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YOUR VOICE IN PARLIAMENT

THE SECONDSECOND MEETING MEETING OF THEOF SECONDTHE FIFTH SESSION SESSION OF THEOF THEELEVEN TWELFTHTH PARLIAMENT PARLIAMENT TUESDAY 6 APRIL 2021

MIXEDENGLISH VERSION VERSION HANSARDHANSARD NO. 193201

DISCLAIMER Uno cial Hansard This transcript of Parliamentary proceedings is an uno cial version of the Hansard and may contain inaccuracies. It is hereby published for general purposes only. The nal edited version of the Hansard will be published when available and can be obtained from the Assistant Clerk (Editorial). THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY SPEAKER The Hon. Phandu T. C. Skelemani PH, MP. DEPUTY SPEAKER The Hon. Mabuse M. Pule, MP. (Mochudi East)

Clerk of the National Assembly - Ms B. N. Dithapo Deputy Clerk of the National Assembly - Mr L. T. Gaolaolwe Acting Learned Parliamentary Counsel - Ms K. Kokoro Assistant Clerk (E) - Mr R. Josiah CABINET His Excellency Dr M. E. K. Masisi, MP. - President

His Honour S. Tsogwane, MP. (Boteti West) - Vice President Minister for Presidential Affairs, Governance and Public Hon. K. N. S. Morwaeng, MP. (Molepolole South) - Administration

Hon. K. T. Mmusi, MP. (Gabane-Mmankgodi) - Minister of Defence, Justice and Security

Hon. Dr L. Kwape, MP. (Kanye South) - Minister of International Affairs and Cooperation Hon. E. M. Molale, MP. (Goodhope-Mabule ) - Minister of Local Government and Rural Development Hon. K. S. Gare, MP. (Moshupa-Manyana) - Minister of Agricultural Development and Food Security Minister of Environment, Natural Resources Conservation Hon. P. K. Kereng, MP. (Specially Elected) - and Tourism Hon. Dr E. G. Dikoloti MP. (Mmathethe-Molapowabojang) - Minister of Health and Wellness Hon. T.M. Segokgo, MP. (Tlokweng) - Minister of Transport and Communications Hon. K. Mzwinila, MP. (Specially Elected) - Minister of Land Management, Water and Sanitation Services Minister of Youth Empowerment, Sport and Culture Hon. T. M. Rakgare, MP. (Mogoditshane) - Development

Hon. A. M. Mokgethi, MP. (Gaborone Bonnington North) - Minister of Nationality, Immigration and Gender Affairs Hon. Dr T. Matsheka, MP. (Lobatse) - Minister of Finance and Economic Development Hon. F. M. M. Molao, MP. (Shashe West) - Minister of Basic Education Minister of Tertiary Education, Research, Science and Hon. Dr D. Letsholathebe, MP. (Tati East) - Technology Minister of Mineral Resources, Green Technology and Hon. L. M. Moagi, MP. (Ramotswa) - Energy Security

Hon. P. O. Serame, MP. (Specially Elected) - Minister of Investment, Trade and Industry Minister of Employment, Labour Productivity and Skills Hon. M. Balopi, MP. (Gaborone North) - Development

Hon. M. Kgafela, MP. (Mochudi West) - Minister of Infrastructure and Housing Development

Assistant Minister, Presidential Affairs, Governance and Hon. D. M. Mthimkhulu, MP. (Gaborone South) - Public Administration Assistant Minister, Local Government and Rural Hon. K. K. Autlwetse, MP. (Specially Elected) - Development Assistant Minister, Local Government and Rural Hon. S. N. Modukanele, MP. (Lerala -Maunatlala) - Development Assistant Minister, Agricultural Development and Food Hon. B. Manake, MP. (Specially Elected) - Security

Hon. S. Lelatisitswe, MP. (Boteti East) - Assistant Minister, Health and Wellness

Hon. N. W. T. Makwinja, MP. (Lentsweletau-Mmopane) - Assistant Minister, Basic Education

Hon. M. S. Molebatsi, MP. (Mmadinare) - Assistant Minister, Investment, Trade and Industry Assistant Minister, Youth Empowerment, Sport and Culture Hon. H. B. Billy, MP. (Francistown East) - Development Hon. M. R. Shamukuni, MP. (Chobe) - Assistant Minister,Tertiary Education, Research, Science and Technology MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT AND THEIR CONSTITUENCIES

Names Constituency

RULING PARTY (Botswana Democratic Party) Hon. L. Kablay, MP. (Government Whip) Letlhakeng-Lephephe Hon. Dr U. Dow, MP. Specially Elected Hon. P. Majaga, MP. Nata-Gweta Hon. M. I. Moswaane, MP. Francistown West Hon. J. S. Brooks, MP. Kgalagadi South Hon. C. Greeff, MP. Gaborone Bonnington South Hon. T. Letsholo, MP. Kanye North Hon. T. F. Leuwe, MP. Takatokwane Hon. T. Mangwegape-Healy, MP. Gaborone Central Hon. S. N. Moabi, MP. Tati West Hon. T. Monnakgotla, MP. Kgalagadi North Hon. P. K. Motaosane, MP. Thamaga-Kumakwane Hon. O. Regoeng, MP. Molepolole North Hon. J. L. Thiite, MP. Ghanzi North Hon. A. Lesaso, MP. Shoshong Hon. P. P. P. Moatlhodi, MP. Tonota OPPOSITION (Umbrella for Democratic Change) Hon. D. Saleshando, MP. (Leader of Opposition) Maun West Hon. M. G. J. Motsamai, MP. (Opposition Whip) Ghanzi South Hon. D. L. Keorapetse, MP. Selebi Phikwe West Hon. Y. Boko, MP Mahalapye East Hon. Dr K. Gobotswang, MP. Sefhare-Ramokgonami Hon. C. K. Hikuama, MP. Ngami Hon. K. K. Kapinga, MP Okavango Hon. G. Kekgonegile, MP. Maun East Hon. T. B. Lucas, MP. Bobonong Hon. K. Nkawana, MP. Selebi Phikwe East Hon. O. Ramogapi, MP. Palapye Hon. Dr N. Tshabang, MP. Nkange Hon. D. Tshere, MP. Mahalapye West (Botswana Patriotic Front) Hon. T. S. Khama, MP. Serowe West Hon. L. Lesedi, MP. Serowe South Hon. B. Mathoothe, MP. Serowe North Hon. M. R. Reatile, MP. Jwaneng-Mabutsane (Alliance for Progressives) Hon. W. B. Mmolotsi, MP. Francistown South TABLE OF CONTENTS THE SECOND MEETING OF THE SECOND SESSION OF THE TWELFTH PARLIAMENT TUESDAY 6TH APRIL, 2021

CONTENTS PAGE (S) Standing Committee on Remuneration (Members of the National Assembly, Councillors, Ntlo Ya Dikgosi and Specified Offices) Bill, 2021 (No. 4 of 2021) First Reading...... 1 Second Reading...... 1-15 Second Reading (Resumed Debate)...... 26-51

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER...... 16-23 QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE...... 24-25

TABLING OF PAPERS The Botswana Climate Change Policy, 2021...... 1 Tourism Policy...... 1 National Energy Policy...... 1 Tuesday 6th April, 2021 STANDING COMMITTEE ON REMUNERATION (MEMBERS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY, COUNCILLORS, NTLO YA DIKGOSI AND SPECIFIED OFFICES) BILL, 2021 (NO. 4 OF 2021) Second Reading

Tuesday 6th April, 2021 MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL AFFAIRS, GOVERNANCE AND PUBLIC THE ASSEMBLY met at 11:00 a.m. ADMINISTRATION (MR MORWAENG): Mr (THE SPEAKER in the Chair) Speaker, I have the honour to present to this Honourable House for Second Reading, the Standing Committee P R A Y E R S on Remuneration (Members of the National Assembly, Councillors, Ntlo ya Dikgosi and Specified Offices) * * * * Bill, 2021 (No. 4 of 2021). A Standing Committee on MR SPEAKER (MR SKELEMANI): Order! May we Remuneration (Members of the National Assembly, start our business of this morning with the tabling of Councillors, Ntlo ya Dikgosi and Specified Offices) Bill papers. is intended to establish a Standing Committee to advise Government on remuneration and other conditions TABLING OF PAPERS of service for the political leadership and holders of specified positions in Government. The following papers were tabled:

THE BOTSWANA CLIMATE CHANGE POLICY, Mr Speaker, there have been calls in the past, including by 2021 Members of this Honourable House on the need to have a body other than Parliament independently assessing (Minister of Environment, Natural Resources salaries and other conditions of service from Members Conservation and Tourism) of Parliament. The feeling generally is that the current practice, where Members of Parliament determine TOURISM POLICY their conditions of service, was viewed as creating (Minister of Environment, Natural Resources conflict of interest and therefore, undesirable. In 2007, Conservation and Tourism) a Presidential Commission (Dibotelo Commission) was setup to review the salaries, conditions of service and NATIONAL ENERGY POLICY other entitlements for the political leadership, Justices of the Court of Appeal and the High Court, Members (Minister of Mineral Resources, Green Technology and of Ntlo ya Dikgosi and Councillors. The Commission Energy Security) recommended amongst others, that a Standing PRESENTATION OF A GOVERNMENT Committee be setup to periodically advise the President BILL on remuneration and conditions of service for the political leadership and Members of Ntlo ya Dikgosi. The following Bill was presented and read a first time. A similar recommendation was made in 2004 by the … (inaudible)… Task Force which was also commissioned STANDING COMMITTEE ON REMUNERATION by the President. (MEMBERS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY, COUNCILLORS, NTLO YA DIKGOSI AND The Gaongalelwe Commission of 2018 is the last SPECIFIED OFFICES) BILL, 2021 (NO. 4 OF commission to undertake a review of conditions of 2021) service for the political leadership, Justices of Appeal Second Reading - Forthwith. and Judges of the High Court, Members of Ntlo ya Dikgosi and Councillors. The Commission indicated BILL that it shared the previous Commission’s views and recommended that a committee be accordingly STANDING COMMITTEE ON established. The Gaongalelwe Commission envisaged REMUNERATION (MEMBERS that such body will be largely independent and relatively OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY, free from any suspicion of bias and conflict of interest. COUNCILLORS, NTLO YA DIKGOSI Government has welcomed the recommendation on the AND SPECIFIED OFFICES) BILL, 2021 establishment of a Standing Committee on conditions (NO. 4 OF 2021) of service for the political leadership, Members of Ntlo Second Reading ya Dikgosi and Specified Offices. However, because the salaries of Specified Offices are also regulated byan

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Act of Parliament, the Bill proposes that the mandate of consider all the issues he has mentioned concerning the Standing Committee should also cover the holders Honourable Members, Honourable Councillors and our of Specified Offices. These are the Attorney General, Magosi. Auditor General, Chairman and other members of the Public Service Commission, the Secretary of the Kgosi e a re go tlhotsa, malata a gagabe. It is important Independent Electoral Commission (IEC) and the for us as a country to be proud of our Magosi and honour Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP). Therefore, them because if it was not because of them, we would this Bill Mr Speaker, is intended to implement the not have this country. God inspired our three Magosi Commissions’ recommendations to establish a to fly to England to request for our independence Standing Committee with the right skills to assess therefore, it is very important for us to love and honour the remuneration and other conditions of service for them in everything we do. The word of God says, “love Members of the National Assembly, Members of Ntlo all believers, love all people, honour your Kgosi.” ya Dikgosi, Councillors and Specified Offices. The I agree with you on the Bill you presented before us committee will meet periodically and will be guided Honourable Minister. I will start with Clause 2 where by directions which I will, as the Minister responsible, you talk about employement. This Clause talks about issue from time to time. Above all, the committee will someone with experience in political matters. My be enjoined to observe confidentiality of all matters that suggestion and request is that, you should look for will come before it. All its members will therefore be someone, if he/she is a Councillor they should have required to take oath before assuming their duties. served two terms, if a Member of Parliament, they Lastly Mr Speaker, the passing of this Bill will mean should have served two terms or more. A person that that any salary reviews for all persons stated in this Bill, served a single term and lost elections is still trying to will be based on the recommendation of a Standing find their feet in those five years. Committee. This concludes my presentation. I now move There is Clause 2 (c) where you said “a person with Mr Speaker, that Standing Committee on Remuneration experience related to Bogosi.” Our Bogosi is in two (Members of the National Assembly, Councillors, Ntlo categories, we have those who are Dikgosi by birth ya Dikgosi and Specified Offices) Bill, 2021 (No. 4 of like Kgosi Radipitse in Tonota whom I love very much; 2021) be read a second time. I thank you Mr Speaker. we also have another Kgosi like Kgosi Mlaladzi for MR MOATLHODI (TONOTA): I thank you Mr example, who was appointed through elections to lead Speaker. Good morning sir. Let me indicate my support Borolong Kgotla. You mentioned that you seek those for the Honourable Minister who has just presented … who have experience in Bogosi; so I urge you to offer two options. That is, Kgosi by birth and the one who was MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable elected. I am done with that point Honourable Speaker. Moatlhodi, just to remind Members that you have 20 minutes. Proceed Honourable Moatlhodi, you have got Clause 3; you mentioned that this committee must have 20 minutes. a Permanent Secretary (PS) responsible for Presidential Affairs and other members. I humbly plead with you MR MOATLHODI: Thank you Mr Speaker. Thank Minister to include the Permanent Secretary responsible you uncle. I will not spend all of this time. Honourable for Local Government, the mandate of Councillors is Speaker, I was still expressing my support to the Minister centred at Local Government. of Presidential Affairs, Honourable Kabo Neal Sechele Morwaeng, Rebo and Rari’s father. I support him on the I am passing that one and I am moving to Clause 4 (2); basis that I support the Motion that he has presented the committee shall forward its report recommendations before us. There is a Setswana saying that, moreko ga to the Minister responsible for finance. Minister, I am o ke o ithekolola and in English we say, we normally concerned, I am not referring to you my little brother, cannot be referees and players on our matters at the same your honour. When some Ministers were handed these time. Those who are good at using derogatory English reports to read and forward to the relevant authority, would say, monkeys cannot preside over matters at their obviously His Excellency the President should also own jungle. So, that is not my point, what am saying is read the report, but a person would just put the report that, it is fitting for Honourable Minister Morwaeng to on his desk without forwarding it. He is of the view that request this House to appoint a committee which will if this report passes then Members of Parliament and

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Councillors will earn a lot of money. He only thinks pleading with you Minister, there is a Setswana saying of himself, he does not consider his other colleagues that, ‘khudu e nyela morwadi’. Our parents started from so that they can also get something. Reports should be nothing and currently our Councils are well established. forwarded to the relevant authorities; immediately it is Minister, I am begging you, this committee should pay submitted to you Minister, you invite your colleagues, former Councillors pension, it should pay our parents, after reviewing it you remain with your copy and some are even blind. Hunger can cause blindness and forward it to the relevant authority. There must be a time lead you to extreme poverty yet our parents worked limit as to when such a report should be submitted to the for this country. You can just imagine that a former relevant office. Councillor used to travel from Chobe to attend a full Council in Maun, passing through lions, elephants I am moving on Honourable Speaker. Clause 8; you but is currently not paid anything. I am begging you will not allow Members of Parliament to be part of this Minister, I request that former Councillors should be committee. I agree with you your honour , left and right, paid pension, even if they can be paid P3, 000, I am word for word, comma for comma, to quote my Moeng giving an example, I would be so happy. The elderly College English, “I agree with you in toto.” However, still need medical attention, food and accommodation. I disagree with you where you prohibit Member of The late Mmina Chibelu, Ms Lemme once told me, one Parliament, Honourable Keorapetse, I am using him as needs a house, where their funeral will be held. Former an example because he is my younger brother,where Councillors are suffering, you will even not believe if you prohibit him from providing evidence. I want to you can be shown someone who is a former Councillor, emphasise this thing of confidentiality Honourable looking at how they are struggling. Minister; reports from the Committee are very confidential. There are cases where you will find that, There is an English proverb, “footprints on the sands a fresh report from the Committee which has not even of time are not made by sitting down.” These Councils been seen by His Excellency the President, is in the were established by our parents from nothing. I am hands of someone at Shakawe or Mmandunyane for begging you Minister, ensure that former Councillors example; it had leaked. Appoint people who can handle are paid pension. We need to be regionally competitive confidential information for this country. as we possibly can Mr Speaker. Right now if you visit Seychelles, Zimbabwe, Mozambique and Malawi you Clause 11; you mention that as the Minister, you will will find that, former Councillors are paid pension so consider how you will pay members of this committee are former Members of Parliament (MPs). Honourable mileage, sitting allowance. No, I do not disagree. Right Members, we are not permanent, if we are still here, it now, as I drove from Tonota yesterday, Honourable is better because one can afford to buy essentials month Speaker, knows how much he is going to pay me end. However after you retire and you tell a person that for my mileage because he called me for official you are a former Member of Parliament they might not duty. Government has set some mileages and sitting believe. Until and unless you invested your salary so allowance so far, go and benchmark from what is that you can be able to buy livestock which can sustain already there. Yes, I do agree that this committee is you. It is not enough, you have served this country special and deserves special treatment because they and it is the only one which does not pay politicians execute a special assignment. As you formulate these pension. Honourable Speaker, we should not be making things ensure that you benchmark on existing policies. this request. . This committee should go and prepare for Honourable Speaker, I am concerned. Honourable our future… Members, when we took over this country, it had HONOURABLE MEMBER: Hello! Come to the nothing but we had leaders. Council was not established Office of the President (OP), okay. Yes, you… recently but a long time ago when our parents who served as Councillors were earning P2.00. The likes of MR MOATLHODI: Honourable Speaker, people who former Councillors, Ms Kekana Lesole in Selebi Phikwe bring phones to such a well-respected assembly of yours were earning P4.00 when Council was introduced in should be beaten up. this country, they guided this country. Our parents! I am giving my in-law, Ms B. K. Lesole in Selebi Phikwe as Those are the few remarks Honourable Speaker, which an example. Currently, our former Council members are I wanted the Honourable Minister to take as food food suffering, such that they have turned into beggars. I am for thought. With tha being said, I wish this committee

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the best and for them to embark on the same journey as us. If we allow a law that gives the Minister the power that of Moses. Let it be footprints on sand since it was to temper with the systems and choose those who run after the death of Our Lord Jesus Christ, Honourable the system, no Honourable Members, that kind of law Speaker, let it be like Galilee where the son of God, will just be a problem and we will just be passing time. Jesus Christ performed his first miracle, and changed That is a law that will not be good for us. We do not water into wine. The son of God, who for the first time want Botswana Democratic Party (BDP) deployees commanded the sea at Galilee, the son of God who for in this committee, we are tired of making laws which the first time gave 5 000 people loaves he made from are meant to trick Batswana, whereby we say we have five blessed loaves. Let God bless this committee, and a Land Boards Act, where the Members of those land assist Honourable Members of Parliament, Honourable boards should be people who have certain qualifications Councilors, Dikgosi and all the relevant parties, good and skills. However, when it is time to implement a law, luck Honourable Minister. I thank you a lot Mr Speaker. we are told that the Minister will choose members of Land Board. If he is going to be the one who elects MR SPEAKER: Thank you Honourable Moatlhodi. the members, he is mostly going to include members DR GOBOTSWANG (SEFHARE- of Domkrag (Botswana Democratic Party) who lost RAMOKGONAMI): Let me thank you Mr Speaker. elections, some who have lost primary elections, then Let me indicate that this Motion that has been put before in the end it is really evident that we did absolutely us, no one can disagree with it because we understand nothing. Honourable Members I want to do something its intentions and we agree with it that, things have not serious, the Minister’s hand should not be involved in been going well, as we are expected to do things for such a way that in the end we will be saying we have ourselves as Members of Parliament. It is like we were been given a committee, we have legally established a sent by Batswana to cook meat and after the meat is committee whereas we know that the Minister is going ready, we put ourselves first and dish for ourselves any to elect the people who will be representing the interests way we please. This was totally a wrong arrangement. of the Minister and the members of Domkrag (Botswana I am pleased to be part of the 12th Parliament which is Democratic Party). That would not be a good procedure trying to address things. The objective is to come up because when you tell the Minister to elect people, he is with a plan that will take us away from the old system, going to elect them in such a way that he is going to act where there will be no trace that as we review this law, as Parliament, whereas he is a Member of Parliament we continue to use our positions in different ways and who is a Minister, and he will be doing what we are then we end up destroying what we are trying to build. trying to address Honourable Members. Honourable That will be very sad because, what we are trying to Members that is not a good arrangement. do is that, we want a committee that will somehow I am saying as we review this Motion again, we should be independent. It should look like it is independent. consider women Honourable Monnakgotla, and where What is sad is that, this Motion will come here as good they fit in this plan. That is a system we have to be aware as it is and we agree with it, but when it comes to its of when we get there. implementation and its details, that is when you will now realise that most of the time when Domkrag(Botswana So there is this other issue that was not explained Democratic Party) says it is bringing change, there is properly as you have been mentioning different people, nothing that they are doing. You will realise that we are different officers, Members of Parliament, politicians, not going anywhere, there is absolutely nothing, they Judges and I do not hear you mention Dikgosi. I hear are just tricking people. you talking about Ntlo Ya Dikgosi, members of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi, but there is nowhere in this plan you are Honourable Members I want to challenge you that as we talking about Dikgosi. That means that somehow, discuss this Motion like we are discussing it, and we agree because not so long ago when Honourable Modukanele that it should provide a different plan, let it be a different answered a question he indicated that, no we cannot… plan at the end of the day. We cannot continue with that it was asked by Honourable Kekgonegile, that wait system of putting ourselves first. What is happening is first with those issues of Dikgosi because we are trying that, we do not want to see the Minister’s hand getting to establish a committee that is going to review their involved in this plan, because he is a Minister and also working conditions. I had hope that when you said a Member of Parliament. These Ministers know that specified offices or officers you meant Dikgosi, so the they can end up as Members of Parliament just like many Dikgosi that are not there in the Constitution... I

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was listening to Minister when he presented his report, no assistant. You will never know which system is being he also talked about past commissions, and Dikgosi used? I think this kind of committee should review were not included at all. Our hope was that, Dikgosi these things and properly manage our Dikgotla. We should have been included Honourable Members, should have a system in place, there should be equity because the conditions that Dikgosi work under should and facilities should be the same. We should not have be addressed. Where have you seen a job that does situations whereby some people are crowded in offices not have progression, where people are not promoted, and others have an abundance of space, others have they will then pile up to be representatives of Kgosi, furniture and others go around asking for furniture. It is and they pile up on C1 scale. That piling up creates a not a good arrangement. I believe when the conditions situation whereby one would end up praying that the of service for Dikgosi are considered, these are things senior representative to Kgosi dies. Should someone be that have to be looked into Honourable Members. wished death for others to be promoted? This is a bad system, there should also be a progression programme So, we have Headmen of Arbitration, those are also when it comes to Chieftainship. So the other problem facing challenges. They were promised salaries, their is that sometimes when someone is on D4 scale, there names were submitted, but they were shelved, others is no D3 post, they just go straight to D2 scale. So that were submitted later, and those that were submitted is why people are piling up because even if there could at a later stage were included. Honourable Molale have included a certain scale where people could be sometimes I wonder if you are fully present in your promoted to , that scale is not available, so that has now job when it comes to certain issues, or are you on increased the gap between those who are lower scales sabbatical? Things in his ministry are a bit confusing and those on high scales regarding Chieftainship... when it comes to the Headmen of Arbitration because they are still volunteering up to now. On the other side, MR RAMOGAPI: Point of elucidation. Thank you some are paid, and others are not. A committee like this Mr Speaker. You are right Honourable Gobotswang. one has responsibilities and ability to address the way The main issue is that, when we talk about Bogosi it things have been going on. seems like the Government now forgets that when we say Kgosi or Magosi, we do not only mean those The Headmen or Arbitration are facing challenges. The who are members of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi, the Government Ministry of Local Government is trampling upon the only focuses on those who have been elected into Ntlo Constitution. There is Section 23 Sub-section 2 of the Ya Dikgosi. Magosi who are at our Dikgotla are now Bogosi Act. It shows that when a person is Kgosi, they forgotten, and they are not included anywhere. Let me are going to be Kgosi until they are 80 years. However, say you are very right there, the Government has to for them when someone turns 60 years, they sideline review the entire Bogosi system, because a Kgosi is a him, and keep them there, and that person turns into Kgosi. In our Setswana culture we do not have a Kgosi a bootlicker...(interruption)…so that their term can be and Kgosana, we just know that there is a Kgosi. Thank extended… you Honourable Member. MR SPEAKER: Procedure. Vice President (VP) says there is something wrong with our procedure. DR GOBOTSWANG: Thank you Mr Speaker, thank you Honourable Member. Really, that is how it is, and LEADER OF THE HOUSE (MR TSOGWANE): we will not be doing the right thing if we continue with Procedure. I thank you Mr Speaker. Thank you this law that sidelines Dikgosi. I wonder where we are Honourable Member, I would like to make a little going to meet them as they have these challenges. This clarification. I am not going to use his time because the committee is supposed to come up with good systems clock has been stopped. because right now the way Dikgosi and Dikgotla have been structured, even their working conditions are I wanted us to clarify this issue Mr Speaker as the really a mess and you cannot know what system is being Standing Order requests that we have to address the used there? You cannot know the system Honourable topic at hand, so that in future people would not be Molale is using? There is no equity, you will find that a disturbed. They should know who is affected by the Bill big village has only one Kgosi. In my constituency there we are debating, and who is not. In future some might is a big village called Chadibe, but right now Kgosi say, “We have been sidelined,” not knowing who is Rabojang at Chadibe is just there on his own and he has affected by the Bill we are discussing here today.

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I am saying this because, the Honourable Member The other one that I wanted to talk about, is that the on the floor is talking about Headmen of Arbitration Minister of Local Government has terminated people’s and others who are not being paid, but this Bill really contracts… has nothing to do with those ones. It is dealing with Members of Ntlo ya Dikgosi, Members of Parliament LEADER OF THE HOUSE (MR TSOGWANE): and Councillors. The Judges were initially included, and Point of order. this time around they are not included. MR SPEAKER: VP, I have just made a ruling that the So, for us not to confuse the nation out there, who may Honourable Member on the floor is procedural. If you think that this committee is going to deal with their do not have anything else, I am refusing. salaries, yet it is quite far from the salaries of those who MR TSOGWANE: I am raising a point of order Mr are not affected by how things were and how they are Speaker which has got nothing to do with the Member currently. holding the floor. I just wanted to say maybe we would be out of procedure MR SPEAKER: I am refusing because nothing else is if we would talk about salaries in general, for those who done by the Honourable Member on the floor except to are not affected by this Bill, as it is. Thank you. continue with the same argument. MR SPEAKER: Honourable Leader of the House, as MR TSOGWANE: I am raising a point of order on a I understand Honourable Dr Gobotswang, that is such a thing that he is quarrelling about, that those being in... different matter Mr Speaker. (inaudible)…which leaves out other Magosi. So, he is procedural. He is quarrelling with your...(inaudible)… MR SPEAKER: I have heard you, there is no different but that is in order. matter being said now.

MR TSOGWANE: Procedure Mr Speaker. DR GOBOTSWANG: Thank you Mr Speaker. Do not be afraid to chase him out if he is out of order Mr MR SPEAKER: No, Honourable VP. He is procedural. Speaker, he is just a Member of Parliament like us.

MR TSOGWANE: No, but we would be out of What I was simply saying was that there is Section 23 procedure, because that is what is… Sub-section 2, which has clearly explained it. Even MR SPEAKER: No more procedure, I have just made the Attorney General told those at Local Government a ruling on that one. He is procedural. Dr Gobotswang, that there is no such thing that Kgosi retires at 60 or 65 continue. years. Kgosi just goes on until they are 80 years. DR GOBOTSWANG: I thank you Mr Speaker. You So for them when someone turns 60 years, they put them are dealing with him very well. Once you have made a on a contract, then they ended contracts and they went ruling Mr Speaker, there is no one who can go against it. around asking for them. Magosi have been reduced to That is the case Mr Speaker. That is my main point, and beggars. You will find them grovelling, begging. Right that is what I am arguing about. I believe the Honourable now, some Magosi in my constituency are just idling. Vice President has even clarified it further so that It has been a year since they have been waiting for everybody would hear what I am complaining about. I Honourable Molale to extend their contracts, and they am complaining about the fact that we have come up have not reached 80 years yet. The Attorney General with a Bill that is leaving Dikgosi out. My expectation has given them counsel, but they do not care about his was that they were supposed to be included. advice. I do not know why they sought it. So that is the challenge we are facing concerning Local Government My point is that going further, all Honourable Members and the issue of Dikgosi. and members of the BDP (Domkrag), today we should agree Honourable Members, once in a lifetime that on The other issue that I would like to talk about is in this one, Dikgosi should be included. If we can fail to regard to Councillors Honourable Members. I believe agree on this one, ah! I can surrender. I would see that this committee has to thoroughly review the conditions indeed the witch or wizard who bewitched you is very of service for Councillors. Those of us who work cruel. I am hopeful that we will amend that one Mr with Councillors and the nation are aware. We know Speaker. that Councillors work 24/7. The poor people do not

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sleep. They are basically ambulances. There are no MR SPEAKER: There is the issue, I do not understand ambulances in many villages, so the Councillor’s it. vehicle is the one which operates as an ambulance. If the agricultural demonstrator is not able to go and measure DR GOBOTSWANG: No, I hear that you are dragging fields, the Councillor’s vehicle is the one that transports your argument to the issue that I am not talking about. the farmers and the agriculture officer to go and measure Today I was talking about remunerations and working the fields. conditions of Councillors, I was talking about how much work they do and that their situation should be If the social worker has to go and assess the destitutes, assessed and improved for the better. As they would be and they do not have a vehicle to transport them; the working, perhaps they would afford to open tuckshops Councillor’s vehicle would be used. and sustain themselves. No one is opposing that people should open tuckshops on the side. As Umbrella for HONOURABLE MEMBER: Even a corpse. Democratic Change (UDC), we often clash with the DR GOBOTSWANG: Oh, good people! Do you want idea in which Ministers are involved in Government to tell me this is a situation that we have to carry on with, tenders or doing businesses with the government. We and eventually when they leave the jobs, they would be are totally against that. destitutes? From there they work under the drought relief What I am saying is that, you will agree with me that programmes, and then we laugh at them saying, “This working conditions …well, I am not aware of the person was once called honourable.” There is no car working conditions of your Councillors at Kgalagadi allowance; there is nothing that assists them to go around North. I was just explaining the situations that I see all doing all these things. There is no vehicle designated for the time, Councillors are the ones who are closer to the all these assignments for ministries that are failing to people and when most government departments do not provide a vehicle. When those at the school do not have have resources, Councillors are the ones who assist here a vehicle to go and do photocopying in Mahalapye when and there. they are in Tswapong, the Councillor has to provide a vehicle to go and assist there Honourable Members. At the end, let us agree, I believe that at the end we will agree that Dikgosi have to be included on this one, we We have to look into these issues. When there are should also reduce the Ministers’ muscles. Thank you contributions to be made or fundraising, the Councillor Mr Speaker. is on every list, they would be above everyone, and everyone would be looking to them to contribute MR BROOKS (KGALAGADI SOUTH): Thank you something. From there the next person is Kgosi, and Mr Speaker. I would like to point out that I support both of them are in situations which I believe this the Minister’s Bill. We have been wondering about committee once it kick-starts its mandate, they will also the progress of the issue which we long discussed at see that they have a lot on their table. Boipuso Hall last year. We have also been having serious As I conclude Honourable Members, I would like to say concerns, more especially looking at the concerns of our this time around let us agree on one thing in the end, that fellow Councillors. If you were once a Councillor, when Dikgosi should be included in this arrangement. Councillors talk about these concerns, you would be aware of them and your body start itching because you MS MONNAKGOTLA: Clarification. I thank you are absolutely aware of the challenges they are talking Mr Speaker. Thank you Honourable Gobotswang, and about, that they are not just making those challenges up, you actually happen to be my in-law in Kang; such a it is the reality since you also once experienced it. hard worker who even has a cattle post in Kang. You are debating very well. Honourable Member I heard I would like to state that I believe half of us here in this you saying the Councillors work very hard and they House, some are Ministers, they were once Councillors end up using their salaries to cater for their people. and they know how much work Councillors are doing Last time when we were talking, we said when a person on the ground. For every party to be where it is, be it is working; they can save so that they would embark the ruling party or opposition, it is because of what on businesses, do you not consider the fact that the Councillors of that particular party are doing on the President is also working hence he can also save money ground, they work hard because they do not have any to start a business? Thank you Honourable. intentions of dragging their parties on the mud. They

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are trying their best and they even go beyond their MR TSOGWANE: Let me say this in front of the nation, responsibility which is there in the Local Government they also understand the issue at hand. Honourable Act or in the Council Act. These are some of the things holding the floor, Honourable Brooks, are you saying which I believe I should be grateful for Minister, I that the Bill that we are debating which talks about the cannot hesitate when I talk about your proposal, we procedure which has always been there pertaining to have to be firm and support you Honourable Minister. salaries of Members of parliament, Councillors, Ntlo You have even delayed Honourable, this issues should ya Dikgosi , Judges and other specified officers was have long been presented so that we understand where always drafted by Parliament? When we come up with they are heading. this law and say that these salaries should be handled by the committee, will it be proper to group all the The concern that I have, I will continue to talk about the remunerations, including those for Dikgosi who are concerns, suggestions, and the advices on what he can not members of Ntlo ya Dikgosi, and stop them,and do, the concern that I have is the one which was raised then we assign to the committee the existing procedure by the Honourable Members of Parliament. We have to where their salaries are paid together with those of other talk about this issue without hesitating, when we talk public servants? Will it be procedural, are we going to about Dikgosi, we should be firm and talk about Dikgosi discuss what we debated, that we do not want to handle from the top of the hierarchy going down. When we start our remunerations and that they should be assigned to being selective, talking about Ntlo ya Dikgosi only, we the committee because they have always been handled are creating problems. When we talk about this Bogosi by Parliament as it was the procedure? We are talking issue, let me cite Kgalagadi South Constituency as an about the law that is there. example, I am just giving an example and not saying that it can be like that. When we talk about Ntlo ya When we debate to amuse the nation, when we try Dikgosi, then it obviously means that all of us here wish to entice people with issues which are not true, this to see ourselves at the top in future. Not just wishing to House would be out of order. As I said earlier on, this be at the top but because there are better benefits there. House is completely taken out of order by people who So, when we start being selective or drawing a line for want to charm the nation wrongfully. Some of the this increment and focusing mainly on Ntlo ya Dikgosi, remunerations of Dikgosi have not always been in this then it means that the campaign to go to Ntlo ya Dikgosi procedure so we should not mislead people as if we would be massive and stir conflicts between Dikgosi in are talking about a procedure which has always been our respective constituencies. We are saying that this is there, that is what I am saying. Why do we not focus on the law that we want to make because of the stipulated the Motion that we are proposing without hesitating, we reasons? Because they are regulated by the Public should eliminate Ntlo ya Dikgosi and talk about Dikgosi Service Act which has been paying and increasing their in General. salaries just like other public servants. Should we now talk about Village Development Committee (VDC), that HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of elucidation. it should be included together with teachers and other MR SPEAKER: Point of elucidation Vice President officers, will we be honest to the nation? Let us face (VP). the truth. We are also violating the Standing Order that says, when something has been presented in this House, HIS HONOUR THE VICE PRESIDENT (MR we should focus on it as per our Standing Orders. I will TSOGWANE): Elucidation. Mr Speaker, it will be a not withdraw this because I do not want to mislead the sad day today… nation, so let us not lie to the people. MR SPEAKER: Honourable Member, do you yield for HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure Mr Speaker. t h e V P p l e a s e ? I t i s fi n e H o n o u r a b l e B r o o k s ? MR BROOKS: Thank you Mr Speaker, thank you VP. MR BROOKS: Mr Speaker! What we are saying here, what we are looking at is that, all the laws which are made in Botswana are made by us MR SPEAKER: You are giving the VP, right? Members of Parliament, they pass through this House. MR BROOKS: Yes sir. What we are looking at on Honourable Morwaeng’s proposal, is the sections which are seemingly left behind MR SPEAKER: VP, go ahead. at this point in time. If we are not able to look at Bogosi

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or put Ntlo ya Dikgosi aside, we are saying that we ambulances. They do this wholeheartedly, fulfilling the should assess it and see how it would be like to remove promises they made to people that a Councillor will Ntlo ya Dikgosi and leave it open. We understand the stand with them at all times. system of electing Dikgosi to Ntlo ya Dikgosi. That is We must also compare the work of Councillors with what I am saying Vice President (VP) that, looking at their remuneration and those of other councillors the way this Bill is maybe the time has come for us to in the neighbouring countries; they have the same consider all sides so that we can be able to amend them concerns, they are our foot soldiers. They have the same to function the way they are supposed to. Just because challenge, therefore their remuneration should be the it happened like this from back then does not exempt it same as those in the neighbouring countries such as from being an error. It has come to us, let us see how we South Africa, Namibia, Zambia, just to mention a few so can improve this situation… that these things can match and their salaries increased. There is no former Councillor that you can meet who MR SPEAKER: Procedure. Honourable Gobotswang. wants to be told that they were former councillors DR GOBOTSWANG: Procedure. Thank you Mr except to embarrass them that they were once slaves Speaker. In his words VP thinks that we are saying this to the people, and they left empty handed. We should from a bad motive. So, Mr Speaker, I do not think this be looking into these things intently so that they can be is right because as Honourable Members, we have been assisted accordingly. They are really doing a lot on our sent here by our constituents including Dikgosi. This is behalf, while we are here they are at constituencies, at not my message but of Magosi Mr Speaker. Thank you. the wards doing everything Mr Speaker.

MR SPEAKER: Honourable Members, I think we One other point I want to state Honourable Minister if should distinguish between procedure and disagreeing. you agree with me is that, if you take Clause 4 and 5, you The VP is disagreeing with what Honourable Brooks will realise that we have the Dibotelo Commission as and Dr Gobotswang are saying. That is all that he is well as the Gaongalelwe Commission. You will realise doing. He is just disagreeing. There is no procedure in that a long time passed between these commissions. it. He is entitled to his views and so you are entitled to We are still talking about recommendations of the yours. old commissions. This means somewhere somehow, I wish you all the best that you are going to come with a MR BROOKS: Thank you Mr Speaker. I had already different picture or approach into this next commission concluded on how we view Bogosi. Let me continue Mr Minister. I am looking at Gaongalelwe Commission and advise the Minister that one of the things that we which was in 2018, less than three or so years, you must consider as I have just said is, we learnt from are coming up with another commission which seeks Councils and we know their challenges. Some of us who to review what you have presented; remunerations of were councillors for 25 years know that it is not a joke. councillors. I totally believe that you are going to respond Honourable Minister, we support you wholeheartedly in to these issues swiftly. We are not going to have reports this Bill and we want you to look into it critically so that are going to be shelved without implementation Mr that this paper passes fast, or the commission that you Minister. I wish you the best in doing that. are thinking of establishing Honourable Minister should come so that we support you and it helps our colleagues My only major concern is Clause 8, “The Committee in the villages at the wards to be able to protect the shall meet periodically and will be guided by directions nation. which I will as the Minister responsible, issue from time to time.” So, Mr Minister, are we supposed to believe that Maybe we should go back to 1998 system of Car Subsidy this commission is independent? Okay, you are the head Allowance. 50 per cent was paid by the Government and of the ministry, you will be the overseer but if it looks the other 50 per cent was paid by the Councillors and like you are… that is my view and a very independent Members of Parliament (MPs). Somehow, somewhere view from Sam Brooks. It has nothing attached to it it was abused. Mr Speaker, in 1999 it was stopped to my dear friend, my dear brother and my dear colleague review some things. Like one has just said, it is actually in the Botswana Democratic Party (BDP). I felt that true that Honourable Councillors do everything; they on this one, if you have given them their duties, let get involved in funerals and when one is sick. If their them execute them without us interfering until we are vehicles are not used as mortuary they are used as handed the report the way they would have worked on

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it. If you constantly appear or get involved, it makes said that Mr Speaker, let me stop here and say indeed, me uncomfortable that maybe it will appear as if all the I support Honourable Morwaeng for the document he ideas, some of us are going to say, not me but some of us presented before us. Thank you very much. who might hold a different opinion that maybe now this MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND commission is bringing the Minister’s ideas. So, I was COMMUNICATIONS (MR SEGOKGO): Thank asking the Minister to hand over to them. you for giving me this opportunity Mr Speaker. I am Like one Member said, let us involve people who passed going to be very brief. I would like to start by indicating through that; we do have former MPs, Councillors and that I support Minister Morwaeng for the new regulation Dikgosi who have retired. So, when they say, this is the which he presented before us. figure that we can think of, they would be able to justify that figure looking at the current situation… Firstly, you are not deceiving the nation but following advises given by the commission concerning how to HIS NONOUR THE VICE PRESIDENT (MR handle payments of those in Parliament, Executive, TSOGWANE): On a point of clarification Mr Speaker. Judges and many more others. I believe that is the time I am sorry Mr Speaker, my chat had a problem from the when we had commissions that is, if I am not mistaken. start. It never works. So, the clarification I am seeking I believe the Minister talked about the Lesetedi from my colleague is, I heard him saying this commission, Commission. The most important thing is, we are so I want it to be very clear to people that here we are forming a committee that is going to review the salaries not talking about a commission or committee that is of Members of Parliament (MPs), Councillors, Judges, going to review remunerations generally. We are talking Ntlo ya Dikgosi just like other public servants. about a committee that will from time to time when Mr Speaker, I mostly appreciate that this committee Government increases salaries, it will be responsible for will be addressing all the major concerns that we have. reviewing these ones that the law allows to be reviewed. When MPs set a target on how their salaries should be Maybe when we say commission, people will assume paid, if you are in that situation, you will be displeased that it refers to a commission that will review salaries because you represent people; they make it look like generally. We should be clear. We should also tell people you are only concerned about yourself instead of being that this is not for remunerations review or to set up this interested in their affairs. This is not conflict of interest commission. Rather, we are doing this so they may start in any way, it causes a conflict between MPs and reviewing salaries. Public servants know that this year, Councillors who look up to us to voice their concerns we did not say anything about salary increments. So let and complaints. So I believe this committee is really us not distract them by giving them false hope. This is going to assist. Not only with Councillors, they also not a commission. It is a normal committee which will need our support. Another point worthy to be discussed always be responsible for that. So I thought he should is that, the Honourable Members mentioned that this clarify that point. Thank you. committee should also focus on all our Magosi. So I am MR BROOKS: Thank you for the correction also wondering how we are going to set a limit for them Honourable Vice President (VP). Where I said or who is this committee going to be responsible for? I commission should be committee. Generally, that is am concerned that we might fail to set a limit for them what I thought we should consider. We should engage and thus, they will fail to address its intended purpose. those who were once appointed into this committee to Mr Speaker, if you go through Clauses of the regulation review these things. The question is, how long do we presented here, especially looking at the nature of intend to have this committee? Is it going to last for how this committee will be formed, I am very pleased five years or we are going to appoint new members because they included people with relevant expertise every year? Are we going to keep replacing committee to review the issue of salaries of the officers we are members? That is one of the things I thought about. I discussing who serve the nation. This committee also do not know, I have not read the whole paper, maybe includes those who have knowledge on how to process somewhere along the Clauses there is somewhere where these payments. he indicates that this committee will be dissolved to appoint other members after every financial year. We I would also like to debate and emphasise that we do that considering advises they give to Government have discussed for a long time, especially Honourable on the basis that, they should increase salaries. Having Councillors who we know deal with the burden of tasks

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given to public servants in our constituencies. We are not being Members of Parliament, Councillors, let me only talking about salaries but conditions of service as mention Dikgosi because I believe it is already well. One of the important things which must be tasked progressive. Our focus is on amending the Constitution to this committee, is for Parliament to reach out to people of Botswana and ensure that Dikgosi of merafe who to explain duties of MPs, including those of our staff at were hated by the Government of the BDP, after all councils. I believe a time has come for councils to reach these years will finally be recognised. Dikgosi of out to the nation to teach them about what is expected Baherero, Ovambanderu, Bambukushu, Basarwa, from a Councillor. I am saying this because indeed, they Batswapong and Bayei, I believe will benefit from this are dealing with a very challenging work. So we must Committee. I believe it is progressive, that as we amend not find issues in this committee being those that deal the Constitution, we will also include them. All merafe with the mandate of Councillors, especially political of Bakgalagadi, Batswapong and Babirwa whose matters and not services that are offered by council. So Dikgosi were not recognised and could not be elected they must understand the mandate of Councillors when as members of Ntlo ya Dikgosi so that they can also air talking about salaries. I am saying this because at times, their views of their merafe will be included and I am you will find the nation having some expectations which grateful for that. do not match duties of Councillors. Mr Speaker, let me also indicate that I do not believe that Before concluding Mr Speaker, I wish to raise another when we discuss the terms and conditions of service, point as a suggestion. If we read Clause 8, it defines the focus is only money. I have never taken money to composition of members of this committee. I realise be a panacea to all the challenges that face all these that if I have not omitted anything, we suggested that representatives. I think the duty we are undertaking of members of Ntlo ya Dikgosi should not be members of being Members of Parliament, politicians and Bogosi this committee because if that is the case, we are going is a service and a calling that needs to be adequately to find ourselves in a situation where one is both a player facilitated to perform to your optimal best. It needs and a referee. I am thankful that there is a confidentiality to be facilitated well, you should be provided with Clause included for this committee Mr Speaker, so that proper conditions of service to be able to perform to confidential issues can be safeguarded from the public. the maximum potential. That is why I believe, it is not only money because if we do, we will never achieve I want to conclude by saying, in my own view, the law is our goals. Just take a look at the offices of Members of attempting to make progress by changing the conditions Parliament, how resourced they are to allow them to of service. We do not find ourselves having to set the perform. Do they have the necessary tools to allow them figure and conditions of service. In my view bythe to carry out their duties? Just take a look at Councillors, time this committee produces a report, it provides room why are they all over the place? Do they have offices for the payment of Members of Parliament to change. which allow them to perform better? What I am calling The report will pass through Parliament as a Bill which for this committee is to look at the holistic approach, it at first were recommendations. I conclude thus Mr will come with recommendations and present them to the Speaker, I support my colleague. Thank you. President and Government as it was reported rather than MR HIKUAMA (NGAMI): Thank you Mr Speaker. saying increase by 10 per cent or 20 per cent because that Let me also take this opportunity to support the Bill would never solve the problem, unless if you address the the responsible Minister presented before us. Let me core basics of providing them with necessary resources. applaud him that he left our home with something As we usually say, some Councillors sometimes refuse progressive which can take this country somewhere. Mr to retire from the Council because if one thinks of Speaker, let me indicate from the onset that I love this retiring they think of the expenses they incurred, in committee… fact the assets they owned before being a Councillor are no longer there because he has turned into a funeral HONOURABLE MEMBER: Where are you from? undertaker, ambulance; everything that is needed at the MR HIKUAMA: From Botswana Congress Party area is upon him. (BCP). Let us look at the committee. I believe it should improve I love this committee and I believe it will review the conditions of service of Councillors, Member of important working conditions of those listed before, Parliament and Dikgosi so that they can enjoy their job

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and perform to their level best without being hindered on what should be eaten and then you also advocate for by any other reasons which can impact on one’s yourself… even when you are not greedy, when you have performance. The committee should look into these been given the opportunity to dish for yourself, you are things. If it can do that, I will see that we are on the right the one who is dishing there, and you can decide to dish track and we are trying to improve service delivery. less food for other people and dish more for yourself. That is why I am pleased with this committee as it will Mr Speaker, we should take this field as a project. A take away the burden of having conflict of interest when project is not a permanent venture as the Vice President it comes to this. You may even dish less food for yourself has been in the same field for 40 years. We should take because you fear what people will say without looking it as a project, make your mark, go! You can only leave at the job you are doing. I believe that if this committee if you perform it within a short period of time. If you is given its job and they work accordingly, it will be able do not perform it briefly and due to some reasons, you to consider what a Member of Parliament needs and will keep refusing to retire and you make it seem like does not need. What a Kgosi deserves and what they do you are the only one in the country who can represent not deserve and what a Councilor deserves, considering people. That is why I believe that, if this committee can the nature of their work. That is why I am saying, I be established, it will help improve the conditions of fully support this committee, not what we have been service which will results in good performance. doing. We should realise that in Parliament like I have Mr Speaker, let me also concur with all those who already said earlier, constituencies need the services of mentioned that other Dikgosi should be included. I Members of Parliament, and this service requires a lot heard my friend Honourable Segokgo say, the list will of things because if you can look into this, Members now be endless. Dikgosi is a defined boundary, there is of Parliament give a voice to diverse perspective on a nothing confusing there. I do not know that if he says it society. So if that is the case, that means that they are is confusing does he mean there is no defined boundary diverse on their own. If we look at all these things, they because in my view it is clear what Kgosi does. can provide the package they need to do their job better. I believe that I was willing to be brief Mr Speaker or use The other thing I believe we should consider when we my entire time, and I want to give others a chance by review this Bill is the issue of the composition of the supporting this Motion. committee. This committee like we have already said, I am also forced to be pleased that, if it could have HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation competent and ethical people, who have good behaviour, who are not greedy, people who are reserved and the MR HIKUAMA: I yield. way they have been mentioned, I believe that they fit HONOURABLE MEMBER: Do you allow me Mr in that category. I also wish that among these people Speaker? that have already been mentioned, there should also be those who focus on employee issues, federations, they MR SPEAKER: Yes sir. should have a representative in these committees. When we talk about remunerations and conditions of service, MR BOKO: Thank you Mr Speaker, good morning. people from workers unions are experts. If we can tap Honourable Member, when I listened to you I heard you from their wisdom, their experience, we can improve talk about issues that affect our Magosi, and you also the work of this committee. talked about the conditions of service. You indicated that you really support that their salaries should be Mr Speaker, those are the points I wanted to support reviewed. Let me commend you on that one, I really this Motion or Bill with. It is fitting today Honourable agree with you that our Magosi have for a longtime Members that…even though you hear people say that, not been given the respect they deserve. I do not know members of Domkrag (Botswana Democratic Party) if you know that there are some Magosi struggle with never agree with anyone, we do agree and we believe communication because they do not have cell phones to that that that is a good thing, because last time when call other Magosi when there are cases or when they need we talked about the things we discussed in Parliament, to contact the leadership of the village like Members I said that it is impossible for me to support the amount of Parliament and Councilors. You moved on to the of money that I should be given. This will relief of the second issue that, in my constituency I have Magosi or burden of being responsible for making the decisions Dikgosi who have not been paid their salaries. There is

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a Kgosi that has about two years without any form of I heard someone earlier on say that, sometimes it is just payment. How can that kind of issue be responded to an issue of one running their life politically. If you look in order to give Magosi the respect they deserve? It is at things properly, in rural areas, the conditions that heartbreaking and it is a shame that, in my constituency Councilors and Members of Parliament work under, there is a Kgosi who has not been paid a salary in over sometimes force them to share their salaries with the two years. Thank you. public. When they consider the situations these people find themselves in, situations of poverty, poor health, MR HIKUAMA: Thank you Honourable Member. due to being compassionate one will be forced to dig Those are situations I believe that this committee into their own pockets. So just imagine a Councilor will consider all the conditions in which Dikgosi are who has to go to the village every day to see people subjected to, and that those conditions are good for or maybe they are closer to them and they go to them their welfare and dignity. Right now even in terms of every day to request different things from them. We employment of engagement, I think it really has to look see these things as Members of Parliament, we have into it. Right now many Dikgotla have no Dikgosi as we the experience where every day we receive calls from speak, their contracts have ended, and they are around people requesting for food or money for school fees 64, 61, 50 years. We have been waiting for someone and other things. Those are things that I really think that who may think of renewing their contracts so that they this committee will consider extensively, as to whether can continue doing their job. These things are not good they require to be improved and if so, how can they be for the dignity of our Dikgosi. Even the situation where improved. they work for two years and they are not been able to be paid, those are things I think this committee will try If I look at the experts who have come up with this Bill to tackle as it will come up with clauses that will tell whom the Minister presented before us, it shows that us what to do in those kind of situations Honourable these are people who are knowledgeable in certain skills. Member. Thank you. If we could find someone who is qualified in political MR PULE (MOCHUDI EAST): Thank you Mr matters, we are saying such a person has to know where Speaker. We are just going to keep on saying the same Members of Parliament and Councillors work and their thing, but I want to support the Bill that has been put conditions of service. before us by Minister for Office of the President and say this Bill is very important. Really, just like the others, I If we have someone looking at Bogosi, they should want to be brief in my debate. I just want to explain that be...(interruptions)...someone who knows how Bogosi circumstances…let me just start by saying we should not works, which means all those issues which will be mix issues when we speak. We are saying we consider dealing with Bogosi, or the conditions of service of that Members of Parliament and Councilors and other Bogosi, they would give guidance about them. affected parties, are now paid better salaries. I think In addition, if we have an expert who knows about this issue is not really centered on salaries like someone Human Resource and Finance, they will also consider was saying. This issue is centered upon situations or the salaries of Members of Parliament, Councillors and conditions that Honourable Members work under, as we Magosi. I believe those people with their independent know what is happening. Some of us who stay at rural minds and skills, will improve these conditions because areas with our Councilors, we are facing challenges. they are… People who stay with their Magosi out there, are also facing challenges. They work under unfavorable Mr Speaker, Members of Parliament and Councillors, conditions. I am talking about Magosi, the members those who came before us are in extreme poverty. Poverty of Ntlo ya Dikgosi. Their conditions, if you really look that is heart breaking and they no longer have dignity. In into them, you will find that they do not provide them fact as we were saying, I do not think we are advocating with the dignity they deserve. Even the conditions that for ourselves, because as someone was saying, our job Councilors work under, they do not provide them with is on a contract basis; a five year contract. After five the dignity they deserve, and that is sad. Even if you can years when you look at the track record behind you, think about what Honourable Triple P was saying and you should see it being dignified because the conditions just look at the Councilors and Members of Parliament you were working in would be better as someone was who came before us, the way they live at the moment is talking about cell phones or whatever. These are things not good at all. Sometimes it is really sad and shameful. we should see how they could be done. We are not

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saying we should be given everything as the electorates this committee has been set up, it should refer to the sometimes say that we want to grab everything. past commissions, as to what they did, their findings and what their resolutions were. If I may give an example The truth is that, when we see certain situations in the of the Commission that was led by the former Chief villages, we are moved to feel sympathy, and eventually Justice, Mr Dibotelo, it had everything which if by then you have to share your money with the nation. We find we had implemented its findings, by now we could not ourselves sharing our money with people out there be talking as we are, lamenting that those who came because when you see a situation someone is living in, before us, their lives are not in good shape. you cannot just ignore it. You have to put your hand deep in the pocket. When Christmas time comes and The main issue, which is also heart breaking is that when you look at such families, some of them are not even you focus on a Councillor, they are always with people able to buy rice, which is a Christmas staple. One would on a day-to-day basis. The challenges that people are be obliged to put their hand in their pocket to try and facing in the constituency are seen by the Councillor, assist such families so that those families would live like and they have no choice. Every time where possible, other families as well. These are things that one can say, he has to assist such people. You can imagine a parent ‘we cannot help it.’ We have to do them Mr Speaker. saying a child is not going to school because they have Those are the things we are saying should be reviewed, not paid the bus fare. Those of us who stay in Thamaga and be considered through the technical knowhow, and and our children attend school in Moshupa, they paid maybe such situations would change. around P350.00 or P400.00 in combis which transport them to school daily. If a parent of that sort comes to There is nothing much I want to say Mr Speaker. I also you as a Councillor requesting for money to pay for rise here to support this Bill. All the work is not done by transport, and that their child did not go to school, us; it will be done by the relevant people so that it will because they cannot blatantly say give me; they would not look like we want to hoard everything. I like what say, “lend me, I will pay you back,” and you would be Honourable Brooks said that we should not just look fully aware that this parent works at Ipelegeng. You around Botswana; we should consider the situations in would be aware that they would be engaged at Ipelegeng which other countries in Southern African Development after five months because there is rotation. What are Community (SADC) are in. If we are above other they going to pay you with? It would just be a polite countries, the committee should see where it can way of saying please assist my child. If you are someone cut so that we would be at par with others. If we are who is compassionate about other people’s lives, you below, the committee has to see where it could increase are obliged to do something. so that again we would be at par with others. That is the most important thing, but we can see the situation These people are more than the number you can imagine of Councillors in constituencies, it is disheartening. in a constituency. Maybe we are lucky because most of the time we are in Gaborone, they spend time in the villages; they come When we start it, I know that the Dibotelo Commission across families in dismal situations, some of them would had recommended that the salary for a Councillor should be literally run-down, and the poor men and women are be 75 per cent of that of a Member of Parliament. That forced to share half a loaf with them. was Dibotelo’s recommendation. So, if it could have been done like that back then, we would be talking a With these few remarks I thank you Mr Speaker, thank different language today. So, I am saying those who are you, I support the Bill. Thank you. coming in to make a review, should do so properly and see what those who came before them found out, and MR MOTAOSANE (THAMAGA-KUMAKWANE): see what it is they could do which could help. Thank you Mr Speaker. Thank you, I was confused a bit by something this side, technology. Mr Speaker I I would also like to say this committee is coming in at also wanted to comment on this issue. I am going to a time when we are under attack. In the past when the be as brief as I can. I would like to start by thanking public service employees were given something even the Honourable Minister for coming up with this Bill Councillors were given what others were given because because it can remove the doubt from people, that when there was no board to do these things. Now we are in Parliament does things, they do themselves favours. I trouble because they believe in the year that has passed, would like to make a request to the Minister that once when they were still waiting for this committee to be set

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up, they could have been given a little something similar MR MOTAOSANE: Thank you. Moving on from to what was given to each public service employee, so that issue Mr Speaker, I would also like to talk about that when the commission comes to do their task by Dikgosi. I heard some Honourable Members talking the time they start operating, they should not say they about this issue, and they did not present it as it is. I should start being paid from that day. This situation would like us to take this issue as it appears in writing. would not be as low as we are seeing things turning When we talk about Dikgosi, we are referring to Dikgosi out to be. Maybe you should look at it from that angle across the board, you cannot single them out and say because on budget it has come up that we are hoping so and so. Equally if you can pay attention, when you they would receive the 6 per cent just like everyone. talk about Chief Justice and these Specified Officers, there are Magistrates, but you cannot see Magistrate Maybe the other thing I can request to be done here is… under that category, they get their dues accordingly as HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation. civil servants. That is a slight difference that we should assess, we should not pollute it by adding unnecessary MR MOTAOSANE: Honourable Lucas, I will yield things to what the Bill is saying, let us focus on what the for you my elder brother, let me conclude this one Bill is saying. first. The other things that I wish could be reviewed when you talk about conditions of service, Honourable Perhaps one thing that one should focus on is small Members, conditions of service should not only mean villages and ensure that, dikgosi in those areas are that you have certain allowances. Where you work, also considered and more posts created like headsman for example, Members of Parliament are not able to just like in Kumakwane. It seems like the poor person service constituencies accordingly because of transport. is overwhelmed with work and it is even more than That is one of the important issues which have to be the little that he gets. When we assess this issue, it is looked into, this commission should go and look into important for us to consider doing this for these Dikgosi. these issues because they are the very same issues which I will cite one Kgosi in Leologane; once in my tour as a later on make it seem like someone failed to do the Councillor, I found one Kgosi of Leologane settlement rightful thing, even though vehicles are damaged by the which is declared by the government, the settlement is environment they use. When they complete their five recognised but Kgosi of that settlements is a Herdsman year term, that is if they would have not been voted, of Arbitration. Let us assess these things, and ensure they would become so poor. These are the issues that that we do away with them where necessary, he should we have to look into, we should look at what Members be a Kgosi and not a Headman of Arbitration in an of Parliament and councillors are doing when it comes independent settlement like that one. So that he does to issues of transport. It is one of the issues that I wish not miss opportunities which are rightfully his, while could be looked into thoroughly when we revise these carrying out his duties. conditions. I would like to yield for your point of elucidation Honourable Lucas. Lastly I would like to tell the Minister that, I wish we could have seen the terms of reference for this MR LUCAS: On a point of elucidation. Thank you commission. So that we can see what is happening Honourable Motaosane, you raised the very same issue because it does not mean that when the commission which Councillors are raising, in fact it is even talked makes recommendations the President will accept about across the board, both Councillors of the ruling them; we should be mindful of that. A recommendation part and opposition. They are saying the same thing is a recommendation, according to the assessment when they meet us, “Yes, we do hear that a committee is of the government, or how the President sees the going to be set up but there is the six percent increment recommendations of the commission, we should have which we were also supposed to get as Councillors placed ourselves in a position where we either agree but we did not get it’’, it seems like councillors are or not, but that is what the recommendation would be disadvantaged” This is a very important issue, the saying. We should not take it otherwise, we should Minister should ensure that what Councillors deserve, consider the fact the government would be looking at which can improve their situation should not be left what is there on the ground. behind as we would be talking about the committee. Honourable, you mentioned that they are saying they With these words, I would like to say, the purpose of also deserve to get the 6 per cent increment which other this commission is to support the Minister, and it will public servants received. Thank you. no longer appear as if we are advocating for ourselves. I

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would like to request that when it comes to Councillors, awarded to one contractor on the 2nd May, 2017 the Dibotelo Commission recommendation should and was terminated because of failure to honour be implemented, I do not know the recommendation contractual obligations on the 25th September, number but it is there. It says that the remuneration of 2018. Following that termination Mr Speaker, the Councillor should be 75 per cent of what the Member other bidders who had passed the technical stage of Parliament (MP) is getting. Thank you Mr Speaker. were shortlisted for re-tendering. The second award was on the 9th September, 2019. It was challenged MR SPEAKER: Order! Order, Honourable Members! by other bidders. The Independent Complaints Honourable Member, you will proceed at 2 p.m, after Review Committee then awarded the tender to questions. You still have ...(Inaudible)… to your credit. a third bidder. The award was then challenged Honourable Members, let us adjourn and try to be back through the High Court and was awarded to a at 2 p.m. to continue. Thank you very much, the House fourth bidder. The matter is not closed as other is adjourned. bidders are planning to challenge the High Court’s PROCEEDINGS SUSPENDED AT 1:05 P.M. FOR decision through the Court of Appeal. APPROXIMATELY 58 MINUTES (iv) Mr Speaker, as highlighted in my answer in (iii), PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 2:03 P.M. the matter is still pending with the Judiciary, making it difficult to say it was ruled in favour QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER or against Government at this stage. The cost implications likewise, have not been calculated as BITUMEN ROAD CONSTRUCTION TENDERS the matter is pending with the courts. However, MR O. REGOENG (MOLEPOLOLE NORTH): the cost of supervision consultants to Government asked the Minister of Transport and Communications to is huge Mr Speaker. I thank you. apprise this Honourable House on: MR REGOENG: Supplementary. Minister, I hear your (i) the number and value of bitumen road construction response. It seems this issue where tenders after being tenders floated and awarded in the last two years; awarded, are then challenged at court is becoming very common. So, I do not know how much your ministry (ii) how many were awarded to Batswana owned is doing going forward that when a tender has been companies and at what value; awarded to one then it should remain thus. I do not (iii) the number of tender award decisions challenged know if this issue starts from the office or it is started through the courts of law, and the reasons thereto; by contractors outside. However, the main thing is, how and much are you doing to ensure that these issues are no longer raised? This is because people now believe that (iv) how many were ruled in favour of, and against for a tender to be believed to be credible, it is when it Government and what were the associated is challenged first. None gets awarded without anyone monetary cost implications. suspecting that something is wrong with it and this is costly to Government. Honourable Minister, how much MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND are you doing to ensure that these things stop? COMMUNICATIONS (MR SEGOKGO): Thank you Mr Speaker. Secondly, the tenders awarded Batswana, the amount is not even half of the P1.9 billion allocated. Why does it (i) Mr Speaker, my ministry has floated and awarded seem that those awarded foreign nationals are more than five bitumen road construction tenders in the last those awarded Batswana? Thank you. two years under the Development Budget. The value of the tenders awarded is P1,939,787,932.05. MR SEGOKGO: Thank you Honourable Regoeng. This one on challenging tenders through the courts is (ii) Of these five, two were awarded to Batswana owned something that worries me very much Honourable companies at an amount of P615,827,802.47. Regoeng. You will recall that time and again Honourable (iii) Out of the five tenders awarded, one was Minister of Finance has indicated how we wish to amend challenged through the courts of laws. The the Public Procurement and Asset Disposal Board reasons are as follows; the project was originally (PPADB) Act to counter this challenge. We are also

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doing our best to ensure that our tendering processes are very high. All these court cases, the information would followed according to the Act to avoid these situations. have leaked from your office Honourable Minister. I do We have realised that there are some who through their not know when we are going to see an end to this. How powers can look through tenders without our invitation. are you going to change? I thank you Mr Speaker. We are trying to do everything by the book to avoid the situation that we are talking about. MR SEGOKGO: Thank you Honourable Moabi. No, I did not entirely deny that we are partly to blame. I was Sometimes these cases stem from PPADB. We would just trying to show what we are doing at the ministry. I have completed our part and handed over to them to also indicated that there are several stakeholders who continue. I am trying to show that we are trying our best are involved in these things. You raised two points, I that when we award tenders, all due processes would accept and agree with you that one of the reasons is have been followed so that we may not find ourselves the inability to supervise projects properly. What I can involved in those cases where due protocols were not indicate, let me give an example of Tshesebe-Masunga followed on our part. project which I know worries you greatly. It was awarded and we realised that those who won it were You spoke about tenders I mentioned. Yes, it is true underperforming, then we stopped it. What we do as a that the amount that we are talking about is somewhere ministry, sometimes we delay this process so that we around a third or above a third of the total amount can find someone to replace them. This causes more of tenders that I mentioned. I will use an example to damage than trying to fix the problem caused by the illustrate which roads tenders were awarded Batswana. contractor because they charge more money to finish the This will show reasons why we have not allocated project. I am trying to show that these things happened some to Batswana. We awarded Tshesebe/Masunga and to Tshesebe-Masunga project. I agree with your point Mosu/Thalamabele roads tenders to Batswana from the to supervise projects. Maybe I did not clarify it. We are five I mentioned. We also awarded road tenders which trying our level best to ensure that we fight against it. were design, build and transfer of the intersections of Greater Gaborone. Again, we awarded design, build I can tell you that, that is what I usually emphasise and transfer of the separated intersections of Gaborone whenever my ministry holds a meeting every week. We Western bypass. The third one was Mabeleapudi/ have set target for all of them to give us plans regarding Tshimoyapula/Serule. I am trying to illustrate through when they intend to supervise each one of our projects. these that sometimes the reasons were caused by the This way, I will have a chance to assess these projects as gravity of the projects awarded. Sometimes it is due to well as note those that are lagging behind. They know the fact that you cannot divide them in such a way that that we need these projects to be completed and the they can also be awarded to locals due to inflated prices. results of that to the nation.

The most unfortunate thing we have noted which The last one on corruption; sometimes our staff make prevents local companies from doing these projects is mistakes. They sometimes tell some people our issues lack of bonds. We even tried to come up with a strategy as a way of assisting them. I believe that is true even in one of the projects that will be awarded of dividing though I cannot give evidence to support that. We are them to give them an opportunity to get involved so already dealing with some cases to prosecute and pass that it can be seen that they are doing a good job. So, sentences on some who made us to have problems with we have realised that sometimes when we divide these some companies. In some instances, you will note that projects, our development budget increases. That is our they exercised some powers to make decisions which obstacle that I can cite Honourable Member. Thank you. have nothing to do with them. I therefore agree with that Honourable. MR MOABI: Supplementary. Thank you Mr Speaker. Honourable Minister, I hear your explanation although CONSTRUCTION OF LERALA HOSPITAL your answer is not satisfactory. Honourable Minister, MR C. GREEFF (GABORONE BONNINGTON your ministry is partly to blame for the delay of road SOUTH): asked the Minister of Health and Wellness: projects. I do not know if you are aware of that. What part is it playing Mr Speaker? Your staff never (i) if he does not consider it strategic and of absolute supervises projects which are built. Again when you necessity to speed up the construction of Lerala look at your ministry Mr Minister, it seems corruption is Hospital as a way of decongesting the Palapye

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Primary Hospital and to some extent Selebi Phikwe Constituency; that is one mother clinic with Hospital, as the situation is further compounded surrounding health posts. Each cluster has by the COVID-19 pandemic; two vehicles rotating between all the facilities within each cluster. In respect of deployment, (ii) if he is aware that almost all clinics and health one ambulance is placed at each mother clinic, posts in the Lerala-Maunatlala Constituency are while the other covers other facilities within the operating without ambulances or any kind of catchment areas. vehicle, if so how many and what he intends to do to remedy the situation; and (iii) My ministry will continue to apply the national model for assessing and forecasting development (iii) to apprise this Honourable House on his plans and needs for localities. Accordingly, future health vision for the constituency, given the desperate developments for the Lerala-Maunatlala health situation in the constituency compounded Constituency will be based on demographic and by COVID-19 pandemic as residents now service utilisation factors. desperately feel left out in the health development loop. Mr Speaker, we do not anticipate rapid population growth in that particular geographic area (including ASSISTANT MINISTER OF HEALTH AND the constituency under discussion), because of WELLNESS (MR LELATISITSWE): Thank you, sir. the fast development of Palapye Township. We Let me also thank the Honourable Member of Gaborone will plan and deliver accordingly Mr Speaker, as for remembering my fellow people at Tswapong where Parliament gives us funds to do that. Thank you I come from. Mr Speaker.

(i) We concur with the logic of the Honourable MR GREEFF: Supplementary. Thank you Honourable Member that; it would be strategic to construct Speaker. Thank you Minister for that response. Minister, a level 1 primary hospital in Lerala, in light of I completely understand you on the basis that Lerala the rapid population growth in that constituency. hospital was deferred because of financial constraints However, and even if planned for, any such even though it was included in NDP 11. The question construction has to be deferred because of financial therefore is, do you not think it is necessary for you as a constraints. The COVID-19 pandemic, which the Minister to go to Lerala village and update people about Honourable Member refers to has, unfortunately, this hospital since they were expecting it? also contributed to deferment of projects across Government sectors. Secondly Minister, there is a village located next to Lerala which is called Mokobeng. A Health Post was (ii) I am aware of the critical shortage of ambulances in constructed there in 1970. They were also promised to facilities across the country, not just in the Lerala- construct a clinic which have a maternity ward since it is Maunatlala Constituency. This is a problem that already a big village. When going to Lerala, do you not we are actively addressing and expecting to abate think it is necessary to include Mokobeng to also update shortly, but certainly, by the end of the first quarter them in terms of when to expect a clinic which was long of financial year 2021/2022. promised to them? I thank you. At this stage, I am not in a position to share any MR LELATISITSWE: Thank you so much Mr numbers, but can assure this August House that Speaker and thank you Honourable Member. Indeed, it we are in the process of curing the problem with is clear that moseka phofu ya gaabo ga a swe lentswe. a combination of new ambulances and restoring This means, those fighting for what rightfully belongs part of the existing fleet with assistance from the to them never give up. He has remembered where he Central Transport Organisation (CTO). This is come from. Mr Speaker, I believe all of us as Members an exercise, which will affect 18 District Health of Parliament are working together towards National Management Teams (DHMTs) across the country. Development Plan (NDP) and we were also contributing Currently, ambulances are placed strategically towards Mid-Term Review. We were all part of the for efficient utilisation within the constituency. package that was involved in the deferment of projects. There are three clusters in the Lerala-Maunatlala As we conduct meetings at Lerala and civil servants who

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serve there… I will encourage them to start conducting (iii) Plumbing and pipe fitting - 120 meetings in those areas. They will update people about (a) Auto-mechanics - 87 projects which have been approved by the ministry going forth, all of them including those associated to (b) Welding and fabrication - 100 clinic or heath post at Mokobeng. (c) Electrical installation and appliance - 113 It is Government intention to upgrade all the Health posts found in this country into clinics. We will (d) Bricklaying and plastering – 50 keep upgrading them one by one every year when Parliament fund us. We appreciate this question by the (e) Carpentry and joinery - 48 Honourable Member. I can see he is very serious about (iii) I am aware that Madiba Brigade is operating his constituency. This is a clear indication that you have within Madiba Secondary School premises, and I their best interests at heart and we thank you for that sir. agree with the Honourable Member that there is no room for further expansion by the brigade. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Are you really going to Lerala? Will; you really go there to update them? (iv) Mr Speaker, I am aware that Madiba Brigade has a plot in Mahalapye, plot 4659. The construction MR LELATISITSWE: Yes sir, I will surely go to of the Madiba Brigade at the plot aforesaid is not Lerala. catered for in the National Development Plan STATUS OF MADIBA BRIGADE (NDP) 11 due to budgetary constraints. Therefore, the development of the plot will be considered MR D. TSHERE (MAHALAPYE WEST) asked for inclusion in future NDPs. I also Mr Speaker, the Minister of Employment, Labour Productivity and need to draw the Honourable Member’s attention Skills Development to state: to the fact that currently there are three vocational training institutions within a radius of less than (i) the number of courses currently offered at Madiba 100 kilometres (km) from Mahalapye, being Brigade in Mahalapye; Mahalapye Brigade itself, Shoshong Brigade (ii) how many students graduated from Madiba and Palapye Technical College. Therefore, in Brigade in the last 10 years; the interim Mr Speaker, while we are waiting to include development of the new plot in the (iii) if he is aware that Madiba Brigade is currently plan, candidates may enroll in any of the three housed at Madiba Secondary School and institutions that I have just mentioned. I thank you therefore, there is no space for expansion or Mr Speaker. further development; and MR TSHERE: Supplementary. Thank you Mr (iv) if he is aware that Madiba Brigade has been Speaker, I also thank Honourable Serame for acting allocated a new plot in Mahalapye; if so when is for Honourable Balopi on this question. Honourable he planning to construct the Madiba Brigade at the Minister, at Mahalapye, there is a pilot project about allocated plot. technological solar radiation and its studies, they were piloted in Mahalapye for the first time as one of the ACTING MINISTER OF EMPLOYMENT, areas where there was piloting. Students had to drop LABOUR PRODUCTIVITY AND SKILLS off from school when that course was suspended and DEVELOPMENT (MS SERAME): Thank you Mr waited for it to be re-introduced. When you listed the Speaker and good afternoon Honourable Members. courses offered at Mahalapye, you did not include it. (i) Madiba Brigade currently offers six programmes; I know that you piloted it and even bought equipment. Auto Mechanics, Carpentry and Joinery, Mahalapye was not included when that equipment was Bricklaying and Plastering, Electrical Installation, bought but we never complained because we assumed Plumbing and Pipe Fitting as well as Welding and that since we were piloting, we have that equipment. Fabrication; However, today you are not mentioning that solar systems and related courses are offered at Madiba (ii) In the last 10 years, a total of 518 students Brigade. Explain that situation. Furthermore, if you are graduated across all six programmes: unable to explain it here, I will gladly accept a written

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response so that I can submit to Madiba Brigade. Why for when it is now included officially in the curriculum. can you not offer solar related courses because they are Nonetheless like you say Honourable Member, I will go the most popular at Mahalapye and it is our future as the and research further details on this particular one, I will country and Umbrella for Democratic Change (UDC). give you feedback. Thank you Mr Speaker. The other supplementary relating to the second question which I asked about Mahalapye is; Mahalapye Brigade ACCESSING LEARNING FACILITIES was supposed to be upgraded to a Vocational Training MR S. N. MOABI (TATI WEST): asked the Minister Centre (VTC) level, which will be established at plot of Basic Education if he is aware that there are some 4659. I hear you say they can enrol in other institutions children who have to travel more than seven kilometers within a close range but this school caters for Mahalapye to access learning facilities such as those in Maenjani Sub-District from Dibete to Tewane. I wonder if you and Pelaelo. are aware that this is a challenge for parents if students enrol at distant institutions where they do not have ASSISTANT MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION accommodation and other necessities. If you say future (MS MAKWINJA): Thank you Mr Speaker, thank you development, it is not clear because it is in Mahalapye Honourable. We are aware that there are some children Development Plan 2032. Explain if you are going to who travel a few kilometres to school and one of those prioritise it in NDP 12. Thank you. schools are the ones mentioned by the Honourable Member of Maenjani and Pelaelo. Mr Speaker, this MS SERAME: Thank you Mr Speaker, thank you issue of children travelling long distances to school is Honourable Member. Thank you for responding to the our huge concern as the ministry because it is not only last supplementary as you indicated that in Mahalapye in those two schools, there are many other areas as well. Development Plan 2032, it means it has not yet been We are making tremendous efforts because we have covered. I explained in my response to question four started sourcing funds from the Development Budget, that it is not even catered for in the current NDP 11 to to try and build boarding facilities to accommodate develop that plot. We will consider it in the next one children. For example, in this financial year, we have which is NDP 12. Currently, I am not in a position to picked a few and two will be considered in the NDP 12 inform you that it will be prioritised over other projects which we are left with a few months before embarking but I can assure you that as projects will be reviewed, it on. We are not assuring when they will be available but will also be reviewed. it is our priority when the funds are available. Thank Secondly, I agree with you that the reason I mentioned you. three vocational institutions is because due to budgetary MR MOABI: Supplementary. Thank you Mr constraints, we are unable to develop the plot. In the Speaker. I hear you Minister although your response interim whilst observing the situation we can place the is unsatisfactory. It is not a small distance as you students in those three technical colleges. I understand indicate, I am talking about seven kilometres to travel that situation Honourable Member. Our goal is to to school and seven kilometres to return so children improve the one for Mahalapye so that it can cater better travel 14 kilometres. The thing which mostly saddens and enrol all those in the sub region which you have me is that you indicate that there are schools which been talking about. had an opportunity. One might wonder that as we The first supplementary question was about a pilot travel 14 kilometres according to my own research project and I agree with you on this one that I will and knowledge there are no schools like these ones. look for a written response for you. However, what Furthermore, Maenjani is a gravel. Minister, do you I can say today is that you put it well when you said not think it is opportune for the Government to perhaps it was a pilot project. While it was still a pilot, it was provide transport for children to be driven to and from still not introduced in the curriculum. After completing school? Minister, you might realise that the results of a pilot there are certain procedures which have to be these two schools are unsatisfactory but after that we undertaken that upon completion of the pilot these are expect children to pass when a child wakes up at three the lessons, recommendations, now it is part of the to prepare to go to school and at four starts the journey curriculum. When you do that, you also have to be back home and arrives home at nine at night. When does prepared with the resources so that if it becomes fully he/she read Minister? Minister, do something. Thank a part of the courses offered, providing those resources, you.

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MS MAKWINJA: Thank you Honourable Member. and volunteer programmes. However, I have You are raising valid points and those are our biggest to state that some of these programmes do not concerns in our country. In terms of the transport primarily provide employment but do help to issue, Honourable Members are aware that there was a alleviate poetry, promote skills development and suggestion to buy buses to assist children. Since a long inculcate behavior change. Our goal is to build time has passed with no replacement, the ones which a well-rounded young person through social and were available are no longer there as they are dilapidated. economic empowerment initiatives. Programmes This is one of the suggestion we were considering when like YDF are meant to promote initiative and self- discussing your question. The problem is there are employment. Job creation is the responsibility no funds to cater for that. As I assure the Honourable of both Government and the private sector, but Member, we are going to make tremendous efforts to notwithstanding, the ministry will continue with analyse and see how we can assist the children who its role of advocacy for the young people as well are suffering as we already have a programme to build as coming up with new initiatives to create jobs houses to accommodate them. We have heard you for them. Honourable Member. (ii) 186 projects have been funded in Mochudi East HIGH UNEMPLOYMENT RATE IN MOCHUDI Constituency since inception and most of these EAST projects are in the agricultural sector. (iii) Out of the 186 funded projects, 138 projects are MR M. M. PULE (MOCHUDI EAST): asked operational and have created 185 jobs to date. the Minister of Youth Empowerment, Sport and Culture Development if he is aware that there is (iv) 48 projects have collapsed mainly due to stiff high unemployment rates amongst young persons in competition from well established businesses and Mochudi East Constituency with the highest being in in some cases youth abandon projects to seek other Sikwane village; and If so: opportunities such as training and employment in part owing to completion in business, drought and (i) what is he doing to address this situation; adequate markets for their goods. I thank you very (ii) how many young persons have applied for projects much Mr Speaker. through the Youth Development Fund (YDF); MR PULE: Supplementary. My supplementary is a (iii) how many are operating; and brief one Honourable Speaker, I want to request the Minister that, since now he knows that I am facing a (iv) how many are not operational and why not. challenge at Mochudi East, if I invite him to come to the constituency to appreciate the problems we have, will MINISTER OF YOUTH EMPOWERMENT, he come? SPORT AND CULTURE DEVELOPMENT (MR RAKGARE): Thank you very much Mr Speaker, MR RAKGARE: Mr Speaker, I thank the Member thanks to Honourable Pule for the question. Mr Speaker, of Parliament a lot. Honourable Pule, if our schedule I am aware that there is a high unemployment, not only allows that, we will go there. We have already done in the Mochudi East Constituency but throughout the that in different constituencies, and before the end of country particularly among the young people. this month we will be in other constituencies. We are always available to see what is happening and we accept (i) Mr Speaker, while youth unemployment is not those invites. In fact, that is important Honourable Pule, the sole responsibility of the Ministry of Youth because it is necessary for us to physically see how Empowerment, Sport and Culture Development, I these projects are doing and talk to this youth. Then we wish to indicate that the ministry has come up with see how we can assist those who have collapsed, what a number of programmes to empower our young their challenges were and how we need to fix things and people. These empowerment programmes include so on. We also encourage those who are doing well, and flagship programmes in the areas of arts and we request the good things that we can share with others culture, sport and youth development such as the whose businesses might not be doing well, so that we YDF, constituency sport tournament, constituency can continue to assist our youth with skills and support arts competitions, President day competitions their businesses, so they can be able to hire their age

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mates and generate income for themselves. Thank you and other international issues which require the Honourable Member. active involvement of Heads of State.

ENVOYS (iv) Members of Parliament (MP’s) are allowed to engage with the Heads of Diplomatic Missions MR J. L. THIITE (GHANZI NORTH): asked the and International Organisations, including Minister of International Affairs and Cooperation to those resident and non-resident representatives state: accredited to this Republic. However, all requests (i) the difference between an envoy and a special for official engagement with these diplomats envoy; should be routed through the Ministry of International Affairs and Cooperation. Similarly, (ii) the number of Permanent Foreign Missions in requests by Heads of Foreign Missions to meet Botswana; with Members of Parliament (MPs) are to be routed the same way. I thank you Mr Speaker. (iii) what are the common issues handled by special envoys; and MR THIITE: No further supplementary Mr Speaker.

(iv) the procedure followed for foreign envoys to MR SPEAKER: Thank you very much. engage with Members of Parliament. SHOSHONG PRIMARY HOSPITAL ACTING MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL MR A. LESASO (SHOSHONG): asked the Minister AFFAIRS AND COOPERATION (MR of Health and Wellness: MTHIMKHULU): Thank you Mr Speaker. (i) why the development of the Shoshong Primary (i) Mr Speaker, an Envoy is a title for an official sent Hospital was removed from the National by his/her own state to work at its Diplomatic Development Plan 11; Mission or Embassy in a foreign country. Previously, an Envoy used to refer exclusively (ii) when he is planning to construct the Shoshong to the Head of a Diplomatic Mission or an Primary Hospital; Ambassador or High Commissioner. Nowadays it refers to any officer who has been appointed to (iii) why did he find it necessary to build two (2) serve in a diplomatic mission below the rank of hospitals at Mahalapye, Serowe and Sefhare; an Ambassador or High Commissioner. Prior to and he could not consider Shoshong for the his/her presentation of credentials to the Head of development of the hospital; and State of the host country, an Ambassador or High (iv) if he is aware that the only clinic in the Shoshong Commissioner can be referred to as an Envoy. Constituency has one room and one bed. We also refer to such as Ambassador-designate or High Commissioner-designate. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF HEALTH AND WELLNESS (MR LELATISITSWE): Thank you Mr (ii) There are currently 23 resident diplomatic Speaker. missions representing foreign Governments and 21 representatives of International Organisations (i) Mr Speaker let me point out that because of in Botswana. insufficient funds, Shoshong Hospital was not able to be included in the Mid-Term Review that (iii) Mr Speaker, a Special Envoy is a high ranking we approved in this House not so long ago. Let official sent by a sitting Head of State to another me also indicate that, when the economic situation Head of State to deliver a special message, usually gets back to normal, Shoshong Hospital will be of an urgent nature, or to make representation on a reviewed just like other hospitals that were not pressing issue of national interest to both parties. included in the development plan or Mid-Term Because Special Envoys are sent by the Head of Review. State, the issues discussed are of high level nature and confidential. They may involve matters of (ii) With the answer I have provided on the first point, bilateral cooperation, national or regional security, I do not have an answer to indicate when the

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hospital will be constructed because we have not Secondly, Mr Speaker, he cannot say Sheleketla is a yet established the next development plan and the clinic, it is a health post. Honourable Minister are you hospital we will review in the next plan. aware that the people of Shoshong use one delivery bed, in the whole constituency? Are you aware that even (iii) Let me point out Mr Speaker, what was considered where you are saying you are building clinics similar when Serowe Hospital and Mahalapye Hospital to the ones in Dibete right now, you are failing to put were built. At the time when these hospitals were a maternity wing that could be assisting the people of built, we were considering congestion or crowding Poloka, Mokgenene and Otse? of people in those hospitals at that time. Then when we considered the places they were in, we found Right now there are two midwives in Kalamare, out that they were small for those hospitals to be and they are not able to assist all the people in the refurbished in those places. That is why we ended constituency because they do not have any work to up building those hospitals where they are. Those do, of delivering babies, there is no...(inaudible)…in are the main reasons we considered. Building Kalamare. So I am saying you should respond to these those hospitals reduced the number of patients questions Honourable Minister; what are the reasons who were referred to places like Francistown, you implored to remove the hospital from Shoshong Nyangabwe and Marina hospitals Mr Speaker. because the people of Shoshong have long waited for Those three hospitals were built in that area. it? It is not only in the Mid-term Review of the National Development Plan (NDP) 11, it is NDP 10, that is (iv) Mr Speaker, let me point out that, we have two where it is coming from. Please answer me with all the clinics at Shoshong, namely Shoshong Clinic seriousness possible Honourable Minister. which has a maternity ward and the other one called Sheleketla Clinic. In fact, those clinics have MR LELATISITSWE: I thank you Mr Speaker. Let places where patients are examined, and all the me point out that in the Mid-term Review or as we were examination rooms have beds where a patient can passing projects, we were looking at the budget we were lie as they are being examined Mr Speaker. given by Parliament. We realised that the budget we had, could be used in projects that have already commenced (v) Also, we have an observation room, where if like the hospitals in Shakawe, Moshupa and other someone is not feeling well, we hold them there clinics that have already been kick-started. This means before deciding whether we are going to take it is going to be a bit hard for those hospitals whose them to Mahalapye or not. From Mahalapye to building has not yet commenced. Those that have plans Shoshong Mr Speaker, is 40 kilometres (km). I like the one in Tutume, are those that managed to be believe we can keep a person there for observation. included in the Mid-term Review, which implemented All these rooms have beds where patients can rest. the hospitals that were already underway. Even at the maternity wing, we have observation rooms Now saying the people of Shoshong are scattered, no where those who are waiting for delivery are kept, we are not saying they are scattered. You had asked why and those who have delivered Mr Speaker. Even the we managed to work on the Serowe, Mahalapye and Sheleketla clinic has the same arrangement Mr Speaker. Sefhare hospitals. My answer was that it was because these people were congested and the places that these Lastly, we refer all patients from this area to the hospitals were, they were not able to be built there. Just Mahalapye District Hospital, which is 40 kilometres like when a time comes to build the one in Shoshong, I away from Shoshong village Mr Speaker. I believe the do not think we are going to build it where the Shoshong Honourable Member of Parliament is aware of these clinic is situated. We are going to relocate it and build it issues Mr Speaker. Thank you. somewhere else. MR LESASO: Supplementary. Mr Speaker, I am Therefore, we do not expect that in future, Thiite would not happy with the answers I am receiving from ask a question to say ‘why did you not build a hospital the Honourable Minister. He says since people are where the Shoshong clinic was situated?’ congested, those of us who are vast as the Shoshong constituency, which he knows very well that it goes as That is the main reason, that the budget you gave us far as Kgalagadi, is he failing to renovate the hospital was enough for the projects that were ongoing, not for us because we are spread out? those ones that were to commence Mr Speaker, not that

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Shoshong does not need a hospital. Shoshong is just like COVID scorpions where they are needed? When are Letlhakane and Mahalapye, we need hospitals there. you going to give a response as to what the position of Government is? MR LESASO: Why are you not building a maternity wing in Dibete? MR MOLALE: I thank you Mr Speaker. In my answer, I said we tried to look for this solution in December, MR LELATISITSWE: Now you have taken over the not after March 31st. That is what I said. So, it shows Speaker’s role. that we were not just idle. I also said a time when we MR SPEAKER: Honourable Members, we have run informed Parliament about the challenge that we had, out of time. We are now moving into Questions Without an error was done at this ministry; an administrative Notice. error. It made us to go and look for such an amount of funds with the intension to engage people at that level. QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE That is the mistake that happened, which I did explain to Parliament when we were at Boipuso Hall. So, right COVID-19 SCORPIONS now there is effort and there has been effort, but I just MR D. SALESHANDO (MAUN WEST): asked the cannot raise the money. That is where the problem Minister of Local Government and Rural Development is, but I am saying I am hopeful. That is what I said to state if there are plans to extend the contracts of Honourable Member. I thank you. employees engaged to curb the spread of the COVID-19 MOVEMENT ARRANGEMENTS FOR PUBLIC virus, such as the COVID-19 Scorpions, given that the SERVICE WORKERS risk of spread is much higher than it was at the time they were engaged. MR G. KEKGONEGILE (MAUN EAST): asked the Minister for Presidential Affairs, Governance and MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND Public Administration to brief this Honourable House RURAL DEVELOPMENT (MR MOLALE): Mr on the movement arrangements of the Public Service Speaker, my ministry continues to engage on this workers during Easter Holidays and further explain: matter given the importance of COVID-19 Scorpions in enforcing compliance to COVID-19 protocols at village (i) whether Public Service workers’ movement will level. Positive impact has been realised by this initiative be prohibited during the 2021 Easter Holidays; and the efforts of these officers in our public institutions if so, under which Act and the specific Section/ through public education and compliance monitoring. Clause;

As Honourable Members are aware, the Scorpions were (ii) why is movement restrictions placed on Public engaged on a fixed term contract of 10 months up to the Service workers only; 31st March 2021. It should be noted that the decision (iii) if Government is placing the burden of escalating to engage Scorpions was made under a constrained COVID-19 repercussions on Public Service fiscal position. The position has not changed and if workers; anything, it has worsened as a result of the pandemic. I am therefore still exploring possible avenues to come up (iv) if not, why Government does not undertake a with a workable solution, given the challenges as well as wholesale national movement restrictions. the rising infections. This effort has been ongoing since December 2020. I am hopeful for a positive solution; I ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL am not saying we have. I thank you Mr Speaker. AFFAIRS, GOVERNANCE AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION (MR MTHIMKHULU): Thank MR SALESHANDO: Supplementary. Mr Speaker, can you Mr Speaker. the Minister state why they waited until the contracts were over, and the officers even left work. Why did Mr Speaker, the movement of public service employees they not decide before the contracts expired? Some was not prohibited during the Easter Holidays, that ministries like Basic Education have extended the is Good Friday of 2nd April and Easter Monday of 5th contracts for the Safety, Health and Environment (SHE) April 2021. However, like anybody else, public officers Officers in schools. Why have they allowed a situation were expected to remain at their duty stations, and whereby we are entering a third day and there are no where exceptional circumstances required travel to

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zones outside of their duty stations, they were required why it is still a requirement to apply for inter-zonal to obtain a valid COVID-19 inter-zonal permit. permits; and there is also a curfew. However, for Approval of applications for leave around the holiday public officers, it is important to note that, their season depended on the existence of exceptional conduct, especially General Obligations and circumstances. Holiday travel has been identified as one Duties provide at General Order 31 that, “it shall of the COVID-19 super spreaders. All these movement be the duty of every public officer to aid and assist restrictions were therefore, one of the many ways by the Government according to the Constitution and which Government intends to minimize the spread of the laws of Botswana.” I thank you Mr Speaker. the disease. MR HIKUAMA: Supplementary. Thank you Mr Speaker, Section 8 of the Public Service Act, Honourable Speaker. Thank you Minister for that 2008 empowers the Permanent Secretary to the answer. In other words, you are saying that PSP invoked President (PSP) to administer the public service. The his powers to block movement of public servants, so was promulgation of Regulations, Rules and General Orders it legitimate for him to stop their movements? Why did is but one of the ways by which he does that. In issuing he feel that the regulation that permits public servants to the restrictions on taking leave, the PSP was acting in apply for permits like everyone is not enough? accordance with Section 8 (2) of the Public Service Act, as read with Public Service General Orders (G.O) 147.1 MR MTHIMKHULU: Maybe you were not following, and 147.3, which state as follows: I said, movements of public officers were still restricted by the COVID-19 regulations, is I was saying … (i) Section 8 of the Public Service Act provides that, (Inaudible)… all inter-zonal travel permits are revoked. “The Permanent Secretary to the President may I believe you are aware of that Honourable Member. So make rules or regulations or give instructions for because of that limitation, any public officer who wanted managing the conduct of the public service.” to travel across zones was prohibited by the COVID-19 regulations, not by the PSP, no. We only wanted public (ii) General Order 147.2 provides that, “Subject to officers to remain at their duty stations at all times, and General Order 147.3, earned leave will normally we did not say … did not apply to the Easter holidays, be granted upon application, but in view of at all times. There are people who are working from the provisions of that paragraph, officers may home as we speak now, and it refers to those people, not assume that applications for leave will that during this time they should know that they are automatically be granted. Exceptions will be made expected to remain within their work stations. It meant in the case of applications for compassionate leave that people who are working from home should remain in emergencies.” at home, that they should not go to the cattle posts while (iii) General Order 147.3 provides that, “Leave is they are expected to be working from home. We were granted according to the exigencies of the service talking about things like that. and thus: When we talk about travels across zones, when you 1. According to sub-regulation Order 147.3.2, travel, you had to have an exceptional reason to do so, leave applied for may be deferred and; because all permits were revoked as you are aware, and by extension it also applies to public servants, that if 2. According to sub-regulation 147.3.3, it they want to travel, they must have exceptional reasons is provided that with the approval of the to do so. Thank you Mr Speaker. Permanent Secretary (PS), an officer may be recalled from leave at any time.” MR SPEAKER: Honourable Members, the rest of the questions will be moved over because of the Standing Mr Speaker, movement restrictions applied to Orders, to the next day. Now Honourable Members, we everyone, and Government would appreciate if the may go back to where we stopped before lunch. private sector and indeed individuals could come up with the same measures for their employees and themselves respectively.

Mr Speaker, the movement restrictions are applicable to all residents of this country. That is

Hansard No 201 25 Tuesday 6th April, 2021 STANDING COMMITTEE ON REMUNERATION (MEMBERS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY, COUNCILLORS, NTLO YA DIKGOSI AND SPECIFIED OFFICERS) BILL, 2021 (NO. 4 OF 2021) Second Reading (Resumed Debate)

STANDING COMMITTEE ON REMUNERATION at Mahalapye asking for P10,000. No, the majority of (MEMBERS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY, people who come to ask for assistance, they are only COUNCILLORS, NTLO YA DIKGOSI AND looking for what they can eat for that day. It is not that SPECIFIED OFFICERS) BILL, 2021 (NO. 4 OF bad. Okay, maybe if they came in large numbers to ask 2021) for that meal of the day, it might look like it is too much. Maybe that is the main reason why former Honourable Second Reading Members and Councillors are poor because it is indeed (Resumed Debate) true that if one is no longer in Parliament, Council or is no longer Kgosi, though I do not understand how, MR SPEAKER: When we broke for lunch, Honourable people still come. I campaigned in the 2014 elections Motaosane was on the floor, he was left with nine and lost but still people came to me because they saw minutes one second. Honourable Motaosane! me as a leader by that time. Our colleagues can establish a committee which can be able to deal with this situation …Silence… and analyse all these things. HONOURABLE MEMBER: He went out Mr Speaker, I must point out that programmes have made things he said that he is rushing to the doctor. easier because I never see anyone approaching me and asking for P10 000.00. No, I never see those people HONOURABLE MEMBER: Can I take the floor Mr because the current Government programmes have Speaker? been made to assist those people. When a person comes MR SPEAKER: I give the floor to Honourable Tshere. crying to you just by virtue of being a human being too, an Honourable Member or Councillor ends up assisting MR TSHERE (MAHALAPYE WEST): Thank forgetting what he or she will eat tomorrow. Tomorrow you very much Mr Speaker. I would like to comment you retire into poverty. I wanted to explain why former briefly on the Bill which proposes that we should have Honourable Members, Councillors and Bogosi are a committee which will focus on issues pertaining to prone to poverty because even after retirement people remunerations of Members of Parliament, Councillors, still look up to you for assistance. Dikgosi and other Specialised Officers. Yes, I support it, in principle that we should not be the ones talking about Mr Speaker, let me focus on the last point. Every these issues. time there is mention of establishing committees or commissions, I always advise on this point that when I heard what the Honourable Members were saying as I you look at composition, already there are six people was listening to the debate, they complain that this is a who are going to make up this committee; politician or mammoth task and that people out there always come to one with knowledge of political matters, Bogosi, Public them to ask for financial assistance, it is indeed true, we Administration or Human Resources (HR), legal expert, are also experiencing the same thing. This leadership financial expert and a retired Judge as Chairman. task, even back in the days when Dikgosi were leaders and were not earning much, we had Dikgafela. The So, my constant worry even in this one, I do not community would hand over their harvest to Kgosi, understand it though it is clear, it is that we would want because the understanding was that after that Kgosi to establish commissions like Honourable Morwaeng would select households which did not have food now wants to establish one. However, when you look at and donate food to them. They were not donating the members, you can easily tell that he is the one who their harvest to Kgosi. The payment system was then will elect them personally. It is not clear in this policy introduced, and the Dikgafela event was stopped. As who is electing these six members, from where, with Kgosi is given payment, people still expect him or her what experience that can guarantee their entry into this to assist them when they are struggling with nothing committee. Mr Speaker, these things are normally not to eat. It is still like that even today, when people clear. Again, it appears as if the Minister is establishing have challenges, they go to Members of Parliament, his own committee. Sometimes it appears as abdication Councillors and Dikgosi to ask for assistance. of responsibility. We call a consultant and ask how we can implement it yet we know so that tomorrow we say I slightly differ with other Members of Parliament, we did that based on the consultant’s advice without no, well I do not know, but I have never seen anyone taking responsibility of implementing that. You will

26 Hansard No 201 Tuesday 6th April, 2021 STANDING COMMITTEE ON REMUNERATION (MEMBERS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY, COUNCILLORS, NTLO YA DIKGOSI AND SPECIFIED OFFICERS) BILL, 2021 (NO. 4 OF 2021) Second Reading (Resumed Debate) wait for a consultant that will be costly to the ministry MR HIKUAMA: Clarification. Thank you Honourable and tomorrow we are told that, as a ministry we are Speaker. Thank you Honourable Member. Honourable implementing the recommendation of Commission, Member, maybe you understand better since you blah, blah. These are some of the things that are causing are from Mahalapye and also this side, therefore you our regression. understand things faster. Since it appears that Dikgosi who are not in Ntlo ya Dikgosi are not covered by the I understand that we cannot discuss this further because Public Service Act, in your view, which commission last time Mahalapye Councillors almost killed me. They is going to carry out their review? We also have some asked me how is it going ever since Parliament agreed of land board staff who I believe do not benefit from that we should no longer use official vehicles which public servants’ increment. Do you not think it will be did not even transport me to Mahalapye, that we will appropriate that they also be covered by this commission? now be given 10 per cent to use our personal vehicles It appears some land board staff did not even get the 6 so that even when we want to go to Mahalapye we can per cent allocated public servants. Which commission travel freely. So, they looked at it as a way of increasing is doing their review if they are not covered by this our salaries in this House while we forgot about them commission? Maybe you have a better understanding as Councillors and Dikgosi yet we know the challenges and communicate better with Honourable Ministers, so they are faced with. This one can come in handy you might have heard something. Thank you. because they have been waiting for it. I told them that Parliament unanimously agreed to establish a Standing MR TSHERE: Thank you Honourable Hikuama from Committee or Commission that will be sent to deal Ngami. When I was reading it, I was just thinking about with these situations and your conditions of service so Dikgosi only now when you clarify it that way, going that you understand them further. Sometimes you will deeper, it becomes clear that most of my Dikgosi in be shocked when you realise how much Honourable Mahalapye are not covered. Like you are saying, it is Members, Councillors and Dikgosi are working. Like something that I wish that the Minister can give to this I said, these things started a long time ago during the committee as another mandate to review those who are times of Dikgafela, taking care of the poor, widows, not paid according to Parliament Special Dispensation, widowers, people with disabilities and so on; that is and establish how they can get their increment. I all vulnerable groups of people in your constituency. understand you when you say some of our Dikgosi who Therefore, as a leader, you cannot ignore them. So, if are not in Ntlo ya Dikgosi are not paid and do not get you take from your pocket, that is why it will not be increment. Honourable Kekgonegile recently asked enough all the time and that causes others to lose hope questions concerning Bogosi that Dikgosi are not paid in you and maybe even not vote for you in the next overtime. They do not get salary increment because they elections. These are the things that we need to address. are said to be Headmen of Arbitration. So a time has come for Honourable Morwaeng to explain how he is Mr Speaker, Honourable Members have raised it. I intending to increase their salaries if at all they are not wanted to clarify that one so that when the Minister regarded as general public service? Let us also increase responds, maybe he should explain who is going to for them when increasing for others. If not, we will be elect these six people, how and using which criteria. It placing them in a disadvantageous position. I usually should not be like what Honourable Gobotswang said pay attention as we debate about it and I end up being that, we know these things. They will come here and distressed because it is going to be a problem if it is like say they want to elect committee members whereas they that. So we must pay attention to it, maybe the Minister have BDP members they want to elect to these posts has to review it. as a reward. This is done to ensure that when elections Earlier on when Vice President (VP) was scolding come, they will have resources that can enable them to Honourable Brooks, I thought he meant that all Dikgosi be competitive. It is just a selfish motive born out of this not under Ntlong ya Dikgosi fall under the Public arrangement which has nothing to do with conditions Service Act in the sense that they are included whenever of service of Honourable Members, Dikgosi and they get 6 per cent increment. I thought so and agreed Councillors. with him. So he was only scolding Honourable Brooks Mr Speaker, with those words, I thank you. I support the to silence him. He was not providing a solution on the Motion to establish a committee that will be responsible basis that since they are not included, even in the Public for this review. Service Act and the one we are discussing, what should

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be done about them? So I agree with you Honourable holistically. This way, we are not going to have another Hikuama that we should review it… Bill next week, requesting us to appoint a committee responsible for land board, Magosi who are not included HONOURABLE MEMBER: All of them, including and others who were not included …(interruptions)… land board staff. at the same time. Mr Speaker, I highly appreciate the MR TSHERE: All of them, including land board staff. opportunity that you gave me. I conclude by highlighting When you look at Village Development Committee that I support this idea. Thank you. (VDC) staff, they never get 6 per cent increment like MR REGOENG (MOLEPOLOLE NORTH): Thank others. Therefore, Minister, I urge you to clarify this you Mr Speaker for giving me the opportunity to issue when responding so that I may also understand. respond to what was presented by Minister Morwaeng. That way, I will be in a better position to also explain I support the document that he presented before us. The them to Mahalapye constituents. Bill to establish a Standing Committee that is going to address those who were listed; their remuneration and MR LUCAS: On a point of clarification. While still conditions of service. I will start by requesting our on the issue of Dikgosi Honourable Member from fellow members to debate with our opponents because Mahalapye West; there is what is called Headmen of many issues have been raised. I believe we will deal Arbitration. These Dikgosi do not even have a payslip with them at our own time. Honourable Tshere has just which may help them to apply for a bank loan. So raised an important issue. We must find where to slot looking at this regulation, is it not proper for it to cover those not included in the Public Service Act nor this Headmen of Arbitration? Dikgosi at large are placed Standing Committee because they are also living in in an unfavourable position and it seems like they are Botswana. They must belong to a certain group that can suffering more than others. On this note, do you have represent them. Apart from that, let us focus on those a plan in place on how they can be assisted? Looking who were listed; Members of the National Assembly, at the document presented before us, is it possible to Councillors, Ntlo ya Dikgosi and Specified Offices. We amend it in such a way that it includes something in their are going to appoint a Standing Committee that is going favour? Something that can help them to get a particular to closely deal with them. treatment indicating that indeed they go to work every morning to serve people. I am saying this because they I appreciate it very much. So if we have that kind of assist and reconcile a lot of people. Dikgotla would be committee, we are not going to have to do everything full if they were not settling disputes at ward levels. So on our own. We will have some who deal with these you must also include them in your debate. issues. In that manner, since you have selected and specified the kind of people you are going to include MR TSHERE: Thank you very much Honourable in that committee, I support you. I believe it is going to Lucas for Bobirwa. I agree with you and Honourable comprise of skilled and knowledgeable men and women Hikuama on this important issue. I also agree with who are going to do a brilliant job without having to be you that Headmen of Arbitration or those Dikgosi supervised. That is a very commendable idea. If we can which do not fall under Ntlo ya Dikgosi are placed in a implement it like you explained, it is greatly going to disadvantageous situation. Headman of Arbitration and benefit us. others do not have salaries. They are placed in a very disadvantageous and terrible situation which greatly Sir, I believe this committee is a solution to the affects them more than others. So this is something that challenges we had. Two years ago, Government agreed we should pay attention to. That is why I am requesting to give people 10 per cent and 6 per cent increments. and encouraging the Minister to address it in his Councillors were included during the first year; I am response. Before approving it, you should clarify who not very sure about Members of the National Assembly. is responsible for Magosi who are not covered by Public Last time when increments were made, Councillors Service Act which is responsible for increasing salaries were excluded. So these issues confuse us. Therefore, if of public servants and their conditions of service. If it we have a Standing Committee like this one, it is going is possible to include them, let us do so. I absolutely to be responsible for reviewing issues of salaries and agree with you in oneness of spirit that we should conditions of service. Additionally, we are not going indeed include our Magosi. We should therefore include to have confusion on the basis that Councillors were them, land board staff and others so that we review it excluded more especially that their job is challenging.

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They serve the nation while we represent them here. as is the right thing to do and execute what it should. They offer us a helping hand in the sense that they do Thank you Mr Speaker. everything that we cannot do since we are here. When MS MONNAKGOTLA (KGALAGADI NORTH): you talk about a patient, a Councillor or a member of Thank you Mr Speaker and good afternoon. I support VDC is the first one to remember them. So indeed, the Motion that there should be establishment of a these are very important people in our nation. We must Standing Committee which will review salaries and recognise them. So this committee is really going to other conditions of service of Members of Parliament, assist us. If a certain person goes to labour at any time, Members of the Council, Members of the Ntlo Ya the first person to get assistance from is a Councillor Dikgosi and Specified Offices. Mr Speaker I support or a member of VDC, even though members of VDC this Motion, those who will be appointed should possess good qualities; be trustworthy, have experience have nothing to do with that. So it is quiet necessary to in finance, and be able to work day and night to ensure establish this committee to deal with these issues and that this task can be executed. Minister when you determining how they can be assisted. appoint, you should consider the economists, a long Their personal cars are already damaged because they serving Member of Parliament to this committee who use them to assist in different ways. Whenever there is at least served two terms, the one with experience. a funeral, they are the ones used to collect firewood. If Even if you appoint a Councillor to this committee, they need pots, they use their cars and petrol to fetch he should have served more than two terms, someone them. So this committee must closely assess these with more experience and knows all the challenges of things when reviewing. being a Council Member. Even Dikgosi, appointed to this committee should have experience. In fact, Human Mr Speaker, another issue is that on many instances, Resources (HR) and lawyers should be appointed to when our committees in Botswana assess salaries and make this committee complete and efficient enough to conditions of service, there is a lot of disparity on progress us as the leadership of this country. Let me salaries. Our staff in Botswana usually has conflicts say that, even if you are reviewing it, I know that you and cases from time to time because of these major are going to review it with your Permanent Secretaries differences. Although we are not actively involved, (PS) especially for Presidential as well as of Finance because they will be dealing with issues of finance. As let us find people who recognise our contribution and it progresses, there should be an establishment of sub- treat us fairly that we are here to serve this country to committees and as the Minister you should personally the best of our ability. We should address the issue of supervise to see what is happening, we are talking gaps between salaries and perhaps try to close that gap. about public funds here. Minister, these are some of the Of course we cannot be equal but we should not create suggestions I present before you for your consideration. a huge gap where one will earn double the salary of another person yet they are executing similar jobs. So During the process, as they make comparisons and your committee should look into these issues as you say travel the entire country, they will also be looking into you are constantly meeting. Even if you do not direct our allowances as well. They should know that if we but appoint members who can look into these with the say Kgalagadi North, Gantsi North and Shakawe how goal to bring a solution which will benefit everyone. big are the constituencies and their challenges. So when they embark on this, they should have a well-resourced The other thing that I would have liked for Minister office and all the necessary tools to execute this duty Morwaeng to have highlighted is the terms of reference. and stop making assumptions, maybe they will have These are some of the important things to note when a their own allowances and time is moving. Before this committee starts and ends its term. Maybe as Members Standing Committee commences Minister, urge your of Parliament, we can offer advice on certain aspects. Permanent Secretaries (PS) to ensure that all resources These are actually terms of reference which will serve are in place so that the committee starts right away. as a guiding tool. Apart from that Honourable Minister, I So that once they start they will not come into conflict did not have too much to say, I do support you that there with the Government employees because their roles are should be a Standing Committee which will do regular not defined yet we agreed as Parliament to establish a reviews when the need arises. With those words Mr Standing Committee. They should address these things Speaker, let us support Honourable Morwaeng so that Minister so that as they commence, they can perform he can be given permission to appoint the committee diligently.

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One Honourable Member suggested we benchmark from of Members of Parliament including allowances. The other countries more especially in terms allowances. concern, which dates years back is that after the increment However, if we benchmark in other countries, we of public servants’ salaries since increment of Members should do so in countries with the same economy as of Parliament is a statutory piece, it should be tabled in ours. This is important because if at home my economy Parliament. Then the Minister has to table a Bill whose is low and we eat maize meal then at a different house objective is for Parliament to pass as per procedure they have a much higher economy and can afford to because as I indicated, Members of Parliament’s salaries eat rice, my child should not ask me for rice while they are in the Constitution. So every time when that Bill is know the state of our economy. So as we benchmark in brought here it seems like Members of Parliament’s other countries, we should be careful and ensure that we salaries are different to that of public officers, but the benchmark in countries which have the same economy fact of the matter is that, when public officers’ salaries as ours and stop comparing things which are not the are increased by 6 per cent, Parliament’s salaries are same. These are the suggestions I present before this also increased by 6 per cent, and for this 6 per cent to be House. included, a Bill has to be brought to Parliament for that 6 per cent to be included. That is because the salaries for Let me continue, I do not want to be long because I Members of Parliament unlike those of public officers, have already mentioned that when HR practitioners are increased by a law. So as Members of Parliament are appointed, it should be someone with working were commenting on this Bill, it now seemed like experience with Councillors. We know that a Councillor they had created a special arrangement for themselves, works for 24 hours, they work very hard in fact if whereas that is really the arrangement for all public a Councillor has bought a vehicle, by the end of five officers, Members of Parliament, Councilors, specified years, that vehicle is worn out. So these are some of officers and members of Ntlo ya Dikgosi. So that is what the things HR is going to look into; what the duty of Members of Parliament have long been saying that, they a Councillor and a Member of Parliament entail. What really wish that they can have a Parliamentary Service is the definition of Kgosi, we know that we respect Commission which will focus on these issues, and we Bogosi? We know that Kgosi brings unity there should will not be included in that committee as Members be no conflict. These are things which are going to be of Parliament. That is because if we are involved in seriously considered. I do not want to be long because these issues, when a Bill has been brought here and we the focus of the debate was on this Standing Committee. debated it, it will now seem like we are advocating for I support the Minister and urge him to review such ourselves to be given money whereas we are also the things, there should be no challenges. With those few ones who approve money. remarks, I thank you Mr Speaker. I want to clarify the issue that, it is not like Members MR MMOLOTSI (FRANCISTOWN SOUTH): of Parliament have an arrangement that is different Thank you Mr Speaker. I also… from that of public officers. It is just that the system of these increments was controlled by different clauses, HONOURABLE MEMBER: Is Molebatsi the one the increment for public officers is announced by the who was called? Minister, for Members of Parliament we change the MR MMOLOTSI: No sir. Constitution, and the increment for Councilors is announced by the Minister of Local Government. So HONOURABLE MEMBER: Mr Speaker! Mr Speaker my wish really, is that maybe we could have agreed that we are going to have a Parliamentary MR SPEAKER: Mmolotsi! Service Commission. We also know that Parliamentary MR MMOLOTSI: He should sit properly on the chair Service Commission is in line with the independence and stop sleeping on it Mr Speaker, it makes him act in of Parliament, and that is really the direction we should that manner. take because we wish that in future our Parliament can hire its own staff, instead of the staff being hired Mr Speaker, let me indicate that this Parliament has by Director of Public Service Management (DPSM). been requesting for so many years for the establishment It should pay its own staff, determining the salaries of of Parliamentary Service Commission. It is the one its staff, as an independent Arm of Government. We do which could be reviewing all the terms and conditions not wish that in future these salaries will continue to

30 Hansard No 201 Tuesday 6th April, 2021 STANDING COMMITTEE ON REMUNERATION (MEMBERS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY, COUNCILLORS, NTLO YA DIKGOSI AND SPECIFIED OFFICERS) BILL, 2021 (NO. 4 OF 2021) Second Reading (Resumed Debate) be structured the way they have been structured in the themselves because they are custodians of this country’s past. So, since Government agrees that we should reach money. They are the ones who appropriate the money independence of Parliament gradually, that is why they of the nation. So in that way Mr Speaker, it will be are establishing a committee that will review the salaries good for us to not talk about our salaries going forward, of Members of Parliament, Ntlo Ya Dikgosi, Councilors Magosi, Councilors and so on, because there will be a and specified officers. It is a welcome development, we competent committee that will be dealing with them. will accept that it is a start, whereas we just know that The only thing that concerns me Mr Speaker is that, if it is not an arrangement we wish to have in Parliament, this committee will give the Minister the report after where it is independent. Since Minister has said that they finish discussing these issues, then the Minister and they will establish a committee that will review your the Government can be the ones considering what they salaries, you should stop advocating for yourselves are going to do with that report, that is where I see us in Parliament that you want your salaries increased. having challenges because if that is the case, we will no We will accept because that is something we are not longer be in the initial plan to have independent people. pleased about, whereby your salaries are increased by 6 per cent, then you come to Parliament and say 6 per It is just going to be a way that Honourable Morwaeng cent is less or more. That is not a good thing because it will always want to be praised, to be highly regarded and seems like we are advocating for ourselves. So if this everything will be done for him so that he can agree with committee will be established to continue reviewing the report that was provided by that committee. So I do how our Magosi, Members of Parliament, Councilors not want a situation where our Members of Parliament, and specified officers can be paid, I believe that will take Councilors and Magosi will end up being Honourable the public’s eyes off Members of Parliament, and now Morwaeng’s bootlickers, so that he can approve that kind it can be known that Members of Parliament just like of arrangement. If that is the case, sometimes I think it other public officers, their salaries are reviewed by other is better we leave things the way they are because this is people to see how they can be adjusted. similar to the issue whereby in the commission we had not so long ago, the recommendation was that former Members of Parliament have been saying that maybe Members of Parliament (MPs) should be given a living we have to increase the number of people to be included allowance of around 21 per cent of what the MP earns. in this committee because those people need people to Then after that recommendation everyone was promised advocate for them. House of Chiefs, specified officers, that was going to happen. Judges and Members of Parliament do not have trade unions, they do not have people to advocate for them. I even remember that it was to revive elderly, former Public servants or public officers have public service Members of Parliament, who have retired and were now unions or trade unions which often discuss the issues attending rallies of Botswana Democratic Party (BDP) affecting public officers. So I believe that if there is a to try and rekindle the chances of Domkrag to win system for workers who do not have unions, so that it elections. They went there knowing that after this, the can be known how they feel about the salaries they are former MP’s were going to be given a living allowance paid and that will give them an opportunity to ventilate because they worked for the country. After they won when they have issues they want to discuss in regards to the elections, Domkrag like we know it, they changed their salaries. and said that issue was no longer there, and they were going around in circles. Former MP’s even came here That Mr Speaker… last year, it was the first time for with their committee to request a caucus, members of salaries of Members of Parliament and Councilors not Domkrag never even set foot at that caucus. They forgot to be increased when the salaries of other public officers that they went and got our parents like Mrs Chiepe, Mr were increased, it was the first time that happened. Kwelagobe and all the elderly people to campaign for Since it is the first time that happened, there is no one Domkrag saying, they were going to give them 21 per to advocate for Members of Parliament and Councilors cent. So the same elderly people will have to come again because they are leaders of the nation. So when things and kneel before Honourable Kabo Morwaeng, because are this way, if they can say, “right now we have been he is the one who can say yes or no at the moment. You dismissed, our salaries have not been increased, and it is will find that these kind of systems seems like they the first time this happened in our history,” it will now lack honesty, and sometimes I establish them hesitantly seem like Members of Parliament are advocating for because one would not know if the people who are given

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the responsibility to deal with these issues, are focusing them together with politicians whom most of the time on the issues or they are focusing on something else and working with them involves threatening them, and that is just a decoy. sometimes there is even that element of punishing them a bit; this committee would help a great deal because Therefore, I am saying I believe that this committee if they are in one committee, they will end up being could operate like the Delimitation Commission which delayed for nothing, yet they are not politicians. when handing the report to the President, that report is final. In fact, that committee is dismissed immediately I believe we shall do these things; we are growing as a and it is no longer available. If we could have established democracy. As the representatives of the nation, being this particular committee that we are talking about, right Members of Parliament and Ministers, we have to take now, the report they provided could be final, then I will ourselves seriously. We should give dignity to our jobs know that we are getting somewhere. So I know that it as Batswana have given us the dignity that they believe will be a report that will be availed to us and then it will we can execute our duties as professionals. We should be said, ‘members of the BDP (Domkrag) pass this Bill, not be at ease and do things in such a way that we send if not I will not allow you to have salary increments, do our Ministers to do things the way they are doing them. this.’ It will be used as a tool to scare you, as a meerkat I see too much playing around doing national duties in would do, removing a snake from its hole and putting it the current situation. Therefore, I was requesting that… outside so that whoever passes there would be scared. It would no longer be a tool designed to improve the MR HIKUAMA: Clarification. Thank you. Thank you lives of Judges. You will find out that using politics in Honourable Member. Well, I do not know, but you are that manner ends up affecting those who are inside and debating very well Honourable Member. I just wanted that other one as well. The members of Ntlo ya Dikgosi you to clarify this point for me; earlier on I was listening are suffering because of Members of Parliament issues. to Honourable Regoeng explaining that some of the people who are not affected by this committee, he feels MR KEORAPETSE: Clarification. Honourable a time to review their salaries and conditions of service Member, what you understand here is that once this will come. Do you not think this is an opportunity Bill has passed, it would mean we are going to repeal where those who are not affected by the structures that the Members of Parliament Salaries and Allowances are already in place, this committee should include Act, or does it mean this committee would recommend them? Are you taking Honourable Regoeng’s approach to the Minister, then the Minister would bring a Bill that those ones should be left out, being Dikgosi and to Parliament once again, whereby the Members of members of the land board committees, that their time Parliament can amend those figures, or what would be happening? It is something that I am not getting clearly. will come?

MR MMOLOTSI: Yes. I believe they cannot operate MR MMOLOTSI: I am not saying they should be left being parallel. My belief is that once this committee out, but I strongly believed this Bill could just be dealing passes, the Members of Parliament Salaries and with Councillors and Members of Parliament only. The Allowances Act would have to be repealed because it Judges and Members of Ntlo ya Dikgosi, maybe could would mean the dialogue around these salaries would no just be left in the public service based on the reason I longer come to Parliament. I mean the way I understand mentioned that every time when the politicians want to it. bruise each other, they do so through these procedures, and then those who are innocent end up being delayed. Therefore, I was still on a point of saying political issues You know that there is not time when the Specified have for a long time disadvantaged those who are not Officers, Judges and members of Ntlo ya Dikgosi involved in politics. The Judges of Botswana, members had their salaries increased on time. Their salaries of Ntlo ya Dikgosi and our Specified Officers get their are increased maybe after a year or months because salary increments very late because the politicians politicians would be wanting to make each other feel the would not have yet agreed concerning bringing the pinch somehow. Therefore, in that manner, that is why I Bill or agreeing with it, hence it means the poor people am saying although we are saying this Bill should pass, end up being at the mercy of politicians yet they are let it pass but we should grow and not find ourselves still not involved in such politics. So, in that manner, I just making the Judges, Magosi and the Specified Officers hope taking the public service employees and grouping who are innocent suffer.

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We know that if you annoy the President, he can end up HONOURABLE MEMBER: Okay. not increasing your salaries. That is why I was saying it is the first time in history where we have seen the public HIS HONOUR THE VICE PRESIDENT (MR service employees having their salaries increased, and TSOGWANE): I am happy to be debating after then Members of Parliament and Councillors were someone who understood what they were talking about, exempted. It depends on how the leader feels at that Honourable Mmolotsi because that on its own, makes particular time. So, if this becomes the case, it delays me shoot straight to the matter at hand. Let me also those who are innocent. mention that Honourable Morwaeng explained the Bill extensively as to why he wants these issues of salaries MR MOATLHODI: Clarification. I am not particularly not to come to Parliament anymore, because it seems on the issue that you are on at the moment. Clause 8 as if people are advocating for themselves or it makes states that this committee that will be elected, should people wonder what people would say. In several cases, only have two meetings in a year. I just wanted to say Members of Parliament were referred to as vultures. do you not think an important committee like this one Someone who was in Parliament at that time knows needs special meetings? We can assume that it is going that when we were referred to as vultures. Someone to have a very voluminous period of operation. I thank who was in Parliament at that time knows that we were you sir. referred to as vultures by one Former President, there were issues whereby people would go there to advocate MR TSOGWANE: Clarification. Thank you for themselves. Mmolotsi. I believe if someone is listening as a Member of Parliament, they can understand what you are saying. This Bill is straightforward Honourable Members and They can understand where you are coming from and we should not add anything to it, it does not even require that you really understand this Bill because like you are people to be as confused as some are already confused, saying, it was about what people would say if it were they are all over the place. This is a straightforward us increasing salaries for ourselves. And now even the Bill, that in position of the law that is already there, delay that would come as a result of not passing the Bill, which says that we should handle issues pertaining to someone can really understand you. Now others want our remunerations, people who are affected by this law; to drag you into saying if the committee is not engaged, Members of Parliament, Councillors, in fact councillors their salaries would not be increased, that is not true were just included here even though they are not a part because the people they are referring to, the land board of it but just because they are politicians, but the issue members and so forth, have been getting increments. was about remunerations of Members of Parliament, There is no time when they did not… Judges, Specified Officers and members of Ntlo ya Dikgosi. So this triggered a situation whereby this issue MR HIKUAMA: How is that done? was always presented in Parliament as it was referred to as a missing Bill, if and when Parliament adjourned MR TSOGWANE: How that is done is not an issue. before passing this Bill, they would not get their salaries. They know how they get increments. I understand you They would wait until Parliament passes that Bill. That Honourable Mmolotsi and you are clearly showing that triggered suspicions, it placed politics in danger and you understand what we are talking about. Thank you. it also triggered fear because people feared to voice out. When this Bill was presented in Parliament, even MR MMOLOTSI: I would like to conclude by saying I if perhaps Members of Parliament did not agree with agree that this Bill should pass, but I am not very sure if those remunerations, they feared to voice out. There was it is going to achieve the intended purpose. I would also no one who could stand in Parliament and argue those like to conclude by requesting the Minister responsible, payments and this shows that the system practically it can be you tomorrow, we have to dignify such disadvantaged leaders. committees in the sense that when they give us reports, we should treat these reports with the seriousness they What I want people out there to understand is that, deserve and see how we proceed from there. I thank you today we are not talking about increments. They should Mr Speaker. understand that we are talking about a committee which will assess this situation at the right time. When it is HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. time to revises increments for public servants, this MR SPEAKER: There is no time. His time it up. committee would see how it can revise salaries of those

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who are affected by this Bill. We do not like situations So, we have a tendency of comparing things which… whereby people would think that we were here all night looking for land board members, Headsman of discussing our increments or for certain people. Today Arbitration and others. No, we advocate for those ones we are not talking about increments, we are talking about Honourable Members, we have rights to advocate for a committee, that this committee...(Interruptions)... them because we would not be advocating for ourselves. We have powers to advocate for them when we notice HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. that their conditions of service are not favourable. As politicians and leaders of the nation, we are obliged and MR TSOGWANE: …will handle that task at the right we have powers to advocate for them, but it does not time. mean that they cannot be assisted and establishing this committee does not mean that Members of Parliament MR LUCAS: Clarification Mr Speaker. Vice President are going to receive bigger salaries. (VP), you pointed out that Honourable Mmolotsi is debating brilliantly and that he is one person who One day we will be here crying while they are here understands where this issue comes from. Honourable grading and pointing out that politicians cannot receive Mmolotsi was saying that the main issue here should salaries close to those of people who have been trained, be Parliamentary Service Commission. He said that Directors or Deputy Permanent Secretary. We will it should be the commission that revises and audits be here crying privately because we would not have salaries of Members of Parliament and Parliament staff. a say. Some jobs are graded, they are graded to see how much they are worth and sometimes politicians So this Parliamentary Service Commission, why not put come here without any profession which shows how it in place instead of a Standing Committee? much they should be paid or how much you should be MR TSOGWANE: I hear you Honourable Member graded. We have to understand these things, maybe this of Parliament, I do not have any problem with committee will get into job evaluation; looking into Parliamentary Service Commission, as you heard me job evaluation and seeing that we earn a lot of money. saying that Honourable Mmolotsi understands where If this committee can say that politicians earn a lot of money and that they notice that we get a lot of money this issue comes from. Whether it is Parliamentary as car allowances, we should not complain because it Service Commission or an independent committee would be an independent committee. So this is a double- which looks into these salaries, as long as this issue edged sword, we should not take it that this committee is not dealt with by Parliamentarians in Parliament, as is going to give us a lot of money. That committee is not long as they are not the ones who discuss their salaries. going to pour money in our pockets, and it has not been The main issue here is that we should stop talking about established for increments only, it has been established our salaries. If you pay attention to this Bill, you will to assess whatever it is going to assess. find that Judges are not included in it. This shows that it does not mean that there is anything to be gained from MR RAMOGAPI: On a point of clarification. this committee. Judges are not included because of the Honourable Vice President (VP), clarify this; I hear reasons which they advanced, Honourable Morwaeng that it seems like you are holding on to the fact that the will later on explain why judges are not included there, committee is mainly going to say that politicians earn a because they did not see it necessary, they did not think lot of money and that their salaries should be cut. You that it is important for them to fall under this committee. are also saying that we should not be too excited. We They want to continue like other public servants, whose are not saying that we are happy because our salaries salaries are not discussed in Parliament. We will be are going to be increased whatsoever, the main issue with those who are affected. Even if Dikgosi at Ntlo ya is that the committee is going to handle this issue and Dikgosi can perhaps approach Honourable Morwaeng we are not going to favour ourselves, that is what we and say, “Aah! Let that committee deal with salaries are basically saying. Your main argument is that the of Members of Parliament only since they are the ones committee is going to cut our salaries, how do you who fear talking about their salaries, exclude us from know that? Fellow Honourable Members have been that committee,” I believe that it is something that he saying, “You are going to appoint your people, who you can keep an eye on and assess because this committee already know what they are going to say” this statement does not want to force anyone to be where he or she is was uttered by Honourable Moatlhodi and Honourable not comfortable. That is why Judges do not fall under it. Tshere, are those dire predictions coming to pass?

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MR TSOGWANE: I can see that the shoe fits and you has just presented, there is no indication of when this are even scared, but what you are saying can happen. committee will be established, when will it commence You should not be too excited. and when it will finish. In the meantime could we not request the Minister of Local Government to come with HONOURABLE MEMBER: ...(Laughter!)... a Bill that can maybe allocate Councillors the same 6 MR TSOGWANE: Do not be too excited about the per cent that was given public servants so that when this committee and saying that it left out some people as it committee commences, at least Councillors would have was alluded by Honourable Tshere, “it has left out so something? I thank you. and so, it has left so and so out” so do not be too excited. MR TSOGWANE: Thank you Greeff. The Minister Let us assign the committee duties, if it notices that we will come and explain because the 6 per cent paid to are fine where we are or we need an increment, it will public servants came about as a result of agreements inform us… made two years ago. So, like you are saying, we had “EXCHANGE OF SPEAKERSHIP” decided that some remunerations of other personnel run concurrently with those of public servants. For us on MR SPEAKER (MR PULE): Honourable Leader of the second year to be facing this COVID-19 pandemic the House, Honourable Greeff is asking for clarification. and unable to pay some who fit those conditions means there is need to consult and give them an explanation. MR TSOGWANE: …if increments and other structures Like you are saying, it is true they had legitimate are prepared for us because… expectation because their increments were tied to those. MR SPEAKER: Honourable Leader of the House, The Minister can explain better. Honourable Greeff is asking for clarification. What the President said was, as politicians it might MR TSOGWANE: Yes, I will yield, let me finish. If it be better if we sleep hungry than have Batswana die is necessary for it to be a commission which will cover of hunger. We must lead by example and become the whole public service; land boards and everyone, if it exemplary to the nation that when the situation is bad, it has to revise if all the salaries in Botswana are fitting, it is better we compromise than other workers. These are would have to be a commission which covers everyone. some of the things that when the situation improves and So, we should not think that this committee is now a we try to increase, we are accused of being the gravy replacement of a commission. All workers will be train. So Councillors, Village Development Committees assessed, if we are assessing the structures of Botswana (VDCs) members and others did not get that 6 per cent to find out if people are well paid in Botswana. We this second time around. This includes senior public believe, the President included that the remunerations in servants who are not under unions such as Judges. That Botswana are low as compared to other countries. People is the most painful thing because they are public servants are not well paid. We accept that we have tightened who are not politicians but also not covered by unions the belt because we are looking at the economy of the which can advocate for them as it is the case for public country and where we want to see our country in future. servants with unions. They do not have agreements that for two years, they will get that 6 per cent increment. So, So, the commission will come to assess if the time has not I do not think this is anything hard. It can be discussed come, if the situation allows. We are also considering the with the responsible Minister that when the situation fact that our Government is not responsible for workers improves, can we not increase for them. Like I have only. It also assists pensioners, people with disabilities, said, already we will be having this committee that will destitutes and other programmes which require funding review that situation. to continue assisting Batswana. We consider all these things including developments and projects that we I want to thank Honourable Morwaeng for being swift. want. So, going forward, these are the things that we Some have been asking about the duration of this are also considering including salaries. Let me yield to committee, is it starting now or it will take some time. Is Greeff for clarification. it going to meet or what? I believe that in his response, the Minister will address them on how this committee MR GREEFF: Thank you Your Honour. Let me ask will function. What is required of us is to hand over the you sir since you understand these things much better reins to this committee to avoid conflict of interest where that when I read the paper that Honourable Morwaeng it will be seen as if we are increasing our remunerations

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without caring that the economy is going down. For a ASSISTANT MINISTER OF INVESTMENT, long time we have been concerned about what people TRADE AND INDUSTRY (MR MOLEBATSI): will say and we have even been called vultures. These Thank you Mr Speaker. Let me thank you for the are caused by the fact that we have to advocate for opportunity you gave me to also comment on this ourselves. So, Honourable Morwaeng would have issue. Mr Speaker, when the debate on this issue unburdened us. It will now be the responsibility of was ongoing, I got worried when I heard different professionals to review these things. Honourable Members going off topic. Mr Speaker, why can you not guide them? I heard some including There are some who are sullying this matter by saying that Headmen of Arbitration in this issue or maybe they did only BDP members will be elected into this committee. that deliberately but they understood that Magosi in this Eish! Being a politician is totally absurd. Even when case refer to those of Ntlo ya Dikgosi. Yes, we have some people have to go and deal with something, we a problem of some Headmen of Arbitration who are still attach to it bad connotations. They say, “only BDP not paid. The responsible ministry led by Honourable members are going to be elected. This committee is Molale; people usually talk about them because they just going to create employment for some people.” We have concerns. They did not say it today but I will are not even sure if those members will be paid, get an also do the same that, there are many of them in our allowance or volunteer their services. No, this is just a constituencies who are not paid. They simply volunteer way of ridiculing BDP. BDP has made this country what and as such, we should hurry up and amend that. That it is. The savings which we were advised to finish them off and not have any foreign reserves, BDP refused that. is why people are now taking this opportunity to charm Right now we are in trouble and people are realising that people by revealing things that happened in the past. it was important to have those foreign reserves to assist So it has to be amended because they are troubling us us in difficult times such as this one. in villages. You will see one of them traveling from gooMatabi in Mmadinare to a Kgotla at Mma Mphoeng Let me accept and inform our Dikgosi and all others in the morning even though they do not get paid. We do that, we are not reviewing salaries and we are not not know what to do with them, so this requires us to saying if you are not in this committee you will not get attend to it as soon as possible. your increment. Those increments are discussed with Government as they review. For Headmen of Arbitration Now focusing on this heading Mr Speaker, I thank the to be paid, it was decided by this Government. Initially, leading BDP Government for undertaking what they they were just volunteering their services. They were promised in their manifesto during campaigns. One of not fighting with anyone for Bogosi as it is the case the things they promised to do is to review some of the right now whereby when Kgosana is installed, everyone regulations which have been overtaken by events, to wants to be chosen because of these remunerations change them so that they match our modern kinds of lives. Mr Speaker, I would like to quote one paragraph leaving out those who were volunteering their services from the BDP Manifesto to remind voters who are without being paid for a very long time. So, those are listening because they might have forgotten about it. the ones thanking Government for remunerating them. May I quote with your permission Mr Speaker… These remunerations will be reviewed and increased over time by the Ministry of Local Government looking MR SPEAKER: Please do. at their work. MR MOLEBATSI: It says, “the Botswana Democratic So, I do not want us to talk much which may result Party (BDP) led Government will identify policies, in confusing people. Let us focus on the matter as legislation and institutions requiring reform to make the environment conducive for transformation and cause Honourable Mmolotsi did. It was my first time to notice the unnecessary reform.” That is exactly what BDP is that today Honourable Mmolotsi is focusing on the doing today. We have been talking and promising to do truth and he understands what is on the table. Some like this since the very beginning. Members of Parliament Honourable Hikuama are all over the place and do not met and assessed how they can increase their salaries. understand what is being talked about. He is my friend, Thereafter, they went to Parliament to approve the he knows I am playing with him. With those words, I law. That was indeed a wrong thing to do since it was thank you. overtaken by events. The current Government realised it

36 Hansard No 201 Tuesday 6th April, 2021 STANDING COMMITTEE ON REMUNERATION (MEMBERS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY, COUNCILLORS, NTLO YA DIKGOSI AND SPECIFIED OFFICERS) BILL, 2021 (NO. 4 OF 2021) Second Reading (Resumed Debate) was overtaken by events and they cannot proceed with great thing. The truth is, Councillors are the foot soldiers it. Therefore, they decided to keep reviewing them. So as MPs. Whenever we are in Parliament in Gaborone, we should greatly commend them for that. they are the ones who take care of our constituencies.

Mr Speaker, I was a Chairperson of a committee that When distributing food hampers during COVID, we was responsible for the welfare of MPs and their made a mistake by not involving them in the very allowances. Members like Honourable Hikuama and beginning. We then corrected it as soon as possible which Honourable Leuwe chose me to represent them. After is an indication that we function as one chain. Therefore, representing them, Honourable Lucas used to contradict it is impossible for us to function as single entities. So us along the way. After representing them, we were also it was unfair for us to talk about our increments without expected to finalise it in Parliament. I was embarrassed including them. For this reason, I thank Honourable because we were also executing it ourselves. That is, Morwaeng for coming up with the idea to include them. we were settling our own case. What I welcome or When talking about salary increment for Dikgosi and greatly believe, let us assign independent people who us, they should also be included. They simply watched are capable enough to review our issues. That way, we us speaking for ourselves and leaving them behind. The are not going to be embarrassed in the sense that we important thing… complain and settle our cases at the same time. In this HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. manner, they are going to be responsible for reviewing our salaries to determine if they are correct as well MR MOLEBATSI: Make sure it is not a difficult as come up with accurate ones. Yes, we are going to question, I yield Honourable Moatlhodi. differ with them on some things because they are either MR MOATLHODI: On a point of clarification. Thank going to increase slightly or increase them with a great you Honourable MP for Mmadinare, Honourable amount. So let us appoint relevant people to do that. Molebatsi. Thank you Honourable Speaker. I humble myself before you sir. Good afternoon sir. In Setswana Moving on to the issue of Dikgosi; yes, it is indeed we say, ‘mmualebe o bua la gagwe’ meaning, everyone supposed to be like that. I agree with the Vice President has the right to voice their opinion. Honourable when saying they are not forced to do that. Those who Morwaeng presented this issue based on this saying that indicated that they cannot join this committee like we should discuss it and also voice our own opinions. If Judges, it is important to give them that opportunity. So that is true, is it necessary for Honourable Molebatsi my they should independently review their conditions of beloved colleague, and other Honourable Members to service and their salaries until they are satisfied about despise this document? I am saying this because some them. It was never meant to force anyone and I am very did that. That is, is it wrong to voice ones’ opinion? satisfied with that. Thank you sir. Members of Ntlo ya Dikgosi decided to appoint a skilled MR MOLEBATSI: Thank you Honourable Moatlhodi. committee to review their salaries. I thank them very I was saying when a Motion of this calibre which talks much because God gave them the ability to think like about members of Ntlo ya Dikgosi has been presented that. They have to do these things for us because we are to Parliament, if we are to include other Dikgosi, we not skilled on them. might miss its intended purpose by ending up including those who are not affected. If we do not debate it as Mr Speaker, I am concerned about Councillors. I am is, we might end up including our defence force and one of the members who complained about the issue everybody else. So if we debate it as is, focusing on of cars last time. Councillors did not hear properly and what is written, it was going to be good. lacked understanding as a result. Many of them were not pleased with that. Some of them went to the radio I was emphasising that, many people complain that station and said, “people increased their salaries and left Headmen of Arbitration and that some are not paid us behind but we are doing the same thing.” Since we which means as a Government, we should listen to them have this provision, they also deserve to be represented since there seems to be a problem. We know what might by this committee. It is indeed a commendable thing. have happened because the honest truth is, some do not I assumed Botswana Association of Local Authorities get paid. There are those who volunteer and get paid (BALA) is responsible for reviewing their salaries. So while others do not. That is indeed a problem which we since we are establishing this committee, it is indeed a should attend to.

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I was talking about Councillors, that their workload is urge the relevant ministry to review their conditions of too much. We should therefore review and establish a service and not choose. There is a saying, ‘Rome was similar straightforward committee for them so that they not built in one day’, maybe we are taking one step at a do not envy us on the basis that MPs are increasing their time. However, we promise them that we will not forget own salaries…(inaudible)… and leave us behind. them or exclude them. Mr Speaker, let me conclude here, I believe I have said it all, I do not want to water As Members of Parliament, this will actually help us, down my debate. Let me thank Honourable Morwaeng, there is nothing worse than being called vultures and I fully support this Bill. Thank you. self-seeking individuals. By doing this as Members of the Parliament; if we hand over all these reviews to MR MOTSAMAI (GHANZI SOUTH): Thank you the committee, it will save us from all these bad name Mr Speaker. With all due respect, let me briefly debate calling. on the Bill presented before us. The issue of salaries more especially for Councillors and Magosi are long The Member of Parliament, Honourable Taolo Lucas overdue. It is very embarrassing that at this point, asked why it cannot be made Parliamentary Service Dikgosi are still complaining about their salaries. In the Commission instead of a committee. He supported this olden days when people were hungry they would go to with valid reasons like, if there is already a base, why Kgosi to ask for food which will be stored in Difalana can they not continue with the task. I heard the Vice (traditional food storage). Things have changed with President say there is no problem, either a Committee this new Government, Dikgosi have turned into servants or Service Commission can be appointed, the bottom and beggars. They are now the ones begging for line is, it should be independent from us as Members of increment from the Government. Increment for Dikgosi Parliament who it is serving. is long overdue not at time when they are now seriously complaining. If you visit Namibia, some of Dikgosi of Honourable Members, let me indicate that I fully merafe which can be referred to as minority tribes this support this Bill. When Honourable Gobotswang, side are given personal cars. Then there is an official one an Honourable Member of Parliament commenced which is luxurious for the Kgosi to be transported in but his debate earlier, he sounded as if they were trying this side Mr Speaker, we are witnessing strange things, to convince us to support the Bill. He said, we are embarrassing things Mr Speaker. somehow being bewitched because we might reject this Bill. Honourable Members! Can we really reject a Bill Mr Speaker, when we talk about conditions of service for which we tabled, really? We first assess and see that it Councillors, I will discuss Dikgosi because politicians can serve the country. also includes Members of Parliament. I implore that the DR GOBOTSWANG: Clarification. Thank you committee which is going to carry out these reviews Honourable Speaker. Just before you conclude please should be intense reviews. We should not have to clarify this issue; the issue we did not agree with is that advocate for the increment of salaries of Councillors it seems there are many Dikgosi employed under the and Members of Parliament, in other words, people’s Public Service Act who are not going to be catered for representatives. We should review their performance in under this Standing Committee that we are planning to terms of providing the service, were people happy with establish, so how exactly are they going to be catered it. Some Members of Parliament or Councillors can be for so that their salaries and conditions of service can be voted and ignore their constituents for five years while we reviewed? Furthermore, it seems like we are focusing are here advocating for their salary increments. So those more on salaries but in my view, it is the conditions doing this review should consider including a clause of of service which need to be reviewed. Honourable power to recall so that those who are not performing can Member, I want to know how conditions of service of be recalled and revoke the positions they were voted in. all these Dikgosi are going to be reviewed? I am saying this in a clear state of mind because there is a review of the Constitution we are waiting for like we MR MOLEBATSI: Thank you Honourable Member. are waiting for the second coming of Jesus Christ. There That is my point, I made it quite clear that the relevant is no hope and the second coming of Jesus is even better ministry will serve them. I cannot give you a definite because there are pastors and prophets who reveal His answer on how that is going to happen because I am works. This one is difficult because there is no signal not the one responsible for that ministry. Therefore, I that there is something happening. There should be

38 Hansard No 201 Tuesday 6th April, 2021 STANDING COMMITTEE ON REMUNERATION (MEMBERS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY, COUNCILLORS, NTLO YA DIKGOSI AND SPECIFIED OFFICERS) BILL, 2021 (NO. 4 OF 2021) Second Reading (Resumed Debate) power to recall, politicians should deliver and serve the You cannot separate Councillors from Village people accordingly. I am not referring to those who are Development Committees, their rights and conditions on the way, who after being voted, they appoint their of service, VDCs are the ones who support Councillors, families and children, people who benefit from being they are the ones who prepare for Kgotla meetings and representatives. Mr Speaker, we should advocate for so on. So next time let us consider these people when people who are honest and diligently deliver this service. we review salaries, not that I want to mix things up. VDC members go to the offices in the morning and they Moving on with the conditions of service for Councillors do not gain anything. Members of VDC are competing Mr Speaker; let me indicate that regarding the issue of to be hired in Poverty Eradication Programmes and offices it is embarrassing to look for a Councillor at his Ipelegeng, and if these VDC workers were given better place of residence and during these unpredictable times salaries, they could be doing these things Mr Speaker. you will find there is a conflict or a fight. We donot want to invade the privacy of a Councillor as it belittles Let me briefly move on to Dikgosi, they are the ones them. This drives them to be called horrible Councillors who went to request for our independence from the or horrible Member of Parliament and strip away the Queen, but they have turned into outsiders and beggars title of Honourable. Members of Parliament are better in a country they went to request independence for. because they have offices. Councillors should be When laws are approved they are then taken to Dikgosi allocated offices, question is where are they going to get to bless them. Dikgosi are not disagreeing with the laws, staff to work in those offices? We can engage Internship they bless them. Dikgosi need Ntlo ya Dikgosi which is offices, the same ones engaged in Government offices. not only called Ntlo Ya Dikgosi, it is also called House They are doing diligent work, all that has to be done is to of Representatives, which has members who can firmly train them to manage Village Development Committee disagree with issues, not a House that will be said it is (VDC) office which the Councillor works in. The for Dikgosi Mr Speaker. I was talking about Dikgosi issue of lack of office also has a negative impact in the because I understand that even the offices of Dikgosi service delivery of a Councillor. Sometimes he might have recently been installed with air conditioners end running his personal errands and fail to discuss and we are told that Wi-Fi will also be installed. I am projects affecting people Mr Speaker. I am saying this still indicating that the challenges of Dikgosi is not equipped with common understanding because I have Wi-Fi only, there is also secretaries who write cases been a Councilor for three terms, 15 years, and during who are demoralised because they are not paid well. that time I was forced to find a house where I met The secretaries are the ones who guide Dikgosi on people, and I paid for it. I assisted the people of Ncojane judgements and laws because some Dikgosi sometimes in it, and that is heartbreaking. At least find them old take the Bogosi position because it is their inheritance, furniture that was used by Members of Parliament to and not because they have knowledge of what they use in their offices so that they work with dignity, the are supposed to do. So they end up being assisted by same furniture that you take to Supplies Departments so secretaries. that it can be auctioned. Just imagine, when a Councillor MR HIKUAMA: Point clarification. Thank you has passed away, their funeral seem like we are burying Honourable Speaker, thank you Honourable Member. a border jumper, someone we do not know where they Honourable Motsamai, since it seems like, in fact are from and where they are going. The funeral is very it is evident that you have the experience to work heartbreaking in that there are no resources to give that with Dikgosi and Dikgotla because you have been a Councillor better packages. Councillors’ salaries are Councillor for a while, so these people who work at taken by loan sharks who call themselves organisations, Dikgotla especially secretaries and others, which Act do they tell Councillors that they should group themselves they fall under, and when are their salaries going to be and get into a certain organisation that is going to save reviewed? I do not want you to mix things up, I also their money and so on. Then that organisation will end want to understand their working conditions? up being nowhere to be found. I am saying this as a victim, we were once defrauded by people and we do MR MOTSAMAI: Yes Honourable Member. Dikgosi, not even know where they went. It was just that we especially secretaries, they are under the Public Service thought that we are saving but we were defrauded. You Act, they are just public officers like others. These have to pay attention to the issues that affect Councillors people to be reviewed Honourable Member, especially Mr Speaker. secretaries are reviewed just like other public officers

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as you always hear that public officers’ salaries are these people should be given the responsibility to hand increased by 6 per cent, 5 per cent. There should be long sentences, so that they do not punish people from valid reasons which assess the services that these people January to December. They should be given a threshold provide to the public, and also assess the amount of that at least if Motsamai misbehaves, we should only work that secretaries in Botswana are doing. Secretaries go as far as two lashes, and in terms of money, they in Botswana could be paid the amount that secretaries should go as far as P10 000.00 or whichever amount of Land Boards are paid as they came first, then it was will be stipulated. I am going to bring that Motion to Land Boards and then politics. Mr Speaker, even at the Parliament Mr Speaker. I have prepared that Motion. moment, to notice that Dikgosi are treated unfairly… I am saying this because this gives Bogosi some form at the moment there is COVID-19 and during COVID, of dignity that you cannot come to them all the time Dikgosi were told that they have reached retirement age and have them do the arbitration among you. They and they should go and rest. We have stayed for about are doing the arbitration because we would have done more than eight or nine months in my constituency what? What are you still looking for in the engagement without Dikgosi, at Karakubis and Ncojane but Dikgosi of Headmen of Arbitration? Where they are working who have been there could have had their contracts from, in storms and torrential rains, let these people be extended because they could not hire people because of taken care of so that they would operate from proper COVID-19. So they were forced to leave their positions. places. They have now turned into visitors and beggars. Some of them even left in the middle of cases, while Let it be looked into so that when all fails, they should they were at the Kgotla. That is very disrespectful to be given caravans that they could use as shelter during treat Dikgosi unfairly Mr Speaker. As Honourable rainy days, if it happens to be raining in such a ward. It Motsamai, I was suggesting that Dikgosi should not should not be said cases could be heard at their home, or be under Ministers, they should be under Office of the that the arbitration could be done at home. People might President, and they should report directly to the Office end up using objects in your household to fight. These of the President. They should not be under Ministers are arrangements that I do not agree with as Honourable because now it seems like politicians control them a lot. Motsamai, Mr Speaker. If Dikgosi were under the President, that could provide We have already seen the results from these arbitrators; them with dignity that indeed they are the Fathers of the they are doing a great job, so they should be given nation, and they report His Excellency. offices and clerks. Maybe as I was saying, when we say there are no funds, how are we going to able to employ MR LUCAS: Point of elucidation. Thank you clerks? Take interns and train them for two weeks. Honourable Motsamai. As we keep on mentioning Interns work harder than some Government officers Dikgosi in this issue, there are some people who found in offices do. They can be taught how minutes seem like they want to say we cannot include Dikgosi are taken when assisting Kgosi. They will do that job anywhere as we are mixing things up. This Bill, its title diligently. includes Members of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi, and Members of Ntlo ya Dikgosi are Dikgosi, with their colleagues being The cases which they are not able to solve should be the likes of Headman of Records, Chief Representatives the ones going to higher courts Mr Speaker. We need to and others. How can you react to the issue that we are review this point. mixing things up when we involve Dikgosi in this issue? Let us also review this point that major villages in the MR MOTSAMAI: No, there is no mix up that we are Ghanzi constituency such as Kalkfontein, there should doing, this issue will be delayed because we came with not only be one Kgosi to deal with cases. Currently, other clauses, and it was bound to be delayed. There there are those whose contracts have not been renewed. is nothing that Government ever does quickly, all they The Kgosi in Kalkfontein is the one moving around want to do is to make excuses that this issue was delayed the whole constituency, dealing with other cases Mr because we came up with many clauses. In fact, I should Speaker. It has to be reviewed that there should be also address the issue of Arbitrators who are Dikgosi people who assist Dikgosi, considering the vastness of called Dikgosana in Dikgotlana. Mr Speaker, my request the village and that the person dealing with those cases, is that at the moment these people should have been and the villages feeding that village, as there are mother tested to see if they can be productive and they should clinics, it should be known that that person is a father not be taken like Ipelegeng employees. At the moment, chief who also assists areas close by. They should make

40 Hansard No 201 Tuesday 6th April, 2021 STANDING COMMITTEE ON REMUNERATION (MEMBERS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY, COUNCILLORS, NTLO YA DIKGOSI AND SPECIFIED OFFICERS) BILL, 2021 (NO. 4 OF 2021) Second Reading (Resumed Debate) considerations for him, and it should be ensured that he what was seen, if they were to do what could have been is given an assistant, so that he would perform optimally. done at that time. So, that is why they managed to come with this today, which is compensation. Mr Speaker, when we review the salaries, I am going back to the point I started with; it should be considered It was not complete. We had talked with Honourable whether we are delivering. We should look ourselves Molale, and he took it like that, and then a review was in the mirror. Politicians who also cross the floor after done. So I thank him too because he kick-started the being elected; this point has to address them as well. process because some of you could have found a dismal Even those who just become idle after being elected... situation which some of us found. (inaudible)…these points have to affect them, and they should not just have their salaries increased just for the Honourable Speaker, I would like to continue to say, sake of it; giving them a bonus for crossing the floor like other Members were saying, this Bill is not one to be poked around, talking about how salaries could be with seats won by other parties. This is not being fair to increased. No, it is not talking about that. It is very clear the people out there. We are here advocating for those as to what should be there, a committee that would have who do good and those who do not Mr Speaker. With been reviewed, and it will be endorsed by Parliament, those remarks, thank you. and Specified Officers, National Assembly Members and Ntlo ya Dikgosi. We know that sometime back, the MR SPEAKER: Thank you Honourable Member. Judiciary was included. The way it has been selected, it Honourable Majaga followed by Honourable Moabi. is a welcome development, we appreciate you for that. Reviewing the welfare of the Honourable Members of MR MAJAGA (NATA-GWETA): Honourable Parliament and Specified Officers is something which is Speaker, good afternoon sir. Thank you for giving me done time and again, as we have seen that lately things this time. Mr Speaker, I will not take much of your keep improving or changing, it would be proper for us time on this Bill. As I have already recognised you to pass this Bill as soon as possible, and then it should Honourable Speaker, I also recognise the presence of be implemented. It is going to put these things in order. the Honourable Members in this House. Honourable Speaker, I would like to say one might say this Bill is It was not proper for one to advocate for themselves. It long overdue. It could have long been brought to this was not proper for us to advocate for retiring Presidents, like when we spent nights in Parliaments saying this is House, maybe in the 8th, 9th or 10th Parliament. Let me how they should be treated and so forth. As it happened thank Honourable Minister Kabo Morwaeng for having like that in the past, for everything there is a beginning brought it today. I appreciate very much that this Bill Honourable Members. We have to support this Bill. has come because it could have long come, because this Other countries are far ahead in the Southern African thing had some challenges in the past, and it addresses Development Community (SADC) region. You can go serious issues when it comes to the welfare of the to Angola and South Africa and see the salaries received Honourable Members of this House. So I thank him by the political animals or the Members of the Assembly. very much for having brought it and I support it like my You will notice that they are far. We could be having fellow Honourable Members who have spoken before things we are doing better than they could, but when it me. comes to this one, they have long implemented it.

I would continue by saying, I would like to thank those The Dibotelo Commission came up with something. who assisted me before. I would like to thank Honourable The reason why I was saying this thing could have long Molale, Hardrock. Sometimes when he talks about the been done, if you look at the commissions that came Constituency Fund and other things, he mentions their up with the recommendations pertaining to our welfare, roots; where they started. I thank him because we once you would realise that there would not be any issues. attempted to address this issue when he was a Minister Right now, we are in trouble. Our counterparts like for Presidential Affairs and Public Administration. what Honourable Brooks and Honourable Motaosane That is when we ended up pushing this issue to be in and others were saying, we were Councillors for the existence, making sure that our salaries as Members of past 10 years, and some for 30 years, 25 years. The this House are looked into, at that time. They were not likes of Mathoothe and Lesedi are here as well; they even aligned. They had no idea what their range was; are former Councillors. We know they are lamenting

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out there saying here we are increasing our salaries as as per our Constitution and that we will see that these Members of Parliament, that we do not recognise them. things do not correspond when we talk about Dikgosana We know them very well and we know that the job of and Headman of Records. We would know that as per a Councillor is very hard. We are still doing that kind the Constitution, members of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi have of job even now. The challenge is that when they say the honour to sit in Ntlo Ya Dikgosi like us sitting in we did not receive the 6 per cent; our fellow politicians the National Assembly and we would know how their like Councillors believe us, but they are a bit sceptical welfare or their salaries or whatever associated to their that our comrades or the Honourable Members might welfare is managed, without mixing these things up or not be telling the truth, maybe they have increased the being all over the place. It is also time for people back at salaries for themselves, maybe talking about transport the Constituencies to know how to differentiate between or whatever. These things will make our relation with Kgosi, Kgosana and others as well as the roles they play. the Honourable Councillors, they would know that it is like that. Mr Speaker, it is important for us not to do a shoddy job when discussing this Bill, even if we agree, we should There is one clause which I did not read properly, I debate it so that Batswana can know that this thing is thought that perhaps as time goes on, some intellects long overdue and it put some people in a tight corner would understand it like I do, since there are many some years ago; if and when one Member of Parliament intellects in this House so that it can be clear. At least a could present a Motion saying that they did not get the certain percentage should be cut when someone becomes 6 per cent increment in this House, members on his or a Councillor or a Members of Parliament so that at the her side of the aisle would start looking down and they end of the day he or she can be like Presidents who get would not want to comment on it even though it affects a certain percentage upon completing their term. That them and it is necessary to do that. As the Honourable one raises a concern because salaries of Councillors and Members alluded, there is a time for everything, that Members of Parliament are depleted by social welfare is what the book of Ecclesiastes says. It is time to programmes which are at the constituencies, which are implement this and we should not only stop there, we humanitarian, there is no way you can dodge them if should continue with other things as the BDP stated you still want to contest for this position. They are not that the Constitution will be reviewed. As time goes on, compulsory; funerals, vehicles and funeral parlours, we will see Honourable Kabo Morwaeng presenting they are humanitarian and they will force you to use clauses which have to be reviewed because life and the this money. In future some would highlight some world does not stop, it will always move on. things which they believe impoverished you and some MR RAMOGAPI: Elucidation Mr Speaker. Thank would say doctors impoverished you as you wanted to you Honourable Speaker. You are debating brilliantly win elections while in actual fact it is not true because Honourable Majaga. The nation has to know that we did the actual truth is that there is no money, salaries get not get the 6 per cent, because some are saying that we depleted while one is servicing constituencies. So these got the 6 per cent increment while some are saying that are some of the things which we have to correct, a Bill we got 10 per cent. You should clarify that Members of like this one does not have to be to be politicised, it has Parliament did not get the increment like other public to be amended accordingly. servants and that even when we knock off late like this, Moving on, we have to educate people Honourable we do not claim because some are saying that we claim Members. Batswana do not know Dikgosi, and a lot of money, clarify it. Thank you sir. Dikgosana. I noticed this last time during the encounter MR MAJAGA: Thank you Mr Speaker, thank you that I had, that people have to know who Kgosi Honourable Ramogapi. That issue is there in the public Kgafela, Kgosi Tawana, Kgosi Khama are as per our domain, and that is why I explained that Councillors also Constitution. They should know who they are as well thought that we got the 6 per cent increment. You are on as their authorities. People should know what Ntlo ya the right track, we did not get the 6 per cent increment Dikgosi is, the role played by Headmen of Records which public servants received. who work at the Dikgotla on behalf of Dikgosikgolo, that is when we will not confuse these salaries; salaries I would also like to agree with the Honourable Member of Dikgosi and so forth. As Vice President talked about who talked about the car subsidy issue, I do not know Councillors, we would know how things should be like who that Honourable Member is. That one has to be

42 Hansard No 201 Tuesday 6th April, 2021 STANDING COMMITTEE ON REMUNERATION (MEMBERS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY, COUNCILLORS, NTLO YA DIKGOSI AND SPECIFIED OFFICERS) BILL, 2021 (NO. 4 OF 2021) Second Reading (Resumed Debate) there, and we should not shy away from it. In Botswana up the Government and in the process public servants there is something which is feared, even if there are were appointed. Year 2023 is approaching and a new no fights but just discussions, something which can government is going to be formed, a Permanent be agreed to or not be agreed to, something which Secretary (PS) or a Director cannot make up the just requires discussions. I am saying this because Government. You will see how difficult it is. We do not one Honourable Member talked about Members of have political funding in Botswana, yet other countries Parliament and Councillors, that is true. When you buy have it in the region. That is we always have allegations a car, it would be damaged when you leave this position of corruption, that Majaga and Sethomo are corrupt, after five years and you would have to park it orask VP is not supposed to use a chopper even though it is for help from your uncles. In our Setswana philosophy, Constitutional. We will start talking about those issues they would ask how you damaged the car since you because there is no political party funding, and we do were a Member of Parliament or a Councillor. So, it not have this and that even though we make up the should be clear in future that in your term as a Member Government. Forming a government comes with a of Parliament or a Councillor, if you have a car, it should very-very big cost and other countries paid attention have a limit. As of the 6 per cent issue, we do not know to these things. You cannot hear them talking about it and we want everyone to understand these things and corruption which does not exist because they already what exactly happened. know the funding percentages for party A, party B, party C and they would go on to try their luck. Most of The other issue Mr Speaker is that I once highlighted the workers who hold F2, D1, or other scales are just what other countries are doing. What other countries XL and they cannot make up the Government, they just are doing in the region, when you get to the political wait for the winning party to appoint them. If we do world or the political animals world as some often say in not pay attention to these issues just because we fear other countries, they carry out a clear assessment. They to address them, hey! We are the ones who allocate the see how they can assist you looking at what you had budget, we approve funds which manage the country. when you occupied that position, it is like an insurance Botswana is not like the United States of America or because some people come with their own things when the western world. Our budget is the one enjoyed by they occupy these positions just like most people here. companies which are owned by Batswana, it is the one When they leave office, people from constituencies like which is used to carry out jobs in the ministries. In other Kgalagadi, Honourable Kapinga in Okavango, Nata- countries, the budget for the private sector is rich, ours Gweta and others would leave with nothing. So instead is drafted by us, we are the ones who approve the budget of inquiring what happened, Batswana would choose which we have been approving and then we make up the to laugh at the situation. Time has come for Batswana government which appoint all these ministries. So doing who want these positions to know, a committee is going this is quite difficult Honourable Members, we should to be set up and they would know the salaries. Some have laws like this one to review our remunerations and of us were just in the dark when we came here to be allowances and they are not supposed to be equal. Councillors and Members of Parliament. Upon seeing the first payslip, some people were shocked but they Without fear or favour, let me give an example about were already inside and it is not easy to leave. This thing my friend in Ramotswa because he will not mind, if you should be like that, Batswana have to know these things are in Ramotswa, you cannot be paid the same with the just like our precedency positions, we know how power one in Okavango as it is. No, if you are allocated P30, is administered. Although Batswana do not know it, but 000.00 as constituency allowance, let him have that, and the situation we are in is well known. you have P15, 000.00. We need to consider a number of things. So, this committee is going to look at those There is one other issue which I thought I would things properly. Right now we know that there are some perhaps see people who are experienced with law in with constituencies while others do not have. Even at order to amend it. At least we should contribute, even Council level, there are councillors with wards and those if you can contribute five years or 10 years if you are without and that is allowed by the Constitution. So, this fortunate enough to be here for 10 years, but at the committee will attend to these properly because when we end of the day you should be able to have P2,500 or do that in Parliament, it appears as if we are provoking P5,000 to sustain yourself. Members of Parliament others whereas these are straightforward matters as make up the Government, you are the ones who made espoused by the Constitution and Government.

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Quickly and very briefly, though I had said I would relevant because it would have resulted in a conflict of not dwell much into this, we are not talking about interest if we were to debate our salary increments as remunerations, we are talking about this committee Honourable Members. which we appreciate Honourable Morwaeng for establishing. I saw some Bills if not policies which are Honourable Members have raised a number of issues coming, some kept being postponed for a period of 10 and I also not intend to be long. My request Honourable years, like the one from the Ministry of Environment, Minister is that, maybe we should consider including the Natural Resources Conservation and Tourism. I am youth and women in the composition of this committee not talking about them because they are not the current that you will establish. I am saying this because when subject. Even these ones, they have delayed. I thank the you look at most committees in the country, you will Ministers who are there now that they are dealing with realise that we have a lesser number of youth and them speedily. I am not saying the former ones were women. I want to remind you Honourable Minister that not working but during the 11th Parliament, we were for the most part, the youth are very active. We have promised that those Bills will be tabled and we do not the youth with massive experience. I know that one know what the delay is since we could knock off late might be inclined to pin point that the youth have no debating those Bills. experience but we have responsible young people who can be sent to serve in this committee. Honourable Ramogapi, some have no idea about sitting I want to thank Honourable Members for their input allowance because it is just standard and is lesser than because last time I addressed this issue advocating for all the boards, whether you sit in the morning and come Councillors that they retire into poverty and some blame again at 2 o’clock, and sit again from 6 o’clock and them that they have been misusing money yet that is not adjourn at 12 o’clock, the allowance remains the same. the case because there is no money. I once explained It is nothing much really and we are complaining about that Councillors are the caretakers of our constituencies. it. Even this sitting allowance, it must be defined, what When we are here, like I said that when I am here, I do you mean by sitting? If you sit for two committees… know all that is happening at my constituency of Tati other parastatal boards that we know, what do they do West because Councillors day and night often update to say it is a sitting and pay P1, 000.00, P750.00. No, me. I demonstrated that Councillors are our pillars, they ours is embarrassing, I will not even mention it, yet are our foot soldiers. I also liked the way Honourable we are law makers who pass the Budget. We are not Members demonstrated that if there is anyone sick saying we should be selfish, we are also considering all or there is anything, Councillors are at the fore front. Batswana who have been retrenched due to COVID. Honourable Members, I appreciate you for that because We understand the situation. We share in their grief and we have realised today in your debate how hard we want the economy to be opened and the Budget be Councillors work. passed like we did so that they may live. Mr Speaker, still on that, last year in Parliament, we Mr Speaker, I wholly support this Bill and other Bills passed a Budget looking at the way it was made. If my which can improve the lives of Batswana in general not memory serves me well, we had 6 per cent increment just political animals or National Assembly and Ntlo reserved for Councillors which was in bullet 100. ya Dikgosi only. They should be amended so that we Maybe one may wonder where that 6 per cent is. We continue with life. I thank you. need this clarified so that we know what happened. If we had approved that the 6 per cent be paid to Councillors, MR MOABI (TATI WEST): Thank you Mr Speaker. maybe we need to look into that and pay them starting Thank you Honourable Minister for the Bill that you from when the Budget was approved. Those are the 6 tabled at this opportune time. We have been waiting per cent back pays that I will request this House to look for it for a long time. I believe you know that I have into Mr Speaker. been troubling you on the side asking about its progress. According to our talks, it could have long been Mr Speaker, still on that 6 per cent of Councillors implemented. However, I thank you that you saw it which was reflected in the past Budget, the coming fit that it comes at this time. Let me start by indicating in of the commission does not render that approved my support for the Bill you have proposed Honourable increment powerless. I believe the committee that will Minister. I would also want to emphasise that it is be reviewing, will be making recommendations that

44 Hansard No 201 Tuesday 6th April, 2021 STANDING COMMITTEE ON REMUNERATION (MEMBERS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY, COUNCILLORS, NTLO YA DIKGOSI AND SPECIFIED OFFICERS) BILL, 2021 (NO. 4 OF 2021) Second Reading (Resumed Debate) will be adopted later. The 6 per cent we approved in are similar to commissions. When appointing people 2020/2021 still remains, therefore, it should be paid as for them, it is like they do not choose skilled people, per the agreement. Even other things that we will be instead, they appoint members of the BDP. making here, they must be straightforward. We must not approve a Budget which we would have made, You have brought a brilliant Bill. The leadership will knowing the direction we are taking, what we are doing therefore come up with a proper arrangement for that. and someone changes it. It would have been made with If they continue to monitor them, he should appoint agreement and approved with aims of what we want them bearing in mind that they are serving the nation done. of Botswana. He should not appoint them on the basis that they assisted him during campaigns, a situation Mr Speaker, I will focus more on Councillors because where they have to return that favour. That is, their core they are our foot soldiers at the constituencies, even business should be to serve Batswana. the committee that will be responsible for the review, they should also look into the issue of car allowance Another point to consider is that when appointing for Councillors. I know that these are some of the people for this committee, you will find that we mostly issues which have not been there and so this committee consider people who live in Gaborone. It is like we do should review car allowance for Councillors. I know not have qualified people in areas like Shakawe, Maun, that Honourable Councillors have ward allowance and Kasane and Kgalagadi, but they are there. If at all you not car allowance. I heard Honourable Majaga listing are looking for those who served as politicians, you will past commissions which some were not implemented. also find them there because we have retired Councillors. Our request is, as we are passing it here, we should If you go to Hukuntsi at Lokgwabe village; we have Mr have a timeframe for completion of its work and Lesope as one of experienced and retired Councillors. implementation of the recommendations. So he should also consider him. If you go to Serowe, we have retired Councillors like Mr Bafana Motseothata. Mr Speaker, it may appear as if I am repeating the same There are many of them in Mahalapye up to Shakawe thing but Councillors like I said are the care takers of and Gunotsoga. So he should not only consider those in our constituencies. The same applies to Dikgosi as some Gaborone and… have said but we should not forget those that Honourable Members talked about. It is like it is mainly focusing HONOURABLE MEMBER: We also have them at on the one we have here. I believe we discuss these Gantsi. things as we are the ones who make and approve laws. MR MATHOOTHE: There are many of them but when I know that we do not have the one for Dikgosi who they appoint, they usually consider those who live near are not in Ntlo ya Dikgosi. So going forth, we should the city. So the leadership should also consider people plan something for them. I believe they are similar to in all our areas. Councillors because they also represent people in our different villages Mr Speaker. Moving on, this document indicates that they are going Mr Speaker, without wasting time, let me give others a to review salaries and conditions of Service for Dikgosi, chance to debate. I therefore support the Bill presented MPs and other officers. Since it was presented before by the Minister. You should also remember women and us, when debating, it is not wrong to include some youth as you deal with it. In conclusion since I have Dikgosana like Honourable Members were listing them nothing much to say as issues have been discussed, let because we included Dikgosi. I think it is in order to say us pay 6 per cent to Councillors right from the time that because Magosana are going to question Dikgosi when we were approving the budget. Having said that from Ntlo ya Dikgosi on the basis that they left them Mr Speaker, I support the Minister for coming up with behind, forgetting that they are there. I am saying this that kind of law. Thank you. because we were discussing car allowance last time and Councillors blamed MPs on the basis that they only MR MATHOOTHE (SEROWE NORTH): Thank you considered themselves. It is quite clear that these things Mr Speaker. Let me also respond to the Bill presented operate as a chain. So it is quite right for us to agree before us as Parliament. I will not thank Honourable that this Motion would be good if it included reviewing Morwaeng right now but after establishing this conditions of service for Dikgosi and Dikgosana, MPs committee. This is because many of these committees work with Councillors while Councillors also work with

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Village Development Committees which are referred It is quite important for this committee to review for to as village Parliament. If this committee review for Magosi, those we are relying on since they are nation Councillors right now, VDC is going to blame them for builders. It should not only include Ntlo ya Dikgosi not including them. You see that it is going to be a line. and fail to include those in lower ranks who work with I believe we are right to say it should include others. them. It should also include them. That way, we will Whenever an MP visits a constituency, VDC and other rest assured knowing that we are managing this country constituency committees prepare everything for them. accordingly, that we are catering for those who serve That is how we operate. Botswana since they serve Batswana with humility and dedication. This committee should review such Whenever Magosi departs from Ntlo ya Dikgosi conditions. to address meetings in their regions, they consult Magosana. This is why we think it is necessary to Mr Speaker, I do not want to be long to avoid repeating include them. So others should not get angry that we are what the other Honourable Members have already tagging Magosana on this issue. No, it is not wrong but said, I simply wanted to indicate that we should not quite necessary. only include members of Ntlo ya Dikgosi, we should also include Village Development Committees who are The issue of Councillors and Magosi is a difficult one commonly referred to as Village Parliament. Thank you indeed. I was a Councillor for quite some time, at a Mr Speaker. younger age of 22 years old. So you will find that Councillors are pleased with their conditions of service. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF HEALTH AND Other constituencies differ from those found around WELLNESS (MR LELATISITSWE): Thank you so Gaborone. Some constituencies found at the settlements, much Mr Speaker for giving me these few minutes to their Councillors buy cars because they are pressurised comment on this Motion. First of all let me thank you by severe challenges that are there. They do this so that Mr Speaker for choosing me among all the hands which they can assist their constituents. That is the only reason were raised. Let me thank the Honourable Member who presented this Bill before us as Members of Parliament and it is a clear indication that this committee is quite of Botswana. Let me indicate that I support this Bill Mr necessary. It is going to review those things not only Speaker although there are a few concerns relating to salaries but their conditions of service as well. it. I believe that the Minister will go and review it with It is quite important for a Councillor to have an relevant stakeholders to see that going forward, since office at their ward. So this committee will come up there is still time to discuss this Motion, are there no amendments he can bring. If you read this Motion, it with recommendations after confirming that indeed includes Councillors who fall under the Ministry of Government is experiencing financial constraints. Local Government, it combined their conditions of VDCs must give the houses they are building to service with those of Members of Parliament. That alone Councillors so that they may use them as offices and contradicts other Acts, they will have to be changed. I Government should provide them with staff. It is quite think by the time we conclude this Bill, we will have to difficult for a Councillor to take important documents amend these laws. If we combine conditions of service from council to their house, tomorrow you hear that of Councillors with those of Members of Parliament, we something spilled on them …(inaudible)… So it is have basically removed them from Ministry of Local safe to file those important documents in your office. If Government. they vote another person in future, they will know that this is the office and everything found there is properly We should also note that the Bill before us, there is already a statutory instrument in place which governs filed there. A new Councillor will find the works for the the salaries of Members of Parliament because they are previous Councillor properly arranged. This means, it regulated by a statutory instrument. We should know is very important to improve conditions of service for that if we move Councillors this side then they will be Councillors, to put them in a good condition. I support regulated by this same instrument. That commission will speakers who say since we increased salaries of public send to Local Government, it will become clearer as we servants with 6 per cent, we should also give it to progress. Mr Speaker, when I view this Motion it calls Councillors or others who did not benefit from it. We for the review of the Constitution; Minister Morwaeng should review these things in that manner. should act fast because not all Magosi in Botswana

46 Hansard No 201 Tuesday 6th April, 2021 STANDING COMMITTEE ON REMUNERATION (MEMBERS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY, COUNCILLORS, NTLO YA DIKGOSI AND SPECIFIED OFFICERS) BILL, 2021 (NO. 4 OF 2021) Second Reading (Resumed Debate) will be included in this Bill, it will be a selected few. It Mr Speaker, let me profusely thank that this committee hurts me so much as a Member of Parliament because will be established and will review these conditions of some Magosi in the village say that their salaries are service. We heard Members of Parliament discussing reviewed in their absence. These are sensitive issues Mr these issues since a long time back, some Members even Speaker which have a huge impact in this country, so hid when Motions of salary increments were presented. when we discuss them, we should conclude them here I recall the statements of Member of Parliament rather than withdrawing them and debating them some Honourable Keorapetse quoted by one newspaper that other time because this delays us. Issues concerning the truth is as Members of Parliament, Batswana out Magosi should be presented in a different time frame there are of the view that we earn a lot of money, they because the duties undertaken by Magosi, Councillors do not know that even those who senior to earn more and politicians are unique. First of all, they assume than us. So perhaps establishing this committee which their positions through votes and not because of certain will advise for example that Members of Parliament qualifications. So conditions of service of national should get a two per cent salary increment, there will be leaders should be reviewed on one table, we should not no commotion not knowing that serving in this position divide them because we might bring confusion. is a calling. It is the same as being a pastor, you serve the nation, day and night. Even Councillors spend sleepless As one Honourable Member alluded Mr Speaker, when nights serving the nation. I am grateful that they have Dikgosi in Ntlo ya Dikgosi retire, they will find those been moved from Local Government because they were who were at the villages carrying so much dignity and it placed with other civil servants of Local Government will be difficult for them to work together. Minister, we and were treated equally. The title Honourable did not are raising all these scenarios to enlighten the Minister apply to them much. and check if you have cleared them as a Minister? These are the issues we raise so that we view them in I believe we are on the right track; all the issues Batswana desired will be addressed as we head towards that perspective. If everything is cleared Mr Speaker the Constitutional review. Maybe we are going to review then there is no obstacle, I believe everything will go major points which will lead to decentralisation of smoothly. constituencies motivated by this kind of Bill. All issues The other issue Mr Speaker as I speak, Local regarding general welfare of the political leadership and Government is undertaking a heavy load in terms of Bogosi are a concern Mr Speaker. conditions of service for Dikgosi and Councillors, I heard someone say that in regards to these issues of these are complicated issues. Today we will be moving Bogosi, it is really a concern that every time they have Councillors from Local Government Act regarding their to wait for their contracts, and even where they work, salaries. I wholly agree that as Parliament we passed the officers can realise that Dikgosi earn less than them. their salary increment more especially for last month. So that is a concern. Those are some of the issues that Perhaps the responsible Minister should review them we have to dignify our Bogosi so that they can know because Parliament passed them as the right salary that issues that affect them are handled by a Select increment. There is a lot of commotion, they want Committee that has been elected to look at issues that affect Members of Parliament, Magosi and Councillors. their 6 per cent since they were not regulated by the I believe that it is not too late to add that thing so that statutory instrument, they were regulated by the Local Magosi can also be part of this, and it does not matter Government Act which regulates salaries of all those whether we will use the same clause that we used to under it. move Councillors from the Local Government Act, Mr Speaker, as we discuss these issues we should because they are almost similar as they deal with issues seriously consider these two points; let us comprehend that affect the public. In fact, they do not need any and follow them, if we remove Councillors, we should qualifications, they do not apply for the position and remove Magosi as well. It should be viewed from that they are elected by their tribe based on their wishes just perspective such that salaries of these people should be like us politicians, as we are elected by our constituents. reviewed by special people who do so considering the So those are some of the points that I wish when we go fact that these are leaders of the country, and in future back and look into the regulations, they are going to be we will not be able to review their salaries. affected by the decision we make. When we say condition

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of service for the political leadership of Councillors make a decision not to take anything that he or she is and others, that means all those challenges that affect saying seriously. I believe that those are issues that as Members of Parliament will also affect them. Then we the Government grows and we have leadership that is can move them from the Ministry of Local Government flexible in many issues, it is time to try and solve issues and they know how they conduct their meetings, how do that have been a challenge, whereas Batswana have the they travel, would they have offices and all those kind wish and appetite to do them. of things. It is not only going to look on the salary, it is going to cover a lot of things. The implication of just Let me say Mr Speaker, with those remarks, Minister moving them from the Local Government Act to this I wholly support you, but I believe that you heard Bill, we should know that it has many consequences my concerns, as Honourable Sethomo Lelatisitswe, that we have to move as we look into these things Member of Parliament for Boteti East. Those issues that Mr Speaker, and the earlier the better. We should not I have put before you, I wish that when you respond, have a situation whereby when they are supposed to be I will hear their clarity and how you will conclude implemented, we have hiccups. They will be included in them, so that if our Councillors and Dikgosi who the Bill and also be included in the Local Government are not Members of Ntlo ya Dikgosi continue to be Act, we do not know which is which. I believe that the assisted using the Local Government Act, how we are Minister’s advisors will show how they viewed those going to continue supporting them. How we are going points and how the Ministry of Local Government can to continue assessing their salaries? We are going to also be in the position to see how this is going to affect continue assisting them with their assessments as these the Act that is governing Councillors. How is this going committees continue, unless they absorb them under to affect the existing Bill that Members of Parliament Ntlo ya Dikgosi. I believe that during the Constitutional have been using to increase their salaries? Even the review we need to talk more about it so that we can fix issue of the position of Parliament after they approve many things. Just like other Members of Parliament the budget and then later we have issues that are similar were saying, there are many issues that affect Bogosi to the ones that Councillors have at the moment because which I believe we should solve not like in the past. every time we hear these issues and sometimes it seems We thank the people who brought us Bogosi of this like they do not end properly. I believe this is the time country. The children they left behind have grown up. to maybe fix whatever that can be fixed and we have to When that child has grown up you show him a Kgotla thank all those who came up with this Bill Mr Speaker, and say, “son there is your Kgotla, now rule your tribe,” so that it can be here today. I believe that people like Mr instead of keeping people in suspense like they are Ndaba is one of the people that every time this Bill came waiting for God to come to this planet. I believe that I to Parliament he indicated that, let us try to come with need a Constitutional review more than anything and I something that is independent that is going to assist… I will talk about it day and night to make sure that many mean in the 11th Parliament that I was part of. It is one things that I believe are a concern are able to be ironed of the issues that was at the top of his priorities and I am also thankful that we are here today. out and fixed because now people are using the terms Kgosikgolo, Ntlo Ya Dikgosi, to go around the country Let me say that, bit by bit Mr Speaker, let us push to oppressing other people. If we still maintain them, it is have the independence of Parliament so that we can like we endorse something that we should be correcting. hire our own staff, and Parliament can be able to run the So this is the time to fix things and show that Magosi we affairs of the country. That is why you find that public left at our constituencies are indeed Magosi, and they officers do not know the difference between a politician are the ones we listen to. They are the ones that put us and them. As a Parliamentarian like Polson was saying, here, they are our parents at the constituencies, so let running a Government is not easy. We get into power and then we take the Government and give it to public us include them in this Constitution so that when we officers to run it, and that is not easy. Parliament is discuss issues we know that we have included everyone supposed to be independent so that it can have many in this country and we did not cover the select few. In powers. We can drive all those things empowering fact, I do not wish to have a situation where there are Councillors at the Ministry of Local Government so titles associated with certain tribes Mr Speaker. With that they can have much powers. At the moment, even those few remarks I support the... (Interruptions!)… when a Councillor talks to public officers they can just Thank you so much Mr Speaker.

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ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL When we talk about this issue and then we start talking AFFAIRS, GOVERNANCE AND PUBLIC about many things, including even people whom ADMINISTRATION (MR MTHIMKHULU): this Bill is not addressing, it is just a way of causing Thank you Mr Speaker, I stand to support the Bill that commotion and wanting to confuse Batswana in general was put before us by Minister. This Bill has come at the because as Members of Parliament, we are fully aware right time because all the time when our salaries were whom this Bill is focusing on. We cannot talk about supposed to be increased, Batswana would say Members those Headmen here. When we talk about the Headmen of Parliament are vultures or they are thieves. Now who are back in our villages, it means we will advocate since that would be done by an independent committee, for everyone. Eventually when we talk we will talk it would show that that committee would be working about the Magistrates, all public service employees, independently, free from Members of Parliament, hence Specified Officers in Government, the Attorney General there would be no issues of conflict. It would not be and others. We will end up talking about other officers said, ‘people have increased their own salaries more in Government from driver to officers, and so forth. than those of others, and they are being corrupt.’ As this Bill would be passed, it will be answering your This committee cannot include all the people we can lamentations as Members of Parliament. It would be think of. It is just the same when we are talking about answering the issues you have lamented about from way back, that it seems the Office of the President and the the legislative instrument concerning Judges. You will Executive seem to be the ones looking much into your find that when we talk about Judges we are looking dreams and aspirations. It shows that this committee at the Constitution of Botswana or other Acts that are will be independent and it will address issues pertaining in relation to Judges. Therefore, it is still the same. to Parliament, Magosi and Specified Officers. Those in It means when we make this Act, we cannot say all the Executive have been removed so that in the future Dikgosi in Botswana and the Headmen of Arbitration you would not say, ‘it is the Minister who does not want should be included. It would be bulky and then it would to increase the salaries for Councillors.’ You would be be more expensive, it would be a mammoth task to do aware that your things are being done in a manner that the review, and it would hit the coffers of the country is as transparent as possible. You will also have trust. hard. All deliberations that are made before that committee, will be done not considering whether this would That is why when this Act is made; it focuses on a smaller number of officers who have been mentioned, disadvantage Parliament or not. being the Members of Parliament, Councillors and the Considering the comments from other Honourable Specified Officers. If you may take a note, when the Members who debated here, all of us agree with this salaries for Specified Officers are made, they are not Bill wholeheartedly Mr Speaker. I also believe it is made like those for other public service employees. They are special public service employees. So when something you have observed that indeed we support their conditions of service are looked into, they are the Bill. Therefore, we have wasted time by saying the considered separately from those of other public service same thing, all of us repeating it. Just making it a bit employees. Just like it is the case with us. colourful by saying, ‘you have not included Magosi or whatever,’ regardless of how small they are, but I have explained that when we look at this Bill, it shows generally, we agree with this Bill concerning a Standing that the committee that will be doing this assignment Committee. is going to do just that. After doing that, they would come up with their recommendations; putting into Mr Speaker, I humbly request that you should use your consideration that a Member of Parliament, Kgosi, a authority. I request that under Standing Order 55.1, I Councillor or Specified Officers could have their salaries believe it is time to truncate the debate on this Bill, and increased for how much. After doing all that, they would have it pass; we agree with it as is. take their findings and submit them to the Minister, and he would give them to the relevant Minister so that HONOURABLE MEMBER: No, Mr Speaker, we do when the budget is drawn, these recommendations they not support it. We have issues that we want to raise. That would have come up with, would be considered. is premature; we do not agree.

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DR GOBOTSWANG: Clarification. Thank you Mr there is a way in which the problem could be solved, but Speaker. Honourable Mthimkhulu, assist us. We really not today on this Act which is dealing with specified want to help people here. We do not want to come groups of people, who are not even large in number. If up with an Act that would sideline people, finding there is that challenge, and it has been revealed, it could themselves in the middle of nowhere. be solved as we go forward. The challenge could be solved in a different way rather than through what we There is a question that was not properly answered, that are doing today. since there are many Dikgosi who are not covered under the Public Service Act and they are also not included We are ensuring that in future Batswana would not say in the Bill that we are debating, where exactly are they we are paying ourselves or increasing our salaries, they going to fit? Since the Members of Ntlo ya Dikgosi are should not say we are vultures. Batswana should know also Dikgosi just like other Dikgosi, can we not come that when there is a recommendation that the salaries to this issue of Ntlo ya Dikgosi, and talk about Dikgosi for Members of Parliament should be increased, that because when we talk about Dikgosi, would they be they should be bought vehicles, that they should have included under Ntlo ya Dikgosi? Now when you say offices set up or that they have staff employed for them, Ntlo ya Dikgosi, it means you have left most of Dikgosi Councillors should have offices built for them, like some outside. The issue is not answered as to what you are Members were saying or if they are bought vehicles, it saying about them. We cannot get you clearly on that would not be us doing that, it would be the independent point. Thank you. committee. It is independent of the Executive; us here and the Cabinet, as it would be working, it would be MR MTHIMKHULU: Yes. First and foremost, I working there alone and then it would come up with am saying let us agree Honourable Gobotswang that recommendations and then those would be implemented. although they are Dikgosi, they are not equal in terms of their statuses or hierarchy. There are Dikgosi in Ntlo MR HIKUAMA: Clarification. Thank you Honourable ya Dikgosi who might be on a certain scale in terms of Minister for giving me this opportunity. I am glad I their hierarchy. Then there would be those who follow am talking to a lawyer, someone who studied law and them as we have the Headmen of Arbitration, those who understands a lot of things. Do you not realise that are lower, who are different from those at the Ntlo ya debating this Bill can give us an opportunity to look Dikgosi. They differ. That is why I gave you an example at some disturbing sections in our employment Act? of the Magistrates and Judges, that they are different. Perhaps we should look into them and make amendments Even the way their salaries are considered, it is different. instead of amending one side and leaving the other side as it is. There should be a holistic restructuring of the I also gave you an example of a public service employee pay structures or in terms of the working conditions of who happens to be a driver or officers whom we know, workers in Botswana. the professionals, be it a lawyer, a doctor or whatever; yet they are public service employees who do not fall under MR MTHIMKHULU: No, this is why I am saying that Government officers referred to as Specified Officers. you are causing confusion, you want to use this Bill to They differ, and they are not treated the same. For some, talk about things which are not laid before Parliament every time their salaries have to be increased, a Minister today. The Bill that is before Parliament today talks has to come to Parliament, as you know Honourable Dr about remunerations for Members of Parliament, Gobotswang. So, those people are different. Dikgosi, Councillors and Specified Officers. It does not talk about the whole civil service, it does not talk about Therefore, we cannot group them under the same Act everyone. We are not talking about some of the things of Parliament yet from time immemorial they have not you talked about Honourable Hikuama. Let us restrict been treated the same way. We will not be doing justice ourselves to what is on the table, what is before us today, to ourselves and we would be unfair to Batswana to say what we are supposed to talk about. Let us talk about a they should be grouped together, yet we know that they Standing Committee on Remuneration of Members of cannot be put together at all. the National Assembly, Councillors, Ntlo ya Dikgosi So again you are saying others are not under the and Specified Offices. In fact, we are not talking about Government pay structure, you are saying they are at salary increments nor are we talking about amending Local Government or wherever. If there is that challenge, anybody’s working conditions. We are talking about

50 Hansard No 201 Tuesday 6th April, 2021 STANDING COMMITTEE ON REMUNERATION (MEMBERS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY, COUNCILLORS, NTLO YA DIKGOSI AND SPECIFIED OFFICERS) BILL, 2021 (NO. 4 OF 2021) Second Reading (Resumed Debate) a committee that should be established, and if there is HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. something that needs to be looked into, it should be handled by the committee. These are the representations MR MTHIMKHULU: …after setting up the that maybe we can make before the committee, if committee... there is something that you wish could be looked into, MR LEUWE: On a point of clarification. Thank you something in line with remuneration of Members of Mr Speaker. Honourable Members, I hear you when Parliament, Councillors, Dikgosi and Specified Officers, you talk about the complaint in regard to the 6 per you have an opportunity to make that representation cent which we often talk about, but the issue is that before that committee. Today the issue on the table is to Councillors were supposed to get the 6 per cent even turn this Bill into a law in order to set up that committee. before presenting the Bill. Why did they not get the 6 After setting up this Committee, it will go and look into per cent increment even before introducing a revised the issues which you are talking about, and it will assess law because we cannot punish them with a Bill that has them thoroughly. After it looks into them, perhaps it will not yet been passed, even though they were given the 6 later on present that recommendation in order to revise per cent while under Ministry of Local Government and or not to revise some things. Rural Development? Thank you.

I would also like to emphasise that, today the issue is MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Members, not about… Honourable Mthimkhulu time is up. It is now six ASSISTANT MINISTER OF INVESTMENT, o’clock, I now call upon the Honourable Leader of the TRADE AND INDUSTRY (MR MOLEBATSI): On House to move a Motion of adjournment. a point of elucidation. Mr Speaker, I want to emphasise MOTION the point that the Honourable Members were out of order, they heard that we are talking about Dikgosi ADJOURNMENT at Ntlo ya Dikgosi yet they wanted to include people LEADER OF THE HOUSE (MR TSOGWANE): who are not listed in the Bill. I agree with Honourable Thank you Mr Speaker. Can you not allow the Mthimkhulu, he is on the right track by explaining that Honourable Members who do not understand this Bill we are talking about a committee. Other issues about to attend a workshop first because they still do not what has to be done should be presented before that understand it Mr Speaker? With those few comments I committee. Thank you. move that this House do now adjourn. MR MTHIMKHULU: We understood each other and Question put and agreed to. I entirely agree with you Honourable Molebatsi that we are trying to set up a committee, a committee that The Assembly accordingly adjourned at 6:06 p.m. until is going to handle issues pertaining to remunerations Wednesday 7th April, 2021 at 2:00 p.m. of Members of Parliament, Dikgosi and Councillors and we are not even talking about the 6 per cent or 4 per cent increment for public servants which was agreed last time. No, we are not on those issues, those issues are far ahead. Perhaps if we can hurry to talk about them, we might obstruct the committee to look into issues pertaining to remunerations of Members of Parliament, Dikgosi and Councillors with an open mind. We cannot stress the point that there should be a 6 per cent increment, because perhaps after the committee sits and after listening to the representations of the relevant people it would say no, there should be 20 per cent while we are here stressing the 6 per cent issue, we do not know. Let us not jump the gun, let us wait for the committee, the committee, what is it…... (Interruption)…

Hansard No 201 51 HANSARD RECORDERS Mr. T. Gaodumelwe, Mr T. Monakwe, Ms T. D. Kebonang HANSARD REPORTERS Mr M. Buti, Ms Z. Molemi, Mr J. Samunzala, Ms N. Selebogo, Ms A. Ramadi, Ms D. Thibedi, Ms G. Baotsi, Ms N. Mokoka

HANSARD EDITORS Ms K. Nyanga, Ms C. Chonga, Mr K. Goeme, Ms G. Phatedi, Ms B. Malokwane, Mr A. Mokopakgosi, Ms O. Nkatswe, Ms G. Lekopanye, Ms T. Mokhure, Ms B. Ratshipa HANSARD TRANSLATORS Ms B. Ntisetsang, Ms M. Sekao, Ms B. Mosinyi, Ms V. Nkwane, Ms N. Kerobale, Ms K. Motswakhumo, Ms T. Motsau, Ms O. Phesodi, Mr K. Setswe

LAYOUT DESIGNERS Mr B. B. Khumanego, Mr D. T. Batshegi, Mr K. Rebaisakae

52 Hansard No 201