Journal of Ethnology and Folkloristics 11 (2): 137–143 DOI: 10.1515/jef-2017-0017

NOTES AND REVIEWS

INTERVIEW WITH PROFESSOR SIMON J. BRONNER

According to an American Folklore Society Folklore at Pennsylvania State University, (AFS) inside joke, Simon Bronner bears a Harrisburg; and yet, this knowledge goes far striking resemblance to Alan Dundes. Many a beyond academia and the USA. true word is spoken in jest, and this compari- son goes beyond facial similarity: Bronner is a You wrote your dissertation in the 1970s renowned figure within folklore studies with and early 1980s at Indiana University, the wide knowledge and an impressive record acclaimed research centre for folklore, eth- of influential writing. He has written about nomusicology and humanities. Who were topics as diverse as Jewish and children’s your teachers? How did these years shape folklore, material culture and masculinity, your later academic career and your under- campus traditions and Internet folklore, to standing of folklore? name just a few. His most cited works are I came to Indiana University with my MA monographs as different as American Folklore from the Cooperstown Graduate Program, Studies: An Intellectual History (1986), Consum- which was organized on the European model ing Visions: Accumulation and Display of Goods of ethnology or folklife with a heavy empha- in America, 1880–1920 (1989), and Explaining sis on American material culture and commu- Traditions: Folk Behavior in Modern Culture nity life. Louis C. Jones, Roderick J. Roberts, (2011). What distinguishes Bronner’s writ- and Bruce Buckley, who were experts in folk ing is an accessible style that attracts more art, architecture, and music were the promi- and more readers, without watering down nent folklorists there. At Indiana, I became complex ideas. Moreover, Bronner is a highly more exposed to the study of oral tradition regarded teacher who mentored several gen- in a global context. One of the unexpected erations of influential folklore students. He surprises of that experience were classes with has been a vivacious promoter of folklore Estonian folklorist Felix Oinas who taught studies in academia, as well as outside of it. Finnish, Baltic, and Russian folklore. I was Just to name one of his multiple activities, in awe of his erudition, linguistic abilities Bronner assiduously popularises folklore (in addition to speaking multiple languages studies in the American Folklore Society’s besides Estonian and English, he also taught History and Folklore Section Facebook page, Church Slavonic at Indiana), and global bib- regularly posting meaningful pieces on new liographic knowledge. He was especially publications, dates important to folklore stud- influential in guiding my thinking about ies, and biographies of folklorists (in doing the link of folklore and politics, particularly so working toward the creation of a much- on issues of nationalism. I had already read needed international biographical dictionary about American nationalism, but he gave me of folklorists). Continuing the tradition of a profound comparative perspective from Indiana’s prominent folklore program, where his work on Finland, the Baltic countries, he studied, Bronner masterfully conveys his and the Soviet Union. There is no doubt that prizewinning knowledge as a Distinguished Richard Dorson was the face of folklore at Professor Emeritus of American Studies and Indiana, and from him I learned historical

Notes and Reviews 137 perspectives on the United States. I also What kinds of change have you seen in served as his editorial assistant and in that American and international folkloristics capacity I learned life-long lessons about since you entered the field? writing, editing, and publication in addi- I would say that the biggest change is the tion to administrative visions for expand- rising inquiry into the mediation of folklore ing and promoting folklore studies (I later and processes of traditionalizing. When directed a folklore program and thought I first studied folklore, there was a certain of him often). My research – field study of purist attitude in defining as well as collect- woodcarvers in southern Indiana – that led ing folklore. Folklorists wanted to find pri- to my dissertation was with Warren Roberts, marily oral material unpolluted by popular who had made the move from the historic– culture and from people usually in isolated geographic school of narrative studies to rural enclaves that had remained stable ethnological studies of art and architecture. over centuries. There was a great skepti- A valuable experience with him was the cism of organized ‘folk festivals’ and com- fieldwork class that he led away from cam- mercialized ‘folk singers’ (or for that matter, pus in southern Indiana. It was from that the value of ‘race’ and ‘hillbilly’ records, experience that my dissertation research although now they constitute a trove of arose and other lasting work on foodways, evidence for traditional music and regional architecture, and legendry. Allowing me to culture). Dorson, who I mentioned earlier, make more connections of North America encouraged thinking about “folklore in the to European ethnology and ethnic stud- modern world” and the emergence of new ies was the eminent Hungarian folklor- folklore rather than the search for unadul- ist Linda Dégh who served as an adviser terated relics of tradition. At the same time, throughout my career in addition to my he drew a sharp line between folklore and undergraduate folklore adviser at Bingham- ‘fakelore’. Moving beyond those early con- ton Bill Nicolaisen. Other professors were troversies, folklorists have been eager since probably less renowned and prolific, but the 1970s to address folklore mediated, and nonetheless influential on emphasizing the indeed generated, by television, copiers and broad scope of folklore: Mary Ellen Brown facsimile machines, computers, and now the on literature and British folklore, William Internet and smartphones. Instead of dis- Wiggins on African and African-American missing ‘fakelore’, folklorists have increas- lore, and Roger Janelli on anthropological ingly examined the process of traditionaliz- perspectives and Asian folklore. Certainly ing events and texts within the context of a those years at Indiana were also shaped by modernizing world. They represent a more my student cohort with many late-night dis- objective consideration of this process with cussions about the future of folklore stud- terms such as ‘folklorism’ and ‘invented (or ies. We also worked together on establish- what I call ‘managed’) tradition’. Indeed, ing Trickster Press and editing ambitious tradition, once taken for granted, is also publications such as Folklore Forum (which receiving more critical inquiry. Along with I edited), Journal of the Folklore Institute, and that inquiry about tradition as a malle- Indiana Folklore. Many of those relationships able process is the expansion of the social in public and academic folklore work (for worlds that produce and maintain folklore. example Carl Lindahl, Steve Siporin, Tom Whereas regional and ethnic groups domi- Carter, Elissa Henken, Egle Zygas, Erika nated the textbooks of an earlier generation, Brady, Peter Voorheis) have continued to today’s handbooks cover family, occupa- be maintained at conferences, publications, tional, urban, LGBTQ, organizational, gen- and projects. Annually, we pick up threads der, fan, and friendship interactions, among of conversation that began long ago. other identities. Not only is the awareness of

138 JOURNAL OF ETHNOLOGY AND FOLKLORISTICS 11 (2) multiple and overlapping identities within of Pennsylvania, Henry Glassie of Indiana our experience evident in folklore and folk- University, and Patricia Turner of Univer- life studies, but so too are those out in the sity of California, Los Angeles, but this year world as a result of the digital revolution. that circle expanded as I was happy to meet And the mediation evident in computers participants at the meeting who I have been that allows us to communicate all over the or will be able to greet again in my planned globe also leads to thinking about digital 2017–2018 lectures in Latvia, Estonia, Fin- culture in relation to what came before, and land, India, and China. what might come after. How would you characterise the AFS and Most recently, in 2017, the AFS held its its roles in scholarship and in society, both 128th annual meeting in Minneapolis. in the US and internationally? What were the highlights of this meeting The American Folklore Society has embraced for you? a role in responding to current events and On a personal level, the meeting was an movements. Probably more than in other opportunity to connect with many con- folklore organizations in which I participate, tributors to an ambitious reference-work the AFS features in its communications and project I am editing for Oxford University its annual meeting opportunities to relate Press: Oxford Handbook of American Folklore scholarship to news of the day. Perhaps and Folklife Studies. With 43 chapters (pro- because of the large proportion of members jected over 1000 pages), you can imagine in the public sector, and concerns for the con- that I was engaged in many hallway con- temporary world, the AFS has had an activ- versations about the scope and content of ist component. At the 2017 annual meeting, the work. I was heartened at the meeting to many sessions, for example, were concerned see many presenters who I had mentored with the ‘fake news’ and dealing with the as students coming through our program ‘age of Trump’. Of major concern this year at Penn State. Spontaneously, I organized has been a proposal by the controversial US a dinner and sent word out through social President to abolish national endowments media, not knowing who would respond. for the arts and humanities, which would With the packed schedule of the meeting, not only adversely affect many folklorists, I expected only a handful of attendees, but would also impair traditional communi- and we kept needing to add chairs until ties across the country. Many sections of the we had more than 20 students and alumni AFS, such as the Latino, Social Justice, and present. I felt a parental pride in seeing the Environmental sections, took up discussion success that graduates had enjoyed. I had of recent natural disasters in Puerto Rico a similar feeling at a reception for mentors and Texas. Issues of racial, sexual, and gen- and participants in a Mellon Foundation der equality both within the profession and publishing initiative called Folklore Stud- the world permeate many forums. The AFS ies in the Multicultural World, which ended as the largest member organization devoted last year. I served as a mentor for a dozen to folklore has also been active in forging or so writers over the last five years, and at international ties and arrangements with the reception was able to see the fruits of SIEF and Chinese folklore organizations, their labor in attractive books on display. I but more can be done to enhance global always appreciate forging community with connection. For my part, I chaired the AFS long-time colleagues at the meeting, such as committee to recognize outstanding folklor- Wolfgang Mieder of the University of Ver- ists with the accolade of “honorary interna- mont, Elizabeth Tucker of Binghamton Uni- tional members of the Fellows of the Ameri- versity, Dan Ben-Amos of the University can Folklore Society”.

Notes and Reviews 139 You are the convener of the History and At the last AFS meeting you received an Folklore Studies section of the AFS, which award for your research in the field of is also active in Facebook. What is to be children’s folklore. Congratulations! In gained from engaging in the history of your work you have shown that children’s folklore studies and disciplinary histories culture is something autonomous formed more broadly? of distinct expressive agency, and that it In 1973, Dan Ben-Amos wrote an influen- cannot be seen as an adapted version of tial essay coinciding with the founding of traditions passed on by adults. Indeed, the section titled “History of Folklore Stud- some folklorists have claimed that chil- ies: Why Do We Need It?” It set the tone for dren adapt beliefs and elements of culture much of the movement to document and that have been abandoned by adults, that interpret the history of folklore studies. He the world of children is a kind of conglom- was concerned as I am today with establish- erate of survivals. In your view, what are ing a continuous intellectual legacy for folk- the characteristic features of children’s cul- lore and folklife studies that culminates with ture? How does children’s culture relate to the establishment of a ‘discipline’ to take its that of adults? place alongside major branches of learning. My view of children is couched in a life- Especially at that time, it was important to course perspective. I introduced a folklore differentiate what a folklorist does, and did, course at Penn State on culture and aging from anthropologists, historians, and liter- that proceeded from the theory that folklore ary scholars. Much of the effort was to pro- has persisted and is meaningful behavio- file outstanding individuals who identified rally because it serves an essential human as folklorists (and the paths they blazed), need of adapting to life changes. Children and inquire about the origins and develop- engage in folklore a great deal because they ment of folklore as a field of inquiry. Since go through more social, physical, and cog- then, the function of disciplinary history nitive changes than at any other time of has shifted, some at my behest as editor of their lives. Such a life-course perspective Folklore Historian and various publications, demands attention to developmental psy- to joining folklore to intellectual history and chology and awareness of the physical as epistemology broadly. I asked for histories well as cognitive changes occurring in our to engage the sociology of ideas and con- lives and the ways that parents and commu- template how folkloristic work initiated as nities frame traditions to guide or alter life well as joined intellectual movements in the journeys. Rather than view children as ‘lit- context of their time and place. Thus folk- tle savages’ (from whence the evolutionary lorists can contemplate the significance of idea of survivals comes from), ‘little adults’, their contributions alongside others as well ‘passive vessels of information’, or repre- as the communities with which they work sentatives of some ‘collective unconscious’, on broad concepts such as democratization, much of the contemporary work in chil- multiculturalism, nationalism, individual- dren’s folklore interprets the simultaneous ism, and of course, tradition. Another devel- continuity of children’s folklore through opment, and function of the history of folk- generations and the change in it as well as lore studies, is organizational. In assessing innovation wrought by every generation. the role of folklore as a branch of learning, This is where your reference to “expres- histories take up the processes, and strate- sive agency” comes in and is particularly gies, for integrating folklore programming important to not only thinking of the impact in the university, schools, corporations, gov- of childhood traditions on the forma- ernment, and the professions. tion of ethos throughout our lives but also about the distinctiveness of childhood as a

140 JOURNAL OF ETHNOLOGY AND FOLKLORISTICS 11 (2) subaltern group culture. For folkloristics, your current interests is strongman com- many questions of the origin of narrative, petitions. What can be learned about such belief, and fantasy can be addressed in the events, physical culture and athletics in dynamic process of adult cultural transmis- general, by means of looking at them from sion to children (for example game, gesture, the point of view of folklore studies? story), and how they are interpreted and Well put. Sports have often been overlooked reframed, often subversively (for example because they appear too organized to consti- joke, parody, play) by children. tute folklore, but I find that they encapsulate fundamental beliefs and customs about age In your recent monograph Folklore: The and the body – and the embodiment of cul- Basics (2017) you have used an action-ori- tural values. As bodylore, sport is basic to ented approach and define folklore as “tra- our expressive communication; many com- ditional knowledge put into, and drawing mon proverbs, legends, and folk vocabulary from, practice”. How does your conceptu- come from sport, and have national contexts alisation of folklore differ from textual or in sport preferences. In my book Following philological approaches? Tradition (1998), I presented quantitative Centering practice in the conceptualization data from keyword searches of American of folklore emphasizes the question “Why newspapers that the most frequent pairing do people repeat (express) themselves?” of tradition was with the rhetoric of sports, The question frames what most people do community, and family – in that order. relative to the force of modernization, which Teams are considered intense high-context implies value placed on individualism, nov- communities that promote insider ritu- elty, and originality. Textual and philologi- als and stories among participants, even in cal approaches often work to identify out- highly organized sports such as baseball, standing forms and lofty talents responsible soccer, and basketball. Even though at a for culture rather than locating the ways college and professional level many sport- that people navigate everyday life. That is ing events are televised, people still flock to not to say that practice approaches do not stadiums and arenas so that they can partici- analyze texts and speech. They often do, pate as fans in the event framed to represent but as representative of practices – that is, a special cultural identity. One can appreci- repeatable, variable actions. So, practice- ate their significance in the recent headlines oriented folklorists might ask about speak- over ritualized protests by players (“taking ing, singing, working not only as behavior a knee” during the playing of the national but those that in their actions are symbolic anthem to bring attention to racial ine- in themselves. It is not just what is said, but quality and violence) at National Football engaging in saying it. Separating this action League pre-game ceremonies. I have been and identifying symbolism helps reveal the drawn as a folklorist to strongman contests way people think – before they act – and because of the way they incorporate mythol- how it figures in their lives. ogy of giant heroes in events such as Atlas Stones, Hercules Hold and Fingal’s Fingers. Conceptualisation of folklore not as The sport, however, is hardly a reflection heritage but as practice means an open of society’s values; in emphasizing strength approach. You have not seen folklore as a associated with pre-industrial life (speed bounded and autonomous realm but rather is often associated with a corporate service as a pervasive expressive phenomenon. and information economy) it appears to rep- You have studied versatile fields such as resent pre-modern community that crowns folk arts, architecture, masculinity and in the contests a Hercules hero. The human– gender, blues music, and hunting. One of machine struggle comes into play in events

Notes and Reviews 141 such as the truck (airplane, bus, train) pull, of the humanities and arts in these units. Viking lift, Conan’s wheel, and car deadlift. My message at the seminar is to elaborate The relation of the dominant strongman to on the answer I usually gave. I often had the rise of strongwoman contests also intro- the pluck to insist that the question should duces gender issues that are projected into not be about my preparation in the past, but the arena, or cultural frame of the event that on why reforming humanities folkloristi- contains paradoxes of our lives. Its func- cally was imperative for the future. Focus- tion has also evolved from localized status ing on my comparative scholarly experi- to national identities. Many of the countries ence for extended stays in the United States, featured in strongman contests are locations Japan, and the Netherlands, I presented desiring attention on the world stage: Ice- three themes of folkloristic thought that land, Denmark, Finland, Latvia, Lithuania, present challenges to the way the humani- Estonia, Scotland, Poland. The influence of ties are organized, and suggested the ways strongman is also apparent at a vernacu- that reorienting future work toward these lar level with gyms in many communities themes can result in a solution to the bal- that promote a cultural identity of a strong- lyhooed “crisis in the humanities”. The man and strongwoman. Traditional knowl- themes that I addressed were democratic, edge of nutrition, drugs, and techniques is vernacular and incipient. passed, often within sight, and earshot, of Democratic. In keeping with the ideal signs such as “Change Your Body, Change of the United States as the first modern Your Life”, “Know that Commitment is a democracy, folklore-minded humanists Muscle”, “When Life Gets Harder, Chal- established a cultural study that would lenge Yourself to Be Stronger”, “Feeling the be diverse, rather than seeking romantic Burn”, and “Who’s Your Daddy?” nationalism, by representing the participa- tion in national culture of various groups. You visited Estonia in connection with the That is not to say that Americans thought 10th anniversary celebration for the Journal all these groups to be equal, and a task for of Ethnology and Folkloristics, published many folklore-minded humanists was to jointly by the Estonian National Museum, recognize inequities by giving attention the Estonian Literary Museum’s Estonian to groups facing domination or not given Folklore Archives, and the University of credit for their artistic, and therefore intel- Tartu’s departments of ethnology and of lectual, capabilities. Folklorists showed folklore. What were the main messages in artistry and tradition, and therefore claims the talk that you gave at the Humanities to cultural integration, in the traditions of within International and National Schol- often marginalized groups. In this way folk- arly Contexts seminar at the University of lorists contributed to the larger movement Tartu on November 13, 2017? to democratize the arts and open up the I have served as an administrator of a school humanities to participation in everyday life. of humanities as well as a professor of folk- Even in Japan where social hierarchy and lore. In publication, I served as editor of cultural homogeneity are firmly entrenched, a broad American Studies encyclopedia I found that folklore raised inquiry in a num- as well as more focused folklife reference ber of disciplines about representing various works. As both dean and editor, my back- communities rather than treat the monolith ground as a folklorist was often questioned, of the society. In the Netherlands, I encoun- especially by the dominant wings of history, tered a long-standing legacy of multicul- art, and literature. In interviews, I was often tural tolerance, but ‘Golden Age’ thinking asked how my disciplinary background meant that it was the ‘Dutch masters’ who prepared me to relate to the broad expanse were held aloft as learning worth knowing

142 JOURNAL OF ETHNOLOGY AND FOLKLORISTICS 11 (2) rather than thinking about process and local found evidence of intact transplanted cus- authority. Thinking of folklore philosophi- toms, but they specially pointed to tradi- cally reoriented this thinking toward the tions that emerged with American charac- cultural ramifications, and hybridizations, teristics. Folklorists challenged the ancient of various groups being involved in polity foundation of the humanities by noting as well as society. how American traditions observed as they Vernacular or localization. Because of were practiced reflected a forward-looking, attention by leading American folklorists to inventive nation. What if the humanities the separation, interaction, and hybridiza- were less about the past and lofty talents, tion of various groups in the production of and more about how people think and act practices viewed, and heard, as ‘tradition’, humanistically? That would incorporate folklore studies emphasized the ‘folk’, or folklore not necessarily as an object or text social aspect, in folklore. This perspective for which a canon could be devised but a did not isolate “folk” groups as static peas- frame around culture that invites grasping ants or remote, often romanticized occupa- the way the things we do express we are. In tions such as sailors. It was vernacular in the this mode of inquiry, we can also adjust our sense of often being localized, even if con- manifestations or applications to plow back nected to apparently global, often mobile ideas from whence they came in communi- traditions. As studies evolved, the goal of ties so as to make the humanities relevant to identifying community with folkloric evi- the issues and problems of the day. dence extended to different situations as mobile social frames for the emergence of Introduction by Anastasiya Astapova folklore. The artificial boundary wall of the Questions formulated by Anastasiya humanities with social sciences therefore Astapova, Elo-Hanna Seljamaa and often came into question, since folklorists Ülo Valk were concerned for social contexts as well as texts of culture. Those texts in a vernac- ular-centered perspective were analyzed References for connections to everyday culture rather than a canon of work known by a learned or Ben-Amos, Dan. 1973. History of Folklore Stud- refined person. ies: Why Do We Need It? – Journal of the Folk- Incipient. The European as well as Asian lore Institute (Special Issue: American Folklore Historiography) 10 (1/2): 113–124. humanistic tradition was built upon rever- Bronner, Simon J. 1986. American Folklore Studies: ence for ancient civilization and learning An Intellectual History. Lawrence, KS: Univer- of the classics. To be sure, American higher sity Press of Kansas. education emphasized this tradition to the Bronner, Simon J., ed. 1989. Consuming Visions: mid-20th century, but affecting scholar- Accumulation and Display of Goods in America, ship was a movement of American studies 1880–1920. New York, NY: Norton. reflecting a developing ‘modern’ American Bronner, Simon J. 1998. Following Tradition: Folk- lore in the Discourse of American Culture. Logan, culture. As the United States proclaimed UT: Utah State University Press. itself a new nation that separated from its Bronner, Simon J. 2011. Explaining Traditions: Folk sources in Europe and Africa, so did folklore Behavior in Modern Culture. Lexington, KY: presented as American reflect an incipient The University Press of Kentucky. contemporaneous quality. It was in process. Bronner, Simon J. 2017. Folklore: The Basics. Lon- That is, it was developing and constantly don; New York, NY: Routledge. being created anew, theory held, in the con- text of peculiar historical and geographic conditions. American folklorists certainly

Notes and Reviews 143