and mal in a smoke filled room. So every Member honorably. he suggest that the Chief Whip is abnormal, and I think we HON. CHAIR OF CHAIRS: should take arm rage with that Honourable Hattingh, can you kind of attack on the Chief Whip, withdraw your statement? but it is also unparliamentary and not very honourable to refer HON. HATTINGH: to Members of the august Chairperson, I do not know House as people sitting in a about how Honourable Vilakazi smoke filled room. I come from grew up, and dagga, and all a township and this kind of a those things. As far as his cul- statement means that some- ture and his upbringing, I know body that sits in a smoke filled nothing about that and I never room is actually smoking dagga. referred to him smoking dagga. That is the interpretation of the I will never accuse him of smok- township I come from. I mean ing dagga. the Honourable Member refers to that, it is highly unacceptable. HON. CHAIR OF CHAIRS: Honourable Hattingh? HON. GROENEWALD: Honourable Chair that has never HON. HATTINGH: been said. So I reject. I know it is very sensitive Definitely this was never been Chairperson but the referral to said …. [INTERRUPTION] …. smoke filled room is saying there was a decision taken in HON. CHAIR OF CHAIRS: the lack of transparency. So I I have not given you a chance replace the smoke filled room, to speak Honourable which is very sensitive to Groenewald. Honourable Vilakazi, and dagga and things like that, which I
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never said, that decisions are Can you withdraw that? taken in this House about speakers' list with the lack of HON. HATTINGH: transparency and behind closed Honourable Chair, you are doors, and Honourable Chair, showing your bias. Can I while we are cleaning the appeal to you to preside in a tables, this baby that was falling none partisan manner please. off the bed, I think perhaps you Can I continue? should consider withdrawing that as well. May I continue? HON. CHAIR OF CHAIRS: No. Honourable Hattingh, you HON. CHAIR OF CHAIRS: were supposed to have indicat- Honourable Hattingh, can you ed that you are going to speak withdraw the statement. today, from your Portfolio Committee, and you have failed HON. HATTINGH: to do that. Members are saying About the baby? that they got telephone calls when they were on the way. HON. CHAIR OF CHAIRS: That is none of my business. The one that you said about the The Chairperson should have Chief Whip, Honourable Maloyi. long told you that you must come and debate. So I am giv- HON. HATTINGH: ing you a last chance today. I said he chaired the meeting in Once I can come and preside a smoke filled room. I do not here and you raise up your hand know who chaired the meeting to say to me that you want to but the meeting certainly hap- speak, I would not allow you. It pened in absence of transparen- is for the first and last time cy. today. We continue.
HON. CHAIR OF CHAIRS: HON. HATTINGH: You know what Honourable Thank you Honourable Chair. I Hattingh, you do not want to be would wish that you would come attacked and you like to attack and sit in the chairs and let us people, and you do not want to debate the issues with none be attacked. This is not your partisan Chair sitting up there. Legislature, it is our Legislature. Honourable Deputy Speaker, if I
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can continue. Honourable Maloyi chaired a meeting of some nature in a HON. MALOYI: smoke filled room. I withdraw Chair, on a point of order. that unconditionally. I do not know who chaired that meeting. HON. CHAIR OF CHAIRS: May I now continue. Your time Honourable Hattingh. I am giving you three minutes. The Department of Local Government and Housing, HON. HATTINGH: according to his Deputy Director The Department of Local General Iqbal Motale, is facing Government and Housing, serious challenges in equipping according to …. [INTERRUP- itself of its constitutional manner TION] …. to support municipalities due to the lack of programme funding. HON. MALOYI: So the department says it is Chair, on a point of order. On a because of lack of funding, but point of order. there are basic things that are not being done which actually HON. HATTINGH: contributed to the department's I am standing and speaking. failure and the department, we all know that is being labeled as HON. CHAIR OF CHAIRS: the worst department in the Order Honourable Hattingh. North West Province, the worst Honourable Hattingh, order. performance in 2007/08 finan- cial year, earning itself a dis- HON. MALOYI: claimer. Now Chair, Honourable Hattingh was instructed to withdraw a Now there are basic things that certain statement which he should be done in terms of leg- uttered, and he did not with- islation, in terms of Acts, and draw. If he did, let him repeat that is the obligation entrusted because we did not hear him to the Member responsible for withdrawing. Local Government in this province, and that acceptance of HON. HATTINGH: responsibility was actually done Chairperson I withdraw that under an oath to fulfill duties.
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Honourable Chair, this is not spent. being done. From the housing department The Auditor General reported kept by the department it was that in terms of Section 10.4 (f) noted that 51% of the projects of the Housing Act 1997, every funds approved prior to 2004 municipality should submit finan- have not yet been spent to date. cial statements to the depart- It is massive and this is a ment and the department is the province with a serious housing custodian of that process. Not a crisis. This is a province where single municipality in this political parties goes to the polls province submitted the required and say they are delivering, and financial statements to the then only 49% of the housing department. Thus the munici- funds are being expended. This palities visited by the Auditor is a disgrace. General could not even submit supporting documentation for The Auditor General further stat- expenditure. That is why our ed that this is an indication of province is in such a mess, as the lack of service delivery far as Local Government is con- regarding housing projects in cerned, as far as housing is the province, and further an concerned. It is a mess. amount of R4,328 billion paid Obviously that gave rise to the over to municipalities regarding disclaimer opinion of the Auditor these projects has also not been General. properly accounted for, not only being spent, and even those Now Honourable Deputy that were spent but not been Speaker, we have listened accounted for. through the years about the proud announcements about Honourable Chair ….[INTER- housing in this province. What RUPTION] …. is the reality, what is the truth? Up to date R8.136 billion was HON. CHAIR OF CHAIRS: approved for housing projects in Wrap off Honourable Member, our province, R8.136 billion, and your time is up. of this R8.136 billion a total of R3.808 billion has not yet been
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HON. HATTINGH: did inform or notify the I will wrap up. So Honourable Legislature. I think we Chair, there are serious prob- answered that in the committee lems in this department and the and I will still continue to provide root of the housing delivery that answer that we did what we problem and the service delivery were supposed to do in terms of problem in this province was the laws of the Republic, having right here and is linked to the informed the Speaker with a let- failure of this department to fulfill ter written to the Office of the its constitutional responsibility Speaker, both the Minister and by keeping local authorities the NCOP. accountable. I would like to hear the MEC's turnaround We even undertook to the com- strategy on the major failure of mittee that in future what we will his department. Thank you. do as the department, whatever that we communicate to the HON. CHAIR OF CHAIRS: Speaker will assist the very Thank you Honourable Hattingh. same communication to the Honourable MEC. chairperson of the committee so that there is no communication HON. MEC YAWA: gap that is there. Thank you very much Honourable Chairperson of On the state of the municipali- Chairpersons, also thanking the ties Honourable Chairperson, it House and the Colleagues and is common knowledge that the Executive Council and the municipalities are facing huge Members and the Committee, challenges. Whilst we were and all the Honourable able to deal with Ditsobotla, also Members of the House. disagreeing that we might have been selective in dealing with Honourable Chairperson, I am our intervention, the situation in going to start with the comments Ditsobotla warranted that we made by the Honourable Miss acted in the manner we acted Mampane. Firstly, on the as the department, having been Ditsobotla intervention, that there repeatedly early in the there was a debate as to year, before the intervention was whether as the department we made in June, and I am happy
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to say to this august House that pality could turn the municipality the intervention that we have around while he or she was fired undertaken as the department elsewhere. I think the qualifica- has been applauded by the tion that she had satisfied us NCOP delegation that was there and as such the support that in the municipality. she could enjoy in the munici- pality and even the stakeholders Honourable Chairperson, the sit- in that municipality have led to uation in the municipalities war- the municipality being able to ranted really an intervention raise the revenue that could which has to vary. The depart- enable the municipality to pay ment has employed the service the workers from their coffers. of the experts from the DPSA, who are deployed to all the I think that I take the comments municipalities that were men- by Honourable Matladi, that as tioned here as the municipalities the department with the munici- that are facing critical chal- palities, we are going to work lenges, which I am not going to tirelessly to see to it that the repeat their names. people get water. We must also understand that the budget that Whilst Section 139 sometimes we are operating with is so thin, tends to be used, it is never the that we cannot be able to give intention of the department each and every household the because in our view we think water, tap in the house. We that should be the last resort hope that the interim arrange- when we see that there is no ments that we have embarked change after the intervention upon in Ramotshere Moiloa will that we have undertaken as the serve, take us a long way until department. We have done so, we find the permanent solution especially in Ditsobotla, after we to the problems. have observed that the ship was really sinking. The other issues about the EXCO Member, which I think is I would not really like to be critical, in Ratlou, you have drawn to the statement by the been asking when I must con- Honourable Mampane, that the firm with you that the problem is CFO who acted in the munici- going to be solved soon. I am
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sure by this month we will have house. You cannot do that with- that dealt with and your EXCO out the bulk infrastructure. The Member will be in place. We problem of Mazista, we are try- have communicated to the ing to relocate them closer to Council that this must be solved the main pipeline. So the work has been undertaken by the The inability of municipality to department. We will be in com- spend, make funding about the munication with the municipality challenge, I must say soon because the space where Honourable Chairperson that the site was allocated was given the municipalities which appear by the mining companies. not to be able to spend are those that are having the The funding to bring water only biggest revenue collection. without sanitation, we will have Rustenburg is one of the cul- to pop out about R200 million. prits, and Matlosana. We are Therefore the best way is to working on that as the depart- move that community closer to ment and we have been engag- the main pipeline so that the ing the department that they funds, if we get them, are sent made funding, that we need to to other needy municipalities. transfer some of these funds to the municipalities which cannot The department Honourable generate enough funding, espe- Chairperson, will continue to do cially for water provision and its best to meet the challenges it infrastructure. I hope that will is facing. The lack of pro- be acceded to. gramme funding is a reality, not just an excuse. When we are to The Mazista project, I have intervene in each and every explained to the committee that municipality, the department has the bulk infrastructure is the to close. Our municipal section problem that I am sure also is having only four people in the caused the delay into the imple- department, which makes it very mentation of the housing proj- difficult to intervene in each and ects. That now, after having every municipality, but we hope agreed on the breaking new that with the continued support grounds, the toilet and the of the DPSA, we will find actual- shower has to be inside the ly the solution, especially in the
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sections which are critical, Water and Forestry will continue financing. to provide that which we can within the limited resources that The Honourable Member we are having. Hattingh says the department is in a mess, it is a mess, that is On the disclaimer which has what he says. I think I will take been raised by all the Members, it that it comes from Honourable it is true that in the past the Mr Hattingh that the department municipalities were made to be is a mess. Whilst our people developers. Since the witness- continue to receive the services es have been observed in the provided by the government and municipalities, we took that appreciate those services, responsibility. Now that respon- because this department is pro- sibility of delivering houses viding for the people who are in resides with the department. need, those who are poor, those We will also continue, there is a who cannot enjoy the benefits team that has been set aside that we are able to enjoy, some between ourselves, helped by of us in this honourable House, the Treasury in the department, where they could have the to reconcile all the statements in swimming pools and everything. housing funds from all the So we will continue to provide, municipalities. Once the work is whether it is in a mess or what, I complete we will report to this think I will leave it to Honourable august House through the rele- Hattingh to continue with that vant committee. statement. Chairperson I might not have I have said once more that the responded to all issues raised. I problem which delays the hous- think that my department and ing delivery, especially in the my office will continue to township, is the bulk infrastruc- engage with the Portfolio ture. I think that actually is a Committee and also provide major problem, which must pre- some of the information that I cede the housing now. have not responded to, formally. However, the Department of I am sure that on the issues of Local Government and Housing, the funds that were also repeat- as well as the Department of ed by Honourable Moalusi and
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Honourable Matladi, and even pliance. Honourable Mr Hattingh, we will communicate those formally in a Honourable Chair, the depart- written reply. ment accounts to the committee on how they used their budget I want to thank everybody and to achieve the intended service all the Members and the com- delivery programmes. Chair, I mittee for raising the sharp am going to put the findings, questions, which will keep us on concerns as put forward by our toes. Thank you very much. members of the Portfolio Committee. There was an irreg- HON. CHAIR OF CHAIRS: ular expenditure by the depart- Thank you Honourable MEC. ment, and I think on several This brings us to the end of the occasions this department has debate. Does the House adopt encountered irregular expendi- the report? Agreed? We will ture as raised by the Auditor now call Honourable Baloyi, General, and these particular Chairperson of Agriculture and matters were not clearly Conservation. Honourable explained by the department. Baloyi? Chair, we did not get the report HON. BALOYI: on all cases that are under Deputy Speaker, Chair of investigation. Ha re so fumane Chairs, EXCO Colleagues, di report, tlaleho, ya gore go na Ladies and Gentlemen. On the le mabarebare a manyofonyofo, chance Chair, October 2008 the a batho ba eleng gore ba Department of Agriculture, sentse, ba utswitse madi a Conservation and Environment puso. Ga ba so tlhagelle, mabit- briefed the Portfolio Committee so a bona le gore di case di on Agriculture, Environment on tsamaela kgole bokanang- their Annual Report of kanang. There is a R5 million 2007/2008. The principle irregular expenditure from this behind this exercise was to pre- department. It was not clearly vent budget overspending on explained. the part of the department, accompanied by disciplinary What has the department done sanctions in cases of none com- on Kgora projects to date? We
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have not received any report. wa re di ne di tshwanetse di What has happened on the last bolaiwe, whether di tsentsha let- case where a man was killed by seno or ha di tsentshe letseno. a lion? Ga re so kreye tlaleho, Ke kile ka makatswa ke ques- a report, gore batho ba rona ba tion ya gore bare the green lomiwa ke ditau. We are all mambas from Canada, the aware Members gore batho ba green scorpions from what, gagotswe ke ditau. America, they are saying no, we Malobanyana mo motho o jelwe should not kill. Now South ke tiger ka mo lefatsheng la Africa will not be Canada, it will Zeerust, ene ga gona tharabolo- not. Canada is Canada and lo mo lefapheng. Ke gore batho South Africa is South Africa. O ba rona ba jewe ke ditau fela raya gore batho ba bangwe ba because ditau gatwe di tsentsha tshwanetse ba bolawe ke ditau, letseno. Ke gore motho a ka no di ba lome and then e be e le bolawa ke tau and then ba e tlo- gore puso ha e etse selo? I gela tau eo. Ga e bolaiwe, e a think re tshwanetse re boele re tlogelwa fela. Go raya gore lebelle melao ya rona gore maphelo a ditau a botlhokwa go melao ya rona ya reng. fetisa a maphelo a batho ba rona, and I am raising these Now Chair, why do we have to particular matters because it is have so many employees in in contrary to National head office, as opposed to the Environment Management Act regions? When are we going to because the Act says ga tau e decentralize some of these func- jele motho or any phologolo e e tions and duties. Office e ke e leng gore e dangerous, phologo- kgolo thata mare ha o labella lo eo e tshwanetse e bolaiwe or ditoloko tsa yone, ha e busy ka diphologolo tseo di tshwanetse mokgwa o o tshwanetseng. di bolaiwe. Now ko tlase kwa, batho ga ba kreye ditirelo tsa maleba. Now Now ke botsisa lefapha gore ba o kreya batho ba bangata-ngata, etsitse eng ka seemo seo, why some of them do not even le sa bolaya ditau tsele tse tsotl- understand their roles and he, whether di ka nna 600 or responsibilities. O bona batho 700, because ditau tse 700 di ba siakaka fela, o ba bona le ko bolaile motho. Therefore molao dišopong ba etsang, maar mo
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tlase go sena batho ba eleng You have decided to say no, this gore ba kgona go representa di House does not have powers. aspirations tsa batho ba rona. No, we just continue in terms of Lefapha le etsa eng ka ntlha e e appointing ten people who are ntseng yalo? sitting there, eating lunch for nothing, squandering govern- Re ile ra lemosa lefapha gore se ment funds at the expense of seke la appointa the board of civilians. It is wrong. I am not directors ya DED, but apart from condoning that as the Chair and that lefapha le tsweletse pele go we are not condoning that as appointa batho bao. Why, the Portoflio Committee of because molao wa DED wa re Agriculture, Conservation and before lefapha le appointa board Environment. Why do you have of directors, le tshwanetse gore to appoint the board, and we le consulte committee e e male- have advised you correctly that ba. In this case the Portfolio you must not appoint. Now I do Committee of Agriculture, not know which powers do you Conservation and Environment have at the level of the becomes relevant. Executive Council. Maybe it is in terms of separation of pow- Now regardless of those interac- ers, but the highest decision tion you have decided to appoint making body in the province is people, because some of us, we the House, the Legislature. view this DED as a money scheme. Ke gore okare batho The Nguni cattle, ha re itse gore ba a kolotiwa, batho ba a patel- go etsagala eng. Everybody o wa, batho ba a louniwa, regard- fiwa dikgomo, batho ba a less of di advise tse re le fileng fiwakaka and so on and so on. tsona gore le seka la appointa Go na le di complaints tse Ntate Mogotlhe. Ga la etsa ngata-ngata, gore this Nguni selo. You decided to appoint, cattle batho ba e batla, le rona contravening, neglecting the ra e batla, because it is alleged decision of the House in ensur- some officials within the depart- ing that you absolve the DED to ment ba ikhumisa ka Nguni cat- one of the directorates in your tle. Ga re tsebe gore e ko kae. department. We have received countless complaints from NWAFU, organ-
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ized structures gore where are tshwaretse lefapha gore le tla these Nguni cattle. I am still lokisa, Ntate Mogotlhe, mare asking today, where are these gore lefapha le lokise, ke back- Nguni cattle? I do not know. ward. E ya ko morago. Then Die duiwel weet. Ga ke tsebe ha re tla mo bare no, ha o gore di ya ko kae. sapote, ha o sapote. It means o tshwanetse o sapote ntho e Houses and flats, what is hap- nngwe le e nngwe, re ha ba re pening with them. Are we dis- eja mae a a bodileng, you must posing them correctly, because support and support and eat, dintlo di a rekisiwa, mare ha o even if you eat wrong things, lebella batho ba di reka ka bo you must eat. Le ha dijo di sa R50 000,00, R100 000,00. butswa you must eat for the Criteria e e berekisiwang ke sake of eating. It is wrong. efe? A ke ya maleba criteria e? E tshwana le dintlo tsa Housing HON. CHAIR OF CHAIRS: Corp. Even if ba bangwe ba Member Baloyi, you must dissenta gore motho a reke ntlo address the House, not the offi- R50 000,00 ba bangwe ba di cials please. reke ka R100 000,00 or R200 000,00 and when you speak HON. BALOYI: and say no, this comrade is not Honourable Chair, I was just a Member, that is corruption. making an example because he is here. Recommendations: Mo malobeng mo dikuranteng The committee should be given go tswile mabarebare a manyo- a report on all cases that are fonyofo. Ga e le gore ke nnete under investigation and we want Ntate Mogotlhe, MEC, we con- specifics there, who is involved, demn that as the Portfolio ke mang lebitso la hae, o ko Committee, and we are saying it kae. You know it is so strange must be investigated. All these Deputy Speaker, some of these things must be investigated and officials ba ba jeleng ditšhelete, that Labone ha e tla, Thursday we are recycling them in other Deputy Speaker, re tshwanetse departments. Some of them are re fiwe nako ya go bolela on in the Department of Public these issues, re seke ra di tlo- Works. Re a recycla mo. Ha o gela fela, because re ne re paletswe kwa ba go isa ko
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masepala, ha o pallwa ko gona selo. Ba bangwe ba jele masepaleng ba go isa ko tšhelete, ba siile, ba tsamaile, Premier, ha o pallwa ko Premier mare re tshwanetse re eme mo ba go isa ko Finance. kajeno, Chair of Chairs re re lefapha le tsamaya pila. Then The committee is very con- ha o ya ko dikopanong batho ba cerned about the irregular re bolella ka di strategy, you expenditure in the department. know, batho ba leka go sensiti- The percentage of builders who sa, di problems tse ngata-ngata do not comply is very high. tse eleng gore, motho o o buwa Therefore anybody who is not ka eng o. A re lokiseng. complying, that kind of a builder must be closed with immediate Ha re re lefapha le a bereka, re effect, without actually coming lokise. We must clean. Ha go with examples that are irrele- na le corruption mo lefapheng, vant, of Canada and USA. ha batho ba le corrupt a ba South Africa is South Africa, it ntshiwe. Ha e le gore ke cor- will not be Canada. South rupt ke le Baloyi, ke tshwanetse Africa is South Africa, full stop. ke ntshiwe as a Member because ke corrupt, ha ke fit for The department must commit to go tsamaisa palamente, ha ke fit re-inspect some of these facili- for go tsamaisa lefapha. So ke ties, le di lebelle seša, le di kopa gore ko bofelong ke re lebelle, re seke ra bolela fela ka Deputy Speaker, ka Labone re letseno batho ba rona ba tlhoko- kgopela gore this matter e e fala. Ha re le batle letseno leo reisitsweng ke ntate e, e botl- because le bolaya batho ba hokwa. rona. Now re mo for batho, ha re mo for ditau. HON. CHAIR OF CHAIRS: Can you wrap off Honourable The department should submit a Member. report on the Boikhutso project. Mo malobeng Deputy Speaker, HON. BALOYI: Chair, re ile kwa, di project tsa Re kgopela gore o e fe two rona ha di tsamae sentle. Batho hours. If it comes to a push you ba ba filweng dimilione tsa dimil- must suspend everything for ione, di project di wele. Ha Thursday. We must discuss this
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one of Agriculture, and we con- about the performance in the demn these allegations ha di le department. Now I have got two teng. Mabarebare a ba bole- questions to ask. What are you lang ka ona a, re a a condema going to do about this none per- ha e le gore a teng, and ha e le forming and sub-standards in gore batho ba sentse, a ba tlosi- your department? The second we mo ditulong tsa bone. Ke a question is, how are you going leboga Mmusakgotla. to resolve these irregularities that are prevailing in your Re kgopela gore lefapha tse department? tsentshe dinama mo marapong. Ha le so bereke, le sa leka. Le Jaanong ke go fa maele, ha ke a leka, ha le so etse selo. Ha ne ke dumelwa gore ke bue ke so bone selo ke le Fanakalo ke ne ke ka bua Modulasetilo. Ke bona fela Fanakalo jaaka motho wa ko tlhakatlhakano, tlhatlharuana, dimaeneng ke re, "Yini wena concoction, ntho e ke sa sienza ko lungisa lo mathata lo." tsebeng gore e ya kae. So re re Jaanong ka re, Sesotho se a re, ha le so bereke, and ha la "Monna o tentshwa tsheha ke tshwanela go re convinca ka go monna o mongwe." Jaanong ke defendana mo. Re tshwanetse ne kere o seke wa tlhabiwa ke re ye, re phose, re lebelle gore kgala. Ga o pallwa ke depart- le etsitse eng, re ye area by ment, gonne le setse le le seven area, re bone dilo tse le di since 1994, 7 MECs, di ntse di entseng. Ke a leboga Chair. palelwa ke department tse, ba palelwa ka ntlha ya se se HON. CHAIR OF CHAIRS: diragetseng, se ntse Rre Baloyi Thank you Honourable Member, a se buwa. Jaanong ke ne kere thank you. The next speaker is o seke wa tshaba go tla fela o Honourable Moalusi. tla ko UCDP o re, UCDP re paletswe, tsayang lefapha ke le, HON. MOALUSI: le le rane. Ke a leboga Ke a leboga Modulasetilo. Ha Modulasetilo. Rre Baloyi a fetsa go buwa, ekete o ka re amen, kereke a e HON. CHAIR OF CHARS: tswe. O buile nnete, but to the Thank you very much relevant MEC I am worried Honourable Moalusi. Why do
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you stand up Chris? I have not have consistently and my col- called you. Honourable leagues here in the committee, Hattingh? and I have confirmed that again here this morning in the commit- HON. HATTINGH: tee and you know that I have Thank you Chairperson. Thank asked repeatedly, and I have you for the opportunity and may begged, please take the com- I once again appeal to you to be mittee to one, just one, success- none partisan on the chair. ful agricultural project in the Honourable Chair, on my way North West Province, success- here this morning I thought ful, sustainable, where people about this department and the can live of the land and they do questions came up: Why do we not need government hands out have a Department of to live. Just take us to one. We Agriculture in the North West are still waiting. Province? Secondly, do we need a Department of We have been taken to farms, Agriculture in the North West to places where people have Province? been put and live in misery. We have been taken to farms where Now those are serious ques- people were previously, where tions and the fact that it actually they got together and then pur- can be asked is indicative of the chased the farm and they have serious problems in this depart- lost everything. They owe Land ment, and yes, my colleague Bank money. They owe every- stated, I think it is perhaps more body money and they are mov- than seven MECs. I think the ing off the farm, it will be liqui- average lifespan of the MEC in dated. this department is about seven- teen to eighteen months and The venture of the Department then they get fired, replaced, of Agriculture into the agriculture resign, whatever. They do not out there in this province is a last, and with the replacement of failure and leaves people in mis- MECs goes the restructuring of ery. So that is why I say do we the department as far as senior need this department. Do we executives are concerned, and I need the involvement in agricul- ask these questions because I ture. Should this not just be
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simply handed to National, or through in agriculture and to privatized, because all indica- become commercial farmers. tions are that this department There is no success story in this exists and lives only for itself. province, nothing. I said that it That is the output. Okay, there appears that this department are media output in which mil- exists to live and sustain itself lions are invested and that is only and I think last week unceremonious media events Friday's article in the Mail & where rands and projects are Guardian where this was high- being handed over to the com- lighted where the DDG of this munity. department approved a R1.1 million to Thatano farms and That project which we discussed where he was a signature on this morning where more than behalf of the department, two R100 000,00 was spent on the inches from there in the right former President's handing over hand side he was a signature of this project to people, to five for Thatano farms, R1.1 million young farmers. When we were and according to reports and there last, only one was still documents in our possession involved and the other two work this was approved by the MEC in town. They left, and yet these himself. people got stuck with the account for that media, every- This in the same province where body was entertained, people people who have been assisted were bussed in and food was to start a vegetable farming presented. That was added to went out of business because of the Land Bank loan, and even one incident and that ended the the painting of some roofs and project. The water tank was things there was for that occa- blown off the stand by the wind sion to make it look very nice on and it was broken, and there is TV, was added to the Land no support, no money, nothing, Bank loan. to just get themselves another water tank and get them in pro- This is a standard of this depart- duction again. The whole proj- ment and the involvement in the ect failed but one incident, peo- community that we want to ple did not have the money to empower to make a break- insure the water tank, there is
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no money forthcoming from the HON. CHAIR OF CHAIRS: department to put them back in The next speaker, Honourable business, yet there is R1.1 mil- Matladi. Go to you seat lion for the already privileged to Honourable Hattingh. continue with private enterpris- es. HON. MATLADI: Thank you Honourable Chair of Honourable Chair, the history of Chairs. Honourable Chair of this department is a serious Chairs, I am happy to take part concern. It lives from qualifica- in this debate of the Annual tion to bad audit reports to quali- Report on Agriculture and fication and visa-versa. It never Conservation. Looking at this really comes out into the open report I remembered the begin- and to be a proud and ning of this year when I came respectable department. with a report from Tshidilamolomo concerning Unless there is a turnaround ditshwene tse di senyetsang strategy that may work and balemi ba Tshidilamolomo, di ja unless we get real commitment, dijalo, di ja le dipotsane. why this department that they are willing to implement agricul- I took pains to report the matter tural project in the interest of the to the Honourable MEC of people out there and make them Agriculture and give him the work, rather fewer projects but request ya morafe, that the make them work because noth- department must come, visit ing is working out there and we them and see what is to be have got the committee under done concerning the damage the Chairperson of Honourable caused by the baboons. I am Baloyi, have visited quite a num- sorry that to date the depart- ber of projects, and they can all ment has not done anything testify. We do not find happy regarding the matter. people out on these projects. Somebody is laughing, it seems They are all unhappy. They all a joke, especially when you eat have got complaints. It is not and others are hungry. working. They live in misery, and this has got to end. Thank It was a very very serious report you Chair. that we received from
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Tshidilamolomo people who said tenders are allocated to people they do not even get any sup- who are failing to do what can port, agricultural support, from be helping our people, especial- the Department of Agriculture ly regarding agricultural matters. while other tribes do receive. They are told that their land is As Honourable Hattingh was not meant for farming and they presenting, we have been to dif- needed the department to come ferent farms where the people and assist them. I once more, were grouped. They were given as it is raining now, urge the agricultural implements or department to go back to equipments to continue work Tshidilamolomo, discuss the where the other farmers that matter with the morafe and stayed there had ended. kgosi and see what is to be done. In all the cases that we have visited, there is no success Motlotlegi Modulasetilo wa story. It is failure, failure, failure Baduladitilo, ntlha e e botlhoko everywhere. Where vegetables ka tshwene ke gore ga e are ploughed they are eating the bolawe. Tshwene ke seka money into people's pockets. motho. Morafe wa Where the chicken are Tshidilamolomo wa re fa ba sa ploughed, eggs eaten and chick- thusiwe ba tla itseela ditshwetso en would follow and you would mo matsogong ba bolaya only find nothing except the ditshwene. Se e tla nna moila. place where you would be We are appealing to the shown, this used to be where Honourable Serfontein through the project was, tractors owned your chair that he takes this by some individuals and other matter very seriously. vehicles that were meant for projects. We would like these The second matter Chair is issues to be attended to. about the unsustainable projects in the Department of Agriculture Honourable Chair of Chairs, and the irregular or unlawful when I talk about the DED I way in which some of the ten- become as aggressive as the ders are being awarded. We Honourable Chair of the have received reports where Portfolio Committee, a pity that
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my aggression cannot be shown until time comes that we get a as he was able to present his, full report and we debate the but the recommendations of the DED matter. SCOPA that came into this House to be adopted stated cat- Lions are mauling North egorically clear that DED should Westerners. There was a case be abolished. in Zeerust, there was a case in Stella in the side of Bophirima When the Honourable MEC and we always get a story about answered the question that was regulations being followed, but it asked by Honourable Hattingh is the person that died that regarding the existence of DED, made a mistake that has result- the MEC said they disregard ed into that person's death. We what SCOPA says because it is are not convinced. We are not just a committee and later on he convinced. We would as well said he is withdrawing such a be happy if investigations could response, but the fact that DED be conducted on both cases is continuing states and proves and the government should that the response is not with- always pronounce its intention, drawn, because the department whether we allow these lions to is not doing what the House has be bred in our province. We resolved to be done regarding have already said we know, we DED. are talking about a money mak- ing project and people might not In it there is this investigation agree with us when we say let it that is also captured by the stop. Auditor General on the sale of tractors where one tractor I am concluding my debate amounted to R2 million accord- Honourable Chair, and as I do ing to the documents presented so I am asking about the project to the Portfolio Committee and in Boikhutso and other projects to SCOPA and we are worried that we were told about in that this is just a tip of an ice- Khutsong, Merafong, that is at berg. The rest can make you the expenditure of the province, faint when you get such a since we are hearing that report. We will wait tirelessly as Merafong is going back to Honourable Baloyi was saying, Gauteng. What will happen to
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the rest. Thank you Honourable Africa. To have projects for the Chair of Chairs. disadvantaged people in the previous regime, got the support HON. CHAIR OF CHAIRS: of the DA, got to have projects Thank you Honourable Member. and buy thousands of hectare Honourable Groenewald. for these people while no one has the skills to produce food by HON. GROENEWALD: farming is a waste of money and Thank you Honourable Deputy fruitful land. There is no way Speaker. Honourable Members that one can put hundred or of the Legislature, officials of the more people on a farm and tell department. Agriculture is the them to farm. most important activity in South Africa. Without food on the After a week everyone want to table everyone, the economy, be a manager and no farming industries, mining, etc. will come takes place, but only a lot of to a standstill. inner fights. The main purpose of the department is to identify The way government handles the right people to put on the claims will show us in which farm and teach them the skills to direction South Africa went. make a success of the farm. Land reform is important, but to Let experienced farmers also distribute land to people who do make an input and let them be not have the skills to produce mentors on the farm until the food for the nation are irrespon- new farmers know what to do sible. It seems if South Africa and how to do it. became a country who always export tons of food to other With oversight visits in the countries, are already busy province more failures than suc- importing food, what happened cesses were seen. The farmers to the food basket of Africa. who made the success are well managed and they are highly The red lights are on and a dra- motivated to be food farmers matic change must be made by and they also want to look after the department and government themselves and not by the gov- to see that more food be pro- ernment. They want to produce duced by farmers in South food for the country and to be
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proud of what they achieved on in the process of issuing the their own farms. Some of the permits and the collection of projects suffered a lot and get permit review must urgently be on their feet and start producing addressed by the department. food In some of the cases highly skilled staff remains a problem Boikhutso piggery project was in all four programmes of the very far from a success, with department. three pigs on the project and six women who must make a living An emergency plan must be put of it. I do not know. on the table for discussing how to motivate employees to stay in Refiloe co-operative, the depart- the jobs to the benefit of the ment must host an indaba and agricultural department. It invite all the beneficiaries who seems the budgetary constraints struggle with the projects, to dis- is the biggest problem to keep cuss the challenges faced by employees in the job. The them and also try and find solu- shortage of staff in the direc- tions. The problems faced by torate since the beginning of the the lion breeders in the province financial year had a big effect on can also be solved. Is the delivery in the department. The department having the right poli- lack of equipment such as com- cies to be implemented? With puters, GPS and others are also the policy in hand put together putting a big strain on the opera- by the department and the lion tion side of the support service breeders is a very useful tool to in the department. It is not very force the lion breeders to have clear why there is at this stage, everything in place with the after many years, a lack of specification on the cages. equipment. The department has many years in the past put the The DA believes that there is a shortcomings in the budget and place and the future for the lion get what they need to have an breeders in the province as long operational department. as they obey the policies and the law. The issuing of hunting Once again Honourable Deputy permits is also a challenge for Speaker, the DA has said it in the department. The loopholes numerous occasions in this
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House, no department or institu- The department waste millions tion can function on all cylin- of rand to start with projects all ders. It is a lack of clear poli- over the province, which is not cies and guidelines as it is in the sustainable and with people who department. There is no excuse do not have any management to have the right policies in skills. South Africa is a dry coun- place and to manage the try and the people must look at department according to that. the water resources as well as To implement the policies in a the underground water we have. functional way you must also The North West Province suffer have trained people and enough with limited water in the offices and working space province. The Department of where employees feel comfort- Agriculture knows that agricul- able to do their job. ture is one of the main users of water and therefore the use of HON. CHAIR OF CHAIRS: water must be utilized with the Wrap off Honourable Member. biggest responsibility from the consumers. HON. GROENEWALD: The poor participation in the Again the DA ask the depart- environment service programme ment to have the necessary must be addressed urgently. All hand on policies in place in stakeholders must take part and cases where farmers ban the must also be informed about the law by misusing water in the importance of the projects in the province. The DA will always province. The way of getting support the department in their information to the relevant decisions as long as it is with stakeholders will always play an responsibility. I thank you. important role. The biggest challenge in programme fee, HON. CHAIR OF CHAIRS: district services is food security. Thank you Honourable Member. In the first stage we must have The last speaker, Honourable sustainable food security proj- Mokomele-Mothibi. ects and hand-in-hand with the department must provide train- HON. MOKOMELE-MOTHIBI: ing to the scheme participants. Deputy Speaker in absentia, Honourable Chief Whip too in
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absentia, Honourable Members of this august House, We do agree with the depart- Honourable Members of EXCO ment Honourable Chair of and all people present here. Chairs, on the issue of natural factors like changed weather Honourable Chair of Chairs, on patterns and change of rainfall the report of the Accounting patterns, but I still ask myself, Officer, page 84 under Key as an agriculturist, the depart- Strategic Issues facing the ment should be knowing what to department and the sector, I do in order to help that our com- have picked up some that I munities survive would like to emphasize on. The first one is scarce skills Honourable Chair of Chairs, it is such as economists and envi- with regret to inform you that ronmentalists, air quality special- last month we were invited to ists and engineers. Disaneng for World Food Day and we were taken to projects. My concern in this regard is The first one was irrigation what does the department really scheme whereby millions and do about these challenges. Is millions like Honourable the department not supposed to Chairperson has just alluded to, have given more learners bur- was spent, and the place is saries in order to alleviate the abandoned. There is nothing problem, and one can just again planted on that area. Instead ask oneself what happened to there are many tractors there, the culture of planting vegeta- there are steels rusted. They bles at households, like before. tyres of the tractors have cracks Why does the Department of because of just being standing Agriculture not workshop people there without being used. The on simple planting skills in the place is vandalized Honourable meantime when they are still Chair of Chairs, and when ask- maybe working for these other ing the question what happened intellectuals to come back from to the project we learned that school, and again instead of the money was used only on buying expensive machinery salaries. So you can just imag- that at the end of the day is not ine taking the millions of govern- even used. ment to go and give to the peo-
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ple who did not do even one job expenditure. on that. Honourable Chair of Chairs, with Anyone of us here can go and regard to the appointment that see that place. There are steel the Chairperson talked about, I pipes that have rusted, that really concur with the have never been used. You can Chairperson, for the defiance imagine, there are so many appointment that the Accounting there. We felt so bad really, Officer did. I concur with the when thinking that our people Chairperson. I even further say are sleeping hungry, but there is the appointment should be money lying there, rusting. So reversed so that he should fol- again we were taken to the fish low the proper procedure. project whereby we could not even access because the gate Lastly Chair of Chairs, we do was locked. So you can just appreciate that after many years imagine if the gate is locked, it the department has at long last means there is nothing going on spent R6.2 million on repairing there. of pivots and sprinkler systems in Taung as well as the comple- So I have realized Honourable tion of structure of the bridge. Chair of Chairs, the department will really bear with me, I have Honourable Chairperson, the realized that the Department of Department of Agriculture Agriculture has got the tendency should know that they are the of physical dumping and say department that can really allevi- they spent about 84.5% of their ate poverty. They are the first budget. There is no monitoring department that can be seen in what they are doing. They alleviating poverty. So they just give money so that they can must lead all the departments in say they have spent money. At this regard. I thank you the end of the day they do not Honourable Chair of Chairs. monitor, nobody cares what has happened to the money. That is HON. CHAIR OF CHAIRS: total physical dumping, and at Baie dankie Agbare Mokomele- the end of the day it is wasteful Mothibi. Agbare Jan Serfontein. expenditure. It is wasteful
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HON. MEC SERFONTEIN: ture to be run, but it is not that Honourable Chair of Chairs, easy to do it because we also Honourable Colleagues, can I must look at land given back to start with the last comment people, they are in groups. So where the Honourable Member government is working on it and said that the department must I know some of it collapsed, it is lead in poverty relief. true, but the way you put it here, I thank you because that is the I think that is one of our biggest way we want to go. Thank you problems that we must relieve for that. poverty but also produce food commercially and that is a huge I want to talk to my Chair. problem because at the end of Thank you for your speech. I the day it will relieve poverty, agree, we are not Canada. We group people together, the do it differently here. We talk to infighting and those things, but I each other very hard and we try listened to those comments. I to put things correct. I agree want also to start backwards with you. The matter of the and then come forwards with flats, these are matters of the Honourable Hattingh. DED and we will discuss it in the Annual Report of the DED. Honourable Hattingh, I must Also I listened to what you say, agree with some of the things pointing the board of DED, but you say. I also agree that some you know Chair, we discussed it of these projects, and lot of with you. We consulted the them do not work because of committee but you had a differ- good dynamics and then also ent view. We agree on it that because of economics. If you you have a different view, but do not have economics of scale we appoint the board because in agriculture, and the high input otherwise it will be unlawful and cost, if we cannot correct that it will be contravening the we will always have problems PFMA. That is why we have with collapsing projects. done it. So there is also regula- tions that we must look and han- Honourable Groenewald, the dle. way you have spoken here, that is the idea how we want agricul- On the suspension of officials, it
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is true, officials were suspend- qualifications in 2006. They ed, two were dismissed and two have been reduced to two in resigned. Boikhutso Piggery, 2007/2008. So there is that report is with the commit- improvement in the financial tee. Refilwe Co-operative, that management. We have agreed report is also with the commit- in the committee that things are tee. Lion breeders, the report is not right and that we are work- with the committee. As you ing on it, but it is like a huge asked, the Nguni board is not ship that you must turn. It is not with you but the names of the that easy. beneficiaries is with you and I want to tell you who is the direc- Wild animals, I know about the tors of the Nguni, the board of baboons. We agree there are directors is Mr Tsele, regulations, like the leopard that Department of Agriculture; Mr was recently shot and then Mohane IDC and Professor there is also, that we can look at Mbawo of the North West it, but I know, I have spoken University. So those people about those baboons. They handle who gets cattle and who come from Botswana, they are does not get cattle. So we must there today, tomorrow they are actually ask them in the future back in Botswana. The officials and I will check how does some looked at it, but we will really people get it, as you say you do look at the problem again. not get it, but I think it is the Those projects, I want to go board. back to them that collapsed, it is really hard because the national Irregular expenditure, it is being department appointed a commit- taken up with Treasury to reor- tee now to look at group dynam- ganize it. The Kgora Centre, ics, because that is one of the the department has acquired biggest problems that you will agreement with NWAFU for the find is group done, and the training of youth and the project national department is involved start next year. There is also with that. ARC research project accom- modated at Kgora. Most of the projects that work is a family project and where one Qualification: There were eight farmer is farming on a farm.
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They have now seen that that is next time I stand here or maybe the way to go but we still have when we meet again that we the other projects, what is going can agree on more of these on. There was a question about issues, and all the other Disaneng Irrigation Scheme. Members, especially We will answer that in writing, Honourable Groenewald, the but also there that day I was way you spoke here, that is the with you at the project. way we want to go. I know things are not right and we are It was handed over to the com- really putting structures in place munity, but what I have checked so that we can really say to the there, it is the water license that committee we have done it but they needed there to irrigate, not today. Thank you very and then what happened, and much. that happened to all irrigation farmers and even you sitting in HON. CHAIR OF CHAIRS: the Legislature, the Eskom Thank you very much prices went through the roof. If Honourable MEC. This brings you start those pumps today, in us to the end of our debate. the days when they were plant- Does the House adopt the ing there it would cost R2 report? Next item, Proceedings 000,00, today it will cost R60 on Bills. I will now call upon the 000.00. So the economics out Secretary to introduce the first of agriculture is really not there. reading. So you have to go another way and we are really looking to SECRETARY: ITEM NO. 8, make things profitable for the PROCEEDINGS ON BILLS farmers. Introduction and first reading The North West Tender Board I thank all the questions. We Repeal Bill, 2008 have noted some that we are going to answer in writing but HON. CHAIR OF CHAIRS: Chair, you know, you and me Thank you. I will now allow always talk very hard to each Honourable MEC Modiselle to other. I agree with some of it, table the North West Tender some of the things we do, you Board Repeal Bill. Honourable and me agree. So I hope the Modiselle?
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HON. MEC MODISELLE: maintain these Treasury instruc- Thank you Madam Chairperson, tions, the Provincial Treasury Colleagues. I rise before this issued Supply Chain august House to table the North Management Practice notes on West Tender Board Repeal Bill operational practices and norms of 2008, to bring an end in the and standards. province, the existence of the North West Tender Board. Provincial Treasury has directed that all departments must have The motivation is as follows: duly appointed departmental This is an entity that has spent procurement committees under millions in the past as a govern- the authority of the Accounting ment procurement entity and Officer. One of the key duties of which has been able to facilitate the departmental procurement numerous contracts between committee is to adjudicate on the provincial government and tenders under delegated author- service providers. ity of an Accounting Officer. The promulgation of the Public This function was formally per- Finance Management Act has formed by the Tender Board and presented upon us a new era there is thus no reason for the where provincial departments continued existence of the are required to take full control board. and management of financial resources appropriated to them. Madam Chairperson, on the That includes the functions for- basis of the above we recom- mally performed on their behalf mend that the North West by the Tender Board. That is Tender Board Act be repealed. I procuring of goods and services. therefore table the North West Tender Board Repeal Bill of Pursuant to the provision of the 2008. The Bill has already been PFMA our Provincial Treasury published in the Provincial issued Provincial Treasury Government Gazette in compli- instruction no. 11 of 2005, that ance with the rules of this means into first and effect House, and the hard copies, Section 38 of the PFMA in the bearing the stamp of the provin- province, with effect from the 1st cial law advisor have been of April 2005. To support and made available for circulation. I
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thank you Madam Chair for the HON. CHAIR OF CHAIRS: opportunity. Thank you. This Bill stands referred to the Finance, HON. CHAIR OF CHAIRS: Economic Development and Thank you very much Tourism Portfolio Committee. Honourable MEC Modiselle. This brings us to the end of Does the House agree that this today's business. Thank you Bill be read for the first time? very much Honourable Secretary will read the Bill for Members. The House is the first time. Secretary? adjourned until Thursday.
SECRETARY: This Bill is called the North West THE HOUSE IS ADJOURNED Tender Board Repeal Bill 2008.
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