T Y N W A L D C O U R T O F F I C I A L R E P O R T R E C O R T Y S O I K O I L Q U A I Y L T I N V A A L P R O C E E D I N G S D A A L T Y N HANSARD S E L E C T C O M M I T T E E O F T Y N W A L D O N T H E K I R K M I C H A E L L A N D E X C H A N G E A G R E E M E N T B I N G V E A Y N T I N V A A L M Y C H I O N E C O A R D A I L C O O N R E Y T H A L L O O I N S C O I L L S K Y L L E Y M A A Y L Douglas, Thursday, 7th June 2012 PP85/12 KMLX, No. 2 All published Official Reports can be found on the Tynwald website www.tynwald.org.im/Official Papers/Hansards/Please select a year: Reports, maps and other documents referred to in the course of debates may be consulted on application to the Tynwald Library or the Clerk of Tynwald’s Office. Supplementary material subsequently made available following Questions for Oral Answer is published separately on the Tynwald website, www.tynwald.org.im/Official Papers/Hansards/Hansard Appendix Published by the Office of the Clerk of Tynwald, Legislative Buildings, Finch Road, Douglas, Isle of Man, IM1 3PW. © High Court of Tynwald, 2012 SELECT COMMITTEE, THURSDAY, 7th JUNE 2012 Members Present: Chairman: Hon. S C Rodan, SHK Mrs B J Cannell, MHK Mr J R Turner, MLC Clerk: Miss H J Paisley Business Transacted Page Procedural ..............................................................................................................................................25 Evidence of Hon. W E Teare MHK, former Minister for Education and Children and Mr S Dobson, Chief Executive Officer, Department of Education and Children.....................25 The Committee sat in private at 11.38 a.m. _________________________________________________________________ 24 KMLX SELECT COMMITTEE, THURSDAY, 7th JUNE 2012 Select Committee of Tynwald on the Kirk Michael Land Exchange Agreement The Committee sat in public at 10.00 a.m. in the Legislative Council Chamber, Legislative Buildings, Douglas [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Procedural The Chairman (Hon. S C Rodan): Good morning and welcome to this public meeting of the Select Committee on the Kirk Michael School Land Exchange Agreement. I am Steve Rodan, Chair of the Committee and the Members are Mrs Cannell and Mr Turner. Heather Paisley is 5 clerking the Committee for us this morning. If I could ask everyone please to switch off mobile phones – not simply putting them on silent, because they interfere with recording equipment. Also for the benefit of Hansard, I shall be making sure we do not have two people speaking at once, as far as possible. This Committee was established by Tynwald in February 2012 with the following remit: 10 ‘That Tynwald appoints a Committee of three Members with powers to take written and oral evidence pursuant to sections 3 and 4 of the Tynwald Proceedings Act 1876, as amended, to investigate the Kirk Michael School Land Exchange Agreement between Heritage Homes, Pinecrest Investments Ltd and the Department of Education and Children; whether by January 2011 access to the land had been secured, as was stated at that time, by the Hon. 15 Member for Ayre; the manner in which the negotiations were conducted; and the value for money achieved; and to report with recommendations by May 2012.’ We issued a call for evidence in March and are grateful to all members of the public who have responded. On 10th May, we heard oral evidence of the former MHK for Michael, Mr David 20 Cannan and the current MHK for Michael, Mr Alf Cannan. This is our second public meeting and today we are hearing from two distinguished witnesses, the Hon. Eddie Teare MHK and Mr Stuart Dobson. Thank you very much gentlemen for meeting with the Committee this morning, and welcome to you. 25 EVIDENCE OF HON. W E TEARE MHK AND MR S DOBSON Q63. The Chairman: If I could begin, Mr Dobson, just for purposes of clarification on the 30 roles and responsibilities within the Department. Following our last hearing, there was some confusion, I do not think on our part, but in various quarters about the role and responsibilities within the Department, as to who was the Director of Education at the time of the agreement. Could I just ask you, for the record, Mr Dobson, to clarify matters? 35 Mr Dobson: Yes, sure. Until 31st December 2010, my predecessor, Mr John Cain was Director of Education. On his retirement the post changed to Chief Executive Officer, which is the post I now hold. So I took up post on 1st February 2011 and I had covered in the meantime. Since then, in terms of securing the future of the Department, we have changed the name of a post, but not the grading or salary – I wish to put in – and we have created the post of Director of 40 Education from the old Senior Adviser post. This is because for my post, there is no requirement for there to be an educational background and it was a way of securing an educational background into the top management of the DEC. Martin Barrow now holds that post, which is what caused the confusion, because Martin, who has never had anything to do with the Kirk Michael land exchange, was named in the newspaper. 45 Q64. The Chairman: Thank you. During the period Mr John Cain was Director of Education, until 2010, you were Deputy Director? _________________________________________________________________ 25 KMLX SELECT COMMITTEE, THURSDAY, 7th JUNE 2012 Mr Dobson: Part of the time of this, but I came to the Isle of Man in November 2005, and for 50 most of the time held the post of Senior Adviser in the Schools Quality Assurance Division. Q65. The Chairman: Yes, thank you. But ultimately you were Deputy Director. Mr Dobson: I was the Deputy Director for just over a year. 55 Q66. The Chairman: That is fine, thank you very much, which covers the period in question. Could I ask you to describe the division of responsibilities between the Minister and civil servants, officers of your Department, in putting together this Agreement – who was responsible within the Department? 60 Mr Dobson: Within the Department, a number of officers are there to advise the Minister in the decision-making processes. The usual course of events is that the Department collectively would make any decisions on the future. My job, yes, currently, as Chief Executive Officer, is to make sure that the advice given to Ministers is as good as we feel it can be. We are not in a 65 position to impose advice, but what we can do… If I ever thought advice was not being taken, I would register that fact in writing. I have not had cause to do that. We do have an Estates Director, who was very much more closely involved over the entire period on this – that is Mr Richard Collister, who is named in many of the papers. 70 Q67. The Chairman: And the Estates Director, his name was? Mr Dobson: Richard Collister. The Chairman: Richard Collister. 75 Mr Dobson: Was and is. Q68. The Chairman: And during the period in question, he advised the Director and the Minister – 80 Mr Dobson: Yes, that is his role. Q69. The Chairman: – in the lead-up to the… Would he be the lead officer of the Department – 85 Mr Dobson: On Estates, yes. The Chairman: – on Estates, as far as any negotiations were concerned? 90 Mr Dobson: Mr Collister was involved in the meetings – in some of the meetings, anyway – with Pinecrest and Heritage Homes. To the best of my recollection, I do not think I was involved in any of them. Q70. The Chairman: Thank you very much. 95 Just turning to the Agreement itself, Minister, if I perhaps, could invite you…? Do you wish to make any opening statement? Thank you for your written evidence and the written evidence from the Department and just to confirm we have closely looked at that and do thank you for that. Is there anything by way of opening statement, Mr Teare, you wish to make at this stage? 100 The Minister for Education and Children (Mr Teare): There is nothing that I wish to add, Mr Chairman, to my original statement, but just to thank the Committee for reorganising this public hearing. It is very much appreciated. 105 Q71. The Chairman: Thank you. In that case Minister could I perhaps begin by asking you, what was your motivation to undertake this particular deal with Heritage Homes? Was the motivation right and proper? _________________________________________________________________ 26 KMLX SELECT COMMITTEE, THURSDAY, 7th JUNE 2012 Mr Teare: Right. There were two main motivations. The first was potential damage limitation 110 to the school and the impact of the development on the school and the second one was to secure the best possible arrangement for the taxpayer, knowing full well that they already had alternative access. Q72. The Chairman: In May 2007, Mrs Craine, your predecessor told the Keys that the 115 potential disadvantages to Kirk Michael outweighed the possible benefits to the school in terms of the deal, the offer that was on the table at that time.