Drinking with Non-Jews Jonathan Ziring: [email protected] 1. Bavli, Avodah Zara 31b מפני מה אסרו]אמרו )ריטב"א([ שכר של עובדי כוכבים? רמי בר חמא אמר רבי יצחק: משום חתנות, רב נחמן אמר: משום גילוי… רב פפא מפיקין ליה לאבבא דחנותא ושתי, רב אחאי מייתו ליה לביתיה ושתי, ותרוייהו משום חתנות, רב אחאי עביד הרחקה יתירתא It has been stated: Why has beer of heathens been forbidden? Rami b. Hama said in the name of R. Isaac: Because of marriages. R. Nahman said: Because it might have been left uncovered… R. Papa used to drink beer when it was brought out to him to the door of the shop; R. Ahai used to drink it when it was brought to his house. Both of them held that the reason [for the prohibition] is intermarriage, but R. Ahai insisted on extraordinary precaution.

2. Tosafot Rid, Avodah Zara 65b פת ושלקות שבתחלה גזרו על בישולי גוים ולא על הפת ולבסוף גזרו על הפת משום דבישולי גוים זהו הוא דבר הצריך אומן לבשל שיש לך אדם שיודע לתקן תבשילו ולבסמו. וכשיהודי רואה גוי שיודע לתקן מאכלו היטב מתאוה לתבשילו ונמלך אחריו ומתחתן בו אח"כ גזרו על הפת שראו עוד שנמשך אחריהן ... וחתנות דשכר לא דמי לחתנות דתבשיל של גוים דאיסור חתנות של שכר אינו משום עשיית שכר שאפילו עשאו ישראל שכר אינו אלא מפני שאם היה מותר לשתות משכר שלה' היה הולך בביתו ומשתכר עמו ומתוך כך מתחתן עמו והילכך כי שתי בביתו של ישראל או אבבא דחנותא הוי הרחקה … The bread and cooked foods: First they decreed against cooked foods and not bread. Eventually they decreed against bread because of “bishul goyim”, that is those things that need an expert to cook, as there are people who know how to prepare and spice food. When a Jew sees a non-Jew who knows how to prepare food well, he desires the food and follows him and marries him. Then they decreed on bread, for they saw that people were being attracted to them because of their baking… The chatnut if beer is not like that of the cooked foods of non-Jews, as the prohibition is not because of the making of beer, because even if a Jew made it is forbidden. Beer [is forbidden] because if it was permitted to drink beer with them, you would go to their houses, get drunk with them, and marry them. Therefore, if you drink in the Jew’s house, or at the doors of the sore, you have made a distance.

3. Commentary of Rambam on Mishna, Avodah Zara 2:6 נאסרו כדי שנתרחק מהם ולא נתערב עמהם, כדי שלא נימשך בהתערבנו עמהם להתפקרות במה שאסור, והוא ענין אומרם משום חתנות.. These were forbidden to distance ourselves from them so that we won’t mix with them, so that we will not be led by our mixed with them to throwing off the yoke with forbidden things, and that is what is meant by chatnut.

4. Tosafot, Avodah Zara 31b איסור שכר לא מצינו לא במשנה ולא בברייתא ושמא בימי האמוראים אסרוהו. The prohibition of bear we did not find the Mishna or Beraita. Perhaps it was forbidden in the time of the .

5. Rashba, Torat HaBayit 5:1 שכר של עו"ג אסור הרחקה יתירה נהגו בו משום חתנות… Non-Jewish beer: there became accustomed to treating it as forbidden to create extra distance…

6. Tosafot, Avodah Zara 31b ומ"מ שניהן לא היו שותין בבית העובד כוכבים וא"כ צריך ליזהר שלא לשתות שכר בבית העובד כוכבים …ומיהו המתאכסן בבית העובד כוכבים יכול להיות שמותר לשלוח בעיר לקנות שכר מן העובדי כוכבים דהוי כמו בביתו של ישראל ואף אם העובד כוכבים אכסנאי שלו נותן לו משלו )ושותה( משום איבה דלא אסרו משום חתנות אלא לקבוע שתיה בחנות או ברגילות לשתות בבית העובדי כוכבים אבל אקראי בעלמא שרי Neither would drink in the non-Jew’s house. If so, we must be careful not to drink beer in the house of a non-Jew… However, one who is a guest in a non-Jew’s house, it may be permitted to send for some beer from the non-Jews as it is as if it is the Jew’s house. And even if the non-Jew is his guest, he can give him because of hatred, for they only prohibited for chatnut, to establish drinking in a story or drinking in the non-Jew’s house on a regular basis, but once in a while it is permitted.

7. Or Zarua 4:163, Hilchot Avodah Zara אי נמי כגון נכנס בבית גוי ומזג לו כוס שכר נראה דשרי משום איבה: Alternatively, if you go into the non-Jews house and he poured you a cup of beer, it seems as if it is permitted because of hatred.

8. Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 114:1 כל שכר של כותים, אחד שכר של תמרים או של תאנים או של שעורים או של תבואה או של דבש, אסור משום חתנות. ואינו אסור אלא במקום מכירתו, אבל אם הביא השכר לביתו ושותהו שם, מותר, שעיקר הגזרה שמא יסעוד אצלו. ולא אסרו אלא כשקובע עצמו לשתות כדרך שאדם קובע בשתיה, אבל אם נכנס בבית העובד כוכבים ושתה דרך עראי באקראי, מותר. וכן מי שלן בבית העובד כוכבים, חשוב כביתו, ומותר לשלוח בעיר לקנות שכר מהעובד כוכבים. הגה: ויש מתירין בשכר של דבש ותבואה, וכן נוהגין להקל במדינות אלו. All beer of non-Jews, whether of dates, figs, barley, grain, or honey, it forbidden because of chatnut. It is only forbidden where it is sold, but if you bring it home and drink it there, it is permitted, for the main decreed was because you might eat there. It is only forbidden when you establish yourself to drink there, as people do for drinks, but if you go into the non- Jew’s house and drink in a not-set manner, it is permitted. So too, if you sleep at a non-Jew’s house, it is like your house, and you can send for beer from the non-Jews. Rama: Some permit honey or grain beer, and that is the custom in these countries.

9. Shut She’elat Yaavetz 2:142 והקאפיע בכלל הזה עמהם דין אחד לכולם Coffee it included in this – they all have the same law.

10. Chochmat Adam 66:14 ואף שבזמן הזה נוהגים להקל לשתות שכר של תבואה בבית העכו"ם ואין למחות בידם כי יש מקילין אבל ראוי לכל בעל נפש להרחיק מזה ... וכל זה בשכר שמצוי אבל יין תפוחים ושאר פירות מותר דדבר שאינו מצוי לא גזרינן וכן קאווע ושאקלאדע מותר לשתות בבית העכו"ם )פרי חדש(. אך בעוונותינו הרבים בזמן הזה כמה קלקולים באים מזה ...באו לידי זנות כידוע על כן כל אשר בו ריח תורה ירחיק מזה מלהכנס לבתיהם לשתות איזה משקה שיהיה Even though now the custom is to be lenient with grain beers in the non-Jew’s house, and we can’t protest because there are those who are lenient, it is proper for one who is careful to distance himself from this… This is all for beer, but apple or other fruit wines are permitted because we don’t make decrees about uncommon things. Coffee and hot chocolate are permitted to drink in the non-Jew’s house. However, in our many sins, nowadays many sins have come from this… besides for the fact that it is leads to promiscuity, as is known. Therefore, anyone who has a scent of Torah should distance himself from going into their houses to drink anything.

11. Shut Halachot Ketanot 1:9 דלאו מידי דמשכר הוא אבל משום מושב ליצים איכא It does not make one drunk [and so it is not shechar ] but it is does have the problem of a sitting of scorners.

12. Bars and Office Parties in Jewish Law by Jonathan Ziring Rabbi Herschel Schachter was hesitant to accept the leniencies of Rama. He accepted the stringent concern of Chochmat Adam, arguing that intermarriage is in fact a problem and even coffee should be forbidden in nochri stores. However, he considered being lenient if the reality is that people do not speak to strangers in coffee shops, but rather drink by themselves or with friends. As this is often the reality, there seems to be room to distinguish between our coffee houses and the taverns of , even if one were to include coffee in shechar. This argument is offered by Shulchan Melachim. Seemingly, this argument should apply to bars as well, though bars have more of a communal culture, especially near the bar itself. Additionally, it is more likely that the original decree of shechar applies to bars, and not just the ancillary concerns. Rabbi Mordechai Willig also urged avoiding bars.

F. Grounds for Leniency Many Jews do in fact go to bars. Some go for social reasons, others for business. My friends who work in Washington tell me that much of the networking in politics happens in bars so it is necessary to go there. Therefore, it behooves us to understand whether it can be permitted. As Chochmat Adam pointed out, from the strict letter of the law, it is difficult to challenge people because they can rely on the Rama. Indeed, common practice in Europe seems to have followed the Rema… However, many Achronim challenge the Rama, and other argue that even if we accept his position it is strongly discouraged… Social gatherings in a bar, therefore, should be discouraged if not forbidden. As for business meetings, if it happens only once in a while, it would seem there is room to be lenient based on the positions of Tosafot recorded in Shulchan Aruch. However, Rabbi Mordechai Willig told this author that if a given profession requires entering a bar, one should be hesitant about entering that profession.66 Rabbi Yonah Reiss similarly encouraged going to restaurants instead.67 Rabbi Herschel Schachter suggested that if one really must have a business meeting in a bar, then one should at least refrain from drinking alcohol and should order a soda instead. Based on Shulchan Melachim, we could suggest one should at least sit at a table rather than at the bar. It should be noted that in addition to Rama, there is evidence that many communities were lenient on this issue for other reasons.Meiri, for example, argues that the prohibition is derived purely from custom, and we no longer have this custom. Tosafot Rabbenu Elchanan69 notes that no one was stringent on this prohibition. He suggests that perhaps the prohibition is only in stores, i.e. bars, and not private houses, as the latter are not exclusively set aside for drinking. Another suggestion is that it is only prohibited if one goes for the intent to drink – if one goes for other purposes and happens to be given a drink, then it is permitted. As mentioned above, this may be the intent of Tosafot, whose position is accepted in Shulchan Aruch. His central suggestion is that it is permitted because of eivah, preventing animosity, also a relevant concern even in some social settings. In the opinion of this author, while attending bars should be discouraged, there are grounds for leniency. While people should try to find alternate venues for business meetings, if one attends business meetings in bars only once in a while, one may even be permitted to have an alcoholic drink, as this may be what Shulchan Aruch meant. However, by sitting down for a meeting, one only achieved one of the two requirements of arai and akrai. One can add to this the concern of eivah, if it will indeed create animosity. As Rabbi Schachter notes, it is better to not have an alcoholic drink oneself. One should ideally avoid the bar and instead choose a table, which can be distinguished from the taverns of Chazal. If one needs to frequent bars to network, there is less room to be lenient because this is parallel to attending a tavern in the times of Chazal. However, as Chochmat Adam notes, there is room to be lenient in a case of need. On all these issues, one should consult a competent posek for both the halachic and meta-halachic issues.