Debates of the Ntlo Ya Dikgosi

Republic of Botswana DEBATES OF THE NTLO YA DIKGOSI

OFFICIAL REPORT

SIXTH MEETING OF THE SECOND NTLO YA DIKGOSI

Sitting from 6 - 17 June 2011 THE PROCEEDINGS

of the

SIXTH MEETING

THE SECOND NTLO YA DIKGOSI (Official Report)

Sitting from 6 - 17 June 2011

i NTLO YA DIKGOSI CHAIRMAN Kgosi Puso Gaborone Batlokwa DEPUTY CHAIRMAN Kgosi Lotlamoreng II Barolong MEMBERS Kgosi K. Boiditswe Serowe Region Kgosi I. Gaoonwe Letlhakeng Region Kgosi B. Garebakwena Molepolole Region Kgosi M. Kahiko III Ghanzi West Kgosi S. H. Kgamane Bangwato Kgosi Kgari III Bakwena Kgosi K. Lempadi Okavango Region Kgosi O. Machilidza Boteti Region Kgosi M. Malema Bobirwa Region Kgosi Malope II Bangwaketse Kgosi T. M. Masunga North East Kgosi M. Mmualefhe Chobe Kgosi A. O. Monnaathebe Thamaga Kgosi P. K. Montshiwa Kgalagadi North Kgosi K. Moremi Batawana Kgosi S. Moroka Tswapong Kgosi J. Moseki Ghanzi East Kgosi T. B. Ndzonga Tutume Kgosi B. Ramokone Kanye Kgosi K. Ramokwena Maun Kgosi E. Potsoeng Ngami Region Kgosi M. Seboko Balete Kgosi P. Seeletso Tonota Region Kgosi P. Sekwenyane Ngwaketse West Kgosi K. Telekelo Moshupa Kgosi T. F. Tshipe Mahalapye Region Kgosi Toto II Kgalagadi South Kgosi S. Esterhuizen Specially Elected Kgosi M. Moeti II Specially Elected Kgosi M. Seemeko Specially Elected Kgosi M. M. Sinvula Specially Elected Kgosi T. Xao Specially Elected ii Secretary : N. Thebe

Ass. Secretary : M. Moreri

Proof Reading : A. B. Gaobotse

Layout : Badisa M. Morue Bakang B. Khumanego E. Dodkins

Edited by : A. B. Gaobotse E. Dodkins

Translated by : K. Nyanga K. Ben M. Kagiso B. Morakanyane

Typesetting : Hansard Reporters iii Table of Contents

Chairman’s Remarks ...... 1, 6, 63, 102, 120, 160 Bills Local Government Bill, 2011 (No.3 of 2011) ...... 6, 30, 63 Resolution ...... 101, 102 Motions Commemoration of the Existence of Tribal Administration ...... 197 Establishment of an International Free Market for Livestock ...... 147 Establishment of Equality Courts ...... 160, 209 Establishment of Old Age Homes ...... 189 Inclusion of Ear Marks on Brand Certificate .... 181 Inclusion of Education Sector Under Essential Services ...... 201 Introduction of Proof of Eligibility for Food Ration Programme ...... 118, 127 Provision of Expertise and Machinery for Purposes of Drilling Boreholes ...... 188 Registration of Marriages ...... 175 Review of School Indemnity Letter ...... 142 Review of the Scheme of Service for Customary Court Clerks ...... 129 Requests for Patrols Along the Border ...... 185 Witnessing of Marriages by Parents ...... 169 Questions for Oral Answer ...... 112, 120, 160 iv Monday 6th June, 2011 Chairman’s Remarks

Monday 6th June, 2011 1st Ntlo Ya Dikgosi, because it THE HOUSE met at 10.00 a.m. was the first one to sit after the amendment of the Constitution. (THE CHAIRMAN in the The 2nd Ntlo Ya Dikgosi began Chair) in 2009 after the elections and P R A Y E R S it is going to end in 2014 when * * * * our 5 year term elapses. So, welcome to the 6th Meeting of CHAIRMAN’S REMARKS the 2nd Ntlo ya Dikgosi. This MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI meeting will last for 2 weeks as GABORONE): The Deputy is the norm. I believe that the Chairman of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi, Honourable Members and the Kgosi Lotlamoreng II, media personnel are already Honourable Members of this aware that during the first week, esteemed House, Assistant we will be having briefings from Minister of Local Government, different Government and Non- Ms Botlogile Tshireletso, The Governmental organisations. Clerk of the National Assembly, They will basically be informing Ms Dithapo, her Deputy Ms us on different programmes and Tselayakgosi, the Secretary of initiatives they have in their Ntlo Ya Dikgosi, members of Organisations. During the second staff present, members of the week, we shall be discussing the public service as well as the business of the House, which media personnel present, I greet mainly comprises of questions, you all this morning, PULA! I motions and anything else that have been longing to be with you the Ministers might want to during these difficult times. I am discuss with us. glad that we are here to discuss I would like to emphasise that in issues as leaders of the nation. the second week, during the first Members of the media may come three days, we will be focusing forward and take pictures for a on the amendment of the Local minute, then we can proceed with Government Bill, 2011 (No.3 the business. I welcome you all of 2011). I believe that at the th nd to the 6 Meeting of the 2 Ntlo appropriate time, the Minister of Ya Dikgosi. People often ask Local Government will present me why we refer to the House the proposed amendments for that st nd as the 1 or 2 Ntlo Ya Dikgosi. Bill to the House. The Members The House which started from of the House will then be granted 2007 to 2009 is referred to as the

1 Monday 6th June, 2011 Chairman’s Remarks the opportunity to deliberate on business of the House should be this proposed Bill. Section 88, (2) dealt with during that week. of the Constitution of this country During the time that this House provides that Bills that have to was on recess, a lot happened. be referred to Ntlo ya Dikgosi There were meetings and should be read for the first time different workshops. You will in Parliament, after that they remember that I did not attend shall be referred to this House. I the 5th Meeting with you because believe that you are aware of the I had accompanied the Speaker of kind of Bills that get referred to the National Assembly to Japan this House and those that do not. on a benchmarking trip. One of Since this is a Bill from Local the most important things that Government, the Minister saw it I learnt when I was in Japan is fit to refer it to this House so that that they are very time conscious we can also air our opinions with and I believe that we are going to regards to its proposals. I believe practise that during our meeting that the Honourable Members will this time around, so that we can take some time to read the Bill and be able to finish our business on understand its intended purpose time. before we come to discuss it in this House. This will give us enough In March, I had an opportunity time to prepare ourselves, so that of joining the Minister of Local we do not claim to have not been Government, Honourable consulted in future. It will not be Mokalake, for a Commonwealth the first time that the Minister is Local Government Conference bringing this Bill before us, we which was held in Wales, Cardiff. discussed certain sections of the I was part of a delegation that Bill in our past briefings. represented this country under Local Government. This was a very Still during this meeting, we important conference especially shall also consider 33 questions for us, Dikgosi. The theme of and 13 motions brought in the workshop was; Energizing by the Honourable Members. Local Economies - Partnerships This means that during the for Prosperous Communities. second week, we shall deal with It covered our contribution as the proposed Bill as well as Dikgosi in working together and questions and motions. I would encouraging our community like to request that we use our members to build businesses to time effectively because all the develop their own lives.

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I believe that we have different also went to our neighbouring initiatives in our communities country, South Africa. We that are geared towards met with the South African empowering people. A typical President Jacob Zuma, when example is that of Tswapong he was addressing the House of women from the Lerala village. Traditional Leaders on the Role They have come together to of Traditional Leadership in a build small businesses that are Democratic Society. I believe geared towards developing that this is one issue that we their lives. Since the Assistant have to address, to see the role Minister is here, I believe that that Bogosi is supposed to play she and her colleagues at Local in the governance of our country. Government will come and make This is one challenge that we are a presentation to this House on faced with as Dikgosi. If we can what our contribution can be in be able to address this challenge, energizing local economies. We then the Bogosi institution will also undertook a benchmarking have the dignity that it should trip to Zambia to see how their have and the nation will walk in Bogosi is and to compare their the right direction. processes to ours. We also wanted It is really touching to note that to establish the contribution of the other countries regard Botswana institution in their governance. as having a very powerful Bogosi This will enable us to get some that everyone is proud of. Lots ideas on how we can improve of people visit our country for our House as well. benchmarking on how we run the Bogosi is highly regarded in institution. For example, we had Zambia and I believe that should a delegation from Somaliland in drive us to improve the Bogosi March, they came to observe and institution. We should ensure that learn how Bogosi is run in this the Bogosi institution is respected country as well as our Dikgotla. and it can be respected through They indicated that they were our intellect, our contributions impressed by our processes and and actions. If we can get to that they would like to implement point, we will be able to have them in their country. When we a strong institution which runs were in Wales we read literature its processes differently. That about Bogosi institution in will encourage Dikgosi to take Botswana and how important their job seriously as well. We it is in the governing of our

3 Monday 6th June, 2011 Chairman’s Remarks country. It was something that knowledge and information as had impressed them and they theirs whilst as tribesmen, we fail wished to implement it in their to elevate Bogosi to the position country so that they could be able it is supposed to be at in our to bring their nation together. If nation. As we begin this meeting people from other countries can Honourable Members, I would notice the importance of our like us to think about these issues institution, then the question that and determine how we want to we should be asking ourselves protect this institution of ours and as Dikgosi, the Government where we want to go as Dikgosi. and Batswana in general is what Honourable Members, I could go are we doing to ensure that the on and on about this issue but the Bogosi Institution holds the important thing to ask ourselves position it should in the nation? is, what we are doing about I want this to be a challenge to Bogosi in this country? I will us Honourable Members. At stop here with regards to issues times one may say that he/she connected to Bogosi. has been a Kgosi for ten years Getting back to the home front; I but the question that should be believe that you will agree with asked is “what has been done in me that things have not been those ten years as a Kgosi.” One going well for Batswana and should be able to show his/her the leadership during the past contribution towards the growth seven weeks. As leaders of the of Bogosi. One other example nation, we encountered various that I can cite is that I have challenges due to the public received an invitation from South service strike that took place in Africa to attend a conference this country. I believe you all to be held in September and it noticed that various services will be discussing the Kgotla were affected in our villages, be process. This conference was it health services, education or not organised by Batswana, it others. My belief is that Kgosi is was organised by white people. a guardian and an arbitrator who The major question is; what are gets concerned every time his/her we saying about Bogosi and tribe’s lives are disturbed. This the Kgotla process? Are we also applies to our households. going to wait for people from Every parent becomes concerned other countries to write and talk when his/her children do not about Bogosi? At the end of the relate well and the parent does day they are going to claim this

4 Monday 6th June, 2011 Chairman’s Remarks not take any sides. We wish to As we do this, we should not see Bogosi doing something like forget to include Bogosi in the that in this country. They should consultations. As leaders of be careful not to take sides. They communities, Dikgosi can bring should be respectful so that the appropriate solutions to different same respect can be accorded to situations. Honourable Assistant them as well. Batswana usually Minister, as we fall under your say that, ‘ntwa kgolo ke ya Ministry, we would like to molomo.’ What is important is inform you that Dikgosi should that this issue should be talked be consulted whenever there are through and the talks should issues that affect the community, involve both the public servants so that we can assist in building and the employer, being the this nation. Government. Consultations are With those words Honourable an integral part of our culture. Members, the 6th Meeting of Ntlo It should be done, whether the Ya Dikgosi is officially open. resolution will be positive or According to the programme, we negative. This country has been shall be discussing administrative led through consultations for all issues. When we finish here, we these years and that is what has will go for tea. Vehicles will be bred the democracy that we have outside to transport us to the in this country. I request that in venue where we will hold our all the issues that we will have to briefings and breakfast. You deal with in future, there should might have noticed that there are be consultations with the relevant some on going renovations and stakeholders. The talks should be as such, our briefings will not be held in an open, understanding held here. Members of staff will and cooperative manner. That be there to direct you to where is one request which I believe you are supposed to go. I believe every Kgosi should strive to from here we are going to meet uphold because that is the kind at 11 o’clock a.m. The media of spirit we wish to have in this personnel, members of the public country. At the end of the day, and Ministers will not be part of this country should be a peaceful that meeting. Please do not think and cooperative nation. When that we are banishing you from the dust settles, there should be our House, we want to talk about peace and reconciliation, by so issues that affect us in private. doing; we will be protecting We are going to discuss how the intergrity of our country.

5 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 we are going to go about this Honourable Members have programme that we have before read the Bill that is going to be us. Tomorrow the programme presented. This will help the begins at 9 o’clock and the media discussions to progress well and is allowed to attend, however it will also save time. the public is not allowed simply LOCAL GOVERNMENT because the space is limited. BILL, 2011 (No.3 of 2011) With those words let us have a MINISTER OF LOCAL good day. GOVERNMENT (HON. ADJOURNMENT MOKALAKE): Thank you Mr Chairman. Let me start off by The House accordingly adjourned making a small introduction. I at 10.30 a.m. until Monday 13th believe that you are aware that I June 2011 at 9.30 a.m. now have a new Assistant Minister Monday 13th June, 2011 and he is Honourable Motowane. THE HOUSE met at 9.30 a.m. He replaced Honourable Rammidi when he resigned from his (THE CHAIRMAN in the Ministerial position. Honourable Chair) Motowane has been the Assistant P R A Y E R S Minister in the Ministry of Trade * * * * and Industry. We shall be working hand in hand from now on. CHAIRMAN’S REMARKS MR CHAIRMAN: We welcome MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI you Honourable Minister. GABORONE): Good morning Honourable Members of Ntlo Ya H O N O U R A B L E Dikgosi, Honourable Ministers MOKALAKE: Thank you Mr from Local Government, Chairman. I beg to present the Permanent Secretaries as well as Local Government Bill, 2011 the Ntlo Ya Dikgosi staff present. (No.3 of 2011). The objective of I welcome you to the second this Bill is to consolidate Local stage of our programme of the Government Act; that is for 6th Meeting. We have completed District Councils Cap 40:01 and the first stage of the programme Townships Act Cap 40:02 and and in this meeting; we are going to provide for the establishment to look at the Local Government of Councils and for matters Bill, 2011, 33 Questions and incidental thereto or connected 13 Motions. I believe that the therewith.

6 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011

This Bill was tabled before and secure full participation of Parliament for First Reading on Local Communities. the 25th of March, 2011. In view of Therefore, strengthening the pivotal role that Bogosi plays the position and identity of in Local Government and the fact Councils in recognition thereof that the Bill touches on issues would stimulate ownership, of culture and tribal properties, accountability, responsiveness Government considered it and responsibility of Councils prudent that it be referred to this and strengthen their confidence Honourable House in accordance in the discharge of their mandate. with the provisions of Section In their examination of the Local 88(2) of the Constitution. Mr instruments governing Local Chairman, the Local Government Authorities, the Commission Bill has come about as a sequel to observed that indeed there are countrywide public consultations some inherent weaknesses and carried out by Presidential barriers for effective delivery of Commission appointed in 2001 services in the legal framework to review the effectiveness of the for Councils. The Commission structures, organisations, roles further observed that the Acts of and responsibilities of Local Parliament establishing Districts Government institutions at all and Urban Councils are similar levels in Botswana. in detail and content save for the The Commission made several following notable differences: recommendations relating to a) The power to establish or the individual Local Authorities abolish District Councils and and institutions. With respect to Urban Councils rest with the Councils, the Commission made President and the Minister a conclusion that these bodies respectively. are not merely Government service delivering institutions or b) District Councils are led implementing agencies that are by Chairman while urban extensions of a national ministry, Councils are headed by they are instead, the second tier Mayors. of Government. The Commission c) The contents of the legal noted that it is through Councils regulations governing Urban that the Government can give Councils that is townships are meaning to effective service almost a reproduction of the delivery and good governance Local Government or District

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Councils Act save that the I decided to take a holistic Town Council Regulations approach and taking on board have a part dealing with other general issues affecting valuation and rating and Local Government in the country, finally; including other emerging issues from the report of the Second d) Section 8 (2) of the Town Presidential Commission Council Regulations permit on the Local Government the Minister of Local structure which I referred to Government to dismiss earlier on. Consultations on an especially appointed the draft Bill started with the Councillor while the District leadership of Councils, that is, Council does not. Mayors, Chairpersons and Chief As a result, the Commission Executives of Councils as well as concluded that it would District Commissioners in April be sensible to constitute a 2010. These were later extended comprehensive legal instrument to all individual Local Authorities to cover both district and urban between May and August 2010. Councils. The Commission therefore, recommended that As Honourable Members will the Local Government District be aware, this Honourable Councils Act Cap 40:02 that is for House was also consulted on Townships be consolidated into the Bill in June 2010. All these one Local Government Council consultations were necessary Act. This recommendation was because we wanted to get all approved through Government stakeholders’ input before the Paper No.1 of 2004 on the Second Bill was finalised and take it Presidential Commission on through approval stages. A Local Government structures in general provision in this Bill is Botswana. It is for this reason that the harmonisation of the powers this Bill intends to consolidate of Central Government where the District Council Act Cap the parent Act gives powers to 40:01 and the Townships Act Cap the President for extension of 40:02 to come up with one Local certain functions over Councils. Government Act that governs This has been substituted by the Councils regardless of whether Minister. Currently the Minister they are rural or urban. That has powers over Urban Councils notwithstanding Mr Chairman, whereas with respect to District in consolidating the two Acts; Councils, it is both the President

8 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 and the Minister. This is intended spelled out in the Law so as to harmonise the application of to guide the authorities in the the Law, equitably in both urban establishment of subordinate and District Councils. This is authorities. similar to the provisions of several The other key provision is other Laws that have placed Clause 7, which provides for responsibility for management of declaring of any place within sectoral activities on Ministers as any administrative district to be a opposed to the President. township. This is contrary to the Mr Chairman, let me now go current Law which prohibits this through the most important unless such a place is for mineral Clauses of the Bill. development. Part I of the Bill provides for Part III outlines the powers the title of the Bill which is and duties of Councils. Specific entitled “Local Government” duties of Councils are listed and covers other preliminary under Schedule One. Worth matters particularly those on noting under this part is the interpretation of terminology requirement for Councils used in the Bill. to enter into any contract following the Local Authorities Part II provides for the Procurement and Asset Disposal establishment of Councils, Act (LAPAD) or any instrument subordinate authorities and prescribed by the Minister, declaration of Townships. A whereas in the past contract key new Clause under this part agreements were entered into in relates to the establishment of the accordance with the Townships hierarchy of Local Government and District Councils Act. This structures, Sub districts, cities, will now be done in line with a townships and administrative separate Act being the LAPAD authorities and service centres. Act which was passed by As of now this is not mentioned Parliament in 2008. in any of our Laws, whereas in the past the establishment of districts Part IV provides for the was made through a Statutory Constitution of Councils. Clause Instrument. The establishment 12 under this part provides for the of subordinate authorities was inclusion of Members of Ntlo ya done through administrative Dikgosi as ex-officio members arrangements. These have been of both the main Councils and

9 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 subordinate Councils. The Land the elections of the Mayor Board Chairman is also proposed or Chairperson, the Council to be an ex-officio member of Secretary or Town Clerk should the Council while the Sub Land preside. This is a departure from Board Chairperson is proposed the current arrangement where to be an ex-officio member of the it is the outgoing Mayor in case subordinate Council. of urban authorities who should preside. This has proved to be Clause 16 under this part provides problematic in instances where the additional circumstances under out-going Mayor is also standing which a seat of a member or for re-election, hence this new Council shall become vacant; of proposal. Election of the Deputy particular reference is the vacation and Chairperson for Sub-Council of a seat upon confirmation by and Administrative Authority shall medical board that a Councillor follow the same procedure. This is incapable of discharging his or is primarily because all members her duties because of infirmity of the Council must participate in of mind or body. Another new elections. development under this part is the filling of a Council member’s Clause 19 further accommodates vacancy within three months for the vacation of the office by after it occurs and the proposal the Mayor or Council Chairperson not to fill the vacancy within six upon the passing of the resolution months closer to the next Local by not less than 2/3 of members Government elections. of Council. Clause 16 also bars both elected Part V provides for the and nominated Councillors from proceedings of Councils, floor crossing. The current Acts chairing of meetings, recording are silent on all these matters. of Council proceedings, voting at meetings and quorum among There is also a Clause under others. Clause 29 introduces the this part being Clause 18 which maximum number of Committees provides for swearing in of that a Council or Subordinate Councillors before taking their Council can appoint to be seven seats in Councils. Currently (7) to promote efficiency, avoid Councillors are not sworn in duplication of efforts and reduce upon taking their seats in their costs. In terms of the current Councils. Acts, the number of Committees Clause 19 proposes that during is unlimited.

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Part VI currently exists as is. persons, places of worship, etc. The only addition on it is the This tax is necessary for District extension of such provisions Councils to expand their revenue to members of subordinate base so that they can provide Councils. Essentially, this confers services to their constituents. immunity from civil and criminal Part IX provides authority to proceedings on members of Councils to make Bye-Laws and the Council, for words spoken standing orders. In recognition before or written in a report to of the fact that Councils not the Council or a Committee of only enforce Bye-Laws, but the Council. It also provides for other delegated Acts, Bye-Law members’ freedom from arrest enforcement office has been for any civil debt while going re-designated Council Law to, attending or returning from Enforcement Offices under a meeting of the Council or any Clause 50-51 to strengthen Law Committee of the Council. enforcement. A provision has Part VII provides for the been made to bestow powers employment of Council staff in on Council Law Enforcement accordance with the provisions Officers to arrest offenders and of Public Service Act, 2008. seize properties under Clause 52. The amendment is intended to Part X outlines the financial recognise the application of the provisions regulating the revenue Public Service Act on staff of of Councils, the accounts and Councils following the repeal of audit, borrowing powers, bank the Unified Local Government accounts and investments and Service Act. financial year of Councils. A new Part VIII provides for the development under this part is valuation and rating of properties. a Clause 67 (11) requiring the It also provides for establishment, Auditor General to undertake constitution, powers, functions performance audit of a Council. and duties of the Valuation The current Acts do not provide Tribunal. While this has been for this arrangement. applicable only to Towns, Clause Part XI retains Local Authorities 37 extends property valuation Public Accounts Committee and rating to District Councils on (LAPAC) in its current form. a selective basis. The selective application could exclude Part XII provides for the residential areas or destitute establishment of development

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Committees. Clause 78 in policy foundation which should particular establishes District and necessarily be implemented Urban Development Committees by Councils. Therefore, when in district and urban centres Councils go against it, he/she respectively. Clause 79 established should have the power to reject Village and Ward Development any such resolution. Committees. This is in recognition Clause 85 makes it mandatory for of these committees’ critical role Members of Council to declare in coordinating development at their interests within 90 days district and villages levels. The of their election into a Council current Acts do not provide for and thereafter every year. This this arrangement. is further substantiated by Part XIII provides for Clause 87 that bars Councillors miscellaneous matters. In from using their positions or particular, Clause 82 provides confidential information for their for the establishment of Local personal gains. Government Association whose Lastly, Clause 88 provides objective is to promote good for dissolution of Councils governance, unity, cohesion and to promote good governance. cooperation among Councils. Where a Council has been Currently, Local Authorities have dissolved, its assets and liabilities the Botswana Association of shall be transferred to a newly Local Authorities (BALA) which established Council in place of is not establishment through a the dissolved one. Mr Chairman, statutory instrument. this concludes my presentation. I Under this part, a provision has hope Honourable Members will also been made at Clause 83 for assist me in perfecting this Law the Minister to have the power to by coming up with suggestions for reject, vary or amend a resolution improvement where necessary. of the Council considering The quality of the end product financial implications and public will be a direct result of the or national interests. This is level of diligence that we all not intended to unnecessarily apply ourselves as stakeholders control Councils. But rather, in the exercise. It is our hope it is intended to guard against that through this Bill, we should situations where Councils unduly be able to create better local commit Government. It should governance by: be noted that the Minister lays

12 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 a) Providing a legal basis for hope you understood what the decentralisation, devolution Honourable Minister meant when of power to local authorities he said ‘the current Act does not and enabling more influence, provide for this arrangement.’ choice and greater opportunity The Minister brought a request to run local affairs; and the expectation is that at the end, we would have come b) Advocating a stronger role for up with suggestions that would local authorities as institutions allow for the improvement of closer to the people; and Councils. I would like to take c) Supporting the political this opportunity to bring to the representatives and enabling attention of the Honourable them to seize the opportunity Members what the Rules of to drive delivery of services Procedure say about Bills. Sub- to their constituents. rule 4 of Rule 43 explains that ‘When the First Reading of the I thank you and move Bill is taken, the Chairperson accordingly. shall move that the Bill be read a MR CHAIRMAN: Thank first time, and a debate may then you, Honourable Minister. The arise, on the question, covering First Reading of the Bill has the general merits and principles been done and the Minister has of the Bill. At the conclusion of highlighted the objectives of the such debate, no question shall Bill. It is meant to consolidate be put and the question on the Local Government Act, that is for motion shall be deemed to have District Councils Cap 40:01 and been agreed to’. Townships Act Cap 40:02 and We shall now debate on the to provide for the establishment general merits and principles of Councils and for matters of the Bill. We have heard the incidental thereto or connected presentation and we should therewith. I believe that the now debate, considering the Honourable Members have been objectives. I am clarifying this so listening attentively to what the that we can be able to differentiate Minister has been saying. I hope between the First and the Second you also noted the amendments Reading of the Bill because that have been made with regards during the second reading of to the old Act and the new Bill the Bill, that is when we will be that they want to pass as the new taking Clauses, clause by clause. Law. Honourable Members, I

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As for now, all we will be talking clearly explained the objective about is the general merits and of this Bill and I do not have principles of the Bill.I will see any qualms with the way it was by way of raised hands that the explained and the intention of Members want to debate. the amendments that have been proposed. I do, however, believe KGOSI SEEMEKO that there are a few elements (SPECIALLY ELECTED): that we need to pay attention Thank you Mr Chairman. It to. I will explain in detail as we appears like there is no one go clause by clause, on part IV. who wants to debate. Therefore, There is a part which explains I move that we move to the the composition of ex-officio Second Reading of the Bill. membership and that is Dikgosi. Thank you Sir. There is also an explanation that MR CHAIRMAN: I understand Members of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi what you are saying Kgosi selected under section 78(4) of Seemeko. I believe that the the Constitution shall be ex- Rules of Procedure clearly state officio members of the Sub- that if the Chairman considers Council within the region the that passing the proposed motion member represents in Ntlo Ya would be violating the rights of Dikgosi. Doing that may pose the other Members, he may not some challenges since other Sub- agree to such a motion. I do not Councils might end up without want to believe that the Members representatives. I do not want to do not wish to debate, so I shall dwell much on it at this juncture suspend your motion for now so but when we get to the second as to allow other Members to stage that is when I will explain debate. The Minister explained what I mean and cite examples of that at the end of the day, what the Sub- Councils like ours in the is important is the quality of the Kweneng District. Thank you Mr end product. We should take the Chairman. opportunity to air our views so KGOSI SEBOKO (BALETE): that we may not lament in future Thank you Mr Chairman. I would that we were not granted the like to take this opportunity to opportunity. thank the Minister for referring KGOSI KGARI SECHELE the Local Government Bill 2011 III (BAKWENA): Thank you to this House. It is not the first Mr Chairman. The Minister has time that we hear about this Bill.

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We were once briefed about it. status? Another issue that we However; there are a few things have to pay particular attention that I do not understand and I wish to is that of the Members of they could be clarified before we Ntlo Ya Dikgosi being ex-officio start debating. For instance, we members of the Councils. Some know that there are townships Members of this House are in some tribal territories like here by virtue of being voted, in areas where there are mines. so will we not find ourselves in My question is what determines a situation whereby there will a township to be declared such be friction caused between the within a tribal territory? Chief’s Representatives or the Senior Chief’s Representatives, One other issue I am concerned who are of a higher position about is that of the rates that than the Members who represent we are going to be paying in them in this House when it our villages. Even though the comes to their duties? Why are Minister assured me that they we involving the Members of are not going to be very high, I Ntlo Ya Dikgosi in the Councils feel that if it is generalised that whilst we could just leave it to all businesses should pay those the staff at the Ministry of Local rates, we may disadvantage small Government? I take it that this businesses. Perhaps the Minister Bill talks about the districts, the could explain how that issue is Council staff and Dikgosi at the going to be approached. Local Government level and not The Councils accrue funds from at the Office of the President people through tax, when sewage where we fall under as Ntlo Ya pipes are installed people pay tax Dikgosi. Perhaps the Minister for that. People also pay for the should clarify it so that we can collection of garbage from their understand the need to involve homes. Is the intention of this the Members of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi Bill to make people pay rates to stand as ex-officio Members only? Anyway I suppose we shall of the Councils. Thank you Mr address this issue intensively Chairman. during the Second Stage. KGOSI POTSOENG One other issue of concern is that (NGAMI REGION): Thank if Sub-Councils are established you Mr Chairman. I request for in villages, will we not be leaving clarification on Part IV, Section out the ex-officio membership 16 (i) that talks about floor

15 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 crossing. I want him to explain if areas of the Bill that are clear to we would not be contravening the me however, when it comes to Constitution that gives everyone other areas like floor crossing, freedom of expression and free it becomes a bit confusing. This will, if the Bill is prohibiting is basically because it goes an individual from becoming a against what the Constitution member of a different political is saying. It also mentions that party from the one which he/she the Law Enforcement Officers was a member of when he/she are allowed to search when they was elected. The other point that I have made an arrest. However, it wish to be clarified is that of...... also states that the officer should get a search warrant. It is like MR CHAIRMAN: Please there is a contradiction. Perhaps pardon me Kgosi Potsoeng. Let it is something that we should me clarify something so that pay close attention to. It is also we can follow the procedure. mentioned that the Members I explained that the the first of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi can be ex- reading of a Bill is about the officio members of the Councils general merits and the principles representing their regions. A of the Bill. That simply means problem may arise because that the Members will be as it is, there are Senior Chief debating the merits or de-merits Representatives who are already of the Bill in general. What I attending the Council. I suggest have noticed however, is that that we look into this matter the Members are singling out carefully and also to consider the Parts, Sections or Clauses that some Members of Ntlo Ya of the Bill and that reflects that Dikgosi reside in areas where the they are now dealing with the Councils are very far from them. second reading of the Bill. I am appealing to you to talk about KGOSI BOIDITSWE the general merits and principles (SEROWE REGION): Thank of the Bill and we will come you Mr Chairman. There is one to the stage where we will be issue that I wish us to look into dealing with each Clause and and that is the declaration of we shall then give the Minister townships. I have always had the chance to respond to our some concerns regarding this debates. issue and I hope that since it is one of the clauses in this Bill, it KGOSI POTSOENG: Thank will be clarified. you Mr Chairman. There are

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We have got District Councils Anyway, I take it that the issue and Town Councils and as Kgosi that Kgosi Boiditswe was raising Mosadi pointed out earlier on, has been touched on somewhere you get to discover that in some in the presentation. The Minister instances, the Town Council is will clarify the points as we go within the District Council. The along. issue that I do not understand is KGOSI TSHIPE that can an area be declared a (MAHALAPYE REGION): township only when it has got a Thank you Mr Chairman. I would mine? I am asking this because like to thank the Minister for we have got areas like Palapye, referring this Bill to us. Generally, Mahalapye and all the others the Bill brings numerous changes. which are more or less towns and The Minister also pointed out the Councillors from villages that it upgrades the old Law like Shoshong and Tswapong and aims at strengthening the attend the Sub-Council meetings Councils. However, I believe that in these areas. there are a few issues that would Areas like Selebi Phikwe and need clarity as we go Clause Jwaneng have been declared by Clause. Generally I think townships, so, what about other that the Bill upgrades the status areas which have as much of the Councils and gives the developments as these areas? Mr Councillors certain authority to Chairman, you will let me know aid them in the developments of if I have derailed from what we the villages. Therefore, I believe are supposed to be doing but that it will be worthwhile to this it is probably because I have country. Thank you. those concerns when it comes KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH to the declaration of townships. EAST REGION): Thank you Perhaps as we discuss I will be Mr Chairman. I greet you all in able to get an idea of what is this House.I would like to start involved. Thank you. off by indicating that we are very MR CHAIRMAN: Earlier on grateful for this Bill that has been I pointed out that I hope the brought to this House. I believe Honourable Members are able that we all understand that the to make the distinction between duty of the Council is to bring the old Act and this new Bill. I resources to people. It is a form had assumed that as we debate, of decentralization because the we would be comparing the two. Government took what it was

17 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 supposed to be doing and trickled concern is whether in the end this it down to the Local authority so is not going to interfere with our that any form of developments work as Dikgosi. For example, and resources can be nearer to when the Masunga Development the people. I have realized that Plan was done, there was a the Bill tries to cover all the motion that there should be a bases and there are around four Court President for Masunga. Clauses that aroused my interest This was because it was felt that especially when comparing the the village was taking shape along old Law with the new Bill. There the lines of towns and cities, but is one Clause that talks about the we did not agree to that. dissolution of Councils which Another major issue is that the I did not see in the old Law as Mayors have long requested to I perused through but perhaps be given executive powers so it was there and I did not see it. that they can run the Councils but Anyway, to me it appears like I did not notice anything about the powers lie with the Minister that in the new Bill or existing when it comes to dissolving the law. Perhaps they are there and Council. There is also another the Minister will clarify as we Clause that talks about floor go along. Lastly, I am grateful to crossing, it was not there in the the Minister for having reacted old Law and one may wonder to the situation and coming up why they were not included in with this Bill. There has been the old Law because Batswana some confusion and if he had have always enquired about such delayed then it might have led to issues. Perhaps the Minister was some problems. I will expand on prompted by the situation that my interests when we get to the we see happening in our country second reading of the Bill. Thank which can be termed as a litmus you. test in our political arena. KGOSI KAHIKO III We also notice that the Bill (GHANZI WEST REGION): comes with new developments Thank you Mr Chairman. We like declaration of townships. understand the Bill as it has been This is one issue that confuses presented to us. I would like to some of us when it comes to the caution that a Bill is like a double way we have always understood pointed needle that pricks both the separation of powers between the tailor and the cloth; however Bogosi and the Government. The the Bill is very clear. It brings

18 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 some changes even though in and what is happening at the some areas it contravenes what Councils. For a long time this is already in place, like the issue was not the case and it always which was pointed out by Kgosi appeared like the representatives Masunga. here at Ntlo Ya Dikgosi have no idea of what happens at the I had hoped that with regards Councils. This also applies to to the establishment of town the one which allows for the land Councils in tribal territories, board members to be ex-officio it would be clearly stated that at the Councils. I think that is there are people who should be a big improvement. It gives us consulted. Otherwise it might a platform to be able to grasp exclude others from giving their what is happening in terms of opinions. developments in our villages The other issue is that of Law especially since some of us are Enforcement Officers. It is here because we were voted commendable that they have in by the people so that we can been given the authority to represent them. The people vote search, arrest without warrants for our representation because and where necessary they could they realize that we have the apply for warrants. My question potential to represent them is, since well. Mr Chairman, there are other Clauses which I will touch the Law Enforcement Officers on once we get to the Second have been given that authority, Reading of the Bill. Generally, do they have the resources for the Bill will improve a lot of those arrests or they just come things that were otherwise bare handed? Thank you. prohibiting other people to do KGOSI RAMOKWENA their work well. Thank you. (MAUN REGION): Thank KGOSI MONNAATHEBE you Mr Chairman. There are a (THAMAGA REGION): few changes that have grabbed Thank you Mr Chairman. The my attention in this Bill, one of Bill that has just been presented them being that of allowing the by the Minister has improved a Members of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi lot of things that were disabling to be the ex-officio members of us as the Members of Ntlo the Councils. This allows for Ya Dikgosi. We did not have coordination between what the forums where we could talk to Member does in Ntlo Ya Dikgosi

19 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 those whom we represent but are affected because there are as we know, we are supposed to several Sub-Councils and ideally, discuss issues of concern with there should be a Senior Sub- them. I think that this Bill has tribal authority or a Senior Chief come at the right time as it finds Representative in all these areas some of us feeling that we are where there are sub councils. being sidelined when it comes This would assist because they to some things like the Council will be able to participate in the meetings. The same applies to Sub-Council just like the District when Members of Parliament Commissioner and the Council come to hold Kgotla meetings; Secretaries...... (Interruption) you will be just a spectator and MR CHAIRMAN: When I look not having any answers when at the time it indicates to me that the community members inquire we should be adjourning for tea. about the matter. P R O C E E D I N G S This Bill does bring us to a SUSPENDED FOR TEA position where we will be able to execute our mandate as the KGOSI KGAMANE: Thank representatives of Ntlo Ya you Mr Chairman. I was wrapping Dikgosi. Thank you. up when we adjourned. I would like to point out that when a KGOSI KGAMANE Sub-Council was established (BANGWATO): Thank you Mr in my area, it was done in such Chairman. In short I would like an impeccable manner. I am to state that I am grateful for saying this because areas of the Bill that has been brought responsibility for Sub-Councils before us which talks about the do not overlap with our duties amendment of the Law governing and responsibilities as Dikgosi, Councils. It is a good initiative there is a clear dermacation. that I believe is meant to bring That is all I wanted to say before the services closer to the people. we adjourned Mr Chairman. I believe that the position of Thank you. Dikgosi should be the one used to determine who becomes a MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you member of the Council. It should Kgosi Sediegeng Kgamane. The be similar to what is being done siren that we have just heard by the District Commissioner, the signalled that it is time up and Council Secretary and the land that we should enter the House board Chairman. In our area, we and take our seats. May I request

20 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 you Honourable Members that townships if at all there will be when we come back from lunch, proper consultations conducted we should bear in mind that the because it has the potential to siren signals the time that we interfere with Bogosi as the other have agreed upon to start our Members have already said. One proceedings. might presume that it would be suitable to establish a township KGOSI TOTO II in the district when we focus (KGALAGADI SOUTH on newly established villages REGION): Thank you Mr simply because the setup will be Chairman and I am also grateful new and it would not interfere for the Bill that the Minister has with Bogosi’s duties in any way. brought before this House. I As we are all aware, we already should first appeal to the Minister have a couple of Sub-Councils, that whenever they refer Bills to for instance, Kgalagadi District this House for consideration, it Council has two sub councils. should not only be done for the It is a good initiative, however blessing of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi so that I encourage the Government it can be passed. The resolutions not to only focus on creating from this House should also be Sub-Councils but rather we taken into consideration because should also be mindful of the I believe that the Bills are brought fact that there are already some to this House because these are existing sub districts which national issues. I am saying this are fit to be converted to fully because it has happened before fledged districts. We should not that this House did not agree with deny them the opportunity to a certain Bill and it was passed be districts by establishing Sub- anyway. I am not saying that we Councils whereas some of the do not agree with this Bill, I am already existing sub districts are just highlighting some of the well developed and they qualify to issues that we have to consider be fully fledged districts. I heard as we handle Bills. the Minister mentioning that the Mr Chairman, we are grateful Members of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi can that the Government saw it also be ex-officio members of the fit to consolidate the Local Councils. My question is, what Government (District Councils) about the Members of Ntlo Ya Act and the Townships Act. Dikgosi who have been specially Another welcome development elected? Where do they fall when is for the establishment of the we talk about the sub- districts?

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It would have been better if it allowances like the Councillors. had been clearly stated. Lastly Thank you. Mr Chairman, I understand that KGOSI MALEMA (BOBIRWA Councillors as Members of the REGION): Thank you Mr Council.... (Interruption) Chairman. This Bill before MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi Toto, us is very important, more so could you please raise your that developments are a very voice so that we can hear you important aspect of people’s properly. lives. It is very good that Sub Councils have been created and KGOSI TOTO II: Thank you we have hope that in future they Mr Chairman. Lastly I would like will be upgraded to full Councils. to point out that we are aware that It is necessary for that to happen Councillors are members of the since the population is increasing. Councils. However, as the Bill I agree that the Members of Ntlo comes with an amendment that the Ya Dikgosi and the Land board Members of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi are Members can be the Members of going to be ex-officio members the Sub-Councils. I do however of the Councils, according to request that Dikgosi for the me they should all enjoy the villages involved should not be same treatment as Councillors left out. I remember one Member when attending meetings. I am of Parliament jokingly telling me particularly concerned about that they use Dikgosi as ladders situations whereby there would and when they are done with be no transport arrangements them, they discard them. When for some Members of Ntlo Ya the Government comes up with Dikgosi especially those who developments we should be attend Council meetings in the involved so that we do not get left headquarters of those Districts. behind as we have been on other Usually one would be told that issues. I wish for Dikgosi to be the Tribal Administration office Members of the Sub-Councils. will arrange for transportation This will enable them to know for the Member but I do not about the developments in their agree with that. The District villages. Thank you. Council is supposed to arrange for transportation and see to KGOSI GAREBAKWENA it that the transportation and (MOLEPOLOLE REGION): subsistence allowances are paid. Thank you Mr Chairman for They should also enjoy the sitting granting me the opportunity to air

22 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 my views. I am grateful for the for them. That in turn disturbs the Bill that the Minister has brought order within the Council because before this House. The intention that person does not work in of the Government is to provide isolation but rather they work people with services and it can with other people. That is one of be able to do that through Laws. the reasons why I agree with that Laws can simplify situations Clause. When a person chooses but on the other hand they can to represent a certain party in make things very difficult. That the elections, then they should is why we are grateful that the know that they can only move to Minister has come up with this another party after 5 years. This Bill because we can see that it will prevent situations whereby will serve to simplify the way you will be voted in because it the Government takes services is known that you belong to a to the people. I am grateful that certain party but as time goes there is a Clause that allows for on then you change to represent Members of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi a different one or become an to be ex-officio members of the independent candidate. Sub-Councils in their regions. The Minister also mentioned The Members of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi certain Clauses that talk about have been voted for by Dikgosi the power of the Councils to from their respective regions make Bye-Laws. From what I and I take it that they are the deduced from this section, all appropriate people to represent the Bye-Laws made by a Council their regions as they have been which are to be submitted to the voted for by other Dikgosi. Minister for approval shall be The Minister also mentioned the communicated to the community issue of floor crossing. I believe of the area affected not less than that this Bill has come at the four weeks before the submission. appropriate time because the There are a few ways through practice brings about turmoil. A which they shall be notified person would have been voted for and I want to point out that by the people because they trust they overlooked one important him/her to represent them until medium of communication, the next elections; however some which is popular with most of them at times just choose to Batswana, the Radio. We know leave their parties without even that Batswana prefer to listen to consulting the people who voted the radio than to read the Daily

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News, more so that the Daily efforts towards taking the services News never reaches cattleposts to the people and not only that, and far away areas. So, the radio the Government has also ensured should be used as well to inform that the people have a stake in the people about these laws. Mr developments. That is why I am Chairman, it is mentioned that grateful for these committees that the Minister may make model will not be formed as a result of the bye laws. My request is that these Directive of the President. There model Bye-Laws should not be should be a District Development the platform for the Minister to Council that will be responsible make Laws and impose them for convening all the stakeholders upon the Council. in the district at certain points, just the Development Council at I am also grateful that there are the Government level. Perhaps going to be Law Enforcement it can be cascaded down to the Officers as the Bill explains. district level so that some of However, my request is that the developments can go to the they should not operate like the people. The Minister also touched current bye-law officers. On on the duties of the Councils. several occasions, it has become One of the Clauses provides that evident that there is a shortage the council is responsible for any of Bye-Law Officers and even stray animals especially dogs that if they are there, one cannot are believed or suspected to have feel their presence. The Law rabbies. This clause gives them Enforcement Officers should be power to kill dogs. In our areas the type of officers who have you will discover that it is not been trained so as to do their jobs only dogs that can be infected by effectively and their numbers diseases. Therefore, it is vital for should be increased. We all know the Law to include other animals. that if the Law is not enforced If the animal is too weak, even if properly, there is usually turmoil. it cannot infect anyone, perhaps It is for this reason that I say that it should also be killed so that it these Law Enforcement Officers can be saved from the pain it is should be people who are fully going through. Thank you Mr capable of enforcing the Law. Chairman. In the issue of the developments, MR CHAIRMAN: When we I am grateful that the districts and first began in the morning we urban districts are always included. were slow and Kgosi Seemeko I also thank the Government for its

24 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 even ended up moving that we would like to touch on the issue should venture into the second of floor crossing. As Batswana reading. I have now noticed we have a tendency of copying that the Members have started what other people do in their debating the second reading of countries whilst discarding other the Bill. equally important things like this issue of floor crossing. If you can KGOSI SINVULA consider what is happening in (SPECIALLY ELECTED): countries like Britain and others, Thank you Mr Chairman. I am you will realise that floor crossing mainly going to touch on one there is Lawful. Our Constitution or two points concerning the still allows for Councillors and Bye-Laws as the other Member Members of Parliament to cross has already talked about it. I am the floor. I am wondering why grateful because in the past the we want to come up with such Council was the only one which a Bill when we have not yet was responsible for creating amended the Constitution as Bye-Laws and the Minister did this will be going against what not have a say in that. the Constitution is saying. I feel that this Clause is only meant to The new Bill however, states silence other people and to deny that the new Bye-Laws that them the opportunity to express the Council comes up with their feelings. I do not agree with would have to be approved by it at all. the Minister first. Through this arrangement the Minister will Touching on the Clauses that have a chance to consult with talk about the membership of the other Ministries that could Councils, I would like to request possibly advise on the Bye-Laws that the Senior Chiefs of the that the Councils come up with villages should be the ones who before they are approved. I am become ex-officio members of grateful for the Clause as it will the Council. In the Okavango make it possible for the other region, we have got two Sub- stakeholders to have input on the Councils, so how are we going to proposed bye-law. Thank you. ensure that there is representation from Ntlo ya Dikgosi in both KGOSI LEMPADI sub councils? I am saying this (OKAVANGO REGION): because in my region I am the Thank you Mr Chairman for only Member of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi granting me a chance to speak. I

25 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 except in instances where we can be the members of the Sub- get a Specially Elected Kgosi. Councils. For example, from my If the senior Chiefs from those region of Tonota, there are two villages attended the Council Sub-Districts being Mmadinare/ meetings then it would make Bobirwa and Tonota. When the things easier. I do agree with the Sub-Council is about to meet suggestion by Kgosi Sediegeng they both invite me to their Sub- Kgamane that Senior Chiefs Council meetings. I am usually should be representatives of their left in a difficult position and I villages in the Sub-Councils. It often resort to requesting Kgosi should not only be the Members Radipitse from Tonota who of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi. Other regions represents the Sub-District to do not have sub-land boards and attend the Sub-Council. Those I am wondering what is going to from Mmadinare/Bobirwa be done in those circumstances. would also be expecting me Thank you Mr Chairman. to attend. This ends up posing a challenge to us Members of KGOSI SEELETSO (TONOTA Ntlo Ya Dikgosi who are from REGION): Thank you Mr regions with two Sub-Districts. Chairman. I am grateful for the At present Kgosi who belongs to Clause that allows Dikgosi to that Sub-District can only attend be ex-officio members of even the sub-Council when he/she is the sub-councils. Perhaps this free and available. will serve to bring together the different components of Local That is why I am requesting that Government since they have the Senior Chief Representatives been separate from one another. should also be allowed to attend For instance, the District Officer, the Sub-Councils as they are the Land Board and Dikgosi have the leaders in those districts. been operating as if they are not As Kgosi Lempadi has already from one Ministry. This move pointed out, we are not enough. will serve to enlighten us on what A Member of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi is happening at the Councils. would be representing the whole region which might consist I want to reiterate what Kgosi of two or three Sub-Councils. Lempadi has just said and Thank you. emphasise that it could have been arranged that Senior Sub- KGOSI MOREMI Tribal Authorities (SSTA) or (BATAWANA): Thank you Mr Senior Chief Representative Chairman. Allow me to debate

26 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 on the Bill that has been brought with their candidates and the before us by the Minister. I individual might end up being would like to touch on the issue expelled from the party, it is only of Members of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi appropriate that the individual becoming ex-officio members has the freedom to choose where of the Council. I think that the they want to go next. Thank you most appropriate thing to do Mr Chairman. would be for the Senior Chief MR CHAIRMAN: I believe Representatives to become that the Honourable Members the members. I am saying this have expressed themselves in because when Section 78 of detail in the First Reading of the the Act was amended, it was Bill whose purpose was to debate emphasised that being Members the general merits and principles of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi should not of the Bill. Since the Minister interfere with the way things are was listening to the comments, done at the district level. We also I will give him a few minutes wish that in circumstances where to say anything if he so wishes I am unable to attend the Council, before we move on to the next then I should be able to delegate stage of the Bill. I am saying this Mothusa Kgosi. S/he should be because as we have been going able to go and represent me at on, some Members pointed out the Council, if at all there are that they needed clarifications important issues being discussed on a few issues and that is why that I wish to know about. I am allowing for that before we There should also be terms of move to the next stage, which is reference as to how the executive the Second Reading. committees composed of the Council Chairpersons are going MINISTER OF LOCAL to operate. When it comes to the GOVERNMENT (HON. issue of Councillors changing MOKALAKE): Thank you Mr to a different political party Chairman and thank you to all after being elected or specially the Members who have made nominated to a Council, I believe a contribution. I believe that I that everyone should be allowed shall be able to explain most of to be free to become a member the issues in the next stage and of a party they want, just as the I will take only a few points for Constitution talks about freedom now. Perhaps I should start off by of association. At times some assuring Kgosi Toto that the Bill parties might have a fall out has not been brought here as mere

27 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 formality, the Law does require even when you take a look at the for relevant Bills to be brought to ballot papers, only the name of this House for advice. The Law the party is written and not that also continues to state that the of the individual. resolutions from this House can Batswana are complaining about be adopted or not but even if they this issue and it is true that the are not adopted, it does not mean Law has remained unchanged that consultations of this nature for quite some time but as the should cease to happen. It is still current Minister, I feel that it is one way of correcting things. time for the change to be made. One other issue that was also We have been voted into these raised by numerous speakers was two Housesso that we can look that of floor crossing, a question at these Laws as the Members of was asked whether this means Parliament and Dikgosi. If Laws that the Minister is feeling the were made and left there without pinch. The truth of the matter is being challenged or changed, that there is no Motswana who is then there would not be any not affected by these acts of floor use for us to attend Parliament. crossing. As politicians we first The purpose for us meeting as contest in the primary elections a Parliament is to look at these as individuals. In the next stage Laws and there will be days when of elections, the people vote for we look into Laws that some of the party and not the individual. us do not want to change. On My point is when the party does other occasions, we will consider not cross, who am I to cross the ones that other people want the floor and leave it? When I changed. Those are some of the cross the floor, the party that the points I wanted to clarify before people voted for still remains we continue. Mr Chairman, there as a representative in their area is a point which I think one of and so we are saying that in the Honourable Member did not circumstances like these, people understand clearly. It is about should be consulted to see whether townships. Initially, areas which they stand with the individual had minerals were the ones or the party. The fact remains which were declared townships. that when the individual was Areas like in Jwaneng, Sowa and campaigning he/she would have Selebi Phikwe...... been using the party’s manifesto HONOURABLE MEMBER: and not that of the individual and Orapa.

28 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011

H O N O U R A B L E One other issue that was MOKALAKE: Orapa in a repeatedly raised was that way, but it is different to other of Dikgosi being ex-officio townships in the sense that it members of the Councils. It is does not have a Council. Perhaps clear that most of you do not wish in areas like Palapye, Letlhakane for the ex-officio membership of and Orapa we can use the same Dikgosi at the Sub-Councils to be principle but however, in other applicable to the Membership of areas where there are minerals we Ntlo ya Dikgosi. It should rather did not use that principle. There be about the hierarchy of Bogosi is an outcry in instances whereby in those areas. I understand what we look at the procedures which you are saying and I don’t have at times become more technical any reason to refute it. If it is and more involving. In those what you want whole heartedly instances we would then be then, I do not have a problem forced to consider whether with it. where necessary, we can declare I take it that we have got many a township even in areas where Sub-Councils and you could there are no minerals. perhaps approach us to explain With areas like Selebi Phikwe, how your situation is and come we considered the mineral up with suggestions on how the exploitation there and declared problem can be solved. Some it a township. That changed the of you as Members of Ntlo Ya village setup that had originally Dikgosi might be lower in the been there. Other people often hierarchy of Bogosi in your areas point out that areas like Ramotswa and to others it might become or Molepolole have grown an issue of why are you being tremendously and at times ask allowed to be a representative why they have not been declared at the Council as well? Let me towns. The question would be stop there Mr Chairman and wait what really constitutes a town? We for us to venture into the second do sit down and consider places reading of the Bill, where we are which we can declare towns now going to get into detail about even though there is no mineral each Clause. Thank you. exploitation in those areas. I take MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you it that I have clarified on this issue Honourable Minister, I believe and we shall talk about it again as that we shall now continue. we continue.

29 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading LOCAL GOVERNMENT Clauses and so instead, we shall BILL, 2011 (No. 3 of 2011) begin on B11. Second Reading PART I, Preliminary MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you. The first Clause talks about the In this part of the Bill we will short title and commencement. be referring to our Rules of If the Members have anything Procedure, Rule 43 Sub Rule they wish to debate on, then I 5 which reads thus; “When the will see by way of raised hands. Second Reading of a Bill is taken, If there are no raised hands, then the Chairperson shall move that it means that we agree with it and the Bill be read the second time we move on to the next Clause. and then call the number of each The next one explains what Clause or any group of Clauses the Bill is referred to as and its in succession. On each Clause date of commencement. Is there or a group of Clauses being so anyone who has any comment called, a debate may arise, on regarding this first section? I do the question, covering the details not think there is anyone and so of the Clause or Clauses called. we all agree with that section. Any Schedules to a Bill shall be In this Clause, the words that dealt with in the same manner have been used in the Bill are as Clauses. At the conclusion of interpreted or defined. I am not such debate, no question shall going to call out each word but in be put and the question on the essence those are the main words motion shall be deemed to have that have been used in this Bill been agreed to”. This means and their explanations. that in this stage we are going to KGOSI MONTSHIWA look at the Bill clause by clause. (KGALAGADI NORTH Where possible, we shall group REGION): Thank you Mr them together. As explained, Chairman. I want us to look at at the end of each debate, no the definition of Kgosi as it is question shall be put and the in the Bogosi Act, and compare question on the motion shall be it to what we have in the Bill deemed to have been agreed to. especially since the Members In other words we shall continue moved that the Senior Chief to discuss each Clause and not Representatives should also be generalize as we did during the allowed to be members of the First Reading. The first pages Sub-Councils as they are part of talk about the arrangement of

30 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading the Bogosi Institution. Is it like House. The definition of a Kgosi that in this Act? Thank you Mr is clear but on the other hand we Chairman. should understand that the High Court or the Court of Appeal, I H O N O U R A B L E am not sure which court it was MOKALAKE: I do not mean between the two, but it declared to derail you Mr Chairman. that in the Constitution there is However, I did not deem it no such a position as a Kgosi necessary to come up with a new kgolo. Will this not affect us in definition for a Kgosi. That is why terms of our procedures in the we use the one that has always future? We should bear in mind been there that has mandated us that it is the court that made that to be here as Dikgosi. We shall pronouncement and I take it be using the definitions that are that at this hour, since it has not in the Bogosi Act unless we been challenged, it means that insist and therefore meaning that the definition stands. The main we have to go back to the Bogosi issue that I am concerned about Act and change the definition is the way we plan, is it not going there. We did not want to go that to affect any future planning far Mr Chairman. The motion system or the way we are going that talked about Senior Chief to interpret certain things in our Representatives being members governance? That is all I wanted of the Councils is clear and we to say Mr Chairman. understand what it means with regards to this Bill. I am not sure MINISTER OF LOCAL if you also want us to include the GOVERNMENT (HON. definition of the Senior Chief MOKALAKE): Thank you Mr Representative in the Bill as well Chairman. I think we will be but we just assumed that it can be bogged down in a definition that found in the Bogosi Act. is not necessarily of importance right now. I am saying this KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH because when one speaks about EAST REGION): I want to touch the judgement meted about the on what the Minister has just said. Kgosi kgolo and so on, some of I will talk a bit about one issue us would feel that that was a very which is before the court. Do not trivial matter. In fact the court get me wrong, my intention is should not have wasted time not to bring any sort of disrepute on deciding whether someone to this House or to cause tensions is a Kgosi kgolo or a Kgosi. It but it is for the interest of this

31 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading was so trivial; it was said out of even though we are advised respect. For now, the definition not to dwell on it since it is a of a Kgosi kgolo is used out of definition which is in the Bogosi respect. We do not have such a Act. I agree with the Minister that position in the Bogosi Act and the definition should be taken as we use such an expression out of it is in the Act. I would also like respect to our Dikgosi especially to add that we should not confuse with regards to our hierarchy for matters as Moemela Kgosi and Dikgosi in our Setswana culture. Senior Chief Representative are We might end up going in circles not the same, these are different and even resorting to asking the positions. We should also take Learned Counsel to read for us the definitions as they have been from the Bogosi Act even though given in the Bogosi Act. it is not necessary since we took I wanted to suggest that if at all the interpretation as it is in the we agree that the Senior Chief Bogosi Act. This is just like Representative should be ex- deducing a definition as it is from officio members of the Council, the Oxford Dictionary. then that is when we can perhaps The fact that in the Bill we have include the definitions of those used the words like Senior Chief in the Bill. The Minister should Representative does not matter also not confuse himself by as we are all aware of what these assuming that they know how the positions mean in our Bogosi. Bogosi hierarchy is because it is It is possible that anyone can not always the case that one is challenge anything and that is referred to correctly. I am saying why the Lawyers say that, ‘Law this because there are instances is an art and anybody can write in some situations where I have it.’ One may choose to change the been referred to as Mmaetsho spelling of Bogosi and say that even though I am in a higher we should use a capital letter, all position whilst the Headman that is possible. All I am saying is referred to as Kgosi. These is, let us move forward because things do happen and we are just we are all aware that Kgosi has saying that the Minister should got all those who follow him/her help to make it clear legally that in a hierarchy. the Bogosi hierarchy does exist. Thank you. KGOSI SEBOKO (BALETE): Thank you Mr Chairman. I want MR CHAIRMAN: Thank to add something to this issue you, Kgosi Mosadi Seboko.

32 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading You remind me of an incident where there are Councillors from that occurred just this morning, the opposition parties, there is someone referred to me as Mr no Leader of the Opposition. Gaborone but referred to one of During the last meeting we were my assistants as Kgosi Gaborone. reliably informed that the Law Let us continue Honourable was still being looked into and Members and agree that the whilst it was still being looked definition of Kgosi is as it is in into, others implemented what the Bogosi Act. I believe that in was being discussed. I am one of the Bill they have just indicated the people who left the meeting that the term Kgosi will be used knowing that Councils are no as it is in the Bogosi Act. Perhaps longer led by Chairpersons but when we get to the part where we rather by Mayors. The Bill that agree who should be the Members has just been presented shows of the Council, then that is when something on the contrary to we can clearly distinguish the what I thought was the status hierarchy of Bogosi. quo. It is confusing when you take the interpretation of the KGOSI BOIDITSWE word ‘Chairperson,’ and the word (SEROWE REGION): Thank ‘Mayor’ because both words you Mr Chairman. I believe have a similar interpretation. that we are still in the section What is the difference between that shows the interpretation a Chairperson leading a District of terms. I want us to look at Council and a Mayor leading a the interpretation of the term Town Council? Chairperson and it reads as follows: “Chairperson means As I have pointed out, the political head of a District Council interpretation of the words or Subordinate Authority who ‘Chairperson’ and ‘Mayor’ are chairs the Council of Subordinate very similar. So what is wrong Authority”. When you look at with just adopting one word. the interpretation of the word We once enquired about it and Mayor, it is the same as that of the Minister gave us an answer the word ‘Chairperson.’ The which clarified that there is not interpretation shows that both much difference between the words refer to a political head. two responsibilities. As we look When you look at the situation at this Bill, we should also pay at the Councils, there is no leader attention to these interpretations from the opposition parties. Even because as it is, there are two

33 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading words which mean the same on to ‘of a District Council’ and thing. When a cow is black one continued to read on to ‘mayor cannot turn around and say that it means the political head of a city is not. Thank you Mr Chairman. or town’ you would have noticed that, that is where the difference MR CHAIRMAN: The is. We should also not confuse difference is that a cow cannot be these titles with parties, the a Mayor or a Chairperson. Mayor or the Chairperson can H O N O U R A B L E be someone from an opposition MOKALAKE: Thank you Mr party. Councillors are treated Chairman. If Kgosi had gone equally with no regard for which a step further, he would have party they belong to or even realised the difference between whether he/she is an independent the interpretations of the two candidate or not. The individual words. Perhaps I should clarify would be just a Council leader that during our consultations with just as we have the Chairman of you and other stakeholders, we Ntlo Ya Dikgosi. He is the leader were of the notion that the word of this House. Thank you. ‘Mayor’ should be used in both MR CHAIRMAN: I believe the District Councils and Town that we have dealt with the part Councils. This was because we on interpretations. I do not see were considering that we had anyone indicating that they still developed a lower level layer wish to have clarification about and as such we had to show a something on Clause 2 of this distinction that the Chairman Bill. If that is the case then we would now be going to the lower should continue with Part 2 level. During our consultations, of our Bill that talks about the the idea was rejected simply Establishment of Councils. because the stakeholders said they were used to having the Part 2 - Establishment of Chairperson of a Town Council Councils being referred to as a Mayor and Clause 3 – agreed to. the Chairperson for a District Council as a Chairperson. It Clause 4: Council for each was decided to be left as is for Administrative District history purposes. Looking at I do not see any indication to the definitions they say that debate Clause 4. It also consists ‘chairperson means the political of Part 1 and 2. head’. If you had read further

34 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading KGOSI SEBOKO (BALETE): care of them but it cannot be Thank you Mr Chairman. easy since they are far from you. Looking at Clause 4 (2), it talks Even when there are meetings to about boundaries which will be held in their tribal territory, not necessarily be aligned with they are would not go because tribal territories and I believe at times the meeting would that the Minister will appreciate not be hosted by their Member that there are instances whereby of Parliament and that makes a tribal territory is divided them feel as if they are being into two when demarcating alienated. I am not sure if I am boundaries. The other part of making much sense but I believe the tribal territory would fall that the issue needs to be given into another tribal territory and attention and when demarcating this situation causes confusion. borders, priority should be to There are villages from my area ensure that the community does that have been made to fall under not end up being divided. I do the South East North District not know if my point is clear, which falls under the Member perhaps the Chairman can help of Parliament for Tlokweng. me. Thank you. This set up really makes things MR CHAIRMAN: I believe difficult for us especially when it that the Minister has understood comes to issues of culture and so you. One example that I can cite on. I request that we look into this is when a Member of Parliament issue and see how we can manage for Tlokweng attends matters of it. The population census will be Bolux Company in Ramotswa carried out soon. In the past, the just because it falls under the South East District boundaries South East North District. were made to try and create a Honourable Minister, would you balance looking at the statistics. like to clarify anything on that I should point out though that point? this affected my area because the people who were supposed MINISTER OF LOCAL to have been in my jurisdiction GOVERNMENT (HON. are now under the Tlokweng MOKALAKE): Thank you Mr territory. It is at times difficult Chairman. It is important for me for them to work with Dikgosi to clarify the point that Kgosi in Tlokweng especially because Seboko has raised. Allow me of cultural differences. I believe to read what the Clause says, that Kgosi Gaborone does take “Notwithstanding the provisions

35 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading of sub-section (1), in establishing Honourable Minister, could Councils, the Minister may not you please switch off your necessarily align administrative microphone. boundaries with tribal territories”. KGOSI BOIDITSWE: I was As you earlier on pointed that the just saying that attention should Minister should try to demarcate be given to Kgosi Seboko’s borders such that people who words. This would help to belong together remain together prevent even clashes in the in the same district and I must political arena as we often hear assure you that we are trying to that people transport voters do that. Where it is difficult to from one territory to another attain that we end up establishing and that can be attributed to this Councils like the one we have demarcation of borders. These between Balete and Batlokwa. are problems that we sometimes These are situations where at see Mr Chairman, and you might times the Council encompasses discover that even during this two tribal territories. In other demarcation of borders there situations we establish a Council was no consultation with the within another as we did in relevant stakeholders. I believe Jwaneng, it is a Council within that Dikgosi should be part of the Bangwaketse territory and the consultations when it comes hence there are two Councils. to this demarcation of borders. You do make a valid point that This would in turn help in case where possible, we should not any problems arise in future. divide tribal territories for easy Secondly, even during the administrative purposes. The elections, people take the voters main important thing is that we to vote in territories that they try to do that and that is why are not supposed to be voting at. we used the word “may.” Thank After the elections you hear talks you. about people stealing voters and KGOSI BOIDITSWE you find that people would tell (SEROWE REGION): I would you that they were not aware of like to emphasise that, even such demarcations. Thank you. though I have heard the Minister’s MR CHAIRMAN: Let us response, Kgosi Seboko’s words remember that even as we debate should be given due attention … there is another stage where we MR CHAIRMAN: Please are going to be coming up with pardon me Kgosi Boiditswe. resolutions. We should not just be

36 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading talking for the sake of it but rather Clause 4 – agreed to. we should jot down what we are Clause 5 – agreed to. saying as well so that we can end up with resolutions that will show Clause 6: Establishment of our position as Ntlo Ya Dikgosi. Subordinate Authorities Let us also be encouraged to be KGOSI POTSOENG (NGAMI time conscious. REGION): Thank you Mr H O N O U R A B L E Chairman. Mine is just a concern MOKALAKE: Please pardon because on Clause 6 it says “The me Mr Chairman. I want to clarify Minister may, in consultation something on the issue that was with the respective Council raised by Kgosi Boiditswe. If we by order published in the bring politics into the issue of Gazette, establish Subordinate the demarcation of boundaries, Authorities which shall consist then we would be talking about of the Chairperson, Deputy a third type of a boundary. There Chairperson and Members of the are the Tribal territories, and Council may by order published the administrative territories. in the Gazette issue a schedule of They can be there in one place functions that various levels of but serving different purposes. Councils may perform as set out When talking about politics in schedule I.” My request is that there is a third boundary which consultations should not only is not even done by the Minister be carried out in Councils but it of Local Government. There is should include the community as a committee that is tasked with well. The community is the one that and it declares the limitations which will give the Minister that and determines where one authority apart from the Council. politician begins and ends. They Thank you. do not consider the origins of the MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you individual but instead they look Kgosi Potsoeng. I do not think at the population of the area and there is anyone who wishes to the amount of the responsibility debate and the Minister does not facing that Member of Parliament appear to have anything to clarify or the Councillor. Thank you. and I believe that this shows that MR CHAIRMAN: Let us he agrees that consultation should proceed; we have dealt with include the community as well. Clause 4. Clause 6 – agreed to.

37 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading Clause 7: Declaration of especially since he would only township be consulting with the Councils. Just as one Honourable Member KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Thank has already pointed out, there you Mr Chairman. I need should be consultations with the clarification where the Clause community on all that affects reads “The Minister may by them. I also want him to explain order, where he/she considers that to us what qualifies a place to it is proper and fitting to confer be called a township? How the status of a city on a town different is it from a village? or township, declare that town This would make it easier for or township to be a city which everyone to understand what shall have all the rank, liberties, it takes to declare a place a privileges and immunities as township. We also want to be are incidental to a city, and may clear on the processes because it define the limits of that City”. appears like townships are led by What does the word ‘limits’ Court Presidents. Who appoints mean? Thank you Mr Chairman. the Court President in that MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable position? How does the Court Minister, please explain the word President work with the leaders ‘limits’ before we continue. of the community? I believe that H O N O U R A B L E the explanation would serve to MOKALAKE: Thank you Mr clarify a lot of points. Thank Chairman. As I have explained you Mr Chairman the word ‘Limits’ simply means MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable boundaries in this case. It just Minister, what qualifies a place states that when Council is set to be declared a township? up, it will be covering a certain MINISTER OF LOCAL area and not beyond. GOVERNMENT (HON. MR CHAIRMAN: It is just to MOKALAKE): A Township is mark boundaries. declared after having considered KGOSI SEBOKO: Thank a lot of points. It does not mean you Mr Chairman. Perhaps that it is the sole responsibility the Minister could explain of the Minister. It might be an to us what would be guiding initiative of the people of that area, him when he declares an area requesting for it to be declared a like Seuwane to be a township township. There are people in without any consultations other places who have submitted 38 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading requests for their areas to be KGOSI TELEKELO declared townships because they (MOSHUPA REGION): Thank were considering the advantages. you Mr Chairman. I understand It enables the Councillors and the Minister’s explanation. I just the community to take certain want to know whether if a village decisions and implement them. like Kanye is declared a township, When that town Council is does it mean that Kgosi Malope’s allocated a budget, they allocate Membership for Ntlo Ya Dikgosi the funds towards the planned ceases to exist? I am asking this developments together. We must because as I look around there is bear in mind that as time goes no Kgosi here who comes from on, these big districts are going a township. Are townships meant to be reduced because people for that? Thank you. prefer the services to come closer KGOSI BOIDITSWE: We are to them. There will always be still on the issue of townships. challenges as we try and bring Whilst we are on this subject, I services closer to the people. It would like to caution that when is not only the Minister who can declaring townships, it should be ask for declaration of a township, noted that there is livestock in at times it is the community. For these areas. Once the livestock is example, the Palapye community in the habit of grazing at a certain has long been asking for Palapye place, then it will always go back to be declared a township. to tha place even if it is moved. Motions on this issue are always That problem should be rectified brought to the Council. At times it because we see such occurrences is difficult to establish a township even in Gaborone. You will at due to massive cost implications times notice livestock in certain like putting infrastructures in areas because they are used to place and so forth. I will not go the fact that it used to be their in detail about what is needed in grazing area. My suggestion the establishment of a township. to the Minister is that the Laws There are townships that we can against livestock in towns should benchmark from, like Selebi not be so stringent when places Phikwe, Sowa and Jwaneng are first declared townships townships. We know the because animals would still be difference between those places used to grazing in that area. The and other areas which are not Minister should pay attention townships. Thank you. to this Clause that talks about

39 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading declaration of townships and he for cattle to be seen roaming should also consider the type around the City, because they of areas that are declared as were not there when Gaborone townships. There should be a was first established. Bye-Laws thorough research before a place are established by Councils is declared a township just in case after holding consultations with we find our livestock displaced. members of the community. Thank you. We also consult before we approve such Bye-Laws. There MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable are reasons why livestock is not Minister, perhaps you would like allowed in towns or big villages. to comment on Kgosi Telekelo In small villages people may and Kgosi Boiditswe’s debates. be against implementation of H O N O U R A B L E Bye-Laws because they may be MOKALAKE: To touch on relying on livestock for milk and what Kgosi Boiditswe has just other products. In major villages said, I would like to point out like Kanye and Molepolole, that declaration of a township is we do not want livestock there not new. The Law has been in because even though they are existence for along time, the only not townships. Bye-Laws are difference is that the old Law established for villages as well. emphasised that townships are for Thank you. mineral exploitation only. Initially MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable places that were located near the Minister, I believe that Kgosi mines were referred to as locations. Telekelo had enquired whether The idea was that where there are by declaring a place a township minerals, there should be special does not mean that an individual’s procedures that will be at par with membership in Ntlo Ya Dikgosi the developments in that area. We is compromised. should not take this as a new Law. It has always been there but was H O N O U R A B L E never abused in any way. If at all it MOKALAKE: Thank you. To would have been abused, then we declare a place a town or township would not be having places where does not have anything to do there is mining taking place still with Bogosi just like it has got no remaining as villages. bearing on the tribal territories. I do not think it can affect Kgosi On the issue of livestock, I can Kgolo in any way, and mind you only say that it will be improper I am using the word Kgosi Kgolo

40 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading reservedly, out of respect. Kgosi I also want to touch on the Kgolo will remain as one even if point that the Minister made there can be a million townships when explaining what qualifies in his/her territory. a place to be called a township. He mentioned that a place had PROCEEDINGS to have a mine in order to be SUSPENDED FOR LUNCH declared a township and we MR CHAIRMAN: Good saw Ghanzi being declared a afternoon Honourable Members, township even though it does not Honourable Minister as well as have a mine. I do not understand the Secretaries present. Let us the reasons for declaring Ghanzi continue with our programme. a township. Even when you look When we adjourned for lunch we at the history of the area, there were still on Section 7 of our Bill is no mention of any group of on the Declaration of Townships. people who requested for Ghanzi If I remember well there were to be a township. Having lots certain points that the Honourable of townships will overshadow Members had already raised with Bogosi. When you consider a regards to this Clause and the village like Serowe, there are sub Minister had also responded. districts, when you declare them townships, even though you do KGOSI KAHIKO III not eradicate Bogosi in that area, (GHANZI WEST REGION): you would be destroying it from Thank you Mr Chairman. Section the roots. We should really look 7 gives the Minister the authority into this issue because when you to declare any place within any turn villages into townships, administrative district to be a the Bogosi procedure changes. township. This is a valid Clause There is neither Senior Chief but it needs to be amended like Representative nor Headman; it the one we amended earlier on will be just the Court President. where we were requesting that Let us look into these things and consultations should not only be see if they will have no bearing with the District Council. The in the Bogosi procedure. Thank reason I am saying this is that you. there would be people in that area, including their Bogosi. If KGOSI RAMOKONE they are not involved in planning, (KANYE REGION): Thank then that is going to cause conflict you Mr Chairman. I want to amongst them. understand the criterion that

41 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading is used to qualify a place as a be changes here and there as we township. I take it that for one to go along developing Botswana. declare a township, they would It might help to sit down and be looking at the infrastructure consider how some things fit and the population. I hear that into our system. Some things wherever a mine comes into being were not there when this country then that place is then converted first came into being but we sat into a township. The Minister down and considered them and will clarify if I am wrong. To eventually implemented them. emphasise Kgosi Telekelo’s Then we shaped a way for them question, I am also concerned to fit into our nation. about the effect this will have Establishing a township does on Bogosi. Unless it is put in not have to affect the standard writing, then perhaps it will not of Bogosi. We have got reasons affect Bogosi because otherwise why in some places we have some political hot head, being a got Court Presidents and so Mayor in a township, might end on. That is usually in places up assuming all the power and where there are people from disregarding Bogosi. These are different places and having no some of the things that we should Kgosi in that particular area. take into consideration because if In those areas we then resort someone can do that, they would to placing civil servants to be be mandated by the Act and there Court Presidents. In Britain will be nothing we can do. Let us there are towns everywhere but pay attention to that. Thank you there are Dikgosi in those places Mr Chairman. as well. Queen Elizabeth is the MINISTER OF LOCAL Paramount Queen. The situation GOVERNMENT (HON. that we are concerned about can MOKALAKE): I will start be handled by the Members of with the last point that Kgosi Ntlo Ya Dikgosi as time goes on mentioned. If you can revisit to see how we can develop the page 7 on paragraphs 4; 2, I take set up in order to accommodate it that it is the one which clarifies the possible changes that might a lot of things. It explains that occur. I agree with Kgosi Kahiko establishment of townships or on the issue of consultation. rather Councils should not affect There should be consultation the Bogosi of that area in any with the nation or community way, even though there might and not just the Council. I have

42 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading noted your concerns on that one to act in consultation with the and I agree with your suggestion. community. Ghanzi is not the only place that MR CHAIRMAN: If we all has been declared a township agree that the main word should even though it does not have a be consultation then we can mine, Kasane is also one such move on. place. These are the areas that were declared townships during KGOSI SEBOKO (BALETE): the times when Botswana was Thank you Mr Chairman. I still colonized. They were agree with you when you talk declared as townships because about consultation. I sometimes they were in the state land. become concerned because I am Other areas have long had fully wondering if at all we are using fledged Councils but they have the word consultation correctly. I been treated like villages, even am saying this because at times though they should have long someone will come and tell you been declared as towns. The what they plan to do and call it rates should have even been consultation. That being the case charged in those areas a long then, I suggest that it should be time back but that has not been made clear to the Minister that the case. When you look at our when we talk about consultation, regulations, you will notice we are talking about where he that the regulations governing will come and talk to us about Ghanzi are quite different from any plans that they have to do, those of other villages in this get our opinions and consolidate country. Those are the points them into the plan. This will avoid that I wanted to clarify. situations where the Minister will come and tell us what he is MR CHAIRMAN: We are now going to do but rather show us done with Clause 7 and we shall that our wishes have been taken now go to 7; 2 that talks about into consideration. Thank you. consultation which the Members have been complaining about. MR CHAIRMAN: Let us bear in mind that we are still going to KGOSI RAMOKWENA do the resolutions and I believe (MAUN REGION): Thank that some of these suggestions you Mr Chairman. I think will be captured at the resolutions that Clauses 6 to 8 are related stage. We will clearly state what because they all talk about the consultation means as this House. fact that the Minister is supposed

43 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading KGOSI BOIDITSWE governance and so on. I believe (SEROWE REGION): I would that they do speak and it is just like us to look at the part which that what they say is not covered talks about the general duties of and shared with the public. So, the Council. There have been my request is that this Bill should concerns that we are too focused have a clause which will ensure on talking about Bogosi and that the voice of Dikgosi is heard therefore it might appear like we so that it can be clear that they do not understand what the Bill are concerned about the general is all about. We talk about Bogosi duties that affect their villages, because it is the leadership of the the health, security and so forth. villages and even though we are Thank you. aware that Dikgosi Kgolo are MR CHAIRMAN: I was still Members of Councils, there are writing what Kgosi Boiditswe some things that at times happen was saying so that I do not that cause for their presence to be forget. Honourable Members, somewhat obscure. We are not may I request that when we talk sure if at all they have an input about Clauses, we should ensure when they attend these meetings that we focus on what the Clause because we never get to hear is about. I believe that when their comments at the Council we talk about coverage, we are meetings. I am concerned about talking about something that is this because it appears like they not even related to the general are not even aware of these duties of the Councils. Let us general duties. I am requesting focus on what we are talking that this anomaly should be about but since you have already corrected and their voice should spoken Kgosi Boiditswe I shall be heard. All the issues that allow the Minister to respond to are discussed at the Councils your words. concern their villages and what is bothersome is that you never MINISTER OF LOCAL get to hear their comments in the GOVERNMENT (HON. news. This happens even though MOKALAKE): Thank you Mr the Law allows them to say Chairman. I take it that Kgosi something on different issues that has debated well. This Clause arise during the Council meeting simply talks about the duties of and also to contribute in the the Council. The minutes that promotion of health, safety well are taken during the Council being, good order, security, good meetings are the ones that reflect

44 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading the names of the people who advanced by the other Members spoke during the meeting. The like Kgosi Lempadi and Kgosi issue is that this part is talking Seeletso. For example, when about the responsibility of the you consider a region like Council and when you speak the one represented by Kgosi about the responsibility of Ntlo Garebakwena in Ntlo Ya Dikgosi, Ya Dikgosi we cannot single which is referred to as the out one individual. I take it that Molepolole Region, it falls under Kgosi has clearly explained it. the Molepolole Administration Authority/Lentsweletau Sub- Part 4- Constitution of District as it is currently the case. Councils We have been informed however KGOSI KGARI SECHELE that in future the intention is III (BAKWENA): Are we on for each area to stand alone. Clause 12, Mr Chairman? As Currently the status quo allows I had explained earlier on, I for a Member of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi think we need to pay attention to become an ex-officio member to some things. I want us to talk of a Sub-Council but once about 12 (5) that talks about the they are divided it means that Members of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi a Member of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi selected under Section 78 (4) of who comes from Molepolole our Constitution who shall be the will have to go and attend a Sub- ex-officio members of the Sub- Council in Lentsweletau and that Councils. Mr Chairman when might not sit well with Dikgosi the Sub-Districts are declared, in Lentsweletau. Maybe one of they are not declared having Dikgosi from that area should considered the regions that are attend the Sub-Council. represented in Ntlo Ya Dikgosi. Still on the issue of the The districts were declared to Molepolole region, let me cite make it easier for Councils to an example of a village within take services to the people. The the region represented in Ntlo regions of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi were Ya Dikgosi called Tloaneng. If not even considered as they have it can so happen that a Headman nothing to do with the Councils. from Tloaneng is elected, then That having been said, I do not he would be forced to represent think it will be a good move for the Molepolole Administration the Members of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi Authority and also to become to be ex-officio members of the an ex-officio member in Councils. Reasons have been

45 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading Lentsweletau. If it happens that also have telephones; if Kgosi is the Sub-District is divided into not present his secretaries can two, then Tloaneng village will always get the message on his now fall under the Mogoditshane behalf. They even have access to Sub-District. This then means that transport, for example, if Kgosi the Headman would be forced to in Gabane has to attend a Sub- attend three Sub-Councils in the Council in Mogoditshane they Mogoditshane, Molepolole and can always use a Government Lentsweletau areas. If the Sub- vehicle, if they do not have Councils sit at the same time their own means of transport. then it would be impossible for There are a lot of things that I him to attend all of them. believe justify my request Mr Chairman, and so I hope that There are Senior Chief’s the Members who were not Representatives already at the comfortable with this proposal Sub-District Councils, and if this initially do now understand why Clause can be changed to say I am proposing that the Senior that they should be the ex-officio Chief’s Representative should members of the Councils, then it be the ones who attends the Sub- would make things simpler. If it Council meetings. Thank you. so happens that there is no Kgosi of that position, then a Chief’s KGOSI MOROKA representative can attend. If a (TSWAPONG REGION): district has got numerous Senior Thank you Mr Chairman. I wish Chief Representatives then they to have a say regarding Clause can all attend or they can choose 12 of this Bill that has been laid one representative amongst before us. I have considered themselves. I take it that if we what is written on this Clause can do that Mr Chairman then regarding the representation Bogosi would be adequately of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi Members represented. at the Sub-Councils. I believe that the fact that the Members The other thing is that when we talk of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi from their of Senior Chief Representatives, regions have been chosen to be we are talking about Dikgosi who here shows that their abilities have the necessary resources that are recognised from their areas. can allow them to be able to I am also considering that when attend these Council meetings. they are in this House, they are They have got offices where representing their entire regions. correspondence can be sent. They

46 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading I do not doubt the abilities of the with Dikgosi who sent them to Senior Chief Representatives this House. There is nothing but the issue is if they go to the wrong with the Clause as the council meeting, they would be Members of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi representing their own particular will be able to keep abreast areas. On the other hand a with all the plans regarding the Member of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi is developments in their areas. I representing the whole region believe that in situations where and after the council meeting, he/ Kgosi comes from a district she would then meet with other which has several Sub-Councils Dikgosi from his area to inform then someone can be delegated. them of what was discussed or the If Members of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi latest developments. Considering are not allowed to be ex-officio those Members who do not have members of the Council, then offices like the Headmen of it is possible that they can lose Arbitration, I believe that there the dignity that is due to them is a way through which they can when it comes to issues that are be encouraged to consult with related to the developments of the people they represent in that their districts. Attending Council region. I take it that they have been Meetings can help to contribute legally chosen in their positions to the Members’ debates when to represent their regions and they are in the House since the fact that they were seen to they would be well versed in be capable of representing their the developments of their areas. regions in Ntlo Ya Dikgosi then Even if it happens that the Senior it means that they can represent Chief’s Representative gets them at the Sub-Council as well. elected to this House, then it will That is my point, Mr Chairman. be still good since he/she would know about the developments of I also think that if the Senior their areas. Chief Representatives have to be members of the Sub-Councils as That is my suggestion, Mr well then they can all attend from Chairman and when I am back in their areas. It should not be made Tswapong I attend the meetings to appear like the Members of of the Palapye Sub-Council with Ntlo Ya Dikgosi cannot represent Kgosi Boiditswe. From there we their areas at the Sub-Councils go and consult with other Dikgosi whilst they are able to represent and the senior authorities on the their regions here and consulting developments planned by the

47 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading Council. It is necessary for the region. The arrangement does Senior Chief’s Representatives not look right and I suggest to attend the Council or to be that we should look at this issue consulted on issues regarding the with the knowledge that we are Council meetings. Thank you. partners in development. If we can cooperate, I do not see how KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH this can affect anyone negatively. EAST REGION): Thank you I request that you look into Mr Chairman. I believe that the this issue seriously especially Senior Chief’s Representative when it comes to the North East and a Member of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi district because as we speak, my should be Council members membership will be coming to as they both have legitimacy. I an end soon. I am left with only take it that even though it might two years and that means that occur that the other Kgosi might whenever the Council sits in be lower when it comes to the Masunga I will be just attending Bogosi hierarchy, perhaps being as a visitor. a Headman of Arbitration, he/ she still has the legitimacy. The Mr Chairman, it has already Kgosi would have been elected happened that you get to become a representative in condemned by the Council Ntlo Ya Dikgosi through proper members regarding certain issues procedures. I understand Kgosi in the village and there would be Kgari’s concerns that it might no platform for you to defend pose some challenges since yourself. At one point I insisted when it comes to taking some that the Standing Orders should decisions the Member of Ntlo be suspended at that time so that Ya Dikgosi might not be able to I could give my side of the story. do so because of his position in These events are very common the Bogosi hierarchy. That is the under such scenarios and if both reason why I believe that it would the Ntlo Ya Dikgosi Member and be suitable for both to become the Senior Chief’s Representative the members of the Council. become members, then it would avoid such conflicts. You find We have this scenario in the North situations whereby I handle East District. I am the head of the the administrative issues and North East District in Masunga. if it is another Kgosi who is a However, when I am not in Ntlo representative at the Council then Ya Dikgosi I attend the Council he/she will not be so informed as a visitor whereas that is my

48 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading about what goes on in my area. allowed to become the members What Kgosi Kgari is talking of the Councils, then it means about is true, such things happen that they will get left behind in our area. That is why I request when it comes to the plans of for the Minister to consider that the developments in their areas, the people I have mentioned since you will discover that a should both be the members of lot of issues are discussed at the Council especially in places the Council meetings. What like the North East District. then happens is that when you Even the Tsabong area also has now come for Ntlo Ya Dikgosi that challenge. Such a situation meetings, there will be some is a bit untidy when it comes to vital information that you do not issues of courtesy. Thank you. have. You will also discover that in a particular Sub-District, there KGOSI NDZONGA might be more than three Senior (TUTUME REGION): Thank Sub-Tribal Authorities (SSTAs) you Mr Chairman. When I who are on the same position consider Clause 12, I believe and so in that situation who gets that whoever drafted it was on to attend the Council? I feel that the right path and I do not see the Members of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi what the problem could be at should be the members of the all. This Bill finds a situation Council since they were voted whereby the Members of Ntlo from their regions which cover Ya Dikgosi already attend the the whole Sub-District. From Council meetings. It now appears there he/she will then share the like we do not want other people information with other Dikgosi. to be granted the opportunity to Let us not look down on others become the Council members and accept that when a Bill like and that will not be proper. The this is brought before us we fact remains that we respect should not look at the positions each other and we were elected of other Dikgosi. Thank you. in our regions by the Dikgosi that we are mentioning now. KGOSI MMUALEFHE What then makes us think that (CHOBE REGION): Thank they will have a problem with you Mr Chairman. Regarding us becoming the members of Clause 12 under Section 78 of the Councils? I am bothered the Constitution, which provides by the fact that if at all there for Members of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi are those who end up not being becoming the members of

49 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading the Council, I am concerned KGOSI SEEMEKO about the issues of protocol. (SPECIALLY ELECTED): Perhaps that is the issue that the Thank you Mr Chairman. I have Honourable Members are not no problem with Clause 12. I have comfortable with and we also been listening to the Honourable look at becoming members of Members differing here and there the Councils as some form of in their opinions and also talking elevation of position. We should about the hierarchy of Bogosi. bear in mind that in our country, Perhaps the way it has been protocol is always observed, for phrased is contributing to the example, in a district between different opinions that have since the District Commissioner and been raised. I agree with what the Member of Parliament (MP), Kgosi Masunga has suggested and the latter takes precedence. that is for the Minister to consider If it is a Minister instead of not restricting the membership a Member of Parliament, the of the Council to the Members main responsibility lies with the of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi. There are a Minister. This is irrespective of lot of issues that we can look at whether that MP is for the ruling including the resources as one party or the opposition party. If Member has mentioned before. I we can observe protocol then believe that a member of Council it is the only way we can solve does not only go and sit at the this issue. If the Honourable Council without doing anything Members can agree with me, my but instead there are some things suggestion is that those who have that he/she might need to answer been appointed constitutionally for which are done in their offices. to become Members of Ntlo Ya Considering the Members who Dikgosi, they should be given do not have offices, it is going that privilege. It would not look to be difficult for them to access right for your subordinate to information from the office of the give you orders as I have already Kgosi kgolo. I am not implying demonstrated with the protocol that it is always the case but as we observed between the MPs and all know there are instances where District Commissioners. Thank other people might not make it you Mr Chairman. easy for one to get information. MR CHAIRMAN: Raising your I believe that if the Members of hand too high does not guarantee Ntlo Ya Dikgosi and the Senior that you will be pointed first. Chiefs can become the members

50 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading of the Council it would not whereby the other Kgosi might pose any problems. We have to refuse with information just understand that in some areas because someone is a Member of Senior Chiefs are responsible Ntlo Ya Dikgosi. Mr Chairman, for five or six villages and in I am of the view that we should some of those cases the Member look at it as a representation of of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi for that Bogosi in general. It will depend region might be residing far on how you sort it out amongst from the Senior Chief. As Kgosi yourselves as Dikgosi of that area Lempadi pointed out, you will to choose your representative at find that consultations are held the Sub-District or at the Council. but not frequently due to lack of Mr Chairman, I thank you so transport and other issues. It does much for your patience. happen that at times a member MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable can take a long time unable to Members, as we debate, let us meet with other Dikgosi and so bear in mind that we still have a I take it that the Senior Chief’s stage where we shall be dealing Representative who would be with Resolutions taken by this overseeing those villages, would House. I believe that at the end be in a better position to provide of everything, it is not about who whatever the information that the spoke better than the other, but Council might need about those whether what was spoken about areas. is something that can take us If we can declare that the further. Let us not dwell in one Members of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi point as we speak and forget should be the ones to attend the that we still have 14 sections Councils, it is going to look like of this Bill to deal with. When we want to distance ourselves a point has been debated, move from the other Dikgosi. My wish forward and do not repeat it. Let is that we should work together us bear that in mind Honourable with Dikgosi from our regions Members. and any information that the KGOSI MONTSHIWA other Kgosi might want to know (KGALAGADI NORTH): should be availed. This will avoid Thank you Mr Chairman. I want situations where he/she might to talk about the Clause that feel that they are not entitled to touches on the Members of Ntlo that information because they do Ya Dikgosi, Clause 12; 4. The not have an office or situations definition of Kgosi is focused on

51 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading the type of Bogosi that we have would be better if Dikgosi from traditionally. We should then the same Sub-District could meet decide who will be the Members and choose one representative of the Councils between Dikgosi who can represent them in this in our villages and the Members House. Am I making sense? What of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi. If we choose I am trying to propose is that if that the representation should the intention of this Clause is for be by the Members of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi to become Members of Dikgosi, then it means that the the Council, then this could work definition of a Kgosi should be for us. We should not forget that as we see it in Ntlo Ya Dikgosi there are some Members here or in our Constitution. I did not who once spoke without mincing mean to repeat what the other any words that they did not get to Members have already said but their positions by mistake of birth I just wanted to bring that point but that they were voted by the up. Thank you. people. We should pay attention to those issues Mr Chairman. KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II That was my request. (BAROLONG): Thank you Mr Chairman. I am asking myself KGOSI BOIDITSWE what the intention of this Clause (SEROWE REGION): Thank is. Does it intend for Dikgosi you Mr Chairman. I will not or for the Members of Ntlo Ya be too long in my debate. I do Dikgosi to be the members of not see anything that could the Councils? Mr Chairman, cause any misunderstandings if we should not forget that the the Chief Representative and a Membership of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi Member of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi both is not only restricted to Dikgosi. attend the Sub-Council. There Other Members have already is no difference at all. I for one clearly stated in this House that attend the Sub-Council meetings anybody can become a Kgosi and and it is very important for the anyone can become a Member representative of the region being of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi and so this the Member of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi is a possibility that might occur. to attend the meetings. I realised Even if an individual is not a the importance of attending these Kgosi by birthright, they can meetings during the time when still be chosen by other Dikgosi the Water Utilities was carrying to become a Member of Ntlo Ya out consultations and they had Dikgosi. I think that perhaps it come to brief the Council about

52 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading the changes that were to be made. would not have any cost They were talking about plans implication since there is no sitting that were going to bring changes allowance paid and there are no and I was there as the Member meals served. Again it is possible of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi. There were that we might end up holding a a lot of questions that I wanted Kgotla meeting together with the to ask but I could not ask them Chief Representative to address since I was not a Member of the an issue and support one another Sub-Council. with the information that we got from the Council meeting. I do not As you may be aware, there are see any problem in both the Chief a lot of consultations that take Representative and the Member place at the sub-Councils and the of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi attending the decisions are then taken at the Sub-Council together. Thank you full Council meetings. It is like Mr Chairman. the Sub-Councils are responsible for the consultations and there MR CHAIRMAN: I still are some points that they will emphasise that you should accept and others that they refuse remember that we have not and ultimately they take what reached the resolutions stage yet. they have agreed on to the full Honourable Members are still Council. There are a lot of reasons going to have a chance to submit why I feel that it is important for their resolutions, so, we should a Member of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi to not spend a long time on one attend a Council meeting. The Clause. We should ensure that vision 2016 also speaks about we do not just debate without an informed nation as one of its having any direction, and at the pillars and as a Member of Ntlo end of the day we do not have Ya Dikgosi I am not supposed any resolution. Let us have that to be in the dark about what in mind as we debate so that we is happening in my region. As can have progress. Honourable the different departments brief Minister, do you have anything the Sub-Councils about certain that you would like to clarify? developments, that is educational I remember that there was a to me because at the end of the question earlier on about the day, I can end up bringing some intended purpose of this Clause. of the issues here as questions or MINISTER OF LOCAL motions. I believe that the Senior GOVERNMENT (HON. Chief Representative’s attendance MOKALAKE): Thank you Mr

53 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading Chairman. I do not have much we have been referring to the Act that I need to say since you have in Chapter 9 of the Constitution. already explained that we still This then means that the have a stage where we are going definition is as it is defined in to be dealing with resolutions. the Bogosi Act. Have we not However, there is this point that exhausted Section 12 Honourable has been brought up a couple Members? If you agree then let of times that talks about the us move on to Clause 13. definition of Kgosi. I want the Clause 13 - Holding of Post in Learned Counsel to look up Public Service the definition of Kgosi in the Constitution and Bogosi Act for In Part (IV) constitution of the benefit of the House. That is Councillors, number 18. all I ask for. Thank you. KGOSI RAMOKWENA THE LEARNED COUNSEL (MAUN REGION): Thank you (MR RAMOKHUA): Thank Mr Chairman. My point is very you Mr Chairman. The Definition brief; I think the Clause is clear. of Kgosi is in the Bogosi Act. Clause 14 - Qualification for I believe that the definition Membership of Council. which is in the Bogosi Act is quite clear that the community MR CHAIRMAN: If it is clear is the one which makes the then we can move on to the next designation. Once that is done one. the appointment is made by the Clause 15 – Tenure of Office of Minister. Perhaps what would Members be important would be for me to consult the Constitution so that I KGOSI RAMOKWENA: My can see what its sections say and comment is just brief. I think the to see how we can reconcile them Clause is straight forward. with the Bogosi Act. I would need Clause 16 - Vacation of Seats time to look at the Constitution. Thank you Mr Chairman. KGOSI BOIDITSWE (SEROWE REGION): Thank MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you Mr Chairman. On this Clause you Sir. In Chapter 9 under that talks about vacation of seats, miscellaneous, there are one of the issues which raise a interpretations of Kgosi and concern is when someone is still Kgosana, and they are stated as on trial. Our Law declares that defined in the Bogosi Act.” So, someone is not guilty until proven

54 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading guilty in a court of Law. There My question then is, when are instances whereby you find someone is specially elected into someone being accused of a certain the Council, are they not chosen crime and that person would be because of their capabilities? Are requested to vacate their seats. At they nominated because of their the Councils, it is different, it is party affiliations? What I am not like with the case of Ministers, wondering is, if I am a specially who remain representatives of elected member of a Council, their constituents when they was I not chosen looking at the vacate their Ministerial posts. expertise I posses that would With Councillors, as soon as one help to bring a certain quality to is accused of doing something, the Council? Could choosing to other people immediately start be affiliated to a certain party be calling for re-elections whilst called floor crossing? Do I make others would be arguing that the sense Mr Chairman? Thank you. Councillor should remain in his/ MINISTER OF LOCAL her seat until proven guilty or GOVERNMENT (HON. otherwise. I need clarification MOKALAKE): Thank you on that matter concerning the Mr Chairman. I am not sure if vacation of seats under those I understood Kgosi Boiditswe’s circumstances. Thank you Mr question well. I believe that he Chairman. was asking if at all there is no MR CHAIRMAN: I believe that Clause that caters for situations you have noted it Honourable whereby a Councillor is accused Minister? of having committed a certain crime, whether they should KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II vacate their seat whilst waiting (BAROLONG): Thank you Mr for their case to be heard. I am Chairman. I am not sure if what not sure if he wanted a Clause I am about to say will address that would cause for such an Kgosi Boiditswe’s question. I individual to vacate the seat want to talk about Clause 16 (i) automatically. There is no Clause that says, “a member may cease that addresses that Mr Chairman, to be a councillor if s/he won the however, there is one Clause that elections through party (a) then allows for the Minister to instruct s/he crosses the floor to party the member to vacate his/her seat (b). It also talks about a person whilst their case is still before the who crosses the floor after being courts. If the individual is found specially nominated to a Council.

55 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading guilty, then through Clause 15 influence certain decisions. As for (6) subject to subsections (1) and the specially elected members, (4), “the Minister shall declare we are saying that if they have that the seat of the Member of been chosen because they have a Council is vacant.” certain expertise, which they can use to help the community and KGOSI MMUALEFHE: the Council in a certain way, then Pardon me Mr Chairman but I that is what they need to focus on. cannot find Clause 15 (6). They should not change along the H O N O U R A B L E way and chose to be a politician. MOKALAKE: That is Clause They should offer their expertise 16 (6) Kgosi, thank you. The from that position until the end other reasons for the Minister of their term. If the individual instructing a Member to vacate was voted for as a member of a his/her seat might be if at all it certain political party then they is discovered that the individual should remain as a member of disclosed false information that party and not choose to be like the fact that he/she has not an independent candidate. committed certain crimes or that As I explained earlier on, when he is not insolvent, during their we go for the primary elections campaign. If a Member cannot we campaign as individuals using read or write, if it is a requirement, our names but when it comes to or had been arrested in any part the stage where we have been of the Commonwealth countries, allocated constituencies, then then the Minister is mandated to that is where we now represent instruct the individual to vacate the party which has a manifesto. the seat. The individual can The manifesto of the party is the choose to clear his/her name one which is being advocated for through an appeal or they can and not the individual. After a ask for an extension of their party has chosen Mr Mokalake to days. It is different from that of represent the Boteti constituents, the Ministers in the sense that if when he comes to the Parliament a Minister chooses to vacate his/ he will be representing the party her position, he/she still remains and not himself. If I can give an a Member of Parliament and then example, in other countries, an he can pursue his case in that individual who was campaigning position because it is believed may not even come to Parliament, that if he continues to hold the and instead the party gets to Ministerial position he might

56 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading choose a representive they like. is not performing satisfactorily, This is happening in countries he can be replaced within a like South Africa, Namibia short time. If he is performing and Lesotho. The system is satisfactorily, he can still be designed in such a way that there voted for again to continue for is a caretaker and when a party another term. I feel that yearly wins, then the caretaker is the elections are better as I have seen one who comes to Parliament. it happening in Ntlo Ya Dikgosi, The problem then arises when and there have not been any a caretaker chooses to leave the problems. Thank you. party and join another one. That MR CHAIRMAN: Perhaps the person would be playing with Minister can clarify it because the responsibility bestowed upon I believe that the elections have them. Thank you. been held yearly but it is being MR CHAIRMAN: This then proposed that they should be means that the Minister has held every 2 and half years. clarified Clause 16. H O N O U R A B L E Clause 17, agreed to MOKALAKE: Thank you Mr Clause 18, agreed to Chairman. It is true that the 2 and half years that are being Clause 19, Mayor or mentioned is a new development Chairperson of Council and I think it was implemented KGOSI SEBOKO (BALETE): for the first time by the current Thank you Mr Chairman. I believe Councillors. It was implemented electing a Mayor or Chairperson just before we amended this Bill. every year is good because it I think it is this Clause and also gives others an opportunity to the one that states that public become Chairpersons or Mayors. servants cannot be Councillors I am saying this because if it whilst still holding their positions is for every 2 and half years, it as public servants. means that they will only have These are new developments a chance to nominate a Mayor that we are still looking into. The or Chairperson twice only. If challenge that we have is that they are not satisfied with his Councils had different durations. performance, then they will have Other Councils held elections to wait for those two years. If yearly and others held them the elections are held every year every two years. We were simply though, then if the Chairperson

57 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading harmonising this situation. We KGOSI BOIDITSWE also felt that holding elections (SEROWE REGION): I am not yearly had some disadvantages. sure if this Clause will address It might be an easy process here the situation that unfolded in in Ntlo Ya Dikgosi but with Selebi Phikwe. That situation was politicians it is a different story. confusing and even belittling the We play a game of numbers, we voters in the sense that we thought appeal to other people’s emotions we knew who the Mayor was and and that is how we get the votes as time went on the Councillors and we felt that if the elections are changed their statements and held frequently, it will only serve said that the person was not the to delay the duties of the Councils. Mayor. The Chairpersons were We imagine situations whereby being changed time and again. it will be only chaotic if they do If at all the Law is going to not get their way especially with prevent such occurrences, then the chosen Chairperson. We then that would be pleasant. It is not decided to split the period of five a palatable situation especially years before every major election when it comes to incidents like into two and half years. If the the one which occurred in Selebi Councillors are satisfied with the Phikwe between the Mayor, his performance of the Chairperson Deputy and the Councillors. If within those two and half years, the Law can address such issues, they will reinstate that person then it would be a good step. but if they are not pleased, they Thank you Mr Chairman. will not vote for him when his MR CHAIRMAN: ‘On each term comes to an end. This Clause or group of Clauses being period gives the Chairpersons so called, a debate may arise on an opportunity to plan how they the question covering the details can structure their progress. of the Clause or Clauses called’. This Clause was amended after Please focus on the details of the thorough consultations with all Clauses that you are debating on. the Councillors. Mr Chairperson, I would like to explain that in this Clause 20 - Deputy Mayor or Section, the amended part shows Deputy Chairperson that the Clerks can conduct the MR CHAIRMAN: I believe that elections during the elections for this one explains the procedure the Mayors or Council Chairmen. during the elections of the Mayor The same process will be cascaded and Chairperson. to the Sub-Councils. Thank you.

58 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading Part 5 - Proceeding of Council; quorum is always a challenge. Chairing of meetings They explained that at times they would be held up by the duties May we continue Honourable of the Council and meetings. Members? They said that if we can be too Clause 22 - Quorum restrictive then Council meetings KGOSI KGARI SECHELE would fail frequently. We had III (BAKWENA): Thank you assumed that they would be Mr Chairman. I believe that just in the village and not doing the Councillors have had an anything related to their duties opportunity to look at this Bill but they assured us that they and they were satisfied with would be in their offices or even this Clause that denotes that on official trips. Other times it the presence of more than half would be issues of health or other of the members shall constitute pressing personal matters and we a quorum and that makes it 22 ended up settling for the 50 per members. I am concerned about cent. We did however caution this because it implies that if a them that it does not look good Council has got 50 members and to us but they insisted that we out of that 50 only 26 members should remember that they are manage to attend, then that is human as well. Thank you. alright. I think that it would be MR CHAIRMAN: If it was better if the quorum could be in this House I would ask them formed by three quarters of the why they would schedule events membership of the Council. that coincide with the dates of Thank you. the meeting but anyway let us H O N O U R A B L E move on. MOKALAKE: Thank you KGOSI LEMPADI Mr Chairman. What Kgosi is (OKAVANGO): Thank you Mr alluding to is the truth. During Chairman. I am not convinced our consultations we showed on this Clause because the our concerns on that issue as Councillors are at the Council well because we asked them if to represent their voters. If the they do not feel that if half of the meeting continues with half of Council members have missed the Councillors not in attendance, the meeting, it would be such a then who will represent large number and they reminded their interests? It is better if us that even in Parliament, someone has given a reasonable

59 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading explanation for their absence but in a situation that was mentioned if there is no explanation and the by Kgosi Boiditswe earlier on meeting continues with half of when he was talking about the the people absent then it is not a Selebi Phikwe incident. If there good practice. Thank you. is no Chairperson, the deputy or any member can call a meeting MR CHAIRMAN: I am to discuss a certain issue. In a not ignoring your comments case like the one in Phikwe, an Honourable Member. As I have ex-officio member who was a been reminding you, we shall Chief Executive Officer (CEO), reach a stage where we will be facilitated a meeting so that there coming up with resolutions. can be progress. However, if it Clause 23 - Voting at meetings so happens that there has to be voting he/she does not take part. KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II That is because the individual (BAROLONG): Thank you Mr does not have the original or Chairman. Clause 23(3) means the casting vote. If it is one of that it can be possible for an ex- the Councillors then they can officio member of the Council to participate in the voting process. end up chairing the Council? Thank you. H O N O U R A B L E Clause 24 - Meetings of MOKALAKE: Thank you Mr Council Chairman. That is the case. You can be able to chair the meeting MR CHAIRMAN: If there is no during a certain discussion which raised hand then it indicates that may lead to a certain resolution. we should move on to the next Clause. KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH EAST): Thank you. Could you Clause 25 - Meetings to be please give us a picture of how public that can come about? Does it KGOSI MASUNGA: Thank happen at the discretion of the you Mr Chairman. I need the Chairman? Minister to explain this Clause H O N O U R A B L E to me so that I can understand MOKALAKE: An Ex-officio it clearly. I believe that the member can preside over a Cabinet has always been able to Council meeting especially in go out to address the Councils cases where there is an issue that but we witnessed problems in they can lead on. For example, some Councils. Some of the

60 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading Councillors at the time appeared the Cabinet. The Council even to be not pleased by that. When has that in their Standing Orders, I spoke earlier on, I highlighted they can allow reporters to be briefly about the executive present during the meeting but at powers of the Council Chairmen. a certain stage, they ask them to Often we hear them complaining leave. We know that when there about executive powers, they is a misunderstanding, people complained that it was like they would like to blow certain things are just ceremonial. Has this out of proportion. It was not like issue been resolved with the the journalists are not allowed to Councils so that there can be an attend meetings but it was only understanding of the intentions that the discussions had reached of why the Cabinet attends the a stage where they were not Council meetings at times. It ready to be made a public matter. is possible that some people Thank you. might have misunderstood the Clause 26- Records to be kept intentions of the Cabinet. Thank you. KGOSI RAMOKWENA (MAUN REGION): Thank H O N O U R A B L E you Mr Chairman. Clause 26 MOKALAKE: Thank you Mr is clear, however, I have some Chairman. We have resolved the reservations when it comes to issue by giving an explanation that recording the proceedings in even though the Cabinet would the English language. I have a be in attendance of the Council problem because there are some meeting, the meeting would be people who have the wisdom for the Council and not for the that could be of assistance Cabinet. When the Cabinet is to us but they do not have attending these meetings it cannot good command of the English be conducted by the Standing language. Is it too expensive to Orders of the Council. When write the minutes in Setswana? I Cabinet is in progress, we do not know that the English language allow the press, however we can can be brief. However there are allow them to a certain point but some people who can manage when it comes to issues that are to shorten Setswana as they confidential or that we still want write and that can work to to discuss amongst ourselves, we accommodate everyone who do ask them to leave. This procedure not understand English. is there even in Parliament and

61 Monday 13th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading There are other people who really Clause 28 - Records open for do not understand the English examination language and that is why at times KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH they do not contribute anything to EAST REGION): Thank you Mr the debates and they are labelled Chairman. At times we see certain as coming for tea and biscuits organisations or boards having at the meeting. Some people do published their audited results not know English but possess in the newspapers. I can see that the wisdom that has made the in this Clause, it is stated that a country to reach where it is. I member of the public may obtain suggest that the Minister should a copy of the records, or an extract consider that Setswana should from the records even though be used when taking minutes as I am not sure if they pay for the well. Thank you. copies or not. There is a saying KGOSI LEMPADI however, that if you want to hide (OKAVANGO REGION): something from Batswana, you Thank you Mr Chairman. I would should write it. That is why I am like to remind the House that asking if this practice of putting Batswana have been complaining reports in the private press is only about language empowerment. for the Boards? Is there any way If everything is going to be in which the Council can publish recorded in the English language their audited results in the private then where is the empowerment press? This can help in the sense of our language? The English that the information would be and Setswana language are both able to reach everyone wherever used in Botswana but often they are. Thank you. Setswana is never featured. The H O N O U R A B L E Minister should pay attention to MOKALAKE: Thank you Mr this issue and bear in mind that Chairman. In this Clause, we this country is for Batswana and are talking about something like therefore their language should the minutes or Hansard of the be used adequately especially Council. If one wants a copy, when it comes to legal issues. they have to pay a certain amount Thank you. of money towards that. The MR CHAIRMAN: I take it that Clause that talks about audited it has been noted. financial statements will come at some point in the Bill. That one Clause 27 – agreed to. is available for public scrutiny.

62 Tuesday 14th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumesd Debate) This Clause was only included Keaja and everyone else who to discourage situations where is here. I welcome you to our people would come to the Council discussions and let us begin what time and again when the Council we are here for this morning. is sitting to ask for copies. It also LOCAL GOVERNMENT discourages situations whereby BILL, 2011 (NO. 3 OF 2011) people would not be coming to the gallery to attend, preferring Second Reading to go to the offices after a week (Resumed Debate) or two to ask for copies because this could become rather costly. MR CHAIRMAN: We are still Thank you. in the Second Reading of our Bill and the plan is to continue as we MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you did yesterday and go through it Honourable Minister. We have Clause by Clause. As I requested come to the end of programme yesterday we should bear in mind today. I request that tonight you that we have to make progress as should read the rest of the sections we debate and we are supposed to that are left so that when we meet conclude this Bill tomorrow. I also tomorrow we can go through want to remind you all that we are them quickly until we finish. still going to have to come up with ADJOURNMENT resolutions on this Bill. As we debat, we should also be thinking The House accordingly adjourned about these resolutions as time is at 3.58 p.m. until Tuesday 14th not on our side. Yesterday when June, 2011 at 9.30 a.m. we adjourned, we had completed Tuesday 14th June, 2011 Clause 28 of our Bill. This means THE HOUSE met at 9.30 a.m. that today we start with Clause 29.If there are any Members who (CHAIRMAN in the Chair) wish to comment on this Clause P R A Y E R S I will see them by way of raised * * * * hands. I do not see anyone who wishes to debate. CHAIRMAN’S REMARKS Clause 29 – agreed to. MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI GABORONE): Good morning Clause 30 – agreed to. Honourable Members as well PART VI – Privilege of as the Honourable Minister, Immunity Permanent Secretary (PS) ,Mr

63 Tuesday 14th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumesd Debate) Clause 31 – agreed to. Management (DPSM) is working on it. I take it that when they have Clause 32 – agreed to. completed everything then that Clause 33 – agreed to. will be implemented. Thank you. Clause 34 – agreed to. KGOSI LEMPADI PART VII – Staff (OKAVANGO REGION): Thank you Mr Chairman. I need Clause 35 clarification on what it means to KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH be employed on contract? Do you EAST REGION): Good consider the age of the individual morning Mr Chairman, as well as or the position they hold? the Minister, his accompanying H O N O U R A B L E Staff and the Honourable MOKALAKE: We look at the Members. On Clause 35, I want position the individual holds. to know how far the process of That is from salary scale of E2 hiring Chief Executive officers and above. I am not sure if I can who are referred to as Council explain it any further because it Secretaries is and if they will be is not part of our mandate. This hired on contract basis or not? We new development comes with once heard that the Government the new Public Service Act. They intends to employ senior officers are still working on logistics on contract basis so that it can for implementation. They are be easier to part ways when the changing the process of employing Government no longer needs people who are at higher scales their services. Is this going to and so it is going to take a while happen anytime soon or they are to sort that out. Thank you. still far from being implemented? Thank you. MR CHAIRMAN: I hope the debate is not going to be about MINISTER OF LOCAL contracts but it is going to focus GOVERNMENT (HON. on this Clause and you will MOKALAKE): Good morning address the part that talks about Mr Chairman and Members of Town clerks so that it does not Ntlo Ya Dikgosi. It is true that appear like we are now debating with the new Public Service Act, a motion. the Members of staff on a scale of E2 and upwards will now be If you want to bring in questions employed on contractual basis. that ask about employment, The Directorate of Public Service then you have every right to do 64 Tuesday 14th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumesd Debate) so. However, you should not in the districts. I believe that you take advantage of the Local have noted that. Some of you who Government Bill to introduce are from areas that are near the other issues. We should focus on cities or towns on selective basis the details of the Clause as they are going to have to start paying are here. rates and you might end up feeling that you are being ripped KGOSI POTSOENG (NGAMI off. That is because a business REGION): Good morning Mr might end up being built within Chairman. I need clarity on one part of your tribal territory but not point that I came across in the being charged the rates. They now Bill. The Minister will let me have to start paying rates at the know if what I am saying is not Councils so that the money can be the truth. I read somewhere that used for other developments. Chief Executive Officers of the Councils are now employed by the One example that I can give is Mayors or Council Chairpersons. that when you look at the Game City shopping complex and the H O N O U R A B L E Commerce Park offices, they MOKALAKE: It would have might appear like they are in been better if Kgosi had given Gaborone whilst they are within us the source of that information the South East district. They do because it is not there in this Bill as not pay the rates that are being well as the Public Service Act that paid by businesses in Gaborone. we have just been talking about. However, the service that they I am not sure of the context in provide is in Gaborone. Other which that information was used. areas like that are the ones in Perhaps it was said in comparison Mogoditshane, where they sell to something. Thank you. second hand vehicles. Such Clause 36 – agreed to. businesses might be regarded as ripping the Councils off. You PART VIII – Valuation and might discover that some of the Rating of Properties reasons why they do that are Clause 37 – agreed to. for them to avoid paying tax. I H O N O U R A B L E wanted to alert you on that new MOKALAKE: I should hasten development, otherwise, the one to alert Dikgosi that this part is the concerning valuation has always one that talks about Property Tax been there but occurring in towns which will now be administered only. Thank you.

65 Tuesday 14th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumesd Debate) MR CHAIRMAN: I believe that to explaining what the tribunal is the Honourable Members have for. The cost of land or a plot as been waiting for you to clarify well as the buildings within it is that one Honourable Minister. conducted so that the amount of When we dispersed yesterday tax that is supposed to be paid can one Member indicated that it is be established. After properties the Clause they are waiting for are valued, there are rolls that are and I had assumed that he would produced that show the buildings debate on it but I believe that that were valued and how much your explanation was very clear. the value was. From there an inspection is carried out so that Clause 38 – agreed to. the owner can see how his/her Clause 39 – agreed to. property was valued. If there is Clause 40- Powers, Functions any complaint whatsoever that and Duties of Valuation may arise, perhaps one feeling Tribunal. that they are asked to pay a high tax rate, then there is a KGOSI LEMPADI: Thank you valuation Tribunal Committee Mr Chairman. At times we ask that can be formed temporarily. a lot of questions which might The committee is selected so appear to be out of procedure but that on particular dates it can sit I wanted to know what the role and listen to the complaints that of the Valuation Officer is within people bring and it is the one that the Council? I need clarification will consider all the objections on that point. Thank you. and confirm any valuation, MR CHAIRMAN: It is the one or make any amendments, we are currently looking at which alterations in the valuation roll talks about the Powers, Functions as it considers appropriate and and Duties of Valuation Tribunal. expedient. I wanted to make the Honourable Minister, please distinction between valuing of explain to Kgosi Lempadi so that properties and the Clause which he can understand. talks about valuation tribunals. Thank you. MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT (HON. KGOSI BOIDITSWE MOKALAKE): Thank you (SEROWE REGION): Mr Mr Chairman. Perhaps I should Chairman, I am confused by begin by explaining who values the part which talks about the what and why and then progress evaluator because there is where

66 Tuesday 14th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumesd Debate) it states that the individual cannot Chairman. The most important sit as a member of the valuation words there are ‘shall not’ and tribunal in which he or she is not ‘may not’ because it is not personally interested and so... an option. To declare in this case might mean whereby the MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi individual explains that he/she Boiditswe, I first want to know if cannot sit in the tribunal because we are done with Clause 40 and they are related to the complainant if we are then we can go on to or that they have got interests in Clause 41. the issue being discussed. There KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Thank are some committees apart from you Mr Chairman. There is where the valuation tribunal that may it is mentioned that if the one who allow an individual member to does the valuing has personal sit in the committee after he/she interest in any matter that is has declared his/her interests. being discussed in the valuation The valuation tribunal passes tribunal then he/she shall not sit out judgements. Therefore, an as a member. The question then individual cannot be allowed is do they declare their interests? to pass judgement against or Where do they declare those for him/herself. The judgement interests if at all they do? Is there is agreed upon by the whole a committee or board that those committee and an individual people can declare their interests who has interests in an issue to? I am saying this because I am shall not participate in it at all. considering the fact that often we Thank you. hear issues whereby people are MR CHAIRMAN: I believe at fault for not declaring whilst that now you shall allow me to we are not aware of where those move to the next Clause after particular individuals have to that explanation. declare. Perhaps in future we might discover situations where Part 9- Powers of Council to the evaluator sits in valuation make Bye-Laws tribunals where matters that he/ Clause 42 -Power to Make she has personal interests in are Bye-Laws discussed only because they have not declared. KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Thank you Mr Chairman. The powers that H O N O U R A B L E have been given to the Councils, MOKALAKE: Thank you Mr to make Bye-Laws, have a lot of

67 Tuesday 14th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumesd Debate) challenges. They even make us Clauses are connected to each regard the Bye-Law Department other. Let us do that so that we as not having authority because can be able to focus well. people continue breaking those KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II Bye-Laws. My request is that (BAROLONG): Thank you Mr the bye-Law officers who have Chairman. This Clause provides to enforce these Laws should for the Council to be given the be given resources because you authority to make Bye-Laws. I cannot enforce the Law without see no problem since the Council the necessary resources needed. has been doing that all along. I Most of these officers are ex-police suggest that we move on. officers. I encourage that when individuals are considered for MR CHAIRMAN: Okay Clause employment in this field, it should 43. be people who know something Clause 43 - agreed to about the Law. They should be sent for training so that they can Clause 44 - Miscellaneous have expertise when it comes to Provisions Regarding Bye- the Law. The problem that I see Laws. is not with the Laws as such but it KGOSI GAREBAKWENA has got to do with the enforcement (MOLEPOLOLE REGION): part. I sincerely request that what Thank you Mr Chairman. I I suggested should be considered understand that before these because they are said to be non- Laws are submitted to the performing whilst they lack the Minister, they should be posted necessary resources to do so. on the notice boards and website Thank you. in the area. Do you think that MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable the people whom these Laws Members, as we go through are made for will see them? these Clauses, bear in mind that You might discover that they some of them are connected would not be able to see the to the subsequent clauses; you notice boards because of where might discover that what you are they reside. Does the Minister talking about is already covered not consider coming up with in the following Clause. That is other means which would make why I encouraged you to read it possible for the people whom the rest of the Bill yesterday so these Laws are made for to see that you may get to see how the them before they are submitted to him? I do not have any 68 Tuesday 14th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumesd Debate) suggestions but if these Laws are deal with social matters such as important then something should the maintenance of health, safety be done to ensure that they reach and well-being of the inhabitants the people. Thank you. of an area. Which Laws could the Bye-Laws possibly override? H O N O U R A B L E Thank you. MOKALAKE: Thank you Mr Chairman. Kgosi, what was MINISTER OF LOCAL mentioned here is basically GOVERNMENT (HON. examples of ways through which MOKALAKE): Thank you. The people can be reached. The Clause simply means that the important part however, is in Bye-Laws should not go against the last line that states that, they any of the existing Laws, from the may also be posted in any public Supreme Law, the Constitution or place. This might be at the Kgotla, any other Laws that are applied in Council offices and so forth. The Botswana. It should not be a Law fact of the matter is that consulting that deviates from others such every stakeholder before a Law is that it ends up not being related made is very difficult, however to any of the other Laws. This is efforts are made. Even if the staff to avoid situations whereby we can inform the stakeholders about end up being tried with another the Law in a Kgotla meeting, it section of the Law because is still in order even if it has not the Bye-Laws are regarded as been written here. lacking some merit. An example that I can give is for situations MR CHAIRMAN: If Kgosi where there are designated areas has got any suggestions apart for farming and for livestock from the ways that are stipulated grazing, the Bye-Laws should in the Clause, he can suggest not be made to designate that them when we are making the livestock can be reared where resolutions. I believe that you they are not supposed to be and have been noting the areas that thereby going against the Laws you feel should be amended. of land use. Thank you. Clause 45 - Bye-Laws Not to MR CHAIRMAN: Clause 46 – Override Other Laws agreed to KGOSI BOIDITSWE: What Clause 47 – agreed to does the phrase “overriding other Laws” mean? I am asking this Clause 48 – agreed to because the Bye-Laws mostly Clause 49; Penalties.

69 Tuesday 14th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumesd Debate) KGOSI TSHIPE KGOSI TSHIPE: I want to (MAHALAPYE REGION): make a follow up on that one Mr Thank you Mr Chairman. I Chairman. I understand what the want to comment on the Clause Minister is saying however, I am which talks about penalties. I comparing the P5 000 fines and am not sure whether other Laws the 1 year jail term and I feel were considered when it was that they are at two extremes. crafted. I see that the penalty for Perhaps the fine can be at P3 offences is a fine not exceeding 000 and go with a jail term of P5 000. However if it is a prison a year. P5 000 would go with a term it shall not exceed 1 year. I jail term of three years. That is feel that the fine is too steep as what I tried to explain earlier. compared to a prison term of a Thank you. year. Normally it is better if they KGOSI LOTLAMORENG correlate. Thank you. II (BAROLONG): Thank you H O N O U R A B L E Mr Chairman. I believe that this MOKALAKE: The amount that Bill was brought here for us to has been set there is the perimeter give advice to the Minister. If of how much one can be charged, Kgosi has a suggestion perhaps perhaps the word fine has been he could state it and then we can used loosely in this context discuss it. If there is a jail term however, you can be charged that Kgosi Tshipe feels that it even way less than P5 000 and would be appropriate then he then in that instance, a jail term of should state it. Thank you. 1 year would appear too harsh. It KGOSI TSHIPE: Thank you is a fine that does not go beyond Mr Chairman. I feel that a jail P5 000, that is what it is saying. It term of a year could go with a does not specify how much a fine fine of P2 000. should be, it is discretional. MR CHAIRMAN: I believe KGOSI GAREBAKWENA that Kgosi Tshipe has come up (MOLEPOLOLE REGION): with a suggestion that a jail term Mr Chairman, there is something of a year should go with a fine I did not understand on Clause of P2 000. He feels that P5 000 47. is too steep. We will still debate MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi that at the resolutions. Please Garebakwena, we are on Clause note that at Clause 49 there is 49. that suggestion.

70 Tuesday 14th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumesd Debate) Clause 50; Law Enforcement KGOSI LEMPADI Office. (OKAVANGO REGION): KGOSI LOTLAMORENG Thank you Mr Chairman. I want II (BAROLONG): Thank you to add on to Kgosi’s words and say Mr Chairman. Even though I do that this Clause should be looked not disagree with this Clause I at carefully because if people want to appeal to the Members are given the powers to enforce to pay particular attention to the Law when they have not be some issues. There was a point trained on Law enforcement, then in this House where I pointed out it might pose some challenges. I that the Government is taking personally do not see the point the Local Police Officers from of having bye-Law officers here us because it wants to have because if the Law is enforced, it Municipality Police and that should be enforced by the current was denied, but look at what Police Officers. Creating a Law we have now. I suggest that the Enforcement Office within the current Police Officers should Council would be repeating what be left to do the job that they are has always been there, there is currently doing. I am saying this really no difference. Thank you. because when the Local Police H O N O U R A B L E was merged with the Botswana MOKALAKE: Thank you Mr Police, we were informed that Chairman. I do not want us to be they are going to enforce the sidetracked by this Clause only Laws that are enforced by the because it has been included Botswana Police. There are bye- in this Bill because such a Law officers at the Councils and situation has always prevailed they should be left to continue in the Councils. It has long been working with the current Police like that, since the inception Officers to enforce the Bye- of the Council Bye-Laws. The Laws as it is currently the case. statement that I am talking about What I had once stated as my is very clear and it should not be suspicions is now becoming true bothering us at all. Forty (40) even though the Government (a) in the old Act says, “There was denying it at that time. We shall be a Bye-Law enforcement have been told that there are no unit in every Council, to enforce funds and so where is the money Bye-Laws made by Council”. that is going to set up a Law It applied to even the District Enforcement Office within the Councils and Urban Councils. Council. Thank you.

71 Tuesday 14th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumesd Debate) We reproduced what has already that the President has been given been there. too much powers. What I want to show is that in our country, there To explain further, our intention are people whom we want to is to empower the Bye-Law reduce their powers and there are Enforcement Officers and the those that we want to empower. Bye-Law Office because we have Dikgosi want to have more always complained that they powers. We want to empower do not have enough authority. bye-Law Enforcement Officers We are reducing the powers of so that they can do their jobs other offices whilst we empower well. I take it that it should not others and the Bye-Law Office be a problem. I agree with those is one such office which shall be who suggest that the Bye-Law empowered especially through Officers should be empowered training. There are other Bye-Law and resourced so that they can Officers who possess some skills be able to enforce the Law at that could assist us if they have the the districts. We at times find a leeway to do their jobs. People are situation whereby shows end always complaining about loud up going beyond the set time music and alcohol being sold in limit of 10’o clock but because undesignated places and the Bye- the Law enforcement officers Laws should help Dikgosi. They would be enjoying themselves have been there doing this job but in those shows, they forget to do it is only that... their duty. That is why we train KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II: them nowadays and we also hire Clarification. Mr Chairman, I people with certain qualification appreciate what the Minister is like ex-Police Officers and those saying about reducing the powers people who possess a Diploma in of others and empowering others. Law. The important thing is that I want the Minister to explain to we want them to do their duties us whose powers they will be and help you at the districts. reducing. Is it us? Thank you. H O N O U R A B L E MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable MOKALAKE: We want to Minister, you are aware that even reduce the powers vested upon if you empower them it does not the President. I am trying to be mean that they will stop drinking fair, it is common knowledge that whilst they should be enforcing people are always complaining the Law?

72 Tuesday 14th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumesd Debate) KGOSI SEEMEKO respond to that anyway. (SPECIALLY ELECTED): MINISTER OF LOCAL Thank you Mr Chairman. I would GOVERNMENT (HON like to apologise for being late. MOKALAKE): Thank you The Clause is clear but perhaps I Mr Chairman. You are right, at should caution the Minister that times in regions, people are not he should pay attention to the sure of how they can go about issue of capacity. The problem in executing their duties, they that we have been having is that get to wonder whether they they were thin on the ground. should intervene or leave some That is something that could be cases for the police. At times looked into and probably recruit Mr Chairman, it is an issue of more officers. Thank you Sir laziness, people would not want to take responsibility, leaving MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you everything to the police. The Kgosi Seemeko. Your apology is police on the other hand, when inaudible but you normally raise they fail or do not want to take your voice when addressing other responsibility, they would also issues. Kgosi Lempadi, do you say it is the responsibility of the still want to address Clause 50? Bye-laws officers. We believe that KGOSI LEMPADI these two should work together, (OKAVANGO REGION): Is our law provides for them to the Minister aware that the law work hand in hand in the sense enforcement officers’ conditions that the bye-law enforcement of service conflict with those of officers can arrest and handover the Bye-laws, for example; when the offenders to the police the law enforcement officers are officers. There should not be any called to attend cases where other friction between the two in terms people are playing loud music of jurisdiction. We are aware at night, they would say that it that in cases of public nuisance should be attended by the bye- like playing music loudly, the law officers. When will these be bye-law officers should be in the merged to avoid the confusion as forefront but the police are also the two work hand in hand? responsible for cautioning the MR CHAIRMAN: Is it not the offenders. Thank you. one the Minister referred to when Clause 51 agreed to he said that their powers will be Clause 52- Powers of Arrest increased. The Minister will

73 Tuesday 14th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumesd Debate) KGOSI RAMOKWENA to execute their duties diligently. (MAUN REGION): Thank KGOSI BOIDITSWE you Mr Chairman. Let me (SEROWE REGION): Thank greet the Honourable House you Mr Chairman. I am at Clause and the Honourable Ministers 52, where it states that, “a law here present. I will comment on enforcement officer may without Clause 52 (2), where it states that; a warrant, arrest a person”. I “a law enforcement officer may would like to know if the bye law use force”, these people have officers have ranks, I take it that been given powers, why do we the warrant of arrest can only be not use the word, ‘shall’ instead sought from a senior officer. Do of ‘may’? There is a difference they have ranks or they are just between these two words. In law enforcement officers at one legal context, if the word ‘may’ rank? I am concerned because it is has been used, people cannot be said that they can arrest a person forced into doing anything by the without a warrant of arrest. If enforcement officers, that is why you allow me Mr Chairman, the law enforcement officers often I need clarity on the issue of lose cases. ‘May’ carries less using force on a person who weight than ‘shall’. I also think refuses arrest. The type of force that the word “force” should be to be used should also be made replaced with, ‘may use power of clear, Mr Chairman. Let us stop his service’ to completely avoid lamenting on the redeployment the use of the word ‘force’. Even of Local Police Officers. When the Botswana Police no longer we look at municipalities; all uses that word; they have changed Local Government Acts are from Botswana Police Force to guided by municipalities, a Police Botswana Police Service. We Officer cannot arrest a person for should consider these things chibuku trading. When we take Honourable Minister. Lastly, are the Republic of South Africa, for there any lawyers who can offer example, it is run by municipalities, legal advice to bye-law officers or Local Police Officers and Central they are just like Police Officers? Police Officers. We should not I am not implying that Police cry over the Police Officers who officers do not know the law, have been redeployed because but they fail in certain situations service delivery will continue because of interpretation or in their absence. Thank you Mr definition of certain words. Lack Chairman. of knowledge affects their ability

74 Tuesday 14th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumesd Debate) KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II: optional because there are people On a point of clarification. Thank who would not be cooperative and you Mr Chairman. May we know would refuse arrest, therefore the the person who is crying so that use of force would be necessary we can comfort him/her? When in that situation. However, other someone is crying, they need to people may be cooperative and be comforted. complying with the requirement of the law upon arrest. Force KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Mr would not be necessary as it may Chairman, I did not mean ‘cry’ cause the individual unnecessary in the literal sense; I know that harm. We should not insist on we were really distressed when the use of force Mr Chairman. Local Police Officers who It should be optional because we assisted us left. My apologies deal with people who respond Kgosi Lotlamoreng. Thank you differently. In some instances, one KGOSI GAREBAKWENA may insult the law enforcement (MOLEPOLOLE REGION): officer, using words such as Mr Chairman, as the Minister “bootlicker” and so forth and then responds to Kgosi Boiditswe’s it would call for some action to be question, he should also share taken. The bye-law enforcement with us the powers that the officers are an extension of the law enforcement officers have, legal section of the Council. The whether they are similar to those Council has lawyers and they of the Police Officers or not. Are are the ones who advise them these powers standard across the through consultations. Like I law enforcement officers or are have stated, some of them have there those that are of a higher studied law to a certain level standard? and they are not like some of us. H O N O U R A B L E They understand the law better MOKALAKE: Thank you Mr and they know the parameters for Chairman. Let me start off by using their discretion for arrests addressing Kgosi Ramokwena’s even when though their warrants comments, concerning the usage are not similar to those of the of “shall” and “may”. In this Police. There can be instances matter we found it is ideal that when a bye-law officer finds a we use “may” instead of “shall” person committing an offence, because people behave differently they would then have to use their when they are arrested. Let it be discretion and arrest a person rather than go to the Magistrate’s

75 Tuesday 14th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumesd Debate) Court to ask for a warrant only be brought about by individuals to come back and find that using their positions to torment evidence has been destroyed. the community but that would be That is where discretion is used. individuals’ personalities and not However, it would be a different the law. Thank you matter if an officer sees a suspect KGOSI MALEMA (BOBIRWA a month after an offence has been REGION): Thank you Mr committed, in that situation; he Chairman. I need clarification, cannot be arrested or searched I do not understand if the law without a warrant because there enforcement officers will be able is no urgency. I take it that I have to go and prosecute the case at responded to all of them. Thank the court or they arrest and hand you. over the offenders to the Police MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi who then will take the offenders Garebakwena had asked about to court? That is what I need to the differences between the understand. Police Officers and bye-law MINISTER OF LOCAL enforcement officers and whether GOVERNMENT (HON the bye-law enforcement officers MOKALAKE): They are will be given powers which are the first stage of the process in more than those of the Police. preparation for a court case. Like I H O N O U R A B L E have said, Councils have lawyers MOKALAKE: I thought I and attorneys and they can fine had covered it in my summary and demand payment instantly. At response. I had said that they times when suspects are to appear have the same powers as those in court, the Police get involved, of the Police Officers, because the prosecutors take over. They they both arrest and take people work cooperatively in the sense to prison. They should work that they can fine on the spot, use hand in hand with the Police. It their lawyers if the perpetrator is just that there may be minor needs a lawyer or use the Police differences, which are brought for prosecution. Thank you. about by the fact that others are MR CHAIRMAN: Like I Police Officers while others are explained earlier on Honourable bye-law enforcement officers Members, some clauses have but they perform the same to be read together with the duties. There are just minute following clauses for better differences. One difference may

76 Tuesday 14th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumesd Debate) understanding. For example enforce the law, the soldiers can Clause 54, even though we are do it. The Police as well can do it. not there yet, goes on to state Like I have already said, even the that after arrest, that person citizens of the country can enforce shall be dealt with in accordance the law but the only difference is with the Criminal Procedure and that the law enforcement officers Evidence Act (CP&E). These are are employed. However, I would some of the things this Bill is like to request Batswana to assist trying to explain. the Police Officers when they see that they are overpowered KGOSI KAHIKO III by perpetrators, it is not like all (GHANZI WEST REGION): Police Officers are boxers. We Thank you Mr Chairman and let have to assist them. Thank you. me greet this Honourable House. I have one question Mr Chairman. MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you These officers are going to be Honourable Minister. I can see posted to regions where there some hands but my job is to see are no Police Officers. I want to to it that the Rules of Procedure understand how they are going to of this House are followed. assist in situations where there PROCEEDINGS are cases which would need to be SUSPENDED FOR TEA attended by the Police, can they arrest? That is my question. MR CHAIRMAN: When the siren rings, we should all be H O N O U R A B L E seated so that we start well on MOKALAKE: These people time. It warns us to proceed to are entitled to arrest, and in the chamber. I therefore request every place they come across that for the remaining days of any criminal activities, they can this meeting, we should make arrest. Even you Kgosi, myself sure that when we hear the siren, or anyone can arrest people we all proceed to the chamber. engaging in unlawful acts, it is I had thought that after the tea called citizen’s arrest. When break, Members would not want you find a person trying to kill to comment but it appears that another one, you try and stop they still want to air their views that person from committing murder by all means possible. If KGOSI RAMOKONE that person is violent, they can (KANYE REGION): Thank be pinned down until the Police you Mr Chairman. I wanted to arrive at the scene. We all have to know if we could consult with

77 Tuesday 14th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumesd Debate) these law enforcement officers KGOSI LOTLAMORENG anytime of the day just like we do II (BAROLONG): Thank you with the Police Officers. At times Mr Chairman. I am against the there would be loud noises late in law enforcement officers taking the night, does it mean that they any arrested person to a police will have a toll free number in station. But why do we have their office where we can reach to only focus on the Criminal them anytime? That is what I had Procedure and Evidence Act wanted to know Mr Chairman. (CP&E) while there are other Thank you. laws such as the Penal Code? At times one might be arrested for a H O N O U R A B L E crime that does not fall under the MOKALAKE: Thank you Mr CP&E but rather under the Penal Chairman. Yes, that is the case. Code. Maybe we could use the Dikgosi can even have their cell Penal Code and not the CP&E phone numbers because the toll Mr Chairman. Thank you. free number will only operate when the officers are in the KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH office. If there is cooperation EAST DISTRICT): Thank you between yourselves and the bye- Mr Chairman. Clause 54 talks law officers, I do not see them about the procedure after arrest. having any problem giving you Mr Chairman, we do not have the their cell phone numbers because Human Rights Commission in you all enforce the law. You can Botswana. When I look at all the contact them any time because a Bye-laws and their procedures, I problem may arise any time of do not see where it stipulates the the day, when there is noise at procedure to be followed when night, you can report to the bye a person feels their rights have law enforcement officers, if they been violated during an arrest. Do are not available then the Police they follow the normal procedure Officers can assist. Where there to lodge their complaints? Where is proper cooperation, the Police do they lodge their complaints? should be able to come and assist, In the case of the Police, we all even the Council Secretaries, they know that we have the Police form part of the law enforcement Commissioner but in this case, officers. Thank you we are talking about Councils. Will Ombudsman extend to the Section 53 agreed to councils or it stops at the Central Section 54- Procedure After Government? Thank you. Arrest

78 Tuesday 14th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumesd Debate) H O N O U R A B L E and another thing is that the law MOKALAKE: Thank you enforcement officers do not have Mr Chairman. I think Kgosi cells, when they arrest a person Lotlamoreng II is right. When a at night; they can only take them person has committed a crime, to the Police. Thank you. we should be able to use all KGOSI LOTLAMORENG procedures. We will look into II: Thank you Mr Chairman. that at a later stage, he has a Let us look into this matter; we point. Lodging complaints Mr have villages which do not have Chairman, these officers have Police Stations yet there are their supervisors at the council Police Officers, I cannot think of and if there has been a crime any village to cite as an example committed, the first step is to now. I am of the opinion that report to the Council since there a Police Station is where the are Council Secretaries, district Police Officers work from. The commissioners and other senior Minister has pointed out that the officials Mr Chairman. The office law enforcement officers do not of the Ombudsman covers them have cells but there are some as well. Thank you. Police Officers who use Dikgotla KGOSI KAHIKO III as their Police Stations and there (GHANZI WEST REGION): are cells in which the arrested Thank you Mr Chairman. I persons could be detained. Do we understand this clause. However, have to say Police Station? Let if these officers take the arrested us think about it, Mr Chairman. people to the Police Station Thank you. for assistance with compiling H O N O U R A B L E dockets and prosecution, I do MOKALAKE: This is a good not understand the grounds on initiative which will be looked which they do that. Thank you into. It is true there are places Mr Chairman. where there are no Police H O N O U R A B L E Stations yet there are Police MOKALAKE: When a person Officers and they have cells. The is arrested, he should be taken to arrested persons can be detained the Police Station where he will for a short period of time to await be charged with an offence and trial or a fine from the Council. then a docket will be opened. This is done on the person who That is the main purpose for is waiting to go to the next level, taking them to the Police Station others just settle the matter by

79 Tuesday 14th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumesd Debate) complying to what the officers KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II ask them to do. While others are (BAROLONG): Mr Chairman, I fined and could pay the next day am not trying to respond, I know or if there is a revenue collector all my ideas are good as the among the officers then the Minister has already pointed out payment can be made instantly. I earlier on. What Kgosi Potsoeng think I have explained it. is saying is that law enforcement officers should be allowed to Clause 55 – Search with search without a search warrant Warrant as covered by Clause 56. In KGOSI POTSOENG: Clause Clause 55, what about when 55 states that a law enforcement we are talking about a law officer may apply for a search enforcement officer who needs a warrant from the magistrate if search warrant but is in a place they want to search a certain where there is no magistrate place. However, when we look at office. Why do we not say that Clause, 52 (2), it states that they the officer could get the warrant can enter any place and search. from any Commissioner of Oaths Why do we not just say one to assist the bye-law enforcement thing; a law enforcement officer officers, if at all they have to get should be allowed to search any these warrants under an Oath? place or premises to avoid loss MINISTER OF LOCAL of evidence while the officer has GOVERNMENT (HON gone to seek a search warrant. MOKALAKE): Let me start off We have to consider these things by addressing Kgosi Potsoeng’s Mr Chairman, looking at the fact question. We have given them that at times the law enforcement those two options as we have officers could neglect to search a already explained. Clause 56 person who is their friend or any explains that law enforcement of the family members. In such officers can search without instances, they could just tell a warrant in circumstances people that they do not have a where they feel that the delay search warrant, therefore cannot in obtaining the search warrant search those people and it will will defeat the object of the give these people time to hide search. If there is no urgency, the evidence. Law enforcement then they have to get a warrant officers should be allowed not withstanding that Clause. to search anytime they are They could get the warrant from suspicious of something.

80 Tuesday 14th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumesd Debate) the magistrate or the District Honourable Members can, in Commissioner as well because their resolutions, submit whether they are at the same level with they want Dikgosi to be included the magistrates. Dikgosi could or not? You will then debate the be included among those who resolution in this House. issue search warrants if they so Clause 56 – Search Without wish. These days Kgosi has very Warrant good ideas and I suspect that something is about to happen. KGOSI KAHIKO III Thank you. (GHANZI WEST REGION): Thank you Mr Chairman. Clause MR CHAIRMAN: I am not sure 56 talks about search without whether he used to present ideas warrant, it has been derived which were not good.... from section 52 of the Criminal HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Procedure and Evidence (C P & Murmurs. E). According to the C P & E, a person who can search without KGOSI SEEMEKO warrant is a Sergeant or any (SPECIALLY ELECTED): higher rank. With regards to law Thank you Mr Chairman. On the enforcement officers, I do not issue that the Minister touched know the scale they will adopt when he concluded his response, to avoid any misunderstandings. I am a bit worried. The Minister Thank you Mr Chairman. says if we feel that we should be part of the people who issue KGOSI BOIDITSWE warrants, we can advocate for (SEROWE REGION): Thank that, aren’t we supposed to be you Mr Chairman. Clause 56 guided by the law? Is it not states that, “The Law Enforcement necessary for us to be part of Officer may seize and detain those people? I do not understand anything found in those premises, what the Minister means. vehicle or place.” Mr Chairman there is a concern that after goods MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi have been seized by the Police for Lotlamoreng II has outlined the evidence, when it is time for these people who are listed under the goods to be returned to the owners, Commissioner of Oath Act to they are not in the same state they administer Oaths. Why then do were in when they were seized. we have only magistrates on this This is so because the Police do Bill? Can others not be considered, not have proper storage facilities I think the Minister said that the

81 Tuesday 14th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumesd Debate) and therefore by the time people 56 (2) is, “as far as possible.” As come and claim their goods, they far as possible means that efforts are already damaged. should be made. It does not mean that when the crime is committed I do not know how the Council is during the night and there is no prepared in terms of storage for one to witness, the officer cannot the goods they will seize. As the search. The search should be Bill has been presented to this made during day time as far as House; I take it that it shows that possible to avoid causing any preparations are ongoing and that misunderstandings. A person the people will find their goods could be seen coming from still in a good condition. Thank somebody’s house and pretend you Mr Chairman. that he/she has been searching the KGOSI POTSOENG (NGAMI house when in actual fact that is REGION): Mr Chairman, not the case. ‘As far as possible’ Clause 56 (2) states that the does not mean it cannot be done search should be made during at all. As for the security of the day time and in the presence goods seized from the public, I of two or more respectable do not know how to respond to it inhabitants. What is going to as it was just a general comment happen in the scenario where that the goods are not safe at the the crime is committed during police stations and they end up the night? Does it mean that being damaged. Unfortunately, the bye-law enforcement officer there is no how we can make a law cannot search and arrest persons that can address that. We know during the night. When they find that these goods should be stored that there are no other persons properly. At times even cattle in the area, does it bind the law get stolen or die while under the enforcement officer not to search police care. As for stolen goods, and arrest the person as there will the thieves who stole them might be no other inhabitants in the have damaged them before the locality to witness the search? police seized them. We can only Thank you Mr Chairman. stress it on the law enforcement officers and the police to take H O N O U R A B L E proper care of the goods used MOKALAKE: Thank you as evidence. I take it that I have Mr Chairman. Before I forget, responded to the first one which I need to address this one; the stated that notwithstanding this most important word in Clause Section, the law may be enforced

82 Tuesday 14th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumesd Debate) even if we still have section 52. KGOSI KAHIKO III: Thank That is what it says. Thank you you Mr Chairman, I did not get a proper response. When we MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi started, we were told that this Kahiko III, raised an issue Bill will not take precedence over concerning Sergeants as outlined other existing Acts. My question by the C P & E. was that, officers who have been H O N O U R A B L E warranted to search without MOKALAKE: This Section warrants as stipulated by the C P says, ‘notwithstanding that.’ & E are Sergeants and above, so Notwithstanding means that what criterion will be used with even in the presence of another, regards to the bye-law officers the following can still be done. who will be allowed to search without warrants, which ranks KGOSI KAHIKO III: I do not would they be in? Will it override understand you. the current C P & E Act? H O N O U R A B L E H O N O U R A B L E MOKALAKE: Should I read it MOKALAKE: Even if the C out? It says, “Notwithstanding P & E Act talks about the ranks Section 52 of the Criminal of the Police Officers, when a Procedure and Evidence Act, bye law officer sees that there where it appears to a Law are reasonable grounds to arrest, Enforcement Officer that there they can do so without following are reasonable grounds that the the procedure of arrest. The bye- delay in obtaining the search law officer is permitted to use warrant will defeat the object their discretion to arrest, even of the search he or she, without though the C P & E Act stipulates warrant, if he or she considers those who are supposed to arrest that the special exigencies of the without warrants. I think I have case so require, enter and search done this question some justice. any person, premises,.....” The Honourable Members officer would have assessed the situation and would have seen that MR CHAIRMAN: Maybe the time they` would take we should move on but with a to seek a warrant will defeat the question mark on that one. We object of the search; the officer have highlighted that we do not can use their discretion looking want any of the resolutions to at the exigencies of that Act. That clash with the existing Acts. Let is what the clause says. us see how to mend the loophole

83 Tuesday 14th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumesd Debate) if at all there is any and I believe the jail sentence and the fine be that Kgosi Kahiko will lead increased and assist us on that one as he KGOSI TSHIPE knows this job well, hence his (MAHALAPYE REGION): contribution about warrants. Thank you Mr Chairman. I Clause 57 agreed to concur with Kgosi Lotlamoreng II. However, I am still worried Clause 58 – Penalty for that the two months imprisonment Hindering or Obstructing a sentence and the P500 fine are not Law Enforcement Officer corresponding. When we look at KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II the Section which addresses the (BAROLONG): Thank you Mr use of insulting language, it states Chairman. Even though I do not that a person can be sentenced have any figures that I can think to a period not exceeding three of now, I believe that the P500 months imprisonment, or P50, or and two months imprisonment both but when they are compared charges are not enough. When to these ones, there is no balance a person resists to be arrested or at all. We should maybe look makes it impossible for the law into these. I therefore agree enforcement officer to carry out with Kgosi Lotlamoreng II that his/her duties, he/she is capable when the imprisonment term of doing anything. Mr Chairman, is increased, the fine should as imagine a bye- law officer getting well be increased. Thank you Mr injured when trying to arrest Chairman. a person and then we say that MR CHAIRMAN: I believe the charge is only two months that is a suggestion. imprisonment as per the Act. Even though the Bill gives the H O N O U R A B L E two months charge, are we going MOKALAKE: Thank you Mr to stick to that Mr Chairman? Chairman. Honourable Members, Maybe we should increase the I take it that we agree on that fine and probably amend the one, we will try and put those clause to include, with or without in line. The Attorney General corporal punishment instead of has conducted an exercise last a jail sentence. Thank you Mr year and I take it that we will use Chairman those standards as they wanted to align the sentences to the fines. MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi We will refer to it and see the Lotlamoreng II suggests that

84 Tuesday 14th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumesd Debate) appropriate fine as we continue We have the bye law fines and with the resolutions. Thank you. others. It is not clear as to how much the departments make. If MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you. I may cite an example, Tribal KGOSI RAMOKWENA: Administration collects revenue Thank you Mr Chairman. Is there through livestock registration and any specific Act which guides permits and this revenue goes to these fines and imprisonment the Council account where all terms? If so, it should be availed revenue is kept. I do not know if to people to use it when they I am the only one concerned by sentence because now it appears the fact that it is just a summary. that officers use their discretion It appears like other departments to sentence offenders, one would do not submit any revenue to the just say, P5 000 or two months, account, yet they do. I am always P500.00 or P50. concerned with the fact that when revenues of Councils are MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi collected, accounts and audits Ramokwena, I thought the are done there is no difference Minister had said that the even when they make their Attorney General is conducting presentations. Can the Minister an exercise to try and tally these clarify this aspect? If I am out of things and I believe that addresses line you will pardon me because your question as well. I might feel I am making a point Clause 59 agreed to while others do not get what I am Clause 60 agreed to trying to say. Thank you Clause 61 agreed to MR CHAIRMAN: Before the Clause 62 agreed to Minister can clarify, could you please repeat what you have just PART X –REVENUES OF said so that I can understand COUNCIL; ACCOUNTS AND you. AUDITS KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Mr Clause 63 - Revenue of Chairman, we are talking about Council revenues which accumulate on KGOSI BOIDITSWE the Council account. In most (SEROWE REGION): Mr cases the revenue comes from Chairman, there is something the Bye-laws. Therefore my which bothers me with regards concern is that revenue from to the revenues of Councils. Tribal Administration is directed

85 Tuesday 14th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumesd Debate) to the same account. We want while other revenue is generated this revenue to be put in the through tax and other various Tribal Administration account collectables. After we make our because the department generates estimates, the Government gives revenue as well but no one seems us a certain amount and then the to notice that. I am one of those rest is covered by the department’s Members who are concerned collectables and revenue from that the Tribal Administration Tribal Administration forms part Department puts all its revenue of that. in the Council account and there If Honourable Members feel that is no where it is reflected that the the revenue should go towards Tribal Administration is making the Tribal Administration account money. That is why I feel I should or the consolidated account like raise this concern that we are Kgosi has said, we would have aware that the Bye-laws generate disadvantaged ourselves. All income, how will the auditing the finances in the consolidated and accounts be handled? Thank account will be used for different you. purposes, like constructing a H O N O U R A B L E Kgotla in Shakawe or a school in MOKALAKE: Thank you Mr Maitengwe whereas the money is Chairman. I had thought you from Serowe. When one wants a will assist me as you sought that track record of how much Tribal clarification. We are not on bye- Administration has generated, it law, we have moved on to the is very easy as the records are next issue which is revenue for there. Presentation is done at the Councils in general, how they Council and records supplied by generate their revenue. Some the auditors are kept to reflect of the revenues might come revenue from other departments. from the bye-law office but we MR CHAIRMAN: We can pass are not in the bye law Section. 63, right, Honourable Members? Tribal Administration generates It outlines where the revenue for revenue as well as other Council the council comes from. Departments and this revenue goes to the Council account. Clause 64 agreed to These are the revenues that we Clause 65 agreed to use to balance our votes to run Clause 66 agreed to the Councils. The Government gives us a certain percentage Clause 67 agreed to Clause 68 agreed to 86 Tuesday 14th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumesd Debate) Clause 69 agreed to as a consolation after losing the Clause 70 agreed to elections. Those are some of the concerns that we come across, Clause 71 agreed to though they may not be true but PART 11 - ESTABLISHMENT they have been raised nonetheless. OF LOCAL AUTHORITIES I wanted the Minister to clarify that point so that we know the Clause 72 agreed to procedure, that is my point but if Clause 73 agreed to I am not making any sense it is Clause 74 - Membership to the okay we can move on. Committee MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Boiditswe, no one has said you Honourable Minister, which are not making any sense. I criteria are you going to use to wanted you to make a distinction appoint these seven members, between the criteria stipulated will it be from departments or in this Section and the one you from the community at large? want clarification on; I did not Thank you. imply that you are not making any sense. MR CHAIRMAN: I want you to clarify your question Kgosi MINISTER OF LOCAL Boiditswe. It is stated here GOVERNMENT (HON that, ‘shall be persons of good MOKALAKE): Thank you standing in the community Mr Chairman. I take it that the and who possess substantial parameters are in (2) like you knowledge and experience in the have already highlighted. This is areas of accounting and auditing not a committee that is yet to be Local Authorities Financial and established, it is already in place Management Systems or in other and it is under the leadership of matters of nature likely to assist Mr Molosi, the former Permanent the Committee and discharge of Secretary in the Ministry of its functions under this Act.” The Local Government. He is criteria that you want to know well acquainted with issues of about, does it differ with what has auditing. This committee has a been outlined by this Clause? number of auditors, some of them have experience in auditing either KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Yes Parliament or Council accounts. It sir. Complaints are often raised is operating and it is doing such a that other people are nominated fine job. Thank you.

87 Tuesday 14th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumesd Debate) Clause 75 agreed to had thought that he was proposing Clause 76 agreed to the same thing. This could be an answer to his proposal as it is Clause 77 agreed to new but when you look at the Clause 78 agreed to functions; a, b, c and d, they MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable could show the difference, but Minister, as we move on, there then we will see if it is important is too much silence, if there is to look into it. anything new please indicate. Let KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: the existing one be highlighted I now understand. There is as well. I do not know if there coordination between a, b, c, is anything new that has been and d. Maybe I had looked at the introduced composition of the Council, that PART XII – DEVELOPMENT it would now be facilitating the COMMITTEES involvement of the people when the Council sits. Even though Clause 78 – The Establishment the Minister has stated that it is of District or Urban covered in a, b, c, d, maybe the Development Committees establishment of committees KGOSI GAREBAKWENA would not promote community (MOLEPOLOLE REGION): involvement in their regional Thank you Mr Chairman. developments. Yesterday I talked about District KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II Development Committees. I did (BAROLONG): Thank you Mr not understand whether what Chairman. Clause 78 (2) talks I had talked about is already in about the Village Development place and if it is not, whether it Committee (VDC) Chairmanship, is not of importance? Maybe the that it will be chaired by Minister could touch on it as he an Administrative Officer. did not do so yesterday. According to the Interpretation H O N O U R A B L E Act, an Administrative Officer MOKALAKE: Thank you means District Commissioner, Mr Chairman. We have Clause Senior District Officer, District 78 which contains among Officer and Assistant District others, functions. Maybe Kgosi Officer. Mr Chairman, let me Garebakwena could show us the request that we excuse the District difference with the one he was Commissioners, is there nobody proposing because basically we else who can chair the committee

88 Tuesday 14th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumesd Debate) apart from them? I am not saying consulted at all levels. There are the District Commissioners levels in which they should be are not better people but I involved with Dikgosi and other want us to assist them as they community members. When the are overwhelmed with duties, VDC proposes a project then including employment of Land the consultation starts from Board officers. They also form there. That has been the practice part of the Selection Committee. all along and they have never Are these the only officers we complained of the work load have? At the end of the day to date. They have not had any we will end up overwhelming shortfalls but we will keep an eye them with work, let us consider on the matter. Thank you. other officers who can chair KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH committees, those who can assist EAST DISTRICT): Thank you the District Commissioners to Mr Chairman. Does Bogosi have run these committees so that the a say in the District Development committees can still operate even Committee (DDC)? I believe that in the absence of the District DDC is very strategic. When you Commissioners. look at the composition of the H O N O U R A B L E people who make up the DDC, MOKALAKE: This committee and the decisions that are taken came about as a result of a there, you will be astonished. Directive dated 1970, and this Maybe you had not joined the is its composition. The fact Ministry of Local Government that it is chaired by the District yet. I believe that the Permanent Commissioner is just to give Secretary was still with your it some credibility. It is not Ministry. We once lodged a like other officers or Dikgosi complaint against your office, cannot chair it. We had wanted that some decisions bypass us. it to be chaired by someone with Is it not time for Bogosi to be credibility, someone like Kgosi involved Honourable Minister? or the District Commissioner, I do not know if some Members someone who would handle here are already part of the DDC issues with the sensitivity they but my worry is to see the DDC deserve. They do not do this sitting without my knowledge alone Mr Chairman, planning in and not forming part of it. This is general, development plans and a concern Mr Chairman and like so on and so on, the public is I said, maybe some Members

89 Tuesday 14th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumesd Debate) here are part of the DDC but I when they attend the DDC, you do not form part of it. I believe would not get anything positive. that today’s world allows for There is no consultation with transformation, which we see Dikgosi and even after the within the Bogosi institution that meetings, no feedback is given things have changed, Dikgosi whatsoever. I am talking from could contribute in some aspects. my own observation, the DDC is Thank you there but there is no involvement of Dikgosi. You do not have MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable to respond to it, that is our Minister, DDC and the observation. involvement of Dikgosi. Clause 79 Establishment of MINISTER OF LOCAL Village or Ward Development GOVERNMENT (HON Committees MOKALAKE): Kgosi Masunga, do you want to overwhelm KGOSI BOIDITSWE Dikgosi by giving them more (SEROWE REGION): work? It is true that Dikgosi do Thank you Mr Chairman. We not form part of the DDC and we have problems at the Village have the Tribal Secretary instead Development Committees as a member of the Committee (VDCs). In areas like Serowe, but it does not mean that they act we find that we have seven to in isolation. Your contributions eight VDCs and there is a lot of to the committees can be done misunderstanding between the through the Tribal Secretary, VDCs and Dikgosi but we do there should consultation. When not know the cause. You will find the Tribal Secretary attends that other committees cooperate these meetings, they do so on while others do not. It has been behalf of the village and Kgosi. clarified that VDCs do not work Maybe direct input of Kgosi closely with the Councillors could make a difference and that now like before; they work more is something that we can look at. closely with Dikgosi even though But at the moment, we encourage they do work with Councillors consultation. Thank you. as well. Mr Chairman, there are misunderstandings which end up MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable delaying village developments. Minister if you were to conduct Kgosi, as an ex-officio attends a research on the number of VDC meetings, but there are officers who consult Dikgosi times when he may deliberately

90 Tuesday 14th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumesd Debate) delay developments because he issue that concerns VDC should does not get along with the VDC. be communicated with Kgosi. On the other hand the delay We understand that generally, could come from the part of the Kgosi should advise the VDC VDC itself. but at present; that is not the Still on this issue, Clause 79 (3); case. My request is that Dikgosi it states that, “The Councillor be included in orientations as and Kgosi of the area for which a well so that they do not differ in development committee has been understanding when it comes to established, shall be ex-officio village development. Thank you member of the development so much. committee”. I request that the KGOSI RAMOKWENA Clause should start off with (MAUN REGION): Thank you ‘Kgosi’ and read, ‘the Kgosi and Mr Chairman. I request that as the Councillor’, to avoid Dikgosi this clause states that “Kgosi and feeling left out because the Councillor” should be ex-offio Councillor comes before them. members. Kgosi should be given Thank you Mr Chairman. the powers because the VDCs KGOSI SEEMEKO are in their wards or kgotla. (SPECIALLY ELECTED): Kgosi should be given the power Thank you Mr Chairman. I wanted to dissolve the committee if it is to bring the Minister’s attention to not delivering on its mandate. the fact that we are aware that the These people could commit VDC orientations have already fraud together with the social started. However, I think Dikgosi workers but whatever that is should be included in these misused or mismanaged; it orientations, time allowing. We always comes back to Kgosi. have different interpretations Mr Therefore Kgosi should be given Chairman, when they come from full powers to control all the their orientations. When Kgosi village developments and should tries to advise them on following not only be an ex-officio member certain procedures that we know of the committee. Thank you Mr of, they will claim that they have Chairman. been taught something different at KGOSI KAHIKO III the orientation. They would rather (GHANZI WEST REGION): be advised by the social workers. Thank you Mr Chairman. VDC is That was just to advise that they set or established within a village should be made aware that every

91 Tuesday 14th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumesd Debate) setting, within a Kgotla but as Dikgosi, as the village is led somehow Dikgosi do not have by Kgosi. I therefore urge the powers over this Committee. Minister to always remember They are just ordinary members. that the village is led by the They do not have any powers Kgosi and all developments take to manage any misuse or place within that village setting. I mismanagement of resources in do not know how come the VDC the VDC. Why can they not be takes precedence over Kgosi. given full responsibility? We do Thank you. things differently in our regions. MR CHAIRMAN: I close the Mr Chairman, in my region we VDC matter. attend orientations held for the VDCs but I want us to be given H O N O U R A B L E the full responsibility of the VDC MOKALAKE: VDCs are an so that people should know that eyesore, Mr Chairman. We are there is someone who heads up in the process of amending their the VDC. That would be all Mr regulations if I am not mistaken. Chairman. I take it that you are being consulted in your regions on KGOSI LEMPADI: Thank you the fact that we want to amend Mr Chairman. We are concerned the old regulations so that we about VDCs and that is why see which of the changes are we stand in large numbers to appropriate to suit the current debate this issue. I would like situation. Honourable Members, to know where VDC falls, is it as consultations are made in your under the council of Kgosi? I respective regions, please submit am asking this question because contributions such as the ones you the other day the Department are bringing in the House today, of Corruption and Economic be part of the consultations. Mr Crime (DCEC) scolded us for Chairman, I am not sure about funds that have been misused at writing “Kgosi”, before the the VDCs and that we just keep ‘Councillor” in the Bill. All I quiet about this mismanagement know is that Kgosi is the leader of the resources. However, these of the village or region and VDCs funds are mismanaged while operate under his leadership, under the care of the Council operating in his/her community. and Kgosi has no say in those Even though Kgosi is an ex- finances. We want this to be clear officio member of the VDC, at so that we know where we stand the end of the day, Kgosi is their

92 Tuesday 14th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumesd Debate) leader and does not compete with with the community and tell them in any way; they operate them that they are not performing under your leadership. Therefore, according to standards; simple. Kgosi should just advise the Kgosi should not compete with VDC of his/her status and not them under no circumstances. attend the meetings to compete Like Kgosi Boiditswe rightly with the village Councillor. pointed out, at times Kgosi might When Members mention that be having his issues and might Kgosi should appear before only want his favourites as part of Councillor on paper, it would the VDC, with no transparency, not really make a difference. good governance and leadership. Yes, we can put it like that but I visited one village in the the order in which these names Kweneng region and an issue appear does not have any bearing was raised that Kgosi, his wife in the position. When your name and their child wanted to replace appears first, it does not mean the existing VDC members you are the Chairman or the as they did not like them and overall leader. It is true that at wanted only their relatives in the some point politicians confuse committee, as it was beneficial to the VDC and may cause conflicts be part of the committee. Make a between them and Bogosi. It follow up on my Kgotla meetings may be the Councillor or the around the Kweneng region and Member of Parliament who is in you will note where I was but actual fact the one causing this certainly it was not Molepolole. confusion. Those are the issues I was told that Kgosi wanted to we could look into separately, replace the existing VDC and they do not form part of the VDC that he has proposed that the system. treasurer and the secretary of the committee be elected by Kgosi I think it is a fair proposal for in that village, I then became Dikgosi to be included when suspicious. I urge Members not VDCs go for their orientation. In to demean themselves but to let fact, it should be like that so that the community judge the wrong both parties know their mandate. doers, the community is under Honourable Members, when there the leadership of Kgosi and Kgosi is a problem with the VDC, Kgosi should not be in direct conflict does not have to fight with them, with them. When there is conflict they fall under your leadership. caused by either the Councillor You should call them together or Member of Parliament, call all

93 Tuesday 14th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumesd Debate) of them to discuss the matter and constituencies, the first thing that put things in order. Mr Chairman, should happen is that, the VDC for Kgosi to disband the VDC Chairman gives me a financial after it has been elected by the report and reports on the status of community, it would not be right. any project before he makes any If one of the committee members new requests. They do that three is incompetent, let them be voted to four times a year. We want that out by the community. Let the kind of a report to be a common committee be questioned. If there feature country wide. Umbrella is an element of incompetency VDC at Serowe has to report at or if there is any form of the main Kgotla time and again, mismanagement, the committee they should get the authority should be properly disbanded. from you and therefore if you do The office will provide you not guide them, it becomes tough with the Social and Community for you to manage them. Development (S&CD) personnel HONOURABLE MEMBER: to monitor the developments. If ...(Inaudible)... they are disturbed by a particular individual, then that is where H O N O U R A B L E Kgosi comes in to bring stability. MOKALAKE: They should not only report issues when the I do not want us to personalize President is around, that should these issues. One issue that I not be the case. However, do not always raise when addressing demean your status by being in Kgotla meetings is that; the VDC direct conflict with them. Thank should be accountable to you, you. there should be a schedule for progress update reports by the MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you committee but if I were to ask Honourable Minister. The reason this House how many of you why Kgosi Boiditswe questions have those in place, I am sure why the Bill says, ‘Councillor we will not have many people, and Kgosi’ not other way around, yet the VDC regulations clearly is that sometimes the way these state the number of times the things are written has certain VDC has to give its progress implications. If indeed the VDC report to the community. From is under the leadership of Kgosi my constituency I have told and the community, why then is them that as we are given the it not possible for Kgosi to be opportunity to go and address our written first in the Bill? Let it

94 Tuesday 14th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumesd Debate) be something that the Minister of Local Authorities (BALA) should look into. VDCs are includes all Local Government committees with no leadership employees; Councils and us as but Dikgosi are expected to do well. Maybe he could rephrase it. something about them. If we MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi were to count those VDCs who was asking if it would not be recognize Kgosi as their leader, better to change the name. The they would be few. Association is called the Local PART XIII - Government Association and MISCELLANEOUS Dikgosi form part of Local Government but Sub Section 3 Clause 80 agreed to outlines Councillors as members Clause 81 agreed to of the Association. Clause 82 - Local Government H O N O U R A B L E Association MOKALAKE: The aim of this Association is that all Local KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II Government staff be members of (BAROLONG): Thank you Mr the Association. This Association Chairman. I am not against the is international; we have the Association and I believe it is an Commonwealth Association Association which is similar to and others. We could have the one in place. I would like to the Botswana chapter like we know if it is not possible for us proposed, since we have the to come up with a different name South African and Zimbabwean rather than the Local Government Associations etcetera. Maybe the Association. Local Government membership part is not clearly includes us as well but when we defined and we do not know look at Sub Section 3, the one how best we could explain it. We addressing membership, we find take it that people from different that it specifically states that it is Councils can be members of the for Councillors.. Thank you Mr Association. Maybe you could Chairman. propose the name and probably it H O N O U R A B L E could fix things. Thank you. MOKALAKE: Maybe I did not KGOSI KAHIKO III (GHANZI get Kgosi’s comment. Could he WEST REGION): Thank you clarify it more or give an example Mr Chairman. With regard to in the form of a proposal. I take what Kgosi Lotlamoreng II said, it that Botswana Association

95 Tuesday 14th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumesd Debate) Honourable Minister, would it H O N O U R A B L E not be better if you could amend MOKALAKE:….(Inaudible) the Sub Section 3 so that it KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH accommodates all of us in terms EAST REGION): Thank you Mr of membership. Thank you Mr Chairman. I am against the way the Chairman. clause on dissolution of Councils H O N O U R A B L E appears. I am of the opinion that MOKALAKE: Then it means it would be better if the Minister that Kgosi will come up with a could appoint a temporary proposal which we will consider. board or committee to look into I had thought that this will be problems that the Council maybe straight forward since Dikgosi encountering. We will keep on are members of the council citing examples and I think it is together with the Councillors. allowed. Like what has happened However, if you want us to make at the Selibe Phikwe Council, I it more explicit then we can go believe we will continue keeping ahead and do that, there is no an eye on the situation. Under a problem. Thank you. more transparent and legitimate procedure, maybe the Minister Clause 83 - Power to Reject, could appoint a committee that Vary or Amend a Resolution. will look into what brings about Clause 83 agreed to. conflicts within the Council and then before he could dissolve the H O N O U R A B L E Council, look at the report from MOKALAKE: That is a new the committee. The Minister is one. also a politician. He is a member MR CHAIRMAN: The Minister of a political organisation which says it is new, if there is no makes it possible for him to comment we move on to 84. impose certain interests of his own, Clause 84 agreed to. which come from his political affiliation and they may end up Clause 85 agreed to overriding the normal procedure. Clause 86 agreed to Even though we are to make Clause 87 agreed to resolutions, I think a committee is Clause 88 - Dissolution of a much more suitable procedure Councils and the community could have more confidence in a public Is it new as well, Honourable institution which could have such Minister?

96 Tuesday 14th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumesd Debate) a committee. We also have to Clause 91agreed to protect the Minister so that people MR CHAIRMAN: If we do not do not blame him for using his have any comments we can move discretion other than following on to schedules. And if we have proper procedures. Thank you. them we will deal with them just MINISTER OF LOCAL like any other clauses because GOVERNMENT (HON the law states that, any schedules MOKALAKE): I take it that it to a Bill shall be dealt with in the is addressing good governance. same manner as clauses. Let us start by looking at Sowa Schedule 1- Functions of Township as an example; in the Councils interest of the Minister or by his observation, he may say it When we look at that, it refers is no longer necessary to have us to clauses that are already such a Council and decides to covered in the Act. dissolve it. The other one Kgosi 1-Education agreed to is referring to is in a situation whereby, still in the interest of 2-Health and Sanitation agreed governance, one may find that to there are conflicts which hamper 3-Collection and Management of progress within the Council, like Waste agreed to the Selibe Phikwe issue. The Minister can intervene in such 4- Communications cases. In cases where properties KGOSI MONTSHIWA and others things are involved, (KGALAGADI NORTH): the Council has to be dissolved to Thank you Mr Chairman. On form a new one and the property Number 4, Schedule I, I suggest is moved from that Council to the that the community should new one or formalising whether propose the street and road the property could be sold or not, names and bring proposals to the that is what it means, without Council, and then the Council going for elections. I do not fire forwards the proposals to the Councillors and by the Council Minister. Thank you. we mean the whole Council institution. Thank you KGOSI BOIDITSWE (SEROWE REGION): I concur Part 14- Repeal, Savings and with what Kgosi Montshiwa has Transition said. Let these streets and roads Clause 90 agreed to be named after our parents who

97 Tuesday 14th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumesd Debate) have contributed to this nation, if 12:30 and we shall adjourn for we take Gaborone for example, lunch. It appears we have made some of the names we do not progress so far. When we come know of their origin. We know back we will wrap up what we that our parents were not educated have discussed and see how we but the nation knows of their proceed to the third part which is contribution. I strongly agree the resolutions from this House. with what Kgosi Montshiwa has PROCEEDINGS said. Thank you Mr Chairman SUSPENDED FOR LUNCH H O N O U R A B L E MR CHAIRMAN: Good MOKALAKE: I do not have afternoon Honourable Members, a problem with the procedure Minister and all Government of naming streets or roads. officials here present. When we We believe that the people in a adjourned for lunch we were particular setting should propose at schedule 1 and we were on such names but it is only on sections 4, 5 and 6 which we had rare cases where the proposed just completed. We now move on names are rejected and in most the next page which addresses cases residents do not have any the Functions of Councils. problem with their proposed names. When we see the street 4 agreed to name Xauxau around Gaborone, 5and 6 agreed to it means that the people who were in that area proposed that 7, 8,9,10 agreed to name. We do not want it to 14 Abattoirs appear like we undermine other names and use only the ones KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Thank which are familiar to us. This is you Mr Chairman. Number14 of one issue that we do not have a Schedule I, “maintain and operate problem with; other names are abattoirs and to fix bye law from other countries while other reasonable fees..”, maybe this Act streets carry Presidents names could bring some developments from other countries, in honour to abattoirs. We have outbreaks of those by the Republic. Thank of foot and mouth disease, in you. some areas the abattoirs assist people as there is a tendency to MR CHAIRMAN: Let us slaughter stolen cattle. Through stop there as far as naming the abattoirs, there is monitoring to streets is concerned as it is now help curb livestock theft. As the 98 Tuesday 14th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumesd Debate) act covers abattoirs, consider it is in the middle of the village expanding them. When we take and it is small. In most areas, the Serowe abattoir for example, abattoirs do not operate due to it is too small yet the village financial constraints and I take it has many butcheries. We have that financial status permitting, long requested for an abattoir we will renovate some because in Palapye, Mr Chairman, but some of them have failed the we have not had any response veterinary inspection and they to date. We have even tried to have been closed because of make the Government aware that that. Finances do not permit Mr we slaughter our cattle from our Chairman, and there is nothing kraals and makeshift slaughter we can do, even the Gaborone houses and nothing goes well one has been closed. Thank you. because of other people being KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II stubborn. I want the Minister (BAROLONG): Mr Chairman, to give an explanation here I believe we have completed because this Act will find the issue on abattoirs. I need existing applications, how will clarification on something the Minister combine this Act even though what I want to and the requisitions for abattoirs. ask might be in place already. Thank you Mr Chairman. I want to know whether on MR CHAIRMAN: Before the Number 16, would we not find Minister responds, if there is ourselves giving the Councils anything new, let it be clarified to other peoples’ responsibilities? avoid a situation where we spend I believe there are people who time on something that has been are mandated to maintain law there, maybe the problem arising and order in Botswana, more from the way we use it. so that Number 9 stipulates that councils should implement the MINISTER OF LOCAL Bye laws they have created. If GOVERNMENT (HON we give them the responsibility MOKALAKE): Thank you Mr to maintain law and order, then Chairman. The one addressing I believe that somewhere we abattoirs has been there, it is not will cause conflict between the new. Kgosi is right in saying that Councils and the people who have some abattoirs are not doing well, been given the responsibility to including the one in Gaborone. I maintain law and order. Thank am aware that even the Serowe you Mr Chairman. abattoir is always overflowing,

99 Tuesday 14th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumesd Debate) H O N O U R A B L E this part. Could you try to explain MOKALAKE: Thank you Mr the services referred to here? I Chairman, thank you Kgosi. I heard you saying that they are do not see why we should have related to the ones we talked a conflict. Earlier on I explained about earlier on. This Bill is that we should make sure that the confusing and we should not let Act should gel with other laws, it pass while we are confused, the we should not have stand-alone said services confuse me, maybe laws. We are talking about areas you could cite examples, or the that are within our jurisdiction as Minister could. Councils. We are talking about MR CHAIRMAN: For clarity, schools, markets and others, read Clause 42 and try to see those are areas that are under our how it relates to the one on jurisdiction and we can even go this Schedule, Clause 42 is the beyond that, trying to maintain one about ‘Power to make Bye law and order outside with the –laws.’ I will quote the last line; Police, Bogosi and everybody “may make bye-laws for all else because that should be our or any of the purposes set out responsibility as Batswana. in Schedule I, and prescribing Thank you. service and user fees set out in MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Schedule II”. These are the ones 17, 18, 19. being referred to. They should be read in conjunction with another. H O N O U R A B L E MOKALAKE: 18 is new. Schedule III; “Services for which service and user fees shall MR CHAIRMAN: Is there be set by resolution of a Council”, any comment on 18 - parking Likewise, it should be read along facilities? Even though it is new, with Clause 62 which says, “a it is acceptable. The last page, Council shall, by resolution, Schedule II - Service And User set service and user fees for the Fees For Councils. The services services set out in Schedule III”. are listed. If we remember well, For example, when one rents out these complement the ones we a classroom, “how much it will referred to earlier on, the ones on cost”, will be determined by the powers of arrest, search warrants Council. That is what Clause 62 and others. says. It has listed out the service KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Mr and user fees to be made by the Chairman, I do not understand Council. If we do not have any

100 Tuesday 14th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Resolution comments on Schedule III, we look at the proposed resolutions have completed the Second from Honourable Members and Reading of the Bill that is, to see how we can amend them to debate it clause by clause. come up with what we will own as a resolution from this House. I BILL was thinking that the Honourable LOCAL GOVERNMENT Minister and Members should BILL, 2011 (NO. 3 OF 2011) give themselves time to look at the resolutions and see where we Resolution stand. Maybe Members could MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you meet and agree on a few issues so Honourable Members, we have that we make resolutions basing completed the First and the on what we have agreed on. I do Second reading of the Bill. We not see any reason why we could now move on to our Resolutions, differ on any issue because it will as stipulated by Part VIII of our not serve any purpose. Rules of Procedure on Bills; H O N O U R A B L E Rule 39(6) which stipulates MOKALAKE: Thank you that “When consideration of a Kgosi. That is a great idea, and I resolution of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi on concur with it. a Bill is taken, any Member may bring a draft resolution on the Bill MR CHAIRMAN: I take it that for consideration of the Ntlo Ya it depends on Members if they Dikgosi, (and the draft shall be agree to the suggestion I was entered in full on the minutes of putting across and if it could proceedings of Ntlo ya Dikgosi). work for them. When all such drafts have been KGOSI SEEMEKO brought up, the Chairperson shall (SPECIALLY ELECTED): move the drafts in order until Thank you Mr Chairman. There one is accepted as a basis for is nothing more to say, I had discussion, beginning with his wanted to propose what the or her own draft and proceeding Chairman had proposed. Thank with the remainder in the order in you sir! which they were brought up.” MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you As we have been debating the Kgosi Seemeko. I do not know Bill and making contributions if there is anything different towards the Bill, it is now time from what Kgosi Seemeko has for the House to come up with the tabled. With that, I request that resolutions of the Bill. We will 101 Wednesday 15th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Resolution (Resumed Debate) we adjourn for some minutes MR CHAIRMAN: I believe and meet to sort our resolutions. that the Members have granted Honourable Minister, I believe me the permission. We shall start that we will meet tomorrow, today’s business. as we will be discussing the LOCAL GOVERNMENT resolutions, the programme starts BILL, 2011 (NO. 3 OF 2011). at 1430 hours. Resolution ADJOURNMENT (Resumed Debate) The meeting adjourned at 14:42p.m until Wednesday 15th MR CHAIRMAN: For the past June 2011 at 1430 hours. two days we have been looking at the Local Government Bill and Wednesday 15th June, 2011 we have done the First and Second THE HOUSE met at 2.30 a.m. Readings of the Bill. The next (THE CHAIRMAN in the stage therefore, is the resolution Chair) of Ntlo ya Dikgosi on the Bill as P R A Y E R S stipulated by Section 39 (vi) of the Rules of Procedure, it reads * * * * thus, ‘When consideration of a CHAIRMAN’S REMARKS Resolution of Ntlo ya Dikgosi on a Bill is taken, any Member may MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI bring a draft resolution on the GABORONE): Good afternoon Bill for the consideration of Ntlo once more Honourable ya Dikgosi, and the draft shall be Members, Honourable Ministers entered in full on the minutes of and the Local Government proceedings of Ntlo ya Dikgosi. Administration. I believe that When all such drafts have been we all have today’s Order brought up, the Chairperson Paper. I would like to request shall move the drafts in order this House that we start off by until one is accepted as a basis considering the Bill and then if for discussion beginning with we have time, we can go on to her/his own draft and proceeding address questions for the day. If with the remainder in the order in Honourable Members allow me, which they were brought up.’ we shall move on. I do not know if the permission is granted? That being the case, we hope that the draft resolutions have HONOURABLE MEMBERS been brought and they shall be :…( Inaudible)… read paragraph by paragraph. 102 Wednesday 15th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Resolution (Resumed Debate) Once any such question has been Government Bill, 2011 (No. 3 agreed to, no motion shall be of 2011).’The introduction says moved in respect of further drafts that, “That this House supports but portion thereof may be offered the enactment of the Legislation as amendments to the drafts under and recommends that it be passed, consideration if they are relevant but consideration should be made to it. I take it that I explained this on the following resolutions.” procedure yesterday and at this In this Bill, Members are more juncture I will receive the draft focused on Clause 4, 6, 7 and 8 of resolutions on the Bill. the Bill. When these are clustered, KGOSI LOTLAMORENG Honourable Members believe II (BAROLONG): Thank you that, “prior consultation should be Mr Chairman. Let me request undertaken with the community to present my resolution on the in respect of exercise of the consideration of the Bill. function under Clause 4, 6, 7 and 8 of the Bill”. This means when MR CHAIRMAN: I have decisions are taken to establish received a draft resolution as Councils for each Administrative presented by Kgosi Lotlamoreng District, that is, at that point when II. I do not know if there are any establishment of subordinate more draft resolutions on this authorities, conferment of city clause? If there are no more drafts, status and declaration of township I believe that Members agree that are considered, there should be this draft be used as the basis of consultations with the community our discussion as is stipulated in those areas; it should not only by our Rules of Procedure. The be the decisions of the Councils.” rule goes on to explain that the That is our first paragraph. I do Chairman will move paragraph not know if there is something by paragraph and if there are which the members would like any amendments then they to comment on regarding this shall be considered. I will read paragraph? the Resolutions of this House for the Honourable Minister of HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Local Government who is the ... (Silence)... Minister concerned for this Bill. MR CHAIRMAN: If there is The Resolutions for this House no comment, the rules state that read, ‘Ntlo ya Dikgosi met and when all paragraphs of the draft made the following resolutions resolution have been disposed of on the following Bill; Local

103 Wednesday 15th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Resolution (Resumed Debate) in this way, the Chairperson shall Assembly referred to in Section move that that paragraph stand 62 of the Constitution”, part of the resolution. be amended to include the part Question put and agreed to. which reads thus, “they should be people who are able to speak, and MR CHAIRMAN: Moving on unless incapacitated by blindness to 12; Members believe that, as and other physical course, and to the Bill states, “All Members read English well enough to take of Ntlo ya Dikgosi should be an active part in the proceedings ex-officio Members of Councils of the council.” This is what within their areas and regions members have resolved. according to the Constitution.” Question put and agreed to. Still on this clause, Section 12 (4) Constitution of Councils; Vacation of Seats Members resolved that, “Dikgosi MR CHAIRMAN: The main within the jurisdiction of Council focus here is on the sections should also be ex-officio members which deal with how a Councillor of the Council.” Like in the North may vacate the seat. Members East and Kgalagadi District as have resolved that floor crossing they have been cited as examples. should be allowed, there should It is also resolved that Moemela be freedom of association. One is Kgosi and Kgosi as defined in free to associate with any party Bogosi Act, Section 22 (ii) in the or anyone. I do not see any hand Administrative District, should to comment on this resolution also be ex-officio members of the and if Members agree, let this Sub-District Council. Members paragraph form part of the wanted that one to be included. resolution of this House Question put and agreed to. Question put and agreed to. 14 - Qualification for Quorum Membership of Council Clause 22 of the Bill states that, MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable ‘the presence of more than half Members believe that the Section of the members of a Council which says; “…that person is shall constitute a quorum’. This qualified to vote in any election for House has resolved that the members of the Council and does quorum should be constituted not possess the disqualifications by the presence of more than for membership of the National 2/3 members of a Council. If 104 Wednesday 15th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Resolution (Resumed Debate) Members permit, I move that Question put and agreed to. this paragraph form part of the PART VIII resolution of this House. Clause 37(2); Valuation and Question put and agreed to. rating of properties Records to be Kept MR CHAIRMAN: It is MR CHAIRMAN: This clause said that, “Minister may, by states that, proceedings of every regulations, prescribe procedures meeting of a council and every for valuation and rating of committee shall be recorded in properties.’ Honourable Members the English language, and shall be have resolved that, ‘The Minister kept for that purpose. Honourable in regulating procedures for Members have resolved that, valuation, rating of properties and ‘the clause should be amended the fixing and levying of rates on to read, “proceedings of every land and properties within Council meeting of a Council and every area.” The Minister should committee should be recorded exclude residential properties and in both English and Setswana masimo.’ Since in most areas, languages.” This House believes ploughing fields are within the that the native language should residential area. We do not want to be promoted so that other people find ourselves in a situation where who cannot read English language we will be affected by certain can be able to read the Setswana procedures because we have version of the proceedings and given the Minister all the powers. minutes of every meeting of a Maybe as time goes on, we could Council. Is there anything more reconsider the current procedures. that Members wish to add on this The House is requesting that resolution? If not, I plead to move residential properties be excluded that this paragraph stands part of so that Batswana do not end up the resolution for this House. being affected by tax payments. With that I plead to move that Question put and agreed to. this paragraph be part of the This one talks about definition, resolutions for the House. which defines precincts. This MINISTER OF LOCAL House has resolved that this be GOVERNMENT (HON moved to Clause 2 since it deals MOKALAKE): I have said that with definitions. I plead to move because I am not sure about the that this be part of the resolutions procedure, I need clarification on for this House. 105 Wednesday 15th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Resolution (Resumed Debate) that one before members pass it. therefore would like to point out Even though we proposed that that many houses in one plot do this levy should not be put on not necessarily mean that they residential properties, it is better are constructed for commercial left open. Residential properties purposes; they could be non- are different in the sense that commercial like we are saying. in our home villages, some are Thank you Mr Chairman. commercial even though they are MR CHAIRMAN: I do not in residential properties. They understand if Kgosi Mosadi is are called multi residential flats proposing an amendment to this or developed plots. These are resolution? plots which have been allocated by the Land Board lawfully, KGOSI SEBOKO: I move that one can be given 1 hectare of we amend it as it is of concern land and they would build 50 to the Minister, so that it should houses for rental. We have these read, non commercial residential plots in areas like Gaborone, properties, even masimo, we Mogoditshane and Tlokweng. understand that we mean small We had left it knowing that there holdings for Batswana. are those specific areas in which MR CHAIRMAN: I do not the Council can use its discretion know if Members agree to the because they are commercial. amendment which has been KGOSI SEBOKO (BALETE): proposed by Kgosi Seboko? Thank you Mr Chairman. I do KGOSI MONNAATHEBE not know whether it will help (THAMAGA REGION): Thank if we could indicate that we are you Mr Chairman. We agree to referring to non commercial, the proposal. since those flats that are being referred to there, are constructed MR CHAIRMAN: In other for commercial purposes. The words, the resolution will read concern here is that if we leave thus, “The Minister in regulating it open, the Minister might next procedures for valuation, rating week include the residential of properties and fixing and properties. A person might not levying of rates on land and be working but have a property properties within a Council area, with a high value rate and they should exclude non commercial will be expected to pay the rates residential properties and as per the value of their house. I masimo”.

106 Wednesday 15th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Resolution (Resumed Debate) Question put and agreed to. posting a notice on notice boards, website in the area affected and PART IX by publication and posting of Clause 42; Powers of Council the by-laws at the public places to make Bye-laws including the holding of Kgotla meetings”. Members propose MR CHAIRMAN: In this clause, that we should not only confine third and fourth lines, Members ourselves to notice boards as the have resolved that it should read, other forum for us Batswana is ‘A Council may make Bye-laws Kgotla meetings, therefore public for the area in respect of which it places should include Dikgotla. has been established, or any part I do not know if there is any of the Council, in respect of all comment on this resolution? If matters as it considers necessary not, I move that this paragraph or desirable for the maintenance forms part of the resolution of of the health, environment, this House. safety, and well being of the inhabitants.’ The House requests Question put and agreed to. that since these days we talk 54-Procedure after Arrest about issues of environment, the word ‘environment’ be included This clause only mentions the just after the word ‘health’ so that Criminal Procedure and Evidence the environment forms part of the Act. The resolution as proposed issues we should look into. I do by this House is that the Criminal not know if there is any comment Procedure and Evidence Act on the resolution? If not, I plead should not be the only one to move that this be part of the used in this case, Members say resolution for this House. that we should consider other existing laws and be broad. That Question put and agreed to. is the resolution brought by the Clause 44; Miscellaneous House. If there is no comment provisions regarding Bye-laws I will move that this paragraph forms part of the resolution of Honourable Members have this House resolved that this Clause should be amended to read thus “Before Question put and agreed to. Bye-laws are submitted to the There is Part XII, Clause 78. Minister for approval, they Clause 78 addresses District or should be communicated to the Urban Development Committees. inhabitants of the area affected by Here, Members have resolved 107 Wednesday 15th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Resolution (Resumed Debate) that Dikgosi or Kgosi should MR CHAIRMAN: What the be allowed to be a member Members have resolved is that of the District Development the VDCs should be politically Committee. I do not know if neutral. That is what Dikgosi there is any comment on this have resolved. Even though we resolution. are aware that members of the VDC have different political MINISTER OF LOCAL affiliates, the main objective of GOVERNMENT (HON the VDC is the development of MOKALAKE): Let me get the village. Therefore we should an explanation, which Kgosi not associate it with any political are we referring to? Are we party to avoid a situation where referring to Kgosikgolo who they will be biased to a certain oversees that area and what are political party. I do not know we saying about the members of if there is a comment on the the Secretariat who have been resolution. representatives? Do they form part of the committee as well or KGOSI BOIDITSWE not? Thank you. (SEROWE REGION): It is like that Mr Chairman. You have KGOSI KAHIKO III rightly pointed out that this is for (GHANZI WEST REGION): the development of the village. Thank you Mr Chairman. When we take political sides, it Kgosikgolo in that area is the will hamper the development of one who will attend, he/she is the village. Instead of developing the Head of Departments in that the village, we will be solving area and it means that he/she will misunderstandings. The village appear together with the District developments have to continue Commissioner and others. without any political interference. MR CHAIRMAN: Understood We know and understand that the Honourable Minister? members have different parties but for the sake of the village MR MOKALAKE: Yes, sir. developments, political interests MR CHAIRMAN: Do we have should be put aside. Thank you. any comments on clause 78 MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Honourable Members? I move that this paragraph stands Question put and agreed to. part of the resolution for this 79- Village Development House. Committees (VDCs) 108 Wednesday 15th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Resolution (Resumed Debate) H O N O U R A B L E the Council.” They feel that a MOKALAKE: Thank you copy of the statement should be Mr Chairman. Yesterday this published and individuals could House had some issues on the then pay if they need certain position of some two names, information from the Council. something which is related to H O N O U R A B L E this resolution. Did you abandon MOKALAKE: Thank you Mr the suggestion? Chairman. We were wondering MR CHAIRMAN: Which how it could be published through position? the private media looking at its volume. I had thought that you H O N O U R A B L E meant newspapers as the report MOKALAKE: The one cannot be published through the regarding the Councillor and radio. Given its bulkiness; it might Kgosi, should Kgosi come first end up being expensive to publish or what? it as they charge per page. MR CHAIRMAN: I could state KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II the House’s stand on that one. (BAROLONG): Mr Chairman Members were saying that Kgosi we understand what the Minister should come first as opposed to is saying and we concur with him. the current setup. I think you had I believe that we always have responded to that Honourable the State of the Nation Address Minister, that at the end of the or Budget Speeches which are day it does not matter who bulky as well yet they are always comes first. The issue here is that published in newspapers and I Kgosi is an ex-officio member take it that the same procedure of the VDC as the leader of that could be followed with this one village. H O N O U R A B L E Question put and agreed to. MOKALAKE: With due Let us go back Honourable respect Mr Chairman, this kind Minister, Section 68, which talks of a report cannot be publicised. about copies of statement and It is going to be costly, if the report to be supplied. Members Honourable Member was have resolved that the clause referring to us publicising only should not only read, “this report abstracts which are 10 pages or is given to any inhabitant of the so, I would understand. Auditor area upon payment of a fee as General’s reports are bulky, may be fixed by resolution of 109 Wednesday 15th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Resolution (Resumed Debate) will we manage? It is going to an abstract or an abridge version be costly for all to access it in of the statement will be published the sense that we would want instead of the bulky document. If to recover the costs used to Members permit, we could make publicise it. The State of the that amendment and move that Nation Address speech might be only the abstract information bulky but we try to take abstracts or an abridged version of the to make it manageable. statement be published by the press. KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH EAST REGION): Thank you KGOSI BOIDITSWE Mr Chairman. Let me greet the (SEROWE REGION): We Minister, Permanent Secretaries allow you, Mr Chairman. By so and the Members of this House. doing we will be driving one of We understand that this report is the Vision 2016 pillars, being an bulky but I take it that abstracts informed nation. We therefore could be published like he is concur with you that it should be saying. However, he should like that and like the Minister has remember that democracy is rightly said it would save costs to a very expensive project. We just publish the abstracts. Thank are trying to cultivate a culture you. of reading in Botswana since MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Batswana are not interested If that is the case, then I move in reading but then when the that this paragraph forms part of material is put on newspapers, it the resolution of this House. can be something which can be in a position of discussion for Question put and agreed to. most of the people. Also, to cater The other thing that the Members for those who do not reside in the have resolved is that all ex-officio area, they can be interested to members of Council should be assist their Councils while they availed documentation just as it are in Gaborone. Thank you. was in the old Act. That is Section MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi 43 of the old Act. They feel that Masunga, thank you. Honourable there is nothing relating to this Members are concerned that in this new Bill. Therefore they some information should be should be availed documentation publicised by the press but if just as it was in the old Act. I do Members allow me, we could not know if there is a comment amend this resolution to say that on that one. And if not I move

110 Wednesday 15th June, 2011 Local Government Bill, 2011 Resolution (Resumed Debate) that this paragraph stands part of of, the Chairperson shall put the the resolutions for this House. question that the resolution be the resolution of the Ntlo ya Dikgosi.” Question put and agreed to. I did put the question earlier on Schedule 1(4) for additions to the paragraphs of the resolution but no one has Another one Honourable shown that they wanted to make Members, is Schedule 1 additions. Therefore, I will move (4), the one that talks about according to our Rules, that we communications. On street agree that this resolution is the names and roads, their resolution resolution for this House on the is that, “Prior consultation with Local Government Bill 2011 the community be made when (No. 3 of 2011). Do Members naming roads and streets.” As agree that this is the resolution much as consultation was sought of this House? If we all agree on most issues, this one should that we have exhausted all the not be left out. Briefly, those paragraphs of the resolution then are the resolutions reached by we will follow our procedure, I the Honourable Members with shall now put the question. regards to the Local Government Bill, 2011 (No. 3 of 2011). I Question put and agreed to. will refer back to our Rules of Honourable Minister, Ntlo ya Procedure, 39 (8), it states that, Dikgosi Resolution is on this “When all paragraphs of the draft paper. We have completed our resolution have been disposed of exercise through the First, Second in this way, any Member may Reading and Resolution of this move without notice to add any House. Like the Rule states, the new paragraph to the draft.” I do Secretary shall forward a copy of not know if there is any Member every such Resolution certified who would like to add on to our under his or her hand and the resolutions? It appears there is no hand of the Chairperson as a true one. copy thereof to the Clerk of the Section 39(9) National Assembly. I believe that we have followed the procedure Section 39(9) states that, and the Resolution will be “When all consideration of a certified under the Secretary’s draft resolution, paragraph by hand and the Chairperson. That paragraph is concluded and having been said and done, we when all motions relating to new have come to the end of the paragraphs have been disposed 111 Wednesday 15th June, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer consideration of the Bill. I do not is passed. I believe that we have know if the Honourable Minister learnt a lot by the consideration has any vote of thanks he would of this Bill. That said, we have like to extend to the Members completed the consideration of after three (3) days of considering the bill, we move on with the this Bill which he referred to this business of this House. House. QUESTIONS FOR ORAL MINISTER OF LOCAL ANSWER GOVERNMENT (HON PROVISION OF SECURITY MOKALAKE): I cannot decline GUARDS AND BURGLAR the opportunity to thank you Mr BARS AT TRIBAL Chairman and the Honourable ADMINISTRATION Members for the job well done. You have done this whole KGOSI TOTO II heartedly; if we continue like this (KGALAGADI SOUTH): it will improve work relations. asked the Minister of Local Despite having different points Government to state:- of view, at least we have reached i) when the Tribal Administration a consensus, we have had Department will be provided constructive resolution which with security guards following show that you had internalised the merger between Local this Bill. Thank you very much Police and the Botswana for the work you have done and Police Service; and we will also do our part. Thank you. ii) when the Tribal Administration offices will MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you be fitted with burglar bars for Honourable Minister. I believe security purposes. that even Members are happy for considering this Bill. Every MINISTER OF LOCAL time a Bill is referred to this GOVERNMENT (HON House, it is a learning curve for MOKALAKE): Thank you us more so that it gives Members Mr Chairman. ` Mr Chairman, the opportunity to study the Bill due to financial constraints my from the first to the last page. And Ministry was not provided with I believe that as we are Members positions of Night watchmen of the Councils, we should all during the 2011/2012 manpower know that we have formed part of budget. However, these positions the whole process when this Bill have been requested again

112 Wednesday 15th June, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer through the 2012/13 financial Administration, requested for year manpower estimates, and posts of Headman of Records for if approved will solve the issue Werda, Tsabong, Makopong and of security in the Customary Bogobogobo in their 2010/2011 Courts. Regarding the provision financial year manpower. of security to buildings, there is However, due to the economic backlog of Tribal Administration down turn, no new posts offices that need to be fitted with were approved countrywide burglar bars. In order to address for 2010/2011 financial year. the problem, there is an on- These posts have since been re- going exercise for fitting Tribal submitted for consideration for Administration offices with the next financial year. Thank burglar bars for security purposes. you Mr Chairman. This exercise is being continued KGOSI TOTO II: Thank you during the current financial year Mr Chairman. in accordance with the approved budgetary allocation. Due to SUPPLY OF TWO MINI financial constraints, this will BUSES AND TRUCKS TO obviously not cover all Tribal KGALAGADI TRIBAL Administration buildings country ADMINISTRATION wide this year. Thank you. KGOSI TOTO II KGOSI TOTO II: Thank you (KGALAGADI SOUTH): Mr Chairman. asked the Minister of Local Government if he will consider PROGRESS ON POSTS OF supplying the Kgalagadi Tribal HEADMEN OF RECORDS Administration with two KGOSI TOTO II minibuses and two trucks for use (KGALAGADI SOUTH): by Kgalagadi North and South asked the Minister of Local Districts. Government what the progress is MINISTER OF LOCAL regarding the posts of Headmen GOVERNMENT of Records which were requested ( H O N O U R A B L E for the villages of Werda, Tsabong MOKALAKE): Thank you Mr 2, Makopong and Bogogobo. Chairman, thank you Kgosi Toto MINISTER OF LOCAL II. My Ministry has no plans of GOVERNMENT (HON supplying the Kgalagadi Tribal MOKALAKE): It is indeed Administration with minibuses true that the Kgalagadi Tribal and trucks since these can be

113 Wednesday 15th June, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer hired from Central Transport and implementation with other Organisation (CTO) or borrowed equally deserving projects when from other Government the financial situation improves. Departments as and when Mr Chairman, in the current required. That notwithstanding, National Development Plan even if funds were available there are no plans to tarmac roads it would not be economically within the villages of Mmadinare prudent to purchase such type and Sefhophe. Thank you of vehicles which would not be KGOSI SEELETSO: Mr used to full capacity. Thank you. Chairman, I understand the first PLANS TO TARMAC statement but as for the second ROADS WITHIN statement pertaining to the MMADINARE, SEFOPHE, tarmacking of the Mmadinare/ SHASHE-MOOKE/BOROTSI Sefhophe villages, Honourable AND MATHANGWANE Minister, is it not in your power to outsource a grader to grade KGOSI P. SEELETSO these roads as we wait for them (TONOTA): asked the Minister to be tarmacked? There is no of Local Government if there are road completely Mr Chairman, it any plans to tarmac roads within is badly damaged. the villages of Mmadinare, Sefophe, Shashe-Mooke/Borotsi H O N O U R A B L E and Mathangwane. MOKALAKE: Kgosi, I concur with you, that is my job. I am with MINISTER OF LOCAL you 100 per cent. As I have some GOVERNMENT of my officers with me, from here ( H O N O U R A B L E we will consult the Francistown MOKALAKE): Thank you City Council and check with Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, them their schedule as to when the project for tarmacking they will reach Mmadinare with Mmandunyane/Mathangwane their caterpillars and graders, if road which passes through at all the roads are that bad. We Shashe-Mooke, Borolong and have graders which sometimes Chadibe, including access roads are borrowed by other Districts to Dikgotla, clinics and primary but then when the roads are bad, schools in Shashe-Mooke and we cannot wait for the schedule. Mathangwane has been deferred We have to attend to the roads due to financial constraints. These urgently. I will therefore follow will be reconsidered for funding up on the grader Kgosi and if

114 Wednesday 15th June, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer the roads are still bad and not when we use Government attended to please let me know, I vehicles occasionally, there is no will make sure they are attended problem but then when it comes to. Thank you. to attending funerals, it becomes a bit problematic. Our transport ALLOWING DIKGOSI procedure is for us to use the TO USE GOVERNMENT vehicles when attending funerals VEHICLES WHEN for our colleagues and not any ATTENDING FUNERALS other person. Therefore, it is a bit KGOSI M. S. MALEMA problematic when we are to attend (BOBIRWA REGION): asked the funerals of other Government the Minister of Local Government officials. Thank you. if he will consider allowing PROCEDURE FOR Dikgosi the use of Government GOVERNMENT FLEET vehicles when attending funerals EXCHANGE BETWEEN of high ranking Government DISTRICTS Officials. KGOSI T. MASUNGA MINISTER OF LOCAL (NORTH EAST DISTRICT): GOVERNMENT (HON. asked the Minister of Local MOKALAKE): Thank you Mr Government to state the Chairman. Mr Chairman, Dikgosi procedure to be followed when are allowed to use Government exchanging Government fleet vehicles to attend funerals of high between Districts, Ministries and ranking Government officials. Central Transport Organization There is no reason which hampers (CTO) in order to meet the needs Dikgosi to use the vehicles, unless of the Organization and District there is shortage of vehicles at that in view of the communication particular time but if the Member by Savingram Ref: NEDA N II is at work, officers are always (176). requested to assist in providing transport for Dikgosi to attend MINISTER OF LOCAL funerals. Thank you. GOVERNMENT (HON. MOKALAKE): Thank you MR CHAIRMAN: The problem Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, is that when you respond, you are the procedure to follow when not clear as compared to the time exchanging fleet is that once the we were discussing the Bill concerned district, ministries or KGOSI MALEMA: Thank you. Government Departments have Let me just make a brief comment, agreed to exchange vehicles, they 115 Wednesday 15th June, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer then inform the Central Transport MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable Organisation (CTO) of such an Minister, I believe that you have arrangement for purposes of heard that Kgosi needs the reply smooth transfer of Government to the correspondence they made assets between Ministries. There to your office. Let me also remind is no problem in the exchange of Honourable Members that if there vehicles as long as the concerned are any issues which need to be parties inform the CTO of such addressed by the Minister, please an arrangement. Thank you Mr do feel free to contact the Minister Chairman. and seek any clarification on any matter you might need. I grant KGOSI MASUNGA: Thank you you that permission, that every Mr Chairman. Did the Minister time you see the Minister and receive that correspondence of there is an issue to be addressed, Reference, NEDA N II (176)? It feel free to talk to him. I do so was from the North East District as the Chairman of this House. having been sent by the office You can always make a follow of the District Commissioner up on any matter where there is as a directive from the PMC. no progress. What do you have to say on that one, looking at what we CRITERIA USED FOR have requested? Thank you Mr SELECTING DIKGOTLA Chairman. FOR UPGRADING H O N O U R A B L E KGOSI K. RAMOKWENA MOKALAKE: Thank you Mr (MAUN REGION): asked the Chairman. I have received such a Minister of Local Government correspondence and I have it with whether he is aware that some me right now. It was written by Dikgotla have been upgraded the District Commissioner to the even though they handle few Tribal Secretary and the response cases whilst other Dikgotla I have given is in line with the which have larger population and correspondence. Thank you. handle larger volumes of cases have been left out. KGOSI MASUNGA: Thank you Mr Chairman. Let me request MINISTER OF LOCAL the Government or the Minister GOVERNMENT to provide us with a reply to that ( H O N O U R A B L E correspondence so that we map a MOKALAKE): Mr Chairman, way forward. the response to this question is

116 Wednesday 15th June, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer that, the criterion to upgrade given the Headman of Record Dikgotla is not necessarily rather than giving the Headman limited to the number of cases of Record to a Kgotla which is by an individual Kgotla. Other seven (7) kilometers from the criteria could include the Tribal main Kgotla and has a population leadership hierarchical structure, of 5000 people? What is the potential growth of a settlement, criterion used to upgrade these sensitivity of an area, the need Dikgotla, is it the population, the for community mobilisation distance, staff or the duties to be and so forth. All these carried out in order to assist the notwithstanding, I wish to explain community? that Dikgotla are upgraded on H O N O U R A B L E recommendation by Kgosi under MOKALAKE: Kgosi whose jurisdiction they fall. Ramokwena, you are asking a When these recommendations tough question which I thought I are made, they are subjected have addressed. One of the reasons to other considerations such as Dikgosikgolo consider before availability of budget to finance making any recommendations is the upgrading. I take it that that the number of cases the Kgotla is the response to the question. handles. I will quote from my Thank you. response Mr Chairman, this KGOSI RAMOKWENA paragraph which states that, (MAUN REGION): Thank “The criterion to upgrade you Mr Chairman. Honourable Dikgotla is not necessarily Minister, I have heard your limited to the number of cases response. However, even though by an individual Kgotla. Other it may be the duty of the Kgosi criteria could include the tribal to make the recommendations, leadership hierarchical structure, don’t you receive any reports potential growth of a settlement, showing you the number of cases sensitivity of an area, the need for per Kgotla which may guide you community mobilisation and so in determining whether it still forth”. The main duty for Bogosi needs a Headman of Record or is not to handle cases, cases can not? Do you ever consider that? be handled by the magistrate or The second thing is that, is the even a Police Officer, any of the distance from the main Kgotla two can handle a case but Bogosi considered. Even if a Kgotla has moulds communities. These are 100 people, is it eligible to be some of the things Dikgosi look

117 Wednesday 15th June, 2011 Introduction of Proof of Eligibility for Food Ration Program - Motion into, to see who will lead the cases handled. We do receive community in their regions so those reports Mr Chairman, but that there is no confusion. Those the recommendation comes from are the reasons Dikgosi consider Kgosi after they have analysed when they upgrade dikgotla. his community and has made Thank you. observations. On the part of the social welfare, I do not know KGOSI RAMOKWENA: if I should respond to it from Thank you Mr Chairman. I would the social point of view that the like to ask the Minister the last social welfare officers are not question; can you develop the performing or we should request community when there are no the Councillor to step in. I do not resources? Would you nurture a understand the developments we child where there is no food for are talking about but we cannot nourishment? Mr Chairman, the set up a Kgotla where there are community is like a child who no developments or where the is being nurtured. Thank you Mr village does not qualify for a Chairman Kgotla. Thank you. MR CHAIRMAN: Let me KGOSI RAMOKWENA: remind Members that when we Thank you Mr Chairman. I am ask supplementary questions, scared to ask. they should be short and straight to the point. Our Rules state that MR CHAIRMAN: Thank we should not use a question you Kgosi Ramokwena. Please to be a pretext for a debate do consult with the Minister which should take place in this outside the House, you have my House. We should also not leave permission. We have come to the anything behind when we ask end of our question time. supplementary questions so that INTRODUCTION OF they can be responded to at the PROOF OF ELIGIBILITY same time so that we move on FOR FOOD RATION with the business of the House. PROGRAMME H O N O U R A B L E Motion MOKALAKE: Thank you Mr Chairman. Maybe the one KGOSI BOIDITSWE I did not respond to is the one (SEROWE REGION): Thank pertaining to whether we ever you Mr Chairman. I request receive any annual reports on this House to support me in this motion; “Introduction of 118 Wednesday 15th June, 2011 Introduction of Proof of Eligibility for Food Ration Program - Motion proof of eligibility for food before; they were refusing to ration programme”. In the surrender them. Social workers old age pension fund, there is were insulted with remarks a programme we call “I am such as “do they think this eligible”. The Council uses this food is theirs, we know their programme to close gaps as backgrounds...” They were some people would not inform subjected to that kind of verbal the Council when their parents abuse even though all they have passed on, then they would wanted was for things to be done continue claiming their old age accordingly. Some of the papers pension. This happens because were recovered after we were there are some genuine cases called in by the VDC to assist where old people are not fit to because the system could not travel and their children or care recognise these papers, yet they takers claim on their behalf. wanted to claim the food rations. When I look at other aspects This is why I have thought of this like food rations, I think the motion Mr Chairman. At some “I am eligible” programme point, children are transferred should be used here as well. The for example, from Malaka to eligible person should report to Paje but you will find that their the relevant authorities every food ration is still being claimed 3 months to confirm that they in Malaka. In those instances, are still eligible. This could the Council gets overwhelmed avoid mismanagement of goods due to this mismanagement. Mr and funds because some of Chairman, I realised something the assisted people might have at the time when this whole graduated from being destitutes system was computerised. There to being independent. This would be instances where the eligibility programme could system does not bear the names assist a great deal. of the beneficiary but instead they bear the names of those who There was a system which was have been authorised to collect used before the introduction of those food rations or the money the coupons. When the Council on their behalf. These are some introduced the coupon system, of the things which should be others rejected it bitterly. The looked into as this was a new social workers had to struggle to project, and in some years to get the documents that they had come then maybe there would be been using to get food baskets minimal complaints. But at this

119 Thursday 16th June, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer time we need these amendments P R A Y E R S Mr Chairman, and let me not * * * * talk too much, we need this food eligibility programme. I CHAIRMAN’S REMARKS have reasons why we need this MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI food eligibility programme. We PUSO GABORONE): sometimes get reports that people Honourable Members, Ministers are fighting over children just so here present and staff, good they can benefit from this system. morning. Without wasting any This eligibility programme time, we shall start with today’s could assist in monitoring the Order Paper and as it is the eligibility of the assisted persons. norm; we shall first address the I request this House to support questions. this motion so that the Council funds do not go to waste and so QUESTIONS FOR ORAL that there could be a procedure to ANSWER manage these funds. Thank you WATER CRISIS AT Mr Chairman. MAKOPONG AND MR CHAIRMAN: I do not OMAWENENO VILLAGES think I could give anyone the KGOSI TOTO II floor to debate in one minute. (KGALAGADI SOUTH): At this time I request that we asked the Minister of Local adjourn this motion. I think he Government to explain when has stopped at the right time to the water crisis at Makopong give us time to think over this and Omaweneno villages will be motion and debate it tomorrow. addressed. Let us adjourn this House until tomorrow. MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT ADJOURNMENT ( H O N O U R A B L E The House accordingly adjourned MOKALAKE): Thank you at 15.56 p.m. until Thursday 16th Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, June, 2011 at 9.30 a.m. since the completion and

th commissioning of the Makopong Thursday 16 June, 2011 /Draaihoek Water Supply Project THE HOUSE met at 9.30 a.m. in early 2010 during which (THE CHAIRMAN in the two additional boreholes were Chair) connected to the supply system, the water demand for Makopong 120 Thursday 16th June, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer and Draaihoek villages is met. ( H O N O U R A B L E Water shortages are experienced MAKGATO-MALESU): only when there are breakdowns Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr or during the dry season due to Chairman, currently there is illegal livestock watering. no reason why we should have an office in Middlepits. We In respect of Omaweneno village, have 179 consumers who have the water demand is met from connected electricity and in that the two operational boreholes. particular area there are 377 Water shortages are experienced people, including the 179 who when these boreholes have have connected electricity in breakdowns, which Council Middlepits. In May 2011, for does not attend to timely. The example, we have made a profit construction of Omaweneno/ of P29 000, including Value Maralaleng/Kisa inter-connected Added Tax (VAT) and levy. water supply project, which was Therefore, looking at the profit earmarked to address the water made and the amount needed to shortage experienced within this establish an office, the funds do catchment area, has been deferred not permit for an establishment due to budgetary constraints. This of an office in the near future. It will be considered along with is unsustainable to do that and it other equally deserving projects is why the 3,282 consumers are when the country’s financial assisted from Tsabong and we are situation improves. Thank you. all aware that the Government’s ESTABLISHMENT OF initiative is to take resources to BOTSWANA POWER the people. This can only be done CORPORATION OFFICES when the time and the population AT MIDDLEPITS permit. Thank you. KGOSI TOTO II PROVISION OF TRANSPORT (KGALAGADI SOUTH): TO EMPLOYEES OF CHINA asked the Minister of Minerals, NATIONAL EQUIPMENT Energy and Water Resources if COOPERATION AT there are any plans to establish MORUPULE POWER Botswana Power Corporation STATION offices at Middlepits. KGOSI K. BOIDITSWE ACTING MINISTER OF (SEROWE REGION): asked MINERALS, ENERGY the Minister of Minerals, AND WATER RESOURCES Energy and Water Resources

121 Thursday 16th June, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer if he is aware of the difficulties and then but there is no other encountered by the employees of bus to assist when it is down. It the China National Equipment appears that the Project team and Cooperation which is engaged in CNEEC have since held talks the extension of Morupule Power with the taxi and kombi drivers Station, who have to commute 6 to help assist on the matter and km to and from the work place as if at all the negotiations are still there is no public transport such underway, I believe that as the as combis and taxis, if so; will Minister, I should not interfere the Minister consider intervening but rather wait on the agreement with the relevant stakeholders on that will be reached between behalf of the employees for the the two parties. Thank you Mr provision of transport. Chairman. ACTING MINISTER OF KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Thank MINERALS, ENERGY AND you Mr Chairman. When the WATER RESOURCES (MS company was tendering, did they MAKGATO-MALESU): Thank not stipulate that it will provide you Mr Chairman. I am aware transport for its staff as a way of that there is shortage of transport showing its cooperation with the at the Morupule Extension. As community? Is the company not we are all aware, the company paid for transporting the staff to under question, China National the site? Thank you. Electric Equipment Corporation MR CHAIRMAN: Before the (CNEEC), is not obliged to Minister could respond, let me transport its staff. We have teamed appeal to the Members that, when them up with the Morupule B the Minister responds, please be team and made them aware that attentive to the responses given. there is no safety and good health That is my request. if there is no proper transport for staff, this is why the project team HONOURABLE MAKGATO- met and stratergised that staff be MALESU: Thank you Mr transported using trucks from Chairman. Like I have stated the Palapye taxi rank to the site. earlier on, there is no where This has since changed, there they are obliged to transport is a 70 seater bus which was the staff, there is no document secured to cater and address the which binds them to do so Mr situation. Now the challenge is Chairman. They did not sign for that the bus has breakdowns now anything regarding employee

122 Thursday 16th June, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer transportation. However, I am and Security if he will consider grateful that they are holding including major villages and talks on this issue. They did not cities such as Jwaneng and just sit back and do nothing even Selebi Phikwe on daily traffic though they are not compelled to updates provided on Radio and do it. They are communicating Television. with the Project Team to see how ACTING MINISTER FOR best they can assist each other, DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND even the local taxi and buses, SECURITY (HON. BATSHU): because for transportation to Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr the site to be available for staff, Chairman, a similar question was it will be for those who have asked in 2009 by the same Kgosi permits. Thank you in this Honourable House and was KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Thank responded to on the 29th January. you Mr Chairman. I had asked a It is true that traffic updates on question because… radio and television do not cover some major villages and towns MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi such as Jwaneng and Selibe Boiditswe, I am not saying justify Phikwe.Due to time constraints why you asked that question. both at the radio and television, KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Thank only a few minutes slots for traffic you Mr Chairman. Thank you updates in the cities of Gaborone Minister, please address that and Francistown continue to be situation as a matter of urgency accommodated every working as it lowers the productivity rate day in the morning to forewarn of the company. Local taxis and motorists of traffic congestions buses refuse to transport these and obstacles on the road. The people but it is far. The other two cities have been prioritised thing we are looking at is that due to high traffic density. they are working with difficult Traffic in Gaborone is currently people, I will not state who they estimated at around 246,443 and are. Thank you. Francistown 44, 390 vehicles while Selibe Phikwe is estimated INCLUSION OF JWANENG at around 19, 800 and Jwaneng AND SELEBI PHIKWE ON around 6, 000. However, at the DAILY TRAFFIC UPDATES beginning of every public holiday KGOSI K. BOIDITSWE where there is heavy traffic (SEROWE REGION): asked on our roads, Radio Botswana the Minister for Defence, Justice 123 Thursday 16th June, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer provides traffic updates on that we will consider how best most of our highways and we could address the situation. major villages depending on the If we find a way to address the availability of resources. These issue, then that is when we can arrangements will continue to start to consider the A1 road as be monitored and reviewed in well as the Jwaneng road. Like order to determine whether they I have said, according to what should be continued, expanded the Radio Botswana is saying, or discontinued completely. this programme might not be Thank you Mr Chairman. aired anymore. Thank you Mr Chairman. KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Thank you Mr Chairman. Is the traffic KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Thank done only in the mornings and you Mr Chairman. This is not in the evenings, and could a concern, please look into other villages be updated in the that matter, Tlokweng and evening? The other thing is that, Mogoditshane are near the city what does the Minister say with but there is no traffic update on regards to the A1 road which these villages. Thank you. is used by Gaborone residents, HONOURABLE MEMBERS: what does he say in regard Laughter! to the Jwaneng road, which passes through Kanye and other MR CHAIRMAN: In the villages, does the Minister find morning, they at times report it fit for the update to be done in on the Tlokweng -Zeerust road, the mornings only? Thank you Jawara and others, they are Mr Chairman. covered Kgosi. I had thought that you will talk about Palapye- HONOURABLE BATSHU: Serowe. Like I have stated in my response, if we had the time slot in the RELOCATION OF radio and the television or if the MAGISTRATE COURT IN Botswana Police had its own FRANCISTOWN radio station, it could be running KGOSI T. B. NDZONGA 24hours. My wish is for us to do (TUTUME REGION): asked more but the Radio Botswana the Minister for Defence, Justice and Botswana Television have and Security if he will consider many programmes and do not relocating the Magistrate have slots to accommodate traffic Court to another plot separate reports. That is why I highlighted from Government offices at 124 Thursday 16th June, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer

Ntshe House in Francistown as MR CHAIRMAN: I thought criminals brought to this court that the question was talking for cases pose a danger to the about relocating the magistrate public who frequent these offices court to another plot and not for services. who is being handcuffed so I am not going to let the Minister ACTING MINISTER FOR answer that question because it is DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND introducing something new that SECURITY (HON. BATSHU): is not related to this question. Thank you Mr Chairman. Issues of security are matters for the KGOSI NDZONGA: Thank Police and the Prisons Officers you Mr Chairman. I have heard who are in charge of accused the response but this situation persons when they are brought should be looked into to avoid to courts to ensure that prisoners situations like that of Mochudi. brought to court are looked after Thank you Mr Chairman. Thank and do not pose a danger to the you. public. MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you Relocating the court to some Kgosi Ndzonga. other place will not prevent INTERVIEWING POLICE prisoners from posing a danger VOLUNTEERS BEFORE to the public. The proper thing ENGAGING THEM to do is to enhance security in that place because wherever the KGOSI T. B. NDZONGA court is situated, by virtue of (TUTUME REGION): asked its operation, becomes a public the Minister for Defence, place. Mr Chairman, we have Justice and Security to consider no intention to relocate the said interviewing police volunteers court. I thank you Mr Chairman. before engaging them as some of them do not deserve to serve as KGOSI BOIDITSWE: such. Honourable Minister, who qualifies to be handcuffed among ACTING MINISTER FOR the accused persons when going DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND to court. Is there any assessment SECURITY (HON. BATSHU): before a person is brought Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr before court or it is the officer’s Chairman, the police volunteer discretion not to handcuff that programme was started in April person? Thank you. 2011, and is intended to reinforce community participation in the 125 Thursday 16th June, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer maintenance of law and order what Kgosi is saying but we are under the close supervision open for suggestions since these of the village leadership. This people work very hard even programme is a new initiative though there are always some intended to address the rising fear threats from communities who of crime in the country. To this think that they are just spies. Let end, prospective candidates are us cooperate in this initiative and not subjected to rigorous police aim at addressing public safety recruitment procedures but are and security. Thank you. rather identified by the village TRANSPORT SHORTAGE leadership, including Kgosi, AT MPHUTHE VDC and the Police Officers COMMUNITY JUNIOR in the area. However, those SECONDARY SCHOOL with previous criminal records are not employed, and those KGOSI I. GAOONWE who transgress the law during (LETLHAKENG REGION): the course of their engagement asked the Minister of Education are dismissed. As this is a new and Skills Development if she is government initiative aimed aware that Mphuthe Community at addressing public safety Junior Secondary School has been and security, we will therefore without transport since 2007, if welcome suggestions from so, how does the Minister intend Dikgosi and other stakeholders to address this problem. to assist us in the improvement ASSISTANT MINISTER OF of the same. Thank you Mr EDUCATION AND SKILLS Chairman. DEVELOPMENT (HON. KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Thank RAKHUDU): Thank you Mr you Mr Chairman. When will the Chairman. Please pardon me for Minister promote these people so coming late; I got caught up in as to motivate them in their work preparing for this House. as they are doing a good job? Mr Chairman, my Ministry is Thank you Sir. aware that Mphuthe JSS’s vehicle HONOURABLE BATSHU: was boarded in 2008, and due to Thank you Mr Chairman. I have financial constraints, the vehicle stated that we will welcome any has not been replaced. However, suggestions to assist us in the my Ministry has made short term improvement of the programme arrangements by allocating a though I do not understand vehicle to Letlhakeng Education

126 Thursday 16th June, 2011 Introduction of Proof of Eligibility for Food Ration Program - Motion (Resumed Debate)

Office to be shared with Mphuthe a problem with it because I JSS. Thank you Mr Chairman. have observed that with the old age pension they would be told MR CHAIRMAN: I will refer to report that they are still alive to Rule 19 (5) which states that whilst the money they are being when questions have been asked owed accumulates. I do not and responded to and there is one support the motion. The current left behind, then one Member arrangement is doing well. Thank who has been asked to act on you Mr Chairman. behalf of the absent Member can do so. Is there any one acting for MR CHAIRMAN: I do not see Kgosi Machilidza. If there is no any hands to show that members one then the responses will be still want to debate the motion. I presented to our Secretaries to be will give the Minister of Local presented to Kgosi Machilidza Government to respond to Kgosi as written answers. The same Boiditswe’s motion. applies to Kgosi Ramokwena’s MINISTER OF LOCAL question. We have come to the GOVERNMENT (HON. end our question time. MOKALAKE): Thank you Mr INTRODUCTION OF Chairman and Kgosi Boiditswe. PROOF OF ELIGIBILITY The Ministry does not find any FOR FOOD RATION problem with the motion but PROGRAM the procedure might be a bit challenging. It helps us with Motion the old age pension scheme. (Resumed Debate) There were instances where the pensioner had passed on but the MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI people who were registered to get GABORONE): Yesterday when the money on their behalf would we adjourned, we were debating continue to claim that money. Kgosi Boiditswe’s motion. Kgosi That is why we want to see the Boiditswe had completed giving beneficiary in person to prove reasons for the motion and that indeed they are still alive therefore I will open the floor to and that the child will receive the Members to debate the motion. benefits on their behalf.We also KGOSI LEMPADI experience this challenge with (OKAVANGO REGION): children, the proxy or guardian Thank you Mr Chairman. This has to bring the child at some is a sensible motion but I have point to confirm that indeed they

127 Thursday 16th June, 2011 Introduction of Proof of Eligibility for Food Ration Program - Motion (Resumed Debate) are still alive and still living at the recorded address. Elders do not like it when it is checked whether they are still alive, they just want it to be known that they are still alive. However, I think it is a good idea to keep checking on them to see if they are still alive because our children are crooks. Thank you. KGOSI BOIDITSWE (SEROWE REGION): Thank you Mr Chairman. Thank you Honourable Minister, I am glad that you agree that this matter should be looked into. Food rations should be bought with care because at times the food finishes before time and the guardians end up asking business owners to give them food on credit. Their cards would then be taken by the business owners, holding them against the debt. All these make it impossible for the Government’s initiative to fulfill its intended goal. These are some of the things which should be looked into. Thank you Mr Chairman, thank you Minister. MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you Kgosi Boiditswe. The question will now be put, as per the Rules of Procedure. I had assumed that since we have started the House at 09:30 hours and it is still early in the morning and we have experienced an eclipse yesterday, we would be fine this morning. Now you want to cheat me, but I will follow our Rules of Procedure to divide the House as you are not clear. I shall now divide the House. DIVISION OF THE HOUSE

NAME AYES NO ABSTAIN ABSENT 1 Kgosi Boiditswe x 2 Kgosi Esterhuizen x 3 Kgosi Gaborone 4 Kgosi Gaoonwe x 5 Kgosi Garebakwena x 6 Kgosi Kahiko III x 7 Kgosi Kgamane x 8 Kgosi Kgari x 9 Kgosi Lempadi x 10 Kgosi Lotlamoreng II x 11 Kgosi Machilidza x 12 Kgosi Malema x 128 Thursday 16th June, 2011 Review of the Scheme of Service for Customary Court Clerks - Motion

13 Kgosi Malope II x 14 Kgosi Masunga x 15 Kgosi Moeti II x 16 Kgosi Mmualefhe x 17 Kgosi Monnaathebe x 18 Kgosi Montshiwa x 19 Kgosi Moremi x 20 Kgosi Moroka x 21 Kgosi Moseki x 22 Kgosi Ndzonga x 23 Kgosi Ramokwena x 24 Kgosi Ramokone x 25 Kgosi Potsoeng x 26 Kgosi Seboko x 27 Kgosi Seeletso x 28 Kgosi Seemeko x 29 Kgosi Sekwenyane x 30 Kgosi Sinvula x 31 Kgosi Telekelo x 32 Kgosi Tshipe x 33 Kgosi Toto II x 34 Kgosi Xao x MR CHAIRMAN: 14 members support Kgosi Boiditswe’s motion while eight (8) are against the motion. Those who abstained are six (6) while six (5) members are absent. The Chairperson is excluded. Question put and agreed to. REVIEW OF THE SCHEME OF SERVICE FOR CUSTOMARY COURT CLERKS Motion KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II (BAROLONG): Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, please allow me to present to this Honourable House a motion which reads thus, “that this Honourable House requests

129 Thursday 16th June, 2011 Review of the Scheme of Service for Customary Court Clerks - Motion Government to review the required by Kgosi. They have schemes of service for customary been doing all these duties Mr court clerks as it hampers service Chairman. The arrival of the delivery at customary courts”. scheme of service has created Mr Chairman, this is a very short problems for us; it has separated motion and I therefore request the duties that I have cited, for Members to support me. Mr example, the scheme of service Chairman, we have court clerks stipulates that a clerk assistant, even though we are aware that if I may quote Mr Chairman, they differ according to their “core duties; register records and designations. We have clerk maintain both criminal and civil assistants, assistant clerks of cases, records minutes of the court, clerk of court and others. Kgotla meeting, process and issue We are all aware that from way payments.” Those are their core back, customary court clerks had duties, according to the scheme of raised a concern that they should service. Some of the usual duties have their own scheme of service. for the assistant clerks of court Last year on the 14th December, have been left out.Upon receiving a document which was said to this paper Mr Chairman, some be the scheme of service for of these officers abandoned all the customary court clerks was the duties they had been doing, brought, Mr Chairman. We have opting to perform only the duties been working well with these in the scheme of service. Some clerks all along, they have been say, filling Omang forms, issuing serving the nation well without livestock permits, warrants and any qualms. They have been summons for the community is performing all the duties for not part of their duties. Some of customary court clerks. us Honourable Members may not experience this problem, I want to believe that Honourable for example, you may find that Members are aware that the the Kanye Kgotla has clerks duties the clerks perform at various positions. This then include, registering cases, would mean that selecting duties issuing summons and warrants based on position or designation is where there is need, registering possible. However, when we take traditional marriages, issuing an example of Mogobane Kgotla, livestock permits and transport there is only one clerk. We expect permits, filling Omang forms her to perform all the duties, and writing any correspondences however, she may say, the scheme

130 Thursday 16th June, 2011 Review of the Scheme of Service for Customary Court Clerks - Motion of service does not warrant me to service. If at all the consultation write correspondences for Kgosi, was done, it was done with rather I should do only 1, 2, 3. the Tribal Administration That is some of the challenges Headquarters, a department we encounter. The challenge which does not know the duties might not be affecting other areas of the customary court clerks. I currently. However, that does not therefore request that this paper meant those areas will never be be reviewed for it has caused affected. misunderstandings between us and the court clerks. This time Mr Chairman, we have tried around court clerks should be to talk to these officers but to present in this review, maybe we no avail, they want to work could take representatives of all according to what the scheme of cadres, not all of them, to attend service says. They say that they that particular review session have realised they have not been and probably come up with a performing their duties. We have scheme of service which will tried to talk to them Mr Chairman, suit both the employee and the and I believe without doubt that employer. With those few words, even the Director’s office is I request this House to support aware of the matter as they have me on this motion. Thank you received our concerns and they Mr Chairman. have in turn tried to address these officers but have failed. It had KGOSI SEELETSO (TONOTA been better during the just ended REGION): Thank you Mr public service strike because by Chairman and Honourable then we knew that they were Ministers. Mr Chairman, Kgosi on strike. We are aware and Lotlamoreng II has tabled a very understand the importance of the important motion. In Mmadinare scheme of service but I request region, the same problem it be set aside since it creates persists. The scheme of service problems for us. I believe that the has divided the officers, if there scheme of service was drafted is a vacancy due to retirement or without proper consultation with death and a replacement is not the relevant people. Maybe the done immediately, other clerks Directorate of Public Service will not perform duties for that Management (DPSM) has not post, stating that it is not part consulted the relevant officers of their duties in the scheme of when drawing the scheme of service. Mr Chairman, last year

131 Thursday 16th June, 2011 Review of the Scheme of Service for Customary Court Clerks - Motion in December, our clerk of court the word oogklap because it is passed away and the assistant something used for donkeys to clerk at the office is refusing to keep them focusing on where perform the duties which used they should go. With the scheme to be performed by the clerk of of service you have given them, court while we are waiting for a it is like they want to follow it to replacement. She would just say the latter without considering the the scheme of service does not circumstances, more especially outline such as her duty, they in times of deaths or retirements should be performed by the clerk where replacements take time. of court and that Kgosi should see Minister, you will not believe it what to do regarding the duties. when I tell you that we are relying After the passing on of the clerk on the services of an officer of court, the assistant clerk of who is on attachment from the court retired and they continued Limkokwing University. We have to refuse to perform his duties as decided to use him for assisting well. For this two vacant posts, more so that his remunerations there is no one performing the are from the school. Our directors duties they used to perform, this are always telling us that funds is a drawback for the Bogosi are not permitting and there are no institution? Currently we have qualified officers for replacement one junior court clerk who and we will have to wait. Kgosi registers livestock and at the same Lotlamoreng’s issue is true, let this time registers cases. It has come be reviewed so that these officers to a point where I am requested can act on behalf of other officers to assist with the registration of and vacancies should be filled livestock while she is registering promptly. With that Mr Chairman, cases but then who will be taken I support Kgosi Lotlamoreng’s to task if I make mistakes while motion. Thank you. registering these livestock? What MR CHAIRMAN: Thank do we do with these officers who you Kgosi Seeletso. Lets us have been appointed but have remember that we are addressing not been informed that in the the scheme of service. absence of other officers, they are supposed to perform their duties? KGOSI TSHIPE They do not do any duties in the (MAHALAPYE REGION): absence of relevant officers for the Thank you Mr Chairman. Without job, Mr Chairman. Honourable wasting much time, let me just Minister, I do not want to use indicate that I support this motion,

132 Thursday 16th June, 2011 Review of the Scheme of Service for Customary Court Clerks - Motion I will not give reasons which are already said, I support the motion. any better than the ones already Thank you Mr Chairman. stated. Kgosi Lotlamoreng II has KGOSI SEEMEKO highlighted all the problems that (SPECIALLY ELECTED): we encounter in our respective Thank you Mr Chairman. Let areas. Like Kgosi rightly pointed me greet you and the Honourable out, this problem does not only Members in this House. Mr exist in small villages. As soon Chairman, this motion is straight as the scheme of service was out, forward. However, we should be the officers called each other and careful of what we mean by the shared the news. They advised word “review”. We are not saying each other on their rights and their that there should be no scheme duties as stipulated by the scheme of service; we are only saying of service. For us in sub district we should look into how we can headquarters, we received calls use this document in a way that from Dikgosi that the officers were is favourable to both of us. Mr not working, thereby seeking way Chairman, there is a problem; forward on the matter. We ended there is no Member who can say up calling upon the Deputy Tribal that they do not experience this Secretary to call all the concerned problem. When you take my officers and address them. They region for example, where our were told that even though the sub district is a bit far from our scheme of service is out, there station, we experience problems are certain issues that still need since we will be forced to seek to be ironed out therefore they assistance from another station should continue to perform their for some duties to be performed duties as requested of them and and one would wonder how long not only focus on the scheme of we will have to wait to get that service. Kgosi Lotlamoreng II has assistance yet the community noted that officers have different wants the assistance every now characters; some may be willing and then, Mr Chairman. to assist where there is shortage but others will be reluctant. They PROCEEDING SUSPENDED would tell you that the law says FOR TEA this and there will be nothing one MR CHAIRMAN: Good can do because we are ruled by morning once again Honourable the law and if one goes against Members and let me welcome the law they face charges. I do you back from tea. We had not want to repeat what Kgosi has

133 Thursday 16th June, 2011 Review of the Scheme of Service for Customary Court Clerks - Motion suspended the proceedings while KGOSI KAHIKO III Kgosi Seemeko was on the floor (GHANZI WEST REGION): debating Kgosi Lotlamoreng’s Thank you Mr Chairman and the motion. Honourable Ministers present. Even though the mover of the KGOSI SEEMEKO motion has pointed out that (SPECIALLY ELECTED): maybe this problem does not Thank you Mr Chairman. I will exist in Makunda, it is there be short as I conclude my debate. Mr Chairman, it cuts across Other Members have said that it the whole country. I would like depends on the characters of the to touch on three issues in this officers but I beg to differ. I think motion. The mover said that they base their understanding of there was no consultation, there what they should do according to was consultation Mr Chairman, the law; it has nothing to do with all the Secretaries took part in their characters. Mr Chairman, the drafting of the document but there is a challenge, and I do their input was not incorporated not know whether it is brought in the final document. The about by the fact that both the consultation was made and I court clerks and us Dikgosi do read all their proposals but they not understand what the scheme were discarded. The reason of service is. However, I hope why we may hesitate is that the that when the Minister responds clerks had requested for salary Mr Chairman, he will clarify adjustments, they had wanted to the matter as it is a burning be remunerated accordingly and issue. I take it that I am the last they had wanted all the duties person to debate this motion, we they were performing to be discussed this outside and for the included in the scheme of service sake of time I do not think that as they had complained that there is still anyone who will they perform certain duties yet say something different from they are underpaid.Therefore, what we have said Mr Chairman when the scheme of service was but I do not say that we should finalised, these things were used shut anyone out. Thank you Mr to govern the salary scales, if they Chairman. were on B4 they would still be on MR CHAIRMAN: That is a B4 and not move any scale up, smart way to try and close the these are some of the problems debate after you have debated. we encountered and this has stopped the services as the

134 Thursday 16th June, 2011 Review of the Scheme of Service for Customary Court Clerks - Motion scheme of service now stipulates to support Kgosi Lotlamoreng’s the conditions of service and motion which reads thus, “that outlines the duties of every this House requests Government officer. Every person performs to review the scheme of service whatever duties they have been for customary court clerks as assigned to do by the scheme of it hampers service delivery at service. As they had been given customary courts.” We are aware the document they should adhere that the scheme of service governs to it. This is what happens. the officers in terms of duties and it also states that for them to be The other point I will touch on is in office, they should possess the one which addresses position. certain educational qualifications Where there are two officers in and progression procedures. a station, when the senior officer The document outlines the is away, it takes time for one to departmental mission. The be appointed to act for the post, truth is that if the duties have maybe these kind of things could not been aligned properly, with help. Honourable Minister, attend some information having been to these issues, we are already omitted or added in this scheme writing our own correspondences. of service, then we are bound to We are being told, “I will not experience chaos. It will bring write for you, the scheme of misunderstandings between service states that...” Please assist officers as Kgosi has pointed us, more especially on the part out. Others feel that they cannot of livestock registration, more perform certain duties as per so that they can tell us that, “the the written document; this may law permits you Kgosi to register also bring about loss of hope in livestock according to livestock terms of progression for officers. inventory”. The livestock Therefore there should be proper inventory states that both Kgosi consultation with the concerned and the District Commissioner can parties, the people who are hands register livestock. I support Kgosi on when this document is being Lotlamoreng’s motion so that this crafted. If there is no proper scheme of service be reviewed consultation we are bound to and the services be provided. experience these problems where Thank you Mr Chairman officers will state that they do KGOSI GAREBAKWENA not perform certain duties and (MOLEPOLOLE REGION): then the department will have to Thank you Mr Chairman. I stand answer to that as the community

135 Thursday 16th June, 2011 Review of the Scheme of Service for Customary Court Clerks - Motion will be the one suffering. This is true, this problem exists. The scheme of service for Tribal problem has been there even Administration Department was before the scheme of service was so delayed that at some point, introduced. It started after the a motion was tabled before this review of the salaries of Dikgosi. House. However, now that is We had thought that the problem has been done, it has not been was resolved but it appears the drafted properly because it does scheme of service has made not address all the proposed things even more complicated issues. We are saying it was than we thought. not done well because it does In our region, the Ngwaketse not facilitate the performance Tribal Secretary called all the of duties even though it was officers for a meeting in order to supposed to. Its implementation address this situation. They just has created problems. I support kept quiet and did not indicate any this motion that this document concerns because the Director should be reviewed and be given was present in the meeting. to the officers after it has been They were requested to continue thoroughly reviewed otherwise performing their duties. Even things will come to a standstill. though they agreed to continue We saw what happened with the performing the duties that were implementation of the new Public not outlined in the scheme of service Act. Other officers felt service, it appeared like the that they were entitled to certain Tribal Secretary had imposed hours of work, there is nothing we the duties on the officers. I think can do in that case but we have to this may cause a conflict between do things accordingly. We have Tribal Secretary and the officers to look into things properly and as they may view him/her as an make sure that we produce better oppressor. I therefore see this documents though they cannot be call for the review of the scheme a 100 percent good, like in this of service as a good initiative and particular case, service delivery that it should be done diligently should be improved. With those to avoid any misunderstandings. few, thank you Mr Chairman Mr Chairman, I do support this KGOSI TELEKELO motion in the sense that when (MOSHUPA REGION): Thank the director tells the officers you Mr Chairman. Let me start to go and perform some duties off by pointing out that indeed it but those officers say that those

136 Thursday 16th June, 2011 Review of the Scheme of Service for Customary Court Clerks - Motion duties are not theirs, this could want to have any more conflicts. cause misunderstandings. We I believe that these officers are calling for the review of have a legitimate concern. Like the scheme of service before Kgosi has pointed out, at least these misunderstandings start. I go around and consult them. therefore support this motion Mr Review the scheme of service Chairman, with those few words. and incorporate their views into Thank you. the document. You are all aware that some Dikgosi are old while MR CHAIRMAN: Is there any other are not that educated. So, other Member who wants to say if the officers refuse to perform something different from what has some duties; then we will not be already been debated? I take it that able to achieve the mandate and my job is to guide this House that vision of the department. I would we should conclude the motion like to thank Kgosi Lotlamoreng when we see the direction it is for having tabled this motion going, if I am not violating your and I would like to urge the rights; but at the end of the day Minister to look into the court we will be given the opportunity clerks’ concerns. This scheme to agree or not to the motion when of service should be aligned the question is put. with their salaries as there is a KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH huge remuneration gap between EAST DISTRICT): Thank you Dikgosi and these officers. I Mr Chairman. I support Kgosi believe that if the review can Lotlamoreng’s motion. I am one assist in filling the gap that of the people who called a meeting exists between their work. It with the Tribal Secretary together would be a good development with the Court Clerks. Like Kgosi for us to work with people who Kahiko has said, they had made have confidence and are able to a proposal to the Government, develop themselves and not only to go to the Directorate of Public be depressed at all times. Thank Service Management (DPSM). you Mr Chairman. DPSM then produced a document MINISTER OF LOCAL showing their duties which were GOVERNMENT (HON. now reduced. MOKALAKE): Thank you We therefore request the Minister Mr Chairman. Let me take this and the Permanent Secretary opportunity to thank this House to look into matter. We do not for the debate that has taken

137 Thursday 16th June, 2011 Review of the Scheme of Service for Customary Court Clerks - Motion place. Honourable Members, outlines the levels of progression I understand that you want and the entry qualifications. If the scheme of service to be the entry qualification is Junior reviewed. This document was not Certificate for lowest level of crafted by us but by the officers clerks, for a higher position, the themselves. Like Kgosi Masunga entry level could be a Degree. said, proposals were made but When a post is advertised, Degree they were just proposals. Dikgosi holders who show interest and always bring proposals to the are employed, would not be Minister, that we need a certain absorbed at the lowest level. Kgotla to be upgraded, for Part (a) states that “scheme of example, the Minister can either service prescribes qualification, agree or disagree to the proposals. skills and competencies for However, Kgosi cannot say they entry to various positions/grades want to review what the Minister and levels and to indicate the did because he had made a promotion/progression criteria proposal. We have to understand at these levels”. (B) continues why the scheme of service was to state that, “to define in broad crafted. It is crafted looking at the terms key performance areas needs at the time. These officers (duties and responsibilities) were in one basket that is true. at each position”. The various They performed duties which are positions are further highlighted almost similar but the scheme of at page 2. There could be a service outlines their progression clerk assistant at B5-B3 salary and general duties. It does not scale, then the assistant clerk go into the details for the job will follow at B1 salary scale. descriptions; at the end, it states Then we would have the clerk of that, “Any other duties related to court, assistant tribal secretary, the exigencies of the service”. deputy tribal secretary, and These will cover the general tribal secretary going upwards. areas the officer will perform. Therefore, the scheme of service Looking at the objectives of the will stipulate that for one to be at scheme of service, I will quote a particular position, they have Mr Chairman, if you allow me, to possess certain qualifications, “The primary objective of this experiences and so on and so competence based career path on. These days we are in trouble is to provide a clear defined because officers are highly motivation and reward career path unionized, they are informed for Tribal Administration”. It thereby one cannot say that they

138 Thursday 16th June, 2011 Review of the Scheme of Service for Customary Court Clerks - Motion can employ an officer without duties were for a different level any progression prospects. not yours. This would mean that our job description as headmen I concur with Kgosi Kahiko of arbitration should be very when he said that initially they clear. had thought that this will be some promotional thing, where This generation is vocal, they know they can create their own salaries their rights but there are those who and levels, it cannot be like that do not have respect. There are Mr Chairman. Even though they those who are disrespectful, those might have submitted proposals, who will portray their rudeness we have to sit down and look into as they refuse to work. However, those proposals and align them there are those who will politely with relevant job descriptions sit down with their supervising and salaries and rewards which officer and explain why they are in line with the public cannot perform certain duties. service, something which the Even at the Botswana police, a Government offers. It may be Constable can perform duties to correct that they perform certain a certain level and can be given duties. However, we cannot take authority by the Sergeant to move all the duties and those which on. If the sergeant is absent, some may not be necessarily for their authorisations will not be done. level and expect payment for We should come up with ideas them. For example, I think Kgosi on how to address the current Garebakwena will understand me situation, let us find a way which on this one. They had proposed a will assist in the continuation of list of duties that they performed service delivery. We may find in Kweneng as Dikgosi of his that in Kanye, all the 10 levels level. At that time, I was not are filled while in Mogojogojo, it around, but Ms Nasha kept telling is just one person and the senior them that some of the duties they officers are at Kanye. Let us had listed were for a different try and make it possible for the level and not theirs. That is why mandate of the department to be Ms Nasha had recommended that executed. At the end of the day you work only 2 days in a week. the officer at Mogojogojo will Some of you complained that want to be remunerated just like they were being forced to work the deputy tribal secretary as they 5 days in a week, which showed will have performed the duties that you were aware that those that were supposed to be done by

139 Thursday 16th June, 2011 Review of the Scheme of Service for Customary Court Clerks - Motion the deputy tribal secretary. We will something, at times they deny then have a problem in the sense ever being consulted because that those at Kanye will then want they do not like the outcome. to be paid as well because they Batswana should come to a point will compare themselves with where they should acknowledge this particular officer. Then the the fact that they have been misunderstanding will never end. consulted even if they do not like the outcome of the consultations, What we can do right now is to this makes us look bad. This was come up with a system which not about salary increase only; will make it possible for duties their levels are at par with those to be performed and not hamper of other officers. Way back then, service delivery. We sat over one would become a Local Police this issue and we came up with Officer possessing a standard this idea that maybe we have seven certificate but these days, to regionalise some of these the Police Department only posts so that when one is at a shortlists form five holders. particular level, they can do the Things have changed and the authorisations in that particular requirements have gone up. region, just an example. A tribal We have a lot of officers who secretary may oversee two or are at those posts and we do four dikgotla, depending on the not want them to justify their distance they would cover. May progression. Progression has be their core duties on daily basis to be there to give them hope, are not that much but when they they should not see themselves take Molepolole, Thamaga and in one position for 20 years the other village, then we will while other officers progress. find that this will justify their Schemes of service like this one existence; that was just a thought. are designed to demonstrate a Those are the areas which I can clear progression path. I do not concur with Kgosi Lotlamoreng know if I have explained myself on, that maybe we should look at well Mr Chairman. That is our the job descriptions and consult position at Tribal Administration with the officers. Then we can department. I agree that we should come up with a solution. On the review the scheme of service but issue of consultation, I concur not for the same purpose as has with Kgosi Kahiko III that the been suggested here. The scheme officers were consulted; it is of service has been done properly only that when one does not like and it has been crafted in line

140 Thursday 16th June, 2011 Review of the Scheme of Service for Customary Court Clerks - Motion with other schemes of service. I clerks to perform all the duties however, agree with you that we while it was possible before? It should bring forth suggestions to was even better when the scheme make things work in our regions. of service was not there because Thank you. the court clerks knew that they performed all the duties. KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II (BAROLONG): Thank If the scheme of service stipulates you Mr Chairman. Let me take duties for various clerks, then this opportunity to thank the why don’t we have all the clerks Honourable Members on this day in all Dikgotla, we know that of the African child for having when we request that, we will supported me in the motion, be told that there are financial together with the Minister for constraints to create those posts. responding to the motion. Mr On the issue of regionalizing Chairman, I would like to take the posts for clerks, the question this opportunity to request would be how are they going to our Honourable leaders, being run around these villages? Are Ministers, that we should not be we expecting customers to wait seen to be defending ourselves for registering cattle, summons and our Ministries instead of and other services because the addressing the problem at hand. clerk is still assisting other Like we have already stated Mr customers in a different village, Chairman, the Minister might will our parents understand when have responded eloquently we give them that explanation? but we have challenges in our You may find that a customer regions. We have a Setswana has an emergency like a funeral, saying which goes, “molelo o they have to sell a cow quickly, fisa yo o o orang”. We have a only to be told that the person problem in our regions, it does who registers livestock is out not matter how much we try to in Letlhakeng and will only defend the department or we are be back in a certain day. Mr trying to defend ourselves. Mr Chairman, even if proposals are Chairman, the Minister informed said to be just proposals, which us of the objectives of the scheme can either be taken or not, what of service, that it outlines duties is the point in telling people to for every officer. However, the bring proposals while in actual question is, why is the Minister fact they will not be considered saying that it is not possible for at all. Even though the Minister

141 Thursday 16th June, 2011 Review of School Indemnity Letter - Motion states that the scheme of service no more Members to debate the is not a job description, the truth motion. I now see that as the of the matter is that this creates Minister was responding, there a problem for us in our regions, were some Members who wanted maybe this side they do not have to debate but the right to debate the same issue we have because the motion ceases the moment they are in towns. The department the Minister responds. I want us can be defended but we want the to understand that Honourable Government to realise that we Members. I am a mediator in this have a problem and we should be House, that is my duty therefore assisted. The Government should I want to be a mediator who come up with measures to arrest runs the House according to the situation, I thank the Members the Rules of the House. If you who supported this motion, thank want to rise on a point of order you Mr Chairman. or any other point, the procedure is there to be followed. I believe MR CHAIRMAN: Let me that the Minister has responded remind you of Rule 25; ‘manner to the motion tabled by Kgosi of debating motions’. I could see Lotlamoreng and the mover that there were some Members has as well commented on the who wanted to comment as response. We shall now move the Kgosi was on the floor. The question to conclude the motion. procedure is that the mover of the motion should present their Question put and agreed to. motion and give enough reasons REVIEW OF SCHOOL to support that motion and these INDEMNITY LETTER reasons should be able to guide the Members to debate the Motion motion. After the presentation of KGOSI BOIDITSWE the motion, then the debate shall (SEROWE REGION): Thank commence. My duty is to see you Mr Chairman. I would like those who are willing to debate to request this House to support the motion and then it means that me in this motion, to review the if I do not see any more hands, school indemnity letter. This letter it means all the Members who causes a lot of concern but we as had wanted to debate the motion parents have to sign this letter have done so. Then I will give after the child’s admission. It does the Minister the floor to respond not sit well with the parents as it to the motion as there will be stipulates that even if the student

142 Thursday 16th June, 2011 Review of School Indemnity Letter - Motion is involved in an accident within has to know what has happened the school premises, the school to their child even if they are in cannot be held responsible. These the school premises. I have never are the words which make it signed this letter Mr Chairman, appear like we will be abandoning because I fear for my children. If the children when they go to a study was to be conducted with school. The schools have come regards to this form, we could up with this letter, because there find that most parents did not were accidents which occurred sign the letter. Parents felt that within the school premises, at they should just put everything the grounds, on school trips or to God. We do want our children even seminars. Something had to take part in the school trips prompted them to do so. and extracurricular activities but when it comes to signing the letter I request that this letter be drafted it becomes very difficult. Mr differently because it is difficult Chairman, I presented this motion to agree that should anything and I cannot debate it as well, I happen to the child, you will request this House to support me not do anything. Should parents and assist in the review of the sign this letter, it would mean school indemnity letter so that that they cannot even make an it can be favourable to parents enquiry if their child was to have especially in cases of accidents. a fatal accident at school because The parent has the right to know they will be reminded that they what has happened. I will not be have signed the indemnity long in presenting the motion, form. However, I believe, when Mr Chairman. I therefore request something happens to a child, both the Members to support me to parents and teachers should work call for the review of the school together in the investigation, even indemnity letter. Thank you Mr if it is due to the negligence of a Chairman. sports teacher at the grounds or that of a driver that has caused the MR CHAIRMAN: You are right; injury. Mr Chairman, like I have you cannot present the motion, already said, this indemnity form debate it and then conclude it. It does not sit well with us as parents is not procedural. because it stipulates that a parent KGOSI LEMPADI will not make any investigations (OKAVANGO REGION): at the school as long as the child Thank you Mr Chairman. I was in the school premises. Parent support the motion. It has caused

143 Thursday 16th June, 2011 Review of School Indemnity Letter - Motion concern on my side as well Mr KGOSI MONNAATHEBE Chaiman, like Kgosi has said. (THAMAGA REGION): Thank I have never signed this form you Mr Chairman. I also support when my children proceeded to Kgosi Boiditswe’s motion. In the secondary school level. I just past, when people went to work leave it upon the teachers as in the mines, even though they the school is insured, as well as might have signed contracts, when Government vehicles. I cannot the mines collapsed they knew sign a letter which states that I that they will get compensation. have to take full responsibility Now when it comes to the for my children should something schools, parents have to sign off happen to them while they are in their children, something which the school premises, that is hard appears to be cruel to children. It for me. If it means that my child would appear that we do not like will not undertake any trip if I do our children when we sign that not sign, then so be it better, even letter and God may not protect if they are good athletes. At times your children because it appears the school will face a challenge of you do not care about them leaving such a good athlete behind, anyway. Honourable Members, and they resolve that they take when something happens in one them along for competitions. This part of the country, it affects us is problematic, Mr Chairman. I do all and not the people in that area not understand the logic behind only. I request that this letter be signing for full responsibility of reviewed and to give parents the our children should our children assurance they need. We could be involved in an accident. Mr debate this motion all day but Chairman, Government vehicles there is no need to do that, this and even the schools are insured, is a straight forward motion. I so it is appropriate for this letter support the motion. Thank you to be reviewed. If it is a letter Mr Chairman which only permits the child to KGOSI MALEMA (BOBIRWA undertake a school trip, then there REGION): Thank you Mr is no problem but it becomes Chairman. I support the motion problematic when it states that the tabled by Kgosi. It is confusing parent takes full responsibility, for us to sign that when a child I do not get it Mr Chairman. is within the school premises or Let this be reviewed. I therefore undertakes school trips, the parent support this motion. Thank you has to take full responsibility of Mr Chairman.

144 Thursday 16th June, 2011 Review of School Indemnity Letter - Motion whatever happens to him/her. student shall follow lawful I also request that this school instructions from the driver. It indemnity letter be reviewed so goes on to state that the parent that it includes a clause which accepts that the Government states that the Government should has not insured its vehicles and be responsible for whatever that they release the child to happens to the student as the undertake that trip, at their own student will be in the school risk. In conclusion, it says “I as premises and under school care. the parent take full responsibility, This is a very important motion; in cases of death, injury, loss let the letter be reviewed so that or damage to goods due to an we do not just sign things we are accident that has occurred and not certain about. Thank you Mr will not hold the school or the Chairman. Government accountable” ASSISTANT MINISTER OF Mr Chairman, this is a long EDUCATION AND SKILLS and complicated letter. It also DEVELOPMENT (HON. covers other issues like books RAKHUDU): Thank you Mr and others. The schools do not Chairman. Let me also thank want to take responsibility for the mover of the motion for any form of vandalism caused by tabling this motion. I have heard students. However, in this case, the debate and also read the Kgosi Boiditswe’s main concern motion and tried to digest and is on the trips and it is why I cited prepare myself for the response. them. Upon receiving this motion, What Honourable Members are we had looked into it with great concerned about is the fact that attention and we have found it fit the school indemnity letter states for the letter to be reviewed, but that the school will not be held I have picked something as the responsible should anything Members debated this motion. happen to your child while they Mr Chairman, all the members are in the school premises. What who made a contribution, except are these things really? In the for Kgosi Malema said that letter, the parent declares that they they had refused to sign this release their children to partake indemnity letter. Even though in the school trips; that they can Kgosi Boiditswe has noted that travel in Government vehicles he refused to sign the letter; his or school vehicles because other motion is a way of rectifying schools are private owned. The things that we do not agree with.

145 Thursday 16th June, 2011 Review of School Indemnity Letter - Motion Let me appeal to the Honourable indemnity. It appears that the Members that if we do not agree people who made this indemnity with certain aspects of the law did not consider the Education and rules, we shouldn’t just Act. Section 29 CAP: 58:01 of the refuse to comply. You are making Education Act gives the Minister things even more complicated the power to make regulations and our children may follow on which regulate the indemnity but our footsteps and we would not then the Government and Aided be able to reprimand them. Let Secondary Schools Regulations, me congratulate Honourable Part 12, Section 47 (1), addresses Members for bringing forth Transport and Travel of Pupils. this motion so that where there It states that, “before pupils is an anomaly, things can be travel for the purpose of school rectified. Mr Chairman, I for one sports or extra-mural activity by have looked at this letter and it bus or any other form of road is unsatisfactory on my part as transport, the Headmaster shall well. I am not against the idea of be responsible for ensuring that the indemnity letter but I do not such transport is so insured that like the way the letter has been pupils will be safeguarded in written. Let me start off by stating respect of any injuries which may that I have made some notes be caused to them in the course which I will explain in Setswana. of transportation.” This concurs I will not take much time on it with this motion that insurance as the motion itself is not long. against injury is something which It is normal for companies or needs to be ascertained. even the Government to have The last Act I would like to indemnities; even the entire refer to is the Motor Vehicle country has an indemnity. When Accident Fund Act, 62:02, which we do an indemnity, we reduce the talks about liability of the fund, accountability on our part but it sections 21 and 22, “a claimant does not mean that the customers who has suffered loss as a result are left accountable for anything of injury to himself or herself, or that happens. We have to cater as a result of the death or injury of for their security and when we any person in either case caused do that that is what transpires by or arising out of driving of a when an indemnity is made. I motor vehicle, shall, subject to have looked at two Acts which the conditions, limitations and guide both students and parents exclusions imposed by this Act, on issues of security despite the

146 Thursday 16th June, 2011 Establishment of an International Free Market for Livestock - Motion be entitled to claim the benefits or who can manage to pass by prescribed by this Act from the offices please do so. We agree to fund” it starts from A to J and the motion Mr Chairman and we I will give you copies of this shall review this letter. document and my submission KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Thank so that you read for yourselves. you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, when you look at these two Acts, at the Ministry Question put and agreed to. of Education, we concur fully ESTABLISHMENT OF AN with Kgosi Boiditswe’s motion. INTERNATIONAL FREE We have two kinds of indemnity MARKET FOR LIVESTOCK forms, the indemnity form Kgosi Boiditswe referred to and the Motion parental consent form; these are KGOSI KAHIKO III the documents we have to review (GHANZI WEST REGION): and make sure they fit and suit all Thank you Mr Chairman. I would statutes like to request this House to In conclusion, Mr Chairman, I am support me on the motion which in concurrence with the motion reads thus, “that this Honourable generally, and I will ensure that House requests Government the indemnity forms and letters to establish a free market for of schools are in full compliance livestock farmers to enable them with the statutes. This review to sell outside Botswana.” I is, by sheer coincidence to the will put forth my reasons. Even motion currently under the though the Government has review. And I thank this august come up with a plan to export Ntlo ya Dikgosi for bringing beef, this does not stop this this motion to the concern of motion because this plan will not my Ministry. We will try by all cater for all but only those who means to carry out this review in afford that. The programme that I a short period of time; it is not a present, is not costly per say and major issue. It will not take time the other thing is to try and bring since these forms are outdated. I to an end the Botswana Meat request that if there is something Commission (BMC) monopoly which needs to be addressed, because through it we are losing. members are most welcome to When there is no competition in submit these items, either in the Botswana, in terms of livestock form of questions or motions sales then it means that we do not have any profits but when there 147 Thursday 16th June, 2011 Establishment of an International Free Market for Livestock - Motion is competition it would mean wish. Those who are closer to the that farmers will get profits. The border will be at an advantage current livestock sale process because they will not incur more does not involve farmers and it costs in terms of transportation is why we request that we should compared to the current situation be granted an international free where we pay up to P450 per cow market for livestock. for transportation. I am closer to the border, so it would cost me There is no way that we can sell P75 for transportation because it all the livestock that we have in is only 25 kilometers to the other this country. Bulls are always country. bought from countries like Namibia and South Africa, but if Exporting cattle will not affect we try to sell outside Botswana, the economy of this country it becomes a problem. We should negatively because the money be given a chance to adopt the we get from those countries will arrangement that was designed be coming here and it will be for the Baherero when they re- used here to boost the economy. located to Namibia with their For example, in the country that livestock. That has really proven I am nearer to, a heifer may fetch that livestock from Botswana can 4000 to 5000, but in Botswana be sold outside. Livestock from it is 2500. So our Government Ghanzi and Ngami has been should consider this motion so moved to Namibia before and that farmers could benefit too. this arrangement can really help Different organizations continue Batswana. So, I am requesting to provide assistance and services this Honourable House to support to the society but you can never me on this motion. The other hear anything about farmers, no thing is that for a farmer to sell one ever stands up to advocate his/her livestock to Botswana for us farmers. Meat Commission (BMC), they Of late, we have a challenge in have to find cattle buyers who dealing with BMC due to the buy and sell to BMC. This means new regulations from European we do not benefit from our countries. Some farmers will livestock, instead, those that buy never get the chance to sell their from us are the ones who benefit livestock to BMC. How are more. If Government agrees to farmers who use the communal this motion, then any farmer will grazing lands going to sell when be at liberty to sell where they there is no trade back system?

148 Thursday 16th June, 2011 Establishment of an International Free Market for Livestock - Motion If you want to sell to BMC, once went to South Africa to buy you will have to take them to bulls and was shocked to find a feedlot first, but the issue is them selling a heifer at 15000. I at what cost? And how much asked why it was that expensive profit will be left for the farmer? because in our country bulls are These are some of the things the most expensive. I was told that Government should look that a cow is more expensive into because the economy of this because it is a meat factory, it is country relies on cattle. For all going to reproduce. Then I got the Junior Secondary Schools to understand that indeed cattle and the University of Botswana that reproduce are the ones that to be built, cattle were donated. should be expensive because we We should not put others at a can have a chain of more than disadvantaged position. We 200 from one cow whereas an should look into the livestock ox is just meat for one day. If market with a view to develop it. Government could allow us to A long speech does not guarantee sell cattle to other countries, it an approval of my motion, only would be helpful. It would also substantiating reasons given can assist in sustaining the livestock convince Honourable Members market because farmers would to support it. have a choice of selling to BMC or beyond the borders, KGOSI RAMOKWENA depending on the type of cattle (MAUN REGION): Thank they are selling. Currently in you Mr Chairman. I support this BMC, female cows are sold motion tabled by Kgosi Kahiko at a lower price regardless of III. What he is saying is very weight. Heifers are bought at a true because currently we are much better price in neighboring inconvenienced by the fact that countries but that does not mean there is only one market, which that we will sell all our cattle and is BMC. The only challenge that remain with nothing, we will would hinder us from exporting not do that. Farmers would not is the issue of diseases, but if want to sell all their cattle. In the veterinary services could Goo-Tawana, cattle used to cost cross check before cattle are 3 pounds or 1 pound, and that is sold outside, just like it is done P3.00. I bought some there but at BMC, then it would be safe to nowadays, cattle are bought at do so. If there is livestock free 5000 or 8000. The prices have market, then we can sell heifers. I now increased because the more

149 Thursday 16th June, 2011 Establishment of an International Free Market for Livestock - Motion profit we have, the more farmers should be included in free market will be encouraged to take good and do away with the BMC care of their cattle. So with the monopoly because it has been reasons that I have already stated, like that from way back. Like I support this motion because it is Kgosi Ramokwena was saying, possible for us to sell outside the when there is a problem at BMC country. Sometime, during my it affects the farmers as well. youthful days, there was a man For example, in the past it was from Zambia, he wanted to hire reported that BMC was not clean me to sell cattle in Zambia but it and that affected the farmers as was not possible due to diseases. well, even though they have not Nowadays there is traceability contributed to that problem. I fail of livestock, so if they are traced to understand why that has to and meet all the requirements, affect the farmer. the buyer can buy freely. I thank We cannot be told that it is you Mr Chairman. impossible because we have seen KGOSI POTSOENG (NGAMI our Government transporting REGION): Thank you Mr cattle to Namibia when there was Chairman. I support this motion a re-location and the Namibians because it is something that could wanted to go with their assets. help Government. Currently, if They are enjoying the new life cattle cross over to Zimbabwe, now that is what they have instead of the owner selling shared with us. So my request is them there, they are killed and that there should be a free market compensation is only P400. for livestock farmers. We are What then if those cattle were where we are because of cattle. the only ones the owner had and In the olden days we did not have there are no cattle worth P400 mines, we just had cattle. I thank in our country, so that is a great you Mr. Chairman. loss. As farmers, we feel that we KGOSI LEMPADI do not enjoy the free market that (OKAVANGO REGION): is being talked about; instead it Thank you Mr Chairman. I has been designed to suit some support this motion. Honourable certain business people. We are Members, in the 1960’s there of the opinion that cattle should were some white men who came be included in free market trade to buy cattle in Ngamiland and because it is business for other they were from Zimbabwe, people. My request is that we they were transporting them to

150 Thursday 16th June, 2011 Establishment of an International Free Market for Livestock - Motion Zambia. My uncle was one of the be easier as we will be able foremen who were responsible to use our vehicles to cross at for ensuring that the cattle cross Kazungula Bridge. We implore through Kazungula to a location our Government to grant us that where they would be sold. This opportunity to sell through free trade made Ngamiland a better market because we have cattle place. Shops were built because that do not benefit us. They are of this free trade market in the rejected at BMC because of the 1980s.Honourable Members, issue of foot and mouth disease. we have a problem because as Since now that there are people we speak, nine of my cattle have who can buy them, why not grant crossed over to Namibia, and I that opportunity to us? I thank am still planning on what to do. you Mr Chairman. Some people have suggested MR CHAIRMAN: Do you that I kill them so that I can be support this motion? refunded but some farmers in Namibia are interested in buying KGOSI LEMPADI: Yes I do. them. I refused to slaughter them KGOSI TELEKELO because the compensation is too (MOSHUPA REGION): Thank little. I need advice on how I you Mr Chairman. I wanted to can sell them to the Namibians. point out few things as a way of I fail to understand why that showing my stand regarding this is a problem. It is not that I am motion. The way European Union advocating for Ngamiland, but (EU) operates is an indication in that part of the country we are that in the near future they will faced with serious challenges stop buying from us due to their even though on the other hand new policy standards which we we have neighbouring countries might fail to adhere to. I foresee that are willing to buy our cattle. a possibility that in the next ten Right now we have about 45000 years, EU will require cattle to cattle, this is the number that I be transported by air to BMC. So took from 2010 census. I am not to be on the safe side we have to sure about the current number come up with strategies that will this year in 2011; maybe they help to address this situation in have reached 500 000. They are case it arises and not to focus on causing soil erosion because just one area only. they are too many. We could sell these cattle to Namibia, Zambia When I focus on this foot and or Zimbabwe because it would mouth area which I am not much

151 Thursday 16th June, 2011 Establishment of an International Free Market for Livestock - Motion familiar with, rumour has it that days; Kgosi Moeti and Kgosi they do not sell their livestock, Xao. Welcome back. Before they just rear and accumulate more we went for lunch Honourable livestock and then from there they Members, we were still on Kgosi are slaughtered because of the Kahiko III’s motion and I will foot and mouth disease outbreak. see those who wish to comment They are basically running at a by the raised hands. loss. Maybe if this motion can KGOSI MALEMA (BOBIRWA be passed, it will grant them REGION): Thank you Mr the chance to establish another Chairman. Mr Chairman, this issue market, Mr Chairman. The other is difficult but I am impressed by reason why I think this motion the way the mover of the motion is a good one is that it will help has presented it to us. The main in curbing illegal transportation challenge is that, it is a motion that and selling of livestock outside our Government will not be able our country. As it has been to agree to even though we believe highlighted, there are lucrative it is possible. I think this would prices for livestock outside. improve our economy because Therefore, farmers will end up currently livestock market is very selling to those areas illegally. high in South Africa as compared So permit them to sell outside so to our country. In Botswana, if that they can do it openly where you are lucky, you can still get everyone will see because if cattle at a price of P1000-P2000. permission is not granted, they But the other time when I was in will of course sell their livestock South Africa, I was chatting with illegally. Mr Chairman, with those someone and they said the prices few words, I support this motion. for prime start at P6000 and up, I thank you. bigger ones are around P10000 or PROCEEDINGS P8000. This is not the case in our SUSPENDED FOR LUNCH country. MR CHAIRMAN: Good So this is a very good motion afternoon and welcome back to especially to us who are faced our afternoon session. We shall with a challenge of drought and proceed with the motion that foot and mouth disease. If it was was on the floor before we took only drought then we would be a break for lunch. Let me again able to sell, but it is accompanied welcome back those who have by foot and mouth disease which been away for the past three is always persistent. This motion

152 Thursday 16th June, 2011 Establishment of an International Free Market for Livestock - Motion could also help countries like that can happen if we could have South Africa because they are something to boast about. not much into the issue of foot When the mover of the motion and mouth. In seasons where presented his motion, he cited an there is no foot and mouth, then example of the Namibians who prices will also increase. went back to their native country I do not think they will pay much with their livestock through an attention to the fact that we were arranged intensified assistance affected by foot and mouth, they from the Veterinary Department, will be interested in buying cattle the Military and the Police. The at a reasonable price which will veterinary helped in making help in improving the lifestyle of sure that their livestock arrived farmers because selling at least safe and sound. So I believe if ten cattle will bring more profit. we could request for the same In our region at Bobirwa, the best arrangement, there will be no price one can get is P2000. We problem encountered because do not have an attractive market we never had of any with the there and that is worrisome. So I Namibians. We have countries am of the view that Government like Zimbabwe, South Africa, should consider implementing Namibia, Zambia, Angola and this motion and stop serving only Democratic Republic of Congo. the interests of BMC more than If this could be put into trial, it that of farmers because we are could really benefit us a lot. the major stakeholders when it Some people are of the view comes to boosting our economy. that maybe BMC is the one that I thank you Mr Chairman. suggested that farmers should KGOSI BOIDITSWE sell to them only. I get to wonder (SEROWE REGION): Thank whether BMC thinks that our you Mr Chairman. It might cattle belong to them because appear like we are echoing the they are always making demands same thing, but I will not hinder as if they belong to them only. So anyone from commenting after these are some of the factors that me. I support this motion. The have prompted me to support fact that we are a landlocked this motion. This will also boost country should benefit us; not our country’s economy because the other way round. It should after selling, farmers will pay benefit us in such a way that something to Government in the other countries will envy us and form of tax.

153 Thursday 16th June, 2011 Establishment of an International Free Market for Livestock - Motion The issue of diseases should not to be consultations and we shall be used as a scapegoat because give her the chance to do so. I we are very much aware of these thank you Mr Chairman. diseases and we have qualified KGOSI TOTO II personnel in our country who (KGALAGADI SOUTH can run some tests and issue out REGION): Thank you Mr certificates of fitness. The other Chairman. I would like to challenge could be that of minor briefly say that I support Kgosi ailments caused by transportation Kahiko’s motion. Mr Chairman, and I do not think that could be Honourable Members have said used as an excuse. it all and what I can only say is Mr Chairman, besides assisting that we all support this motion. farmers, this motion could also It is our intention to divert be an encouragement to our farming into business and having children to engage in farming a business implies gaining because the current situation profit and operating at a higher is really discouraging. I once standard. We have realised that stayed in Swaziland; there is Batswana are more into farming; profit in livestock selling and some are into ploughing while they do need these cattle because others are into livestock rearing they do not have a lot of them. with the aim of establishing a An arrangement could be made market and gaining better profit. in terms of how to go about it. The other reason that we could use to beef up this motion is that Furthermore, this will assist in our prices locally are too low the formation of strong regional while our fellow counterparts in farmers’ committees so as to the neighbouring countries make have proper channels of selling more profit because their prices in a way benefiting the country. are much better. The market is This idea should be tried. There low in Botswana. is nothing wrong with trying. This issue dates from way When Botswana Meat back and it has been raised by Commission (BMC) is closed, different individuals, but we we depend on our local butcheries must now work together so that and feedlots, but local butcheries Government can consider this. cannot buy all the livestock in Even if it were to be considered Botswana and again they buy at after sometime, it would be okay a lower price. So for the duration because I know there still needs of the closure at BMC even when

154 Thursday 16th June, 2011 Establishment of an International Free Market for Livestock - Motion not closed, Batswana should be KGOSI SEELETSO (TONOTA permitted to sell outside and I REGION): Thank you Mr think that is something that can Chairman. I am going to be very be profitable. brief Mr Chairman. I support Kgosi Kahiko’s motion. Earlier This issue really dates from way on, one Member mentioned that back and if we can refer back to some of us here rely solely on questions that have been asked in farming and that is true. When this House, you will notice that we are due to enjoy the fruits of I once asked a question relating our labour, we get an outbreak to this issue, even though it was of foot and mouth. Zone 6 and specifically on small stock, but it 7, the Matsiloje and Mmadinare/ should include all of them. We Bobirwa area, were declared a understand that countries like green zone by the Honourable Zambia are short of goats and Minister in December last according to information sources year. The only thing that we they are ready to buy from were waiting for was to consult Botswana. I do believe that if European Union (EU) so that the farmers can have well established beef could be exported. But again and organised associations, it will these zones have an outbreak. If be possible for them to export we had livestock market outside live animals overseas. So we are our country besides EU, we could appealing to our Government that have had the chance to sell to Batswana should be allowed to countries like South Africa before establish markets outside BMC another foot and mouth outbreak. so as to make a living out of their At least farmers would have hard work. With those words, I sold something to neighbouring stand to support this motion. I countries and made profit before thank you Mr Chairman. this predicament. MR CHAIRMAN: I think we When you look at the negotiation have really said a lot about this issue with EU closely, it is motion and we should be careful really painful because the foot not to repeat what others have and mouth outbreak keeps said. I have explained earlier on on recurring in Zone 7. Mr that the most important thing is Chairman, we support this if we share the same sentiments, motion. We want to be given a then it is fine, so let us comment go ahead and establish livestock with a mission of moving market in neighbouring countries forward.

155 Thursday 16th June, 2011 Establishment of an International Free Market for Livestock - Motion to sell live animals. We have been the nation they represent. Our buying bulls and heifers in South country is blessed to have such Africa, and I fail to understand leadership. The most crucial why the same cannot be done factor is that it is not wise to here because a very simple make laws with an irrational and arrangement could be made. unstable mind because then the We really support this motion. I outcome will not be appropriate. thank you Mr Chairman. It is indeed true that Botswana Meat Commission (BMC) does ACTING MINISTER OF not buy all our cattle as we AGRICULTURE (HON. wish. Elderly people have an BATSHU): Thank you Mr expression to the effect that a Chairman and Honourable proper route should be followed Members. On behalf of our to reach desired destination. Government, my fellow Maybe I should guide us on the colleagues, God gave us only route we should follow basing one country, Botswana. We have on what we have as a country. to take care of it by developing As some amendments are made, it. Our country has opted to we should be aware of where we be a law abiding one, that is to are from. Currently, we have a say we are guided by the laws Botswana Meat Commission Act of this country. These laws are and this act prohibits exportation made and amended when need of live cattle from Botswana. arises because it is only us who BMC is the only entity mandated can bring developments that to do so. Let us bear in mind that we find fit for our country. We we are a country that is governed have various Ministries in our by laws that we make and we can country and this issue is for the amend them with good reason. Ministry of Agriculture. It is the ministry that is responsible Furthermore, this act allows only for promoting farming. Just like the Minister of Agriculture to other countries, our country needs grant permission for live cattle visionary leadership and today I to be sold outside Botswana on am honoured to be in the midst special occasions. Cattle have of Honourable Members who been taken to other countries are coming up with visionary in the form of lobola through propositions. I strongly believe the Minister’s permission and that they are not just focused on even as meat for bereavement their own interests but that of purposes. On other instances,

156 Thursday 16th June, 2011 Establishment of an International Free Market for Livestock - Motion when people relocate to other aim was to slaughter our own countries, the Government cattle locally so as to produce or Minister can grant them goods that we have today permission to cross with their like corned beef, and create livestock. When Honourable employment for Batswana. The Members were debating this market grew with BMC over the issue, they cited an example of years, and we made a lot of profit the Baherero and baMbanderu for our Consolidated Fund. This who relocated to Namibia with is due to the fact that we have their livestock. This was allowed our own abattoir where we are because the Minister was given able to sell our cattle. It has the powers to grant them that created a lot of employment for permission. This was something Batswana who are also able to that Batswana encouraged assist other fellow countrymen. because the Namibians sought That only on its own has caused asylum in our country when there the Gross Domestic Product was instability in theirs. (GDP) to expand. Now the issue that has been raised by It is indeed true that before the Honourable Members is not new existence of BMC, live cattle because even Batswana have were sold outside Botswana to raised concerns about it. other countries because there was no market here in our country. In 2006, farmers complained about the low prices they get It was not an easy undertaking from BMC as compared to because people were hired to other countries and in response trek the cattle to those countries to that, Export Parity Pricing and they walked for many days. (EPP) was established. BMC It was a difficult exercise. The was forced to make a research on costs incurred were very high other countries’ prices as a way and it did not benefit our country of responding to the complaints in any way. The by-products raised. As a result, the prices at created employment outside BMC were increased from the Botswana where those animals initial prices which were there were slaughtered. This situation before 2006. BMC is ours as prompted us to have what we Batswana. We established it to call an export abattoir called enhance our economic growth Cold Storage Company, which which we managed to build later became Botswana Meat without cheating each other. Commission (BMC). The main

157 Thursday 16th June, 2011 Establishment of an International Free Market for Livestock - Motion Lastly, I would like to point out The mandate of the Ministry that it is unlawful to sell livestock of Agriculture is to promote outside our country and as I have Agriculture. The Government already stated, this is under the reckons that it will be a drawback BMC Act. I have said that we are to permit livestock to be sold a country that is governed by the outside the country because laws which we make, taking into that will affect employment and consideration some significant some people might lose their factors. We are also responsible jobs. Instead, this will create for amending them in a way that employment opportunities for will benefit us. other countries and in future, our farms will be turned into The BMC Act is still under pasture lands that will feed cattle review because in the last which will be sold outside to February/April Parliament other countries. Other countries sitting, there was a Bill about it will get to enjoy the fruits of our which was deferred for further labour while on the other hand we consultation. So it is still under are killing our economy. That is consideration so that it can be why the Ministry of Agriculture amended and there is no how this is against the idea that livestock issue can be ignored or shelved. be sold outside our country Even when the Legislators because we will be digging our debated this issue, they were not own graves. only focused on their interests, but rather the interests of the I do not wish to comment on each people they serve. What has been and every Member’s remarks agreed on is that beef export because I have already done that should not be monopolised by by summarising. Kgosi Lempadi BMC, people should be allowed has stated that in Ngamiland to sell meat from their cattle; they are overstocked and that is meat, not livestock. It appears something that our Government like a decision on whether the is very much aware of. That is a majority support this idea has not challenge which is also there in been reached yet. Consultations other zones and this is caused by are still ongoing. Maybe while breakouts of various diseases. still at this stage, there could be Government does not wish to a convincing argument that will have a situation like this just as advocate for livestock to be sold we all do not wish to die but still outside Botswana. die. That does not mean we should

158 Thursday 16th June, 2011 Establishment of an International Free Market for Livestock - Motion now come up with laws that will that we used to get for hides, not benefit us in future. The other blood and hooves from BMC. point that I would like to touch on So, grant us the permission to is the one that was mentioned by sell them where there will be Kgosi Toto that goats are in high profit because right now there demand in Zambia. Our research is none in this country. Since shows that goats are still low in the Honourable Minister has numbers in our country. That is got some powers and European why Government has come up laws have changed, he could just with programmes like Livestock permit farmers in Ngamiland Management and Infrastructure where there is overstocking of Development (LIMID) which cattle to sell outside for a certain are aimed at promoting rearing of period of time until the numbers small livestock so as to increase have normalised. Honourable their numbers. Mr Chairman that Minister, those are some of the is all I had to say. I thank you. issues that should be looked into. I am against the issue of KGOSI KAHIKO III beef export because it is going (GHANZI WEST REGION): to benefit certain people only, Thank you Mr Chairman. I have that is, those who will kill the heard you Honourable Minister, animals and de-bone the carcass. but the truth of the matter is The farmer will be left with that Government only protects nothing. Honourable Minister, the interests of Botswana Meat if I were to ask the estimated Commission (BMC) and not price of beef in Europe, I know those of Batswana who produce I would not get an answer, but cattle in large numbers but when you look at the amount without any profit. I am going that a farmer gets when selling to say it without mincing words cattle, you will find that there is a because this is a concern that has huge difference of thousands not been raised by a lot of Batswana hundreds. Honourable Minister, and the reason why we have in your response, you have said tabled this motion is because we that you are busy amending the have nowhere to sell our cattle. law, but nevertheless we shall You have correctly pointed out table a motion that will request that the profit that is made in an amendment of BMC Act. BMC is the one that is used to With that, I thank you. make vaccines in other countries. Question put and agreed to. We no longer enjoy the bonus

159 Friday 17th June, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer

ESTABLISHMENT OF P R A Y E R S EQUALITY COURTS * * * * Motion CHAIRMAN’S REMARKS KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI EAST REGION): Good GABORONE): Good morning afternoon Mr Chairman, Honourable Members, Honourable Honourable Members, Ministers and everyone here Honourable Ministers and present in this House. officers present in this House. The Honourable Minister responsible QUESTIONS FOR ORAL for this motion has asked me to ANSWERS defer the motion to tomorrow as FENCING MOLEPOLOLE/ he is not ready with the answer LETLHAKANE ROAD today, so I defer it to tomorrow. I thank you. KGOSI I. GAOONWE (LETLHAKENG REGION): MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi is asked the Minister of Transport asking for the motion to be and Communications if he will deferred to tomorrow as per consider fencing Letlhakeng/ the Honourable Minister’s Molepolole road. request. I believe that there is no one against Kgosi Masunga’s MINISTER OF TRANSPORT request, but if there is, let them AND COMMUNICATIONS indicate. There is no one. On that (HON. RAMSDEN): Mr note, we have come to the end of Chairman, fencing of the today’s business. We shall meet Letlhakeng/Molepolole road tomorrow, being our last day, in was included in the designs the morning at 9.30 a.m. of the reconstruction of the road. However, the project has ADJOURNMENT been shelved due to financial The House accordingly adjourned constraints. Thank you Sir. at 15.06 p.m. until Friday 17th CONSTRUCTION OF A June, 2011 at 9.30 a.m. BRIDGE AND TARMACING Friday 17th June, 2011 OF THE ROAD AT PLATJAN THE HOUSE met at 09.30 a.m. BORDER POST (THE CHAIRMAN in the KGOSI M. S. MALEMA Chair) (BOBIRWA REGION): asked the Minister of Transport and

160 Friday 17th June, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer

Communications when he intends the Minister of Transport and to construct a bridge at Platjan Communications when he will Border post and to tarmac the increase the speed limit on road from Bobonong/Lekkerport Tutume -Maitengwe road from junction to Platjan. 80 km per an hour to 120 km per an hour like in other major roads MINISTER OF TRANSPORT in the country. AND COMMUNICATIONS (HON. RAMSDEN): Mr MINISTER OF TRANSPORT Chairman the construction of AND COMMUNICATIONS Platjan Bridge is part of a joint ( H O N O U R A B L E cooperation between Botswana RAMSDEN): Mr Chairman and South Africa. The Design the speed limit on a road is Report is almost complete but determined by a lot of factors, cannot be approved as it awaits the some being sight distance or finalisation of the Environmental the location of the road, which Impact Assessment study. A draft informs the design speed of the EIA report was sent to South road. Africa in August of 2009 for their In accordance with the Road perusal and comments. Roads Design Manual, the designs Department received comments speed for the B310 Tutume- from South Africa in April 2011 Maitengwe road is 80km per an and it has been forwarded to the hour. Increasing the speed limit EIA consultant to incorporate on the road will greatly increase them into their report. My Ministry the chances of accidents on the is currently awaiting a revised road Sir. Thank you. report from the consultant. KGOSI NDZONGA: Thank Mr Chairman, my Ministry you Mr Chairman. Is the has got no plans in the current Honourable Minister aware that National Development Plan to this road is about 50km or more construct a surfaced road from from Tutume to Maitengwe? Bobonong / Lekkerport junction If the Honourable Minister to Platjan. Thank you Sir. remembers very well, there is a INCREASING THE SPEED road from Mosetse to Thini, and LIMIT ON TUTUME/ then from Thini to Selolwane MAITENGWE ROAD Primary School where there is a bridge. Mr Chairman, this road is KGOSI T. B. NDZONGA in the middle of the village but (TUTUME REGION): asked

161 Friday 17th June, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer it allows road users to drive at and Communications if there are 100km per an hour. So what is any plans to offer subsidies to the rationale there because the taxi and combi owners to revamp one passing through the village and modernize their fleet so as to has got a higher speed limit than improve service delivery within the one outside? I thank you. the industry. HONOURABLE RAMSDEN: MINISTER OF TRANSPORT Mr Chairman, when a road AND COMMUNICATIONS is constructed, there is a road (HON. RAMSDEN): Mr manual that is used. One factor Chairman, the Ministry of that determines the speed limit Transport and Communications of a road is the sight distance, if currently does not have any plans the road has curves; it is easier whatsoever to provide subsidy for for accidents to occur when one taxi and combi owners to revamp is driving at a high speed. This and modernise their fleet. The is what informs us. This is what Ministry, through the Department I said Sir, the speed limit on the of Roads, Transport and Safety, road is determined by various offers subsidies to public factors. I thank you Sir. transport operators in rural areas as a way of encouraging them to KGOSI NDZONGA: I am not continue providing services in happy with the response from areas where passenger levels are the Honourable Minister because not always sustainable. the road that I am talking about is open and even people from The Ministry of Transport and Ipelegeng always debush it. I Communications is developing thank you. a Transport Policy and its recommendations will be HONOURABLE RAMSDEN: implemented as and when the The road has long been designed resources permit to improve our before Ipelegeng was formed transport systems. Thank you Sir. and it has long been de-bushed together with other roads. Thank SHORTAGE OF you. MEDICAL OFFICER AND PHARMACIST AT NKANGE SUBSIDIES OFFERED TO CLINIC TAXI AND COMBI OWNERS KGOSI T. B. NDZONGA KGOSI T MASUNGA (TUTUME REGION): asked (NORTH EAST REGION): the Minister of Health if he asked the Minister of Transport 162 Friday 17th June, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer will consider sending a medical told us that they have been given officer and a pharmacist to instructions not to issue out Nkange Clinic, as nurses at this medications as it is the duty of clinic refuse to prescribe and pharmacists, is that true? issue drugs to patients as they H O N O U R A B L E say they are not pharmacists MATLHABAPHIRI: It is ASSISTANT MINISTER not true Kgosi and the Health OF HEALTH (HON. Department, has an agreement MATLHABAPHIRI): I thank with the nurses’ workers’ unions you Mr Chairman. Due to shortage that we should go to their of health care professionals, employer, Directorate of Public the Ministry of Health is not Service Management (DPSM) considering to send a medical to discuss these issues. There is officer and a pharmacist to Nkange nothing like non- nursing duties. clinic. Tutume District Health We are aware that nurses execute Management Team has only 6 a lot of duties; maybe we could doctors and 3 pharmacy officers look into their remuneration as allocated to the 9 clusters in the opposed to what they are saying. district, making it impossible to KGOSI NDZONGA: Mr have a doctor in each cluster. Chairman, I have been in Furthermore, on average, 45 Gaborone for two weeks now, patients are consulted daily on maybe there has been changes an out- patient basis, which does since I came here but when I not justify having a resident left home, the situation was doctor in Nkange clinic. A doctor still the same, nurses did not from the mother clinic, that is the dispense medication. They Maitengwe clinic, visits Nkange referred patients to Tutume clinic weekly to attend to patients. where there is a pharmacist. So The issue of nurses refusing if the Honourable Minister is to prescribe and issue drugs is saying that they have already sat being attended to. Nevertheless down with them to try to address of late, the 3 nurses in Nkange the issue, then it will be of great clinic are now performing all the help. I thank you. duties expected of them. Thank RATIONALE BEHIND you Sir. ESTABLISHMENT OF KGOSI POTSOENG: Thank LETSHEGO LEGAL you Mr Chairman. The nurses INSURANCE SCHEME

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KGOSI T MASUNGA not in a position to provide the (NORTH EAST REGION): details requested in the question. asked the Minister of Finance I thank you Mr Chairman. and Development Planning to KGOSI MASUNGA: Thank state:- you Mr Chairman. Honourable i) what was the rationale Minister I do understand what behind the establishment of you are saying but the reason why the Letshego Legal Insurance I asked this question is because Scheme; I am concerned about Batswana who have joined Letshego. It ii) how much has the scheme looks like it becomes difficult for generated so far; them when it comes to accessing iii) the number of people the the assistance from the insurance. scheme has represented; and Even in our Customary Courts, iv) at what judicial level they we have realised that documents were represented from Letshego do not carry any MINISTER OF FINANCE weight. If that is what you have AND DEVELOPMENT realised too, what are you doing PLANNING (HON. MR to investigate if Batswana are MATAMBO): I thank you paying more and yet receiving Mr Chairman. Letshego Legal little from the fund? I thank you. Guard Insurance Company is MINISTER OF FINANCE a private entity that offers legal AND DEVELOPMENT insurance within the Botswana PLANNING (HON. insurance industry. The company MATAMBO): I thank you Mr is regulated by the Non Bank Chairman. What I can briefly say Financial Institutions Regulatory is that we have not yet realised Authority to ensure that it what Kgosi is talking about, but operates within the parameters since he has mentioned it and of the insurance industry Act it was not part of the original (46:01). question, I shall undertake it Mr Chairman being a privately with the regulator, the Non-Bank owned company, the rationale Financial Institutions Regulatory for its establishment and its Authority to investigate Letshego. detailed operations are the I thank you. responsibility of its Board of KGOSI MASUNGA: I thank Directors. Consequently, I am you Mr Chairman.

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USE OF PORTION OF THE in its rules, the granting to a PENSION FUND member a loan secured by a first mortgage of immovable KGOSI P. SEELETSO property on which a dwelling (TONOTA REGION): asked house has been or is to be erected the Minister of Finance and for the personal residence of Development Planning if he will a member. This means that a consider allowing a portion of pension fund may give loans the Pension Fund to be used by to members for purchase of a beneficiaries to build houses and house or for construction of such pay building contractors directly a house but with specific terms from the pension fund. and conditions. I thank you Mr MINISTER OF FINANCE Chairman. AND DEVELOPMENT KGOSI SEELETSO: Thank PLANNING (HON. you Mr Chairman. MATAMBO): Thank you Mr Chairman. The primary purpose PRUDENTIAL RULES of pension funds is to provide GOVERNING LIFE retired persons with funds to meet INSURANCE COMPANIES their living expenses. Therefore, KGOSI T. MASUNGA any activity that diverts such (NORTH EAST REGION): funds away from this purpose is asked the Minister of Finance highly discouraged. and Development Planning:- Mr Chairman, upon retirement a i) when will the prudential rules pensioner receives one third of his governing life insurance or her pension benefit as a lump companies come into effect; sum payment. The pensioner and is free to use this payment as he or she sees fit. However, the ii) whether the rules will balance of the pension benefit apply to both new and old cannot be taken as a lump sum. policies. It is only paid to the pensioner MINISTER OF FINANCE monthly. This is a requirement of AND DEVELOPMENT the Pension and Provident Funds PLANNING (HON. Act. MATAMBO): Mr Chairman, Section 18(4) of the Pension and prudential rules governing life Provident Funds Act however insurance companies are a set of allows a pension fund to include standards that are imposed by the

165 Friday 17th June, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer regulator on these institutions. are getting into. I thank you. The purpose of the rules is to TRAINING WORKSHOPS ensure that the life insurance FOR YOUTH VENTURING companies; INTO BUSINESS 1) maintain a sound financial KGOSI TOTO II position and would not cause (KGALAGADI SOUTH): or promote instability in the asked the Minister of Youth, Sport financial system or financial and Culture if he will consider sector, and conducting training workshops 2) conduct their affairs with for the Youth venturing into integrity, prudence and business at least quarterly in a professional skill. year to ensure that Government funds do not go to waste as most In Terms of Section 50 of the of their businesses collapse after Non-bank Financial Institutions a short period of time due to lack Regulatory Authority Act, it of management skills. is the Regulatory Authority that makes the prudential rules ACTING MINISTER and puts them into effect. The OF YOUTH, SPORT prudential rules governing the AND CULTURE (HON. life insurance companies are RAMSDEN): Mr Chairman, scheduled to be presented to Ministry of Youth, Sport and the Board of the Non-bank Culture is already conducting Financial Institutions Regulatory training workshops for youth who Authority for approval by the have ventured into different types end of June 2011, that is, this of businesses. These workshops month. If approved they will be are facilitated by experts in implemented by the regulatory the area of business to ensure authority with effect from August sustainability. To date, all the 428 this year. Upon implementation youth beneficiaries in Tsabong the rules will apply to both old of the Youth Development Fund and new insurance policies. I have benefited from the training thank you Mr Chairman. workshop. Training is to be intensified during the current KGOSI MASUNGA: Thank financial year of course and in you Honourable Minister. I addition regular monitoring believe that this will assist those of the project is to be carried who have joined insurance to out to ensure sustainability. know the kind of contract they

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These workshops are further require assigning any reasons complemented by other for decision taken in any of the programmes, including youth provisions of the Act and no participation in both national such decision shall be subject to and regional expositions, youth appeal or review in any court. rallies and youth exchanges The basis for this provision is that which accord the youth a the consideration of citizenship platform to market their products is a sensitive matter and often and promote business linkages. I has a bearing on security thank you Mr Chairman. Thank issues, consequently making it you. compulsory for the Minister to divulge reasons for his decision KGOSI TOTO II: I thank you would compromise the security Mr Chairman. of a country. REVIEW OF SECTION 22 Mr Chairman, my Ministry does OF CITIZENSHIP ACT not intend to review Section 22 KGOSI T. MASUNGA of the Citizenship Act for the (NORTH EAST REGION): purpose of allowing applications asked the Minister of Labour and who were turned down to re- Home Affairs to state:- apply as there is already a provision for such applicants i) what is the basis of the to re-apply. Therefore, those provision of Section 22 of applicants who believe that their Citizenship Act which does application stands a better chance not compel the Minister of succeeding are encouraged to to disclose reasons for re-apply for citizenship. Their denial of application for applications are then subjected to naturalization; and the normal process of considering ii) if he will consider reviewing applications for citizenship. I the said Section 22 to allow thank you Mr Chairman. applicants who were denied KGOSI MASUNGA: I thank naturalization to re-apply. you Mr Chairman. My area of MINISTER OF LABOUR concern is for those who have AND HOME AFFAIRS (HON. been given the opportunity to re- SIELE): Thank you very much apply, will it not be in the interest Mr Chairman. According to of natural justice to at least have Section 22 of the Citizenship Act an idea of the cause of regret for Cap 0101, the Minister shall not their application. I think those

167 Friday 17th June, 2011 Questions for Oral Answer who have bad elements or do not can be some Members of this have any value are the ones who House due to reasons they have cannot be given the opportunity and even members of the public to re-apply, but those who do can be against that. Some of not can be. Does the Honourable those reasons stated are not easy Minister not see any importance to disclose, that is why we just in outlining some of the reasons say for security reasons. Security because I was once visited by...? does not entail being a threat to the country’s stability only, but MR CHAIRMAN: I wish also for the person who is against you could conclude your the request. supplementary question Kgosi Masunga. Just to cite an example, some of the applicants request for KGOSI MASUNGA: I am Mr citizenship because they are Chairman. The reason why I am married in Botswana and by the asking this question is because time they make a request, their I was once visited by someone partners are the ones that can who expressed a concern over object to the application because this issue. In conclusion, does the of the changed condition of Honourable Minister not see this marriage. Sometimes a partner Section very draconian? Does can write to the committee the Honourable Minister not see objecting to the request due the possibility of modifying it so to unstable marriage. Those that it can be more sensitive to are some of the reasons that accommodate both? I thank you. cannot be disclosed to the other HONOURABLE SIELE: concerned partner. That is why Mr Chairman, some of the the law has made a provision for underlying factors are difficult to the Minister not to disclose such explain to an individual because reasons. I thank you. sometimes it is about how they MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you are. According to the law, after Honourable Minister. applying, the names of those who have been considered are notified KGOSI MASUNGA: Thank on newspapers so that if there is you Honourable Minister. You anyone against the consideration, have explained it in detail and they can do so provided there are now I understand. I thank you. valid reasons for that. Sometimes MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you those who are against the request Kgosi Masunga. Let me go back

168 Friday 17th June, 2011 Witnessing of Marriages by Parents - Motion and use Chapter 19, Rules of before this Honourable House Procedure, states that, “when because I am of the opinion that all the questions for which oral is should be considered. answers are required have been The mandate of this House is to called, the Chairperson shall ensure proper administration of call again any question which culture, but the current situation has not been asked by a reason is distressing and embarrassing, of the absence of the Member our children get married all by in whose name it stands, in themselves without the consent which case a Member can ask a of parents. Marriage is supposed question for another Member if to be negotiated at home by deputed to do so.” Now we have parents because they have to be skipped question 4 because Kgosi involved from the onset. This Machilidza was not present. So if is for the purpose of knowing there is anyone who is representing about the son-in law or daughter- Kgosi Machilidza, can they in law because if parents do not indicate? If there is no one, I know them and have never been believe the Honourable Minister involved in the negotiations will leave the answer with the for the marriage, then it is not officers so that it can be passed on a pleasant situation. I want this to Kgosi Machilidza. The other Honourable House to assist me in question is on number seven and I coming up with better strategies think since Kgosi Machilidza did that could be engaged in order to not ask anyone to ask on behalf, discipline and bring our children the responsible Ministry of to conform to culture. If lobola Health shall do likewise and give is paid, then they are free to get the answer to the officers. With married, rather than just to hear that we have come to the end of about their marriage. That is today’s business on questions. not good at all. I thank you Mr WITNESSING OF Chairman. MARRIAGES BY PARENTS KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II Motion (BAROLONG): Thank you Mr Chairman. I do not wish to stand KGOSI MALEMA against Kgosi Malema’s motion (BOBIRWA REGION): Thank because I know that culturally, you Mr Chairman. Through children will always be children your permission Mr Chairman, I before their parents, regardless of would like to present this motion age. I am also still a child before

169 Friday 17th June, 2011 Witnessing of Marriages by Parents - Motion my parents but the law says I Mr Chairman, Honourable am old enough to make my own Members and Ministers, good decisions. morning. We hear Kgosi Malema’s motion but marriage I am just wondering what our has got different processes. stand is concerning orphans There is civil marriage which is because the motion is advocating governed by Marriage Act, and for witnessing of marriages then there is Traditional one which by parents only. What are we entails the lobola negotiations by saying about foreigners who parents and its payment. Again have acquired citizenship in our there is religious marriage which country but left their parents back falls under Civil marriage. So I home, then they meet another am of the view that this motion foreigner here and decide to get was not well presented because married? I believe when a law is if it could have instead talked made it is to cater for everyone, about revision of Marriage Act, it so what are we saying about those would have been better that way. instances? What about parents Traditional marriage is straight who disapprove of marriage of forward, in my view no child their children it may be because of mine can marry without my they have something against the consent. There should be proper parents of the bride to be? Are negotiations. It is not easy to we saying that even people who support this motion because we are in these situations should not are talking about Marriage Act be allowed to get married just that already exists. It is this very because parents are against the same type of marriage that allows marriage? partners to look for witnesses of What is our stand concerning their own choice to witness for people who do not pay lobola in them. I thank you Mr Chairman. their cultures? We cannot make a KGOSI MOETI II law that will apply to Batswana (SPECIALLY ELECTED): just because there is lobola in Thank you Mr Chairman and our culture. I wanted to support Honourable Ministers present. Kgosi Malema’s motion but due Maybe I do not understand the to the stated reasons above, I do motion too, but from the little not. I thank you. that I managed to grasp, I would KGOSI KAHIKO III suggest that Kgosi should go (GHANZI WEST REGION): and research further because

170 Friday 17th June, 2011 Witnessing of Marriages by Parents - Motion somehow it will violate the Laws. Just to be brief, I do not rights of children who want support this motion because the to get married but can only do type of marriage does not really that through the permission of matter. The marriage may not parents. Without the permission work, whether it is Traditional or of parents, there is a possibility Religious one. Maybe someone of no marriage. Children have who gets married under that type got the right to choose who they of marriage will be lucky and want as their witnesses due to their marriage works out even various reasons. For instance, a when their parents never knew child might be having problems about the marriage. It does not with parents and that on its own mean that the type of marriage gives the parents an upper hand a couple has chosen guarantees to sabotage their children’s the strength and sustainability marriage. of their marriage. Any type of marriage is liable to a break up. Besides that, you will find that The law is fine as it is currently the child who wants to marry and I do not wish to echo the same does not have biological parents words expressed by Honourable but rather guardians. And in a Members like impinging on situation like this, there might others’ rights because those are be some conflicts. We all know some of the issues that are under that as Batswana, there are some Common Law and Customary existing conflicts that have been Law. Kgosi has indicated that there dating from way back. there should be a thorough Those are the reasons that can research on this motion, but I hinder a person to assist a child am not sure on what. I think he to get married. In short, this is aware of our lack of support motion is impinging on the rights on the motion. I thank you Mr of some people, so it should be Chairman. researched further. I thank you. KGOSI BOIDITSWE KGOSI RAMOKWENA (SEROWE REGION): I (MAUN REGION): Thank thank you Mr Chairman. I do you Mr Chairman. Let me take understand the distress that this time to greet Honourable Kgosi Malema is talking about Members and Ministers. The and the reasons behind the motion has got a lot of obstacles tabling of the motion. In the past, from all the sides of the law children did not look for their being Common and Customary

171 Friday 17th June, 2011 Witnessing of Marriages by Parents - Motion own partners; instead parents MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi did that on their behalf. When Boiditswe, you have been asked parents did that, they took into to use more sensitive words than consideration the type of family ‘fat woman’ and ‘heap’. their child is marrying into. That KGOSI BOIDITSWE: I system worked indeed and it is withdraw those words Mr evidenced by the strengths of our Chairman, t is just that sometimes parents’ marriages. There were when you get carried away; it is less divorce cases as compared difficult to control yourself. to the current situation. There are marriages that were organised MR CHAIRMAN: Proceed by parents and have worked, Kgosi Boiditswe. most of the couples were related KGOSI BOIDITSWE: somehow. That is why I am Something has to be done Mr of the view that we should not Chairman, even if we can say we debate as if we do not understand do not support this motion. We the concern raised by Kgosi should take into consideration that Malema. Under civil marriage, some of these marriages derail there is special marriage our cultural ways because under whereby children marry without civil marriage there is no lobola. the consent of parents. They even On the contrary, in Setswana have the audacity to bring a fat there are proper procedures that woman to their parents’ home ought to be followed in marriage. and to make it worse, that woman Even if they sign at the District will just be heaped up there, not Commissioner, they still have to even doing anything for the in- follow the traditional procedure, laws to show some respect. So which means it can either these are the issues that are of be concluded at the District great concern to us. Commissioner or at church. At KGOSI MASUNGA: On a times parents find out about their point of order Mr Chairman, I children’s marriage when it is would request Kgosi Boiditswe already done. However, when to use a more better word than problems arise, that is when they fat woman. get involved. Parents will be called when the marriage is sour KGOSI BOIDITSWE: I am not and at times they will be told saying they amount to nothing. when there are passion killings. In any case, point taken. So Honourable Members, let us

172 Friday 17th June, 2011 Witnessing of Marriages by Parents - Motion not reject this motion as if it is floor and you keep on raising bad. Let us rather propose better your hands, I am not sure whether ways of tabling it so that it can be it is for the purpose of debating more appealing. or to rise to a point of order or clarification. So let that be clear. Mr Chairman, even those who have failed to support it due to KGOSI GAREBAKWENA some reasons, I am not much (MOLEPOLOLE REGION): against them. I suggest that Thank you Mr Chairman. I do it should not be discarded; it not support Kgosi Malema’s should rather be restructured so motion because he did not state that it can assist in doing things what the existing laws are doing culturally, we are too modern. I to address the problem. He did thank you. not go in to further details about the causes of his concerns. There MR CHAIRMAN: When Kgosi is an existing system in which if Boiditswe was on the floor, a person wishes to marry, his or Honourable Members kept on her parents come before Kgosi or raising their hands. I want to Kgosana to witness the marriage read Rule 29 which reads thus, and confirm that their child is “Subject to the provisions of not currently married. This gives rule 31 a Member shall not parents the chance to participate interrupt another Member except in the marriage and this is the (a) by rising to a point of order. practice in Molepolole. A lot When the Member speaking of people have approached me shall resume his or her seat, the concerning this issue and from Member interrupting shall direct there, they are given a letter attention to the point which he or from Kgosi and they can go to she wishes to bring to notice and the District Commissioner. In submit it to the Chairperson for this way, parents will have full decision or (b) to elucidate some participation in their children’s matter raised by that Member in marriage. As Kgosi Lotlamoreng the cause of his or her speech. If was saying concerning the issue the Member speaking is willing of foreigners getting married to give way and resumes his or to one another, they have their her seat, the Member wishing provisions in the law. This to interrupt is called by the existing system is more suitable Chairperson”. Let us try to note for the locals and if it was the difference between (a) and practiced across the country, (b). Now if a Member is on the

173 Friday 17th June, 2011 Witnessing of Marriages by Parents - Motion Dikgosi would not be talking fully, what holds us back from about it as if it is non- existent. highlighting that at the beginning And if it is not, it is important of the debate instead of doing that a letter of approval be issued so when other Members have out from both parents. I thank already made their contribution? you Mr Chairman. If we do that then it means, we have to amend the motion and KGOSI SEEMEKO start afresh with the debate. We (SPECIALLY ELECTED): are not against your proposed Thank you Mr Chairman. I have amendment Kgosi, but note what been looking at Kgosi Malema’s I have just said. Kgosi Malema, motion and through your I am not saying you should permission Mr Chairman, under respond to your motion. Section 26 Sub Section 2 (d) of the Powers and Privileges of this KGOSI MALEMA: Thank House, allow me to propose that you Mr Chairman. I appreciate we replace the word ‘parents’ all the comments that have been with ‘family members’, so maybe put forward. I do not wish to we will understand it better that take long and waste our time; way because according to my Honourable Members have understanding, using the word already said their comments even parents means it will be confined though it’s not what I wanted. So to a father and mother only. So Mr Chairman, I wish to withdraw if we use family members, it will this motion because I understand try to address the concerns of the their concerns. I thank you Mr Honourable Members. Thank Chairman. you, Sir. MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI Malema, I was not implying GABORONE): I understand that you should withdraw your Kgosi Seemeko’s proposed motion, I was just commenting amendment to this motion; he on Kgosi Seemeko’s amendment. proposed that the word ‘parents’ Let me point out that amendment should be replaced with ‘family of a motion is permissible members’. But I want to ask in this House; I just wanted a question before I get to the us to understand the point amendment. If we peruse through of amending a motion in the the Notice Paper and realise that middle of the debate. I will read a motion has some elements that the section that was quoted by will hinder us from debating it Kgosi Seemeko which will give

174 Friday 17th June, 2011 Registration of Marriages - Motion us the green light to debate if MR CHAIRMAN: Then we agree to the amendment. We it means we should refer to shall then continue as you wish. Section 27 which talks about, It states that, “Any Member “Withdrawal of motions and who has risen to speak on a amendments”. “A motion or an question raised by a motion may amendment may be withdrawn at propose an amendment to that the request of the mover by leave motion”. So, Kgosi Seemeko of the Ntlo Ya Dikgosi before the was quoting 26(d) which states question is fully put thereon if that, “to leave out one or more there is no dissenting voice”. So words of the motion and insert Kgosi Malema is requesting that one or more words instead.” his motion be withdrawn. Does The third section states that, this Honourable House agree to “as soon as an amendment has Kgosi Malema’s request? been moved, the Secretary shall Question put and agreed to. put the amendment into writing as directed by the mover, and PROCEEDINGS shall hand the text thereof to the APPROXIMATELY Chairperson who shall thereupon SUSPENDED FOR TEA propose the question to the Ntlo MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI Ya Dikgosi. A debate may then PUSO GABORONE): Let take place on the question raised me welcome you back to our by the amendment”. In other business. words Kgosi Seemeko, you should write down what you have REGISTRATION OF proposed and hand it over to us. MARRIAGES Then I ask the House if it agrees Motion to the proposed amendment and we shall see how it goes from KGOSI BOIDITSWE there. (SEROWE REGION): Thank you Mr Chairman for granting KGOSI MALEMA: Thank you me this opportunity to table this Mr Chairman. An amendment motion. Mr Chairman, there are can be made, but I think the a lot of concerns that have been timing is wrong because I have raised about marriages especially heard and appreciate the points traditional marriages, which vary raised by Honourable Members. across cultures. My concern is That is why I am saying the that the standard at which these motion should be withdrawn. marriages are conducted is very

175 Friday 17th June, 2011 Registration of Marriages - Motion low. It looks like there is no traditionally because the reason element of holiness in this form why it looks like it is not valued of marriage and they are taken for is because its standard is low. We granted because after conducting could even have the intellects them, the marriage certificates marrying traditionally if the are never submitted at Home record of their marriages will be Affairs. Even at our Customary kept at Home Affairs which can Courts, there is no record kept, it easily be accessed. The reason is just a valueless marriage that why I supported Kgosi Malema’s is not even recorded at Home motion is because my motion is Affairs. almost similar to his. I have conducted a research Honourable Members, we should to establish where traditional carefully address these things marriage records are kept and because there is a generation I have found out that no one coming behind us and we should knows where they are kept. The lay a better platform for them couples are just issued with so that in future, they will not marriage certificates without point a finger at us for failing keeping a record of that. And to lay something they could when there are issues which follow as far as traditional need confirmation of such a marriages are concerned. That marriage, there is no record to is why I am requesting this refer to. So Mr Chairman, this Honourable House to support motion advocates for elevation me on this motion so that there of traditional marriage to a can be a record kept at Home higher standard. Certificates Affairs. There are other religious should be submitted to Home marriages that are not submitted Affairs. Just by the mere fact to Home Affairs too and these that it is a traditional marriage, are Batswana, so at the end we is it impossible to record them will have incidents where people in computer system like civil get married too many times just marriages? So I propose that because there is no record. Mr records for traditional marriages Chairman, briefly going back to should be stored in computers so the traditional marriage, I have that it will be easier to retrieve realised something, couples the information when need who marry traditionally are arises. Again it will attract those normally those who have been who wish to get married to do it cohabiting for a long time and

176 Friday 17th June, 2011 Registration of Marriages - Motion have children together. So the in a situation whereby we have man will marry because he wants derailed from the traditional the children to use his surname. practice of conducting marriages This arrangement can be done and introduce new aspects in it. depending on the culture. Some Just to cite an example, as you cultures will do that through already know, Marriage Act payment of cattle and if it has been was amended and it excluded paid, then children can change traditional marriage due to some to their father’s surname. Some reasons. When the Act was couples opt for marriage because amended, it brought some new they have grown old together. I developments like achieving believe that by getting married, equality between men and women they are fulfilling the word of and these were implemented. Mr God. However Mr Chairman, my Chairman, when we deal with concern is that each and every traditional marriages we should tribe follows its culture when not forget our culture and dwell conducting traditional marriages, on the modern ways. There are so I think their marriages should some elements in civil marriage be kept in the record system. Mr that couples were running from Chairman, I am often accused that pushed them to opt for of debating at length but I only traditional marriage. do that when asking questions, I know that the issue of gender when presenting motions I am equality is one of the issues that short, as it is the case now. I am have raised a serious concern. Mr done Mr Chairman. Chairman, not that I am against MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, any change, but we should Kgosi Boiditswe. ensure that as we introduce these changes, they do not replace our KGOSI TSHIPE normal cultural practices because (MAHALAPYE REGION): we want traditional marriage to Thank you Mr Chairman for the be registered. So maybe it should opportunity granted. As usual, I be reassessed just as it is and will be brief too. I support Kgosi be amended in such a way that Boiditswe’s motion which states short comings will be addressed that traditional marriages should in order to have a record as the be valued by keeping records. Mr mover of the motion has proposed. Chairman, I would like to point This is for future purposes so that out that even though things are the upcoming generation maybe like that, let us not find ourselves

177 Friday 17th June, 2011 Registration of Marriages - Motion be able to easily access the recorded in proper registers so information about their parents’ that they can be covered by the date of marriage and the type law to cater for instances where of marriage they used, rather there are cases that are referred than to have certificates without to the High Court. I have heard any record. When it comes to that even the Certificates are divorce, as we are aware, Kgosi not Marriage certificates but are who conducted the marriage also mere papers which means that facilitates the divorce, however, the standard of the marriage is there are no proper procedures low. This marriage should really in place to be followed. Issues be elevated to a higher standard. of estate should be taken into I thank you Mr Chairman. consideration. These are issues KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH that Kgosi Boiditswe was looking EAST): Thank you Mr at, that they should be considered Chairman. I too support Kgosi in such a way that they will be Boiditswe’s motion. As Dikgosi, lawful, not just to conduct them we too should marry traditionally in a haphazard manner. Mr because we are traditional Chairman, I will not be long and leaders, but which woman will with those few words, I support agree to be married traditionally? this motion. I am worried that we have not KGOSI LEMPADI standardised our cultures, they (OKAVANGO REGION): vary a lot. I am wondering how Thank you Mr Chairman. I the Minister is going to address would briefly like to point out this issue, whether he will be that I support the motion because able to accommodate all the it is aimed at improving what different cultural aspects of our is in existence. I am worried tribes. I believe the Honourable that we normally give orders as Minister will clarify that. With presiding officers that couples those few words, I support the should share equally what motion and I will be happy if it they have accumulated while can be implemented. I thank you together when they divorce. Mr Chairman. For instance, if it is livestock, KGOSI SEBOKO (BALETE): they should share equally but Thank you Mr Chairman. Even if one was to protest, we would though we are not against Kgosi find that these procedures are Boiditswe’s motion, I suspect unlawful. These things should be that we might be advocating for

178 Friday 17th June, 2011 Registration of Marriages - Motion something that already exists. traditional marriages at Registrar Maybe our Legal Adviser can of Marriages because some assist by updating us about the Members feel that by so doing implementation of the law that it will uplift the standard of the requires registration of customary marriage. I thank you. and traditional marriages. I am not MR CHAIRMAN: I do not know sure whether the implementation whether the Honourable Minister from our offices is happening. So has the same explanation as that maybe we could be assisted so that of our Parliamentary Counsel, we do not talk about something our legal adviser. that is already in place. I thank you Mr Chairman. MINISTER OF LABOUR AND HOME AFFAIRS MR CHAIRMAN: Since there (HON. SIELE): Thank you has been a question, maybe we Mr Chairman. What the should seek legal advice from our Parliamentary Counsel is saying legal counsel as to the procedure is very correct. However, since to be followed. the motion is still on the floor PARLIAMENTARY for debate as already mentioned COUNSEL (MR THEBE by Kgosi Mosadi, let me clarify. RAMOKHUA): Thank you Mr It was realised after the law Chairman. What I can say is that was made, that it had some Kgosi Boiditswe’s motion is on short comings and it will have track. The law that is there has got to be amended. As Kgosi has some provisions that indicate that said, this is something that we traditional or religious marriage, have realised and we are trying particularly of Customary Law, to amend and then pass it to should be registered within two Parliament for debate and refer months of the wedding. Now if it to this Honourable House the two months period elapses for amendment maybe in the without registration, it is said to next sitting. The thing is, the be unlawful. The difference is issues surrounding this are a bit that the registration is done at confusing, but not implying that the Registrar of Marriage and to traditional marriage is of no value. register it there is not peremptory Traditional marriage does exist because it does not say “shall” and even Marriage Act attests to but rather “may”. So Honourable that and in case of a divorce, there Members can advocate for a are proper Setswana procedures compulsory registration of all to be followed.

179 Friday 17th June, 2011 Registration of Marriages - Motion

MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you House that we have already Honourable Minister. Thank you collected some data and we are Parliamentary Counsel for the consulting some people. We had clarification. consultations with the relevant authorities about Setswana and KGOSI KAHIKO III Religious marriages. We came to (GHANZI WEST REGION): realise that there is no Religious We have heard the clarification. marriage according to the law. We This will be beneficial. A survey only have traditional marriage was conducted in Ghanzi to and some of the religions rely establish the total number of much on Traditional Marriage married people in the region. The Procedures to get married but results showed only the number at the end it is called traditional of civil marriages, they obtained marriage and is kept in the records. the results from the Registrar We are gradually developing the of Marriages but the traditional Marriage Act, even the issue of marriage was left behind. So if property because it is one of the that is how things will be, then issues that are causing a lot of this motion will achieve a lot. problems. So we have to come up HONOURABLE SIELE: with a law which will specifically Thank you Mr Chairman. I want be for married couples’ property. to assure this Honourable House The law will stipulate what that the Ministry shares the same happens with property during concern as this House. There has their marriage life and if they been a problem about records divorce. It should be something of marriages; they are not clear. that should be lawful so that We have recently gathered all the presiding officer will have a the necessary information and baseline without fumbling. submitted it to Attorney General’s When it comes to the issue of Chambers for proper assessment, standardisation, this is not an easy so that traditional marriages one. It will need to be considered can be registered properly and by this Honourable House because have legitimate certificates. we wanted to avoid situations More so that couples nowadays where other cultures are sidelined marry for wrong reasons, they during the process and we adopt calculate what they will gain the practices from few tribes. from the union if they divorce. This House should look into What I can briefly say is that I this issue and consult with their want to assure this Honourable

180 Friday 17th June, 2011 Inclusion of Ear Marks on Brand Certificate- Motion communities. It will have to be INCLUSION OF EAR clear as to what exactly should MARKS ON BRAND be part of lobola, that is how best CERTIFICATE we can merge different cultural Motion practices like buying clothes for the in-laws because cultures vary KGOSI MALEMA across tribes. I thank you Mr (BOBIRWA REGION): Thank Chairman. you Mr Chairman. I request that this Honourable House KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Thank support me on the motion you Mr Chairman. I thank which requests inclusion of ear Honourable Members for marks on brand certificates. Our supporting this motion because history as Batswana is marked for a motion to be successful, by the usage of ear marks and I it will be determined by the believe that everyone here who support of this House not the is a farmer has one. Before the mover of the motion. Therefore introduction of branding, we it is imperative that I thank the all used ear marks for livestock House for the support because identification, but after the this motion is now for the House, introduction of branding, we not the mover. So I thank you Mr forgot all about ear marks. Even Chairman, Honourable Minister up to date, we still continue to and Honourable Members. use them but without proof of Question put and agreed to. ownership. Even if you have a brand, you still need to have an MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you ear mark on your cattle. When Kgosi Boiditswe. This House calves are still young, they are not has a pending assignment. I branded but rather ear marked, remember very well that we once so I strongly believe that we debated on standardisation in should have a written document this House and we left it hanging. which shows ownership of the So it means we still have a ear mark. I am very much aware challenge to look into the issue that most of us share the same of traditional marriage including ear mark but nevertheless, the that of lobola. This House has to ear mark should be included in make known its stand concerning the brand certificate. It should this issue. Since this is a pending not just be an ear mark without issue, I believe the House will any proof of who owns it. look into it.

181 Friday 17th June, 2011 Inclusion of Ear Marks on Brand Certificate- Motion Livestock thieves usually re- Makunda in Kgosi Kahiko’s design ear marks on the livestock region. So I want to understand they steal. So to have an ear mark how Kgosi wants it to be included in the brand certificate included in the brand certificate. will help curb livestock theft. For instance, my brand might Even though sometimes we be KG7; does it mean KG7 and buy cattle which already have the earmark description will be ear marks, there is proof of the written on the certificate? But previous owner. Mr Chairman, on the other hand, another owner I request that this Honourable might use 9Q7, but using the same House support me in this ear mark. So that is the confusion motion because I do not see the that stops me from supporting importance of having an ear this motion because an ear mark mark yet not registered. Farmers does not have any significance should have ownership of their and it is not regulated. Some ear marks, not just to have it farmers just use ear tags. without any registration. That is I have tried to think of what we all I have to say Mr Chairman. I can do with regards to this issue thank you. of ear marks but I am at a loss. KGOSI RAMOKWENA People can alter the existing ear (MAUN REGION): Thank you mark and come up with their Mr Chairman. I do understand own. I do not know if it will be the motive behind this motion, possible for it to be included in but the problem is, ear marks are the brand certificate because shared across various regions, the brand is unique, even if the so I am not certain how it can letters and numbers of the brand best be proved to be that of a are pronounced the same, their particular person. Again, back pattern will differ. So in court, in the days, ear marks were we will be able to differentiate marked according to Dikgotla through the pattern used. There and the whole extended family. are many brands used in various Nowadays, anyone can choose villages which are pronounced to use any ear mark of their the same way but they differ in choice. When I grew up, our ear pattern. So I do not support this mark was unique and unpopular, motion Mr Chairman. Maybe it but nowadays, it has gained could be amended. Initially, I popularity, it is used all over had thought that Kgosi meant the country. It is even used at that there should be an ear mark,

182 Friday 17th June, 2011 Inclusion of Ear Marks on Brand Certificate- Motion but I asked myself if it will be give our staff a lot of work to do good to write long names on the with unnecessary things which brand certificate like tlhako ya will even create more expenses. phala, sekei and lephaga. There Mr Chairman, with those reasons, are a lot of ear marks that include I do not support this motion. The various other ear marks and I brand is just fine alone because do not know if one is going to the farmer will know the ear write them all. I thank you Mr mark he is using. Chairman. KGOSI LEMPADI KGOSI SEEMEKO (OKAVANGO): Thank you Mr (SPECIALLY ELECTED): Chairman. This issue is a bit Thank you Mr Chairman. I do difficult because we understand not support this motion. Besides what a brand is and it means cutting the poor animals’ ears, something that is unique that how are we going to note the ear cannot be shared. So now if we marks in brand certificates? It has are going to include ear marks in to be clear, if the name is tlhako brand certificates, I do not think ya phala or sekei, then there will it will work out. Even though have to be a picture representing Kgosi has confused our ear mark, the mark so that other people it is not called sekei, it is called can have a clear idea of what is sekoni but it is used all over. being referred to. I do not know We have tried to take this issue how this is going to be done. I of sharing the ear mark to court think the best thing here is the but we failed because no one brand because there is no how it can establish the original owner. can be shared and if Kgosi has a There is no how ear marks can concern that he may get cheated be included in brand certificate somehow, then the brand is the because it will just create a answer to all. As for the ear mark, problem. With those reasons, it is shared across the country I do not support this motion. I and I do not know how this will thank you Mr Chairman. help. There are some ear marks KGOSI MONNAATHEBE that look horrible and you cannot (THAMAGA REGION): even understand what they mean. Thank you Mr Chairman. I want I want to believe that some of us to point out that this issue is will ultimately be charged with difficult to understand. If we are cruelty to animals, just because to talk about ear marks in brand of ear marks. We are just going to certificates, it will create a lot of

183 Friday 17th June, 2011 Inclusion of Ear Marks on Brand Certificate- Motion problems for us. I believe that certificates. It is the intention of brand certificates and bolus are the Ministry of Agriculture to sufficient enough to prove the improve the services they offer to rightful owner of the livestock. the public. With the availability So if we are saying brand of services like e-government, certificates should include ear brand certificates should be marks, then we are all going to delivered as soon as possible. have the same ear marks in our If we are to implement this brand certificates and in some motion, it is going to be a cases it is going to be difficult to challenge, for instance, when proof that indeed that livestock people in Maitengwe apply, belongs to the owner. So I think there would have to be proof this will be difficult and I do not that the livestock indeed bears support the motion. I thank you the ear marks as written in the Mr Chairman certificate. This will cause delays ACTING MINISTER OF in terms of service delivery to AGRICULTURE (HON. the nation. As a Government, it BATSHU): I thank you Mr would not be favourable to us to Chairman and the Honourable change the brand certificate that House. This motion was once we have so as to accommodate tabled in this House and it was the inclusion of ear marks as withdrawn due to the reasons Honourable Members advocate. already stated. Yesterday I stated I thank you Mr Chairman. that we make laws in this country KGOSI MALEMA (BOBIRWA that are aimed at improving our REGION): Thank you Mr lives. So through this program, Chairman. Even though this we have regulations for brand House does not deem it necessary, certificate that indicate how it I still think that we should have should be used and as already some kind proof to confirm that mentioned by Honourable indeed that livestockbelongs Members, the ear marks are to the owner. As I have already shared across the country pointed out, we all have ear but brand is not and I think marks, so they should be branding is the best method. registered and not left out even Unless Honourable Members if they are the same. The brand are thinking that we should have certificate will clearly confirm a system whereby ear marks are that indeed you are the owner registered separately from brand and this means no one can claim

184 Friday 17th June, 2011 Requests for Patrols Along the Border - Motion an ear mark that is not theirs no water on our side, instead it because the brand certificate will was on the other side of the river. confirm the ownership. Thank Let me urge the Honourable you Mr Chairman. Minister to keep an eye on the border line of Shashe River. I Question put and negated. do not know how best this issue REQUESTS FOR PATROLS can be addressed because we ALONG THE BORDER have Zimbabweans all over our country especially in our region Motion and they do not have passports. KGOSI MALEMA (BOBIRWA So we have no idea on how we REGION): Thank you Mr can best address this issue. My Chairman. My request is that the request is that those people who people who were patrolling in the have been patrolling along the already specified places along borderline be reinstated. I thank the Botswana and Zimbabwe you Mr Chairman. border line be reinstated. This is KGOSI NDZONGA (TUTUME an open area and livestock theft REGION): Thank you Mr is rampant in that area. When I Chairman. I stand to support left home recently, there were this motion. From way back, some reports on livestock theft in the people that Kgosi Malema is the same area. My request to the talking about have been there and Honourable Minister is that they their responsibility was to patrol should attend to that area. People the borderlines. In the morning who have been patrolling there they would inspect the border should be reinstated. Even though fence and repair where elephants people cannot stop stealing, when have destroyed. They also chased there is patrol, it will be better cattle which were to cross over because it will reduce the crime. to the other country. Ever since In our region, we are unable to those people were removed from keep our livestock because of that place, the situation has gone the theft that occurs in the area from better to worse. As already and they steal huge numbers not mentioned, livestock cross over just one cow. I remember one to Zimbabwe and that is what we particular year when more than were saying yesterday that once one hundred cattle were stolen they cross over, they are killed and crossed over to the other side and that is a loss to us because of of Shashe River. It was during foot and mouth. With those few the rainy season but there was

185 Friday 17th June, 2011 Requests for Patrols Along the Border - Motion words, I support this motion. I them realize that they should have thank you Mr Chairman. not removed the pickets. They are supposed to be patrolling at all the KGOSI BOIDITSWE times. It has proven to be efficient (SEROWE REGION): Thank for us up to now. Unless they tell you Mr Chairman. We had a us what made them to stop the similar situation in our region, patrols. If they just decided to once the veterinary officers stop for no apparent reason, this ceased to patrol, something was a wrong move; those people happened and they were quickly have to be reinstated. So I support reinstated. It was not a wise this motion. I thank you Mr move for them to be removed Chairman. from those posts. So I support this motion especially because KGOSI MONNAATHEBE Bobirwa region is faced with a (THAMAGA REGION): challenge of illegal immigrants. Thank you Mr Chairman. I stand It is a difficult situation because to support this motion because those pickets were useful. People cattle are one of the major who did lawful things benefitted components of Botswana’s because when they got to the economy. I do not think this pickets, they would have to issue is of concern to Kgosi declare goods which needed to be Malema only because the area declared and that would be kept that the perpetrators are using on record. These records could as an entrance into our country assist in monitoring the situation affects not only Babirwa but also and movement of the people. surrounding areas like Serowe Like Kgosi Ndzonga has said, and Mahalapye or any other the pickets used to patrol in the place. They can steal from other mornings. They would check the areas and still use the same entry fence and report to the police if point. We should all be concerned there has been theft. If they were by a situation like this one, and fortunate enough they would catch try and come up with ways of the perpetrators after tracing them. rectifying it. There is no need Those people played an important to debate this issue at length as role. I am not sure as to what it is very clear, we should come caused the Veterinary Department up with ways of remedying the to stop the patrol and because of situation. With those words Mr that, that department will be faced Chairman, I support this motion. with more problems that will make I thank you.

186 Friday 17th June, 2011 Requests for Patrols Along the Border - Motion KGOSI LEMPADI livestock movement. I fail to (OKAVANGO REGION): understand why they had to leave Thank you Mr Chairman. There those posts. If they were present is nothing much that we can here, they could perhaps tell us say except that we support the why they had to leave. I thank motion. All that I can say is that you Mr Chairman. the Veterinary Department is MR CHAIRMAN: I do not know accountable for all the diseases why Kgosi has to suggest the and thefts taking place in our presence of the Veterinary Officers country because there is no how while we have the Honourable they can stop something that was Minister here to respond on their beneficial to us without replacing behalf. Honourable Minister is it with something else. We are representing them here. also experiencing the same challenge along the Mohembo ACTING MINISTER OF borderline from kilo 20 to kilo AGRICULTURE (MR 85. There used to be people who BATSHU): Thank you Mr were patrolling there but now Chairman and the Honourable they have moved to another House. Yesterday I mentioned camp called Madolo. These that we have been given one people are paid even though they piece of land as Botswana and it no longer do what they used to has to be protected by Batswana do and livestock continues to who can offer advice as to what cross the border. Just recently, could be done to improve the I was told that my livestock has country. That is how a nation is crossed the border. These people developed. What I can say is that were responsible for reporting some years back, before 2006 or when livestock had crossed the 2007, there were some pickets border and when elephants had that were positioned along the destroyed the fence; now they border lines and this was aimed have been removed from these at monitoring the movement of places and are kept in one camp. livestock. As time passed, there That is why I am of the opinion were threats more especially that the Veterinary Department along the Zimbabwean borders. is responsible for all the disease The Zimbabweans stole with outbreaks. So I support this aggression and invaded the camps motion, the Veterinary Officers because officers did not have should be redeployed to those anything to protect themselves posts so that they can control with. Government got advice and

187 Friday 17th June, 2011 Requests for Patrols Along the Border - Motion soldiers were assigned to patrol with the Military force, shall the border from Matlopi up to continue to ensure that the lives Thuli Circle. At least soldiers of Batswana are well protected. were in better position to deal with And we cannot rely on them those who stole by force. There only. So the proposal that has were some challenges in pickets been made by this Honourable which did not have soldiers. That House which can be referred to is why Special Support Group as the fallback position shall be and Police officers were posted taken into consideration too. I from Matlopi to Zibanana in thank you Mr Chairman. 2006-2007. Nevertheless, we KGOSI MALEMA (BOBIRWA still continue to experience some REGION): Thank you Mr problems as already stated by Chairman and all those who Kgosi Malema. Considering the supported this motion... circumstances, Government will continue to appreciate proposals MR CHAIRMAN: If there from this Honourable House is anyone whose cell phone is which are aimed at improving not off, I request that he/she go the situation. outside, switch it off and then come back. Currently, soldiers are in the area that Honourable Kgosi KGOSI MALEMA: Thank you was talking about; that is from Mr Chairman. I appreciate the Mmajale up to Makhurane. They response from the Honourable were posted to that area at a time Minister. I will urge him to when the situation was very bad. address this situation because In 2010 about 13 livestock theft we cannot keep on appreciating cases were reported, the cattle had promises without actions. People been stolen into Zimbabwe. But are getting poorer due to high the Government response to the rate of livestock theft. I thank situation reduced the numbers to those who supported this motion. six but even if one is stolen, that I thank you Mr Chairman. is a serious loss to a Motswana. Question put and agreed to That is why we welcome the advice that has been given by this PROVISION OF EXPERTISE Honourable House because we AND MACHINERY FOR are a democratic Government. I PURPOSES OF DRILLING want to assure this Honourable BOREHOLES House that our Police together MOTION-Deferred

188 Friday 17th June, 2011 Establishment of Old Age Homes - Motion ESTABLISHMENT OF OLD discovered that she had adopted AGE HOMES children who were now refusing to accommodate her because they Motion were all grown up. They could KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH only afford to give her a kitchen EAST DISTRICT): Thank you to sleep in. Mr Chairman, I am Mr Chairman. Let me give the talking about a situation where Honourable Minister the chance we had to engage the Police to to settle down. locate the family members of this MR CHAIRMAN: You old woman. Elderly people are could have just started Kgosi normally susceptible to various Masunga. diseases and they cannot care for themselves because of age. KGOSI MASUNGA: I stand They need a place where they here to request the support of could be well taken care of. Mr this Honourable House on the Chairman, the other reason why motion which reads thus, “that I tabled this motion is that I have this Honourable House requests realised that there is a growing Government to set up old age trend of intolerance of elderly homes for senior citizens who people. The numbers of young have no immediate family people continue to increase in members”. This motion seeks this country and they no longer to request Government to set up give them the love, respect and old age homes. When we talk the resources they deserve. about a senior citizen, who are we exactly referring to? Some Why should we have old say it refers to an elderly person age homes? I believe if our who has reached regenerative Government can establish these growth. homes, they will have facilities that include ambulances, Mr Chairman, the main reason specialised care and also have that has compelled me to table balanced meals three times a day. this motion is that the other Again Honourable Members, this day an old blind woman came establishment will give elders to my office. She was from a chance to meet with others another region in Tutume called who share the situation and Central. We tried to locate her they will share their moments of immediate family members and life. This will again create new we discovered that she has never friendships and also make that had children in her life. We also 189 Friday 17th June, 2011 Establishment of Old Age Homes - Motion home a special place to live in. Elderly people are prone to what Mr Chairman, I deem it worthy we call terminal illness and some for our Government to engage of them are senile, therefore in this kind of program because, I believe that establishing old firstly old age homes that are age homes by Government will established by Government be safe for them because there have a higher security and elders will be social workers on daily would have a sense of belonging. basis to take care of them. I They would feel that society has am very much aware of other not neglected them. In situations programmes that Government where they have no children, then offers to the elderly people like they can be sheltered. General old age pensions and allowances hygiene would be improved, for for World War veterans. Again example, clean laundry. Poor they can even benefit from the hygiene can cause diseases. I destitute program, but these are know some Members may be made for various elderly people wondering why I have tabled to meet their needs and here this motion in a country like this. we are talking of a situation Firstly, extended families are whereby an elderly person does faced with challenges that have not have shelter or immediate been brought about by the new family care to stay in a habitual changes that exist these days. environment. Botswana too has not been able Statistics have revealed that in to escape economic challenges Botswana, we still have home which other countries are faced based care for the elders and with. Furthermore, families can this care is the responsibility no longer afford to stay with of children at home. But as I extended families and this result have already stated, the role of in some elders ending up with the nuclear family is no longer no care given to them because capable of taking care of the they do not have children to extended family. Just to cite an give them that love and care. example, when a couple gets Now Honourable Members, I married, it does not mean that do not think this is an initiative they will forever take care of their to throw our parents away. All in-laws. It sometimes happens we are advocating for is a proper that a husband might lose his care for elderly people who do wife but has a mother who needs not have the privilege to be well to be taken care of and he cannot taken care of.

190 Friday 17th June, 2011 Establishment of Old Age Homes - Motion do it fully. Therefore, if we have take turns in providing care for old age homes they can make a the elderly.What I can say as difference. Some children are I conclude is that, our elders forced to take their parents to be need us and we do love them cared for in some places while in different ways. Not every they go to work and then fetch elderly has had the opportunity them after hours. There are other to achieve or reach his/her goals instances where parents live in in life. So I would like to ask this absolute poverty and those are Honourable House to support the ones that could be put in old me on this motion taking into age homes. consideration our Vision 2016 pillar which talks about a safe In other countries, old age homes and secure nation and I believe are paid; this is a system where this motion is basically about the children of the elderly person that. Mr Chairman, Honourable pay accommodation fees. This Members and Ministers, that is system is more common in South all that I had to say. I thank you. Africa, China and India. I have some reservations on these type MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you of systems because I am not Kgosi Masunga. Those who sure about their safety, that is would like to make a contribution why I am more into government will indicate by raising their ones because I am assured of hands. its legislative frameworks. The KGOSI SEELETSO (TONOTA role of Government is to protect REGION): Thank you Mr its citizens in any aspect of life. Chairman. I stand to support Mr Chairman, I will conclude Kgosi Masunga’s motion which by citing an example; China is requests Government to establish one of the countries which have old age homes. Mr Chairman, it old age homes. Statistics have is indeed true that in our society, revealed that India also has over a we have elderly people who thousand old age homes. Old age unfortunately do not have any homes vary in different countries, children just like the example that some are called community old has been cited by Kgosi. There age homes. This is whereby a are those who have children but particular community takes the their children fail to look after responsibility of caring for the them. Our Government is trying old, in our case it would be a by all means to take care of the ward. Different wards would elderly by providing them with

191 Friday 17th June, 2011 Establishment of Old Age Homes - Motion pension, everybody knows that, do have those kinds of situations but the question is, who collects in our own villages and they are that money on their behalf and very touching. Sometimes we use it responsibly? You will find do check on them at their places that they receive this money just to keep them company or but those who are supposed to we call social workers to assess take care of them in using this the situation, yet their children money fail to do so. Some of the are gainfully employed. Some children receive this money on of them hold lucrative positions behalf of their parents but use it where they work. So it is time for their own benefit and the poor that our Government took into old people will be left in absolute consideration building such an poverty yet the money is there. establishment. Mr Chairman it is important that Before South Africa became an old age home be established. independent, there was a beautiful Just recently, Shoshong residents old age home in Krugersdorp and were furious after a certain I am not sure if it is still there. It councillor, name withheld, uttered was for the whites who were well a very unfortunate statement. He off. You would find that their said that public service officers children were working and spent should be given the 16 percent the whole day out, so at the home, increment they were demanding they would be taken care of instead of giving senior citizens during the day. Assistants would who do nothing but receive be there to take care of them. pension. Indeed this person is Elderly people tend to behave like cursed because he is forgetting children when they get older. After that one day he will be old too. the age of 80, like the age of Kgosi Malema, they develop a sweet There is a need for Government tooth and once that happens, you to provide an old age home for should know that they are back to elders where they will be well children’s behaviour. So where taken care of. Their children can would they get those sweets in visit them at any time to see to rural areas unless they are in old it that they live a better life. I age homes.... (interruption)... I was touched by the story that was just saying that if they are was cited by Kgosi about the old in their rural areas, they do not woman who was rejected by her have access to all those sweet own children and only offered her things they want. I had an in law accommodation in the kitchen. We

192 Friday 17th June, 2011 Establishment of Old Age Homes - Motion in Mochudi who was very old, KGOSI SINVULA every time we visited him, the (SPECIALLY ELECTED): first thing that he would ask for Thank you Mr Chairman. I was a banana and stock sweets. support this motion based on In those special facilities where the reasons that have been given there are caretakers, it will be already. It is true that we are faced easier for them to get those things. with a challenge concerning They need to have a home built the issue that he has already by Government not those ones presented. It is high time that we that are paid for. However, we can request our Government to do still have commercial ones, those something about these challenges who are interested will utilise that we have in our villages. Just them. The question is, will they recently, I was touched by one be able to meet the standards. So certain disabled woman’s ordeal for them to meet the need, they which was on television and will have to hike charges. With that is something that we cannot those few words, I fully support ignore. Honourable Minister, Kgosi Masunga’s motion. I thank even though we are faced with you Mr Chairman. financial challenges which we all are aware of, the situation MR CHAIRMAN: I am one that our elders are in cannot person who strongly believes that be ignored, the bottom line is elderly people need proper care. we are pleading for something I will suspend the proceedings to be done. They are left and for lunch so that they may enjoy forgotten back in the village, their right to eat well on time. that is why we are bringing this PROCEEDINGS issue up, so that the Honourable SUSPENDED FOR LUNCH Minister can get the picture of what we are talking about. If we MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI get a positive response, then we GABORONE): Good afternoon will be grateful because we are once again, Good afternoon talking about the lives of other Kgosi Sediegeng Kgamane. We people here. God has appointed shall continue where we left off. Dikgosi to take care of his people Kgosi Seeletso was done with and our responsibility is to assess his debate, therefore if there are the lifestyle of people along with those who still want to debate on the challenges. If there is a better Kgosi Masunga’s motion, I will way to address them, then that see by way of raised hands. should be done. Mr Chairman

193 Friday 17th June, 2011 Establishment of Old Age Homes - Motion that is what I wanted to say to This is a good motion indeed Mr our Honourable Minister. I thank Chairman. I thank you. you. KGOSI SEEMEKO KGOSI RAMOKWENA (SPECIALLY ELECTED): (MAUN REGION): Thank Thank you Mr Chairman. As I you, Mr Chairman. I only have stand here, I do appreciate that two things, Mr Chairman, I was this motion has been debated saying sometimes a parent can long enough and if it was possible be blessed with boys and girls I could boldly say we should but still go through the same stop here with the debate, but challenges. Sometimes it can then again I am afraid of being happen that daughters abandon called names. So I will just focus the parents and leave them with on my points concerning this sons only. The sons may get motion to avoid name calling. married hoping that their wives What Kgosi is advocating for is would assist them by caring for indeed the normal practice in our their mother, only to find that the neighbouring countries because daughters in law do not want to we leave closer to the borders and take care of their mother in law we have seen these arrangements since they are not her biological in other countries. In a country children. It ends up causing like Namibia, they give it first conflicts. These are some of the priority because they believe that situations that we have witnessed. it was through the hard work of Again it can happen that elderly those elders that put their country people who were rich at a younger on the map. So I believe we are age end up being poor because not just speaking aimlessly, they do not have the strength of but rather from an informed doing anything for themselves decision because we have done a anymore. I do not wish to be research. Mr Chairman, I am just long; I support this motion. We wondering if it will be proper will be able to visit our parents for a child to tell his parents that in those homes to check how they do not deserve to be paid they are doing and keep them anything because all they do is company. Men will have nothing sleep. Anyway, let us not dwell to worry about concerning the much on that one because that care of their parents because person was expressing his view. naturally they are not capable of Lastly, we are not implying that offering that care to their parents. this should be treated as a matter

194 Friday 17th June, 2011 Establishment of Old Age Homes - Motion of urgency because we have ASSISTANT MINISTER OF taken into consideration the fact LOCAL GOVERNMENT that we are still recovering from (HON. TSHIRELETSO): recession. All we are saying is Thank you Mr Chairman and that it should be considered after Kgosi Masunga for tabling this the recovery, it should not be put important motion. Even in this aside, and I believe that even Honourable House, there are the Honourable Minister does those that have already started understands the situation because something, maybe you might have we are talking from experience. heard some being interviewed Mr Chairman, through your on the radio program called powers I move that we go into Masaasele concerning this issue. the last part of the debate to close So as it has been tabled by this the discussion for this motion so Honourable House, we from the that we make progress. I thank Ministry of Local Government you. take it as an important motion. What I can say to this Honourable MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you House is that we have realised the Kgosi Seemeko. Well concerning concerns that were raised by the what you have just said, I just public because I strongly believe wanted to remind Honourable no one can deny the fact that our Members that we still have elders lack good quality care. three motions left and we have Even when the children do not only one and half hours to finish have any intention of neglecting today’s Order Paper. So when we their parents, the conditions debate, let us bear that in mind of work leave them with no because if we share the same choice because sometimes they sentiments about a motion, as I work outside the country and have already said, it is not really they cannot travel with their necessary to keep on echoing the parents across countries. In the same words, instead there should unfortunate event of death, it be progress in what we are doing. might be a challenge to tackle it. I take it that if majority of the As you have already highlighted Members support a motion, it some of the important issues, we is a representation of the whole have to consider all of them. Our House because at the end it is Ministry has thought of coming the responsibility of it to agree up with a policy which will be a to the motion tabled. That is my guide to how these old age homes request. will be run, that is, whether they

195 Friday 17th June, 2011 Establishment of Old Age Homes - Motion will be run by Government or There is a graveyard in Serowe Non Governmental Organisations called Mosusepane and this because it is imperative that we Councillor asked why money do not exclude them. is being wasted on people who are already on their way to One Honourable Member Mosusepane and the implication mentioned a situation in which was that he meant people who children and the parents are are about to die. He also said financially stable and therefore ISPAAD is wasting money on children can take their parents to old people who are about to die, those homes and pay just like in a but we all know that everyone is day care centre. So, for those who entitled to their opinion. are working but do not want to part with their parents, they can Thank you Kgosi Masunga for pay a certain fee to leave them your visionary opinion which had at the old age home during the never crossed some of our minds. day and collect them after work. I was in South Africa observing Parents could also live there on elections and I happened to visit a full time basis if the facilities one of the old age homes and are good, have been inspected they too voted before anyone and have met the standards of an could start doing so. If they are old age home. Another Member established here, it will also help said elderly people behave like those who campaign for elections children as they grow older. So to keep on checking on them so if they are to be taken care of, we that when election time comes, may need institutions similar to they will give you their vote. I nursery schools or preschools. thank you Mr Chairman. Indeed this is a very good motion MR CHAIRMAN: That is and as I have already mentioned, not the intended purpose of our Ministry is already trying to that facility. Okay, thank you devise a policy that will guide Honourable Minister. this. What I can just say is that KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH this motion is well accepted EAST): Thank you Mr Chairman. because this Honourable House I would briefly like to thank this too has already indicated that Honourable House and Minister. I they support it.As Kgosi Seeletso believe this is a good development has stated, it is indeed true that considering the fact that our there is a certain councillor who country is made up of different has uttered the words mentioned.

196 Friday 17th June, 2011 Commemoration of the Existence of Tribal Administration - Motion sectors and various interests. I Administration is a country believe that if we continue to wide department that has been serve the interests of those who there ever since independence. I no longer have the strength to do believe that there is no one here anything for themselves, then we who can dispute that Dikgosi will be following the right track. were the ones who protected Thank you Mr Chairman. this country from the South Africans who wanted to make it MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you part of their country. They went Kgosi Masunga. to Britain to seek for protection Question put and agreed to. from the South Africans. It is through Tribal Administration COMMEMORATION OF that today we are enjoying all THE EXISTENCE OF these good things. Therefore, TRIBAL ADMINISTRATION Tribal Administration is the Motion mother body of all Government KGOSI POTSOENG (NGAMI departments that exist but some REGION): Thank you Mr of these departments are able to Chairman. I stand here to table commemorate their existence. a motion which reads, “That Now the question is, if we this Honourable House request are the mother body, why is it Government to consider setting that it is not possible for us to a day in the calendar for a commemorate our day? When commemoration for the existence we commemorate our day, other of Tribal Administration”. Let departments will support us me start off by highlighting because we are their foundation. that we all know that Tribal Therefore Honourable Members, Administration is the foundation I request you to support me of this country. It was there in requesting Government to before any of these departments. allocate us a day in which we will All these departments that exist be able to celebrate the existence like Land Boards and Councils of this department yearly. I know were formed under Tribal that some will be wondering Administration and some of where we will get the history these departments commemorate of the origin of this Department their existence on a yearly that is, the date when Tribal basis. These include Botswana Administration was started. Police, Prisons. Teachers, etc. There is none of us here who can Honourable Members, Tribal 197 Friday 17th June, 2011 Commemoration of the Existence of Tribal Administration - Motion tell the exact number of years that a day. I thank you Mr Chairman. Tribal Administration has but all MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI these departments originated GABORONE): Thank you, from Tribal Administration, even Kgosi Potsoeng. Some of the those who collect tax. If our Honourable Members had educated children are not able to already raised their hands assist us with their researches in before the mover of the motion terms of establishing the history concludes his presentation. I am of Tribal Administration, then just wondering if they were eager we should use the day when our for him to finish or they had three Dikgosi went to Britain to already made up their minds. We ask forour country’s protection. should always wait for the mover We all know the year when they of the motion to conclude. went there and in that way, we will have a starting point. The KGOSI BOIDITSWE reason why sometimes it looks (SEROWE REGION): Mr like we at Tribal Administration Chairman this motion is an eye do not exist is because we are not opener for some of us. All I doing anything to sell ourselves, knew was that there is Tribal we take things for granted. This Administration and overlooked day should be highly esteemed the fact that it is the mother body and even include cultural of all Government Departments activities. This will show our and the role it has played for history, plans for the future and us to be where we are today. the richness of our culture. The Because of this major role that it activities of the day could include played, the mover of the motion traditional food, traditional beer is requesting for a Tribal day on and even traditional games. If the calendar. Are we not going we commemorate this day, it will to be told that we already have ultimately sell us to the public. other days to commemorate, like We all know that during Teacher’s BDF day as already mentioned day, Honourable Minister by the mover of the motion? Are honours outstanding teachers we not going to have too many with awards, the same goes for public holidays which might Botswana Police, Botswana raise a concern to business people Defence Force (BDF) Day and and even investors? I think we Prisons. Dikgosi could be given should instead come up with awards too. Now I request you to another way to recognise Tribal support this motion to have such Administration.

198 Friday 17th June, 2011 Commemoration of the Existence of Tribal Administration - Motion Mr Chairman, I have said that I an eye opener for me because will be brief, but as I have already I did not know that Tribal stated, I have learnt something Administration is the mother from the mover of the motion. body for a lot of Government It is indeed a very good motion Departments and therefore they and Tribal Administration is the ought to respect and appreciate mother department to a lot of it. I support this motion. I thank other departments. It does not you Mr Chairman. matter whether these departments MR CHAIRMAN: Let me are far developed than Tribal clarify that some of the days are Administration, the fact remains not public holidays, just to avoid that it is the mother body and it is confusion. Police Day, BDF Day, rich with wisdom. The mover of Prisons Day, and Teachers Day the motion has talked about other are not public holidays. commemorated days like Legal Year. Even these courts originate KGOSI MONNAATHEBE from Tribal Administration but (THAMAGA REGION): Thank High Court already has Legal you Mr Chairman. I support this Year and it is in this day that they motion. I think that this motion tell us of their procedures, their came at the right time and I achievements and plans. believe we will all support it. Dikgosi have been leading this Mr Chairman, in conclusion and country from way back and they as already mentioned by Kgosi have handed the baton to us. Potsoeng, I would like to point I sometimes say that Dikgosi out that this commemoration were the custodians of culture will bring recognition to some which could not be tarnished of the minor cultural aspects that by anything, they are like silos are not known and our children (sesigo) which store seeds that will have knowledge about them. cannot be destroyed by pests. Our Mr Chairman, the mover of the parents knew how to preserve motion has polished his thoughts good seeds; they mixed them well about this motion and I think with ashes of goat manure so that we should all support it. This is they could not be destroyed, so, the revival that we need more we continue to follow our fore so that we have been talking fathers’ steps. That is why I am about the issue of culture. Mr of the view that the mover of the Chairman, let me not be long, all motion gave it a good thought. that I can say is that this has been Even though some have not yet

199 Friday 17th June, 2011 Commemoration of the Existence of Tribal Administration - Motion spoken, but at the end of it all, Honourable Member has spoken we are all going to support this of another important issue.- who motion and it might seem like we will speak on our behalf. We will be wasting time echoing the highly appreciate this motion same words. Mr. Chairman, it is in our Ministry and we have not like others were not given come up with a way forward the opportunity to debate. The on implementing this idea. This reason why we are quiet is not motion gives us an opportunity as that we do not have anything to a ministry to take our services to say, it is just that we understand the people and get feedback. On what is being said and agree with this particular day, we will get a it. So I support this motion and chance to hear about cultures maybe this House will agree with from different regions from the me that we close the debate for leaders of different tribes. If this motion and continue with we do it nationally, maybe we other business of the House. I could eventually do it regionally. thank you Mr Chairman. That is why in our response we stated that, ‘the commemoration ASSISTANT MINISTER OF can also provide a platform for LOCAL GOVERNMENT exchange of ideas on how Bogosi ( H O N O U R A B L E can be nurtured and supported for TSHIRELETSO): Thank you promotion of good governance, Mr Chairman. Our Ministry has botho, community building, realised that indeed the mover moral re-degeneration, unity and of the motion has come up social cohesion. Looking at all with a wonderful motion just these, one will realise that this as already mentioned by other will indeed be a great day. Honourable Members. Again one Honourable Member touched on Even though this motion has been the issue of selling ourselves to presented by this Honourable the public because if we do not House, the Ministry will work do that, no one will. This really hand in hand with the Honourable impressed me because when you Members to implement it. I take officially opened this House the it that we will not have a problem other day, I was here and what with our starting point. I heard the you said was good indeed. It is mover of the motion mentioning unfortunate that some people a calendar day, there is really no will misinterpret your speech but need of a calendar day, it is just you have set a pace. Now one a way of putting more emphasis.

200 Friday 17th June, 2011 Inclusion of Education Sector Under Essential Services - Motion After doing all that we have and for as long as God lives, it to do, we will then agree on a shall exist too. It has been there month which will be suitable for even in the Bible. Mr Chairman, us, maybe during the season of I am very glad that you did not ploughing or rainy seasons more take too much time debating this so that emphasis will be placed motion. I thank you. on issues that surround culture. MR CHAIRMAN: Amen pastor, From there, we will have the Amen Honourable Minister. green light to implement because days like Teachers Day, Prisons KGOSI POTSOENG (NGAMI Day, BDF Day, Police Day, they REGION): Thank you Mr are not holidays. We have more Chairman, Honourable Minister commemorations in our Ministry and Honourable Members like Family day, Day of African because this motion did not take Child, Old Age Day and many too much time on the floor. I others but they do not change believe when you saw it, you had anything on the calendar. If they time to digest it and concluded are aimed at developing and that it was good. I am very glad bringing this nation together, then because the Honourable Minister there is really no problem about it. stated that they are interested in If there are days like Valentine’s implementing it. I thank you Mr Day, Fathers and Mother’s day, Chairman. what could possibly stop us from Question put and agreed to. celebrating ours? Mr Chairman, when we received this motion, INCLUSION OF we realised that it should have EDUCATION SECTOR been done long time ago. No UNDER ESSENTIAL one is better placed to come up SERVICES with such a motion except for Motion Honourable Members because they are the driving wheel when KGOSI P. SEELETSO it comes to issues of Bogosi. One (TONOTA REGION): thing that I like about Bogosi Thank you Mr Chairman and is that there is no one who can Honourable Ministers present destroy it, it shall continue to here. Through your permission exist, everything will pass away, Mr Chairman, I would like to but it shall remain standing. It table a motion which reads, is even stated that Kgosi ought “That this Honourable House to be respected just as God is requests Government to include

201 Friday 17th June, 2011 Inclusion of Education Sector Under Essential Services - Motion the Education Sector under the time for groups like Ditshwanelo essential services in accordance to step in to intervene? with Trade Dispute Act, to ensure Mr Chairman, this has caused that the education of our children a great concern to me because is not disrupted during the times even this year around April, the of strike.” same thing happened. There was Honourable Members, I noticed a strike across the country which this motion at the beginning of had been scheduled to last for 10 this year because I was concerned days. Almost all the departments about the future of our children, were affected, even those that our future leaders. Mr Chairman, fall under essential services. there are departments that are The essential service workers, not allowed to go on strike like including those from health, the health services, sewerage water and electricity were then services, electricity services and ordered to resume duty forthwith many others. I was wondering even though some refused to go why these departments were back to work. It took a long time under essential services while the for things to normalise. Those education sector was left out and children who wrote their form given the liberty to strike. I am three final year examinations last looking at the fact that education year, if my memory serves me in our country and all other well, started their form 4 on the countries should be given top 5th of April this year while the priority. Every career is attained form 5’s just re-opened due to through education. Last year these disruptions. On top of that, when students were supposed to when students were just about write their final examinations, to start their lessons, the strike there were chaos and interruptions started. And I got to wonder between teachers and their if indeed they are our future Ministry. Even when it was time leaders as it is always said. Is for marking and invigilation, someone not trying to deprive the same problem occurred. My them of the right to education? concern was that their education Mr Chairman, those teachers was compromised by the very have been educated through people who were given the Government sponsorship, some responsibility of educating them. of them finished school without Is this not violation of Children’s any school fees payment from Right to education? And is it not their parents. However, they now

202 Friday 17th June, 2011 Inclusion of Education Sector Under Essential Services - Motion want to deny the children this them from doing that. There opportunity. Some of the teachers is nothing that is protecting left their children at home and education because they even went to the strike. Is that not refused to invigilate and mark depriving them of their right to the examinations. That is why I education? Some of these issues saw it fit that we should advise have to be attended to seriously our Government to include and it is a pity that some of the teaching under essential services Members of Parliament and just like other departments which Dikgosi are encouraging those have been declared essential on strike to continue with it. services. This is to protect our Are they really fit to be called children’s right to free education parents? If the education sector provided by our Government. is not protected from these Mr Chairman, these are the problems, will it not create too reasons that have prompted me much laxity in this department? to table this motion. If a nurse Some of the products of the or doctor cannot leave a patient University of Botswana are bold unattended, why should a teacher enough to invalidate education leave a student unattended? This in Botswana and yet they were has caused a real concern to me taught here. By so doing, are we and has compelled me to table this not creating a situation whereby motion for consideration.If there at the end, the outside world will is an element of truth in what I have the same opinion that there am saying, then our Government is no education in Botswana? needs to do something to protect The issue of including education education sector. Mr Chairman, I sector under essential services so do not wish to be long, those who that they do not strike like other wish to support it can do so, that crucial departments has been is why I request this Honourable overlooked. House to support me. I thank you. According to me Mr Chairman, the education sector should have KGOSI LEMPADI been included under essential (OKAVANGO): Thank you Mr services, if that is not done then Chairman. This issue is very teachers will not teach students sensitive and covers a lot of and they will instead keep on things. The thing is when we talk striking for salary increment about teachers and education; we without anything stopping are talking about two different

203 Friday 17th June, 2011 Inclusion of Education Sector Under Essential Services - Motion entities. There are private teachers to be addressed first and these and Government employees, are unions. Hence it will be so I am not sure as to how this important for this motion to be is going to be done, will private adopted because it will protect teachers not be allowed to strike Government property. There is a if their employee is not paying lot of vandalism in schools and them well? I need clarification it looks like people are enjoying on that. The law that is currently them whereas these are painful practised does not allow teachers incidents which will in future in managerial positions to engage affect the country’s economy on strike. I do not know how we drastically. But since Parliament are going to address this issue has agreed with unions, I am because we have many private not sure if I should support this schools and this might give motion. Well I do agree that what employers an upper hand and is happening is very painful. Right disadvantage employees not to now, we are not sure if the form go on strike even when they have three students will be able to pass grievances. With those reasons, because their lessons have been I do not understand this motion, affected. Even the vandalism Mr Chairman. I thank you. that is claimed to be caused by students, I am not sure whether it KGOSI TELEKELO is them, why did they not do that (MOSHUPA REGION): Thank before teachers resumed duty? I you Mr Chairman for granting suspect that teachers are the ones me this opportunity, you know influencing students to do that very well that my contribution with a notion of fighting for their is always brief. What the mover right to education. Mr Chairman, of the motion has just said is even though this motion is very well understood and painful important and I am behind it, I at the same time because the think the root cause should be events that took place recently uprooted. With those few words, have prompted him to table this I thank you Mr Chairman. motion. I am not sure as to how I can support this motion because KGOSI GAREBAKWENA this issue has been adopted by (MOLEPOLOLE REGION): Parliament and labour unions Thank you Mr Chairman. I and these strikes are lawful. I want Parliamentary Counsel to believe that for this motion to clarify the criteria that is used to be successful the root cause has determine an essential service,

204 Friday 17th June, 2011 Inclusion of Education Sector Under Essential Services - Motion do we follow the international it cause certain injuries or a threat labor standards or a country to public health. Even though can just have their own tailor those are some of the factors, made laws? What does it take to Bank of Botswana too falls under classify something as an essential essential services, but if workers service? What is it that can hinder go on strike there are no threats us from declaring education as to public health. That is why I essential? So maybe before we was saying that you determine go any further, there could be a things that could pose a threat if clarification so that we can debate workers are a strike and there are from an informed perspective. those that do not. So now it is the responsibility of the Legislatures PARLIAMENTARY to decide on what type of job to COUNSEL (MR classify as essential service. I RAMOKHUA): Thank you thank you Mr Chairman. Kgosi. Let me briefly say that it is upon the Legislators to decide to KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: classify education under essential Thank you Mr Chairman for services. An essential service is the explanation provided by explained under Trade Disputes the Parliamentary Counsel that Act. The schedule for instance essential services are those states that, sewerage services, air services that are deemed to be traffic control services and health critical to the lives of the people. services fall under essential If the health sector goes on strike, services. It further explains that that could cause loss of lives, if transport, not just any transport there is no sewerage services, but the one that provides an people could be infected by essential service in terms of diseases that could cost them communication are treated as their lives, so these are things essential service. The explanation that could have an immediate that has been provided by the effect. So even when it comes to laws of Botswana concerning education, it is just the same as essential service was a decision those ones but the effects of it on that was taken by Parliament. So students will not be evident now, services like air transport control they will be revealed in their lives are guided by Section 43 under after some years. For example, Trade Disputes. They also look at without education, students may factors like, if people rendering become juvenile delinquents. that service do not do so, would Some of them will pick up spirits

205 Friday 17th June, 2011 Inclusion of Education Sector Under Essential Services - Motion of violence, attacking teachers, since the Legislators can change using vulgar language and as and when, I deem it proper for fighting and in that way they can teaching to be included under simply be turned into criminals. essential services. I thank you. This will be revealed if they fail KGOSI SEKWENYANE at school and are unemployed, (NGWAKETSE WEST they will then become criminals. REGION): Thank you Mr That is why it is crucial to have Chairman and for the tabled education under essential services motion. I was reading a newspaper because lack of education can today which had an article that destroy their future, of course stated that Government moves to we are encouraged to engage in include Teachers and Veterinary practical work and be self reliant Officers under essential services. but education plays an important This was said by the Directorate role. We know that it can also of Public Service Management affect their health. My child is (DPSM), Ms Bakwena and currently schooling in Moshupa, when I looked at this motion, I he came back home yesterday was wondering how we could and told us that there is a lot of best address it. I was of the commotion and vandalism of opinion that maybe the mover school property. We have also of the motion could wait for the heard of reports that in other action from DPSM to see how places, the violent behavior is they are going to do it and then still ongoing. So for now, that is that is when we can have our the violence that is happening. input as leaders. I thank you Mr Eventually, it will destroy their Chairman. lives as future leaders. MR CHAIRMAN: Maybe So it is important that teachers too our Parliamentary Counsel can be included in essential services advise us here because I have not just like doctors and other read that newspaper to hear and professions because the shaping affirm the details of that issue and of children’s future is totally whether it is from Government. dependent on teachers. If we do not have effective leaders to take PARLIAMENTARY charge due to strike, we will have COUNSEL (MR to look into this law. I thought that RAMOKHUA): Thank you this was an issue that cannot be Mr Chairman. That is one issue determined by Government, but that could be directed to the

206 Friday 17th June, 2011 Inclusion of Education Sector Under Essential Services - Motion responsible Ministry. As Kgosi operate differently. Mr Chairman, has already said, the mover of the I really think this issue should motion could table a new motion be taken seriously because right because there are provisions in now there is vandalism of school Rules of Procedure that permits property due to the strike and it the mover of the motion to is going to cost Government a lot withdraw it. If the mover has to repair that. That is a serious not done that, I think the motion drawback; we should be working is still on the floor for debate. towards achieving something not Thank you. going back. With those reasons, I support this motion and I hope MR CHAIRMAN: I believe it will be considered by the Kgosi was just reading that Honourable Minister. newspaper and we can proceed. MINISTER OF LABOUR KGOSI KAHIKO III (GHANZI AND HOME AFFAIRS WEST REGION): Thank you (HON. SIELE): Thank you Mr Chairman. I stand here to Mr Chairman. I have been support this motion. Honourable listening attentively to the Members, we are well aware of debates on this motion. We have what happened but those children Parliament which is responsible in schools are the future leaders. for making laws, it submits If the situation can be allowed that law to the responsible to go on like that, who will lead Minister for consideration so us in future? A motion like this that the proposed amendments should be referred to Parliament could be implemented on the for consideration so that it can be affected law. However, we are implemented. Education should talking about the schedule that be put under essential services. the Parliamentary Counsel has Trade unions are private and talked about concerning the independent organisations that essential services. Since the have got nothing to do with this. mover of the motion is talking In private schools, they have about Trade Dispute Act which their own arrangement in terms falls under my Ministry, when we of payments and it does not have look at section 49, through your anything to do with this. When permission Mr Chairman, it states Government teachers were on that, ‘the Minister may by order strike, private schools were on published in the gazette amend with their normal lessons and the schedule’. It encompasses this shows that their employers

207 Friday 17th June, 2011 Inclusion of Education Sector Under Essential Services - Motion these issues. When a motion is vandalism. So this has violated like this, you just have to listen their rights as children but then to the merits as already advanced again being a child does not by Honourable Members and entitle you to be above the law, I do not need to echo them. you have to be punished for that. There has been a mention on With those reasons, I do accept destruction that has been caused. this motion even though the This Honourable House is affected parties may be against therefore requesting Government it. I can not negate it due to the through the Honourable Minister current situation. As I have been to consider including education saying, I will have to present it under essential services. to the stakeholders to show them the grievances that have been This is a very tricky situation aired by Ntlo Ya Dikgosi and the Honourable Members because suggested remedy. There is no our country has subscribed to need for a lengthy response, this international labour laws for Honourable House has supported the freedom of trade unions. this motion with reasons and Even though there is freedom of living examples which can have a trade unions, our Government negative impact on our economy, looks into procedures which our lives and even the future of can prevent the situation that our children. I thank you Mr Honourable Members have been Chairman. referring to. With the current situation as it is, I cannot say KGOSI SEELETSO (TONOTA whether this motion is relevant REGION): Thank you Mr or not. The reasons advanced Chairman and the Honourable by this Honourable House are Minister for the response. I do quite loaded and everyone can not wish to go into much details understand them. What I can say about today’s newspaper because Mr Chairman is that, I have heard I am not into newspapers as they and understood the grievances of can have their own opinion. I this Honourable House. accept what the Honourable Minister has said but let this be An issue like this has to be shared treated with some seriousness with other stakeholders. We have because if not, then our children heard reports from different will not be able to acquire the regions about vandalism of education that this country property and the number of offers. As one Honourable students arrested due to this

208 Friday 17th June, 2011 Inclusion of Education Sector Under Essential Services - Motion Member has already stated, they that takes time and needs all will be turned into criminals and the attention and open minds to juvenile delinquents. Thank you draw up the resolutions that we Mr Chairman and Honourable did. Was it not for your input, we Minister. would have not achieved in these two weeks. Note that this was one Question put and agreed to. way of contributing towards our ESTABLISHMENT OF country’s formulation of laws. EQUALITY COURTS Honourable Minister Batshu stated yesterday and today that Motion Deferred the laws of our country are MR CHAIRMAN: With that, formulated by visionary people we have come to the end of our who want to achieve something. 6th Meeting of the Second Ntlo I believe what we just did was Ya Dikgosi. I would like to part of that so that in future we take this opportunity to thank will know we have contributed everyone especially Ntlo Ya towards the laws that govern us. Dikgosi administration. They Thank you for that participation. have worked tirelessly to make Furthermore, I want to thank our this House business a success Parliamentary Counsel whom we regardless of the obstacles they have worked hand in hand with to might have encountered. We achieve the resolutions proposed all know that the process of by this House. preparing for this House is very long, that includes submission Lastly, I would like to thank of questions and motions by the Honourable Ministers who Members and consideration of have been with us here. We had Bills. I strongly believe that Honourable Batshu yesterday they have worked very hard to and today, Honourable Siele and ensure that we utilize this time other Honourable Ministers who effectively even though we were have been coming here. We want pressed to complete the bulk of to applaud you for your patience the business in a short period. I of spending those days with us to applaud them for that. I would respond to questions and motions also like to thank Honourable asked by Honourable Members. Members for achieving what I believe we shall continue with we came here for in the past the same spirit in future. I hope two weeks, especially the Local we shall not complain again Government Bill. It is something about the absence of Ministers

209 Friday 17th June, 2011 Inclusion of Education Sector Under Essential Services - Motion failing to respond to questions. That is one thing that we have to be thankful for. That is the spirit that we desire; to work together for the betterment of this country. Finally, we are going back to our respective homes and as I have highlighted at the beginning, our responsibility is to continue serving Bogosi, executing our responsibility so as to mould and nurture our country. Let me once again emphasize on the issue of upholding Bogosi, if we do not take it upon ourselves to uphold it, then no one from outside will do that for us. We have to make it a point that our systems are in place to build our communities. Pending issues shall be dealt with in the next sitting. With those words, we have come to the end of this meeting. I wish you all a safe journey as you go back to your regions and continue serving with diligence and productivity. Having said that, our meeting is adjourned. ADJOURNMENT The House accordingly adjourned at 15.52 p.m. sine die.

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