T Y N W A L D C O U R T O F F I C I A L R E P O R T
R E C O R T Y S O I K O I L Q U A I Y L T I N V A A L
P R O C E E D I N G S
D A A L T Y N
HANSARD
Douglas, Tuesday, 15th November 2016
All published Official Reports can be found on the Tynwald website:
www.tynwald.org.im/business/hansard
Supplementary material provided subsequent to a sitting is also published to the website as a Hansard Appendix. Reports, maps and other documents referred to in the course of debates may be consulted on application to the Tynwald Library or the Clerk of Tynwald’s Office.
Volume 134, No. 3
ISSN 1742-2256
Published by the Office of the Clerk of Tynwald, Legislative Buildings, Finch Road, Douglas, Isle of Man, IM1 3PW. © High Court of Tynwald, 2016 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
Present:
The President of Tynwald (Hon. S C Rodan)
In the Council: The Acting Attorney General (Mr J L M Quinn), Mr D M Anderson, Mr M R Coleman, Mr C G Corkish MBE, Mr D C Cretney, Mr T M Crookall, Mr R W Henderson, Mr J R Turner, with Mr J D C King, Deputy Clerk of Tynwald.
In the Keys: The Speaker (Hon. J P Watterson) (Rushen); The Chief Minister (Hon. R H Quayle) (Middle); Mr J R Moorhouse and Hon. G D Cregeen (Arbory, Castletown and Malew); Hon. A L Cannan and Mr T S Baker (Ayre and Michael); Hon. C C Thomas and Mrs C A Corlett (Douglas Central); Miss C L Bettison and Mr C R Robertshaw (Douglas East); Mr D J Ashford and Mr G R Peake (Douglas North); Hon. K J Beecroft and Hon. W M Malarkey (Douglas South); Mr M J Perkins and Mrs D H P Caine (Garff); Hon. R K Harmer and Hon. G G Boot (Glenfaba and Peel); Mr W C Shimmins (Middle); Mr R E Callister and Ms J M Edge (Onchan); Dr A J Allinson and Mr L L Hooper (Ramsey); Hon. L D Skelly (Rushen); with Mr R I S Phillips, Clerk of Tynwald.
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Business transacted
Leave of absence granted ...... 91 Welcome to His Excellency, HM Lieutenant Governor, Sir Richard Gozney; ...... 91 Welcome to The Speaker, Mr Asad Qaiser and Mr Waqar Shah of the Khyber Pakhtunkhwa Assembly...... 91 Papers laid before the Court ...... 91 Questions for Oral Answer ...... 94 1. Programme for Government – Sufficient legislative drafting capacity ...... 94 2. Personal injury damages – Allowing periodic payments ...... 95 3. Manx Utilities Authority – Plans to freeze charges and review ...... 97 4. Capability Assessment review – Survey sample sizes ...... 98 5. Tidal technology – Creation of green technological hub ...... 99 6. Schools’ centralised catering service – Level of service ...... 101 7. University College Isle of Man – Cost for use of the Nunnery ...... 102 8. King Scallop industry – Statement and plans for best return ...... 103 9. Non-invasive prenatal testing – Department’s plans ...... 106 10. and 18. Social workers and parents’ meetings – Guidance and procedures for recording ...... 108 11. Children and Families Social Services – Social workers employed ...... 111 12. Constabulary budgets – Minister’s plans ...... 112 13. Public sector housing administration – Reform and timescale ...... 113 14. Douglas Promenade scheme – Total cost to date...... 115 15. Road building – Cost and build time ...... 116 16. Schools’ catering service – Drop in 2015-16 income ...... 120 17. Accident and Emergency waiting times – Plans to reduce ...... 121 19. Pavement maintenance – Budgets and expenditure ...... 125 20. Ballanard Road – Plans for repair and reinstatement ...... 127 21. Horse trams – Performance in 2016; plans for 2017 ...... 128 Questions for Written Answer ...... 130 22. Collective responsibility – Differences between current and previous Governments ... 130 23. Tax cap electors – Numbers of employees ...... 130 24. Tax cap electors – Details prior to introduction of cap ...... 131 25. Government subcontracting – Income Tax raised since 2011 ...... 131 26. Income Tax deducted at source – Overseas and Isle of Man contractors ...... 132 27. Automatic Number Plate Recognition – Legal use by public bodies...... 132 28. Government Office canteen service – Financial details 2015-16...... 134
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Order of the Day ...... 135 3. Social Affairs Policy Review Committee Second Report for the Session 2015-2016 – Progress with Inquiries – Statement by the Minister for Education and Children ...... 135 4. Social Affairs Policy Review Committee Third Report for the Session 2015-2016 – Children and Families Social Services – Statement by the Minister for Health and Social Care ...... 135 5. Programme for Government – Framework document and timetable – Debate commenced ...... 136 The Court adjourned at 1.05 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 2.30 p.m...... 148 Programme for Government – Debate continued – Motion carried ...... 148 6. Statutory Boards and Bodies – Political appointments approved ...... 154 7. Environment and Infrastructure Policy Review Committee – Third Report 2015-16: Dredging of Peel Harbour and Disposal of Extracted Material – Report received and recommendation approved ...... 159 8. Funding of Nursing and Residential Care – Report and recommendations – Amended motion carried ...... 161 9. Operation of the Jury System – Report and recommendations – Amended motion deferred for combined vote next sitting ...... 171 The Court adjourned at 5.18 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 5.50 p.m...... 196 10. Election of Deputy President – Mr Speaker elected ...... 196 11. Public Accounts Committee – Mr Speaker elected Chairman ...... 197 12. Economic Policy Review Committee – Mr Coleman elected Chairman ...... 199 13. Environment and Infrastructure Policy Review Committee – Mr Callister elected Chairman ...... 200 14. Social Affairs Policy Review Committee – Mr Cretney elected Chairman ...... 201 15. Public Accounts Committee – Mr Crookall elected Vice-Chairman ...... 203 16. Economic Policy Review Committee – Mr Baker and Mr Moorhouse elected ...... 203 17. Environment and Infrastructure Policy Review Committee – Mr Robertshaw and Miss Bettison elected ...... 204 18. Social Affairs Policy Review Committee – Mr Ashford and Mr Perkins elected ...... 205 19. Ecclesiastical Committee – Mr Anderson , Mr Cannan and Mr Corkish elected ...... 207 20. Standing Orders Committee of Tynwald Court: Keys Members – Mr Harmer and Mr Ashford elected ...... 207 21. Standing Orders Committee of Tynwald Court: Council Members – Mr Turner and Mr Corkish elected ...... 208 22. Tynwald Honours Committee – Mrs Corlett, Mr Corkish and Mrs Caine elected ...... 209 23. Tynwald Management Committee – Mrs Corlett, Mr Baker and Mr Cretney elected ... 211 Supplementary Order Paper No. 1 ...... 214 1. British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly – Mr Speaker and Mr Crookall elected Member and alternate Member ...... 214
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Main Order Paper ...... 215 24. Merchant Shipping Registration Act 1991 – Merchant Shipping (Limited Partnerships) (Relevant Countries) Regulations 2016 approved ...... 215 25.-26. Plant Varieties Act 1997 (of Parliament) – Plant Breeders’ Rights (Isle of Man) Regulations 2016 approved – Plant Breeders’ Rights (Naming and Fees) (Isle of Man) Regulations 2016 approved ...... 215 27. Animal Health Act 1996 – Bovine Identification and Traceability (Amendment) Order 2016 approved ...... 216 28. Telecommunications Act 1984 – Sure (IOM) Limited Telecommunications Licence – Motion carried ...... 218 29. Pedlars and Street Traders Act 1906; Local Government Act 1985 – Parish of Marown Pedlars and Street Traders Licence Fee Byelaws 2016 – Motion not moved ...... 219 30. Financial Services Act 2008 – Financial Services Rule Book 2016 approved ...... 220 31. Income Tax Act 1970 – Taxes (Turks and Caicos Islands) Order 2016 approved ...... 221 32. Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1986 – Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1986 (Amendment) Order 2016 approved ...... 222 33. Customs and Excise Act 1993 – Customs and Excise Acts (Application) (Amendment) (No.2) Order 2016 approved ...... 222 34. Customs and Excise Management Act 1986 – Customs and Excise Management Act 1986 (Amendment) (No.2) Order 2016 approved ...... 223 35. Value Added Tax Act 1996 – Value Added Tax Act 1996 (Amendment) Order 2016 approved ...... 223 36. Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 – Child Benefit (Rates) (Amendment) Regulations 2016 approved ...... 224 37.-38. Social Security Act 2000 – Jobseekers Act 1995 (Application) (Amendment) Order 2016 approved – Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 (Application) (Amendment) (No.4) Order 2016 approved ...... 225 39. Social Security Act 2000 – Social Security Legislation (Benefits) (Application) (Amendment) (No.5) Order 2016 approved ...... 225 40. Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 – Exceptional Needs Grants and Budgeting Loans (Amendment) (No.2) Regulations 2016 approved ...... 226 41. Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 – Maternity and Funeral Expenses (General) (Isle of Man) (Amendment) Regulations 2016 approved ...... 227 42. Social Security Act 2000 – TV Licence Payment Order 2016 approved ...... 227 The Council withdrew...... 229 House of Keys ...... 229 The House adjourned at 7.21 p.m...... 229
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Tynwald
The Court met at 10.30 a.m.
[MR PRESIDENT in the Chair]
The Deputy Clerk: Hon. Members, please rise for the President of Tynwald.
5 The President: Moghrey mie, good morning, Hon. Members.
Members: Moghrey mie, Mr President.
The President: In the absence of a Lord Bishop and a Chaplain, I shall read prayers.
PRAYERS The President
Leave of absence granted
10 The President: Please be seated. Hon. Members, leave of absence has been granted to Hon. Member for Council, Mr Wild, who is unwell.
Welcome to His Excellency, HM Lieutenant Governor, Sir Richard Gozney; Welcome to The Speaker, Mr Asad Qaiser and Mr Waqar Shah of the Khyber Pakhtunkhwa Assembly
The President: On behalf of the Court may I send the warmest of welcomes to His Excellency, the Lieutenant Governor who is joining us this morning. You are most welcome, sir. (Members: 15 Hear, hear.) May I also welcome visitors from the Khyber Pakhtunkhwa Assembly of Pakistan, and in particular Mr Speaker, Mr Asad Qaiser, who is accompanied by Mr Waqar Shah. You are very welcome to the Isle of Man. (Members: Hear, hear.) Please give our very best wishes to your colleagues, some of whom we have met, when you return home.
Papers laid before the Court
20 The President: I call on the Clerk to lay papers.
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The Clerk: I lay before the Court the papers listed at Item 1 of the Order Paper.
Merchant Shipping Registration Act 1991 Merchant Shipping (Limited Partnerships) (Relevant Countries) Regulations 2016 [SD No 2016/0301] [MEMO]
Plant Varieties Act 1997 Plant Breeders' Rights (Isle of Man) Regulations 2016 [SD No 2016/0315] [MEMO] Plant Breeders' Rights (Naming and Fees) (Isle of Man) Regulations 2016 [SD No 2016/0314] [MEMO]
Animal Health Act 1996 Bovine Identification and Traceability (Amendment) Order 2016 [SD No 2016/0316] [MEMO]
Telecommunications Act 1984 Licence Granted to Sure Isle of Man Limited to provide services under Section 5 of the Telecommunications Act 1984 (of Tynwald) [GD No 2016/0075] [MEMO]
Pedlars and Street Traders Act 1906 and Local Government Act 1985 Parish of Marown Pedlars and Street Traders Licence Fee Byelaws 2016 [SD No 2016/0240] [MEMO]
Financial Services Act 2008 Financial Services Rule Book 2016 [SD No 2016/0264] [MEMO]
Income Tax Act 1970 Taxes (Turks and Caicos Islands) Order 2016 [SD No 2016/0263] [MEMO]
Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1986 Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1986 (Amendment) Order 2016 [SD No 2016/0269] [MEMO]
Customs and Excise Act 1993 Customs and Excise Acts (Application) (Amendment) (No.2) Order 2016 [SD No 2016/0272] [MEMO]
Customs and Excise Management Act 1986 Customs and Excise Management Act 1986 (Amendment) (No.2) Order 2016 [SD No 2016/0273] [MEMO]
Value Added Tax Act 1996 Value Added Tax Act 1996 (Amendment) Order 2016 [SD No 2016/0274] [MEMO]
Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 Child Benefit (Rates) (Amendment) Regulations 2016 [SD No 2016/0303] [MEMO] Exceptional Needs Grants and Budgeting Loans (Amendment) (No.2) Regulations 2016 [SD No 2016/0308] [MEMO] Maternity and Funeral Expenses (General) (Isle of Man) (Amendment) Regulations 2016 [SD No 2016/0309] [MEMO]
Social Security Act 2000 Jobseekers Act 1995 (Application) (Amendment) Order 2016 [SD No 2016/0304] [MEMO] ______92 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 (Application) (Amendment) (No.4) Order 2016 [SD No 2016/0305] [MEMO] Social Security Legislation (Benefits) (Application) (Amendment) (No.5) Order 2016 [SD No 2016/0307] [MEMO] TV Licence Payment Order 2016 [SD No 2016/0320] [MEMO]
The remaining items are not the subject of motions on the Order Paper
Documents subject to negative resolution
European Communities (Isle of Man) Act 1973 Seed Marketing Regulations 2016 [SD No 2016/0313]
Fisheries Act 2012 Recreational Sea Fishing (Bass) Regulations 2016 [SD No 2016/0278] [MEMO]
European Communities (Isle of Man) Act 1973 Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002 Immigration (European Economic Area) (Amendment) Regulations 2016 [SD No 2016/0280] [MEMO]
Documents subject to no procedure
Communications Act 2003 Communications (Television Licensing) (Amendment) Regulations 2016 [SI 2016 No. 704] [MEMO]
Reports Public Services Commission Annual Report 2015-16 [GD No 2016/0065] Manx Radio Annual Report 2015/16 [GD No 2016/0049] Council of Ministers Response to the Report of the Select Committee on the Operation of Jury System 2015-2016 [GD No 2016/0072] Council of Ministers Response to the Report of the Tynwald Select Committee on the Funding of Nursing and Residential Care 2015-16 [GD No 2016/0068] Council of Ministers Response to the Report of Environment and Infrastructure Policy Review Committee 2015-2016 Dredging of Peel Harbour and Disposal of Extracted Material [GD No 2016/0067] Isle of Man Government Account 2015-16 [GD No 2016/0055]
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Questions for Oral Answer
CHIEF MINISTER
1. Programme for Government – Sufficient legislative drafting capacity
The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Speaker) to ask the Chief Minister:
What steps are being taken to ensure that there is sufficient legislative drafting capacity to deliver the Government’s programme?
25 The President: We turn now, Hon. Members, to our Order Paper, Item 2: Questions. Question 1, I call on Mr Speaker.
The Speaker: Thank you, Mr President. To ask the Chief Minister what steps are being taken to ensure that there is sufficient 30 legislative drafting capacity to deliver the Government Programme?
The President: I call on the Chief Minister, the Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Quayle.
The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): Thank you, Mr President. 35 The production of legislation is a function of the Attorney General’s Chambers and, as such, it is the Acting Attorney General’s responsibility to ensure that sufficient and appropriate resources are available in order to provide the Bills prioritised and listed on the Government’s legislative programme. Chambers is represented on the Council of Ministers and legislation subcommittees and 40 meets regularly with members of the Cabinet Office in order to monitor and ensure the timely progression of legislation. I understand from the Acting Attorney General that his Chambers has had significant difficulty in attracting, recruiting and retaining legislative drafters, with the majority coming to the Island from other jurisdictions. 45 To meet the demands for Bills on the legislative programme, the Council of Ministers recommended to Treasury in the 2014-15 financial year that additional resources be made available to Chambers as a result of which two new legislative drafters have been employed within the Drafting Division. Those engaged in drafting legislation are the Chief Legislative Drafter, three legislative drafters and two legal officers, legislation. 50 As quoted in Lord Lisvane’s recent report, the Acting Attorney General confirmed to him that he was now confident that he had sufficient resources to deal with primary legislation – an average of 15 Bills a year – and that he was keen that the Island should grow its own drafting expertise.
55 The President: Supplementary question, Mr Speaker.
Mr Speaker: Would the Chief Minister agree that the number of drafters available to complete the Government’s programme during the last administration was inadequate, and would he say that it was still necessary to increase it? 60 The President: The Chief Minister to reply.
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The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. As I say, I can only go on the evidence quoted, that the Acting Attorney General himself has 65 given in evidence. However, as the Hon. Mr Speaker was one of my colleagues in the Council of Ministers, we did discuss the need for extra legal draftsmen, and I think the Acting Attorney General has applied to Treasury for additional funding to enable him to recruit a further legislative drafting expert in relation to the likely increase in workflows in respect of the Island’s response to Brexit.
TREASURY
2. Personal injury damages – Allowing periodic payments
The Hon. Member of the Council, Mr Coleman, to ask the Minister for the Treasury:
What progress his Department has made in implementing the recommendation of the Economic Policy Review Committee to allow periodic payments for personal injury damages to be an option for the Deemster to order?
70 The President: Question 2, Hon. Member of the Council, Mr Coleman.
Mr Coleman: Thank you, Mr President. I wish to ask the Treasury Minister what progress his Department has made in implementing the recommendation of the Economic Policy Review Committee to allow periodic payments for 75 personal injury damages to be an option for the Deemster to order?
The President: I call on the Treasury Minister, Mr Cannan.
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, this matter relates to a report 80 produced by the Economic Policy Review Committee following Tynwald’s approval of the Damages (Personal Injury) Order 2014. At present, although the option of periodic payments is available under Isle of Man legislation, it is not something that the courts can impose without the consent of both parties in a personal injury damages case. 85 The Committee recommended that Treasury consider whether legislation should be amended to allow the courts to impose periodic payment awards and, whilst Treasury have no objections to this proposal in principle, it is not believed that such a change to existing policy should be carried out in isolation given that resources required to change primary legislation have also to be considered against other Treasury and Government priorities. 90 The current Isle of Man legislation in this area is closely linked to the United Kingdom, a correlation which was endorsed by the Committee. The United Kingdom’s Ministry of Justice has recently consulted twice on legislation in this area including reviewing the UK Damages Act 1996, which specifically covers the issue of periodic payments and whether the approach to such awards should be further encouraged. 95 Treasury has made a commitment to maintain a watching brief in respect of that ongoing review, but at present no firm position has been reached by the Ministry of Justice and no future proposals have yet been published. Mr President, whilst this process is ongoing I believe it prudent not to act further with regard to any isolated changes to Isle of Man legislation until Treasury can carefully consider the UK
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100 outcome and bring forward proposals which consider the wider scope of discount rates and the use of periodic payments within the Isle of Man.
The President: Supplementary question, Mr Coleman.
105 Mr Coleman: Thank you, Mr President. Can I thank the Treasury Minister for his response? Would the Treasury Minister agree with me that the greater the variety of types of personal injury orders available to the Deemsters, the more chance there is of ensuring the claimant’s needs are provided for as long as is necessary, thereby financially protecting some of the most 110 vulnerable in our society and providing fairness to both the tortfeasor and the claimant? With periodic payment orders the tortfeasor only pays as long as support is required, unlike the lump sum order. Would the Minister consider the situation of a child being damaged during birth? That child could have a life expectancy of 70 years with advances in medical science. With the lump sum 115 calculation methodology, longevity is based upon actuarial tables. Estimates are made for inflation; for each constituent of care; and we have the ubiquitous discount rate, currently at 2.5%, which attempts to estimate the investment return on the lump sum based upon the actuarial life expectancy. This was originally based upon the return from index-linked gilts. If any of these estimates are too low, the lump sum could run out making the damaged person 120 extremely vulnerable. Periodic payment orders take much of the guesswork away.
The President: Hon. Member, I must ask you to conclude. Supplementary questions are not speeches.
125 Mr Coleman: Okay. Minister, will you undertake to bring forward this legislation as a matter of urgency to allow our Deemsters, as an option, to make non-consensual periodic payments, as you have said you are quite willing to do based upon workload? I think that this is an issue which has been going on now for over two years, since we produced the report – 130 The President: Hon. Member, I think you have asked the question.
Mr Coleman: Thank you, Mr President.
135 The President: Reply, sir.
The Minister: Mr President, I am sure I do agree with the Hon. Member. Nevertheless, as it stands at present, the Damages Act 1996 and the discount rate is being reviewed by the Lord Chancellor in the United Kingdom. I accept that review has gone on for 140 some considerable period of time. The Isle of Man’s position is that inherently our law’s awards and damages will follow very much those awarded in the United Kingdom. I think it is prudent at the moment that we try and get to the end of that review, see the recommendations and then act accordingly, once those recommendations have been made public.
145
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3. Manx Utilities Authority – Plans to freeze charges and review
The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:
What plans he has to freeze water rates, sewerage charges and electricity tariffs and to review the work of the Manx Utilities Authority?
The President: Question 3, the Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Hooper.
Mr Hopper: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Treasury Minister what plans he has to freeze water rates, sewerage 150 charges and electricity tariffs and to review the work of the Manx Utilities Authority?
The President: I call on the Treasury Minister, Mr Cannan, to reply.
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, as Hon. Members will be aware, the Manx Utilities Authority’s financial strategy, since it was formed in 2014, has been based on 155 a long-term financial plan that was developed at the time. The primary objective of the financial plan was to allow the Manx Utilities Authority to repay its outstanding debts, which amount to approximately £570 million. This financial plan was based on various assumptions, including the introduction of a sewerage charge to replace grant funding from central taxation, cost savings, inflation and fuel price projections. 160 Inevitably the underlying assumptions used for any financial plans change over time. The key changes to assumptions have included the reduction of projected electricity unit sales, the short- term reduction in natural gas purchase prices and the reduction of the original capital programme. It goes without saying that it is fundamental that the Manx Utilities Authority has a robust 165 and realistic plan to return it to a firm financial footing. However, this plan must also be responsive to the changes in economic circumstances and the Authority’s pricing strategies need to be reflective of this. Given the extent of these changes, however, I am commissioning an independent review of Manx Utilities’ financial position. The objective of the review is to assess the ongoing stability of 170 its long-term financial plan and the assumptions that are underlying it. The review will be led by Treasury and we will be seeking expressions of interest from suitably qualified and experienced entities to assist us with the review. However, the economic circumstances that I have described have meant that the Manx Utilities Authority’s performance has been ahead of the plan. This performance level allows a 175 brief pause in the planned increases in the sewerage rate without undermining the financial position of the Authority. Therefore, during the period where the review is being undertaken, the Council of Ministers has supported the Treasury’s request that: the sewerage rate increase be restricted to inflation only for the period 2017-18, and a motion in that respect will be brought before Tynwald in December; that the water rate maintains its increase with inflation in 180 line with previous Tynwald approvals and policies; and that Manx Utilities consider its electricity tariffs for 2017-18, and make that announcement as appropriate in the New Year.
The President: Supplementary question, Mr Hooper.
185 Mr Hooper: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to thank the Minister for that response. It is pleasing to hear that the sewerage rate will be frozen for the period of that review. However, it was a commitment included in the Minister’s manifesto for Chief Minister that he would be calling on his Treasury Minister to ______97 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
freeze the sewerage, water and electricity prices. I am just wondering why his position has 190 changed in the short time since that was issued?
The President: Treasury Minister.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 195 It has not changed. It is just that it did not quite work out the way I had planned. (Laughter)
The President: Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Ashford.
Mr Ashford: Thank you, Mr President. 200 A very quick supplementary: the Treasury Minister, in his Answer, referred to it increasing by inflation. Can he confirm to the Hon. Court whether that is RPI or CPI?
The President: Minister.
205 The Minister: Mr President, the full details of that will be brought before Tynwald next month, but as it stands at the moment I understand that we will be working on an RPI figure.
4. Capability Assessment review – Survey sample sizes
The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Ashford) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:
What the sample sizes for the telephone survey and discussion groups that are being undertaken in relation to the Capability Assessment review will be?
The President: Question 4, the Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Ashford.
210 Mr Ashford: Thank you, Mr President. I wish to ask the Treasury Minister what the sample sizes for the telephone survey and the discussion groups that are being undertaken in relation to the Capability Assessment review will be?
The President: I call on the Treasury Minister, Mr Cannan.
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, the survey of claimant experience 215 forms part of the review of the Personal Capability Assessments. Two hundred randomly chosen claimants have been written to and invited to opt-in to either a telephone interview or a group discussion at which they will have the opportunity to share experience and feedback. In addition, 100 claimants have been sent questionnaires which they will be able to return anonymously. The size of the discussion groups will depend on how many opt to take part. 220 Questionnaires and opt-in slips are also available from the public counter at Markwell House for anyone who wishes to participate in the review and my officers will circulate the questionnaires to Members for forwarding to any constituent who wishes to participate.
The President: Supplementary question, Mr Ashford. 225 Mr Ashford: Thank you, Mr President.
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Can I thank the Treasury Minister for that very positive reply? In terms of the 200 and 100 he mentions, would he be able to tell the Hon. Court what percentage that is of those that have had assessments undertaken? 230 The President: Minister.
The Minister: I will get that information for the Hon. Member, Mr President. I do not have it to hand.
ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT
5. Tidal technology – Creation of green technological hub
The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Ashford) to ask the Minister for Economic Development:
What attempts are being made to encourage creation of a green technological hub within the Island in relation to tidal technology? 235 The President: Question 5, the Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Ashford.
Mr Ashford: Thank you, Mr President. I wish to ask the Minister for Economic Development what attempts are being made to 240 encourage creation of a green technological hub within the Island, specifically in relation to tidal technology?
The President: The Minister for Economic Development, Mr Skelly, to reply.
245 The Minister for Economic Development (Mr Skelly): Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. In 2014, Tynwald received the Vision 2020, which included the Offshore Energy Hub Strategy. The Strategy seeks to maximise the potential benefits from offshore wind, tidal, gas and other energy sources in our waters by establishing the Island as a hub for offshore energy. Later that year, Tynwald approved the Council of Ministers’ Strategy for Offshore Energy 250 Production to support the development of offshore energy, including tidal power, for export to neighbouring jurisdictions. Since then, the Department has undertaken a number of actions to achieve these goals. The Department has worked closely with the Department of Infrastructure in seeking expressions of interest for tidal projects. 255 In October, 2015, Manx Tidal Energy Ltd was granted a survey licence to explore the possibility of developing a tidal array on the area of the seabed off the Point of Ayre. The agreement enables Manx Tidal Energy Ltd to carry out preliminary work to determine the practicality and commercial viability of offshore tidal production. Recently the Department hosted an offshore energy event in Liverpool at the International 260 Festival of Business. At this event we provided an update on the Island’s offshore renewable energy projects and explored the benefits we can provide in the offshore energy supply chain. The Department is continuing to work with developers in order to progress potential tidal projects and other opportunities in the offshore energy supply chain and to attract new clean- tech businesses to the Island. 265 ______99 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
The President: Supplementary question, Mr Ashford.
Mr Ashford: Thank you, Mr President. Would the Minister agree with me that this is an area that really does need to be looked at 270 very closely – not just tidal power, but wave power as well, which are two very different things? Certainly in relation to tidal power, there are now many ways of generating from tidal stream generators, tidal barrages, dynamic tidal power and tidal lagoons. Can he confirm if we actually have the expertise to be able to advance this further, and if he believes there will be positive progress and moves in the next year or so? 275 The President: Minister.
The Minister: Gura mie eu. I thank the Hon. Member for his supplementary question in highlighting the other 280 technologies in this particular space. The Isle of Man Government, I think, has got a very good track record of engaging with the appropriate expertise and, in particular, we have been leading some work with the British-Irish Council to ensure that we do have a joined-up strategy, because the Isle of Man in its own capacity cannot take on any of these particular projects. 285 He did highlight, of course, wave, and we are well aware of some of the developments in this area. Technology is improving quite fast, however, and commercial viability is left open at this particular moment. We are monitoring these and we are working very closely with the British- Irish Council with regard to the Isle of Man being an offshore energy hub.
290 The President: Mr Ashford.
Mr Ashford: Thank you, Mr President. Would the Minister consider, in the future, looking at the potential for grant systems for these sort of technologies, because one of the key things is, although they have a high capital 295 cost in the initial stage, which sometimes deters private investment, once they are up and running, running costs can actually be quite low?
The President: Reply, sir.
300 The Minister: Gura mie eu. I do not believe it is up to the Isle of Man to provide the grants. It is really part of the wider remit of the British Islands. There are subsidies already in place with other jurisdictions and that is where the Isle of Man has the opportunity to actually partner. The other project that we are already progressing is the wind opportunity, and that is again 305 partnering with our colleagues in the UK, in the north-west of the Isle of Man, where we will have the potential of offshore wind production in our waters that will generate revenue and jobs and be a benefit for the Isle of Man. Essentially, this is money that is actually brought in either through private investment or subsidies from our neighbouring jurisdictions. 310 The President: Final supplementary, Mr Ashford.
Mr Ashford: Thank you, Mr President. Final supplementary: would the Minister agree that a lot of the grants available throughout 315 the British Isles are EU grants and, subject to certain developments elsewhere, may not be available in a few years’ time?
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The President: Mr Skelly.
320 The Minister: Gura mie eu. Yes we would recognise that and, again, I would just highlight the work that the Isle of Man does with the British-Irish Council in this area. We are having a joined-up approach with regard to offshore energy in our waters and our neighbouring waters.
EDUCATION AND CHILDREN
6. Schools’ centralised catering service – Level of service
The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Ashford) to ask the Minister for Education and Children:
Whether centralised catering services for primary and secondary schools are delivering a better level of service than that which was previously delivered by the schools themselves?
The President: Question 6, Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Ashford. 325 Mr Ashford: Thank you, Mr President. I wish to ask the Minister for Education and Children whether centralised catering services for primary and secondary schools are delivering a better level of service than that which was previously delivered by the schools themselves? 330 The President: I call on the Minister for Education and Children, Mr Cregeen.
The Minister for Education and Children (Mr Cregeen): Thank you, Mr President. The Department has sought the views of all primary and secondary schools on whether they 335 regard the level of service provided by the centralised catering service as better or worse than when the services were provided by the Department. Needless to say, the views were mixed. One felt the service was better, with the rest being split between there being no change in the service and that the level of service and the quality of the food was not as good as previously delivered by the schools themselves. 340 The feedback has been given to the centralised catering service who are working on addressing the issues raised. The Departments are working together to identify the effectiveness and efficiencies of the centralised catering services.
The President: Mr Ashford, supplementary. 345 Mr Ashford: Thank you, Mr President. Would the Minister agree that it is something that needs to be looked at closely? There are many parents concerned about the quality – particularly in secondary education – where there have been instances … For instance, I am aware that it has been suggested that cottage pie is 350 being served where it is a pile of tinned mince with a hash brown on top. I think the Trade Descriptions Act should come into play there! (Laughter) Would the Minister agree with me as well that it is important that portion sizes are correct, because they seem to have declined since this catering service was centralised?
355 The President: Minister. ______101 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
The Minister: I totally agree. (Laughter)
The President: Mr Speaker.
360 The Speaker: Does the Minister consider that catering in schools is a core part of the Department’s remit, or is it being considered for outsourcing?
The President: Minister.
365 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. There are varying views across all the schools around the provision that is actually provided through centralised catering services. The Hon. Member, Mr Hooper, Member of the Department, is leading up, from the Department’s position, a review of this service, so we will see what provisions can be brought forward and hopefully we can get a better service.
7. University College Isle of Man – Cost for use of the Nunnery
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Minister for Education and Children:
How much University College Isle of Man is paying ICT Limited for the use of the Nunnery to deliver its BSc Computer Science degree?
370 The President: Question 7, the Hon. Member for Onchan, Ms Edge.
Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. I wish to ask the Minister for Education and Children how much University College Isle of Man is paying ICT Ltd for the use of the Nunnery to deliver its BSc Computer Science degree? 375 The President: Minister for Education and Children, Mr Cregeen.
The Minister for Education and Children (Mr Cregeen): Thank you, Mr President. We are unable to provide a breakdown of this individual degree course, since UCM is 380 delivering several courses at this site. UCM is paying ICT Ltd £5,097.17 per month, £61,166 per annum, for rent of 20 rooms and shared spaces at the Nunnery site, some of the classrooms and some of the staff offices. The rate is based upon floor usage in a location such as Castletown, rather than the Douglas-based property. 385 There are four undergraduate degree courses based there, including a BSC Computer Science. The number of full-time students in total is 120, with 40 of these studying computer science. There are also 66 part-time students and a further 30 who are on short courses. There is also a service charge of £6,105 per month, £73,260 per annum, which covers utilities, cleaning, security, internal and external maintenance, unfettered Wi-Fi access and 390 insurance. Rental, including the contribution towards operating costs, is £133 per metre per annum, and this equates to £12.35 per square foot. The advice of the Strategic Asset Management Unit was sought and it was felt that these rental terms represented value for money. Entering into the agreement has provided greater capacity at the Homefield Road site and 395 benefited existing students by enabling them to continue their studies uninterrupted. Had
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another site been selected, site authorisation would have been needed and obtained from the University. The environment and relationship with ICT Ltd is allowing the Department to evaluate a ‘bring your own device’, which could have cost-saving benefits if rolled out across other areas of 400 the Department. The provision of the Nunnery will be reviewed by the University of Chester at the end of this academic year.
The President: Supplementary question, Ms Edge.
405 Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. The Minister has confirmed that it has released space at University College Isle of Man. I would like him to confirm what is the strategy for outsourcing if we had the space at University College in Homefield Road?
410 The President: Minister.
The Minister: We have not looked at the outsourcing. If the Member could clarify it: outsourcing which areas? Is it part of the provision that we are already carrying out at Homefield, or is it the parts that we are doing down at the Nunnery? 415 The President: Supplementary question, Ms Edge.
Ms Edge: The outsourcing to ICT, I believe, also includes lecturers from the College down to the Nunnery site. If the space is available at Homefield Road, why are we not utilising it and why 420 we are providing funds to an external operator?
The President: Minister.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 425 I was advised that, if we were to run the courses at the Homefield site, the only times that we would be able to run these courses would either be in the evening or at the weekend, as there is not the capacity at the Homefield site to carry out these courses.
ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND AGRICULTURE
8. King Scallop industry – Statement and plans for best return
The President: Question 8, the Hon. Member of Council, Mr Crookall. 430 Mr Crookall: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture if he would make a statement on the King Scallop industry, and what he is doing to maximise the best return for the Isle of Man and those in the industry? 435 The President: I call on the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture, Mr Boot.
The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture (Mr Boot): Thank you, Mr President. I thank the Hon. Member for the opportunity to make this statement.
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440 The Isle of Man King Scallop fishery has expanded significantly in recent years with a year-on- year increase in vessel numbers and a corresponding decline in landings per unit effort. In 2015, the King Scallop fishery was worth £4.5 million at first sale value to the Manx economy; and on- Island processing approximately doubles that value. In response to growing concerns, earlier this year my Department consulted on proposals for 445 the future management of the King Scallop fishery. The aim was to ensure long-term sustainability of the stock. There was substantial support for a reduction in the number of licences issued. As a result, the number of licences for the season commencing on 1st November 2016 in the 3-12 mile zone was reduced from 156 to 88. Following subsequent appeals against refusal this has risen to 94, 450 so there is a 40% reduction in the number of vessels. We have also reduced the number of licenses in the 0-3 nautical mile zone from 89 to 42, a reduction of 53%. Over two-thirds of those vessels are Manx. At the same time, a recent consultation on inshore marine management resulted in the creation of five additional no-fish conservation zones in the 0-3 mile area of the territorial sea. 455 This makes a total of 11 zones covering 10% of the whole territorial sea. Our King Scallop season runs from 1st November to 31st May and on the opening day this year, 62 vessels were recorded as fishing. The vast majority were in the area known as ‘Targets’, off the north-west coast. Of these, 43% were local vessels compared to 29% on the opening day in 2015. 460 On 1st November, it is estimated a total of 290 tonnes of scallops were taken from the fishery; almost 800 tonnes were taken in the first six days of the season, representing 24% of the total landings recorded in 2015-16 season. Initial data indicates that, of the 800 tonnes caught in the first six days, 41% was landed to the Isle of Man processors. However, as a result, local processors are now oversupplied. 465 Furthermore, the price of scallops on the fresh market has dropped due to supplies not only from us but from the Channel and the French. Mr President, this situation is simply not sustainable: an estimated 24% of the entire fishery caught in one week. It is not sustainable for the future and it will not be the case in the future. Yesterday, I took decisive action to end this race to fish. My Department has issued a variation to 470 the terms of the licence to limit the total catch per vessel to 1,400 kilos per day. This equates to 35 to 40 bags per day, per vessel. This catch limit will apply for a temporary period of six weeks and will protect the fishery during the initial part of the season. It will protect the environment, prolong the fishery and control the rate of harvest. It will be monitored closely using a range of enforcement methods, 475 including the Barrule and our satellite-based vessel monitoring system. This daily catch limit is in addition to the restrictions already in place to the scallop fleet, including a curfew where no fishing is permitted between 6 p.m. and 6 a.m. and a restriction on the number of dredgers used per vessel. There are also four closed areas in place within the territorial sea specifically to protect scallops and these remain closed. 480 A stock assessment for King Scallops within Manx waters by DEFA’s Fishery science advisors, Bangor University, is underway. This will improve our knowledge and understanding of stock levels. DEFA will consider the stock assessment outcome as soon as it is available. In the meantime, the introduction of the daily catch limit is a short-term precaution to minimise the risk of over-exploitation. 485 DEFA is committed to ensuring the long-term sustainability of this valuable fishery. If necessary, we will not hesitate to introduce further management measures. We are also working closely with industry partners and other Departments to fulfil our aspirations under the Future Fisheries Strategy to maximise the economic benefit to the Island of all our fisheries. This was started by my predecessor and I am totally committed to driving it forward. 490 A Member: Hear, hear. ______104 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
The President: Supplementary question, Mr Crookall.
Mr Crookall: Thank you, Mr President. 495 Mr President, I would like to start by thanking the Minister for his very comprehensive reply. I was delighted to hear, on 2nd November, the very next day after the fishing started, Dr David Beard from the Manx Fish Producers Organisation said that they had been working very closely with the Department, and I was glad to hear that. Nevertheless, there are quite a few questions on this, Mr President, but I would like to start off by saying, with regard to the policing of the 500 fishing that goes on, how is DEFA able to enforce that? I know we had a press release that said that they had spoken to one boat that looked as though they might have been fishing out of hours, but the policing of so many boats over such an area … Are they policing the licences and the catch size? I will leave that to start with, Mr President.
505 The President: Reply, sir, Mr Boot.
The Minister: Enforcement is not easy, as the Hon. Member alludes to. There is a dedicated team of four fisheries officers who carry out enforcement duties at sea on the Barrule and on land and that includes quayside landing checks and factory inspections. 510 The satellite monitoring system gives officers access to accurate vessel activity with polling increased to every 15 minutes, so it is almost real time. This enables them to track the vessels, and particularly there was criticism that people were fishing at night. It enables them to be tracked to determine whether they are fishing by the speed and track that they are taking. It is a very useful tool. 515 I can confirm that between 1st and 8th November, there were three sea patrols and two over the curfew hours to ensure compliance there. There has been one shore check and one factory check carried out in that time.
The President: Further supplementary, Mr Crookall. 520 Mr Crookall: Thank you, Mr President. I was delighted to hear the Minister say that this was not sustainable. DEFA, as you know, has been working with the fishing industry to make this a very sustainable industry into the future and, at the moment, we have seen that what is happening is not sustainable. 525 How closely is the Department working with the fishermen? What I am referring to here is, over the last few years, we have probably all had letters from the fishing industry, from those fishermen that go out there to do this job, that say, quite often, they are not listened to. DEFA get Bangor up to do the work for them, but the fishermen are saying – to quote – ‘The fishing is out there; the King Scallops are out there.’ They are not being listened to. They have proved 530 again this year that the fishing is out there. I am delighted that you brought in a quota from this morning – probably two weeks too late. Is it possible for DEFA to bring in a quota from the beginning rather than having a free-for-all where we have seen nearly 300 tonnes taken in the first day?
535 The President: Reply, sir.
The Minister: I can assure you, Hon. Member, that we will be working very closely with the fisheries industry in the future. The Future Fisheries is a five-year strategy for sustainable development of the Isle of Man sea 540 fisheries and marine environment. The idea of that strategy is obviously to capture more economic activity, as well as make the fisheries sustainable. We have established a working group and three subgroups to assist an overall working group to focus on specific areas using specific expertise. They will report back to the group for final ______105 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
consideration. The three subgroups broadly include the main areas covered by the Strategy, 545 specifically: industry development, fisheries and marine management and sea fisheries products. I would also add that the recently approved Agricultural Fisheries Grant Scheme offers substantial support for those in the industry wishing to boost their business and promote economic growth and diversification. This Scheme specifically targets private food producers on- Island and the processed locally harvested food sectors such as fish. 550 The President: Mr Speaker.
The Speaker: Thank you. Just to pick up on the point made about enforcement by the Hon. Member of Council and the 555 Minister, has the Minister considered working in conjunction with the Isle of Man Coastguard – part of the Department of Infrastructure – and sharing the monitoring and transponder data with them? As they do regular patrols of the coastline, they may be able to provide some verification in what they are seeing with the data that the transponders are getting, especially out of hours. 560 The President: Reply, sir.
The Minister: To be honest, I have not, and I will take that back to the Department.
565 The President: Mr Crookall, supplementary.
Mr Crookall: Thank you, Mr President. Finally, can I just ask the Minister to confirm that the quota from today is 1,400 kilograms per boat? This morning one of the radio stations, I think, put out that it was 14 kilograms. Could you 570 just confirm it is 1,400 kilograms?
The Minister: I think my phone would have been red hot by now if it had been 14 kilos. It is indeed 1,400 kilos.
575 The President: In relation to the last Question, can I remind Hon. Members that Standing Orders provide for the circulation in advance of a ministerial reply where it is likely to be a lengthy statement, and that will, of course, be published in full in Hansard, so for future reference, this is something to be considered.
9. Non-invasive prenatal testing – Department’s plans
The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Dr Allinson) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:
What her Department’s plans are relating to non-invasive prenatal testing?
580 The President: Question 9, the Hon. Member for Ramsey, Dr Allinson.
Dr Allinson: Thank you, Mr President, I would like to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care what her Department’s plans are relating to non-invasive prenatal testing?
585 The President: I call on the Minister for Health and Social Care, Mrs Beecroft.
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The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mrs Beecroft): Mr President, non-invasive prenatal testing – now usually called cfDNA or cell-free DNA testing – is a blood test which can detect three chromosomal disorders: Down’s, Edwards’ and Patau’s Syndromes during pregnancy. 590 The test does not give a definitive diagnosis – it is still a screening test – but it does have a better detection rate and a lower false/positive rate than the existing screening test. It is not currently routinely offered to pregnant women either in the UK or here on the Island. The National Screening Committee, which is the body responsible for making recommendations about population screening programmes in the UK, recommended that the 595 cfDNA tests should be evaluated to see how well it would work in an NHS screening programme pathway. The evaluation showed that the addition of cfDNA testing to the existing UK foetal anomaly screening programme led to a reduction in the number of women who need to be offered an invasive diagnostic test. The National Screening Committee has recommended that cfDNA testing should be added to 600 the list on the existing foetal anomaly screening programme that is offered to all pregnant women. We understand that the UK Government has now supported this recommendation and that the cfDNA test will be rolled out across the UK in a phased implementation programme. We do not yet have the details or timeline for this. Pregnant women here in the Isle of Man are offered foetal anomaly screening using the same 605 tests and pathways as in the UK NHS. The cfDNA test would be an addition to the pathway and would be offered to women whose initial screening test indicated a higher risk of a pregnancy with a chromosomal disorder. Women who have a positive cfDNA test would then be offered definitive diagnosis using an invasive test at the specialist centre in Liverpool. It is therefore important that we time the introduction of this test to fit with the introduction of the test across 610 the North West of England so that any Manx woman who needs referral for diagnosis to Liverpool will move seamlessly into the pathway there. Once we know the timeframe for introduction of the cfDNA in the North West we can make a final plan on implementation here. As the test should reduce the number of women who need to travel to Liverpool for invasive testing, we anticipate that the additional costs for the DHSC will be very low and there may 615 possibly be a small overall cost saving.
The President: Supplementary question, Dr Allinson.
Dr Allinson: Thank you, Mr President. 620 I would like to thank the Minister for making such a comprehensive statement. One of the problems of setting health budgets is innovations and new technologies like this. Theoretically this is a game-changer in terms of reducing the necessity for invasive procedures on pregnant women. One of the problems with any screening test is consent and information beforehand. That is 625 not just with this but also in terms of breast cancer, bowel cancer and cervical screening cancer that we also offer on the Island. Could I ask the Minister to also say that she is willing to look at any increased training for staff to give the correct counselling support to help families through what may be a very difficult time given a diagnosis with prenatal screening? 630 The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Yes, I thank the questioner for that very question because it is very important that everybody receives the correct information and the correct guidance, support and help and 635 particularly at that very difficult time. I have no hesitation in saying, yes, I am absolutely positive the Department will be taking every effort to make sure that is the case.
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10. and 18. Social workers and parents’ meetings – Guidance and procedures for recording
The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Dr Allinson) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:
10. What the procedures are for parents to record child protection conferences relating to their family; and whether such recordings could improve accuracy of minutes and restore confidence in the service?
The Hon. Member for Garff (Mrs Caine) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:
18. In respect of interviews of parents carried out by Children and Families Social Services: (a) whether parents who wish to record meetings with children’s social workers require the consent of the social workers present and, if so, in what legislation is the requirement to obtain consent specified; (b) what written guidance her Department has issued to children’s social workers regarding parents recording meetings with social workers; and (c) whether the advice of the Information Commissioner has been sought on this matter?
640 The President: Now, Hon. Members, Questions 10 and 18: I shall invite the Members asking Question 10, Dr Allinson, and Question 18, the Hon. Member for Garff, Mrs Caine, to ask them together and the Minister will give a composite reply. First of all, the Hon. Member, Dr Allinson.
645 Dr Allinson: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care what the procedures are for parents to record child protection conferences relating to their family; and whether such recordings could improve the accuracy of minutes and restore confidence in the service?
The President: The Hon. Member for Garff, Mrs Caine.
Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President. 650 I would like to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care, in respect of interviews of parents carried out by Children and Families Social Services: (a) whether parents who wish to record meetings with children’s social workers require the consent of the social workers present and, if so, in what legislation is the requirement to obtain consent specified; (b) what written guidance her Department has issued to children’s social workers regarding parents recording meetings 655 with social workers; and (c) whether the advice of the Information Commissioner has been sought on this matter?
The President: I call on the Minister to reply, Mrs Beecroft.
660 The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mrs Beecroft): Mr President, in response to Question 10 firstly, the Department has been making further enquiries into this matter. It has considered the findings of the Transparency Project in the UK and has taken legal advice from the Attorney Generals Chambers. As a result, the Department will introduce a policy for the audio recording of child protection 665 conferences and other meetings with parents and families. The final draft is being considered and will soon be introduced. In the interim, the Department has already offered this facility to some parents meetings. We intend to use digital recording equipment, chosen after consultation with the Police and Social Security about the systems that they use. The Department believes that this protocol will ______108 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
670 address the vulnerabilities acknowledged in the Transparency Project about the problems relating to recordings made by parents. Such recordings are regarded as ‘for personal use’ and so not subject to the Data Protection Act, which affords a child’s information some protection and confidentiality. Unprotected, problems can arise in relation to distribution of recordings which may be to the 675 detriment of a child if shared publicly. Identification of a child becomes a concern, as does the risk of sharing, which could be used for abusive purposes. Recordings may be edited or taken out of context and there are examples of children’s private information being uploaded onto social media. The Department agrees with the sentiments of the Transparency Project that social workers 680 have nothing to fear from being recorded and are accountable for the work that they do. Particularly in response to Question 18, with part (a), the issue is not that a social worker’s consent is needed, as legally it is not, but that the recording should not be distributed to the detriment of the child. The proposed approach will be for the Department to digitally record the meeting and, unless exemptions apply, we will provide the parents with a copy for their own 685 personal use. Part (b), as I stated, the draft protocol is currently being considered by the Attorney Generals Chambers and, when agreed, we will issue to all staff and to the public. In response to (c), the Department has sought legal advice on the drafting of its protocol.
690 The President: Supplementary question, Dr Allinson.
Dr Allinson: I would like to thank the Minister again for a very comprehensive response to this, which I am sure will mean a lot to parents involved, unfortunately, in child protection conferences. 695 As a GP, I have been made aware from the General Medical Council that similarly patients can record consultations with me, without necessarily my consent, so I also thank her for pointing out that it is the same with social workers. Can I ask whether she has obtained any legal guidance in terms of the risk of people – whether it be parents or social workers – using information through social media. Obviously this 700 already exists with written records, but there is increased concern in terms of using recorded records as well.
The President: Minister to reply.
705 The Minister: Yes, thank you. Legal guidance will be sought before the new protocol is definitively decided upon and we will be taking that into consideration, because it is a very tricky and delicate matter and we must get that right.
710 The President: The Hon. Member for Garff, Mrs Caine.
Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President. I would like say to the Minister, I am sure she realises the trauma and the stress that a lot of these families are under when they are having these interviews, and the previous record where 715 there has been such tension and friction between them has not assisted. There are very many people who are fearful of social workers –
The President: Can we have a question, please?
720 Mrs Caine: – so this policy cannot come in soon enough. Can she give us any indication when the new protocol will be coming into force? ______109 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Yes, we are definitely concerned about the trauma that it causes everybody in 725 these situations and we will be bringing it in as soon as possible. As I say, it is currently being drafted. We need legal advice following that, but we hope to implement it in the very near future.
The President: The Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Ashford. 730 Mr Ashford: Thank you, Mr President. The Minister mentioned in the original Answer about the Department effectively recording the meetings and looking at ways of doing that. Can I ask the Minister, of those recordings, what access rights will parents actually have? Will they be automatically given a copy of the recording 735 of the meeting or is it purely going to be for the Department’s purposes?
The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Thank you. 740 I would say that aspect is actually included within the new protocol. Obviously, I cannot give all the details of that at the moment, because it is still in draft form and we need legal advice, but the intention is to make it as accessible as we possibly can.
The President: Hon. Member for Douglas East, Miss Bettison. 745 Miss Bettison: I think it is an unfortunate position where the good faith of the majority of social workers is being brought into question owing to the reported actions of a few, and I think we must remember that. Would the Minister agree that the introduction of any recording system must be in a manner 750 that protects the child at the forefront, their carers, and also the social workers involved?
A Member: Hear, hear.
The President: Minister to reply. 755 The Minister: Yes, I have no problem agreeing that. First and foremost, it is the child that we have to consider, but certainly the social workers can at times need protection as well.
The President: Supplementary question, Mr Ashford. 760 Mr Ashford: Thank you, Mr President: the last supplementary from me. The Minister mentioned the problems with parental recordings and the possibility of social media. Would the Minister accept that one of the things the Transparency Project that she referred to has identified is that there is already statutory law to prevent anyone identifying a 765 child, including a parent, and those recordings are covered by that? Would the Minister accept that in the event a parent does that, they themselves can actually be prosecuted?
The President: Minister to reply.
770 The Minister: I actually was not aware that a parent could be prosecuted. I have not taken advice on that angle, but certainly, yes, they should not be doing it other than openly in the first place. We are hoping that some sort of agreement can be reached, that they agree not to put it on social media. ______110 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
11. Children and Families Social Services – Social workers employed
The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Dr Allinson) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:
How many social workers are employed by Children and Families Social Services; and of these, how many are (a) temporary staff and (b) employed through an agency?
775 The President: We turn now to Question 11. Hon. Member for Ramsey, Dr Allinson.
Dr Allinson: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care, how many social workers are employed by Children and Families Social Services; and of these, how many are (a) temporary 780 staff and (b) employed through an agency?
The President: I call on the Minister for Health and Social Care, Mrs Beecroft.
The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mrs Beecroft): Mr President, Children and Families 785 have the following number of social workers working in the service as at 8th November 2016. There are 27 qualified social worker posts in the establishment. Of these, 17 are permanent employees of the Department and 10 are employed through an agency. There are also eight operational managers and of these, four are permanent employees of the Department and four are employed through an agency. 790 There are three independent reviewing officers and one senior independent reviewing officer, all of whom are qualified social workers, and who are permanent employees of the Department. There are three senior managers who are qualified social workers and permanent employees of the Department, and one senior manager who is a qualified social worker, who is a temporary 795 employee of the Department. There is one further qualified social worker employed in another role in the Division.
The President: Supplementary question, Dr Allinson.
800 Dr Allinson: I would like to thank the Minister for her comprehensive reply. One of the things that hopefully we will be discussing in December’s Tynwald is the Social Affairs Policy Review Committee’s report on Social Services. One of the problems with the reliance on agency staff can be lack of continuity of care, which is compounded sometimes by poor record keeping, which the previous Question hopefully will correct. Could she say that 805 following Tynwald’s discussion of the very comprehensive Committee report, she will be looking at the structure of Social Services again, particularly in terms of the number of staff that are needed, to try to minimise the number of agency staff that are employed?
A Member: Hear, hear. 810 The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. That is something that I will take back to the Department to look at the structure, but I would 815 say that following a recent recruitment campaign, the Department has made offers of permanent appointment in October to four social workers and a fixed term contract offer for a further social worker. We are waiting at the moment for pre-employment processes to be
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conducted prior to them commencing employment within Children and Families, because we are aware of the lack of continuity that using temporary staff can bring into the system. 820 Thank you.
HOME AFFAIRS
12. Constabulary budgets – Minister’s plans
The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Ashford) to ask the Minister for Home Affairs:
Whether he will resist any further cuts to Constabulary budgets in the forthcoming budget process?
The President: Question 12. Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Ashford.
Mr Ashford: Thank you, Mr President. I wish to ask the Minister for Home Affairs, whether he will resist any further cuts to 825 Constabulary budgets in the forthcoming budget process?
The President: I call on the Minister for Home Affairs, Mr Malarkey.
The Minister for Home Affairs (Mr Malarkey): Thank you, Mr President. 830 Can I thank the Hon. Member for his interest in the funding provisions of the Isle of Man Constabulary. I should firstly make it very clear that nothing at this stage has been decided in relation to Department budgets and the Council of Ministers will continue to consider all budgetary options in all areas without ring-fencing any. Having said that, I am also aware that the Council recognises the critical contribution of the 835 Isle of Man Constabulary to maintain the safety and security of the Island and the residents, and will clearly bear this in mind on any proposals for the upcoming budgets.
The President: Supplementary question, Mr Ashford.
840 Mr Ashford: Thank you, Mr President. While I welcome the fact that nothing has been decided yet by the Council of Ministers in relation to the budgets, would the Minister agree with me that the type of crime the Constabulary is having to investigate is now changing? It is more and more focused on financial crime and cybercrime, and the issue of both of those, would the Minister accept, is that they 845 come at a higher cost, both in terms of resources in labour and also evidential procedures? And so although we have the lowest crime rate since 1971, would he accept that the type of crime being investigated could ultimately end up costing more?
The President: Minister. 850 The Minister: Indeed, Mr President. I thank the hon. Member for highlighting this. All the time the Constabulary is having to deal with more and more financial crime and money- laundering. We have some historical sex offenders which are pushing the Force in different directions with the resources. It is also very important that we keep everyday neighbourhood 855 policing at a level of what it is at the moment. People have come to understand and respect that on the Island. ______112 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
So yes, there are many challenges for the Constabulary, within the Department, but as I pointed out in my original Answer, the Council of Ministers is aware of this. I took the opportunity only last week, when talking to the Treasury Minister, of highlighting one or two of 860 the problems that the Constabulary is actually facing in the future, and how often we are actually pushed to our maximum with resources at the moment. The Constabulary is also looking, through the Department, at other means of financing through seized asset funds, etc., and these are ongoing problems and commitments that we have within the Department. 865 The President: Supplementary, Mr Ashford.
Mr Ashford: Thank you, Mr President. When it comes to decision time of the Council of Ministers, can I ask, will the Minister be 870 highlighting the fact that a few years ago we were spending £164 per head on policing, and we are now spending £149 per head, so the Constabulary has seen effectively a cut equal to £15 per head of population since the cuts began? Would he actually accept that is a substantial cut, and that the Constabulary has already done their fair share?
875 The President: Reply, sir.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I think I should have had the Hon. Member in my Department! I think he would have been a great asset to the Department of Home Affairs. (Laughter) 880 I can also add to his quotes, that in 2003-04, the budget for the Department was £13.115 million; in 2015-16, it was £12.73 million. So this highlights how many cuts have been given to the Department over the last 10 to 12 years. So yes, I will be happy to look for as much money as possible for the Department, but I like to think the Council of Ministers are working together. Every Minister would like more money for the Departments. Our job is to go out and find that 885 money for our Departments, Mr President.
INFRASTRUCTURE
13. Public sector housing administration – Reform and timescale
The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:
What progress has been made in relation to the reform of public sector housing administration; and what his timescale is for the implementation of any changes?
The President: Question 13, Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Hooper.
Mr Hooper: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Infrastructure, what progress has been made in relation to 890 the reform of public sector housing administration; and what his timescale is for the implementation of any changes?
The President: I call on the Minister for Infrastructure, Hon. Member, Mr Harmer.
895 The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Harmer): Thank you, Mr President. ______113 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
In November 2013, Tynwald approved 25 policy recommendations to reform affordable housing provision. A very comprehensive statement on reform of public and affordable housing was made to this Hon. Court in July this year. I am happy to update on progress. Reform to date includes a 35% reduction in housing waiting lists since 2013; the introduction 900 of fixed-term tenancy agreements in April 2014; new access and eligibility criteria for older persons’ sheltered housing. Since September, a pilot for the combined housing waiting lists has been operating in the south of the Island. This has required close working and collaboration between my Department and the local authorities, and I am grateful to those housing authorities who have been involved in delivering this very positive initiative. 905 The tangible benefits already delivered by this pilot are that officers are reporting a more rapid turnaround of stock, helping to reduce rent loss resulting from empty properties and, most importantly, increased choice for applicants onto the list. In addition, there are many other advantages to a shared waiting list, such as joint allocation meetings, improved sharing of information and the use of a shared IT platform, which I think is the first between Government 910 and local authorities. All housing providers engaged in the pilot are now using a consistent application and allocation process to help the customer. It is hoped that soon the success seen in the south of the Island will extend to other parts of the Island. Mr President, Hon. Members can be assured the reform is ongoing. We will continue to 915 explore new ways of working to deliver positive progress on behalf of the people of the Isle of Man. In respect of the second part of the Hon. Member’s Question – and returning briefly to the 25 recommendations – four have been completed, 18 are being delivered and the final three are due to be commenced in the next six months. 920 The nature and complexity of this work means that there are a significant number and range of stakeholders involved and my Department is continuing to work with them as all six programmes progress. A number of policy and legislative changes will require the consideration of Members of this Hon. Court, not least the replacement of existing legislation. 925 The President: Supplementary question, Mr Hooper.
Mr Hooper: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to thank the Minister for his response. Some of the discussion there was actually 930 quite helpful. Will further devolution of the administration of public sector housing be a priority in the Minister’s Programme for Government, taking the delivery of housing more into the local authority role and leaving the Department acting as a regulator and policy director rather than providing housing directly? 935 The President: Minister.
The Minister: Yes, that is my intention.
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14. Douglas Promenade scheme – Total cost to date
The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:
What the total cost to date of all expenditure incurred on the Douglas Promenade scheme is; and how it is broken down? 940 The President: Question 14, the Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Hooper.
Mr Hooper: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Infrastructure what the total cost to date of all expenditure incurred on the Douglas Promenade scheme is; and how it is broken down?
The President: I call on the Minister to reply, Mr Harmer. 945 The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Harmer): Thank you, Mr President. The total spend to date is £3,017,618.59. £1.64 million was spent on phase 1 works. Other significant spend has been £248,000 on site investigations; £173,000 on early contractor involvement in tramway work; £70,000 on planning applications; and the balance of £861,000 950 on a range of professional fees, including specialist traffic modelling and safety assessments.
The President: Supplementary question, Mr Hooper.
Mr Hooper: Thank you, Mr President. 955 £3 million for not a shovel in the ground seems a lot of money. Do these costs include the costs to date of work performed in preparation for the upcoming work at the north end of the Promenade and how much further cost is anticipated before the actual scheme will commence?
The President: Minister. 960 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. To my knowledge, no, the north end at the moment is a temporary fix. As mentioned in this Court last month, the Department will be coming forward with proposals in December for the principle and then to a financial motion in January. 965 The President: Hon. Member for Council, Mr Anderson.
Mr Anderson: Thank you, Mr President. Can the Minister confirm that money has been spent on the first phase, including that 970 £3 million that he mentioned – the first phase opposite the Sea Terminal?
The Minister: Yes, I can.
The President: Hon. Member for Council, Mr Crookall. 975 Mr Crookall: Thank you, Mr President. Can the Minister also confirm that money has been spent on the new tram rails?
The President: Minister. 980
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The Minister: When we come with the principle next Tynwald, provided that is supported, and then with the financial motion, yes.
The President: Further supplementary, Mr Crookall. 985 Mr Crookall: Sorry, Mr President. Just to clarify, so has the Department already got the rails for the new tram railway if it is moved or not?
990 The President: Minister.
The Minister: Yes.
The President: Mr Crookall. (Laughter) 995 Mr Crookall: Sorry, last one, Mr President. So that cost has not been included in the £3 million?
The Minister: Not in this £3 million, no. 1000 A Member: It is another £3 million! (Laughter and Interjections)
15. Road building – Cost and build time
The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Dr Allinson) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:
In relation to the last 10 major road projects what the approximate cost is for building 100 metres of road; how long this takes; and how these figures compare with the rate and cost of road building in the UK or Republic of Ireland?
The President: We turn to Question 15. The Hon. Member for Ramsey, Dr Allinson.
Dr Allinson: Thank you, Mr President. 1005 I would like to ask the Minister for Infrastructure, in relation to the last 10 major road projects what the approximate cost is for building 100 metres of road; how long this takes; and how these figures compare with the rate and cost of road building in the UK or Republic of Ireland?
1010 The President: The Minister for Infrastructure, Mr Harmer.
The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Harmer): Thank you, Mr President. The cost of road construction cannot simply be averaged based on the number of schemes. Each project has different variables which substantially influence the cost and timescale. 1015 These variables include scale of work, location, identified utilities and services already in the ground, unidentified utilities and services in the ground, depth of excavation required to renew or go around utility services, ground conditions, whether the road is closed to traffic or has to be left open, traffic management requirements, working restrictions such as restricted working hours, quality and specification of materials. To break down and extract the specific cost would 1020 take many days of detailed work and even then the answers may not be reliable or meaningful. ______116 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
Comparisons by length of road are inappropriate as road widths vary. A square metre rate is more helpful. In the Isle of Man, a typical full depth road reconstruction in accordance with British Standard EN 13108-1 will cost approximately £150 per square metre excluding services. This compares favourably to a UK construction cost of between £100 and £130 per square metre 1025 in a rural location, with a few services or drainage issues, and where consideration is given to the cost of importing bitumen.
The President: Supplementary question, Dr Allinson.
1030 Dr Allinson: I would like to thank the Minister for his reply to this rather difficult Question. Roads and infrastructure are essential for the Island and its economy and I recognise that road construction and maintenance is a vital investment for the Isle of Man’s construction industry. I am glad that the DOI are consulting on a roadwork code. However, it seems that there is a lack of any formal economic assessment when new projects are being planned and local 1035 businesses can lose large amounts of money and even go bankrupt due to extensive roadworks affecting their businesses. Commuters can face extra hours each week stuck in traffic, keeping them away from their work and their families. An example is in Ramsey, where roadworks last year cost the locally based supermarket – which pays Manx taxes and is a mainstream employer in the town – over £300,000 in lost 1040 revenue.
The President: May we have a question, sir?
Dr Allinson: Certainly. 1045 The President: Hon. Members, (A Member: Hear, hear.) I do wish to make the point that supplementary questions are intended to be purely that: questions, not statements; not questions after lengthy preambles that are statements. Please keep in accordance with Standing Orders in that questions must be concise and to the point. 1050 Dr Allinson.
Dr Allinson: I beg your pardon, Mr President, I am new to this. I would like to ask the Minister to consider tendering the Lezayre Road project and getting expressions of interest from firms across. This is an £800,000 project for 1,100 metres of road, 1055 which is expected to last 18 months. Could he consider tendering this to firms with the equipment and experience of laying large tracks of road quickly and effectively, to minimise disruption and economic losses to the Island’s economy, and particularly in Ramsey?
The President: Reply, sir. We got there in the end! (Laughter) 1060 Mr Cretney: A long and winding road.
A Member: Roadworks!
1065 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. Just to clarify on cost, one of the key things I was saying before is the cost of bitumen which is about 40% higher than the UK due to the import cost. With regard generally to the policy of using on-Island contractors rather than off-Island is obviously to support the local economy (A Member: Hear, hear.) and that obviously has to be a 1070 key thing to consider. Costs for other road treatments – just to go to the side for a bit – including surface dressing, are broadly similar to the UK. In essence, it is Government policy to support local businesses, ______117 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
and construction projects can in the main be delivered by local construction companies. Financial Regulations state that for construction workers, contractors must be accredited with 1075 MACCS through the Isle of Man Employers Federation. Under the current procurement arrangements, most construction work is generally only advertised to members of MACCS. That said, UK contractors could apply to be accredited. There are also work permit restrictions for off-Island contractors that may restrict their ability and willingness to tender for work. Finally, some of the construction industry obviously would 1080 object to a UK company delivering infrastructure work that it is capable of delivering. Having said that, specialist construction works would be exceptions. Benchmarking against the UK has been limited, but historically construction costs have been around 20% higher than the UK average, similar to those in the South East. Regarding Lezayre Road, I am willing to look and come back to see if there is any way we can 1085 compact and construct that in the shortest timeframe possible, but unless there is substantial evidence that a UK contractor could actually do that in a shorter space of time – and in light of all the local economic issues – then I would favour continuing with our policy of using local contractors.
1090 The President: Supplementary question, the Hon. Member for Council, Mr Turner.
Mr Turner: Thank you, Mr President. This is with regard to the issue of how long schemes take as per in the original Question. Can the Minister explain whether the Department still operates the systems of split-shift working? 1095 For example, during my tenure at the DOT, the split-shift working enabled schemes to come down from approximately 30 weeks in duration to about eight or nine weeks. Can the Minister inform the Court whether they still operate these systems which clearly have great benefits in bringing down the duration of the schemes?
1100 A Member: Hear, hear.
The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Thank you. 1105 Much of the work is actually contracted out, but I can check to see if any of the DOI still do that. With regard to anything regarding works, the shorter time you have for works obviously increases the cost, and obviously there are budgets and capital budgets that we have to adhere to. It is always a balancing act. Sometimes projects cannot be contracted as much as thought 1110 because of the logistics of drainage and all of those many variables. Obviously, we will look at Lezayre again to see if we can contract that time and look at the general principles. But just to go back to the main concept which is that we want to support local companies and local contractors.
1115 The President: Hon. Member for Ayre and Michael, Mr Baker.
Mr Baker: Thank you, Mr President. Would the Minister not agree with me that in many cases of these major road replacement schemes the complexity of what is actually being done under the surface of the road actually is a 1120 key driver of both time and cost, and that simple comparisons of cost of tarmacking that a layman may look at and how long it might take are actually potentially misleading? Maybe there is an opportunity to improve the communication of what is actually going on in some of these schemes so that people have a clearer understanding of some of the challenges that the Department is under in managing these fairly sizeable, multi-disciplined projects. ______118 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
1125 Mr Cannan: Hear, hear.
The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Absolutely I would agree with that. I would also agree regarding 1130 communication, because it is underneath, you cannot see it and everything looks the same, but there is a massive difference between a skimming exercise and a dressing exercise. Engineers spend many years getting accreditation, going through Chartered Engineer status. Simply using the soil mechanics, the drainage and all those issues are actually quite complicated matters and could be easily thought of as quite simple. 1135 That is why sometimes it is not a simple case of just laying tarmac over the road because simply after two or three years the road will deconstruct. It is like building a house or any building, it has be done in a considered way and thoughtfully and with every due attention. I do think that there is possibly a communication exercise in terms of saying the difference between the different types of roads and what is actually involved. 1140 The President: The Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Shimmins.
Mr Shimmins: Thank you, Mr President. How does the Minister balance the positive impact of engaging local contractors against the 1145 negative impact on other businesses which may fail during the period, and the local community at large, due to the extended periods of time that it takes?
The President: We are broadening the question out considerably from what is in the Order Paper, but I leave it to you, Minister. 1150 The Minister: I think there is an assumption here – and with any type of policy there is always a chance of review. There is an assumption that an on-lsland contractor is slower than an off- Island contractor, but the basis is that if you employ shift working etc. you add cost. So there is always a balance between what is in the budget for that project and what the impact on the 1155 economy is. Those variables always can be reviewed in light of every project, and we will look at Lezayre again. But make no mistake, sometimes, particularly when you are dealing with something that maybe has not been dealt with for many years – 50 or 60 years or whatever – actually, again, just putting a simple tarmac, as you may see with a new road in other jurisdictions, is simply not 1160 the same thing. The other thing that needs to be considered is that if you have got to keep access, parking and other businesses during the works, it makes the whole issue complicated. It is very difficult to say a one-sized project fits all. Yet again, if there are any ways we can compact … I know generally speaking residents will 1165 favour a shorter period of greater inconvenience than a longer period of intermittent inconvenience – the shorter the better. Obviously that is the principle that the Department will take forward.
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HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE
16. Schools’ catering service – Drop in 2015-16 income
The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Ashford) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:
Why in the year 2015-16 income from catering services in primary education dropped 39.26% while income from catering services in secondary education dropped 49.07%?
The President: Question 16, the Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Ashford. 1170 Mr Ashford: Mr President, I wish to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care why in the year 2015-16 income from catering services in primary education dropped 39.26% while income from catering services in secondary education dropped 49.07%?
The President: I call on the Minister for Health and Social Care, Mrs Beecroft.
The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mrs Beecroft): Thank you, Mr President. 1175 Before I answer the Question, it is important that I explain the changes in income level in primary and secondary education catering. I believe that the numbers in the Hon. Member’s Question were taken from the Government information portal and, upon investigation, it transpired that the detailed sales for the first quarter of 2016 were omitted from that site. The actual full year change in income recorded in the Government’s accounting system between the 1180 years 2014-15 and 2015-16 was a reduction of 4% in primary schools and 6% in secondary schools. A small reduction in revenue of this magnitude can be caused by many interdependent reasons, but it may be a result of a change to standardise the menu offering to include more healthy eating options. 1185 The President: Supplementary, Mr Ashford.
Mr Ashford: Thank you, Mr President. Firstly, can I thank the Minister for clarifying about the position with the figures and would 1190 she agree it is concerning that the Treasury portal – which is an actual public portal where the public can look at the information – was actually showing incorrect figures? In relation to the percentages, although the Minister has just said they are small percentages, would she agree that in previous years the amount coming in has been pretty standard? Would she believe that this has anything to do with the centralisation of services and the quality 1195 actually being offered, so that less children are now taking up school meals?
The President: Minister.
The Minister: Thank you, yes. 1200 I think wherever we are omitting to put information into the public domain or where information in the public domain is incorrect it is always a concern, but I think anybody actually looking at that information, I believe, could see that there were three months that just said zero, which would not add up, and would immediately flag that it was information missing – just really by oversight rather than anything else. 1205 With regard to the percentages, they are small. I understand that some of it could be because we are offering more healthy eating options and some schools are actually not offering some of the highly calorific and sweetened snack items and children are deciding to go to other places to ______120 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
purchase these. That could explain some of it, but it is an area that we are looking at in detail going forward. 1210 The President: The Hon. Member, Ms Edge.
Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. Can the Minister advise what action should be taken on the quality issues which has caused a 1215 decline in the income; and also in the press the £1.1 million deficit which was reported, when the Health Minister previously went back to ask for additional funds from Tynwald; and what she is prepared to do with regard to the perceived management issues within this section?
The President: Minister. 1220 The Minister: I am afraid I do not have any of the detailed responses requested because it is an area that I am not familiar with, but I have asked for a rigorous scrutiny of that area to get the full information so that I can get a feel for actually what is going on and what we should be doing going forward. 1225 The President: The Hon. Member for Ayre and Michael, Mr Baker.
Mr Baker: Thank you, Mr President. When looking at the future of school meals provision and how its financial performance can 1230 be improved, could the Minister commit please to considering the element of locally sourced, locally produced food – both meat and vegetables in particular – that are part of the range? We should be looking to actually support that as much as possible as healthy, good food that actually has a positive effect on the local economy as well.
1235 Two Members: Hear, hear.
The President: Reply, Minister.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 1240 Yes, that is actually one aspect that was discussed at the meeting when we were, in general, talking about the catering services. It definitely will be included in the overall review that we are doing. Thank you.
17. Accident and Emergency waiting times – Plans to reduce
The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Ashford) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care
What plans are in place to reduce Accident and Emergency waiting times?
1245 The President: Question 17, the Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Ashford.
Mr Ashford: Thank you, Mr President. I wish to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care what plans are in place to reduce Accident and Emergency waiting times?
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A Member: Hear, hear. 1250 The President: The Minister for Health and Social Care, Mrs Beecroft, to reply.
The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mrs Beecroft): Thank you, Mr President. The Hon. Member’s Question provides me with an opportunity to detail recent initiatives to 1255 improve waiting times currently experienced by people visiting the Emergency Department at Noble’s Hospital. A significant amount of work has been undertaken to review the flow and treatment of people attending A&E, which has resulted in the employment of a GP from Monday to Friday, 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. to see patients who present at A&E with less acute medical problems; the 1260 redesign of the doctors’ rota to ensure that there are more senior doctors on duty during the day who can make quick decisions; and recruitment of additional nursing staff so that the roll of ‘see and treat’ nurse can be re-established, and minor injuries can be seen and treated rapidly by a highly trained nurse. In addition, the Department has also recently appointed three new consultants in emergency 1265 medicine and a nurse consultant in urgent care to further strengthen the workforce. All four new appointments are very experienced A&E practitioners who will not only bring additional medical cover but a wealth of experience from working around the world. I am confident that these initiatives will result in reductions in the waiting times that people have to wait to be seen and appropriately treated. 1270 The President: Supplementary, Mr Ashford.
Mr Ashford: Thank you, Mr President. I welcome the initiatives that the Minister is bringing forward. Can I ask her does she agree 1275 with me though that one of the things that needs to be tackled is the root cause of waiting times increasing at A&E? Would the Minister agree that a lot of it may well be down to public education and people seeing A&E as their first point of call rather than their GP, in many cases. (A Member: Hear, hear.) Would the Minister agree with that? Because the figures for increase in waiting time in A&E: from 2013 it was two hours, 36 minutes and went to two hours, 48 minutes 1280 in 2014 and three hours, six minutes in 2015. That to me suggests – and does it suggest to the Minister – that it is more to do with how people are utilising the A&E service?
The President: Minister to reply.
1285 The Minister: That is a possibility, Mr President, and it is an area that I have asked to be looked at. I think we have all heard anecdotal evidence, but how much is actual fact? What percentage of that is unclear at the moment? It is an area that we have to look at carefully when we are considering what is the best way to go forward. 1290 The President: Mr Speaker.
The Speaker: Could the Minister give us an idea of what the average waiting times are for A&E and what the highest are – certainly recently – and how the numbers have changed in 1295 terms of the number of people coming through A&E over recent years; whether the volume has risen considerably or whether it is just a matter of people waiting longer?
The President: Minister.
1300 The Minister: Thank you. ______122 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
I do not have that detailed information with me, but I am happy to provide it and circulate it to all Members.
The President: The Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mr Malarkey. 1305 Mr Malarkey: Thank you, Mr President. Would the Minister not agree with me with regard to more people going to A&E because they are not going to their own doctor, maybe if we started charging for wasted time in appointments at doctors’ surgeries it might be more helpful to reduce our A&E – because they 1310 cannot get a doctor’s appointment because there are so many wasted appointments at doctors’ surgeries.
The President: Minister.
1315 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I am not aware of the actual percentage of wasted appointments by people not turning up. I am not sure that actually charging is the right way forward. I would say though that the GP surgeries themselves are under intense pressure and we are short a huge number of GPs throughout the Island. I think once that is addressed and people can 1320 get appointments that they want, we may see a reduction in people going to A&E in the first place. So it is all interconnected and something that has to be treated very carefully.
The President: The Hon. Member for Garff, Mrs Caine.
1325 Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President. On the subject of education of the public would the Minister agree with me that perhaps the medical unit at Ramsey Cottage Hospital is not actually used as much as it could be? I have had occasion to visit both A&E and the Minor Injuries Unit at Ramsey Cottage Hospital. The waiting time at Ramsey Cottage Hospital was 10 minutes. Perhaps if more people knew that 1330 that facility was there between eight in the morning and 8 p.m. then we could relax some of the burden on Noble’s Hospital.
The President: I am not sure what the question was there, but Minister.
1335 The Minister: Yes, I would be very happy to agree with that question. I was actually up at the Ramsey Cottage Hospital just last week and they reiterated that they do not think people actually realise that they have the same sort of system up there, and people could just travel 30 or 40 minutes to their facility and avoid waiting the many hours’ wait in Noble’s Hospital. I think that is something that needs to go out to the wider public that that is a 1340 choice that is available to them.
The President: Supplementary, Mr Speaker.
The Speaker: Thank you, Mr President. 1345 Just in terms of diverting the flow, again from Accident and Emergency through to GPs, would the Minister also do more to make people aware of the Patient Access App that can be downloaded onto their phone to allow them to book GP appointments at their convenience rather than having to always go through the receptionist, which can of course sometimes put people off having to phone and phone and phone again to get through? That is another 1350 opportunity there for public education, perhaps.
The President: Minister. ______123 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
The Minister: Yes, I quite agree, and it is an excellent application to use. You can decide at midnight that you want an appointment and just log on and choose who 1355 you want to see and at what time and what day. The more people who use that, I think the better. Yes, I think another round of publicity highlighting that choice to people will not go amiss. Thank you.
1360 The President: The Hon. Member for Douglas East, Miss Bettison.
Miss Bettison: Thank you. Would the Minister agree that on top of first aid and education within schools and raised awareness of the services pharmacies can provide, we also need to recognise that we need to 1365 move forward with a multi-agency approach to mental health services on the Island, which really does have an impact within our Accident and Emergency services?
The President: It is a very interesting question (Laughter) but it is not within the Order Paper, so I cannot allow it. The Hon. Member for Onchan, Ms Edge. 1370 Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Just to support what the Speaker requested of the Health Minister with regard to the text messaging service that has been implemented by GTS, I had reason to be at Noble’s Hospital and have an appointment and I did not receive a text message reminder. 1375 Whilst you are doing your publicity with regard to appointments for GPs, it might be worthwhile reminding the public that they need to give Noble’s Hospital permission to be able to text you to remind you about your appointments – which is the answer I was given and which would save a lot of time at Noble’s.
1380 The President: Again, we are broadening the subject. Minister.
The Minister: Yes, I am happy to confirm that I think that, whilst we are highlighting what the Department can do to help people and the choices that are available to people in one area, it 1385 would be a good idea to list some of the others at the same time. I can see no problem with that.
The President: The Hon. Member of Council, Mr Coleman.
1390 Mr Coleman: Thank you, Mr President. I had occasion to visit Emergency yesterday morning and I have to say that compared to previous visits I found it exemplary. I was in and out within an hour and a half. That included triage, that included x-ray and then final consultation. I was extremely happy with the service I got. (A Member: Question!) But I would also say that – 1395 The President: May we have a question, sir. (Laughter) I was not saying anything, I wanted him to ask a question.
Mr Coleman: Okay, I will. (Interjection) Would the Minister agree with me that there are so 1400 many facets of the Health Service which have to come together before overall improvement can be achieved? For instance, we have alluded to the facilities in pharmacies. I had my flu injection in a pharmacy –
The President: Hon. Member, (Laughter) resume your seat one moment, please. ______124 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
1405 This is not a general health debate. It is a subject that invites critical questioning, but the question relates to Accident and Emergency waiting times. That is the Question on the Paper, and insofar as your supplementary relates to that, sir, you may resume.
Mr Coleman: Thank you. 1410 The issues I was talking about actually all relate through to A&E. If we have routing from the pharmacist to GPs who can then go to A&E, it is a pathway in this, and a lot of blocks need to be in place for that pathway to A&E to work quickly and efficiently. From my own experience, I think it worked very well. Thank you. (Laughter) 1415 The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I am delighted to hear that it worked for the Hon. Member, Mr Coleman, in this instance, and 1420 there are many other people who have similar stories. (Interjection) Yes, I agree with him and with Miss Bettison that it is a joined-up approach that is required across the whole of the service – and outside of the service, into education and all sorts of other areas as well, if we are to make real improvements. Thank you. 1425 The President: May we move on?
Several Members: Yes. Hear, hear.
INFRASTRUCTURE
19. Pavement maintenance – Budgets and expenditure
The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Ashford) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:
What the budgeted amount for pavement maintenance and the total amount spent on such maintenance was in the years 2013-14, 2014-15 and 2015-16?
The President: Question 19. Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Ashford. 1430 Mr Ashford: Mr President, I wish to ask the Minister for infrastructure, what the budgeted amount for pavement maintenance and the total amount spent on such maintenance was in the years 2013-14, 2014-15 and 2015-16?
1435 The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Harmer): Thank you, Mr President. In the …
The President: Minister to reply. (Laughter and interjections) When you are ready, sir!
The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Harmer): In the 2013-14 and 2014-15 years, the budget 1440 of £100,000 was fully spent. The budget was increased by a further £100,000 in 2015-16, but financial pressures led to the spend being curtailed at £110,000 giving the proportion spent of 52%.
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The budget has been increased to £250,000 for the current financial year and it is my intention that it is fully spent, as my belief is it is important to prioritise maintenance as it is 1445 maintenance of our assets that saves money in the long term. The budget provided by the Court for the maintenance and repair of our national infrastructure assets should be, in my view, fully spent, otherwise we are letting down all those who depend on our infrastructure for their economic and social wellbeing.
1450 The President: Supplementary, Mr Ashford.
Mr Ashford: Thank you, Mr President. Can I ask, does the budget in relation to pavements sit separately from that in relation to actual road expenditure? It did several years ago, but it does not seem to be separate in the Pink 1455 Book any more.
The President: Reply, sir.
The Minister: I will have to come back to the specifics of that, to be honest, but there is 1460 £250,000 to be spent on maintenance.
The President: Supplementary, Mr Speaker.
The Speaker: Can I ask the Minister how the money on pavements is prioritised? We have 1465 recently seen a long stretch through no man’s land in Santon while the pavements around Port Erin shops have crumbled, so I am wondering how the money is prioritised in terms of the pavement spending?
The President: Minister. 1470 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. It is something we need to look at. My own personal view is that maintenance spending needs to be where it is most needed and most used, but obviously we need to look at current projects to see where that goes. 1475 But that is certainly my intention.
The President: Mr Ashford, supplementary.
Mr Ashford: Thank you, Mr President. 1480 Several years ago in this Hon. Court, it was mentioned – when the Hon. Member of Council, Mr Cretney was Minister – there was a £120-million backlog in road maintenance. Can the Minister confirm, do we have a value for the backlog in pavement maintenance?
The President: Minister. 1485 The Minister: No, I would not be able to give that figure. Obviously, you would need to look at the whole network again, but it is something – just to reassure – my feeling, my emphasis is that we need to move towards maintenance, and rather than … If we do that, then we will avoid the need to rip up and start again. 1490 The Speaker: You need to curb your enthusiasm.
The President: Further supplementary, Mr Ashford.
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1495 Mr Ashford: Thank you, Mr President. Final one from me. Would the Minister then undertake, since they seem to be able to get a backlog figure for road maintenance, to try and see if the Department can produce a backlog figure for pavement maintenance and circulate it to all Members?
1500 The President: Minister.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. It is something we will certainly look at – we will certainly look at what the backlog is, but obviously, there is only an annual budget in any event. I think the figure for roads was that, even 1505 if we went through every road – I cannot remember the figure off the top of my head – it was something in the hundreds of years, rather than the years, so it is not going to be possible to do maintenance all the time. We have to prioritise. So it will be very much priority based. Even if we got a figure for the whole Island, that may be a little bit of an academic exercise. 1510 I think perhaps what is more important is to actually look at what we do need to prioritise and what we do need to do now. But my view, as I said before, is that asset management should be a key part of our strategy going forward.
20. Ballanard Road – Plans for repair and reinstatement
The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Ashford) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:
What plans are in place for future repair and reinstatement works on Ballanard Road?
The President: We turn to Question 20. Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Ashford.
1515 Mr Ashford: Thank you, Mr President. I wish to ask the Minister for Infrastructure, what plans are in place for future repair and reinstatement works on Ballanard Road?
The President: I call on the Minister for Infrastructure, Mr Harmer. 1520 The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Harmer): Thank you, Mr President. Footway resurfacing works are planned on Ballanard Road between Tromode Park and Johnny Watterson’s Lane and between the Abbey Woods entrance and Castleward Green. Subject to funding, this work will commence in the 2017-18 financial year. 1525 No other major work is currently planned for Ballanard Road over the next 10 years.
The President: Mr Ashford, supplementary.
Mr Ashford: Just for clarification, Mr President, do those works include the pavements? 1530 The President: Minister.
The Minister: That is my understanding: footway resurfacing works are planned.
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21. Horse trams – Performance in 2016; plans for 2017
The Hon. Member for Garff (Mrs Caine) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:
If he will make a statement on the passenger numbers and financial performance of the horse trams during the 2016 season; and whether they will be operated in 2017? 1535 The President: Question 21, Hon. Member for Garff, Mrs Caine.
Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Infrastructure, if he will make a statement on the 1540 passenger numbers and financial performance of the horse trams during the 2016 season; and confirm whether they will be operated in 2017?
The President: Minister for Infrastructure to reply.
1545 The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Harmer): Thank you, Mr President. I thank the Hon. Member for her Question. The Douglas Bay Horse Tramway has enjoyed a very successful year, with significant increases in the total number of passengers carried and the overall revenue generated. As Hon. Members are aware, the Department of Infrastructure, with support from Culture 1550 Vannin and Manx National Heritage, stepped in to ensure the continuation of the trams this year, following the decision by Douglas Borough Council to end the service. Measures were put in place to reduce the operating costs and to maximise passenger usage and income through the Department’s heritage railways marketing expertise. As a result of these efforts, the total number of passengers carried in 2016 increased to 69,542 from 48,722 1555 the previous year. The season was extended from mid-September until the end of October, but in practice operated for only 13 more days than in 2015. The horse trams operated daily during the peak summer period and on a limited basis at other times, in line with the Isle of Man’s other heritage railways. 1560 The revenue taken on the horse trams has also increased from £57,915, to £83,557 this year. The budget for the horse tramway anticipated a loss of around £100,000 and a number of bodies made offers to contribute towards that total. However, as a result of the 44% increase in revenue, the net deficit is expected to now not exceed £60,000. I would like to take this opportunity to place on record my thanks for the support of the 1565 horse tram staff and those in the heritage railway operation, who pulled together to achieve this impressive turnaround. We should also recognise the value of our heritage railways to the wider Manx economy. An independent report in 2012 estimated the contribution to be £11 million, and we have invested to grow the sector since then. 1570 In response to the second part of the Question, Tynwald supported the Department’s proposal to operate the Douglas Bay horse trams in 2017 and 2018 while discussions continue about the long-term viability of the service. My aim is to secure the long-term future for the horse trams.
1575 The President: Supplementary question, Mrs Caine.
Mrs Caine: Thank you. I am delighted to hear and thank the Minister very much for that information.
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Regarding the operation next year, Douglas Borough Council has put the stables on the 1580 market. Does he understand that will have any impact on the operation next season?
The President: Reply, sir.
The Minister: Thank you. 1585 No, it is not essential to the operation next year.
The President: Supplementary, Mr Ashford.
Mr Ashford: Thank you, Mr President. 1590 Whilst it is a very good-news story in relation to the horse trams, would the Minister accept that, in fact, one of the reasons the deficit has actually gone down is because Douglas Borough Council uses an apportionment basis for costs? Can he confirm whether or not all the actual costs of the horse trams are actually being charged to that service, because in relation to marketing and maintenance, certainly some of the meetings I was involved with suggested they 1595 were going to be done in different budgets?
The President: Minister.
The Minister: My understanding is that the figures are accurate; that the deficit is still a loss 1600 of £60,000. If it is not the case, then I certainly will come back to you.
The President: No further questions. Hon. Members, that brings us to the end of Questions for Oral Answer. I know Members will be anxious to get the most benefit out of the opportunity of Question 1605 Time and will wish to reflect on the fact that Question Time is not an opportunity for debate, but actually tabling of Questions which should not be of excessive length. So Members, please reflect upon that. We have seven Questions for Written Answer and replies will be distributed in the normal way. 1610
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Questions for Written Answer
CHIEF MINISTER
22. Collective responsibility – Differences between current and previous Governments
The Hon. Member of the Council, Mr Cretney, to ask the Chief Minister:
If he will set out the differences in collective responsibility between his and previous Governments?
The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): As Hon Members will recall, I circulated the updated rules on collective responsibility on 31st October 2016. Previously the rules on collective responsibility stated that:
Once Council’s policy on any particular matter is decided, each Minister is expected to support it and share responsibility for it.
The updated rules state that:
Ministers will be bound by collective responsibility on all matters included within the Statement of Intent of its Policies and Priorities, the Programme for Government and the annual Budget.
1615 They also state that collective responsibility applies to:
… policy decisions on matters of national importance which may be taken from time to time, and which in the normal course of events, would be expected to feature within the Programme for Government or the Budget.
Otherwise, the rules are broadly the same and indicate that, where collective responsibility applies, a number of features continue to apply (which are covered in paragraph 1.31) and the exceptions to the application of collective responsibility remain the same (which are described in paragraph 1.34).
TREASURY
23. Tax cap electors – Numbers of employees
The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Ashford) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:
How many of the 30 tax cap electors he mentioned in the House of Keys on 25th October 2016 employ the following numbers of people: (a) 1 to 10 (b) 11 to 25 (c) 26 to 50 (d) more than 50?
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1620 The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): I am concerned that given the small number of tax cap electors involved that by supplying any further details it may be possible for assumptions to be made as to the possible recognition of certain individual taxpayers. Information about the tax affairs of any specific individual is held in confidence by the Assessor of Income Tax in accordance with the provisions of section 106 of the Income Tax Act 1625 1970.
24. Tax cap electors – Details prior to introduction of cap
The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Ashford) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:
How many of the 30 tax cap electors he mentioned in the House of Keys on 25th October 2016 were resident in the Island prior to the introduction of the tax cap; and how many of the companies referred to were in existence prior to the introduction of the tax cap?
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): I would refer the Hon. Member to my other response on today’s Question Paper in respect of tax cap electors. I would add that I do not hold any information about the tax affairs of any specific individual as such information is, quite rightly, held in confidence by the Assessor of Income Tax in 1630 accordance with the provisions of section 106 of the Income Tax Act 1970. Finally, I would like to take this opportunity to highlight that in order to analyse data and prepare the information requested would require the allocation of scarce resources and considerable time and effort by officers of the Income Tax Division.
25. Government subcontracting – Income Tax raised since 2011
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:
How much Income Tax has been raised for each financial year since 2011 in respect of labour for subcontracting work by each Department by (a) overseas contractors working in the Isle of Man and (b) Isle of Man contractors who do not hold a tax exemption certificate?
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): The Isle of Man Construction Industry Scheme 1635 applies to individuals or businesses working in the construction industry and is operated by contractors in a similar manner to the Income Tax Instalment Payments (ITIP) system operated by employers. The Scheme ensures that any payments made by a contractor to a subcontractor in respect of construction activities are properly recorded and reported, that subcontractor tax exemption 1640 certificates are checked where appropriate, and that any Income Tax due in respect of the payments is correctly deducted and then paid to the Assessor of Income Tax on a timely basis in accordance with the legislation. A person may be a contractor if they carry on a business which includes construction operations. 1645 The Isle of Man Government does not carry on a business which includes construction operations and therefore Treasury or any other Government Department does not deduct Income Tax under the Isle of Man Construction Industry Scheme. ______131 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
Any contractors who carry on a business which includes construction operations who undertake work for Isle of Man Government are required to operate the full requirements of the 1650 Scheme. The Income Tax Division has published a sub-contractors guidance note – GN44 which is available at: https://www.gov.im/media/363754/gn44.pdf The total amount of revenue receipts received from all contractors under the Scheme is contained in the Detailed Government Accounts published each year.
26. Income Tax deducted at source – Overseas and Isle of Man contractors
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:
Whether Treasury deducts Income Tax at source for overseas contractors and Isle of Man contractors who do not hold the right exemption certificates?
1655 The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): I would refer the Hon. Member to my detailed response on today’s Question Paper in respect of the amount of Income Tax that has been raised for each financial year since 2011 in respect of labour for sub-contracting work by each Department. In light of this, I would reiterate that Treasury or any other Government Department does not 1660 deduct Income Tax under the Isle of Man Construction Industry Scheme.
HM ACTING ATTORNEY GENERAL
27. Automatic Number Plate Recognition – Legal use by public bodies
The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Ashford) to ask HM Acting Attorney General:
In relation to Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) software: (a) which public bodies can legally use ANPR and for what purposes; (b) what legislation enables such use by those public bodies; and (c) whether footage obtained via ANPR, specifically in the case of cars exiting a public car park without paying, is admissible as evidence and whether there are any limitations on the admissibility of such evidence?
HM Acting Attorney General: (a) which public bodies can legally use ANPR and for what purposes? I understand that the ANPR System was developed by the Department of Infrastructure (‘the Department’) to provide an automated mechanism for cross checking details of vehicles held upon its register1 1665 The Licensing and Registration of Vehicles Regulations 2015 (‘the Regulations’) requires the Department to supply particulars contained in the register of vehicles to the following persons upon request:
(a) an officer of the court, Department, Government office, local authority or statutory board being a request which relates to:
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i. the investigation or prosecution of any offence, ii. the hearing of any civil or criminal case iii. the collection of any duties, fees, fines or taxes (b) by or on behalf of the Chief Constable (c) by any person who: i. acting in his official capacity, holds office in the United Kingdom, the Channel Islands or the Republic of Ireland, and ii. is responsible for licensing or registering vehicles or otherwise regulating their use; or (d) by any person appearing to the Department to have reasonable cause for making the application.2
The release of information from the register by means of the ANPR System would not require 1670 separate authority as it merely automates part of what would otherwise be a laborious human process of checking data. In all instances of a release of such data (whether this be by means of the ANPR System or otherwise), the Department would need to be satisfied that the person applying for the information requires this information for the purposes defined in the Regulations. 1675 In the case of persons engaged primarily in law enforcement functions, it is possible that the Department would be satisfied that the proposed use of the information falls within the requirements of the Regulations (i.e. it is to be used for the purposes of investigation or prosecution of a criminal offence). This could include both the police and traffic wardens appointed by the Department who may exercise certain functions of constables. It is also the 1680 case that the Highways (Amendment) Act 2016 includes the following provision which relate specifically to ANPR as follows:
(1) The Department or the Chief Constable may install and maintain on, in, over or near a highway structures, apparatus and equipment, including automatic number-plate recognition equipment and systems, for the detection and prevention of traffic and other offences. (2) No act of the Department or of the Chief Constable, or of their servants or agents, carried out in good faith under subsection (1) is a contravention of the Town and Country Planning Act 1999...3
The Highways (Amendment) Act 2016 currently awaits an Appointed Day Order but will extend rights to the police to the extent stated. The Department would be able to provide details as to how they implement the application 1685 of the Regulations in practice most particularly in relation to allowing access to their ANPR System.
(b) what legislation enables such use by those public bodies? As mentioned, the Regulations require the Department to release information from the Register in the circumstances set out above. 1690 The Regulations are made under sections 6(5), 10(4), 13 and 18(1) and (2) of, and paragraph 6 of Part I of Schedule 1 to, the Licensing and Registration of Vehicles Act 1985. The Highways (Amendment) Act 2016 will extend the right to install and use ANPR to the Chief Constable upon the terms set out from the date set out in the relevant Appointed Day Order once this is made. 1695 (c) whether footage obtained via ANPR, specifically in the case of cars exiting a public car park without paying, is admissible as evidence and whether there are any limitations on the admissibility of such evidence? For both criminal and civil proceedings it would be a matter for the courts to be satisfied to 1700 the relevant standard of the ANPR system was satisfactory as a means of proving that the resulting photograph or similar was a correct representation of what it claimed to prove. This would include being assured that the system was properly functioning and calibrated (in the same way as speed detection equipment, breathalyser etc. are required to be calibrated and working correctly) and that the chain of evidence from receipt had been adequately maintained.
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1 The Department of Infrastructure is required to maintain a register under the provisions of regulation 4 of the Licensing and Registration of Vehicles Regulations 2015. 2 Regulation 22 of the Licensing of Vehicles Regulations 2015 3 Section 9 of the Highways (Amendment) 2016
HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE
28. Government Office canteen service – Financial details 2015-16
The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Ashford) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:
What the total cost of running the Government Office canteen service was in 2015-16; what its total income was in 2015-16; and whether the reported overspend of £105,000 in 2015-16 was caused by over budgeting of expected income rather than representing an actual loss on the service?
1705 The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mrs Beecroft): The actual and budgeted operating costs and income of the Government Office canteen service in 2015-16, as recorded in Axapta, are shown below:
2015-16 2015-16 Actual Budget £’000 £’000 Income (103) (222) Operating Costs 109 123 Net Contribution (Profit)/Loss 6 (99)
The actual financial performance in 2015-16 was a loss of £6,000, with the reported overspend of £105,000 being the variance against budget target. The service has never 1710 previously achieved income levels sufficient to meet the target.
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Order of the Day
3. Social Affairs Policy Review Committee Second Report for the Session 2015-2016 – Progress with Inquiries – Statement by the Minister for Education and Children
The President: We turn to Item 3 on our Order Paper, the Social Affairs Policy Review Committee Second Report: Progress with Enquiries and I call the Minister for Education and Children to make a Statement. Mr Cregeen.
1715 The Minister for Education and Children (Mr Cregeen): Thank you, Mr President. Following the General Election and change of administration, new Ministers have been appointed to Government Departments. It has taken time for them to understand what has previously been brought forward and what the proposals and plans are in place and to understand the recommendations coming forward in response to the Social Affairs Policy 1720 Review Committee Third Report for the Session 2015-16 for Children and Families. There have been discussions in the Council of Ministers and while it was hoped to bring the response to this sitting of Tynwald, it was felt that a delay would allow all Ministers to more fully understand their Departments’ responses across the five recommendations coming forward from Economic Affairs, the Department of Health and Social Services, the Department of 1725 Education and Children. There is also response from the Department of Home Affairs and the Department of Infrastructure around the issue of identification and ports. Thank you, Mr President.
4. Social Affairs Policy Review Committee Third Report for the Session 2015-2016 – Children and Families Social Services – Statement by the Minister for Health and Social Care
The President: We turn to Item 4, the Social Affairs Policy Review Committee Third Report, and I call the Minister for Health and Social Care, Mrs Beecroft, to make a Statement. 1730 The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mrs Beecroft): Thank you, Mr President. Further to the Chief Minister’s Statement made to this Hon. Court in October, I rise to apologise for the fact that the Government response to the Social Affairs Policy Committee Third Report for the 2016 session of Tynwald has been delayed yet further. 1735 Unfortunately, this is because I fell ill within the first few days of my tenure as Minister and so was unable to give this important subject my full attention. I am glad to say, I am fully fit now and it is intended that the Council of Ministers’ response will be laid before the December sitting of this Hon. Court. I apologise to Hon. Members for this further delay, but I am sure my colleagues would wish 1740 me to give this matter the attention that it warrants. Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Thank you, Hon. Member.
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5. Programme for Government – Framework document and timetable – Debate commenced
The Chief Minister to move:
That Tynwald supports: (1) The guiding principles and high level objectives of the Council of Ministers as set out in the document ‘Framework for a Programme for Government’ [GD No 2016/0076]; (2) That the Council of Ministers returns to Tynwald in January 2017 with its Programme for Government; (3) That the Council of Ministers provides an update on the Programme for Government at the October 2017 sitting of Tynwald, and each October thereafter, including an opportunity for debate on the matter.
1745 The President: We turn to Item 5, Programme for Government and I call on the Chief Minister to move, the Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Quayle.
The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): Thank you, Mr President. In moving the motion in my name, I am asking Tynwald to debate, and hopefully support, the 1750 Council of Ministers’ initial high-level strategic objectives and guiding principles, as contained in the Report in front of you. The guiding principles and strategic objectives set out the initial direction for Government and will allow us to build the rest of our Programme based on these core elements. Council will return to this Hon. Court in January with a more detailed Programme, including circa 1755 20 priorities which we hope to address by 2020. Hon. Members will also note that the document contains a number of outcomes linked to our guiding principles. We are not asking Members to agree the outcomes during this session. Hon. Members will also note that we intend to return each October to report on progress and revisit our priorities, thus ensuring that our plan is still valid. 1760 Mr President, our Programme for Government is laid on strong foundations. The bedrock on which we build a new future for our Island is solid. Last quarter, over 450 new jobs were created, compared to 371 for the same quarter last year. At the end of October, our external reserves stood at just under £1.5 billion. Two weeks ago, UNESCO told the world what we in the Isle of Man already know. They 1765 recognised that our unique environment, heritage and culture combine to create an exceptional place to live and work. As a result, our Island was designated with Biosphere reserve status. If we are to keep this place we call home special, we must act now, and we must act with purpose. In setting our priorities, the Council of Ministers is looking to the future. The world around us is changing at a speed which is unprecedented. Developments in technology, in global politics, 1770 and in society, are happening at a pace that few of us had anticipated. In the last year we have seen Brexit, the election of Donald Trump and the ever-increasing level of external scrutiny. We must be ready to respond to these changes and seize the opportunities that they bring. Fundamental to all that we do is sustaining an economy which brings opportunity for 1775 everyone. We want innovation and enterprise to thrive, bringing jobs and wealth for the people of this Island. We have benefited from many years of economic growth, but we must continue to evolve. The Council of Ministers believes it is our role to set the environment in which new and existing sectors can flourish. We owe it to the young people of this Island to make sure we 1780 succeed.
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Mr President, whilst I know that many Members of this Hon. Court are new in post, if you were to look at the Job Centre website, you would see there are over 800 jobs advertised. Business people here are telling us that finding candidates with the right skills is becoming a constant challenge. There are vacancies in hospitality and catering, in technology and in 1785 manufacturing. In fact, almost every sector across the Island has vacancies. We have listened to these concerns, and we will act to ensure we are not restricting growth. In the first part of a longer term plan to grow the working population, my colleague, the Minister for Economic Development, will return as a priority with proposals to expand the number of exemptions to the current work permit system. This system should protect Manx workers, but it 1790 should not hinder the ability of growing businesses to recruit a skilled workforce where there are clear shortages. This is not an optional step if we are to remain competitive now and in the future. However, remaining competitive is not just about employment though. I know that there are concerns about some of the costs of running a business here and the costs of living here. We 1795 want to give confidence to people that their costs will not rise. That is why Council has agreed with the Manx Utilities Authority that there will be no further increases in the sewerage rate for this year, except an inflationary increase which I expect to be brought to Tynwald next month. I would like to work together with the Chairman and Board of the MUA to consider how we can take a similar approach for water and electricity costs. 1800 Linked to this will be the review of the rating system which needs to be largely completed by the end of next year. Business and the general public will then have more certainty about their future costs. The cost of high-speed internet access for business has also been raised as a concern by many in industry. This concern has been echoed in a recent report examining our telecoms 1805 infrastructure. The report makes a number of recommendations to improve the provision of our telecoms infrastructure. I have asked the National Strategy Group to take these recommendations forward. This will include a more active role for the Communications Commission in monitoring the pricing and quality of our telecoms provision. There are areas though where we must create change if we are to create the environment for 1810 our Island to flourish. During our first workshop with Tynwald Members, one of the themes that emerged as a priority from almost everyone in attendance was reform of the planning system. Everyone believes that our planning system should support growth, but we are also clear that this should not be at any cost. It is not an easy balance, but the consensus is that the system we have at present is not responsive enough. 1815 The Minister for Policy and Reform will lead the reform of the planning system. I have been clear that this will be a priority for this administration, and I want to start reform immediately and aim to achieve substantial progress within the next 18 months. Another policy priority for Council must be off-Island transport and freight. One of the realities of living on an island is that we are dependent on our transport links. Without safe, 1820 reliable and cost-effective transport, our society and economy will not thrive. Like planning, this is a difficult balancing act to achieve. Our size and scale means we will never be as attractive to larger providers, so we must ensure we have a bespoke solution that meets our needs, and this will inevitably result in compromise. Above all, though, we need certainty. The Minister for Infrastructure will bring a strategic sea services policy to this Court for 1825 consideration by February. I must stress to Members that doing nothing is not an option. Sea and air services are our lifeline and we must act to ensure we are best served for the future. We are also planning for the future in other areas. On 14th April this year, the European Union approved the new General Data Protection Regulations (GDPR). Although there is uncertainty about our future relationship with Europe, the EU is, and will continue to be, a key 1830 market for us. Therefore, we must ensure that we continue to operate to the standards and practices expected of us in this area. We are committed to retaining our existing adequacy
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rulings in relation to data protection. We will take whatever steps are necessary in the future to ensure adequacy in relation to the GDPR. Mr President, last year we spent almost £100 million on education for the people of the Isle 1835 of Man. We should be proud of what our young people have achieved. It may be a cliché, but it seems we punch above our weight in the world – so many of our young people go on to do amazing things. The Duchess of Cambridge wears clothes designed by a Manx couple. The genome data of the Manx cat has been decoded by a young scientist from the Isle of Man, and one of the top West End stars is proud to call the Island home. We have gold medallists and 1840 athletes at the top of their sport who wear the Manx flag with pride. Our education system has served us well, but it must continue to evolve. We can choose to react to the world around us, or we can set a course for the future which others will follow. We need learning that is relevant, and young people who are ready to join the workforce. We are not constrained by the politics of other governments in the way our education system 1845 works, and the Minister for Education will be bringing forward a new strategy for lifelong learning, which will ensure our people are able to get the skills they need, when they need them, ready for the workplace of the future. Mr President, the Council of Ministers has been clear that we want a society that is inclusive and caring. We want the Island to be a place where everyone has the opportunity to succeed. It 1850 is also important, though, to make sure that we have a support structure in place to help people when they need it most. I do not believe the current benefits system works. It is not flexible enough to respond to the needs of individuals; nor does it join up well with other support available across Government. I want to see a benefits system that provides a truly tailored package of care for those who need 1855 it most. I must state, though, that this will not be an expansion of cost, but a better use of existing resources. Although reform of the benefits system is progressing, I am not convinced it is happening quickly enough, so today I am tasking the Social Policy and Children’s Committee and the Treasury, co-ordinated by the Minister for Policy and Reform, to intensify the focus of the 1860 current benefits reform programme, completing the policy work on needs and means testing in the first year of this administration. We need a policy that is flexible enough to provide more individual support for people when they need it, which focuses on helping more people back into work. There is a further area of Government policy which needs an urgent overhaul. Pre-school 1865 provision: the current policy is not working; there is inconsistent provision across the Island. I want to ensure that all our children are receiving the best start in life. That is why the Minister for Education and Children will work together with the Treasury to find the best way to address this issue. We want a clear plan of action to make sure our most valuable asset – our children – are supported to grow and thrive. 1870 One of our strategic objectives is to be financially responsible. A fundamental part of this is making sure our services are provided in the most effective and value-for-money way. The Digital Strategy, approved by this Court in June 2015, will continue. The first major pieces of work in Health and Policing are now well underway. These projects will not only make the services better for the people using them, but they, along with other programmes in the 1875 strategy, will deliver £7 million of cash savings by 2021, and a further £21 million of non- cashable efficiency savings. We have a further five programmes identified which are expected to deliver an additional £5 million of cash savings. I want to be clear to Departments, boards and offices too: if we are able to deliver our services more effectively outside of Government, then we should not shy away from making the 1880 decision because of political ideology. If it is the right thing to do, and we can maintain service levels while offering a better deal to the taxpayer, then we should get on and do it. The Treasury will work with the Cabinet Office to support Departments in exploring the best way to deliver their services. ______138 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
Linked to this is local government reform. This is something which has been talked about 1885 often. It will not be easy, but it seems there is now a desire in Tynwald to really make this happen. When looking at national and local services, the priority has to be what is best for the public. Members of the public are the customers of these services and they also pay for them through their taxes and rates. They want us to make the best possible use of public funds and to avoid waste. 1890 Because the people are both the owners and customers of Government, we must in turn be open and accountable to the people. In this respect, I am pleased to confirm the agreement of the Council of Ministers that the Freedom of Information Act should be extended across all Departments of Government from January next year. We also hope to bring a proposal for establishing a Tynwald Commissioner for Administration in the New Year. 1895 There are still those out there who would preserve the status quo, who resist change because of vested interests and a fear of the future. To you, I would say join us in making change happen or you will be left behind. There is a new sense of purpose in this Hon. Court, and we will succeed where others have not. Our five-year Strategy for Health and Social Care, approved by Tynwald during my time as 1900 Health Minister, is well underway. Its aims are still valid. We want people to be healthier and able to access care in their own communities, but this cannot come at any cost. We need to ensure our health and care services are provided in the most value-for-money and effective way possible. This is a challenging task, but I am confident that the Minister for Health and Social Care will rise to that challenge. It is in all our interests. 1905 In my manifesto for Chief Minister, I promised to work to make the Public Service Pension Scheme sustainable. To those who think this is a simple or quick fix, you are mistaken. It is not. But that does not mean we cannot solve the problem, just that it will take time, effort and determination. The PSPA, whose Vice-Chair is my colleague, the Minister for Policy and Reform, will bring the proposed detailed scheme-changes proposals, built around the new cost envelope, 1910 to Tynwald in February. Further proposals for managing the legacy funding issue in the longer term will follow. I have been clear that we will not fudge this issue or kick the can down the road. We owe it to future generations to leave them with sustainable and affordable policies. Mr President, I am grateful to Tynwald Members who have contributed openly and honestly 1915 to our policy development to date. I hope we are able to continue this spirit of collaboration and partnership, because I believe we all share common goals for our Island. I am proud of my Manx heritage and roots, but there is also a sense of identity which is not defined by how far back you can trace your ancestors. It is about a sense of common purpose which is shared by us all. I have seen it in farmers whose families have worked the land since the 1920 time of the Vikings; but I have also seen it in the people who have come here and who have embraced this Island. They have become a part of the community – our community. They will tell you that they feel the same sense of belonging, that sense of place; that same sense of coming home as the lights of Douglas Bay appear on the horizon from the deck of the Ben my Chree. 1925 Our home is an inclusive, tolerant and welcoming place that means different things to all of us. We cannot preserve it in time, though. We must continue to move forward together, to create a future in which all of us want to live on our cherished Island. That is why the Council of Ministers ask this Hon. Court to not only approve our Framework for developing the Programme for Government, but to actively take part in making it happen. Because it is only by working 1930 together that we can meet our promise of ‘Our Island: a special place to live and work’. Mr President, I beg to move.
A Member: Hear, hear.
1935 The President: Hon. Member, Mr Thomas. ______139 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
The Minister for Policy and Reform (Mr Thomas): Thank you, Mr President. I beg to second and reserve my remarks.
The President: I call Mr Speaker. 1940 The Speaker: Thank you, Mr President. I genuinely appreciate that the Council of Ministers are trying something new here in the report, setting out the broad brushstrokes before setting out the detail and allocation of spending that is yet to come. For those outside of this Court who have not seen it, it is a brief 1945 document of only four substantive pages and one of those pages is dedicated to the process of arriving at it. If you would pardon the analogy, Mr President, the document is something of a Christmas tree: it is a useful device to hang all sorts of shiny policy baubles from. I do like the outcome focus of the document. I welcome the renewed commitment to the Digital Strategy as a way of making Government more responsive to the way people interact 1950 with Government and access services. In that respect, it is clear to see that in a number of areas there will be a welcome change of direction and that Tynwald Members’ views have been taken on board. But the document does also raise some interesting questions, such as what horizon scanning is happening within Government? How will we measure the outcomes that are laid out in the 1955 report? What are the inequalities in our Island society that are referred to, and is there a common understanding of the problems? What constitutes ‘reasonable’ when it comes to taxes and charges? But I am sure there will be more to come in January on all of those questions. The document is a positive one, which is great, and does reflect the mood that the Chief Minister referred to in his opening statement, but having given the Christmas tree analogy, I 1960 suppose I do need to mention Scrooge as well. What I do not see in the report are the devices, the mechanisms or the principles that will drive Government’s finances back into balance. There are two particularly which may be the hook to hang some difficult decisions on, and one of those is, ‘We have principled and reasonable taxes and charges’ and it is ‘Appropriate and equitable pensions for all’ – two lines in there. Like other Hon. Members, I appreciate that we 1965 will need to wait until January or February before we find out really what the guiding principles are going to be in these areas and it may be that we need to discuss that further as an Hon. Court, but at the moment that gap in public finances is perhaps the biggest hole in this document. I appreciate that the deficit of £187 million shown in the accounts laid before this Court 1970 today tell only part of the story. I am very conscious that £120 million of that is related to investment performance and not a realised loss. So I had some sympathy with the Treasury Minister having to sign these off just days after taking office. It must, however, be telling to the Treasury Minister that an additional £94 million over the cash figure has had to be included in the overall deficit to reflect pension costs. I cannot yet see those principles that will guide 1975 Council of Ministers in bridging this gap and getting us off on an even keel. But is this not a report about doom and gloom; this is a report to set out a direction and I do welcome that. So, with those caveats, I will support the Government in building their Christmas tree, and I wish them lots of fun over the Christmas period as they decorate and adorn it ready for January Tynwald. 1980 The President: The Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Callister.
Mr Callister: Thank you, Mr President. I also will be supporting the motion as tabled today. 1985 I certainly believe the Isle of Man is a very special place to live and work, and as a society and as a community we need to be even more inclusive, tolerant and sustainable in the future.
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As a political Member for the Department of Economic Development, I fully support the principle that the Island’s economic success and growth should remain this Government’s overarching priority over the next 15 years. However, this Government and its Departments 1990 must learn from previous mistakes and ensure that the Island remains strong, competitive, compliant, but also flexible enough to adapt and change as and when new circumstances and new markets emerge. The Island needs a Programme for Government that rebuilds confidence and trust with businesses, visitors and the people of this Island, in order to send a clear message that the Isle of 1995 Man is a place where people want to live, work, invest and visit in the coming months and years, and that the Isle of Man is truly the destination of choice for businesses and visitors in the future. Mr President, I also want to see a Government programme that does not just provide a good start in life for our children, but actually puts in place the best possible education programme, 2000 starting with our pre-schools, and thereafter ensuring that every single child on this Island can fulfil their true potential in life. We need an education programme that also gives people a second chance to fulfil their potential in life through vocational training or distance learning courses at a later stage of their life or career. 2005 I want to see Education working in partnership with other Government Departments and local businesses in order to ensure that tomorrow’s workforce has the knowledge, skills and training that will support any potential new business opportunities on the horizon, along with considering how to increase the working population, which is so vital to the Island’s success over the next 15 years, but without damaging the overall quality of life we all currently enjoy. 2010 It is important that the Government’s programme also continues to support the many businesses already well-established and contributing to this Island’s economy. We must ensure that today’s workforce also has the skills and training to secure better jobs and opportunities for themselves in the future. I want to see a Programme for Government that removes some of the red tape, rules and 2015 regulations that are so anti-business at the moment in order to truly deliver a Manx economy that is even more diverse in the future. We need a planning system that is fair, transparent and supports business growth in a sustainable manner, wherever possible in the future. We need a tax and work permit system that supports business growth but also, at the same 2020 time, protects other vital sectors not requiring additional help or support at the moment, along with protecting the Manx workforce as a priority. Any Government and local government reform is never going to be easy, but I fully support this Government ensuring that future services are delivered in the right place, at the right cost, and by those who are best qualified to deliver those services in the future. 2025 I would also support any Government programme that rebuilds a level of trust, confidence and reliability in our air and sea links, which again are so vital to the Island’s success over the next 10 to 20 years. I hope the Government’s programme will include any future user agreement and will secure a clear reduction in passenger and freight costs, which could potentially secure new business 2030 opportunities, support Shop Local and boost our tourism sector in the future. Further, Mr President, as political Member with the Department of Health and Social Care, I want to see a Programme for Government which supports the Department as it works towards delivering a cost-effective, sustainable and first-class health service on the Isle of Man; a Government programme that encourages and supports people back to work wherever possible, 2035 but also provides the right level of care, training and financial support for those individuals in need of genuine help.
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We also need to ensure that our frontline emergency services have the resources, training, numbers and legislation in order to ensure that the Isle of Man remains a safe place to work and to bring up children, in a community that respects the law and each other. 2040 We need a Programme for Government that supports our community and works in partnership with the third sector, in order to ensure that the Government genuinely tries to improve the overall quality and wellbeing for every single citizen on this Island and which truly embraces and protects this Island’s culture, future and way of life. I look forward to listening to the rest of the debate, Mr President, along with reading the 2045 Programme for Government in January. Thank you.
The President: Hon. Member for Council, Mr Henderson.
2050 Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. I have to fully commend the Chief Minister’s proposal here today. I can fully subscribe and support, I think, every policy objective and statement he has just made. (A Member: Hear, hear.) It is excellent. What I would like to point out as well is the fact that I think I am right in saying that he may 2055 have made some political history here in as much as he has launched a Government manifesto at the beginning of a legislative term. I do not think we have seen that here before. We have seen Government policy documents generated as we have gone through administrations and we have all endured the Government policy debates over the years – or some of us have anyway, or had the misfortune of it – which is fine, going through great diatribes of objectives, key policy 2060 objectives, key performance initiatives, indicators, and all the rest of it. What I like about this is that the Chief Minister has been honest enough to stand up and say, ‘I said I was going to do this. It is here. Here it is.’ Even better, it is a collaborative document arrived at following a joint Tynwald workshop, where all Members had an input into the construction of this and were ‘livelily’ encouraged to put their views forward – if I can put it like 2065 that – which again is very welcome. We have arrived at a collaborative, collective document, which I think is really good. I do not think we have seen such an initiative, as I say – and hats off to the Chief Minister for achieving that probable first. I am especially picking up on points in the introduction of the document, as distributed in our 2070 Tynwald papers: collaborative working, joint working, inclusive working, because I strongly believe, Eaghtyrane, Hon. Members, that one of the key factors that has brought us the success we have got and enjoyed, and still enjoy to this point, is the security, stability and basic foundation that our political system is able to engender out there for our business community. I am not saying that business as usual is a static thing, far from it. What I am saying is that we 2075 want to be careful with what we have got here and keep the collaborative movement going forward. I am absolutely certain that we need to continue to drive that air of confidence into our economy – that air of security, that air of certainty – which plenty of businesses will say, ‘That is why were are here; that is why we are reinvesting; that is why we are growing.’ We need to keep that going. 2080 As I say, I am fully supportive of what the Chief Minister has said in his policy statements so, far from a static business as usual, I am supporting a business as usual to get that resonance with the business economy, but a business as usual that is energised, forward-thinking and able to plan and produce a realistic Programme of Government moving forward and that is able to produce the changes required. 2085 I have no problem with that whatsoever and I think we need that, our community needs it, and they want to see that we mean business as well. They have had enough in the past of being picked off at various points. I think now, as the Chief Minister has said, we need to grasp the nettle and pick on the big issues that will make the difference. We have all got our pet issues and ______142 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
that is fine, and we can all achieve objectives on our pet issues, but that is not going to make 2090 one bit of difference to the main issues on the table that are affecting our community now, and the Chief Minister has outlined those: growing the economy; looking at the pensions deficit; there is Manx State Pension as well that requires to be looked at; there is Brexit; we have got issues further across the Atlantic now that are unfolding, and we want to see how the new administration there comes into operation, and I am sure we can have a good working 2095 relationship as far as that goes. We need to keep our eye on the ball and somebody mentioned, just before, horizon scanning. I have always used the business phrase, ‘environmental scanning’ and that is what we need to get very good at going forward. It is not just looking at what is in front of us, Hon. Members, but looking at what is further ahead and on the horizon, and what is possibly over the 2100 horizon, so that we are prepared, we have got a plan in place and contingencies in the background. In the past, we have been woefully inadequate in anticipating or viewing what is starting to emerge on our horizon. Now is the time to start doing that a lot better. I think what the Chief Minister has said will encourage that to happen. 2105 Looking at the various points that the Chief Minister touched on, Eaghtyrane, such as local authority reform and I put a question to Tynwald. We are 36 miles long and 12 miles wide at the widest point – Mr Speaker is making some faces there – depending on which book or measuring tape you use, Mr Speaker. However, the point is we are but small. We have got 24 or so local authorities. We have got combi-authorities. We have got doubling up of services. I have two sets 2110 of bin lorries go past my house on separate days, for instance – what is that all about? I really do think that we do need to grasp that nettle. If we are going to pick some big issue principles that are going to produce some meaningful effects to our community, these are the kind of things we are going to need to look at; and produce an effective programme that covers the public service pension legacy deficit – those are the things. 2115 What can we do to grow the economy? There has been tremendous work put in and we need to continue with tremendous work. We do need to look at the planning system, but not everything in the planning system is broken. I would urge Hon. Members not to use the staff in the Planning Office as a default scapegoat or whipping post. It may not be done intentionally, but the feeling that is produced 2120 from here that rolls backwards down the hill into the Planning Office, having worked there myself, can have a tremendous effect and a tremendous demotivating effect. Those staff in there are willing to work extremely hard and to produce the results of our policies. They do not have a problem with that. What we need to be doing is to be brave enough to produce the policies, the far-reaching policies, with the breadth of vision that will produce the results we 2125 want. The planning staff are quite happy to carry out, as professionally as they can, what we ask them to do. I think that is where we need to be at. I am all for planning reform in the right places that produces the right effects. I am also not in it for reform for reform’s sake, just for the sake of a banner headline. I think we need to have meaningful reform or changes and I think one of the themes coming out of this debate in the 2130 build up to it was objectives and policies that are SMART – and I use the business acronym there: meaningful, targetable, budgeted and achievable, amongst other things, so that we are not just saying something and portraying something here, but at the end of a year, 24 months, there will achievable targets achieved. That is what we want to be aiming at. We have heard so much in this place over the years from previous policy debates where 2135 banner headlines have been put up and Government Departments have slotted their work streams into different areas of that policy document just to fit in. What I want to see is a real workable document. I will be very interested to see the teeth of it and the detail when it comes back: the actual objectives, with detail, which will give us the real vision on how things are going to go forward and what the Department’s thinking is in various areas.
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2140 We touched upon the Biosphere status, Eaghtyrane – something I am bound to talk about because, as everyone here knows, conservation is important to my heart. As much as we have the main issues on the table and the economy to solve, in the background and running parallel with that is our cultural identity, our heritage. To me, our natural heritage is one of the key most important things in the background of all this. I will be very interested to see how the 2145 biodiversity action plans are progressed – they are not talked about. We have that in June, July Tynwald, Eaghtyrane, where the biodiversity action plan was launched, the overall Biodiversity Strategy was launched. I want to see, in a few months’ time, a commitment from Government of what biodiversity action plans are put in place. That is what we need to see now. There are signs, Eaghtyrane, in some areas, that all in our natural heritage 2150 may not be as well as we would like to think. I think the biodiversity action plans are the way forward and the way to produce the results that we want, to keep the unique natural heritage specialness of our Island there and for our future generations. Those are my basic comments to kick off with, Eaghtyrane, and certainly I am pleased with the presentation from the Chief Minister thus far. 2155 The President: The Hon. Member for Douglas East, Mr Robertshaw.
Mr Robertshaw: Thank you, Mr President. I think it would be pretty miserable of anybody not to welcome the work done by the Chief 2160 Minister and the Council of Ministers in what is at this stage a simple, overarching indication of our future direction. In that respect, I absolutely welcome it. I concur very much with many of the comments that Mr Speaker made in his contribution – and I want to use his analogy, if I may borrow it for a moment, on one particular item. In many respects this is a good, overarching presentation of intent, but in there, on the 2165 second to last, we talk very specifically about a sea services agreement. That contrasts with everything else, which is very much overarching. I get the feeling that we are going to be receiving a user agreement very quickly. I just remind, Mr President, the difficulties that the Department of Infrastructure was under when it tried to, as it were, smuggle a user agreement through the last House and suffered a significant degree of problems in so doing. 2170 I just fear here that actually what the Council of Ministers are doing is wrapping up a user agreement in a bright shiny present, and sticking it towards the top of the Christmas tree and possibly presenting it to us as something that we need to accept. Well, I need to assure the Chief Minister that that present, if that is what the intention is, will be taken down, unwrapped and examined very carefully indeed, and if it is not right it will go on to eBay (Laughter) the following 2175 day –
A Member: Already there!
Mr Robertshaw: – because this is a very important issue. 2180 I do not concur with the Chief Minister’s comment that he made when he particularly referred to the user agreement, where somehow we have all sorts of limitations and we have to accept them and we must compromise. I think the Isle of Man needs an awful lot more ambition and determination to see a long-term marine and harbour strategy and sit a future user agreement within that. 2185 So, Mr President, I do look forward to unwrapping the present after Christmas. Thank you.
The President: The Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Ashford.
2190 Mr Ashford: Thank you, Mr President.
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Hon. Members will be pleased to know it is one of those rare occasions where I am going to be brief. (A Member: Hear, hear.) I thought that would get general consensus. I would like to, first of all, thank the Chief Minister for bringing this forward. I think it is a very good document and, as the Hon. Member for Douglas East, Mr Robertshaw, has just said, it 2195 would be hard for anyone to find fault with any of the principles in there. I think they are principles that all Members would definitely agree with, and I think most people outside this Hon. Court would agree with. I think that one of the great things about this is that it does set a clear direction for the administration and, something which the Hon. Member of Council, Mr Henderson, alluded to 2200 has not been there before necessarily, certainly at the start of an administration. I think it also though sends a clear message of intent, so not just of where they want to go. For me, I think this is a very inclusive policy and one of the key words in the entire document for me is ‘engage’. I think this is a document that does want to engage, not just with Members of this Hon. Court, but also people outside it. I personally think that is something that has been 2205 missing with previous strategies. Where there may have been good engagement inside of this Hon. Court, but I do not think necessarily we have always carried the people outside. I think this document sets a clear state of intent that for the next five years we are going to have an administration that does want to engage. Referring to page 5 of the document, the headlines, one of the key things for me, again, are 2210 the three words used there, ‘inclusive’, ‘tolerant’ and ‘sustainable.’ I think that is very clear, and I think, if we can get the overarching principles in place for that for when the document comes forward in January, it will be a great achievement. I would also like to congratulate the Chief Minister for sticking to the tight timetable for bringing this forward in January. It is a very tight timetable, especially with all the engagement 2215 that has had to take place, even to get these high-arching principles. I think it is important that it is in place prior to the Budget in February, and I would like to thank the Chief Minister and the Council of Ministers for being able to make that happen. I personally believe, Mr President, that this is a platform for stability and success over the next five years. I think it does, for the first time, provide streamlined focus to the life cycle of the 2220 administration. I have only got one more thing I really want to say, but I would like to, as well – since everyone else seems to be doing it – borrow Mr Speaker’s analogy. I look forward to the document in January because – using the Christmas tree analogy – you are never certain how it is going to look until the lights come on. (Laughter) 2225 The President: The Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Hooper.
Mr Hooper: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to start by saying that I am supportive of the three strategic objectives and the 2230 seven guiding principles that have been set out in this framework. By necessity, they are very high level – and I am not going to take the Christmas tree analogy here – so it is difficult to find serious fault with any of the items, and, whilst I may have chosen different wording for some of the guiding principles, I do not see any significant issues with them. Having said that, I do take issue with the items labelled as ‘outcomes’ and I am glad that 2235 Tynwald is not being asked to approve these today, as if that were the case I could not in good conscience support this framework. I echo the comments made by Mr Speaker regarding a lack of outcomes relating to rebalancing Government finances, but for me this is only the tip of the iceberg. Outcomes have to be measurable in order for them to mean anything, as the Hon. Member for Council, Mr Henderson, has already alluded to. If we cannot set against each 2240 outcome a set of measures or national performance indicators, as set out in the Chief Minister’s timetable, how do we know if we have achieved the outcome?
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I am dearly looking forward to the Chief Minister’s national performance indicators for the outcome. We take pride in our unique culture and national identity, so I am eager to discover how we as an Island will be 30% more proud of our culture at the end of his administration 2245 (Laughter) than we are today at its outset. Outcomes are goals to be achieved. ‘Affordable and accessible housing which meets social and economic needs’ is a measurable goal. We accept that at present we do not have an effective housing policy, and this Programme sets us a target to work towards. ‘Our legislation and regulation regimes are more responsive’ on the other hand, is such a 2250 vague goal as to be essentially meaningless. How responsive are we now? How do we measure responsiveness? Do we even have a measure for this at present, and if not how can we determine if we achieve this goal at the conclusion of this programme? And, especially in light of the Chief Minister’s comments regarding the pace of change, wouldn’t we rather our legislation and regulation be proactive rather than just responsive, or are we satisfied if the Island is simply 2255 responding to circumstance? As highlighted earlier by the Chief Minister, we should be leading the way and not just following in the footsteps of others. This brings me on to another point I would like to make regarding these outcomes. Surely an outcome is bringing about something that we do not currently have, brought about as a result of the Programme for Government. Is the Chief Minister implying then that we do not currently 2260 have ‘principled and reasonable taxes and charges’ and that it his Programme that will bring these about? I would be interested in his thoughts as to exactly which charges and taxes are not principled and reasonable, and look forward to hearing of his plans to remove these in the upcoming Budget. I urge the Chief Minister to look closely at these outcomes before bringing them back to 2265 Tynwald for approval. We all want a Programme for Government that works, but it must be meaningful and we must be able to measure progress against identifiable benchmarks. By taking a step back from the document itself, I would like to talk more broadly about the Programme for Government. In an Answer to my first Written Question, the Chief Minister outlined that his legislative programme will be:
… informed by, and determined as part of, the wider consideration and formulation of the Programme for Government.
2270 – and that it would
… link directly to the key policy themes within the Programme for Government …
To this end, I would be grateful if the Chief Minister could confirm that, when the full Programme is brought back to Tynwald in January, he will also bring with it a full legislative programme, tied into the Programme for Government he is presenting, in order that Tynwald can debate both together as a whole. This Programme should also be brought to Tynwald for 2275 debate each October, as it is intrinsic to the Programme for Government, and I would be grateful for confirmation of this from the Chief Minister. When looking at legislation and regulation, I would like to see included in this Programme for Government a commitment to reforming our outdated abortion laws; a commitment to reviewing the sentencing guidelines; and a move away from box ticking, compliance-style 2280 regulation and towards more pragmatic, principle-based and individualised regulation. Not every business operates in the same way, and I believe it can be damaging and inappropriate to try and force what are often very different business models into badly fitting regulatory boxes. A large focus of the last administration was on making a smaller, smarter Government and I do not want us to lose sight of this goal. This does not mean simply privatising or cutting back on 2285 services. It means working to deliver high-quality services more effectively, using the resources at our disposal. So I firmly believe we need to look at the way in which we deliver Government services.
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A key part of making Government effective for all must be in the delivery of more services locally as well as online. Growth in digital delivery is going to be fundamental to ensuring 2290 Government is as accessible as possible, but not everyone has the digital skills to enable them to access online services. This means we need greater involvement with local authorities to enable them to deliver more services in their communities. (A Member: Hear, hear.) Only last week the Minister for Policy and Reform concurred that reforming local authorities was integral to reducing the scope and size of Government, and I am pleased to note his 2295 comments that it will need to form an integral part of the Programme for Government. As part of looking at where services are delivered, we also need to look at how they are delivered and how they are funded, and I am pleased that the Treasury Minister also made these comments in another place earlier this month. It is no good to just look at our expenditure. We also need to focus on how we raise money 2300 to pay for our services; whether they should be rate-funded or tax-funded; whether rates are even a fair system of raising revenue; whether charging for certain services is appropriate or whether some services should simply be universal. A fundamental tax and spending review is needed to ensure that we really do end up with the principled and reasonable taxes and charges talked about in this framework. While I am 2305 pleased that a review of the rating system is already underway, this cannot be looked at in isolation. We need to stay a low tax jurisdiction, but this does not come without its challenges and we need to ensure the burden of paying for our services does not fall unfairly on working families. It is essential that we remain competitive, and so this review should look at all aspects of our 2310 tax policy and all the benefits on offer, from the tax cap to Income Support, and should lead us on to a fair and meaningful system of means testing that enables us to better target our finite resources. I say this with care: means testing needs to be an enabler. It needs to be designed to help identify people who need assistance, not primarily to restrict the availability of support. I urge 2315 the Minister for Policy and Reform to exercise great care when looking to implement any system of means testing. Where means testing should be aimed at developing fairer and more equitable support systems, Government itself needs to develop fairer and more equitable services and better service delivery. As part of this, Government needs to ensure that it does its part to help establish unquestionably in people’s minds that the Island is a well-regulated jurisdiction in 2320 which to live and work and, to this end, we need an independent ombudsman to provide adequate regulation of Government services and to ensure high-quality service delivery. I welcome the Chief Minister’s comments on this matter. We need an independent Auditor General to keep an eye on Government spending; we need an independent health regulator to oversee our health service; effective oversight of 2325 monopolies; and we need effective regulation of our energy market, especially if we are looking to encourage growth in this sector. I urge the Council of Ministers to consider the benefits independent regulation and scrutiny can bring. I suppose somewhat inevitably we have arrived at growth. Economic growth needs to be a key focus of this administration: ensuring that Government creates the right environment for 2330 business to thrive, supporting local business and inward investment, and ensuring the Island offers job security and lifelong education and training, as well as ensuring the Island remains a fantastic place to live. This means ensuring that we have world-class education, staring from pre- schools – which I believe should be better funded and more educationally focused – through to an extensive support for higher education and vocational, lifelong education, both on and off 2335 the Island. I look forward to working with the Minister for Education on this new strategy. It means safeguarding our transport links, providing certainty to the Island, and it means ensuring we have sustainable and affordable health and social care. I fully support the Chief Minister’s comments regarding moving towards more personalised care, and I would like the Minister for Health and Social Care to consider the introduction of personal care budgets. ______147 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
2340 It means, as already highlighted by the Chief Minister, we need to reform our Byzantine planning system to give business more confidence to invest and to give people the ability to improve and transform their communities. It means we have to engage fully with the international community to attract inward investment and also take full advantage of any opportunities that Brexit throws out. At the same 2345 time we are looking internationally, we also need to look inwardly to ensure that we have strong local economies in all the towns and parishes to ensure that we have vibrant, healthy and thriving communities across the Island. This does not mean growth at any cost, and I am pleased to hear the Chief Minister’s comments regarding protecting our unique heritage and identity and safeguarding our unique 2350 biosphere status. Growth needs to be sustainable and needs to bring about benefit for the whole Island. We cannot get caught up in headline figures of GDP growth and increased population whilst ignoring the consequences for our infrastructure and our quality of life. We must not bend the rules or bypass the checks and balances we have in place in the name of the economy. There needs to be 2355 a level playing field for all who want to do business on our Island. Hon. Members, I could carry on all day (Laughter) and still only scratch the surface –
The Speaker: Cancel lunch!
2360 A Member: Please don’t!
Mr Hooper: – of what we need to achieve in the next five years. In all honesty, I could probably finish off today just talking about pensions. I would like to commend the Chief Minister and the Council of Ministers for their open and 2365 inclusive approach to developing this framework. I hope that this will continue over the coming months as they work to flesh out the Programme for Government. I hope that the Council of Ministers will be able to bring back to Tynwald a Programme for Government that we can all get behind in January. Thank you, Mr President. 2370 A Member: Hear, hear.
The President: Hon. Members, at this point we will adjourn for lunch and resume at 2.30 p.m. sharp, when the first Member to be called will be the Hon. Member for Douglas 2375 Central, Mr Thomas.
The Court adjourned at 1.05 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 2.30 p.m.
Programme for Government – Debate continued – Motion carried
The President: Please be seated, Hon. Members. We resume the debate at Item 5, Programme for Government, and I call on the Hon. Member for Douglas Central, Mr Thomas.
2380 The Minister for Policy and Reform (Mr Thomas): Thank you, Mr President.
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What a shame I did not get a chance to speak before lunch, and to do it very quickly. Mr Speaker says I have got until teatime if necessary. Is that correct, Mr President? (Laughter)
A Member: Tea is in two minutes! 2385 Mr Anderson: It just seems like it! (Laughter)
The President: Thank you, Hon. Member.
2390 Mr Thomas: My first point is that the appeal to have performance indicators, definite action plans and the legislative programme linked to the plan is a perfectly realistic expectation, and in fact that is already scheduled and timetabled in the framework document that is here for you today. Before March 2017 this Hon. Court, and the general public, can expect that sort of information which is absolutely necessary for a good Programme for Government. 2395 The second point I wanted to make briefly, is that some of the issues that have been picked up are actually genuinely premature. For instance, to start talking about what exactly is an appropriate and equitable pension and pensions arrangement is premature, given that by February 2017, in good faith, negotiations are going on to bring back how exactly the arrangement will be arranged to make the pension system sustainable for Government. And in 2400 fact to bring all pensions forward, such that we have a good arrangement for all people in the future. And likewise with, ‘What exactly are principled and reasonable taxes and charges?’ That would be premature in the sense that, presumably everybody in this Court would accept, that was for the Treasury Minister and that was for this place later on, when we come to prepare for 2405 the Budget and thereafter the medium-term financial strategy. The third brief point I wanted to make is one about timing. There have already been compliments to the Chief Minister for having got us to where we are so quickly. And I just wanted to continue in the Christmas tree theme by saying it is obviously the case that Christmas has come earlier this year than it has in previous years, and I am trying to understand why that 2410 is. I think to myself it is probably because we have got a particularly good set of reindeers pulling the big sledge! (Laughter) So I am thinking to myself, who is Rudolph and where is the red nose? Obviously it is not the Chief Minister so it must be my hon. colleague in the Department, Mr Ashford; or perhaps it is the staff, Dan Davies, up there – but I suppose he might be Dancer or Prancer or Blitzen. 2415 (Laughter) Help me, Mrs Caine, you have got little children –
Mr Speaker: We are looking to the January sales already!
The President: Hon. Member, would you address your remarks through the Chair? (Laughter 2420 and interjections)
Mr Thomas: Thank you very much, Mr President, I take that point. So all that is to say is that the Chief Minister is doing very well and the timetable so far for the Programme for Government is well in line with Sir Miles Walker’s. And it seems to me much 2425 quicker, if we can keep up this progress, than the last administration – and that must be encouraged and it must be something to remark on. It will mean that we have got the whole of these five years of this House to work with the whole of the four years of local government, and to work with every other stakeholder in this Programme for Government around the Island with the maximum time possible. 2430 That leads on to my fourth brief point, which is obviously the outcomes are not finalised and the Programme for Government is not complete, and that is why it is called a framework for the development of the Programme for Government. So just because there is not a lot in there ______149 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
about the arts and culture strategy, it does not mean that arts and culture is not important. Just because climate change is only mentioned very briefly, that does not in any way take attention 2435 away from the four or five excellent strategies and policies which have been put in place by DEFA in the last recent years. Just because housing hardly gets a mention at this stage, it does not mean that housing is unimportant. And just because population is only sketched out at the first stages, it does not mean that we will not need a great many other things towards population strategy … and so on, and so on. This is very much work in progress. 2440 That leads on to my fifth and final point, which is that I am sure the Chief Minister will confirm how encouraging this debate has been. I am sure other speakers who are going to speak in this Hon. Court will have interesting and important things to say. But beyond this Hon. Court we have actually been approached in the Department as we are preparing the Programme for Government by a great number of people from outside. And the more formal that approach can 2445 be, the better for us. In other words, if you can work with others outside to actually put together a submission on behalf of yourself and others with specific suggestions, that is appreciated. I encourage people to engage in the process of preparing the Programme for Government before Christmas, so that we can continue the progress that has been made and we can actually keep on the timetable that is ambitious, but will be very valuable if we can achieve it. 2450 Thank you very much, Mr President.
The President: Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Shimmins.
Mr Shimmins: Thank you, Mr President. 2455 I welcome the Programme for Government, as we must have a coherent strategy to address the big picture issues. We must not underestimate the scale of the demographic challenges that we face. We live in fast-moving times and I would suggest that we resist the natural temptation to delve into the minutiae. It feels to me that we have an unfortunate tendency to overcomplicate 2460 things. This may perhaps be a deliberate tactic used by some who wish to avoid change. I am not sure. What I do know is that if we end up with page after page of action plans and KPIs then this will delay and sidetrack much-needed change. The number of young and economically active people on the Island appears to be declining, 2465 so I was delighted to hear the Chief Minister’s comments focusing on the growth of jobs and young people. If we can significantly grow these numbers whilst quickly driving sensible change to reflect the fact that we are living in the 21st century, then all of our futures will be much brighter.
2470 The President: Hon. Member for Garff, Mrs Caine.
Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to thank the Chief Minister and the Council of Ministers for making good their promise to listen and to foster an inclusive policymaking process, and I congratulate them on 2475 this Programme for Government. There is nothing not to like in the high-level objectives set out in the framework. But the outcomes here are a bit vague and could be smarter perhaps, with a definite tick list of targets to be attained. There is also the issue of how it will be funded. I look forward to seeing greater detail in the New Year. 2480 If I may though, I will take this opportunity to offer a few suggestions for detailed policies that I hope may be considered. Under the heading ‘Making government effective for all’, could the Chief Minister confirm that as well as ensuring Government engages with Tynwald and the public, he will tackle the long-overdue issue of local authority reform? Any reform must be considered alongside ______150 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
2485 devolving more services to local authorities, in parallel with the implementation of a fairer system of rates or community charging to pay for those local services. This should not be a means to increasing charges but a more equal system of collecting and distributing the income from rates. Implementing means testing for housing and benefits is to be welcomed, but there are significant efficiencies that can be achieved in terms of the delivery of local services. 2490 The focus on early years education is essential if the Isle of Man is to hold its own in the standard of education provision. One of the most short-sighted financial cuts imposed by the last administration is already having an impact on children. Not only does the lack of state provision have a direct impact on the life outcomes for a number of children who have missed out on quality early years education, it also results in costly additional services being required 2495 throughout their life. This must be a top priority for the new administration. Quality assessed preschool education must be accessible to all. Another area close to my heart is to ensure we conserve our natural environment and sensitively develop our built environment. The accolade of the Isle of Man being granted UNESCO Biosphere Reserve status should allow us to focus on what is important. Certain bad 2500 practices should be stopped as a priority, such as untreated sewage being discharged into the sea. We should be ensuring in respect of our beaches and bathing water that we strive for the highest standards, that we concentrate on conserving our hill lands, improve maintenance of our footpaths and promote the Island’s natural beauty to grow the visitor economy further. Sustainable food, fisheries and agriculture will take careful consideration to ensure a fairer 2505 deal for farmers. In particular, introducing a Manx provenance label for all home-grown produce would also provide a boost for the sector and the Island’s profile. And while I am speaking of sustainable policies, I would like the Programme for Government to include supportive policies for encouraging sustainable development, particularly promoting the use of energy-saving technology in public sector housing, and the promotion or 2510 incentivisation of using Passivhaus technology generally. I would also like clear targets in respect of ensuring the Isle of Man meets its responsibilities towards climate change, our development of renewable energy and commitment to recycling. Finally under the guiding principle of ‘Maintaining our strong identity and international reputation’, specifically the outcome that we take pride in our unique culture and national 2515 identity, I would suggest that our investment in sports over many years, including the ambitious development of a National Sports Centre, has paid dividends in terms of the Isle of Man’s significant sporting successes; but perhaps more could be achieved culturally if similar investment were considered for the arts. The development of a national arts centre, for instance, could be the catalyst for the next generation of home-grown artists, musicians and 2520 actors, boosting the creative industries economy and enhancing the Island’s reputation on the world stage. The Chief Minister alluded to fashion label Preen and Samantha Barks in his introduction. What fantastic ambassadors they are for our culture and how many more could follow? The Isle of Man has prided itself for many years on developing a diversified economy through 2525 innovative and responsive policy-making. I would like the present Council of Ministers to ensure the full detailed Programme for Government is aspirational as well as deliverable. We should be striving to lead and not to follow other jurisdictions; we need boldness as well as fairness to be evident in the Programme for Government. I am happy to support the guiding principles and high-level objectives of the Programme for 2530 Government that is before us today and I look forward to seeing the more detailed policies that will follow in January. And, to borrow the Christmas tree theme, I trust that we will have some tinsel and sparkle as well as strategies for sustainable growth. Thank you, Mr President.
2535 The President: I call on the mover to reply. Mr Quayle.
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The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. You caught me out, I have not been able to look up any suitable Christmas tree jokes! (Laughter) 2540 But if I could, first of all, thank our first speaker – Mr Speaker – for his comments and his Christmas tree analogy as the leader of the Keys at the top of the tree. I am not going to call him a fairy (Laughter) and I have known him too long to call him an angel, so I will just say he could be our guiding star on helping take change forward. He raised certain concerns in going forward, and I think it is fair to point out that our chief 2545 officers have been involved with the horizon-scanning too. But we do intend to involve all Members to take comments forward. Just briefly jumping quickly on to Mrs Caine’s point of view: if Hon. Members have views that they feel strongly about, go and see the Ministers, go see the Chief Executives and put your views over to them. We are here to listen to you and to take on board your comments. Do not 2550 wait for the debate in January – just say, ‘No, we want this, that and the other.’ I want to listen and hear what you have got to say now, so that when we are developing our policy we can take that on board. And we will be doing more of the workshop groups to listen to all of your comments. If I could also point out to the Hon. Mr Speaker, Council is keen to get our priorities which will 2555 then allow the Treasury Minister to set longer-term budgets and financial strategy. Mr Callister was commenting on lifelong learning strategy and that we should address concerns for second-chance training and skills, in his comments. But I do thank him very much for his support. And he is right, who does not want to reduce red tape that slows down businesses? He also supported the good transport links which are absolutely key. 2560 We move on to Mr Henderson. Again, he was very supportive of the document and the collaboration and where all Members had had an input. We do hope, as I say, to engage Members further for their views, in various workshops. Being awarded the Biosphere status means a commitment to developing our natural landscape and there is now a working group looking at how best to develop that, just to reassure Mr Henderson. And, for those new 2565 Members who have not listened to his speeches over the last five years, like I have had the honour, he is very passionate about the Island’s infrastructure, the countryside and the wildlife and ensuring that we maintain the beautiful Island that we already have. I would not have expected any different from him in his speeches, so I thank him very much. Moving on, we had Mr Robertshaw and his first step would be policy regarding the sea links, 2570 and he was concerned that he was not going to get one big present next month where everything was going to be debated. And, just to reassure him, this is purely a step to discuss the strategy. It is not going to be everything all at once. I purposely put it in my speech, Mr President, about our links with the adjacent isle, because it is so incredibly important that we get it right. We are not going to rush into it or try and disguise things to sweep them under the 2575 carpet. It needs full and frank debate in this Court and he will get his wish on that one. It might not agree with his wish but he will certainly get a full and frank debate on it. Mr Ashford, on engaging the public: we would welcome his and other Members’ support in helping to get public support for all our issues. As I say, we are where we are now probably a year ahead of some other administrations, by working together as a team, and if we can get the 2580 public on board with that too then that has got to be the way forward. Mr Hooper, quite a lengthy speech, he had obviously put a lot of work into that and I thank him for his detail. But one of the key areas I think, if he gets chance to read the National Health and Care Service Bill that I took forward in a previous life, we did have key markers and we did set out how we were going to measure success, because obviously that is key. That will be 2585 brought forward, on how we are going to develop outcomes, to check that we have gone the right way and that we have delivered something rather than just talking about it. And that is why we are bringing this strategy back every year. It is not just that we are going to do a January debate and then that is the last you will hear of it. We have committed that every year we will ______152 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
be coming back to Tynwald for all Members to have a discussion on what has worked, or has not 2590 worked, and what needs tweaking. He wanted us to bring a full legislative programme to the debate in January but, whilst I like to think we have achieved an awful lot, the realities of delivering a full programme by January would just be totally impractical from a legislation point of view. But we will try and share as much as possible. I would be lying to him if I committed to do that because it is just not practical, 2595 I am afraid, at this point. Moving on to my colleague from Middle. It was a very brief but to-the-point speech, and I am sure Mr President likes those sorts of speeches as he was lecturing earlier on about getting your points over succinctly. But he is right, our role should set the direction of travel and it is getting on with the key issues that this Island faces and not being bogged down in minutiae. But I think 2600 his point was well made. If I could thank, as I have commented on, Mrs Caine’s point of view. She mentioned a few areas she was wanting to discuss, but we did actually have that in my speech – local authority reform, pre-school education – and the Education and Children Minister is working on a strategy. We have already increased the spend in that area, but we will be doing even more 2605 going forward. I think I have addressed everyone, but my apologies if I have missed anyone out. I thank this Hon. Court for its support for this programme. As I say, we are only going to achieve this if we carry on working together and really value all Members’ feedback. I hope you can give it your support. 2610 I beg to move.
The President: Hon. Members, the motion is that set out at Item 5. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it.
A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows:
In the Keys – Ayes 24, Noes 0
FOR AGAINST Mr Ashford None Mr Baker Mrs Beecroft Mr Boot Mrs Caine Mr Callister Mr Cannan Mrs Corlett Mr Cregeen Dr Allinson Mr Harmer Mr Hooper Mr Malarkey Miss Bettison Mr Moorhouse Ms Edge Mr Peake Mr Perkins Mr Quayle Mr Robertshaw Mr Shimmins Mr Skelly Mr Speaker Mr Thomas
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The Speaker: Mr President, the result from the Keys is 24 for, none against
In the Council – Ayes 7, Noes 0
FOR AGAINST Mr Anderson None Mr Coleman Mr Corkish Mr Cretney Mr Crookall Mr Henderson Mr Turner
2615 The President: In the Council, 7 for and none against. The motion carries unanimously.
6. Statutory Boards and Bodies – Political appointments approved
The Chief Minister to move:
That Tynwald approves the appointment of: (a) Mr M J Perkins MHK as Chair of the Isle of Man Office of Fair Trading (b) Mr G C Corkish MBE MLC as Vice Chair of the Isle of Man Office of Fair Trading (c) Ms J M Edge MHK as Chair of the Isle of Man Post Office (d) Mr T P Wild MLC as Vice Chair of the Isle of Man Post Office (e) Dr A J Allinson MHK as Chair of the Manx Utilities Authority (f) Mr T M Crookall MLC as Vice Chair of the Manx Utilities Authority (g) Hon. C C Thomas MHK as Chair of Culture Vannin (h) Mr G C Corkish MBE MLC as Vice Chair of Culture Vannin (i) Mr G C Corkish MBE MLC as a Member of Tynwald Advisory Council for Disabilities (j) Miss C L Bettison MHK as a Member of Tynwald Advisory Council for Disabilities (k) Hon. A L Cannan MHK as a Member of the War Pensions Committee [MEMO]
The President: Turning to Item 6, Political Appointments to Statutory Boards and Bodies. I call on the Chief Minister to move.
The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): Thank you, Mr President. 2620 The Council of Ministers is pleased to recommend the Chairs and Vice-Chairs of the Statutory Boards and Bodies. Council is keen to bring a range of experienced candidates to these important roles in light of the challenges that they will face in the years ahead. In respect of the Isle of Man Office of Fair Trading, it is proposed that the Hon. Member for Garff, Mr Perkins, is appointed as Chairperson. Mr Perkins’ commercial experience will be a 2625 valuable contribution to the work of the board. It is proposed that the Hon. Member for Council, Mr Corkish, be reappointed as Vice- Chairperson. The experience provided by Mr Corkish to this role will be of considerable support to the Chairperson and the board. In respect of Isle of Man Post Office, it is proposed that Miss Edge, the Hon. Member for 2630 Onchan, is appointed as Chairperson. Ms Edge brings with her range of management and public sector experience which is essential to the work of the board.
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It is proposed that the Hon. Member of Council, Mr Wild, be re-appointed as Vice- Chairperson. Mr Wild is an experienced Member of Tynwald who, I am sure, will support the Chair through this coming period. 2635 In respect of the Manx Utilities Authority, it is proposed that Dr Allinson, the Hon. Member for Ramsey, is appointed as the Chairperson. This appointment will bring a fresh contribution to the work of the board. It is proposed that the Hon. Member of Council, Mr Crookall, be appointed as Vice- Chairperson. Mr Crookall brings extensive knowledge and experience having previously sat on 2640 the boards of the Isle of Man Water Authority and the Office of Fair Trading. Mr President, in addition to the statutory boards, there are a number of appointments to be made to the following statutory bodies. In respect of Culture Vannin, it is proposed that Mr Thomas, the Hon. Member for Douglas Central, is appointed as the Chairperson. Mr Thomas’ varied and extensive background will allow 2645 him to make a significant contribution to the work of Culture Vannin. It is proposed that the Hon. Member of Council, Mr Corkish, be reappointed as Vice- Chairperson. During his previous tenure, Mr Corkish has demonstrated a high degree of commitment to this role, and I am confident he will build upon this. In respect of the Tynwald Advisory Council for Disabilities, it is proposed that Mr Corkish, the 2650 Hon. Member of Council, is reappointed as a member. As with the previous appointment, Mr Corkish has again demonstrated a high degree of commitment to the work of the Council for Disabilities. It is also proposed that the Hon. Member for Douglas East, Miss Bettison, be appointed as a member. Miss Bettison’s background provides valuable experience to allow her to make a 2655 significant contribution towards the work of the Council for Disabilities. In respect of the War Pensions Committee, it is proposed that Mr Cannan, the Hon. Member for Ayre and Michael, is appointed as a member. Mr Cannan’s varied and extensive background and experience will allow him to make a significant contribution towards the work of the War Pensions Committee. 2660 Just before I finish, Mr President, on behalf of the Council of Ministers I would like to pay tribute to the hard work and commitment of all the outgoing Members. Their contribution to the work of the statutory boards and statutory bodies has been invaluable. Mr President, the Council of Ministers has again sought to appoint an experienced team to lead these statutory boards and bodies and, with this, I beg to move the motion standing in my 2665 name.
The President: Hon. Member for Douglas Central, Mr Thomas.
The Minister for Policy and Reform (Mr Thomas): Thank you, Mr President. 2670 I beg leave to second, and reserve my remarks.
The President: Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Hooper.
Mr Hooper: Thank you, Mr President. 2675 I would like to move that the propositions be debated as one but voted upon separately, under Standing Order 3.12.
Mr Cretney: I am happy to second that.
2680 The President: Is that agreed, that the motion be moved as one and voted on the constituent parts separately? Is that agreeable, Hon. Members? (Members: Agreed.)
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In that case, I put first of all under Item 6, the proposition Mr M J Perkins, Chair of the Isle of Man Office of Fair Trading. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The 2685 ayes have it. Mr Corkish as Vice-Chair of the Isle of Man Office of Fair Trading. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it.
A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows:
In the Keys – Ayes 22, Noes 2
FOR AGAINST Mr Ashford Mr Hooper Mr Baker Mr Moorhouse Mrs Beecroft Mr Boot Mrs Caine Mr Callister Mr Cannan Mrs Corlett Mr Cregeen Dr Allinson Mr Harmer Mr Malarkey Miss Bettison Ms Edge Mr Peake Mr Perkins Mr Quayle Mr Robertshaw Mr Shimmins Mr Skelly Mr Speaker Mr Thomas
The Speaker: Mr President, in the Keys the votes are 22 for, 2 against.
In the Council – Ayes 6, Noes 1
FOR AGAINST Mr Anderson Mr Cretney Mr Coleman Mr Corkish Mr Crookall Mr Henderson Mr Turner
2690 The President: In the Council, 6 for, 1 against. The motion carries. Next, that Miss J M Edge be appointed Chair of the Isle of Man Post Office. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. That Mr T P Wild be appointed Vice-Chair of Isle of Man Post Office. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it.
A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows:
In Tynwald – Ayes 24, Noes 7
FOR AGAINST Mr Ashford Mr Anderson ______156 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
Mr Baker Mr Coleman Mrs Beecroft Mr Corkish Mr Boot Mr Cretney Mrs Caine Mr Hooper Mr Callister Mr Peake Mr Cannan Mr Turner Mrs Corlett Mr Cregeen Mr Crookall Dr Allinson Mr Harmer Mr Henderson Mr Malarkey Miss Bettison Mr Moorhouse Ms Edge Mr Perkins Mr Quayle Mr Robertshaw Mr Shimmins Mr Skelly Mr Speaker Mr Thomas
2695 The President: Under Standing Orders, Tynwald votes as one body on these appointments – I should have made that clear, my apologies, Hon. Members. We have 24 votes for, and 7 against. The motion therefore carries. Next, that Dr A J Allinson be appointed as Chair of the Manx Utilities Authority. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. 2700 That Mr T M Crookall be appointed Vice-Chair of the Manx Utilities Authority. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it.
A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows:
In Tynwald – Ayes 30, Noes 1
FOR AGAINST Mr Anderson Mr Hooper Mr Ashford Mr Baker Mrs Beecroft Mr Boot Mrs Caine Mr Callister Mr Cannan Mr Coleman Mr Corkish Mrs Corlett Mr Cregeen Mr Cretney Mr Crookall Dr Allinson Mr Harmer Mr Henderson Mr Malarkey Miss Bettison Mr Moorhouse Ms Edge Mr Peake Mr Perkins
______157 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
Mr Quayle Mr Robertshaw Mr Shimmins Mr Skelly Mr Speaker Mr Thomas Mr Turner
The President: We have 30 votes for and 1 against. The motion therefore carries. Next, that the Hon. C C Thomas be appointed as Chair of Culture Vannin. Those in favour, 2705 please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Next, that Mr G C Corkish should be appointed Vice-Chair of Culture Vannin. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. Thank you, Hon. Members.
A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows:
In Tynwald – Ayes 31, Noes 0
FOR AGAINST Mr Anderson None Mr Ashford Mr Baker Mrs Beecroft Mr Boot Mrs Caine Mr Callister Mr Cannan Mr Coleman Mr Corkish Mrs Corlett Mr Cregeen Mr Cretney Mr Crookall Dr Allinson Mr Harmer Mr Henderson Mr Hooper Mr Malarkey Miss Bettison Mr Moorhouse Ms Edge Mr Peake Mr Perkins Mr Quayle Mr Robertshaw Mr Shimmins Mr Skelly Mr Speaker Mr Thomas Mr Turner
The President: We have 31 votes for, none against. The motion carries. 2710 Next, that Mr G C Corkish be appointed a member of Tynwald Advisory Council for Disabilities. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. That Miss C L Bettison be appointed a member of Tynwald Advisory Council for Disabilities. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. That Hon. A L Cannan be appointed a member of the War Pensions Committee. Those in 2715 favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. ______158 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
Thank you, Hon. Members.
7. Environment and Infrastructure Policy Review Committee – Third Report 2015-16: Dredging of Peel Harbour and Disposal of Extracted Material – Report received and recommendation approved
The former Chairman of the Environment and Infrastructure Policy Review Committee (Mr Wild) to move:
That the Third Report of the Environment and Infrastructure Policy Review Committee for the Session 2015-2016: Dredging of Peel Harbour and Disposal of Extracted Material [PP No 2016/0106] be received and that the following recommendation be approved –
That the Department of Infrastructure should report to Tynwald by January 2017 with details of the costed plans for the replacement of the temporary storage facility at Rockmount and setting out in detail the planned maintenance programme for Peel Marina for the next three years.
[GD No 2016/0067] is relevant to this Item.
The President: We turn now to Item 7, Environment and Infrastructure Policy Review Committee. In the absence of the former Chairman of that Committee, I understand Committee member, Mr Cregeen is to move. 2720 Hon. Member.
A Member of the Environment and Infrastructure Policy Review Committee (Mr Cregeen): Thank you, Mr President. The Third Report of the Environment and Infrastructure Policy Review Committee for the 2725 2015-16 session was laid before Tynwald Court in July 2016 and concerned the issue of the dredging of the Peel Marina and the disposal of the extracted material. In April 2015, Peel Marina was dredged because a build-up of silt had resulted in some of the berths becoming unusable. The material removed contained heavy metal and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbon contaminants; in simple terms, an organic compound of carbon and 2730 hydrogen which can be harmful to sea life. The material was transported to a temporary storage site at Rockmount, on the Poortown Road. This project attracted some negative publicity and several questions were asked in Tynwald and the House of Keys. Members may recall that both the Public Accounts Committee and the Environment and Infrastructure Committee decided to review this exercise. 2735 The Public Accounts Committee investigated the financial and procurement aspects of the project and the Committee’s report to Tynwald was debated in March 2016. The Committee’s recommendation in terms of the importance of adherence to the financial regulations was unanimously supported. The Environment and Infrastructure Policy Review Committee’s investigations into this issue 2740 examined the events leading up to the build-up of the silt in the Peel Marina and the environmental and financial risks which determined this matter as being judged as urgent. In a 2002 report and the subsequent business case for the Peel Marina in 2006 both referenced to maintenance dredging requirements. Limited dredging was undertaken in 2008 before the Marina opened in 2009. Further dredging was planned for 2011 but, because of 2745 problems with the contractor, this exercise did not take place. The Department undertook plough dredging in 2012 which the Chief Executive advised the Committee was, ‘satisfactory and successful in that year’. ______159 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
However, by April 2013 a critical sediment build up was reported indicating that the level of dredging undertaken previously had not been sufficient. In 2014, 4,000 tonnes of silt were 2750 dredged and disposed of at two sites at sea and the dispersal was monitored by the Department of Environment, Food and Agriculture. In January 2015, the Council of Ministers’ Environment & Infrastructure Sub-Committee considered an options paper presented by the Department of Infrastructure which recommended dredging and disposal, preferably to a deep water site at sea, over two years. 2755 The Sub-Committee asked that consideration be given to dredging and disposal in one year with disposal at the identified deep water sites. The Department of Environment, Food and Agriculture then advised that further disposal at sea, particularly of approximately 20,000 tonnes which now needed to be removed, would be environmentally damaging and would present an economic threat to the Queen Scallop fisheries. 2760 In mid-February 2015 the decision to find a land-based disposal site was made. The independent planning inspector’s report, written with reference to the retrospective planning permission for the chosen temporary disposal site at Rockmount, explains the options considered and concludes that, ‘no realistic alternative land disposal options were evident’. The Committee considered whether this action was an emergency. The Committee’s 2765 conclusion was that the Department of Infrastructure did not want the financial risk of closing the Peel Marina and therefore the Department considered this situation was an emergency. The Department had been advised of the environmental and financial risk of disposal at sea and so used the provisions under the Public Health Act to allow the location of land-based storage. The independent planning inspector considered that the resolution was overriding in 2770 comparison to the temporary impact on the countryside and short-term impact of the road haulage. The Committee has concluded that the Department of Infrastructure’s failure to manage this maintenance work i.e. the dredging led to this urgent situation, was then temporarily redeemed by treating it as an emergency. In light of the previous failures to plan and manage this issue, the 2775 Committee has recommended that the Department should provide reassurance by reporting to Tynwald by January 2017. However, I would like to express the Committee’s appreciation to the Hon. Minister for Infrastructure for such reassuring and positive responses through the Council of Ministers which form part of Members’ papers. Mr President, I beg to move. 2780 The President: Mr Harmer.
The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Harmer): I beg to second and reserve my remarks.
2785 The President: If no one wishes to speak, I put the motion set out at Item 7. Mr Harmer.
Mr Harmer: I was expecting somebody to speak, but if not I will – (Laughter)
Mr Cregeen: Here we go! 2790 Mr Ashford: High expectations!
Mr Malarkey: Too late!
2795 Mr Harmer: Mr President, further to my comments in response to the report of the Environment and Infrastructure Policy Review Committee to the dredging of Peel Marina in 2015, I would like to add that discussions have already started between my Department and the Department of Environment, Food and Agriculture regarding a range of matters.
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Most importantly, I have agreed with the Minister that we will work together to identify and 2800 address the sources of pollution that create problems in our harbours and seas. We tend to think of the impact of the historic mining activities, but we also have to consider historic landfill and industrial sites. The aim is not only to identify the problems but also to see if there are approaches we can use at the source of any pollution. This will be a substantial piece of work aimed at long-term changes; but clearly we have current problems and need more immediate 2805 measures as well. My Department’s engineers are finalising design works on a silt trap upstream of the location that will help to control depths in the Marina. Clearly, the silt from this trap will have to be emptied periodically, so my Department is continuing working on a long-term solution to the treatment and storage of problematic waste, including dredged harbour silts. Currently, officers 2810 are working with those businesses who submitted proposals in response to a prior information notice with a view to moving ahead with a formal procurement next year. I realise, of course, that these works are critical to allow our harbours and marinas to be kept clear. I expect the Department will be able to start dredging works in Peel in March or April in 2017. I hope to be able to give a full update, plus the required information regarding the details 2815 of the costed plans for the replacement of the temporary storage facility in Rockmount, in the January sitting. Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Mr Cregeen, you have the right of reply. 2820 Mr Cregeen: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to thank my seconder and I would also like to acknowledge the hard work of the Clerk of the Committee, Joann Corkish, for all the work she has done. Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move. 2825 The President: Hon. Members, I put the motion that is set out at Item 7. Those in favour, please say aye; against no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.
8. Funding of Nursing and Residential Care – Report and recommendations – Amended motion carried
The Chairman of the Select Committee on the Funding of Nursing and Residential Care to move:
That the Report of the Select Committee on the Funding of Nursing and Residential Care 2015- 16 [PP No 2016/0120] be received and that the following recommendations be approved –
Recommendation 1 That the Council of Ministers should investigate ways of exploiting service users’ capital assets as a source of funding for nursing and residential care, and report to Tynwald by June 2017.
Recommendation 2 That a separate fund should be established to support the funding of nursing and residential care.
Recommendation 3 That consideration should be given to placing the new fund in the hands of a group of independent trustees. ______161 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
Recommendation 4 That an income stream for the new care home fund should be identified in the context of the wider social security reform agenda.
[GD No 2016/0068] is relevant to this item.
The President: Item 8, Funding of Nursing and Residential Care. I call on the Chairman of the Select Committee, the Hon. Member for Douglas East, Mr 2830 Robertshaw.
The Chairman of the Select Committee on the Funding of Nursing and Residential Care (Mr Robertshaw): Mr President, thank you. I rise to move the Report of the Select Committee on the Funding of Nursing and Residential 2835 Care. At its heart, the subject matter of this Report is really very simple. We are all living longer, but many of us still need to be cared for as we get older. For some older people that care is given within a family home; for others it is given in some form of ‘care home’, which could be either ‘residential’ or ‘nursing’. The result is an increasing demand for nursing and residential 2840 care – a demand which needs to be met, and which needs to be funded. There is no argument about the figures. The Department of Health and Social Care presented written evidence to the Select Committee that the Island would need over 400 new beds in the next 20 years. That is the equivalent of opening a new care home every 2½ years. The Select Committee has no reason to doubt this assessment. 2845 The question, Mr President, for all of us, is what are we going to do about it? This is not a new question, and it is not unique to the Isle of Man. It is a question which is challenging societies throughout the developed world. There are no easy answers. But there are options which we can consider. As our Report explains, Mr President, we have a mixed economy at the moment. With 2850 residential care, some is provided by the state and some by the private sector. With nursing care, all is provided by the private sector. The Committee favour a continuation of a mixed economy. Part of that mixed economy is that people who can afford it pay for their own nursing or residential care. People who cannot afford it get help from the state through the benefits 2855 system. If they need help from the benefits system, but own a house which no-one lives in any more, the house is taken into account through the ‘property tariff’ system described on pages 98 to 99 of our Report. The person who needs the care is not required to sell their house. But their benefits are reduced. This allows the family of an older person to preserve their inheritance, as long as they can 2860 come up with some other way of funding the older person’s care. As a Select Committee sitting in times of enormous pressure on the public purse, however, we have got to ask whether the ‘property tariff’ system is the best system for the Island. In our first recommendation we say that this should be investigated further. The rest of our recommendations are about building up the capacity of the state. The state 2865 has two responsibilities here: first, to foster a market in which there is sufficient supply to meet demand; and second, to make sure that there is a safety net, so that everyone who needs care can have it. As you will recall, Mr President, this Select Committee came about out of a debate on a motion by former Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Peter Karran. Mr Karran’s idea was that 2870 younger people should start building up a fund now, which would pay out in the future when the time came for them to need nursing and residential care. His original motion was that the Council of Ministers should look at this idea. It was the Hon. Member for Rushen, now Mr Speaker, who moved that the idea go instead to a Select Committee of Tynwald. ______162 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
Then, in its wisdom, put Mr Karran, Mr Watterson and me together on the Committee! I will 2875 confess to this Hon. Court, Mr President, that it was not easy for the three of us to agree on anything. (The Speaker: Hear, hear!) (Laughter) Hon. Members will see, at the very end of the Report, a very rare example of what is called a ‘memorandum of dissent’ appended by one of the members of the Committee, namely Mr Karran. And I think I must speak for Mr Karran with him not being here. This memorandum tells 2880 us that Mr Karran remained firmly wedded to his central idea, the idea of a compulsory contribution scheme for people below a certain age. As a Committee, however, we were unable to agree this. Our reasoning is set out in paragraphs 46 to 48 of our Report. It is very simple. People under 30, or 35, or under 40 – pick any age you like – are already paying for the care of generations 2885 who are older than them. To impose an extra tax on the younger generation would be to make them pay twice and this is just not fair. What we could agree on, though, Mr President, was the second part of Mr Karran’s proposal, which was ‘to build a fund’ for the future costs of long- term care. We considered whether it might be better to extend the use of the existing National Insurance Fund, but we came down clearly in favour of a separate fund. We made this our 2890 recommendation 2. Mr President, I see from the Council of Ministers’ response to our Report that they do not accept recommendation 2 as drafted. They say:
The recommendation cannot be accepted without additional planning work having been carried out first. It is not immediately clear what benefits would be produced by having a separate fund, how the fund would be managed and what rules would govern the use of the fund by people in nursing and residential care.
They therefore propose that the whole question should be put back to the Council of Ministers. And they think they could report on it by July 2017. 2895 Mr President, I recognise that there is work to be done before we actually set up a separate fund, but I am clear on the principle that we definitely need a separate fund. The reasons are set out in the Government’s own evidence to the Committee, as quoted at paragraph 43 of our Report, they say there is a problem balancing competing demands in a single fund. They were right, we agree with them – thus our recommendation. 2900 This is a question of policy, Mr President. This Hon. Court could duck the question and refer it back to the Council of Ministers for another year, but ultimately it will come back here and we will have to answer it sooner or later. I say we should answer it sooner. The funding of nursing and residential care is important. It is expensive. It is inevitable. It needs to be sorted. We should take the first step today and decide, at the very least, on the principle that it needs a separate 2905 fund. Turning to recommendations 3 and 4, these follow on from recommendation 2. Recommendation 3 talks about placing this new fund in the hands of independent trustees. We have not said too much about this in our Report and, to be honest, we did not do much work on the idea. All the recommendation says is that it is worth looking at, and it is. 2910 Recommendation 4 is more significant. This says that an income stream for the new fund should be identified in the context of the wider Social Security reform agenda. I am quite certain that funds will be available from other Social Security and pension reforms which could be channelled into a new nursing and residential care fund. I therefore invite Hon. Members to support this recommendation. 2915 In closing, Mr President, I would like to emphasise again how much I hope this Hon. Court will support all our recommendations, as they appear on the Order Paper. The Select Committee may only have been three people, but we were three people coming from very different perspectives, we had the same technical advice as the Council of Ministers will have, and we did have time to think.
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2920 We did not manage to agree much, but we did agree on these four recommendations, and they would get us on the road to solving this very difficult problem for ourselves and for future generations. I believe that they deserve the support of the Hon. Court. Mr President, I beg to move.
2925 The President: Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr Speaker.
The Speaker: Mr President, I am happy to second the Report and the recommendations before Hon. Members today. The Report reflects an opportunity to take a further step down the road of effective social 2930 care, ensuring that a fund is established to insure Manx people for their residential and nursing care. It is an issue that I and many others feel very strongly about. People should not have to give up their homes to pay for nursing and residential care. However, if we want this as a society, it needs to be funded. Some preliminary work is done 2935 in the Report to estimate the sort of sums that would need to be built up in order to ensure that there was a fund of sufficient size established to cover the costs of nursing and residential care. Gone are the days of policy where we will introduce it now and work out how to pay for it later. Surely our current pensions predicament will have taught us that lesson. So this would have to be a scheme for insured individuals who have contributed into the fund, and would only be 2940 eligible further down the line. It is not therefore a quick-fix. Speaking to Members about the Report and the recommendations, I do accept that the word ‘exploit’ in recommendation 1 is perhaps open to be misconstrued. However, put into the context of the Report it is clear that what we are looking at is more imaginative ways for people to utilise their assets and get an income stream without having to dispose of their home. It is 2945 exploiting assets for the benefit of the individual, but I agree with those who thought that this could have been worded better and I hope this clarification helps. There is no doubt that the way we treat our ageing population will be considered one of the hallmarks of a caring society over the coming generation. We cannot balance our books and continue to increase the scope and cost of services required. We can however better prepare for 2950 the future. So we have suggested a governance model that sits outside of Government funds as it is essential that people trust that the money they are putting aside will be there for them when their time comes, and not for future Governments to dip into for other purposes. Hon. Members, reflecting the contribution of our Committee Chairman, we know this issue 2955 exists, we know this is going to become more acute over time. We can act now and establish some principles or we can wait and we can kick this into the long grass. The decision, Hon. Members, is yours and I hope that you will support the recommendations in our Report.
The President: Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mrs Beecroft. 2960 The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mrs Beecroft): Thank you, Mr President. My hon. colleague, the Chief Minister and former Minister for Health and Social Care, made a number of important points at the June sitting of Tynwald this year and introducing the Council of Ministers’ response to the Report of the Select Committee on the Funding of Nursing and 2965 Residential Care, I will restate some of those points. How to fund care when the number of older people in our community is growing, and how best to divide costs between the public purse and private contributions is clearly a policy area which we must address. Nursing home care is provided only by private sector operators in the Isle of Man and is funded through a combination of Social Security benefits, in particular Income 2970 Support for those who are eligible, and self-funding by those who have sufficient private means.
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Around half of the nursing home residents are state funded and the other half pay for their own care. Private nursing homes are able to charge what the market will bear and it is a matter of highest concern that since May 2015 there have been no nursing homes offering rooms at a rate fully covered by the maximum Social Security benefit which a person can be awarded, 2975 which is just under £820 per week. That position may change and we may be able to secure contracts with private sector operators at this cost. The average cost per week of nursing care provision in the sector is up to £950 per week and is often more. Turning to the motion on the Order Paper, whilst broadly in support of the Committee’s findings and recommendations, I would like to say that using the word ‘exploit’ in 2980 recommendation 1, I agree with Mr Speaker, appears somewhat inappropriate. But until further work and consultation are carried out it is difficult to accept the Committee’s recommendations. Doing so could set us on too narrow a path. Many factors must be brought into consideration, as we determine a fair and affordable set of policies in an area which by its nature are highly emotional. 2985 Therefore I would propose amending the four recommendations by replacing them with this single one:
Amendment To replace recommendations 1 to 4 with the words: ‘That the Council of Ministers should further consider equity release for persons required to contribute to the costs of their care and should investigate the establishment of a nursing and residential care fund, before reporting on: • equity release for persons required to contribute to the costs of their care; • the benefits and costs of the proposed fund; • the funding of the proposed fund; • the governance of the proposed fund; and, • the criteria which could be used to determine who might receive support from the proposed fund. Furthermore, that the Council of Ministers should make an interim report to Tynwald by July 2017 and a final report by July 2018.’
As Hon. Members can understand, this is a complex matter. The Government cannot stand by and do nothing, and acknowledges the work of the Committee. However, it is essential that whatever solution is agreed it must be sustainable, and it must have been thought through very 2990 carefully. This review will be complicated and will involve different parts of Government. If Hon. Members support this amendment to the Committee’s recommendations I would propose giving the Court a detailed update on progress by July 2017, and bringing a final report to Tynwald by July 2018. 2995 Mr President, I beg to move the amendment standing in my name.
The President: Hon. Member for Douglas East, Miss Bettison.
Miss Bettison: Thank you, Mr President. 3000 I would like to support my hon. colleague, the Minister for Health and Social Care, in her amendment to the recommendations. I echo her thanks for the work of the Select Committee in this highly emotive area. We must recognise that improved healthcare and medical treatments are allowing many people to live longer, healthier lives. However, there is an associated requirement for care 3005 services to support them in their later lives. Current projected growth rates predict the over-65s population will grow by 75% by 2031, while the working population will grow by only 2% and the child population by 7%, representing a huge shift in our population profile. ______165 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
The Department’s five-year strategy identified a strategic goal of helping people stay well in their homes and communities, avoiding hospital or residential care whenever possible; and I 3010 believe that this is not simply a strategic priority but a moral obligation to promote independent living for our Island’s older generation. It is an inalienable truth that in order to meet the costs of nursing and residential care we must either contribute more money in an agreed form or find a way to make the current funds go further. As we are currently in a position where there are no nursing home beds available on 3015 the Island at a rate that is fully covered by the maximum Social Security benefit, the consideration of a fund must be a priority. However, this should not be done without due consideration of the impact this could have, the associated costs and the method of collection and distribution of funds. It is vital that when considering establishing a fund for nursing and residential care we are 3020 absolutely clear on these salient points, to ensure that care provision is as fair a process as possible, while allowing the person requiring care and their family or carers to be treated with dignity and respect throughout the whole process. Mr President, I beg to second the amendment standing in my name.
3025 A Member: Mrs Beecroft’s name.
The President: Hon. Member of Council.
Mr Cretney: Yes, just a brief comment, Mr President. 3030 It is my intention to support the amendment, but I just would like to ask if one of the other Ministers is going to speak, and perhaps I should declare an interest as somebody who will be in the over-65s category which is going to be such a burden according to some people in the future. But the question I would like perhaps a Minister or someone to respond to is: the final 3035 sentence in the amendment where it says the Council of Ministers should make the interim report to Tynwald by July 2017 and the final report by July 2018, I just think it is a bit more urgent than that and I just wonder why it was decided to be two years before they get a final report.
3040 The President: Hon. Member, Mr Thomas.
The Minister for Policy and Reform (Mr Thomas): Thank you, Mr President. Just two very brief points. The first one is that I would like to think that the Chair of the Select Committee and the 3045 members of the Select Committee would accept that nursing and residential care is only part of the issue; there is also the whole aspect of care and extra care around living in your own home. And that is part of the reason (A Member: Hear, hear.) why the Council of Ministers needs a couple of years to investigate all these things. I would like to think as well that the Chair and the members of the Committee would accept 3050 that when this work started in November 2013 with the Housing Report, in actual fact all these topics were being looked at together. I am sure the Chair remembers it because he was Minister at the time, who took that housing policy with its associated aspects of residential and nursing care. So that is the first point I would make: that the fund needs to go probably, perhaps beyond exactly what is the subject of this Committee’s investigation and into all those other aspects of 3055 housing and looking after and supporting in their own homes, and the care in the community aspects of the ageing population. The second brief point is that there is a lot of evidence collected by Government Departments which was submitted to the Committee, and I would like to think that the Committee would recognise that is a rich database that needs to be further analysed, beyond ______166 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
3060 the time that the Committee had and given the relationships in the Committee, might not have been properly considered. So it was the view of the Ministers involved in this timescale that we needed at least two years, but will report back fully and by no later than July 2018, with an interim report in July 2017.
3065 The President: Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Ashford.
Mr Ashford: Thank you very much, Mr President. Very briefly, firstly I would like to thank the Committee for the Report that they brought forward. It is very clear there is a lot of work and effort gone into it and, judging by the make-up 3070 of the three Members concerned, it is amazing the Report actually came forward in some respects. I would just like to say I think it is unfortunate that the word ‘exploiting’ was used in recommendation 1, it certainly put me off immediately from that recommendation when I read it, although I do understand where the Committee is coming from. 3075 For me, just following on from the Hon. Member for Douglas Central, Mr Thomas, I think that it does require further looking at and I will be supporting the amendment because I believe that you cannot look at it in isolation, you have got to look at it … about trying to get more people to live at home longer, because that is absolutely crucial. (Mr Cretney: Hear, hear.) That actually is a major issue and I think that does take time and effort to go through, so I am willing to give 3080 Council of Ministers the benefit of the doubt. Like the Hon. Member of Council, Mr Cretney, though, I do think that two years is perhaps pushing the envelope a bit there, to say they will be coming back in July 2018 with the final report. So I would be interested as well to hear why the 2018 deadline has been set for the final report. 3085 In relation to the contents of the Report, the 400 new beds in 20 years is quite a frightening statistic, whichever way you look at it; and of course, if we are waiting to 2018 then we are getting closer and closer to the amount that we require. I also think that from my personal point of view I have always felt there is something slightly wrong with the way that we deal with nursing care. I have never really been comfortable with 3090 the fact that you can have people who work all their lives and work hard, and then – I do not want to say towards the end of their lives – in later life, actually feel like they can end up getting penalised because they require care and they require some intervention from the state, whereas you can have other people who do not work particularly throughout their entire lives, but automatically qualify for that support. I think that is a very difficult argument to grasp, especially 3095 because there are huge funding implications there; but again, I think it is something that we cannot ignore and we need to tackle head on because I really do think that that is the nub of it, and I think that speaking to people outside this Hon. Court, it is something that they are concerned about – especially those who are now moving into that age group. So I will be supporting the amendment and giving Council of Ministers the benefit of the 3100 doubt, but I will be interested to know why the 2018 deadline has been put in.
The President: Hon. Member, Mr Cannan.
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Thank you, Mr President. 3105 Clearly, I rise in support of the amendment. I think there have been some questions raised around timescales. I actually think the timescales are very appropriate in terms of us coming back with an interim report and then seeking a final report. It does say ‘by’ July 2018, it does not necessarily say ‘in’ July 2018, so there is flexibility inbuilt. Should it be the case that an interim report actually turns out to be a final report then all well 3110 and good, but I think it is right that you build some flexibility into what is actually a very complex area. Bear in mind of course, if Tynwald decides to go down this route of funding it then there ______167 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
will be a cost and that cost will be on those members of society who are already hard pressed, already making significant contributions – National Insurance contributions, their taxes, their rates – and we all know the factors that have been affected there. 3115 So there is not just that issue but of course other issues around equity release, how the fund would be administered and whether it is in fact realistic. The cost of nursing and residential care, which has been put down as £950 a week, equating to £52,000 a year, is going to take a significant contribution from an individual throughout their lifetime, just working on a small contribution basis if you were adding a percent or two percent, similar to National Insurance 3120 levels – or less than National Insurance levels – to reach the kind of figures necessary to pay for all their care from such a fund. There would be a lot of questions around the level of funding required and the balance when someone came to be paid out from the fund, as to what level of payment they would be receiving. 3125 All these questions, Mr President, really have to be looked at in some detail. Treasury cannot do this by itself. The Health and Social Care Department will not be able to do this by itself, it will require considerable input across the spectrum and, dare I say it, from the public themselves. So I think the amendment that has come forward is sensible in the circumstances. I think it is sensible that we have a flexible timescale attached to that, and that in the whole we give the 3130 matter some very serious consideration. In principle it certainly sounds a positive way forward, but full of complexities and pitfalls, and we need to be sure that we have addressed those in a measured, calm and sensible manner.
The President: I call on the Hon. Member for Ayre and Michael, Mr Baker. 3135 Mr Baker: Thank you, Mr President. This is a complex and emotive area, as everybody has said, and I am going to be supporting the amendment on the basis that it is so complex and we have one opportunity to get it right. But I think in the meantime, whilst we are allowing the right amount of time for this issue to be 3140 debated and clarified, we need not to miss the obvious point of challenging and questioning why it costs what it does to keep people in this sort of accommodation. I think £52,000 a year was the figure that my right hon. colleague, Mr Cannan, mentioned – that is a huge amount of money in anybody’s book and would actually fund quite a lavish lifestyle in quite a nice hotel. So we have got to actually challenge that and see, are there ways of actually reducing that 3145 cost? And why is it what it is? It seems to come down to the basics of demand and supply on the Island and we are not going to have two years of time, if we leave it two years, in which to address that. In the meantime, I would like to see us encouraging the development of nursing homes on the Island, because it is very clear that there is an excess of demand for these places – and we need to not sit on our hands for two years and ignore the supply side issues. 3150 So I think that is what we need to be doing, whilst we are actually contemplating the funding and the longer-term solution.
The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Coleman.
3155 Mr Coleman: Thank you, Mr President. I will be supporting the amendment, and I would request that those people who are investigating the proposed fund also consider the issue of portability, that is people who have paid on the Island into a fund, who decide to go and live elsewhere. Portability. Thank you, Mr President. 3160 The President: I call on the mover to reply. Mr Robertshaw.
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Mr Robertshaw: Thank you, Mr President. 3165 Can I first of all apologise for daring to use the word ‘exploit’ – I obviously have thoroughly upset the Court. It was not intended, I think, in the way it has been received. I can absolutely assure you of that. I thank Mr Speaker for his detailed comments and contribution in seconding the motion. Right from the outset here, I think it is best if I say to you that I was a little bit put off when I 3170 read the Council of Ministers’ initial response to it; it seemed to me at that stage somewhat negative, and perhaps inclined to try to reverse out of it. However, I now withdraw those thoughts because, quite honestly, I have got to be satisfied with the amendment. I think it is very constructive, very positive and it gives a timescale and a determination to consider a significant number of points. 3175 So, Mr President, I am content with the amendment as it stands, although I do have one point to come back to, and that is the point that Mr Cretney, Member of Council, raised – and that is the issue of urgency. One or two Members raised that and I am somewhat encouraged by the Treasury Minister’s remarks that it may not necessarily be July 2018. Yes, it is complex and it may take that time, but I do hope that everybody involved in this appreciates how incredibly 3180 important it is to grasp this issue. I have confidence that this House will want to do that. Turning to Mr Thomas’s comment, he raises the issue about living at home. That was not within the scope of our work and our duties, and I am sure he appreciates that, but just a quick comment on it. Living at home, quite rightly … and I remember I was involved in this, and subsequently the now Chief Minister articulated the importance of continually emphasising the 3185 importance of living at home, and extending the period of time that people were living some form of independent life. I think it is important to note that the more people live longer and the more of us there are, the more there will be a need in that last six months, nine months, twelve months, two years, for some form of quite intense and expensive nursing care. Mr Ashford also scolded me for the use of the word ‘exploit’ which I have accepted, but he 3190 talked about demographics and that feeling that is out there that we all understand and sympathise with, that why should people have to make these payments? Mr President, I just want the Hon. Court to be fully aware of what is happening here. It is not just the number of older people increasing exponentially, but it is the ratio of older people to younger people. So what we have got here, effectively, is that number of young people and that 3195 number of old people, and it is doing this. So we – and I am speaking, I think, as the oldest person in the House – the older generation, have got to be very careful indeed in the next decade to make sure that we treat our younger generations with great care, not to simply place burdens on them. That really is the essence and I think that was the spirit of what Mr Karran, in the initial proposal for a select committee, was reaching out to more than anything else. 3200 Mr Baker, quite rightly, expresses a degree of concern for the cost of care. Yes, that is a natural instinctive reaction, and again we would all make that, it is a bit of a shock when you think about it costing that much money. But it is often involving nursing care. Again, another word of caution here: if you look at what has happened in the UK, the market exploded, there was massive private investment in nursing homes, as I am sure you will all recall, 3205 anticipating this growth in older people. Then the market started to implode and businesses started to go bust, staff looking after the residents were out of a job, old people in their last years were left with nowhere and were moved around like packages. (Mr Cretney: Hear, hear.) Those businesses that went bust were charging these sorts of figures. This is not cheap, by any stretch of the imagination, and I think we need to take that into account. 3210 I think I will conclude there, Mr President. I am content to accept the new amendment and encourage Hon. Members to support it, with just that caveat that we do treat this as a matter of real urgency. With that, Mr President, I beg to move.
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3215 The President: Hon. Members, the motion is that set out at Item 8. And to it we have an amendment in the name of Hon. Member, Mrs Beecroft. I put the amendment. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it.
A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows:
In the Keys – Ayes 24, Noes 0
FOR AGAINST Mr Ashford None Mr Baker Mrs Beecroft Mr Boot Mrs Caine Mr Callister Mr Cannan Mrs Corlett Mr Cregeen Dr Allinson Mr Harmer Mr Hooper Mr Malarkey Miss Bettison Mr Moorhouse Ms Edge Mr Peake Mr Perkins Mr Quayle Mr Robertshaw Mr Shimmins Mr Skelly Mr Speaker Mr Thomas
The Speaker: Mr President, in the Keys, 24 for, none against.
In the Council – Ayes 7, Noes 0
FOR AGAINST Mr Anderson None Mr Coleman Mr Corkish Mr Cretney Mr Crookall Mr Henderson Mr Turner
3220 The President: In the Council, 7 for and none against. The amendment therefore carries. I put the substantive motion, as amended. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.
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9. Operation of the Jury System – Report and recommendations – Amended motion deferred for combined vote next sitting
The Chairman of the Select Committee on the Operation of the Jury System (Mr Robertshaw) to move:
That the Report of the Select Committee on the Operation of the Jury System [PP No 2016/0100] be received and that the following recommendations be approved –
Recommendation 1 That the option of a judge-only trial on information be allowed to defendants as a right.
Recommendation 2 That the option of a judge-only trial be available where, in the opinion of the court, it is not practicable to empanel a jury.
Recommendation 3 The number of those serving on juries should be increased to 12 for all cases involving a maximum sentence of over ten years.
Recommendation 4 In cases where a twelve-member jury sits, a majority verdict of ten members should be allowed on the same basis as in England and Wales.
Recommendation 5 That the right of the prosecution or defence in criminal trials to peremptory challenges should be abolished.
Recommendation 6 That specific provision be made to allow jurors to obtain counselling in difficult and emotionally draining cases and that any necessary changes to the law relating to non- disclosure be made to enable professional assistance to be given.
Recommendation 7 Recruitment of jurors should be modernised so that the names are collected from a centrally held universal list of citizens, not based on Sheadings, but with safeguards to allow a mixture of jurors from various parts of the Island.
Recommendation 8 Recruitment of jurors should be streamlined to allow early claims for deferral.
Recommendation 9 The Cabinet Office should lead a cross-Government working group to consider, investigate and propose the principles for a centralised Citizen Database as follows: o To consider the whole of the Public Service and identify any services in addition to electoral roll and jury service that could benefit from such a central register; o To consider the method by which the database could be constructed automatically from existing systems to provide as accurate a record as possible; o To consider the legal framework required to facilitate the creation and maintenance of such a database; o To consider the costs and plan, together with the benefits, and report to Tynwald. ______171 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
Recommendation 10 The maximum age for service on a jury should be raised to 75, with an option (as in Scotland) for excusal for those aged 71 and over.
Recommendation 11 Everyone should be eligible to serve on a jury, except those involved in the administration of justice (including police officers) and Members of Tynwald. Other persons with public duties should be allowed excusal for cause.
Recommendation 12 Section 39 of the Employment Act 2006 should be amended to impose a duty on employers to continue to pay those staff who serve as jurors as if it were a normal working day, with safeguards for employers with fewer than 40 employees. The general payment of expenses (other than travel and refreshment) should be abolished and the money saved should be used to compensate properly those whose employer will not pay them and who establish hardship.
Recommendation 13 The Government should engage in a comprehensive overhaul of the 1872 Criminal Code provisions in relation to juries, which should include outlawing conscious use of the internet and social media in a way which undermines the jury process.
[GD No 2016/0072] is relevant to this motion.
The President: We turn now to Item 9, Operation of the Jury System. 3225 I call on the Chairman of the Select Committee, again, the Hon. Member for Douglas East, Mr Robertshaw.
The Chairman of the Select Committee on the Operation of the Jury System (Mr Robertshaw): Thank you again, Mr President. 3230 I rise to move the Report of the Select Committee on the Operation of the Jury System. For absolute clarity, the separation of powers between the Parliament, Executive and Judiciary are clear and profoundly important, but the duty to review the construct and overarching operation of our jury system is the responsibility of this Hon. Court. The management of the court itself, of which the jury is an extremely important part, is of course a 3235 matter entirely for the judiciary. It is very many years indeed since any such review took place and it is long overdue. It became increasingly clear to your Committee during its work that there was much to do, not only to recommend process updates where they had fallen behind but also to recommend future-proofing, where appropriate, to ensure the continuing integrity of our jury system. 3240 I am most grateful to all those who engaged so fully in the Committee’s work in such a positive manner: to our Deemsters who we first met in private, but who then consolidated their thoughts in an on-the-record hearing with the Committee; to the learned Acting Attorney General and the new Director of Public Prosecutions for their helpful contributions; to the Cabinet Office in the form of the Directors of both External Affairs and Government Technology 3245 Services, whose engagement was fulsome and constructive; to the Chief Constable who we heard from in private; and to the Chief Registrar and Information Commissioner, whose advice was invaluable. I wish to thank them all. I would also like to thank my fellow members of the Committee: the Hon. Member for 3250 Douglas South, Mr Malarkey, and the then Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran, who both brought their own important and individual perspectives to our work. Mr President, Hon. Members will appreciate that a very considerable amount of groundwork was covered in the Report so rather than trawl remorselessly through it, and as I believe the ______172 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
evidence speaks clearly and directly to the reader, I will go straight to the 13 recommendations 3255 and, in doing so, would ask that each is voted on separately. (Mr Cretney: Hear, hear.) I intend to limit my remarks to a number of pertinent points on each recommendation, comment where appropriate on the Council of Ministers’ overwhelmingly positive response to the Committee’s work and, where I believe it might be helpful to Hon. Members, emphasise where a number of standalone recommendations actually have a close and symbiotic 3260 relationship with other recommendations. In other words, they work better together. So, turning straight to recommendations 1 and 2, concerning the judge-only trial becoming a defendant’s right or where it is not practical to empanel a jury. The Committee saw recommendation 1 as an exceptional, but important, extension of a defendant’s right; whilst recommendation 2 would have clear relevance, again in very exceptional circumstances such as, 3265 for example, an extremely protracted trial on a complex financial matter that might run for months and months. Here, the recent Moneyval review requires and expects a jurisdiction such as ours to be capable of conducting such a trial. I would ask Hon. Members to bear that in mind. Recommendation 3 proposes that all trials where the maximum prison sentence exceeds 10 years proceed with 12-member juries. The reason the Isle of Man moved from a 12-person 3270 jury to one of only seven in 1939, was intended to be a simple and temporary expedient in the light of the shortage of potential jurors as a consequence of the Second World War. Your Committee’s view here is very straightforward, this 77-year ‘temporary’ measure should end. The very concept of a 12-person jury being retained for very serious offences, related to murder and treason. This suggests that where the stakes are really high then a 12-person jury 3275 continued to be seen as more fitting. Your Committee took the view that, to a contemporary mind, being sent to prison for an extended period is in itself a profound, life-changing experience. But there is a further and very important reason to return to more 12-person juries, and this can be found in recommendation 4 – that of introducing the concept of a majority verdict of 10 3280 where there is a jury of 12; something that is both now almost universal across similar jurisdictions, and which would have the important added benefit of helping to futureproof our jury system against attempts to achieve improper influence. With a jury of seven, as I am sure Members appreciate, it is enough to target one member to reverse a verdict. With a jury of 12 it would require no less than three to be targeted, and that is 3285 a much more difficult task. To quote Deemster Montgomery from his evidence: ‘Well, it is clearly an argument to say that the smaller the jury, the more it is susceptible to influence. I mean that is common sense.’ And we have looming before us the ever-growing influence of the internet and social media. We need to prepare to futureproof ourselves for those sorts of dangers. 3290 The concern your Committee had about the capacity to influence a jury is returned to again in a broader sense in recommendation 13, which focuses on the growing potential to do so – something provided, as I have said, by the exponential increase in the use of the internet and social media. Turning to recommendation 5, the peremptory challenge – i.e. a challenge without good or 3295 sufficient cause. As the law stands now the prosecution has the right to an unlimited number of peremptory challenges, whilst the defence is restricted to three such challenges. Deemster Montgomery put his view very succinctly on the subject when questioned – very succinctly indeed. He said: ‘I do not understand the reason for a peremptory challenge at all. I can honestly say I have no idea of the justification behind it.’ And yet we use it. 3300 He goes on to say: ‘I think it is absolutely vital that members of the public who turn up for jury service, their civic duty, are not challenged and effectively discarded for no good reason. I consider it disrespectful to those members of the public who have turned up.’ The learned Acting Attorney General, in his evidence, also stated that he believed the peremptory challenge to be outdated as a concept; and your Committee wholeheartedly agree.
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3305 Paragraph 74 of our Report indicates that there was general approval for the continuation for challenges based on good and sufficient cause, and on this we also fully concur. Should this Hon. Court support this recommendation and should it thereafter be enacted, then it cannot be at all unreasonable to conclude that it may not be necessary to call forward quite so many potential jurors for each trial in future. 3310 Recommendation 6 is, we believe, self-explanatory. There is a need to create a statutory special exemption for jurors in very difficult and emotionally draining cases to be able to talk to a nominated professional counsellor, should the juror so wish it to be. This would require a change to the law relating to non-disclosure. I take recommendations 7, 8 and 9 together as they are interlinked in a number of ways. It 3315 was a matter of real concern to your Committee that all citizens have to do to avoid their civic duty to serve as a member of jury is to remove themselves from the electoral roll, thus artificially reducing the size of the jury list by many thousands. This of course also impacts heavily on the electoral roll. Combined with the schedule of exemptions as detailed in our Jury Act – which is quite extensive compared to, say, England or Wales – this has led to a significant 3320 hollowing-out of the numbers available for jury service. Consequently your Committee came firmly to the view that this link should be removed, thus ensuring both the electoral roll and the jury list should each enjoy their own integrity. Equally, the Committee took the view that this should not result in more administration – a cost we can ill afford. 3325 In this regard we were grateful for the important contribution made by the Isle of Man Information Commissioner, who has very significant responsibilities with regard to both the Freedom of Information Act and, importantly, the Data Protection Act. As such, he argued that the creation of a single central residents’ database, as already introduced in Jersey in 2012, would need to be defined in legislation. In other words, considered in detail both by the House 3330 of Keys and by Council. In his submission the Information Commissioner is clear that he has been a strong proponent of such a database for a number of years. He makes the point that this may seem at odds with his role but that such a database, if implemented and used correctly with appropriate safeguards and effective sanctions for misuse, could – and this is important – actually improve 3335 the protection of the public’s personal data. He is also at pains to point out that this would not be an identity register. Mr President, if there are any Hon. Members who have not yet had the opportunity to read the Information Commissioner’s submission I would strongly encourage them to do so. It can be found on pages 199 to 202 inclusive, of the Report now before you. To explain how this would 3340 impact on the jury list, the current various inadequacies inherent in the provision of a combined jury list and electoral roll, would be replaced by two unique databases, one for each function but both subordinate to the main database. Recommendation 9 details how the Committee believes this should be pursued, and how it could in future develop further efficiencies in the delivery of Government services. Once 3345 completed, the findings of the cross-Government working party should be submitted to Tynwald. This work would also be required to respond to recommendations 7 and 8. This work is extremely important and the Committee pulls no punches in it commentary. In paragraph 95 we note that in the paper dated 17th December 2015, the Director of Government Technology Services states that those listed eligible for jury service amounted to 31,988, against the 3350 Economic Advisor’s prediction of 52,765. We concluded that this is a cause for grave concern, not least because it undermines both the electoral process and the jury system – two key elements of our public governance. We state that we consider this is one of the most serious failings of the current system and requires urgent remedy. The Committee was therefore much encouraged by the Council of Ministers in 3355 their response, to the effect that the Cabinet Office is on schedule to present a policy proposal to Tynwald next month. We look forward to debating that in more detail. ______174 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
With regard to raising the age of jury service as detailed in recommendation 10, the Committee saw no sense in the current age restriction, which has the effect of removing a significant number of competent and experienced citizens from the role. We propose raising the 3360 age to 75 but, as in Scotland, with an option for excusal for those over 71. We arrived at the conclusion quite unaware that England and Wales have also been deliberating on this very matter, and I note that they will be raising the upper age limit to 75 in a few weeks’ time. Sir Oliver Heald QC, the Justice Minister in the UK, in making this announcement a couple of days ago, said: ‘Trial by jury is a fundamental part of our world-leading justice system and it is 3365 important that our juries reflect today’s society. People are living longer, healthier lives, so it is right that our courts are able to benefit from the wisdom and experience that older people can offer.’ Perhaps one or two of you, bearing in mind I am the oldest Member, might very well be thinking what Mandy Rice-Davies once said: ‘Well, he would say that, wouldn’t he.’ Although your Committee arrived at the same conclusion quite separately, we concur with 3370 the UK’s decision on this. Recommendation 11 deals with the need to heavily revise the ineligibility list and proposes a more limited list of ineligibility criteria. There is ample evidence available from other jurisdictions where such actions were taken some years ago and did not in any way prove contentious. 3375 Recommendation 12 is, in effect, the only point where the response from the Council of Ministers departs materially in its opinion from that of the Select Committee. Namely, that companies with 40 employees or more should continue to pay the juror normally during the period of jury service. Appendix B of the Council of Ministers’ response is, in effect, a comprehensive list of where the law and regulation stands now and suggests that the current 3380 situation, perhaps with a further enhancement of juror fees, is satisfactory. Your Committee does not share this view and believes that Appendix B has somewhat misunderstood the intention behind the recommendation; certainly a well-intentioned contribution, but perhaps looking through the wrong end of the telescope. I was surprised by some of the comments in that response. 3385 So, in answer, there are four groups of people with legitimate interests in this issue: employers, employees, taxpayers and citizens, including the accused. Employers have a right not to be burdened by unreasonable cost; jurors, in the main employees, have the right to fair treatment; taxpayers who have the right to expect the system delivers best value; and finally, all citizens, including the accused, have the right to expect the courts ensure the delivery of a just 3390 outcome. I will now set out the interests of each party within the context of last year’s law court statistics, where there was a total of 10 seven-jury member trials, each lasting an average of 4.3 days and two 12-jury member trials lasting an average of 12.5 days. This gives a total of 601 individual jury person days lost to the economy. 3395 First the employer’s interest: using Government data it is estimated that there were approximately 11 million paid working days in the economy in 2015. In other words, approximately 18,300 paid working days achieved for every one day lost to jury service. In commercial terms this is a negligible risk probably not even worth measuring. As an employer myself, I am confident that this proposal represents an entirely insignificant burden on 3400 employers on the Island. Next the jurors/employee’s interest: to get chosen for jury service is altogether a different kettle of fish, because the impact upon a person is very direct and very immediate. Given that Government statistics advise us that the median daily earnings for an employee in 2015 was £110.16 per day, whilst the return for a full day’s jury service is only £56.00 for, say, a four-day 3405 trial, that person would lose an average £216. Money they will be able to ill afford. Little wonder, then, those on low incomes living week-to-week would not wish to serve on a jury. There is a troubling truth here: the less well-off you are the more likely you are to be detrimentally impacted by jury service. This simply cannot be right. ______175 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
Third, the interest of the taxpayer: the Committee believes that this interest would be best 3410 served if employers continued to pay their staff if they employed more than 40 employees, thus giving the courts opportunity to direct additional funding to the remainder of the jurors who lose their earnings, bringing their daily juror payments much closer to the median daily rate of pay. In other words, the taxpayer’s funds would be directed more effectively to cover cases of hardship. In this regard I am particularly aware that those who are self-employed need special 3415 attention to alleviate the financial sacrifice and business interruption incurred in serving on a jury. Finally, the citizen’s and the accused’s interest: we all need the courts to deliver justice. Should we be comfortable with a situation where a juror living on a week-to-week basis might very understandably wish to see a prompt conclusion to a trial in order that they might return to 3420 work quickly? That is a reasonable question and I think the answer is obvious. We urgently need to ensure that jurors are not distracted by considerations of personal finance when deciding on issues of guilt or innocence. In conclusion, the Committee stands firm behind recommendation 12 believing it represents incredibly low risk for employers, delivers fairness to the juror, maximises the interests of the 3425 citizen and the courts in the delivery of justice, and protects the value for money interest of the taxpayer. I would respectfully ask that the Council of Ministers reconsiders their support for Appendix B and for this Hon. Court to support that recommendation. Finally, you will be pleased to hear, Mr President, to recommendation 13. The support of the Council of Ministers for the need for a comprehensive review of the 1872 Criminal Code 3430 provisions in relation to juries is appreciated; but it is hoped that, in due course, and in acknowledgement of the pressure on the legal drafting service which we discussed early today, this does not result in too protracted a process. The world is a dramatically changing place and it is imperative that our justice system is periodically reviewed in order that it keeps up. 3435 In closing, Mr President, I also wish to thank the Clerk of Tynwald for his work in support of the Committee’s endeavours. He was thoroughly assiduous in his duties throughout and it would be wrong for this to go without mention. Thank you. Mr President, I beg to move.
3440 The President: The Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mr Malarkey.
The Minister for Home Affairs (Mr Malarkey): I beg to second and reserve my remarks, Mr President, please.
3445 The President: The Hon. Member for Middle, Chief Minister.
The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): Thank you, Mr President. I thank the Hon. Member for Douglas East, as Chairman of the Select Committee, for the work of the Committee. 3450 The Council of Ministers welcomes the evidence and recommendations laid out within the Report. The jury is a fundamental part of the criminal justice system. A jury’s role helps to uphold Article 6 of the European Convention of Human Rights, the Right to a Fair Trial. My thanks should also be placed on record to the Departments which have contributed to the evidence within the Report, and the drawing together of the Government response. 3455 Council of Ministers has reviewed the Report and is in broad agreement with the majority of recommendations. As we have heard from our hon. colleague, Mr Robertshaw, the Committee has reviewed and reported on a wide range of policy areas, from handling unusually difficult cases to the composition of the jury, to guidance provided to jurors and the system of summoning jurors.
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3460 Mr President, in seeking to agree the recommendations within the Report, we must be mindful of the need to further consider the wider legislative and practical implications. Council supports recommendations 1 and 2, noting that in practice it is unlikely that a defendant would chose a judge-only trial on information. Further consideration will need to be given to the provision of an adequate and relevant structure to be able to appeal against a 3465 judge-only trial decision. In relation to recommendation 3, Council supports this in principle. However, in due course the Department of Home Affairs will need to identify those offences where the maximum sentence is over 10 years, and consider whether it would be appropriate to empower the convening of a 12-person jury in respect of the trial of these offences. 3470 Council supports Recommendation 4, subject to changes in any relevant legislation to enable a majority verdict, noting that this is a major change to our current jury system where a unanimous verdict must be reached. In supporting Recommendation 5, Council agrees that ‘challenges for cause’ should remain as part of the procedure for choosing a jury. However, the Department of Home Affairs will need to 3475 undertake a review of legislation, to either include the abolition of peremptory challenges in the proposed Sentencing and Offender Management Bill, or to amend sections of the Jury Act 1980. Council acknowledges and sympathises with the case of jurors sitting on difficult and emotionally sensitive cases where they may feel that support through counselling would be beneficial. Noting that any member of a jury could seek counselling outside of any current or 3480 future statutory provision and that the role of the counsellor is to uphold confidentiality, the Department of Home Affairs will consider whether it is necessary to progress legislative change in this matter. Council therefore supports recommendation 6. Recommendations 7, 8 and 9 focus on the potential reform of recruitment and summoning of jurors, which Council supports. At the core of these recommendations is the principle of a single 3485 citizen database for the population of the Island. Hon. Members will note that Cabinet Office will bring a policy proposal to Tynwald for approval in December 2016, setting out the steps toward the approach for a single citizen database, including initial considerations relating to technology, legislation and consultation. Council supports recommendations 10 and 11, subject to review of the eligibility and 3490 maximum age criteria to serve on a jury, and any required changes to legislation. In relation to recommendation 12, Council has agreed to reject this recommendation and will not be seeking to move an amendment. Within the debate today, my hon. colleague, Mr Skelly, Minister of Economic Development, will explain why amending Section 39 of the Employment Act 2006 to impose a duty on employers to pay staff and to abolish the general payment of 3495 expenses, is not considered to be in the best interests of the operation of the jury system. In supporting recommendation 13, Council asks that the Department of Home Affairs undertakes a review as soon as is practicable, of the 1872 Criminal Code provisions, following the completion of the reform of the criminal justice process. The Report concludes that our Island’s criminal justice system needs to be robust and 3500 sufficiently flexible to adapt to fast-changing circumstances. I am sure that the Court would agree. Thank you, Mr President.
The President: The Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr Speaker. 3505 The Speaker: Thank you, Mr President. I rise as someone who, for the last five years, has been Minister for Home Affairs and has, I suppose, some experience of some of the strengths and weaknesses in the system. And I rise in general to support most of the recommendations proposed in the Report. Given the response of 3510 the Council of Ministers, I do not anticipate dwelling on the areas that I agree with.
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I was, however, disappointed that the Committee had completely ignored the evidence that I had provided to them, and had not even taken the trouble to either refute or challenge it either in the Report or via oral evidence. In fact that prompted me to then read the other oral evidence that was given in wondering why and the more I read it, especially down to around pages 44 3515 onwards of the Report and the evidence given, the more it moved me to wonder if the evidence that was being sought was being sought in order to support the conclusions that had already been reached by the Committee, and had actually been put forward by the Chairman in moving the Committee. So those who have looked beyond just the text of the Report and into the evidence, will 3520 actually see in the history of our Island that 12-man juries only came about during the anglicisation of the Manx justice system in the late 19th century. Given that one of the principal arguments is moving it away from the way that it was done as a change in 1939, if you go back before the 1860s you will find that far smaller juries were the norm on the Island. I think the problem is that we are conflating two problems here. We are conflating the size of 3525 the jury with reaching a verdict that does not have to be unanimous, and I think that is the problem that has led to this increase. I think that the increase to a 12-man jury is not actually going to be very helpful. It will lead to unnecessary expense and I do not believe it will be of any benefit to the courts of justice. Don’t get me wrong, in terms of the other side of this I would be happy to see a six-one 3530 verdict, or possibly a five-two at a push, to counter concerns of juror manipulation. But we have really not had … and I think in the last five to 10 years the Department could only think of two cases which they felt had been impacted by the lack of a unanimous decision, but would probably have gone differently had one voter gone the other way. We are also being presented with a picture that describes recommendation 12 as being the 3535 norm. Well, it might be in the British Isles but that is not the case in other jurisdictions around the world, and that was also given in evidence that seems to have been mislaid. Canadian provinces have six, Hong Kong has seven-person juries, Malta has nine-person juries. So we do not particularly need to slavishly follow the UK in this matter and follow this expensive path, a path that, in evidence from the Chief Registrar, would demonstrate that around 100 jurors could 3540 be required to be called, trebling the cost of summoning a jury. And for what benefit? The other recommendation that gives me concern is recommendation 9 regarding a centralised citizen database. I was surprised to see something so wide ranging in a report on the jury system. If this is something that Council of Ministers wishes to pursue, and the response here says that it will be brought towards December Tynwald, then I would suggest that needs to 3545 come back with specific proposals. It is certainly something that makes me nervous, I am sure it will make other Members nervous, and it is certainly something that citizens outside of this Chamber will be nervous about. I do not think this is the appropriate place to be debating the principle of a centralised citizen database and the wide ramifications that it has, for a whole host of reasons – one very 3550 small part of which is the jury system. So, on that basis I will not be supporting Recommendation 9 today. I do have an open mind about whether I would support it in light of a far more detailed proposal from Council of Ministers in due course, but I want to put on record my nervousness about this. So I would caution Hon. Members that I believe that recommendation 3 is unnecessary, 3555 based on the economics of the current situation and to no benefit. And I would suggest that we approach recommendation 9 with a great degree of caution. But with that, I am happy to support the other recommendations in the Report.
The President: The Hon. Member for Garff, Mrs Caine. 3560 Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President.
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There are four recommendations in this Report that I am afraid I do not support, but I would welcome the hon. mover’s response to the following points. On recommendation 3, I question why the Committee found in favour of increasing the 3565 number of jurors to 12, like Mr Speaker. But given the other opinions expressed in submissions from the learned Acting Attorney General, advocates and jurors, all in support of the Island continuing with seven-member jurors, it is not apparent to me why the Committee felt there was a pressing need to review the operation of the jury system. Indeed, the Chairman of the Isle of Man Law Society asked, ‘Why change something that is working fine as it is?’ A Deemster 3570 already has the flexibility to direct that a person is tried by a jury of 12 persons if he deems the gravity of the case merits that. So the consensus seems to be – on reading all the submissions – that seven-member juries should be retained. On recommendation 4, again, I do not understand the basis for this recommendation when the submissions support the retention of unanimous verdicts. Indeed the learned Acting 3575 Attorney General stated, ‘Majority verdicts are a very unhealthy way to administer justice.’ This is supported by the advocates who gave evidence. Juries in the Isle of Man have failed to reach a unanimous verdict in so few cases – I think it was four trials in the past seven years – that it just does not seem necessary. At the conclusion of a trial if a unanimous verdict cannot be reached it would suggest that the prosecution had not convinced the jury of the defendant’s guilt beyond 3580 all reasonable doubt. And for that reason I do not support this recommendation. Recommendation 9: I have serious concerns about a centralised citizen database. However, my main reason for not supporting this recommendation is that the original remit of this Committee was:
… to consider the operation of the jury system on the Isle of Man.
That was the limit of the Committee’s enquiry. The wider operation of public services has 3585 nothing to do with that original Tynwald remit and I object to a major overarching new policy being sneaked in through the back door of a Select Committee report. A citizen database is not just being proposed to be set up for the improvement of jury selection, it seems an insidious way of keeping track of all our citizens because that is somehow considered to be better for us all. 3590 Surely that is taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut. The Report calls the database a way to ensure thousands of jury service dodgers are listed and available for call up. What about existing legislation that provides for people to be prosecuted for failing to register? I have never heard of a single prosecution of someone failing to register on the electoral role. Returning to recommendation 9, which is before us, it states:
The Cabinet Office should lead a cross-Government working group to consider, investigate and propose the principles for a centralised Citizen Database as follows: o To consider the whole of the Public Service and identify any services in addition to electoral roll and jury service that could benefit from such a central register;
3595 This goes far beyond the remit, in my view, that Tynwald gave to the Committee. There is a big difference between a single list of people eligible for jury service and an overarching centralised citizen database. I use the term ‘overarching’ because that is how a senior civil servant described the proposal in her evidence in the Report. Where is the justification in the actual Report for something much more expansive and potentially intrusive than a single list of 3600 names and addresses? There is not apparent need, so why are we being asked to consider more than a centrally held universal list of citizens that is supported in recommendation 7 of the Report? The Committee clearly did not recollect that we already have the Residence Act 2001 which I think provides for the same idea – a name and address register. That is something the 3605 Committee appears to have completely ignored.
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If there are concerns in the Island over the difficulty in recruiting jurors, then we have a readymade, on-the-shelf piece of bespoke legislation that will do the job for us. Not only that but it clearly limits the role of the register to its sole purpose – a list of residents in the Isle of Man. 3610 Another point I wish to raise is: where is the mandate from my hon. colleagues? To my knowledge not one of us had this proposal in our manifestos – not even the Hon. Member for Douglas East, Mr Robertshaw. This is the first test of our mettle and we are being asked to effectively rubber stamp a proposal on which the public have not been consulted. There will be a real concern about privacy in our Island with a scheme like a centralised 3615 citizen database, indeed I think there is already a petition that has been emailed to most of us. But before even considering approving such a proposal I would want to see the exact details for who would see what, and where it would be seen. Also, how much will it cost? Where is the cost benefit analysis that conclusively proves it would provide promised benefits? The main question, though, is how this is being introduced. It was my understanding that the 3620 working practice of Tynwald, when Government has a new proposal, is that we are properly briefed in the Barrool Suite. If it is new legislation then the public will have had their say via a public consultation. We will, at least, have some idea of what our constituents think. But in this case we are being asked to approve the principle of a centralised citizen database with no detail as to how overarching it may become. 3625 Also, the public have form in opposing these types of schemes. I am aware that back in 2010 the public rejected a proposal for a children database. How do you think they are going to view an overarching centralised citizen database? The concern is likely to be that Government will accumulate all the personal information currently held discretely in different places and when that happens it may be misused, abused or 3630 even lost. We have to act to ensure that our constituents are treated with respect. Of all the concerns I could raise about a centralised citizen database the one I am most worried about is people losing confidence in our public services because they fear, or perceive, that their information may be shared without their consent. 3635 It is not just a matter of who is allowed to see what electronically. It is a brutal fact that people gossip about work. We are all aware of our ‘skeet’ culture but it can go too far and it can damage people. That is why centralising data and sharing it widely is not the way to go. It is not safe. There is also the fear that a centralised citizen database would be a target for hackers. Just look at Tesco Bank which had thousands of accounts hacked just this month. If bank data is not 3640 safe then neither is Government data completely safe. Then there is the issue of Human Rights. Article 8 of the Human Rights Act says that we all have a ‘right to respect for private and family life’. A centralised citizen database is an obvious candidate for testing against this fundamental right. Recently in Scotland a vast data-gathering system harvesting children’s information was set 3645 up. Family records, extended family medical records, school records – the lot – was liberally shared amongst public authorities. The Scottish Government was then taken to court by its own people who were desperate to stop it. They were backed by a wealthy charity, the Christian Institute. The United Kingdom Supreme Court backed the charity. The judgment was landmark. The Scottish Government lost, they had to shut down their data-gathering scheme and, just last 3650 week, Scottish taxpayers were ordered by the Supreme Court to pay half a million pounds for both their legal costs and those of the appellants. The Court judged that the data-sharing scheme breached not the Data Protection Act but the Human Rights Act itself. So with this in mind I would ask who in Government assesses schemes like these before they 3655 are presented to Tynwald? Is there anyone who runs their eye over new policy to ensure that it will withstand legal challenge? We must be certain that an Isle of Man centralised citizen
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database will not fall foul of this judgment before this Hon. Court can give approval to any detailed scheme that is presented to us. Today we are being asked to support a recommendation for an overarching citizen database 3660 for potentially the whole of the public service and we are told that the Council of Ministers will flesh out the policy in December. I do not remember this Hon. Court approving the idea in principle, as I said. On the contrary, Mr President, a previous Government determined not to support a childcare database in 2010. They did that due to public opposition. This is our first proper Tynwald and we are being asked to go against the grain and introduce 3665 something which will be most unpopular, will have potentially serious adverse consequences, may face legal challenges, may be very expensive, might get hacked and potentially put the privacy of our electorate at risk. In my view if we approve recommendation 7 we have no need to support recommendation 9. It does not belong in a report on the jury system. I will not be supporting it and I would urge 3670 other Members also to oppose it. If it has merit it should come back as a Government policy but it should not receive approval today. Finally, on recommendation 12, the fairest option, I feel, would be for the Government to continue to pay all jurors but at a more realistic rate to compensate those who are out of pocket. But that is not the Committee’s recommendation. Is it any wonder so many people try to 3675 dodge jury service when the inconvenience and disruption to their employment and personal life is not fairly compensated, and when they even have to pay for basic refreshments such as a cup of tea while deliberating? (A Member: Hear, hear.) I do not feel that this recommendation has addressed the issue and cannot support it. Thank you, Mr President. 3680 Two Members: Hear, hear.
The President: The Hon. Member for Douglas South, Miss Bettison.
3685 A Member: East.
The President: Douglas East, I beg your pardon. (Laughter)
Miss Bettison: Thank you, Mr President. 3690 I would echo the concerns held by my hon. colleague surrounding a centralised citizen database and feel this is not something that should be established on the premise of jury service; but, if necessary, must be considered in a far broader context and must fully address the justified data protection concerns that go hand in hand with this. I look forward to hearing the proposals surrounding this in the December sitting of this Hon. 3695 Court. I would also seek further clarification on the persons with public duties that would be allowed excusal for cause. In recommendation 11 it is currently unclear to me whether frontline service staff, including professions such as paramedics, social workers, nurses and doctors would be able to gain exemption from jury service. I fear this would have a substantial impact on service provision in 3700 many areas where we are already struggling to provide a fully staffed service and have a heavy reliance on agency staff. I would recommend consideration be given to an exemption for frontline staff who, at the given time, are on the recognised skills shortage list, to ensure that we do not increase the burden on these already stretched services. We must also recognise the financial burden this places on departmental budgets through engagement of expensive agency 3705 staff to cover the short-term vacancy that jury service creates. Thank you.
The President: The Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr Skelly. ______181 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
The Minister for Economic Development (Mr Skelly): Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. 3710 I believe the Chief Minister has already stated Council’s position on all the recommendations, and with regard to recommendation 12 I would just like to say a few words. It is good to hear Members have read this Report in its entirety and you will hopefully have picked up DED’s response in pages 14-19. We effectively wish to oppose this recommendation for the reasons following: we do not believe that it is fair to require employers to pay their staff 3715 for attending jury service and also to highlight there has been no consultation on the matter. In addition, the suggested solution would make self-employed people worse off under the present system and it would also not help those with caring responsibilities. Thirdly, setting up some kind of rebate system for small employers would also remove some of the savings to Government which could otherwise be expected. It would also require some administrative 3720 resource. Finally, the proposal to compensate people whose employer will not pay them is quite odd. Either the employer has a statutory responsibility to pay employees or they do not. And if they do not have a responsibility of pay then if they fail to pay their employees they should be able to claim payment from the Employment Tribunal in the same way as other debts are recovered. 3725 Therefore, Eaghtyrane, we believe in Economic Development that the best option is, as already stated, to continue to pay jurors but to enhance the rates, as contained within the Order of 2003 for the Order and the Scheme. Therefore, Hon. Members, I urge you to reject recommendation 12.
3730 The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Turner.
Mr Turner: Thank you, Mr President. My comments relate to recommendation 9. The Speaker said he was nervous; I am more suspicious about the item. And I must congratulate the Hon. Member, Mrs Caine, for an 3735 excellent speech (A Member: Hear, hear.) highlighting all the pitfalls and some of the issues with this and I would concur with all of her comments. Of course, it has already been said this was to consider the operation of the jury service and what we have here is the old political tactic being used to slip something else in under the radar in the hope that maybe we will not spot it. Well, I think judging by the debate – 3740 A Member: The radar is working!
Mr Turner: – the radar, unlike the one at the Airport, is working! (Laughter) And the cat is well and truly out of the bag here. 3745 I think this is highly significant because it does go well beyond the issue of the operation of the jury system, this proposal to create the overarching citizen database. It has already been said that Scotland had a case and it was judged that they had to abandon it, so we must take heed of the warnings that are out there before we start engaging on processes of work that really may not come to anything, particularly with something so significant. 3750 Of course, a database such as this would be meat and drink to various officials in Departments for sharing information. At the last sitting I had questions about how information was shared in cross-Government meetings, and an example was used where operators of sports facilities were involved in meetings where they were discussing rent arrears and potentially giving tenants notice to quit. So information sharing has to be dealt with extremely carefully. I 3755 think when we get things like what is potentially going to be proposed, and the Chief Minister has said they are drawing up plans, I think we should be very cautious about this. Again, it was already mentioned, I think it was Mrs Caine who also mentioned that not one of the manifestos of the candidates in the recent election mentioned anything like a centralised database; and, of course, it was not widely aware outside of this Court that this was being 3760 mooted. No doubt the public will be very concerned, as we had with the children’s database a ______182 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
couple of years ago. There are also the other issues of what it would mean to data hacking and the fact that some information could be going across Departments that it really should not be. So, I would really urge Members, in particular, to reject recommendation 9 from this particular debate. Granted, we are hearing that the plans are coming forward in another way, 3765 we can then consider that. I am still very suspicious of such plans, but nevertheless we will see the detail in that because this is a very, almost broad brush approach – ‘Let’s get it through, let’s sneak it through’ – buried here in a report that is supposed to be the operation of the jury service. Again, I am not going to go into great detail because a lot of it has already been said, but I 3770 would like to endorse the problem that we seem to have with regard to employers, employees and who actually foots the bill? Clearly it is a problem for both employers and employees. A lot of employers cannot afford to have staff out, cannot afford to replace them and, granted, employees cannot afford to not be paid. So there is this problem where it puts people off getting involved in the jury system. 3775 I am not altogether content with the response from the Minister for Economic Development, saying, ‘Well they can go off to the Employment Tribunal’. And I am not going to widen the debate, Mr President, but when we start looking into issues such as the differences in rights between employers and employees, to simply send them off to the Employment Tribunal when particularly smaller businesses may not be able to afford to have staff – particularly when they 3780 could be key members of staff, for example – it does cause great problems. So I am not entirely content with the response from the Minister for Economic Development and I hope that maybe they would put this as one of the things they are going to look at. Jury service is always a bone of contention with a lot of people; they will do a lot of things to try to get out of doing it. 3785 We have a set of recommendations here which we are going to be voting on shortly, but I would urge Hon. Members, please, to reject number 9 – this overarching citizen database – and remember that, in the words of that wonderful former Prime Minister, Mrs Thatcher, ‘The state should be servant and not master’. Thank you, Mr President. 3790 The President: Hon. Member for Douglas Central, Mrs Corlett.
Mr Anderson: Tongue in cheek …
3795 Mrs Corlett: Thank you, Mr President. I rise to voice my concerns on recommendation 4, majority verdicts. We are asked to approve this recommendation in order to tackle the potential problem of interference with jury members through organised crime gangs or social media and, whilst the Committee acknowledge that there is little or no evidence of this happening in the past, they 3800 feel it is prudent to make provision to prevent it from happening in the future. I would argue that this measure does not prevent it; it merely makes concession to it. It is a crime to try to influence a jury during a trial and I feel we should be dealing with it from this angle as weakening the verdict, I would suggest, is not the way forward. It is almost 50 years since England decided to accept a majority verdict and we have, up to 3805 now, not followed suit. I find little evidence or support in this Report to change our stance now. A verdict beyond all reasonable doubt is what a jury is tasked with. You cannot quantify reasonable doubt. I believe that is down to the individual. But by introducing a majority verdict, we are actually saying reasonable doubt can be measured by up to 16.67%. This is a significant figure and, to put it into context, many of us are here today making this decision with less of a 3810 percentage of support from the public we represent. All I ask is that Hon. Members please consider this carefully, as once it is gone we lose our now almost unique system of deciding innocence or guilt unanimously. There are areas of the ______183 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
system that we need to bring up to date, but we should not throw the baby out with the bathwater. 3815 The President: Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Hooper.
Mr Hooper: Thank you, Mr President. There are only two recommendations I wish to speak to in this Report. 3820 Firstly, recommendation 12. I agree with the comments made by the Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr Skelly, in that this recommendation could place an undue burden on employers and also unfairly disadvantage those who are self-employed, who have the responsibility of caring for others. I did have quite a bit more to say but the Hon. Member has summed it up quite nicely, so I will not bore you by repeating things. I would support consultation with the public 3825 and with employers on this matter if it was the preferred route. However, I cannot support the recommendation as it stands. Secondly, recommendation 9. I find jury selection an extremely spurious reason to begin to argue in favour of a centralised citizen database. Like the Hon. Member for Garff, I feel this recommendation goes far beyond the scope of the Committee’s remit. It is a massive leap from 3830 a single all-Island jury list to a comprehensive database of all citizens for use across Government and it is almost as if the facts of the case have been moulded to fit a predetermined outcome. I am reassured that Mr Speaker and the Hon. Member of Council, Mr Turner, have also commented on this as it makes me feel a little bit less paranoid. It is interesting that the Committee recommendation almost reproduces verbatim the 3835 recommendations included in the evidence submitted by the Cabinet Office, which can be found at page 881 of the Report. I wonder if this recommendation originated after consideration of all the evidence or if it was already in the minds of the Committee members before any evidence was submitted. To borrow a phrase from the Hon. Member for Douglas Central, this feels more like policy-based evidence-making than evidence-based policymaking. (A Member: Hear, hear.) 3840 A centralised citizen database is a huge issue – much larger than a report on the operation of the jury system, and if it is to be considered at all then, like Mr Speaker, I concur that it should be considered separately and independently of any other items. I am concerned that this issue has been brought to Tynwald and to the public in this manner. There may be much in favour of such a database, but I feel that debate is better placed for another time when Tynwald can be 3845 presented with a detailed policy proposal and any associated background information. There are so many potential repercussions from this recommendation and the ultimate consequences of approving it today are unknowable. I would strongly urge Hon. Members to vote against this recommendation at this time and to wait until this Court can be provided with sufficient information and evidence on which to base our decision. Let us not rush headlong into 3850 the unknown simply because it is an option placed before us.
The President: Hon. Member for Douglas Central, Mr Thomas.
The Minister for Policy and Reform (Mr Thomas): Thank you, Mr President. 3855 I will just speak to recommendation 9. Obviously, I cannot speak to the intentions and whether they were mischievous or not for the Committee or its Chair in respect of recommendation 9. I think I can speak with a degree of certainty for the motives of the Cabinet Office in making the submission to the Select Committee and also in terms of exactly what is on the paper in front of you, which is the debate that we are 3860 having today. So what it says in recommendation 9 is that, ‘The Cabinet Office should lead a cross- Government working group to consider, investigate and propose …’ it does not say it has decided anything. Lots of straw men have been created in this debate: the database there, which will be misused, abused or lost; the fact that every database in the whole of Government ______184 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
3865 will come together into one place. None of those things are actually under discussion today. There is simply a recommendation there that the Cabinet Office should, ‘lead a cross- Government working group to consider, investigate and propose …’ In actual fact, however the vote goes today, I would hope that the Cabinet Office will continue to consider, investigate and propose. And we have heard from the Chief Minister today 3870 it is likely to come back with a report, very wisely requested by the Hon. Member for Ramsey just now, Mr Hooper, with the merits and demerits of all the situation. At this stage, just for the benefits of clarity, I think there is an ambiguity in the language that is being used – perhaps deliberately, perhaps not, and I would like to think it was not, it was just a mishap of misuse of language – but we have gone everywhere from a centralised citizen 3875 database to a single citizen database to a central register, to just a list. As I understand it, what we are talking about here is a report of a select committee which used confusing language, perhaps, which has been amplified by a bit of confusing language, but there has definitely been selective representation of what was said in the Select Committee. It is not the case that the officers of the Cabinet Office – if you read the whole transcript of 3880 Hansard – only said the things that it is written that they said. They also talked about all the difficulties and all the issues that have been raised today in this debate. So my main point is I do actually hope that Members of this Hon. Court will see the recommendation for what it is, which is that it is about saying that Government should at least consider, investigate and propose this database. A vote today for recommendation 9 is not a 3885 decision in any way about this database. It is very valuable that we have had this discussion without the facts and without the proposal, (Interjection by Mr Turner) but let’s wait until next month. If it comes back next month that is solely a decision still for the Council of Ministers; but it sounds like, from what the Chief Minister said, that everything is still on track for this debate to take place again next month. But even next month we will not be voting or debating even the 3890 creation of a database. It sounds like we will just be voting on giving agreement to investigate all these very serious issues that have actually been raised quite properly, and perhaps not properly, in the course of this debate which was about a Select Committee Report on the jury service, with that recommendation that it might help jury lists to have Government investigate the issues before making a proposal. 3895 The President: Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Ashford.
Mr Ashford: Thank you, Mr President. It follows on very nicely from what the Hon. Member for Douglas Central, Mr Thomas, has 3900 just said. In relation to recommendation 9, Mr President, I think there is an awful lot of carts being put before horses here (A Member: Hear, hear.) in relation to this recommendation. The words I have heard so far are ‘comprehensive’ and ‘all-encompassing’. There is nothing in the recommendation, Mr President, that actually says what would go into a centralised citizen database. There is nothing being said that it is going to have all these reams of information, it is 3905 going to be able to be hacked into externally, we are going to have everyone’s details. I think a lot of people are putting the cart before the horse here before anything has come forward. There have been quite a few people who have said as well among Hon. Members that recommendation 7 is fine but recommendation 9 is not. For me, recommendation 9 logically follows on from recommendation 7, because if you are going to look to create a universal list for 3910 jurors what recommendation 9 is doing is saying see if that list can be put to other uses or is required for other uses. At the end of the day, Mr President, we keep talking, both here in this Hon. Court and in another place, about joined-up Government. It is not much of a joined-up Government if we are going to say we are going to create a universal list for jurors but we are not going to also say if 3915 we need the universal list for anything else and we can use the same thing.
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Also there has been mention of the Scottish judgment, of which I am aware, and saying that if this goes forward we could have a similar situation. But I would just point out to Hon. Members, Mr President, that it actually states in the recommendation, ‘to consider the legal framework required to facilitate the creation and maintenance of such a database’. So the legal 3920 framework around it is also going to be looked at. But I think a lot of Hon. Members seem to be jumping to a conclusion as to what this database is going to be. To my mind, in some ways Government already has a centralised database. It is called the Income Tax database, (A Member: Hear, hear.) and I do not see a lot of people jumping up and down complaining about that. 3925 Mr Turner: Because no one has access to it.
Mr Ashford: And the reason being because it has got the appropriate legal safeguards in place, as the Hon. Member of Council, Mr Turner, has actually quite rightly just said. But why 3930 Members are assuming that anything that comes forward from this recommendation will not have the appropriate legal safeguards in place, I am not certain. That seems to be an assumption that is being made. So, again, I do not think recommendation 9 should be being read the way it is by some Hon. Members – that this is automatically going to mean you are supporting a centralised citizen 3935 database with no further information. There is more information coming back and I think it does sit well in the Report, because I think it leads directly on from recommendation 7 and actually, compared to some of the criticisms I have given in the past, it actually shows a bit of joined-up Government.
3940 The President: Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mr Malarkey.
The Minister for Home Affairs (Mr Malarkey): Thank you, Mr President. I am absolutely flabbergasted! (Laughter and interjections) I cannot believe I actually sat on a Committee and we were debating the same thing which is in this Report! Conspiracies! 3945 Predetermined positions! Even Mr Speaker seemed to think the Committee had a predetermined position before we even started the Report. Can I state here and now this was a very interesting Select Committee to sit on and I went in with an extremely open mind. I had not any idea or judgement one way or the other. I listened to the evidence given and I think the Committee came up with a pretty good Report. There is no 3950 doubt about it, it needs reforming because we are so far behind the times, going forward we really do need to do something. I do not really know where to start. Let me get the easy one out of the way: recommendation 12, about the payment. I stand with the Council on this, having spoken to Mr Skelly and understanding the position of the problems that could come forward; also speaking to Treasury 3955 with regard to civil servants who sit on jury services, having to pay the money back to Government anyway. I actually do not agree with number 12 and I will be going with Council on number 12 and not supporting it. But as for the rest of them … Majority verdicts: let’s make it very clear – and Mrs Corlett was really worried about throwing babies out with the bath water on this one. The reason the 3960 Committee wanted to bring forward majority verdicts was for high intense crimes. Times are changing. I have got reports here from the Chief Constable that tell me how times are changing. Crime is moving forward with regard to drug trafficking, fraud – these are big complicated, complex trials. We may not have jury tampering now. We may have got away with it for years and years, but 3965 times are changing. With the system we have at the moment, with just seven persons sitting on a jury, and if one person is actually nobbled on the jury – and it is quite easy to do and it could be for a reason that there is a big drugs master that we have got from the other side coming, we ______186 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
have got them on trial in the Isle of Man and they start to nobble jury service people, or one person. The Committee considered that if it was a 12-person jury you would have to actually get 3970 to three members of that jury before you would actually offset the trial in any way. That is why we set it to be on trials where it was 10 years or over – what the sentencing could be. We do not want to change the present seven-jury system; that can stay. We have not said move everything. Seven juries will stay and the normal trials will go on. But we are trying to futureproof the jury service and this is what we were looking at: what was coming forward for 3975 the future. We certainly did not have any pre-set positions on this going forward. I think the one that has really got the hare out of the trap and got the dogs going in different directions is number 9, because somebody … and I do apologise, was it our Clerk or us? We used that horrible word ‘database’. And as soon as you use the word ‘database’, Mr President, well, we have … And with the greatest respect for the Member for Garff, your speech was very good 3980 but I also heard half of that speech on a radio interview the other day from a certain gentleman who is in your constituency, who always sets the hare running out the trap every time somebody mentions the word ‘database’. Yes, I apologise on behalf of the Committee, we should not have used it. Let’s read recommendation 7. It says, ‘from a centrally held universal list of citizens.’ I think, 3985 Mr President, that is what we should have put in number 9 instead of the word ‘database’. We are not looking for a database. I was not in the Council of Ministers when I sat on the Jury … Committee – (A Member: On the jury!) on the Jury Committee! (Laughter) I am on the jury now, Mr President, yes okay! No, I was not in the Council of Ministers. This was no predetermined effort to try to get some secret database in; this was because the 3990 system we have at the moment is not working. All you Members of Keys have been out to the electorate at the moment, and you have been given a voters’ list. Half the people on that voters’ list, because it is the same voters’ list that is used for jury service. There is a clash on using that list. It is stopping people going on the list, because they do not want to be on a jury. (A Member: Hear, hear.) 3995 So the Select Committee said we need to separate that. It makes common sense. And we need to make it in such a way that everybody is eligible to do jury service. Everybody should be eligible and actually be able to vote. There are those who can these days; some people cannot, some people do not know they are on a list. The system we have at the moment, Mr President, is certainly not working; it is not working for elections, it is not working for jury. So we have to 4000 look at something different, which is exactly what the Select Committee did. A citizens list, of information such as names, addresses, date of birth, gender and national health number. We are certainly not looking for information on healthcare, taxation, inside leg measurement – all that. No, we just want a simple database with everybody on that you pick your jury service out of. This was no conspiracy by the previous Government or the present 4005 Government to go forward with a database. So please when you are going through these recommendations, please do not be put off. Council of Ministers wants to come forward next month with proposals and you will have your option then to kick them out. But what we are saying is, this is about the jury and how it is selected and that our recommendations are what we should have going forward. How that is 4010 determined will be up to you to decide at a later date when Council of Ministers does come forward with its recommendations. But if we throw it out today it means all the work that the Select Committee has done will have been wasted and we will still be using the same system of going back to the voters’ list and having the same people on the juries that are getting fed up of going on time and time again, because half the citizens of the Isle of Man do not want to go on 4015 the jury list. The system at the moment is broken. This is a chance to give us a direction of putting it right. Mr Speaker also went on again about the fact that we had not looked at other jurisdictions: ‘Why did we go to the 10-12 system when there are lots more out there?’ If you want to go back to your file and read page 52, Mr Montgomerie actually gave us information from everywhere – ______187 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
4020 England, Wales, Ireland, Jamaica, all the different types of systems. Scotland, where they have 15 on a jury and they take a total majority verdict. So you can have an 8-7 in Scotland; that is a completely different system. We did not recommend that one, we just recommended a 12-person jury for serious crimes only where a majority verdict would be accepted, because we know some of the trials of the future are going to be far more complex, they are going to be far 4025 more involved and there is going to be a greater possibility of tampering going forward with these future trials. So, please, I would ask you to agree with all the recommendations today that we have put forward – except for number 12. I do not think number 12 can work, I think it is not good, the way we have actually worded it – and I have just discussed that with the Chairman. But please 4030 do not be put off by all this scaremongering about databases. We are looking for a nice central universally held list of citizens – nothing more. Read number 7 it leads into number 9, and it is just unfortunate that we have put ‘database’ in the wording of number 9 and I think it really has started the hare running. (Interjections) Thank you, Mr President. 4035 The President: Hon. Member for Garff, Mr Perkins.
Mr Perkins: Thank you, Mr President. I believe I speak on behalf of all Members of this Court when I say we are here in this Court 4040 because we believe in democracy, the rule of law and public service. I am concerned about the citizens – as indeed other Members are – who disenfranchise themselves from the democratic process by refusing to go on the electoral roll purely and simply to avoid jury service. As the Hon. Member explained, this clearly needs sorting out. The small employer cannot be expected to pay for the employee doing jury service. Giving 4045 them time off and having other members of staff cover for them gives disruption enough. The provision for less than 40 employees in the proposals may seem to cover this, but I doubt it. We need to look at that carefully. To the hard-working hourly paid employee, to lose a day’s pay or a week’s pay or even more can cause considerable hardship. I feel they should at least receive the taxi fare to and from the court and remuneration that they would normally receive in their 4050 normal employment. People will say, Mr President, this is an expensive option; and indeed justice is expensive, particularly if you have had to pay a lawyer’s bill in the last few months! (Laughter) Joking aside, what cost is justice to make sure we get the right criminals put in the place they deserve? Justice must be seen to be done and done in a correct manner, as indeed it is the very foundation of 4055 why we are in this place. So how should we go about selecting a jury; which method, which list, which database, whatever? The Government has the Electoral Register database, the Income Tax database, the National Insurance database, the vehicle licensing database, the firearms database, the harbour boat users’ database, the landlords’ database, the DHSS, the dog licence database, the forestry 4060 tree-felling database; the General Registry has got the births, marriages and deaths database! It would not be much good using that to call up a juror – on the latter. But my point is this, provided the database is used solely for the purpose of selecting jury members and it is kept particularly to that, without the overarching connection with the rest of the databases, I believe there is not a problem with making a database for this purpose. 4065 The people who opt out of jury service should bear in mind that if the situation was reversed and they were in the dock, they would only want the best possible outcome, the best possible judgment and the best possible judging by their peers. I believe it is actually essential we give this full consideration and get this matter right.
4070 The President: I call on the mover to reply, Mr Robertshaw.
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Mr Robertshaw: Thank you, Mr President, and I thank my seconder, Mr Malarkey, for both seconding and for his contribution. I will not go round every individual Member’s contribution. (Several Members: Hear, hear.) I 4075 thank you all for making the contributions that you have. What I will do is just try to capture the key issues that I think have been raised. First of all, just a bit of clarity here really. It is our duty in this Court to review the processes and veracity of our jury system; it is our duty and we have not done it for scores and scores of years. It is long overdue. That is what the last House decided we needed to do and set a select 4080 committee up to do its duty and report back – and that is what it has done. It is unfortunate that we have all these strange words flying around about, ‘It wasn’t in my manifesto,’ and, ‘This is some sort of surreptitious way of getting something through’. We were doing an honest task which is required of us in this Court, to look at something that is our responsibility; and, having done that, we collected 13 recommendations for this Hon. Court to consider. 4085 At the heart of it was the concept of, first of all, why are we in the position that we are, that so few people are on the jury list? That was the first issue. The second issue was how do we respond to that proactively, so we encourage more of our citizens to be on that list? I am sorry that we hear the words, ‘Well, let’s prosecute them’. Is that the way to go? Is that the way to go forward or is it more to analyse what it is that we are not doing right, put that right and naturally 4090 see a much greater migration towards people willing to do their duty? I tried to explain earlier on with regard to those on lower income who were missing out; and the reaction is, ‘Well, let’s pay everybody!’ But we have a shortage of finance, so your Committee did the obvious and common sense thing and said, okay, how do we protect those on lower incomes and how do we protect the taxpayer? It is a reasonable set of things to 4095 deliberate upon and we came up with a solution. And I really do not get the DED’s position on this at all, this idea that it cannot work. I do not accept that. I repeat to you that in terms of employers generally, the exposure is a 1 in 18,300 chance. So for big employers, in financial terms, it is not a risk and I said that. But it is a massive risk for somebody on a low income who actually has to end up on a jury, and they will do 4100 anything to avoid that, including not keeping themselves on the electoral roll. So that was a reasonable and sensible response, and I think, with respect, Government is seeing things from the Government’s perspective, the administration’s perspective, bureaucracy’s perspective, and not the citizen; and our job and our duty here is to represent the citizen. And I stand by recommendation 12 in that regard. It simply divides things up and 4105 apportions the money to where it really needs to go. If the attitude is, ‘Well, let’s just pay everybody what they otherwise would earn,’ that is creating problems for other people, because there is a claim-back system and it is also more expensive for Government. I thought that we were here to look at ways of making things more efficient and productive and cost-effective, but we do not seem to be doing that. We are looking at things in microcosm 4110 again and then saying, ‘Well, you know, let’s knee-jerk respond to that’. I stand by recommendation 12. As far as the issue of majority verdicts, I was very surprised. We got some pretty dismissive remarks from Mr Speaker and we went back into prehistoric times, or some ridiculous thing, about trying to grasp the idea that once upon a time seven was the standard jury size. And then 4115 he says, ‘Well, actually majority verdicts are okay’. What he is doing there is accepting the fact that there is a purpose and a need for a majority verdict, because he said, ‘Let’s make it 5-2’. Come on! Mr President, 5-2! Do you want to be in a court where you have got a jury of seven and you get a majority verdict of 5-2 and you go to jail for goodness knows how long? I don’t think so! That was 4120 nonsense. But what Mr Speaker was right on was to suggest that there are occasions when a majority verdict is necessary; and we were trying to futureproof. It may well be that this Hon. Court does not come back to looking at jury issues again for another 77 years, so we had better start thinking about where things are going and protect ______189 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
ourselves against it. And majority verdicts are, despite what has been said elsewhere to the 4125 contrary, actually now the adopted form of protecting good outcomes, and yet recognising that there are those difficulties. Do not underestimate, in future terms, the potential for interference with juries. It could happen! It is happening elsewhere. Why should we consider ourselves immune from that? We cannot. And what you are actually doing is, instead of saying, for example, seven people in this 4130 case consider you guilty and you will go to prison, we are saying you need 10! But there was that element at the end, where you are protecting yourself from potential interference. Do not underestimate the potential … [Inaudible] for modern technology interfere with juries surreptitiously. That could very well easily happen. I want to turn to the one that got quite a lot of Hon. Members animated and that is 4135 recommendation 9. Let’s go back to what your Select Committee did. Your Select Committee looked at the situation that exists, which is that we all worry as we go into an election that there are so many people missing off it and we know that a significant proportion – we do not know what the figure is – but a significant proportion of those people are not involved because they do not want to be on a jury. Not everybody, but it is a significant proportion. I don’t know what 4140 the number is, and you don’t, but it is there. Our system is thoroughly inadequate at the moment. Why are we even thinking about protecting an inadequate system which is encouraging citizens to remove themselves from their civic duty? What on earth do we think we are doing? Surely that is not what we want to do; surely we want to find solutions. That is what the 4145 Select Committee was charged to do. That is what we did. We thought about it very carefully indeed and said we must separate. We must separate the electoral roll from the jury list. But we cannot go back to this Hon. Court and say, ‘Heigh-ho, we are going to separate it; we wish to recommend a separation and we know that is going to cost more money.’ Back to that original concept of efficiency and productivity and being cost-effective. 4150 So we had no choice but to say if we are going to recommend that, how is it going to happen without it costing more money? That is the point we were inevitably going to look to the centre, to the GTS, etc. and say, ‘Is this possible?’ And that is where we started to recognise the momentum that is developing to try to make Government more efficient and productive, and to make it more streamlined. And it is not for me today to defend the Cabinet Office, their actions, 4155 or what we need to do, because there are many things that we do need to do that are going to make this Government and our future more cost-effective, so we can pay for all the things that you want and will expect, and are listed today by the Chief Minister in terms of the overarching proposals. They are not going to happen unless the Government makes itself a damn sight more 4160 efficient. But I cannot defend central databases, etc. All we did was simply recommend. We ask you to consider the method by which databases could be constructed. We asked the centre to consider a legal framework; we ask these things to be considered. And, lo and behold, they are happening. So how is it that in this debate today we are reacting so strongly about a piece of work that is 4165 happening exclusive to the Committee? But the Committee had to recognise that, in order to say this is how we are going to split the two, or we believe they should. Otherwise you would have looked at me and said, ‘Well, Chairman of the Committee, you can suggest these things, but how can you do them?’ Back to square one. Please think this process through. You may or may not be for central databases, or whatever 4170 you want to call them.
Mr Malarkey: You do not want a ‘database’.
Mr Robertshaw: I am told I should not use the word ‘database’. (Mr Thomas: Register.) A 4175 register. (Mr Malarkey: Register.) Thank you. (Interjection) ______190 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
You may or may not be for it, but this is not the moment to anticipate that. This simply says this is a mechanism by which we can arrive at a situation where you can separate, effectively, the jury list and the electoral roll. That is what that’s all about. You are going to have a major debate on that later. Please do not pre-empt that debate, 4180 (A Member: Hear, hear.) or that discussion. Please do not pre-empt what the Minister of Policy and Reform may or may not say, because that is for the future. We are just pointing at it. And in fact we are asking things to happen which are in process anyway. So it becomes a little bit contradictory to say we do not want to do what is happening. What you should be doing is looking forward to when it is brought to the Hon. Court and is debated in more detail; because 4185 believe me, it is very important indeed. So I have dealt with recommendations 12 and 9. I think there was a comment somewhere about recommendation 4, a majority verdict – I have also dealt with that. I will just touch on judge-only trials before closing, Mr President. This is that a judge-only trial is an absolute exception issue. Elsewhere it is perfectly possible for the accused to seek a judge- 4190 only trial, presumably only granted in very special circumstances. And all we are suggesting, as a Select Committee, is that it be considered, but particularly with regard to the complex trials, as Mr Malarkey, Hon. Member for Douglas South, mentioned. The matter of judge-only trials can also be important when it comes to these extremely complex financial trials that could very well occur, and Moneyval requires us to have the competency to do that. But a trial of that nature 4195 could go on for eight or nine months and it could be a very complex matter. At the beginning of that process there would have to be a decision on how to construct that court in order to make sure that justice and a good conclusion were arrived at in such a complex situation. So all we are saying there is that that needs to be brought into focus. Your Committee has brought into focus after over 70 years the issue that we are responsible 4200 for, which is the good function of our juries. We have done that to the very best of our ability, without any dark or other ulterior motives, and we beg that you consider supporting the recommendations. Mr President, I beg to move.
4205 The President: Hon. Members, the motion is set out at Item 9, and I intend to take all of the recommendations in turn. We will start with recommendation 1. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Recommendation 2. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes 4210 have it. Recommendation 3. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it.
A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows:
In the Keys – Ayes 21, Noes 3
FOR AGAINST Mr Ashford Mrs Caine Mr Baker Mr Callister Mrs Beecroft Mr Speaker Mr Boot Mr Cannan Mrs Corlett Mr Cregeen Dr Allinson Mr Harmer Mr Hooper Mr Malarkey Miss Bettison
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Mr Moorhouse Ms Edge Mr Peake Mr Perkins Mr Quayle Mr Robertshaw Mr Shimmins Mr Skelly Mr Thomas
The Speaker: In the Keys, Mr President, 21 for, 3 against.
In the Council – Ayes 3, Noes 4
FOR AGAINST Mr Anderson Mr Corkish Mr Coleman Mr Crookall Mr Cretney Mr Henderson Mr Turner
The President: In the Council, 3 votes for, and 4 against.
4215 Mr Robertshaw: Can I have a combined vote, Mr President, at a later date?
The Speaker: Next month.
The President: The Branches are in disagreement so the recommendation fails to carry. 4220 Mr Robertshaw.
Mr Robertshaw: Mr President, can I have a joint vote at a later Court?
The President: You are entitled to ask for a joint vote at the next sitting. 4225 One moment, Hon. Members. On the basis that that recommendation stands alone I think we can proceed to vote with the remaining recommendations and come back at the next sitting on recommendation 3 –
Mr Robertshaw: Mr President, I am grateful, thank you. 4230 The President: – rather than delay the vote on the whole thing. Thank you.
Mr Malarkey: Well done. 4235 The President: But as it stands, the recommendation fails to carry, the Branches being in disagreement. Recommendation 4. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it.
A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows:
In the Keys – Ayes 21, Noes 3
FOR AGAINST Mr Ashford Mrs Caine Mr Baker Mr Callister Mrs Beecroft Mrs Corlett
______192 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
Mr Boot Mr Cannan Mr Cregeen Dr Allinson Mr Harmer Mr Hooper Mr Malarkey Miss Bettison Mr Moorhouse Ms Edge Mr Peake Mr Perkins Mr Quayle Mr Robertshaw Mr Shimmins Mr Skelly Mr Speaker Mr Thomas
The Speaker: Mr President, in the Keys, 21 for, 3 against.
In the Council – Ayes 3, Noes 4
FOR AGAINST Mr Anderson Mr Corkish Mr Coleman Mr Crookall Mr Cretney Mr Henderson Mr Turner
4240 The President: In the Council, 3 for and 4 against. The recommendation fails to carry. Mr Robertshaw.
Mr Robertshaw: Same question, Mr President.
4245 The President: Again. Thank you. Recommendation 5. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Recommendation 6. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Recommendation 7. Those in favour, say aye; against, no.
4250 Mr Callister: Against, no. Divide.
The President: The ayes have it.
The President: Was that a division called? 4255 Mr Callister: Division, please, yes.
The President: The ayes have it. Recommendation 8. 4260 The Speaker: Point of order, Mr President, Mr Callister did call a division.
The President: You called a division?
4265 Mr Callister: I did, sorry, apologies. (Interjections)
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The President: Recommendation 7.
A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows:
In the Keys – Ayes 23, Noes 1
FOR AGAINST Mr Ashford Mr Callister Mr Baker Mrs Beecroft Mr Boot Mrs Caine Mr Cannan Mrs Corlett Mr Cregeen Dr Allinson Mr Harmer Mr Hooper Mr Malarkey Miss Bettison Mr Moorhouse Ms Edge Mr Peake Mr Perkins Mr Quayle Mr Robertshaw Mr Shimmins Mr Skelly Mr Speaker Mr Thomas
The Speaker: In the Keys, 23 for, 1 against.
In the Council – Ayes 7, Noes 0
FOR AGAINST Mr Anderson None Mr Coleman Mr Corkish Mr Cretney Mr Crookall Mr Henderson Mr Turner
The President: In the Council, 7 for and none against. The recommendation carries. 4270 Recommendation 8. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Recommendation 9. All in favour, say aye; against, no. The noes have it.
A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows:
In the Keys – Ayes 16, Noes 8
FOR AGAINST Mr Ashford Mrs Caine Mr Baker Mr Callister Mrs Beecroft Mrs Corlett Mr Boot Dr Allinson Mr Cannan Mr Hooper Mr Cregeen Mr Moorhouse ______194 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
Mr Harmer Ms Edge Mr Malarkey Mr Speaker Miss Bettison Mr Peake Mr Perkins Mr Quayle Mr Robertshaw Mr Shimmins Mr Skelly Mr Thomas
The Speaker: In the Keys, Mr President, 16 for, 8 against.
In the Council – Ayes 3, Noes 4
FOR AGAINST Mr Anderson Mr Cretney Mr Coleman Mr Crookall Mr Corkish Mr Henderson Mr Turner
The President: In the Council, 3 for and 4 against. The Branches are in disagreement. Mr Robertshaw. 4275 Mr Robertshaw: Mr President, I am sorry about this, but the same question.
Mr Anderson: The same answer.
4280 The President: Combined vote next sitting. Thank you. Recommendation 10. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Recommendation 11. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Recommendation 12. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The noes have it.
A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows:
In the Keys – Ayes 3, Noes 21
FOR AGAINST Mr Baker Mr Ashford Mr Peake Mrs Beecroft Mr Robertshaw Mr Boot Mrs Caine Mr Callister Mr Cannan Mrs Corlett Mr Cregeen Dr Allinson Mr Harmer Mr Hooper Mr Malarkey Miss Bettison Mr Moorhouse Ms Edge Mr Perkins Mr Quayle Mr Shimmins Mr Skelly Mr Speaker Mr Thomas ______195 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
The Speaker: In the Keys, Mr President, 3 for and 21 against.
In the Council – Ayes 0, Noes 7
FOR AGAINST None Mr Anderson Mr Coleman Mr Corkish Mr Cretney Mr Crookall Mr Henderson Mr Turner
4285 The President: In the Council, no votes for and 7 against. Recommendation 12 therefore falls. Recommendation 13. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Now, Hon. Members, what I intend to do, then: the record shows that recommendations 1, 2, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11 and 13 have been approved. Recommendations 3, 4 and 9 failed to carry but will be voted on as a combined vote at the next sitting, at which time I will take a vote on the 4290 substantive resolution, as amended. Is that clear, Hon. Members?
The Speaker: Yes.
The President: It is a good time to take a break for tea, Hon. Members. The Court will resume 4295 at 10 minutes to 6.
The Court adjourned at 5.18 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 5.50 p.m.
10. Election of Deputy President – Mr Speaker elected
To elect a Deputy President of Tynwald in accordance with section 5(1) of the Constitution Act 1990.
(The person elected as Deputy President must be either a Member of the House of Keys or an elected Member of the Legislative Council; the previous Deputy President was Mr Speaker Rodan. A Minister who is elected as Deputy President will go out of office immediately).
The President: Please be seated, Hon. Members. We turn to Item 10, election of Deputy President. This election is governed by the provisions of the Constitution Act 1990 and also by Standing Order 5.3. The election will be carried out electronically, but the procedure remains the same and the vote will be secret, as usual. 4300 I want to remind Hon. Members of the procedure. Candidates are nominated. Once a candidate has been nominated, a seconder for that nomination will be sought before further nominations are taken. When all those whom the Court wishes to nominate and second have been nominated and seconded, the Clerk of Tynwald will read out the list of candidates in the order in which they appear on the electronic ballot paper. Even if there is only one candidate, 4305 there will be a ballot in accordance with the Constitution Act 1990. If that is clear, Hon. Members, I now call for nominations. Mr Harmer.
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Mr Harmer: Thank you. 4310 I would like to propose Mr Speaker, Hon. Member for Rushen, Juan Watterson – just briefly, an excellent Speaker and a man of integrity.
Mr Ashford: I beg to second, Mr President.
4315 The President: Mr Ashford seconding. Any other nominations? In that case, the nomination –
Mr Anderson: The Clerk reads out the names.
4320 The President: Please read out the nomination.
The Clerk: Mr President, the one Member who has been nominated and seconded is Mr Speaker.
4325 The President: We will move to a vote momentarily.
The Speaker: This could be very embarrassing, couldn’t it! (Laughter)
A ballot took place and electronic voting resulted as follows:
Vote Results Mr Speaker 31
The President: The result of the ballot is that Mr Speaker received 31 votes and is elected. 4330 Congratulations. I declare that Mr Speaker has been elected President of Tynwald to hold office – (Several Members: Deputy President!) (Laughter) What did I say? (Several Members: President.) (Laughter) Did I? Deputy President, to hold office until the day of the first ordinary sitting of Tynwald in July 2021.
11. Public Accounts Committee – Mr Speaker elected Chairman
To elect a Chairman.
(Under the Schedule to Standing Orders, paragraph 3.3, the following Members are not eligible for membership of this Committee: the President, members of the Council of Ministers and members of the Treasury. The previous members of the Committee were Mr Cannan (Chairman), Mr Corkish (Vice-Chairman), Mr Coleman, Mr Cretney and Mr Wild.)
The President: Hon. Members, we now turn to Item 11. We are moving to the election of 4335 committee chairmen and members. A note setting out the names of those who are eligible and those who are ineligible or conflicted by reason of their membership of a Department or other duties has been circulated. I hope this will assist Members in making their nominations. I should remind Members that the duties attached to a committee of Tynwald or the 4340 Branches take precedence over all other public duties. If a Member exceptionally has to seek leave of absence, this should be through the chair of the committee in the same way as an
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application to the relevant presiding officer in the case of absence from one or other of the Chambers. I shall now invite nominations for the first Item: chairmanship of the Public Accounts 4345 Committee. Mr Perkins.
Mr Perkins: Mr President, I would like to propose the Hon. Member for East Douglas, Chris Robertshaw. 4350 The President: Mr Cretney.
Mr Cretney: I am nominating somebody else.
4355 The President: You nominate or second whoever you wish.
Mr Cretney: I wish to nominate the Hon. Member of Council, Mr Coleman.
Mr Corkish: I beg to second that, Mr President. 4360 The President: Mrs Beecroft.
Mrs Beecroft: I would like to nominate Mr Hooper.
4365 The President: Ms Edge.
Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to second Mr Hooper.
4370 The President: Mr Callister.
Mr Callister: Can I second the Speaker, please, Mr President.
Mr Anderson: Mr Speaker has not been proposed yet. 4375 A Member: He has not been proposed.
Mr Callister: Oh, sorry. (Laughter)
4380 The President: Mr Shimmins.
Mr Shimmins: Mr President, I would like to nominate Mr Watterson, the Hon. Member for Rushen.
4385 A Member: Now you second him.
Mr Callister: I am sorry. I apologise. I would like to second the Speaker. Apologies, Mr President.
4390 The President: Mrs Corlett.
Mrs Corlett: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to second Mr Robertshaw.
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The President: Have we had a seconder for Mr Speaker? (A Member: Yes.) (Mr Corkish: Not 4395 yet.) Mr Callister.
Mr Henderson: That was prior to his proposal.
Mr Corkish: Yes, it was prior to his proposal. 4400 The President: I will ask the Clerk to read out the names of the candidates who have been proposed and seconded.
The Clerk: The following candidates have been proposed and seconded for chairmanship of 4405 the PAC: Mr Coleman, Mr Hooper, Mr Robertshaw and Mr Speaker.
The President: That concludes nominations. We will move to a vote.
Mr Crookall: Mr President, sorry, just to be clear, could I clarify – Mr Callister did second 4410 before Mr Speaker had been nominated, so I will second Mr Speaker.
The President: I think that is probably irrelevant at this point (Laughter) due to the fact that Mr Speaker has been proposed and seconded. Am I right, Clerk?
4415 The Clerk: Yes, sir.
The President: Yes, thank you. We move to a vote.
A first ballot took place and electronic voting resulted as follows:
Vote Results Mr Speaker 14 Mr Robertshaw 7 Mr Coleman 6 Mr Hooper 4
The President: The result of the ballot is that Mr Speaker received 14 votes, Mr Robertshaw received 7 votes, Mr Coleman received 6 votes and Mr Hooper received 4 votes. No candidate 4420 has received a majority. Therefore, we shall vote again, omitting the name of Mr Hooper.
A second ballot took place and electronic voting resulted as follows:
Vote Results Mr Speaker 17 Mr Robertshaw 10 Mr Coleman 4
The President: The result of the ballot is that Mr Speaker received 17 votes, Mr Robertshaw 10 votes, and Mr Coleman 4 votes. Therefore, Mr Speaker is elected Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee.
12. Economic Policy Review Committee – Mr Coleman elected Chairman
To elect a Chairman. ______199 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
(Under the Schedule to Standing Orders, paragraph 1.3, the following Members are not eligible for membership of this Committee: the President, members of the Council of Ministers and members of the Treasury. Under paragraph 3.2 the Chairman is an ex-officio member of the Public Accounts Committee and may not also chair another Policy Review Committee. The previous members of the Committee were Mr Coleman (Chairman), Mr Peake and Mr Turner.)
The President: Item 12, to elect a Chairman of the Economic Policy Review Committee. May I 4425 hear nominations. Mr Harmer.
Mr Harmer: I would like to nominate Member of the Legislative Council, Mr Coleman.
4430 The President: Mr Coleman has been nominated.
Mr Cregeen: I beg to second Mr Coleman.
The President: Ms Edge. 4435 Ms Edge: I would like to nominate Mr Baker.
Mr Hooper: I am happy to second that, Mr President.
4440 The President: Seconded, Mr Baker. Any other nominations? In that case, we will proceed to a ballot. I call on the Clerk.
The Clerk: The two Members nominated for chairmanship of the Economic Policy Review Committee are Mr Coleman and Mr Baker.
A ballot took place and electronic voting resulted as follows:
Vote Results Mr Coleman 16 Mr Baker 15
4445 The President: The result of the ballot is that Mr Coleman received 16 votes and Mr Baker 15 votes. Mr Coleman is thereby elected.
13. Environment and Infrastructure Policy Review Committee – Mr Callister elected Chairman
To elect a Chairman.
(Under the Schedule to Standing Orders, paragraph 1.3, the following Members are not eligible for membership of this Committee: the President, members of the Council of Ministers and members of the Treasury. Under paragraph 3.2 the Chairman is an ex-officio member of the Public Accounts Committee and may not also chair another Policy Review Committee. The previous members of the Committee were Mr Wild (Chairman), Mr Cregeen and Mr Quirk.)
The President: Environment and Infrastructure Policy Review Committee. May I hear nominations. Mr Ashford.
______200 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
Mr Ashford: I nominate the Hon. Member for Douglas East, Mr Robertshaw. 4450 A Member: I will second that, Mr President.
The President: Thank you.
4455 Miss Bettison: I would like to nominate the Hon. Member for Onchan, Rob Callister.
A Member: I second that, Mr President.
The President: Thank you. We have two nominations. Are there any further nominations? If 4460 not, we go to a ballot. I call the Clerk.
The Clerk: The two Members nominated are Mr Callister and Mr Robertshaw for chairmanship of the Environment and Infrastructure Policy Review Committee.
A ballot took place and electronic voting resulted as follows:
Vote Results Mr Callister 16 Mr Robertshaw 15
The President: The result of the ballot is that Mr Callister received 16 votes and 4465 Mr Robertshaw 15. Therefore, Mr Callister is elected.
14. Social Affairs Policy Review Committee – Mr Cretney elected Chairman
To elect a Chairman.
(Under the Schedule to Standing Orders, paragraph 1.3, the following Members are not eligible for membership of this Committee: the President, members of the Council of Ministers and members of the Treasury. Under paragraph 3.2 the Chairman is an ex-officio member of the Public Accounts Committee and may not also chair another Policy Review Committee. The previous members of the Committee were Mr Cretney (Chairman), Mr Boot and Mr Speaker Rodan.)
The President: Social Affairs Policy Review Committee. May I hear nominations.
A Member: I would like to nominate Mr Cretney, please.
4470 Miss Bettison: I would like to second Mr Cretney.
The President: Seconded, Mr Cretney, thank you. Ms Edge.
4475 Ms Edge: I would like to nominate Mr Baker.
Mr Callister: I would like to second that, Mr President.
______201 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
Mr Hooper: I would like to nominate Mrs Caine. 4480 The President: I am sorry, could you repeat that?
Mr Hooper: Mrs Caine.
4485 The President: Ms Edge?
Several Members: Mrs Caine.
The President: Mrs Caine. 4490 Dr Allinson: I would like to second that, please.
The President: Do we have a seconder to Mrs Caine?
4495 Dr Allinson: Yes, sir.
The President: Seconded, thank you. I call on the Clerk.
4500 The Clerk: For the chairmanship of the Social Affairs Policy Review Committee the three candidates are Mr Cretney, Mr Baker and Mrs Caine.
The Speaker: As a point of order, Mr President, I understand that Mrs Caine may be due for appointment as the Children’s Champion and it may therefore be inappropriate for her to serve 4505 in both roles. I leave that in the hands of Hon. Members. Obviously it is not one that is on the list as a Government appointment.
The President: Would you repeat what the conflict is?
4510 The Speaker: I understand that Mrs Caine may be due for nomination for the Children’s Champion, so it may be something that Hon. Members wish to be aware of, as it may be a potential conflict of interest in potentially sitting in both roles on the Government side and on the scrutiny side.
4515 The President: I thank you for that point of order and invite Members of the Court to take that on board.
A ballot took place and electronic voting resulted as follows:
Vote Results Mr Cretney 18 Mr Baker 9 Mrs Caine 4
The President: The result of the ballot is that Mr Cretney received 18 votes, Mr Baker 9 votes and Mrs Caine 4 votes. Mr Cretney is duly elected.
______202 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
15. Public Accounts Committee – Mr Crookall elected Vice-Chairman
To elect a Vice-Chairman.
(Under the Schedule to Standing Orders, paragraph 3.3, the following Members are not eligible for membership of this Committee: the President, members of the Council of Ministers and members of the Treasury. Under paragraph 3.2 the Vice Chairman may not also be Chairman of a Policy Review Committee. The previous members of the Committee were Mr Cannan (Chairman), Mr Corkish (Vice-Chairman), Mr Coleman, Mr Cretney and Mr Wild.)
The President: We turn now to the Ecclesiastical Committee – 4520 The Clerk: Public Accounts Vice-Chairman. Item 15.
The President: Sorry, I am ahead of myself. Public Accounts Committee, to elect a Vice- Chairman. May I hear nominations. 4525 Mrs Beecroft.
Mrs Beecroft: I would like to nominate Mr Hooper.
Dr Allinson: Can I second that, please. 4530 The President: Any further nominations?
Mr Corkish: Mr President, can I propose Mr Crookall, Member of Council.
4535 The President: Mr Crookall.
Mr Coleman: I beg to second.
The President: Seconded, thank you. Any further nominations? 4540 I call on the Clerk.
The Clerk: For the vice-chairmanship of the Public Accounts Committee two Members have been nominated: Mr Crookall and Mr Hooper.
A ballot took place and electronic voting resulted as follows:
Vote Results Mr Crookall 17 Mr Hooper 14
The President: In the ballot Mr Crookall received 17 votes and Mr Hooper 14 votes. 4545 Mr Crookall is thus elected Vice-Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee.
16. Economic Policy Review Committee – Mr Baker and Mr Moorhouse elected
To elect two members.
______203 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
(Under the Schedule to Standing Orders, paragraph 1.3, the following Members are not eligible for membership of this Committee: the President, members of the Council of Ministers and members of the Treasury; and under paragraph 3.2 the Chairman is an ex-officio member of the Public Accounts Committee. The previous members of the Committee were Mr Coleman (Chairman), Mr Peake and Mr Turner.)
The President: Economic Policy Review Committee, to elect two members. May I hear nominations. Mr Speaker.
4550 The Speaker: I propose Mr Baker.
A Member: I second Mr Baker, Mr President.
The President: Seconded, Mr Baker. 4555 Mrs Beecroft: I would like to nominate Mr Moorhouse. Thank you.
Miss Bettison: Can I second Mr Moorhouse.
4560 The President: Mr Moorhouse proposed and seconded. Thank you. Any further nominations? I call on the Clerk to read the names.
The Clerk: Mr President, there are two spaces for members of the Economic Policy Review Committee and only two Members have been nominated: Mr Baker and Mr Moorhouse. 4565 The Speaker: It’s an easy one.
The Clerk: No need for a vote.
4570 The President: There is no election?
The Clerk: No, they are elected.
The President: The two Members elected therefore are Mr Baker and Mr Moorhouse.
17. Environment and Infrastructure Policy Review Committee – Mr Robertshaw and Miss Bettison elected
To elect two members.
(Under the Schedule to Standing Orders, paragraph 1.3, the following Members are not eligible for membership of this Committee: the President, members of the Council of Ministers and members of the Treasury; and under paragraph 3.2 the Chairman is an ex-officio member of the Public Accounts Committee. The previous members of the Committee were Mr Wild (Chairman), Mr Cregeen and Mr Quirk.) 4575 The President: Environment and Infrastructure Policy Review Committee. Two members again, please.
______204 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
The Speaker: Mr Robertshaw, sir. 4580 Mr Cregeen: I second Mr Robertshaw.
The President: Mr Robertshaw proposed and seconded, thank you. A further nomination, please. 4585 Mr Callister: Can I nominate Clare Bettison, please.
The President: Miss Bettison has been proposed.
4590 A Member: I second Miss Bettison.
The President: And seconded. I call on the Clerk.
4595 The Clerk: There are two vacancies for members on the Environment and Infrastructure Policy Review Committee and only two Members have been nominated and seconded: Miss Bettison and Mr Robertshaw.
The President: Mr Robertshaw and Miss Bettison duly elected as the two members of the 4600 Environment and Infrastructure Policy Review Committee.
18. Social Affairs Policy Review Committee – Mr Ashford and Mr Perkins elected
To elect two members.
(Under the Schedule to Standing Orders, paragraph 1.3, the following Members are not eligible for membership of this Committee: the President, members of the Council of Ministers and members of the Treasury; and under paragraph 3.2 the Chairman is an ex-officio member of the Public Accounts Committee. The previous members of the Committee were Mr Cretney (Chairman), Mr Boot and Mr Speaker Rodan.)
The President: Social Affairs Policy Review Committee – nominations for two members, please.
The Speaker: I propose Mr Ashford, sir. 4605 Mr Coleman: I second Mr Ashford.
The President: Mr Ashford proposed and seconded. Thank you.
4610 Mr Crookall: I nominate Mrs Caine.
Mr Callister: I will second Mrs Caine, Mr President.
The Speaker: It is the same issue as last time, sir. 4615
______205 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
The President: The potential conflict that has been identified by Mr Speaker does not preclude her being nominated, but it would be sensible, I think, to carry on if it has not been seconded, and I invite another nomination, please. Mr Boot. 4620 Mr Boot: I nominate Mr Peake.
The President: Mr Peake.
4625 A Member: I will second Mr Peake.
The President: Seconded. Any further nomination? Mr Peake cannot be nominated, as a Member of Treasury.
4630 A Member: Could I nominate Ms Edge.
Mr Coleman: I will second Ms Edge.
The President: Seconded. 4635 The Speaker: I propose Mr Anderson.
The President: Mr Anderson, thank you. Do we have a seconder?
4640 Mr Hooper: I will second that, Mr President.
A Member: Mr Perkins.
Mr Crookall: I second that, Mr President. 4645 The President: I call on the Clerk.
The Clerk: Was Mrs Caine seconded?
4650 The President: No, Mrs Caine was not seconded.
The Clerk: For the Social Affairs Policy Review Committee there are two vacancies as members. There are four Members nominated: Mr Anderson, Mr Ashford, Ms Edge and Mr Perkins. 4655 A first ballot took place and electronic voting resulted as follows:
Vote Results Mr Ashford 20 Ms Edge 13 Mr Perkins 13 Mr Anderson 10 Number of spoilt papers 3
The President: The result of the ballot is that Mr Ashford received 20 votes, Ms Edge received 13 votes, Mr Perkins 13 votes and Mr Anderson 10 votes. There were 3 spoiled papers. We shall drop off the name of Mr Anderson and vote again between Ms Edge and Mr Perkins.
______206 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
A second ballot took place and electronic voting resulted as follows:
Vote Results Mr Perkins 16 Ms Edge 15 4660 The President: The result of the ballot is Mr Perkins received 16 votes and Ms Edge received 15 votes. Mr Perkins is therefore elected along with Mr Ashford.
19. Ecclesiastical Committee – Mr Anderson , Mr Cannan and Mr Corkish elected
To elect three members.
(The previous members were Mr Anderson, Mr Cannan and Mr Corkish.)
The President: Item 19, Ecclesiastical Committee. Three Members to be elected. 4665 Mr Speaker.
The Speaker: Can I propose that the present Committee be elected en bloc, Mr President.
Mr Cretney: Can I second that the present Committee be elected en bloc, Mr President. 4670 The President: Any alternative proposal? In that case, I will ask the Clerk to read out the names of the Members.
The Clerk: Mr President, the Members automatically elected are Mr Anderson, Mr Cannan 4675 and Mr Corkish.
The President: Thank you very much.
20. Standing Orders Committee of Tynwald Court: Keys Members – Mr Harmer and Mr Ashford elected
To elect two Members of the House of Keys.
(Under the Schedule to Standing Orders, paragraph 5.2, Mr Speaker is ex officio Chairman of this Committee. The previous elected Keys Members were Mr Karran and Mr Quayle.)
The President: We turn to Item 20, Standing Orders Committee of Tynwald Court, the Keys Members – to elect two Members of the House of Keys. This is a vote of all Members of the 4680 Court to elect two Members of the House of Keys. May I hear nominations. Chief Minister.
The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): I would like to nominate Mr Harmer. Thank you.
4685 Mr Malarkey: I beg to second Mr Harmer.
______207 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
The President: Thank you. Any others?
The Speaker: I propose Mr Ashford.
4690 Mr Callister: I would second that.
The President: Seconded. If there are no other nominations, I ask the Clerk – Sorry, Mr Boot.
4695 Mr Boot: Mr Hooper.
A Member: I second Mr Hooper.
The President: Seconded, Mr Hooper, thank you. 4700 I ask the Clerk to read out the names.
The Clerk: For the two Keys Members of the Standing Orders Committee of Tynwald Court the three Members nominated are Mr Ashford, Mr Harmer and Mr Hooper.
A ballot took place and electronic voting resulted as follows:
Vote Results Mr Harmer 23 Mr Ashford 22 Mr Hooper 13 4705 The President: The result of the ballot is that Mr Harmer received 23 votes, Mr Ashford 22 votes and Mr Hooper 13 votes. Mr Harmer and Mr Ashford are therefore elected.
21. Standing Orders Committee of Tynwald Court: Council Members – Mr Turner and Mr Corkish elected
To elect two Members of the Legislative Council.
(The previous Council Members were Mr Corkish and Mr Turner.)
The President: The next Item is to elect two Members of the Legislative Council to the 4710 Standing Orders Committee of Tynwald. Can I have your nominations. Mr Anderson.
Mr Anderson: Mr President, I would like to nominate Mr Corkish.
4715 A Member: I propose Mr Anderson.
Mr Malarkey: I propose Mr Turner.
Mr Ashford: I second Mr Turner. 4720 The President: Seconded, Mr Turner. I do not think we have a seconder yet for Mr –
______208 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
The Speaker: I second Mr Anderson.
The President: Do we have a seconder for Mr Corkish? 4725 Mr Coleman: I second Mr Corkish.
The President: Any other nominations? I call on the Clerk. 4730 The Clerk: For the two Members of the Legislative Council to serve on the Standing Orders Committee of Tynwald Court three Members have been nominated: Mr Turner, Mr Anderson and Mr Corkish.
A ballot took place and electronic voting resulted as follows:
Vote Results Mr Turner 21 Mr Corkish 20 Mr Anderson 17 Number of spoilt papers 2
4735 The President: The result of the ballot: Mr Turner received 21 votes, Mr Corkish 20 votes and Mr Anderson 17 votes. I declare Mr Turner and Mr Corkish elected as Legislative Council Members.
22. Tynwald Honours Committee – Mrs Corlett, Mr Corkish and Mrs Caine elected
To elect three members.
(Under the Schedule to Standing Orders, paragraph 7.2, Mr President and Mr Speaker are ex officio members of this Committee. The previous elected members were Mr Corkish, Mr Cretney and Mr Ronan.)
The President: We turn now to Item 22, the Tynwald Honours Committee, to elect three members. Mr President and Mr Speaker are already ex officio members. So three members, 4740 please. Mr Harmer.
Mr Harmer: I would like to propose Mrs Ann Corlett.
4745 The President: Do we have a seconder?
Mr Coleman: I second, Mr President.
The Speaker: I wish to propose Mr Corkish. 4750 A Member: I second Mr Corkish.
The President: Thank you, seconder. Mrs Beecroft. ______209 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
4755 Mrs Beecroft: Mr Cretney.
Mr Baker: Mr Cregeen.
The President: Seconding Mr Cretney? 4760 Mr Baker: No, proposing Mr Cregeen.
Mr Malarkey: I second Mr Cregeen.
4765 A Member: I second Mr Cretney.
A Member: I propose Mrs Daphne Caine.
The President: Mrs Caine, thank you. 4770 A Member: I will second Mrs Caine.
Mr Hooper: I would like to propose Ms Edge.
4775 Mr Callister: I am happy to second that, Mr President.
The President: I ask the Clerk to read out the names.
The Clerk: For the three Members of the Tynwald Honours Committee there have been six 4780 nominations and seconders: Mr Cretney, Mr Corkish, Mrs Caine, Mrs Corlett, Mr Cregeen and Ms Edge.
A first ballot took place and electronic voting resulted as follows:
Vote Results Mrs Corlett 20 Mr Corkish 13 Mrs Caine 12 Mr Cretney 12 Mr Cregeen 9 Ms Edge 9 Number of spoilt papers 6
The President: The result of the ballot is that Mrs Corlett received 20 votes; Mr Corkish, 13; Mrs Caine, 12; Mr Cretney, 12; Mr Cregeen and Ms Edge, 9. 4785 Now, Hon. Members, the two lowest Members with 9 votes … I propose that we take a ballot between –
The President consulted with the Deputy Clerk.
The President: Right, what we do is vote on the remaining five candidates: Mr Corkish, Mrs Caine, Mr Cretney, Mr Cregeen and Ms Edge.
A second ballot took place and electronic voting resulted as follows:
______210 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
Vote Results Mr Corkish 16 Mrs Caine 12 Ms Edge 10 Mr Cregeen 9 Mr Cretney 9 Number of spoilt papers 3 4790 The President: Mr Corkish has received 16 votes; Mrs Caine, 12; Ms Edge, 10; Mr Cregeen, 9; and Mr Cretney, 9. We will vote again for the remaining candidate.
A third ballot took place and electronic voting resulted as follows:
Vote Results Mrs Caine 9 Ms Edge 8 Mr Cregeen 7 Mr Cretney 6 Number of spoilt papers 1
4795 The President: Mrs Caine received 9 votes; Ms Edge, 8; Mr Cregeen, 7; and Mr Cretney, 6. No candidate has been elected. We drop off the name of Mr Cretney and vote on the remaining three.
A fourth ballot took place and electronic voting resulted as follows:
Vote Results Mrs Caine 12 Mr Cregeen 10 Ms Edge 8 Number of spoilt papers 1
4800 The President: The result of the ballot: Mrs Caine received 12; Mr Cregeen, 10; and Ms Edge, 8. No one has been elected. We drop off the lowest candidate, Ms Edge.
A fifth ballot took place and electronic voting resulted as follows:
Vote Results Mrs Caine 18 Mr Cregeen 11 Number of spoilt papers 2
4805 The President: Mrs Caine received 18 votes and Mr Cregeen 11. Mrs Caine is elected to the Committee along with Mrs Corlett and Mr Corkish.
23. Tynwald Management Committee – Mrs Corlett, Mr Baker and Mr Cretney elected
To elect three members.
______211 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
(Under the Schedule to Standing Orders, paragraph 9.2, Mr President and Mr Speaker are ex officio members of this Committee. The previous elected Members were Mr Corkish, Mr Cretney and Mr Karran.)
The President: Tynwald Management Committee, to elect three members. Ex officio members are Mr President and Mr Speaker. Nominations, please. Mr Anderson. 4810 Mr Anderson: Mr President, I would like to nominate Mr Baker.
Mr Coleman: I would like to nominate Mr Cretney.
4815 A Member: I second Mr Cretney.
The Speaker: Can I nominate both Miss Bettison and Mr Hooper.
Mr Malarkey: I would like to nominate Mrs Corlett. 4820 Mr Hooper: Can I second Mr Baker.
The President: You are seconding…?
4825 Mr Hooper: Mr Baker.
The President: Mr Baker has been proposed and seconded.
Mr Ashford: I second Miss Bettison and Mr Hooper. 4830 The President: Mr Cretney has been proposed and seconded.
Mr Cregeen: I second Mrs Corlett.
4835 Mr Baker: I propose Ms Edge.
The President: I do not have seconders for … I ask the Clerk to –
The Clerk: I heard somebody second everybody except Ms Edge. 4840 Mrs Beecroft: Sorry, I stood to second that. I do not think you saw me, Mr President.
The Clerk: You seconded Ms Edge?
4845 The President: Are you seconding Ms Edge?
Mrs Beecroft: Yes, sir.
Mr Malarkey: I vote that you close nominations, Mr President. 4850 The Speaker: Or we will be here all night voting.
The President: I call on the Clerk to read the names.
______212 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
4855 The Clerk: I have six names of Members for the three vacant membership seats on the Tynwald Management Committee: Mr Cretney, Mr Baker, Miss Bettison, Mrs Corlett, Ms Edge and Mr Hooper.
A first ballot took place and electronic voting resulted as follows:
Vote Results Mrs Corlett 19 Mr Baker 16 Miss Bettison 14 Mr Cretney 14 Ms Edge 11 Mr Hooper 7 Number of spoilt papers 4
The President: The result of the ballot: Mrs Corlett received 19 votes; Mr Baker, 16; Miss Bettison, 14; Mr Cretney, 14; Ms Edge, 11; Mr Hooper, 7. There were 4 spoilt papers. 4860 Mrs Corlett and Mr Baker are elected. We shall vote on the remaining candidate from the last four.
A second ballot took place and electronic voting resulted as follows:
Vote Results Mr Cretney 14 Miss Bettison 7 Ms Edge 7 Mr Hooper 2 Number of spoilt papers 1
The President: The ballot: Mr Cretney received 14; Miss Bettison, 7; Ms Edge, 7; and Mr Hooper, 2. We drop off the name of Mr Hooper and vote again.
A third ballot took place and electronic voting resulted as follows:
Vote Results Mr Cretney 15 Ms Edge 9 Miss Bettison 6 Number of spoilt papers 1
4865 The President: Mr Cretney received 15, Ms Edge 9, and Miss Bettison 6. We drop off the name of Miss Bettison and vote again.
A fourth ballot took place and electronic voting resulted as follows:
Vote Results Mr Cretney 18 Ms Edge 13
The President: Mr Cretney received 18, Ms Edge 13. Mr Cretney is elected and serves along with Mr Baker and Mrs Corlett. Thank you, Hon. Members.
______213 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
Supplementary Order Paper No. 1
1. British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly – Mr Speaker and Mr Crookall elected Member and alternate Member
To elect one Member and one alternate Member to serve during the term of the House of Keys.
(The previous Member was Mr Speaker Rodan and the alternate Member was Mr Downie.)
4870 The President: We now take the Supplementary Order Paper – it would be the most logical thing to do – to elect one Member and an alternate Member to the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly as Tynwald representative. For your information, Hon. Members, it has been customary to elect one Member from each of the Branches for this. The conference takes place twice a year; the next one is due, in fact, in 4875 a couple of weeks’ time. It makes it easier for seeking leave of absence from one or other Branch if there is a Member, either the full Member or the alternate Member, from a different Branch. I ask you just to bear that in mind. Mr Harmer.
4880 Mr Harmer: I would like to propose Mr Speaker.
The Clerk: Mr President, sir, this is nominations for the delegate, not for the alternate.
The President: We are voting first for the representative, the delegate, not the alternate 4885 Member. So we will have two votes. The first one is for the Member who will normally be the representative on this Assembly. Mr Harmer.
Mr Harmer: I would like to propose Mr Speaker, please. 4890 The President: Thank you. Mr Ashford.
Mr Ashford: I second Mr Speaker. 4895 The President: Is that agreed, Hon. Members? (Members: Agreed.) Thank you very much. Mr Speaker is elected. Now, for an alternate Member may I hear nominations.
4900 A Member: I propose Mr Crookall, sir.
A Member: I second.
The President: Seconding Mr Crookall. Any further nominations? In that case, Mr Crookall is 4905 duly appointed the alternate Member to the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly.
______214 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
Main Order Paper
24. Merchant Shipping Registration Act 1991 – Merchant Shipping (Limited Partnerships) (Relevant Countries) Regulations 2016 approved
The Minister for Economic Development to move:
That the Merchant Shipping (Limited Partnerships) (Relevant Countries) Regulations 2016 [SD No 2016/0301] [MEMO] be approved.
The President: We turn now to Item 24, and we start the Orders. Merchant Shipping Registration Act – I call on the Minister for Economic Development, Mr Skelly, to move.
4910 The Minister for Economic Development (Mr Skelly): Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. There are only certain categories of persons who are qualified to own a Manx ship and therefore able to register within the Island under the Merchant Shipping Registration Act. The list of categories in the Act includes citizens, bodies corporate and limited partnerships. The Regulations before you today are the Merchant Shipping (Limited Partnerships) (Relevant 4915 Countries) Regulations 2016. These Regulations add Malta to a list of companies from which a limited partnership may be accepted as a registered owner of a Manx ship. Accepting Maltese limited partnerships is expected to generate additional yacht registration business for the Island. Following recent enquiries from a local corporate service provider, the Department has assessed Maltese limited partnerships and is satisfied that they meet the criteria in the Act to be the 4920 registered owner of a Manx ship. These Regulations therefore prescribe Malta for that purpose. The Regulations have been drafted in consultation with the shipping industry, the Attorney General’s Chambers and the UK Department of Transport. Subject to approval by Tynwald, these Regulations will come into operation on 18th November 2016. 4925 Eaghtyrane, I beg to move the motion standing in my name.
The President: Mr Perkins.
Mr Perkins: I beg to second, Mr President. 4930 The President: I put the motion set out at Item 24. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.
25.-26. Plant Varieties Act 1997 (of Parliament) – Plant Breeders’ Rights (Isle of Man) Regulations 2016 approved – Plant Breeders’ Rights (Naming and Fees) (Isle of Man) Regulations 2016 approved
The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture to move:
25. That the Plant Breeders’ Rights (Isle of Man) Regulations 2016 [SD No 2016/0315] [MEMO] be approved.
26. That the Plant Breeders’ Rights (Naming and Fees) (Isle of Man) Regulations 2016 [SD No 2016/0314] [MEMO] be approved.
______215 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
The President: The Minister has indicated he would like to move the next two motions, 25 and 26, together and vote separately. Is the Court agreeable? (Members: Agreed.) Thank you. 4935 I call on the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture, Mr Boot.
The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture (Mr Boot): Mr President, thank you. I am speaking on these two Items together today as they are linked to the same purpose. My predecessor at DEFA brought a motion before this Court in February 2015 which sought 4940 approval to extend two Acts of the United Kingdom Parliament relating to the growing and marketing of seeds. The extension of provisions of those Acts were intended to enable local growers to export harvested seed to the EU and third countries, as the Island would be in a position to meet the required obligations to enable such trade to occur. It was identified at that time that the legislation concerning seeds was somewhat outdated 4945 and this was predominantly due to a lack of desire within the agricultural industry to undertake the practice of growing seed for sale other than within the Island itself. It was noted that the opportunity had arisen where local growers had been approached by a company wishing to purchase seed produced on the Island, which would subsequently generate additional income for the industry. As Members will be aware, the Order extending those UK 4950 Acts was approved by the Privy Council in July of this year, and that was announced at last month’s sitting of Tynwald. These two items of secondary legislation are made under the provisions contained in the extended Acts and extend rights to growers should they wish to seek plant breeders’ rights for new varieties which may occur in the future. The legislation enabling the import, export and 4955 marketing of seed has been made under the European Communities (Isle of Man) Act 1973 as it relates to the trade aspects set down in Protocol 3. Any regulations made under the 1973 Act have to be made by the Council of Ministers. I would therefore, Mr President, ask for the support of Members for these two Items and beg to move the motions standing in my name. 4960 The President: Mr Baker.
Mr Baker: I beg to second and reserve my right to speak.
4965 The President: I put the motion first set out in Item 25. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Item 26: those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.
27. Animal Health Act 1996 – Bovine Identification and Traceability (Amendment) Order 2016 approved
The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture to move:
That the Bovine Identification and Traceability (Amendment) Order 2016 [SD No 2016/0316] [MEMO] be approved.
The President: Item 27, Animal Health Act 1996. Again, the Minister to move. Mr Boot.
4970 The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture (Mr Boot): Mr President, this Order makes a minor amendment to the Bovine Identification and Traceability (Amendment) Order 2007, following a review of the process for the collection of dead stock.
______216 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
The independent review was commissioned following the overturning of an appeal decision made under the Countryside Care Scheme which suggested there was a flaw in the operational 4975 practices associated with dead stock notification. Details for the reasons for the review and the report emanating from the review have been circulated to Members for information and it will be seen that the current obligations do not provide a robust check for non-compliance with it, providing an unnecessary choice for farmers, who should be returning any passports in respect of dead stock directly to DEFA. 4980 I therefore beg to move the motion standing in my name.
The President: Mr Perkins.
Mr Perkins: I beg to second that, Mr President, and reserve the right to speak. 4985 The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Turner.
Mr Turner: Thank you, Mr President. If I may thank the Minister, because it was I who actually heard the appeal back in my days at 4990 DEFA. I will not go into the specific case, because it is too involved, but basically what I discovered when I heard the appeal was that the system was not working, and surely our job is to, when we identify systems not working, recommend those systems are reviewed. I understand once that decision was made it did cause a considerable amount of work for the Department to undertake, and I thank the Minister – if he could pass on my thanks to the people 4995 who undertook that work. Although this is only a very small amendment to the legislation, it nevertheless sorts out what was a very messy process. We basically had a situation where the farm operator was meant to follow a process, as was a Government Department. Sometimes some were, other times others were not, and it was very messy. So I hope that this small amendment will go some 5000 way to reducing the bureaucracy, making the process simpler, that works for both the Department as the regulator and enforcer of the regulations and the rules, but also for the farm operators who have a busy enough time running their holdings in all sorts of weathers and conditions, and I hope this paper trail now is simplified for the better for all parties. Thank you, Mr President. 5005 The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I thank Mr Turner, Member of Council, for that. I would be happy to pass on the thanks to 5010 Department members. What is being proposed today, and will hopefully be passed, will make it one route to return the passport, rather than confusion. It will make it a lot easier for farmers to know where the passports are to go and that they have responsibility for doing that. I beg to move. 5015 The President: Hon. Members, I put the motion as set out at Item 27. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.
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28. Telecommunications Act 1984 – Sure (IOM) Limited Telecommunications Licence – Motion carried
The Chairman of the Communications Commission (Mr Malarkey) to move:
That Tynwald approves that the Telecommunications Licence issued under the Telecommunications Act 1984 to Sure (IOM) Limited [GD No 2016/0075] be modified under Section 8 to apply Code Powers.
The President: Item 28, Telecommunications Act. I call on the Chairman of the 5020 Communications Commission, Mr Malarkey, to move.
The Chairman of the Telecommunications Commission (Mr Malarkey): Thank you, Mr President. Sure have a licence to operate telecommunications services of all kinds on the Isle of Man. 5025 They have been an alternative mobile provider for Manx consumers since 2007 and now serve businesses and residential customers across the Island with fixed line and broadband as well as mobile services. Schedule 1 of the Telecommunications Act 1984, known as the Telecommunications Code, gives to certain network operators the rights to install and maintain their apparatus on public or 5030 private land. These rights and obligations are known as Code powers. Only those operators that have the Code applied can benefit from the Code powers. Manx Telecom is currently the only operator with Code powers to install and maintain telecommunications apparatus and have conditions placed on them in their licence in respect of the Code. 5035 In April 2016, Sure applied to the Communications Commission for its licence to be modified in order to include Code powers in order to facilitate the building of its own fixed network on the Island to service business customers in identified areas within the Island. Sure has experience in other jurisdictions of using Code powers responsibly. Sure must actively participate in the Joint Utilities Group and the Strategic Infrastructure 5040 Group and actively work with the DoI to ensure that the DoI’s conditions are met in relation to the highways. Sure must ensure: that the physical environment is protected and, in particular, that the natural beauty and amenity of the countryside is conserved; that there is no greater damage to streets or interference with traffic than is reasonably necessary; and that funds are available to 5045 meet any liabilities which may arise from the exercise of the rights. Mr President, I believe that the application of Code powers is appropriate on this occasion for Sure and I beg to move Item 28 on the Order Paper.
The President: Mr Skelly. 5050 Mr Skelly: I beg to second and reserve my remarks, Eaghtyrane.
The President: Hon. Member for Ramsey, Dr Allinson.
5055 Dr Allinson: I would also very much encourage this application. One of the interesting things about it is the stipulation that the provider should provide caller location information to the Joint Control Room. This is currently something that is lacking from Manx Telecom, so I think it will be a real benefit if Sure can provide this, because it will make the emergency services’ job an awful lot easier. 5060 ______218 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Turner.
Mr Turner: Thank you, Mr President. I think this is a good move, because of course we know the situation we are in at the 5065 moment, where Manx Telecom is now a private company coming out of the auspices of the GPO and BT. A lot of the infrastructure was previously Government funded during those days, so once that company was privatised we ended up in a situation where there was competition. We have seen the same in the United Kingdom with BT. They effectively had a monopoly on the wires in the ground. It does put other competitors at a disadvantage and what this does is 5070 somewhat level the playing field. What I would hope to see is that, if and when Sure decide to install certain apparatus and cabling, we ensure that there are shared ducts in the ground used, because there is a lot of ducting in there, so that we have a co-ordinated approach to digging up the road. Not to go off too much on a tangent, but we have seen before where the road has been dug up by one utility. The Chairman of the Commission has already said that Sure form part 5075 of the Utilities Management Group that co-ordinate all this, so hopefully when there are road schemes, these utility operators, and now if we are adding another one, come together and take advantage of when the surface is opened up. The same with other things, such as telecommunication mast sharing, which we have spoken about in this place many times before. I think this is a good move and, as we have said, what it does is enable operators to operate 5080 more on a level playing field. There is a big row going on at the moment in the UK with BT Open Reach about them having to be split off because of cross-subsidies going on. What we do not want is that same sort of row going on here, so I think this is a good positive move for us. It will enable better competition, and ultimately that will filter down to better pricing for the end user, the consumers and the businesses. 5085 The President: I call on the Chairman to reply.
The Chairman: Thank you, Mr President. Referring to the Member for Ramsey first, this particular motion is purely and simply to allow 5090 them to dig the roads up. I am very much aware of what he is talking about with the caller reply, and that is a discussion we can have at another time. I think the Member of Council, Mr Turner, is correct. Anything that puts fairer competition into the supply has got to be done. With regard to the roads and the ducting, as I said in the opening remarks, they are going to 5095 have to be part of the Joint Utilities Group and the Strategic Infrastructure Group, which really falls into the DoI. So before they can go digging anything up or doing anything they have to consult with the DoI and the same regulations will apply to them as they do to Manx Utilities, Manx Gas and Manx Telecom. This is only giving them the permission to actually start digging the roads up or going onto private land to lay these cables. 5100 With that, I beg to move, Mr President.
The President: Hon. Members, I put the motion at Item 28. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.
29. Pedlars and Street Traders Act 1906; Local Government Act 1985 – Parish of Marown Pedlars and Street Traders Licence Fee Byelaws 2016 – Motion not moved
The Minister for Infrastructure to move:
______219 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
That the Parish of Marown Pedlars and Street Traders Licence Fee Byelaws 2016 [SD No 2016/0240] [MEMO] be approved.
The President: The Minister for Infrastructure has indicated he will not be moving Item 29 at 5105 this sitting.
30. Financial Services Act 2008 – Financial Services Rule Book 2016 approved
The Minister for the Treasury to move:
That the Financial Services Rule Book 2016 [SD No 2016/0264] [MEMO] be approved.
The President: We move to Item 30, the Financial Services Act, and I call on the Minister for the Treasury to move.
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, the Isle of Man Financial Services 5110 Authority is empowered by section 18 and schedule 3(2) of the Financial Services Act 2008 to make the Financial Services Rule Book. The Financial Services Rule Book, which I shall call ‘the Rule Book’, is the principal means by which the Isle of Man Financial Services Authority, which I shall now call ‘the Authority’, imposes requirements upon its licence holders under the Financial Services Act 2008. 5115 The Financial Services Rule Book 2016 revokes and replaces the Financial Services Rule Book 2013. The Authority has typically revised the Rule Book every two to three years so as to reflect international legislative or finance sector developments. Whilst there are no major policy changes in the 2016 Rule Book, it introduces a new and simpler tabular format, replacing the previous narrative format. 5120 The other principal change amends the requirements for reporting by auditors on the adequacy of licence holders’ control of clients’ money and investments. This is designed to improve monitoring of such assets for the benefit of customers. Additionally, new controls are introduced over nominee bank accounts, again to provide better protection for clients’ funds. 5125 Lesser changes will require licence holders to have internal whistleblowing policies so that staff of licence holders can disclose wrongdoings, specify new roles for money transmission businesses, relax reporting on professional indemnity insurance and clarify certain requirements and terms. The Authority carried out a full public consultation on the draft Financial Services Rule Book 5130 2016 from April to June of this year and received 19 responses, including three from licence holders’ associations. I can inform the Court that no respondents disagreed with the format change which the Authority considers will be helpful to all users. Comments on the changes to requirements about monitoring clients’ money were mainly 5135 limited to concerns about detail and cost. The Authority has therefore revised these proposals so as to reduce costs but without greatly increasing risk. Some operational details of clients’ money monitoring and review are procedural instead of legislative and have been the subject of separate discussions. Some respondents sought lower time limits for submitting financial statements and returns 5140 to the Authority, but the Authority believes that timely submission of financial data is a key method of mitigating risk so it did not accede to this request. Nevertheless, in situations where timely data is less critical, the Authority has relaxed some time limits. ______220 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
Some respondents queried the new whistleblowing policy, which is designed to reflect Government policy and forthcoming changes to public interest disclosures under employment 5145 law. Other comments related to clarification of terms, some of which the Authority has revised as a result. Due to the length of the Rule Book, nearly 300 pages, Members’ permission was sought for the Rule Book to be circulated electronically. I beg to move that the Financial Services Rule Book 2016 be approved. 5150 Mr Peake: Mr President, I beg to second and reserve my remarks.
The President: I put the motion under Item 30 in the name of the Treasury Minister. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.
31. Income Tax Act 1970 – Taxes (Turks and Caicos Islands) Order 2016 approved
The Minister for the Treasury to move:
That the Taxes (Turks and Caicos Islands) Order 2016 [SD No 2016/0263] [MEMO] be approved.
5155 The President: Item 31, Income Tax Act 1970, Minister for the Treasury to move.
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, at the end of last year the government of the Turks and Caicos Islands signed a Tax Information Exchange Agreement with the Government of the Isle of Man. The agreement was then sent to the Isle of Man and signed 5160 in August on behalf of the Isle of Man Government by the then Treasury Minister, Eddie Teare. The signing of this agreement will enable the two countries to share information automatically in accordance with the OECD Common Reporting Standard, the new global standard for tax information exchange to which both countries are committed. Once the agreement has entered into force, automatic exchange of account information in accordance with the standard will 5165 commence in 2017 for data collected in 2016. This is the Island’s 37th such agreement and, together with its 10 Double Taxation Agreements, is the 47th agreement that meets the OECD International Standard on Tax Co- operation and Transparency. The signing of these agreements further strengthens our reputation as a responsible and co-operative jurisdiction. 5170 Mr President, to ratify this agreement an Order must be approved by this Hon. Court. The schedule to the Order includes the text of the agreement. If this Court considers it right to approve the Order, the Chief Minister will write to the government of the Turks and Caicos Islands to inform them that we have completed our ratification procedures. Once the Turks and Caicos Islands have carried out a similar process, the agreement will enter into force in 5175 accordance with the entry into force article. I beg to move.
The President: Mr Peake.
5180 Mr Peake: Mr President, I beg to second and reserve my remarks.
The President: I put the motion under Item 31 in the name of the Treasury Minister. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. ______221 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
32. Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1986 – Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1986 (Amendment) Order 2016 approved
The Minister for the Treasury to move:
That the Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1986 (Amendment) Order 2016 [SD No 2016/0269] [MEMO] be approved.
The President: Item 32, please, Mr Cannan. 5185 The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, this Order amends the Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1986 to allow for the introduction of a new rate of Excise Duty on the use of aqua-methanol as a road fuel or when used in engines and motors in the same way as a mineral oil. Aqua-methanol is a mixture of 95% methanol and 5% water and is considered to 5190 be a more environmentally friendly type of fuel. It is therefore entitled to a reduced rate of 7.9 pence per litre. The Act is also amended to allow for treatment of aqua-methanol in the same way as mineral oils and to penalise its misuse. I beg to move.
5195 The President: Mr Peake.
Mr Peake: Mr President, I beg to second and reserve my remarks.
The President: I put the motion at Item 32. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The 5200 ayes have it. The ayes have it.
33. Customs and Excise Act 1993 – Customs and Excise Acts (Application) (Amendment) (No.2) Order 2016 approved
The Minister for the Treasury to move:
That the Customs and Excise Acts (Application) (Amendment) (No.2) Order 2016 [SD No 2016/0272] [MEMO] be approved.
The President: Item 33, Mr Cannan.
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, this Order makes amendments to two schedules to the Customs and Excise Acts Order 1979 to apply in Island law changes that 5205 correspond to equivalent changes contained in the Finance Act 2016 in the United Kingdom. The changes made are consequential to the introduction of a new Excise Duty rate and control regime for the use of aqua-methanol as an engine and road fuel. Aqua-methanol, as I have already explained is approximately 95% methanol and 5% water. The amendment made by this Order allows for an appeal to the independent VAT and Duties Tribunal against a civil 5210 penalty imposed for the use of aqua-methanol on which duty has not been paid and the imposition of a civil penalty where aqua-methanol has been used in a mixture that should have a higher duty rate applied to it. I beg to move.
5215 The President: Mr Peake.
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Mr Peake: Mr President, I beg to second and reserve my remarks.
The President: I put the question under Item 33. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. 5220 The ayes have it. The ayes have it.
34. Customs and Excise Management Act 1986 – Customs and Excise Management Act 1986 (Amendment) (No.2) Order 2016 approved
The Minister for the Treasury to move:
That the Customs and Excise Management Act 1986 (Amendment) (No.2) Order 2016 [SD No 2016/0273] [MEMO] be approved.
The President: Item 34, Minister for the Treasury.
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, this Order amends schedules 2A and 3 to the Customs and Excise Management Act 1986 to make a straightforward practical 5225 change to the requirements when a customs officer detains or seizes goods. Schedule 2A is concerned with the situation where goods are detained, and schedule 3 where they are seized as being liable to forfeiture under the Customs and Excise Act. The changes enable an officer to treat the driver of a vehicle or someone in a comparable position as if he or she were the representative of the owner of any goods involved and issue the 5230 required legal notice of detention or seizure to that person if necessary. I beg to move.
The President: Mr Peake.
5235 Mr Peake: Mr President, I beg to second and reserve my remarks.
The President: I put the motion under Item 34. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.
35. Value Added Tax Act 1996 – Value Added Tax Act 1996 (Amendment) Order 2016 approved
The Minister for the Treasury to move:
That the Value Added Tax Act 1996 (Amendment) Order 2016 [SD No 2016/0274] [MEMO] be approved.
The President: Item 35, Minister for the Treasury. 5240 The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, this Order makes various amendments to the Value Added Tax Act 1996 which correspond to those made to the equivalent United Kingdom legislation by the Finance Act 2016. The Order also makes a further amendment which corresponds to a pre-existing United 5245 Kingdom provision which enables the Island to better accommodate international tax
______223 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
agreements that involve VAT and which bring the Island and UK provisions in this area more closely into alignment. The new section 77B supplements existing arrangements for mutual assistance and mutual recovery in VAT with the United Kingdom and other EU member states. Most of the substantive 5250 changes made to the Value Added Tax Act 1996 are chiefly designed to protect existing revenue and prevent abuse and avoidance. Section 48 of the Act is amended to give the Treasury the power to direct a taxable person who is not established in the European Union to appoint a representative who would then be responsible for all their VAT affairs, including liability for any VAT due. 5255 New sections 77C to 77E provide for joint and several liability of the operators of an online market place for any VAT on goods sold in the Island via such a market place by an overseas business. I beg to move.
5260 The President: Mr Peake.
Mr Peake: Mr President, I beg to second and reserve my remarks.
The President: I put the motion under Item 35. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. 5265 The ayes have it. The ayes have it.
36. Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 – Child Benefit (Rates) (Amendment) Regulations 2016 approved
The Minister for the Treasury to move:
That the Child Benefit (Rates) (Amendment) Regulations 2016 [SD No 2016/0303] [MEMO] be approved.
The President: Item 36, Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act. I call on the Minister for the Treasury.
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, these Regulations revoke 5270 redundant provision in the Child Benefit (Rates) Regulations 2013 and also make consequential amendments. These amendments are by way of housekeeping and do not change policy in any respect. Further information is provided in the memorandum which has been circulated to Hon. Members. Mr President, I beg to move the Item numbered 36 on the Order Paper. 5275 The President: Mr Henderson.
Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. I beg to second and reserve my remarks.
5280 The President: I put the motion at Item 36. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.
______224 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
37.-38. Social Security Act 2000 – Jobseekers Act 1995 (Application) (Amendment) Order 2016 approved – Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 (Application) (Amendment) (No.4) Order 2016 approved
The Minister for the Treasury to move:
37. That the Jobseekers Act 1995 (Application) (Amendment) Order 2016 [SD No 2016/0304] [MEMO] be approved.
38. That the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 (Application) (Amendment) (No.4) Order 2016 [SD No 2016/0305] [MEMO] be approved.
The President: The Minister has indicated he would like to move the next two motions, Items 37 and 38, together and vote on them separately. Is that agreed? (Members: Agreed.) 5285 Mr Cannan.
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, I am asking Hon. Members to note that I am moving these together, as you have already said, as they are concerned with the definition of ‘Isle of Man’ worker for the purposes of income-related Social Security benefits. 5290 They will then be voted on separately, again as agreed. To qualify for an income-based Job Seeker’s Allowance, Income Support or Employed Person’s Allowance, a person must, among other things, be an Isle of Man worker within the respective definitions given by the Jobseekers Act 1995 and the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 as those Acts of the United Kingdom Parliament have effect in the Island. 5295 The term ‘Isle of Man worker’, for the purposes of the Social Security benefits I have just mentioned, has the meaning as in the Island’s work permit legislation, subject to two exceptions which are explained in the memorandum which has been circulated to Hon. Members. A new definition of an Isle of Man worker in both the Jobseekers Act and the Contributions and Benefits Act replaces references to the categories of persons who are Isle of Man workers under 5300 the now defunct Control of Employment Act 1975 with references to the equivalent categories of persons under its replacement – that is the Control of Employment Act 2014. These changes will ensure the relevant Social Security legislation remains accurate and up to date. Mr President, I beg to move the Items numbered 37 and 38 on the Order Paper.
5305 The President: Mr Henderson.
Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. I beg to second and reserve my remarks.
The President: I first put Item 37. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have 5310 it. The ayes have it. Item 38: those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.
39. Social Security Act 2000 – Social Security Legislation (Benefits) (Application) (Amendment) (No.5) Order 2016 approved
The Minister for the Treasury to move:
______225 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
That the Social Security Legislation (Benefits) (Application) (Amendment) (No.5) Order 2016 [SD No 2016/0307] [MEMO] be approved.
The President: Item 39, Treasury Minister.
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, this Order amends two sets of 5315 Social Security regulations as they have effect in the Island. These are the Social Security (Credits) Regulations 1975 and the Jobseeker’s Allowance Regulations 1996. Most of the changes to the Social Security (Credits) Regulations are made as a consequence of the replacement of Disability Working Allowance and Family Income Supplement with Employed Person’s Allowance in January 2012. 5320 The Jobseeker’s Allowance Regulations are amended to provide that any care component of Disability Living Allowance to which a person claiming Jobseeker’s Allowance or their partner is entitled is to be fully disregarded for Jobseeker’s Allowance purposes, as is any Attendance Allowance for which the partner of a person claiming Jobseeker’s Allowance is entitled. Other changes update references to out-of-date legislation appearing in the Credits 5325 Regulations and correct a minor error in the Jobseeker’s Allowance Regulations. All of these changes are by way of housekeeping and do not change policy in any respect. Mr President, I beg to move the Item numbered 39 on the Order Paper.
The President: Mr Henderson. 5330 Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. I beg to second and reserve my remarks.
The President: I put the motion at Item 39. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.
40. Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 – Exceptional Needs Grants and Budgeting Loans (Amendment) (No.2) Regulations 2016 approved
The Minister for the Treasury to move:
That the Exceptional Needs Grants and Budgeting Loans (Amendment) (No.2) Regulations 2016 [SD No 2016/0308] [MEMO] be approved.
5335 The President: Item 40, Mr Cannan.
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, these Regulations make a number of miscellaneous amendments to the Income Support and Jobseeker’s Allowance Exceptional Needs Grants and Budgeting Loans Regulations 2003 to ensure they remain accurate and up to 5340 date. Further information is provided in the memorandum which has been circulated to Hon. Members. Mr President, I beg to move the Item numbered 40 on the Order Paper.
The President: Mr Henderson. 5345 Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. I beg to second and reserve my remarks.
______226 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
The President: I put the motion at Item 40. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.
41. Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 – Maternity and Funeral Expenses (General) (Isle of Man) (Amendment) Regulations 2016 approved
The Minister for the Treasury to move:
That the Maternity and Funeral Expenses (General) (Isle of Man) (Amendment) Regulations 2016 [SD No 2016/0309] [MEMO] be approved.
5350 The President: Item 41, Mr Cannan.
Mr Cannan: Mr President, these Regulations make a number of miscellaneous amendments to the Maternity and Funeral Expenses (General) (Isle of Man) (Amendment) Regulations 2007 to ensure they remain accurate and up to date. 5355 Further information is provided in the memorandum which has been circulated to Hon. Members. Mr President, I beg to move the Item numbered 41 on the Order Paper.
The President: Mr Henderson. 5360 Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. I beg to second and reserve my remarks.
The President: I put the motion at Item 41. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.
42. Social Security Act 2000 – TV Licence Payment Order 2016 approved
The Minister for the Treasury to move:
That the TV Licence Payment Order 2016 [SD No 2016/0320] [MEMO] be approved.
5365 The President: Item 42, Mr Cannan.
Mr Cannan: Mr President, this Order will enable Treasury to make payments to certain persons aged 75 or over, irrespective of their resources, equal to the full cost of their TV licences following this Hon. Court’s resolution last month to restore the policy of free television licences 5370 for those aged 75 or over, with immediate effect through a rebate scheme. The Order also continues the provision whereby persons who have reached state pension age but are under 75 and who are getting Income Support or income-based Jobseeker’s Allowance will also qualify for a payment covering the cost of their TV licence. This was previously provided for in the TV Licence Refund Scheme 1990, which is replaced in this Order. 5375 Particular provision is made in the Order; firstly, for people aged 75 or over, who have paid for their licences since 1st September 2016, to receive payment from the Treasury for the full cost of that licence; and secondly for people who are aged 74 when they pay for their licence, ______227 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
but the period of the licence extends beyond their 75th birthday, to receive a pro rata payment from the Treasury. 5380 In order to qualify for a TV licence payment, eligible persons will need to complete a straightforward claim form and take or send that claim form together with their TV licence renewal notice or the TV licence itself if they have already paid for it, to Markwell House. Social Security will then make a payment to them in the same way as they are paid their state pension, whether that be through their bank account or through their MyCard at the post office. 5385 Ordinarily, eligible persons will need to make a claim for a payment each year around the time their licence is due for renewal. The fact that they can make a claim on production of their renewal notice will mean they will not have to find the money for the licence upfront themselves. Mr President, reinstating this help for the over-75s will cost around £600,000 a year and will 5390 be paid for out of general revenue. This will be funded initially out of savings arising from less being spent on Income Support and income-based Jobseeker’s Allowance than anticipated in this financial year. Further information is provided in the memorandum which has been circulated to Hon. Members. 5395 Mr President, I beg to move the Item numbered 42 on the Order Paper.
The President: Mr Henderson.
Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. I beg to second and reserve my remarks. 5400 The President: Hon. Member, Mr Cretney.
Mr Cretney: Yes, thank you. I would like to congratulate the Council of Ministers for delivering on the Chief Minister’s 5405 promise when he was put into office and they were put into office. However, there is one point that remains. I have had correspondence, and I thank the Treasury Minister for his assistance with this, but what he is saying, and he has repeated it again tonight, is that people who are claiming for this will either have to attend upon Markwell House or post the form to Markwell House. I understood that that was going to be available at the post office as well. Is he saying 5410 now that that is not an option and it is only via Markwell House? Again, I do thank him for making such quick progress on this.
The President: Hon. Member, Mr Turner.
5415 Mr Turner: Thank you very much, Mr President. I support this motion, but at the same time this is something that we have had to bring in because of a mess that was made (Mr Cretney: Hear, hear.) previously. What we have here, rightly, is we have restored this back to the citizens, namely the over- 75s. However, of course, it says in the explanatory memorandum that the cost of the payments 5420 is to be paid out of money provided by Tynwald. I would much prefer to be reading the line ‘The cost of this is to be paid out of money provided by the BBC’, which is where the United Kingdom is going with this – but on the Isle of Man we are still here funding it ourselves. So I would like to ask the Minister – whilst this is an excellent Order to be bringing to the Court, one I am sure we all support – what is currently being done to ensure that this is a short-term fix to this problem 5425 and that the costs going forward are going to be met by the BBC as they are for the citizens in the adjacent island of the United Kingdom? As we found out in the long debate last month, this was a result of the Isle of Man asking the United Kingdom to cancel the arrangement that was previously in place, which was quite bizarre. So, whilst we support this to get things up and running, can we have assurance that this ______228 T134 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016
5430 is a short-term measure and that, in that progressing way that the UK are going to be doing, the costs will eventually be met in full by the BBC?
The President: I call on the Minister to reply.
5435 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. First of all, to the Hon. Member of the Legislative Council, Mr Cretney, my understanding is that a form can in fact be submitted at the post office but will still ultimately have to go to Markwell House, but I will circulate a confirmed document letter to all Members to confirm that position in terms of how it will operate via the post office. 5440 Secondly, the Hon. Member says this is a short-term fix and it ultimately should be paid for by the BBC. Well, it is a short-term fix, in that this arrangement will only stay in place until 2020, once we understand exactly how the BBC is going to fund its requirements as indicated by the UK government at the moment. That position remains unclear. We will be watching developments extremely closely and we will intend at that stage, in 2020, to be bringing into 5445 operation the same arrangements that will be brought into force in the United Kingdom, which at the moment remain unclear.
The President: Hon. Members, I put the question as set out at Item 42 in the name of the Minister for the Treasury. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes 5450 have it. Hon. Members, that brings us to the end of the Order Paper. May I thank you for your co- operation in getting through the business before us in a manner that was both timely but also thorough. The Council will now withdraw and leave the House of Keys to transact such business as 5455 Mr Speaker may place before it.
The Council withdrew.
House of Keys
The Speaker: Hon. Members, before adjourning the House, could I congratulate those Members who made their maiden speeches today. (Several Members: Hear, hear.) Can I then adjourn the House until next Tuesday, 22nd November, at 10 a.m. in our own Chamber. Thank you.
The House adjourned at 7.21 p.m.
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