Volume II Monday No. 33 6th December, 1965

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

DEWAN RA'AYAT

(HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES)

OFFICIAL REPORT

SECOND SESSION OF THE SECOND PARLIAMENT OF MALAYSIA

CONTENTS BILL: The Supply BUI, 1966— Committee of Supply (Eighth Allotted Day)— Heads S. 23 to S. 30 [Col. 4809] Head S. 32 [Col. 4854]

DI-CHETAK DWABATAN CHETAK KERAJAAN OLEH THOR BENG CHONG, A.M.N., PENCHETAK KERAJAAN, KUALA LUMPUR 1967 MALAYSIA DEWAN RA'AYAT (HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES) Official Report

Second Session of the Second Dewan Ra'ayat

Monday, 6th December, 1965 The House met at Ten o'clock a.m.

PRESENT: The Honourable Mr Speaker, DATO' CHIK MOHAMED YUSUF BIN SHEIKH ABDUL RAHMAN, S.P.M.P., J.P., Dato' Bendahara, Perak. the Minister of Home Affairs and Minister of Justice, DATO' DR ISMAIL BIN DATO' HAJI ABDUL RAHMAN, P.M.N. (Johor Timor). the Minister of Finance, ENCHE' TAN SIEW SIN, J.P. (Melaka Tengah). the Minister of Transport, DATO' HAJI SARDON BIN HAJI JUBIR, P.M.N. (Pontian Utara). the Minister of Health, ENCHE' BAHAMAN BIN SAMSUDIN (Kuala Pilah). the Minister of Commerce and Industry, DR LIM SWEE AUN, J.P. (Larut Selatan). the Minister for Local Government and Housing, ENCHE' KHAW KAI-BOH, PJ.K. (Ulu Selangor). the Minister of Labour, ENCHE' V. MANICKAVASAGAM, J.M.N., PJ.K. (Klang). the Minister of Information and Broadcasting, ENCHE' SENU BIN ABDUL RAHMAN (Kubang Pasu Barat). the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives, TUAN HAJI MOHAMED GHAZALI BIN HAJI JAWI (Ulu Perak). the Minister of Lands and Mines, ENCHE' ABDUL-RAHMAN BIN YA'KUB (Sarawak). the Assistant Minister of Education, ENCHE' LEE SIOK YEW, A.M.N., PJ.K. (Sepang). the Assistant Minister of Finance, DR NG KAM POH, J.P. (Telok Anson). the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Health, ENCHE' IBRAHIM BIN ABDUL RAHMAN (Seberang Tengah). the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Labour, ENCHE' LEE SAN CHOON, K.M.N. (Segamat Selatan). the Parliamentary Secretary to the Deputy Prime Minister, ENCHE' CHEN WING SUM (Damansara). ENCHE' ABDUL GHANI BIN ISHAK, A.M.N. (Melaka Utara). ENCHE' ABDUL KARIM BIN ABU, A.M.N. (Melaka Selatan). 4803 6 DECEMBER 1965 4804

The Honourable WAN ABDUL RAHMAN BIN DATU TUANKU BUJANG (Sarawak). TUAN HAJI ABDUL RASHID BIN HAJI JAIS (Sabah). ENCHE' ABDUL RAZAK BIN HAJI HUSSIN (Lipis). TUAN HAJI ABDULLAH BIN HAJI MOHD. SALLEH, A.M.N., S.MJ., P.I.S. (Segamat Utara). TUAN HAJI AHMAD BIN ABDULLAH (Kelantan Hilir). ENCHE' AHMAD BIN ARSHAD, A.M.N. (Muar Utara). TUAN HAJI AHMAD BIN SAAID, J.P. (Seberang Utara). CHE' AJIBAH BINTI ABOL (Sarawak). ENCHE' AZIZ BIN ISHAK (Muar Dalam). PENGARAH BANYANG ANAK JANTING, P.B.S. (Sarawak). ENCHE' CHAN SIANG SUN (Bentong). ENCHE' CHIN FOON (Ulu Kinta). ENCHE' D. A. DAGO ANAK RANDAN alias DAGOK ANAK RANDEN (Sarawak). ENCHE' C. V. DEVAN NAIR (Bungsar). ENCHE' EDWIN ANAK TANGKUN (Sarawak). TUAN SYED ESA BIN ALWEE, J.M.N., S.MJ., P.I.S. (Batu Pahat Dalam). DATIN HAJJAH FATIMAH BINTI HAJI ABDUL MAJID (Johor Bahru Timor). DATIN FATIMAH BINTI HAJI HASHIM, P.M.N. (Jitra-Padang Terap). ENCHE' S. FAZUL RAHMAN, A.D.K. (Sabah). ENCHE' GANING BIN JANGKAT (Sabah). ENCHE' GEH CHONG KEAT, K.M.N. (Penang Utara). TUAN HAJI HAMZAH BIN ALANG, A.M.N., P.J.K. (Kapar). ENCHE' HANAFI BIN MOHD. YUNUS, A.M.N., J.P. (Kulim Utara). ENCHE' HANAFIAH BIN HUSSAIN, A.M.N. (Jerai). ENCHE' HARUN BIN ABDULLAH, A.M.N. (Baling). WAN HASSAN BIN WAN DAUD (Tumpat). ENCHE' HUSSEIN BIN TO' MUDA HASSAN, A.M.N. (Raub). DATO' HAJI HUSSEIN BIN MOHD. NOORDIN, D.P.M.P., A.M.N., PJ.K. (Parit). ENCHE' HUSSEIN BIN SULAIMAN (Ulu Kelantan). TUAN HAJI HUSSAIN RAHIMI BIN HAJI SAMAN (Kota Bharu Hulu). ENCHE' IKHWAN ZAINI (Sarawak). ENCHE' ISMAIL BIN IDRIS (Penang Selatan). DATO' SYED JA'AFAR BIN HASAN ALBAR, P.M.N. (Johor Tenggara). PENGHULU JINGGUT ANAK ATTAN, Q.M.C, A.B.S. (Sarawak). ENCHE' KADAM ANAK KIAI (Sarawak). ENCHE' KAM WOON WAH, J.P. (Sitiawan). ENCHE' LEE SECK FUN (Tanjong Malim). ENCHE' AMADEUS MATHEW LEONG, A.D.K., J.P. (Sabah). DR LIM CHONG EU (Tanjong). 4805 6 DECEMBER 1965 4806

The Honourable DR MAHATHIR BIN MOHAMAD (Kota Star Selatan). ENCHE' T. MAHIMA SINGH, J.P. (Port Dickson). DATO' DR HAJI MEGAT KHAS, D.P.M.P., J.P., PJ.K. (Kuala Kangsar). ENCHE' MOHD. ARIF SALLEH, A.D.K. (Sabah). ENCHE' MOHD. DAUD BIN ABDUL SAMAD (Besut). ENCHE' MOHAMED IDRIS BIN MATSIL, J.M.N., PJ.K., J.P. (Jelebu-Jempol). ENCHE' MOHD. TAHIR BIN ABDUL MAJID, S.M.S., PJ.K. (Kuala Langat). ENCHE' MOHAMED YUSOF BIN MAHMUD, A.M.N. (Temerloh). ENCHE' MOHD. ZAHIR BIN HAJI ISMAIL, J.M.N. (Sungai Patani). WAN MOKHTAR BIN AHMAD (Kemaman). TUAN HAJI MOKTHAR BIN HAJI ISMAIL (Perlis Selatan). DATO' HAJI MUSTAPHA BIN HAJI ABDUL JABAR, D.P.M.S., A.M.N., J.P. (Sabak Bernam). ENCHE' MUSTAPHA BIN AHMAD (Tanah Merah). ENCHE' NG FAH YAM (Batu Gajah). ENCHE' ONG KEE HUI (Sarawak). TUAN HAJI OTHMAN BIN ABDULLAH (Hilir Perak). ABANG OTHMAN BIN HAJI MOASILI, P.B.S. (Sarawak). TUAN HAJI RAHMAT BIN HAJI DAUD, A.M.N. (Johor Bahru Barat) ENCHE' RAMLI BIN OMAR (Krian Darat). TUAN HAJI REDZA BIN HAJI MOHD. SAID, PJ.K., J.P. (Rembau-Tampin). RAJA ROME BIN RAJA MA'AMOR, PJ.K., J.P. (Kuala Selangor). ENCHE' SANDOM ANAK NYUAK (Sarawak). ENCHE' SEAH TENG NGIAB, P.I.S. (Muar Pantai). ENCHE' SIM BOON LIANG (Sarawak). ENCHE' SENAWI BIN ISMAIL, PJ.K. (Seberang Selatan). ENCHE' SOH AH TECK (Batu Pahat). ENCHE' SULEIMAN BIN ALI (Dungun). PENGIRAN TAHIR PETRA (Sabah). ENCHE' TAJUDIN BIN ALI, PJ.K. (Larut Utara). ENCHE' TAI KUAN YANG (Kulim Bandar Bharu). ENCHE' TAMA WENG TINGGANG WAN (Sarawak). DR TAN CHEE KHOON (Batu). ENCHE' TAN CHENG BEE, J.P. (Bagan). ENCHE' TAN TOH HONG (Bukit Bintang). ENCHE' TAN TSAK YU (Sarawak). ENCHE' TIAH ENG BEE (Kluang Utara). PENGHULU FRANCIS UMPAU ANAK EMPAM (Sarawak). ENCHE' YEOH TAT BENG (Bruas). TUAN HAJI ZAKARIA BIN HAJI MOHD. TAIB, PJ.K. (Langat). 4807 6 DECEMBER 1965 4808

ABSENT: The Honourable the Prime Minister, Minister of External Affairs and Minister of Culture, Youth and Sports, Y.T.M. TUNKU ABDUL RAHMAN PUTRA AL-HAJ, K.O.M. (Kuala Kedah). the Deputy Prime Minister, Minister of Defence and Minister of National and Rural Development, TUN HAJI ABDUL RAZAK BIN DATO' HUSSAIN, S.M.N. (Pekan). the Minister of Works, Posts and Telecommunications, DATO' V. T. SAMBANTHAN, P.M.N. (Sungei Siput). the Minister of Education, ENCHE' MOHAMED KHIR JOHARI (Kedah Tengah). the Minister for Welfare Services, TUAN HAJI ABDUL HAMID KHAN BIN HAJI SAKHAWAT ALI KHAN, J.M.N., J.P. (Batang Padang). the Minister for Sarawak Affairs, DATO' TEMENGGONG JUGAH ANAK BARIENG, P.M.N., P.D.K. (Sarawak). the Assistant Minister without Portfolio, TUAN HAJI ABDUL KHALID BIN AWANG OSMAN (Kota Star Utara). the Assistant Minister of National and Rural Development, ENCHE' SULAIMAN BIN BULON (Bagan Datoh). the Assistant Minister of Culture, Youth and Sports, ENGKU MUHSEIN BIN ABDUL KADIR, J.M.N., S.M.T., P.J.K. (Trengganu Tengah). the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance, ENCHE' ALI BIN HAJI AHMAD (Pontian Selatan). WAN ABDUL KADIR BIN ISMAIL, P.P.T. (Kuala Trengganu Utara). ENCHE' ABDUL RAHMAN BIN HAJI TALIB, P.J.K. (Kuantan). ENCHE' ABDUL RAUF BIN A. RAHMAN, K.M.N., P.J.K. (Krian Laut). ENCHE' ABDUL SAMAD BIN GUL AHMAD MIANJI (Pasir Mas Hulu). DATO' ABDULLAH BIN ABDULRAHMAN, Dato' Bijaya di-Raja (Kuala Trengganu Selatan). Y.A.M. TUNKU ABDULLAH IBNI AL-MARHUM TUANKU ABDUL RAHMAN, P.P.T. (Rawang). ENCHE' ABU BAKAR BIN HAMZAH (Bachok). O.K.K. DATU ALIUDDIN BIN DATU HARUN, P.D.K. (Sabah). DR AWANG BIN HASSAN, S.M.J. (Muar Selatan). ENCHE' JONATHAN BANGAU ANAK RENANG, A.B.S. (Sarawak). ENCHE' CHAN CHONG WEN, A.M.N. (Kluang Selatan). ENCHE' CHAN SEONG YOON (Setapak). ENCHE' CHIA CHIN SHIN, A.B.S. (Sarawak). ENCHE' FRANCIS CHIA NYUK TONG (Sabah). DATU GANIE GILONG, P.D.K., J.P. (Sabah). ENCHE' STANLEY HO NGUN KHIU, A.D.K. (Sabah). ENCHE' THOMAS KANA (Sarawak). ENCHE' KHOO PENG LOONG (Sarawak). DATU KHOO SIAK CHIEW, P.D.K. (Sabah). ENCHE' EDMUND LANGGU ANAK SAGA (Sarawak). DATO' LING BENG SIEW, P.N.B.S. (Sarawak). 4809 6 DECEMBER 1965 4810 The Honourable ENCHE' LIM KEAN Srnw (Dato Kramat). ENCHE' LIM PEE HUNG, PJ.K. (Alor Star). ENCHE' PETER Lo Su YIN (Sabah). ENCHE' JOSEPH DAVID MANJAJI (Sabah). DATO' MOHAMED AsRI BIN HAJI MUDA, P.M.K. (Pasir Puteh). ORANG TUA MOHAMMAD DARA BIN LANGPAD (Sabah). ENCHE' MUHAMMAD FAKHRUDDIN BIN HAJJ ABDULLAH (Pasir Mas Hilir). TUAN HAJ1 MUHAMMAD Su'AUT BIN HAJJ MUHD. TAHIR, A.B.s. (Sarawak). DATO' NIK AHMAD KAMIL, D.K., S.P.M.K., S.J.M.K., P.M.N., P.Y.G.P., Dato' Sri Setia Raja (Kota Bharu Hilir). ENCHE' OTHMAN BIN ABDULLAH, A.M.N. (Perlis Utara). ENCHE' QuEK KAI DoNG, J.P. (Seremban Timor). ENCHE' D. R. SEENIVASAGAM (lpoh). DATO' s. P. SEENIVASAGAM, D.P.M.P., P.M.P., J.P. (Menglembu). ENCHE' Smw LooNG HIN, PJ.K. (Seremban Barat). ENCHE' SNG CHIN Joo (Sarawak). ENCHE' TAN KEE GAK (Bandar Melaka). ENCHE' TOH THEAM HOCK (Kampar). ENCHE' YEH PAO TzE (Sabah). ENCHE' STEPHEN YONG KuET TZE (Sarawak).

PRAYERS move that the following sums be approved: (Mr Speaker in the Chair) Head S. 23 $ 3,789,569 Head S. 24 26.721,250 BILL Head S. 25 63,200,000 Head S. 26 11,387,968 THE SUPPLY BILL, 1966 Head S. 27 3,140,853 Order read for resumed consideration Head S. 28 223,047 in Committee of Supply (Eighth Head S. 29 5,467,886 Allotted Day). Head S. 30 879,445 House accordingly resolved itself into Committee of Supply. $114.810,018 (Mr Speaker in the Chair) Head S. 23-The Treasury- Beginning with Head 23, which ScHEDULE concerns the Treasury proper, it has Heads S. 23 to S. 30- been found necessary to expand the establishment of the various Divisions The Assistant Minister of Finance in the Treasury in order to cope with (Dr Ng Kam Poh): Mr Chairman, Sir, the ever increasing volume of work the various Departmental Estimates and responsibilities of the respective that come within the portfolio of the Divisions. Consequently, a total of 61 Treasury appear under Head S. 23 to new posts of various grades have been Head S. 30 inclusive, and, with your created and hence an increase of permission, I would like to take all $342,500 is required under Personal the Heads together, and I accordingly Emoluments. 4811 6 DECEMBER 1965 4812 Under Other Charges Annually creation of a number of additional Recurrent, the main increases are posts of various grades, notably in under Sub-head 2 for Administration Headquarters. Under Other Charges and Sub-head 14 for the rent on Annually Recurrent, separate provi­ accommodation as a result of the sions totalling $89,068 are also now expansion and increase of staff to deal made for Headquarters as given under with the increased work and responsi­ Sub-heads 2 to 8. Previously, these bilities mentioned earlier. provisions were made under the cover for the States of Malaya. Where Special Expenditure is con­ cerned, a sum of $208,202 has been Similarly, separate provisions amount­ included for the purchase of various ing to $41,055 are also made for types of office machines for Federal Special Expenditure for Headquarters. Departments in Sarawak and Sabah under Sub-head 23. The purchase of The only major increase for the these machines will be undertaken States of Malaya under Special Expen­ centrally by the Organisation and diture is that under Sub-head 28 for Methods Division, Borneo States for the air-conditioning of Customs Head­ the sake of economy and proper quarters for the States of Malaya. control. Head S. 27-Trade and Customs­ Head S. 24-Treasury General Services. Borneo States- As already stated in the Treasury As far as Personal Emoluments is Memorandum on the Estimates of concerned, there is a negligible increase Ordinary Expenditure for 1966, the in the establishment for Sarawak whilst substantial increase under this Head is there is an increase of 5 Assistant due to the provision of a block sum of Superintendents and 8 Customs Officers $3.6 million for Secret Service which in Sabah against the deletion of a few was previously shown under various Customs Officers of other grades. other Heads of Expenditure, such as These require an increase of $28,659 in Police, Customs, Defence and Immigra­ the provision. tion. On the other hand, there are also Under Other Charges Annually a number of substantial decreases, Recurrent, there is no net increase in notably under Sub-heads 1, 3, 5, 7, 8, the provision although a few new Sub­ 10, 13 and 22. The total provision heads have been created in place of under this Head shows a decrease of appropriate items in the Estimates. $23,238 below the 1965 provision. Under Other Charges Special Expen­ Head S. 25-Contributions to Statutory diture, there is an increase of $8,305 Funds- for a few items of special expenditure. Although the overall contributions under this Head show a decrease of Head S. 28-Comptroller-General of $2.5 million, there is an increase of Inland Revenue- $900,000 to Sub-head 2, State Reserve Under this Head there is no net Fund. This is because the balance in increase of posts but the establishment the Fund has been utilised for payment has been reorganised to provide for one of grants to States which have incurred new post of Assistant Comptroller­ deficits in their accounts in past years. General of Inland Revenue at Super­ It will be noted that the contribution scale "F" and two new post of Assist­ to the Development Fund is only $50 ant Comptroller-General at Superscale million, but this sum may need to be "H". The increase of $8,401 in the supplemented later depending on the provision is therefore merely con­ amount of funds that are available in sequential. the Development Fund. Under Other Charges Annually Head S. 26-Royal Customs and Recurrent, the main increase is under Excise- Sub-head 5-Rent, because the office The increase of $550,149 under is now accommodated in a private Personal Emoluments is due to the building for which rent has to be paid. 4813 6 DECEMBER 1965 4814

Head S. 29—Inland Revenue— hingga sekarang ini, sa-telah menchapai Under Personal Emoluments, a kemerdekaan sa-lama lapan tahun, number of additional posts have been maseh lagi Kerajaan menggunakan Crown Agents ini untok membeli created to strengthen the existing staff, 2 in order to cope with the ever in­ barang dan terpaksa-lah Kerajaan creasing work of the Department, membayar "commission" kapada me- mainly due to the recent tax changes. reka, dalam tahun yang lalu sa-banyak Hence an increase of $682,271 in the satu juta ringgit dan pada tahun ini, provision is required to meet a net tahun 1966 ini, pula ada peruntokan increase of 31 posts. sa-banyak $600,000. Saya fikir dengan keadaan kita yang telah menchapai Under Other Charges Annually kemerdekaan yang bagini lama, Recurrent, the main increase is under sayugia-lah bagi pehak Kerajaan, jangan lagi menggunakan Crown Sub-head 7—Printing and Stationery, 2 which requires an additional provision Agents untok membeli barang keper­ luan pehak Kerajaan, kerana kita tiap2 of $40,000. This is necessary because 2 the recent tax changes also require new buah negeri, baharu ini kita telah and additional forms to be printed. mengadakan "Trade Attache" dan New provision is also required for a bukan-lah sa-takat itu sahaja, bahkan di-dalam negeri kita sendiri pun ada number of office machines under Other 2 Charges Special Expenditure. mempunyai agent yang banyak. Lebeh baik-lah pehak Kerajaan membeli Head S. 30—Inland Revenue—Borneo keperluan ini menerusi "Trade Atta­ States— che" kita yang ada di-luar negeri, atau pun melalui agent2 yang ada di-dalam Under Personal Emoluments, there is negeri kita, kerana dengan yang demi- only a net increase of 1 post for kian keuntongan yang sa-banyak Sarawak and 8 posts for Sabah. Hence $1,000,000 pada tahun yang lalu—pada a small increase of $28,264 is required tahun ini dan $600,000 ini akan ter- for these additional posts. pulang kapada warga negara di-dalam negeri ini dan ini akan mengembangkan Under Other Charges, there are no lagi perusahaan dan ekonomi di-dalam items of special significance that need negeri. Saya fikir tidak-lah ada lagi individual mention, and an overall sebab-nya bagi Kerajaan melambat2 increase of about $37,000 under this untok menghapuskan Crown Agents Head represents the normal expansion ini, atau pun memutuskan perhubongan activities of these Departments in the Borneo States. kita dengan Crown Agents ini, kerana saya fikir sa-bagaimana yang saya 2 Sir, I beg to move. terangkan tadi dengan ada-nya agent dan Trade2 Attache di-dalam negeri kita maka mereka itu dapat memenohi Tuan Haji Ahmad bin Abdullah 2 (Kelantan Hilir): Tuan Pengerusi, saya keperluan untok membeli barang hendak berchakap sadikit di-bawah keperluan pehak Kerajaan. Head 24, muka 262, Pechahan-kepala 8, ia-itu Perbelanjaan Crown Agents. Yang kedua, Tuan Pengerusi, di- Tuan Pengerusi, nampak-nya sa-bagai- bawah Sub-head 36, muka 263 ia-itu mana keterangan yang ada di-sebut di- Kerugian kerana Pinjaman wang yang hadapan kita bahawa tahun yang lalu, di-beri oleh Lembaga Pinjaman Pemu- Kerajaan telah membayar sa-bagai lehan Sa-mula Lombong Bijeh Timah "commission" dan perbelanjaan dan Orang2 China. Nampak-nya pada lain2 lagi sa-banyak satu juta ringgit tahun ini, kerugian yang Kerajaan telah kapada Crown Agents untok membeli mengalami ia-lah sa-banyak $70,000— barang2 Kerajaan. Tuan Pengerusi, buat tahun hadapan ia-itu sa-banyak Crown Agents ini ia-lah satu badan $35,000. Ini, kalau kita jumlahkan yang telah di-dirikan oleh pemerentah kedua bilangan ini menjadi $100,000. waktu pemerentah menjajah negeri kita Saya tidak tahu pada tahun 1964 dan untok membeli barang2 bagi keperluan kerugian pada tahun 1963, berapa Kerajaan. Tetapi nampak-nya kita sa- banyak-kah pula yang Kerajaan telah 4815 6 DECEMBER 1965 4816

menanggong kerugian di-dalam masa- Government and to make them feel alah ini. Saya harap apabila Menteri happy and feel that they have to Kewangan menjawab soal2 ini dapat- contribute their share towards the lah menerangkan kapada Rumah yang Government's burden as regards our mulia ini, berapa-kah banyak-nya national security and defence. kerugian Kerajaan telah menanggong di-dalam tahun 1962, 1963 dan 1964 I also appeal to the Minister to issue supaya dapat-lah kita satu gambaran forms in the languages that can be yang terang di-atas gambaran yang easily understood by the taxpayers, so bagitu besar yang Kerajaan sedang as to make them feel happy that they mengalami di-dalam soal ini. Dan saya do not have to depend upon a third chadangkan lagi supaya Kerajaan party to interpret for them; otherwise mengambil tindakan supaya kerugian a little bit of wrong interpretation may ini tidak lagi berlaku pada tahun yang cause them years of corresponding akan datang. Kalau tidak kita tahu between the Inland Revenue Depart­ Kerajaan sekarang ini telah mengalami ment and the taxpayer himself. So, it kekurangan wang dan, oleh sebab yang is a case of convenience and a case of demikian Kerajaan telah mengadakan acknowledging the right of the tax­ "policy austerity" untok menjimat- payer. chermatkan perbelanjaan-nya, maka sangat-lah kena pada tempat-nya, Sir, I would like to touch now on kalau Kerajaan mengambil tindakan the Insurance Division, i.e., Item (48), supaya perkara ini, ia-itu kerugian ini, Insurance Commissioner. Speaking on tidak berlaku lagi di-masa yang akan this subject, I would like to thank the datang. Honourable Minister of Finance and to compliment him for protecting the interests of life insurance policyholders Enche' Geh Chong Keat (Penang of the many insurance companies Utara): Mr Chairman, Sir, I would operating in Malaysia. I would like the like to speak on Head S. 23, Sub-head Honourable Minister, and at the same 1. Speaking on this Sub-head. I would time his Commissioner for Insurance, like to thank the Honourable Minister to study the many schemes offered by of Finance for the prompt action taken the insurance companies, in particular to investigate into the matter raised the non-medical scheme for $5,000 by me during the Budget debate—I and under. I would like to mention refer to the slogan of five little Chinese that this scheme had affected adversely characters, viz. Chye Chee Jen Ping the investments of the lower income Ann. A telephone call was put through group in its intrigues in procedure, instructing the officer there to copy starting from canvassing, filling up those five little Chinese characters. I forms in a language which the insured am sure the Minister has it by now, to cannot understand—nor, at times, confirm what I have spoken in Parlia­ could the agents—and down to the ment drawing attention to the deep, paying out to the beneficiary of the deep meaning of those five little insured who died before the policy characters. could mature.

Mr Chairman, Sir, I fully support Sir, the life insurance companies slogans being put up in Chinese offer a special non-medical scheme in characters, slogans advising the tax­ which the prospective purchaser of a payers how to pay their tax and the policy fills a non-medical application psychological approach—of course, not form, and the time he signs it and to forget the one at the Kuala Lumpur pays a premium, which varies accord­ Income Tax office where the poster ing to the risk which he represents, he showed a big fat towkay with a big is insured without the usual medical sum of money in front of him bargain­ examination by a medical practitioner. ing for $1 or ten cents. Even that Many canvassers are being sent out to poster has been taken down. But the the cities and even to the rural villages intention, as I see it, was to have to sell these policies to the lower liaison between the taxpayers and the income group, and these agents or 4817 6 DECEMBER 1965 4818 representatives are mostly young of the person who insured. When this students who have just left school. person died, here it was described as Now, equipped with their training in "proprietory partner, shipping busi­ sales talk, these people go out to seek ness", and the death certificate issued a living as well as in what they described him as a labourer. Now, the thought was helping the people in the company refused to pay and after villages and the lower income group. haggling the company wrote a letter. The important point, Sir, is that the This is quite usual in many cases and insured signed or imposed his thumb­ this is the only case I am mentioning, print without being asked any question Sir, for the attention of the Insurance and the canvasser or agent filled in Commissioner and the Honourable the necessary requirements some time Minister. When it comes to settlement, later, and even this was done without I quote a letter—"Thank you for your the proper witnessing or interpretation letter dated so-and-so. We regret that of the filling of the forms. When the we are not able to consider an ex gratia insured dies, then the problem of the payment on the above claim. Our beneficiary really begins. He or she liability is only to refund the premium will find that it is not easy at all to of a certain amount as advised in our claim the insured amount. Here I letter dated so-and-so". Now, the would like to mention that the parti­ reasons given being: "We regret to culars of the insured are then re- advise you that we have to reject your checked, even the nature of his occupa­ claim as in the course of our investiga­ tion as described in the application tions we found out that the above- form as compared with the death named was admitted into the General certificate issued must be the same, Hospital, Penang, on two occasions." otherwise payment would be stopped. Then it says that the illness was carcinoma of the liver and then they Mr Chairman, Sir, with your per­ followed up, contesting their case, by mission I would like to illustrate a saying, "Well, we have put the follow­ case. Here I would like to illustrate ing questions to you at that time when the case of an insured who was you filled up the non-medical form described as a business partner when and the following questions, Nos. 26, filling up of his form. When he died, 40 and 46, were answered 'No'." It the informer or the member of the says that the representations made family, reporting to the officer for the death certificate or the burial certi­ were untrue, false and incomplete ficate, gave the report in Chinese and prior to the issuance of the policy of mentioned that man as a "Kang Nang" so-and-so who was, in fact, suffering in Hokkien, which means also a from a disease at the time of taking worker and may also mean a partner out the policy. My contention in bring­ of a Chinese firm, and as a partner of ing this to the attention of the Com­ a Chinese firm he usually works in the missioner of Insurance is that under firm as a clerk, a labourer or an odd this scheme of non-medical examina­ job man. Sir, this case I would like to tion it has been stipulated that the quote is from a company called the form just need to be filled up, and the American International Company. I point was that the form was not filled have here an application form, in up by the insured but by the agent photostat, which was signed by an and the insurer could not understand applicant and which was then filled up the English as set out in the form, by an agent. Now, this applicant was and at times neither could the agent. fortunate enough to know a little bit Therefore, I would request the Hon­ of English, that is signing his name— ourable Minister to look into the case that is all; and the other cases were of as he had done in the case of mush­ people who could not understand room insurance companies. I am sure English but who signed in Chinese. there is no case for him to study as These are supposed to be the docu­ regards this non-medical scheme. Now, ments of a deceased without proper I mention this case of the American witnessing by a third party or an company because it happened to be interpreter to interpret in the language one of the cases that I have come 4819 6 DECEMBER 1965 4820 across, and I quoted it just as I have of the Customs and, incidentally, this it here—it is by the American Inter­ happened to the Police as well as the national Assurance Company Limited Road Transport Department, because and these are the two or three cases the Police at every station, I heard, in which they have written to the collect a dollar or so from the taxi beneficiaries asking them to collect the drivers and the lorry drivers. In this premium which they are entitled but particular case, which I know of, I not the amount insured. request the Honourable Minister to Now, Mr Chairman, Sir, I come to study it, because I have read in a Supply Head 26—Customs. Under this Report, that is called the Report of Head, I would like to compliment the 1952—Commission of Enquiry into the Honourable Minister of Finance and integrity of Officers in the Government the staff of the Customs Department. Department, and in page 30, I remem­ In complimenting the Honourable ber, that paragraph referred parti­ Minister and the Staff of the Royal cularly to this "insurance" or gifts in Customs, I would like to point out to the Customs Department and it clearly the Minister that they have done a very stated that it is quite a concern to the good job in increasing the Government Government Department and especially coffers, but in increasing the coffers of the Customs. It is not the smuggling, the Government, there are also minor it is this insurance or gift system that points which we have got to study. Of is more concerning to the Customs course, one is the inducement, the Department and that is the cause of incentiveness, the pay of the lower the drainage of the revenue. Therefore, group of Customs Officers—their I request the Honourable Minister of salaries must be increased in order to Finance when he speaks of smuggling, prevent the temptation of "fishing". not to think of the people participating, and do not refer to the group who are Sir, I would like to make some the buyers, or the suppliers, or even observations, if I may. For example, those who happen to stay in the same we have touting along the places where island as smugglers, but think of his you have Customs stations—in Johore Department, think of his Officers. and in Penang. Touting means there You have the good ones, you have are a few people around there collect­ the bad ones and I know that in this ing forms to hand in, and you have Department he may have 99% good got to pay a dollar or two and these ones, but the 1% black sheep inside touts will go to the coffee shops to there is enough to spoil the good name settle the matter. Now, touting is one of the Royal Customs Department and of the dangers which leads to the root the good name of the Minister, and of all. the evils in corruptions. we know very well the Honourable Minister slogs and slaves very hard to Now, we have another problem maintain the prestige of having the called the "insurance scheme" or gift. initial "The Royal Customs" and the This insurance scheme, as I said Honourable Minister of Home Affairs before, was that certain kampongs has the honour of having the Royal would pay a certain monthly amount Force. I am sure the Honourable to some officers who will come to get Minister of Finance who has the at his leisure time, or after office, and privilege of being the head of the sometimes they have been exploited by the staff of the Company. For Department will be conferred with the example, they have lorry attendants honour of the Royal initial. Therefore, and lorry drivers or clerks liaisoning in respect of this 1 or 2% of "dirt", I with the Customs Department. They am sure, with the capability and the just go back to the office and say firmness and the tact of the Honour­ "Well, every month we have got to able Minister of Finance, he will be pay to this Officer, say $50 or $100", able to keep his Department clean. but in reality they are the people who Therefore, I just say, touting and this keep the money. This thing does the insurance or Gift Scheme in his Customs Department no good and it Customs Department is not doing his is, shall I say, spoiling the good name department any good. So I appeal to 4821 6 DECEMBER 1965 4822 him to consider that while you are hendak mengurangkan belanja pang­ referring to the people of participating gilan2 talipon sa-bagaimana yang in smuggling, on the other hand in di-sebutkan oleh Yang Berhormat. your Department we have people act­ Kalau-lah di-maksudkan supaya hen­ ing as accomplices to this smuggling. dak di-kurangkan panggilan talipon So a cleaning would help the country ini patut-lah pada permulaan 100 and your Government coffers will be atau pun kalau hendak di-naikkan 200 increased. Thank you, Sir. atau 300—di-kurangkan, bayaran-nya, kata-lah 5 sen, umpama-nya, atau pun Enche' Ismail bin Idris (Penang kalau tidak hendak di-kenakan 5 sen, Selatan): Tuan Pengerusi, saya bangun tinggikan-lah panggilan talipon dari­ menyokong Anggaran Perbelanjaan pada 100 ini kapada satu angka, kata- Kementerian ini. Pertama sa-kali, saya lah 200 atau 300, yang berma'ana 2 kalau di-panggil 300 call berma'ana- suka hendak menguchapkan banyak 2 terima kaseh dan tahniah kapada lah 5 sen pada tiap satu call dan sa-lepas itu boleh-lah di-kenakan 10 Kementerian Kewangan yang telah 2 bekerja keras dan yang sunggoh2 mem- sen pada tiap satu panggilan tem­ punyai keazaman untok mendapatkan patan. Ini saya rasa ada lebeh logic sa-banyak2 wang bagi negara kita ini sadikit atau pun more logical. Itu saya untok membelanjakan kapada ra'ayat. minta-lah supaya Kementerian ini Ketegasan beliau itu patut-lah men- dapat menimbangkan sa-mula, kerana ini ada-lah datang daripada rungutan2 dapat pujian daripada seluroh ra'ayat 2 negeri ini. Perkara yang patut kita ra'ayat, kerana di-mana juga kita memberi pujian ia-lah kapada kerja- pergi hari ini, kita dapat rungutan, sama Menteri ini dengan rayuan2 kerana ini-lah patut di-beri pertim- bangan, kerana dalam 100 call itu yang telah di-beri oleh ra'ayat, ter- 2 utama sa-kali berkenaan dengan Turn­ sahaja kalau di-kira 15 sen tiap satu over Tax. Sa-sunggoh-nya telah me- call. Ini kalau dapat di-pertimbangkan, nyenangkan perasaan ra'ayat, khas-nya saya tidak minta jawapan. Ini saya 2 memberi pendapat daripada ra'ayat orang yang berniaga, kerana terhapus- 2 nya Turnover Tax ini. yang telah membuat rungutan , saya ingat tentu-lah semua wakil2 kita Tuan Pengerusi, saya suka hendak dapat rayuan2 yang sa-macham ini. membawa kapada pengetahuan Yang Berhormat ia-itu pada mula-nya waktu Datang soal yang kedua, Tuan beliau beruchap dalam Majlis ini, ia- Pengerusi, ia-itu berkenaan dengan itu meminda atau mengenakan chukai Chukai Pendapatan oleh orang2 yang kapada panggilan2 talipon tempatan, mempunya'i lebeh daripada sa-orang saya bukan-lah tidak bersetuju dengan isteri. Saya rasa ini ada-lah terlibat chara yang di-jalankan oleh Yang juga beberapa Ahli2 Yang Berhormat Berhormat ini, atau Kementerian ini, kita, dan tentu-lah .... tetapi bagi 100 call atau 100 panggilan tempatan dan sa-lepas itu di-kenakan Dr Ng Kam Poh: Untok penjelasan, 2 10 sen bagi tiap satu panggilan, ada- apa Head itu? lah pada pendapat saya patut di- pertimbangkan sa-mula, kerana kalau Enche' Ismail bin Idris: Menteri— di-kira hari ini, chukai talipon bagi Menteri Kewangan. Saya, yang sa- satu private house atau rumah biasa benar-nya, Tuan Pengerusi, tidak di-kenakan $180 pada sa-tahun ia- ada—I am not interested in this itu $15 pada sa-bulan. Jika di-kira because I have only one wife, only one pada 100 panggilan tempatan bagi sa- 2 wife; I am not interested. I am just bulan, berma'ana-lah pada tiap pang­ speaking on behalf of other people and gilan itu di-kenakan 15 sen. Jadi, especially my friend who brought this saya rasa kalau pada pertama 100 matter up. kali itu di-panggil di-kenakan 15 sen pada tiap2 kali dan sa-lepas itu pula Tuan Pengerusi, saya ada mem- di-kenakan 10 sen pada tiap2 kali, punyai sa-orang kawan yang mem- saya rasa ini tidak-lah berasa sesuai punyai' dua isteri dan dia membawa kalau tujuan dan maksud Kementerian perkara ini kapada saya beberapa 4823 6 DECEMBER 1965 4824 tahun di-minta supaya dapat di- kepala 7—Elaun Hidup Orang2 Pen- pertimbangkan. Dia ada mempunyai chen. Tuan Pengerusi, nampak-nya isteri yang halal, yang sah pada segi apakala sa-saorang itu sudah penchen, undang2 shara', atau pun pada segi kedudokan orang itu dalam segi mem- undang2 adat, tetapi sa-orang isteri belanjakan wang2, tentu-lah kurang yang mula itu ta' ada kerja. Isteri yang daripada di-waktu dia bekerja dan nombor dua itu ada mempunyai kerja saya nampak perkara ini kurang men­ Kerajaan. Ini saya hendak beritahu dapat perhatian Kerajaan, terutama sa- Kerajaan supaya tepat kedudokan-nya, kali orang2 yang telah berpenchen 10 tetapi mengikut Section 47 (1) Undang2 tahun lebeh dahulu, khas-nya pada Chukai berbunyi: orang2 yang penchen itu yang mendapat gaji kechil dan sara hidup yang kechil "The Income Tax of a married woman pula. Saya berharap-lah supaya ke­ living with her husband shall, for the purpose dudokan orang2 ini dapat di-pertim­ of this Ordinance, be deemed to be the 2 income of the husband and shall be charged bangkan, kerana orang ini maseh ada in the name of the husband and not in her mempunyai anak2 yang lebeh banyak name nor in that of trustee." apakala dia penchen itu, anak lebeh Itu section-nya, tetapi apa yang di- banyak dan tambahan pula, kalau dia itu bernikah, berkahwin lambat, tentu- maksudkan dalam kemahuan sahabat 2 saya itu, ia-lah dia ada mempunyai dua lah anak ini maseh kechil dan apa­ kala sudah sampai masa untok hendak isteri, tetapi isteri yang nombor dua 2 yang mempunyai pendapatan, yang bersara, anak itu maseh belum dewasa ada bergaji, yang bekerja, tidak men­ yang berkehendakkan pelajaran dan dapat habuan saperti mana yang di- sa-bagai-nya, dan pendapatan waktu dapati oleh isteri yang pertama, ia-itu dia bersara itu sangat kechil. Tidak- $1,000. Itu soal yang saya hendak kah Kerajaan sekarang, dengan naik- tanya ini supaya dapat di-jawab. nya belanja hidup, dapat menim- Meng,apa-kah isteri yang kedua itu, bangkan supaya memberi sadikit kele- tambah2 pula dia ada mempunyai pen­ behan, atau pun meninggikan sadikit peratus elaun hidup, atau elaun sara dapatan, pendapatan dia itu di-masok- 2 2 kan mengikut section ini di-dalam hidup kapada orang ini, muga dapat- kiraan suami-nya, dan dia tidak ber- lah orang ini bernafas sadikit di-dalam hak mendapat $1,000; pada hal dia soal penghidupan mereka itu, kerana ada-lah isteri yang halal, isteri yang apakala dia sudah bersara, sudah tentu-lah dia tidak dapat hendak sah pada suami itu. Itu-lah yang 2 2 saya minta supaya dapat pertim- menjalankan kerja dia yang berat bangan. Kalau isteri yang nombor dua saperti mana yang dia telah lakukan. ini, yang mendapat gaji dan gaji Saya hanya meminta supaya dapat Kerajaan menimbangkan, terutama sa- dia itu di-masokkan dalam kiraan 2 suami-nya dan dia tidak mendapat kali orang yang bergaji $200 ka- hak $1,000 itu, apa faedah-nya dia bawah. Itu saya minta dapat di- pertimbangkan. Ini semua perkara2 hendak nikah, hendak kahwin, lebeh 2 baik dia kata, baik-lah, "saya ta' usah yang berlaku di-dalam tempat , bukan tempat saya sahaja, saya rasa tempat kahwin, boleh masok account saya 2 sendiri, ma'ana-nya saya $2,000 ter- Ahli Yang Berhormat semua ada lepas". Itu maksud saya, hendak berlaku perkara yang sa-macham ini. meminta supaya dapat penjelasan, atau pun dapat di-pertimbangkan oleh Ke- menterian ini, muga2 kebanyakan dari- Sa-lain daripada itu, Tuan Penge­ pada Ahli2 Yang Berhormat kita ini rusi, saya suka hendak menyampaikan terima kaseh banyak kapada kaki- pun berasa senang hati sadikit ma'alum 2 $1,000 kalau dapat di-tambah, di- tangan dan pegawai Kastam yang keluarkan daripada chukai itu, ada-lah telah menjalankan segala usaha dan lebeh baik juga. Ini satu perkara, ke- daya-nya bagi melipat-gandakan pen­ rana keraguan sahabat saya, supaya dapatan hasil negeri, pendapatan dapat pertimbangaan dalam soal ini. negeri, di-dalam soal mengumpulkan wang, dan saya harap supaya pegawai2 Lepas itu saya hendak datang ka- dan kaki-tangan Kerajaan dalam pada S. 24, muka surat 262, Pechahan- Department Kastam ini dapat berusaha 4825 6 DECEMBER 1965 4826 dan bekerja lebeh giat lagi dengan satu kali sa-bulan, mereka itu, kalau niat dan tujuan supaya membanyak- berhutang pun, dapat harga yang kan hasil dalam negerii kita ini, muga2 murah sadikit, sebab apa, bayaran-nya seg#la ranchangan2 yang di-jalankan lekas dan ini akan mengurangkan dalam negara ini dapat di-jalankan orang yang suka berhutang. Kalau dengan tertib. Sekian, terima kaseh. dapat sa-minggu sa-kali lagi baik, te- tapi itu-lah kesulitan-nya banyak, Tuan Haji Rahmat bin Haji Daud terutama sa-kali macham negeri (Johor Bahru Barat): Tuan Pengerusi, Australia sana—sa-masa saya melawat saya sokongj atas Rang Belanjawan ini ka-sana—saya tengok, mereka itu dan saya hanya hendak berchakap dapat gaji empat kali sa-bulan. sadikit sahaja berkenaan dengan S. 23 Sunggoh pun banyak pehak Kemen­ Bahagian 1, Bilangan 1. Saya suka terian Kewangan membuat kerja, tetapi berchakap berkenaan dengan pegawai2 ini akan memberi keuntongan kapada Kerajaan di-dalam Bahagian III dan kaki2-tangan kita. IV. Mereka ini biasa-nya dapat gaji yang paling rendah sa-kali di-antara Saya perchaya kalau ada yang sa- kaki2-tangan Kerajaan dan selalu-nya macham ini, mereka tidak akan me- menampong kesulitan kerana bila di- nuntut kenaikan gaji lagi. Sebab apa, belanjakan wang pendapatan itu tiap2 mereka itu lapang tidak menunggu bulan, selalu habis sa-belum sampai lama, kalau sa-bulan chukup lama— daripada awal bulan itu bila dapat gaji akhir bulan oleh kerana mereka itu 2 mendapat gaji sa-bulan sa-kali. Biasa- dia lupa, dia belanjakan macham nya mereka itu membelanjakan wang- perbelanjaan dan bila tengah bulan, nya itu membeli barang keperluan wang sudah tidak ada lagi, dia ber­ hari2 selalu-nya berhutang di-kedai hutang, sampai-lah mereka tua dan dan bila berhutang tentu-lah tauke penchen pun berhutang juga. Kalau kedai itu hendak menggunakan satu dapat wang bonos pun, tidak boleh kerani untok menjaga kira2 hutang dan membayar hutang. Tetapi kalau sa- kerani itu akan mendapat gaji dan juga kira-nya di-bayar dua minggu sa-kali, tauke kedai pun mengambil barang di- apa juga yang dia berhutang dapat kedai2 lain pun berhutang juga, tidak harga yang murah sadikit daripada boleh juga barang yang dia berhutang biasa yang dia berhutang sa-bulan tadi bertambah2 mahal. Sa-tengah dari- sa-kali. Kalau mereka itu berchermat, pada sa-tengah-nya, boleh dapat mem­ mereka itu dapat simpan wang, jadi beli barang itu 20% atau 30% lebeh kalau dapat simpan wang, ekonomi daripada harga biasa. Kalau umpama- negara akan naik dan akan menjadi nya di-beli tunai, harga $1.00, kalau lebeh baik. Jadi saya harap-lah pehak Kementerian ini dapat menimbangkan, berhutang boleh menjadi $1.30. Maka 2 yang selalu-nya terkena bagitu orang2 sunggoh pun kerja akan bertambah banyak, tetapi ini akan merengankan yang bergaji rendah. Ini-lah yang 2 sangat mendukachitakan, terutama-nya beribu kaki-tangan kita dalam Divi­ sa-kali di-kawasan saya itu di-Johor sion III dan IV. Bahru—banyak orang yang bekerja Demikian-lah saya uchapkan terima dalam Division IV yang hanya men­ kaseh, Tuan Pengerusi. dapat gaji $80.00 atau $90.00 dan di- bawah $300.00 pun; susah juga. Enche' Hussein bin To' Muda Hassan (Raub): Dato' Pengerusi, saya Saya berharap Kementerian ini chuma hendak membuat perhatian dapat-lah menimbangkan supaya me­ sambilan kapada Yang Berhormat reka itu dapat gaji dalam dua kali sa- Menteri Kewangan, pada masa mem- bulan bagaimana gaji yang di-beri bahathkan uchapan Budget-nya da- 2 hulu, saya telah pun membangkitkan kapada askar dalam Kementerian 2 Pertahanan, mereka di-bayar gaji ter- satu pandangan dan rayuan pendudok utama sa-kali rank and file, sa-bulan di-tempat saya berkenaan dengan dua kali dan saya tahu kesulitan Lottery Three Digits. Jadi saya bawa sangat berkurangan. Saya perchaya pandangan itu ka-sini dahulu, memohon kalau gaji2 mereka itu di-bayar dua jasa baik Yang Berhormat Menteri 4827 6 DECEMBER 1965 4828

Kewangan, supaya lesen Lottery Three keluarga si-gila ini tadi, dan ada juga Digits yang ada di-Raub itu di-tarek tempat2 itu yang kita hendak awasi balek, kerana untok faedah ra'ayat betul2 pembayaran-nya, ada sa-tengah yang miskin di-tempat itu. itu, orang itu telah gila, ada anak dua Sekarang saya berjangkit pada muka tiga orang yang sudah besar. Hal 262, S. 24, Pechahan-kepala 7—Elaun keadaan orang ini tidak di-hiraukan- Belanja Hidup atas Penchen sa-banyak nya, tetapi dia hendakkan penchen $8,150,000. Sa-patut-nya saya tidak orang itu di-bayar kapada-nya. Jadi boleh berchakap dalam perkara ini perkara bagini lebeh baik, saya rasa, tetapi ini-lah peluang yang dapat saya penchen yang sa-macham ini di-bayar berchakap. Pendapat saya, pegawai2 melalui Pegawai Daerah tempatan itu Kerajaan yang telah berkhidmat bagitu supaya terselamat wang ini, sama lama, telah masok dalam Anggaran ada di-simpan di-dalam Bank Sim- panan Pejabat Pos atau pun di-berikan Berpenchen—Pensionable Establish­ 2 ment—maka dengan takdir Tuhan, kapada warith yang betul yang atau pun hal yang lain, mereka itu hendak menjaga orang sakit gila ini jatoh gila. Ma'alum-lah di-atas dunia tadi. Sa-tengah-nya banyak yang gila, ini ada bermacham2 gila, ada gila suka yang sa-benar-nya gila itu ia-lah di- pakai uniform, ada gila sembahyang tempatkan di-dalam Hospital di- tidak berhenti2, ada gila hendak sen- Tanjong Rambutan, atau pun di- tiasa memukul orang. Maka apabila Tampoi. Ini masa gila yang tidak mereka ini di-hantar ka-hospital, di- menyusahkan orang atau pun tidak dapati betul mereka itu gila dan di- merosakkan orang yang dudok di- hantarkan ka-Hospital Orang Gila, rumah. Jadi orang yang sa-macham umpama-nya di-Tanjong Rambutan, ini-lah yang patut kita bayar chepat kapada keluarga-nya. Tetapi orang atau pun di-Tampoi, maka dapat-lah 2 Ketua2 Perubatan di-situ mengesahkan yang betul gila dudok di-dalam yang mereka itu betul2 gila, maka Hospital itu, yang tidak keluar itu, dan Kerajaan pun menjalankan Undang2 tidak boleh keluar, itu pun kalau di-bawah Berpenchen dengan Kerana keluarga-nya banyak, maka di-harap- Sakit (Medical Board). lah di-bayar dengan sa-berapa segera juga. Maka bagitu-lah terhadap pan- Satu kesulitan yang saya alami, dangan saya, Tuan Pengerusi, terhadap sebab banyak orang yang berjumpa berkenaan dengan pembayaran elaun dengan saya, di-atas penchen, atau belanja hidup atas penchen ini. Terima pun bonos2 yang akan di-bayar yang kaseh. patut di-terima oleh pegawai Kerajaan yang otak-nya tidak bagitu betul itu Tuan Haji Mokhtar bin Haji Ismail tadi, ada sadikit lambat dan menjadi 2 (Pedis Selatan): Dato' Pengerusi, saya kesusahan kapada anak , atau pun mengalu2kan perbekalan ini dan saya isteri mereka itu yang tinggal. Sa- hendak berchakap sadikit sahaja di- tengah-nya ada pula pegawai Kerajaan yang otak-nya tidak betul itu, macham dalam Perbekalan Perbelanjaan Ke­ orang gila sembahyang, dia tidak di- wangan ini. Saya hendak menyentoh beri penchen itu di-bayar kapada S. 26, muka 265, Butiran (1)— 2 2 Pengawal Kastam Negara muka 267 anak dan isteri dia, jadi terpaksa- 2 lah berunding dengan Accountant- berkenaan dengan Pegawai Kastam. General di-sini, jadi memakan masa lama sadikit, hendak sign indemnity Sa-bagaimana yang telah di-uchap- bond, hendak sign itu, hendak sign ini. kan di-dalam Dewan ini oleh Yang Berhormat Menteri Kewangan ber­ Jadi ini saya harapkan, jikalau sa- 2 kiri-nya ada perkara yang sa-demikian kenaan dengan kesusahan bagi Kera­ yang di-bawa terutama sa-kali oleh jaan hendak mengawal sempadan2 Ahli Parlimen yang membawa perkara terutama sa-kali sempadan di-antara ini ka-hadapan, patut-lah di-segerakan Thailand dengan Malaysia dan yang sadikit dan boleh-lah Wakil Ra'ayat mana Yang Berhormat Menteri Ke­ di-tempat itu bertanggong-jawab di- wangan telah sedar, banyak kita telah atas pembayaran wang itu kapada kehilanean sumber2 kewangan kita 4829 6 DECEMBER 1965 4830 dari sebab perkara2 yang timbul dari- itu menjalankan kerja2 saperti menye- pada perlarian chukai, terutama sa-kali ludup chukai itu, jadi dengan sebab sukatan pelarian beras dan lain2 lagi itu, lori itu tertangkap, maka apabila dan dalam sadikit masa yang lalu, di-tangkap, lori2 itu di-rampas. Jadi sempadan di-antara Perlis dengan dengan hal yang demikian tuan yang Thailand ia-itu di-Padang Besar, telah telah mengeluarkan modal yang bagitu ada satu Pekan Minggu yang mana banyak, kerana membeli lori itu, pada tiap2 minggu boleh di-katakan dia tidak tahu dengan perbuatan2 hampir puloh ribu daripada seluroh yang di-lakukan oleh driver itu. Jadi Malaysia ini yang melawat ka-sana ini-lah saya minta dan merayu kapada dan oleh kerana kita tidak mempunyai pehak Kementerian—Menteri Ke­ kawalan2 yang rapi berkenaan dengan wangan supaya menghalusi perkara2 chara kita memungut chukai, atau yang tersebut supaya jangan terjadi hasil daripada barang2 yang masok teraniaya kapada tuan2 yang punya daripada Thailand tadi ka-Malaysia, lori yang telah mengeluarkan modal maka saya dapati banyak-lah kita yang bagitu banyak. telah kehilangan wang2 negara kita. Dan oleh kerana itu, saya memikirkan Bagitu juga saya membawa per- ada-lah sangat mustahak bagi Menteri hatian di-dalam Rumah ini ber­ Kewangan dan Pengawal Kastam kenaan dengan—walau pun perkara ini Negara memikir apa-kah satu chara ada bersangkut-paut dengan Menteri yang dapat kita mengawal supaya Pengangkutan tetapi sebab perkara ini dapat kita mengutip hasil2 negara kita berlaku—berkenaan dengan hasil menjadi bertambah baik. mahsul negara patut-lah pehak Men­ teri Kewangan dan pehak Menteri Yang kedua, Tuan Pengerusi, saya Pengangkutan memikirkan, kerana dapati dalam Custom Office di-Padang banyak lori kita yang menjalankan Besar, banyak-lah barang2 yang sudah perniagaan yang dudok di-dalam Thai­ di-tangkap dan di-rampas yang mana land yang tidak balek langsong. Ini bertimbun2 di-dalam pejabat tersebut. pun boleh kata satu daripada chara- Jadi saya bertanya kapada Pegawai nya, kalau kita biar bahawasa-nya Kastam di-situ kenapa barang2 itu yang lori ini tinggal di-sana, boleh tidak di-lelong. Kata-nya barang2 ini jadi orang2 ini pun menjadi sa- tidak di-lelong di-Padang Besar, ter- bahagian yang akan menjalankan paksa-lah di-bawa ka-Alor Star dan kerja2 yang tidak baik. Jadi, itu-lah di-sana-lah baharu di-jalankan per- saya mendatangkan perhatian ini ka­ lelongan itu. Jadi saya memikirkan pada Menteri Kewangan supaya me­ supaya akan senang lagi kapada mikirkan bagaimana chara supaya Pegawai2 Kastam yang bertugas di- kewangan kita berkenaan dengan Kas­ sana supaya barang2 yang di-rampas tam ini akan bertambah hasil negara di-Padang Besar itu di-bawa sahaja kita dari sa-masa ka-samasa. Sekian- ka-Kangar, atau di-lelong di-Kangar lah Tuan Pengerusi. dengan tidak payah lagi di-hantar ka- Alor Star. Jadi dengan chara ini dapat- Enche' Ong Kee Hui (Sarawak): lah kita menjalankan kerja itu dengan Sir, I would just like to touch very sa-berapa chepat dan sa-berapa segera. briefly on two Heads which were moved by the Honourable the Assistant Akhir-nya sa-kali, Tuan Pengerusi, Minister of Finance: one is on Head saya hendak menyentoh berkenaan 27, Trade and Customs, Borneo States, perkara ini juga, berkenaan dengan the other one is on Head 30, Inland lori2 yang di-tahan oleh Kastam, Revenue Borneo States. On both these kerana lori itu telah terlibat di-dalam Heads, Sir, under Personal Emoluments, membawa barang2 chukai. Jadi, biasa- I would like to seek an assurance from nya, Tuan Pengerusi, lori2 tadi ke- the Honourable Finance Minister that banyakan-nya, kalau di-negeri Perlis, these two Departments, which are di-punyai oleh orang2 Melayu. Jadi being rapidly Malayanised, or Borneo- kadang2 driver yang membawa lori itu nised, due regard will be given to the dengan tidak sa-tahu kapada tuan lori appointments of Sarawak people or 4831 6 DECEMBER 1965 4832 local people because there are, 1 hardship, and I would therefore like to believe, quite a number of students appeal to the Honourable Finance who have gone abroad, particularly to Minister to look into this more closely Australia lor Accountancy, and quite a when he considers the representations number of them will be looking for which have been made. openings for employment when they come back. I would like the Honour­ Enche' Senawi bin Ismail (Seberang able Minister to consider filling these Selatan): Tuan Pengerusi, saya chuma appointments by local people who have hendak chakap sadikit sahaja, ia-itu the required qualifications. Otherwise berkenaan dengan muka 279, S. 29 these people would come back rather ia-itu Pejabat Chukai Setem. Tuan frustrated, having got the qualifica­ Pengerusi, bagaimana kita dapat tahu, tions, and having no openings, parti­ Pejabat Chukai Setem ini telah mem- cularly in a country like Sarawak beri sumbangan yang besar, terutama where opportunities for employment sa-kali pada orang2 yang membeli in this skill are somewhat limitd. tanah dan menjual tanah untok memungutkan beberapa2 banyak chukai. The other point I wish to make, Sir, Bagi kami pendudok2 di-Pulau Pinang, is on Head 30, Inland Revenue. I yang selalu saya dapat tahu, manakala believe representations have already sa-orang hendak membeli tanah dan been received by the Honourable hendak menjual tanah, terpaksa-lah Finance Minister on the effects of his 2 proposed turnover tax of 2 per cent. kedua orang itu pergi kapada peguam, This imposition has caused a good ia-itu loyar, di-sana-lah, Tuan Pengerusi, deal of concern in Sarawak. I think the dapat memutuskan beberapa harga yang United Chamber of Commerce has met di-jual kapada sa-saorang. Manakala and has appealed to the Minister to siap—yang selalu orang Pulau Pinang reduce this turnover tax from 2 per kata—ia-itu geran peguam itu hantar cent to 1 per cent on the ground that ka-Pejabat Setem Office ia-itu Pejabat quite a good many of the businesses Chukai di-Pulau Pinang, di-sana-lah which would be affected by this turn­ supaya menentukan beberapa banyak over tax are already paying to the chukai yang antara kedua mereka itu State Government by way of trade dapat menjelaskan. Tuan Pengerusi, licence fees which are based more or yang mendukakan manakala sa-orang less on the basis of turnover. I hope peguam telah hantar di-Pejabat Chukai that the Honourable Finance Minister sa-hingga-nya satu tahun, dua tahun, will give sympathetic consideration to tiga tahun dan empat tahun, Pejabat these representations. An approach has Chukai itu tidak menghantar surat been made, in fact, to the State tukar nama itu kapada peguam. Jadi Government to repeal the Trade Li­ memandangkan ada-nya perkara yang cences Ordinance, but we are informed sa-macham ini, Tuan Pengerusi, satu that since May this year this matter tahun sa-hingga empat tahun ini satu masa yang lama, jadi menjadi-lah satu has already become a Federal subject, 2 and the State Legislature is therefore kesusahan terutama sa-kali bagi orang unable to deal with this matter. I hope pembeli. therefore that the Honourable Finance 2 Minister will taike this matlter into Tuan Pengerusi, tiap pembeli ada consideration when considering the gulongan yang besar dan ada gulongan whole basis of the turnover tax. yang kechil, terutama sa-kali bagi orang yang membeli kebun2 getah tua sa- Finally, I would like to add, Sir, banyak lima ekar atau 10 ekar. Jadi that to quite a number of business harapan mereka itu, Tuan Pengerusi, which would be affected by this trade, hendak menebang pokok2 getah yang particularly those who are working on tua itu hendak di-tanam baharu, tetapi an agency basis and also those who dengan kerana lambat Pejabat Chukai have a big turnover but a very small ini memberi jawab kapada peguam ini, margin, the imposition of a turnover Tuan Pengerusi, sa-hingga empat tahun, tax of 2 per cent based on the turnover jadi permintaan itu lambat Tuan would in fact create a good deal of Pengerusi, kerana mengikut yang saya 4833 6 DECEMBER 1965 4834

tahu, kalau sa-kira-nya tidak dapat sah dan membuat modal, membuat rumah, daripada Stamp Office dan tidak dapat menchari tempat dia hendak dudok, di-registerkan di-Land Office, ia-itu kerana pada masa2 yang lalu tidak-lah Pegawai Menanam Sa-mula, tidak saperti masa yang ada sekarang ini dapat-lah di-benarkan di-tanam sa-mula. ia-itu Kerajaan menggalakkan pekerja2- Jadi, ini-lah saya, Tuan Pengerusi, nya membangunkan rumah sendiri sa- memberi perhatian kapada Menteri ini belum lagi bersara. Jadi buat kata saya supaya perkara ini jangan berlaku lagi, tadi, kalau sa-kira-nya orang yang men­ kerana kalau dapat dengan chepat, dapat penchen penoh, mithal-nya $200, dalam dua tahun lagi boleh dia apabila di-tolak 1/4 tinggal-lah dia $150, menoreh, Tuan Pengerusi. Ini sahaja ini-lah penchen yang di-terima-nya saya menyokong di-atas perbelanjaan tiap2 bulan. Tetapi kalau dia mati di- peruntokan bagi tahun 1966 ini bagi dalam tempoh 10 tahun, atau 12 tahun Kementerian Kewangan. Terima kaseh. yang di-tutup oleh quarter penchen tadi, \ penchen itu tentu-lah Kerajaan boleh Dato' Dr Haji Megat Khas (Kuala katakan untong, kerana bayar 1/4sahaja . Kangsar): Dato' Pengerusi, saya suka Tetapi kalau dia panjang umor lebeh hendak mengalu2kan permintaan belan- daripada 10 tahun atau 121/2 tahun, jawan yang di-kemukakan oleh Yang patut-lah yang 1/4yan g sudah di-bahagi Berhormat Menteri Kewangan bagi dahulu itu di-pulangkan balek. tahun 1966 ini, tetapi di-samping itu saya suka hendak menyentoh sadikit Saya fikirkan ini bukan-lah perkara di-dalam perkara S. 24, muka 262 yang rumit sangat, kerana mengenang- Pechahan-kepala 8, ia-itu berkenaan kan jasa yang telah di-bagikan-nya dengan perkara orang2 yang sudah kapada Kerajaan dan juga kapada berasa ia-itu berpenchen. Sa-bagaimana negara pada masa dia berkhidmat yang telah di-ketahui oleh orang ramai, 2 dahulu, dan bertambah pula dia tidak ia-itu penderitaan orang yang sudah ada apa lagi benda yang hendak di- bersara beberapa lama ada-lah sah dan harapkan sa-hingga malikalmaut datang jelas, kerana pendapatan mereka itu mengambil nyawa dia. Kebanyakan-nya bukan-lah saperti pendapatan orang orang yang sudah bersara, bagi itu-lah yang ada di-dalam perkhidmat dalam 2 keadaan-nya. Dan saya minta-lah pejabat Kerajaan pada masa ini. Bila pandangan dan timbangan ihsan-belas harga barang naik, dia orang minta gaji kapada orang2 yang sa-chara ini, kerana naik. Orang penchen tidak dapat hendak saya perchaya perkara yang sa-macham membuat macham itu, kalau dia dapat ini juga ada berlaku dalam negeri2 lain, $100 sa-tahun, dalam tahun 1920, 1937, apabila lepas daripada 10 tahun atau 1947, tahun 1967 besok dia dapat $100. 121/2 tahun, di-pulangkan balek supaya Jadi penderitaan itu ada dan sudah sah, dapat penchen yang penoh. Jadi kalau dan satu badan yang telah di-kelolakan sa-kira-nya dapat-lah Menteri Ke­ oleh beberapa orang yang sudah bersara wangan memikirkan perkara ini dan itu telah meminta beberapa kali kapada berbinchang di-dalam Jema'ah Menteri, Kerajaan supaya memberi ihsan dan barangkali juga ia-itu orang2 yang kasehan-belas atas penderitaan mereka bersara merasa yang dukachita dan itu. penderitaan yang sangat pada masa 2 sekarang in!, akan mendo'akan ia-itu Atoran orang yang bersara itu yang Kerajaan kita selamat-lah sa-lama2nya. lebeh ma'alum kapada semua orang yang ada, ia-itu apabila bersara, dia telah di-bagi 1/4 daripada penchen-nya Dr Lim Chong Eu (Tanjong): Mr itu di-ambil dahulu. Mithalan-nya, Chairman, Sir, in view of the fact that kalau dia mendapat kata-lah $200 we are taking all the Heads under the penchen penoh, 1/4 daripada itu ber- Ministry of Finance together, I feel that ma'ana-lah $50. $50 di-bagi dahulu I have to say right from the outset that kapada orang yang bersara itu sa- the remarks I am going to make are lama 10 tahun yang dahulu-nya, yang fairly strong, because the whole of the sekarang rasa saya kalau saya tidak Ministry of Finance—from the Treasury silap 121/2 tahun, sa-bagai menolong right down to Inland Revenue, and so 4835 6 DECEMBER 1965 4836 on—can be considered to be the foun- spend beyond our means"—these are tainhead of the whole of our budgetary the exact words of the Honourable proposals, and we would like to take Minister of Finance—because if we our comments from an observation start spending beyond our means the made by the Honourable Minister of inevitable day of reckoning will come. Finance himself, that he is increasingly concerned over this annually increasing Sir, I do suggest that in view of the salaries bill and has said that this austerity budget, in view of the fiscal increase should be equated by increased difficulties that we face, the Honourable productivity. Minister should first tighten up the organisation of his various Depart­ Sir, if we look through all the Personal ments and, secondly, we need not spend Emoluments provisions, the increase in $50 million on the Development Fund. the Personal Emoluments do not We could spend, say, $10 million less amount to very much in actual fact. But in order to offset the two very un­ even so, there is quite an interesting popular taxes. It would be possible, Sir, total increase for the P.E. in all the if the circumstances are provided, and various Heads from S. 23 to S. 30. which I have suggested, for us to offset and repeal the turnover tax in total. I Sir, we understand from the remarks think, Sir, certain Member of this made by the Honourable the Minister House in the Alliance benches have of Finance during his Budget speech referred to its unpopularity but in very that the amount of tax evasion comes gentle terms. This turnover tax is to an estimated total—it is only an extremely unpopular and, I think, if estimated total—of $100,000,000, and greater control, both over increase of the amount of smuggling that goes on revenue and over expenditure, were in the border area, particularly of rice, exercised by the Treasury, we can offset comes to over 100,000 tons, and there this $25 million that is expected from is probably also evasion in the collection the turnover tax and repeal that tax, of customs duties and there is always because that tax is extremely un­ smuggling going on. Sir, from the point popular. Furthermore, Sir, certain of view of effectiveness in savings, we Members in this House have also re­ certainly hope that the Ministry con­ ferred to the new iniquitous telephone cerned would ensure that the increase in tax. Again, Sir, by better control over its salaries, for its personal emoluments, the productivity of the various Depart­ will be productive of the very kind of ments and by curtailing our develop­ effort which the Honourable Minister of Finance has asked the whole country ment fund in view of our difficulties, to show in this austerity budget, that we could offset this $5.3 million which we will make savings of that order by is expected to be derived from the new fulfilling the proper functioning of the telephone tax and this new telephone Ministry in all its various Departments. tax, Sir, will certainly cause hardship Sir, that total sum of $100,000,000, and in this country not only in terms of more when you think in terms of the the young children who want to talk to smuggling that is going on of rice and one another over the telephone, but so on, is a considerable sum, Sir, Sir, it is a custom now, a simple habit, because if we take that expenditure in for example, for the people in the relation to the further provision of $50 families to telephone their grocers, or million in page 264, Head S. 25, Sub­ the coffee shops for more coffee, etc. head 1—the provision of $50 million Any day, Sir, any telephone will cer­ for the Development Fund—we see a tainly be used more than three or four very interesting picture, a picture which times a day which will make a total I suggest to the Honourable Minister of a hundred a month extremely of Finance to consider seriously, small. Sir, we urge the Government because I wish to deal with the question seriouly to consider repealing these two of savings that could be made, increased taxes, the telephone tax and the turn­ revenue that could be more effectively over tax, and it can be done, Sir, by ensured, and "we need not necessarily curtailing this $50 million provision 4837 6 DECEMBER 1965 4838 for the Development Fund and by mak­ this growing tendency of the increase ing sure that the various Departments in housing and hotel allowances and under the Treasury will provide better throughout all these provisions under control over tax evasion and better the P.E. in all the various Heads, control over smuggling. except fori one, which is the one which comes under Organisation and Methods Sir, there are some minor points Division, the hotel and housing allow­ which I wish to raise for elucidation ances have continued to go up. So, from the Honourable Minister of there is a continuing trend and I Finance, or from the Assistant Minister wonder whether the Honourable Minis­ of Finance, since he presented the ter will not consider looking into this Estimates. Sir, this question of Crown problem to find out how we could stop Agents Fees under Head S. 24, page this trend of ever upward spiral- 262 has already been mentioned and ing, because year in year out through­ we wonder whether it is still necessary out the whole country, from the Central to continue using the Crown Agents as Government down to the States in agents for our purchases; and there is every Department and in every Minis­ another item in the same page, Sir, the try, there is a continuing spiral. question of Ex-Gratia Allowances and Awards. We are not very certain Sir, I notice that the provisions laid Sir, about the intention of this sum. down under P.E. for the States of Then, Sir, there is another small item— Sabah and Sarawak have a far more Sub-head 12, expenditure of $6,000 detailed series of allowances, and payable to the Indian Government in housing and hotel allowances are respect of payment to Malayan pen­ broken up into housing and other sioners in India. We have our own High allowances in a very much more speci­ Commission in India and I wonder fic manner. So, whether or not it will whether it is still necessary for us to be useful for us to have this item, hotel go on using the Indian Government as and housing allowances, broken down agents to pay this for us. There are into their various component parts so a few other items, in general, which 1 that we can see how much actually is would like to touch upon, in regard being spent on hotel allowances and to the question of trying to curtail our how much is actually being spent on expenditure: they are on page 263, housing allowances, and make a survey under Sub-head 33—Compensation for on views how to curtail the spiraling Damage caused by Security Forces for upwards of the expenditure, I think which there is a provision of $60,000; would help considerably in controlling on page 269 Head 26, Sub-head 14— the increasing expenditures which the Compensation for Loss of Private country has got to meet. Sir, I have Property caused by Anti-Smuggling talked on this Head previously and Operations—$5,000; Expenses for throughout the whole of this budget. Experts, page 276, under Special Ex­ Sir, if we were to make savings, or if penditure, Sub-head 7—$28,200; and we were only to provide for a standstill there is also a provision here for Cost housing and hotel allowances for this of Court Fees, the exact total for that year, the total alone, I think, would item. Sir, I just cannot reach just now. fairly well offset this $5.3 million which Sir, these are items of expenditure the Government seeks through the which, I feel, with a certain degree of iniquitous telephone tax. So, I urge the greater control could be reduced even Govemment, both by better control of more than what is now provided. Sir, this expenditure, as well as by cutting the other item is one which I have down this contribution of $50 million mentioned previously and that is if the to the Development Fund, to try and Treasury sets the same pace, naturally balance the situation and remove and the other Departments and other repeal the iniquitous turnover tax and Ministries will follow. stop the introduction of the telephone Therefore, Sir, on this question of tax which I am sure will cause great expenditure on personal emoluments, outcry and hardship throughout the I have indicated that there is always country. 4839 6 DECEMBER 1965 4840

Enche' Ahmad bin Arshad (Muar mat Menteri ini kalau boleh di-kaji sa- Utara): Yang Berhormat Dato' Penge- mula supaya di-hidupkan lesen pen- rusi, saya di-samping mengalu2kan jual chandu dalam tanah ayer kita ini anggaran yang di-minta oleh Kemente- sa-bagaimana yang telah di-buat oleh rian ini, saya ingin menyentoh sadikit sa-tengah2 negeri yang lain. Sekian-lah, sahaja dalam S. 24, Pechahan-kepala terima kaseh, Dato' Pengerusi. 32—Perkhidmatan Rahsia. Menurut hemat saya, dalam Pechahan-kepala Dr Mahathir bin Mohamed (Kota ini, ada-lah terkandong ia-lah usaha Star Selatan): Tuan Pengerusi, saya informer atau pengintip kemasokan ingin berchakap sadikit di-bawah chandu ka-dalam negeri ini. Kemasok- Head S. 29 ia-itu berkenaan dengan an chandu dalam negeri ini memang Hasil Dalam Negeri. Saya ingin mem- menurut hemat saya, telah di-usahakan bawa perhatian Menteri Yang Berhor- oleh kaum2 kapitalist, sama ada yang mat kapada satu perkara yang mana dalam negeri ini, atau pun luar negeri saya telah pun membuat soalan bagi ini. Saya berbangga juga atas usaha jawab sa-chara bertulis pada "session" yang telah di-jalankan oleh Pegawai2 yang lepas ia-itu berkenaan dengan Kastam kita bagi menchegah penye- orang2 Islam yang mana ada lebeh ludupan ini, tetapi kejadian ini berlan- daripada sa-orang isteri yang bekerja jutan dari satu masa ka-satu masa. dan ada pendapatan sendiri. Dato' Pengerusi, bila di-sebut pe- Saya telah mendapat rayuan dari­ nyeludupan chandu ini bukan sahaja pada sa-orang yang bekerja di-dalam chandu di-seludupkan ka-dalam tanah Pejabat Kerajaan juga, ia-itu dia-nya ayer kita ini, tetapi ada pemasaran di- 2 2 2 2 ada dua orang isteri dan kedua isteri- bandar , pekan , di-kampong menye- nya ini bekerja dan ada pendapatan te­ wakan chandu itu supaya di-hisap oleh 2 tapi Pejabat Hasil Dalam Negeri men- orang ramai dan kadang orang ramai sifatkan isteri yang kedua itu sa-bagai menjadi hingga satu ketagehan berhu- isteri yang pertama juga masa me- bong dengan chandu. Ini bukan sahaja 2 2 masokkan pendapatan-nya dalam kira orang yang bukan bangsa Melayu, chukai pendapatan. Elaun yang di-beri termasok orang2 Melayu, kadang2 dia 2 kapada isteri yang kedua itu chuma kata chandu itu boleh buat ubat. Dia sa-banyak $500 ia-itu isteri yang kedua kena beli, kalau dia tidak beli chandu, itu di-anggap oleh Pejabat Hasil dia beli tahi chandu. Jadi saya kata Dalam Negeri ini sa-bagai sa-tengah perkembangan chandu dalam tanah sahaja daripada isteri nombor satu. ayer kita ini sudah merebak. Perkara ini nampak-nya kurang-lah Wal-hal Kerajaan kita telah me- patut, oleh kerana ini membawa kapada nutup perniagaan menjual chandu kerugian kapada isteri yang kedua dan dalam negeri ini dengan memikirkan juga kapada suami yang ada dua isteri dari beberapa segi, terutama kesihatan ini, kalau-lah dia ada lebeh daripada ra'ayat negeri ini. Saya juga ingin, dua. Saya belum tahu lagi banyak Dato' Pengerusi, ingin dapat tahu mana yang di-kira, barangkali ada-lah chandu2 yang telah kita rampas oleh dia punya tingkatan yang turun-naik, Jabatan Kastam itu, apa-kah yang kita saperti juga elaun yang di-beri ka­ buat kapada chandu itu? Oleh itu, pada anak. Jawapan daripada Kemen­ saya mengharapkan Kementerian ini terian ia-lah kalau kita beri elaun sa- supaya berusaha lebeh kemas dan tegas penoh-nya kapada isteri yang kedua, lagi bagi menchegah penyeludupan yang ketiga, yang keempat, maka chandu dalam tanah ayer kita ini ini akan membawa kerugian yang supaya benar2 dapat di-hapuskan. lebeh kapada Kerajaan dengan kerana Kira-nya kalau dengan keadaan seka- bukan sahaja orang Islam yang ada rang, maka ada golongan yang menjadi lebeh daripada sa-orang isteri, tetapi jutawan2, yang jadi kaya raya dengan orang yang bukan Islam juga ada yang sebab chandu ini. Kira-nya Kerajaan lebeh daripada sa-orang isteri. tidak berjaya mengatasi kejadian ini, Tetapi saya perchaya orang yang saya merayu-lah kapada Yang Berhor- bukan Islam ada yang sa-tengah-nya 4841 6 DECEMBER 1965 4842 tidak payah kahwin, dia chuma tinggal orang yang kahwin dengan orang yang bersama2 sahaja. Jadi sunggoh pun bekerja, tetapi kalau suka boleh-lah hidup-nya sa-bagai suami isteri, tetapi suroh Kerajaan pinda Undang2 ini. Ini- dapat-lah untok kegunaan Hasil lah saya membuat rayuan supaya Dalam Negeri ini dia lari diri-nya Kerajaan meminda Undang2 yang sa- daripada memasokkan pendapatan macham ini. Terima kaseh. isteri yang nombor dua, tiga, empat, lima, enam, dan sa-bagai-nya di-dalam Mr Chairman: Saya hendak tanya pendapatan suami dan dengan chara itu berapa lama lagi hendak berchakap, dia dapat-lah bayar kurang chukai dan sebab jawapan juga dapat elaun yang penoh, ia-itu isteri yang nombor dua yang tidak Dato' Haji Mustapha bin Abdul termasok, yang tidak berkahwin Jabar (Sabak Bernam): Dalam tiga dengan-nya itu dapat $2,000 elaun sa- minit. Dato' Pengerusi, saya bersama2 perti isteri yang tidak berkahwin dan menyokong Anggaran Perbelanjaan ini. pendapatan-nya juga tidak di-masok- Di-sini saya masok Kepala S. 23, muka kan sa-kali dengan pendapatan suami 255 ia-itu berkenaan Timbalan Setia- dan dengan chara itu kurang-lah chu­ usaha Perbendaharaan. Dato' Penge­ kai yang di-kenakan kapada dia. Jadi rusi, di-sini saya hendak berchakap ini satu perkara yang saya fikir tidak satu perkara sahaja ia-itu perkara yang patut. Kalau Kerajaan beri elaun yang bersangkutan di-antara Kerajaan Negeri sa-penoh-nya kapada isteri yang kedua dengan Jabatan Perbendaharaan ini. itu, ini bukan-lah akan membawa ke- Saya dapat tahu daripada tahun 1963 rugian yang banyak kapada Kerajaan, dahulu, pehak Kerajaan Negeri Sela- tetapi akan menyenangkan sadikit ka­ ngor telah membuat satu chadangan pada isteri yang kedua. untok menaikkan gaji kadhi2 yang ada di-seluroh negeri Selangor. Jadi, oleh Satu lagi perkara yang saya ingin 2 membawa berkenaan dengan undang2 kerana kadhi itu jawatan dia ia-lah jawatan berpenchen—jawatan bersara, untok mengutip Hasil Dalam Negeri maka perlu-lah dan mustahak-lah ini ia-lah untok orang yang suami dan mendapat persetujuan daripada pehak isteri bekerja. Umpama-nya, kalau-lah Perbendaharaan Kerajaan Pusat ini. pada tahun 1965 sa-orang itu kahwin Tetapi malang-nya hingga-lah hari ini dengan sa-orang isteri yang bekerja belum lagi mendapat kelulusan dari­ maka assessment-nya yang di-buat pada pada Jabatan Perbendaharaan ini. tahun 1965 itu di-asaskan atas pen­ dapatan pada tahun 1964. Jadi untok Dato' Pengerusi, kedudokan di-atas assessment, di-kirakan saperti mana 2 orang ini telah berkahwin dalam tahun keadaan gaji kadhi di-dalam negeri Selangor ini, saya suka menyatakan 1964 tetapi untok elaun di-katakan 2 tidak kahwin lagi, jadi chuma dapat bahawa sangat menyedehkan jika kita bandingkan dengan gaji2 pegawai2 yang $2,000 sahaja elaun untok suami— 2 untok isteri tidak di-beri dengan kerana lain, sedangkan taraf kadhi di-dalam di-katakan pada tahun 1964 tahun negeri ini tidak ubah sa-bagai sa-orang yang mana di-asaskan anggaran itu hakim yang dudok di-dalam Mahkamah orang itu belum kahwin lagi. Jadi tidak Shara'iah. Dan sa-lain daripada taraf boleh di-bagi elaun, tetapi pendapatan hakim, biasa-nya kadhi2 di-daerah2 ini, orang yang belum kahwin ini di-kira bukan dia bekerja menjadi hakim untok saperti pendapatan suami isteri dan di- menghakim hal-ekhwal ugama Islam masokkan untok mengira—calcula­ di-daerah masing2, tetapi kadang2 juga tion—berkenaan dengan banyak mana kadhi2 ini terpaksa menerima bebanan chukai yang patut di-bayar. Perkara ini yang berat, ia-itu menanggong kadang2 sangat-lah pelek dan apabila saya orang yang lari daripada rumah, bertanya kapada Pegawai2 Hasil Dalam kerana hendak kahwin, tetapi wali-nya Negeri, saya di-beri tahu, ia-itu ini 2 tidak ada, terpaksa kadhi ini juga yang Undang Kerajaan bukan-lah mereka menanggong. Dan gaji yang di-dapati itu sahaja hendak menganiayakan pada masa ini tidak lebeh daripada 4843 6 DECEMBER 1965 4844

$310. Jadi gaji yang tidak lebeh dari- time again I have tried to explain the pada $310 ini, jika kita pandang dan reasons why we still retain the services kita bandingkan dengan jawatan2 Kera- of the Crown Agents, though in jaan yang lain di-dalam negeri ini, ada- decreasing measure year by year, and lah sangat2 rendah, dan ini juga kita yet those Members who have raised dapat melihat selalu keadaan kadhi2, this subject apparently refuse to under­ tetapi di-dalam negeri Selangor—saya stand, or have never understood, what tidak kata di-negeri lain, sebab saya I have been trying to say all these years. faham sangat dalam negeri Selangor I should like to emphasise once again ini, gaji sangat rendah, kita dapati that the Crown Agents have nothing kadhi2 ini bila hadhir di-majlis2 whatever to do with the British banyak yang datang dengan menaik Government, and this is literally true— basikal. Jadi ini sangat menyedehkan nothing whatever. In the second place, dan saya berharap sangat-lah kapada we only buy from the Crown Agents, Kementerian ini akan dapat kira-nya or we ask them to buy for us, when­ inenimbangkan dan meluluskan ber- ever it suits us to do so, i.e., whenever kenaan dengan kenaikan gaji kadhi2 the prices are right—that is, the di-dalam negeri Selangor ini, sa-bagai- cheapest—and when the quality is mana yang di-chadangkan oleh Kera- what we desire. Therefore, it pays to jaan Negeri Selangor. deal with the Crown Agents whenever we deal with them, because we do not Itu-lah sahaja, Tuan Pengerusi, yang always deal with them. In so far as is saya suka hendak mengambil bahagian possible, we in fact try to buy through dalam perkara ini. Terima kaseh. our own sources, either in Malaysia or overseas, but there are cases, and Mr Chairman: Persidangan ini saya there have been cases in the past and tempohkan sa-lama 15 minit. Apabila I think it will occur in the future, where kita bersidang sa-mula saya akan owing to the organisation at the dis­ menjemput Menteri yang berkenaan posal of the Crown Agents, where memberi jawab. through the resources at the disposal Persidangan di-tempohkan pada of the Crown Agents, it is profitable, pukul 12.00 in fact it is highly desirable, for us to deal through them. Honourable Mem­ Sitting resumed at 12.20 p.m. bers must remember that as a Govern­ ment, we have got many goods and (Mr Speaker in the Chair) many services which we require and House immediately resolved itself the Crown Agents as a result of their into Committee of Supply. vast experience, and their vast organi­ sation, can sometimes be of great value (Mr Speaker in the Chair) to us, but we make sure that we buy in the cheapest market and we also Debate resumed. make sure that the quality is right. The Minister of Finance (Enche' Tan Siew Sin): Mr Chairman, Sir, I The other point which Honourable shall now try to deal with the points Members must remember is that the which have been raised in this debate Crown Agents are our servants, not in the order in which they arose. our masters. We have issued instruc­ tions to them that they are to buy in The Honourable Member from the cheapest market. In other words, Kelantan Hilir referred again to the the purchases made for us by the subject of the Crown Agents. I think Crown Agents are not confined to it is unfortunate that this name is British goods. In fact, they buy from misleading and hence the misunder­ sources everywhere and quite often, in standing which has arisen. Of course, fact, they buy from non-British sources. in the first place, it is rather odd that It should also be noted that our pur­ this matter has been raised in this chases through the Crown Agents are House times without number. Time and decreasing year by year and this shows 4845 6 DECEMBER 1965 4846

that we are taking steps to rely more scheme I think on the whole has been heavily as the years go by on our own a success, because it has enabled all the resources. mines in this country to resume pro­ duction soon after the end of the War, The same Honourable Member also and as I have already said, the number referred to the Chinese tin mines . . . of mines which have not been able to repay through causes over which the Tuan Haji Ahmad bin Abdullah Government had no control is only a (Kelantan Hilir): Untok penjelasan, small proportion of the total amount Tuan Pengerusi, saya punya contention lent. bukan-lah kerana pertubohan ini bersangkut-paut dengan Kerajaan Bri­ The Honourable Member for tish, atau tidak. Saya punya argument Penang Utara asked that the languages bagini: Daripada kita membeli barang2 used in income tax forms should be itu melalui Crown Agents dan memberi those which are understood by the dan membayar komishen sa-banyak people as a whole. This practice of $750,000 lebeh baik-lah pembelian itu using both Malay and English I think melalui agents yang ada di-negeri ini is of fairly recent usage, whereas in the dan wang yang sa-banyak $750,000 itu past only English was used and I think akan memberi keuntongan kapada the position therefore today is rather warga negara di-sini. That is my better than it was, say, 10 years ago. contention. So, I do not think there should be any trouble on this score. In any case, any taxpayer who is not familiar with Enche' Tan Siew Sin: I am afraid the procedures or with the law can the Honourable Member has again always go to the Department of Inland misunderstood me. I was trying to tell Revenue and I have no doubt they him that in spite of the commission will do everything they can to help paid, we still buy in the cheapest any taxpayer who desires clarification market; and if today we do not pay either on the law or in regard to the to the Crown Agents, we will have got returns which he has to fill in. to pay to somebody else. But we make sure that the overall price paid by us Enche' Geh Chong Keat (Penang is the cheapest even though it may be Utara): On a point of clarification, Mr from the Crown Agents. Chairman—would the Honourable Minister consider a separate form or The same Honourable Member also an explanation sheet be included with referred to the Chinese Tin Mines the issue of the forms? Rehabilitation Scheme. As he himself may be aware, this scheme was started Enche' Tan Siew Sin: Yes, I am about 20 years ago, soon after the end prepared to consider that if that of the Second World War, in order to would serve this particular purpose. enable the Chinese tin mines to resume But I suggest that the Honourable production as a result of the stoppage Member might have a word with the of production during the war years. I Comptroller-General of Inland Revenue should also add that a similar scheme so that we would know exactly what was introduced for non-Chinese mines. he has in mind. Owing to the vastness of the scheme and owing to the fact that it had to The Honourable Member for be introduced in a hurry in order to Penang Utara has also referred to a get the tin mines going, it is, of non-medical insurance scheme. I am course, natural that there will be a not quite sure what he is referring to. number of mines which would not be My Insurance Commissioner is also a in a position to repay these loans, but bit mystified. But I have a suspicion that the amount lost is only a small propor­ he is referring to the growth of the new tion of what has been recovered. If the racket about which I have heard. But Honourable Member wishes, we can this, as far as I know, is not so much give the exact figures if he would care an insurance scheme; it is really a to write to the Treasury. But this gambling racket and as far as I can 4847 6 DECEMBER 1965 4848 gather, the idea of this scheme is that can, but you cannot obviously convict you should get something for nothing. on suspicion, and if you were to convict That, of course, is very natural, but on suspicion, I am sure the Honourable not I think a very realistic desire, be­ Members in this House themselves cause certainly in this world I think would protest. So, I suggest that they it is very difficult to get something for also persuade the public to be more nothing. It may be, of course, that in co-operative in future than they had the next world things might be rather been in the past. different, but I think for the moment we will confine ourselves to this world. Now, the Honourable Member for And if somebody wants to get some­ Penang Selatan protests against charges thing for nothing and takes a risk— for local telephone calls. We have well, I think you can sometimes, but discussed this matter at very great quite more often than not—you can length and I must admit that I have not expect to get your fingers burnt. had one good reason why this charge should not be imposed. After all, a Enche' Geh Chong Keat: Sir, on a telephone is not exactly an essential point of clarification, again—this requirement for a poor man. I think scheme is supposed to be a scheme we must all accept that if you can from a very renowned firm, American afford a telephone you should be able International Assurance Company, i.e., to afford to pay for it. In any case, we the A.I.A., which has a very big build­ can think of no more equitable way of ing in Kuala Lumpur which is a land paying for these charges than by means mark, and I am sure, it is not its of calls. Raising the rental is not the intention to deceive the people. How­ answer, because some of the very large ever, I think something has gone firms probably make a few hundred wrong with this scheme and its calls a day and some of the smaller administration. That is why I request businesses probably make only ten calls the Honourable Minister, through the a day. I, therefore, feel that any other Commissioner for Insurance, to study system apart from this is very cumber­ the whole thing, and if there is any­ some. In any case, the people of this thing wrong, I am sure it can be country can thank their lucky stars that corrected through this American Inter­ we have given a free allowance of 100 national Assurance, i.e., the A.I.A. calls a month. In most other countries you have to pay for every local call. I Enche' Tan Siew Sin: In that case, suggest that instead of protesting they Mr Chairman, Sir, I suggest that should pray to Allah and hope that he takes it up with the Insurance the allowance will not be reduced in Commissioner. We cannot deal with subsequent years. In any case, it is general cases and if he has got a totally unrealistic to ask for its re­ specific case and wishes to bring it to peal, and I should warn the House that our notice, I suggest he takes it up this levy stands whatever their re­ with the Insurance Commissioner. presentations. I would, therefore, sug­ gest to the Chambers of Commerce not He also speaks of corruption. Now, to waste their time and ours by send­ this is a very difficult subject. I my­ ing a protest, because every protest, I self—and this also applies to all my can assure Honourable Members, will colleagues—am very anxious to stamp go straight into the waste paper basket. out or reduce corruption in this country. In order to do so you require not only Enche' Geh Chong Keat: On a point the efforts of the Government but, I of clarification, Mr Chairman, Sir— think, you also require the co-operation on the introduction of the levy on the of the public, and I regret to say that telephone charges the Honourable very often that co-operation is not Minister mentioned that he was trying forthcoming. If you get two parties to to evolve a scheme to raise $5.3 this deal and both parties refuse to talk, million. Now, if an increase on a flat it is not so easy for the Government— rate of a substantial amount could the Government can do everything it prove that he could still obtain more 4849 6 DECEMBER 1965 4850 than $5.3 million, would the Honour­ cost of living in this country has re­ able Minister of Finance accept such mained stationary since 1954—in other recommendations ? words, for the last 11 years—and, therefore, that argument falls to the Enche' Tan Siew Sin: I have already ground. made it clear that I can think of no The Honourable Member for Johore fairer way of levying this charge and Bahru Barat suggests that we should this charge stays. have, I think, weekly pay or fortnightly Enche' Geh Chong Keat: From our pay. This, of course, is a' very interest­ system of calculating these charges we ing suggestion and I agree that it has got its merits but it also has? got its de­ are not merits. I am not quite sure what the Mr Chairman: The Honourable trade unionists have to say, but one Minister is not giving way, so you thing we are certain—that a switch to better sit down. the system of weekly pay, or fortnight­ ly pay, will certainly result in greatly Enche' Tan Siew Sin: I tried to tell increased costs for the Government, the Honourable Member that it is not and we therefore must make sure that practicable, because after all there are this system will have distinct advan­ many businesses in this country— tages, advantages which will more than some probably make about 500 calls outweigh the disadvantages, if we ever a day, some 49. How do you devise a decide to switch to this system. charge which can take those into The Honourable Member for Raub account. The only satisfactory way is has appealed for the reduction in the obviously to charge for every call licences given to a number of 3- above a certain number. digit lotteries in Raub on the ground that there are too many there already. The Honourable Member for Penang This is a very difficult question because Selatan also raised this point about the urge to gamble is I think allowances for additional wives in the matter of income tax. This question Enche' Hussein bin To' Muda again has been raised in this House, Hassan (Raub): Tuan Pengerusi, untok I think, times without number, and penjelasan. Tidak banyak di-Raub times without number I have replied hanya ada satu sahaja. Saya minta that if today you want more than Menteri Kewangan tarek balek lesen one wife, you have got to pay for it. itu kerana tidak ada memberi faedah It is as simple as all that (Laughter). kapada ra'ayat di-tempat itu sebab After all, by no stretch of the imagina­ makin susah nampak-nya. tion can you argue that it is completely essential for a man to have more than Enche' Tan Siew Sin: I mean the one wife. It is a distinct luxury—I urge to gamble is a very strong one, think it is not only a luxury but a very particularly among the members of my great pleasure (Laughter) and like all own community, and if you do not luxuries which are also very pleasur­ provide an outlet for them, I think, able, I think it is only fair for the they will find some other outlet which Government to say to them "If you is probably worse, illegal at the same can afford that pleasure, you might as time, and the Government will lose well pay for it." (Laughter). revenue to boot. I am not really sure With regard to pension increases, that one licence at Raub will do all Sir, this is a very difficult subject, but that damage but, as I said, if you do I believe the argument that pensions not allow that licence I am sure the should be raised is based on the pre­ people there will find some other means mise that the cost of living has risen to gamble, and the Government will in the past few years. Now, according lose revenue on top. to the figures at our disposal, and these He also quoted the case of the delay figures in fact have been quoted in in the payment of pensions to an ex- international financial publications, the Government officer who unfortunately 4851 6 DECEMBER 1965 4852 has had to undergo medical treatment. that these should be retained as exhibits. This is a very unfortunate case and if In any case, as he himself is well aware, he would bring the specific case to the smuggling is very rife and I do not notice of the Accountant-General, I am think we want to do anything which sure we will try to do something for would encourage people to smuggle. In him. If he fails, he can always bring it many cases these lorries are eventually up to me, but I agree this is a very confiscated and I, therefore, think that tragic case and I think we should try it is not desirable to raise the hopes to help. of these owners by returning these lorries to them—even temporarily. In The Honourable Member for Perlis any way, I think the psychological Selatan talks of smuggling across the effect would be disastrous. Thai/Malaysian border. I referred to this matter in my Budget speech in so The Honourable Enche' Ong Kee far as smuggling of rice is concerned, Hui has asked for an assurance that but I also stated in that speech that this preference would be given to Borneo is a very difficult matter to control. residents in the matter of Malayanisa- One must remember that this border— tion in the public service. I think that is the Thai/Malaysian border—is pro­ an assurance which I can give quite bably 600 miles long or more; and not readily because, all things being equal, only that, it is rugged, wild and un­ I think we will naturally give preference guarded and unless you station a to those of our citizens who are resi­ Customs officer at every hundred yard dents in the Borneo States. or so, I do not see how we can reduce smuggling there to any very great He suggests that the turnover tax extent. We are, of course, taking steps has caused a good deal of concern in to do what we can, but our efforts must Sarawak. As far as I know, every tax be very limited, in view of the handi­ has caused a good deal of concern in caps to which I have already referred. Sarawak to the businessmen and the only way, I think, to satisfy them is to repeal every tax which concerns them, In regard to his suggestion that which is not very practicable. goods confiscated should be auctioned locally, I am not sure that is a good The Honourable Member for Se- suggestion, because it is necessary, in berang Selatan talks about a four-year the first place, that there should be delay in assessing stamp duty. I must some control over this auction, and a admit that this sounds incredible to me. better control would be ensured if an However, if he can put up specific auction were to take place at a larger cases, we can see what can be done. I centre than a small town. It should am wondering whether it is really also be remembered that if the auction stamp duty or estate duty, because it were to be held in a larger town the should not take long to assess stamp chances are that the prices would be duty on any particular transaction. better because the goods would be offered to a larger circle of potential The Honourable Member for Kuala buyers, in which case, I think, the Kangsar suggests pension increases in Government is likely to score more view of the rising cost of living. I have than if such auction were to be dealt with this point already and so I held in a smaller town. Some of the do not wish to elaborate on this any towns in this country are far too small more. for satisfactory auctions to be held. The Honourable Member for Tan- jong suggests that the turn-over tax He suggests that lorries which are should be totally repealed. I would involved in smuggling should be suggest that he is living in a world of released to the owners on payment of his own, and if he wants to be realistic a bond. I do not think that is a practic­ I suggest he forgets about it altogether. able suggestion because, in the first Anyway, this has been discussed ad place, these are cases which normally nauseam I think, for the past year and go to court and it would be necessary certainly during this Budget debate. 4853 6 DECEMBER 1965 4854

He has picked up various items like request has been submitted, we have ex-gratia payments. They are clearly asked for further details and the reason, necessary because there are cases where of course, is quite simple. The State the Government has got to make pay­ Government has only asked for increa­ ments where these are not covered by ses for kathis, but it must be remem­ any existing law and where the justice bered that this matter cannot be looked of a case demands such a payment. at in isolation. Once you increase the salaries of kathis, you obviously create He also queries why it should be repercussions on the salaries of other necessary for us to pay pensions categories of officers in the Religious through the Indian Government. The Affairs Department, and it is, therefore, answer is quite simple. Although necessary to look at this problem as a we have a High Commission in India, whole, and hence we have asked for we do not have officers in every major further particulars because we cannot, town or major city in the Indian sub­ as I said, look at this matter in isola­ continent, and in such cases it has been tion. These particulars are still awaited necessary to enlist the assistance of the from the State Government of Selangor. Indian Government in making payments Secondly, I should point out that this to pensioners, for example. is not only a matter for the Treasury, He also asks why we should pay because salaries are also a matter for compensation for loss or damage to the Federation Establishment Office property. I should say that these pay­ and the Prime Minister's Department, ments are made, in the majority of and there must be a certain uniformity cases, to customs officers who lose their and there must also be a certain rela­ belongings when they go on anti- tionship between the salaries in the smuggling operations, and in such Religious Affairs Department and those cases I think it is only fair that the in the Government Departments as a Government should compensate them whole, and therefore this matter is more for any property lost or destroyed complicated than might appear on the through the actions of smugglers. surface. For this reason, I regret to say that it has not been possible to The Honourable Member for Muar come to a definite decision. In any Utara suggests that we should accept case, the ball is now at the feet of the the inevitable and license opium Selangor State Government. dealers in this country. I, in fact, have got considerable sympathy for his point Question put, and agreed to. of view but, unfortunately, the United The sums of $3,789,569 for Head Nations does not favour this sort of S. 23, $26,721,250 for Head S. 24; thing; and although I entirely agree with $63,200,000 for Head S. 25; $11,387,968 him that this is the only practicable for Head S. 26, $3,140,853 for Head and realistic way of looking at the S. 27; $223,047 for Head S. 28; subject, we are bound, I think, by the $5,467,886 for Head S. 29; and $879,445 rules of the United Nations and, there­ for Head S. 30 ordered to stand part of fore—I agree that this is a good solu­ the Schedule. tion—we are not able to adopt it. Head S. 32— The Honourable Members for Kota Star Selatan has referred to the desir­ The Minister of Health (Enche' ability of giving additional allowances Bahaman bin Samsudin): Tuan Penge- for those who have a plurality of wives. rusi saya bangun untok mengemukakan I have answered this point already, and Kepala S. 32 berjumlah $119,192,888 I need not refer to it again. ia-itu jumlah anggaran perbelanjaan Kementerian saya bagi tahun 1966. The Honourable Member for Sabak Jumlah yang di-peruntokkan bagi Bernam states that the Selangor State Kementerian saya dalam tahun 1966, Government has referred the question sa-kali pandang, menunjokkan kekura- of increases in pay for kathis to the ngan sa-banyak $1.87 juta daripada Treasury and is still awaiting an answer. jumlah tahun 1965. Tetapi, jika di- I am informed that although this semak dengan halus, maka Ahli2 Yang 4855 6 DECEMBER 1965 4856

Perbelanjaan Khas telah di-kurang- Berhormat akan dapat melihat ia-itu 2 2 di-bawah Perbelanjaan Khas, wang sa- kan sa-habis -nya. Pembelian alatan banyak $5.7 juta untok Store Dharurat yang tidak mengendalakan Perkhid­ Simpanan yang di-masokkan di-dalam matan telah di-tanggohkan kapada satu Anggaran Perbelanjaan tahun 1965, masa, bila keadaan negeri mengizin- tidak di-masokkan bagi tahun 1966. kan. Jika di-tolak angka $5.7 juta Dengan itu, maka nyata-lah peruntok­ yang di-peruntokkan tahun ini bagi an bagi tahun 1966 menunjokkan Store Dharurat Simpanan, maka jum­ kelebehan sa-banyak $3.82 juta. Tam- lah kekurangan di-bawah Perbelanjaan bahan2 perbelanjaan yang di-chadang- Khas ia-lah $1.16 juta. kan di-dalam Anggaran Perbelanjaan Sekarang saya suka menarek per- ini ada-lah terhad kapada perbelan­ 2 2 hatian Ahli Yang Berhormat kapada jaan yang mustahak sahaja. Menurut kemajuan2 yang telah di-perolehi di- dasar Kerajaan, supaya menjimat- dalam bidang kesehatan. Meninjau chermatkan perbelanjaan untok meng- 2 2 kapada kemajuan dalam tahun 1965, hadapi perbelanjaan kerana pertaha- saya suka menyatakan di-sini, ia-itu nan. Jika di-pereksa dengan halus kesehatan pendudok2, 'am-nya ada-lah Anggaran Perbelanjaan itu boleh-lah 2 bertambah baik. Ini dapat di-boktikan di-dapati, ia-itu peruntokan bagi gaji daripada angka2 kematian 'am dan telah bertambah sa-banyak $4.66 juta. 2 2 angka kematian kanak yang telah turun Ini ia-lah kerana kenaikan gaji bagi kapada angka yang sa-bagitu rendah pegawai2 yang ada dan juga untok 2 2 di-dalam tawarikh negara. Angka jawatan baharu. Jawatan baharu yang kematian seluroh-nya telah turun dari­ di-masokkan di-dalam Anggaran Per­ pada 8.9 pada tiap2 1,000 orang pen­ belanjaan ia-lah berjumlah 1,987 dudok bagi tahun 1963 kapada 8.1 ia-itu 1,875 untok negeri2 di-Malaya dalam tahun 1964. Angka kematian dan 112 untok negeri Sarawak. Tam- kanak2 telah turun dengan banyak, bahan2 ini ada-lah mustahak menurut ia-itu daripada 57 bagi tiap2 1,000 perkembangan Perkhidmatan Perubatan orang kanak2 yang di-lahirkan dalam dan Kesehatan. Di-antara jawatan2 yang tahun 1963 kapada 48 bagi tahun 1964. baharu, ia-lah "A": Pegawai2 Per­ Saya suka menarek perhatian Dewan ubatan dan Pergigian—negeri2 Malaya ini ia-itu ini-lah kali yang kedua-nya 21, Sarawak 2. Ahli2 Kimia Peru­ kejatohan yang sa-besar ini telah ber- batan—negeri2 Malaya 4, Sarawak laku. Sayugia juga di-ingatkan ia-itu 1. Juru-rawat dan Penolong Juru- angka kematian bagi kanak2 di-dalam rawat—berbagai2 perengkat—negeri2 kawasan luar bandar pun bagitu juga telah turun dengan banyak-nya. Ini Malaya 633, Sarawak 64, "D"— 2 Merinyu2 Kesehatan Umum berbagai2 menunjokkan yang segala ranchangan 2 kesehatan yang di-jalankan di-dalam peringkat—negeri Malaya 26, Sara­ 2 wak ta' ada. "E", Pembantu Rumah kawasan luar bandar telah memberi 2 2 kesan yang besar. Bagitu juga di- Sakit berbagai peringkat—negeri 2 Malaya 110, Sarawak ta' ada. Bidan— negeri Sarawak angka kematian berbagai2 peringkat—negeri2 Malaya saperti yang di-nyatakan tadi, makin 210, Sarawak ta' ada. Di-bawah Lain2 turun dari masa ka-masa. 2 Perbelanjaan Berulang Tiap Tahun Negeri2 di-Malaya telah terlepas ada menunjokkan tambahan sa-banyak daripada penyakit2 berjangkit yang $332,880 ia-itu satu jumlah yang merbahaya, kechuali sa-orang sahaja kechil untok perbelanjaan2 yang 2 yang telah di-laporkan terkena penya­ mustahak. Potongan telah di-perbuat kit ta'un di-Kuala Lumpur pada 2 di-bawah beberapa butiran perbelan­ 2 haribulan ini. Di-negeri Sarawak, jaan di-mana potongan dapat di- penyakit ta'un telah berlaku di-dalam perbuat dengan tidak mengendalakan 2 bulan Jun hingga bulan Oktober Perkhidmatan Perubatan. Kemen- tahun ini—di-daerah Kapit dan Lim- terian ini akan membelanjakan dengan bang. 15 orang telah terkena penyakit sa-berapa jimat dan chermat di-mana ini, sa-orang daripada-nya mati, tetapi, yang boleh, supaya tidak melebehi sekarang ini, semua kawasan2 ini telah peruntokan2. terlepas daripada penyakit itu. 4857 6 DECEMBER 1965 4858

Penyakit Malaria yang menyebab- pada angka ini lebeh kurang 25,000 kan banyak kematian dan mengganggu orang telah menunjokkan ada kesan2 kesehatan pendudok di-kawasan luar penyakit T.B. Dukachita saya menya- bandar ada-lah sedang di-chegahkan. takan di-sini, ia-itu sambutan daripada Satu ranchangan awal bagi menchegah mereka2 yang di-dapati ada kesan2 penyakit malaria ini sedang di-jalan­ penyakit itu tidak sa-bagitu memuas- kan di-seluroh negeri oleh pakar2 kan hati oleh kebanyakan-nya tidak daripada Pertubohan Kesehatan Sa- hendak datang balek untok di-siasat dunia. Langkah2 yang di-jalankan lagi dan di-ubati. Saya suka menyeru sekarang ini ia-lah menyiasat kawasan2 kapada mereka2 yang di-kehendaki itu, malaria, dan nyamok2 yang membawa datang sa-mula untok di-siasat dengan penyakit itu, dan juga perkhidmatan tidak berlengah lagi. yang sedang di-jalankan di-dalam tiap2 negeri di-Malaya. Apabila siasa- Dari semenjak tahun 1961, satu juta kanak2 dan orang2 yang di-shaki telah tan ini telah siap pada akhir tahun 2 1966, maka satu ranchangan akan di- berdamping dengan orang yang sediakan untok menjalankan tindakan mengidap penyakit T.B. telah di-beri suntekan B.C.G. Daripada jumlah ihi, yang sesuai bagi menghapuskan 2 malaria sama-sa-kali. 400,000 ia-lah kanak yang baharu lahir. Di-dalam negeri Sarawak, ran­ Di-dalam negeri Sarawak, Ran­ changan mengawal penyakit T.B. telah di-jalankan dengan baik. Dan ran­ changan Menghapuskan Malaria dengan 2 bantuan2 Pertubohan Kesehatan Sa- changan yang di-mulakan di-Kuching dunia dan UNICEF Kumpulan dan di-Sibu telah di-panjangkan ka- Wang Pendidek Kanak2 Antara-bangsa, Simanggang dan Miri. Kerajaan Bangsa2 Bersatu, telah bergerak dengan Australia, melalui Colombo Plan dan maju-nya, dan sa-takat ini boleh-lah Pertubohan Kesehatan Sa-dunia, se­ dang memberi bantuan2 di-dalam di-katakan 15 peratus daripada pen­ 2 2 dudok2 di-situ ada-lah dudok di-dalam ranchangan ini bagi negeri Malaya kawasan yang terlepas sama sa-kali dan Sarawak. 2 daripada penyakit malaria. Langkah Penyakit Puru yang pada satu masa yang hebat ada-lah di-jalankan di- 2 dahulu telah merebak di-dalam dalam kawasan yang lain. kawasan2 luar bandar, sudah tidak ada Ranchangan bagi membasmikan lagi menjadi masaalah kesehatan, dan tidak berapa lama lagi penyakit ini penyakit T.B. daripada menjadi satu akan dapat di-hapuskan sama sa-kali, masaalah kesehatan, ada-lah berjalan chuma beberapa kawasan sahaja di- dengan baik-nya. Perengkat awal bagi 2 dalam negeri Perak dan Kedah yang ranchangan itu, ia-itu melateh kaki - maseh di-uruskan. Demikian juga tangan, yang di-kehendaki untok men­ kawalan penyakit untut, telah di- jalankan ranchangan itu telah di- perhebat dan ada-lah menjadi dasar perbuat dengan berjaya. Dan sa-banyak Kementerian saya bagi mengawal 1,100 orang pegawai2 perubatan dan 2 2 penyakit ini sa-hingga penyakit ini lain telah di-lateh di-dalam berbagai tidak lagi menjadi satu masaalah bidang pekerjaan malawan penyakit kesehatan. T.B. Ranchangan ini telah bergerak kapada peringkat yang kedua, ia-itu Di-dalam negeri Sarawak penyakit peringkat serangan. Di-dalam peringkat puru tidak lagi menjadi masaalah dari ini, langkah2 bagi membela orang2 semenjak tahun 1956. Langkah bagi yang mengidap panyakit itu telah di- menchegah penyakit berjangkit saperti jalankan dengan X-ray beramai2 bagi chachar, penyakit kerongkong dan seluroh pendudok2 yang berumor 15 penyakit tetarus penyakit batok bagi tahun ka-atas dan memberi ubat untok kanak2 di-jalankan di-merata2 Dispen­ mengelakkan daripada terkena penya­ sary, Pusat2 Kesehatan dan Kelinik2 kit itu kapada puak2 yang boleh di- di-merata di-dalam negeri Malaya dan pelihara daripada penyakit itu dengan Sarawak. Dengan kembali-nya sa-orang jalan suntekan B.C.G. Di-dalam lang­ pegawai yang telah di-hantar ka-negeri kah ini, lebeh daripada 600,000 orang Amerika mempelajari khas-nya dalam telah di-pereksa dengan X-ray. Dari­ pelajaran2 kesehatan umum, maka 4859 6 DECEMBER 1965 4860 langkah2 akan di-jalankan bagi mem- kawasan2 luar bandar. Dengan ber- perhebatkan ranchangan2 pelajaran tambah-nya kemudahan2 dan orang2 kesehatan di-negeri2 ini. yang datang berubat, maka jumlah mereka2 yang datang ka-pusat2 kesi­ Mr Chairman: Persidangan ini di- hatan dan kelinik2 telah meningkat tempoh hmgga pukul empat petang ini. tinggi. Ahli2 Yang Berhormat tentu suka mendapat ketahui tentang angka2 Sitting suspended at 1.00 p.m. 2 ini. Sekarang saya bachakan angka itu. Sitting resumed at 4 p.m. Jumlah2 mereka2 yang datang ka- (Mr Speaker in the Chair) Pusat2 Kesihatan dan Kelinik tahun 1960, 1,808,796. Tahun 1964, 2.551,308 THE SUPPLY BILL, 1966 tambahan 41%. Jumlah mereka2 yang 2 House immediately resolved itself berubat di-dispensary yang tetap dan into Committee of Supply. yang bergerak bagi tahun 1960, 3,219,873. Tahun 1964, 4,179,149 2 (Mr Speaker in the Chair) rambahan 30%. Lawatan ka-rumah oleh kaki-tangan kesihatan tahun 1960, SCHEDULE 483,073. Tahun 1964, 1,292,164 tam­ Head S. 32— bahan 53%. Di-dalam negeri Sarawak kelinik2 kesihatan ibu2 dan kanak2 yang The Minister of Health (Enche' di-jalankan oleh Kerajaan telah di- Bahaman bin Samsudin): Tuan Penge- serahkan kapada pehak yang berkuasa rusi, saya sambong uchapan saya. 2 tempatan, kechuali sa-buah kelinik Langkah sedang di-ambil untok me- bidan yang di-tempatkan di-Kuching lancharkan Ranchangan Kebersehan dan bertugas di-dalam kawasan2 luar Rumah Tangga dan Kampong Hala- bandar di-sakeliling Ibu2 Kota itu. Dua man khas-nya berkenaan dengan Per- 2 dispensary yang dahulu-nya di-jalan­ bekalan Ayer di-kawasan luar bandar kan di-bawah Ranchangan Kemajuan sa-telah ranchangan itu siap di-sedia- kan. Pertubohan Kesihatan Sa-dunai Luar Bandar telah di-ambil aleh oleh telah menghantarkan sa-orang Jurutera pejabat perubatan dan lima buah dis­ pensary baharu telah siap dan sedang Kesihatan Umum dan sa-orang Pakar 2 Kebersehan Rumah Tangga dan menjalankan tugas -nya. Kesemua sa- Kampong Halaman bagi membantu kali ada 35 buah dispensary yang Kementerian saya mengadakan ran­ mempunyai' 243 katil rest bed. changan yang sesuai. Kejayaan besar Ranchangan Home-health ia-itu satu telah di-perolehi di-dalam usaha meng­ ranchangan di-mana pekerja2 sukarela adakan perkhidmatan perubatan dan 2 2 yang di-pileh oleh ketua kampong kesihatan kapada pendudok luar atau pun ketua2 rumah panjang, atau bandar, yang pada masa dahulu-nya pegawai pentadbiran di-hantar belajar tersangat-lah kurang, atau pun tidak di-dalam pertulongan chemas dan di- ada langsong. Sa-hingga ini 39 buah dalam perkara mengubat penyakit2 Pusat Kesihatan Besar, 113 buah Pusat yang ringan2. Ranchangan ini yang di- Kesihatan Kechil dan 585 buah Kelinik mulakan dalam tahun 1964 telah ber- Bidan telah siap dan memberi perkhid­ jaya, sa-bagai membantu perkhidmatan matan. Lagi 27 buah Pusat Kesihatan perubatan di-dalam kawasan2 luar Kechil dan 86 buah Kelinik Bidan bandar. Mereka2 itu di-beri dengan satu sedang di-bena, dan di-jangka akan kotak ubat2 dan lain2 untok pertulongan siap dalam bulan Disember tahun ini chemas dan pekerjaan2 mereka itu atau pun awal tahun 1966. Jumlah 2 2 ada-lah di-kelolakan oleh Pembantu perbelanjaan bagi ranchangan ini Rumah Sakit yang kanan dan semua-nya ada-lah lebeh kurang $35.5 Pegawai2 Perubatan. juta. Pada masa ini sa-jumlah 294 Home- Sa-lain daripada itu ada 282 dispen­ health telah di-tubohkan di-dalam sary yang tetap dan 155 dispensary2 semua bahagian2 di-dalam negeri Sara­ yang bergerak yang bertempat di- wak. Perkhidmatan2 perubatan pun 4861 6 DECEMBER 1965 4862 telah di-perluaskan di-dalam beberapa mengembangkan perkhidmatan2 per­ tahun yang lepas supaya dapat mem- ubatan. Rumah sakit baharu di- beri perkhidmatan yang lebeh kapada Tanjong Karang yang mempunyai 70 pendudok2 yang berhajat kapada per- buah katil telah siap dengan per- ubatan di-dalam rumah2 sakit. Jumlah belanjaan 2,000,000 dan rumah sakit bilangan katil2 di-dalam negeri2 di- baharu bagi Dungun yang mempunyai Malaya telah naik daripada 21,102 di- 50 buah katil dan yang memakan dalam tahun 1960, kapada 25,665 belanja sa-banyak $1.5 juta hampir2 dalam tahun 1965, ia-itu tambahan sa- akan siap. Pembenaan rumah sakit banyak 22%. Angka2 yang benkut me- latehan di-University di-Petaling Jaya nunjokkan bertambah-nya orang2 yang yang di-jangka akan mempunyai 756 datang berubat ka-rumah sakit di- buah kadi telah berjalan dengan seluroh negeri. Jumlah yang masok ber­ sempurna-nya dan ada-lah di-jangka ubat ka-rumah sakit tahun 1960, rumah sakit ini akan siap dalam tahun 300,385. Tahun 1964 408,477 tambahan 1966; dan persediaan-nya telah pun di- 32%. Mereka2 yang datang berubat, uruskan supaya rumah ini dapat di- tetapi tidak di-masokkan ka-dalam gunakan oleh penuntut2 kedoktoran rumah sakit tahun 1960 4,296,015. pada awal tahun 1966. Persediaan tapak Tahun 1964 5,902,983 tambahan 37%. bagi rumah sakit baharu Kuala Lum­ pur telah pun siap. Pekerjaan untok Di-dalam negeri Sarawak ada enam membena peringkat yang pertama, ia- buah rumah sakit Kerajaan yang itu yang mengandongi ward2 yang mempunyai katil sa-banyak 1,005. Sa- mempunyai 512 katil bahagian Radio­ lain daripada ini ada lagi eram buah therapy yang mengandongi 60 buah rumah sakit yang di-kelolakan oleh 2 2 katil asrama jururawat dan lain akan pertubohan ugama dan rumah sakit di-mulakan tidak berapa lama lagi. ini mempunyai katil sa-banyak 143 buah; kebanyakkan-nya ia-lah untok Jumlah perbelanjaan untok peringkat penyakit orang2 perempuan. Kelinik2 ini ia-lah lebeh kurang $22.2 juta. pergigian telah bertambah daripada 146 Persediaan tapak untok rumah sakit buah di-dalam tahun 1960 kapada 287 baharu di-Seremban yang mempunyai 720 buah katil telah siap dan peker­ buah di-dalam tahun 1964, ia-itu tam­ 2 2 bahan sa-banyak 96% dan jumlah jaan membenakan ward dan lain orang2 yang datang berubat di-kelinik2 akan di-mulakan tidak berapa lama itu telah bertambah juga daripada lagi. Ranchangan ini akan memakan 635,140 dalam tahun 1960 kapada belanja sa-banyak $18,000,000. Tender 928,118 dalam tahun 1964, ia-itu atau pun tawaran untok mendirikan tambahan sa-banyak 46%. Tambahan2 ward kelas satu yang akan mengan­ bagi angka2 orang2 yang datang ber­ dongi 72 buah katil dan satu ward ubat di-pusat2 kesihatan, di-kelinik2 beranak yang akan mengandongi 28 pergigian2, dispensary2 dan rumah2 buah katil di-Rumah Sakit Umum, sakit ada-lah menunjokkan ia-itu Ipoh telah di-terima dan pekerjaan pendudok2 telah sedar di-atas ke- akan di-mulakan tidak beberapa lama wajipan menjaga kesihatan, dan dengan lagi. Ranchangan ini akan memakan sebab itu tuntutan2 bagi mengadakan belanja lebeh kurang $1.2 juta. Ran­ perkhidmatan2 kesihatan dan perubatan changan bagi menggantikan rumah sakit umum di-Ipoh terpaksa di-buat sentiasa-lah bertambah. Kerajaan de­ 2 ngan sa-berapa daya upaya akan meng­ dengan beransor menurut keadaan adakan kemudahan2 ini, akan tetapi kewangan. 2 sa-bagaimana Ahli Yang Berhormat 2 2 Berbagai pindaan dan perubahan ketahui wang yang banyak ada-lah di- telah di-perbuat di-dalam tahun ini kehendaki untok pertahanan negara 2 2 bagi rumah sakit yang ada sa- dan dengan sebab itu ranchangan yang umpama-nya mengadakan ward2 yang kurang mustahak terpaksa di-tanggoh- baharu, meluaskan atau membesarkan kan sa-hingga keadaan kewangan ward2 yang ada, membaiki perkhid­ negara bertambah baik. matan2 pesakit2 luar dan dispensary, Walau pun bagitu tindakan yang bilek2 pembelahan dan lain2. Cha- tegas telah di-ambil dalam usaha dangan hendak mendirikan sa-buah 4863 6 DECEMBER 1965 4864 rumah sakit yang mengandongi 50 pada universiti2 luar negeri, di-terima buah katil untok Changkat Melintang, dengan tangan terbuka, dan langkah Perak, dan lain2 lagi terpaksa di-tang- sedang di-jalankan supaya undang2 gohkan kapada Ranchangan P'emba- pendaftaran doktor2 di-pinda supaya ngunan Malaysia Yang Pertama 1966- mereka itu boleh di-daftarkan dengan 1970. Oleh sebab kekurangan wang, sa-penoh-nya dan berkhidmat di-dalam dan yang lebeh mustahak lagi ia-lah negeri ini. kekurangan kaki2-tangan yang terlateh. Dengan memandang kapada banyak- Perkembangan perkhidmatan dan nya mereka2 yang datang mendapat kemudahan2 perubatan dan kesihatan perubatan di-rumah2 sakit Kerajaan, di-dalam kawasan2 di-luar bandar dan maka Kerajaan telah meluluskan satu di-bandar2 berkehendakan tambahan ranchangan di-mana doktor2 luar dari­ kaki-tangan2 kesihatan dan perubatan. pada Kerajaan akan di-pelawa memberi Di-dalam masa yang lepas, walau pun sadikit masa-nya untok membantu kaki-tangan itu kurang, akan tetapi doktor2 Kerajaan dengan jalan bekerja mereka telah menjalankan tugas beberapa jam sa-hari, dengan bayaran masing2, walau pun terpaksa menjalan­ $25 sa-masa 2 jam, dan tidak melebehi kan pekerjaan2 dengan lebeh banyak $400 pada sa-bulan. Saya ketahui dan berat. Kepujian patut-lah di-beri doktor2 ia-lah orang2 yang berhemah kapada mereka itu yang telah memikul tinggi di-dalam pekerjaan menolong tanggongan2 ini dengan seberapa daya orang2 yang sakit—dedicated people. upaya mereka itu untok memuaskan Dan oleh sebab itu saya menaroh kehendak2 ra'ayat masa sekarang ini, harapan yang tinggi supaya banyak walau pun terkena bekerja lebeh daripada mereka itu akan menyambut banyak dan berat oleh sebab keku­ seruan Kerajaan ini bagi kepentingan rangan kaki-tangan. negara. 2 Ahli Yang Berhormat tentu-lah Kerajaan selalu mengambil berat hendak mengetahu'i apa-kah ran­ tentang kesihatan 'am dan supaya changan Kementerian saya untok menggalakkan banyak lagi doktor2 mengatasi kekurangan2 ini khas-nya 2 mengambil bahagian dan kelulusan kekurangan doktor. Sa-bagaimana dalam lapangan kesihatan umum dan Ahli2 Yang Berhormat sedia ma'alum, 2 Kerajaan telah bersetuju membayar ia-itu kebanyakan doktor yang elaun yang dengan tidak berpenchen memohon bekerja dengan Kerajaan, sa-banyak $350 sa-bulan kapada datang daripada University Singapura, doktor2 yang mempunyai kelulusan di-mana lebeh kurang 60 orang dari­ khas di-dalam bahagian kesihatan pada 100 orang doktor yang tamat umum, dan lagi bagi doktor2 yang pengajian-nya masok bekerja dengan tidak ada mempunyai kelulusan itu Kerajaan ini. Masaalah bagi menam- 2 tetapi yang di-istiharkan menurut bahkan pengeluaran doktor telah di- undang2 sa-bagai menjalankan peker­ uruskan dengan tertuboh-nya Jurusan jaan kesihatan umum, mereka akan Perubatan di-University Malaya, di- juga di-bayar elaun sa-banyak $175 sa- Kuala Lumpur, akan tetapi penge­ bulan. Suatu Jawatan-kuasa Khas luaran yang pertama ia-itu mengan­ sedang menyemak perengkat2 tertinggi dongi 40 orang doktor chuma dapat di-dalam jawatan pentadbiran per­ berkhidmatan di-dalam tahun 1967 ubatan dan jawatan2 pakar dalam hingga 1969. Sementara itu, Kerajaan Kementerian saya dengan tujuan me- telah mengambil 40 orang doktor dari­ minda tingkatan2 tertinggi bagi pada Korea Selatan dan mereka itu jawatan2 itu supaya bersaimbangan berchadang akan sampai ka-sini sa- dengan tugas2 dan tanggongan2 mereka belum akhir tahun ini—saya dapat itu. tahu bulan Disember ini satu kum- pulan dan bulan Januari, lagi satu Ahli2 Yang Berhormat barangkali kumpulan. Usaha sedang di-buat juga ingat Kementerian saya telah melan- untok mengambil doktor2 daripada charkan ranchangan latehan bagi kaki- lain2 negeri. Doktor2 daripada ra'ayat tangan2 perubatan dan kesihatan pada Malaysia yang mempunyai ijazah dari­ tahun yang lepas. Sekarang ini tidak 4865 6 DECEMBER 1965 4866

kurang daripada 250 jururawat 180 Walau pun tambahan perbelanjaan bidan dan 200 penolong jururawat telah bagi Kementerian saya bagi tahun 1966 terlateh tiap2 tahun. Sa-lain daripada itu tidak banyak, pegawai2 dan kaki- itu, Kerajaan telah dapat mengeluarkan tangan2 Kementerian saya akan ber- beberapa banyak Pembantu rumah sunggoh2 berikhtiar bagi menjalankan sakit, juru2 X-ray, merinyu kesihatan tugas2 mereka itu dengan sa-penoh-nya umum, penyelia kesihatan umum, pem- dan memenohkan kehendak2 orang banchoh ubat, juru gigi, juru teknik ramai di-atas perkhidmatan2 itu. Saya gigi dan pembantu ma'amal daripada harap Ahli2 Yang Berhormat akan beberapa buah sekolah2 dan pusat2 faham dan sedar ia-itu jika sadikit sa- latehan yang telah di-tubohkan. De­ banyak perubahan daripada chara2 ngan ada-nya keadaan yang sa-bagai yang biasa, atau pun penanggohan sa- ini maka kekurangan kaki-tangan di- tengah2 ranchangan yang sangat2 di- dalam lapangan perubatan dan kesi­ idami oleh sa-tengah Ahli2 Yang Ber­ hatan, beransor baik dari satu masa hormat semua-nya ini ia-lah terpaksa ka-satu masa. Di-dalam negeri Sarawak di-perbuat dengan memandang kapada ranchangan latehan telah juga di- keadaan kewangan dan keadaan di- perhebatkan dan dalam masa yang dalam negeri pada masa ini. tertentu, maka kekurangan2 yang ada sekarang ini dapat-lah di-atasi. Tuan Pengerusi, saya mengemukakan Anggaran Perbelanjaan Kementerian Saya hendak menyebutkan juga di- Kesihatan berjumlah $119,192,888 di- sini ia-itu Kementerian saya telah bawah Kepala S. 32 di-jadikan sa- menerima berbagai2 aduan daripada bahagian daripada Jadual. orang ramai tentang perkhidmatan Dr Mahathir bin Mohamad (Kota kaki-tangan2 Kementerian ini dan 2 2 Star Selatan): Mr Chairman, Sir, I layanan di-rumah sakit. Sa-telah di- rise to support the estimates made by siasat maka di-dapati kebanyakan 2 the Minister for Health in this year's daripada aduan itu ia-lah terbit dari­ Budget. I hesitate to criticise the pada salah sangka berkenaan dengan 2 Ministry of Health, because I know hal yang berlaku. Maka supaya most of the criticisms that I make now memperiratkan perhubongan di-antara 2 2 will be criticisms which we have kaki-tangan Kerajaan dan orang already heard in this Chamber and out­ ramai tempatan, Kementerian saya side, and I also know the answers that telah menubohkan Jawatan-kuasa I am likely to get. But, nevertheless, Muhibbah, boleh di-katakan di-tiap2 2 Sir, I feel that these things must be rumah sakit di-seluroh negeri Malaya voiced again and again, and again and ini. Langkah ini nampak-nya telah 2 again, in this House and outside, so memberi kejayaan dan aduan sekarang that something could at least be done ini telah berkurangan. about them, if not in the near future, at least at later time. Kementerian ini tidak juga sunyi daripada mengadakan ikhtiar2 yang This Ministry, in my experience, has lain bagi membaiki perhubongan di- been a very secretive Ministry and has antara orang ramai dengan kaki- not been very co-operative in giving tangan2 Kerajaan, dengan jalan mem­ information on various matters. As an beri Kursus latehan kapada kaki- example, Sir, I would like to quote that tangan2 Kerajaan di-dalam chara ber- last year I made a request personally baik2 di-antara mereka itu dengan to the State Medical and Health Officer orang ramai. Kementerian saya telah about the number of midwives to be menerima bantuan2 yang berharga found in my own constituency. I was sa-umpama pakar2, alatan2 dan told to write in officially, which I did, biasiswa2 daripada berbagai2 pertu- and I was surprised that it took them bohan sa-dunia dan daripada negeri2 a month to decide to tell me how many sahabat dan saya suka mengambil midwives there are in my constituency, peluang ini menguchapkan penghargaan because this is regarded as something terima kaseh saya di-atas bantuan2 sacred and secret and should not be mereka itu. divulged to ordinary Members of 4867 6 DECEMBER 1965 4868

Parliament but must first be approved called two or three times a night, so by the Ministry. Similarly, Sir, on the that for weeks and months he may have question of a conference on malaria, to be working almost continuously. which was held in Kota Bharu, I tried Against these, Sir, we have to look to get some information on this, into the question of administration in because some newspapers in London the Ministry as well as in connected were very interested, but I was told Ministries. There appears to be a lack this again is something that should not of interest in dealing with doctors. For be told to me, or to anybody, and that example, if there is a complaint, it is not meant for publication. I did nobody really seems to care and letters, get a few facts about this—but after as usual, went by without any replies much persuasion on my part. for weeks. If a doctor were to resign, the only interest shown by adminis­ However, Sir, I would like to go on trators is that for people wishing to to the general complaints that we find resign, you should make a note at the with this Ministry. But, before I do so, bottom and forward it to such and I would like to say a few things about such a department and the due process doctors and their work so as, perhaps, of administration will be carried out, to give a fair idea of the difference and eventually the doctor will resign. between the work that is performed by There is no desire on the part of the doctors and the work that is normally administrators to enquire into the performed by ordinary Government reasons why doctors resign and to try servants. I am not saying that the somehow or other to influence doctors doctors are very special people, but the to stay in Government service. There is type of work they do is completely always the ready explanation that they different and due consideration must want to resign because they want to be given to this in thinking about how make more money outside, and even we could remedy the question of short­ if they protest that they do not want to ages and dissatisfaction among doctors. do so, they are told that that is why Sir, at one of the meetings held they are going to resign. (Laughter). between the Staff and the Government Sir, this has been going on for years over the question of doctor's pay, and years and we have only adopted doctors put in the claim that they do half measures. I have to repeat this put 24 hours work a day, that the thing again, because I feel that the period of training is longer and that administrators must understand that because their period of training was there are doctors who resign in order longer, they had to lose a lot of money to make more money in public practice, in the way of pay and, in fact, had to but there are also doctors who are spend money where others would be willing to work for the Government but earning money in Government service. their position in Government is made The reply to the complaint that doctors so untenable that they have to resign. have to put in at times 24 hours a day was that even M.C.S. officers Dr Tan Chee Khoon: Hear! Hear! have to go on duty for 24 hours a day. Now, everybody knows that Dr Mahathir bin Mohamad: The there is a vast difference between condition in the Government service M.C.S. officers, or civil servants, going too has changed: for example, doctors on duty 24 hours a day and doctors working in Government service no being on duty 24 hours a day, because longer find themselves master of any if doctors are on duty 24 hours a day, situation at all. They are incapable, the chances are that they will have to or they do not have the authority, to work 24 hours a day. We know District run their hospitals the way that a Officers and others also do 24 hours hospital should be run. Discipline duty a day, but they are very seldom among the staff has descended to a called upon to do any duty at all. In new low, so that it is impossible to district hospitals where probably there giva out any order and expect the thing is only one doctor, when a doctor does to be carried out properly. This is due, 24 hours a day, he is quite often mainly, to the fact that there is now 4869 6 DECEMBER 1965 4870 no such thing as disciplinary action. But, anyway, they are off at 4 o'clock, No one can take any disciplinary action because I suppose this is union time, against any of the junior staff, because or something like that, and they are not such action must be referred to the supposed to work beyond 4 o'clock. If Ministry, or the P.S.C., and eventually there is a queue of patients waiting nothing is done about it. So the doctor in the outpatients department, and is finds himself quite incapable of to be left for tomorrow, or to be left controlling his staff and thereby the to their colleagues, like myself, in the service offered by hospitals has private practice, who might benefit deteriorated during the last few years. from this attitude (Laughter), This trend, I think, will continue unless Some of the complaints I have the Government takes this matter of received concern the outpatients depart­ insubordination among the staff ment. Some hospitals employ recep­ seriously and try to give Medical tionists for the outpatients department, Officers and Medical Superintendents but invariably these receptionists do the authority to carry out disciplinary not work as receptionists, but are asked action, where there is a need for dis­ to do some typewriting work, or some ciplinary action. I am not advocating, other clerical work and the patients Sir, that doctors can do just about whom they are supposed to receive are what they like with their staff, but left to tend for themselves and in the within reasonable limits they should be case of people from the rural areas, given the authority to institute discip­ who know nothing about how hospitals linary action. are organised, this is very confusing, because after having seen the doctor, On the question of the relationship they do not know where to go. They between the public and the hospital, are probably told to go to the X-Ray about which the Honourable Minister department and since they could not mentioned so much just now, I feel read the signboards—and these sign­ that, while we can find instances where boards too are placed just anywhere doctors as well as hospital staff have that some hospital assistants have felt been rather un-cooperative, or rude that they should be put—it leaves these to the public, there is also truth in the poor, illiterate rural patients at a loss complaint by members of the staff that as to where to go after seeing the the public too has been most un-co­ doctor, or for that matter to get the operative, probably because they know medicine from the dispensary. Quite that doctors and the staff in the hospital often, too, a doctor may prescribe some are in no position to do anything about medicine and ask the patient to go to it. I hope, Sir, that in time, to organise the dispensary, only to be told that a much better hospital service, this there is no such medicine, but he is question of public co-operation should not re-directed to the doctor, so that be taken seriously and something more the patient quite often goes home with­ than just a goodwill committee should out any medicine at all. All this could be thought of. I am very willing to be overcome, if we have proper recep­ take up the question of the grouses of tionists and proper staff to look after the doctors, but, on the other hand, the patients when they go to the there are legitimate grounds for com­ hospital. It is only fair that these sick plaining that some doctors are not people who come from the rural areas giving the service that they should to should be treated with some considera­ the hospital, or to the Government, tion and sympathy in their attempts to which employs them. Quite a number switch from what is essentially the old- of doctors are off at 4 o'clock like a fashioned type of kampong medicine shot, because they have a game to play to what we call western medicine. somewhere. On the question of specialist depart­ Dr Tan Chee Khoon: Golf! ments, we know now that because of the accelerated post-graduate training Dr Mahathir bin Mohamed: I did of doctors we have filled about all the not mention any particular game! specialist posts available in the Ministry 4871 6 DECEMBER 1965 4872 and these posts are filled by young This health education should be a people who will probably fill these specialised thing and should be pro­ posts for the next 20 years, leaving the pagated through films, through talks, younger doctors, who intend to and through personal contacts. This is specialise no room for improvement. not very difficult for the Department I would suggest, Sir, that every effort to do, but I fear that there is no co­ should be made to start new specialist operation at all between the Ministry departments, because medicine is pro­ of Health and the Ministry of Infor­ gressing rapidly elsewhere and it is mation. I think it is about time the about time that we in Malaysia think Ministry of Health had a good chat about keeping up with the rest of the with the Ministry of Information, so world. There are a few specialist units that we can get these things going. which we need to start immediately, and I would mention, amoung others, In the rural health programme, too, I think it is about time we started a cardiac-surgery unit, a plastic surgery immunisation programmes. When there unit, a genitourinary unit and more was a cholera outbreak in Kedah, it psychiatric outpatients units. provided a terific spurt to immunisation On the question of cardiac-surgery, against cholera, but since then we have I hear that there is a proposal to have sort of forgotten the usefulness of the one unit in the General Hospital and immunisation programme; and yet, another unit in the New Teaching Sir, every year a lot of people from the Hospital. I feel, Sir, that while there rural areas, a lot of children, die of is a need for a new cardiac-surgery diphtheria, people die of tetanus, and unit in Malaysia, to start two units in children suffer from whooping cough the same place at about the same time and even polio, and I think it would is a sheer waste, and I think the efforts cost the Government very little to start of both the University and that of the a proper immunisation programme Ministry should be co-ordinated, so against .... that we will have just one cardiac- surgery unit. One other thing to Enche' Bahaman bin Samsudin: Mr remember is that if we are to start new Chairman, Sir, a lot of guesses! units, they should be started indepen­ dently and the new incumbent given a Dr Mahathir bin Mohamad: I am chance to develop it properly. There sorry if I make a lot of guesses, but as is a tendency, I think, among doctors far as I know this is what happens in to establish little empires of their own the rural areas and I know there is no in which the younger and newer doctors programme to immunise the rural are supposed to work under their people against diphtheria, against instructions and to stay there. This 1 tetanus and against whooping cough. think would cripple the minds of the As I have said before, I think the younger doctors and would not help Ministry is very secretive about certain towards the development of a very things, and I think if I ask a question good hospital service. of the State C.M. & H.O., I might have to wait another month for a reply. On the question of rural health, we know now that we have a lot of clinics Dr Tan Chee Khoon: Dua bulan! going up in the rural areas, and we have provided a few midwives. But I Mr Chairman: Don't disturb him! think this is limiting rural work too Please proceed. much and that we should now begin thinking of more facilities for the rural Dr Mahathir bin Mohamad: Finally, people, so that their health can be as Sir, I would like to return to the good as that of those in the urban question of doctors and their grouses in areas. In this connection, Sir, I would the service. We have heard from the suggest that one of the most important Honourable Minister the efforts made things in health education, which I to produce more doctors in Singapore have mentioned before and which I and in Malaysia, and the efforts made think I should mention again and again. to recruit doctors from abroad and to 4873 6 DECEMBER 1965 4874 send doctors for training abroad. But own money. Sir, taking this into con­ I feel, Sir, that with the rapid increase sideration, I would suggest that in in population and with the changes in calculating the years of service, the ideas about the doctor/population period of housemanship should be in­ ratio, all our efforts now would be cluded in calculating as to when a nothing compared to our needs in the doctor should be put on permanent near future. There is still a need to establishment and for the purpose of step up the production of doctors and pension rights, etc. the University Hospital that we are building, the Medical Faculty that we Another complaint by non-Malay have in Kuala Lumpur and that in doctors is that they have to sit for this Singapore will never be able to produce Malay examination. There is no com­ sufficient doctors to meet our needs in plaint against Malay examination, but the next few years even. We should, as I have said before, doctors have to therefore, think of a crash programme, work at times 24 hours a day, although about which I spoke last year, to pro­ some of them play golf, but some duce more doctors and that this crash doctors do really work and it is grossly programme should in no way be related unfair to expect them to sit down and to huge teaching hospitals and beautiful study like other civil servants. I would lecture theatres. We have the hospitals suggest, therefore, that before they sit in this country where doctors can be for the Malay examination they should taught and can be trained, and I see at least be given one month's leave to no reason why they cannot be trained. prepare themselves, so that they can I am all for maintaining the rather be free from their duties in order to high standards of medicine in this concentrate on their examinations. country, but if we want to maintain standards as in the more advanced Another thing which, I think, would countries, we will have to do without indue© more doctors to stay in Govern­ the doctors themselves. I think it is far ment service is a sort of inducement better to produce more doctors, who allowance for doctors serving in one are probably slightly less capable than doctor hospitals. For example, the to have no doctors at all. Again, as I District Hospital in Langkawi has just said last year, we are quite willing to one doctor, and he isi quite often asked accept doctors from India, from un­ to do 24 hours duty a day for weeks known medical colleges, who would and months with no relief. The sort of never have had a chance to be trained work that a doctor does call upon con­ as doctors in this country, but our own centration and the seriousness of pur­ boys are not allowed to study medicine, pose, and this is a strain on anybody. if they started off with the same qualifi­ I do not think it is a good thing to cations as the boys who go to India. have doctors working under strain, I do not see why we should give this because a sleepy doctor at 3 o'clock opportunity to doctors from India and in the morning might very well make from other parts of the world, from the wrong diagnosis which he may Korea for example, when our own revise the next morning, if the patient students who are quite capable of being is still alive. (Laughter). So, if you like trained as doctors are denied the to see a doctor at 3 o'clock when he chance. has just finished an operation and perhaps he feels very sleepy, and you On the question of doctors serving have an appendicitis, you might like to in Government service, it is important excuse him for making the mistake of to remember that doctors take a much diagnosing mere gastritis or something longer time to be trained and that like that if you are alive the next whSe Arts graduates and Science gra­ morning. So, I would suggest that duates probably leave the University where doctors have to work and run and begin to earn, doctors are still a hospital all on their own for 24 undergoing training, and during that hours a day, they should be given period they not only do not earn money some form of inducement allowance. I but they actually have to spend their would leave it to the Ministry to think 4875 6 DECEMBER 1965 4876 up about how or what sort of induce­ am in private practice, and I am ment they would like to give. certainly not very much attracted to the scheme that is given. Then, again, there is the question of women doctors. Now, there are ideas, Lastly, Sir. I would like to talk acquired mainly from the West, that about aid to the Anti T.B. Association. anybody could see any doctor irrespec­ A sum of money of about $106,000 is tive of the sex. That may be so in allocated as financial assistance to the England, that may be so in America; Anti T.B. Association and these volun­ but in this country people, women tary anti T.B. workers are very grate­ especially still prefer to see women ful to the Ministry for this allocation, doctors, and children too appear to and we hope that the Ministry will prefer to see women doctors. Sir, there continue to support the work done by is a distinct need for women doctors, the anti T.B. workers and also to give and we are so short of women doctors; them, at local levels, the co-operation yet women doctors are treated not as that these workers need. Thank you, equals and are not given any incentive Sir. to work at all. They are not asked to specialise in anything, although some Dato' Haji Hussein bin Mohd. of them are specialists, I would admit, Noordin (Parit): Tuan Pengerusi, saya but they are not encouraged to take up suka hendak berchakap dalam S. 32 specialties, and if they are married Kementerian Kesihatan Sub-head they are discriminated against. If a (1)—Menteri Kesihatan, muka (287) women doctor gets married before dan Bahagian Kesihatan muka (294). being put on pensionable establish­ Tuan Pengerusi, tadi Yang Berhor- ment, she is no longer eligible to be mat Menteri Kesihatan telah menyebut put on pensionable establishment. But, ranchangan membena sa-buah rumah somehow or other, if she were to marry sakit di-Changkat Melintang di-Perak one day after being put on the pension­ akan di-tinjau kapada ranchangan able establishment, she can stay on Malaysia yang pertama, ia-itu 1966 pensionable establishment. I do not dan 1970. Saya terpaksa bangun dan know what difference this makes, beruchap kapada Menteri Yang Ber- because if you are thinking of doctors hormat terima kaseh di-atas ulangan getting pregnant and not working, janjian-nya supaya sa-buah hospital whether she marries before or after akan di-bena dalam ranchangan makes no difference {Laughter). Sir, I Malaysia yang pertama. Chadangan think this sort of unnecessary dis­ membena sa-buah rumah sakit di- crimination should be done away with. daerah Parit ia-lah di-buat semenjak beberapa tahun sa-belum saya menjadi Lastly, on the question of doctors, Wakil Ra'ayat, Chadangan ini telah I would like to talk about the super- di-sampai kapada Tun Leong Yew scale posts available. I notice here that Koh di-waktu beliau menjadi Menteri the Honourable Minister has promised Kesihatan di-masa pembukaan rasmi that this will be revised, but I would kelinik kesihatan baru di-Parit. Beliau like the Minister to note that whereas juga telah membuat akuan dan per- in the Civil Service the ratio of time- janjian akan berikhtiar untok melak- scale to superscale is as low as 1:1.8 sanakan-nya; pemohonan ini juga telah or 2, in the Medical Service the ratio di-sampai oleh Wakil2 Ra'ayat di-masa is 1:5 or even 1:6. Now this is grossly itu bagi pehak pendudok2 di-tebing unfair, considering the nature of the Sungai Perak. work of the doctors. I am glad to note, Sir, in the speech made by the Pada tahun 1961 rayuan saperti ini Honourable Minister, that part-time telah di-sampai kapada Yang Berhor- doctors will be taken on to fill in gaps, mat Dato' Ong Yoke Lin bekas Men­ and I am quite sure quite a few teri Kesihatan pada masa itu, dan doctors will rise to the call although pada tahun itu juga beliau telah I do not think they are so dedicated melawat di-kawasan Sungai Perak as the Minister thinks. That is because daripada Parit sampai ka-Telok Anson I know—I am a doctor myself, and I hendak menyiasatkan keadaan tempat 4877 6 DECEMBER 1965 4878

itu, di-kawasan itu, ada-kah sa-buah available di-dalam Development Esti­ hospital menasabah di-bena di-dalam mates itu telah pun di-masokkan di- kawasan itu. Apabila beliau melawat dalam estimate. Saya hendak meng- pada bulan September 1961, lepas ingatkan, Tuan Pengerusi, ia-itu di- melawat ka-kawasan2 di-tepi Sungai dalam uchapan Yang di-Pertuan Agong Perak, beliau telah memberi keputusan pada tahun 1962 beliau telah menyebut- ia-itu membena sa-buah hospital di- kan ranchangan2 hendak membuat tiga kawasan Sungai Perak. Dan juga hospital di-kawasan luar bandar, ia-itu keputusan itu saya boleh-lah mem- satu Changkat Melintang, Perak; bachakan surat yang di-tulis oleh dua—Dungun; tiga—Tanjong Karang. Setia-usaha Tetap, Kementerian Kesi­ Tadi telah pun di-terangkan oleh hatan, pada 5 haribulan September, Menteri Yang Berhormat ia-itu hospi­ 1961, kapada Setia-usaha Kerajaan tal Dungun dan Tanjong Karang telah Perak ia-itu "Proposal for a hospital pun siap tetapi mengapa hospital yang in the sub-district of Parit" dalam di-Changkat Melintang yang telah ada paragraph, saya quote: estimate-nya tidak di-bena? "It is, however, firmly felt by this Ministry that the real and urgent need to provide a Tuan Pengerusi, tahun 1963 lagi hospital is for those riverine peoples who live ia-itu Yang Berhormat bekas Menteri in between the Parit Town and Telok Anson, a distance of about fifty miles. A good Kesihatan masa itu ia-lah Yang Ber­ weather-bound metal road is now available hormat Enche' Abdul Rahman Talib from Parit Town to Lambor Kanan. In order di-masa pembukaan rasmi pusat bidan that the widest possible range of kampongs di-Tanjong Belanja Parit telah juga could be served so that inhabitants therein could obtain modern medical facilities, it is mengatakan ia-itu hospital ini akan proposed by this Ministry that Lambor di-bena pada tahun 1964 tetapi beliau Kanan would be the most suitable locality telah menyebutkan ada kesulitan ber­ where a new forty-to-fifty beds hospital with kenaan dengan pembenaan hospital one doctor could be established to cater for the needs of those living down river in the ini, ia-itu berkenaan dengan plan Parit sub-district and for those living up river hospital. Saya dapat tahu plan hospital in the Lower Perak District. This proposed ini akan di-buat oleh satu local archi­ hospital could also serve the new settlers of tect ia-itu bernama Liew & Wong. Jadi the down river area of Trans-Perak Padi Irrigation Scheme. oleh sebab tidak mendapat kerjasama antara Menteri Kesihatan dan Kemen­ At the last riverine visit of the Honourable Minister of Health and Social Welfare, a site terian P.W.D. maka plan itu telah pun at Changkat Melintang was suggested and di-hantar balek kapada architect balek shown to him." ka-Kementerian, balek kapada P.W.D., ashek pulang balek, pulang balek Dan lagi Tuan Pengerusi, surat dari- makan dua tahun. Jadi, saya pun pada Kementerian kapada State sudah bertanya kapada Menteri, dan Secretary ia-itu berkenaan dengan saya dapat tahu ia-itu sekarang Ke­ hospital ini. Surat yang bertarikh 29 November, 1961, ia-itu, chadangan menterian ini telah menarek balek membena sa-buah hospital di-Sub- contract itu daripada architect dan District Parit saya quote: membayar sa-banyak lebeh kurang $20,000 kapada architect. Di-sini, saya "I am to assure you that this Ministry has the necessary funds to meet the cost of minta Kerajaan menyiasat, mengapa acquisition of the site and that for the year bayar $20,000 kapada architect itu? 1962 the initial funds for the cost of building Dan juga sebab perkara ini-lah yang this hospital would be made available in the melambatkan membena hospital di- Development Estimates. I am sure that you will agree with this Ministry that the sooner Changkat Melintang. this project could be implemented the earlier it would be possible for this Ministry to Tuan Pengerusi, tahun 1964 juga— provide medical and health facilities to the waktu Pilehan Raya, soal2 hospital ini rural inhabitants living on both banks of the Perak River." ada-lah satu soal yang merunsingkan, ia-itu salah satu issue bagi kawasan Jadi, Tuan Pengerusi, nampak- saya. Sebab, wakil PAS, ia-itu wakil nya chadangan membena hospital itu, daripada Bachok, yang pada masa itu bukan-lah ranchangan baru, tetapi dia belum bertanding, dia jadi ejen ranchangan lama dan yang di-katakan kapada chalun PAS, telah pergi 4879 6 DECEMBER 1965 4880

merata2 tempat dan mengatakan per- yang kedua sudah habis. Jadi, yang janjian hospital ini hendak di-buat di- saya minta kapada Yang Berhormat Parit, ada-lah semata2-nya bohong. Menteri ini merayu supaya Ranchangan Jadi, sekarang saya pula dapat tahu Pembenaan Hospital ini di-Changkat ranchangan hospital ini akan di-buat Melintang, di-dapatkan priority di- dalam masa Ranchangan Malaysia dalam Ranchangan Malaysia Yang Yang Pertama ia-itu Pilehan Raya yang Pertama. Sebab, apa yang di-chakap- akan datang pada tahun 1969. Apa kan, yang di-tuliskan oleh Setia-usaha yang saya hendak chakap, sebab masa Tetap Kementerian ini ia-lah keadaan sa-tahun lagi—1970 baharu na' buat yang sa-benar2 di-dalam kawasan di- hospital. Jadi perkara ini bukan saya tepi Sungei Perak ini. Jadi, saya ber- berjanji, tetapi Menteri2 yang ber- harap-lah, saya tidak lagi hendak ber­ kenaan, Menteri2 yang berkewajipan chakap lagi di-atas perkara ini, sebab berkenaan dengan Kementerian Kesi- saya tahu apa yang saya katakan tadi: hatan yang buat janji—bukan-lah saya You shut up, then we build the yang membuat janji. Jadi, saya ta' ada- hospital; therefore, I will shut up and lah berchakap bohong. Jikalau perkara sit down. ini di-bawa di-dalam Dewan yang di- masokkan di-dalam Titah di-Raja pun Dr Tan Chee Khoon (Batu): Tuan mengatakan hendak buat hospital, Pengerusi, saya bangun untok meng- Menteri pun mengaku dengan ra'ayat ambil bahagian berchakap tentang saya, hendak buat hospital—itu saya Anggaran Belanjawan Kementerian ta' tahu macham mana sikap Menteri Kesihatan. Tuan Pengerusi, apabila itu. Jadi, barangkali sebab saya back-benchers selalu bangun ber­ chakap banyak berkenaan dengan chakap, dan mereka selalu uchapan-nya hospital ini—tidak dapat hospital itu yang berbunyi bagitu: "Tuan Penge­ di-dirikan di-Parit. Jadi, saya hendak rusi saya bangun untok memberi tahu sikap Kementerian ini, ada-kah tahniah kapada Yang Berhormat dia mahu supaya: You shut up, then Menteri". Tetapi malang-nya, Tuan we build the hospital? Jadi ini tujuan- Pengerusi, kita telah mendengar dua back-benchers bukan memberi sa- nya! You shut up, then we build the 2 hospital. Ini-kah sikap-nya? Jadi, saya tinggi tahniah kapada Yang Ber­ ta' boleh hendak shut up sa-lagi hormat Menteri yang tidak hadhir hospital yang di-janjikan oleh Menteri sekarang (Ketawa), tetapi, back­ yang bertanggong-jawab itu belum lagi benchers sekarang nampak-nya selalu di-jalankan, atau di-laksanakan. Jadi, ta' puas hati dan mengeritik Yang saya pun naik hairan—pada masa Berhormat Menteri sampai dia malu— meshuarat perbelanjaan yang dahulu— keluar dari Dewan ini. 1965, Yang Berhormat Menteri ini Mr Chairman, Sir, I wish to touch juga telah berjanji bila saya membang- on a few things that are before us, and kitkan perkara hospital di-Changkat I wish to say that, although I arrived Melintang, dia berkata, ada-lah per­ late, on matters of health I beam on kara pembenaan hospital itu ada di- the same wavelength as the Member dalam Development Estimates akan for Kota Star Selatan, and I do hope di-buat pada tahun 1965, tetapi hari all doctors in this august Assembly, ini pula dia kata di-tundakan kapada whether they are on that side of the Ranchangan Malaysia yang kedua. House, or on this side of the House, we Jadi, Tuan Pengerusi, saya ta' tahu-lah must beam on the same wavelength, if apa yang we are to be true to our profession. Now, Mr Chairman, Sir, I wish to touch Enche' Ibrahim bin A. Rahman: on page 287 and I hope the Parlia­ Bukan Ranchangan Malaysia yang ke­ mentary Secretary will take note here. dua. Tetapi uchapan Yang Berhormat This post of Setia-usaha Tetap, yang pertama. Kementerian Kesihatan, Mr Chairman, Sir, I do not know why this post is Dato' Haji Hussein bin Noordin: put there. We all know that the person Tuan Pengerusi, saya tahu ini yang has been axed and, to say the least pertama, tetapi Development Estimates and to be kind to the person, I shall 4881 6 DECEMBER 1965 4882 say, he did not measure up to as well. You have lost not only one standards, and so he was axed: and doctor but two doctors—all due to the properly speaking, Mr Chairman, Sir, inefficiency, shall I use a more stronger that post of Setia-usaha Tetap Kemen- language, of the Ministry of Health. terian, it should have a token vote, because the axing took place not one Now, we all know that in the day ago, two days ago, but it took place Ministry of Health, they are always months ago—we know that. Why should beset with problems. Sometimes it is you fool the public, you fool the world, the nurses, who threaten to go on by saying that there is such a post, strike because the food is bad; some­ when there is no post? And if you times it is the dispensers who want to want to have a semblance of what you work to rule, because their legitimate call "Jangan-lah buat malu", you put claims have not been met, or the a token vote of $10. Now, Mr Chair­ Ministry sits on the claims for months man, Sir, it is very interesting to know on end; and sometimes it is the radio­ why this post is axed, and it is no graphers who work to rule and, there­ secret Mr Chairman, Sir, that the post by, keep a backlog of patients queueing has been axed, because there has been up for X-rays to be taken. All these, inefficiency galore in the Ministry of Mr Chairman, Sir, are due to the Health. They know it, the back­ inefficiency of the Ministry of Health room boys know it, the Minister knows and the sooner the Minister—he has it, the Parliamentary Secretary knows already removed one deadwood— it, and we in the profession know it— removes more deadwood the better it that you just cannot do things as the is for him, or perhaps, Mr Chairman, Member for Kota Star Selatan said: Sir,—Who knows?—the axe may well if you write a letter to the Ministry, fall on him, as the Member for Parit you probably have got to wait for one has said "Malu", because he cannot go month—and I shouted across the floor and meet his electorate there, because two months, Sir—for a reply. That is the Ministry has promised a hospital a measure of the efficiency or ineffi­ and has not kept its promise. ciency of the Ministry of Health. Now, Mr Chairman, Sir, I shall just give one Now, Mr Chairman, Sir, may I take instance of this inefficiency. The a little time of this House to go through Ministry, or the Minister, says that we the reasons for resignation of the are short of doctors, we will grab hold doctors in this country. Now, Mr Chair­ of any doctor that comes our way. Yet man, Sir, I have asked an Oral Question in the case of Dr Manoharan, a con­ on this matter, and the Minister has tract officer, a citizen of Singapore, given us some glib answers to this when his contract came up he was not question; and, because of the inhibi­ told whether his contract would be tions placed on a tukar fikiran during renewed or not. Now, surely, in the Oral Questions, I now wish to elabo­ ordinary course of events, if the Minis­ rate on this and I hope the Permanent try is efficiently run, three months Secretary will note this down since the before a person's contract is due to be Minister is not here—perhaps he may up you tell him, "We want to retain well have angina pectoris before us, or your services" or "So sorry, we don't is it a cardiac inefficiency, due to the want to retain your services", and he attacks of the Member from Kota Star knows what to do and he will make Selatan and the Member for Parit. Now, his own preparations. But instead of one of the main reasons of the doctors this, he was left dangling in the air for resigning is that there are not enough months, after the date of his contract superscale posts. If you look through was due to be up—and can you blame this you will see, as has been pointed that doctor concerned, the only Ph.D out by the Member from Kota Star in this country and in Singapore in Selatan, that most of the posts have industrial hygiene? He, as soon as he been filled—and they are likely to be found a job—and he has found a job filled for a long time to come—and in the University of Singapore—he unless you have promotion prospects went down to Singapore with his wife for doctors who are suitably qualified. 4883 6 DECEMBER 1965 4884 you are not likely to retain these doc­ will ask for a supplementary provi­ tors—the Minister knows that, and yet sion". Is that the way you assuage the he is brazen enough to come to this fears, or is that the way you meet the House. His estimates have been cut legitimate aspirations of the doctors in from $121 million to $119 million for the service, particularly those in the next year. How is he going to meet the higher grades? They also can read legitimate aspirations of the doctors by these things—and, presumably, they a cut in his Ministry? Another cause also can buy a copy of this; and when for dissatisfaction amongst the doctors they look through it very carefully, they is that there are not enough high query, "Apa macham? Tempat ini superscale posts in the Ministry of Superscale F, semua M.C.S. orang; saya Health. tida ada peluang menaikkan pangkat; apa guna saya berkerja di-Kerajaan; Now, Mr Chairman, Sir, if you look baik saya buka kedai saya sendiri"; at page 287, there is a post of Timbalan and it is as simple as that, Mr Chair­ Setia-usaha, Tingkatan-tertinggi F. man, Sir. I wish to point out to the Now, Mr Chairman, Sir, that post is Ministry that unless they increase the filled by an M.C.S. officer and, number of superscale posts and unless although I have not investigated the they upgrade a good number of these case, I am fairly certain that that superscale posts, they are going to get officer qualified probably in the middle more resignations on their hand. Then, fifties—in other words, he has put in what if the ra'ayat were to lead a only about 10 years' service—and he procession to Young Road and see how is Superscale F. Now, Mr Chairman, the Minister and his officers work in Sir, there are a whole heap of doctors, air-conditioned comfort; and while they who qualified long before the war, in linger, probably there is another cholera the early thirties—in other words, they outbreak in Kedah—one can never say; must have put in 30 years' service. we can easily get an outbreak of cholera While these chaps were doctors, the in Trengganu and in Kelantan follow­ M.C.S. officer, the Deputy Permanent ing the floods. Secretary, he probably was in his short pants, and now he is also F while the others are F; and this M.C.S. Officer Now, Mr Chairman, Sir, another lords over all the other officers, who cause of resignation amongst the are also Superscale F, if they are doctors is this question of frustration. fortunate to get there, or who are It is not only just not enough super- Superscale G and H. This is another scale posts, not enough higher grades cause of frustration amongst the of superscale posts, but it is the frust­ doctors: they look at all these Civil ration of conditions of service. The Service chaps sprouting out and getting Member for Kota Star Selatan has plums in the service, and they say: already mentioned how a doctor in a "I qualified before the war, over 30 single doctor post has to work for years' service, and I am still lingering 24 hours a day, and not for two months at Superscale F. Apa macham? I better but he has to work for months on end— leave the service. I am pensionable and it is humanly impossible to do already. I open a kedai. The Minister that. So, the sooner the Ministry thinks says I can mint money down there". of either doubling up the post, or, if That is all the Minister says. that is not possible, to rotate these posts, the better it is for the service. Now, Mr Chairman, Sir, the sooner And, Mr Chairman, Sir, I do not know the Ministry solves these two problems whether the back-room boys in the the better it is for the Ministry. And, Ministry ever take the trouble, when Mr Chairman, Sir, the Ministry cannot these letters of resignation come, to solve these problems by not increasing analyse all these letters of resignation the number of posts and upgrading all and find out, why is it that the doctors these posts—and he has not done so resign. I wish to say quite definitely in these Estimates. How is he going to that the large numbers of the doctors do it? He glibly tells us: "Oh, we will resigned not because they want to seek put in a Supplementary Supply Bill and better prospects elsewhere, because I 4885 6 DECEMBER 1965 4886 know of at least two doctors who have I am told that the Ministry is bickering gone into private practice, have closed with the staff and thinking of back­ their "kedais" and gone back to dating it to August, 1965. Now, Mr Government Service. So, private Chairman, Sir, we can see how the practice is not that pot of gold that Government works. When it comes to the Minister, or the Government Members' remuneration, when it comes benches would have us believe, but it to accidents and the like of Members is a calculated risk like in any pro­ and Ministers, or Prime Minister's fession; and so I would suggest that pension, you say, "service before and the Ministry, whenever you get a letter service after". When it comes to the of resignation, you go and sift the public health officers, you say, "No! thing, find out why is it that these No! No! The House accepted the doctors, particularly the young ones, Khaw Khai-Boh Report in 1963. That resign, and perhaps find ways and does not matter a bit. They don't means of meeting the legitimate aspira­ deserve these things, and we will give tions of the young doctors. them from August 1965".

Now, Mr Chairman, Sir, another The Minister of Health (Enche' example of this inefficiency of the Bahaman bin Samsudin): On a point Ministry is the way that the D.P.H. of clarification, Mr Chairman, Sir, the holders and those who do public Ministry does not hold the money. The health are being treated in this country. money is held by the Treasury. So, I believe that Parliament, way back at we have to consult the Treasury, the the end of 1963, accepted in toto the F.E.O., and so many other Depart­ Khaw Khai-Boh Report. In that ments. Report it was clearly stated that because public health is not such a Dr Tan Chee Khoon: That we know, glamorous branch of the service, people Mr Chairman, Sir, I do know that doing public health should be given Health is at the end of the queue and incentives, and it was felt that they not rightly so, but justifiably so. Since should be given an allowance. Now, the Minister is here now, why is it that was accepted by the House then. that the Minister is unable to convince Properly speaking, the Ministry should his Cabinet colleagues that these legiti­ take action on it straightway—but mate aspirations of the doctors be met? no Mr Chairman, Sir. Last year, time Why is it that the inducement allow­ and again, I have asked "Why is it ance should not be back-dated further that the Ministry does not give an back, from the date that the Khaw allowance to the D.P.H. holders?" Kai-Boh Report was accepted? Now, Then we were told "Oh, we are thinking since the Minister is here, one of the about it; we are thinking about it, we reasons why the Ministry of Health Is will do it." Now, it was about two always at the end of the queue is that months' ago, I believe, that the Minister every year, despite the fact that there came out with an announcement that is a great need for funds in the various those who have the D.P.H. will be given $350, and those who do not have branches of the service, the Ministry a D.P.H. but work in the health service gives back money to the Treasury— will be given an allowance of $175. and, rightly, the Treasury says, "Look But, Mr Chairman, Sir, this has not been here, we have given you all the money implemented as yet. I ask, why has it you want. You have not spent it. So, not been implemented? I say that if why do you want so much money? the Khaw Khai-Boh Report was We will cut it because we have given accepted, as indeed it was accepted, at you the money, but you cannot spend the end of 1963, then this inducement it". And that is one of the reasons why allowance should be given to those who the estimates for next year has been are qualified for it, back-dated to 1963, cut from $121 million to $119 million. if you want the doctors with public It is because the Ministry of Health health qualifications, or experience, to cannot and has not, year in and year remain in the service. Why is it not so? out, spent the allocation given to it. 4887 6 DECEMBER 1965 4888

Now, Mr Chairman, Sir, I now wish to my information is that the point has touch on this Teaching Hospital that not been settled as to whether the the Member for Kota Star Selatan has Teaching Hospital should come out already touched on. I do not know from the funds of the Ministry of whether this House knows—I have read Education or of the Ministry of Health. through these Estimates very care­ Sir, we know that from the Education fully—that there is nothing to indicate Ministry has come a directive to the that there is provision for the Teaching University Council that the expen­ Hospital for next year. The Teaching diture, their O.C.A.R. and O.C.S.E., Hospital next year is coming into for next year has been cut by $2.8 operation by about April or May, and million. How can the Ministry of Edu­ in these estimates there is not a single cation ever expect the University to cent. Perhaps, the Minister does not meet the cost of running a hospital of know it, and he will tell us now why 750 beds? is it so? Now, Mr Chairman, Sir, parallel Enche' Bahaman bin Samsudin: On with this Teaching Hospital, I fully a point of clarification, Mr Chairman, subscribe to what the Member for Kota the Teaching Hospital is in the Deve­ Star Selatan has said, that there should lopment Estimates. I do not like the be more opportunities for the young Honourable Member to go and make doctors to branch out in specialties a mess of himself. that have not been established in this Dr Tan Chee Khoon: Mr Chairman, country. I fully agree with him that Sir, a false reply, because the Minister these young doctors should work on knows that I am not talking of capital their own instead of being under the development—I am talking of recurrent aegis of an empire builder. I fully agree expenditure. Mr Chairman, Sir, here is with him that there are lots of empire a Minister who comes and tells us that builders in the Ministry of Health. the engagement of doctors, nurses, Everyone wants to build an empire of midwives and all come from the his own and lord it over. Development Estimates. I do not know Now, we have seen the tiny island of whether any of the Ministers subscribe Singapore. They have a medical to that. Do you provide your O.C.A.R. specialties drive to build a separate and O.C.S.E. from the Development Department of Medical Specialties. Estimates? This is what the Minister Why is it that we a bigger country, and is telling us. This is nonsense. The we always say that we are more pro­ truth of the issue is this, Mr Chairman, gressive and the like, why should not Sir. I will tell the Minister since I am we have a Department of Medical going to the University in a short Specialties where, as the Honourable while: the fact is the Ministry of Health Member for Kota Star Selatan said, and the Ministry of Education have not we can develop not only cardio­ come to a conclusion as to who should vascular surgery, not only thoracic have control of this Hospital. Con­ surgery, neurology, plastic surgery and sequently, there is not even a token the like? Why should not we have such vote in either the Ministry of Educa­ a Department? I commend it to the tion, or the Ministry of Health. Minister for Health, so that if he starts Enche9 Bahaman bin Samsudin: On a fund as in Sinagpore—the Govern­ a point of clarification, Mr Chairman, ment there matches the money collected Sir, the Ministry of Education has from the public dollar for dollar—if taken over. he starts this, then we can start such a Medical Specialties Department in Dr Tan Chee Khoon: Now, we know the Teaching Hospital. No doubt there that the Minister tells us that it is not will be more opportunities not only in the Development Estimates but in for our young doctors, but we need not the Ministry of Education. You see this send some of these cases that are being is the way the Ministry of Health flown to Australia, Bangkok, and the works, Mr Chairman, Sir, and I wish United Kingdom for specialist treat­ the Minister is correct on that, because ment. Why should we not start on our 4889 6 DECEMBER 1965 4890 own? For example, the Professor of attendants—there is no shortage there Surgery in the Teaching Hospital, he, as you can get any number you want; unlike what the Honourable Member but for people with skills, there is a for Kota Star Selatan says, cannot shortage, and I wish to point out to practice his craft. He has to teach and the Minister, if I am not mistaken, he has to do general surgery. There are there is a Pharmacist with a Ph.D.— no facilities for cardio-vascular surgery I think about the only one with Ph.D.— in the Teaching Hospital. This is a and all that he is doing in the Govern­ thing that the Minister should look ment Service is to make mixtures and into—cardio-vascular surgery, thoracic the like to dish it out. What a waste surgery: you see even in a Teaching of public funds to employ a Ph.D. to Hospital there are no facilities. Con­ do nothing more than that of the work sequently, I would urge the Minister of a dispenser? What should be done of Health to get on with this job of is that the Ph.D. should be taken out trying to give more opportunities to of that post and sent to the Pharmaceu­ our local doctors with the requisite tical Factory in Petaling Jaya to do a qualifications and, perhaps, also with decent and honest piece of work, ratiier the requisite experience as well, so that than being a plain pharmacist or no if they have such opportunities, they better than a dispenser. This is one of will not resign from the Government the ways why I say the Ministry of Service. Health is characterized by inefficiency galore. You have lots of square pegs Now, Mr Chairman, Sir, the Ministry in round holes. of Health is characterized, is badgered, by shortage of all types of personnel: Now, Mr Chairman, Sir, I also wish doctors—the Minister has talked to touch on this question of rural enough of doctors; he does not high­ health. Although the Government light the shortage of nurses—there is makes much noise in the press, over a terrific shortage of nurses. Radio and Television, whenever the Minister opens a Rural Health Centre, Enche' Bahaman bin Samsudin: Mr Chairman, Sir, obviously he has not I have seen with my own eyes, and I listened to my speech just now; if he have told this House, where in Bukit had listened he would not be rambling Rakit, for example, in Kuala Treng- like that. ganu, it was empty. In Bukit Tunggal, I think, which is about five miles from Dr Tan Chee Khoon: Well, if the Kuala Trengganu, there is a Health Minister did say that there is a short­ Centre, and when I went there one age, then may I ask, and this House evening some time this year, there was is entitled to ask, what steps has he no doctor but two quarters reserved taken, or is he taking to remedy such for the doctors and the dental surgeons shortage? It is no use telling us there were occupied—one by a hospital is a shortage ad infinitum when .... assistant, another by an M.C.S. officer. What is the use of opening all these Enche' Bahaman bin Samsudin: I Centres all over the country, when have said that in my speech just now. you do not have the staff to staff Unfortunately, he was not here to them? listen to it. Dr Tan Chee Khoon: Mr Chairman, Enche' Bahaman bin Samsudin: Mr Sir, there is not only a shortage of Chairman, Sir, it is not opened yet. nurses, but there is also a shortage of That is the reason why it was like hospital assistants; and I do hope that that. the Minister himself has acknowledged that in his speech just now. There is a Dr Tan Chee Khoon: The Bukit shortage of dispensers; there is a short­ Tunggal Health Centre is open. age of pharmacists; there is a shortage of radiographers; and you go down the Enche' Bahaman bin Samsudin: Not line, there is no shortage of hospital officially. 4891 6 DECEMBER 1965 4892

Dr Tan Chee Khoon: He says now or seven children? Consequently, this that it is not opened officially. The Ministry gives $106,000 which is less building is up for two years. The than chicken feed, and with a little Minister, I know, does not play golf. more assistance from Social Welfare it But if he is too busy elsewhere and if is just hardly enough to go round. The the Health Centre is not officially Member for Kota Star Selatan is a opened—and all this time the tax­ general practitioner and so am I, and payers are footing the bill of thousands we know how great the need is for if not millions of dollars—and the such assistance. By about March or Minister calmly tells us it is not open April, when you send requests to the and we need not staff it and if the M.A.P.T.B. for assistance for your press publishes what I say, I leave it patients with TB there comes the to the country to judge. reply, "Sorry, no more funds". Now, may I commend to the Minister that Now, Mr Chairman, Sir, another the Ministry next year, or, by way of inefficiency of the Ministry of Health supplementary vote, should not give is this matter of G.Ps. assisting in the this category of sufferers the assistance rural areas. This was a scheme that of $106,000 but should multiply by the Malayan Medical Association— five, and even then it will be too about three to four years ago—put little—and this is where the question forward to the Ministry, and on one of priority comes. Mr Chairman, Sir, occasion last year when I asked the none other than the Assistant Minister question on this, the Minister confessed for Culture, Youth and Sports, when I that he did not know about it; but at questioned the wisdom of the Govern­ long last, after three years, it has gone ment spending half a million dollars through and the Minister has asked on this Rumah Peranginan in the for assistance from the G.Ps. If that Cameron Highlands, he says that that is the way the Ministry of Health is necessary, and he also says that operates .... in other countries people spend $5 million on such a project. But what Enche' Bahaman bin Samsudin: Mr about the ra'ayat, the long suffering Chairman, Sir, I was not the Minister ra'ayat, with batok kering! They don't of Health then. need any assistance; they can die away quietly in their homes. Let the Minis­ Dr Tan Chee Khoon: I was not ters have their game of golf in the talking about the Minister himself, Mr Cameron Highlands, let them live in Chairman, Sir—I am talking about the luxury in this Rumah Persekutuan in Ministry. I do hope that the Minister the Cameron Highlands. will not think that this is a personal attack on him. I am castigating the Finally, Mr Chairman, Sir, I regret Ministry—whatever that represents, that in these Estimates the vote for Sir. the Lady Templer Hospital is still half a million dollars. This is where I Now, Mr Chairman, Sir, I shall end would refer to the Minister, the Minis­ up with two more items. One, that is ter is not at fault, but unfortunately the M.A.P.T.B. Quite rightly, the there is no Treasury official here, Member for Kota Star Selatan says present here today. It is a hard that this grant of $106,000 is less than hearted .... {interrupted). chicken feed. While on the one hand the Minister goes and tell the whole Dr Ng Kam Poh: I am here. country, "All ye, who suffer from this complaint come unto me in the Dr Tan Chee Khoon: I am sorry, hospital; I will X-ray you, I will treat the Assistant Minister of Finance is you", then when you discover all these here. This is where I say that the fault cases of TB, what happens? The poor lies with the Treasury. Why should wage earner cannot afford to be not the Treasury provide not half a treated. He cannot afford fo be out of million dollars for the Lady Templer circulation and be in the hospital, Hospital but $700,000 for the Lady because who is going to feed his six Templer Hospital, because for the 4893 6 DECEMBER 1965 4894 last three years this subvention of $1 a day has been subsidised by half a million dollars has always been the Treasury which comes from the increased by a supplementary vote of General Hospital. I think the Honour­ $200,000. able Minister of Health will tell him so. Dr Ng Kam Poh: On a point of clarification, Mr Chairman, Sir—I Dr Tan Chee Khoon: Mr Chairman, give to the Lady Templer Hospital Sir, on the reply given by the Honour­ half a million dollars in the hope that able Assistant Minister—as I say, he some philanthropist like the Honour­ was a private practitioner himself— able Member for Batu might like to about 90% of the cases to the Lady donate another half a million dollars. Templer Hospital do not come from We anticipate such things. If that is the hospital, they come from practi­ not enough, we will give—fair enough. tioners all over the country; and But if the Honourable Member for where are they going to get this $1 Batu feels like giving, say, $250,000 a day? Is the Ministry prepared to we will accept it. finance, subsidise, these people? Well, let the Minister answer. The cases that Dr Tan Chee Khoon: A fat hope it are sent to the Lady Templer Hospital, is for the Treasury to expect any that are considered fit for treatment philanthropist to give a quarter by the Lady Templer Hospital, they million dollars to the Lady Templer are sent by the private practitioners, Hospital, when we know that there is and they are to foot this bill of $1 terrific waste in the Government itself. per day. Now what the Assistant Why should any philanthropist con­ Minister is talking of is the cases nive at this wasteful expenditure of referred to from the hospitals all over the Government? I would suggest, Mr the country—they get a subsidy of Chairman, Sir, that the Minister takes $1 from the Ministry, that is true. up this case of the extra $200,000 with his colleague, the Minister of Finance, Dr Ng Kam Poh: That is correct. and make it, not a temporary item, But that does not prevent the general but a permanent fixture. Also if you practitioner from recommending him look at the estimates you will see that to the hospital and sending him from so much is spent on kediaman Men- 2 the hospital to the Lady Templer teri —I see in "Home Affairs" last Hospital. year, rather this year, about $8,000 has been spent; next year another Dr Tan Chee Khoon: I am amazed $9,000 for the Minister of Home that there is a person who was a Affairs, is asked again in these esti­ private practitioner, who wants us to mates—and yet the Ministers are go round this way—from a private reluctant to give this $200,000 to the dispensary you send a case to the Lady Templer Hospital. Worse than already over-loaded General Hospital, that, Mr Chairman, Sir, as I brought and from there it goes to the Lady up the other day, "They rob Peter to Templer Hospital. Why is it so? If the pay Paul". They demand a pound of Government, in any case, is going to flesh from every patient who goes to pay this $1 by way of assistance the Lady Templer Hospital—pay up from the Ministry of Health, then you $1 for every day you stay here. should do away with this $1 a day Now the Honourable Assistant Minis­ fee on cases that are sent to the Lady ter of Finance was a general practi­ Templer Hospital, whether the cases tioner himself, and I hope he remem­ are sent by the Government hospitals, bers how difficult it was to persuade or they are sent from private practi­ some sufferers of T.B. to go into the tioners. This is one way. I do not Hospital for the simple reason" that know why the Government is so fond these people cannot go to the hospital. of robbing Peter to pay Paul. Dr Ng Kam Poh: Mr Chairman, Sir, Now, Mr Chairman, Sir, in con­ if the Honourable Member will allow clusion, may I just reiterate that I do me to put in a word or two. This hope the Ministry of Health—and the 4895 6 DECEMBER 1965 4896

Minister is here now—will cut off concept and a foolhardy policy, be­ more of the deadwood and get on with cause, of all the Ministries that the the job of seeing to the health of this Government should choose to cut country. With cholera in one case in down expenditure in exercise of this Kuala Lumpur—we may never know austerity aspect, it is very unfortunate how it may spread like wild fire, with that the Government should choose the floods in Kelantan and Treng- health and medicine for cutting down ganu—we never know what epidemics expenditure so drastically, because we will break out, we hope the Ministry all know that the health of the nation, will get on with the job of providing the health of the workers of this the ra'ayat of this country a better nation, and the health of the future health service. generations of this nation, must, to a large extent, determine the produc­ Sitting suspended at 6.00 p.m. tivity of this nation and the well being of this nation in future years. Sitting resumed at 6.24 p.m. (Mr Speaker in the Chair) Sir, when we look at this curtail­ ment of the total Budget in the light THE SUPPLY BILL, 1966 of the fact that this Budget now includes provisions for the States of Committee Borneo—namely Sarawak and Sabah— and also in the light of the eviction of House immediately resolved itself into Singapore, which means that our total a Committee of Supply. local needs in health, particularly with regard to the question of staffing from SCHEDULE the point of view of doctors, and if Head S. 32— you look at the problem from our own Debate resumed. development and increasing require­ ments for health facilities in the States Dr Lim Chong Eu (Tanjong): Mr of Malaya, the reduction is more Chairman, Sir, first of all, I must say ominous than what it apparently seems that we naturally sympathise with the to be at first sight. That is why, Sir, Honourable Minister of Health because I said that the whole Budget estimates in presenting this very foolhardy for the Ministry appears to be fool­ Budget, he is probably restricted under hardy; and when we go into details, his Cabinet responsibilities. But, in Sir, we will find that certain provi­ view of the fact that this House has sions, particularly under the provisions been reminded on more than one occa­ for health—malaria research, malarial sion that there is collective responsibility prevention, and so on—we notice that in the Cabinet, our observations that the amounts provided for in these are made and directed in particular to estimates are dangerously low. the Ministry of Health must contain a strong criticism of the Government Sir, Members in this House, the itself. Member for Kota Star Selatan, the Member for Batu, and even the Hon­ Several Members have already indi­ ourable the Assistant Minister of cated their concern that the total Finance, who are members of the provision for the Ministry of Health medical profession like myself, have this year is less than that provided for been constrained to bring up to the last year by some $9 million-plus. Sir, notice of this House matters, which this concern at first sight might appear involve the question of shortage of to be a little bit unnecessary, in view staffing and, in particular, the reasons of the fact that the Government, whereby doctors do not remain in the through the Minister of Finance, has service as long as they should—and told us that this is an austerity Budget. various reasons have been brought up, Sir, we have here an instance, where and the Member for Kota Star Selatan the Government has actually cut down has given us a very thorough detailed on the total expenditure on one Minis­ examination of the situation. However, try but we say that this is a foolhardy Sir, I would like to cristalise the issue 4897 6 DECEMBER 1965 4898 and go more on fundamentals—not in or vestige, of the old colonial medical a world of my own but on the funda­ system. Sir, unless the Government mentals of the world—in respect of and the Minister for Health sets up the situation of Malaysia which the an advisory Committee—and actually Cabinet apparently has isolated itself there was a Committee set up several from. Sir, the Honourable Member for years ago when the Honourable Minis­ Parit, I think, struck the correct note. ter for Telecommunications was the This situation of health, and the pro­ incumbent Minister for Health—to vision for the development of health look into the whole question of the in our country, is a long standing health needs of our country, the evidence of the suffering and the per­ pattern of the development of the severance of our people against the health programme of this country, and indifference and the lack of vigour of determine exactly what course is best Alliance Government policy towards suited for the needs of Malaysia, we the question of health. There is a will continue to have recurrent criti­ fundamental reason why the Govern­ cisms on details which the Minister ment Medical Services, in all respects, for Health will have to stand up every have slowly found it more and more now and then to reply to. difficult to provide for conditions, Sir, I think we must try and meet whereby the staff will remain in the these fundamental issues. We must service. The question was brought up know now what are the needs in terms a long time ago, even at the time of not only of our growing States of the very first Minister of Health, the Malaya, but we must know it in terms late Tun Leong Yew Koh; and this of Malaysia, i.e., in terms of all our was also mentioned by the Honourable territories including the Borneo States. Member for Parit. The question of the We must know now with the eviction of "crash programme" to meet the need Singapore and the independence of for more doctors in relation to the Singapore now as an independent doctor/population ratio in this country country, how we can carry on the deve­ is a very long one—I mean, it is as lopment of our own medical facilities, old as the Alliance in power. Sir, the the provision for our own medical fact that today backbenchers of the schools and the establishment of our Alliance should so vehemently bring own medical programme without the up the question of the deficiencies in help of the independent State of Singa­ the Government Medical Services pore. This is very necessary, because it indicates how long suffering the people is a bit unfair for us to try and com­ have been, and how dangerously low pare our standards and our require­ our health policies have now reached. ments with that in the State of Singa­ This question of staffing, this question pore, because what happens or has of health policy, cannot to my mind, happened in the State of Singapore—I be resolved, if the Government starts bring this matter up simply because the chasing problems only when they Honourable Member for Batu has al­ arise. I maintain fundamentally, as I ready brought the matter up—at its very maintained nine years ago, that unless best is only confined to or concentrated this new nation embarks upon a new in an urban State, and its medical policy on health, a truly national requirements and provision for medical policy—at that time when we first and health facilities are different from brought it up in the Malayan con­ ours which has a very large rural text—it is now obviously Malaysian in population, a big hinterland and badly context—it will be very difficult for us served rural areas, although it is true to overcome many of the problems that tuberculosis, for example, is a because our system is not a national very important issue both in Singapore system of health. Our system is not as well as here—and we could provide even a civil service, it is not a for more help to the Lady Templer socialised system, it is not even a Hospital. Sir, the question with us, I private system of health, but it is a think, is how to provide increasing queer admixture, and the easiest way medical facilities in the rural areas to of describing it is that it is a remnant, overcome a very important drawback 4899 6 DECEMBER 1965 4900 in this country, and this is the indicate not only a shortage of funds question of infant mortality and what but also a lack of policy and planning. is called child wastage, and as to the difference between infant mortality Now, Sir, with that, I would like to and child wastage, I am sure, the touch on certain issues in detail, and experts of the Honourable Minister to try and indicate to some extent what will tell him. Sir, ever since the first the Government can do, if in fact it survey that was made in 1960 to this has an overall plan. But I must say day we have no further statistics as to that these remarks that I am going to whether there is development in this make, are made haphazardly in the problem, or whether the country has light of the fact that there is no visible actually gone backwards. I have my plan that I can see. Sir, the Honour­ own vague suspicion, that if we now able the Member from Kota Star talk in terms of Malaysia, rather than Selatan has referred, for example, to the States of Malaya, and include the this question of provision of cardiac problem of infant mortality and child units, and he mentioned the fact that wastage, figures for Sabah and Sara­ the Government intends to establish wak .... two new cardiac units in the Kuala Lumpur area—I mean Kuala Lumpur Enche' Bahaman bin Samsudin: On will have two institutions—but this a point of clarification, I mentioned may not be true, as I do know. Sir, all these in my speech just now, but that part of the members of the cardiac unfortunately the Honourable Member unit have been taken over, or have been for Tanjong was not here to listen to selected, from the State of Penang. my speech. And, Sir, I feel that this reference has got two lessons which we would like Dr Lim Chong Eu: Sir, the to bring to the attention of the Honour­ Honourable Minister is quite wrong able Minister of Health. Sir, it is to assume that, because I was not not necessary, first of all, for us to physically present in this House, I did centralise the cardiac unit in the heart not hear his speech. I mean that with of the nation, although Kuala Lumpur the good grace of public funds the is the centre, and, naturally, I make facilities accorded to Members of a plea that when the special units are Parliament are such that one can hear established, the cardiac unit will go to the Minister for Health, even if one Penang. Sir, there is reason in this were sitting inside the toilet. Sir, I bring suggestion, because I have already this matter up because I just wish to mentioned that with the eviction of stress that unless we co-ordinate our Singapore, we must provide a pro­ problems and try to resolve them, it is gramme of development in health, and quite clear that all these provisions particularly in our hospitals, to meet under Personal Emoluments, at the the further training requirements of our very best, is only a cockshy attempt to own doctors and also to provide for the solve what are the basic health pro­ foundations of the development of blems of this country—and that is why, teaching hospitals and eventually of Sir, we get so much dissatisfaction and more medical faculties in this country. so much detailed criticisms that at the So, by developing these special units, very best the Minister can only say, the cardiac unit, the renal unit, and so "We have no money". Sir, if it is a forth and so on, in different areas in fact that we have no money to meet the country, we could very well lay the problems, that is probably under­ down the beginnings of more medical standable, but today it is less under­ faculties, throughout the Federation of standable, in view of the fact that the Malaya, and that the need for a new Assistant Minister of Finance is also medical faculty is becoming increas­ a Member of the medical profession. ingly greater ever since the eviction of The fact that the Member for Parit Singapore. Previously we used to think has brought up the long record of the in terms of one medical faculty in Alliance Government's inability to meet Singapore, the second medical faculty the needs of the people may, perhaps, in Kuala Lumpur, and a third medical 4901 6 DECEMBER 1965 4902 faculty, probably in the distant future, expert professional men in their own in Penang. Sir, I feel that it is necessary fields in the various subjects. now not only for us to think in terms Sir, I commend to the Honourable of just starting our own medical faculty Minister seriously to consider develop­ in Kuala Lumpur, but we must begin ing our medical services along those to think in terms of laying the founda­ lines, because whereas Singapore has tions of new medical faculties elsewhere managed in two years, or 18 months of in Malaysia, probably one in Penang Malaysia, to centralise and to focus and one in the States of Borneo to international medical conferences in spread out the development of our Singapore and thereby created links medical training programme. along academic lines with research institutes all over the world, we are Sir, with regard to the other factor, left behind. And, Sir, now that Singa­ about this question of a cardiac unit, pore is an independent State, the the suggestion brought up both by the Ministry of Health, must with the co­ Member for Batu and the Member for ordination of the Ministry of Education Kota Star Selatan was that we should provide for this kind of facilities build this cardiac unit by sending men because, Sir, it is just this type of abroad and bringing them back, and academic impetus and stimulation here is an instance where Government which I think will help keep our young could have made a lot of savings had men in the service more than anything our own Ministry of Health been a else. a little bit more aware and a little bit quick on the uptake. Sir, last year, Sir, another point which I would like under the World Health Organization, to touch upon immediately is this the Singapore Medical Faculty, and at question of the provision of $10 on that time Singapore was part of Malay­ page 298 under sub-head 1, Director sia, had the advantage of having a man of the I.M.R. Sir, I do not know why of international repute, Professor Roy, such an important Institute should have to come and establish and teach and only a token vote. I do not understand build up a cardiac unit in Singapore. the situation and I hope that the Sir, at that time our Government did Minister will elucidate, but I have cer­ not think it fit, or worth while, sending tain general points to raise on this any member of our medical services to issue. Sir, the Institute of Medical Research in Malaya has become an understudy Professor Roy when he institute of international reputation, was down in Singapore. Sir, the work largely through the work of Sir Roland that was done by the unit during the Ross in the field of research. Therefore, process of building the unit up was so it is necessary for us immediately to try interesting that it created records. For and provide for a man either with long example, the statistical analysis of experience in the Department, who has cardiac cases in Singapore broke had long connections with the history through barriers of academic achieve­ of the Institute itself, or for a man ments which had never been done. So, with international reputation to take I do suggest to the Minister that in over this post, so that the Institute of establishing these special units he Medical Research can become a focal should think not only in terms of send­ point in the development of the ing our men abroad, but he should academic standards of research in rather think in terms of bringing men medicine in this country. But, Sir, to from abroad to teach our staff here. provide only for the development of the Sir, the added advantage of savings Institute of Medical Research, per se, along this line will be that by bringing by itself, is not enough, because as I men of international repute to our own said earlier on, we should have a faculties here, we will be exposing our complete review of the system of health own Departments both in research in and the system of medicine in this the Government Service as well as in country. We have a growing medical the University, and even in private faculty in Petaling Jaya, and also practice, to the good influences of larger numbers of our own citizens 4903 6 DECEMBER 1965 4904 who practise Western medicine. I think page 311. Sub-head 9, O.C.A.R. Con­ that provisions for research have been tributions to Tropical Medical Institute, given in other sections of Head S. 32 United Kingdom, and in the following where we have provisions for research page, page 312, Sub-head 26, there is in filariasis, research in leprosy, provision for Training. Sir, all these research in snake venom and so forth things could have been integrated and and so on. I feel that all the provisions by this integration I think the Ministry should be revised and provided for can effect savings and the Ministry can under one programme of research provide for better efficiency, and the development, so that we can have Ministry will provide for the facilities complete integration of medical re­ which will help to retain its staff within search in this country, and that the the services. medical research could reach the Faculty, the medical reseach could Sir, another aspect of savings is reach the services, and the medical coupled again with two facets of research could reach the private medical development, again which at practice sector, and all of these pro­ one time was centred largely in Singa­ bably integrated under the Institute of pore and which I urged the Ministry Medical Research. For example, if the to take over into our own Malaysian I.M.R. were embarking upon a subject programme. One, Sir, is this question of research, say widespread general of provision for advanced training in statistical evidence of hamorrhagic medicine. Again, the Colombo Plan fever, the programming of the research provisions allowed of a programme of might be conducted in the Institute but alternating years of advanced training grants could be given to doctors in for the Fellowship courses and Government service, in different areas advanced training for the Membership of the country, in different hospitals, in courses which were held in Singapore. different clinics, in different health Last year, and this year again, our centres, grants could be given to doctors Ministry did not make use of the who are working in the Medical facilities by sending enough men. I Faculty and grants could even be given see that nine were sent this year when to selected personnel in private practice, we should probably be sending about all of which to be integrated and co­ 30 or more. It is a question of allowing ordinated by the Institute of Medical them an adequate period of time, Research. Sir, I say this, because I three months off from duty to complete notice that in this .... the course and to sit for their exami­ nations. By that way you can screen Mr Chairman: May I point out to them, because if they pass their exami­ the Honourable Member that the time nations, then they are fit to go on with is short and the Minister has to reply. their studies. We do not have to send So, would you make your speech as them to England to fail and bring short as possible without any medical them back. Sir, the other one, of lectures, as much as possible? course, is the development amongst our own doctors, and this included Dr Lim Chong Eu:I shall, Sir, doctors in Singapore, of an Academy because I am about to end. I thought of Medical Sciences. This group of that by integrating these various things men, with special training and special I could make it shorter; otherwise I aptitude and with post-graduate quali­ would have to take item by item and fications, are banding themselves up that would take much longer time. into this Academy, which, I think, the Honourable Minister is aware of. Mr Chairman: It is left to you. I However, no provision is made in am merely pointing out that the time these estimates, not even a token vote is short and there are other speakers of $10, because an Academy of who wish to give their views. Medical Sciences, I think, can help a great deal in the training of staff, Dr Lim Chong Eu: Yes, Sir. Sir, especially in view of the fact that the for example, there is provision under proposal has been made by this 4905 6 DECEMBER 1965 4906 Academy to train our doctors, both in certainly agree, but I also believe that private practice as well as in Govern­ the Minister of Health, though with the ment service, in this special item of best of faith and goodwill, would be war medicine which in the light of willing to cover those shortages, but confrontation is a very necessary train­ nevertheless, he is not a magician, and ing; and here again, the Government to produce a doctor, as has been said, could effect savings if Government it takes at least six years. At the present were to establish rapport and liaison time our community in Malaya has got with this Academy in order to raise one doctor to about 7,000 of the our standards of health. population, and this has been worked out according to statistics and this is The last point, Sir, is one which I far short of the requirement that more suppose if I make mention of it I developed communities has had the will be immediately referred to the pleasure of having. In the United Development Estimates and I shall do Kingdom, for instance, where the level so, but at this point I would like to of health services is very much more raise it, and that is, last year I did advanced than what it is in our country, make mention of the fact that there they have got one doctor to 930 of the was need for a new wing to the population, and even there they say, General Hospital in Penang, and in "We still have not got enough doctors". view of the fact that the Penang Thus, there is a world shortage of Hospital, with its old traditions, lends doctors and they cannot be turned out itself quickly for the development of a just like frying kachang puteh, for medical centre, I do urge the Honour­ able Minister to be more vigorous in instance, in fifteen minutes. So things asking for a bigger budget in health must develop gradually by process of from his own Cabinet Ministers, be­ evolution and careful planning, and it cause in trying to save through health is no use indulging in wishful thinking we reach a situation where it is fool­ that things can be remedied over a hardy. In the case of treating a patient, short period. No doubt, we realise that if you do not give him the absolutely the health of a country is a most minimum requirement, you might just important factor not only in the as well not spend anything at all, development of the country but also because spending that amount of in the economics of that country. But money might not cure the patient—in what are we to do? We have got an actual fact, you spend it and kill him austerity budget to deal with and we for no reason whatsoever. have got to cut our coat according to the cloth that we have available. But nevertheless, I have been rather sad­ Dato' Dr Haji Megat Khas (Kuala dened when I looked at the Budget and Kangsar): Mr Chairman, Sir, I would I would draw the attention of the take this opportunity to chip in this House to Head S. 32 under "Other long discussion on Supply Head 32 for Charges Annually Recurrent" on page the Ministry of Health because it is 312, and under Sub-head 25, the allo­ obvious now, from the many grouses cation for Stores for the following year and complaints that we have heard will be about $10,082,730. This includes from both sides of the House, that the the year's requirements and the year's allocation or the provision for this requirements, I think, will have to be Ministry for this year is certainly supplemented because that has been the living up to what has been described by routine in the previous years, because the Minister of Finance as an austerity supplies tend to get short not only Budget, and, as such, of course, the towards the end of the year but even Ministry of Health will suffer along in the middle of the year, sometimes at with the other Ministries in its alloca­ the beginning of the year. If I had my tions for the following year. say in the matter—the allocation of Sir, a lot has been said about the $10 million is certainly little—it should shortage of doctors and many other be increased, especially, in face of the forms of personnel in the health emergency that we are facing, when we services of this country, with which I may not be able to get the supplies 4907 6 DECEMBER 1965 4908 when we need it. We have got to build lot of the staff working in these up a reserve. hospitals have been saying, "How can we do our work when we have not got Then I would draw the attention of the tools". Now, for a sum of $100,000 the House to the Special Expenditure for instance, you can hardly get one on the next page 313, and here there decent X-ray set to fit a hospital, in the is a series of allocations that are far General Hospital; as for medical and short to my mind of the actual require­ surgical equipment of half a million ments. Now, if you look at Sub-head dollars, this equipment has to be 33 there is a contribution of $100,000 distributed to all the hospitals within for voluntary bodies for medical and the country! Well, one single forceps is welfare work. This means a reduction going to cost about $12. I know that, of $25,000 on the previous year's because I am a doctor and I have been budget. I cannot understand why, if buying them. Ward and hospital equip­ you want to preserve the health of the ment are all under fair criticism, that country as a whole, that encouragement is to say that these are the very items to the voluntary bodies carry out this that should be given allocation far in form of work should be curbed like excess of what is actually being done; this, but there you are. I know that the then I would draw the attention of the Minister of Health is not a magician, House to the provision under Sub-head as I said. Then again in the next item, 66, Expenses of part-time private Sub-head 34, you have got St. John Medical Practitioners of $15,000. For Ambulance Association and Brigade a sum of $15,000 to be spent in one and the Red Cross, all having their year for the work that is going to be allocations cut, in spite of the fact that given by the private practitioners of the we have been told, "You must be country and all the hospitals, in order prepared, you must expand into the to help the resident members of the rural areas". How can we expand if the staff, is just a drop in the ocean, some­ money is being cut? We have got in thing that goes in between the crevices fact to contract instead of to expand. of the teeth, so to speak. It does bring The Lady Templer Hospital is down to my mind the fact that the Govern­ for $500,000 for the next year, but if ment itself is not convinced that there you remember, we have just had to give is going to be any form of success— another $200,000 just recently, at the that is why they have made such a beginning of the present session, as a small provision for it. Although the supplementary vote. So, the require­ upper limit of the earnings of one ments will have to be supplemented by particular doctor is going to be only another supplementary vote sometimes $400 per month, the Government pro­ perhaps towards the middle of next bably thinks that it is not going to get year, or perhaps towards the end. many of these chaps coming along to Sir, I would like to take Sub-heads do the work. So why make a big 48, 50 and 63 together, because there provision? I think that is a showing up you see that Medical and Surgical of a lack of faith when we draw up Equipment is being allocated a sum of the budget itself. $550,000, Ward and Hospital Equip­ ment $375,000 and under Sub-head 63, Lastly, but by no means least, I X-rays $100,000. This brings up the would draw your attention to Sub-head point that has already been raised by 71, the very last one on the page, the Honourable Member from Tanjong Reserve Emergency Stores for which a that all these allocations could have provision of $5,700,000 was allowed been consolidated and perhaps some last year but for this year it is "nil"— savings could be made on it, because and I think, with all due respects to my I cannot imagine, knowing that a lot of friend, the Minister of Health, who is hospitals in this country today are my good friend and my school mate, I making do with out-dated and out­ think he should have fought tooth and moded equipment, that these will not nail to have something in reserve in have to be replaced, and replaced they times like this, because with an must be, but probably gradually, as a emergency maybe in the form of a 4909 6 DECEMBER 1965 4910 cholera outbreak—it has already started sakit kapada manusia yang lain, ke­ in Kuala Lumpur, floods in Kelantan mudian mereka berkhidmat, maka di- and Trengganu—there may be no end atas asas ini kita menguchapkan sa- to the requirements that will have to be tinggi2 tahniah kapada pegawai2 kita met with from the Emergency Stores. daripada doktor sampai ka-bawah-nya Nevertheless, I am ready and quite di-atas perkhidmatan mereka. Bukan willing to make all allowances for the sahaja, Dato' Pengerusi, mereka ini shortcomings of our Budget and I bekerja di-hospital2 yang telah di-diri- would request the tolerance of my kan oleh Kerajaan, tetapi juga mereka Honourable friends across the floor ini bekerja sampai ka-luar2 bandar, that we must try and make do with menaiki motor bot, berjalan kaki dan what we have because, I think, in the sa-umpama-nya bagi menyampaikan last course we can always have recourse kewajipan mereka sa-bagai orang yang to supplementary votes, although bertanggong-jawab di-atas kesihatan supplementary votes come for more ra'ayat dan malahan kalau kita tengok severe questioning when they do come di-dalam Anggaran ini kita nampak up, but still let us not give up hope beberapa pegawai2 juga bertugas ter- but work with what we have; and hadap orang2 asli kita yang jauh masok although we have not got the tools, let ka-hutan2—juga mendapat perkhid­ us get on with the work and do what matan yang baik daripada mereka. we can with what we have. Ada pun kekurangan2 kita di-dalam 2 Mr Chairman: Saya suka hendak pegawai perubatan ini tidak-lah dapat bertanya Yang Berhormat Menteri kita tidakkan ada-nya kekurangan itu dan oleh kerana itu kita telah merayu, Kesihatan, berapa lama agak-nya dia 2 hendakkan waktu hendak menjawab. kalau saya tidak salah, kapada doktor yang membuka despansari-nya sendiri Enche' Bahaman bin Samsudin: supaya mereka itu memberikan khid­ Sa-tengah jam. mat mereka kapada Kerajaan, kapada rumah2 sakit, dalam tempoh yang Tuan Haji Othman bin Abdullah tertentu, dan bukan pula sahaja mereka (Hilir Perak): Dato' Pengerusi, saya itu berkhidmat chara sukarela, tetapi mendapat bayaran agak lumayan juga. mengambil kesempatan ini menguchap- 2 kan sa-tinggi2 shukor kapada perkhid­ Jadi kekurangan ini sa-hingga memak- sakan kita mengambil doktor2 daripada matan kesihatan dan perubatan dari- 2 pada Kementerian ini yang telah luar negeri untok mengatasi kesulitan mengambil berat soal2 kesihatan ra'ayat ini. 2 dan memberikan khidmat mereka Tetapi pada fahaman saya, kalau sa-kadar yang mereka dapat buat dan 2 sa-kira-nya Faculty Perubatan kita memberikan usaha mereka bagi men- sekarang ini berjalan dengan baik dan chegah sa-barang penyakit yang boleh mahasiswa2 kita sudah mula di-tempat- menimbulkan berjangkit dari satu kan di-faculty2 itu, kita akan dapat, orang kapada satu orang yang lain dan insha Allah daripada satu masa ka- menengok kapada perkhidmatan2 yang 2 2 satu masa mengurangkan kekurangan di-berikan oleh pegawai kita daripada kita yang kita berhajat supaya kesi­ doktor-nya sampai-lah kapada ka- 2 hatan kita ini, kesihatan ra'ayat kita, bawah -nya itu. Perkhidmat mereka ini, dapat terpelihara mengikut ukoran pada faham saya, lebeh mementingkan yang sesuai dengan kemajuan zaman perasaan kemanusiaan daripada pera­ 2 ini. Hendak kita bedzakan negeri kita saan kewangan, walau pun pada masa ini dengan England, dengan Amerika, kebelakangan ini kita ada mendengar mithal-nya, jauh benar-lah, Tuan ada permogokan atau tuntutan2 gaji 2 2 Pengerusi, kerana kita ini baharu men- daripada pegawai di-rumah sakit, chuba dalam beberapa hal termasok- tetapi ini tidak-lah merupakan satu lah dalam perubatan, bagaimana hen­ ugutan yang akan meimmdorkan chara dak menghadapi kesulitan2 kita. perubatan kita di-Malaysia ini. Atas perasaan mereka itu sa-bagai sa-orang Satu lagi, saya rasa, kesulitan kita ini manusia dan kemudian merasakan bukan sahaja oleh kerana orang2 kita 4911 6 DECEMBER 1965 4912 ini sudah bagitu mundor fikiran-nya layanan itu tentu-lah agak kurang dan tidak bagitu memperchayai' ubat2 daripada layanan kita di-rumah, tetapi daripada doctor, mereka lebeh per- walau bagaimana pun layanan itu ada, chaya kapada bomoh, kapada jampi2, walau pun ta' bagitu memuaskan hati, serapah2, mithal-nya, tetapi lama- itu dapat-lah kita perbaiki dari satu kelamaan mereka itu yakin juga dengan masa ka-satu masa, tetapi yang perubatan sa-chara modern ini, bukan menarek perhatian saya ia-itu di-sini sahaja itu yang menjadi kesulitan ka­ di-hospital kita ini banyak free, pada pegawai2 perubatan kita dan banyak perchuma, sa-hingga botol pun menghadapi masaalah masharakat, hendak minta kapada dispensari kita: tetapi juga chara perhubongan di- mana botol, kalau dia beri mixture, antara pegawai itu dengan ra'ayat men­ kalau dia beri, kalau beri free—minta jadi satu hal yang patut di-fikirkan. botol free, sumbat2 botol semua Kalau di-England mithal-nya, atau di- hendak free. Ini chara kita. Chara Amerika, atau di-mana2 negeri yang pemikiran kita. Ra'ayat kita ini kita telah maju, soal perhubongan ini tidak kena sabar bagaimana hendak men- menjadi perkara yang berat, sebab didek mereka ini supaya mereka mem- jalan sudah sempurna, rumah2, orang2, punyai' tanggong-jawab yang lebeh itu ta' banyak negeri2 orang—itu tidak berat, yang lebeh mendalam terhadap banyak sungai2 yang menghalangkan, kesihatan mereka itu sendiri. Kalau 2 orang itu bersesak2—kita di-sini ber- ta' banyak paya , ta' banyak gunong- 2 ganang macham negeri kita dan udara sesak , Tuan Pengerusi, dia ta' pandai kita pun tengok-lah. Tuan Pengerusi, queue sendiri, tetapi hendak kita baharu-lah ini dengan tidak semena2 bezakan dengan kita, hendak kita di-Kelantan dan Trengganu telah meng­ tengok macham di-England dengan negeri2 lain, dia orang kalau sudah hadapi satu kemalangan banjir yang 2 kita tidak dapat menerka-nya, dan bersesak dengan sendiri-nya dia orang terpaksa Pegawai2 Perubatan kita be- berator, macham naik bas, dia berator kejar ka-sana, bekejar ka-sini, untok sendiri. Kalau tengok ambil ubat, menghalangkan sa-barang penyakit berator sendiri. Di-sini tidak—siapa yang boleh timbul daripada wabak2 chepat, siapa dahulu! Jadi, bagai- 2 mana-kah pegawai itu ta' marah yang saperti itu. Jadi, kekurangan 2 2 kita dalam sudut ini memang jelas, kadang —bukan ta' ada pegawai tetapi dengan keinsafan kita, akan kesihatan kita itu, macham Pegawai dapat kita atasi dari satu masa ka-satu Dispensary pemarah, kasar—memang masa. ada, tetapi di-tekan dengan keadaan udara, perbuatan, dengan muka, Satu lagi, Tuan Pengerusi, yang kita dengan chakap yang terlayan ini. Jadi, nampak bagaimana Perkhidmatan ini-lah dua belah pehak kita harus Kesihatan kita dalam negeri ini baik, memikirkan bagaimana chara-nya yang kita hendak memben nasihat mithal-nya, kalau kita masok hospital, 2 masok hospital kebanyakan hospital yang baik kapada orang kita, dan 2 oleh tugas Jabatan Kesihatan ini mem- kita ini membuat layanan yang sa- 2 kadar yang boleh, tetapi hendak buat beri penerangan yang lebeh berguna macham rumah sendiri, tentu-lah kapada ra'ayat kita supaya dapat payah. Hendakkan makanan yang mereka itu menjaga kesihatan itu sedap, segala2-nya sedap, semua-nya dengan perasaan tanggong-jawab me­ sedap, sedangkan kelmarin kita reka. dengar, Tuan Pengerusi, hendak naik Bagitu-lah, Tuan Pengerusi, perkhid­ kapal haji pergi ka-Mekah, bayar matan yang saya nampak sa-kali $1,000 cabin A, Cabin Satu—itu pun imbas, sa-kali pun saya ini bukan-lah makan ta' sedap, sebab orang ramai. sa-orang yang ahli dalam soal per­ Kita khenduri pun, Tuan Pengerusi ubatan itu, tetapi sa-kali imbas, kita kita khenduri panggil dua ribu orang, nampak bahawa layanan kapada walau pun kerbau baharu kita sem- ra'ayat oleh pegawai2 dan rumah2 beleh, ada makanan itu tidak sedap, sakit kita, patut dan kita berasa sebab terlalu ramai. Jadi, ini kita bangga, terutama sa-kali sekarang ini gunakan sadikit kepala bahawa sudah mula-lah orang2 kampong tidak 4913 6 DECEMBER 1965 4914 lagi menchari bidan2 yang main hem- ada dalam saku-nya. Jadi, oleh kerana bus, kalau hendak bersalin, dia tidak manusia itu memandang wang, hembus! Dia chari bidan2 kampong, memandang kekayaan, memandang bidan2 yang berkelayakan, yang di- ketinggian, rumah besar, dengan segala tempatkan oleh Kerajaan di-kelinik2 kemewahan—itu lebeh tinggi daripada bidan umpama-nya, dan saya berseru- moral kemanusiaan, mereka mening- lah kapada ra'ayat negeri ini supaya galkan Jabatan2 Kerajaan, bukan oleh menghormati bidan2 ini, jangan sampai kerana doktor2 kita itu tidak mendapat mereka itu di-chabul, di-tarek, di-tipu layanan yang baik daripada Kerajaan. macham kita bacha dalam surat Pendapatan start mula2 $810 kalau khabar baharu2 ini. Dia kata perem- bagitu bagini dapat-lah $1,000 lebeh, puan dia sakit, dia bawa bidan ini, pendapatan-nya. Itu satu pembayaran rupa-nya dia hendak menchuba buat yang lumayan, tetapi oleh kerana dia jahat kapada bidan ini. Jadi, kalau 2 itu ada competition, ada persaingan macham ini mentality orang kita dengan kawan2 yang lain, kawan2 terhadap pegawai yang berkhidmat, yang telah membuka dispensari2 ini, lebeh banyak perasaan kemanusiaan- kelinik2 ini, dia kata awak ini bodoh, nya daripada hawa nafsu-nya, kemu- buat apa awak dudok di-hospital, dian kita tekan dengan perasaan hawa awak chuma mendapat $800. Kalau nafsu di-atas, dia nanti lari. Kalau dia awak buat satu kelinik dengan saya, lari, susah-lah kita, susah-lah ra'ayat atau awak share dengan saya, kita di-kampong. Jadi, kita merayu kapada boleh buat duit, dalam masa dua ra'ayat kita supaya menghormati tahun, kita jadi millionaire. mereka2 yang berkhidmat kerana kemanusiaan ini. Ahli Yang Berhormat daripada Tuan Pengerusi, saya suka me- Batu, kalau mengikut sejarah-nya, ia- nimbulkan masaalah kekurangan dok- lah sa-orang yang sa-rupa macham tor dalam negeri kita ini. Yang sa- kita, sa-orang yang miskin juga, sa- benar pada fahaman saya, kita tidak orang yang tidak mempunyai ke- dudokan yang agak lumayan sa-masa mempunyai kekurangan doktor. Dok- 2 tor2 kita bersepah2—banyak sa-kali. dia kanak sampai dia menjadi doktor Kalau kita berjalan di-Batu Road yang pada permulaan-nya. Tetapi sekarang sekarang ini bernama Jalan Tuanku menjadi sa-orang yang paling million­ Abdul Rahman, kita banyak berjumpa aire sa-kali di-sapanjang Batu Road. kelinik2, di-antara kelinik itu ia-lah Dari mana wang ini dia dapat? Ada- Clinic Tan yang di-punyai oleh Ahli kah perasaan kemanusiaan? Tidak Yang Berhormat dari Batu dan sa- daripada penindasan terhadap ra'ayat panjang2 itu ada sahaja doktor2 yang oleh doktor2 yang saperti itu. Chuba, membuka kelinik-nya sendiri. Ini ber- Tuan Pengerusi, ra'ayat susah, ra'ayat ma'ana bahawa kita tidak kekurangan ini kalau dia sakit kepala, sakit mata doktor. Yang kekurangan doktor ia- kurang tidor, sakit hidong, sakit perut, lah pegawai2 Kerajaan yang bekerja 2 buang ayer tidak chukup, dia mula di-dalam rumah sakit kita—itu yang chari doktor. Kalau chari doktor, pergi kurang. Orang ini bukan-kah ra'ayat ka-hospital kena queue, lama, 2, 3 Malaysia, macham Dr Tan, mithal- jam, perut dia tidak sedap. Jadi kata nya, yang membuka di-Batu Road, kawan, "Esh, tidak usah ini di- bukan-lah dia ini ra'ayat Malaysia— dia ini ra'ayat Malaysia—tetapi kenapa hospital, ubat pun tidak baik, ini free tidak bekerja untok perkhidmatan punya fasal tidak baik". Fasal bagi kemanusiaan di-hospital. Ini soal-nya free tidak baik, pergi jumpa Dr Tan, lain, Tuan Pengerusi. Soal-nya ia-lah bagus, di-sana ada di-Batu Road, baik soal kepentingan diri dengan kepen- punya, sa-kali injection $8.00, bagus. tingan masharakat. Kalau manusia Sa-kali ubat bagus, pergi ka-sana, memandang kepentingan diri lebeh Tuan Pengerusi. Bila pergi .... besar daripada kepentingan masha­ rakat, dia tidak memandang ke­ Mr Chairman: Saya suka hendak manusiaan itu lebeh tinggi daripada mengingatkan tentang masa. Itu harga ubat, atau harga wang yang sahaja. 4915 6 DECEMBER 1965 4916

Tuan Haji Othman bin Abdullah: harga-nya yang di-beri tahu kapada Itu sebab saya hendak cheritakan, saya chuma tidak lebeh daripada 40 Tuan Pengerusi, perasaan dan peng- sen pada 4 gram, 4 gram satu botol alaman saya. isi-nya dan tidak lebeh harga-nya daripada 40 sen. Tetapi berapa dia Pergi berjumpa dengan private charge kapada ra'ayat, $5.00—berapa doctor, yang kita hendak pergi ber­ kali double dia sudah charge kapada jumpa dengan dia, kita menyatakan, ra'ayat? Bukan ini-kah menghisap dia tanya pada kita, "Apa macham darah ra'ayat lebeh daripada Sharikat Enche', sakit apa?" Dia pula tanya Kenderaan Matahari. Ini $28.00 pada kita, bukan dia chari ubat, dengan dia punya kudrat, tetapi 40 tengok kita punya pulse, tengok sen punya modal dia charge sampai kita punya apa—tidak! Ini dia $8.00, $10.00, bukan-kah ini meng­ tanya pada kita pula, "Apa sakit?" Kalau kita tahu apa yang kita punya hisap darah ra'ayat lagi, tulang sum- sakit, apa guna kita berjumpa dengan som pun di-hisap-nya. Tetapi oleh doktor! Tetapi pergi jumpa dengan kerana orang dzaif, orang lemah, doktor Kerajaan dengan chara lembut orang tidak ada demam bagini, bayar- bagitu bagini, dia kata doktor Kera­ lah, saya pergi kedai-lah dahulu, jaan kasar, doktor Kerajaan chuchok apa hendak buat, pinjam-lah gelang dia sampai sakit berdetus sampai ka- isteri—jual. Harga-nya chuma 40 sen, dalam, sebab jarum-nya itu tidak tetapi dengan kerana dia dengan berasah. Doktor sana jarum itu juga punya gaya baju-nya itu nah kena tetapi di-asah sadikit, bagitu bagini, $10.00. Tetapi di-hospital bagi ubat di-beri sa-biji injection sampai $8.00. perchuma—beri sahaja, Tuan Penge­ Tidak ada apa rasa oleh ra'ayat, pada rusi, itu juga ubat-nya di-buang oleh hal, Tuan Pengerusi, dia da tang itu orang ramai, fasal apa? Fasal free, kena flu, dia sakit hidong tidak betul fasal free, dia buang. Fasal apa Kera­ exhaust-nya keluar, dia berjumpa jaan kita boleh beri bagitu free? Fasal dengan doktor atau dia sakit demam harga-nya 40 sen sahaja. Jadi apa lagi pialu—demam2 sadikit—dia pergi ber­ kalau ra'ayat bayar chukai bagitu jumpa dengan doktor atau dia ada bagini, Kerajaan hendak buat dengan gastric atau dia ada apa rasa2 tidak baik kapada ra'ayat, beri ubat free 40 sedap dalam perut-nya—dia pergi ber­ sen, kerana dia hanya 40 sen sahaja jumpa dengan doktor, sesak nafas tetapi pergi kapada private doctor— kerana asthma, dia pergi jumpa ah! siap! Dekat hendak pilehan raya, doktor. Ada enam tujoh perkara yang boleh-lah free! common, yang menjadi perkara biasa 2 kapada ra'ayat, pergi jumpa doktor, Tuan Pengerusi, dia beri, kadang bila pergi doktor, doktor pun buat-lah kalau sakit kepala, dia beri aspirin. Aspirin itu berapa harga-nya bagi 10 pepereksaan—maksud-nya bagaimana 2 orang menghisap darah ra'ayat ini, tablets? Dia charge $5.00. Ini sakit pergi berjumpa dengan private doctor, dalam muka berapa dia punya harga, private doctor ini pun layan-lah orang chuma $1.00 untok 20 biji pill. Itu dia ini baik2 dan beri ubat. Sa-telah dia kata 3 biji makan dalam satu hari dia ini tengok sini, tengok sana, lama2-nya, charge berapa ringgit?—$6.00. Kalau Tuan Pengerusi, 5 minit dia consult, dia demam pula dia beri penicillin dia tanya kawan itu, "Apa sakit, ada tablets harga-nya $1.80 dia charge berak, tidak ada berak, ada buang $7.00—10 biji ini untok di-makan 3 ayer besar, tidak ada buang ayer hari. Banyak2 dia beri orang sakit ini besar," di-tanya balek pada kita. Kita dia beri penicilin injection. Kalau dia kata, "Ada". Kita kata bagitu bagini— beri penicillin injection harga-nya 10 5 minit chukup. Pergi jumpa dengan c.c. harga-nya 76 sen sahaja, yang dia punya assistant, dia beri injec­ biasa di-gunakan kapada orang itu tion—$10.00. Apa yang di-beri-nya demam-nya chuma 2 c.c. sahaja— kalau flu, kalau hidong-nya tidak bukan sampai 10 c.c. 2 c.c. berapa sen, sedap, dia beri apa, Tuan Pengerusi, 15 sen—dia charge $10.00! Bukan-kah ubat-nya mixture—champoran ubat— ini menghisap darah ra'ayat. 15 sen champoran ubat dia beri, mithal-nya, sa-kali injection, tetapi kita katakan 4917 6 DECEMBER 1965 4918 $10.00. Chuba, Tuan Pengerusi, fikir- bagi orang asthma. Tetapi orang, ke­ kan siapa yang menghisap darah rana orang kena penyakit asthma ini, ra'ayat? Ini-lah orang supaya kita tidak sedap badan, sa-kali dia injection meminta mereka berkhidmat. Itu-lah hilang nafas dia, $20.00 pun dia bayar. yang saya katakan daripada mula Ini-lah chara bagaimana orang2 kita uchapan tadi, doktor2 dan orang2 yang kekurangan doktor dalam negeri ini. bekerja, pegawai2 Kerajaan sekarang Sebab orang2 yang meninggalkan ini lebeh mengutamakan kepentingan pejabat, meninggalkan perkhidmatan kemanusiaan daripada kepentingan yang ada di-hospital, lebeh meman- kaki dia sendiri. Kalau dia tidak ada dang kepentingan masa hadapan dia, perasaan kemanusiaan, barangkali, lebeh daripada yang lain. Kita seka­ orang ini semua akan keluar daripada rang sedang menghadapi masaalah hospital, bekerja sendiri, berapa dapat cholera, mithal-nya, dalam negeri senang. Mana doktor yang tidak men- kita—di-bandar kita ini—cheret-beret jadi senang, mana doktor tidak kaya, Kita di-minta supaya ra'ayat pergi mana doktor tidak menjadi million­ suntek free, ra'ayat tidak mahu free, aire? Fasal apa? Dari mana dia dapat tidak mahu pergi. Sa-tengah2-nya tidak wang? Bukan dia ada kebun getah, hendak jumpa, dia pergi jumpa balek dia chuma ada injection, jarum itu private doctor, di-kenakan $10.00— sahaja! Sa-kali injection $10.00. kalau tidak awak mati kata dia. Harga 15 sen di-jual $10.00—berapa $10.00 lagi bererti harga-nya chuma kali dia sudah menghisap darah 15 sen sahaja sa-kali injection. Jadi, ra'ayat! Tuan Pengerusi, ini-lah yang saya katakan .... Berchakap berkenaan dengan hendak membela ra'ayat, bagi-lah free, tengok Mr Chairman: Masa sudah sampai. apa macham! Ini yang kita minta supaya ra'ayat pergi ka-hospital. Ada Tuan Haji Othman bin Abdullah: kita punya kelinik, kita adakan Ya, sadikit sahaja untok saya hendak kelinik, kita ada Health Centre kita, tutup. kita ada hospital pergi ka-sana—free. Bayar 10 sen, 20 sen. Saya suka Ini-lah yang saya katakan, supaya hendak menchadangkan kapada Men- kekurangan doktor ini dapat di-atasi. teri yang berkenaan, chuba chari Chara-nya orang2 membuat private ikhtiar supaya di-kenakan wang di- practice ini, Tuan Pengerusi, orang2 dalam hospital kita itu, kalau di-sana, yang membuat amalan sendiri, di-beri di-kelinik private, di-kenakan $10.00, Undang2—peratoran2 yang chukup— kita kenakan $1.00 sa-kali suntek. Dia mithal-nya kita beri dia harga ubat, punya ubat sama, chuma kekuatan-nya berapa harga ubat yang mesti di- penicillin juga, sama2 tetapi kita com­ berikan kapada orang ramai. pete dengan dia betul2. Itu kita akan mendapat layanan daripada ra'ayat Ta' mahu dengan sa-kehendak hati sebab kita kerana kita free ini yang dia sa-orang2, itu satu. Yang kedua, ra'ayat kata ini tidak bagus bukan oleh kerana dia kaya dalam negeri ini, kerana ubat tidak bagus kerana free senang menchari duit, dia terpaksa punya fasal. memberikan khidmat di-rumah sakit, sa-kurang2-nya dua hari dalam sa- Tuan Pengerusi, dia kata kalau minggu—mesti berikan 2 hari dalam sa-kira-nya dua jarum itu mahal. sa-minggu, dan jangan pandang sangat Jarum itu berapa sen sangat, dia duit $400.00 atau berapa ratus ringgit. punya botol berapa sen sangat, Tuan Dan control yang hendak di-buat oleh Pengerusi, dan boleh di-pakai ber- Kerajaan terhadap mereka2 ini musta- bulan2, dia sudah hisap habis semua hak sa-kali sa-bagaimana negeri2 lain sa-kali wang baharu dia beli-nya yang yang telah buat, berjumpa dengan lain yang baharu. Kalau asthma di- doctor private, dia bagi sahaja surat beri injection, di-beri injection mithal- bagitu, dia berjumpa tempat lain, dia nya, harga dia $1.75 sahaja, tetapi tidak beli ubat sekarang ini bagitu. Jadi sa-kali sa-botol itu dia beri, dia beri control2 yang patut di-kawal oleh Kera­ berapa c.c. sahaja, harga dia 171/2 sen jaan—oleh Kementerian ini supaya 4919 6 DECEMBER 1965 4920 jangan ada berlaku hisapan darah di- Yang Berhormat Menteri, atau pun antara satu manusia dengan manusia kapada saya sendiri supaya dapat yang lain dengan menghilangkan kami mengambil langkah supaya sural2 semua sa-kali rasa kemanusiaan. itu chepat di-jawab. Yang Berhormat Akhir-nya, Tuan Pengerusi, sa-kali daripada Kota Star Selatan itu juga telah banyak memberi pandangan, ada lagi saya katakan—tidak ada masa 2 lagi saya hendak berchakap, sa-benar- pandangan yang baik dan berguna, tetapi ada juga yang saya rasa nya saya sudah sediakan uchapan ini 2 chukup panjang, Tuan Pengerusi, saya tudohan -nya yang di-lemparkan ka­ 2 pada Kementerian ini, nampak-nya hendak buka tembelang doktor ter- 2 utama Ahli Yang Berhormat daripada berat sadikit. Chadangan yang di- Batu ini sa-bagaimana dia menghisap kemukakan oleh Yang Berhormat— darah ra'ayat, tetapi oleh kerana yang berguna itu sa-bagai mengadakan masa itu tidak ada, ta' apa-lah, Tuan perhubongan di-antara orang ramai Pengerusi .... dengan pehak rumah sakit, atau pegawai2 rumah sakit, atau kaki- Mr Chairman: Jangan menggunakan tangan rumah sakit—ini telah pun perkataan macham itu, ta' elok-lah Kementerian Kesihatan mengambil di-chakapkan dalam Rumah yang satu pandangan yang berat dan telah mulia ini. mengadakan satu Jawatan-kuasa Muhibbah. Jawatan-kuasa ini telah pun di-tubohkan boleh di-katakan Tuan Haji Othman bin Abdullah: 2 2 Itu-lah fasal-nya saya tidak berchakap. hampir di-semua rumah sakit dalam Jadi akhir-nya saya memberikan seluroh Persekutuan Tanah Melayu ini tahniah kapada pegawai2 bukan ka­ dan telah mendapat sambutan yang sangat baik kerana banyak-lah masa- pada Menteri sahaja, tidak—kapada 2 pegawai2 kita yang sudah bersusah alah yang telah berlaku telah dapat payah untok menjaga kesihatan ra'ayat di-selesaikan. dan mudah2an mereka memandang kesihatan ra'ayat dan peri kemanu­ Berkenaan dengan Surgery Unit siaan akan lebeh di-utamakan dari­ atau pun Plastic Surgery Unit, ini ada- pada kepentingan2 saperti doktor2 lah satu chadangan yang baik dan Yang Berhormat daripada Batu itu, pehak Kementerian akan mengambil terima kaseh. perhatian dalam soal ini. Perkara ini juga banyak di-antara Ahli2 Yang The Parliamentary Secretary to the Berhormat—termasok Ahli daripada Minister of Health (Enche' Ibrahim bin Tanjong—yang juga berchakap ber­ Abdul Rahman): Tuan Pengerusi, saya kenaan dengan masaalah itu. akan chuba menjawab bagi pehak Yang Berhormat Menteri Kesihatan atas Dan berkenaan dengan Perkhidmatan chadangan2, atau pun pandangan2 dan Kesihatan di-luar bandar, saya berasa kritik2 yang di-buat oleh beberapa dukachita sadikit Ahli Yang Berhor­ orang Ahli Yang Berhormat dalam mat daripada Tanjong yang banyak Dewan ini, pertama-nya kapada Ahli menegor Kerajaan mengatakan yang Yang Berhormat daripada Kota Star Kementerian ini tidak mengambil berat Selatan. Yang Berhormat itu telah sama sa-kali. Jadi, kalau-lah Yang menudoh pegawai2 tadbir dalam Ke­ Berhormat daripada Tanjong ini dengar menterian Kesihatan ini tidak me­ uchapan Yang Berhormat Menteri ngambil berat kapada surat2 yang di- pada mula2 tadi, tentu-lah Yang Ber­ hantar oleh pegawai2 perubatan dan hormat itu tidak mengatakan yang ini-lah sebab2-nya—salah satu sebab— Kementerian Kesihatan ini tidak me­ yang pegawai2 perubatan, atau doktor2 ngambil berat berkenaan dengan kesi­ telah bosan bekerja dan berhenti dari­ hatan pendudok2 yang tinggal di-luar pada pekerjaan. Jadi perkara ini pehak bandar. Dalam uchapan itu, Yang Ber­ Kementerian ini tidak tahu dan saya hormat telah pun memberi tahu berharap-lah kalau sa-kira-nya ada beratus2 kelinik, berpuloh2 pusat ke­ perkara2 itu berlaku, boleh-lah Yang sihatan yang besar dan kechil telah Berhormat itu sendiri beritahu kapada di-buat dan angka2 kematian daripada 4921 6 DECEMBER 1965 4922

12.4 pada tahun 1957 telah turun 8.1 juta yang telah di-untokkan untok pada tahun 1964. Jadi ini menunjok- ranchangan mengubat, atau pun men- kan langkah2 yang tegas sedang di- chegah penyakit T.B. Tetapi dalam ambil oleh pehak Kementerian Ke- peruntokan ini barangkali Yang Ber­ sihatan untok membaiki lagi kesihatan hormat itu melihat $160,000 sahaja, pendudok2 yang tinggal di-luar bandar tetapi kalau Yang Berhormat itu yang kita tahu beberapa tahun telah membuat analisa sadikit, atau pun di-biarkan oleh pehak penjajah dahulu. semak sadikit kapada muka 1 sampai Saya tidak dapat-lah memberi butir2 muka2 yang berikut, dia akan dapati yang detail, atau halusi berkenaan ia-itu National T.B. Centre $746,604. dengan perbelanjaan, atau pun bilangan Elaun dan lain2 berkenaan dengan kelinik2 kerana masa, saya rasa, tidak Central T.B. Centre itu $534,000. mengizinkan, walau bagaimana pun Kemudian peruntokan kapada Rumah saya akan chuba merengkaskan Sakit Lady Templer T.B. duit sa- jawapan2 saya kapada Ahli2 Yang banyak $500,000. National T.B. Control Berhormat yang lain. $1,150,000 dan $106,000. Jadi semua- nya berjumlah, Tuan Pengerusi, sa- Berkenaan dengan Health Education banyak lebeh daripada $2.8 juta. Ini atau pun Pelajaran Kesihatan ini telah tidak termasok perbelanjaan orang2 juga di-bangkitkan oleh Yang Berhor­ yang maseh mengidap penyakit T.B. mat daripada Kota Star Selatan dan yang ada di-hospital2, atau pun di- juga Ahli Yang Berhormat dari rumah2 sakit daerah ia-itu lebeh Tanjong. Pehak Kementerian telah kurang 6,000 orang yang ada di- pun ada sa-orang pegawai yang telah seluroh Persekutuan Tanah Melayu mendapat latehan di-America, di- dalam rumah sakit. Filipina dan juga beberapa tahun di- Jitra dan telah di-tempatkan dalam Berkenaan dengan suntek atau im­ Kementerian ini. Dan ada juga pena- munisation yang di-bangkitkan oleh sihat2, atau pun pakar2 daripada Yang Berhormat daripada Kota Star Pertubohan Kesihatan Sa-dunia ia-itu Selatan, pehak Kementerian ini telah Sanitary Engineer dan sa-orang pakar pun menjalankan usaha menyuntek ia- berkenaan dengan Jurutera Keber- itu small-pox, atau penyakit chachar sehan—Sanitary Engineer dan Sani­ pada tahun 1964 sa-banyak 280,253 tarian. Pegawai2 ini sedang melawat orang. Dan untok penyakit tekak atau ka-kampong2 untok menyiasat bagai­ diptheria, whooping cough, tetanus sa- mana hendak menggali perigi supaya banyak 120,000 orang. Ini tidak-lah dapat ayer yang jerneh, atau pun ayer benar menyatakan yang pendudok2 yang baik untok di-minum oleh pen­ luar bandar lain2 lagi tidak mendapat dudok2 yang tinggal jauh terpenchil suntekan daripada pehak Kementerian di-dalam kampong2. ini. Dan sa-lain daripada itu juga ada Ahli Yang Berhormat daripada Parit, beberapa orang Ahli Yang Berhormat saya tidak mahu-lah menjawab, oleh yang telah berchakap berkenaan sebab sa-benar-nya berkenaan dengan dengan peruntokan untok penyakit pembenaan rumah sakit dan sa-bagai- T.B. sangat-lah kekurangan. Ini telah nya ada-lah masok dalam ranchangan pun di-bangkitkan oleh Ahli Yang Development Estimates dan bila kita Berhormat daripada Tanjong, dan membinchangkan Anggaran Perbelan­ jaan Pembangunan, saya akan mem­ daripada Batu terutama-nya. Kapada beri jawapan kapada Yang Berhormat, Ahli Yang Berhormat daripada Batu, tetapi walau bagaimana pun Yang saya rasa Ahli Yang Berhormat yang Berhormat Menteri dalam uchapan-nya baharu berchakap sa-bentar tadi— telah memberitahu ia-itu pembenaan Yang Berhormat daripada Hilir Perak akan di-mulakan dalam Ranchangan telah pun berchakap panjang lebar Malaysia Yang Pertama ia-itu tahun berkenaan dengan Ahli Yang Berhor­ 1966 hingga 1970. mat itu, tetapi saya suka-lah memberi- tahu kapada Ahli Yang Berhormat Sekarang saya suka-lah mengambil daripada Batu, ia-itu hampir2 $2.8 bahagian berkenaan dengan tudohan2 4923 6 DECEMBER 1965 4924 yang di-lemparkan oleh Ahli Yang ada kita dapat tahun ini kurang atau Berhormat daripada Batu. Ahli Yang lebeh, tetapi sa-benar-nya tahun ini Berhormat daripada Batu juga telah kita dapat $3.8 juta lebeh daripada pun menudoh dengan hebat-nya ber- tahun sudah, oleh sebab tahun sudah kenaan Setia-usaha Tetap Kementerian kita ada membeli ubat2 untok Setor ini, jadi banyak-lah Ahli Yang Berhor­ Dharurat Simpanan S. 32 muka 314, mat daripada Hilir Perak telah pun Pechahan-kepala 71 yang memakan menjawab. Jadi, pehak Kementerian belanja $5,700,000 tahun sudah, tetapi Kesihatan ada-lah perchaya penoh tahun ini tidak di-belanjakan satu kapada semua pegewai2 yang ada sen pun. Jadi ini berma'ana yang dalam Kementerian, dan juga dalam pehak Kementerian ini telah mendapat rumah2 sakit sakalian, dan kita sa-banyak $3.8 juta lebeh daripada patut-lah menguchapkan terima kaseh tahun sudah. Dan beliau juga telah kapada segala pegawai2 yang memang pun mengatakan yang tiap2 tahun bertugas hari ini sunggoh pun kita pehak Kementerian terpaksa bagi tahu bilangan orang sakit bertambah, balek wang kapada Kementerian Ke- bilangan tempat tidor bertambah, wangan oleh sebab tidak dapat kita tetapi bilangan kaki-tangan rumah habiskan perbelanjaan. Sa-benar-nya sakit itu tidak bagitu menchukupi, memang benar—ada juga 2 atau 3 tetapi walau bagaimana pun pehak tahun yang sudah, pehak Kementerian pegawai2 di-rumah sakit dan juga ini tidak dapat menggunakan wang itu pehak pegawai2 Kementerian telah pun kesemua-nya, sebab perkara anggaran menjalankan tugas-nya dengan baik. untok mengambil doktor2. Pada tahun Berkenaan dengan doktor2 yang telah 1965 mengikut anggaran kita akan pun berhenti oleh sebab tidak puas dapat memenohi untok jawatan sa- hati berkenaan dengan tangga gaji banyak 650 orang doktor, tetapi hanya atau pun jawatan superscale dan lain2 kita dapat 450 orang. Kita dapat per- lagi, ini memang pehak Kementerian untokan wang untok 650 orang doktor, sedang mengambil langkah untok tetapi hanya 450 orang doktor yang mengatasi perkara ini. kita dapat. Maka terpaksa-lah wang peruntokan untok 200 orang lagi itu, Berkenaan dengan Khaw Kai-Boh 2 kita kena bagi balek tidak boleh Report, ia-itu Pegawai Perubatan simpan. Jadi kalau sa-saorang doktor yang ada diploma D.P.H. atau Diploma itu $12,000.00 gaji-nya sa-tahun, kalau of Public Health ia-itu diploma untok 200 orang tentu-lah perbelanjaan-nya ilmu kesihatan, akan mendapat sa- banyak. banyak $350 sa-bulan dan Pegawai2 Perubatan yang tidak ada diploma, Yang Berhormat itu juga menga­ tetapi bekerja di-luar bandar untok takan ada sa-orang chemist yang ada kesihatan akan mendapat $175. Ahli Ph.D.—doktor dalam pharmacy tetapi Yang Berhormat daripada Batu menga- Ph.D. ini bukan doctor of pharmacy, takan yang Kerajaan belum buat apa2 tetapi doctor of philosophy dan philo­ lagi, tetapi saya suka bagi tahu kapada sophy pula ada bermacham2 jurusan. Yang Berhormat, ia-itu Kerajaan telah Saya sedar banyak yang ada degree pun meluluskan dan mereka itu akan Ph.D. ini, ada honorary degree dan di-bayar mulai daripada bulan Ogos, lain2. Yang Berhormat itu beri tahu 1965—bukan tahun 1966. tadi orang itu chemist—orang ini memang maseh lagi bekerja, dan Ahli Yang Berhormat ini juga telah patut-lah orang yang ada degree Ph.D. menudoh yang pehak Kementerian ini ini bekerja di-tempat kita buat ubat mendapat wang terlalu sadikit ber- di-Petaling Jaya dan kena apa-kah banding dengan tahun sudah. Jadi bagi dia pegang botol dan buat ubat yang sa-benar-nya tahun sudah sa- sahaja di-dispensary, ini tidak patut. banyak $121,000,000 tetapi tahun ini Saya telah pun katakan tadi dia hanya $119,000,000 tetapi itu-lah sebab saya ada diploma sahaja, diploma of phar­ katakan tadi kalau Ahli Yang Berhor­ macy, bukan ada degree lain2 hanya mat itu berada di-waktu Yang Berhor­ diploma of pharmacy yang biasa, yang mat Menteri membuat uchapan-nya keluar daripada university yang biasa tadi. beliau akan faham kerana. sama sahaia. 4925 6 DECEMBER 1965 4926 Ahli Yang Berhormat daripada Batu Muka 311, Sub-head 4, ada per­ juga telah berchakap dengan panjang untokan sa-banyak $5,250,000—ini di- lebar berkenaan dengan Perkhidmatan beri kapada Kerajaan2 Negeri untok Kesihatan di-luar bandar, khas-nya menchegah penyakit malaria. Dan Pusat Kesihatan di-Bukit Tunggal. muka 313, Sub-head 55, ada lagi per­ Kata-nya tidak ada langsong sa-orang untokan sa-banyak $100,000. Dan pegawai pun yang berkhidmat, yang muka 303—Pre-eradication $68,000. bekerja di-Pusat Kesihatan Bukit Jadi jumlah $5,418,840. Jadi, Ahli Tunggal. Yang sa-benar-nya, Pusat Yang Berhormat daripada Tanjong itu Kesihatan di-Bukit Tunggal ini telah berchakap dengan tidak terlebeh pun di-buka dengan rasmi-nya. dahulu mengambil butir2, atau pe- Pegawai2 dan kaki-tangan sedang be­ chahan2-kepala yang telah di-sediakan kerja, tetapi memang ta' chukup ta' dalam buku ini. Jadi hanya hendak lengkap—bukan kata ta' ada langsong. mengelirukan orang ramai mengatakan Yang Berhormat juga berchakap ber­ yang pehak Kementerian, atau Kera­ kenaan dengan Rumah Sakit Lady jaan Perikatan, tidak mengambil berat Templer—ini tidak payah saya men- untok mengatasi penyakit malaria jawab, kerana saya telah pun men- yang sedang bermaharajalela di-luar2 jawab pada tempoh hari kapada Yang badar. Berhormat itu. Sa-benar-nya peruntok­ an $500,000 atau sa-tengah juta itu, Berkenaan dengan pandangan Ahli ia-lah di-buat oleh Kementerian ini Yang Berhormat daripada Tanjong, pada tiap2 tahun. Tetapi, sa-kira-nya supaya mengadakan Crash Programme, pehak Lembaga Rumah Sakit Lady atau Ranchangan Kilat. Ini Kerajaan Templer itu berkehendakkan wang memang telah pun menjalankan se- menjak tahun 1960, untok doktor2 dan kerana tidak chukup, boleh-lah mem- 2 buat permintaan kapada Kementerian. lain . Tetapi yang hebat sa-kali yang Ahli2 Yang Berhormat sedia ma'alum, Kerajaan akan menjalankan ia-itu ia-itu kita telah pun membuat per- pada tahun hadapan yang mana Yang untokan tambahan sa-banyak $200,000 Berhormat Menteri telah memberi tahu lagi pada tahun lalu. Jadi, sa-kira-nya ia-itu lebeh daripada 600 Jururawat— pada tahun 1966 tidak chukup, pehak segala peringkat, dan 110 orang Pem- Kementerian Kesihatan akan sedia bantu Rumat Sakit akan mula ber- menimbang dan akan beri pula lateh pada tahun 1966. $200,000 atau pun kurang sadikit. Ahli Yang Berhormat itu pun telah berchakap berkenaan dengan Director Berkenaan dengan kekurangan IMR—kenapa ada 10 ringgit sahaja. doktor2—ini memang pehak Kemen­ Yang sa-benar-nya gaji Pengarah IMR terian telah pun membuat beberapa dahulu itu ada di-peruntokkan di- ranchangan, dan barangkali dua hari tempat lain, kerana pegawai itu lagi, 18 orang doktor daripada Korea bukan-lah pegawai tetap. Pegawai itu akan tiba—18 daripada 40. Dan dalam pegawai hanya month-to-month. Jadi, pertengahan bulan ini lagi 18—men- sebab itu-lah tidak ada di-tunjok jadi 36, sa-hingga-lah akhir bulan langsong dalam Anggaran Perbelanjaan December ini, 40 doktor daripada ini. Korea akan tiba. Berkenaan dengan chadangan Yang 2 Ahli Yang Berhormat daripada Berhormat supaya penyakit untut, penyakit puru dan lain2 lagi penyakit Tanjong juga berchakap berkenaan 2 dengan penyakit T.B., National Health yang di-dapati di-luar bandar ini di- tempatkan di-bawah kelolaan IMR— Policy, anti-Malaria—berkenaan dengan ini, pehak Kementerian akan meng­ peruntokan untok malaria, atau pun ambil perhatian, sa-kira-nya sesuai penyakit demam kura ini kurang, saya kita akan menjalankan bagaimana suka bagi tahu kapada Yang Berhor­ chadangan yang di-buat oleh Ahli mat itu, ia-itu peruntokan untok Yang Berhormat daripada Tanjong penyakit malaria sahaja, lebeh dari­ tadi. Dan Ahli Yang Berhormat itu pada $5 juta sudah di-peruntokkan juga menchadangkan supaya di- pada tahun 1966. adakan satu Academy of Medical 4927 6 DECEMBER 1965 4928

Sciences. Jadi, sa-kira-nya ada pe- doktor2 private atau tidak, sebab perangan, dapat-lah doktor2 ini ber- itu kita telah membuat anggaran ini. sedia dan tahu bagaimana chara meng- Kalau sa-kira-nya sambutan itu baik, ubat orang2 yang terkena chedera maka pehak Kementerian akan mem­ dalam zaman moden ini—saperti buat perbelanjaan—tambahan. hydrogen dan lain2 lagi. Pehak Kemen- terian akan mengambil perhatian. Tuan Pengerusi, saya rasa tidak-lah ada apa2 lagi, chuma kapada Ahli Yang Berhormat daripada Hilir Perak, Ahli Yang Berhormat daripada saya uchapkan terima kaseh, kerana Kuala Kangsar telah berchakap ber- telah menjawab bagi pehak Kemen­ kenaan dengan Store Rumah Sakit terian dan bagi pehak saya ini, ter- T.B. Lady Templer, berkenaan dengan hadap Ahli Yang Berhormat daripada X-ray dan part-time doctors. Yang Batu. Kapada Ahli2 Yang Berhormat Berhormat Menteri, telah pun beri tahu 2 yang lain yang telah pun memberi tadi, beratus ribu orang telah pun di- 2 2 pandangan itu, pehak Kementerian X-ray dan banyak perkakas X-ray uchapkan berbanyak2 terima kaseh. telah di-beli pada tahun sudah—ini tidak akan di-beli lagi pada tahun ini. Question put and agreed to. Sebab itu-lah perbelanjaan tidak sa- bagaimana tahun yang sudah. Per­ The sum of $119,192,888 for Head belanjaan tahun ini kurang $200,000 S. 32 ordered to stand part of the oleh sebab perkakas2 yang telah kita Schedule. beli pada tahun sudah, kita tidak akan House resumes, beli lagi pada tahun ini. Dan ber­ kenaan dengan $15,000 untok part-time Mr Speaker: Ahli2 Yang Berhormat, doctors. Doktor2 private yang akan 2 saya hendak menyatakan ada-lah Com­ berkhidmat di-rumah sakit, akan dapat mittee of Supply bagi Supply Bill tahun sa-banyak $400 untok sa-orang—tidak 1966 telah meluluskan hingga Kepala lebeh daripada $400 sa-bulan. Meng- S. 32 bagi Jadual Bill itu. Meshuarat ikut Ahli Yang Berhormat daripada ini di-tanggohkan hingga pukul 10 Kuala Kangsar, $15,000 ini tidak chu- esok pagi. kup. Kita ta' tahu sama ada rancha- ngan ini akan di-sambut baik oleh Adjourned at 8.02 p.m.