NTLO YA DIKGOSI CHAIRMAN Kgosi Puso Batlokwa DEBATES DEPUTY CHAIRMAN Kgosi T. F. Tshipe Region MEMBERS Kgosi K. Boiditswe Region Kgosi I. Gaoonwe Region Kgosi B. Garebakwena Region Kgosi M. Kahiko III West Kgosi S. H. Kgamane Bangwato Kgosi Kgari III Bakwena Kgosi K. Lempadi Okavango Region Kgosi Lotlamoreng II Barolong Kgosi O. Machilidza Boteti Region Kgosi M. Malema Bobirwa Region Kgosi Malope II Bangwaketse Kgosi T. M. North East THE PROCEEDINGS Kgosi M. Mmualefhe Chobe Region Kgosi A. O. Monnaathebe Kgosi P. K. Montshiwa Kgalagadi North of the Kgosi K. Moremi Batawana Kgosi S. Moroka Tswapong Kgosi J. Moseki Ghanzi East 11TH MEETING Kgosi T. B. Ndzonga Kgosi B. Ramokone Kanye Kgosi K. Ramokwena Maun

28 January - 01 February 2013 28 January of the Kgosi E. Potsoeng Ngami Region Kgosi M. Seboko Balete OFFICIAL REPORT - ELEVENTH MEETING OFFICIAL REPORT Kgosi P. Seeletso Region 2ND NTLO YA DIKGOSI Kgosi P. Sekwenyane Ngwaketse West Kgosi K. Telekelo (Official Report) Kgosi Toto II Kgalagadi South Kgosi S. Esterhuizen Specially Elected P O Box 240, Gaborone Tel: 3616800 Fax: 3913103 Kgosi M. Moeti Specially Elected e-mail: [email protected] Sitting from Kgosi M. Seemeko Specially Elected OFFICIAL REPORT - 11TH MEETING Kgosi M. M. Sinvula Specially Elected www.parliament.gov.bw 28 January - 01 February 2013 Kgosi T. Xao Specially Elected OF THE 2ND NTLO YA DIKGOSI i ii Printed by Government Printing and Publishing Services, Gaborone 28 January - 01 February 2013 Table of Contents

Chairman’s Remarks ...... 4, 21, 66, 85, 154

Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) First Reading ...... 6 Resumed Debate...... 22 Second Reading...... 38 Second Reading (Resumed Debate)...... 67 Resolution...... 83 Resolution (Resumed Debate)...... 104

Election of the Chairperson of Ntlo ya Dikgosi...... 1 Secretary : N. Thebe Election of the Deputy Chairperson Ass. Secretary : M. Moreri of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi...... 2

Proof Reading : E. Jean Motion Review of Protocol on the Layout : Bakang B. Khumanego Order of Precedence...... 154 Dennis T. Batshegi Kebonye M. Setshube Questions for Oral Answer ...... 85, 137 Re-Election of Deputy Chairman...... 4 Edited by : K. Nyanga

Translated by : K. Ben M. Kagiso B. Morakanyane

Typesetting : Hansard Reporters

iii iv Monday 28th January, 2013 Election of the Chairperson of Ntlo ya Dikgosi Monday 28th January, 2013 SECRETARY OF NTLO YA DIKGOSI: Kgosi Puso THE HOUSE met at 10 a.m. Gaborone has been nominated to stand as Chairperson, is there (THE CHAIRPERSON in the any seconder? Chair) KGOSI KAHIKO III: I second P R A Y E R S that.

* * * * SECRETARY OF NTLO YA ELECTION OF THE DIKGOSI: Kgosi Puso, do you CHAIRPERSON OF accept to stand f NTLO YA DIKGOSI KGOSI PUSO GABORONE: I SECRETARY OF NTLO YA accept the nomination. DIKGOSI (MS N. THEBE): SECRETARY OF NTLO Good morning Honourable YA DIKGOSI: Any other Members, our first order of nomination for the Chairperson? business is the election of the Chairperson. Every Member of KGOSI MOETI II: Kgosi this Honourable House has the Masunga right to stand for the elections SECRETARY OF NTLO YA and I would like to briefly take DIKGOSI: Kgosi Masunga Members through the voting has been nominated for process. Those who wish to Chairmanship of the House, any nominate a candidate should seconder? show that by raising their hands HONOURABLE MEMBERS: and there has to be a Member ... (Silence).... who seconds that nomination then the candidate will have to SECRETARY OF NTLO YA accept the nomination. All the DIKGOSI: There is no seconder names of the nominees will be for Kgosi Masunga. According written on the chalkboard and to our Rules of Procedure the voting shall then commence. Kgosi Puso Gaborone has been We will take nominees for the unanimously elected as the Chairman of this House. We Chairperson. shall adjourn for few minutes KGOSI TSHIPE: Kgosi Puso to allow him to wear his robe. Gaborone. He shall then run the elections 1 Monday 28th January, 2013 Election of the Deputy Monday 28th January, 2013 Election of the Deputy Chairperson of Ntlo ya Dikgosi Chairperson of Ntlo ya Dikgosi of Deputy Chairperson of the MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you. MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi vote have voted, the Secretary House. Congratulations Kgosi Do we have other nominees? Lotlamoreng II wishes to stand shall examine the ballot papers Puso! for the elections. Do we still have and reject any that do not KGOSI SEKWENYANE: another nominee for the Deputy comply with the provisions of ELECTION OF THE Kgosi Tshipe. Chairman? Paragraph 6 above and count DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON the number of votes obtained by MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi Tshipe OF NTLO YA DIKGOSI HONOURABLE MEMBERS: each candidate and mark against has been nominated, is there any … (Silence)…. each candidate’s name on the MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI seconder to this nomination? chalk board the number of votes PUSO GABORONE): Good MR CHAIRMAN: There are KGOSI SEELETSO: I second polled.” morning Honourable Members, no more nominations for the it. His Honour the Vice President Deputy Chairperson. We have (Counting of votes...) and our distinguished guests. We MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi three nominees for the Deputy shall now proceed to the election Tshipe’s name has been Chairman of the House; Kgosi The results are as follows: of the Deputy Chairman and the seconded; do you wish to stand Machilidza, Kgosi Tshipe and Kgosi Machilidza has received same procedure as that of the for the elections Kgosi Tshipe? Kgosi Lotlamoreng II. These 12 votes, Kgosi Tshipe also election of the Chairman shall are the names which Members received 12 votes and Kgosi KGOSI TSHIPE: I wish to be used. The floor is open for will vote on. The Secretary Lotlamoreng II received 9 votes. stand Mr Chairman. nominations. will distribute ballot papers to Therefore according to our Rules MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi Tshipe Honourable Members. Each of Procedure, Second Schedule, KGOSI KAHIKO III: Thank will stand for the elections, do ballot paper should contain Rule 10 under the election you Mr Chairman. I nominate we have another nominee? only the name of the candidate of Chairperson and Deputy Kgosi Machilidza. being voted for and nothing Chairperson; “if two or more KGOSI MOSEKI: Kgosi candidates have an equal number Lotlamoreng II. else, otherwise that vote will be MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi considered spoilt. I therefore of votes each, which number is Machilidza has been nominated; MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi request the Secretary to call out greater than the number of votes do we have a seconder for Kgosi Lotlamoreng II has been the names of Members to cast obtained by any other candidate, Machilidza? nominated; do we have a their votes in the provided ballot then such candidates shall be seconder to the nomination? box. candidates in a second poll KGOSI RAMOKWENA: to be held in accordance with Thank you Mr Chairman, I KGOSI TELEKELO: I second SECRETARY: I will call out the the nomination Mr Chairman. provisions of this schedule.” second the nomination for Kgosi Members in alphabetical order to We have two Members with Machilidza. MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi come and vote. an equal number of votes. We Lotlamoreng’s name has been will therefore proceed to the MR CHAIRMAN: We have a seconded; do you wish to stand (Voting process on going…) second poll. We are going to seconder, Kgosi Machilidza do Kgosi Lotlamoreng II? you wish to stand for the elections MR CHAIRMAN: We vote between Kgosi Machilidza of the Deputy Chairperson? KGOSI LOTLAMORENG have completed our election and Kgosi Tshipe, Honourable II: If the Members wish for Honourable Members. According Members. The Secretary will KGOSI MACHILIDZA: I wish me to stand I will stand for the to Rule 9 of the second schedule; now distribute ballot papers to stand Mr Chairman. elections. “when all Members who wish to and your names will be called 2 3 Monday 28th January, 2013 Chairman’s Remarks Monday 28th January, 2013 Chairman’s Remarks alphabetically as you cast your congratulate Kgosi Tshipe on this House to greater heights. I Minister of Presidential Affairs votes in the ballot box. being elected the new Deputy have been the Chairperson of and Public Administration. We Chairperson. this House for the past 4 years also have a relationship with RE-ELECTION OF DEPUTY and I believe that the mandate of other organizations and this CHAIRMAN Honourable Members, the House is clearly stated in the has been brought about by the SECRETARY OF NTLO the newly elected Deputy Constitution of the Republic of capacitation programmes for YA DIKGOSI (N. THEBE): Chairperson Kgosi Tshipe that we are an advisory Dikgosi. Honourable Ministers Tshipe, the outgoing Deputy I will call out the Members in body to the National Assembly, and His Honour the Leader of Chairman, Kgosi Lotlamoreng alphabetical order to come and II, the Leader of the House, as well as the Executive of the House, I would like to inform vote. His Honour the Vice President the Republic of Botswana. I you that we completed five days CHAIRMAN’S Dr Ponatshego Kedikilwe, would like to promise Members of training at Botswana National REMARKS Cabinet Ministers, Members that we will continue with the Productivity Centre (BNPC) on of the Diplomatic Community, good work that we have been strategic planning. This was to MR CHAIRMAN: The Ministry of Local Government doing as we have had so many empower Dikgosi on how to plan Secretary shall now examine and Rural Development staff, accomplishments for the past their duties strategically. It is our the ballot papers and reject any the Acting Director of Tribal four years. The House has been commitment to continue with this that does not comply with the Administration, Customary actively involved in a number of form of empowerment, training Rules of Procedure and count Court of Appeal Staff, Private activities or projects. We recently is going to remain our main the number of votes polled. If it Sector and Non-Governmental completed building a house for focus area. Through this form happens that the candidates have Organizations, students, Media a destitute at Manyana. In the of empowerment, we will be the same number of votes again, and the Ntlo Ya Dikgosi staff who past year we held a cultural day able to make informed decisions we will have to toss a coin to have arranged for the seating of and through that we wanted to and advise the Government on determine the Deputy Chairman. this House, a very good morning show the nation that as a House issues that are not only related Rule 11 states that, “a candidate to you all. Honourable Members and as a National Institution, to culture. Let me once more who has received more votes at it is with a great sense of Honour our Mandate is the promotion thank you for trusting us to lead a poll than any other candidate and humility that I personally and preservation of culture. this House. We will not fail you Therefore as Dikgosi, we should shall be forthwith declared to accept the responsibility of being be the ones taking the lead in the Honourable Members, we shall have been duly elected to that elected the Chairperson of this promotion and preservation of continue to consult with you on position by the presiding officer.” important institution. I believe culture. every aspect so that we take this (Counting of votes) that the Deputy Chairperson House further. Pula! would also concur with me in We are still actively engaged in The results are as follows: Kgosi thanking you for electing him the process of reviewing the Rules After this session, Honourable Machilidza has received 15 and for having trusted and given of Procedure of this House and Members together with the votes while Kgosi Tshipe has us the opportunity to serve this we hope that once that exercise Leader of the House His Honour received 17 votes, one Member Institution. I believe that for the is complete we shall have a the Vice President will take a has abstained. According to Rule term that we are going to serve House that is run effectively and group photo just by the portico. 11, Kgosi Tshipe has been duly we will lead the House through efficiently. I believe that once we Immediately after the group elected the Deputy Chairperson consultation and cooperation have completed the exercise we photo we would like to invite of this House. I wish to therefore with the Members in order to take shall present the resolution to the our distinguished guests to some 4 5 Monday 28th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, Monday 28th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 Of 2012) First Reading 2012 (No. 21 Of 2012) First Reading refreshments by the marquee the general merits. At the Second • Divisions of Customary 22 and 23 by removing the just next to the Ntlo Ya Dikgosi Reading stage we shall look at Court of Appeal be set up requirements that, warrants Chamber. We shall adjourn it clause by clause, considering in a similar fashion as those of committal should be for refreshments and we will the details of every clause and of the High Court to cover countersigned by Administrative resume at 2.30 p.m. Thank you, making comments on such other parts of the country. Officers. This is intended to Honourable Members and Your clauses. We shall now start the eliminate delays which occur b) The need to review the Honour the Vice President. business of the House as it is on where Administrative Officers establishment and jurisdiction the Order Paper. are not readily available to of the Customary Courts Act PROCEEDINGS countersign as required. SUSPENDED FOR FIRST READING in particular the First, Second REFRESHMENTS and Third Schedules. This means that Clauses 13, The following Bill was presented c) The establishment of the 14, 16, 17, 18 and 19 amend MR CHAIRMAN: Good and read the First Time: Court Bailiff Cadre. Sections 28, 29,33,34,35, and afternoon Honourable Members. CUSTOMARY COURTS 36 respectively to increase the Let me welcome you once more In particular Mr Chairman, the fines that can be imposed by to this House after the morning (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2012 (NO. 21 OF 2012) following amendments have Customary Courts from P50.00 session. As we proceed with been introduced: and P100.00 to P500.00 and P1, the business of the House as ASSISTANT MINISTER OF 000.00 respectively. it appears on the order paper, Clause 2 of the Bill amends LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND I would like to introduce our Section 2 by inserting new RURAL DEVELOPMENT Clause 22 of the Bill amends Learned Parliamentary Counsel, definitions for the words “Lower (HON TSHIRELETSO): Section 41 by providing that Ms Morolong, she is standing Customary Courts” and “Higher Thank you Mr Chairman. I beg Customary Courts of Appeal in for our usual Parliamentary Customary Courts”, to ensure to present the Customary Courts should be established through Counsel. She will be with us for clarity in the hierarchy of the (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 statutory instruments to ensure this entire meeting. Please do Customary Courts. There are also of 2012) for First Reading. Mr that the instrument establishing welcome her to this House. We new definitions for the words Chairman, the Customary Court them formed part of the statute shall be considering the Local “Court Bailiff” and “Customary Act has come about as a sequel book. It also empowers the Government Bill and questions Court of Appeal”. of amongst others the following: Minister to appoint a President and motions as per the notice of the Customary Court of Clause 3 of the Bill inserts a paper. I believe that a copy of a) The Second Presidential Appeal. The President of the new Section 6(A) to provide this Bill has been allocated to Commission on Local for the appointment of Court Customary Court of Appeal shall Members and they have gone Government Paper no. 1 Bailiffs who will now perform in addition to his judicial duties through it. of 2003 recommended at some of the duties that used to also be tasked with supervising 5.3.3.(a) the administration of customary Procedurally, the Bill follows be performed by Local Police Officers who have since been courts of appeal. three phases after presentation; • That Section 41, Subsection transferred to the Botswana the First reading, the Second 1 of the Customary Courts Police Service. Clause 23 of the Bill inserts reading and the Resolution Act be amended to provide a new Section 41 (A) which stages. At the First Reading of for one Customary Court of Mr Chairman, Clauses 9 and provides for the constitution of the Bill, we will be focusing on Appeal. 10 of the Bill amends Sections Customary Courts of Appeal. 6 7 Monday 28th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, Monday 28th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 Of 2012) First Reading 2012 (No. 21 Of 2012) First Reading Mr Chairman, in conclusion, I KGOSI MACHILIDZA discussed included demarcation positive, Mr Chairman. It appears hope Honourable Members will (BOTETI REGION): Thank of the Bogosi Regions, where we like Dikgosi are not progressing. assist me in perfecting this law by you Mr Chairman. Let me have and Sub Districts. It seems when people are coming up with suggestions for thank Honourable Members as This Bill is silent on that issue; declared custodians of culture, improvement where necessary. I well. I have just lost the Deputy it just states that cases from they are not supposed to make thank you and move accordingly Chairmanship elections but I Commissioners should any progress. Mr Chairman, Mr Chairman. have to get back to work. progress to the Customary Court when a village is setup, a of Appeal. We have always Headman of Record is appointed HONOURABLE MEMBERS MR CHAIRMAN: Thank talked about increasing the to head that village. However, :( laughter!) you Honourable Minister. Powers of Dikgosi. If cases are those villages do not progress in Honourable Members, the KGOSI MACHILIDZA being referred to the Customary anyway; even the years in which Honourable Minister has (BOTETI REGION): I would Court of Appeal it means that the village has been in existence presented the Customary Court like to thank the Honourable there is no trust in us as Dikgosi. are not considered. It is time to (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No 21 Minister for presenting the The Minister has powers to consider promoting Dikgosana of 2012) and has stated reasons Customary Courts (Amendment) determine the cases which looking at their performance for proposing the Amendment. Bill, (No. 21 of 2012). I have proceed to the Court of Appeal, and not the village population. I believe Members have gone through the Bill and I Ministers should have powers understood the presentation. I so he can appoint some Dikgosi understand where it is coming to inform Kgosikgolo about would like to remind you of Part to hear cases before they proceed from. Kgosi Masunga once upgrading requests he receives 8, Rule 39 of Procedure on Bills; to a higher court. addressed Members of this House from communities. The Minister Subsection 4 states that, “when on this Bill and we submitted our Moving on with this Bill; some should be able to take action the first reading of a Bill is taken, contributions. We had thought of the amendments call for should there be any delays to the Chairperson shall move that that our contributions would improvement in the Bogosi process requests. This would the Bill be read a First Time and make a difference in the system. Hierarchy. We used to have improve developments in a debate may then arise on the District Commissioners have the Kgosi, Deputy Kgosi, Senior communities. Many villages question covering the general powers to overrule the judgments Chief Representative, Chief have been in existence for about merits and principles of the made by Dikgosi and that implies Representative and Headman 40 to 50 years and they are at Bill. At the conclusion of such Dikgosi are incompetent. This of Record, but this is not well Headman level and I do not think debate, no question shall be put undermines Bogosi in general covered in the new Bill. The that procedurally, that should and question on the motion shall because even when Dikgosi’s titles which were captured in be the case. There has to be a be deemed to have been agreed judgments are overruled, they are English in the old Act should provision in the Bill to give the to”. We have gone through the never informed of the reasons for appear in brackets alongside Minister some powers to upgrade First Reading stage, Honourable such action. We requested that Setswana titles in the Bill. In the those villages. Mr Chairman, Members. I will now open the District Commissioners should central Region, it appears like we there is another issue with regards floor for Members to debate not be given this responsibility. do not have Sub Chiefs. I do not to officers who serve in our the Bill’s general merits and I had thought that the powers of know whether these titles have Dikgotla. We have Secretaries principles. At the conclusion of Dikgosi will be increased in this been left out for good or they will and Court Bailiffs but it is not this debate, no question shall be amendmend Bill. In the previous just be ceremonial in the Act. clear if Kgosi of that village put on the motion. Bill, the issues that were Amendments in Laws should be supervises them or not. A lot of

8 9 Monday 28th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, Monday 28th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 Of 2012) First Reading 2012 (No. 21 Of 2012) First Reading duties are communicated from ‘Appeals’ Mr Chairman. It will or even to carry handcuffs. How I believe that Dikgosi want to Central Government at Tribal not be possible for all the appeals will they possibly perform those have that in their structure as it Secretary Level. Kgosi does not to go straight to the Customary duties Mr Chairman? This issue is the case with other Regions. have any powers to supervise Court of Appeal without should be clear because I do not There has to be uniformity in these officers according to this being attended to by Chief see that happening. Thank you the Bogosi structure for all Bill, Mr Chairman. Kgosi should Representative, Senior Chief, Mr Chairman. the regions. I believe that the be given powers to supervise and Mothusa Kgosi and Kgosikgolo. KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH level of transformation that we reprimand these officers if need These should not be compared EAST): Thank you Mr need in terms of empowering Tribal Administration will be be. He should also have a say in to cases from Magistrates courts Chairman for the presentation of possible only if we could start by whatever happens in the village. which go to the High Court. the Bill. I would like to look at addressing the structure. Mr Chairman, this Bill states that There are only a few Magistrates the definition of Kgosi, Mothusa the Court Bailiff ‘shall carry out Courts in Botswana therefore Kgosi or Moemela Kgosi even to There was a merger of the Police any other lawful duty as may be making it possible for the cases the Lower Court. Mr Chairman, Officers and Court Bailiffs were assigned to him by a Member…’ to go through to the High Court maybe we are rushing to amend employed to replace the Tribal It should be clearly stipulated for Appeal. When we look at our the Act before attending to the Police but we do not know whether the term ‘Member’ Dikgotla headed by Headman Bogosi structure. In Bogosi, their job description. Since the refers to Kgosi or Kgosana. of Arbitration, we have quite a there are definitions ofKgosi and introduction of these officers, Perhaps other Members are number of those and should we an outline of the duties as well the department has not given comfortable with it but I am not, take the route of passing all the as the history of that particular itself a chance to try and fit I feel that it should read either cases to the Customary Court Kgosi. I suggest that the them into the existing structure. Kgosi or Kgosana. Kgosi should of Appeal, there is going to be structure for Bogosi, especially Mr Chairman, Kgosi Lempadi have supervisory powers over a backlog at the appeal court. in the North East District, should talked about cases that do not officers such as Court Bailiffs. People are going to serve and be reviewed. Even Chobe, follow the Kgotla system process My last point is that Headmen of complete their sentences before Kgalagadi and Gantsi Regions to reach the Customary Court of Arbitration should be recognised. their appeals are attended to due have a similar challenge, there Appeal. I feel that it is procedural They should be part of the to an overwhelming number of are ten (10) Dikgosi performing because any pronouncement of Bill as well as the consultative cases at the Customary Court of full functions of Bogosi yet they any judgment is representative process. We are very aware that Appeal. This has been tried before are not Senior Tribal Authority of that institution and not an and it failed. We had suggested the Government remunerates nor Chief Representatives and individual, that institution is the that Dikgosikgolo handle the them but they should also be Court and when that Court has appeals but the exercise created a I form part of these Dikgosi. I part of this Bill. Thank you Mr believe that the time has come made a ruling then there is no Chairman. backlog of cases as Dikgosikgolo could not try all the cases. to review the Bogosi structure how the same court can review its MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you in these areas so that it becomes own ruling. If we were to follow Kgosi Machilidza. Moving on to the issue of Court clearer in the new Act. The a process where a case will Bailiffs Mr Chairman; it is said regions should benefit from be tried by the same authority KGOSI LEMPADI that they are going to perform the the Act as well. That is my first and the same people, somehow (OKAVANGO REGION): duties that were performed by observation Mr Chairman. The we will prejudice the outcome Thank you Mr Chairman. I would Local Police Officers, but they North East District does not of cases. Customary Court of like to comment on the issue of do not have warrants of arrest have a Chief Representative but Appeal is an independent body 10 11 Monday 28th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, Monday 28th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 Of 2012) First Reading 2012 (No. 21 Of 2012) First Reading which I believe, that when a retain a few who worked as we have unique situations in of Record level. This has to be person has been sentenced, Police Officers. Court Bailiffs different regions. We have our corrected so that the structure whatever remedy of justice they are young people and I request own unique situation in North remains uniform across all need is to step outside the very that they should be trained. They West Region and I would like regions. Just like other Members same system and have a different need to be equipped with proper to urge the Minister to consider have highlighted, there is that perception, the belief is that they competencies and resources the customs and traditions of difference in the structure. Other will get fair justice. must be available. Thank you Mr Tribal communities because the regions have Senior Tribal Chairman. situation is not pleasant. There Authority and therefore this has We however, always complain should be uniformity across to be clearly stated as to why that the Customary Court of KGOSI MOETI II all Regions, like Kgosi has only the Higher Customary Court Appeal discharges and acquits (SPECIALLY ELECTED): pointed out. In other regions, is presided over by a Kgosi, the accused persons without first Thank you Mr Chairman, I customs and traditions of other Mothusa Kgosi or Moemela making an attempt to call all would like to add on to what Tribal Authorities as well as Kgosi. In this Bill Kgosana refers the parties. Customary Court of Kgosi Masunga was saying; that the hierarchy are taken into to Headman of Record, but we Appeal does not reach our region we ought to have uniformity in consideration. Naturally in the are used to referring to Headman Mr Chairman but in reaches the Bogosi structure. He cited Bogosi Institution, what matters of Arbitration as Kgosana, other areas. Most of the time we examples and left out my Region most is the hierarchy within this has to be corrected Mr do not learn the basis on which because he does not know the Bogosi. It is all about Tribes Chairman. This structure always it discharges and acquits the situation there. It is not that and who is the eldest in that leaves Headman of Arbitration people and the concerned parties bad but it needs the Ministry’s particular Tribal Community. In out but Kgosi is assisted by them, my Region, that is not the case. are not always there when that is attention. In my Region there they work hand in hand with Thank you Mr Chairman. done. I request that this matter are many Tribal Territories with the community together with be looked into. The Customary different customs and traditions KGOSI RAMOKWENA Kgosi. Even their line of duty is Court of Appeal office should sit and their Tribal Authorities. (MAUN REGION): Mr not clearly defined. This has led at the place where the case was For instance, in one area the Chairman I do not understand to some of them being sent to originally heard so that Kgosi Tribal Community may be led the clause where the Bill talks jail as a result of overstepping in that area could appreciate the by one person who follows the about Bogosi and states Kgosi, their mark due to lack of role grounds that led to the release Governmental structure, while Mothusa Kgosi, and Moemela clarity. Job specifications of of the accused. I think that it is that person is not rightfully the Kgosi and then classifies the Headmen of Arbitration should just fair enough and it would be leader in terms of customs and Lower Court as a Court that is be clearly provided. We have a learning process Mr Chairman. traditions of a particular Tribal presided over by Kgosana. In even addressed the issue with Those are the two areas I wanted Community. That is where the Goo Tawana there is Kgosikgolo, Honourable Peter Siele some time to comment on. The last point confusion is and it should be Mothusa Kgosi, and Moemela back when we met at Maharaja is that we are happy because addressed to avoid tribalism Kgosi yo Mogolwane (Senior and we are hoping for a change. at least for now Court Bailiffs and probably politicising the Chief Representative). However The Government should review have been absorbed into the whole situation. Apart from that the Bill has left out the Senior this structure so that Headmen of system. The merger took the certain individuals may think Chief Representative whereas Arbitration are included as they experienced officers even though that Tribal customs are not the structure recognizes the form part of the Government. It the Government has tried to important. We are aware that Moemela Kgosi up to Headman is not fair for them to be left out

12 13 Monday 28th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, Monday 28th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 Of 2012) First Reading 2012 (No. 21 Of 2012) First Reading of the structure while they are in for example, its structure has had thought that Dikgosi would KGOSI BOIDITSWE the Government’s payroll. Thank Motshwarelela Kgosi while in explain it better as they are the (SEROWE REGION): Thank you Mr Chairman. other regions, like Mahalapye for ones nominating them in their you Mr Chairman for the example, we would have Senior regions. I thought Kgosi Puso presentation of this Bill. I would MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you Tribal Authority… wanted me to explain that part like to address two issues. The Kgosi Ramokwena. Before when he put me on the spot, I first one is on Court Bailiffs. At we move on and probably get KGOSI MOSADI: On a point of do not know if I did justice to times a smaller village is given confused along the way, I would clarification. The Minister should the clarification of the Bogosi a Court Bailiff while a bigger like to call on the Minister to clearly explain the Bangwato structure. Thank you. village is given an Assistant explain this Bogosi issue. Kgosi region structure because it may Court Bailiff. This is confusing has said that there is only Kgosi, appear that it does not appear in MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you because I believe that Court Mothusa Kgosi and Moemela this Bill. Let the Minister explain Honourable Minister. I had Bailiffs are allocated according Kgosi in his Region. Can the this structure fully because I wanted us to clear the confusion to the needs of a particular Minister explain why there is am aware that they have Tribal which came as a result of the village. Before I go any further, a High Customary Court and a Authority while she is talking structure proposed by this Bill the former Secretaries who have Lower Customary Court? She about Motshwarelela Kgosi. because it explains and classifies been promoted to Court Bailiff should also differentiate between Thank you Mr Chairman. the High and Lower Customary positions are the only ones who a Kgotla which has Kgosikgolo, Courts. A Higher Customary seem excited about their new Mothusa Kgosi, and Moemela HONOURABLE Court is presided over by a posts. As for those who have Kgosi yo Mogolwane, Moemela TSHIRELETSO: I am not certain level of Kgosi while been deployed from Botswana Kgosi and Headman of Record conversant with that one. the Lower Customary Court Local Police Service, they still and the ones which do not have We are all aware that there is is presided over by a different feel that they were not consulted those positions in their structure. Motshwarelela Kgosi at the level of Kgosi. Initially we had on the move to deploy them to be This could assist us to have Bangwato region, and I had only one Court which operated Court Bailiffs. There is nothing a clear understanding of the wanted to compare this with documented which facilitates structure as we go along. Bogosi the Ngwaketse area. Bangwato as both the Lower and Higher that deployment. This lack of and its structure seem to bring would have Senior Tribal Customary Court depending consultation has led to most of in a lot of confusion. Could the Authority, Sub Tribal Authority on the level at which the case their benefits being stopped. Minister clarify on that matter? and Headman of Record; we was received by a particular These Court Bailiffs look up to have not changed that structure. Kgosi. The structure should be Bogosi and await the resolution ASSISTANT MINISTER OF The situation in for that clear. We shall move on LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND example is that when they are of this House regarding this but let me advise Honourable RURAL DEVELOPMENT in their areas they are referred to Bill as they still maintain that Members that as we debate, let (HON TSHIRELETSO): as Senior Chief Representatives they have not signed anything Thank you Mr Chairman. I but then I get confused too us remember that we are only in terms of contract binding had thought that we are in the by the differences. Others are looking at the general merits and them to work as Court Bailiffs. same line of understanding. referred to as Senior Sub Tribal principles of the Bill. I know It therefore remains difficult There is not much difference Authority while others are Chief there are other issues relating to to align their posts into the Mr Chairman, it depends on Representatives yet those are the Bogosi structure as stated by the existing structure Mr Chairman. the area. In (Ga Mmangwato) same in the Bogosi structure. I . Given the Tribal Administration

14 15 Monday 28th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, Monday 28th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 Of 2012) First Reading 2012 (No. 21 Of 2012) First Reading status Mr Chairman, an officer of why other elements of Bogosi warrants of arrest, if a witness KGOSI SEEMEKO is supposed to travel from are not outlined. Moving on to summoned to court fails to turn (SPECIALLY ELECTED): Ngwaketse for example to higher Customary Court and up, are these people empowered Thank you Mr Chairman. Maun to collect a mere P35 fine Lower Customary Court issue, enough to arrest that witness? Good afternoon once more. Mr charge. The Government spends I still wonder how we arrived If they are not empowered to Chairman, I support the Bill so much more on transport and at classifying Court President, arrest then how are they going because some of the things that fuel and I think we are operating Deputy Court President and to deliver? It would then mean we had proposed have been at a loss. Why do Court Bailiffs Headman of Record to preside that they have to seek assistance included. We have had qualms have to travel long distances to over a Lower Customary Court. from the Police to arrest that about low fines because we collect such fines? In this Bill, Court President and Moemela individual. Corporal punishment used to have P50 to P100 fines, Court Bailiffs are warranted to Kgosi have the same powers but assists in cautioning the offender but now the fines have been administer corporal punishment. their salaries differ. I need clarity not to repeat the offence. reviewed from P100 to P1000 Are they going to administer on that, Mr Chairman. On the Currently those who have been if I am correct. This is a great corporal punishment while some issue of the Customary Court employed cannot administer achievement which we had of their issues are still pending? of Appeal I agree that cases firm punishment. This is because proposed as Members. It was said that the elders who should proceed from a Lower presently 90% of them are ladies, We were also worried about are referred to as bo-ralekgotla Customary Court, a Higher young ladies for that matter, how cases which were referred to were the ones to administer this Customary Court and ultimately will they administer it? District Commissioners because punishment but they were not to the Customary Court of most of them were not trained keen to do so as the job was risky Appeal. We are not supposed to The law states that there is no in law therefore did not use any and they demanded payment delay justice. We had proposed indecent assault if a woman form of law when reviewing thereafter. They wanted to feel that there should be reviewing administers corporal punishment the cases. I believe that those secured and protected as they officers in districts to review the on a man but do these women are the reasons we forwarded were prone to being attacked workload at the Customary Court have that strength to administer that made it possible for the by offenders after they received of Appeal. The Minister would it? These are some of the cases to be passed straight to the punishment. I therefore appoint the reviewing officer things we should look into Mr Customary Court of Appeal, remain confused as to why Court in a district when need arises, Chairman. Lastly, it is high which is good. Mr Chairman, Bailiffs will administer corporal however this proposal is not in punishment while bo-ralekgotla time we established Headman the Court Bailiffs’ issues worry the Bill. It has not been included me because I do not know the and Police Officers are there to but it would assist more so that of Arbitration Courts and procedure which was followed do that. Thank you Mr Chairman. other Members feel that there is recognised the Headmen. These on their appointment. These going to be a backlog of cases. are highly important people in KGOSI KAHIKO III (GANTSI officers have been employed to the progression and development WEST REGION): Thank you We all agree that Court serve in Dikgotla where they of any Kgotla yet we do not Mr Chairman. I would like to Bailiffs should be employed are supposed to work and use contribute on the debate made but something is lacking. The recognize them. We should all Acts, Penal Code, Criminal by Honourable Members of this Honourable Member has said include them in the amendment Procedure and Evidence, just House. Firstly, I would like to that they have been empowered of these Acts so that they get the to mention a few. I believe that refer to Section 2 (2) of Bogosi despite the presence of the Police recognition they deserve. Thank the department should employ Act; it has a clear interpretation Officers. In ourDikgotla , we have you Mr Chairman. officers who have studied law 16 17 Monday 28th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, Monday 28th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 Of 2012) First Reading 2012 (No. 21 Of 2012) First Reading so that they would know which protected by any law therefore Court is presided over by Kgosi, terms of administering corporal law or Act to use when arresting this puts them at risk. That is why Mothusa Kgosi and Moemela punishment as other Members an offender. If the department we felt that Court Bailiffs should Kgosi, while the Lower Court are suggesting. Currently Court employs at direct entry level, as instead be protected by the law is presided over by Kgosana at Bailiffs are dealing with the it is the case, then the officers so that they can administer the Headman of Record level. A case backlog left by the Local Police should be taken on board through punishment. With regards to starts at Lower Court level then Officers. The third issue is that of orientations to usher them into Appeals, Mr Chairman, I do not goes through to Higher Court confiscation of goods; it is a great the law industry. There is another have any problem with cases for Appeal and after the Higher concern for the goods of offenders Section which worries me Mr going straight to the Customary Court that is when it goes to the to be confiscated because that Chairman. I am not against the Court of Appeal. Officers at the 3rd Court which is the Customary strips off their dignity. Furniture powers which have been given Customary Court of Appeal Court of Appeal. However, if a should be listed under the things to the Minister. This Bill states know the law and they would case is heard at a Higher Court, that must not be confiscated just that, “the Minister may dismiss know the procedure involved then it will not be appealed for like the tools they use to sustain or suspend for any period he when they review the cases. If in the same Court, this is where themselves. may deem fit any member who we are to take the case stage by the Customary Court of Appeal appears to have justly or for stage, we will continue to have comes in. To my understanding, My last point is that, we have any other sufficient reason, delays. At least when cases the Court President and the long requested that the fines be after affording such a member are at the Customary Court of Deputy Court President preside reviewed as they were just too low and they have since been an opportunity to be heard.” A Appeal, any form of delay will over the Lower Court but it does be between the Court and the reviewed, we are grateful for “Member” in this instance refers not mean that when they appeal that, Mr Chairman. Lastly, on to Kgosi and I remember well person who has applied for that their cases, they go straight to appeal. Thank you. the officers who preside over the that when this point was raised, the Customary Court of Appeal. Higher Court; Moemela Kgosi we requested that there should be KGOSI TSHIPE This is because we have different yo Mogolwane has been left community involvement. Kgosi (MAHALAPYE REGION): procedures even though we use out because Bogosi Act does works with the community and Thank you Mr Chairman. Before the same Act; their cases are not not have such but only provides this Clause should not be left this Bill was brought to this House similar to those tried at High for Moemela Kgosi, therefore Moemela Kgosi is used in this open. The community should be we had so many encounters Court. involved in this whole process. Bill for uniformity purposes. with the commission which was The second issue is that of Court I am not comfortable with this Thank you Mr Chairman. Bailiffs. They were employed to Section because at the end of it tasked with the consultation all it will disadvantage a lot of process. There are a few points take over from the Local Police MR CHAIRMAN: Thank people. which I want to comment on. officers after the merger of the you Deputy Chairman. You According to my understanding, Central and Local police. The job made two conclusions in your Mr Chairman, other Members when the Lower Court has tried descriptions they use are those of presentation; I noted that you have pointed out that Court a case, procedurally its Appeal former Local Police Officers, one made a conclusion on the last 2 Bailiffs should not administer is held at a Higher Court and of the duties performed by those points of your presentation. corporal punishment and that not straight to the Customary Police Officers was to administer it should be administered by Court of Appeal. I will try and corporal punishment among KGOSI TOTO II “ralekgotla”. Presently, Mr differentiate this according to other things. I really do not know (KGALAGADI SOUTH Chairman, “ralekgotla” is not how I understand it. The Higher where “ralekgotla” comes in in REGION): Thank you Mr 18 19 Monday 28th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Chairman’s Remarks 2012 (No. 21 Of 2012) First Reading Chairman. I am thankful for the included across the country, Mr a summons to their counterparts let us meet briefly after we have presentation of the Bill; I would Chairman. Moving on to the in so that they can adjourned so that we make a few like to say something on the one concerning appeals; when a serve those summonses on their announcements on the House. Bogosi structure even though the person has been tried in a given behalf in order to cut costs. In Thank you Honorable Members. Chairman has advised us to focus court by any Kgosi at any level, some instances this did not work more on other issues in the Bill. if that person feels that they do because other officers did not ADJOURNMENT This structure remains a serious not want their case to be heard by take action upon receiving the The meeting adjourned at 15.51 concern and has to be taken into the Kgosi at the next level, that summons. This is something p.m. until Tuesday 29th January, consideration. Mr Chairman, case proceeds to the Customary that should be looked into and 2013 at 9.30 a.m. the concern is that it appears Court of Appeal. The practice monitored to make sure that all th like when the law is enacted, is that we normally get a list summons are served when they Tuesday 29 January, 2013 are received. Some officers lose other regions are not catered for of appointments of presiding THE HOUSE met at 09:30 officers from different districts or their jobs at the expense of their but they are just taken on board a.m. just because they exist and have within the district coming for the counterparts. Thank you Mr. been established by the law. Customary Court of Appeal and Chairman. (THE CHAIRPERSON in the The Customary Court Acts and we do not know the criterion used Chair) to make those appointments. MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you Bogosi Act do not cover these very much Kgosi Toto. The P R A Y E R S areas; they are not included in time that is remaining before On the issue of Court Bailiffs Mr * * * * these acts. Our office structures Chairman; it is a good move to we adjourn is too little for any differ a lot from other office have replaced the Local Police Member to continue with the CHAIRMAN’S structures around the country. with the Court Bailiffs. Let me debate. Before we adjourn, let REMARKS Even the Bogosi structure, one just note though that due to lack me advise Honourable Members would wonder why there is no of resources within the Tribal to read this Bill once more MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI post between the Sub Chief and Administration department, at overnight, and understand it. GABORONE): Good Morning Headman of Record positions; one point they will not be able to We should also check if things Honourable Members and the that is if our structure starts at perform accordingly. They will suggested to the commission has Assistant Minister of Local sub Chief level. Currently, the not be able to issue summons and been captured well in a manner Government, Honourable Senior Chief is equivalent to to collect fines from offenders due that is understandable or not. I Tshireletso who has been with us the Sub Chief which no longer to lack of transport. If it happens would like to advise Members since yesterday. I also greet all exists. There is a gap between that a person owes the that as we approach the 3rd those who are accompanying her the Headman of Record and Customary Court and the person reading of this Bill, let us put as well as the Deputy Speaker Senior Chief Representative in relocates to Francistown it might our resolution drafts on paper. of the National Assembly, my region but in other regions, be difficult to reach them. That is We are still going to debate this Honourable Pono Pearson the gap has been filled. These are why we need transport to make a Bill Clause by Clause, where we Patson Moatlhodi, the media and some of the things which concern follow up on that person. There will all have a chance to propose all the members of staff that are us and really they degrade our have been developments though changes. We have come to the present this morning. When we regions. I therefore request whereby when the offender end of today’s business. We will adjourned yesterday, we were that when these amendments is in Francistown, then court meet tomorrow at 09.30 am in the still considering the Customary are made, let all the regions be bailiffs at Tsabong can forward morning. Honourable Members Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 20 21 Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) First Reading (Resumed Debate) First Reading (Resumed Debate)

(No. 21 of 2012). We shall now Chief Representative meaning as the Honourable Members. are just as effective as men in continue from where we left off. Moemela Kgosi. All we need to Kgosi Kgari needed clarification applying corporal punishment. I First Reading do is know the titles as they are on some issues, let me quote do appreciate the advice though in the Bogosi Act. This Bill has my presentation on part (b). I because there are instances CUSTOMARY a section which indicates how said that there is the need to where the female Court Bailiffs COURTS some fines will be increased; review the establishment and fail to confiscate attached goods (AMENDMENT) BILL, however, it does not indicate jurisdiction of the Customary especially if it is from a difficult 2012 (NO. 21 OF 2012) anything about the warrant Court Act in particular the first, male person. of Dikgosi. The Honourable second and third schedules. We (Resumed Debate) Minister should clarify whether cannot review the charges alone. I shall not venture into the We are still on the first stage there is any intention to increase It is in the plan to review the suggestion that the positions of the Bill and we are going warrants of Dikgosi in this Bill. powers of Dikgosi and it is with of Court President and the to continue with the debate Even from her presentation the Attorney Generals Chambers. Deputy Court President have looking at the general merits and yesterday, she did not mention Concerning other issues … not been well placed for now. anything about this issue with principles of this Bill. MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable I would like to address this regards to hearing cases. Minister could you please speak particular issue which has been KGOSI KGARI II: Thank you Lastly, I want to touch on the a little louder so that Dikgosi can passionately debated; Headmen Mr Chairman. Firstly, I would issue of Court Bailiffs. I support hear you. Can you go over what of Arbitration. The Honourable like to touch on the points the suggestion from yesterday you were saying? Members stated that the that were raised by the other that there should be a gender Headman of Arbitration position Members yesterday. One of the balance as they continue to be HONOURABLE should be clearly stated in the issues was the Bogosi structure employed. It appears they are TSHIRELETSO: Thank you Law. I just needed clarification and titles. I wanted to remind employing more women than Mr Chairman. It is correct that on that one because we have Dikgosi that some of the titles men. Thank you Mr Chairman. I should speak in an audible always known that Headmen of voice to show respect. Kgosi Arbitration are BoRalekgotla. are no longer used because the MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you was saying that the powers of We have always believed that Bogosi Act introduced new Kgosi Kgari. Before we proceed Dikgosi should be increased, when we speak of the Headmen titles. It is important that we with the debate, I would like to and I said, indeed that is true. in the lower courts they are familiarise ourselves with those give the Minister a chance to That issue is being attended to also covered. They do not have titles. If we continue to use those clarify a few points that were by Attorney Generals Chambers Dikgotla and they are just part titles it will bring confusion; brought up by the Members at the moment. The gender issue of the lower court to arbitrate titles like Tribal Authority and yesterday and touch on the ones relating Court Bailiffs is just whenever Kgosi assigns them a Subordinate Tribal Authority are raised by Kgosi Kgari as well. no longer in use. The titles which speculation. If women apply in case. I wanted to understand if are in use are Kgosi, Mothusa ASSISTANT MINISTER OF large numbers then that is bound Dikgosi are suggesting that they Kgosi and Moemela Kgosi. I LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND to happen. We do not employ should be elevated from their believe that even in this Bill it RURAL DEVELOPMENT looking at someone’s gender positions and given offices as will not be necessary to put old (HON TSHIRELETSO): or origin. Women carry out well? We have always felt that titles in brackets for example Thank you Mr Chairman as well their duties very well and they even if they have those offices 22 23 Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) First Reading (Resumed Debate) First Reading (Resumed Debate) that have been constructed Kgosi- Senior sub tribal authority Act then such can be addressed MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable by the Village Development and then we have Kgosana. I do during the review. Currently we Minister, is there anything that Committees (VDCs) they not understand whether Kgosana are looking at the Customary you wish to comment on? cannot really be referred to as refers to Headman or the Senior Courts Act that we have to Dikgosi, unlike Headmen of sub tribal authority. Are we debate. Secondly, I want to HONOURALBE Record. Even in the event that doing away with the position of remind the Members that those TSHIRELETSO: Thank you the Headman of Arbitration Headman such that the hierarchy who spoke yesterday have used Mr Chairman. The Headmen passes on, their children cannot will begin with the Senior sub their slot for the first reading and of Arbitration are assigned by succeed them unlike it the tribal authority? the chance that remains is for Dikgosi to assist the community. case of a Kgosi. Perhaps this those who did not debate. Please An individual might be chosen The procedure for hearing cases system differs in regions but let us bear that in mind. by virtue of having been in that is structured such that they begin in Mahalapye that is how it is. particular area or ward for a long with the Headman of Record, I thought I should elaborate so KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II time. There may be instances then Senior Tribal Authority that as the Honourable Members (BAROLONG): Thank you Mr whereby Kgosi feels that the (STA) and ultimately the Senior continue with the debate they Chairman. I will try to be brief. community has grown and he sub tribal authority (SSTA). suggest the title that they want Although I am not in any way may appoint someone to arbitrate This means that if anyone of for this position. Otherwise we dismissing the points raised by when conflicts arise. One of the them is removed from this will correct these things as we other Honourable Members, I elders in that ward may be chosen hierarchy, then there are going continue to deal with clause beg to differ with them on some even if they are not of the Bogosi to be problems. The SSTA is by clause. Kgosi Kgari also issues. When we consider the family. Perhaps Dikgosi know a going to be overwhelmed by indicated that the positions are proposed amendment section 11 different procedure but where I cases because in our region, clearly stipulated in Setswana sub sections 5(b), on the goods come from it is like that. In all Dikgosi are not only responsible in the Bogosi Act and that we that can be attached, you might the different wards of Mowana, for trying cases. They also should familiarise ourselves with discover that some people only Tshikinyega and Tlhomadithotse have to deal with the issues of them. I totally agree with him. have furniture to their name. we have those individuals who development and general issues Thank you. were chosen to be Headmen of in the village. That is where I KGOSI LEMPADI Arbitration. You will observe (OKAVANGO REGION): MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you needed clarification. Thank you. that I have not mentioned any I need clarification on the Honourable Minister. recognised Customary Courts in MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable Honourable Minister’s response my statement. I do not wish to KGOSI MALEMA Members even though we have before we continue. I heard her debate about it though because (BOBIRWA REGION): Thank to seek such clarifications we mentioning that Headmen of the Honourable Members you Mr Chairman, there are should not derail from the matter Arbitration are not succeeded by their children. I wanted to might be having a different some things I do not understand at hand which is the merits and explain that in our region it is understanding of this setup. here. The way Bogosi has been demerits of the Bill. I know that quite the opposite, Baemela Thank you Mr Chairman. structured at Gammangwato there might be some sections in Kgosi are not succeeded by their area is such that there is Kgosi- the Bogosi Act that we might be children but when a headman of KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II: Tribal authority, Mothusa Kgosi- having some qualms with and if arbitration passes on, the family Thank you Mr Chairman. I want Deputy tribal authority, Moemela Dikgosi wish for a review of the identifies his successor. to believe that in light of that 24 25 Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) First Reading (Resumed Debate) First Reading (Resumed Debate) explanation it does not prevent Customary Court of Appeal. The KGOSI MOSADI (BALETE): that we can assess its goodness a Headman of Arbitration’s child reason why I am saying this is Thank you Mr Chairman. The or badness for us. to take over from the incumbent. because one Member mentioned other Members have touched on I believe that if cases where I agree with the Honourable that the presiding officers at the most of the issues that I wanted to to skip a certain level and go Members that there should be Customary Court of Appeal have comment on. Although we are not straight to the Customary Court consultation with the community been trained on the interpretation at the stage where we do clause of Appeal, it would not be when suspending members of of the Law. Although I do not by clause, there is something that proper procedure. For example the court. I also want to touch on undermine their knowledge of I need clarification on. When it in my case, Kgosi Kgari would Appeals. I am aware that other the Law I do not believe that they comes to the issue of attaching be better placed to review cases Members are of the opinion know the Law any better than we goods, is there any provision in I have heard, before they are that cases from Customary do. the Bill to cover complainants escalated to the Customary Court Court should go straight to the where there are no goods to of Appeal. The current system Customary Court of Appeal Mr Chairman, currently there is a attach? On the Customary Court is serving us well because the in case there is dissatisfaction backlog of cases at the Customary of Appeal; I would like to state Bogosi structure is dealing with regarding the case. They felt that Court of Appeal. Referring cases that we are always sent back case accordingly. Mr Chairman, it would not be fair for a case to straight to the Customary Court and forth to hear cases that are the proposal would not work go from one Kgosi to another in of Appeal would worsen the outstanding at the Customary in our favour. We have been the same Kgotla. I beg to differ situation. We are always sent Court of Appeal. I would like complaining about a similar because legally when we talk out to different places to attend to know where the Customary issue, concerning the Local of a court we are referring to to the backlog of cases that the Court of Appeal gets the Police who left our Dikgotla. If the Presiding officer who would Customary Court of Appeal has authority to assign us this duty as Bills are brought to this House be attending to a particular not been able to hear. Referring Dikgosi. I am still apprehensive and we agree on a resolution that case. If for instance there is the cases to a higher court before about not including the position would not make our jobs easier, Kgosikgolo, Moemela Kgosi going to the Customary Court of Headman of Arbitration in the then it would not look right if we and Headman in one Kgotla, it of Appeal would really address Customary Courts Act because turn around and complain about is possible that a case that has this issue of outstanding cases. in a way they ease the work load. it in the long run. Mr Chairman, been heard by the Headman can Mr Chairman, I request that we Thank you Mr Chairman. I advocate for things to be left be heard by Moemela Kgosi in should leave things as they are. the way they have always been that Kgotla. That would mean In essence, a higher court refers MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, because the procedure was the case has been elevated to a to the presiding officer of a Kgosi Mosadi. working for us. Thank you Mr higher warrant than the officer higher court even if it is within KGOSI MONNAATHEBE Chairman. who initially heard the case. the same Kgotla. Mr Chairman, (THAMAGA REGION): Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Section 39 and Section 42 of Thank you Mr Chairman. I want the Customary Court Act state Kgosi Monnaathebe. MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI to touch on the issue of referring that if someone is not satisfied GABORONE): Thank you, cases from our courts to the KGOSI MMUALEFHE with the outcome of their case Kgosi Lotlamoreng. Is there Customary Court of Appeal. The (CHOBE REGION): Thank they can keep appealing to a anything else that the Honourable Government has done well by you Mr Chairman. In my higher court until they reach the Members wish to comment on? bringing this Bill before us so response to the Bill that has been 26 27 Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) First Reading (Resumed Debate) First Reading (Resumed Debate) brought to this House regarding are both governed by the Public to comment on the load of More members should be hired the amendment of Customary Service Act whilst Dikgosi cases that are referred to the to constitute that lower court. To Courts, I would like to express are governed by tradition. If Customary Court of Appeal. I site an example, in Molepolole my gratitude for Clause 2 which they review their cases, whose do not understand why that is there is only one Kgosana in our dealt away with Administrative tradition would they be using? the case. We always complain as Customary Court and therefore Officers. However, I think That is not proper because it now Dikgosi that powers have been if he is the only one who will be in section 41, we should re- appears like the Customary Court taken from us but if this happens, attending to all the cases before consider the nomenclature. We of Appeal and the Directors of will they be not taking away the they go to the higher Customary should have a Higher Kgotla Tribal Administration are senior little powers that we have left? I Court, then that might prove to instead of higher Customary to Dikgosikgolo whilst it is do not have a problem with the be problematic. Thank you Mr Court because normally we not the case. Dikgosikgolo and Bogosi structure and systems. Chairman. use the word Kgotla instead of Dikgosana can form a body that In my view the Customary KGOSI POTSOENG (NGAMI court. I have noticed though in can review cases. Currently we Court of Appeal does not serve this Bill that the word ‘Member’ have 57 Constituencies and where REGION): Thank you Mr any purpose to us. They should is frequently used in place of we have District Commissioners Chairman. Just like the other work with the Court Presidents Tribesmen or Boralekgotla and I and Dikgosi, all these people can Members I agree that cases am confused, which Members are review cases. That would reduce in towns whilst we do things should go through all the Bogosi we referring to? This term may the cases which are referred to the way we have always done. structures before they reach the give any person an opportunity the Customary Court of Appeal. I Thank you Mr Chairman. Customary Court of Appeal. to be chosen as a Member of do not understand the saying that KGOSI GAREBAKWENA I want clarity on whether the the Customary Court of Appeal those at the Customary Court (MOLEPOLOLE REGION): Court Presidents are overseen by whereas that individual does not Of Appeal know the Law better Thank you Mr Chairman. I Dikgosi or are independent? For know anything about the origins because we both use the same wanted to touch on Section 2 one to become a Court President and history of that particular legal documents. Mr Chairman, which deals with constitution they apply for that position and place. I think we should retain the Customary Court of Appeal of a Higher Customary Court therefore they are civil servants. the term “tribesman.” and the Court Presidents should and a Lower Customary Court. How can Dikgosi supervise not be part of the Department I feel that the Court President Even though this is a good them? I seek clarification on of Tribal Administration, they and the Customary Court of idea it is important to take into that point. Another point that Appeal have the potential to should rather fall under the consideration the different Magistrates courts because as I seek clarification on is with dilute the importance of the regions. Other regions are vast it is now, it is difficult to know regards to the Court Clerks that and they may have five Dikgosi Dikgosikgolo. If the Dikgosi who whether Dikgosi oversee them or we work with, they do not appear in the structure with the Kgosana come under the Dikgosikgolo in not. Thank you Mr Chairman. anywhere in the Customary the structure review cases tried being the lowest. This will mean Courts (Amendment) Bill. How by Dikgosikgolo then there is KGOSI NDZONGA that in big regions, where there do we accommodate them in this an anomaly. It would be better (TUTUME REGION): Thank are a lot of cases, we may have Bill? if the Court Presidents and the you Mr Chairman. Much has a backlog of cases in the Lower Customary Court of Appeal already been said by the other Customary Court which would Lastly, I would like to understand could work together because they Members but I just wanted be overseen by the Kgosana. what the Law says in instances 28 29 Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) First Reading (Resumed Debate) First Reading (Resumed Debate) where the Court Bailiff does Secondly, I believe that it should KGOSI MOREMI from tea Honourable Members. not find anything to attach. I ask be included because any person (BATAWANA): Thank you Before we adjourned Kgosi this because I have noticed that who knows their rights would Mr Chairman for giving me Moremi was still holding the this Bill is silent on the issue. refuse to be sent to a court that the opportunity to have a say floor and I should remind you What do you suggest we do is not included in the lawful on this Bill. In Clause 2, my all that we are still at the stage in those instances because the structure. It should therefore understanding is that in the main where we are still considering complainant would be waiting be part of the legal structure. Kgotla there is Kgosi, Mothusa the general merits and demerits for what is due to them. Thank The second issue has to do with Kgosi, and Moemela Kgosi yo of the Bill. you Mr Chairman. appeals. If I remember well Mr mogolwane and Moemela Kgosi. KGOSI MOREMI: Thank Chairman, our main concern here My suggestion is that Moemela you Mr Chairman. I wanted MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI was that it is a long process for Kgosi yo mogolwane should be to comment on clause 5 (ix) GABORONE): I believe that cases to move from the Headman the one overseeing the Higher which reads thus, ‘the Minister the Honourable Minister is of Record to Kgosikgolo. The Customary Court and then the may dismiss or suspend for any preparing the answers for the intention was to cut the process Lower Customary Court can be period he may deem fit.’ I wanted questions that the Honourable such that from the Headman of overseen by Moemela Kgosi and to say that when the Minister Members have been raising. This Record or even Moemela Kgosi, the Headman so that the Headman suspends Kgosi, he or she should would assist so that when we get it can then go to Kgosikgolo then cannot be overwhelmed by work. specify the date, month and year, to the second stage of the Bill the Customary Court of Appeal. I Section 5 (ix); before dismissal because it is the right of that everything will be clear. would be grateful if that could be or suspension of a Kgosi, can the Kgosi to know the duration of done because in some instances, Minister not be specific on... their suspension. The suspension KGOSI TELEKELO you will discover that Moemela (MOSHUPA REGION): Thank MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi period should also consider the Kgosi works with the Headman gravity of the offence committed you Mr Chairman. It might of Record in the same Kgotla and Moremi, I did not mean to appear like we are repeating interrupt you but it is time for us because at times the Minister they would both be aware of the may allow himself or herself the same thing but it is just to adjourn for tea. I should also case. Having the case go through to be influenced by personal remind the Honourable Members emphasis because the issue is Moemela Kgosi would be just feelings towards the wrongdoer. that in the meantime we should vital and needs to be addressed. delay the progress of the case. On Clause 21… Mr Chairman, I would like be thinking about how we are to emphasise the importance Mr Chairman, one other issue going to be debating each clause MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi is of including the Headman of concerning the review of cases in detail as we get to the second already dealing with clauses but Arbitration in this Bill. The has to do with the fact that the stage of the Bill. We shall meet we are still going to go to the procedure that is followed District Commissioner can here at 11 o’clock. second stage of the Bill where when installing the Headman of reverse the judgement made on a we are going to be discussing Arbitration is not different from case by Dikgosi. Where do they PROCEEDING SUSPENDED each clause. At this stage we are when a Kgosana or Moemela get the authority to do that? We FOR APPROXIMATELY 30 still looking at the general merits MINUTES Kgosi is installed. That alone believe that it would be better if and demerits of the Bill. tells me that they should not be that was done by a court. Thank MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI KGOSI MOREMI: Thank you left out of this Bill. you Mr Chairman. GABORONE): Welcome back Mr Chairman. My last point is 30 31 Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) First Reading (Resumed Debate) First Reading (Resumed Debate) that Customary Courts of Appeal elevated up to the Deputy Chief to assist another community, his child maintenance while they should be increased from two so then it would not be necessary or her community should duly are working can be imprisoned as to avoid backlog of cases. for the Kgosikgolo to hear it. be informed. Kgosi Moremi for failure to pay. However, if Initially a case would be heard had suggested that the sentence they not working they are just MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you by the Headman and then it should be clearly stipulated. I informed that once they find Kgosi Moremi. I will now hand would go to the Deputy Chief take it that the regulations will employment they should start over to the Minister to clarify a and eventually Kgosi. I believe outline sentences inline with the paying child maintenance. It was few points that were submitted that even as we read this Bill, offence committed. There should mentioned that Court Clerks are by the Honourable Members as we have noticed that the Lower be a reason why one is given a not featured in the Bill. Our Rules they were debating. Court and the Higher Court still certain suspension period to of Procedure state that Clerk exist. By saying that the case can avoid situations whereby people means a Clerk of Customary ASSISTANT MINISTER OF be sent straight to the Customary are suspended for indefinite Court appointed by the Minister. LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND Court of Appeal we meant that periods. Moemela Kgosi yo mogolwane is RURAL DEVELOPMENT we wanted to reduce the stages a no longer there in the Law, is it (HON TSHIRELETSO): case goes through. Honourable Members suggested not so? Thank you Mr Chairman. When several ideas during tea break on The other issue was consultation I introduced the Bill I requested how to deal with circumstances HONOURABLE MEMBER: with the community when Kgosi that the Honourable Members whereby the offender does The post is not there in the is suspended. I agree with that should propose ways through not have any goods to be Bogosi Act. and I believe consultation has which we can improve this Bill. attached. Others suggested been done all along even though The Chairman has also been civil imprisonment, poverty HONOURABLE it was not in writing. It was only emphasising that in the second eradication projects or doing TSHIRELETSO: We did on one occasion where Kgosi was reading we can include those some chores for the complainant. not find the position covered suspended without consultation which have been left out. We once discussed this issue anywhere in the Bogosi with the community. Normally Kgosi Moremi suggested that when the Customary Courts Act. Kgosi asked where the after a thorough assessment and the Customary Courts of Appeal Amendment Bill was brought to Customary Court of Appeal gets the only choice is to suspend should be increased in number this House for the first time and the authority to appoint Dikgosi a particular Kgosi, then the and the Law clearly stipulates I remember the agreement being to preside over cases where community is consulted. Since that when the Minister deems it that the wrongdoer should pay the accused does not wish for we are going to get to a stage necessary, he should be free to do in kind. I also believe that in the a particular Presiding officer where we debate each Clause so. They can even be increased second stage when we deal with to handle their case. I wanted I believe that the Honourable to five depending on the need. the specific clause we shall come to highlight that they are not Members will come up with a Another issue of concern is up with a resolution on how the appointing an individual but a resolution on how it can be part of that of the Bogosi hierarchy. issue can be resolved. Kgotla so that the accused does We have not changed anything the Bill. It is the same as transfers; not feel oppressed in any way. or tempered with any set up. a Kgosi cannot be transferred This issue of failing to pay fines Section 37, Sub section 4 outlines What we are simply saying is without any consultation with is covered by the law even at the the procedure for handling a that in cases where a matter was the community. If there is any High Court and the Magistrates case. Ultimately it explains handled by a Headman and then assignment given to Kgosi like Court. Men who fail to pay that the Customary Court of 32 33 Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) First Reading (Resumed Debate) First Reading (Resumed Debate)

Appeal can step in to appoint a their case. Clarification was Arbitration because the structure something regarding the issue certain Kgotla, not the Kgosi, sought on the term “Member” of Bogosi would be messed up. of Headmen of Arbitration. to hear the case. That is how it used in this Bill. This word refers We are going to find ourselves Headmen of Arbitration used is but since we are still going to to Kgosi in the Customary Court in situations where there is no to have Dikgotla and they were debate each clause in the second Act. The Honourable Members one who can be assigned to do permanent employees. I believe reading, we shall then come up mentioned that the word could be certain duties. I want to propose that some of them are Members of this House. As time went with a resolution on how it can used to refer to just about anyone, to the Honourable Members on the system changed and be phrased. however it refers to Kgosi as I that we should agree that the bo-Ralekgotla started earning have already mentioned. We will Headmen of Arbitration are not an allowance. That is what I MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi wait for your resolution to hear Dikgosi but rather they came wanted to clarify. Thank you Mr Mosadi. how you want it to be phrased. in because of a special setup. Chairman. Dikgosi felt that the work was KGOSI MOSADI: I asked too much for them and they HONOURABLE about this because in December I am not sure if there is anything that I left out. I have tried to advocated that the people they TSHIRELETSO: That is the I was appointed to hear a case mistake that we are trying to answer most of the issues raised normally sent on assignments in Thamaga. The complainant correct. The people that we are in their Dikgotla should be informed me that he had referred and as we debate clause by talking about did not start off given some form of incentive. his case to the Customary Court clause, Members will submit as Dikgosi. They started off as It was never a big position as of Appeal and he was surprised suggestions. Members should messengers for Dikgosi and we are making it appear today. that I was the one sent to preside also suggest how issue of as per requests from Dikgosi This situation is just like that of over it. I had to go back to the Headmen of Arbitration should at that time, the Government land overseers. There have been agreed to pay them salaries. Court of Appeal to find out what be addressed. If an individual requests to compensate them As the numbers of Headmen of the situation was. That is why I does not want a Headman of for the job that they are doing. Arbitration in each village grew asked this question because I was Arbitration to preside over his Honourable Members should to the point where it surpassed wondering why they send us to case, then the case can be heard by a Headman of Record. Family assess this issue and establish if that of Dikgosi, the Government preside over cases that have been then decided to pay them desputes which are reported to our culture is not dying because forwarded to them. Thank you allowances instead. Whether an it is like every individual who Mr Chairman. the Kgotla are normally handled individual was paid a salary or by Headmen of Arbitration, is assigned something to do by an allowance the fact is that they HONOURABLE who at times refer them back Kgosi has to be paid. We are now were not Dikgosi. There are new beginning to get worried because TSHIRELETSO: Like I to the uncles and aunts. In emerging villages like Setsile the Honourable Members in my Constituency where the explained before, Section 37 some instances, Headmen of are now requesting for …. community nominated someone gives them the authority to assign Arbitration choose to accelerate (Interruption)... Thank you Mr to arbitrate as they felt that he…. presiding officers to start hearing cases to Headman of Record Chairman. the case afresh. However, as especially where they feel the HONOURABLE MEMBER: I seek clarification Mr Chairman. Kgosi Seboko stated, other issue might be beyond their KGOSI TELEKELO: Thank people might insist that they want warrant. This is why I was saying you Mr Chairman. I understand HONOURABLE somebody from the Customary that we could not possibly remove what the Minister has been TSHIRELETSO: I shall leave Court of Appeal to preside over the post of the Headman of saying but I wanted to clarify it for you to discuss it further. 34 35 Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) First Reading (Resumed Debate) First Reading (Resumed Debate)

KGOSI BOIDITSWE: I feel of Bogosi. This issue is not was used collectively to refer to Act stipulates that furniture, that this issue will confuse us covered in the Customary Courts Kgosi, mothusa Kgosi, moemela food and equipment should not but we are compelled to seek Bill, it falls under Bogosi Act. It Kgosi, Kgosana, Court President be attached but the High Court clarity because of the Minister’s would be appropriate to propose and Deputy Court President to Act specifies the limit of the cost response. We should focus on the those amendments at the time of avoid the monotony of a long of the furniture to be attached. Bill. reviewing the Bogosi Act. We sentence having to be repeated in The same applies to equipment. The two issues which are cannot incorporate the amended the Act and eventually losing the Another difference between this derailing us are on arbitration. hierarchy in this particular Bill, meaning along the way. On the Act and other Acts is that it clearly Like Kgosi Telekelo said, it has Mr Chairman. In this particular issue of suspension and dismissal states that no tools of trade of a long been there. My father was Bill; Kgosi, mothusa Kgosi, of a Member, the amendment person used for farming should an arbitrator, they were paid a Kgosana, Court President and outlines the procedure for be attached, this can be looked salary and they were permanent Deputy Court President have suspension or dismissal of into as well and maybe we could and pensionable. If then it comes been listed in order to try and Kgosi. However, when we look consider attaching those tools a point where they are too many explain the officers who preside at the Bogosi Act, suspension and probably suggest that the Act they should just be employed as over higher and lower Customary or dismissal of Kgosi has been be aligned to the High Court Act. Soldiers and police officers who Courts. The list was just to show explained in detail, it includes Thank you. are hired in large numbers. Mr those who preside over certain consultation. If the Ministry courts. If Members want to could follow the guidelines Chairman, even though I am a MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you amend the structure of Bogosi, it stipulated in Bogosi Act, then it Headmen of Record, I still have PC. I believe that members that mentality of Headmen of is upon the Minister to consider would strengthen the provision in the Customary Court Act and got the explanation as a way Arbitration; I still believe that the amending the hierarchy in the maybe address the concerns of leading the debate. Let me Minister should not be involved Bogosi Act as it is the law which raised about consultation. remind Members that we still in this issue of arbitration. Thank governs Bogosi in Botswana. We have two stages of this Bill you Mr Chairman. cannot use terms which are not There is another issue concerning where we are going to debate in Bogosi Act unless we amend attachment of property. The clause by clause and eventually MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you the Act itself to accommodate the Minister stated that a person may come up with a Resolution. Kgosi Boiditswe. Honourable changes. be get a fined in monetary terms I believe that members have Minister please does not become but if that person fails to pay the understood the PC and if you involved in the arbitration issues. Moving on to the one on the fine then there is a provision in want to use the examples she Let me request the Parliamentary use of the word, ‘Member’. Rule 30 which specifies how to cited in your debates, please feel Counsel to clarify some of the The Minister has explained get the money they have been free to do so. I believe we have aspects to this Bill. that a member in this case is a fined. The problem is that the done justice to the first reading presiding officer at Kgotla level. charges are too minimal and of the Bill where we looked at PARLIAMENTARY Tribesman means a member maybe they should be revised the merits and principles. I trust COUNSEL (MS of a particular tribe; let us not considering the offences that as we move to the next level MOROLONG): Thank you Mr confuse the use of the term registered at Customary Court of the Bill to debate on each Chairman. The first issue that member and tribesman because so that the provision suits the and every clause, we will do so cropped up is that of the hierarchy they are different. A member current set up. Customary Courts diligently and that is where we 36 37 Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Second Reading Second Reading should present our concerns. such as Establishment and taken the Chairperson shall move which has been numbered B.186. We have completed the First Jurisdiction of Customary Courts that the Bill be read a second This particular section contains Reading of this Bill Honourable Order as well as Authority to time and then call the number an arrangement of Sections from Members. We shall move on to Prosecute, these are not Acts of each Clause or any groups of 1 to 28, if there is no comment debate clause by clause. but they are Regulations which Clauses in succession. On each then we move on to the next item have been established under Clause or group of Clauses being where it is written, A Bill entitled; KGOSI KAHIKO III: Mr this Customary Courts Act. Yes, so called, a debate may arise, on An Act to amend the Customary Chairman, I agree that we pass they should have been part of the the question, covering the details Courts Act. This is just a list of on to the next level but I am Act so that they are dealt with of the Clause or Clauses called. Sections. I will now move on to 1. concerned by the fact that we are as well. Maybe the omission Any schedules to a Bill shall be Short title and 2. Amendment of amending the Customary Courts was due to shortage of office dealt with in the same manner section 2 of Cap.04:05. (2); this Act yet we are leaving other personnel or time constraint at as clauses. At the conclusion of is the Section which addresses Acts behind. We are told those the time when the Bill was being such debate no question shall the interpretation in the old Bill; regulations are at the Attorney drafted. Nonetheless, this does be put and the question on the General’s Chambers but if you motion shall be deemed to have it is a definition of the terms used not mean that they cannot be in this Bill. amend a law, they have to be done now. The law can still pass been agreed to.” In the Second looked into as well so that we Reading of this Bill, we shall without amending them though it KGOSI MOSADI (BALETE): can ascertain if they are in line would not make our job easy but consider every clause and make with the current revision to Act. suggestion on how we want the Thank you Mr Chairman. The they can be done at a later stage. Bill to appear. At the end of the definitions of the administration We have Acts such as Customary Thank you. Court Powers to Prosecute, debate we shall then move on to officer, court bailiff, and Establishment and jurisdiction MR CHAIRMAN: Thank the last stage of the Bill. Customary Court are self- of Customary Court Order which you PC. In other words we can explanatory. There is a section I will keep referring to the old Bill also need to be upgraded but they continue debating the Act as it is. which lists Kgosi, Mothusa as we move along debating this Kgosi, and Moemela Kgosi are not part of the Bill now. How Given that explanation, we have new one so that we understand are they going to be incorporated completed the First Reading of as presiding officers for the the changes. The first page of higher Customary Court and in the new law? That is my the Bill and therefore we move the Bill is the Memorandum, concern Mr Chairman. on to the Second Reading of the lower Customary Court being Customary Courts Amendment presided over by Kgosana, Bill. Bill, 2012, Published on the 21st MR CHAIRMAN: Could the Court President or Deputy Court CUSTOMARY COURTS September 2012. This is just a President. I think we should PC briefly explain the procedure (AMENDMENT) BILL, Memorandum to show the cause concerning schedules and why perhaps include Moemela Kgosi 2012 (NO. 21 OF 2012) for the review of the Bill. There under the officers who preside they do not form part of the Second Reading is nothing that Members would amendment of this Bill. over Lower Customary Court. I MR CHAIRMAN: We move want to comment on since it has do not know if I will be moving to PARLIAMENTARY on to the Second Reading of the been covered in the presentation the resolution stage but I believe COUNSEL: Thank you Mr Bill. Section 39 (5) of our Rules made by the Minister yesterday. that the Lower Customary Court Chairman. Kgosi Kahiko of Procedure states that, “when We now move on to the second officers should include Moemela mentioned that there are Acts the Second Reading of a Bill is page, Arrangement of Sections Kgosi due some circumstances in 38 39 Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Second Reading Second Reading our regions. Take my region for our regions are different. Kgosi structures be independednt of category. We would not deny example; , Mogobane and Mosadi Seboko advocates for each other. This merging of Members the benefit if they were Taung villages have Headman of Kgosi and mothusa Kgosi to structures is going to confuse us to reckon that Court Presidents Record as well as Moemela Kgosi preside over higher customary even more. We have areas like be placed at higher court and who is referred to as Kgosi in this court, it would then mean that at for example, they have Deputy Court President be at case. I thought that Kgosana is places like Serowe for example, Court Presidents but we do not lower court. We wish for them to Headman of Arbitration as one the structure remains the same. know how they were appointed fit in this structure because they of the Members highlighted. In Boteti there is a population of as the processes are too different. are dealing with the welfare of The higher Customary Court close to 60 000 within that district, I therefore propose that the Court our people in townships. Thank should be presided over by they have the senior Kgosi and President and Deputy Court you Mr Chairman. Kgosi and Mothusa Kgosi to Moemela Kgosi. The structure President be removed from KGOSI KAHIKO III allow for Kgosana/ Headman is fine because if Kgosana and this structure. Thank you Mr (GHANZI WEST REGION): of Arbitration and Moemela moemela Kgosi preside over the Chairman. Kgosi to hear the cases at the Lower Customary Court then Thank you Mr Chairman, I Lower Customary Court level moemela Kgosi yo Mogolwane MR CHAIRMAN: I don’t know would like to comment on the before they are referred to the will preside over other cases, if the Minister wants to clarify issue of Court Presidents. They higher Customary Court; or to something which will reduce something. form part of customary law the Customary Court of Appeal. the backlog of cases. I believe and there is no how we can ASSISTANT MINISTER OF Mr Chairman, we discussed this this has been the case and it has exclude them in the structure. LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND matter at length. The backlog of worked for us. The law should It is obvious that they form part RURAL DEVELOPMENT cases is due to cases being heard be open because districts differ, of the Customary Court within (HON TSHIRELETSO): Thank by Kgosana and then being some have a huge population. townships. In every township, you Mr Chairman. I have been passed on to Moemela Kgosi customary issues are being Another issue is the inclusion prompted by Kgosi Machilidza and to Mothusa Kgosi. Other handled; we have marriages and of Court Presidents and Deputy to make this clarification. Court members have reservations cases within the townships. My Court President into this Presidents form part of Tribal about Court President and worry is the way they have been structure. Mr Chairman, we Administration as they are put in the structure in terms of Deputy Court President but it are talking about Bogosi and accorded the same recognition as the powers that the Government would then mean that the cases the structures within Bogosi Dikgosi because they deal with has given them as well as their will go straight to the Court of are different. Communities are the community at township level. remuneration. Appeal. I think that is how far we always involved in installations We therefore cannot say that can go on that one. Thank you or nominations of their Dikgosi. they should not form part of the KGOSI MACHILIDZA: Mr Chairman. Court Presidents and Deputy structure because they perform On a point of clarification Mr Court Presidents however customary duties. Honourable Chairman. Kgosi Kahiko III is KGOSI MACHILIDZA are just appointed to head a Members have highlighted that talking of dismissing them, I (BOTETI REGION): Thank particular township. Court since Court Presidents are on did not say that they should be you Mr Chairman. I would like Presidents and Dikgosi should the same line with moemela dismissed but I requested that to comment on what Kgosi have separate structures within Kgosi, they should form part there should be a structure which Mosadi Seboko said. As it is, Tribal Administration. Let the of the higher Customary Court is peculiar to their position. Our 40 41 Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Second Reading Second Reading appointments are different and Kgosi should preside over a KGOSI KAHIKO III: Moving both parties. We should not dwell independent. That is what I said lower Customary Court; it will along Mr Chairman. Kgosi on culture; we should change to but if it comes out that I said not be possible. Moemela Kgosi Masunga has said the truth; processes which will work for us that they should be dismissed, is on the same category with they are powerless Dikgosi as this is the main reason for the they will not be happy with me Dikgosi in some regions such as unlike those Dikgosi who fall amendment of this Act. Let me within that higher Customary at all. The structures should be Gantsi, therefore if it is like that stop this far Mr Chairman, I have Court at the present moment. independent of each other as they those regions will be degraded. It a lot more to say in the other It is surprising that Dikgosi would then mean that in Gantsi are different and this is a fact. hold different warrants, those Sections. Thank you. we would not have any higher Thank you Mr Chairman. in Gantsi carry the P5 warrant MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you Customary Court if we adopt that while the ones in Gamalete carry Kgosi Kahiko III. Let me remind KGOSI KAHIKO III: Thank proposal. Other regions have the P200 warrant. These two cannot Members that in section 2 here, you Mr Chairman. Moving same setup. Therefore I … be compared and therefore this only definitions of concepts right along. I still maintain that should be rectified. KGOSI MASUNGA: Point are covered together with their there is no how we can exclude In conclusion, I would like of clarification. Thank you Mr differences therefore we should Court Presidents in our structure, to address the one regarding Chairman. The law is very clear, not dwell much on it. even if we could come up with appeals. There is no backlog where there is no moemela Kgosi As we debate Honourable a different structure still, we are of cases at Customary Court of in the structure, there is Kgosi. Members, let us not forget to going to fall within the same appeal, in my region. Our appeals hierarchy as we are all under That is how the structure is. We note what we want to include in go straight to the Customary the Customary Court umbrella. find baemela Kgosi in some our resolution. Court of appeal and there are I did not insinuate that anyone regions like the one led by Kgosi KGOSI BOIDITSWE no problems. The backlog that should be dismissed and maybe Seboko for example. We perform (SEROWE REGION): Thank people are referring to is caused the Honourable Member did not full functions of Bogosi. We you Mr Chairman. I would like to understand me. My argument have Headmen of Records even by those who do not want their address the issue of court bailiffs, is that currently where they are though we do not have Chief cases to be heard by Kgosi in that as well as that of Kgosi and in the structure; it puts us at a representatives and other levels. area. That is a totally different moemela Kgosi. Due to various disadvantage. All we can do is to I would therefore like to advise matter. When an offender does reasons we have different set ups revisit the structure and amend it. Kgosi Kahiko III that what Kgosi not want their case to be heard in our regions Mr Chairman. If Some of the Members feel that Mosadi Seboko was saying was by a particular Kgosi, having there is anything that could be not directed to districts. In these some cases should go straight to provided reasons henceforth then done to amend then it should be 4 districts still there are Dikgosi Customary Court of appeal while the law provides for that case to done. others hold a different view. A who perform full functions of be halted forthwith. We have to person who presides over a case Bogosi, as by law established. I Moving along, where the Lower refer the matter to the Customary at lower Customary Court level will go that far Mr Chairman. Customary Court means a court should not preside over the same Court of appeal as stipulated in that is presided over by Kgosana; case when it is at the Customary MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, section 37. The appeal court then Members have shown concern Court of appeal. Let me address Kgosi Masunga. I believe that appoints a different presiding that Kgosana here refers to the one suggesting that Moemela you have clarified. officer for fairness and justice to Headman of Record only, not 42 43 Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Second Reading Second Reading Headman of Arbitration. Dikgosi The Honourable Minister are issues which we are debating the Deputy Court President can are custodians of culture and suggested that we come up yet they do not fall under the remain at the lower Customary they have every right to table with possible solutions as we Customary Courts (amendment) Court so that it becomes easy a concern when they feel their debate. I therefore request Kgosi Act, but rather they fall under for cases to be heard by the culture and norms are being Boiditswe to suggest a name that Bogosi Act. As we go along you deputy at lower Court level and changed. Arbitration dates from could be used to address them. might as well consider reviewing then proceed to a higher Court way back .Cases begin at the the Bogosi Act. For now let us as presided over by the Court KGOSI BOIDITSWE: I Headman of Arbitration level and focus on the Bill before us. I President and then after that move through other level until would suggest that they should am aware that there are gaps be addressed as ‘town court proceed to the Customary Court they reach the Court of appeal. within Bogosi Act that need to be of appeal. I feel that it is not right for this officers’. addressed but whatever we say Bill to leave out Headmen of here in line with Bogosi Act will HONOURABLE MEMBER: Regions differ like Kgosi Arbitration as they too play a vital not change anything unless we TCO. Mosadi Seboko said. I will role in the arbitration process of review the Bogosi Act. cite Gammangwato region as communities. We should not just KGOSI BOIDITSWE: What? Let me read something and we an example. It has seven sub go with the current trends leaving TCO? Right. They would move on, the existing Act states districts, if moemela Kgosi our culture behind. love that. Let me thank Kgosi that, “the provision of this Act presides over lower court then Machilidza for suggesting that only motshwarelela Bogosi I still believe that if a township shall not extend to informal I should come up with a name. and mothusa Kgosi will preside is declared within a region, the proceedings of an arbitral nature In conclusion, the 30 day appeal over the higher court. It would Kgosi in that region should be the before a body not established or period. After the judgement is then mean that they are going one responsible for appointing a recognised as a Customary Court, delivered, Kgosi gives the parties to take all appeal cases within Court President for that township. constituted under a Customary a 30 day period to appeal their the region and the workload will If Dikgosi cannot appoint Court Court where such body does not case if they are not satisfied with be overwhelming for them. If Presidents in their regions then support to exercise any power to the judgement. This confuses me moemela Kgosi is paired with I am afraid I would not agree enforce its decisions or compel because the parties in that case… attendance before it’. These will the two then they will assist each that those Court Presidents be other. The Bogosi Act mentions referred to as Dikgosi. A different MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi be covered when we review the Bogosi Act. moemela Kgosi only, but we are term should be used to address Boiditswe, I think we are aware that the same term covers them because referring to them deviating from the Section at KGOSI TSHIPE moemela Kgosi yo mogolwane, as Dikgosi creates confusion. hand. You will debate that one as (MAHALAPYE REGION): even though it does not specify. They should not be referred to as we go along with the Sections. Thank you Mr Chairman. I am of Mr Chairman, we should not Court Presidents as well because the view that the Kgosi, mothusa forget the warrants which there is only one President of the KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Thank Kgosi and moemela Kgosi should govern Dikgosi. Take Mahalapye Republic. I will address the one you Mr Chairman. remain where they are and maybe kgotla for example; there is a on appeals as I conclude. MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you add Court President as one of Headman of Record, moemela KGOSI MACHILIDZA: Kgosi Boiditswe. Honourable the officers who preside over Kgosi and moemela Kgosi yo Clarification. Mr Chairman. Members let us note that there higher Customary Court. Then mogolwane. Like I have said

44 45 Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Second Reading Second Reading earlier on, moemela Kgosi and concern has been addressed. My KGOSI KAHIKO III: I recommend that we correct that moemela Kgosi yo mogolwane only concern in this Section is understand that you were aspect and be gender neutral. fall within the higher court level. that, as court bailiffs have been considering other Acts and that is Thank you Mr Chairman. The warrants of those at higher given duties to serve and execute why I was referring to the bye- court permit them to hear cases summons, subpoena, warrant or law. Are we not going to come MR CHAIRMAN: Maybe the even when they have not been other document issued by the back to try and empower them Minister can clarify clause 6(a) heard at a lower court. Another Customary Court or Customary in the long run as we did with as it states that, “the Director thing that I think constituted to Court of Appeal; have they been the bye-law officers? Currently shall appoint in accordance with Baemela Kgosi being included given the powers to arrest? If police officers have been the laws governing the public at higher court is the workload. they have not been appointed to assigned to hoist the flag among service…”, whether DPSM Gammangwato as an example; do so, are we not going to delay other things but in other regions appoints directly or they do so has many Headmen of Record the whole process? We were that is not the case. following the recommendation because it covers many villages. recently saying that bye-law HONOURABLE from the Director of Tribal Mahalapye Region has 30 officers should be issued with TSHIRELETSO: Thank you Administration. villages at lower court level and powers to carry warrant of arrest, Mr Chairman. I have clarified HONOURABLE if the cases are presided over by are we not going to come back to as to why we did that; therefore Dikgosi at higher court then it this House to address the same TSHIRELETSO: Thank you Kgosi may submit his proposal. would create a backlog of cases issue with court bailiffs? Mr Chairman. Clause 6 (a) We were looking at the fact that as there are only 15 of them at says that, “the Director of ASSISTANT MINISTER OF they perform the same duties as Tribal Administration shall that rank. I think that is what LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND sheriffs but I guess Kgosi did appoint in accordance with led to that decision on whom to RURAL DEVELOPMENT include at higher and lower court (HON TSHIRELETSO): Mr not understand the clarification the laws governing the Public level during consultation of this Chairman, These court bailiffs I made. Service…” The Ministry of Bill. Thank you Mr Chairman. Local Government and Rural are our sheriffs and as we all KGOSI POTSOENG (NGAMI know, sheriffs cannot execute Development does all the MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you REGION): Thank you Mr or serve a summons/ subpoena necessary steps to appoint very much Kgosi Tshipe. Let us Chairman. I would like to suggest if they meet resistance. When council secretaries and other move on and as we do, let me that the word to “appoint” be a person has to be arrested, a staff but they all fall under the remind you that we should note replaced with “recommend” police officer is robed in to assist. DPSM. The Director of Tribal those ideas somewhere as we are because as civil servants, court Like we said, they can serve and Administration has delegated still heading to the Resolution bailiffs are appointed by the execute subpoena if the person powers to appoint officers. On stage. I want the resolution is not resistant. Just like the Directorate of Public Service to reflect what we debated in the gender neutral part, I think magistrates court, the police Management (DPSM). The this House because we took officers are called in to assist if that that is an anomaly which time looking at the merits and Director can only make a a matter is beyond the sheriff’s will be addressed so that it principles of this Bill. recommendation to DPSM for warrant. Therefore, they do not appointment into the office. The becomes clear that the woman KGOSI KAHIKO III execute the warrant of arrest second issue is that this Bill only is recognised as well. It must (GANTSI WEST REGION): considering other supporting refers to the “he” I do not know be a typing error and it will be Section (3) is ok because my Acts. if “she” has been excluded. I rectified. Thank you. 46 47 Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Second Reading Second Reading KGOSI LEMPADI ASSISTANT MINISTER OF appears like there is no harmony already debated Clause 3 of this (OKAVANGO REGION): LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND between the Department and Bill therefore I would like to Thank you Mr Chairman. Since RURAL DEVELOPMENT the court bailiffs as their job request that we move on to Clause Court bailiffs have taken over the (HON TSHIRELETSO): Flags description is not clear. As 4- Establishment and recognition duties of Local Police officers, are hoisted by those who have Dikgosi, we work with them of Customary Courts. hoisting of flags should form part been appointed by the law to but at the same time we do not KGOSI MACHILIDZA: of their job description. Police do so. Even though they will be know what they should be doing. Pardon me Kgosi. You mentioned are reluctant to do this after the assigned some duties this one I believe that what is being that we have completed Clause employment of court bailiffs. is only done by those who have presented before us will address 3. I wanted to know whether Thank you Mr Chairman. been appointed to do so. That is the shortcomings that have been we addressed the one which why we post Special Constables there. stipulates that “court bailiffs will MR CHAIRMAN: I take it to Dikgotla, their duty is to hoist carry out any other lawful duty that Honourable Members read those flags, Mr Chairman. In most cases we do not consider as may be assigned to him by the through the Sections even as the needs assessment for Member?” I had suggested that they make comments, part C KGOSI MACHILIDZA: departments and our plans fail we replace the word ‘member’ (iv) states that, ‘court bailifs Thank you Mr Chairman. We at implementation stage. We with ‘Member of Kgotla.’ I do will carry out any other lawful have covered most aspects of are then compelled to change not know if we addressed that. duty as may be assigned to him (c) but I think where it says, our systems at an expense to MR CHAIRMAN: I thought or her by a Member.’ Let us read ‘…to carry out lawful duties as the Government. Some of these we debated that part Honourable the whole Section as we debate. may be assigned to him or her things Mr Chairman, including Members and I got different That was just some advice; I am by a Member’, we should say, Bogosi Act should have been views from Members on this not against what Kgosi Lempadi ‘Member of that Kgotla’ because amended together with this Bill Clause. I got what you said was saying. when we say Member, we leave because that would save the Kgosi about a Member but the it open and a Member can be Government a lot of money. That KGOSI BOIDITSWE: On Parliamentary counsel explained anyone else. was my comment Mr Chairman a point of clarification. I once and I trust that from here we ‘Member’ as we requested her heard that for an officer to hoist a KGOSI MASUNGA: Thank will see an improvement in the to. If there is something which flag they should be in full official you Mr Chairman. I believe that way court bailiffs work. Let me we feel should be included in the uniform, I do not know how true we are still debating section 3. request the Minister to involve us Clause, we will propose at the next time the needs assessment this is. If it is indeed true, does it The needs assessment which Resolution stage. That is how I is conducted. Thank you Mr mean that the court bailiffs will was done at the time when understand it Members. That is have to borrow the uniform used Chairman. court bailiffs were hired, do why I said we have completed by police officers for them to Clause 3, noting the concerns hoist the flag? I need clarification they meet the current needs of PROCEEDINGS raised by Honourable Members. on that point. Thank you Mr the Department, looking at their SUSPENDED FOR LUNCH Chairman. job profiles in section 3? They Clause 4 do serve summons but I want to MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable know if the Department made a GABORONE): Good afternoon MR CHAIRMAN: I believe that Minister, is there any comment thorough assessment considering Honourable Members and the Members are reading this Clause on what Kgosi Boiditswe said? the gap left by police officers? It Honourable Minister. We had alongside the existing Act. 48 49 Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Second Reading Second Reading KGOSI MOETI II: Thank ASSISTANT MINISTER OF is that that submission is the affiliation. My suggestion is that you Mr Chairman. I want to LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND overall decision of that particular all tribes should make their own understand this part which RURAL DEVELOPMENT Kgosi who consulted with the decisions and submit directly to says, ‘every Kgosi may submit (HON TSHIRELETSO): Mr community of that area. Kgosi the Minister in order to avoid for the consideration of the Chairman, Kgosi Moeti should submits it to the Minister for any possible delays. I believe Minister, recommendations for understand that this part says, recognition of that particular that every tribe has its own the recognition, establishment, ‘to recognise and recommend Customary Court to establish, Kgosi. That is my submission; abolishing or variation of the for establishment or abolishment abolish and establish the it applies to either establishment jurisdiction of the Customary of the jurisdiction of Customary jurisdiction. of Customary Court or Bogosi. Courts within his area’. Court within his area.’ The Thank you. According to my understanding overall decision lies with the KGOSI KAHIKO III: Point of the arrangement of Clauses, it Minister after consulting with of clarity Mr Chairman. KGOSI LOTLAMORENG should be clear who has the final the Kgosi in that area. Like The Honourable Member is II (BAROLONG): Thank you word among the Dikgosi listed in Kgosi is saying, this whole confusing two issues. We are Mr Chairman. I understand Clause 2. I believe that this Kgosi process includes consultation talking about establishment what Kgosi Moeti is saying but means Kgosikgolo. If I may with the community but I do of Customary Court; it is we have tribal territories which cite my region as an example, not understand if we should put recommended and it ends there. have overseers. If I was to cite Moemela Kgosikgolo is the one that in writing. It is a given that The recognition of Kgosi is as an example, we who will have the final word on the community is involved in another thing. This Clause is only have different tribes within recognition of Kgotla. We have the entire process. Kgosi cannot talking about recognising and Tlokweng; be it Basarwa, Balete, one Kgosikgolo but we are from take a decision alone, without establishing a Customary Court Bambukushu, Barolong but different tribes. I wanted us to consulting the community. I do as recommended by Kgosi in that it would be a challenge if all look into this matter and suggest not know if this has not been particular area. The Minister will these tribes want their Dikgotla that different tribes should have presented well but the Clause consider the recommendation and to be recognised in Tlokweng. then consult with the community There is a leader who oversees the right to state their seniority states that for consideration by thereafter to establish the Kgosi Tlokweng. I take it that despite and have the final say on who to the Minister, the Minister is the one who takes the overall in that area. Kgosi Moeti, please tribal affiliations, the fact is that appoint Mr Chairman. Currently decision and if there is anything do not mix up these two aspects, there is one leader at Tlokweng, they are involved but they do not that the community feels has thank you Mr Chairman. who leads the entire community. have the final say, it still remains been left out then they can take A leader in Tlokweng can still KGOSI MOETI II: Thank you with Kgosi. It is important to it up with the Minister, thank you lead the other tribes in that area. Kgosi Kahiko. My understanding have the community involved in Mr Chairman. is that upon the establishment KGOSI MASUNGA: Thank the decisions taken by Magosi KGOSI MOETI II: Thank you of that particular Customary you Mr Chairman. I understand because most of the time they Mr Chairman. I think I have Court, there has to be a Kgosi what Kgosi Lotlamoreng is did not know other tribes’ history read the Clause very well as it to preside over that Customary saying but the example he cited and at times there is no sense states that, ‘every Kgosi may Court because it cannot run is not a good one because tribal of urgency when dealing with submit for the consideration of itself. Kgosi is appointed through territories differ. In Tlokweng, issues for other tribes. the Minister’. What I understand election or the seniority in Tribal people come as individuals and 50 51 Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Second Reading Second Reading reside there and automatically in this Bill. Our Parliamentary established. Even if it does not example, Kgosi Kgamane could they cannot use their system Counsel said that Bogosi Act specifically outline those areas recommend the establishment of because already they know that covers the norms and culture but procedurally… Setsile ward in Mmaphashalala the direct link in Tlokweng of a particular tribe but I am village after consultation. This is Kgosi and he runs all the surprised they are not covered ASSISTANT MINISTER OF is not a new law, it has always proceedings of the village. In in this Bill. They should be part LOCAL GOVERNMENT been like this, we were just Central, there are different tribes of the Bill. This part should AND RUAL DEVELOPMENT replacing ‘Chief’ with ‘Kgosi’. who have kept their own different read, ‘every Kgosi may submit (HON TSHIRELETSO): Mr Let us read the whole Clause cultures, identity and everything to the recommendation of the Chairman, I am not creating and we will realise that it says but they have one Kgosikgolo. Minister in accordance with the a dialogue with Members but by order published and gazzeted, I would like to bring this to the norm and culture, recognition or it appears we have deviated the Minister may suspend, cancel attention of the two Members as establishment of a particular...’ from the subject. There are two or vary any warrant issued under Sub section 2. If the Minister to whether they are on the same the one regarding the abolishment things here; tribal territory and realised that the community has page or not. Thank you. will raise eyebrows because in establishment of a Customary not been consulted, he will differ this country, we are free to voice Court. The section says, ‘every KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II: our concerns to the Government. with the one who submitted the Thank you Mr Chairman. Even Kgosi may..’ if there is a need to recommendation. I do not know Why would he abolish on his be establish a village, there has the tribes in those particular areas own? Let us look into these who brought the issue of tribal are not the only residents. You to be a representative who will territories but this one talks about things so that we do not end up represent the people who want establishment of Customary will find that there are tribes who in a compromised situation in the form part of the Bayei Kgotla their area to be established as Court and not what Members are long run. debating now. I think we are out yet they are not Bayei in origin. a village, that representative is of topic. Thank you. Not all people living in a certain Norms and traditional set up of Kgosi. The whole community tribal territory are of that tribal a particular tribe should remain. cannot approach the Minister. Kgosi approaches the Minister MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you origin Mr Chairman. Thank you. We value our Kgotla system, Mr Honourable Minister. I believe Chairman. Thank you. on their behalf. The Minister that Kgosi Garebakwena was KGOSI MACHILIDZA may not approve the request done with his debate. Let us (BOTETI REGION): Thank KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: made by the community to move on to Clause 5, Suspension you Mr Chairman. This is Thank you Mr Chairman. establish a village if it is a cattle and dismissal of members. a straight forward issue Mr According to my understanding, post for example. Issues of tribal Chairman. When we address this Bill follows what is already administration are covered in KGOSI MOREMI: Clause 5 these issues, we should note on the ground, a Customary Court Bogosi Act. Customary Courts (1), ‘the Minister may dismiss Act says that Kgosi may be sent or suspend for any period..’, let whether they will benefit us or or village cannot be established us rephrase it so that it says, ‘the as a representative and it says, not. When the law is established without consultation between Minister may dismiss or suspend, and it excludes tradition or Kgosi and the community. Kgosi ‘every Kgosi,’ though it could for a specific period he may norm, then it is a challenge, Mr may initiate the whole process be any of the Dikgosi kgolo. It deem fit, any member who has Chairman. I suggest that the word but he will still consult with the appears like we are discussing abused his power or is incapable ‘norm’ and ‘traditional set up of community or vice versa. Then tribalism but that is not part of of exercising the same.’ Thank a tribal territory’ be included after that the Kgotla could be this Bill. Take Mahalapye for you Mr Chairman. 52 53 Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Second Reading Second Reading KGOSI KAHIKO III: Thank suspend for any period he may HONOURABLE MEMBERS: case, if the suspended Kgosi is you Mr Chairman. I believe deem fit, any member who Laughter! a Headman of record, Headman Clause 5 is straight forward but appears to have abused his power of Arbitration or Motshwarelela there should be consultation or is incapable in excercising…” KGOSI MASUNGA: I Kgosi; Kgosikgolo is the only with the community because Kgosi Masunga is right by understand the Honourable person closer to those people, that member was brought in by suggesting that consultation and Minister Mr Chairman. A code not the Minister. Kgosikgolo is the community. Thank you Mr period of dismissal be included of conduct for public service still the one who will notice if the Chairman. in the first clause and no one applies to us when we are found Kgosi who has been suspended can dispute that. However, guilty of offences, we can be shows repentence and behaves KGOSI MASUNGA: Thank you issues differ in the sense that interdicted. In this case my focus appropriately. Kgosikgolo should Mr Chairman. I also believe that when a Kgosi is caught stealing, is on the dismissal or suspension be given the power to reinstate there should be a specific period waiting for the appointment of of Kgosi once he is found guilty that particular Kgosi after for dismissal together with the a committee is something else. whilst on duty because the code informing the Minister about consultation of the community. Abuse of power encompasses of conduct applies to Kgosi the improved behaviour. The Mr Chairman, there should be a lot things, it may be Kgosi when he is in office. There is clause only gives the Minister a committee which works with who has been found guilty of an another one which applies at the the powers to re-instate that the Minister because there is a offence while in the office. Some administration of Government particular Kgosi. I do not know thin line between Bogosi issues Dikgosi are involved in home office level but because they are if I understood it well, but if not, versus political issues. Dikgosi wrecking disputes, taking other two different things which carry pardon me Mr Chairman. are not even sure about how long people’s property while others weight, I try to merge them. MR CHAIRMAN: Members they will remain in office. I am are caught in village brawls Bogosi institution is too big for who want to make a clarification of the view that there should be and other things that I do not the Minister. There is need to should press the microphone proper procedures and guidelines want to outline. If that happens, have an independent authority because when you raise hands, on conditions that may lead to eventually the community loses which we will all trust to make I do not know if you want to suspension or dismissal. This respect for Kgosi. If Kgosi could fair decisions. Some of the debate or seek clarity. Let us will ensure that there is some suggest another clause but leave decisions which are taken may follow procedure Honourable level of fairness. In Molepolole the one about consultation and appear to have some influences Members. and , committees were period of dismissal, that would and not just and fair. That was my argument. Thank you Mr set up to resolve Bogosi issues be better. Maybe he could Chairman. KGOSI SEBOKO (BALETE): Mr Chairman; I think that that propose something different, Let us bear in mind that this approach can work for us. The like commissions which were KGOSI RAMOKWENA: particular Customary Courts people who are nominated into mentioned by Kgosi Moeti earlier Thank you Mr Chairman. “On Act includes new Members such the committee should understand on. Thank you Mr Chairman. such dismissal or for a period of as Court Presidents. Therefore Bogosi to a certain level. his suspension, the Member shall as we keep mentioning Kgosi MR CHAIRMAN: But there is be disqualified from exercising yo Mogolwane, we should HONOURABLE no one who has taken anything any powers as a Member of the remember that we have new TSHIRELETSO: Mr Chairman, from anyone in this House, Kgotla unless he is expressly re- people in the structure. We “the Minister may dismiss or Right? instated by the Minister”. In this argued against suspensions and 54 55 Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Second Reading Second Reading other forms of reprimanding Minister may dismiss or suspend Chairman. Are we going to put MR CHAIRMAN: That is why when Bogosi Act was amended a member of a customary court. ourselves at a disadvantage just I said that members should read in this House but those sections This new Act brings a very because of the new members against the old one. Section 10 were passed anyway. Thank you important aspect which was not who have been added to this says, “that the Minister may Mr Chairman. there initially, there is a part Act? The Minister supervises direct session to be held at such which says, “after affording such them. The one which carries times and places as he shall think KGOSI RAMOKWENA: a member an opportunity to be more weight for us is the one fit” that is the one which has been Thank you Mr Chairman. It would heard...” something that is not which involves consultation removed. That is the amendment be best if the supervising Kgosi there in the Act in use now. We with the community. Let us not at 10, we move on to is aware of the circumstances should appreciate the fact that compromise ourselves over leading to the suspension of his Clause 7. this has been included in the new officers who have representation juniors. Some cases may just Bill. crop up without the knowledge of the Minister. Clause 7 amends section 19 by of the Senior Kgosi solely to Moving on to the next point KGOSI KGARI II: Kgosi deleting “customary court.” embarrass others. The Act should Mr Chairman, Kgosi Mosadi Machilidza, you are right when Clauses 8, 9, 10 and 11. therefore include aspects which has highlighted that the word you say that the community Your silence means that the will protect the accused Kgosi ‘member’ is inclusive of us carries more weight and it is sections are okay. Shall we pass or a member of that court. Thank Dikgosi, Court Presidents and covered in the Bogosi Act like. Honourable Members you Mr Chairman. members of the Customary It is not important to include it in this Section because this Court of appeal. A member of the KGOSI LOTLAMORENG KGOSI GAREBAKWENA Bill focuses on members of Customary Court of appeal does II (BAROLONG): Thank you (MOLEPOLOLE REGION): the Customary Court which not lead any tribal community Mr Chairman. I would like to Thank you Mr Chairman. Dikgosi encompasses other members which needs consultation upon comment on clause 11 (5) (b) are not public officers and their who are not Dikgosi. I think I their suspension. The same goes have explained myself; I will go and (d). We were advised that at coronation follows a procedure for Court Presidents. We are thus far Mr Chairman. the High court, they attach the unique to Bogosi; where there is aware that when Kgosi is to be furniture if there are no other consultation with the community suspended, Bogosi Act guides MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you means of payment from that and the leadership. Is it not the entire procedure. Therefore, Kgosi Kgari. I believe that we offender. It is not that they take proper to follow the same route let us not amend it lest we have debated clause 5. If there is all the furniture. Let us consider when they are reprimanded or forget that there are other people no comment on clause 6 then we other Acts alongside this one Mr suspended so that the process involved apart from Dikgosi. If move on to clause 7. Chairman. includes whoever took part in we Dikgosi powers to dismiss, KGOSI KGARI II: Pardon KGOSI BOIDITSWE their coronation? Thank you sir. Court Presidents would not have me Mr Chairman, I needed an officer to reprimand them. If clarification on clause 6, I need (SEROWE REGION): Thank KGOSI KGARI II the Minister has those powers to understand the part which you Mr Chairman. We should (BAKWENA): Thank you Mr then it is ok to me because… says, “amended by deleting the seriously consider attaching Chairman. Let us look at it this proviso to section 10”, what does the furniture of the offenders way. This is not a new clause, it KGOSI MACHILIDZA: the word ‘proviso’ mean in this because other people may decide has always been there that the On a point of clarification Mr case. Thank you. to commit an offence knowing 56 57 Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Second Reading Second Reading that they do not have anything but the offender committed that when there is nothing that KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Point that will be attached in lieu the crime whilst providing for can be attached, the matter of clarity. I would like Kgosi of payment to the crime. The themselves, they will continue should be referred back to the Kahiko to explain what he means same goes for those who inflict to provide for themselves as they presiding officer. The presiding about the power to re-open the permanent injuries to others work Mr Chairman. officer will then summon cases; does he mean the Kgosi then they go scot free. In other the complainant and inform I do not know why this has been who was presiding over the case countries Sharia law is used; him about the situation, if the cannot open a case he tried? an eye for eye. Parliamentary left out; residential property complainant concurs that there Thank you. Counsel advised that if upon should not be attached. The is nothing that can be attached consideration only furniture house does not belong to the then the case is closed lawfully. KGOSI KAHIKO III: Let is found in the house of the offender alone but there is a Therefore what we should me explain. When a case has accused, then some of it can be partner and children involved. consider finding employment for been tried, and let us say that attached to pay off the charge. If there is nothing to be attached them at Ipelegeng for example an offender was charged P500 If an offender is fit enough to then the offender should be given to pay off the debt. The other which they cannot pay, when do manual work, they can de- some work to do, be it to fix a option has been tried and it the offender does not have the stump a portion of the field for fence in the farms or something appears the complainants end money, then goods are attached to recover that amount to pay the complainant. If it is during else. Thank you Mr Chairman. up overworking the offenders. the complainant, the offender is harvest time then that offender Thank you Mr Chairman. KGOSI TSHIPE given 30 days to appeal and 14 could assist in harvesting in the (MAHALAPYE REGION): KGOSI KAHIKO III days to have paid the fine. After fields. They should not just go Thank you Mr Chairman. This (GANTSI WEST REGION): that I as the presiding officer in unpunished. That is my concern clause is fine. I think that there Thank you Mr Chairman. I get that case signs and the secretary Mr Chairman… should be a provision which what Members are saying but I signs as well and we close the case. KGOSI MACHILIDZA: I do says if there is nothing to be do not understand something. not want to derail you Kgosi but attached by the Customary The procedure is that we hear KGOSI MACHILIDZA: Point as Magosi come up with these Court then the matter be referred cases and pass the sentence of clarity, Mr Chairman. What laws, we should ensure that back to the presiding officer to and the then the case is closed. I know from past experience is there is fairness. We will always decide otherwise. That is the I therefore do not know if there that in most cases when a person have people who are so poor that only provision that I feel should is any other Kgosi who has the is fined and given a time frame they will not have anything that be included. Thank you Mr power to re open a closed case. to pay, if he fails his goods are could be attached. Kgosi should Chairman. Is there any provision in the attached. If the goods are not explain if these people who will law? Maybe the Parliamentary attached then something has be working in the fields will be KGOSI LEMPADI Counsel could assist. Maybe if to be done. He can work at provided with food as they may (OKAVANGO): Thank you there is a request for revisional Ipelegeng and pay the fine like not have anything to eat as they Mr Chairman. I would like to judgement at the high court, that Kgosi said. If there are no goods do this work. address the issue of an offender can work. I have been requested to attach, the case is not closed who does not have anything to do that before but I declined because the court order has not KGOSI BOIDITSWE: I to be attached Mr Chairman. because I know the law and I been executed. Thank you Mr understand Honourable Member, There is a provision in the Act could not do that… Chairman. 58 59 Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Second Reading Second Reading ASSISTANT MINISTER OF to assist that person to get their because now I am getting more cannot be closed while the court LOCAL GOVERNMENT payment. A case gets closed requests for clarification. I had order has not been executed. If AND RURAL after the Court Order has been wanted to stop… there are no goods to be attached DEVELOPMENT (HON executed then the next step is taken; the TSHIRELETSO): Further HONOURABLE sheriff decides whether the clarification. Mr Chairman, you KGOSI KAHIKO III: Mr TSHIRELETSO: On a point offender can serve a jail term or are parents and leaders of the Chairman, once the case is of clarification Mr Chairman. not because even the Customary nation. Other offenders may be closed, it should remain like that. Before Kgosi moves on. Let Courts Act stipulates that failure disabled or wheel chair bound I stand by my word because that’s us not pass this clause because to pay up the fine attracts a jail due to accidents and will not be the truth. When a closed case is Members were still explaining sentence. able to work in the Ipelegeng reopened it would mean that the to Kgosi Kahiko that when the programme. Let us consider court is going to be assembled goods have not been attached KGOSI KAHIKO III: I that as well, there should be twice. Where is that case going the case remains open. Other would like to move on to the something that could be done to to be heard, are we going to have members even raised a point that one concerning attachment of assist the situation Mr Chairman. to start the case afresh with the Kgosi has to sign the warrant for goods. In this particular Bill, same defendant and plaintiff or attaching the goods, and still the there are no specified goods to be KGOSI KAHIKO III: Mr it will be a continuation? Please case remains open until the court attached. Magistrates Court Act, Chairman, Customary Court is assist... order has been executed. Through section 39 has a specification competent like magistrate court you Mr Chairman, maybe the of the furniture and goods to MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, or the high court, however, Parliamentary Counsel could be attached. We therefore need Kgosi Kahiko. Let us move on. there has never been an instance assist us on this one. to align these Acts so that all Debating about opening a case where a case was reopened at the aspects are covered in both Acts. or not will not take us anywhere. magistrates court or high court. MR CHAIRMAN: I still have more Acts to use Let us focus on the issue at hand, It is wrong. I am moving, Mr Parliamentary Counsel (PC), Mr Chairman; please do not be which is the goods that have to Chairman. maybe you could explain the impatient with me. be attached. concept of closing a case. Kgosi KGOSI LEMPADI: Kgosi Kahiko maintains that Kgosi MR CHAIRMAN: As you should clarify this point. When KGOSI KAHIKO III: Let me who tried the case cannot re open keep quoting, please be mindful you pass judgement, a time frame move and leave it at that. it if the offender has not obeyed of time. I know that there is a is given for the person to have MR CHAIRMAN: I had the court order. bag that you use to carry your paid the fine, failure to which thought you were done Kgosi as documents, let it not distract you his goods will be attached. Kgosi you sat down. ACTING PARLIAMENTARY and hinder the progress of the is the one signs the warrants of COUNSEL (MS House. attachment for the goods of that KGOSI KAHIKO III: I was not MOROLONG): Thank you offender. If the complainant has done yet, it is just that Members Mr Chairman. In a case there is KGOSI KAHIKO III: Thank not received their payments, they were seeking clarity as I debated. a defendant and a plaintiff. The you Mr Chairman for being go back to the court and inform I am still going to debate as I still case will remain open until the patient with me. I would like to Kgosi that they have not been have other document to support complainant receives what he suggest that payment ‘in kind’ paid. Kgosi has to find a way my argument. Let me leave it asked for before the court. It be included in this Act for those 60 61 Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Second Reading Second Reading who cannot pay the fine. This is KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH state that if a person is fit then the complainant benefits directly. provided for in Section 6 of the EAST): Thank you Mr that person should be made to do Thank you Mr Chairman. , that Chairman. I tend to concur with extra mural work as it is done in MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable Courts may order a person to Members who feel that there the criminal cases. Extra mural is Minister, clause 11 of the Bill pay in kind. This Section has to has to be a way that offenders on its own, a shame and it would says, “Section 25 of the Act is be amended so that people who should pay their fine. Let us look be punishment enough. amended by – (a) substituting are owed receive what is due to at the punitive system against subsection (3)…” it therefore them. the restorative justice system, KGOSI MOSADI: On a point of means that subsection 1 and 2 sending someone to prison may clarification Mr Chairman. Kgosi MR CHAIRMAN: Before you remain as they are in the Act cause more harm than good. Masunga, we are talking about move on Kgosi, Section 25 (2) compensation. A judgement is Clause 11 is about attachment HONOURABLE MEMBER: has included ‘payment in kind’. passed and a fine has to be paid of goods. The customary court ... (Inaudible)... KGOSI KAHIKO III: I am just is overwhelmed by the collection to compensate the complainant, going forward. As we debate this of attached goods. The officers so if an offender is made does MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi Bill we should consider things who assist in the collection of extra mural activities, who is Masunga asked if 1 and 2 still such as civil imprisonment. This those goods were faced with going to pay the complainant? remain, but 3 is replaced by a will assist with the options to a challenge of the outstanding new sub section. The issue of take when a person has failed KGOSI MASUNGA: Thank compensatory fines across the payment by money or in kind is to pay for the offence they have country. Defaulter squads have you Kgosi Seboko, I was merely still part of the Act. committed. Let me go that far Mr been established to try and citing that as an example. I think Chairman, thank you. collect the goods but then again, Kgosi and the complainant could KGOSI TELEKELO that is extra expenses for the KGOSI GAREBAKWENA agree on satisfactory amount of (MOSHUPA REGION): Thank Government. (MOLEPOLOLE REGION): work at the fields for example you Mr Chairman. I feel that Section 25 or Clause 11 of this Thank you Mr Chairman. I I believe that provisions for as compensation. That would be Bill is too flexible for offenders. would like to comment on what Customary Law should be made better than civil imprisonment. Some people will borrow money the Minister said about a person so that the law can cover the court Civil imprisonment should be left from others with the intention being involved in an accident to take proper decisions against for higher courts which deal with of buying groceries for their and rendered unfit to perform an offender who does not have huge debts. In our cases mostly families for example; and they any other duty to pay for the anything that could be attached. we deal with P500 fines which do refuse to pay the money back. offence they did. Some could It is our efforts all together as not call for civil imprisonment. In most instances if items like lose both limbs for example, the Government and the nation Payment in kind has different tool box or furniture are attached but their brains would be useful to try and address the poverty and therefore they could still interpretations; this one should eradication issue. If we attach then that person rushes to find be employed as accountants. clearly state that when a person money to redeem those items. There has to be proper medical the property that the person has been fined, the court will I therefore do not concur with examination to establish if a may not have the opportunity have the power to make an order person cannot work to pay the acquire again, it defeats the the suggestion that some items debt off, then the case could be whole purpose. If there could for the complainant to be paid. It should not be attached. Thank closed. Thank you. be a clause which will clearly would be a fair assessment where you.

62 63 Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Tuesday 29th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Second Reading Second Reading KGOSI MOSADI (BALETE): else could be attached because I be working to pay in kind. The is always done before judgement Thank you Mr Chairman. I believe that these are the items Court Bailiffs are the ones who is passed. We have had cases would like to address the clause which most people have. On are responsible for following up of damage where one family which talks about attachment the one regarding payment in those who pay in kind and make requires cattle as payment. If of goods. I would like to kind, like I have already said sure that the work is done. Thank there are no cattle and the other understand the part which says, before, we represent different you Mr Chairman. family is really poor, the two ‘any necessary bedding,’ what is regions; therefore who is going parties are called to re assess necessary to one person may not to supervise the offenders as they MR CHAIRMAN: Can you the case and close it seeing that be necessary to the other. Let this work in the fields for example? kindly move on Kgosi Mosadi, the offender has failed to pay Clause be clear and state what is Who is going to make sure that clarifications are derailing us. and there is nothing that could deemed as necessary furniture they do a good job in the fields be done to recover the damage. and household goods. As for the to compensate the complainants? KGOSI MOSADI: Thank you Therefore I request that we leave food items, it is understandable Mr Chairman, I seek protection this Section as it is Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF while I am on the floor and those Thank you Mr Chairman. The same goes for tools of trade, LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND who seek clarity should come the owner will do anything RURAL DEVELOPMENT up with substantive reasons KGOSI TOTO II in their power to redeem the (HON TSHIRELETSO): On to qualify what Court Bailiffs (KGALAGADI SOUTH): tools. I understand the fact that a point of clarification. Kgosi will be doing. I believe that Still on the same Clause Mr we represent different regions Mosadi needed an explanation we are creating more work for Chairman, we should not be too where economic situations on what constitutes necessary ourselves. People will borrow timid as Customary Courts; we differ. Maybe what can apply at bedding. Let us consider how the money fully aware that nothing should prove to the nation that Mosolotshane for instance, will High Court runs its proceedings. will be done if they do not pay we have powers as well. The only not apply at . My fear There should be price limit for the it back. We should therefore items that should not be attached is that we are going to adopt this bedding which can be attached. I consider the complainant and are food, clothes and drinks. The Bill which is similar to the Act wanted to clarify that if people what they get at the end of the rest of the items can be attached. used at magistrate courts and know the limit of the furniture day as compensation. I suggest Everything should be attached fail to gratify the people that we to be attached then they would that we leave the Customary Mr Chairman, including cars serve. We are going to fail to refrain from getting into debts. Courts as they are; I have not so that the complainants could attach a person’s goods because I agree with Kgosi Mosadi that seen anybody suffering because get their money because in they would have been rendered the necessary equipment should their goods have been attached. some cases when people realize necessary; items such as fridges, have a limit because if there is They make efforts on their that their valuables have been books and tools of trade. I none, people will be confused. own to work in the Ipelegeng attached they rush to pay, so let believe that these items should Thank you. programme to pay off their debts. all these valuables be attached be attached and if the owners I feel that we should leave this for fair judgement. Thank you feel that the items are necessary KGOSI BOIDITSWE: On Bill as it is on goods procedure Mr Chairman. then they will make sure that a point of clarification. Kgosi for attaching them. KGOSI POTSOENG (NGAMI they redeem them. Apart from raised a concern that there is no One Member talked about the REGION): Thank you Mr those items, I do not know what one to supervise whoever will disabled offenders; an assessment Chairman, I concur with Kgosi 64 65 Wednesday 30th January, 2013 Chairman’s Remarks Wednesday 30th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Second Reading (Resumed Debate) Mosadi and Kgosi Toto II, MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you even things which are deemed Kgosi Potsoeng. It is 1600 hours, that we were done with Clause who has been sent to deliver a necessary to the offender should we shall therefore adjourn for the 11 as the Honourable Members summons from Kgosi. Nowadays be attached. The complainants day; we will meet tomorrow at had already commented on it. We it looks like people can only would have lost necessary things half past two in the afternoon. Let were about to vote. honour that if Kgosi is the one too, that is why they reported the me request Members to kindly doing that. They at times choose matter. It would not be fair if the remain after the adjournment so CUSTOMARY COURTS any other day for themselves judgement favours the offender (AMENDMENT) BILL, based on what is necessary in their that we make arrangements for without any valid reason. That tomorrow. 2012 (NO. 21 OF 2012) is contempt of court. Maybe it is lives. I take it that the only items Second Reading that should not be attached are ADJOURNMENT high time we increased these low food, clothes and their partners. (Resumed Debate) charges because Kgosi ought to The meeting adjourned at 4:00 We have to prepare this Act in Clause 12 (Amendment Of be respected. p.m. until Wednesday 30th such a way that it will benefit us Section 27 Of The Act) I am not sure if there can be all at the end of the day. Kgosi January, 2013 at 14.30 a.m. contempt of court in our lower Boiditswe has suggested that the Wednesday 30th January, 2013 May we proceed to Clause 12 plot should not be attached. Mr which talks about Section 27 of customary courts because THE HOUSE met at 2:30 p.m. Chairman, even though this item the Act? No comments? Kgosi can summon someone falls under the Magistrates court, (THE CHAIRPERSON in the on behalf of Kgosikgolo and HONOURABLE MEMBERS: we should bear in mind that most Chair) if that individual does not feel Yes it is fine. of the people use their plots as P R A Y E R S like honouring that, they just security to acquire loans at banks. Clause 13 (Amendment Of choose to stay at home. In this Therefore when we include this, * * * * Section 13 Of The Act) case scenario, we are faced the lawyers will find a loophole with a challenge because we do in the Customary Court Act and CHAIRMAN’S Even if we are of the opinion use it against the complainant REMARKS that we should just leave it as it not have anything to say to that that it has not been listed in the is, we should take note of any person since we do not have a MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI items that could be attached. Let change that might have occurred. legal leg to stand on. GABORONE): Good afternoon us try to balance these issues Mr It talks about contempt of court. Honourable Members. Even Chairman, let the offenders pay Should we leave it as it is? Are KGOSI SEEMEKO: On a point though we spent the whole what is due to the complainants, we satisfied with the charges that of order Mr Chairman. Thank morning together and greeted period. are stated there? you Mr Chairman. I have heard each other I do not think it matters the Honourable Member talking The Customary Courts also has how many times you greet each KGOSI BOIDITSWE about contempt of court. I want a challenge of storing the goods other in a day. I would also like (SEROWE REGION): I am to know if he understands the to welcome the Honourable not sure if we should just leave before they are auctioned since difference between contempt of the law states that those goods Minister Tshireletso and her it as it is because disobedient court and disobedience of lawful should be kept in a safe place officials this afternoon. When behaviour is rampant these days. to avoid damage. Let all the we adjourned yesterday, we were Dikgosi are being undermined. orders. I need him to clarify items be attached. Thank you Mr on Clause 11, which talks about It is high time the community that because it seems like he is Chairman. Section 25 of the Act. I take it started honouring any messenger confusing issues here. 66 67 Wednesday 30th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Wednesday 30th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Second Reading (Resumed Debate) Second Reading (Resumed Debate)

KGOSI BOIDITSWE: I there in the old Act and even just get the strokes without MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you understood the Honourable in the current one that we have being examined by the doctors Kgosi Potsoeng. There was Member on the issue of contempt here. I have also heard Kgosi to certify their fitness. So issues another issue that was raised of court and disobedience of mentioning that other Dikgotla like these should be covered so yesterday about warrants when lawful orders. It is a bit confusing are lower, but I want to highlight that they are catered for by the it comes to customary courts. when it comes to customary that there is a Clause that I read law. I thank you Mr Chairman. Even though we are talking laws. It falls both under yesterday which states that these about warrants, we must also bear in mind that Dikgosi have disobedience and contempt. If Dikgotla are of arbitral nature, KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II their own stipulated jurisdiction an individual fails to come for they do not have the powers to (BAROLONG): Thank you Mr Chairman. I understand what within their warrants. Should we a hearing at the Kgotla, maybe compel the offender to report pass Clause 13 as it is? it could be labelled as contempt to the Kgotla. I just wanted to Kgosi is saying, but there is a of court. If they are called by clarify that. We should also bear section under the Customary Court Act that talks about HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Kgosi on any other issue besides in mind that the only changes Yes. court cases, then it could fall that have been included are the corporal punishment and when under disobedience. I do not increment of fines from P100.00 it should be administered under CLAUSE 14 the Criminal Procedure and understand what the Honourable to P500.00 or three months to 6 Evidence (CP&E). Mr Chairman Should we leave it as it is? Member was saying; he is better months imprisonment, with or may I request that we put the placed to explain it. I want to without corporal punishment. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: issue of corporal aside and believe that a summons is related Yes. Those are the only changes that reserve it for another discussion. to the two in the sense that a have been suggested on this Here we are only talking about person might be summoned in MR CHAIRMAN: CLAUSE Clause and those are the ones administration of corporal conjunction with the case. Even 15 that we should focus on. punishment and the issue of though it might not necessarily how it should be done is detailed This one states that “reports of be a trial, but it can be something KGOSI MACHILIDZA under the Customary Court Act. cases should be submitted to the related to the case. For instance, (BOTETI REGION): Thank Director of Tribal Administration that person might be summoned Thank you Mr Chairman. you Mr Chairman. I think or Administrative Officer”. The to the Kgotla because the person under Section 13, the aim was KGOSI POTSOENG (NGAMI word “Administrative Officer” they owe has come to collect the to increase the compensation REGION): I propose that has been removed. Should we money which they have not yet charges to P500.00. Honourable Clause 13 should just pass as adopt it with the changes? paid. In that case, what do they Members, sometimes when an it is. Perhaps just to add on to do? Let me stop there before I offender has been charged with what is being said, let us also HONOURABLE MEMBER: confuse matters. I thank you. take into consideration the corporal punishment, they have Where do we see it? number of strokes that should MR CHAIRMAN: Thank to be examined by a medical be administered in corporal MR CHAIRMAN: It is Clause you Kgosi Boiditswe. May I doctor before being punished and punishment. We should not just 15, in the current law on Section kindly advise that Section 13 that delays the whole process. include strokes without being 31. It also states that ‘Reports which is about section 28 in the While we continue amending specific to their number because of cases to be submitted to the old Act has explained in detail these laws, have we included we have amended the charges Director of Tribal Administration what contempt of court is, it is the doctors? Initially one could and the sentence. Thank you. or Administrative Officer, a 68 69 Wednesday 30th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Wednesday 30th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Second Reading (Resumed Debate) Second Reading (Resumed Debate)

Customary Court shall at such MR CHAIRMAN: I understand winning, will it not be counted include the time frame. For times and in such form as the Kgosi but I take it that as bribery? We need a clear instance, it might happen that a Minister may direct submit to the Honourable Members have differentiation between the two person gives Kgosi a gift maybe Director of Tribal Administration read the whole of Section 34 two months before the case arises, of the nearest Administrative because it will land some people and understood it. It reads thus, into trouble. then the assumption will that Officer a report of all cases tried ‘Whoever being or expecting to the gift was attached to the case in the court’. be a member of Customary Court KGOSI KAHIKO III whereas that gift was innocent. It Clause 16 accepts or obtains or agrees to (GANTSI WEST REGION): should be clear as to when it is accept or attempt to obtain from Thank you Mr Chairman. This okay for Kgosi to receive a gift Is about ‘Adjudication without any person for himself or for issue is just straight forward; it is from someone. Maybe it will not authority’. It is for those who any other person, any reward, only us confusing ourselves. If it be proper to receive a gift from will commit crime. We shall whether in money or otherwise happens that I preside over a case a person whom Kgosi has ever leave it as it is. for corruptly or illegally doing in a different customary court, presided over their case at any Clause 17 or for bearing to do any act as a then after that the person who point in life. Therefore it will be member of the court or showing won the case gives me a gift, advisable to include time frame to state the best time to receive Is about ‘Members of Customary off to show, favour or disfavour what will be the motive behind a gift from a person. I thank you. Courts taking rewards’. I shall to any person’. In other words, that and why should I accept pass it with the belief that we Kgosi might receive a gift from such a gift? Or they give me KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH have all read this because at the someone so that they might some gift before the case starts, EAST): Thank you Mr end of it all, this is the same law obtain favour from him. In that why would they give you such a Chairman. I believe Kgosi that will be used by us in our way, it is wrong and I believe gift? We should know that once customary courts. As we keep Kahiko has already clarified that is basically the explanation we accept such gifts, they are the this issue that the integrity of on adopting Clauses, let us be of the reward. ones that will earn us trouble. If the Court as a Presiding officer cognisant of that. the gift is given with no motive and how they relate to the issues KGOSI BOIDITSWE KGOSI LEMPADI behind, then it is harmless, but reported to the Kgotla matters (SEROWE REGION): It is a bit (OKAVANGO): It should be if there are strings attached, then because it should never be confusing Mr Chairman because stated clearly what is meant by you will be answerable. The Act compromised. Even the integrity it will be difficult to draw the according to the previous section of Kgosi should not in any way rewards because sometimes one line between accepting a bribe is very straight forward and it be compromised. This issue of may be given gifts which might and a gift. Giving is part of our does not pose any challenge. I exchanging gifts is not our core be labelled as rewards. This culture. Furthermore, this should thank you Mr Chairman. business as Bogosi. Of course really puts us in a tight corner as not hinder people from giving it might happen that Kgosi is MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Dikgosi because it is our people Dikgosi some gifts from a level given gifts, but that should not Kgosi Kahiko. who shower us with these gifts as of knowing and having a history influence how we work. Mr Chairman, I find this Clause a way of appreciating our work, together just because they have KGOSI MOETI II fitting and proper because it has but on the other hand these are a pending case to attend to. If it (SPECIALLY ELECTED): been there before. One aspect that the things that might land us in happens that I preside over that Thank you Mr Chairman. I think I would like to highlight is that prison. person’s case and they end up on the issue of gifts we should of bribery. We are living in the

70 71 Wednesday 30th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Wednesday 30th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Second Reading (Resumed Debate) Second Reading (Resumed Debate) era where bribery and corruption MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you KGOSI POTSOENG (NGAMI that wherever applicable, it have become part of our daily Kgosi Tshipe. Let us pass Clause REGION): I do not support should be applied. Now let us lifestyles in our communities. If 17. what Mr Chairman is saying, we focus on ‘supervisory powers we are to make laws that will still need to make an amendment. If allow for the existing loop holes Clause 18: Is about ‘Taking of Kgosi’ which is what this to continue being there, it will reward for influencing customary we are to use only ‘he’, then it Clause is about. We should not not be fair. I am of the view that courts’. will imply that we are referring dwell much on this issue because this Clause should be left as it is. to men even if it is the woman we will ultimately lose track of Clause 19: Is about ‘penalty for I thank you. speaking. We have to include false evidence’. time on what we are supposed to both ‘he and she’. I am saying actually do. MR CHAIRMAN: As we Clause 20: 21: Is about this because we have a woman KGOSI TOTO II continue with this debate, let ‘Supervisory powers of Kgosi’. before us whom we refer to as us be cognisant of the fact that (KGALAGADI SOUTH): KGOSI MOREMI ‘he’ so we ought to address her naturally Kgosi is showered with Thank you Mr Chairman. The (BATAWANA): We should properly. On other Clauses, ‘he gifts, but what this Clause is word ‘Chief’ should be replaced include ‘his/her’ under Clause 40 trying to emphasise is that gifts or she’ has been used, so this with ‘Kgosi’. and 42. should not be given to favour should be amended as well. MR CHAIRMAN: In this Bill, or disfavour another person in a MR CHAIRMAN: I would MR CHAIRMAN: Thank Kgosi is referred to as ‘Kgosi’. case. For progress sake, I do not like to give the floor to our you Kgosi Potsoeng. I believe find anything wrong with it and legal counsel to explain the the point that Kgosi Potsoeng KGOSI TOTO II: Thank you therefore we should proceed. usage of ‘he/ she’ before we is trying to drive home here is Mr Chairman, I was looking at proceed. I think Kgosi Kealetile that we should also look at the the old one. KGOSI TSHIPE has reminded me of something Interpretation Act. Our Legal (MAHALAPYE REGION): because yesterday we were MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you Counsel mentioned that in that Thank you Mr Chairman. I do talking about ‘he’ or ‘she’... Kgosi Toto. not wish to be long on this. I Act, ‘he’ includes women. would like to advice Honourable PARLIAMENTARY KGOSI POTSOENG (NGAMI KGOSI BOIDITSWE Members that as we amend COUNSEL: Thank you Mr REGION): Thank you Mr (SEROWE REGION): I think this law, we should also take Chairman. Under the current Chairman. I need clarification on into consideration that this law Customary Courts Act, it will not the concept used here is similar Clause 21 (2) which reads, “If a operates together with other be proper to use ‘he/she’ while to the one in the Bible because Kgosi acting under subsection laws. We are not making a law other acts use ‘he’ only. Therefore the word ‘man’ has been used (1) considers that any finding, that will be unique for Dikgosi. we shall remain using only ‘he’, to refer to mankind. I do not sentence or order of a customary These laws should synchronize think its usage can cause any with each other, so we ought to until it has been amended in the court is illegal or improper, he complications. I thank you Mr be careful that we do not speak Interpretation Act. I thank you. shall forward the record with Chairman. out of context of the law. We such remarks thereon as he thinks have our Legal Counsel here MR CHAIRMAN: I know that who will advise us as to what to the Honourable Minister was MR CHAIRMAN: This issue of fit to the court to which an appeal include and what not. I thank you happy when we talked about he/ ‘he or she’ was raised yesterday, lies…” In the beginning, it states Mr Chairman. she because of the recent issue. so that means there is a motion that Kgosi has got the powers to 72 73 Wednesday 30th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Wednesday 30th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Second Reading (Resumed Debate) Second Reading (Resumed Debate) take rounds in his region to audit have been overlooked, then he KGOSI KAHIKO III: the other as it is because sometimes when the cases, it is not something will take such a case and submit one is that of the use of the word, we amend the laws, we should do which is unlawful. Now under it to the higher court. It is not ‘may’, it is an indication that it that if they are not user friendly. subsection (2) it reads as if that necessarily an appeal as such, does not compel, right? Under I think if we amend this one, we can only happen if it is an appeal, but rather it is to submit to a (40) (1) it states that ‘a Kgosi will be disadvantaging ourselves. therefore, I am not sure as to higher court. I am not sure as to may’, which means it is not a Let us rather concentrate on how these courts operate, but the must to do that. Furthermore, Clauses that we see as stumbling whether it refers to appeals or fact is he submits it to the higher if Senior Chief asks for these blocks for us, they will be just instances whereby Kgosi courts which the appellant would records, subordinates are not amended if need be. discovers a case when doing have used to launch an appeal. compelled to furnish him with round checks in his regions. them. It should be replaced with MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you. KGOSI KAHIKO III ‘shall’ so that it binds everyone. Let us continue; Section 22 talks ASSISTANT MINISTER OF (GANTSI WEST REGION): The use of the word ‘may’ allows about Courts of Appeal. I would LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND I understand the Parliamentary Kgosi to choose whether they like to give the Honourable RURAL DEVELOPMENT Counsel’s advice, but I would allow Senior Kgosi to view the Minister the floor to explain (HON TSHIRELETSO): Kgosi like to understand the grounds records or not. Therefore, we what has changed in this Clause was reading subsection (2) which on which this case will be need to amend this so that it so that we do not pass it withb no he compared to subsection (1) but submitted, should it happen that compels them to. I thank you Mr understanding. (2) states that, ‘he shall forward some lawful procedures have Chairman. the record with such remarks…’ been overlooked, will it be a HONOURABLE then it further reads, ‘to the court revision or appeal? The other KGOSI TSHIPE TSHIRELETSO: Mr to which an appeal lies from that question is… (MAHALAPYE REGION): Chairman, the change here is customary court’ and that is the Thank you Mr Chairman. I that, “The Minister shall, by MR CHAIRMAN: Maybe part that Kgosi quoted. I thank think we should leave it as it is Order published in the Gazette, before you proceed Kgosi, did you Mr Chairman. because now if we use ‘shall’, establish customary courts of you read Sub section (3)? then it means they will be forced appeal to hear and determine ACTING PARLIAMENTARY KGOSI KAHIKO III: I have to do check-ups every now and such cases as shall be specified in COUNSEL: Thank you Mr read it, but my question is based then but they should do that if the Order” and it has been there. Chairman. According to my on the answer that was given… need be, hence the use of ‘may’ When I pointed out yesterday, I understanding, subsection (2) to allow for flexibility. said it gives the Minister powers states that, Kgosi has the powers MR CHAIRMAN: The one MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you to appoint President of the to audit his subordinates just that states that after the record Kgosi Tshipe. It is true that Customary Courts of Appeal. It to check if things are done has been submitted, then ‘they ‘Shall’ is a compelling word looks like it has been in existence accordingly. He can audit any will examine the record with a view to satisfying itself as to the whilst ‘may’ is flexible. that way and I have been advised case, not necessarily appeal correctness, legality or propriety by my colleagues that it is now cases but rather any case under of the proceedings and may make KGOSI MACHILIDZA under subsection (3), and it gives customary court. If it happens any such order thereon by way of (BOTETI REGION): Thank the Customary Court President that he sees any case that reveals revision as such court would be you Mr Chairman. I am of the the powers but initially it gave that certain lawful procedures empowered to make…?’ opinion that we should leave it the Minister the powers. It 74 75 Wednesday 30th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Wednesday 30th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Second Reading (Resumed Debate) Second Reading (Resumed Debate) states that ‘…a President of the states that, ‘a Customary Court used? I am just wondering if instance, if it at a Customary Customary Court of Appeal of Appeal may sit with assessors Dikgosi will be using their own Court of Appeal there is a hearing shall, in addition to any other whenever the court deems it discretion. When you take a on stock theft, I want to believe duties conferred by this Act, necessary to do so.’ Now my closer look at the jury system in they look for an expert on stock supervise the administration of question is, can they have any the United States of America, if theft and maybe when the case is Customary courts of Appeal’. I influence on the outcome of the we were to apply their practice, closed, that assessor is relieved of am not sure as to whether it is case or not because I know that it will mean that Kgosi will their duty. If it is a robbery case, clear Mr Chairman. I thank you. in United States of America the be responsible for identifying even though they are beyond jury is the assessor, so do these these assessors using their own our jurisdiction, they identify an KGOSI KGARI II assessors have any influence? standards including the duration expert in that area and it might be (BAKWENA): Thank you Mr of tenure of office. When a case MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable a lawyer. Mr Chairman, it really Chairman. I need clarification is closed, their term ends as well, Minister, Kgosi wants to know if depends on the nature of the case here. In the old Act, subsection however, they may be reinstated. assessors have any influence on because they will only need their 2 states that, ‘A customary court I thank you. of Appeal may sit with assessors the outcome of the case? services for that particular case whenever the court deems it ASSISTANT MINISTER OF MR CHAIRMAN: As we go on only. If there are other cases necessary to do.’ It looks like it is LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND with the Bill, there is a Clause which might need that expert, not included in the new one, why RURAL DEVELOPMENT that focuses on the Customary they will continue using them. is that so? I thank you. Court of Appeal which also (HON TSHIRELETSO): There MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable are various cases that are heard identifies its own assessors not MR CHAIRMAN: May we Minister, is there anything that at the court, so basically these individuals. please move on to the next Clause you would like to say in relation if we are done with Clause 22? assessors are there to advice but at KGOSI MASUNGA: I think to assessors because the main Are we all on the same page? the end of it all, the main decision it is the same thing because it question here is what purpose do The one that Kgosi Kgari was lies with the court. I had thought is done by the President of the they serve and whether they have talking about is under Clause 23. that Honourable Members would Customary Court of Appeal. powers. These two Clauses are different. focus on whether these assessors Now the question is, whose HONOURABLE Clause 23 - Constitution of serve any purpose, but as I have authority and which standard is TSHIRELETSO: Thank you Customary Court of Appeal already mentioned, they are there used to identify assessors? Does to advise. the court advertise for assessors Mr Chairman. One Honourable Now can you see it Kgosi Kgari? or they have people they always member has answered that it is under section 41 (2) ‘a KGOSI MASUNGA: Thank work with? Could we have question and I think it has also customary Court of Appeal may you Mr Chairman. As a follow clarification on that? been answered by the part that sit with assessors whenever the up to the question that was says, ‘...whenever the court court deems it necessary to do asked by Kgosi Ramokone KGOSI LOTLAMORENG deems it necessary to do so.’ As so.’ and the response given by the II: Thank you Mr Chairman. I Kgosi Lotlamoreng has already Honourable Minister; who is think the way which these cases said, they identify certain KGOSI RAMOKONE: Thank responsible for identifying these are heard vary because I do not expertise on a particular case you Mr Chairman. This Clause people and what is the criterion believe that they advertise. For until it is closed and it is upon 76 77 Wednesday 30th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Wednesday 30th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Second Reading (Resumed Debate) Second Reading (Resumed Debate) the court to decide whether they indicated that Kgosi can ask other be fine because it will be an I think it is something that can be keep them or not depending on Dikgosi to come and assess a case oversight structure which will done administratively because if the services needed. In a nutshell, with them and the question was, be responsible for assessment. computers are there, emails can their responsibility is to advise who gives them the powers to Even if the review is to be done be used so as to save time. It is during court sessions. I thank have an influence in the outcome on a P200 fine case, it is still fine not something that will demand you Mr Chairman. of a case. Basically, where do because we are dealing with two a lot, but the main hurdle will be they fit in our structure?May different people here who were places that still have no access to be we are relating two different involved in the case. If there was KGOSI TSHIPE: Thank you internet, however where there is, Mr Chairman. I wanted to advise issues here. I believe we are done a case that was heard, it will be it can be done. Honourable Members on the with 23. proper to have a review to see if issue of assessors and how it justice has been served. I think Clause 24 - Power of Appeal. KGOSI TSHIPE: Thank you was brought about. As we were it will be proper to have that as Mr Chairman. I am suggesting discussing various issues, it was an oversight body. Subsection The word Magistrate Court has that we also look at the issue realised that there is a need to 2 which states that ‘whenever a been removed. Should we leave of reviewing of cases in the have advisors at the Customary Customary court imposes upon it as it is? old Act because it states that Court of Appeal. Sometimes any person convicted of any only fines exceeding P200 are you will find that the Customary ...Silence... offence any sentence which is Court of Appeal panel lacks some eligible for review. If it is a reviewable under the provisions sentence, it should exceed six expertise on certain issues, as a Clause 25 - Review as of course. result, that will call for engaging of subsection (1) ...’ does not months. This is also in the new an expert on the issue at hand. I Clause 25 is section 45 of the act, sit well with me. With the way act. Furthermore, the other issue thank you Mr Chairman. should we leave it as it is? things are done, is there any that prompted me to suggest that possibility of using technology we look at the old Act is that we MR CHAIRMAN: I understand KGOSI KAHIKO III: I fail to instead? have been saying that sentences you Kgosi, but I think this word understand the purpose which and warrants should be increased assessor is still there in the Clause 25 serves because it is the I am looking at the fact that there when it comes to schedule. Now current Act under Section 41 (2) same issue that we just shot down is quite a distance between some if we are saying they should and it states that, ‘a Customary where District Commissioners sub districts and Customary be increased, why are we still Court of Appeal may sit with are given the powers to review Court of Appeal. That is why having a P200 fine and six assessors whenever the court cases. We refused to adopt it I wanted to know if it is not months imprisonment? Should deems it necessary to do so.’ So because it will prolong processes possible to use technology to we not increase them so that they it is there in the act and I believe unnecessarily. If a person has transmit records? I thank you. qualify for review because the some of us here have already had been charged a fine of P200 or warrants for Dikgosi will have ASSISTANT MINISTER OF an experience of what we are less, there is really no need to increased? LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND talking about. review that case, therefore it does not hold water. RURAL DEVELOPMENT KGOSI MACHILIDZA: I think I understand what Kgosi (HON TSHIRELETSO): The Thank you Mr Chairman. I Tshipe is trying to say because KGOSI MASUNGA: Mr Honourable Member’s proposal am a bit confused with the Honourable Members have Chairman I think a review will is in line with modern technology. issue of review of cases by the 78 79 Wednesday 30th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Wednesday 30th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Second Reading (Resumed Debate) Second Reading (Resumed Debate)

Customary Court of Appeal. that you have been of great help submit them as their drafts for President and Deputy Court Kgosi Masunga mentioned the to me ever since the beginning the resolution. We shall then be President. Maybe I am lost? issue of long distances and we of this Bill because you have able to look at each of them to know very well that our country assisted in clarifying some of be adapted as they are by the MR CHAIRMAN: Kindly has only two Courts of Appeal the issues on it. Concerning the Honourable House. repeat what you were saying serving a population of more issue of P200 fine which was Kgosi. Clause 26 Execution of orders than two million so this will be a mentioned by Kgosi Tshipe, KGOSI MOSADI: Clause of High Court, Magistrate challenge for us. Is it not possible we do not oppose the motion to 26 which is Section 46 on the for us to use the headquarters of increase the fines because he has Courts or Customary Courts new one states that, “A Lower Tribal Administration to allow mentioned that it has always been Execution of orders of High Customary Court shall carry into Dikgosi to review these cases there. Honourable Members are Court, Magistrate Courts or so as to speed up the processes at liberty to come up with new execution any decree or order of Customary Courts in the current including cutting costs? The fines and sentences. the High Court of a Customary Act, what has changed here email utilisation that has been Court of Appeal or a Higher Honourable Minister? Did we suggested is not possible unless On the issue that was mentioned Customary Court”. Now when just remove the word Magistrate our Government engages by Kgosi Machilidza, when it says Lower Court, it refers me Court because we have it in the private companies to connect referring back to Section 22, current law? back to the definition of Lower the internet. I thank you Mr we were saying that it gives the Customary Court and Higher Minister the powers to increase Chairman. HONOURABLE Customary Court, or has it been the number of the Customary TSHIRELETSO: ... as we used differently in this context? I MR CHAIRMAN: Before we Courts of Appeal. We were were busy on it, we realised that thank you. go any further, may I request the looking at the fact that the ‘Magistrate Court’ is the word Honourable Minister to clarify Minister might do so aiming at that we wanted to delete but it MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable some issues here, let us read reducing the work load. We can was not deleted. I thank you. Minister, if I have understood this Clause again, “but without amend the law so that it gives prejudice to any right of appeal him the power to do so because MR CHAIRMAN: Which Kgosi clearly, she is saying we which may exist under the we have been debating on the means the deletion of the word have defined the Higher and provisions of this Act.” In other same point. I thank you Mr ‘magistrate court’ was not Lower Customary Courts of words, it does not invalidate the Chairman. captured. Any comment on 26? Appeal and who fall under them. normal procedure where anyone Now when we look at this Clause, can appeal to Court of Appeal. MR CHAIRMAN: Thank KGOSI MOSADI: Thank you is it still referring to them? Nevertheless, I shall give this you, Honourable Minister. We Mr Chairman. I a bit confused opportunity to the Honourable are done with Clause 25. We when we talk about the Lower HONOURABLE Minister to clarify and even are going to skip Clause 26 Court in this Clause. It states that, TSHIRELETSO: I have been touch on the issue of P200 fine. because some of the suggested “A Lower Customary Court shall advised what Kgosi Mosadi amendments which we have carry into execution any decree is saying is the same thing. HONOURABLE submitted will be recorded as or order of the High Court.” Our Maybe I should give it to our TSHIRELETSO: Thank you they are from yesterday and definition of Lower Customary Parliamentary Counsel for Mr Chairman. I have realised Honourable Members will Court includes Kgosana, Court further clarification. 80 81 Wednesday 30th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Wednesday 30th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Second Reading (Resumed Debate) Resolution

PARLIAMENTARY other higher courts that it may 26 and 27, which are under the reward. With that, we shall get COUNSEL (MS use to refer issues to? current section 49. If there is no into the next stage of the bill. MOROLONG): Thank you. change in Clause 28, then we are Section 46 (1) is referring to MR CHAIRMAN: Can you done with the Second Reading of CUSTOMARY COURTS Lower Customary Court and it further explain your question this Bill which was mainly to look (AMENDMENT) BILL, is the same one which comprises Kgosi. at the details Clause by Clause. 2012 (NO. 21 OF 2012) of Kgosana which has Court KGOSI POTSOENG: It has I believe Honourable Members RESOLUTION President and Deputy Court been stated that the Lower understood the amendments they President. Basically, it means Customary Court shall execute were making very well. On that Allow me to read the section on resolution so that we are all if that if there is an order from all the orders from the Higher note, we have completed the Higher Customary Court by exercise of the Second Reading comprehend it. Clause 39 (6) of Court, now my question is if it our Rules of Procedure states Kgosi, Moemela Kgosi, Mothusa of the Customary Courts happens that the lower Court that; “when consideration of a Kgosi, or from High Court or has sentenced an offender who Amendment Bill. We are getting resolution of the Ntlo ya Dikgosi Magistrate Court, it should be stays in a region where there is into another stage of the Bill if on a Bill is taken, any Member done at the Lower Customary a higher court only, is it possible there is nothing the Honourable may bring a draft resolution on Court. When you go down to part for the lower court to request Minister wants to add on before the Bill for the consideration of 2 of the same section, it is focused the higher one to keep an eye on conclude on the Second Reading. the Ntlo ya Dikgosi. The draft on the Higher Customary Court the person to see to it that they ASSISTANT MINISTER OF shall be entered in full on the that all orders from Customary honour the court order rendered? LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND minutes of the proceedings of the Court of Appeal and High Court Ntlo ya Dikgosi. When all such MR CHAIRMAN: Maybe RURAL DEVELOPMENT should be executed just as they drafts have been brought up, the Parliamentary Counsel can (HON TSHIRELETSO): I are. I thank you. Chairperson shall move the drafts clarify on that, whether it is thank you Mr Chairman. There is in order until one is accepted as MR CHAIRMAN: Have we possible for a lower court to really not much to say except to a basis for discussion beginning all understood Honourable order a higher court to do that. thank this Honourable Members Members? Every lower court for the progress made so far. I with his or her own draft and should execute whatever PARLIAMENTARY believe that even our resolution proceeding with the remainder order given by a higher court. COUNSEL: Thank you. This drafts shall undergo the same in the order in which they were Therefore when the Higher Act was only focused on an level of serioussness. Moreover, brought up. The motion to be Customary Court orders a Lower order coming from a higher court I would like to thank you Mr moved by the Chairperson on a Customary Court to execute to a lower one. Other issues like Chairman because it has been draft resolution shall be that the something, it is obliged to do so. monitoring are not lawful. If they evident that you thoroughly read Chairperson or so and so’s draft The same should happen with have been done administratively, this Bill as you continued to resolution will be read Paragraph Higher Customary Court and then there is no harm in that as explain some concepts without by Paragraph. Once any such Customary Court of Appeal. long as it is done as a request. I any interjection from my side. I question has been agreed to, thank you. thank you. no motion shall be moved KGOSI POTSOENG: Now in respect of further drafts. I understand. Is it possible for MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you MR CHAIRMAN: I appreciate However portions thereof maybe Lower Customary Court to have very much, we shall skip Clauses that even though there is no be offered as amendment to the 82 83 Wednesday 30th January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Thursday 31st January, 2013 Questions For Oral Answer Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Resolution KGOSI MOSADI: Mr CHAIRMAN’S draft under consideration if they Honourable Minister to excuse Chairman, we mentioned the WELCOME REMARKS are relevant to it.” We have all us so that we may discuss a few issue of the use of “he” and “she” been debating this Bill and now issues that are meant for this in the Act and the Honourable MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI we have come to a stage where House only. I am not chasing you Minister stated that there is a GABORONE): Good morning Members can submit their drafts. away Honourable Minister, we possibility that the Act will be Honourable Members, Ministers Where Honourable Members just want to map a way foward amended. I hope I heard her and Senior public officers as well in crafting these resolution if the need to make any amendment, very well, if not I stand to be as the media. Compliments of the Members support my motion. they should indicate that in their corrected. I thank you. new season to those who have draft resolution. The Clerks at KGOSI MOSADI: I am MR CHAIRMAN: If I am not not been with us from Monday, the tables shall record that in not opposing what you are mistaken I thought I heard her more especially the Honourable writing, then from there, we shall saying Mr Chairman, I just saying that “he” or “she” are in Minister. We shall start today’s discuss them draft by draft until need clarification. I heard the the Interpretation Act and it only business with questions and then we have our final resolution as Honourable Minister saying uses “he”. This implied that if we proceed to the Customary Courts a House. That is our procedure. are to amend it on this Bill while that the Customary Courts Act (Amendment) Bill. Are we all on the same page? will soon be amended, can she on the Interpretation Act is not be specific with the time frame? amended, then we would have QUESTIONS FOR ORAL HONOURABLE MEMBERS: I am asking this because I am been referring to two entities ANSWER Yes Mr Chairman. not comfortable with some of that are not well explained by the the issues that we touched on A CAMP FOR THE MR CHAIRMAN: We are all Interpretation Act. We shall now yesterday and we might end up DEPARTMENT OF familiar with this practice of excuse the Honourable Minister having them as part of our dfrafts. WILDLIFE AND NATIONAL drafting our resolution and I so that we can remain to discuss For instance, on the issue of PARKS IN KACHIKAU am well aware that this is one our approach to drafting our Moemela Kgosi, we do not have stage that is quite difficult and resolution of the Bill. We shall KGOSI M. MMUALEFHE Moemela Kgosi yo mogolwane, consumes a lot of time. If this meet tomorrow at 9:30 a.m. (): asked Honourable House would permit, therefore I am a bit concerned the Minister of Environment, I would move that this House with that Clause because we are ADJOURNMENT Wildlife and Tourism to state:- accordingly adjourn for today so not certain as to when the Clause The meeting adjourned at 15:43 that Honourable Members have (i) when a camp will be p.m. until Thursday 31st January, ample time to go and draft their will be amended. I thank you Mr built for the Department 2013 at 9.30 a.m. well thought resolution properly. Chairman. of Wildlife and National If it is possible, you could group st Parks in Kachikau since MR CHAIRMAN: Let me Thursday 31 January, 2013 yourselves and draft together they have been allocated a because that is permissible. clarify this first Kgosi, I heard THE HOUSE met at 9.30 a.m. plot in the area dating back Then after that, you submit them you talking about amendment so that we could debate them of the Customary Courts Act (THE CHAIRMAN in the to 1980; and tomorrow. as well, and therefore I am not Chair) sure as to whether you meant (ii) if any camp has been built P R A Y E R S Upon adjourning this House, the Customary Courts Act or the for this department through we would like to request the Bogosi Act. * * * * National Development 84 85 Thursday 31st January, 2013 Questions For Oral Answer Thursday 31st January, 2013 Questions For Oral Answer

Plan apart from donations MR CHAIRMAN: Can you MINISTER OF officer in charge’s discretion and by international donor kindly ask the Honourable ENVIRONMENT, WILDLIFE availability of resources. Thank agencies. Minister a question, you were AND TOURISM (HON T. you. just saying one place was left out KHAMA): Mr Chairman, the KGOSI BOIDITSWE: If it MINISTER OF without asking a question about Ministry does not have formal happens that the victim becomes ENVIRONMENT, WILDLIFE it. Ask him a supplementary assistance package for people incapacitated, does the Ministry AND TOURISM (HON T. question if there is any. injured by wildlife. However, the still provide such assistance to KHAMA): Mr Chairman, my Ministry does provide in kind, KGOSI MMUALEFHE: the victim and how far will they Ministry is aware of the plot assistance and support to families Thank you for that advice Mr go. Furthermore, is it proper at Kachikau allocated to the of victims of wildlife injuries and Chairman. When does the to say people who get injured Department of Wildlife and deaths as considered appropriate Honourable Minister intend to by wild animals would have National Parks. The plot is by the officer in charge of the develop Sedudu entrance gate in provoked them when in actual proposed for development during area where the incident occurred. Chobe? fact that person was just looking 2013/14 financial year funds Further to that where there for their livestock? Thank you permitting. Mr Chairman, the HONOURABLE T. KHAMA: are injuries, they are treated at Mr Chairman. latest infrastructure development Thank you, Mr Chairman. This Government health facilities. a new question altogether. Thank for the Department of Wildlife and My Ministry is considering this HONOURABLE T. KHAMA: National Parks was undertaken you. assistance to those injured by Thank you, Mr Chairman. As during the NDP 9. The project wildlife and has engaged other KGOSI MMUALEFHE: I have already explained, that entailed the construction of stakeholders to participate in Thank you Mr Chairman and programme is currently under staff accommodation, entrance formulating such a policy. Honourable Minister. consideration in the Ministry. gates, and water provision I thank you, Mr Chairman. MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, We are bound by the availability in Makgadikgadi/Nxai Pan Kgosi Mmualefhe. KGOSI MACHILIDZA: Thank of resources. As the Honourable National Park and Moremi Game you, Mr Chairman. I have heard Member was saying, we should ASSISTANCE GIVEN TO Reserve. The infrastructure was the Minister saying that people formalise the procedure on PEOPLE INJURED BY handed over to the Ministry who are injured by these animals the kind of assistance we are WILD ANIMALS by the contractor in mid-2009. are assisted in kind. Does he extending to victims. As of now, The project was co-financed by KGOSI M. MMUALEFHE mean that the Department would we are constrained; we only and (CHOBE DISTRICT): asked take over burial arrangements for help based on the availability of these victims, and other expenses the European Union. I thank you. the Minister of Environment, resources. I thank you. Wildlife and Tourism to state:- connected to the death? Thank KGOSI MMUALEFHE: you, Mr Chairman. KGOSI LEMPADI: Is the (i) if there is any assistance According to the proposed Honourable Minister aware that given to people injured by HONOURABLE T. KHAMA: developments that the some of the people who sustain wild animals; and Thank you, Mr Chairman. The Honourable Minister outlined, Ministry provides assistance like injuries from these elephants the Sedudu entrance gate has (ii) if no such assistance is tents, firewood and transporting are very poor? Does he find it been left out, it needs a face lift. I available, will the Minister members of the families where helpful for them to assist with thank you Mr Chairman. explain the reason why. possible. This is subject to the tents only? 86 87 Thursday 31st January, 2013 Questions For Oral Answer Thursday 31st January, 2013 Questions For Oral Answer

HONOURABLE T. KHAMA: by lack of finances to put up breaks in Kgalagadi Region iii) Hukuntsi-Ngwatle-Ukhwi Thank you, Mr Chairman. I such a facility at this time. In the since it is plagued by constant iv) Ukhwi-Ncaang-Hunhukwe would like to repeat the answer meantime the Ministry has made fire outbreaks. that I said earlier on; we do not an arrangement to keep the bulk Monong-Lehututu. have a policy at the moment to of the trophies in Serowe where MINISTER OF My Ministry is promoting the assist victims the way we would there is adequate storage facility. ENVIRONMENT WILDLIFE establishment of community like to, that is why our assistance Thank you. AND TOURISM (MR based fire management is restricted. The policy that we KGOSI MACHILIDZA: KHAMA): Mr Chairman, my programmes so that communities are looking at is aimed at taking Thank you, Mr Chairman. Is Ministry does not consider it in the fire prone areas such as care of these concerns. I thank the Minister saying the animals’ necessary to increase the number Zutshwa, Ukhwi, Make, Ncaang you Mr Chairman. hides will be taken straight to of firebreaks in Kgalagadi region and Hunhukwe should form KGOSI MMUALEFHE: Serowe without being stored in due to the following reasons: community fire suppression Thank you Mr Chairman and Boteti office for a while? We still teams to combat wildfires in the Honourable Minister. have some hides, tyres and other 1. Currently there are seven area as they have been trained in things in the same office. It is not firebreaks in the district, fire fighting techniques. PROVISION OF healthy. which makes them sufficient Lastly, it should be noted that STOREROOM IN given the size of the district. FOR HONOURABLE KHAMA: fire breaks do not stop fires, but Thank you, Mr Chairman. STORAGE OF HIDES FROM 2. There are three major roads rather are used as anchor points WILDLIFE Kgosi is right; it is a concern that also serve as firebreaks, during resource mobilisation that the health of those workers names: and they only reduce fire spread. KGOSI O. S. MACHILIDZA is at risk. We try to move them My Ministry will continue (BOTETI REGION): asked immediately but our main i) Sekoma-Tshabong- training communities on basic the Minister of Environment, hindrance is transport. However, Bokspits fire management techniques to Wildlife and Tourism if he will we will take note of what Kgosi empower them to effectively ii) Kang-Hukuntsi consider providing a storeroom has said and we will do as he and efficiently manage wild land fires. in Letlhakane (Boteti) for storage suggested, where possible. iii) Sekoma-Kang-Gantsi of hides from wildlife killed by Thank you Mr Chairman. boundary farmers. Mr Chairman, I want to inform INCREMENT OF FIRE 3. In addition, there are several this Honourable House that MINISTER OF BREAKS IN KGALAGADI wide tracks in the sub district currently, we have sent some ENVIRONMENT, WILDLIFE REGION officers to Australia for training AND TOURISM (HON T. which also serve in reducing in fire fighting techniques. I am KHAMA): Mr Chairman, KGOSI D. S. TOTO II the spread of fires, namely: pleased to announce that the my Ministry acknowledges (KGALAGADI SOUTH REGION): asked the Minister i) Hukuntsi-Lehututu- Australians have welcomed these inadequate storage facilities Hunhukwe for hides and other by-products of Environment, Wildlife and two officers from our country to in Letlhakane. The Ministry is Tourism if he does not consider ii) Hukuntsi-Zutshwa- assist them in extinguishing their however currently constrained it necessary to increase fire Ngwatle fires as part of their experience. 88 89 Thursday 31st January, 2013 Questions For Oral Answer Thursday 31st January, 2013 Questions For Oral Answer

I just wanted to add that. I thank HONOURABLE T. S. water to the villages of Maun, up quickly due to evaporation you, Mr Chairman. KHAMA: Thank you Mr Boteti and surrounding areas as process during the dry season, Chairman. There is no Central well as the hence, drawing water from the KGOSI TOTO II: Thank you Kgalagadi Game Reserve Lodge through water reticulation system lagoon will not be a sustainable Mr Chairman. in our Department of Tourism from the lagoons of Xakanaxa option from the economic and files, it does not exist. Thank you and Guma. source reliability view point. For OWNERSHIP OF CENTRAL Mr Chairman. the reasons above, my Ministry KALAHARI GAME ACTING MINISTER OF has put in place plans to supply RESERVE LODGE AND KGOSI KAHIKO III: I was MINERALS, ENERGY the villages of Maun, Boteti IT’S BENEFIT TO THE asking about the nationality of AND WATER RESOURCES and surrounding areas as well COMMUNITY the license holders for hotels in (HON. TSHIRELETSO): Mr as the Kweneng District from KGOSI M. KAHIKO III Kgalagadi. Chairman, my Ministry has no the sources of water which are (GHANZI WEST): asked plans to draw water from the MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi deemed to be more sustainable, the Minister of Environment, Xakanaka and Guma Lagoons Kahiko, the question that I have cost effective with satisfactory Wildlife and Tourism to state; to supply domestic water to the here does not say that. environmental implications. The villages of Maun, Boteti and plans entail initiatives such as (i) the ownership of Central KGOSI KAHIKO III: I will surrounding areas as well as the the Maun Water and Sanitation Kalahari Game Reserve go and make a further enquiry Kweneng District mainly for Project, borehole development lodge; and about it from the officers who environmental and economic at / reasons. Drawing water from (ii) how the community has translated it. wellfields and connecting Xakanaka Lagoon will entail benefitted from this lodge. Molepolole to the North South MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you traversing through Moremi Carrier. Thank you Mr Chairman. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Kgosi Kahiko. Honourable Game Reserve which poses Murmurs! Members have long been given serious environmental hazards. KGOSI MMUALEFHE: I this Notice Paper so that they The Moremi Game Reserve is thank you Mr Chairman. These MINISTER OF can go through the questions and a RAMSAR site and Botswana, lagoons are perennial and I am ENVIRONMENT, WILDLIFE motions to check if they have as a signatory to the RAMSAR just wondering why it is said AND TOURISM (HON T. S. been translated correctly. Convention, has an obligation to they easily dry up. KHAMA): Mr Chairman, I am protect this game reserve. SUPPLY OF DOMESTIC MR CHAIRMAN: I did not under attack by other Honourable WATER TO SOME The Guma lagoon gets its inflows quite get you Kgosi Mmualefhe. Ministers, I seek your protection. VILLAGES THROUGH THE through Tlhaoge River which is presently facing blockage KGOSI MMUALEFHE: MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI WATER RETICULATION SYSTEM challenges thus making it an Thank you Honourable Minister. GABORONE): Honourable unreliable source of water. My According to our knowledge, Ministers please do not disturb KGOSI M. MMUALEFHE Ministry, through the Department Xakanaka and Guma lagoons are Honourable Tshekedi Khama (CHOBE DISTRICT): asked of Water Affairs, has been perennial and they can never dry when he is responding to the Minister of Minerals, Energy monitoring these lagoons over up even if they were to supply the questions. You can only address and Water Resources whether he the years and their observations aforementioned places. As the me if there is need. will consider supplying domestic show that Guma lagoon dries issue of negative environmental 90 91 Thursday 31st January, 2013 Questions For Oral Answer Thursday 31st January, 2013 Questions For Oral Answer impact has now surfaced, I give ACTING MINISTER OF ACTING MINISTER OF inexperience. The plan to replace up because there is nothing MINERALS, ENERGY MINERALS, ENERGY AND the old pipes with the new ones backing… AND WATER RESOURCES WATER RESOURCES (HON is already on the pipeline but we (HON TSHIRELETSO): TSHIRELETSO): The staff are very much aware that while MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi Mr Chairman, Government employed by Water Utilities we wait for this whole process, Mmualefhe, now you are out of has already adopted pro-poor Corporation (WUC) was directly the water is getting wasted. I procedure. measures to make water tariffs employed from Department of thank you Mr Chairman. affordable for the poor. In this Water Affairs (DWA) and Local KGOSI MMUALEFHE: endeavor Government has not Authorities. Effort was made Thank you Mr Chairman. KGOSI MASUNGA: Thank increased tariff for the first block to retain them in areas they you Mr Chairman. I would like to MR CHAIRMAN: I am not of consumption, that is 0 – 5000 are familiar with. However, establish the time frame that the sure as to whether you are asking litres per month, Value Added Mr Chairman, where there is Water Utilities has set for itself a supplementary question or you Tax has also been removed from evidence of loss of institutional the same consumption block. memory regarding infrastructure to harmonize whatever processes are just informing the Honourable Therefore, the need for any and other assets locations, the from the councils to align to their Minister about your knowledge further subsidy does not arise Corporation engages some vision? on the lagoons. I gave you the at this juncture. Thank you Mr Craftsmen from Councils on floor to ask a supplementary Chairman. temporary basis. Thank you Mr HONOURABLE question. Nonetheless, you have Chairman. TSHIRELETSO: This is a new KGOSI MOSEKI: Thank you already thanked the Honourable question Mr Chairman, which is Honourable Minister, I will Minister, so thank you very KGOSI NDZONGA: I am not relevant to this one, because really appreciate if this will be talking about something that much. the initial one was asking if there implemented. I see regularly, we have water will be any consideration to SUBSIDISING WATER leakages almost everywhere. I ENGAGING TEMPORARY TARIFFS FOR PEOPLE would like to find out from the engage craftsmen in the village CRAFTSMEN IN VILLAGES UNDER THE POVERTY Honourable Minister how they to assist the new ones. I am not in ERADICATION are dealing with these persistent a position to state the time frame KGOSI T. NDZONGA PROGRAMME leakages. Are the leakages not they have set for themselves (TUTUME REGION): asked caused by these old pipes which because I will need to go and KGOSI J. MOSEKI (GHANZI the Minister of Minerals, Energy have been installed way back? do a research. I am well aware EAST REGION): asked the and Water Resources if he will of the process, but I cannot state Minister of Minerals, Energy and consider engaging temporary HONOURABLE right now how long it will take Water Resources whether he will craftsmen (pipe fitters from TSHIRELETSO: What Kgosi to complete it more so that I am consider subsidizing water tariffs council) in villages to guide Ndzonga has just said is indeed here on behalf of the responsible for people under the poverty newly employed staff of Water true and it is a common problem Minister. eradication programme who own Utilities Corporation who seem all over the country. Some of backyard gardens as they end up not to be familiar with waterlines the pipes were installed long KGOSI NDZONGA: Thank you failing to pay their water bills in the villages when it comes to time back that is why they leak; Mr Chairman and Honourable resulting in disconnections. maintenance of leaking pipes. it has nothing to do with their Minister. 92 93 Thursday 31st January, 2013 Questions For Oral Answer Thursday 31st January, 2013 Questions For Oral Answer

COST OF PROVIDING operations, WUC was made a water bowser will continue units the BHC has planned to WATER TO SHADISHADI aware that the borehole that until the proposed project is construct in Molepolole. The VILLAGE THROUGH was supplying Shadishadi with implemented. Thank you Mr current water shortage for BROWSERS water was contaminated in July Chairman. Molepolole is about 1400m3 per 2011 and that Kweneng District day and with these additional KGOSI GAREBAKWENA Council has been supplying the KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: housing units, the water shortage (MOLEPOLOLE REGION): village with water by bowsing Thank you Mr Chairman and in the village will be worsened. asked the Minister of Minerals, Honourable Minister, may I since August 2011. WUC Currently, Water Utilities Energy and Water Resources to continued using Bowser to request that this be done without any delays. Corporation is undertaking state: supply Shadishadi village with a project for connecting about 50m3 per day against a 6 additional boreholes in (i) the cost of providing water demand of about 42m3 per day. PROVISION OF WATER TO Malwelwe/Botlhapatlou to Shadishadi village The cost related to bowsing THE SITE ALLOCATED wellfield to provide additional through bowsers since operations since the takeover TO BHC BY KWENENG water supply to Molepolole. October 2011 to date; by WUC is estimated at about DISTRICT COUNCIL The estimated duration of P224,000. Supplying Shadishadi KGOSI GAREBAKWENA (ii) whether drilling a new from borehole water supply is project implementation is 10 borehole and or connecting (MOLEPOLOLE REGION): months and therefore, expected a cheaper option than bowsing asked the Minister of Minerals, Shadishadi village to in the long term. WUC has completion date is December, Boatlaname or Energy and Water Resources 2013. However, considering the investigated the possibilities of if he will consider providing villages would not be a connecting Shadishadi village precarious water supply situation cheaper option; and water to the site allocated to in Molepolole and the looming to a new water source and has Botswana Housing Corporation identified one borehole within drought situation, it will not be (iii) what measures will he put by Kweneng District Council in possible to avail water for BHC the vicinity of Shadishadi in place to address water order for BHC to proceed with to construct the 300 housing units village. According to the records shortage in Shadishadi building of residential houses to in Molepolole. I believe you are village. available on this borehole the alleviate current accommodation informed that my Ministry has water is suitable for human shortage in the village instituted water restrictions ACTING MINISTER OF consumption and production is particularly for public officers. effective 1st November 2012 as MINERALS, ENERGY adequate to supply the village. an interim measure to limit water AND WATER RESOURCES ACTING MINISTER OF consumption. Thank you Mr (HON TSHIRELETSO): Mr The borehole equipping and MINERALS, ENERGY Chairman. Chairman, through Water Sector connection project has been AND WATER RESOURCES Reforms, the Water Utilities proposed for 2013/14 financial (HON TSHIRELETSO): Mr KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: Corporation (WUC) took over year budget. This is a cheaper Chairman, I am aware of the Thank you Mr Chairman. Is the from Kweneng District Council and more reliable option when land pocket allocated to BHC Honourable Minister saying after the operations of Water Supply compared with connecting and its inability to proceed with connection of these six boreholes to Shadishadi village on the Shadishadi village to Boatlaname construction as currently there is at Malwelwe that is when there 2nd of May 2012. During the and or Sojwe villages. Water inadequate water supply to meet will be a consideration to connect handing over of water supply supply to the village through the demand of the 300 housing water to this place? 94 95 Thursday 31st January, 2013 Questions For Oral Answer Thursday 31st January, 2013 Questions For Oral Answer

HONOURABLE standard connection charges to people can now afford to connect Sometimes it takes a very long TSHIRELETSO: That is be P1 500 for a connection up to water because five meters charge time to refill those tanks, anyway exactly what I said Kgosi. 50 metres. Due to poor network was expensive. In a nut shell, it let us move on. I am certain planning this assisted many has been increased by 45 metres. that it is not everyone who falls INCREMENT OF WATER customers to make connections within the 50 metres. Those CONNECTION FEES as the fee helped to subsidise KGOSI KAHIKO III: Is the who fall outside the 50 metre Honourable Minister aware KGOSI M. KAHIKO III customers who could not afford bracket have to pay extra money. cost based connections beyond that it was difficult for people It is expensive for Batswana. (GHANZI WEST REGION): to connect water when it was five metres. I thank you Mr Thank you Mr Chairman and asked the Minister of Minerals, cheap? Now that it is expensive Chairman. Honourable Minister. Energy and Water Resources they will not be able to do it, why Water Utilities Corporation more especially in rural areas. ACTION TAKEN has increased water connection KGOSI MACHILIDZA: We are encouraging Batswana to REGARDING WATER fees when it was a challenge for Thank you Mr Chairman. engage in backyard gardening, SHORTAGE IN people to pay the old fees which Thank you Honourable Minister will they afford the charges. I KGALAGADI SOUTH were lower. for the response. Does the am asking this because this is the REGION Honourable Minister not see ACTING MINISTER OF problem that we are faced with the five meter standards as a KGOSI D. S. TOTO II MINERALS, ENERGY AND in my region. I thank you Mr challenge, especially considering (KGALAGADI SOUTH WATER RESOURCES (HON Chairman. REGION): asked the Minister TSHIRELETSO): Thank that facilities like electricity HONOURABLE of Minerals, Energy and Water you Mr Chairman. During the connection were subsidised? Will TSHIRELETSO: Maybe Resources to explain what action Water Sector Reforms it was they consider setting standards Kgosi did not understand; it was has been taken regarding water observed that there was marginal that will afford everyone a expensive before. Fifty metres is shortage in the Kgalagadi South difference between the standard chance to be able to connect long. With regards to backyard Region. connection fees charged by Water water to their homes? If he sees gardening, I think Kgosi was not Utilities Corporation (WUC) and it necessary, when does he intend well briefed. The Government ACTING MINISTER OF that charged by Department of to come up with those standards has taken upon herself to provide MINERALS, ENERGY AND Water Affairs (DWA). However since this has been a concern? stand pipes and storage tanks for WATER RESOURCES (HON. the standard connection fee the beneficiaries of the program; TSHIRELETSO): Thank you at WUC was applicable if HONOURABLE it is part of the package. If there Mr Chairman. My Ministry the connection is within five TSHIRELETSO: I do not are people who still experience has commissioned a study on metres from a service pipeline. know if Kgosi did not hear my some problems in this program, the Water Master Plan for the Anything beyond five metres had response when I said that the they should be handed to my Kgalagadi Southern Region a cost based connection which Standard fee was revised in April Ministry. owing to severe water shortage in was higher than standard charge. 2012. The five meters charge was the area. The master plan together Water Utilities Corporation a bit more expensive because it KGOSI KAHIKO III: I with its recommendation will (WUC) charged P900 while was P900 for WUC and P849 for understand but in my region they be completed end of February DWA charged P849. In April DWA. As of now it is P1500 for are only provided with water 2013. Construction of the cross 2012, Government revised the 50 meters, which means a lot of storage tanks with no stand pipes. border pipeline connection 96 97 Thursday 31st January, 2013 Questions For Oral Answer Thursday 31st January, 2013 Questions For Oral Answer will commence in February KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH KGOSI MASUNGA: Thank to requests and also take into 2013 and is expected to take 9 EAST DISTRICT): asked the you Mr Chairman. How will consideration that both their jobs months. As part of bilateral cross Minister for Presidential Affairs the Government be able to are available in the concerned border agreement, my Ministry and Public Administration to identify and meet the needs of place. I do have the needs of my is currently in negotiation with state:- its employees if the employer employees at heart. I thank you. South African Government to has not documented information make connection for 5 million (i) the number of married MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you. about their conditions, including cubic metres per annum to supply persons within the public KGOSI MASUNGA: I do Middlepits and adjacent villages. service; marital life? I thank you Mr not believe there is anything As part of the emergency Chairman. (ii) the number to this date private about an employer, more strategies, the Department of living with their spouses; HONOURABLE especially an important aspect Water Affairs is currently drilling and TSHIRELETSO: I have like a family. Living in different some boreholes in the Bokspits already stated in my response places by married couples may area. Thank you Mr Chairman. (iii) what the implications of transfers are to the stability that family lives of employees contribute to the social ills which KGOSI D. S. TOTO II: Thank of the family. have always been considered are on the rise in our country. you Mr Chairman. I heard the private, and hence Government Does the Minister not consider Honourable Minister saying that ACTING MINISTER does not keep track of spouses this to be one of the contributing adjacent villages will be supplied FOR PRESIDENTIAL living together. We only consider factors? They should raise their AFFAIRS AND PUBLIC with water. Does the Honourable cases where spouses make children together, it will be ADMINISTRATION (HON requests to be transferred to cheaper and more convenient. I Minister not see it fit for that TSHIRELETSO): Thank places where their spouses are. thank you Mr Chairman. pipe to be moved to the outskirts you Mr Chairman. The current If the question sought to ask the of Tsabong, considering the fact figures of married employees in number of spouses who have HONOURABLE that it is a growing village which the Public Service is estimated to requested to stay together, then, TSHIRELETSO: There are has an acute shortage of water? be round 10 145. Mr Chairman, I would be in position to answer. several factors which contribute to those social ills. Some of them HONOURABLE family lives of employees have However, if it seeks to ask the may be due to staying separately TSHIRELETSO: Thank you Mr always been considered private, number of spouses not living of married couples. In some Chairman. Indeed it is true that and hence Government has together, then it is invading their instances, some couples apply Tsabong might face challenges not been tracking the extent to privacy because this will entail for jobs that are in places which in the near future. The plan that which spouses live together. Mr us requesting the Directorate are far from their partners, they Local Government has is for the Chairman, transfers are primarily of Public Service Management do that with the full knowledge villages surrounding Tsabong. done to meet the exigencies of (DPSM) to compile data on that there is a possibility of Other arrangements will be made the service. However, where married couples staying together. relocation. It is their sole for Tsabong but for now, it is not it is practically possible to It might happen that some couples responsibility to requests for a part of the plan. ensure that spouses are not prefer not to stay together for separated, consideration can be reasons best known to them. We transfer. There are really so many NUMBER OF MARRIED made to have them within the were avoiding instances where it situational complications in PEOPLE WITHIN THE same locality. I thank you Mr will appear like we are intruding relationships and we cannot say PUBLIC SERVICE Chairman. their privacy. We only respond with certainty that they are the 98 99 Thursday 31st January, 2013 Questions For Oral Answer Thursday 31st January, 2013 Questions For Oral Answer main cause of these social ills. We (i) the criteria used in the business acumen, integrity to be appointed. The Minister cannot say they are caused by the appointment of members and high level of ethics and would then choose from the working class only. If we were to of parastatal boards by good governance. list of candidates that qualify conduct a research to establish Ministers; and for the positions. This provides the number of those who have d) The number of boards the transparency in the selection of (ii) whether the corporate divorced due to transfers, you candidate is serving. members of boards. I thank you, will find that they are few. Maybe governance principles Mr Chairman. e) A member should serve for even Kgosi is aware of that too. and the code of ethics are a maximum of 2 terms in the We are experiencing more social enforced to bring about KGOSI MASUNGA: Thank same board. ill like passion killings and the desired outcome and you Mr Chairman. Looking at the parastatals today in Botswana, divorces of late, even by couples controls. f) The performance and from your own perspective who stay together. At times those accountability of the board ACTING MINISTER Honourable Minister, will you who stay separately are far much member. better than those living together FOR PRESIDENTIAL say they have done well beyond because maybe they get to AFFAIRS AND PUBLIC The Privatisation Policy for expectation? Have they really miss each other. Thank you Mr ADMINISTRATION (HON Botswana of 2000 provides conformed to the standards that Chairman. TSHIRELETSO): Thank for performance monitoring you have already stated? I thank you, Mr Chairman. Boards of of parastatals by the Public you Mr Chairman. KGOSI MASUNGA: Thank parastatals by nature require Enterprise Evaluation and HONOURABLE you Mr Chairman. I do not certain skills and competencies Privatisation Agency (PEEPA). TSHIRELETSO: I trust PEEPA agree with what the Honourable to provide strategic leadership to This includes the performance and my opinion is that they Minister is saying. I have just the organisation. For example, a of boards. In this connection, have over 100 per cent on their tabled a motion that requested board may need skills such as law, boards of parastatals must performance. I thank you, Mr for an ‘Establishment of Family accountancy and human resource consist of members who have Chairman. Affairs Ministry’ which I believe management to facilitate its the necessary background, was responded to by Honourable operations. Therefore, the criteria competencies and motivation KGOSI MASUNGA: There is Masimolole. Mr Chairman, it used in the appointment of board to accept accountability for the a certain perspective the same is high time we had a policy on members include among others, delivery of agreed targets with faces are sitting in different family. I thank you. the following: government. boards. We have trained many Batswana with different a) The skills mix needed in the Government mandated PEEPA CRITERIA USED TO educational backgrounds from organization (Parastatal). to ensure that corporate APPOINT MEMBERS OF different universities across the governance, principles and code PARASTATALS BOARD BY b) The knowledge and world, would the Minister say of ethics are enforced in the MINISTERS experience held by an the criterion that she has been selection of members of boards. individual relevant to the talking about is serving the KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH PEEPA would call for expression sector in which the parastatal intended purpose? EAST DISTRICT): asked the is operating. of interest from members of the Minister for Presidential Affairs public to apply for positions From my perspective I think this and Public Administration to c) Competencies such as in boards and advise Ministers can affect the level of quality and explain:- strategic leadership, on the candidates that qualify performance on boards. Do you 100 101 Thursday 31st January, 2013 Questions For Oral Answer Thursday 31st January, 2013 Questions For Oral Answer think the selection criteria which MINISTER OF LANDS (ii) whether the houses will KGOSI MACHILIDZA: end up putting the same faces in AND HOUSING (HON still be offered at the initial Thank you Mr Chairman and the parastatals will work for us MOKALAKE): Thank you market price. the Honourable Minister for going forward? I thank you. Mr Chairman. My Ministry has the response. Is the Honourable no plans to move the forestry MINISTER OF LANDS Minister saying that the HONOURABLE boundary further from Kachikau AND HOUSING (HON entire construction was done TSHIRELETSO: If it were to village because such a need MOKALAKE): First, let me without considering sewerage be done that way, then it will not has not been submitted for my correct that the actual number of connection? benefit Batswana in any way. consideration. Mr Chairman, the houses constructed at Phakalane What I can say is that we look procedure is that if there is a need to expand boundaries of villages is 516 houses not 560. The HONOURABLE at the number boards a person adjacent to forest reserves, delay in finding a solution to the MOKALAKE: Indeed Mr. sits on. If Kgosi has observed District Leadership, (Bogosi occupancy of the 516 houses Chairman, it appears like that kind of situation, we will District Commissioner, District was caused by the fact that when these plots were sold by kindly request that he forward Council and Land Board) should there were some disagreements Phakalane, no research was it to us because it has not come submit a request to the Ministry carried out to establish whether of Environment, Wildlife and on the responsibilities for to our attention so far. Different the sewerage system capacity Departments submit names Tourism for consideration. It is sewerage connections between after MEWT has assessed and will be able to accommodate the proposed for parastatal board the BHC and the Water Utilities acceded to the request that my extra load. After the completion membership. The procedure is Corporation. An agreement in Ministry may facilitate the re- of the houses, it was evident that normal and fair but we shall principle has since been reached alignment of the boundaries. the sewerage system was under a appreciate it if Kgosi would between the Government of Thank you. strain. This called for more pipes. help us with ideas. If this was Botswana and Phakalane Estates Water Utilities could not connect a motion, he would be able to OCCUPATION OF (Pty) Ltd to share the cost of clean water because there were state the parastatals or the board BOTSWANA HOUSING upgrading infrastructure at no proper channels for the members that are regular. I thank CORPORATION HOUSES Phakalane to enable connection disposal of dirty water, the drains you Mr Chairman. AT PHAKALANE of portable water and disposal would overflow, causing some MOVEMENT OF THE KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH of waste water to the properties. pollution to the environment. I FORESTRY BOUNDARIES EAST DISTRICT): asked the Mr Chairman all the 516 houses thank you. FURTHER FROM Minister of Lands and Housing have been offered for sale to KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH KACHIKAU VILLAGE to explain the delay in finding prospective purchasers. Mr a solution to the occupancy EAST DISTRICT): I am Chairman all the houses expect KGOSI M MMUALEFHE of about five hundred and satisfied with the Honourable (CHOBE DISTRICT): asked sixty (560) Botswana Housing four, have already been paid for, Minister’s response. I thank you the Minister of Lands and Housing Corporation (BHC) houses at either as full payment or deposit. Mr Chairman. if he will consider moving the Phakalane:- The remaining four houses will MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you forestry boundaries further from be sold at current market prices to the village of Kachikau as they (i) how many houses have Kgosi Masunga. With that we the new prospective purchasers. I are now impacting on the land been offered for sale so far; have come to the end of today’s allocations. and thank you. business on questions. 102 103 Thursday 31st January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Thursday 31st January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Resolution (Resumed debate) Resolution (Resumed debate) RESOLUTION and we are on the third stage of in which they were submitted. open to Honourable Members the Bill, resolution. We will be to comment on that amendment CUSTOMARY COURTS We have tried to combine similar guided by Clause 39 (6) which drafts, so if it happens that others which states that Court President (AMENDMENT) BILL, talks about the resolution and be included at Higher Customary 2012 (NO. 21 OF 2012) are mistakenly left behind, how we should go about the Honourable Members shall alert Court. I believe Honourable (Resumed debate) whole process. It reads, “When the House about that. We shall Members have not forgotten consideration of a resolution start from the beginning so that our previous discussions. Some MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable of the Ntlo ya Dikgosi on a we can go clause by clause as Members were of the opinion that Members, when we adjourned Bill is taken, any Member may it will not be proper to have Court yesterday, we were done with the we look at the drafts that have bring a draft resolution on the been submitted by Honourable President at a Lower Customary second reading of the Customary Court; rather they should be at Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 Bill for the consideration of the Members. As I have already said Ntlo ya Dikgosi and the draft earlier, the first page, B.186 is an Higher Customary Court. Then (No. 21 of 2012). We are on the Deputy Court President will third reading of the Bill, which is shall be entered in full on the arrangement of Sections only. minutes of proceedings of the remain at Lower Customary the Resolution stage. According Then there is an explanation Court. Are we maintaining that it to our Rules of Procedure, Ntlo ya Dikgosi. When all such of the type of Bill we are should be passed as a resolution every Member is allowed to drafts have been brought up, the discussing. Page 141 has title and of this House? submit their draft resolution. Chairperson shall move the drafts commencement. Clause 2 talks Yesterday Honourable Members in order until one is accepted as a about Amendment of Section KGOSI MACHILIDZA were supposed to go and draft basis for discussion, beginning 2 of CAP 04/05. Honourable the resolution and submit for (BOTETI REGION): Thank with his or her own draft and Members, under definitions, there you Mr Chairman. Indeed consideration by this House. proceeding with the remainder are drafts that were submitted Honourable members, we are what you have just said is a in the order in which they were by Members. We have drafts true record. Moemela Kgosi yo only left with two minutes before brought up. The motion to be from Kgosi Toto II and Kgosi tea break, I will request that we mogolwane should be included moved by the Chairperson on the Seeletso. I will just summarise at the Higher Customary Court break for tea now; we will come draft resolution shall be that the them; they state that Moemela back at 11:00 a.m. We are left because this position is superior Chairperson’s or so and so’s draft Kgosi yo mogolwane should be to Moemela Kgosi. Then with only one minute now and resolution be read Paragraph included in the hierarchy, even I believe Honourable Members Moemela Kgosi should be at by Paragraph. Once any such though it does not specify which the Lower Customary Court, have granted me the permission question has been agreed to, hierarchy. Another one states to break for tea, we shall meet at but Court President should be no motion shall be moved in that Court Presidents should be kept at Higher Customary Court. 11:00 a.m. respect of further drafts but included at Higher Customary It was just fine the way it was portions thereof may be offered PROCEEDINGS Court. This means that Higher suggested, but I wanted to amend SUSPENDED FOR as amendments to the draft under Customary Court is presided consideration if they are relevant the one with… REFRESHMENTS over by Kgosi, Mothusa Kgosi, to it.” MR CHAIRMAN: Good or Moemela Kgosi. Another draft MR CHAIRMAN: Before we morning once again Honourable Honourable Members have resolution proposes that Court adopt that resolution, I would Members and welcome back. We submitted their drafts and we President should be included like us to bear in mind what shall proceed with our business shall discuss them in the order in that hierarchy. The floor is the Legal Counsel has said in 104 105 Thursday 31st January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Thursday 31st January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Resolution (Resumed debate) Resolution (Resumed debate) relation to Moemela Kgosi. a Higher Customary Court as Still on the resolution for Clause we are trying to correct. We are In our respective Customary proposed by some Honourable 2, there is one that says “Moemela amending a law which has things Courts, I think Moemela Kgosi Members. Do we all agree to Kgosi be dropped to the lower that need to be amended, should varies; there are Senior Chief that? customary court definition”. we just incorporate amendments Representatives and Chief Honourable members should without amending what is on the KGOSI KAHIKO III Representatives. However, the take into consideration the Act first? What will be the use of (GHANZI WEST REGION): way I understand Bogosi Act, reasons they had to back up this it then to bring this Bill here for Thank you Mr Chairman, I agree there is really no difference draft resolution, is it something consideration if we are to take with the proposal that Court between Moemela Kgosi yo we are agreeing on or not? everything as it is from Bogosi President should be included Mogolwane and Moemela Kgosi. Act? This is the opportunity to at Customary Court. I am just I believe our Legal Counsel KGOSI BOIDITSWE amend whatever that needs to be wondering which criterion we will help us to understand the (SEROWE REGION): I did amended so that anything that used to move those who are in implication of moving Moemela not quite understand you Mr is not in line will be corrected. the Lower Customary Court Kgosi to a Lower Customary Chairman, can we state our As I have already said, we to a Higher Court. I believe Court, because obviously that reasons for supporting or not have Kgosana, Moemela Kgosi, you can only do that based on would even include Moemela supporting a draft resolution? and then Moemela Kgosi yo their jurisdiction. Deputy Court Kgosi yo mogolwane. Do In my opinion, Moemela Kgosi Mogolwane. It would be better President has the same powers we understand Honourable is very close to Kgosi, they are for the Lower Customary Court like Moemela Kgosi. If Moemela almost on the same rank, so for to have Moemela Kgosi and Members? In the Bogosi Act, Kgosi is to remain at the Lower Moemela Kgosi to be dropped to Kgosana. Other Honourable there is no distinction between Customary Court, there will be an a lower level is a bit confusing. Members were of the view that Moemela Kgosi yo Mogolwane imbalance. Therefore Moemela They should rather be kept on the there will be too much work at and Moemela Kgosi yo Monnye, Kgosi should be moved together same level. I thank you. a lower level for Headmen. Mr they are all referred to as with Court President then at Chairman, will it be possible Moemela Kgosi. Lower Customary Court we will KGOSI MACHILIDZA to amend this law while we are have Kgosana only. I thank you. (BOTETI REGION): Mr considering this Bill or do we Chairman, we are a bit confused, KGOSI SEEMEKO MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable just continue with it the way it is? kindly advise us because (SPECIALLY ELECTED): Members, let us bear in mind positions vary according to Thank you Mr Chairman. It is that we got the chance to debate on the First Reading and Second regions. Maybe we need to MR CHAIRMAN: I had thought indeed true, the two cannot be Reading of the Bill. If we failed identify them according to that when Honourable Members separated because the Act does to debate at those stages, we regions. Our understanding were debating on Monday, not separate them, it only has cannot afford to debate at this of the hierarchy is that there Tuesday and Wednesday, they Moemela Kgosi. I propose that stage because no one is in a should be Kgosi Kgolo, Deputy understood what they were we leave it as it is but Court position to respond to that. The Chief and then Senior Chief as talking about and that they President should be included. resolution here is that Court you have indicated. It is a bit remember it. I do not want to Presidents be included at Higher confusing now if they are not mention any names but some Customary Courts? MR CHAIRMAN: Court included in the Act and it is not Members have indicated that it President should be included at Question put and agreed to. our fault. It is basically what will not be possible to drop this 106 107 Thursday 31st January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Thursday 31st January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Resolution (Resumed debate) Resolution (Resumed debate) position to Lower Customary MR CHAIRMAN: May we in Customary Courts in townships. If this Honourable House is of the Court because Members took proceed with that resolution that idea that Customary Courts in townships should be dealt away with, into consideration the differences Moemela Kgosi be dropped to that is when we can be able to exclude them from the structure. If we have in our various regions. the lower court? Those who are continue to have Customary Courts in towns, then it will be impossible Now I am surprised because of the opinion say ‘aye’ and on to remove them, Mr Chairman. you did not support the motion the contrary ‘no’. that Moemela Kgosi should be KGOSI BOIDITSWE (SEROWE REGION): I support the motion should be dropped to a lower Question put and negated. that they should be removed. If a new township is established, I customary court. The reason was believe that its Bogosi should be structured by the Kgosikgolo of that MR CHAIRMAN: Still under that regions vary therefore it will region. That is why I am of the view that they should be removed from Clause 2 under definitions, not be possible to do that. I was the structure because we cannot identify them as part of us. These there is a resolution that reads, just reading out the submitted townships should be led by Dikgosi. “court presidents and deputy draft resolution. court presidents should be I do not believe what has been said earlier on that Paramount Chiefs KGOSI SEEMEKO removed from the customary cannot oversee Urban Customary Courts because now it appears like (SPECIALLY ELECTED): court structure.’’ The way it Dikgosi do not have a role to play in townships. That is why I am of is, they should have their own Thank you Mr Chairman. I the opinion that a new structure will be created for them. I thank you. structure. I believe it is the one do not agree with the draft that has led to names like Town KGOSI KGARI II (BAKWENA): Thank you Mr Chairman. As resolution. You have given a Clerk Officer, etcetera. Other Kgosi Kahiko has already stated, if we say they should be removed perfect and clear explanation and Honourable Members were of from the structure, then we should know that we will be doing away I believe the owner of the draft the view that Court Presidents with urban customary courts in towns like Gaborone and Francistown. was convinced after hearing why are not really Dikgosi. I want to If we go ahead and adopt Kgosi Boiditswe’s resolution, then who will we cannot drop the position to reiterate what we have said, and be in charge of Gaborone and Francistown? Does it mean we will have the Lower Court. Therefore, I do where your memories fail you, I a proper Kgosi for such places? Mr Chairman, let us think of it along not agree with it. will remind you so that we are not derailed. those lines. I thank you. KGOSI LEMPADI (OKAVANGO REGION): KGOSI KAHIKO III MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you Kgosi Kgari. That one will be much Mr Chairman, when we made (GHANZI WEST REGION): easier because the city is named after me. that proposal, we took into Mr Chairman, I am getting a bit HONOURABLE MEMBERS: laughter! consideration the fact that some uncomfortable. I disagree with of the appeals in the lower court the proposed draft resolution. We KGOSI SEKWENYANE (NGWAKETSE WEST REGION): I can be taken to the higher court. cannot remove them from the do not support Kgosi Boiditswe’s motion because Court Presidents If we are to take Moemela Kgosi to the lower court, then that will structure because the Customary have a role to play. Like Dikgosi; they preside over cases, arbitrate be an indication that we do not Court procedures differ from and administer corporal punishment, so why should we do away with understand what we are talking those of the Bogosi. Court them? They should be left in the structure and furthermore when about, Moemela Kgosi should be Presidents do not interfere with there is any law amendment, they also be covered. I thank you Mr at the higher court. the Bogosi Act. They play a role Chairman.

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MR CHAIRMAN: May we kindly be brief on this issue. The Kgosi Moremi ü resolution is that court presidents and deputy court presidents in urban Kgosi Moroka ü areas be removed from the customary courts structure. Honourable Members, let us vote. Those who are of the opinion say ‘aye, and on Kgosi Mosadi ü the contrary say ‘no’. Kgosi Moseki ü Kgosi Ndzonga ü Question put and House divided. Kgosi Potsoeng ü MR CHAIRMAN: The resolution states that court president, deputy Kgosi Gaborone ü court presidents be removed from the customary court structure. Those Kgosi Ramokone ü who support it will say yes and those who do not will say no. let us quickly call on Honourable Members so that we finish with Clause 2. Kgosi Ramokwena ü Kgosi Seeletso ü DIVISION OF THE HOUSE Kgosi Seemeko ü The House was divided as follows: Kgosi Sekwenyane ü Kgosi Sinvula ü MEMBER’S NAME AYE NO ABSTAIN ABSENT Kgosi Telekelo ü Kgosi Boiditswe ü Kgosi Toto ü Kgosi Esterhuizen ü Kgosi Tshipe ü Kgosi Gaoonwe ü Kgosi Xao ü Kgosi Garebakwena ü Kgosi Kahiko III ü MR CHAIRMAN: As we conclude on Clause 2; the ayes are 12, no’s Kgosi Kgamane ü 18; abstain 3, and 1 absent, which means those who do not support Kgosi Kgari ü this resolution which states that Court President and Deputy Court Kgosi Lempadi ü President be removed from the Customary Courts structure have won. Honourable Minister according to our Rules of Procedure, the Nos Kgosi Lotlamoreng II ü have it. Kgosi Machilidza ü Kgosi Malema ü Question put and negated. ü Kgosi Malope II Clause 3- Court Bailiff Kgosi Masunga ü Kgosi Mmualefhe ü There are a lot of drafts that were submitted on this one. One of them states that Court Bailiffs be given powers to arrest. The other ü Kgosi Moeti II one states that Court Bailiffs should perform duties like to carry out Kgosi Monnaathebe ü any other lawful duty as maybe assigned to him or her by a Kgosi, Kgosi Montshiwa ü Kgosana or Member. Honourable Members, what is your take on these aforementioned drafts? 110 111 Thursday 31st January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Thursday 31st January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Resolution (Resumed debate) Resolution (Resumed debate)

KGOSI TSHIPE: Mr KGOSI LEMPADI will they undergo any training? Now we have Court Bailiffs, so Chairman, I do not support this (OKAVANGO): Thank you Mr They might face aggressive let us not overwhelm them with draft resolution because we have Chairman. We have just been criminals so, they need to have more duties by giving them the already discussed that powers saying that the Court Bailiffs defence mechanisms. Some powers to arrest. This issue also to arrest have been given to will be performing the duties that of them were police officers involves human rights. The police officers. Court bailiffs were done by the Local Police. before, so are we going to train Botswana Police have been will be working like sheriffs at So, why are we refusing to give them again or they will use the vested with the power to address the magistrates and high court. them the powers to arrest because skills they acquired through the human rights complaints and I think their duty is to execute even Security Guards in shops previous training? Some of them other issues. We do not have the duties that were done by the have those powers to arrest? were Court Clerks; they know those in our department. If they Local Police in customary courts. nothing about how the police KGOSI KAHIKO III are given those powers, who I thank you Mr Chairman. operate. I can only support this (GANTSI WEST REGION): will be responsible for attending draft resolution if these officers MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you Mr Chairman, I share the same will undergo training before they complaints of violation of rights. Kgosi Tshipe. sentiments with Kgosi Moeti are given those powers. I thank Let us not go that far because and Kgosi Lempadi. Some of we have Police Officers in our KGOSI NDZONGA you. these issues are very critical. If a regions, we shall liaise with them (TUTUME REGION): Thank warrant of arrest has been issued KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH to address such issues. I thank you Mr Chairman. I do not and the person does not turn up, EAST): Mr Chairman, I do not you. support this resolution because there is need for Court Bailiffs support this resolution. I believe KGOSI SEEMEKO we recently removed the local to go and arrest that person. that when it comes to handling police from our structure and Therefore, they should be given (SPECIALLY ELECTED): criminal cases, we have the Thank you Mr Chairman. I share now it appears like we want to those powers, it will really ease Botswana Police. Civil matters the same sentiments with Kgosi re-establish them. the workload. When I look at are the ones handled by Court Masunga. Maybe Honourable the provisions on the Customary Bailiffs. All that we can do is KGOSI MOETI II Court Act, there is no clause Members must have been work around the provisions that confused by what I mentioned (SPECIALLY ELECTED): I which says police officers will are already there so that if a beg to differ with Honourable arrest on behalf of Customary yesterday when I said that person has failed to settle some Bailiffs need to be educated on Members, Mr Chairman. We Court, which means we are debts or any other offence, they the issues of law. I did not mean normally emphasize on being going to struggle to execute our will go for trial. The reason why that they should be given powers, given more powers as Dikgosi mandate. This is the right time the Local Police and Botswana they just need to understand what and by virtue of having Court to amend anything that needs to Police were merged was because the law says as they carry out Bailiffs given powers to arrest, be amended. We are not saying the Government was addressing their duties. Secondly, the police it will strengthen the Kgotla they should be given the powers service we have in this country is the issue of duplication of system. It will also save time that are beyond their jurisdiction. enough. Let us follow the same if the person to be arrested is I thank you. duties. I believe that even the route followed by the Sheriffs not cooperative. I support this Tribal Administration structure and the Bye-law officers, in that resolution. I thank you Mr KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Before has changed because the Local way, we will not be derailing in Chairman. they are given the powers to arrest, Police are no longer part of us. any way. Thank you. 112 113 Thursday 31st January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Thursday 31st January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Resolution (Resumed debate) Resolution (Resumed debate)

MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you KGOSI RAMOKWENA facilities where detainees can be duties like to carry out any other Kgosi Seemeko. I will give the (MAUN REGION): Thank you locked. Those who have facilities lawful duty as may be assigned to floor to three more Members Mr Chairman. In many instances, which can… (interruption) him or her by a Kgosi, Kgosana then we conclude the debates on when people are new on the or Member’. this clause. job, they sometimes go through KGOSI KAHIKO III: Arresting KGOSI KAHIKO III: I think orientation or training. I believe someone does not necessarily this is just a repetition because KGOSI MACHILIDZA Court Bailiffs will go through the mean that they will be taken to a ‘Member’ is defined as (BOTETI REGION): Thank same process because they may prison, but it is just a way of somebody who is presiding over you Mr Chairman. Maybe I not be well equipped with the showing them that they are under that customary court’. Therefore am going to repeat what other right skills in some of their core your confinement. Thank you. there is no need to include Honourable Members have duties like repossessing property. KGOSI MACHILIDZA: To ‘Kgosi or Kgosana’ whereas the already said. We as the leadership They are expected to follow arrest literally speaking does ‘Member’ is defined. Thank you have the responsibility to mould the lawful procedures when not mean walking side by side Mr Chairman. the nation towards achieving executing their duties. If they are tolerant behaviour not leading with the person but it means given the powers to arrest, then KGOSI SEKWENYANE: I through coercion. If offenders that person will be detained people will be cooperative when support this draft resolution are summoned to the Kgotla somewhere. It should have an dealing with them because they because Kgosi is always and they defy that, it means effect on the arrested person. will know that failure to do so overwhelmed by work so they they are undermining your will earn them an arrest. It would KGOSI RAMOKWENA: Let can send Court Bailiffs to authority as Kgosi. We do not be time consuming if they have me explain that before any project summon people to court. want a situation whereby people to go back to look for a police is undertaken, proper plans are are coerced to go to court; we KGOSI MACHILIDZA: I officer every time there has to outlined. If they are given those think I am the one who proposed want to do it peacefully. If that powers to arrest, I believe there be an arrest. Evidence may be that draft resolution. I do not offender does not comply, then will be a facility where those tempered with while the court think there is any duplication. they will be forcefully taken to people can be locked up and one bailiffs are still looking for police This does not affect anything, so court and that alone tarnishes of those facilities could be police officers; people may hide some the draft should be adopted as it someone’s image. Mr Chairman, cells. I thank you Mr Chairman. of their property which should be is. I thank you. I do not support the draft which repossessed. MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you. proposes that they should be MR CHAIRMAN: Do we Let us conclude this issue so that remember what was said when given powers to arrest. Rather KGOSI MACHILIDZA: we progress. The draft resolution this draft was debated. The Legal the nation should be sensitised On a point of clarification was that ‘Court Bailiffs be given Counsel advised that the word on the importance of honouring Mr Chairman. I would like powers like the power to arrest’. a summons. I thank you. to highlight something to the ‘Member’ has been defined Honourable Member without Question put and negated. under definitions and basically MR CHAIRMAN: I am going necessarily derailing him. When it means a presiding officer to give one more Member a people get arrested, they have to There is another draft resolution including Dikgosi. Furthermore, chance and I hope they will share be detained somewhere. In our still under Clause (3) which we were advised that this also a different opinion. villages, we do not have those reads, ‘Court Bailiff to perform includes Court Presidents and 114 115 Thursday 31st January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Thursday 31st January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Resolution (Resumed debate) Resolution (Resumed debate)

Deputy Court Presidents, not KGOSI MACHILIDZA: I am KGOSI MACHILIDZA: Thank ACTING PARLIAMENTARY Dikgosi only. I will read it again, a bit confused, Mr. Chairman. It you Mr Chairman. Since I am the COUNSEL (MS and then we vote on it. It reads, appears like we are moving on to mover of this, I am surprised by MOROLONG): Thank you Mr ‘Court Bailiff to perform duties the next clause, are we done with some of the issues raised here. Chairman. I was not actually looking at varying, I was like to carry out any other lawful Clause 4? I had a draft on 7 (2), I The Honourable Minister has do not understand how we could looking at establishing because duty as may be assigned to him a say on these things. There have skipped it. has been a development lately, sometimes if it is a lower court, or her by a Kgosi, Kgosana or it can be upgraded and be whereby Ministers go around Member’. MR CHAIRMAN: Okay, it established as a higher court. the country checking on people Upgrading and establishing go is because you did capture the and attending to their grievances. Question put and negated. numbers properly. We are on hand in hand. Even ‘vary’ it is Therefore, let us open the door still the same because it may Clause 4 (7) (2) which reads Clause 4-Establishment and so that as the Minister does mean upgrading. recognition of customary ‘The Minister may recognise, those rounds, he can be able to courts upgrade or establish a customary ask Kgosi about the grievances KGOSI MOETI II: Thank you court’. If you can look at Clause voiced by the community. I Mr Chairman. Kgosi Machilidza There is a draft which reads, (2) it reads ‘The Minister may by do not believe that will be out warrant under his hand, recognise is advocating for upgrading, ‘Every Kgosi may, after of line. This resolution should or establish such customary which is a good and important consultation with his tribe, just be passed because it is not thing to do. According to my courts as he thinks fit…’ Now like the Minister will upgrade understanding, these issues do submit for consideration of the Kgosi’s draft resolution has Minister recommendations for every customary court; we are not differ much. If we adopted included the word ‘upgrade’ the one at the top and disagreed recognition…’. I am reading it in just saying there should be so that it reads ‘The Minister with the subsequent one, which its original form. may by warrant under his hand an allowance. I thank you Mr states that the Minister may use recognise, upgrade or establish Chairman. his own discretion to upgrade KGOSI SEEMEKO: Thank a customary court as he thinks a Kgotla, then we will be you Mr Chairman. I support KGOSI KGARI II: Thank fit…’ I think that is what Kgosi contradicting ourselves. The first it because I take it that this is you Mr Chairman. I think what is saying. one states that Kgosi can submit what we agreed on in this very Kgosi is requesting for here is the recommendation to the House, if we negate it, it will be KGOSI LEMPADI: I do not already covered in subsection 3, Minister and still, the Minister something else. support it because the Minister because it states that the Minister has the final say. I think they has the power to vary a warrant are the same; we just have to KGOSI MONNAATHEBE: cannot upgrade a customary pass them as they are. The main and I think vary includes even to Thank you Mr Chairman. It is court he does not know. Kgosi question however is, does this fine; I do not have any problem is the overseer of that customary upgrade. I thank you. mean he can make that decision with it. court; he knows how it operates without the input of the Kgosi MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you and the community? Will this and its jurisdiction. He is the one Kgosi Kgari. Parliamentary Question put and agreed to. that should approve its upgrading also mean that the Kgotlana may Counsel, is it correct that to vary go straight to the Minister to ask Clause 5-suspension and together with his community, not the warrant includes even to for upgrading? I thank you Mr dismissal of members the Minister. upgrade Kgotla. Chairman. 116 117 Thursday 31st January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Thursday 31st January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Resolution (Resumed debate) Resolution (Resumed debate)

MR CHAIRMAN: Thank tribe or Kgosi dismiss or suspend says there has to be consultation and that where there is a morafe, you. Let us conclude this draft for any period he may deem fit. with the community. there should be consultation. submitted by Kgosi Machilidza I believe they are all stating that We shall amend it accordingly. MR CHAIRMAN: If we were which reads, ‘the Minister may there should be consultation Through the explanation of to amend it Kgosi, how will we recognise upgrade or establish with morafe. Let us start with consultation that we have under put it? customary court…’ We should the first one which states that Bogosi Act, do we agree that this take into consideration, the should be part of the drafts? ‘there should be consultation KGOSI MOETI II: My explanation that we have just question is, when we talk about been given about ‘varying’ and with morafe in accordance with Question put and agreed to. morafe, are we referring to ‘establishing’ as well as Kgosi’s Bogosi Act,’ I think it is under the community or the people Still under the same clause, there draft resolution. After all the section 9 of the Bogosi Act. you are serving? Maybe Kgosi is a draft that states that, ‘the explanations that we have been What is our take on this one? Lotlamoreng is referring to Minister may dismiss or suspend given, are we still saying Kgosi for some days, months or a Machilidza’s draft resolution KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Mr people who are there to serve should be adopted as it is or it Chairman, I support the one the community because they are year and the right to know and falls off? Those who are of the that states that there should the ones who can be consulted. fairness principle consultation should be made in the Kgotla opinion that it should be adopted be consultation with morafe, There should be clarity as to who we are referring to when we say with the concerned community.’ as it is, let us also bear in mind including Kgosi. Not for the that the resolution at the top is morafe; is it the people we are What is our take on this one? Minister to make a decision the same as the one proposed by serving or the tribe. If there is a Kgosi Machilidza. to dismiss Kgosi for example, tribe, then they are the ones to KGOSI MONNAATHEBE: without informing the elders. I consult. Thank you. Mr Chairman, some Question put and negated thank you. of the things may appear to be KGOSI KGARI II: Thank you new but in actual sense, this That means it falls off because KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II: Mr Chairman. Just to respond to has been the practice. It should it has already been covered by Mr Chairman, I agree with that Kgosi Moeti’s question, I believe be passed as it is because there others. We are moving on to, clause. However, I do not know when we talk about morafe, we is no Minister who can suspend Clause 5 which talks about how best we can put it because are basically referring to the without consulting with the suspension and dismissal of definition given under Bogosi community. The Minister does members. I believe there are some of the Members do not have Act that it is a tribal community. I that through the advice of the various drafts submitted on communities which they lead, like court of appeal. Maybe we take it that we cannot call people community, so there is really no this clause. One of them states in a city a tribal community. I should state that where there is a problem with this draft. that the Minister should do that thank you. after consultation with morafe community, consultation should MR CHAIRMAN: So if there in accordance with Bogosi Act. be done. Otherwise it might MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you. is no problem with it, what are I am just going to read them all end up putting the Minister in a Honourable Members may I saying Honourable Members, do before we can debate. One of the tight corner if he is to suspend a appeal to you that we proceed we pass it as it is to be part of our resolution? drafts states that ‘the Minister member of court of appeal. The with our debate. I think the gist may after consultation with the member may argue that the law of the matter here is consultation Question put and agreed to.

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I will quickly go through these KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II: the embarrassment that the wife or taking too long to pay, not ones. I believe that when we Mr Chairman, I beg to differ with will have to go through. I support because they cannot afford to debated yesterday, Honourable that draft. If we say that, it will what is being done at high court pay but just playing hard to members agreed that Clause 6 not help us to tackle the backlog and magistrate court. I thank you get. They never even show any to 10 should be adopted. That is of debts in our customary courts. Mr Chairman. sign of remorse or even care to what we agreed on, right? If that person has one item, it KGOSI MASUNGA: Thank update the plaintiff of why they HONOURABLE MEMBERS: should be attached without any you Mr Chairman. When we are not paying. I am of the view Yes. excuse. debated this clause, I indicated that we should continue with practice of impounding goods. MR CHAIRMAN: Clauses 6 to KGOSI RAMOKWENA: Mr that I can only support it if the I was only supporting the one 10 agreed to. Chairman, we have gone through defendant can do some labour that said labour could be used as this clause. It is even there in but that was not agreed to. When another means of paying. If there Clause 11-amendment of other higher courts. Some of the I look at it as it is now, I agree is nothing to attach, then there section 25 of the Act property has to be sold because with Kgosi Lotlamoreng. We are other means of ensuring that we have to cater for the plaintiff should note that the complainant Clause 11 which amended something is paid. I thank you. interests as well. It will not be and the defendant got into an Section 25, is about impounding fair to say items like clothes agreement which is guided by MR CHAIRMAN: Let us goods. There are various drafts cannot be auctioned. If that is the the rules of trade or exchange. conclude this draft resolution on this clause. One of them case, then people will opt to have I believe that anyone who gets that states that we should leave states that we should leave it as things that cannot be attached. I into that agreement is aware of it as it is. it is and that means all the listed thank you Mr Chairman. the implications. Nevertheless, goods should not be impounded. we are cognisant of the High Clause 11 negated. Another one states that court Court practice. The burning KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Just like That means, the House does not may impound other goods except question is, looking at what they other Members, I do not support agree to this draft resolution as it are doing at their level, will that clothes, blankets, food and the idea of taking everything that is. In other words, this draft is not benefit us as well because for drinks. The other draft states that the defendant has, Mr Chairman. accepted. Still under this clause, them they are making profit and we should benchmark from High We must bear in mind that in there is a draft that states that at the same time giving people Court and Magistrate Court. I most cases, men are the ones the court be permitted to attach what is due to them. I think it is think this one is referring to the who put their families in debts. I or sell, but with the exception going to be problematic for us in goods that can be attached. Let support the draft which proposed of working apparel of a person, Customary courts, Mr Chairman. us take one draft at a time. There that some items should be left for food and drinks. In other words, I do not support it as it is, I am of the defendant, for examples if he the court can attach some goods is another one that states that the view that when a customary has sofas, they should not all be except for clothes, food, blankets labour can be used as a form of court has passed judgement; it taken, instead if they are 3, 1 one and drinks. payment if they are fit for work. should be taken. Something must should ensure that the defendant The first draft states that we be left for the family because pays the complainant. We are KGOSI BOIDITSWE: We should leave this clause as it is. children and their mother already faced with a challenge should just leave it the way it is In other words, people’s property involved. If everything is to be of defendants failing to pay off because it will not be proper to should not be attached. attached, then one can imagine what they have been charged leave a person with absolutely 120 121 Thursday 31st January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Thursday 31st January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Resolution (Resumed debate) Resolution (Resumed debate) nothing to wear. I believe not all the essentials like food, clothes, here which states that we should KGOSI KAHIKO III: The things should be attached or sold. drinks and blankets should not set a limit, but Kgosi is asking problem is that the Bogosi be attached. This one however, why we should set a limit when hierarchy differs according to KGOSI SEEMEKO: I share the states that we should set a limit. we have already agreed that only regions. I wanted to clarity on same sentiments Mr Chairman. I how regions like ours are going thank you. In other words, it is suggesting clothes, food and blankets will that if there are two similar items be exempted. Do we adopt it as to be catered for when it comes to issues of appeal. For instance, MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you in a house, one should be taken part of our resolution or not? if Kgosi Xao may be in a Lower Kgosi Seemeko. This means and one left. Which means it Customary Court, so how are Honourable Members do agree Question put and negated. contradicts what we have just the cases from her court going to this draft which states that adopted. to be attended if there is no “the court be permitted to attach Yesterday Honourable Members Higher Customary Court in her or sell with exception apparel of indicated that Clauses 12 to 20 KGOSI POTSOENG: Thank region. Are we going to continue a person, food and drinks. should be passed as they are. For you Mr Chairman. We have operating in the same manner Question put and agreed to. already indicated that anything purposes of procedure, we have as we have been, whereby all can be attached except for to indicate that we agree to them, This draft has been agreed to. cases are referred straight to clothes, food, blankets and we can… Still under this clause, there is Customary Court of Appeal? If drinks; therefore we cannot go this can be clarified, then I will a draft which states that there against our words. We have to KGOSI KAHIKO III should be a limit or minimum not have any problem. bear in mind that this also affects (GHANZI WEST REGION): standard for the things to be the person who is owed. Even Under Clause 20, I submitted a MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable attached. It is related to the one though we feel pity for them, Minister, do you wish to clarify? that we have just passed, but draft which stated that Dikgosi some of these offenders do not be given the power to revise ASSISTANT MINISTER OF we should indicate whether we show any sign of remorse and cases. It falls under Sub-Section LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND adopt or negate it. they can even be bold enough RURAL DEVELOPMENT 2... KGOSI LOTLAMORENG: to pay back the money in small (HON TSHIRELETSO): Mr Chairman, the limit of things amounts so that that person MR CHAIRMAN: Wait a Thank you Mr Chairman. Maybe to be sold will be determined by minute Kgosi Kahiko, do we we can compare it with Section cannot use the money efficiently. 42 in its original form; those who adopt 12 to 19 as they are? the debt owed. If the defendant I am of the opinion that did not have Higher Customary has goods that amount to the everything should be sold and Question put and agreed to. Court referred cases straight to money owed, then they should only clothes, food and blankets Customary Court of Appeal. I be sold. Only the essentials will can be left out. That means Clauses 12-19 thank you. be exempted. are adopted as they are. Kgosi MR CHAIRMAN: I am a bit MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you Kahiko, you wanted to say confused. Kgosi Kahiko can you MR CHAIRMAN: I hope Kgosi Potsoeng. Let us proceed. something on Clause 20? kindly repeat your question? you have understood me very I will keep putting the question, KGOSI KAHIKO III: Yes. well. We have just adopted a clause by clause as per the rules. KGOSI KAHIKO III: It is clear resolution which states that only Now there is a draft resolution MR CHAIRMAN: Continue. now Mr Chairman. I thank you. 122 123 Thursday 31st January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Thursday 31st January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Resolution (Resumed debate) Resolution (Resumed debate)

MR CHAIRMAN: Under HONOURABLE be substituted with the word though it has been indicated Clause 20, you had indicated that TSHIRELETSO: I think we “shall” to make it compulsory that “he” is the most appropriate you submitted a draft, so are you amended that so that they can for Dikgosi to have access to the word to use. We are talking about saying you are fine, we should pass through the Higher Court? Customary Courts in their area a law that is in use but currently pass it? In a proper structure, after Lower of jurisdiction. I would like to we are amending it. Yesterday KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH Court, it goes to Higher Court remind Honourable Members one Honourable Member stated EAST REAGION): If I heard then Customary Court of Appeal. that yesterday as we debated the that we should follow the Bible Kgosi Kahiko very well, he resolution that talks about gender because it puts more emphasis wanted to know if other regions MR CHAIRMAN: Okay, neutrality; we were informed on the use of man in the general are going to pass appeals straight the clause that we are talking that the Interpretation Act does sense. The bible was written to Customary Court of Appeal. about is the very same one that not include “she”. This means without any sensitization of Kgosi Kahiko is better placed Honourable Members said we the status quo shall remain, but gender neutrality. Currently when to clarify this, but now he is must pass it as it is, so are we still I can see Honourable Members we look at the Chieftainship Act, leaving. If I am not mistaken saying that? have submitted this draft again. which we amended, you will find he was asking whether appeals It states that “he” or “she” should that it has “he” or “she.” So we Question put and agreed to. be included in the law to make it will be submitted directly to should amend this one too. I believe we are adopting Clause gender neutral. Let us discuss it. Customary Court of Appeal? 20 as it is. It is time for lunch. Over the years, we have MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you We shall suspend the proceeding KGOSI LEMPADI Kgosi Potsoeng. expressed our concern over the and come back at 2:30 p.m. to (OKAVANGO REGION): I fact that certain courts continue continue from where we left off. do not support it Mr Chairman. KGOSI RAMOKWENA to submit their appeals directly to The law is like a Bible, it does (MAUN REGION): Thank PROCEEDINGS Customary Court of Appeal. This not accommodate the use of the you Mr Chairman. We are SUSPENDED FOR LUNCH was not the proper procedure. word “she”. I thank you. just troubling ourselves over On many occasions, appeals MR CHAIRMAN: Good MR CHAIRMAN: I did not nothing, those who made this at Lower Customary Court are afternoon once again Honourable get you well Kgosi Lempadi, law were very much aware that passed directly to Customary Members. I believe we shall be we have just had our lunch, so there is a “she”. The “he” refers Court of Appeal instead of a able to finish what we are doing. kindly speak with more energy to all human kind. This is not a higher customary court. The If my memory serves me well, so that I can hear you. loophole that women may use in appeal’s court just processes we were on Clause 21. Under this court trials to argue that the law them. I always wondered if they clause, one of the drafts states KGOSI LEMPADI: I said I do refers to men only. The fact that realised that it was an omission. that we should include him/her not support this draft because only “he” has been used does not I would love to hear from the for gender neutrality. In other “she” is not included in the law imply that women are inferior. Honourable Minister’s response words, where “he” appears alone, just like in the Bible. Thank you, Mr Chairman. why the Customary Court of we should include “her” to make Appeal cannot let this appeals it gender neutral. The second KGOSI POTSOENG (NGAMI MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, go through Higher Customary draft, still under clause 21, states REGION): I am of the view that After Kgosi Garebakwena we Court. I thank you. that the word “may” should ‘she’ should be included even will be voting. 124 125 Thursday 31st January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Thursday 31st January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Resolution (Resumed debate) Resolution (Resumed debate)

KGOSI GAREBAKWENA KGOSI BOIDITSWE Question put and agreed to. Customary Court of Appeal are (MOLEPOLOLE REGION): (SEROWE REGION): Mr too many. If fines and charges are Clause 25-power of customary Thank you Mr Chairman. I Chairman, “may” is a polite increased, then a lot of them will court of review as of course propose that we leave it as it is word but “shall” is coercive. I not have to go for review. Thank think we should just stick to the because we have already been We have a draft that was you Mr Chairman. word “may”. I thank you. advised by the Legal Counsel as submitted by one Honourable to why it has been written like KGOSI TELEKELO Member and it states that the MR CHAIRMAN: There is that. I do not understand on what (MOSHUPA REGION): Thank P200.00 fine and imprisonment, another draft under this Clause grounds we would be rejecting you Mr Chairman. I share the under 45(1) should be increased. that states that we should increase the term of imprisonment to a that advice. same view with other Honourable The term of imprisonment should Members that we should leave be a term exceeding 12 months term exceeding 12 months and MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you it as it is because it allows for and the fine should be more increase the fine to P1,000.00. Kgosi Garebakwena. The draft Do we support it Honourable flexibility. If it compels, we will than P1, 000.00. So far we have states that where “he” appears, Members? The other one states we should include “her” to make be putting some Dikgosi in an three drafts. The first one states unfavourable situation because that we should increase the fine it gender neutral. What is our that fines should be increased there will be a lot to do as their to P300.00 and imprisonment conclusion on that one? from P200.00 to P300.00, regions are vast. I thank you. should be nine months. Question put and negated. imprisonment to 9 months. The MR CHAIRMAN: In that case, second one states that the term LEARNED This means we do not support the draft which reads, “shall”, of imprisonment should be PARLIAMENTARY this draft resolution. Still under should be used instead of “may” increased to a term exceeding COUNSEL: Thank you, Mr Clause 21, there is another draft 12 months and increase the fine Chairman. This Provision has that states that maybe the word shall be voted for. Those who are of the opinion say “aye” and on to P1, 000.00. Then the last to be considered alongside “may” ought to be replaced with Section 16; Enforcement of the contrary say “no’. one states that the fine should “shall”, to make it compulsory Specified Laws, which states be increased to P300.00 and for Dikgosi to have access to the Question put and agreed to. that customary court will control imprisonment to nine months. customary courts in their area of some sections under Branding jurisdiction. That means we shall leave Clause 21 as it is. KGOSI TSHIPE of Cattle Act and Matimela. If KGOSI SEEMEKO (MAHALAPYE REGION): we increase the fines which will Clause 22-customary court of determine the cases which can be (SPECIALLY ELECTED): Thank you Mr Chairman. I Thank you Mr Chairman. I think appeal escalated to the court of appeal support the one that says the the word “may” is fine because it for review, this may disadvantage If my memory serves me well, term of imprisonment should be accommodates flexibility. If we the cases for Branding of Cattle say “shall” it will be compelling, Members agreed that we should 12 months and fine increased to and Matimela. Their fines when in actual fact, it should leave Clauses 22, 23 and 24 as P1, 000.00. The reason why I am normally range from P200 and allow individuals to do that when they are. If that is the case, those saying this is because we have an imprisonment of six months. circumstances permit. We should who are of the opinion say “aye” already pointed out that the cases If we say P1, 000.00 and may be just leave it as it is. I thank you. and on the contrary say “no”. that are sent for review at the an imprisonment of 12 months, 126 127 Thursday 31st January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Thursday 31st January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Resolution (Resumed debate) Resolution (Resumed debate) others will be excluded. I do not is still the same as not changing Increase of imprisonment term to they should just be passed as they know if you follow what I am the initial fine which is P200.00. exceed 12 months; increase the are. I believe that Honourable saying. I thank you. fine to exceed P1, 000.00. Members have…

MR CHAIRMAN: Currently MR CHAIRMAN: Do we KGOSI MACHILIDZA KGOSI MACHILIDZA: how much do those ones charge? all understand Honourable (BOTETI REGION): I beg Before we pass that one Mr Members that when we say your pardon, Mr Chairman; I Chairman, Honourable Members LEARNED “not exceeding”, then it will was not aware that you have have been talking about the word PARLIAMENTARY cover other cases, but if we skipped the one that we have ‘shall’ but it is used in the lower COUNSEL: Under Branding say “exceeding”, it is a totally been talking about; the one for court instead of ‘may’ like in and Matimela there is P200.00 different thing. P200.00. I am of the opinion that section 46(1), why is that the and 6 months. If we increase we should leave it as it is. We case? the fines, we will be restricting KGOSI LEMPADI cannot amend all Laws at a go, the cases from Customary Court (OKAVANGO REGION): I do MR CHAIRMAN: I thought when time permits; we shall go which can be taken for review at understand you Mr Chairman. yesterday we had tried to back to them and amend them. the Customary Court of Appeal. We were looking at the fact that explain why it is like that under Unless the Customary Courts these fines have been increased Clause 26. When you look at the Act can only be amended once. I MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you from P100.00 to P500.00. The explanation that has been given for that advice. Honourable thank you Mr Chairman. reason why we are increasing under this clause, you will realise Members we have heard that if we increase the fines and these fines is so that we reduce MR CHAIRMAN: Let us that it is lawfully appropriate to sentences, we will be restricting the number of cases that are conclude on this one. It states use it because there is no how the cases which can go for appeal. being submitted at court of that “Increase the term of a lower court can defy a higher How do we move forward, do we appeal for review. imprisonment to exceeding court order. On that note, we have adopt it alongside other drafts 12 months, increase the fine come to the end of the resolution that have been submitted under MR CHAIRMAN: I see where exceeding P1,000.00”. Those stage. I believe we were guided the Customary Courts Act? you are coming from Honourable who are of the opinion say “aye” by Rule 39 which allows us to KGOSI SEEMEKO: On a point Members. What are we saying and on the contrary say “no”. go draft by draft and paragraph of clarification, Mr Chairman. now, should we increase or not? by paragraph at the same time Can the Parliamentary Counsel It has been suggested that we Question put and negated. adopting and negating some of clarify whether using the term increase; however, there has them. I believe we have fulfilled Still under 25, there is a draft “not exceeding”, will still be been some advice from the Legal Rule 39.7 under Ntlo Ya Dikgosi which is different from these restricting the Matimela cases? Counsel that if we increase, we Rules of Procedure. At this will cut off some of the cases. others, it says that “should be juncture, I will allow Honourable LEARNED Maybe we should look at the dealt away with as it does not Members who may feel they PARLIAMENTARY original clause and the proposed serve any purpose it delays want to make some additions, COUNSEL: Thank you. In the draft resolution and then we can processes”. Who submitted to do so. Rule 39(8) states that submitted drafts, the word that vote based on that but at the this draft? It looks like nobody ‘when all paragraphs of the draft has been used is “exceeding” not same time taking into account owns it. Moving on to 26, 27, resolution have been disposed “not exceeding”. Not exceeding the advice that has been given. 28; Members have indicated that of in this way, any Member may 128 129 Thursday 31st January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Thursday 31st January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Resolution (Resumed debate) Resolution (Resumed debate) move without notice to add any Court Presidents should not MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Sefhophe and Mmadinare. new paragraph to the draft.’ be addressed as Dikgosi, but I believe Kgosi Boiditswe has Kgosikgolo will be tasked as Township Court Officers or been answered and we are not with arranging the leadership KGOSI BOIDITSWE: I have Presiding Officers. going to include this as part of our of that township based on how submitted some drafts, but they resolution drafts. Another draft well they know the history of KGOSI LOTLAMORENG have never been read, I do not submitted by Kgosi Boiditswe; that region. Furthermore, that II: Mr Chairman, I understand understand what could have he suggested that all townships individual should be a member what Kgosi Boiditswe is saying, happened. should be the responsibility of of the township council because but I would like us to note that Kgosikgolo of that region as they there is a lot that happens MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi definition of Court President is are better placed in knowing the without the knowledge of Kgosi; Boiditswe, if you have some not under Customary Courts Act, history of that area. Let us bear they only get to know during addition which we may have but rather Bogosi Act. In actual in mind that this morning, as we implementation. This is solely omitted, please indicate. fact, it is not even defined in were drawing the line between because they are not involved Bogosi Act. Maybe it is only us KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Yes. higher and lower customary in anything and they cannot who define them as Dikgosi when Maybe before I do that Mr courts, there was a question question anyone. They should they are not lawfully defined like Chairman, I do not understand about how this will affect cities also be offered accommodation that. The point that I am trying to whether I should say it is an like Gaborone and Francistown. like Mayor so that when they drive home is that the definition addition because I had submitted The main question was who will attend meetings in that township, of Kgosi is not under Customary the draft. Where is it? be chosen as Kgosi Kgolo of that that’s dignity. One Honourable Court Act, but rather Bogosi Act. city. MR CHAIRMAN: I was saying Member said the leadership of MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you. you should advise us on what KGOSI BOIDITSWE: That existing towns should be left as Kgosi Boiditswe has submitted a we ought to do because some issue is straight forward Mr is, which means the upcoming draft, let us discuss it. Those who of the drafts were similar so Chairman. One Honourable towns will be the ones which support that Court Presidents they were grouped together. Let Member commented about will be planned for. It is not should be called Township like I have a something against me cite an example from one of Gaborone. I do not know Court Officers, but this is Court Presidents, I do recognise your submitted drafts, it states where the boundaries between not mentioned in this bill, so them but it is not proper to have that corporal punishment should Kweneng and Tlokweng are, but purposes of concluding… them wrongly placed. It is as if include doctor’s approval before I think that Gaborone is part of Dikgosi do not have the ability to it is administered. The advice KGOSI BOIDITSWE: I Tlokweng, so Bogosi for this lead in a town. concerning this was that there think I will agree with what the area will be arrange for Dikgosi are laws that guide how corporal Honourable Member has said. in Gaborone. I fail to understand MR CHAIRMAN: Just for your punishment ought to be done. If they are not referred to as why it is impossible for Kgosi own information, Tlokweng That means we shall deal with Dikgosi, then we made a blunder to be in charge of a township boundaries are well defined under that when we talk about corporal to refer to them as such. They because they will understand the Tribal Territories Act and I punishment. That is why we did are actually referred to as Court their tribes much better. For am not in charge of Gaborone. not include it because it affects Presidents. Maybe it is upon us example, in Ngwato Region, It used to belong to us back then another regulation here. There to correct this with the public. I there is Selibe Phikwe, but is but they took it away from us is another one that states that thank you. much nearer to Bobirwa region, and remained with our name. 130 131 Thursday 31st January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Thursday 31st January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Resolution (Resumed debate) Resolution (Resumed debate)

In any case, we know very well I am not saying it is like that, I MR CHAIRMAN: I have seen we were to include them on this where our boundary is; it is from am just assuming. As we are it but I tried to leave it out due Act, they will not appear under Notwane River up to Kgatleng all aware, we know that when to some reasons, however we the Bogosi Act. and South African border and applying for Omang, people may look at it. It reads thus, ‘it go back to their regions to seek Ramotswa. Let us get into Kgosi is recommended that a lower I will now go over the drafts Boiditswe’s draft which states assistance from their Dikgosi, customary court as interpreted Court President cannot write that have been agreed to by that all the townships that are confirmation letter affirming that by Section 2 be restructured to this Honourable House. They coming up should be under the they know the applicant because include Headmen of Arbitration’. are as follows, Clause 2 states leadership of Kgosi Kgolo of they do not know them at all. I would like to remind this that ‘Court Presidents should that region. I think this issue is Thank you Mr Chairman. Honourable House that the other be included under the definition dealing with establishment of day I was reading something of a higher customary court’. villages and townships, at the MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you. in the books of law that stated Clause 4 states that ‘Every Kgosi May we kindly conclude this? same time, it looks like it is not that, ‘the provisions of this Act may, after consultation with his Those who are of the opinion say shall not extend to informal part of the customary courts act. tribe, submit for consideration “aye” and on the contrary say proceedings of an arbitral nature of Minister’s recommendation KGOSI POTSOENG: Thank “no”. before a body not established or for recognition of a customary you Mr Chairman. Even though Question put and agreed to. recognised as a customary court court’. Then Clause 5 states that, this is Kgosi Boiditswe’s under this Act constituted under ‘There should be consultation proposal, I would like to make I believe we are done with Kgosi customary law where such body with morafe in accordance him aware that where there is a Boiditswe’s drafts. On that note, does not purport to exercise any with Bogosi Act’ just as is the township, a council is bound to be if we do not have any other power to enforce its decisions or case in Section 9, when there established. These days we have resolutions we have finished… compel attendance before it’. We is a dismissal and suspension are saying in other courts we can of dikgosi. Then Clause 6, 7, places like Sua Town and they KGOSI TELEKELO: Thank summon people and they will be 8, 9, and 10 will be left as they have their own council. you Mr Chairman. I stand to be compelled to attend court while are. Then in Clause 11 (5) (a), also has its own council. All corrected, but I think we have in arbitration courts, that is not (b), (c), (d) and (e) it states these places were initially under forgotten the draft resolution the case. That is why we were that ‘The Court be permitted to Central District. The way I see it, which proposed that lower saying our Customary Court attach or sell with the exception when a township is established, customary courts should fall Act needs to be reviewed when of wearing apparel of a person, it means there will be some part under Customary Court Act. The it comes to order of precedence. food and drinks’. Then Clause of land that will be taken from reason why I added it is because This can be considered under the 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 tribal land and that land will they were established through a Bogosi Act, where Headmen of and 20 are left as they are. The become state land. May be that minute. The same procedure that Arbitration will be given certain same goes for Clause 21, 22, 23, is why it becomes difficult for is followed during installation powers. That is when we can be 24. This is what the Honourable a Kgosi to be a leader in such of a Kgosi is the one that is able to amend this Act. That is a place, only Court President followed. They are approved by House has agreed on as we were will be appropriate to be there the Minister and right now some why I left it out. I am not sure going through resolution stage. because there we have different courts which I will not outline about this, but the Parliamentary I believe they have captured tribes living in the same area. here… Counsel will advise me; even if everything that has transpired

132 133 Thursday 31st January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Thursday 31st January, 2013 Customary Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Bill, 2012 (No. 21 of 2012) Resolution (Resumed debate) Resolution (Resumed debate) in this meeting the Customary the National Assembly’. They The Chairman’s job was made glad Mr Chairman made it clear Courts (Amendment) Bill. shall be written down in their easier because the debates went that we are compelled to amend it correct order where the secretary on very well. I came here on in the Act first. This is something The Rules of Procedure state shall sign and submit them to behalf of the Minister as he that I will have to consult with that, ‘When consideration of the relevant authorities. At this was on another official call, the Attorney General. If we a draft resolution paragraph juncture, if there is anything that nevertheless I shall ensure that do not amend it, it will be like by paragraph is concluded and the honourable Minister would I give him proper feedback. we are still stuck with the old when all motions relating to new like to say, I will give her the Yesterday I updated him and practice but we have graduated paragraphs have been disposed opportunity to do so. even told him that we are with from that. We will still be doing of, the Chairperson shall put Mr Seboko who is the Director the old practice that only men the question that the drafts be of Tribal Administration and are allowed in the Kgotla, like in the resolution of the Ntlo ya MINISTER OF LOCAL Dikgosi.’ We have gone through GOVERNMENT AND can attest that indeed everything GaMmangwato, they used to say draft by draft, paragraph by RURAL DEVELOPMENT went smoothly. When I say the all men are wanted at the Kgotla, paragraph, commented, agreed (HON TSHIRELETSO): debated went on very well, I do no women allowed. We should to and negated some. We have Thank you Mr Chairman, not mean that Members agreed be at par with the latest practices with everything put before them. because very soon, it will not completed that stage and now Deputy Chairman, Honourable we are saying the drafts that have They debated eloquently without only be “our Father who art in Members, Honourable derailing from the main issue. heave” but also “our mother who been read shall be passed as a Minister, public officers and resolution of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi. That is why I spoke with a lower art in heaven”. the Media. I would like to take tone today, which is not always Question put and agreed to. this opportunity to express my the case. I had to follow the Thank you Mr Chairman, for sincere gratitude for the job precedence set by Honourable giving me this opportunity and I think the Ayes have it, the Ayes well done. Indeed the debates of members. I would also like to congratulate have it. This is the resolution this bill were very efficient and you for the job well done. You th of Ntlo ya Dikgosi in this 11 productive, we have noted the In conclusion, there is another have indeed done your research nd Meeting of the 2 Ntlo ya advices that have been expressed issue which is still a bit and you had your facts straight. Dikgosi under the Customary and we shall take proper action. disturbing but we agreed with You seasoned yourself very well Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2012 Some amendments will call the Parliamentary Counsel (PC) with this bill so much that you did (No. 21 of 2012). We have agreed for consultations with the law that if we insert he/she, it will not need to open it for referral. I to it. Honourable Minister, this makers before the second reading interfere with the law and it have really learnt a lot from you resolution shall be captured in of the bill in Parliament. In would have required us to go back Mr Chairman. Thank you once the official blue paper which thanking this Honourable House, to square one. We will however, again Honourable Members is guided by the Rule 39(10) I would like to single out our keep looking at it. In the Bible, which states that, ‘The Secretary Parliamentary Counsel (PC) for Naomi was addressed as ‘she,’ MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you shall forward a copy of every a job well done. She was able to but I heard Honourable Members very much Honourable Minister. such resolution certified under assist us in every way possible. yesterday talking about mankind. I would also like to thank you his or her hand and the hand She was well prepared and Laying political influence aside, for the attendance throughout of the Chairperson as a true displayed a clear understanding women in this Bible that we read this week and even the officers copy thereof, to the Clerk of of the House procedures. are addressed as ‘she.’ So I am that accompanied you. I think it

134 135 Thursday 31st January, 2013 Review of Protocol on the Friday 1st February, 2013 Questions For Oral answer Order of Precedence - Motion MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi Honourable Members. I believe was empirical for us to properly not I can have a chance to table Masunga’s request is that you slept well after attending complete the assignment that the motion or see what to do to through the advice that he yesterday’s event. I would also we started. I did not take well ensure that they are addressed. received from the research unit, like to take this time to greet there are some things that need the fact that when you came to That is my request Mr Chairman. Honourable Minister and officers respond to Minerals, Energy further research. He shall come here with us this morning. This is back with the motion when he and Water Resources questions, MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you. is done with that. I believe the the last day of the 10th Meeting you were active and your voice Kgosi Garebakwena wishes of the 2nd Ntlo Ya Dikgosi. I to defer this motion as he has Minister is happy that Kgosi is clear as compared to when you going to do a thorough research believe we shall try by all means received information about the responding to the issues for before presenting the motion. to finish today’s business. Local Government. I take it that motion he has tabled. If he is you were just doing it on their not satisfied with the findings, Motion-Deferred QUESTIONS FOR he shall table the motion again. ORAL ANSWER behalf, you shall go back your MR CHAIRMAN: We have original Ministry. On that note, Since he is the mover of the come to the end of today’s MOVING GATEKEEPERS we have come to the end of the motion requesting to defer it, I afternoon business. We shall TO THE PICKETS ALONG Customary Court Amendment believe Honourable Members meet tomorrow at 9:30a.m as THE ZIMBABWEAN Bill. We shall therefore continue shall agree to that. usual. I will request Honourable BORDER with the House business. Motion -Deferred Members to remain seated; I KGOSI T. B. NDZONGA REVIEW OF SETTING UP OF shall come back here so that (TUTUME REGION): asked PROTOCOL ON DIGITAL COMPUTER we make the arrangements for the Minister of Agriculture if he THE ORDER OF LABORATORIES today’s activity. This House is PRECEDENCE ACROSS GOVERNMENT now adjourned until tomorrow. will consider moving gatekeepers from Kwadiba, and Motion SECONDARY SCHOOLS ADJOURNMENT Senete gates to the pickets along Motion MR CHAIRMAN: I believe the The House accordingly our border with Zimbabwe for responsible Minister is here to KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH adjourned at 3:22 p.m. until patrolling and mending the fence st respond to the motion. EAST REGION): Thank you Friday the 1 of February 2013 at in case it gets damaged by wild Mr Chairman. I have met with 9:30 a.m. animals. KGOSI GAREBAKWENA the research department and Friday 1st February, 2013 (MOLEPOLOLE REGION): through their advice, there are ACTING MINISTER OF THE HOUSE met at 9.30 a.m. Thank you Mr Chairman. I some aspects which need further AGRICULTURE (HON TSHIRELETSO): Good have received information that clarity. Honourable Minister, I (THE CHAIRMAN in the morning Mr Chairman. I would there has been an amendment would like to be given a chance Chair) to go and do a bit of research like to start off by apologising on concerning the list for national on the cost implications and the P R A Y E R S behalf of Minister of Agriculture order of precedence. I would like needs assessment. I have already * * * * who could not make it to this to go and find out for myself if designed a form and I will just be Honourable House because he indeed my concerns have been left with presentation. That is my MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI attending a Cabinet retreat, I will addressed so that if they are request Mr Chairman. GABORONE): Good morning stand in for him. I was supposed 136 137 Friday 1st February, 2013 Questions For Oral answer Friday 1st February, 2013 Questions For Oral answer to attend the retreat too but but I did not ask this question, I am the Minister not find it disturbing KGOSI T. B. NDZONGA could not because I had to be raising a concern because this is for the fence to be broken every (TUTUME REGION): asked here. Mr Chairman, I am aware going too far. I thank you. now and then such that our cattle the Minister of Agriculture if he that disease control gatekeepers cross over to the other side? We is aware:- are becoming redundant as more KGOSI NDZONGA: Thank have the same situation in our of our areas like zone 4a and 3c you Mr Chairman. I wanted to region. Our cattle are killed (i) that many cattle in Nkange are converted to green zones and applaud Kgosi Boiditswe for and we are given a mere P400 and have that it will be of benefit if they bringing up that issue... yet we look after our them, it crossed the border into are relocated to other areas. In is the Ministry that is failing. Zimbabwe; and if so, this regard, the Ministry has MR CHAIRMAN: When does the Minister intend to (ii) will he allow the farmers adopted a holistic approach of Supplementary question! May remedy the situation? rationalising staff and deploying you kindly ask a supplemetary to sell the cattle to them to areas where they are question if you have one? HONOURABLE Zimbabweans as they are needed most including the TSHIRELETSO: I would like willing to offer better prices disease control fence along the KGOSI NDZONGA: Is the to urge Honourable Members rather than the P400 per common border with Zimbabwe. Minister aware of this situation beast paid by Government Due to the seasonal flooding to really take part in dealing at Maitengwe, Changate and after destroying them. of the Makgadikgadi Pans, Dagwi? Is she aware that the with this situation. I know that the requests for funds to gatekeepers at Kwadiba gates fence is down and that our cattle ACTING MINISTER OF will be removed permanently cross over every now and then repair this fence have been AGRICULTURE (HON and deployed somewhere else. and they end up being killed on submitted to those departments TSHIRELETSO): Mr Gatekeepers at Dukwi and the other side? that work with the Ministry of Senete cannot be removed as Chairman, I am aware that Local Government and Rural Botswana cattle do cross into the two areas are prone to Foot HONOURABLE and Mouth Disease outbreaks. I TSHIRELETSO: Thank you Development and the Ministry Zimbabwe in all areas along thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman. I am very much Agriculture. Where possible, the Botswana/Zimbabwe border aware of that situation and even the community should mend the including areas like Nkange KGOSI BOIDITSWE my response to the question damaged fence so that our cattle and Maitengwe. This usually (SEROWE REGION confirms that. We all in the will not cross over. I thank you. happens after the cordon fence REGION): Mr Chairman, I Executive and we have been along the border is destroyed by do not have anything against briefed about this issue, even KGOSI NDZONGA: Thank the marauding elephants in the Honourable Tshireletso acting the Minister briefed me this you Mr Chairman. Before I thank area. Mr Chairman, we will not on behalf of the responsible morning. We even said that there the Minister, I would like to urge allow cattle that inadvertently Minister, but I think it would is a need for those people to be her to take immediate action on cross the border fence to be sold be advantageous to have the redeployed to Kwadiba because this situation. I thank you. in Zimbabwe, as this would not Minister in person. Some of it is a delta. the issues of Agriculture need CROSSING OF CATTLE only be illegal but could be an to be addressed by him. We KGOSI LEMPADI IN NKANGE AND incentive for illegal cross-border experienced the same thing in (OKAVANGO REGION): MAITENGWE INTO movement of cattle. I thank you the previous sitting. Even though Thank you Mr Chairman. Does ZIMBABWE Mr Chairman. 138 139 Friday 1st February, 2013 Questions For Oral answer Friday 1st February, 2013 Questions For Oral answer

KGOSI MACHILIDZA HONOURABLE implements were bought under three mechanics to Chobe (BOTETI REGION): Thank TSHIRELETSO: The Integrated Support Programme West to maintain and service you Mr Chairman. Is the difference is that the other one is for Arable Agriculture ISPAAD tractors. I thank you Mr Honourable Minister aware stolen and sold illegally and the Development (ISPAAD) and Chairman. that cattle in Ngamiland, where other one crosses over illegally distributed equally to fifteen KGOSI SEKWENYANE there isfoot and mouth disease, and cannot be sold because it Agricultural Service Centres to are sold in Zimbabwe. Since facilitate adoption of appropriate (NGWAKETSE WEST will be illegal to do so. we have matimela system here technologies through mechanized REGION): In our region, in Botswana, is it possible to KGOSI NDZONGA: Thank you farming. Parakarungu was especially in Mosi, Sedibeng establish the same system in Mr Chairman and Honourable identified as one of the fifteen and Phitshane-Molopo, you will Zimbabwe so that the cattle Minister. Agricultural Service Centres and find that we do a lot in farming which cross the border can be has been allocated four tractors SHORTAGE OF TRACTORS but there is a serious shortage of sold to Zimbabweans. and associated implements. tractors. When farmers request IN CHOBE WEST AREA Four tractors per Agricultural for tractors, they are never HONOURABLE Service Centres are not enough KGOSI M. SINVULA available, even when they try TSHIRELETSO: Mr Chairman to cover all farmers within the (SPECIALLY ELECTED): at Mmathethe. One can never ,the question that has just been surrounding areas. However, asked the Minister of Agriculture understand how tractors are asked about consideration to the Government has no plans if he is aware that: distributed because we wonder sell stray cattle in Zimbabwe is to increase her fleet of ISPAAD if they are distributed taking into new. Nevertheless, I shall note (i) Chobe West area is still tractors due to the current experiencing shortage of consideration the places where it for the Honourable Minister. economic downturn. In this tractors; and regard, Government encourages farming is prevalent or not. I This may call for construction private tractors owners to plough/ thank you. of kraals where these cattle will (ii) Government tractors are plant for farmers to supplement be kept while they await selling. always without drivers ISPAAD tractors. MR CHAIRMAN: Ask the If we are to sell them whenever and not fit to plough due to Honourable Minister a question. they cross the border, then in mechanical faults. Government does not have permanent operators designated KGOSI SEKWENYANA: a way we will be encouraging Honourable Minister, what those who want to sell to drive ACTING MINISTER OF for ISPAAD tractors. However, AGRICULTURE (HON temporary drivers are recruited criterion do you use to distribute their cattle to cross the border so TSHIRELETSO): Mr in November of every year to tractors at your Ministry? Thank that they can be sold. I thank you. Chairman, my Ministry is aware facilitate ploughing and planting. you. KGOSI NDZONGA: Thank that there is shortage of tractors Shortage of tractor operators MR CHAIRMAN: Now, that is in Chobe West. However, this in the open market is a limiting you Mr Chairman. I want to ask a question. problem is not just confined factor. My Ministry is also aware the Honourable Minister if there to Chobe District. There is of the frequent breakdown of the HONOURABLE is any difference between the generally shortage of tractors ISPAAD tractors which results TSHIRELETSO: Thank you cattle that have been stolen and and associated implements in in low output. In order to reduce Mr Chairman. Farming issues sold and cattle that cross over to Botswana. To this end, sixty downtime, an arrangement are quite difficult to deal with. the other side but cannot be sold? (60) tractors and associated was made with CTO to deploy As I have already mentioned, 140 141 Friday 1st February, 2013 Questions For Oral answer Friday 1st February, 2013 Questions For Oral answer we have 60 tractors only but let HONOURABLE Development Bank (NDB) out of this, we should find other us note we used to have nothing TSHIRELETSO: There is no and Citizen Entrepreneurial means so that we can produce to at all. Half a loaf is better than plan. We have already bought Development Agency (CEDA) get profit. The money that should no bread. If there are four of them and I said half a loaf is offering loans to farmers to buy go to private tractor owners now them in a service centre, there better than no bread. Even though tractors and ISPAAD is helping goes to the Government. I thank has to be an agreement on the Integrated Support Programme farmers to plough; are we still you. schedule by the farmers. There for Arable Agricultural saying Government should still is farming everywhere in the Development (ISPAAD) is continue buying tractors? This MR CHAIRMAN: I would there, we encourage independent like to give Kgosi Sinvula the country, we have just heard will be a sign of a dependency tractor owners to assist despite syndrome because now people floor because this question was Chobe region complaining about unsatisfactory payments. We are believe that Government should specifically for Chobe West area. the same issue, they have been considering increasing the fee as be responsible for everything. allocated four out of this 60. We they are saying that the money I had thought that when people KGOSI SINVULA: Thank are pleading with the farmers they are paid is very little to were complaining that places you Mr Chairman. I heard the to assist us. Farmers are seem service their tractors. like Mosi need Government’s Honourable Minister saying reluctant to assist us because support, they will come up that there were mechanics who KGOSI MACHILIDZA they are not content with the with some initiatives of buying were engaged to assist repair (BOTETI REGION): Thank their own tractors so that they these tractors, but I have never P400 they are paid. That is why you Honourable Minister. Our can make more profit. I fail to seen them. That is why I am the Ministry has decided to re- Government urges Batswana understand why we are saying asking whether the Minister consider the price because it has to engage in farming but the people are discouraged to engage talking about something that is affected farming. Every centre is Honourable Minister is saying in farming. Even if we do not already in place. My tractor has allocated four tractors and you that they do not have any increase the tractors, people have been taken to the mechanics at are better because in Goodhope, plans to repair tractors soon or always loved farming, the only Parakarungu/Satau because of increase them, who is hampering you have National Master Plan challenge they had was paying a mechanical fault as we speak. Batswana’s efforts to produce for Arable Agricultural and Dairy for the tractors. That is when We have shortage of drivers and food?. Development (NAMPAADD) Government came up with an mechanics, when will this be Service Centre. I thank you. HONOURABLE initiative to provide tractors and attended? TSHIRELETSO: I have pay private tractor owners. I take KGOSI SEEMEKO MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable already informed this House that it that it is our responsibility as (SPECIALLY ELECTED): Minister, Kgosi has already there are no plans to increase the leaders to encourage our people increased the number of tractors Thank you Mr Chairman and a tractors because of the economic to apply for loans at NDB to with his. good morning to this Honourable crunch. We should note that buy tractors and benefit from House. I am not sure if I heard our Government assisted ISPAAD at the same time. In HONOURABLE the Honourable Minister well. Is farmers financially so that they Mosi region, when you request TSHIRELETSO: Thank you she saying there are no plans to can own tractors. Honourable for a tractor, they look at how Mr Chairman. We appreciate increase the tractors or they will Members, the Government much you produce, then they Kgosi’s assistance. On the consider that when the economy cannot do this alone. We have can lend you. That is what they issue of repairing tractors, recovers? I thank you. institutions like the National said. Let us not make an issue the arrangement was that 142 143 Friday 1st February, 2013 Questions For Oral answer Friday 1st February, 2013 Questions For Oral answer officers from Central Transport proposed an Amendment Bill No. KGOSI KAHIKO III: It would entire Bill because the question Organisation (CTO) will attend 22 of 2011 of the Botswana Meat have been much easier for me did not seek for that and even if it to these tractors as and when Commission Act which could to be specific if the Honourable did, I was just going to state that there is a problem. Nevertheless, gradually end the monopoly as it Minister had read out the entire instead of reading it, it shall be I have heard your concern Kgosi proposed that the Botswana Meat Bill, but she did not do that. My passed to this Honourable House that you have not seen these Commission seek a permit to question is, will this Bill not for consideration. I thank you. officers. We were informed that export meat as any other operator worsen the situation for farmers. they are located in Parakarungu would do. The Amendment Bill What is it that we should KGOSI KAHIKO III: The where the tractors are. I can has been deferred by the July expect from this Bill which will Honourable Minister in her not dispute the fact that you 2012 Parliament for further make things better to end this response has stated that everyone may not have seen them and I consultations. I thank you Mr monopoly. will have a chance to apply for appreciate that you brought that Chairman. a licence to trade beef; will that HONOURABLE be live cattle or meat? Will they to my attention. I will contact KGOSI KAHIKO III: TSHIRELETSO: This is the trade in the country or even my officers in your region so that Honourable Minister, I read answer that Kgosi is looking outside? Who will be responsible they can give you the names of this Bill however, I was left for and maybe I should read it for issuing such permits? these officers. It will be more wondering whether this Bill will slowly. ‘My Ministry proposed convenient to know who they not worsen the current situation MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable an Amendment Bill No. 22 of are so that you can contact them for farmers? Minister can you respond in 2011 of the Botswana Meat quickly when there is need. such a way that we can move HONOURABLE Commission Act which could They are stationed in forward. You have mentioned TSHIRELETSO: Mr Chairman, gradually end the monopoly as it but their services are needed that the bill has been deferred Kgosi did not ask a clear question. proposed that the Botswana Meat for further consultation, who at Parakarungu. I agree with I said the Bill has been deferred Commission seek a permit to will be consulted? Maybe some Kgosi that they should be sent to but he is saying something else export meat as any other operator of the questions we have here Parakarungu. would do.This Bill is basically but not specific about what he can be answered through that proposing that BMC should seek INTENTION TO END consultation. has picked from the Bill. This permission to export meat as THE BOTSWANA MEAT makes it a bit difficult to respond any other operator who wishes COMMISSION MONOPOLY HONOURABLE to the question because I am not to export can do so. That will be TSHIRELETSO: Thank you KGOSI M. KAHIKO III sure as to what he is referring very helpful to Batswana because Mr Chairman. The bill has been (GHANZI WEST REGION): to. The Bill has been proposed everyone will be allowed to sell deferred because Members of asked the Minister of Agriculture to Parliament to address this just like BMC. Mr Chairman, the Parliament identified that some what Government intends to monopoly, so that other operators way this questions was structured things have not been done. do to end the Botswana Meat can have the rights to sell outside was very brief, it reads, ‘to ask Others are of the opinion that Commission monopoly. just like BMC. the Minister of Agriculture what BMC should be privatised; they Government intends to do to end had their reasons for saying ACTING MINISTER OF MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi the Botswana Meat Commission that, which I cannot say here. I AGRICULTURE (HON Kahiko can you try to be specific monopoly.’ This Bill is trying to cannot say more than what I have TSHIRELETSO): My Ministry with your question? address that and I cannot read the already said here, details will be 144 145 Friday 1st February, 2013 Questions For Oral answer Friday 1st February, 2013 Questions For Oral answer publicized after the consultation. zones and the research has been FILLING OF THE DEPUTY COURT PRESIDENT POST IN I thank you Mr Chairman. completed. I thank you, Mr GHANZI CUSTOMARY COURT Chairman. KGOSI KAHIKO III: KGOSI M. KAHIKO III (GHANZI WEST REGION): asked the Thank you Mr Chairman and CONNECTION OF Minister of Local Government and Rural Development when the Honourable Minister. INTERNET AND EMAIL Deputy Court President post in Ghanzi Customary Court will be filled. SERVICES IN KANYE INTRODUCTION OF NEW CUSTOMARY COURT ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND BREEDS AT XANAGAS RURAL DEVELOPMENT (HON TSHIRELETSO): Mr RESEARCH RANCH KGOSI MALOPE II Chairman, the process of filling the post of Deputy Court President at (BANGWAKETSE): asked the Ghanzi Customary Court is at an advanced stage and candidates are KGOSI M. KAHIKO III Minister of Local Government awaiting assessment, after which the post will be filled by the end of (GHANZI WEST): asked the and Rural Development when this financial year. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Minister of Agriculture when internet and e-mail services new breeds other than the Musi will be connected in Kanye UPGRADING OF KHUIS, OMAWENENO AND HEREFORD and Brahman breeds will be Customary Court Offices. VILLAGES TO SENIOR CHIEF REPRESENTATIVE LEVEL introduced at Xanagas research ranch. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF KGOSI TOTO II (KGALAGADI SOUTH REGION): asked the ACTING MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND Minister of Local Government and Rural Development when the AGRICULTURE (HON RURAL DEVELOPMENT villages of Khuis, Omaweneno and Hereford will be upgraded to TSHIRELETSO): Thank (HON TSHIRELETSO): Thank Senior Chief Representative level. you Mr Chairman. The type of you, Mr Chairman. I cannot ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND breed kept at a specific ranch say certainly when internet RURAL DEVELOPMENT (HON TSHIRELETSO): Mr Chairman, is determined by the research and e-mail services will be my Ministry has assessed the workload of the Khuis, Omaweneno and objective that is being addressed. connected in Kanye Customary Hereford Dikgotla and the assessment indicates that the number of Currently, my Ministry is Court offices due to budgetary cases which were registered in these courts in 2012 do not warrant the focusing on the evaluation and constraints. However, this upgrading of these Customary Courts. The number of cases registered multiplication of Musi breed in connection will be considered at these courts in 2012 is as follows: different agro ecological zones in the future alongside other including Xanagas, Dikgatlhong competing priorities. Thank you, Mr Chairman. COURT NO. OF CIVIL CASES NO. OF and Morale ranches. The REGISTERED CRIMINAL CASES TOTAL Brahman breed is used in these REGISTERED KGOSI MALOPE: I do not ranches as the reference herd. Khuis 5 3 8 This is so because Brahman have any supplementary question has proven to be adaptable to but just a comment. Internet Omaweneno 29 49 78 the Botswana conditions. Other services do not need a huge Hereford 17 21 38 breeds such as Simmental, budget; it will not cost millions, Grand Total 124 Charolais and Sussex have just some thousands. I thank you been evaluated in other ranches Mr Chairman and Honourable I thank you, Mr Chairman. in different agro ecological Minister. 146 147 Friday 1st February, 2013 Questions For Oral answer Friday 1st February, 2013 Questions For Oral answer

KGOSI SEKWENYANE: us, we look at the number of of the phase two (2) project of Mr Chairman. Will the Minister What is the first thing that is criminal cases recorded. I thank increasing tarred roads and street consider installation of solar considered when upgrading a you Mr Chairman. lights within Tsabong. streetlights in future looking at customary court? Do you look at the fact that we have a lot of heat the number of criminal cases that MR CHAIRMAN: Before I give ASSISTANT MINISTER OF from the sun? I thank you. are registered at that court or the the floor to other Honourable LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND population? Members, the Ministry of Local RURAL DEVELOPMENT HONOURABLE Government once said that they (HON TSHIRELETSO): Mr TSHIRELETSO: Thank HONOURABLE do not look at the number of Chairman, there is no project you Mr Chairman. We have TSHIRELETSO: The first thing criminal cases recorded only, for increasing the length of considered using solar power that we look at is the number of they were responding to a similar tarred roads and street lighting streetlights in future. We already criminal cases registered because question in this House. This was in Tsabong during NDP 10 and have some companies that have upgrading implies that the court because Honourable Members hence it will be considered has an overwhelming work load. were of the view that this should during the next plan period submitted their proposals to us. We cannot consider population be considered as a main factor of NDP 11 alongside other These will indeed save us a lot alone when there are lesser when upgrading a Kgotla but we competing projects. Thank you, because we are told that they criminal cases registered there. I were informed that that is not the Mr Chairman. have a 25 year life span. I thank thank you. case as there are other factors that you Mr Chairman. are involved. During that time, KGOSI TOTO II: Thank you KGOSI BOIDITSWE Honourable Members did not Mr Chairman. Will it not be MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you (SEROWE REGION): If Kgosi dwell much into the issue; they expensive for Government if Honourable Minister. together with the leadership of there is a delay in approving the just accepted that only a number KGOSI TOTO II: Thank that village try by all means to of criminal cases recorded will project because now the village fight crime such that they end is expanding? It would have you Mr Chairman, thank you determine upgrading of a Kgotla. Honourable Minister. up having the lowest statistics, I wanted to make you aware of saved Government some costs will that village not be upgraded that and maybe urge you to go if these roads were included in DIFFERENT BOGOSI despite the fact that its population back and reconcile these two Phase II projects. STRUCTURE IN OTHER has increased? I thank you. answers that were provided by HONOURABLE your Ministry. HONOURABLE TSHIRELETSO: I do agree KGOSI TOTO II with Kgosi that if we delay, it TSHIRELETSO: We should PROGRESS OF PHASE (KGALAGADI SOUTH will be more expensive for us. also note that upgrading may be TWO PROJECT WITHIN REGION): asked the Minister The economic downturn has recommended by other people TSABONG of Local Government and Rural after observing your performance. created a lot of inconveniences Development to explain:- If KGOSI TOTO II for us; that is why we are saying at all there are effective measures (KGALAGADI SOUTH it will be considered along with (i) why the Bogosi structure in place that help curb crime REGION): asked the Minister other competing projects. I thank in Kgalagadi, North East, activities, then there will be of Local Government and Rural you. Chobe and Ghanzi Districts a recommendation for such a Development to update the KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH is different from other Kgotla to be upgraded. As for House regarding the progress EAST DISTRICT): Thank you Districts in Botswana; and 148 149 Friday 1st February, 2013 Questions For Oral answer Friday 1st February, 2013 Questions For Oral answer

(ii) if the Minister does not MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you Department and Transport, they BENEFITING FROM THE deem it necessary to correct Kgosi Toto. I believe Kgosi was use the money to develop their RECESSION ALLOWANCE this anomaly. concluding on question 11. departments. Is it possible with us? I thank you. KGOSI M. KAHIKO III ASSISTANT MINISTER OF REVIEW OF THE (GHANZI WEST REGION): LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND P4 CHARGE WHEN HONOURABLE asked the Minister of Local RURAL DEVELOPMENT REQUESTING FOR TSHIRELETSO: Mr Chairman, Government and Rural (HON TSHIRELETSO): Mr AN APPEAL AT THE I appreciate the fact that these Development why Headmen of Chairman, the structure of Bogosi CUSTOMARY COURT questions can actually help us to Arbitration do not benefit from in Kgalagadi, North East, Chobe get some ideas from Honourable recession allowance. and Ghanzi Districts is different KGOSI TOTO II Members to better our services. from other Districts in Botswana (KGALAGADI SOUTH I have asked my Secretary to ASSISTANT MINISTER OF because this is in accordance REGION): asked the Minister note it down because this is LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND with Sections 77:1 (a) and 78 (2) of Local Government and Rural something that could help Tribal RURAL DEVELOPMENT of the Constitution. According to Development if he will consider Administration. We do not wish (HON TSHIRELETSO): Mr these provisions, the Members reviewing the P4.00 charge that to take long in amending this Chairman, thank you. In line from these areas are selected is paid when one requests for an fee because things have changed with Public Service Management to Ntlo ya Dikgosi by others Appeal at the Customary Court. and even the other day we were Directive No. 12 of 2012 which within each of these areas. Mr amending the fees proposed in came in to effect on 1st October ASSISTANT MINISTER OF Chairman, there is no anomaly the Bill that we were discussing. 2012, Headmen of Arbitration in this arrangement as it is LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND We have realised that it should did not benefit for Temporary provided for in the Constitution, RURAL DEVELOPMENT Relief Recession Allowance as (HON TSHIRELETSO): be treated as a matter of urgency which is the supreme law of the this dispensation was applied Thank you very much Mr including others that are not Republic. In this regard, I do not to Permanent and Pensionable Chairman. Mr Chairman, I am mentioned. I believe together deem it necessary to make any staff on Government payroll. aware that the P4 charged for with Honurable Members, corrections as this would violate However, they benefited from the Constitution. I thank you Mr appeals is on the lower side. My we shall discuss the fee to be the 3 percent salary increase. The Chairman. Ministry will in future consider charged because we have to allowance was introduced for reviewing the P4 charge since it consider that we are doing this grades C4 and below including KGOSI TOTO II: Thank you has long been in place. I thank for our communities. This matter Mr Chairman. I will not ask you Mr Chairman. Headman of Arbitration on does not call for an amendment Permanent and Pensionable any supplementary question on KGOSI MASUNGA: Thank of the law because it is an terms of employment. Thank you this matter. My question was you Honourable Minister. Will administrative issue, it is not in Mr Chairman. not understood, so I will see the you consider taking this P4.00 the Customary Courts Act. Honourable Minister outside KGOSI KAHIKO III: Mr charge into Tribal Administration Chairman, I did not quite this House so that I explain in fund instead of going into MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you Honourable Minister. understand the Honourable detail what I am talking about. Government’s account? I have Minister. If possible, can she Thank you Mr Chairman and benchmarked this practice KGOSI TOTO II: Thank you kindly explain the answer so that Honourable Minister. from the Botswana Police Honourable Minister. I can understand. 150 151 Friday 1st February, 2013 Questions For Oral answer Friday 4th November, 2011 Increment of Carcass Prices at Maun BMC - Motion MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable KGOSI KAHIKO III: Development when the vehicle MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi Minister, Kgosi Kahiko is Honourable Minister, others belonging to the Kisa village Kegaisamang Ramokwena, I requesting for an explanation got the 3 percent but not the which was boarded five (5) years believe that the Minister present of the answer that you have just recession allowance though they ago will be replaced. here is on behalf of the Minister given. are affected by the recession? of Agriculture. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF Does the Honourable Minister HONOURABLE LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND not find it opportune for the KGOSI RAMOKWENA TSHIRELETSO: I was saying RURAL DEVELOPMENT leadership to consider giving (MAUN REGION): Thank you that in line with Public Service (HON TSHIRELETSO): them that allowance? That was Mr Chairman. I would like this Management Directive No. 12 Thank you very Mr Chairman. my last question. Honourable House to allow me of 2012 which came in to effect Mr Chairman, I cannot say to defer this motion to a later date st with certainty when BX 02 on 1 October 2012, Headmen HONOURABLE because I still want to conduct 6443 Toyota Land Cruiser for of Arbitration did not benefit TSHIRELETSO: It is not only further research to strengthen my for Temporary Relief Recession the Headmen of Arbitration Kisa which was boarded on 2nd July 2009 will be replaced. presentation. who were affected by recession. Allowance as this dispensation As the Honourable Member was applied to Permanent We have others like in Village may be aware, replacement of MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi and Pensionable staff on Development Committees boarded vehicles is a country Ramokwena has requested that Government payroll. However, (VDCs) and other temporary wide challenge for government this motion be deferred to a officers under Government later date, he shall table it after they benefited from the 3 percent because of budgetary constraints. payroll; they were affected by doing a research on it. I believe salary increase. The allowance Funds permitting, it will be this recession but they never got considered along with other Honourable Members will allow was introduced for grades C4 the 3 per cent recession increment vehicles in future. In the him to do so. and below including Headman simply because they do not fall meantime, Kisa is assisted by of Arbitration on Permanent under the categories specified by either Omaweneno or Maralaleng MOTION- Deffered and Pensionable terms of on weekly basis. I thank you Mr the directive. We were guided by REVIEW OF DIKGOSI employment. I thank you. Chairman. the directive. I thank you. AND DIKGOSANA PAY KGOSI TOTO II: Thank you MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you STRUCTURE KGOSI KAHIKO III: Honourable Minister, thank you Honourable Minister. Thank you Mr Chairman and Mr Chairman. Motion KGOSI KAHIKO III: I have Honourable Minister. MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you KGOSI GAREBAKWENA heard you Honourable Minister, REPLACEMENT OF Kgosi Toto, with that we have (MOLEPOLOLE REGION): but my question is, if an officer THE VEHICLE THAT come to the end of our questions Thank you Mr Chairman. I is on allowance, are they not BELONGED TO KISA for today, we proceed with the too would like to defer this affected by recession as well? VILLAGE House business. motion because when we were HONOURABLE INCREMENT OF in Maharaj, the Honourable TSHIRELETSO: It does KGOSI TOTO II CARCASS PRICES AT Minister promised to discuss it affect them, that is why they (KGALAGADI SOUTH MAUN BMC with this Honourable House. We were included in the 3 per cent REGION): asked the Minister have had two meetings in a row increase. of Local Government and Rural Motion and he has not yet done that, so I 152 153 Friday 4th November, 2011 Chairman’s Remarks Friday 4th November, 2011 Chairman’s Remarks think I should talk to him before One other important issue courses which play a pivotal to amend them in such a way bringing it back as a motion. I that Honourable Members role in the leadership skills of that it will benefit us and our thank you. have raised as a concern is the Dikgosi. communities. Motion- Deffered availability of resources; this We have just concluded the On a different matter, I believe hinders us from delivering quality Customary Courts Amendment CHAIRMAN’S that Honourable Members are services. Kgosi Malope asked Bill. I believe that we have REMARKS aware that we are lagging behind a question about internet and learnt quite a lot. There are when it comes to amendment MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi email services. We have realised some sections that we feel need of our Rules of Procedure but Garebakwena wishes to defer that technology is advanced to be amended. One of those it is vital that we amend them. his motion so that he can ask the these days, we have moved sections is under the Bogosi Act. I would like to extend my Honourable Minister to update from postal services to internet Honourable Members picked sincere gratitude to those who this House as per their agreement. services. This would expedite issues that affect Dikgosana. participated in this meeting. I On that note we have finished delivery at customary courts. As We agreed that we cannot want to appreciate in particular, our business on the Order Paper. we were debating the Customary include those aspects under the Ntlo Ya Dikgosi administration Some of the administrative Courts Amendment Bill, one Customary Courts Act because especially the Secretary for issues shall be discussed after Honourable Member mentioned under the Bogosi Act, they mean ensuring that the House runs the break. We have come to the the issue of transmission of something else. For example, th smoothly and for facilitating end of the 11 Meeting of the records, that if we have access Headman of record and Headmen nd the training of Members. Had 2 Ntlo ya Dikgosi. We have to the modern technology, we of Arbitration are generally it not been for their efforts, been here for two weeks and I will be able to deliver efficiently referred to as Kgosana but they this House would not be able believe that during this period without any delays. I believe are two different positions. accomplish its mandate. Ms we managed to complete our that the director of Tribal These are some of the issues Thebe and your colleagues, we business even though there was a Administration together with that need to be amended. We thank you for your efforts. I lot to do. Last week Honourable the Minister will be able to take have Motshwarelela moemela would also like to acknowledge Members attended a course at action on that. Ntlo ya Dikgosi Kgosi but administratively we Honourable Members; without Botswana National Productivity trains Members of the House have senior chief representative your presence, this House would Centre (BNPC) which was very only. It is upon the Ministry of and chief representative. Under engaging. They did a lot of not be what it is. I appreciate Local Government to ensure that Customary Courts Act, there is a activities during that training your cooperation which makes they train those Dikgosi who difference between the two even . We managed to conduct our it much easier for this House are not members of this House. in their grading. I believe these own assessments and identify to attain its aspirations. I also Local Government should be are some of the issues that need challenges that we might have thank you for entrusting us with able to do an assessment to to be looked into to achieve a at Tribal Administration. It is identify the needs of members the responsibilities of Chairman important that some of the things dignified Bogosi structure. We of Tribal Administration so that and Deputy. We can assure you we listed be forwarded to the cannot amend one leaving the that we shall work together with Ministry of Local Government they can help them to improve other. There are other aspects service delivery. Technology you in consulting and ensuring together with the Department of that involve the customary courts has changed and it is imperative that the mandate of this House is Tribal Administration because structures, and I believe it is they include our working for Dikgosi to be at par with the fulfilled. I would like to thank the our responsibility as Dikgosi conditions as Dikgosi. changing times. There are some former Deputy Chairman, Kgosi

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Lotlamoreng II. I believe we from the Bible, it states that have worked well together and we are the body of Christ, He achieved a lot, if it was not for being the head and us the body. his advice and input, we would I believe that is applicable to not have achieved much. us in this Honourable House. For this body to function, every Lastly, I would like to thank part must play its role. There the Honourable Minister. is no how any part of the body She managed to represent the can stand independently and Minister of Minerals, Water and perform efficiently; they need Energy, Local Government and each other to perform. If one part Agriculture. I was wondering if is not well, that affects the whole you were going to represent even body. Together we can conquer the one for Presidential Affairs anything. and Public Administration. Nevertheless, we thank you With that, we have come to the for managing to be with us end of business for this session. throughout our business. I would I believe we shall continue like to urge you to encourage with the same spirit towards your colleagues to attend this achieving the best for this House because even if they are House. The House is adjourned held up by other official duties, sine die. this House is equally important according to the Constitution of ADJOURNMENT this country. We appreciate the The House accordingly fact that you missed the retreat adjourned at 12:00 p.m. sine for Cabinet which is on-going die. to be with us here. I would also like to thank the Media team for their coverage. Please continue doing the good work of taking this House to the public. Even though sometimes you spice up the information, we thank you. This spicing can work to our advantage because it will compel us to reflect and improve where need be. I would like to conclude by taking one scripture

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