First Session, 40th Parliament
OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY
(HANSARD)
Monday, July 8, 2013 Aft ernoon Sitting Volume 2, Number 2
THE HONOURABLE LINDA REID, SPEAKER
ISSN 0709-1281 (Print) ISSN 1499-2175 (Online) PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)
LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Her Honour the Honourable Judith Guichon, OBC
First Session, 40th Parliament
SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Linda Reid
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL
Premier and President of the Executive Council ...... Hon. Christy Clark Deputy Premier and Minister of Natural Gas Development and Minister Responsible for Housing ...... Hon. Rich Coleman Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation ...... Hon. John Rustad Minister of Advanced Education ...... Hon. Amrik Virk Minister of Agriculture ...... Hon. Pat Pimm Minister of Children and Family Development ...... Hon. Stephanie Cadieux Minister of Community, Sport and Cultural Development ...... Hon. Coralee Oakes Minister of Education ...... Hon. Peter Fassbender Minister of Energy and Mines and Minister Responsible for Core Review ...... Hon. Bill Bennett Minister of Environment ...... Hon. Mary Polak Minister of Finance ...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Minister of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations...... Hon. Steve Th omson Minister of Health ...... Hon. Dr. Terry Lake Minister of International Trade and Minister Responsible for Asia Pacifi c Strategy and Multiculturalism ...... Hon. Teresa Wat Minister of Jobs, Tourism and Skills Training and Minister Responsible for Labour ...... Hon. Shirley Bond Minister of State for Tourism and Small Business ...... Hon. Naomi Yamamoto Minister of Justice ...... Hon. Suzanne Anton Minister of Social Development and Social Innovation...... Hon. Don McRae Minister of Technology, Innovation and Citizens' Services ...... Hon. Andrew Wilkinson Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure ...... Hon. Todd Stone
LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY
Leader of the Offi cial Opposition ...... Adrian Dix Deputy Speaker ...... Douglas Horne Assistant Deputy Speaker ...... Raj Chouhan Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ...... Marc Dalton Clerk of the Legislative Assembly ...... Craig James Deputy Clerk and Clerk of Committees ...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sessional Law Clerk ...... Roderick MacArthur, QC Clerk Consultant ...... E. George MacMinn, OBC, QC Sergeant-at-Arms ...... Gary Lenz ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING
Anton, Hon. Suzanne (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Fraserview Abbotsford-Mission ...... Simon Gibson Ashton, Dan (BC Liberal)...... Penticton Abbotsford South ...... Darryl Plecas Austin, Robin (NDP) ...... Skeena Abbotsford West ...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Bains, Harry (NDP) ...... Surrey-Newton Alberni–Pacifi c Rim ...... Scott Fraser Barnett, Donna (BC Liberal) ...... Cariboo-Chilcotin Boundary-Similkameen ...... Linda Larson Bennett, Hon. Bill (BC Liberal) ...... Kootenay East Burnaby–Deer Lake ...... Kathy Corrigan Bernier, Mike (BC Liberal) ...... Peace River South Burnaby-Edmonds ...... Raj Chouhan Bing, Dr. Doug (BC Liberal) ...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Burnaby-Lougheed ...... Jane Jae Kyung Shin Bond, Hon. Shirley (BC Liberal) ...... Prince George–Valemount Burnaby North ...... Richard T. Lee Cadieux, Hon. Stephanie (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Cloverdale Cariboo-Chilcotin ...... Donna Barnett Chandra Herbert, Spencer (NDP) ...... Vancouver–West End Cariboo North ...... Hon. Coralee Oakes Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ...... Burnaby-Edmonds Chilliwack ...... John Martin Coleman, Hon. Rich (BC Liberal) ...... Fort Langley–Aldergrove Chilliwack-Hope ...... Laurie Th roness Conroy, Katrine (NDP) ...... Kootenay West Columbia River–Revelstoke ...... Norm Macdonald Corrigan, Kathy (NDP) ...... Burnaby–Deer Lake Comox Valley...... Hon. Don McRae Dalton, Marc (BC Liberal) ...... Maple Ridge–Mission Coquitlam–Burke Mountain ...... Douglas Horne Darcy, Judy (NDP) ...... New Westminster Coquitlam-Maillardville...... Selina Robinson de Jong, Hon. Michael, QC (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford West Cowichan Valley ...... Bill Routley Dix, Adrian (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Kingsway Delta North ...... Scott Hamilton Donaldson, Doug (NDP) ...... Stikine Delta South ...... Vicki Huntington Eby, David (NDP) ...... Vancouver–Point Grey Esquimalt–Royal Roads ...... Maurine Karagianis Elmore, Mable (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Kensington Fort Langley–Aldergrove ...... Hon. Rich Coleman Farnworth, Mike (NDP) ...... Port Coquitlam Fraser-Nicola...... Jackie Tegart Fassbender, Hon. Peter (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Fleetwood Juan de Fuca ...... John Horgan Fleming, Rob (NDP) ...... Victoria–Swan Lake Kamloops–North Th ompson ...... Hon. Dr. Terry Lake Foster, Eric (BC Liberal) ...... Vernon-Monashee Kamloops–South Th ompson ...... Hon. Todd Stone Fraser, Scott (NDP) ...... Alberni–Pacifi c Rim Kelowna–Lake Country ...... Norm Letnick Gibson, Simon (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford-Mission Kelowna-Mission ...... Hon. Steve Th omson Hamilton, Scott (BC Liberal) ...... Delta North Kootenay East ...... Hon. Bill Bennett Hammell, Sue (NDP) ...... Surrey–Green Timbers Kootenay West ...... Katrine Conroy Heyman, George (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Fairview Langley...... Hon. Mary Polak Hogg, Gordon (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey–White Rock Maple Ridge–Mission ...... Marc Dalton Holman, Gary (NDP) ...... Saanich North and the Islands Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows ...... Dr. Doug Bing Horgan, John (NDP) ...... Juan de Fuca Nanaimo ...... Leonard Eugene Krog Horne, Douglas (BC Liberal) ...... Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Nanaimo–North Cowichan ...... Doug Routley Hunt, Marvin (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Panorama Nechako Lakes ...... Hon. John Rustad Huntington, Vicki (Ind.) ...... Delta South Nelson-Creston ...... Michelle Mungall James, Carole (NDP) ...... Victoria–Beacon Hill New Westminster ...... Judy Darcy Karagianis, Maurine (NDP) ...... Esquimalt–Royal Roads North Coast...... Jennifer Rice Krog, Leonard Eugene (NDP) ...... Nanaimo North Island ...... Claire Trevena Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP) ...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant North Vancouver–Lonsdale ...... Hon. Naomi Yamamoto Kyllo, Greg (BC Liberal) ...... Shuswap North Vancouver–Seymour ...... Jane Th ornthwaite Lake, Hon. Dr. Terry (BC Liberal) ...... Kamloops–North Th ompson Oak Bay–Gordon Head ...... Dr. Andrew Weaver Larson, Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Boundary-Similkameen Parksville-Qualicum ...... Michelle Stilwell Lee, Richard T. (BC Liberal) ...... Burnaby North Peace River North ...... Hon. Pat Pimm Letnick, Norm (BC Liberal) ...... Kelowna–Lake Country Peace River South ...... Mike Bernier Macdonald, Norm (NDP) ...... Columbia River–Revelstoke Penticton...... Dan Ashton McRae, Hon. Don (BC Liberal) ...... Comox Valley Port Coquitlam ...... Mike Farnworth Martin, John (BC Liberal) ...... Chilliwack Port Moody–Coquitlam ...... Linda Reimer Morris, Mike (BC Liberal) ...... Prince George–Mackenzie Powell River–Sunshine Coast ...... Nicholas Simons Mungall, Michelle (NDP) ...... Nelson-Creston Prince George–Mackenzie ...... Mike Morris Oakes, Hon. Coralee (BC Liberal) ...... Cariboo North Prince George–Valemount ...... Hon. Shirley Bond Pimm, Hon. Pat (BC Liberal) ...... Peace River North Richmond Centre ...... Hon. Teresa Wat Plecas, Darryl (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford South Richmond East ...... Hon. Linda Reid Polak, Hon. Mary (BC Liberal) ...... Langley Richmond-Steveston ...... John Yap Popham, Lana (NDP) ...... Saanich South Saanich North and the Islands ...... Gary Holman Ralston, Bruce (NDP) ...... Surrey-Whalley Saanich South ...... Lana Popham Reid, Hon. Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond East Shuswap ...... Greg Kyllo Reimer, Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Port Moody–Coquitlam Skeena ...... Robin Austin Rice, Jennifer (NDP) ...... North Coast Stikine ...... Doug Donaldson Robinson, Selina (NDP) ...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Surrey-Cloverdale ...... Hon. Stephanie Cadieux Routley, Bill (NDP) ...... Cowichan Valley Surrey-Fleetwood ...... Hon. Peter Fassbender Routley, Doug (NDP) ...... Nanaimo–North Cowichan Surrey–Green Timbers ...... Sue Hammell Rustad, Hon. John (BC Liberal) ...... Nechako Lakes Surrey-Newton ...... Harry Bains Shin, Jane Jae Kyung (NDP) ...... Burnaby-Lougheed Surrey-Panorama ...... Marvin Hunt Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Surrey-Tynehead ...... Hon. Amrik Virk Simpson, Shane (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Hastings Surrey-Whalley...... Bruce Ralston Stilwell, Michelle (BC Liberal) ...... Parksville-Qualicum Surrey–White Rock ...... Gordon Hogg Stilwell, Dr. Moira (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Langara Vancouver-Fairview ...... George Heyman Stone, Hon. Todd (BC Liberal) ...... Kamloops–South Th ompson Vancouver–False Creek ...... Sam Sullivan Sturdy, Jordan (BC Liberal) ...... West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Vancouver-Fraserview ...... Hon. Suzanne Anton Sullivan, Sam (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver–False Creek Vancouver-Hastings ...... Shane Simpson Sultan, Ralph (BC Liberal) ...... West Vancouver–Capilano Vancouver-Kensington ...... Mable Elmore Tegart, Jackie (BC Liberal) ...... Fraser-Nicola Vancouver-Kingsway...... Adrian Dix Th omson, Hon. Steve (BC Liberal) ...... Kelowna-Mission Vancouver-Langara ...... Dr. Moira Stilwell Th ornthwaite, Jane (BC Liberal) ...... North Vancouver–Seymour Vancouver–Mount Pleasant ...... Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Th roness, Laurie (BC Liberal)...... Chilliwack-Hope Vancouver–Point Grey ...... David Eby Trevena, Claire (NDP) ...... North Island Vancouver-Quilchena ...... Hon. Andrew Wilkinson Virk, Hon. Amrik (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Tynehead Vancouver–West End ...... Spencer Chandra Herbert Wat, Hon. Teresa (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond Centre Vernon-Monashee ...... Eric Foster Weaver, Dr. Andrew (Ind.) ...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Victoria–Beacon Hill ...... Carole James Wilkinson, Hon. Andrew (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Quilchena Victoria–Swan Lake...... Rob Fleming Yamamoto, Hon. Naomi (BC Liberal) ...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale West Vancouver–Capilano ...... Ralph Sultan Yap, John (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond-Steveston West Vancouver–Sea to Sky ...... Jordan Sturdy Vacant ...... Westside-Kelowna Westside-Kelowna ...... Vacant
Party Standings: BC Liberal 48; New Democratic 34; Independent 2; Vacant 1
CONTENTS
Monday, July 8, 2013 Aft ernoon Sitting
Page
Routine Business
Introductions by Members ...... 205
Statements (Standing Order 25B) ...... 205 Funtastic Sports Society in Vernon E. Foster Stories of Air India victims' families H. Bains Soccer activities on North Shore J. Th ornthwaite Diversity Health Fair C. James Websters Corners heritage and Finnish community in Maple Ridge M. Dalton Korean War J. Shin
Oral Questions ...... 207 Electricity rates J. Horgan Hon. B. Bennett Government action on child poverty C. James Hon. S. Cadieux Core review and status of programs for children S. Simpson Hon. S. Cadieux Funding for health authorities J. Darcy Hon. T. Lake Health outreach program in New Westminster J. Darcy Hon. T. Lake Funding for community mental health services S. Hammell Hon. T. Lake Health care funding and services S. Hammell Hon. T. Lake Th e Art Studios therapy program in east Vancouver M. Elmore Hon. T. Lake
Tabling Documents ...... 211 Offi ce of the Registrar of Lobbyists for British Columbia, investigation report on lobbying activities of Joe Fieder Offi ce of the Registrar of Lobbyists for British Columbia, report on request for reconsideration of penalty imposed on Joe Fieder
Motions Without Notice ...... 212 Powers and role of Finance and Government Services Committee Powers and role of Public Accounts Committee Powers and role of Children and Youth Committee Appointment of Special Committee to Appoint an Auditor General Hon. M. de Jong Orders of the Day
Budget Debate (continued) ...... 213 Hon. M. de Jong
Motions Without Notice ...... 215 Committee of Supply to sit in two sections Hon. M. de Jong
Committee of Supply ...... 216 Estimates: Ministry of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations Hon. S. Th omson N. Macdonald B. Routley A. Weaver
Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room
Committee of Supply ...... 234 Estimates: Ministry of Social Development and Social Innovation Hon. D. McRae M. Mungall 205
MONDAY, JULY 8, 2013 with 298 teams from Alberta, B.C., and even a team that was registered and took part from Iqaluit. Th e House met at 1:33 p.m. Th e tournament each year brings about $4.5 million in economic benefi t into our community, which is the [Madame Speaker in the chair.] largest such event, certainly in our area and probably in the province. Fundraised by partners, agencies, vol- Routine Business unteers, we got $32,000 this year. Th ey got just a shade under $30,000 last year. Th ey include sports organiza- Introductions by Members tions, the Lions Club, junior chamber of commerce and so on. Th e Funtastic community grant was established a C. James: I have two guests in the gallery today from few years ago, and they've given out $129,000, supporting an extraordinary organization in Victoria that I'll have organizations such as the Schubert Centre, Kindale a little more to say about later. Th e fi rst person is Jean Developmental Association, Vernon and district riding McRae, who is the executive director from the Inter- association, Pacifi cSport. Forty-three local non-profi t or- Cultural Association. Th e second individual is the chair ganizations have received funding over the last few years. of the board of the Inter-Cultural Association but also Th is was another successful year for the agency. I'd like someone who is very well known to me — my best sup- to thank the partners for Funtastic: the Department of port, my mentor, my role model — my mother, Mavis National Defence, the RCMP, the city of Vernon work- DeGirolamo. Will the House please make them very ers and the more than 500 local volunteers. But for me, welcome. the highlight this year was Sunday evening, when the Funtastic Sports Society along with Julian Austin, inter- Hon. A. Virk: It's my pleasure to have three guests in nationally known Canadian country artist, paid tribute the House today. If I may introduce my three daughters. to our veterans and members of the military. Lt. Col. First, a few words about them. Th ey're up at the top here. Lyle Johnson and 20 members of the military, many of My oldest is Jusleen. Th ey all manage volunteering, them decorated soldiers from Afghanistan, joined the sport, education at the same time. She's on Team Canada country music artist on stage, and a tribute was given to in karate, Canadian champion, Pan Am champion and those soldiers. gives back to the community — Jusleen Virk. If the I would like to thank all of the members of the House would welcome her, please. Funtastic Sports Society and the great work they do in My daughter Anisha volunteers at Surrey Memorial our community. Hospital Foundation and goes to university, teaches kar- ate and is on Team Canada as well. If the House would STORIES OF welcome Anisha Virk, please. AIR INDIA VICTIMS' FAMILIES My youngest daughter keeps me very busy by asking a lot of questions. I would ask the House to welcome my H. Bains: Last week I had the opportunity to attend a youngest daughter, Maansi Virk. book release ceremony by Gurpreet Singh. Th e Punjabi [1335] version of the book called Fighting Hatred with Love: Voices of the Air India Victims' Families was released by Hon. D. McRae: My daughter is not in the House to- the Khalsa Diwan Society vice-president Major Singh day, but today she is celebrating her tenth birthday. So Sidhu, who lost his sister, a niece and a nephew in this would the House please give Gracie McRae a happy birth- tragedy. day and a good, warm welcome. Th is book is not about the Air India investigation or its outcome or the political background of the tragedy but Statements is a simple collection of interviews with 12 of the victims' (Standing Order 25B) families. Th e idea is to let people understand why it is im- portant to hear their stories and discover their beautiful FUNTASTIC SPORTS SOCIETY minds and kind hearts. Translated by Pawan Gulati and IN VERNON published by India-based Chetna Parkashan, Nafrat Sang Piyar Di Jang is about testimonies from Air India victims' E. Foster: I rise today to thank a dedicated group of families who are now engaged in philanthropy and have volunteers in my riding. Th e Funtastic Sports Society turned their grief into kindness. hosts Canada's biggest and best sports music festival. Among them are Dr. Chandrasekhar Sankurathri Th e group of 500 volunteers, led by executive director and Dr. A.V. Anantaraman, who have migrated back to Jim McEwan and society president Brett Kirkpatrick, India and are currently running free schools and hospi- along with the dedicated executive, held the 29th annu- tals for the poor and destitute. Both these men lost their al Funtastic ball tournament this past July long weekend, wives and children in the Air India bombing that left 331 206 British Columbia Debates Monday, July 8, 2013
people dead. DIVERSITY HEALTH FAIR Fabian Dawson, deputy editor-in-chief of the Province newspaper summed it up. "In this book Gurpreet tells a C. James: Better lifestyles mean better health and story of a tragedy through the lives of the families who well-being. It's a message that's important for all British lost their loved ones to a terrorist attack that killed 329 Columbians, but not everyone is able to access programs people aboard Air India fl ight 182 and two at the Narita and services that help them to make better choices and airport in Japan." live healthier lives. Th is is especially so for newcomers, He points out with his stories that it is those who live who may not have a support network or speak fl uent with their loss that triumphed over evil. Th ey have won; English. Th at's where initiatives like the Diversity Health the terrorists have lost. Th e beautiful stories of each of Fair come into play. these families inspire hope and optimism for everyone Hosted by the Inter-Cultural Association of Greater in this dangerous world, because they arm you to fi ght Victoria, this free event on June 15 presented ways to hatred with love. prevent chronic diseases through health, wellness, re- [1340] creation, nutrition and healthy living. Participants in- cluded 40 of greater Victoria's local health and wellness SOCCER ACTIVITIES ON NORTH SHORE practitioners, service agencies and organizations that came together to exchange information and promote J. Th ornthwaite: Last Saturday I attended the 2013 healthy living. Girls Provincial B Cup Championships at Inter River Nearly 700 people attended, with the opportunity to Park in North Van. Th ere I was able to fumble the cele- experience a variety of activities, including health work- bratory kickoff for the local Special Olympians as they shops, four fi tness classes and demonstrations, an inter- gear up for the 2013 B.C. Special Olympics Games, com- national food café and an interactive children's activity ing up in Langley. centre. About half of those who attended were families What a soccer weekend it was, as the Vancouver with young children. Nearly a third were seniors and the Whitecaps Football Club beat the Seattle Sounders 2 rest a mix of middle-aged and young adults. to 1 at B.C. Place that evening. In just two years' time It was my pleasure to speak at the opening ceremony, Vancouver will be hosting the 2015 FIFA Women's World and I can tell you that it was fun, interactive and inspiring. Cup. Local businesses and organizations stepped up, too, with The North Shore Girls Soccer Club and the North donations and in-kind support. It was a real commun- Shore Youth Soccer Association were the hosts of the ity eff ort, made possible by the hard work of the Inter- provincial cup this weekend. The North Shore Girls Cultural Association of Greater Victoria. Soccer Club has over 3,500 players registered, from the Th is association provides information, support and age of fi ve and up. In fact, my fi rst foray into politics was tools to help immigrants reach their goals and to help in- as an age group coordinator for the club when my young- dividuals and organizations connect across cultures. Th e est daughter started her illustrious soccer career in 2003. diversity fair is one more in a long list of contributions But I, like thousands of other moms and dads, have been that the intercultural association makes to our commun- volunteering for this and the boys club for several years ity. I ask the members of the House to join with me in as a soccer mom. thanking all of those who came together to deliver an- Last month I attended a retirement party for an amaz- other successful Diversity Health Fair. ing volunteer who demonstrates leadership, wisdom and guidance. Shauna Tucker is retiring aft er six years WEBSTERS CORNERS HERITAGE as president. Shauna, along with many partners in gov- AND FINNISH COMMUNITY IN MAPLE RIDGE ernment and the private sector, helped bring to frui- tion the Windsor Bubble, a neat practice facility at M. Dalton: I recently attended the 14th annual Windsor Secondary, and helped secure the contract for Webster's Corners Day, hosted by the Webster's Corners the Windsor Soccer Academy for our students, coaches, Association. Maple Ridge has a rich history that springs club and the entire North Shore community. from a number of pioneer communities, including My daughter is fortunate to be one of those soccer Ruskin, Albion, Haney, Hammond and Websters Corners. players who continues to benefi t from the dedicated vol- Websters Corners was established in 1882 by a Scottish unteers like Shauna, who instil confi dence, skills, fi tness man named James Murray Webster from Aberdeen, and a sense of team for mutual success. Scotland. Hence, Websters Corners. He settled with his Th ank you to all of the soccer volunteers, who put in family on a 160-acre homestead east of Martin's Road, countless hours, days, weeks, months and years to help now 256 Street, and south of Dewdney Trunk Road. our young people grow into successful and passionate In 1905 Finnish settlers arrived at Websters Corners adults with a lifelong love for the world's most popular to take over a shingle boat operation that had been aban- game — soccer. doned by a Chinese crew because of the dismal camp Monday, July 8, 2013 British Columbia Debates 207
conditions and poor wages. It's hard to see why the grim ing, Burnaby-Lougheed, are of Korean heritage, and I'm job attracted this Finnish group to Websters Corners, but grateful to represent them as the fi rst Korean-Canadian they were desperate. MLA in B.C. [1345] Hon. Members, I ask for applause today for our war Th ey had just come from a failed logging and farm- heroes and those who work in their honour. [Applause.] ing venture on Malcolm Island, off of B.C.'s north coast. Started by a charismatic socialist, Matti Kurikka, this was Oral Questions now to be an ideal commune based on the founding ethic of the Finnish people, the Kalevala. Th ey rented several ELECTRICITY RATES fi shing boats and purchased a farm, which they called Sampola aft er the legendary magical mill that grinds out J. Horgan: Well, what a diff erence an election makes corn, salt and coins. — one message before the election, another message aft er Aft er seven years of communal living the magic wore the election. Of course, what are we talking about? B.C. off , and internal disputes led to its disbanding. Th e land Hydro rates. Before the election the Deputy Premier said was subdivided among its members, and Sampo Hall the following: "Th is isn't about politics. It's really about was built. Rather than discouraging the Finnish com- meeting a commitment we made which is we would take munity, the dissolution of the commune restored every- a look at hydro rates, fi nd its costs, fi nd its savings and do body's spirit, and they actually got along better by living a better job." And then he said, "Th ese rates make sense. separately. Surprise. Th ey're going to be better for the consumer. We don't Th e Sampo Hall still stands today, demonstrating its need higher rates" — before the election. Aft er the elec- own version of the sisu, or stubbornness of the Finnish tion, new minister, and he says: "No one in government people. Websters Corners adds to the vibrant, historic thinks that we can get by without rate increases." multiculturalism of Maple Ridge. Of course, we're not all fi nished with the election, hon. Speaker, as you know. Th ere's still an election going on KOREAN WAR in Kelowna. No rate increases there, but 84 of us will have to go back to our constituencies. So my question J. Shin: Hon. Members, I would like to share with you to the minister is: when are the rates going to go up and an excerpt from the memoir by Mr. Young-Gil Park, a by how much? Korean War veteran I'm privileged to have as my very good friend. Hon. B. Bennett: Well, my critic all last week was com- "It soon turned dark, and with anxiety kicked in sud- plaining and talking about how we should raise rates for den thirst. In the thick, black forest I crawled towards the B.C. Hydro so that B.C. Hydro can become.... I think he sound of water and drank my fi ll out of the pool of it. It used the word solvent. It's not a word that I would use wasn't until the morning that I witnessed the dead sol- or agree with, but he did spend a considerable amount diers fl oating atop of the small body of water that I drank of energy last week talking about how rates should be out of. It was their blood that had quenched my thirst the higher. night before and gave the life I live today." [1350] Th e Korean war that started in June 1950, just a few Th is is a new week. Th e tactics, obviously, have changed, months after my mother's birth, and ran its bloody and now the hon. member is talking about rates not go- course through July 1953, killed and devastated 2.5 mil- ing up. In fact, I didn't get the opportunity to actually lion lives, including our own 516 Canadian soldiers who listen to him on the radio this morning. I'm sorry that I made the ultimate sacrifi ce. I remember the stories of didn't. But I did read the transcript. Clearly, what he's try- this war I heard on the laps of my grandparents — so ing to do is trying to frighten ratepayers in the province. horrifying that they are all too surreal for me to believe. In terms of what my job as Energy Minister is with So when a Port Moody resident by the name of Guy respect to rates, let me just read what my mandate letter Black contacted me last month to join him on his two- says: "Minimize rate increases to consumers and indus- day, 82-kilometer trekking through Burnaby, I jumped try at B.C. Hydro while continuing to replace and build on that chance to make the four-hour midnight journey hydroelectric and transmission infrastructure." Th at's down to Mount Seymour with him to remember what my job. has come to be known as Canada's forgotten war. Th is year Canada celebrates 60 years of armistice and Madame Speaker: The official opposition House peace by designating year 2013 as the Year of Korea. It Leader on a supplemental. also marks 50 years of Canadian-Korean diplomatic re- lations. Sen. Yonah Martin also tabled a private mem- J. Horgan: This is a quote from the minister. "We ber's bill, S-213, which will make July 27 as Korean should have allowed hydro rates to go up on a more War Veterans Day. Over 6 percent of people in my rid- gradual basis." Completely contrary to what the Deputy 208 British Columbia Debates Monday, July 8, 2013
Premier said before the election and, again, contrary to northwest transmission line. We will be paying rate in- what the current Premier is campaigning on in Kelowna. creases on a host of other misguided projects under this Th ere, ratepayers don't have to pay for anything. It's all government's watch. B.C. Hydro debt. It's not real debt. It's Monopoly money, In 2010 the Clean Energy Act exempted almost every- as I've said before to the minister. thing — everything — from the B.C. Utilities Commis- I'm delighted that the Premier has written a letter to sion, except rates. And what did the Deputy Premier do? the minister saying: "Keep rates down." I know that the He intervened in that rate hearing and cancelled it and Deputy Premier interfered in a rate hearing, cancelled increased rates by 1.44 percent, which means over the it and arbitrarily lowered rates. Now we have a minister past ten years a 41 percent increase in total by this gov- saying something else. ernment. And it gets worse. Could the minister responsible inform the 84 of us [1355] who have constituents who are going to see signifi cant Again, to the minister: I know you've got new talking rate increases — not just residential but commercial points. I know they're trying to bring you around to the and industrial, which will have a profound impact on Premier's point of view. But apparently, last week all of us job creation? You're not doing too well on that front as in government knew there were going to be rate increases. it is. When will we know what the rate is, and when will We just don't know how big and when. So perhaps start we know it? with that simple question.
Hon. B. Bennett: Th e fact of the matter is that the pre- Hon. B. Bennett: Well, B.C. Hydro has a three-year vious Energy Minister and the current Premier — who capital plan. Th ere are a number of projects that are on I can name currently, for a few more days — Christy the drawing board, like the John Hart project. Th ere are a Clark actually presided over a 17½ percent rate increase. number of projects that are just very, very recently com- So when the Energy critic actually stands in this House pleted. And there are a number of projects that are be- and suggests that somehow or other they lowered rates…. ing built today. Th ey didn't lower rates. Th ey were actually there at a time I think it's, first of all, important for the public to when we increased B.C. Hydro rates. understand that B.C. Hydro's three-year capital plan tar- Now, it sounds like the Energy critic wishes that we get will be met. Th ey will not be over budget. Th ey have had increased rates more. Apparently, that's an NDP pos- at least one project that is over, which we all know about ition — that we should have increased hydro rates before — a project that we think is very important, on this side the election more than we did. But they were increased of the House, and a project that the opposition loves to by 17½ percent. talk about. As my mandate letter states, it is a balance between But there are other projects. Th ere's a project from the trying to keep a lid on the increase in rates…. And rates Kootenays, called the Columbia Valley transmission line, will have to go up. I've said that in the media, and I've which actually was under budget. Th ere is also the Stave certainly said it here before. I'll say it again. It's a real- Falls spillway project, which was recently completed and, ity. But only let those rates go up to the smallest rate of again, under budget. Th ere are a number of projects that growth possible, while at the same time investing in the are ongoing today. Th ere are probably, I would think, at infrastructure that B.C. Hydro needs to invest in and that least half a dozen projects that are part of the three-year wasn't invested in, in the 1990s, so that we can maintain capital plan for B.C. Hydro and that are trending under these 50-, 60-year-old assets that, clearly, the hon. mem- budget. ber is not familiar with. Overall, even with the northwest transmission line Th e John Hart dam right here on Vancouver Island being over budget, they will meet their three-year cap- is going to cost about $1 billion dollars, for that project. ital plan. We have to do that work. B.C. Hydro has to do that work, and that will have some impact on rates. But we will keep GOVERNMENT ACTION ON CHILD POVERTY them down as much as we possibly can. C. James: As we've just heard, this government has Madame Speaker: The official opposition House a record of saying one thing and doing just the oppos- Leader on a further supplemental. ite. Here is another example. Th e Premier promised to share the economic benefi ts of this province with every- J. Horgan: Perhaps the minister should pay more one, and just days ago the Speech from the Th rone prom- attention to the briefi ngs. Th e John Hart project hasn't ised to secure a bright future for B.C.'s children, yet the started yet. Th at debt has not yet been incurred. We are latest numbers from Statistics Canada show that these not going to be paying rate increases for something that B.C. Liberal promises mean nothing to families in British hasn't happened yet, but we will be paying rate increases Columbia. on smart meters. We will be paying rate increases on the Th e numbers show that B.C. is tied for the worst child Monday, July 8, 2013 British Columbia Debates 209
poverty rate in this country. Th at's aft er coming dead last in poverty than at any time under the NDP government. on child poverty in nine of the last ten years. Children don't live alone in poverty; families live in poverty. So CORE REVIEW AND much for families fi rst. STATUS OF PROGRAMS FOR CHILDREN Can the Minister of Children and Families explain why this government has no comprehensive plan to address S. Simpson: What we know is that there are 6,000 these shameful statistics? more children today than there were a year ago living in poverty, and that's 6,000 children and their families. B.C. Hon. S. Cadieux: No one on either side of this House has had the worst record on child poverty in this coun- wants to see a child or a family living in poverty, but try for the last decade. what the opposition continues to neglect to say is that While this government has refused to take any mean- the child poverty rate in British Columbia has declined ingful action for those families, they have pledged to by 41 percent since 2003. It remains at one of its lowest move forward with a core review, a review that will look rates in over three decades, and clearly, there is still a lot for programs in every ministry that can be cut. Th e last more to do. core review dismantled agencies like the Children's Th e B.C. jobs plan is building a foundation for the Commission and left 700 unfinished child death re- economy of British Columbia to create an atmosphere view cases to languish in a warehouse. Will the Minister for investment which will create jobs for families in every for Core Review commit today to this House that not a region of B.C. In fact, the jobs plan, since it was created, penny will be taken from programs for B.C.'s most vul- has seen more than 50,000 new jobs created in British nerable children as a result of his review? Columbia. Under the jobs plan, we're making signifi cant investments in skills training to make sure that families Hon. S. Cadieux: Th e health and safety of children in across British Columbia have the skills they need to take this province is my top priority as minister. As with all advantage of those jobs. ministries, it's important that we ensure that we are con- tinuing to use all of our resources in the most effi cient Madame Speaker: Victoria–Beacon Hill on a supple- and eff ective way possible and improve on the services mental. we continue to provide, in an ongoing way. The core review process has not yet been fully de- C. James: I'd just remind the minister that since the veloped, but as Minister of Children and Family Develop- Premier's jobs plan was introduced, the province has ac- ment, it is my job to ensure that any decisions made will tually lost private sector jobs. How is that a plan for fam- not have a signifi cant impact on the vulnerable children ilies living in poverty? that we serve. We're absolutely committed to serving Children need action today. Th e numbers show an in- vulnerable people in this province and ensuring that we crease of 6,000 children living in poverty in B.C. in just continue to deliver the critical front-line services that we one year alone — 6,000 children. And those aren't num- all depend on. bers; these are children — children who are struggling, who face unstable housing, uncertain health. Every year Madame Speaker: Vancouver-Hastings on a supple- we wait is a year lost to those children. mental. [1400] Families are struggling today, and instead of helping S. Simpson: Well, what we know is that what this gov- them, this government is increasing MSP premiums. ernment has on the table today for poor kids and poor Th ey're hiking hydro bills. Does this minister think that families is woefully inadequate. It doesn't meet their children should have to wait any longer to get action needs today. Th is minister made no commitment with from this government? that answer that there wouldn't be more cuts. Th e other thing we know is that a core review needs to Hon. S. Cadieux: I know that the member opposite be thoughtful to have value. It needs to look not just at and all of the members in the House understand that expenditures but also at service levels. Ending a decade children aren't poor alone. Th ey're poor because their of neglect on child poverty requires a long-term strategy. families don't have good jobs. Th e core review off ers nothing. We've had a Minister for Th ere are two ways to tackle the issue of poverty. Th e Core Review here, and there's been a little bit of vague fi rst is to create jobs and grow our economy. Th e second rhetoric from this minister in the press — nothing sub- is to create government programs. Th is is clearly where stantive, no commitments, no promises — about pro- we diff er from the opposition, in that we know that the tecting vulnerable people. only real way out of poverty is a job. In fact, since the jobs If the minister is serious, if he's truthful that this is plan was introduced, not only are there 50,000 more jobs what he's going to do, commit today that the terms of in the province, but there are 41,000 fewer children living reference will ensure that not a penny will be taken from 210 British Columbia Debates Monday, July 8, 2013 vulnerable citizens in this province because of your re- HEALTH OUTREACH PROGRAM view. IN NEW WESTMINSTER [1405] J. Darcy: Th is is not some theoretical argument about Hon. S. Cadieux: As I stated and will continue to do, numbers. What we're talking about aff ects real people in the health and safety of children is my top priority. profound ways. Th e core review process is about making sure govern- In my community of New Westminster, Fraser Health ment is structured for success. We made a promise to has cut $80,000 from the Lookout Society's outreach pro- British Columbians that we would manage every penny gram, a program that supports the homeless and people and that we would balance the budget on their behalf. with mental illnesses, addictions and other medical con- Th ey asked us to make sure we would get to yes on eco- ditions. It's a program that saves money by keeping pa- tients out of costly acute care beds and out of the criminal nomic development projects without needless delays. justice system. We were elected, in part, on that promise, and we intend To cover the empty promises in the Liberals' bogus to keep it. budget, patients in my community are having services Part of the process of a core review is to look at all gov- cut. Will the minister ensure that resources to this pro- ernment programs, all services and expenditures, and I gram, which are going to be cut on July 15, are in fact pro- look forward to working with my colleagues to ensure tected, or will he then admit to British Columbians that that we do a good job of this process. the Liberals had no intention whatsoever of protecting health services for British Columbians? FUNDING FOR HEALTH AUTHORITIES Hon. T. Lake: Th is government is committed to ensur- J. Darcy: Before and during the recent election the ing we have one of the best health care systems in all of Liberals repeatedly claimed that health services for Canada. We spend $16.5 billion on health care; 42 per- British Columbians would be maintained. Th e Finance cent of total government spending is on health care. But Minister knows, as a former Health Minister, that health we know there are challenges, moving forward, to make budgets will rise to match infl ationary increases and a sure that our health care system is sustainable. growing aging population. [1410] In order to maintain the fi ction that their budget is bal- We are working with the health authorities to make anced, the Liberals have cut planned spending in health sure that front-line services are maintained, and we will authorities by $165 million. The CEO of Vancouver ensure that that happens. We also are looking for ways Coastal Health Authority has already said that his health of fi nding effi ciencies in the system through lab redesign, authority is facing a $27 million shortfall. working with doctors, working with nurses to ensure that Can the Health Minister tell this House how it's pos- British Columbia continues to have the best health care sible for health authorities to be short tens of millions of system in all of Canada. dollars in their budgets and yet still maintain services for patients? How is that possible? FUNDING FOR COMMUNITY MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES Hon. T. Lake: Th ank you to the member for the fi rst S. Hammell: Last month, due to the Liberal govern- question in this ministry, which I'm very proud to lead. ment's budget cuts, there have been drastic reductions British Columbia has among the best health outcomes to mental health services. Funding to organizations such in all of Canada. On this side of the House it is outcomes as the B.C. Schizophrenia Society and Mood Disorders that matter. On the other side of the House it apparently Association were cut. In some cases community-based is how much money you can spend on a particular pro- mental health programs were eliminated. gram. Th is will put more people on wait-lists, into emergency British Columbia has a tremendous health care plan. wards and into hospital beds. Th is will eliminate much- We have a plan, going forward, to bend down the in- needed community support and preventive care. It will creasing costs of health care, which is the only way that cost more. How can this government justify eliminating we can have a sustainable health care system to look aft er community-based resources when all evidence suggests the needs of each and every British Columbian. We are, they should be improving them? over the next three years, spending $2.4 billion more in the province of British Columbia. Hon. T. Lake: Let's look at the facts. In 2011-12 the Health Ministry spent about $1.3 billion on mental Madame Speaker: Th e member for New Westminster health and substance abuse, which is an increase of 58 on a supplemental. percent since 2000-2001. Monday, July 8, 2013 British Columbia Debates 211
We invested $57 million in the new Joseph and Rosalie Hon. T. Lake: We are continuing to invest in men- Segal Centre in Vancouver, which is a total cost of $82 tal health — as I mentioned, a 58 percent increase since million. We invested $38 million in the HOpe Centre for 2000-2001. Our ten-year plan to address mental health Psychiatry and Education in North Vancouver. And we and substance use in British Columbia — Healthy Minds, built — this government built — the Hillside Psychiatric Healthy People — is a road map to further improving Centre in Kamloops, which serves the needs of the mental health, reducing problematic substance use and Interior and does an exceptional job of looking aft er addressing mental illness for all British Columbians. the concerns in mental health in the interior of British Let's compare to the NDP of the 1990s. Th ey had a Columbia. $125 million, seven-year mental health plan that was announced and, lo and behold, never appeared in the Madame Speaker: Surrey–Green Timbers on a sup- budget. So while the NDP had a phantom mental health plemental. plan, we have a real ten-year mental health plan. On this side of the House we are proud of our accomplishments HEALTH CARE FUNDING AND SERVICES in health care in British Columbia.
S. Hammell: Hon. Minister, when you cut current Madame Speaker: Vancouver-Kensington on a sup- services to vulnerable British Columbians, it's a cut. In plemental. the 2013-14 fi scal year the Liberal government cut the spending increase to the health authorities by $165 mil- M. Elmore: Well, I can tell the minister that today lion, resulting in reduced funding to programs and ser- 600 members who access the Art Studios in Vancouver- vice providers. Kensington are faced with a loss of services, and it's due Despite claims from the other side of the House, this to broken promises of the election by this government government is attempting to balance its budget by cut- to balance a budget. It's a bogus budget, and people with ting vital services to some of the most fragile British mental illness are paying the price for that. Clients will tell you and staff will tell you that this is a Columbians. My question to the minister is: what other successful program. But aft er 21 years of service to the cuts to services are hidden in this bogus budget? community this government has decided that clients at the Art Studios, some of our most vulnerable citizens, are Hon. T. Lake: I'm not quite sure what part of "$2.4 bil- too expensive to care for. Will the minister explain how lion increase" the member opposite doesn't understand. this government can aff ord to give pay raises to party B.C. has one of the best systems in Canada. loyalists but can't aff ord to fund therapies for people with We're the only province to receive an A grade for mental illnesses? health status in a report from the Conference Board of Canada. We have the overall best cancer survival rates in Hon. T. Lake: As I mentioned, we are spending $1.3 this country, the longest life expectancy in Canada and a billion every year on mental health and substance use. 58 percent increase in spending to address mental health We've had signifi cant improvements. Let me list a few of and substance abuse issues in this province. them for you. We will continue to invest in health care, but we will Th e number of adult community mental health beds do it through a lens of health outcomes, not to see if we in B.C. increased 95 percent, with 4,714 new beds since can spend the most in all of Canada, like the opposition 2001. Th e number of community substance use beds has would do. increased by 196 percent, with 1,715 new beds since 2003. Th e number of general practitioners providing mental THE ART STUDIOS THERAPY PROGRAM health and substance abuse services increased 1,764. We IN EAST VANCOUVER are training more psychiatrists, up 527. We are proud of the health care system we have in M. Elmore: Th e Art Studios in East Vancouver has British Columbia. Again, it is outcomes that make a been providing an innovative therapy and recovery pro- diff erence in people's lives, not shovelling money off gram to people with mental illnesses for 21 years. Th e the back of a truck, which is what the NDP opposition program is nationally recognized, has over 600 clients would do. and serves everyone from youth to seniors. [1415] [End of question period.] Not only has the program provided a network of sup- port and a sense of family for people faced with un- Tabling Documents imaginable challenges; in many cases it's saved lives. So will the minister explain why, just a few weeks ago, the Madame Speaker: Hon. Members, I have the honour B.C. Liberal government cancelled this program? to present two reports from the Offi ce of the Registrar 212 British Columbia Debates Monday, July 8, 2013
of Lobbyists related to the lobbying activities of Mr. Joe resumption of the sittings of the House, the Chair shall present all Fieder. Th e fi rst report is the initial investigation fi nd- reports to the Legislative Assembly.] ings by acting deputy registrar Jay Fedorak. Th e second By leave, I so move. report is the registrar's fi ndings in respect of Mr. Fieder's [1420] request for reconsideration of the administrative penalty imposed by the acting deputy registrar. Leave granted.
Motions Without Notice Motion approved.
POWERS AND ROLE OF FINANCE AND POWERS AND ROLE OF GOVERNMENT SERVICES COMMITTEE PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE
Hon. M. de Jong: I move, by leave, the following mo- Hon. M. de Jong: I move that the reports of the tions. Th ese motions have been provided to the hon. Auditor General of B.C. deposited with the Speaker of the Opposition House Leader, and, I believe, independent assembly during the fi rst session of the 40th parliament members of the House as well. be deemed referred to the Select Standing Committee on [Th at the Select Standing Committee on Finance and Government Public Accounts. Th ose reports are enumerated in the Services be empowered: motion that has been provided to members of the House. 1. To examine, inquire into and make recommendations with re- By leave, I so move: spect to the budget consultation paper prepared by the Minister of [1. Th at the reports of the Auditor General of British Columbia Finance in accordance with section 2 of the Budget Transparency deposited with the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly during and Accountability Act and, in particular, to: the First Session of the Fortieth Parliament be deemed referred a) Conduct public consultations across British Columbia to the Select Standing Committee on Public Accounts, with the on proposals and recommendations regarding the prov- exception of the report referred to in section 22 of the Auditor incial budget and fi scal policy for the coming fi scal year General Act (S.B.C. 2003, c.2), which is referred to the Select by any means the committee considers appropriate, in- Standing Committee on Finance and Government Services, and cluding but not limited to public meetings, telephone in addition that the following reports of the Auditor General of and electronic means; British Columbia be referred to the Select Standing Committee b) Prepare a report no later than November 15, 2013 on the on Public Accounts: results of those consultations; and • Summary Report: Results of Completed Projects 2. (December 2011) a) To consider and make recommendations on the annual • Development Initiative Trusts: An Audit of Legislative reports, rolling three-year service plans and budgets of Compliance and Public Accountability Practices in the the following statutory offi cers: Th ree Statutory Trusts (April 2012) (i) Auditor General • Audits of Two P3 Projects in the Sea-to-Sky Corridor (ii) Chief Electoral Offi cer (July 2012) (iii) Confl ict of Interest Commissioner • Th e Status of IT Controls in British Columbia's Public (iv) Information and Privacy Commissioner Sector: an analysis of audit fi ndings (July 2012) (v) Merit Commissioner • Follow-up Report: Updates on the implementation of (vi) Ombudsperson recommendations from recent reports (October 2012) (vii) Police Complaint Commissioner • Summary Report: Results of Completed Projects and (viii) Representative for Children and Youth; and Other Matters (December 2012) b) To examine, inquire into and make recommendations • Observations on Financial Reporting: Summary with respect to other matters brought to the Committee's Financial Statements 2011/12 (December 2012) attention by any of the Offi cers listed in 2 (a) above. • Securing the Justin System: Access and Security Audit 3. Th e Select Standing Committee on Finance and Government at the Ministry of Justice (January 2013) Services shall be the committee referred to in sections 19, 20, 21 • An Audit of Biodiversity in B.C.: Assessing the and 23 of the Auditor General Act (S.B.C. 2003, c.2), and that the Eff ectiveness of Key Tools (February 2013) performance report in section 22 of the Auditor General Act be • Striving for Quality, Timely and Safe Patient Care: An referred to the committee. Audit of Air Ambulance Services in B.C. (March 2013) In addition to the powers previously conferred upon the Select • An Audit of Carbon Neutral Government (March 2013) Standing Committee on Finance and Government Services, the • Audit of the Evergreen Line Rapid Transit Project committee shall be empowered: (March 2013) a) to appoint of their number one or more subcommittees • Public Sector Board Use of Information in British and to refer to such subcommittees any of the matters Columbia 2012: Progress Update Since 2009 (April referred to the Committee; 2013) b) to sit during a period in which the House is adjourned, • School District Board Governance Examinations (April during the recess aft er prorogation until the next follow- 2013) ing Session and during any sitting of the House; • Follow-up Report: Updates on the Implementation of c) to adjourn from place to place as may be convenient; and Recommendations from Recent Reports (April 2013) d) to retain personnel as required to assist the Committee, 2. Th at the Select Standing Committee on Public Accounts be and shall report to the House as soon as possible, or following the committee referred to in sections 6, 7, 10, 13 and 14 of the any adjournment, or at the next following Session, as the case Auditor General Act. may be; to deposit the original of its reports with the Clerk of the In addition to the powers previously conferred upon the Legislative Assembly during a period of adjournment and upon Select Standing Committee on Public Accounts, the Committee Monday, July 8, 2013 British Columbia Debates 213
be empowered: may be; to deposit the original of its reports with the Clerk of the a) to appoint of their number, one or more subcommittees Legislative Assembly during a period of adjournment and upon and to refer to such subcommittees any of the matters referred resumption of the sittings of the House, the Chair shall present to the Committee; all reports to the Legislative Assembly.] b) to sit during a period in which the House is adjourned, dur- ing the recess aft er prorogation until the next following Session Leave granted. and during any sitting of the House; c) to adjourn from place to place as may be convenient; and Motion approved. d) to retain personnel as required to assist the Committee, and shall report to the House as soon as possible, or follow- APPOINTMENT OF SPECIAL COMMITTEE ing any adjournment, or at the next following Session, as the case may be; to deposit the original of its reports with the Clerk of the TO APPOINT AN AUDITOR GENERAL Legislative Assembly during a period of adjournment and upon resumption of the sittings of the House, the Chair shall present Hon. M. de Jong: I with leave move that a special com- all reports to the Legislative Assembly.] mittee be appointed to select and unanimously recom- mend the appointment of an Auditor General, pursuant Leave granted. to section 2 of the Auditor General Act and point out that the committee of selection, as with all of the committees Motion approved. referred to thus far today, indicated which members will participate in that process. Th is motion, if the House en- POWERS AND ROLE OF dorses it, will charge the committee with that task. CHILDREN AND YOUTH COMMITTEE With leave, I so move: [Th at a Special Committee be appointed to select and unanimous- Hon. M. de Jong: By leave, I also move that the Select ly recommend the appointment of an Auditor General, pursuant Standing Committee on Children and Youth be ap- to section 2 of the Auditor General Act (S.B.C. 2003, c.2). Th e pointed to be empowered to foster greater awareness and said Special Committee shall have the powers of a Select Standing understanding among legislators and the public of the Committee and in addition is empowered: a) to appoint of their number one or more subcommittees B.C. child welfare system and, in particular, to conduct and to refer to such subcommittees any of the matters the liaison work that is enumerated in the motion with referred to the Committee; the Representative for Children and Youth, thereaft er re- b) to sit during a period in which the House is adjourned, ferred to as the representative. during the recess aft er prorogation until the next follow- ing Session and during any sitting of the House; Again, with leave, I so move: c) to adjourn from place to place as may be convenient; and [Th at the Select Standing Committee on Children and Youth be d) to retain such personnel as required to assist the appointed to be empowered to foster greater awareness and under- Committee; standing among legislators and the public of the BC child welfare and shall report to the House as soon as possible, or following system, and in particular to: any adjournment, or at the next following Session, as the case 1. Be the committee that receives and reviews the annual ser- may be; to deposit the original of its reports with the Clerk of the vice plan from the Representative for Children and Youth (the Legislative Assembly during a period of adjournment and upon "Representative") that includes a statement of goals and identi- resumption of the sittings of the House, the Chair shall present all fi es specifi c objectives and performance measures that will be reports to the Legislative Assembly.] required to exercise the powers and perform the functions and duties of the Representative during the fi scal year; Leave granted. 2. Be the committee to which the Representative reports, at least annually; 3. Refer to the Representative for investigation the critical in- Motion approved. jury or death of a child; and 4. Receive and consider all reports and plans delivered by Orders of the Day the Representative to the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia. Hon. M. de Jong: I call debate on the budget. In addition to the powers previously conferred upon Select Standing Committees of the House, the Select Standing Committee on Children and Youth be empowered: Budget Debate (a) to appoint of their number one or more subcommittees (continued) and to refer to such subcommittees any of the matters referred to the Committee; Madame Speaker: Seeing no further speakers, the (b) to sit during a period in which the House is adjourned, minister closes debate. during the recess after prorogation until the next following Session and during any sitting of the House; (c) to adjourn from place to place as may be convenient; and Hon. M. de Jong: I should say at the outset that I…. (d) to retain personnel as required to assist the Committee; My regards to all of the members, and thanks to those and shall report to the House as soon as possible, or follow- who have thus far participated in the budget delibera- ing any adjournment, or at the next following Session, as the case tions, most particularly members who have joined the 214 British Columbia Debates Monday, July 8, 2013
House for the fi rst time and have provided their contribu- that budget, which is balanced. tion to the discussions around that very important func- So in the days ahead — and there are not many days tion, that being the collection of revenues by the Crown ahead, which is why I will bring my remarks to a close from British Columbians and the redistribution of that so we can get on with the task there…. through various expenditure programs. I should say as well — and I will assure the House Interjections. my remarks will be very brief — that I am also grateful, as I think that the offi cial opposition critic would point Hon. M. de Jong: Th ere was a day when I would have out, for the opportunity to have injected, procedurally, taken that bait. something new in the initial stages of debate. Members, Th ere is important work ahead, and now we will move I hope, will feel free to provide commentary or thoughts to the part of the process where members — particularly on the introduction of a more visual component to the members of the offi cial opposition, independent mem- discussion, either directly or through their caucus repre- bers — will have an opportunity to consider the budget sentatives. Perhaps it is something that a committee like with respect to individual departmental allocations. We LAMC, or some other agency of the House, may wish to will begin that this aft ernoon. consider in the future in terms of the reaction to what I hope even in the course of that exercise that members took place and whether it has a place in future delibera- will accept that the government, members of the govern- tions, or at all, in the chamber. ment caucus, were very, very clear and sought a man- Beyond that, let me say this, substantively. I listened, date from the people of British Columbia to administer as I always do, with interest and care to the commen- their budget, their revenues, on the basis of a certain set tary, particularly that from the opposition, in the aft er- of principles. At the heart of that: the fundamental prin- math of the electoral process and the reintroduction of ciple that said we would not spend more of their money a budget that, I have to say, candidly, was met with very than people send to us. Th at lies at the heart of the budget. little surprise. Th at doesn't upset either me or the gov- If it were easy, B.C. wouldn't be one of the only prov- ernment, because it was meant to be a refl ection of what inces able to boast a balanced budget. If it were easy, the government had introduced back in February. It was British Columbia wouldn't be one of the only jurisdic- intended to contain the same provisions, because that's tions in North America able to boast a triple-A credit what the pledge was. rating. [1425] [1430] Th e commentary from most quarters in the oppos- It is actually possible to quantify the benefi ts that accrue ition benches, I have to say, was predictable. Maybe it was to British Columbians as a result of that triple-A credit rat- asking a lot to think that perhaps in the aft ermath of the ing: the lower borrowing costs, the debt-servicing costs — electoral process, the election, that some of that commen- the literally hundreds of millions of dollars that are saved tary would change. It is, aft er all, the opposition's duty to in debt-servicing costs that are now available to apply to critique and not endorse. But to persist, in the face of all programming and other worthwhile public endeavours. reasonable evidence, in the kinds of categorizations that Th ese are real, tangible benefi ts. I heard repeatedly, I think adds little to the discussion. I hope, as the deliberations occur over the course of I understand in making the diffi cult choices that gov- the next three weeks…. We heard again today about con- ernments are obliged to make to balance a budget that cerns around the health care budget, a health care budget there will be disagreements. But to simply dismiss the that is growing by $2.4 billion. I listened and read care- eff ort as not being legitimate, I think adds little to the fully, because I understand the opposition's position — I public discourse. think I understand it — that $2.4 billion is not enough. I suppose that having at no point over the last three I think that's what they're saying. I listened in vain for or four months indicated even for a moment that it ap- any indication from the opposition as to how much was preciates the importance of balancing the budget, having enough and never heard it — didn't hear it three months ignored and refused to even for a moment acknowledge ago, didn't hear it two months ago, didn't hear it in the that there is an important objective being served to do last two weeks. so, it would fall automatically that the offi cial opposition I would suggest that the opposition at this point in would seek to denigrate the eff orts of a government that time, in addition to the criticism that it is charged with does place great importance in balancing the budget. bringing, has another obligation, and that is to provide, We said in February that's what lay at the heart of a in ways that I guess they chose not to two and three budget that was remarkable by pre-election standards for months ago, British Columbians with more specifi c in- not containing a plethora of spending promises. Th ough formation about how much more of the public's tax dol- I'm sure the opposition hoped and thought the govern- lars they intend to devote to these services or how much ment would never have an opportunity to follow through more of the public tax dollars they intend to take from on that promise, here we are debating that document, other public services. Monday, July 8, 2013 British Columbia Debates 215
Those are the tough choices. Those are the tough Motions Without Notice choices that we are obliged to make to set our econ- omy on a fi rm foundation and allow for the job creation COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY that we believe lies at the heart of a prosperous British TO SIT IN TWO SECTIONS Columbia going forward. Hon. M. de Jong: Again, I've provided the follow- It will be interesting to hear during the give-and-take ing motion, which I move with leave now, to the hon. of the estimates debate that will follow whether or not any Opposition House Leader and independent members. of that information or views emerge from the opposition. I'll summarize it: "Be it resolved that this House hereby Th e executive branch, for its part, will do its best, I can authorizes of the Committee of Supply for this session to assure members, to provide answers to the questions that sit in two sections, designated Section A and Section B; undoubtedly will follow in the days ahead. Section A to sit in such committee room as may be ap- I therefore move, seconded by the hon. Deputy Premier pointed from time to time, and Section B to sit in the of British Columbia, that the Speaker do now leave the chamber of the assembly, subject to the following rules." chair for the House to go into Committee of Supply. Th e rules are enumerated, and I am assured that they [1435] are the same rules as have been customary in this House, governing the conducting of the two committee rooms. Madame Speaker: Hon. Members, is there agreement [Be it resolved that this House hereby authorizes the Committee of Supply for this Session to sit in two sections designated Section A to waive the time? and Section B; Section A to sit in such Committee Room as may be appointed from time to time, and Section B to sit in the Chamber Some Hon. Members: Aye. of the Assembly, subject to the following rules: 1. The Standing Orders applicable to the Committee of the Whole House shall be applicable in both Sections of the Motion approved on the following division: Committee of Supply save and except that in Section A, a Minister may defer to a Deputy Minister to permit such Deputy YEAS — 48 to reply to a question put to the Minister. 2. All Estimates shall stand referred to Section A, save and ex- Horne Sturdy Bing cept those Estimates as shall be referred to Section B on motion Hogg Pimm McRae without notice by the Government House Leader, which motion shall be decided without amendment or debate and be governed Stone Fassbender Oakes by Practice Recommendation #6 relating to Consultation. Wat Th omson Virk 3. Section A shall consist of 17 Members, being 10 Members Rustad Wilkinson Yamamoto of the B.C. Liberal Party and 6 Members of the New Democratic Sultan Hamilton Reimer Party and one Independent. In addition, the Deputy Chair of the Committee of the Whole, or his or her nominee, shall preside Ashton Morris Hunt over the debates in Section A. Substitution of Members will be Sullivan Cadieux Lake permitted to Section A with the consent of that Member's Whip, Polak de Jong Coleman where applicable, otherwise with the consent of the Member involved. For the fi rst session of the Fortieth Parliament, the Anton Bond Bennett Members of Section A shall be as follows: the Minister whose Letnick Barnett Yap Estimates are under consideration and, Messrs. Letnick, Morris, Th ornthwaite Dalton Plecas Th roness, Ashton, Hamilton, Sultan, Kyllo, Yap and Mme. Tegart, and Messrs. Horgan, Simpson, Farnworth, and Mmes. Karagianis, Lee Kyllo Tegart Hammell and Corrigan, and Ms. Huntington. Martin Michelle Stilwell Huntington 4. At fi ft een minutes prior to the ordinary time fi xed for ad- Th roness Larson Foster journment of the House, the Chair of Section A will report to Gibson Bernier Weaver the House. In the event such report includes the last vote in a particular ministerial Estimate, aft er such report has been made NAYS — 30 to the House, the Government shall have a maximum of eight minutes, and the Offi cial Opposition a maximum of fi ve min- Corrigan Simpson James utes, and all other Members (cumulatively) a maximum of three minutes to summarize the Committee debate on a particular Horgan Farnworth Ralston ministerial Estimate completed, such summaries to be in the Fleming Austin Hammell following order: Donaldson Chandra Herbert Macdonald (1) Other Members; (2) Opposition; and Karagianis Eby Mungall (3) Government. Bains Elmore Heyman 5. Section B shall be composed of all Members of the House. Darcy Krog Robinson 6. Divisions in Section A will be signalled by the ringing of Trevena B. Routley D. Routley the division bells four times. Simons Fraser Chouhan 7. Divisions in Section B will be signalled by the ringing of the division bells three times at which time proceedings in Section A Rice Shin Holman will be suspended until completion of the division in Section B. 216 British Columbia Debates Monday, July 8, 2013
8. Section A is hereby authorized to consider Bills referred to ate the cooperation of the members opposite as that pro- Committee aft er second reading thereof and the Standing Orders cess happens. applicable to Bills in Committee of the Whole shall be applicable to such Bills during consideration thereof in Section A, and for I appreciate the advance advice that the member for all purposes Section A shall be deemed to be a Committee of the Columbia River–Revelstoke provided us on the nature Whole. Such referrals to Section A shall be made upon motion of the issues he'd like to cover. I hope we've got the staff without notice by the Minister responsible for the Bill, and such organized appropriately for it, but it may take us a little motion shall be decided without amendment or debate. Practice Recommendation #6 relating to Consultation shall be applicable bit of shuffl ing and adjustment as we move through it, so to all such referrals. I appreciate that cooperation. 9. Bills or Estimates previously referred to a designated With me is Dave Peterson, acting deputy minister for Committee may at any stage be subsequently referred to another the ministry; Tom Ethier, who is the assistant deputy designated Committee on motion of the Government House minister of resource stewardship; and Tom Jensen, who Leader or Minister responsible for the Bill as hereinbefore pro- vided by Rule Nos. 2 and 8.] is the assistant deputy minister of timber pricing. Th at's By leave, I move that motion. the way we'll start, and if we need to adjust, we'll change as the questions and discussion come forward. Leave granted. I appreciate…. As I said, I'm looking forward to the debate on the estimates. As you know, British Columbia Motion approved. is blessed with an abundance of natural resources and naturally resourceful people who are committed to build- Hon. M. de Jong: I call estimates debate in Committee ing a strong economy, building a secure tomorrow for B, this chamber, Ministry of Forests, Lands and Natural British Columbia. Resources; and, in Section A, Ministry of Social Our ministry is a critical part of the government's Development and Social Innovation. mandate to build that strong economy, because eco- [1440] nomic health is the only way that British Columbians can continue to aff ord strong public services — health Committee of Supply care, education, skills training, social programs. Th ey are only possible if we have a strong economy that can ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF sustain them, so we need to continue to grow our econ- FORESTS, LANDS AND omy and create the high-paying jobs for the people of NATURAL RESOURCE OPERATIONS British Columbia. Th at's the bottom line, and that's why this ministry will maintain its focus on the steps laid out Th e House in Committee of Supply (Section B); R. in the B.C. jobs plan. Chouhan in the chair. As Minister of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations, I'm proud to be working with a group of Th e committee met at 2:43 p.m. professionals who are dedicated to achieving this object- ive and creating jobs, along with providing the environ- Hon. M. de Jong: With permission, with the leave mental stewardship that ensures our children and our of all members, I'm going to suggest that the member grandchildren will enjoy B.C.'s natural benefi ts. During for Cowichan Valley be authorized to participate in this process you'll meet a number of those dedicated pro- the committee proceedings in this Committee B from fessional staff who provide that service to our ministry. a chair other than his own, the chair being the one for It's a diverse ministry, a wide range of responsibil- Vancouver–Point Grey. I think it'll facilitate a smoother ities that include managing our forests, Crown land and proceeding if he has that opportunity, and I seek leave of water resources and overseeing provincial fi sh, wildlife, the committee for that purpose. heritage and archaeology. As the single land manager for [1445] B.C.'s resource sector, we play a critical role in economic development of the province, leading a streamlined ap- Leave granted. proach that integrates policy with operational resource management. On Vote 26: ministry operations, $340,367,000. We've already made great strides within the ministry under the jobs plan. One of our key commitments was Hon. S. Th omson: I look forward to the beginning of for the ministry to reduce the backlog in mining notice- the estimates debate for the Ministry of Forests, Lands of-work applications by 80 percent by August 2012 and and Natural Resource Operations. I want to introduce to reduce the backlog in land and water authorizations, the staff that are with me here, to start. I expect, given each by 50 percent, by December 2012. We achieved the nature of the issues that I expect want to be can- those reduction targets and went beyond them. We re- vassed, that we'll be moving staff in and out of the chairs duced notice-of-work applications almost 92 percent by as required — a bit of a revolving door there. I appreci- August 2012, and we continue to focus on streamlining Monday, July 8, 2013 British Columbia Debates 217
the permitting processes for those authorizations. lion in revenue-sharing and access to over 63 million [1450] cubic metres of timber, making signifi cant strides in We've also achieved the targets on Land Act and Water building capacity for First Nations involvement in the Act authorizations. Our mandate is to continue to work forest sector. on solidifying the operations of the ministry, making A great deal of progress has been made. Certainly, sure that we continue to address those authorizations, there is more to be done as we build on the improved re- improving our permitting processes and strengthening turns and the opportunities ahead of us. the core operations of the ministry. I look forward to the questions from the members op- In fall 2012 the ministry also released Beyond the posite. We will endeavour to answer them to the best of Beetle: A Mid-Term Timber Supply Action Plan as part our ability. Where we don't have the specifi c informa- of our government's ongoing response to the mountain tion, as we have done through the process before with pine beetle infestation and the response to the work of the members opposite, we will undertake to provide the the mid-term timber supply committee recommenda- information requested as a follow-up. I found that that's tions. Th is action plan focused on forest inventory, fuel a process that has worked well in previous estimate de- management, reforestation, intensive and innovative bates with the members opposite. silviculture and a strategic inventory plan that will in- Again, I look forward to the questions. crease the area for re-inventory from 18 million hectares [1455] to 35 million hectares, with the highest priority being those areas impacted by the pine beetle. N. Macdonald: In a preamble to the 2012 estimates de- Key priorities for the year ahead that have been set bate we made some important points, we felt, which the out in our mandate are to continue to work in partner- government chose to completely ignore. From what I can ship to diversify and grow important markets for the for- glean from the letter outlining her expectations that the est industry; to grow and diversify those key markets in Premier sent to the minister, this government's plans are China, Japan, India and Korea, building on the success- to go against the people's will on some specifi ed initia- es that we've achieved to date; to work and consult with tives in the letter and to completely ignore those pressing communities about the mid-term timber supply com- challenges that we must confront if we are to leave some- mittee report and a process to address recommendations thing of our natural renewable resource heritage for our around area-based tenures; to streamline mining applica- children to work with. tion processes to ensure that they can be done on line and Accordingly, some of the points made in the preamble as quickly and as effi ciently as possible; to review provin- to the 2012 estimates bear repeating — that the sound cial permitting processes to eliminate red tape wherever management of B.C.'s forests is a matter of utmost pub- possible without compromising safety and environment- lic importance. Its management, moving forward, will be al standards; to examine the rules and the eff ectiveness even more so, given known challenges around forest in- of B.C. Timber Sales and develop recommendations for ventory, biodiversity decline, climate change, our vitally improvement; to work with the forest industry to develop important water resources and escalating competing de- the cellulose fi lament research opportunity in British mands on our forest land base, most notably in the ener- Columbia; to work with guide-outfi tters in the province gy and mining sectors. to ensure certainty and continuity for this important sec- Th e Forest Practices Board has sounded the alarm tor; and to support economic opportunities throughout on cumulative impacts on the landscape. More recent- the province. ly, last month the CEO of the Association of B.C. Forest Th e allocations for the ministry's 2013-14 budget re- Professionals, in a report to members…. I'm sure the fl ect those priorities. minister has seen the B.C. Forest Professional Magazine. I'm very pleased to be leading this ministry, because I'll quote from that. we've had, as I said, those successes to date. We've noted Th is is from Sharon Glover in the magazine's June 2013 some very signifi cant successes in the forest sector: in- edition. It goes: creasing jobs — in 2011-2012, 3,000 new jobs; a 6 per- "It's time for us to restart the conversation about cumulative cent increase — and building the lumber export market. impacts. Results to date of current processes for planning are of Particularly, exports to the U.S. were up 11.3 percent concern. It's time for a more holistic view of our forested land base and all that we can achieve on it. As the stewards of our resources, from 2011, and the value was up by 25 percent. the government needs to optimize the use of its land, water and Soft wood lumber exports to China in 2003 were $69 resources for the economic, social and environmental benefi t of million. We've grown those by 1,500 percent to almost the people of B.C." $1.1 billion in 2011, and that has held steady in 2012. Th at's in the most recent edition of B.C. Forest Professional, Production of wood pellets has increased almost two by Sharon Glover. million tonnes, almost double the volume produced in When one considers the central purpose of bringing 2010. Since 2002 we've signed forestry agreements with natural resources, planning and management under one 175 First Nations, providing them more than $324 mil- ministry, this is a condemning indictment of the B.C. 218 British Columbia Debates Monday, July 8, 2013
Liberal government's performance — a failure, I think, of Lands William Ross said nearly 100 years ago, to the that has been only too predictable, given the emptiness day, remains so today. Th e government, on behalf of the of substance in ministry service plans for, I think it's fair people, has a responsibility to hand down to future gen- to say, well over a decade. erations their "vast heritage of forest wealth, unexhausted It has been said that the annual ministry service plan and unimpaired." report has never been so slim and empty of content since Here we are talking primarily about the province's re- our men and women went to the front during the last newable resources, for which this government has pro- world war. Th e primary reason for this failure is that the gressively cut funding by up to 52 percent over the last 12 ministry, given its stunningly broad mandate, is gross- years while having increased the total provincial budget ly under-resourced in staffi ng and operational funding. by 56 percent and while the provincial debt has climbed Historically and for understandable reasons, much of from $33 billion or so up to upwards of $63 billion. the focus during sessions such as this has been on the fi - When viewed from this perspective, the health and nancial side of the equation. How much revenue is com- well-being of our community is tied very closely to the ing in? How great are the expenditures? health of our forests. If our forests are healthy, then the air Oft en the focus on the fi nancial side tends to be coarse we breathe and the water we drink are clean and safe, and and misses the key points. For instance, in which re- the communities we live in are safer and more resilient gions are the revenues generated? In which regions are because the lands surrounding them are resilient as well. funds spent related to the ministry expenditures? Which Realizing this vision is not easy, however, and it is programs receive funding increases, and which do not? made far more diffi cult if the government persists in old Finally, are projected revenues and expenditures up to and, frankly, dangerous ways of thinking within very providing what the public considers essential services? short electoral cycles. If our forest-dependent rural com- I made similar points during the 2012 estimates debate, munities, in particular, are to have a future, the province but since then I have seen little progress in dealing with needs to embrace longer-term visions, goals and strat- the enormous challenges posed by the mountain pine egies in keeping with the healthy rotation cycle of our beetle and climate change. forests. Th ese visions, goals and strategies should be em- Now, we hear routinely about the number of trees bodied in a clear and transparent provincial plan that killed over the 17-million-plus hectares of land and about sets out how key objectives relating to our forest, land the tremendous reforestation challenges that such tree and water resources will be met. mortality poses. What we rarely hear talk of is the impli- My concern with the estimates document before us is cations that such tree mortality pose for our province's that, as our Auditor General recently pointed out, there vitally important shared public water resources. is no long-term plan and no long-term objectives against Yet it is this ministry that bears stewardship respon- which to assess government's planned expenditures in sibilities for both our publicly owned forests and fresh- the key areas of our timber and water resources. water resources — a responsibility given added weight Beyond that, there is no coherent long-term plan that and public concern by this government just this April, lays out a framework for where we, as a province, ob- when it transferred those responsibilities for allocat- viously need to go, which is to a future where we extract ing public water resources to energy company appli- far fewer raw resources but ensure that the fewer re- cants from the Ministry of Forests, Lands and Natural sources we do extract provide optimum benefi ts to the Resource Operations to the Oil and Gas Commission, people of British Columbia and that the resources we eff ectively putting the fox in charge of the chicken coop. conserve provide optimal ecological services to sustain It strikes me as key, then, that we have a full under- our society. standing of both revenue streams moving forward and Without this long-term vision or plan and supporting how investments in forests will benefi t both the land goals, this government has no incentive to fi nd innova- and water. tive revenue sources to fund the work necessary to main- I want to emphasize, in my approach to the estimates tain our renewable natural resource and to leave our before us — in fact, the approach that my colleague from children something to work with. Cowichan Valley and I will take — that it's important Having framed that, let's get to the questions. Th e way we realize that British Columbia's Crown land base is this will work, Minister, is that my colleague and I will immense and is a public asset of the fi rst order. British go back and forth, but the stream that we have prepared Columbians, of course, own 94 percent of the land and will be consistent. So you won't have to move staff around. all of the province's freshwater resources. Th e fi rst question deals, of course, with revenue. [1500] Let's look fi rst at what we have in the documents here. Th e challenges ahead are enormous, given the rate of Can the minister confi rm that the revenue projection climate change, but while today's management challenges from Forests for this fi scal year is $593 million and that may diff er from those a century ago, the key responsibil- the updated actual revenue from Forests for 2012-2013 ities to protect the public interest remain. What Minister is $562 million? Monday, July 8, 2013 British Columbia Debates 219
[1505] 14, as I stated, the estimate is $593 million.
Hon. S. Th omson: To confi rm, the revenue for 2012- B. Routley: Can the minister confi rm whether or not 13 was $537 million. Th e projected revenue in the plan in the 2013 estimates the projected revenues from for- for 2014-15 is $657 million. ests in 2014-15 are $657 million and in '15-16 are $693 I've just had that corrected. Sorry. Th e budget estimate, million? '13-14, is $593 million. Hon. S. Th omson: Yes. B. Routley: Just before I get into my questioning, I wanted to say that it is really something for me to be in B. Routley: Speeding things right along. this Legislature and to think back now some 42 years that So based on actual revenue from the forests of $562 I fi rst started in the forest industry, back in the days when million in 2012-13 — at least I think that's what you said; the Youbou sawmill that I worked in had 650 employees you might have said a diff erent number — the projected working in it. When it closed in 2001, that mill was down revenue for 2014-15 has increased to $657 million — a to about 200 employees. change of plus $51 million, plus or minus 8 percent. And We've seen that movie played out all over British for 2015-16 forest revenues are projected to increase by Columbia. Literally thousands of forest workers, whether $87 million, or plus 13 percent. it be in all of the various kinds of mills, but also in log- My question for the minister is: how does the minister ging, have lost their jobs. Forest and resource commun- account for this upward change in projections, and what ities all over British Columbia have suff ered the impacts variables, precisely, have changed? of this tremendous change. [1515] So we have some important questions about the rev- enue in this document. We're going to go through some Hon. S. Th omson: As the member opposite may know, of the baseline material, look at where we are today and the revenue forecasting process is very, very complex in then, we think, ask some thoughtful questions about terms of lots of variables that go into determining those. where we need to go in the future. It's done by professionals within the branch and worked But I do want to mention that since our last estimates, I through in cooperation with the Ministry of Finance. actually requested some information which you provided, Th e forecast is based on current economic assump- and that was about the number of mill closures. You sent tions regarding U.S. housing starts, the exchange rate a letter May 29, shortly aft er estimates in May. I think it's — lumber, pulp and other commodity prices go into the worth reading into the record the dramatic impact just equation — harvest levels, overall harvest, seasonality on the coast alone. patterns, the Asia market. A whole number of factors go From 2001 to 2011 — that's the period of time that into those calculations. As you know, U.S. housing starts you had numbers for — we've gone from 179 mills on are up. Exports to the U.S. continue to slowly return to the coast of British Columbia down to 111. Th at's a loss modest levels. Exports to Asian markets, particularly of 68 mills, with all of the thousands of workers and their China, have levelled over the past few months. Th at's families that were impacted by that. built into the equation. Th e total loss of mills in all regions, and that includes Th ere are a signifi cant number of factors that go into the northern Interior, southern Interior and the coast, is building the revenue forecasts, but essentially, the in- 151 total mills closed since 2001 till 2011. It's dramatic creased revenue is built on improving markets, increased and certainly something that is good to know — that harvest levels and continued growth in export markets. there's a supercycle coming. We've heard those good- news stories since I started in this House four years ago. N. Macdonald: Th e minister's answer appears to con- We heard speakers talking about the potential of a super- fi rm that over a three-year period we'll witness a 13 per- cycle in the forest industry, which has yet to fully ma- cent increase in forest revenues. I heard what the minister terialize, but hopefully, we will see some improvements. gave as an explanation. I understand that. With that, I would like to start the questioning, from I guess the question I would have is: what average per- my point of view, with: can the minister further confi rm centage increase in stumpage does the ministry forecast — by the way, this should be an easy one; you answered for the Interior? Th en, separate from that, what average it already — that in the 2012 estimates the projected rev- percentage increase in stumpage does the ministry fore- enues from forest in 2013-14 were $557 million, and in cast for the coast? Does the ministry also factor into rev- 2014-15 they were $606 million. enue forecasts…? [1510] I think the ministry talked about a higher rate of cut, but is it not possible in some of those areas, if we break Hon. S. Th omson: For '12-13 the revised estimates them apart, that we're talking about a slower rate of cut were $517 million. Th e actual was $537 million. For '13- and lower allowable annual cuts in the AAC? Here I'm 220 British Columbia Debates Monday, July 8, 2013
thinking about the 12 worst-aff ected Interior timber sup- service plans and the respective ministry expenses…. If ply areas and response to a known timber supply short- we just go to 2012-2013, I think the minister said $664 age as a result of the mountain pine beetle infestation. million. For 2013-2014 it was $561 million. [1520] So just comparing the numbers that the minister pro- vided and that we've talked about before, would the min- Hon. S. Th omson: I am advised…. In terms of the ister agree that the government has chosen to reinvest in stumpage, as you know, there are quarterly updates to the land about 53 percent, on average, of the ministry's stumpage, both in the Interior and the coast, and those present annual total revenues? quarterly adjustments — at least the next ones — are fac- [1530] tored into the forecasts. In the Interior it's anticipated that it will be about a $2 increase. On the coast — probably a Hon. S. Th omson: Th e calculation that the member more modest increase than that. opposite has done, in terms of the revenues collected In terms of the stumpage, as you know, there are up- within the ministry at the amounts that we referenced dates done, both on the coast and the Interior. Th ose and expenditures, and the percentage calculation that updates, as they are done…. One is scheduled for the was done…. I'm not going to argue about the percentage Interior in July. Another one is scheduled to follow that calculation, although I haven't calculated it exactly. It's on the coast. Th ose calculations are not built into the more to recognize that the revenue we collect within the forecasts, which means that if the…. It shows that our ministry for a variety of purposes also goes to fund im- forecasts are conservative in nature. portant functions of government. It goes towards fund- As you know, the market pricing system refl ects a mar- ing health care, education, social services. ket. So if the updates are done and presuming that there's Th at's about the process of building a balanced budget not a negative harvest response to those potentially in- — to get revenues, where they are appropriate, and mak- creased rates as the market pricing system updates are ing appropriate investments within the ministry to done, then that would potentially refl ect an increased undertake our obligations and our functions and also revenue to the province, which, again, goes back to the having the resources of this province contribute towards point that the calculations that have been built into the the services of government that citizens of the province plan are conservative in nature. want and require.
B. Routley: A popular perception is that the Ministry B. Routley: On page 18 of the three-year fi scal plan of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations relies in the document entitled June Budget Update 2013/14– wholly on revenue from forest. Yet for the last 12 years it 2015/16, under "Natural resource revenue" in table 1.8, has not generated revenue suffi cient to cover needed ex- the footnote to the entry "Other resource" lists "Columbia penditures on the land. I would like to explore the truth River treaty, other energy and minerals, water rental and of this perception. other resources." Th e 2013 estimates before us detail expenses by the My question for the minister is: what specifi cally are ministry and revenues by source, not by ministry. So other resources? the revenues we have been discussing so far in this de- [1535] bate are from forests, largely derived from stumpage and from B.C. timber sales. Over the past six or so years ex- Hon. S. Thomson: There would be a number of penditures for the ministry closely match forest revenues. other…. Th e specifi c question was around what might be My question for the minister is: what is the real, all- included in other resources. Th ose would be items like inclusive revenue for the ministry for fi scal years 2012- angling permits, hunting permits and licences, Motor 13, 2013-14, 2014-15 and 2015-16? A hint might be that Vehicle (All Terrain) Act licences and permits, land regis- you could fi nd some numbers that are diff erent on the try fees. A number of items like that would make up what service plan of the total ministry's revenue. is being referred to there as other resources — the sale [1525] of maps and air photos, a number of miscellaneous fees, licences and permits. Th ose forms of things would be in Hon. S. Th omson: Th e question was: what was the that category of other resources. total revenue forecast for the Ministry of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations? For 2013-14 it's B. Routley: Th ank you for that answer. How much $1,245,181,000; forecast for '14-15, which I think the revenue does each of those categories that you have men- member opposite was looking for, $1,252,565,000; and tioned under "Other revenue" generate? for '15-16, $1,334,828,000. [1540]
N. Macdonald: Given the total ministry revenues that Hon. S. Th omson: Just to provide a breakdown of the minister just listed and quoting from the ministry those: water resources, $482 million; Wildlife Act fees Monday, July 8, 2013 British Columbia Debates 221
and licences, $20.2 million; Motor Vehicle (All Terrain) there may have been some revenues from other minis- Act licences and permits, $19,000; land registry fees, tries, in terms of some of the restructuring, that might $25,000; and land tenure revenue and other income and impact it a little bit, although I don't know to what de- interest earned in relation to those, $123 million. gree. I think it would be primarily related to stumpage and harvest levels. B. Routley: Th e water rental. How much revenue is de- [1550] rived from water rental in the fi scal year? I think you just gave us the answer for 2012-13, but what about 2013-14, B. Routley: As the minister knows, there is a great deal 2014-15 and in 2015-16? of concern at present over the availability of suffi cient volumes of timber to sustain today's sawmilling capacity, Hon. S. Thomson: Just to confirm, the figure of particularly in the Interior. Th e fi re that completely de- $482.067 million that I provided was the estimate for stroyed the Babine Forest mill in Burns Lake exemplifi es '13-14. Forecast for '14-15, $464 million, and forecast for this. Subsequent to this fi re, a cabinet document leaked '15-16, $470.149 million. in April 2012 confi rmed timber supply shortages and outlined drastic measures to ensure that the Babine mill N. Macdonald: Mr. Chair, if you would kindly direct was rebuilt. the minister to table A9, "Revenue by source," on page These measures included, among other options or 120 of the three-year fi scal plan of the document titled proposals, (1) to log forest reserves in old-growth man- June Budget Update 2013/14–2015/16. Th e minister will agement areas previously off -limits, (2) to supersede the see that revenues from forests were $1.276 billion and statutory powers of the chief forester and to override $1.087 billion for fi scal years 2006-2007 and 2007-2008 his independent professional oversight of timber sup- respectively. ply and forest stewardship of publicly owned forests and My question is: what revenue sources have changed (3) to roll over forest licences into tree farm licences, or and by how much when one compares those revenues TFLs, without the licensee meeting the normal criteria with the forecast revenue for fi scal year 2013-14? Is the for conversion. diff erence confi ned to stumpage and B.C. Timber Sales In an obvious attempt at damage control, the gov- revenues? Or are other factors at play, and if so, what are ernment convened the timber supply review commit- those factors? tee, which I served on. Th e government appointed two past chief foresters as special advisers to the committee. Hon. S. Th omson: I wonder if I could, in order to Th e committee confi rmed that interior British Columbia make sure I provide the accurate answer, just get clarifi - faces, indeed, critical timber supply shortages that will cation of the numbers that the member opposite — the lead to mill closures. reference he was making. I just want to make sure I'm Yet a full month before the minister publicly released looking at the correct spot here. a response to the committee's recommendations and the minister gave Hampton Affi liates a letter of intent, N. Macdonald: Th is is from table A9 in the revenue in September 2012, the minister was committing to a by source on page 120, I understand. It talks about rev- conversion of this American company's forest licences enues from forests of $1.276 billion — hopefully, I have to a TFL. that correct — and $1.087 billion for the fi scal years 2006- In the mini-omnibus Bill 8, Miscellaneous Statutes 07 and 2007-08. Amendment Act, the government covertly tried to pass [1545] enabling legislation that would allow cabinet to authorize Th en the question, of course, is just on the diff erences. conversion of forest licences to TFLs. A public outcry in Is that confi ned to stumpage and B.C. Timber Sales rev- early March 2013 forced the government to withdraw the enue, or are there other factors? And if there are other off ending sections of Bill 8. Yet in the Premier's mandate factors, what are they? Can the minister describe them? letter to the minister dated June 10, 2013, she outlined the expected outcomes, and we read that the government Hon. S. Th omson: Without going…. I don't have all plans once again to introduce enabling legislation to per- the specifi cs of the revenue sources in '06-07, '07-08, but mit the rollover of forest licences to TFLs under the pre- I think, as the members opposite know, when we went text of area-based management. into 2008 and '09, that was the signifi cant downturn in I remind the minister of what Vaughn Palmer did not the industry. So those changes would be refl ective of both say in his recent column on the issue — the Vancouver decreased stumpage, as a result of the stumpage reacting Sun, June 26, 2013. What he did not say is that area-based to the market-pricing system as we went into the down- management can happen under any form of tenure, in- turn, and reduced harvest levels. cluding the present TSA system of management. I'll re- I'm also advised that…. Th at's why I say I don't have peat that. Area-based management can happen under all the details. Given the restructuring in the ministry, any form of tenure, including the present TSA system 222 British Columbia Debates Monday, July 8, 2013
of management. form the policy direction. Two, the Special Committee on Timber Supply did [1600] not, in fact, recommend the conversion of volume-based licences to area-based tenures as the Premier contends N. Macdonald: I think of greater concern to the House in her letter to the minister. Rather, the committee gave and to members of the Special Committee on Timber signifi cant and thoughtful cautionary recommendations Supply is the need to respect the public interest on the and stated that if — and that's a big if — conversion to issue of area-based tenures. more area-based tenures is desirable, this is because the committee found during its public hearings that there is [D. Horne in the chair.] still no public consensus on the relative merits of area- based tenures and there is still signifi cant concern about In its response, titled Beyond the Beetle, a mid-term the potential near privatization of our largest public asset. timber supply plan that the minister references, their re- [1555] sponse to recommendation 5.1 of the committee's report Th is concern stems in part because of the unsavoury to the Ministry of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource history of tree farm licences in this province and the im- Operations reaffi rmed this point. mediate concerns about locking up large tracts of land for I think it's important to read the quotation from the timber use when this might not be in the present best in- report that the minister references. "One requirement for terests of British Columbians or in the future interests of any proposed conversion will be ensuring that the pub- our children here in British Columbia. Many view TFLs lic interest is addressed, through the support of…local as a corporate giveaway of public assets with no, or only community, First Nations, stakeholders and the public." limited, strings attached. Others point out that the most As the minister is aware, from the thousands of e-mails atrocious examples of bad forest management have oc- he and the Premier received in one day, in protest against curred on tree farm licences. sections of Bill 8 dealing with the conversion of forest li- My question for the minister is: does he acknowledge cences to TFLs and his government's decision to with- extreme timber supply shortages in the Interior? Does draw the off ending sections, it would be a long stretch to he intend to table TFL-enabling language in this House, assert that reintroduction of legislation enabling corpora- and if so, when? tions to roll over forest licences to TFLs is in the public interest, according to a broad swath of the public. Hon. S. Thomson: Thank you for the question. My question for the minister is: if the public out- Certainly, I understand and agree and note that we have cry against Bill 8 in March of 2013 does not convince a signifi cant issue of mid-term timber supply through him that the forest licence rollover to TFLs for corpora- that region. Th at was the purpose for tasking the com- tions is not in the public interest, then what do British mittee to bring forward recommendations on how we Columbians need to do to convince him? might address that. Th e committee and the members — both members Hon. S. Th omson: I want to reference back to the opposite were members of that committee — did some recommendation that came forward from the committee, good work over that time period and brought forward which was to increase the diversity of area-based tenures recommendations. We responded with Beyond the using criteria for conversion. Make sure that we…. It was Beetle: A Mid-Term Timber Supply Action Plan, ad- quite clear in the recommendations that we needed to do dressing those recommendations brought forward by it in a way that refl ected public interest. I think the com- the committee. mittee heard, through all of the submissions, that there With respect to area-based tenures, that was a recom- were signifi cant benefi ts to area-based management. mendation of the mid-term timber supply committee. I know that that's the genesis and why the recommen- As I committed earlier this spring and as is noted in the dation came forward. You know that we currently have mandate letter, the ministry will launch and engage in a about 20 percent of B.C.'s public land under area-based public engagement process this summer to raise aware- tenure, ranging from woodlots and community forests…. ness about the diff erences between the volume-based We have First Nations woodland licences, tree farm li- and area-based tenures and will solicit the feedback from cences. So, clearly, there is a basis for it. Th ere are provi- communities, First Nations, the forest industry and the sions for it. general public. Th e results of that public engagement will As we have committed, and I think that the members inform the future policy direction. opposite know and were part of some of the concerns As the member opposite clearly pointed out, there that were raised…. I hope what I'm not hearing from the were concerns raised — lots of misinformation, lots of members opposite is that they don't support the public perceptions about what it was and wasn't — and we need dialogue to re-engage the public — and not just the pub- to make sure that we engage in that public process, as I lic but others as we've committed to in the process, which committed we would do. As I said, that process will in- includes First Nations, stakeholder groups, the industry Monday, July 8, 2013 British Columbia Debates 223
— in continued discussion on the benefi ts of area-based I did participate in a process with the Timber Supply tenures. As I said, that will inform the policy direction. Committee — which, in my view, wasn't one that the gov- [1605] ernment took seriously. I don't see the connection, even I think I've always made it clear, even in the discussion of the unanimous recommendations, to decisions the beforehand during Bill 8 and the subsequent decision to government made, in terms of investments in the land, hold that at this time, that the steps that were taken clear- when in practical terms it led to cuts of between $35 mil- ly needed to be in the public interest. lion and $40 million. Process is important. I hope and expect that the discussion and the consul- Now, in terms of the minister, in terms of the summer tation process that we've agreed to take will clarify that not being the right time, this is the time the government and confi rm it and allow us to bring forward policy dir- chose — the summer, right? It's not me who's saying we ection in the area, because I think there is, as clearly rec- should be doing it in the summer. It's what the govern- ommended by the committee, a potential approach that ment suggested needed to happen. I guess the question would contribute to increasing mid-term timber supply is: if not the summer, then when? How long a process are in the future, which was the genesis of their recommen- we talking about? And what, within the budget, has been dations. budgeted for that process? [1610] B. Routley: On March 12, 2013, the minister com- mented in the House on the withdrawal of certain sec- Hon. S. Th omson: Yeah, just to confi rm again, we're tions from Bill 8 dealing with forest licence rollover. I working on the options and potential options about how quote the minister from Hansard: to best undertake that process. We don't have a specifi c "As a result of the need for broader public consultation on this, budget developed. It will be managed within program as was mentioned by the Attorney General, in committee stage budgets. we'll be setting aside those sections of the legislation directed at My expectation is that the time frame we're looking area-based tenure change and initiating a process, a broader pub- lic consultation, this summer based on the recommendations of at would probably be getting into September, which de- the mid-term timber supply special committee and this proposed pending on your defi nition of summer, still includes the legislation." summer. I don't think summer ends until somewhere Will the minister confi rm that this process of broad- into September, if we want to get on to the fi ne points. er public discussion has not yet started or taken place? Again, I think the important point here, to the mem- bers opposite, is that we are in discussions around the Hon. S. Th omson: Yes. I think the question specifi c- options. We do need to…. I am talking to important ally was: can I confi rm that the process hasn't started yet? groups about the best way to undertake that, to ensure And I think that's true; it hasn't. It hasn't started yet in that we get that informed consultation process. As I said, terms of that process. While we have had some discus- we're fully committed to do it, to make sure that we do sions with some organizations — including groups like it in a way that allows for that process and allows for an the professional foresters and others — about how that informed discussion. It is not my intention to undertake process might best take place, we haven't determined the it in a way that would not provide for that opportunity. most appropriate process for that. We intend to do that. I think we would have got that process started earli- A. Weaver: Th e minister has mentioned that he's en- er, except for the current session that we're involved in. gaged discussions with important groups, has mentioned I think we also need to be cognizant…. As we go out in the professional foresters. My question is: have you yet that process, we need to make sure that we go out in a discussed this process development with any environ- time period where the public will be available for that en- mental or other NGOs? gagement. I think the early parts of August and things are probably not the most appropriate time to do that. We Hon. S. Th omson: Th ank you to the member opposite, would be criticized that we're running the process at a I think for the fi rst question. time when people may be more focused on other things. No, not in a formal way yet, recognizing that we are We want to make sure that we do it right. We're work- just getting back into the process here, just really getting ing on the most appropriate options in order to do that. started. Th e discussions even with some of the other or- As I said, we're fully committed to ensure that we engage ganizations have been more on the informal basis at this a process because it is a very important public policy point, just sort of saying…. We haven't put specifi c op- discussion. Clearly, we need to do it in a way that makes tions in front of them. I've just asked them to say: what sure people understand what it is and what it isn't that would you think would be the best way to do this? is being proposed. Certainly, we will have those discussions. As I said, we want to make sure the process is undertaken in a way that N. Macdonald: I'm sure the minister will allow me everybody will be comfortable that it provides for that to be somewhat cynical about these processes, because informed discussion. Th at'll be critical, because I think 224 British Columbia Debates Monday, July 8, 2013
part of the challenge on the last process was perceptions [1620] and misinformation about what was being proposed and what wasn't and how public interest would be confi rmed Hon. S. Th omson: I was just checking here. We don't or would be part of that process. It didn't happen in a have that specifi c breakdown quickly and readily avail- way that might have been most productive, so we want able for the member opposite. We can undertake to pro- to make sure that we do that. vide that and table that information when we resume [1615] tomorrow morning or as soon as possible. But I don't I think there is no intention on my part not to have have the specifi c breakdown with me here. that discussion and not to make sure that it is done in a way that has the best chance of an informed discussion. N. Macdonald: Th ank you, Minister. It's possible that I have had some very casual conversations with repre- the same will have to happen with the next couple of sentatives in that area but nothing formal yet. questions. As has been practice in the past, it's worked well if the minister can provide the information as quick- B. Routley: You'll appreciate that we get asked ques- ly as possible. tions that only the minister can answer, so this question Continuing on that, if you're getting that information, falls into that category. Ahead of any public discussion, how much revenue — again, excluding stumpage — does has the minister already had backdoor discussions with the ministry expect to generate from each of these major West Fraser about granting that corporation the oppor- licences in fi scal years 2014-2015 and 2015-2016? On top tunity to roll over some of its forest licences into a TFL — of that, what is the total AAC of timber associated with quid pro quo, if you will, for West Fraser losing volume each type of agreement? in the Lakes TSA if cabinet grants a TFL to Hampton Affi liates, as promised in the letter of intent? Hon. S. Th omson: Just to clarify, you're asking for that information for that list you just provided of the vari- Hon. S. Th omson: Th e short answer is no. Th ere has ous forms of licences. Yeah, we'll undertake to provide been no…. Th e member opposite tries to infer that there that as well. has been some kind of quid pro quo backdoor discus- sions. Th e answer is clearly no. Very clearly, the process N. Macdonald: My next question for the minister con- would have been designed to ensure that any considera- cerns revenue generated — again, excluding stumpage tion was transparent and in the public interest with noti- — from small business agreements. How much revenue, fi cation and things. excluding stumpage, will the ministry generate from the I think that the member opposite should know that small business forest enterprise program — SBFEP — from time to time over a number of years, not just since non-replaceable and replaceable timber sales licences the mid-term timber supply committee report, people and from small business forest enterprise program non- have talked about some of the benefi ts of area-based replaceable forest licences all combined in this fi scal year? tenure, and other interests and companies have come forward and talked about that — the Sinclar Group and Hon. S. Th omson: Again, in response to the previ- Dunkley, for example. Dunkley held up as a very good ous two questions, we'll include that information in the example of what can be done under area-based man- response. agement. From time to time in the past there has obviously N. Macdonald: Thank you, Minister. If you could been interest expressed. But no, there has been no quid also provide how much revenue, excluding stumpage, pro quo, no backdoor discussions, as the member op- the ministry expects to generate from these small busi- posite infers. ness agreements combined in the fi scal years 2014-15 and 2015-16. I'll just presume the minister will provide N. Macdonald: Next I'd like to drill a little deeper so those as well, and then we'll move on to some other areas that the public, the owner of the biodiversity of our for- of revenue. ests and our water, can gain a better understanding of Th e next question for the minister concerns revenue whether or not this ministry is asserting the fi nancial generated — again, excluding stumpage — from vari- interests of the Crown, as it is required to do under law. ous miscellaneous agreements. Here again, possibly, the Let's begin with a question for the minister on licences minister will have to provide the information later on. to cut timber. How much revenue — and this excludes How much revenue, excluding stumpage, will the min- stumpage — will the ministry generate this fi scal year istry generate from licences to cut, free use permits, road for each of the following types of licences? I'll give you permits and Christmas tree permits combined in the fi s- a number of them here: timber licence, forest licence, cal year as well as 2014-2015, 2015-2016? woodlot licence, timber sale licence and pulpwood agree- ments. Th is is excluding stumpage. Hon. S. Th omson: Yeah, we'll add that request to the Monday, July 8, 2013 British Columbia Debates 225
list and provide that information. I thought we might Hon. S. Th omson: Again, I know that the member have just reduced the workload a little bit with your fi rst opposite probably did look as deep as he could on the question, when you mentioned just the one year, and website to fi nd that. Th e numbers are, as you know…. then you added in the extra years to it. So I thought…. Particularly the production portion of it is a dynamic But I fully expected that that was what was going to hap- number. I'm advised that we can produce that number pen, and we'll make sure we provide, to the degree that for you, and we'll undertake to do that as quick as we can. we can, that information for all of those categories and It's just going to take a bit of calculation, but we'll under- for those respective years. take to ensure that you get that information.
B. Routley: My next question relates to tree farm li- N. Macdonald: I guess a further question. One would cences. I believe the ministry has some 34 tree farm li- hope that this would be more readily available. What is cences on its books. Would the minister provide the the total combined AAC for all of the TFLs? revenue, excluding stumpage, it will generate from TFLs this fi scal year? Hon. S. Th omson: Th e total AAC in TFLs: 12.5 mil- [1625] lion cubic metres. I can also provide the response, be- cause I think the question previously was around the total Hon. S. Th omson: Again, we'll undertake to provide hectares in TFLs. Th e total area in hectares: 5.6 million. that information. Th is is drilling down into a level of de- tail, in terms of aggregating up the revenue sources, that N. Macdonald: Th ank you, Minister. we can provide. We just don't have it specifi cally with us Would the minister please confi rm that the provincial here at this point. We're developing a list, and we'll make annual allowable cut for TFLs is determined on the same sure we provide that information for you. volume basis used to determine the AACs, or annual al- lowable cuts, on timber supply areas — TSAs? B. Routley: I understand that it'll take some time, and I Hon. S. Th omson: Yes. assume this question will get added to the list. How much revenue, excluding stumpage, does the ministry expect N. Macdonald: We spent quite a bit of time in the to generate, from all TFLs combined, in the fi scal years Timber Supply Committee talking about area-based 2014 and 2015-16? management. As the minister knows, that refers to a number of diff erent tenures. Here we're more focused on Hon. S. Th omson: Sorry, I presume there was a ques- TFLs, which is one type of area-based tenure. tion there. So again, we'll add that to the list of informa- [1635] tion that we've undertaken to provide. What we found in those lengthy discussions is that there really was no evidence to support the assertion N. Macdonald: I was presuming that the minister was that there is any enhanced management of forest lands going to take that on as well. under TFLs or, really, TSAs, except under innovative for- During the public outcry against sections of Bill 8, the est practices agreements because of incentives. Miscellaneous Statutes Amendment Act, that dealt with If the minister can show otherwise, could he please enabling corporations to roll over forest licences to TFLs, advise the House and the public as to where there are the government argued that forest management on TFLs quantifi able examples of corporate tenure holders spend- is area-based and preferable to volume-based manage- ing more on enhanced forestry eff orts on TFLs than the ment. But what has always been lacking in this debate same corporate interests spend on TSAs? Where is that is any substantiation of that claim. Now, there are many evidence? When we were with the committee, we asked diff erent types of area-based management, but of course, again and again, and it wasn't presented. the debate on Bill 8 focused on the rollover to TFLs. Th e question I have for the minister…. Th ere are a Hon. S. Th omson: Th rough the process of the mid- couple here. Th e fi rst is: how many hectares of the prov- term timber supply committee work, I think there were ince are in TFLs? Here, I think one would expect a basic many submissions that talked about the benefi ts of area- forestry statistic like this to be readily available on the based management — additional investments in silvi- ministry's website. I apologize if I couldn't fi nd it, but I culture and forest management resulting in increased had to go back to 1994, where the ministry pegged the productivity. A couple of good examples. One I refer- TFL area at 7,537,387 hectares, of which 4,221,687 were enced before with the Dunkley TFL. Th ere is specifi c considered to be productive for growing timber. information that shows the benefi ts of that approach to Perhaps the minister could update the House with the area-based management there. We know West Fraser, in comparable statistic for 2013. TFL 52, plants higher densities and achieves additional [1630] productivity. 226 British Columbia Debates Monday, July 8, 2013
So I think there is good evidence in terms of the ap- were given to consider this, there would have to be dem- proach to area-based management, particularly in rela- onstrated evidence of the additional management and tion to the other forms of area-based management as additional investments that would take place that would well. Also, it's important to point out that I think that's contribute to that increase in mid-term timber supply information that needs to form part of the public consul- and create that additional volume. Th at will be part of tation and dialogue process as we go out in the consulta- the basis of the further consultation that needs to take tion process that we've committed to do. place, as we've committed to do.
N. Macdonald: Here I presume that the minister is not N. Macdonald: It has been a year since the question referencing anything that would have been done under was asked, and the minister says there is evidence but innovative forest practices agreements, so it's separate can't produce it. So there's no academic evidence. Even from that. I do remember many of the discussions that what the minister referenced…. we had with the committee. Certainly, many of the addi- I'm not a forester, but even I know that when you're tional fi bre that was found simply came through doing a talking about planting in higher densities, you're really better job with inventory and so on. talking about stocking standards, right? And stocking Nevertheless, even if the minister has accurately repre- standards…. Am I correct, Minister, that that can be sented in an anecdotal manner some benefi ts, I think the done in a TSA — that you can set higher stocking stan- minister would accept that, anecdotally, one could fi nd dards and have all of those things happening without roll- examples of poor management within TFLs, right? So I ing over into a TFL? Is that correct? think to have a debate where one simply lift s anecdotes [1650] about a particular thing that happened is hardly the due diligence one would expect from the ministry. Hon. S. Th omson: I think, arguably, you could answer [1640] that question by saying: "Yes, you could." I think the prin- Within the committee process that we had, we asked ciple, though, that we're looking for in the area-based for academic research, work that would be done. It is management approach is looking at the overall manage- now a year since we asked the ministry at that commit- ment regime in any areas that you might consider. tee for any evidence they were aware of. We were told Th at goes directly back to the recommendations of the very clearly, and it's there in the minutes, that there was committee and the reference from the committee — that no evidence the ministry could provide of academic re- by looking at past performance, commitment to sustain- search that supports the assertion that is behind a roll- able forest management, commitment to investment in over to the TFLs. forest management, including but not limited to silvi- I guess the question is: a year on, having surely pre- culture investment…. What we're looking for in this ap- pared packages of evidence to support what was put for- proach to area-based is a more comprehensive, overall ward in Bill 8, can the minister provide any academic management approach to those areas where we would evidence to support the assertion that is part of what the clearly see those benefi ts. Premier is instructing the minister to do? I think that understanding of what we're looking for and those processes is, clearly, why the committee made Hon. S. Thomson: I think, clearly, there is work the recommendation they did. Th ey did, I know…. I can't underway, as part of the package that will be utilized see the committee making the recommendation for that in the consultation process, around empirical evidence if there weren't, clearly, benefi ts to that approach. Th at's of the benefi ts. We've referenced a number of examples. why they've asked us to look at it and, also, to be able to Th ere are studies that indicate the benefi ts of that addi- provide the enabling legislation and regulations to be tional silviculture investment. able to do that. It's developing that more comprehensive I think the important point, though, is to reference approach to area-based management. back to the committee's recommendation where it talked We think it's something that's worth considering, but about "before considering a conversion" of the volume- we also agree that it needs to have that further public con- based tenure, whole or in part, to area-based. sultation process. Th e work that is being looked at will [1645] inform part of the discussion documents and informa- In considering those conversions, it would have to take tion that go out in that process — will include all of that into account — this is where we talk about the public in- information and will include examples and evidence of terest — commitment to sustainable forest management, where that approach benefi ts and works. commitment to silviculture investments, community and First Nations support for the process through a public N. Macdonald: Here is the question. I'm open to any consultation. of these ideas, and I was open on the committee. But Clearly, in considering any applications that would there is a requirement on government to approach this have come forward in this process, before any invitations with some rigour and to be able to provide some proof Monday, July 8, 2013 British Columbia Debates 227
to broad assertions. that when they make sweeping statements and, I think, Quite frankly, I'm troubled about what sort of process more comprehensive management, benefi ts like that, that you are going to have when you cannot go to the public the minister alludes to…. So there's a statement from with any sort of independent proof of things that, I think, the minister, and then there's no proof to back up that are going to be asserted at these processes. It reminds assertion. me of the Fraser Institute, where they have a conclu- Just a simple question: does the minister have proof sion, and then they build proof to reach that conclusion that more money is spent on enhanced silviculture in every time. It sounds like you're going to have the same TFLs than on TSAs in general? Is there concrete proof sort of process. that the minister can point to that backs up the asser- If you cannot identify, aft er a year of being asked where tions that are being made here? the academic proof is, that this is a preferable system — that rolling over into TFLs is going to produce better re- Hon. S. Th omson: Again, I want to go back to the sults — you have no…. Th is government has produced commitment and the point that I made that this informa- no academic proof of that assertion. tion will be part of the package for the consultation pro- Now, the minister has also asserted that, in cer- cess. I did indicate that I would review, this evening, the tain cases, anecdotally, he can claim — within TFLs in status of the report and that information. If I can table Dunkley, West Fraser, for example — there are improve- that without compromising the process going forward, I ments. Can the minister provide for this House studies will undertake to do that. that the ministry has done, over the breadth of TFLs that But I also want to make it clear, because I think there's are available, where there is conclusive proof that rolling a basic point here that while the options going forward over into TFLs has produced the results that the minister are forward-looking, when we talk about looking around is asserting they have produced? the opportunities for area-based tenures…. While we will [1655] have examples of where it has been benefi cial, I think the important point — and what we made clear, and I hoped I Hon. S. Th omson: As I've indicated, as part of the made clear in all of the discussion earlier this year around process around public consultation and going out with that — was the fact that this is not about, as some people the information, clearly, that's information that will be try to portray it, wholesale conversion. required. We're committed to provide that as part of the This is about finding those areas and those oppor- discussion paper. We have information, and the evidence tunities where there could be commitments around en- will be part of the discussion paper and information. Th e hanced forest management, enhanced silviculture, which commitment is that that will be included as we move for- would provide the basis to provide that opportunity that ward with the consultation process. clearly would be in the public interest, would clearly be through a transparent and fully open process. N. Macdonald: Will the minister table the informa- [1705] tion they have today that the minister is citing as proof? So we're not, in terms of providing the information, looking back at a whole sort of average. Th e member Hon. S. Th omson: Just to confi rm again, the com- opposite did indicate that there is evidence of TFLs that mitment that I made is to ensure that this information would not have performed to the standard, and I think is part of the public consultation package or process as it that's correct. goes out. I will undertake this evening to determine the What we're looking at is providing the enabling legisla- current status of that work and to see what portion of it tion which would allow us to have the policy in place that I may be able to table directly at this point. would allow us to go forward with these opportunities. But I also want to be clear that I want to make sure I think that's entirely consistent with the recommenda- it is done in a way that ensures that the information is tions of the mid-term timber supply committee. complete, because it will be part of the package. So we'll undertake to check that. N. Macdonald: I mean, this is what's diff erent about [1700] this consultation. Th e Premier has put in place instruc- Again, I want to restate the commitment that the infor- tions to the minister in terms of what he is supposed to mation we have been addressing here and talking about accomplish as relates to the TFLs. And here we are, a will be part of the consultation process and package with year aft er questions were asked about any evidence that that process as we go out to undertake to engage with what's being proposed is actually there, and the minister both public and industry organizations, with other in- still can't produce any measurable diff erence between terested parties and organizations and communities and what happens in the TSA and what happens in the TFL. First Nations — when we undertake that process. So the question is: if it's not in the public interest and the minister cannot provide proof that it's in the public N. Macdonald: I'm sure the minister can understand interest, then whose interests are served by proposed roll- 228 British Columbia Debates Monday, July 8, 2013
overs of forest licences to TFLs? We're going to move from this now, I think, unless there's something new to be said, because it's going to Hon. S. Th omson: Th e member opposite asked whose play itself out elsewhere. But is the minister aware of the interest is being served by considering this. I think that problems that it creates, not only in terms of public policy very, very clearly, the interest that's being served is the but also for the forest industry if this issue is handled as interests of workers, the interests of communities, the poorly as I fear it's going to be handled? interests of everybody involved in the industry through that area. Th e purpose of this, and the purpose of the Hon. S. Th omson: Clearly and for sure, I understand recommendations of the committee, was to look at op- the obligation that's required to do that. Th at's why we tions that would increase mid-term timber supply avail- committed to the further consultation process. When ability, knowing the impact of the mountain pine beetle that decision was made, I think generally, while it was a that we're dealing with. diffi cult decision for me to make, it was a decision that So as part of the overall recommendations, this was a was welcomed by many, in terms of ensuring that we recommendation that the committee felt could contrib- take that step and we do it. Th at's our commitment: to ute to that. I know that the recommendation was done go through that, through the process. in the context of being able to contribute to additional As I've indicated, the evidence will be part of that dis- volume. Being able to do that means that when we go cussion. It will have to be, in order for it to be a success- through all the community adjustment and potential ful process. I certainly, given the experience of the initial rationalization that will occur as a result of all this, if we approach, understand that that needs to be done. can fi ll in some of that mid-term timber supply, then the You know, I'm a little concerned, with reference to the ultimate benefi t and the interest that's being served is points being made by the members opposite. I'm just try- the communities', is the workers', is the indirect benefi ts ing to step back a little bit and really question whether in all of those communities. Th at was the purpose of the the members opposite — as it was a unanimous recom- mid-term timber supply committee work. mendation of the mid-term timber supply committee re- Clearly, there is an interest in looking at this. Th is is port — really believe in this approach around area-based not, as some people perceived it, about wholesale conver- management or not. sion. Th is is fi nding those areas and sweet spots where I'm getting a sense that support for that may have that approach would work, would contribute to that. shift ed away from the recommendations that you were Again, as I pointed out, the process and vision are that a part of in making the recommendations. I hope that's it would be done in a fully transparent manner, it would not the case, because I think it does require a good, in- have to have all the support, and it would have to be able formed public discussion. We've committed to do that, to clearly demonstrate the public interest. and I hope that the members opposite will be a positive part of that discussion. N. Macdonald: What the minister will know and what staff can confi rm is that this area-based management can N. Macdonald: Diversity of tenures is diff erent than take all sorts of diff erent forms — right? Th e discussion more TFLs, right? Th e idea of having area-based, I think, that we had within the committee talked about many is a discussion worth having, but the government is fi x- diff erent forms. ated on TFLs. [1710] In terms of believing in the process, I can tell the min- Th e government in the past has talked about increasing ister that I want to believe in these processes. I do want to community forests, talked about First Nations licences believe. Th e minister will remember that when we were and all sorts of area-based management. Th e minister leaked a document that had all sorts of items that were will know that area-based management can take place damaging to the government, damaging to the industry within an existing TSA as well. But there is this focus on and damaging to the B.C. brand — that leaked cabinet TFLs, and I think it's fair to say that the government is document — we did not come into question period and using area-based management as a distraction or a red try to surprise government. Th e minister was not here herring to convince the public of the dubious or nonex- that day, but we went to Minister Bell. We gave them the istent benefi ts of TFL tenure. document, and we gave the Premier the opportunity to Th e minister has an obligation to make the case with be prepared for the questions that we had. And we of- proof, rather than simply asserting that something is so, fered at that time to participate in any process that the and, a year on, cannot provide any evidence that a TFL minister or the government put together. tenure is the way to get at this. I think many would think [1715] that the real hidden agenda of the government is not When that time came, despite our worries, which we tenure reform to achieve area-based management in the laid out in a letter to the minister and which the minis- public interest but the creation of more TFLs in the pri- ter ignored, we participated fully and constructively in vate, corporate interest. reaching — and we, as opposition, pushed to get to — a Monday, July 8, 2013 British Columbia Debates 229
unanimous set of recommendations. Hon. S. Th omson: We're just getting that specifi c in- I think the minister will remember that coming out of formation for you, but I have here directly the informa- that, we had recommendations on inventory, on silvicul- tion for '13-14: on the coast, $72.1 million, and in the ture, on a whole host of areas that…. Instead of getting Interior, $385 million. I'll provide '14-15 and '15-16 as the supports that they need, the government chose to cut soon as it's provided here. $40 million from the exact areas that we recommended unanimously that investments should be made in. B. Routley: Th e ministry's annual fi nancial statements So, fi rst, it's my job to be skeptical. Th at's what I'm show very clearly that total stumpage revenues have been supposed to be doing. But it's pretty easy to be skeptical declining for some time. Can the minister tell us why about processes when over the past eight years — and this is the case? this past election — again and again, the intent to act in [1725] a constructive way seems remarkably naive. Again, with this process, I have big questions about Hon. S. Th omson: Th ere are a number of factors. As what the public process will look like, if there's an agen- you know, the industry has come through one of the most da that will be driven, which I frankly think is going to diffi cult downturns in the industry. Th e factors: less har- be the case. So let's leave it for there. Th at's a discussion vest; less volume; lower prices, which refl ects itself in that will take place. the market pricing system; in the Interior, particularly, But as I said before, if the government gets this wrong, the concentration on the pine harvest; BCTS, which is it is not simply the opposition that will be disappointed. a contributor — less volume being sold through BCTS It is the B.C. brand that could be damaged. We saw that through that time period. with the reaction that came very quickly to Bill 8. Th e Again, as we pointed out earlier, and as you referenced, last thing in a time of recovery that this industry needs the trend is recovering. We're starting to see in the quar- is another war in the woods. terly updates, as I mentioned, the stumpage values come back up. So a whole combination of factors. If the minister thinks that there's a level of trust in What's important to note is that that was what the what the government is doing there, it simply isn't so. market pricing system was designed to do: to refl ect the It's one thing to say "transparency." It's one thing to talk market and to make sure that the industry was in a com- about these things, but it has to be demonstrable. It has petitive position internationally. It is what has allowed to be something that, if I were to participate or to watch, them to be in a position to take advantage and recover — I would walk away saying: "Oh, yeah, that was an hon- the recovery currently. est eff ort." I can also provide the information on the coast and Th at will be the test for the government. Of course, the Interior forecasts. For 2014-15, coast at $79 million, government is going to do what the government will do, Interior at $405 million, and for 2015-16, coast at $89 but that will be the test. People who are participating — million and Interior at $424 million, approximately. are they going to be fed a line or walk away feeling they're being fed a line with an agenda that's set, or is it some- N. Macdonald: Can the minister tell us how much of thing that's going to seem honest and sincere? last year's stumpage revenues refl ected a billing and sub- I can tell you, so far — unable to produce academic sequent paying of just 25 cents a cubic metre? Of course, support for assertions, to seem to have a preordained out- 25 cents a cubic metre is the minimum stumpage, and come — these are all troubling signs for what's coming. for those that are following the debate, a cubic metre of Let's switch to stumpage, then. Help me to understand wood is a telephone pole. a few of these things. In order for stumpage revenues to Can the minister tell us approximately how much of increase, it seems to me that one of three things has to the ministry's projected stumpage revenues in the com- happen. Either markets have to improve, logging rates ing year are expected to fall into this category? And at the must increase or the overall quality of the trees selected same time, what percentage of volume was harvested and for logging must go up. minimum stumpage paid on? So those two fi gures: how To better understand the revenue projections before much of the ministry's projected stumpage revenues and us, could the minister provide us with a breakdown of what that represents in terms of percentage of volume projected stumpage revenues from the interior of the that minimum stumpage was paid on. province and, separate from that, from the coast for this [1730] fi scal year, for 2014-15 and for 2015-16? For the minister as well, hopefully, that's information that could be pro- [R. Chouhan in the chair.] vided to the House as quickly as possible. If we have that breakdown between the Interior and the coast, those are Hon. S. Th omson: For 2012-13, percentages of vol- the numbers we're looking for. ume: on the coast, 70 percent; and in the Interior, 34.4 [1720] percent. 230 British Columbia Debates Monday, July 8, 2013
N. Macdonald: Minister, thank you for that. Th at's on N. Macdonald: Minister, can you tell us how long volume, I presume. the minimum stumpage rate has been set at 25 cents a Th e revenue. If the minister could also tell us how cubic metre? much it represented in terms of the percentage of rev- [1740] enue. I had two questions. One was on volume, which I think the minister answered, and just the percentage in Hon. S. Th omson: Th e minimum stumpage rate has terms of revenue — again, both the coast and the Interior. been at that level since 1987.
Hon. S. Th omson: For 2012-13, again, the total value B. Routley: Given that one of the key roles of the on the coast for under-minimums was $2 million, and minister's offi ce is to take into account public good and the total value on the stumpage at greater than min- to ensure that suffi cient revenue is brought in from the imums, $67 million. For the Interior the comparable sales of products from within his ministry, can the min- numbers are $3½ million for under-minimums and ister tell us whether or not, in preparing stumpage rev- $293.6 million on volumes that were greater than min- enue estimates that the ministry…? Have they considered imums. whether or not it's feasible to raise minimum stumpage charges? For example, some people have suggested to us N. Macdonald: Th ank you, Minister. We'll continue as MLAs that even if you were to increase the minimum with the stumpage. But just coming back to a previous stumpage some 400 percent, that would mean only a dol- topic, if the minister is getting information, is it possible lar at a minimum for every cubic metre of wood logged for the minister to get information on the investment per on Crown land. hectare on TFLs and the investment per hectare on the A metre — and I know the minister knows this, but regular TSAs? And if the minister wants to include any of for those that are listening — is roughly the size of a tele- the other types of tenures…. But those are the two, pri- phone pole, and there are roughly 35, 40 cubic metres marily, that it would be interesting to see. on a highway logging truck. So you're looking at a small With that, I'll just presume that the minister, as always, amount of money still. My question is: given that there will endeavour to do that. If it's possible, I'll turn it over are changes coming — you know, the supercycle that the to my colleague for his question. minister and others have talked about — have you given any consideration to looking at that? B. Routley: As we know, trees on the coast of British Columbia are vastly diff erent from trees logged in the Hon. S. Th omson: We've been, obviously, monitor- Interior. Th e Interior, for that matter, has also seen a de- ing the stumpage rates and harvest volumes and every- cline in the value of overall timber profi le because of the thing very carefully. Our key objective is to ensure that mountain pine beetle. we continue to see the harvest levels of activity, because For the most part, tree health on the coast is quite good, that's what creates the jobs. Th at's what creates the other and the fact that many overseas companies are now pay- revenues to the province in terms of taxes and other eco- ing huge sums for raw logs to be shipped to them is an nomic activity. Th at's why we're starting to see the invest- indication of just how good the quality of much of the ment come back into the industry — close to a million coastal timber profi le is. dollars in investment in the last two years in capital in- [1735] vestment. So that creates additional revenues for the In light of this, could the minister explain to us why province. it is that on some coastal TFLs and TSAs today, up to 40 [1745] percent or more of all of the trees logged result in the As the market continues to improve, we are going to lowest stumpage charges possible, just 25 cents a cubic see a smaller and smaller proportion of the volumes on metre? minimum. So it's always working to make sure that we have that balance, to ensure that we have a competitive Hon. S. Th omson: Th e quick answer, the short answer, industry. to the question is that it's as a result of the higher cost of Th e current market pricing system that we have in harvesting in many areas of the coast. Th at includes road place is what has ensured the industries in that position development costs, higher costs of silviculture, higher move forward as the market improves and the recovery costs of logging and transportation. All of those costs comes. move it into the negative indicator rate and, as a result, I just want to clarify the point that the member oppos- result in minimum levels of stumpage. ite made when he talks about many people predicting the It's also as a result of, generally, the industry having to supercycle to come. I think we all on both sides of the move into those higher-cost areas as they continue to log House will hope that that happens. I've always been, in on the coast. So it's not surprising that much of it is on my comments to the organizations, the meetings, a little minimum stumpage rates. more cautious on that, to say that we're in a period of Monday, July 8, 2013 British Columbia Debates 231
market improvement and we think it's going to be sus- I might add there that when I fi rst started in the for- tained. But there's still lots of recovery to take place yet est industry, one of the companies, B.C. Forest Products, for the industry and, I think, lots before we have what got caught by check scalers down at Shoal Island with people may say is the supercycle. not enough…. Th eir check-scaling proved and showed We're certainly working to continue to build the mar- that the company hadn't been paying suffi cient stump- kets and diversify the markets, and we're certainly watch- age. Th ere are, by my assessment of the current on-line ing the stumpage or the volumes in relation to stumpage provincial government directory, currently 21 men and revenues. It's something we continue to monitor. And as women employed in a check-scaling capacity in the min- I said, less and less proportion as things improve will be istry. Can the minister please explain to us what check on minimums. We're already seeing that start to happen. scalers are now doing? [1755] A. Weaver: I was wondering whether the minister has considered the introduction of diff erential stumpage fees Hon. S. Th omson: For 2012, for the calendar year, for those logs which are exported off shore versus those there were 525 active scalers and 1,273 check scales per- logs which are processed locally, to promote B.C. jobs formed in 4,060 active months. Th at is based on…. Th at's over foreign jobs. one check scale for every 2.65 active months. So 0.1 per- cent of the loads were check-scaled, and 7.8 percent of Hon. S. Th omson: No. Th e current approach is to col- loads were replaced by the check scale. Th ere were 870 lect on those volumes that go export, the export fee-in- active scale sites and 2,064 scale site inspections per- lieu. Th at's the manner in which we collect revenue for formed. those logs that go export. Th at's the additional charge that we collect there. It's through the fee-in-lieu process and N. Macdonald: When the minister is talking about the not through a diff erential stumpage. volumes that we're dealing with and having — I'm not [1750] sure if I heard the minister correctly — 21 women and men that do this work, or in that neighbourhood, it's just N. Macdonald: My next question touches on another hard to believe that there's any rigour to that. aspect of revenue collecting and revenue analysis. Can Can the minister tell us whether, in his opinion, the the minister tell us how, generally, the ministry ensures current cruise-based system ensures that the public gets that the provincial treasury receives adequate compen- a fair return? And, I think, more importantly, rather than sation from companies logging on public forest lands? simply an assertion, what evidence is there to support what the minister's answer is going to be? I really look, Hon. S. Th omson: Th e revenue is determined, as you here, for evidence to support any assertion he makes know, through the market pricing system. That pro- about the cruise-based system, ensuring that the minis- cess is determined through the B.C. Timber Sales pro- ter lives up to his obligations to get a fair return for the cess, which is part of our soft wood lumber agreement. public resource. As you know, approximately 20 percent of the volume is auctioned through the BCTS process. Th at sets the mar- Hon. S. Th omson: I just wanted to make clear to the ket pricing system from which stumpage is generated. members opposite, around cruise-based billing…. It's It's all based on the market pricing system, which is set important to point out that on the coast the percentage and determined under our soft wood lumber agreement of cruise-based harvest is only 9 percent on the total, and and obligations. 91 percent is scale-based. In the Interior that percentage is higher. It's 49 percent in the Interior, and that's pri- B. Routley: Prior to the introduction of cruise-based marily because the cruise-based process is focused on pricing — it is now the common form of determining the pine harvest, where the stands and everything are the value of trees before they are logged and serves to set much more uniform. what stumpage payments logging companies make to the [1800] province — it was commonplace for public servants em- On the coast, in particular, it's something that we're ployed by the Ministry of Forests to go into the fi eld and moving into very carefully. We're targeting it only at the verify the accuracy of log scales done by the companies. low-value and the low-quality timber, as I said, primarily Th ese public servants were and are known as check in the mountain pine beetle stands in the Interior and, to scalers. Th ey actually check randomly selected loads of a very limited extent, on the coast. logs that had been scaled or measured by people em- ployed by or under contract to logging companies to B. Routley: Can the minister tell us whether or not ensure that their measurements were accurate and that public servants working for his ministry are aware of the public got a fair return for the trees logged on pub- any instances where, as a result of cruise-based pricing, lic lands. the public may potentially have been shortchanged by 232 British Columbia Debates Monday, July 8, 2013
this system? since these are in process before the courts, I think I'll limit the response to that — that those were discovered. Hon. S. Thomson: The answer is yes. There are a Actions are being taken, being pursued, and as both of couple of examples that we're aware of. It's important to those are before the courts, I'm going to leave it at that. point out that those two specifi cally…. Th ose cases are before the courts. Th e Chair: Member, as the minister has advised that these cases are before the court, I would caution the N. Macdonald: Could the minister tell us the two member to proceed with caution with respect to discus- cases and what sort of expectation we have for learning sion of the question of these cases. of an outcome? Maybe the minister could even say what the possible fi nes are — what sort of ranges we're talk- N. Macdonald: Fair enough. I'll take that under ad- ing about. Specifi cally: what are the two cases? Where visement. But who's involved is not secret, and who's are they? Th en also, where it is in the system. And what involved is not going to have anything to do with what range of fi nes are we talking about? goes on in the court, right? Th ese are not secret trials, and presumably, it's written down in all sorts of places as to Hon. S. Th omson: Th e penalties in these situations…. who is actually involved. As I said, these two that I referenced are before the courts. I mean, it is interesting that with the very small per- Th e penalties are the diff erences in stumpage. centage of cruise-based activity that takes place, both [1805] cases where something was found are on the coast, right? Th ese were determined…. When you compare the I think the minister said only 7 percent of the actual…. cruise to what was scaled, discrepancies were identifi ed. We work with C and E — compliance and enforcement — Interjection. and the Ministry of Finance when these situations arise, in pursuing them. N. Macdonald: It's 9 percent. Th e member corrects I think, given that the two cases are before the courts, me. Nine percent is on the coast, and there we found two. I'm not prepared to provide the specifi cs or details for Let's spend a bit of time. First, I think it's valid to know that reason, other than to say that the system is designed who the companies are. Th at's fair enough, right? Th at to detect those discrepancies. Where they're found, they doesn't…. I mean, we've got lawyers here. Unless some- are pursued. An example of the fact that these are in that body tells me that's going to impinge on somebody get- process shows that on the risk-based process, we do de- ting a fair trial, then — fair enough — tell me the names tect those. And where they do, we will pursue them. of the companies involved. Secondly, I'm just curious: if the penalty is simply to N. Macdonald: So I just want to understand. The pay the proper stumpage, and we're mainly dealing with presumption is, and the presumption always was, that cases of minimum stumpage, what other charges would this system would be moved from the pine beetle area, go to the businesses that don't do this properly? where we're generally talking about minimum stumpage Do they have to pay for the process? Do they have to — right? — to areas on the coast. Th e minister has talked pay court costs for the public? Or are we actually deal- about 9 percent. I'll ask a question on that later. ing with getting minimum stumpage and already get- But let's presume that these trials aren't secret trials — ting so little in revenue that in taking them to court, the right? So let's have who's involved in these. Th en I think company is not penalized to any extent if the public wins, it's fair to say that if all that happens aft er taking them and we have the cost of taking them to court as well? Are to court is that the correct stumpage is paid, that's not you seriously telling me that that's the process to make heavily punitive, I would say. If the intention is to change sure that the public interest is safeguarded in collecting behaviour, that seems a fairly good deal to have as the what's properly supposed to be coming to the Crown? Is worst outcome — that you actually pay what you're sup- that what's happening? posed to pay. Let's have the names of the companies, and let's have, Tell us who's involved here. It would be interesting, as well, a further explanation of the process here. as well, to know: are we talking about either of the two [1815] active on the coast, or are both in the Interior? Th at's pri- marily where I'm interested, but as I say, these trials aren't Hon. S. Th omson: Again, going back to my previous secret, so the minister, I'm sure, can name names here. answer, as I indicated, both of these situations are before [1810] the courts. I'm not going to comment further, as they are before the courts. What this does point out — and I think Hon. S. Th omson: Just to confi rm, I think the question it goes back to my original point — a small percentage of was: were these two examples referenced in the Interior the total on Vancouver Island, on the coast in particular, or on the coast? Th e two examples are on the coast. Again, is under the cruise-based billing. Monday, July 8, 2013 British Columbia Debates 233
Th ese examples show that the processes are in place. revenue. Audit controls must be fully understood. So Where there are infractions or steps taken to get around we're clearly, as I said earlier, moving ahead cautiously or to utilize the cruise-based system to their individual and carefully. We do have an audit process in place to advantage…. Th ose are caught. We work with compli- make sure that as we move forward with it, it will be done ance and enforcement and Ministry of Finance in pursu- in a very careful manner to make sure that all of those ing those. Th e fact that these cases are there shows that checks and balances are in place. we do have integrity in this system. As pointed out, we use it to a much higher percentage B. Routley: Th e minister is aware that revenues paid in the Interior, where the stands are uniform. We're mov- by logging companies are tracked in a provincial data- ing slowly on the coast to make sure that we maintain the base and that that database shows the volume, species integrity of the system as we utilize it — again, proceed- and grade of trees logged throughout the province of ing very carefully and cautiously in that direction. British Columbia. Could the minister explain how the information in N. Macdonald: Well, I think what would give us that database, known as the harvest billing system, may some confi dence is if we have some basic information. have changed in terms of its accuracy since we've had I mean, there might be a reason — a legal reason that I cruise-based timber pricing in British Columbia? don't understand — why you wouldn't name the busi- [1825] nesses. Maybe you're in the midst of doing an investiga- tion. I don't know. Th e way that the minister framed it is Th e Chair: Minister, noting the hour. that it's in front of the court, which I presume is public. Now, maybe there's something I don't understand, but Hon. S. Th omson: Noting the hour. Does that mean there we are. you want me to hold the answer to the question till to- I think the bigger concern is that the minister has morrow? talked about this system moving onto the coast. Th e minister has acknowledged, without answering many of Th e Chair: Minister, you can provide us the answer, the questions that I had, that both of the cases show that then move the motion aft erwards. with the small number of people that actually check on whether cruise-based is legitimately collecting the rev- Hon. S. Th omson: Okay. Very quickly, then, just to enues that the Crown deserves, there have been prob- note that under the cruise system, it's the volume and the lems on the coast. species that are entered into the harvest billing system. So the question is…. Maybe the minister could tell us Th at's what's changed. When that system is used, that's when we can expect to see cruise-based pricing widely what goes into the harvest billing system, and that's the employed on the coast. It's always been the assumption basis of billing. that's going to take place. Noting the hour, I move that the committee rise, report [1820] progress and ask leave to sit again. If the minister thinks, as he's asserted, that I should have or the public should have confi dence in the checks Motion approved. and balances that are there, I can assure you that is cer- tainly not the case from the limited information that the Th e committee rose at 6:27 p.m. minister has provided. I guess that the question is: when does the minister anticipate the government moving Th e House resumed; Madame Speaker in the chair. this system onto the coast? And what are the real checks and balances that are going to be, hopefully, in place to Committee of Supply (Section B), having reported ensure that companies pay adequately the value of each progress, was granted leave to sit again. and every tree cut? And how are public servants going to ensure that this is the case? Committee of Supply (Section A), having reported progress, was granted leave to sit again. Hon. S. Th omson: Again, just to be clear, where we've moved to cruise-based processes more signifi cantly is in Hon. T. Lake moved adjournment of the House. the Interior, as I pointed out in the percentages. Again, that is in targeting low-value, high-volume stands, par- Motion approved. ticularly in the mountain pine beetle area. We're not planning on signifi cantly increasing cruise- Madame Speaker: Th is House, at its rising, stands ad- based processes on the coast. It has the potential to in- journed until 10 a.m. tomorrow morning. crease, but prior to any further expansion we need to carefully look at utilization and impacts on government Th e House adjourned at 6:28 p.m. 234 British Columbia Debates Monday, July 8, 2013
As a government, we are committed to developing a PROCEEDINGS IN THE white paper that will explore key issues that aff ect people DOUGLAS FIR ROOM living with disabilities in British Columbia. Th is paper will be developed as part of a consultation process that Committee of Supply will culminate in a provincial summit. As well, we support more than 15,500 individuals with ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF developmental disabilities and their families through SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT AND Community Living British Columbia. I'm pleased to say SOCIAL INNOVATION that work is ongoing to improve that support. Beginning today, there is a new, simplifi ed process for Th e House in Committee of Supply (Section A); M. youth with developmental disabilities who are apply- Dalton in the chair. ing for persons-with-disabilities assistance. Youth with an existing assessment by a registered psychologist or a Th e committee met at 2:50 p.m. certifi ed school psychologist will no longer have to com- plete the PWD designation form as part of the applica- On Vote 41: ministry operations, $2,487,215,000. tion process. One of the things I learned about this ministry very Th e Chair: Minister, do you have opening statements? early on in my tenure here is that a 23-page form that perhaps is going to tell us what we already know is Hon. D. McRae: I want to start by introducing and something that we can actually simplify for families and thanking the ministry staff that are joining me here today. the individuals involved. It is the right thing to do, and To my right is my deputy minister, Sheila Taylor. Joining I'm very pleased today that we are able to make that an- her today is, to my left , Wes Boyd, the ADM responsible nouncement. Th is change is a result of the ongoing work for the management services division. To my back right is government is doing to improve services and supports for Sharon Moysey, ADM for our regional services division. people with developmental disabilities and their families. Behind is Molly Harrington, the ADM of the ministry's Th e focus of the budget for 2013-14 is to meet the min- policy and research division. istry's commitment to provide responsive, innovative At the Ministry of Social Development and Social and integrated social services to British Columbians who Innovation we have more than 2,000 dedicated employ- need assistance. Th e number of people relying on assist- ees who work with individuals and families across British ance has remained relatively stable over the past year at Columbia, helping them achieve their full economic and around 180,000 individuals. social potential. Before we get into the budget, I want to Th e budget for the ministry operations for 2013-2014 thank all the ministry staff for their compassion and all is $2.49 billion, approximately $30 million more than the hard work they do on behalf of British Columbians. last fi scal. As part of this commitment, we intend to do I have had the opportunity, in the month-plus that everything possible to improve services to people receiv- I have been minister, to tour around the province, to ing assistance. a small degree, to meet staff who are delivering front- Policy reforms have been well underway since last fall line services. I must say that the eff ort, energy and pas- with the introduction of a suite of balanced changes. We sion with which they serve the individuals in British will continue to look at ways to make ministry policies Columbia is very, very enlightening. I was so pleased to and programs work for B.C.'s most vulnerable citizens. have an opportunity to meet several of them. I look for- Th is year's budget provides income assistance for in- ward, as I continue my time in this ministry, to meeting dividuals and families in need — $1.68 billion. Th e gov- more and more staff members providing services across ernment believes that people who can work want to be the 85 constituencies in British Columbia. self-suffi cient and contribute to their communities. In At the Ministry of Social Development and Social order to help people fi nd and keep a job, this ministry Innovation we help individuals and families in their is committed to investing $344 million in employment greatest time of need and challenge. We provide individ- services, including apprenticeship training, of which uals and families with income and disability assistance more than $280 million will be recovered from the fed- as well as the employment program of British Columbia eral government. to help people fi nd and keep a job. Also launched in April 2012, the employment program We are also responsible for driving social innovation of British Columbia provides the supports and services to in the province of British Columbia. By providing tem- get people, including those with specialized needs, back porary help to those who can work and longer-term aid into the workforce. to those who have a more diffi cult time working or who [1455] can't work, our government is ensuring that the needs of WorkBC Employment Services Centres have provided all British Columbians are being respected. employment supports and services to more than 94,000 Monday, July 8, 2013 British Columbia Debates 235
individuals since launching last year, and more than gratitude to ministry staff . I know how hard they work. 77,000 people, or about 82 percent, have received case Whether it's here in Victoria or right across the province, management services. Almost 50 percent of those who from the front line to the deputy minister, we're very for- have received and completed case management services tunate to have such a wonderful civil service here in B.C., through WorkBC Employment Services Centres have so a huge thank-you to all of the staff . found employment. Th e success rate speaks to the dedi- I also recognize that within the MLAs in the room cation, commitment and innovation of both the service this aft ernoon we have some new MLAs. Th ey may have contractors and the job seekers. heard of estimates debate as being characterized as per- I'm also encouraged by the growing possibilities of- haps not the most action-packed and thrilling activity fered through social innovation. In this province we one can participate in or listen to and watch, but I will know about innovation in creating partnerships. Th is commit to do my very best, as I'm sure the minister does, year we intend to raise awareness of social innovation's to challenge that characterization and make this, at the potential for making a difference by leveraging part- utmost, entertaining and informative. nerships among business, government and non-profi ts, Th e reason why I think it's important to do that with including the formation of community contribution all estimates and particularly with the Ministry of Social companies. Th is will help B.C. as a North American lead- Development is that we're dealing with some very im- er in social innovation. portant issues for some of the most vulnerable citizens Regarding Community Living British Columbia, our in our province — people living in poverty; people living government is fully committed to improving supports with disabilities, mental health issues. Th ey are oft en the for people with developmental disabilities and their fam- people who are struggling the most just to get by. We're ilies. Th e work to implement the recommendations from here today talking about how the government can best the deputy minister's review of CLBC is well underway, support them and what actual activities the government and this supports sustainable and long-term strategies to is undertaking to do that. strengthen supports for people with developmental dis- I'm very pleased that I have the opportunity to take abilities and the services they rely on. the lead for the opposition in asking these questions and CLBC's 2013-14 operating budget, which includes fi nding out for the public interest what it is that British contributions from the B.C. government, is $756.7 mil- Columbia is doing for some of our most vulnerable cit- lion. As well, in 2012-13 we committed $80 million over izens. I will start by asking some questions. three years to develop new approaches to employment First, before I actually ask a question, I'll let staff know and day programs, to improve transition planning and — I know that there are many ministerial staff who are to other key changes and innovations in support of the here; they're probably wondering when it is going to be deputy minister's recommendations. their turn, when they are up to help with answering the Th e integrated case management is a long-overdue computer system replacement that is needed to support questions — that I'm going to be starting with some just critical services that are vital to thousands of British general questions on the ministry and ministry admin- Columbians. ICM, as it also is known, has been used istration and so on, and then moving on to income as- by SDSI for more than two years, and it's working well. sistance. Th e expenditures for 2013-14 are budgeted at $38 mil- [1500] lion, and phase 3 was rolled out last March. ICM's cap- I just had a ministry briefi ng today, so I'm hoping that ital budget is $182 million. Th e project is on track, on all my questions around income assistance and various time and on budget for completion by the 2014 year-end. issues around that, for example…. I'm new, like the min- Th is budget focuses on helping British Columbians ister, so I'm still learning all the names of everything. build a better future for their families and communities Income assistance, PWD, the tribunals that review by providing responsive, innovative and integrated so- complaints and so on — my understanding is that they're cial services. all within that one branch. I'll do my best to try and keep I look forward to the questions from the members things within the branches that were outlined to me to- opposite. day, but if I don't do that, I apologize in advance. I'm not At this time I'd like to take a few minutes aside. Today trying to make your lives more diffi cult; that's for sure. is my daughter's birthday. She turns ten. Th ere's a slight My fi rst questions, then, will be about the ministry chance she might be inside watching TV today. I hope staffi ng levels. I'm wondering if the minister can please she's not, but if she is…. outline for House the breakdown of his offi ce budget. I want to wish you, Gracie, happy birthday. We're We'll start there, and then I'll come to the staffi ng levels. proud of you, and I'm looking forward to seeing you in four days. Hon. D. McRae: For the ministerial offi ce we have a budget of $560,000 for budget year 2013-2014. We have M. Mungall: First off , I'd like to echo the minister's fi ve staff working within the minister's offi ce. 236 British Columbia Debates Monday, July 8, 2013
M. Mungall: I'm wondering, of the fi ve staff , if all fi ve ive that can give British Columbians an idea of where the of these are full-time positions. government is headed with this white paper?
Hon. D. McRae: Th e answer is yes. Hon. D. McRae: Th e government doesn't actually have a pre-set outcome with this white paper. What we are do- M. Mungall: Has this changed from last year's budget? ing is designing it to go have consultation with those in- dividuals across the province of British Columbia who Hon. D. McRae: We have had a lift of $80,000. We are receiving services. have a chief-of-staff position this year, like all ministries In the consultation period, though we're still in the do. However, we have not fi lled yet, or she has not come preliminary stage, the vision is that we will actually go yet, the position of ministerial assistant. out and listen to people receiving services, stakeholder groups, both in person and on line. M. Mungall: How many of these staff are order-in- I know the member opposite…. Earlier in our fi rst council appointments? The minister has already an- term in government, we had the opportunity to sit on swered the other couple of questions I had. the Finance Committee, and we had an opportunity to take government outside of Victoria, outside of the Hon. D. McRae: All minister's staff , offi ce staff , are Lower Mainland, and visit smaller communities. While orders-in-council. I don't think it'll have the same scope as the Finance Committee, the reality is I thought that was a very use- M. Mungall: I want to go to the mandate letter. I'm ful set of circumstances. I think we received over 3,000 specifi cally looking at the white paper. Specifi cally, it was on-line submissions. We received video submissions, and the second commitment that the Premier asked of the we defi nitely received in-person submissions. minister: "Deliver on the platform commitment to create It was a great opportunity to hear about concerns and a white paper on how to improve the lives of those living successes across the province. So as we design the con- with disabilities in British Columbia." sultation process for the white paper, I look to use the I'm wondering if the minister can explain in detail, for Finance Committee as a bit of a model. the public — I know he mentioned it in his opening re- marks — the intention of the white paper. M. Mungall: If the Finance Committee is a bit of a [1505] model, I'm just wondering if the minister, then, intends to see a bipartisan approach to the consultation. Hon. D. McRae: Sure. In the mandate letter what the vision is, is that the province of British Columbia wants Hon. D. McRae: Th is isn't about politics. Th is is about to be the most progressive jurisdiction for the people and delivering services to the 700,000 British Columbians families living with disabilities in Canada. who receive some form of services from the government. With the white paper, we are committed to having a For that reason, it'll be more along the lines of having a consultation with this sector. We will begin the consulta- conversation with the individuals who receive the service, tion sometime in the fall. Aft er the consultation is com- not about a bipartisan act. plete — sometime within, probably, the next 12 months, Th is is about hearing individuals who receive services, I would think — we will fi nish it with a conference or a the stakeholder groups that represent some of these summit to be held as well. Th at'll probably happen some- groups and seeing how we can become literally the most time in 2014. progressive jurisdiction in Canada.
M. Mungall: My understanding is that there will be M. Mungall: First, I have to take issue with the min- consultation with the public. I'm just wondering if then ister's point that having a bipartisan approach to seeking the white paper will be draft ed and then there will be a this consultation, which does impact over 700,000 people summit for further response from this sector. in this province, is somehow political. I would argue that absolutely it's not. In fact, it's that Hon. D. McRae: Th e answer is yes. bipartisan approach that ensures it's not political but that it actually has multiple views represented and multiple M. Mungall: Great. Th ank you. Th e short answer is: views that are receiving the information, as well, inter- keep me on my toes. preting and analyzing that information and then putting Th at being the case, I know that the purpose, the min- something back out for the entire Legislative Assembly ister said, is the most progressive jurisdiction in Canada to digest. for people with disabilities. I'm wondering: what's the If the minister believes that the Finance Committee is standard? When you say "progressive," that's very sub- a good structure, as he alluded to in his previous answer, jective. Do we have something that's a bit more object- then perhaps a bipartisan approach is the way to go in Monday, July 8, 2013 British Columbia Debates 237
terms of developing the consultation process with the Point 6, the implementation of "the next phase of our general public. Perhaps he can comment on that. social assistance reform, as presented to Treasury Board." Th is ministry provides about $1.69 million to provide Hon. D. McRae: I guess there's a diff erence too. I want forms of social assistance across the province of British to be very clear here. Columbia. Th e Finance Committee is a legislative committee. It's Th e one thing I also do want to point out…. I'm very there because we have rules and laws in British Columbia hopeful about this. We are leaving 2008 and '09, where so that it has to exist, and it exists, by construction, with we had the greatest recession, not just in my lifetime…. members from both sides of the House. I am an aged 42 years old. Actually, I'm obviously much I just want to make sure I'm very clear to the members more aged than I thought. I'm 43, now that I think about opposite. I am looking at the consultation piece, and the it. Th is is the worst recession we've had in 70 years in consultation piece I want to use as our reference point the developed world. So yes, numbers did increase dur- is that we actually reach out to stakeholders across the ing that time. province of British Columbia and we take submissions However, I am very confi dent that not just British in a variety of manners. Columbia but North America is going to see continued [1510] economic growth, going forward, even though there is It is a white paper. It is not a formal report delivered to going to be, obviously, some other pressures from juris- the Legislature, like the Finance Committee delivers. Th e dictions — both Europe and the United States. white paper will be available to all British Columbians But the opportunities in this province — to have more to comment on. Th e white paper is — like all white pa- people engage in the workforce — is something I'm very pers are — designed to identify an issue and provide excited for and very excited to be in this ministry to help some solutions to government about how best to sup- lead, go forward, to make sure we train people to inte- port people in our eff orts to become the most progres- grate into the workforce with the necessary skills and op- sive jurisdiction for persons with disabilities in Canada. portunities to become employees within society, and to make sure they can raise their families and have a quality M. Mungall: Well, I guess time will tell to see if of life that all British Columbians deserve. people's views are accurately represented in that white [1515] paper. Moving on to the remainder of the mandate letter, I'm M. Mungall: Th e minister didn't give us the budget just wondering if the minister can outline the steps taken totals, so I'm just reminding him about that. He's correct to fulfi l the other areas of the mandate letter, having al- to say that CLBC will be…. We'll get more detail tomor- ready discussed the white paper. Can the minister out- row morning. For now, I'm wondering if we can focus a line the steps taken to fulfi l those, and what amount has little bit on No. 6, which is: "Implement the next phase been budgeted for each? of our social assistance reform, as presented to Treasury Board earlier this year." Hon. D. McRae: We'll see how we go here. If you want Can the minister discuss No. 6 in a little bit more detail, some more clarity, by all means, member opposite, please specifi cally: what is the social assistance reform? What don't hesitate to ask. is the next phase? What is the cost to the public taxpayer Th ere are six points within the mandate letter. Th e fi rst around this? one — like, I'm sure, is in almost every, if not all, mandate letters — is to balance my ministerial budget. We talked Hon. D. McRae: We have a budget for income assist- about that earlier within my opening remarks. We talked ance of about $1.69 billion. Th e changes will be working about the white paper. within that $1.69 billion. As the member opposite knows, for CLBC questions, If the member opposite will allow me, I'm just going we can go into greater detail. I believe it's tomorrow that to do some reading for you, and I'll give you a list as well. the member opposite and her colleagues wish to investi- "Th e changes announced in June as part of the families- gate that one. However, I do wish to let the member op- fi rst agenda" — June, I will assume, is last June — "are de- posite know that the government does contribute $728 signed to help vulnerable individuals and families attain million annually to assist CLBC in delivering services better fi nancial outcomes, assist people with disabilities across the province of British Columbia. to lead more independent lives and help people capable Number 4, where it talks about completing and mon- of work avoid the cycle of income assistance depend- itoring the CLBC reforms and report out to cabinet, I'm ence." Th ere are many major changes. I'll give you some sure the member opposite is familiar with the deputy examples here. minister review. Th ere are 12 key recommendations with- I have here seven. I'll tell you what. I'll give you the in that review, and they are underway and being imple- fi rst four. If you want me to keep on going with them, I mented as we speak. will keep on…. I'll give you all of them. How's that, then? 238 British Columbia Debates Monday, July 8, 2013
(1) A $200 monthly earnings exemption for all M. Mungall: Just looking at the planned spending. expected-to-work clients to give employable individuals Will the minister please identify all areas of the ministry a chance to build job skills and experience, take advan- budget where planned spending in the 2012-13 to 2014- tage of short-term or temporary work and better provide 15 service plan for the '13-14 fi scal year has been reduced for the families while receiving assistance. in the current service plan. If so, can the minister explain (2) An $800 monthly earnings exemption for individ- how these reductions were achieved? uals receiving disability assistance. [1525] (3) An exemption of income tax refunds so individuals and families on income and disability assistance will be Hon. D. McRae: If I get the question right, the ques- able to keep their full income tax refund without it af- tion was: where are we seeing changes in the fi scal plan? fecting their benefi ts. Have we reduced in areas? In the area of temporary as- (4) Restoring a number of medically necessary medical sistance, we have. Based on what we expected in terms equipment and supplies for clients on income and dis- of caseload and demand, temporary assistance has gone ability assistance, including ventilator supplies, bariatric down by $43 million. scooters, orthoses and apnea monitors. But I do want to point out to the member opposite (5) Access to dental care for children of families on that we do have a statutory obligation to provide these hardship assistance so parents can take their children in services, and we will relook at it if necessary. However, for regular dental checkups. we have also increased disability assistance this year over (6) An extension of income assistance to parents with- last by $32 million. out legal status in Canada who are fl eeing abuse and can- Just for clarity, temporary assistance has gone down by not leave the country with their children. $43 million, and that is based on our ministry's sort of ex- (7) Mandatory income tax fi ling rules for those on pectation of caseload demand. However, we do have that income and disability assistance, which will ensure in- statutory obligation to provide services, and we could re- dividuals and families are getting all the tax credits they look at it if necessary. However, we have increased ser- are entitled to. Appropriate exemptions will be in place vices — funding — for disability assistance by $32 million to protect anyone who may be exposed to risk, such as at the same time. fl eeing an abusive partner. Lastly, annualized earnings exemptions for individ- M. Mungall: Just looking at the anticipated core re- uals on disability assistance will provide the fl exibility view process and discretionary spending that is tied to to calculate earnings on an annual basis so that individ- that, has the ministry made any cuts to discretionary uals with disabilities can maximize their earnings dur- spending? ing times when they are feeling healthy and able to work. [1520] Hon. D. McRae: No.
M. Mungall: Th ank you to the minister. Rolling along, M. Mungall: Have any grants been cut in this min- these are mostly just very standard questions that the istry? opposition has of each ministry. My second question is, then, around the asset sales. Hon. D. McRae: No. Are there any asset sales from this ministry budget? Were there any ministry assets that were considered for Th e Chair: Short and sweet. sale and rejected? M. Mungall: So the government has identifi ed $30 Hon. D. McRae: Th e answer is no. million in cuts in this fi scal year under the core review process. I'm just wondering what cuts there will be in this M. Mungall: I just realized, since being the fi rst up ministry, if any, and what existing program funding the for estimates, that I should have taken full credit for all minister has identifi ed for the core review. of these questions I'm about to ask, rather than saying they're standard opposition questions. Hon. D. McRae: I have it on good authority that we'll Did this ministry receive Treasury Board approval for get our letter of instruction in September. I'm sure the access to the contingencies and new programs vote? If member opposite could also canvass the minister who is so, what ministry program did this fund? Did this min- responsible for the core review when his ministry is up istry access the contingencies budget in the previous fi s- for estimates as well. cal year? M. Mungall: I'm a bit concerned because, of course, Hon. D. McRae: No, we did not access the contin- here we are debating the budget, the entire budget of the gencies. province — this ministry's budget in particular — and Monday, July 8, 2013 British Columbia Debates 239 yet we have no indication of how the core review may be [D. Plecas in the chair.] impacting this, although we do know that there is a plan to see $30 million in cuts in this fi scal year. I think that Hon. D. McRae: I think I have an understanding of British Columbians are very concerned if those cuts are the question. Services that are provided by the Social going to impact some of the most vulnerable people in Development Ministry do not rely on gaming grants. our communities. However, non-profits delivering services for Social With that said, I would just like to see if the minister Development and Social Innovation or, potentially, for could just get on the record in terms of if he anticipates CLBC, could receive gaming grants but not to deliver the that he'll have to be making any cuts to service levels in services that we are mandated in this ministry to deliver. his ministry as a result of the core review. [1530] M. Mungall: Th ank you very much. It was the answer I was anticipating. Hon. D. McRae: I think that, again, those questions would be better directed to the Minister Responsible for Interjection. Core Review, but I think that there's always an opportun- ity in this ministry or any ministry to perhaps deliver ser- M. Mungall: Th ere you go. vices to individuals receiving some form of service from Moving on, then, to some of the transfers. What funds the government in a better manner. have been transferred from other ministries? I know that I'd like to highlight…. Just today we made an an- with the ICM…. Th ere's a partnership between this min- nouncement. Right now students who are actually in istry and MCFD for delivering ICM, so perhaps that's grade 12…. Th ey're under the age of 18, and they are where we see transfers from other ministries. transitioning to adulthood. One of the hurdles they had [1535] to jump and their families had to use and our staff ers had But regardless of that, if the minister can elaborate on what funds have been transferred from other ministries to actually evaluate was a 23-page form that persons with and what programs those transfers fund and if any…. developmental disabilities had to fi ll out. Actually, I was just about to ask a third question. However, because the school system does a very ad- mirable job, young people oft en have had an assessment Hon. D. McRae: We're not that good. Two is max. done by either a certifi ed school psychologist or a regis- tered psychologist, and we have agreed today to say that M. Mungall: Yeah, I'll leave you the two. if you have had this assessment done already, it meets the test and we do not need to have you fi ll out this 23-page Hon. D. McRae: The ICM is a five-year process. form once again to try to prove to the Ministry of Social Capital cost is $182 million. Whether it is provided for Development — as you leave one ministry and come to workers within the Social Development Ministry or the a new one — that you do qualify. Children and Families Ministry, it all falls under the So again, I'm very pleased to say that when we can cut Social Development Ministry. So we pay for it all. down things like paperwork, it is good for families. It In regards to some transfers you asked about, the is good for individuals receiving services. It is good for labour market agreement is $15.5 million that we receive workers in our ministry to make sure they are actually from the Jobs Ministry. I also want to point out that from doing what they should be doing — dealing with clients, the federal government we receive $300 million for the dealing with individuals who receive services, not work- labour market development agreement — $280 million ing on paperwork. And 23 pages of forms — I'm always for service and $20 million for administration. glad to see that be reduced. M. Mungall: Th e minister just mentioned the labour M. Mungall: Well, I think that the minister opposite market development agreement, the LMDA. I'm wonder- has set the stage of what all opposition members can an- ing if he can comment as well on the LMA, the labour ticipate in their budget estimates. Any time we ask a ques- market agreement. And then there's a third one, which is tion about core review, we'll be directed to go and speak the labour market agreement for people with disabilities. to the Minister Responsible for Core Review, so I'm sure He didn't comment on those federal transfers as well. he can anticipate a long lineup of opposition members [1540] asking their questions. My next question is in relation to gaming funds. If the Hon. D. McRae: In regards to the LMA, the labour minister can let British Columbians know what programs market agreement, that's a transfer of $15.5 million. Th e are funded by gaming funds in this ministry instead of LMAPD, basically, is $30 million federal dollars, which by operating funds…. If they're able to identify their rev- goes to the Ministry of Finance, not the Ministry of enue source for certain programs, that would be great. Social Development. 240 British Columbia Debates Monday, July 8, 2013
M. Mungall: My understanding, though, is that the Hon. D. McRae: Filling existing positions. labour market agreement for persons with disabilities, while it goes through the Ministry of Finance, does fund M. Mungall: Great, thank you very much for that programs that are delivered out of this ministry. Is that clarifi cation. correct? I'm just wondering how much was spent on contract- ors providing services to the ministry in the last fi scal Hon. D. McRae: Th e answer is: yes, sort of. It funds a year and if that's gone down or up from the previous fi s- range of programs across multiple ministries for people cal year. who are eligible. Hon. D. McRae: I hope the member opposite will be M. Mungall: Just moving on to fee increases, have okay…. We could spend a lot of time trying to get the cost, there been any fee increases or new fees imposed? For dollar amount, but perhaps, if it's okay, we could provide what, and what is the cost of those fees? that information as soon as possible. We'll provide it to you either in oral or written format. Hon. D. McRae: Th e answer is no, but this gives me In regards to service providers, I'll just tell the mem- an opportunity to highlight a program that I think this ber opposite that the Social Development and Social government is very proud of. I think we are the only Innovation Ministry has 73 separate service providers. jurisdiction in Canada that provides the bus pass pro- As another example, indirectly CLBC has 1,200-plus ser- gram, for 80,000 British Columbians. Th e fee has not vice providers delivering services across the province of gone up for many years. For $45 annually individuals can British Columbia. If the member opposite would like a ride TransLink or B.C. Transit in the province of British fi scal breakdown, we'd have to spend a fair bit of time to Columbia. I think it is a program that we are very proud accumulate all that information, whereas we could prob- ably provide it tomorrow or soon thereaft er, if the mem- of in this province, and I'm pleased to be part of a gov- ber is okay with that. ernment which delivers such a program. M. Mungall: Th ose general numbers are fi ne for me. M. Mungall: I'm just going to move on to some other I do have a list of third-party contractors with the min- questions, as you might have guessed from me standing istry, but I don't have a list of what each one's funding up at the mike. levels are. Because I was only given this, this morning, I'll just let the ministry know that I would like to get those Interjection. totals if it's possible. [1550] M. Mungall: Just trying to keep it light — light and It doesn't have to be right away — today or tomorrow. entertaining. Well, the minister is hoping that I ask ques- Just know that I would like to get those. We'll fi gure that tions about roller derby and his attendance at his local out, and we'll work that out over the next few weeks that bouts. I'm going to forgo those questions and ask the we're here in the Legislature. following. I'm just wondering, though. I know that not all of the Th ere has been a fi ring…. Pardon me. A hiring freeze. contracts are done through an RFP process — it's my I'm sure the staff would love it if it was a fi ring freeze. understanding — because some of them are ongoing. Or Th ere's been a hiring freeze throughout government. I'm perhaps I'm wrong on that. Maybe the minister can say: just wondering about the impact of that hiring freeze on of these contracts, how many are tendered? In what way this ministry. are they tendered, and are there any that are just direct- [1545] awarded? I know that the ministry has a lot of contracts. We Hon. D. McRae: For this ministry, like all ministries, don't have to go with the details on every single one but we want to make sure we use our resources prudently but maybe a ballpark fi gure around as to direct-awarded, as that we're getting great service for the individuals who well as tendered. Perhaps you can look at if there are any need services. I am pleased to say to the member op- major contracts that were recently tendered and what the posite that in the last six months we have hired approxi- process was for those. mately 200 — maybe over 200 — individuals, front-line I know that there are a lot of smaller contracts with workers to make sure that we can deliver services to those employment services and so on, but I'm thinking that British Columbians who defi nitely need service through if you had…. Well, I'm sure you guys have a defi nition this ministry. for what is considered a very large contract. If you could just get on the public record specifi cally what has been M. Mungall: Are those 200 new hires fi lling existing tendered, what has been direct-awarded and how much positions, or are they new positions? that's been. Monday, July 8, 2013 British Columbia Debates 241
Hon. D. McRae: As I stated earlier in some of my an- Hon. D. McRae: We do not hire, as the Ministry of swers, but for more clarity, 73 employment-program- Social Development and Social Innovation, direct com- of-B.C. contracts are let. It is an open, competitive bid munications consultants. GCPE does actually hire these process through B.C. Bid. Th ey were signed in the year kinds of individuals. If they were to, and we would bene- 2011 for implementation, I believe, in 2012 for fi ve years. fi t, there might be a chargeback to us. All contracts from this ministry from last year will be released as part of the public accounts process, and this M. Mungall: No consultants for communications, but ministry follows all procurement rules of government. I am wondering the advertising budget that this min- [1555] istry has. [1605] M. Mungall: Were there any contracts that were direct- awarded? Th at was the other part of my question — if there Hon. D. McRae: We did spend money. However, we're were any direct awards. still waiting for the answer. It will be coming very soon. If the member opposite would like, we can move onto Hon. D. McRae: As per the procurement rules in another question, and when I get the answer, I can just British Columbia, we can direct-award contracts under revisit this. We'll be able to do it, I think, while we're ac- $25,000. Th ere are some. We don't have a list of them all, tually sitting in this room, at this session. We're either but we will strive, if the member opposite would like, to willing to wait, or we can move onto another question if list all the contracts that have been direct-awarded in the the member opposite so desires. ministry. It would just take a bit of time, but if you do wish them, they can be provided. M. Mungall: We can come back to these questions. I have a few other questions around advertising. So maybe M. Mungall: Great. Th ank you to the minister for of- once you have more information, I can come back to fering to provide me with a list of all of the direct-award those either later today or tomorrow. I will ask questions, then, around…. contracts. I'll think about that one, because I'm sure, like him, I've got a lot of paperwork that I have to go through, [Interruption.] and it's summer. My next question, then, is about consultants. If the M. Mungall: Oh, it looks like the answer might have ministry has hired any consultants, what are the values just popped up on somebody's BlackBerry. of those contracts? Hon. D. McRae: I have no idea what you're talking Hon. D. McRae: As the member opposite, I'm sure, about. well knows, consultants are hired. Some are over $25,000, and we follow the procurement rules, obviously, for that. M. Mungall: I will move on…. Well, maybe I'll just sit Some are under $25,000, so they would fall under the down and let you check. list in terms of direct award. Th at, again, if you so desire, [1610] could be made available to you as well. Again, I think it's perhaps, if I may…. You know, since Hon. D. McRae: Under the LMDA — just two sets of the information can be given and if you wish it, it is there. numbers here — in 2012-2013, we spent $1.7 million. In If you were to wait for us to fi nd the answers, it might take 2013-14 we have spent $1.019 million. For the members us an extended period of time, and maybe our time here opposite, this is federal money which we are allowed to could be used for, like we're doing now, just having the spend, and the dollars are for a Work B.C. marketing questions back and forth. But by all means, if the mem- campaign, which is to ensure all clients access available ber opposite wishes the answers, we can provide them. services that they need. It's an awareness and support program. M. Mungall: I'm sure that the minister's staff are tak- ing notes on information to get at a later date. I know M. Mungall: I'm sorry. Did the minister say…? If he that I'll be doing that. I don't have as much staff , so I'll can just repeat the numbers. Th en, I'm just wondering, be doing that afterwards when I go through the esti- in those numbers…. mates, making notes of everything. Absolutely, we can Th e minister said that they were for the Work B.C. do it that way. marketing campaign. I'm wondering if there was any Just wondering, though, of the consultants that the other advertising done and specifi cally if it was what we minister is aware of, if any of them were specifi cally for would consider as non-essential advertising — it wasn't communications and public relations. necessarily advertising any particular service that the [1600] ministry delivers, but it was advertising government in 242 British Columbia Debates Monday, July 8, 2013
general — or if there was anything other than the Work I did see it in the service plan — to manage the ministry B.C. centres that were being advertised as well. under lean principles, or something like that, was what it was saying. I'm unfamiliar with that term. Hon. D. McRae: No, we don't do advertising as you [1620] were referencing. Th e numbers again. In 2012-2013 we spent $1.7 million. In 2013-14 fi scal we've spent $1.019 Hon. D. McRae: In 2012 the B.C. government adopted million — again, it's federal moneys — for the Work B.C. the lean process improvement as a way to enhance cus- marketing campaign and to ensure that clients access tomer service. We didn't invent lean; we actually bor- available services that they need. rowed the concept from Toyota. Th e idea with the lean process is that you actually talk to your front-line work- M. Mungall: I'm just wondering what the advertising ers, those who deliver services. In the case of Toyota, agency on record is for this ministry, then. you're obviously building vehicles. How can they better build these vehicles to deliver a better product? Hon. D. McRae: Those contracts are let through In our ministry, how can we make sure our front-line GCPE, or government communications, and they have workers are working with the individuals we serve in the names. We just have the expenses. a way that's going to be better for all involved? I must say that the Ministry of Social Development and Social M. Mungall: Great. Th ank you. If it all could be so easy. Innovation is a leader in government in implementing We just send you the bill, right? the lean philosophy and supporting projects that are fo- I just have a couple of questions about audits and if cused on improving services to clients. any audits have been done of any area of the ministry or To date the ministry has completed three major lean ministry programs or agencies. I know that there is the projects, and I must say thank you to the staff across CLBC. We can leave that out. Anything else? British Columbia who provided input. We are also work- [1615] ing on four more. The completed lean projects have increased service effi ciency and enhanced client experi- Hon. D. McRae: We have three audits that happen. ences with the ministry and are a staff -driven continuous First of all, we have the Auditor General, who's pres- improvement process. ently auditing the disability assistance program. It's in I must say as well that I had the opportunity to vis- the initial phases. I think they're just doing their scope of it East Van and meet some of the front-line workers at work right now, and they'll be going forward. Th ere is the some ministry offi ces when I was touring there. One of annual audit for public accounts, which is the same for the things I committed to doing as well, as minister — all ministries and conducted by the Auditor General. Th e not in the fi rst two weeks of my tenure but in a couple of LMDA, which the member opposite talked about earli- months when I have had a bit more time under my belt…. er, has an annual audit which is required by the federal- I'd like to go back and hear directly from them as front- provincial agreement we have. Th at audit is conducted line workers how I can as a minister, but how government by the B.C. Auditor General as well. as well can continue to provide better services for the cli- ents they serve. It's the right thing to do. M. Mungall: I'm just wondering if any of these audits You know, ministers like myself — we may be serving are available publicly. for one, two or three years. I've met people who are work- ing with clients and individuals in their 30th year when Hon. D. McRae: I'm sure the member opposite knows I was touring. I think their knowledge and expertise are the disability assistance program audit is just underway, absolutely invaluable, and I'm very pleased as a minister so that obviously is still in the initial phases. Last year's to constantly defer and listen to some of the individuals annual audit is available through public accounts, and on how they feel we can provide better service for indi- through the public accounts process this year's will be viduals receiving Social Development services. available at some time forward. Last year's LMDA agree- ment is also available through the Auditor General, and M. Mungall: Well, Toyota not only comes up with again, as we go forward, there will be a new one coming great vehicle ideas but apparently great organizational forward at the end of this fi scal as well. ideas as well. Other than the minister talking directly, himself, to front-line workers, I'm just wondering: what M. Mungall: Great. I just have one more question are some of the structures and the process, then, that about the administrative side of things. I was just reading front-line workers and staff throughout the ministry are in the service plan — and as well, it was mentioned earlier able to have input into and then see that input actually today in my briefi ng on paper — that the management take meaning and take form? services division also manages the ministry's lean co- ordination offi ce. Just wondering what that means exactly. Hon. D. McRae: What happens, obviously, is that the Monday, July 8, 2013 British Columbia Debates 243
individuals working in the ministry who spend a lot of [1635] time and are very knowledgeable in a number of pro- grams are being asked…. Th ey work with either their Hon. D. McRae: A couple of things, if I may. An ap- direct managers or perhaps it could be as high as an as- plicant could have a three- or fi ve-week work search in- sistant deputy minister or the deputy minister. Where volved. Th is is not for people who are PWD. Th is is for can we make service improvements? income assistance. To the members opposite, I'll give three examples. I Th e fi ve weeks was a reform or change that was brought mentioned we had done three lean projects that were in, in 2012, with the criteria being an individual who has quite successful. Th e fi rst one that we're quite proud of is never been on income assistance before. However, there the bus pass. Th e project reviewed the process for issuing are exceptions for the rule. new and renewed bus passes for eligible clients. Basically, You could go directly onto income assistance if you are what we did through this process…. Th e short form ver- fl eeing an abusive spouse or relative; if you are a sole ap- sion is we reduced the time to make eligibility decisions, plicant with a dependent child; if you have a physical or without impacting quality, by 44 percent. mental condition that in the ministry's opinion precludes [1625] an applicant from completing a search for employment; Cheque run was the second one. Th is project reviewed you cannot legally work in Canada is another one; if you the process the ministry uses to make payments to cli- have reached the age of 65; if you're applying for med- ents. One of the options there, one of the things we were ical services only; or you're in a hospital or continuing able to do…. We reduced mail costs by eliminating re- care facility. So there are some exemptions to the rules. dundant processes that did not provide value to clients Traditionally it was three weeks. We expanded it to or the ministry. fi ve weeks. Again, the fi ve weeks is only for people who Th irdly, telephony. Without actually looking to my have never been on income assistance before. People deputy minister or assistant deputy ministers, I think we with disabilities do not have the three- or fi ve-week work receive something like 1.5 million phone calls in a year. search criteria. Telephony is the project completed in partnership with the Ministry of Technology, Innovation and Citizens' M. Mungall: That has generated a few questions. Services. It reviewed the ministry's call centre model. Actually, back to my original question. Yes, the minister Basically, one of the things we did there…. We imple- did increase the work search period for new applicants mented a three-tiered service model for calls with high, to income assistance from three to fi ve weeks. My ques- low and medium complexity, which has increased the ef- tion is: why was that decision made? fi ciency and reduced wait times for clients wanting Social [1640] Development and Social Innovation services. My understanding is that before someone can even apply for PWD they have to apply for income assist- M. Mungall: Th ank you to the minister for that. ance fi rst. Th erefore, anybody applying for social assist- I'm going to move on to some detailed questions ance from the government would have to do a fi ve-week around income assistance, but before we go there and work search. while staff do the switch-up run for the minister, I'm wondering if we could take a fi ve-minute break. Hon. D. McRae: Th e member opposite is correct to some degree as well. Many people do apply to PWD Th e Chair: Th e committee will recess for fi ve minutes. through income assistance, but you do not have to go through income assistance before you get on PWD, and Th e committee recessed from 4:26 p.m. to 4:33 p.m. in fact, like I said, there are opportunities for exemptions. Just some other stats. About 600 people are on a fi ve- [M. Dalton in the chair.] week work search at any one point in time in the province, and the good news is by having that fi ve-week period, 75 M. Mungall: My fi rst question. We're going to be fo- percent of the individuals actually do fi nd employment cusing on income assistance for a while. and do not actually, in the end, need income assistance. My understanding is that when someone applies for So 25 percent of the 600 at any one time will end up go- income assistance, even if they have a disability, rarely ing into an income assistance program. But the idea, of are they ever allowed to go straight to the PWD disability, course, in this province is that if there is an opportun- we can call it, form of income assistance. First they are ity to go on to gainful employment, that is the most im- on social assistance, which more colloquially is referred portant thing for anybody of any circumstance in British to as welfare. But prior to even being able to apply, they Columbia, where they can become self-supporting and have to do a work search and so on. not need income assistance from the province. I'm just wondering why the ministry decided to in- crease the work search from three to fi ve weeks. M. Mungall: I'll ask the question again, and I'll keep 244 British Columbia Debates Monday, July 8, 2013
asking it until I get an answer. Why did the ministry de- why there are a greater number of people doing a success- cide to go from three to fi ve weeks for the work search ful work search or if there is, perhaps, some other reason period? — for example, increased job opportunities — or if there is something else that is contributing to this? Hon. D. McRae: Again, to member opposite, remem- [1650] ber that I stated earlier that the fi ve-week work search is for people who have never been on income assistance Hon. D. McRae: Th ere are three things that have oc- before. We're trying very hard to make sure that people curred. On April 1, 2012, we opened the new employ- don't get into the cycle of needing income assistance, and ment centres across the province of British Columbia. so since a fi ve-week work search results in 75 percent of Th ere are 73 of these. So there are supports there for people fi nding employment, it is better for the individual people. and the families to be working rather than on some form Policy reforms occurred in October of 2012, and yes, of income assistance. Our approach ensures that people we are reviewing these changes as we go forward. I guess who can support themselves move to employment while we're now nine months into, and we are not able to make also making sure that income assistance is available to a comprehensive decision as to whether our decisions are people who need it right away. perfect. We will continue to review, and the economy of [1645] British Columbia is improving, and there are more em- Th ere are opportunities as well, in circumstances, for ployment opportunities. In fact, I think half the people hardship, so it's not a some-or-nothing kind of oppor- who come to the employment offi ces receiving services tunity. We actually have programs as well that deal with end up getting employment, so there are some real op- people in specifi c circumstances when they need help portunities there. right away. Again, too, there is one other piece. Two more weeks of looking for employment is a better opportunity to fi nd M. Mungall: It's quarter to fi ve now. We can do this for employment, especially in a growing job market. another hour, where I ask…. Th ere was a decision that was made. Th e ministry used to have a three-week period M. Mungall: Th e reason I'm asking these questions is where people had to look for work before they could be because I want to determine if there is any analysis that eligible for income assistance. It is now fi ve weeks. Th at went into this decision or if it was just an arbitrary deci- is a two-week diff erence. Why? sion in the government's eff ort to save money. Th e reason why this matters is not just about people Hon. D. McRae: I'm not trying to be cute at all here. being able to fi nd employment. It's a fi ve-week period. The reality is that we want people in the province of Th at's more than the usual month. In that time frame British Columbia to work. So one of the things is that people are finding themselves high and dry when it we know if there is a fi ve-week work search, we have a comes to being able to pay their bills, their rent. Th ey're 75 percent chance of you, the individual, fi nding em- struggling. When people apply for income assistance, ployment. Th is means you do not need income assist- they're already hitting bottom, and the government is ance. Th is means that you are having gainful employment, making it even more diffi cult for them in this situation which is probably a way for you and your family to be by extending that period to fi ve weeks. Th ey just don't better off . Th e idea of going to fi ve weeks for those who know how they're going to pay their bills. have never been on is to keep them out of the income as- It's great that we're having these success rates with em- sistance cycle if we can possibly avoid it. Th e numbers are: ployment. I'm hoping that these job opportunities that 75 percent of people fi nd work. It's succeeding. people are accessing are meaningful, that they're able to pay good wages, living wages, so that people are not M. Mungall: Right. If it was to allow for more people living in poverty as a result. Indeed, the fastest-growing to fi nd work, if they had an extra two-week period as segment of people living in poverty are the working poor. opposed to three weeks, then what were the numbers When a decision like this is made — and it's from three of people fi nding work when it was a three-week work weeks to fi ve weeks — the public needs to know if there search? is a real analysis behind this. If there is, can the minister please share it with the public now? Hon. D. McRae: To the staff 's best recollection, with a three-week work search there is about a 50 percent fi nd- Hon. D. McRae: Th e member opposite uses the ter- ing of employment. So 75 percent, obviously, is substan- minology "high and dry." I don't think we do leave indi- tially an improvement upon this. viduals high and dry. Applicants who have an immediate need for food, shelter or urgent medical attention and M. Mungall: Has the ministry done any comprehen- who have not completed a work search will receive hard- sive research to determine if the fi ve weeks is the reason ship assistance while they complete the required work Monday, July 8, 2013 British Columbia Debates 245
search. we are serving both the individuals and the taxpayers of However, there are two points I wish to bring back to British Columbia to the best possible means, like we said the member opposite. One, we are nine months into a earlier, with a balanced budget. We want to make sure we program. We constantly review all programs within our pass and live within our fi scal means. Th is is an oppor- ministry to make sure we're delivering services in a man- tunity. We are getting 75 percent of people working. It is ner that is fair, equitable and consistent, so we will con- better than it was before, but the employment situation tinue to analyze this. As well, the fi ve-week work search in the province of British Columbia is better than it was program results in 75 percent of people fi nding employ- before as well. ment. So for the last nine months I think we do have a [1700] success there. Yes, it could always be better, and we will always look M. Mungall: I just want to make sure that we get the at our systems and see if they are a way to deliver ser- facts on the table here, and this is what the minister is vices. Earlier I talked about the lean process, where we saying. First, government, basically on a hunch, decided had three systems in the ministry where we had made to go from three to fi ve weeks with the idea that perhaps, signifi cant changes to deliver better front-line services. maybe, it would increase…. Th e amount of time people I talked about the four ongoing lean processes as well. had to do a work search would, therefore, increase the Why? Because we can always deliver services a little bit percentage of people who were fi nding work. better. But at the end of the day, I think it's very import- Well, they were then lucky that that was the case, be- ant that we have 75 percent of people in fi ve weeks on a cause there was no analysis that went into this, is what job search that fi nd employment. I'm hearing from the minister. Th ey have no analysis of why there has actually been an increase in people fi nd- M. Mungall: I stand corrected around the hardship ing work and if it is indeed their hunch that is the reason. money that government does provide people. However, And they are going to continue to monitor as we go along. one can argue that it's never suffi cient, and not everybody So what I'm hearing from the minister is that there gets it. Th at's another important point. has been no real analysis into doing this, into changing [1655] from three to fi ve weeks. Th at being the case, I don't Th e minister has yet to answer my question, though, on understand how this government is deciding upon pub- what analysis went into making this decision — if there lic policy that impacts people's lives, if you're only on a is a report, if there is any type of review that was done to hunch and luck. Does the minister think that's fair to determine moving it from three to fi ve weeks and if he the public? can make it available to the public. Hon. D. McRae: It was a policy decision made by gov- Hon. D. McRae: I'd like to say a couple of things ernment. We believed that the changing economic en- here. In 2008 and '09 we were in the height of the Great vironment in British Columbia, as we went forward from Recession. It was a very challenging time in the province the Great Recession of 2008-2009, got us in a situation of British Columbia, like it was across Canada, across where there was more employment available to citizens of North America and the developed world. Th ey were dif- British Columbia. And yes, we were correct. We realized ferent employment times. that if we had a chance to keep you from coming onto in- One of the things we are fi rm believers in is it is far come assistance, it would be better for you and better for better for individuals to actually have income from em- your family if you actually had a meaningful job. ployment, not through government assistance. Th ere's People — 75 percent of individuals — aft er fi ve weeks an opportunity. Th e work climate had changed from had found meaningful employment. Th at means we were 2008 and '09 to 2011 and '12. We, as a government, be- successful. But we do continue to monitor this policy lieve there is more opportunity for individuals to not go and see how it reacts accordingly in our job market. It is onto income assistance. We also are a fi rm believer, as a working today. If it changes, we will also be monitoring government, that fi ve weeks of work would actually pro- that and reacting to that accordingly. duce better results. Well, the result, I can say, is when we had a three-week M. Mungall: Since the jobs plan was announced, job search program, approximately 50 percent of individ- 31,000 less jobs in the private sector in this province. uals found gainful employment. When we went to a fi ve- Whether or not the labour market is what's having an week work search — again, we're talking new applicants impact on this number is hard to say. Th ere has been no who have never been on income assistance — we found analysis. Anyhow, needless to say, I'm a bit disappointed that 75 percent of individuals were now working. with how this decision was made. I also want to say to the member opposite: by all means, I would like to ask a question about how people are it is not something that we will never look at again. We determined employable when they are applying for in- continually look at this as a government to make sure come assistance. What is the determination that makes 246 British Columbia Debates Monday, July 8, 2013
somebody classifi ed as employable when they are apply- was that by 53 percent? — since 2002. When did the bulk ing for income assistance? of that decrease occur, and what does the minister ac- [1705] count for that decrease? What's the reason for it?
Hon. D. McRae: Th is government likes to think that Hon. D. McRae: Th e reason it has deceased is because everybody, potentially, is employable. However, being the economy has improved, and there are more jobs for realistic, we also recognize that there are exceptions to families in British Columbia today. the rule. For members opposite, I will read a list of cri- teria that may provide some exemption from this three- M. Mungall: Well, there's a message box answer if you to fi ve-week job search. ever heard one, hon. Chair. Again, single parents with children under the age of My next question is: how are income assistance rates three. A person with criteria as a person with persistent assessed and reviewed, and how oft en are they reviewed? multiple barriers; seniors 65 and older; a person residing [1715] with and caring for a spouse with a physical or mental condition that precludes the person's employment; single Hon. D. McRae: Income assistance was last reviewed parents caring for children or foster children, children in and increased in 2007. It was set at $610 monthly for a an out-of-care living arrangement or a child in the home single, employable individual. If the member opposite of a relative with physical or mental conditions that pre- asks, which I think she will, that then ranks us fourth out clude the parent's employment; single parents with chil- of the ten provinces of Canada. dren, foster children, children in an out-of-care living arrangement under the Child, Family and Community M. Mungall: Th ere has been no review, then, since Service Act or children in the home of a relative under 2007. the age of three; persons in special care, private hospitals or extended health care facilities; persons participating Hon. D. McRae: No, there hasn't. in treatment or rehab that interferes with employment; persons separated from an abusive spouse or relative M. Mungall: Does the minister anticipate that any re- within the previous six months where it interferes with view will be forthcoming either this year or in the next employment; and persons who do not meet citizenship two years that the service plan covers? requirements. So there are exemptions to the rules, and I think they Hon. D. McRae: As the member opposite saw today, are very fair. we had another vote on the balanced budget of 2013. We ran on a campaign of balancing the budget, so our M. Mungall: If I heard the minister correctly, this is children and our future generations are not indebted for just people who are exempt from the fi ve-week…. I'll let choices we make today and yesterday. I am excited that the minister get up and correct. the province of British Columbia will be in a better fi scal situation as we go forward. Hon. D. McRae: Th ese are people who are exempt Th ere are a lot of things that we can be discussing as we from employment plans. go forward and grow the economy of British Columbia. I'm not sure whether the members opposite agree, but M. Mungall: I am wondering, though, in terms of the opportunity with liquefi ed natural gas is a chance to those who are on income assistance, if the minister has not only pay down debt but to perhaps have opportun- this information. How many are people with children? ities for our children and grandchildren that have not [1710] been explored. So I think anything is in the realm of possibility as we Hon. D. McRae: I believe the question was: how many come out of a situation…. One of only two provinces in families are on income assistance? Presently, in March Canada that are balancing a budget; one of only two juris- of 2013, which was the last time I have stats, between dictions in North America with a triple-A credit rating two- and single-parent families we have 21,360 families — we campaigned on that, the electorate spoke, and that on income assistance. Th is is an improvement from the is why we are in government. year before, where we had 21,777, so a decrease of almost 2 percent. I'm also pleased to say since 2001 we've seen M. Mungall: I'll just restate my question and hope to the number of families on income assistance decline by get a yes or no answer. Does the government anticipate 53.6 percent. to review social assistance rates? Does the government anticipate that it will review social assistance rates either M. Mungall: I believe the minister said there has been this fi scal year or in the next two fi scal years that are dis- a decrease in families on income assistance — I'm sorry; cussed in the service plan? Yes or no. Monday, July 8, 2013 British Columbia Debates 247
Hon. D. McRae: I'm not going to commit to the mem- $30 per month for a single, employable client to well over ber opposite that we will be reviewing the rates in the $1,000 a month for a client with three or more children. next two years. However, I am very excited. Th e fact is that we are growing the economy of British Columbia. M. Mungall: I've pointed out that $375 is far below We are balancing a budget. what anybody can get a place for in this province, that Th ere are conversations that may exist in the coming the government has decided, regardless of that fact, that years. So for that reason, you know, anything is possible they have no intention to review the rates and that just at this stage, but more importantly, we want to make sure because everybody else is doing a poor job, well, B.C. is we balance the budget and live within our means. We'll going to do a poor job too. Th at's just not acceptable. leave it at that. My question is to the minister: does he think that $375, [1720] therefore, is acceptable?
M. Mungall: In 2007 people on income assistance Hon. D. McRae: Again, one of the things that the B.C. and on persons-with-disabilities assistance received a Liberal government and this party believe in is that the $50 lift in the shelter allowance from $325 a month to best thing we can provide for an individual is a job — a $375 a month. Th at was six years ago now, in 2007. Back job for them to go forward. It is very diffi cult to legislate then people complained, rightfully so, pointing out that an end to poverty. So $375, like I said earlier, is the third very few places in British Columbia have a rent of $375 highest in Canada. It is literally $40 behind Saskatchewan. a month. Th e reality is that we want to see if we can get people In fact, we have one of the highest housing costs. We off income assistance. It is designed to be a temporary have the highest average housing costs across the prov- measure. It's not meant to be a long-term solution. A ince in British Columbia, and Vancouver — I believe long-term solution is making sure you have the job skills next to Toronto — has the highest housing costs of any- to re-engage back into employment in the province of where in the country. Noting that being the case and that British Columbia. $375 was a hardship for people in 2007, we can only as- Again, one of the other pieces that I want to take on as sume, with the cost of infl ation and so on, that it's likely an initiative, as minister, is that if you're on income as- the case now. sistance, there's a 25 percent chance you do not fi le fed- In fact, I did a little research and came across the eral and provincial income tax. Th is means that you are Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation — the not receiving some of the supports you need in terms of CMHC — review of what the housing costs are in British tax credit and tax-return rebate that would assist you in Columbia. In April, 2012, which are the last numbers that your monthly living. they have, the lowest average rent for a bachelor was $436. One of the things I'd like to see as well is: can we get Th e highest average rent for a bachelor was $854. Looking a much higher percentage applying for their federal and at a two-bedroom, especially for somebody who has chil- provincial taxes? Not that they're going to pay taxes, ne- dren, the lowest average was $639, and the highest aver- cessarily, but the reality is they are going to be eligible age was $1,210 in Vancouver. for more supports. I think a fundamental diff erence be- Th at being the case…. Th ere is no plan to do a review tween the two parties in the last election was that we of social assistance rates, and possibly over the next three want to grow jobs and grow employment in the prov- years we'd be left with, still, $375 a month for the shelter ince of British Columbia, and the other side wants to try portion of social assistance. It seems to me that it would to legislate it. be — what is that now? — nine years that the shelter al- Again, I just don't see how the $20 a month that the lowance would be at $375 a month. How does the min- opposition put forward would have made any substantial ister justify not raising the rates or not even reviewing changes. Th e $20 a month is more money — it's $240 a the rates when we take into consideration that you can't year — but the reality is that it would only move us from get a single apartment anywhere in British Columbia for third to second in the shelter assistance rates. $375 a month? [1725] M. Mungall: Th at's quite the argument — to go to what the New Democrats proposed in the election and Hon. D. McRae: I would like to point out that we are say: "Well, hey, that wasn't that great. So what is your the third-highest maximum shelter rate provider in the complaint about?" country. We are at $375, as the member points out. Th e Well, the minister is the one in government here, right? highest in the country is Saskatchewan with $415. But Th e minister's decisions are what are being held account- we don't just do shelter subsidy. We also provide up to 70 able today in this estimates process. Th e minister has supplement programs. Furthermore, clients are also eli- to speak to what his government has chosen to do over gible to receive additional income from federal and prov- the last 12 years and what they plan to do over the next incial tax and child benefi t programs. Th is ranges from four years. 248 British Columbia Debates Monday, July 8, 2013
[1730] Where's that data coming from?
[G. Hogg in the chair.] A Voice: Stats Canada.
With that in mind, I'm guessing that the minister fi nds M. Mungall: It's Stats Canada data? Is the minister the $375 acceptable, fi nds the $610 a month acceptable, saying that this is coming from Stats Canada? Are these despite the fact that there's ample evidence to show that possible units…? Are they possibly substandard units? I there's nowhere in British Columbia that you can get a mean, we have a real issue in this province with people place for $375 a month. Th e lowest average rent for a being underhoused and in substandard housing. bachelor in this province is in Williams Lake at $436 a Th e reason Nelson was targeted for federal dollars to month — well above the $375 a month. With that said, I address homelessness was because we had such a high am wondering how the minister and how this ministry stock of substandard housing. On these low-cost rent- came to $375 a month and why they decide to still stay als, is there any assurance to the public that people are there if they're not doing any reviews at all. living in adequate housing, or are they living in substan- dard conditions just because the minister has decided Th e Chair: Minister. that $375 is an adequate level for a shelter allowance? [1735] Hon. D. McRae: Well, hello, Chair. Welcome to the chair, Chair. Hon. D. McRae: I'm sure that the member opposite is According to the best available data from StatsCan on aware, but the regulation of housing, including residen- the actual rent plus utility costs paid by individuals with tial tenancy, is with the Minister Responsible for Housing. families in British Columbia, our shelter allowances are Th at same minister is also responsible for the administra- suffi cient to rent about 20 percent of available rental units tion of the Residential Tenancy Act. in Vancouver and over 25 percent of units in smaller However, I did mention earlier that we also provide 70 towns and cities in British Columbia. diff erent support programs for people either on PWD or We know that fi nding good, adequate accommodation income assistance. Amongst those programs there are on our shelter rates is challenging for many of our clients just three I'd like to highlight to the members opposite. in Vancouver and Victoria. However, we also know the Th e fi rst one is the Moving, Transportation and Living vast majority of our clients are adequately housed and Costs, which provides a monetary supplement to cover fi nd adequate accommodation with the current rates. necessary moving, transportation and living expenses We also do know that the small percentage of people in certain situations when there are no other resources who do not have accommodation are, to the best of our available. Reasons for issuing the supplement include a ability, closely monitored by Social Development staff , confi rmed job or imminent threats to physical safety, in- and assistance is provided as necessary. I'm sure there is a cluding, as well, fl eeing an abusive relationship. certain individual out there who has slipped through the We also provide security deposits — a repayable mon- cracks. However, if they come forward and need some etary supplement to assist in securing rental accom- form of assistance to fi nd housing, ministry staff is more modation. Clients are limited to a maximum of two than willing to work with that individual. outstanding security deposits unless, of course, they are Th ere's also a wide variety of housing options avail- fl eeing an abusive relationship; or they are required to able to ministry clients within the maximum shelter rate move because their rental premises are being sold, de- provided by the ministry — for example, subsidized molished or condemned; or they are homeless or at im- housing, shared accommodation, secondary suites and minent risk of homelessness. sublet condos. Th is non-conventional stock of housing We also have a utility security deposit, which is a re- comprises about 50 percent of the rental stock in Victoria payable monetary supplement to assist with the cost and Vancouver. of securing service for electricity or natural gas. Th e amount paid is the minimum amount necessary to ob- Th e Chair: Member. tain the service.
M. Mungall: Th ank you very much, hon. Chair. Nice M. Mungall: It looks like we're just going to have to to see you there. agree to disagree here. I think that the majority of people who are on income assistance, as well as members of the A Voice: You're doing a great job too. public, recognize that $375 is just not enough. It just isn't. I mean, I don't know how you can get around that, but Th e Chair: Th ank you. obviously this government is well determined to do that. My next question. I was reading the service plan. Some M. Mungall: Fantastic. of the things I thought…. A lot of things were interest- Monday, July 8, 2013 British Columbia Debates 249
ing in the service plan. A couple of the things I want to cases per staff person, right? I mean, if something only highlight here. takes a couple of minutes, that's not an active case, right? [1740] I'm thinking of something that takes, you know, weeks. It noted that people staying on income assistance for a Are there no targets that the ministry has? Th ere's no longer period is up and that unemployment is 75 percent standard that the ministry has so that we know when higher than pre-recession levels. Th en take that into con- somebody may be overworked? Or perhaps somebody sideration with Statistics Canada job creation stats show- is not…. Nobody is underworked ever, right? Th at's why ing that we're actually down in B.C. in private sector jobs I don't even want to go to say that. So that we know that by about 31,000 since the B.C. jobs plan was announced. people aren't overworked and so that we have a better I'm just wondering if the minister sees a correlation understanding of how we are serving clients to the best here, and if so, if he's looking at reviewing the income of our ability. assistance time limits, allowing people to stay on income [1750] assistance longer than current. Hon. D. McRae: It's really hard, I think, in this min- Hon. D. McRae: Maybe the member opposite is not istry to actually create averages, caseloads in a day. Some aware of this, but if she is, my apologies. Time limits for issues, like a bus pass application or a bus pass question, individuals on income assistance were removed, actual- literally could be minutes. Th at's why I talked earlier, ly, in October of 2012 as part of the reform package we to the member opposite, about the telephony situation, brought in. However, the individual does have to have where we triage issues that come forward — so high, an employment plan. Also, from that, there is still a cer- medium and low range, in terms of how long it takes to tain amount of time that we do track people that are on deal with individuals. income assistance. Some issues — like I say, bus passes — may be resolved in minutes, hopefully. Other issues — for example, say a M. Mungall: No, I did not know that. Th ank you to the young person who is 17 turning 18 and transitioning into minister for answering that question. I'm sure there are PWD from the school system — could take many, maybe many people who are very pleased to see that. even days. Why? Because it takes that long, sometimes, My next question is: what is the average income as- working with that individual and families to make sure sistance caseload per staff person? Does this meet min- they receive the supports. istry targets? But for the member opposite, just to give her, sort [1745] of, some time frames we work with. For example, we try within this ministry to make decisions on eligibility Hon. D. McRae: Presently there are 136,000 active in- for income assistance within fi ve business days. Persons come assistance cases in the province of British Columbia. with disabilities designation determination — we try to Th is has been declining since 2011. We have 1,500 staff do that within 90 days; eligibility for persons with persis- in the regional services division. We use a caseless mod- tent multiple barriers, known as PPMB, within ten busi- el, where staff are not assigned specifi c fi les to work on. ness days; reconsideration, within ten business days of receiving a request for consideration; and family main- M. Mungall: Maybe I'll rephrase and see if this gener- tenance referrals are reviewed and opened within ten ates an available answer from the ministry. Maybe they business days. just don't have the stat. I'm just wondering: on average, Again, we off er a very wide range of services, and we on any given day, how many cases is a staff person, a try our very best to make sure we deal with people in a front-line staff person, in the ministry working on? timely and respectful manner.
Hon. D. McRae: You know, we're dealing with a wide M. Mungall: I guess what I've been trying to get at is range of individuals needing a wide range of services and to assess the workload of the front-line staff . Historically, supports. Some interactions could be literally, like, min- we would think about caseload — right? — and caseload utes. Some might take days for a staff member to provide per staff person. So the minister has pointed out that that the services that are necessary. It's hard to give a specifi c has changed and has moved more to what's called the answer in this particular case. It's how much time you client-centred model. need to spend with that particular client to get the task Under this model, then, how is it assessed? How is at hand completed. a staff person's workload assessed? Th at's just, actually, what I'm trying to get at. M. Mungall: Th en my understanding is that the min- [1755] istry doesn't have a target rate where they're saying, "Okay, we want a maximum" — just hypothetically here Hon. D. McRae: Th e cases model is designed to share — "or an average of ten cases per staff person" — active the workload across the workforce and avoid staff burn- 250 British Columbia Debates Monday, July 8, 2013
out from a dedicated caseload. We also have, in the past, of this initiative. conducted employee engagement surveys, where staff Just for more detail, the channel strategy stakeholder self-assesses workload to make sure that they are work- engagement plan was developed to obtain information ing within their means. and feedback to inform the channel strategy, identify ser- As well, I mentioned earlier to the member opposite vice delivery effi ciencies that will enhance client satisfac- that we have embraced the lean process, where we have tion — that's important — and determine and monitor actually done better to make sure our front-line services client satisfaction on an ongoing basis. are being better delivered for both the individuals receiv- Consultation with stakeholders has begun. Focus ing the services and our staff who deliver those services group sessions were held with advocacy organizations — three underway which are rather successful, and we from January through March of this year and with clients have four more which are underway. from February through March of this year as well. Th ere Again, one of the things I'm really excited to see and was an optional feedback survey that was added to the be part of is that we do have a very dedicated ministry self-serve assessment — an application, and clients will staff who are out there. Th ey are delivering the services. also be involved in the usability testing for the on-line Th ey can make great recommendations on how we can portal. Lastly, a plan is under development to monitor better deliver these services. For that, I'm impressed that client satisfaction with all the channels. this ministry has taken a government leadership role in the lean process. M. Mungall: Just on the last point that the minister said around a plan underway to monitor client satisfac- M. Mungall: I appreciate that the minister brought up tion. Recently in the news media…. We get these phone staff burnout. We all know that that has been a huge issue calls, I'm sure, in everybody's constituency offi ce. We all in the social service sector across the province, whether get these phone calls when people have had a really nega- it's government or non-profi t. I appreciate that the gov- tive experience with social assistance, whether it was the ernment has recognized that and is doing its best to ad- application process or a reconsideration or so on — a dress it. very negative experience. Th ey felt like they weren't treat- My next question is: what's the ministry's process for ed like a human being. And there are always two sides reviewing its delivery of service to income assistance to every coin, right? Sometimes the staff people will feel clients, and are clients included in the service delivery like they weren't treated like human beings by that par- reviews? ticular individual as well. I just want to make sure that we're always reviewing Hon. D. McRae: Th e Ministry of Social Development that so that we're treating people with dignity. I'm sure and Social Innovation is committed to providing quality the ministry and the minister have every intention to do service delivery and is continually working to improve that and — it being a large ministry with thousands of the way our clients receive services. staff — are fi nding ways to monitor that. So I'm happy Clients can access service a number of ways, includ- to hear about that last point, that a monitoring process ing telephone, which I mentioned to the member op- is being put in place. posite. Th e Ministry of Social Development and Social With that said, going back to the service plan and look- Innovation receives about 1.5 million phone calls a year. ing at it, one of the things that jumped out at me was the We have an on-line application tool, which means in- percent of reconsideration decisions that are made with- dividuals do not actually have to come down to an offi ce. in the time frames. Th e baseline was 82 percent in 2001- We get about 75,000 applications a year this way. 2002. In last year's service plan, the 2011-12 service plan, Obviously, face to face, for those who wish it and desire the number forecasted for that year — they had not yet it, is still available; and mail and fax, as well; and, to a lim- had the data — was 65 percent, then jumping to 100 per- ited degree, e-mail. If the member opposite is wondering cent the following years. why I say limited degree e-mail, there are some privacy Looking at this year's service plan, what we see is 90 concerns that need to be worked out to make sure that percent forecasted for this year, which is a 10 percent re- individuals are treated fairly and with security, as needed. duction in forecasting from last year. Nonetheless, that's [1800] not really my question. My question was: what caused Th e ministry has also launched what we call the chan- that jump from 65 percent being the forecast all the nel strategy, which guides us towards a provincially in- way to 90 percent or 100 percent? Th at's no incremental tegrated, effi cient, standardized and technology-enabled improvement. You're looking to make a big improvement. service delivery that supports a positive client outcome. I'm wondering what's causing that. Stakeholder engagement is a cornerstone of the chan- [1805] nel strategy, and the ministry has actively solicited and incorporated feedback from staff , advocacy groups and Hon. D. McRae: We're talking about reconsiderations clients through the planning and implementation stage here. Our goal, obviously, is to have reconsiderations Monday, July 8, 2013 British Columbia Debates 251
done within ten business days. Since January of 2013 I'm the gap between the cost of housing and the amount people with pleased to say that we were able to actually reconsider disabilities can aff ord." successfully 97 percent of the cases that come before us. Th e question is: will the minister commit to working Why were we able to do this? Well, we consolidated towards implementing these recommendations? two branches of the ministry to increase the number of staff members doing reconsideration. We also assigned Hon. D. McRae: Th ank you very much to the member a senior manager to oversee the branch. As well, we re- opposite for the question. We have worked with that or- vamped procedures and training for staff and have seen ganization in the past and continue to work with them. some substantial improvements. We thank them for their input. I would also like to point out to the member opposite There are challenges in government. Like yourself, that, while we haven't reached 100 percent, one of the member opposite…. We were both elected in 2009, and major issues in not making the ten-day period is the indi- there are challenges. Th ere is a limited amount of dollars vidual themselves, who, in seeking reconsideration, will the government has to spend. oft en need to provide us with some form of data, and so I know that when I was Minister of Agriculture, there that will add some extra time to it. But I think that's to the were demands on the resources within that ministry. For benefi t of the client and the reconsideration process in example, the tree fruit growers were wanting a replant general. I think it works for both parties in that manner. program. It had value and was important, by all means, and we struggled to fi nd the dollars. But you know what? M. Mungall: Excellent. I am noting the time and that We do our best. generally we fi nish estimates at quarter past the hour. It When I was Minister of Education, last spring we being ten past, I'll just ask a couple more questions and brought forward a seismic mitigation program — 45 then hold the rest for tomorrow. schools to be seismically upgraded across the province Th ese questions…. I just want to let the minister know of British Columbia at a cost of about, from my mem- that I've asked some community groups around the ory, $580 million. province to share with me some of the questions that Th ere are always demands on government resources, they might have for the minister, and that's exactly what and there always will be demands on the government these are. resources. I wanted to provide that opportunity to some of the Th e coalition's ask — and by all means, I respect their community groups who have been working on these right to ask — comes at a cost of $300 million a year if issues for several decades. we were to go forward. We try to provide a suite of ser- Th is comes from the B.C. Coalition of People with vices for residents from all regions of British Columbia Disabilities. Th e fi rst question that they have for the min- and from all walks of life. ister…. One could argue that we have already canvassed [1815] some of this, but I think it's important that their question We were able to make some policy enhancements in does get on the record. October 2012, ones I would like to highlight again. We "People with disabilities who receive the persons-with-disabilities increased earning exemptions for persons with disabil- benefi t and the persons with persistent and multiple barriers to ities to $800 for families where one adult has disabilities employment benefi t are living in abject poverty. Since 2001 PWD has increased by $120, while the cost of basic essentials such as and $1,600 for families where two adults have disabilities. food, clothing, transportation, health, personal care and shelter has I know from my experience, both in the campaign increased by more than 17 percent. that we just went through but also before and aft er, that "During this period the cost of food alone increased by nearly individuals have come up to me, specifi cally about this 25 percent. Th e B.C. Coalition of People with Disabilities, as part of the Disability Without Poverty network, produced a paper ministry initiative, and said: "Th ank you very much. It's in 2012 calling for an increase to B.C.'s disability benefi t rate, made a big diff erence." Is it a solution that will solve all which is currently $906 a month. Entitled Overdue: Th e Case for problems? No, but it was a change that the individuals Increasing the Persons with Disabilities Benefi t in B.C., the paper was written with Inclusion B.C., formerly the B.C. Association for were asking for. Th ey like it, and there is a way to really Community Living; Canadian Mental Health Association, B.C. make a diff erence. division; Community Legal Assistance Society; and the Social Th ere is also a $200 monthly earning exemption that Planning and Research Council of B.C. was introduced for employable clients with families and "Overdue shows how the PWD rate is inadequate and results young children. Tax returns and family bonus retro- in PWD recipients living in poverty. We are calling for a $300 a month increase to PWD for a total of $1,200 a month; secondly, active payments were made exempt. Asset levels were PWD to be index-linked to help ensure it keeps pace with the increased, and trust disbursement levels were increased rising cost of living so that infl ation does not continually erode to PWD clients. the ability of PWD recipients to aff ord shelter, food, clothing and other basic needs. As well, like I mentioned earlier, we provide a range of [1810] 70 diff erent support supplements for individuals within "Th irdly is the introduction of a shelter assistance program simi- this ministry — everything from co-op share purchasing, lar to SAFER, which is Shelter Aid for Elderly Renters, to help close the Christmas supplement, family bonus top-up, funeral 252 British Columbia Debates Monday, July 8, 2013
supplement, school startup supplement, special transpor- ing opportunities for young people, for older people in tation subsidy and, like I mentioned earlier, the bus pass, the province to ensure they have a quality of life that al- and the identifi cation supplement. We provide a large lows them to live with dignity and fairness in all regions range of services for individuals across the province to of the province. make sure that they are supported by this government. As a minister who provides employment services and Yes, I understand the organization would like more. I provides services for persons with disabilities, I'm look- know our PWD rates are competitive across the coun- ing forward to seeing the province go in a position that try. However, compared to Alberta, which has recently provides better supports. raised their rates, there are some comparisons oft en be- As well, with the white paper we will have those con- ing made there. sultation pieces in the fall going forward to fi gure out Th e best thing we can do, as well, is again, whether you how we can become the most progressive jurisdiction are a person with disabilities or you're on income assist- for PWD individuals in Canada. I think it is the right ance…. If you're able to work, can we create a climate in thing to do. this province where we make you more self-suffi cient, I'm looking very forward to individuals coming for- whether it is through the earning exemption piece or ward in the consultation piece, sharing their thoughts whether it is through actual full-time employment? Th ere and ideas with government. I'm sure the resulting white are some opportunities there. I'm looking forward in the paper that comes out of it will be much discussed both next four years…. by government and individuals across the province go- As a new MLA in the last four years, when we came ing forward. through literally the worst recession in 70 years, it was Hon. Chair, I move that the committee rise, report challenging. It was challenging for families. It was chal- progress and ask leave to sit again. lenging for individuals. It was challenging for govern- ments. Motion approved. We are bringing forward a balanced budget. We are hoping to grow the economy as we go forward, provid- Th e committee rose at 6:18 p.m. Hansard Reporting Services
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