[Wednesday, 28 October 1981] 496346

by the Opposition and we accept that the normal ?igiaatinrp Asambtu procedure has been followed in this case. Wednesday, 28 October 1981 Question put and passed. COMMITT'EES FOR THE SESSION The SPEAKER (Mr Thompson) took the Membership Chair at 2.1$ p.m., and read prayers. SIR CHARLES COURT (Nedlands-Premier) DEPUTY CHAIRMEN OF COMMITTEES [2.19 p.m.]: I move- Discharge and Appointment (I) That the Member For Swan (Mr Skidmore) be discharged From THE SPEAKER (Mr Thompson): I have to membership of the Printing Committee inform the House that the member for Canning and the Member for Ascot (Mr Bryce) (Mr Bateman) has been discharged from his be appointed in his place. position as Deputy Chairman of Committees and (2) That the Leader of the Opposition (Mr the member for Welshpool (Mr Jamieson) has Brian Burke) be discharged from been appointed in his place for the balance of the membership of the Library Committee session. and the Member for Kalgoorlie (Mr I. F,. Taylor) be appointed in his place. MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT: OFFICES OF Here again I record on behalf of the House its PROFIT appreciation to the two members concerned-in Joint Select Committee: Membership the case of the Printing Committee the member for Swan (Mr Skidmore), and in the case of the SIR CHARLES COURT (Nedlands-Premier) Library Committee the present Leader of the [2.17 pm.]: I move- Opposition (Mr Brian Burke). That the Member for Swan (Mr Question put and passed. Skidmore) be discharged from membership of the Joint Select Committee inquiring into PARLIAMENTARY SUPERANNUATION the law relating to Members of Parliament FUND holding Offices of Profit under the Crown and the Member for Welshpool (Mr Trustees Jamieson) be appointed in his place. SIR CHARLES COURT (Nedla nds-Premier) In referring to the three notices of motion [2.20 p.m.]: I move- standing in my name, I indicate the persons who That the Member for Collie (Mr T. H. are to replace the retiring members of the Jones) be discharged from his position as respective bodies are those nominated by the Trustee of the Superannuation Fund and the Leader of the Opposition, as is the custom in Member for Perth (Mr T. J. Burke) be cases such as this. I would like to record on behalf appointed in his place. of the House the appreciation of services rendered I would like to say that my fellow trustees of the by the member for Swan during his membership Parliamentary Superannuation Fund have on the Joint Select Committee. I must add that appreciated the contribution that has been made the wording we use is legally correct, but it is by the member for Collie. He has always harsh when we refer to members being approached his duties as trustee with great "discharged" from a committee. However, I thin k commitment and has, in my experience, always all members understand what it means: the sought to represent faithfully and fairly the views member has asked to be relieved of his of those who nominated him, This is an important responsibilities and a new person has been body and on occasions it calls for the trustees to appointed in his place. think as trustees rather than perhaps as direct MR BRIAN BURKE (Balcatta-Leader of the representatives of a particular party. I would like Opposition) [2.18 p.m.]: I add on behalf of the to record as chairman of trustees, my appreciation Opposition my personal thanks to the member for to the member for Collie. Swan for the job he has done on that committee MR BRIAN BURKE (Balcatta-Leader of the and to wish the people who have been appointed Opposition) [2.21 p.m.]: I would add to the to this and subsequent committees with which we Premier's remarks my full support and the full will deal the support of the Opposition. The support of the Parliamentary Labor Party and appointments are those advanced to the Premier record personally to the member for Collie my 4964 4964ASSEMBLY] appreciation of the excellent efforts he has year. Also, the unexpended balance of previous contributed to the workings of the committee as authorisations must be taken into account. trustee. I point out to the committee that we This action ensures continuity of works in appreciate and recognise his valuable services in progress pending the passage of next year's Loan this area. Bill and is in accordance with usual practice. Question put and passed. Details of the condition of the various loan authorities are set out in pages 42 to 45 of the SPEAKER OF THE PARLIAMENT Loan Estimates. These pages also show OF MALAYSIA information relating to the appropriation of loan Presence in the Speaker's Gallery repayments received in 1980-8 1; the allocation of Commonwealth general purpose capital grants: I would like THlE SPEAKER (Mr Thompson): and the distribution of $2.828 million transferred to draw attention to the presence in the Speaker's from the balance of earnings on the investment of Gallery of the Speaker of the Malaysian cash balances to 30 june 1981. Parliament. I extend a warm welcome to this, our Parliament, to you. Sir, on behalf of the members The main purpose of this Bill is to provide the of this Assembly. I hope you enjoy your stay necessary authority to raise loans to help finance white you are here. the State's capital works programme. As usual the required borrowings will be undertaken by the Members: Hear, hear! Commonwealth Government which acts for all States in arranging new borrowings, conversions, BILLS (3): INTRODUCTION AND renewals, and redemptions of existing loans. FIRST READING This function of the Commonwealth 1. Consumer Affairs Amendment Bill. Government is exercised under the terms of the 2. Motor Vehicle Dealers Amendment Bill. 1927 financial agreement and within the total Bills introduced, on motions by Mr borrowings programme for all States as O'Connor (Minister for Consumer determined by the Australian Loan Council. The Affairs, and read a first time. Loan Council also prescribes the terms and 3. St. Catherine's Hall, Greenough Bill. conditions attached to the loan raisings. Bill introduced, on motion by Mr Tubby, I t would be opportune here to inform members of the rather recent change in the means by which and read a first time. the Commonwealth undertakes borrowings on our behalf. LOAN HILL Traditionally these funds have been raised by Second Reading way of periodic public loans. However, in April 1980, the Commonwealth, with the agreement of SIR CHARLES COURT (Nedlands- the Loan Council, introduced a tap system for Treasurer) [2.26 p.m.]: I move- selling its bonds. Under this arrangement That the Bill be now read a second time. Commonwealth stock is now continually on issue Each year through a measure such as this. and borrowings are taken up throughout the year, authority is sought for the raising of loans to in contrast to the previous system of rather finance certain works and services as detailed in infrequent cash loans. the Estimates of Expenditure from the General This new system is designed to achieve a more Loan Fund as tabled on Thursday, 15 October. even flow of funds and avoid instability which has The Bill seeks to provide authority for the sometimes been generated in the past as a result raising of loans not exceeding $91 million for the of unusually large and concentrated loan raisings. purposes listed in the first schedule. It is also geared to react more keenly to market It may be noted by members that the borrowing conditions, by providing for ready adjustment of yields to match investor expectations. authority sought for each of the several works and services listed in the schedule will not necessarily In its first I8 months of operation the tap coincide with the estimated expenditure on that system has met with mixed success. With volatile item in the current year. This situallion arises interest levels internationally and uncertainty as because it is necessary to provide for sufficient to appropriate rates on the domestic scene, the borrowing authority to enable works of a system has been severely tested. continuing nature to be maintained for a period of I have some serious reservations regarding the about six months after the close of the financial manner in which the system has been managed to [Wednesday, 28 October 1981]196 4965 date and I have been successful in obtaining borrowing programme for the following agreement for a full review of its operations at the purposes- next meeting oftoan Council. $113.2 million to the State Energy Under a long-standing arrangement, the Commission for the Dampier to Perth gas Commonwealth Government from its own pipeline, Muja stage "D3", conversion or the resources, will subscribe any shortfall to complete Kwinana power station, and the Pilbara the financing of the overall borrowing programme region power integration projects: of the States. $1.6 million for country areas and town These special loans are made on terms and water supplies to provide water for the conditions similar to those prevailing (or the Worsley alumina project; previous Commonwealth public loans raised in Australia and are allocated to the States as part $1.6 million for the Industrial Lands of their normal borrowing allocation. Development Authority for works at .iervoise Bay; and This support is of great benefit to the States as it enables us to proceed with a planned $4.8 million for the Nickol Bay Hospital at programme of works secure in the knowledge that Karratha. the Full Loan Council allocation will be Details of the borrowing programme of larger forthcoming. authorities in 1981-82, including infrastructure In addition, the Commonwealth Government borrowings, are set out on page 46 of the Loan provides by way of a capital grant a proportion of Estimates. the total programme for State Governments There is no overall limit on borrowings by agreed by Loan Council. These grants now authorities seeking less than $1.2 million though constitute one-third of each State's total the terms and conditions of the "gentlemen's programme and are intended to assist in financing agreement" apply to such borrowings. The capital works such as schools and institutions programmes for State authorities in this category from which debt charges are not normally are detailed on page 47 of the Loan Estimates. recoverable. Again this year, continuing strong competition in At its June 1981 meeting the Australian Loan the market for capital funds is expected to present Council approved a total State Government some difficulties for both large and small programme of $1 307 million for 1981-82, the authorities in filling their loan programmes. same level as the previous year, made up of two- This tight market situation not only is the result thirds borrowings-$871 million-and one- of the demands of State authorities to service the third-$436 million-capital grant. Western needs of population growth and development, but Australia's allocation is $80.6 million and $40.3 million respectively. This decision has impacted also reflects the influence of some major changes on the State's works programme and has been in the allocation of loan programmes by the covered in some depth when speaking to the Commonwealth. Appropriation (General Loan Fund) Bill; and I do In recent years the Commonwealth's policy of not wish to reiterate those comments. expanding State authority programmes as an Under a "gentlemen's agreement" originating alternative to growth in State loan programmes in 1936, the Loan Council approves an aggregate has greatly increased pressure on the semi- annual borrowing programme for those semi- Government market. Further, the entry of Government and local authorities wishing to raise Commonwealth authorities into this already in excess of $1.2 million in new borrowings during overcrowded area has heightened the competition the financial year. The Loan Council has set a for available funds. In the face oF such tight total borrowing programme of $1 292 million for conditions it is the smaller States such as Western these larger authorities in 1981-82, of which Australia which find themselves at the end of the Western Australia has been allocated $101.6 queue; and their task in locating funds is made million. The basic programme remains at the just that much more difficult. The recent same level as in 1980-8 1I-namely, $75 volatility in the level of interest rates has added to million-but is supplemented by a temporary our problems in this area: and I am therefore addition of $26.6 million for rehabilitation and anxious to see an early return to stability in the upgrading of the railway between Kwinana and capital market. To this end I will continue to Koolyanobbi ng. press the Commonwealth Government to have full A sum of $121.2 million will be available to the regard for our needs in its management of interest State in 1981-82 under the special infrastructure rate policy. 4966 4966[ASSEMBLY]

The Bill makes provision also for an status being accorded will mean financial savings appropration from the Consolidated Revenue for the companies. A firm with a pay-roll of Fund to meet interest and sinking fund on loans $150000, employing four apprentices, will have raised under this Bill and previous Loan Acts. its pay-roll tax reduced from $5 880 to $1 408, a I commend the Bill to the House. reduction of $4372 or the equivalent of three- quarters of the annual wage Debate adjourned, on motion by Mr Brian of a first-year apprentice. That is the substance of the change in Burke (Leader of the Opposition). its practical application in the work place. PAY-ROLL TAX ASSESSMENT Mr Sibson: What do you do to raise that AMENDMENT BILL necessary money in other taxes? Second Reading Mr BRIAN BURKE: The member for Bunbury has raised a valid point-the cost of the Debate resumed from 15 October. scheme, and the financing of that cost. That will MR BRIAN BURKE (Balcatta-Leader of the be dealt with in detail in a moment or two. Opposition) [2.35 p.m.]: The Opposition seeks the Mr Sibson: I suggest you would probably take consensus of the House in using this Bill to put over the particular industry as a State-owned forward a sensible and well thought-out change business. That is what your intention would be. which we believe will create 600 new jobs-600 new first-year apprenticeships-in this State. We Mr 1. F. Taylor: What a load of nonsense! do not believe that any member of this place Mr BRIAN BURKE: About the only thing would argue against the desirability of bringing involving the member for Bunbury we are about those new apprenticeships. planning to take over is his seat; and he will learn The changes that we propose to this Bill would about that later. If we are to treat the subject operate from I January which, as members well seriously, he should desist so we can get on with realise, marks the peak period for school-leavers the job. entering the market place seeking jobs. When the As I have explained, in the case of the employer proposed changes are explained to the whose details I have given there will be a Government, we hope that it will see fit to endorse reduction of S4 472 in the pay-roll tax to be paid and approve of them, and to co-operate with the and that amounts to three-quarters of the annual Opposition in their implementation. wages of a first-year apprentice. A firm with a The amendments will be dealt with in detail pay-roll of over $200 000 employing three during the Committee stage of the debate. They apprentices will have its annual pay-roll tax will allow employers of apprentices to deduct the payment reduced by $2 250 or the equivalent of wages paid to apprentices from their pay-rolls. half the annual wages of a first-year apprentice. The amendments will seek to accord to the I do not think anyone would disagree with the employment of apprentices, and to the employers moral thrust of those changes or with the who see fit to employ the apprentices, some desirability of opening up the opportunities for special status. The special status will equate to a young people to engage in apprenticeships. The deduction from the pay-roll of an amount equal to problems raised obliquely by the member for double the wages paid to apprentices for the Bunbury are significant; namely, the cost of the purpose of pay-roll assessment. scheme and the financing of it. The cost of the Once I have explained that the amendments Opposition's proposal during 1981-82 would be will not cost a fabulous amount of money, but will between $1.7 million and $2 million. During promise worth-while improvements in the 1982-83 the amount would be between $3.4 opportunities facing young people today, and will million and $4 million. That is the cost of creating promise some solutions to the problem of the 600 additional apprenticeship opportunities in this shortage of skilled labour in our economy, State. members will be only too pleased, if not to We see that it would be possible to finance that support the amendments, at least to entertain burden through the investment of Treasury cash them, and give future consideration to the balances this financial year. In the Budget substance of the propositions that we intend to Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure there put forward. appears to be no provision made for income from We propose to accord special status to the this source this year. We believe the income from employment of apprentices, and special status to this source this year will amount to $18 million. the employers who are prepared to employ We are proposing that this year a sum of apprentices. In the two examples I will give, the between $1.7 million and $2 million be used to [Wednesday, 28 October 1981J196 4967 create these new opportunities. We point out to doubt that the most distressing plight in our the Government that next year, in the second year community today is the difficulty of the first job of the operation of the changes to this Bill seekers among the young unemployed. proposed by the Opposition, the growth in pay- In September, the month just passed, I5 395 of roll tax the Government is expected to receive, the people unemployed in this State were 20-year- through the natural process, is more than $24 olds or younger. That is a most distressing social million. That would be the natural growth in the problem to which this Government on countless tax. We suggest that next year's burden of occasions has paid tribute with its public between $3.5 million and $4 million would be statements. We are simply saying that the appropriately catered for by that natural growth: Government should support its public tribute with that is, the natural succession of events will look public action and seriously entertain the proposals after the costs next year. for change put forward by the Opposition in an Mr Sibson: That is what Whitlam thought, but attempt to relieve this distressing social problem. it did not work. The IS 395 young unemployed people aged 20 Mr BRIAN BURKE: There is one interesting years or less who were out of work in September sidelight on which the Opposition wants to touch included 8 280 job seekers aged between 15 and and that is the apparent contradiction that 17 years, 4 357 aged between I8 and 19 years, presently proceeds in respect of payments made and 2 758 aged 20 years. by the Commonwealth under its special trade In the next three months, between 20 000 and training scheme. This scheme provides each year, 25 000 new job seekers will be coming onto the as it probably will for the next two or three years, market and 50 per cent of those people will be an amount slightly less - than $890 000 to aged between 15 and 17 years. Therefore the encourage employers to employ apprentices and Government should not misrepresent, to assist employers to meet the costs of the wages misunderstand the context of, underestimate the of apprentices. social hardship of, or the distressing nature of, While the Commonwealth makes that money this very real problem. It is a problem that many available, it is a contradiction for the State to be of us have been touched by in our own families requiring employers to be paying pay-roll tax on and in the families of our friends. If we can act to that money being paid by the Commonwealth to relieve this most distressing social problem and if employers to encourage the employment of the changes proposed by the Opposition can be apprentices. financed, as they appear not to involve the One of the other amendments we will be expenditure* of great amounts of money, we proposing during the Committee stage of this Bill should take that opportunity to make the changes will exempt those funds provided by the ,.suggested. Commonwealth to encourage the employment of The other part of the consideration of the apprentices from the computation of pay-roll tax; couching of the changes proposed by the in other words, we will be saying we will niot Opposition involves the shortages of skilled penalise or reduce the effectiveness of those funds workers. In 1977-79 it became apparent that earmarked by the Commonwealth in the Western Australia was facing a shortage of achievement of its purpose. We will not take from skilled labour. In 1979 a State manpower the Commonwealth's effort the amount of pay- planning committee report indicated that peak roll tax the State currently takes from money shortages would occur in 1982-83. provided to encourage the employment of So here we have another compulsion. If we are apprentices. not persuaded by the social distress of young For the benefit of the member for Bunbury in people facing the frustration of fruitless searches particular, and for the House in general, the cost for jobs, we should look to the economic in 198 1-82 of that amendment will be just efficiencies of ensuring there is a reduction in the $21 000 and in 1982-83 it will be $44 000. That shortage of skilled labour available in 1982-83. seems to us to be a very small price to pay for the the years of peak shortage as predicted by that elimination of a contradiction that does no good manpower report. I shall quote a passage of the in furthering either this Government's stated report as follows- attitude or the purpose of the funds made If action is not taken to minimise the available by the Commonwealth. shortages, the impact will be felt in the When considering the changes proposed by the manufacturing sector, where a shortage of Opposition it is important to look at the context in skilled labour will result in existing capacity which the changes are proposed. There is no being grossly under utilised and fabrication 4968 4968[ASSEMBLY]

work suitable to our facilities being need me to stress the changes that the Bill, as performed interstate and overseas. originally envisaged by the Government, will What is being said is not that there will be a make; but rather about the effect of this tax and shortage alone, but that in the face of the the practical application of the Bill in its amended shortage we will be losing business to interstate form. The value of the increased deductions and overseas manufacturers. I quote again- provided in the Bill is estimated to be $1.9 million in 1981-82 and $4.4 million in the full financial Skilled labour shortages will also give rise year. to difficulties in meeting tight contractual commitments both on and off site, with a We do not argue in any way against those danger of local industry losing its credibility benefits. In fact, prior to the announcement of the for major project participation . Budget, we were responsible for publicly calling for the inclusion of relief of that sort. The So there is the third prong: the fact that the Budget did not go as far as we would have liked, shortage of skilled labour will undermine not only but it certainly went some of the way towards the our ability, but also our credibility in the position we were attempting to coax the performance of vital functions attached to major Government into occupying. However, members projects. should keep in mind that, even after the cost of That report made two recommendations. the concessions is taken into account, the Firstly, it recommended an immediate additional revenue yield amounts to commitment of State Governent funds towards a approximately $30.64 million in 1981-82, a 15.5 special apprenticeship training school and, per cent increase on collections in 1980-81. secondly, it recommended Financial assistance Therefore, while we are talking about quite from the Department of Employment and Youth minor relief in money terms, we are talking about Affairs. If, in the view of the Government, the quite major increases in those same money terms changes proposed by the Opposition do not in the actual collections and also, in percentage conform with those recommendations I put it to terms, about an increase which exceeds the the House that it is a ease of the changes being anticipated inflation rate of even Mr Howard's rejected on a purely political basis. bitterest critics. The changes we are suggesting to this Bill In support of the changes we propose I want to comply exactly with the morality of the spirit of bring home to the Government and to members of those recommendations. I would find it incredibly the Liberal Party in this State some of the truths difficult to accept that, in the face of the costings about their positions as they were when they were put forward by the Opposition, the Government seeking the votes of the people at the February could turn aside with any sort of impunity the 1980 State general election. promise that is held out to the young unemployed-to the area that suffers from the Who can forget the advertisements covering shortage of skilled labour-of the benefits of the two pages and more in the local Press promising changes proposed. the expenditure of $8 000 million on job creation In September 1980 a further report was development? Who can forget the claim in those prepared by the Government-the State advertisements of an employment boost for the manpower planning study. That study revised young? Well, here is the opportunity to see if the upwards the estimate of the shortages of skilled Government is dinkum. Here is the chance for the labour. It adjusted the figure from 3 980, as the Government to decide whether it intends to stick predicted shortage, to more than 4 400. We are by the promises it made when it wanted votes saying that, if one considers that the changes as from the people. Here is the chance, at relatively proposed by the Opposition will provide 600 new minor cost, to provide 600 jobs-600 new apprenticeship positions, that they will be apprenticeship openings-for young people in this manageable in terms of cost and funding, that State. Here is the chance to stand up and be they will go towards relieving the distress of coiuitcd alongside the advertisements that the young people without jobs and seeking jobs, and Government used to attract the votes of people at that they will move towards the fulfilment of the the time of the last State election. need for skilled labour. it is very difficult to Mr Sibson: You are indicating there has not understand how they can be turned aside by the been that increase. There certainly- has been a Government. very large increase in employment in Western I want to make one or two points, not to explain Australia. what the Bill contains, because hopefully Mr BRIAN BURKE: With about 40 per cent members will have read it themselves and will not of Western Australia's unemployed labour force [Wednesday, 28 October 1981] 496996 comprising young people, I would not occupy the MR 1. F. TAYLOR (Kalgoorlie) [2.58 p.m.]: I shoes of the member Car Bunbury in claiming speak in support of the Leader of the Opposition praise for what has come about. Nor would I turn on this matter. Pay-roll tax, along with stamp away from the chance to implement a sensible duty, is one of the principal growth taxes in any change which will not cost the world, but which State's Budget. In fact, since 1977-78 up to the will take major steps towards the fulfilment of the 1981-82 Estimate, pay-roll tax in Western hopes of young people wanting apprenticeships. Australia was expected to increase by 61 per cent. The other matter about which I would remind Pay-roll tax has been levied by the State for the House is the sort of public posturing we have approximately nine years and a Commonwealth seen on the part of the Treasurer in relation to tax preceded it for approximately 30 years. Pay- pay-roll tax. It beggars belier to cast back one's roll tax is not a tax based on equity; it is not a tax mind to the way in which the Treasurer has based on ability to pay; but rather, pay-roll tax is relentlessly attacked pay-roll tax at the same time a tax on employment. as he has used it as a vehicle to take more and Mr Sibsori: What is nationalisation based on? more from the people on behalf of whom he is pretending, with his public posturing, to be Mr 1. F. TAYLOR: Based on the performance protecting. of the member for Bunbury in the House yesterday and today, perhaps the rumours to the On 19 January 1980 a headline in The Western effect that he wants a place on the front bench are Australian said, "WA leading the bid to kill pay- true. roll tax". I have just explained to the House that, if we are leading the bid, we are certainly doing so I have not mentioned nationalisation. I am at great expense to the people who are paying the talking about pay-roll tax. If the member likes, we can discuss nationalisation at a later date. tax. While the Government is promising relief of about 54 million, it is taking in total in excess of In September 1981 the Confederation of WA $30 million or 15.5 per cent more than was taken Industry-that august body-in reporting and last year. That is a funny way to lead the bid to commenting on the pay-roll tax increases in New kill pay-roll tax. South Wales and Victoria said that the increases would penalise success and change employment Mr Sibson: Your policy is to take over all those prospects. businesses and nationalise them. The Opposition believes that if pay-roll tax is to Mr Pearce: Rubbish! That is the sort of idiotic be paid,' it must be paid by all employers liable for statement you are always making in this place. the tax. It is pleasing to see that this legislation Mr BRIAN BURKE: I repeat that the will in fact be closing some of the loopholes which grabbing of another 15.5 per cent in revenue-of exist presently and will also increase the another $30 million-is a funny way to lead the opportunities for inspection by officers of the bid to kill pay-roll tax. State Taxation Office. The proposals put forward by the Opposition It was interesting to note that, in the December are not a funny way to lead the bid to kill pay-roll 1980-January 1981 edition of Taxation in tax. In the proposed amendments we say that, at Australia, the Victorian Government's relatively minor cost, there is the chance to create Commissioner of Taxation, in commenting on 600 new apprenticeships and there is a chance to pay-roll tax evasion, said- rationalise the incidence of pay-roll tax on the It has become increasingly apparent to my areas which are most distressed within our staff and myself that many employers are not society. In our proposed amendments there i s a registered for pay-roll tax purposes. In view chance to eliminate the contradiction between the of all the publicity given to pay-roll tax I am Commonwealth Government's efforts to provide unable to accept, except in extreme funds to pay the wages of apprentices and the circumstances, a defence by an employer that State Government's efforts to tax those funds he was unaware of his liability to pay. through pay-roll tax and to rob those funds of Therefore, where we detect cases of non their full effectiveness. registration the penalties to be imposed will I hope sincerely members will look closely at be severe. the amendments and the Government will In Western Australia at the moment the penalties seriously entertain accepting the changes which which can be imposed as far as pay-roll tax will not cost the world, but which will mean the evasion is concerned are not severe enough. I world to some young people. believe the penalty comprises a fine of 4970 4970[ASSEMBLY] approximately SI 000 and there are additional through the process of proving their exemption penalties in terms of double and triple taxation. status so long as the commissioner is satisfied that Mr Sibson: I thought you were going to support they are not used for the purposes of pay-roll tax the amendment. avoidance. Mr 1. F. TAYLOR: However, on the basis of The Leader of the Opposition devoted a good equity, and from all points of view, we believe the deal of his speech to the amendments we propose avoidance of pay-roll tax itself must be to move. They seek to make it easier for accompanied by heavy penalties. With pay-roll employers to employ more apprentices. tax being based on the ability to pay, some It seemed fitting that last week the employers who lodge returns must find it difficult Commonwealth Minister responsible for to compete with employers who are evading pay- employment and training opened a national roll tax and are not subject to the same cost campaign which I believe is called "Jobs '82" and pressures as are the honest employers. which it is hoped will ind 10000 jobs for young It is distressing also that some accountants and people in Australia. In October of this year the lawyers assist their clients to avoid or, in some State and Federal Ministers for Education issued cases, evade payment of pay-roll tax and, for that a Press statement saying they are in the process of matter, stamp duty. It seems that this procedure developing a comprehensive national youth policy has become almost as important as avoiding or and will press for the establishment of a task force evading the payment of income tax, It is which among other aims will seek to remove noticeable in the annual report of the barriers to the creation of a youth policy. Commissioner of State Taxation that last year At the end of this school year we can expect to and the year before there were in the vicinity of have more than 20 000 young people go onto the 20 to 24 prosecutions for the evasion of pay-roll Western Australian labour market. Western tax. Perhaps the increase in the strength of the Australia and Australia as a whole are again State Ta)(ation Department investigation division faced with the problem of finding employment for in order to check any evasions of pay-roll tax is young people, a problem which is worsening at an required. alarming rate. One of the avoidance schemes to be closed by In September 198 1 the number of full-time jobs this Bill is the one relating to the exemption of held by teenagers plummeted by 9 600 which was charitable institutions in regard to the payment of nearly a 2 per cent decrease. In September 1981 pay-roll tax. The exemption provision in the Act in Western Australia 38 000 people were looking is being abused by way of a scheme that is for work, which was 2 000 more than in August. entered into by those wishing to avoid the For the fourth successive month we have seen an payment of pay-roll tax. Some of the moneys that increase in unemployment in Western Australia. should be paid for pay-roll tax are being In fact, the number of unemployed is 4 200 higher distributed for charitable purposes, but large amounts are in fact retained by the people than a year ago. wishing to avoid the payment. In 1980 Victoria Mr Sibson: You have to accept, of course, that closed a similar loophole in its legislation in one of the real problems for young people getting regard to public benevolent institutions and has jobs has been the considerable and continuing extended its provision, as this Bill proposes to do, pressure to increase junior wages. There is no to include religious institutions, hospitals, schools, question about that. The wages paid to and colleges. apprentices have been pushed to a stage where it The Opposition considers the amendments is very difficult for the employers to pay those proposed in this Bill to cope with pay-roll tax wages and get a return. That is one of the great avoidance must be handled by the Government problems with employing apprentices today. with care because they could cause great Mr 1. F. TAYLOR: One of the great problems inconveniene to charitable institutions which will with employing anyone today is that wage be required to justify a complete exemption from increases by their very nature attempt to keep the payment of pay-roll tax or required to pace with the rate of inflation. In no way determine and justify the amount of time an whatsoever have wage increases for young people employee is engaged in the type of work that kept pace with that rate. One of the things the would qualify the organisation for exemption. Opposition wants to do by way of its proposed The Premier should give an undertaking to amendments is to make it easier for employers to organisations whose reputations are beyond employ young people. reproach that they will not be required to go Mr Sibson: You have missed the point. [Wednesday, 28 October 19811 497197

Mr 1. F. TAYLOR: The member has missed The proposed amendments to be moved in the the point. I hope he votes with us in support of Committee debate by the Leader of the our proposcd amendments because they will make Opposition will allow employers to increase it easier for employers to employ young people opportunities for young people and will allow because of the benefits that would be allowed by more young people of this State to go into way of the legislation. apprenticeships. In fact, the number of M rSibson: You missed the point. apprenticeships available could be increased if all employers were to take advantage of such a Mr 1. F. TAYLOR: I did not. scheme. The increase would be up to 600 in one Mr Sibson: Junior wages are up to a very high year. level. SIt CHARLES COURT (Nedlands- Mr 1. F. TAYLOR: The junior wages are no Treasurer) [3.09 p.m.]: I am working on the more than they always have been in comparison assumption that the Opposition will support the with the rate of inflation. Bill on the basis that it proposes to move Mr Sibson interjected. amendments relating to apprentices and that The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Crane): Order! those amendments-of which he has given me a copy-are along the lines outlined by the Leader Mr I. F. TAYLOR: Australia's unemployment rate is 5.8 per cent of the work force, but Western of the Opposition. Australia's rate is 6.5 per cent. Only Tasmania I say at the outset that the issues the Leader of and South Australia have at this time higher the Opposition sought to explain to the House are rates. The low rate of teenage employment in not new. In fact, not only this Government, but Western Australia also is a serious problem. every Government in Australia, has on a number The Leader of the Opposition already has of occasions looked at various alternatives that are available to grant some relief in connection staled today that in this State 15400 young with pay-roll tax. people between the ages of 15 and 20 are presently looking for jobs, which is substanitally The State Government's position is clear. We more than the number in August of this year. have always opposed the tax. It is an obnoxious tax on employment and my objection to the tax The most recent Gallup poll reveals that the goes right back to the time when it was first majority of Australians consider unemployment transferred to the States by the Commonwealth, I to be a greater problem than inflation. The poll think, during was published on 20 October, and the questi on the days of the McMahon Government. It was welcomed by the States at asked was, "Do you think inflation is a greater the time as a growth tax which they desperately problem in Australia at present than needed, and in fact the Commonwealth was very unemployment; or is unemployment a greater by problem than inflation?' In September 1981, 37 smart when it transferred the tax across per cent of the people interviewed believed that agreement with the States at the time. inflation is the most serious problem facing The States had a working arrangement between Australia, and 55 per cent thought that themselves whereby they increased it in concert. unemployment is the most serious. All the major increases that have been made since In Western Australia it is interesting to note the tax was transferred to the States were made in that 37 per cent of the people interviewed concert, with the exception of the recent major increases imposed by New South Wales and considered inflation to be the most serious Victoria. So far as the exemptions are problem, and 55 per cent considered concerned, there has not been the same uniformity and the unemployment to be the most serious. No doubt States have given exemptions on differing bases therefore exists that people are concerned about from time to time; for instance, New South Wales the level of unemployment in our community and has a method of calculating its rebate which is especially amongst young people. quite different from ours and does not achieve the The former Chairman of the Australian same results and benefits for the great number of Schools Commission (Dr Ken McKinnon) said in employers that ours does. Some other States Perth earlier this month- follow our system while others follow the New School leavers will continue to face a South Wales system. Although it might appear deteriorating job market throughout the more spectacular to follow the New South Wales 1980s. In the first 10 years the number of system so far as some employers are concerned, in full-time jobs available for people I5 to 19 the total analysis it is more attractive to do what years contracted by 100 000 while the size of we have done because it gives a broader sweep of this group rose by 250 000. the relief and a broader basis of relief although it 4972 4972ASSEMBLY] costs more money than if we followed the New least as generously in its concession as was the South Wales system. Opposition. We come to this question of We have made concerted efforts to try to get exemptions. the Commonwealth to at least sit around the table Mr Bryce: The point I was making was that the and negotiate with us to get rid of pay-roll tax. It upper limits were not adjusted in the same is such an important part of State Budgets that no proportion as were the lower exemption levels. State can contemplate abandoning the tax. but Sir CHARLES COURT: If I may move onto our proposition-in which we sought the support the question of the exemption in respect of of the Chamber of Commerce, the Confederation apprentices and the proposition put forward by of WA Industry, retail traders, pastoralists and the Leader of the Opposition: If he does some graziers, and the then Farmers' Union-was to research on it he will find that many formulae work out a formula between the Commonwealth have been used to try to grant special exemptions. and the States whereby the tax could be phased We had an Act which enabled us to grant certain out. Frankly. I would not be concerned if it was rebates for some decentralised industries and we over a period of three years, five years, seven discontinued it because it created more anomalies years, or even 10 years. as long as I knew it was than it sought to solve. It was intended to cover on the way out. The reason we are suggesting the certain types of decentralised industries. We were phasing-out basis is the fact that the States can no not able to give an across-the-board relief to those doubt cushion themselves to accept some of the industries, but had to be selective, which brought phasing out, and also the extent to which the a certain amount of acrimony, but the most Commonwealth Government had to take up the annoying part of it is-and I hope the Leader of chit would not fall so heavily on it in any one the Opposition has not overlooked this-we would year; in other words, it could cushion itself to be making a very nice, handsome contribution to phase out this very obnoxious tax. the Federal Treasury because the more we It is well known that in spite of the fact if we relieved decentralised industry, or any industry, did get strong support from the Chamber of for that matter, of a charge like pay-roll tax, the Commerce, the Confederation of WA Industry, less deduction that person got when he wrote his the retail traders, and others in Western Federal income tax return. This means that our Australia, they did not have much success. They gift to Malcolm Fraser and his Treasury was did as we requested and tried to get their Federal something that could vary between 40c in the bodies behind them so a concerted drive could be dollar up to 60c in the dollar. made by all States and all these bodies to the Mr Bryce: You are talking about employment Commonwealth Government in the hope that we of apprentices. We think the money should be could work out some scheme to phase out this tax. used to further the employment of those To date the answer has been "Nil" and I cannot apprentices. see any immediate response although it has been made clear again to the Prime Minister that we Sir CHARLES COURT: I am coming to that. believe the matter should be on the agenda at the I am dealing with concessions such as those we next Premiers' Conference and we should have gave with interest and freight rebates and that another try to see whether the Commonwealth kind of thing. We tried hard to get the can face up to a phasing-out programme. So that Commonwealth to accept that if the States did deals with the tax itself. The Government makes this as part of a Statute and for good reasons no bones about it. It is an obnoxious tax which we which we were prepared to justify, it should not would like to get out of. regard that as taxable income; in other words, the It brings mc to the proposition put forward by men got that as a tax-free contribution which was the Opposition which, on the surface, might sound gross net so far as tax was concerned to help them attractive in some ways; but I want to remind the meet other problems. That was rejected. I can Leader of the Opposition that if I am any judge, understand the reasoning for their wanting to from the question he asked about the time I reject this because administratively it could be a introduced the Budget-i am not precise as to big headache, but, nevertheless, we felt it was fair whether it was 13 or 14 October-when he sought enough and it was grossly unfair if we were information about the cost to the Budget in 1981 - virtually having our concessions taxed by the 82 and in the following year on certain levels of Federal Government, so we have discontinued exemption. the amount he had in mind was less them because they were defeating themselves. than the dm01111 the Government actually Mr Bryce: Just d mromernt there, The included at that time in its Budget: so it cannot be concessions that the Commonwealth is making in denied that the State Government was thinking at respect of the State trade training programme is [Wednesday, 28 October 19811 497397 in fact being taxed by you through pay-roll tax, so his colleagues that the present Minister for you are doing the reverse. Labour and Industry has been very vigorous in Sir CHARLES COURT: No. that gets lost in advocating this question of apprentices. He has the total financial commitments of that particular been out amongst industrial and commercial firm. It is not as simple as the honiourable enterprises, exhorting them to put on every member makes out. I know it sounds superficially apprentice to which they are entitled. He has attractive, but can I refer to this question of made a similar approach to all Government giving special deductions and rebates to make it departments and his ministerial colleagues so that possible for more labour to be employed? During the Government itself is pulling its weight with the time when unemployment throughout regard to apprentices. We must bear in mind that Australia was worrying-it is still worrying, but the law will not allow a person to have an was even more so then-proposi tions were put unlimited number of apprentices. A person must forward whereby we related any additional have a quota of apprentices which is related to the employees at a particular time to the pay-roll tax number of his tradesmen. factor; in other words, very much of what the This is closely watched, and rightly so. by the Leader of the Opposition is proposing now but on unions. Perhaps it is not a relic, but it is a flow-on a much larger scale would prevail, and if a person from the days when there was a master-servant could demonstrate that he had employed extra relationship. The master-apprentice relationship people as a result of the exhortations of the in those days was probably much closer than it is Government, State or Federal, then there should today. be some concession made on pay-roll tax. When a person was apprenticed to a master It proved to be an absolute nightmare when we craftsman his position had much greater had a look at it because, human nature being significance within a family and the community what it is. we cannot completely discount it. We than it has today. The bond between the master have seen this with some of these employment craftsman and his apprentice became very real. assistance schemes and there have been The unions themselves watch very closely the complaints from Opposition members about quotas of apprentices employed. employers who have taken advantage of this and The latest figures I could obtain, whilst the have used a person on subsidised wages for the Leader of the Opposition was talking, were as at maximum permitted period and then, hey presto, 30 June 1981 when we had a total of 14 507 no job, and they go and do it all over again. registered apprentices. The previous year the total Mr 1. F. Taylor: Relating to apprentices we are was 13 907, and in 1979 the total was 14 004. imposing a moral obligation on employers. The intake is very interesting because this is the Sir CHARLES COURT: I am trying to treat key to the future. As at 30 June 1981 the the member's amendment seriously and was probationary apprentices- hose are the ones, if responding in a general way before the Leader of they make the grade, who will eventually become the Opposition explains it in more detail in the registered apprentices-totalled 5 065. It is Committee. It is a question not only of also interesting to note that that figure is almost apprentices, but also of cadets, trainees, and all 800 more than in the previous year. As at 30 June sorts of different categories. 1980 the total number of probationary At the time, we were contemplating an effort to apprentices was 4 272 and in 1979 the total was stimulate employment and provide an incentive 4 230. for employers to employ more people as well as an In the last quarter, the registered incentive to businesses in remote areas. We apprentices-these would be the probationary explored all these matters. In theory, some were apprentices who would become fully fledged not costly, but others were so costly that they apprentices-totalled 4 742. The total for 1980 could not be contemplated. That brings mec to the was 4 330 and, for 1979, 4335. very point the Leader of the Opposition has put The number of registered apprentices for the forward: namely, apprentices. I do not know past three years shows a healthy increase which whether he is aware of the fact that as at 30 June has been the result of a deliberate programme 198 I-in fact, as at today-we have an all-time followed by the Minister for Labour and Industry, record number of apprentices. his department, and other Ministers. They have Mr Brian Burke: Do you think we should not exhorted employers to take on the maximum have more? number of apprentices. Sir CHARLES COURT: Of course we want Mr 1. F. Taylor: That does not explain away more. I remind the Leader of the Opposition and the fact that there are labour shortages. 4974 4974[ASSEMBLY]

Sir CHARLES COURT: I remind the member Mr 1. F. Taylor: It is also a fact that we have a for Kalgoorlie that one cannot go on willy-nilly h ighI ra te of u ne mploymen t. recruiting apprentices. The number recruited Sir CHARLES COURT: I refer to the must relate to the number of master craftsmen economic document which was prepared by the employed. While I would not suggest that we have Treasury which sets out some of these indices in the maximum that we could have in theory, I connection with employment. want to get across to the member the fact that whether or not we have incentives I do not think The way to resolve unemployment is to increase they will affect the situation one iota. employment. Members of the Opposition love the negative and are always talking about The Leader of the Opposition plucked a figure unemployment. out of the air when he said that this scheme would create another 600 apprentices. Mr Brian Burke: You like double negative. Mr Brian Burke: Hear, hear! Sir CHARLES COURT: They like to create a position of glom and despair around the place. Sir CHARLES COURT: 1 have news for the Leader of the Opposition; it would not. It would Mr 1. F. Taylor: We are concerned. not add one single apprentice. Tasmania had a Sir CHARLES COURT: The Leader of the scheme under its Government's pay-roll tax Opposition advocated that the money to pay for rebates system in 1979-80. However, that was this scheme could come from the income of the abandoned this year for the simple reason that it investment of the Treasury's balance of funds. I did not create a single apprenticeship. That thought he would be slightly brighter than some scheme was intended to attract apprentices. From of his predecessors with regard to that particular memory, I think that scheme ran for two years. issue and not try the trick of attempting to get the We watch such schemes very closely, for the Government to spend money twice. simple reason that the Grants Commission If one starts to dig into the money which is watches them even more closely than we do. If we being accumulated during the year as well as grant concessions which are more than are taking out the rest of the accumulated funds to granted in the other States that fact is noted;, it is June 1981, one is double dealing or pulling a fast a debit against us. The commission has a system trick. It would mean spending money which may of pluses and minuses and notes our tax-raising be needed at the end of the year. The money is potential and actuality and makes adjustments accumulated, and has been consistently by accordingly. Government after Government, year after year. Tasmania had an acute need to attract Each Government very wisely has administered employment, particularly of apprentices, but the the money on the basis that it is committed for scheme was abandoned because it was capital or for expenditure in some other way. One unproductive. South Australia had a similar allows those funds to accumulate to 30 June, the scheme which was changed to a youth end of the financial year, and one does not dip employment scheme because it was found it was into the till in respect of the current year. not effective. I am not sure whether it had Mr Brian Burke: Are you saying that because administrative difficulties, but it was changed to a you do not know how much it will be, it will be youth worker scheme. less than $2 million? The matter is not as easy as it seems: I do not Sir CHARLES COURT: It will be much more think it would create a single apprenticeship. We than $2 million. have a line record of apprentices. It is something we believe in and when I say "apprentices" I Mr Brian Burke: Right, of course. include cadets, trainees, and the like. In some Sir CHARLES COURT: I gave the Leader of cases with cadets and trainees it could mean that the Opposition more credit than I should have a person attends a tertiary institution and has an done because I thought he would have been smart agreement with an employer. enough to realise that one does not dip into the till I reject completely any suggestion that this this year because one will not have any money Government has been tardy or ineffective in next year. attracting apprentices. Our percentage increase in Mr I.F. Taylor: It does not accumulate at the employment in Western Australia last year was end of the year. again well above the national average. Mr Brian Burke: How is that cheating? It is Mr Brian Burke: All your double talk. public money. Sir CHARLES COURT: We have not been Mr 1. F. Taylor: Any good business uses cash deficient in that regard. flow. [Wednesday, 28 October 1981]197 4975

Sir CHARLES COURT: For the same reasons would mean rearranging the Budget. Whether we this Government-and it was criticised by the do it for SI or $1 million, it would mean Opposition for doing so-sought to get the State rearranging the Budget, and as a basic principle, accounts onto a more honest, straightforward and that is not a sound move. regular basis. We brought in the accrual of wages New South Wales and Victoria, much to at the balancing point. In the past we had the everyone's great amazement, decided to impose a situation where we could have 51 weeks of wages surcharge of I per cent on payroll tax. Admittedly in one year, 52 weeks in another; and 53 in those Governments gave it a fixed life to June another. 1982. However, we would not have had the hide Mr Brian Burke: We are not arguing about to do that, although it would have been a lovely that now, come on. provision even if only temporary. It would have Sir CHARLES COURT: This is the same given us many millions of dollars. We resisted the principle. If one budgets forever and a day on the temptation; we did not increase payroll tax. What basis of using money before it is earned, that is we did was to create a realistic increase in the irresponsible. exemption and this has the greatest impact on the Mr Brian Burkc: The money has been earned people who need it most. since 30 June. Mr 1. F. Taylor: Before you sit down, could you Sir CHARLES COURT: I want to remind address yourself to the points made in relation to members that we can only spend it once. We do exempt institutions and the fact that the not know what it will be for the balance of the Government does not expect those institutions year. beyond reproach to actually prove their exemption statements. M r Brian Burke: We are talking about how you spend it, not how many limes you spend it. Sir CHARLES COURT: I know the commissioner, and I know his intention. The Sir CHARLES COURT: I am surprised that commissioner would be the last person to submit the Leader of the Opposition falls for the three any reputable body to unnecessary investigation card trick as far as this matter is concerned. in these matters. However. I think members will I will just touch on one final point: We in agree, such a provision must be written into the Western Australia went as far as we could in legislation to cover the smart aleck who will take granting a rebate-a considerable one in a tight advantage of anything. A smart aleck could use budgetary situat ion-bearing in mind that in five charitable institutions if it suited his convenience. out of seven years we have granted some relief. It This was made very clear by the commissioner is not as though we have been inactive. Perhaps it and by me. The provision is not included to has not been enough, but we have granted relief. bedevil people; it is there as an absolute necessity. For that reason I feel that the Leader of the I assure members that the provision will be used Opposition would have considered we had not with the usual good sense that the commissioner done too badly in granting the relief that we have shows. Most people who have had dealings with granted. I hope he has comprehended my answers him will admit that they usually receive a to his proposition because it would not create a courteous and understanding approach. In the single extra apprenticeship. It may fluke one or days of probate duty he frequently had to deal two. with almost hardship cases and he did this with Mr Brian Burke: It may fluke one or two! great sensitivity. Similar problems have arisen in Sir CHARLES COURT: The point is that if regard to stamp duty from time to time. I think we are to get apprentices we will not get them the officers of the department do their jobs with with that sort of inducement or bait. We will do great sensitivity and good sense. I am sure that better by talking to the employers about their attitude will continue. responsibilities to their industries as well as to Question put and passed. themselves. We must try to ensure that the Bill read a second time. governing bodies of these industries and also the unions join with us. They have not been inactive in this field. In Committee Mr Brian Burke: It would relieve them of an iniquitous tax. The Chairman of Committees (Mr Clarke) in Sir CHARLES COURT: It seems rather odd the Chair: Sir Charles Court (Treasurer) in that we should have this proposition put forward charge of the Bill. to give a further rebate-a proposition which Clauses I and 2 put and passed. 4976 476[ASSEM BLY]

Clause 3: Section 3 amended- and their willingness to employ apprentices. It has Mr BRIAN BURKE: This proposed failed to grasp the precision which attaches to the amendment to clause 3 is the fulcrum about Opposition's proposal. We are not talking about which pivots the entire move for change made by some concession for decentralisation, some the Opposition in ibis legislation. I must say that concession which depends upon location; we are in that context, because it is the central thrust of talking about a concession which depends upon the change we are seeking. I am absolutely the employment of apprentices. We are talking amazed at the Government's attitude. It has about the definition of "apprentice" in this clause become clear that the Government does not and about apprentices' wages, which carry not intend to accept the amendments. It has become Only Some Moral compulsion but also legal clear also that the Treasurer has absolutely no compulsion. We say the Government is ignorant grasp of the precision with which the amendments of the precision we are attaching to the move. have been directed to the area of apprenticeship While the Treasurer has put forward opportunity. substantial arguments against concessions for We arc attempting to insert the necessary certain areas, particularly in respect of location definition in this clause to allow the matter we are and decentralisation, the same arguments cannot be used to relate proposing to proceed. The Treasurer was at great to a situation which is not analogous. pains, to say not one new apprenticeship would be created as a result of the proposed changes and I In the relief we are proposing, there is niot only was pleased to be able to take the opportunity a moral persuasion in the status Of the during his speech to have checked thc attitudes of approbation attaching to employers prepared to the Confederation of WA Industry. sign indentures for apprentices, but there is also a the definition we While the Treasurer was telling us that not one legal compulsion, by virtue of new apprenticeship would be created in the seek to include in clause 3, which involves an private sector, the Confederation of WA Industry apprentice signing a binding agreement to remain was welcoming the move the Opposition was with the employer for a certain period. making. While the Treasurer was telling us that The Treasurer's argument about smart alecks, not one new apprenticeship would be created, Mr and about not being able to tie down the Basil Atkinson from the Confederation of WA concessions we are proposing just will not wash. Industry-not a red under the bed Or a fellow Despite everything the Treasurer has said, it trflbeler-was saying that the private sector amounts to this: The Government refuses to take welcomes and supports any move to reduce the advantage of the opportunity to provide more incidence of payroll tax. While the Treasurer was apprenticeships: it cannot say proudly, "We now telling us that not one new apprenticeship would have more apprentices than ever before". The be created, Mr Atkinson was saying anything that Treasurer mentioned there were now more motor would result in reducing the tax must help vehicles on the road than ever before; that has to unemployment. So it is about time that business do with the natural passage of time, not with and this Government got their act together policies pursued by his Government. The because they are saying different things, not at Treasurer also said, "We are not going to rest on different times, but at the same time. our laurels. We do not see the need for more apprentices". In fact, at one stage the Treasurer The Opposition has every right to be sceptical implied that he believed more apprenticeships about the Treasurer's statements when out of could not be provided. hand he rejects a proposal that will not cost a lot of money, but will boost apprenticeships in this Sir Charles Court: I did not say that. State, conservatively, by 600 and will also relieve Mr BRIAN BURKE: He said that, because of the burden of what the Treasurer himself has the legal requirements relating to the balance of termed an inequitable tax. How can the apprentices to tradesmen, he very much doubted Opposition be expected to accept the bona fides of whether there would be room for more a Government that is so out of tune with the apprentices. economic management policies it pretends to pursue as to contradict so vividly at the same time Mr I.EF. Taylor: He is out of touch. within the space of such a short period, the Mr BRIAN BURKE: He is almost out of the statements of the Confederation of WA Industry? State when one considers the Treasurer has This Government, by its rejection of the contradicted people like Basil Atkinson. Opposition's proposal, has proved itself to be The Opposition has every right to be upset and unimaginative and to have less than a worth-while disturbed at the Treasurer's refusal. HeI would at regard to the character of employers in this State least say of a scheme chat involved the [Wednesday, 28 October 19811 474977 expenditure, "I think it is worth a chance, so I Mr 1. F. TAYLOR: The proposed increase in will try it, because the rewards are great. We will the basic exemption to $102 000 will not provide invest our money in the young people of the any real incentive or lead to the provision of State". significant employment opportunities, especially Mr SHALDERS: No-one would argue about in the area of skilled workers for development the merit of the Opposition's desire to see more projects, or for unemployed people. young people employed and a reduction in the The member for Murray said the amendment number currently unemployed. However, inherent to be moved by the Leader of the Opposition in any proposition put forward by the Opposition would create an unequal situation. The point must be a basis of equality. In my opinion, the missed by the honourable member is that the scheme put forward by the Leader of the Opposition seeks to provide for people who are Opposition does not provide such equality. willing to make a commitment towards their Let us take the example of a couple of small, apprentices, rather than simply employ young metal-working firms which manufacture and erect people to erect patios, or some similar relatively patios. One firm might employ two or three unskilled job. We are talking about employers apprentices and be granted a pay-roll tax who have an apprentice-training programme and concession in the manner outlined by the Leader who are prepared to bear the cost of employing of the Opposition. apprentices and of putting them through school in Mr Brian Burke: I do not think you are aware order to ensure they become trained tradesmen in of the lower exemption limits. our community. Mr SHALDERS: I am talking about firms I am astounded that the Treasurer is so out of which currently pay paymroll tax. The other firm touch with what is happening in this community might employ two or three juniors, who erect that he should say there was no way in which the those patios. As there is no junior wage in the Government would support the amendment to be metal workers' award, the employer m ust pay moved by the Opposition, when even the those juniors the full adult wage. He also might Confederation of WA Industry has indicated its employ a 16-year-old girl to carry out clerical strong support for it. This is an indication of the duties in the office. way the Government intends to work and has Under the scheme put forward by the Leader of worked since it was elected. It takes no notice of the Opposition, the employer employing two or amendments moved by the Opposition, no matter three young apprentices would receive a pay-roll what merit they have. I do not believe any tax concession. It seems unfair to me that two member on any side of the Chamber could say employers could both provide jobs for three 16- that there is no merit in the amendments to be year-old or 17-year-old people and only one shall moved by the Opposition. receive a concession. I would not like to face an I support the proposed amendments. employer in my electorate who has created three employment opportunities for which he will The CHAIRMAN: Before I call on the receive no lessening of his pay-roll tax. Treasurer. I remind the Committee that no In my opinion, the scheme would work in an amendment has been moved. unequal manner and, on that basis, should be opposed. Points of Order The CHAIRMAN: The Leader of the Mr BRIAN BURKE: As you well understand, Opposition spoke in terms of his-presumably Mr Chairman, the problem is that if this intended-amendment; that was quite amendment fails, the consequential amendments understandable, and within his rights, because become irrelevant. I am keen not to use my frequently, members conclude their remarks by second speaking period simply to move the first moving their amendments. However, on this amendment. If I do so. will you adjudicate that I occasion, the Leader of the Opposition did not do have done so in terms of my second speaking that. period? The member for Murray then spoke about the The CHAIRMAN: My point is that whilst I proposed move by the Opposition. I was tempted thought you were speaking in relation to the at one point to ask him to relate his remarks more clause, as each subsequent speaker proceeded, it closely to clause 3. I ask members not to further seemed that we were moving further along that debate at too great a length an amendment which extended arm away from it. I would find no is anticipated, but which is not before the problems with the way the Leader of the Committee. Opposition spoke before: but if members move too 4978 4978[ASSEMBLY) far in discussing the proposed amendment, it something to reduce it, but we are not able to would not be central to our purpose. have it. Sir CHARLES COURT: I seek your guidance, Mr Brian Burke: The point I was making is Sir. This amendment has no real relevance to the that they believe it will increase employment. You clause in its original form. It brings in new don't. material altogether. Therefore, if it has not been Sir CHARLES COURT: That is arguable. I go moved, 1 do not know how we can discuss it. I can along with the thrust of the remarks I made. I do respond very briefly to the Leader of the not want my remarks distorted, as they have been Opposition's remarks; but bearing in mind that in the remarks of the Leader of the Opposition we have no amendment before us- and the member for Kalgoorlie. At no stage when The CHAIRMAN: I have been seeking to I was responding to the member for Kalgoorlie encourage the Committee towards some greater did I say that we were at our peak for apprentices. purpose and direction. In the light of what has I did say that there are practical limits, and happened so far, the Treasurer seeks to reply to people cannot be forced to have apprentices. the remarks of the Leader of the Opposition and I Some people cannot afford to have them. would be loath to rule him out of order. However, The member for Kalgoorlie does not know of I would like to remind the Committee as a whole some of the industry arrangements for apprentices that it must not wander any further along that chat have been made. For instance, in the building path. industry an arrangement was made because apprentices could not be employed on an Committee Resumied employer-by-employer basis. The Minister for Sir CHARLES COURT: I will do what I have Labour and Industry, by interjection, can never done before, and reply to an amendment probably confirm what I say. A pool of that has not been moved. apprentices was formed, and they were used It does not surprise me that MrT Atkinson and within the total industry. the Confederation of Western Australian Industry Mr 1. F. Taylor: You are supporting our responded as they have- argument. The same thing could happen again, surely. Quorum Sir CHARLES COURT: There is no Mr PEARCE: Mr Chairman, I draw your argument. If we could have more apprentices, we attention to the State of the Committee. would have them. The number has increased Mr O'Connor: A nice breach of the during the life of this Government. We have seen understanding we have about the tea break. an increase in the number of apprentices who Mr Pearce: I apologise. have gone through their probation and who have been registered. We are conscious of the fact that Bells rung and a quorum formed. we need more apprentices to meet the backlog in skilled tradesmen; so no-one should quote me as Comitnjee Resumed saying that there is no scope for more apprentices. Sir CHARLES COURT: I am not amazed or The practical limitations on the number of surprised that the Confederation of WA Industry apprentices include the number an employer is and Mr Atkinson responded as they are reported allowed to have according to the law, and the to have responded. I would have been amazed if capacity of any particular employer to accept they had not. It would be like asking them, responsibility for an apprentice, and to do justice "What would you rather have, a golden sovereign by him. or a dollar note?" That is how crazy it is because Mr Atkinson, according to the remarks of the Members should not forget the role of the Leader of the Opposition, would support anything unions and the more responsible employers who that reduced the incidence of pay-roll tax. Then are vigilant in making sure that the employers the Leader of the Opposition said something to who have the capacity do have apprentices. the effect that any relief in pay-roll tax could no Mr Barnett: What arc you going to do about doubt influence employment. the 40 being sacked by Australian Iron & Steel I remind the Committee that of course Mr Pty. Ltd.? Atkinson and the confederation would like to see Sir CHARLES COURT: We want more anything done that would influence the incidence apprentices. We also want the maximumn number of pay-roll tax. We all would love to have of trainees, cadets, and those types of employees. [Wednesday, 28 October 1981) 474979

That brings me to the question of persuasion. mentioned in the pay-roll tax concessions The Leader of the Opposition gave the impression proposed by the Government when it brought that the extra inducement was to persuade people down its Budget. I remind the Treasurer of that to have extra apprentices. The real persuasion is and that his presumption that our attempt to when the Minister, or his department, or selected amend this Bill is somehow an attempt to vote officers, or members of the industry approach against the Budget is just nonsense. individual employers and persuade them to accept That does not represent the shortest part of the their responsibilities. Most employers could make Treasurer's memory. We heard him say that it is out a case for apprentices not being an economic arguable that this sort of relief encourages proposition, but the more responsible employers employment. Is there any member on the accept apprentices as an insurance policy they pay Government side who failed to hear the Treasurer for the future supply of skilled tradesmen. say that? Is there any member opposite who Therefore, the question of persuasion is a real one. failed to hear the Treasurer maintain, in as many It is done on a person -to- person basis by the words, that the measures proposed by the industry or the confederation. In some cases, it IS Opposition would not encourage employment? done by the unions, who remind employers that Mr O'Connor. He said "not necessarily". they are not fulfilling their responsibilities. Mr BRIAN BURKE: At one stage the The member for Murray touched on a very Treasurer said it was arguable and at another pertinent point. Every time the Government has stage he said it would not promote the considered a special deduction, special rebate, or employment of one new apprentice, yet it was special concession for any group such as only a year ago he was saying the opposite. A apprentices or new employees, an important year ago he said, "it is a tax that is ant unfair consideration that has arisen is the necessity to burden and a disincentive to employment". How deal with it on a face. If that is not done, one is it that it has suddenly become arguable that it Finds anomalies and discrimination between the is a disincentive to employment? A year ago he various employers. The circumstances of the was saying it was a disincentive. The Treasurer employers are not always the same. If we are to cannot have it every which way. provide rebates of pay-roll tax, in my experience it is better to do it on a face because then one Mr Mensaros: Very desperate. knows that everybody will receive some benefit. It Mr BRIAN BURKE: The Treasurer's attempt eliminates the anomalies that arise when one to avoid the responsibility to provide as many becomes highly selective. apprenticeships as is possible will not be avoided 1 think I have answered all the points raised by simply by conveniently forgetting what he said a the Leader of the Opposition. If he intends year ago. As far as the Opposition is concerned it moving his amendment he will know by now that is time the Treasurer was pinned down on this and we will not support it. We do not think it will other matters, when he finds it convenient to say achieve what he thinks it will, quite apart from one thing at one time and within the space of a the fact that in moving the amendment to a year to say another thing in another place. money Bill he is moving to defeat the Budget. While speaking about pay-roll tax the Mr BRIAN BURKE: I move an amendment- Treasurer said, "A number of ideas have been canvassed to give immediate relief and to create Page 2, after line 4-Insert the following some incentives for firms to employ more people. new paragraph to stand as paragraph (a)- particularly the young". That is just what we are (a) by inserting after the definition of trying to do. The Treasurer, who a year ago "agent" two new definitions as thought it was a good idea, now suddenly fails to follows- find any merit in it whatsoever. If that does not "apprentice" has the meaning destroy his credibility on this issue, to be ascribed to that expression by contrasted firstly with the contradictory view of subsection ( I) of section 4 of the Basil Atkinson from the Confederation of Industrial Training Act. 1975, Western Australian Industry and to be contrasted "apprentices' wages" means secondly with his own views before this year taxable wages paid to an which he has not denied during this debate, I do apprentice or apprentices in the not know what would. State of Western Australia:, Where is the credibility attaching to the The Treasurer has developed a very short memory bleating about employment opportunities for the if he cannot remember back to 1979 when the young? I am perfectly prepared to stand up and Opposition suggested changes to the exemptions be counted as supporting this amendment. I am 4980 4980ASSEMBSLY] prepared to be convicted of at least trying, at apprentices to do so. The other amendments, minimal cost, to providc extra apprenticeships. I which are dependent on this amendment being am perfectly prepared to be counted amongst accepted, apply to apprentices as a those who say that we have not reached the limit whole-existing and new apprentics-and they of t he number of apprentices t hat are possible and do not apply only to new apprentices brought into we have not solved the employment of young the work force. I oppose the amendment, people and their desperate need for work. If the Mr COWAN: The Treasurer put forward a Treasurer wants to change his position from that new argument against this amendment: he earlier of a year ago. that is on his head. put forward two other arguments. No-one really Sir CHARLES COURT: The Leader of the knows what effect this scheme would have on the Opposition does himself no credit in trying to employment of apprentices, particularly new distort a situation and the remarks made by apprentices. I believe it is worth giving it a try. people like myself. H-e has come forward with a In the past the Government has offered certain proposition we have accepted in good faith as firms, particularly those involved in decentralised being an intention on the part of the Opposition to industries, incentives by way of exemptions from try to make a contribution to this particular pay-roll tax in the hope it would make life a little problem. We in turn have responded by giving easier for them and stimulate employment in him facts based on real life experience. country areas. Mr Pearce: Do not be so patronising. We have before us an attempt by the Sir CHARLES COURT: To suggest that I Opposition to do something to stimulate have changed my attitude on this matter is a employment by way of apprenticeship training for complete distortion. I have said consistently that people in the younger age group who are looking pay-roll tax is a disincentive to employment. for work. I see no reason that the concept Nevertheless, the amount which the Leader of the contained in the amendment should not, be Opposition is talking about is not the sort of attempted. It may be found that it does not work rebate, concession, or reduction we need for pay- and, if that is the ease, something can be done roll tax if we are to have a demonstrable incentive about it in the future-, but we should try the for employment. proposition first, rather than have somebody stand Unless I have misread the amendments they do up and say, "it is not going to work". not apply to new apprentices alone, but to The Treasurer said also that there was no apprentices-full stop. If we have a full quota of accounting in this definition for trainees and apprentices now the scheme proposed by the cadets, Surely if we give it a try on the basis that Opposition would not provide an incentive to we give relief to employers who take on employers to put on additional apprentices. In apprentices, if it is successful, it would not be itself the idea might appear to be a good thing, difficult to introduce an amendment to broaden and I did mention earlier that every time we have the definition to include wages paid to trainees a look at this problem we find the administrative and cadets in the exemption from payment of problems are tremendous and the scope for pay-roll tax. manipulation is quite limitless. Comment was made also about the fact that Mr Brian Burke: That is the only valid the Budget should be interpreted as a whale and argument you have put forward. I cannot see how we should not make any changes to it, but should you could oppose everyone bringing their number accept it as presented. It is arguable whether this of apprentices up to the maximum, which is what is a Budget Bill. Certainly it is introduced as we want. legislation which is associated with the Budget, Sir CHIARLES COURT: I want it understood but it is definitely not a Budget Bill. by the Leader of the Opposition's supporters and Last year the estimated assessment for pay-roll by the Committee generally that it is not tax was approximately $I11 million less than the something which is going to be specific. new, and actual revenue the Government obtained from it. special to those new apprentices put on. The The estimate this year may be a little more Leader of the Opposition gave the impression that precise and it may indeed be much closer to the the moment the scheme was announced there mark when we see the Budget presented in 1982. would be a rush of employers asking for new However. I would venture to suggest that, at the apprentices and we would get an extra 600 new rate at which employees are trying to maintain apprentices. This will not happen. There will still their race with inflation, again we will find the have to be the exhortations by various people to estimate is below the mark and any loss of have employers with the capacity to employ more revenue from the exemptions which have been IWednesday, 28 October 1981]198 4981 granted by this amendment will be mare than apprentices and we intend, if this amendment is compensated for by the actual revenue the passed, to allow them to have the opportunity to Government has gained from the process of do so. workers trying to catch up with inflation. I support the amendment before the I see no harm ai all in making an effort to Committee. create some incentive for employers, through this Amendment put and a division taken with the method, to employ more apprentices. I commend following result- the Government for having made a big effort to Ayes 20 introduce exemptions for small businesses which Mr Barnett Mr Hodge comprise something like 70 or 80 per cent-some Mr Beriram Mr Jamieson people even claim 90 per cent-of industry in Mr Bridge Mr T. H. Jones Western Australia. Mr Bryce Mr Melver Mr Brian Burke Mr Parker My personal view is other action can still be Mr Terry Burke Mr Pearce taken and we should perhaps be looking at the Mr Carr Mr Stephens Pay-roll Tax Act in an endeavour to reduce the Mr Cowan Mr 1. F. Taylor percentage of pay-roll tax payable;, but that is not Mr Evans Mr Wilson Mr Grill Mr Bateman the Act which is under consideration at the (Teller) moment. Noes 24 While I commend the Government for its effort Mr Blaikie Mr MacKinnon in exempting small business from paying pay-roll Sir Charles Court Mr Mensaros Mr Coyne Mr O'Connor tax, there is no reason at all that it should not Mrs Craig Mr Rushton extend that exemption to areas of employment Mr Crane M r Si bson which are particularly for younger people. Dr Dadour M r Spriggs Mr Grayden Mr Trethowan I support the amendment moved by the Leader Mr Grewar Mr Tubby of the Opposition. Mr Hassell Mr Wat Mr Herzl'el Mr Williams Mr 1. F. TAYLOR: It is a great pity that the Mr P. V. Jones Mr Young Treasurer of this State does not show the same Mr Laurance Mr Shalders flexibility of mind as does the member for (Telleir) Merredin. Perhaps that inflexibility is a reflection Pairs of the fact that the T reasurer has been here too Ayes Noes long. Mr Tonkin Mr Old Mr H-arman Mr Sodeman At the beginning of his speech. the Treasurer Mr Davies Mr Nanovich said he accepted that our amendment was moved Amendment thus negatived. in good faith. That was an amazing statement, bearing in mind that he then bucketed the Clause put and passed. amendment and reflected on employers in this Clauses 4 and 5 put and passed. State. The Treasurer has no faith whatsoever in Clause 6: Section 10 amended- those employers and the fact that we believe they will take on more apprentices if the amendment Mr BRIAN BURKE: I move an amendment- moved by the Leader of the Opposition is passed. Page 7, line 4-Insert after paragraph (b) It is easy for the Treasurer to put aside in lines t to 4 the following new paragraph to amendments moved by the Opposition. He has the stand as paragraph ()- numbers and he does not even have to give the (c) by inserting at the end of subsection amendments serious consideration. We asked the (1) a new paragraph U) as Treasurer to give the amendments the follows- consideration they deserved and the sort of U) to apprentices in Western consideration which would enable the young Australia by an employer or people of this State to have additional designated group employer in employment opportunities. receipt of any moneys The Treasurer mentioned that the Bill does not whatsoever from the apply to new apprentices. Of course it does not: it Commonwealth Government applies to employers who employ apprentices at under or in relation to the the moment and employers who have shown a Commonwealth/State Special willingness to take on people and train them for Trade Training Programme as jobs which are needed in our community. It is it is constituted from time to those employers we want to take on new time; and 4982 4982[ASSEMBLY)

I gave the Treasurer some notice of this Many representations have been made to this amendment. It seems to be a self-evident truth Government and others, but always it has been that if the Treasurer during previous debate on considered desirable or necessary to maintain the this matter complained of the Commonwealth's position. taxing incentives that his Government provides in The point made by the Leader of the this State, he should be perfectly happy to accept Opposition is understood thoroughly, but I will not tax incentives that his Government should not enter into a long discourse about it. It is to this State by the Commonwealth. provided something else to be taken into consideration in Simply, this amendment aims to do just that. conjunction with the original proposition of the The cost in a full year would be $44 000, which Opposition; however, the Government cannot would not send us broke. We seek to heighten the accept the amendment. effectiveness of the funds provided specifically and precisely by the Commonwealth to assist in Amendment put and negatived. the employment of apprentices. We say it is not Clause put and passed. legitimate for pay-roll tax to be applied to those Clauses 7 to 24 put and passed. funds. To do so is contrary to the spirit of the funding arrangements of the Commonwealth; to Title put and passed. the spirit of the Treasurer's stated position and his complaint that all his assistance schemes do. in Report providing relief in certain areas, is to allow the Bill reported, without amendment, and the Commonwealth to tax that relief;, and to the report adopted. morality of attempting to maximise the employment of apprentices in this State. Third Reading We do not expect the Treasurer to accept this SIR CHARLES COURT (Nedlands- amendment. His opposition to our proposition has Treasurer) [4.25 p.m.]: I move- been defined very clearly, but we draw to the That the Bill be now read a third time. attention of the public the fact that the contradiction exists, and, in the face of the MR BRIAN BURKE (Balcatta-Leader of the Treasurer's attitude, it will persist. Opposition) [4.26 p.m.]: I rise simply to say that the Opposition is very disappointed by the Why should the State tax funds made available Government's attitude. The member for to promote the by the Commonwealth Merredin, the Leader of the National Party, said employment of apprentices? it all when he said that at least the scheme Sir CHARLES COURT: As the Leader of the proposed and the changes outlined are worth a Opposition presumed, the Government opposes chance at success-they are worth trying. They the amendment. No good reason exists for the would not cost the world and promise at least amendment. We are not talking about an amount some potential to help solve a difficult problem. that could be regarded as an incentive. In the words of the Leader of the Opposition, the We are very disappointed that the Government amount is very small, but that is not what is at has not seen fit at least for 12 months to give the issue. proposals a chance to work or fail. There are a number of Commonwealth Question put and passed. schems-the list is not exhaustive-such as Bill read a third time and transmitted to the CRAFT, the Commonwealth Rebate Apprentice Council. Full-time Training scheme; SYETP, the Special Youth Employment Training programme; NEAT, STAMP AMENDMENT BILL the National Employment and Training scheme; and others. Second Reading Mr Brian Burke: There is one other-new Debate resumed from 15 October. federalism. It is a fairly interesting one. MR BRIAN BURKE (Balcatta-Leader of the Sir CHARLES COURT: One must bear in Opposition) (4.28 p.m.]: The changes to stamp mind the amount of tax imposed as a percentage duty announced by the Treasurer during the of pay-roll tax. It is very small indeed compared Budget debate are fairly complex. It is difficult to with the amount the Commonwealth rips off us explain them in detail without referring to copious when we give concessions to people for pay-roll notes, but in my mind the important points that tax, and provide interest rebates, freight rebates, emerge from the announcement made by the and so on. Treasurer are as I will outline them. [Wednesday, 28 October 19811 484983

The proposed increase in stamp duty is component is stamp duty on conveyances; for estimated to net the Government $13 million in example, under existing rates, the stamp duty 1981-82, and in excess of $26 million in a full charged on a $35 000 purchase and borrowing, Financial year. This means that the total revenue amounts to $500 and $45 respectively. from stamp duty in 1981-82 is estimated to The -average first home buyer, under the increase by more than $35.4 million, or 35.5 per Government's concessional scheme, will receive a cent compared with the actual collections in 1980- rebate of between $50 and $62.50, based on an 8 1. The additional revenue in a full financial year average home loan of $30 000 to $35 000. The is more than three times greater than the concession extended by the Government in its additional revenue to be obtained from increases approach to prospective home buyers will not take in mineral royalties. That is what we see as one of the world by storm. It will not solve the housing the explanations-as the kernel, the essence, and problems-the problem of high interest rates and the crux-of the Government's position in respect the problem of the increased deposit gap which is of its priorities. rapidly disenfranchising many potential home The measures contained in this Bill propose buyers. increases in stamp duty on a wide range of items. If the value of purchase is taken as the measure For example, the rate of duty on all credit and of the family's capacity to pay, it can be seen that rental transactions will be increased by 35 per the value of the rebate is lowest for those who cent, and that duty will raise an additional $3.7 need it. In addition, the rebate does nothing to million in a Cull Financial year. The rate of duty assist Families who are struggling to meet the on cheques and other bills of exchange not escalating monthly repayments resulting from chargeable ad valorem will be increased by 25 per rising interest rates. cent, from 8c to t0e each, to raise an additional In addition to the rebate proposed by the $1.7 million in a full financial year. Government, the Opposition suggests a further The rate of duty for conveyances of properties adjustment to provide some real concession and above the value of $50 000 will be increased to real relief, with minimal cost to the Gove~rnment. raise an additional $11.8 million in a full financial I am talking about the concession or relief that yea r. The Bill proposes concessions for will cost even less than that which was proposed conveyances of houses and small businesses below in the amendment to the pay-roll tax legislation the value of $50 000. The rate of duty ont motor we have just considered. vehicle licence transfers will be increased by 100 We believe that stamp duty payment should be per cent from 75c to $1.50 of each $100 of value, made in equal instalments over Five years and this and that will raise an additional $8.7 million in a would have the result of reducing the intitial full financial year. The rate of duty chargeable on impact oF the cost of stamp duty. We also have leases and agreements is to be increased to raise proposed the introduction of a family allowance an additional $500 000 in a full financial year. conversion scheme and this is a scheme we have Of particular interest to the Opposition are the canvassed at length. The Government has not stamp duty concessions on the purchase of homes been able to answer its failure to at least study in to be used as the principal residence and to buyers detail-and reject if that is its position-the need of small businesses. The Opposition concedes that for a scheme such as wec have put forward, the stamp duty concessions for home buyers and In this second reading debate today, I wish to the buyers of small businesses is a move in the outline the Opposition's intention to move to right direction. The assistance to prospective amend this legislation to provide real relief with a small business proprietors is welcomed by the deferred stamp duty payment scheme. When Opposition. formulating its concessions, the Government had However, the concession for the home buyer is the opportunity to provide a significant form of smrall; it is a token gesture and moreover relief, to potential home buyers, from the inadequate to bridge the deposit gap for families spiralling Costs they face. it is important to who wish to own their own home. The total recognise the fact that Western Australia has combined benefit to the small business sector and lagged behind other Australian States in the to the home buyers is estimated to be $1.5 million provision of some form of stamp duty concession in 198 1-82 and $2.75 in a full financial year. for home buyers. We are not keeping pace with Stamp duty on the purchase of a home is on thc the national trend that has been set in other sale-what is, the conveyance of the house and States. land-and on the value of moneys borrowed for We make no apology for the fact that the the purchase. By far the most significant scheme we are proposing is one which has been 4984 4984[ASSEMBLY] operating in New South Wales for several years. deductions and that his Government has an It has been operating very successfully, at little inability to create employment, despite his cost to the Government and to great advantage to previous public statement. However, I am not people purchasing homes. prepared to concede that the Treasurer can say The Opposition intends to amend the proposed that this change will not be of assistance to home section 75AE contained in clause 3 of the Bill to buyers and will not provide that assistance at a provide for the arrangement of a deferred stamp minimal cost. duty payment scheme. The amendment proposes I give notice that during the Committee stage I to enable eligible purchasers to buy a house which will be moving to amend this Bill to ensure that is to be used as a principal place of residence, and the deferred stamp duty payment scheme outlined to pay the stamp duty, at the reduced rate by the Opposition and which has been operating proposed by the Government and attached to the successfully in other parts of this country, can at purchase, in five interest-free instalments over least start to make up the ground that we are ive years. losing in respect of those avenues and concessions The effect of the amendment on purchases for provided to Australians in other States who are the average home buyer will be to reduce the having difficulty with rising interest rates and initial outlay for stamp duty from the existing with the prospect of purchasing their own home. duty payable of $500 to $87.50. That is a saving MR 1. F. TAYLOR (Kalgoorlie) [4.40 p.m.]: of more than $430 in the initial outlay. Traditionally, stamp duty has been a tax on In essence, what we are saying is that the documents rather than on transactions. For Government is not to be denied its stamp duty; it example, stamp duty was payable on contracts of is simply to be paid that duty in five interest-free sale and mortgage documents. However, in recent equal instalments over five years. it is to be paid years provisions have been introduced into this that duty at the reduced rate which is proposed by Act and into the stamp duty legislation of most of the Treasurer in his Budget. the States of Australia levying stamp duties on credit and rental transactions rather than on I have already mentioned the effect of the documents themselves. revenue-raising aspects of the stamp duty decision of the Government. However, we have taken time This trend is accelerated in this Bill with stamp to emphasise that we are interested in home duty increased on a wide range of items. The rate buyers and prospective purchasers. We have taken of duty charged 'in. -all credit and rental the time to emphasise the amendment which we transactions has been increased by 35 per cent. think will make this piece of legislation of much The rate of duty on cheques and other bills of greater benefit to people who are, at the present exchange has been increased by 25 per cent. The time, by the Government's own admission, being rate of duty on the conveyancing of properties severely disadvantaged by the economic climate above a value of $50000 will be increased that has been created by the Fraser Government's substantially, as will the stamp duty on motor monetarist theories and policies. vehicle licence transfers which has doubled from 75c to $1.50 per $100. We are seeking to save the average home buyer $437.50 at the time of his or her initial purchase The rate of duty on leases and lease agreements by simply saying that the Government is to has been increased also, whereas the stamp duty receive its money in five equal instalments over exemption for credit unions in credit and rental Five years and that stamp duty is to be calculated transactions has been lifted. on the reduced rate payable under the Apart from the need to raise more revenue, it Government's proposal. That is not an earth- appears certain that a number of the changes of shattering change and it is not something which rates of duty in this Bill can be traced back to the will send the Government into liquidation. It is a Grants Commission exercise. I believe it would be move the Government had the chance to correct to say that the Grants 'Commission was implement at the time of its presentation of the obliquely critical of this Government's revenue- Budget. However, it is a change the Government raising efforts in respect of stamp duty. In chose not to implement. particular the commission was critical of the I do not know whether it is this Government's stamp duty in respect of motor vehicle licences position that every proposal put forward by the where the maximum tax was $150. Opposition should be rejected simply on a At that time an ordinary person who purchased political basis; I hope that is not the case. I am a Holden motorcar for, say, $10 000, paid a motor prepared to concede that the Treasurer may be vehicle licence fee of $75. The purchaser of a inflexible in his attitude towards pay-roll tax Mercedes motorcar at a cost of $50 000 would [Wednesday, 28 October 1981]198 4985 have paid $150 in duty at that time. So the finance. Western Australia has lagged behind the Government was effectively letting the rich off other States in giving contcessions in this area. the hook and it was not taxing in accordance with Sir Charles Court: Which area is that? the capacity to pay. Of course, it was also losing Mr 1. F. TAYLOR: In the area of stamp duty substantial amounts of revenue. It is good to see and conveyancing costs for home buyers. Alt the that that problem will be alleviated as a result of States, apart from Western Australia, were giving the provisions in this Bill. real concessions in this area and it is only now The Opposition believes that the concessions that the Government has considered such a offered to the home buyer and to small businesses concession. are not realistic, but at least they are a move in Sir Charles Court: Are you sure of that? the right direction. Mr 1. F. TAYLOR: Yes. Stamp duty itself has increased by Sir Charles Court: I would like you to itemise approximately 123 per cent between 1977-78 and them. the estimate for 1981-82. The Opposition is concerned that the Government is not aware that Mr 1. F. TAYLOR: Until the introduction of people moving into new houses are particularly the Bill before us, Western Australia was the only concerned about front end costs. These are the State which did not give these concessions. costs that must be paid to enable people to move However, the Government now intends to grant into a house. When purchasing a house in which some small concession to home buyers in this the owners are to live-a place of principal State. residence-the front end costs include the The amendment to be moved by the Opposition mortgage fees, legal fees, and stamp duty both on in Committee will give real benefits to home the mortgage and on the conveyancing itself, buyers in the community. It will enable an eligible Additional costs are involved with the connection purchaser of a ho.me which is to be used as a of water and electricity supplies, and, of course, principal place of residence to pay a reduced rate due to the provisions of the Federal Budget, a of stamp duty. home owner must pay increased sales tax on such Our amendment will mean that the stamp duty things as furniture and household goods. The sales attaching to the purchase of a home may be paid tax on most of these items will be double what it by the home buyer in five equal instalments over was last year. ive years, and the instalments will be interest free. The effect of this amendment is such that, Sometimes people do not take these costs into given the value of purchase of a place of principal account when they are saving for a deposit on a residence at $50 000, under the legislation as it new home. It is these costs that make it very exists at the moment, the initial outlay for a home difficult for people to move into a new home in buyer in terms of stamp duty would be 5725. this day and age. Most people buying a new home Under the amending provision introduced by the are short of cash, and they are not really aware Government, the initial outlay would be $625.40. that these front end costs must be met. Under the Labor Party's deferred payment The Government concession will not be of any scheme, the initial outlay would be $125-an great assistance in helping people overcome this immediate saving of $500 to the home buyer. This front end cash crisis. People in the community sum of money would be of great importance to must face other crises when they purchase homes home purchasers at a time when they really need today, and one of these is the rapid increase in it. interest rates. Savings bank interest rates on home The real cost to revenue of this amendment can mortgages have risen from 9.5 per cent in be looked at in terms of the earnings foregone by February 1980 to 12.5 per cent. At the same time the Government-and, therefore, only an imputed there is a desperate shortage of home finance. I cost-and will be in the vicinity of $500000 a believe that shortage is related to a large degree year. The cost in terms of revenue foregone-and to the pressures being put on the financial that is revenue collected at later stages over the institutions by borrowers in the resource area. five-year period-would be in the vicinity of $3 or The amendment foreshadowed by the Leader of $4 million in the first place. We believe that the the Opposition will help home buyers bridge the amendment to be moved by the Leader of the deposit gap by giving real assistance at this front Opposition would benefit home buyers and small end. The deposit gap is created because earnings business men. have not kept pace with the rate of interest -and Mr MacKininon: Where would you pick up the interest costs, and, therefore, the cost of mortgage extra $3 or $4 million? 4986 4986[ASSEMBLY]

Mr 1. F. TAYLOR: We would pick up the an -approach from me that he consider, with some extra $3 or $4 million by the growth in stamp sympathy, the case of persons, particularly young duty collected by the Government. Last year the people, who were endeavouring to establish their Government collected about $10 million more .own homes. I suggested relief in the stamp duty; than it expected to collect. That figure is related and my proposition at that stage was that to the growth in the value of homes, and the consideration be given to the inclusion of a Honorary Minister would be aware that the value hardship clause in the Stamp Act. I did not have of homes in this community has increased rapidly much hope that I would receive a positive over the last few years. We would expect that the response to that suggeston from the Treasurer, increase in stamp duty collected, because of the although it was put to him sincerely and increase in the value of home purchases, would be genuinely. I made the suggestion because of the more than sufficient to cover the cost of revenue number of cases of which I was personally aware. foregone. Young families were debarred from purchasing A few weeks ago the Premier was very insistent their first homes simply because of the sums in telling us that the stamp duty concession involved in the initial payments. offered to resource development in this State was I do not suppose the sum of $500 or $600 not a cost to the State, but that it was, in fact, means very much to people like the Treasurer; but revenue foregone. The amendment to be moved to young families, struggling on a low or medium by the Opposition is not very different from the income, it is a very stamp duty provisions included in the agreement significant amount, especially Acts brought forward by the Government over when they are facing up to increasing some time. I intend to support the foreshadowed Government charges and taxes in a dual assault amendment. by the Commonwealth Government and the State Government on the living standards and (Dianella) [4.48 p.m.]: I would MR WILSON conditions of ordinary people. It is a very like to make a few comments about this Bill. The significant amount of money; and it is an Government has chosen this option to frame its impossible amount of money for them to find. It revenue-one option amongst a number which represents an insurmountable obstacle to people would have been open to the Government. It is in that situation. In terms of having access to significant that to some degree the Government has come clean about what has been to this point, sufficient finance, it is a life and death issue for a hidden factor in its revenue sources. When we young people. examined the situation earlier this year. after only When I wrote the letter to which I referred, the a few months of the financial year had passed, it Treasurer's response was one with which we had was clear that considerable underestimates had become familiar, until his recent announcement. been involved in the previous year's Budget. There He responded by telling me- were considerable underestimates of revenue for Quite apart from the relatively high cost of pay-roll tax, stamp duty, territorial revenue, and administering such a scheme, the estimated some lesser charges and taxes. In fact, as the loss to revenue could be considerable as member for Kalgoorlie has indicated, it is true, many persons would suffer some degree of that in the previous financial year stamp duty hardship when purchasing a home. revenue in Western Australia increased at double the rate of inflation. The Government of Western I regret that the Government is unable, in Australia had a bonanza in terms of its the present financial climate, to favourably underestimate of stamp duty revenue. consider your proposal to include a hardship provision in the Stamp Act, or for that I am not saying that underestimate of revenue matter, in any other taxing legislation. was done deliberately; but the underestimate was so great that it is hard to believe the Government As I say, in the interim the Treasurer seems to was not aware of a more accurate estimate than it have softened his heart on that issue. He seems to appeared to have been in its forecast in the have found it within the means of the Government previous Budget. to recognise the need for some sort of relief for In seeking to introduce concessions on the people in this situation. purchase of homes to be used as the principal Of course, the degree of relief provided in this residence, the Treasurer seems to have undergone amendment to the Stamp Act is not sufficient. It something of a conversion. I do not know whether is an across-the-board figure, and a minimal one. that is a very regular occurrence on the It is not the sort of figure that will make a Treasurer's part; but I will refer to a letter that he significant difference to the families I have wrote to me on 14 November 1980 in response to mentioned. [Wednesday, 28 October 1981]198 4987

The sum of $100ois merely a token gesture. It is amendment, he will explain whether he intends a sugar coating on the pill of the proposed this to apply to all dwellings. As I read his increases. We should not fail to recognise that one amendment, it means that it would apply to all of the factors of the proposed increases is a dwellings, whether they Cost $40000 or $I proposal to increase the revenue impost as far as million. However, be that as it may, it is the rental agreements are concerned. That may have principle I am considering at the moment. an increased bearing on a greater number of It must be realised that, in preparing a Budget, people, because we have heard only recently the the Government has to look at the total picture predictions that private rentals are spiralling and decide how far it can and cannot go. There already, and that they are likely to increase by as are a number of actions it would like to take, but much as 50 per cent by the end of next year. economic realism eventually dictates the final In that, we see the prospect of another bonanza parameters within which one brings down one's for the Government in terms of the increases Budget. It is all very well for the Opposition or affecting the ordinary people, along with the other anyone else to pick at this and that and say increases to which I referred earlier. The people certain amendments would not cost very much whose incomes are not keeping pace with those and to ask why we do not accede to their requests. sorts of increases will be in a difficult position. However, the Government has to look at many Certainly, with the kinds of increases being areas in which it is possible to impose lower tax- imposed-increases in interest rates on home raising measures or hopefully reduce expenditure, mortgages and terrifying increases with regard to and it is this sort of considered judgment that is private rentals-there will be problems. represented in the Budget and supporting Bills. We arc pleased that the Treasurer has seen the When people seek to register their properties, light, albeit only a narrow glint of light, in respect they want to obtain registration as quickly as of what is being proposed in this Bill. We would possible. The property must be registered have preferred more than a token recognition, as forthwith, otherwise all sorts of disadvantages this measure proposes, for those people facing the could be experienced by the owner. The position is difficulties outlined. We would have preferred the axiomatic and it would be understood by all. Government to give realistic relief along the lines In the propostion put forward by the already mentioned by the Leader of the Opposition, it is saying that the title should be Opposition for a substantial decrease in the initial registered and the transfer should take place, but costs facing young couples particularly, whose four-fifths of the stamp duty applying on a hope of Finding the initial finance is virtually an dweling-I assume that applies to a $4 million or impossible task. a $50 000 one- SIR CHARLES COURT (Nedlands- Mr Brian Burke: You have not read the Treasurer) [4.58 p.m.). I thank members of the amendment. Opposition for their support of the Bill. I Sir CHARLES COURT: I hope the Leader of appreciate the advance notice I have been given of the Opposition will explain the amendment, the amendments proposed by the Leader of the because I have been trying to read it into the Bill. Opposition. I have been able to look at the matter only during As has been mentioned quite fairly by the the time the Leader of the Opposition was member for Kalgoorlie, Western Australia has speaking and it appeared to me it was intended to been under scrutiny, and it has been penalised by embrace all dwellings. Perhaps while the Leader the Grants Commission because it was the low of the Opposition is explaining the matter, I can stamp duty State. With the new rates that have carry out further research on the parent Act and been applied, we would still have the lowest stamp the Bill before us. duty, with the exception of Queensland. I think I point out the administrative problems which some parts of the stamp duty in Queensland would be experienced as a result of the might be a little lower than ours, but I could not proposition put forward by the Opposition would be precise on that. Nevertheless, overall, we would be almost impossible to solve. I understand a not be out of kilter with the other States. In most scheme of this kind operates in New South Wales cases, our stamp duty rates would be better than and it has caused a great deal of trouble. I do not those applying in the other States. have first hand information on this scheme- I The suggestion that home buyers be given five have only secondhand information-therefore, it years to pay their stamp duty is an intriguing one, may not be absolutely correct. However, in broad although it would not be a practical one. I hope principle, my understanding is that, in New South that when the Leader of the Opposition moves his Wales, the Rural and Industries Bank is the 4988 4988ASSEMBLY] medium through which the revenue is reimbursed from houses which cost $30 000 to those which and the problem is thrown over to the bank to would cost between $50 000 and $60 000, or were collect the four-ifths, or whatever it is, that has transferred and were returning to the to be collected. metropolitan area to start residency all over I believe a procedure such as that put forward again. by the Opposition would cause a great deal of We see a number of practical difficulties in the trouble, and a great deal of administrative effort proposition put forward by the Opposition and we and money would be involved in chasing up the cannot accept it. extra amounts. A person has to be given a title, Question put and passed. otherwise he would be embarrassed when Bill read a second time. applying for finance from a building society, bank, or some other quarter. I realise we could In Committeec arrive at some sort of statutory arrangement and a charge could be entered against the title for the The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Mr amount unpaid; but that, in itself, would be to the Crane) in the Chair; Sir Charles Court great disadvantage of the person who was buying (Treasurer) in charge of the Bill. the property. Clauses I and 2 put and passed. I repeat that we are being penalised because we Clause 3: Sections 75AE and 75AF inserted- are a low stamp duty State. I am not aware of the Mr BRIAN BURKE: Let me hasten firstly to suggestion by the Opposition that every other clarify the position in the Treasurer's mind, State except WA has the sort of concession it has although I cannot see how he could have been proposed. confused by the proposed amendment and could Mr Brian Burke: I did not say that. believe it would apply to homes costing $4 Sir CHARLES COURT: I was referring to the million, because quite simply we seek to impose remarks made by the member for Kalgoorlie and our change on the change foreshadowed by the I ask him to be specific about his contention, Treasurer in the Budget. He set the parameters of because the position he put forward was different that change by his own statements and decisions from my understanding of the matter. contained in the Budget; so we make it clear that We have made this provision apply to all home the concession we are proposing applies only buyers, bearing in mind it is only the lower pri ced within the framework of the concession the homes which obtain the benefit from it. However, Treasurer provided himself. Therefore, the it applies to all, because on many occasions I have integrity of the proposition cannot be impugned considered propositions designed to relieve first on that basis. home buyers of some of the costs involved and In support of the proposed amendment, I point frequently problems arise in their translation. out its cost has been calculated carefully by us at Indeed. the first proposition we considered in about $.4 million in 1981-82 and between $.88 relation to the Budget concerned the first home million and $.96 million in a full financial year. buyer. However, we found the position could be As far as the operation in New South Wales is extremely anomalous and we abandoned it. I am concerned, it is not my understanding that the sure the reasons for that are obvious. For Treasurer's impression is correct and that the example, a young couple, living and working in operation of this deferred stamp duty payment the metropolitan area, might buy a house. The scheme has occasioned any unnecessary hindrance husband could work for a bank and he could be to the practical and efficient operation of the promoted and sent to a country town. He might State bank there. It is certainly not my sell his house and live in a bank or company house understanding, and I do not think the Treasurer in the country. When he was promoted further, he could believe, that people would run into major might return to the city and, believing he had difficulties in ensuring that the title was not the greater permanency, he might decide to buy a subject of dealing as a result of unpaid stamp home, It would not be his first home, so he would duty. It is simply a matter of a caveat being be disqualified under some of the propositions I placed on the title requiring that, before there have considered. could be any dealing, the unpaid stamp duty, if In view of the fact that the concession applies there was any, must be paid. to the lower priced homes and not to the $4 There is a proper explanation for all the points million homes, we felt it should relate to any raised by the Treasurer. Firstly, the proposed home, because most of the people involved would amendment will not apply to any purchase that be those who were either upgrading their homes exceeds the value to which the concession [Wednesday, 28 October 1981] 484989 proposed by the Treasurer himself in his Budget (b) where the property to which the would apply. Secondly, illis not our understanding instrument of conveyance or that the scheme has operated less than transfer relates includes a satisfactorily in New South Wales and I cannot dwellinghouse, to be payable by 5 understand that. had that been the case, that equal annual instalments Government would have continued the scheme for commencing on the date upon approximately five years now. Thirdly, the which the duty would otherwise he Treasurer's predicted obstacles to dealing on the payable in full. title as a result of the changes proposed by the Sir CHARLES COURT: I have made clear the Opposition simply have no substance, because a Government's attitude to the amendment and I caveat can be lodged to prevent dealings until any have set out the reasons for it. I do not believe I unpaid part of the stamp duty is paid. The essence need to elaborate On the position. The of the change is not contained in any of the Government has gone as far as it is prepared to go objections outlined by the Treasurer. and has done as much as it is able to do in this What is contained in the change is a genuine Budget as far as scamp duty Matters are effort to help people overcome the burdens which concerned. are being imposed on them with increasing I repeat we are one of the lowest, if not the rapidity and with increasing onus as a result of lowest, stamp duty State and we are under the economic policies being followed by this pressure from the Grants Commission in Treasurer's Federal counterpart. connection with that. I hope members do not We have explained that the Treasurer's overlook that matter, because we must have a concession to people purchasing homes amounts sense of responsibility in this regard. to approximately $60 on the average purchase. By We have shown a concern for people buying a simple adjustment costing less than $1 million homes, particularly in the lower price range, and in its most expensive year. the Opposition's that is as far as we should be expected to go on concession would amount to a saving of $437 on this occasion. the same purchase. Mr STEPHENS: The Leader Of the Opposition There is no justification for the Government's made out quite a sound case in advancing the opposing the proposed change on the ground that amendment and I should like to support it. its cost is burdensome or that it is not needed. Therefore, I cannot see why the Opposition is I realise the Government's position, but the unjustified in drawing from the Treasurer's amount of money involved is very small, based on position the inference that it is pure political the information provided by the Leader Of the cussedness that causes amendments put forward Opposition, and perhaps if the Government were sincerely and genuinely to be opposed when they to practise some economies, it might overcome pose no great strain on the State's finances and pars of the problem. One area in which economy when they promise real benefit. could be practised is the extravagance of having four more We admit that the benefit is not sufficient to members of Parliament. That proposition will cost approximately overcome the whole problem; but certainly a $300000 a year and it will be a continuing cost on an benefit of $437 is more significant than one of increasing basis, because of inflation. That is an $60 as proposed by the Treasurer. Therefore, the area in which the Government could economise, Treasurer cannot draw strength for his opposition from those two areas. The benefit is needed, it is as a result of which it would be able to give this not expensive, and, despite what the Treasurer sort of assistance and encouragement to home has said, the three minor objections he raised to owners who, in many instances, find it the amendment we intend to move are not of any exceedingly difficult to meet their commitments substance. when they take out their first loans. I move an amendment- Mr BRIAN BURKE: 1 rise briefly to indicate to the House that, if the Treasurer and his Page 2. lines 14 to 16-Delete all words Government think we, on this side of the after the word -conveyance- down to and Chamber, will desist from putting forward including the word "'Schedule" and substitute constructive and positive suggestions which we the following passage- believe will produce a more desirable situation or transfer- and which will benefit people in specific parts of (a) to be assessed in accordance with this State or in specific areas where hardships are item 4 (5) of that Schedule; and experienced, they are wrong. 4990 4990[ASSEMBLY]

If the Premier thinks that by constantly Mr 1. F. TAYLOR: In reply to comments made advancing arguments that do not have substance by the Premier on two occasions in this Chamber he can disguise his political stance from the tonight on the rate of stamp duty exemption in people of this State, then I hasten to point out to Western Australia and other States, I want to those in this Chamber and in Western Australia point out to the Premier that Grants Commission that we will be at pains to paint out consistently report No. 2, in table No. B4, gives stamp duties the Premier's attitude. as at 30 June 1980 for all States. It is interesting The point is that on two occasions today the to note from that that all States do in fact give Opposition has put forward sensible and sound exemptions or some form of credit to home buyers. I will read suggestions in relation to changes that will be of it for the Premier's information to put him on the track. It reads as follows- assistance and will not cost a great deal of money. On both occasions, the second more than the first, In New South Wales duty on a conveyance it is true, the Premier has railed to justify his opposition to those changes. I give notice to relating to the purchase of a first home with members of the Government that we will continue a-value not exceeding- the process by which we are putting forward constructive and positive suggestions, and I warn Here it says "$50 000", but quite recently the members of the Government that their continued Premier of New South Wales increased that to turning away from those positive pointers to the $75 000. To continue- direction in which we should be going will be seen by the electorate for what it is-plain political -may be made by interest-free instalments. cussedness and the failure and inflexibility of a For Victoria these rates apply only to Government to accept change that does not cost conveyances of real estate. Most other much and which promises to benefit people in dutiable documents are taxed at the rate of many parts of the State. either $5 or $7 each. In Queensland a rate of Sir CHARLES COURT: Briefly I respond to $1 per $100 or part applies to a conveyance the Leader of the Opposition. No-one has of property for the particular portion that is suggested that the Opposition should not make to be used as the principal place of residence, constructive or any other type of suggestions; in irrespective of the value of the property. The fact, that is the role of the Opposition. It has been residual portion of any property not to be done as long as I can remember when Bills of this kind are before the Chamber. There are plenty of used as the principal place of residence is recorded cases of my own, where the Opposition subject to duty at the higher-rate. In South has responded and conveyed to the Chamber and Australia duty on the purchase of the first the Government how I felt a tax could have been home is reduced by an amount equal to the imposed differently or a change in tax could have actual duty or the duty on a value of been done differently. That is fair and proper and $30 000, whichever is the lesser. In Tasmania I am not objecting to it at all. persons eligible for a Commonwealth Home Mr Brian Burke: How many of ours have been Savings Grant are also eligible for agreed to? concessions in the duty payable on the Sir CHARLES COURT: I think the score I purchase of the first home with a value not have at the time of the Hawke and Tonkin exceeding $50 000. Governments would be nil. Mr Young: I think I got nil too. It is quite clear that up to the time this Bill was Mr Brian Burke: Yours was nil on ability. introduced into this Chamber Western Australia Sir CHARLES COURT: There is nothing was in fact the only State that did not provide extraordinary about it. We are dealing with a some form of stamp duty relief for home buyers. Budget and Bills that are part of a Budget and I The amendment moved by the Leader of the do not think the Opposition, in its heart, would Opposition will give some real relief to home expect us to make these concessions, bearing in buyers at a time when it counts most, and that is mind that we have already made concessions and the time when they are moving into their house have not stayed flat-footed on the issue. We have and are short of ready cash. made concessions and it is a matter of judgment that the Government has gone as far as it can go or thinks it necessary to go on this occasion. Opposition members: Hear, hear! [Wednesday. 28 October 1981] 499199

Amendment put, and a division taken with the only one smoker and I am that smoker. I find following result- myself in the position of being totally in support Ayes 22 of the Government's planned increase in this Mr Barnett Mr 1-odge particular tax. I do not have any objection Mr Bertram Mr Jamieson whatsoever, and neither does the Opposition, to Mr Bridge Mr T. H. Jones what the Government intends to do in this Mr Bryce Mr Mclver Mr Brian Burke Mr Parker legislation. I am hopeful that I will cease to be a Mr Terry Burke Mr Pearce contributor to the Government's coffers through Mr Carr Mr Stephens this particular taxing measure, at least by the new Mr Cowan Mr A. D. Taylor Mr Davies Mr 1. F. Taylor year. Mr Evans Mr Wilson An Opposition member: Hear, hear! Mr Grill Mr Bateman Mr Blaikie: Determined to upset our Budget! Noes 25 Giving up smoking is one of the easiest things in Mr Blaikie Mr Mensaros the world to do. Mr Clarko Mr O'Connor Sir Charles Court Mr Old Mr BRIAN BURKE: The Government will not Mr Coyne Mr Rushton accuse me of sabotaging its Budget and be forced Mrs Craig M r Si bson to bring in a supplementary Budget due to loss of Dr Dadour M rSpriggs Mr Grayden M rTretbhowan revenue. Mr Orewar Mr Tubby Mr Blaikie: I knew it was heavy, but I didn't Mr Hassell Mr Watt Mr Herzfeld Mr Williams think it was that bad. Mr P. V. Jones Mr Young Mr BRIAN BURKE: At the same time I do Mr Laurance M r Shalders Mr MacKinnon want to make one point that has been made Pairs publicly by the shadow Minister for Health and Ayes Noes that is to seek the position of and some form of M r Tonkin Mr Sodemnan expression from the Government about its Mr Harman Mr Nanovich commitment to smoker education or anti-smoker Amendment thus negatived. education, if that is the more appropriate term. Clause put and passed. Mr Sibson: Perhaps we should start on you. Clauses 4 to 9 put and passed. Mr Pearce: He has moved into the Minister for Title put and passed. Education's chair. Report Mr BRIAN BURKE: I can assure the member for Bunbury that the Government has no need to Bill reported, without amendment, and the begin its educational programmes on me in report adopted. respect of smoking. It does have need to educate Third Reading me as to some of the financial gymnastics that it Bill read a third time, on motion by Sir Charles performs so thoroughly, competently, and Court (Treasurer), and transmitted to the dazzlingly from time to time, but I am perfectly Council. convinced of the undesirability of smoking and, as I have said. I hope to join the ranks of the non- BILLS (2): MESSAGES tobacco tax paying public at least in the new year. Messages from the Governor received and read' It will be a case of the Opposition's being entirely recommending appropriations for the purposes of united and I hope the Premier will not see it as a the following Bills- major disturbance to his Budget or as a case of regimentation on the part of the Opposition. I. Prisons Bill. However, I seek the assurances that have been 2. Loan Bill. very efficiently sought by the shadow Minister for Health, the member for Melville, in the BUSINESS FRANCHISE (TOBACCO) commitment or lack of AMENDMENT BILL (No. 2) Government's commitment publicly so far to the use of some of Second Reading its revenue, perhaps from this measure, towards Debate resumed from t15October. education programmes aimed at preventing young MR BRIAN BURKE (Balcatta-Leader of the people from being enticed into the habit the Opposition) 15.26 p.m.): Members will be pleased Leader of the Opposition is certainly about to to know that on this side of the House there is attempt to abandon. We support the Bill. 4992 4992ASS EM BLY]

MR BERTRAM (Mt. Hawthorn) 15.30 p.m.]: habit, although they could retort and say that is It will not surprise the House if I indicate that 1, their own business. They could claim that it is the too, hope that by the beginning of 1982 the tensions under which they work that has led them Leader of the Opposition will no longer be to resort to smoking! contributing to this particular tax. If that It may be that the Leader of the Opposition happens, it is worth while that he will then be would say it is the tension he is under that has joining in excess of 66 per cent of the population induced him to smoke. I am one of those of this State who are now non-smokers. fortunate people who has never smoked very The Opposition supports this measure, but it is much and therefore, I did not have to exercise worth while to remember that it contains within it great willpower to get rid of the habit. One of my an incentive for even more advertising and previous secretaries was a heavy smoker and at therefore even more pushing of drugs than regular intervals he used to say. "I am a very hitherto. Those people who are selling tobacco strong-willed man; I give up smoking every day!" and who will have to pay the added tax which is involved in this amending legislation, wilt see in I would like to refer to a matter about which that encouragement for them to sell even more we are very conscious; that is, education. A cigarettes and tobacco than they are selling now. number of programmes have been introduced That would be highly detrimental because, as we through the Department for Youth, Sport, and have reminded the Minister for Health on a Recreation-a good place to start number of occasions, and as we will continue to perhaps-programmes through the Education remind him, currently in Western Australia in Department itself, and programmes through the excess of I 300 people die each year as a direct Health Education Unit of the Public Health consequence of having smoked cigarettes; that is Department. These are just a few of the areas to say, in excess of four Western Australians die where programmes have been initiated. every day as a result of smoking cigarettes. It is Very soon we will have the report of a also worthy of note, although extremely sad, that committee which was established by the for years this Government has done virtually Government. The chairman of this committee was nothing to correct that position. Dr H-adyn Williams. That report may give us I would like to have touched on other matters further leads and allow us to extend the education in respect of this subject, but I will leave it at that programme. Perhaps we will get the message and I will take the opportunity at a later time to about the dangers of smoking through to more develop other arguments in the light of the members of the public. present state of affairs in Western Australia I thank members for their support of the Bill. resulting from the use of cigarettes by the public, and particularly by young people. Question put and passed. SIR CHARLES COURT (Nedlands- Bill read a second time. Treasurer) [5.33 p.m-]: I thank the Leader of the Opposition and his colleagues for their support. I In Committee, etc. wish the Leader of the Oppostion luck in his Bill passed through Committee without debate, campaign to rid himself or this vice. reported without amendment, and the report Mr Brian Burke: What about the other adopted. campaign? Do you wish us luck with that? Sir CHARLES COURT: I will wish him luck Third Reading in regard to his health and his campaign to give Bill read a third time, on motion by Sir Charles up smoking. I will let members into a secret; it Court (Treasurer), and transmitted to the always amazes me when I am at the Treasury Council. that I am just about the only non-smoker there. All the senior Treasury officers smoke like AMENDMENT (PRISONS) BILL chimneys, so it cannot be said that they have a ACTS vested interest in this particular legislation. To the Second Reading contrary, they would have a vested interest in not MR HASSELL (Cottesloc-Chief Secretary) raising the tax. However, they are very [5.37 p.mn.]: I move- considerable contributors to this tax, and it always strikes me as being rather humorous that That the Bill be now read a second time. almost without exception they are such heavy This Bill is supplementary to the Prisons Bill smokers. I hope that one day they will give up the which was introduced in this House last night. [Wednesday, 28 October 19811 499399

This is a Bill for an Act to amend the Criminal The Bill is consistent with the provisions of the Code and the Offenders Probation and Parole Act proposed Prisons Act which will authorise the 1963-1980. detention of existing reformatory class prisoners The Bill proposes the deletion of references to in any prison. -reformatory- prisons where they appear in those I commend the Bill to the House. Acts. Debate adjourned, on motion by Mr Parker. The Bill also proposes amendments to the Offenders Probation and Parole Act 1963-1980 QUESTIONS which are consistent with the proposed new Questions were taken at this stage. Prisons Act 1981, Sitting suspended from 6.13 1to 7.30 p.mr. The proposed amendments would alter the Offenders Probation and Parole Act 1963-1980 APPROPRIATION (CONSOLIDATED by- REVENUE FUND) BILL changing the definition of the Director of the Second Reading: Budget Debate Department of Corrections; changing references to the Prisons Act 1903 Debate resumed from 27 October. to the proposed 1981 Act; and MR CARR (Geraldton) [7.30 p.m.]: The Opposition has said already that this Budget was changing the reference to the prisons framed in difficult Financial circumstances, but regulations 1974 dealing with remission to a that those Circumstances reference to the proposed new Prisons Act were of the Government's own making. I will take this 1981. opportunity to reiterate that statement in my own The provisions relating to reforma tory prisons words because I believe a most important myth were first included in the Criminal Code in which presently exists in this State must be put to Chapter LXV (65) in 1918. They appeared in the rest, and that is the myth that this State Offenders Probation and Parole Act in Government is the poor, innocent, and defenceless consequence. victim of something inflicted upon it from the Under the provisions of the Code a superior outside, without its having any influence on that court may direct that an habitual criminal, or any situation. I am talking about new federalism and other person convicted of certain indictable would like to spend a few minutes to show what offences, can be detained during the Governor's new federalism is, has been, and will be in regard pleasure in a reformatory prison. to this State. The provisions reflect the belief that prison Mr Davies: Watch your language. authorities can impose reformation or Mr CARR: In 1975 the new federalism policy, rehabilitation upon an offender sooner or later. as it was then called, was presented by Mr Following the introduction of the provisions, Malcolm Fraser and the Premier of this State reformatory prisons were established and separate who claimed joint authorship of that policy. It regiment and conditions prevailed at those was a significant step by which Federal funds and reformatory prisons. responsibilities in regard to the States would be reduced, and the responsibilities were ones Today, subject to conditions of security, all traditionally held by the States such as those for prisoners arc treated in the same manner and health, housing, and education. have equal opportunities to take advantage of self-improvement programmes available within It was agreed that the States would accept prisons. responsibility for those functions and the funding of them, and to do so would raise the necessary This Bill recognises that reformation of a funds. To conform with the policy it was to be prisoner cannot be effected simply by detention necessary for each State to impose its own income until a prisoner sees the error of his ways. taxes in addition to those which it received from Provision will still exist for a court to order the the Federal Government. indeterminate detention of persons convicted of The Opposition warned that new federalism certain indictable offences where the court has would cause many problems. We even said that decided that such a course is necessary. the policy was not new federalism, but an old- The release of such offenders upon a parole fashioned federalism which existed back int the programme is a matter wholly within the early stage of Australia's development. We discretion of the Parole Board. referred to the new federalism policy in some (157) 4994 4994[ASSEMBLY] disparaging terms by saying it was new feudalism development. For example, a new police station because that term more accurately described it. will be established at Burrup Peninsula, and it At the Federal hustings in 1975 and in ibis will have to be manned by a reasonable number of Parliament in 1976 the Premier gave full support officers to meet the large influx of workers during to the new federalism policy. The Prime Minister the construction period of the project in that area. adhered to that policy; he gave back to the States The effective increase will be low-perhaps nil. responsibilities for a number of areas and refused Clearly the Police Force will Call further behind in to increase Federal Government funds for fields its ability to meet the needs of this State. such as education, health, and housing. The Mr Davies: Do you think some of the duties people who did not adhere to the policy were will be taken over by the Federal Police? State Governments because they did not proceed Mr CARR: Be that as it may, I do not want to with stage two of that policy which was the be sidetracked with that issue. However, it is introduction of State income taxes. Sme interesting that the Federal Government is Premiers rejected the notion of State income taxes showing more interest in areas for which our immediately-in particular, Premier Wran of Government is not willing to increase the number New South Wales. of police officers. Mr Bryce: He is a great man. Mr Davies: The Federal Government is not Mr CARR*: Every Premier came to realise that showing much courtesy to them. the imposition of State income taxes would be Mr CARR: That is true. The Police Union has political dynamite. Not one Premier of a State not been quiet. As a result of the nil increase in Government now considers seriously the the Police Force last year the Police Union introduction of State income taxes. However, our pressured the Government quite strongly. As a Premier was the last to realise what would consequence, a committee was happen. His Government prepared legislation to established to prepare a submission on the need for more police introduce State income taxes, but reluctantly officers for this State. In fact, the Government admitted that it was not appropriate to introduce commissioned a committee to help the legislation. He now blames Mr Malcolm the Police Fraser for the new federalism policy; yet in 1975 Union to prepare the submission. Mr Ewing, the Chairman of the TAB and Commissioner of the R he said it was Mr Fraser's and the Premier's & I Bank, formerly a Deputy Commissioner of policy. State Taxation, and Mr Court, a former executive I am very concerned by the effects which have officer of the RTA, co-operated with the Police come about from the lack of funds in this Budget. Union to prepare a comprehensive report which It affects a whole range of State responsibilities was brought down in March of this year. It such as health, education, housing, cultural detailed the need for more police officers for this affairs, and community welfare. State and detailed the effects of the serious My new responsibility is for police matters, and rundown of the Police Force which has occurred. I am concerned by the likely effects of the The Government cannot blithely dismiss this funding cutbacks in that area. The Police Force in report. It maintains credibility because top-class Western Australia has been allowed by this people were involved with it, people whom this Government to reach a manpower shortage Government respects. To a large degree it can be situation. The Government has allowed the Police said that the Government commissioned the Force of this State to run down, although not in report. regard to the absolute number of police officers. The first important point made in the report is The force has been run down in terms of its that in the past the Treasury has placed an undue ability to meet the demands placed upon it. In amount of credibility on the ratio of police particular, it cannot meet its responsibility to keep officers to population in its establishment of down the incidence of crime. This Government funding. It neglected consideration of has been negative in its attitude towards the geographical and other matters which cause Police Force. problems in Western Australia. The Australian Last year's Budget provided no increase at all ratio of population to police officers does not put in funding for the Police Force, and this year Western Australia in a bad position. Last night there will be an increase of only 60 officers. That my colleague, the member for Morley, quoted increase is illusory; over 40 officers will be used to figures to the House. They were worth quoting man the new law courts building and most of the and I will refer to them. They indicate that rest will be used to man new police stations Western Australia lies third on the list in regard necessary for areas undergoing industrial to the number of police officers per capita. Only [Wednesday, 28 October 19811 499599

South Australia and Tasmania have a better ratio increase from 27 811 to 67 332 in 10 years-an than has Western Australia. However, the figures increase of 40 000. Surely that is regarded as an are misleading because they make no allowance enormous increase in the number of crimes for the size of this State and the geographical committed. I refer to page 12 of the report at diffculties which occur throughout the State. The which a couple of significant statements are decisive point made in the submission was that it made. The report states- is unreasonable to rely on this ratio. There is a clear indication that the serious Indeed, the report goes to great pains to refute upsurge in violent and serious crime the value of the population-to-police ratio. It supported by up-to-date statistics will contains an extract of the submission made in continue as long as the Government blindly 1980 by the Western Australian Government to refuses to accept the inevitable. Western the Australian Grants Commission. In fact, the Australia, which already has the highest report contains 75 pages of appendixes covering ratio of violent crime in Australia, can do the State Government's submission which goes to little in the crime prevention area until the great lengths to say that the population-to-police attitude of Treasury changes. ratios are not the important factor. The report further revealIs that i n the If we compare the ratios with like situations in metropolitan suburbs sex offences and various other States we can see that Western Australia other serious crimes are committed daily and that does not do well. The ratios for metropolitan police controls are completely inadequate. areas of the States indicate that Western Australia in its metropolitan area has the worst I will refer to other statistics to substantiate the ratio. I will spend some time dealing with this point that the crime rate in Western Australia is matter because it clearly indicates that we do not at a higher level than in other States. The State have enough police officers. Government's submission to the Grants Commission appears at appendix B of the report, The background of the report is that all police and at page 60 of the submission it indicates that stations, sections, districts, and branches were investigated. The committee contacted all town in Western Australia the number of crimes per and shire councils in the State and received 1000 people is 21.84 each year. The number in information from the Retail Traders Association, other States ranges down from that figure, but parents & friends' associations, parents & Western Australia has the highest rate. Similarly, citizens' associations, and others. Statistical it can be seen from the statistics in regard to the information was obtained from the Police number of crimes committed compared with the Federation of Australasia, the metropolitan town number of police officers that Western Australia planning board, the Department of Industrial is in a position worse than that of any other State. Relations, Police Department annual reports, and, The rate ranges from I I crimes per police officer as I have mentioned, the State Government's in Western Australia down to 5.2 in Tasmania. submission to the 1980 Grants Commission. That statistic can be found at page 62 of the report. Mrs Craig: What is the metropolitan town planning hoard? The next point made in this report was about Mr CARR: The Minister is quite right to raise the problems related to services. It was pointed that query. It appears the document is inaccurate. out that the decreasing number of policemen in It should have refferred to either the MRPA or relation to the number of people in the the Town Planning Board. The body concerned community had the result that the police did not would have been either or both of those have the ability to provide the time and effort to organ isat ions. deal with minor offences or inquiries of a less urgent nature. Evidence given to this committee As I have said, the report basically was indicated that many complaints were simply commissioned by the Government and the Police Union and lists a large number of serious disregarded. problems presently confronting the Police Force. Considerable mention was made in the report it details the increase in crimes in Western about the fact that it was a dangerous position Australia, particularly crimes involving the use of faced by policemen who have to patrol in remote firearms, and rape, sex, and drug-related offences. areas at night, often without radio The appendix indicates that an enormous increase. communication. The union applied to the in the crime rate for Western Australia occurred Industrial Commission to have the police award during the years 1970 to 1980. The number of amended to provide for two patrolmen in danger offcnces listed in police records indicates an 4996 4996ASSEMBLY]

It was recorded on page 10 of the report as the need for more stations apparent and the follows- policemen have been spread quite thinly Evidence was presented to Senior throughout areas. There also has been an increase Industrial Commissioner Kelly during his in Royal visitors and the consequent need for inspections and hearings that there was a police escorts. growing tendency among officers acting It was indicated that the failure to take on new alone to avoid stopping or apprehending police recruits had caused the problem of offenders in remote areas or where there promotional stagnation. were numbers in a car. Approximately 40 extra officers will be There was an admission that police officers were required for the operation of the new court choosing, in difficult situations, not to apprehend complex. The report also details the fact that the offenders because they were worried about the State has a problem of unemployment. This has odds which were against them. Further in the assisted in the rising crime rate and an increasing report it was stated- amount of time is taken up by police officers in Attention was drawn to the serious legal court to deal with court matters. and physical dangers which can prevail in a We have a larger number of people defending situation where a patrolman acting on his cases which has placed extra demands on police own is required to apprehend a driver officers. We have complex new laws which also affected by alcohol or drugs and is required place a further demand on police officers. to take him to a police station. Criminals increasingly are using more It creates a situation where a vehicle is left sophisticated technology. unattcnded and all sorts of dangers can result. The RTA is required to spend enormous These factors must be overcome if we are to have amounts on overtime. The point was made that an effective Police Force. undlersurveillance has resulted in dangerous occurring. The example of the The problem of inexperienced officers or junior situations police officers being forced into the front line was Scarborough drag races was given where another problem which was mentioned. There insufficient police patrolmen were in that area, which led to a dangerous situation which required were also communication disabilities, especially in a maj or effort to deal with the problem. situations where stations were closed at early hours of the evening. Not only were stations left In the preparation of this report for the unattended, but also, of course, the Government, an approach was made to local communication facilities were not available to the councils throughout the State seeking their views vehicles out on the road. on the police manning levels. There was a predominance of replies indicating that the shires The report also mentioned that racial problems were experiencing problems because of have increased throughout the State. I am not inadequate police services. sure if that is true, but many pages of the report indicated that fact. Throughout history, country areas have had a record of lawful behaviour and because of this the The report also stated that the increase in Police Force has been inclined to withdraw placed a further burden on industrial disputes has policemen from some areas. This has led to a police officers. In many cases RTA patrolmen are situation where people who had been obedient required, and one example quoted was that of the before because of the presence of policemen were Greenmount truck drivers' dispute a year or so not now, and country people were now Finding ago. themselves in a situation where more law There has been an increase in urban breaking was occurring. development with more shopping centres which Following the presentation of this report to the must be patrolled for shoplifters and vandals, etc. Government, the union set out to quantify the The report said there has been an i ncrease in extent of the shortage of police officers and its high-density dwellings and more liquor outlets in secretary sent a letter to the committee. The the State, and as a result more policemen are letter suggested that 550 officers were required required to spend their time policing these areas. and that they should be recruited on the basis of The police also have been engaged in actions 250 men on this year's Budget and 150 men in which have arisen from political decisions: for each of the following years. That figure would put example, the Noonkanbah situation. the Western Australian Police Force on a It was also stated that the industrial population-to-police ratio very similar to that development taking place in this State has made which prevails in South Australia. [Wednesday, 28 October 19811 499799

That increase would mean that Western Before the formation of the RTA. it was the Australia with South Australia would have an policy of the ALP that traffic control should be equal lowest population-to-police ratio. However, under the control of the police. that would not fully reflect the situation because When we wvelcomed the merger, I said that we we have greater distances in our State and remote would be watching very closely the areas to police. implementation of that policy. As we have The Governments response was a very miserly watched it closely we have seen some ominous 60 policemen who will be involved mainly with signs emerge. It appears that this policy may have the law courts or new police stations in areas of been nothing more than a mechanism for the industrial development. Government to transfer policemen from the The union is angry and it held a meeting last country to the city. In questions I have asked weekend which carried a resolution that if the recently, I have referred to the article in The situation was not reviewed by the Government by Western mail of last Saturday. I should like to the end of November it would place a voluntary quote two significant paragraphs of that article. ban on the six-day week. This would mean that The first stated- the police patrolmen would not be volunteering to be available for overtime. A pressing need to bolster the metropolitan police force is behind the State Government's The police union is not a radical union and it decision to abolish the Road Traffic does not cause trouble. It is a responsible uni.on Authority. made up of responsible, community-minded people. The second stated- Mr Bryce: I wonder whether the Minister There can be no doubt that RTA agrees. officers-particularly those in country posts-will be used to provide more Mr CARR: I would be interested to know. Be that as it may. it is a responsible union which is policemen in the metropolitan area. suffering a morale problem because of the way it Mr Hassell: Do you accept everything The has been treated by this Government. Greater Western Mail says? demands have been placed upon the force and Mr CARR: No I do not: that is why I directed more men are not being made available to deal a question to the Minister yesterday afternoon in with those demands. the hope that he would clearly state that the I feel I should make mention of the impact on article was incorrect and that there would not be the community of this decrease in the ability of any transfers. the police to deal with the increasing problems of Of course, the Minister declined to do that. The the community. As I said earlier, if a criminal has Minister gave a fairly typical answei which went the impression that he is likely to be apprehended, on at some length and said nothing. he is lcss likely to be involved in a criminal offenec. As it becomes apparent that the Mr Hassell: That is not true. apprehension risk is relatively lowv. it is likely that Mr CARR: The Minister was not prepared to more crimes will be committed. This is something deny the article. which cannot be quantified: it is something which Mr Hassell: I did not make any such point at increases over a period of time. all. The ground which is lost in this situation is Mr CARR: The Minister refused to give any most difficult to recover. if we create a situation indication as to whether that statement was true where people who are presently law abiding or false. We find ourselves in a situation where believe they are unlikely to be apprehended, we there is secrecy about the RTA merger. We have will Find it will be difficult to recover that ground. come to the conclusion that we should watch this We in the Opposition deplore the running down of Mi nister with the greatest of suspicion. the effective strength of the Police Force and call for an urgent consideration of the provision of We of the Opposition are very concerned about more police officers. the shortage of policemen in the city, but we It is interesting to note one response to the certainly do not accept the view that there will be staffing situation which was to merge thec Police a surplus in country areas. There most certainly is Force with the RTA. As the picture has become not a surplus of policemen in country areas. We clearer, it has become more interesting. We in the agree the merger should increase the efficient use Opposition welcomed the merger in principle of the resources of the Police Department. because it has been our policy for many years. Mr Shalders: How? 4998 4998[ASSEMBLY]

Mr CARR: We agree the amalgamation should Is the Minister able to confirm that, in enable the resources to be used more efficiently in fact, the RTA will be merged with the Police the sense that instead of having two organisations Department? in each country town it should be possible for a In reply, the Minister quoted a Press statement he rationalisation of the activities of the policemen in had issued that day which, in part, stated- each of those two forces, and this should be of No decision has been made to amalgamate benefit to country people. We would hope that, the Police and the Road Traffic Authority with the same number of people being left in each country town, efficiency would increase. Mr Hassell: I know you have been trying to What we are concerned about is the suggest I told some untruths to the House. possibility-which is becoming more of a Mr CARR: I am not merely suggesting that; I probability-that policemen will be moved from am saying it deliberately and blatantly, straight to the country to the city. the Minister's face. The answers he gave to this Mr Shalders: Would you agree that some RTA House were not accurate answers and in fact, the officers at the moment would carry out general Minister deliberately misled this House. duties, and vice versa? Mr Hassell: I am saying deliberately and Mr CARR: I have no objection to the principle blatantly to your face that you are wrong, as I of there being that exchange of duties between have said before, and that every answer given to people in the two services. However, I am this House byrme has been true and correct at the concerned that what the Government is planning time it was given. is to help solve its city police problem by Mr CARR: That is something which is very siphoning people from the country to the city. We doubtful, too. will be watching that situation closely. Mr Hassell: Decisions are made in a certain We are very concerned at the amount of chronological order, and before they are made, secrecy which surrounds this proposed merger. they are not made. Is it beyond you to grasp that The information we received became available fact? only through leaks from one source or another, or Mr CARR: That is an interesting variation to from newspaper reports. We are concerned that the Minister's answer. The Opposition's the Minister has given answers to Parliament understanding was that a decision was made in which are incorrect. the first half of September. Let me trace the situation as it has occurred. Some two weeks after we believed the decision Every member of this House would be aware, and was made, on 23 September, the Minister for most people around this building, and many Police and Traffic said that no decision had yet people throughout the State would know that in been made to amalgamate the two organisations. the First half of September this year. the Cabinet On 29 September I pursued this matter again expenditure review committee brought a with the Minister by way of question without submission to Cabinet recommending that this notice 549. I offered him the opportunity to merger take place. reconsider his answer and the Minister replied in the following terms- It is also well known around this building that during the first half of September, Cabinet I decline the opportunity offered by the member for Geraldton. decided to merge the Road Traffic Authority with the Police Force. Those details have been leaked Once again, that was not a very clear answer from far and wide by a whole range of people who have the Minister. So, I pursued the matter again that become familiar with the discussions. The extent day by way of question without notice 556, in of leaks which have occurred is interesting, which I asked- because it indicates people are seeking to let the Is it correct that at no stage has the public know what is going on with regard to the Cabinet made a decision to merge the traffic operations of this Government. It is also control functions of the RTA with the Police interesting to note that Cabinet is no exception to Force? those places from which leaks come. The Minister said- The matter first reached public attention on or I have no reason whatsoever to amend my about 23 September. On that day, I asked statement. question without notice 525 of the Minister for So, we have a situation where, on 29 September, Police and Traffic in the following terms- this Minister maintained that absolutely nothing [Wednesday, 28 October 1981] 494999 had happened to cause him to amend his Mr CARR: There is no precedent for a private statement that no merger was to take place member to resign. We are talking about the between the Road Traffic Authority and the principle of a Cabinet Minister resigning if he is Police Department. discovered misleading the Parliament. I say this: The evidence available to me is that Mr Hassell: No-one is arguing with the this decision was made in the first hair or principle. What I am saying is that I did not tell September. However, even if it were not made untruths. I am arguing with the lies you are then it would have been made no later than at telling. the Cabinet meeting of 28 September. Yet on 29 September-the next day-the Minister was able Points of Order to say in this House that he had no reason Mr BRIAN BURKE: The Minister has used whatsoever to amend his statement. He gave that the word 'lies" which has been the subject of answer only two weeks before the Budget was repeated rulings in this House, and I ask that he brought down in this place. be directed to withdraw. If the decision was not made by Cabinet on 28 The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Sibson): I ask September, when was it made? It could have been the Minister to withdraw. made only a week later, seven days before the Budget was presented to this House. We all know Mr HASSELL: I withdraw. I ask that you what the Budget document looks like; we all know require the member for Geraldton to withdraw how many pages it contains, how long it must the mis-statements he has made, which have no take to print the document, and how long it takes foundation whatever. the Premier to deliver the Budget speech. Mr Bryce: Do not ask the Acting Speaker to Therefore, there is no doubt that the decision to make a fool of himself. merge the RTA with the Police Department was The ACTING SPEAKER: Order! There is no made no later than 28 September, which makes it point of order. clear this Minister simply has not been honest with the Parliament. He has given answers which Debate Resumed have been deliberate untruths- Mr CARR: I make the point it was not I who Mr Hassell: I repeat that you are wrong. asked for the withdrawal. I have never asked for a Mr CARR: -aimed at getting the Parliament withdrawal in this place, and I never intend to do and the people to believe the Government did not so in the future. I believe that remarks such as the intend to merge the RTA with the Police Minister just made do him less credit than they Department when in fact the Government already damage me. had made its decision. There is no doubt this The ACTING SPEAKER: Order! I suggest the Minister has deliberately misled the Parliament. member for Geraldton continue his remarks, and Mr Hassell: You are telling untruths, and you address the Chair. should have the decency to withdraw. Mr CARR: In response to the Minister's Mr CARR: I am not telling untruths; I am statement that I have made accusations which are saying what I honestly believe to be the truth. It is untrue, I point out that I have merely recounted my clear understanding that the answers given by the questions and answers which have taken place this Minister were deliberately designed to give in this Parliament and to state my belief that the this Parliament the wrong impression of the answers given lead Me to the conclusion that the Government's intentions. Minister has been misleading the House. I draw members' attention to a Westminster Mr Hassell: You are not interested in hearing principle that a Minister should not deliberately the facts which might have the effect of changing mislead the Parliament, and that any Minister your opinion in this matter. guilty of such misleading should resign. This Mr CARR: I would be very appreciative of Minister should resign. receiving the facts from the Minister, but as we Mr O'Connor: He did not mislead the all know, he is not a Minister who is given to Parliant. providing facts in answer to questions. M r CAR.R: Of course he will not resign; I know Mr Hassell: You well know that under the very that, because this Government does not take any Westminster principles to which you referred, I notice of that principle. cannot give you the facts, yet you persist in Mr O'Connor: If we can prove that you are making unwarranted allegations for which there wrong, will you resign? is no evidence. 5000 5000[ASSEMBLY]

Mr CARR: The Minister admits he has not We find these unacceptable answers very given us the facts. typical of the way this Minister has Performed in Mr Wilson: He is very touchy. this House. He is very secretive and will not answer Mr CARR: Yes, and he has good reason to be. questions. It is clear he is simply not on top of his portfolios. We said when he was first Mr H-assell: You are telling untruths, and I appointed to the Ministry, "That is a big work greatly resent it. load for an inexperienced Minister". Several members interjected. It is becoming clearer every day that this Mr Brian Burke: What a statesman! Minister simply is not able to handle the scope of The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Sibson): Order! the work load for which he has responsibility. He The crossfire of interjections will not be tolerated. is Minister for Police and Traffic. Chief I suggest the member for Geraldton address Secretary, and Minister for Community Welfare, himself to the Chair, and to the matter before the and he cannot handle any of those portfolios. He Chair. is getting himself into trouble in each area. He is Mr 1. F. Taylor: Yes, the Budget. getting himself into trouble in this House with the Police and Traffic portfolio. He is in trouble as Mr CARR: I move now to another aspect of Chief Secretary. He is getting himself into trouble the Minister's administration of his portfolio of in regard to prisons, and in matters relating to Police and Traffic. I refer to the matter of RTA liquor and drugs. He is in trouble in relation to blitzes, which have caused some controversy and He is questioning as to their effeetiveness. gambling, about which he is doing nothing. in trouble with (he Electoral Department, in So it was that in the interests of seeking terms of the actions he has taken to deprive information I asked the Minister questi on on people of their vote. He is in trouble in regard to notice 2294 on 21 October in the hope that he censorship and with everything related to the would provide me with information to assi st me, portfolio of Chief Secretary. He has been the on behalf of the Opposition, to make some sort of most heartless Minister for Community Welfare evaluation of just how effective these policies have this State has ever seen. He has turned the been. I received a disgraceful answer. department into nothing short of Stalag XIII in Mr Hassell: You received an answer to your the way in which he treats the people who are question. covered by that department. Its officers are trying M r CARR: I asked- to do their best, but he has turned out to be a walking disaster area. (1) Has the Road Traffic Authority prepared any written report-however The Minister has the trouble touch. We have preliminary-of its monitoring of the heard of the Midas touch, but he has the trouble results of the 'roadblock" campaigns? touch. Everything he touches these days seems to The Minister replied- turn to trouble. (I) Road block operation is part of the I suggest strongly to the Premier that the overall enforcement strategy and no Minister be given a lesser work load. If he had separate records are kept. one portfolio only, he might be able to spend some time on it, and at least have his answers That is a disgraceful situation. How can the organised. He is good for us, but he is not very Government expect to analyse the effectiveness of helpful to the State. such a major and controversial programme without keeping adequate statistics? I was going to spend a little time in the Budget debate talking about a couple of local issues in I asked a follow-up question, and the Minister Geraldton. However, with one minute remaining. once again gave one of his very long answers clearly I will not be able to do that, so I will leave which provided little information, in which he those comments for another day. said that some sort of general information was kept. Of course, he attempted to malign the MR SIAALIDERS (Murray) [8.16 p.m.]: At the question and the Opposition, and accused the outset. I indicate my support for the Budget Opposition of not being serious when in fact we introduced in this House by the Treasurer. are very serious on this matter. We acknowledge It is common practice to comment on the seriousness of the problem which confronts allocations to a member's electorate, so I will say the RTA. We want to co-operate in doing what how pleased I am that the Government has we can to reduce the road toll. We were allocated a further amount for the extension of astonished that the Minister failed to answer the the water supply in South Mandurah. That is an question in a correct manner. area of growing population in my electorate. [Wednesday. 28 October 1981]100 5001

Certainly that allocation, and the reticulation of present Commonwealth Government that did the water supply in the area, will be received that. gracefully by the increasing number of people who Mr Bryce: Blame Fraser! This man is the are making their permanent homes there. author. I am pleased also that funds have been made Mr SHALDERS: I do not believe in defending available for the building or a further new a Government if some of its decisions are not primary school in the North Mandurah area. This worthy of defence. will mean that three new primary schools will Mr Brian Burke: The Premier stated that the have been built in Mandurah since the Court Government took office in 1974. At that time, one guarantees are complete. primary school existed in Mandurah. and all the Mr SH-ALDERS: In this House I have secondary school students were bussed to the high criticised the State Government on some matters. school at Pinjarra. Since then two new primary and I am prepared to stand tonight and criticise schools and a high school have been completed; the Federal Government for its breach of Federal and now a third new primary school will be relations, not only with Western Australia. but opened for the start of the school year in 1982. 1 also with every other State. assure the Treasurer that the parents of Had the agreement on new federalism been Mandurah are appreciative of the attention that honoured, Western Australia would have been the the Government has given to the educational recipient of many more millions of dollars this needs of the children in the district. year- I am a little disappointed that it has not been Mr Bryce: We could have told you you cannot possible to allocate funds for the commencement trust Fraser. Anybody who has ever trusted him of stage two of the Mandurah ring road. The has gone down the chute. necessity for the ring road and the second bridge Mr SH-ALDERS: The new federalism across the estuary is becoming more urgent. I agreement was welcomed by the Premiers of all request greater consideration of the allocation of the States, including the much-vaunted Neville funds in the next Budget, because if funds are not Wran in New South Wales. He was the Premier allocated at that time. Mandurah will start to who said that it was almost the best thing since develop a crisis situation which will be caused by sliced bread. Unfortunately, the benefits of new the increased flow of traffic from the federalism have not come to pass because of the metropolitan area to the south-west, and vice actions of the present Federal Government and I versa. People are being forced to pass through am critical of that Government for those actions. Mandurah and, in particular, through the Mr Brian Burke: New South Wales is not bottleneck around Pinjarra Road and the existing squealing. traffic bridge. Mr SHALDERS: The Leader of the Mr Bryce: You could have got all the money Opposition also said that this State has lost $228 you wanted if your Premier had not lost $350 million in royalties tht it would have earned had federalism. You could have had million on flew they continued at 1973 values. As he so often is the lot. wont to do. the Leader of the Opposition tells Mr SHALDERS: I am pleased to take up that Ministers on this side of the House to come clean. interjection of the Deputy Leader of the He should come clean and tell the House exactly Opposition. It is at that point that I want to cease what royalties he would raise, and to what extent making comments about the Budget provisions for he would raise them. my own electorate, and turn to the Budget in Mr Bryce: We have explained that, you drip! general. Mr SHALDERS: If the Opposition explained The Leader of the Opposition made great play its stand, every mineral development in this State of saying that this State had lost $350 million as a would know where it was going if we had a Labor result of new federalism. Government. However, the Leader of the Mr Brian Burke: I agree, wxith you. You have opposition fled from explaining-thac point to the got me on thatI. House. Mr SIIALDERS: The Leader of the I will give members an example of how the Opposition wants to perpetuate this myth. but Of Leader of the Opposition shied from the question, course he cannot do so. It was not new federalism When he was speaking in the Budget debate, by which robbed this Suite of the S3SO million: it way of an interjection I asked the following was the abrogation of new federalism by the question- 5002 5002ASSEMBLY]

Do you think we should get a share of electricity which had come about as a result of the royalties on goldmining as well? increased royalties on coal. That was a very simple question; and his Mr Brian Burke: When have I said there will answer- be an increase in the royalty on coat? Mr Bryce: There are no royalties. Mr SHALDERS: That is precisely the point I Mr SHALDERS: -at that time- am making. If the Leader of the Opposition will not tell us which royalties should be increased- Mr Bryce: How can you share nothing? Mr Brian Burke: The point is that you have just Mr SHALDERS: It is amazing how members accused me of increasing the price of electricity of the Opposition shout when they do not want to by increasing the royalty on coal. Then you said hear the answer. We are aware that when they that I have not said I wanted to increase that begin shouting, they are hoping to drown out royalty. something that they do not want people to hear. The people sitting in this House tonight, listening Mr Young: You haven't got a policy to to the debate, will know that this is what is increase. happening. Mr Brian Burke: Of course we have a policy. To my interjection, the Leader or the The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Sibson): Order! Opposition made the following reply- Mr SHALDERS: I ask the Leader of the ...we support the proposition for a Royal Opposition to tell this House which royalties the Commission into all those mineral Opposition would want to increase. development projects, with the exception of Mr Brian Burke: Our policy is- gold, presently occurring in this State. I Mr SHALDERS: If I can continue with my maintain that the Royal Commission should speech- look to the way in which we can most efficiently take, for the people of this State, a Mr Brian Burke: If you want to ask a question, fair share of the wealth that they own. I will answer it. Mr Brian Burke: With the exception of Mr SHALDERS: Last Thursday the Leader of gold-did you say that? the Opposition had unlimited time to tell this House of the Opposition's policies. He now wants Mr SHALDERS: With the exception of gold. to consume some of my limited time, and I am When I asked the Leader of the Opposition if we not prepared to accept that. If he wants to tell this should have a share of royalties, he said that the House something, let him do so at another time Royal Commission would make that decision. when he is on his feet. He is always accusing However, that is not saying whether we should members on this side of making speeches while have royalties on gold. That is not an answer to they are sitting down, and yet he wants to do the question. In talking about a Royal precisely the same thing. It is a case of the pot Commission, it is obvious that the Leader of the calling the kettle black. Opposition was not prepared to commit himself, He fled from giving a straight answer to that Mr Young: I wonder whether he would question. interject and tell you wvhat he would do wvith royalties if the Royal Commission said there The Opposition has been quick to criticise the should not be an increase. Government for the increases in service charges. One of those increases, of course, has been in Mr Brian Burke: That is the whole point. Do electricity charges. The Opposition makes great you want me to interject and tell him? play of the fact that the Government has Mr Young: I asked him. increased the cost of electricity, but it does not Mr SHALDERS: The Leader of the hesitate to suggest that the Government should Opposition made no mention of the Opposition's increase royalties. What increase in royalties policy as to an increase in royalties on alumina. should there be on coal'? The alumina industry in this State is not as If the Government increases the royalty on healthy as it was in the last couple of years. I can coal, that would reflect in increased costs to the say with absolute certainty that because of the SEC; and in turn that extra cost would be passed present situation, Alcoa of Australia Ltd. is on to the consumers. Therefore the Opposition is reviewing its staff appointments. In some cases, it saying, "Let us have a bigger royalty on coal"; has decided not to appoint people to positions for and then if the Government accepted that, in 12 which it has called applications. That is entirely months' time the Opposition would be criticising because of the current profitability and future the Government for increasing the cost of outlook of the alumina industry. I can guarantee [Wednesday, 28 October 1981J100 5003 the correctness of that, because I can produce a tested basis and some of those people who were letter from the company to a person who made eligible previously and had converted their application for a position. In that letter, the allowances, suddenly found they were no longer company said it would not proceed with the eligible to receive payments? I personally support appointment, and that was the reason. a family allowance conversion scheme, but it Mr Brian Burke: You said you were going to should be introduced by the Federal Government. produce the letter. Where is it? Its introduction could not possibly be entertained Mr SHALDERS: I said that if members by a State Government either in WA or in any opposite did not believe me, I could produce it. I other State, because of the way in which decisions do not have it with me, but I can produce it. I in relation to the family allowance will be made in would not say that if I could not. The Leader of the future by the Federal Government which the Opposition knows me better than that. makes the payments. Later I will produce a couple of letters on In outlining the Budget, the Treasurer another matter. They may not make the explained to the House there would be an increase Opposition squirm because they do not deal with this year in pay-roll tax collections, but there matters affecting it; but they are connected with a would not be an increase in the percentage level of body that the Opposition may want to defend. pay-roll tax paid by businesses. Of course, that is Recently the Leader of the Opposition proposed in direct contrast to the policy of the Wran the conversion of family allowance payments- Government in New South Wales which recently Mr Bryce: A great, statesmanlike scheme. increased its pay-roll tax by I per cent. It sacked a few school teachers also. The Wran Mr SHALDERS: He did not put it forward Government was able to increase its education nearly as well as I did more than two years spending by only approximately 9.1 per cent. We previously- hear the Opposition extolling the virtues of the Mr Bryce: Do you still agree it was a Wran Government in relation to some matters, statesmanlike scheme? but it has been ominously silent about those two Mr SH-ALDERS: The Leader of the issues. Opposition could not explain to members of this I believe the Government policy has been House the net benefit to the home buyers in the excellent in that it has exempted an additional examples that he quoted. He said that the scheme number of small businesses from the payment of would bring down their mortgage rates, without pay-roll tax. A further 750 small businesses will knowing the exact net benefit. To give those no longer have to pay that tax and that is a Figures. one would have to know the amount of family allowance that was being forgone. marvellous incentive to small businesses in this State. It shows which side of politics is prepared In 1977, when I put forward a similar to support small businesses when the chips are proposition to this House. I had a number of down. examples, and I was able to explain the net benefit to the home buyer in the examples that I We know that stamp duty has been increased quoted. by the Government in a number of areas in this Budget. However, it has been made clear also There is however a significant difference between the Leader of the Opposition's that, in almost every one of those areas, this proposition and mine. My proposition was that State was charging a lower rate of tax than any because the family allowance payment is made by other State in Australia. The Grants Commission the Federal Government, if it was decided to had noted that fact and it was one of the reasons adopt a conversion scheme, it should obviously be the commission recommended Western Australia one which is set up by the Federal Government so should be deprived of a further $162 million next that when future decisions are made as to what year. Therefore, obviously the Treasurer has had will happen with family allowances-and we have to act on that recommendation by the Grants heard rumblings it might in future be on a means Commission and we hope that, as a result, it will tested basis; who knows, it might be increased or at least in part alter its advice to the Federal decreased-the position will be consistent Government. throughout Australia. Another point I should like to mention is stamp Where would Western Australia stand if it duty on cheques which has risen from 8c to 10Oc. allowed a conversion policy for family allowance That brings us into line with every other State in payments and in three years' time, for example, it Australia except Tasmania which currently was paid by the Federal Government on a means charges I c. 5004 5004ASSEMBlLY)

I am delighted to see the increase in funding Another point of interest is that it is my provided to the Police Force which amounts to understanding at the present time chat for safety 12.4 per cent. However, I have an area or concern reasons every patrol officer who uses a police regarding the proposed amalgamation of the motorcycle has one allocated to him for his Police Force and the RTA. In my opinion-it exclusive use. It occurred to me that if there is to might be I shall rind cvidence to the be an amalgamation of the Police Force and the contrary-there are three specialist areas in RTA and a greater number of additional police work: There is criminal work which is policemen are engaged in road traffic patrol work undertaken by the CIB: there is road traffic using motorcycles, it is questionable whether the enrorcement currently undertaken by the RTA; practice of equipping each officer with his own and, of course, there is the general duties area of motorcycle will continue. If it does, it seems to me police work. Each of these forces has proved to be there could be a great escalation in cost in that very effective, none more so than the RTA. area. In 1974 when the Court Government was first I am delighted the Government has seen fit to elected the number of fatalities per 10000 lay to rest the hoax perpetrated by some members vehicles was 6.4. We have some weeks to go. but of the Teachers' Union of this State and the it is projected that this year the figure will be Opposition that the Government intended to 3.13. In other words it is estimated there will be a downgrade education. We have seen that the halving of the rate of fatalities which obtained at funds allocated to education amount to a 12.4 per the time the Court Government was elected to cent increase on last years allocation. This slightly office. increases the percentage of funds in the total In 1974 there were 334 road deaths and if the budget allocatd to this area than was allocated rate today was the same as it was at that time, last year. there would probably be at least an additional 200 I am quite certain the parents of this State have deaths on the roads this year. Those lives have now realised that the Opposition and some been saved very largely as a result of the members of the Teachers' Union were dedicated work of the officers of the RTA. endeavouring to perpetrate a hoax which caused One of the reasons the RTA has been a very them a great deal of unnecessary worry. It will be effective force in Western Australia is that the some considerable time before the parents fall for men involved in it elect to join that service. They the "three-card trick" again. are there because they want to be there. Let us In order to allay any doubt as to where the face it, one volunteer is worth 10 conscripts in any interests of the Teachers' Union lie-whether operation. they are with the children who are taught as Another reason for the effectiveness of the suggested by the propaganda it distributes, or RTA is that when officers join the authority they whether they are with its own members-I shall are provided with a month's special training for produce some evidence tonight which will patrol duty. They receive also special training in demonstrate very clearly that first and foremost the operation of radar equipment and the test the Teachers' Union has the interests of its own equipment used when a driver is suspected of members well ahead of the interests of the driving under the influence of alcohol. We know children of this State. the RTA has had difficulty in obtaining The letter to which I now refer was sent by the convietions in the courts in relation to offences of President of the State School Teachers' Union of this nature; therefore,'it has been necessary to WA to principals of primary and secondary specially train the men to operate the required schools in this State. It begins with the words, equipment. "Dear Colleague". That is an improvement on the It concerns me that, if the amalgamation of the words which were used to begin a letter sent to a Police Force and the RTA were to take place union member in my electorate a few weeks ago quickly, the same standard of training could not which started with, "Dear Comrade". At least be given to the general duties officers, some of this letter begins with the words, "Dear whom would no doubt be required to perform Colleague". The letter continues- road traffic work. That would be a shame. The 1981 Annual Conference decided that because it would lessen the efficiency of the the following working conditions with respect authority and it is possible that it could cause an to class sizes and workloads will pertain to all additional loss of life on the roads and I do not Union members Fromi the commencement of think anyone would want that to occur. the 1982 school year. [Wednesday, 28 October 1981] 500550

It then goes on to list the number of pupils who Mr SHALDERS: In my opinion, the teachers may be in the various classes at any time. I shall who ignored a union directive to strike ought to just run through them quickly. They are- have a medal struck for them. Obviously I said Pre-primary-25 pupils something I did not mean to say, but, Primary classes years I and 2-30 pupils nevertheless. I am sure the Deputy Leader or the Year I and year 2 classes in a hi-cultural Opposition will draw my attention to it privately situation should not exceed 25 pupils later on. I am glad I have given him some mirth, because there has not been a Year 3 to year 7-33 pupils great deal of joy for him in some of the Where there are significant hi-cultural other comments I have made. differences-30 pupils. The letter concludes with the following paragraph- It then continues with the secondary school class numbers. The letter goes on to say to the Executive has decided that, because you principals of these schools- have ignored the Union directive, you should be contacted and given the opportunity to This information is now drawn to your explain. Failing a reply or a satisfactory personal and direct attention to alert you to explanation within thirty days, I must further the need to consider these aspects when inform you Executive has determined to fine timetabling teachers and classes for the 1982 members who did not strike the sum of $30. school year. It is perfectly obvious the Teachers' Union has I also need to advise you that conference recently become more militant in its attitude. It has directed Executive to take appropriate has now become affiliated with the TLC. I do not industrial action in schools where class sizes intend to do this tonight, but were I to read to or teacher workloads of Union members members the names of prominent members of the exceed these limits. TLC and the names of prominent members of the The second last sentence in the letter says ALP Executive in this State, I could use the same this-and this is the key to the whole issue- list. Again I would remind you that these It is perfectly obvious the TLC is dominated by working conditions apply only to Union those who are top-ranking people within the ALP members. and that the ALP is dominated by many people who are top-ranking trade union people. In other~ words, the Teachers' Union is not worried about teachers who are not members of Mr Bryce: Would you say the same of the the union: but, worse still, it is not worried about Liberal Party and the Confederation of WA the children in the classes of teachers who are not Industry? members of the Teachers' Union. Mr SHALDERS: No. I would not. Mr Bryce: of course they are. Mr Bryce: Or the Chamber of Commerce? Mr SHALDERS: It has said to the principal, Mr SHALDERS: If the Deputy Leader of the "if you have 80 grade sevens next year. you can Opposition has evidence of that, let him produce give 33 to a union member and you can give the it because I am certainly not aware of it. other 47 to a non-union member and we will not Mr Bryce: I asked you a question. There is no raise a pcep". If ever that is an indictment of the politics in the Confederation of WA Industry just attitude of where the priorities of the Teachers' as in local government. Union lie, that certainly is. Mr SH-ALDERS: What I am saying is that Then, of course, we come to the farcical those people he refers to are not prominent people situation where the Teachets' Union has written within the hierarchy of the Liberal Party but to certain teachers in various schools, including certainly many people in the hierarchy of the Hollywood Senior High School. saying- Labor Party also dominated the hierarchy of the union movement in this State. It has come to our attention that during the recent industrial campaign you ignored a Mr Bryce: That is really not true. Union directive to go on strike. Mr SHALDERS: It is not my intention to take What a heinous Crime that is-ignoring a up the time of this House any longer. As I said. I direction to go on strike! support the Budget introduced in this House by the Premier. It certainly was introduced in Mr Bryce: A what? I think you should certainly difficult Financial circumstances and I believe he withdraw that. We will take you to one side after. has done an excellent job in deciding the priorities Mr O'Connor: Dictatorial to say the least. for the spending of the finance available to the 5006 5006[ASSEMBLY)

Government and I want to congratulate him on connection with detergent used, temperatures, and bringing a Budget of that nature to this House also the agitation levels because there are certain which, by and large, has met with general public parameters within which scouring must be carried approval.- out. That is the point I make in connection with Government members: Hear, hear! that report, the source of which was the Minister. MR EVANS (Warren) (8.46 p.m.]: Some I have a number of other reports. The first one weeks ago in the grievance debate I raised the is from a foremost scouring company in Western question of an industrial chemical known as Clout Australia and states- and the effects that it has on sheepskins. This has The product from the trial scouring was been a matter of deep concern and it was featured most disappointing as the delousing agent on one of the popular television programmes. only partly scoured leaving a black greasy I mentioned during the grievance debate that 1 like tip, and the colour very poor showing a was concerned about the effects on unshorn wool yellowish discolouration similar to some and indeed, I did say that the main concern was chemical reaction with no similarity to the for the disaster that could result to the wool wool being scoured free of this agent. industry from the use of a chemical having such Mr Old: Which company was that? effects. We are talking about a $1.4 billion Mr EVANS: That is Hulme Wool Scouring industry. The Minister, in his reply to the Co. Further on it says- grievance debate, denigrated the point I was making and suggested that the Department of From our trials we have come to the Agriculture and the Government were making conclusion, wools treated with this delousing every effort possible to minimise and overcome agent may commercially suffer a heavy loss, any problems that may arise. as these wools could be heavily discounted into an off colour type and to avoid this as a There are several points I wish to make as a result of our tests cannot recommend the use result of further research I have carried out. The of this agent. Minister was good enough to table for me the results of tests carried out by the CSIRO in The second test was carried out by the foremost Geelong, and that is now a tabled document. textile technologist in this State and sets out Without being over critical, the report is deficient clearly a four-bowl test in four minutes. It to the extent that it does not give technical detail. indicates the percentage of non-ionic detergent, I will explain what I mean by that when I and that point is very salient. We will look at two compare it with a further report. small paragraphs. I want to cite two small points from the CSIRO Mr Old: Who did this one? report. Some sample lots were shorn by the Mr EVANS: This was done by D. i. Bonney, Australian Wool Testing Authority and were ARTCS, textile technologist. In the report he tested for their resistance to scouring, so states- apparently the AWTA first raised the matter A further test was conducted increasing with CSIRO. The significant point in the the agitation to the maximum i.e. to the point conclusion is that after scouring the wool-that is of felting. The contaminant was not removed, the Clout specimen and the control-the wools it was therefore deduced that the were again examined but no sign of Clout could contaminant was not soluble in standard be seen. Therefore, the conclusion is drawn in the aqueous scouring solutions. report that there was no problem in processing the particular wools provided by the WA Department Mr Old: Who is he with? of Agriculture. That is a fairly straight-forward Mr EVANS: He is the technologist from Wool Statement. However, several qualifications were Scourers. I ask for permission to include this page made by Dr George Wood when I spoke to him. of tests in Hansard by way of comparison to the He pointed out that the manufacturing firm CSIRO one already tabled. That would save me involved also participated in the CSIRO tests. He the trouble of reading it. It is a quarto-size page made that point and also the point that the test and contains what could be regarded by some as represented one trial from one flock of sheep in boring detailI. Western Australia: the weather conditions were The SPEAKER: Order! I need to point out to unknown, and weathering could be a very the member that there is no provision in our significant factor in the overall problem. Standing Orders to have incorporated the sort of There was no technical data by way of material that he seeks to incorporate. The procedural detail provided in the CSIRO report in Standing Order provides only for the [Wednesday, 28 October 19811 500700 incorporation of material that cannot otherwise be reputable firm and is well regarded in the trade. read into the record. on Wednesday, 21 October and spent some hours Mr EVANS: I may have to seek the tolerance in the plant. I was able to witness the testing of of the House while several paragraphs are read. two samples of wool. The testing was carried out Mr Old: I know the member is only too willing, in a simulated situation under conditions that approximated but might I ask for that paper to be tabled in normal trade practice. order that I may see it? The test was on contaminated wool. The The SPEAKER; I ask the member for Warren temperature was 62-C; 10cc of detergent TN450 to table the document from which he is quoting at was used in each sample and it was taken over a the conclusion of his speech. period of three and a half minutes- The normal industrial process takes four bowls. The wool goes Mr EVANS: I would be very happy to oblige through four successive stages, the First at 65 and I will table the three from which I have been degrees, the second at 60 degrees, then 55 reading. The report continues- degrees, and the final one at 30 degrees Since a sample combing machine was not centigrade. To remove this contamination a new available the testing was discontinued and process involving a new solvent plant would have the following deductions were made. to be acquired because at the end of that normal (0) The contaminant is insoluble in testing arrangement-I deliberately retained two aqueous scouring liquors. samples and they are available for anybody to (2) The contaminant will not be examine-the contamination had not come out. removed in carding. Most members would have a reasonable (3) The contaminant is not removed in working knowledge of the wool industry-once gilling. wool has been scoured it is cleaned and then goes It may be that the fault could be removed, through a series of combing operations, starting or reduced in combing, however since the off with gilling and then going through the colour of the fault is objectionable, it is likely combing processes. The French combs gradually that greasy wool containing this fault would parallelise the fibres and at the same time extract be discounted according to the degree of the small ones, taking with them as much as contamination. possible of the impurities-grass seeds and vegetable matter. So. finally there is a Stream of That is important because it is a normal process. very fine, cleaned, parallel-running fibres. That is the opinion of the foremost textile Members would be aware that there are two technologist in Western Australia. I have already sections of the trade-he woollen trade and the quoted from the tabled document of Hulme Wool worsted trade. The woollen trade involves the Scouring Co. I turn now to the Jandakot Wool smaller fibres which are combed out early in the Scouring Co. Pty. Ltd. I will quote what the piece by a special pt'ocess. These short fibres drop chairman slated. This sample was scoured down into the noil boxes. These noils are used to through a mesh bag and processed through their give the woolly effect which is used in various scouring line. I quote- woollen garments. However, for suit-making a The resulting scoured product would be higher class worsted material is required and the suitable for combing as we consider the small fibres are removed leaving a fairly shiny majority of foreign matter remaining would thread at the end of the process from which suit come out during the carding process. This lengths and material of that kind can then be may effect the value of the noils but would woven. not effect the value of the top after the next The point is that the use of a chemical such as stage of processing Ce:combing. Clout will be applied wvhile the fleece is very That again is purely an assumption on his part. short, just after shearing, and as a consequence, and I will explain that. To continue- the greatest effect will be on the longest fibres For the scouring industry the foreign which would have had the longest time to grow. matter in the wool is a disaster. Clients That is probably the reason that I find fault with would refuse the delivery as they now do the report of the chairman of the Jandakot when existing brands are not properly used, scouring firm. such brands leaving a similar problem. The essential point is that if the contaminant is While I have the report of the CSIRO. there are present after the scouring it will remain through three reports that do not agree with it. I the complex chain of the manuiacturing stages. personally visited Wool Scourers. which is a The technologists say that there is no way they 5008 5008ASSEM BLYI can get it out and if CSI RO has the ability to do Mr EVANS: Right. Of course the chemical so, it should make its methods known, or the field is a fairly competitive one, and I have here CS1RO should send someone out to show the the reaction of a gentleman from a chemical firms how to get rid of it. company. His Final conclusion is that Clout is not The second point is that the wool scourer scourable-that seems to be fairly evident. He cannot remove the contaminant. I have seen a also went a stage further and said it would not sample after four successive tries have been made come out at any stage. to remove the contaminant. The wool was almost I spoke to Mr Ainsworth of the Australian at the felting stage, but all the treatment had Wool Testing Authority. He claimed that no real been to no avail. test had been carried out by the AWTA, and that The amount of contaminated fibres in a is fair enough because this authority lays down quantity of wool is variable and members will standard tests that must be followed. However, he understand why we cannot determine how much indicated that he was involved in washing a is in a bale of wool. If a strip of wool is taken sample for one of the wool buyers, although he from the back of an animal which has been considered it to be a trial wash rather than a test contaminated, that can be isolated during which AWTA normally carries out in such cases. shearing and the treated wool kept in one heap, I So he was rather inclined to discount the result of suppose that would concentrate the problem, but this trial wash. He was also of the opinion that if the treated wool goes in with the normal fleece the contaminant would not wash out using normal without a selection process, it spreads throughout industry scouring methods. the entire bale. It would well be that the contaminated fibres which are dispersed and We must bear in mind that in the actual distributed throughout the total wool mass are washing and scouring process, there is not much inconsequential. However, scourers must meet room for variation, If the water is any hotter than very strict specifications-the companies for 65CC there is trouble. If the agitation is increased whom they work are most unforgiving. The level beyond a certain level, the product felts and it is of acceptable contamination is very low indeed; in not suitable for iberising. Also, the ratio of the fact, I was surprised at how low it was. detergents used is fairly well established and the concentration of To illustrate the point I am making, I will draw the detergent cannot be an analogy. If a pint of black paint were poured increased to a great extent. The Other alternative into a 10 or 20-gallon container of white paint, it is to rewash the product. may not be noticeable. However, it is still there As soon as a company departs from the normal somewhere. Although perhaps the wool is not scouring process, extra plant and equipment is pure white in the first place-it would be some needed, and even if additional processes using shade of grey-the colour of the grey would be established plant are required, the additional cost deepened. If we were just dealing with the must be borne by somebody. I suggest that it question of degree and whether or not the would be borne by the producer. remnant can be spread throughout the whole Mr Grewar: It has great advantages, you Must processing piece so that it is inconsequential, there agree with that? is no worry. However, as far as the scourer is concerned, he cannot get rid of the contaminant. Mr EVANS& Yes, I could not agree more. I will It is there when the wool goes into the next stage. come to that point and I will refer to the balance This is the essence of the problem to which I that has been suggested. endeavoured to draw attention some weeks ago. I would like to mention now a wool scourers* If the claim that Clout weathers in a full year technologist, Mr R. J. Bonney. He pointed out and only prmaturely shorn wool is contaminated that the contaminant will not scour out and he is correct, the problemn is reduced again. It is will stake his professional reputation that under reduced then to the preni-shorn wool and the bulk normal industrial methods it will not come out. of the clip is not involved. But we must think That is a fairly significant statement fronm a man about using contaminated wool in normal of that standing. industrial operations- t-he problem is still there. Mr Cowan: When was the chemical applied in I would like to refer to the reaction of people relation to the test that was made? within the trade whom I have contacted, some of Mr EVANS: I can be accurate on only one of whom are fairly concerned about it. those dates, and I will conic back to the CSIRO Mr Grewar: Naturally the)' are concerned; they report. However. I would like to make afe could go out of business. points about the comments of people in the trade. [Wednesday. 28 October 1981J100 5009

The Chairman of the Private Treaty Wool I have not been able to indicate the extent of Merchants Association (Mr Ray Brent) has the problem. Somewhere between 70 and 100 considered the effects of the chemical on prem- million sheep have been treated in Australia, and shorn wool only:, that is, wool from a sheep of four in excess of 15 million in Western Australia. So to seven months. He says that the contaminant this treatment has been carried on for some time. will not wash out. That is a significant point, and The problem of Clout on wool skins has been it has been referred to by the CSIRO. Mr Brent's referred to on television and in other sections of tests were carried out on wool taken from along the media. It does exist. The manufacturers, the the back where the treatment had been applied. TCYD, and the Department of Agriculture He has his own personal opinion about the recognise that it exists. The label of the product matter, and it is a rather pessimistic one. He must now carry the reservation I have referred to. cannot estimate the extent of the problem. I However, the degree of the problem has not been understand that the Federation of Private Treaty determined, and that is the matter about which I Wool Buyers meets in Adelaide on Friday. 30 am critical. October, and the Joint Selling Wool Brokers meet It has to be asked why this particular chemical in Melbourne early next week. Both organisations was permitted to be registered in this State in have this problem listed on the agenda and it will view of the subsequent effects and reservations of be discussed. It will be interesting if 'he those connected with it. 1 have placed on the organisations take an attitude about Clout. notice paper a question which has not been According to Mr Brent there does not appear to answered as yet. I want to know what were the be any great problem with the wool taken from permits for, the information on and the results of cross-breed sheep. The problem arises in regard to trials which were carried out and presented with the finer classes of wool-the 22-micron or better the application for registration and over what period the chemical was tested before it was class-anid that includes a good proportion of the registered. It will be interesting to know whether Western Australian flock. it was registered when applied to the sheep which I spoke also with Mr Creigh, the Western were tested by the Department of Agriculture. Australian Manager of the Australian Wool They were treated with Clout in November 1980 Corporation. Although he had been notified of the and shorn in August 1981, and I understand the problem by the Department of Agriculture, it has cecmical was registered in February 1981. It will been referred to his head office in Melbourne, and be interesting to learn whether this was a he is seeking further information from there. preliminary trial. The Pastoralists and Graziers Association, At the moment the Department of Agriculture through its executive officer, has discussed the has three country tests in progress using a new matter with me. One of the senior officers of the variety of Clout with a base which has probably Department of Agriculture has addressed the been changed. It could possibly alter the executive committee, and he Stated the policy combined effects of different chemicals and could indicated by the Minister in this House. The probably change the whole scene. While that is Minister said that in effect it is a problem of the being done it is jolly necessary there be tests of all residue that exists in prem-shorn sheep and kinds. I am at a loss to understand why the producers should not use Clout on sheep which present situation-the contaminant certainly will be shorn within nine months. Also, the use of cannot he removed from that prematurely shorn the product could result in a loss of skins if it is wool-has not been followed through. not used according to the directions on the label. An ordinary scourer will need 10 tonnes before If the product is used by the producer, he must he can put a real commcrcial trial through. If this know what is on the label, and whether or not he is done, by the time the first batch comes out and then uses the product then becomes, a matter for is found to be not acceptable, he would have in his own commercial judgment. the pipeline a great deal of wool with which he Clout was introduced into New Zealand shortly will have serious problems. before it was introduced into Australia. The Chief I know the CSIRO tests with wool which had of the Animal Division of the New Zealand approximately nine months' growth could have a Department of Primary Industry (Dr Adlam) different bearing on the Final answer. The details indicated that problems with a counterpart of the manner in which the wool was scoured were chemical had been experienced in New Zealand not revealed in the tests, and from that point of and at that stage they had been referred to the view the report which the Minister kindly tabled Animals Remedy Hoard. is deficient. 5010 5010[ASSEMBLY]

There are several other matters about which I The responsibility for maintaining reticulated wish to make reference and the first concerns the water supplies is something about which I have no hidden expenditure which was not announced personal comment to make. But the problem of during the Budget, but which was subsequently sporting facility fund grants being reduced must made perfectly clear in answer to questions asked necessarily decrease the number of projects that last week and also in the Press release which the will be funded or the amount that will be made Premier made and tabled at the time the available to each of those projects which can questions were answered. proceed. That is most regrettable. It will come The essence of this is that the expenditure back to the shires to increase their avenues of review committee, as part of its forward-looking raising funds, which will mean an increase in plan, has recommended a number of changes to rating or a decrease in the facilities available. It is certain aspects of local government Finances. The always regrettable when that occurs. Where specific items that were noted over a three-year country people are concerned it is a sorrowful period from 1982-83 were, first and foremost, affair. that the allocation to local governments through A further matter on which I shall make the local authorities assistance fund should be comment involves the Claremont Technical phased out. Thai is a most valuable fund and College and its possible closure. This is a most country shires depend on it. specialised college and one to which I can allude Mrs Craig interjected. with some personal experience, my eldest Mr EVANS: Bearing in mind that the finances daughter having taken a diploma course there of some shires have been tidied up, the net which she completed last year. This enabled me at financial situation has been an overall decrease. first hand to see the operation of the college and the nature of the specialised situation for which it Mrs Craig interjected. is able to cater. Mr EVANS: When we take into consideration Mr Grayden: Did she take the fine arts course? the full range of local government expenditure it can be seen they arc not as wellI off as it might Mr EVANS: Yes. The popularity of that appear they are. course is really astounding. About four years ago I did lament in this House that she had been Mrs Craig: I do not think there would be a accepted on a folio basis. She was told she was decrease. eligible, but that it was a matter of First in first Mr EVANS: I could not say whether there has served. It was indicated to her that when been an actual increase or decrease overall, but I enrolments started in the morning she would get do know that local governments depend on the in if she were amongst the first 40. She and her local authorities assistance fund. It has been of friend went along at 1.00 am. and I went out at great benefit to the shires in my area. 3.00 am, to see what was going on. At 1.00 am. As for the transfer of local government audits she was 23rd on the list. At 5.00 am. there were to the private sector wherever practicable, it could something in the order of 32 people in line and at be that at group of shires could get together and that stage I returned to bed. I was told that all make some arrangement with a suitable auditor who had attended were fitted in. That is the and so obtain somec sort of saving. I know the extent of the popularity of the course. audit charge of between SI 900 and SI 400 for The Claremont Technical College is a unique the four shires in my own district is something institution; it is a cultural asset because it has which is not relished. developed itself into an ethos and a community There are three shires in my area that obtain that is 100 per cent art oriented. It is divorced the maximum amount of $3 000 from the from and devoid of distractions. It has developed swimming pool subsidy scheme. If this is taken quite a wide reputation and certainly the diploma away it will mean a further impost on these course, on completion, is equated to any tertiary shires. qualification. Mr Cowan: What about the shires which have The standard of tuition is outstanding. The several towns in their area? college has people like Leon Kalamaris, who has Mr EVANS: The transfer of employment and held sculpting exhibitions in Greece and Sydney. recreation officers to the extent of the This typifies the people assembled at the college. Government providing a subsidy of half the cost If the qualifications and qualities of each of the of the salaries involved will mean that 41 shire instructors is looked at individually, it would be councils will be hard pressed in this area. found that was not an isolated ease. [Wednesday, 28 October 19811 515011

To disperse what has been accumulated in that Of tuition. It is for these reasons it would be a regard would be a most detrimental happening. detrimental and retrograde step not to keep the because the college does cater for a specialised college open. form of education and we are lacking in the Fine I understand there is a meeting tonight to arts. I suppose Australia has not had the opportunity to develop a tradition like the alder consider ways and means by which to keep the countries have and it will be a long time before we college open. I notice the Minister for Agriculture can hope to emulate them. Unless there is a start is interested in what I am saying. I understand he and an opportunity to pursue full-time tuition of has a personal association with the college and this type and at this level we will never come close probably he would be able to lend strength to my to attaining the standards necessary or to comments. developing our own traditions. The college is There are a number of other matters on which I unquestionably ideally matched to its community would like to comment, but I will do so during the and its environment. further stages of the Budget debate. The students get something from the place I table the papers that I was requested to table. which they would not get elsewhere. I suppose it is the total atmosphere and involvement of the The SPEAKER: The papers I asked to be college. The people there might work some tabled are to be laid on the Table of the House extraordinary hours at times, but I suppose it until one hour after the commencement of might have something to do with the artistic tomorrow's sitting. temperament. The papers were placed on the Table of the The college caters also for full-time and part- House for the information of members. time mature students. While that might seem to Debate adjourned, on motion by Mr Cowan. have no immediate effect on the communi ty as a whole, I can give the experience of a person who owned a fairly profitable drapery store at BILLS (2). RETURNED Manjimup. He was able to retire at the age of 50 1. Liquor Amendment Bill. and he promptly attended the college and did Bill returned from the Council with something he had cherished doing for a long time; amendments. that was, a fine arts course. There was no other place which could have provided the sort of 2. Metropolitan Market Amendment Bill. tuition he was seeking. Bill returned from the Council without A number of the instructors have won prizes in amendment. open competition throughout Australia and that justifies the statement I made about the standard House adjourned at 9.31 p.m. 5012 01 2[ASSEMBLY]

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE (2) What is the estimate of expenditure on community based pre-schools in 1981- MINING: COAL 82? Collie: SEC (3) What was the total expenditure in 1980- 8I on pre-primary centres? 2344. Mr BRIAN BURKE. to the Minister for Fuel and Energy: (4) What is the estimate of expenditure on pre-primary centres in 1981-82? (1) I-ow many tonnes of Collie coal were used by the State Energy Commission, (5) How many new pre-prinmary centres are July 1980 to June 1981? allowed for in the Budget estimates for (2) H-ow many tonnes of Collie coal were 198 1-82? used by Western Australian industries, July 1980 to June 1981 ? (6) How is the Commonwealth grant of (3) What amount will the Government $4.86 million to be allocated by the receive from the royalties on coal- State in 1981-82? (a) this year: (b) in a full financial year? (4) What extra amount will the State Mr GRAYDEN replied: Energy Commission have to pay for its coal to cover the extra royalty cost? (1) to (4) The only available comparison (5) Is considejation being given to whether between expenditure on pre-primary and all or a proportion of the extra cost will pre-schools is in salaries as advisory, in- be passed on to consumers through service, and regional resources are increased electricity charges'? jointly provided and not separately costed. M r P. V. JONES replied: (1) The State Energy Commission (a) 1980-81 pre-school salaries for consumed 2 909 059 tonnes of Collie 5 243 children one year below coal in the period July 1980 to June school age (4+ age groups) and 1981. 3306 children two or more years (2) Private industry used 223 400 tonnes. below school age (3+ age These figures are from 1 July 1980 to 30 groups)-$4.746 million; June 1981. Total produced by (b) 1981-82 estimate of pre-school nies: 3 123 400 tonnes. conpa salaries for approximately 5 200 in (3) (a) $298 000: the (4 + age groups)-$4.439 (b) $500 000. million, It should be noted that if (4) The actual figure will be dependent the 3+ age group were included upon the quantity of coal consumed this amount would be $4.96 million; which will, in turn, depend on the (c) 1980-81 pre-primary salaries for demand for electricity. 13015 children one year below (5) The cost implications of increased coal school age (4 + age groups) and royalties will be considered along with 1 260 children two or more years all other costs incurred by the State Energy Commission if and when a below school age (3+ age groups). revision of electricity tariffs proves Estimate-$7.935 million; necessary in future. (d) 1981-82 estimate of pre-primary salaries for approximately 13 200 children in the (4+ age EDUCATION: PRE-PRIMARY AND groups)-$8.761 million. PRE-SCHOOL (5) Seventeen, including some small part- Expenditure time centres. 2393. Mr WILSON. to the Minister for (6) The block grant by the Commonwealth Education: provides supplementary funding to the (I) What was the total expenditure in 1980- State for the early education of children 81 on community based pre-schools? one year below school age. (Wednesday, 28 October 1981]101 5013

It was first calculated by the POLICE: PERSONNEL Commonwealth for the 1978-79 Budget Provisions financial year on the number of children, at tending pre-schools and pre- 2402. Mr CARR, to the Treasurer: primary centres, eligible to enrol at a expected cost of the 60 primary school in 1979. What is the extra policemen provided for in the Neither the basis of calculation nor the Budget- amouint has changed since. (a) in 1981-82: (b) in a full year? GOVERNM ENT OFFICE Sir CHARLES COURT replied: Verb), (a) S654 000: 2399. Mr BRIDGE, to the Honorary Minister (b) S1.179 million. Roth figures include associated contingency expenditure in Assisting the Minister for Housing: addition to salary Costs. Referring him to the amount of S600 000 set aside in the State Budget for the provision of Government offices POLICE AND RTA: AMALGAMATION in Derby. when is it anticipated that tendcrs will be called for the Budget Provisions construction of the offices? 2403. Mr CARR. to the Treasurer: Mr LAURANCE replied: With reference to the Treasurer's second Now that funds have been allocated for reading speech and in particular to the the project. arrangements are being merger of the Road Traffic Authority made to call tenders as soon as possible. with the Police Department, will he please explain what he meant by the expression -some savings in TOWN PLANNING administrative support staff"? Si r C HA R LES COU RT replied: Derbyv My comment was a simple qualification 2400. Mr BRIDGE., to the Minister representing of the statement that "no financial the Minister for Lands: savings are sought from this move" Can the Minister give an indication of because it is obvious that in combining when applications will be invited for the now separate administrations of purchase of the motel site included in police and the Road Traffic Authority the proposed subdivision of Derby there could well be some savings in Townsite No. 9973. known as the clerical and secretarial support staff. Hainerslcy Square subdivision? Should such economies eventuate it will make it possible to provide additional M rs C RA IG repl ied: strength in other areas of police activity. Governor's approval i n Executive Council has been obtained to the release conditions; for the motel site. LOCAL GOVERNMENT: TRAFFIC Servicing works have been CONTROL comniissioned and completion is Transfer to Police expected by Christmas. 2404. Mr CARR, to the Minister for Police and Subject to resolution of costings relating Traffic: to power services, applications will be invited for the lot in the near future. (1) How manty country shire councils had handed over control of traffic to the Police Force prior to the establishment 240 1. This quest ion %as postponed. of the Road Traffic Authority? 5014 5014[ASSEMBLY]

(2) Will he please list the shires concerned Boyup Brook in (1) and the year in which each Broomehill handed traffic control to the Police Bruce Rock Force? Boddinglon Mr HASSELL replied: Carnarvon Chapman Valley (Nabawa) (1) 29. Coorow Year (2) Shires Cranbrook 1967 A rmad ale Cuballing 1969 West Kimberley Cue Derby 1969 Chirtering (Bindoon) 1970 Especrance Cunderdin 1970 Ravensihorpe Cape] 1970 M anj imup Corrigin 1970 M erredin Dowerin 1971 BusselIton Dardanup 1971 Lake Grace Donnybrook 1971 West Pilbara Dumbleyung Pi nj arra 1971 Dalwaliinu 1971 East Kimberley Denmark 1972 East Pilbara Greenough (Geraldton) 1972 Roebourne Upper Gascoyne (Gascoyne Junction) 1972 Kondinin Gnowangerup 1972 Port Hedland Goomalling 1972 Coolgardie Gingin 1973 Halls Creek Harvey 1973 Laverton Katanning 1973 Leonora Koorda 1973 Menzies Kellerberrin Wiluna '973 Town of Kalgoorlie Tambel lu p 1973 Kojonup 1974 Collie Kulin Man dura h 1974 Kent (Nyabing) Albany 1975 Mukinbudin Towns Year Meekatharra Northam 1972 Mullewa Albany 1974 Mi. Marshall Geraldion 1974 Northam Nungarin Nan nup LOCAL GOVERNMENT Narembeen Perenjori Molar Vehicles: Licensing Plantagenet 2405. Mr CARR, to the Minister for Police and Quairading Traffic: Sandstone Shark Bay (Denham) (1) How many shire councils presently are Toodyay involved in vehicle licensing procedures? Tammin (2) Will he please list the shires concerned Three Springs in (1)? Trayning Mr HASSELL replied: Wongan-Baliidu (Wongan Hills) (1) 66. Wandering (2) Shires Wickepin Augusta- Marga ret River (Margaret Woodanill ing River) Wagin Beverley West Arthur (Darkan) Bridgetown Williams Brookton Wyalkatchemn (Wednesday, 28 October 1981J101 5015

Victoria Plains (Calingiri) (2) What interests does each member York represent? Yalgoo (3) When is each member's term due to Yilgarn (Southern Cross) expire? All existing arrangements and options would Mr HASSELL replied: be preserved with all local government (I) Xi enmber t(2) Repres~entation (3) Term or expiry Mr B. 1-. Larsen Chie(ctivricer of Noasciterm authorities under a Police/RTA combined (Citoima n) the RTA operation. Mr D0 .HAitken Commissionerof Main No set term (Deputy Chairman] Roads MrSJ.H. Porter Commissionerof Poli"e No set term Mr S. E. Knox Director Generalor No st I term Transporl Me I.G. Bu rnett Local Government 8 jol 1983 TRAFFIC: ACCIDENTS AssocialIiort of WA Mr M. R. Finlaynon Country Urban Councils 8 .lul 1983 Associaline Fata lities vacaet Country Shire Councils 3 years from date of AssocialIin or WA appointment 2406. Mr CARR, to the Minister for Police and Traffice: (I) Will he please provide road toll statistics in terms of fatalities per 10000 vehicles POLICE AND RTA: AMALGAMATION registered for each of the last 20 years? Legislation: Introduction (2) What was the number of road fatalities 2408. Mr CARR, to the Minister for Police and in each of the last 20 years? Traffic: Mr HASSELL replied: When is it intended that legislation will (1) (2) Fatalities per Fatalities be brought before the Parliament to 10 000 motor enable the merger between the Road vehicle on Traffic Authority and Police Force to register take place? 1961 7.6 172 Mr HASSELL replied: 1962 7.3 177 The matter will be dealt with in the 1963 7.6 198 normal way as part of Government 1964 8.1 222 business. No date of introduction can be 1965 8.8 252 nominated. 1966 8.3 253 1967 7.8 256 2409. This question tvas postponed. 1968 9.1 320 1969 8.1 311 1970 8.5 351 LOCAL GOVERNMENT: RATES 1971 7.6 332 1972 7.3 340 Urban Farmland 1973 7.3 358 2410. Mr HERZFELD, to the Minister for 1974 6.4 334 Local Government: 1975 5.4 304 (1) Is she aware some local authorities are 1976 5.1 3011 delaying the application Of the 1977 4.4 290 provisions of section 548(3b) of the 1978 5.0 345 Local Government Act in which they 1979 3.9 279 are required to back-fate any property 1980 4.0 293 ceasing to qualify for urban farmland pending her review of the provision? (2) When does she propose to announce her TRAFFIC: RTA conclusions resulting from the review? Board: Membership Mrs CRAIG replied: (1) No, but I understand that one 2407. M r CA RR. to the M in ister for Police and municipality has decided not to enforce Tra [tic: payment of these back rates until the (1) Who arc the present members of the provisions of the Act have been board of the Road Traffic Authority? reviewed. 5016 5016ASSEMBLY]

(2) I will decide what further action should (4) The normal recovery 'ction is being be taken when I have received a report used whereby the bonds are repaid over on this and other aspects of rating. an extended period in instalments I expect to receive this report within the mutually agreed between the Education next few weeks. Department and the bondee. Failure to meet the instalments results in a series of follow-up correspondence with the final action of Crown Law initiating LOCAL GOVERNMENT: RATES court action. Urban Farmland 2411. Mr H-ERZFELD, to the Minister for Local Government: HEALTH: TRONADO MACHINE (1) Has the review of the urban farmland Trials rating provisions of the Local 2413. Mr DAVIES. to the Minister for Health: Government Act been completed? (2) If not, when will the review be In view of his recently expressed completed'? attitude, the support extended by The (3)' Providing changes are seen to be West Australian editorial, 21 October necessary, would amending legislation 1981, and the letter to The West be introduced prior to the Australian from Dr D. D. Letham, commencement of the next financial published 26 October 1981, regarding year? proposed clinical trials related to the use Mrs CRAIG replied: of Tronado cancer treatment machine, will he give an undertaking that the (1) The urban farmland rating provisions trials will proceed without delay are still being examined in conjunction with a number of rating matters which irrespective of the procrastinating were raised in the report of the attitude of the National Health and McCusker committee and other reports. Medical Research Council? (2) 1 expect to receive an initial report in the Mr YOUNG replied: next few weeks. The criticism of the National Health (3) I am not in a position to indicate the and Medical Research Council is timing of any such legislation. unwarranted and I do not accept it. After years of controversy, I believe we are reaching a stage in an examination of treatment which will enable us to EDUCATION: TEACHERS produce evidence to satisfy the people of Training: Bonds Western Australia as to whether the 2412. Mr HEIIRZFELD. to the Minister for treatment is effective or not. It must be Education: appreciated that the negotiations and the preparations are at a delicate stage (1) flow many teacher training bonds are and must be left to the scientists and current ? doctors without interference. (2) H-ow many have been breached'? The member's question arises out of (3) What is the total outstanding debts criticism of the National Health and against the lantte? Medical Research Council by The West (4) What action is being undertaken to Australian and what appears to be a recover these outstandings? misconception by Dr D. D. Letham by Mr GRAYDIEN replied: which he presumed that the National (1) 322. There are 278 in schools of whom Health and Medical Research Council 198 are secondary and 80 are primary: wished to undertake a retrospective trial 44 are still to graduate from colleges. of the machine. This is not the case, as (2) Two hundred and thirty two bonds have the National Health and Medical been breached. Research Council only required (3) As at 30 September. outstanding debt information about patients treated in the Was SI125 774. This reflects the past to assist in the consideration and outstanding balances of 232 bonds. preparation of a protocol for a [Wednesday. 28 October 1981]101 5017

prospective trial. Unfortunately the HOSPITAL: KALGOORLIE REGIONAL radiotherapists have not been able to Stages: Esiimares provide the National Health and Medical Research Council with the 2415. Mr 1. F. TAYLOR, to the Minister for information required. Health: I have given an undertaking that I will What is the estimated cost in current do everything I can to see that a clinical dollar terms for each stage of the trial is conducted in Western Australia planned re-development of the but because of the standing of the Kalgoorlie Regional Hospital? National Health and Medical Research Mr YOUNG replied: Council. bot h i n Australia and Stage I-Practical completion achieved. internationally. I would prefer that the Cost $1 137 198. trial be conducted under the auspices of Stage 2-Estimate for building, the National Health and Medical including fees, furniture and Research Council. equipment-54.4 million (as supplied by I am happy to advise that work in fact the Department of Public Works based has commenced on the development of on October 1981 prices.) a protocol for a clinical trial, but I Stage 3-Indicative cost is $4 million. would be remiss if I did not indicate that Stage 4-Indicative cost is S5.5 million. there are a number of hurdles to be With the completion of stage I and the overcome in addition to the approval of finalisation of planning of facilities and the council. This information will be services for stage 2, further conveyed to the council by the consideration is now being given to the Commissioner of Public Health who is contents of future stages, hence attending the council meeting in indicative costs only are available for Canberra tomorrow. stages 3 and 4. I have given an undertaking that if the National Health and Medical Research Council cannot proceed. I will do SUPERANNUATION anything and everything to see that a proper clinical trial is conducted in Members of Parliament Western Australia. 2416. M r STEPH ENS, to the Premier: (1) With respect to the Parliamentary Superannuation Act 1948, of the CYCLES: CYCLEWAYS amount shown in the Budget as expenditure in 1980-81- Funds (a) how much was the Government's 2414. Mr I. F. TAYLOR, to the Minister for matching contribution; Local Government: (b) was the balance the amount (1) What funds arc available to local necessary to meet the deficiency in authorities for the provision of the fund? cycleways? (2) Of the allocation for 198 1-82. what are (2) What requirements. if any, must local the respective estimates for (a) and (b) authorities meet in order to qualify for above? these funds? Sir CHARLES COURT replied: Mrs CRAIG replied: (1) (a) and (b) The Parliamentary Superannuation Act, 1948 was (1) It is intended to alter the guidelines for repealed with the coming into the comniunity sporting facilities fund operation of the Parliamrentary so that cycleways and other bicycle Superannuation Act, 1970. related projects can be considered in the Provision was made in the 1970 Act allocation of grants. to adjust and continue the payment (2) The guidelines have not yet been of pensions payable under the determined. repealed Act. 5018 5018[ASSEMBLY]

The liability for pensions payable to FUEL AND ENERGY: ELECTRICITY emerged persons whose entitlement South-eastern Whea their under the 1948 Act is not accounted for separately and any 2418. Mr STEPHENS, to the Minister for Fuel supplementation necessary to meet and Energy: the deficiency in the fund is (I) Is there a cutback in the State Energy assessed as part of the total Commission electrification programme Government contribution. for the south-eastern wheatbelt? (2) Answered by (1)above. (2) What is the extent of the cutback? (3) What are the reasons for the change in planning? MINING Mr P. V. JONES replied: WA Mining and Petroleunm Research institute 2417. Mr BRYCE, to the Minister for Mines: (1) No. (2) and (3) Answered by (1). (I) Referring to the WA Mining and Petroleum Research Institute, when was the institute established? (2) Who comprises the membership of the institute? (3) What was the level of funding for the TRAFFIC: RTA institute in 1980-81? (4) What will be the level of funding for the Personnel: Overtime institute in 198 1-82? 2419. Mr CARR, to the Treasurer: (5) What is the source of funds for the institute? (I) What was the total overtime bill for (6) What specific areas of research is the 1980-81 of- institute to conduct? (a) superintendents and inspectors; (7) What research projects have been (b) sergeants; undertaken by the institute? (c) other ranks, Mr P. V. JONES replied: of the Road Traffic Patrol? (1)The Act was proclaimed on 29 June (2) How many hours of overtime duty was 1981 and the inaugural meeting of performed by each of the three board and advisory committee held on categories above? 18 September 198 1. Sir CHARLES COURT replied: (2) Board of Directors: J. H. Lord (1) (a) Superintendents and inspectors are (Chairman); W. Ei. Ewers; P. L. Wall. not paid for overtime worked; Advisory Committee and Deputies: S. (b) and (c) no specific records are kept. R. Baker (Chairman); Professor P. 0. Harris; Professor A. T. Morkel; (2) During the 1980-81 financial year the Profcssor A. J. Parker; Dr. E. Grimsey; total overtime worked by the Road Dr. D. R. Hudson; Dr. I. 0. Jones; Dr. Traffic Patrol was 76 616 hours, D. Pyle; G. Dann-; A. i. Gaskin; T. S. representing a total payment of Ivankovich; J. C. Lenzo; J. R. May; B. $980 326.39. J. O'Leary-, W. T. Peart:, K. C. Short; N. U ren (3) $5 287. (4) 5250 000 from the Western Australian Government, plus money to be raised from industry. POLICE: PERSONNEL (5) Government and the mining and Manpower Level petroleum industry. 2420. Mr CARR, to the Minister for Police and (6) All aspects of the mining and petroleum industry, with particular reference to Traffic: processing. It is only a funding and co- What has been the approved manpower ordinating institute. level or the Police Force for each or the (7) None. last 10 years? [Wednesday, 28 October 1981J101 5019

EMPLOYMENT AND UNEMPLOYMENT Mr HASSELL replied: Unemployed Persons: Transport Concessions 1972-73-18 12 1973-74-1962 2422. Mr DAVIES, to the Minister for 1974-75-2135 Transport: 1975-76-2291 (1) Has he received a proposal from the 1976-77-2351 Unemployed Citizens Service requesting 1977-78-2471 travel concessions for the unemployed? 1978-79-2527 (2) Has he made a decision on the proposal, 1979-80-2611 and if so, with what result? 1980-81-2611 (3) Has he been asked to receive personal 1981-82-2671 representations on this matter? (4) If so, is it his intention to receive a deputation? WATER RESOURCES: RATES (5) If "No". why not? Accounts: Excess Mr RUSHTON replied: 2421. Mr DAVIES, to the Minister for Water (I) Yes. Resources: (2) A decision has not yet been made on the proposal. (1) Is the tenant of a rented home (3) Yes. responsible for payment of excess water? (4) Yes, I will be meeting with representatives of the Unemployed (2) If so, after what period is positive action Citizens Service shortly to discuss the taken for payment? matter. (3) If not, who is considered to be (5) Answered by (4). responsible? (4) What positive action is taken in each 2423. This question was postponed. case? SOI L: CONSERVATION (5) Has the Water Board decided recently to delay any action regarding Act: Amendments outstanding accounts? 2424. Mr McPHARLIN, to the Minister for (6) If so, for what reason and when is action Agriculture: for recovery likely to resume? (1) In the proposed amendments to the Soil Conservation Act, will there be an authority appointed to administer the Mr MENSAROS replied: Act? (1)Yes. (2) If so, will there be one or more representatives of farmers' organisations (2) Thirty days after due date. placed on the authority? (3) Recourse to the owner is provided in (3) What method of selection and legislation after attempts to locate and appointment is being considered for recover from an ex-tenani have failed. representation? Mr OLD replied: (4) Restriction of water supply where debtor is still in occupation. Legal action in (1) No. other cases. (2) and (3) Answered by (1). (5) Yes, in respect of restriction of supply. LAND (6) Pending legislation to remove any doubt as to the legality of restriction of supply. Leeming, etc., to protect board employees from 2425. Mr WILSON, to the Honorary Minister possible accusations of acting illegally. Assisting the Minister for Housing: Action will recommence 9 November 1981 following notice of same in the (1) What land is owned by the State Press. Housing Commission at Leeming? 5020 5020[ASSEMBLY)

(2) Which portions of this land are to be Mt. Magnet devcloped for- M ullewa (a) sale for private housing; Three Springs (b) State Housing Commission Wi luna purchase homes, Beve rlIey (c) State Housing Commission rental Toodyay accommodation? Coolga rdie (3) When is it anticipated that the Go Go development of the land for the purposes Christmas Creek 7 referred to in (2)(a), (b) and (c) will Derby 5 begin'? Kununurra 3 South Hedland 2 Mr LAURANCE replied: (1) to (3) The commission has a land 48 holding of 58 heetares approximately and no decisions have been made as to The remainder of the programme is yet its usage. to be finalised and approved.

HOUSING: ABORIGINES HOUSING: PURCHASE Alloceation Country Towns and Met ropolilan Area 2426. Mr WILSON, to the Honorary Minister 2427. Mr WILSON, to the Honorary Minister Minister for Housing: Assisting the Minister for Housing: Assisting the (1) How many houses Fo r exclusive (I) In which suburbs in the metropolitan allocation to Aboriginal families will be area will the State Housing Commission constructed in 198 1-82? be building homes for purchase in the (2) How many of these houses will be built current financial year and how many in- will be built in each of those suburbs? of those houses will be built (a) the metropolitan area; (2) How many in each category of bedroom size? (b) the non-metropolitan areas? (3) In which country towns will the (3) How many houses of each bedroom size commission be building homes for will be built in- purchase in the current financial year (a) the metropolitan area; and how many will be built in each town (b) the non-metropolitan areas? or area? (4) (a) In which suburbs in the Mr LAURANCE replied: metropolitan area will these houses 34 be built; and (1) Girrawheen 57 (b) how many will be built in each of Forrest field 52 these suburbs? Balga t0 (5) (a) In which country areas will these Koondoola 22 houses be built: and N olIam ara 21 (b) how many will be built in each of Swan View these areas? Langford 24 Midvale 7 Mr LAURANtE replied: Kenwick 14 (I) to (5) It is intended to provide 93 houses Wanneroo 10 under the Aboriginal housing scheme. Hamilton Hill 25 Of these, arrangements are in hand towards the calling of tenders for 48 276 houses in the following locations- Katanning I Norseman 2 (2) All are three-bedroomed houses. Brunswick JunctionI (3) A programme has not been established DonnybrookI for construction of purchase homes in Waroona I country towns, but when applications Cue 2 are invited, and the demand identified. Denham 2 this will be considered. [Wednesday, 28 October 1981] 502152

HOUSING: RENTAL COMMUNITY WELFARE Country Towns and Metropolitan Area Officers: Field Division 2428. Mr WILSON. to the Honorary Minister 2429. Mr WILSON. to the Minister for Assisting the Minister for Housing: Community Welfare: (1) In which suburbs in the metropolitan (1) What categories of officers and what area will the State Housing Commission types of work are involved in the be building rental units in the current operations of the Field division of his Financial year and how many units will department? be built in each of these suburbs? (2) Why is there such an apparently small (2) How many units in the following increase of about 5 per cent in the categories are to be built: estimate of expenditure for this division in the 198 1-82 estimates over and above (a) two-bedroomed houses;. town the actual expenditure for 1980-81 when houses; duplexes; flats: compared with increases for -other (b) three-bed roomed houses; town sections of the department! houses; duplexes; flats; Mr HASSELL replied: (c) four-bedroomed houses: (d) five-bedroomed houses; (1) Categories of Officers Social Work Supervisors (e) pensioner units? Psychologists (3) In which country towns will the Social Workers commission be building rental units in Graduate Welfare Officers the current financial year and how many Family Welfare Officers units will be built in each of these Homemakers towns? Welfare Assistants (4) How many units in the following The main types of work include the categories are to be built: following- (a) two-bedroomed houses; town (a) General welfare wvork particularly houses; duplexes; flats; in relation to children and families (b) three-bedroomed houses;, town in need, juvenile offenders and houses;, duplexes; flats; disadvantaged groups; (b) specialist (c) four-bedroomed houses: areas including adoptions, early childhood services, youth (d) five-bed roomed houses; activities programmes, family (c) pensioner units? counselling and child-life Mr LAURANCE replied: protection; (c) institutional facilities and (1) A programme has been proposed to programmes for offending and non- construct in excess of 100 units in the offending children:, metropolitan area. It is anticipated that (d) work undertaken on behalf of other 69 of these units will be built in the Government instrumentalities, north metropolitan region, and will particularly in country areas: include some houses in Bayswater, Balga. and lnnaloo, Midvale. and (e) liaison with a wide range of statutory and non-statutory Lockridge. organlisationis. (2) (a) to (c) These details will be finalised at varying stages as the programme (2) The percentage figure quoted by the develops. member refers I presume to the amounts (3) The proposed country and north-west detailed against Field division salaries in programme will be in excess of 140 units item I of my department's estimates. In of which it is anticipated that 50 units addition to the $6 148 000 shown on the will be constructed in the northern estimate for 198 1-82 there is an region. 30 in central region. 44 in south- additional sum of 5494 000 provided in west region, 14 in north central region the same item for 31 currently vacant and 10 in southern region. field items. This extra allocation brings the overall increase to 14 per cent over (4) (a) to (c) Answered by (2). the 1980-81 expenditure. 5022 5022[ASSEMBLY]

The member's attention is also drawn to Mr LAURANCE replied: item 4 of the estimates in which a sum of $1 562 000 is budgeted for field (1) and (2) Tenants who wish to purchase division operating expenses, an increase their single detached rental units may of 9.6 per cent over the 1980-8 1 figure. apply at any time to purchase under the terms of the home purchase assistance scheme. The commission is currently finalising HOUSING: RENTAL AND PENSIONER those applications which were held and it is expected that applications to Low Income Tenants: Electricity purchase new homes being constructed 2430. Mr WILSON, to the Honorary Minister by the commission under the terms of Assisting the Minister for Housing: the Housing Act 1980 will be invited in the near future. These applications will (1) What proportion of State Housing be relative to both first-time applicants, Commission- and also tenants who wish to purchase (a) age pensioner units; homes other than their present (b,) general rental units, commission rental accommodation. are all electric or use electricity as the dominant energy source? (2) What plans does the commission have to TOURISM reduce the levels of expenditure on Caravan Parks energy costs by low income tenants by 2432. Mr WILSON, to the Honorary Minister conversion to more gas appliances or other means? Assisting the Minister for Housing: (3) How is any such plan being currently (I) Has the Government made any attempt implemented? to estimate- Mr LAURANCE replied: (a) the number of people living (1) (a) and (b) This information is not permanently in caravan parks in readily available. Western Australia; (2) hi is not commission policy to change the (b) the number of children living with energy source of existing appliances. In their families as permanent new construction gas as an energy residents in caravan parks in source is used where practicable. Western Australia; (3) Answered by (2). (c) the number of pensioners living as permanent residents in caravan parks in Western Australia? (2) If "Yes" to (] )(a), (b) and (c), what information is available to the HOUSING: PURCHASE Government in each case? Assistance Scheme (3) What consideration is being given by the 2431. Mr WILSON, to the Honorary Minister Government to the conditions governing Assisting the Minister for Housing: permanent residents in caravan parks? (1) Why is the State Housing Commission Mr LAURANCE replied: not currently accepting purchase (1)(a) to (c) The State Housing applications from first-time applicants Commission may when establishing for assistance and from commission housing demand in particular towns seek tenants in apartment, duplex or town this information. house units? (2) Is he aware of the apparently unfair (2) Census details from Bureau of Statistics situation affecting tenants in duplexes and from local authorities bre the and town house units who are denied the normal source. opportunity of being listed for purchase (3) This is a matter for the Ministers for assistance? Health and Local Government. [Wednesday. 28 October 1981]102 5023

CONSUMER AFFAIRS HOUSING: ABORIGINES Auto Acceptance A boriginal Housing Board: Wait-turn 24331 Mr WILSON. to the Minister for 2435. Mr WILSON, to the Honorary Minister Consumer Affairs: Assisting the Minister for Housing: Further to his answer to question 1091 (1) How does he explain the apparent of i98i concerning the operations of a contradiction between his statement that car dealer, Auto Acceptance of Aboriginal applicants are referred to the Bayswater, particularly regarding the Aboriginal Housing Board for assistance method for lending money used by this according to the availability of firm, and his request to the accommodation, in answer to question Commissioner for Consumer Affairs to 2138 of 1981, and information provided monitor the activities of the firm as in answer to other questions indicating conveyed to me in his letter of 13 April, that there are 131 families listed with can he say what further action has been the board for assistance in the taken in respect of this matter to protect metropolitan area alone? members of the public from any possible (2) Can he confirm that some Aboriginal adverse effects of these operations? families have been waiting for accommodation assistance for several Mr O'CONNOR replied: years? The investigation by the Bureau of Mr LAURANCE replied: Consumer Affairs is almost complete and the situation is being examined with ( I) There is no contradiction. a view to taking action for prosecution (2) Answered question 2141 of 198 1. under the Hirc-Purchase Act.

COMMUNITY WELFARE HOUSING: RENTAL Cullaca bardee Village Rents: Increases 2436. Mr WILSON, to the Honorary Minister 2434. Mr WILSON, to the Minister for Assisting the Minister for Housing: Consumer Affairs: (I) What was the timne limit, if any, which (1) Is he aware that with the recent upward was placed on the development of movement in private rents there is an the self-management concept at apparent tendency on the part of Cullacabardec Village and what lease landlords and agents to fail to give was signed when the village was handed adequate notice to tenants of proposed over last year? rent increases? (2) Has the State Housing Commission (2) Is he also aware of an apparent tendency more recently applied for an extension to permit monthly renewal of leases of this lease? only, in order to allow for more frequent (3) If "Yes" to (2), what is the nature of increases in rent? any such extension of lease applied for (3) What further consideration, if any, is and what is the reason for this the Government giving to the need for application for extension? laws on tenancy in Western Australia in Mr LAURANCE replied: terms of the examination of such laws in South Australia and Victoria referred to (1) Three years' support by Department of in his answer to question 219 of 1981 ? Community Welfare and the State Housing Commission is planned to help Mr O'CONNOR replied: the community to develop independence, (1) No. self-reliance and the ability to make (2) No. corporate decisions about their (3) The matter is still under examination by community. the Senior Referee of the Small Claims (2) Lease term and conditions are currently Tribunal and the Commissioner for under consideration. Consumer Affairs. (3) Answered by (2). 5024 5024ASS EMB LY)

EDUCATION: PRE-PRIMARY (2) Have investigations been made into their Centre: East Beechboro condition as a result of the news media publicity last week? 2437. Mr TONKIN. to the Minister for (3) If so, what is the result of such Education: investigations? (I) Is he aware of the considerable concern (4) Is the Government taking action to being expressed in the Beechboro area change those conditions, or does it because many children have been turned intend to take action? away from being enrolled in the East Mr O'CONNOR replied: Beeceboro pre-primary class? (1) to (4) In relation to fauna held pursuant (2) What action is being taken to remedy to the Wildlife Conservation Act the situation? inspections are undertaken and have Mr GRAYDEN replied: shown that the animals are satisfactorily (1) and (2) Enrolments at pre-primary held. Lions do not come under the cntres are being monitored at present Wildlife Conservation Act. to determine whether additional places arc needed at a centre or children can be SEWERAGE: PUMPING STATION accommodated at a nearby centre. The principal at East Beechboro is Mayor Road. South Coogee: Further Pumping advising parents that there are vacancies 2440. Mr A. D. TAYLOR, to the Minister for at Lockridgc for children whom he Water Resources: cannot enrol because his centre has reached capacity. With respect to the pumping station presently being constructed in Mayor Road, South Coogee, is it anticipated that any further pumping of CONSUMER AFFAIRS groundwater from the site will take Consumer Products Safety Commit tee place either- 2438. Mr TONKIN, to the Minister for (a) in the near future; and/or Consumer Affairs: (b) at some future foreseeable date? Mr MENSAROS replied: (1) Has the product safety committee investigated the case of the exploding (a) and (b} Pumping at the site has been ashtray? suspended. A decision on future (2) If so. what are the results of the activities will be announced when investigation? current investigations by the Metropolitan Water Board, the M r O'CON NO R repl ied: Geological Survey of WA. and the (1) and (2) The matter has not been Department of Agriculture have been referred to the bureau by the consumer comipleted. concerned. I am advised that an officer of the bureau will interview the SEWERAGE: PUMPING STATION consumer today and will endeavour to Mayor Road, South Coogee: Further Units collect fragments of the ashtray for investigation. 2441. Mr A. D. TAYLOR, to the Minister for Water Resources: With respect to the pumping station ANIMALS construction site in Mayor Road, South Coogee, is it anticipated that any further lWanneroo Lion Park excavation will take place, for example, 2439. Mr TONKIN, to the Minister to construct a second and third pumping representing the Minister for Fisheries and unit? Wildlife: Mr MENSAROS replied: (1) Is there concern by the Government at No, the pumping station presently being allegations that animals are not being constructed is designed to handle properly cared for at the Wanneroo Lion anticipated sewage flows beyond the Park'! year 2000. [Wednesday, 28 October 1981]102 5025

PORT: FACILITIES ROAD Kwinana Beach Cockburn Road 2442. Mr A. D. TAYLOR, to the Minister for 2445. Mr A. D. TAYLOR, to the Minister for Transport: Transport: (1) What expenditure is budgeted by the When is it anticipated that the southern Fremanule Port Authority this financial section of Cockburn Road, planned to year. for works on the port facility at deviate through the Henderson area and Kwinana Beach? to the east of Mt. Brown, will be (2) Is any part of any such amount to be constructed? spent on facilities associated with the Mr RUSHTON replied: loading of live sheep? There is no immediate plan to construct this deviation. Mr RUSHTON replied: (1) Expenditure of $10000 is budgeted for this financial year to cover normal WATER RESOURCES: GROUNDWATER maintenance requirements. Janda kot: Monitoring (2) No. 2446. Mr A. D. TAYLOR, to the Minister for Water Resources: (1) Is the Metropolitan Water Board continuing to monitor the groundwater level in that area described as the Jandakot groundwater scheme area? (2) If "Yes", are such levels taken on a COCKBURN SOUND casual basis or on a regular basis? Sea Grass Meadows Mr MENSAROS replied: 2443. Mr A. D. TAYLOR, to the Minister (1) Yes. representing the Minister for Conservation (2) Levels are taken monthly on a regular and the Environment: basis. Is any study presently being undertaken with respect to the depredation of sea grass meadows in Cockburn Sound? PAY-ROLL TAX Collections M r O'CON NOR replied: 2447. Mr COWAN, to the Treasurer: No. Of the $197451 604 collected by the State Government from pay-roll tax, what amount was paid by- (a) State: (b) Commonwealth COCKBURN SOUND Government departments or statutory Sea Grass Meadows authorities? 2444. Mr A. D. TAYLOR, to the Minister for Sir CHARLES COURT replied: Transport: (a) State departments and instru menta[i ties, $53 703 775. Is any study presently being undertaken (b) Commonwealth i nstru mental ities, with r-espect to the depredation of sea $1 991 014. Generally, Commonwealth grass meadows in Cockburn Sound? Government departments and instrumentalities are not liable to pay Mr RUSHTON replied: this tax. No, all efforts are being directed towards improving the water quality in the Sound. 2448. This question was postponed. 5026 5026[ASSEMBLY]

FUEL AND ENERGY: ELECTRICITY Sir CHARLES COURT replied: (1) and (2) The Government has held Power Stations: Hyden and Kondinin discussions consistently with Australian 2449. Mr COWAN, to the Minister for Fuel Iron and Steel Ply. Ltd., first of all and Energy: about the positive and very laudable side of having the blast furnace completely (1) What is the capacity of- relined and rehabilitated at great cost. (a) the Kondinin power station; That was the good news. As it got closer (b) the Hyden power station? to the day of recommissioning the blast (2) What proportion of the total capacity of furnace, it became obvious that the main each of the power stations is being outlet which we had used for many years utilised at present? for the output from this furnace-the (3) Do they have sufficient capacity to Chinese market-had dried up on us. supply power to Hyden and farms in the The company gave us very detailed Kondinin and Kuhin Shires east of that information about the search it was town? making overseas, and in fact, it sought (4) When is it anticipated that the farms our co-operation in a search for can be connected? potential orders for the blast furnace, if (5) Is the anticipated date of connection and when it was to be commissioned, so later than any earlier estimate by the that it could replace the lost Chinese State Energy Commission? business. I am quite satisfied the (6) If it is, why? company was very reali&tic in its approach, to the point of even being Mr P. V. JONES replied: willing to accept some very important (I)(a) Safe generating capacity of discounts so far as price was concerned, 576 KW; concessions which would have made it (b) now shut down. very difficult no doubt for the furnace to (2) 78 per cent of Kondinin power station operate on a strictly viable basis. capacity. However, the company was prepared to (3) Capacity of station can be augmented as accept some discount on price if it could required. obtain orders to keep the furnace (4) Depends on progress of preceding operating. We must bear in mind that contributory extension schemes. the company has a very heavy (5) No. investment of $28 million in the (6) Not applicable. rehabilitation of the furnace. Unfortunately to date the company has had no success in its negotiations. In 2450. This question was postponed. the meantime, the company is looking at a number of options. One option it has put to its employees is to try to provide a QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE continuity of employment on a reduced INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT basis. Further discussions will take place with the employees while the company is Australian Iron and Steel Pty. Lid. attempting to obtain further orders. So 689. Mr BRIAN BURKE, to the Premier: far as actual assistance to the company is concerned, for several weeks we have (1) Has the Government had consultations been conferring with the company, with Australian Iron and Steel Pty. Ltd. through the Minister. In fact. I think it Kwinana with respect to the reported is probable that we have been discussing proposed shut down of the blast furnace ways and means of keeping facility? the Koolyanobbing iron ore and railway (2) If "yes"- operation going for three or four (a) were the discussions held prior to or months; that is. the Koolyanobbing to since the announcement; Kwinana line. If we can keep that mine (b) what assistance has the working, even at a reduced rate, it will Government been able to offer to help the situation. One of the means of AIS to keep the blast furnace in assistance may be through rail freights, operation? but we knew that any such move would [Wednesday, 28 October 1981) 502702

attract criticism. On the other hand, the First pump--One officer and five Minister was instructed to negotiate to Firemen see whether he could find a practical Emergency tender-One officer and way for the operation to continue, if not three firemen. at a full rate, then at a reduced rate, This means that a total of only 24 men until such time as we knew quite clearly will man the Perth and Fremantle that may be available for the the orders stations as opposed to the normal roster blast furnace. of dozens. I regard the matter as very Members will appreciate if they are serious indeed. not making pig iron, we must find another outlet for the iron ore, which is Mr Parker: They also advised they would be not easy these days. However, I am available on call from the meeting. satisfied the company has used its best Mr HASSELL: I am aware of that. endeavours and has kept closely in touch However, it might take the fellows from with the Minister and myself to a lesser the Fremarntle station some time to get extent, at all times whilst these down to Fremantle. The member for negotiations have been proceeding. Fremantle ought to be concerned about that. Mr Parker: I am concerned about the fact TRADE UNION that for the first time the Government has not seen fit to grant a flow-on-in Fire Brigade Employees' Union this case, of 6 per cent-from Victoria. 690. Mr WILLIAMS, to the Chief Secretary: Mr HASSELL: Is the member for Fremantle As the Trades and Labor Council defending men engaged in an emergency meeting at Perth Oval tomorrow will not service walking off the job? Why does include members of Government the member for Fremantle not tell the departments and in particular, members public that he is defending firemen of the WA Fire Brigade Board, I ask- walking off the job and leaving the city defenceless against Fire? (I) Does the Chief Secretary intend to pay firemen who walk off duty to Mr Parker: That is not the position at all; I attend this meeting? will explain it at the appropriate time. (2) Is he concerned there will be only a Mr "-ASSELL: The member for Fremantle token number of officers to man the might well explain it to the public, and stations in the case of fire? particularly to his constituents. Mr HASSELL replied: Mr Parker interjected. (1) and (2) The Fire Brigade The SPEAKER: Order! The Chief Secretary Employees' Union advised the fire will resume his seat. I have allowed a brigade management yesterday that certain amount of exchange, but I now they would be walking off the job at suggest to the Chief Secretary that he 8.00 am. on Thursday until the ignore interjections and answer the completion of the meeting and that question. they would leave a skeleton staff at Mr H-ASSELL: To specifically answer part the Perth and Fremantle stations. (1) of the question, I advise that the The management was advised that men who walk off the job on strike the skeleton staff at Perth would tomorrow morning will not be paid. comprise the following- I have already dealt in part with part (2) First pump-One. officer and five of the question when I referred to the Firemen level of manning which is to be Emergency tender-One officer and graciously permitted by these members three firemen of the Fire Brigade Employees' Union-because it is the union which is Hydraulic Platform-One officer and calling the shots. It is the union which three firemen placed the illegal directive in this The skeleton staff at Fremantle will morning's newspaper that the men were comprise the following- to leave their duties and attend the 5028 5028[ASSEMBLY]

meeting. I am sure most of the men do Mr P. V. JONES replied: not want to do that, because mast of the (1) and (2) 1 do not think I could identify men employed by the Fire Brigade exactly which pieces of legislation from somewhere else have been used. Board have a high sense of However, the Deputy Leader of the responsibility. To imagine we could have Opposition is quite right because I have a situation where the emergency services already advised him that the of two major cities were dealt with on information available to the Government this basis, with people walking out on has been examined and, where strike, is just absurd. The member for appropriate, used as a model; the Government has taken on board the Fremantle and other members of the background information collected for us Opposition should not be defending that by various people. it is true we have situation; they should be standing up for access to Statutes and regulations from what should be done, and for what is various places. I will see what can be right. obtained for the member, and let him have the information. Mr Hodge: You have been the cause of it. HOSPITALS: TEACHING Mr HASSELL: I further advise that as a Recurrent Expenditure result of this action I caused action to be 692. Mr HODGE, to the Minister for Health: taken in the Industrial Commission today seeking an order that the men (1) What was the total recurrent conform to their responsibilities. A expenditure for each of the teaching compulsory conference commenced at hospitals in 1980-8Si? (2) What is the estimated total recurrent approximately 3.30 p.m. and my latest expenditure by each of the teaching advice is that the conference is hospitals in 198 1-82? continuing. (3) For each of the five teaching hospitals, what was the amount of recurrent expenditure in 1980-SI on (a) wages and salaries; (b) all other health care costs? MINING: DIAMONDS (4) For each of the live teaching hospitals, Agreemenf: Model what is the estimated amount of 691. Mr BRYCE, to the Minister for Resources recurrent expenditure in 198 1-82 on Development: (a) wages and salaries; (b) all other health care costs? My question relates to the proposed Mr YOUNG replied: between the State of Western agreement 1 thank the member for some notice of Australia and the Ashton Joint Venture. the question the answer to which is as I ask- follows- 5 (I) Fremn tlesiHospital ...... 29 850 000) King EdwardMemorial (1) Will the Minister indicate Hospital...... 17 655 700 PrincessMargarCi Hospital... 24 183 700 which Acts from which other Royal PerilsHoSpital ...... o7230.. 900 parts of the world has the Sir Charles Cairdncr Hospital 48 11I11300 Government been using as a Note-All figures rounded to nearest basis for its comparisons? $100. (2) Would the Minister be good tl Fremasilo Hospital_...... 30 606800 King Edward Memorial enough to table copies of those Hospital ...... 191611200 Acts, presuimably from South PrincessMargarci Hospital...... 258645100 Royal PertlsHospital ...... 8$7638900 Africa and other relevant Sir CharlesCairdser Holspital 51 315 6WO countries, for the information Notc-excludes possible wage increases of members? in 1981-82 at this time. JWednesday, 28 October 19811 502952

(a) EDUCATION: PRE-SCHOOL (3) Wages& Waries (b, Teachers (including All other .hea sessionalStarf) care cos 694. Mr PEARCE, to the Treasurer:

FreMantlk tospiltl 229t5 300 6934 700 Further to moy questions without notice King Qd'srd of last Thursday. and yesterday, is the iensoril Hospital 13 243 100 4 412 600 Promes Nlargacci Treasurer now in a position to explain llaspitl 18973 100 5210600 the contradiction between the amount Rn~at Penthhospital 57 219 300 235!04 400 allocated For pre-school teachers in his Sit Chocks Cairdner 11Mpitl2 34 130900 1)971 700 Budget, and the reported statements and letters from the Minister for Education Note-all figures rounded to nearest that the number of teachers was to be $100 reduced due to budgetary restraints? (4) (a) and (b) This break-down is to Sir CHARLES COURT replied: be provided by each teaching As promised, I had the matter hospital by 31 October 1981, as researched to enable me to give the requested when the allocations were member a considered answer. I was advised. rather disappointed that he adopted the attitude yesterday that the Government was trying to avoid the answer: far from it. He will have observed from the answer I gave to his original question that a satisfactory explanation was MINING: DIAMONDS provided for this and many other things which appear in the Budget, if only he Security Officers would follow them through and have regard for the flow-on which will occur, 693. Mr CARR, to the Minister for Police and and the changes which are taking place. Traffic: The member asked the following question- (1) Have discussions taken place involving the Government and/or the Police Force Can the Treasurer explain to the with the Ashton Joint Venture House why in his Budget presented concerning the employment of private to the Parliament on Tuesday of security officers? last week he allowed for an allocation for the expenditure on (2) Have the discussions considered the teachers of pre-school centres on granting to private security officers of the assumption that there would be powers of search and detainment which the same number of teachers in pre- normally are available only to police school centres in 1982 as there were officers? in 1981 and, three days later, the Minister for Education has (3) Does the Government Propose to amend announced that that number of legislation to provide for South African teachers is being reduced by style private security measures? between a third and a half because of the constraints of budgetary expenditure? Mr HASSELL replied: The answer is as follows- (1) to (3) Although I have no wish to avoid The details provided on staff the question, the basic responsibility for numbers and salary costs are shown such matters lies with the Minister for for informative purposes and in Resources Development, as he is the support of the appropriation sought Minister responsible for dealing with for expenditure on salaries and any arrangements which may be made w'ages. with the Ashton Joint Venture. I think the question should properly be directed in accordance withi our normal to him. Dractie. the staff numbers refer to 5030 5030[ASSEMBLY]

establishment as at I July 1981 and taken out of the departmental vote so the figures for 1981-82 the cost of that the benefit of possible savings are employing those staff Car a full spread over the whole Budget, and all year. departments derive a benefit. Mr Pearce: Have you researched the number Any savings for employment for of teachers where vacancies will not be part of the year, because of filled in this way? resignations or other staff Sir CHARLES COURT: I could not be movements, are included in the precise about it, but the figure about item "savings on staff turnover, and which I am talking is a global figure for delays in filling vacancies and the whole of the department and not just accrued salaries brought forward". for the section of the department referred to by the member for Gosnells. The saving resulting from the reduction in pre-school teachers is included in this item. EDUCATION: HIGH SCHOOLS Hence there is no contradiction between the details provided in the Driver Training: Programme Budget and the statement made by 695. Mr COWAN, to the Minister for the Minister for Education. Education: In the Budget speech the Treasurer, By way of amplification, because this when announcing the elimination of the could be something which members will student driver education programme, be considering in relation to the Budget indicated alternative programmes were Estimates, I refer the member to being developed. I ask- Division 59, which deals with education. (1) Is the Minister aware that high Item I deals with pre-school centres and school principals have been teaching staff, and if one turns to the instructed to advise year I I bottom of the second page of that item students to make their own one sees the heading "Savings on staff arrangements for driving turnover, and delays in filling vacancies instruction in 1982? and accrued salaries brought forward". (2) Is an alternative programme in This practice is necessary in all fact being developed? departments because if it is not followed, (3) What is the estimated cost of we create an impossible situation. The providing the driver education Treasury, in framing a Budget, must fix programme? an item as at I July and make an estimate of savings for the year. Then, Mr GRAYDEN replied: any adjustments calculated must be (1) I am not aware such an instruction has taken up in balancing the estimate. been given to students. This is one of the very difficult parts of (2) An alternative driver education Budget procedure, because Treasury programme is being developed at cannot be sure just what savings there present. In the past, there has been a lot will be. For example, people resign from of criticism of high school driving the department, the positions are programmes inasmuch as they have been advertised, and people do not apply. limited to particular schools; the scheme has been too costly to extend to all high However, this must be provided for, otherwise, at the end of the year, the schools. It was felt some schools were various departments finish up with a being placed in a privileged position and a lot of criticism was generated as a large sum of money unallocated which result, means they would not be making the best use of the Budget. It is a matter of (3) I do not have figures of that kind, and at good sense; all Governments-not only this stage I am not in a position to advise the cost of the courses which this one-have made such estimates in their Budgets. The estimated savings are currently are being formulated. [Wednesday, 28 October 1981] 5031

RoyalPeril Hosp ...... 4930 200 COMMUNITY WELFARE: EMERGENCY Sir Charles Osirdner Hospital ..... 1S87800 RELIEF In all cases these increases allow for the Unemployment Relief flow-on of award increases which 696, Mr WILSON, to the Minister for occurred in 1980-81 and the effect of a Community Welfare: 27th pay in 1981-82, or in the case of (I) is he aware that the Federal Sir Charles Gairdner Hospital, the Government is attempting to amend effects of a 27th pay in 1980-81. section l07(5)(a) of the Social Services However, for Fremantle Hospital, Act to deny income to persons railing to allowance has also been made for the meet eligibility requirements of the effects in 198 1-82 of the closure of the words test and to diminish the rights of Bicton Annexe in March, 1981, and the the unemployed and their spouses? additional cost of the opening of the (2) Is he aware of the implications for the relief branch of the Department for theatres in the South Terrace additions. Community Welfare and emergency (2) (a) Nil. These additional costs are relief agencies of this amendment, which added to each hospital's allocation is before the House of Representatives as they occur up to the limit of today? funds available to the department (3) Does he intend to take any action over for this purpose in 1981-82. the matter? (b) Nil. In accordance with the usual Mr H-ASSELL replied: practice, the need to make any increase will be (I) No. allowance for this (2) On a previous occasion when issues of obviated by the effects of staff turnover, as most of the this nature were raised, although in replacement staff would be on another context, there were some implications for the department and its either lower grades or the same classifica tion. budget in terms of emergency relief. At that time we took the matter up with the (c) Nil. The department is currently Commonwealth authorities. assessing the requirements of each (3) In view of the question I will certainly hospital for additional staff as a be looking at this matter. result of the new health insurance arrangements.

HOSPITA LS: TEAC H I NC Recurrent Expenditure MINING: DIAMONDS 697. Mr HODGE, to the Minister for Health: Security officers 698. Mr CARR, to the Minister for Resources (1) What allowance has been made for increases in wages and salaries in the Development: recurrent expenditure budgets of each of My question relates to a question I the teaching hospitals in 1981-82? asked the Minister for Police and (2) Of the allowance, if any, what is the Traffic, who asked that it be directed to provision made by each teaching the Minister for Resources hospital in 198 1/82 for- Development. (a) adjustments in award wages and salaries; (1) Have discussions taken place (b) incremental adjustments to wages between the Government and the and salaries: and Ashton joint venturers concerning (c) increases in the number of staff the employment of private security employed? agents by the joint venturers? Mr YOUNG replied: (2) Have those discussions involved granting to those private security agents the powers of search and () FrcmnuldeHosplal ...... 424 300 detention normally available only to King Edwsrd Memorial Hospital. 1 1230OD0 PrincessMargaret Hospital...... 1 370000 the Police Force? 5032 5032ASSEM BLY]

(3) Does the Government propose to Mr H-ASSELL replied:. amend legislation to provide the (1) The union certainly does have a pay type of private security operation claim which is current; that pay claim in which exists in South Africa? fact has been the subject of some comment already. However, M r P. V. JONES replied: notwithstanding the extent and impact (1) to (3) Without being specific about the of it on the Fire Brigade Board budget, actual discussions which have occurred it has been the subject, with my it is quite obvious that the negotiations authority, of preliminary discussions and is have gone on for a long time and have with the Public Service Board included consideration of adequate now listed for hearing in the Industrial security arrangements. Security is very Commission on, I think, 6 November. much a key part of this development. (2) There is hardly any reason on the Discussions have been held with the grounds of some unresolved dispute that Commissioner of Police and his officers the firemen who are rostered. on duty as part of the general negotiations. The tomorrow need to leave their posts to go employment of people involved in this to the meeting. Further, it is obvious area has not fallen within the there are literally dozens, if not umbrella of what we have been speaking hundreds, of firemen who are not about, but it is a point that will be rostered for duty tomorrow who could addressed in due-course. As to what represent their colleagues at the TLC legislation would be involved, the meeting. member would have to wait and see. MINISTER OF THE CROWN: MINISTER Mr Davies: Have you discussed it with the FOR RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT Minister for Police and Traffic, or only Press Statement with the Commissioner of Police? 700. Mr DAVIES, to the Minister for Resources Development: Mr P. V. JONES: The Minister for Police anid Traffic indicated that negotiations Could he advise the House of the were being carried out through the commitments and undertakings the Opposition has made with the trade office of the Minister for Resources union movement for benefits which Development and his officers, which is would be granted to it on Labor correct. I am now providing the obtaining office both State and information requested. As to what federally, as he claimed today in a news legislation might be required, no final bulletin on radio station 6PR. decision has been made. Mr P. V. JONES replied: 1 assume the member for Victoria Park is referring to a comment I made in Sydney which, I gather, has been referred to radio stations over here. It is clear to everyone that the trade union TRADE UNION movement has been involved with the Labor Party in avoiding certain Fire Brigade Employees' Union requirements of the Trade Practices Act. 699. Mr SHALDERS, to the Chief Secretary: Proof of this is quite clearly coming out in the Royal Commission in Victoria (1) Does the Fire Brigades Employees' into the operation of the Builders' Industrial Union currently have a pay Labourers Federation. claim before the Public Service Board? Mr Parker: Not affiliated. (2) Does the Minister consider that firemen Mr P. V. JONES: Similarly the proof is not rostered for duty tomorrow could found-as we were advised in adequately represent the views of their Sydney-in aflswers given to Japanese colleagues at tomorrow's Trades and concern regarding the export of raw Labour Council meeting? materials in this State, the way in which [Wednesday, 28 October 19811 503303

the Labor Government in New South of Western Australia as a supplier of Wales has railed to come to grips with iron ore to the world market and to solve the problems of the ship loading in the Some Of the problems in the Pilbara, coal industry, and in not taking on the particularly with regard to that aspect of unions on that matter. As the member the operations there? would be aware if he were to see the Mr P. V. JONES replied: situation that exists at Newcastle, Port Kembla, . and Wollongong, a large I am Sure the member needs no number of ships are continually held up reminding whatsoever of the tremendous because of the policy of the Labor effort which has to be made not only by Government in New South Wales, the me, but also by the Government, the deal it has done with the unions, and its companies, and the community at large failure to come to grips with exporting to ensure the reputation of this country raw materials from this country. in general, and this State in particular. as a reliable supplier not simply of iron ore, but of all raw materials, is maintained. We have had to keep up our TOTALISATOR AGENCY BOARD good reputation despite the Opposition to Leinster which I referred a moment ago, and With no help from the Opposition and 701. Mr COYNE, to the Chief Secretary: people like the member For Ascot. Could the Minister advise me what impediments are preventing the provision of a fully computerised betting TOWN PLANNING service for the Leinster TAB agency? Could he indicate when such a service Perch City might be introduced?! 703. Mr DAVIES, to the Minister for Urban Mr HASSELL replied: Development and Town Planning: I thank the member for some notice of I refer to the Minister's expressed the question, the answer to which is as concern regarding the capricious use by follows- the Perth City Council of its discretion in relation to town planning matters A Telecom data line is not available surrounding the proposed car park at Leinster and this prevents the development between Hay and Murray Totalisator Agency Board providing Streets. I thoroughly support and a fully computerised service. The endorse the Minister's comments. board has no indication as to when Would the Minister tell us whether a data line might be made there have been any further available. developments from her office in regard to that matter which, in my opinion, is very serious? MINING: IRON ORE Mrs C RA IG replied:. World Market I do not know that I made any 702. Mr BRYCE. to the Minister for Resources capricious statements- Development: Mr Davies: No, I did not mean that. Would the Minister be good enough Lo Mrs CRAIG:. I am sorry, I misunderstood indicate to the Chamber what he has the comment. I believe the member been able to achieve during his period in referred to a capricious decision about office as Minister for Resources which I made a comment. If I remember Development to improve the reputation correctly, the comment was to the effect 5034 [ASSEMBLY]

that I was disappointed there had not indicated that the traffic study would be been a call for a'traffic study in the area carried Out over the next two weeks. concerned. When I made that comment I had Other than making that inquiry, of misconstrued what was written in the course, the honourable member would Press, because it was not clear that a motion had been carried to the effect know that the Perth City Council, with that the development would not proceed the autonomy it has in relation to until such time as a traffic study in the matters of this sort, has made a decision area had been provided. This morning I had reason to speak to one of the With which Government has no right to officers of the Perth City Council who interfere.