I4M^^*^^^ Ralph Vivienne Thomas Leebosh by Gary Lamphier production, we knew that wasn't going "You're lucky you caught me on a good to be a permanent title. day," Ralph Thomas chuckles. "If you Ralph Thomas : Any film goes through had tried to interview me yesterday, a lot of titles. Vivienne eventually came 1 wouldn't have said three words." up with Ticket To Heaven. At first, I My good fortune this warm July eve­ didn't like it. But I've come around. ning in Toronto is owing to Ralph's pro­ gress at the typewriter earlier in the day. Cinema Canada : Were you consider^ As the writing goes, so goes the writer. ing casting Howie Mandel earlier on ? And since this happened to be an ace Ralph Thomas : I'd gone to Yuk Yuk's day (four solid pages of script), the and seen Howie when I was looking for writer finds himself in an accommodat­ someone to play Larry (later played by ing mood. Saul Rubinek). I didn't want a guy Who Ralph Thomas looks like a school­ was in any way similar to the central teacher. His producer-wife, Vivienne character. Also, I once read that the one Leebosh, could be a painter. It is a powerful story, told by a writer/ thing that can save you in a brainwashing Cinema Canada: Was there any In fact, Thomas is a writer/director/ director who has had first-hand ex­ situation is a sense of humour. So I went doubt about the viability of having R.H. producer of some accomplishment. His perience with fundamentalist religion : to see Howie with this character in as the lead in a commercial film with a credits read like a list of the best Cana­ Ralph Thomas was born in Brazil, the mind: The character is an amateiir budget of $4 million ? dian television dramas of the past son of a fundamentalist missionary. It is comedian at night and an accountant - Vivienne Leebosh: Not niuch different several years : Tyler (which he produced also a good story that is well told by a Mister Straight - during the day. I spent than Nick Mancuso. The fact is, R.H. has and directed). Drying Up The Streets writer/director and producer who an afternoon with Howie playing op­ done a number of films - probably more (producer). The Tar Sands (producer, know the craft of filmmaking. posite R.H. Thompson in the lead role. than Nick, though Nick has worked in co-writer). The Insurance Man From Ticket To Heaven represents what But he was too young for the part. L.A. and is known from Scruples. But we Ingersoll (producer), Dreamspeaker Canadian cinema can be. At the end of have a no-name picture, as far as Holly­ (producer), and Every Person is Guilty this long, dry summer, that comes as Cinema Canada : Did you consider wood is concerned. Whether we used (written by Thomas, produced by Lee­ particularly welcome news. R.H. for the lead ? R.H. or Nick as the lead wouldn't have bosh), to name but a few. Ralph Thomas : We did consider R.H. made one bit of difference. As for our As executive producer of CBC-TV's Cinema Canada : How did Ticket To for the lead, with Nick Mancuso playing investors, they'd never heard of Nick or "For The Record" series in 1976-77, Heaven originate ? Wasn't if initially the deprogrammer. But we flipped that R.H. Thomas, a former Toronto Star reporter called Moonstalkers.' for several reasons. Nick and Saul play Ralph Thomas : I think the investors and editor, was instrumental in estab­ Vivienne Leebosh : The film is adapt­ together much better as friends. R.H. and all the financial types would have lishing the reputation for gutsiness and ed from a series of articles by Josh Freed Domes in at the end as somebody totally preferred a big American naine. At the quality the series still enjoys today. that appeared in the Montreal Star, foreign, totally WASP. He provides a moment, though, I can't imagine anyone Thomas' low-key, contemplative entitled Moonstalkers. Once we got into totally different foil. but Nick playing the lead. To me, the demeanor is misleading: it masks the obsessive drive of a man with a fire in his belly. "I don't know why I care," he once told an interviewer, when asked about his desire to effect social change through his films. "But I do." Ticket To Heaven, Thomas' and Lee- bosh's first theatrical feature, is not unlike most of Thomas' earlier films. It deals with a hot, controversial subject - religious cults - and it does so from a definite point of view. The film's lead - Nick Mancuso - plays David, a Toronto schoolteacher. Fresh from a split-up with his girlfriend, he seeks diversion in the company of friends in California. His friends, it becomes apparent, are mem­ bers of a cult called the Heavenly Chil­ dren. A weekend jaunt to the cult's isolated camp becomes an indefinite stay. David's very human self-doubts and insecurities provide the keyhole through which a repressive and frightening dogma pours in. Within days David is on the streets peddling flowers for some un­ named "messiah." He renounces his family and friends, who, back in Toron­ to, begin to worry about his well-being. A friend (Saul Rubinek) comes after him. A visit to the camp confirms his concerns about David, and a kidnap­ ping is planned. Though David's parents wind up in jail, the kidnapping is suc­ cessful, thus setting the stage for a long and anguished deprogramming process at the hands of ex-cuhist Line Strunk (R.H. Thompson). GaryLamphier is aToronto-basedfree-lance writer and farmer CineMag staff reporter. ^^^

24/Cinema Canada-September 1981 evidence is right there on film. It was people who are coming to get him. defence mechanism. Someone unusual dramatic film, ifs obvious that the the right thing to do. When I decided to go with a comedian enough to have that comedic 'other self characters are invented - by the writer, as the second main character, that con­ - someone able to work with it - goes the director and the actors. Line Strunk Cinema Canada : For what it's worth, ditioned a lot of things fropi then on. into the camp and knows what it is all was invented by Anne Cameron, myself I thought it worked well I was impressed The other thing I wanted was to make a about. Larry is able to do that, and if s and R.H. Thompson. R.H. had a helluva with Mancuso. kidnapping scene that didn't look like really important to his character. lot to do with the way Line slammed Ralph Thomas : He's an extraordinary Mission Impossible. I didn't want it to Ralph Thomas : We still wanted him David back on the bed during the de­ actor. And I'm not saying R.H. couldn't have that look of the television profes­ to be vulnerable, which he is. He starts programming. have carried the role. But it would have sionals. Thaf s not how life is. to succumb. I hadn't decided - nobody had decid­ been different. You have to go with the When we were in Paris, we met this The man with a much greater sense of ed - what kind of dramatic gesture we'd best mix. When you cast a film, you're guy who is editorial page editor of the humour - a very secure sense of humour have at that point. It started vvith R.H. casting personalities as much as you are International Herald Tribune. His - is Eric (Guy Boyd). He doesn't need to saying: 'Maybe I'll burn a picture of actors. If s a lot different than casting a daughter had been in the Unification parade it. It's just there. When he looks father.' When we started rehearsing, the stage play. Church, and when he kidnapped her, at the world, ifs all funny. And if s very idea of pushing David to the bed came. absolutely everything went wrong. It hard to convince somebody who looks R.H. says it was Nick's idea, and Nick Cinema Canada : What role did Ron was a comedy of errors. at everything as if it's monstrously funny attributes it to R.H. But there it is. Cohen have as executive producer ? He had to drive with her in the back that he should sell flowers for a messiah. For people to analyze the film and say Vivienne Leebosh : As his partner, I seat of his car, handcuffed and gagged, I also felt very strongly, on an intuitive 'That's so-and-so and thaf s so-and-so' - had total creative control. It was in the for 24 hours non-stop to Chicago. He level, that the film should have a sort of well, I'm sorry to disappoint them, but it contract. But it never came down to that. only had 60 dollars in his pockets so he slapstick quality. I felt an audience ain't. I wouldn't have the goddamn guts He's a bright man with a lot of creative couldn't afford to get a hotel room, and would welcome a release after all the to go and hire an actor and say : 'Let's do ideas. I did a lot of the financing. We his 'safe' house was in Chicago. He had tension. Besides, the comedy is followed an absolutely perfect representation of overlapped many times and never got just enough money to cover gas.-Even­ by the deprogramming segment, and John F. Kennedy.' Portrayals of real into who had control over yvhat. tually, he had to bum money from the that's 23 hard and heavy minutes long. people are invariably failures. Your strong-arm guys he had brought along. So I have to give the audience a bit of a viewer sees right through it. He will not Cinema Canada : It was a good work­ All the while, the state police, the FBI rest. suspend disbelief. ing relationship ? and the Unification Church - the Moon- The other reason is that I thought it He will suspend disbelief if I have, in Vivienne Leebosh : Yes. ies - were chasing him. Twelve hundred was an interesting counterpoint to the all freedom, created a character who is miles ! madness David (Nick Mancuso) was in­ as separate and different as his own life. Cinema Canada: You touched on She was deprogrammed one hour volved in. That's what we've tried to do. financing and I'd like to pursue it for a before the cops came through the door. When I shoot a scene, and those moment. How did you do with the sale That is not the kidnapping of a profes­ Cinema Canada: You've alluded to characters are in motion, / suspend of units ? sional. If you were to shoot that, there the Moonies. Is this film about them disbelief. They become real to me. And Vivienne Leebosh: We didn't sell would be people screaming and falling specifically ? when ifs really working well, all I'm out. Many films didn't sell out last year. all over each other. I wanted to capture Vivienne Leebosh: In fact, our research worried about is making sure I get the that feeling. covered a lot of different cults. There is camera in the right place to cover. Cinema Canada : Is there an extended Vivienne Leebosh : The other key thing no mention of Reverend Sun Myung offering this year ? here - and our research bears this out - Moon in our film, nor of any guru. We Cinema Canada : Variety described Vivienne Leebosh : Yes. is that the normal person is the easiest feel the subject is broader than that. Ticket as a 'social thriller'; somebody to brainwash. Comedy is mostly a Ralph Thomas: When you make a else called it a 'psychological thriller'. Cinema Canada : Has that closed yet? Vivienne Leebosh : No. It's not very active. Nobody is buying anything this year. The brokers aren't even selling.

Cinema Canada: Like R.H. Thomp­ son, Anne Cameron is someone else you've worked with all along. Did you plan to co-script with her from the start, or did she jump in at some point down the road ? Ralph Thomas : I couldn't get started on Ticket early enough to get the script ready by the time Vivienne figured she needed it. So Anne came in and wrote (the preliminary draft while I finished jwhat 1 was working on at the time.

Cinema Canada : There seemed to be a change of tone about halfway into the film, when Rubinek launched into his comedy routine and started spout­ ing one-liners at the camp. Did it also' change at that point for you in the writing or shooting of it ? Ralph Thomas : How about the con­ ception of it ? In making a film, what you do is push everything to the point where you're not quite sure if it's ridiculous or really worth it. But you always have to push. It's easy to do something every­ body else has done by developing a little craft. All of us can turn out a copy of The Maltese Falcon. But in this film, I was dealing with two story lines : that of the central character, and that of the cavalry who are going to come and grab him. What you want in that situation is as much contrast as possible between him and his world, and the world of those

September 1981 -Cinema Canada/25 IKTER V4^

Another called it 'the ultimate journal­ five years, she is 'dead.' She is no longer serious than investors not getting their They have proven to the world that they istic drama.' How would you describe what she was before. She has become money back. With interest rates where can even take a John Huston and turn it? the .professional camp leader. She is they are, people aren't buying real out a turkey. Vivienne Leebosh : I always refer to it well-fed and kept very healthy because estate ; they're not buying oils; they're So obviously, the key here is not just as a psychological thriller. How do you she has to control and run 80 people. not buying fifas. And they're not buying the development of writers and direc­ see it ? tax shelters. tors, but the development of what I call Cinema Canada : A change of subject. The Italian stock market closed for the creative producer. David O. Selznick Cinema Canada : / would call it a Why did you decide-to leave the CBC ? the first time in 64 years recently. Closed is the archetypal creative producer. He's family film. Ralph Thomas : Essentially, I wanted dead. Why ? Because the bottom was a writer anrf a money-man. He can write Vivienne Leebosh : I agree with you to work with a bigger canvas - which falling out. Things are very tough. The a six-page memo criticizing one shot of there. isn't to say that I wanted to work on a tax shelter doesn't do anything anymore. Hitchcock's, and convince Hitchcock Ralph Thomas : It's a lot of things. It bigger canvas for the rest of my life. In Ralph Thomas : It was exacerbated that he should re-do it. That's going will affect everyone who sees it in a future, I may want to return to a smaller by the CFDC, which was the real agent some. We don't have many of those. slightly different way. Everyone brings one. But basically, it was a matter of size. of the boom. It was as if the city of This isn't just a plug for my wife, but I their own preconceptions, prejudices, Also, the relationship with the. au­ Toronto said : 'We will no longer require happen to work vvith a producer like and personality to a film. I don't expect dience is different. With television, architects and engineers to show cre­ that. She is involved in every aspect of any two people to agree. It depends on you're addressing people who sit in a dentials before putting up their build­ the film. It was her decision to make the your viewpoint. John Donne was a great room, converse with each other, leave, ings. Anyone can design and build if film. Originally, I wasn't that hot on it. poet in the 17th century, a lousy one in come back, whatever. You have to hold they have the money.' Vivienne Leebosh: Because of the 18th and 19th, and great again in the them, affect them. If the city did that, no one would be Ralph's fundamentalist background, he 20th. Donne's words didn't change With film, the audience makes a com­ surprised if virtually all of those build­ didn't want to re-live that whole thing. during that time. Bach was once dis­ mitment. They've paid their bucks to see ings fell down. missed as a hack. Now he's the father of your film. And when they're sitting In the movie business, we had guys Cinema Canada : At this stage of the music. He might disappear again, or be there in the theatre, it becomes a one-to- who were real estate operators one day game, that's history, isn't it ? forgotten in 100 years... one relationship. When the lights go and film directors the next. I'm sorry. I Vivienne Leebosh: When you've down, the crowd disappears. In a sense, spent a lot of time learning how to make been through a heavy experience, you Cinema Canada : Do you think the that gives you a certain freedom. a film and how to write. I've been don't want to re-live it. issues raised by the film actually beg a writing since I was five years old. So Ralph Thomas: It was a very, very larger question — the question of for­ have a lot of other people. heavy experience. No question. feiting your own critical judgement in Vivienne Leebosh: Many people If you had spent two or three hours favour of selling a line, whether it's a have asked : 'Where did you find those per night, and sometimes many hours corporate line, a cult line or whatever ? people in the camp ?' Well, the key is during the day on your knees as a child, Ralph Thomas : You know, the 'nor­ The'normal'person is called that we put a lot of time into this. We pleading with God to let you into heaven, mal' person is called 'normal' because didn't do three movies in one year. We all because there's this strange little he accepts society's norms. He is the 'normal' because he accepts society's did one movie in two years. verse in the Bible that says : you can take easiest to brainwash because he is al­ norms. He is the easiest to brainwash Ralph Thomas : The point is, all of God's name in vain, but you cannot ready a brainwashed individual. He is those people were available. They're invoke the name of the Holy Ghost... I already towing a line. Consequently, he because he is already a brainwashed there to be found and used. Eighty mean, there I am, an eight-year-old kid. is easier to mold into something else. people sat in that room (at the camp), And I read this verse in the Bible. Ifs The so-called 'abnormal' person is individual. The so-called abnormal' and they're 80 marvelous actors. automatic - not that I mouthed the very hard to brainwash. He may be with person is very hard to brainwash... And when I talk to them as a director, words, but that in my mind I would. Just you for one or two days, but then he's on I know what the hell I'm talking about. as an experiment. to something else. Which is why cults I make it my business to know how to So 1 spent four years with God, after are so dangerous. They key on certain talk to an actor. It's insane to think that that, pleading with him to give me a people. They're not interested in dopers someone can be a real estate operator break. If you'd bepn through an ex­ and rubbles. They want successful, today and a film director or producer perience like that, I don't think you'd middle-class achievers, preferably with cinema Canada : When you decided tomorrow. Even worse is when he want to re-live it... money. to get into features, did you have any walks on set and tells the director who Anyway, to get back to the subject of insecurities or doubts about the long- does know what he's doing, to sit aside producers - because thaf s what is really Cinema Canada: Could you be brain­ term viability of the Canadian feature because he wants the scene a different important - we have to develop pro­ washed ? film industry ? Did that concern you ? way. Or he thinks the script is unim­ ducers who can develop a script. In Ralph Thomas : I think it would be Ralph Thomas : It is no surprise to us portant, which is the main mistake effect, super story editors. harder with me because I come from a that there has been a collapse. producers make. fundamentalist background, though I Vivienne Leebosh : Last year, we told Most producers thought putting the Cinema Canada: Are there such never went through a conversion. I was each other that if we didn't do this film deal together was most important - put producers out there, and is the CFDC, bom into it. I was definitely brain­ we'd never do a film because there together a deal and start shooting in washed, no question about that. It took wouldn't be an industry. in your opinion, doing anything to three weeks' time. The fact that there nurture them ? me a good seven or eight years to When things were on the upswing, it was no script was beside the point. deprogram myself. Ralph Thomas : The CFDC still thinks was a low point for us. No one was Well, it is on the point. With no script, a producer is a basically a financial pe^ interested in hiring the creative people. Vivienne Leebosh : (to Ralph) Do you ifs like trying to put up Toronto City Hall son, a kind of glorified accountant. think I could be brainwashed ? Nobody wanted to hear what we had to with no blueprint. It doesn't happen. In the (American) studios, the system Ralph Thomas: Ah, you... I don't say. That was the time for lawyers and know. One can only speak for oneself. accountants to make their movies and is quite different. The Ray Starks, Grant cinema Canada : That's the amazing .Why don't you ask Josh Freed if he get theirs. Tinkers, Norman Lears - all of the suc­ thing. Despite this polarization be­ cessful U.S. producers - are creative thinks he could be brainwashed ? He There are a lot of reasons for the in­ tween the creative people on one hand, people. In the American film industry, went into a camp, and he came out dustry's collapse this year. A prime and the financial people on the other, they're more important than the money- scared. reason is that investors have not had the industry has, this year, managed to raisers. The money-raisers work for their money returned. But the high produceafewfinefilms.Andthey'reby them. Cinema Canada : Didn't you think interest rates have certainly contributed. filmmakers - the same creative people In this country, it doesn't function Kim Cattrall (who plays Ruthie, the Ralph Thomas: Yeah. That came who were around five years before the that way, and I doubt that it will for camp leader) looks a little too healthy, along on top of things. But there were an boom. a while. considering that everyone at the camp awful lot of bad movies made. Ralph Thomas: We've come back was supposed to be undernourished ? Vivienne Leebosh : I was calling in­ We've reasserted ourselves. Cinema Canada : They do have a 40- Vivienne Leebosh : When you reach vestors, and they'd say; 'Listen, I've The fact is, the biggest disasters have year head start on us. a certain status within the cult, you eat been screwed so many times I'd rather been by well-known directors. What throw my money out the window than Ralph Thomas: Yeah... better. Canadian producers have managed to Vivienne Leebosh; A big problem Ralph Thomas : Ifs a process - until put it in a movie. I've had it. How many prove is that they can take major inter- times can I be ripped off ?' Still, last year, too is that I can only make one quality such time as the inner person is, in natioiial directors and have them make movie every one or two years. It takes a effect, totally expunged. Since Ruthie people made movies. bad films. That is the singular 'success' This year, ifs very serious. More lot of energy and time. has been with the family (i.e. the cult) for of the majority of Canadian producers But ifs hard to maAet anywhere 2e/Cinema Canada - September 1981 Ralph Thomas' flimography 1S80-81 Ticket To Heaven, feature film, direc- tor/co-writer (producer: Vivienne I.eebosh) 1978-79 "For The Record " CBC-TV drama series : Cementfaead, director/co-writer, 60 min. Every Person Is Guilty, direc­ Vivienne Leebosh: We weren't a tor/scriptwriter (proilucer; Vivienne part of it anyway. We were broke. Mean­ Leebosh/, 60 min. Genie Awards for while, peer pressure was saying: Best Director, Best Screenplay Ralph, you'd better do a feature. You've Ambush At Iroquois Point, feature got to do one...' But the scripts were so for CBC, director, 90 min. bad he couldn't. 1877 Ralph Thomas : But I didn't think it "For The Record" CBC-TV drama series : was smart, either. And I was right. If I'd Seer Was Here, executive producer, made a bad film then, I wouldn't have 72 min. (directed by Claude Jutra), A made another. Matter of Choice, exec, p., 55 min. (directed by Francis Mankiewicz) Cinema Canada : Did the scripts you Dying Hard, exec, p., 42 min. (directed were offered turn out to be dogs in the by Don Haldanei end ? Drying Up The Streets, exec, p./pro- Ralph Thomas : Oh yeah. Not a single ducer, 86 min (directed by Robin one was ever released. The scripts were Spry) dreadful. Tyler, exec. p./director, S2 min. I'll tell you a story - and this is typical 1976 of the Canadian film industry : I got this "For The Record" CBC-TV drama series t call irom a producer, asking me if I'd be Dreamspeaker, producer 7S min. free to shoot a film in three weeks' time. (directed by Claude Jutra) Winner of I told him I was working on a script, so six Canadian Film Awards, including he says : Well, could you come to my Best TV drama Sometlay Soon, pro­ office to discuss it ?' ducer, .'52 min. (directed by Don Hal- dane) Ada, producer, 57 min (directed I say : Well, I'd like to read it first.' by Claude Jutra) So he says : 'There's no time for that.' The Tar Sands, producer/co-wriler, No bullshit - that's what he said ! I told 57 min. (directed by Peter Pearsonl him I didn't see any point in visiting his Hank, producer/co-writer, 52 min. (di­ office if I hadn't read the script. rected by Don Haldanei 'Well, how do I get the script to you ?' he asks. And I say ; Put it in a cab.' He 197S "Performance" CBC-IV drama series : says : 'Who pays ?' And I say ; Well, The Insurance Man from Inger­ obviously, you do ! You're the one ap­ soll, producer, 52 min. (directed by proaching me.' Peter Pearson) Winner of one Canadian So he says : 'Will you read it right Film Award and one ACTRA award away ?' I say: 'Yes, as soon as it arrives.' What we have he)pe is a people Well, I read it. Then 1 call him up and prnblexn, producer, 52 min (directed ask: 'This is shooting in three weeks' by Francis Mankiewicz) (Vest of Sha­ dows, producer, 52 min. (directed by time ?' He says : 'Uh huh.' Peter Carter) 'First of all,' I say, there's one major problem with this. By my reckoning, it's Katby Karuks is a GrlKzly Bear, pro­ only about 50 minutes long. How are you ducer/writer, 52 min. [directed by Peter Pearson) going to make up the other 40 minutes ?' He says : We'll look after that as we're shooting.' The painful price of a Ticket to Heaven : here, David (Nick Mancuso) and (Plus numerous other credits, too exten­ Saul Rubinek company photo: Lawrie Raskin. sive too list here, dating back to 1368.) Well, the film was shot by another director, and the rough cut was 60 unless you have three or four films distribution - but we're still working on of surprised it wasn't Sunday. Now, minutes long. They're still ftying to packaged. So it's very complicated for it. that's somebody who is pretty obsessed. figure out how to stretch it. the kind of producer I am to work, Vivienne Leebosh : That's the kind of unless I align myself with somebody Cinema Canada: Will it precede people we are. Cinema Canada : Did this producer who is making two or three films per Canadian distribution ? Ralph Thomas : When I'm writing, I go on to make another film ? year. Vivienne Leebosh : I don't think so. get totally obsessed with my characters. Vivienne Leebosh : He Kkely will this The buyers aren't interested in people Canadian will likely precede American Vivienne Leebosh : My biggest prob­ yeia: He's a big-money producer. who make one film every couple of because we're opening the Festival of lem is pressure - the pressure of being a Another film we know of that hasn't years. They're not even interested in Festivals and we'd like to take advantage mother. I don't have time to shop and been released is only 72 minutes long - quality. But you give them a package of of that. buy food as much as I'd like. So I feel 10 minutes short of anything you could five, and you can sell them any kind of terribly guilty, and I get freaked when distribute as a feature. crap. Cinema Canada : Do you think you the fridge is empty- which it is now and Ralph Thomas: The guy I just referred would remain husband and wife if has been for three days. And I feel like a to - the one who eventually directed this Cinema Canada : Would you be will­ you weren't immersed in the same terrible failure when there's no food in film - has been blackballed throughout ing to do television between films ? field ? the house. That's my biggest problem- the entire industry. He's paying the Vivienne Leebosh: No. I don't have Ralph Thomas ; Probably not. My kids don't feel badly. It's my trip. I price. time. I'm still working full-time on Vivienne Leebosh : There's no way of feel guilty. TlCKef To Heaven. And as soon as we knowing. When Ralph and I were work­ Ralph Thomas : To go back to one of Cinema Canada : Could that happen close, there's overseeing the campaign, ing on different projects, it was harder. the questions you first asked, I think again ? doing the trailer... I'm not going to let a We're both so compulsive that I'd be there will be three or four Canadian Ralph Thomas : There are countless distributor just dump the film on the talking about my project and he'd be producers still alive in the American stupid people out there. I have never public without knowing what kind of talking about his, and neither of us system, who will produce mostly trash : encountered so many dumb, stupid promotion ^it will get. We've put too would hear a word. horror movies, 'B' movies, the kind of businessmen - and they keep coming much of our lives into this to let it fall Ralph Thomas : We're so obsessive. stuff the majors will throw into 1,000 into the film industry. They keep blowing into the hands of some moron. As a consequence of that, the frictions theatres for one week, and pull before money. And they blow money for one were worse. That's why 1 say ; probably anybody discovers it. Along the way, simple reason: they don't know any­ Cinema Canada : Have you negotiated not. some others will emerge. thing about making films. They think it's seriously with any American distribu­ Yesterday, for instance, I felt it was But we're in a period of retrenchment. all irtelevant. tors ? Sunday - all day. (It was Wednesday.) I The boom will probably never be repeat­ Vivienne Leebosh : There are distri­ felt it was Sunday because the scene 1 ed. I don't expect in my lifetime to again Cinema Canada : So you would term butors who have seen it twice or three was writing occurred on Sunday. So see a year in which 77 feature films are what has happened in the past two made in Canada. toes and liked it. We will have American every time 1 went downstairs, 1 was kind years a business failure, as opposed to

September 1981 -Cinema Canada/27 Support systems go Ticket to Heaven's e^cecutive producer Ron Cohen describes how his company [Ronald I. Cohen Productions] was instru­ mental in the making of the film. His comments shed light on the delicate balance between, and the complexities of, the creative and commercial elements of filmmaking. a creative failure ? tions that make two or three films per Vivienne Leebosh : That's true. The year : cut out the small guys. So it's a The easiest way to understand my proceed with two pictures : one was brokers are still deciding what is to be fight. role would be to envisage filmmaking a lower budget picture, one was' made, in fact. Ralph Thomas: The government will as a pretty extensive process. With higher. The subjects were quite di­ Ralph Thomas: They'll read the never buy that, though. Ticjiet to Heaven I provided the field verse and, I thought, quite important script and say yes or no. Vivienne Leebosh : They might not, in which Ralph was able to sow his in their own ways. It seemed to make but that's what they're going after. seed as the screenwriter and the a very good kind of package, both Cinema Canada: So what do you They're looking to finance the 'mini- director. We have a background in from a financial and a distribution do ? It seems the film industry has majors.' traditionally been plagued with the feature filmmaking - by "we" I'm re­ point of view. 1 think it really did ferring to our company (Ronald I. prove to be both, although, as we 'two solitudes' syndrome : the finan­ Cinema Canada : Would you consider Cohen Productions] and all the people know, by the end of the year the cial people and the creative people going back to television ? involved in it. We had a record. We don't communicate with each other. Ralph Thomas : I've never ruled out attitude of the investing community Should the creative people be talking to going back to the CBC. In some ways, I had deals with the majors on the last had changed substantially. the investors directly ? don't feel I've really left the CBC. But I've couple of films and had been very Ralph Thomas : Vivienne has spent a had no sense that they want me there. In Involved in the financing of them. We lot of time in the past two years talking fact, I've had a stronge sense they don't were equally involved in their distri­ to business people. We wouldn't have want me there. (Laughs.) bution, not only domestically but At the time, I was - and still am - made Ticket without them ; obviously, One of the ironies of this film is that also in the foreign area. What that interested in being involved yvith we owe them a return on their invest­ when Vivienne first decided to do it she meant was that we had an adminis­ good pictures which were good ment. thought of it as a movie for CBC tele­ tration already set up to deal with all entertainment. To me, whether or Once that investment is returned, we vision. They turned it down. aspects of the creation of a film. It's not the formula looks 'American' to want those people to become part of our Vivienne Leebosh ; They said it had very difficult to create a film in a some people is not a factor. filmmaking for years to come. That's been done, that documentaries had vacuum. It's not impossible, but a Take Middle Age Crazy, for exam­ why we're so concerned about promo­ been done on it. track record is important when it ple. The interesting irony was that it tion. You have to return their invest­ Ralph Thomas : Whereas we've been comes to giving confidence to the was the Krofts's first feature film and ment if you want their confidence. running into distributors who aren't bankers who provide the interim our third at that point; but there's no Besides, you don't want your film to sit even aware that this situation with financing, and to the investors who doubt that because of their experi­ on a shelf. religious cults exists. And here, the CBC are prepared to put up the equity ence in doing hundreds of television If you review the last IS years of was telling us it was passe. dollars to make the film... Then there shows, they had a major role to play Canadian filmmaking, people still talk It's like the word commercial.' It are the distributors, who want to in terms of contacts in L.A., in terms about Goin' Down The Road and Wed­ means nothing; it's a lever, a way of have some insurance that they are of getting Bruce Dern and Ann- ding In White as two of our best films saying no. And CBC's reasons for saying going to have a film of superior Margret for prices which were very ever. They didn't do well at the box no are God-knows-what. It's just that quality, that will get completed... good. Those kinds of things. Their office because they lacked the kind of they've managed to say no to just about All of these critical aspects of the contacts were very useful from that budgets that allowed Hollywood-level every idea we've throwm at them for process - that kind of administrative point of view. Even so, we did play a production values. three years. capacity which has an obvious cre­ kind of leading role there. Suddenly, we had the opportunity to Vivienne Leebosh : The first film I ative side to it - I think, are essential ; At that point, Vivienne and Ralph put those production values on screen, produced at the CBC is called Every and it really works very, very well in were arriving with their feature, and but the money went elsevk-here. What Person is Guilty. Ralph wrote and combination. There's no question it was going to be our fourth - with we need to be competitive is to develop directed it. It was nominated for seven that the idea for the film, in this case, another one already planned, which, and encourage the talent, and find the Genie Av^^ards. Ralph won for best was Ralph's and Vivienne's. It was an of course, went ahead... We had peo­ writers. screenplay and direction. It was nomi­ idea that came out of a series of ple to deal with all the marketing, nated for various ACTRA awards. articles in the Montreal Star, based creative, legal, accounting and book­ Cinema Canada : Do they exist ? Afterward, one of the network's on a very bizarre situation. It was keeping aspects; people tq deal with Vivienne Leebosh : The CFDC says it senior executives told me : 'Vivienne, really quite surprising that no one the general support systems in terms develops writers, but it only does so that is a very fine film, the best that has had made a film in this area before. of publicity, arranging for distribu­ when the writer is affiliated with a come out of this department all year. tion, and eu'ousing some confidence producer. Therefore, the producer And it was done on budget. But,' he says, on the part of investors, who could retains control, and the writer only does 'I have a bone to pick with you. We don't then look and say, "Well, there is what he wants. need aggressive young producers here. Vivienne and Ralph had a long someone with a track record, some­ You walked right over me. You didn't background in television. I didn't one who has done something in the Cinema Canada : So the writer is the confer with me about anything. You actually know them, but Vivienne's past that has resulted in something lackey ? walked over me like I didn't exist. You kid brother and I had gone to school feasible." Vivienne Leebosh : That's right. made all your own decisions.' together many years before. There I was shocked. I couldn't believe it. was that little association which in Cinema Canada : Vivienne, you're on Here was a guy saying : 'We don't need the end, I guess, was meaningless - the CAMPP (Canadian Association of aggressive young producers' That's although that sort of thing always Whatever my tide, I've always done Motion Picture Producers) executive. what working at the CBC is all about. helps to bring people sloser together. pretty much the same thing on the Ralph, you're on the DGC (Directors When they brought the project to me films in which I've been involved- Guild of Canada) board. You now have a Cinema Canada : Are you interested I had already heard about it, and was track record. The so-called commer­ except, obviously, on the first one... in working in the United States ? very encouraged by Michael Prupas With no experience at all, my job was cial filmmakers have failed... Ralph Thomas: We're biding our who was my attorney and good friend. Ralph Thomas: For failing to be limited to legal and financial ques­ time. But we'll definitely have a Holly­ Michael had a long association with tions. My involvement in the creative commercial - that's the important thing. wood agent. Right now, we have two Josh Freed, who had written the aspect increased thereafter to the LA. agents pushing this film. Our deci­ series of articles on which the book sion will depend on how well they do - point where, after Bob Cooper and I Cinema Canada : Okay. So nowyou're and the screenplay were based. Josh split, that area in our organization, in a position to have some input into how successful they are will determine was therefore very influential in the which one we go with. as well as the responsibility for the decisions your respective organiza­ motion picture itself In addition to the financial, business/administrative But I'm not interested in working in tions will make. Is an institute or or­ that there was a lot of encouragement and distribution aspects all fell basi­ the States. I'd rather live and work here. ganization that shares filmmaking from the CFDC - which has played a cally on my shoulders. Although my knowledge possible ? More than anything, I'm interested in very important role in all of the films working. That is my first loyalty. credit was executive producer' on Vivienne Leebosh: It's a fight. A I have been involved in. Ticket to Heaven and 'producer' on power struggle. I'm fighting my end of it, At the time they came to me I Harry Tracy, the functions weren't and the 'Group of Nine' (the Association Cinema Canada : Are you optimistic already had a moral commitment to basically any different. It's being in­ of Canadian Movie Production Com­ that you will still be here next year ? do Harry Tracy ...It was a very heady volved, without any doubt, in all the panies, or ACMPC) are fighting theirs'. Ralph Thomas : A lot will depend on time for the industry at the beginning aspects of filmmaking - more or less They've got a lot of power and a lot of whether or not we can get a film off the of last year, and it seemed to me that in some areas, in tenws of the creative government connections. They say the ground this year. If we can't, we'll have there was good sense in trying to (cont. on p. 38) tax shelter should only be for corpora- some hard decisions to make. •

28/Cinema Canada - September 1981