Vol. 584 Tuesday, No. 5 4 May 2004

DI´OSPO´ IREACHTAI´ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

DA´ IL E´ IREANN

TUAIRISC OIFIGIU´ IL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised)

Tuesday, 4 May 2004.

Ceisteanna—Questions Taoiseach …………………………………1141 Minister for Transport Priority Questions ……………………………1157 Other Questions ……………………………1168 Adjournment Debate Matters ……………………………1174 Leaders’ Questions ………………………………1175 Requests to move Adjournment of Da´il under Standing Order 31 ………………1185 Order of Business ………………………………1187 Ministerial Rota for Parliamentary Questions: Motion …………………1195 Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004: Order for Report Stage ……………………………1196 Report Stage ………………………………1201 Messages from Select Committees …………………………1224 Private Members’ Business Hospital Waiting Lists: Motion …………………………1224 Adjournment Debate Schools Refurbishment ……………………………1255 Hospital Accommodation……………………………1258 Co´ rais Uisce agus Se´arachais …………………………1260 Questions: Written Answers ……………………………1265 1141 1142

DA´ IL E´ IREANN 7. Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in asked the Taoiseach the action he proposes to take on foot of the ———— report of the sub-committee on the Barron report of the Oireachtas Committee on Justice, De´ Ma´irt, 4 Bealtaine 2004. Equality, Defence and Women’s Rights; and if he Tuesday, 4 May 2004. will make a statement on the matter. [11373/04] 8. Mr. Gregory asked the Taoiseach his ———— response to the report of the sub-committee of Chuaigh an Ceann Comhairle i gceannas ar the Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Equality, 2.30 p.m. Defence and Women’s Rights on the Barron report; and if he will make a statement on the ———— matter. [12823/04] The Taoiseach: I propose to take Questions Paidir. Nos. 1 to 8, inclusive, together. Prayer. I understand Mr. Justice Barron will report next, at the beginning of June, on the Dublin ———— bombings of 1972 and 1973, together with the Clones, Belturbet and Pettigo bombings of 28 Ceisteanna — Questions. December 1972 and four other bombing incidents that took place before May 1974, as well as the ———— murder of Brid Carr in November 1971 and the murders of Oliver Boyce and Brid Porter. Commissions of Inquiry. Following that report, he will report on the 1. Mr. Rabbitte asked the Taoiseach when he case of Seamus Ludlow. He will then report on expects to receive the report of Mr. Justice other cases including the Dundalk bombing of Barron dealing with the Dundalk and Belturbet 1975 and in the context of that report, he will bombings and the murder of a person (details report on a number of other bombings that took supplied); the procedure that will be used to deal place after May 1974 including the Castleblaney with the report which is submitted; and if he will bombing. I also understand Mr. Justice Barron make a statement on the matter. [5710/04] has concluded his work on substantial portions of these reports but some contacts are still 2. Mr. Kenny asked the Taoiseach when he outstanding. expects to receive a further report from the It would be the intention that the report, would Barron commission of inquiry in respect of the be considered by the Oireachtas Joint Committee Dundalk and Belturbet bombings; and if he will on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women’s make a statement on the matter. [6574/04] Rights and they would be published. I would like 3. Mr. Sargent asked the Taoiseach when he to thank the Oireachtas Joint Committee on expects to receive a further report from Justice Justice, Equality, Defence and Women’s Rights Barron in respect of the Dundalk and Belturbet for its report and its comprehensive consideration bombings; and if he will make a statement on the of the Barron report into the Dublin and matter. [7573/04] Monaghan bombings of 1974. The sub-committee 4. Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in asked the Taoiseach dealing with the report had a very difficult task if he has received the reports of Justice Barron and the members of the sub-committee carried on the bombings of Dublin in December 1972 and out their work diligently and with great January 1973, the Belturbet bombing of 1972, the sensitivity. This was very important work dealing bomb at Dublin Airport in 1975, the Dundalk with the events that caused the highest number bombing of 1975, the Castleblayney bombing of of fatalities on a single day during the conflict in 1976 and the murder of Seamus Ludlow in Northern Ireland and left so many people 1976. [7947/04] suffering and traumatised. The committee presented its report to the 5. Mr. J. Higgins asked the Taoiseach when he Oireachtas and before coming to any decision on expects to receive a further report on the the recommendations contained in the Dundalk and Belturbet bombings from the committee’s report, the Government would wish Barron commission of inquiry; and if he will to consider the views of the Oireachtas on the make a statement on the matter. [9104/04] report’s recommendations. 6. Mr. Rabbitte asked the Taoiseach the Government’s views on the recommendations of Mr. Rabbitte: In an earlier reply the Taoiseach the sub-committee of the Oireachtas Committee indicated the second Barron report would be on Justice, Defence and Women’s Rights on the available early in 2004. As I am competing with Barron report; the action the Government some noise here, I did not quite hear if the intends to take to ensure that the Taoiseach gave a date for this. How does the recommendations are implemented; and if he will Taoiseach propose handling the second Barron make a statement on the matter. [10774/04] report? Does he intend it to be addressed in the 1143 Ceisteanna — 4 May 2004. Questions 1144

[Mr. Rabbitte.] files. I have no difficulty with that. Equally, the same fashion as the report on the Dublin and sub-committee stated that as part of the Monaghan bombings? investigation process, if the House so decides, a judge could examine these aspects again. That is The Taoiseach: The reply states that work is a matter which the Government will discuss. well advanced on the second report and some It will be necessary to have further discussions contacts remain to be made. While I do not have about those aspects of the matter which involve a date, I assume it is not too far in the future. I Northern Ireland and an inquiry and understand he has most of the drafting done and investigation there. The merits of that will be he just has some outstanding contacts to make. considered. While the idea is that an examination That will cover a number of the cases. It will like that carried out by Mr. Justice Cory should cover the two bombings in Dublin 1972 and 1973. take place, its feasibility will have to be It will also cover the Clones, Belturbet and considered. I raised the matter initially with the Pettigo bombings in 1972. It will also cover the Northern Ireland authorities through Secretary of other bombing incidents that took place before State, Paul Murphy. He has already written to say May 1974, the murder of Brid Carr in November the authorities have no further files, reports or 1971 as well as the murders of Oliver Boyce and data and cannot bring anything more to the table Brid Porter. That is the report which is nearly on this issue. We have a formal letter stating that ready. is the position. He has a separate report on the Seamus I raised this with Prime Minister Blair on Ludlow case. The Deputy will recall that the Sunday in the context that after the debate in the House later asked that this case be investigated. House and the Government’s consideration, we There has been a considerable delay about that will return to the matter. I informed the Prime matter because the family was not satisfied Minister of the recommendation of the initially. That report will be prepared. In the committee that these matters should be context of that report, he will also cover the post- investigated in the United Kingdom or Northern May 1974 issues, which would include the Ireland or, presumably, both. I have not been Dundalk bombing of 1975 and a number of other informed of an official British Government bombings that took place after the 1974 position, but I have made it clear to the Prime bombings, including the Castleblaney bombing. Minister that we will come back to the matter. That is some considerable time away. I presume we are talking about later in the year if not the Mr. Kenny: Following the publication of the end of the year before we get that report. last report, Mr. Justice Barron’s attendance at the We will deal with them in the same way. We sub-committee appears to have been helpful in will give them to the Oireachtas Joint Committee the search for the truth behind the atrocities. Can on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women’s the Taoiseach confirm or does he have any Rights. information to the effect that Mr. Justice Barron will make himself available to the sub-committee Mr. Rabbitte: What is the Taoiseach’s response in respect of any forthcoming report on these to the recommendations of the Oireachtas Joint matters? It transpired that a number of key Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and personnel were not contacted or interviewed by Women’s Rights on the first Barron report? I ask the commission in the context of the preparation in particular about the recommendation that a of Mr. Justice Barron’s report into the Dublin figure like Judge Cory would carry out an initial and Monaghan bombings. Can we assume that inquiry. Has the Taoiseach raised this matter with will not happen again in respect of any future the British authorities? Did he raise it with the report by Mr. Justice Barron? Prime Minister, Mr. Blair, over the past weekend? If he did, how does he assess the The Taoiseach: Whether Mr. Justice Barron response of the British authorities given the will make himself available is a matter for his pivotal role they would have to play in consideration. As Deputy Kenny said, he has implementing the recommendations of the sub- been quite helpful in coming forward to the sub- committee on the Barron report? committee, answering questions and elaborating as much as he possibly can. I am sure he will do The Taoiseach: In the first instance, the that again. Everyone who looks at these issues Government has not considered the report will say there are other matters which should be formally. We have stated we will await the examined. If this moves to another stage, that Oireachtas debate on this issue. It must be point can be made again. Mr. Justice Barron’s debated in both the Da´il and Seanad. In the view was that he covered all the people who were report of the sub-committee, the work of which I brought to his attention and the issues he thought commended, it is stated that once the committees were relevant. If a report like Mr. Justice Cory’s of investigation legislation is passed through the is to be produced, those will merit further Houses, the sub-committee will be in a position examination. to consider the aspects of the matter covered within our jurisdiction. Those are the issues Mr. Sargent: The Taoiseach referred earlier to involving the Garda and the so-called missing the issue of missing files from the Department of 1145 Ceisteanna — 4 May 2004. Questions 1146

Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Is he aware of in 1975 in which Hugh Watters and Jack Rooney the concerns of the Justice for the Forgotten died and the Castleblayney bombing of 1976 group which has questioned the efficacy of which took the life of Patrick Mone and the multiple inquiries on selected aspects of the murder of Seamus Ludlow are being addressed? bombings? There has been talk of holding what Did the Taoiseach indicate that some would be appear to be compartmentalised inquiries. Is the investigated later? Will we again see a staggered Taoiseach of the view that there must be a single return from Mr. Justice Barron? effective, efficient inquiry in which all matters can Recalling that Mr. Justice Barron included in be brought together and dealt with as they an attachment to his first report on the Dublin- interact? Monaghan bombings a report on the murder of In February this year, which is some time back, John Francis Green, is further action being I put a question to the Taoiseach about the considered on that report? We have received and remembrance fund established in February 2003. have proceeded to address Mr. Justice Barron’s At that time the Taoiseach mentioned there was report on the Dublin-Monaghan bombings but \9 million available and it appeared there would what of the report on John Francis Green? What, be early disbursement of that money. Given that in the Taoiseach’s view, is the current position of at that time the Taoiseach stated work was almost that report? Will further attention be drawn to it? finished and it was expected the commission What of Mr. Justice Barron’s report on each of would shortly be in a position to invite the other cases instanced? Where, in the applications, can he indicate what progress has Taoiseach’s view, will all that lead? been made since February? The sub-committee on the Barron inquiry called upon the Government to establish an The Taoiseach: I do not have an up-to-date investigation into the key missing departmental position on that matter but I can get one for the and Garda documents regarding the Dublin- Deputy. As I understand from replies to cases I Monaghan bombings. Has that investigation been referred to the commission, work is ongoing. I established? If not, when will it be established will obtain a note for the Deputy in that regard. and what form will it take? Will its establishment On the other issue raised by the Deputy, it will require legislation or a motion before this House? be a matter for the House following debate and the Government’s consideration in terms of the The Taoiseach: The Deputy raised three issues. way forward. It is the sub-committee which I outlined, in reply to Deputy Rabbitte, the divides the issues and it compartmentalised them position regarding the first report. It must first be into internal issues and stated the committee of debated in the Da´il and Seanad and then by the investigation should examine the Garda Government in terms of recommendations and investigation and the issue of missing processes for moving on. That includes the full documentation. The sub-committee feels such substance of the first report. matters come within our jurisdiction and should His second report deals with events which be handled by us. That appears a sensible occurred before 17 May 1974. It covers the suggestion if, ultimately, it is agreed. The sub- Dublin bombings of 1972 and 1973, the Clones, committee also stated it considers a public inquiry Belturbet and Pettigo bombings of 28 December in Northern Ireland and/or Great Britain is 1972, four other bombing incidents which took required and represents the best opportunity of place before May 1974 and the murders of Brid success. It then states as reasons for that Carr in November 1971 and of Oliver Boyce and recommendation, that any information, witnesses Breege Porter. They are all dealt with in one or issues would have arisen in Northern Ireland report. The drafting of that report is well or Great Britain. I am merely stating the advanced. Some contacts are continuing in which distinction drawn by the sub-committee. Mr. Justice Barron is involved and to which I am Obviously if a Cory-type investigation picks up not privy. He will report on that. on such matters, it will use Mr. Justice Barron’s Mr. Justice Barron will then report on the case report as its basis. I believe the difficulties will of Se´amus Ludlow. He will report on the arise in a Northern Ireland context but the best Dundalk bombings of 1975 and will look at a way to handle it will be a matter for future number of other bombings which took place after consideration. May 1974, including the Castleblayney bombing. Mr. Justice Barron was asked to do these reports Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: I may not have picked at a much later date. I do not know when this up clearly on the Taoiseach’s first response to the third report will be made but I presume it will be questions tabled. Will he confirm in terms of Mr. a considerable time from now. Justice Barron’s ongoing investigations, that the matters relating to the 1972-1973 Dublin Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: What about the bombings in which George Bradshaw, Thomas investigation into the missing file? Duffy and Thomas Douglas were killed; the Belturbet bombing in 1972 which killed two The Taoiseach: That recommendation was teenagers, Geraldine O’Reilly and Patrick made after the debate in this House and it goes Stanley; the bombing at Dublin Airport in 1975 back to Government. If that recommendation is in which John Hayes died; the Dundalk bombing adopted, the report recommends that the matter 1147 Ceisteanna — 4 May 2004. Questions 1148

[The Taoiseach.] how best to do that. I am committed to doing that be taken up by a committee of investigation. We in so far as I can. must await the examination of the report in the House and by the Government. Mr. Gregory: Given the stated commitment by the Prime Minister, Mr. Blair, to fight against Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: When will that terrorism in Madrid and elsewhere, did he not happen? jump at the opportunity to assure the Taoiseach that he would co-operate fully with an inquiry The Taoiseach: I hope it will happen shortly. into terrorism on his doorstep?

Mr. Gregory: Has the Taoiseach had contact The Taoiseach: As stated, the response from with the Justice for the Forgotten group, the Secretary of State, Mr. Paul Murphy, is that representing the relatives, since the publication of Mr. Justice Barron has been given all the the majority report of the sub-committee of the information the British Government has. I do not Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence think the British Government has considered yet and Women’s Rights into the Dublin and the recommendation in the report by Mr. Justice Monaghan bombings? I am sure the Taoiseach Barron. A good reason for that is that the has studied the sub-committee’s report. Is he Government has not yet done that. However, the committed to holding a further inquiry into the British Government is aware of it and knows the Dublin and Monaghan bombings? Did the contents of the report. Taoiseach receive a response from the Prime Minister, Mr. Blair, when he mentioned the issue Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: We are now within a to him last weekend? fortnight of the 30th anniversary of the Dublin Does the Taoiseach agree with the statement and Monaghan bombings on 17 May 1974. While issued by the Justice for the Forgotten group the focus on Mr. Justice Barron’s inquiry is following the publication of the sub-committee correct, I want to revisit my earlier question on a report, that the next inquiry — and the group is further report presented by Mr. Justice Barron on convinced that their must be a further inquiry — the murder of Mr. John Francis Green and the must be effectively constituted to bring finality to expected reports on the pre-1974 incidents which this issue? Does he agree with the Justice for the the Taoiseach outlined and the later attention to Forgotten group that a firm timetable for action all those from the Dublin Airport bombing of is required and that the Government should 1975 up to the murder of Mr. Se´amus Ludlow in immediately engage with the families in agreeing 1976. What will be done in regard to each of these the structure and elements of a properly incidents? Let us hope that the report on the constituted international human rights inquiry to murder of Mr. John Francis Green has not been bring finality to this issue? parked. What does the Taoiseach envisage will be done on each of the reports that Mr. Justice The Taoiseach: Yes, is the answer to Deputy Barron is addressing and will address in the Gregory’s first question. I keep in regular touch future? Will specific steps be taken arising from with individuals from the Justice for the these reports as they all reflect an important Forgotten group. I also have formal meetings aspect of the story of collusion in the events of with the group. this jurisdiction during the 30 year period we have Like Deputy Gregory and all Members of the lived through? House, I would like to see a full and complete end of this matter. We have agreed a process for The Taoiseach: I answered that question when that. The report must be debated in the Da´il and I stated the report will be debated by both Seanad and then considered by the Government. Houses of the Oireachtas before it goes to We must then decide how to move forward, Government. That process is set out in the based on the recommendations of the report. I do findings of the committee. The other reports not have difficulty with any of the should be processed in the same way. Ultimately, recommendations but we must go through the we will have to consider how best to bring the formal process. matter to finality, as Deputy Gregory stated. In We have received a conclusive reply from the my view this is as good as any other way, because Secretary of State that the British Government no alternative is laid down. That covers the issues has no further information or data. I raised the in our jurisdiction, however, I do not know at this matter again with the Prime Minister on Sunday stage if there will be a public tribunal of inquiry last. We must await the ultimate response of the in Northern Ireland or Great Britain. That will British Government to the recommendations of have to be processed with the authorities. the report. The members of the British Government are aware of the report and I have Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: The Mr. John Francis highlighted it to them. Green case was not referred to the committee. In the future we will face the difficulty of how best to reach finality in this matter. We must go The Taoiseach: Is that issue dealt with in a through the process outlined in the report and see separate part of the report? 1149 Ceisteanna — 4 May 2004. Questions 1150

Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: It is a separate report, inquiry will not get anywhere if it is held in this but is an attachment to the first report on the jurisdiction. It has no problem dealing with Dublin-Monaghan bombings. Garda matters and so on in this jurisdiction. Based on legal advice, the committee believes The Taoiseach: I will bring attention to that, if that if the inquiry is held down here, co-operation it is not part of the process. My understanding is will not be forthcoming in so far as these people that the full report will be debated in this House are still alive and known. The committee spelt and in the Seanad and will then be considered by this out clearly. This is the point we must pursue Government. I assume all of it, including that with the British Government. part, will be discussed. The other reports must be dealt with in the same way, particularly in regard to 17 May. On Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: On all the cases. reading Mr. Justice Barron’s report, it is obvious that all the involvement and activities relate to The Taoiseach: That is as I understand it. Northern Ireland.

Mr. Sargent: The Taoiseach stated that the Freedom of Information. holding of an inquiry either in Northern Ireland or Britain would not be without problems. Does 9. Mr. Kenny asked the Taoiseach the number he agree there is a need to press further for the of freedom of information requests received by holding of a full public inquiry in this jurisdiction? his Department during February 2004; the way in Does he not accept the view of the relatives that which this figure compares with the same month it would be extremely onerous on them to have in 2003; the fees paid to his Department; and if he an inquiry held across the water and to expect will make a statement on the matter. [7583/04] people to go back and forward? Will he use the 10. Mr. Sargent asked the Taoiseach the provisions of strand 3 of the Good Friday number of freedom of information requests Agreement to ensure it is held in this jurisdiction received by his Department for the first three and that it is fully open to both Governments to months of 2004; the number acceded to by his have an input into it? Will he use his persuasive Department; the way these figures compare with powers to ensure the British co-operate with a the figures in 2003; the fees paid to his full public inquiry in this jurisdiction? Department; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [8597/04] An Ceann Comhairle: Before the Taoiseach The Taoiseach: I propose to take Questions replies, I will take a final supplementary question Nos. 9 and 10 together. 3 o’clock from Deputy Rabbitte. There were 11 freedom of information requests received in my Department for the first three Mr. Rabbitte: Will the Taoiseach comment months of this year as compared with 80 requests specifically on the recommendation in respect of received for the same period last year. All the possible reference of a case to the European requests for the first three months of this year Court of Human Rights? Has the Government have been acceded to. Eight freedom of given separate consideration to the initiation of information requests were received during such a case? How does he propose to proceed February 2004 compared with 29 for the same in the House in respect of the sub-committee’s period last year. report? Does he intend to proceed by way of A total of \435 in application fees has been resolution from Government to set out the paid to my Department since the introduction of parameters of the debate on the report? the fee charge in July 2003. All requests received in my Department are processed in accordance The Taoiseach: On the debate in the House, it with both the 1997 Act and the 2003 Act, and is a matter on which we must agree. There needs their implementation is kept under constant to be a debate which presumably will be based on review. the committee’s report either to support or amend its recommendations. There was an Mr. Kenny: In the past five months of 2003, agreement that the matter would be debated there were 21 freedom of information requests prior to bringing it to Government for final received in the Department of the Taoiseach. consideration and action on it. This should take That compared with 61 requests received from place as early as possible. We will try to finalise August to December 2002, which represents a net in the House the committees of investigation reduction of approximately 66%. The legislation. It is recommended that the report Information Commissioner stated that she has should be put before that committee. concerns about the decrease in the number of On Deputy Sargent’s question, the sub- requests and, if the decline continues, it will have committee drew the distinction in this regard. I serious implications for the Freedom of am not drawing a distinction. The sub- Information Act. committee’s view is that because the likely Given that there was a 66% reduction in witnesses who might be able to assist in respect requests to his Department, does the Taoiseach of any evidence that might or might not exist are feel the expression of concern by the Information based in Northern Ireland and the UK, the Commissioner impacts on his Department? Does 1151 Ceisteanna — 4 May 2004. Questions 1152

[Mr. Kenny.] figure in my Department is \400 for almost a he feel the regulations and conditions of change year. introduced by the Government have strangled the Freedom of Information Act? Does he Mr. Rabbitte: Has the Government made any propose to ease the regulations or restore the assessment of the impact of the legislative flexibility which existed heretofore? amendments made to the original Act? What is the Taoiseach’s impression of commercial An Ceann Comhairle: That question is more enterprises or professionals who were said to be appropriate to the Minister for Finance. using the Act to assimilate and accumulate information which was commercially The Taoiseach: As the Deputy knows, the advantageous to them in the cheapest possible numbers were in decline. The areas of the Act way? Is that practice continuing or has it fallen with which we thought there might be difficulties, off? namely, sections 19 and 20, have not presented any. As can be seen from the total figure of \435 An Ceann Comhairle: The question refers which I gave, it cannot have had much effect on specifically to the Department of the Taoiseach. the personal applications. As the Deputy knows, there is no cost for cases or appeals in which The Taoiseach: I can answer for my own people seek personal information. Therefore, Department because it is easy to do so. The there is no change. Furthermore, no certificates answer is “yes”. Companies have stopped using have been issued under section 19, which we the Act even though the costs are low. Due to the debated in the House, in respect of exempt practice being highlighted so much in the debate records of Government meetings. No certificates and in various discussions, it is not being used by have been issued under section 20 by my commercial interests. Some companies were Department and I do not think any have been using it as a service to gather the information but issued by other Departments. However, that is a that practice has ceased. matter for the Department of Finance. It is apparent from the figures that the main change is Constitutional Amendments. that the Act is being used less as a scoping 11. Mr. Sargent asked the Taoiseach if method. referenda are being planned for 2004; if so, the nature of those referenda and the timescale Mr. Sargent: The Information Commissioner involved; and if he will make a statement on the has been highly critical of the 2003 changes. Has matter. [8593/04] the Taoiseach met Ms O’Reilly on this issue and ´ when does he expect her report? I understand she 12. Caoimhghı´nOCaola´in asked the Taoiseach has promised a review of the amended Act in the referenda planned by the Government for the June. Is it now time to re-examine the charges remainder of its term of office; and if he will which have been made? One individual spent make a statement on the matter. [10498/04] more than \3,000 trying to extract information 13. Mr. Kenny asked the Taoiseach his plans which was not for personal gain. Does the for constitutional referenda during 2004; and if he Taoiseach not agree that a refund might be in will make a statement on the matter. [10540/04] order if — as is the case in this instance — the person in question is found to be operating in the 14. Mr. Rabbitte asked the Taoiseach the public interest without any agenda, either from a referenda the Government is planning to hold or journalistic or any other point of view? It is too is considering holding before the end of 2004; and much to ask a person to pay \3,000 to get a right if he will make a statement on the matter. to information. Is this not more like a pay-per- [10704/04] view service rather than a right to information 15. Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach if he has service? proposals to amend the provisions of the Constitution in respect of the composition and An Ceann Comhairle: This question relates powers of Seanad E´ ireann. [11624/04] specifically to the Department of the Taoiseach and the Act itself is the responsibility of the 16. Mr. Rabbitte asked the Taoiseach if he has Minister for Finance. received a copy of the report of the All-Party Committee on the Constitution dealing with The Taoiseach: That is the point. Any meetings property rights; the action he intends to take as a will be between the Information Commissioner result of the report; and if he will make a and the Department of Finance. statement on the matter. [11742/04] We based the Act on the experience in other The Taoiseach: I propose to take Questions countries and when one compares the charges in Nos. 11 to 16, inclusive, together. those other countries against those here, they are The constitutional amendment concerning the still very low. Admittedly, it is a great deal if entitlements to Irish citizenship of children of someone spends \3,000. I do not know the non-national parents will be held on 11 June circumstances of that case but even though there 2004. The Government has no further proposals is an enormous burden of information, the entire at present to hold any other referenda in 2004. 1153 Ceisteanna — 4 May 2004. Questions 1154

The position will continue to be held under bypassed an Oireachtas committee and moved review in the light of developments including the ahead to a referendum without consultation? outcome of the examination by the Government of the All-Party Oireachtas Committee on the The Taoiseach: The matter of legislation on the Constitution’s ninth progress report on private property issue is being discussed by a number of property, which was published on 7 April, the Departments. I note what the report states, outcome of the examination of the report although I have not read all the documents on published on 28 April 2004 by the Committee on the property issue. The National Economic and Procedures and Privileges sub-committee on Social Council report on housing is also due out reform of the Seanad, and the outcome of the shortly. That will be important and should be Intergovernmental Conference on the draft read along with the report of the All-Party constitutional treaty which commenced in Rome Committee on the Constitution. I also note that on 4 October 2003. the committee’s report states several times that the issue is not the price of land but the price of An Ceann Comhairle: If the House is agreeable housing. To be frank, I do not believe that, I will take two questions from Deputies Sargent although it is a finding from our constitutional and O´ Caola´in, a reply from the Taoiseach and committee. It is extraordinary. I have read the then two questions from Deputies Kenny and case study the committee offers to support that Rabbitte with a final reply from the Taoiseach. Is statement, but that does not match with what I that agreed? Agreed. live with and see every day. Maybe the committee members know much more than me. As I said to Mr. Sargent: Has the Taoiseach looked again Deputy Rabbitte when we discussed this at the ill-judged decision to have the citizenship previously, if this problem can be dealt with referendum on the same day as the local and through legislation, then we should examine that European elections in light of the amount of option closely and move on legislation. advice that has been given on this? Does he now I remember the arguments, the cases and the accept that there is not going to be a need for a briefs I read extensively about Part 5. These referendum on the price of property, as he said matters are being discussed in a number of before, given the all-party committee’s report? Departments. In recent years I have read a What legislative response will the Taoiseach give considerable amount on these issues. The report in the light of that decision? states that, perhaps, the Kenny report was over- conservative. Many examinations of the Kenny Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: On 17 February I report have been carried out during the past 30 asked the Taoiseach in the House if it was years, all of which state that the report is far too intended to hold a referendum or referenda radical. It is a totally different interpretation of it. during 2004. In his reply he said the Government I make those points because I have read this “has no proposals at present to hold a subject over many years. referendum to change the Constitution”. On 14 January, more than a month before that, the Mr. Sargent: Will there be legislation? Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government notified the Department of The Taoiseach: I am not sure if that will solve Finance that there were strong indications that a the problem, but perhaps legislation is the way to proceed and then we will see what happens. further ballot paper would be required for polling ´ on 11 June and that additional e-voting machines On the issue raised by Deputy O Caola´in, had been procured. many of these issues are subject to discussion before a decision is finally taken. The rule is that Can the Taoiseach explain why that one cannot prejudice Government decisions and information would have been in the Departments one has to avoid making public statements or of the Environment, Heritage and Local commenting on policy proposals that are not Government and Finance more than a month brought to Government or are under before he replied to my question of 17 February? consideration by the Government. That is the He made no reference to this information nor rule of the Cabinet handbook. admission or indication of such consideration, let alone of a decision. Was it not disingenuous at Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: It can spend public best of the Taoiseach not to have referred to that money in buying additional voting machines. information which must have been available to him? An Ceann Comhairle: Sorry, Deputy O´ Does the Taoiseach not accept that, in light of Caola´in, I want to call Deputies Kenny and the continual requests of the All-Party Commit- Rabbitte. tee on the Constitution for comprehensive con- sultation and legislative scrutiny of all consti- The Taoiseach: The voting machines will be tutional referenda proposals, the Twenty-seventh used in any event because there will not be a Amendment of the Constitution Bill should have separate machine. been referred to that committee in the first instance as a matter of best practice? Does he Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: They will not be used agree that it is unacceptable that this matter has now. 1155 Ceisteanna — 4 May 2004. Questions 1156

Mr. Naughten: Aer Lingus might make use of Mr. Rabbitte: I believe it does, Sir. Like them. Deputy Kenny I believe we will be forced down the road of a constitutional amendment. The Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: The Government is question was put down not just to highlight the spending public money. fact that the Taoiseach told the House one thing on 17 February and a different thing today. The An Ceann Comhairle: If Deputy O´ Caola´in question was tabled because we want to know wants to deny Deputies Kenny and Rabbitte the whether the Government is contemplating—— opportunity to submit a question he is going the right way about it. Mr. Kenny: This one may be held. The Taoiseach: On the second issue, in so far Mr. Naughten: In all probability it will be held. as this matter was covered in Oireachtas report, there was a clear view of what should happen in An Ceann Comhairle: The question asks what the 1996 Oireachtas review report. It thought we constitutional referendum may be held; it does should legislate to amend the Constitution. not deal with specific cases. Mr. Kenny: I assume Deputy O´ Caola´in would not want to deny his fellow Irishmen, Deputy Mr. Rabbitte: I agree it does not. I am positing Rabbitte and me the right to express an opinion a specific one. For as long as I have been a here. It appears as if we are now in uncharted Member of this House, it has been possible to put waters in respect of Judge Curtin. Today the in such a generic question and to tease it out by Government decided to give him extra time. way of reference to a particular case. I ask the If legislation has to be introduced for judicial Taoiseach if his Government is as resolved this regulation, I assume that would require an week as it was last week—— amendment to Article 35 of the Constitution. If that is the case, obviously it is uncharted waters An Ceann Comhairle: That does not arise out and will require great sensitivity and thorough of these questions. discussion and investigation, as would any amendment of the Constitution. It is good Mr. Rabbitte: ——to impeach Judge Curtin governance to bring the people with Government and whether he thinks it will be necessary for us in dealing with problems. It appears from to have a constitutional amendment to do soundings that the Government will require the precisely that. full co-operation of the House if these waters are to be entered. In that case, would it be good The Taoiseach: On the first issue raised by governance, from the Taoiseach’s perspective, to Deputy Kenny, I do not agree with any of the withdraw the citizenship referendum, which is points he made about the citizenship referendum. being rushed on the people without thorough This issue was highlighted eight years ago. We investigation and analysis? There would then be tried to operate a particular system but abuses of the possibility of two serious referendums, on a the law in some respects were being practised date to be appointed later in the year, following more frequently. This will be a minor change. It full and thorough discussion at an all-party will not have that great an effect on most people. committee or whatever forum may be It will have the effect of closing off an area. I do appropriate. not see the necessity for further debate. Following the debacle of the rushed judgment Regarding the other matter, the Government on electronic voting, serious consideration of an considered it today. As stated this day last week, amendment to the Constitution should be it could be that the House may require changes fundamental to how the Government deals with in Standing Orders and it might require its business. legislation. It is being examined by the Attorney General and the Minister for Justice, Equality Mr. Rabbitte: Is the Taoiseach saying to the and Law Reform. House that no heed should be paid to any answer he gives on this kind of generic question in the My advice at this stage is that it does not cause future because the Cabinet has not formally a constitutional difficulty because the problem is endorsed a referendum? Why did he tell the how to make the mechanism work. This was tried House on 17 February that there would not be a in 2001 and some of those areas have to be referendum when manifestly it was decided revisited. The constitutional right of this House between himself and his Minister for Justice, to deal with a member of the Judiciary by Equality and Law Reform that there would be? impeachment is already in place. Judge Curtin If the Government is as determined this week today asked for additional time and he will be as it was last week to impeach Judge Curtin and given that. to impeach him without compensation, is that The Government has also received the reports still—— from the Director of Public Prosecutions and the Garda Sı´ocha´na. Until a reply is received from An Ceann Comhairle: That does not arise out Judge Curtin, there will be no decision made on of these questions. the action to be taken on those reports. 1157 Priority 4 May 2004. Questions 1158

Mr. Rabbitte: How much extra time has Judge of this legislation. The Minister has made Curtin been allowed? numerous announcements to this effect since he came to office. The House is now being informed The Taoiseach: A fortnight. He asked for two that it will happen during 2004. I ask the Minister weeks from today and he has been allowed two to be more specific about the timetable. weeks from today to reply to the Government. In light of the ongoing delay, is the Minister concerned, as are his officials, regarding the Priority Questions. issuing of grandfather rights to private operators under the current legislation? More than 130 ———— licences were issued in 2003. These people could have grandfather rights which would give them an Public Transport Regulation. additional financial asset over and above licences issued under a new regulatory regime. There is 40. Mr. Naughten asked the Minister for no mechanism either to charge the commercial Transport when he intends to update the Road value or even the cost of those licences. Will the Transport Act 1932; and if he will make a Minister agree that legislation is urgently statement on the matter. [12728/04] required? Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): I plan to enact legislation during 2004 which will repeal Mr. Brennan: I agree that the legislation is the Road Transport Act 1932 and put in place urgently required but it will not be taken in this reformed arrangements for the procurement and session. market regulation of public transport services. I set out my policy proposals for public Mr. Naughten: I figured that out. transport reform in statements to the public transport partnership forum in November 2002 Mr. Brennan: I cannot see that the legislation and the Joint Committee on Transport in June can be brought before the House within the next 2003. As I have stated previously it is now my couple of weeks that remain to the end of June. intention to establish an independent I am determined that it will be put through in the procurement and regulatory body for public course of 2004. transport which will operate on a national basis. The Deputy will be aware that I have been very While recent public discussion on public consistent in the policy on grandfather rights. transport reform has focused almost exclusively There have been a number of national stoppages. on organisational issues and provider concerns, I I have been asked by the Deputies opposite to remain convinced of the need for significant engage in discussions. I have engaged in those reform in the interests of the public transport user discussions and another round is taking place. We and the taxpayer. have had seven meetings since January with the With regard to a new regulatory regime for bus trade unions on this subject. Another five days of services in the Dublin area, I remain firmly of the intensive talks are now about to commence. It view, supported by a number of professional was my response to the request to engage in these studies and experience in other countries, that discussions which added the extra time but I franchising is the most effective means of believe it will be worth it in the end. achieving genuine market opening to new I take the point being made by the Deputy on entrants. I also remain open to additional grandfather rights. I will endeavour in the suggestions provided they are directed at legislation to ensure that no rights are established achieving the objective of genuine market before the legislation which would give people opening to new entrants. Likewise, I am open to automatic rights after the legislation is enacted. reasonable proposals relating to the pace of the When the regulator is conducting contests for introduction of competition so long as this routes or packages of routes, he can conduct an objective is achieved in an acceptable time frame. open contest irrespective of who has the route. I am currently finalising my proposals with regard to bus services outside Dublin. Mr. Naughten: Will the Minister agree that if Talks between officials from my Department he had commenced the discussions when he came and the CIE trade unions on public transport into office, we would not now be in this situation? reform are to recommence on 12 May. An My understanding and that of the Minister’s intensive schedule of meetings over five full days Department as a result of legal advice is that has been arranged by the independent Chair there will be grandfather rights involved. What appointed by the Labour Relations Commission. impact will this have on the franchising of routes? It remains my intention to proceed with Has the Department any estimate of the financial legislation on public transport reform in 2004. loss to the State? The licences granted to Aircoach were worth \15 million. This is already Mr. Naughten: I wish to ask the Minister two a significant loss to the State and there could be separate specific questions. The first question is more significant losses in the future. about the timetable for the legislation. This time two years ago in An Agreed Programme for Mr. Brennan: On the one hand the Deputy Government, the Government promised reform regrets that legislation is not in place in order to 1159 Priority 4 May 2004. Questions 1160

[Mr. Brennan.] route and stand to benefit substantially from such open up the market and that is my wish also. On major transport infrastructure development. the other hand he is worrying about the loss of Would it not be proper that such people should financial income to the State by virtue of the fact make a contribution towards the cost of this that it has not happened yet. I am not sure where important infrastructure? The case for doing so the Deputy is coming from on this matter. has been made and tried elsewhere, notably in Washington DC. Mr. Naughten: Nobody knows where the Du´ n Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council has Minister is coming from. already agreed to fund an extension to Luas by way of development levies. Such is the level of Mr. Brennan: I have been very clear in what I interest in an extension of a proposed metro from want to do. I am seeking to have the legislation the airport to Swords that Fingal County Council completed and put before the House. has offered to pay the cost by means of development levies. Does it not make sense that Light Rail Project. the property owners, the value of whose property 41. Ms Shortall asked the Minister for stands to be enhanced considerably by a metro, Transport if, in view of the very high cost of should make a significant contribution to its cost? building a metro and the need for high passenger Is that not the fairest and most logical approach numbers to make it viable, he will consider to funding a metro project? selecting a route which serves sites with high- density development potential and funding it by Mr. Brennan: I agree with the Deputy and want means of development levies from these sites; and levies to be used to help fund a metro. I intend if he will make a statement on the matter. to ask the Railway Procurement Agency to [12721/04] engage with Dublin City Council and the county councils to use levies to the full in the An Ceann Comhairle: Question No. 44 in the development of a metro. The Deputy will be name of Deputy Eamon Ryan should have been aware that a levy has been proposed to raise taken with Question No. 41. However, that funds with regard to the development of Luas at question falls because the Deputy is not present. Cherryfield. In addition, Cork County Council has commenced procedures to raise levies to help Mr. Brennan: The programme for Government fund the reopening of the railway line to contains a commitment to develop a metro with Midleton. Levies have been used before and I a link to Dublin Airport. I have received the intend that they will be used in the context of revised outline business case for line 1 of a metro a metro. from the Railway Procurement Agency, which involves a line from Dublin Airport to the city I also agree that an extension to Swords, if it is centre. I am finalising my proposals on a metro possible, would give a metro greater critical mass. in the context of the wider transport needs of the Taking a metro through high-density areas also greater Dublin area and I expect to bring these makes sense given that it would have to break proposals to the Government shortly. even operationally, as is the case with the Luas. Metro systems are designed to cater for the The contract for the Luas requires Connex, a needs of areas with substantial passenger flows. private French company operating the system, to Among the important considerations in selecting break even over the next five years. While the a route will be the level of expected patronage State pays the capital cost and interest, the and the potential for raising development levies company must cover operating costs on a day-to- as a contribution towards the cost of the project. day basis through fares. A similar structure is envisaged for the development of a metro and the Ms Shortall: Estimates of the cost of providing Planning and Development Act 2000 would be a metro from Dublin Airport or Swords to the used to raise capital through levies from property city centre range from \2 billion to \5 billion. owners along the route. The operator of the Even the lower figure is a considerable amount system would also have to break even. of money which would be a massive investment, Incidentally, there is increasing scope for the but the cost to the taxpayer of the public private private sector to fund stations when railway lines partnership route proposed by the Minister could are being developed. Iarnro´ dE´ ireann has be much greater than the estimates I have cited. received proposals from the private sector There is a case for developing a route from indicating it is willing to develop and pay for Swords via the airport to the city centre as it railway stations at no cost to the taxpayer as the would allow stops on a number of sites which company opens up new areas for development. have the potential for high-density development. Any such proposals will have to fully comply with Questions have already been raised as to whether planning provisions. Dublin has sufficient population density to As regards cost, advisers engaged by the support a metro. The proposed Swords route Railway Procurement Agency have estimated the would provide a critical mass and, more cost of the various options for phase 1 of a metro important, a source of income to fund a metro project. The current figure envisaged is \1.2 project. Funding could be generated by imposing billion in total direct capital costs at 2002 prices. levies on developers who own land along the This figure increases substantially when one 1161 Priority 4 May 2004. Questions 1162 estimates a final cost which takes account of some of which we have acted on, including expected inflation between now and when the upgrading the DART, developing double and service commences, VAT fees, interest charges, quadruple tracking and resignalling parts of the the cost of risk transfer and provision for risk railway network. Much of the work the company contingency. According to the RPA, an accurate has done in developing its proposals is valuable cost for the metro cannot be ascertained until the and I thank it for them. final structure of the project has been decided A metro offers the best long-term solution. The and competitive bids received from international first line alone would cater for 24 million consortia. This will still be before a contract is passengers per annum. This is equivalent to what signed. the DART and the suburban rail combined are currently carrying. I agree with the Deputy’s An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Under Standing suggested route from DCU to Tara Street via the Orders, Deputy Eamon Ryan’s question falls Mater hospital and O’Connell Street. The because he was not present when it was called. I Government has yet to finalise that route but it will, however, allow the Deputy to ask a seems to be the right one. supplementary question and I will extend the The Deputy posed a very astute question to the time available for the question to 12 minutes. I do PPP. It is not involved because of the structure not want my decision to be taken as a precedent. proposed to finance the metro. This structure involves the State paying nothing until the train Mr. Eamon Ryan: I thank the Leas-Cheann runs for the first time. There would be an 18 Comhairle for his courtesy and I will not seek to month process for tendering and a construction have his decision taken as a precedent. The period of up to four years. There would therefore Minister appears to have indicated recently that be no money for a five year period. A fixed in addition to the metro option, he is considering availability payment of \200 million to \300 an alternative option by Iarnro´ dE´ ireann that it million per annum, according to the RPA, would would use existing railway lines to develop a link be made once the metro was up and running. It to Dublin Airport from the DART line probably is like a fixed mortgage as it is less painful over somewhere north of Maynooth. Does he agree a period of time. That is the present suggested that the real potential benefit from the metro structure of the PPP; the State would not put up proposal is in planning as it would concentrate capital money, the international consortia would development along new lines and service design, build, finance and arguably operate it. An institutions and areas such as DCU, the Mater external firm will operate the Luas so it is likely Hospital, Ballymun and Swords? Would it not be the same will occur with the metro. preferable to concentrate planning along a new I confess that I have sent the proposal back to line, rather than developing the existing DART the RPA more than once for additional railway line? Will he indicate whether his information. I was not satisfied with some Department favours the metro proposal or the suggestions but I hope to have a decision soon. alternative Iarnro´ dE´ ireann proposal? The latter would be a third rate solution that would not Ms Shortall: It is a bit disingenuous to sell it on stand the test of time, which is test the Minister the basis that we will not have to pay a cent until indicated would be used to decide which option the trains are running but will pay through the we should take. nose for it after that. Future generations will be Will the Minister indicate the reason neither in hock if we go about it the way the Minister private nor public funding for a metro has not proposes. been included in his Department’s five-year I would like the Minister to clarify his position capital programme? The small amount of private on the development levies. He said he was funding included in the programme could not exploring the possibility of development levies. I possibly fund the construction of a metro over a referred to development levies to raise funding five-year period and nor would the small capital towards the cost of construction, not the programme allocated for public transport cover operating costs. If he is serious about that and its costs? Why does the capital programme not there is much sense in taking that approach, include funding for a metro? surely it is impossible to combine it with the In the past year and a half, the Minister has standard PPP. He should construct a mechanism stated on a number of occasions that proposals on for financing the metro at an early stage based a metro would be brought to Cabinet for decision on raising considerable funds from development within weeks. I believe I have received about ten levies. However, the Minister seemed to imply replies in which the Minister has made such a from his answer that he will supplement running promise. Does he still believe that to be the case? costs from development levies. If development levies are to be included, the work needs to be Mr. Brennan: One of these days I will be right. done before the model for funding the project is As regards the question on the choice between a decided. What work has been done thus far? metro and Irish Rail’s proposal, having examined If the Minister is proposing to examine the both options I fully support the metro option. possibility of using development levies, the route That is the Department’s position. Iarnro´ d selection is absolutely critical. He will be E´ ireann has made some interesting proposals, attempting to serve those sites where there is 1163 Priority 4 May 2004. Questions 1164

[Ms Shortall.] system is not being implemented in an effective potential for development. The proposed route manner. [12557/04] outlined by the RPA, which goes through my constituency, serves low density housing which Mr. Brennan: The penalty points system will not support a metro. There needs to be some currently applies in respect of the offences of variation on that route if sites that have potential breaching a speed limit, motor insurance and the for development are to be served. The Minister failure of a driver to wear a seat belt or to ensure needs to start looking at that now. that a passenger under 17 years of age is appropriately restrained in a mechanically Mr. Brennan: I am not saying levies will be propelled vehicle. The system was first used for current purposes as they have to be used introduced in October 2002 in respect of speed for capital purposes. I take the point the Deputy limit offences. In the intervening period some made. If the capital cost is to be met initially by 144,000 drivers have had penalty points endorsed the private sector, then where does that levy go? in their licence records. I intend to extend the The RPA claimed that it would acquire much of system to cover the offence of careless driving the land by using these levies initially before it with effect from 1 June next. The effectiveness of signs off on the PPP. the penalty points system can be judged primarily on the basis of the contribution it has made to Ms Shortall: There are very few sites on the road safety since its introduction. In the route that are densely populated. seventeen months since October 2002 the number of deaths as a result of road collisions has fallen Mr. Brennan: The Deputy obviously knows the by 100 by comparison to the previous seventeen site very well. The nearer part of the route from month period. DCU to the Mater hospital to Tara Street to The House will be aware that the IT systems O’Connell Street to Stephen’s Green is heavily needed to support the full roll out of penalty populated. I am not sure if there is much open points to the range of offences listed in the Road space between the Mater hospital and Traffic Act 2002 are not yet in place. I am assured O’Connell Street. by my colleague the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform that the systems in question will Ms Shortall: Why not select a route? be operational by the end of this year. While the national driver file, in which all penalty point Mr. Eamon Ryan: Before the last election the endorsements are recorded is fully operational, in Government said the metro would be up and the absence of the other IT systems, the process running in 2007. Can the Minister predict in what of submitting data relating to the payment of year the metro will run to the airport? The fixed charges or convictions due to penalty point motorway to Waterford would entail a similar offences is being pursued on a manual basis by cost. How does the Minister quantify the benefits the Garda Sı´ocha´na and the Courts Service. As of one against the other as an investment soon as my Department is notified that a fixed decision? Why does the road building programme charge has been paid or that a court conviction get such large public funding, yet public transport has been secured in respect of a penalty point projects like this metro do not get such easy offence this information is processed and the access to immediate cash? notice is issued to the person concerned on behalf of my Department by the Department of the Mr. Brennan: The road building programme Environment, Heritage and Local Government, will cost approximately \8 billion over the next which administers the national driver file. Penalty five years. The public transport programme will points only apply 28 days after the date of that cost \3.5 billion. That is still a very—— notice. This process is normally carried out in Mr. Eamon Ryan: Capital funding is only \2.3 about two weeks, following the receipt of billion. notification by the Garda authorities or the Courts Services. Mr. Brennan: I have the figure of \3.5 billion, In overall terms the introduction of penalty which includes the CIE subvention. That is all points has had a very positive effect on road taxpayers’ funds. safety and I am confident the full roll out of the system will further enhance that effect. That the Mr. Eamon Ryan: In what year will the metro system was launched in advance of the run to the airport? availability of the full IT backup services has contributed directly to saving lives. However, I Mr. Brennan: I have not got that information. understand there have been administrative difficulties associated with the periods between Mr. Naughten: As Johhny Logan said, “What’s the payment to the gardaı´ of fixed charges and another year?” the subsequent notifications to my Department for the purpose of recording penalty points. I Road Traffic Offences. understand the Minister for Justice, Equality and 42. Mr. Crowe asked the Minister for Transport Law Reform has addressed that matter in if he will address concerns that the penalty points previous replies to the House. 1165 Priority 4 May 2004. Questions 1166

Mr. Crowe: I welcome the fact that there have which obtained previously. The number of deaths been 100 fewer deaths on the roads. Many people is still below those for 1999, 2001 and 2002. If the are concerned that the points system is not penalty points system prevents only one death, it effective. More and more people are getting is worth it. However, it is not just a question of points, but many Garda checkpoints are in areas measurement in that narrow sense but also about where there is no danger. These checkpoints are changing driver behaviour. The penalty points on long stretches of roads, on motorways and so system will increasingly change driver behaviour, on. Has the Minister spoken to the Commissioner particularly when the computer system is fully on the proportion of these checkpoints on these introduced because, if one is put off the road and roads? attempts to drive within those six months, one We all know of areas — the Minister has some could receive a prison sentence. This will be a in his constituency, as I do in mine — where really strong incentive not to receive penalty Garda patrols hide behind bus shelters, such as points. at the Spawell, to catch motorists coming off the motorway, which is subject to a higher speed Rail Safety. limit. It is madness and a waste of resources when 43. Mr. Naughten asked the Minister for one considers the speeding cars in housing Transport when the railway safety commission estates, etc. It seems that the system is not being will be established; if he has satisfied himself with implemented at accident blackspots on dangerous the current arrangements; and if he will make a bends and at other dangerous places and this is statement on the matter. [12732/04] why the penalty points system is losing credibility. Will the Minister call on the Garda Mr. Brennan: I intend to make the necessary Commissioner to review his deployment of Garda order formally establishing the railway safety staff to make the system more effective? The commission as soon as possible following the system is concerned with road safety, as the enactment of the Railway Safety Bill. With the Minister said. Should the penalty points system co-operation of the Houses of the Oireachtas, I run in tandem with a broad strategy for road expect the Bill, which completed Committee safety, such as good education and training Stage in the Da´il on 7 May 2003, to be enacted programmes? Many believe the penalty points before the summer recess. I am satisfied that the system is geared more towards generating implementation of the provisions of the amended revenue because of the manner in which points Bill will create an effective and robust regulatory are being allocated for speeding cars. What framework for railway safety. discussions has the Minister had with the Garda Commissioner on this matter? Mr. Naughten: I thank the Minister for his response. However, it is now 12 months since we Mr. Brennan: The Minister for Justice, dealt with Committee Stage of this legislation and Equality and Law Reform has discussed the we still do not now when it will be progressed strategy of tackling speeding with the Garda further. The Minister has established an interim Commissioner on many occasions. The question commission. Will he outline the legal authority of when and where the Garda does its speed this commission possesses? I understand it has checks is an operational matter for the Garda none. If this is the case, does it not make a farce Commissioner but he knows my views, which are of rail safety? The report produced this morning not too dissimilar to those of the Deputy. To be highlights that the incident in Cahir was not due truly effective, the Garda must start targeting the to driver error or a maintenance error, thus places where accidents are likely to happen. raising serious questions about the safety Increasingly, one will see that the force will do assessments of Iarnro´ dE´ ireann. Does the this, especially as we roll out the speed cameras. Minister believe it acceptable that Iarnro´ d This will help substantially. E´ ireann continues to investigate itself regarding The speed limits are being reviewed and it is rail incidents? intended that they will be delineated in metric Does the Minister believe it acceptable that an units towards the end of the year. The Deputy interim commission with no legal standing is now will be aware that the working group has supervising the investigation by the Rail recommended and the Government has agreed Procurement Agency, RPA, into itself regarding with its proposal that the 60 mph speed limit be the Luas tram on 7 April? Does he not believe reduced to 50 mph on what are normally called we need to have an independent statutory country roads or back roads. Most accidents seem commission that could investigate incidents such to take place on such roads. This reduction in the as this and the death of two people on the Luas speed limit, combined with the assurance from rail line in Deputy Gay Mitchell’s constituency the Garda that it will increasingly target these some months ago? Given that people have lost roads, will help considerably. confidence in the RPA, does he not believe it The penalty points system was introduced at unsatisfactory that an independent investigative the end of 2002 and we had the lowest number of mechanism is not in place? road deaths in 40 years in 2003. This year’s figure is being judged against this remarkable Mr. Brennan: I am working to have Report performance, which was quite different to that Stage of the relevant legislation taken in the 1167 Other 4 May 2004. Questions 1168

[Mr. Brennan.] an a` la carte approach to what issues it will House this session. The Deputy will be aware of investigate. For example, the RPA has decided why it was delayed. We had a considerable not to investigate the tragedy Deputy Gay discussion on the inclusion of the intoxicants Mitchell has outlined. There should be a statutory provision in the legislation. independent commission to carry out thorough investigations and it should be seen to be Mr. Naughten: It was brought in the day independent and transparent. The investigation before. cannot take place in independent circumstances rather than under the RPA because the Minister Mr. Brennan: I have now cleared this with has dragged his feet regarding the legislation. Government and will soon have proposals for the House on the matter. I look forward to discussing Mr. Brennan: That is not the case. The chief it with the Deputy when it is before the House. railway inspecting officer is fully entitled to carry I do not have an interim inspectorate out a statutory inquiry in accordance with section appointed. What I do have is a railway safety 7 of the Regulation of Railways Act 1871. inspector, who serves as the interim Whenever the chief railway inspecting officer—— inspectorate—— Mr. Naughten: The legislation is inadequate, Mr. Naughten: On a point of information, a which the Minister has admitted. Da´il reply I received last week states there is an interim railway safety commission which is Mr. Brennan: That is why the new Bill is before supervising the RPA investigation. the House. The legislation requires strengthening.

Mr. Brennan: There is no formal commission. Mr. Naughten: We now have an organisation with no statutory power. Mr. Naughten: Exactly. There is no legal basis for it. Mr. Brennan: The Railway Safety Bill, which is on the Order Paper, will give it the necessary Mr. Brennan: No, but the chief railway powers. inspecting officer of the Department of Transport has legal powers which are quite strong and Mr. Naughten: When? serious. I take the Deputy’s point that they are not strong enough, which is why the Railway Mr. Brennan: Report Stage will be taken in a Safety Bill is on the Order Paper. I agree with the few weeks. Deputy that CIE should not investigate itself, nor should the RPA. The Railway Safety Bill, of Question No. 44 lapsed. which Second and Committee Stages have been taken in the House, as the Deputy knows, will An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: That concludes give the new authority strong powers to conduct Priority Questions. investigations. I have asked the RPA to ensure it promotes the safety aspects of the Luas. People must be Mr. G. Mitchell: On a point of order, the Leas- and will be informed that there are associated Cheann Comhairle is a longer-serving Member of dangers. The Luas is a train and runs on the street the House than I. I note there is a as well as on its dedicated off-street tracks. It is 4 o’clock leak in the roof of the Chamber. Is quite silent and is operated by electricity. this the first time in history there has been a leak into the House and not out of it? Mr. G. Mitchell: What about motorcyclists and cyclists who touch their brakes on the tracks? An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: That is not a point of order. Mr. Brennan: I heard the Deputy make that point also. All those dangers exist and everybody Other Questions. should be aware that there can be dangers attached to any public transport system. I have ———— asked the RPA to promote safety regarding the Luas. People must exercise caution and be aware Aviation Matters. of the safety regulations that apply to any new 45. Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for public transport system. I encourage them to do Transport the extent to which he has had recent so in the case of the Luas. discussions with Aer Rianta or Aer Lingus with reference to the future of air transport; and if he Mr. Naughten: Is it not unacceptable that the will make a statement on the matter. [12537/04] RPA is investigating itself? The former Minister, Senator O’Rourke, was very critical of CIE and 214. Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for Iarnro´ dE´ ireann investigating themselves some Transport the position in regard to the future of years ago. That is why the legislation was brought Aer Lingus; and if he will make a statement on forward. One cannot have an organisation taking the matter. [12711/04] 1169 Other 4 May 2004. Questions 1170

Mr. Brennan: I propose to take Questions Nos. Mr. Durkan: And have the discussion 45 and 214 together. afterwards? My Department is engaging in an ongoing process in Aer Rianta in connection with the Mr. Brennan: Yes. Government’s decision of last July to restructure the company. I will expand on this process in my Mr. Durkan: That is a funny way to do replies to more specific questions tabled today. business. With regard to Aer Lingus, my Department is in regular contact with the company about a range Mr. Naughten: I suppose it is important for the of matters, including its performance in the Minister to make the decision when a future. microphone is shoved in front of him. It is With regard to the future options for Aer important to make a comment on it, at least. Lingus, I have previously advised the House that Mr. Brennan: The Deputy is not shy either. in light of the continuing turnaround in the company’s finances and the continually changing Mr. Naughten: What discussions have taken environment, last July I asked the chairman of place on the privatisation of Aer Lingus and Aer Lingus to examine and report back to me on when does the Minister hope to make a decision the future options for the company. At a meeting on it? Has he discussed the timetable with Aer on 16 September 2003, the chairman furnished his Lingus? Has the Minister raised with the report to me in which it was indicated that a company the downgrading of the level of service private sector investment process should be being provided by Aer Lingus at Shannon initiated without delay. I also commissioned an Airport? Has the Minister discussed the scandal independent corporate finance consultant to of pilots being paid to stay at home rather than examine the sale options for Aer Lingus, taking come to work? Does the Minister not consider account of the Aer Lingus report. In summary, that a serious misuse of State moneys? he has supported the mechanisms proposed in the chairman’s report. Mr. Brennan: With regard to Shannon, that is I recently advised my Cabinet colleagues of the a matter for the board and management of the current state of my deliberations concerning the company in the context of how to run the future of Aer Lingus. I also advised that I will be company commercially. reverting to Government on specific options for the company in the near future. My deliberations Mr. Naughten: Deputy McDaid would like a involve detailed consideration of the reports from more specific comment, particularly in the next Aer Lingus and the independent corporate few weeks. finance consultant as well as a thorough examination of all options for the future of the Mr. Brennan: I read a reported statement from company. the chief executive in the newspapers that he was working to resolve the issue regarding the pilots. Mr. Durkan: Will the Minister indicate what He said it was not sustainable and I agree. discussions he has undertaken with the various parties involved? The unfortunate history in this Mr. Naughten: Everyone would agree with area shows that discussions appear to take place that. after the event rather than before it and the Minister will be aware, as an experienced Mr. Brennan: With regard to discussions on Aer Lingus, the chairman, the chief executive, my Member of the House, that it is better to have Department’s officials and I have had a number discussions before the event rather than after it. of discussions over the past year on the future of Could he also indicate the extent of the the airline. There have also been some discussions with management and the workforce discussions at departmental level with trade in both Aer Lingus and Aer Rianta, if they have union interests but I have not yet put any taken place? proposal to Cabinet. I will certainly have discussions with all concerned in the event that I Mr. Brennan: There has been considerable decide to do that. discussion between myself, my officials and the chairmen of both organisations. Discussions with Ms Shortall: In respect of Aer Rianta, on 18 management have occurred on a regular basis March we were within hours of having all the and almost weekly in recent weeks in the case of airports closed as a result of industrial action. Aer Rianta. There are ongoing discussions. It is That action was threatened because of a breach usually better to have discussions before making of faith by the Minister, according to workers’ a decision—— interests in the airports. The industrial action was only called off following the intervention of the Mr. Durkan: That is usually the approach. Taoiseach. The workers were no longer willing to take the Minister’s word. The Taoiseach Mr. Brennan: ——but sometimes one must intervened on 17 March and gave a clear make the decision first. undertaking to the workers that the business and 1171 Other 4 May 2004. Questions 1172

[Ms Shortall.] With regard to Aer Lingus, we have considered commercial information associated with the a number of mechanisms and we have taken proposed break up of Aer Rianta would be made advice. That process is continuing. available to the unions at an early date. He specifically gave an undertaking that he would Driver Licensing System. provide ample time for consideration of those 46. Mr. Deenihan asked the Minister for figures prior to the publication of the State Transport his proposals for a review of the airports Bill. provisional driver licence system; when he It is six weeks since the strike was called off. expects the review to be completed; when he The Minister says he intends to introduce this expects to have proposals in this regard; and if he legislation before the end of this session, which is will make a statement on the matter. [11012/04] the beginning of July. That does not leave much time for the unions to consider that information. 82. Mr. J. Bruton asked the Minister for It has been suggested that the Minister is trying Transport if he intends to abolish provisional to provoke strike action by his behaviour. Why driving licences; and if he will make a statement has the information not been provided? What is on the matter. [11005/04] the reason for the delay? When does the Minister expect to make that information available to the 92. Ms B. Moynihan-Cronin asked the Minister unions, as promised by the Taoiseach? for Transport his intentions in respect of his announcement of December 2002 of plans to reform the provisional driving licence system; the Mr. Eamon Ryan: With regard to the sale of proposed timeframe for such reforms; and if he Aer Lingus, has the Department carried out an will make a statement on the matter. [12532/04] analysis of whether a trade sale of part of the company or a public offering of part of the Mr. Brennan: I propose to take Questions Nos. shareholding in the company is the preferred 46, 82 and 92 together. option? What is the Minister’s preference Over the years various changes have been between those two alternatives or is there made to the regulatory conditions under which another option for the sale of the company? provisional licences have effect. I am considering whether further changes are desirable in this Mr. Brennan: My Department has provided the regard. In particular, I wish to bring in measures financial information to the financial advisers for that will reduce long-term reliance on provisional the trade unions and to identified trade union licences. I am also reviewing the provision officials, in view of the commercial sensitivity of whereby holders of second provisional licences some of the information. I look forward to taking for cars are not required to be accompanied by a on board, in so far as I can, what the unions person who holds a driving licence for that suggest. category of vehicle, with a view to ending this arrangement. All other provisional licence Ms Shortall: What timeframe is the Minister holders, other than drivers of motorcycles and allowing for a response? work vehicles, must be accompanied by a qualified driver at all times when driving in a Mr. Brennan: I have asked that they come back public place. to me in the next two weeks with their views on In addition, I am considering, in consultation the financial information. The information is with motor cycling interests and the insurance straightforward. It is laid out in working papers industry, measures to improve the training and prepared by PricewaterhouseCooper and other safety of motor cyclists, especially those on financial advisers. It indicates projections for the provisional licences. I intend to submit detailed three airports. The information is not a great proposals for a package of driver licensing secret in many ways. It indicates that Shannon reforms to Government shortly. I envisage these and Cork airports will continue to be under proposals would be implemented on a phased pressure, which is the reason I want to do this. basis. They should have a fresh start. It also indicates that Dublin Airport is under performing in terms Mr. Deenihan: The Minister will agree that of revenue with the number of passengers urgent action is required to address the 13-month increasing and profits decreasing. There is, backlog. Only 18 months ago the average waiting therefore, a need for action. I hope to take on time was ten weeks. Is the Minister aware that board, in a sensible way, the reports from the not having a full driving licence is costing young trade unions. drivers approximately \50 million per year in I am not trying to provoke industrial action. At increased premia? Particularly in rural areas it is the same time, however, I will not be intimidated depriving people of job opportunities and hence by suggestions of action. the need for urgent reform. Will the Minister comment on the eight driving tester vacancies Ms Shortall: Why was there a six-week delay? that remain to be filled? I understand if these eight appointments were made, those testers Mr. Brennan: I do not wish to provoke it. could carry out approximately 15,300 tests per 1173 Adjournment 4 May 2004. Debate Matters 1174 annum, which would greatly alleviate the arranging tests for those on provisional licences backlog. driving HGVs, a large number of whom end up involved in traffic accidents. Mr. Brennan: The heads of the Bill to establish the new driver testing and standards authority Mr. Brennan: I can take a look at that. The have been approved by Cabinet and the drafting applications for driving tests are dealt with in of the Bill is being finalised. I have had rotation. discussions with some civil servants who are due to move to that authority. It is my intention that Ms Shortall: Is it acceptable for a person on a the authority would deal with the backlog in an provisional licence to drive an HGV? aggressive way as soon as it is operational. I am seeking to have the eight vacancies filled as soon Mr. Brennan: It is not. Nor is it acceptable that as possible. I agree with the Deputy that this will those on fourth or fifth provisional licences are make a difference. Approximately 370,000 people driving around the country. currently hold provisional licences. A considerable number of those hold second or Ms Shortall: What will the Minister do about subsequent provisional licences. it?

Mr. Naughten: I note that the Minister is now Mr. Brennan: I propose to get through it. I do trying to pass responsibility for the backlog to the not propose to make any specific arrangements in new authority. However, is it not the case that the case of those with lapsed licences. the Minister caused the backlog in the first place by his irresponsible comments? What specific Written Answers follow Adjournment Debate. actions will the Minister take to address the problem? He is thinking about appointing eight people to fill the tester vacancies. Will he Adjournment Debate Matters. introduce a bonus scheme in the summer and not An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: I wish to advise in the autumn as he did last year, when it was not the House of the following matters in respect of possible to provide any additional tests as they which notice has been given under Standing had to take place during daylight hours? Would Order 21 and the name of the Member in each it not make more sense to have it in place this case: (1) Deputy Durkan — the issue of the summer so that we could clear some of the proposed closure of TB and respiratory services backlog? at Peamount Hospital, Newcastle, County Dublin with consequent risk to patients in the catchment Ms Shortall: Some drivers with provisional area; (2) Deputy Michael Higgins — the urgent licences are currently driving HGVs and buses. need for the Department of Education and Given the high number of HGVs involved in road Science to give priority to the request for a new accidents the Minister should give priority to school (details supplied) the site for which was testing those on provisional licences driving such approved two years ago; (3) Deputy Boyle — to dangerous vehicles. A further category of people discuss the failure of the Government’s so-called had previously got driving licences, which lapsed “decentralisation” programme that is seeing a because of the casual attitude to driving licences proposal for Department of Agriculture and that had developed in the country. This category Food offices and specialised laboratories in Cork includes the Taoiseach. Many experienced drivers City to be moved to Macroom; (4) Deputy who had been driving for many years let their Sargent — that a definite timetable and plan be licences lapse. Does the Minister intend making put in place to provide a water supply system and any special provision for those people or will they a sewerage system to the people of Carraroe in have to undergo a test again? Connemara; (5) Deputy Cassidy — to call on the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to Mr. Brennan: Driving testers are conducting a reopen the Garda station in Clonmellon, County total of 4,000 tests per week. We introduced a Westmeath; (6) Deputy Stanton — the need to bonus scheme last year, which helped provide funding to upgrade the science substantially. I intend to introduce another bonus laboratories in the Christian Brothers secondary scheme and fill these eight vacancies. However school in Midleton, County Cork; (7) Deputy this will only really start when the new authority Deenihan — the proposed closure of a ward at takes office. Tralee General Hospital for three months during Of 1.8 million vehicles in the State, 1.4 million the peak tourist season and other difficulties are motorcars. This leaves approximately 400,000 being experienced at the hospital; (8) Deputy motorcycles and HGVs. I believe the number of Hayes — to say when \2 million will be made motorcycles is approximately 50,000 or 60,000. available to the South Eastern Health Board to This means there are about 300,000 HGVs. I can resource the new unit at South Tipperary General get a more accurate figure for the Deputy. Hospital in Clonmel. The matters raised by Deputies Stanton, Ms Shortall: I do not want an accurate figure. Deenihan, Cassidy and Sargent have been I am asking the Minister to give priority to selected for discussion. 1175 Leaders’ 4 May 2004. Questions 1176

Leaders’ Questions. already been carried out. The commission concluded that there was not sufficient time to Mr. Kenny: The report of the commission on carry out comprehensive additional testing to electronic voting has highlighted the arrogance provide sufficient positive assurance on the and incompetence of the Government and was system before the June elections. a devastating indictment of the Minister for the For that reason the Government decided that Environment, Heritage and Local Government. we should not continue to pursue the matter for The commission was given narrow terms of the June elections, that we would continue the reference, which covered just three issues: operation of this system, that we would abide by accuracy, secrecy and testing. The Government’s what the commission put forward, we would proposal was found inadequate in all three. follow its recommendations, work on its This expensive fiasco represents gross suggestions and continue with the project. As incompetence by the Government collectively Deputy Kenny knows well the capital investment and by the Minister, Deputy Cullen, on an in this project has a lifespan of more than 20 individual basis. The Government would not years. listen to appeals from the Opposition for more debate and would not listen to the members of Mr. Allen: That is 20 years unused. They the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Environment should be stored at Punchestown. and Local Government, when Deputy Allen tried to have these issues discussed with outside Mr. Howlin: What kind of computer has such experts. It would not listen to the advice given a lifespan? by independent IT experts, who expressed serious reservations about its plans. We all have to Mr. Allen: The Government should not be endure political charge. However the Minister for allowed to buy dishwashers. the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Cullen, disgracefully The Taoiseach: It is six weeks to 11 June, and attacked many of those independent experts as I am sure not even Deputy Kenny would argue Luddites and anti-globalisation agitators. that delaying its use beyond six weeks would The Government is now adopting a classic affect a machine with a lifespan of 20 years. I do ostrich-like approach to this report and trying to not think he is saying that. The accurate pretend that the commission was only concerned recording and counting of votes are fundamental with a few minor technical points, which can to the operation of an electronic voting system. easily be resolved. Would the Taoiseach now The commission’s report points to the capability accept his proposal for electronic voting is dead of the Nedap-Powervote system to perform the in the water? Will the Government now drop the functions asked of it. Electoral (Amendment) Bill from the Order Paper and agree to introduce a fully independent Mr. McCormack: The Government is trying to electoral commission to be responsible for the get away with it. running of all future elections, including the introduction of an electronic voting system, which The Taoiseach: The investment in the system would enjoy complete public trust and support? is, therefore, not in any way compromised. The Has the Taoiseach received or sought an offer commission emphasised that its conclusion of resignation from the Minister for the against recommending the system in June is not Environment, Heritage and Local Government, based on any finding that the present system will Deputy Cullen—— not work, but on the desirability of allowing time for further testing and quality assurance, and we Mr. S. Ryan: The Minister should resign. will provide that time.

Mr. Kenny: ——following this expensive fiasco Mr. McCormack: It is a fiddle. reflecting the kind arrogance and incompetence I have not seen for some time? Mr. Kenny: The Taoiseach is well aware that the Commission on Electronic Voting was Mr. J. O’Keeffe: A \50 million fiasco. established only in response to a motion in this House which was tabled by Fine Gael, Labour Mr. McCormack: The Minister should have and the Green Party. Had it not been for that listened. motion and the pressure on the Government, the Taoiseach would have pressed ahead with a The Taoiseach: The commission on electronic flawed system of voting in the June elections. voting, which reported to you, a Cheann During the debate on that motion, the Minister Comhairle, last Friday confirmed that the for the Environment, Heritage and Local selected system for electronic voting could Government, Deputy Cullen, said, “I stress that accurately and consistently record voter the electronic voting system is secure, reliable and preferences. The commission also stated that can be trusted by the people,” but the experts retained by the commission confirmed commission said that was not the case. The that the system accurately and consistently Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, stated counted votes at the pilot elections, which have that this would be the most accurate and, 1177 Leaders’ 4 May 2004. Questions 1178 therefore, the most democratic system we have Deputies: Hear, hear. ever had. He stated that the system is secure, reliable and can be trusted by the people, but the An Ceann Comhairle: There is a time limit on commission thought otherwise. questions and Deputy Kenny has gone well beyond it. Mr. F. McGrath: The Minister should resign. Mr. McCormack: There is a limit on the The Taoiseach: The Taoiseach said he was sure Minister, Deputy Cullen. that if he put his head into the middle of an ATM machine for six weeks, he would probably be Mr. Durkan: The Minister should do the convinced that it was robbing him of his money. decent thing. The commission thought otherwise. The Taoiseach: Deputy Kenny contends that Mr. J. O’Keeffe: The Government is robbing the commission has stated that the system is the taxpayers. flawed and cannot carry out electronic voting, but the commission has not stated that. An Ceann Comhairle: Deputy Kenny, without interruption. Mr. Allen: Did the Taoiseach read paragraph 4 of its report? Mr. Kenny: Last week, the Taoiseach was commendably forthright in condemning the The Taoiseach: It stated that more time should Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Noel be provided to carry out further pilot studies at Dempsey, and the Minister of State at the which point we will see if there is anything wrong Department of Enterprise, Trade and with the system. Employment, Deputy Fahey, for their extravagance and abuse of public privilege. That Mr. McCormack: There is something wrong forthrightness has not lasted very long when he with the Government. dismisses this kind of expenditure as being of a minor order. While it may not be very much to The Taoiseach: As we have said many times, the Taoiseach, \52 million would buy 60,000 the system has been tested internationally, and computers for schools, build 64 teacher schools there is a French contract in place. If the work and remove many thousands from waiting lists. that has gone on here over the past two months How can the Taoiseach have confidence in the shows that anything is wrong, I will be surprised, Minister for the Environment, Heritage and but I will accept it. If the engineers, the Local Government—— technicians and the software developers who have been involved for 15 years in designing the Mr. F. McGrath: He has none. system are found in two months to have created a major flaw, I will accept it. If a flaw is found, Mr. Kenny: ——who, if he did the same in a the commission will be able to state that it has private company, would be sacked forthwith? He found something which will be noted is now sandwiched between the Taoiseach and internationally. At this stage, the commission is the Minister for Defence. merely seeking additional time. I do not accept that Ireland should run away from introducing a Mr. Hogan: It is time to turn the gun on him. modern and far more accurate system and maintain old practices given that it is one of the Mr. Kenny: How can the Taoiseach have most modern countries technologically. confidence in a Minister who has flagrantly abused the public purse to the detriment of \52 Mr. Eamon Ryan: We need a traceable, million? checkable system.

An Ceann Comhairle: I ask the Deputy to Mr. Naughten: There is a constitutional right to give way. secrecy of ballots.

Mr. Cullen: That is not true and the Deputy The Taoiseach: Electronic voting was debated knows it. for five years. There are some in this House who love to condemn the United States of America, Mr. Kenny: Fingal County Council budgeted but it was only in mid-January when a row started \30,000 for electronic voting but will now incur about electronic voting there that people in this costs of \250,000. country tried to argue that we should change the system. An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy has spoken for twice as long as he was entitled to. Mr. Howlin: That is wrong.

Mr. Kenny: The Minister, Deputy Cullen, has Mr. McCormack: The Taoiseach should check no credibility as a Minister and should be the minutes of the Committee on the removed from office forthwith. Environment and Local Government. 1179 Leaders’ 4 May 2004. Questions 1180

The Taoiseach: It is wrong to run away from Mr. Cullen: I am glad I had a shave. methods of making our country more modern. We should use technology rather than being Mr. Rabbitte: The result is that \52 million has dragged away from it by old styles, old parties gone down the drain. and old rants which go on in this House. Mr. Cullen: That is not true. (Interruptions). (Interruptions). Mr. Rabbitte: Taxpayers, \52 million of whose euro has gone down the drain, would be amazed Mr. Rabbitte: Is there any incompetence—— if they could see the flippant manner in which the Taoiseach’s motley doughnut regards this issue. An Ceann Comhairle: Before you conclude, Deputy Rabbitte, I wish to make a point. You Mr. Cullen: That is not true. are entitled to make your presentation without interruption from the Government side of the Mr. Rabbitte: The Taoiseach sometimes House. The Taoiseach is entitled to reply and you convinces me that if he had been around at the are entitled to have your question answered in time of the Wall Street crash, he would have a way that you can hear it without interruption. come into the House to say it was good for the Deputy Rabbitte should be allowed speak economy. We know what is in the commission’s without interruption until his time has concluded report. Not alone is this ill-fated, arrogant and and the Taoiseach should then reply without incompetent experiment buried for 11 June, but interruption. these machines are buried forever. The Taoiseach is wrong when he says there is a flaw in the Mr. Rabbitte: Does the Taoiseach agree that machine. There is no flaw in the machine, the this is the most scandalous, unnecessary waste of flaw is in the Government that required that the taxpayers’ money since Abbotstown? Is there any machine be constructed to specification. It is not incompetence, bungling, administration or abuse the machine that is wrong, it is the manner in of public funds that would cause a Minister in this which the Government went about introducing Government to resign? Is it not the case that the the system. Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Cullen, ought to do Mr. Cullen: The commission found no flaw in the decent thing? the machine. Ms O. Mitchell: Hear, hear. Mr. Allen: The Minister said that two months Mr. Rabbitte: At a time when the Minister for ago. Health and Children is leaking memos to the press to the effect that he is attempting to obtain Mr. Hogan: The Minister is the flaw. \50 million from the Minister for Finance, the Government has wasted \52 million on a system Mr. Stanton: The Minister should resign. of electronic voting for which nobody asked. This was the bright idea of the absent Minister, Mr. Rabbitte: The machine was constructed Deputy Noel Dempsey. We have no shortage of according to an incorrect specification and it tallypersons, yet the Government wastes this cannot be re-engineered. money and considers it a laughing matter. The taxpayers do not think it is a laughing matter. It is Mr. Cullen: That is incorrect. incompetence and arrogance of the highest order.

An Ceann Comhairle: The Minister should The Taoiseach: No money has been wasted on allow Deputy Rabbitte to speak without this project. interruption. Ms O. Mitchell: The Taoiseach should read Mr. Rabbitte: Not only have the views of the the report. Opposition and various academic and information technology experts been dismissed, Mr. McCormack: A great deal of time has but ridicule and scorn have been poured on their been wasted. heads by, among others, the Taoiseach. The Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, came to An Ceann Comhairle: Deputy McCormack, the House to say he thought the Opposition was this is a Labour Party question and Deputy suggesting there were little Fianna Fa´il Rabbitte is entitled to hear the answer without leprechauns — if that is not a tautology, which is interruption. something to which the Minister is not unaccustomed — inside the machines. It turns out Mr. McCormack: That is hard on me. that there were no Fianna Fa´il leprechauns inside the machines, but there were Fianna Fa´il The Taoiseach: The commission has stated that leprechauns in charge of them. its experts have been involved in carrying out 1181 Leaders’ 4 May 2004. Questions 1182 testing. It has examined the voting machines and into something about which he told Vincent the counting software, including the parallel Browne he knew nothing. testing and can confirm that the system can accurately and concisely record voter Mr. Penrose: The Minister of State should be preferences. The commission has not been able, quiet. within the timeframe of its report, to satisfy itself sufficiently as to the accuracy and secrecy of the Mr. Rabbitte: At least he was honest. system to be deployed in June for three reasons: the count and management software has been Mr. Penrose: He is a disgrace. updated many times during the past three years and the impact of these successive modifications Mr. Hayes: He should stick to matters relating cannot be fully tested in the period set out; it has to housing. not been possible for it to obtain access to the full Mr. Naughten: Electronic houses. system source code — a matter which has since been dealt with; and, the system has not been Mr. Rabbitte: The commission also stated that certified as being suitable to use in the Irish the system could introduce the possibility of new context by an accredited testing and certification errorsin the use by electors of the voting system authority. and that interference was possible in certain For those reasons, additional time for testing circumstances.What is the point of of the system is required. The company involved misrepresenting the commission’s findings—— is an internationally tested, reputable company which must convince the commission of the An Ceann Comhairle: Deputy Rabbitte should validity of all its operations. That will take some give way to the Taoiseach. months. In the meantime, the system will not be used in the forthcoming elections. The Mr. Rabbitte: ——and making statements to Government will ensure all issues raised by the the effect that no money has been wasted? The commission and its advisers will be satisfactorily Government spent \157 million clearing the site dealt with. It is unfortunate the system will not at Abbotstown and \52 million on electronic be used in the forthcoming elections. However, voting machines. It treats public money like elections come and go and the machines, when confetti at a time when the Minister for Social rectified to the commission’s satisfaction, will be and Family Affairs saves \52 million off the backs used in subsequent elections. of the most vulnerable in society and when hospitals require \50 million to provide extra Mr. McCormack: The system can never again beds. be trusted. Mr. Penrose: It is disgraceful. Mr. Rabbitte: I do not think Parliament can function in circumstances where, in a matter as An Ceann Comhairle: Deputy Rabbitte should straightforward as this, the Taoiseach can say give way to the Taoiseach in fairness to other with a straight face that no money has been Leaders who stay within Standing Orders. wasted. There is no point in our continuing if he continues to treat the House in that manner. Mr. Rabbitte: All we get from Ministers is What does he mean when he says no money has ridicule, arrogance and incompetence. been wasted? We know from a reply to a parliamentary question last week that \52 million The Taoiseach: The point raised by Deputy has now gone down the drain. Rabbitte is dealt within the report. We also know that the Taoiseach, from the Mr. S. Ryan: I thank the Taoiseach for summary he gave the House, misrepresents the acknowledging that. electoral commission’s findings. It clearly stated that the Government was prepared to proceed The Taoiseach: The Department of the with a system the accuracy of which nobody could Environment, Heritage and Local Government certify following exposure that the software raised the issue, not the commission. version proposed has not yet been finalised. It also stated that the tests exposed in error could Mr. Naughten: The Taoiseach should keep lead to incorrect distribution of surpluses — digging. scarcely a minor matter — and that further tests might expose other errors. Mr. Howlin: Does that make it all right?

(Interruptions). The Taoiseach: The commission stated the surplus was infinitesimal in that it was to a degree Mr. Rabbitte: The Minister of State at the of 0.001. On accuracy, the commission, where it Department of the Environment, Heritage and states that certain of its tests identified an error in Local Government, Deputy Noel Ahern, has the count software which could lead to incorrect enough to deal with in terms of the disappearance distribution of surpluses, stated it did so to a of the RAPID scheme without dipping his nose degree of 0.001. 1183 Leaders’ 4 May 2004. Questions 1184

Mr. McCormack: So the commission was Mr. McCormack: How much would the wrong? Government get for the machines now?

The Taoiseach: The error would not have made An Ceann Comhairle: Deputy McCormack any difference. The matter was identified by the should allow Deputy O´ Caola´in to speak. Department, brought to the attention of the commission and rectified. No great finding is Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: Will the Taoiseach involved. confirm the authenticity of the leaked Cabinet memos which reveal the shambles that is now the Mr. McCormack: Why not use the system Government’s so-called health policy? Has he then? initiated a full investigation of the leaks? Is it the case that they confirm dissent and disgruntlement The Taoiseach: I cannot come into this House within the Department of Health and Children at and state that the system has been ridiculed, as the continued lack of financial support and already stated in the House, and can never be embargo on recruitment forced on it by the used again. That is not what the commission Department of Finance? report states. Will the Taoiseach confirm that the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, has Mr. J. O’Keeffe: The secrecy of the ballot is written to his Cabinet colleagues stating that not secure. some \400 million in capital funding has been The Taoiseach: The commission report states spent on projects throughout the State and that that all the tests and pilot studies it would like to these facilities are lying idle and are not fulfilling carry out cannot be done in the time available. the task for which they were built? Will the Taoiseach confirm that if these units are not Mr. Rabbitte: There is no provision for a opened in 2004, the capital investment therein voter trail. will not be properly utilised and they will not fulfil their real potential? What amount has been The Taoiseach: I listened to Deputy Rabbitte. spent on unused capital investment projects and empty facilities? Can the Taoiseach confirm that An Ceann Comhairle: Deputy Rabbitte should the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy allow the Taoiseach to continue without Martin, is seeking an additional \50 million to interruption. provide properly for the facilities required by these capital investments, which is \2 million less Mr. Penrose: The Government stole the \52 than what the Minister for the Environment, million from the social welfare Vote. Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Cullen, and the Cabinet have wasted in public moneys on The Taoiseach: The commission has little to the e-voting project? say about the machines. The machines have a 20 Will the Taoiseach indicate what will be the year life span. Cabinet response to the Minister for Health and Children’s request? Will he accept that request, Mr. Rabbitte: How much will it cost to store as I urge him to do, in order that these important them? capital projects are properly resourced and that people in the respective communities receive the The Taoiseach: The commission report deals services intended? with the software involved. If, along the road, the commission identifies and proves a problem with The Taoiseach: The Minister for Health and the software, we will then consider the Children will, under the National Development matter.The software is regularly changed and Plan 2000-2006, oversee the spending of some \2 amended.We will await the outcome of the pilot billion for the provision of infrastructure in the tests. The Government is allowing time for the hospital system.It is an ongoing matter for the undertaking of the tests and it is right that it Minister not only to provide for buildings and should do so. equipment but also to cater for running costs in the years ahead.This issue is ongoing in several Mr. Hayes: The Government should sell the hospitals. The Minister must, from the \2 billion machines and put the money into the health being spent on health infrastructure, continue to service. provide resources for the non-pay side in terms of The Taoiseach: Work on the testing will full staffing and non-pay costs for the year ahead. continue during the next couple of months. That is what this memo was about. The question of the memo being leaked is a matter An Ceann Comhairle: I call Deputy O´ Caola´in. for the Departments of Health and Children and Finance, and that matter is under discussion. It is (Interruptions). to the advantage of the country’s infrastructure that so many major and minor infrastructural An Ceann Comhairle: Allow Deputy O´ projects are under way. Many of these are being Caola´in speak without interruption, please. commissioned this year and many others will be 1185 Requests to move Adjournment of 4 May 2004. Da´il under Standing Order 31 1186 commissioned next year. The related equipment, appalling, unsafe and overcrowded conditions at staffing and non-pay costs must be built into the National Maternity Hospital, Holles Street; them. This is an ongoing issue between the the need for the immediate release of funds for Departments of Health and Children and emergency interim measures; and the progression Finance. of building design plans to cater for the relocation of the hospital at the earliest possible date. Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: What are the Taoiseach’s intentions regarding the request of Mr. Morgan: I seek the adjournment of the the Minister for Health and Children? It is the Da´il under Standing Order 31 to discuss the collective view of the House that the Taoiseach following urgent matters: the decision by the and the Department of Finance should respond North Eastern Health Board to downgrade Louth positively to the Minister’s request. Can the County Hospital in Dundalk by ending consultant Taoiseach not accept the public cynicism at the surgical services after 5 p.m. daily; the continual utterances of Government unnecessary and dangerous proposal to transfer representatives in the weeks remaining before the patients to the already overcrowded Our Lady of local and European elections on 11 June, given all Lourdes Hospital in Drogheda; the necessity for we have heard regarding this and other matters? the Government to provide adequate health care Would the Taoiseach not also accept that this cover for all people in County Louth: the need to matter exposes the absence of coherence in the end of drip-feed closure announcements, the Government’s health policy? We have a latest of which came through the LM/FM “Loose significant investment of \400 million in capital Talk” programme; and the downgrading of health projects but we are not prepared to resource care services generally. them in order to see them open and giving the services for which they were intended. Mr. Crowe: I seek the adjournment of the Da´il In response to a question I asked him last under Standing Order 31 to discuss the following week, the Taoiseach indicated that he welcomed urgent matter: to ask the Minister for Education the fact that fewer people had medical cards as and Science to report on the actions he has taken an indication of a decrease in unemployment. At to resolve the protest taking place outside the same time he went on to say he would like to Leinster House where Mr. Tom Sweeney is see more people having medical cards. Can the conducting a hunger strike in an attempt to have Taoiseach clarify whether or not he accepts the the Minister take initiatives to put adequate existence of real suffering, particularly among systems in place to allow victims of abuse to have families with children, and the urgent need to their cases heard in a satisfactory manner. increase the threshold for qualification for medical cards? Mr. J. Higgins: I seek the adjournment of the Da´il under Standing Order 31 to discuss the The Taoiseach: Deputy O´ Caola´in asks if following urgent matter: the criminal waste of up resources are likely to be allocated. In the last to \50 million of taxpayers’ funds on voting seven years the health budget has increased by machines which cannot be used for the local and 20% per year. There has been an increase of European elections on 11 June; the reason the 188% in the health budget since 1997. The health Taoiseach and the Government allowed the service is extraordinarily well resourced. The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Government now spends \10.5 billion on health. Local Government arrogantly to dismiss the This has nothing to do with what will happen in objections raised by a wide range of individuals the next six weeks. The Minister for Health and to his proposals for electronic voting and thus Children is planning the opening, equipping and incur this expenditure; and the need for the staffing of units in 2005 and an ongoing Minister to be separated from the Government, programme of major infrastructural development recycled to the back benches and hopefully involving approximately 20 large projects landfilled by the people of Waterford at the next throughout the country. This is an ongoing task. general election. It is the Government’s ongoing intention to increase the number of medical cards during the Mr. Hayes: I seek the adjournment of the Da´il life of this Government when resources permit. under Standing Order 31 to discuss the following urgent matter: the need for the Minister for Health and Children to indicate when \2 million Requests to move Adjournment of Dail under ´ will be made available to the South Eastern Standing Order 31. Health Board to resource the new unit at South An Ceann Comhairle: Before coming to the Tipperary General Hospital. The delay has Order of Business I propose to deal with a caused severe distress to staff and patients. I ask number of notices under Standing Order 31. I will the Minister to make this funding available as a call on Deputies in the order in which they matter of urgency if the unit is to be retained. submitted their notices to my office. Management of the hospital and the people of south Tipperary waited a long time to have this Ms O. Mitchell: I seek the adjournment of the unit provided. It is vital that the unit be run to Da´il to discuss the following urgent matter: the full capacity and not lost to the county. 1187 Order of 4 May 2004. Business 1188

An Ceann Comhairle: Having considered the What is the point of putting this arrangement matters carefully, I do not consider them to be in on a statutory basis and laying ourselves open to order under Standing Order 31. being sued by the company which continues to possess the relevant intellectual property? Ms O. Mitchell: May I raise a point of order? What does constitute a matter of national An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy will have an importance? opportunity to debate that matter later. I will put the question. Mr. Rabbitte: The Mountains of Mourne falling on top of Monaghan. Mr. Rabbitte: Surely I am entitled to ask a question. An Ceann Comhairle: The health service will be the subject of Private Members’ business An Ceann Comhairle: We are discussing tonight and tomorrow night. There will be an adjourning the Da´il for two hours tomorrow opportunity to raise health matters during that morning for the ceremonies at Arbour Hill. That debate. is being opposed.

Order of Business. Mr. Sargent: To come back to deal with the Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004. The Taoiseach: It is proposed to take No. 8, motion re Ministerial Rota for Parliamentary Mr. Rabbitte: What is the point in returning Questions; and No. 17, Electoral (Amendment) at 12.30 p.m. to compound an error, already of Bill 2004 — Order for Report and Report and monstrous proportions, with the—— Final Stages. It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that No. 8 shall be An Ceann Comhairle: I am sorry, Deputy. The decided without debate; and that the Da´il on its content of Report Stage of the Electoral rising today shall adjourn until 12.30 p.m. on (Amendment) Bill 2004 will be debated now. Wednesday, 5 May 2004, and the sitting shall not be suspended from 1.30 p.m. to 2.30 p.m. on that Mr. Rabbitte: I do not propose to debate the day. Private Members’ business shall be No. 39, content of the Bill. Why is the Taoiseach motion re commitment to end permanently persisting with this measure? What is the purpose hospital waiting lists within two years. of bringing us back from Arbour Hill? An Ceann Comhairle: There are two proposals An Ceann Comhairle: That is not the issue to put the House. Is the proposal for dealing with before us. I call Deputy Sargent. No. 8 without debate agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with the adjournment of the Mr. Sargent: A Cheann Comhairle—— Da´il today agreed?

Mr. Kenny: I do not agree to the adjournment Mr. Rabbitte: I am merely trying to get a reply of the Da´il in respect of No. 17. The Electoral from the Taoiseach as to the purpose of engaging (Amendment) Bill should be withdrawn. in this. It will lay us open to litigation from the supplying company. God knows what the extent An Ceann Comhairle: That does not arise. of the exposure is but there is no point anybody on the side opposite, given their record—— Mr. Kenny: That is what we would be discussing in that period. An Ceann Comhairle: I call Deputy Sargent.

An Ceann Comhairle: We are discussing the Mr. Rabbitte: I will be up again if I do not get adjournment of the Da´il for two hours an answer. tomorrow morning. Mr. Sargent: It is important to give the Mr. Kenny: I do not object to that Government an opportunity to respond to what adjournment. That is because of the Arbour Hill has developed, a clear decision that the Electoral ceremonies. (Amendment) Bill 2004 that we are being asked to debate tomorrow is effectively without merit. An Ceann Comhairle: Is the proposal agreed? There is no rush to enact it.

Mr. Rabbitte: I do not agree to the proposal. I An Ceann Comhairle: That does not arise on do not see the point of the House returning at this proposal. 12.30 p.m. to debate a Bill which relates to 6,000 machines which not even Robert Mugabe would Mr. Sargent: It will make a mockery of this buy. Deputy Hayes wants \2 million for his local House if we return from Arbour Hill to deal with hospital. The 6,000 machines are worth about \2 a Bill which has no merit in the context of the million to some unelected dictator or southern needs of this House. There are many more urgent state of the United States. relevant Bills. 1189 Order of 4 May 2004. Business 1190

Mr. Kenny: The Bill should be withdrawn. The Nos. 8 and 17. No. 17 is the Electoral terms of reference are too narrow. (Amendment) Bill 2004.

An Ceann Comhairle: That does not arise on An Ceann Comhairle: We are not dealing with this question. it. We are dealing with a proposal that the Da´il on its rising today shall adjourn until 12.30 p.m. Mr. Kenny: We are returning to the House to tomorrow, Wednesday, 5 May 2004. That is what discuss a Bill that is completely inadequate. If the we are discussing. One member from each party Taoiseach wants support for an independent is entitled to rise to oppose it. This has been done electoral commission on this matter—— by a member of each party.

An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy will have an Mr. Durkan: At what point will the Opposition opportunity to discuss it this evening and reject No. 17 on the Order of Business? tomorrow. An Ceann Comhairle: It is the prerogative of Mr. Kenny: It is ridiculous to return to discuss the Government to organise the business. it. The Ceann Comhairle sits in the Chair of this House. Page 21 of the report states: Mr. Durkan: I am sorry, a Cheann Comhairle. — in particular, experts retained by the Under Standing Orders, the Opposition is Commission found it very easy to bypass entitled to an opportunity to discuss and vote on electronic security measures and gain the Order of Business. The only issue put is complete control of the hardened PC, at—— overwrite the software, and thereby in theory to gain complete control over the An Ceann Comhairle: That is not a point of count in a given constituency. order.

An Ceann Comhairle: That does not arise. The Mr. Durkan: I am sorry, it is. This is an erosion question before the House is that the House on of democracy. its rising today shall adjourn for two hours tomorrow morning to attend the ceremony in An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy knows that Arbour Hill. it is not a point of order.

Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: I have no objection to Mr. Durkan: Surely we must have an the suspension of the House for two hours opportunity to reject No. 17—— tomorrow morning. However, to resume the Report Stage debate on the Electoral An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy will have an (Amendment) Bill 2004 makes a mockery of the opportunity to vote on it. House before the entire electorate. Mr. Durkan: ——which has resulted in the sum An Ceann Comhairle: That does not arise on of \50 million of taxpayer’s money being spent this proposal. without authority from anybody. We are now ´ being deprived of an opportunity to reject it in Caoimhghı´nOCaola´in: With all respect, it the House. arises because we will be returning to debate No. 17. It is absolute nonsense. Will the Taoiseach, An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy knows that for the credibility of the House please withdraw one is only entitled to vote on proposals before the Bill forthwith? the House. Mr. Durkan: On a point of order—— Mr. Rabbitte: Already once today, the Chair An Ceann Comhairle: Is the proposal for chose to respond to Deputies who had raised dealing with the Adjournment of the Da´il today Standing Order 31 by ignoring them and agreed to? The question is: “That the Da´il on its proceeding directly to Riar na hOibre. rising today shall adjourn until 12.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 5 May 2004.” An Ceann Comhairle: I apologised to the House. Mr. Durkan: On a point of order—— Mr. Rabbitte: The Chair ought not to restrict An Ceann Comhairle: One cannot have a point the apology to this occasion. It should go wider of order when the question is being put. because of the manner in which the Chair rides roughshod over the Members of this side of the Mr. Rabbitte: The Chair cannot railroad the House. House like this Mr. Sargent: Hear, hear. Mr. Durkan: I was up before the question was put. We are dealing with the Order of Business, Mr. Stagg: Hear, hear. 1191 Order of 4 May 2004. Business 1192

An Ceann Comhairle: Standing Orders are proposals as to the arrangements for taking that quite specific. If the Deputy has a problem with business. them, he knows how to change them. The Chair has an obligation to implement the Standing Mr. Durkan: The Opposition—— Orders provided by Members. The Chair will continue to do so. An Ceann Comhairle: It is only these proposals which require the approval of the House. Mr. Rabbitte: We have merely sought to establish the reason Members are being brought Mr. Stagg: Under Standing Orders, the back from Arbour Hill at 12.30 p.m. to debate a proposal before the House requires the approval redundant Bill that has already cost the taxpayer of the House. That is what we are dealing with. a fortune and in respect of which the taxpayer will be exposed to further moneys. An Ceann Comhairle: I will put the question to the House again. An Ceann Comhairle: That does not arise. The Question, “That the Da´il on its rising today Deputy will have an opportunity on Report shall adjourn until 12.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 5 Stage. May 2004”, put and declared carried.

Mr. Kenny: The Chair is under a Mr. Kenny: The House will discuss tonight the misapprehension. This matter was not agreed. question of the abolition of waiting lists which the Deputy Durkan raised a point of order and the Government this time two years ago in its Chair sought to put the question. programme for Government 5 o’clock promised to eliminate in two years. I An Ceann Comhairle: The only matters that notice it has pulled the pigeon from the House is entitled to debate on the Order of under the cloth with the issuing of a statement Business are proposals from the Taoiseach. that the national treatment purchase fund will have new responsibilities from today for the Mr. Kenny: I have no objection to attending recording and publishing of waiting lists. the very important commemoration ceremony in Arbour Hill tomorrow. My point is that the An Ceann Comhairle: That matter does not flawed Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004 should arise on the Order of Business. It will be raised be withdrawn, as its terms of reference are too during Private Members’ Business. narrow. We should have an independent electoral Mr. Kenny: It deals with legislation. The commission dealing with all elections, in which waiting list will be reduced by 4,500 tonight. the people can put their trust. An Ceann Comhairle: Does the Deputy have An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy has made an appropriate question? his point. He is trying to frustrate the Order of Business. Mr. Kenny: In what legislation does it refer to patients who are not medically suitable to Mr. Kenny: I expect the Chair to put the undergo treatment, or patients no longer question again because it was not agreed. requiring treatment? Who is included in these categories of patient? An Ceann Comhairle: Let us be absolutely clear. Ms McManus: Patients who are dead.

Mr. Kenny: If the Chair plays back the An Ceann Comhairle: Is this promised televised record, in the way they do at an legislation? international rugby match, he will see that Deputy Durkan was on his feet raising a point The Taoiseach: There will be a debate on the of order. issue tonight.

An Ceann Comhairle: It was not a point of Mr. Kenny: The statement was issued today to order and Deputy Durkan is long enough in the reduce by 4,500—— House to know that. An Ceann Comhairle: That matter does not Mr. Kenny: It was a point of order and I ask arise on the Order of Business. There will be an the Chair to put the question again because this opportunity tonight and tomorrow night to matter is not agreed. discuss the issue.

An Ceann Comhairle: For the benefit of Mr. Kenny: There are two categories of people. Members and to make it absolutely clear, the Who are “patients not medically suitable to House is not required to approve the Order of undergo treatment”? Who are “patients no Business. It is the Taoiseach’s prerogative to longer requiring treatment”? Are they people announce the Government’s business and make who are dead? 1193 Order of 4 May 2004. Business 1194

An Ceann Comhairle: I call Deputy Rabbitte. the disability Bill. If we are talking about what is urgent, the disability Bill has been left on the long (Interruptions). finger for many years. The building control Bill has been moved and both are needed for people Mr. Rabbitte: Has the Taoiseach been offered with disabilities. The Electoral (Amendment) Bill resignation by any member of the Cabinet in does not even make provision to vote for people respect of fiascos that have occurred over the past who are blind. four or five days? The Taoiseach: It is hoped that both Bills will An Ceann Comhairle: That matter does not be passed this year. arise on the Order of Business. I call Deputy Sargent. Mr. Hogan: When will the health and safety at work Bill be introduced in the Da´il? Is the Hanly Mr. Rabbitte: If he has not, is it his intention report still Government policy? to ask for the resignation of any member of the Cabinet? The Taoiseach: The health and safety at work Bill will be before the House this session. The An Ceann Comhairle: I call Deputy Sargent. answer to the other question is “yes”.

Mr. Rabbitte: A Cheann Comhairle, you ´ appear to think I get up for amusement to ask Caoimhghı´nOCaola´in: When speaking in the questions. I am asking a question. Da´il last Friday, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform said he hoped to bring before An Ceann Comhairle: Like me, the Deputy has Government some form of green card system for been a long time in the House and he is aware of migrant workers. Will the Taoiseach tell us if Standing Order 26. heads of a Bill have come before Cabinet in that regard and when can we expect legislation? If Mr. Rabbitte: It is a perfectly legitimate such a major change in our immigration law is question. being considered, is it not appropriate to withdraw the Twenty-seventh Amendment of the An Ceann Comhairle: Not for the Order of Constitution Bill—— Business. An Ceann Comhairle: That matter does not Mr. Rabbitte: It is long practice if there is any arise. change in the make-up of the Cabinet. You know that, a Cheann Comhairle, as well as I do. I am Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: : —and allow for a full asking politely whether the Taoiseach has made and informed debate to take place throughout the any such request or received notice of intention country, addressing all the issues contingent on to resign from any Minister and, if not, if it is these matters? his intention to ask any member of the Cabinet to resign. The Taoiseach: Work is continuing on the immigration and residency Bill. The Taoiseach: No, no, no. Mr. Durkan: Given that the national Mr. Rabbitte: Shame, shame, shame. monuments Bill is proposed before the end of this session, would it be possible for the Minister for (Interruptions). the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to get together all the electronic An Ceann Comhairle: I call Deputy Sargent. voting machines, melt them down and have them located at a suitable location as a memento to Mr. Sargent: James Joyce could not have the spending of \52 million of taxpayers’ money written a better line. without authorisation—— Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: It sounded more like Margaret Thatcher. An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy will have to find another way to raise that issue. Mr. Sargent: Many Bills which could be considered far more urgent than the Electoral Mr. Durkan: ——while there are serious (Amendment) Bill would probably cost much less glitches in the health service which need than \52 million to implement. Will the attention? Taoiseach take action against that waste of \52 million? Ms O’Sullivan: One of the issues of concern to Mr. Tom Sweeney, who is on hunger strike An Ceann Comhairle: I call Deputy Hogan. outside the Da´il, is the Residential Institutions Redress Act. Will either the Taoiseach or his Mr. Sargent: I am asking about promised representatives meet Mr. Sweeney or his legislation, including the building control Bill and representatives to discuss—— 1195 Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004: 4 May 2004. Order for Report Stage 1196

An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy must ask a questions to the Minister for Agriculture and question appropriate to the Order of Business. Food.” This issue was raised on the Adjournment last week. It was also raised last week by the leader Question put and agreed to. of the Deputy’s party.

Ms O’Sullivan: I too raised the issue last Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004: Order for Thursday. I am asking specifically about the Report Stage. legislation, because it is part of the problem. Will Minister for the Environment, Heritage and the Taoiseach look at the Residential Institutions Local Government (Mr. Cullen): I move: “That Redress Act to see if it should be amended? Report Stage be taken now.”

The Taoiseach: There is no amendment An Ceann Comhairle: Is that agreed? promised. A number of conversations took place with the individual concerned to try to assist him Mr. Allen: I object. I find it incomprehensible and explain these matters to him. that the Minister is moving Report Stage of a Bill which provides for the introduction of electronic Mr. Boyle: Will the strategic national voting for the June elections when the infrastructure Bill be preceded by the Commission on Electronic Voting reported last appointment of an independent commission to week and gave a damning judgment on the assess the safety of incineration technology given Minister’s judgment in all of this. I cannot that the Minister for the Environment, Heritage understand how he has the neck to press ahead with Report Stage of the Bill when it totally lacks and Local Government wholeheartedly endorses credibility. The Taoiseach was very selective the technology while his technical expertise in when quoting from the Bill. He did not other areas has been shown to be wanting? mention——

The Taoiseach: Preparation of the Bill is An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy should not continuing. go into details.

Mr. Morgan: In light of the recommendation in Mr. Allen: I will not go into details. He did not the ninth progress report of the All-Party mention the contents of paragraph (iv) which said Oireachtas Committee on the Constitution, that the system could be entered into, interfered following 17 months of consultations that with—— legislation to abolish ground rents should be introduced, is such legislation a priority for the An Ceann Comhairle: That matter does not Government and when will it be brought arise. forward? Mr. Allen: I am indicating that I object to The Taoiseach: It is not possible to indicate but taking Report Stage. The Minister has lost all the recent reports of the constitutional group will credibility. He has had an arrogant attitude to the be examined. issues raised by Opposition spokespersons and the experts who attended the hearing at the request of the Minister and the committee on 18 Ministerial Rota for Parliamentary Questions: December last. Following the hearing of 18 Motion. December, questions under the 41 headings Minister of State at the Department of the raised by experts were not answered for more Taoiseach (Ms Hanafin): I move: than a month by officials of the Department. It went from December to February before answers That, notwithstanding anything in Standing were given to some of the questions raised. I Orders or in the Resolution of the Da´il of 6 know what happened. The committee adjourned June, 2002, setting out the rota in which for lunch and the whip of the Department got an questions to members of the Government are instruction to collapse the committee’s hearing. to be asked, or in the Resolution of the Da´il of That afternoon, by weight of numbers, Fianna 27 April, 2004, questions for oral answer, Fa´il and the Progressive Democrats rushed following those next set down to the Ta´naiste through a motion—— and Minister for Enterprise, trade and Employment, shall be set down to Ministers in An Ceann Comhairle: A brief comment as to the following temporary sequence: why the Deputy opposes taking Report Stage. Minister for Education and Science Mr. Allen: I am about to finish. That afternoon Minister for Foreign Affairs the PDs and Fianna Fa´il pushed through a motion accepting the proposal to introduce electronic whereupon the sequence established by the voting for the elections in June. The following Resolution of 6 June, 2002, shall continue with morning—— 1197 Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004: 4 May 2004. Order for Report Stage 1198

An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy is making a told him at the end of last week. Had he listened Second Stage contribution. I call Deputy then to what we had to say, we might have made Gilmore. a lot more progress on this issue and it would not have resulted in the taxpayer being charged \52 Mr. Allen: Some \51 million of taxpayers’ million for this political adventure. His failure to money is gone down the drain. listen then was a display of arrogance. His spending of \52 million of taxpayers’ money was An Ceann Comhairle: There will be an reckless and proceeding with an electronic voting opportunity to debate the issue. system which the commission has criticised in such stark terms was absolutely irresponsible. Mr. Allen: Within 48 hours of the committee I say to the Minister directly and without hearing collapsing as a result of representatives personal rancour that since last Friday he should of Fianna Fa´il and the Progressive Democrats, have either resigned his office as Minister for the contracts were signed with the Dutch company, Environment, Heritage and Local Government incurring huge losses for the taxpayers. or he should have been sacked.

An Ceann Comhairle: That does not arise. I An Ceann Comhairle: That does not arise. ask the Deputy to speak to the motion before the House. I call Deputy Gilmore. Mr. Gilmore: I also oppose the taking of Report Stage because the context of the Bill has Mr. Allen: I am accusing the Minister of now entirely changed. The commission has negligence and arrogance, and I ask that he reported and this item is on the Order Paper consider his position. today because the Government was in such a hurry to get the electronic voting system in place Mr. Cullen: No taxpayers’ money was wasted. for 11 June. It cannot now be used on 11 June and therefore the time of this House would be Mr. Quinn: That is not true. better spent debating Bills that are of importance to people such as Report Stage of the Residential Mr. Allen: The Minister had a lot to say, and Tenancies Bill, for which we have been waiting not only that, but he gave his friends in Fianna since last February and was shunted into a siding Fa´il a \5 million contract and in recent weeks in order that the Minister could proceed with the they have gone around the country attempting to electronic voting legislation. undermine the commission. In any event, the issues which now arise in An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy is making a regard to electronic voting cannot be addressed in Second Stage speech. We are talking about the confines of a Report Stage debate. The issues introducing Report Stage. reported on by the commission now need a proper Committee Stage-type debate. Therefore, Mr. Allen: I object to the taking of Report the Labour Party opposes the taking of Report Stage of this Bill and I ask the Minister to do the Stage. decent thing, resign and give some satisfaction to the taxpayers who have been taken for a ride on Mr. Boyle: It is somewhat surreal that the this matter. House is being asked to debate Report Stage of a Bill which no longer has any meaning. It Mr. Durkan: Hear, hear. certainly has no sense of urgency given that the purpose for which it was introduced on a very Mr. Gilmore: A Cheann Comhairle, I have rushed basis through Second Stage, Committee submitted to your office a motion seeking the Stage and the proposed Report Stage no longer recommittal of the Electoral (Amendment) Bill exists. The report of the independent commission 2004 to Committee Stage. Do I move the gives a reason that this Bill should be agreed in recommittal if it is agreed that Report Stage be some element by this House eventually, but it is taken? not required now, namely, that the commission desires to be placed on a statutory basis, about An Ceann Comhairle: That cannot be moved which no one in this House would argue. until we are on Report Stage. As soon as we are During the course of this Bill, the Minister has on Report Stage, we will take the Deputy’s displayed behaviour which indicates he is guilty proposal. of either gross arrogance or technological illiteracy. Given his stance on other issues — I Mr. Gilmore: On behalf of the Labour Party, I cited the example of incineration — he is more oppose the taking of Report Stage because the guilty of the latter. It is only a matter of weeks Minister presenting the Bill should no longer be since a vote of no confidence in the Minister was the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and tabled in this House. He managed to get the Local Government. Last autumn he refused to support of those who sit figuratively and listen to the views of the Opposition parties and metaphorically behind him in the House. to technical experts who told him then much the However, if that same vote were put today would same as the Commission on Electronic Voting the Minister have the same confidence of this 1199 Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004: 4 May 2004. Order for Report Stage 1200

[Mr. Boyle.] on a statutory basis. The commission in its report House? On those grounds we should not proceed urges this House to get on with the job of with this farce of a debate. ensuring its position is secure by putting it on a statutory footing. That is the basis of this Bill. Mr. Morgan: I too support Deputy Gilmore’s Members opposite know that the Bill deals proposal to recommit this legislation to with issues in the forthcoming elections other Committee Stage. The system we have debated than electronic voting. and attempted to amend in the past few weeks is not now in place. It is effectively off the agenda Mr. McCormack: The Minister saw no need for having been totally and absolutely discredited. a Bill a month ago. During the course of the Committee Stage debate Mr. Cullen: It deals with personation and the on this Bill the Minister undertook that if this facilitation of a number of existing councillors system collapsed or failed he would take full who are council employees and are standing in responsibility for it. That is what has happened the forthcoming elections. It is also important to — the system has failed us and therefore I ask the point out that the provisions in the Bill on Minister to accept his undertaking on Committee electronic voting provide a regulatory framework Stage to take full responsibility for it. The door is only. They can be enacted in the knowledge that up above and I urge him to move in that the commission will continue to do its work in direction. respect of the secrecy and accuracy of the system. That is why we need to proceed with the Bill and Mr. Cullen: I find myself between the usual the commission has asked us to proceed rock and hard place because I have no doubt that immediately with the Bill to put it on a statutory if I came to the House this afternoon to announce footing. That is why the proposal to proceed is that I was pulling the Bill there would be uproar before the House. from the Opposition for the reason that the Commission on Electronic Voting needs to be put Question put.

The Da´il divided: Ta´, 69; Nı´l, 53.

Ta´

Ahern, Bertie. Kelly, Peter. Ahern, Dermot. Killeen, Tony. Ahern, Michael. Kirk, Seamus. Andrews, Barry. Lenihan, Brian. Blaney, Niall. Lenihan, Conor. Brady, Johnny. McCreevy, Charlie. Brady, Martin. McDaid, James. Browne, John. McDowell, Michael. Callanan, Joe. McEllistrim, Thomas. Carey, Pat. McGuinness, John. Carty, John. Martin, Michea´l. Cassidy, Donie. Moloney, John. Cooper-Flynn, Beverley. Moynihan, Donal. Coughlan, Mary. Moynihan, Michael. Cregan, John. Mulcahy, Michael. Cullen, Martin. Nolan, M. J. Curran, John. O´ Fearghaı´l, Sea´n. Davern, Noel. O’Connor, Charlie. de Valera, Sı´le. O’Dea, Willie. Dempsey, Tony. O’Donnell, Liz. Devins, Jimmy. O’Keeffe, Batt. Ellis, John. O’Malley, Fiona. Fahey, Frank. O’Malley, Tim. Finneran, Michael. Parlon, Tom. Fleming, Sea´n. Power, Peter. Gallagher, Pat The Cope. Power, Sea´n. Glennon, Jim. Ryan, Eoin. Grealish, Noel. Sexton, Mae. Hanafin, Mary. Smith, Brendan. Harney, Mary. Smith, Michael. Haughey, Sea´n. Wallace, Mary. Hoctor, Ma´ire. Walsh, Joe. Jacob, Joe. Wilkinson, Ollie. Keaveney, Cecilia. Woods, Michael. Kelleher, Billy.

Nı´l

Allen, Bernard. Connaughton, Paul. Boyle, Dan. Connolly, Paudge. Bruton, John. Costello, Joe. Burton, Joan. Cowley, Jerry. 1201 Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004: 4 May 2004. Report Stage 1202

Nı´l—continued

Crawford, Seymour. Morgan, Arthur. Crowe, Sea´n. Naughten, Denis. Cuffe, Ciara´n. Noonan, Michael. Deasy, John. O´ Caola´in, Caoimhghı´n. Deenihan, Jimmy. O´ Snodaigh, Aengus. Durkan, Bernard J. O’Dowd, Fergus. English, Damien. O’Keeffe, Jim. Enright, Olwyn. O’Shea, Brian. Gilmore, Eamon O’Sullivan, Jan. Gormley, John. Pattison, Seamus. Gregory, Tony. Penrose, Willie. Hayes, Tom. Quinn, Ruairı´. Higgins, Joe. Rabbitte, Pat. Hogan, Phil. Ring, Michael. Howlin, Brendan. Ryan, Eamon. Lynch, Kathleen. Ryan, Sea´n. McCormack, Padraic. Sargent, Trevor. McGinley, Dinny. Sherlock, Joe. McGrath, Finian. Shortall, Ro´ isı´n. McGrath, Paul. Stagg, Emmet. McHugh, Paddy. Stanton, David. McManus, Liz. Wall, Jack. Mitchell, Olivia.

Tellers: Ta´, Deputies Hanafin and Kelleher; Nı´l, Deputies Durkan and Stagg.

Question declared carried. contained in a Schedule to the Bill, need to be amended, thus requiring a recommittal. Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004: Report Stage. Other issues have been raised by the commission which require a Committee Stage Mr. Gilmore: I move: type debate. For example, the finding by the That, having regard to the findings of the commission that “the system has not been tested Commission on Electronic Voting on the as a whole or certified as being suitable for use in secrecy, accuracy and testing of the chosen an Irish electoral context by an accredited testing electronic voting system, the Electoral and certification authority” would require a (Amendment) Bill 2004 be recommitted in its Committee Stage amendment, as would the entirety. finding that: “certain of the tests performed at the The Bill is before the House because the request of the Commission identified an error in Government has been in a mad rush to get the the count software which could lead to incorrect electronic voting system in place for 11 June. The distributions of surpluses; there is a possibility Committee Stage debate, which took place last that further testing will uncover further software week, took place prior to the interim report of errors;”. The finding, which is alarming, that: the Commission on Electronic Voting. That . . . there is a possibility of interference with report changes the context for the Bill. First, the voting machine, ballot module and electronic voting will not be used on 11 June. hardened PC: Second, there are issues which arise from the report of the commission which require the Bill — in particular, experts retained by the to be amended on Committee Stage. Commission found it very easy to bypass On pages 12 and 13 of the commission’s report, electronic security measures and gain there are comments by the commission on its complete control of the “hardened” PC, terms of reference. The terms of reference for the overwrite the software, and thereby in commission, when established on a statutory theory to gain complete control over the basis, are contained in a Schedule to the Bill. The count in a given constituency—— implications of the comments by the commission in its report relating to its terms of reference An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy should would require amendments to be tabled to the confine himself to a brief comment. Bill. For example, the commission states: “Issues such as the existence of a voter verifiable audit trail, the removal of the possibility of abstaining Mr. Gilmore: I am giving examples of the issues or spoiling a vote, voter acceptance of the system, which are raised in the interim report of the alternative electronic voting systems and issues Commission on Electronic Voting. surrounding the procurement of the chosen system and the procurement of previous testing An Ceann Comhairle: I accept the Deputy’s of the system were outside the Commission’s point, but they might be more appropriate when terms of reference”. It appears, given the the debate proceeds. comments made by the commission, that the terms of reference for the commission, which are Mr. Gilmore: I take the point. 1203 Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004: 4 May 2004. Report Stage 1204

An Ceann Comhairle: There is no provision for Mr. Cuffe: I echo the sentiments expressed by a general debate when a Member opposes an Deputy Gilmore and suggest the detailed order. discussion we might have here is akin to a debate and discussion as to what music should be played Mr. Gilmore: There are so many issues and so on the Titanic. Given that a dramatic decision has many criticisms made of this electronic voting been made and a dramatic report has been system by the commission that I would detain the published, we should not proceed on this basis. House a long time if I were to go through them all. Therefore, I do not propose to do that. We Mr. Morgan: The only way to get this right is were not aware of all these issues in the report to begin again. That is clear from the comments of the commission when we debated the Bill on of the commission. Committee Stage. Report Stage amendments arise out of Committee Stage debate. It is not (Interruptions). possible to have these issues addressed on Report Stage and, for those reasons, I ask that the Bill in An Ceann Comhairle: Allow Deputy Morgan its entirety be recommitted. speak without interruption, please. Mr. S. Ryan: On a point of order, how can the A Deputy: Try to get it right the next time. views or comments for a general debate take place on Report Stage? Mr. Morgan: The best message I could hear An Ceann Comhairle: I said there could not be from the Government side of the House would a general debate on a proposal dealing with how be that the Minister was resigning, which is what we do our business. he undertook to do on Committee Stage. Given that he will not do that and that the Taoiseach Mr. Allen: I will be brief. appears unwilling to dispatch him, we will have to carry on with this legislation. I support the An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy should be motion from Deputy Gilmore that the Bill be very brief. It is really a matter for the proposer recommitted because we are starting from and the respondent from the Government side. scratch. If only the Minister had consulted from the beginning, this problem would not have Mr. Allen: When I opposed the taking of arisen. In the absence of that consultation, we are Report Stage, the Chair continued to interrupt in a cul-de-sac with this system. me. I hope I get some order at this stage. Minister for the Environment, Heritage and An Ceann Comhairle: The Chair never Local Government (Mr. Cullen): As I have interrupts; it intervenes. already stated, it was my understanding that the Opposition fully supported the view that the Mr. Allen: The Chair intervened continuously and interrupted me. I agree with what Deputy commission should be put on a statutory footing. Gilmore has said. The Taoiseach said earlier that That was the starting point in all of this and a the commission had further work to do. That may core reason for the debate and the legislation. It be so but its work will be ineffective because the is quite clear from the report that the commission Taoiseach should realise that the narrow terms of wants to see that promise fulfilled as quickly as reference of the commission makes it impossible possible. I have no doubt if I told the House this for it to deal with a number of issues, one of afternoon that the Government was not which is the question of the verifiable paper proceeding with the legislation, there would be audit trail. uproar on the other side of the House and the Opposition would accuse me of trying to An Ceann Comhairle: We are discussing undermine the commission. The games are over. whether the Bill should be recommitted. The Government will proceed on the commitment given that the commission would be Mr. Allen: The Taoiseach is compounding the set up on a statutory basis. litany of errors in which the Government has involved itself by expecting the commission to (Interruptions). continue its work, despite its narrow terms of reference. Question put.

The Da´il divided: Ta´, 51; Nı´l, 70.

Ta´

Allen, Bernard. Costello, Joe. Boyle, Dan. Cowley, Jerry. Bruton, John. Crawford, Seymour. Burton, Joan. Cuffe, Ciara´n. Connaughton, Paul. Deasy, John. Connolly, Paudge. Deenihan, Jimmy. 1205 Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004: 4 May 2004. Report Stage 1206

Ta´—continued

Durkan, Bernard J. O´ Caola´in, Caoimhghı´n. English, Damien. O´ Snodaigh, Aengus. Enright, Olwyn. O’Dowd, Fergus. Gilmore, Eamon. O’Keeffe, Jim. Gormley, John. O’Shea, Brian. Gregory, Tony. O’Sullivan, Jan. Hayes, Tom. Pattison, Seamus. Higgins, Joe. Penrose, Willie. Hogan, Phil. Quinn, Ruairi. Howlin, Brendan. Rabbitte, Pat. Lynch, Kathleen. Ring, Michael. McCormack, Padraic. Ryan, Eamon. McGinley, Dinny. Ryan, Sea´n. McGrath, Finian. Sargent, Trevor. McGrath, Paul. Sherlock, Joe. McHugh, Paddy. Shortall, Ro´ isı´n. Mitchell, Olivia. Stagg, Emmet. Morgan, Arthur. Stanton, David. Naughten, Denis. Wall, Jack. Noonan, Michael.

Nı´l

Ahern, Bertie. Kelleher, Billy. Ahern, Dermot. Kelly, Peter. Ahern, Michael. Killeen, Tony. Andrews, Barry. Kirk, Seamus. Blaney, Niall. Lenihan, Brian. Brady, Johnny. Lenihan, Conor. Brady, Martin. McCreevy, Charlie. Browne, John. McDaid, James. Callanan, Joe. McDowell, Michael. Carey, Pat. McEllistrim, Thomas. Carty, John. McGuinness, John. Cassidy, Donie. Martin, Michea´l. Cooper-Flynn, Beverley. Moloney, John. Coughlan, Mary. Moynihan, Donal. Moynihan, Michael. Cregan, John. Mulcahy, Michael. Cullen, Martin. Nolan, M.J. Curran, John. O´ Fearghaı´l, Sea´n. Davern, Noel. O’Connor, Charlie. de Valera, Sı´le. O’Dea, Willie. Dempsey, Noel. O’Donnell, Liz. Dempsey, Tony. O’Keeffe, Batt. Devins, Jimmy. O’Malley, Fiona. Ellis, John. O’Malley, Tim. Fahey, Frank. Parlon, Tom. Finneran, Michael. Power, Peter. Fleming, Sea´n. Power, Sea´n. Gallagher, Pat The Cope. Ryan, Eoin. Glennon, Jim. Sexton, Mae. Grealish, Noel. Smith, Brendan. Hanafin, Mary. Smith, Michael. Harney, Mary. Wallace, Dan. Haughey, Sea´n. Walsh, Joe. Hoctor, Ma´ire. Wilkinson, Ollie. Jacob, Joe. Woods, Michael. Keaveney, Cecilia.

Tellers: Ta´: Deputies Durkan and Stagg; Nı´l: Deputies Hanafin and Kelleher.

Question declared lost. The purpose of the amendment is to provide for an Irish title for the Commission on Electronic Mr. Gilmore: I move amendment No. 1: Voting. In his response to my earlier motion, which I regret was not accepted, the Minister In page 5, line 5, after “TO” to insert the stated that his reason for proceeding with the Bill following: today was the requirement that the commission “ESTABLISH A BODY TO BE be established on a statutory basis. While I accept KNOWN AS AN COIMISIU´ NUM that this is the case, this could be achieved by VO´ TA´ IL LEICTREONACH, OR IN THE dealing separately with Part 3 of the Bill which ENGLISH LANGUAGE, THE deals with the establishment of the commission. COMMISSION ON ELECTRONIC The Labour Party would probably agree if the VOTING, AND TO”. Minister were to make such a proposal. 1207 Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004: 4 May 2004. Report Stage 1208

[Mr. Gilmore.] impossible for anyone to certify its accuracy. The House and the country owe a debt of There are also issues of secrecy. An individual gratitude to the commission which was voter could effectively be intimidated or established at a time of political conflict and corrupted while casting a vote. An insider could partisan views in the House on the proposed overcome the random methods used for the electronic voting system. This was no fault of storage of votes in the ballot module. The people Deputies on this side who sought at the Joint engaged by the commission were able to bypass Committee on the Environment and Local the security measures and gain complete control Government to persuade the Government to of the PC. The count could be manipulated. All approach the issue on an all-party basis. The these issues were raised either by Members in the Government decided unilaterally to proceed with various debates in the House or in the committee, the system and ran into difficulty. As Deputies or were raised by technical experts who made Kenny and Allen reminded the House, it was submissions to the committee. These concerns only on foot of a motion tabled by the Labour were flatly denied by the Minister. Party, Fine Gael and the Green Party that it was I recommend the amendment but this debate eventually forced to establish the commission. is surreal. We are debating a Bill to enable The members of the commission were given something to take place that cannot take place. the difficult job of reporting on the electronic This is happening against a background of voting system selected within a difficult misinformation given to the House previously by timeframe, a fact to which they drew attention in the Minister. In my speech on Second Stage, I their report. The commission was also given wondered aloud what this was all about. Why was limited terms of reference and correctly drew Fianna Fa´il so anxious to get a system of attention in its report to these limitations, which electronic voting into place? We suspected at the prevented it from examining anything other than time that it was seriously flawed and now we the system of electronic voting already chosen by know from the commission report that it was the Government. This precluded it, for example, seriously flawed. We are owed an explanation from examining the issue of a voter verifiable and the commission is owed the gratitude of the audit trail and other matters. While not stated House and of the country for blowing the whistle bluntly, it broadly hints in its report that it would on such a flawed system of electronic voting. like its terms of reference changed to enable it to examine wider issues. Mr. Allen: I want to pay tribute to the In the report submitted to the Ceann commission. I asked how it could carry out its Comhairle last Friday, the commission did a work in the short time span and narrow terms of service to democracy by asserting and exercising reference that it had. Yet it did an effective job its independence and severely criticising the and upheld many of the reservations raised by proposed system of electronic voting. The report Members and experts outside the House. The echoes the criticisms contained in a document Minister should make some apologies. He got an produced by the Labour Party last autumn and opportunity on Committee Stage to apologise to ridiculed by the Minister at the time. the people whom he described as part of the anti- The Minister has many questions to answer globalisation movement. There is a letter of about his stewardship of this issue. Deputies have complaint to the Ceann Comhairle from the Irish referred to his stewardship of expenditure on the Computer Society regarding comments made by system, for which he did not have authority. At the Minister. That was one small example of the the time he committed expenditure, primary contempt that the Minister had for anyone who legislation allowing him to do so had not been enacted. The legislation in question is the Bill dared question his good judgement. His which would allow electronic voting to be used judgement is now as low as his credibility. He in the local and European Parliament elections. should be big enough to apologise, before he is Despite the fact that it had not been enacted, the forced to do so, to the Irish Computer Society for Minister proceeded to spend \52 million of his remarks in this House. There is an old cliche´ taxpayer’s money. He had no authority to do so that the best form of defence is attack. I protested and has not yet made himself accountable to the that people were being attacked who could not House. defend themselves. I hope the Ceann Comhairle The Minister repeatedly assured the House and will force the Minister to apologise. the committee examining the issue that the The events of recent months have shown a high system chosen was safe and reliable and had been level of naivete´ on the part of the Minister, thoroughly tested. It was a matter of followed by incompetence. He continued to press 6 o’clock placing our trust in him. The ahead with a system that was known by those assurances the Minister gave this who researched it to have problems. That House were blown out of the water last Friday incompetence was followed by arrogance, where when the commission published its report. The everyone who raised concerns was criticised for software has not yet been fully developed for this being Luddites and yesterday’s people. system. The commission stated that as the software version proposed for use in the An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Deputy forthcoming elections is as yet unknown, it is should stick to the amendment. 1209 Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004: 4 May 2004. Report Stage 1210

Mr. Allen: It was then followed by negligence. Mr. Cuffe: It is a time for reflection and a time The amendment should be accepted. It is to pause. The science of report writing is a sober incredible that the Government decided to press one. One must put down one’s recommendations ahead with Report Stage in spite of all that on paper quite cautiously and carefully. Section happened. It is now time for reflection and to 4.4 of the report, which lists recommendations for figure out how best to go forward. I thought the action, states quite carefully that we should be Minister should have learned his lesson last quite cautious in proceeding with electronic Friday following the publication of the report. He voting. However, the most damning part of the should have insisted that we work together on report is the page on other issues which precedes this to bring forward a safe, secure system that this section. An entire page of the report is has the people’s trust. The Minister continues to devoted to these. The language in the report is ride a bicycle with the back wheel punctured. screaming at us to stop, go back and reconsider. This is the lesson that must be learned from it. Mr. McCormack: I would say it was buckled. My party believes an independent electoral commission is necessary if we are to have Mr. Allen: He is continuing on, but this confidence restored in the electronic voting puncture will cause the wheel to buckle. He system. It is incumbent on the Minister to provide should get off the bicycle and consult all parties vision rather than continue on the route he has on how best to advance a suitable system for our taken until now. democracy. It is not too late. We must re-examine There are small parts of this legislation that the terms of reference for the commission. The need to be in place for the election in five weeks’ Taoiseach added insult to injury when he stated time. I am happy about this, but the Minister that the commission could continue with its work. should pull back and set up an all-party With its limited terms of reference, it will not be committee or procedure to allow for the kind of able to bring forward the work that is required to input evident in the submissions received and to gain the confidence of the people. feed into a review of the voting system. A total of 162 submissions were made by some of the The process must be removed from the best and brightest brains in Ireland who political realm. The Minister should relinquish his approached the issue from technical and political position as the person driving this legislation. The points of view among others. The majority of future role of an electoral commission should be these individuals advised that we should proceed examined. Why should there be so many cautiously and carefully and many stated we commissions examining different issues should have an independent electoral concerning elections? Why is there no commission. Rather than simply criticise the independent statutory commission which would Minister, and there has been enough criticism of have the terms of reference to examine him, we should move on. We need to see some boundaries, the way elections are run, and the commitment on the part of the Minister to set up issue of standards in public office? Control over an independent electoral commission. This would the management of elections should be removed start to restore confidence lost due to the fiasco from the Department. There is an ongoing of recent years. conflict of interest in the Minister’s position I hope the Minister will take on board Deputy which has been increased by his being director of Gilmore’s amendment which refers to the highest elections for Fianna Fa´il in the local elections on standards of transparency and accountability. We 11 June. can only achieve these by pulling back and re- It is time to call a halt to the waste of taxpayers’ examining the entire process. I thank the money as this will keep going otherwise. The commission for its work. It produced a carefully Minister says these machines will be viable or worded document. Each of the paragraphs on operable for the next 20 years. The cost of storage page 23 is a tremendous addition to what we of the machines while they are not in use and know about electronic voting and each needs to their future is being decided must be considered. be taken on board by the Minister’s Department. There are other major costs associated with this. I hope we will start from scratch again and I The commission stated in its report that the issues encourage the Minister to do so. concerning the storage and security of the machines, whether in use or not, must be Mr. Morgan: I support this amendment and addressed. welcome the opportunity we now have to stand It is time to call a halt and reflect. Let us all back, re-examine the legislation and consider have space. The Minister has the guarantee of my what is really needed in terms of putting in place party that if some respect is shown for the a proper voting system. If the Minister wants to Opposition parties, those parties will respond in avoid further disaster, he will consider carefully a mature way. We are not all out to play political the proposition on offering support put by a games at all times, as the Minister might think. number of people, not least of whom is Deputy We will be responsible and we can go forward Allen. I, too, would offer support in working together to bring forth an acceptable system that constructively with the Government to make sure everybody will trust. we get this right. 1211 Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004: 4 May 2004. Report Stage 1212

[Mr. Morgan.] alluded to the fact that it is the people who will I noted how this matter can cause vexation in thwart the attempts to introduce electronic voting the Chamber. When Deputy Durkan was making because the essence of power rests with them. As his point of order, he reminded me of a fellow at a result of that Da´il debate, the Government, in the back of the dance hall years ago who was the absence of the Minister who was abroad at about to throw off his coat. I refer to a reasonable the time, conceded to the establishment of the man who wants to work with the Minister to try commission that has now made its report. It is a produce something sensible rather than fight with pity the Minister was not abroad on more him. As I stated, we welcome that the occasions because we might have made more Government has abandoned its plans to progress on this matter. That was the only introduce electronic voting in the forthcoming progress made since the committee debate in election following the publication of the findings December. On 18 February, reluctantly and at of the commission on electronic voting. It was the eleventh hour, the Government conceded the surprising that the Government took so long to establishment of a commission. It was, possibly, take that decision given the overwhelming rumblings in the minor Government party which concerns that existed about the secrecy and led to that concession. Either way, we were lucky accuracy of the system it proposes to use. These to get it. concerns were voiced by a broad spectrum of The Fine Gael Party has consistently advised people, including independent software experts the Minister to ensure everything is in order from outside the House. The magnitude of the before introducing electronic voting. We said at Minister’s arrogance in this matter was on a the committee meetings that we would like to grand scale. emerge fully supportive of the Minister in its There was real concern for a while in my party introduction. However, there was too much that the Government might try to ignore the bulldozing, too many unanswered questions and commission’s findings and plough ahead with the too many disparaging remarks about the case we introduction of electronic voting in June. Again, made. I will not quote some of the remarks made I welcome the Government announcement to put by the Minister during Da´il debates about the it on hold. In the absence of a voter-verified Opposition and, particularly, the attitude of Fine paper audit trail—— Gael. Some very disparaging remarks were made for which he should have the grace to apologise. Mr. Cullen: I kept my word on the What we were saying has now beem included in commitment. the commission’s report. The conclusion of the commission’s report Mr. Morgan: The Minister made another states: commitment on Committee Stage also. In any On the basis of its review of expert reports, event, we will let him consider that himself. submissions received and other relevant The absence of a voter-verified paper audit information to date, the Commission finds that trail and the failure to publish the source code it is not in a position to recommend with the represented fatal flaws in the proposed system of requisite degree of confidence the use of the electronic voting. I hope we can start again, chosen system at elections in Ireland in June engage in consultation, solve this problem 2004. together and create what everybody wants, namely, a fair and open system for all. That is exactly what we said. The public did not have confidence in it because of its lack of Mr. McCormack: While I join other Deputies knowledge about it and the way it was bulldozed in thanking the commission for its report, through by the Government. The commission unfortunately I do not share their optimism in also said: ”In addition, the commission recognises believing we can stand back because the that the threshold of proof required— Government intends to give people space and re- Mr. Cullen: Why did the Deputy not read the examine the issue. What occurred during the next paragraph? Why did he skip it? Order of Business only reinforces my suspicion that the Government intends or wants to proceed, Mr. McCormack: I did not interrupt the irrespective of the views of the Opposition. Minister during his contributions. The Taoiseach stated during Leaders’ Questions that it was only in mid-January, when Mr. Allen: That is his problem; he will not a row started about electronic voting in America, listen. that people in this country began to question our electronic voting system. I had no opportunity to Mr. Cullen: The Deputy is only tightening the advise the Taoiseach at the time but I advise him noose around his neck. now to consult the minutes of the Joint Committee on the Environment and Local Mr. McCormack: If the Minister continues with Government of 18 December, in which he will that attitude, I despair of him doing anything to note the serious concerns outlined and ignored by correct the mess he is in. He has displayed the Minister on that occasion. On 18 February, arrogance throughout the debates on this issue. on the all-party motion on electronic voting, I It was evident at the committee meeting on 18 1213 Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004: 4 May 2004. Report Stage 1214

December when experts from both sides, have the Minister’s expertise in other matters but departmental officials and representatives of the I have enough common sense to know that when manufacturers of the equipment appeared before one is in a hole, one should stop digging and be the committee to discuss the issue and answer careful about what one says. questions. We should have been allowed to continue that meeting on the afternoon of 18 Mr. Cullen: If one is going through hell, keep December but Government members of the going. committee suddenly put a motion before the committee which resulted in the collapse of the Mr. McCormack: The Minister is entitled to his meeting ten minutes after it had resumed its opinion and I am entitled to mine. deliberations after lunch. The committee had intended to sit all day. Mr. Cullen: I agree. The contract was signed the next day, 19 December. We subsequently discovered that \20 Mr. McCormack: My opinion is clear. I have million worth of the machines had been imported listened to members of the public at meetings and two months before. other places. They wonder how one can trust, after the exposure of what happened in political An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Deputy circles over the last ten years, any Fianna Fa´il should address the amendment. Minister or Government to introduce electronic voting without believing — I am only quoting the Mr. McCormack: This concerns its essence. If general opinion — that there is some fiddle there is a statutory commission to deal with this attached to it. That is what the people are saying. and remove it from the Minister’s hands, there That is the reality of the situation in which the might be an opportunity to generate a consensus Minister finds himself with regard to electronic which would permit the introduction of voting. electronic voting. I will not waste time because the Minister is Nobody has a difficulty with electronic voting anxious to reply. If he starts well by agreeing to per se. The \5 million spent by the public amendment No. 1, a reasonable proposal, we can relations company showing people how to switch have a short Report Stage debate on this off electric lights and press buttons was irrelevant important issue. to the debate. Everybody knows how to do that. The relevant issue in the debate was the trust Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; people had in the method of voting at elections House counted and 20 Members being present, and the trust, or mainly lack of it, people had in the Government parties which were pushing this Mr. J. Higgins: The scaffold was only half built when they had to leave. It is truly farcical to have through despite the reservations of the ´ Opposition and, more importantly, people Da´il Eireann, the representative assembly of the outside politics who were experts in information nation, tied up for hours today and on further technology. They had far more knowledge than days discussing this Bill for nothing when so many us and were, and still are, extremely sceptical pressing issues should be brought before the Da´il. about this. The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Eventually, the media, the Joe Duffy Local Government is like a man at the church programme and everybody else forced the door, about to be married, but unable to get his Government to set up the commission which has bride to be to the church on time — she is locked now rejected what the Minister tried to bulldoze up in a storeroom somewhere — and yet he through. Originally, he did not even concede that insists on putting us through the ceremony legislation was necessary. He eventually anyway. Talk about being all dressed up and conceded that it was. Bit by bit, he is being forced nowhere to go. to climb down on this issue. He should be more This is a farce. A number of Deputies have careful and a little more conciliatory about the mentioned the word “surreal” and it is true. In valid points being made about the mess he is in. Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland, the Cheshire There is an old saying that when one is in a hole, cat begins to disappear in the course of the story one should stop digging. If the Minister would and all that is eventually left is a grin. The reason stop digging, it might be more helpful to the cause for this Bill has disappeared; it has melted before he is promoting. our faces. All we are left with is the Bill and another bill to the taxpayer for \50 million. It is Mr. Cullen: I prefer Churchill: “When you’re incredible. We could debate a disability Bill or a going through hell, keep going.” Bill controlling land prices. There are a number of issues that Da´il E´ ireann could debate Mr. Allen: However, the Minister is now profitably. However, sitting for days on end to beyond redemption. deal with a matter that is now irrelevant as far as the local and European elections in June are Mr. Morgan: We do not need Churchill. concerned is outrageous. It is becoming characteristic of this Minister Mr. McCormack: Who am I to advise the that he is increasingly involved with matters that Minister? Perhaps he knows better. I might not turn out to be posthumous. He has wasted \1.5 1215 Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004: 4 May 2004. Report Stage 1216

[Mr. J. Higgins.] testing of the counting software carried out by million on an advertising campaign called “Race experts retained by the Commission using Against Waste” based on fraudulent impressions voting information from pilot tests during being given to frighten the public into paying his previous elections in Ireland confirms that it double taxes. If we had any effective leadership accurately counted the votes recorded at these in Government, the Minister would not be sitting elections; where he is at present. We would have someone parallel testing of the counting software else who would be trying to withdraw this Bill as programme carried out by experts retained by gracefully as possible. I agree with the Deputy the Commission using a large number of Gilmore’s amendment that “AN COIMISIU´ N sample data sets and a similar counting UM VO´ TA´ IL LEICTREONACH” should be programme developed for the Commission inserted in the title. confirms that it can accurately count votes in Nı´l creidiu´ int ar bith ag baint anois leis an most situations, including unusual or difficult mBille seo. Ta´ se´ do chreidte go bhfuil Da´il electoral situations; E´ ireann sa´ite inniu, agus go mbeidh se´ arı´s laethanta eile, ag de´anamh dı´ospo´ ireachta ar rud miniature end-to-end testing of the system nach dtarlo´ idh — b’fhe´idir nach dtarlo´ idh se´ carried out by experts retained by the ariamh — nuair ata´ rudaı´ tromchu´ iseacha eile ar Commission confirms that it can accurately cheart go mbe´adh an Da´il to´ gtha suas leo. Ta´ an record and count the votes in the context of vo´ ta´il leictreonach curtha ar ceal dos na multiple simultaneous elections. toghcha´in a´itiu´ la agus don toghcha´n Eorpach ach They are pretty definitive on much of the testing ta´ an tAire go fo´ ill ag iarraidh an Bille seo a bhru´ the commission carried out. The report made trı´danDa´il. Ba cheart deireadh a chur leis an little or no criticism of the machines. The ra´ime´is seo agus gno´ e´igin a mbe´adh tairbhe leis do mhuintir na hE´ ireann a chur os comhair na commission seemed to concentrate on the Da´la. software, the counting——

Mr. Cullen: I join my colleagues in thanking Mr. Allen: The Minister should look at the commission for its work. It vindicated the section 4. view I expressed to the commission that its members would be very independent in the Mr. Cullen: I am reading from it. It is all about exercise of their duties. Everybody would accept the counting software. It is not about the that they have done that, which I welcome. The machines. report is an important contribution to the debate on this issue and in many respects is very helpful. Mr. Allen: Even last week on Committee It is important that people read this report in its Stage, we asked about the software and were told totality. I would not like to put on record the all the testing had been done. number of times I have read the report. Mr. Cullen: Yes. Mr. Gilmore: The Minister could not believe it the first time. Mr. Allen: We were misled.

Mr. Cullen: I have read it in great detail to try Mr. Cullen: An incredible amount of testing to understand the issues the commission has has been done. raised. I would like to put on the record the paragraph that Deputy McCormack left out, Mr. Allen: We asked if all the software testing which is singularly significant. The commission was done and were told it had been done. went out of its way to ensure it was upfront in its executive summary by stating: Mr. Cullen: An incredible amount of testing The Commission wishes to emphasise that its has been done. My only regret—— conclusion is not based on any finding that the system will not work, but on the finding that it Mr. Allen: We were misled last week. has not been proven at this time to the satisfaction of the Commission that it will work. Mr. Cullen: I am trying to make a point. If the Deputy does not want me to make it, that is fair This is where we lie at the moment. As other enough, but I want to make the point. Members placed much on the record, I also wish to put on the record the commission’s own Mr. Allen: We should get the Minister’s party findings as there is an important reason it did this. members to hear this. The commission’s report states: testing carried out by experts retained by the An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Minister Commission on a significant sample of the should be allowed to make his point without voting machines deployed to returning officers interruption. confirms that the system can accurately and consistently record voter preferences; Mr. Allen: I call a quorum. 1217 Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004: 4 May 2004. Report Stage 1218

Mr. Cullen: Perhaps the Deputy does not want made. However, the commission’s net point is me to respond. I wanted to answer a specific that it wants time to perform testing of the kind point he raised. which has already been carried out. The most significant end-to-end testing of the entire system Mr. Allen: It is ra´ime´is, as Deputy Joe was carried out in real time in a real live scenario Higgins said. by its use in a number of constituencies in the previous general election. It was used in a further Mr. Cullen: The media can see quite clearly number of constituencies during a referendum. where the Opposition is going with this debate. However, I will do my best. Mr. Allen: The Minister is deluding himself now. Mr. Allen: The Minister’s problem is that he is too concerned about the media. Mr. Cullen: I have tried to listen carefully to what every Member of the Opposition has said. Is An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: I call Deputy the Opposition saying now that it wishes to stand Gilmore. down the commission? Do I understand this correctly? Mr. Cullen: I am sorry. I thought Deputy Allen had called for a quorum, which was why I sat Mr. Allen: Does the Minister want an answer? down. Mr. Cullen: Yes. Mr. Allen: That is the Minister’s problem. He is too concerned about the media. An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Deputy Allen will have an opportunity to speak. We are on Mr. Cullen: I thought that was what the Report Stage. Deputy said. Mr. Cullen: I will wait a minute. I ask the Mr. Allen: I wish the Minister’s colleagues question on the basis of my understanding from could hear his ra´ime´is. what all the Deputies have said that the Opposition wants the commission to be stood An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Minister down. According to Opposition Members, the should be allowed to make his point without commission has done its work and a different interruption. type of body should be established. If I am right in saying that, I need it to be confirmed. Mr. Gilmore: I thought the Minister was packing it in. Mr. Allen: I will answer the Minister.

Mr. Cullen: I was not. I thought Deputy Allen Mr. Gilmore: The Minister is moving the had called for a quorum and am pretty sure my goalposts. hearing is not deceiving me. Mr. Cullen: If the Opposition is not saying what Mr. Allen: Would the Minister like me to call I have outlined, it answers the question. for a quorum so that he can take a rest? Mr. Gilmore: The Minister should stick with Mr. Cullen: The Deputy is quite correct. It is the issue. an interesting point which needs to be teased out with the commission. On the point the Mr. Cullen: Deputy Gilmore implies he is not commission raised about the error which it said saying that. That is fair enough. As the occurred in the machine, the only one of which I Opposition knows, we must pursue this was aware was the one about which the legislation as we guaranteed the commission that Department informed the commission which was we would place it on a statutory footing. This Bill an infinitesimal difference on a decimal point. provides the framework to accomplish that. The commission was informed that had been While it sets out a framework for the use of corrected. As I understand it, it had no bearing electronic voting in all circumstances, the Bill in any real sense on the distribution of votes. We does not specify the type of system to be used. must keep matters in perspective when Equally, the legislation deals with matters considering exactly what has been said. That is imminent in the local elections, including the important to record. Equally, it is fine by me if eligibility or otherwise of local government the commission rightly says it would have employees to stand. It deals also with the issue of preferred if all testing had finished a month ago. personation with polling cards which I thought all The commission is of the opinion that we should Members wished to see addressed. I am happy to not be testing this close to the elections, which is deal with those issues. That is why we are here to a criticism I accept. I accept also that the debate the Bill. Members should be clear that a commission’s view differs from that of the guarantee was given to the commission and that Department that one should continue to test. I we wish to fulfil it. The commission feels it should will not argue a reasonable point which is fairly be placed on a statutory footing and the 1219 Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004: 4 May 2004. Report Stage 1220

[Mr. Cullen.] in section 4.5 of the commission’s report. The Government has no difficulty with making the authors of the Labour Party report made four or necessary provisions. five particular recommendations, one of which For the sake of clarity, I wish to record that I was that there should be a full end-to-end test made an inadvertent remark about the Irish of the system. This is precisely the same as the Computer Society. I had not intended to cause commission’s recommendation of an independent offence and I wish to withdraw the remark I end-to-end test. The Labour Party report made. recommended that the introduction and Amendment No. 1 is technical and seeks to operation of electronic voting should be the include additional text in the long title which responsibility of an independent body. In essence, makes reference to the commission on electronic that is what is contained in the second, third and voting. The amendment is not considered fourth bullet points of the commission’s necessary. The title of the commission is included recommendation. I will return to these points in both languages in section 17 of the Bill. The when I respond to the Minister. parliamentary counsel is the expert in drawing up the Long Titles of Bills. The Long Title of the Mr. Allen: I am quite flabbergasted listening to Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004 was prepared the Minister. I thought he would come to the by the counsel and is considered satisfactory. On House and show a little flexibility towards the that basis, I ask Deputy Gilmore to withdraw his amendment. views of the Opposition. As I said earlier, I am quite flexible in dealing with some of the major Mr. Gilmore: I find it remarkable that the issues. The Minister quoted selectively from the Minister has shifted ground. The original purpose commission’s report and I do not know what of this Bill was to introduce electronic voting on point he was making. The Minister accused me of 11 June. That is the reason it was hurriedly looking through the wrong end of the telescope. brought to the House. Time was taken up on My point is that the Minister is looking down the Second Stage which the House could more barrel of a gun in terms of his position. He was usefully have used to consider legislation to quite insulting when we raised the core issue of a address tenants rights, the price of land and verifiable paper audit trail. houses and the other urgent, inadequately dealt with issues which come under the remit of the Mr. Cullen: That is not an issue. Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. The Government’s hurry to Mr. Allen: It is an issue as far as I am introduce electronic voting was the reason the concerned. On page 23 of the commission’s Bill was on Committee Stage last week. The ink report, it is certainly an issue. The commission was hardly dry on amendments made on says that although they do not fall strictly within Committee Stage before the Bill was brought its terms of reference, the following observations back to the House on Report Stage. The Minister have a bearing on the successful implementation is now telling the House that the Bill is not really of the system at elections in Ireland. According to about electronic voting. He says it is about the commission, the system cannot accommodate putting the commission on a statutory footing. voters who wish to register an abstention and it As far as the Minister was concerned, the does not have a voter-verifiable audit trail for commission was always incidental to the entire voters. This trail is argued by many to reassure issue. It was an afterthought which was voters that their votes have been correctly established under pressure from the Opposition. recorded. It was given limited terms of reference with which The Minister is repeating his mistakes this to carry out a difficult task in a limited timeframe. evening. While the Government will maintain the It must be acknowledged that the commission has commission, its terms of reference will remain done an outstanding job in those circumstances. narrow. I ask the Minister to show his hand and The Minister relies on the fact that the commission said it was reasonably happy with the tell the House exactly how he thinks we can go voting machine hardware. The criticisms we made forward in the quagmire he has got us into. I of the system had little or nothing to do with the would say also that the absence of a verifiable hardware. Our criticisms mainly involved the audit trail significantly raises the standard of software and its possible vulnerability. proof for a positive opinion. I and many others are concerned about the \4.5 million wasted on Mr. Cullen: This is the count software. this ludicrous programme and the Minister’s statement that it is as simple as “one, two, three”. Mr. Gilmore: The criticisms involved both the Nothing is as simple as that. Will the Minister software of the machines and counting system inform the House how much of the \4.5 million software. The report published by the Labour has been spent? Will he use the remainder to Party last autumn was rubbished by the Minister encourage people to register to vote—— because its authors were members of the party and declared themselves to be such. The Labour An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: That matter is not Party report identified the very issues referred to relevant to the amendment. 1221 Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004: 4 May 2004. Report Stage 1222

Mr. Allen: ——and vote on 11 June? The An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Minister has problem of getting people out to vote is a core two minutes remaining. issue. Instead of throwing good money after bad, the Minister should ensure the remainder is used Mr. Cullen: The money invested in the system in positive way. is capital money. The system has a 20 year life span. I have no doubt, as I am sure everyone Mr. Cullen: On the Deputy’s final question, less believes, that we will meet the requirements and than half the amount remains with \1 million of concerns raised. We will work with all concerned the total budget being set aside for use in on the recommendations to ensure the system can encouraging people to vote. The Government will and will be used in the future. proceed with that aspect. I welcome Deputy Allen’s support in that regard. We should try, if Mr. Allen: It is a little like a person with no nothing else, to get people out to vote. licence buying a car. He cannot drive it. Many of the issues contained in the report need to be carefully studied. I do not wish at this point, Mr. Cullen: It is probably the most in the context of this debate, to go any further sophisticated electronic voting system in the than I have. That may be for others to do. The world although it may take people time to commission raised two clear issues. It needs more grapple with that fact. time to repeat testing undertaken by international bodies. That is fair enough. It that Mr. Allen: It cannot be used. is what it wishes to do, that is fine with me. It will be given the time to do the tests. It also states it Mr. Cullen: No, the commission did not say has not had enough time to do the tests and the that. Government is willing to give it more time. The commission’s criticism of the system Mr. Allen: It cannot be used in June. almost exclusively concerns the counting software. It questions how it is broken into. I do An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Order, please. not wish to be flippant but my understanding is that the concerns raised relate to the extreme Mr. Cullen: The commission goes out of its way circumstance of an unknown person walking into to make the opposite point. a count centre filled with candidates, party colleagues, returning officers and presiding Mr. Allen: The system is not being used in officers, walk through all those people, take over June. a computer in full view of everybody, hack into the system with the approval of everyone Mr. Cullen: Not alone does it state what I standing by and, having achieved that magnificent quoted earlier, it states that it fully accepts that feat, sunder the election results. I ask people for the standard of proof to give a positive opinion would be far higher than the standard of proof balance in this debate. The chance of that sort of required to give a negative one and so it has scenario happening is, in my view, is of opted for the lower standard. That is fair enough. incredulous proportions. The commission needs more time to conclude its investigation of the system. I have no argument Mr. Allen: The Minister is trying to rubbish with that and never had. It does not, however, the commission. mean there is anything wrong with the system or that any of the tests undertaken by national or Mr. Cullen: That said, it is possible; anything is international bodies are not accurate. All the possible. However, we need balance in this tests carried out by the commission came up debate. The issues raised must be carefully 100% perfect. studied and responded to if we are to understand The question raised in terms of the count them. My Department is unclear about what system and its security is a serious one but I exactly is meant by a number of the issues in the would like to know exactly what the commission commission’s report. Obviously we are anxious to means in terms of accessing and how one would understand and correct the issues. access the system. The best thing the Da´il and Deputies have raised broader issues, many of Seanad can do, now that we have an independent which I have views on although I am not in a commission in place, is to give it what it wants position to state them now. Having listened to and allow it to continue its work. We should put Deputies, I am between a rock and a hard place. it on the statutory footing requested by it and On the one hand, people want the commission to guaranteed by Government. I presume everyone complete its work and, on the other, they do not. in the Houses of the Oireachtas wanted the It is clear that we need to provide the commission commission to be placed on a statutory footing. the space and time guaranteed to it. That is We should now allow it the time and space to essential. I have no doubt that if I had come to complete its work. the House having said I was withdrawing this Bill and abandoning it, I would have been savaged for Mr. Allen: Will the Government give it a preventing the commission completing its work. broader terms of reference? 1223 Hospital Waiting Lists: 4 May 2004. Motion 1224

Mr. Cullen: I do not have a problem in that to complete its testing, I would also like that regard. Deputy Allen raised interesting questions, testing to be taken on board. as did Deputy Gilmore. Now that this debate has moved on, I have similar views. There are issues Debate adjourned. coming down the tracks in terms of the conduct and administration of elections in this country. I Messages from Select Committees. am open to moving to a different system. I do not have a difficulty with that idea and am quite An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Select willing to engage in such a process. However, a Committee on Health and Children has shorter timeframe is involved. We owe it to the completed its consideration of the following commission, having established it, to allow it to Revised Estimate for Public Services for the year complete its work. That is a reasonable request. ending 31 December 2004: Vote 33 — The Deputy raised other issues on which I have Department of Health and Children. an open mind. I have no difficulty with them. The Select Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women’s Rights has completed its An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Minister has consideration of the Criminal Justice (Joint exceeded his time. Investigation Teams) Bill 2003 [Seanad] and has made amendments thereto. Mr. Cullen: Everybody had two minutes in which to respond. I do not wish to challenge the Private Members’ Business. Chair but it was my understanding that it was only the proposer of the amendment who had two ———— minutes to speak. I am trying to respond to all Deputies who spoke on this matter. Hospital Waiting Lists: Motion. The issues raised are important. I wish to put on the record of the House that, in the broader Ms McManus: I move: context of where the future may lie, I have an That Da´il E´ ireann: open mind. In fact, I have more than an open mind. My views on this issue probably coincide — notes that this week marks the deadline with Deputies on all sides of the House. That was for the ending of hospital waiting lists always my view, but I was charged with a specific following the commitment given by the responsibility under particular terms of reference Taoiseach, the Minister for Finance and into which, as Deputies will be aware, the the Minister for Health and Children commission had a direct input. The terms of on 6 May 2002 that, if returned to reference it received were, as I understand it, office, they would “permanently end those it requested. waiting lists in our hospitals within two We should allow this report to be put to bed years through a combination of bed fairly and squarely in terms of the issues about capacity, primary care, secondary care which the commission has raised questions. and targeted reform initiatives”; However, the commission is quite clear that it has — deplores the failure of the Government not produced findings at this stage. We are to honour the commitment made and holding a debate as if on the basis of substantial the cynicism displayed in making a findings, but there are no such findings as of yet. promise that they clearly had no The commission is clear in pointing that out. intention of honouring; Mr. McCormack: Why then is the system not — condemns the continuing unacceptable being used? waiting lists which at September 2003, the latest date for which figures are Mr. Cullen: At the time, I said, and the available, showed more than 27,000 Taoiseach supported me, that if the commission people waiting for treatment, with more did not give a clear and green light to the system, than 9,000 waiting for more than a year; we would not pursue it. — calls for the immediate introduction of targeted initiatives to ensure a prompt Mr. McCormack: That is fine. reduction in the numbers and end the suffering and distress of so many people Mr. Cullen: The commission has clearly stated awaiting treatment, including: it needs more time to undertake testing. I do not take issue with that. I would have preferred if all — opening all hospital beds currently the independent testing that had been done was closed or under threat of closure; alluded to in this report and given some credence. — ensuring a full nursing complement in The bodies which undertook the international acute hospitals with waiting lists; testing, all of which was made available, are substantive international bodies. There is no — tackling the crisis in accident and doubt in that regard. In allowing the commission emergency departments; 1225 Hospital Waiting Lists: 4 May 2004. Motion 1226

— taking measures to relieve “bed for treatment or how many have gone into debt blocking”; to pay for private care. However, we know that those described as postponing treatment at their — providing additional new hospital beds own request still, undoubtedly, need treatment and commissioning new units awaiting and it is dishonest for anyone, including the opening; and Minister, to try to claim otherwise. — enhancing community care. The Minister for Health and Children again I would like to share my time with Deputy makes fraudulent claims when he says health Sherlock. strategy targets are being met. The target set in the health strategy was that, by the end of 2002, An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Is that agreed? no adult would be waiting more than 12 months. Agreed. We know from today’s figures that 20% of patients, approximately 6,000, are still waiting Ms McManus: I am concerned that the Minister more than 12 months and that others are waiting for Health and Children has not bothered to even longer. No massaging of the figures by the come to the House. He has no difficulty Minister can disguise that fact. Many of these appearing on television and spinning yarns to the people are elderly and infirm. They need and public, but he is not willing to come to the House deserve the best health care the country can to debate the issues which are within his remit afford. and on which he has failed so abysmally. Before the last general election, the Taoiseach This motion is tabled by the Labour Party with promised that, come this week, no patient would the sole purpose of ensuring that the thousands be left on any hospital waiting list anywhere. The of patients who have been left on hospital waiting Fianna Fa´il manifesto declared: “Fianna Fa´il will lists can finally get the treatment to which they permanently end waiting lists in our hospitals are entitled and the justice they deserve. They within two years through a combination of bed have been subjected to the most cruel deception capacity, primary care, secondary care and by the Taoiseach and the Minister for Health and targeted reform initiatives.” This was a solemn Children who promised an end to the long wait undertaking made to the people. The Taoiseach and who promptly reneged on their word. said health would be the number one spending The latest published figures show that 27,308 priority even if, in his own words, the economy adults and children are waiting to access the falters. The public now knows the truth. It knows health care they need and 20% of adult patients it was swindled by Fianna Fa´il and that the are waiting for more than a year. Many thousands Taoiseach made an empty, dishonest, fraudulent more are on the hidden waiting list, waiting for promise. The Fianna Fa´il Minister for Health, an appointment to see a specialist so that they Deputy Martin, promised 200,000 new medical can then join those already on the hospital cards and 3,000 new beds. These commitments waiting lists. All these people know that if they were also bogus. The Fianna Fa´il Minister for could afford health insurance, they would not be Finance, Deputy McCreevy, promised there forced to wait, but because they are public would be no cutbacks. He said: “No cutbacks patients, they are stuck and the Government whatsoever are being planned, secretly or deliberately denies them the access to health care otherwise.” That promise turned out to be they need. spurious also. Immediately after the election a In a panic response to this motion the Minister Government memo outlining \900 million in for Health and Children has released a statement cutbacks was issued to the Cabinet. to try to cover up the extent of his failure. The Fianna Fa´il has people to collude with it on its figures published at the end of September 2003 project of misleading the public. The Progressive showed 27,212 people waiting. Those published Democrats Party has supported, every step of the today for the end of December 2003 show an way, what has been proposed at Cabinet. The increase to 27,318. Government turned its back on the illness and In an attempt to disguise the extent of its suffering of thousands of people waiting for failure the Government has handed responsibility health care and jettisoned its commitment. It for the issue to the national treatment purchase raised medical charges, instituted a staff embargo fund. It, in turn, has invented a new validation and made savage cutbacks that targeted the most system which as far as one can gather — it is all vulnerable. For 12 months before the general very murky and unclear — is a comparison of the election of 2002, the money tap was turned on actual waiting list numbers and those presenting and public expenditure increased by 27%. Once for national purchase treatment fund treatment. the election was won, the tap was turned off and The shortfall of 4,500 is not explained in any the splurge ended along with the hopes of coherent fashion. We do not know if patients who thousands of hospital patients. So steeped in are described as not available for treatment are cynicism is the Government that it is now unavailable because they are too sick to avail of preparing for a second time to manipulate the care, how many have died while waiting in vain health needs of sick people to win votes in the 1227 Hospital Waiting Lists: 4 May 2004. Motion 1228

[Ms McManus.] so unreliable it had to be abandoned. A run-up to the local and European elections. It is ministerial ego trip became the priority instead again planning to turn on the money tap for of health. Here was a voting system that nobody electoral advantage. wanted, nobody requested and ultimately nobody The Labour Party is having this debate so that, could stand over. This resulted in \50 million this time, patients will not be made to suffer. We being flushed down the drain by an irresponsible, will not tolerate the brand of Fianna Fa´il trickery arrogant Cabinet headed up by a man who that had Ray Burke transporting trees into a promised to abolish hospital waiting lists within newly built housing estate for the duration of a two years. by-election in Dublin West. Once the votes were We now know because officials from the counted, the trees vanished. The Labour Party is Department of Health and Children have spelled determined to ensure that Fianna Fa´il and the it out in black and white that this \50 million Progressive Democrats do not pull the same stunt would have opened up a whole range of new twice. This is why we have tabled this Private medical facilities and that had this been done, a Members’ motion: to hold the Government to great amount of suffering and sickness would account and to ensure that those in need of health have been alleviated. For example, the care can access the care they need through the Government could have opened new and locked doors of medical units that have been expanded accident and emergency departments callously kept closed by the Government, and at Cork University Hospital, Naas General through the introduction of effective measures to Hospital, James Connolly Memorial Hospital and deal with the crisis. Roscommon County Hospital. Instead these units This week, a confidential Government aide- continue to lie idle. memoire was leaked to The Sunday Tribune.It In the meantime the crisis in the emergency sets out the stark reality that health has never services has deepened in the past two years. been a priority for the Government. In fact, the Hundreds and hundreds of patients have been needs of patients have been cruelly and laid on trolleys or sat on chairs in accident and deliberately set aside. Despite the urgent need to emergency departments across the country. expand capacity within the health service, the Patients have been treated on occasion in the car Government decided to spend the money park of Beaumont Hospital. On 5 February 2004, elsewhere. It chose other priorities. According to in an unprecedented move, St. James’s Hospital the aide-memoire: was forced to invoke its major incident plan because clinicians were simply overwhelmed by Some \400 million capital funding has been the demand. In Wexford Hospital, the situation invested in a number of new health facilities was described as chaotic. that are ready for equipping, commissioning The Irish Nurses’ Organisation itemised the and opening. Many have been completed and overcrowding in accident and emergency have been waiting to open across a range of departments, stating the number of patients health care programmes. With the introduction waiting on trolleys and chairs on one day as of the existing level of service bases for follows: Tallaght Hospital, 42 patients; Naas conducting the Estimates process, funding was Hospital, 37 patients; the Mater Hospital, 30 not provided for the opening of new units in patients; Beaumont Hospital, 28 patients; St. either 2003 or 2004. If these units are not James’s Hospital, 28 patients; James Connolly opened in 2004 the investment that has already Memorial Hospital, 23 patients; St. Vincent’s been made in the units will not be properly Hospital, 13 patients; St. Colmcille’s Hospital, six utilised. It should be noted that there is an patients — a total of 207 patients on trolleys and ongoing cost to the Exchequer in maintaining chairs. On the same day in Limerick Hospital, 33 completed and vacant facilities by way of patients were waiting on trolleys and chairs. In security, depreciation and other non-pay costs, Cork University Hospital there were 18 people for example, heating. waiting and in the Mercy Hospital, Cork another In other words, it is deliberate Government 11 patients were waiting in this way. That is the policy that is keeping these new health facilities true human cost of the failure of the Minister for closed. Not only are patients paying the price for Health and Children, Deputy Martin. this policy, the taxpayers are also paying the cost In December 2001, in the run up to the of unnecessary security and maintenance in Taoiseach’s solemn promise to the people, 26,126 unopened facilities. were waiting for hospital treatment and in the Being in Government is about making choices. most recent figure, it has risen to more than Instead of choosing to spend money to alleviate 27,000. Hospital units have been constructed and the suffering, pain and illness of those on hospital completed that would have eased this pressure waiting lists, as it promised it would, the but are being deliberately kept closed. According Government chose to spend the money to a Government aide-memoire, 220 new beds elsewhere. They squandered an equivalent could have been added to the current bed amount on an electronic voting system that was numbers, as well as increased theatre capacity for 1229 Hospital Waiting Lists: 4 May 2004. Motion 1230 example at Our Lady’s Hospital for Sick before the House tonight as being the outline of Children, Crumlin, Limerick Regional Hospital, the underlying problems in the acute hospital South Tipperary Hospital, Clonmel. There could services, in particular. This is in direct contrast to have been increased capacity in intensive care, the smug assurances given many times in this coronary care and high dependency units for House by both the Minister for Health and example in Portiuncula, University College Children the Taoiseach and the Ta´naiste on the Hospital Galway, James Connolly Memorial state of the health service. Not only does the Hospital and at Naas Hospital. We could have memo spell out the real and parlous state of the developed cancer services in Cork and Galway health service, it reveals the mendacity of a and opened new hospital buildings at St. James’s Government that deliberately prevented people Hospital, James Connolly Memorial Hospital and gaining access to the new facilities that have been Naas Hospital and we could have fully constructed under the National Development commissioned a new trauma and elective Plan but have been kept closed under the Fianna orthopaedic service at Mayo General Hospital. I Fa´il and Progressive Democrats Government. have not mentioned Mullingar Hospital, because The memo states that \400 million worth of my colleague, Deputy Penrose will deal with it facilities are lying idle across the country and if tomorrow, but it is probably the longest they were opened they “would have an standing scandal. immediate impact on relieving pressure on It is clear the Government had within its services such as acute hospitals, services for older powers the capability to address the needs of people, mental health services, services for critically ill patients and patients waiting for persons with intellectual disability or autism and elective procedures. It could have done what it adult homelessness”. promised, introduced improved bed capacity, We are calling on the Government to open primary and secondary care and targeted reform these units immediately, not because there is an initiatives. What did it do? The Cabinet spent \50 election in the offing but because patients needs million on e-voting machinery and \15 million on access to health care and they have been denied an equestrian centre. It looked after the horses this access for too long. We are also seeking in and machines, but forgot about people. The the motion that all hospital beds currently closed Government refused to spend the money on or under threat of closure be re-opened. Earlier opening health care facilities as they came on this year, the Eastern Regional Health Authority stream. Let us be clear, all the Cabinet, including promised to open 196 acute and non-acute beds. the Taoiseach, the Minister for Finance and the Will the Minister for Health and Children tell us Minister for Health and Children bear how many have been opened and the current responsibility for what has happened and what number of closed beds across the country? In has not been done. recent days I have received a complaint that The Labour Party raised the crisis in our health approximately 30 to 40 beds will be closed in service on many occasions in the House. Our Tralee Hospital for a number of months for view is expressed in the motion before the House “budgetary reasons”. How can the Minister stand and is vindicated by the contents of the leaked over such closures? departmental memo which states: It is bizarre and perverse that on the one hand, The challenges currently facing the acute Government policy is supposed to be committed hospital system include shortage of beds, to providing new beds, while at the same time unacceptably long waiting times, long delays in hospital beds are closed to save on running costs. A & E departments, frequent cancellations of In the latest figures, it is estimated that 50,000 elective admissions, inappropriate occupancy bed-days were lost in the first six months of 2003. of acute hospital beds, unacceptably high bed When money was allocated to re-open beds to occupancy levels. deal with this problem particularly in the Eastern Regional Health Authority area, another aspect One issue that we would have added to the list is of bed closures, the lack of nursing staff, suddenly the unequal treatment between public and became the issue. According to the national private patients. It skews the treatment that survey on nursing resources, published by the people can access when they need it. Treatment health services employers agency in February is not delivered on the basis of need, but on the 2004, there are still 675 nursing vacancies. In one basis of income. case alone, there are 59 vacant posts in Beaumont Belatedly I welcome the Minister for Health Hospital, one of the largest and busiest hospitals and Children. I know Deputy Martin has had a in the country where the total number of nurses busy schedule, spinning yarns to the public, but fell in 2003. In all acute hospitals that have people will not be fooled by the gloss he is able waiting lists, a full nursing complement must be to put on the bad figures. guaranteed and it is up to the Government to The aide-memoire prepared by Government introduce the necessary measures to meet that officials is substantially the same as the Labour target. The dedication and the hard work of the Party has articulated and repeated in the motion existing nursing staff cannot be relied upon 1231 Hospital Waiting Lists: 4 May 2004. Motion 1232

[Ms McManus.] announcement by the Minister for Finance, that indefinitely to prop up a failing system. There will people with less need were prioritised over be no nursing graduates next year due to the people with more need for purely cynical introduction of a new nursing degree programme. political reasons. Surely that prospect is sufficient to focus the I have no doubt that when the Minister for Government on the gravity of the situation. Health and Children responds he will go through There is a need to tackle the blocking of acute his usual rigmarole, explaining how more money beds by patients who could and should be in is being put into the system and everything is rehabilitation beds. Again, the Government hunky-dory. No doubt he will refer to his primary promised much but did not deliver. The PPP care strategy, but he will not tell us the fully story. nursing units never materialised. There are He will not admit that seven of the ten primary hundreds of private nursing home beds vacant, care projects are bogged down, funding has dried yet waiting lists for rehabilitation places and to a trickle and the entire process appears to be budgetary pressures determine an inappropriate going nowhere. use of acute beds in our hospitals. We have had, and continue to have, a Minister The motion seeks that a real emphasis be put for Health and Children who has not dealt with on community and primary care. Regrettably, the the real issues in the health service, real issues record shows that, far from supporting a policy that impact on patients. The record is clear. shift towards primary care, all we have got from Thousands are still waiting for hospital care. the Minister, Deputy Martin, and the Minister for There are fewer medical cards and greater Finance, Deputy McCreevy, is greater inequality injustice at primary care level. New hospital and unfairness at that level of care. Today only wards and operating theatres are locked and 27.7% of people have medical cards on income existing beds are closed. When a need has gained grounds. This is the lowest level since the GMS his attention, the Minister’s response has been to card was introduced in 1972. This country has commission yet another report. Approximately become wealthy in the meantime, yet we cannot 147 reports, commissions and task forces have ensure that people on modest and low incomes come out of his Department since 1997. I heard are protected in the way they were in 1972. In today that the Government is producing \1 1977, almost 39% of the population was covered million worth of reports each week. It would be by the GMS scheme. The income limits rise with interesting to know if that is true because I have the consumer price index but not with wages or it on good authority. social welfare rates. Fewer and fewer low paid I suspect that the Minister is blinded by the workers have medical cards, yet medical costs are flow of expert advice he had unleashed. He no increasing much faster than the CPI. GPs’ charges longer sees the needs of patients. Today he is have increased and most of the increases are the confronted by an increasing number of patients direct responsibility of the Minister for Health on hospital waiting lists and his response has been and Children. He increased costs in the drugs to manipulate the figures and make false claims. refund scheme, accident and emergency charges It is as if nothing has changed. The only and in-patient hospital care. difference is that in the meantime the plans have One family doctor said at the recent IMO become more grandiose, more ambitious and conference that they have all seen people putting more out of touch with what people who are their own lives and the lives of their family and trying to access health care need. This is evident children at risk because they cannot afford to see in his whole approach to local hospitals and his a doctor. What kind of legacy is that? What policy of closing accident and emergency Minister for Health and Children can stand over a departments. situation where people cannot access their family Concerns are now being raised about the doctor because of the cost of doing so? No other Minister’s approach by health professionals, European country would tolerate this situation, people working in the health service who have yet the Minister can blithely continue on as if a knowledge that none of us here have. They are promise to provide medical cards is something increasingly worried about his neglect of the nuts which simply exists to be broken. The Minister and bolts which are now slipping off the for Health and Children promised 200,000 new programme, particularly proposed legislation. medical cards prior to the last general election. The Government can no longer give a timeframe Since then the number of medical cards has for such vital and basic legislation as the medical decreased. There are 100,000 fewer medical cards practitioners Bill or the nurses Bill. All this has in the system than previously. It is a scandal that been put aside while the Minister concentrates on low income families, living in one of the his major health reform project. wealthiest countries in Europe, cannot afford to He has no answer to the serious concerns being bring their children to the doctor. raised by health professionals about the working Another IMO member said, in reference to the time directive to be implemented on 1 August. debacle regarding the over 70’s deal which the The Minister has made it clear that he will not Minister bungled following the budget seek a derogation of the working time directive, 1233 Hospital Waiting Lists: 4 May 2004. Motion 1234 and the deadline will be met. He has made it clear We must not forget the human cost if this that he will not appoint new junior hospital report is implemented because it will make it doctors. He has also made it clear that no extra difficult for people living in the areas west and consultants will be in place on this date. The north of Mallow to visit relatives and friends if question that has been asked by people working services are moved to Cork. This applies within the service, including doctors, nurses and particularly to older people. There is a distinct managers, is how will this be done. The obvious advantage to patients when they are healing if way the directive requirements will be met is by their families are in close proximity to the reducing out-patient clinics and operating theatre hospital. That is what is described as a hours, which means reducing patient care. sociological argument although I do not know Too often patients have to pay the price for whether the Minister knows anything about it. failure of Government policy. It appears that we Consultants, general practitioners, nurses and are again facing patient suffering and patient pain the general public have opposed the Hanly being prolonged unnecessarily because the proposals. If they were implemented nationally, Minister for Health and Children is unable to the current network of 38 general hospitals would meet the basic needs to put in place the patient- be reduced to 12 providing services 24 hours per friendly and efficient measures sought in the day, seven days per week. The centralisation of motion before us tonight. The motion seeks to acute care would mean that many patients would ensure that the crises in accident and emergency have to travel much longer distances than at departments are tackled, that bed blocking is present to get to hospital. The Hanly report reduced significantly, new beds are put in place, proposes a paramedic ambulance service to cope existing beds are maintained and that people, with this problem. However, that is not including children, who get sick know they can acceptable because we have plenty of experience see their family doctor and no longer put theirs of delays in ambulance services. or their children’s lives at risk because the I have asked the Minister many times to Government has failed to deliver on a promise provide for radiologists, geriatricians and a CT made to the Irish people. scanner in Mallow. This has been ongoing since The Minister for Health and Children is 2001. I am well aware that the chairman of continuing to spin as best he can, even though he Comhairle na nOspide´al is a consultant at Cork is running out of credibility. University Hospital and is a member of the Hanly group. Therefore he knows what is required. Mr. F. McGrath: He should resign. However, the body has begun to downgrade the hospital by stealth. He knew what was envisaged Ms McManus: The promises will still be made by the Hanly report and, consequently, no during this election campaign. The dishonesty will appointments have been made of a radiologist or persist but there is one difference to which I look obstetrician and no provision has been made for forward. This time the people will not be fooled. a CT scanner. Mr. Sherlock: This motion deplores the failure I hope the Minister’s officials will listen to my of the Government to honour the commitments next point. I received information from the it made and the cynicism it displayed in making Department of Health and Children that it costs promises it clearly had no intention of honouring. \746 per day to treat a patient at Cork University The Government amendment refers to the health Hospital, while at Mallow General Hospital the strategy, Quality and Fairness — A Health rate is a comparatively cheaper \475. How can System for You, but the Minister for Health and one justify that with 90% of people being treated Children knows nothing about quality or fairness. in our general hospital at half the rate? The north As was stated earlier, the Labour Party opposes Cork region has a population of more than 90,000 the Hanly report which proposes to change the but no extra beds are being provided in this role of general hospitals to implement the region, especially in community hospitals, to cater European working time directive which requires for the elderly. Families have been given that junior doctors work fewer hours. subvention claim forms and are being encouraged It is a fact that 90% of people treated in to apply for beds in private nursing homes. hospitals in this country can be treated in the Subventions are not being paid which is resulting general hospital system without recourse to larger in major financial difficulties for families. hospitals. The Minister proposes to change the In a recent reply, the Minister informed me he role of our general hospitals, but it will not be had provided \21.4 million to facilitate the easy for him. Mallow General Hospital provides discharge of patients from the acute system to acute medical and surgical facilities, including more appropriate settings, thereby freeing up ear, nose and throat surgery. There is also a 24 acute beds. I will outline a number of cases which hour accident and emergency service with an have occurred in the past week. A lady referred ambulance base and out-patient and from the north Cork area who was a carer for her physiotherapy services as well as a laboratory and husband was told it would take until the end of other ancillary services. 2005 before she would be seen for a 1235 Hospital Waiting Lists: 4 May 2004. Motion 1236

[Mr. Sherlock.] notes that over one million patients gynaecological treatment in Cork University were treated in acute hospitals in 2003; Hospital. We should think about that. — notes the reduction in waiting times and A lady from the Fermoy area whose son was welcomes the substantial progress caring for her had an operation in Cork which has been made in meeting the University Hospital. The son was informed he targets set out in the health strategy, had no choice other than to fill in a claim for Quality and Fairness — A Health subvention. He had no idea what that meant System for You; because they had nothing but her pension and a carer’s allowance. He was told there were no beds — commends the targeted approach being and his only choice was to complete that form. adopted in relation to the long waiters An elderly lady of 78 years in the Fermoy area to the extent that 80% of patients now who was being cared for by her daughter was wait less than one year for surgical referred to Dromcollogher in County Limerick, treatment; far from her own people. Her respite care had — acknowledges the reduction in cardiac ended there and she has now gone to Tipperary surgery waiting lists where adult because the Alzheimer Society has provided for waiting lists have fallen by 90% and her there. More than 500 people are waiting for children’s waiting lists have fallen by enhanced subvention in the Cork area and it is over 90%; always stated that the Minister is not providing the money. The Minister is not closing hospitals — welcomes the initiatives taken to but he is downgrading them to be half-way houses reduce the number of inappropriately for half-cured patients. placed patients in acute hospitals; In regard to the issue of medical cards referred — welcomes the initiatives being taken to by Deputy McManus, an elderly lady recently with regard to the staffing of emergency cried when she went to a chemist and had to pay medicine departments; for what was prescribed for her family from \ money she could not afford because their income — acknowledges the investment of 46 was marginally over the limit. A doctor’s letter million into GP co-ops which provide was submitted with her application but it was 24 hour GP availability; rejected. Standing beside this woman was one of — notes that almost 600 additional acute the wealthiest people in the area who presented beds were provided in 2002/2003; a medical card. The Minister should think about that because it is what he is presiding over. The — acknowledges the 41% increase in person in question could not afford the medicine consultant numbers in the last six years but the elderly wealthy person produced a and the 32% increase in the number of medical card which is outrageous. I am glad nurses; and Deputy McManus referred to this issue about — welcomes the achievement of the which the IMO at national level has also spoken national treatment purchase fund for out. General practitioners are annoyed that their arranging treatment for 13,000 patients letters of recommendation are being ignored by since July 2002.” health board officials. This motion should not be opposed by the Tonight’s debate allows me to report on the Government but rather taken seriously and significant progress that has been achieved on implemented. If the Minister thinks he will hospital waiting lists. I remind Deputies that implement the Hanly report in our region, he has waiting lists stood at 23,000 in December 1994 another think coming. when Labour and Fine Gael assumed control of the health services. In their programmes for Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): Government they spelt out clearly, “We will I move amendment No. 1: continue the progress of the past two years in reducing waiting lists.” Despite their pledge the ´ To delete all words after “Da´il Eireann” and waiting lists rose by 27% under the rainbow substitute the following: coalition, from around 23,000 in December 1994 “commends the Government’s commitment to around 30,000 in June 1997. That was the and concentrated effort to reducing waiting record of the caring coalition. What was the times for public patients and: reaction of the rainbow democratic alternative to this state of affairs? In January 1997, in the face — notes that some \250 million was being of a 27% rise in waiting lists, they cut the funding provided to reduce waiting times for on the reduction of waiting lists by 20%. patients between 1998 and 2003; This Government’s programme — from which — acknowledges the extensive additional the Labour Party could learn much — is founded resources which have been provided for on two key concerns: first, to invest in services acute hospital services since 1997 and and, second, to bring about significant reform. In 1237 Hospital Waiting Lists: 4 May 2004. Motion 1238 terms of investment we have made considerable Mr. Martin: Work is well under way to make progress since the Labour Party was last in these changes a reality. Government. There can be no arguing that this I also propose to share my time with the year the Government will invest almost \10.2 Minister of State at the Department of Health billion in health in comparison to a paltry £2.5 and Children, Deputy O’Malley. billion donated by the rainbow Administration when it was in office. Ms Lynch: I thought the Minister was about to mention BreastCheck. Mr. F. McGrath: People still cannot get beds. Mr. Sherlock: He is making no sense. Mr. Martin: Put simply, it is the parties on this side of the House that have increased the health Mr. Martin: I did not interrupt speakers. We spend by 188%. It might pain the Deputies are in a House where the principle of free speech opposite to admit it but the facts show that it is should be honoured and I would appreciate the Fianna Fa´il and our partners the Progressive opportunity to complete my speech. Democrats who have shown the political will to It is important to put the provision of acute reverse the historical under-investment in our hospital services in context. Over the last two or health services. three decades there have been numerous important advances in surgical technology and in Mr. F. McGrath: People are still on chairs. anaesthesia. These advances have greatly improved the range, the safety and the Mr. Martin: The last seven years, since the effectiveness of the surgical procedures that can Taoiseach formed his first Administration, have be offered by modern health systems. However, brought substantial additional spending on health as a consequence there have been dramatic care — on capital projects, on staff and on the increases in the demand for surgical procedures, day-to-day running of a continually increasing especially elective procedures. Day activity is now level of services. More and more patients and a significant component of hospital-based care in clients have benefited from the extra resources Ireland. Evidence shows that much of the growth we have put into our health system. That is the is the result of technological and medical bottom line. More and more patients have innovations, such as less invasive surgery and benefited, year on year. That is there for all to advances in anaesthetics. There has been a see. staggering increase of nearly 80%, from 249,472 to 440,817, between 1997 and 2003. This increase Ms Lynch: When will the women of Cork get reflects the increasing ability of the hospital BreastCheck? system to treat more patients on a day basis Mr. F. McGrath: The Minister is on a where they are admitted and discharged on the different planet. same day. The funding has gone to that 80% increase, but that is rarely acknowledged in the Mr. Martin: We are proud of this record and House. we can stand over the level of investment we have The nature of any health care system is such allocated to our health services. The question the that not all treatments can be made available to Labour Party must ask is whether it is proud of patients immediately. Acute services have to be what took place on their watch, or was it a case provided in a way that uses hospital facilities to again of Labour wrestling with its conscience, best effect. Patients who require elective with its conscience losing? treatment may have to wait because beds, staff As for the Labour Party’s criticism of our and operating theatres are being used to treat reform record, we have set out not just a emergency cases. The balance to be achieved is challenging programme of reform of which the to ensure that the available resources are used Hanly task force report is just one vital element, efficiently and that treatment can be delivered to we are now set forth on implementing the most patients in a reasonable time. comprehensive reform programme in the recent From the beginning this Government wanted history of Irish health care. As Deputy McManus to focus clearly on reducing waiting times for is well aware, earlier this year the Government public patients who required admission to announced decisions regarding a new health hospital for elective treatment. In order to keep services executive which will include a national the focus on waiting times we set ourselves hospital office, a primary and continuing care ambitious targets both in the health strategy and directorate and a shared services centre. Taken in the programme for Government. I make no together, these structural reforms represent the apologies for the setting of these targets, as biggest single national reorganisation of the without targets we would have nothing to aim for. health system since 1970. Those targets have allowed the Government to maintain a particular focus on those waiting Mr. Sherlock: Is Fianna Fa´il voting for that? longest for hospital treatment. 1239 Hospital Waiting Lists: 4 May 2004. Motion 1240

[Mr. Martin.] An Ceann Comhairle: The Minister, without I was very pleased earlier today to announce interruption. significant progress in relation to identifying the true position of elective waiting lists in this Mr. Martin: I am putting the information on country. This significant progress has in particular the record. been achieved through the work of the national treatment purchase fund. The NTPF is a health Mr. Durkan: A sensitive subject. The Minister strategy initiative with the task of achieving is getting 4,000 people off the lists in one day. reductions in waiting times and particularly to offer treatment to those who have been waiting Mr. Martin: I accept these figures are longest. I will set out for the benefit of the House disappointing news for the Opposition. some of the information reported by the NTPF today. The NTPF has reported that waiting times Mr. F. McGrath: The Minister should go to have fallen significantly in the last year, with 37% Beaumont. of patients now waiting between three and six months and 43% waiting between six and 12 An Ceann Comhairle: Deputies will have an months for surgery. Therefore 80% of patients opportunity to speak later. now wait less than one year for surgical Ms McManus: This is not information, it is spin. treatment. This represents a major reduction in the length of time patients have to wait. Mr. Martin: It is not spin. This is the report of The NTPF has a multidisciplinary team which the NTPF. has been working with individual hospitals to identify patients on waiting lists for surgical Mr. Durkan: It is massage. procedures. The NTPF has undertaken validation of those waiting longest for treatment and this An Ceann Comhairle: The Minister is entitled suggests that the figures reported to the to exactly the same courtesy in the House that Department of Health and Children overstate the the Labour Party received when proposing the number of persons who are available for motion. treatment. The Department, in consultation with the NTPF, has carried out a comparative analysis Mr. Martin: The Opposition should go back of the number of patients reported to be waiting outside the door with their umbrellas. for surgical treatments and it has become clear that the number of patients reported to the Ms O. Mitchell: I suppose we are only Department includes patients who are not imagining people on trolleys. actually waiting or available for treatment. Having set up the NTPF on a statutory basis An Ceann Comhairle: Does Deputy Mitchell with effect for 15 May 2004 I have also decided want to concede some of her time to the to transfer responsibility for the recording and Minister? publishing of waiting list figures to the NTPF. The NTPF, in conjunction with the Department Mr. Martin: Based on its detailed interaction and health agencies, has undertaken a verification with individual hospitals the NTPF has identified process which takes account of the constant a group of 19,591 patients who are reported to movement of patients on and off lists — “the flow be waiting more than three months for specific factor”. The NTPF has taken account of such procedures, mainly surgical, and the NTPF will factors as patients not being available for target this group during 2004. There are 4,040 treatment, patients not being medically suitable patients waiting more than 12 months for to undergo treatment, patients no longer treatment included in the 19,591, who represent requiring treatment and patients postponing 20% of all those waiting. A certain percentage of treatment at their own request. the identified group of patients is expected to be When those factors have been taken into removed through further validation. This is done account the NTPF has estimated that a large by going to the patient and asking them if they number of patients, approximately 4,500, can be want an operation, as that organisation can removed from the Department’s reported figure. provide it. That is how those figures are assessed by the NTPF. It is a different methodology and a Ms McManus: Will the Minister give way for different approach. a question? Mr. Durkan: Why did the Minister not mention Mr. Martin: I certainly will not. The Deputy that before? should let me finish. Mr. Martin: It has not been done by me or by Ms McManus: The Minister is very touchy. officials in the Department but a multidisciplinary team with medical and nursing Mr. Martin: No, I am not. I am pressing ahead. inputs. That is how this is happening. Those are 1241 Hospital Waiting Lists: 4 May 2004. Motion 1242 objective facts. By arranging an estimated 12,000 — 46% — refer patients waiting six to 12 months, treatments in 2004, the national treatment and four hospitals — 16% — refer patients purchase fund will make further significant waiting 12 to 24 months. progress in reducing the average waiting times for Much progress has been made to reduce surgical procedures. waiting times and we are on track to achieve the In 2004 I have allocated \31 million to the targets set out in the health strategy. The transfer health boards and Eastern Regional Health of responsibility for waiting list figures to the Authority as base funding for consultant and national treatment purchase fund will result in a other support staff costs associated with reducing more accurate and complete picture of the elective waiting lists. I have also increased the numbers waiting and, more importantly, the funding for the national treatment purchase fund length of time they wait for their procedures. The to \44 million in 2004. important issue is that patients wait for treatment for the shortest possible time and that the lists Ms McManus: More spin. tell us correctly how many patients are available for treatment. Mr. Martin: Therefore, the total amount of It is important to stress that treatment can be dedicated funding available to tackle waiting lists fast-tracked for patients who are willing to travel \ in 2004 — 75 million — is the same level of outside their local hospital or health board area. funding provided in 2003, despite the spin and The fund has capacity available to treat more misleading comments of Deputy McManus at the patients. Since the fund commenced arranging joint committee last week. However, the national operations for patients, some 13,000 patients have treatment purchase fund now has the significant been treated. It is also important to note that in a lead role in tackling waiting times and waiting recent survey of patients who had their treatment lists. Opposition Deputies appear to find it arranged by the national treatment purchase difficult to accept the facts. fund, some 98.5% of patients treated were either satisfied or very satisfied with their treatment. Mr. Sherlock: We are speaking facts but the Surely the level of satisfaction in that survey is Minister is not doing so. testament to the significant progress being made by the national treatment purchase fund. Can we Mr. Martin: Waiting times for surgical have some acknowledgement from the treatment have been reduced. In the specialty of Opposition on that achievement? A clear cardiac surgery alone adult waiting lists have message is being delivered here. There is no need fallen by 90%, from 1,477 to 150, and children’s for the majority of patients to wait more than six waiting lists have fallen by 91% since 1997, from months for elective surgery. 109 to 10. One will never hear that from the Labour Party, the Fine Gael Party, the Green Ms O. Mitchell: Now it is the patients’ fault. Party or Sinn Fe´in. Mr. Martin: Nearly 40% of acute hospitals will Mr. Hayes: We hear it from the Minister. now refer patients who have been waiting more Mr. Martin: It has been a dramatic than three months to the national treatment improvement because of increased surgical purchase fund. Patients who have been waiting provision, new units in St. James’s Hospital, in more than six months for treatment can contact particular, on the adult side and in the Mater the national treatment purchase fund directly or Hospital and Cork University Hospital. through their general practitioners to arrange treatment. We appeal to people to do that. Mr. Hayes: What about the unit in Clonmel While the national treatment purchase fund that the Minister is not opening? has the task of dealing with the immediate needs of patients, the increasing capacity of the public Mr. Martin: The national treatment purchase hospital system to treat an increasing number of fund has substantial capacity to treat patients and patients is a product of the significant investment will continue to focus on reducing waiting times by the Government in health services. This year even further. The fund’s target is to treat more we have provided a gross allocation of \10 billion than 12,000 this year and has the capacity to treat for the health service which is almost double the a minimum of 1,000 patients per month — 800 in level of funding in 1997. Ireland and 200 in four private hospitals in No one can deny that the hospital system is England. Maintaining referrals at this level will providing more and better services than ever result in waiting times for surgical operations before. Activity in our acute hospitals continues being reduced in line with the health strategy to rise. The reported number of patients on targets of three to six months. Almost half of all hospital waiting lists must be seen in the context hospitals now refer patients waiting between six of a continuing increase in the number of people and 12 months. Nine hospitals — 38% — refer treated in public hospitals. The number of patient waiting three to six months, 11 hospitals patients discharged from hospital having been 1243 Hospital Waiting Lists: 4 May 2004. Motion 1244

[Mr. Martin.] activity. On the issue of nursing, a matter raised treated as either an in-patient or as a day case in by Deputy McManus, there are repeated claims 2003 was more than one million. This is the first that there is a nursing crisis—— time the number has exceeded one million and represents a 4.7% increase over 2002. This also Mr. Durkan: Is there no crisis? represents a 27% increase in the number of patients treated compared with the number in Mr. Martin: ——but little acknowledgement 1997, which was approximately 785,000. The that 8,200 more nurses work in the system than money is being spent on increased activity, in 1997 while the annual number of nurse training procedures and treatments and more people places has also increased by 67%. being treated in the system. Mr. Hayes: Why is there more frustration in Mr. Durkan: What about the massage of the the nursing profession than ever before? figures? Mr. Martin: In 1994, when Labour and Fine Mr. Martin: These figures were objectively Gael assumed responsibility for the reform of the obtained. I do not have control over their health services, there were 1,179 pre-registration compilation. Everybody knows about the system nurse training places in Ireland. The issue of which is producing those activity figures in medical manpower was already a pressing issue, respect of who is being discharged from hospital. and nurse shortages were becoming a serious The system is independent from me and has been issue. In its programme for Government, the independent of different Ministers. That is well rainbow Government spelt out: “It is now a known. It is the bottom line. It might be hard to matter of urgency that the issue of medical accept that but that is the reason there is such staffing is addressed.” Rather than heed its pressure on our acute hospitals. I pay tribute to pledge, the coalition of the callous then cut back our acute hospitals and staff who have dealt nurse training places. When it left office in 1997 effectively with the expanding numbers due to the number of pre-registration nurse training the increased population. places had declined to 982. To be fair to the then Minister for Finance, Mr. Durkan: Is that the response of the aide- Deputy Quinn, who could have funded additional memoire or the other way round? places, he made the astounding admission in the House before the previous general election that, Mr. Sherlock: What about the elderly patients? as Minister for Finance, he was warned about impending nurse shortages and said: “I confess I Mr. Martin: The single most important factor did not listen to those voices at the time as well for patients who await admission to hospital is as I might have and the problems the Minister for bed availability. Health and Children now has are, in part, related to that.” This is despite the fact that he had Mr. Sherlock: What about the elderly patients? pledged to address these shortages in the Labour- Fine Gael programme for Government. Deputies Mr. Martin: The extent of the shortfall in acute opposite should remember that when they talk capacity has been identified by a report entitled, about broken promises. Acute Hospital Bed Capacity — A National Review, and it indicated a requirement for an Mr. Durkan: Memories on the Government additional 3,000 acute beds in acute hospitals by side are short. 2011. I introduced the first phase of this process in January 2002 which provided funding in excess Mr. Martin: They have some neck. Many of the of \117 million, capital and revenue, for an difficulties and delays experienced in emergency additional 709 acute beds for public patients. medicine or accident and emergency departments That money was put into and invested in the reflect system-wide issues. To deal with the system. That represents an increase of 6% on current pressures on acute services both in the existing capacity and some 584 of these beds have shorter term and in the longer term I shall outline been commissioned to date. briefly some of the key actions that I have taken. These additional services are now being It has been widely documented that there are a provided by an increasing number of medical number of patients in acute hospital beds who consultants. According to the Comhairle na have completed their acute phase of treatment nOspide´al report on consultant staffing on 1 and are ready for discharge to a more appropriate January 2004, there were 1,824 consultant posts setting. The availability of suitable sub-acute beds in the public sector in Ireland. This represents an is a particular problem in the eastern and increase of 41% in the last six years. No other southern regions. In this regard I have allocated period in the history of the State can equate that \12.6 million to the respective health boards to rise in consultant staffing levels and numbers. facilitate the discharge of patients from acute These are facts and they are resulting in increased hospitals to a more appropriate setting, thus 1245 Hospital Waiting Lists: 4 May 2004. Motion 1246 freeing up acute beds. This funding allows for the appropriate to a primary care setting. funding through the subvention system of Government support for the development of additional beds in the private nursing home general practitioner out-of-hours co-operatives sector and ongoing support in the community. on a national basis for the period 1997 to 2003 In the Eastern Regional Health Authority amounted to \46.5 million. In time, these co-ops some 250 patients have been discharged from can be developed to provide a much wider range acute hospitals as a direct result of this recent of services to ensure that communities, initiative. I am also pleased to note irrespective of size and distance from major 8 o’clock that the Eastern Regional Health urban centres, enjoy appropriate access to Authority is reporting that it has primary care services. That has been a significant been successful in agreeing the re-opening of the achievement in a very short period of time and it vast majority of acute beds in the eastern region which were temporarily closed. has been a very significant investment. The Government is well on the road to completing Ms McManus: How many beds? that over the next two years. I have demonstrated to the House this evening Mr. Martin: All except a small single-digit that this Government has achieved significant number. All closed beds in the Mater hospital reductions in waiting times, particularly for those have been reopened. I will supply the Deputy waiting longest for admission to hospital for with the figures. treatment; it has made significant progress in meeting the health strategy target of no patient Mr. Durkan: What about the ones that were waiting more than three months for elective never opened? treatment; it continues to keep the focus on waiting times for public patients through the Mr. Martin: As part of the winter initiative operation of the national treatment purchase package in 2000-2001, I provided additional fund; it has been instrumental in providing the funding of some \40 million aimed at alleviating necessary investment that has resulted in service pressures and maintaining services to unprecedented levels of acute hospital activity; it patients. Part of this investment package was continues to ensure that patient access to aimed at the recruitment of additional emergency appropriate care and treatment remains at the medicine consultants and consultant centre of health policy. anaesthetists. To date, 20 additional emergency The Opposition’s approach is to promise medicine consultants have been recruited. everything but never to provide a framework Further appointments are being progressed by within which anything can be achieved. Much the health boards and the ERHA. There are now hypocrisy which has been heard tonight — for 51 emergency medicine consultant posts in acute example, the criticism of the over-70s deal, hospitals, which is a 260% increase in numbers despite the fact that the Deputies opposite since 1997 when there were 14 consultants posts. welcomed it and voted for it in the lobbies of I have had enough lectures about emergency this House. medicine and accident and emergency cover. Ms McManus: Not the deal. Mr. Sherlock: What about the radiologists for Mallow? Mr. Martin: They voted for the measure and Mr. Martin: In 1997 when this Government then went on before the last general election—— came into power there were 14 consultant posts and there are now 51. I will deal with Mallow Mr. Sherlock: The ordinary people cannot hospital later. The Deputy need have no worries afford to pay. in that regard. The Fianna Fa´il-Progressive Democrats coalition has done far more for Mr. Martin: ——to promise free GP care for Mallow hospital than the Deputy or his party everybody, irrespective of means. ever did. Mr. Durkan: The Government promised Mr. Sherlock: The Minister should go to the 200,000 extra medical cards. Will the Minister hospital and tell them that. apologise to those who did not receive them?

Mr. Martin: The availability of senior medical Mr. Martin: Where is the consistency in staff in emergency medicine departments should approach? There has been a dramatic increase in facilitate rapid clinical decision-making, the numbers participating in the drugs payment enhanced management, diagnosis and treatment scheme since it was reformed by my predecessor of patients. some years ago and which opened it up to the With regard to primary care, emergency public to a greater extent than previously. There medicine departments sometimes have to deal has been a significant expansion of that scheme with injuries and conditions which are more in terms of the numbers who avail of it and in 1247 Hospital Waiting Lists: 4 May 2004. Motion 1248

[Mr. Martin.] Mr. Martin: It is about time we stopped trying terms of the expenditure attached to it. That is to downgrade hospitals such as Mallow with another fact rarely mentioned by the Opposition. rhetoric. We must accept that such hospitals have a significant role to play—— (Interruptions). Mr. Durkan: We agree with the Minister on Mr. Martin: Regarding Mallow and Fermoy that point. hospitals, the acute hospital review under Hanly never looked at Mallow but that will not Mr. Martin: ——in the future of Irish health prevent—— care. This Government is planning the most Mr. Sherlock: What about the radiologists in ambitious programme of change in the health Mallow? service for over 30 years. The key elements of that programme will be a significant Mr. Martin: ——Deputy Sherlock from rationalisation of existing health services endeavouring to enhance his or his successor’s agencies; the establishment of a health service electoral opportunities on the back of Mallow executive which will be the first ever body hospital once again. charged with managing the health service as a single national entity; the establishment of a Mr. Sherlock: There is a conflict with the health information and quality authority; the re- statement made by the Minister. organisation of the Department of Health and Children to ensure improved policy development Mr. Martin: It seems to be all right for the and oversight; the modernisation of the system- Labour Party to make any sort of announcement supporting processes; the strengthening of it wishes before the general election but the governance and accountability across the system. Government can make no announcement before Mr. Sherlock: Will the Government fund the general election regarding anything to do with subventions for the elderly? There is not a word health or it will be portrayed as electioneering. about the elderly.

Ms O. Mitchell: The poor little Government. Mr. Martin: I will let the Opposition worry about protecting the status quo. The Government Mr. Durkan: There is no evidence to support will get on with reforming structures so that more it. The promises were so broad even the general money goes straight to where it is needed, to public were not conned. direct patient care.

Mr. Martin: Day after day Labour Party and Minister of State at the Department of Health Fine Gael politicians are running around the and Children (Mr. T. O’Malley): I am pleased to country trying to wrap the local hospital around share time with the Minister, Deputy Martin. He them. I visited Mallow hospital recently and will go down in history as one of the most witnessed the increased Government expenditure courageous Ministers for Health and Children on that hospital, which has resulted in increased ever. staffing, increased activity and equipment, and better facilities. Mr. Durkan: That was said about some of Napoleon’s generals. Mr. Sherlock: What about the radiologists? Mr. T. O’Malley: He has proved himself Mr. Martin: The Government looks after already with his very courageous initiative on Mallow hospital. smoking. Many people attacked him when he proposed that ban. Mr. Durkan: Is the Minister going down to Ms O. Mitchell: It was his own people only. Mallow himself? Mr. T. O’Malley: I did not interrupt the Mr. Martin: I was down there already. We had Deputy. a very constructive engagement with the consultants—— Ms O. Mitchell: I did not speak yet.

Mr. Durkan: That is what it is called. Mr. T. O’Malley: The Deputy is speaking now when I am endeavouring to speak. This Mr. Martin: ——and with the staff. Government has done more than any other Government in the history of the State to reduce Ms O. Mitchell: The Minister is a master of hospital waiting lists. It has the courage to rhetoric. This is spin. attempt to reform the health services, unlike 1249 Hospital Waiting Lists: 4 May 2004. Motion 1250 other coalitions who knew about the problems in initiatives he has taken on behalf of the the health service and did not have the guts to Government. take on the vested interests and change the system. Ms O. Mitchell: It is pathetic of the Minister to try to blame the Opposition for the problems in Mr. Durkan: I remember the leader of one the health service, given that the Fianna Fa´il coalition who did not realise it was so bad. Party has been in Government for 15 of the past 17 years and 20 of the past 27 years. If blame has Mr. T. O’Malley: There is much guff from the to be apportioned for problems in the service, all Opposition. They are very successful at being of it lies at the door of the Government. Its loud. They have one problem which constantly attempt to blame the Opposition parties reflects manifests itself right around the country: many the poverty of its excuses. people working in the health service are Two years ago, in the run-up to a general becoming tired of the constant moaning and election, the Minister promised to eliminate complaining about the alleged problems in the waiting lists. This week, in the run-up to another health service. This Government is aware of the election, we have heard a further promise to problems. It is starting in a courageous manner to miraculously make available money, staff and reform the health service. resources to open new facilities. Suddenly, this The health boards have been in existence for money which has long been absent has become 30 years. They have achieved much in their time available. This time, however, the public will not but change is required. The Government is well believe it. Having been forewarned by promises aware that there are problems in the health made at the previous election, they will view this services. It has initiated significant changes and one with jaundiced eyes and require concrete will have the courage of its convictions to evidence before believing the emperor has new implement those changes. clothes. The waiting list initiative and the treatment That promise was made yesterday. Today, purchase fund have been set up by the presumably in response to this motion on the Government. The proof of the pudding is that Government’s failure to eliminate waiting lists by there are now 13,000 patients, all medical card the deadline of this week, the Minister started to holders, who have been treated in an effective spin again. The figure for people on waiting lists, manner. The Minister referred in his contribution which stood at 27,000 this morning, miraculously to the satisfaction rating of the patients at 98%. declined by 4,500 by lunchtime.

Mr. Durkan: What about the other 2%? Mr. Durkan: That is good progress in half a day. Mr. T. O’Malley: That is the patients talking. Ms O. Mitchell: This is the second time the Mr. McCormack: They are the ones who have Minister has tried to manipulate the manner in been treated. which waiting lists are presented in order to confuse and confound everybody. Mr. T. O’Malley: Does the Deputy begrudge it to them? Mr. Martin: On a point of order, the figures are not mine but were produced by another body. Mr. McCormack: No. Ms O. Mitchell: They are never the Minister’s Mr. T. O’Malley: The Government will figures. continue and hopefully another 13,000 patients will be treated under the national treatment Mr. Martin: The charge of manipulation is purchase fund this year. Eighty per cent of unfair and unjust. patients now wait less than one year for surgical treatment. The figures for 2004 show that 20% of Ms O. Mitchell: Irrespective of who draws up patients wait over 12 months and 2.5% wait over the lists, how they are manipulated and what spin 24 months. This is very positive news for patients is put on them, the fact remains that even using in that those who have been waiting longest have a new accounting method discovered just in time now been either treated under the national for today’s debate, a staggering 22,500 people still treatment purchase fund or have been offered await treatment. The Minister’s boast is that the treatment. The fund’s target is to treat more than figure has been reduced to 22,500 after two years, 12,000 patients this year and it has the capacity to despite the large amount of money at his disposal. treat a minimum of 1,000 patients per month. What happened to the 4,500 people in question This Government is proud of its unprecedented between this morning and lunchtime? According initiatives on reforming the health services. I look to the Minister’s statement, they were either not forward to continuing to work with my colleague, available for treatment, not medically suitable for the Minister for Health and Children, on the treatment, no longer in need of treatment or 1251 Hospital Waiting Lists: 4 May 2004. Motion 1252

[Ms O. Mitchell.] Increasingly, such fanciful promises sound like requested postponing treatment. How do we the ravings of someone less and less in touch with explain this? The answer is that they either reality. Perhaps the Minister is very much in emigrated in despair, were too sick to be treated, touch with reality and the Hanly report and all died, or moved into the private system. The the other reforms are nothing more than an effort reality is that nobody recovered miraculously or to distract attention from the crisis now pervading if someone did, the Minister should start selling virtually every sector and layer of the health relics. service. This motion is not only about political point Growing hospital lists and trolley clogged scoring and another broken promise but the price accident and emergency departments are all part people pay for the Minister’s broken promises. of the same problem. They are two sides of the Sick and disabled people, the elderly and those in same coin which are widely reported, visible, pain pay the price in pain, suffering, lost mobility, quantifiable and shocking. Other waiting lists, lost jobs and lost lives. Chronic waiting lists are however, are not reported in the media and while not just another problem in the health service but they may not be as visible or quantifiable, they the manifestation of the accumulation of many are just as shocking. We do not hear of the problems in the health service which have children who will never be able to communicate remained unresolved. They are the bottleneck because they were unable to get speech therapy into which indecision, shortages, inadequacies at the crucial time of their lives, or of those who and inefficiencies have fed. Consequently, as the become permanently disabled or lose mobility motion states, ending waiting lists is not solely a because of a lack of physiotherapy. matter of bed capacity but of staffing and The real scandal, the real hidden waiting list, equipping beds and a range of other measures. is the one that causes the greatest distress and Let us examine the Government’s record on suffering and results in the highest morbidity and bed capacity. It has known for years from mortality. It is the list of those waiting to see a numerous reports that there are not enough beds consultant in the first instance, a group of people in the system and the Minister has accepted that. without even a diagnosis, much less a treatment, Not since the time of the MacSharry cutbacks of who sit on referral lists for endless months and the 1980s and even before that has the problem about whom we never hear. been so acute. Even the Hanly report accepted If we had a sufficient number of consultants, the need for an additional 3,000 beds as this would not happen. If we did not have the recommended in the health strategy. Despite ludicrous position in which virtually the only way giving a commitment to provide this number of to become a consultant is through Government beds over ten years, as with so many other appointment, perhaps it would not happen. If, promises, the Government’s undertaking appears instead of rationing access to care for patients, to have run into the ground. consultants were competing for business, perhaps What is most disturbing is the absence of it would not happen. If that idea is too preparation to deal with the problem, not only in revolutionary, we should at least have some terms of developing physical infrastructure but as transparency about waiting lists. Why are the regards staffing — consultants, nurses or the public and general practitioners unable to find many specialist health care professionals out which consultants have long and which have required. Where will the professionals be found short waiting lists? This would enable them to at to provide the beds the Government continues to least make choices. Surely, in this age of promise on foot of the Hanly report? The consumer information, this is not too much to problem is not only one of money but that the ask. staff required have not been recruited not to If we had more consultants, there is no doubt mention trained. that demand for expensive, acute beds would be We cannot even retain those whom we train. reduced, people would see their consultants Endless warnings have been made about the need before their conditions deteriorated and to match the number of those in training with consultants would have more time to organise service needs. Like so many other well signalled tests outside acute hospitals without feeling the disasters, however, these warnings have been need to admit patients and cluster them as a time ignored. It was precisely this lack of foresight in saving exercise. health and other sectors that killed the Celtic We were also promised improved and tiger. In other words, demand outstripped the enhanced primary care as a means of reducing supply of skilled manpower, which fed into higher waiting lists. A strategy outlined a brave new labour costs and prices and, ultimately, resulted world of primary care in which demand for in a loss of competitiveness. The Government has hospital admission would be reduced through learned nothing from that, yet it expects us to targeted intervention, early detection and slavishly believe the promise in the Hanly report ongoing illness management but virtually nothing that we will have hordes of consultants touring happened. Even this year, primary care is the networks of hospitals to treat people at will. only area in which Government expenditure is 1253 Hospital Waiting Lists: 4 May 2004. Motion 1254 falling as fewer and fewer families can afford to Galway, stays in a bed and breakfast, reports to attend their general practitioners. More families the hospital having fasted for the night only to be must now make a choice as regards which told there is no bed. At the same time, the members can attend a GP. They must prioritise Western Health Board had a surplus of \15 between the breadwinner and the sickest, oldest million in 2002-03. How can it have such a surplus and youngest family members and decide which with service like that? The 31 beds in St. Anne’s of them will get part of the family’s limited ward were closed. Had they been opened with the budget to pay for a visit to their general surplus, that man might have been treated. He practitioner. was told he could not be seen that day, he then These are the kind of devastating choices waited around Galway all day before getting a families have to make as a result of this boat back in the evening. That is the reality. Government’s broken promises. There are An elderly patient had his surgery cancelled six families who are on waiting lists to see a times at University College Hospital Galway. If consultant for a worrying and maybe painful the reward system that the Minister is condition, families who have loved ones awaiting implementing is followed, health boards will cut admission for elective surgery, and families whose back to stay within their budgets and be rewarded elderly parents lie for several days on trolleys. All financially at the end of the year. It is no credit these families place their trust in the Minister and to the Western Health Board if it stays within its the Government. No matter how the Minister budget in 2003 because it was achieved through spins it, and he is good at doing that, they know serious cutbacks. Many appointments were he has failed them. He will pay the price for this. cancelled in 2003 and I am informed that it was because no beds were available in the hospital. Mr. McCormack: This is the second No matter what the Minister of State says in his anniversary of the Government’s promise to defence of the Government, that is the reality. I eliminate waiting lists. That is a fact no matter hope the people remember it on 11 June and I what the Minister states. It raised hopes for many will tell the disappointed people that the worst people that their loved ones would receive thing possible in politics is to deceive people. treatment, but these hopes have been dashed. The Minister told them he would eliminate Waiting lists were to be ended this week. Instead, hospital waiting lists although he knew he could there are 23,000 to 27,000 on the waiting list, not do it, and now he knows he has not done it. depending on when the Minister speaks. How The waiting lists are now at 25,000, yet the many patients are waiting to see a consultant to Minister was to have abolished them by this get on a waiting list? How many young children week. and young adults are on orthodontic waiting lists? Waiting time in the Western Health Board area Mr. Durkan: We are not giving the Minister full is now four years, yet only a minority of those credit for some of his achievements. In the past seen can get on the orthodontic waiting list. It 24 hours we have witnessed a miracle comparable was two years only a few years ago. After to the miracle of the loaves and the fishes or the deceiving the people at the previous general conversion of St. Paul. In the space of four hours election by promising to eliminate the waiting list, the Minister has miraculously cured 4,000 people there are now 23,000 to 27,000 people on that list. and removed them from the waiting lists. He All the Department and the Minister have done could not do that for the past two years so I is massage the figures by writing to people asking congratulate him. I give him full marks for spin them if they are still on the list and if they have and presentation. I remind him of the Cabinet had a procedure carried out privately. The meeting last week when this aide-memoire was Government tried the same approach in the run- prepared. It should have been prepared by senior up to the previous election, as a family informed civil servants in the Department unless they were me. They eventually received an apology from assisted. I suspect they did their job and produced the Western Health Board as their loved one was what was required. It happened about the same dead for seven years. time that word broke that \50 million had been How often do we see appointments made and squandered on little machines whose buttons then cancelled? I extracted information from the people could press. This had no approval from Western Health Board to the effect that there the House. There was much panic at that stage. were 4,296 deferrals in 2003. Of that figure, 2,026 The Government decided to do something to had procedures deferred once and 865 had deflect attention from the real issues. procedures deferred more than once. There were I do not know the terms of reference for the 985 procedures deferred for lack of beds. report the Minister received. He has successfully Consultants deferred 406 procedures, 275 were massaged the figures. He stated that 98% of those deferred by hospitals and 638 had their admission who were treated under the national treatment date changed. What should I say to a man from purchase fund expressed satisfaction. What has an island off the Galway coast who has had an that got to do with the waiting list? Surely he did appointment cancelled three times? He comes to not expect them to say that the treatment was 1255 Schools 4 May 2004. Refurbishment 1256

[Mr. Durkan.] research and third level education in general will awful. Did he ask the other 2% what concerned not matter. them? The Minister is probably aware that the school in Midleton was built in the early 1970s, 33 years Mr. Martin: There were many doubts about it ago, and virtually nothing has been done with the before. laboratory since then. The school applied for funding under the summer work scheme but the Mr. Durkan: He did not refer to the 22,000 that application was shot down and the school was he managed to leave on waiting lists. He was very disappointed as a result. I note that under supposed to have eliminated waiting lists after the scheme there are a number of criteria to be two years. The Minister is beginning to suffer the adhered to, one of which pertains to gas works. affliction of memory failure which has beset Projects are required to ensure that required Government Members of the House in recent safety standards associated with the use of gas in years. I remember him stating that waiting lists schools are satisfied. Those standards do not would be eliminated in two years, which have apply in the school in Midleton because it uses now elapsed. What has he done? He reduced camping gas. The Minister, as a former Minister them by 4,000 in half a day. What about the for Education and Science, will agree this is not other 22,000? acceptable. What about the hospital beds that have been I know the Minister has much interest in provided for in the Estimates but for which no Midleton and I ask him to take an interest in this staff are available? This has happened in Naas issue. He has visited the school and perhaps he Hospital, Blanchardstown Hospital, Maynooth will stress to his ministerial colleague in the Community Hospital, and with the recent clumsy Department of Education and Science the efforts at Peamount Hospital. His Department importance of funding the school as a matter of funds facilities such as Peamount. The farcical urgency. The two existing laboratories are in aspect is that we were suddenly reassured the urgent need of refurbishment. The gas supply pulmonary care facilities at the hospital would be system, having been in place for 33 years, has provided elsewhere. Lo and behold, the next broken down and needs to be replaced. The patient referred from a hospital for treatment at electrical system is inadequate, having given a Peamount was refused admission. It is typical of great deal of trouble in recent years, and the the ham-fisted way in which the Minister and his plumbing fittings also need to be replaced. The Department have gone about their business. He benches need to be replaced. The display cabinets has failed the people and has failed to deliver on are of a DIY-type construction and are not up the promise he made before the last general to standard. A third laboratory has long been a election to abolish the hospital waiting lists. His necessity, and this is accepted by the Department. time is up. It is important that action be taken very soon. I see we have a changing of the guard across Debate adjourned. the way.

Adjournment Debate. Mr. B. Lenihan: I am fully briefed.

———— Mr. Stanton: Fully briefed. I worry when a Minister is late, states he is fully briefed and reads Schools Refurbishment. a prepared script in response to Deputies’ contributions. Maybe the Minister of State will Mr. Stanton: I assume the Minister for Health tell me if we are wasting our time coming to the and Children, Deputy Martin, is taking this House at all. My experience is that we hear no debate. I thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle for more about the issues we raise and that they are allowing me raise this matter, which pertains to shelved somewhere in some report. I ask the the need to refurbish the laboratories in the Minister of State opposite to take a personal Christian Brothers’ second level school in interest in this issue. The school laboratories in Midleton, County Cork. question are in urgent need of replacement. Dr. Bill Harris, with whom the Minister is I declare a personal interest in that I have two familiar, stated at a recent committee meeting youngsters attending the school. I am sure the that there is nothing more important than a Minister of State will agree that, in this day and hands-on approach to science. He said teaching age, we need proper, up-to-date, safe science as a history and mathematics in a laboratories. It is not good enough that a school theoretical and abstract way will turn students off laboratory has not been upgraded in 33 years. the subjects. He challenged Ireland to produce an The Minister of State should dig out the relevant education system that is the best in the world and file in the Department tomorrow morning and which is measured by the performance of the ascertain what can be done for the Midleton students. If we do not get this right, third level Christian Brothers’ school. In spite of the odds, 1257 Hospital 4 May 2004. Accommodation 1258 the school won a prize in science. One wonders The 2004 school building programme at what great work it could achieve if it had proper primary and post-primary levels amounts to \387 facilities. million and will deliver more than 200 large-scale The Minister of State should note that the new projects. However, it was not possible to include science curriculum requires each class to perform all necessary projects in one year’s programme. at least ten experiments per year. This is The proposed project at the Christian Brothers’ impossible in the present circumstances in the secondary school in Midleton is one of a number, Midleton school. It is just not on and it is also which has to be considered in the context of unsafe. The Minister should ascertain, as a matter future capital allocation for the provision of of urgency, what his Department can do to assist improved accommodation. this excellent school, which needs assistance after When publishing the 2004 school building 33 years. programme, the Department of Education and I reiterate the words of Dr. Harris, who stated Science outlined that its future strategy would be that if we do not have a hands-on approach to grounded in capital investment based on multi- science in second level schools, we are wasting annual allocations. Officers from the Department our time and will be left behind no matter what are reviewing all projects that were not we do in research or at third level. I am sure the authorised to proceed to construction as part of Minster of State agrees with this and that he will the 2004 school building programme with a view do his utmost to facilitate and help. I will follow to including them as part of a multi-annual school this matter carefully to see if I get a response building programme from 2005. They expect to from the Minister in the coming weeks. If I do, I be in a position to make further announcements will not be wasting everybody’s time discussing on this matter in the course of the year. The this matter in the House. If I receive no reply, it needs of the Christian Brothers’ secondary school will not be good enough. I await action on this in Midleton will be considered in this regard. matter. Hospital Accommodation. Minister of State at the Department of Mr. Deenihan: At a time when the Education and Science (Mr. B. Lenihan): Deputy Government is planning a pre-local election Stanton never wastes words in the House and it spending spree on health, which would see the is always worthwhile to raise on the Adjournment opening of hundreds of new beds, the an important subject relating to science and appointment of up to 1,500 additional staff and education. I thank him for raising this matter as the commissioning of new hospital facilities worth it affords me the opportunity to outline to the approximately \400 million, the authorities in House the strategy of the Department of Tralee General Hospital, County Kerry, are Education and Science on capital investment in being forced to close a ward for three months education projects and the current position over the summer because they do not have regarding an application from the Christian enough money to allow for staff locums when Brothers’ secondary school in Midleton, County they are on holidays. This means the waiting list Cork, received by the Department, for the for elective procedures, such as very simple ones refurbishment of science laboratories. for gall stones and varicose veins, will increase. The school in question is an all-boys’ secondary No non-urgent patients will be seen in the out- school, one of four post-primary schools serving patients section during the period. At present, the needs of the Midleton area. Enrolments at the there are up to 2,000 patients waiting to be seen school have been declining in recent years. The in this category, many of whom have undiagnosed current enrolment is 426, while the combined cancers. This unacceptable wait has led to a legal enrolment in the four schools in the Midleton case because a cancer was not diagnosed in time. area is 1,907 pupils. In addition, the population of County Kerry The upgrade of the science laboratories is swells during the months of July, August and included in an application from the school September. The influx of thousands of tourists authorities as part of an overall refurbishment puts further pressure on the services at Tralee project for the school. With an extension project General Hospital. Surely, it is not fair, just or such as that proposed for the school, the responsible to reduce services in what is Ireland’s condition of existing laboratory provision is and one of Europe’s best-known destinations at assessed as part of the preliminary analysis of this time of the year. need. Where existing provision is deemed to be The proposed ward closure is bad for patient inappropriate or otherwise inadequate, either a care and divisive for the staff. With proper complete refurbishment is undertaken or, funding for the hospital, this closure would not be alternatively, brand new facilities are provided. necessary. The hospital was under-funded by \2.5 While the need for improved accommodation at million in 2003 and it is under-funded by at least the school is acknowledged it was not possible to \1.5 million in 2004. A day surgery ward was include provision for this project in this year’s provided and equipped but lies empty and unused school building programme. because there is no money to staff it. 1259 Co´rais Uisce 4 May 2004. agus Se´arachais 1260

[Mr. Deenihan.] The Department of Health and Children Elderly patients with broken hips and patients allocates funding on an annual basis to the who require major surgery for cancer have had Southern Health Board for the provision of their surgery delayed because of the lack of health services. Distribution of this funding to intensive care beds. These delays increase the individual hospitals in the region is a matter for mortality and the morbidity of the surgery. A the board. The haemodialysis unit in Tralee high dependency unit has been equipped and General Hospital has recently been extended. would solve the intensive care problem, but there The unit now has ten dialysis stations and can is no budget to staff it. cater for up to 40 patients. This greatly enhances The hospital only recently received money for the service available to renal patients at the a third obstetrician, a general surgeon and an hospital. orthopaedic surgeon, years after similar Increasing the bed capacity of the acute appointments have been made in equivalent hospital system nationally is a key priority in hospitals elsewhere. Indeed, those hospitals are improving access to acute services. More than 580 now on the way to appointing a fourth consultant. new beds have now been provided in hospitals The hospital is still without the services of a throughout the country under the acute hospital cardiologist despite that the death rate from bed capacity initiative. An additional investment cardiac diseases in County Kerry is the highest in of \1.7 million was provided to Tralee General the country. There are many other problems. Hospital to fund an additional 16 beds under this When clerical staff go on holidays, for example, initiative. Approval has been given to the there is nobody to provide a locum so the Southern Health Board for the appointment of a correspondence and work piles up and awaits design team for the development of a new them on their return. community nursing unit on the campus of Tralee Patients in County Kerry do not receive fair General Hospital. This will represent an treatment. This is a direct result of Government investment of \8.5 million when completed. underfunding of Tralee General Hospital. There Base funding of \1.8 million has been provided are no corresponding cuts in Cork and we do not in 2004 to Tralee General Hospital to progress see the same hardships there. Unfortunately, the appointment of a number of permanent however, Tralee General Hospital, which serves consultants who have been in place on a County Kerry and a much larger population temporary basis for a number of years. These during the summer months, is subject to blatant posts are in the specialities of obstetrics, general discrimination. I hope the Minister of State will surgery, orthopaedics and anaesthetics. I am have good news for the staff, patients and confident that the measures I have outlined and consultants at the hospital and for the people of the additional investment in Tralee General Kerry. Hospital is clear evidence of this Government’s commitment to the further development of acute Mr. B. Lenihan: The Deputy will be aware that hospital facilities for the people of Kerry and responsibility for the provision of services at throughout the country. Tralee General Hospital rests with the Southern Health Board in the first instance. Co´ rais Uisce agus Se´arachais. It is a feature of all acute hospital systems that some beds are out of use for short periods. Bed Mr. Sargent: Gabhaim buı´ochas leis an Leas- closures fluctuate over time and may arise for a Cheann Comhairle, as cead a thabhairt dom an variety of reasons such as staff leave and seasonal cheist phra´inneach seo faoi chu´ rsaı´ uisce a ardu´ . closures. Tralee General Hospital will close a 30 Deirtear in eagra´n an lae inniu den nuachta´n bed general ward from July to the end of La´ gur tha´inig laghdu´ de 1.6% an duine ar uisce September 2004. The Department of Health and ino´ lta ar fud an domhain idir 2001 agus 2002. Children understands that the seasonal closure of B’fhe´idir go gceapann daoine gur fadhb ı´ seo don the ward in Tralee General Hospital will be Mhea´n Oirthear no´ do thuaisceart na hAfraice, similar to the seasonal closure of some beds that ach ta´ sce´al pra´inneach i gConamara maidir le occurred in 2003. This seasonal closure will co´ ras uisce chomh maith. D’a´rdaigh me´ an cheist enable hospital management to co-ordinate seo cupla uair eile sa Teach. Le de´anaı´ d’iarr me´ annual leave for staff and thus reduce the level of ar an Leas-Cheann Comhairle gno´ na Da´la a chur locum cover needed while staff are on holiday. ar athlo´ faoi Bhuan Ordu´ 31 chun droch-sce´al The hospital prides itself on prioritising patient cho´ ras uisce an Cheathru´ Rua agus Loch an care and providing a high quality service. It has Mhuilinn a iniu´ cadh. Chuireas an cheist, conas reported to the Department, for example, that agus cathain a de´anfar an infheistı´ocht de \13.2 when this ward closed last year, there were no milliu´ n ata´ ar fa´il le haghaidh co´ ras nua uisce delays in urgent or essential treatments. Staff agus \3 milliu´ n ata´ ar fa´il le haghaidh co´ ras rostered on this ward are assigned to other areas se´arachais a chur ar fa´il do phobal na ha´ite. Nı´ of the hospital during the temporary closure of bhfuair me´ freagra an uair sin ach, le cu´ namh De´, beds. gheobhaidh me´ freagra anocht. 1261 Co´rais Uisce 4 May 2004. agus Se´arachais 1262

Tamall o´ shin, chuireas an cheist che´ana ar an du´ inn cathain, go dı´reach, a caithfear an t-airgead Aire Comhshaoil, Oidhreachta agus Rialtais ata´ ar fa´il. Nı´ fe´idir an sce´al a sheasamh a Aitiu´ il, cathain a bhe´adh co´ ras uisce nua ag an thuilleadh. gCeathru´ Rua agus ar ghlac an tAire leis an bpra´inn a bhain leis an me´id truailliu´ ata´ ag tarlu´ Minister of State at the Department of the i Loch an Mhuilinn, as a dtagann sola´thar uisce Environment, Heritage and Local Government don phoball. Du´ irt an t-Aire go raibh a Roinn ag (Mr. Gallagher): Ta´ se´ i gceist infheistı´ocht \4.4 feitheamh ar doicime´ad conartha o´ n gcomhairle billiu´ n ina iomla´n a chur ar fa´il do sheirbhı´sı´ uisce don sce´im seo a fheabhso´ dh go mo´ r caighdea´nan agus se´arachais ar feadh thre´imhse an Phlean uisce sa cheantar. Nı´ leor an freagra sin. Nı´ Fhorbartha Na´isiu´ nta, 2000-2006. As an me´id sin, bheimı´s anseo sa Da´il da´ mbeimı´s ag feitheamh ta´ \3.8 billiu´ n sonraithe do mho´ rsce´imeanna ar vo´ taı´.Nı´ mo´ rdu´ inn dul ar a dto´ ir. Seo ceist poiblı´.Ta´ an infheistı´ocht seo dı´rithe ar na eile a bhainean le heaspa pra´inne. Caithfimid dul seirbhı´sı´ uisce agus uisce dra´mhaoile is ga´ a chur ar tho´ ir thorthaı´ o´ thaobh cho´ ras uisce de freisin. ar fa´il chun tacu´ leis an bhforbairt eacnamaı´och Iarraim arı´s inniu go socro´ far cla´r ama agus agus so´ isialta, le ta´irgeadh na fostaı´ochta, le cothu´ plean crı´ochnu´ il chun co´ ras sola´thar uisce agus na ra´taı´ borrtha arda agus le caighdea´in arda co´ ras se´arachais a chur ar fa´il do phobal an timpeallachta a bhaint amach. Cheathru´ Rua, i gConamara, a bhı´onn ag brath Fo´ graı´odh cla´r infheistı´ochta do sheirbhı´sı´ ar Loch an Mhuilinn. Ta´ an t-airgead ar fa´il ach ta´ uisce nua i mı´ Lu´ nasa seo caite i leith na tre´imhse moill fo´ s ar an obair. Se´anann an moill seo cearta o´ 2003 go 2005. Ta´ 737 sce´im sa chla´r, le luach bunu´ sacha ar phobal na Gaeltachta. \5.4 billiu´ n san iomla´n orthu. Is cu´ is a´thais dom Tha´inig an cheist anı´os ag saotharlann e´ go bhfuil Gaillimh ag baint tairbhe suntasach as da´theangach faoi chaighdea´n uisce ino´ lta sa tı´ra an gcla´r seo. Ta´ 54 sce´im i gceist, ar luach thar d’eagraigh Diarmuid Mulcahy, ionadaı´ Glas a \465 milliu´ n, don chathair agus don chontae. Ta´ thagann o´ Chonamara, ag Ard-Fheis an maoiliu´ curtha ar fa´il feisin faoi thionscnamh an Chomhaontais Ghlais i nGaillimh le de´anaı´. I rith talaimh dheisithe chun la´ithrea´in chonaithe na saotharlainne, deineadh cur sı´os cruinn ar an deisithe breise a´ chur ar fa´il chun freastal ar sce´al scannalach a bhaineann le co´ ras uisce agus riachtanais tithı´ochta in a´iteanna e´agsu´ la ar fud co´ ras se´arachais ar an gCeathru´ Rua. an chontae. ´ ´ Thug me fein agus mo bhean cuairt ar Loch an Gach rud san a´ireamh, is le´ir go bhfuil Gaillimh Mhuilinn agus chuir Diarmuid Mulcahy muintir ag fa´il a chion cho´ ir den mhaoiniu´ ata´ ann agus na ha´ite in aithne dom, coiste uisce an Cheathru´ go gcuirfidh na sce´imeanna ata´ faofa go mo´ rle Rua san a´ireamh. Bhuaileamar le Peadar Mac constaicı´ ar an bhforbairt a bhaint as an tslı´ agus Donncha, le Colm O´ Cuaig, le Tomas de Bhailı´s, leis an bonneagar riachtanach a chruthu´ chun le Ro´ na´nO´ Se´, laoch na pa´irce, agus, gan amhras, tacu´ leis an ngnı´omhaı´ocht tuaraso´ ireachta, gno´ , le Seosamh O´ Cuaig, i measc go leor daoine eile. tionsclaı´och agus tithı´ochta sa chontae agus ı´ a Ba le´ir dom go raibh fadhb mho´ r i gceist nuair a mhe´adu´ . sheasamar ar bhruach an locha agus chonaiceamar clu´ dach pı´opa se´arachais a bhı´onn Maidir le Ceathru´ n Rua, ta´ sce´im uisce a sileadh amach an truailliu´ nuair a bhı´onn re´igiu´ nach Chasla, a chuirfidh sola´thar uisce nua ba´isteach trom ann — agus isteach leis an ar fa´il don Cheathru´ Rua, sa chla´r infheistı´ochta dtrualliu´ i Loch an Mhuilinn. To´ gtar uisce ino´ lta, uisce 2003-2005. Ta´ to´ ga´il na sce´ime le tosu´ an mar a tugtar air, as an loch 20 no´ 30 me´adar o´ n bhliain seo chugain. In Aibrea´n 2003, ghlac an bpointe seo. Muna mbe´adh an t-uafa´s clo´ irine a Roinn le moltaı´ o´ Chomhairle Chontae na u´ sa´idtear, bhe´adh pobal na ha´ite an-bhreoite ar Gaillimhe chun an re´amhthuairisc ar an sce´im a fad. thabhairt suas chun da´ta agus ta´ mo Roinn ag Le de´anaı´, theip ar an bpumpa clo´ irı´ne — feitheamh anois leis an dtuairisc sin. nı´orbh e´ an che´ad uair e´ — agus eisı´odh fo´ gra Tuigim go ndeimhnı´onn an tuairisc is pra´inne ag Comhairle Chondae na Gaillimhe ag deireannaı´ o´ n Ghnı´omhaireacht um Chosaint ra´ le muintir na ha´ite gan an t-uisce a o´ lno´ ,ara Comhshaoil, EPA, nach sa´raı´onn sola´thair uisce laghad, e´ a bhruith agus a bheith an-chu´ ramach. na Ceathru´ n Rua na tomhaisı´ sla´inte poiblı´ ata´ I nda´irı´re, bhı´ daoine scanraithe roimhe sin. Nı´ leagtha sı´os d’uisce ino´ lta. Tuigim gur de bharr hionann uisce u´ r glan agus uisce ata´ la´nde faidhb theicniu´ lare´itı´odh chomh tapaidh as a chlo´ irı´n. Is a´bhar nimhneach e´ clo´ irı´n go fad- b’fhe´idir a bhı´ an co´ ras uisce seo as eagar go te´armach agus nı´ cheart an droch-sce´al seo a sealadach i mı´ na Feabhra seo chaite. De re´ir ghlacadh a thuilleadh. tuairisc o´ n gComhairle chuig an Roinn, bhı´ Mhol an EU petitions committee gur cheart go torthaı´ o´ ta´sta´lach ag an am ar uisce ag teacht o´ mbe´adh an sce´al seo san a´ireamh i measc go leor Loch an Mhuilinn sasu´ il. sce´alta eile faoi thruailliu´ uisce sa tı´r. Bhain na Ghlac me´ le re´amhthuairisc maidir le sce´im ca´sanna eile le sce´imeanna uisce gru´ pa agus nı´ se´arachais na Ceathru´ n Rua i mı´ na Samhna 2003. le co´ ras poiblı´.Fa´gann seo go bhfuil an ca´s seo Ta´ mo Roinn ag feitheamh anois ar doicime´ad eisceachtu´ il ar fad. Ba cheart don Aire Sta´it insint conartha o´ n gComhairle don sce´im seo a 1263 The 4 May 2004. Adjournment 1264

[Mr. Gallagher.] Ta´ an t-airgead ar fa´il o´ n Roinn chun na fheabhso´ idh go mo´ r caighdea´in an uisce sa sce´imeanna seo a tho´ ga´il. De´anfar scru´ du´ cheantar. pra´inneach sa Roinn ar na doicime´id o´ n chomhairle chondae a luaithe is a faightear iad Mr. Sargent: Bhı´ se´ le bheith re´idhimı´ anseo. Feabhra. Mr. Gallagher: Ta´ to´ ga´il na sce´ime seo freisin The Da´il adjourned at 8.55 p.m. until 12.30 p.m. le tosu´ an bhliain seo chugainn. on Wednesday, 5 May 2004. 1265 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1266

Written Answers. Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): I propose to take Questions Nos. 48 and 83 ———— together. A contract was signed with national car testing The following are questions tabled by Members service, NCTS, in December 1998 to provide a for written response and the ministerial replies car testing service for the State from January 2000 received from the Departments [unrevised]. until 31 December 2009. Under the terms of the contract the performance of NCTS is subject to Questions Nos. 1 to 16, inclusive, answered an annual review which can cover the results of orally. NCT inspections, the results of planned or random sample test inspections, the results of Questions Nos. 17 to 39, inclusive, resubmitted. customer satisfaction surveys, the audited financial statements, the company’s financial Questions Nos. 40 to 43, inclusive, answered position, customer complaints, the extent of orally. compliance with performance standards and quality accreditation matters. Question No. 44 lapsed. The main inputs to the annual review are generated by the Department’s ongoing Questions Nos. 45 and 46 answered orally. supervision of the NCTS with the assistance of a consortium consisting of the Automobile Light Rail Project. Association and PricewaterhouseCoopers. The 47. Mr. Deasy asked the Minister for Transport consortium provides the Department with the the supervision role of his Department in the necessary engineering, financial, legal, operations Luas project; and if he will make a statement on research and market research inputs in order to the matter. [10995/04] gauge the company’s performance against the specified performance standards. Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): As the In addition, the contract provides for a mid- Deputy will be aware, the Railway Procurement term review to take place five years into the Agency which is under the auspices of my contract that is, at the end of 2004. While the mid- Department is responsible for the delivery of the term review will cover matters dealt with in Luas project. The agency has confirmed that it annual reviews, its overall focus will be more complies with the requirements of the code of strategic in nature. It is my intention prior to the practice for the governance of State bodies, mid-term review to seek comments from all including conformity with the guidelines for the interested parties for consideration as part of appraisal and management of capital expenditure the review. in the public sector. I have no plans to review the criteria for refusal A light rail monitoring committee is in place of a NCT certificate. The national car test was and comprises representatives of my Department, introduced in order to implement the the Department of Finance and the Railway requirements of EU Directive 96/96/EC relating Procurement Agency. Independent technical to the roadworthiness testing of passenger cars. experts, who report to the Department on a The directive specifies the items to be tested as monthly basis, assist the light rail monitoring part of a vehicle test. The NCT reflects both the committee. The RPA also report on programme requirements of the directive and those laid down and budgetary issues to my Department on a in national regulations relating to the standards monthly basis. which a vehicle must meet for use on a public As regards the supervision of safety, I refer the road. Deputy to my reply to Question No. 58 of today. Luas passenger services will commence on the Road Safety. Tallaght line at the end of August 2004 and on 49. Mr. Hogan asked the Minister for the Sandyford line at the end of June 2004. The Transport when the fifth progress report on the RPA has informed me that the project is within road to safety will be published; and if he will the \691 million budget and \84 million risk make a statement on the matter. [11019/04] provision as notified to the Government in 2002. 66. Mr. Gilmore asked the Minister for National Car Test. Transport when he plans to publish his new three year road safety strategy; his views on whether 48. Mr. Neville asked the Minister for the absence of a new road safety strategy is Transport the plans he has to review the pass and contributing to increased deaths on roads; and if fail criteria of the NCT; and if he will make a he will make a statement on the matter. statement on the matter. [10984/04] [12489/04] 83. Mr. Neville asked the Minister for 68. Mr. Cuffe asked the Minister for Transport Transport the plans he has to review the NCT the measures he intends to introduce to reverse contract; and if he will make a statement on the the increase in road fatalities over the past six matter. [10983/04] months. [12544/04] 1267 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1268

111. Mr. McGinley asked the Minister for recommend adjustment to the focus of the Transport when he will publish his new road strategy as necessary. safety strategy; and if he will make a statement I am determined to pursue a strategic approach on the matter. [10989/04] to the improvement of road safety to achieve long term sustainable reductions in road casualties. 125. Mr. Kenny asked the Minister for The forthcoming road safety strategy will set out Transport his future plans for road safety; and if a comprehensive range of measures to ensure he will make a statement on the matter. that we can build on the success of recent years [10988/04] — a reduction from 472 road fatalities in 1997 to Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): I 339 in 2003 — a fall of 28%, over a period when propose to take Questions Nos. 49, 66, 68, 111 the number of vehicles, drivers and kilometres and 125 together. travelled on our roads have increased The programme for Government states that a significantly. three year road safety strategy will be developed Rail Network. and will target speeding, drink-driving, seat-belt wearing and pedestrian safety in order to reduce 50. Mr. Stanton asked the Minister for deaths and injuries. At my request, the high level Transport his views on the need to reopen the group on road safety has prepared a draft new Cork-Midleton rail link; if further progress has strategy for the period 2004-06 and I have been made in this regard; and if he will make a recently received approval from Government to statement on the matter. [12473/04] publish the strategy. Arrangements are being put 221. Mr. Stanton asked the Minister for in place to provide for printing and publishing of Transport the progress that has been made in the the document as soon as possible. plans to reopen the rail link to Midleton in east The preparation of the new strategy has taken Cork; and if he will make a statement on the account of the achievements in meeting the matter. [12743/04] targets set out in the road to safety strategy 1998- 2002, a comprehensive review of that strategy, Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): I further positive trends established in 2003, and propose to take Questions Nos. 50 and 221 the evolving developments in relation to the EU together. third road safety action plan. I have recently received detailed proposals from Irish Rail for the reopening of the Cork to The strategy, which includes a report on Midleton line, as part of the implementation of progress achieved during the term of the previous the Cork area strategic plan. The projected cost strategy, will outline a range of issues that it is of the entire project is \115 million in two phases: intended will be pursued over the period in phase 1 — \89.7 million for start-up of services question. In overall terms, measures will focus on in 2008 and phase 2 — \25.3 million for further the areas of education, enforcement, engineering enhancements after 2008. These figures are and legislation and will target the key areas of inclusive of VAT and provide for rolling stock, speeding, driving while intoxicated and seat-belt signalling upgrades, new stations, track laying and wearing. park and ride facilities. New legislation is being prepared in my On the Mallow-Cork section, part of the main Department which will provide support for the Dublin-Cork line, new stations with park and ride deployment of key initiatives in the area of speed facilities, are planned for Kilbarry and Blarney. limits and drink driving and will further enhance Stations on the Midleton line are proposed at the enforcement capacity of the Garda Sı´ocha´na. Carrigtwohill, Midleton and Dunkettle. I propose Government approval to the general scheme for to bring to Government shortly proposals in the that legislation was given last Tuesday and I matter. intend to bring the Bill before the Oireachtas during the current session. Penalty Points System. The number of fatalities resulting from road 51. Mr. Deenihan asked the Minister for collisions since the start of the year is a cause of Transport the plans he has to review the penalty particular concern. The total for the first four points system. [11011/04] months is 28 higher than for the same period last year. This situation has been exacerbated by the 60. Mr. Kehoe asked the Minister for Transport fact that nine lives were lost in two tragic when he intends to roll out the other offences incidents of which the House will be aware. under the penalty points system; and if he will The difficult start to 2004 will be given make a statement on the matter. [11020/04] particular consideration by the high level group 61. Mr. Costello asked the Minister for to ensure that the measures recommended in the Transport his views on whether the increased new strategy will be implemented as quickly as number of road deaths recorded in 2004 is due in possible. In addition, the group will monitor the part to drivers paying less heed to the threat of ongoing effects of those measures and penalty points and therefore ignoring speed 1269 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1270 limits; his plans to extend the penalty points 65. Mr. Penrose asked the Minister for system to cover an increased number of offences; Transport the precise amount the Government and if he will make a statement on the matter. has allocated to subsidise each passenger [12488/04] travelling between Dublin and the Galway, Kerry, Sligo, Donegal, and Knock regional 73. Mr. Stagg asked the Minister for Transport the number of drivers who have been disqualified airports for the past five years; and if he will make from driving under the penalty points system up a statement on the matter. [12529/04] to the latest date for which figures are available; Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): I when he expects to expand the number of propose to take Questions Nos. 52, 64 and 65 offences for which penalty points can be awarded; together. and if he will make a statement on the matter. The programme for Government provides for [12521/04] the continued support of our six regional airports. Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): I My Department provides a range of financial propose to take Questions Nos. 51, 60, 61 and mechanisms in support of this objective, but it is 73 together. important to note that the regional airports are Penalty points are being applied to the driving not in receipt of state subvention. licence records of those convicted of speeding, With regard to capital funding, grant-aid of seat belt wearing and insurance offences, and to approximately \9 million has already been paid those who pay a fixed charge to the gardaı´, in the to the regional airports under first round case of speeding and seat belt wearing offences, allocations of the regional airports measure of the in order to prevent the instigation of court NDP. The primary objective of this measure is to proceedings. facilitate continued safe and viable operations at The full application of the penalty points the regional airports. A further round of projects system will be achieved when the relevant IT will be considered for funding under the measure systems being developed by the Department of later this year. Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the gardaı´ My Department also administers a grant are completed. The question of reviewing the scheme to assist the regional airports with system will be considered against the background marketing, safety and security related current of its full operation. expenditure. The total amount provisionally It is now one year and five months since allocated in the Estimates for 2004 is \2.24 penalty points were first introduced. At the 29 million and the individual amounts for each April 2004 over 144,000 drivers have received airport will be determined shortly. penalty points since the introduction of the EU Council Regulation (EEC) No. 2408/92 system in October 2002, including one driver who allows member states to establish a PSO in had reached the 12 point threshold which leads to respect of scheduled air services to an airport automatic disqualification. I intend to introduce serving a peripheral or development region penalty points for careless driving with effect where such air services are considered essential from 1 June 2004. This measure should have a for the economic development of the regions further positive influence on the driving concerned and where air carriers are not behaviour of those who have little regard for road prepared to provide such air services on a traffic law. commercial basis. In accordance with this EU A detailed commentary on the information regulation, the Government has established PSOs available regarding causes of fatal road collisions on routes linking Dublin Airport with the airports to date this year will be prepared by the National in Kerry, Galway, Knock, Sligo and Donegal. Roads Authority, NRA, based on reports from The total cost of air service subvention to PSO the Garda Sı´ocha´na and will be set out in the carriers amounts to over \20 million per annum. NRA road accident facts 2004 publication. It Regarding subsidy per passenger, it is important would be premature for me to speculate as to the to note that subvention is not allocated by contributory causes for those collisions. reference to the number of passengers using the Regional Airports. services per se. The governing regulation stipulates that subvention should be based on the 52. Mr. Stagg asked the Minister for Transport losses actually incurred in operating the routes, if he will make a statement on the future of the taking account of costs and revenues generated regional airports with specific reference to State by the services, subject to a ceiling represented subvention. [12535/04] by the amount put forward in the tender 64. Mr. McCormack asked the Minister for submitted by the successful air carrier during the Transport his plans for the development of tender process. In any event the subvention level regional airports; and if he will make a statement per trip per passenger for the past five years is on the matter. [10990/04] as follows: 1271 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1272

[Mr. Brennan.]

PSO subvention per trip one way — 1999-2003.

1999 2000 2001 2002 2003

\\\\\ Kerry 13.71 12.17 44.27 54.59 55.17 Galway 18.55 18.86 46.57 47.19 51.67 Sligo 41.60 35.75 120.10 101.78 80.49* Donegal 90.57 77.28 119.80 110.78 80.49* Knock — — 233.17 226.58 224.87 Derry — — 113.89 95.10 77.56 *Subvention level for Sligo-Donegal is based on the subvention and passenger levels on the combined Sligo-Donegal contract, hence it is not possible to distinguish individual levels per route.

Following a recent review of the PSO the local and regional planning authorities programme, I am currently exploring ways of incorporating the proposals into regional, county restructuring PSO specifications and contractual and local development plans. Specifically, what is arrangements to ensure that, in the long-term, an needed here is the integration of transport appropriate level of air access to the regions can proposals, such as the WRC, with land use be facilitated on a cost-effective basis, within the strategies that could provide the basis for annual Estimates provision, while also sufficient rail demand that, in turn, would make encouraging maximum commercial initiative on the economic case for proceeding with the the part of the regional airports and air operators. proposal. The viability of all rail proposals, I intend to bring proposals to Government later including the western rail corridor, is crucially this year and to relaunch before the end of the dependent on the creation of sufficient critical year a revised specification for services on all six mass that would justify the development of rail as routes to commence in mid-July 2005. the most appropriate transport option. The Government’s commitment to regional At the invitation of a number of the groups airports will continue. However, the scale of advocating the WRC, I have carried out an Exchequer assistance to the regional airports will extensive tour of the corridor and visited many of have to be carefully assessed in line with general the former railway stations on the line. My airport and aviation policy and the availability of purpose in visiting the west was to meet and listen Exchequer funds. to those who are putting forward this rail proposal and to see for myself what is involved in Rail Network. the restoration of the line. 53. Mr. Ring asked the Minister for Transport During my visit to the former railway station in the plans he has to progress the western rail Kiltimagh I said that I could see the potential of corridor in view of the strategic rail review; and the WRC and that I would wish to provide every if he will make a statement on the matter. possible opportunity for the viability of the case [11010/04] to be brought forward. I am anxious to provide the proponents of the WRC the opportunity to 106. Mr. Wall asked the Minister for Transport put forward their case and to facilitate a thorough the reason for the delay in nominating a examination of the proposal. Accordingly, I chairperson to the working group on the western proposed to establish an expert working group to rail corridor; and when he will do so. [12534/04] examine the potential for the WRC and I will be 113. Mr. Deasy asked the Minister for announcing the composition, remit and Transport if he will approve funding for the chairperson of the group very shortly. western rail corridor; and if he will make a There has been no delay in nominating the statement on the matter. [10991/04] chairman of the group. What is critically Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): I important in these situations is not the speed at propose to take Questions Nos. 53, 106 and 113 which one makes an announcement but rather together. that the appropriate person is selected for the job. The western rail corridor, WRC, was not I am confident that we now have an ideal included in the recommended investment strategy chairman for this group. in the strategic rail review published last year All the regional authorities are currently primarily because it was not supported by finalising regional planning guidelines as part of complementary land use and transportation the implementation of the national spatial strategies. However, the review did conclude that strategy at the regional level. One of the core the proposal was in line with the aims of the issues that the western rail corridor working national spatial strategy. group will have to carefully consider is the extent The review further concluded that the viability to which this rail proposal is facilitated by the of such rail proposals is critically dependent on land use strategies emerging from these 1273 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1274 guidelines. Any decisions in regard to the western 21% increase on 2002 applications. However, rail corridor will take account of the ongoing indications are that applications have now fallen work of the working group. to normally expected levels and I anticipate that the current waiting times will improve over the Light Rail Project. coming year. 54. Mr. Cuffe asked the Minister for Transport Sanction for a bonus scheme for driver testers the predicted annual passenger numbers of each was obtained from the Department of Finance in of the Sandyford and Tallaght Luas lines; and the May 2003. Under the terms of the scheme set out predicted annual passenger numbers for the by the Department of Finance, the bonus scheme initial Luas proposal which was designed in order terminated in November 2003. The potential for that the Luas trams ran from Tallaght to initiating a further bonus scheme in order to Sandyford on one continuous route. [12545/04] address the backlog is being investigated. In addition to the bonus scheme, eight retired driver Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): The testers were re-employed with effect from 13 Railway Procurement Agency’s, RPA, current October 2003. Driver testers continue to deliver estimates of patronage on the Sandyford and additional tests by working overtime on Tallaght lines suggest a total annual patronage of Saturdays and at lunchtime. approximately 20 million passengers when the Preparation of legislation to establish the system is fully operational and established driver testing and standards authority, which will patterns of travel have emerged. take on responsibility for conducting driving tests The original Luas proposal, which W. S. Atkins and will have more flexibility to respond to assessed in 1998, consisted of one line from variations in demand, is at an advanced stage and Tallaght to Dundrum-Balally via the city centre I expect to be in a position to submit the text of with an estimated patronage of 29 million. The the Bill to Government shortly. latter figure is based on a higher level of frequency for the services than that employed in Centre Numbers Average respect of the current project. However, the Awaiting a Weeks current system has been designed to cater for Test Waiting higher frequencies and hence increased usage should the demand so require. North Leinster Finglas 8,683 28 Driving Tests. Dundalk 2,827 35 55. Ms Enright asked the Minister for Mullingar 1,661 32 Transport his plans to address the driving test Navan 4,500 43 backlog; when he plans to introduce legislation; Raheny 7,812 39 and if he will make a statement on the matter. [10987/04] South Leinster Churchtown /Rathgar 11,275 41 74. Mr. J. Bruton asked the Minister for Gorey 2.022 44 Transport the plans if any he has to address the Naas 6,839 46 driving test backlog; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [11006/04] Tullamore 1,717 32 Wicklow 2,354 46 88. Ms Shortall asked the Minister for Tallaght 8,960 47 Transport the number of persons awaiting driving tests at the latest date for which figures are South East available; the current waiting time in each test Carlow 2,623 43 centre; the efforts he and his Department are Clonmel 2,032 44 making to clear the backlog of driving test Dungarvan 1,923 46 applications; and if he will make a statement on Kilkenny 2,378 45 the matter. [12531/04] Nenagh 760 38 Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): I Portlaoise 1,624 49 propose to take Questions Nos. 55, 74 and 88 Thurles 1,254 51 together. Tipperary 1,139 51 The number of applicants awaiting a driving Waterford 3,601 30 test at 26 April 2004 is 120,541. Of these, 17,446 have been given test appointments and a further Wexford 2,430 27 13,835 have indicated that they are currently not South West available to be tested. The current average waiting time and numbers awaiting a test at each Cork 6,613 26 driving test centre as at 26 April 2004 are set out Killarney 2,030 32 in the following table. Kilrush 528 23 The current waiting times are due to the Limerick 4,019 39 unprecedented level of some 234,000 test Mallow 2,076 32 applications received in 2003. This represents a Newcastle West 1,678 28 1275 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1276

Centre Numbers Average alternative to the traffic corps; and if he will make Awaiting a Weeks a statement on the matter. [12528/04] Test Waiting Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): I Shannon 994 40 propose to take Questions Nos. 56, 118 and 119 Skibbereen 1,885 34 together. Tralee 1,956 37 The programme for Government contains a commitment relating to the establishment of a West dedicated traffic corps. As I have already Athlone 1,080 14 indicated in this House, I support the Birr 1,126 32 implementation of this proposal through the Castlebar 2,143 32 formation of a corps that will be separately Clifden 358 16 identifiable and visible. A consultation process Ennis 908 11 involving my Department, the Department of Galway 2,781 29 Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Garda Loughrea 856 12 Sı´ocha´na regarding the establishment of a Roscommon 1,028 24 dedicated traffic corps is being progressed. Tuam 1,143 27 I do not recall the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform indicating that the North West establishment of a traffic corps was not an option Ballina 1,170 33 due to legal difficulties. However, I refer the Buncrana 591 22 Deputies to the Minister’s reply to a Parliamentary Question on 27 April where he Carrick-on-Shannon 1,265 35 also referred to the ongoing discussions to which Cavan 1,927 43 I have referred. Donegal 1,051 23 The question of the relationship that a Letterkenny 1,997 36 dedicated traffic corps will have with the Garda Longford 988 35 and, in particular, whether it will be under the Monaghan 1,266 40 overall control of the Commissioner is central to Sligo 1,393 31 the development of this proposal. Note: the average waiting time is derived having regard to The establishment of a corps that is wholly waiting times experienced by individual applicants who have independent of the Garda would face formidable undergone a driving test over the previous four week period hurdles. The powers available to members of such in the test centre. an independent force would need careful consideration and there is the overriding issue of the capacity of such individuals to engage in more Traffic Corps. general police work. The need for consideration 56. Mr. O’Shea asked the Minister for of this issue was referred to by the Minister for Transport if he has held talks recently with Justice, Equality and Law Reform on 27 April. representatives from the Department of the Taoiseach and the Department of Justice, Infrastructural Projects. Equality and Law Reform on the introduction of 57. Mr. R. Bruton asked the Minister for the dedicated traffic corps; if his attention has Transport the financial mechanisms in place to been drawn to recent comments from the review infrastructural projects; and if he will Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform make a statement on the matter. [10998/04] that the traffic corps was not an option due to legal difficulties, and from the Taoiseach that he Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): As I was still fully committed to the introduction of stated in previous replies to this question, all the traffic corps; and if he will make a statement major projects are subject to detailed assessment on the matter. [12525/04] and evaluation including, at key stages, cost benefit analysis, in accordance with Department 118. Mr. O’Shea asked the Minister for of Finance guidelines on the appraisal and Transport the position regarding plans for the management of capital projects. introduction of the dedicated road traffic corps as The development of PPP projects takes stated in An Agreed Programme for account of Department of Finance interim Government; and if he will make a statement on guidelines on the assessment, appraisal and the matter. [12524/04] procurement of PPP projects. These guidelines focus on ensuring that the use of the PPP 119. Mr. Penrose asked the Minister for approach is justified on a value for money basis. Transport his views on whether recent comments In March 2003, at my request, a new control from the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law system for major infrastructure projects was put Reform that the introduction of a dedicated in place in my Department. The infrastructure traffic corps was no longer a viable option projects include national road construction, the represents an abandonment of the pledge given Dublin Port tunnel, CIE and Luas projects. I have in An Agreed Programme for Government for its received monthly reports on each of these introduction; the plans he has to find an 1277 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1278 projects since April. It is my intention to collate is safe and suitable and that the safety and publish the reports at an appropriate time. management systems will be appropriate to The State bodies under the aegis of my ensure safe operation of the railway. Department, which are responsible for the The Railway Procurement Agency and Connex delivery of capital infrastructure are obliged to have both submitted draft safety cases to the comply with the requirements of the code of railway inspecting officers. There is currently no practice for the governance of State bodies, legal requirement to submit these documents. including conformity with the guidelines for the That requirement is contained in the Railway appraisal and management of capital expenditure Safety Bill, which is not yet law. However, the in the public sector. parties concerned agreed to adopt the safety case In addition to the above procedures, in regard approach as the means by which the RPA and to Luas, a light rail monitoring committee is in Connex will satisfy the requirements of railway place comprising representatives of my inspecting officers under the 2001 Act. Department, the Department of Finance and the A safety case is a document which describes Railway Procurement Agency. It is assisted by how a railway undertaking manages safety in all independent technical experts who report to the of its activities. The safety case submitted by the Department on a monthly basis. The Railway Railway Procurement Agency is being used to Procurement Agency also report on programme demonstrate the safety of the infrastructure and and budgetary issues to my Department on a rolling stock, while the Connex safety case relates monthly basis. My Department continuously to the safety management systems to be used to reviews this and other information on the Luas ensure safety of tram movements and passenger project to ensure that the highest standards of services. project management are adhered to by the The railway inspecting officers are in regular agency. Indeed, my Department reported to contact with the RPA and Connex regarding the Government at critical stages of the Luas project. draft safety cases and have given phased This included reporting on physical progress and approvals to the testing and commissioning of budgetary considerations. various elements of the Luas system. Such phased My Department also has in place an investment approvals will continue and full revenue service monitoring unit charged with overseeing the can only commence financial and physical progress of rail and bus once the relevant approval under section 51 of infrastructure projects and ensuring the effective the 2001 Act has been given. and timely financial reporting of capital expenditure by the CIE group of companies to State Airports. the Department. The investment monitoring unit also engages consultants to carry out an audit of 59. Mr. J. Higgins asked the Minister for expenditure claims submitted to the Department Transport if he will report on his recent contacts seeking draw down of Exchequer and EU with SIPTU regarding strike action at the funding under the National Development Plan airports; and if he will make a statement on the 2000-2006. matter. [9090/04] The implementation of the national roads and 89. Ms O’Sullivan asked the Minister for public transport investment programmes is Transport his views on whether his plan for the further monitored by my Department through break up of Aer Rianta is having an adverse the monitoring committee of the economic and effect on jobs at Shannon; and if he will make a social infrastructure OP which is representative statement on the matter. [12491/04] of Departments, implementing agencies and social partners and which meets twice yearly to 91. Ms B. Moynihan-Cronin asked the Minister consider progress reports on the implementation for Transport his plans for the future of the Great of the investment programmes. Southern Hotels Group in the context of his proposals to restructure Aer Rianta; and if he will Light Rail Project. make a statement on the matter. [12496/04] 58. Mr. G. Mitchell asked the Minister for 96. Mr. Allen asked the Minister for Transport Transport if he has received a report from the his plans for Cork Airport; and if he will make a Luas project team on the safety of the Luas lines; statement on the matter. [11004/04] and if he will make a statement on the matter. 107. Mr. Noonan asked the Minister for [11046/04] Transport his plans for Shannon Airport; and if Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): Section he will make a statement on the matter. 51 of the Transport (Railway Infrastructure) Act [11002/04] 2001 provides that the Luas system may not be 123. Ms Enright asked the Minister for opened for testing and commissioning or for Transport his plans for Dublin Airport; and if he passenger services until it has been demonstrated will make a statement on the matter. [11003/04] to the satisfaction of an inspector appointed by the Minister under the regulation of Railway Act 129. Mr. M. Higgins asked the Minister for 1871, that is, my Department’s railway inspecting Transport the position with regard to his officers, that the infrastructure and rolling stock proposals for the break-up of Aer Rianta; and if 1279 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1280

[Mr. M. Higgins.] intention to have the legislation enacted before he will make a statement on the matter. the summer recess. [12494/04] Questions Nos. 60 and 61 answered with Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): I Question No. 51. propose to take Questions Nos. 59, 89, 91, 96, 107, 123 and 129 together. Drink Driving Convictions. I was very pleased SIPTU decided to call off its threatened industrial action at the State 62. Ms Burton asked the Minister for Transport airports in the middle of March last and both I the number of legal challenges to drink driving and senior officials in my Department will convictions which are under way following the maintain the process of full engagement with the successful case of seven drivers who had Aer Rianta unions to deal with issues of concern convictions quashed due to the absence of to workers in the company arising from the independent analysis of their breath specimens; ongoing implementation of the Government and if he will make a statement on the matter. decision to restructure the airports. [12485/04] I have given repeated assurances to ICTU and 127. Mr. Broughan asked the Minister for the Aer Rianta unions that there will not be any Transport the position in regard to the use of diminution in the tenure or the terms and intoximeters by gardaı´ following the successful conditions of employment of workers in the case of seven drivers who had drink driving company on transfer to the new independent convictions quashed after claiming there was no authorities for Dublin, Shannon and Cork means of independent analysis of a breath Airports. I have also undertaken, subject to specimen; if he has plans to allow independent agreeing suitable arrangements to deal with analysis of breath specimens; and if he will make commercially sensitive material, to make a statement on the matter. [12484/04] available key financial information to the trade unions in the context of the current engagement Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): I process, which is being facilitated by the Labour propose to take Questions Nos. 62 and 127 Relations Commission, before the text of the together. amending legislation to give effect to the I am aware of reports of a decision taken in restructuring is approved by the Government. the District Court relating to seven drink driving The information relating to the three airports was cases. It would be inappropriate for me to provided to the union’s financial advisers last comment on a decision taken in the courts. I Friday and I have sought a response over the next understand that there are at present 80 cases two weeks. before the High Court relating to the operation With regard to Shannon, Dublin and Cork of the evidential breath testing programme. The Airports, the numbers employed in future years issues raised in these cases include the question of will depend on a number of factors, including the the availability of the option for an independent business plans and strategies of the new analysis of a breath sample. I understand that independent boards and the efforts of the boards, these cases will be heard later this month. I will management and staff to grow existing services consider the need for any action, including in the and attract new services. I have made it clear that areas of policy, legislation or enforcement in the I believe that each of the three airports, including light of careful consideration of the outcome of Shannon, will be a commercial success and will the High Court cases. maximise sustainable employment both within the airport companies themselves and in their Bus Stops. catchment areas. 63. Mr. Connaughton asked the Minister for The new arrangements are designed to Transport if he has satisfied himself with the strengthen and expand each of three airports and procedure for the location of bus stops; and if he to give both Shannon and Cork a fresh start will make a statement on the matter. [11024/04] under strong and visionary leadership. Through more focused commercial operation, all three 86. Mr. Perry asked the Minister for Transport airports can perform better and each can play a if he has satisfied himself with the procedure for greater role in stimulating and supporting the location of bus termini; and if he will make a regional and national economic activity to the statement on the matter. [11027/04] benefit of their customers, both airlines and 104. Mr. P. McGrath asked the Minister for passengers, and of Irish tourism, trade and Transport the plans he has to review the industry. Issues relating to Aer Rianta’s main procedure for the location of bus stops; and if he subsidiaries such as Aer Rianta International and will make a statement on the matter. [11022/04] the Great Southern Hotels Group will be carefully considered in the course of the 126. Mr. Murphy asked the Minister for restructuring process. Transport the plans he has to review the In the coming weeks, I will be seeking procedure for the location of bus termini; and if Government approval for the publication of the he will make a statement on the matter. Bill to give effect to the restructuring and it is my [11025/04] 1281 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1282

Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): I Transport the position in regard to motorists who propose to take Questions Nos. 63, 86, 104 and received endorsements, penalty points and fines 126 together. for speeding in urban areas in south Dublin in The power to determine the locations for the which new speed limits were imposed without provision of bus stops and termini is vested in the proper by-laws; the number of motorists who Garda Commissioner under section 85 of the received endorsements, penalty points, and fines Road Traffic Act 1961. Under that section the in these areas who may be entitled to appeal the Commissioner may issue a direction to a bus punishment; the timeframe for clearing all operator identifying the specific location of bus endorsements, penalty points and fines; if he has stops and termini in respect of any bus route and ensured that the new limits have been imposed in that context may determine that certain stops with the proper by-laws; and if he will make a may only be used for passengers boarding or statement on the matter. [12483/04] leaving buses. I understand that the Garda Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): The engages in a consultation process with both the Road Traffic Acts provide for the direct local authority and the bus service provider application of speed limits to all roads. Under the before issuing a direction under section 85. In provisions of the Road Traffic Act 1994, separate addition, section 86 of the 1961 Act empowers the speed limits apply to roads in built up areas, to Commissioner to make by-laws relating to the use roads outside such areas generally and a specific of bus stops and termini and such by-laws have speed limit applies to motorways. been in place since 1962. The 1994 Act also provides that local The Road Traffic Act 2002 introduces a authorities may make by-laws through which the number of significant changes to the provisions speed limit that apply on a default basis under established in the 1961 Act. In the first instance, that Act can be changed in respect of roads section 16 of the 2002 Act provides that specified in such by-laws. These bylaws are made responsibility for the determination of the by the elected members of the local authorities location of bus stops and termini will be following consultation with the Garda transferred from the Garda Commissioner to Commissioner and, in the case of national roads, road authorities. This new approach reflects the with the consent of the National Roads evolution of policy and the development of the Authority. role of local authorities generally in relation to traffic regulation and management since the Where a person is detected exceeding a speed passage of the 1961 Act. limit, he or she is offered the opportunity to pay a fixed charge. The making of such a payment Section 20 of the 2002 Act provides that the will ensure that the matter will not proceed to a Minister for Transport will in future provide for hearing before a court. As a consequence of the the regulation of the use of bus stops and termini. payment of a fixed charge in respect of a speeding This is to ensure that the controls to be applied offence, the licence record of the person is to the use of facilities will be contained in the endorsed with two penalty points. If, however, same statutory framework that applies to traffic the matter proceeds to court and the person is regulation generally. convicted, four penalty points will be endorsed. Arising out of the recent tragic accident on There is no basis for a refund of a fixed Wellington Quay, Dublin on 21 February last a payment provided for in the Road Traffic Acts. Garda investigation is underway and, in addition, The only basis for the removal of penalty points Dublin Bus is undertaking its own company provided for in the Act is where a court accepts inquiry to determine the cause and the circum- a late appeal from a person convicted of a penalty stances surrounding the accident. The inquiry is point offence and following the hearing of the investigating the circumstances of the accident to appeal sets aside the original conviction. To date establish its causes and any contributory factors no driver has had penalty points removed from and will make recommendations to prevent a their driving licence record. recurrence. Where such recommendations refer As the payment of fixed charge is in effect an to the need for new statutory controls on traffic, acceptance by the person that he or she has including any recommendations on the location breached a speed limit, there can be no question of bus stop, these will inform the development of of the making of a refund and that principle is the new statutory arrangements envisaged under provided for in section 11 of the Road Traffic Act the Road Traffic Act 2002 and appropriate legis- 2002, which provides the legislative basis for the lative changes will be pursued. operation of the fixed charge system. The enforcement of speed limits, whether applied Questions Nos. 64 and 65 answered with directly through the 1994 Act or by way of by- Question No. 52. laws made under that Act, is a matter for the gardaı´. Question No. 66 answered with Question While I have no direct function in relation to No. 49. the making of speed limit by-laws, my Department has, in the context of the review of Speed Limits. speed limits which will give rise to the 67. Mr. Broughan asked the Minister for introduction later this year of a new speed limit 1283 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1284

[Mr. Brennan.] I have received representations seeking to system based on metric values, written to all extend access to bus lanes to a wide range of county and city councils advising them of the other road users, including hackney and need to ensure that all of the speed limits limousine operators and motorcyclists. I do not deployed in their areas are supported by the have any immediate proposals to review the appropriate legal structure. By way of response question of extending access to bus lanes to other to that advice, my Department was informed by road users. However, as I have already indicated South Dublin County Council that by-laws were on previous occasions in the House, I will review in place to support speed limits in their area. the question when the number of bus lanes has doubled. Question No. 68 answered with Question No. 49. Driving Tests. 71. Mr. Naughten asked the Minister for Driving Licences. Transport the plans he has to reform the driving 69. Mr. Crawford asked the Minister for test; and if he will make a statement on the Transport the action he is taking to put matter. [11007/04] procedures in place for lost driving licences when there is no record of a licence having been issued; Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): The and if he will make a statement on the matter. requirements of the practical driving test are set [11035/04] out in the relevant EU directive. A number of improvements to the practical driving test are in 90. Mr. O’Dowd asked the Minister for the course of implementation on foot of Transport the action he is taking to put amendments agreed at EU level. These changes procedures in place for lost driving licences; and relate to random checks on mechanical aspects of if he will make a statement on the matter. vehicles which have a bearing on road safety such [11034/04] as tyres, steering, brakes, engine oil, coolant, washer fluid, lights, reflectors, indicators and 131. Mr. Allen asked the Minister for horn. A study to assess the impact of these Transport the plans he has to put mechanisms in additional requirements has been completed and place for when the issuing authority has no record the results are currently being assessed by my of a driving licence; and if he will make a Department. In addition, my Department, in statement on the matter. [10992/04] conjunction with the Office of Public Works, is Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): I arranging for the implementation of propose to take Questions Nos. 69, 90 and 131 improvements to truck tests, that is, parking together. safely for loading and unloading at a loading Under the Road Traffic Act 1961 and the Road ramp and coupling and uncoupling the vehicle. Traffic (Licensing of Drivers) Regulations 1999 to 2001, it is a matter for the appropriate licensing Rail Network. authority to determine the eligibility of a person 72. Mr. Timmins asked the Minister for for a duplicate driving licence, and to issue Transport his plans for the development of the licences. I have no plans to change this Phoenix Park tunnel; if he has had discussions arrangement. with Irish Rail on the issue; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [11030/04] Traffic Management. Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): Irish 70. Mr. G. Mitchell asked the Minister for Rail recently completed a study on the feasibility Transport if motorbikes will be allowed to use of providing an interconnector tunnel from bus lanes by amending regulations; and if he will Heuston Station to the docklands. At my request, make a statement on the matter. [11044/04] this study also examined the question of Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): The use increased use of the Phoenix Park tunnel for of bus lanes is provided for in the Road Traffic passenger services between Connolly and (Traffic and Parking) Regulations 1997, the Heuston stations. The completed study has been primary purpose of which is to facilitate and submitted to my Department and discussions promote bus based public transport. These have taken place with Irish Rail, in particular, in regulations generally limit the use of bus lanes to regard to the timescale for the commencement of buses and, in the case of with-flow bus lanes, to work on the project. The company is looking at cyclists. Having regard to the role of taxis in the potential for making greater use of the providing on-street immediate hire service, an Phoenix Park tunnel when the second phase of exemption to that limitation is allowed in respect the DART upgrade programme is completed in of taxis when they are being used in the course 2007 and extra rail paths into Connolly Station of business. An overriding concern is the carrying become available. capacity of bus lanes and the potential that their primary role to provide bus priority could be Question No. 73 answered with Question undermined if other vehicles are allowed access. No. 51. 1285 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1286

Question No. 74 answered with Question metro in the context of the wider transport needs No. 55. of the greater Dublin area. I expect to bring these proposals to the Government shortly. 75. Ms Lynch asked the Minister for Transport I understand that the metro would take when he expects to bring forward to Cabinet approximately four years to build. However, as proposals for the construction of an underground the project would be a public private partnership, rail system for Dublin; the expected cost and there is a strong incentive for the bidders to timeframe for construction of the metro; and if he minimise the construction period as payment will will make a statement on the matter. [12512/04] not commence until the service is in operation. 93. Mr. Quinn asked the Minister for Transport The precise route, number of stations and the proposed route of the new underground rail hence costs would depend on a number of factors, system for Dublin; the number of stations there including the Government decision; geo-technical will be along the proposed route; and if he will surveys; negotiations with bidders; and railway make a statement on the matter. [12520/04] order process, including the public enquiry. In 100. Ms O. Mitchell asked the Minister for preparing a submission for the Government on Transport his plans for the development of the this matter, the merits of all alternative solutions airport metro; and if he will make a statement on and routes will be considered. Again, it would not the matter. [10985/04] be appropriate for me to comment on any of these alternatives in advance of Government 102. Mr. Coveney asked the Minister for deliberations on the matter. Transport his plans for the development of the metro; and if he will make a statement on the Road Safety. matter. [11013/04] 76. Mr. Rabbitte asked the Minister for 117. Mr. Connaughton asked the Minister for Transport the number of road deaths that have Transport his plans for the development of the occurred here in 2004 up to the latest date for metro; and if he will make a statement on the which figures are available; the way in which matter. [11029/04] these contrast to each of the past five years; and if he will make a statement on the matter. 121. Mr. Timmins asked the Minister for [12530/04] Transport if he has satisfied himself that he can deliver the Dublin metro by 2007; and if he will Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): make a statement on the matter. [11031/04] Statistics relating to road accidents, based on information provided by the Garda Sı´ocha´na, are Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): I published by the National Roads Authority in its propose to take Questions Nos. 75, 93, 100, 102, annual road accident facts reports. The most 117 and 121 together. recent report is in respect of 2002 and that report, The programme for Government contains a with reports relating to previous years, are commitment to develop a metro with a link to available in the Oireachtas Library. Dublin Airport. I have received the revised The following table gives the number of road outline business case for line 1 of the metro from deaths that have occurred here during the first the Railway Procurement Agency, RPA, which four months of 2004 and a comparison with the involves a line from the airport to the city centre. same periods in 2000-03. The figures shown for I am currently finalising my proposals on the 2003 and 2004 are provisional.

1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004

January 30 32 30 35 20 32 February 34 41 38 33 21 39 March 35 23 31 34 33 25 April 31 42 22 32 23 29*

Totals 130 138 121 134 97 125 *as of 30 April 2004

Pensions Provision. CIE parent company as a legal entity with adequate source of funding to meet these 77. Mr. S. Ryan asked the Minister for commitments in view of his proposals for the Transport the alternative legislative restructuring of CIE, including the proposal to arrangements he will put in place to safeguard the abolish the parent company CIE. [12471/04] present and future entitlements of CIE pensioners of all grades, having regard to the Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): Future statutory guarantees relating to the solvency of pension arrangements are being considered as the two company funds and annual review of part of the detailed preparatory work on the pensions as contained in statutory instruments restructuring of CIE. The objective of that work (details supplied) which currently rest with the is that the current position in relation to pension 1287 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1288

[Mr. Brennan.] development is dependent on a range of factors, entitlements and pension security should including market conditions at the time of continue to obtain for the future. disposal or development. Several sites have by now been disposed of by the company, and in Integrated Ticketing. other cases joint venture development has been adopted as the preferred option. No decisions 78. Mr. Murphy asked the Minister for have been taken on the reduction of debt as part Transport if he intends to bring forward of the detailed preparatory work on the integrated ticketing and smartcard technologies; restructuring of CIE. if money has been allocated for this purpose in his Department’s Estimates for 2004; and if he Road Safety. will make a statement on the matter. [11026/04] 80. Mr. Howlin asked the Minister for 87. Mr. P. McGrath asked the Minister for Transport his views on recent comments by the Transport if he intends to bring forward chairman of the Road Safety Council that the integrated ticketing and smartcard technologies; absence of a central budget for road safety is and if he will make a statement on the matter. responsible for inadequate funding of road safety [11023/04] schemes; and if he will make a statement on the Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): I matter. [12509/04] propose to take Questions Nos. 78 and 87 Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): The together. development of policies on road safety is carried The Railway Procurement Agency, RPA, has out on a co-ordinated basis in the context of the statutory responsibility for the implementation of road safety strategy by the high level group on an integrated ticketing system based on road safety, on which the National Safety Council smartcard technologies for initial deployment in is represented. the Dublin area. The RPA has set a target date Over the lifetime of the first Government of end 2005 for the launch of the full smartcard- strategy on road Safety we have seen significant based integrated ticketing system in Dublin. It investment in Garda enforcement assets, we have continues to examine all options to expedite the provided the financial support necessary for the delivery of integrated ticketing with a view to production and presentation of some of the most bringing forward the proposed launch date. A effective public awareness campaigns ever first step was the launch last month of a mounted in regard to road safety, many of which smartcard ticketing system by a private operator, have received international recognition for their Morton’s, on its services while another important quality and focus. We have provided for major step will be the launch later this year by the RPA investment in programmes to address road of smartcards on Luas services with Dublin Bus collision black spots and to deploy traffic introducing its system next year. calming measures. In the meantime, integrated tickets, based on Exchequer funding in respect of 2004 for road magnet strip technology, are available for travel safety agencies under the aegis of the on Dublin Bus and Irish Rail services and I Department of Transport amounts to a total of understand that the Railway Procurement \22,488,000. In addition to Exchequer funding, Agency is about to conclude a similar the Irish Insurance Federation contributes to the arrangement with both companies in respect of National Safety Council’s budget and funding is Luas services. The allocation for integrated also received from sponsorship sources. The ticketing in the 2004 Estimates for my \ overall Exchequer provision for road Department is 9.5 million. improvement and maintenance works in 2004 on the national road network is \1,280 million. This Property Disposal. compares with an expenditure outturn of \1,223 79. Ms Burton asked the Minister for Transport million in 2003 and \330.6 million in 1997. if he intends requesting CIE to sell off some of Local authorities receive funding for road its property, estimated at \500 million, to reduce improvements and remedial measures on non- its debt; if such a request is a precursor to national roads which is not included in this figure. reducing CIE’s debt in advance of his plan to In addition, the funding made available for Garda break up the company; and if he will make a operations supports the enforcement of road statement on the matter. [12486/04] traffic law. That is a matter for the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): I have In overall terms, there is significant financial been encouraging CIE to dispose of properties resources available to support the delivery of the which are surplus to operating requirements with road safety strategy under the auspices of the a view to generating funds for major capital various bodies tasked with the delivery of each of investment and to develop properties which have the elements of that strategy. the potential to generate additional income for the group. While CIE has the potential to Transport Service Regulation. generate significant funds from property, any particular decision on any disposal or 81. Mr. Howlin asked the Minister for 1289 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1290

Transport if he has plans to permit private bus Transport his views on Iarnro´ dE´ ireann proposals operators to pick up passengers on existing CIE for a new integrated greater Dublin commuter routes; and if he will make a statement on the rail system, involving the construction of two new matter. [12506/04] DART lines; his views on whether such proposals have the potential to ease congestion on existing Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): My rail services; if he has received such proposals proposals in regard to regulatory reform of the from Iarnro´ dE´ ireann; if Iarnro´ dE´ ireann has bus market in the greater Dublin area were set supplied an estimated cost or timeframe for out in my November 2002 statement to the Public construction of the new rail system; and if he will Transport Partnership Forum and are currently make a statement on the matter. [12497/04] the subject of consultations with the trade unions. The detailed provisions in regard to the proposed Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): Irish new regulatory regime for bus services, both in Rail has developed proposals for an integrated Dublin and the rest of the country, will be set out rail network for the greater Dublin area for the in legislation which I plan to have enacted during period up to 2010. The proposals have a 2004. However, in regard to the existing preliminary outline cost of implementation of \3 regulatory regime, the Road Transport Act 1932 billion. The proposals are being discussed provides for the licensing of private operators to between my Department and the company at operate coach and bus services within the State. present in the context of: the overall capital The Department is required under section envelope available for public transport over the 11(3)(a) of the 1932 Act to apply a public interest coming years; the priorities in the DTO strategy, test to applications for licences. The Minister Platform for Change, and the regional planning must consider whether the service proposed is in guidelines for the greater Dublin area; and the the public interest having regard to the passenger need to achieve a modal shift in favour of public road services and other forms of passenger transport so as to tackle congestion. My transport available to the public on or in the Department is also discussing priorities for public neighbourhood of the route of the proposed transport with the other State agencies involved service. and I expect that this exercise will be concluded Generally, the “public interest” is interpreted shortly. as being best served by enhancing and facilitating an expansion of the range of public transport Dublin Port Tunnel. services available to the public as opposed to allowing unrestricted competition for market 85. Mr. Quinn asked the Minister for Transport share. The Department also examines the position with regard to the building of the applications for added value to the public in Dublin Port tunnel; the reasons he asked terms of the route and locations to be served, the contractors building the tunnel to give him a timing of services and the days on which services legally binding agreement on the cost and delay are available, in order to maximise the involved in raising the clearance height within the availability, regularity and frequency of service. tunnel; the anticipated cost arising from delays In compliance with the legislation, each case is and extra work involved in the construction of considered on its individual merits and the tunnel; when he expects to make a decision restrictions are placed on licences from time to on this issue; and if he will make a statement on time in an effort to avoid direct conflict between the matter. [12507/04] operators, including the CIE companies, while at 108. Mr. R. Bruton asked the Minister for the same time ensuring the availability of a good Transport his plans to address the height of the range and spread of services to the travelling Dublin Port tunnel; and if he will make a public. These restrictions can, where appropriate, statement on the matter. [10997/04] include conditions attached to a licence restricting an operator in relation to the setting 114. Mr. Gormley asked the Minister for down or picking up of passengers on a particular Transport when he expects the Dublin Port section of a route to avoid conflict with existing tunnel to be open for use; and when a final operators. However on some routes, particularly decision will be made on the maximum height for city services, some degree of shared running is vehicles using the tunnel. [12549/04] unavoidable, particularly where route sharing is Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): I proposed solely as an essential, but incidental, propose to take Questions Nos. 85, 108 and 114 component of the proposed service. together. The position in regard to the height of the Question No. 82 answered with Question tunnel is that my Department appointed No. 46. consultants to review the feasibility, safety implications and cost of raising the height of the Question No. 83 answered with Question Dublin Port tunnel. They were requested to No. 48. review a range of options for increasing the operational height of the tunnel, their feasibility, Rail Network. having regard to the state of implementation of 84. Mr. Gilmore asked the Minister for the current design and build contract and the 1291 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1292

[Mr. Brennan.] president that the effects of the penalty points likely additional costs and impact on the project system have worn off; and if he will make a completion date. statement on the matter. [12522/04] Having reviewed the findings of the report Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): Iamnot further information has been sought from the aware of the recent comments from the President NRA pertaining to the report’s conclusions in of the Association of Garda Sergeants and particular in relation to the costs should the Inspectors calling for a tougher policy on tunnel height be increased. As a result the speeding and drink driving. Speeding and drink contractors have been requested to provide a driving remain two of the most significant fixed price cost for the work involved. Following contributory factors in road collisions. New receipt of this information a decision on the measures to address these issues are contained in height of the Dublin Port tunnel will be made. the new Road Safety Strategy, which is due for I understand from Dublin City Council that the publication shortly. Dublin Port tunnel is expected to be completed In addition, speed limit policy was the subject in July 2005. of a report of a wide-ranging working group who carried out a review of the present speed limits Question No. 86 answered with Question structures last year. New legislation is being No. 63. prepared in my Department, which contains Question No. 87 answered with Question provisions for the implementation of revised No. 78. speed limits structures based on the recommendations made by the group. Question No. 88 answered with Question Government approval to the general scheme for No. 55. that legislation was given last Tuesday and I intend to bring the Bill before the Oireachtas Question No. 89 answered with Question during the current session. No. 59. There is regular contact between the various agencies involved in road safety, including Question No. 90 answered with Question meetings of the high level group on road safety No. 69. on which the Garda Sı´ocha´na are represented. There has been no indication from the Garda Question No. 91 answered with Question authorities of a diminution of the effects of the No. 59. penalty point system.

Question No. 92 answered with Question Question No. 96 answered with Question No. 46. No. 59.

Question No. 93 answered with Question Rural Transport Services. No. 75. 97. Mr. Hayes asked the Minister for Transport his plans to introduce new rural transport Public Transport. initiatives; and if he will make a statement on the 94. Mr. Gormley asked the Minister for matter. [11017/04] Transport when he expects negotiations with the 124. Mr. Hayes asked the Minister for public sector transport unions on the opening up Transport if increased funds will be made of the Dublin and intercity bus markets to available to sustain the pilot schemes for rural conclude; and if he will make a statement on the transport; his views on whether these schemes progress of these negotiations to date. [12550/04] have proved very useful, especially for older rural Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): Talks dwellers; if the Government can justify pulling between officials from my Department and the the finance at this early stage of development; CIE trade unions on public transport reform are and if he will make a statement on the matter. to recommence on 12 May. An intensive schedule [7602/04] of meetings over five full days has been arranged Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): I by the independent chair appointed by the propose to take Questions Nos. 97 and 124 Labour Relations Commission. together. Under the rural transport initiative 34 rural Road Traffic Offences. community groups are currently being financed 95. Ms McManus asked the Minister for to operate pilot rural transport services in their Transport if his attention has been drawn to areas. Area Development Management Limited recent comments from the President of the administers the initiative on behalf of my Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors Department. calling for a tougher policy on speeding and drink Some 2,500 transport services are currently driving, including a “three-strikes-and-you’re- being provided on approximately 380 new rural out” penalty points system; if he plans to consult routes established under the initiative and 20,000 the Garda following reported comments from the people are using the RTI transport services every 1293 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1294 month. The RTI is now operational in almost all Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): I counties and the free travel scheme of the propose to take Questions Nos. 99 and 122 Department of Social and Family Affairs was together. extended to the RTI in 2003. I refer the Deputies to my reply to Priority There has been no reduction in the funding for Question No. 40. the RTI. While the national development plan proposed that \4.4 million be committed for the Question No. 100 answered with Question initiative in the period up to 2006, some \6 No. 75. million has already been spent on it in the two year period up to end 2003 and a further \3 Light Rail Project. million is earmarked for it this year. 101. Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for While there is every indication that the RTI has Transport if he will report on the Luas project, so far been a success, ADM has commissioned a including the Red Cow interchange; the extent to full appraisal to comprehensively assess the which cost overruns are expected; and if he will effectiveness of the RTI in addressing the make a statement on the matter. [12536/04] transport needs of rural Ireland. This appraisal is 103. Ms O. Mitchell asked the Minister for due to be completed by the summer. Transport his plans for the Luas intersection at When the appraisal has been completed, I will the Red Cow roundabout; and if he will make a consider the findings and take whatever decisions statement on the matter. [10994/04] are appropriate with regard to the rural 105. Mr. Rabbitte asked the Minister for transport initiative. Transport the reasons he has chosen to reject the proposal to put the Luas on stilts at the Red Cow Road Safety. roundabout in Dublin; the further reason he has 98. Ms McManus asked the Minister for chosen to redevelop the Red Cow roundabout as Transport his views on the new campaign to a three-tier junction; when he expects work on reduce road deaths throughout Europe launched the redevelopment of the roundabout to begin; recently in Dublin; the road safety goals and the projected cost and the projected time frame measures articulated in the new Road Safety for the redevelopment; and if he will make a Charter; and if he will make a statement on the statement on the matter. [12503/04] matter. [12523/04] Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): I propose to take Questions Nos. 101, 103 and 105 Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): On 6 together. April 2004, I hosted a meeting of Transport The position in regard to the N7-M50 junction Ministers from the current EU member states — Red Cow roundabout — is that the National and the accession states to specifically discuss Roads Authority and South Dublin County road safety. The EU Road Safety Action Plan Council are currently preparing plans, including a proposes a 50% reduction in road deaths across motorway order and environmental impact the EU by 2010. At national level, the road safety statement, for the upgrade of the junction as part strategy which I will soon be publishing contains of the overall upgrade of the M50. The upgrade a demanding primary target of a 25% reduction works at the Red Cow interchange are intended in road collision fatalities by the end of 2006 over to remove as much traffic as possible from the the average annual number of fatalities in the signal controlled environment through the 1998-2003 period. Achievement of the target will provision of additional structures and free flow result in no more than 300 deaths per annum by slips that are separated from other traffic the end of the period of the strategy. This target movements. This will significantly increase the will contribute to the longer term EU goal. overall capacity of the interchange and reduce the I also facilitated the first signing ceremony for Luas-car interface so that both the road and Luas the Commission’s Road Safety Charter, which is network will have increased capacity to maintain a central element of the EU Road Safety Action a satisfactory level of service. Plan and which gives the opportunity to both The proposed works will reduce the volume of public and private organisations and members of traffic interfacing with Luas, i.e. traffic crossed by Luas, by more than half. Subject to satisfactory civil society to make specific, measurable progress in planning and design and securing An commitments to road safety. Bord Pleana´la approval, it is expected that work on upgrading the Red Cow interchange will Transport Service Regulation. commence in spring 2005 and be completed by 99. Mr. McCormack asked the Minister for spring 2007. I understand from the NRA that the Transport his plans for bus deregulation; and if he estimated cost of the upgrade of the M50 is \590 \ will make a statement on the matter. [10999/04] million, 2002 prices, including a provision of 37 million for the upgrade of the N7-M50 junction. 122. Mr. Kenny asked the Minister for In the circumstances, I am satisfied that such an Transport his plans for bus deregulation; and if he upgrade represents the best technical solution for will make a statement on the matter. [11000/04] the Red Cow interchange. 1295 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1296

[Mr. Brennan.] The agreement will give formal effect to the In the meantime, both the Railway announcement made in the budget by the Procurement Agency and Dublin Transportation Minister for Finance that five-year multi-annual Office are satisfied that Luas, despite the current capital envelopes would be introduced for all unsatisfactory traffic conditions at the Red Cow investment areas. junction, will be able to operate satisfactorily The agreement will provide for an allocation of using existing traffic signal sequences, pending \2.3 billion to my Department for public the upgrade of the junction as part of the M50 transport in the period 2004 to 2008. Direct upgrade project. The trams are driven in much Exchequer funding will account for more than the same way as a car or a bus in that tram drivers \1.7 billion while the remainder will come from yield to other traffic if they are confronted with a private investment. CIE own resources will also red light. contribute significantly to the overall investment Luas passenger services will commence on the programme. Tallaght line end of August 2004 and on the In anticipation of the conclusions of the Sandyford line end of June 2004. The RPA has agreement, my Department, in consultation with informed me that the project is within the \691 the relevant State agencies, is drawing up a budget and \84 million risk provision as notified priorities investment programme for public to the Government in 2002. transport. The programme, as well as determining the priority of projects to be implemented in the Question No. 102 answered with Question period up to 2008, will also look at the period No. 75. beyond 2008.

Question No. 103 answered with Question Rail Services. No. 101. 110. Mr. Costello asked the Minister for Question No. 104 answered with Question Transport if his attention has been drawn to No. 63. recent comments from a UK-based health and safety consultant (details supplied) that Question No. 105 answered with Question overcrowding on commuter trains here may No. 101. result in passenger deaths should trains be forced to stop suddenly; if he has plans to bring forward Question No. 106 answered with Question proposals to address overcrowding on commuter No. 53. trains; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12487/04] Question No. 107 answered with Question Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): Iam No. 59. aware of comments made on the “Pat Kenny Show” in March by Mr. Dave Roberts, said to be Question No. 108 answered with Question a UK-based health and safety consultant. I No. 85. understand Mr. Roberts expressed the view that crowded trains posed a risk of death to Public Transport. passengers should a train stop suddenly. It is not 109. Mr. Gogarty asked the Minister for clear if Mr. Roberts was referring to a collision Transport when he expects to announce the full or emergency braking. Clearly, there is some details of the capital investment programme for element of risk to all passengers in the event of public transport; if projects such as the rail emergency braking and a significantly greater risk interconnector in Dublin, the new western rail in the event of a collision. corridor, additional Luas lines or other public Research data on the safety implications of transport projects, not included in the \2.3 billion crowding on passenger trains is scarce. I am capital investment package announced on the 22 aware of one study published in 2000 by the UK March 2004, will have to wait until after 2008 to Health and Safety Laboratory. That study start receiving funding. [12546/04] concluded that there is no evidence to suggest that the net level of risk to the individual standing 116. Ms Lynch asked the Minister for in a crowded train is any greater than that Transport if he will expand on his recent presented to a person standing in an uncrowded announcement that \3.5 billion is to invested in train. The study also concluded that, in the event public transport over the next five years; the of a higher speed collision, whether a passenger projects he will be prioritising in that time; and if is seated or standing makes little difference to the he will make a statement on the matter. overall severity of injuries sustained. [12511/04] This conclusion appears to support the view in Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): I the railway industry worldwide that crowding is propose to take Questions Nos. 109 and 116 more a comfort issue than a safety issue. Indeed, together. crowding appears to be the norm on mass transit My Department is currently concluding a systems worldwide, particularly at peak times. capital investment framework agreement with the However, I am aware of the extent of the Department of Finance for the period 2004-08. discomfort and inconvenience crowding causes 1297 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1298 many passengers, particularly those on longer The board-designate for the new independent journeys. Dublin Airport Authority will take over this I previously informed the House in response to responsibility for Dublin Airport once the Parliamentary Question No. 439 of 14 October necessary amending legislation is enacted by the 2003, that I intend to bring forward an Oireachtas. amendment on Report Stage on the railway Aer Rianta forecasts that by the year 2020, safety Bill to provide the proposed railway safety passenger throughput at Dublin Airport will grow commission with the power to make regulations to approximately 30 million passengers per to address the issue of crowding on trains. annum compared to almost 16 million last year. The benefits of the Exchequer investment in The company’s long-term capacity plans to infrastructure can now be seen with the ensure that the Airport has adequate introduction of the 80 new diesel railcars into infrastructure to cater for this growth includes the revenue service over the last year. The additional provision of a second parallel runway around the carriages, together with Iarnro´ dE´ ireann’s revised end of this decade. and enhanced timetable, introduced in December The proposed new runway will of course be 2003, have helped to alleviate the problem subject to planning permission being obtained somewhat. A further 36 diesel railcars, 40 DART from Fingal County Council. In due course I will railcars and 67 intercity carriages are on order. also consider this runway proposal from the The DART railcars are presently being delivered. aviation policy and shareholder perspective. I understand that Iarnro´ dE´ ireann is also examining the possibility of ordering 68 higher Question No. 113 answered with Question specification railcars for use on regional services. No. 53. This substantial modernisation and expansion of the fleet will go a long way towards solving the Question No. 114 answered with Question problem of crowding on the Iarnro´ dE´ ireann No. 85. network. Rail Services. Question No. 111 answered with Question 115. Mr. Kehoe asked the Minister for No. 49. Transport the plans he has to introduce public service contracts into the rail service; and if he Airport Development Projects. will make a statement on the matter. [11021/04] 112. Mr. Sargent asked the Minister for Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): I set out Transport the analysis his Department is my proposals for public transport reform in a undertaking of the long-term strategic statement to the Public Transport Partnership development of airports here; if his Department Forum in November 2002. In that statement I is considering the proposed development of a said that it was my intention to establish an second main runway at Dublin Airport; and the independent authority to procure public transport analysis which has been undertaken on the effect services. I also proposed that all DART and of such a development on the other international suburban rail services in the greater Dublin area airports here. [12551/04] would be provided subject to a multi-annual Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): With public service contract negotiated by the regard to Aer Rianta, there are two main issues independent authority with Iarnro´ dE´ ireann. in the programme for Government vis-a`-vis the In reply to recent questions, I have stated that autonomy issue for Shannon and Cork and the it is now my intention that the independent independent terminal concept at Dublin, both of authority will have a national remit and in this which are strategically important issues for the context it is my intention that all rail services long term development of our State airports and provided by Iarnro´ dE´ ireann will be subject to a I have dealt with both of these matters in replies public service contract with the new authority. to questions earlier today. It is my intention to enact legislation to give The programme for Government also provides effect to these and other public transport reforms for the continued support of the six regional during 2004. airports at Donegal, Sligo, Knock, Galway, Kerry and Waterford. A range of separate, but Question No. 116 answered with Question complementary, financial support mechanisms No. 109. will continue to play an important role in facilitating the maintenance of continued safe and Question No. 117 answered with Question viable air services at each of the airports No. 75. concerned. With regard to a second runway at Dublin Questions Nos. 118 and 119 answered with Airport, Aer Rianta currently has statutory Question No. 56. responsibility to manage, operate and develop the Railway Stations. three State airports, including Dublin Airport, and to provide such facilities and services as it 120. Mr. Perry asked the Minister for considers necessary for aircraft and passengers. Transport his plans for the development of the 1299 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1300

[Mr. Perry.] granting of the necessary railway order, in the Spencer Dock; if he has had discussions with Irish event of it going ahead. Rail on the issue; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [11028/04] Question No. 129 answered with Question No. 59. Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): Iam aware that Irish Rail is examining proposals for Public Transport. the development of a new rail station at Spencer Dock. Discussions have taken place between my 130. Mr. Eamon Ryan asked the Minister for Department and Irish Rail in relation to the issue. Transport the policy changes he intends to However, formal proposals have yet to be introduce to ensure that a change to more presented by the company. sedentary transport modes is reversed in view of the concerns expressed by industry groups such Question No. 121 answered with Question as IBEC that changing exercise patterns are the No. 75. primary cause of the rise in the levels of obesity here and in view of the fact that the latest census Question No. 122 answered with Question statistics have shown a further dramatic reduction No. 99. in the numbers of children walking and cycling to school; the number of safe routes to schools Question No. 123 answered with Question traffic management projects undertaken here in No. 59. 2003; and the national budget for safe routes to schools projects in 2004. [12541/04] Question No. 124 answered with Question Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): One of No. 97. my Department’s objectives is to expand the capacity and enhance the quality of public Question No. 125 answered with Question transport in Ireland so as to increase the No. 49. patronage of public transport and effect, where possible, a shift away from sedentary modes of Question No. 126 answered with Question travel such as private cars. While buses, trams and No. 63. trains include a seated part of the trip, all public transport trips involve the trip maker in a walk to Question No. 127 answered with Question and from the transport corridor. In this regard, I No. 62. regard my Department’s public transport promotion of a modal shift to public transport as Light Rail Project. a key element in encouraging healthier forms of 128. Mr. Eamon Ryan asked the Minister for transport. Transport the role his Department has in the With regard to IBEC’s concerns, I share the possible extension of the Sandyford Luas line to concerns associated with rising levels of obesity Cherrywood; when he expects this project to be and associated health matters, and support the approved; the length of the planning and Department of Health and Children decision to construction of the line will take; and the funding set up a task force on obesity. The Dublin sources that are likely to be used to finance the Transportation Office has confirmed that it and project. [12540/04] IBEC have agreed to set up workshops on mobility management plans for employers, Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): I have including walking and cycling promotion not received any proposals from the Railway measures; they are expected to be held in mid- Procurement Agency to extend the Luas to 2004. Incorporating cycle lanes as part of the Cherrywood. I understand that discussions have city’s quality bus network has been hugely taken place between the Railway Procurement instrumental in providing a safer environment for Agency and a group of developers who own much cyclists to get from one point to another and is at of the developable land in the catchment area of the very core of the success achieved to date in the potential extension. I also understand that cycle promotion. Du´ n Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council is The downward trend in walking and cycling to supportive of the proposal and has put a planning school is certainly of concern, especially as many levy scheme in place to partially fund the of those travelling to school by car are making development. short trips that should not require motorised If discussions between the developers and the transport. However, trip length is not the only RPA are successful, the RPA would then be in a factor at play, and parental choices are key. position to submit a business plan in respect of One of the aims of the safer routes to school the project. Subject to a satisfactory plan being programme, currently being promoted by the developed, it is anticipated that the RPA would Dublin Transportation Office, is to encourage be in a position to make an application to me for concerted action between parents, schools and a railway order. The RPA expects the traffic agencies to walk or cycle to school and to construction phase of the project to be completed actively manage school travel. An increase in the approximately three years after the date of number of school children and accompanying 1301 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1302 adults walking and cycling to school can lead to State Airports. safer journeys, healthier and fitter children, 133. Mr. Sargent asked the Minister for reduced congestion and a more pupil centred Transport if he has investigated the experience of front-of-school environment. the Greater Toronto Airports Authority whose I understand from the Dublin Transportation executives have expressed the view that the Office that eight pilot school projects are privatised terminals in State-owned airports were currently underway, some since 2002, and are due a disaster from a strategic point of view; when to finish with the end of this summer term. The he intends to make a decision on the proposed pilots are as follows: introduction of a new terminal at Dublin Airport; and the person who will decide on the ownership School Area and management structures for such a new terminal. [12552/04] St. Patrick Boys School Donabate, County Dublin Girls National School Donabate, County Dublin Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): The Malahide Community School Malahide, County Dublin report of last year by the panel of experts chaired St. Cronin’s National School Bray, County Wicklow by Mr. Paddy Mullarkey which assessed the “expressions of interest” in relation to the St. Vincent de Paul Senior School Griffith Avenue, Dublin independent terminal concept at Dublin Airport St. Vincent de Paul Junior School Griffith Avenue, Dublin referred to examples, particularly in North Ard Scoil Ris Griffith Avenue, Dublin America, of independent terminals operating at Scoil Mhuire School Griffith Avenue, Dublin major international airports. I am aware that a project involving private Preliminary results in the two schools in sector development of terminal facilities at Donabate show a reduction in car use by 22% Toronto Pearson Airport encountered difficulties and an increase in walking by 11%. The results in the 1990s and it will be important to ensure from Bray show a reduction in car use by 20% that the circumstances which gave rise to those and a significant shift to cycling. difficulties are avoided in any similar project at A sum of \888,649 was allocated towards the Dublin Airport. The report of the expert panel pilot schemes in 2003, and \480,000 is being made concluded that an independent terminal at available this year per the programme. Dublin Airport would be operationally and Following the end of the pilot phase, the next technically feasible and that such a terminal is a steps will be: the DTO will publish national viable strategic option for the airport. guidelines and a resource kit for the safer routes I am continuing to give urgent attention to the to school implementation later this year, followed independent terminal concept and I will bring by workshops; a further round of school safer proposals in the matter to the Government in routes to schools projects will be funded in the due course. period 2004-06 based on the DTO survey. Property Acquisitions. Question No. 131 answered with Question 134. Mr. Noonan asked the Taoiseach if his No. 69. Department has had discussions or negotiations which might lead to the acquisition of a property Traffic Management. (details supplied) by purchase or leasehold; and 132. Mr. J. O’Keeffe asked the Minister for if he will make a statement on the matter. Transport his plans to ban HGVs from Dublin [12596/04] city; and if he will make a statement on the The Taoiseach: My Department has had no matter. [10996/04] discussions or negotiations to buy this property. Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): Traffic Transport of Dangerous Goods. management in Dublin is the responsibility of Dublin City Council. I am informed that a heavy 135. Mr. J. Higgins asked the Ta´naiste and goods vehicle management strategy is currently Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment being developed by the council to coincide with if Ireland will sign up as a contracting party to the the opening of the Dublin Port tunnel. This plan ADR agreement; and if she will make a has three objectives: to ensure the optimal use statement on the matter. [12449/04] by HGVs of the port tunnel; to minimise adverse 136. Mr. J. Higgins asked the Ta´naiste and effects of remaining HGV movements in the city; Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment and to manage the movement of vehicles not her views on the opinion of the Dangerous Goods within permitted dimensions, for example, Safety Advisors Association of Ireland that its through permit systems. members should not have to repeat their I understand that Dublin City Council has examinations every five years but instead should circulated a draft interim report identifying the be obliged to take refresher courses every two issues involved in the management strategy and years when they would be granted an extension that it is undertaking widespread consultation on to practice for the following two years; and if she the report before finally implementing any HGV will make a statement on the matter. [12450/04] management strategy. 1303 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1304

Minister of State at the Department of auspices of the United Nations Economic Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Mr. Fahey): Commission for Europe and which takes I propose to take Questions Nos. 135 and 136 decisions on the amendments to the international together. agreements ADR-RID-AND on the transport of A memorandum on the matter of acceding to dangerous goods by road, rail and inland the ADR is being prepared by this Department waterways respectively. and will be submitted to Government by the That unanimous decision, to which all member Department of Foreign Affairs later this year. states of the EU were a party, decided that The current legislative provisions relating to revalidation of safety adviser certificates would the appointment, examination etc. of safety be by examination every five years and that such advisers for the transport of dangerous goods by examinations would be approved by the relevant road are set out in the European Communities competent authority in each member state. This (Safety Advisers for the Transport of Dangerous position will be reflected in the 2005 edition of Goods by Road and Rail) Regulations 2001 (S.I. the ADR, which will become applicable from 1 No. 6 of 2001). These regulations transpose January 2005, with a six-month transition period. Council Directive 96/35/EC of 3 June 1996 on the appointment and vocational qualification of Health and Safety Regulations. safety advisers for the transport of dangerous 137. Mr. Howlin asked the Ta´naiste and goods by road, rail and inland waterway and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment Directive 2000/18/EC of the European the actions she has taken to protect workers Parliament and of the Council of 17 April 2000 against the effects of radon gas; and if she will on minimum examination requirements for safety make a statement on the matter. [12498/04] advisers for the transport of dangerous goods by road, rail or inland waterway. Minister of State at the Department of Under the regulations and directives, a safety Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Mr. Fahey): adviser for the transport of dangerous goods must Any specific action in respect of radon is a matter hold an EC certificate of training as a safety for the Radiological Protection Institute of adviser. The regulations and directives also lay Ireland, which is the designated competent down the minimum examination requirements for national authority for this purpose. The relevant Irish legislation is the Radiological Protection the examination needed to obtain such a Act 1991 (Ionising Radiation) Order 2000 certificate. Article 6 of Directive 96/35/EC, (Statutory Instrument 125 of 2000). Under the relating to the validity of the certificate, provides Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act 1989, that the certificate shall be valid for five years. employers are required to identify hazards arising The period of validity of a certificate shall be in the workplace, to assess the risks arising from extended automatically for five years at a time the hazards and to put in place measures to where, during the final year before its expiry, its eliminate or control the risk measures. The holder has followed refresher courses or passed authority’s seminars etc. have reminded an examination both of which must be approved employers located in areas likely to exceed the by the competent authority. This is transposed in threshold limit value set out in the statutory Ireland through Regulation 7(12) of the 2001 instrument of their obligations under the 1989 regulations, which provides that where the holder Act if the limit value is exceeded. of a training certificate can show to the competent authority concerned, that within the Local Employment Service. 12 month period which precedes the expiry of the validity of the certificate referred to in paragraph 138. Mr. P. Breen asked the Ta´naiste and (11) or of any extension of it given under this Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment paragraph, he or she has passed an examination if FA´ S has undertaken an assessment of the which has been approved by the competent labour market needs of the Clare region in the authority, the period of validity of that certificate context of the closure of the LES; if as part of shall be extended by the competent authority for this assessment it would bring forward a further period of five years. recommendations on the type of employment I have no proposals currently to alter the service activity necessary to address the particular existing requirements and I do not envisage needs of marginalised client groups in the region changing those requirements in the foreseeable as defined in Question No. 106 of 12 February future. 2004; and if she will make a statement on the I am informed by the Health and Safety matter. [12569/04] Authority, the national competent authority in Minister of State at the Department of Ireland for the regulations, that it is considered Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Mr. Fahey): too onerous to require training for safety advisers At my request, FA´ S undertook an assessment of every two years, particularly in the light of the the labour market needs of the County Clare decision in October 2003 by the joint meeting of region in the context of the closure of the local the RID Safety Committee (international rail employment service. It consulted relevant parties transport) and the working party on the transport in the region, including staff representatives and of dangerous goods, which works under the SIPTU, as part of the process. The assessment has 1305 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1306 been completed and my Department is schemes; if her attention has been drawn to the considering the report. fact that in many areas of the country the present community employment scheme will be wiped Redundancy Payments. out if changes are not made; if she will allow greater access for persons with special needs into 139. Mr. G. Mitchell asked the Ta´naiste and the community employment schemes; the total Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment number of participants nationally in community the reason a person (details supplied) received employment schemes on 1 January 2004 and the such a small amount of redundancy payment after projected number involved up to 31 December 30 years of service; and if he has recourse to an 2004; the number of participants in community appeal; if the rules for calculating redundancy employment schemes in the Galway-Mayo region have changed; and if she will make a statement on 1 January 2004 and the projected number by on the matter. [12570/04] 31 December 2004; and if she will make a Minister of State at the Department of statement on the matter. [12571/04] Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Mr. Fahey): Minister of State at the Department of The person concerned received his full statutory Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Mr. Fahey): redundancy entitlements on being made As part of the Government’s decision in 1999 to redundant on 5 August 2002. The calculation was restructure community employment, future based on his age, length of service in employment participation in community employment by an and gross weekly wage at the time he was individual was capped at three years, effective declared redundant — the date on which notice from April 2000. The change was introduced to was given, which in this case was 19 July 2002. discourage repeated participation in community When the man in question was made redundant, employment and to encourage unemployed the statutory entitlement was half a week’s pay persons to avail of training and education for each year of service under the age of 41 years options, where possible. Such options are shown and a full week’s pay for each year of service over to have more successful progression outcomes the age of 41 years, plus one extra week’s pay. for individuals. New rates of statutory redundancy came into The three-year cap was amended in August effect on 25 May 2003 with the enactment of the 2001 to allow particularly disadvantaged persons new Redundancy Payments Act, 2003. Under the to remain on the programme for a further period. new Act, an employee, declared redundant on or Participants are considered for such an extension after 25 May 2003, is entitled to statutory if, on reaching the end of their normal community redundancy of two weeks pay per year of service, employment entitlements, they are likely to regardless of age, plus one extra week’s pay at experience difficulty in getting employment. A the gross rate of pay, up to the ceiling of \507.90 number of community employment participants per week. have difficulty in progressing to open labour Under the Redundancy Payments Act 2003, market employment due to their age, literacy or retrospection was not possible, even in limited numeracy problems or a lack of suitable jobs circumstances, because the redundancy scheme available locally. places obligations on employers and confers FA´ S has the discretion to give 20% of rights on employees. The legal advice of the participants under 50 years of age extensions of Office of the Attorney General is that because up to a year to meet the needs of individuals who the payment of a statutory lump sum is a legal would clearly benefit from an extension in terms requirement on the employers, it could not be of their future employment prospects. imposed on them with retrospective effect. Participants over the age of 50 may be given a Employers are entitled to due notice of intention further year on community employment, with a to legally require them to pay enhanced rates. It provision for a review at the end of that year. is regretted that workers made redundant prior Further discretion may be given to extend to 25 May 2003, have not been able to benefit participation on a case by case basis, subject to from the increased redundancy payments. The continued annual review. Approximately 20% of legal position cannot be changed, however, and participants on community employment may special legislative provisions cannot be made for benefit from an additional year on the redundant employees who missed out on the programme under the current flexibility new rates. guidelines. An extension is considered if participants, on reaching the end of their normal Community Employment Schemes. community employment entitlements, are likely 140. Mr. Connaughton asked the Ta´naiste and to experience difficulty obtaining employment Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment due to age, literacy or numeracy problems or a if she will reduce the severity of the three-year lack of suitable jobs available locally. rule for participation in community employment Community employment is an elective labour schemes; if her Department and the FA´ S market programme and, as such, the concept of authorities are aware of the effect the present progression by participants is central to it. FA´ S three-year rule has and will have on community employment services are available to assist employment schemes, particularly in rural based participants who have completed their term of 1307 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1308

[Mr. Fahey.] Property Acquisitions. community employment to progress to 141. Mr. Noonan asked the Ta´naiste and employment on the open labour market or to Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment advise on training and educational options if her Department has had discussions or available locally. negotiations which might lead to the acquisition I am pleased to indicate that all health service of a property (details supplied) by purchase or community employment projects, including those leasehold; and if she will make a statement on the providing services for persons with disabilities, matter. [12597/04] are ring-fenced and protected from reductions. Other services that are ring-fenced from Ta´naiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade reductions include drugs task force activity and and Employment (Ms Harney): My Department child care service provision. Projects in RAPID has not had any discussions about the acquisition areas are prioritised. Sponsor organisations such of the property in question. as the Irish Wheelchair Association have Work Permits. indicated that they have difficulty in replacing participants who have completed their normal 142. Mr. Durkan asked the Ta´naiste and term of community employment, due to the lack Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment of suitable applicants coming forward for the the reason a work permit was refused in the case programme. In this regard, FA´ S has been asked of a person (details supplied) in County Kildare; to make every effort to identify community and if she will make a statement on the employment participants suitable for the matter. [12640/04] ´ positions in question. If FAS encounters Ta´naiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade difficulties in replacing departing community and Employment (Ms Harney): I am informed employment participants with suitable persons, that there is no record of a valid work permit the matter can be considered in the context of the application in this case. Applications which are 20% flexibility in respect of extending community incomplete or incorrect are returned to the employment participation. employer for completion. The total funding allocation for employment schemes in 2004 has been fixed at \351 million, Property Acquisitions. which will support up to 25,000 places across the 143. Mr. Noonan asked the Minister for three employment schemes — community Defence if his Department has had discussions or employment, job initiative and social economy. negotiations which might lead to the acquisition FA´ S is being given some flexibility in the of a property (details supplied) by purchase or management of the financial allocation to leasehold; and if he will make a statement on the maximise progression to the labour market, while matter. [12598/04] facilitating the support of community services. As the allocation of \351 million is similar to the Minister for Defence (Mr. M. Smith): My budgeted amount provided in 2003, there will not Department does not have a record of discussions be a reduction in the total level of provision for or negotiations having taken place in respect of the three schemes or in the combined the property referred to in the question. participation levels in 2004. On 1 January 2004, the level of participation in community Grant Payments. employment schemes reached a target figure of 144. Mr. Naughten asked the Minister for 20,000. Agriculture and Food if the 50% rule agreed at There were 1,955 participants in community EU level which entitles a farmer to retain 100% employment schemes in the Galway-Mayo region of his decoupled payment with 50% of the on 1 January last, comprising 1,230 participants in landholding will be implemented by the Galway and 725 in Mayo. It is projected that Government; and if he will make a statement on there will be 2,055 participants in community the matter. [12448/04] employment schemes in the Galway-Mayo region Minister for Agriculture and Food (Mr. on 31 December next, comprising 1,299 Walsh): The requirement under the new single participants in Galway and 756 in Mayo. The payment scheme that individual farmers need to projected increase in Galway relates to places have 100% of the average land area that they had being transferred from the job initiative scheme during the reference period would have resulted to community employment. in serious problems for those Irish farmers who, The future structure of the community for specific reasons, declare less lands in 2005 or employment programme is being reviewed by a subsequent years, than the average area of land group of senior officials and FA´ S. The group is that they farmed during the reference period. expected to report to Ministers on the outcome Ireland secured a concession from the EU of its deliberations shortly. The outcome of the Commission whereby a member state may make review will inform future adjustments in the use of its national reserve to consolidate payment structure and terms and conditions of entitlements for certain categories of farmers on participation in community employment. the actual number of hectares of land farmed in 1309 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1310

2005, provided that the farmer declares all the or negotiations about the property referred to by hectares available to him or her in 2005 and the the Deputy. total area declared is equal to at least 50% of the average number of hectares declared during the Grant Payments. reference period. My Department is making 147. Mr. Naughten asked the Minister for arrangements to have the mechanisms in place in Agriculture and Food when a payment will be 2005 so that farmers may avail of the concession. made to a person (details supplied) in County The provisions can be applied to farmers who Roscommon; the reason for the delay in issuing have afforested some of their land since the same; and if he will make a statement on the beginning of the reference period; farmers who matter. [12631/04] have disposed of land to a public authority for non-agricultural use; farmers who had leased or Minister for Agriculture and Food (Mr. rented land during the reference period but the Walsh): Payment of the 2004 forestry premium lease or rental agreement has since expired; and will be made to the person in question shortly. farmers who declared lands situated in Northern Ireland during the reference period. 148. Mr. Connaughton asked the Minister for The concession can be availed of more than Agriculture and Food the penalties which will once if the farmer concerned continues to declare apply as a result of a decision by his Department at least 50% of the land area farmed during the to penalise a person (details supplied) in County reference period. It would benefit those farmers Galway under the bovine schemes for 2003; the who are contemplating afforestation in 2005 or level of penalty which will apply to the suckler subsequent years. If a farmer benefits from the cow grant 2003 and other livestock grants applied concession, his consolidated payment for; if such a penalty will apply to this person for entitlements will be regarded as having come their ewe premium scheme for 2003; his views on from the national reserve. The entitlements whether the information sought should be made concerned cannot be sold or leased for five years available to this person in order to allow them to and the farmer must use all his entitlements consider if they should make an appeal based on himself each year for a period of five years. Any the information they receive; and if he will make entitlements not used will revert to the national a statement on the matter. [12632/04] reserve. The provisions relating to land availability cannot be applied to any farmer who Minister for Agriculture and Food (Mr. disposed of land by way of sale or lease other Walsh): The person in question applied for a than the sale of land to a public authority for non- premium on 35 animals under the 2003 suckler agricultural use. cow premium scheme. An inspection carried out on 18 November 2003 found that one animal in Rural Environment Protection Scheme. respect of which a premium was applied for, animal tag No. 181950860076, did not comply 145. Mr. Perry asked the Minister for with the identification and registration Agriculture and Food if he will rescind the requirements set out in paragraph 38 of the terms decision made on the REP scheme appeal by a and conditions of the scheme. The animal was person (details supplied); and if he will make a rejected and a consequent reduction penalty was statement on the matter. [12559/04] applied across the man’s bovine schemes. Minister for Agriculture and Food (Mr. Another animal, a heifer with the tag No. Walsh): The specific procedures for appeals 181950810154, was found to be less than eight under the rural environment protection scheme months old and has been deleted from the include an initial appeal to my Department’s local application without penalty. Eight unclaimed office and the right of appeal to the agriculture animals were also found to be CMMS non- appeals office. The initial appeal in this case was compliant and this will result in a penalty being unsuccessful. The Department of Agriculture and applied in accordance with paragraph 40 and 43 Food has written to the person in question of the terms and conditions of the scheme. The informing him of the decision and advising him overall penalty resulting for the person named of his right to make a further appeal to the will apply to his bovine schemes only when all agriculture appeals office, which is statutorily bovine claims submitted by him have been independent of my Department. finalised. Correspondence about the matter was issued to Property Acquisitions. the person named, who was advised that he could seek a review of the decision by contacting his 146. Mr. Noonan asked the Minister for district livestock office with new evidence or Agriculture and Food if his Department has had information that may assist his case. The discussions or negotiations which might lead to applicant made contact on 3 March 2004 and his the acquisition of a property (details supplied) by case was reviewed. My Department wrote to him purchase or leasehold; and if he will make a on 29 March 2004 advising him that the results statement on the matter. [12599/04] of the inspection remained unchanged. He was Minister for Agriculture and Food (Mr. further advised that he could appeal this decision Walsh): My Department has not had discussions within three months by contacting the 1311 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1312

[Mr. Walsh.] Genetically Modified Organisms. agricultural appeals office. The herd owner 150. Mr. Ferris asked the Minister for informed the district livestock office that he Agriculture and Food if he will make a statement intends to lodge an appeal but, to date, the on the $1.8 billion claim for compensation against appeals unit does not have a record of the EU lodged by the US with the WTO over correspondence from him. alleged losses incurred during the EU An 80% advance payment in respect of 12 moratorium on genetically modified imports from animals applied on under the special beef the US. [12639/04] premium scheme in June 2003 has been paid. The balancing payment and any payments under an Minister for Agriculture and Food (Mr. application lodged by the person named in Walsh): I understand that the United States has December 2003 for four animals under the special initiated dispute settlement proceedings rather beef premium scheme are delayed pending than a claim for compensation, in the World finalisation of the suckler cow premium case. The Trade Organisation in a case entitled European person in question was paid his full entitlement Communities — Measures affecting the Approval under the 2003 ewe premium scheme and ewe and Marketing of Bio-Tech Products. The WTO national envelope on 17 October 2003 and 10 panel that has been established to examine the March 2004, respectively. The person in question case has not yet reported. The question of was paid his full entitlement of \4,443.97 under compensation, if at all, would only arise at a much the 2003 area-based compensatory allowance later stage in the dispute settlement procedures. scheme on 19 September 2003. Based on the information available about the Tax Code. rejection of one claimed animal, the penalty 151. Mr. J. Higgins asked the Minister for applicable to the premia due on his claimed Finance if his attention has been drawn to the animals under the bovine — suckler cow and fact that injured children awarded money by the special beef premium — schemes and on any courts pay DIRT on the interest on the capital related extensification payments will be in the sum that is invested on their behalf by the courts, region of 1.5%, while the penalty applicable as a even when their income is below the threshold result of eight unclaimed animals being non- for paying tax, and that they are not entitled to a compliant with identification and registration refund; and if he will make a statement on the requirements will be in the region of 8.5%. matter. [12475/04] Farm Retirement Scheme. 152. Mr. J. Higgins asked the Minister for Finance if he intends to change the situation 149. Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for whereby injured children awarded money by the Agriculture and Food when the early farm courts pay DIRT on the interest on the capital retirement application will be processed in the sum that is invested on their behalf and are not case of a person (details supplied) in County entitled to a refund; and if he will make a Kildare; and if he will make a statement on the statement on the matter. [12476/04] matter. [12633/04] 153. Mr. Gormley asked the Minister for Minister for Agriculture and Food (Mr. Finance if he has received a letter from a person Walsh): The EU regulation governing the early (details supplied) with regard to a DIRT anomaly retirement scheme requires that a pension be regarding minors; the actions he will take to paid as a supplement to any national retirement rectify this anomaly; and if he will make a pension received by the participant, his or her statement on the matter. [12478/04] spouse or a partner in a joint management arrangement. My Department has an obligation, Minister for Finance (Mr. McCreevy): I therefore, to establish whether a person, on propose to take Questions Nos. 151 to 153, reaching the national retirement age, is entitled inclusive, together. to a national retirement pension. I confirm that I have received correspondence The person in question reached the age of 66 about the case referred to in Question No. 153. I on 17 August 2003. In keeping with its normal have been informed by the Revenue procedures in such cases, the Department of Commissioners that Part 8 of the Taxes Agriculture and Food wrote to him three months Consolidation Act 1997 provides for the levying previously and told him that he must apply for of deposit interest retention tax on certain the old age contributory and non-contributory interest paid or credited on deposits held with pensions and that he must provide documentary banks, building societies and certain other evidence of the outcome of his applications. He financial institutions. Subject to certain statutory had not provided the information by the time he exceptions, financial institutions are required to reached the age of 66, however. Therefore, the deduct the tax from interest paid or credited in Department was obliged to suspend the payment respect of the income on deposit. of his early retirement pension. When the person An individual’s entitlement to the repayment named provides the information requested, the of DIRT is limited to circumstances in which he position will be reviewed and if he is entitled to or she, or his or her spouse, is either aged 65 years any arrears they will be paid promptly. or over at any time during the tax year or 1313 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1314 permanently incapacitated by reason of mental or implementation process and are being discussed physical infirmity from maintaining himself or with the public service unions. herself, or became so incapacitated, at any time during the tax year; and circumstances in which Tax Code. his or her income, inclusive of the deposit 155. Mr. Fleming asked the Minister for interest, is below the appropriate income Finance when the refund of income tax due to a exemption limit for tax purposes. A partial person (details supplied) in County Laois will be refund may be due to an individual in the first of paid. [12573/04] the circumstances I have mentioned if his or her income, inclusive of the deposit interest, does not Minister for Finance (Mr. McCreevy): I have greatly exceed the appropriate income exemption been advised by the Revenue Commissioners that limit. There is no automatic entitlement to minors an income tax refund for 2002 was certified on for a refund of DIRT, even if a minor’s income 29 April 2004. A refund cheque will issue to the is under the relevant income thresholds for tax taxpayer on 5 May 2004. purposes. I would like to outline additional provisions Dormant Accounts Fund. that apply to awards made for personal injuries. 156. Dr. Cowley asked the Minister for Finance Section 189 of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997 the percentage of the dormant accounts that were provides that certain income, including deposit opened in the names of persons living outside the interest, arising to individuals including minors State; the total amount of moneys in these from the investment of compensation payment accounts; and if he will make a statement on the awarded by the courts, or under an out-of court matter. [12574/04] settlement, in respect of a personal injuries claim is exempt from tax under certain conditions: as a Minister for Finance (Mr. McCreevy): The result of personal injuries, the individual must be dormant accounts fund receives moneys from the permanently and totally incapacitated by reason institutions concerned in the form of lump sums of mental and physical injury from maintaining once each year. As the moneys are not himself or herself and the income from the differentiated by individual accounts, neither I investment of the compensation awarded must be nor the disbursement board have details of the sole or main income of the individual. individual ownership of the accounts. There is no An injured minor who, as a result of personal requirement on credit institutions, under the injuries, is not permanently and totally dormant accounts legislation, to differentiate or incapacitated by reason of mental and physical to report information on the relative percentages of account holders living inside and outside the injury from maintaining himself or herself does State. not have a statutory entitlement to the repayment of DIRT deducted from the investment of Property Acquisitions. compensation awarded, even if his or her income is below the income threshold for tax purposes. 157. Mr. Noonan asked the Minister for DIRT is applied on a wide basis and there are Finance if his Department has had discussions or few repayment situations. I have no plans to negotiations which might lead to the acquisition extend the present DIRT repayment rules to of a property (details supplied) by purchase or cover the cases referred in the questions. leasehold; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12600/04] Decentralisation Programme. Minister of State at the Department of Finance 154. Mr. F. McGrath asked the Minister for (Mr. Parlon): The Commissioners of Public Finance if his attention has been drawn to the Works have not had discussions or negotiations great IT skills of the staff at the Department of which might lead to the acquisition of the Social and Family Affairs; his views of whether property by purchase or leasehold. his decentralisation plan will uproot families from 158. Mr. Noonan asked the Minister for Dublin and cause major frustration and anguish; Foreign Affairs if his Department has had and if he will penalise staff who cannot move for discussions or negotiations which might lead to family and personal reasons. [12499/04] the acquisition of a property (details supplied) by Minister for Finance (Mr. McCreevy): As I purchase or leasehold; and if he will make a stated in my budget statement last December, the statement on the matter. [12601/04] Government recognises that Departments’ IT systems are crucial for service delivery. I have Minister for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Cowen): My made clear on many occasions that the Department has not had any discussions or decentralisation programme will operate on a negotiations which might lead to the acquisition voluntary basis. Civil and public servants who do by purchase or leasehold of the property not wish to transfer to a decentralised location identified by the Deputy. will be assigned to alternative public service posts Irish Emigrants. in Dublin. The exact procedures which will apply in such cases will be dealt with as part of the 159. Mr. Gregory asked the Minister for 1315 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1316

[Mr. Gregory.] Computerisation Programme. Foreign Affairs the proportion of the promised 161. Mr. Ring asked the Minister for Education \18 million which will be allocated in 2004 to and Science when will a person (details supplied) assist elderly Irish emigrants in Britain; and if he in County Mayo will be given a personal will make a statement on the matter. [12700/04] computer for education purposes. [12477/04] Minister for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Cowen): The Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. amounts recommended in the task force report, \ Dempsey): My Department operates a scheme of including 18 million in 2004, were seen by the grants to primary and post-primary schools to task force as the optimum amounts required if its facilitate the purchase of special equipment, recommendations are to be implemented including computers, for the use of pupils with immediately. I have made clear that the measures special educational needs. An application for a proposed by the task force cannot be put into home computer for the pupil referred to by the effect overnight, even if the level of resources Deputy was received in my Department on 23 advocated could be provided, because of their September 2003. The matter was referred to my range and complexity. The implementation of the Department’s inspectorate, which expressed the recommendations will have to be phased over a view that adequate computer funding was period of years. The total allocation this year for available to the school to cater for the emigrant services in the Department of Foreign \ educational needs of the pupil in question. The Affairs’s Vote is 4 million. This represents an school authorities were notified accordingly on 21 increase of \1 million, or one third, over 2003. \ October 2003. Under the terms of the scheme The lion’s share of the increase, 3.57 million, will pupils may, with the consent of the board of go to the DION fund for services to Irish management, use computer equipment at home emigrants in the UK, \400,000 will be allocated \ to assist them in their education. It is open to to Irish welfare agencies in the US and 48,000 parents to discuss this option with the school will go to agencies in Australia. I have made management. provision for grants to be made to E´ AN, the umbrella body for voluntary agencies in Ireland Disadvantaged Status. providing services to emigrants, and to the Irish Commission for Prisoners Overseas. I hope to 162. Mr. Carey asked the Minister for find additional funds through savings in my Education and Science the reason a school Department’s Vote later in the year, which will (details supplied) in Dublin 11 has not been given enable me to increase the expenditure to Irish disadvantaged status in view of the fact that all emigrants even further. As I have said in the other schools in the area are so designated, House previously, I will continue to implement thereby depriving this small school of necessary the report of the task force and to work in additional resources; and the additional supports partnership with the Governments of the that would be available if the school has countries concerned and with voluntary agencies disadvantaged status. [12490/04] at home and abroad to support our emigrants Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. overseas. Dempsey): Any decision to expand or extend any of the initiatives aimed at tackling educational Site Acquisitions. disadvantage is being considered in the context 160. Mr. N. O’Keeffe asked the Minister for of a broad review of all such initiatives, which is Education and Science the position regarding the nearing completion. purchase of a suitable site for the development of a building for a school (details supplied) in School Staffing. County Cork; and the electoral areas which the 163. Mr. Carey asked the Minister for catchment area of this school serves. [12462/04] Education and Science if he will examine the Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. staffing allocation for a school (details supplied) Dempsey): When I published the 2004 schools in Dublin 11 in order that a concessionary post building programme, I stated that my strategy will can be retained, thus ensuring the school’s be grounded in capital investment based on provision for special needs pupils and to facilitate multi-annual allocations. My officials are the introduction of co-education due to the reviewing all projects which were not authorised announced wind down of an adjacent primary to proceed to construction as part of the 2004 school; and if he will make a statement on the programme, with a view to including them as part matter. [12493/04] of a multi-annual programme from 2005. I expect Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. to be in a position to make further Dempsey): My Department has no record of a announcements on the matter in the course of the concessionary post having been sanctioned at the year. The proposed project at the school referred school referred to by the Deputy. to by the Deputy will be considered in this The staffing of a primary school is determined context. Information in respect of catchment by reference to the enrolment of the school on areas is not stored with reference to electoral 30 September of the previous school year. The areas. number of mainstream posts sanctioned is 1317 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1318 determined by reference to a staffing schedule educational needs and making individual and is finalised for a particular year following allocations in the case of children with more acute discussions with the education partners. The lower-prevalence special educational needs. staffing of the school in question for the current It is expected that the change to a weighted school year is a principal and ten mainstream system will bring with it a number of benefits. class teachers, based on the enrolment of 268 The new system will reduce the need for pupils on 30 September 2002. The school also has individualised educational psychological the services of a shared home school liaison post assessment, reduce the volume of applications to based in the school, two learning support my Department for additional resources for teachers, two resource teachers, a special class individual pupils and give greater flexibility to teacher and a permanent post under the early schools, which will facilitate the development and start programme. implementation of improved systems and According to data submitted to my procedures in schools to meet the needs of pupils Department by the school’s board of with low achievement and pupils with special management, the enrolment on 30 September educational needs. The detailed arrangements 2003 was 250 pupils. The enrolment on that date will be set out in a circular to be issued to schools determines the staffing for the 2004-05 school before the end of the current school year. Schools year. The enrolment of 250 pupils warrants a due to receive the additional posts will be notified staffing of principal and nine mainstream class within this timeframe. teachers for the 2004-05 school year. The reduction in pupil enrolments means that one Schools Refurbishment. teacher will be redeployed to the Dublin diocesan 164. Mr. Carey asked the Minister for panel for the 2004-05 school year. Panel notices Education and Science the action he intends to have been issued to the appropriate teachers in take to overcome unforeseen difficulties in the the school during the course of this week. application by a school (details supplied) in The Department of Education and Science has Dublin 11 for the provision of security fencing received an application from the school for around the school; and if he will make a special educational needs supports. Applications statement on the matter. [12495/04] for special educational resources received between 15 February and 31 August of last year Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. are being considered at present. More than 5,000 Dempsey): The schools building section of the such applications were received. Cases involving Department of Education and Science has children who started school last September are requested the management authority of the being given priority. All such cases were school to obtain a written report, including costs, from the Office of Public Works about the responded to at or before the commencement of requirement for additional materials associated the current school year. The balance of over 4,000 with the provision of a security fence at the applications has been reviewed by a dedicated school. Further consideration will be given to the team comprising members of the Department’s application for additional funding after the report inspectorate and the national educational has been received and examined. psychological service. The applications are being considered in the context of the outcome of School Accommodation. surveys of special educational resources provision conducted over the past year, approximately. 165. Mr. P. McGrath asked the Minister for Data submitted by schools as part of the Education and Science the way in which a person nationwide census of special educational (details supplied) in County Westmeath is resources provision are also being considered. expected to enrol for a place in second level The processing of applications is a complex and school for September 2004 when they have been time-consuming operation. My Department is refused enrolment at a number of schools; and if endeavouring to complete the processing as he will make a statement on the matter. quickly as possible. My officials will then respond [12526/04] to all applicant schools. Pending a response, Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. schools are advised to refer to circular 24/03, Dempsey): The selection and enrolment of pupils which was issued in September 2003. The circular in second level schools is the responsibility of the contains practical advice on how to achieve the school management authorities. My most effective deployment of resources already Department’s main responsibility is to ensure allocated for special educational needs within that schools in an area can, between them, cater the school. for all pupils in that area who seek second level The teacher resources outcome for each places. This may result in some pupils not applicant school will be based on a new weighted obtaining a place in the school of their first system of allocation which I announced recently. choice. As schools may not have a place for every This system, as part of which an additional 350 applicant, a selection process may be necessary. teaching posts will be allocated, will involve If a school refuses to enrol a pupil, it is obliged making a staffing allocation to schools based on to inform parents of their right, under section 29 a predicted incidence of pupils with special of the Education Act 1998, to appeal that 1319 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1320

[Mr. N. Dempsey.] Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. decision to the Secretary General of my Dempsey): The staffing of a primary school is Department. The section in question provides determined by reference to the school’s parents with an appeals process, if a board of enrolment on 30 September of the previous management of a school or a person acting on school year. The number of mainstream posts behalf of the board refuses to enrol a student. sanctioned is determined by reference to a An appeal will not be admitted, generally, if it staffing schedule and is finalised for a particular has not been made within 42 calendar days of the year following discussions with the education date on which the board of management’s partners. The mainstream staffing of the school decision was notified to the parent or student referred to by the Deputy for the current school concerned. A longer period for making appeals year is a principal and eight mainstream class may be allowed as an exception if it is accepted teachers, based on its enrolment of 220 pupils on that circumstances did not permit the making of 30 September 2002. The school also has the an appeal within the 42-day limit. The Secretary services of a learning support teacher, a resource General of my Department may direct a school teacher, two posts to cater for educational to enrol a pupil if an appeal under section 29 is disadvantage and a shared home school liaison upheld. My Department will contact the parents teacher. Based on the school’s enrolment of 172 of the child referred to by the Deputy to advise pupils at 30 September 2003, its mainstream them on the appeals procedures. Under the staffing for 2004-05 will be a principal and five Education (Welfare) Act 2000, the primary mainstream class teachers. The school fulfils the function of the education welfare board is to criterion for appointment of an administrative ensure that each child attends a recognised school principal based on its staffing of a principal and or otherwise receives an appropriate education. nine teachers when all posts are considered. A The board provides a welfare-focused service, permanent teacher may be appointed to replace the principal in such circumstances. This will through its educational welfare officers, that is facilitate a staffing of principal and six accessible to parents, school and others mainstream class teachers and the net loss of concerned with the educational welfare of young posts as a consequence of applying the staffing people. schedule is two mainstream posts. There are no plans to adjust the additional posts allocated to Schools Building Projects. the school under various support schemes. 166. Mr. J. Bruton asked the Minister for 168. Mr. Hogan asked the Minister for Education and Science the plans within his Education and Science if and when a special Department to provide a new school for the needs assistant will be allocated to a school Eureka secondary school in Kells (details (details supplied) in County Kilkenny; and if he supplied); the stage the process to provide the will make a statement on the matter. [12563/04] new school is at; if he has plans to meet with the school management board, the parents, or the Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. teachers in this regard; when his Department will Dempsey): My Department has no record of be making an application for planning having received an application for special permission; and if he will make a statement on education resources from the school referred to the matter. [12547/04] by the Deputy. Any application received will be Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. considered in the context of the criteria set out in Dempsey): When I published the 2004 schools the relevant Department circulars and the building programme, I stated that my strategy will existing level of special education resources be grounded in capital investment based on provision in the school. multi-annual allocations. My officials are reviewing all projects which were not authorised Schools Building Projects. to proceed to construction as part of the 2004 169. Mr. Allen asked the Minister for programme, with a view to including them as part Education and Science the reason the \634,869.04 of a multi-annual programme from 2005. I expect allocated to Scoil Mhuire gan Sma´l secondary to make further announcements in the course of school, Blarney, County Cork, in 1997 has not the year to update schools about the multi-annual been paid for the development of a school and programme of works, including public private community sports hall. [12564/04] partnerships. The application for a new post- primary school for the Eureka school at Kells will Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. be considered in this regard. Dempsey): The school authorities of Scoil Mhuire gan Sma´l secondary school, Blarney, were School Staffing. advised that their project could progress through architectural planning. Projects in architectural 167. Mr. Crowe asked the Minister for design do not automatically proceed to tender Education and Science the plans he has to reduce stage after completion of design stages. This the number of teaching staff at St. Joseph’s project was not approved to proceed to School in East Wall Road, Dublin 3. [12562/04] construction in the schools building programme. 1321 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1322

When I published the 2004 schools building The processing of applications is a complex and programme, I stated that my strategy will be time-consuming operation. My Department is grounded in capital investment based on multi- endeavouring to complete the processing as annual allocations. My officials are reviewing all quickly as possible. My officials will then respond projects which were not authorised to proceed to to all applicant schools. Pending a response, construction as part of the 2004 programme with schools are advised to refer to circular 24/03, a view to including them as part of a multi-annual which was issued in September 2003. The circular programme from 2005. I expect to be in a position contains practical advice on how to achieve the to make further announcements on this matter in most effective deployment of resources already the course of the year. The proposed project at allocated for special educational needs within Scoil Mhuire gan Sma´l secondary school, the school. Blarney, will be considered in this regard. The teacher resources outcome for each applicant school will be based on a new weighted School Accommodation. system of allocation, which I announced recently. 170. Mr. Deasy asked the Minister for This system, as part of which an additional 350 Education and Science if he will grant increased teaching posts will be allocated, will involve funding to a school (details supplied) in County making a staffing allocation to schools based on Waterford for the provision of a larger portacabin a predicted incidence of pupils with special for the next school year, in view of the lack of educational needs and making individual proper facilities in its present accommodation allocations in the case of children with more acute and the increasing numbers in the school; and if lower-prevalence special educational needs. he will make a statement on the matter. It is expected that the change to a weighted [12566/04] system will bring with it a number of benefits. The new system will reduce the need for Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. individualised educational psychological Dempsey): My Department has received an assessment, reduce the volume of applications to application from the school authorities of the my Department for additional resources for primary school in County Waterford referred to individual pupils and give greater flexibility to by the Deputy requesting funding to provide a schools, which will facilitate the development and larger portacabin for September. The application implementation of improved systems and is being considered by the school planning section procedures in schools to meet the needs of pupils at present and a decision on the application will with low achievement and pupils with special be conveyed to the school authorities shortly. educational needs. The detailed arrangements will be set out in a circular to be issued to schools Psychological Service. before the end of the current school year. Schools 171. Mr. Ring asked the Minister for Education due to receive the additional posts will be notified and Science when a person (details supplied) in within this timeframe. County Mayo will be given the resource teaching hours recommended by a NEPS educational Schools Building Projects. psychologist. [12567/04] 172. Mr. Allen asked the Minister for Education and Science the reason Scoil I´osaga´in, Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. Farranree, Cork, which was sanctioned for a new Dempsey): I confirm that my Department sports hall several years ago has not received the received an application for special educational final sanction to proceed to tender; the stage the needs supports for the pupil referred to by the project is at; and when it will be allowed to go to Deputy. tender. [12568/04] Applications for special educational resources received between 15 February and 31 August of Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. last year are being considered at present. More Dempsey): The building project—aGProom at than 5,000 such applications were received. Cases Scoil I´osaga´in, Farranree, Cork — referred to by involving children who started school last the Deputy is listed in section 8 of the 2004 September are being given priority. All such schools building programme, which is published cases were responded to at or before the on my Department’s website, www.education.ie commencement of the current school year. The The project is at stage 4/5, pre-tender documents, balance of more than 4,000 applications has been of architectural planning. It has been assigned a reviewed by a dedicated team comprising band 4 rating by my Department in accordance members of the Department’s inspectorate and with the published criteria for prioritising large- the national educational psychological service. scale projects. Indicative timescales have been The applications are being considered in the included for large-scale projects proceeding to context of the outcome of surveys of special tender in 2004. The budget announcement educational resources provision conducted over regarding multi-annual capital envelopes will the past year, approximately. Data submitted by enable me to adopt a multi-annual framework for schools as part of the nationwide census of special the schools building programme, which in turn educational resources provision are also being will give greater clarity regarding projects that are considered. not progressing to tender in this year’s 1323 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1324

[Mr. N. Dempsey.] the relevant school authorities. My Department programme, including Scoil I´osaga´in. I will make sanctioned a full-time special needs assistant in a further announcement in that regard during August 2000 and five resource teaching hours in the year. January 2001 to cater for the needs of the pupil the school. With regard to the accessibility of Property Acquisition. accommodation in the school, the school 173. Mr. Noonan asked the Minister for authority should ensure that the class is Education and Science if his Department has had appropriately situated to enable the pupil to discussions or negotiations which might lead to participate fully in school activities. It is open to the acquisition of a property (details supplied) by the school authority to use the devolved grant purchase or leasehold; and if he will make a which is paid annually by my Department to deal statement on the matter. [12602/04] with any works required to facilitate access.

Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. School Accommodation. Dempsey): My Department has not had discussions or negotiations about the purchase or 176. Mr. Curran asked the Minister for leasehold of the property in question. Education and Science the number of second level school places available in Lucan, County Residential Institutions Redress Scheme. Dublin; the number of first year enrolments that 174. Mr. Crowe asked the Minister for took place in September 2003; the number of Education and Science if he will address the persons who failed to obtain school places for concerns of a person (details supplied). first year in 2003; and his Department’s plans and [12705/04] projections for second level school places in the Lucan area for the coming years. [12746/04] Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. Dempsey): While I continue to be concerned Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. about the health and well-being of the person Dempsey): The four schools which provide post- referred to by the Deputy, I must point out that primary education in the Lucan area have a he has taken his claim through the various stages current enrolment of 2,420. Given that the of the redress scheme. The Residential extension projects at St. Joseph’s College and Institutions Redress Board and the Residential Cola´iste Pha´draig have almost been completed Institutions Review Committee are independent and that a project to provide a new building for in the performance of their functions, in Cola´iste Cois Life, a developing all-Irish college, accordance with the terms of the Residential will proceed to tender and construction later this Institutions Redress Act 2002. My Department is year, there will be capacity for 3,027 pupils in the not a party to the redress process and it is not Lucan area. Four schools in areas adjoining open to me to make any comment on individual Lucan — Palmerstown, Leixlip and Clondalkin — awards made by the redress board, or to attempt have experienced a significant decline in pupil to intervene with the process. Officials from my numbers over the past five years. Department have met the person in question on Accommodation freed up by the decline provides two separate occasions in the past two weeks and an option in terms of facilitating any further have outlined my Department’s position on the growth in the Lucan area. There were 435 first matter. If individuals are not satisfied with offers year enrolments in the schools in September made by the redress board or the review 2003. Information on the number of persons who committee, they are entitled to proceed with their failed to obtain school places for first year in 2003 cases through the courts. is not available.

Special Educational Needs. Special Educational Needs. ´ 175. Caoimhghı´nOCaola´in asked the Minister 177. Mr. Carey asked the Minister for for Education and Science if he will take steps to Education and Science the reason resources, ensure equality of access to education, including which are required to assist a person (details physical accessibility of schools, for all pupils with supplied) in Dublin 11, have not been made disabilities as shown by the case of a person available; if appropriate supports will be put in (details supplied) in County Donegal. [12720/04] place to ameliorate the effects of this rare Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. condition; and if he will make a statement on the Dempsey): The Department of Education and matter. [12747/04] Science sanctions special educational needs supports for pupils with disabilities in primary Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. schools on an assessed needs basis to facilitate Dempsey): My Department has no record of access to special schools, special classes and having received an application for a computer for mainstream schools on an integrated basis. Such the pupil referred to by the Deputy. Any supports take the form of special class teachers, application received will be considered in the resource teachers and special needs assistants and context of the criteria set out in the relevant are processed on receipt of an application from Department circular. 1325 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1326

Harbours and Piers. by the National Salmon Commission following its comprehensive review of the effectiveness of the 178. Mr. J. O’Keeffe asked the Minister for 2003 tagging scheme. Communications, Marine and Natural Resources if he will provide the funding required for the When presenting its advice on the scheme in environmental impact study of Baltimore 2003, the National Salmon Commission Harbour, so that progress can be made on the recommended that a three-year strategy should Baltimore Harbour development plan. be put in place to ensure, by means of progressive [12466/04] reductions, that the conservation limits specified by its standing scientific committee should be Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N. reached by 2005. In implementing the scheme in Dempsey): Officials from my Department and 2003, and to move towards the attainment of the Department of the Environment, Heritage conservation limits in all districts, the managers and Local Government are considering the of the fisheries boards advised that a pragmatic modalities for the transfer of Baltimore Harbour approach be followed, whereby the districts and certain other harbours operating under the requiring the greatest reduction in their current Harbours Act 1946 to local authority ownership. catches to meet conservation limits should be I expect that the work will take some months to targeted with the greatest cuts in quota. come to fruition as it involves, inter alia, the As the current catch model is largely based on undertaking of an audit of the assets and mixed stock drift net fishery, it was considered liabilities of the harbours to be transferred. As that some reduction should occur in catch levels part of the audit process, plans for the further in all districts. This rationale was based on the development of the harbours and the funding of knowledge that the districts are reporting entities such developments will be considered. rather than discrete catchments and the belief that a reduction in the mixed stock fishery in all Offshore Exploration. districts will further benefit the attainment of 179. Mr. Ferris asked the Minister for conservation limits in districts below the required Communications, Marine and Natural Resources limit. The total allowable commercial catch for the number of exploration wells which have been 2004 is consistent with the National Salmon drilled in the period 1999 to 2004; and if he will Commission’s recommendation last year that a provide details on the results. [12558/04] three-year strategy be put in place aimed at reaching the scientific advice on precautionary Minister for Communications, Marine and catch limits between 2003 and 2005. The Natural Resources (Mr. D. Ahern): Six Conservation of Salmon and Sea Trout By-Law exploration wells were drilled between 1999 and No. 794 of 2004 prescribes, inter alia, the opening 2004, all of them off the north-west, west and and closing dates and the weekly close times for south-west coasts. All six wells have been plugged commercial salmon fishing in 2004, including drift and abandoned. Shell E&P Ireland’s Dooish well nets, draft nets and other fishing engines. These penetrated a substantial column of gas are unchanged, in effect, from last year. condensate, however, the results of which are being analysed. A second well, Statoil’s Cong Properties Acquisition. well, had both oil and gas shows. There are no remaining commitments to drill any exploration 181. Mr. Noonan asked the Minister for wells this year although I understand that a Communications, Marine and Natural Resources company has applied to drill later in the year. if his Department has had discussions or negotiations which might lead to the acquisition Fisheries Protection. of a property (details supplied) by purchase or leasehold; and if he will make a statement on the 180. Mr. Ferris asked the Minister for matter. [12603/04] Communications, Marine and Natural Resources the basis on which recent cuts in quota and Minister for Communications, Marine and fishing time for salmon fishermen in Kerry have Natural Resources (Mr. D. Ahern): My been made. [12561/04] Department has no record of discussions or negotiations in connection with the purchase or Minister for Communications, Marine and lease of the former Stella Maris Mercy Convent Natural Resources (Mr. D. Ahern): I rely on the and boarding school at Mount Trenchard, advice of the National Salmon Commission and Foynes, County Limerick. the managers of the regional fisheries boards to determine the terms of the wild salmon and sea- Exploration Licences. trout tagging scheme, which, inter alia, sets out the quotas for the commercial catch in each of 182. Mr. Ferris asked the Minister for the 17 fishery districts, including the Kerry Communications, Marine and Natural Resources district. The district quotas for 2004 have been set the number of applications for oil and gas out in regulations which my colleague, the exploration licences made between 1999 and Minister of State, Deputy Browne, signed on 7 2004; the number which were successful; and the April last, to revise the scheme for 2004. The number which were so-called frontier licences. district quotas were firmly recommended to me [12641/04] 1327 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1328

Minister for Communications, Marine and emphasising the importance of taking all Natural Resources (Mr. D. Ahern): During this necessary and appropriate steps on an ongoing period my Department received 40 applications basis to control lice levels at the farm. I am for authorisations in the Irish Offshore. Of these advised that the operators are co-operating fully 40 applications two were for petroleum leases, in dealing with the present position. two for lease undertakings, three for frontier More generally, I can assure the Deputy that exploration licences, 19 for licensing options and the control of sea lice levels at offshore finfish fourteen for petroleum prospecting licences. farms is a priority, and that my Department is Some 38 authorisations were awarded as a result. committed to ensuring the effective operation of Two applications — one for a licensing option the extensive and rigorous programme that has and one for a petroleum prospecting licence, been developed to deal with the matter. were withdrawn. My Department also received two applications Fishing Licences. for onshore exploration licences and one 185. Mr. Morgan asked the Minister for application for an onshore licensing option. Communications, Marine and Natural Resources Authorisations were awarded in these three the proposals his Department will introduce to cases. An application for an onshore petroleum purchase the licences of draft and drift fishermen; prospecting Licence has been received and is the estimated cost of these proposals; the currently under consideration. consequential effect of such proposals on salmon stocks; when such proposals will be implemented; Salmon Lice. and if he will make a statement on the matter. 183. Mr. Eamon Ryan asked the Minister for [12752/04] Communications, Marine and Natural Resources if his Department’s attention has been drawn to Minister for Communications, Marine and reports that lice levels at a location (details Natural Resources (Mr. D. Ahern): The supplied) in County Galway in February 2004 overriding objective of the Government is to were greatly in excess of the levels permitted preserve the salmon resource in its own right and under the licensing agreement and under State for the coastal and rural communities that it helps protocol. [12642/04] to support. The economic goals for a sustainable commercial salmon fishery based on quality and 184. Mr. Eamon Ryan asked the Minister for value rather than volume and the development of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources salmon angling as an important tourism product the action his Department has taken on the are both fully compatible with the primary follow up to reported levels of lice at a location objective. (details supplied) in County Galway; and the The current strategy of developing a enforcement action which has been taken by his sustainable commercial and recreational salmon Department in its role as licenser for salmon fishery through aligning catches on the scientific farms in this particularly sensitive area. advice by next year hold out the strong prospect [12643/04] of a recovery of stocks and of a long term sustainable fishery for both sectors. Minister for Communications, Marine and As a result, I have no plans to introduce Natural Resources (Mr. D. Ahern): I propose to proposals to purchase commercial salmon fishing take Questions Nos. 183 and 184 together. licences but I intend to keep the matter under A comprehensive programme of monitoring review in the context of the policy outlined and control of sea lice levels at marine finfish above. farms is carried out on behalf of my Department by the Marine Institute. The inspection carried Property Acquisition. out at the fish farm in question in January of this year found that sea lice numbers were below the 186. Mr. Noonan asked the Minister for Arts, level specified in respect of that time of the year. Sport and Tourism if his Department has had However the subsequent inspection in February discussions or negotiations which might lead to detected elevated levels of ovigerous and mobile the acquisition of a property (details supplied) by lice. For this reason, a notice was served on the purchase or leasehold; and if he will make a operators requiring them to treat the fish at the statement on the matter. [12604/04] farm against lice. Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. The first inspection of the farm in March found O’Donoghue): My Department has had no that, notwithstanding the treatment undertaken, discussions or negotiations which might lead to lice levels were still high. Further treatments the acquisition by purchase or leasehold of the have, therefore, been undertaken by the property in question. operators. As a result, the second inspection in March and the first inspection in April both found progressive and substantial decreases in Sports Capital Programme. lice levels. 187. Mr. Penrose asked the Minister for Arts, My Department is monitoring the situation Sport and Tourism if he will take steps to ensure closely and has written to the farm operators that an application for grants under the sports 1329 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1330 capital programme by an organisation (details a report prepared for consideration by Comhairle supplied) in County Westmeath is dealt with; na nOspide´al by the end of the year. I do not when such grants will be approved; and if he will intend to request an interim report. make a statement on the matter. [12706/04] Vaccination Programme. Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. O’Donoghue): The 2004 sports capital 190. Mr. J. Higgins asked the Minister for programme was advertised in the national Health and Children if his Department will put in newspapers on 30 November and 1 December place immediately a compensation scheme for all 2003. The closing date for receipt of applications persons who were brain damaged by vaccines was 16 January 2004. A total of 1,304 applications administered in this State as recommended by the were received before the closing date, including Oireachtas Joint Committee on Health and one from the organisation in question. All Children as a matter of urgency in its July 2001 applications are currently being evaluated against report; and if he will make a statement on the the programme’s assessment criteria, which are matter. [12452/04] outlined in the guidelines, terms and conditions 191. Mr. J. Higgins asked the Minister for of the programme. I intend to announce the grant Health and Children the reason a period of two allocations for the programme as soon as possible years has elapsed since the Irish Vaccine Injury after this evaluation process has been completed. Campaign was promised that a compensation scheme for all persons who were brain damaged Arts Council. by vaccines administered in this State would be 188. Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for Arts, set up without indication of such a scheme being Sport and Tourism if he will use his powers under set up in the immediate future; and if he will the Arts Act to direct the Arts Council to meet make a statement on the matter. [12453/04] with the promoters of the Anna Livia Opera 194. Ms Harkin asked the Minister for Health Festival, Dublin, with a view to offering advice or and Children when the compensation scheme will financial assistance; and if he will make a be put in place for all persons who were brain statement on the matter. [12707/04] damaged by vaccines administered in this State, Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. following the recommendations of the Oireachtas O’Donoghue): I have no powers to direct the Joint Committee on Health and Children report Arts Council, as suggested by the Deputy. of July 2001 that this compensation scheme should be put in place as matter of urgency. Hospital Services. [12480/04] 189. Mr. Naughten asked the Minister for Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): Health and Children when a reply will be issued The matters raised by the group concerned at the to correspondence (details supplied); the reason meeting in April 2002 were considered by my for the delay in replying to same; and if he will Department. A preliminary review of the make a statement on the matter. [12446/04] schemes in place in a number of other countries was subsequently undertaken by my Department; Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): this preliminary review involved a general A reply issued to the person referred to by the overview of details of schemes in place in a Deputy on 9 March 2004. As the House is aware, number of other countries. This review was done I asked Comhairle na nOspide´al to carry out a in order to establish general details of schemes review of neurosurgical services and to prepare a already in existence; however, a detailed report for my consideration. Comhairle was examination of such schemes has not yet been asked to focus, in particular, on the provision of undertaken. adequate capacity and consideration of equity of My Department is keeping the position in access to neurosurgical services having regard to relation to the possible establishment of an best practice in the provision of quality alleged vaccine damage compensation scheme healthcare. Comhairle established a committee to under review. review neurosurgical services. To date, the committee has reviewed the Children in Care. international literature and visited neurosurgery units at Beaumont Hospital and Cork University 192. Ms M. Wallace asked the Minister for Hospital where they met with consultant Health and Children if he will outline the neurosurgeons and management representatives. guidelines which cover foster parents and legal guardians for children; and if he will make a The committee has also visited Galway to meet statement on the matter. [12461/04] with consultant and management representatives of the Western Health Board and representatives Minister of State at the Department of Health of the Western Neurosurgery Campaign. The and Children (Mr. B. Lenihan): I understand that work of the committee on neurosurgical services the Deputy is seeking information on the rights is ongoing and plans are underway to visit of an individual who has been granted legal neurosurgery units outside Ireland in the coming guardianship of a child. I should explain that the months. The committee is endeavouring to have Department of Health and Children has no 1331 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1332

[Mr. B. Lenihan.] Minister of State at the Department of Health responsibility in relation to this matter. As the and Children (Mr. T. O’Malley): Responsibility Deputy is aware, health boards under the for the provision of funding for services to provisions of the Child Care Act 1991, are persons with intellectual disability and those with responsible for the provision of child welfare and autism, including the provision of a high support protection services including foster care. activation centre in the Ballinasloe area lies, in However, health boards have no responsibility the first instance, with the Western Health board. for family law issues such as that raised by the My Department has, therefore, asked the chief Deputy. executive officer of the board to investigate the matter raised by the Deputy and reply directly Home Help Service. to him. 193. Mr. G. Mitchell asked the Minister for Health and Children if a person (details supplied) Hospital Services. in Dublin 12 can have their two hours a day home 197. Mr. Connaughton asked the Minister for help restored after a stay in hospital; and if he Health and Children the position regarding the will make a statement on the matter. [12479/04] regional neurosurgery unit in the west; the reason Minister of State at the Department of Health it has taken so long for a decision to be made; and Children (Mr. Callely): As the Deputy will and if he will make a statement on the matter. be aware, the provision of health services in the [12502/04] Dublin 12 area is, in the first instance, the Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): responsibility of the South Western Area Health As the Deputy is aware, I asked Comhairle na Board acting under the aegis of the Eastern nOspide´al to carry out a review of neurosurgical Regional Health Authority. My Department has, services and to prepare a report for my therefore, asked the chief executive of the consideration. Comhairle was asked to focus, in authority to investigate the matter raised by the particular, on the provision of adequate capacity Deputy and reply direct to him as a matter of and consideration of equity of access to urgency. neurosurgical services having regard to best practice in the provision of quality healthcare. Question No. 194 answered with Question Comhairle established a committee to review No. 190. neurosurgical services. To date, the committee has reviewed the Central Mental Hospital. international literature and visited neurosurgery 195. Mr. O’Dowd asked the Minister for units at Beaumont Hospital and Cork University Health and Children the educational facilities and Hospital where they met with consultant services that are available for a person (details neurosurgeons and management representatives. supplied) detained in the Central Mental The committee has also visited Galway to meet Hospital; and if there are proposals to provide with consultant and management representatives further educational facilities and services. of the Western Health Board and representatives [12500/04] of the Western Neurosurgery Campaign. The work of the committee on neurosurgical services Minister of State at the Department of Health is ongoing and plans are underway to visit and Children (Mr. T. O’Malley): Responsibility neurosurgery units outside Ireland in the coming for the provision of care and treatment of the months. The committee is endeavouring to have named individual rests with the Eastern Regional a report prepared for consideration by Comhairle Health Authority. My Department has therefore na nOspide´al by the end of the year. I do not asked the regional chief executive officer to intend to request an interim report. investigate the matter raised by the Deputy and reply to him directly. Hospital Funding. Services for People with Disabilities. 198. Mr. Ferris asked the Minister for Health and Children if he will make a statement on the 196. Mr. Connaughton asked the Minister for fact that Tralee General Hospital was Health and Children the reasons demands made underfunded by \2.5 million in 2003 and \1.25 by the Ballinasloe advocates concerning the million in 2004, and that this will result in the availability of disability services in the Ballinasloe closure of one ward for three months in the area have not been met; the reason a high support summer of 2004 due to the fact that the hospital activation centre has not been built in Ballinasloe will not have the money to allow for staff stand- as a follow on from the TOPE scheme; the ins when they are on holiday. [12504/04] further reason the Western Health Board have informed this group that the project cannot be Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): built due to lack of funding despite the fact that It is a feature of all acute hospital systems that the Western Health Board has a budget surplus some beds are out of use for short periods. Bed of \15 million for the years 2002 and 2003; and if closures fluctuate over time and may arise for a he will make a statement on the matter. variety of reasons such as staff leave and seasonal [12501/04] closures. My Department understands that the 1333 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1334 seasonal closure of the ward in Tralee General in question, since responsibility for property Hospital will be similar to the seasonal closure of acquisition or disposal does not rest with the some beds that occurred in 2003. This seasonal Department of Health and Children. To date, the closure will enable hospital management to co- health board has no information regarding this ordinate annual leave for staff and thus reduce matter. This Department has therefore asked the the level of locum cover needed while staff are Minister for Education and Science to investigate on holiday. the matter raised by the Deputy and reply to My Department allocates funding on an annual him directly. basis to the Southern Health Board for the provision of health services. Distribution of this Long-Term Illness Scheme. funding to individual hospitals in the region is a 202. Ms McManus asked the Minister for matter for the board. Therefore, my Department Health and Children the position with regard to has asked the chief executive officer of the board the inclusion of Crohns Disease in the long-term to reply directly to the Deputy in relation to the illness scheme; and if he will make a statement level of funding provided for Tralee General on the matter. [12701/04] Hospital. Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): Medical Students’ Entitlements. Under the 1970 Health Act, a health board may 199. Ms McManus asked the Minister for arrange for the supply without charge of drugs, Health and Children if he will extend medicines and medical and surgical appliances to entitlements to external placement allowance, people with any of the following conditions who travel allowance and uniform allowance, all do not have a medical card, for the treatment of granted to student nurses to student that condition under the long-term illness radiographers and physiotherapists; and if he will scheme- mental handicap, mental illness (for make a statement on the matter. [12575/04] people under 16 only), phenylketonuria, cystic fibrosis, spina bifida, hydrocephalus, diabetes Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): mellitus, diabetes insipidus, haemophilia, cerebral The allowances referred to by the Deputy were palsy, epilepsy, multiple sclerosis, muscular made available to student nurses during their dystrophies, Parkinsonism, conditions arising training following the introduction of the pre- from thalidomide and acute leukaemia. There are registration nursing diploma programme and the currently no plans to amend the list of eligible removal of their salaried status. This situation conditions. does not pertain for physiotherapy and There are a range of other schemes that radiography students undertaking clinical training provide assistance towards the cost of approved in the health service. drugs and medicines for people with significant ongoing medical expenses. People who cannot, Rent Allowances. without undue hardship, arrange for the provision 200. Mr. McGuinness asked the Minister for of medical services for themselves and their Health and Children if an appeal for rent dependants may be entitled to a medical card. allowance in the case of a person (details Eligibility for a medical card is solely a matter for supplied) in County Kilkenny will be expedited; the chief executive officer of the relevant health if the fact that they have a partner and one child board. In determining eligibility, the CEO has will be considered. [12583/04] regard to the applicant’s financial circumstances. Health boards use income guidelines to assist in Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): determining eligibility. However, where a Decisions in relation to the payments of rent person’s income exceeds the guidelines, a medical allowance is a matter for the relevant health card may be awarded if the CEO considers that board. In the case of County Kilkenny, this the person’s medical needs or other responsibility rests with the South Eastern Health circumstances would justify this. Medical cards Board. My Department has been in contact with may also be issued to individual family members the board and has asked the chief executive on this basis. Non-medical card holders, and officer to investigate this matter and respond people with conditions not covered under the directly to the Deputy. LTI, can use the drugs payment scheme. Under this scheme, no individual or family unit pays Property Acquisition. more than \78 per calendar month towards the 201. Mr. Noonan asked the Minister for Health cost of approved prescribed medicines. and Children if his Department has had discussions or negotiations which might lead to Hospital Waiting Lists. the acquisition of a property (details supplied) by 203. Mr. Ring asked the Minister for Health purchase or leasehold; and if he will make a and Children when a person (details supplied) in statement on the matter. [12605/04] County Mayo will be called for hip surgery; and Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): when this person was placed on the waiting list in Investigations have been made with the Mid Galway Regional and Cappagh hospitals. Western Health Board in relation to the property [12702/04] 1335 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1336

Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): Department has asked the regional chief The provision of hospital services for people executive to investigate the matter raised by the living in County Mayo is a matter for the Western Deputy and to reply to him directly. Health Board. My Department has asked the chief executive officer of the board to reply Autism Services. directly to the Deputy in relation to the matter 207. Mr. Carey asked the Minister for Health raised. and Children the reason resources, which are required to assist a person (details supplied) in Hospital Services. Dublin 11, have not been made available; if 204. Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in asked the Minister appropriate supports will be put in place to for Health and Children if, in regard to a person ameliorate the effects of this rare condition; and (details supplied) in Dublin 17, the date for a if he will make a statement on the matter. consultancy can be brought forward. [12703/04] [13145/04] Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): Minister of State at the Department of Health Responsibility for the provision of health services and Children (Mr. T. O’Malley): Responsibility to persons living in counties Dublin, Kildare and for the provision of services to persons with Wicklow rests with the Eastern Regional Health intellectual disability or autism in the Dublin Authority. My Department has, therefore, asked region lies with the Eastern Regional Health the regional chief executive of the authority to Authority. My Department has therefore, written investigate the matter raised by the Deputy and to the regional chief executive of the authority to reply to him directly. and asked him to investigate the matter of speech and language therapy. The other issues raised by Hospital Staff. the Deputy are a matter for the Department of 205. Mr. Sherlock asked the Minister for Education and Science. Health and Children if he will report on the permanent appointment of consultant Parking Permits for the Disabled. radiologists and a geriatrician at Mallow General 208. Mr. McGuinness asked the Minister for Hospital and approval for a CT scanner. Transport if the medical criteria set out by his [12704/04] Department relative to the issue of parking Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): permits for the disabled cover those with autism; I have already agreed that the appointment of a if parents of autistic children come within the consultant geriatrician based at Mallow General criteria set down; if not, if he intends to address Hospital should proceed. Details in relation to the issue; and if he will make a statement on the the funding of the post and the structure of the matter. [12464/04] post with regard to the delivery of an appropriate Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): The service to the elderly population of the area are Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) Regulations being finalised between my Department and the 1997 empower local authorities, the Irish Southern Health Board. Wheelchair Association and the Disabled The Southern Health Board has submitted Drivers’ Association to grant a disabled person’s applications for approval of consultant radiologist parking permit where they are satisfied that the posts that would provide consultant radiologist applicant is suffering from a disability that cover for Mallow General Hospital. Funding for prevents him or her from walking or causes these posts will be considered in the context of undue hardship to the person in walking. No available revenue funding in 2004. specific medical condition is stipulated in the The provision of CT facilities at Mallow is a regulations. matter for the Southern Health Board to progress Where the permit is displayed on a vehicle, a and I believe a submission is to be completed range of parking restrictions established through shortly and will be sympathetically considered by the regulations do not apply is respect of that my Department in the context of the overall vehicle where it is parked for the convenience of capital development plan for the hospital. the person to whom the permit was granted.

Orthodontic Services. Decentralisation Programme. 206. Mr. Carey asked the Minister for Health 209. Mr. Stanton asked the Minister for and Children further to a previous parliamentary Transport the details regarding his question, if a person (details supplied) in Dublin decentralisation proposals for Mitchelstown, 11 is likely to receive orthodontic treatment; and County Cork, as announced in the budget; the if he will make a statement on the matter. numbers to be decentralised to Mitchelstown; the [12744/04] appointment of each worker position that will be Minister for Health and Children (Mr. Martin): decentralised; when he expects this Responsibility for the provision of orthodontic decentralisation proposal to be complete; and if treatment to eligible persons in Dublin 11 rests he will make a statement on the matter. with the Eastern Regional Health Authority. My [8984/04] 1337 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1338

Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): Details Traffic Management. of the positions to be transferred have not yet 213. Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for been finalised. To date, in the Transport Transport the extent to which he proposes to implementation group more than 80 posts that organise traffic management in the greater could be transferred from Bus E´ ireann have been Dublin area for various other towns and cities identified. Discussions with Bus E´ ireann are throughout the country; and if he will make a continuing and the chairman has been asked to statement on the matter. [12710/04] examine urgently the options for meeting the overall target of 200 for Mitchelstown. Bus Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): Local E´ ireann, along with the other organisations traffic management measures in towns and cities involved in the decentralisation programme, have is a matter for the relevant local authority and been asked to prepare an implementation plan by the Department of the Environment, Heritage the end of May. and Local Government makes funding available for that purpose. In addition, my Department Driving Tests. makes funding available to local authorities with the objective of promoting public transport. 210. Mr. McGuinness asked the Minister for In the greater Dublin area, funding is made Transport the reason a driver’s licence was available by my Department to the Dublin refused to a person (details supplied) in County Transportation Office for allocation to local Kilkenny who passed their test; if the refusal had authorities for the implementation of traffic to do with their status in this country; the reason management measures, with quality bus corridors they were allowed to sit the test; if he will make as a priority. A sum of \40 million is being made a statement on the matter and how he intends to available in 2004. deal with this case. [12587/04] Since 2002 my Department has been providing Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): On the funds for the development of quality bus basis of the information supplied my Department corridors and park and ride facilities in the city. cannot locate any record of the person concerned This year, the Department is providing \6 million having passed a driving test. Under the Road for the funding of these projects. Almost \1 Traffic Act 1961 and the Road Traffic (Licensing million is being provided for Galway and of Drivers) Regulations 1999 to 2001, it is a \400,000 for Waterford and I have invited these matter for the appropriate licensing authority and councils to bring forward additional measures for not my Department to determine the eligibility of funding. In addition, the National Roads a person for a driving licence, and to issue Authority has been asked to allocate funds to licences. If the person has a certificate of promoting improved traffic management competency he should furnish it to the local measures on its network. licensing authority with an application for a licence. Question No. 214 answered orally with Question No. 45. Departmental Property. Road Network. 211. Mr. Noonan asked the Minister for Transport if his Department has had discussions 215. Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for or negotiations which might lead to the Transport his proposals for crossing the M50 at acquisition of a property (details supplied) by the Red Cow roundabout without the disruption purchase or leasehold; and if he will make a of existing traffic; and if he will make a statement statement on the matter. [12606/04] on the matter. [12712/04] Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): My Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): The Department has had no discussions or implementation of the national roads programme negotiations which might lead to the acquisition and the planning, design and construction of of a property (details supplied) by purchase or individual projects, including the proposed leasehold. upgrade of the M50, is a matter for the National Roads Authority, NRA, in conjunction with the Driving Tests. relevant local authorities. I understand from the NRA that the position 212. Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for relating to the Red Cow roundabout is that the Transport if and when an early driving test upgrade works proposed at the roundabout as appointment can be offered to a person (details part of the overall M50 upgrade project are supplied) in County Kildare; and if he will make intended to remove as much traffic as possible a statement on the matter. [12708/04] from the signal controlled environment through Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): A the provision of additional structures and free- driving test will be arranged in due course for the flow slips that are separated from other traffic person concerned. My Department has received movements. This will significantly increase the no documentary evidence from the person overall capacity of the interchange. Subject to concerned in supporting his need for an early satisfactory progress in planning and design and test appointment. securing An Bord Pleana´la approval, it is 1339 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1340

[Mr. Brennan.] Some 40 further DART cars have also been expected that work on upgrading the Red Cow ordered. interchange will commence in spring 2005 and be In the period between 2000 and the end of 2002 completed by spring 2007. In accordance with Iarnro´ dE´ ireann doubled the capacity of the usual practice on major road improvement Maynooth-Dublin line. This was achieved projects, traffic management arrangements will through double-tracking the Maynooth route and be put in place to maintain traffic flow during the purchase of new diesel rail cars. Some 80 new construction. diesel rail cars are now in service providing capacity increases as follows: northern line — 216. Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for 43%, Arklow-Dublin — 30%, Maynooth line — Transport the progress to date in respect of his 24%, and Kildare line — 130%. The first phase plans to upgrade the Port tunnel to cater for of the Kildare route enhancement was delivered anticipated traffic; and if he will make a in December 2003 — Newbridge turn-back statement on the matter. [12713/04] facility and eight-car platforms at Sallins and Hazlehatch. Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): The Some 67 new mainline rail carriages will be in position in relation to the height of the tunnel use on primary inter-city routes by the end of is that my Department appointed consultants to 2005. Work on re-signalling routes continues on review the feasibility, safety implications and cost target and within budget. The Galway line is of raising the height of the Dublin Port tunnel. completed and attention is now focused on the They were requested to review a range of options Waterford line, which will be followed by Tralee for increasing the operational height of the to Mallow and then the Sligo line. Up to 30 tunnel, their feasibility, having regard to the state minutes reduction in journey times has already of implementation of the current design and build been achieved for many routes. contract and the likely additional costs and Work on providing new platforms, signaling impact on the project completion date. systems, track work and much improved Having reviewed the findings of the report, customer facilities at Heuston Station, at a cost of further information has been sought from the \117 million, is complete and has already made a NRA pertaining to its conclusions in particular significant contribution to improving the services relation to the costs should the tunnel height be on both inter-city and Kildare suburban services. increased. As a result, the contractors have been The Exchequer has invested more than \20 requested to provide a fixed price cost for the million in fleet replacement in Bus A´ tha Cliath work involved. Following receipt of this during 2002-2003. A further \18.6 million has information a decision on the height of the been spent on garage facilities, mainly for the Dublin Port tunnel will be made. new garage in Harristown. The Exchequer has invested more than \10 National Development Plan. million in fleet replacement in Bus E´ ireann 217. Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for during 2002 and 2003, mostly for replacement Transport the position in regard to his buses for Cork city service in 2002, and for \ Department’s projects as identified in the regional buses in 2003. More than 200,000 was national development plan with particular spent on Athlone bus station. reference to road, rail and air proposals; and if he Under the rural transport initiative, RTI, which will make a statement on the matter. [12714/04] was launched in July 2001, 34 rural community groups, covering almost all counties, are currently Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): being funded to operate pilot rural transport Significant progress in capacity enhancement in services in their areas. Approximately 380 new public transport has been made since the national rural routes have been established under the development plan got under way in 2000. Luas initiative and some 20,000 people are using the passenger services will commence on the RTI transport services each month. Some \3 Sandyford line end of June 2004 and on the million has been provided annually for the Tallaght line end of August 2004. The Rail scheme since 2002 and a further \3 million is Procurement Agency, RPA, have informed me being provided for this purpose in 2004. that the project is within the \691 million budget The public transport accessibility committee and \84 million risk provision as notified to the was established in July 2000 to advise me on Government in 2002. public transport accessibility issues. The In the period between 2000 and the end of 2002 committee is comprised of representatives of a Iarnro´ dE´ ireann delivered a 50% capacity number of organisations representing older increase on the DART. The current DART people and people with mobility and sensory upgrade project will finalise Iarnro´ dE´ ireann’s impairments along with representatives of the plans to increase DART capacity by just short of principal public transport providers. 100%. Phase 1 of that project is under way. This Some \8.5 million was expended on public involves upgrading platforms and stations on the transport accessibility projects for the mobility DART line to cater for the operation of eight- and sensory impaired in the period 2001 to 2003, car DARTs and replacing the overhead cabling. mainly for the construction of footbridges and the 1341 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1342 installation of lifts for the mobility and sensory 220. Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for impaired at railway stations, the upgrading of bus Transport the daily passenger capacity of Sallins stations, and disability awareness training for CIE railway station; the extent to which it is expected frontline staff. A further \5 million is being to augment these numbers; and if he will make a provided in 2004 for additional public transport statement on the matter. [12719/04] accessibility projects. Good progress has been made in the Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): I implementation of the national roads upgrade propose to take Questions Nos. 219 and 220 programme provided for in the NDP. To date, 37 together. projects — a total of 256 km. including 76 km. of Iarnro´ dE´ ireann has informed me that it has motorway and 50km of dual carriageway increased the commuter capacity of the Kildare standard — have been completed. In addition, route by 130% since the new timetable was work is under way on 17 projects totalling 148 km introduced on 14 December 2003. A number of including 120 km to motorway — dual the new diesel rail cars, acquired by the company carriageway standard, while another 17 projects in 2003, were assigned to the route to lengthen — a total of 160 km — are at tender stage. In the trains to eight cars. In addition, new turn-back relation to the five major inter-urban routes, the facilities at Hazelhatch and Sallins were installed position is that, at the end of 2003, nearly 30% of to allow more efficient use of the available train these routes had been upgraded to motorway- paths into and out of Heuston in the peak dual carriageway standard with work under way periods. on approximately another 12%. A further 36 diesel rail cars have been ordered Funding has been made available towards recently to increase further the capacity on outer infrastructural works and upgrades in facilities to suburban routes serving Dublin. maintain continued safe and viable operation of Iarnro´ dE´ ireann is now proceeding with plans the six regional airports in Kerry, Waterford, to quadruple a section of the route between Galway, Sligo, Knock, and Donegal. During the Cherry Orchard and Hazelhatch, as part of the period 2000 to 2004 more than 30 projects were \ Kildare route project, which will enable the undertaken and grant aid of approximately 9 separation of inter-city and commuting traffic and million has been paid to the various airport increase the capacity of the line. I await the companies to date. details of the project as part of the railway order process. I understand that the company is in the Rail Services. process of completing the draft order and I 218. Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for understand that the application will be submitted Transport if he has proposals to increase the daily to me in the coming months. commuter capacity at Kilcock, Maynooth, Leixlip and Confey rail stations over a specific period; Question No. 221 answered with Question and if he will make a statement on the matter. No. 50. [12717/04] Railway Safety Commission. Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): Iam informed by Iarnro´ dE´ ireann that, since the 222. Mr. Naughten asked the Minister for introduction of the new timetable in December Transport when the Railway Safety Commission 2003, capacity has been increased by 24% on the will be established; if he has satisfied himself with Maynooth route, which serves Kilcock, the current arrangements; and if he will make a Maynooth, Leixlip and Confey. This has been statement on the matter. [12750/04] achieved by introducing to the route some of the Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): I refer new fleet of 80 diesel rail cars that it took delivery the Deputy to my reply to Priority Question of over the past few months. This latest capacity No. 43. increase comes on top of a 100% increase achieved in 2001 when the double tracking of the Road Safety Programmes. route was completed. In addition, Iarnro´ dE´ ireann has recently 223. Mr. Neville asked the Minister for placed an order for another 36 diesel rail cars, Transport the cumulative total provided towards which will be delivered in 2005. It is proposed road safety programmes and research since 1998 that some of these rail cars will operate on the inclusive. [12751/04] Maynooth line to increase capacity further. Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): The 219. Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for following table sets out the Exchequer funding Transport the daily passenger capacity at the for the road safety agencies under the aegis of the Hazelhatch railway station; if he expects to Department of Transport for the period 1998 to increase these numbers over a specific period; 2004. The funding provision for each of the and if he will make a statement on the matter. organisations supports the carrying out of [12718/04] research into various aspects of road safety by the 1343 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1344

[Mr. Brennan.] carried out in relation to traffic law enforcement three bodies. The allocation of specific funding to is a matter for the Garda Sı´ocha´na and the support such research programmes is a matter for Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. their determination. The funding of any research

State Body 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004

\\\\\ \ \ National Safety Council 1.148 1.290 1.202 2.484 2.941 2.758 2.886 Medical Bureau of Road Safety .794 1.380 1.565 1.771 1.728 2.067 2.337 National Roads Authority 9.430 10.506 10.819 11.906 7.953 9.708 17.265

Total 11,372 13.176 13.586 16.161 12.622 14.533 22.488

State Airports. areas. I am also satisfied that with a fresh start 224. Ms Shortall asked the Minister for under strong and visionary new leadership, all Transport the reason for the delay in providing three airports will be better positioned to adapt the business information to union representatives more quickly to the new challenges and in Aer Rianta; and the length of time he proposes opportunities of the rapidly changing aviation to allow for adequate consideration of this prior environment. to the publication of the State airports Bill. [12722/04] Prison Service Staff. Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): As the 226. Mr. Naughten asked the Minister for Deputy is aware, I gave an undertaking to the Justice, Equality and Law Reform , further to Aer Rianta unions that, subject to agreeing Question No 157 of 11 March 2004, and the suitable arrangements to deal with commercially associated letter of 30 March 2004, if he will sensitive material, I would make available share clarify the exact application of all public service key financial information on the three State pay round increases already applied to prison airports before the text of the amending service staff from 1980 to date; the result of the legislation to give effect to the restructuring of application of same to the post of prison the company is approved by the Government. chaplains; and if he will make a statement on the This information was provided to the unions’ matter. [12454/04] financial advisers on Friday of last week. Both the unions and their advisers are aware of my Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform intention to have the new legislation enacted (Mr. McDowell): As stated in my letter of 30 before the summer recess. I have asked the March 2004, the Irish Prison Service has unions to respond to the financial information conducted a thorough search of its files and has over the next two weeks. documented all information available in relation to chaplains’ salary. To revisit these files in order 225. Mr. Naughten asked the Minister for to clarify the exact application of all public Transport if his Department has resolved the service pay round increases applied to prison staff legal difficulties surrounding the break-up of Aer Rianta; if he has satisfied himself that the three from 1980 would take an inordinate amount of airports are commercially viable as stand alone staff time and resources, which could not be entities; and if he will make a statement on the justified given the present climate. matter. [12754/04] However, the Deputy may be interested to know that the Irish Prison Service is in Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): As I discussions with the Co-ordinating Chaplaincy have stated on previous occasions in this House, Group, which was appointed by the Irish the implementation of the Government’s decision Episcopal Conference to represent the Catholic to restructure Aer Rianta is a strategically chaplains, in relation to the salary and conditions important but complex project. My Department of service. These discussions are at an advanced and its advisers have now clarified the significant stage and it is hoped that they will be concluded technical and legal issues which will determine in the near future to the satisfaction of all parties. the scope and content of the necessary amending legislation to give effect to the restructuring. It is Prisoners’ Voting Rights. my intention to have that legislation enacted before the summer recess and I do not wish to 227. Mr. J. O’Keeffe asked the Minister for pre-empt its contents before it is approved by Justice, Equality and Law Reform his views on Government and published. the decision of the European Court of Human I believe that each of the airports will be a Rights, which ruled that denying prisoners the commercial success and will maximise sustainable right to vote was in breach of the European economic activity both within the airport convention; and his proposals in this regard. companies themselves and in their catchment [12455/04] 1345 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1346

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform documents for various authorities and signing (Mr. McDowell): As I indicated previously, in certificates and orders under various Acts. I do reply to Question No. 175 of 7 April 2004 and not propose to amend the legislation relating to Question No. 693 of 27 April 2004, the European peace commissioners at this time, but I will keep Court of Human Rights, ECHR, in a judgment the matter under review. adopted on 9 March 2004, found that a breach of Article 3 of Protocol 1 to the European Visa Applications. Convention on Human Rights had occurred in a 229. Mr. McGuinness asked the Minister for case taken by a prisoner in the United Kingdom. Justice, Equality and Law Reform further to The prisoner, who is serving a sentence of life Parliamentary Question No. 174 of 12 February imprisonment, had complained that, as a 2004 if he will give a decision in the case in view convicted prisoner, he was subject to a blanket of the length of time the file has been with his ban on voting in elections. This was as a result of Department. [12460/04] legislation in the UK, section 3 of the Representation of the People Act 1983, which Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform prohibits a convicted person from voting in a (Mr. McDowell): The immigration division of my parliamentary or local election during the term of Department has written to the person concerned his or her detention in a penal institution. There on three occasions requesting information to is no such legislation in this country which assist with the determination of the application in prohibits a sentenced person from voting. question. There has been no response from the The Supreme Court, while taking cognisance of person to date. Consideration of the application the fact that there are no statutory provisions cannot proceed pending the receipt of the which prohibit a convicted prisoner from voting, information requested. has held that the State is under no constitutional obligation to facilitate prisoners in the exercise of 230. Mr. S. Power asked the Minister for that franchise. Justice, Equality and Law Reform the reason a I have, however, brought the recent ruling of visa was refused for two persons (details the ECHR to the attention of both the Attorney supplied); and if he will make a statement on the General and the Minister for the Environment, matter. [12467/04] Heritage and Local Government who has primary responsibility for electoral legislation and Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform I will consider the implications of the court’s (Mr. McDowell): The visa applications in judgment in consultation with my colleagues. question were to enable the wife and daughter of a non-EEA national employed in the State under Peace Commissioners. the work permit scheme to join him. A worker employed under this scheme may be joined by 228. Mr. J. O’Keeffe asked the Minister for their spouse and minor children after the worker Justice, Equality and Law Reform the power, has been in the State for one year and has been duties and responsibilities of Peace offered a contract for a further year. The worker Commissioners; and his proposals to enhance must also be able to fully support the family their role. [12456/04] members in question without the need to have Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform recourse to public funds. The applications in (Mr. McDowell): The duties and powers of a question were refused as the supporting peace commissioner as set out in section 88(3) of documentation did not show that the worker was the Courts of Justice Act 1924 allows for: (a) in a position to fully support the family members. signing summonses (except against a garda); (b) The applications were reconsidered by a visa signing warrants; (c) administering oaths and appeals officer who agreed with the concerns of taking declarations, affirmations, information, the visa officer and confirmed the refusal of the bonds and recognisances; and (d) signing applications. certificates for the registration of clubs. Peace It is open to the applicants to make fresh commissioners are also empowered to sign applications, enclosing up to date pay slips or a certificates for the destruction of food unfit for P60 as evidence of the worker’s income. consumption under food hygiene regulations. The issuing of summonses and warrants was subject to May Day Protests. a number of legal challenges in the late 1980s and 231. Mr. Cuffe asked the Minister for Justice, early 1990s and decisions of the superior courts Equality and Law Reform the efforts the Garda raised serious doubts about the constitutional Sı´ocha´na has made to meet with and negotiate competence of peace commissioners to exercise with those planning to protest or demonstrate such powers. Peace commissioners are, therefore, over the May Day bank holiday weekend 2004 in no longer requested to exercise the powers to order to reduce the negative impact such protest issue summonses, warrants for arrest and to may have. [12470/04] remand persons in custody or on bail. At present the powers and duties of peace Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform commissioners consist primarily of taking (Mr. McDowell): I am informed by the Garda statutory declarations, witnessing signatures on authorities that the Garda Sı´ocha´na engaged in 1347 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1348

[Mr. McDowell.] A monitoring committee was recently ongoing liaison with various groups planning established comprising representatives of the protests and-or demonstrations over the May traders of the shopping centre, the property Day bank holiday weekend. management group, the probation and welfare service, my Department, and the Garda to review Citizenship Applications. the operation of the new probation and welfare office at Donaghmede shopping centre and to 232. Mr. Howlin asked the Minister for Justice, report to me on the impact of the presence of the Equality and Law Reform if his Department can office on the area. The local residents’ association expedite a decision in relation to the application was invited to nominate a representative but has for naturalisation by a person (details supplied) not done so to date. The committee met for the in County Wexford who has resided here since first time on 22 March 2004 and elected a 1974; and if he will make a statement on the chairperson. A member of the staff of the matter. [12508/04] probation and welfare service agreed to act as Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform secretary to the committee. The committee met (Mr. McDowell): An application for again on 29 March and 19 April 2004. The first naturalisation from the person referred to by the review of the operation of the office is planned Deputy was received in the citizenship section of to take place after six to 12 months of operation my Department on 9 March 2004. to allow for a settling in period. I intend to take Applications for naturalisation are currently appropriate action, if it transpires that the taking approximately 18 months to process. presence of the office is linked to a significant rise Consequently, it is likely that the application of in criminality in the area. The monitoring the person concerned will be finalised in late committee will not have access to in depth details 2005. As soon as I have reached a decision on the of the cases of offenders attending the office. matter, I will inform both the applicant and the Deputy of the outcome. Asylum Applications. 239. Mr. McGuinness asked the Minister for Probation and Welfare Service. Justice, Equality and Law Reform when an 233. Mr. Ferris asked the Minister for Justice, interview will be arranged for a person (details Equality and Law Reform if the monitoring supplied) who is ten months in a hostel; and if he committee for the Donaghmede probation centre will expedite this application. [12576/04] will be provided with in depth details of a client’s Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform case. [12510/04] (Mr. McDowell): I wish to inform the Deputy 234. Mr. Ferris asked the Minister for Justice, that it is not the practice to comment on Equality and Law Reform who will appoint the individual applications for asylum. chairperson of the monitoring committee for the As the Deputy will be aware, under the Donaghmede probation centre. [12513/04] Refugee Act 1996, two independent statutory offices were established to consider applications 235. Mr. Ferris asked the Minister for Justice, and or appeals for refugee status and to make Equality and Law Reform to whom the recommendations to the Minister for Justice, monitoring committee for the Donaghmede Equality and Law Reform on whether such status probation centre will report. [12514/04] should be granted. 236. Mr. Ferris asked the Minister for Justice, These two offices are the Office of the Refugee Equality and Law Reform who will convene Applications Commissioner, which considers meetings of the Donaghmede probation centre applications for a declaration as a refugee at first monitoring committee; who will draw up the instance and the Refugee Appeals Tribunal agenda; and who will take the minutes of which considers applications for a declaration at meetings and ensure that there is a follow up. appeal stage. I understand that the applicant in [12515/04] question will be scheduled for interview in the near future. 237. Mr. Ferris asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if the monitoring Property Acquisitions. committee will have the power to close the Donaghmede probation centre in the event of a 240. Mr. Noonan asked the Minister for Justice, significant increase in crime in the area. Equality and Law Reform if his Department has [12516/04] had discussions or negotiations which might lead to the acquisition of a property (details supplied) 238. Mr. Ferris asked the Minister for Justice, by purchase or leasehold; and if he will make a Equality and Law Reform the terms of reference statement on the matter. [12607/04] for the monitoring committee overseeing the Donaghmede probation centre. [12517/04] Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. McDowell): There are no plans to purchase Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the facility referred to by the Deputy. The (Mr. McDowell): I propose to take Questions Reception and Integration Agency, on behalf of Nos. 233 to 238, inclusive, together. the Department of Social and Family Affairs, has 1349 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1350 entered into a short-term service level agreement manner to ensure that the programme can meet with a contractor for the provision of full board its financial commitments at all times. accommodation and ancillary services at the I would advise the Deputy that there has been premises for short stay purposes, if required. considerable demand from community based groups for capital grant assistance under the Sentencing Policy. programme and every county has benefited from 241. Mr. Wall asked the Minister for Justice, significant grant commitments to provide new Equality and Law Reform the length of sentence and enhanced community based childcare of a person (details supplied); if this persons facilities. ADM on behalf of my Department is sentence has been reduced; and if he will make a currently carrying out an extensive review of the statement on the matter. [12623/04] programme’s capital commitments to date to ensure that those grant commitments previously Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform entered into will in fact be realised by the groups (Mr. McDowell): As I indicated previously to the on the ground. The Deputy will appreciate that Deputy, in reply to Question No. 462 of 23 March over 1,100 capital grants have been allocated 2004, the person referred to is serving a already totalling over \114 million. Many of these cumulative sentence of 18 months for the projects are either awaiting planning permission unauthorised taking of an MPV, criminal damage, no insurance, assault and trespass. The or the completion of tender processes before sentence was reduced from two years, by the reasonable assurance can be taken that they will court, on appeal on 27 February 2004. The proceed. In the event that a project does not prisoner is currently scheduled for release, with proceed, the funding can be decommitted and standard remission, on 11 March 2005. made available to another project. The Department has recently reviewed the Child Care Services. different budget lines under the EOCP in general and the capital programme in particular to ensure 242. Mr. Ring asked the Minister for Justice, that the most effective use is made of all Equality and Law Reform when grants will be remaining funding including the capital measure announced for child care and cre`che facilities. in accordance with the objectives of the [12624/04] programme. This will involve some transfers Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform between measures and the approval of the (Mr. McDowell): When the equal opportunities regional assemblies is needed. I expect that this childcare programme 2000-2006 was initially technical process will be completed shortly and launched, it was envisaged that grant applications that it will bring to about \157 million the total would be announced on a quarterly basis, to tie allocation for the capital development of in with the anticipated timeframe to process the childcare under the present equal opportunities project applications. However, practice revealed childcare programme. This amount includes an that some applications required extensive element for the administration by ADM Limited consultation before a recommendation could be of the capital programme. made while others were complete in their At the same time, an extensive review of information and could be processed more childcare provision on the ground has taken place quickly. to identify obvious service gaps, the filling of As a result, the programme appraisal which will be a priority using the remaining committee, chaired by my Department, agreed to capital funding which currently amounts to about hold more frequent meetings to ensure that \35 million. The careful analysis of this projects would have a timely decision to enable information is essential if the best use is to be them to proceed at the earliest possible date. made of the significant capital funding being Consequently, the programme appraisal provided by the Government to support the committee has met almost monthly since the childcare needs of parents who may be in programme commenced. Following the employment, education or training. deliberations of the programme appraisal committee, I make decisions and ADM Limited The Deputy will appreciate that all counties enters into a final stage of consultation with the have benefited from new projects and additional project promoter with a view to concluding a childcare places under the programme. I intend formal contract. to use the remaining capital funding under this The equal opportunities childcare programme strand of child care development to address the 2000-2006 is a seven year development most immediate service gaps. As a result, all the programme. The progress of the programme was projects in the pipeline will be reviewed to ensure commented upon very favourably by the mid- that those projects which best meet the term evaluators of both the regional operational programme criteria and which can be completed programmes and the National Development Plan by the end of the present programme will receive 2000-2006. Expenditure under the programme priority. The ability to bring a project to fruition must take place in a planned manner and covers before the end of the present programme is an the period to end 2007. Accordingly, grant important criterion at this stage as I am aware approvals must take place in a carefully planned that it can frequently take time to complete a 1351 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1352

[Mr. McDowell.] city was chosen as the location from which to project and there are constraints to ensure that operate the pilot drug court. we maximise our EU funding. The pilot drug court programme marked a I do not doubt but that the success of the major policy initiative in the criminal justice present strand of the EOCP and the need to system and was designed as an alternative continue to make child care available to support measure for dealing with less serious and non- the child care needs of our still growing work violent drug offenders. The project was evaluated force will support my case for ongoing capital and by expert consultants at the end of the 18-month current funding from Government for this key period in July 2002. They recommended that the sector. Indeed should any additional funding pilot project be extended and the catchment area become available before the end of the present be widened to include the Dublin 7 area and for national development plan, I would expect that the period of the extended pilot project to focus the programme would again benefit from on the research and development activity transfers. necessary to roll-out the drug court more widely, while continuing and expanding the current pilot Registration of Title. to further test and refine the emerging model and 243. Mr. Ring asked the Minister for Justice, to address difficulties which had been identified. Equality and Law Reform when maps will be I welcomed the recommendations contained in issued to a person (details supplied) in County the report and supported the extension of the Mayo. [12626/04] drug court to the full Dublin 7 catchment area. This will allow time for further consideration, in Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform consultation with the relevant Departments and (Mr. McDowell): I am informed by the Registrar agencies, of how the drug court concept should of Titles that these are two applications for a copy be further developed and resourced. folio and special features map which were both lodged on 30 October 2003. Application numbers Citizenship Applications. C2003SM005276U and C2003SM005275T refer. 246. Mr. Gregory asked the Minister for I can inform the Deputy that application Justice, Equality and Law Reform when a number C2003SM005276U was completed on 27 response will be made to an application by a April 2004 and that application number person (details supplied) for citizenship. C2003SM005275T was completed on 29 April [12629/04] 2004. Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform Citizenship Applications. (Mr. McDowell): An application for 244. Mr. O’Dowd asked the Minister for naturalisation from the person referred to by the Justice, Equality and Law Reform if a passport Deputy was received in the citizenship section of will be issued in respect of a person (details my Department on 4 July 2002. supplied) in County Mayo. [12627/04] The application is currently being processed and I will inform both the applicant and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform Deputy once a decision has been reached. (Mr. McDowell): An application for naturalisation from the person referred to by the Garda Stations. Deputy was received in the citizenship section of 247. Dr. Upton asked the Minister for Justice, my Department on 22 May 2003. Equality and Law Reform his plans to relocate a Applications for naturalisation are currently Garda station (details supplied) in Dublin 12 taking approximately 18 months to process. from its current location. [12697/04] Consequently, it is likely that the application of the person concerned will be finalised in late Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform 2004. As soon as I have reached a decision on the (Mr. McDowell): I understand from the Garda application for naturalisation, I will inform both authorities that there are no plans to relocate the the applicant and the Deputy of the outcome. station referred to by the Deputy.

Drug Courts. Citizenship Applications. 245. Mr. R. Bruton asked the Minister for 248. Mr. Carey asked the Minister for Justice, Justice, Equality and Law Reform his plans to Equality and Law Reform if, in view of the extend the drug courts model based in Dublin city additional information supplied by a person centre to other suburbs of Dublin and other parts (details supplied) in Dublin 11, their application of the country; and if he will make a statement for naturalisation will be reconsidered; and if he on the matter. [12628/04] will make a statement on the matter. [12748/04] Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. McDowell): The pilot drug court (Mr. McDowell): An application for a certificate programme was launched in the Dublin District of naturalisation was received from the person Court on 9 January 2001 and the first sitting took referred to by the Deputy on 1 November 2002. place on 16 January 2001. Dublin’s north inner I considered this application on 5 March 2004 and 1353 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1354 decided not to grant the application. That involved, did not recommend any increase in decision was based on information available to pension for the groups involved. Having regard me at that time. to the report of the commission, I have no plans The applicant was informed of my decision in to make any changes in respect of the writing on 25 March 2004. A copy of the pensionability of the Garda allowances. submission that was prepared by my officials, It should be noted that the concession sought with my decision noted thereon, was released to in relation to the Garda allowances could not be the applicant. If that decision was based on confined to the Garda and there would be incorrect information, I will certainly re-examine considerable additional costs with regard to the matter. However, nothing in the allowances in other areas of the public sector, documentation supplied with the Deputy’s notably the Defence Forces, teachers and prison question suggests that my decision was based on officers. A concession in these areas could impose incorrect information. Consequently, my decision a very significant cost on the State — in excess of still stands. approximately \12 million a year and an accrued liability of about \152 million, based on 1997 Garda Pensions. costs for Garda and Defence Forces pensioners 249. Mr. Neville asked the Minister for Justice, outlined in the final report of the Commission on Equality and Law Reform the position regarding Public Service Pensions when considering the his examination of the inadequate pension of issue of extending pensionability. ´ ´ I do not agree that an annual pension in excess members of An Garda Sıochana who retired \ before 1 January 2003; and his plans to address of 19,000 — the current annual basic pension of this inequality. [12749/04] a retired member of Garda rank with full service, could be regarded as being inadequate. Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. McDowell): The background to this case is Water and Sewerage Schemes. that a 1983 arbitration finding, recommended that certain Garda allowances should be made 250. Ms M. Wallace asked the Minister for the pensionable with effect from 1 October 1982. The Environment, Heritage and Local Government finding was applied only to personnel who retired about the proposed extension of the waste water on or after that date. The pensionability of the treatment plant at Drogheda; and the proposed Garda unsocial hours allowance was treated in a timeframe for proceeding to tender, the signing similar way when it was introduced. It was of a contract and the construction of works. applied, with effect from 1 January 1994, to [12451/04] personnel who retired or died in service on or Minister for the Environment, Heritage and after 1 January 1993. The position was consistent Local Government (Mr. Cullen): The Drogheda with that in other areas of the public service waste water treatment plant extension is included where in the context of making allowances in my Department’s water services investment pensionable, the benefits were confined to those programme 2003-2005 as a scheme to commence retiring after a specified date and did not extend construction this year. to pensioners who retired before that date. Louth County Council’s design review report, In September 2001, the Government decided water pricing report and contract documents for to accept the thrust of the package of reforms the scheme are being examined by my recommended by the Commission on Public Department. They will be dealt with as quickly as Service Pensions and to establish a working group possible. When the contract documents have to advise on implementation as provided for in been approved the council may invite tenders for the programme for prosperity and fairness. the work in accordance with public procurement Parallel structures with the same remit were procedures. The appointment of a contractor and established in the case of An Garda Sı´ocha´na and commencement of work will depend on the the Defence Forces. The operational details of satisfactory completion of the tender process. the implementation of the commission recommendations are being agreed by 251. Mr. J. O’Keeffe asked the Minister for the Government following receipt of a report from Environment, Heritage and Local Government if the implementation working group and a report the report of the Innishannon water scheme from the Garda Sı´ocha´na pensions parallel (details supplied) submitted by the county council working group. in November 2002 has been considered and The position on the issue of parity of pensions approved; if it can get under way; and the for members of An Garda Sı´ocha´na who retired commencement date. [12465/04] prior to 1993, who do not receive the unsocial hours element in their pensions, and those who Minister for the Environment, Heritage and retired prior to 1982, who do not receive the rent Local Government (Mr. Cullen): The scheme was allowance element in their pensions, is that the approved for funding in my Department’s water commission examined the specific issue of the services investment programme 2003-2005 under pensionability of allowances for members of An the rural towns and villages initiative. Garda Sı´ocha´na and others, as part of its Earlier this month Cork County Council deliberations, but having assessed the arguments submitted a revised preliminary report and 1355 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1356

[Mr. Cullen.] Development Control Advice and supporting documentation to my Department. It Guidelines (currently under review) will be dealt as quickly as possible. Tree Preservation Road Network. Telecommunications Antennae and Support Structures 252. Mr. S. Power asked the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government Wind Farms (currently under review) the moneys provided by his Department for the Residential Density realignment of the Greenhills Road, Tallaght; and when the moneys issued. [12468/04] Housing Supply (Part V of the Planning and Development Act 2000), with additional Minister for the Environment, Heritage and guidance on implementation issues Local Government (Mr. Cullen): Details of grant payments for each of the years 2000 to 2003, Retail Planning Guidelines (retail inclusive, and the 2004 grant allocation by my warehousing cap element of guidelines Department to South Dublin County Council, in currently under review) respect of the realignment of the Greenhills Child Care Facilities Road, are as follows: Architectural Heritage Protection, with additional guidelines relating to places of Year Payment public worship \ Environmental Impact Assessment of sub- 2000 21,586 threshold development 2001 90,968 Control of Quarries 2002 124,048 Issues on which Draft Planning Guidelines 2003 2,000,000 Have Been Issued 2004 1,500,000 (allocation) Landscape and Landscape Assessment Development Plans Property Acquisitions. Sustainable Rural Housing. 253. Mr. Noonan asked the Minister for the Electoral Review. Environment, Heritage and Local Government if his Department has had discussions or 255. Mr. Perry asked the Minister for the negotiations that might lead to the acquisition of Environment, Heritage and Local Government a property (details supplied) by purchase or his views on whether the findings of the leasehold. [12608/04] Constituency Review Commission on the division of Leitrim will have major socio-economic Minister for the Environment, Heritage and consequences for the county in coming years. Local Government (Mr. Cullen): My Department [12644/04] has had no discussions or negotiations about the acquisition of the property concerned. 256. Mr. Perry asked the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government if Environmental Pollution. he proposes to reinstate or reconstitute the CRC and request it to revisit the Leitrim problem with 254. Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for the a view to putting forward alternatives in view of Environment, Heritage and Local Government if the Save Leitrim Campaign; and his views on the he or his Department has guidelines for the matter as the commission has no more sittings. prevention of potential pollution by applications [12645/04] for planning permission for landfill sites or other specific developments. [12638/04] 257. Mr. Perry asked the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government if Minister for the Environment, Heritage and he proposes to explore an alternative in view of Local Government (Mr. Cullen): It is open to a the fact that the CRC did not adhere to the term planning authority or An Bord Pleana´la to refuse of reference that dealt with the division of a planning permission for landfill facilities on county; and the reason Leitrim’s case was not environmental pollution grounds. When taken into account when drafting the terms of permission is granted matters on environmental reference. [12646/04] pollution fall to be dealt with in the context of the determination by the Environmental Protection 258. Mr. Perry asked the Minister for the Agency of the related application for a waste Environment, Heritage and Local Government licence. The agency is precluded from granting his views on whether Leitrim is in a unique such a licence unless it is satisfied that a facility situation due to its small population and the will not cause environmental pollution. CRC’s view of it. [12647/04] My Department issues planning guidelines on 259. Mr. Perry asked the Minister for the a range of issues. They are as follows: Environment, Heritage and Local Government if, in view of the limited options available to the Issues on which Planning Guidelines Have CRC, he proposes to alter the findings before Been Issued 1357 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1358 bringing them before Da´il E´ ireann for the Deputy is referring to e-voters or electronic ratification. [12648/04] voters. This refers to EU citizens who are entitled to vote in local and European elections. 260. Mr. Perry asked the Minister for the All EU citizens, who are registered in Environment, Heritage and Local Government if accordance with electoral law, are entitled to vote his attention was drawn to the fact that the at the European and local elections on 11 June. proposed division of Leitrim will result in the A number of measures have been undertaken to Dromahaire electoral area being divided, one ensure that they are aware of their rights. My part in Sligo-Leitrim and the other in Department distributed a form to be used by Roscommon-Leitrim; his views on whether this is registration authorities when compiling the 2004- unfair to the people of Leitrim and whether they 2005 register of electors. It contained information have a constitutional right to remain in one for non-nationals, including EU citizens, on their constituency. [12649/04] eligibility to vote and to stand at the 2004 261. Mr. Perry asked the Minister for the European and local elections. An information Environment, Heritage and Local Government if leaflet was distributed to the embassies of the 25 he can provide evidence from the division of the EU member states, the European Parliament county pre-1981 to indicate that the consequence office and other interested bodies. It is also of the division had a demoralising effect on the available on my Department’s website. people of Leitrim. [12650/04] In addition, a newspaper advertising campaign is under way to promote the availability of the 262. Mr. Perry asked the Minister for the supplement to the register for persons who are Environment, Heritage and Local Government if not on the published register. The advertisements he proposes to set up an independent task force make specific reference to EU citizens. to explore the consequences of the proposed division of Leitrim in view of the limited time and Property Acquisition. terms of reference available to the CRC. [12651/04] 266. Mr. Noonan asked the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs if his 263. Mr. Perry asked the Minister for the Department had discussions or negotiations that Environment, Heritage and Local Government might lead to the acquisition of a property the district electoral areas in the State divided (details supplied) by purchase or leasehold. into two constituencies as a result of the CRC. [12609/04] [12652/04] Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Affairs (E´ amon O´ Cuı´v): My Department has not Local Government (Mr. Cullen): I propose to had any discussions or negotiations that might take Questions Nos. 255 to 263, inclusive, lead to the acquisition, either by purchase or together. leasehold, of the property. It would be inappropriate for me to comment on any of the recommendations of the independent Community Development. CRC on Da´il constituencies before its report is 267. Mr. Stanton asked the Minister for considered by the Government and the Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, further Oireachtas in the context of the necessary to Parliamentary Question No. 172 of 27 April, legislation. the 132 schools that will receive funding under the CLA´ R primary school outdoor play facilities Voting Rights. enhancement scheme; and the amount allocated 264. Dr. Upton asked the Minister for the to each school. [12745/04] Environment, Heritage and Local Government if Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht he will consider requests to allow British citizens Affairs (E´ amon O´ Cuı´v): Details of the schools to vote in a presidential election and a referred to by the Deputy were posted on my referendum, especially as many of them have Department’s website on 1 April. The resided here for years. [12695/04] information may be accessed on Minister for the Environment, Heritage and www.pobail.ie/en/pressreleases Local Government (Mr. Cullen): Eligibility to vote at a presidential election and a referendum Pension Provisions. is confined by the Constitution to Irish citizens 268. Ms M. Wallace asked the Minister for only. A change would require a referendum to Social and Family Affairs the way the sale of amend the Constitution. residence disregard regulation within the social 265. Dr. Upton asked the Minister for the welfare old age and blind pensions regulation Environment, Heritage and Local Government 1991 be applied in the case of a person who sold his view on the large number of A voters on the their house before 1991 in order to move to 2004 to 2005 electoral register; and his view on smaller accommodation and, as a result, lost their whether these EU citizens will be denied a vote pension. [12579/04] in the European elections 2004. [12696/04] Minister for Social and Family Affairs (Mary Coughlan): Under the sale of residence Minister for the Environment, Heritage and provisions a person may sell his or her home and Local Government (Mr. Cullen): I assume that buy or rent more suitable accommodation 1359 Questions— 4 May 2004. Written Answers 1360

[Mary Coughlan.] 270. Mr. McGuinness asked the Minister for without the sale proceeds affecting his or her Social and Family Affairs the reason rent weekly means for social assistance purposes, allowance was not granted in the case of a person subject to specified limits. These provisions also (details supplied) in County Kilkenny; and if an apply in certain other instances. For example, appeal can be expedited. [12584/04] where a person moves into a private nursing home or moves in with a person who is getting a Minister for Social and Family Affairs (Mary carer’s payment for looking after them. Coughlan): The South Eastern Health Board was contacted about the case. It advised that the In all cases the balance of the sale proceeds of person concerned was refused a rent supplement the principal private residence is disregarded in accordance with the legislation that provides when assessing the weekly means of a claimant that asylum seekers and persons who are not for certain non-contributory payments from my lawfully in the State are not entitled to the Department. The current maximum level of \ supplement. disregard is 190,460.71. The person concerned is an asylum seeker who The special provision was enacted in the Social is currently accommodated in a direct provision Welfare Act 1990 and in Regulations made in centre operated by the Reception and 1991 and subsequently. Without further details of Integration Agency. the case I cannot state how a sale of residence The person concerned lodged an appeal with made before 1991 would be treated for old age the health board appeals officer and my pension scheme means assessment purposes. If Department’s chief appeals officer. On both the Deputy supplies details of cases to my occasions the decision to refuse payment was Department the matter will be examined. upheld.

Social Welfare Benefits. Property Acquisition. 269. Mr. Allen asked the Minister for Social 271. Mr. Noonan asked the Minister for Social and Family Affairs if she proposes to amend the and Family Affairs if her Department had rules of behaviour for persons in receipt of discussions or negotiations that might lead to the disability allowance under the rehabilitative care acquisition of a property (details supplied) by work scheme that will adjust \240 as the limit in purchase or leasehold. [12610/04] order the keep the original integrity of the Minister for Social and Family Affairs (Mary scheme for the small numbers involved. Coughlan): The Office of Public Works is [12581/04] responsible for all matters that relate to property acquisition on behalf of my Department. Minister for Social and Family Affairs (Mary Coughlan): My Department operates a range of Social Welfare Benefits. employment support measures for people on 272. Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for Social disability payments in order to encourage and and Family Affairs the reason rent supplement facilitate them to take up available work and was reduced in the case of a person (details training opportunities. One of these measures is supplied) in County Kildare; if account will be the rehabilitative earnings disregard that applies taken of the current rent of \650 per month of in the case of the disability allowance and blind which \470.00 must be paid by the person who is person’s pension schemes. Under the measure finding it increasingly difficult to do so. people on means tested disability payments can [12621/04] earn up to \120 a week without it affecting their Minister for Social and Family Affairs (Mary entitlement to payment and provided the work Coughlan): Rent supplement is subject to a involved is rehabilitative in nature. means test. Therefore, any change in the level of The rehabilitative earnings disregard was household income may affect the amount introduced to enable people with disabilities, who payable. were engaged in sheltered work, to receive a The South Western Area Health Board was small top-up payment without it affecting their contacted about the case. It advised that the rent entitlement to a disability payment. supplement paid up to February was based on In 1996 my Department took responsibility for household income that comprised of disability the disability allowance scheme. Since then the benefit and maintenance payments. Recently the level of disregard has been substantially person concerned was awarded the one-parent increased. Many more people with disabilities can family payment. Accordingly, her rent benefit from the measure such as those engaged supplement was reviewed to take account of the in employment in the open labour market and increase in household income. She now receives participants on community employment schemes. the one-parent family payment, half personal rate The question of further increases in the disability benefit and maintenance payments. earnings disregard for rehabilitative employment The person concerned is in receipt of the would have financial implications and would have maximum amount of rent supplement payable to be considered in a budgetary context. having regard to her circumstances.