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Education Committee EDUCATION COMMITTEE Wednesday 1 October 2003 (Morning) Session 2 £5.00 Parliamentary copyright. Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body 2003. Applications for reproduction should be made in writing to the Licensing Division, Her Majesty’s Stationery Office, St Clements House, 2-16 Colegate, Norwich NR3 1BQ Fax 01603 723000, which is administering the copyright on behalf of the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body. Produced and published in Scotland on behalf of the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body by The Stationery Office Ltd. Her Majesty’s Stationery Office is independent of and separate from the company now trading as The Stationery Office Ltd, which is responsible for printing and publishing Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body publications. CONTENTS Wednesday 1 October 2003 Col. SUBORDINATE LEGISLATION ............................................................................................................................. 103 Education (School Meals) (Scotland) Regulations 2003 (SSI 2003/350).................................................... 103 SCHOOL TRANSPORT GUIDELINES ..................................................................................................................... 104 PROPOSED EDUCATION (ADDITIONAL SUPPORT FOR LEARNING) (SCOTLAND) BILL ............................................. 115 ADVISER ........................................................................................................................................................... 118 BUDGET PROCESS 2004-05 .............................................................................................................................. 119 SCHOOL DISCIPLINE ......................................................................................................................................... 138 EDUCATION COMMITTEE 5th Meeting 2003, Session 2 CONVENER *Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD) DEPUTY CONVENER *Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con) COMMITTEE MEMBERS *Ms Wendy Alexander (Paisley North) (Lab) *Rhona Brankin (Midlothian) (Lab) *Ms Rosemary Byrne (South of Scotland) (SSP) *Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP) *Mr Adam Ingram (South of Scotland) (SNP) *Mr Kenneth Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab) *Dr Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab) COMMITTEE SUBSTITUTES Brian Adam (Aberdeen North) (SNP) Mr Richard Baker (North East Scotland) (Lab) Rosie Kane (Glasgow) (SSP) David Mundell (South of Scotland) (Con) Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD) *attended THE FOLLOWING GAVE EVIDENCE: Basil Haddad (Scottish Executive Education Department) Peter Peacock (Minister for Education and Young People) Philip Rycroft (Scottish Executive Education Department) Ann Scott (Scottish Executive Education Department) Ewan Swaffield (Scottish Executive Development Department) CLERK TO THE COMMITTEE Martin Verity SENIOR ASSISTANT CLERK Peter McGrath ASSISTANT CLERK Ian Cowan LOCATION Committee Room 3 103 1 OCTOBER 2003 104 Scottish Parliament School Transport Guidelines Education Committee 10:21 Wednesday 1 October 2003 The Convener: The next item relates to the (Morning) school transport guidelines and is a hangover from the previous committee. [THE CONVENER opened the meeting at 10:19] Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con): I advise the committee that I have been asked by the Presiding Officer to serve on the Subordinate Legislation panel for the selection of the children’s commissioner. I have been advised by the clerks that there is no conflict of interests, but I thought Education (School Meals) (Scotland) that the committee should be aware of the fact and Regulations 2003 (SSI 2003/350) I wished to put it on the record. The Convener (Robert Brown): Good morning Rhona Brankin (Midlothian) (Lab): I, too, will and welcome to the fifth meeting of the Education be sitting on that panel. Committee. I remind members that we are in The Convener: I think that, as the convener of public session and ask them to switch off their the committee, I will be on it as well. Are there any mobile phones and all bleeping instruments of one other confessions to be made on the matter? As sort and another. Lord James says, the declaration is not necessary The first item on the agenda is consideration of but it makes the matter public. the Education (School Meals) (Scotland) Rhona Brankin: I should perhaps also put on Regulations 2003. The item follows a debate in record the fact that Graham Donaldson, the senior Parliament on the instrument and is about chief inspector for Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of implementation. We were due to have an Education, is my brother-in-law. I will give him a Executive official in attendance, but the lady in really hard time when he comes here. question is not very well this morning, so we do not have an official present. The instrument is The Convener: Thank you for that. subject to the negative procedure, so we will have Let us turn to the school transport guidelines, as to take positive steps if anyone formally objects to I was trying to do before those slight diversions. it. Does any member have any issues to raise on The Scottish Executive has issued an amended the regulations? guidance paper and we have three officials with Members: No. us—they are out in full force today. The posse of officials includes Ann Scott, Ann Whatcott and The Convener: The regulations are designed to Ewan Swaffield. It will not be necessary for you to make changes as a result of other changes that make an opening statement unless there is were made at Westminster to bring things into line anything that you are desperately keen to say to with regard to tax credits of various sorts for free us. However, we would like to ask you one or two school meals. Is the committee agreed that the questions. regulations should proceed and that we are not going to invoke any procedure to try to stop them? Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): I am sure that the officials are aware of the two petitions on Members indicated agreement. school transport that were submitted during the previous session of Parliament. Our predecessor committee wrote to the Executive, asking it to produce new guidelines. I notice that, in paragraph 20 of the guidelines, you acknowledge the need for councils to be more flexible in taking into consideration increases in the volume of traffic and in ensuring the provision of sufficient pavements, footpaths and other safety measures. Are there any cost implications to that? Will the Executive provide more support to enable local authorities to be more flexible in addressing personal safety issues? 105 1 OCTOBER 2003 106 Ann Scott (Scottish Executive Education concerns be established or should local authorities Department): In the Executive’s view, it is for the assess each transport route as a matter of local authorities to decide how much money they routine—annually, for example—to take account of assign to school transport issues. I do not think changing circumstances? The same could be said that the possibility of more money for more in relation to supervision on bus routes and the flexibility was raised with us. extent to which circumstances change over time after incidents. Do local authority processes Fiona Hyslop: The guidelines are welcome in incorporate a way of doing that systematically? that they make some movement towards recognising the need for more flexibility. Volume of Ann Scott: I cannot answer questions about traffic is an issue; in the past, many rural areas local authority processes. might not have had the volumes of traffic that they Mr Ingram: Is there a role for the Executive to have now. We know that there has been a big lay down such a system for local authorities? increase in the volume of traffic, which has expenditure implications. We cannot put a value Ann Scott: Our approach has been to on safety—children are either safe or unsafe. Do encourage local authorities to be flexible in you think that the guidelines have cost implications interpreting what they consider to be the major for local authorities? issues, rather than to try to prescribe what they should do. The Education Department suggested, Ann Scott: If local authorities feel that there are when it wrote to the Education Committee’s implications, they will let us know. I cannot offer predecessor committee about safety last year, that any advice or guidance on whether further funding trying to circumscribe the factors that local will be available. authorities could take into account might narrow Fiona Hyslop: I will give you a practical their interpretation of such matters. I do not know example from my area. In the Lothians, up to whether either of my transport colleagues wants to 15,000 houses will be built in the near future and add anything on that. in certain areas—in Livingston, for example— The Convener: Adam Ingram asked about major new build happens on a regular basis. That further guidance. Am I right in thinking that there is means that there are safety issues in getting to a duty to provide transport under the 2 and 3-mile school. Although the problems might not be limits, but a power to provide it in addition to that if permanent, the guidelines might have to address a local authority sees fit? safety issues to do with major traffic that are arising here and now. In such a situation, do you Ann Scott: There is a duty to provide school envisage that local authorities will be a bit more transport. The 2 and 3-mile stipulations relate to flexible on their strict miles guidelines by indicating attendance at school and the distance beyond that
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