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Queensland
Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]
Legislative Assembly
TUESDAY, 11 DECEMBER 1979
Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy
Health, &c., Bill [11 DECEMBER 1979] Ministerial Expenses 2415
TUESDAY, 11 DECEMBER 1979
Mr. S~EAKER (Hon. S. J. Muller, Fassi fern) read prayers and took the chair at 11 a.m.
REGISTRATION OF BIRTHS, DEATHS AND MARRIAGES ACT AMENDMENT BILL Assent reported by Mr. Speaker.
MINISTERIAL EXPENSES
RETURN TO ORDER The following paper was laid on the table:- Return to an Order made by the House on 28 August last, an the motion of Mr. Gunn, of expenses of Ministers for the period 1 July 1978 to 30 June 1979, inolusive, showing each separately and in detail. 2416 Ministerial Statement [11 DECEMBER 1979] Ministerial Statement
PAJPBRS As part of the ini>tial proposal, the The following papers were laid on the apphlcant had offered to develop a commun table, and ordered to be printed:- ity centre on five acres of ~and forming Reports- part of the site referred to in the rezoning application and to lease the land baok to the Commissioner for Consumer Affairs, for council over a 99 year period at a token 1978-79. rental. Commissioner for Railways, for 1978-79. Ail its meeting on the 30 November, the Minister for Education, for 1978. Gold Coast City Council resolved that it The following papers were laid on the would proceed with the cultural centre table:- develo!Pffient at the Evandale site, and that Orders in Council under the community centre proposal advanced by the applicant was unaaceptable jn wncept Electricity Act 1976-1979. and would not be required. The Supreme Court Act of 1921. It should be under&tood by all that the The Harbours Act 1955-1979. applicant had, in making appliaation for the Regulations under- rezoning of the land in question, applied Tones Strait Islanders Act 1971-1979. for the wlhole of tlhe area to be included Aborigines Act 1971-1979. in a zone which would permit retail shop ping and ccmunercial offices to estabLish as Statutes under the Griffith University Act of right. 1971-1977. The decision of council to not require the community centre did, in fact, confer a substantial financial benefit to the applicant MINISTERIAL STATEMENT on the basis that he could have a sub stantial increased floor area in his proposed GOLD CoAST CITY COUNCIL's PROPOSED development if the applica,tion was ultimately RszoNING OF SoUTHPORT LAND approved by the Governor in Council. Hon. R. J. HINZE (South Coast-Minister It is said bv the council that having for Local Government and Main Roads) regard to the economic benefit which \VOuld (11.8 a.m.): I rise to clarify, for the benefit accrue to the applicant as a result of council's of this How,e and the people of Queensl-and, decision in relation to the community centre, an rssue that has caused a degree of concern and the saving in expenditure to the applicant through sections of the communitv and the through not constructing a community media in recent days. I refer to 'a decision centre on lands the subject of the rezoning made by the Gold Co,ast City Council last application, the offer of $1,000,000 to Friday, which granted initia'l approval for council for cultural centre activities was the rezoning of certain land in the vicinity made. of The Southport School, subject to a number of conditions. The council argues that in actual fact the value of this contribution would be The effect of the decision was to indicate substantiallv less than the proposal as to the applicant that council is prepared to or,iginally offered by the applicant. From support a rezoning of the land, which has the information supplied to me, it would an approximate area of 18 acres, for develop appear that both the applicant and the ment for shopping centre purposes. One of council have acted in good faith and in a the conditions of approval was that the lawful manner in relation to this matter. applicant lodge with the council a contribu It must be recognised by all that this tion of the order of $1,000,000 to be expended Government supports private enterprise and towards the development of council's cultural the free, 'lawful, negotiation system wh:ich centre on land that forms part of the Evan should apply between developers and local dale administration centre. I am advised that authorities concerned. this condition relating to the contribution arose from an offer made by the applicant Mr. K. J. Hooper interjected. company to the council, and that at no time was any coercion used by council to obtain Mr. HINZE: Under normal circumstances, such a contribution. I would not be making a statement such as this today but, as the House rises towards As a result of an agreement being reached the end of this week, it is not my intention, between the Town Planning Committee of or that of the Government, to allow ~the the council and the applicant on this matter, matter to be the subject of misguided specula the $1,000,000 offer was embodied in con tion, particularly by the member for ditions proposed to be imposed with the Archerfield, in relation to coercion or black approva'l, which was granted at the meeting mail bv councils or devdopers; nor is it referred to. It should be pointed out that the int;ntion of this Government to have this at the time the application was made, the matter drawn out over the recess period future of the cultural centre on land at the by members of the Opposition for their own Evandale site was subject to doubt, and has political ends or by the media for their been subject to doubt for some considerable purposes in what is traditionally a quiet time. news period. Petitions [11 DECEMBER 1979] Questions Upon Notice 2417
As Minister for Local Government, I that the obnoxious smell which emanates am more ·llhan a litt·le distunbed at continuing from the tannery operated by Wm. Gibson ;,uggestions that local authorities are obtain & Sons Pty Ltd in Stafford Road, Stafford, is ing contributions towards wonks and/or pro unacceptable in a residential area and praying jects wihich have no relation whatsoever to that the Parliament of Queensland will insti the actual development appLications proposed. tute procedures or processes which will elimin. I am having this matter examined and, ate the release of these odours or require this if considered neces;,ar;y, wi11 make recom company to relocate its business away from mendat-ions for amendments to the relevant residential areas. parts of the Act to prevent any such offers Petition read and received. bcing made or accepted in the future. 11he Government wi11 not tolerate this situation, nor will it stand by and allow SEX EDUCATION, CONTRACEPTION ADVICE AND lorcal feelings and coocerns to be divided REPEAL OF ABORTION LAWS w·hile the matter cannot be debated in this Mr. GYGAR (Stafford) presented a petit House. ion from 1,745 citizens of Queensland, praying I haYe had lengthy discussions with the that the Parliament of Queensland will intro mayor of the Gold Coast, Alderman Keiuh duce personal and social development courses, Hunt, on this matter this morning and he including sex education in schools, remove advised that a notice of motion to rescind restrictions on advertising contraceptives and the decision of council on this application make contraceptive advice and services avail has been served upon the council, and that able to all communities throughout Queens aHer the reqn.isite time as required by the land and repeal all abortion laws and treat Local Government Act has expired, a abortion as a normal medical procedure. specially convened meeting of the council Petition read and received. will be held to further consider this maDter. It should be remembered that the Gold Coast ratepayers now have an opportunity DOCUMENTATION OF ABORTION PROCEDURES to demonstrate their feelings by representa tion to their local aldermen and the lodging Mr. V AUGHAN (Nudgee) presented a of objections to the proposaL As part of petition from 218 electors of Queensland, the normal procedure fol:lowing the expira praying that the Parliament of Queensland tion of the time available for objections, will provide that full documentation for the council will then consider further the every abortion performed concerning the future of this application prior to recom patient's state at the time and all the cir mendation, one way or the other, to me. cumstances of the case (as in clause 282 It should not be construed that the Gov of the Queensland Criminal Code) be ernment in any way encourages the actions included in any proposed legislation, that an of the Gold Coast City Council in relation Abortion Review Committee be established to this proposaL to examine, analyse and assess the medical documentation of every case of abortion per formed in this State, that the Parliament of PETITIONS Queensland will demand adequate documen tation to establish the reasonable nature PROTECI'lON OF UNBORN QUEENSLANDERS of every abortion operation and that a KILLED BY ABORTION Committee be set up to monitor such docu Hon. F. A. CAMPBELL (Aspley) mentation. presented a petition from 387 electors of Petition read and received. Queensland, praying that the Parliament of [A similar petition was presented by Dr. Queensland will take all necessary measures Lockwood (115 signatories), and this petition to protect the lives of unborn Queenslanders was read and received.] being killed by abortion. Petition read and received. [Similar petitions were presented by Mr. Doumany (l 05 signatories), Mr. M. D. QUESTIONS UPON NOTICE Hooper (173 signatories), Mr. Jones (434 signatories), Mr. Tenni (226 signatories), Mr. 1. TRAINING OF ScHOOLCHILDREN IN ROAD Innes (692 signatories, 33 signatories and 192 SAFETY signatories), Dr. Scott-Young (1,126 sig Mr. Akers, pursuant to notice, asked the natories), Mr. Bertoni (109 signatories), Mr. Minister for Education- Gygar (269 signatories), and Mr. Fouras (143 (!) Has his attention been drawn to signatories), and these petitions were read the practice in Korea of teaching school and received.] children to raise their hands in the "Stop" signal position towards traffic when cross ODOURS EMANATING FROM TANNERY OF WM. ing streets? G!BSON & SONS PTY. LTD. AT STAFFORD (2) As a large number of children Mr. GYGAR (Stafford) presented a petit are injured or killed in Queensland ion from 343 citizens of Queensland, showing each year by running onto streets in front 2418 Questions Upon Notice [11 DECEMBER 1979J Questions Upon Notice
of moving vehicles, will he study the is now a better understanding of the Korean practice and have schoolchildren requirements for the flashing lights and in Queensland trained in the same way signs, and these are not unreasonable when both to warn drivers and to make the the lives of children are involved. It is a children more aware of the dangers of mistake to say there is no requirement crossing streets? for traffic to stop when the lights are flashing. Under certain conditions where Answers:- it is necessary for a driver .to take reason ( I) No, the Korean practice has not been able care and precaution to avoid endan drawn to my attention. gering the life, safety or health of any person including a child, as provided for (2) I will ask my colleague the Hon under regulation 53 of the traffic regula ourable Ken Tomkins, the Minister for tions, it could be necessary for an Transport, for the advice of his Road approaching vehicle to slow down and, Safety Council on the matter. indeed, come to a stop. Generally the olear identification of 2. SAFElY OF CHILDREN USING ScHooL school buses with the use of flashing lights BusES and signs will warn the driver of an approaching vehiole that there is a poten Mr. Akers, pursuant to notice, asked the tially dangerous situation and he is obliged Minister for Transport- to .take reasonable safety precautions, as As the regulations covering the introduc I have indicated. The observance of any tion of flashing lights and signs on school prescdbed speed limit does not authorise, buses will cost school-bus operators at justify or excuse a person driving a motor least $200 per bus and will only marginally vehicle at a speed or in a manner which increase safety for schoolchildren because might be considered dangercms to children there is no requirement for traffic to stop leaving or joining a school hus so clearly when the lights are flashing and, in any identified. Nevertheless, if experience case they will not apply to buses operated shows that drivers are ignoring the existing by Brisbane City Council or other regular requirements of the law, appropriate action runs carrying general passengers, will he will be taken to reconsider those require take action to have the regulations updated ments. to provide real safety for children and require all traffic to stop in the vicinity of 3. ELECTRIFICATION OF PETRIE .RAILWAY school buses with flashing lights? LINE Answer:- Mr. Akers, pursuant to notice, asked the Minister for Transpor·t- I appreciate the interest of the honour able member in this road safety measure, Following the reported Federal Govern particularly as it concerns the protection ment decision to support the planned of young children in this Interna;tional Year $300,000,000 electrification of the Sydney of the Child. to Melbourne railway link, his approaches regarding similar funding for Queensland As I have indicated to him by corres railways, and the Prime Minister's state pondence, the type of light and sign which ment that other States' projects would be may be installed on a school bus should considered, will he make a special effort not cost much more than $100 per bus to obtain support for the electrification unless the operator wishes to spend a of the Petrie line serving the rapidly greater amount of money for his own growing Bracken Ridge, Bald Hills and purpose. Over the life of a bus or in Pine Rivers areas? respect of the number of children carried each year, the initial cost is very small. Answer:- I am advised that the flashing-light kit Electrification of the Petrie line is alreadv which would meet the requirements should included in the current programme for cost only approximately $50, and the cost completion of Brisbane suburban electrifi of the labour involved in installing it cation by 1984, with construction of this should not exceed that amount. section planned for commencement next If he is aware of an operator who is financial year. The honourable member having a problem in this regard, the may be assured that special effoDts are Department of Transport mechanical tech being made to obtain maximum Common nician will! provide information as to the wealth financial support for all rail availability of the kit and the method by electrification projects in Queensland. which the fla.shing lights may be installed. So far as the school-bus sign is concern 'd, its cost depends upon what the operator 4. TOWNSYILLE 01Y COUNCIL Bus requires provided that it meet's the specifi SERVICE cMions laid down in the regulatkms. Dr. Scott-Young, pursuant to notice, asked I have had discussions with representa the Minister for Transport- tives of the Queensland School Transport (!) Is it possible for the Townsville Association, and I am satisfied that there City Council to set up, under it3 own Questions Upon Notice [11 DECEMBER 1979] Questions Upon Notice 2419
legal and administrative power, a bus (3) On how many occasions has this service to serve the citizens of Townsville? committee met, and what was the total (2) If so, (a) who would finance such duration of all such meetings? an arrangement, (b) what subsidy would (4) What action has been taken on be given by the State Government, (c) that committee's report submitted to how would the subsidy be calculated and Cabinet on 17 March 1978? on what criteria, and (d) what would the (5) What further reports have been sub calculated cost be to the already overtaxed mitted or recommendations made to him ratepayers of Townsviiie? since the March 1978 report? (6) In view of the unprecedented delay Answers:- in acting upon the original recommenda tions and because of the importance of (1) Under sections 54 and 55 of the some of the recommendations to law State Transport Act provision is made for enforcement in Queensland, will he make any local authority to apply to the Com a detailed statement to the House in rela missioner for Transport for a passenger tion to the future implementation of the service licence to operate an urban pas Lucas report, especially that section senger service or to acquire the exist relating to the use of tape recorders ing service or existing services. For this during interrogations and interviews and purpose, I understand that under the Local the establishing of special rules when Government Act the Townsville City Coun dealing with people with disabilities? cil would be in the same position as the Rockhampton City Council, which oper ates its own urban bus services. Answer:- (2) Financing of such an arrangement (! to 6) In May 1977 a committee would be the responsibility of the local comprising- authority concerned. The question of sub (i) the Under Secretary for Justice or sidy would, as in the case of the Bris his nominee; bane City Council and the Rockhampton (ii) the Solicitor-General or his City Council, be one for consideration by nominee; and my colleague the Honourable Deputy (iii) the Commissioner of Police or Premier and Treasurer. his nominee, It is not possible to calculate the cost was set up to examine the report of the of providing such an urban service or Committee of Inquiry into the Enforce the affect on the Townsville ratepayer, ment of Criminal Law in Queensland. as it would be dependent on so many variables such as the type and cost of the A number of meetings were held but bus at the time, the nature and extent the total duration of those meetings is not of services provided and the provision known. From the comprehensive report of ancillary facilities. These could only furnished to me, I am satisfied that the be determined at a point of time when committee carefully considered the recom decisions have been made in relation to mendations of the committee of inquiry. the matters I have mentioned. The report of this committee was submitted to Cabinet on 17 March 1978. No other reports have been or will be made by this committee. 5. IMPLEMENTATION OF RECOMMENDATIONS OF LUCAS CRIMINAL LAW INQUIRY As I have previously advised the House, Cabinet decided that at present there be Mr. Wright, pursuant to notice, asked the no mandatory requirement for the video Minister for Justice and Attorney-General- or oral recording of confessional material and that this question be kept under review. With reference to the report of the The matter is being kept under review Committee of Inquiry into the Enforce in the light of developments in both the ment of Criminal Law in Queensland, more electronic and criminal investigation fields. commonly known as the Lucas criminal law inquiry, which was completed over As the honourable member would be two and a half years ago, and in view of aware the committee of inquiry considered the pledge reported to have been given that the adoption of many of the recom in Cunnamulla on 1 November 1977 bv mendations should be contingent upon the the then Deputy Premier, Sir William adoption also of the recommendation that Knox, that he would work for the imple interrogations should be mechanically mentation of the key recommendations- recorded whenever this is possible. Cl) Which of the 57 recommendations Recommendation numbers 16, 52 and have been (a) officially adopted as Gov 54 have been implemented by my depart ernment or departmental practice, and (b) ment. introduced as Police Department practice? The matters referred to in recommend (2) Who are the members of the special ation numbers 22 and 53 were referred three-man committee set up to report to to the Law Reform Commission for con Cabinet on the recommendations? sideration. 2420 Qnestions Upon Notice [11 DECEMBER 1979] Questions Upon Notice
The matters referred to in recommend Answer:- ation numbers 25, 32, 37 and 51 will be If the honourable member is referring further considered when the laws relating to the site at Trinity Beach, that site is to those matters are next under review. being acquired against possible future The majority of the recommendations need. My department is undertaking demo are such that their implementation should graphic surveys and monitoring develop be initiated by the Honourable the Minister ments in the Cairns area. When such for Police. Although I understand that a surveys indicate that there are sufficient number of these recommendations have students in a particular area to warrant been implemented, the honourable member a full high school, consideration will be should refer questions on recommendations given to its establishment, consistent with which affect other departments to the the availability of funds. I should point appropriate Minister. out that students would be disadvantaged if a high school was established before sufficient students could be enrolled to 6. CANCER RESEARCH BY DR. G. N. allow a full range of subjects to be ScHRAUZER offered. Mr. Wright, pursuant to notice, asked the Minister for Health- 8. SPECIAL LEASE, EIDSVOLD AREA (1) With reference to claims by Dr. Mr. Burns, pursuant to notice, asked the G. N. Schrauzer, a professor of chemistry Minister for Lands, Forestry and Water at the University of California, that cancer Resources- mortalities would decline by as much as Cl) With reference to applications for 80 per cent to 90 per cent in western special lease of portions 12 and 96, Parish industrialised countries if the daily dietary of Hollywell, covering 337 ha of land intake of the mineral selenium was sig south-east of Eidsvold, why are applications nificantly increased, and in view of (a) Dr. restricted to persons who hold country Schrauzer's academic standing, (b) the land in the environs of Eidsvold? extent of his research and publications on this subject, and (c) the fact that he has (2) Does this clause debar many inter already received awards and recognition ested young Queenslanders who do not from the American Cancer Society, will own land but would be interested in he have a thorough investigation under acquiring this block as a small, but ideal, taken by competent medical authorities of grazing block? the claims by Dr. Schrauzer and his col (3) Will he recall applications and allow leagues with a view to having a special all young Queenslanders to apply? report tabled in this Parliament as early as possible in 1980? Anower:- (2) Should no such competent medical (1 to 3) Applications for a special lease personnel be available to the Government, of portions 12 and 96, parish of Hollywell, will he pursue this matter with his minis are restricted to persons who hold country terial counterpart at the Federal level? land in the environs of Eidsvold because (3) Will he arrange to have publications the area in itself has a very limited carry or papers which focus on possible etio ing capacity and could certainly not be logical associations with selenium made regarded as a living area under any type available through the Parliamentary of rural pursuit. It has no permanent Library? water and no dipping facilities, and in all the circumstances it is considered it could only be effectively used by an existing Answer:- landholder. I could not support the hon ourable member's contention that in itself (1 to 3) Officers of my department have already been in contact with individuals it would be a small but ideal grazing block. For the reasons stated it is not proposed and authorities in the United States and to recall applications. South America concerning the claims made by Dr. G. N. Schrauzer, and are awaiting reports. When this informatior. is available I will be cin correspondence with the 9. MOOLOOLAH RNER FLOOD HYDRAULIC honourable member. 'MODEL TECHNICAL COMMITTEE Mr. Burns, pursuant to notice, asked the Premier- 7. NEW HIGH ScHOOL, CAIRNS AREA (1) Is he aware of the concern Mr. Tenni, pursuant to notice, asked the expressed by the Maroochy Shire Council Minister for Education- and Maroochy residents at proposals bv the Mooloolah River Flood Hydraulic When will the new high school on the Modei Technical Committee for a second northern beaches north of Cairns, on new mouth for the Moolooiah River by digging land now being surveyed, be ready for a canal through Parkyn Parade camping occupation? reserve? Questions Upon Notice [11 DECEMBER 1979] Questions Upon Notice 2421
(2) Have councillors of the Maroochy Answer:- Shire expressed concern about further {!) I am advised that salt ahlorinators canal development in the Landsborough present no danger, provided the safety Shire, which would empty into the precautions, advice and !instructions for Mooloolah River? instaHation and use are strictly followed. (3) When was the Mooloolah River (2) Officers of my department will F1ood Hydraulic Model Technical Com investigate any specific instance, provided mittee formed, what was the reason for its ful:l de1ails are surbmitted. formation, who are the members, and how were they appointed? (4) If the committee was formed to 11. 2,4,5-T investigate flood fears expressed by local residents about certain dredging and canal Dr. Lockwood, pursuant to notice, asked work, who was the person or company the Minister for Health- responsible for that work and who, or (1) Has his department had the oppor what department, gave them authority to tunity to study a report on chicken operate? embryo research into the effects of the hormone weed-killer known as 2,4,5-T, Answers:- conducted by Dr. Lesley Rogers of Monash University, in which she reports that a (!) I am advised that the Mooloolah very low dose of 2,4,5-T can cause defects River Model Technical Committee has no in the developing brain of chickens that proposals for a canal ·through Parkyn result in chickens being hyperactive, fearful Parade caravan park reserve and therefore and slow learning? any concern of Maroochy residents is (2) Will he have the appropriate medical unfounded. experts evaluate this report and others on (2) rl am unaware of any expression of 2,4,5-T with a view to considering recom concern by Marooohy Sh]re counoil1ors mending further restrictions on the use of over further canal development in Lands 2,4,5-T upwind of all residences, be they borough Shire. urban, suburban or rural? (3) 11he requirement for a 'hydrauHc Answers:- model to study the effeots of flood flows on development of !Jhe Mooloolah River '(1) My department is aware of the flood plain resulted from a legal sealement report. between Land:>borough Shire Council and (2) This report Wlill be studied. The Kawana Estates Pty. Ltd. The Mooloolah honourable member wHl be aware that a River Model Technical Commhtee was fu11 investigation into 2,4,5.,T was under established in 1975 at the request of the taken this ye·ar by the National Health Land Adm~nistration CommisSiion to super and Medical Researoh Council, which vise the hydraul:ic model investigations. The reported at !Jhat time that no additional committee is comprised of representat·ives restrictJions were recommended. of and nominated by the Co-ordinator Genera:l's Depai'tment, the Land Adrninis •tration Commission, Department of 12. OPERATION OF FOREIGN FISHING Harbours and Marine, Department of VEssELS IN AuSTRALIAN WATERS 1Looal Government, Maroochy Shire Coun cil, Landslborough Shire Council, Kawana Mr. Jones, pursuant to notice, asked the Estates Pty. Ltd., Messrs. Cardno and Minister for MariHme Services and Davies (Amtralia) Pty. Ltd. and the Tourism- University of New South Wa.Jes Water With reference to the 200 nautical mile Research Laboratory. Australian Fishing Zone and the Austra (4) See answer to (3). lian, Japanese, Taiwanese and Korean fishing agreements- Cl) Do these approvals for foreign fish ing vessels to fish in Australian waters 10. DANGEROUS SWIMMING-POOL SALT contain any conditions for the recording CHLORINATORS of catch figures, or guarantees in this Mr. Goleby, pursuant to notice, asked the regard? Minister for Hea~trh- (2) If so, what are the details of such (1) Is he aware that some salt chlorin limitations and the method and procedures ators used in family swimming-pools are of report? a danger to pool users? (2) Will he have investigated certain Answer:- makes of chlorinators, in particular Auto (1 & 2) The mas•ters of foreign fishing chlor and Watermaid, that are reported to vessels licensed to fish in the Australian have exploded under some circumstances, Fishing Zone are obliged to fu11nish to the which could cause considerable harm and Au~tJralian authonities radio reports of injury to pool users? their catch every six days, and to maintain 2422 Questions Upon Notice [11 DECEMBER 1979] Questions Upon Notice
catoh~and-effOII"t log hooks which are transfer railway facilities to the East per,iodicaJily checked and collected by Aus. Cairns Industrial Estate, Smiths Creek- :t11alian observers or inspectors. If inform (1) Has any consideration been given to ation on the administrative arrangements any change in the arrangement for reloca is wanted in greater detail than I have tion or discontinuance of the bulk sugar just indicated, it would be more appropri transfer station located in Spence Street, ate for 1lhe honourable membetr to seek between Aumuller and Lyons Streets, such information from -the CommonweaLth Cairns, after the expiration of the 20-year Minister responsible for those arr.aiJJge agreement, which is due for renewal in ments, namezy, the Minister for Primary 1982? Industry. (2) If not, what is the anticipated period of any new agreement to be negotiated? 13. BARRAMUNDI RESEARCH (3) Will rail transport of bulk sugar, Mr. Jones, pursuant to notice, asked the under existing circumstances, be main Minister for Maritime Services and Tourism- tained for transfer to the bulk sugar Has the report on the barramundi terminal for the port of Cairns after studies been considered by the Fishing 1982? Industry Research Committee, and is the Commonwealth Government contributing Answers: to this project? If so, what is the basis (1) Yes. of allocation and the amounts of contribu tions, as recommended and expended (2) See answer to question (1). respectively, in 1978-79? How much (3) A V'ariation from the existing method was recommended for this financial year, of transporting sugar to the Cairns bulk and how much has been expended to terminal is not foreseen at present. date? Answers:- 15. INSISTENCE BY FINANCIAL Several organisations are involved in INSTITUTIONS ON PROBATE barmmundi research in Northern Aus tralia and have some connection with the Mr. Frawley, pursuant to notice, asked the Fishing Industry Research Committee. I Minister for Justice and Attorney-General- presume, however, that the honourable (!) Is he aware that some banks, insur member is referring specifically to the pro ance companies and building societies ject being conducted by the Queensland refuse to hand over to a widow, who is Fisheries Service. On this basis, the both executor and beneficiary of a will, answers to his questions are as follows- any deeds to property, shares in companies (1) The Queensland Fisheries Service or money unless probate has been granted? has received gmnts from the Common (2) If a widow produces a copy of the wealth Fishing Industry Research Trust will and death certificate, should she be Account for the past three years. At compelled to go to the expense of probate, 1he close of each year, the Fishing especially if the estate is small? Industry Research Committee receives (3) Is there any law which compels these reports on the status of the study before making a continuing grant. institutions to insist on probate, or are they merely acting in an arbitrary fashion (2) The study is being funded jointly and causing people undue expense? by the Sta,te and Commonwealth Governments. (3) The State's contribution comprises Answer:- rthe sallaries of two biologists and the use (1 to 3) As the honourable member of service laboratory and vessel facilities knows, it is a basic rule of law that, in a:t a cost estimated in excess of $30,000 general, a will can be established legally in 1978-79. Grants received from the as the valid last will of a deceased person Commonwealth fm 1977-78 and 1978-79 only by a grant of probate or letters were $16,800 and $28,870, respectively. of administration with the will. A Both grants have been fully expended. person who deals with property by paying (4) The approved Commonwealth or delivering it to an executor in the absence gront for 1979-80 is $29,950, of which of such a grant does so at his own risk. $8,935 has been expended as at 30 There are some exceptions made by November 1979. special legislation in limited cases involving insurance companies or the Commonwealth 14. RAIL TRANSPORT OF BULK SuGAR, Savings Bank. I am advised that, despite the CAIRNS general rule to which I have referred, it is quite common for banks, insurance com Mr. Jones, pursuant to notice, asked the panies, building societies and others to pay Minister fm Transpmt- or transfer money or property of sub With reference to answers to my ques stantial value without requiring probate or tions of 18 October 1975 and 21 Septem letters of administration, protecting them ber 1978 concerning the commitment to selves as far as practicable by declarations, Questions Upon Notice [11 DECEMBER 1979] Questions Upon Notice 2423
consents, indemnities, etc. No doubt a sub 18. PoLICE RAID ON REDCLIFFE LEAGUES stantial consideration in such cases would CLun be that the risk involved is outweighed by Mr. T. A. White, pursuant to notice, asked considerations of convenience. the Minister for Mines, Energy and Police- It is a matter for the individual institu (1) Was a cabaret dance recently held tion or person to decide whether probate at the Redcliffe Leagues Club raided by or letters of administration should be .five car-loads of police, two paddy wagons required in any particular case. The ready and two Alsatian tracker dogs and, if so, availability of legal aid or of the services what was the reason for such high-handed of the Public Trust Office to a large extent action? mitigate any hardship or inconvenience if such a decision is made. (2) What was the outcome of this raid? Answer:- 16. CABOOLTURE SHIRE CouNCIL RATING (1 & 2) Following complaints received Mr. Frawley, pursuant to notice, asked the concerning the conduct of patrons attend Minister for Local Government and Main ing the cabaret-disco entertainment held at Roads- Reddiffe Leagues Club, Licensing Branch (!) What were the general rates police visited the premises on 11 Novem budgeted for by the Caboolture Shire ber 1979. It was observed that the patrons Council for each of the years from were somewhat boisterous and unruly and 1975-76 to 1979-80? police spoke to the management. ~wo (2) What were the separate rates for persons were arrested, one for using all divisions of the council for the same obs.cene language and the other for a years? dl'ink-driving offence. As well, one under age youth was cautioned for consuming Answer:- liquor. (1 & 2) It is not clear whether the hon Because of this conduct, on 25 November ourable member requires information on 1979 members of the Licensing Branch the rate in the dollar for each rate, or the ·and the ~ask Force, utilising three cars total amount of rate collections included and one patrOil van, visited the premises. in the budget. However, the information A dog unit operating in the area also has been collated on both bases, and I attended to augment staff, but not for the table a schedule &howing such information. purpose of using the police dogs. Whereupon the lwnourable gentleman laid Police found that the cabaret-dis.oo was the schedule on the table. under new management and was being conducted in an orderly manner. No police aotion was taken. 17. LAND VALUATIONS, CABOOLTURE SIDRE Mr. Frawley, pursuant to notice, asked the The honourable member will appreciate Minister for Survey and Valuation- that when police receive complaints they are duty-bound to investig13te same and (!) Is he aware of the criticism by Cr. take appropriate action when necessary. Barr, the chairman of the Caboolture Shire Council, levelled at the recent valua tions of the Caboolture Shire? 19. SAND-MINING, MoRETON IsLAND (2) Is this criticism justified? Mr. T. A. White, pursuant to notice, asked (3) Would it be in the best interests the Minister for Mines, Energy and Police- of the public if local authorities carried With reference to recent statements in out their own valuations in their respective "The Courier~Mail" concerning sand• areas? mining at Moreton Island- Answers: (!) What mining leases are currently (!) Yes. registered? (2) No. Councillor Barr criticised rural (2) What leases, if any, have lapsed? residential valuations. The average increase (3) What leases does the Government was between 650 and 700 per cent, and have under consideration for future sand this is of the same order as the overall mining? shire increase of 537.5 per cent. The rural (4) Are these leases in areas recom residential values reflect a slightly stronger mended for sand-mining the same as those market. recommended in the Cook inquiry? (3) In my view, it would be costly and inefficient for shires to do so. At present, Answers:- councils pay only about 25 per cent of the cost of running the Valuer-General's (!) Mining Leases Nos. 930, 1049, 1081, Department. The public is served by a 1171, 1118, 1119, 1120, 1121, 1122, 1123, professional team of valuers completely 1124, 1125, 1126, 1130, 1131 and 1132, independent of shire councils. This was not Brisbane, are current on Moreton Island. the case prior to 1946. (2) None. 2424 Questions Upon Notice [11 DECEMBER 1979] Questions Without Notice
(3) An interdepartmental committee is Answers:- preparing advice on the future develop me~! of Moreton Island as far as mining, (1) The Me'llbourne greyhound treble natiOnal parks, tourist and residential diVJidend for the meeting held on the areas are concerned. nigh't of Monday, 3 July 1978 was amended when a further winning tkiket was dis (4) The committee has not yet repmted. {)O,Vered as pa:rt of the normal redheck pwcedure. The additional winning unit resulted in the unconfirmed dividend of 20. ADULTERATION OF BEER AND SPIRITS $2,294.90 being reduced to $2,039.90. Mr. K. J. Hooper, pursuant to notice (2) The customer who held the winning asked the Minister for Justice and Attorney: ticket was not paid the larger amount, General~ because the dividend had not been officially (1) What are the names of the pub confi,rmed and pay-out of dividends had licans, and their hotels, who have been not commenced. All customers with winn charged with the adulteration of beer or ing tickets received the lesser, and correct, spirits during 1978-79? amount. (2) How many checks were carried out (3) The Sandown treble dividend on by the Licensing Commission during Wednesday, 28 November 1979 was altered 1978-79 to detect adulteration of beer or from $2,585.15 to $2,477.45 when it was spirits? discovered that a valid winning tiak:et had (3) Why is this important information tbeen omitted from the pooJ. The additional not published in the annual report of the winning ticket had been mis-sorted during Licensing Commission? processing. {4) The extra tio:ket was discovered at Answers:- the Booval ~Ipswidh) T.A.B. and the (!) This question should be directed to name and address of the customer who my OOilleague the Honourable the Minister purchased the ticket will be given, on a for Health. confidential basds, to the honourable mem ber on request-if he's nice! {2) The detection of adulteration of beer or spirits is a duty imposed on the State In this case, the customer was paid the Health Depa,rtment inspectors and not on h1gher dividend because other customers the Licensing Commission. had already !been paid at the higher amount. This is in contrast to the position (3) See answers to (1) and (2). in part (2) of the answer, where all Mr. K. J. Hooper: I redirect tlhis ques,tion customers were paid t1he correct dividend to the Minister for Heahh. and none were paid a higher amount. (5) Dividends are rarely altered, but when miUions of tickets are manua1ly pro 21. ALTERATION OF DECLARED T.A.B. ·cessed every week an ocoasional sorting DIVIDENDS error will occur. Even more occasionally, Mr. K. J. Hooper, pursu,ant to notice the ticket in question will be a winning asked tlhe Deputy Premier and Treasurer_: one. (1) What were the circumstances con cerning the alteration to the reported pay ment figure on the greyhound meeting on QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE 3 July 1978 for the Melbourne treble which changed from $2,294.90 to $2,039.90? REZONING OF GOLD COAST LAND; HUDSON CoNWAY HoLDINGs PTY. LTD. (2) If another ticket was discovered after the larger amount was declared, Mr. CASEY: I refer the Premier to his where did the ticket come from and why answer to a question I asked on 18 September was a punter who held a winning ticket last concerning what is now known as the not paid the larger amount? thanksgiving dinner which he and Sir Robert (3) What were the circumstances con Sparkes attended at the home of Mr. Ian cerning the alteration to the reported pay Rice in Melbourne in July, and the Premier's ment figure on the Sandown meeting on 28 comment that he met some of Australia's November 1979 for the treble, which was leading businessmen, and as a result we changed from $2,585 to $2,477? would see a flow of several billion dollars into the State. I ask the Premier: As ( 4) If another ticket was discovered Ronald J. Walker, the chairman of Hudson after the larger amount was declared, Conway Holdings Pty. Ltd., the company where did this ticket come from and why involved in the latest Gold Coast rezoning was the punter on this occasion, in con scandal was present at the dinner, did he trast to part (2) of the question, credited discuss the company's proposed Gold Coast with the larger amount? shopping centre investment with Mr. Walker (5) What action was taken after 3 July or any other representative of his company 1978 to avoid this alteration of declared who was present at the dinner? When did dividends, and why did it recur on the Premier first become aware that, rather 28 November 1979? than investing in Queensland, that company Questions Without Notice [11 DECEMBER 1979] Questions Without Notice 2425
was making such a huge and quick profit who take other employment will be dis out of the State it was prepared to sling a advantaged when consideration is given to spare $1,000,000 to the Gold Coast City the filling of vacancies for teachers during Council? the year, as compared with unemployed teaching graduates? Are steps being taken Mr. BJELKE-PETERSEN: The answer to adjust the current intake of student to the first part of the question is "No". teachers to present levels of demand? The matter was not discussed or even men tioned. The first time I knew that the com Mr. BIRD: I think we are all aware pany was involved in this project was when 'that, at the present time, my department ,is I read it in the Press and saw who was behind able to offer positions to only about 500 the company. I knew nothing about it prior graduating teachers. If we look at the total to that time. number of resignations in the last statistical year, we find that there were close to 2,000. I expect that resignations in this statistical COMPARISON BETWEEN HUDSON CONWAY year will prove to be almost the same so HOLDINGS PTY. LTD. AND IWASAKI that, in fact, we should have about 1,500 SANGYO OFFERS vacancies in the year. Although we are only able to offer employment to about 500 Mr. CASEY: In view of the Premier's teachers at this time, I believe that by the answer to my question and his published time resignations come in after the school comments, namely, that he found the offer holidays we will be able to offer more by Hudson Conway Holdings Pty. Ltd. of employment opportunities. It must be a $1,~00,000 gift to the Gold Coast City remembered that, unfortunately, the majority C:ouncil cultural centre "disturbing", what of teachers who intend to resign at the end difference does the Premier see between of 'the school holidays do not so indicate this proposal and that of the Iwasaki Sangyo until the end of the holidays. If they were Corporation, which included an offer to the able to give us notice prior to the holidays Livingstone Shire Council of $400,000 as a -they have the assurance that they would general-purpose contribution to the shire not lose their holiday pay-that would give and an additional $50,000 as a cultural grant us an opportunity to indicate to far more to the area? young people graduating from college that . Mr. ~JELKE-PETERSEN: Over a long they will be able to obtain employment . time, d1fferent local authorities includincr the Of all those who are graduating, most, Brisbane City Council (which started0 this if not all, will be able to obtain employ practice), have been involved in this practice. ment within the next eight months in the It has grown from its original concept to State Department of Education. This indi what it is today. If a person wants land cates that the number of students we have rezoned, he has to contribute this or that taken into the college is close to this year's or offer. to do something. That is well known: requirements. I do not think that any depart What disturbs me is the fact that the practice ment could be asked three years ahead to go has grown to such an extent. In relation to closer than we have on this occasion. !he Iwasaki proposal, it was part of the mfrastructure. A piece of land was owned Mr. INNES: With your leave, Mr. by the shire council, for which it asked a Speaker, could I remind the Minister of part considerable sum of money. of the question I asked, which was: Is there any truth in the suggestion that graduates Mr. Casey: It was $400,000, and you who take other employment will be disadvan gave them-- taged as compared with unemployed teaching graduates? Mr. BJELKE-PETERSEN: The honour able member knows all the details. Iwasaki Mr. BIRD: I am sorry. I did miss that offered to pay half of this to the Govern part o.f the question. There is absolutely :nent. I forget the exact details of it, but no reason for any graduates to feel that, 1t was not a matter of the Government's because they have taken other employment, demanding anything from Mr. Iwasaki. It they will not be abie to obtain employment was on an entirely different basis. From w1th my department. If their records are what. I understand, or recall, it was part of good and their achievements during their the !nfrastructure of the whole project in training period meet the requirements of my relation to the land owned by the council. department, I can see no reason why they should not obtain employment as positions become available. I suggest to all graduates EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITIES FOR that they keep in touch with my regional TEACHER GRADUATES directors of education so that they can obtain employment as soon as vacancies Mr. INNES: I ask the Minister for occur. Education: Could the Minister outline the Mr. INNES (Sherwood) proceeding to give reasons for the lack of positions available for newly graduated teachers? What are the notice of a question- prospects for the placement of these grad Mr. K. J. HOOPER: I rise to a point of uates in the forthcoming months? Is there order. The honourable member for Sher any truth in the suggestion that graduates wood has already asked two questions without 2426 Questions Without Notice [11 DECEMBER 1979] Questions Without Notice notice, including a supplementary question, this highly secret gathering was held was and has given notice of one question for owned by a Mr. Lloyd Williams, who is now tomonow. He is now attempting to give revealed as the managing director of Hudson notice of a fourth question. I seek your Conway Holdings Pty. Ltd. and a central ruling, Mr. Speaker. figure in the Gold Coast million dollar bribe scandal? How much has the Hudson Conway Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The honourable company donated to the Bjelke-Petersen member is about to deal with his third ques Foundation? tion. I call the honourable member for Sherwood. Mr. BJELKE-PETERSEN: The honour able member for Archerfield spends all his Mr. CASEY: I rise to a point of order. time trying to confuse the public and, by Does that mean, Mr. Speaker, that on future innuendo and questions of this nature, seek occasions, if M,jnisters fail to answer a ing to imply that something is suspicious section of a question asked without notice by when in fact it never happened. Whatever a member of the Opposition, we can claim the Minister for Local Government and Main entitlement, as the honourable member for Roads went to Melbourne for is of no concern Sherwood did, to have it answered? to the honourable member, nor is it of any concern to him why I went to Melbourne. Mr. SPEAKER: Order! It was not a sup I would not know who owned the house at plementary question. As I understood the which I had dinner. Unlike the honourable honourable member for Sherwood, he was member, I do not go round snooping and try reminding the Mini~ter o.f a part of the ing to find out all sorts of things. I respect question which he believed the Minister had the men with whom I had dinner. I apprec not dealt with in his answer. It \Vas not a iated their gesture towards me, their interest supplementary question. in Queensland generally in so many ways and the investment that they have made in this Mr. CASEY: I rise to a point of order. State. Unlike the honourable member, who Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I call the honour is always trying to pull down and destroy, able member for Sherwood. I ask the Leader these are men of high reputation who have of the Opposition to resume his seat. contributed a great deal not only to this State but to the rest of Australia. Mr. CASEY: I rise to a point of order. My point of order-- A.L.P. ATTITUDE TOWARDS GoLD CoAST CrrY Mr. SPEAKER: I have heard the honour CoUNCIL'S PROPOSED REZONING OF SoUTHPORT able member's point of order. LAND Mr. CASEY: My point of order, Mr. Mr. GYGAR: I ask the Minister for Local Speaker, refers ,to the statement that you Government and Main Roads: Has his at'len have just made. You allowed the honour tion been drawn to recent Statements by able member for Sherwood to remind the the Leader of the Opposition protesting at Minister of a portion of a question that had the $1,000,000 land rezoning deal invOilving not been answered. Does this mean that, the Gold Coast City Council? Does he note on future occasions, we in the Opposition any similar protest by the honoumble mem can expect you to give a similar ruling when ber when his A.L.P. colleagues on the B!1is questions are not answered by Ministers? bane City Council pull similar s'tu.nts nearly You have established a precedent, Mr. every day of the week, as they have been Speaker. doing for years? What is the reason for this selective indignation of the Leader of Mr. SPEAKER: Order! That is not ne.ces the Opposition? sadly correct. The Leader of the Opposition Mr. HINZE: The comments of the Leader is a:Hempting to misconstrue the facts. of the Opposition must matke strange reading Mr. Casey interjected. for the many thousands of people in the city of Brisbane who have been suhjected Mr. SPEAKER: The Leader of the to the trealiment of a Labor council for Opposition wiii not be here to ask any ques many, many years and have been intimidated tions if he continues with that at,(itude. into mailciiJJg contrvbutions towards local go.v The honourable member for Sherwood mav ernment aotivity jn this city. The Leader of proceed with his notice of question. - the O])IPOSition has made statements and claims about the present Gold Coast City Council. However, he should be aWJare that HuDSON CoNwAY HoLDINGs PTY. LTD. the mayor of the GoJid Coast, the chairman of the Gold Coast City Counoil's Health Mr. K. J. HOOPER: In asking a question Committee (Alderman O'Connell) and of the Premier, I refer to the highly sus Alderman Laws are members of his own picious Toorak thanksgiving dinner last July party. The council voted six to four in in support of the Bjelke-Petersen Foundation favour of the deal. The six votes in favour which was hosted by the Melbourne land i\Vere from meanJbers of the A.L.P. If there shark, Ian Rice, and at which he and Sir ds anythiiJJg wrong, I suggest the Leader of Robert Sparkes were the guests of honour. l!he Opposition have a long telephone talk Is the Premier aware that the home in which with his own colleagues. Questions Without Notice [ll DECEMBER 1979] Children's Services, &c., Bill 2427
Mr. Casey interjected. Mr. D'ARCY: I shaJI put on notice that part of the question relating to the number of Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I warn the Leader cases. o
proper, loving family day care mothers. large, I am aware that at the introductory !F1leribility must be aUow;ed for. Fencing stage some members expressed concern that should not be insisted upon, or such things members of Parliament would use such a as tlhe number of toilets and the cons,truction provision as a method of grandstanding of the building wi'th regard to fire hazards. by saying that they were concerned and Sudh an attitude would take out of the •therefore would like to foster children. I do market some hundreds of homes that now not agree with criticism of that sort. do a very good job in caring for children. Fostering ought to be equitably appLied. They provide a caring atmosphere and the Whether or not a member of Parliament is sor,t of alternative child care facillity that genuine can be gauged by the people, any is very much in demand in the tyiPe of area way. The privilege of fostering ought to r represent. be available to him as wdl as to anybody The Minister said that if the State Gov 'C!se. ernment does not provide proper regul1ations, As I said at the introductory stage, I the Comrnonweahh Government win set approve of the amendments. The Opposition them up in any event. The State should will support them. However, I conclude be in control of what it is doing. Altlhough by sa)Oing that I am concerned about lobby il support this amendment to the Ch~ldren's ing by private day-care operators around Ser,vices A:ct, I ask the Minister to confer Australia because they are losing some of on the proposed regulations with people their market to family day care. I hope who are involved, particularly the Family that we do not see any stealthy denial of Day Care Association, so that there may the oppovtunity to run a facmi:ly day•care be broad agreement on what is needed. centre by regulations that will make a mother ineligible because of the standard At the introductory stage I cdticised the of her home. A child feels much more at Government for Lagging behind in the pro home if taken to a similar home environ vision of welfare facilities. The Minister ment. There has to be a relationship between took up my point witlh regard to the Youth the family day-care mother and the child's Services Programme and said that the Gov natural mother. If a child were to go from ernment had an agreement in principle with a little flatette in West End or East Brisbane the Federal Department of Social Security to sumptuous surroundings in a f,amily day as eady as July this year. I take the Minis care centre, the child itself would experience ter's point. I did not know that that some degree of trauma and find the environ was so. Why was no allowance made in ment difficult to settle into. the Budget to finance that particular pro gramme? I assure the Minister that if he I hope that the people involved in family looks at the Budgets for the States of New day care are considered and that the Minis Soutlh Wales and Victoria he wiH find al1oca ter will use the services of his office to tlions of funds for such things as crisis acnd guarantee that the family day-care pro refuge accommodation for homeless children. gramme, which is only five years old but is !J: will go one step t:urther and say that meeting a tremendous need in my electorate those State Governments have been providing and similar areas, goes forward and is not money out of their own coffers in previous held back by regulations that are too years, but the Queensland Government has restrictive and serve no purpose other than done nothing in that area. I appreciate the to disallow the provision of the facility in opportunity that the Minister gave me to particular homes. comment on that. I believe tlhat I can justify my criticism. Mr. UNDERWOOD (Ipswich West) (12.48 p.m.): I rise to suppo~t this legislation, par The next amendment I wish to deal with ticulady that aspect that deals with the need is in regard to the secrecy provisions relating to set up regulations fO'r family day care. to the notification of chi:Ld abuse. I believe Having myself been involved fm some four the Opposition shadow spokesman for Health years in a community day-care centre, I wi11 make further comments about them. appreciate that those centres are already I must reitemte that it is absolutely luducrous operating under regulations. I realise also that the Government has stiH not proclaimed that there is a necessity for regulations. the regulations making it mandatory for tlhe medical profession to report cases of child One of the problems with day-care centres abuse. I know I spoke at some length on is that the people sponsoring them, actively this subject at the introductory stage, but participating in committees for 'them or it appears to me that we still have some operating them, are community-spirited months to wait before that will happen. I people but are untrained. lif family day care again make the po.int that the Government is to be run properJy, _definite guid"-Iines has not been progressive in implementing need to be laid dO'wn in regulations. The much needed reforms and changes in the regulations have to be basic, specific and ,weLfare area. I1t has been very tardy in detailed. As pointed out by the member for that regard. South Brisbane, they need to be flexible to allow for the various environments encoun In relation to the third provi,sion, which tered in our cities and towns. As he pointed allows members of Parliament to foster out, the various ethnic environments are children, thus not placing them at a dis quite different from British or Aus,tralian advantage in terms of the community at suburban environments. Children's Services [11 DECEMBER 1979] Act Amendment Bill 2431
Before family day care was introduced after the children of other people, very in Ipswich fDur years ago, chiidren were grave responsibilities are cast upon her. taken to backyard child-minding establish Because of that, day care mothers ought to ments. They were virtually the backyards be supplied with basic information and given of homes. There were innumerable instances basic training. of babies and young children being left out Most honourable members would, have had in the sun for all or part Df a day, getting more experience of d,ealing with yo~ng terribly sunburnt and having nothing to do. children than I have had, but I am surpnsed A woman and, say, her daughters may be by how little people know about the devel looking after a couple of dozen children. opment of children and about their healt):l The chil]dren are dropped off in the morn and hygiene requirements. For example, If ing, left to their own devices all day, and a child develops a temperature, a person then picked up in the evening by the mother might pass it off as being only the prelude Dr the father. The person looking after to a cold, when in fact it could be something those children during the day receives a more sel'ious. In a case that came to my handsome recompense for her trouble, but, attention recently, a child developed a tem unfortunately, the children who are left in perature and then went into convulsions her care have a very deprived pre-school because the parents were not sure what they childhood. should do. If a situation such as ,that arose As all honourable members are aware, in a day care centre, the person in charge that is a very important stage in a child's must know exactly what to do and do it as development, a stage at which it needs to quickly as possible. In addition to introduc be stimulated mentally and given love, care ing regulations, the Government should and affection, so that when it reaches school ensure that some form of basic training is age it will have the ability to make ·its way available so that there will be no excuse through the school system successfully. for not providing the best possible care for Those honourable members who have been children. involved in schools will know that one can I support the Minister's proposal to bring quickly ascertain in grade 1 and grade 2 down regulations. groups which children have, for various reasons, been left to vegetate in their earlier Mr. D'ARCY (Woodridge) (12.54 p.m.): years. They just cannot make the grade. 1 direct my remarks particularly to the They become victims of the system and, proposed amendment dealing with child as they grow older, become the problem abuse. For a very long period, I have people of our society. Therefore, I see a been pressing in this Chamber for the intro definite need for the introduction of regula duction of legislation to deal with child tions to ensure that people who are not abuse. When the amendments of the Health trained-and in this field 1he great majority Aot to which the Minister referred were are not trained-are given some guidance, brought down in 1978, I said that I did not and so that .those in authority have some believe that the legislation went far enough. basis on which to carry out their duties. Since then, that legislation has not been pro claimed. However, as the Minister said, I congratulate and thank the officers of this Bill will help facilitate its proclamation. the Department of Children's Services who are involved in this work for their excellent Over the years, the Government has professional approach to the supervision and adopted a totally unhealthy attitude to the guidance of people involved in family day child-abuse problem, just as it has to sex care. Although the section is understaffed, education and related subjects. It has buried the people in it are doing a magnificent job its head in the sand and not looked at all the with the limited resources available to them. implications. It blames the parents for the problem, but does not give them the where I should like to see a co-ordination of withal to deal with it. Queensland and Commonwealth ·regulations relating to family day care. There are some In 1976, the late John Herbert was Minis very obvious differences, but I shall not ter for Community and Welfare Services. At go into them now because the Bill does not that time, New South Wales had recently relate to them specifically. However, I am proclaimed legislation making it compulsory sure that co-ordination of regulations would for doctors to report all incidents of child be of great benefit. bashing. In contrast, the Queensland legi slation has remained unproclaimed for more Day care mothers need basic training. than 12 months. Although most mothers have some knowledge of health and hygiene for babies and young Mr. Herbert had said that it was not the children and some knowledge of the develop Government's job to prosecute; he saw the Government's role as one of giving advice. mental processes, many people are ignorant He claimed that society wanted revenge. on these matters, which become particularly However, that does not help the children. important when a mother is looking after Punishment of parents is like closing the gate children who do not belong to her. If a after the horse has bolted. It is far better mother is looking after her own child, she to save one child than to prosecute 10 has complete control; when she is looking parents. 2432 Children's Services [ll DECEMBER 1979] Act Amendment Bill
In 1976, Mr. Herbert said that the Queens idea of the figure in this State. As was land Government was not considering legisla admitted by Mr. Herbert in 1976, the inci tion like that passed in New South Wales. dence is on the increase. Now that it has been considered, it remains [Sitting suspended from 1 to 2.15 p.m.] unproclaimed. The Government is doing nothing to help Mr. D'ARCY: Before the luncheon recess parents who are unable to control their I referred to an announcement in "New actions and who abuse their children. Mr. Doctor", the magazine of the Doctors' Herbert had said that the Government did Reform Society, that this month special not want to frighten parents with the threat interest would be taken in child abuse in of court action. The only person who suffers, Queensland. Accurate figures have not been of course, is the battered child. kept of child abuse in Australia. Since the legislation was introduced in New South I am told by doctors and medical super Wales in July 1977 almost 1,000 cases a year intendents of hospitals that up to 10 per cent have been reported. It has been estimated of the children who are kept in closed wards that about 25 per cent of all fractures in and are nothing more than vegetables, who lie the first two years of life are due to the in swaddling clothes on the floor in sunny battered child syndrome. positions and who are not expected to live beyond their teens, are in that sad situation Sexuallv abused children in Queensland because they were bashed by their parents. have been neglected. Such offences are It is quite obvious that no action is taken rarely reported, even in States that have either to punish the parents or to help them. passed the relevant legislation. This problem That is a sorry state of affairs. in our society must be looked mto more deeply. The problem is not well recognised, The scuttle-butt is that children are being although it is a surprisingly common one. made to suffer-in one instance, a child was There is a high level of professional denial even murdered-because three Government about it. It is a fact that doctors have not departments cannot make up their minds as been reporting cases of child abuse. With to which one will enforce the legislation when mandatory reporting, doctors would at least it is proclaimed. start to bring the problem to the fore so that children and parents could be treated. On 18 October, in answer to a question that I asked, the Minister for Health said The magazine "New Doctor" had this to say- "The amendment to the Health Act referred to by the honourable member has " Although the facts of child abuse are not as yet been proclaimed. well accepted, there is still a tendency for doctors not to want to make the diagnosis "The Co-ordinating Committee on Child in their own practices. There are many Abuse under the chairmanship of the reasons for this. Medical education in the Director-General of Health and Medical past has not provided training in how to Services, with representation from ... the understand this problem, or how to deal Children's Services Department, Police with the families responsible. Doctors Department," tend to be much more at ease in the and so on. traditional role of making sick children better and having their parents grateful In other words, those three departments have for this." been delaying the proclamation of that legisla tion. It is pleasing to see that in this Bill Doctors have not accepted the fact that the Minister is clothing with secrecy persons child abuse exists in society. They tend to who report incidents of child abuse. He has denv that a child has been abused. They said that this will help facilitate the proclama are· strongly tempted not to recognise the tion of the amendment to the Health Act. condition because of their uncertainty about how to deal with parents, the fear of legal It is time the Government woke up to what involvement, including the time taken up is going on. We are not provided with with legal proceedings, and a feeling of realistic figures of the number of incidents inadequacy to prevent further incidents. of child abuse. Recently, when I asked Doctors should be concerned about future the Minister for the number, he said that incidents of child abuse. It seems that cer the only figures he had were those reported tain factors contribute to child abuse. In by the Mater Hospital for the period from 1976, the then Minister, Mr. Herbert, pointed July 1977 to July 1979. Over that period, out that the problem was getting worse. 190 cases had been reported. He went on It is becoming worse because of alcoholism to say that 128 cases were reported to the and socio-economic problems. These days, Royal Brisbane Hospital between June 1977 with socio-economic problems becoming and June 1978. worse under Torv Governments in Australia, The monthly magazine of the Doctors' child abuse is -becoming more and more Reform Society states that in the United prevalent in society. States of America, in which the reporting At long last the Minister has done the of incidents of child abuse is mandatory in all right thing about preserving the secrecy of States, the annual incidence of child abuse is those who report child abuse. However, 200 to 300 cases per 1,000,000 of popula there is still no provision about mandatory tion. The Queensland Government has no reporting. Although the legislation provides Children's Services [11 DECEMBER 1979] Act Amendment Bill 2433
for mandatory reporting by doctors, it does the second reading; I intend to endeavo_ur not involve teachers, social workers and to secure agreement of all interested parties others dealing closely with children who are before the regulations are promulgated. covered by the legislation in other States. I make the point that this year's Bu~get I take it that the provision the Minister has contains an allowance for the Youth Services introduced will be in line with action taken Programme. It is a dollar-for-dollar arrange by other departments under the Health Act. ment with the Commonwealth. The only prob The Government has a history of utter, lem that we have had since the decision was complete negligence. The Press, too, has a taken by the Government to enter into this history of negligence. Children in Queens arrangement in July has been to resolve land can be battered, and even murdered, agreed guide-lines with the Comii_lonwealt~. I yet the Government remains completely am in the process of forwardmg detailed inactive. When the Press reports such guide-lines to Senator Guilfoyle in the hope incidents it gives the stories big, front-page that she will agree with them and ratify headlines. On 14 April 1978, an article in them. Then the scheme will be able to go "The Sunday Mail" carried the headline, ahead. "Doctors to report child hashers." The law As a matter of interest, provision was made eventually came into operation on 2 Novem ber 1978. On 23 May 1979, we asked why last financial year for emergency beds for it had not been proclaimed. The Minister crisis accommodation within the State's exist said- ing arrangements. The honourable member can rest assured that the problems of the " The detailed procedures involved in homeless have not been neglected and that recent legislative changes regarding notifi there will be a major stepping up in our cation of maltreatment of children are efforts once the Youth Services Programme being finalised by my department's Co begins to operate shortly. ordinating Committee on Child Abuse, and the Act will be proclaimed in the near The honourable member for Ipswich West future on completion of the necessary pro referred to the family day-care regulations. cedures." I assure him that the regulations will be framed within the spirit of the Children's In October 1979, in answer to a question, the Services Act, bearing in mind the overall Minister said it was proposed that the amend welfare of individual children. ment would be proclaimed in early 1980. The honourable member's expression of The Ministers cannot control their depart appreciation to the members of the staff of ments. They are unable to get a decision the Department of Children's Services has from the Police Department, the Children's been noted with thanks. Services Department and, most importantly, the Health Department. To some extent I In regard to the co-ordination between the absolve the Children's Services Department proposed Queensland regulations and the because it has not been the major fly in the Commonwealth funding requirements, I can ointment with the administration of the legis only repeat that I intend to endeavour to lation. It is disgraceful that legislation can secure the agreement of all interested parties. be passed by Parliament but not proclaimed In reply to the honourable member for for 12 months, particularly when it refers Wnodridge, I woU'ld like to make the fol directly to the health and well-being of the lowing points: The Department of Children's children of this State. While the Government Services has had a specialist child protection fiddles, we are allowing children to be admitted unit since the beginning of 1977. This unit to closed wards in this State. consists of a small group of experts in the I congratulate the Minister on the other aetiology or oauses of abuse, and in the principles of the Bill, particularly the intro care and treatment of children who are duction of the secrecy regulations. I have abused. Presently associated with this unit personally rung the department in the past is a consultant paediatrician and former pre in relation to child abuse. I have been told sident of the A.M.A. (!Dr. H. W. A. over the phone that the department can do Forbes) who is recognised in Queensland as nothing and will not investigate the matter. one of the experts in the field. If that is said to a member of Parliament, I discussed in some detaiJ in my second what support can a member of the public reading speech the fact that there has been expect? Under this Bill, secrecy will be pre a system of voluntary reporting to the Direc served and perhaps more cases will be investi tor, Department of Children's Services for gated. The department might start to keep a number of years--V~oluntary reporting for statistics on child abuse and treat both the
Brisbane metropolitan area, and in all the As I indicated at the introductory stage, other areas to which I have referred, there the Bill prorv;ides for the continuation of has been co~operation between the Depart wheat marketing arrangements for five years ment of Children's Services, the Police commencing wiVh the 1979-80 season. I Department and the He,alth Department and thank honourable members for their support the various he~lping professions. of the principles of the Bill. 'J1he honourable member referred-! can The wheat industry has had the benefit not recall his eJCact term-'to squabbling of orderly rrmrketing arrangements for many between public servants as a cause for the years. This orderly ma11keting ,jg based on non-proclamation of the amendments to the Australia"wide complementary legislation. Health Act. What I have just said about 11he necessary Commonwealth legis:1ation has the co-operation that presently exists answers already been passed. that criticism. I would say further that the 11he honourable member for Bundaberg co-ordinating committee on child abuse, to sMessed the need for the continuation of which the honourable member has referred, these ordel'ly marketing arrangements. The has worked harmoniously and skilfuUy from Bill does continue the arnangements gener the very outset. ally and in many areas improves UtP
to deliver wheat to a destlirration other than Mr. BLAKE (Bundaberg) (2.38 p.m.): the State Wheat Boaro in certain circum Naturally the Opposition has no argument stances. I outlined these circumstances in with the intent of the Bill. The matters some detail during the first reading and I contained therein were argued and fought do not propose to go over them again. long and hard before a consensus of opinion was arrived at by all majority sections of the Ho.wever, I stress that the order1y market wheat industry and by the State and Com ing arrangements will be protected through monwealth Governments. in"bui1t controls exe!'cised by t1he board and through the pooliing arrangements. These The major facets of every wheat agreement arrangements, in the case of grower to end have always been the result of hard bar user sales, provide l!m a contdbution from gaining, negotiation and compromise. This .these transactions to the maintenance of the one has been no exception. As a matter of centr;al receival and sto11age system, which is fact, I think that this agreement has seen an essential part of orderly marketing. the hardest bargaining and negotiation of any I have known, encompassing as it does Members have indicated their wholehearted the whole ambit of wheat marketing on a support for the increased level of first national scale. The resolution of the many adrvance suworted by the guaranteed mini differing points of view and separate sec mum price. 11he new arrangements will tional interests under the one Aot through mean that growers will receive a substantial compromise and agreement is a major exer proportion of their final pool return at the cise at any time. This Bill is designed to time they deLiver their wheat. implement the results of the latest agreement reached, and it would be an exercise in For the 1979-80 season, the Honoura:ble obstruction, futility and indeed irresponsi P. J. Nixon, Minister for Rrimary Industry, bility to attempt to substantially interfere ihas announced that the level of the guaran with such an agreement. The Opposition, I teed minimum price wiii be $114.71 per might say, has no intention of at•tempting tonne. Returns to individual growers will to do so. be oa1culateid by deducting handling and ~to~a~e charg.es, the finance fund levy, the There are some aspects of the Bill, how ~ndwrdual frerght rate, hail insurance prem ever, on which I would like to comment. No lums, the researoh levy and any wheat quality price formula is likely to please everybody; dockages. This will mean that most Queens but a human consumption price formula land grorwers will receive a net figure in that has a reasonable starting price and takes eXJcess of $86 per tonne for A.S .. W. wheat into account export prices and growers' cost .this season,- compared with about $62 per is a responsible one. The factor limiting tonne last season. So what has been lost in price variation in successive years to not quantity wii:l to some extent be made up more than 20 per cent of the previous year's in price. I believe that, because of today's price should iron out any of the wild costs, there is a real need for the increase fluctuations in price to home consumers in the initial pa:}'ment. or return to producers that result from the wide variations in export prices that have The domestic p:dces for wheat have now been seen in industries that depend on export been announced by the Australian Wheat ing a large percentage of their production Board. The human consumption price for overseas. wheat will be $130.78 per tonne for the 12 months commencing 1 December 1979. The provision to update the domestic cost This price includes a Tasmanian freight load component each year in keeping with realistic ing of $3 per tonne. costs of efficient production is fair and necessary, provided the index is objective The pro¥ision in the Bill for the Australian and independent. As the index under this Wheat Board to set the price of stockfeed wheat agreement will be maintained by the and industrial wheat according to its com Bureau of Agricultural Economics, I expect mercial judgment has resulted in much spec that it will be independent, fair and well ulation over the last few months. The matter informed. has now been resolved. Industrial wheat will It is to be hoped that the power of be $131 per tonne from 1 December 1979 the Australian Wheat Board to establish to 30 June 1980, increasing to $136 per tonne consultative groups to advise it on pricing for the next five months. Stockfeed wheat for stock feed and individual wheat will be has been set at a base price of $130 per invoked if major disagreement arises, either tonne for A.S.W. wheat. This price is on the wheat-producer side of the industry expected to be reviewed fortnightly by the or the consumer side of the industry, over Australian Wheat Board. prices that may be set from time to time. The wheat marketing and pricing aiTange Some concern has been expressed that ments covered by the Bill have been deter the high level of the guaranteed minimum mimed. These arrangements will allow price, or first-advance price, as it is some growers and the industry to look to the next times called, could run into trouble if the five ~ears with security and some degree of estimated average returns are not realised certamty. because of depressed prices. The Opposition does not intend to be too critical of that I commend the Bill to the House. aspect. The high cost structure of the industry 2436 Wheat 1'vfarketing Bill (11 DECEMBER 1979] Wheat Marketing Bill t<;day is such that producers need a sig Stabilisation Fund. This is particularly so nificant return early: If that is not provided, as the fund begins to resolve when it reaches many producers will have delivered crop the $100,000,000 level. a~sets that cannot be realised upon until the distant, and often indeterminate, future. They Acmong pr]mary producers ,there is a could well be. referred to as being as poor natural and justifiable resistance ,to tying up as the proverbial church mice in the interim too much grower money 'in a fund. Above period, despite considerable harvest assets a certain Ievel, that is most urrdesirruble. The upon which they cannot realise. real owners, that is, the prodUJcers, could ibe making !better and more profitruble use of . The overall ~e.sponsibility for financing any their own money in a manner oif their own discrepancy ansmg from first-advance price choosing. and non-realisation of estimated-price sales should be an industry and a Government I appreciate the principle of enabling the concern. The extortionate cost of fuel alone lboavd to obtain funds from other than the is a prime example of the increased cost Reserve Bank. Theoretically, this rwill widen structure facing primary producers today. As the flexibility of the .board's financial aocom the Minister pointed out in his second-reading modation, to the ultimate advantage of the speech, it is not only the cost of fuel to 'wheat prodUJcer. It :is aLleged, for example, the primary producer; it is the cost of that such fleN~bility in lending should result bunkering fuel and the cost of shipping. in the speeding up of the completion of the pools. TheoreticaUy, this is 1cormct. Horw They are passed through and eventually have ever, knowing the difficulties that other to be borne by the primary producer. The institutions such as local authovities are price of fuel is expected to rise by from encountering in obtaining finance from 3c to Se a litre shortly. When one realises sources other than the Reserve Bank, the that the machinery and plant on a wheat Opposition wonders how much dearer by r:roperty slurp up thousands of gallons-not way of interest the new sources of finance htres-of fuel at these inflated prices, one will prove to be. Dearer money rwi11 mean can understand that a small guaranteed higher costs and these will have to be passed minimum delivery price is neither fair nor on eventually to the pmducer. Indeed, in tenable. the long term, they will have to he passed Fuel consumption in the wheat industry on to the 1consumer as rwell. That ~is undesir and other primary industries cannot be aJble if the financial institutions are getting avoided. As I have said before, the idea a rake-off from lending money and ilf costs that a high price for fuel will reduce con are being passed on to the consumer. sumption is a fair assumption only when :I am !particularly interested in the :pro one is speaking of motoring for pleasure. v,isiorrs relating to 'wheat that may not 1be The only way in which a primary producer delivered to the hoard. Recentlry I read ~an or other essential user can reduce consump adver,tisement headed "Let's hack Joh! ". It tion is by reducing activity and reducing said that "The Sunday Mail" of 8 .Alpril 1979 production. The argument that a high fuel contained the follOIWing- price will reduce consumption in essential "Joh Critical olf Wheat Board Wandoan industry is absolute rot. A reduction in consumption will mean only a reduction in -The Premier (Mr. Bjelke"Petersen) said production. What is the point of cutting yesterday he ihad to give l!IWay 1wheat down on rural production to save fuel when grown on ihis Kingaroy property to a neigh the Federal Government is paying consid lbour because he was not allowed to sell erable incentives to secondary industry in an it. attempt to earn revenue overseas? To carry "Under present marketing arrange that argument through to its illogical con ments, rwheat grown by .f)a,rmers could ,be clusion would lead to a complete negation sold only to the Wheat Board. It could of the Government's policy in that respect. not be sold outside the !board, hut it could be given away. In most instances, inflated interest rates "'~he Wheat Board is far too rigid', would apply also to any bank accommodation he said. H would have to do something needed by a producer by way of bridging to heLp 1growers who rwere unahle to sell finance if he had a small first-advance pay their wheat. ment. As the Federal Government is already "The A.B.C. News ~morning 9-4-79) benefiting to the extent of $2 057 million quoted the Premier: 'He said he ,was con a year in increased revenue fro~ fuel excise leerned that soon the rest:dctions placed by charging OPEC or Arab prices for locally on wheat growers could cover 'the growers produced .oil, it should ~ able to arrange of all grains.' " cheaper mdustry financial accommodation than an individual producer if bridging That advertisement was published by an finance is needed. organisaHon known as the Ninety-Trwo AssociaNon. Some honoumble members The transfer of $80,000,000 of growers' might know more rubout it than I do. The money from the Stabilisation Fund to the point I arn making is that the Premier is Wheat Finance Fund, and its increase to ,oriticising the Wheat Board and also the $100,000,000 within the first year by a concept of !bringing in grains under what levy of $2.50 a tonne, is an acceptable might be termed orderly marketing 1by alternative to the concept of the old Wheat boards. Wheat Marketing Bill [11 DECEMBER 1979] Wheat Marketing Bill 2437
The Opposition is totally in support of the When the Bill becomes law, the State principle contained in the Bill as it relates Wheat Board will bring its procedures into to the orderly marketing of wheat, whether line with the very sensible provisions 'in the it he consumer wheat, industrial wheat or legislation. I hope that that is done very stockfeed wheat. AlpparentJy the Premier quickly. It is a very poor advertisement for does not believe this to be a good thing. I Queensland when the Premier of the State hope that the Bill will alter his opinion. knocks orderly marketing in our great Aus As I have said before, the majority of pri tralian wheat industry. The basic principles mary producers throughout Australia have of the Bill have the Opposition's absolute found that, ,if they revert to the private support. The negotiations on the agreement enterprise concept of each person dealing were well worth while. The provisions with the buyer, they win occasionaJ!y but in embodied in the Bill covering all sales of the long term are much worse off. wheat are a distinct improvement. According to the Minister, the Aust,ralian Hon. V. B. SULLIVAN (Condamine Wheat Board will continue to be responsible Minister for Primary Industries) (2.55 p.m.), for exporting wheat, flour and certain in reply: I thank the honourable member wheaten products, and will also continue for Bundaberg for indicating, on behalf of to be the sole authority for the domest]c the Opposition, a ready acceptance of the marketing of wheat. A greate-r degree of Bill. This is to be expected because the flexibility will be introduced under the new matter has been well and truly argued by scheme. Firstly, there is the case where the the industry, the Commonwealth Govern grower wishes to retain wheat for use on ment and the State Government. When the farm where it was grown. The Aus legislation is readily accepted by the people tralian Wheat Board will not require delivery in the industry, it must be good legislation. of such wheat. Government members have not concerned The Minister said that the second category themselves with it because most of them relates to ,inferior wheat that would not be went through the Bill in the committee and acceptable if it were delivered 1o the board, joint party meetings, and they accept its and to seed-wheat. A grower may serve contents. notice on the board, by post, that he has such wheat and, if a person authorised by I assure the honourable member for the board is satisfied that the wheat comes Bundaberg that the formula used for vary within that category, he may issue a declara ing the domestic price for human consump tion in writing that the Act does not apply to tion wheat will be in very independent hands. it. That is an eminently sensible situation. The Bureau of Agricultural Economics will The grower is then free to dispose of it. be preparing the data to be used in the formula. According to 'the Minister, the third categ I agree that the level of the first advance ory relates to wheat that a grower wishes to is reawnably high but I stress that, in these move to a mill for gristing and return to days of high farm costs, a high level of him. In other words, an owner may use first advance is absolutely essential. his wheat for his own purposes. It is right that that should be so. The honourabJe member made a very valid point when he said that primary producers The fourth category relates to wheat that cannot reduce fuel usage. That is very true. a grower wishes to move from one farm If they try to reduce fuel usage in producing to an associated farm. If I interpret the Bill a crop, they either do not plant as many correctly, provision is made for that provided hectares or do not sufficiently work the crop a permit is issued, the board's officer is and the seed-bed and, as the honourable satisfied that the case is genuine and the member said, that would result in loss of movement is not to the detriment of the needed production. orderly marketing of wheat. The honoumble member referred to the The fifth category deals with direct grower interest cost of funds raised by the board to-buyer transactions involving wheat that outside the Reserve Bank. This matter is would normally be delivered to the board. fully covered in the Bill. Where such finance The Bill provides that a grower who wishes is raised to relieve the Reserve Bank's por to engage in such a transaction will give tion, the interest rate actually paid by the notice in writing to the board. The notice board will be subsidised down to the Reserve will give full details of the quantity, grade Bank rate. As soon as the legislation is and price. In such cases, the board may passed, the State Wheat Board will be look authorise the grower to make a sale on behalf ing at the question of bringing its pro-cedures of the board. That situation is similar to into line with what is proposed in the Bill. the marketing of fish under the Fish Board The honourable member for Bundaberg whereby a fisherman may declare his catch levelled some criticism at the Premier for and, without sending it to the board, have its a certain stand he has taken. It is not for sale approved by the board. This provision me to speak for the Premier; he can do eliminates transport of the product 1o the that pretty efficiently fm himself. This board and bringing it back before selling legislation has been before the Bills com it with the approval of the board. This is mittee and the joint party meeting, and it another eminently sensible provision. has the complete support of the Premier. 2438 Fire Brigades Act and [11 DECEMBER 1979] Another Act Amendment Bill
Mr. Blake: These provisions should approval should be given for appointments to satisfy him. all positions and not just to the staff numbers in brigades. The amendment will ensure that Mr. SULLIVAN: Yes. He has accepted the council's approval is required only to the them readily. That is all I can say in that principal positions. regard. Brigade staff presently have a right of I am pleased that the position of Federal appeal against promotion, or against punish Minister for Primary Industry has been ment imposed by a board for breaches of determined following the resignation of Ian by-laws. Such right does not apply to clerical Sinclair. I pay a very high tribute to him positions, including the position of perman for his work in agriculture. We will be ent secretary, of which there are four. The hearing a lot more of him. Bill extends appeal rights to the clerical staff Opposition Members interjected. by omitting the positions from the present exclusions. Mr. SULLIVAN: Here we go. They wHl Amendments to the schedule of the Act pick at the bones. That is all they are think will provide that a fire brigade employee may ing of doing. We wi11 hear more of Ian Sinclair playing a magnificent part in the be suspended if charged with an indictable political sphere for the betterment of the offence, giving the board chairman an alter native to having to be of the opinion that the rural sector of Austmlia. That is my pre employee is guilty of misconduct or neglect, diction. particularly when the matter may have to Mr. Wright: That is not what the Cattle be determined by a court. men's Union said. A further amendment will allow a fire Mr. SULLIVAN: The honourable member brigade to be used for non-fire-fighting pur is out of date. He was absent for eight poses, such as rescue work, if it has suitable weeks while Parliament was in session. He equipment. Fire brigade boards will also be does not know what has been going on given power to recover charges which they about the place. Anyway, I do not want presently have authority to make. to start an argument. Other amendments will also clarify that I am pleased that a man of the calibre consequential loss insurance is excluded from of Mr. Nixon has been appointed to one the definition of "fire insurance" for the pur of the major portfolios. Because of poses of fire brigade contribution which is experience gained in acting in this portfolio, payable on the actual fire policy. he will do the job excellently. Provision will also be made to clarify that, Motion (Mr. Sullivan) agreed to. in proceeding to a fire outside the brigade district, the chief officer takes the necessary personnel and equipment. CoMMITTEE By-laws will also be allowed to cover the (Mr. Row, Hinchinbrook, in the chair) discipline of brigade employees by way of Clauses 1 to 36, both inclusive, as read, dismissal or other punishment, against which agreed mo. there is a right of appeal. This is to clarify the present punishments which include a Bill reported, without amendment. maximum fine of $100. The Bill will also ensure, in relation to THIRD READING fire insurance policies, that the original inten Bill, on motion of Mr. Sullivan, by leave, tion in the 1976 amendment with respect to read a third time. maximum loss policies is observed, that is, that the total amount is subject to fire brig ade contribution. FIRE BRIGADES ACT AND ANOTHER The provisions with respect to short-term ACT AMENDMENT BILL policies or reduced or increased policies are also clarified. SECOND READING As regards the Fire Safety Act, amend Hon. R. E. CAMM (Whitsunday-Min ments are being made so that a fire brigade ister for Mines, Energy and Police) (3.1 p.m.): board employing one fire safety officer may I move- make suitable arrangements during his leave "That the Bill be now read a second periods, and also to allow the payment of time." fees to be prescribed where notice is given In introducing the Bill, I indicated the var of substantial alterations to premises already ious matters in respect of which the Fire covered by a fire safety certificate. Such a Brigades Act is being amended. Presently fee would be considered in light of the fact the approval of State Fire Services Council that dealing with such applications for is required for the appointment of fire brig amended certificates is very time consuming ade staff. However, although the council for the fire safety officer. has restricted such approval to the appoint An amendment will also allow the State ment of chief officers and deputy chief Fire Services Council to approve the exten officers, it has received legal advice that sion up to the whole area of a local authority Fire Brigades Act and [11 DECEMBER 1979] Another Act Amendment Bill 2439 where a fire brigade board has responsibilities in practical demonstration in the use of under the Act in respect of part of the local portable fire-fighting equipment. Plans are authority area. This will facilitate the obtain in hand for an emergency drill in the near ing of certificates covering new buildings or future during the parliamentary recess. alterations to existing buildings which also The member for Mt. Isa raised the matter require local authority approval. of the Mt. Isa brigade's hydraulic platform. Provision is also made to exempt from the In the period between the original loan Act premises not more than two storeys high approval and the delivery of the unit, and not more than 500m2 used for private because of very heavy inflation, cost increases residences or for teaching purposes provided occurred over which the State Fire Services the public are not admitted for entertainment Council had no control. There was full con purposes. Premises in the outbuilding category sultation with the board and every co-opera are also included in the exemptions. tion given with quite a number of visits made either by council officers or the plat As I mentioned when introducing the Bill, form supplier. However, in the matter of these exemptions were originally approved welding defects, the council indicated that by regulation which was repealed when the inspection of welding was not a function of Solicitor-General further advised that this its staff. may now more properly be done by an amendment of the Act. I also stated that I propose in the Committee stage to move the satisfactory means of egress would still an amendment to clause 14 of the Bill to be provided under the Standard Building provide an exemption with respect to certain By-laws. ancillary rooms in schools and other educa tional institutions, and also to provide that I replied generally to matters raised in the the exemptions in the clause shall have introductory stage, in some cases on aspects retrospective effect to 28 July 1979, the date of fire brigades and fire protection not cov of gazettal of the regulation which was ered by the Bill. I will comment briefly on repealed. That was done in view of the further matters mentioned during the debate. need for an amendment to the Act. The member for Port Curtis raised the I commend the Bill to honourable matter of the house owner having to pay members. for equipment for high-rise building protec tion. However, I can assure him that the Mr. VAUGHAN (Nudgee) (3.8 p.m.): fire brigade levies payable on the insured During the introduction of the Bill I men value of such buildings is very much higher tioned that I did not believe that because under the present basis than when calculated a person was prudent enough to insure his on premiums. He also mentioned the cost property he should then have to carry the of running fire brigade boards, but the bulk of the cost of the State's fire brigade approved expenditure for boards is only system. I pointed out how the change in slightly over the percentage increase for the method of calculation of the fire brigade average weekly earnings. levy as from 1 July 1978 was adversely affect The member for Nudgee mentioned the ing many home owners, in particular home question of shopping centres and night unit owners. I quoted the example of Nudgee shopping. The Fire Safety Act does not College, which is in my electorate. Accord presently apply to shopping centres con ing to my information, as a result of amend structed before it came into operation. How ments to the Act in April 1976, it is now ever, such premises may be brought within required to pay an extra $2,000 a year the scope of the Act by issue of an Order towards the cost of the upkeep of the State's in Council. Fire safety and fire prevention fire brigade system. I repeat what I said officers of the Metropolitan Fire Brigade are at the introductory stage: because the whole currently visiting large shopping complexes. community benefits from the existence of the The co-operation of management is being fire brigade service I believe the whole com obtained and is very much appreciated in munity should share the cost, not only those ensuring that all possible steps are taken to prudent enough to insure their property. allow the safe evacuation of buildings should In his introductory speech the Minister it become necessary. There is a regular referred to investigations that were taking programme of visits to premises where there place in other States. He said that when the are lange numbers of people. results of those investigations were known the Queensland Government would consider As regards LP gas, tanker drivers are the practicability and desirability of revising required under the gas regulations to avoid the system. I have since become aware of where practicable passing through streets in the recently published report of a committee which buildings with four or more storeys of inquiry into South Australian fire brigade or in which office and shop buildings are boards. That report clearly accepts that "fire prevalent. Delivery is also restricted during protection has developed beyond safe-guard certain hours without the approval of the ing the insured risk of insurance companies Chief Gas Examiner. . .. into a general and essential service for The member for Brisbane Central raised the whole community." The committee in the question of fire safety in Parliament South Australia, which was established in House. There are floor control officers for October 1978, determined that "a new method each level of this building, and these officers of funding which is more equitable to all have received lectures and have participated those \Vho are potential beneficiaries of the 2440 Fire Brigades Act and [11 DECEMBER 1979] Another Act Amendment Bill
services of the South Australian Fire Brigade Court-that it was not a basis on which he is needed". Four recommendations were could validify appeals under the provisions made in regard to the findings of that of the Fire Brigades Act. committee. I do not think that any employee should I believe that the time is l'ight for a change be so prejudiced in his employment. It would to our current system. Some of the facts have been reasonable for the Toowoomba I referred to at the introductory stage about Fire Brigades Board to have found alter the Metropolitan Fire Brigades Board support native employment for the employee con my argument. Certain contents of the Bill cerned. However, it dismissed him and, as I ! will refer to them shortly-support my said, although he tried to appeal and pursued contention that there should be a change that right through to the Full Court, he was in the method of financing. The current unsuccessful. I should like to see the Act method places too much onus on one section amended to provide that where an employee of the community. of a fire brigade board is dismissed under Although the amendments to the Act are, such circumstances, avenues of appeal are in the main, straightforward ones, I would open to enable him to appeal against the like •to make brief comments about some severity of the sentence imposed on him. clauses. The provision relating to appeals The Bill also contains a new rule 25 against promotions or punishments has been headed "Fire Brigade may be employed for amended to include clerical employees. other purposes", which provides that a board Recently a case involving a chap by the may employ the whole or any part of a fire name of Maurer was brought to my notice. brigade provided by it or use any equipment He had been dismissed by the Toowoomba of the board for purposes other than fire Fire Brigades Board because he lost his fighting purposes. As I said earlier today, and C-class licence, which he required to drive also at the introductory stage, the Govern a fire engine, as a result of a conviction for ment is introducing legislation to make it driving while under the ·influence of liquor. legal for a fire brigade board to be employed According to the Toowoomba board it was a for other purposes, and fire brigades are now term of his employment that he should have taking on a role that goes far beyond the a C-class licence. I understand that he sought role of fire fighting. I think that supports to appeal to the board, but ihat he only had my argument that the cost of fire brigades a right of appeal if it could be said that he should be borne by the whole community, had been dismissed for a breach of discipline. not only by the people who deem it necessary The matter was referred to the Minister, to insure their properties. who took the view that this was not a breach of discipline but a straight-out breach Provision is also made for the recovery of his contract of employment. Consequently, of moneys. I understood the Minister to he had no right of appeal, and there was a say at the introductory stage that some refusal to constitute an appeal board. problems had arisen. Although provision is made already for fire brigades to charge Bearing in mind the amendments before us certain sections of the community for the today, and the provisions of the Act, I believe services it renders-and that provision has that something needs to be done to overcome been in existence for some time-the fact is such circumstances. The Act refers to a that boards that have tried to recover these procedure for appointment to certain posi charges have been unsuccessful. tions, and appeals against appointments and punishments. Although the Act refers to I am advised that the board failed to appeals aga•inst appointments and punish recover the cost of false-alarm calls to the ments, it is significant that Mr. Maurer was University of Queensland. I understand that denied an avenue of appeal. The basis on such calls are fairly prevalent, and although which he was dismissed was that he had a charge of $33 is made, the actual cost is breached his contract of employment and, in the vicinity of $63 or $70. Accounts have although it could be regarded as a breach been sent to the university, but they have not of discipline to some extent, the Act refers been paid, and I envisage that the amendment to punishment. I believe that this was a now proposed will provide a solution to that punishment of that person. problem. I was interested to note another amend In 1977-78, the Metropolitan Fire Brigades ment that refers to the right of fire brigade Board had 11,000 calls. Of these, 1,353 boards to make by-laws to provide for the involved monetary loss, 899 were to insured disciplining of employees by way of dis premises, 454 were to uninsured premises, missal, reduction to a lower rank or rating, 3,015 were to grass and rubbish fires-and fine, caution, reprimand, etc. If a fire one can imagine the cost of those to the fire brigades board is to take action against brigades board-and 6,147 were to false an employee~in this case a fire officer; he alarms. If the prudent person who deems it was not a clerical person-to the extent of necessary to insure his property has to foot dismissing him because he lost his C-class the bill for such calls, it is an unfair impos licence, I believe that he should have a right ition on him. The situation must be of appeal under the provisions of the Fire reviewed, and I am pleased to note that the Brigades Act. However, the decision was Minister said that the Government is prepared and it was subsequently upheld by the Full to study what is happening in other States Fire Brigades Act and [11 DECEMBER 1979] Another Act Amendment Bill 2441 and bring about a change in the method of This contdbution covers some of the respon financing the fire brigades system in this srbilities taken by fire 'brigades in addition State. to protecting people from fire. As I said at the outset, I have studied When it comes to 'collecting money for the Bill and cannot find anything untoward false alarms, as it were, it is very difficult in it or anything further on which the to locate the culprits. That is why the fire Opposition would like to comment. brigade boards and the State Fire Services The Minister referred to the concern Council have not been ruble to collect aJl expressed by me at the introductory stage the money owing to them for attending in relation to large shOipping centres, parti fires on uninsured premises and answering cularly those that engage in night shopping. false alarms. .£ note the Minister's comment that fire Motion (Mr. Camm) agreed to . 'brigade offiicers are currently visiting large shopping centres. I rum :pleased to see that this is h<~~Ppening. I understand that they CoMMITTEE have visited the shopping centres on earlier (Mr. Kaus, Mansfield, in the chair) occasions, and I hope that as a result of my comments the large shopping complexes, Clauses 1 to 13, both inclusive, as read, pa,rt,icularly those engaged in night shopping, agreed to. will adopt the safety standards that are laid Clause 14--.oAmendment of s. 3-Premises down lby the fire brigades. exemrpt from or parti~lly affected by Aot- The fire lbr1gades do an excellent job, and I take this opportunity to compliment all Hon. R. E. CAMM (Whitsunday-Minister fire bdgade officers, particularly those in for Mines, Energy and Police) (3.26 p.m.): the metropolitan area, for the job they do. I move the following amendments- ,I note the ,Minister's comments concern "On page 5, line 21, after the words ing tanker drivers. Ahhough they are advised 'Amendment of s. 3.' insert the expression to avoid certain areas, it is dangerous for '(!)'." LPG-tanker and petrol-tanker drivers to and- drive through heavy traffic. Consideration " On page 5, line 34, after the word should lbe given to this aSipeCt with a view 'pulj)Oses' insert the words- to improving road srufety. '(which includes use as a staff room)'.'' Finally, the Opposition supports the BilL and- "On page 5, line 37, omit all words Hon. R. E. CAMM (Whitsunday-Minister comprising lines 37 to 39, both inclusive, for Mines, Energy and Poli:ce) (3.21 p.m.), in and insert in lieu thereof the following reply: I thank the honoocable member for words- his contribution and for his support of the amendments. He spoke about new methods '(d) premises consisting of a single of final11Cing fire brigades. As I indicated at storey being one or more of the the introductory stage, these will be looked foHowing:- at. (i) a toilet; The amendment of 1 July 1978 did not (ii) a dressing room for use by per take away from insurance companies res sons emgaged in any sport or ponsilbiHty for final11Cing fire brigades to the educational activity; extent of 75 ,per cent of the total cost. All (iii) a store room having a floor area that amendment did was take away the not exceeding 30 square metres, method of levying that was necessary to a cleaner's room or janitor finance fire br~gades. Previously, the levy groundsman's room used by or on was based on premitm1s; now it is based on heha!f of any school, college or sums insured. Although some anomalies did other educational institution in a exist under the previ<>US system, certain building of which the total anomalies have shown themselves under the enclosed floor area does not present system. As indicated earJier, we !Will exceed 500 square metres;'." be looking at various methods of financing and- fire brigades. The result of investigations "On page 6, line 21, after tJhe words 'a carried out in other States will enruble us to road' insert the following words- decide whether or not it is necessary to have a separate investigation or to adopt '(2) The amendment to the Principal some of the findings arrrived at in other Act made by subsection (1) s:ha11 be States. deemed to have taken effect on 28 July 1979 and shall have retros'J)OCtive effect The honourable crnernber said that fire accordingly.' " brigades should not have total responsibility for alJ aspects of fire bdgade duty such as These amendments make things more se1f freeing ,people from vehides involved in eX\I)lanatory so far as the department is con accidents an:d rescuing rpeople. I remind the cerned. House that 12-! per cent of the finance is Amendments (Mr. Camm) agreed to. provided by the State Government and another 12-! rper cent by local authorities. Oause 14, as amended, agreed to. 2442 State Government Insurance [11 DECEMBER 1979] Office (Queensland), &c., Bill
Clauses 15 to 17, both inclusive, as read, wordings and the principle of age excesses. agreed to. Voluntary excesses are also available to Bill reported, with amendments. clients if they so desire. In those cases where an insured is involved in an accident and is wholly or partly to THIRD READING blame and an excess applies to his or her Bill, on motion of Mr. Camm, by leave, policy, that person must meet the amount of read a third time. the excess. However, in those cases where the insured is blameless-these cases are generally limited to vehicles damaged whilst parked or at rest-the insurance compa?y STATE GOVERNMENT INSURANCE will attempt to recover the excess for 1ts OFFICE (QUEENSLAND) ACT client. AMENDMENT BILL The honourable member also referred to SECOND READING the degree of negligence in a!! accident . at an intersection having traffic bghts. I w1sh Hon. L. R. EDWARDS (Ipswich-Deputy to assure the honourable member that, just Premier and Treasurer) (3.31 p.m.): I move because the police may breach a motorist "That the Bill be now read a second involved in an accident, that does not mean time." that from a common law viewpoint, there Briefly, the two amendments proposed to the has 'not been some contributory negligence State Government Insurance Office (Queens on the part of the other driver. land) Act are (1) the deletion of the require In a court case several years ago arising ment for the State Government Insurance from an incident similar to the accident Office to keep a general reserve fund follow mentioned by the honourable member for ing the separation of the workers' compensa Chatsworth concerning a collision at an tion function from the State Government intersection controlled by traffic lights, the Insurance Office, and (2) the clarification judge pointed out that there is no guarantee of alternative procedures in cases of disputed that the lights are functioning correctly and, claims of either proceeding to arbitration 1herefore the onus is on all motorists to or pursuing common law rights through the proceed ~ith the same caution as if 1raffic courts. lights were not installed. The honourable member for Bulimba I thank honourable members for their referred to workers' compensaNon benefits. These are matters coming within the respons contributions at the introductory stage. ibility of the Honourable the Minister for Mr. HOUSTON (Bulimba) (3.34 p.m.): The Labour Relations and I suggest that •the principles of the Bill were well canvas~ed honourable member might refer those mat at •the introductory stage. I should hke •ters to the relevant Minister. I am sure to reply to the Minister's comments on the that he would be interested in the honourable requirement for those taking out insurance member's comments. I shall draw the Min to pay the excess. Honourable members ister's attention ·to the honourable member's might recall that this excess started off at a speech. The honourable member also men verv small amount but has gradually tioned workers' compensation investments. increased, particularly in conwrehensive I advise 1hat workers' compensation invest insurance policies. I feel that th1s develop ment policy has been under the authority ment has to be watched very carefully, of the Treasurer since •the separation of th~ because we could reach the stage where, workers' compensation function from the because a motorist has to accept an extremely State Government Insurance Office, which high excess, the insurance company could became effective from 1 July 1978. Under endeavour, through one of its officers, to my administration, all workers' compensation encourage that motorist not to claim under investments are made in gilt-edged securities his policy when he sees the amount of excess and have been made solely in Queensland for which he has accepted responsibility. local authority loans and Government build ings. The Treasury Department has invested We could get to the stage where motor $18.4 million of workers' compensation funds ists could constantly be talked out of making during the financial year 1978-79 and, as at claims for fear of losing their no•claim 1 July 1979, the total investment of workers' bonus. As a result the motorist would be compensation funds was $146 million. insuring pretty heaV1ily but receiving no value for it. I think there is a cut-off point. The honourable member for Chatsworth Because the Treasurer would be well aware referred to policies of insurance companies, of the type of thing to which I am refer including the State Government Insurance ring, I will not go into details. Office, in relation to excess clauses contained in comprehensive motor vehicle insurance The same situation applies with regard and third-party property insurance policies. to our traffic laws. The Treasurer referred I assure ·the honourable member that the to the decision of a judge some years ago. State Government Insurance Office is not a I do not propose to discuss that decision, party to a cartel. It has adopted industry but it is a fact that, human nature being practices relating to policy conditions and what it is and living in the society we do, State Government, &c., Bill [11 DECEMBER 1979] Motor Vehicles, &c., Bill 2443 people belie-ve that i:f a traffic light is show CoMMITTEE ing green it is safe to proceed through an (Mr. Kaus, Mansfield, in the chair) intersection. Clauses 1 to 3, both inclusive, as read, Mr. Akers: You mean it is safe to go agreed 1to. through if there is no red? Bill reported, without amendment. Mr. HOUSTON: No. H a motorist sees a green light, he assumes that the lights to 'THIRD READING his right and left are showing red. Bill, on motion of Dr. Edwards, by leave, Mr. Jooes: You can't see anything e1se. read a third time.
Mr. HOUSTON: That is right. The motor ist cannot see, so he assumes that every MOTOR VEHICLES INSURANCE ACT thing is all right. AND ANOTHER ACT AMENDMENT Great problems have arisen with that type BILL of insurance following court decisions that, SECOND READING in the situation to which I just r.eferred, both drivers are culpable to a degree. Let us .Hon. L. R. EDWARDS (Ipswich-Deputy consider this situation. A motorist might Premier and Treasurer) (3.41 p.m.): I move have a very old car valued at, say, only "That the Bill be now read a second $200. H might be good enough for him, or time." perhaps all he can afford to run. He might go through a set of traffic lights and coUide Honourable members will recall that the with a very expensive car. Because of the proposed amendments in respect of the Motor value of his own car-we wHl say a couple Vehicles Insurance Act relate briefly to--- of hundred doJlars---and the fact that the (1) Extension of the liability of the damage to it might by $200, that is all he Nominal Defendant to cover untraceable can get, anyway. But if the other person's insurers under our compulsory third party vehicle is badly damaged, even if he is, say, motor vehicle insurance system; 80 per cent responsible for the accident, the (2) exclusion of air cushion vehicles from innocent person would be up for far more the normal insurance requirements of the than the value of his own car and thered'ore M'otor Vehicles Insurance Act; and he would not be covered accordingly. (3) small changes in wording to This is a problem to which the Treasurer correct inadvertent errors in the original and those respons~ble for controlling the legislation. registration of insurance companies will have In respect of the V.I.P. Insurances Limited to apply themselves. After all, one of the Act, the amendments relate to- reasons why insurance companies are regis (1) Increase the aggregate liability of the tered in this State is to make sure that their Nominal Defendant from $500,000 to terms on offer to the general public, and enable the Nominal Defendant to satisfy their application of the fine print on their the increased number of claims where poHcies, is in the interests of the insured vehicles were insured by V.I.P. Insurances and not just the interests of the insurance Limited, which went into liquidation on companies. 19 April 1978; With those exceptions, we accept the Bill. (2) clarify the time limit for notification of intention to claim against the Nomina:! Hon. L R. EDWARDS (Ipswich~Deputy Defendant; and finally Premier and Treasurer) (3.38 p.m.), in reply: (3) small changes in wording of academic I thank the honourable member for Bulimba interest only. for his contribution. I respect his views, but The honourable member for Bulimba irt must be said that the insurance companies raised queries on a number of points. In do not make the traffic laws. It is the Par relation to the payment of an interim amount liament that makes those laws and the police otf damages prior to settlement of the claim, who have to enforce them. there have been instances of such payments by insurers when liability has been deter Mr. Houston: But we don't want them to mined. Whilst I cannot answer for all capitalise on weaknesses that are apparent. insurers, I am aware that advance payments have been made following representations Dr. EDWAR:DS: I do not think that they from solicitors act'ing for injured people, to will do that. I am sure the honourable mem prevent their waiting for a long period of ber would be aware that insurance companies time. have to work within the system laid down by the courts. This is a difficult problem Regarding the payment of an annuity in for both the insurance companies and those lieu of a lump sum, this has been carefully who insure with them, and I am sure the considered and investigated in the past, and honourable member recognises that. it has been found that the subject is fraught with difficulties. This is why suoh Motion (Dr. Edwards) agreed to. a system has not been introduced in other 2444 Motor Vehicles Insurance [11 DECEMBER 1979] Act and Another, &c., Bill
States and countries at this stage. A major It is problematical whether this House would dra\vback to an annui1ty scheme would be a have accepted a Bill indicating that it would need to establish an organisation to handle cost the Nominal Defendant $1,500,000. the regular payments and this, of course, I am not suggesting that we oppose this could lead to further increases in premiums. Bill. As the Minister said, claims have been As to a retrospective application of lia made. I do not want to advocate unfair bility in case of untraceable insurers, it treatment of those people in such an unfor would not be possible to ascertain how many tunate situation. We now find that the num people could be involved. Some actions would ber of claims, then suggested to be 80, now be statute barred and, of the few known total 138. That is a tremendous increase of cases, applications for extensions of time to claims, indicating that there were claims the make a claim have been rejected by the company either did not know about or with courts. Retrospectivity could involve the held from the Treasurer. As to the amount of money-we were then told $500,000, and Nominal Defendant with an unknown lia we are now told $1,250,000, an increase of bility of perhaps millions of dollars, and 150 per cent. I am glad that the former a drain of funds to this extent would require Treasurer is in the House. He should explain an increase in the annual fee payable by how that deficiency came about and why motorists. Arrangements made for the fullest he was so keen to use the words "it is possible retention of records will now ensure confidently expected" that that amount was that the number of claims from this source all that would be required. Now we are told should be minimal. that it is confidently expected that $1,250,000 The honourable member for Bulimba also will be required-150 per cent more. referred to the V.I.P. Insurances Limited and The American insurer responsible has paid retrospectivity of the liability of the Nom only $987,983 to the liquidator. That means inal Defendant and the increase of liability that less than $1,000,000 has gone to the to $1.25 million. I wish to point out that liquidator. Let us bear in mind that the the V.I.P. Insurances Limited (Motor Veh company was wound up at the direction of icles Insurance) Act amendment concerning th.e Commonwealth because it did not comply retrospectivity is to correct some doubt as wrth the Insurance Act. Although that money to whether the existing wording is adequately has been paid by the company to the liquid expressed to ensure that the Nominal Defend ator, there is some doubt that it can be ant's liability will apply only to claims notified made available to those to whom the comp bv 31 December 1978. I think this may any is in debt. Legal action will have to be b~ what the honourable member meant. In initiated in New South Wales and Queens regard to the increased amount of liability, land. We all know that legal action is not it is mentioned that the Nominal Defendant's a cheap process. One wonders just how total expenditure will be reduced by a much-I am sure the Treasurer will be able liquidation dividend to be eventually paid by to tell us-of the $987,983 that the liquidator the company's liquidator. is getting from the American company will be available for distribution when the company The honourable member for Brisbane Cen is finally wound up. tral made reference to lower insurance pre Although we do not oppose the Bill--we miums paid by primary producers, and I realise people could be adversely affected confirm the fact that all premiums, as I through no fault of their own, and it is not said in my reply at the introductory stage, our desire to stop their payment in any way- are determined as a result of the loss ratio the Government has to look more closelv of each particular class. Statistics supplied by at the type of arrangement that is made in the insurers indicate that the claims experi relation to insurance companies that have ence of primary producers warrant the lower encountered problems. premiums charged. Hon. L. R. EDWARDS (Ipswich~Deputy Mr. HOUSTON (Bulimba) (3.45 p.m.): The Premier and Treasurer) (3.50 p.m.), in reply: main aspect that I want to speak on at the I thank the honourable member for his second-reading stage is the history of V.I.P. contribution. He mentioned the activities of Insurance Limited. Without wishing to go that insurance company, which is a matter of into the introduction of the relevant legisla great concern. We hope that sort of thing tion, I point out that one of the statements does not occur again. It has occurred on a made by the then Treasurer (now Sir William number of occasions in the past. Knox) was- Mr. Houston: You were pretty inaccurate "It has been deemed appropriate to in the information you gave to the Chamber. limit the Nominal Defendant's net liability to a maximum of $500,000. It is confi Dr. EDWARDS: Not really. The previous dently expected that this sum will be more Minister introduced the matter ,in prillciple. than sufficient to meet known outstanding At that sta~Je, there was no way ia which claims and any other claims that may the Minister or an)'1body else, including the emerge." Opposition, would know how many claims were to be made or the amount involved. That was on 18 May 1978. In future the The Government made it quite clear through Government has to look much more care the Nominal Defendant that it would accept fully at such occurrences when they arise. its 'responsibilities, and >it has done that. As Transplantation and [11 DECEMBER 1979] Anatomy Bill 2445
I said at the introdU!ctory stage, it rs .~mpor must cert1fy that the consent 'was freely tant to note that there has been no additional given and that the donor had been properly charge to enable the Nominal Defendant to advised of the consequeruces of the donation. continue o,perating. I am advised also that since May 1978 more claims arose up to the Second,ly, designated officers have the duty limitation date of 31 December 1978. It to obtain the necessary consents for the was thought that ·reinsurance would he pay donation of tissues from dead persons, for able to the Nominal Defendant, but this has post moJ;tem examinations and for been found not to he possible legaJ!y. anatomical examinations. Where the wishes of the deceased person with respect to Although I appreciate the .points that the donations after death, po&t mortem or honourable member has raised, I am sure anatomical examinations are not known, the that he is aware that the Government has consent of the senior available next of kin accepted the principle and that the Nominal is required. There has been a corresponding Defendant is fulfilling his ohligation. provision concerning consent by the senior Motion (Dr. Edwards) agreed to. available next of kin in the existing Medical A:ct provisions. COMMITTEE The honourable member for Woodridge (Mr. Kaus, Mansfield, in the chair) also referred to the delay which may oc:cur Clauses 1 to 13, both inclusive, as read, because of the necessity to obtain the con agreed to. sent of the coroner for removal of tissues for tmnsplantation in a case in which the Bill re~ported, without amendment. deaUh must be notified to the coroner. Sec tion 70A of the Medical Act makes a similar THIRD READING pro;~ision and has caused no real problems in practice. The reason, of course, is that Bill, on motion of Dr. Edwards, by leave, this situation arises where Uhe potential read a third time. donor has suffered total irreversible loss of brain function and the circulation and re~piration are being maintained artificially. TRANSPLANTATION AND ANATOMY The process of establishing that total irre BILL vers1ble cessation of brain function has SECOND READING occurred takes some time, Wlhich is usually adequate for all necessary consents to be Hon. Sir WILLIAM KNOX (Nundah obtained. Minister for Health) (3.53 p.m.): I move As I said in introducing this Bill, a defini "That the Bill lbe now read a second tion o.f death is included. The second part time." of the definition concerns the cectification At the introductory stage of the Bill, the of death where there has been total irre honourable members for vVoodridge, Too versrble cessation of brain function. I woomba North and Loo~yer indicated sup should make it clear tha~t this pm;~ision of port for the BiH and referred to several the Bill has very limited applicattion. It does matters of particular interest to them. not permit life-support systems to be with The honourable member for Woodridge drawn from a person who has suffered severe expressed corucern about the licensing of brain damage; it only applies where total private hospitals. As I said in my com irreversible cessation of brain function has ments ·at the conclusion of the ·introduction occurred. of the Bill, and as honourable members will To ensure the protection of the donor, the have seen in clause 5, hospitals must have IBiH requires certification of the death by adequate facilities ibefore they are licensed. two medical pracTitioners, one of whom shall The licensing of a rprivate hospital merely be an awropriate specialist, both of whom enaihles the hospital to appoint a designated shall have examined the patient, neither of officer who can carry out the duties olf a whom is involved in the management of any designated officer with respect to a :person potential recipient and neither of whom shall or body in the hospital. Designated officers remove the tissue. At least three medical have several functions. Firstly, they are p~aotitioners must be formally involved in requirred to ensure that ,consents for .Jive the process and, in proctice, :many more donor tissue donations are properly obtained. are Likely to be involved. The process of The draJft Bill proposed lby the Law Reform deciding that total i,rreversible cessation of CO!mmission provided that the consent by a bnain function has occurred takes many live donor is to be signed by the donor other houl1S, sometimes several days, while tests wise than in the rpreseruce of members of his and clinical examinations are performed. family or his friends. The rpu11pose of this is to remove the donor from people who may The honourable member for Toowoomba be exerting considemble pressure on him. North has refenred to the use of pituitary We considered that the sa~me result may be glands removed during post mortem examina more satisfactorily achieved by requiring the tions for the production of pituitary hor donor to give his written consent in the mones for the t'reatment of certain diseases. presence of a designated officer who is not As set out in the Law Reform Commission otherwise involved in the donation and who report, there is a very successful national 2446 Transplantation and [11 DECEMBER 1979] Anatomy Bill
programme for pituitary gLand proces!1ing by The Bill refers to designated officers. The the Commonwealth Serum Laboratories, Minister told us categorically that three doc Wihkh has been conducted for several years. tors will control the taking of organs for 11here has airways been some concern that transplantation and, under most circumstances, this pmg;romme has not had legisla·tive auth that should be sufficient. I am still not com ority, and the Bill now seeks to proVJide pletely satisfied that the provisions in the that. Bill relating to private hospitals are adequate. Very few private hospitals in Queensland have The Government has decided that the Bill the necessary back-up services and facilities will not provide for donations of tissue to carry out transplant operations of any eJCcept blood by living persons under the magnitude. Any private hospital that is age of 18 years. The Law Reform Com licensed under the Act should be fully mis,sion proposed to a:llow live donor dona equipped to carry out a transplant operation tions by children, but there has been con and to ensure that a donor is legally dead. siderable concern among medical practition ers and others about this, particularly w1th In overseas countries questions have been respect to donations of non-regenerative raised in courts of law on this issue. We do tissues. not want similar instances in Queensland. The Minister is correct in providing that there The Bill incm:porates the provisions of must be three doctors to corroborate death. the Sale of Human Blood Act, e~tending He said that private hospitals and other them to cover human tissue generally. The hospitals must have the machinery to ensure Government agrees that the sale of human that a donor is legally dead. X-ray machines tissue and blood is not a desirable practice and those that record electroencephalograms and it is not the intention of the Govern are certainly essential. Although the bigger ment to permit this. However, the BiH does private hospitals have such machinery, some give the Minis:ter power to authorise such hospitals that could be licensed may not have a transaction if particular specia:l oircum the necessary back-up medical services. s:tances occur. Whereas public hospitals have doctors on I am aware that manry people share the stand-by, at times doctors in private practice view of the honourable member for Lockyer are not available. Even big private hospitals, that removal from bodies of org·ans for which obviously would be permitted to carry t.ranS!Planrtation should be more or less auto out such operations, could have difficulty in matic. The Government, however, has not getting doctors in a hurry if a donor and applied this pl'iruciple. recipient became suddenly available. The lack of doctors and the necessary machinery 'I1he existing provisions of the Medical Act could lead to a dangerous situation in ensur concerning donations of tis,sues from dead ing that the life of the donor was extinct. persons, post mortem eJCamination and ana tomical eX!aminations have required for their At the introductory stage, the honourable sat·isfactory operation the general under member for Toowoomba North said that it standing, co"'Operation and goodwill of next is the brain function and not the heart of kin and of the communhy at liarge. This function that is impo·l'tant. He claimed will still be recuHing under the proposed and I oow to his medical knowledge-that Bill. it is the brain of the donor that must be However, the Government, like the three dead. He said, as the Bill provides, that mernbers Wlho have already spoken, and the a person can be declared dead while his Australian Law Reform Commission in its h~art is stirll beating, although many people report, acknowledges that the commun±ty at might regard th S?'I?e publicity. He certainly got some pub should have remained on the table until the licity when the hospitals were not able to next session so the whole of the medical maintain emergency power supplies. But that profession, including physiologists and is the fault of the Government. research people (especially those in the surgi Some private hospitals do not adopt the cal field) could have given a great deal more Government's code and do not have an thought to it. emergency power supply. Will that fact be The honourable member for Woodridge taken into consideration? The Minister said made certain comments with which I agree that the emergency power units at State totally. He mentioned emergency power hospitals do not have to operate for 24 hours. supplies to hospitals. I want to chastise the It is up to the Government to make sure Department of Health for its lack of pro that they can work for 24 or 48 hours. vision of emergency power supplies. A num It is a fact that the emergency power units ber of years ago most unions would not inter in hospitals have not been serviced and rupt essential services, but recently it has maintained well enough to operate for long become politically expedient for unions to periods. interrupt them. The unions have got at the public-the innocent and those who can The Government does not even call in a not defend themselves-by cutting off the tradesman when a power unit breaks down power. One group that has been badlv h1t or a fuse blows. I have pointed out that, is our hospitals, be they public or private. I think the week-end before last, a fuse blew at the P.A. Hospital, which handles When I went to Townsville in 1953 I soon the linen from the Moreton Bay Nursing discovered that I was living in an area that Home, and the Government would not pay was prone to cyclones, yet when I went to the to have a tradesman come in and repair it. hospital I discovered that it had no emer So that nursing home had no clean laundry. gency power plant. The sterilising system was The capacity of private hospitals to under run by boiler-pressure steam. When the boiler take such operations is still in question, and failed, naturally the current failed and the I do not think that this matter is covered fans that kept the boiler face cool ceased sufficiently by the Bill. functioning. The Minister referred to the sale of organs In 1956, a big cyclone hit Townsville and and blood, with the consent of the Minister. the power failed. Had it not been for dn This must be a first for Australia. I hope old coke stove in the hospital, we would not that provision is not used in Queensland. 'have been able to operate on the people Unlike many other countries, we have had injured in the cyclone. After that cyclone, good blood donations for a long while. The the department came under a lot of pressure Opposition is not terribly impressed with that to buy the old generators that were being dis provision. The sale of organs and blood carded by the eletricity boards throughout the could lead to undesirable practices, as it north and west of Queensland following the has done in many other countries. A wealthy introduction of new electrical grids, but it country like Australia should not require would not do so. It did not think such such a provision. I can see that that might action was necessary. It never occurred to possibly be the reason for the Minister's the department that at some time in the introduction of that provision. future we would face an emergency such as we faced recently. The Bill has been badly needed-it has certainly been welcomed by the A.M.A. As a result, the Townsville hospital now has and I believe that the general public will an inefficient emergency power plant. During accept it. They will now know where they last Tuesday's power strike the lifts did not stand as far as many of the provisions out work, and if someone had been severely lined in the Bill are concerned. With the injured it would have . been necessary to exception of those points which I have just carry him up two flights of stairs to the made, the Opposition agrees with the Bill. emergency operating theatre. A base theatre had been installed on the ground floor for Dr. SCOTT-YOUNG (Townsville) (4.11 cases of emergency, but this has now been p.m.): This is a rather interesting Bill. I removed. This sort of bad planning seems to feel that it should have been allowed to permeate the Health Department and I think remain on the table so that more discussion the officers of the department should sit down on it could have taken place, not necessarily and consider the introduction of emergency by members of Parliament but by the medical power plants. If a major surgical procedure profession, because it raises questions of ethics has to be deferred simply because there is and law. It will be feund that the law relat a. power shortage, there is something wrong. ing to transplants is rather vague and that One point that has to be considered by members of the medical profession have all members is the suitability of certain hos rather mixed views on the ethics relating pitals to undertake transplant operations. It to transplants. There is also confusion in is all right to take regenerative tissues such the medical profession about the use to as skin, bone marrow or a kidney from one which transplants can be put. person and give it to another. However, A large number of medical practitioners do before a kidney or a cornea can be taken not really understand which tissues can be from a cadaver, one has to make sure that transplanted, or even which tissues survive the person is dead. How is that indication is considered to be the cessation of embryonic tissue as there are with adult of brain function. A hospital without an tissue. Embryonic tissue does not give the EEG machine should not attempt to do immune response that adult tissue gives. transplants. Therefore, all hospitals that are The Department of Health and the law allowed by law to do transplants should must carefully watch and monitor any trans have an EEG machine before transplants planting of any tissue. Otherwise before we are contemplated. They should also have a know where we are the experimenters will special room or off-theatre to an intensive have moved from the sublime to the ridicu care ward where badly injured people, whom lous and will have started experimenting a doctor knows clinically will not survive, with living tissue, as some novelists are now can be kept. I can tell when a person is writing about. going to die, no matter what is done for him. I would like to diS'Cuss the setting up of units for the purpose of teaching anatomy. Under the law, if a person still has func Such units oould he set up in district base tion of his brain, his organs such as the hospitals where there could be schools of kidneys and eyes cannot be removed. He anatomy. There seems to be a de~plorable will also haYe function in his heart and lack of knowledge of anatomy among junior respiratory system. A man can still breathe and even senior residents. For some unknown and his heart can pulsate for days and days. reason, our medical course has downgraded Recently Dr. Christian Barnard said that to anatomy. There is nothing so frustrating as transplant a head was unethical, immoral and seeing a suligeon completely and utterly Jost impracticable. In that sort of case there is in tissue. He is like a drunk trying to open only a heart/lung preparation, and that is a door, who fumbles and drops his key. I not necessarily a sign of death. A man's tremble at the thought of the resultant tissue head can be removed, but his heart and lungs darrnage when a surgeon is fumbling around will continue to pulsate for days. without knowing what he is doing. If a hospital is to undertake transplants, Thought must given in the medical curri it must haYe both an EEG machine and a culUITil to the establishment of more medical special room where badly injured people can S'Chools in which anatomy is taught. Greater be put. That equipment must be set up in emphasis must be rplaced on it, and more intensive-care wards-not one of each but extensive facilities must be provided for the perhaps half a dozen of each. If the Depart teaching of anatomy. No-one can under ment of Health is to administer this Bill, stand the functions of the human body it must proYide more equipment for use medically or surgically unless he has a very in intensive-care wards. sound grounding in anatomical knowledge in other words, the structure of the human Wards for the placement of badly injured body. It is a most essential part of medicine. persons who will not recover must be set I hope that the State Olf Queensland takes up in close proximity. There is no need to notice so that we pl:ay a leading role in the clutter up an intensive-care ward with a teaching of anatomy and in medical science man who is so badly injured that he will not generally. recover. That sort of thing only creates Save for those, I have no comments. It is problem;;. A badly injured person has to be time that this t)~ of legislation was induded subject to monitoring and, when that indi in our statutes so that these practi:ces are cates that he is dead, at least two doctors regulated and controlled by the Government. I would prefer three-can make the decision Once they come under the control of ,the on whether the apparatus can be stopped Government and rigid rules apply, they are and his organs removed. I would also prefer removed from the arena of ex.perianentaJ that the doctor who is to do the transplant and dubious research. operation have nothing to do with the making of that decision. It is only under those Mrs. KYBURZ (Salisbury) (4.22 p.m.): I circumstances and with those facilities that wish to raise a ferw small poinrts, not the hospitals should be allowed to undertake least of whioh is that this is an extremely transplant operations. important Bill. The Opposition spokesman believes there is some reason for thinking I am worried about trading in organs. With that transplants might take pJace in other the moral attitude and the ethical approach than major hospitals. It is a moot point to abortion in these days, it would appear in that hospitals which are not major wou1d that no-one has much respect for human not have the equirpment necessary for these life. One finds that the same people who operations. advocate abortion will protest against potential war. However, at the same time I am concerned about clause 8, which they will destroy an embryo and uterus and reads- have no compunction in doing a hysterotomy . a reference to tissue shall not be on a child of a viable age and discard read as including a reference to foetal it. If the situation is not carefully watched, tissue, spermatozoa or ova." there could easily be organised abortions to I would Eke to ask the Minister about the get embryonic tissue, which at the present regulation of a srperm bank. I know that moment is being experimented with in certain there has been some diSICussion about it in areas of the world. There are not the same the .past. Some doctors were haping to problems associated with the transplanting see at least technkai approbation of a Transplantation and [11 DECEMBER 1979] Anatomy Bill 2449 sperm bank. I believe that the transplant tissue, both non-regenerative and regenera of spermatozoa or ova should be regulated tive, could be used upon their death, and in the same way as other living tissue. I doctors in the hospitals would know that pose that question because it cis particularJy it was available. pertinent in the light Olf Qperations that have taken place in England in particular. The Minister mentioned that more Govern ment regulation was important to ensure Section 20, which deals with blood trans that the sale of human tissue could not take fusions to chiLdren twilthout consent, 1is place. Of course, one could hardly imagine extremely important. Parents who hold it taking place in ,this country, but I remind I hesitate to use the word "weird"; perhaps the House that recently in Pakistan a poor "aiternative" is a softer word-religious man-probably he was desperately poor viewpoints a~bout blood transfusions and who sold three ribs to a public hospital for $20. in the past have refused !blood transfusions It would be interesting to see what a kidney to their children (in the main, they would would bring in Australia. If three ribs be Seventh Day Adventists) are to be cir were worth $20 in Pakistan, probably a cumvented. This is most important. Lf a kidney would be worth much more. blood t'ransfusion can save a Jife, it should be done, regardless of the weird religious I wished to raise particularly the question ideas of a parent. of the sperm bank and ova transplantation. I am not asking for more Government ·regula In bygone days, before the advent of tion, but I think i,t is very important for medical technology that one now takes for childless people to be able ,to have either granted, it would perhaps have been accep a spermatozoa or an ova transplant as a table for people to say, "I do not believe means of having their own child. I hope in what I consider to be primitive. I do not that the legislation now before the House want my child to undergo a transfusion." will not make that in any way illegal. However, those people will now no longer be ahle to withhold ,a blood transfusion from a child. I am particularly pleased about that. Dr. LOCKWOOD (Toowoomba North) It has irked me to hear people who proclaim (4.29 p.m.): I wish to comment briefly on themselves to be ,Oif a special religious group the provisions in :the Bill, particularly those say that they do not !believe in this, that or relating to the specific exclusion of foetal the other. One often hears of people who tissue, spermatozoa and ova. will not accept blood transfusions, so I am For some time there has been a legit,imate 1pleased to see that provision in the Bill. need in the community to have a sperm bank Although it has not received very much in operation. Sperm banks can operate in publicity, it is a very important one. two distinct ways. They can have A.I.D. I also offer my congratulations to the artificial insemination of donor semen-or Health Department and to 1he Parliamentary A.I.H.-artificial insemination of the hus Counsel for the definition of death, which band's semen. Whatever people's Teligious I think is extremely well written. It contains or moral beliefs are, I do not ~hink they can sufficient safeguards, and I do not believe have any objection to A.I.H., because a that anyone could quibble over i:t. The subfertile husband's sperm can be stored until definition is very narrow, and the irreversible it is of a sufficient count as to render artificial cessation must be checked by two doctors, insemination likely to result in a pregnancy one of whom shall be a neurosurgeon. in a non-sterile wife. It could be provided for by way of an early amendment to the The other point I wish to raise relates to Act. I have written to Cabinet Ministers the actual consent by an adult donor. I about this matter. am aware 'that cards are available that may r realise that artificial insemination of be carried by donors, particularly people donor semen raises vexed questions in the who are willing to be kidney donors. In community and that it would cut across my opinion, it should be made easier for seve~al portfolios. The Minister for Health, people to be donors of living tissue. The the Minister for Wdfare and the Minis·ter Health Department already has printed for Ju~tice wou1d be involved, as would excellent vaccination booklets, of which I others. However, A.I.H. could we11 be con believe all honourable members have been sidered and prov;ided for by way of an early given copies. They are very useful for new amendment. It could pLay a useful role mothers and, of course, very important in the community. for children to keep. Perhaps cards of a I want to address myseLf to the conditions similar type could be printed and handed out of penfonmance of post mortem. I am in doctors' surgeries. I realise that some pleased to see that, as I mentioned at the cha11ity organisations have been printing introduotory stage, the Bill will ratify pro cards for kidney donors, but many people cedures whereby certain tissues are collected still do not know about them-it is as simple at post mortem. The Bill will make a post as that-and perhaps more people would mortem order sufficient authority to collect carry them in their wallets or purses if they those tissues. knew about them. If people carrying such a !I refer pa-rticularly to pituitary glands. card were involved in a car accident, all their Perhaps doctors who have collected pituitary 2450 Transplantation and (11 DECEMBER 1979] Anatomy Bill glands during autopsies and other procedures We are introducing legislation concerning may have been technica1ly in breach of the live donors. As the honourable member law-although not tJhe spirit of the law. The for Woodridge and other members pointed Bill will put their position beyond all doubt. out, there has been some interest in the As I have said, hormones extracted f,rom subject of death. We are now dealing with pituitary glands have been applied to help people who will continue to live after making a &ingular group of people who are lacking a tissue donation. This is a new departure in one of the pituitary honmones. As I in the Australian scene. People will be said at the introductory stage, and I say able to donate a kidney and still be able to it again, out of respeot to the people who live a satisfactory life in a normal way. have received those hormones, I will not Certain other tissue can be donated without name that condition. Nevertheless, it is the donor being in any way prejudiced. good to see this practice ratified. The important thing is to have some Hon. Sir WILLIAM KNOX (Nundah control over the ethics of the situation, to Minisl(e,r ~or Health) (4.32 p.m.), in reply: ensure that the donor is not at risk and that the emotional and other circumstances which if thank honourable members ~or their inter est and contributions to the debate. As to might obtain at the time will not prejudice the matter raised by the honoumble member the judgement involved in making the dona for Woodridge regarding the quality of hos tion. Donations from deceased people have pitals, I dmw his attention to the pro¥isions been accepted for some time and approved of by Jaw, but we are now moving into of the Bill relating to that maHer. I,t is, of course, quite impos&rble to define in detail a new area. all of the qualifu.lations that a hospital SJhould The honourable member for Woodridge 'have. H is important that the Direotor referred to pcwer st·rikes and the provision Genel'al be satisfied that a ho&pital is com of emergency power. I reiterate that hos petent and able to handle these matters. pitals are equipped with emergency power The matters raised by the honourable mem facilities only. Their power supplies are not ber are taken into consideration by the designed for supplying power continuously. Director-General in approving of suc:h pro H a new set of ·circumstances is to obtain cedures at those hoS!.pitals. in the community whereby all hospitals must I1t is extremely difficult to define death. be equipped with continuous power, we will Its definition has been argued fo.r many have to redesign hospitals. The provision years. Again I refer all honourable mem of the necessary tremendous power plants bers to the Law Reform Commission's reip()rt would be very expensive. We would also No. 7, which was produced in 1977. This require emergency plants to back them up. legislation is based su:ootantially on that report, which canvassed some of the matters The assumption has been made in the raised by the honourable member. community that those who provide power have enough professional and ethical The oommission that compiled the report responsibility to the community to ensure that comprised the chairman, Mr. Jus,tice Kinby; power is supplied to essential services, inclu~ the commissioner in charge, Mr. Russell ing life-support services. When power Is Scott; and as commissioners, Mr. Justice withdrawn deliberately, society cannot cope Brennan; Professor Sir Zelman Cowen, as with the situation any more than we were he was at the time; Associate Professor able to continuously provide power in Par G. J. Ha:w.kJins; Mr. Howa.rd Schreiber and liament House while the strike was on. Mr. Murray Wrtcox. ]t also had available It is not within the competence of the the advice from a great list of consuitants hospitals, hospital administration, the doctors who come from manry disciplines and many and the nurses to handle the situation when parts of Australia. Their report, whiah has power is withheld deliberately. They cannot been widely ci1:1CUl.ated and commented upon, be made culpable because of breakdowns has reSJUlted in improvements to legislation and other situations that may occur. in this State and in other paMs of Australia. Mr. D'Arcy interjected. The most interesting feature is that, in spite of the f.act that we have a series of Sir WILLIAM KNOX: Let it be clearly recommendations in the report, each Sl!ate understood that the only people who are has raised its own ~cial problems in the culpable are those who deliberately withhold Legislature. It is proper that that should power. be so. Because of circumstances that have arJsen, the States' legislation has varied in Mr. D'ARCY: I rise to a point of order. some inS'I!ances. The Minister is refleoting directly on me rn Queensland, neither the medical pro and what I said. In this case it was the fession nor certain honou:ralble members are engineers and S.E.Q.E.B. who were at fault. satisfied that children should oo allowed ~he State was never completely without to be donors. The report recommended tha1 power at any t'ime. children should be allowed to be donors. However, in relation to regenerative tissue, Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The honourable because of ethical matters that have yet member is making a statement; there is no to be resolved, we are not recommending it. point of order. Transplantation and [11 DECEMBER 1979] Anatomy Bill 2451 Sir WILLIAM KNOX: The honourable As I said in my opening remarks, at least member and his party stand condemned three medical practitioners will be involved because of their attitude. The other day and, in practice, many more will be involved. the honourable member referred to the A great responsibility will rest on their idiots in the Health Department. The people shoulders when making these decisions. It is to whom he referred in the Health Depart a matter of record that, over the years, this ment-and there are over 20,000 of them responsibility has been exercised in other are public servants, and doctors and nurses areas. I am sure that it will be exercised who work according to their ability and with similar responsibility in the future their professional responsibility. They are because of the added responsibility that this responsible people. legislation will place on 'their shoulders. Mr. D'ARCY: I rise to a point of The honourable member for Townsville has order. warned repeatedly in this Chamber, as well as to me and to other people privately, of Mr. SPEAKER: Order! This time I the need for ethical responsibility on the am expecting a valid point of order. part of those involved. I am quite sure that for as long as this State has dedicated Mr. D'ARCY: The Minister said that I medical practitioners of 'the calibre of the referred to the idiots in the Health Depart honourable member for Townsville, who ment. I referred to the people directly at reflects the views of his colleagues, there the head of the Health Department-the will be no fear about the way in which this chiefs. legislation is administered. Mr. Campbell: Are you saying that they The honourable member for Salisbury are idiots? raised certain matters of concern not only to ourselves but also to the Law Reform Mr. D'ARCY: No. What I said was that Commission, as indicated in its report. They a conglomeration of people at the head of refer to spermatozoa and other human the Health Department do not know what tissue not covered by the legislation. At they are doing. the moment, there is no legislation on this subject in this country. It may well be Mr. SPEAKER: Order! There is no that. there could be. At this stage, this point of order. Parliament does not direct its attention to it. It would be better for that matter to Mr. D'Arcy interjected. be totally discussed in the community before Legislatures give ~their attention to it. Mr. SPEAKER: The Minister will proceed with his speech without interjections from ~ m~ke ~t q!fite clear that no new legis the honourable member for Woodridge. lation 1s bemg mtroduced dealing with ohild re~ ar;d blood. We are repeating what Sir WILLIAM KNOX: The honourable ex1sts m prest;nt legislation, which is being member should consult the record. The repealed by th1s Bill. So there is no depart several unions involved and their members ~re. Although it is mentioned in some detail working in the Health Department have m. this Bill, it is simply a repetition of what noted the honourable member's remarks. I ex1sts in other legislation. want to defend them in this House. They The sale of blood or human tissue is work diligently and sincerely in the interests of some concern. The area of greatest of 1the people of this State. It ill behoves concem is the sale 01f blood. Altlhough a member of the Opposition of the &tatus there may be people in the world who sell of the honourable member for Woodridge, their bones-ribs or whatever it was the who claims to be a shadow Mini~ter-and honourable member mentioned-the fact is should, by some accident, his party come that the sale of blood is very much open to power he would be regarded as the Health to rubuse. Because blood can be regenerated Minister-to speak to these dedicated people people oan sell their blood over a consider who are not involved in the politics of this able period. In the countries where this State in the terms that he used in this practice exists-unfo11tunately it is a prac Chamber the other night. I have reason to Hce in quite a few countPies-it has led believe that, should the honourable member to gross abuse and what I regard as a fonm surv,ive at the next election, he will be of sl:avery or sUibrjugation of some form replaced as shadow Minister for Health. whioh, I believ:e, is contP1llry to human The honourable member for Townsville dignity and human l'ights. So the sale of quite rightly referred to matters of concern blood is controlled in this country. All to him. They are contained in 'the report Staites and the Commonwealth suppoJJt the of the Law Reform Commission. I am very control of uhe sale by Government institu gmteful to the honourable member for his tions under the control of a Minister who interest in these matters. He brings to the is answerable to the elected Parliament. That debate a good deal of personal knowledge practice will continue in this State and else of the circumstances that can arise. The where in Australia. fact is that we are all concerned about the The question of ident1fication and donor ethical and practical problems associated with cards has been raised. Although it is not donations under this legislation. compulsory for suoh cards to be carried, it is 2452 Transplantation and [11 DECEMBER 1979] Anatomy Bill certainly recommended. I am pleased to be to the well~known case of a person con able to report that many thousands of people tracting rabies following a cornea trans in the community oarry cards which indicate plant. We believe it is impossible to write that, in tthe event of some untoward into this legislation all tthe circums,tances ac:cident, they agree that certain parts of and conditions a medical practitioner might their body tissue, o,rgans and so on can discove,r in the course of a transplant opera be made available for transplant. This prac tion. He is ob!:iged to examine the medical tice has resulted in the savirug of many record of the donor to satisfy himself that lives although, regrettably, some lives have the donor's health is such that a transplant been lost. I know personally of many people of his tissue will not be prejudicial to the who carry these cards which hdp so much, health of the person receiving the trans and the practice is growing. I also have plant. I bdieve that that is the way it to report that, as a result of improved road should continue, both ethically and according safety in this State-- to law. Criminal and/or civil proceedings can be taken by people who are in any way Mr. D'Arcy: Improved! Where have you prejudiced. At the same time I do believe been? that the dominance of ethical a:ttitudes towards this matter w,ill ensure that it will be Sir WILLIAM KNOX: It has improved an extremely rare occurrence for a donor considembly. to transmit a disease to a person who is Mr. D'Arcy: Improved considerably! The receiving a tissue tran&plant. death rate is higher uhis year than it has Motion (Sir William Knox) agreed to. been for years. COMMITTEE Sir WILLIAM KNOX: The honourable (Mr. Row, Hinchinbrook, in the chair) member has not read today's "Telegraph" Clauses 1 to 19, both inclusive, as read, or he would see that what I am saying is agreed to. correct. He obvious,ly does not want me to make the point. As a result of improved Clause 20-Blood transfusions to children road safety the number of pCOJPle available without conscnt- as kidney donors after death has reduced Mrs. KYBURZ (Salisbury) (4.52 p.m.): In considerably. The reason for that is that his second reading speech the Minister made pr,ior to a year or so ago, when people were the point that clause 20 was in the previous injured in road accidents and eventually died Act. I would like clarification of the reasons as a result they Lived long enough to be why in the past one has occasionally re~d able to make a decision about tthe donation that parents of the Seventh Day Adventist of their kidneys. But in the present circum religion have refused permission for a blood stances, because people survive they there transfusion to be given to their children. If fore do not want to donate their kidneys, this provision was previously in the Health but those who do not survive are so badly Act, why wasn't it administered either by a ,injured that they are not able to make a hospital administrator or the doctors con decision about whether they will donate cerned? It is a very important point, because their kidneys. As a direct result of improved I believe that every child has the right to road safety there has been a reduction of a necessary blood transfusion, whether or not nearly 50 per cent in kidney donations. That its parents follow a weird or alternative relig is one of the agreeable by- abdomen. At the Ipswich Hospital I had to The honourable member for Woodridge con assist in surgery, blood grouping and giving siders that the legislation is retrospective. a transfusion to a child whose parents had This is not the case. Although the facility refused permission for a blood transfusion. has been under construction for some time, The child had a ruptured spleen and was very this has no relevance to the legislation. The likely to bleed to death without a blood trans Bill enables the Minister for Health to enter fusion. That sort of thing has always been into and enforce contracts for the manage handled quite well. The wishes of the parents ment of facilities for the supply of services. have not been deliberately defied in any par No contract has as vet been entered into, so ticular case that I am aware of. there is no need for the legislation to apply retrospectively. Mr. D'Arcy: It's the same as child-bashing; the child has no rights. The honourable member also made refer ence to my not agreeing to certain awards Dr. LOCKWOOD: That is a completely being applied in relation to kitchen staff. different set of circumstances. The argument Whether or not some form of industrial is completely fallacious, and the member for agreement should be negotiated is a matter Woodridge knows it. In one instance there for the manager in conjunction with approp is a child who has been physically injured riate officers of my department and, of beyond his own capacity to survive and there course, would be subject to the usual pro is a medical team of nurses and doctors with cedures of the Industrial Commission. I legal consent trying to save the child's life. reiterate that no staff will lose their jobs On the other hand, there is a child who has as a result of the convenience food facility. been bashed by parents, a brother, a sister or some other person outside the law. It I deplore the remarks made by the honour falis to the law, medicine, nursing or some able member for Woodridge against the rank other medium to rescue the ·child from death and file members of my department. They or further injury. The honourable member are in fact a very loyal, dedicated and knows that. His interjection was stupid and industrious group of people. The union inane. In the past, this matter has always members who work for the Health Depart been handled delicately and well, with due ment would have more to fear in terms of deference to the law, the parent and the unemployment from the member for Wood child's well-being. ridge in the extremely unlikely event of his ever becoming Minister for Health. To Hon. Sir WILLIAM KNOX (Nundah attempt to denigrate the rank and file Minister for Health) (4.56 p.m.): As the worker should be out of character with the honourable member for Salisbury raised the philosophy that the honourable member question, it was necessarv for me to refer usually espouses. to the Health Act. I find that it was amended The question of hospital patients being in 1959 to include those provisions which deprived of meals because of a transport are repeated in this legislation. The circum strike was considered. Substantial stocks stances referred to by the honourable mem will be held at hospitals and institutions, ber could not have occurred in this State which could be utilised ·in such an event in the last 20 years. She has no doubt seen reports of such instances that have occurred uality. elsewhere in Australia or overseas. The I would like to thank the honourable mem situation was corrected in 1959. I draw the ber for Toowoomba North for his excellent honourable member's attention to section contribution to the debate at the introductory 158H of the Health Act, which was inserted stage. As the honourable member pointed as a resuJt of an Act of this Parliament in out, the scheme is aimed at pro¥iding the late 1959. We are merely repeating in this best possible food for the patients in our Bill what already exists in the Health Act. hospitals and institutions. The honourable Clause 20, as read, agreed to. member for Redcliffe also pointed out that there will be a greater variety of food avail Clauses 21 to 54, both inclusive, as read, able for selection by patients in the hospi,tals agreed to. and institutions. Bill reported, without amendment. Whilst the Government is ever mindful THIRD READING of the need to provide services by the most economical means possible, the establishment Bill, on motion of Sir W1Iliam Knox, by of this facility was not purely based on this. leave, read a third time. The establishment of the facility will, I am confident, improve the quality and variety HEALTH WROVl'SION OF FACILITIES of the food for the patients, and this was one FOR FOOD AND O~HER SBRVICES) of the major considerations before the dici BILL sion was taken to establish the facility. SECOND READING I commend the Bill to the House. Hon. Sir WILLIAM KNOX (Nundah Mr. D'ARCY (Woodridge) (5.1 p.m.): In Minister for Health) (4.59 p.m.): I move- spite of the Minister's interpretation of my "That the Bill be now read a second speech at the introductory stage, I still time." believe that this is one of the most disgusting 2454 Health (Provision of [11 DECEMBER 1979] Facilities for Food, &c.) Bill Bills ever introduced by the Government, I am more concerned about the workers because it goes much deeper than the in the hospitals. The Minister has said Minister would have us believe. that there will be no redundancy and that he Today he has accused me of attacking the will not sack any people in the hospitals. workers; previously he accused me of attack I believe him. However, even if he does ing the bosses in the Health Department. not sack any of the cooks, who are members He twists and turns so much that I suspect of the Miscellaneous Workers' Union, their that a mistake was made and his back-bone jobs in the hospitals will disappear. By Sep was removed while he was in the Southport tember 1980, this facility at Wacol will be Hospital. Perhaps that ,is why he is no longer supplying approximately 150,000 meals each leader of the Liberal Party. week to Queensland hospitals. The Bill really organises a great misuse The honourable member for Wynnum has of public funds. The Department of Health pointed out that the meals for the Moreton has gone ahead and built on Government land Bay Nursing Home presently come from the a huge faciHty, and it now intends to call Princess Alexandra HospitaL That involves tenders from private enterprise for the use the transportation of meals. Recently, 60 of that facility to supply meals to Govern cases of food poisoning were reported at ment instrumentalities. Its action reeks of the Moreton Bay Nursing Home. Did the incompetency, and I reiterate that I, in poisoning occur during transportation? The common with most of the workers in the Bill provides for the transportation of meals Health Department and in the hospitals, from Wacol to the ¥arious hospitals. believe that the Health Department in ,this State is incompetent. There appears to be Mr. Davis: Don't they freeze meals now many heads, none of whom know what the and cook them in the mini-ovens? others are doing. The Minister claims to be an efficient Mr. D'ARcY: Under this proposal, micro Minister. He may have been efficient in wave ovens will be used. Their use has come some of the other portfolios that he has under scrutiny in relation to other legis ~eld: but he is not. held in high respect lation. One wonders whether these jobs will m hts present portfolio, because each section eventually disappear from hospitals. Obvi of the Health Department is fighting with ously the Minister does not understand every other section. As I said in an earlier that workers in hospitals are employed under debate today, the scuttle-butt round the different awards. He should know better department is that officials of the Health than anybody else that each union operates Dep~rtment have even held up the intro under its own award. ductiOn of the legislation relating to child One is left wondering about this ,legis abuse and that, as usual, the Department lation. lf the Government was fair dinkum, of Welfare Services, is ,trying to sort it why would it let private enterprise build out for them. That is why the legislation the facility and do the whole job? I do has taken 12 months to come into force in this State, and in the meantime children not believe that private enterprise should have been disadvantaged. do that. The Health Department, by not being able to administer this facility, is showing The Health Department certainly needs itself to be incompetent. a shake-up, but the present Miniskr is not the one to do it. It is a department that The Bill is really a technical one to allow does . not understand cost-cutting or cost the Minister to let contracts. The Opposition contamment. It has had great difficulty in has no argument against that aspect of 'it. negotiating with the Federal Government over cost-containment in hospitals. In my Mrs. KYBURZ (Salisbury) (5.8 p.m.): I opinion, the Bill is another example of rise to rebut the arrant nonsense mumbled inefficiency in the department. by the Opposition spokesman for Health. Mrs. Kyburz: Why? It is quite obvious that he has not visited the frozen-food facility that already oper Mr. D'ARcY: It is obvious that the ates in Adelaide. It proved to be so expen Department ,is not capable of admin sive under the control of the Health Depart ~ea~th ment in South Aus,tralia that the Government ts~ermg the supply of food to its own hos pttals. of that State was e~tremely concerned. It was made quite clear to officers in the Mrs. Kyburz: This is a cost-containment Health Department in Queensland that as Bill. many contracts as possible should be let out to private enterprise. If the Opposition Mr. D'ARcY: How can it be a cost spokesman for Health js against cost con co~tainment Bill when the department has tainment, as he has proved himself to be, bwlt on Government land a facility worth this State would be in a sorry plight if millions of dollars and not taken ,that cost ever it were controlled by a Labo,r Govern into consideration? When tenders are let ment. The fact is that under private enter costs in hospitals cannot be contained. What prise the various functions can be performed will happen in the years following? The far more cheaply than if performed by the contractors will be able to charge whatever Health Department. It is as simple as they like. that. Health (Provision of [11 DECEMBER 1979] Facilities for Food, &c.) Bill 2455 The frozen-food facility obviously is not the Brisbane and Princess Alexandra Hospitals. basis on which the Opposition argues. That If the kitchens are closed down, where will is the point that I wish to take up. I was the salads be prepared? I should like more extremely hesitant about the frozen-food salads to be provided on hospital menus. facility itself. Because of that, I undertook How will desserts be prepared? I hope they to see how the facility works in Adelaide. will not be frozen, because fresh fruit does I was hestitant about frozen meals being not freeze well. I hope hot tea preparation transported to hospitals and other Health areas will be provided for ambulatory Department facilities because I believed, patients. Some hospitals allow patients to go firstly, that various types of food do not into small kitchens or annexes to prepare freeze weii, secondly, that they are totally fresh pots of tea and coffee for the patients unpalatable when frozen and, thirdly that who cannot look after themselves rather than unless reheated adequately they contain no leave it always to the nursing staff. I hope nutritional value whatsoever. For those that the frozen food facility will not lessen reasons, I visited the Adelaide frozen-food the facilities currently available in hospitals. facility. It is extremely difficult to get a fresh salad, a fresh dessert or a hot cup of tea in hospital. I am not entitrely convinced that hospitals can do without a major kitchen. There will I agree with the provision of frozen food always be a need for a kitchen in a hospital, for hot meals in the current hospital situ nursing home, or any other Health Depart ation because the portion control food ment facility. I realise that the new sections indus,try is growing not only in Queensland at the Royal Brisbane Hospital, particularly, but in Australia and it has been proved to have kitchen annexes attached to all large be far more economical to provide a separate wards. They are available for the preparation dish of portion control meat and vegetables, of desserts, beverages and the reheating of freeze it and reheat it at the work base, food from the frozen-food facility. so to speak. Whether or not it proves The point made by the Opposition spokes satisfaatory to patients we have yet to learn. man is totally untrue because at least two people will be required to reheat the food It has been in operai'ion in some wards at by microwave, make the tea, coffee and cocoa Royal Brisbane Hospital. Earlier this year and prepare desserts. The staff will not be I attended a special luncheon put on by the reduced at all. I am not even sure that administrator. He pmbably did not realise more staff will not be needed. The people that mos,t of the food was reheated frozen who are removed from the kitchen will have food. Obv:iousiy the kitchen Sltaff had to go to the ward preparation areas to heat turned themselves inside out to impress us. up the food. r was unable to pick the frozen food that had been reheated. That probably shows Mr. D'Arcy interjected. that none of us were aware, untH the lunoheon was over, that the food had been Mrs. KYBURZ: Major hospitals have a reheated. butchery section. It has been estimated that Probably the frozen-food facility will oe when hospitals contract to buy meat half the extremely ~m'portant in the provision of fresh meat goes out the back door. I hope that food and portion control food, which is when meat is brought by the frozen-food facility checks are made to see that all the another future indu~try that is, as yet, at meat is cooked there and that half does not the embryonic s,tage. go out through the back door. Dr. SCOTT-YOUNG (Towns"l"ille) (5.17 The reheating of food prepared in the p.m.): The quality of food in hospitals is frozen-food facility is particularly worrying to as essen1tial as the quality of medica:! care. me, and it has proved to be a bone of con '11hey go hand in hand. When I came to tention in Adelaide. On occasions patients QueensLand many years ago, Queensland hos and nursing-home residents have complained pitals had the best food of any hosphals I about food not being reheated sufficiently. had been in. I saw two or three pat,ients Obviously the length of time that the food admitted to Townsville Genem.J Hospital with is in a microwave oven has to be taken into s'curvy. It took physicians some time to account. diagnose this "s1tr.ange" disease. H suddenly I hope that, like in all future hopsitals, cur cleared up, without medical attention, purely rent large hospital wards will have smaller because of the hospital food. That is to kitchens attached to them for the making of the credit of the Queensland hoSfPital system fresh salads. From my experience as a long in the provis>ion of food. term hospital patient, I know that in hospitals salads are as rare as hen's teeth. On Unfortunately, the Government of the day occasions it even seems to be difficult to get decided to ouvtail hospital food a little. The a fresh lettuce leaf. Obviously meals are not quaHty and quantity of food definitely always hot, and therefore do not need reheat deter,iorated. I !!till think tha,t, until 1969, ing in a microwave oven. the quality of Queensland hospital food was e~ce1lent and far supe11ior to that provided More salads should be served in hospitals. in any other hOSJPltal in Australia. It con I visualise difficulties if we close down some tained adequate proteins, c:a11bohydvates, of the major kitchens, particularly at Royal tf,resh vegetables and vitamins. 2456 Health (Provision o; [11 DECEMBER 1979] Faci!ites for Food, &c.) Bill The length of stays in hospitals has been both in this State and in other parts of reduced. In the days I was speaking a:bout, Australia. The medical pwfession, the when there were cases of scur.vy at the police, the Health Department, welfare ser Townsville Genera:! HoS!pital, a patient would vices and several other agencies are rinvolved be in hospital for three or four weeks. in t•rying to reduce the difficulties and make Sometimes it would be a fontnight before he it possible for the legislation to he pro was adequately prepared for his operation or claimed. Nobody is deHberately holding it his complaint was diagnosed. Nowadays, wp, as the honourable memlber suggested. s·tays in hos:pital are shorter because of On the contrary, all the people involved have ancillary medicines and treatments which been trying to reach the stage where the speed u,p the recovery rate. As a result, legislation can be proclaimed. When I arm the same importance is not given to food as advised that all those people, the agencies it was prev,iously. and several de,partments are •in a position to do so, the legislation wi11 be proclaimed. The history of medicine sihows that PeDIPle Queries were raised about the containment used to say that the best doctor in town of costs that w:ill be achieved following was rest and that the second best doctor the setting up of this faJCility. At this stage was good food. Unfortunateiy, because of it is difficult to say just what the savings wi1J the shorter stay in hospitals, we have tended be. The fact of the matter 'is, as the to overlook the very valuable item of food. honourable member for Salisbury has poin ted out, that the difficulties which arose in The idea of using prepared meals is excel South Australia will not lbe repeated in this lent as long as the quality, the content of State. The lessons that have been learned vitamins, proteins and carbohydrates and the from the South Australian experience ied balance of the essential factors in food, are to the introdootion of this legislation. I did kept under scrutiny. If the food is found have the opportunity of visiting s]milar to be not up to standard, the agreement facilities overseas and learning at first hand, should contain a provision under which the from observation and discussion, how these people responsible are penalised for not facilities ought to be condlliCted and what keeping up the standard and quality of the procedures ought to be followed. food. While there is some doulbt about whether The main .point I want to make is that it is essential to have legislation of this t)'pe, all Queensland hospitals have exceHent there is no doubt, on the advice that I have cooks, kitchen staff and ward maids, some received, that it will strengthen the hand of whom have been employed for many, of the Minister in his relations with the many years, and I want to know whether operators of the facility and arlso ensure the !he department 11Vi1! maintain these people validity of the contracts entered into. That m emplo)'lii1ent or whether they will be is the .purpose behind the legislation. There dealt wi·th in the same manner as is the pre wi11 be rcost containment and a reduction prepared food that is not eaten-that is in the cost of meals per patient, if members thrown out. These days it is very difficult want to look at it that way. But what is !o obtain ernrployment or re-emplo)'lii1ent. It more important is the fact that the variety IS all very well to say that jobs are plentiful of meals and the servilce provided wil Mr. D'Arcy: If you are going to get them in hospitals generally. Of course, that helps to run it, why not? with the rehabilitation and restoration to good health of the patients in the hospital system. I think that reflects not only the quality of Sir WILLIAM KNOX: That is an inter the food but also the vigilance of the people esting proposition coming from the A.L.P. who are responsible for its delivery to the It is one I might keep in mind for future bedside. reference. The funds have been provided from loan moneys which otherwise would have Motion (Sir William Knox) agreed to. gone to some other purpose. COMMITTEE Mr. K. J. Hooper: Mr. Minister, I have missed these little cross-chamber chats with (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. W. D. you. Hewitt, Greenslopes, in the chair) Clauses 1 to 5, both inclusive, as read, Sir WILLIAM KNOX: I am sure the hon agreed to. ourable member for Archerfield has, and I Bill reported, without amendment. have missed him, too. If ever he becomes the shadow Minister for Health, I will enjoy having the tete-a-tetes that we have enjoyed THIRD READING on past occasions. Bill, on motion of Sir William Knox, by leave, read a third time. In fact, private enterprise has built this very efficient facility which other commen tators have acclaimed as one of the best in COMPANY TAKE-OVERS BILL the world. I am sure it will work extremely well under the arrangements that are proposed SECOND READING in this legislation. Hon. W. D. LICKISS (Mt. Coot-tha May I make one correction? The honour Minister for Justice and Attorney-General) able member for Woodridge suggested that (5.31 p.m.): I move- the meals for the Moreton Bay area were "That the Bill be now read a second coming from the Princess Alexandra Hos time." pital. In fact, they come from the Royal Brisbane Hospital and I assure him that the Nothing that is being done in the Bill in any patients at Royal Brisbane did not have anv way affects the implementation of the Com poisoning, either. · monweath/State co-operative scheme for the regulation of companies and the securities The honourable member for Salisbury industry. Any remarks suggesting the work referred to the South Australian situation that of the past three years has been placed in has been a serious problem for the Govern jeopardy are ill-informed. At a meeting in ment of that State. There is no doubt that Canberra on 8 December of the ministerial the abuses that took place in that facility council constituted pursuant to the formal led to changes in administration in that State. agreement establishing the co-operative scheme, the action taken by Queensland and The honourable member also referred to 'Western Australia was noted. the quality of the food. It is true that the quality of the food produced from a facilitv The purpose of the Company Take-overs such as this can be of a very high standard. Bill is to set out the substantive law that I firmly believe that placing the management will regulate the acquisition of voting shares of. this .facility in the hands of private enter in companies and other bodies corporate pnse will ensure that the qualitv sought will incorporated in this State that have a share be obt.a!ned. With the necessary safeguards,. capital. Subject to certain matters relating supervision, checks and balances which this to the threshold percentage for shareholding, legislation puts into the system I am sure on which I will comment separately in a the quality will be guaranteed. ' moment, the substantive provisions of this Bill are in accordance with the decisions The honourable member for Townsville also taken by the ministerial council established referred to food quality. Sometimes when we pursuant to a formal agreement executed by talk about health matters in the State we the Commonwealth and all States on 22 overlook the fact that the quality of food December 1978. This agreement provides for provided in hospitals in Queensland is of the establishment of a co-operative scheme a very high standard. I am not in a position for the regulation of companies and the to make a comparison between the food pro securities industry. vided in this State and in other States. Very That agreement, which has been made pub often the people who handle the food are of lic, is based upon the principles of co-opera quite modest circumstances and station in tive federalism and lays the foundation stone the hospital administration but thev ensure for the achievement of uniformity in legisla that quality control is maintained ~nd that tion and administration in the area of a very high standard is adhered to. There is companies and the securities industry through a great deal of professionalism in the hand out Australia. As part of that scheme, a ling of food in our public hospitals-indeed, national companies and securities commission 2458 Company Take-overs Bill [11 DECEMBER 1979] Company Take-overs Bill will be established. This commission will have the shares, or a proportion to enable the responsibility for administering three sub him to exercise voting control, limitations stantive pieces of legislation. Those legisla should be placed on his freedom of action tive provisions will relate to take-overs, the so far as is necessary to ensure:- securities industry and companies. It has "(i) that his identity is known to the been agreed by all members of the ministerial shareholders and directors; council that company take-overs should be dealt with as a matter of priority and for "(ii) that the shareholders and direc this reason considerable efforts have been tors have a reasonable time in which made to finalise the provisions of a take to consider the proposal; overs Bill. "(iii) that the offeror be required to give such information as is necessary to The text of a Bill, as agreed by members enable ,the shareholders to form a judge of the ministerial council, was introduced into ment on the merits of the proposal the Federal House of Representatives by the and, in particular, when the offeror Honourable W. C. Fife, the then Minister for offers shares or interests in a corporation, Business and Consumer Affairs, last month. that the kind of information which The Bill introduced by Mr. Fife will not would ordinarily be provided ~in a pros become law until the commencement of the pectus is furnished to the offeree share co-operative scheme, which I anticipate will holders; and be in the early part of 1980. The Queens land Government believes that steps should be "(iv) ,that so far as is practical each taken to provide for the reguiation of take shareholder should have an equal oppor overs in this State in the interim period, pend tunity ,to participate in the benefits ing the introduction of the co-operative offered." scheme. The Government of Western Aus tralia has introduced legislation identical to As I indicated earlier, the present law has that being introduced now in this Chamber shown that it is deficient in a number of to regulate company take-overs in that State respects. This is particularly so in the in this interim period, save that in that State matter of controlling what has been termed the threshold percentage has been set at 20 the "creeping" and "galloping" take-overs. per cent by amendment to the original Bill. In fact, the present legislation has been cir As I indicated in this House on 6 Decem cumvented by a combination of private ber 1979, the Company Take-overs Bill now acquisitions or by purchasing shares on ,the before the House will be repealed at the stock market, and control of companies has commencement of the co-operative scheme. been obtained without shareholders being adequately informed or equitably 'treated; in There has, as honourable members will be fact, in some cases, offers have not been aware, been extensive consultation with pro extended to the general body of shareholders fessional and commercial interests concern at all. ing this particular measure by this Govern ment and all other Governments that are Some further comments made by the pa:t~es to the formal agreement. For example, Eggleston committee at that time are also Mm1sters met at Maroochydore in May 1978 pertinent in the situation in which we find to settle the framework for a proposed take ourselves today. The committee noted that over code. This framework was announced it cannot be stated as a generalisation that to the public on 14 May 1978. In December take-overs always disadvantage shareholders 1978 a draft Bill was released for public or that all take-overs are not conducive comment. The present Bill before the House to our economic and social progress. There is a result of careful assessment by the is no doubt that the prospect of a take-over ministerial council of all comments that have provides an incentive to management to been received on the exposure draft. improve its performance and to disclose to shareholders the true worth of their holding. The present legislation was prepared fol lowing a recommendation by ,the Company The Government does not wish to inhibit Law Advisory Committee, a commHtee estab in any way take-overs that operate to bring lished in the mid-1960s to report on company about the better utilisation and allocation law generally to the Standing Committee of of resources. However, to enable this to Attorneys-General. This committee was be achieved, it is essential that the market under the chairmanship of Mr. Justice place be properly informed, and one of Eggleston. In its report, the Eggleston the principles of the present Bill is to ensure committee set out certain principles that i,t that proper information is made available ,to regarded as being of importance in the matter the market and that time is provided for of take-over regulation. its analysis. The principles as stated by the committee The principal thrust of the code is con at that time are relevant today, and I tained in Part II (clauses 12 to 17). Clause believe that it is appropriate to repeat them. 12 of the Bill underpins the operation of the The committee commented as follows- threshold requirements of the proposed new "If a natural person or corporation take-over code by prohibiting any acquisition wishes to acquire control of a company of shares (otherwise than as authorised by by making a general offer to acquire all the code) that would result in a person Company Take-overs Bill [11 DECEMBER 1979] Company Take-overs Bill 2459 becoming entitled to more Act. But instead of just that power, a accepted but I hope that neither the Minis considemble number of other powers are ter nor ~nyone else will .consider t~is to be given by the Bi11. The courts can order a precedent for introducmg drac?man m~a persons to selJ the shares that they have sures to str1p people of property nghts wh~ch obtained; they can order people not to they have a reasona,ble expectation will vest sell the shares that they have obtained; and in the ownership of shares. they can order that profits be retained from those who own the shares. Frankly, I :can [Sitting suspended from 6 to 7.15 p.m.] see no reason for ~that, nor have I been able to find anyone who can give specific Mr. BURNS (Lytton) (7.15 p.m.): As mem reasons why such orders should be required. bers would know, I have spent som.e c~m· I have discussed the matter with officers siderable time campaigning for legislation of the Minister's deparbment and with mem to protect the jobs of Queensland work.ers bers of the stock exchange. The sole reason from the raids of southern corporate .bodies. of any substance that I can come up with In some cases I think they could VIrtually is that these powers presently exist in the be called white-collar criminals because they Companies Act. I suggest that that is not have been able to rip off the shareholders reason enough, and that other reasons should the assets that have been developed by be given before this Parliament blindly strips Queenslanders, and they have been ~ble to people of property rights and the right to use the law of the land at the time to benefi,t from what they own. They may carry out their schemes. have obtained ~the ownership by virtue of I still have some concern over the P.T.L. a technical brewch of the proposed Act, take-over, although I know th~t tha! si~ua but they should not be light-heartedly strip tion cannot be covered by this legislat:on. ped of that ownersh1p and the rights that Assurances were given in writing at that time run with it. that jobs would be created, that there woul.d be more work, that nobody would lose his l!f we a:re talking a~bout control, the proper sanction is to remove the .power to exereise job and that the workers' rights would be that control. I put that forward as a simple pro'tected. Those ass1_-1ranc~s were given both proposition. What more do we want to do in Melbourne and m Bnsbane. Letters to with these people? If we want to punish that effect were handed out. Of course, the them, fine them by all means--quite heavy facts are that over 100 people have lost fines, if need be. If ~we want to stop them their jobs. As the rationalisation of the com taking control, we should remove the voting pany's assets is carri~d on, I think Il!ore rights that go with :the shares. But why do people will lose their JObs. Already sectiOns ~we want orders to sell shares, not to sell of that company have been sold to third shares, to retain profits or similar sanctions parties. The assets are being dissipated and against these people? They are draconian the hard work of the Queensland owners, powers. They are extremely wide and should shareholders and workers over the years is not be entered into lightly, and yet here being lost to the State. we find them in this Hill and in the Com In the framing of this Bill some notice panies Act. lf the train runs on, we will should have been taken of the London take also find them in ~the uniform legislation over code, which requires a bidder to dis that is subsequently introduced for aH of close fully its ultimate objectives for the Australia. Merely because someone has company. I think companies. should be been doing something one way for years asked, "If you are bidding fo! th.Is company, does not mean that it should be continued tell us what your ultimate mm IS and what lin that way. Surely we should re-eX'amine you plan as the future of the company." things, and ~in partkular we should I am told that the London take-over code re-examine any power rwhkh impinges upon requires the bidder to state what it wc;t:ld the rights of any person to dispose of his do with the business and what opportunities property in the manner he thinks fit. the employees would have after the change As yet, 'I have heard no good eXiplanation of control. tfor the granting of these broad powers. I I do not think there is anything unfair hope we will receive one. I do not intend or unreasonable in that because, as I say, to oppose the Bill, because I realise it is in the case of P.T.L. some people had an interim measure, but in not opposing it worked there for 30 years-in one instance I hope no-one will think that I therefore 44 years. Some of the employees of that support the granting of these broad powers. company had worked for that company only. I :certainly state to the Parliament that if Until a month ago, they believed that they this legislation comes forward in the new would finish their working lives with that year as uniform legislation to cover the company. There is no doubt that they served whole of Australia I will expect to receive the company loyally and had worked hard. a very detailed explanation of why these Many of the local people are still stunned property rights are being removed from by the knowledge that some of the employ individuals before :I support such a per ees of 60 years of age have been thrown on manent Bill. In this case it is a temporary the labour market in this way. It seems to measure to overcome a limited situation of me that it is important that companies be short-lived duration, and therefore it can be required to disclose their plans. Company Take-overs Bill [11 DECEMBER 1979] Company Take-overs Bill 2463 In relation to the Thiess/CSR take-over, believe it was in the Thiess case, and I read in the Press that the courts will that an attempt is being made to protect determine some of the legal questions the workers, that may be one thing. How involved in about February of next year. ever, some of the directors would have to That is too ponderous and too slow. There be charged with a degree of incompetence should be a committee with authority to and should not be allowed to waste more act within certain guide-lines to make decis money. ions and to arbitrate on questions of this nature. If a settlement of the argument As I am talking about protecting share between those who are bidding to take over holders and people in companies, I shall read the company and the directors of the com from a letter I received from a lady in pany cannot be reached in that way, perhaps Giru, North Queensland. She said- there may have to be recourse to the courts "Firstly I am a shareholder of the of law in the normal way. But there ought Haughton Sugar Co. Ltd., and no doubt to be some procedure so that a matter such you are quite aware of the offer recently as the Thiess/CSR take-over does not simply made to purchase all the minority share lie in the land of limbo over Christmas. I holding. The C.S.R. through subsidaries, do not think that is to the good of the holds 65.7% of Haughton shares and the company and I am not too sure that it is to offer is C.S.R. shares or cash. You might the good of the State, either. The slow recall that around 1971 or 1972 the Aus and ponderous system that we presently tralian Estates acquired a large sHce of have should be altered, or some provision Haughton Shares, through the purchase should be made to speed it up. of shares mainly from the then Directors I am also concerned about the directors at an alleged price of $4 per share. The of some companies. Although we are mov transaction went through privately and ing to protect some of these companies, in not through the Stock Exchange. With some cases it is the incompetence or indiffer the collapse of the Australian Estates ence of directors that allows the situation to empire, C.S.R. acquired the empire. develop. Some companies buy assets for "Now since that time very extensive $150,000 but never do anything to have them improvements and additions have been revalued when everything else is increasing made to the Mill, running into millions in value. It is then fairly obvious to anyone of dollars on their own admission, and who compares the value of the shares of besides they have also acquired a large such a company with its assets that there is adjoining cane farm for near half a million an opportunity to raid that company and dollars. The capital of Haughton Sugar rip off the shareholders. When someone is 2,720,250 shares, and as C.S.R. has does start to make an attack on the com offered $5 per share that puts a value pany, the directors start to squeal and com of approximately $13,000,000 for the Com plain that someone should assist them. pany. There has been no revaluation of assets since about 1965 and Haughton I am reminded of a statement made in Sugar Co. Ltd. will not now declare Victoria when a director who was involved the tangible asset value per share at the in a take-over said that the directors of the present point in time. I feel sure that company that he was attempting to take C.S.R. stands to make a very large profit over appeared to have scant regard for their on the deal and has not made a fair shareholders as they incited irrational fear and reasonable offer to the minority in their employees to bolster their own posi shareholders." tion. Clause 41 of the Bill deals with expenses of directors of a target company and states- All she asked of the Haughton Sugar Com "Notwithstanding anything in the con pany was the asset backing for the shares stituent documents of a company, the she had in the company. As a shareholder directors of the company are entitled to in the company, I believe that she has have refunded to them by the company some rights and should be able to ascertain any expenses reasonably incurred by them that information. in the interest of the members of the company in relation to a take-over scheme Another lady contacted me about P.T.L. involving the acquisition of shares in the She had shares in that company before the company or in relation to a take-over take-over and tried to ascertain the tangible announcement relating to shares in the asset backing per share. However, she was company." told that the directors of P.T.L. had speci fically directed that that information was not Tn other words, these people can be paid to be made available. As she could not to put advertisements in newspapers, as the ascertain the information, she sold the shares. Thiess directors have done, even though At a later stage an annual report revealed the company articles or other rules laid the asset backing. There must be a respon down expressly forbid it. I am concerned sibility on directors to advise shareholders. that some company directors would do this, as has been stated in Victoria, to stir up The Thiess company, in expensive adver irrational fears. If they can show that it is tising to protect the directors' positions, a bona fide announcement, that it is a bona gave the value of its shares and told share fide defence of the company structure, as I holders what was going to happen in the 2464 Company Take-overs Bill [11 DECEMBER 1979] Company Take-overs Bill future. Surely every minority shareholder company. He paid all the workers a week's has that right. Whether a person owns one wages and said that they would all get their share or 100 shares he is a partner in the money. company-or at least that is what we are always told. I know a woman who has worked 13t years for the group of companies that have gone Mr. Ahem: Shares are only worth what in and out of liquidation. She gave away you can get for them. her leave and other privileges to Mr. Olsen on a previous occasion. She has had no holi day pay and she is looking for her wages. Mr. BURNS: Yes, but when someone offers you $5 per share, a shareholder should The funnv thing is that the day after Mr. be able to ask the company, "Is that offer Olsen said that the company had gone into backed by assets of $6, $8 or only $2?" liquidation, the same firm started up business and then to say, "Yes, it is wise to get out." in the same premises, with Mr. Lou Olsen However, what happens if a person telephones again as manager. What is the Government a company he has invested in and the direct doing? Mr. Olsen is being allowed to mani ors in whom he has put his faith say, "No, pulate the laws and change from one com we won't advise you. 'We refuse to give that pany to another. I do not know whether information"? For the sake of the lady who he could do something similar under the owns shares in the Haughton Sugar Com Bill by selling shares. What I am saying pany I would like to know whether she is that Olsen obviously is a crook who is should sell or whether there is adequate misusing the company laws of this State asset backing for her shares. That company to rip off his own workers. will not tell her, even though she is a shareholder. It is a reasonable request. I Mr. Hartwig: He will end up with all do not think it is unfair or unreasonable the money. that a person should ask for such infor mation. The shareholders are the backbone Mr. BURNS: That is right. Whenever he of a company. They are the ones who gets into a bit of trouble, he goes into continue to stick by it. liquidation, and the next day he sets up a new company running in the same premises As the honourable member for Chatsworth and with the same workers. He is asking said the other night and as the honourable them to do without their three weeks' annual member for Rockhampton said tonight, a leave and their other leave. As far as I number of insurance companies and others am concerned, he is the sort of fellow who who buy and sell company shares for a should very quickly end up in trouble. quick profit, are using the money obtained from Queenslanders to pass our assets on to In the last couple of days, honourable someone else. members have seen reports about the Stubbies company, and the closing of the Another clause refers to the actions of the Industries Assistance Commission inquiry liquidator appointed for the voluntarv wind and its report. The report has suggested ing up of a corporation. To me, there is a verv clearlv that the Federal Government worry about the actions of liquidatprs. sho.uld introduce a system that will elimin Today I heard of a company named Olsen ate the jobs of most of the people who are Pty. Ltd., which seems to go in and out working in the Stubbies factories in the of voluntary liquidation on a regular basis. Valley and at South Brisbane and Under The fellow concerned is a Mr. Lou Olsen wood. More than 550 people are involved who went into liquidation in October 1977. He was in the hands of the liquidator for directly, but 90 to 120 girls who work-- three weeks when a new company called Mr. Akers: What did Gough Whitlam do Olsen Furniture Company was formed. The to those sort of people? same fellow was involved. The workers were asked to sign a form waiving their three weeks holiday pay for the year, and they Mr. BURNS: It is the National-Liberal were told that they would retain their Government now. We will see what it is long service leave and privileges of that going to do. nature. Olsen was now the manager. The same airy-fairy experts who spend Then they were told that thev were work their time reading books on economics made ing for a company known as ·Fencan, and similar recommendations at that time. I will the directors of that company were Elizabeth admit that at that time I campaigned against Ann Olsen and Otto Peter Olsen, the son this issue. So did Government members, but and daughter of Mr. Lou Olsen, the man that was years ago since Stubbies was who had gone into voluntary liquidation. On threatened. I have not seen or heard one 6 December this year, Mr. Lou Olsen called word from honourable members opposite the workers into his office, one by one, and said that the directors had again decided to other than a message in the newspaper go into liquidation, and the same liouidators recentlv from Dr. Edwards suggesting that who had been appointed befor·e were it shm;ld be left in his hands and he would appointed again to handle the affairs of the fix it. Company Take-overs Bill [11 DECEMBER 1979] Company Take-overs Bill 2465 I would like to again see the Liberal jobs are on the line; let him tell the support Party running buses round the countryside, ing mother; let him tell the widow; let him tell as it did at that time, to help the workers the deserted wife who is raising kids. Let him at the Stubbies factories. I should like to see tell them that it is only a draft report and whether the Minister for Culture, National does not mean anything yet. If the Govern Parks and Recreation, who hired people and ment does not fight it now, this so-called brought them up from the South Coast in draft report will soon become a report and buses to throw fruit and other things at eventually a decision. Then it is too late. Federal Ministers of the Crown at that time, will do the same thing again. If he is fair Look at what happened at P.T.L. I went dinkum, he will do it. there in June and campaigned through June, July and August. The coalition leaders were It is a Liberal-National Country Party saying that there was nothing to worry about. Government now in office federally and the Dr. Edwards only told the C.B.A. that he recommendation is the result of an inquiry was concerned. The blokes have lost their that it set up. Therefore, it is the Liberal jobs. In June it was only a threat. Today men Party that has to carry the can in this who worked for 30 years for P.T.L. are no instance. longer there. They are coming around to my office looking for jobs. Some of them are Mr. Moore: You are right. We are the 60 years of age. Government. The Government appoints committees and Mr. BURNS: It is a National Liberal it spends years investigating certain industries. Government in this State, and the decisions It is a repetition of the story of the shoe have to be made by the Government. The industry. How many people are making cheap honourable member for Windsor agrees with shoes in Queensland these days? Perhaps a me, and there is a division between Govern few are still making the more expensive shoes. ment members sitting only one seat apart. Mr. Akers: Which Government did that They will have to sort out their differences. to them? In the case of the Stubbies company, it is not just the people who are employed in the Mr. BURNS: Someone tells me that the Stubbies factories who are at risk. I found honourable member has a mate in the gallery out today that they have subcontractors that he is showing off to. He's not doing a Drummond and Kindred Trading in Gympie, very good job, either. with 120 girls; Gay Petites Pty. Ltd. at Southport, with 182 girls-and in other sec In the Federal Parliament, Kevin Cairns tions of the industry over 3,000 people clearly made the point that private enterprise in Brisbane, the Gold Coast, Ipswich, is becoming more and more centralistic every Toowoomba, Gympie, Townsville and Red day. That is what this Bill is all about. More cliffe are involved. If the I.A.C. recom and more, private enterprise is centralising mendation is adopted by the Government, power and control. With the use of computers the final decision on what will happen to and modern technology, it will become even these people in this State will be made in more centralised. the South by Bradmill, because Stubbies is only a subsidiary of Bradmill. Every time I talk in this Chamber about the modern-music industry, I think of the Today, five members of the Opposition, millions of dollars worth of records that are including the honourable members for Rock sold and the fact that not one record is hampton North, Maryborough, Everton and manufactured in Queensland, nor is one store myself, visited Stubbies and talked to the man employed in a record warehouse in this manager. He told us quite clearly that if State. When a retailer orders a record, the the I.A.C. report was adopted, the decision order is sent to Sydney and the record comes of the company would be to transfer to Tai to Queensland from there. I can see a sim wan or South Korea, produce Stubbies shorts ilar situation arising in a lot of other indus and other clothing there, and bring the gar tries. It is happening in the margarine indus ments back for sale here. It is a decision that try and in some of the frozen-food industries. I would prefer to have made in Queensland. With containerisation and faster refrigerated not in the south as a result of a Canberra transportation, more and more jobs will be report. We do not want the I.A.C. report eliminated. adopted, and we will be campaigning against it. The smaller States must stand up and fight for their existence. They should fight not only Mr. Akers: There is no report yet. for the jobs of the fellows who are at work today but also for the futures of the young children who are leaving school. Their future Mr. BURNS: That is the sort of thing that in Queensland lies in the branch-manager the workers down there don't want to hear. area. If they intend getting to the top in the Politicians use their jargon and say, "It is corporate structure and in those companies only a draft report." Let the honourable that used to be controlled in Quet:!nsland, if member tell that to the 550 workers whose they want to be making the decisions that 2466 Company Take-overs Bill [11 DECEMBER 1979] Company Take-overs Bill used to be made in Finney Isles or MeWhirl to look at computerisation and rationalisa ers, they will have to go South. Most of our tion (which is ·the reorganisation of admin top young men who pass through university istration) and amalgamation with companies head off to the South, because that is where with similar interests to effect savings in the jobs are. administration. Many o.f these moves are economically good. However, it hurts when Mr. Wilson: In Collins Street. administrative personnel and decision-makers are taken to other States. I do not include Mr. BURNS: That is right. in that international and multinational com panies, most of whioh operate outside this I welcome this legislation, but I am sorry country. it was not introduced long ago. It should have In Australia, most decision-making is done been introduced to protect the workers such in Sydney and Melbourne, where the main as those at P.T.L. and others who lost their banking and financing ·is undertaken. Most jobs as the result of take-overs by compan company lawyers and solicitors live in the ies that are not interested in developing a South. Decisions are made in Sydney and manufacturing base in this State. All they Melbourne about happenings at Wyndham, are interested in is selling up the assets of Perth, Adelaide, Brisbane and Cairns. Infor companies that, in many instances, were mation brochures about what ~is taking undervalued by directors in this State, and place at those places are not prepared in in doing away with the competition. We are the relevant States but in Sydney or Mel losing the investment, the training-ground for bourne, close to the headquarters of the our young people and the work opportunities company. The whole mechanics of central that existed before those companies were isation in business are very bad. The taken over. Labor Party, which believes in centralising government, fails ·to realise that that is very Mr. SIMPSON (Cooroora) (7.34 p.m.): I bad. When all power rests in one place rise to support this Bill, which will regulate and -it gets into the hands of a few people, take-overs. Because of the move that is being it can be manipulated into a dictatorship situation. In Australia, we are very for made at Federal level, the Government is tunate to have a three-tier system, with local forced to implement this legislation as a government, State Governments and the temporary measure until all States agree to Federal Government. introduce measures based on the Federal leg islation. Reference has been made to the punitive clauses in the Bill. They are the same as Public companies are just public com those that apply now if a company becomes pan~es, although people seem to keep for a substantial shareholder. On acquiring a getting that. The share marke·t is the 10 per cent holding, a company is required market-place for financing and trading in to state its position. In case it does not, public companies. there has to be a punitive clause. Take-overs have sometimes been carried 'It has never been :found necessary to take out secretly. The Bill is designed to spell shares from people or to sell up shares, but those powers are there. This is the big stilok out the procedures so that everyone will that keeps people on the strait and narrow know what is going on, just as in a normal, path. It rupplies only aJ;ter the courts have formal take-over bid, which requires a used the powers; i't is not something arbi prospectus to be issued to each shareholder. trary that happens automatically. It could ibe argued that all we need do is take away In this legislation we are adopting the the voting rpower and we effectively take the level of 12! per cent at which disclosure power from the person who is doing the must be made, whereas the Federal legisla wrong thing. It may be termed an overkill, tion adopts 20 per cent. Most stock lbut it is consistent with what applies to exchanges believe that when a higher level those people who do not declare that they is reached substantial control is exercised are substanti~al shareholders at the 10 per in a company. It is important that the cent [evel. That point needs to be realised legislation should require notice 1o be given and looked at. to shareholders before -that stage is reached. There is a need in Queensland for those companies that pride themselves as having The take-over question is quite complex. built an economiiC and viable industry not Many issues have been raised today about to ,polish the plum so that it looks so bright employment and economic pressures. Many and shiny that people are tempted to take of them relate to othe fact that high labour them over. We .must educate even the costs have forced companies to cut costs. sophisticated company directors and businessmen not to make the plum look too Some companies have even been forced bright and shiny but to demonstrate their to manufacture in overseas countries astuteness by keeping control of Queensland because the strength of the un;ons in Aus companies in ~the hands of Queenslanders. tralia has forced up the value of labour We might even educate a few Ho1mes a disproportionately to this country's product Courts to brilllg something back to Queens ivity. Other companies have been forced land from interstate. Company Take-overs Bill [11 DECEMBER 1979] Company Take-overs Bill 2467 If •We consider that we are reSipOnsible for The only glaring example of the shareholding the guardianship oif resources such as our in any company being incorrect will be the energy resources, we should ensure that S.G.I.O.'s holding in Queensland Cement & they do not fall into the hands of one Lime Co. Ltd., which has increased greatly .particular business concern. The private since 19 August 1978. I was able to obtain entenprise or free-enterprise ethic is com the top 20 shareholders in nine of those top petition. If the competition results in a 10 companies. There is a total of 180 share company being [he only fish remaining in holders in those companies, and 81 of them the rpond, there is no longer any competition. are either banks or insurance companies. It may be that Governments should inter There are only 26 companies involved, which fere only a:t that level. bears out the theory I was propounding the We are not doing that tonight. We are other night that insurance companies have a malcing companies signal their moves so that lot to do with what is happening in Queens the smaH shareholder can know what is land at present as far as take-overs are con going on. We are doing this because the cerned. Commonwealth Government has introduced a Bill that is lying on the table and it Let us have a look at the involvement of shows the direction in which the Common just three of those 26 companies in the top wealth Government will go. The company 10 companies in Queensland. This will further hawks are now looking round Australia illustrate the point I am trying to make. Let for the ripe cherries. This legislation will test us look first at the shareholding position of the proper formulation of future Federal the Australian Mutual Provident Society in legislation to control just the take-over the following companies- aspect of company law. The three a!:lpects Company Position thwt are involved are company law, securities and take-overs. They will come M.I.M. Holdings Ltd. 5 together when the enabling legislation and Thiess Holdings Ltd. 2 how it is to be implemented is decided in Castlemaine Perkins Ltd. this Parliament, not in the Federal ParHa 2 ment. Until the Federal legislation becomes Bundaberg Sugar Co. Ltd. operative through the enabling law, this Queensland Press Limited 2 Bill .will test whether this is the effective way of not hamstringing free enterprise in the Q.U.F. Industries Ltd. 3 markehplace otf public companies but ensur United Packages Ltd. 3 and !0 ing the signalling of the guide-lines so that Queensland Cement & Lime it can operate in a smooth and worthwhile way. I support the legislation. Co. Ltd. 1 Evans Deakin Industries Ltd. 6 Mr. MACKENROTH (Chatsworth) (7.44 p.m.): At the introductory stage I spoke The society is involved in nine of Queens about the Australian Mutual Provident land's top 10 companies. The second company Society, how it was deeply involved in take is the National Mutual Life Association of overs and its involvement in the companies Australasia Ltd. Its shareholding position is concerned in take-overs. Since then, I have as follows- had a look at the most recent list of the Company Position top 10 companies in Queensland and the M.I.M. Holdings Ltd. 4 top 20 shareholders in those companies. Thiess Holdings Ltd. 4 The first company is M.I.M. Holdings Ltd. Castlemaine Perkins Ltd. 9 and the latest listing available was 7 Septem ber 1979. The second company was Thiess Bundaberg Sugar Co. Ltd. 3 Holdings Ltd., and the latest listing was 10 United Packages Ltd. 4 September 1979. The third company was Utah Mining Australia Ltd., which is a subsidiary Queensland Cement & Lime of Utah Development Co. There is no share Co. Ltd. 3 listing for that company because, even though Evans Deakin Industries Ltd. 3 it is the thi:-d largest company in Queens land, it is not registered here but in Sydney, It is involved in seven out of the nine top and therefore its shareholding is not avail Queensland companies. Next comes our own able here. The next seven companies and insurance company, the S.G.I.O., and its their listings are as follows- sharcholdings are as follows- Listing Company Position Company Date M.I.M. Holdings Ltd. 7 Castlemaine Perkins Ltd. 27-9-79 Thiess Holdings Ltd. 8 Bundaberg Sugar Co. Ltd. 13-7-79 Castlemaine Perkins Ltd. Queensland Press Limited 2-11-79 3 Q. U.F. Industries Ltd. 1-10-79 Q.U.F. Industries Ltd. 2 United Packages Ltd. 31- 8 -79 United Packages Ltd. 2 Queensland Cement & Lime Queensland Cement & Lime Co. Ltd. . . 19- 8 -78 Co. Ltd. 2 Evans Deakin Industries Ltd. 21-9 -79 Evans Deakin Industries Ltd. 2 2468 Company Take-overs Bill [11 DECEMBER 1979] Company Take-overs Bill The S.G.I.O. is also involved in seven of these companies. Sir Leslie Thiess is not Queensland's nine top companies. I have one of the top 20 shareholders in Thiess nothing against insurance companies being Holdings Ltd., but one of the things we involved in the share market. I believe they are trying to do is to protect his position. must invest contributors' funds in an endeav I am not concerned with what Sir Leslie our to obtain the highest possible interest Thiess does; what I am concerned about is rate, and if they can do this by investing in what happens to those people who are industry, then of course they must do so. But working for 'I'hiess Holdings Ltd. I am members can see from the figures I have concerned about what has happened to the cited that insurance companies and banks jobs that have already been lost in Queens have a stranglehold on Australian companies land. and, indeed, Queensland companies. They are controlling industry in Queensland at Mr. Wright: Are you suggesting that the present, and they are the ones we should be A.M.P. could be accused of bringing Thiess asking to take a more responsible attitude Holdings down? towards what we are doing with this take over legislation. The take-over of Thiess Hold Mr. MACKENROTH: That was one of the ings precipitated this legislation. A total of points that I put forward the other night. 13 insurance companies or banks are included The Aus,tralian Mutual Provident Society in the top 20 shareholders in Thiess Holdings. said that it was disappointed that it had The other shareholders are the State Super sold its shares in Thiess Holdings Ltd. and annuation Board-- that it did not know the position. However, Mr. Booth: What else would you expect the A.M.P. is one of the larges,t shareholders to find, other than those companies would in CSR Ltd., so it knew what it was doing. have to invest their money-- One of the members of the A.M.P. board is a member of the CSR board, so surely that company knew what it was doing when Mr. MACKENROTH: If the honourable it decided to take over Thiess Holdings Ltd. member had been listening-! realise it is possible that he would not understand it too Queensland Press Ltd. is one of the top well-he would have heard me say that I 10 Queensland companies in the list that I ~1ave _not~ing against insurance companies' mentioned previously. Of the top 20 share mvestmg m these Queensland companies, but holders of Queensland P,ress Ltd., only one that they should adopt a more responsible is listed as a Queensland company. That attitude. is the University of Queensland, which is the eighteenth largest shareholder with . a Mr. Tenni interjected. mere 52,050 shares. Insurance compames have a large shareho1ding in Queensland Press Ltd. Other invesrment companies Mr. MACKENROTH: If the member for throughout the nation and overseas also Barron River listened for a minute, he own shares in Queensland Press Ltd., but would find out. only one shareholder in the top 20 is based in Queensland. That is the University of The point is that those 13 companies, plus the Shell Co. of Aust. Ltd., held over Queensland. 50 per cent of nhe shares in Thiess Holdings The point that I have made on numerous Ltd. If those companies took a responsible occasions during the introductory stage and attitude towards Queensland, Thiess would the second reading of this Bill is that it may not now be threatened by a take-over by not do the right thing in that it will not CSR Ltd. protect the jobs of the Queensland people. I support this Bill in principle, but I s_in All insurance companies are doing is cerely hope that it starts to do someth~ng investing money that comes to them from to protect the jobs of Queenslanders, whtch people who take out policies. The banks is something that is very much needed in are only reinvesting money that has been our society today. invested with them. In effect what is happen ing is that Queenslanders are putting their money into insurance companies and banks Mr. SCASSOLA (Mt. Gravatt) (7.54 p.m.): so that they in turn can invest money in I rise to contribute b:defly to this second Queensland companies. When the insurance reading debate. I say at the outset that I companies and banks feel like it, they sell support generally the objectives of thi~ Bil~. those companies out to southern·based or The principal objective of the legislatiOn rs multinational concerns. That is what is to ensure that those who seek to acquire happening. Those companies are reinvesting shares in companies should do so openly Queensland money and are able to manipul in the market in circumstances in whioh ate the share market in Queensland, resulting those who are the subject of the proposed in the loss of jobs for Queenslanders. acquisition are fully informed, and in circum stances in which each is treated equally. As I said in my speech at the introductory stage, I am concerned about the protection I merely direct a few comments to what of jobs for Queenslanders. I am not con one might refer to as the punitive sections cerned with the jobs of board members of of the legislation. They provide that, if an Company Take-overs Bill [11 DECEMBER 1979] Company Take-overs Bill 2469 acquisition has taken place in contravention purpose of selling up the assets for profit. of the provisions of the statute, the court I am sure that we all agree in general has certain powers. They range from with that sentiment. The legislation cannot restraining a person who has acquired shares prevent this. However, it is designed to in a company from disposing of his interest ensure that adequate information is avail in those shares to the power to order the able in sufficient time for shareholders to restraining of the exercise of voting rights consider offers being made for their shares; and the power to order the disposition of secondly, that there is equal opportunity a shareholding. Other powers are listed in for shareholders to participate in offers; that section. There are certain exceptions. and, thirdly, that dishonesty and inequity Principally, they are that the court may are curbed without restricting or overbur decline orders of that sort where the dening the legitimate, and, indeed, economic acquisition was made through inadvertence ally necessary, business activity that is assoc or ignorance of some fact. Indeed, the iated with the normal thrust and parry court has some general power where it is in the commercial world. of the view that the contravention ought to be excused. I would say to the honourable member that part of the answer lies with the target Mr. K. J. Hooper: What are you saying? company itself. Here I direct my attention You aren't saying anything. to the directors of such a target company, because I believe that the company itself Mr. SCASSOLA: If the member had must ensure that the market is at all times listened, he might well know. fully informed and that the value of the shares reflects the true worth of the com The principal objective of acquiring shares pany. Directors should ensure that asset is the acquisition not only of property but valuations are current and correct-and that, also of the rights that flow from it. With of course, involves rather frequent revalu the acquisition of shares go voting rights. ations of the assets of the company-and that The objects of this Bill are directed towards there is the necessarv communication to voting rights. It seems to me that the pro shareholders so that -they know precisely visions in this Bill would have adequately where their company stands. The honourable covered the situation had the court merely member for Lytton reflected his views in had power to prevent a person exercising relation to that matter when he was address the rights which attached to the shares and ing the House. the power to order a disposition of shares or to refuse to register the transfer of I am pleased that the honourable member shares. for Rockhampton again endorsed the approach being taken by the Government in As the honourable member for Stafford introducing the legislation in advance of said earlier in this debate, these provisions the general take-over legislation mooted involve a substantial interference with the as part of the co-operative scheme for traditional rights of property. I have some Australia. concern about that. It just seems to me that the objects of the Bill would be accom The honourable member for Stafford and plished adequately by giving the court the the honourable member for Mt. Gravatt power to restrain the exercise of rights and supported the introduction of the Bill in the power to order disposition. It seems to general terms. HoweYer, both honourable me to be going in the other direction-to members commented on the provisions and give the court the power to order a restraint expressed some concern in relation to clause of disposition. After all, what we really 45. It was generally felt that provisions of want to do is to get a person out of the way, as it were. this nature were considered to be essential if the Act was not to be circumvented In those few brief comments I express through the connivance of certain interested some concern about those provisions. Per parties. It is important to note that the haps the Minister could further inform the exercise of these powers is vested not in House about that later. the Executive Government but in the judic iary, and in Queensland this would be the Hon. W. D. LICKISS (Mt. Coot-tha Supreme Court. Minister for Justice and Attorney-General) (7.59 p.m.), in reply: An indirect benefit I would draw the attention of the two of the introduction of the proposed take honourable members to clause 45 (3), in over code as legislation is that it has already which the court is empowered to excuse directed the attention of this House to what parties before it if that is warranted in the is a very important matter. I believe that circumstances. I would further draw their this in itself is a valuable exercise. I thank attention to clauses 48 and 49, and in par all honourable members for their contribu ticular to clause 49 (1), which directs the tions. court to be satisfied that, in making an The honourable member for Rockhampton order and in determining the terms of such stated that he did not want to see shares an order, it would not unfairly prejudice being purchased in companies for the sole any person. 2470 Company Take-overs Bill [11 DECEMBER 1979] Company Take-overs Bill The honourable member for !Lytton I also thank the honourable member for referred to certain company take-overs in Cooroora for his support for tthe measure. his own electorate. He indicated that he As he pointed out, the take-over Bill was would like to see additional provisions incor introduced into the Federal Parliament and porated in the legislation. Perhaps the hon left for public comment. Unfortunately, by ourable member might like to make sub so doing, the Commonwealth Government missions to me on that matter, pending served notice on companies that were inter the finalisation of the co-operative legislation ested in making hay while the sun ~hines, that is presently before the Federal Par if I might use that phrase, pending the final liament. The legislation in the Federal introduction of the legislation throughout tthe House, as part of the co-operative scheme, nation. It was for that reason that Queens is being giv·~n a public airing so that com land acted unilaterally in the first instance, ments can be made and reviewed prior to to be followed by Western Australia. the conclusion of the co-operative legislation. Honourable merrl'bers will recall that, in The intention of the acquiring company fairness to all pavties concerned, after the at the time of the take-over was another closure on 26 November of all e~changes matter raised by the honourable member throughout Australia we indicated to vhem for Lytton. I agree that that is important; and to the public at large that as from 27 but, again, I suppose one could say that November the orovisions of the national that could change after the take-over took company take-o~er legislation would apply place. The issue raised is really one of com in Queensland with the exception that the mercial morality. lf the company says the threshold would be reduced from 20 to 12Yz in:tention is such-and-such and then does per cent. I think that in fairness that was something different after the take-over, I the right thing to do. In fact, this Govern suppose its integrity is what is in question. ment has been commended for the way in .which this measure was introduced. The honouraible member for Lytton referred to a particular company, one by I thank the honourable mernber for Chats the name of Olsen, I think it was. WOI1th for some interesting fiacts, all of which are already puiblic knowledge. Mr. Burns: Yes, Olsen. 'I again thank honoumble members for their contdbul!ion and their general accept Mr. LICKISS: J,f the honourable member would like to make a submission to me in ance of the intention of the Governmen~ to that regard, I wiill undertake to have that ,introduce this measure as interim legislation matter investigated for him. pending the enactment and awlication of the co-operative national take•over legisLation. Mr. Burns: Thank you very much. Motion (Mr. Lickiss) agreed to. Mr. LICKISS: The honourable member also dealt with company assets. If companies hide their asset position, they cannot com COMMITTEE plain about a take-over bid. I think we (Mr. Gunn, Somerset, in the chair) all agree with that comment. At an annual general meeting of a company SJhareholders Clauses 1 to 11, both incLusive, as read, can raise the matter of the value of assets. agreed to. Oompany accounts a,re prepared in accord Clause 12~Re:>triction on acquisition of ance with setded aocounting standards. As shares- ihe honourable mernber would be aware, this is a matter that is under consideration Mr. WRIGHT (RookJhampton) (8.9 p.m.): by the accountancy profession itsellf, as well At the second-reading stage, I asked the as by the Governments of ail the States and Minister to ex·plain the reason for the varia the Commonwealth at minis,terial council tion between the 12.5 per cent acquisition level. allowable under the Bill and the 20 per cent allowed by the Federal legislation. No lt will be remembered that when Mel doubt the Minister can explain that. bourne was chosen as the location of the National Oonporation and Security Com This clause refers to the acquisition of miSJSion, it was also agreed tha.t Sydney shares. It has been suggested that, atthough would be the location of the law reform side a limit is being imposed on the number o.f the corporation and security industry and that can be held by a person, either alone of the accountancy unit. There will be a or together with another person, the clause provides a loophole. One person could spe:cia,l unit to look into these mabters, so acquire 10 per cent of tthe voting shares in that correct and uniform accounting will be the company, a second could hold 10 per 'the order of the day. That wi11 also be the cent and a third another 10 per cent. That looation of the ministerial secretariat. I could be done under this legish1tion. Then, thank the honourable mernlber for his con at some convenient time, they could come tribution. together and take over the company. Company Take-overs Bill [11 DECEMBER 1979] Company Take-overs Bill 2471 In the short time available, I have studied inserted at that level. Since the uniform the Bill but I cannot see that it will prevent legislation was drawn up, other schools of such a happening. If people were to be thought have considered that any person caught in such an exercise, they certainly who holds a 20 per cent interest in a com would not face a penalty because subclause pany would be able to pick off directors 12 (4) reads- and exert tremendous control through a "It is a defence to a prosecution for 20 per cent block vote. a contravention of this section if the We felt that we should test the climate, defendant establishes that the contraven and we have certain precedents for it. The tion was due to his inadvertance or mis Al!gas legislation and certain other legisla take or to his not being aware of a tion set the threshold at 12-! per cent. We relevant fact or occurrence." therefore decided, in the interim period, that It is very concerning that we should allow we should test the functioning of the legis anyone to say, "It is my defence that I did lation at 12-! per cent. The other day not know about it," or , "I made a mis I had a meeting of members of the Brisbar.e take." Surely that should not be a defence. Stock Exchange and people involved in all If it is a defence, we will be unable to branches of the commercial world~those enforce this legislation against anyone. We who look after the interests of various sec a'·e saying, "Thou shalt not do this" and, tions that might be affected by this type of "Thou shalt not do something else", but legislation. They are the people who if a person can say that he thought it was a expressed differing opinions over a period. rni"take or he did it inadvertently, we say, The outcome of that meeting was that, "Well, don't worry; we will not prosecute." because of what was happening here and The Minister should give us an explanation elsewhere in Australia, something ought to because this seems to be opening the flood be done to fill the vacuum until the uniform gates to all types of activities that will be legisiation came into being, and that uniform detrimental to Queensland companies. I stock exchange rules were not sufficient ask the Minister to clarify the 12! per cent because the only sanction that could be as against the 20 per cent and tell us whether applied was delisting of the companies. Many there is a loophole that will allow three of the companies involved are unlisted, any people each to acquire a 10 per cent interest \>eay. That would not worry anyone who and then combine to hold a controlling 30 was intent on moving in this direction. per cent interest. Lastly, why are we allow 'Dherefore, it was decided unanimously ing this defence, which is not normal in that 20 per cent was too high and that 15 law? per cent or even 12Yz per cent was more realistic. This legis1ation will on:ly have the Hon. W. D. LICKISS (Mount Coot-tha effect of law until the uniform legislation Mini~ter for Justice and Attorney-General) is enacted and, under the agreement, we (8.12 p.m.): Firstly, on the 20 per cent will accept it. threshold proposed under the co-operative scheme and Queensland's provision of 12~ The other matter raised by the honour per cent, the matter of what level should able member was-- be set has been argued for quite some months. One school of thought stemming Mr. Wright: The poss1ble acquisition of from the stock exchange and certain Victor 10 per cent by three people and their com ian business areas-and to some extent those bining to take over the company indirectly. in New South Wales-is that ,it should be set a:t 30 per cent, not 20 per cent. We know, Mr. LICKISS: I refer the honourable of course, that if a person held 30 per cent of member to clause 12 (2) and (4). the shares, he would be in a controlling position. In the circumstances, if a person Mr. Wright: That seems to relate to their wishes to acquire more than 30 per cent it doing it together as a joint purpose, but is provided that he will have to make a formal it is possible that they could acquire 10 take-over offer. per cent separately over a period and then combine. The 20 per cent threshold has been tossed around-- Mr. LICKJSS: Clause 45 (2) is the per Mr. Mackenroth: Is that note better tinent section dealing with that matter. At than your answer? the moment, it is an open slather. If it can be proved that these people have got Mr. LICKISS: If the honourable member together and are acting in coocert, it is wants to act like a fool, I will treat catered for. On the other hand, the legisla him like one. I am trying to be sensible tion has been drawn up in this form to test about this matter. the commercial climate and the public eXIJ)erience. It was considered that the 20 per cent would be a reasonable compromise, and for Mr. Wright: Clause 45 (2) would overcome the purposes of uniform legislation it was it. 2472 Company Take-overs Bill [11 DECEMBER 1979] Alfred Grant, &c., Bill Mr. UCKISS: I thought the honourable were to 'inter.pret it, one would say that member would find the solution there. it is what one would expect of a reasonable man-- Mr. Wright: There is still the other point with reference to the exemptions or the Mr. Wright: You are dealing with a fight defences in clause 12 (4). 1tha:t could take four pages of "The Courier Mail" da~ly, ~f it cai!Ile to that. Mr. LICKISS: Under clause 12 (4) they are not criminally liable but they are swb Mr. LICKISS: Yes, but one would hope joot to the civil remedies that will limit that we would be dealing with reasonable the I'ight to vote, etc. That has an effect men-- as well. Mr. Davis: Not this Government. Clause 12, as read, agreed to. Clauses 13 to 40, both inclusive, as read, Mr. LICKISS: We are not dealing with agreed to. a Government. The honourable member's knowledge of these things is patently weak. Clause 41-Expenses of directors of target We are deaJing here with what is a ~reason company- 'able claim. We also have to remember that until a .cQmpany is taken over the directors are there to act in ~the interests of the share Mr. WIUGHT (Rockhampton) (8.19 p.m.): holders. This sort Olf provision has worked It is understandable that there ou~ht to be in the past, and there have not ,been any some protection for directors who incur problems. It is a 'Carry-over of the successful expenses in defending a company against a section of the old Companies Act. take-over. They would be required to spend certain moneys in advertising and correspond Clause 41, as read, a;greed 'to. ing with shareholders to conv1nce them not to sell. Clauses 42 to 59, hoth inclusive, and schedule, as read, agreed to. The clause reads- Bill reported, without a;mendment. "Notwiths,tanding anything in the con Mituent documents of a company, the directors of the company are entitled to THIRD READING have refunded to them by the coiilJ)any any expenses reasonably incurred by them Bill, on motion of Mr. Lickiss, hy leave, in nhe interest of the members of the read a thi11d time. company in relation to a take-{)ver scheme involving the acquisition of shares in the company or in relation to a take-{)ver announcement relating to shares in the ALFRED GRANT PTY. LTD. AND company." OTHER COMPANIES (DISTRIBUTION OF TRUST MONEYS) BILL One can understand that once a company is taken over, the new controlling interest might say to the directors, "You were SECOND READING wrong. You will have to carry the financial burden for the advertising and ever)'thing Hon. W. D. LICKISS (Mt. Coot-tha else you did." So there ought to be some Minister for Justice and Attorney•General) pmtection. But this does not seem to (8.23 p.m.): I move- have any real limit other than to say "That the Bill be now read a second "reasonably incurred". In this instance that tilme." ex;pression could be determined to mean ''by way of adverti~ing". W:hat if by way As I outlined in general detail in my intro of correspondence? Again, it does seem ductory speech, this Bill relates specifically to be an open go. After all, it is the 'to the distrihutJion of moneys heM in trust shareholders' money that would be excpended, accounts in Queensland by the Alf,red Grant and there ought to be an eXlplarration as group of companies. to why it would seem necesS'ary to have I do not have to re-emphasise that this this expression included in the Bill. is a mabter which has been of considerable concern ~to the Government for some time. Hon. W. D. LICKISS (Mt. Coot-tha Because Qf the complex legal problems Minister for Justice and Attorney-General) involved, the receivers and liquidators have (8.20 p.m.): This is a fair question. The so far been unable to distribute funds to purpose of 'this clause is qualified by the those people entitled to ~receive money inves word "reasonably". The directors will be ted in 1certain land deals in this State. entitled to be, and could expect to be, recom Several opinions from senior legal counsel pensed for reasonable expenses they incur have failed to prov;ide any practical or work in relation to a bid, including an on-market able solution to the problems of returning bid. This clause was based on section 180P money to those people who rightfully deserve of the Companies Act. I suppose if one to claim what is theirs. Alfred Grant Pty. Ltd. [11 DECEMBER 1979] and Other Companies, &c., Bill 2473 Although the land in question is situated really talking about $7,000,000. One sta~ts in Queensland, the vast majority of the to wonder what happened to the rest of it. contracts were negotiated in jurisdictions One starts to wonder what can this Gov outside of this State. Indeed, one of the ernment do to retrieve those missing companies involved (Capricornia Finance and millions. Marketing Corporation Ltd.) was head quartered in the Channel Islands, whilst In the past a tremendous amount of Australian Land Sales Limited is registered publicity was given to a building society that in London. Investigations so far reveal that lost some millions of dollars because of before receivership, moneys received in the computers. Here we have straight-out fraud, Channel Islands from intending purchasers straight-out crookery, where an upper-crust were not paid into a trust account. Some of crook, a man who held status in the com those moneys, however, were subsequently munity, because of legal assistance and transferred to Australia and paid into trust sales promotions that he used in Australia accounts until the land had been registered. and in the British Isles, was able to rip off millions of dollars from unsuspecting In effect, what we are attempting to people. I would hope th '!"he member for Lytton will develop this stolen goods-$2,000 million. It has been pomt further. He has some statiSJtical estimated that the cost to Queensland infor,;na~ion that further develops this point in 1980 of crime enforcement and and md1cates clearly the ques,tions that need insurance will be in the vicinity of to be asked as to what happened to the $350,000,000. That is a pittance compared rest of the money. Like previous speakers to the cost of white-collar crime. When we ~o t~is Bill, I ask for a full and purposeful talk about that, we are talking about billions mqmry, and that we use the provisions of of dollars. That is because of the likes of this legislation to get Alfred Grant. I do Alfred Grant. Until we come to grips with not want to be vindictive; I do not want to the white-collar criminals-those who are say that I am playing personalities; but in able to use their privileged status in the our system we ought not to have it that community to take advantage of others one man, or a group of men or a family justice will not be done. I would ask the can rip off millions of dollars from unsuspect: Minister to make an example of Alfred ing people. Grant. I ask him to use the powers he has to investigate that man's financial posi The legislation before us will achieve its tion today and take back the money that purpose in that it will allow the liquidators, he robbed from those 700 people. safe from any prosecution or penalty, to gather the money and distribute it. I am quite pleased with the scheme that is being Mr. BURNS (Lytton) (8.34 p.m.): As the proposed. It seems to cover every aspect House would know, I have spent some time in that there v; ill be advertisements through corresponding with people in England and out the Commonwealth-and in this State in elsewhere in relation to the Alfred Grant particular-----"So that claimants may make a fraud. I am concerned at the amount of claim. They will be required to substantiate money that the Minister spoke of tonight. their claim. They will be required to give First, let me make the point that I do not proof-receipts and so on. Once that has know how people who bought blocks of been supplied, it shall be determined whether land were able to deal with the liquidators or not a claim is valid. Then moneys will because, if they bought from Australian be distributed. Land Sales at Half Moon Street in London and had to deal through Capricornia Finance I am pleased with another aspect of the and Marketing in the Jersey Islands with B,ill, and this concerns a point I raised Alfred Grant's company over here, which during its introduction. We should not was Tweed Valley Pastoral Co. Pty. Ltd., allow the receivers and liquidators to get they finally got a letter saying that receivers the first bite of the cherry, as has happened had been appointed for the Alfred Grant in too many instances when firms have gone group of companies. There are 26 com into liquidation. I recall one instance where panies. People who purchased land were the assets were valued at about $9,000, but told that they "may be able to obtain assist the liquidators received in excess of $8,000. ance from the Receiver of ALfred Grant I am pleased that the Minister has incorpor Pastoral ProiPerties Pty. Ltd. (Receiver ated in this legislation a proviso that, whilst Appointed) (In Liquidation), care of Messrs the liquidators' costs have to be paid-we K. M. Shaw & Co., Chartered Accountants, do not eJGpect them to work for nothing; 12th Floor, T & G Building, cnr. Queen & every man deserves payment for his services Albert Streets, Brisbane, 4000, Aus,tralia, -such costs must be certified by the Com or from Capricornia Finance & Marketing missioner for Corporate Affairs as being Corporation Limited." Later one finds that reasonable. I commend him for it. We not only one liquidator was appointed. Mr. can play party politics day in and day out, Shaw said- but I think that that is a good provision, "In answer to your question, I advise and I hope it will be used. that I am the Receiver and Manager of Alfred Grant Pastoral Properties Pty. Ltd. 1In aLl, I believe that this legislation is (Receiver and Manager Appointed) (in wMthy of OpposWon support. It covers the non-valid claim. It covers instances where Liquidation). money could be found after distributions "Messrs. Coopers & Lybrand are Agents have been made. Subsequent money can for the Receivers of Alfred Grant Holdings still be distributed. It covers other aspects Limited and its subsidiary companies, where claims have to be substantiated com including Tweed Valley Pastoral Co. Pty. pletely. It seems that full and due considera Ltd. (Receiver Appointed)." tion has been given to the measure before us. It has the Opposition's support. That elderly lady from Stowe in England and others who were intending to migrate However, I reiterate that something has here and who were induced to purchase by to be done to clean u,p white-collar crime in this State. I read an article the other the publicity using the name of the former day from one of the institutes in Canberra Premier (Sir Francis Nicklin), Dave Lowe that crime in Australia costs $2,000 million and others who were associated with the a year. I am talking about the cost of law letters distributed by Alfred Grant, were enforcement by police and insurance costs for being told that they could pick either one of business and about the replacement value of these two sets of receivers and make a claim Alfred Grant Pty. Ltd. [11 DECEMBER 1979] and Other Companies, &c., Bill 2475 on the funds. It seems to me that if a whole were not subject to the trust laws of Queens group of companies is being liquidated, we land. As I have said before, this was Queens should ensure that there is only one liquidator land land, a Queensland agent (Alfred for all the companies, especially when people Grant), a Queensland family (his wife and his daughters), setting up this selling scheme, from across the world are being asked to send and I believe that the same laws should apply details backwards and forwards. as apply to any other real estate agent. If There is another company that has not he sells a block of land and cannot transfer been mentioned very much in this matter. the title he should not use any of the money, Just let me recap for the benefit of the House. and all 'the money should go into trust and It was in the late 1960s and early 1970s that be held in trust until such time as he can the Alfred Grant group of companies provide a title. embarked on the programme of selling land In this instance, most of the people con in Queensland to residents of the United King cerned have not received a title deed, and dom and Europe. To carry out the process of in some instances a rather strange situation selling land over there, they set up Capri has developed over the title deed. In faet, cornia Finance and Marketing Corporation the Minister himself wrote to one of my cor Limited in Jersey, in the Channel Islands. respondents in relation to a block of land As I have said before in this Chamber, that he bought and said- Alfred Grant's wife and daughters were "Investigations to date reveal that the involved in that company. It was obvious that moneys received in England were not paid he set it up as a lurk in that tax-free haven. into a Trust Account but that some of He paid his family company 45 per cent those moneys were subsequently transferred commission on sales and another 5 per cent to Australia and paid into Trust Accounts. when it collected the funds, so it received 50 "The section of the Ocean View subdi per cent. For example, on the block of land vision that Mr. and Mrs. 'X' contracted purchased by one lady for $7,888.60, Capri for had not been registered at the time cornia's commission was $3,937.50 and its of failure of the Alfred Grant Companies. collection fee was $434.29. It did not do too badly. "A portion of that land is subject to a ,first mortgage to Partnership Pacific Mr. Mackenroth: Don't tell the R.E.I.Q. Limited ·which company :is in the process that. of realising upon it. "The attached photo-copy of Lot 25, which they contracted for, appears to be Mr. BURNS: With due modesty, I say that partly upon Resubdivision 3 and 4, Section I sold a little land as a real estate salesman 16 and 17, Portion 130 and Resubdivision when I first left the Air Force. At that time, 516 Portion 130 whkh land is ri:n the the commission on land was about 5 per cent pro~s of sale by Partnership Pacific on the first $500 and 2! per cent on the bal Limited. The remainder (rbeing the rear ance, or something of that nature. It was section) is still in the hands of the never 50 per cent. That would not have been receivers of the vendor company, Tweed a bad lurk. I do not think there would be a Valley Pastoral Company Pty. Ltd., but real estate agent in this city who would as there is no road aocess, title does not not be prepared to accept a 50 per cent com appear to be able •to be given to that mission, but I do not think very many vendors portion in this form." would be happy about it. Some of rthe blocks of land that A~fred The Capricornia Finance and Marketing Grant was selling to people were mortgaged Corporation Limited, on behalf of the Alfred ha~ to one group and half under another Grant group, made sales, most of which were ocheme and arrangement. Even when the on vendor terms, that ran for a total of five receiver started to look at this money, in to 10 years. It took over the management, as the case of Partnership Pacific the company agents for the vendor, of another company went ahead and said, "You owe us the money. We are selling up the land." It in the Bahamas called Development Finance realised upon the land and upon half the & Marketing Corporation Ltd., and that is block of land that this lady had bought. I the other company I wish to speak about. am not too sure whether the other half So Alfred Grant, who was going public, was is big enough for use tfor any pu!"pose, hurt using letters from a former Premier of this it is now part of the ocheme of arrangement State and from prominent members of the that th!is BiH is trying to settle. National Party to promote his schemes, and When the reconciliation between the was setting up companies in the Bahamas .records held in Australia and those olf and the Jersey Islands to promote land sales. Caprioornia was completed, the liquidators were able to detenmine what funds were When we begin trying to make some recon held by Capl"ilcom~a on behalf of Tweed ciliation, we are told that not all moneys Valley in re~ect of registered land and those collected by Capricornia were paid to the rfunds hdd in respect of unregistered land. credit of a trust account by that company, The liquidators were also a,ble to detenmine and that the moneys held by the company rwhat funds had lbeen received by Capricornia 2476 Alfred Grant Pty. Ltd. [11 DECEMBER 1979] and Other Companies, &c., Bill since the commencement of the receivership of Companies, have been unable to recon in respect of registered and unregistered cile the Queensland records kept by the land. companies with those maintained in the United Kingdom by the selling agent. It is I am told that the moneys received and for this reason that the receivers, acting accounted for by Capricornia total upon legal advice, have not been in a $2,133,258.94, which had been received on position to disperse monies from the Trust account of the vendor. This is after the deduction of commission and collection fees, A1ocount." and I shall now detail how it has been I am reminded that on 14 July Mr., Alfred distributed or accounted for. Grant, in reply to an article in "The A sum of $1,059,940.71 was the total Courier-Mail" of 7 July, said quite clearly- aocounted for by Oaprkornia. It was sent "All of those moneys were recorded in back ,to Australia. Of that, the sum of the books and records of the companies $94,586.91 was lost on e~change. Local and furthermore a painstakingly prepared receipts transferred to Alfred Grant Pastoral reconciliation accounting for all of such Property Trust totalled $161,515.42. The moneys and all moneys paid by purchasers amount received and held in trust by T'>veed has been in the hands of the Receivers and Valley was $292,682.71. The vendor received the Commissioner for Corporate Affairs direct the sum of $180,427.28. The total of for months." those sums is far in excess of the $500,000 that the Minister has mentioned. On 22 August 1979, a month or five weeks after Mr. Grant made his statement in Again I say there should be $965,353, the Press, the Attorney-General wrote to which is the net amount sent over from me to point out that the department was England. On top of that, there should be unable to reconcile ,the Queensland records approximately $161,000, the total of local kept by the company. receipts transferred ,to Alfred Grant Pastoral Propert~es; there should be another $292,600 It is important that a Fraud Squad inquiry held in trust by ~weed Valley; there should be held into the matter. As I have said, I be another $180,000, which was received have received letter after letter from England by the vendor direct. On a quick ca1cu1a in relation to this matter. A Labor politician tion the total. of those figures is over by the name of Price, the member for $1,500,000. Lewisham West, was helping me on this As I understand it, Capricornia Finance matter. Originally he received a letter and Marketing held $595,484 and Develop from one of his constituents. I wrote to ment Finance and Marketing, the Bahamas both Mr. Price and his constituent. As a group, held on aocount the sum of $30,018. result, my letter was forwarded to a number Thll!t is a total of $627,502. Mention is made of other people who all wrote to me telling of offsets and costs. me the same storey, namely, that they had bought the land on the basis that they were I have no objection to this Bill. The migrating here. Many of them are now Minister will recall that 'in quest,ions and here. People whom I wrote to in England in Matters of Public Interest debates I have are now writing to me from Coffs Harbour, been asking for it all this year. As I say, the Gold Coast and the North Coast. Some I have no objecNon to the Bill, but I think of them will get a tremendous surprise when we are entitled to a detailed explanation of they see Bundilla Lakes and remember the the money side. flowing terms that De Vere and some of I do not ex,pect the Minister to ,be able the other people who are now deceased used to give me that explanation tonight. How in describing Grant and his activities. It ever, rin a ministerial statement he should is important for the State and the people tell us how many ,people bought the Jand, concerned that we get complete details. how many people have had their money kept by Capricornia, how much ·was for The receiver made it very clear that warded back, how much was paid in interest Capricornia Finance and Marketing Corpora and how much was paid in any other way. tion Limited, which still seems to exist and We ought to be told where the money went. operate, has been less than honest in dealing with some of the people over there. Capri We do know that the Alfred Grant group cornia was advising people that it was of companies made a scheme of arrange unable to give them information about ment and that some guamntees were given over the money that was to come back. I refunds of money until it was given authority want some further details concerning it. by the receivers, but five or six m~nths earlier the receivers wrote a letter in these I could read half a dozen letters in terms- relation to this matter. I do not think I "We shall be pleased if you will answer need bore honourable members with all of any inquiries put to you by overseas pur them, but I will quote from a letter as chasers in response to those letters." follows- "! am further informed that the liqui That was written five months before dators and receivers of the various com the Capricornia people were saying that pan~es involved in the ALfred Grant Group they were not allowed to give any Alfred Grant Pty. Ltd. [11 DECEMBER 1979] and Other Companies, &c., Bili 2477 advice because they had to get per Provision has been made to give the misswn. We are told that Capricornia receivers and liquidators power to issue a Finance and Marketing is an Alfred Grant direction for the remitting to them of trust company, one of the companies that should moneys they believe some person outside have been under the control of the umbrella the State mav have in his possession or back here in which the Alfred Grant familv control. Howe~·er, in fairness to the House, w:~s involved. · I emphasise that we cannot legislate to enfor cc these directions overseas. This is one Without taking the matter further, I of our problems. \velcome the Bill in the hope that we can clear things up for the people concerned. I A question has been raised as to whether can forward the Minister's advisers copies anv offence has been committed. Investiga of the correspondence I have received. I tio-ns so far reveal that Alfred Grant has have already given the Fraud Squad quite not committed any criminal offence in a considerable amount of it. I believe it Queensland and, as the vast majority of should be in the hands of the Fraud Squad the contracts were negotiated outside State to carry out an investigation. But it should jurisdiction, we have no control over them. go deeper than that. We in Parliament should get a final report. It is in our interest to get I think it was the honourable member a final, detailed report on what happened for Lytton who mentioned some confusion so that in future we can ensure that similar about the appointment of receivers. Mr. instances do not occur. K. M. Shaw was originally appointed as receiver for Alfred Grant Pastoral Pro perties Pty. Ltd. Subsequently, the mortgage Hon. W. D. LICKISS (Mt. Coot-tha under which that firm was appointed was Minister for Justice and Attorney-General) paid out. Messrs. Tucker and Peldon of (8.49 p.m.), in reply: I thank honourable Hungerfords were appointed as liquidators members for their acceptance of the legis of the company when it was placed in lation. I understand their concern about liquidation. certain matters outside the scope of the Bill relating to the Alfred Grant group of As I have pointed out, one of the problems companies. that has confronted the liquidators and the receivers is the great difficulty in matching The honourable member for Rockhampton the information concerning the amounts was concerned about the arrangements, as it of monev transmitted to Australia with the were, that were made. He also expressed records accompanying the money or refer concern about our not being able to proceed ring to that money. The honourable member in relation to what happened about sales mentioned an amount of money that should and the distribution of the monev from the have come into the trust accounts. I have one sales. I stressed in mv ministeria-l statement figure which would be subject to correction, if that Capricornia Finance and Marketing necessary. It is probably pretty close to the Corporation was registered in the Channe-l mark. The money received into Tweed Islands, which are outside our jurisdiction, Vallev Trust Account amounted to and that Australian Land Sales, which was $882,424.73. Part of that money was paid registered in London, was also outside our out immediately the land was registered. jurisdiction. We can cope only with those The amount remaining in the trust account matters that come within our jurisdiction. is $311,000. Therefore, a greater amount was We can only legislate accordingly. received fro;n overseas than is presently held in trust. The majori~y of the sales took place outside Queensland jurisdiction. These moneys were If the honourable gentlemen would like not immediatdy paid into any sort of trust to learn more about some of these figures, account. I stressed that in my ministerial I would be quite happy to have them discuss statement. The moneys forwarded to Queens them with some of my officers who have land were paid into trust accounts less, gone into them in detail. I think in all instances, the 45 per cent commission and the 5 per cent handling Mr. Wright; Is that an open invitation? charge. The latest figure I have of the moneys held in trust in Queensland is $580,332.45. It is thought that Capricornia Mr. LICKISS: Yes, on matters that have Finance and Marketing Corporation Limited been referred to tonight so that we can should be holding $438,000. The known demonstrate where the figures can be recon claims to date total $2,955,000. ciled. There may be certain confidential matters that cannot be revealed, but in the broad spectrum I think these figures can be Mr. Wright: Are you able to estimate related, correlated and proven. the total value of sales at the time? It was said to be $7,000,000. Mr. Wright: What sort of time limit are you anticipating on claims? Have you Mr. LIC'".(ISS: These are the known claims any projection? at the moment. Quite a deal of what is happening oversea!< is uncoctain and it would Mr. LICKISS: I think I mentioned it in be difficult for us to confirm the situation. my introductory speech. A reasonable time 2478 Alfred Grant Pty. Ltd. [11 DECEMBER 1979] and Other Companies, &c., Bill will be allowed. It will be not less than six State, has any moneys in his possession, they months, and during that period an advertise shall take action to cause the money to be ment will be lodged in overseas newspapers. paid to them. In his reply the Minister made Under the proposed Act, the liquidators and the point that this Government has no juris receivers will determine the claims on the best diction outside the State of Queensland. information available. There are reciprocal arrangements within Many of the matters raised in the debate the Commonwealth, and I would like to were outside the scope of the legislation, know whether the liquidators or receivers and I think I have covered most of the points will have any control over the moneys that raised in relation to it. could be held in the United Kingdom. I Motion (Mr. Lickiss) agreed to. see this as a real problem, because some $5,000,000 is missing, according to the esti mates I have made. Much of that money could have been siphoned off by Alfred Grant COMMITTEE through his 45 per cent fee or through the (Mr. Gunn, Somerset, in the chair) additional 5 per cent charged by his com pany in the Channel Islands. What power Clauses 1 to 4, both inclusive, as read, will the Minister have under this clause? agreed to. Secondly, the clause refers to moneys under Clause 5-No action or judgment, etc., his control, and so on. Would that include where scheme complied with- an investigation into assets now owned, hav ing been purchased by moneys originally held Mr. WRIGHT (Rockhampton) (8.56 p.m.): or derived from-- There are a couple of points I wish to raise in clause 5 as it relates to the scheme. The The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. first point is by way of clarification only. Gunn): Order! Could the honourable mem Because of the lapse of time, it seems to me ber inform the Committee to which clause that it may be extremely difficult for people he is speaking? to meet the requirements of the scheme as regards the supplying of the information that the Minister has said will be required to prove Mr. WRIGHT: Clause 5 (11). that they have a claim. What sort of dis cretionary pcwer is in the hands of the liqui The TEMPORARY CHAffiMAN: The dators here? How forceful will they be? honourable member is now speaking to clause How insistent will they be that the claim 11 of the schedule. must be proved beyond all question? What type of evidence will they accept? Mr. WRIGHT: I am sorry. We will have The clause then refers to people having to to wait until the schedule is discussed. supply receipts. From some of the information I have been given and from my discussions Mr. Lickiss: We will deal with it when we with the honourable member for Lytton, it come to the schedule. is clear that we are dealing with people who might well have given up a long time ago Mr. WRIGHT: I just did not want to go any chance of ever getting their money back. through it again. It must be kept in mind that people started investing in this scheme back in 1%8. They Clause 5, as read, agreed to. paid their moneys for five years expecting to receive title, although this was never forth Schedule- coming. Mr. BURNS (Lytton) (9.1 p.m.): I am The problem was compcunded in 1976 concerned a:t how the liquidators will dete~ when Alfred Grant went into liquidation. mine the rights of claimants under this The Minister might care to make some com particular scheme. I ~ay that beca~se I ment on that point. I realise that what he received from an English lady details of says is not binding in law, but it may be some police investigations into her partic some type of direction to the liquidators and ular matter, and a repcrt given by the pclice. receivers as to how they ought to handle the That repcrt stated- problem. These people have suffered greatly -some have lost their entire savings--and "Investigations by the Accountants I would not like to think that, just because representing the Receivers of Tweed Valley of some slight doubt about their eligibility, Pastoral Company discloses that in fact the they would miss out on some compensation. sum of £250,000 ($375,000) was received They will probably not get much, anyway. into the company's Trust Account about 2nd August 1974 but there is no record My next pcint relates to clause 5 (11), of any ad~ice being received regarding which states that if the receivers and liquid the disbursement of this sum. The money ators have reasonable cause to believe that was in fact credited mainly to the accounts any person, whether within or outside the of numerous persons who had completed Alfred Grant Pty. Ltd. [11 DECEMBER 1979] and Other Companies, &c., Bill 2479 payment for land which had been reg Mr. WRIGHT (Rockhampton) (9.3 p.m.): istered and the balance to persons who By mistake I spoke previously on this matter. had completed payment for unregistered I looked at page 3 of the Bill and saw land." clause 5 but did not read further on; how ever, the Minister was aware of what I was None was credited to the account of this talking about. particular lady. Of the sum of £Stg250,000, which is equivalent to $(Aust)375,000, some The points made by the member for was credited to those who already had title Lytton link up with the point that I was to their land, and the balance was credited making about what sort of evidence will to those who had land to which they had not be required. If the correspondence, the received title. The police report continued- receipts and documentation that is requested here is not available, then what is going to "An employee of the group reports that happen? Are the interests of those people a list was received some nine (9) to going to be protected? What appeal does twelve (12) months after the receipt of a person have against the decision of the the cheque outlining the disbursment of liquidator? It is only right that the Bill the $375,000.00 and that this list did not should remove the possibility of any liability correspond with the actual disbursement. from the liquidator. He has •to make a final There is now no record of this list." determination as to what happens to that money. By doing that the Bill could also The report also stated that a reconciliation of create a situation where some people could this amount had been effected by an account be hurt, so the provision does require clar ant, but Capricornia and the various receivers ification. had not agreed to the reconciliation. I want to know the position of a person who However, it is clause 11 of the schedule says that he paid for a block of land that I want the Minister to consider very but he has not received any title to it or carefully. lt talks about powers of the has not a lot of proof that he has paid liquidators and receivers •to act outside the money. He may be able to give the number State. It clearly says "whether within or of the block and may have some of the outside the State". Does that mean the contril:ctual. documents. I have six or eight United Kingdom? Will it give them access cases m wh1ch some of the people have given to moneys >that ma:y have been paid to com every detail of exactly how many payments panies, agencies or any person acting on they made and how much they owed. Many of behalf of ALfred Grant in the United King the others have written to Capricornia, but dom? W:111 it ena:ble the liquidators to get that company has replied that it cannot give any advice, that the investors are in the at the assets? I note that the provision It ha~ds of the receiyer and that ·they should specifically says "moneys". says "has in wr:te to the rece1ver. The receiver has his possession or under his control any wntten back and said that he has no moneys on behalf of, as agent for". knowledge of what the people have credited It will be a very easy way out if Mr. Alfred to their names. I would like to know how that is going to be worked out. It will be a Grant can say, "I don't have the ready difficult problem. 'Cash. I have land. I have houses. I have all so11ts olf assets that are worth hundreds I know that provision has been made that of thousands of dollars and, yes, I did claims cannot be made against the liquidator. use that money from the original estate In some cases on his own judgment he the Channel estate~to lbuy all those things, may have decided against a person's claim. but you can'-t touch me because your law In other words, as I see it, we are making says 'moneys'." I suppose one could go to the liquidator the judge and jury. We have the Acts Interpretation Act to see what >is also wiped out the right of any appeal against meant by "moneys". The other night a his decision. Some people have spent member tried to determine what was meant $11,000 or $12,000, and they are waiting for by "financial resources". their share of the money. As I see it, the I would hate to think that 1ve will give most they can expect back is half the money ALfred Grant an out. This is the first real they put in. They will be most upset if opportun~ty we have of getting him. It the liquidator tells them they are not entitled gives the liquidators and receivers cel"tain to any money. If the liquidator says that powers to investigate the moneys held, ,and, case A is entitled to it but case B is not, if they are able, to take control of •those that will cause many difficulties. moneys and distrilbute them to those ,people who ol'iginally paid funds to the cornpany. I would like the Minister ·to explain what sort of right of appeal those people have, I would appreciate some comment on those and what sort of right they have if they can areas. The main one relates to what sort of not have recourse to the law. I want to evideiJJCe is requi•red. I would ask the know wha:t sort of right they have to say Minister to cla11ilfy the full power of the to the liquidator that they think he is wrong liquidators and receivers in clause 11 of and that he should reconsider his decision. the schedule. 2480 Alfred Grant Pty. Ltd. [11 DECEMBER 1979] and Other Companies, &c., Bill Hon. W. D. LICKISS (Mt. Coot-tha If the receivers and liquidators have Minister for Justice and Attorney-General) reas:mruble cause to believe that any person (9.7 p.m.): Clause 5 of the schedule outside the State of Queensland has in his says-- possession or control any trust moneys with respect to these companies, this clause Mr. Wright: That is claims. empowers the receivers and liquidators to issue a direction for the remitting of such Mr. LICKISS: The member mentioned moneys to the receivers and liquidators for clause 5 of the schedule. This clause pro inclusion in the trust moneys to be dis vides that only claims received within the tributed in accordance with this scheme. The period stated in the advertisement, which direction, receipt and subsequent distribution period will not be less than six months, will of such moneys by the receivers and liquidat be considered. ors will be covered bv clauses 4 and 5 of the Bill. • What he was really inquiring about was clause 6 of the schedule as it relates to As I said, it might well be that, once claims. Capricornia Finance and Marketing Cor poration receives a direction, it might, on Mr. Wright: And also clause 2 in relation that direction, be prepared to pay the to receipts, correSI]Jondence, and documents, moneys over. Those moneys will then be and to link all this up with what is going part of the scheme and be paid out in to be required. accordance with the scheme envisaged in the Bill once they are in Queensland. Mr. LICKISS: Clause 2 relates to the advertisement whkh states the existence of Mr. Wright: What about Alfred Grant trust monevs and so on. When submitting personally and his personal assets? Clause a claim, it- is expected that each claimant 11 of the schedule does allow you to would be required to :provide the receivers investigate the possible holding of moneys. and liquidators with all ll'elevant information, rece1pts and so on in their possession which Mr. LICKISS: Yes; but if the honourable would su!bstantiate the cla,im to the best of member analyses the Bill, he will see that their ability. it can deal only with the receivers and the liquidators disposing of the moneys in trust Clause 3 of the SIChedule requires the accounts. Till the money is in a trust receivers and liquidators to write to persons account, it cannot be paid out. known to them to be potential claimants at the last address known to the receivers and liquidators. Mr. "'RIGHT (Rockhampton) (9.11 p.m.): I will accept the Minister's e:x:planation in Clause 4 requires the receivers and liqui part, but clause 11 of the schedule does dators to allow a hiatus period off not less say, "If the receivers and liquidators have than six months to allow all possible claims reasonable cause to believe"-and I think to be received. That ties in with the matter we have given them reasonruble cause tonight that I just dealt with, clause 5, which pro -"that any person,"-again, Alfred Grant vides that only claims received in the period "whether within"-and he is certainly stated in the advertisement, which pedod within the State-"or outside the State, has will be not less than six months, will be in his possession or under his control any considered. moneys on behalf of, as agent for or in any way associated with the activities of The next pertinent clause is clause 6, the companies"-and, after all, he was the which enables claims to be processed in the one who set the whole thing up--"or any light of the best information available to the of them that if paid to the receivers and receivers and liquidators. The best informa liquidators or any of them would be trust tion will relate •to the books of account moneys ..." within the possession of the receivers and liquidators in Australia, considered together Surely, if he has benefited from the original and in conjuncton with the information and scheme and they were receipts from the land material submitted by the various claimants sold, that money ought to be paid into trust and such other infioi'ma:tion gathered by the and, therefore, be distributed as trust money. receivers and liquidators that they consider I am asking the Minister whether clause 11 to be relevant. of the SJchedule gives him the power that .we believe is necessary to allow the liquidat I do not know ·whether honourable mem ors and the receivers to now investigate bers want me to carry on through the Alfred Grant the person-he lives within the schedule until I come to clause 11, which Sta·te~and get at not only the money that gives the receivers and liquidators power to he has siphoned away but also at the assets issue a direction to people overseas. How that he owns. ever, as has already been stated, that is as far as this Bill can go. We have no Hon. W. D. LICKISS (Mt. Coot-tha jurisdiction to legislate in respect of some Minister for Justice and Attorney-General) thing that happened outside Queensland. (9.12 p.m.): I think I indicated earlier that Alfred Grant Pty. Ltd. [11 DECEMBER 1979] and Other Companies, &c., Bill 2481 no offence has been committed here in Mr. LICKISS: To the best of my know Queensland, as far as can be ascertained, by ledge, as far as Capricornia is concerned, the person ALfred Grant. I reiterate that the sum is approximately $438,000. we are dealing here with trust money. I think that the honourable member is looking Mr. BURNS (Lytton) (9.16 p.m.): I think at what has happened overseas. When a the Minister hit the nail on the head when sale was made-- he talked about Capricornia being the key Mr. Wright: Forty-dive per cent of the to this whole issue. The Alfred Grant family deposit. company, Capricornia, siphoned off half and kept it in Jersey; the other half was sent to the vendor companies here. Mr. LICKISS: Would the honourable member mind if I folloored this through? I have here a letter from Capricornia dated 29 April 1977 written to one of the Mr. Wright: I am sorry. people who have written to me. Part of it reads- Mr. LICKISS: The honourable member " As the main collecting agents in respect is looking at an actual sale, so let us take of overseas contracts, Capricornia has an actual sale. Forty-dive per cent of the accounted to the Vendors for all monies received under the individual contracts. We money was paid out in commission. It have supplied, and will continue to sup would not be trust money at that stage, ply, the Vendors and Alfred Grant Pas because the money was not paid into trust toral Properties Pty. Limited with full accounts. The 5 per cent handling charge details of all monies received by us. In was paid out. The money that was actually addition, we have forwarded to the paid to Capricornia, under t'hose cir,cum Receiver a detailed schedule of all monies stances, was 50 per cent, and that money collected showing how these have been was not in a trust account. To the best applied in accordance with the Vendors knowledge of the receivers and liquidators, instructions and in particular the amounts it was then transmitted to Australia where remitted to Australia. As stated in our it was paid into a trust account. ' first circular letter, any monies due to the Vendors which have been received by us Mr. Wright: You are saying that he got since the appointment of the Receiver, or away with it. were held by us at the date of his appoint ment, have been placed in a Trust Sus pense Account pending clarification of Mr. LICKISS: No. We are saying that this the position." Bill deals with the disposal of trust moneys. As I said before, clause 11 of the schedule I accept the Minister's statement that that is the key. provides that if the receivers and liquidators have reasonable cause to believe that any I seek the Minister's assurance that if person outside the State of Queensland has Capricornia does not bend to the suggestion in his possession or under his control any in clause 11 of the schedule that the receivers trust moneys with respect to these com and liquidators take such action as is available panies, the receivers and liquidators are to them, he will ask Scotland Yard to empowered to issue a direction for the remitt investigate the company's activities in relation ing of such moneys to the receivers and to some of its fraudulent letters, fraudulent liquidators for inclusion in the trust moneys statements that have been made to people to be distr~buted in accordance with this dealing with it, and fraudulent deals. It scheme. The direction, receipt and subse might be that, by taking some legal action quent distribution of such moneys by the against the company, the Government can receivers and liquidators will be covered by force it to return the money. clauses 4 and 5 of the Bill. I believe that a lot more than $400,000 Tlhere are some other pertinent facts in is involved. It sent $375,000 here as vendors' relation to Alfred Grant the person. In money. It retained half, so another $375,000 fact, Alfred Grant the person is bankrupt. must be kept on the other side. It got 50 Mr. Wright: What about his wife and per cent commission and returned 50 per daughter? cent to Queensland. The honourable member for Rockhampton Mr. LICKISS: The clause in fact relates referred to 700 blocks of land. One person to funds held, and principally the substantial who wrote to me paid $11,700 for a block, assets are held by Caprioornia. It is these and others were dearer than that. So a moneys in relation to which a direction will considerable amount of money is involved. be given. I have a reconciliation that refers to $2,300,000, which is a lot more than Mr. Wright: There is $400,000, isn't there? $600,000 or $400,000. 2482 Local Government Act and [11 DECEMBER 1979] Another Act Amendment Bill I believe that the Capricomia group is throughout the State and for the benefit of the key to the whole matter. If my infor the people of the State generally. The four mation is correct, Mrs. Grant and the principles to which I refer relate to-- daughters were involved in this company. (a) The approval by a local authority Although Alfred Grant might be bankrupt of persons wishing to operate in the field in Queensland, he appears to be doing all of collection and disposal of commercial right in the tax-free haven of the Channel and industrial re:fuse 'in its area; Islands. (b) The fencing of private swimming If the Government cannot obtain voluntary pools; co-operation from Capricornia, it should ask (c) The making of a contr,jbution by a that action be taken by the receivers. If local authority towards the cost of con they will not take action, the Minister's struction of railways to serve its area; and department should ask Scotland Yard to investigate. (d) The effect of local authority town planning schemes on Crown land. Hon. W. D. LICKISS (Mt. Coot-tha For the information of the Committee, I Minister for Justice and Attorney-General) will proceed to give a summary of the (9.18 p.m.): We are well aware of all the principal provisions of the Bill. As honour problems associated with this. It is hoped able members will be aware, under the that clause 11 of the schedule will encour Health Act and the Refuse Management age Capricornia to forward to Australia Regulations made thereunder, a local funds that it is holding. If it does not do so, authority is charged with respons~bility for we will have to review the situation. ellliuring the coll~ction and disposal of domestic, commereial and industrial refuse Schedule, as read, agreed to. from premises within its area. Bill reported, without amendment. The A!ct and the regulations provide three methods by whkh this may be achieved. Firstly, the local authority may itself carry THIRD READING out the work by day labour. Secondly, it Bill, on motion of Mr. Lickiss, by leave, may contmot with some person to caHy out read a ,third time. an or part of the refuse eo1!ection and disposal required. The third course, and one often adopted, is for commercial and ·indus trial refuse to be removed by approved LOCAL GOVERNMENT ACT AND priv&te operators engaged by the owners of ANOTHER ACT AMENDMENT the premises concerned. BILL Where this course is adopted •the Refuse INITIATION Management Regulations require that the person who removes the commercial or Hon. R. J. HINZE (South Coast-Minister •industria:! refuse must be ,first approved by for Local Government and Main Roads) the local authority. This procedure is, of by leave, w~thout notice: I move- ' course, designed to ensure that in the "That 'the House will, at its present interests of publk health, only competent sitting, resolve itsdf into a Committee persons a·re employed in the work o:f remov of the Whole to consider introdudna a ing commercia:! and industrial refuse. Bill to amend the Local Government Aot 1936-1979 and the Oity of Brisbane Town Under present law an applicant for the Planning Act 1964-1979 each in certain local authority's approval has no right of particulars and tfor related pur,poses." appeal if his appli>cation be refu,ed. Rep resentwtions have been made that there Motion agreed to. should be a ,right of appeal in these circum stances. We accordingly propose to insert a provisi!on in the Local Government Aot to INmATION IN COMMITTEE the effect that, 'where an application for approval is made, the local authority shall ~Mr. Gunn, Somerset, in the chair) grant approval itf j,t is satisfied 'that the appl~cant is in a position to, and is likely Hon. R. J. HINZE (South Coast-Minister to, comply with all the oonditions to which for Local Govemment and Main Roads) (9.22 p.m.): I move- the local authorj,ty proposes to subject the granting of approvals of this type. "That a BiLl be introduced to amend the Local Government Act 1936-1979 and The Bill further provides thM an appli the City of BDisbane Town Planning Act cant for approval who is dissatisfied with the 1964-1979 each in certain pal'ticulars and local authority's decision on his application for related punposes." will have a right of appeal to a Magistrates Court sitting in the area of the local auth This Bill introduces [nto the Local Govern ority concerned. Provisions are inserted ment Alot four new pmnciples which it is prescribing the machinery for the lodgment considered are necessary for the more and determination of such appeals and it efficient opemtion of local government is provided that the court may reverse or Local Government Act and [11 DECEMBER 1979] Another Act Amendment Bill 2483 vary the local authority's decision or dismiss between the commissioner and the local the appeal. The court's order will be final authority setting out the terms and conditions and binding and it will not have power to upon which the contribution is to be made. award costs. Honourable members may be aware that The next amendment contained in the Bill the Redland Shire Council is desirous of provides that the regulation of swimming extending the railway line terminating at pools on private land is, and always was, a Lota within the City of Brisbane to Thome function of local government. The Bill goes side in the Shire of Redland, thereby pro on to insert a new provision in the Local viding a direct mil link between developing Government Act providing that, notwith areas in the Redland Shire and the centre of standing the provisions of any other Act, a the city. The council is prepared to make a local authority has, and it is declared always contribution towards the capital cost of the had, power to make by-laws requiring the construction of this extension, but under erection of a fence around a swimming-pool present law it has no power to do so. on private land, or around the boundaries of private land or the part of private land on We feel that a local authority should be which a swimming-pool is erected, in each empowered to make such a contribution if case for the purpose of impeding the access it feels that it will facilitate the provision of of children generally or of a specified class railway services to its area. Accordingly, we to the swimming-pool. propose to amend the Act to provide auth ority for such action. Again, I would stress Recent legal advice is to the effect that, that there is no compulsion on a local because of a recent amendment of the authority to make such a contribution and Building Act, it is not competent for a local the prior approval of the MinisteT will be authority to make a by-law requiring the required before suoh action is taken. The erection of a fence around a swimming honourable member for Redlands is fully pool. Honourable members will be aware aware of the position and is a strong sup that a considerable number of local author parte'!' of this particular provision. ities have already made by-laws dealing with the fencing of swimming-pools in the interests The next amendment contained in the Bill of public safety and convenience, and we feel is designed to darify the application of local that the right of local authorities to make authority town planning schemes to Crown such by-laws should be clarified. lands. A recent decision of the High Court of Australia is to the effect that a town I should stress that the making of such planning scheme made by a local authority by-laws will be completely discretionary on does not bind the Crown, and there is a the part of a local authority and there is no strong inference from the judgment that compulsion. Whether or not by-laws are the provisions of a town planning scheme do made is a policy decision of the local author not apply when lands are alienated by the ity. Crown. In order to bring the Brisbane City Council As I am advised, the effect of the judg within the scope of the proposed amendment ment is that, in the event of Crown land it provides that the term "Local Authority'; being sold or leased, the provisions of a town used therein includes the Brisbane City planning scheme have no application to the Council so that that council will be auth land until the local authority takes action orised to make ordinances dealing with pri to bring it under town planning control. vate swimming-pools and the fencing thereof. This, of course, takes some period of time. The amendment provides that nothing con The consequence of this is that the pur tained in a by-law or ordinance made by a chaser or lessee of the land can use it local authority dealing with fencing of allot as he likes until the land is brought under ments on which private swimming-pools town planning control. are erected will affect the discretion of a I think all honourable members will agree Magistrates Court under the Dividing Fences that it is a reasonable proposition that the Act. This means that a person will have Crown should not be bound by the provisions a right of recourse to the Magistrates Court if he has a dispute with his neighbour con of a local authority town planning scheme in cerning the erection of a dividing fence respect of the use and occupation of its between their properties for the purposes own lands but that, when such lands are of a by-law or ordinance of the type referred alienated, the person acquiring an interest to. in the land should be subject to town planning control. The Bill accordingly provides that The next amendment included in the Bill the power of a local authority to prepare a is designed to empower a local authority in its disc~e!ion and with the prior approvai of town planning scheme for its area includes, the Mmtster, to make a contribution to and it is declared always included, power the Commissioner for Railways towards the to include in the scheme all lands within the cost of extending a railway line which will area whether they be Crown land or other serve the particular local authority area. wise. As will be mentioned later, the pro Before any such ~ontTibutian may be made, visions of the scheme will not, however, have an agreement wtll have to be executed application to Crown land until it is alienated. 2484 Local Government Act and [11 DECEMBER 1979] Another Act Amendment Bill The Bill further declares that the power and any conditions imposed by the local auth of a local authority to make aiJiPlication to ority in respect of the rezoning will bind the Minister for an amendment of a town the purchaser or lessee unless the Governor planning scheme and of the Minister to in Council otherwise directs. recommend an amendment of such a scheme includes, and always included, power to make Honourable mernbers will be aware that such an application or recommendation in the Brisbane Town Plan is made not under relation to Crown land and whether or not the Local Government Act but under the the scheme had operation to the land con City of Brisbane Town Planning Act. In cerned at the time the application or recom these circumstances, it is necessary that com mendation was made. plementary amendments be made to that Act, and the Bill does this. Likewise, it is declared that the power of a local authority to make by-laws to I think honourable mernbers will agree implement a town planning scheme includes, that the amendments proposed by the Bill and always included, power to make such will make for better local government in by-laws in relation to Crown land. Queensland. I have had discussions with the Lord Mayor of Bri~bane on the pro As I mentioned previously, the Bill pro posed amendments relating to fencing of vides that a town planning scheme and a private swimming"']Yools and the effect of by-law made by a local authority to imple town planning schemes on Crown lands, ment a toWIIl planning scheme do not bind and he supports these proposals. the Crown. The intention is that the Crown is not bound by the scheme in respect of I commend the Bill to the Committee. land in its use or OCOUipation but, when the land is alienated, the person acquiring an Mr. PREST (1\>rt Cuntis) (9.34 p.m.): One interest in the land will be bound by local or two of the four principal amendments to authority town planning requirements. the Act have been long awaited by the The Bill also clarifies that, where land Opposition. The proposed amendment re}at included in a town planning scheme is ~ing to 1oc:aJ authorities' oontr~buting to acquired by the Crown, then the scheme milway services in their areas could be or a by-Jaw made by the local authority to controversial. However, I shall deal with implement the scheme and any agreement the proposed amendments in order. or oonditions previously made or imposed by The first amendment relates to the approval the local authority concerning the use of by a local authority of pe~ons wish!ng to the land wi1:l cease to operate for as long operate in the field of colle~t10n and d1~po~al as the land remains Crown land. However, of commercial and industnal refuse m Its when the land is alienated by the Crown area, and the Opposition agrees wiuh th!s the provisions of the town planning scheme proposal. We believe that the Act a~ It or town planning by-bw and any agreement now stands is iniquitous. We do not believe or conditions made or imposed by the local that the little fellow who is currently col authority ooncerning the use of the land and lecting industrial and commercial waste in force at the time the land became Crown should be squeezed out simply because a land will beoome operative and bind the local authority calls tenders for the collec purchaser, lessee or OCCUipier of the land tion of waste and a big contractor under concerned. cuts the smaH fe1Io,w not only for domestic waste but also for aH other types of waste. The Bill provides that none of the pro visions I have mentioned are to be oonstrued The little fellow is quite willing to con to derogate from the provisions of section tinue to operate his commercial yentur~. 21A of the Mining Act which states that If he applies to the coun~il !O c<;mtm~e h1s a town planning scheme does not have operation and if his aJ?phca~wn IS r~Jected, application to lands in re;wect of which this amendment will give him the ngh.t. to a mining lease has been granted by the appeal to a magistrate. . The. OppositiOn Crown. believes that any one who Is bemg squeezed out and is not getting a fair go should In oonsequence of the provisions rnbove have the right of appeal. Therefore, the mentioned the Bill provides for the making Opposition agrees with the amendment. of an application to a local authority for the rezoning of Crown land that is proposed I now turn to the second amendment, to be sold, leased or otherwise let. The which relates to the fencing of private application will be made by the Minister swimming-pools. This matter has been talked of the Crown in oharge of the land con about for some years, and the measure cerned. Where an application is made in these ciroumstances, unless the Minister has been long awaited. While the Govern making the application agrees with the local ment has dithered and put off accepting the authority, that is, where the land is to be proposals that have been put up, in particular developed by the Crown prior to its dis bv the Brisbane City Council, unfortunately position, it is to be deemed vhat the appHca ~any young children have either lost their tion is made for and on behalf of the lives through drowning or suffered permanent prospective puochaser or lessee of the land damage in near-drowning accidents. Local Government Act and [11 DECEMBER 1979] Another Act Amendment Bill 2485 I now refer to a few Press clippings deal do somehting positive about it. It is up to ing with the fencing of swimming-pools in local authorities to get on with ,the job. Queensland. One dated 13 October 1978 contains a warning by Dr. Pearn a reader I now tum to the third and most 1mpor in child health at the Queensland Uni tant amendment to the Act, whiich enables versity. He said that every in-ground, above local authorities to make contributions ground or splasher pool in people's yards was towards the cost of construction of a rail a potential child killer. way to serve their area. This has come out of the blue. From comments made and In 1976 Dr. Pearn and the Queensland Press reports, it appears that H has been University's senior lecturer in child health brought 'about by the Redland Shire Council (Mr. Nixon) conducted two studies, under saying that it is willing to make a contribu the ausptces of the Queensland Health tion towards a rail line to service the area. ~epar~ment,. into swimming-pool accidents It also appears that this has the support mvolvmg children. They used data from all of the member for Redlands. ?f th~ drowning and near-drowning accidents Today I have spoken to various people 1!1 Bnsbane over a period of five years from 1971 to 1975 inclusive. Thev found that from the Redlands area. I was toJd that pools of over 10m3 and/or over 50 cm in the ratepayers' association down there is depth have to be fenced in the Australian ~totally opposed to any contribution tfrom the shire council to the Commissioner for Rail Capital Territory, and that from 1971 to ways for a rail service. I have been told 1975 only one. child died from a swimming and I am certain ~that this is so~that the pool acc1d~nt m the A.C.T., compared with Liberal supporters on the shire council are 55 s\vtmmmg-pool deaths in Brisbane. They maintained that any unfenced pool was a also against the proposition. hazard to children. It will be recalled that during the Red oliffe by-election campaign promises for a If one goes in to the history of this matter railway came out of 'the blue. Such state one finds that late in 1978 the Labor and ments seem to emanate from the National Libera! aldermen of the Brisbane City Party when it thinks it is in trouble at Counctl expressed different points of view election-time. From what we have read in on this matter. The Lord Mayor accused the today's newspaper, it is very obvious that State Government of playing Russian rou there is going to be a lot of talk. The lette with children's lives by shelving the Government is going to do wonders with its council's planned pool fencing ordinances. electric rail system! It spoke a~bout provid The ~iberal leader in the Brisbane City ing a service to Reddiffe and the Gold C~unc1l (Alderman McDonald) said that Coast. It says it will electrify the Brisbane ch!ldre~ w_ould be safer if their parents fenced subu11ban system and the mil system from them 111 mstead of expecting pool owners here to the coalfields. to fence them out. He said that that would protect children not only from swimming There is further talk about putting another pools but also from the far more serious bridge over or a tunnel under the Brisbane dangers in creeks and drains and on roads River. These are election promises that none of which could be effectively fenced. ' have been made for quite some 'tDme. It appears that the member for Redlands thinks I will not read all the Press cuttings that he is on the skids and has to do something I have. This amendment to the Local Gov about getting a rail system dawn there as a ernment Act will give local authorities the way of holding his seat. opportu~ity to make their own own by-laws and to Implement safety measures in relation I have been told that, because of the devel to the fencing of pools, the fencing of vards or opment that is taking place in the Raby Bay the part-fencing of yards. That W'il! give area, the Gm ernment might be considering some form of protection to small children a railway to serve that area. Although we I~ is the two-year-olds who are in the higl~ have heard a great deal about the Raby Bay nsk category. It was shown that pool development, it has not received the blessing fences do not have to be of a great height. of all concerned. A hetght of 89 cm-not as high as the height suggested by the Brisbane City Council I remind honourable members that rail \Yould keep out most two-year-olds. Most links and rail systems are very costly. In an two-year-old children could not even climb article on 21 July 1979, it was stated that over a 60 cm fence. Those figures are from the estimated cost of the two electrified links a study made by Dr. Pearn. from Brisbane to Redcliffe and from Bris bane to the Gold Coast would be more than ~egislative provision is at last being made. It IS not what the local authorities them $100,000,000, and that it might be necessary selves have been looking for. It is a to amend the relevant legislation, including watere~-down y~rsion. Instead of doing the Local Government Act, to enable local somethmg positive, the Government is authorities to participate in the proposed throwing on to Jocal government the res scheme. ponsibility for protecting children from drowning in pools. This is something Bearing in mind the losses sustained on that we have been talking about for years railway operations over the past years-and and local government will now be able t~ they amount to $100,000,000 or more annually 2486 Local Government Act and [11 DECEMBER 1979] Another Act Amendment Bill -the Opposition is quite concerned that the throughout the State." I am certain that hon Government now proposes to expand the rail ourable members on this side of the Cham system and spend more money, and that it ber will violently oppose the proposed amend intends to introduce legislation under which ment. local authorities, with the approval of the Minister for Local Government and Main The fourth amendment concerns the Roads, will be able to make an offer and rezoning of Crown land that is leased within enter into an agreement with the Commis a local authority area. This amendment is sioner for Railways. Personally, I disagree necessary. I do not believe that people who with that proposal. I do not see why a mem occupy Crown land should be given special ber of a local authority, who may be in protection. This amendment has !been found office for only a short period, should be able necessary because of a court decision that it to enter into an agreement with the Com ,was illegal to apply any town planning pro missioner for Railways that will bind the vision to any leased land that was once council for many years to come. In the case held by the Crown. It is only right that the of the Redland Shire, the period could be conditions that apply to all other land should 40 years ..That is a very long time, and I apply also to Crown land that is leased. do not believe that any local authority should I believe, however, that the amendment commit itself to assist the Government rail ways. should go further than that. Any building on CrOIWn land should have to meet the . Railway lines are necessary; railway exten srume requirements and conditions as those siOns are necessary; but I do not think it is imposed on any building that is erected by right for a local authority to commit rate ,the ordinary person or by any private payers for such a period. I reiterate that the organisation. Whether the building be a railways are losing millions of dollars a year Crown building or not, it should have to and we, as . taxpayers, are all contributing comply with the conditions. towards ma~mg good that loss. The people of The Opposition agrees to three of the Redland S.h1re. and every other local authority amendments that are pmposed. The amend are contnbutmg towards making good the ment relating to swirnming·pools has been overall loss. In addition, under this proposal, delayed for a lengthy period. It is now being they could be contributing towards the cost brought forward in the dying stages of this o.f a railway ext.ens.ion to service their par session. The amendment does nothing more ticular area. This Is only the thin end of than provide what the Brisbane City Coun the wedge. Once this proposal has been cil asked for as far back as 1977 or earlier. approved, further amendments will be made to t~is section of the Local Government Act The Opposition is vehemently opposed to to. bu~d local authorities to make some con the amendment ooncerning uhe contribution tnbutw? to;vards the cost of the railway by local authorities to the Commissioner for system m this State, whether in the Redlands Rcailways to cover the servicing of raiiway area, on the Gold Coast, or in the Central lines. As I say, three of the amendments West. have our blessing; the fourth, in relation to railway contr,rbutions, does not. The railways are now in competition with road transport, particularly in western areas. Mr. GOLEBY (RedJands) (9.52 p.m.): The W~at would prevent the Commissioner for Minister has indicated that the Bill deals Rmlways from saying to the people in the with a wide range of matters affecting local vVes.t, "We are going to discontinue your government. I will deal firstly with the service unless we receive a contribution of amendment ,concerning waste disposal. It is some millions of dollars each year."? necessary because in SOIIT!e local authority areas, par'ticularly in the cities of Gold Mr. Frawley: That is wrong. Coast and Rockhampton, pmblems have arisen booause the local authority has deter mined that, no matter how many persons Mr.. PREST: It is not wrong. If this pro wish to contract to provide this service to pas~! IS agreed to, only a further amendment the public, there will be only one contractor. of the Loc~l Government Act will be required. Whether or not anyone else conforms to Pressure will be put on local authorities. the prov,isions of the Health Act, he stands no chance of obtaining the contract. T11e Govemment Members interjected. B:n will tidy up that situation. It will also stop any other local authority follow ing the pa:Hern set by Gold Coast and Rock Mr. PREST: The Chairman of the Redland hampton. Shire Council, Councillor Wood, is a very strong supporter of the National Party and The next amendment concerns the fenc a former member of this Assembly. In his ling of swimming,pools. This is an later years, he is a yes-man for the Gov emotional and controversial issue and its ernment, and in effect he is saying, "Introduce pros and cons have been debated for a lengthy rperiod. Bach of us \v'Ould agree it into the Local Government Act. We will that what a person does to provide put our name to it, and later you can amend amenit,ies for his family is his o-wn business. the Act to include all local authorities An Englishman's home is his castle. Local Government Act and [11 DECEMBER 1979] Another Act Amendment Bill 2487 I haJVe held the view that ,jf a person for over 12 months, the local authority has does not wish to fence his property he been discussing with the Minister for Trans should not be required to do so. Conversely, port a rail link to the Redland area. if a person wishes to fence his property, ib.e should lbe a1lowed to erect a fence. Mr. K. 1. Hooper: Are you still holding two offices of profit under the Crown? More than 40 local authorit,ies have intro duced by-laws compelling the owner of a by 1988 the population of the shire will be costs will be incurred again. As I said, the about 80,000. That is when the Government total cost will be $9,500,000 for a diesel planners estimate that the line will be service and $11,000,000 for electrification. reinstated. I can understand that some members would Redlands cannot afford to wait that long, be concerned in that a precedent is being so the Redland Shire Council decided unan set. I assure them that the Bill clearly imously to contribute towards the provision outlines that this is being done with the of the rail link as far as Thorneside, which approval of the Minister. The Opposition is about 2 km from Lota. That is the most spokesman referred to its being an imposition. expensive section of the line, because it The people requiring transport do not regard win cross Lota and Tingalpa Creeks. It is it as an imposition. The offer came from estimated to cost between $2,500,000 and the council; the Government did not make $3,000,000. This is the only area in respect a request of the council. I repeat that the of which the Redland Shire Council is local authority will not be involved in prepared to commit itself. maintenance, operating or other costs. It has absolutely no commitment with This is not the first time that the Redland regard to maintenance, operating or other Shire Council has funded areas that are costs. In addition, the council has received normally outside the province of local the approval and the assurance of the Min authorities. That council was the first local ister that the earthworks involved in the authority to become involved in electricity construction of this line will be carried out distribution. A few years ago, the Local by the council. On the one hand, ,it is Government Act was amended so that the providing finance, but on the other hand people on Coochie Mudlo Island could haYe it will enjoy the benefi,ts of the work and electricity. The local authority become the ~he employment for those people working for guarantor. Electricity is now spreading to It. Lamb, Karragarra, Macleay and Russell Islands. This is one area in which the council I congratulate the people who have had has broken new ground in providing amenities the foresight to move into this field. By for the people. 1982 there will be a rail link to Thorneside Coming closer to home, a nev,r assembly which would not have been provided until hall is almost completed at the Cleveland 1988 or 1990 when, as I said, the population Showgrounds. It is being built by the p. & c., will exceed 80,000. So no-one would deny the Government and the local authority. The that public transport will be very much council is providing $100,000 to lessen the needed. burden on the p. & c. in the provision of this hall. This is clear evidence that the local It is also interesting to note that, by using authority is prepared to meet the needs of the old route, only five stations will be the people. !ocated .between Lota and Cleveland. It IS a straight and direct route, and an efficient A commuter terminal has almost been com and fast transport system will be provided. pleted at Redland Bay. The local author.ity provided $650,000 to have the work earned The main cost and time will be expended out because nothing had been allocated for on th~ construction of bridges over Lota it in the Estimates of the Department of an.d Tmgalr;a. Creeks. To make sure that Harbours and Marine, nor would anything this propositiOn was feasible, the council have been allocated for this purpose for engag~d the firm of Munro Johnson and many years to come. The local authority is Associates to carry out a study in the initial providing a facility that will be used by the stages. The findings were most favourable people of Redland Bay and the bay islands an~ they have been forwarded to the Metro and members of the boating public who use politan Transit Authority. A more in-depth that part of the bay. stud?' was undertaken by Ford, Bacon and Dav1s. The local authority has also been making contributions towards the construction of The estimated cost of the completed line swimming-pools. The Redland Shire is the to Cleveland for diesel traffic is $9,500,000. most closely-settled local authority area in The ~tatement by the Opposition spokesman Queensland. t~at It would cost $100,000,000 shows how Mr. Kruger: It's better off since you got little he knows about the Redlands area out of it. and the small length of line involved. The entire line is only 12 km in length. It will Mr. GOLEBY: It has prospered since I traverse very easy terrain on land that was have been there, and it will prosper even previously used for a rail service. more because I have no intention of leaving. Certainly the A.L.P. will not achieve any The cuttings and the ballast are intact. thing there. Most of the culverts were renewed shortly Because I see it as breaking new ground, before the previous line was pulled up. The I commend this Bill to the Committee. Con overhead bridge at Wellington Point, which trary to what has been suggested, a rail cost £30,000 ($60,000), was completed shortly way line would not be a burden on the rate before the line was pulled up. None of these payer. When the final assessment is made, Local Government Act and [11 DECEMBER 1979] Another Act Amendment Bill 2489 it will be seen that each ratepayer will pay is that the Redland Shire Council will bor only a minute amount, but in return will row a certain amount to assist in the con benefit from the provision of a fast and struction of an $11,000,000 project. I have efficient rail service ten years earlier than never heard of a more ridiculous scheme. would normally be the case if we waited It is much the same as the Rail for Red for the completion of the Brisbane electri cliffe campaign we heard about before the fication programme. recent Redcliffe by-election. I suppose the same situation will arise there. Who will pay for the rail to Redcliffe, the Pine Rivers Mr. DAVIS (Brisbane Central) (10.7 p.m.): Shire Council or the Redcliffe City Council? Over the years we have seen some pretty shabby tricks played by this Government, Mr. Kruger: Are you aware that they were but I think this would have to be its worst down there dangling it like a carrot in front political trick, all in an endeavour to improve of the electors? the failing fortunes of the member for Redlands. Mr. DAVIS: We know all about what the Mr. Katter interjected. National Party and the Liberal Party were ,trying to do during that by-election. After the thrashing that the National Party in Mr. DAVIS: I missed that from Omar par,ticular got from the electors of that Sharif. area, we have not heard too much about the proposed Redcliffe rail link. Mr. Katter: At least you admit to my good looks. Perhaps the member for Redlands would be kind enough to tell us if the Redland Shire Council is prepared to subsidise the Mr. DAVIS: You reckon Omar Sharif is $300,000 that this Government gives to the good looking? I thought he was the equiva Redland lbus servke at the present time. lent of Dr. Jekyll. How far should State Govemment subsidies go? If the Redland Shire Council has money A number of months ago the Minister to put into an instrumentality that should be for Transport said that he was in favour a Government responsibility-that is what of allowing local authorities such as the Red public transport should b~then obviously land Shire Council to borrow money to the ratepayers should be told that their rates assist in obtaining a railway extension. But are too high. I advise Councillor Goleby the Labor Party sees this proposal as noth that he would be far better off reducing the ing but a pathetic attempt to save the mem rates in the Redland Shire. ber for Redlands. We want to know who will pay that part of the cost of the exten The report of the M.T.A. stated tha,t it sion not contributed by the local authority. would be unprofitable 'to put a railway line As we see it, the Bill will have local author through to the Redland Shire. The Govern ities participating in an auction system. "Now, ment is deliberately trying to put for,ward a who wants a railway?" Any local authority scheme for the Redland Shire Council to try that wants a railway line and is willing to prop up the member for Redlands. to pus.h. its little barrow can now apply to the Mm1ster for Transport and say, "Righto, This is a bad Bill. It should never have we want a railway in this section and we been introduced, particu1arly that part of it are willing to assist the Government to build ,that deals with subsidies to assist transport. it." That is just what is occurring with The Opposition opposes the Bill. As a this Redland Shire project. The proposed matter of fact, it ,is amazing that the Liberal line will go from Lata, across Lota Creek Party is not opposing the Bill, because down to the Redland Shire. But one section surely it cuts across its policy. The Opposi of the line would be in the Brisbane Citv tion opposes the Bill because it believes that Council area. Does the Government wari't it is a bad Bill and that ,it has been :put for that council to come to the party? The ward by the National Party Min:ister for Local Government and Main Roads only in Government has already been very shy about an ,effort to prop up the flagging politkal subsidising the Brisbane City Council's buses. fortunes of the member for Redlands. Over the past few months we have heard reports about the construction of a railway Mrs. KYBURZ (Salisbury) (10.12 p.m.): line to the Gold Coast. The honourable This amendment to the Local Government member for Surfers Paradise was good enough Act is yet another amendment whkh, on a to read one of his leaked documents to us. few points, causes a great deal of concern. It stated that a certain body did not approve Other members have canvassed the swim of the proposed Gold Coast line. But what ming-pool regulations. I simply ask the would happen if the Gold Coast City Council Minister whether or not it is now proposed or the Albert Shire Council came to the that a local authority can make by-laws Government and said, "Look, we will give requiring the erection of a fence . for you a couple of million dollars towards this "either/or"-in other words, a fence either $100,000,000 project. Can we get a rail around the swimming-pool or around the way?"? All this provision boils down to property boundary. 2490 Local Government Act and [11 DECEMBER 1979] Another Act Amendment Bill I am ext,remely concerned about the aged pensioner and never go into the city Dividing Fences Act, in that arguments or may never need to use the railway. could arise betiween neighbours over fences There may be an adequate bus service, but around swimming-<{>ools. AJ1 honourable you will nevertheless contribute through your members know that dividing fences are a rates to the railway line." That concerns constant sore point in any community. me, particularly about the Gold Coast. Are Indeed, argi.IJIIlents over fencing are we to see land developers on the Gold extremely d,iffioult to handle. Although I Coast being asked to contribute to a railway agree that swimming-pools should be fenced, line? What an interesting prospect! I do not beiieve that the fencing of them should aggravate the situation. However, I The equally interesting prospect is that agree with the proposit1on that people with of the city of Redcliffe. As the proposed dogs and children should fence them in. I clause will not name the Redland Shire would like the Minister to assure me that Council, will it mean that all those election ,it is an "either/or" clause. promises thJt were so gl'ibly rattled off and then equally glibly withdrawn the day The clause that does concern me is after the Redcliffe by-election are to be clause 7-- forgotten and that if the ratepayers of Red cliffe want a railway line they can pay half Mr. K. J. Hooper: Have you a copy of the cost of it? Will we see those promises the Bill? brushed under the carpet, like dust in a house where nobody bothers with spring Mrs. KYBURZ: Naturally, in the joint cleaning? parties' meeting we get a brief. I do not have a copy of vhe Bill. I can see councils like the Landsboroug:h Shire Council being equa:lly embarrassed The .panicular c1ause of the Bill that con bv this clause. I know that there has been cerns me is the one rwhioh provides for a a· call for an extension of the North Coast local authority, with the rprior approval of railway line to go out along the Sunshine the Minister, to contribute to the capital Coast. While that might be necessary and cost of a raiJway line. I believe that it all very nice for the tourist business, are could smack of political chicanery of the the ratepayers along that coastal strip to be worst order. My concern is not only for the asked to contribute half the cost? The Redland Shire, although we have heard the ramifications of this clause are totally honourable member for RedJands speak most unworkable. H this provision is being brought eloquently &bout the need for a railway in in purely for the Redland Shire Council his area. Obviously I do not want to tourch and obviously the member for Redlands, upon that. If I did, I would do so at my as a councillor, would have had own peril. One knows that even the National the consent of the whole council before Party is quite capable of retaliating in raising this-I ask: Have all the ratepayers Liberal-held electorates in the manner in of the Redland Shire been asked what they Shire. It is in a different financial position want a railway line, they should start from most other shires. I believe that the putting up the money." It is odd that the Government is engaging in political grand Minister should put forward such a proposal standing. I say that because prior to the when he is looking closely at developers Redcliffe by-election the Government made paying money to local authorities to get many p:wmises about a rail to Redcliffe. rezonings. I believe that there is an anology A few nights pl1ior to the by-election, I here. The Minister for Local Government attended a public meeting in Reddiffe, and is coming unstuck. The people of Queens all I could see were National Party signs. land are fast waking up to him. He will be About six or seven National Party Ministers using this as a yardstick. In doing so, he and members addressed the crowd. They will not make himself more popular or talked about a railway to Redcliffe and what bring added standing to the Government would happen if their candidate was elected. in the eyes of the people of Queensland. Of course, that has now been forgotten about. On many occasions lately we have heard Ministers make general references to clauses Redcliffe does have a need for a raiLway in a Bill. It is high time when debating connection. All of us are aware of that; legislation that all members of Parliament it is just that some members make a great understood the Government's intentions. At issue of it at election-time. Vacant land is the second-reading stage, we will have a available, so it is time the Government further opportunity to debate the measure. stepped in and resumed it and designated When the problems are spelt out fully, we the route that the traok would follow. This will then be able to pull the measure apart. would avoid later inconvenience if the Gov I am sure that we will find much more in ernment chose to lay the railway through the Bill than we have been told about at an area with houses in it. Admittedly the this stage. member for Caboolture has a different idea because he had a ready•made tunnel in Mr. SIMPSON (Cooroora) (10.32 p.m.): his area. However, no matter where the The Local Government Act is a very large raiLway is laid, the route should be Act. Local government, which is the third designated. level of government in Australia, has a wide area of jurisdiction. It is only natural that At election-time it was suggested that lo.cal almost eYery session we amend the Local authorities contribute money to work of Government Act in some way to improve or this type. However, the idea was knocked refine it. back by the people of Reddiffe. They think it is wrong to ask local authority ratepayers The garbage disposal amendment is to bear the burden of railway costs. I do designed to give people an opportunity to not think many people would disagree with provide a service if they have suitable them. equipment. For some time the swimming pool amendment has been ventilated widely As the member for Salisbury asked, has throughout the media. It is designed to the Local Government Association been save lives and should be followed up with asked for its thoughts? What do local continuing education of the community government officers think about it? What generally. do the ratepayers think about it? All aspects should have been gone into and I The railway proposal is interesting. do not think the Minister has gone into Aramac and the J'viaroochy Shire both had them. I am sure that, as is typical of him, railway lines for carrying passengers and he has made his decision and is now trying goods. to inflict it on the people. I am concerned mainly about the town planning amendments relating to Crown The member for Redlands mentioned the land and the zoning of land for other than number of people who would be served by Crown use. In other words, the Crown a raiLway line in his area. There are plenty will not be bound, but anyone contemplating of other areas in which a greater number another use will be bound by the town plan. of people would be served by a line of equal I take it that local authorities will be length. As well, in certain areas the elect rification should be stepped up. The mere required to town plan Crown land. fact that the Redland Shire is prepared to In shires such as Widgee, where 50 per pay in a few bucks should have nothing to cent of the area is Crown land, that may do with whether a rai1way line is built. appear to be a somewhat academic exercise. Town planning relates to determining land Mr. Davis: It's a bit of an auction system. use for various purposes in a planned way so that the people of an area may have Mr. KRUGER: It is, and that is not the what they consider to be a worthwhile way that the State should be run. living area with provision for accommoda tion, industry, shops, housing and extractive I believe that the Minister could, and and noxious industries, if necessary. Some will, use this as a yardstick. He will say, councils in Queensland have been advised "The Redland Shire put in money to get a that they must have high-rise development. railway line. If any of the other shires The Noosa Shire is an example. Local Government Act and [11 DECEMBER 1979] Another Act Amendment Bill 2493 The analogy that has been used is that Coasts and other high-rise tourist destina a council cannot refuse an appLication to tions in the 'World and that there ,is no poant establish extractive industries or noxious in trying to sell people tours to such a industries and expect its neighbouring council destination. They can see the Gold Coas,t to make provision for that bit of dirty tyrpe of resort in their own countries, but washing, if I may describe it that way. That, not areas like the Sunshine Coast. Overseas of course, is a wrong analogy, because it visi,tors consider that area to be magnificent does not apply to high-rise development. It with its beaches, mount,ains and greenery, does not preclude the development of a and the f,act that high-rise development has particular type of business or accommoda not been allowed. 'Dhe Noosa Shire Counchl tion; it merely regulates shape, length and, must be congratulated on what it has done in this case, height. That is a normal to date. There is anothe,r problem if the requirement of town planning. council decides thrut '~t will not say, "No" to high-rise development and may allow high This is very important to the Sunshine rise by consenting to a certain application for Coast, because it is a prestige tourist destina development. A developer comes along and tion. H satisfies the needs of tourists from dangles $20,000,000 or so in front of the coun dty env,ironments that have high-rise cil as an incentive. The council might be development. Those people desire to visit a tempted to consent as Jong as the develop holiday area where natural beauty has been ment was 'tucked around the corner away maintained, where aesthetic beauty is valued from the beach-front where it might cast and where man's domination has not been shadows in the rufternoon. The ,counc.il allowed to run amuck with high-rise might think that that 'is an acceptable dev,elopment, neon signs, shady beaches, approach, but if it consents it sets a pre traffic hassles and the other :problems. cedent for adjoining land-owners who will want the same P'riV1ilege extended to them. Albout 15 or 20 years ago, places such On the other hand, if the council rejects as Miami Beach in America were very the application it will probably find itself popular. In the years following rhe Second t,aken to court very quickly and Hable for World War, they could not keep up with huge legal costs. When this occurs town the demand so they started building high planning ends up being determined by a rise accommodation. judge, which as usually no't the hest way to go about it. Council policy needs to take Mr. Innes: Vertical slums. aecount of all these factors. Mr. SIMPSON: They are now. People Another very important factor to be con have found that cramming people into high side,red is what the local people think a,bout a project. Consideration also needs to be rise towers has resulted in the creation of a given to what motiv;ates visitors to an area. high-rise ghetto or slum. Those areas are Members might think that vi:>itors to an now second-rate tourist resorts. Tourist area should have no say at all, but I believe entrepreneurs admit that. their wishes should be considered. Unfor tunately, it 'is very difficult to take an Because Japan has very few high-rise wccumte poll of what 'they think. However, buildings, the Japanese like to visit the a quhe different situation applies when we Gol!d Coast. Because of the number of look at what the local residents ,want. The earthquakes in Japan, the height of buildings Noosa Residents Association recently con there is restricted. People from other parts ducted a poll of residents of the Noosa of Austra1ia where there are no high-rise Heads and Cooloola Estate areas concerning buildings find it novel to visit the Gold high-rise development. The poll showed that Coast. However, most people in Australia 600 people were in favour of retaining the are closeted in high-rise situations. They are present building height restrictions and only wttmoted to areas such as the Sunshine Coast two were in favour of having them lifted. I know that it is said that one can obtain and particularly Noosa Heads. any result one wants from a poll, but I The Noosa Shire Council has a town defy anyone to t,ake a poll on the question plan before the Government. High-rise of high-nise development, no matter how it development is one of the aspects of the ,js worded, and obtain a majority in favour. p1an. It is not necessary to have high-rise I J,ssue that ,challenge to anyone who wants development there. What is meant by to po:oh-pooh the ,idea of taking a poll. high-rise development must be defined Mr. Bums: You support polls? because there is a different definition in every area. The Noosa Shire Council is ,referring to buildings in excess of palm tree Mr. SIMPSON: I support poJ!s on major height, or 50 feet in height. At the moment issues. the limitation in the Noosa area is 42 feet: Mr. Bums: Such as development? If this prestige destination is to be main tained, development must not exceed 42 feet in height. Mr. SIMPSON: Such as high-rise develop ment which will completely change 'the whole Freddie Laker, a world-wide entrepreneur concept of an area. Someone is prepared to has said thrut there are thousands of Gold rpay for a poll on the question of high-nise 81368-85 2494 Local Government Act and [11 DECEMBER 1979] Another Act Amendment Bill development in the Noosa area. If such a the sun, depending on whether it _is morn poll rwas conducted it could be broadened to ing or afternoon. On a beach facmg north include other factors, although this would be the only time that the sun is towards the more expensive. north is at midday when, of course, it is high in the sky. That is a major attraction A group has been formed in the Noosa of Noosa Beach, especially now that it has Shire to endeavour ,to assist the council been restored. It is a beautiful beach. In not fight d:t-in gathering such information. this case the views of the people should be It is attempt,ing to cover items such as taken notice of. traffic counts, the collection of data 'about water supply and other services that have A community should be able to devise its to be provided, and the estimation of ,the own opinion poll to find out the people's number of people who ,will Hve in the area view of what the best town plan would be. in the future. Some people have referred to That town plan should then be gazetted so it as an overall, integmted terminal develop that the people support the council in its ment-the optimum in planning----that has implementation. In such circumstances devel been tried in many parts of Amel.'ica. To opers would not be continually taking coun really preserve the area rwe need to develop cils to court. If emotive issues are left a plan that contains all these ingredients. purely in the hands of councils, they will be taken to court many times. It is no good saying that the council has been elected, and that :therefore ,it ,is its That is what happened with First Point prerogative to allow development to proceed, at Noosa Heads. The council did not feel because it is not. lt is equally our respon that it could make a decision and stand sibilfty as the Government in partnership by it, so it went to court. Now that area with the council. It is quite possible that the of land has been built on. It is a beautiful !residents could be at odds with their elected spot, but our forbears made the mistake representatives, because those representatives of making it freehold. The council was given may have been misinformed by so-called legal advice that it did not have a leg to experts, have a pecuniary interest in what stand on, and it was not able to rectify is proposed or be just plain out of t~mch. the position with good town planning. That They were elected, but perhaps other Issues land has now been used for development. were debated at the time-issues that were then more emotive. That sort of thing has an adverse effect on councils. It does not support the attitude This is a very emotive issue, and one of councils that set out, as the Noosa Shire that will not go away. People ask, "Why Council has, to keep the beauty of an area. should you ban it?" Well, high-rise building The only way to keep this beauty, greenery is not being banned at all; we are just point and naturalness is by good town planning ing out what the ideal development is. An that takes into account these particular values. illustration of how ideal it is comes from a Some members in this Chamber are the pro developer who put up a proposal for a duct of a high-rise environment. They love $500,000,000 tourist development at Noosa. that sort of environment and have chosen To my knowledge that is by far the largest it. However, they should remember that proposed tourist development ever suggested other people, such as those on the Sunshine for this State. That developer insists that Coast, have chosen a natural environment the project not be high rise. He claims which places a high value on aesthetics. that if the development is high rise, what is already there will be spoilt and tarnished, In the long run there will be greater devel and therefore the area is no longer a pres opment than if the emphasis is merely on tige destination. Any high-rise development high rise construction. There will be no would then have to compete with the thou trouble at all in having 250,000 people on the sands of others around the world, and would Sunshine Coast by the year 2000. That is my come off second best as it started after forecast of the way we are heading if the the others. A high-rise development would development is done properly and we do not spoil the environment for the people already spoil the area by going the way of ill-advised there, for the people who are attracted to people who say that we must go high rise it and the people who see the area as a and turn it into a concrete jungle. beautiful destination and want the option of not going to a high-rise area. Where I support the Minister's amendments to the else in Australia would they have that option? Local Government Act. Noosa has the northernmost habitable Mr. SHAW (Wynnum) (10.50 p.m.): Some beach that faces a northerly direction. Of 18 months ago I referred to problems that course, there is the beach at Rainbow Bay, were occurring with town planning. I can but that is a national park. To the south particularly recall pointing out to the is Mooloolaba. The advantage of a beach Minister the great need that existed for care, which faces the north is that at any time particularly when town planning amendments a surfer goes into the surf or comes out were introduced at Government level and of the surf the sun does not shine in his local people did not have the opportunity to eyes. On a beach which faces east, a per object. I pointed out then that large sums son either walks into the sun or surfs into of money were involved and, in view of that Local Government Act and [11 DECEMBER 1979] Another Act Amendment Bill 2495 fact alone, there was a need for justice to entirely unreasonable. If it is proposed to be done, and appear to be done. The fact that introduce amendments, I should like to see so much money is involved could not be high action taken to overcome that problem. lighted in any better fashion than the publicity However, I rather doubt that that will be we have seen over the last couple of days by done. a firm that was prepared to offer $1,000,000 to the Gold Coast City Council in order to gain Mr. Hinze: Why? its support for a town planning amendment. The Minister has since made the statement Mr. SHAW: Well, some of the statements that he believes a dangerous principle is that the Minister has made give cause for involved. I quite agree with that statement. concern. A report in today's "Telegraph" The interesting thing is that this sort of horse said- trading has been going on for many years. People have approached local authorities with "The Queensland Government will offers to contribute in one way or another legislate to prevent conditional rezoning in return for support for town planning deals between councils and developers. amendments. "The Local Government Minister, Mr. Hinze, today foreshadowed in State The talk of buying a rezoning is perhaps Parliament amendments to :the Local a little strong, but at the same t'ime it is not Government Act to prevent conditional unreasonable for people to come to that agreements between councils and devel conclusion. Many contributions are made on opers on applications for the rezoning of some very doubtful grounds. Although land." amendments will be needed to the Act to control this sort of thing, it bears repeating Mr. Hinze: Isn't that what you were just that the Minister has the final say on any asking for? town planning amendments. If he believes that the grounds on which the local author,ity concerned is making the recommendations Mr. SHAW: No, it is not, because the are wrong, it is his prerogative to reject the Minister is saying there that the Govern application. If he agrees with a proposed ment is going to forbid any sort of agree amendment, quite obviously he agrees with ment between developers and the local the reasons advanced by the local auth01.1ity authorities concerned. He knows that the for the amendment. effect of that will be to freeze a great deal of development and, in fact, strangle the In the past the Minister has quite strongly advancement and development of many supported the concept of horse-trading, trad areas. It will prevent developers from ing, or whatever one likes to call it between making a quite legitimate offer. applicants for town planning amendments and the local authorities themselves. One Mr. Hinze: Who is going to be the cannot help wondering whether the reason authority to decide whether it is legitimate this offer has created so much interest is or otherwise? that the magical figure of $1,000,000 was mentioned. One wonders whether, if such a large sum had not been involved, the matter Mr. SHAW: The suggestion has been would have attracted the same sort of made that some sort of tribunal could be interest. I have been concerned for some set up, and I think that has merit. considerable time about what happens to the small businessman who makes an application Mr. Hinze: That is just passing the buck, for the establishment of his business which and you know it. requires a town planning amendment or even the consent of the relevant local authority. Mr. SHAW: In the present situation, the He is being asked to make a contribution to Minister is in effect making the decision the local authority before his application himself, and I thought he would agree that receives favourable consideration. Many small it is not desirable that one person be put business people are not in a position to make in that position. I should not like to be large contributions. put in such a position, and I sympathise with the Minister although on many occasions I Mr. Hinze: You should have thought about have not agreed with his decisions. that when you were on the council. The problem arises that, if the Govern Mr. SHAW: I opposed it when I was on ment goes to that extreme and says, "There the council. I will be the first to admit that is going to be no sort of agreement", it the Brisbane Oity Council has erred in this must accept that a developer will have to respect, just as every other local authority wait until the local authority concerned is has done. That does not make it right. in a position to provide the services even though the developer may be in a position I have seen many instances in which to provide them at very little cost. In fact, people who have made applications have that will discourage developers at a time been asked to make contributions equal to, when they should be given encouragement. or even higher than, the cost of the develop In my opinion, there is a great need to ment that they wish to carry out. That is retain flexibility and to allow councils and 2496 Local Government Act and [11 DECEMBER 1979] Another Act Amendment Bill applicants to overcome problems by agree An earlier speaker referred to a s:tudy ment. I believe sincerdy that that can conducted by Dr. Pearn. One of the points happen, but the opportunity must be pro made by him was that it did not matter vided for a little bit of common sense to how minor the regulations were, any sort be used. Another statement made by the of regulation was an improvement. Any Minister had some merit. The report in the break in the chain of events that could "Telegraph" later said- lead to a child's drowning is an advantage. "As Minister for Local Government I So it would have been advantageous if even am more than a little disturbed at con part of the city council's ordinances had tinuing suggestions that local authorities been acc~ted. However, because of the are obtaining contributions towards work lobbying on the part of the sw:imming~pool and or projects which have no relation manufacturers and salesmen, who were whatsoever to the actual development frightened that their sales would be affected, applications proposed." the council's application was rejected. The manufacturers' fears were quite groundless. I have raised that matter in this Chamber Many have claimed that their sales were before. It seems reasonable to expect that affected during the period that the proposed when a developer comes forward with a ordinances were under discussion and that project that is going to impose additional their implementation would have resul~ed costs on the community, he should be .in a downturn in sales. expected to meet those costs. I think that is what the Minister is suggesting there. Government members have referred to the ,tremendous number of objections lodged Mr. Hinze: Reasonable costs. against the proposed s,w.imming-po_ol ordin ances. 1t is interesting to examme those Mr. SHAW: No, the costs that he is objections. In fact, 2,974 objections were creating. It certainly is unreasonable to lodged. Objecrtions lodged by as many as expect him to meet costs that bear no four persons in one household could be relationship to the project that he is putting regarded as a single objection. For ex~mple, forward. There should be an opportunity a father, his wife, his daughter and his son fo~ t?e developer to perhaps overcome lodged objections, and they were counted obJectiOns that may be raised as a result as four objections. of his advertising of the project. Under the Act, the . Minister ~as insisted that people Of the total number received, 1,116 were haye a nght to . object. Surely, then, it is on forms that had been handed out by fair. enough to give the developer an oppor people in the swimmin~"pool lobby. Many tu:uty to make a contribution or do some object,ions were to pomts that were not thmg to overcome objections that are raised. included in the ordinances. In fact, only I hope that any amendments that are intro 200 people went along and asked to look duced will not lead to applications becoming at the ordinances. Contrast that number bogged down, as has happened in the past. :with that of the o:bjectors~nearly 3,000. I hope that they will not lengthen the time Approximatdy 300 copies of the ordinances !n which applications are dealt with. What were distdbuted beforehand. Is n~eded is a speeding up of the process of d~lmg with applications. I hope that that 1t is interesting to note how few objectors will come to pass. took notice of what it was they were objecting to. Of the total number o:f Turni~g to _the ~e?cing of swimming-pools objectors, 1,535 objected beeause the council -I believe m giVIng credit where it is did not require Moreton Bay to be fenced du~, but I also believe that the Government's as well. Apparently that was a leg~timate attitude has been totally disgraceful. We reason for rejecting the proposed ordmance. have been accused of being emotional in In all, 1,757 people objected b~c~use access t?is matter. It is a faot, however, that to the pool from a habitable bmldmg had to liv~s. have bee? !os't btocause of playing be by way of a gate. That wa~ not a politics over this Issue. The Minister has legitimate objection. Many o!her thm~s that s~id t?at loc~l authorities have complete they objected to were n?t mcll!ded m the discretiOn to mtroduce by"laws relating to proposed ordinances. Obv.wusly, If t~ere ~as the fencing of s,wimming.,pools. However, to be a fence, a gate would be reqmred, JUSt that is not so. as with a house there has to be a door. It is interesting that 1,352 people objected to The Brisbane City Oouncil attempted to the provision requiring registration of pools. introduce by-laws governing the fencing of That could quite easily have been dropl?ed swimming-pools. Its move was blocked by out of the ordinances without worrymg the Government on political grounds--QJer people in one way or another. haps not on party-political grounds but on political grounds nevertheless. At the same A further 179 people objected to the time as the Brisbane City Council's applica ordinance requiring instructions to be kept tion was refused, a,pplications by other local on the property in relation to resuscitation authorities to bring down similar by-laws and life-saving procedures. I do not know were accepted. how anybody could accept that as a legitimate Local Government Act and [11 DECEMBER 1979] Another Act Amendment Bill 2497 objection. I believe i.t was an entirely reason Mr. AKERS (Pine Rivers) (11.11 p.m.): able provision. It is part of what everybody Local authorities were established originally believes should be included in educating to fund, build and maintain roads, and little people in the sav.ing of lives. more. Therefore, rates that were based on It is particularly interesting that 275 people land values were a reasonable method of objected to the right of inspectors to enter meeting those costs, because the condition properties. The exact provision was approved of a road in front of a property and the by Parliament recently for members of the roads giving access to it have a large bear Builders' Registration Board, yet the Govern ing on the value of the land. ment rejected a similar requirement in local Since then, local authorities have taken authority ordinances. unto themselves many other responsibilities, On the matter of penalties to be incurred, such as libraries, immunisation, swimming 1,241 objected on the basis that no penalty pools, child care centres, sporting fields, should be incurred if people did not obey senior citizens' centres and social workers. the ordinances. What is the use of having an The costs of all of those responsibilities are ordinance if there is no penalty for people met by local authorities. Land rates, based who do not comply with it? I could cite on property values, bear no relationship to dozens of things in similar vein, but finally those services. I point out that 94 people objected because they said the ordinances were discriminatory Also since that time, the State Govern in that they dealt only with swimming-pool ment has systematically loaded onto local owners. That objection could be raised authorities additional costs which, again, against any ordinance or regulation. Driving are unrelated to land values. The added regulations apply only to people who drive costs have resulted from the imposition of motor vehicles. Irrespective of the type of fire brigade levies and the administration of ordinance or regulation, it could be said that the Liquor Act, the standard water supply it was discriminatory. Almost invariably all and sewerage by-laws, the Noise Abatement the other objections could be considered Act, the Children's Services Act amendment irrelevant because people were not objecting which was dealt with today, the Health Act, to matters that were covered by the pro under which local authorities administer cafes posals. and rubbish tips, the water board that was established earlier this year, the Canals Act, Negotiations should take place between the the Building Act, the Clean Air Act, the parties to get some sort of control over the Clean Waters Act, the Picture Theatres and situat,ion that led to the lord mayor's requir Films Act and the Beach Protection Act. ing the ordinances to be introduced. People They are but a few of the Acts of this with in-ground swimming-pools within 6 feet Parliament that have imposed additional costs of the front fence alignment have refused on local authorities. As well, limited addi to take any precautions or erect a fence. At tional costs result from administering the night-time, any person who strays 6 f.t. Factories and Shops Act, the Hawkers and from the footpath could fall into such a pool. Pedlers Act, the State Counter-Disaster Act In the circumstances it is entirely proper to and many others. Since the original estab require safety precautions. lishment of local authorities, they have had In one instance a pool on a 16-perch allot to contribute quite large proportions of the ment was only 5 ft. from the foot of the cost of main roads. All of these things are stairs of the adjoining house. The people not related to property values. It matters owning the adjoining property had four nothing at all to the property values, there children of pre-school age. They offered to fore, whether the Noise Abatement Act, the erect a fence at their own expense to protect Beach Protection Act or any of the other their children, but the owners of the swim Acts I mentioned are administered. ming-pool would not agree to it. Their only resort \vas the Dividing Fences Act, which Tonight we are talking of adding sub did not give sufficient protection. stantially to the cost of local authorities by If the Government accepts that there their contributing towards the maintenance should be no protection or fence between of railways. That is totally outside the scope a house and a pool, or that there should be of local authorities. It is something they no self-closing doors, as suggested by the should have nothing to do with. I am council, opening onto the pool-and at no totally opposed to this proposal that local time did the Brisbane City Council suggest authorities should be required, or consider that there should be a fence between the themselves able, to contribute towards the house and the pool-only 50 per cent of cost of building and maintaining railways. fatalities in swimming-pools will be averted If the Bill has been introduced because because half of the fatalities involve the Redland Shire Council wants to con people living on the property or those tribute towards a railway line and bring legitimately on the property. If the decision it forward, I am not happy with it. How is to be made by the Government fair ever, if that is the reason, the Redland enough, but it should be made with 'a full Shire Council should be the council men appreciation of the fact that only half of the problem will be solved. tioned. The Bill should not refer to all local authorities. It should be enabling legis (T,ime expired.) lation rather than something general that 2498 Local Government Act and [11 DECEMBER 1979] Another Act Amendment Bill will place a load on every local authority railway line was closed-"and if you don't that is located near a railway line. They put some money in, we will have to stop will all have pressure put on them by their operating the line."? Having spent $3,000,000 ratepayers or the Government before they of the ratepayers' money-I think against can get a railway line into their area. It the wishes of the majority of ratepayers in should not be even considered that local the area-the council will find itself throwing authorities have anything to do with rail good money after bad just to keep the line way lines. I urge the Minister to have going. another look at the Bill before the second On 20 November there was a newspaper reading, which will probably be tomorrow. report of an attack on the council over its He should look at the cost involved in other rating policies. It was reported that th~ R.ed local authorities having to deal with this land Shire Council is one of the stmg~est proposal. When this proposal is added to in Queensland with pensioners. The article all the others I have mentioned, a tremen stated that most councils gave pensioners dous load is imposed on the ratepayers. Cer 50 per cent rate discounts but that the tainly, before any future legislation that Redland Shire gave only a token discount. affects local authorities is introduced into The article continued- this Assembly, I ask the Minister and the Government to look at the cost to the local "Redland Shire Council Chairman, Mr authorities. E. G. W. Wood, said the council could not afford to give pensioners in Redland I have just one further point on the shire a bigger rates concession. proposal to take away from local authorities " '\Ve have to think of the young people the right to control garbage removal. Many with mortgages, desperately trying to pay smaller local authorities cannot obtain the off their homes.' services of a garbage collector unless they "Redland Shire Council had a $750,000 are able to offer him what is virtually a deficit this year, he said." monopoly on garbage collection in the area. If the proposed amendment is proceeded The council has a deficit of $750,000, and with, they will be left in the lurch or will yet it is lining up to pay $1,000,000 a year have to go to court and waste ratepayers' for the next three vears towards the cost money. Some way must be found before of a railway line tha·t will go into only one toworrow morning to reword that provision corner of the shire. A large number of the in order to allow local authorities to function residents will have to travel a long way to properly. get to the station. A lot of ratepayers on the islands will have to travel across the I am not talking about the Brisbane, bay and then by bus to get to the station. Gold Coast or Rockhampton local authorities It will be inconvenient for a large number that have been mentioned; I am talking of people. The residents of the area are about the smaller authorities that do not becoming concerned about a number of other have a large population creating a large matters. The Minister suggested tonight that volume of rubbish to be taken away and one of the reasons why we should accept thereby providing the incentive for someone this proposal is that it was put forward by to take on the job if someone else can the honourable member for Redland and come in and take away half his profit, which the council. I think that the honourable will be minimal anyway. So I urge the member and the shire council should have Minister to either withdraw the Bill or a look at a number of other proposals that have a good look at rewording that provision they have put forward. before toworrow morning. I refer to the Raby Bay canal develop ment. Over 3,000 people signed a petition Mr. BURNS (Lytton) (11.16 p.m.): It is opposing the proposal, which the honourable pleasing to see that the Government is member presented to this Parliament. Last interested in the proposal put forward by night 200 people attended a public meeting the honourable member for Port Curtis that -that was the second; the first was attended this unacceptable Bill be amended to speci by over 100 people-and they attacked both fically spell out the Redland Shire Council the honourable member for Redlands and as far as the railway proposal is concerned. I the Minister for Maritime Services and am concerned about it, too, because I Tourism. think it is the thin end of the wedge. As soon as councils start to accept Let us have a look at the Raby Bay responsibility for railway development, proposal. Tenders were first called in the next thing the Government will December 1968 and they closed in February be saying is, "If you want a railway 1969. Three tenders were received, and development, look what the Redland Shire Civic Projects Pty. Ltd. was selected in did. That is why the Government accepted the April 1969. Civic Projects Pty. Ltd. was proposal. The proposal is there. You better Arthur Stephens's company. He was the start to put some money in." What will hap fellow who developed the City Square. I pen to the Redland Shire Council and the can remember seeing the late Arthur residents of the shire if, after a while, the Stephens, together with the Minister for Government says, "Look, it is too costly Local Government and the honourable mem to operate''-just as occurred when the old ber for Redlands, on the veranda outside Local Government Act and [11 DECEMBER 1979] Another Act Amendment Bill 2499 my office when I was Opposition Leader. One of the promoters of the Raby Bay They were standing at the tables looking plan was the Citizens' Municipal Organisa at some maps. I thought then that Raby tion Lord Mayoral candidate in those days, Bay might be coming up. The people of a fellow by the name of Jamieson. Has the area have asked the council for the anyrbody ever heard of him again? He new environmental study on a number of went along with the development at that occasions, because since 1969, when Arthur time. The people in the area want an Stephens's company got the go ahead from updated environmental statement. They the Government, a lot of things have want to know why the Government has not happened. carried out the provisions of its own laws, and they want to know why the council, On 12 November 1979, on behalf of the as the re~ponsible authority, has not carl'ied Government and as a result of a Cabinet out the provision that calls for an environ meeting held at Springsure, the Minister mental impact &tatement. for Lands, Forestry and Water Resources issued a Press statement saying that Civic I have a letter from the Department of Projects Pty. Ltd. had been given the 11ight Ha11bours and Marine dated 18 October to reclaim 210ha of land which would 1979, only six weeks ago. It was signed prov,ide 1,055 building lots, including 788 by J. Leech, the director, and related to with canal frontages and 100 on the fore the Ralby Bay development proposal. It shore-that is, 888 waterfront blocks-and stated- some for medium density housing. That "! refer to your letter dated September proposal has come out of what hawened 18, 1979 in connection with a proposal in 1968-69. The people in the area have to develop the foreshores of Raby Bay asked for an updating of the 1973 as a residential estate. The answers to report of the consulting engineers, your queries raised in your letter are as Cardno & Davies Australia Pty. Ltd. follows:- The fishermen in the area have tried to dmw attention to the depletion of the 1(1) Civil Projects :Rty. Ltd., have not mangroves in bayside areas. Mangrove areas submitted an application for provisional will also be destroyed with the construction approval of the proposed canal estate; of the new airport and the new port of {2 to 5) Since there has been _no Brisbane at Fisherman Islands. Now the app1ic:a:tion submitted to the Manne mangroves in Raby Bay are also to be Board, there has been no decision taken destroyed. on whether or not an impact assess ment study is necessary." The Rruby Bay development will be of massive proportions, right across the centre So six weeks ago, on 18 October 1979, the of the Bay area there. The people in the Department of Harbours and Marb:e wr?te area are not in favour of it. It was ,to say that it had not made up Its mmd originally stated that 1,000 people wrote on whether an env.ronmental impact state letters in support, but then it was stated that ment on a pro,posed development to rec1aim 1,000 people paid the money for the letters in 210 ha of land to provide 1,050 building support of this development. I don't believe blocks-788 of them canal developments either story. This comes back to exactly was necessary. The C.S.,I.R.O., local fisher what the member for Cooroora was men and others have all said that the talking about-the council has not destruct,ion of the marine breeding grounds asked the local people what they want and in that area will have a major effect on has not carried out the polls on high-rise Moreton Bay itse]f. It seems to me that development that he was suggesting. The the council should have demanded such an council has not taken the people into account. environmental impact statement. It is As each day goes by, the people in the unreasonable for the Minister to suggest to area are becoming more and more concerned us that we should take advice from the as the RedLand Shire Council goes against Redland Shire Council on behalf of the their wishes. ratepayers in the area. Councillor Wood saw the writing on the wall before the last election. He knew he Mr. Warburton: There S'hou1d be public was to be opposed down there and that pa])t,ioipat,ion. all the people in the shire would have a vote. He got the Government to change Mr. BURNS: Of course there should be the rules so that he would be elected as public participation. chairman by, and from within, the council itself. He only just scraped in in his own 'The honourable member for Cooroora area. By manipulation of the boundaries tonight demanded public participation in in the area, the councillors concerned were relation to high-rise development. Let us able to gain control of the council again. consider two high-rise developments. What It has been a National Party council for rubout the proposed high-rise development years. The council itself returned CoundUor in the Broadwater, the proposal that Mr. Wood as chairman. He would not have Williams is floating around on behaLf of the gained that position if he had had to rely Gold Coast Wate~ways Authority? The on the support of the public. second part of the proposed amendment to 2500 Local Government Act, &., Bill [11 DECEMBER 1979] Norwich Park-German Creek Mine Rly. the Act might mean that if some of that might suggest it. The Brisbane City Council reclamation is on Crown land, the local might be told that a bit of railway should be authority might have some town planning built from Lota to the border of the Redland control over it. Shire or that we should participate in the cost of running the railway down to the People are becoming concerned at this area there. Government's wilful destruction of many of the remaining areas of the Gold Coast that It must be remembered that the Cleveland are used as playgrounds by people who want line was pulled up by this Government. When to go fishing and to enjoy themselves there we opposed the closure of the lines to Cleve and who do not think that a high-rise area land and the Gold Coast, we were told that is the only place to holiday. we were out of date, that the population would not grow there and that the services For those who are not surfers or high were not necessary. The Government has been rise fans, the Broadwarter and Currumbin proved wrong on that and it will be proved Creek are two areas that should be kept wrong on Raby Bay, the Broadwater develop aside. I heard the Minister announce a ment and Currumbin Creek as well. $112,000,000 development scheme for Cur rumhin Creek. The local authority must be involved; but, more than that, notke must Hon. R. J. HINZE (South Coast-Minis be taken of the complaints and representa ter for Lo,cal Government and Ma1n Roads) ·tions of people in the area. A 16~storey (11.29 p.m.), in reply: I thank all honour development for Currumbin Greek is being able members for their .contributions to the proposed by the tenderer and lauded .proposed amendments to .the Local Authority by the Minister. It is a development Act. In order to save time this evening, I that will provide another 750 housing blocks will reply to these speakers point by point and motel/.boatel developments. at the second-reading stage. I wonder whether the Minister and ot•her Motion (Mr. Hinze) agreed to. me.rnbeors of the Government might say to Resolution reported. themselves sometimes that not all develop ment •is progress. Some people desire to keep areas on the Gold Coast and, as the FIRST READING member for Cooroora was saying, the Sun shine Coast unspoiled. If we have only Bill presented and, on •the motion of Mr. high-rise development and surf, the Yanks Hinze, read a first time. wiJI go to Hawaii, Miami and otheor places that are closer to home and •cheaper to get rto. We have our own natural beauty spots. Our beaches are lfar better than any I have NORWICH PARK-GERMAN CREEK seen around the rworld. We should be MINE RAILWAY demanding that they be reta•ined, not destroyed. It is impmtant that, before any IKITIATION development is undertaken a:t Currumbin Hon. K. B. TOMKINS (Roma-Minister Creek and before any promises are made for Transport): I move- about any of the ~our tenders, the pwple of ·the area be consulted. "That Mr. Speaker do now leave ihe chair and the House resolve itself into a I have read that some Gold Coast alder Committee of the Whole to consider the men have been able to see the proposal put following resolution- by Williams and his group for the Broad 'That the House approves of plans, water. There should be full participation in sections and book of reference of the the schemes involving Currumbin Creek, proposed section of railway from the Broadwater and R:aby Bay. I suggest Norwich Park to German Creek mine.' " 1thaJt 1the Raby Bay development should be cast out the door. We should sta·r·t again Motion agreed to. and rethink the matter before we put any pmposal before this Padi·ament to make the ratepayers of the Redland Shire Council pay COMMITTEE for Councillor Wood's grandiose scheme. (Mr. Miller, Ithaca, in the chair) 'I agree with the honourable memlber for Port Cu11tis, who said .that if the Redland Hon. K. B. TOMKINS (Roma-Minister Shire Council wants a rai1way and is pre for Transport) (11.31 p.m.): I move- pared to tie its ratepayers to it, oit should be "That the House approves of plans, spelit out in the Act that it is a Redland sections and book of reference of the railway scheme and that the Redland Shire proposed section of railway from Norwich is the only council that applied. If another Park to German Creek mine." council applies and wants to tie its rate payers to such a scheme, there should be The proposed railway will be constructed enabling legislation to encompass 1hat to meet the requirements of Capricorn Coal council. However, it is dangerous to leave Management Pty. Ltd., whioh will seek to ~t in such a way 4hat some other council mine coal from an area known as the Norwich Park-German [11 DECEMBER 1979] Creek Mine Railway 2501 German Creek mine. The company has a 272 wagons, and two locotrol radio control mining lease covering the coal deposits and units, will cost an estimated $22,200,000. over a 15-year period plans to extract 29 000 000 tonnes of coal by open-cut mining My Commissioner for Railways advises and a further 19 000 000 tonnes by the me that additional revenue, based on the underground-mining method. It proposes to haulage of 3 250 000 tonnes of coal a year transport the coal by rail from the mine to from the new mine to Hay Point, will be the port of Hay Point. To gain access to the approximately $30,000,000 a year. However, existing railway from Norwich Park to Hay this will vary as a result of escalation Point, the company proposes that a new components of the freight rate. railway 28 km in length be constructed from Working expenses have been calculated as German Creek mine to Norwich Park. they apply to the new section of railway Honourable members will recall that on between German Creek and Norwich Park 3 April this year, the House approved work and, on the anticipated annual haulage figure ing plans, sections and book of reference of 3 250 000 tonnes of coal, the estimated figure is $950,000 per annum. for a proposed railway between Norwich Park and Oaky Creek mine. However, in I remind honourable members that the June this year Houston Oil and Minerals of provision of the rail facilities outlined here Australia Inc. decided not to proceed with is necessary for the successful extraction and the rail and port facilities at this time. Sub export of the coal deposits at German Creek sequently, Capricorn Coal Management Pty. mine. In recommending construction of this Ltd. decided in October to proceed immedi railway connecting the mine to Norwich ately with construction of the German Creek Park, I emphasise the avantages to the coking-coal project. This requires the spur State by way of considerable financial return ~nd . employment oppol'tunities, particularly line from Norwich Park to the 130-km m view of the fact that the railway and mark on the original Oaky Creek line to rolling-stock are to be financed ·by the be built to meet the requirements of company at no risk to the State. Capricorn Coal Management Pty. Ltd., and not Houston Oil and Minerals of Australia Inc., as originally envisaged. Mr. DAVIS (Brisbane Central) (11.36 p.m.): I cannot help being amazed at the In simple terms, the proposed line from way in which this Government works. As Norwich Park to the 130-km mark is a ~!ways, the Australian Labor Party believes 21.5-km section of the 46-km line from m progress, so we shall certainly not be Oaky Creek to Norwich Park approved by opposing the motion. the House in April last. The only difference is that the line from Norwich Park to The Opposition is quite happy to discuss German Creek will be constructed for a this project and would be quite happy to different company. In addition, a further discuss some of the other projects announced section of 6.5 km of line will be required to over the past few weeks by the Minister connect the German Creek mine with the and the Premier. 130-km point on the proposed Norwich Recently I asked the Minister- Park-Oaky Creek line. "\Vith reference to his recent announce The company will lodge a security deposit ment about the findings in the consultants' for the haulage of minimum tonnages, and report of the feasibility studies of the this will be available for use by the commis electrification of the Central Queensland sioner in constructing the new railway and coalfields, Brisbane-'Gladstone, Brisbane acquiring rolling-stock, together with Toowomba, and the rebuilding of the upgrading work that is required on the Gold Coast line to Brisbane- existing railway between Hay Point and (!) Who were the consultants engaged Norwich Park. An agreement between the for these studies?" commissioner and the company is being prepared, covering the haulage of German The Minister's answer was- Creek coal to Hay Point at the rate of up "The main line electrification study was to 3 250 000 tonnes per annum. undertaken by P. G. Pak-Poy and Asso The proposed new line will start at ciates Pty. Ltd. in association with Norwich Park, cross the Booroondoora Road R. I. Banks and Associates Inc.," by means of a bridge, skirt the Norwich Park mine area and then cross Raper Creek. and so on. It will then run south parallel with the The final cost of the electdfication is German Creek mine boundary, culminating estimated at more than half a million dollars. in a balloon loop at the mine. Three bridges The estimat..:d final cost af the Gold Coast and some 40 culverts will be constructed, section is $120,000. and it will be necessary to resume 130 ha of land. The estimated cost of the new line, I also asked when the Minister would including resumptions, surveys and engin release the documents so that all honourable eering, is $11,000,000. Rolling-stock, members could see them. The Minister including eleven diesel-electric locomotives, answered that they would not be released. 2502 Norwich Park-German [11 DECEMBER 1979] Creek Mine Railway That is in spite of the fact that the Govern Mr. DAVIS: I am just saying that if we ment spends a huge sum of money on were discussing a standard line for this section obtaining consultants' reports. Liberal we could discuss the Premier's pipe-dream members claim in front of the T.V. cameras about a railway line. I should like the that they are looking after the electors. Why Minister for Transport to say where he don't they force the Government to place stands on the Premier's pipe-dream-the these expensive documents before the Parlia ridiculous scheme he propounds time and time ment so that all honourable members can again with his Western Australian cohort discuss them? about a North Australian line. I would rather the Premier allocate money to upgrade I want to know why the construction existing lines. We have a farce of a line of the Goid Coast line is not going ahead. between Brisbane and Rockhampton and The only report we have received is from Rockhampton to Cairns. Nowhere on our the honourable member for Surfers Paradise, continent is there such a poor passenger ser who kindly leaked it to "The Sunday Mail". vice that takes 14 hours to do a 712 km The rest of us obtain more information from run. "The Sundav Mail" than we can obtain from this Government and this Minister. As I said, because we are a progressive party, we support any extension of the rail I would like to know why the Government way system, but I would like the Minister is not going ahead with the electrification to provide answers to the questions I have of the line between Brisbane and Gladstone. raised. Recently the honourable member for Chats worth and I made a trip on the "Sunlander" and the "Capricornian". Mr. AUSTIN (Wavell) (11.44 p.m.): The motion before the Committee is in these I am sure that my colleague the hon terms- ourable member for Gladstone will agree "That the House approves of plans, sec with me that before we decide on electri tions and book of reference of the pro fication we must at least upgrade the line posed section of railway from Norwich between Brisbane and Gladstone. Fancy the Park to German Creek mine." journey of 712 km from Rockhampton to Brisbane taking 14 hours! That gives an According to the Minister, the extension of average of about 45 km an hour. the rail link will mean that an additional 29 000 000 tonnes of coal will pass through Hay Point. It is worth pointing out that The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. before we consider the motion as such we Miller): Order! I remind the honourable should consider the facilities at Hay Point, member that we are talking about the rail because the two matters are connected. Of way section from Norwich Park to German necessity the Committee should decide Creek mine. whether the facilities at Hay point are cap able of handling the additional 20 000 000 Mr. DAVIS: I am proceeding towards tonnes of coal that the Minister is proposing Gladstone, and I will be coming to that sec to carry on this section of line. tion. I would be unwise if I did not empha sise that we averaged 45 km an hour on The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! that trip. Instead of the train being called I cannot allow the honourable member to the Capricornia, it should be known as the develop that theme. Flying Snail. When dealing with this railway proposal Mr. AUSTIN: The motion reads, "That we should ask when the electrification plans the House approves of plans". will be formulated for this new section. Reference has been made to a $500,000 The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Of that feasibility study into electrifying the coal proposed section of milway. lines, but we have not been given any details. The Minister may be good enough to tell us when we can expect electrification Mr. AUSTIN: It will mean that an addi of this section of line at a cost of $11,000,000. tional 29 000 000 tonnes of coal will go through Hay Point and consideration-- Former Labor spokesmen said constantly that we missed out on a great opportunity with all our coal-lines in that from the The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! word go we did not insist on their being I do not intend to have a running argument standard-gauge lines. It is unfortunate that with the honourable member for Wavell. I we are not discussing standard gauge for have said that he will not pursue that course. the proposed section. If we were discussing I ask him to come back to the matter before standard gauge for this section we could the Committee. also discuss the Premier's proposed rail link-- Mr. AUSTIN: With due respect, Mr. Miller the Committee cannot possibly con The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! sider 'the motion unless it considers where Norwich Park-German [11 DECEMBER 1979] Creek Mine Railway 2503 the coal will go. Of necessity, if some railway working expenses are involved in the haul line is to be constructed, we must consider between Norwich Park and Hay Point. That what will happen at the end of that line. is stated here in the certificate. There is also the amortisation of capital necessary for the construction of the new railway, the purchase The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! of rolling-stock and the upgrading of the I shall ask the honourable member to resume railway from Norwich Park to Hay Point. It his seat if he does not discuss the proposed will be necessary to upgrade that line-- section of railway from Norwich Park to German Creek mine. Mr. AUSTIN: I rise to a .point of order. I specifically mentioned 1the Minister's Mr. AUSTIN: That is exactly what I am reference to Hay Point, Mr. 'MiHer, and you discussing. I shall say it again for the benefit sat me down. I say that the honourable of the Committee. The motion reads, "That member is now out of order. the House approves of plans". If that section of line is not approved, the coal will not reach Hay Point. The rail line ought to be The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. built somewhere else. Does that claf'ify it? Miller): Order! There is no point of otder. Am I in order in suggesting that, Mr. Miller? As I understand it, Hay Point is already Mr. CASEY: Boys in small pools! overloaded and the Government ought to be looking at Port Clinton. The !pOint is that there 'is a need for the upgrading of this railway ,Jine through to Hay Point in order to cater for the addi The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! tional waJ that will come from the German The honourable member will resume his seat. Creek mine. There is a specific need for the extension of several of the sidings along the Mr. CASEY (Mackay-Leader of the line, the inclusion of additional sidings ·and Opposition) (11.47 p.m.): I am interested in passing points and the duplication in some this proposal mainly because the coal comes re!>peots of the 1oop area at Hay Point itself to Hay Point, which is close to my area. where the coal will be dischatged. Although it has been said that 29 000 000 tonnes will It is important that the Committee consider be eXJported from Hay Poin:t, the fact is certain aspects of the proposal. The Minister !'hat the new mine will provide .only an referred to them in April this year when a addi:tional 2 000 000 or 3 000 000 tonnes, bwt similar matter was dealt with concerning the this additional amount will take up the full working plans for the Houston Oil & Minerals capacity of the existing Hay Point facility. mine at Oaky Creek. On this occasion we Consequently, when the Norwich Park mine are dealing with the German Creek mine. comes fuUy on line 'at ·the end of this yearr, It was originally proposed that the line go there will be a need to duplicate the Hay to Oaky Creek mine with a spur line from Point terminal. there to German Creek mine. One of the mining projects has since collapsed. Houston If German Creek uses its capacity on this Oil & Minerals was unable to secure con new line, ·what will be the situation if the tracts to enable it to mine and export the Oaky Creek development .comes !back on coal. line? The Minister did not properly explain this point and I would like him to clarify 1it. Every second week we see in ·the news Will ]t merely be a short spur line coming papers the Government stating that it has into this prroposed line, or will we be another $3,000,000 or $6,000,000 project that required 'to refer back to the orig1nal work is likely to go ahead. The Government makes ·ing plans that were approved to run ·the these announcements. Most people in Bris line through from Norwich Park to Oaky bane seem to think that the Bowen Basin Creek? This is very important. in Central Queensland is dotted with mines. That false impression has been gained by As I have stated, there are two other many people. Such is not the case. Only proposals in the 1a·rea. C.R.A. has an auth one major mining group operates in the area, ority to prospect ·in the very same area, and and that is Central Queensland Coal Asso if ·it proceeds to production it will 'be ciates, of which Utah is the major share required to use the line that we are dis holder. It operates the Norwich Park, Peak cussing here tonight. There 'is also a sug Downs, Saraji and Goonyella mines. It is the gestion that C.R.A. is considering a steam extension of that railway line that we are .jng-ooal projeCit at Blak Athol. It has !been discussing. sugges,ted in one of the pmnouncements made by the Government over a period that One of the points that the honourable the wal ~mm the Blair A:thol mine will be member for Wavell was trying to make transpatted down through Capella ont'O :this because of his inexperience in Parliament he line, then hooked up with the Norwich Park was not able to put it properly-was that line in the normal way. That would be this matter relates to the book of reference absolutely wasteful. I believe that the Blair that was tabled in Parliament. In addition Athol mine must !be ·treated separately. to the actual working expenses involved in building the new railway line section between When we look at the working plans and Norwich Park and the German Creek mine, drawings of this line, .we should !be taking 2504 Norwich Park-German [11 DECEMBER 1979] Creek Mine Railway into considemtion only the coal coming three engines at the front and three in the from the CapriJcomia Coal Management Pty. centre, and operated by the Locotrol. Those Ltd. mine at German Creek, and eventually trains will be very long indeed. the coal from the Oaky Creek mine of Houston Oil and Minerals. If members know the topography of the area, -they will The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! realise that Oaky Creek is not far south of The motion before the Chamber is that the German Cr·eek. They will also realise that House approve the plans, section and book coal from the other B.H.P. mine to be of reference of the proposed railway between opened at Gregory will be transported in Norwich Park and the German Creek mine. the opposite direction and exported from the I do not intend to allow anybody to digress port of Gladstone. We are therefore reach from that. ing the situation where lines are operating up to capacity, and we must take this into Mr. CASEY: Mr. Miller, I fully agree .consideration when considering the 'Construc with you. If you look at page 2 of the tion of new lines. working report the reference to rolling-stock I ask the Minister to give me that infor is in the second and third last paragraphs mation in his reply. I would also urge the of that page. In his speech the Minister Mini~ter, when 'cons·idering the constmotion referred to the rolling-stock that will be neces of the Blair Athol mine, to ensure ,that it sary on the line, and they are part of the goes further north and joins the existing proposal that this Parliament will be required line somewhere near Goonyella. to vote on this evening. There is no point in having a railway line without rolling-stock. The Minister said there would be 11 diesel The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! electric locomotives, 272 wagons and two I have allowed the honourable member to Locotrol radio-control units at an estimated develop his argument a little more widely cost of $22,200,000. That is exactly the than I wanted. I ask him now to come back point I was making a moment ago. to the Norwich Park and Oaky Creek line. The Locotrol trains have a capacity of Mr. CASEY: I have not diverted f,rom something like 8 500 tonnes of coal. If one looks at the second last paragraph of page this line in any ife~pect whaJtever. I know the topography of the country very 'well. If 2 of the working report, it refers to the the other devdopments referred to by the need for the upgrading of the railway line. Government are fa!otual, a 1ine cons:truoted I make the point that the upgrading has in the fo11m present•ed here tonight will be to be achieved with the addition of passing found to be totally inadequate. I am speak loops. The line is now reaching capacity. ing only of the pronouncements which come There are no problems from Norwich Park to forwaTd f11om time to time from Government Saraji or from Saraji to Peak Downs. How Minister's. In faot, the Minister for Mines, ever, once the line gets to Coppabella where Energy and Police makes statements so often there is the junction with the Goonyella line, that he is known around the countryside as it reaches absolute capacity. The capacity "Rerun Ronnie"-he keeps announcing of the Goonyella to Hay Point seotion of these things like old television reruns. In the line is such that, as I have mentioned fact, his weekly broadcast on radio 4MK in here, it will not be able to handle the Maokay has been nick-named by local additional trains. Consequently those addi people "The Forsyth Saga", as he repeats tional passing loops will be needed to upgrade these things so of,ten. Those are the sorts the line, as is referred to in this report. of things we are get·ring from time to time. With the addition of Blair Athol and these We are told of all these developments tha·t other places the situation will only get worse. are occurring and what will come about. Until such time as the line is duplicated With due deference to the member for over that section and the duplication of Wavell, although he was on the right track the Hay Point facilities occurs, projects will in what he was going to say, neither our not go ahead in the immediate future ports nor our railway lines have the capacity projects such as Oaky Creek; Hale Creek, to handle these future projects. The Gov which is the CSR deposit further north; ernment should get on with the job to ensure the Nebo deposits of B.H.P.; the proposed that the line itself and the other infrastruc mining of an area near Lake Elphinstone; ture have the capacity to handle proposed and three other major mining proposals. development. The working drawings and report that the Mr. WRIGHT (Rockhampton) (11.59 p.m.): Opposition has certainly indicate the need As do all Central Queenslanders, I welcome for passing loops all the way to Hay Point. the continued expansion of the coal industry That addition should be made now, because in that part of the State. Overseas interests the line has only a certain capacity with are often criticised for successful exploitation the existing passing loops. I cannot remem of our coal deposits. If we hark back to ber the exact number of trains that it is the last five or six years we quickly realise proposed to put on the line, but the pro that but for the coal development of this posed additional trains will be trains with region the unemployment position in the Norwich Park-German [11 & 12 DECEMBER 1979] Creek Mine Railway 2505 area would be very serious. In fact, it would going to cut out the jobs of hundreds of be drastic. The development of these coal Queensland~rs. There are 3,500 persons resources has been of tremendous economic involved in the whole State, and 400 in advantage. my own region. I hope it is only rumour. I hope it It only an investigation of a One has only to look at the detailed bureaucratic suggestion; but I also hope that proposal sent to all members to realise the the Minister does not follow it through, type of economic advantage we will gain because it wil1 affect the lives of many from the expansion proposed here. In the people. Minister's remarks I note the estimated cost of $11,000,000 in the central region. The cost of rolling-stock will be $22,000,000. The anticipated revenue from the new line [Wednesday, 12 December 1979] for the transportation of 3 250 000 tonnes per year will be $30,000,000. It is big business, Hon. K. B. TOMKINS (Roma- as illustrated on pages 2 and 3 of the pro Minister for Transport) (12.4 a.m.), in reply: posal. It is certainly welcomed by Central I thank all members for taking part in Queenslanders. We are well aware of the this debate. It deals with a very important importance of the railway industry to our part of Queensland. There is no doubt in region, and the importance of the coal my mind that, as every speaker has men industry generally. tioned, the coal industry is very important. It is on that point that I seek clarification It is important to the Government to ensure of departmental policy. I ask the Minister that this expansion continues. I will certainly to listen to this. It is important and he reply to some of the matters raised tonight. might need some advice on it from his The member for Rockhampton referred officers. U has been suggested to me the dismissal of guards. I do not think there admittedly in part only by rumour-that, is anything in it. It is a very serious matter because of the continued expansion and the and I propose to make a ministerial state continued massive cost outlay by the Govern ment on it in due course. I know that we ment, consideration is being given to dispens have problems with the C.T.C. It is a ing with the use of guards in the central development that has an effect on the region. I was told only yesterday that the employment of station-masters and others. department is looking at ways to cut costs. The areas mentioned to me were Toowoomba, Mr. Wright: Apparently they are covered Gladstone, Rockhampton, Bluff and Emerald by an agreement, but a decision has to be -in fact, anywhere where there is a fast made whether the agreement covers every freight system and where the C.T.C. system new line that operates. is in vogue. It has been suggested that the cost saving m the central region could be up to $1,000,000 per week if the services Mr. TOMKINS: I am not sure about of guards were dispensed with. It is being that. I will stick to the one that I know said that guards are not needed for this something about, that is, the C.T.C., on type of expansion; that they are not required which the department has given an under because of the computerised and electrified taking that nobody will be paid off and that system. jobs will be found for displaced employees. That is being done, and I think that even While I totally support the concept the unions appreciate what the Government outlined by the Minister and its advantages is trying to do. to Central Queensland, I believe that the M'inister has an obligation to the 400 guards I have not heard of the matter raised by in Central Queensland alone to clarify the the honourable member for Rockhampton. policy. Is he considering doing away with the So, rather than say to the honourable mem role of guards in the area? If so, it will ber, "It's right", or, "It's wrong", I will totally destr:Jy the economies of small places find out and make a proper assessment. Eke Bluff. The effect on Gladstone and Rookhampton will be hazardous. I do not I thank the honourable member for know what it will do to Toowoomba. I Brisbane Central for saying that he know it will be very serious. Whilst the appreciates the job the Government is Minister has a responsibility to give considera doing and that he does not oppose the ,tion to all ways of saving money-after at!, proposal, and I think that every other he is dealing with public money-he is also honourable member who spoke agreed with dealing with the lives of people and the him. The Government wishes to have the future of townships and cities. I would ask motion agreed to because it cannot make the Minister to investigate the matter and any resumptions, and so on, till that has make a statement to the Parliament or, if been done, and I think that is fair enough. time is not av<:ilable because of the pending adjournment, to at least make a public state As the honourable member for Brisbane ment to let us know exactly what is hap Central said, the Blackwater-Gladstone coal pening. line carries the greatest volume of traffic in this State. The Minist~r will not receive public sup port for expansion of this type if he is Mr. Davis: I would like to know why. 2506 Norwich Park-German, &c., Rly. [11 & 12 DECEMBER 1979] Papers Mr. TOMKINS: When the electrification when he says that trains will get bigger. of the Melbourne-Sydney railway line was The use of Locotrol, and so on, could bring mentioned last week, I indicated that the the proportion back. Generally speaking, the Blackwater-Gladstone line carried a greater operation has been carried out well. tonnage and would be a better proposition I am sorry that my good friend the for electrification. It is all very well to talk honourable member for Peak Downs (Vince about passengers, but there is no doubt -- Lester) is not here tonight. He would be very interested in this motion, and I think Mr. Davis: I am not knocking that. it is rather a shame that it is being put through in his absence. I am sure that he Mr. TOMKINS: I know the honourable would support it, just as the honourable member is not. member for Wavell supported it. I like to see even Opposition members support pro Mr. Davis: All I said was that the Opposi posals such as this, and they have virtually tion would like to see the consultants' report. done so. Why the big secrecy? This is something that wiii benefit Queens Mr. TOMKINS: I am saying that when land. This type of development makes Queens a specific commodity is carried, the depart land the great State that it is and it will ment must see where it is going and whether make it even better. We are presently talking or not the tonnage will increase. about coking coal. I believe that in the near future there will be a tremendous upsurge The honourable member for Mackay men in the production of steaming coal. tioned Houston Oil & Minerals. I sav to him that, because of the changes that have Motion ,(Mr. Tomkins) agreed to. taken place (and he knows all about them); Resolution reported and agreed to. that company did go backwards for a while, but I am fairly confident now that it wiii The House adjourned at 12.12 a.m. again go forward. Both the Oaky Creek (Wednesday). and German Creek projects should proceed. The revenue being earned by the coal com panies today is enormous, and I would certainly like to think that that wiiJ continue. The honourable member mentioned Cen tral Queensland Coal Associates and the railway line from Norwich Park, passing loops, and so on. The Treasurer is seeking funds overseas to duplicate the Hay Point line. I know that he is also looking for funds to expand Hay Point. When the work is carried out, with advice from consultants, and so on, the matters to which the honour able member referred wiii be attended to. Mr. Casey: The line will be choked long before the new Hay Point facility is ready. It wiiJ take at least two years. Mr. TOMKINS: I wish that the honour able member would not attempt to down grade proposals. Mr. Casey: I am saying that you are doing it back to front. Mr. TOMKINS: Work can be carried out only when development takes place. The consultants will go into the proposal thor oughly, and ,the Government has the necessary expertise in this field. I am sure that there wiiJ not be very much trouble. Earlier I mentioned diesel-electric loco motives. My common sense tells me that eventually all the lines in Central Queens land wiiJ have to be electrified, and I would prefer to see electric trains rather than diesel electrics. The honourable member for Rockhampton mentioned guards. He could have a point