FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT.

Matthew Januszek 0:10 Welcome to this week's escape your limits podcast and this week's guest is a 26 year veteran in the Asia health and fitness industry. Now the CEO of evolution wellness, created from a $500 million merger of the fitness first Asia and brands. Evolution wellness is a leading player in the category with a six brand portfolio across 175 sites in six countries with 7000 employees and over 300 million in revenue. Please enjoy this week's escape your limits podcast with Mr. Simon Flint. Simon, thank you for joining us today on the escape your limits podcast and where in the world are you today Simon?

Simon Flint 0:58 I'm in , , which Which is my home?

Matthew Januszek 1:02 How long have you been out in Kuala Lumpur?

Simon Flint 1:05 Ah, you know, every time someone asked me that question I say it's it's a, it's about 10 years, but I've been saying that for a number of years. So it's probably more like 13 I think now, don't keep a track but I've been in Southeast Asia since 1994. And I was very fortunate enough to spend some time in my first job on the beautiful island of Phuket in and then move to Bangkok for some time. And then came to Kuala lumper. When we started to get a little bit bigger, which is where we we have a support office, which supports our regional operations.

Matthew Januszek 1:40 Right. And so what as a as an expert, then I guess, you know, doing business in Asia is pretty interesting and exciting. But what what's it like when you when you're going through what we are at the moment, you know, how do things change? Is it sort of better, easier, worse, what's it like

Simon Flint 2:06 So, you know, I when I, you know, of course, I am still in touch with the UK, which is where I'm from. So I watch, I watch what happens on the news. And I have friends and contacts in the industry. So I can, you know, compare and contrast. And we have six markets over here. So some of our markets are similar to the UK, others are a little bit different. So it's really a mixed bag at the moment. So for evolution, wellness, we have we have operations in six countries. We have , , Malaysia, , and Thailand. And as we speak at the moment, we are we're in mid August as we as we speak now, we are open in sort of three and a half markets, if you like and the half is Indonesia, where Jakarta still got some serious restrictions. So and we have been open and somewhat closed again, that would be Come Case in point. In fact, a couple of weeks ago, we were due to open on a Monday in the Philippines. And in the middle of the night, we had notification that the decision was to be reversed from the government level, from the ministerial level, and it was it was all off again. So it's been a very touching go a few months, a few weeks. And, you know, I can look at it from two angles when I have, you know, to be very honest, I vacillate from optimism and pessimism in a very short space of time. And that depends on the news we get, right? You know, to be optimistic, I can say that, you know, we fundamentally underneath all of this, our industry has to be more important than it ever has been. And I get the sense from some some early evidence that there's some pent up demand from people who are saying, I've dodged a bullet this time around. I don't want to be in a comorbidity category. I don't want to be You know, not not being as healthy as I perhaps should be if this kind of stuff is going to repeat itself, and see that in in, you know, a good performance in Thailand, for example, where we were, we're open again. And there's a, there's a clear correlation between what's happening in the market with respect to the pandemic, and what's happening in, in our business performance wise. So we were open in, in all of our clubs, we have 34 clubs over there. And the check in rates are commensurate with precoated. More or less, even though we have restrictions in place. We see people spread out coming at different times of the day. We're fortunate that we've got reasonably big footprint clubs in Thailand. So we've got the space to accommodate people in a, you know, personal kind of bubble with the social distancing, that's that's required. We are a little bit under capacity in the group concept in the group format. But again, we're layering on it additional classes, were able to provide a pretty good service. So we feel we feel pretty optimistic that when the environment allows itself to, for us to reopen and be anything like normal, the demand is clearly there. Despite the you know, the the economic impact that's happened so far. It's yet to be seen what's going to happen in the other markets. It's a very mixed bag. If I can give you some some feedback from the Malaysian market, perhaps we see a higher number of people who are remaining on freeze. So circa 12% of our membership remains on on freeze it started at 30%, I should say. So it's kind of winding down. But you get segments of the population who are still in the I'm going to wait and see category or perhaps the amount of elderly family members at home or kids at home. And there's this this little fear factor that's still there, that they may not wish to go back and potentially become ill pass it on to other members in the family. So it's a really mixed bag and our focus has been to, to have our staff understand and play a part in feeling super confident about the measures we're taking. We want our clubs to be as clean and as safe as as anywhere people can possibly be. And then that confidence projected on the members who come and try it out. You know, they then convey that to their friends and other members. And that sort of perpetuates the the increase in check ins and the reduction of the free statistics. So, you know, there's, there are good science, but at the same time, you know, when we open in a country and then we were instructed to close again very quickly, that's when I put a pessimistic hat on for a moment. And, you know, I think generally in life, I'm an optimist, but but I will be, I will be kidding if but if I said there are some sort of dark moments when you think you know, when is this going to end because when we're when we're close with zero revenue, and that that's not a business.

Matthew Januszek 6:59 You I'm sure you keep up to date with the situation in in the UK. How do you how do you see some of the government's in, you know, being spread across six different countries? See, do you see a lot of similarities between the way that the government's are working with businesses like, like in the fitness sector? Or are you seeing some that are doing things differently in any way in general terms? And there's some sort of specific details, but generally, are they sort of approaching things in a similar way? Would you say?

Simon Flint 7:30 Well, the government's response tends to be very much a product of their financial capability and their organizational capability to respond. So if I were to take the Hong Kong and Singapore governments, for example, they appear to be very well organized very well. very communicative and erring on the side of caution, perhaps more than more than others, very involved in protocols. standard operating procedures and you know, broadly speaking on the front foot with a we think this is what we should do. Other countries have been a little bit more, there is no SRP, we don't have a position. So we have been more, let's say proactive and and thankfully we've had access at the ministerial level, sometimes independently as one of our brands or in coalition with, with industry, peers, and we've managed to to get audience time with them. In fact, Malaysia team literally visited one of the ministries with with many present there are several who were involved in the decisions to open and to as to what SRP will be in place. And thankfully, a lot of hard work done by the Malaysia team meant that the SOPs were created and then adopted and sort of signed off endorsed by the government and then implemented as, as the To practice for the industry. So we thankfully we've had that level of access to be able to, to help move things along. I dare say that we weren't, we may not be open yet. So if we weren't able to have that, then of course, we have inspections, the government comes and, you know, I must say, I let me use Malaysia as an example. And I think the, you look at the case numbers, and at the moment, we look at our phone every day and see what's happening. And you might get single digits or low double digits. And when it gets up to maybe, you know, 20 cases a day, we're saying, whoo, you know, we're kind of gritting our teeth a little bit. You contrast that to somewhere in Europe, and it's, it's an entirely different scenario. So I think the expectations and the standards are even higher over here. So you know, credit to to what, what many of the governments have managed to achieve. Others. I have to say, you know, it's been far less organized and I think the key here is communication, where communication is clear where communication is proactive, then at least you know where you stand and you can do something. But when there's silence, or there's one message from one ministerial body and the absolute opposite message from another in the same government, then it's rather difficult to know where you stand. And that's, that's when it becomes, you know, pretty tiring for the teams to figure out where the where the path is going. Hmm,

Matthew Januszek 10:29 I know one of the things we've seen in the US with certain states opening closing is that, like the local authorities, for example, looking at audience as being the same as that you've got the good ones that are really managing things well and putting all the correct procedures in place and then other ones that are kind of just, you know, probably being a little bit more relaxed. Are you saying out there that I'm from what I know from you guys, you're your sound, you're one of the ones doing things right. But are you are you saying the government's sort of looking at the gym industry all together and saying, Well, you know, basically on the ones probably that may not be quite as good as you are, or you've been able to sort of position yourself as, you know, sort of separate from, from the rest of the bunch as an example.

Simon Flint 11:17 We have seen elements of that very point where I will haven't mentioned the the country or the government in question there. But we had, we had one situation where we were kind of, let's say, looked upon not very favorably and and spoken about in words that were, you know, we we could we could have easily taken offense, let's say but what we did and the team did in the Philippines was invite the Department of Trade and Industry actually as an example there. We invited the dti into to come and have a look at a working scenario. So an example of what it would look like with people on treadmills they're wearing a mask that two meters apart, you know that In this cycling class, the bikes have been reduced in number. And so we had a very good interaction as one of the more positive cases in the Philippines there where they came and inspected and said, Yes, we like this, let's adopt this, let's do that. Let's do the other. And then there was some areas where they said, look, I think this is the right way to do it. And you know, showing a good example, but at the moment, we prefer that you don't open group exercise, for example, which, so as we sit here today, I'm hearing this is an example of how things chop and change. I'm now hearing that the Philippines will come on a lockdown tomorrow. And we may be able to open on Thursday, but without group exercise. So again, when you think that, you know, broadly speaking, those those big box businesses that have a good component of group exercise, there's normally a majority of members who partake regularly as you know, group exercises their thing. Therefore, if you don't have that, you're clearly a very compromised business in terms of your ability to generate revenue unless every member who was doing group exercise will switch to a more floor based bit of cardio, a bit of weight, strength training, that kind of thing. And in which case, if they do, you then have some space dynamics that you have to figure out because of course, you've you've got an increased density when you have to have reduced numbers. So hopefully, people spreading out the time of the day that they come is going to be particularly important. And to facilitate that we do some rapid development work with our app a lot faster than we planned. We planned a sort of gentle rollout of our new app, actually, from q1 across into into q2 around the region. But because of the situation we had to go hard and fast and deploy across all markets to enable the gym booking concept. So normally, you'd book into a personal training class or book into a group exercise class, we had to launch a gym booking slot to so we could manage the right number of people in and out So that's in play now, but as you can imagine, you know, when you you have a group of coders who are writing to on a schedule and you say, okay, that should just got squashed by five fold. Let's go. You know, that's that's a tough gig. So we had a few bumps in the road with that, but thankfully, that's settled now and that's facilitating a smoother process for the members.

Matthew Januszek 14:21 But what about the experience of you guys having to wear masks when working out? I know here I've just been on holiday myself and I each state seem to be different but they seem to have the role where you know, if you're on cardio, you don't have to wear a mask. But if you're in the strength of the functional you do, what's what are the rules that you guys are working to remove tasks.

Simon Flint 14:43 It's again, it's a bit of a mixed bag, but generally speaking, the rule is you wear a mask on arrival, you can remove it for exercise, and then you put it on as you leave in your you're in transition, passing people maybe near the door or that kind of thing. We also have a Kind of a rate of exertion index, which kind of suggests that that, you know, may not be safe if you're indexing above five and six out of 10, for example, it may not be ideal to be to be wearing a mask, we'd encourage people to wear when you can at all times. But if you're if you're exerting yourself in a certain way that may not be, you know, healthy in other ways, and you may end up getting a little bit overheated and etc. So those are guidelines we've put in place, but generally speaking, people are wearing masks when they're not really exerting themselves, which is a good thing. And I think it's it's been great to see the amount of compliance and kind of, you know, social conscience in the way that people have behaved. There are one or two kind of outliers who will argue Don't tell me to put my mask on or that or this than the other, but they really are outliers. For the most part, we've been really impressed at the way members have come together and you know, just taken it upon themselves to be responsible as an individual, and therefore collectively, we have, you know, pretty safe outlets. I'm hoping actually that we can, in a not so not too distant future, try and get some data on on how safer our gyms are, it seems as though the government data in many countries is fairly clear as to where cases are. Therefore, we can map against our localities. And given that I don't, personally and, you know, my peer group, I don't know anyone who knows anyone who's who's had COVID It seems as though where, you know, we we may be in, you know, a safe spot, so to speak. So, notwithstanding, it's still out there and, you know, causes terrible damage to some, some who get it and we've got to, we've got to maintain that sense of responsibility in a way that allows us to build our business back to a sustainable level, and there is quite a long way to go yet we've got to get back to a sensible capacity. In order to thrive as an industry

Matthew Januszek 17:03 and you've got six brands, from what I understand, which are sort of fairly different, if my research is correct, how, how have the different brands, I guess, when when they've been able to open that, but how have they sort of fared and which ones do you think are probably going to be a little bit more able to sort of ride some of the challenges that are being set up on it? You know, I know for example, you've got the fire boutique brand, which which I guess is sort of a studio concept we were talking about previously you know, do you think things like the boutique you struggle a little bit more compared to some of your you know, you sort of got your fitness first brand as an example.

Simon Flint 17:48 Yeah, by nature, the boutique businesses can be a little bit harder to to get back to an acceptable level because first of all, being small footprint, the the space that's afforded added to the individual members, perhaps less than that a big box if you like. But the the most impactful factor is that when people come, they're coming to attend a class every single time. They're not coming to, you know, gone to a gym floor and do their own thing. So, the big box big boxes tend to have an advantage in that sort of structural respect. Having said that we have layered on additional classes. And we are we're creeping up to close to the maximum capacity of the capacity that we're allowed today. So again, you know, underneath it all, we we feel positive that the demand is there. And, you know, again, at the boutique level, it's a bit more premium. So that's, that's comforting to know that it's there. It's just a question of being able to, you know, ease back on these restrictions, so that we can get to a point where Businesses are viable. I can't say really that across the other brands, there's a there's a clearly distinct difference because there's a little bit of demographic aspect where, you know, like I mentioned before, if you've got a group of people who fit in that age group where they may have elderly parents at home, they're affected in different ways than others, irrespective of the brand. But then if we look at GFI, which is a low price, high value brand, we've seen that there's a real keenness to get back in numbers have been fairly buoyant. But at another brand, which is at the at the lower end, we've been affected slightly more. So there are there's a, it's really mixed. And we see a little bit of both in each level, where where there's a, you know, at the top of the chart, where, you know, finances less of an issue, there's less of an impact in people's propensity to come to come back and spend with us. It's our capacity. That's the limitation Some of the brands at the lower end have seen people being a bit more price sensitive, who maybe have been affected, you know, possibly with a job. And that's been an impact. But others who are using the high value low price concept as as just a means to be smart and not spend as much on fitness. You know, they're, they're straight back in and we feel comfortable that that's a that's in a good place.

Matthew Januszek 20:22 what's what's your capacity in the boutiques and how are you what are you allowed to have in as part of your full capacity

Simon Flint 20:32 and so we're more or less 50% it's it can be slightly different depending on the spacing but but we're generally half and our biggest class would be at a one of our bigger bigger fire stations as you call them. That would take 24 people normally and others very, you know a boss studio takes takes 12 for example. So I They're, you know, if it goes on and on, we then have to look at yield. And clearly if if we were to go forward and continue sustainably, we have to nudge up the yield. And I, I believe that members will understand that it's just not possible to, to operate a business that is not profitable. So we've got to be able to balance that equation. And we've, we've, we've discussed that, that opportunity. And you know, our first step has been to deploy the virtual opportunity for members. And we've got an interesting little pilot running at the moment where we have a kind of triple branded studio where we're doing virtual for fitness first and every fitness and fire. And we've got reasonable traction to start with. And we're, I say reasonable because, you know, we, we want to get thousands of people on it. For it to be a truly viable business. We believe that we're going to reach a break even at The end of this month, we're on track for that. And you may say, Well, you know, the overheads may be quite late. But the studio itself involves quite a bit of investment. There's some, you know, to do it properly in 4k, with the right quality audio, there's quite a bit of capital involved. And then, of course, the best trainers is a variable cost. So it's, you know, that there's still a business to be created there. But that's, that's looking interesting. And without firebrand, for example, we we've not done any paid media overseas at this point, but we've seen people from as far away as , UK, Honduras, Brazil, Mexico, Argentina. And that was really interesting to see we're getting some traction there. So who knows if we, if we, you know, do a little bit of paid media and try and push it a bit. We could, we could get some really good reach. And that's particularly encouraging because, you know, I'm sure you've spoken to a lot of people about this and you as well as anybody will know that the content that's available Either video on demand premium paid for, or just, you know, YouTube bloggers all over the place, there's a ton of content out there. And it's easy to have free content, or pay a bit for some really good content. So to cut through and to be able to scale your brand content and take it beyond borders, I think is a really big prize, and it's not easy to come by. So the quality has got to be great. The every single time the the engagement has got to be fabulous. And there's there's a big difference between you know, being engaging on the stage and and engaging to a virtual audience. And we're finding that some of those who are you know, absolute show men and women on stage may not quite have the same presence and and others who may be the other way around. Can can be a little bit more engaging in the virtual world. So there's a there's a little contrast where we're finding that it's not easy, right when you can't see somebody you know, And I can see you now. So we can have a conversation as if we're in the same or, you know, almost. But if you know that there are a lot of people out there, but you can't really see anybody that's that's different because instructors feed off the vibe of the of the studio audience, right. So that's a learning as well. But I think if we can, if we can carry on making progress there, then that will be a big win and and you know, quite a necessary win, to be honest, because when you're 177, bricks and mortar outlets, and we're in the situation we're in now, we need to, we need to switch up the business and look for other ways to thrive.

Matthew Januszek 24:42 Because an interesting one, it's something that I know a lot of people have been thinking about, and I've had lots of conversations and it's, I guess, you're right, you know, there there is a big investment to do it correctly or bear it's probably a lot less than building out the studio, you know, to have a certain amount of people from jail. graphical area. But I guess it's it's, you know, some people are looking at as a service to provide their existing members. I how are you guys looking at Digital? Are you are you looking at it as the ability to, I suppose grow the amount of members that you have that are aware of you, you know outside of a bricks and mortar location? Or is it more to say like we want to find ways of adding value to the current model or combination of both?

Simon Flint 25:31 Well, ultimately is both but but in the first instance, it's very much the member base that we're wishing to serve in other ways. So I mentioned before, we have a percentage of members on freeze, where we're open, that freeze numbers come down to what might be considered normal at any one time about 6% of the membership base is on time freeze. That's it, that's a paid time freeze where they pay a small percentage to maybe they're, you know, being transgender or they've got an overseas trip or whatever it may be. That's, that's kind of normal practice and where we're where we're fully open with we've back to that level, but where we're not. And those people are saying, I just want to wait and see, we surveyed the member base. And we had a healthy number of respondents to say that they would be very interested to take up some virtual options as a supplement to their core bricks and mortar membership. And we asked you to in what circumstances might you do that? And the answers were, well, if I'm, if I'm too busy, and I miss a class that I was supposed to go to, or if I'm not able to get into a class, then that to me, will be a good option, just to pick up an extra class at home. So that's the first audience that we wish to serve. And in getting feedback from the audience as to how was it How did you find it or make it better? Then logically, because you've got the sunken cost, you've got the sunken cost of the studio and then the capital to put it all together, and ultimately the platform upon which to consume it because personally, I don't see that You know social media streaming is the is the end game I think you've got a home in place for your content for members to to engage with and therefore you've got the you know the member engagement patterns and data that helps you to that that will be the anchor but at the moment it's just just getting that extra bit of value for the loyal members have been with us for years and so that they can stay with us and then from there we branch out

Matthew Januszek 27:26 I was listening to an interview when I was preparing for this another one you're done and you Although you do reference the book I I thought it sounded something similar to a book I read about I think it's called play to win is that is that book you've read? Okay, and it was it was about you obviously no, no the book but what so when you guys are looking at strategies is that very much the approach that you and your your team take it's not if we're gonna if we're going to enter this market that you know we're playing to win as opposed to playing to be an also ran is that The the mindset of your, I guess leadership to me

Simon Flint 28:03 it Yeah, it's it's it's something that we in fact we all read the book it was kind of a it was a bit of a diktat from above that was hey you know, this is this is worth reading and and it was and I in an ideal situation been very honest yes it is it's not always as easy to do that because plan to win you know let me let me give you an example if you take the you know a startup if we're going to play in this space we need to play to win and what do people do they raise money, they raise money so they can win market share so they can develop an innovative superfast speed and and go beyond the minimum viable product to market. So it's it's generally an investment game to really go hard on playing to win. But the mindset is very important to have because it did ask you, you know, to scrutinize take the virtual group exercise, well, how are we going to win? Are we going to win by filming with our mobile phone and having you know breakages in the The connections and crackling voices and, you know, studios that are not necessarily lit well and don't have the right environment, what does playing to win look like? And you can either do that yourselves amongst your groups or you can ask you can ask your audience, your potential audience, what would it take for you to engage and pay this amount for a product, and then you can determine at least what the ingredients look like. It's not it's not foolproof. But it's a really good indication of what you need to be aiming for. So I think it's a mentality that, that we like as a business. And it helps us to, to really address what we need to get right up front if this is going to cut through to be something sustainable. And when

Matthew Januszek 29:44 you as a group, you've been very successful. You know, I've watched you guys for many years. I've been fortunate to work with you on a number of projects. How would you describe your leadership team, you know what, what it is about them that Guess make some success? What is it? Is it about getting the right people around the table? Is it about kind of being able to make the right decisions? Is it about to anticipate what's going on? And, and how has How has that leadership team performed over, I guess, the last sort of three or four months, which has probably been a pretty tough period for any leadership team?

Simon Flint 30:22 Well, a few questions in there. So that just how is the leadership team in general, I mean, a very resilient bunch of people. And, and the, the one thing that's, that's really, you know, it's my, my good fortune to work with a group of people like this is that we have a very good camaraderie, yet an ability to draw the line when it comes to, you know, hard business discussions, and there are some pretty feisty discussions that we've had over the years and, and the reason for that is because everybody's got an opinion. Everyone's got a point of view and that matters. Because without it, you have groupthink and you can blindly take a direction that is unchallenged. And that doesn't do anyone any good. So we have a good team dynamic in that sense we have a mixed bag of personalities you know, everyone over the years has been color profile. So we have we have people who are red blue combinations so that you know, that's aggressive a driver, with that other component being the blue piece being having a cautious undertone to it and an analytical undertone to let's push it but let's not let's not be blind, let's make sure the numbers are making sense. That's that's one character you've then got your your kind of your, your green characters who are very people oriented and warm, humanistic in nature and your yellows or brighten energy, bring energy into the room. So we've got a really good diverse, you know, personality group of people to which which is always a pleasure to work with, rather than than having everyone sort of clones. And, you know, in amongst the group, there's a ton of experience. As well as most people have been in the business for the best part of two decades, if not more. And, and that matters too, because, you know, we've, the mistakes that have been made in the past have been learned from the the understanding that mistakes might happen. And we do need to learn from it as we go forward is is is key. And also to have the humility to look across at appear and say, okay, that's, that's best practice, I'm going to, I'm going to steal that back and have it have it for for my territory. So the cross, the cost sharing of best practice from country to country is important too. We have some good diversity in the leadership team with a balance of male and female to we've got quite a number of female heads of department from finance to it to marketing. So that really helps as well to create a nice rounded environment. To work and I forgotten what your last question was there as well? Oh, yes. He said leadership during the last three months or so. Yeah. Well, to be honest, I couldn't be more proud Matthew, to be honest, we've got I should mention communications our head of communications is a very strong female as well. And that's that's in my mind because communications has been everything in the last few months. You know, when when something is looks black on Tuesday, and it's white on Wednesday, the flag again on Thursday, that that leaves people in a head spin well, hang on a minute, I thought this was happening and now this is happening. You know, you get a lot of member sentiment just outpouring on on the on the in social media. You know, we've been, we've been bashed by a lot of comments for things that have been broadly out of our control, but yet, we've got to have the humility to apologize because it's, you know, it's not the experience we wanted our members to have, whether it's our fault, someone else's fault. We didn't want them to feel that way so to speak Back to the point about leadership, the when we went into the sort of hard lockdown and the you know really locked down work from home, I can honestly say a pretty frantic pace in our business is the norm, but it went up a notch. And to give you an example of some of the things that happened there, we said collectively, right? Where are we? What can we do to maximize productivity of every individual in the business. And I'll show you pick some really good examples. So general managers in Malaysia, on to learning and development courses, given assignments and given homework to check in within on daily basis to measure productivity, to measure learning and develops us generic learning and development to come out of it a little bit more rounded, a little bit more knowledgeable. So when we get back, we're a bit of a better person than we were than we did we left. Take the age of business as a whole. We made a decision that we were going to depart from one of our software providers In for lead management system and for CRM. And we did that from a from a cost saving perspective, but also from a an efficiency perspective. In fact, what we're using was was over engineered for our needs. And we wanted to do something more fit for purpose. I should not mention any any names. But what we did was have everybody in every country get onto l&d platforms, learn the new software that we're putting in then in the background, our IT teams migrated the data from the existing software that we're using this so this is all you know, prospect leads that are sitting there, migrated into a new the new system so that when we started to open back up five weeks from having an existing platform integrated into our back end software, having migrated all the data, integrated the new front end package and having people back in the real world working on a new package, just like that was seamless. That was a fantastic example of what what's possible when you've really put under pressure. And you know, nobody even saw each other everyone was at home, it was all done completely remotely, which is, you know, that really makes you think, Wow, when you get pushed to the extreme, you know, you're on sort of a war footing, what really is possible. So then you start to say, Well, what what can we capture from this mentality, this kind of war footing mentality to take forward into the next chapter? And I guess it's going to be a balanced because we, I don't think it's possible to work at that kind of pace and that have frenetic that was during the time, but the real key lessons there. Let me think of other examples, let me let me take Thailand's personal training example which is, which is fantastic. Personal Trainers made no less than 10 phone calls to their clients. Asking Would you like a free session while you're at home, over the over the Internet, and many, many people said And then then of course, there are a number of other people who were not PT clients being receiving the same call, and having a similar experience. So rapport started to build during this period that wasn't necessarily there prior with people who did not do Personal Training, then when the clubs reopened the teams engaged those people who've had those phone calls to say, Hey, would you like a fitness assessment with the person who they'd been engaged with? So there's a familiarity there? Then a good number of those said, Yeah, I'll do that. And then a really good number of those over indexing versus our normal numbers then said, Hey, actually, I'd like to buy a personal training program with you. So our business there is hitting records in personal training, conduction and credit to mark and the team therefore, setting a new standard and really shine a light on what what level of engagement you can go to, in the most tricky of circumstances, to have a payoff and really, it's kind of the you know, as Marco described himself, that The Law of Reciprocity where you know that that's sowing the seeds of goodwill has a pay off. And on that point in general, by the way, I think that we mentioned that many times and just to come to, you know, communication, right across the board and led led centrally from head of communications, Jill, here in Malaysia, we were very proactive in explaining to our staff, where we sat, what we wanted to do. And the position that we took was we want to serve as many seeds of goodwill with our membership base as we can now. So when we reopen, we have this kind of reciprocity and people, people returning it to us. And, you know, we're not opening enough markets or we're not we're not having been open long enough to feel the full effects of that. But Thailand where we're closest to normal as possible. That's certainly a measurable payoff, which is which is really pleasing. But in general, you know, I give hand on heart full credit to the team for for their leadership during this time. It's been it's been a privilege to work with people like this are so committed. And I suppose Matthew asked about, you know, the characteristics of the team, we have what we call winning ways or values in the business. And we have things like we, you know, we win together, we aim higher and own it is one of the big ones. And I think there's probably one that everyone is an exemplar of its owning it, people own it as if it's their own business. And, and will not let it go until, until they feel that they know they've, they've executed on their best and that's, again, you know, I think our own companies who change from time to time but but have people like that, you know, it's it's unfortunate that that we've got a team of executives, and a team of people who work for them who can have that, that personal ownership of their jobs and their tasks to get it done.

Matthew Januszek 39:49 What have you found has been that this sort of sweet spot in terms of frequency and duration of meetings where you get together and go through that stuff, and how Changed whilst you've gone through in the last few months.

Simon Flint 40:05 It's gone up. And I've read around and I think we're in the norm that seems to be a pattern that that many report so that the frequency of engaging has increased. And again, it's, it's, it's helped shine a light on you know what it means to be more agile and nimble and fast. I mean, I've I've always thought that we've, we've been reasonably quick. But now I've decided that there's a new bar and and this concept of agile, which is, you know, going from the sort of software development world is something that we can we can do a lot better with internally and I, I don't know whether we'll do this virtually or when we can get together next but I have it in my mind that I'd like to get get our teams together and actually do some group training in the concept of Agile working to move with this, you know, this sort of matrix project based kind of approach to make to making change happen. We've got a whole raft of new initiatives in the business we call ew 2.0 revolution bonus 2.0, which is a reinvention, which is, in part a restructuring. rebasing some of our costs, because, you know, we've we've got to expect that to be able to return to the level of revenue that we once had at our peak is is not not gonna happen for some time. And if we, if we plan that, oh, yeah, we think we'll get there in a year or two years, that's dangerous. We have to plan not to get there and take action such that we can reach respectable margins without having reached those levels of revenue. So what does that mean? That means being more efficient means means being more lean, using technology, perhaps where we might have not done before, and having more of the people who we employ being a revenue generating position. So that again, is on our current agenda. And you know, I'm sure we're not you unique in that respect, I think pretty much every every company has got to be looking at things in that way.

Matthew Januszek 42:05 You've got? Well, from what I read over 7000 employees, how have you managed to? So keep quite a few of those on TV? Have you felt like most of the ones that are working inside the facilities?

Simon Flint 42:20 No, I mean, furloughing is not an option for us, you know, per se over here. So, we, we let go a number of people who are on probation, who, sadly, who would kind of just recently been employed for a few hundred, in fact, close to about 400 people on probation, we had to just park for a while and very painful to do that. They just been through a very exciting induction. And, but we simply couldn't afford to, to have an additional burden on the business which could have, you know, taken us to a dangerous point. Now, the way I come concession works is that there are a number of people who work for a salary. And that's it. But they're, most of our employees work for a salary and some performance pay. So take, for example, a personal trainer, there'll be a base salary, and then there'll be a variable earnings depending on, you know, the hours of personal training that they do. Now, instantly, those personal trainers have lost their variable pay. So all of the salaries were left 100% intact. And, as is the you know, the employment code anyway. However, what we did do is we had a voluntary approach to those who were in support officers in particular, and on generally higher higher salaries. So if you take someone in the field, a someone who works in sales or someone who works in personal training, their earnings have dropped by accident and in fact, the very best person training so we'll be doing the, the highest number of hours, they would have had the biggest impact because their salaries broadly speaking, similar to others, but those who were working for a higher status We were less than affected. So we felt it more equitable. If, you know, there were people, people took a voluntary reduction. And I say voluntary, again, because we have to follow human resource codes of conduct and practice around the region, which we did. And again, I'm very humbled that everybody got on board with that. You know, a few people were kind of, you know, a bit a bit put out by understandably when people had bills to pay and that kind of thing. But the the level of compliance and buy in and teams Minh ship was was exemplary, I have to say, you know, we had everybody got on board. And we're, we're coming out of that now and getting to hopefully, if we can, you know, make a billing run, as we say, in every market, so we've got some revenue in every market. Hopefully we can, we can look back on that. And it's a thing of the past, but as I said before, we've got to, we've got to revisit the cost structures. So the pressure The fixed cost pressure is reduced in the business, take 177 leases, the biggest chunk of your cost is the rent cost, then you've got your employment cost and then utilities on top of that, okay, utilities stop when you're, you're closed. renters are subject of negotiations, some landlords have been very supportive. Some have been, you know, very inflexible and and we, there are a couple of clubs that we've closed, actually. Maybe a couple more, we will I mean, if it only ends up being four out of 177, I think we've done incredibly well. But that will be a direct result of how landlords are able to work with us. You know, landlords have got difficulty as well, let's, let's, let's be clear, so nobody's got a magic pot of money. But what we're saying to landlords is, you know, if you can help us out now, at least we've got a chance to be a good, you know, paying customer going forward. We've fought for years in some cases, decades. We've paid our rent on time, every month. You know, the ideal tenant if you like, never late and and just, you know, a tenant that you'd expect to have. But when you have no revenue, there comes a point where if you keep doing that, then there's nothing left. So it's it's getting landlords to understand that is important and, but equally having the discipline to be able to say, Well, you know, if, if we're not able to do this, we're not able to renew the lease, and we have to close. And we've done that in a couple of cases. And I sincerely hope we don't need to do it anymore. But for the sake of the business as a whole, we'll do it if we have to. It's we're not we're not going to have a really significant economic drag from one or two locations that pulls the rest of the business down and, and puts further pressure on people's compensation or, you know, people's livelihoods that that that's not going to happen, so we will do what we need to do.

Matthew Januszek 46:56 Culture is clearly an important part of your organization with an With the, I guess, restrictions on being able to travel, you're in six cities in six countries, did you say 6676 countries yet? Did you say that you'll have to look at other ways of kind of continuing and supporting that that culture? And if so what you know, what, what do you think you'll do differently if you can't have those in person meetings and trainings and events that you've probably done in the past?

Simon Flint 47:27 Well, you know, every country has a managing director who upholds the culture in their territory. You know, I would travel about 33% of the time, but it's not me that makes that difference. You know, I it's me, that reinforces it. And let everybody know that this is real because everybody lives and breathes this culture. So when we, when we go and inspect what we expect, you know, people if I'm in a club, or I'm speaking to someone and I'm talking about things in a way that I would expect that the managing director to or the area business managers to, that just reinforces the culture. You know, we can still do that. Remember? So I, you know, I see if things carry on with the kind of restrictions we have for for much longer, I can imagine that we will engage in some more online platforms and some cross sharing with our peer groups. But, you know, we've got good leadership teams in each country. So it's not it's not a big difference in that sense, what what is different is of course, personal contact is is the, the fuel and the reinforcement of personal relationships. And that's, that to me is it is a big loss. It's, it's not something necessarily you you feel now but I suspect when we when we do have FaceTime again, it's something that will probably realize, you know, just how different it was. So I, I strongly believe in FaceTime and and spending time together building personal bond sharing experiences, it's it's really key for 14 days. dynamics, but the fact that we can see each other at the end of a line, and we can do so frequently, and talk and debate and and, you know, speak to inflammation in screens that we can share is a massive, massive benefit. And, you know, we can still do well with that in the interim.

Matthew Januszek 49:18 We talked about the leadership team that you're part of, but it's coming down to you as a leader, you know, what, what's it been like for you personally? Is it Have you been a tough, tough few months? And what are some of the things that you know, have you had to gain learn new information yourself? And, and are there any things that you've had to, I guess, grow into what change and adapt as opposed to continue to be the best CEO that you can be?

Simon Flint 49:51 I could, I could sit here and say, you know, give you the whole rah rah speech, about about how we ride through these times and I would be a fraud It's been miserable it you know, in general, because the pressure has been there every day and why I don't mean to play down the whole thing with that when I use the word miserable. I mean, it feels like that at times it can be very dark at times when you can project this this level of threat and think, you know, what, what could the worst case scenario be? That's what's miserable about it. But then you, you reflect and say, Well, what what can we control? What is within our, within our domain that we can do something about. And in the first instance, whether it's good or bad, the first thing that you can control this communication. And because if people don't have any information, good or bad, then things start to happen. And people will kind of speculate and assume, and then they may talk to someone else with that speculation in that assumption, and then you end up with false information that might be damaging. So at least if it's, you know, at least if it's not the great news, you can always you can always be back end, the news that you get if it's bad with, this is what we're going to do about it. And this is what we're going to do to be more prepared and to be to put our members at ease and to give our members ratio. And so whatever it is, controlling communication is essential. So I, you know, I've always felt that communication is important. And I also feel that access to senior management is important. You know, when you look at what, what people rate as the most important things in being being in any given company, you find that compensation normally comes around about number seven, as long as there are other opportunities to be a part of something bigger, to see an opportunity for me to contribute and to grow. And then there's this thing about access to senior management where people want to hear what's happening, you know, what's, what's happening? What's the vision, where are we, where we've been taken to, where are we steering towards next. So, being able to communicate and share information is crucial and in fact, Speaking to my head of communications this week talking about you know, it's time we put out another, another communication, a descending our support office. And I elected to wait just a little bit because I felt with with September around the corner, I think we're going to be dealing in a couple more markets, which would mean we can front end that with a bit more optimism, right. So I kind of cheaply stole a couple of weeks there because I would much rather be able to come back with that to say, we've been through this particularly tough patch now we've got billing in this market, we've switched back on revenues in this market members are coming back, these are the statistics. This is this is why it's been worth, you know, hanging, hanging out through this and being resilient and knuckling down in the meantime. So communication and and being proactive with it has been has been key but it's you know, it's far from just me it's it's a heads of department and it's a country managers that are the principal communicators with their, with their teams on a more on a more routine basis. In terms of leadership in general, to, to answer your question, I think what, what's what's been reinforced is, is that when, when we're at a distance, you can't, you can't pick up on just the body language. And when you're in a room with people or you're in a club with people, you can, you can read people's moods, and you can read people's energy, you can walk into a club, if it's not doing well, you can feel it within five meters of walking, you can just feel it, you can feel the energy in the air, there's something not quite right here. Conversely, when a club is pumping, you can also feel that and that might be trading pressure or, you know, some management dynamics or whatever it is, you can't feel that when you're when you're at the end of a loan like this. It's just a narrative that you're taking on board. So I think that that asking open ended questions and really probing and getting a wide wider view from as many members In the team is possible is, is perhaps more important to get perspective? Because at times like this, you know, like I say, you can, you know, look taking a country visit sitting down with a group of 20 people just engaging in non business subjects, you can read how people feel about things just on their general mood, how jovial they are, how engaging they are, you can't do that when you when you you don't, you don't have the ability to meet again. So that extra degree of open ended questions really matters, which speaks to our leadership philosophy, really, which is all about a coaching mindset.

Matthew Januszek 54:38 So with I, in preparation for this, I read up I think it's been helped by management actually, not too long ago, where pride I think, was probably beginning of the year, end of last year where you'd sort of set out the various different brands and initiatives and some of the acquisitions that you're involved in and it's it's pretty, pretty impressive and you seem to have covered all bases within the You know, the sort of fitness space? Probably more broadly, you know, well, wellness, I guess with with the yoga side and the nutrition. And what what do you think now is, as we start to maybe come out of this in some some respects, you know, do you think those you know that that strategy is going to need to change? And if so is it? Have you got enough information to really understand properly which one of those they're going to be sort of developing a lot more than others? Are you still at a stage where you know, just wait and see until you've got more information about you know, what, what the sort of this is normal world's going to look like?

Simon Flint 55:42 Well, there's there's plenty of evidence that suggests that the the, the mental wellness agenda is going to is going to rise You know, every year. You know, you being an industry veteran as well. You'll be familiar with the annual reports that come out to see the top, you know, the top 20 sort of trending trending topics and they, they it's like the you know, it's like the the music charts that they just they just vary a little bit and what's dropped into number one we've had, we've had our hit phase and then you start to get this sort of recovery piece. I believe that that we're going to get into the, the sort of low inflammation, low oxidative stress kind of workout regimes. Next as particularly as people have realized that well, maybe doing it five times a week is perhaps what my knees ordered. But, but but really, to come back to the to the bigger point and the particular impact that this discovery situations had. Having people kind of locked away hinders hinders people's human connection. Therefore, this community aspect that our business provides, irrespective of the modality of your training, your engagement, I think the community aspect is something that will shine back strongly again 38% of our members who are principally female and in this in this cohort, right the social activity, the social connected piece as their number one reason for engagement. So they might be engaging around Zumba or yoga or whatever it is, but the social piece is massive. It transcends every modality of exercise. But then coming back to what we read and what we hear about the state of mental wellness, people being locked away the social aspect, the the the worry, the anxiety that you know, this, this dark period is brought upon us, that provides an opportunity for the awareness as to what the more wellness kind of classes or programs offer, being mindfulness meditation, yoga, breathing, that kind of thing. Just bringing everybody on everyone back down and releasing anxiety being able to process thoughts and clear the mind and move on. I think there's an enormous opportunity. They're both in the in the the bricks and mortar space and online I'll give you an example. Five Elements which is our wellness brand that we acquired a couple of years ago which started as a fantastic retreat Hotel in Bali. We, we worked on that the brand architecture to create something we call five elements habitat. So we took that into Hong Kong a year and a bit ago, that's in Times Square in a very busy, very busy part of Hong Kong. You know, you come out from the MTR just just a conveyor belt of people coming out there. And the streets are particularly busy, there's a hustle and bustle you then walk into the environment and instantly your shoulders just drop it's an entirely different space. And it has people and talent in there that delivers something very, very special. It's very hard to describe, and particularly to people who might be you know, crossfitters or to it too, you know, that that kind of group to walk into that environment is is a very, very good thing and then you look at what what's available in there we've got a, we've got a tea Master, who is an M is Russian, she's, she's fantastic and she, she runs tea meditation sessions, so she will have corporates in there but the 10 people, she might do it in small groups, but they'll spend an hour or even two, drinking tea in a very mindful way. Sometimes more or less than silence, sometimes just spoken, general chat, understanding the journey of tea, how it makes you feel. If you imagine, you know, in the Hellenistic world, people go to wine tasting and how does it taste how you feel, what's the color, that kind of thing. Imagine the same with with the highest quality organic teas that's from the, you know, the hills of China, for example. She will do the same thing. And she's she's been running as part of our five elements online. She's been running some virtual tea, tea meditation sessions and people have been joining in online, to have that connection again, and to have that guided process. That's where they can sit down find peace find calm and and and have that moment So, you know how how amazing is that that that's a that's an opportunity that opens up and when you have a brand like five minutes with the talent that it attracts and we have there you know we're really privileged to be able to be in that thought leadership space and we wish to we wish to carry on and spread that as far and wide as we can. So we see a lot of opportunity there in particular, helping people just to cope with these difficult times.

Matthew Januszek 1:00:32 And do you say you know if you projected let's say 12 to 24 months assuming there's no vaccine for the STDs still see Yeah. And you made made an interesting point about the community you know, I certainly feel that I can work out like you, you know, you can, you can work out anywhere pretty much you know enough about working out to pick up some dumbbells or as sandbag and do something but it's, it's not quite the same as just, you know, me People and having that connection. Do you think that that, you know, assuming there is no change that that that that is still somehow going to find a way to to thrive even if it's in conjunction with some sort of, you know, maybe less frequency or digital element. But if we predict that those physical locations are going to sort of be here, regardless of of what, what happens, do you think?

Simon Flint 1:01:29 Well, and another book I like is a book called economics is the answer to everything. And there's, that's very relevant in this case, because society has a way of finding out what works economically and and then things start to thrive. So what worked economically before maybe compromise now for for a short while for a long time. For an even longer time, I don't know but in the interim, the The adaptation that will take place will be vast. And landlords will have to respond in the way that they they consider the cost associated with what it is that we provide in the bricks and mortar world, there'll be a lot more experimentation, a lot more innovations and adaptations and things will start to find a way things will start to get traction. And when things get traction, they will kind of bergeon and, you know, bubble up and people will then start to follow and I don't know exactly where that's going to go. I don't think any of us have a crystal ball. But again, to put my optimist hat on it, let's just look at the backdrop of society, particularly in this part of the world where I'm in Malaysia at the moment, the levels of obesity are, they're off the charts, they're in the 14th percentile. Diabetes is in double digits and growing year on year. And in fact, they get let's just look at some of the statistics that come out of the industry. You and this is where I think you know, I get a little bit frustrated and think we What more can we do about this because the backdrop of the general health of society, the rising healthcare costs and the fact that governments are concerned about not being able to fund what the future predicts for healthcare costs. What can we do to have an impact on that now and how can we, how can we use our expertise and you know that, in our case, the nearly 7000 staff that we've got to do something about that? So again, just talking about Sony yesterday, we were hatching some plans to get involved at the school level on an extra curricular basis. We were talking about kids who are under lockdown. In Hong Kong, I heard that that teachers are wanting to have them exercise first. First thing you do is exercise vigorously to wear people out so they can sit down in front of the screen and focus. That's quite interesting. And I think that's an opportunity Not talking about monetizing. I'm talking about you know that that law of reciprocity against ceding our brand, getting our instructors in front of people and providing that as a service for free. So, so there's, this opens up loads of other opportunities, most of which we haven't even come across yet, mostly, which we haven't thought about. So I think the amount of adaptation is going to be huge, the virtual piece, of course, there'll be more exploration and adaptation there. But to say that, you know, bricks and mortar is over, it'll never recover. I just, I just don't buy it. That's like saying that the restaurants will shut down and all we'll do is live off takeaways forever. I can't I can't really see that being the case that society in general, is very resilient and very adaptive. And I'm sure we'll see our industry thrive in different ways. We've just got to be resolute that we will keep that change mindset. I was saying this to a group the other day that you can't There's no playbook for what we have. Now. No one's ever done this before, you can't pick up a how to manual, it doesn't exist. But the one thing that everybody really needs is, is the, the, you know, changes is the only permanent constant. And if we keep that in mind, and we keep this change mindset so that every time it's you know, traffic lights red, now it's green, now it's red, now it's green. If we if we kind of get worn out with that, that's not going to serve as well. We've got to expect it to we've got to anticipate it to chop and change. And then to keep that resilient mindset. So right, what's in my control? What can we do about this? What's the way to win with the circumstances that we have now? And I think if that's the mindset we can keep, that's the mindset that's going to help us all win.

Matthew Januszek 1:05:46 Hmm. It's an interesting one. I love the part you say about kids. So a couple of kids doing homeschooling and I think you're right, you know, before you sit in front of a computer and a mess, I've had them running up and down the stairs or Around the around the block, you know, they're not going to sit there for five minutes and and I guess what he what the situation has done for me is he's realized that the government's have no clue about health and fitness. You know, if you look at the leader of you know, in the UK, he was admittedly obese and he is admitted that he needs to get into shape to be able to deal with you know, if anything happens again. And so I think that the leaders in countries don't really know what to do, they don't know how to cure you and medicate you and that sort of stuff, but they don't end up doing a good job at necessarily advising people from what I've seen anyway, in terms of how to prevent and to build resilience and strength and, and everything that you need to do and I suppose it it seems as though it is for people, you know, leaders like you know, in your group and and people whose I guess mastered their craft, you know, it probably allows the, the people who work hard and I guess are very good at what they do to to have the opportunity to stand up and to make a difference and I suppose The Economics would automatically go without but I guess I mean, I certainly see a shift from an industry that was very much about, you know, sort of six packs and biceps to, to potentially becoming an industry where it can make a real difference in people's lives on so many ways. I don't know what your thoughts are on that.

Simon Flint 1:07:23 Well, yeah, I agree. I don't think that we have done this is, you know, self criticism. I don't I don't think we've done enough anywhere near enough for the education of general society about healthy living and to use the much overused word, lifestyle, you know, people talk about a lifestyle brand, but what does it mean to be a lifestyle brand, a lifestyle brand is something that that is baked into your, what you do your way of work, it gives you more utility in everyday so if we can, whatever again, whatever the modality, whether it's yoga, whether it's a kids class, whether it's just an Education, we need to be able to get across to more and more people, as an example, take the penetration levels of the Western world and we're here if you know Australia, US 16%, whatever it may be in the health club, world, racquet sport, a bit different, etc. But if you look at which ones have the best penetration, and the best retention, they are what you might describe as the genuine lifestyle brands because they're the brands that people can genuinely build your life around. So take a take a family health club that might have racquet sports, it might have a couple of swimming pools and massive capital investment. And not something that that, you know, the average person can turn to and say, Okay, I'm going to I'm going to create a big, you know, multi sports lifestyle facility, but they do well and people seldom leave them because people can build their lives around them. That you know, they may actually get away with slightly inferior service at certain areas or they may get forgiven for certain things because you know that it just ticks all the boxes when it comes to this has got what I need is I can get there within a reasonable commute. My sons and daughters can go there we can be there as a family on a weekend. So what does that mean for for other brands? What does that mean for boutiques? What does it mean for low cost gyms? If they're a convenience, and they're the low cost end where I don't really need to think about it, then that probably takes care of that piece of engagement. But when it when you start to pay a little bit more mid upper market to premium, then if I'm going to carry on doing this, I've got to be engaged in a way that's just beyond utility. Just beyond that. That's a really good workout. I perhaps need to have a little bit of community. What does that mean? That means that someone speaks to me every time I go, it means that I've got a human connection via a member will be at the staff member. So as businesses we need to facilitate those in introductions to human connection, whether they be little social events every now and then, even if it's just a welcome to a new person at the beginning of a class and an introduction to the rest of the group. And there's no reason why the bigger the bigger players can't do that. That's not an exclusive right of the boutiques that that Well, we're a boutique therefore will be we'll be nicer to our customers than everybody else. That's just the choice. That's just an attitude and the mindset. So I think there are a lot more opportunities there as well. But back to this point about education. One of the and I guess it speaks to one of your early questions. It really fuels my resolve to do to do something about that, because I think that the the education piece is the key to shatter some of the myths about that, that surround exercise and nutrition and just to get people engaged to get to give people that feeling. Because the penetration levels are particularly low, I kind of sidetrack myself there. But in the West, the penetration levels are high because the engagement over here they're low. By comparison, and you know, in some of our markets, they're still in the five, six and sevens, you read about one or 2% in Asia, for example. But that's a misleading statistic. If you talk about the whole Indonesian archipelago, then of course, the penetration is pretty low. But when you look at Java, central Jakarta, for example, those numbers are a bit higher, but still has a long way to go to meet the West. And it's not all about disposable income and affordability. It's about awareness and about a consideration, well, could this be something for me? So education is going to be a big one and sowing those seeds of goodwill with the the the more marginalized communities, the kids, I think that's something that we can play a big part in.

Matthew Januszek 1:11:48 Fantastic. Well, one final question Simon, and we've covered quite a bit of ground in the last 60 minutes, but I'm just just the final question I'd like to answer you. Ask you escape your limits is about escaping what you've believed is impossible and gone on to make it possible. What would you say would be a memorable, memorable example of your escape in your own personal limits?

Simon Flint 1:12:16 Gosh, that's a... that one needs a lot of reflections on that. Well, I suppose. You know, I don't I'm not one, particularly for talking about personal journeys, but I'm very privileged to be in the position I'm in with a staff of nearly 7000 fantastic leadership teams, six brands and six different countries. And, you know, if I think about my background, I wasn't if I was destined to be there, you know, my family from a very humble origins. My grandparents were from, you know, from the mining community in the UK. My parents were tremendously hard working and You know, saved and saved and saved for the best house, they could decorate the house themselves did it room by room by room until it was beautiful. And, you know, I think that's been instilled in me is the work hard ethic. And so I think that the it's not necessarily a limitation that was ever place. But I think that the, again, it's a mindset if just just knuckling down, showing up, you know, get certified, take a course every now and then be a little bit better next year than you were last year. I think that's a way to, to, to work without limits. And that's something that that is available to many. And so I think that we we should not think about what limitations I think it's a question that we shouldn't really ask. They don't need to be any limitations. As long as we have the mindset to, to give it a shot, show up, take a course and put an extra hour in the most people and the opportunities are there to go places and I'm I'm, I feel really fortunate that comes with a lot of luck. And it's a lot of good timing. But I think the message is just just knuckle down, and the opportunities are there. So, yeah, that I think that will be my reflection.

Matthew Januszek 1:14:12 Fantastic. Well, Simon, thank you so much. It's been, it's been a very enjoyable conversation. I've certainly learned a lot. I've been scribbling down some notes in my own business and I'm, I'm sure whoever listens to this will certainly take a lot away. So I thank you for for investing your time in in the interview today, and I wish you the best of luck for the future, Simon.

Simon Flint 1:14:34 Thank you, Matt. It's been a pleasure. Thank you.