JAN 1'1~> FJ ® PLAYBOY INTERVIEW: MARTIN LUTHER KING a candid conversation with the nobel prize-winning leader of the civil rights movement On December 5, 1955, to the amused himself; and millions were outraged by So heavy, in fact, were his commit­ annoyance of the white citizens of Mont­ front-page pictures of Negro demonstra­ ments when we called him last summer gornery, Alabama, an obscure young tors being brutalize d by the billy sticks, for an interview, that two months Baptist minister named Martin Luther police dogs and fire hoses of police chief elapsed before he was able to accept Ottr King, ]1-., called a city-wide Negro boy­ Bull Connor. request for an appointment. We kept it colt of its segregated bus system. To In the months that followed, mass sit­ -only to spend a week in Atlanta wait­ thei1· constemation, however, it was al­ ins and demonstrations erupted in 800 ing vainly for him to find a moment for most 100 pe1·cent successful; it lasted for Southern cities; President Kennedy pro­ more than an apology and a hun·ied 381 days and nearly bankrupted the posed a Civil Rights Bill aimed at the handshal

"Measures must be taken at the· Federal "I'm getting sicli and tired of people say­ "The Nobel award Tecognizes the amaz­ level to wrb the reign of terror in the ing that this movement has been infil­ ing discipline of the Negro. Though we South. It's getting so anybody can kill a trated by Communists. There are as many have had 1·iots, the bloodshed we would Negro and get away with it, as long as Communists in this freedom movement have lin own without the discipline of non­ they go through the motions of a trial." as there are Eskimos in Florida." violence would have been frightening." Reprinted from the January 1965 issue of PLAYBOY @1 965 HM H Publishing Co., In c. you have to go to jail so much?" I told Mrs. Bradley; she's dead now. I had par­ U. S. Supreme Court had declared that her that I was involved in a struggle to ticipated there in an oratorical contest bus segregation in Montgomery was un­ make conditions better for the colored sponsored by the Negro Elks. It turned constitutional. It had literally been the people, and thus for all people. I ex­ out to be a memorable day, for I had darkest hour before the dawn. plained that because things are as they succeeded in winning the contest. My PLAYBOY: You and your followers were are, someone has to take a stand, that it subject, I recall, ironically enough, was criticized, after your arrest for participat­ is necessary for someone to go to jail, be­ "The Negro and the Constitution." Any­ ing in the boycott, for accepting bail cause many Southern officials seek to way, that night, Mrs. Bradley and I were and leaving jail. Do you feel, in retro­ maintain the barriers that have histori­ on a bus returning to Atlanta, and at a spect, that you did the right thing? cally been erected to exclude the colored small town along the way, some white KING: No; I think it was a mistake, a people. I tried to make her understand passengers boarded the bus, and the tactical error for me to have left jail, by that someone had to do this to make the white driver ordered us to get up and. accepting bail, after being indicted world better-for all children. She was give the whites our seats. We didn't along with 125 others, mainly drivers of only six at that time, but she was already move quickly enough to suit him, so he our car pool, under an old law of doubt­ aware of segregation because of an ex­ began cursing us, calling us "black sons ful constitutionality, an "antiboycott" perience that we had had. of bitches." I intended to stay right in ordinance. I should have stayed in pris­ PLAYBOY: Would you mind telling us that scat, but Mrs. Bradley finally urged on. It would have nationally drama­ about it? me up, saying we had to obey the law. tized and deepened our movement KING: Not at all. The family often used And so we stood up in the aisle for the even earlier, and it would have more to ride with me to the Atlanta airport, 90 miles to Atlanta. That night will nev­ quickly aroused and keened America's and on our way, we always passed Fun­ er leave my memory. It was the angriest conscience. town, a sort of miniature Disneyland I have ever been in my life. PLAYBOY: Do you feel you've been guilty with mechanical rides and that sort of PLAYBOY: Wasn't it another such inci­ of any comparable errors in judgment thing. Yolanda would inevitably say, "I dent on a bus, years later, that thrust since then? want to go to Funtown," and I would you into your present role as a civil KING: Yes, I do-in Albany, Georgia, always evade a direct reply. I really rights leader? in 1962. If I had that to do again, I didn't know how to explain to her why KING: Yes, it was-in Montgomery, Ala­ would guide that community's Negro she couldn't go. Then one day at home, bama, in 1955. E. D. Nixon, a Pullman leadership differently than I did. The she ran downstairs exclaiming that a TV porter long identified with the NAACP, mistake I made there was to protest commercial was urging people to come telephoned me late one night to tell me against segregation generally rather than to Funtown. Then my wife and I had to that Mrs. Rosa Parks had been arrested against a single and distinct facet of it. sit down with her between us and try to around seven-thirty that evening when a Our protest was so vague that we got explain it. I have won some applause as bus driver demanded that she give up her nothing, and the people were left very a speaker, but my tongue twisted a'nd my seat, and she refused-because her feet depressed and in despair. It would have speech stammered seeking to explain to hurt. Nixon had already bonded Mrs. been much better to have concentrated my six-year-old daughter why the public Parks out of prison. He said, "It's time upon integrating the buses or the lunch invitation on television didn't include this stops; we ought to boycott the counters. One victory of this kind would her, and others like her. Dne of the most buses." I agreed and said, "Now." The have been symbolic, would have galva­ painful experiences I have ever faced next night we called a meeting of Negro nized support and boosted morale. But I was to see her tears when I told her that community leaders to discuss it, and on don't mean that our work in Albany Funtown was closed to colored children, Saturday and Sunday we appealed to the ended in failure. The Negro people for I realized that at that moment the Negro community, with leaflets and there straightened up their bent backs; first dark cloud of inferiority had floated from the pulpits, to boycott the buses you can't ride a man's back unless it's into her little mental sky, that at that on Monday. We had in mind a one-day bent. Also, thousands of Negroes regis­ moment her personality had begun to boycott, and we were banking on 60-per­ tered to vote who never had voted warp with that- first unconscious bitter­ cent success. But the boycott saw instan­ before, and because of the expanded ness toward white people. It was the first taneous 99-percent success. We were so Negro vote in the next election lor time that prejudice based upon skin col­ pleasantly surprised and impressed that governor of Georgia-which pitted a or had been explained to her. But it was we continued, and for the next 381 days moderate candidate against a rabid seg­ of paramount importance to me that she the boycott of Montgomery's buses by regationist-Georgia elected its first gov­ 1 not grow up bitter. So I told her that al­ Negroes was 99 YJ 0 successful. ernor who had pledged to respect and though many white people were against PLAYBOY: Were you sure you'd win? enforce the law impartially. And what her going to Funtown, there were many KING: There was one dark moment we learned from our mistakes in Albany others who did want colored children to when we doubted it. We had been strug­ helped our later campaigns in other go. It helped somewhat. Pleasantly, word gling to make the boycott a success cities to be more effective. We have came to me later that Funtown had when the city of Montgomery successful­ never since scattered our efforts in a gen­ quietly desegregated, so I took Yolanda. ly obtained an injunction from the eral attack on segregation, but have fo­ A number of white persons there asked, court to stop our car pool. I didn't cused upon specific, symbolic objectives. "Aren't. you Dr. King, and isn't this your know what to say to our people. They PLAYBOY: Can you recall any other daughter?" I said we were, and she heard had backed us up, and we had let them mistakes you've made in leading the them say how glad they were to see us down. It was a desolate moment. I saw, movement? there. all of us saw, that the court was leaning KING: Well, the most pervasive mistake PLAYBOY: As one who grew up in the against us. I remember telling a group of I have made was in believing that be­ economically comfortable, socially in­ those working closest with me to spread cause our cause was just, we could be sulated environment of a middle-income in the Negro community the message, sure that the white ministers of the home in Atlanta, can you recall when it "We must have the faith that things will South, once their Christian consciences was that you yourself first became pain­ work out somehow, that God will make were challenged, would rise to our aid. I fully and personally aware of racial prej­ a way for us when there seems no way." felt that white ministers would take our udice? It was about noontime, I remember, cause to the white power structures. I KING: Very clearly. When I was 14, I when Rex Thomas of the Associated ended up, of course, chastened and dis­ had traveled from Atlanta to Dublin, Press rushed over to where I was sitting illusioned. As our movement unfolded, Georgia, with a dear teacher of mine, and told me of the news fl ash that the ami cl:rect appeals were made to white ministers, most folded their hands--and optimism about help from the white think of how that explosion blew the some even took stands against us. church was shattered; and on too many face of Jesus Christ from a stained-glass PLAYBOY: Their stated reason for re­ occasions since, my hopes for the white window. It was symbolic of how sin and fusing to help was that it was not the church have been dashed. There are evil had blotted out the life of Christ. I proper role of the church to "intervene many signs that the judgment of God is can remember thinking that if men were in secular affairs." Do you disagree with upon the church as never before. Unless this bestial, was it all worth it? \Vas this view? the early sacrificial spirit is recaptured, I there any hope? Was there any way out? KING: Most emphatically. The essence am very much afraid that today's Chris­ PLAYBOY: Do you still feel this way? of the Epistles of Paul is that Chris­ tian church will lose its authenticity, for· KING: No, time has healed the wounds tians should rejoice at being deemed feit t-he loyalty of millions, and we will -and buoyed me with the inspiration of worthy to suffer for: what they believe. see the Christian church dismissed as a another moment which I shall never for­ The projection of a social gospel, in my social club with no meaning or effective­ get: when I saw with my own eyes over opinion, is the true witness of a Chris­ ness for our time, as a form without sub­ 3000 young Negro boys and girls, total­ tian life. This is the meaning of the true stance, as salt without savor. The real ly unarmed, leave Birmingham's 16th ekklesia-the inner, spiritual church. tragedy, though, is not Martin Luther Street Baptist Church to march to a The church once changed society. It was King's disillusionment with the church­ prayer meeting-ready to pit nothing then a thermostat of society. But today I for I am sustained by its spiritual bless­ but the power of their bodies and feel that too much of the church is mere­ ings as a minister of the gospel with a souls against Bull Connor's police dogs, ly a thermometer, which measures rather lifelong commitment; the tragedy is that clubs and fire hoses. When they re­ than molds popular opinion. in my travels, I meet young people of all fused Connor's bellowed order to turn PLAYBOY: Are you speaking of the races whose disenchantment with the back, he whirled and shouted to his men church in general-or the white church church has soured into outright disgust. to turn on the hoses. It was one of the in particular? PLAYBOY: Do you feel that the Negro most fantastic events of the Birmingham KING: The white church, I'm sorry to church has come any closer to "the pro­ story that these Negroes, many of them say. Its leadership has greatly disappoint­ jection of a social gospel" in its commit­ on their knees, stared, unafraid and un­ ed me. Let me h asten to say there are ment to the cause? moving, at Connor's men with the hose some outstanding exceptions. As one KING: I must say that when my South­ nozzles in their hands. Then, slowly the whose Christian roots go back through ern Christian Leadership Conference Negroes stood up and advanced, and three generations of ministers-my fa­ began its work in Birmingham, we en­ Connor's lilen fell back as though hyp­ ther, grandfather and great-grandfather countered numerous Negro church re­ notized, as the Negroes marched on past -I will remain true to the church as actions that had to be overcome. Negro to hold their prayer meeting. I saw long as I live. But the laxity of the white ministers were among other Negro there, I felt there, for the first time, the church collectively has caused me to leaders who felt they were being pulled pride and the power of nonviolence. weep tears of love. There cannot be into something that they had not helped Another time I will never forget was deep disappointment without deep love. to organize. This is almost always a one Saturday night, late, when my Time and again in my travels, as I have problem. Negro community unity was brother telephoned me in Atlanta from seen the outward beauty of white the first requisite if our goals were to be Birmingham-that city which some call churches, I have had to ask myself, realized. I talked with many groups, in­ "Bombingham"-which I had just left. "What kind of people worship there? cluding one group of 200 ministers, my He told me that a bomb had wrecked his Who is their God? Is their God the God theme to them being that a minister can­ home, and that another bomb, posi­ of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and is not preach the glories of heaven while tioned to exert its maximum force· upon their Savior the Savior who hung on the ignoring social conditions in his own the motel room in which I had been cross at Golgotha? Where were their community that cause men an earthly staying, had injured several people. l\fy voices when a black race took upon itself hell. I stressed that the Negro minister brother described the terror in the the cross of protest against man's injus­ had particular freedom and independ­ streets as Negroes, furious at the bomb­ tice to man? Where were their voices ence to provide strong, firm leadership, ings, fought whites. Then, . behind his when defiance and hatred were called and I asked how the Negro would ever voice, I heard a rising chorus of beauti­ for by white men who sat in these very gain freedom without his minister's ful singing: "We shall overcome." Tears churches?" guidance, support and inspiration. came into my eyes that at such a tragic As the Negro struggles against grave These ministers finally decided to en­ moment, my race still could sing .its hope injustice, most white churchmen offer trust our movement with their support, and faith. pious irrelevancies and sanctimonious and as a result, the role of the Negro PLAYBOY: We Shall Overcome has be­ trivialities. As you say, they claim that church today, by and large, is a glorious come the unofficial song and slogan of the gospel of Christ should have no example in the history of Christen­ the civil rights movement. Do you con­ concern with social issues. Yet white dom. For never in Christian history, sider such inspirational anthems impor­ churchgoers, who insist that they are within a Christian country, have Chris­ tant to morale? Christians, practice segregation as rigidly tian churches been on the receiving end KING: In a sense, songs are the soul of in the house of God as they do in movie­ of such naked brutality and violence as a movement. Consider, in World War houses. Too much of the white church is we are witnessing here in America to­ Two, Praise the Lord and Pass the Am­ timid and ineffectual, and some of it is day. Not since the days of the Christians munition, and in World War One, Over shrill in its defense of bigotry and prej­ in the catacombs has God's house, as a There and Tipperary, and during the udice. In most communities, the spirit of symbol, weathered such attack as the Civil War, Battle Hymn of the Repub­ status quo is endorsed by the churches. Negro churches. lic and john Brown's Body. A Ne­ i\ly personal disillusionment with the I shall never forget the grief and bit­ gro song anthology would include sor­ church began when I was thrust into the terness I felt on that terrible September row songs, shouts for joy, battle hymns, leadership of the bus protest in Mont­ morning when a bomb blew out the anthems. Since slavery, the Negro has gomery. I was confident that the white lives of those four little, innocent girls sung throughout his struggle in America. ministers, priests and rabbis of the South sitting in their Sunday-school class in the Steal Away and Go Down, 1\1.oses were would prove strong allies in our just 16th Street Baptist Church in Birming­ the songs of faith and inspiration cause. But some became open adversar­ ham. I think of how a woman cried out, which were sung on the plantations. ies, some cautiously shrank from the is­ crunching through broken glass, "My For the same reasons the slaves sang, sue, and others hid behind silence. My God, we're not even safe in church!" I Negroes today sing freedom songs, for we, too, are in bondage. We Montgomery during the bus boycott, has citizenship rights, and the total inte­ sing out our determination that "We been further developed throughout the gration of the Negro into American shall overcome, black and white togeth­ South over the past decade, until by to­ life; and fifth, to reduce the cultural er, we shalt overcome someday." I should day it has become instrumental in the lag through our citizenship training also mention a song parody that I en­ greatest mass-action crusade for freedom program. joyed very much which the Negroes sang that has occurred in America since the PLAYBOY: How does S. C. L. C. select the during our campaign in Albany, Geor­ Revolutionary War. The effectiveness of cities where nonviolent campaigns and gia. It goes: ''I'm comin', I'm comin'/ this weapon's ability to dramatize, in the demonstrations are to be staged? And my head ain't bendin' low /I'm world's eyes, an oppressed peoples' strug­ KING: The operational area of S. C. L. C. walkin' tall, I'm talkin' strong/I'm gle for justice is evident in the fact that is the entire South, where we have affili­ America's N ew Black Joe." of 1963's top ten news stories after the ated organizations in some 85 cities. Our PLAYBOY: Your detractors in the Ne­ assassination of President Kennedy and major campaigns have been conducted gro community often refer to you snide­ the events immediately connected with only in cities where a request for our ly as "De Lawd" and "Booker T. King." it, nine stories dealt with one aspect or help comes from one of these affiliate or­ What's your reaction to this sort of Un­ another of the Negro struggle. ganizations, and only when we feel that cle Tom label? PLAYBOY: Several of those stories dealt intolerable conditions in that communi­ KING: I hear some of those names, but with your own nonviolent campaigns ty might be ameliorated with our help. I my reaction to them is never emotional. against segregation in various Southern will give you an example. In Birming­ I don't think you can be in public life cities, where you and your followers ham, one of our affiliate organizations is without being called bad names. As Lin­ have been branded "rabble-rousers" and the Alabama Christian Movement for coln said, "If 1 answered all criticism, I'd "outside agitators." Do you feel you've Human Rights, which was organized by have time for nothing else." But with earned these labels? the Reverend Fred Shuttlesworth, a regard to both of the names you men­ KING: Wherever the early Christians most energetic and indomitable man. It tioned, I've always tried to be what I call appeared, spreading Christ's doctrine of was he who set out to end Birmingham's militantly nonviolent. 1 don't believe love, the resident power structure ac­ racism, challenging the terrorist reign of that anyone could seriously accuse me of cused them of being "disturbers of the Bull Connor. S. C. L. C. watched admir­ not being totally committed to the peace" and "outside agitators." But the ingly as the small Shuttlesworth-led or­ breakdown of segregation. small Christian band continued to teach ganization fought in the Birmingham PLAYBOY: What do you mean by "mili­ and exemplify love, convinced that they courts and with boycotts. Shuttlesworth tantly nonviolent"? were "a colony of heaven" on this earth was jailed several times, his home and KING: I mean to say that a strong man who were missioned to obey not man church were bombed, and still he did not must be militant as well as moderate. He but God. If those of us who employ non­ back down. His defiance of Birming­ must be a realist as well as an idealist. If violent direct action today are dismissed ham's racism inspired and encouraged I am to merit the trust invested in me by by our white brothers as "rabble-rousers" Negroes throughout the South. Then, some of my race, I must be both of these and "outside agitators," if they refuse to at a May 1962 board meeting of the things. This is why nonviolence is a support our nonviolent efforts and goals, S. C. L. C. in Chattanooga, the first dis­ powerful as well as a just weapon. If you we can be assured that the summer of cussions began that later led to our confront a man who has long been cruel­ 1965 will be no less long and hot than joining Shuttlesworth's organization m ly misusing yp u, and say, "Punish me, if the summer of 1964. a massive direct-action campaign to you will; I do not deserve it, but I will Our white brothers must be made to attack Birmingham's segregation. accept it, so that the world will know I understand that nonviolence is a weap­ PLAYBOY: One of the highlights of that am right and you are wrong," then you on fabricated of love. It is a sword that campaign was your celebrated "Letter wield a powerful and a just weapon. heals. Our nonviolent direct-action pro­ from a Birmingham Jail''-written dur­ This man, your oppressor, is automati­ gram has as its objective not the creation ing one of your jail terms for civil dis­ cally morally defeated, and if he has any of tensions, but the surfacing of tensions obedience-an eloquent reply to eight conscience, he is ashamed. Wherever i:his already present. We set out to precipi­ Protestant, Catholic and Jewish clergy­ weapon is used in a manner that stirs a tate a crisis situation that must open the men who had criticized your activities in community's, or a nation's, anguished door to negotiation. I am not afraid of Birmingham. Do you feel that subse­ conscience, then the pressure of public the words "crisis" and "tension." I deep­ quent events have justified the senti­ opinion becomes an ally in your just ly oppose violence, but constructive cri­ ments expressed in your letter? cause. sis and tension are necessary for growth. KING: I would say yes. Two or three Another of the major strengths of the Innate in all life, and all growth, is ten­ important and constructive things have nonviolent weapon is its strange power sion. Only in death is there an absence happened which can be at least partially to transform and transmute the individ­ of tension. To cure injustices, you must attnbuted to that letter. By now, nearly uals who subordinate themselves to its expose them before the light of human a million copies of the letter have been disciplines, investing them with a cause conscience and the bar of public opin­ widely circulated in churches of most of that is larger than themselves. They be­ ion, regardless of whatever tensions that the major denominations. It helped to come, for the first time, somebody, and exposure generates. Injustices to the Ne­ focus greater international attention they have, for the first time, the courage gro must be brought out into the open upon what was happening in Birming­ to be free. When the Negro finds the where they cannot be evaded. ham. And I am sure that without Bir­ courage to be free, he faces dogs and PLAYBOY: Is this the sole aim of your mingham, the march on Washington guns and clubs and fire hoses totally Southern Christian Leadership Confer­ wouldn't have been called-which in my unafraid, and the white men with those ence? mind was one of the most creative steps dogs, guns, clubs and fire hoses see that KING: We have five aims: first, to stimu­ the Negro struggle has taken. The march the Negro they have traditionally called late nonviolent, direct, mass action to on Washington spurred and galvanized "boy" has become a man. expose and remove the barriers of segre­ the consciences of millions. It gave the We should not forget that, although gation and discrimination; second, to American Negro a new national and in­ nonviolent direct action did not origi­ disseminate the creative philosophy and ternational stature. The press of the nate in America, it found a natural techniques of nonviolence through local world recorded the story as nearly a home where it has been a revered tradi­ and area workshops; third, to secure the quarter of a million Americans, white tion to rebel against injustice. This great right and unhampered use of the ballot and black, assembled in grandeur as a weapon, which we first tried out in for every citizen; fourth, to achieve full testimonial to the Negro's determination to achieve freedom in this generation. are being faced by Negroes who display they have the right to bargain with the It was also the image of Birmingham no fear. Negro for his freedom. This continued which, to a great extent, helped to bring PLAYBOY: It was shortly after your St. arrogant ladling out of pieces of the the Civil Rights Bill into being in 1963. Augustine campaign last summer, as you rights of citizenship has begun to gener­ Previously, President Kennedy had de­ mentioned, that the Civil Rights Bill ate a fury in the Negro. Even so, he is cided not to propose it that year, feeling was passed-outlawing many of the in­ not pressing for revenge, or for con­ that it would so arouse the South that justices against which you had been quest, or to gain spoils, or to ensla,·e, or it would meet a bottleneck. But Bir­ demonstrating. Throughout the South, even to marry the sisters of those who mingham, and subsequent developments, predictably, it was promptly anathema­ have injured him. What the Negro caused him to reorder his legislative tized as unconstitutional and excessive wants-and will not stop until he gets­ priorities. h:~ its concessions to Negro demands. is absolute and unqualified freedom and One of these decisive developments How do you feel about it? equality here in this land of his birth, was our last major campaign before the KING: I don't feel that the Civil Rights and not in Africa or in some imaginary enactment of the Civil Rights Act-in Act has gone far enough in some of its state. The Negro no longer will be toler­ St .. Augustine, Florida. We received a coverage. In the first place, it needs a ant of anything less than his due right plea for help from Dr. Robert Hayling, stronger voting section. You will never ;md heritage. He is pursuing only that the leader of the St. Augustine move­ have a true democracy until you can which he knows is honorably his. He ment. St. Augustine, America's oldest eliminate all restrictions. We need to do knows that he is right. city, and one of the most segregated away with restrictive literacy tests. I've But every Negro leader since the turn cities in America, was a stronghold of seen too much of native intelligence to of the century has been saying this in the Ku Klux Klan and the John Birch accept the validity of these tests as a ~ri­ one form or another. It is because we Society. Such things had happened as terion for voting qualifications. Our na­ haYe been so long and so conscientiously Klansmen abducting four Negroes and tion needs a universal method of voter ignored by the dominant white society beating them unconscious with clubs, registration-one man, one vote, literal­ that the situation has now reached such brass knuckles, ax handles and· pistol ly. Second, there is a pressing, urgent crisis proportions. Few white people, butts. Dr. Hayling's home had been shot need to give the attorney general the even today, will face the clear fact that up with buckshot, three Negro homes right to initiate Federal suits in any area the very future and destiny of this coun­ had been bombed and several Negro of civil rights denial. Third, we need a try are tied up in what answer will be night clubs shotgunned. A Negro's car strong and strongly enforced fair-hous­ given to the Negro. And that answer had been destroyed by fire because his ing section such as many states already must be gi,·e n soon. child was one of the six Negro children have. President Kennedy initiated the PLAYBOY: Relatively few dispute the just­ permitted to attend white schools. And present housing law, but it is not broad ness of the struggle to eradicate racial in­ the homes of two of the Negro children enough. Fourth, we need an extension justice, but many whites feel that the in the white schools had been burned of FEPC to grapple more effectively Negro should be more patient, th;tt only down. Many Negroes had been fired with the problems of poverty. Not only the passage of time-perhaps generations from jobs that some had worked on for are millions of Negroes caught in the -will bring about the sweeping 28 years because they were somehow clutches of poverty, but millions of poor changes he demands in traditional atti­ connected with the demonstrations. Po­ whites as well. And fifth, conclusive and tudes and customs. Do you think this is lice had beaten and arrested Negroes for effective measures must be taken im­ true? picketing, marching and singing free­ mediately at the Federal level to curb KING: No, I do not. I feel that the time dom songs. Many Negroes had served up the worsening reign of terror in the is always right to do what is right. to 90 days in jail for demonstrating South-which is aided and abetted, as Where progress for the Negro in Ameri­ against segregation, and four teenagers everyone knows, by state and local law­ ca is concerned, there is a tragic miscon­ had spent six months in jail for picket­ enforcement agencies. It's getting so that ception of time among whites. They ing. Then, on 'February seventh of last anybody can kill a Negro and get away seem to cherish a strange, irrational no­ year, Dr. Hay}ing's home was shot­ with it in the South, as long as they go tion that something in the ,·ery How of gunned a second time, with his pregnant through the motions of a jury ".rial. time will cure all ills. In truth, time it­ wife and two children barely escaping There is very little chance of conviction self is only neutral. Increasingly, 1 feel death; the family dog was killed while from lily-white Southern jurors. It must that time has been used destructively by standing behind the living-room door. be fixed so that in the case of interracial people of ill will much more than it has So S. C. L. C. decided to join in last murder, the Federal Government can been used constructively by those of year's celebration of St. Augustine's prosecute. good will. gala 400th birthday as America's oldest PLAYBOY: Your dissatisfaction with the If I were to select a timetable for the city-by converting it into a nonviolent Civil Rights Act reflects that of most equalization of human rights, it would battleground. This is just what we did. other Negro spokesmen. According to re­ be the intent of the "all deliberate PLAYBOY: But isn't it true, Dr. King, cent polls, however, many whites resent speed" specified in the historic 1954 Su­ that during this and other "nonviolent" this attitude, calling the Negro "ungrate­ preme Court decision. But what has demonstrations, violence has occurred­ ful" and "unrealistic" to press his de­ happened? A Supreme Court decision sometimes resulting in hundreds of casu­ mands for more. was met, and balked, with utter defi­ alties on both sides? KING: This is a litany to those of us in ance. Ten years later, in most areas KING: Yes, in part that is true. But what this field. "What more will the Negro of the South, less than one percent of is always overlooked is how few people, want?" "What will it take to make thest the Negro children ha,·e been inte­ in ratio to the numbers involved, have demonstrations end?" Well, I would likt grated in schools, and in · some of the been casualties. An army on maneuvers, tu reply with another rhetorical ques­ deepest South, not e\·en one tenth of against no enemy, suffers casualties, even tion: Why do white people seem to find one percent. Approximately 25 percent fatalities. A minimum of whites have it so difficult to understand that the Ne­ of employable Negro youth, for another been casualties in demonstrations solely example, are presently unemployed. because our teaching of nonviolence dis­ gro is sick and tired of having reluctant­ Though many would prefer not to, we ciplines our followers not to fight even if ly parceled out to him those rights and must face the fact that progress for the attacked. A minimum of Negroes are privileges which all others receive upon Negro--to which white "moderates" like casualties for two reasons: Their white birth or entry in America? I never cease to point in justifying gradualism-has oppressors know that the world watches to wonder at the amazing presumption their actions, and for the first time they of much of white society, assuming that been relatively insignificant, particularly in terms of the Negro masses. What little alternative but to go on into Mississippi. priests and ministers did do, often at the progress has been made-and that in­ PLAYBOY: Why? cost of their lives. And if I lived now in cludes the Civil Rights Act-has applied KING: Because I have a job to do. If I a Communist country where principles primarily to the middle-class Negro. were constantly worried about death, I dear to the Christian's faith are sup­ Among the masses, especially in the couldn't function. After a while, if your pressed, I know that I would openly Northern ghettos, the situation remains life is more or less constantly in peril, advocate defiance of that country's anti­ about the same, and for some it is worse. you come to a point where you accept religious laws--again, just as some Chris­ PLAYBOY: It would seem that much the possibility philosophically. I must tian priests and ministers are doing today could be done at the local, state and face the fact, as all others in positions of behind the.Iron Curtain. Right here in Federal levels to remedy these inequi­ leadership must do, that America today America today there are white ministers, ties. In your own contact with them, is an extremely sick nation, and that priests and rabbis who have shed blood have you found Government officials--in something could well happen to me at in the support of our struggle against a the North, if not in the South-to be any time. I feel, though, that my cause is web of human injustice, much of which generally sympathetic, understanding, so right, so moral, that if I should lose is supported by immoral man-made laws. and receptive to appeals for reform? my life, in some way it would aid the PLAYBOY: Segregation laws? KING: On the contrary, I have been dis­ cause. KING: Specifically, court mJunctions. mayed at the degree to which abysmal PLAYBOY: That statement exemplifies Though the rights of the First Amend­ ignorance seems to prevail among many the total dedication to the civil rights ment guarantee that any citizen or state, city and even Federal officials on movement for which you are so widely group of citizens may engage in peacea­ the whole question of racial justice and admired-but also denounced as an "ex­ ble assembly, the South has seized upon injustice. Particularly, I have found that tremist" by such segregationist spokes­ the device of invoking injunctions to these men seriously-and dangerously­ men as Alabama's Governor Wallace. block our direct-action civil rights dem­ underestimate the explosive mood of the Do you accept this identification? onstrations. \Vhen you get set to stage a Negro and the gravity of the crisis. Even KING: It disturbed me when I first heard nonviolent demonstration, the city sim­ among those whom I would consider to it. But when I began to consider the ply secures an injunction to cease and be both sympathetic and sincerely intel­ true meaning of the word, I decided that desist. Southern courts are well known lectually committed, there is a lamenta­ perhaps I would like to think of myself for "sitting on" this type of case; conceiv­ ble lack of understanding. But this white as an extremist-in the light of the ably a two- or three-year delay could be failure to comprehend the depth and di­ spirit which made Jesus an extremist incurred. At first we found this to be a mension of the· Negro problem is far for love. If it sounds as though I am highly effective subterfuge against us. from being peculiar to Government comparing myself to the Savior, let \Ve first experienced it in Montgomery officials. Apart from bigots and backlash­ me remind you that all who honor them­ when, during the bus boycott, our car ers, it seems to be a malady even among selves with the claim of being "Chris­ pool was outlawed by an injunction. An those whites who like to regard them­ tians" should compare themselves to injunction also destroyed the protest selves as "enlightened." I would especial­ Jesus. Thus I consider myself an extrem­ movement in Talladega, Alabama. An­ ly refer to those who counsel, "Wait!" ist for that brotherhood of man which other injunction outlawed the oldest t:iv­ and to those who say that they sympa­ Paul so nobly expressed: "There is nei­ il rights organization, the NAACP, from thize with our goals but cannot condone ther Jew nor Greek, there is neither the whole state of Alabama. Still another our methods of direct-action pursuit of bond nor free, there is neither male nor injunction thwarted our organization's those goals. I wonder at men who dare female: for ye are all one in Christ efforts in Albany, Georgia. Then in Bir­ to feel that they have some paternalistic Jesus." Love is the only force on earth mingham, we felt that we had to take a right to set the timetable for another that can be dispensed or received in an stand and disobey a court injunction man's liberation. Over the past several extreme manner, without any qualifica­ against demonstrations, knowing the years, I must s<;ty. I have been gravely dis­ tions, without any harm to the giver or consequences and being prepared to appointed with such white "moderates." to the receiver. meet them-or the unjust law would I am often inclined to think that they PLAYBOY: Perhaps. But the kind of ex­ break our movement. are more of a stumbling block to the Ne­ tremism for which you've been criticized We did not take this step hastily or gro's progress than the White Citizen's has to do not with love, but with your rashly. We gave the matter intense Counc::iler or the Ku Klux Klanner. advocacy of willful disobedience of what thought and prayer before deciding that PLAYBOY: Haven't both of these seg­ you consider to be "unjust laws." Do you the right thing was being done. And regationist societies been implicated in feel you have the right to pass judgment when we made our decision, I an­ connection with plots against your life? on and defy the law-nonviolently or nounced our plan to the press, making it KING: It's difficult to trace the author­ otherwise? clear that we were not anarchists advo­ ship of these death threats. I seldom go KING: Yes-morally, if not legally. For cating lawlessness, but that in good con­ through a day without one. Some are tel­ there are two kinds of laws: man's and science we could not comply with a ephoned anonymously to my office; oth­ God's. A man-made code that squares misuse of the judicial process in order to ers are sent-unsigned, of course­ with the moral law, or the law of God, is perpetuate injustice and segregation. through the mails. Drew Pearson wrote a just law. But a man-made code that is When our plan was made known, it not long ago about one group of un­ inharmonious with the moral law is an bewildered and immobilized our segre­ known affiliation that was committed to unjust law. And an unjust law, as St. Au­ gationist opponents. We felt that our assassinate not only me but also Chief gustine said, is no law at all. Thus a law decision had been morally as well as Justice Warren and President Johnson. that is unjust is morally null and void, tactically right-in keeping with God's And not long ago, when I was about to and must be defied until it is legally null law as well as with the spirit of our visit in Mississippi, I received some very and void as well. Let us not forget, in nonviolent direct-action program. urgent calls from Negro leaders in Mo­ the memories of 6,000,000 who died, that PLAYBOY: If it's morally right for sup­ bile, who had been told by a very relia­ everything Adolf Hitler did in Germany porters of civil rights to violate segrega­ ble source that a sort of guerrilla group was "legal," and that everything the tion laws which they consider unjust, led by a retired major in the area of Lu­ Freedom Fighters in Hungary did was why is it wrong for segregationists to re­ cyville, Mississippi, was plotting to take "illegal." In spite of that, I am sure that sist the enforcement of integration laws my life during the visit. I was strongly I would have aided and comforted my which they consider unjust? urged to cancel the trip, but when I Jewish brothers if I had Jived in Germany KING: Because segregation, as even the thought about it, I decided that I had no during Hitler's reign, as some Christian segregationists know in their hearts, is morally wrong and sinful. If it weren't, The Southern white man, discovering the Negro, especially in the slums and the white South would not be haunted the "nonmyth" Negro, exhibits all the ghettos where the riots occur-and to as it is by a deep sense of guilt for what passion of the new convert, seeing the talk instead of looting, and of the break­ it has done to the Negro-guilt for black man as a man among men for down of law and order. It is never circu­ patronizing him, degrading him, brutal­ the first time. The South, if it is to sur­ lated that some of the looters have been izing him, depersonalizing him, thingify­ vive economically, must make dramatic white people, similarly motivated by ing him; guilt for lying to itself. This is changes, and these must include the Ne­ their own poverty. In one riot in a the source of the schizophrenia that the gro. People of good will in the South, Northern city, aside from the Negroes South will suffer until it goes through who are the vast majority, have the chal­ and Puerto Ricans who were arrested, its crisis of conscience. lenge to be open and honest, and to there were also 158 white people-in­ PLAYBOY: Is this crisis imminent? turn a deaf ear to the shrill cries of the cluding mothers stealing food, children's KING: It may not come next week or irresponsible few on the lunatic fringe. I shoes and other necessity items. The next year, but it is certainly more immi­ think and pray they will. poor, white and black, were rebelling nent in the South than in the North. If PLAYBOY: Whom do you include among together against the establishment. the South is honest with itself, it may "the irresponsible few"? PLAYBOY: Whom do you mean by "the well outdistance the North in the im­ KING: I include those who preach rac­ establishment"? provement of race relations. ism and commit violence; and those KING: I mean the white leadership­ PLAYBOY: Why? who, in various cities where we have which I hold as responsible as anyone for KING: Well, the Northern white, hav­ sought to peacefully demonstrate, have the riots, for not removing the conditions ing had little actual contact with the Ne­ sought to goad Negroes into violence as that cause them. The deep frustra­ gro, is devoted to an abstract principle an excuse for violent mass reprisal. In tion, the seething desperation of the Ne­ of cordial interracial relations. The Birmingham, for example, on the day it gro today is a product of slum housing, North has long considered, in a theoreti­ was flashed about the world that a chronic poverty, woefully inadequate cal way, that it supported brotherhood "peace pact" had been signed between education and substandard schools. The and the equality of man, but the truth is the moderate whites and the Negroes, Negro is trapped in a long and desolate that deep prejudices and discriminations Birmingham's segregationist forces react­ corridor with no exit sign, caught in a exist in hidden and subtle and covert ed with fury, swearing vengeance against vicious socioeconomic vise. And he is os­ disguises. The South's prejudice and dis­ the white businessmen who had "be­ tracized as is no other minority group in crimination, on the other hand, has been trayed" them by negotiating with Ne­ America by the evil of oppressive and applied against the Negro in obvious, groes. On Saturday night, just outside of constricting prejudice based solely upon open, overt and glaring forms-which Birmingham, a Ku Klux Klan meeting his color. A righteous man has no alter­ make the problem easier to get at. The was held, and that same night, as I men­ native but to resist such an evil system. Southern white man has the advantage tioned earlier, a bomb ripped the home If he does not have the courage to resist of far more actual contact with Negroes of my brother, the Reverend A. D. nonviolently, then he runs the risk of a than the Northerner. A major problem King, and another bomb was planted violent emotional explosion. As much as is that this contact has been paternal­ where it would have killed or seriously I deplore violence, there is one evil that istic and poisoned by the myth of racial wounded anyone in the· motel room is worse than violence, and that's cow­ superiority. which I had been occupying. Both ardice. It is still my basic article of faith PLAYBOY: Many Southern whites, sup­ bombings had been timed just as Bir­ that social justice can be achieved and ported by the "research" of several mingham's bars closed on Saturday mid­ democracy advanced only to the degree Southern anthropologists, vow that night, as the streets filled with thousands that there is firm adherence to nonviolent white racial superiority-and Negro infe. of Negroes who were not trained in non­ action and resistance in the pursuit of so­ riority-are a biological fact. violence, and who had been drinking. cial justice. But America will be faced KING: You may remember that during Just as whoever planted the bombs had with the ever-present threat of violence, the rise of Nazi Germany, a rash of wanted to happen, fighting began, po­ rioting and senseless crime as long as books by respected, German scientists ap­ licemen were stoned by Negroes, cars Negroes by the hundreds of thousands peared, supporting the master-race theo­ were overturned and fires started. are packed into malodorous, rat-plagued ry. This utterly ignorant fallacy has PLAYBOY: Were none of your S, C. L. C. ghettos; as long as Negroes remain been so thoroughly refuted by the social workers involved? smothered by poverty in the midst of an scientists, as well as by medical science, KING: If they had been, there would affluent society; as long as Negroes are that any individual who goes on be­ have been no riot, for we believe that made to feel like exiles in their own land; lieving it is standing in an absolutely only just means may be used in seeking as long as Negroes continue to be de­ misguided and diminishing circle. The a just end. We believe that lasting gains humanized; as long as Negroes see their American Anthropological Association can be made-and they have been made freedom endlessly delayed and dimin­ has unanimously adopted a resolution -only by practicing what we preach: a ished by the head winds of tokenism and repudiating statements that Negroes are policy of nonviolent, peaceful protest. small handouts from the white power biologically, in innate mental ability or The riots, North and South, have in­ structure. No nation can suffer any in any other way inferior to whites. The volved mobs-not the disciplined, nonvi­ greater tragedy than to cause millions of collective weight and authority of world olent, direct-action demonstrators with its citizens to feel that they have no stake scientists are embodied in a Unesco whom I identify. We do not condone in their own society. report on races which flatly refutes the lawlessness, looting and violence com­ Understand that I am trying only to theory of innate superiority among any mitted by the racist or the reckless of explain the reasons for violence and the ethnic group. And as far as Negro any color. threat of violence. Let me say again. that "blood" is concerned, medical science I must say, however, that riots such as by no means and under no circumstance finds the same four blood types in all have occurred do achieve at least one do I condone outbreaks of looting and race groups. partially positive effect: They dramati­ lawlessness. I feel that every responsible When the Southern white finally ac­ cally focus national attention upon the Negro leader must point out, with all cepts this simple fact-as he eventually Negro's discontent. Unfortunately, they possible vigor, that anyone who perpe­ must-beautiful results will follow, for also give the white majority an excuse, trates and participates in a riot is im­ we will have come a long way toward a provocation, to look away from the moral as well as impractical-that the transforming his master-servant perspec­ cause of the riots-the poverty and use of immoral means will not achieve tive into a person-to-person perspective. the deprivation and the degradation of the moral · end of racial justice. PLAYBOY: Whom do you consider the there have been fewer riots in the South. ditions and unendurable situations. most responsible Negro leaders? The :reason for this is that the Negro in PLAYBOY: Is it destined to be a violent KING: Well, I would say that Roy Wil­ the South can see some visible, concrete revolution? kins of the NAACP has proved time and victories in civil rights. Last year, the po­ KING: God willing, no. But white Amer­ again to be a very articulate spokesman lice would have been called if he sat icans must be made to understand the for the rights of Negroes. He is a most down at a community lunch counter. basic motives underlying Negro dem­ able administrator and a dedicated or­ This year, if he chooses to sit at that onstrations. Many pent-up resentments ganization man wi1h personal resources counter, he is served. More riots have and latent frustrations are boiling inside that have helped the whole struggle. occurred in the North because the fellow the Negro, and he must release them. It Another outstanding man is Whitney in Harlem, to name one Northern ghet­ is not a threat but a fact of history that Young Jr. of the National Urban League, to, can't see any victories. He remains if an oppressed people's pent-up emo­ an extremely able social scientist. He has throttled, as he has always been, by tions are not nonviolently released, they developed a meaningful balance be­ vague, intangible economic and social will be violently released. So let the Ne­ tween militancy and moderation. James deprivations. Until the concerned power gro march. Let him make pilgrimages to Farmer of CORE is another courageous, structures begin to grapple creatively city hall. Let him go on freedom rides. dedicated and thoughtful civil rights with these fundamental inequities, it And above all, make an effort to under­ spokesman. I have always been im­ will be difficult for violence to be elimi­ stand why he must do this. For if his pressed by how he maintains a freshness nated. The longer our people see no frustration and despair are allowed to in his awareness of the meaning of the progress, or halting progress, the easier it continue piling up, millions of Negroes whole quest for freedom. And John will be for them to yield to the counsels will seek solace and security in black­ Lewis of SNCC symbolizes the kind of of hatred and demagoguery. nationalist ideologies. And this, inevit­ strong militancy, courage and creativity PLAYBOY: The literature of the John ably, would lead to a frightening racial that our youth have brought to the civil Birch Society, accusing you of just such nightmare. rights struggle. But I feel that the great­ counsels, has branded you "a conscious PLAYBOY: Among whites, the best-known est leader of these times that the Negro agent of the Communist conspiracy." and most feared of these militantly racist has produced is A. Philip Randolph, KING: As you know, they have sought Negro sects is the Black Muslims. What president of the Brotherhood of Sleep­ to link many people with communism, is your estimation of its power and in­ ing Car Porters, whose total integrity, including the Chief Justice of the Su­ fluence among the Negro masses? depth of dedication and caliber of states­ preme Court and a former President of KING: Except in a few metropolitan manship set an example for us all. the United States. So I'm in good com­ ghettos, my experience has been that few PLAYBOY: Many whites feel that last pany, at least. The Birchers thrive on Negroes have any interest at all in this summer's riots occurred because leader­ sneer and smear, on the dissemination of organization, much less give any alle­ ship is no longer being offered by the half-truths and outright lies. It would be giance to its pessimistic doctrines. The men you named. comfortable to dismiss them as the luna­ Black Muslims are a quasi-religious, so­ KING: The riots we h ave h ad are mi­ tic fringe-which, by and large, they are; ciopolitical movement that has appealed nute compared to what would h ave but some priests and ministers have also to some Negroes who formerly were happened without their effective and shown themselves to be among them. Christians. For the first time, the Negro restraining leadership. I am convinced They are a very dangerous group--and was presented with a choice of a religion that unless the nonviolent philosophy they could become even more dangerous other than Christianity. What this ap­ had emerged and taken hold among N e­ if the public doesn't reject the un-Ameri­ peal actually represented was an indict­ groes, North and South, by today the can travesty of patriotism that they ment of Christian failures to live up to streets of dozens of American communi­ espouse. Christianity's precepts; for there is noth­ ties would have flowed with blood. PLAYBOY: \.Vas there any basis in fact ing in Christianity, nor in the Bible, Hundreds of <;ities might now be mourn­ for the rumors, still circulating in some that justifies racial segregation. But ing countless dead, of both races, were it quarters, that last summer's riots were when the Negroes' genuine fighting spir­ not for the nonviolent influence which fomented and stage-directed by Commu­ it rose during 1963, the appeal of the has given political surg~ons the time and nist agitators? Muslims began to diminish. opportunity to boldly and safely excise KING: I'm getting sick and tired of peo­ PLAYBOY: One of the basic precepts of some aspects of the peril of violence that ple saying that this movement has been black nationalism has been the attempt faced this nation in the summers of 1963 infiltrated by Communists. There are as to engender a sense of communion be­ and 1964. The whole world has seen what many Communists in this freedom move­ tween the American Negro and his happened in communities such as Har­ ment as there are Eskimos in Florida. African "brother," a sense of identity be­ lem, Brooklyn, Rochester, Philadelphia, The FBI provided the best answer to tween the emergence of black Africa and Newark, St. Petersburg and Birmingham, this absurd rumor in its report to the the Negro's struggle for freedom in where this emergency operation was President after a special investigation America. Do you feel that this is a con­ either botched or not performed at all. which he had requested. It stated that structive effort? PLAYBOY: Still, doesn't the very fact the riots were not caused or directed by KING: Yes, I do, in many ways. There is that riots have occurred tend to indicate any such groups, although they did try a distinct, significant and inevitable that many .Negroes are no longer heed­ to capitalize upon and prolong the riots. correlation. The Negro across America, ing the counsels of nonviolence? All Negro leaders, including myself, looking at his television set, sees black KING: Not the majority, by any means. were most happy with the publication of statesmen voting in the United Nations But it is true that some Negroes sub­ these findings, for the public whisper­ on vital world issues, knowing that in scribe to a deep feeling that the tactic of ings had troubled us. We knew that it many of America's cities, he himself is nonviolence is not producing enough could prove vitally harmful to the Negro not yet permitted to place his ballot. concrete victories. We have seen, in our struggle if the riots had been catalyzed The Negro hears of black kings and· po­ experience, that nonviolence thrives best or manipulated by the Communists or tentates ruling in palaces, while he re­ in a climate of justice. Violence grows to some other extremist group. It would mains ghettoized in urban slums. It is the degree that injustice prevails; the h ave sown the seed of doubt in the pub­ only natural that Negroes would react to more injustice in a given community, lic's mind that the Negro revolution is a this extreme irony. Consciously or un­ the more violence, or potential violence, genuine revolution, born from the same consciously, the American Negro has smolders in that community. I can give womb that produces all massive social been caught up by the black Zeitgeist. you a clear example. If you will notice, upheavals-the womb of intolerable con- He feels a deepening sense of iden- tification with his black African broth­ tense, his disenchantment even more PLAYBOY: Along with the other civil ers, and with his brown and yellow abject. Thus, in purely practical as well rights leaders, you have often proposed brothers of Asia, South America and the as moral terms, the American Negro has a massive program of economic aid, Caribbean. With them he is moving with no rational alternative to nonviolence. financed by the Federal Government, to a sense of increasing urgency toward the PLAYBOY: You categorically reject vio­ improve the lot of the nation's 20,000,- promised land of racial justice. lence as a tactical technique for social 000 Negroes. Just one of the projects PLAYBOY: Do you feel that the African change. Can it not be argued, however, you've mentioned, however-the HAR­ nations, in turn, should involve them­ that violence, historically, has effected YOU-ACT program to provide jobs for selves more actively in American Negro massive and sometimes constructive so­ Negro youths-is expected to cost $141,- affairs? cial change in some countries? 000,000 over the next ten years, and that KING: I do indeed. The world is now so KING: I'd be the first to say that some includes only Harlem. A nationwide pro­ small in terms of geographic proximity historical victories have been won by vi­ gram such as you propose would un­ and mutual problems that no nation olence; the U. S. Revolution is certainly doubtedly run into the billions. should stand idly by and watch an­ one of the foremost. But the Negro KING: About 50 billion, actually-which other's plight. I think that in every rev:olution is seeking integration, not in­ is less than one year of our present possible instance Africans should use the dependence. Those fighting for inde­ defense spending. It is my belief that influence of their governments to make pendence have the purpose to drive out with the expenditure of this amount, it clear that the struggle of their broth­ the oppressors. But here in America, over a ten-year period, a genuine and ers in the U.S. is part of a world-wide we've got to live toget!ter. We've got to dramatic transformation could be struggle. In short, injustice anywhere is a find a way to reconcile ourselves to liv­ achieved in the conditions of Negro life threat to justice everywhere, for we are ing in community, one group with the in America. I am positive, moreover, tied together in a garment of mutuality. other. The struggle of the Negro in that the money spent would be more What happens in Johannesburg affects America, to be successful, must be waged than amply justified by the benefits that Birmingham, however indirectly. We are with resolute efforts, but efforts that are would accrue to the nation through a descendants of the Africans. Our heri­ kept strictly within the framework of our spectacular decline in school dropouts, tage is Africa. We should never seek to democratic society. This means reaching, family breakups, crime rates, illegiti­ break the ties, nor should the Africans. educating and moving large enough macy, swollen relief rolls, rioting and PLAYBOY: One of the most articulate groups of people of both races to stir the other social evils. champions of black Afro-American conscience of the nation. PLAYBOY: Do you think it's realistic to brotherhood has been Malcolm X, the PLAYBOY: How do you propose to go hope that the Government would con­ former Black Muslim leader who recent­ about it? sider an appropriation of such magni­ ly renounced his racist past and convert­ KING: Before we can make any prog­ tude other than for national defense? ed to orthodox Mohammedanism. What ress, we must avoid retrogression-by KING: I certainly do. This country has is your opinion of him and his career? doing everything in our power to avert the resources to solve any problem once KING: I met Malcolm X once in Wash­ further racial violence. To this end, that problem is accepted as national pol­ ington, but circumstances didn't enable there are three immediate steps that I icy. An example is aid to Appalachia, me to talk with him for more than a would recommend. Firstly, it is manda­ which has been made a policy of the minute. He is very articulate, as you say, tory that people of good will across Federal Government's mud1-touted war but I totally disagree with many of his America, particularly those who are in on poverty; one billion was proposed for political and philosophical views-at positions to wield influence and power, its relief-without making the slightest least insofar as I understand where he conduct honest, soul-searching analyses dent in the defense budget. Another ex­ now stands. I don't want to seem to and evaluations of the environmental ample is the fact that after World War sound self-righteous, or absolutist, or causes that spawn riots. All major indus­ Two, during the years when it became that I think I have the only truth, the trial and ghetto areas should establish policy to build and maintain the largest only way. Maybe he does have some of serious biracial discussions of community military machine the world has ever the answer. I don't know how he feels problems, and of ways to begin solving known, America also took upon itself, now, but I know that I have often them. Instead of ambulance service, through the Marshall Plan and other wished that he would talk less of vi­ municipal leaders need to provide pre­ measures, the financial relief and reha­ olence, because violence is not going to ventive medicine. Secondly, these com­ bilitation of millions of European peo­ solve our problem. And in his litany of munities should make serious efforts to ple. If America can afford to underwrite articulating the despair of the Negro provide work and training for unem­ its allies and ex-enemies, it can certainly without offering any positive, creative ployed youth, through job-and-training afford-and has a much greater obliga­ alternative, I feel that Malcolm has done programs such as the HARYOU-ACT tion, as I see it-to do at least as well by himself and our people a great disserv­ program in New York City. Thirdly, all its own no-less-needy countrymen. ice. Fiery, demagogic oratory in the cities concerned should make first-prior­ PLAYBOY: Do you feel it's fair to re­ black ghettos, urging Negroes to arm ity efforts to provide immediate quality quest a multibillion-dollar program of themselves and prepare to engage in vi­ education for Negro youth-instead of preferential treatment for the Negro, or olence, as he has done, can reap nothing conducting studies for the next five for any other minority group? but grief. years. Young boys and girls now in the KING: I do indeed. Can any fair-mind­ PLAYBOY: For them or for whites? ghettos must be enabled to feel that ed citizen deny that the Negro has been KING: For everyone, but mostly for them. they count, that somebody cares about deprived? Few people reflect that for Even the extremist leaders who preach them; they must be able to feel hope. two centuries the Negro was enslaved, revolution are invariably unwilling to And on a longer-range basis, the physical and robbed of any wages-potential ac­ lead what they know would certainly ghetto itself must be eliminated, because crued wealth which would have been the end in bloody, chaotic and total defeat; these are the environmental conditions legacy of his descendants. All of Ameri­ for in the event of a violent revo­ that germinate riots. It is both socially ca's wealth today could not adequately lution, we would be sorely outnum­ and morally suicidal to continue a pat­ compensate its Negroes for his centuries bered. And when it was all over, the tern of deploring effects while failing to of exploitation and humiliation. It is an Negro would face the same unchanged come to grips with the causes. Ultimate­ economic fact that a program such as I conditions, the same squalor and dep­ ly, law and order will be maintained propose would certainly cost far less rivation-the only difference being that only when justice and dignity are ac­ than any computation of two centuries his bitterness would be even more in- corded impartially to all. of unpaid wages plus accumulated inter- est. In any case, I do not intend that this they could form a grand alliance. To­ population, are reported to consume program of economic aid should apply gether, they could merge all people for over 40 percent of the Scotch whisky im­ only to the Negro; it should benefit the the good of all. ported into the U.S., and to spend over disadvantaged of all races. PLAYBOY: If Negroes are also granted $72,000,000 a year in jewelry stores. So Within common law, we have ample preferential treatment in housing, as when we come asking for civil rights do­ precedents for special compensatory pro­ you propose, how would you allay the nations, or help for the United Negro grams, which are regarded as settle­ alarm with which many white homeown­ College Fund, most Negroes are trying ments. American Indians are still being ers, fearing property devaluation, greet to make ends meet. paid for land in a settlement manner. Is the arrival of Negroes in hitherto all­ PLAYBOY: The widespread looting that not two centuries of labor, which helped white neighborhoods? took place during last summer's riots to build this country, as real a commodi­ KING: We must expunge from our so­ would seem to prove your point. Do you ty? Many other easily applicable prece­ ciety the myths and half-truths that en­ agree with those who feel that this loot­ dents are readily at hand: our child gender such groundless fears as these. In ing-much of which was directed against labor laws, social security, unemploy­ the first place, there is no truth to the Jewish-owned stores-was anti-Semitic in ment compensation, man-power retrain­ myth that Negroes depreciate property. motivation? ing programs. And you will remember The fact is that most Negroes are kept KING: No, I do not believe that the that America adopted a policy of special out of residential neighborhoods so long riots could in any way be considered treatment for her millions of Yeterans that when one of us is finally sold a expressions of anti-Semitism. It's true, as after the War-a program which cost far home, it's already depreciated. In the sec­ I was particularly pained to learn, that a more than a policy of preferential treat­ ond place, we must dispel the negative large percentage of the looted stores ment to rehabilitate the traditionally and harmful atmosphere that has been were owned by our Jewish friends, but I disadvantaged Negro would cost today. created by avaricious and unprincipled do not feel that anti-Semitism was in­ The closest analogy is the GI Bill of realtors who engage in ".blockbusting." volved. A high percentage of the mer­ Rights. Negro rehabilitation in America If we had in America really serious chants serving most Negro communities would require approximately the same efforts to break down discrimination in simply happen to be Jewish. How could breadth of program-which would not housing, and at the same time a concert­ there be anti-Semitism among Negroes place an undue burden on our economy. ed program of Government aid to when our Jewish friends have demon­ Just as was the case with the returning improve housing for Negroes, I think strated their commitment to the princi­ soldier, such a bill for the disadvantaged that many white people would be sur­ ple of tolerance and brotherhood not and impoYerished could enable them to prised at how many Negroes would only in the form of sizable contribu­ buy homes without cash, at lower and choose to live among themselves, exactly tions, but in many other tangible ways, easier repayment terms. They could ne­ as Poles and Jews and other ethnic and often at great personal sacrifice? gotiate loans from banks to launch busi­ groups do. Can we ever express our appreciation to nesses. They could receive, as did ex-Gis, PLAYBOY: The B'nai B'rith, a prominent the rabbis who chose to give moral wit­ special points to place them ahead in social-action organization which un­ ness with us in St. Augustine during our competition for civil service jobs. Under dertakes on behalf of the Jewish peo­ recent protest against segregation in that certain circumstances of physical disabil­ ple many of the activities that you ask unhappy city? Need I remind anyone of ity, medical care and long-term financial the Government to perform for Negroes, the awful beating suffered by Rabbi Ar­ grants could be made available. And to­ is generously financed by Jewish chari­ thur Lelyveld of Cleveland when he gether with these rights, a favorable ties and private donations. All of the joined the civil rights workers there in social climate could be created to en­ Negro civil rights groups, on the other Hattiesburg, Mississippi? And who can courage the preferential employment of hand-including your own-are perenni­ ever forget the sacrifice of two Jewish the disadvantaged, as was the case for so ally in financial straits and must rely lives, Andrew Goodman and Michael many years with veterans. During those heavily on white philanthropy in order Schwerner, in the swamps of Mississippi? years, it might- be noted, there was no to remain solvent. Why do they receive It would be impossible to record the appreciable resentment of the preferen­ so little support from Negroes? contribution that the Jewish people tial treatment being giYen to the special KING: We have to face and live with have made toward the Negro's struggle group. America was only -compensating the fact that the Negro has not devel­ for freedom-it has been so great. her veterans for their time lost from oped a sense of stewardship. Slavery PLAYBOY: In conspicuous contrast, ac­ school or from business. was so divisive and brutal, so molded cording to a recent poll conducted by PLAYBOY: If a nationwide program of to break up unity, that we never Ebony, only one Negro in ten has ever preferential employment for Negroes developed a sense oL oneness, as in Ju­ participated physically in any form of were to be adopted, how wou:d you pro­ daism. Starting with the individual fami­ social protest. vVhy? pose to assuage the resentment of whites ly unit, the Jewish people are closely KING: It is not always sheer numbers who already feel that their jobs are knit into what is, in effect, one big fami­ that are the measure of public support. being jeopardized by the influx of Ne­ ly. But with the Negro, slavery separated As I see it, every Negro who does partic­ groes resulting from desegregation? families from families, and the pattern ipate represents the sympathy and the KING: 'Ve must develop a Federal pro­ of disunity that we see among Negroes moral backing of thousands of others. gram of puhlic works, retraining and today derives directly from this cruel Let us never forget how one photo­ jobs for all-so that none, white or black, fact of history. It is also a cruel fact that graph, of those Birmingham policemen will have cause to feel threatened. At the the Negro, generally speaking, has not with th eir knees on that Negro woman present time, thousands of jobs a week developed a responsible sense of finan­ on the ground, touched something emo­ are disappearing in the wake of automa­ cial values. The best economists say that tionally deep in most Negroes in Ameri­ tion and other production efficiency your automobile shouldn't cost more ca, no matter who they were. In city after techniques. Black and white, we will all than half of your annual income, but we city, where S.C. L. C. has helped to be harmed unless something grand and see many Negroes earning $7000 a year achieve sweeping social changes, it has imaginative is done. The unemployed, paying $5000 for a car. The home, it is been not only because of the quality of poverty-stricken white man must be said, should not cost more than twice the its members' dedication and discipline, made to realize that he is in the very annual income, but we see many Ne­ but because of the moral support of same boat with the Negro. Together, groes earning, say, $8000 a year living in many Negroes who never took an active they could exert massive pressure on the a $30,000 home. Negroes, who amount part. It's significant, I think, that during Government to get jobs for all. Together, to about II percent of the America each of our city struggles, the usual aver- age of crimes committed by Negroes has gagements and civil rights commitments ly distressed by his defeat in the Presi­ dropped to almost nothing. throughout the country is a punishing dential race. But it is true, undeniably, that there one-often 20 hours a day, seven days KING: Until that defeat, Goldwater was are many Negroes who will never fight a week, according to reports. How much the most dangerous man in America. He for freedom-yet who will be eager time do you get to spend at home? talked soft and nice, but he gave aid and enough to accept it when it comes. And KING: Very little, indeed. I've averaged comfort to the most vicious racists there are millions of Negroes who have not more than two days a week at home and the most extreme rightists in Ameri­ never known anything but oppression, here in Atlanta over the past year-or ca. He gave respectability to views total­ who are so devoid of pride and self­ since Birmingham, actually. I'm away ly alien to the democratic process. Had respect that they have resigned them­ two and three weeks at a time, mostly he won, he would have led us down a selves to segregation. Other Negroes, working in commumues across the fantastic path that would have totally comfortable and complacent, consider South. WhereYer I am, I try to be in a destroyed America as we know it. that they are above the struggle of the pulpit as many Sundays as possible. But PLAYBOY: Until his withdrawal from masses. And still others seek personal eYery day when I'm at home, I break the race following Goldwater's nomina­ profit from segregation. from the office for dinner and try to tion, Alabama's Governor Wallace was PLAYBOY: Many Southern whites have spend a few hours with the children be­ another candidate for the Presidency. accused you of being among those who fore I return to the office for some night What's your opinion of his qualifications exploit the race problem for private work. And on Tuesdays when I'm not for that office? gain. You are widely believed through­ out of town, I don't go to the office. I KING: Governor \Vallace is a demagog out the South, in fact, to have amassed a keep this for my quiet day of reading with a capital D. He symbolizes in this vast personal fortune in the course of and silence and meditation, and an en­ country many of the evils that were alive your civil rights activities. tire evening with Mrs. King and the in Hitler's Germany. He is a merchant KING: Me wealthy? This is so utterly children. of racism, peddling hate under the guise fallacious and erroneous that I often PLAYBOY: If you could have a week's of States' rights. He wants to turn bao:;k wonder where it got started. For the uninterrupted rest. with no commit­ the clock, for his own personal aggran­ sixth straight year since I have been ments whatever, how would you spend dizement, and he will do literally any­ S.C. L. C.'s president, I have rejected our it? thing to accomplish this. He represents board's insistent recommendation that I KING: It's difficult to imagine such a the misuse, the corruption, the destruc- accept some salary beyond the one dollar thing, but if I had the luxury of an en­ ' tion of leadership. I am not sure that he a year which I receive, which entitles me tire week, I would spend it meditating believes all the poison that he preaches, to participate in our employees' group and reading, refreshing myself spiritual­ but he is artful enough to o:;onvince others insurance plan. I have rejected also our ly and intellectually. I have a deep nos­ that he does. Instead of guiding people board's offer of financial gifts as a meas­ talgia for the periods in the past that I to new peaks of reasonableness, he in­ ure and expression of appreciation. My was able to devote in this manner. tensifies misunderstanding, deepens sus­ only salary is from my church, $4000 a Amidst the struggle, amidst the frustra­ picion and prejudice. He is perhaps the year, plus $2000 more a year for what is tions, amidst the endless work, I often most dangerous racist in America today. known as "pastoral care." To earn a reflect that I am forever giving-never PLAYBOY: One of the most controver­ grand total of about $.10,000 a year, I pausing to take in. I feel urgently the sial issues of the past year, apart from keep about $4000 to $5000 a year for my­ need for even an hour of time to get civil rights, was the question of school self from the honorariums that I receive away, to withdraw, to refuel. I need prayer, which has been ruled unlawful from various speaking engagements. more time to think through what is by the Supreme Court. Governor Wal­ About 90 percent of my speaking is for being done, to take time out from the lace, among others, has denounced the S.C. L. C., and it brings into our treasury mechanics of the movement, to reflect decision. How do you feel about it? something around $200,000 a year. Addi­ on the meaning of the movement. KING: I endorse it. I think it was cor­ tionally, I get a fairly sizable but fluc­ PLAYBOY: If you were marooned on rect. Contrary to what many have said, it tuating income in the form of royalties the proverbial desert island, and could sought to outlaw neither prayer nor be­ from my writings. But all of this, too, I have with you only one book-apart lief in God. In a pluralistic society such give to my church, or to my alma mater, from the Bible-what would it be? as ours, who is to determine what prayer Morehouse College, here in Atlanta. KING: That's tough. Let me think about shall be spoken, and by whom? Legally, I believe as sincerely as I believe any­ it-one book, not the Bible. Well, constitutionally or otherwise, the state thing that the struggle for freedom in I think I would have to pick Plato's certainly has no such right. I am strongly which S. C. L. C. is engaged is not one Republic. I feel that it brings together opposed to the efforts that have been that should reward any participant with more of the insights of history than any made to nullify the decision. They have individual wealth and gain. I think I'd other book. There is not a creative idea been motivated, I think, by little more rise up in my grave if I died leaving two extant that is not discussed, in some way, than the wish to embarrass the Supreme or three hundred thousand dollars. But in this work. Whatever realm of theolo­ Court. When I saw Brother Wallace people just don't seem to believe that gy or philosophy is one's interest-and I going up to Washington to testify this is the way I feel about it. If I have am deeply interested in both-some­ against the decision at the Congressional any weaknesses, they are not in the area where along the way, in this book, you hearings, it only strengthened my con­ of coveting wealth. My wife knows this will find the matter explored. viction that the decision was right. well; in fact, she feels that I overdo it. PLAYBOY: If you could send someone­ PLAYBOY: Governor Wallace has inti­ But the Internal Revenue people, they anyone-to that desert island in your mated that President Johnson, in cham­ stay on me; they feel sure that one day stead, who would it be? pioning the cause of civil rights only they are going to find a fortune stashed KING: That's another tough one. Let since he became Vice-President, may be in a mattress. To give you some idea of me see, I guess I wouldn't mind seeing guilty of "insincerity." my reputed affluence, just last week I Mr. Goldwater dispatched to a desert is­ KING: How President Johnson may or came in from a trip and learned that a land. I hope they'd feed him and every­ may not have felt about or voted on civ­ television program had announced I was thing, of course. I am nonviolent, you il rights during his years in Congress is going to purchase an expensive home in know. Politically, though, he's already less relevant, at this point, than what he an all-white neighborhood here in At­ on a desert island, so it may be unneces­ has said and done about it during his lanta. It was news to me! sary to send him there. tenure· as President of the United States. PLAYBOY: Your schedule of speaking en- PLAYBOY: We take it you weren't over- In my opinion, he has done a good job up to now. He is an extremely keen po­ the world. I like to think that the award mitted to visit, and I was in a nightmare litical man, and he has demonstrated his recognizes symbolically the gallantry, the of despair. The very future of our move­ wisdom and his commitment in forth­ courage and the amazing discipline of ment hung in the balance, depending rightly coming to grips. with the prob­ the Negro in America, for these things upon capricious turns of events over lem. He does not tire of reminding the are to his eternal credit. Though we which I could have no control there, in­ nation of the moral issues involved. My have had riots, the bloodshed that we communicado, in an utterly dark dun­ impression is that he will remain a would have known without the disci­ geon. This was about ten days after our strong President for civil rights. pline of nonviolence would have been Birmingham demonstrations began. PLAYBOY: Late in 1963, you wrote, "As truly frightening. I know that many Over 400 of our followers had gone to I look toward 1964, one fact is unmistak­ whites feel the civil rights movement is jail; some had been bailed out, but we ably clear: The thrust of the Negro to­ getting out of hand; this may reassure had ·used up all of our money for bail, ward full emancipation will increase them. It may let them see that basically and about 300 remained in jail, and I rather than decrease." As last summer's this is a disciplined struggle, let them ap­ felt personally responsible. It was then riots testified, these words were unhappi­ preciate the meaning of our struggle, let that President Kennedy telephoned my ly prophetic. Do you foresee more vi­ them see that a great struggle for human wife, Coretta. After that, my jail condi­ olence in the year ahead? freedom can occur within the framework tions were relaxed, and the following KING: To the degree that the Negro is of a democratic society. Sunday afternoon-it was Easter Sunday not thwarted in his thrust forward, I be­ PLAYBOY: Do you feel that this goal -two S.C.L.C. attorneys were permitted lieve that one can predict less violence. I will be achieved within your lifetime? to visit me. The next day, word came to am not saying that there will be no dem­ KING: I confess that I do not believe me from New York that Harry Belafonte onstrations. There assuredly will, for the this day is around the corner. The con­ had raised $50,000 that was available im­ Negro in America has not made one civ­ cept of supremacy is so imbedded in the mediately for bail bonds, and if more il rights gain without tense legal. and ex­ white society that it will take many years was needed, he would raise that. I can­ tralegal pressure. If the Constitution for color to cease to be a judgmental fac­ not express what I felt, but I knew at were today applied equally and impar­ tor. But it is certainly my hope and that moment that God's presence had tially to all of America's citizens, in ev­ dream. Indeed, it is the keystone of my never left me, that He had been with me ery section of the country, in every court faith in the future that we will someday there in solitary. and code of law, there would be no need achieve a thoroughly integrated society. I subject myself to self-purification for any group of citizens to seek extra­ I believe that before the turn of the cen­ and to endless self-analysis; I question legal redress. tury, if trends continue to move and de­ and soul-search constantly into myself to Our task has been a difficult one, and velop as presently, we will have moved a be as certain as I can that -I am fulfilling will continue to be, for privileged long, long way toward such a society. the true meaning of my work, that I am groups, historically, have not volun­ PLAYBOY: Do you intend to dedicate maintaining my sense of purpose, that I teered to give up their privileges. As the rest of your life, then, to the Negro am holding fast to my ideals, that I am Reinhold Niebuhr has written, individu­ cause? guiding my people in the right direc­ als may see the moral light and voluntar­ KING: If need be, yes. But I dream of tion. But whatever my doubts, however ily abandon their unjust posture, but the day when the demands presently cast heavy the burden, I feel that I must ac­ groups tend to be more immoral, and upon me will be greatly diminished. I cept the task of helping to make this na­ more intransigent, than individuals. Our would say that in the next five years, tion and this world a better place to live nonviolent direct-action program, there­ though, I can't hape for much letup-ei­ in-for all men, black and white alike. fore-which has proved its strength and ther in the South or in the North. After I never will forget a moment in Bir­ effectiveness in more than a thousand that time, it is my hope that things will mingham when a white policeman ac­ American cities where some baptism of taper off a bit. costed a little Negro girl, seven or eight fire has taken place-will continue to PLAYBOY: If they do, what are your years old, who was walking in a demon­ dramatize and demonstrate against local plans? stration with her mother. "What do you KING: want?" the ·policeman asked her gruffly, injustices to the Negro until the last of Well, at one time I dreamed of pastoring for a few years, and then of and the little girl looked him straight those who impose those injustices are going to a university to teach theology. in the eye and answered, "Fee-dom." forced to negotiate; until, finally, the But I gave that up when I became deep­ She couldn't even pronounce it, but she Negro ·wins the protections of the Con­ ly involved in the civil rights struggle. knew.lt was beautiful! Many times when stitution that have been denied to him; Perhaps, in five years or so, if the de­ I have been in sorely trying situations, until society, at long last, is stricken mands on me have lightened, I will have the memory of that little one has come gloriously and incurably color-blind. the chance to make that dream come into my mind, and has buoyed me. PLAYBOY: In well-earned recognition of true. .Similarly, not long ago, I toured in your dedication to and leadership of PLAYBOY: In the meanwhile, you are eight communities of the state of Missis­ the struggle to achieve these goals, you now the universally acknowledged lead­ sippi. And I have carried with me ever became, in October of last year, the er of the American civil rights move­ since a visual image of the penniless and youngest man ever to receive the Nobel ment, and chief spokesman for the the unlettered, and of the expressions on Peace Prize. What was your reaction to nation's 20,000,000 Negroes. Are there their faces--of deep and courageous de­ the news? ever moments when you feel awed by termination to cas t off the imprint of the KING: It made me feel very humble in­ this burden of responsibility, or inade­ past and become free people. I welcome deed. But I would like to think that the quate to its demands? the opportunity to be a part of this great award is not a personal tribute, but a KING: One cannot be in my position, drama, for it is a drama that will deter­ tribute to the entire freedom movement, looked to by some for guidance, without mine America's destiny. If the problem and to the gallant people of both races being constantly reminded of the awe­ is not solved, America will be on the who surround me in the drive for civil someness of its responsibility. I live with road to its self-destruction. But if it is rights which will make the American one deep concern: Am I making the solved, America will just as surely be on dream a reality. I think that this interna­ right decisions? Sometimes I am uncer­ the high road to the fulfillment of the tionally known award will call even tain, and I must look to God for guid­ founding fathers' dream, when they wrote: "We hold these truths to be self­ more attention to our struggle, gain ance. There was one morning I recall, even greater sympathy and understand­ when I was in the Birmingham jail, in evident ..•" ing for our cause, from people all over solitary, with not even my lawyers per-