A P P E A R A N C E S
The Sole Member: His Honour Judge Peter Smithwick
For the Tribunal: Mrs. Mary Laverty, SC Mr. Justin Dillon, SC Mr. Dara Hayes, BL Mr. Fintan Valentine, BL
Instructed by: Jane McKevitt Solicitor
For the Commissioner of An Garda Siochana: Mr. Diarmuid McGuinness, SC Mr. Michael Durack, SC Mr. Gareth Baker, BL
Instructed by: Mary Cummins CSSO
For Owen Corrigan: Mr. Jim O'Callaghan, SC Mr. Darren Lehane, BL
Instructed by: Fintan Lawlor Lawlor Partners Solicitors
For Leo Colton: Mr. Paul Callan, SC Mr. Eamon Coffey, BL
Instructed by: Dermot Lavery Solicitors For Finbarr Hickey: Fionnuala O'Sullivan, BL
Instructed by: James MacGuill & Co.
For the Attorney General: Ms. Nuala Butler, SC Mr. Douglas Clarke, SC
Instructed by: CSSO
For Freddie Scappaticci: Niall Mooney, BL
Instructed by: Michael Flanigan Solicitor
For Kevin Fulton: Mr. Neil Rafferty
Instructed by: John McAtamney Solicitor
For Breen Family: Mr. John McBurney
For Buchanan Family/ Heather Currie: Ernie Waterworth McCartan Turkington Breen Solicitors NOTICE: A WORD INDEX IS PROVIDED AT THE BACK OF THIS TRANSCRIPT. THIS IS A USEFUL INDEXING SYSTEM, WHICH ALLOWS YOU TO QUICKLY SEE THE WORDS USED IN THE TRANSCRIPT, WHERE THEY OCCUR AND HOW OFTEN. EXAMPLE: - DOYLE [2] 30:28 45:17 THE WORD “DOYLE” OCCURS TWICE PAGE 30, LINE 28 PAGE 45, LINE 17 I N D E X
Witness Page No. Line No.
CHAIRMAN DELIVERED HIS RULING 1 22
WITNESS 60
EXAMINED BY MR. DILLON 5 1
CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. DURACK 15 24
CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. RAFFERTY 19 27
RE-EXAMINED BY MR. DILLON 24 15
WITNESS 61
EXAMINED BY MR. DILLON 26 3
CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. DURACK 35 1
CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. RAFFERTY 41 19
RE-EXAMINED BY MR. DILLON 44 30
HARMON NESBITT
EXAMINED BY MR. DILLON 48 1
CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. McGUINNESS 61 3
CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. LEHANE 80 13
CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. ROBINSON 82 24
RE-EXAMINED BY MR. DILLON 87 9 Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 1
1 THE TRIBUNAL RESUMED ON THE 5TH OCTOBER, 2011, AS FOLLOWS:
2
3 CHAIRMAN: Morning, ladies and gentlemen. Before we begin
4 today's proceedings, I want to make an observation about
5 witnesses who give evidence anonymously. It has happened,
6 perhaps accidentally that identity has been disclosed in at
7 least one newspaper. I would appeal strongly to all
8 members of the press not to let that happen. It's very
9 important that various people, including former members,
10 retired members of the Royal Ulster Constabulary who are
11 given anonymity for their own protection and security, that
12 should be respected. I would appeal to everybody to take
13 particular care about that.
14
15 Now, the next matter I want to deal with is the application
16 of Freddy Scappaticci.
17
18 MR. MOONEY: Yes, Chairman.
19
20 CHAIRMAN: Oh, good, yes. Thank you very much, Mr. Mooney.
21
22 THE CHAIRMAN DELIVERED HIS RULING AS FOLLOWS:
23
24 CHAIRMAN: Now, my ruling on the application is as follows:
25 By letter dated 24th February, 2006, Messrs. Michael
26 Flanagan Solicitors made a application before the Tribunal
27 to represent Freddie Scappaticci. The Tribunal's view at
28 that time was that Mr. Scappaticci did not require legal
29 representation.
30
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 2
1 By further letter dated 6th May, 2011, Mr. Flanagan sought
2 full representation for his client, Mr. Scappaticci. It
3 was the considered view of the Tribunal that it was
4 appropriate that Mr. Scappaticci be granted limited
5 representation as he had become a person who was at risk of
6 having his good name or his personal property jeopardised.
7 It was, therefore, ordered that Fred Scappaticci be granted
8 representation by solicitor and one counsel, limited to
9 those occasions when he may be mentioned in evidence by
10 order dated 17th May, 2011.
11
12 By application of 28th June, 2011, Mr. Flanagan again
13 requested that the terms of reference be extended to full
14 representation or, in the alternative, to include any
15 occasion when Agent 'Steak Knife' may be mentioned and any
16 occasion when evidence was given in relation to the
17 allegation that members of An Garda Síochána colluded with
18 the IRA in the murders of Chief Superintendent Harry Breen
19 and Superintendent Bob Buchanan.
20
21 By order made on the 26th July, 2011, the Tribunal extended
22 the right of Mr. Scappaticci to limited representation on
23 those occasions when either Mr. Scappaticci or 'Steak
24 Knife' is mentioned.
25
26 By application of the 23rd September, 2001, Mr. Flanagan
27 now applies to extend the terms of his representation to
28 include the occasions when Peter Keeley/Kevin Fulton is
29 mentioned.
30
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 3
1 Two, to extend the terms of his representation to include
2 occasions when Martin Ingram/Ian Hurst is mentioned.
3
4 Three, to expedite a comprehensive process of adverting to
5 his legal representatives when all the evidence within its
6 possession relevant to and touching upon Peter Keeley, Ian
7 Hurst and upon the allegations made against
8 Mr. Scappaticci, and, in any event, not later than 21 days
9 of the date of his application.
10
11 Mr. Flanagan represents Mr. Freddie Scappaticci, who
12 according to his previous application has consistently
13 denied the application that he is 'Steak Knife' in
14 interviews, statements and affidavits. He has sought and
15 has been granted immunity to attend the Tribunal whenever
16 the name 'Steak Knife' is liable to be referred to, in that
17 Mr. Scappaticci would be directly affected by the
18 allegation, and however unfairly, his reputation would be
19 at risk when the Agent 'Steak Knife' is mentioned.
20
21 Having considered the application, it is ruled as followed:
22 Mr. Scappaticci's limited representation cannot be extended
23 to being present on every occasion in which reference is
24 made to the name Kevin Fulton/Peter Keeley. Mr. Fulton is
25 ably represented by solicitor and counsel. Should
26 Mr. Fulton give evidence in person, he will be available
27 for cross-examination by Mr. Scappaticci's legal
28 representatives, who will thus be able to guard his
29 interests. The same criteria apply to the application for
30 extension of his representation to mention of Martin
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 4
1 Ingram/Ian Hurst.
2
3 The Tribunal will continue to abide by its legal
4 obligations and notify Mr. Scappaticci's legal
5 representatives of expected evidence which may prejudice
6 his client's good name from any witness. This will remain
7 the position.
8
9 MR. MOONEY: I'm obliged, Mr. Chairman.
10
11 CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
12
13 MR. DILLON: Chairman, I couldn't see you behind the
14 barrier there. We have two witnesses for you this morning,
15 Chairman, who are two former members of the RUC Special
16 Branch, and they are comprised in the submissions that I
17 made to you a few days ago in relation to the manner in
18 which their evidence will be dealt with. The first point,
19 clearly, is that you have ruled that they're entitled to
20 anonymity. So, in these circumstances could I ask you to
21 rule that the hearing room be vacated very briefly to
22 enable this witness to take his place.
23
24 CHAIRMAN: Yes, I'd be grateful if members of the public
25 would kindly vacate the hearing room so the anonymous
26 witness may take his place behind the screen.
27
28
29
30
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 5
1 WITNESS 60, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS EXAMINED BY MR. DILLON
2 AS FOLLOWS:
3
4 MR. DILLON: Thank you Chairman. Now, this current witness
5 goes by the number 60, 6-0, Chairman. He needs to be sworn
6 in, my apologies.
7 Q. Now, Witness 60, first of all, thank you very much for
8 coming to assist the Chairman. I thinks it's the case that
9 you joined the RUC in 1977, is that right?
10 A. That's correct, Mr. Chairman.
11 1 Q. And you retired in 2005?
12 A. That's correct, Mr. Chairman.
13 2 Q. And at the time you retired you were working with CID, is
14 that right?
15 A. That's correct, that was throughout my service,
16 Mr. Chairman.
17 3 Q. Before I go any further, could I just check that you have
18 got the list of ciphers numbers in front of you?
19 A. I don't.
20 4 Q. Okay. In the event that you wish to refer to a member of
21 the RUC, you should use that cipher list. You may, of
22 course, refer to any member of An Garda Síochána by name,
23 there is no difficulty about that. Now, I think your
24 initial posting or station was Lisburn, is that right?
25 A. That's correct, Mr. Chairman.
26 5 Q. And I think it was at that point that you came across Bob
27 Buchanan?
28 A. Yes, he was a uniformed Inspector in Lisburn at that stage.
29 6 Q. In those days what was the nature of his duties?
30 A. He was a uniform Inspector. He would have had a number of
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 6
1 sergeants and constables working with him. They did a
2 shift system where he would work early shift, late shift,
3 night shift, covering all sorts of crime in the Lisburn
4 area.
5 7 Q. So, he didn't have a cross-border function at the time, is
6 that right?
7 A. No, he didn't.
8 8 Q. Now, how long did you work with Bob Buchanan?
9 A. I was in Lisburn for almost three years, from 1997 to 1980.
10 9 Q. And how did you find Mr. Buchanan as a person?
11 A. A very honest -- I was going to say a Christian man. Very
12 approachable for younger officers. At that stage I was
13 very young in service. Always approachable. Always
14 willing to help. A decent man.
15 10 Q. Was he known for lose talk or how did he conduct himself in
16 that regard?
17 A. He was a very upright -- a man of great integrity, but I
18 wouldn't have known him as a -- he was a supervisor, he
19 wouldn't have been -- we wouldn't have had contact outside
20 work or anything, Mr. Chairman.
21 11 Q. In the context of work, though, was he a man who was
22 careful about what he said or was he given to gossip or can
23 you help us there?
24 A. I would have thought a man beyond reproach would be a way
25 of describing him, Mr. Chairman.
26 12 Q. Thanks for that. Now, I think in the 1980s you served in a
27 number of stations such as Armagh, Lurgan and Portadown,
28 isn't that right?
29 A. That's correct, Chairman.
30 13 Q. And then, in 1988 you have based in Gough Barracks?
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 7
1 A. That's correct.
2 14 Q. I think at that stage you had reached the rank of Detective
3 Inspector?
4 A. That's correct.
5 15 Q. Now, if I could take you to March 1989. Had you any
6 involvement in preparations for the meeting between the two
7 deceased officers and the Garda Síochána?
8 A. No, it wouldn't have been any part of my responsibility or
9 work at all.
10 16 Q. Now, during the course of the day, in the late afternoon,
11 no doubt you got word of the horrible event that had taken
12 place, the murders of the two officers?
13 A. That's correct.
14 17 Q. What was the reaction at the time between yourself and your
15 colleagues when you heard the news?
16 A. There was a feeling of great sadness, first of all, and I
17 suppose a desire on the part of all of the members of the
18 RUC to work as hard as they could to bring those
19 responsible to justice.
20 18 Q. Yes. Now, the Chairman has seen press coverage in terms of
21 press south of the border, immediately the press south of
22 the border raised the possibility that there might have
23 been a mole involved in these killings. Was there any sort
24 of talk of that nature amongst you and your colleagues?
25 A. Not that I can recall. Well, we speculated as we would
26 have done, I suppose, with any gossip, but there was
27 nothing that I was aware of or can recall that there was
28 any substance to it.
29 19 Q. I think you had the sad task of having to identify the
30 bodies of the two deceased officers, isn't that right?
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 8
1 A. Yes, investigating officers from Newry were busy with the
2 scene examination and inquiries in the area. I was asked
3 to go to the mortuary at Craigavon Hospital and formally
4 identify both men to the pathologist, Dr. Carson.
5 20 Q. Yes, just so the Chairman is clear on this one. I think
6 one of your colleagues had the task of identifying the two
7 deceased officers on the road?
8 A. That's correct.
9 21 Q. Whereas your function was to, as it were, to inform the
10 pathologist which body was whose body, if I can put that
11 way, is that right?
12 A. That's correct. There is a formal process that the
13 pathologist must know which individual he is carrying out
14 his examination on, Mr. Chairman.
15 22 Q. I think at the time in March 1989, Mr. Breen was your
16 divisional commander, is that right?
17 A. That's correct, yeah.
18 23 Q. Did you have any contact with him?
19 A. He was in overall charge of the Armagh area. I would have
20 known him. I would have met him on occasions, but we
21 wouldn't have worked closely together. I was in a
22 different, a different department, if you like, I was in
23 the CID end of it, he was in charge of the uniform aspect
24 of the area.
25 24 Q. Now, I think it was late 1989 that your contact with the
26 gardaí developed, is that right?
27 A. That's correct. I moved to Newry.
28 25 Q. And I think one of the guards you had contact with was a
29 man called Dan Prenty?
30 A. Yes, he would have been my opposite number in Dundalk.
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 9
1 26 Q. And did Mr. Prenty come to visit you or did you go visit
2 him? How did the contact develop or establish itself?
3 A. It was mostly by telephone. We would have met on a very
4 infrequent basis.
5 27 Q. And for these meetings, did you go to Dundalk station or
6 did he come to see you in Newry?
7 A. It was a bit of both.
8 28 Q. In terms of you going to Dundalk station, did you make any
9 particular arrangements about travelling to Dundalk?
10 A. I didn't really start going to Dundalk on a more regular
11 basis until 1991.
12 29 Q. Was this in connection with an incident that involved the
13 killing of lady called Rose Moran?
14 A. That's correct. She was killed on the northern side of the
15 border. The investigation was centred in the north, but
16 the suspects were living in the south. And there was a
17 very close working relationship established with the garda
18 in Dundalk over the course after a year.
19 30 Q. I think that meant that you went to Dundalk on a fairly
20 frequent basis, is that right?
21 A. Yes, sometimes it was several times a week.
22 31 Q. And as I say, coming back to what arrangement you made, did
23 you make particular arrangements about travelling to
24 Dundalk?
25 A. Generally you would have contacted the person you were
26 going to see. Well, I suppose, (A), to make sure that they
27 were there and it was convenient to call. So there would
28 have been telephone contact generally first and you would
29 arrange a time to meet.
30 32 Q. And these calls, they were over open lines, is that right?
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 10
1 They weren't scrambled lines, is what I mean?
2 A. No, we didn't have access in the CID office to a scrambled
3 line.
4 33 Q. Did you ever feel any sense of danger or threat of danger
5 when you were travelling to Dundalk?
6 A. Well, Newry at that time was a dangerous place for police
7 officers and soldiers anyway. I mean, I think a quarter of
8 all the soldiers and one-sixth of all the police officers
9 who were killed in the troubles in Northern Ireland were
10 killed in Newry subdivision, so it was a dangerous place to
11 work. But it was no more dangerous going across the border
12 than it was to work in Newry, I felt. So you were careful
13 as far as you could be.
14 34 Q. That's fair enough. But did you, yourself, ever have any
15 sense of danger or being in danger?
16 A. You were always apprehensive. You were careful, but it
17 didn't preclude you from doing your job.
18 35 Q. Now, I'm just going to ask Mr. Mills to put this up on the
19 screen, this is a newspaper headline. You can see it
20 there, it's from the Evening Herald of the day. Oh, sorry,
21 the Evening Press, I think, of the day. Was there ever
22 discussion amongst you and your colleagues about the
23 possibility of a mole or an informant in Dundalk station?
24 A. No, I was never told by colleagues either north or south
25 about a mole in Dundalk station.
26 36 Q. And did you ever see any specific piece of intelligence
27 which was gathered in 1985 suggesting the existence of an
28 informant in Dundalk station, did you ever see such
29 intelligence?
30 A. No.
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 11
1 37 Q. Were you ever advised to be careful with regard to one or
2 other member of the Garda Síochána?
3 A. No, I developed, I would say, a close and lasting
4 friendship with many garda officers who worked in Dundalk.
5 At no stage was any individual mentioned to me to be
6 careful in talking to or dealing with.
7 38 Q. And do you remember a guard called Larry Crowe?
8 A. Yes, he worked on that murder investigation in 1991.
9 39 Q. And then just speaking further of guards, a guard called
10 Joe or Joseph Egan?
11 A. I believe he was a senior officer based in Dublin, but I
12 may have met him, but I didn't work closely with him at
13 all.
14 40 Q. Now, I think it's the case that - just bear with me a
15 second now - when you're dealing with intelligence best
16 practice is to grade the intelligence by source and by
17 information, isn't that right?
18 A. Yes, there was various grading systems, but you graded the
19 source and also graded the intelligence. So, there are two
20 separate aspects to the intelligence.
21 41 Q. Is it fair to say that ordinarily a reliable source
22 ordinarily provided good information?
23 A. Yes, but sometimes a source could repeat what they had
24 heard and they may have heard something that was incorrect,
25 so they may well have given information in good faith but
26 it may have been incorrect.
27 42 Q. Oh, indeed, that can certainly happen, and we've -- the
28 Chairman has heard that. Now, I think that Special Branch
29 looked after their own intelligence, isn't that right?
30 A. That's correct, there were two separate strands, if you
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 12
1 like, for dealing with intelligence.
2 43 Q. And I think that the Special Branch people were careful
3 with whom they shared their intelligence, if I can put it
4 that way?
5 A. Yes, they gathered intelligence on terrorism. CID
6 officers, well the officers that I worked with, gathered
7 evidence but they would also have gathered intelligence.
8 Had CID officers, for example, gathered intelligence on
9 national security or terrorism, that would have been
10 filtered and passed through the Special Branch system. CID
11 have their own system for dealing with intelligence
12 relating to purely criminal matters.
13 44 Q. Yeah. I think one of the annotations one might see on a
14 piece of intelligence is NDD, which I think means No
15 Downward Dissemination, is that right?
16 A. That's correct, Mr. Chairman.
17 45 Q. And I think this was a means to protect the confidentiality
18 of the information?
19 A. That's correct. That would have been, I would suspect,
20 used for particularly sensitive intelligence.
21 46 Q. And I think one source of intelligence, it's well known, is
22 a man called Kevin Fulton?
23 A. That's correct, Mr. Chairman.
24 47 Q. And I think he was a source of intelligence in or about the
25 Newry area?
26 A. He was initially, but then it was later Belfast, I believe.
27 48 Q. Yes. And I think that he worked -- he didn't just work for
28 CID but he worked for a number of agencies, isn't that
29 right?
30 A. That's correct, Mr. Chairman.
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 13
1 49 Q. And I think the feeling is that over the years he gave some
2 good intelligence?
3 A. That's correct, yes.
4 50 Q. So much so that I think there was one incident where lives
5 were saved?
6 A. That's correct, Mr. Chairman.
7 51 Q. I think you're aware that -- well, it follows from what you
8 just said, that Mr. Fulton was in the IRA at some point,
9 isn't that right?
10 A. That's correct, Mr. Chairman.
11 52 Q. But you don't know precisely what role he played within the
12 organisation?
13 A. No, and it was only much later that I was aware that he had
14 been, well, (A), an informant, and that he had passed
15 intelligence relating to that particular incident.
16 53 Q. I think you're aware of the existence of a man called
17 'Mooch' Blair, Eric 'Mooch' Blair?
18 A. Yes, I'd never met the individual or wouldn't know him if I
19 saw him.
20 54 Q. I think that when you were based in Newry he was south of
21 the border at the time, is that right?
22 A. Yes, he was in Dundalk, Mr. Chairman.
23 55 Q. Now, if I conclude on three matters. Did you ever meet a
24 guard who was a Detective Sergeant at the time called Owen
25 Corrigan?
26 A. No, I didn't, and again, it's only much later that I was
27 aware that his name was being mentioned.
28 56 Q. When the name was mentioned, in what context was his name
29 mentioned?
30 A. I can't remember the first occasion, I'm not sure whether
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 14
1 it was mentioned in Parliament or in a book or newspapers,
2 I can't honestly remember now, but the name didn't mean
3 anything to me.
4 57 Q. Was he named amongst your colleagues, by any chance?
5 A. I can't honestly remember, but certainly in my time in
6 Newry I never came across the individual either personally
7 or was his name mentioned to me by any colleague north or
8 south.
9 58 Q. Very well. Now, two other names I'll put to you, the first
10 is a uniformed Sergeant called Leo Colton. Did you ever
11 come across him?
12 A. No, Mr. Chairman.
13 59 Q. And the second is again a uniformed Sergeant, Finbarr
14 Hickey, who was ultimately based in Hackballscross station.
15 Did you ever come across him?
16 A. No, Mr. Chairman.
17 60 Q. One last matter, when you travelled to Dundalk station, did
18 you use your own car or did you use a police car or how did
19 you travel?
20 A. No, I would never have used my own car, Mr. Chairman. We
21 had access to a number of civilian cars attached to the CID
22 office. They were changed on a regular basis, and we would
23 have used those cars.
24 61 Q. And in the event that you traveled to Dundalk, it was one
25 of those cars that you used, is that correct?
26 A. That's correct.
27 62 Q. And you always went by road?
28 A. Always went by road, yes, and invariably always by the main
29 road.
30 63 Q. So there wasn't a practice of going down one road and
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 15
1 coming back up a different road, is that right?
2 A. Not with me, I would probably be afraid of getting lost,
3 Mr. Chairman.
4 64 Q. Fair enough.
5 A. Some of the smaller roads -- I would rather have stuck to
6 the main road.
7 65 Q. And when you came to Dundalk station in your car, where did
8 you park it?
9 A. Generally when we would have telephoned in advance to
10 arrange the meeting, whoever I was speaking to would have
11 said come in around the back or leave the car around the
12 back, and the gate at the side of the station would have
13 been opened, and we would have left the car out of public
14 view in the backyard.
15 66 Q. So, is that, then, how you met up with the person you were
16 going to meet, because he was there to let you in, or, did
17 you then go and announce yourself in the Public Office?
18 A. Well, if the back door or back gate hadn't been opened, we
19 would have gone in the front office and asked at the
20 inquiry desk for the person that we were there to see.
21
22 MR. DILLON: Thank you.
23
24 THE WITNESS WAS CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. DURACK AS FOLLOWS:
25
26 67 Q. MR. DURACK: My name is Michael Durack, sir. I appear for
27 An Garda Síochána. Just a couple of matters. Am I right
28 in thinking that CID and Special Branch operated, if you
29 like, as separate empires?
30 A. Yes, they had two distinct functions, yes.
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 16
1 68 Q. And that you were dealing with ordinary crime and they were
2 dealing mostly with terrorist crime?
3 A. Well, I was investigating both ordinary and terrorist
4 crime. If there had been a terrorist murder in Newry, CID
5 would have investigated it. Special Branch would have
6 gathered intelligence perhaps in relation to it, but CID
7 investigated both ordinary, if you like, and terrorist
8 crime.
9 69 Q. But I take it that if Special Branch came across
10 intelligence which they considered to be relevant to you,
11 that they would advise you of it?
12 A. Well, that would have been the hope, but it wasn't always
13 the case.
14 70 Q. But equally, I take it, that if there was question that
15 there were lives of policemen at stake, you would expect
16 the Special Branch to make everybody aware of it?
17 A. Well, in my experience Special Branch would never have
18 allowed a police officer or a soldier or a civilian to be
19 killed or injured if they could have avoided it just simply
20 to protect a source.
21 71 Q. Of course. But I take it when you told us that there was
22 speculation about a mole at various stages, that there was
23 no confirmation from Special Branch of any intelligence of
24 that?
25 A. That's correct, I was never told by Special Branch about an
26 individual in Dundalk who they had concerns about.
27 72 Q. And they would, of course, have been aware of the fact that
28 you were in fairly regular contact with Dundalk and going
29 there?
30 A. Yes, yes, very much. From, well I think from 1990,
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 17
1 September 1990 a man called Louis Robinson was abducted and
2 killed on the main road from Dundalk to Newry and there was
3 a joint RUC/Garda investigation into that, and that sort of
4 was the start of the relationship that I built up with the
5 Gardaí.
6 73 Q. I think that, am I right in thinking that that related to a
7 number of people who went fishing town in Dingle, I think?
8 A. Yes, it was a police officer who had gone with a number of
9 prison officers fishing in Dingle and their minibus was
10 stopped on the main road coming home.
11 74 Q. And it would appear that the IRA in some way or other had
12 intelligence from there that enabled them to know that they
13 were travelling?
14 A. Yes, I think they weren't exactly sure of which individual
15 it was, but it was one of five and unfortunately Louis
16 Robinson was taken away and killed.
17 75 Q. And that, of course, had no connection at all with Dundalk,
18 that was an independent operation?
19 A. I couldn't comment, I don't know.
20 76 Q. I see. But it was certainly an example of the IRA
21 collecting intelligence from as far away as Dingle?
22 A. Yes, the suspicion certainly at the time was that there was
23 lose talk in Dingle, although that couldn't be ever proved,
24 and to my knowledge nobody was ever convicted for the
25 offence, but a garda, a Chief Superintendent was appointed
26 to work directly with us on the investigation and garda
27 certainly did any inquiries that we asked them to do and
28 carried out their own investigation.
29 77 Q. But nothing I think came of it in the end?
30 A. No, regrettably no.
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 18
1 78 Q. And I take it from what you've said then, we've had
2 reference from time to time to a 1985 intelligence in
3 relation to concerns about Dundalk, you never became aware
4 of that?
5 A. No, in 1985 I was working in north Armagh and had no
6 contact really with Newry or Dundalk in those days.
7 79 Q. You mentioned Kevin Fulton, what did you make of him?
8 A. In my experience, he seemed to provide some good
9 intelligence when he started with a number of
10 organisations. The quality of the intelligence then seemed
11 to drop. And I, at a later stage, had a role of
12 authorising sources under the regulation of Investigatory
13 Powers Act, and I refused to authorise him to provide
14 intelligence because I believed that he was an intelligence
15 nuisance.
16 80 Q. By "intelligence nuisance", what do you mean?
17 A. He was more trouble than he was worth.
18 81 Q. I see. And likely to provide false information?
19 A. Yes.
20 82 Q. You were saying in relation to your trips to Dundalk, did
21 you always go to the station or did you ever arrange to
22 people elsewhere?
23 A. I would have met elsewhere. For example, that murder
24 investigation a car was found in a particular area in the
25 country, so we would have gone to see where the car was
26 recovered, but generally we would have gone to the station
27 first and we would have been taken by the garda to various
28 locations. There was also, I mean, social events, for
29 example, that we would have maybe played a game of golf
30 against garda.
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 19
1 83 Q. I follow you. And in terms of not choosing your own car to
2 travel, I take it that was because -- amn't I right in
3 thinking Newry station was on the main road and easily
4 watched?
5 A. No, Newry station, the station that I worked in was in
6 Corry Square in the town centre, but it would have been
7 easy to watch any establishment, and a number of people had
8 been subsequently arrested and convicted for gathering
9 information on cars entering Corry Square police station.
10 84 Q. And I take it the reason for using the main road, aside
11 from not wanting to get lost, is that you have somewhat
12 better cover if you are in more traffic?
13 A. That's correct. There were watchtowers. There was a
14 permanent vehicle checkpoint, and there was more traffic,
15 if you like.
16 85 Q. You're lest likely to be isolated?
17 A. That's correct.
18
19 MR. DURACK: Thank you very much indeed.
20
21 CHAIRMAN: Any other questions?
22
23 MR. LEHANE: No questions.
24
25 MR. CALLAN: No questions.
26
27 THE WITNESS WAS CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. RAFFERTY AS FOLLOWS:
28
29 MR. RAFFERTY: Yes, Mr. Chairman. My name is Neil
30 Rafferty, and I appear on behalf of the gentlemen we've
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 20
1 been talking about, Kevin Fulton.
2 86 Q. I want to -- when did you move down to Newry as a CID
3 inspector?
4 A. 1989, December 1989.
5 87 Q. December 1989. And in your time as a Detective Inspector
6 you would have known Kevin Fulton as Peter Keeley, is that
7 correct?
8 A. That's correct.
9 88 Q. And you would have known him as an IRA man in the area?
10 A. That's correct, I interviewed him in Gough Barracks for
11 terrorist offences.
12 89 Q. Yes. And at that stage you'd no idea that he was an
13 informant, is that correct?
14 A. He may not have been an informant at that stage. I don't
15 know what time he actually became an informant.
16 90 Q. Would it be more accurate to say that you had, as it were,
17 evidence or belief that he was an active IRA man involved
18 with the IRA in south Armagh and Newry?
19 A. I know he was arrested for a specific offence where I
20 interviewed him. I don't know at this stage what
21 intelligence there was about the rest of his involvement.
22 91 Q. But suffice to say you knew him as an IRA man?
23 A. That's correct.
24 92 Q. Can I ask, was it the Eoin Morley murder he was arrested
25 for by you?
26 A. No, it was in relation to ammunitions.
27 93 Q. Ammunitions and explosives found in a house connected with
28 him, is that correct?
29 A. I think it was a later one. I can't honestly remember, but
30 I believe it was in relation to ammunitions found in a
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 21
1 house.
2 94 Q. Suffice to say this Tribunal can take from you that it's
3 absolutely sure that he was involved with the IRA in and
4 about the late 1980s and early '90s?
5 A. Yes.
6 95 Q. Now, I want to ask you about -- you have been asked about a
7 man called 'Mooch' Blair?
8 A. Yes.
9 96 Q. And he would have been regarded as a senior IRA figure,
10 would he?
11 A. Yes.
12 97 Q. Now, he was living down in Dundalk?
13 A. I believe so, yes.
14 98 Q. Can I ask, were a lot of operations in Newry, south Armagh
15 conceived and planned in Dundalk?
16 A. I couldn't comment, I'm not sure. I've never seen or been
17 privy to the planning for a terrorist operation.
18 99 Q. I appreciate that. But certainly 'Mooch' Blair, he was
19 based in Dundalk?
20 A. Yes.
21 100 Q. Did you hear that?
22 A. Yes, 'Mooch' Blair was based in Dundalk, yes.
23 101 Q. And if we accept for one moment that Peter Keeley was an
24 informant at that stage, it would have been of interest to
25 Special Branch and MI5 to have somebody going down to
26 Dundalk to find out what was going on?
27 A. It would have been of interest to intelligence-gathering
28 organisations to find out what was going on, yes.
29 102 Q. Now, can I suggest to you that you would have known 'Mooch'
30 Blair and Peter Keeley as known associates, would that be a
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 22
1 phrase you would agree with?
2 A. At that particular time I would not have been privy to all
3 of the intelligence, and unless they came up in the course
4 of an investigation, I wouldn't know that association
5 necessarily.
6 103 Q. So, as a CID man you wouldn't know that?
7 A. I'm not saying I wouldn't have known, I have no
8 recollection of knowing.
9 104 Q. I appreciate the difference. In relation to the giving of
10 intelligence, you became aware at a later date that Peter
11 Keeley had been an informant?
12 A. That's correct.
13 105 Q. Do you recall when that was?
14 A. I couldn't put a date on it, no.
15 106 Q. And as an informant, you became aware that he had passed
16 intelligence to Special Branch and MI5?
17 A. To Special Branch, yes.
18 107 Q. To Special Branch?
19 A. Yes.
20 108 Q. And that was in connection with a planned incident where
21 lives were saved?
22 A. That's correct.
23 109 Q. Can you tell us what that incident was?
24 A. I would rather not.
25
26 MR. DILLON: Chairman, I ask that you might respect the
27 witness's position in this matter.
28
29 MR. RAFFERTY: No --
30
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 23
1 CHAIRMAN: Yes. What's your view on that, Mr. Rafferty?
2
3 MR. RAFFERTY: -- if I could put it this way: There is
4 incident in the public domain where there was a planned
5 mortar attack on Newry courthouse. If the witness says
6 it's not that incident, then I'll move on.
7
8 A. It's not that incident.
9
10 MR. RAFFERTY: Certainly I'll move on.
11 110 Q. Suffice to say, you are satisfied that he gave information
12 that saved lives?
13 A. That's correct, yes.
14 111 Q. Sorry, there is a bit of a technical difficulty, Detective
15 Inspector. In relation to the reliability of informants,
16 you were asked and you said he became an intelligence
17 nuisance, do you recall that?
18 A. That's correct.
19 112 Q. I want to suggest to you that there is a lifespan for an
20 intelligence agent and informant, and that during his early
21 days as an informant as far as you're concerned he gave
22 good intelligence, is that correct?
23 A. That is what I have been told laterally by people who were
24 involved with his handling, yes.
25 113 Q. So, he became exposed by the IRA as an informant in or
26 about 1994, and his intelligence after that became somewhat
27 suspect, are you aware of that?
28 A. No, I mean, I never spoke to him as a source. I never saw
29 any of the intelligence documents that he produced, so I
30 couldn't really comment with any degree of certainty about
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 24
1 that.
2 114 Q. Well, would you agree with my submission to you or question
3 to you, that prior to 1994 when he became exposed, he was
4 giving reliable intelligence?
5 A. Yes, I mean, as I have said, when he started with the
6 various organisations he did provide some good intelligence
7 not only on terrorist crime but ordinary crime.
8
9 MR. RAFFERTY: Thank you very much.
10
11 CHAIRMAN: Any other questions?
12
13 MR. DILLON: Just very briefly.
14
15 THE WITNESS WAS RE-EXAMINED BY MR. DILLON AS FOLLOWS:
16
17 115 Q. MR. DILLON: Witness 60, what contact, if any, did you have
18 with a man called 'Mooch' Blair?
19 A. None. I never met the person, never interviewed him.
20 Wouldn't know him if I saw him.
21 116 Q. And in the course of your work, did you receive information
22 in relation to Mr. Blair?
23 A. I believe that he was a suspect for some of the terrorist
24 offences around Newry at that time, but I'm not exactly
25 sure which one. I left Newry in 1994.
26 117 Q. And is it fair to say that his only connection with the
27 police and the RUC was as a potential suspect, is that
28 right?
29 A. In my experience, yes.
30
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 25
1 MR. DILLON: Thank you.
2
3 CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, Witness 60.
4
5 MR. DILLON: Chairman, before this witness leaves it will
6 be necessary for the room to be vacated, and could I ask
7 you to rise for five minutes. There is a matter I need to
8 attend to before calling the next witness.
9
10 CHAIRMAN: All right. Very well. If the members of the
11 public would very kindly leave the room until this witness
12 is withdrawn. And then for five minutes later I'll rise
13 until Mr. Dillon is ready again. Thank you very much for
14 leaving.
15
16 Witness 60, thank you for coming here to give evidence,
17 it's much appreciated, your help.
18
19 THE WITNESS THEN WITHDREW.
20
21 THE TRIBUNAL ADJOURNED BRIEFLY AND RESUMED AS FOLLOWS:
22
23 MR. DILLON: Thank you, Chairman. We have a second witness
24 this morning who also has the benefit of your ruling on
25 anonymity, and again I must and I'm sorry about the
26 inconvenience, but it's a necessary inconvenience, ask that
27 the room be cleared for two minutes while the witness is
28 introduced into the room.
29
30 CHAIRMAN: Yes. Can any members of the public leave the
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 26
1 room just until the witness is seated, please.
2
3 WITNESS 61, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS EXAMINED BY MR. DILLON
4 AS FOLLOWS:
5
6 MR. DILLON: Mr. Chairman, before I take this witness, just
7 a technical matter. You may recall that there was some
8 difficulty with the microphones with the previous witness.
9 I understand it may have been caused by some mobile phones,
10 which clearly should be off.
11
12 CHAIRMAN: It wasn't my mobile phone because it's upstairs.
13 If anybody has a mobile telephone --
14
15 MR. RAFFERTY: I have my mobile off, just in case you think
16 it was me.
17
18 CHAIRMAN: I wouldn't dream of accusing you.
19
20 MR. RAFFERTY: No, I appreciate that.
21
22 CHAIRMAN: Anyway, if everybody could turn off their mobile
23 telephone because it does interfere with the sound.
24
25 MR. DILLON: Thank you, Chairman. Now, the next witness
26 goes by the number 61.
27 118 Q. First of all, Witness 61, thank you very much for coming,
28 we greatly appreciate your assistance. I think it is the
29 case that you joined the Force, the RUC, in 1968?
30 A. That's correct.
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 27
1 119 Q. And can you tell us when you retired?
2 A. 2001.
3 120 Q. 2001. And coming closer to the time in question, I think
4 in 1985 you became a Chief Inspector of the Special Branch,
5 isn't that right?
6 A. Correct.
7 121 Q. I think at the time you were responsible for what might be
8 called the western region?
9 A. Correct.
10 122 Q. You were based in Gough Barracks. And I think Gough
11 Barracks had a dual role, in that it dealt with both east
12 and west, isn't that right?
13 A. Correct.
14 123 Q. And I think it was in 1988 that your functions were
15 transferred to the eastern region?
16 A. Correct.
17 124 Q. And I think at that stage you had reached the rank of
18 Superintendent, am I right?
19 A. '89.
20 125 Q. '89, very good. I think one of your stations had been
21 Omagh, is that correct?
22 A. Correct.
23 126 Q. When you were in Omagh you worked with Bob Buchanan?
24 A. Correct.
25 127 Q. Can you describe Bob Buchanan to the Chairman, please?
26 A. Bob Buchanan was a very decent God-fearing gentleman.
27 128 Q. And as a professional officer, how did you find him?
28 A. One of the best.
29 129 Q. Was he a man who was careful with his words or did he speak
30 freely or did he gossip?
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 28
1 A. I would say he spoke very carefully.
2 130 Q. And if he were to make a statement that were critical of
3 somebody, is it your belief from your understanding of the
4 man that he had some -- he would have based that statement
5 on some ground, some firm ground?
6 A. Absolutely.
7 131 Q. Now, mention has been made of an item of intelligence that
8 was gathered in 1985, are you aware about this?
9 A. Please enlarge on it.
10 132 Q. Sorry, that's my mistake. 1985 which alleged that there
11 was an informant in Dundalk station?
12 A. I'm not aware of that.
13 133 Q. You're not aware of that. I think that in the ordinary
14 course, intelligence is processed through the, if I can put
15 it this way, bureaucracy of the PSNI and it should have
16 reached a senior level, is that right?
17 A. Correct.
18 134 Q. The level, at least, of Chief Constable?
19 A. Correct.
20 135 Q. And looking at your cipher list, can you tell us which
21 number was the Assistant Chief Constable, the relevant
22 Assistant Chief Constable for intelligence or for Special
23 Branch in 1985?
24 A. 37.
25 136 Q. Number 37, thank you. And I think that once intelligence,
26 whether it's the 1985 intelligence I've just mentioned or
27 any other intelligence is received, it's analysed, isn't
28 that right?
29 A. Correct.
30 137 Q. And then it is maintained in a condition of strict
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 29
1 confidentiality with restricted access, isn't that right?
2 A. Correct.
3 138 Q. Now, I think in your time with the RUC you dealt with
4 various members of the Garda Síochána, is that right?
5 A. I did, yeah.
6 139 Q. First of all, did you have a cross-border function or was
7 it in relation to specific incidents?
8 A. We had a cross-border function where we had a formal
9 meeting, I think it was monthly or bi-monthly.
10 140 Q. Yes. I wonder is there a microphone that could be brought
11 a bit closer to the witness. So you had these monthly or
12 bi-monthly meetings, and it was in that context that you
13 met up with members of the Garda Síochána?
14 A. Correct, and also informally when the occasion was
15 necessary.
16 141 Q. I think amongst those you recall were Myles Hawkshaw, a
17 Garda Walsh and a Superintendent called Mick, might that
18 have been a man called Mick O'Driscoll?
19 A. Mick Finnegan.
20 142 Q. Mick Finnegan. Very good. Now, going back to information
21 received, I think it was kept at a fairly senior level
22 within the RUC, isn't that right?
23 A. Correct.
24 143 Q. And I think when you speak of senior level, it's the level
25 of Superintendent or above, is that right?
26 A. Yes.
27 144 Q. Now, as you know, there were three murders which occurred,
28 that of Lord Justice and Lady Gibson, that of the Hanna
29 family and that of your two deceased colleagues. Do you
30 know anything about where the IRA might have got
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 30
1 information in relation to the whereabouts of these
2 individuals?
3 A. Can I just say, there were three other police murdered in
4 close proximity to where Lord Justice Gibson was also
5 murdered. I'd forgotten about those.
6 145 Q. Yes. Was there ever any suggestion of collusion in
7 relation to any of the murders that we've now mentioned?
8 A. No.
9 146 Q. Do you remember the murder the Hanna family?
10 A. I do.
11 147 Q. I think at the time the intended target was, as it happens,
12 another judge of the High Court, isn't that right?
13 A. That is correct.
14 148 Q. Do you recollect whether that judge was travelling under a
15 false name or an assumed name, I should say?
16 A. I don't, to be honest. I was on holiday out of the country
17 at the time it happened.
18 149 Q. Fair enough. What experience do you have of the way the
19 IRA organised its operations?
20 A. In south Armagh?
21 150 Q. Yes.
22 A. I would describe South Armagh PIRA as a ruthless, efficient
23 and cohesive IRA unit who basically conducted operations
24 both locally, nationally and internationally.
25 151 Q. Is it the case that in your view that it was, as it were, a
26 distinct section of the IRA which operated on it's own or
27 did it operate in conjunction with other sections of the
28 IRA?
29 A. Probably both.
30 152 Q. Now, I don't know if you're aware of this, but there is a
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 31
1 witness who gave evidence to the Chairman. If you look at
2 your cipher list you'll see he's listed as number 27.
3 Could you have a look there and tell me if you recognize
4 who number 27 is?
5 A. Yes.
6 153 Q. Is he a colleague you worked with?
7 A. I didn't work with him directly, no.
8 154 Q. But you know who he is?
9 A. I do, yeah.
10 155 Q. Now, he gave the following evidence to the Chairman, and
11 I'm going to put it to you and ask you to comment on it,
12 it's as follows:-
13
14 He was asked: "Do you recall did you receive any
15 information in the wake of the murders as to how it was
16 mounted, as to the number of IRA men involved?
17 Answer: I was given from a credible witness anonymously,
18 obviously, the fact that there may have been up to 32
19 people involved."
20
21 Sorry, I've read the wrong page. Apologies. I'll start
22 again.
23
24 "I want to turn -- this is a matter that you raised in your
25 statement and it is information that the late Chief
26 Superintendent Murray of Special Branch gave to you
27 subsequent to the killings, could you just elaborate on
28 that for the Chairman, please?"
29
30 And then Witness 27 answered: "He indicated, sir, that
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 32
1 there had been quite a noticeable trafficking of, air
2 trafficking of radio signals that were known to belong to
3 illegal terrorists.
4 Question: Did he indicate when they had been picked up?
5 Answer: In the early afternoon of the day of the murders,
6 around lunch time and onwards.
7 Question: And as far as you're concerned, does that
8 suggest anything to you about how the operation was
9 planned?
10 Answer: There was obviously people on the ground,
11 terrorists, actively involved in organising something or
12 communicating with each other. That could have been about
13 anything, it could have been about smuggling. It's just
14 the fact that they were operational on the ground. It
15 could have been planning an ambush, I do not know.
16 Question: So it may or may not necessarily have related to
17 the subsequent -- to the events later that evening?
18 Answer: It is impossible to be definite about what the
19 transmissions were because it was only technical noises.
20 There were no conversations overheard or anything to my
21 knowledge."
22
23 Now, is there anything you can say to the Chairman in
24 relation to that?
25 A. I don't recall ever hearing that.
26 156 Q. Very well. Now, there is a second occasion when this
27 matter arose with the same witness, Witness 27:-
28
29 "Question: Mr. Valentine asked you about the reported
30 radio traffic in the area. You were informed of that
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 33
1 obviously by the deceased Chief Superintendent Murray?
2 Answer: Correct.
3 Question: Would you be happy to presumably rely on that as
4 reliable information from your knowledge of how such
5 transmissions are surveyed upon?
6 Answer: He said there was activity, transmission activity,
7 and I honestly believed he had no reason to say otherwise.
8 Question: We have some other evidence of that, but you
9 recorded in your statement in the following terms: 'I was
10 subsequently told by my late colleague, Detective Chief
11 Superintendent Frank Murray, that from about midday on the
12 day of the murders a high level of'" - and a word was
13 blacked out - "activity known to be known been generated by
14 paramilitary groups was recorded in the south Armagh area'?
15 Answer: That's correct.
16 Question: We're talking about the area, therefore, a
17 number of hours before the murders were committed?
18 Answer: Yes, south Armagh is a big area, that's the
19 problem."
20
21 That is the end of that exchange. Is there anything you
22 can say to the Chairman in relation to that?
23 A. I don't recall that.
24 157 Q. Very good. Now, I want to deal with a number of
25 individuals who are here represented before the Chairman.
26 The first is a Detective Sergeant, as he was then in 1989,
27 Owen Corrigan. Did you have any dealings with
28 Mr. Corrigan?
29 A. None whatsoever.
30 158 Q. Do you know what sort of relations he had with members of
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 34
1 the RUC, your colleagues?
2 A. He had none with any of my colleagues other than I know the
3 late ACC Fitzsimons and he were very close and Fitzsimons
4 always spoke very highly of him.
5 159 Q. Now, when you say spoke very highly of Mr. Corrigan, I mean
6 is there something you heard yourself or...
7 A. Yeah. Well, Mr. Fitzsimons told me that he'd been very
8 helpful during the period of the Restorick murder.
9 160 Q. And what was the view about Mr. Corrigan dealing with the
10 IRA?
11 A. There's no real such view, there was just a personal view
12 that Mr. --
13 161 Q. Sorry, you misunderstand me. I mean in terms of his work,
14 I think the phrase might be that he tormented the IRA,
15 would that be fair?
16 A. Oh, yes, absolutely.
17 162 Q. Now, did you know a uniformed Sergeant called Leo Colton?
18 A. No.
19 163 Q. And did you know a uniformed Sergeant called Finbarr
20 Hickey, who was stationed ultimately in Hackballscross
21 station?
22 A. No.
23
24 MR. DILLON: Thank you very much.
25
26 CHAIRMAN: Any questions?
27
28 MR. DURACK: Just a few, if I may.
29
30
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 35
1 THE WITNESS WAS CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. DURACK AS FOLLOWS:
2
3 164 Q. MR. DURACK: My name is Michael Durack, sir, and I appear
4 for An Garda Síochána. Did you spend your whole career in
5 Special Branch?
6 A. Mostly, yeah.
7 165 Q. So you would have been aware of any information that was
8 available in the south Armagh area?
9 A. Not at all, no.
10 166 Q. Sorry?
11 A. No.
12 167 Q. Not alone or...
13 A. No.
14 168 Q. But you would have been -- sorry, maybe I'm
15 misunderstanding you. In your involvement in Special
16 Branch, were you involved in the area of intelligence?
17 A. Yes.
18 169 Q. Were you in part of the analysis of intelligence or were
19 you, if you like, at the coalface gathering it?
20 A. I was never an analyst.
21 170 Q. Never an analyst?
22 A. No.
23 171 Q. So your function then was...
24 A. The management of resources and overseeing the gathering of
25 intelligence.
26 172 Q. I see. And Mr. Dillon has referred to an 1985 intelligence
27 which had something to do with, I think, a named person
28 'keeping the boys happy'?
29 A. I have no knowledge of that.
30 173 Q. You have no knowledge of that. And you said you didn't
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 36
1 know Mr. Corrigan?
2 A. Never met him in my life.
3 174 Q. But as far as you're aware, he certainly had a good
4 relationship with Mr. Fitzsimons, whom I think had been
5 head of the Special Branch?
6 A. He did, yeah.
7 175 Q. And that he had found him particularly useful. And I take
8 it that if any question arose in relation to Mr. Corrigan,
9 that Mr. Fitzsimons would provide a reference for him?
10 A. I'm sure he would.
11 176 Q. Now, can you tell us just in relation to physical files,
12 how were they filed on individuals? How did they appear or
13 how were they maintained?
14 A. They were maintained at Headquarters, similar probably to
15 An Garda Síochána.
16 177 Q. The reason I ask the question is, that somebody has
17 described a file with a red ribbon. Does that sound like
18 anything you would be familiar with?
19 A. No.
20 178 Q. And it was suggested that this red-ribboned file was in
21 fact relating to Detective Sergeant Corrigan?
22 A. You would have to ask someone from Headquarters to answer
23 that question. I couldn't answer that, sorry.
24 179 Q. It's not an item that you're familiar with anyway?
25 A. No, no.
26 180 Q. And it's not a mode of file that you're familiar with?
27 A. No.
28 181 Q. Were you ever aware or did you ever hear from any of your
29 colleagues that there was a file on Mr. Corrigan?
30 A. Never.
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 37
1 182 Q. Did you ever receive any warnings from any of your
2 colleagues in Special Branch in relation to attending
3 meetings in Dundalk or elsewhere?
4 A. I only went to Dundalk I think once in all of my...
5 183 Q. Oh, you only went once, I see. But there wasn't or --
6 A. I'm talking about the garda station.
7 184 Q. Sorry?
8 A. I'm talking about the garda station.
9 185 Q. Yes, I see. On other occasions did you meet elsewhere than
10 in the garda station?
11 A. Yes.
12 186 Q. But the question, I suppose, that I was asking: Did you
13 ever receive any warnings from anybody in Special Branch,
14 any of your colleagues, to be careful of any individual in
15 Dundalk Garda Station?
16 A. No, but the station was acknowledged to be dangerous.
17 187 Q. I take it you mean because it's exposed?
18 A. Absolutely, yeah.
19 188 Q. And you'd be easily watched coming and going?
20 A. Yeah.
21 189 Q. And equally the -- you've told us that the south Armagh IRA
22 were particularly efficient, and I think that as well as
23 operating locally, I think they'd operated in Britain and
24 they's also been operating on the continent?
25 A. Absolutely.
26 190 Q. And I think given your description of them as a cohesive
27 unit, am I right in taking it that they had particularly
28 good intelligence and were good intelligence gatherers?
29 A. Absolutely.
30 191 Q. And I take it you and your colleagues were always very
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 38
1 conscious of the fact that intelligence would be gathered
2 and could be gathered. In relation to the incident,
3 murders of Mr. Buchanan and Mr. Breen, did you ever hear
4 any suggestion that there was a leak or a mole in Dundalk
5 Garda Station that led to this incident?
6 A. We certainly discussed the possibility of intelligence from
7 somewhere, but we never identified where the intelligence
8 came from.
9 192 Q. But I take it that equally, there is the equal possibility
10 that the intelligence was gathered either from people
11 following them from Newry down or following them on other
12 occasions or identifying the car?
13 A. It's a possibility, but there had to be intelligence to
14 configure that surveillance.
15 193 Q. And there was no substance ever found in a suggestion it
16 was coming from the garda station?
17 A. No.
18 194 Q. In relation to some named people we've been dealing with
19 earlier did you have anything to do with Mr. Fulton?
20 A. No, not directly, no.
21 195 Q. Did you know anything of him?
22 A. I did, yeah.
23 196 Q. What did you make of him?
24 A. He was useful to us at one stage, but then became -- we had
25 to basically dispense of his services.
26
27 MR. ROBINSON: Chairman, I wonder if I may raise a point, I
28 had some discussions with Mrs. Laverty senior counsel,
29 regarding any information relating to Mr. Fulton and I
30 wonder if you could possibly rise to have the matter dealt
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 39
1 with.
2
3 CHAIRMAN: You had discussions with Mrs. Laverty?
4
5 MR. DILLON: I'm completely out of the loop on this one --
6
7 MR. RAFFERTY: I have to say, Mr. Chairman, I apologise for
8 cutting across My Friend, but I actually appear for
9 Mr. Fulton and I certainly will have questions and I've
10 been kept out of the loop as well.
11
12 CHAIRMAN: Well you want me to rise for five minutes?
13
14 MR. ROBINSON: I'd be very much obliged Mr. Chairman, yes.
15
16 CHAIRMAN: The room has to be cleared first of all so the
17 witness can withdraw to a sitting room, so we'll clear the
18 room, please if you wouldn't mind.
19
20 THE TRIBUNAL ADJOURNED BRIEFLY FOLLOWS:
21
22 CHAIRMAN: Does anybody want to address me on...
23
24 MR. DILLON: No, Chairman, I can tell you once the witness
25 is in.
26
27 MR. ROBINSON: The matter has been resolved.
28
29 CHAIRMAN: Could strangers leave, please, while the room is
30 cleared while we reassemble with the witness in place,
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 40
1 please.
2
3 MR. DILLON: Yes, Chairman, I'm happy to be able to tell
4 you that we managed to resolve the issue and the
5 examination of the witness can continue. Maybe I should
6 say that the witness is anxious if at all possible to get
7 the next train, so if he could be finished around about one
8 o'clock it would be ideal. Of course I'm sure he will be
9 at your disposal for as long as necessary, but if we could
10 try and finish by one o'clock.
11
12 CHAIRMAN: We'll try finish by one.
13
14 THE WITNESS CONTINUED TO BE CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. DURACK AS
15 FOLLOWS:
16
17 197 Q. MR. DURACK: I was asking you the question you mentioned
18 Mr. Fulton and I was going to ask you then whether you
19 agreed with your colleague who gave evidence this morning
20 that he became an intelligence nuisance?
21 A. We disposed of his services so that's the way I'd put it.
22 198 Q. And I think just you mentioned that Mr. Corrigan had been
23 particularly helpful in relation to Steven Restorick, is
24 that right?
25 A. No, not Restorick, it was the murder of Captain Nairac.
26 199 Q. Oh Captain Nairac that was much earlier. Restorick was in
27 '97?
28 A. Yes, sorry about that.
29 200 Q. And I think it was in relation to the murder of Captain
30 Nairac the relationship between Mr. Fitzsimons and
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 41
1 Mr. Corrigan grew up?
2 A. Absolutely.
3 201 Q. I think it was maintained as well until his untimely death,
4 I think it was in June '94, the Mull of Kintyre...
5 A. Correct.
6 202 Q. Just in relation to files, I was asking you about a file on
7 Mr. Corrigan and a red ribbon has been described in
8 relation to it, is it possible that somebody who was
9 helpful to the RUC would have a file created dealing with
10 such assistance as they provided?
11 A. I honestly don't know.
12
13 MR. DURACK: You don't. Thank you very much indeed.
14
15 CHAIRMAN: Any other questions?
16
17 MR. LEHANE: No questions.
18
19 THE WITNESS WAS CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. RAFFERTY AS FOLLOWS:
20
21 203 Q. MR. RAFFERTY: In relation to, you refer to in your
22 evidence a man called Peter Keeley, can I confirm with you
23 that in the late 80s early 90s it would have been your
24 information that he was in the IRA?
25 A. Yes.
26 204 Q. And you would have known him as an IRA man?
27 A. He was in the IRA, I believe, in the late 80s.
28 205 Q. And through to the 90s?
29 A. I can't exactly say when.
30 206 Q. Well if were to suggest to you that there was already
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 42
1 evidence that he was arrested and interviewed under the
2 Prevention of Terrorism Act in the early 90s would that
3 assist you?
4 A. That is probably correct.
5 207 Q. And he was, during that time, an intelligence asset, is
6 that correct?
7 A. I can't exactly say when his relationship was terminate.
8 208 Q. No, I'm just asking you about his relationship before being
9 terminate?
10 A. Up until he was terminate, yes.
11 209 Q. And during that period of being an asset for I think it was
12 Special Branch or MI5 he gave good intelligence, is that
13 correct?
14 A. Initially.
15 210 Q. And that was a good intelligence in relation to IRA
16 activities?
17 A. Initially, yes.
18 211 Q. When you say initially I think he gave intelligence up
19 until approximately 1993/1994, does that jog your memory
20 about when he was terminate?
21 A. I can't exactly say when he was terminate.
22 212 Q. In general terms would it be fair to say informants who are
23 living and carrying out a dual existence as an IRA man and
24 an informant they have a limited shelf life, would that be
25 fair?
26 A. If they obey the instructions they can last much longer.
27 213 Q. Yes, if they follow orders from their handlers they may
28 last much longer?
29 A. Absolutely.
30 214 Q. But would you accept that it can become, for an informant,
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 43
1 a very uncomfortable life where you are giving
2 intelligence, trusting other people as to what happens with
3 that intelligence?
4 A. That probably depends on the individual.
5 215 Q. In any event would you accept that having been terminated
6 by Special Branch he was subsequently picked up by CID as
7 an informant in or about 1996?
8 A. I'm aware of that yes.
9 216 Q. You're aware of that?
10 A. Yes.
11 217 Q. And he acted as an informant right the way through for
12 several years after that?
13 A. I'm not sure when -- for how long.
14 218 Q. Right. In relation to Chief Detective Superintendent
15 Murray you worked with him for some considerable length of
16 time, is that correct?
17 A. I did, yes.
18 219 Q. What sort of man was he?
19 A. A very professional police officer.
20 220 Q. Totally honest?
21 A. I would say so, yeah.
22 221 Q. Didn't make things up?
23 A. I didn't think so.
24 222 Q. And if he said that there were technical noises on the day
25 of the murder of officers Buchanan and Breen, commencing at
26 around about midday, that wouldn't be something he'd make
27 up or say lightly in your experience of him?
28 A. I basically cannot recall that being discussed with me.
29 223 Q. I'm not asking you to recall that, but if this tribunal
30 accepts from Witness 27 that he was told about technical
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 44
1 noises starting late morning/midday of the day of the
2 murder that's not something Detective Chief Superintendent
3 Murray would say lightly, is it, from your knowledge of the
4 man?
5 A. I have no knowledge of that and I do not recall it.
6 224 Q. You don't recall it?
7 A. No.
8 225 Q. I'm just asking you from your knowledge of the man, from
9 your knowledge of Superintendent Murray is that the sort of
10 thing he would say lightly if it was said?
11 A. I do not recall that.
12 226 Q. It's not a matter of your recollection, it's your knowledge
13 of Chief Superintendent Murray?
14 A. I have told you that Chief Superintendent Murray was a very
15 professional officer.
16 227 Q. And if he said that it's likely to have been true, isn't
17 that correct?
18 A. I don't recall that.
19 228 Q. Why do you have such reticence about answering from your
20 knowledge simply of Superintendent Murray whether he would
21 say something fanciful like that?
22 A. I've no knowledge of it.
23
24 MR. RAFFERTY: Thank you very much.
25
26 CHAIRMAN: Any other questions?
27
28 MR. DILLON: Yes, Chairman.
29
30 THE WITNESS WAS RE-EXAMINED BY MR. DILLON AS FOLLOWS:
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 45
1 229 Q. MR. DILLON: Now, Witness 61, there is three matters if I
2 may. Do you know when Mr. Fulton first became an agent,
3 what year?
4 A. I honestly don't.
5 230 Q. Now the second thing is in relation to the murders of your
6 two colleagues do you know what intelligence the IRA had?
7 A. I don't.
8 231 Q. And lastly, just on a point I suppose of chronology, you
9 told us in the beginning you were working in the southwest
10 region and within Gough Barracks because it dealt with both
11 regions you then moved over to the southeast region, was
12 that late '88 early '89, is that correct?
13 A. I believe it was possibly late '88 early '89, again I'm not
14 a hundred percent sure.
15 232 Q. It was subsequently that you were promoted to the rank of
16 Superintendent?
17 A. Yes, September '89.
18
19 MR. DILLON: Thank you very much.
20
21 CHAIRMAN: Now may I ask members of the public kindly to
22 leave while the witness withdraws.
23
24 MR. DILLON: Thank you, Chairman. Before they do I should
25 mention we have one further witness for you at two o'clock
26 this afternoon.
27
28 CHAIRMAN: There is a witness at two o'clock, so after the
29 witness withdraws I'll rise until two o'clock.
30
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 46
1 THE WITNESS THEN WITHDREW.
2
3 THE TRIBUNAL ADJOURNED FOR LUNCH. 4
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Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 47
1 THE TRIBUNAL RESUMED AFTER LUNCH AS FOLLOWS:
2
3 MR. DILLON: Good afternoon, Chairman.
4
5 CHAIRMAN: Good afternoon.
6
7 MR. DILLON: We have one witness for this you this
8 afternoon who is Mr. Harmon Nesbitt and Mr. Nesbitt has not
9 sought anonymity.
10
11 CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you very much. 12
13
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Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 48
1 HARMON NESBITT, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS EXAMINED BY
2 MR. DILLON AS FOLLOWS:
3
4 233 Q. MR. DILLON: Now, Mr. Nesbitt, first of all thank you very
5 much for coming along, we greatly appreciate it. Your
6 career in the RUC I think began in 1970, is that right?
7 A. That's correct.
8 234 Q. And between then and 1983, which regions did you serve in?
9 A. Well, I served most of my time in what would be
10 'H' Division, started off in Newry, went to Newcastle, back
11 to Armagh and then went to Newry in 1983 as an Inspector.
12 235 Q. Very good. Can you pull the microphone a little closer to
13 you if you wouldn't mind or yourself to the microphone.
14 Thank you very much.
15 A. Okay.
16 236 Q. I think it was in 1983 that you went to Newry as a
17 uniformed Inspector and there you were promoted to the rank
18 of Chief Superintendent?
19 A. That's correct.
20 237 Q. And you were the Operations Chief for the Newry
21 subdivision?
22 A. That's correct.
23 238 Q. Now, let's deal, first of all, with the two gentlemen, the
24 two deceased, did you know either Harry Breen or Bob
25 Buchanan?
26 A. Yes, I knew both of them quite well.
27 239 Q. And could you tell us a little bit about Harry Breen, what
28 sort of a man was he?
29 A. Well, Harry Breen, I first met him whenever I joined the
30 RUC. He had been -- I had been a probationary constable
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 49
1 attending force training which he had been a Sergeant, so I
2 got to know him at that stage and I had served with him.
3 As I say that was the first time I met him. Bob Buchanan I
4 didn't meet until he arrived in Newry as the Border
5 Superintendent. So I knew Harry Breen quite well and got
6 to know Bob Buchanan quite well. Both of them were, to my
7 mind, gentlemen. Certainly Harry Breen had a -- was one of
8 those people that had a certain authority about him. He
9 knew even as a Sergeant he was somebody who had authority
10 and the respect of the everybody, and I would say certainly
11 from our own point of view he was one of those people that
12 you admired. Bob Buchanan for a different reason, Bob was
13 just a gentleman, friendly to everybody no matter who he
14 met and somebody I had a lot of time for. Certainly both
15 of them. Both of them as senior officers were respected
16 and admired by anybody they served with.
17 240 Q. In relation -- to deal with Bob Buchanan now for a moment,
18 professionally speaking, if he were to voice an opinion on
19 a particular matter, particularly if it were a critical
20 opinion, would he do that lightly or to your knowledge
21 would he base himself on some authority to do it or was he
22 a man to gossip?
23 A. No, no. I wouldn't have said so. Certainly, I mean he
24 would be one of those people who was very open minded. He
25 was inclined to ask you a question just to learn because he
26 probably respected the fact that someone like myself had
27 been in Newry for so long and knew my way around whereas he
28 was probably looking at it from a broader perspective than
29 himself and certainly would have been a good listener.
30 241 Q. Yes. Now, in your time in the RUC, you were on the
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 50
1 uniformed side, is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 242 Q. You never went over to the detective side, is that right?
4 A. Later on in my career I did, yes.
5 243 Q. Towards the end is that right?
6 A. Towards the end, yes.
7 244 Q. Now, when you were in Newry, did you have dealings with
8 members of the Garda Siochana?
9 A. Yes, quite a bit.
10 245 Q. And in what context did you have these meetings or these
11 contacts?
12 A. Well, as the Operations Chief Inspector part of my
13 responsibility was to plan and organise the operations for
14 the subdivision, and quite often that included maybe tying
15 in what was being done south of the border as well. So I
16 probably, differently from Bob, I would have been more
17 dealing with day-to-day issues whereas Bob would have been
18 looking at the broader issues, the strategic issues such as
19 the bigger operations whereas I was looking at day-to-day
20 tying in what the military were doing in south Armagh along
21 with what the guards were doing south of the border. So,
22 there was quite a bit of toing and froing, mostly probably
23 on the telephone by secure means and then maybe I would
24 have been up and down across the border myself maybe once a
25 fortnight to -- not for particular meetings but just to see
26 how the operations were going and to see what we could do
27 to make them better.
28 246 Q. You have referred there to telephone by secure means, our
29 understanding is that 1989, on the 20th of March 1989 in
30 any event, there wasn't a secure telephone line. Was there
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 51
1 some form of secure telephone line prior to that?
2 A. It was, if my memory serves me right, it was a fairly
3 rudimentary device, and I had one in my office that you
4 could use, but it was like talking on the radio. One
5 couldn't talk -- I got to the stage where after a while
6 where as I could use it quite adeptly because I was using
7 it quite often, but you had to -- I mean you both couldn't
8 be speaking at the same time. So you had to finish a
9 conversation, there is almost a pause and then somebody
10 else could speak, and then you had it coded every, I think
11 maybe once a week as well.
12 247 Q. So, effectively you couldn't be interrupted once you had
13 the floor so to speak, you had to finished --
14 A. No.
15 248 Q. -- the other caller had to wait for you to finish?
16 A. Yeah.
17 249 Q. Okay. Now, in terms of travelling backwards and forwards,
18 did you go by car?
19 A. Yes.
20 250 Q. And did you use your own car or staff car?
21 A. I used my own car.
22 251 Q. And did you go to Dundalk station?
23 A. Different stations, but it would be mostly Dundalk.
24 252 Q. Yes. If we can just focus on Dundalk. Did you go to
25 Dundalk on your own?
26 A. Yes, most of the time.
27 253 Q. Yes. And how did you arrange the meetings?
28 A. I didn't usually arrange them. If I had maybe a free
29 afternoon or something or at some stage I sort of said
30 right I am going to take a run down to Dundalk tomorrow I
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 52
1 would just have got into the car and gone down.
2 254 Q. So in effect you turned up unannounced?
3 A. Yeah.
4 255 Q. Yes. And when you arrived, where did you park your car?
5 A. Usually at the front of the station.
6 256 Q. And having announced yourself, did anybody ask you to put
7 the car in the back or did the car stay in the front?
8 A. I never really announced myself, I just, I think -- I
9 walked straight in and I knew where the office I was going
10 to, I would have probably walked in through the front door
11 of the Garda Station, it was quite a relaxed environment
12 not like any of the police stations in the North. And up
13 the stairs and into Brian McCabe's office or Frank Murray's
14 office.
15 257 Q. It seems that on day in question Harry Breen and Bob
16 Buchanan were able to get in up the stairs without any
17 interruption as it were?
18 A. No, no -- I mean the entrance to the station was such that
19 you could walk down anywhere. There was a very relaxed
20 atmosphere in Dundalk.
21 258 Q. Yes. So when you were in the station clearly you had your
22 meeting with whom ever you wanted to meet then you left and
23 went back?
24 A. That's right.
25 259 Q. By the same road?
26 A. No, I would always -- if I had gone down one way I would go
27 back another way.
28 260 Q. How did -- did you ever feel you were in any danger?
29 A. It was -- I was probably conscious of the fact that there
30 was a risk involved, but I reckoned that because I was --
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 53
1 there was no arrangement made and because I maybe varied my
2 route and I got to know quite a few of the roads across the
3 border, it was probably dissipated. Having said that,
4 there was always a certain amount of relief to maybe be
5 back in Newry.
6 261 Q. Yes, understandably, yes. And your policy, if I can put it
7 that way, of turning up unannounced, was there any basis
8 for that?
9 A. Well, no, I can't say I had any reason for doing it other
10 than the fact I was always aware that the terrorists in
11 south Armagh were fairly active and I was always conscious
12 of the fact that my car might have been seen going down.
13 Coming back was more of a concern to me than anything. So
14 it was more just in case somebody was watching the Garda
15 Station or something, but there is nothing I can say that
16 really other than just general security. I certainly was
17 very specifically briefed to not go down or to abide by
18 certain rules.
19 262 Q. Was there any sort of caution about revealing your
20 movements?
21 A. I wouldn't have said so. Well, apart from the fact that
22 you mean at south Armagh at that particular time and Newry
23 was probably one of the most dangerous areas in Northern
24 Ireland and the terrorists certainly very, very active. An
25 awful lot of police officers had lost their life during my
26 time there and a lot of it emanated from Dundalk and south
27 Armagh. For that reason my own assessment was that there
28 was a genuine threat and I had to be specifically aware.
29 263 Q. Um-hmm. You are aware of the Chairman's Terms of
30 Reference?
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 54
1 A. Yes.
2 264 Q. To inquire into the suggestion there may have been
3 collusion?
4 A. Yes.
5 265 Q. Did that thought ever cross your mind as a reason not to
6 announce your arrival in the station?
7 A. I was never specifically briefed on it. I suppose part of
8 my dealings with the guards was that I didn't want to put
9 them in a situation where maybe it comprised them. That
10 was in the back of my mind as well. Yes, there always was
11 -- I am not saying there was anything specific but I think
12 there was a hint that there may well have been collusion,
13 but I can't be specific that there was.
14 266 Q. But you had that sense, is that right?
15 A. Well, it was -- yeah. I mean, I can't -- don't ask me
16 where it came from. Just it was maybe general briefing or
17 whatever, but I can't -- it is something that is very
18 difficult to put your, to be specific about because I can
19 never remember actually being briefed specifically, but I
20 was always conscious of the fact that I am not -- I
21 wouldn't be inclined to say it was at Dundalk Garda Station
22 or wherever, I was more conscious of the fact that the
23 terrorists that worked in south Armagh and working in
24 Dundalk had probably got a lot of other people working on
25 the periphery rather than specific terrorist and I didn't
26 know who might have been keeping an eye on the Garda
27 Station to see who parked their car there or anything else,
28 so it was a general security concern to me rather than
29 anything else.
30 267 Q. In terms of guards whom you met do you remember a Michael
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 55
1 Staunton?
2 A. Yes I knew Michael, yes.
3 268 Q. And I think did you work with him on particular occasions?
4 A. Michael would have been one of the particular people I
5 would have met. He would have been Inspector at the time.
6 269 Q. I think you also came across -- just bear with me for a
7 second -- Dan Prenty is that right?
8 A. Yes, Dan I knew well.
9 270 Q. Frank Murray, whom you have mentioned?
10 A. Yes.
11 271 Q. And Brian McCabe?
12 A. And Brian McCabe, yes.
13 272 Q. I think you travelled on a number of occasions with Bob
14 Buchanan, isn't that right?
15 A. Most times I would be going with Bob it would have been to
16 meetings.
17 273 Q. And we heard that he travelled to Dundalk in his own car, a
18 red Ford Cavalier. Was that the car that he used when you
19 travelled with him?
20 A. Yeah.
21 274 Q. That was his personal car?
22 A. Yes.
23 275 Q. Yes. Mr. Mills could you put one of the sheets up, please,
24 thanks. Now, what date is that? Now, I think if you look
25 at entry for the 8th of November '88 "Duty to Dundalk,
26 Newry, Bessbrook, Chief Inspector Nesbitt" and then "duty
27 to Monaghan". It seems that you went with Bob Buchanan
28 that day, isn't that right?
29 A. Yes.
30 276 Q. And if we could have the next sheet, please, Mr. Mills.
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 56
1 The first entry there is the 2nd of February, 1988. "Duty
2 with -- to Bessbrook re clearance of Kilnasaggart bridge.
3 Duties with Chief Inspector Nesbitt to Dromad Garda
4 Station. Liaison with Chief Superintendent Nolan and
5 Superintendent Pat Tierney." Then there is the Garda
6 Border Superintendents meeting with Gardaí at Armagh.
7
8 MR. DURACK: I assume this is Mr. Buchanan's diary.
9
10 MR. DILLON: This is Mr. Buchanan's diary, yes.
11 277 Q. Then we have Superintendent Curran in Monaghan apparently
12 he visited. Now, Tom Curran did you meet Tom Curran?
13 A. Yeah, I did indeed.
14 278 Q. Was he one of your business contacts, if I can put it that
15 way, one your professional contacts?
16 A. Tom, was he not the Divisional Commander? He was the Chief
17 Superintendent.
18 279 Q. He was Superintendent?
19 A. Superintendent?
20 280 Q. Superintendent, yes, yes.
21 A. Most of the people I would have been seeing would have been
22 Frank Murray or Brian McCabe. I hadn't -- I didn't know
23 Tom as well as Brian, probably. Brian was quite an affable
24 sort of character, albeit quite serious as well, but he and
25 I got on quite well.
26 281 Q. And what did you make of Tom Curran?
27 A. I quite liked him. I mean, I had no difficulty working
28 with him. I always found him to be open and professional.
29 282 Q. Very good. Now, moving on to 1989. Was there any
30 suggestion of a heightened threat in the period leading up
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 57
1 to the 20th of March, 1989?
2 A. Not that I am aware of. Threats in Newry were at that time
3 were coming and going quite a bit. I mean, I think there
4 might have been an indication that -- I think if my memory
5 serves me right that at some stage there was a suspicion
6 that there was a target, that the IRA had a target in south
7 Armagh and the threat would have gone up or down and I
8 always formed, sort of got the impression that if it ever
9 appeared either that they had got their target wrong or the
10 target hadn't turned up. But, yes, certainly there was
11 occasion when it either went up or down. I can't remember
12 specifically at that particular time that the threat had
13 gone.
14 283 Q. There is this information, to put it at its broadest, that
15 there is a target but unknown target, are any steps taken
16 by people to heighten their personal security or any steps
17 taken of that nature?
18 A. I mean, apart from -- I mean, I was never told not to go
19 down, but having said that, I think everybody knew that the
20 way I was doing it there was no difficulty with it because
21 there was no -- but if I was going to a meeting that would
22 have been arranged, it was a different kettle of fish.
23 284 Q. Yes. Now, the 20th of March was a Monday, the 20th of
24 March, 1989, I should say, was a Monday. I think that
25 previous weekend you were at home and you received a visit
26 from Bob Buchanan?
27 A. No, Bob and I, we shared weekend duty officers.
28 285 Q. Yes.
29 A. And I had been --
30 286 Q. I am very sorry. I misread something my apologies.
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 58
1 A. Bob and I, there was a duty officer system working, there
2 was always a Superintendent and Chief Inspector on duty.
3 The Chief Inspector only covered the Saturday and the
4 Superintendent covered the Saturday and the Sunday. And on
5 the Saturday, normally I wouldn't have gone to Armagh
6 because Bob would have been there, Bob would have usually
7 paid a visit to Newry to me on the Saturday to see how
8 things were in Newry and just to have a general chat. So
9 that Saturday, yes, he did arrive in the afternoon. Now,
10 if I had been in the office he would have stopped in, if
11 not he would have probably gone into the Communications
12 Room to see where I was, and if I wasn't too far away I
13 probably would have come back to see him. On that
14 particular Saturday, yes, he did, I was in the office and
15 he stopped with me for about an hour or an hour and a half.
16 287 Q. What sort of chat did you have?
17 A. Usually it was just a general chat. It was never anything
18 specific, he was just more or less interested in what was
19 happening in the subdivision. I suppose it was usually
20 fairly relaxed on a Saturday and the two of us had probably
21 time just to chat about things in general, everything and
22 anything. And I know that particular Saturday, I was
23 actually reminded about it, but he did mention there was
24 some sort of operation coming up that he would have been
25 trying to arrange with the guards involving 'Slab' Murphy's
26 premises. But there was no -- from my point of view, it
27 was just a general chat because he wouldn't have -- we
28 normally would chat in general because he wouldn't have
29 involved me in the specific operation because he would have
30 known that whenever the decision was made to either mount
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 59
1 an operation, then they would come to me and say, "Look,
2 Harmon, we want to mount this operation, can you do so?"
3 At that stage it would have been just generally chatting
4 about the operation, but nothing -- it was more a
5 conversation in passing about it.
6 288 Q. No, I understand that. Did he say anything to you about
7 his plans for the following week?
8 A. Well, I knew, if memory serves me right, I knew that Monday
9 he had planned to go down across the border to talk about
10 it.
11 289 Q. So, he said to you during the weekend that I plan to go to
12 Dundalk, is that right?
13 A. Yeah.
14 290 Q. Did he tell you anything about those plans?
15 A. No.
16 291 Q. Did he tell you anything about whether any meeting had been
17 arranged or what status were the plans?
18 A. I wasn't -- well, other than the fact that he had planned
19 to go down, there was no specific details about when he was
20 going, who he was meeting, or anything else. It was just a
21 general chat about the operation as such.
22 292 Q. Did he tell you who was going to be travelling with him to
23 Dundalk?
24 A. I don't think he did. He may have, but I can't remember
25 that he did. Although, having said that, Bob was liaison
26 and I don't think Bob would have gone down to discuss an
27 operation per se without having the likes of Harry Breen
28 with him, because Harry would have been the operational
29 command and would be the one who would be making the
30 decision. Bob wouldn't have been making the decision.
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 60
1 That was part of his role as the middle man.
2 293 Q. Now, you are quite clear that Bob Buchanan told you that
3 weekend that he was going go to Dundalk?
4 A. Yeah.
5 294 Q. And did he say what day of the week he was going to
6 Dundalk?
7 A. I think he said it was the Monday.
8 295 Q. Now, the Chairman has heard this evidence, I don't have the
9 transcript with me but just bear with me, that namely it
10 was on Monday the 20th that Harry Breen told his Staff
11 Officer that he, Harry Breen, was due to go to Dundalk?
12 A. Could be.
13 296 Q. And he asked his Staff Officer to contact Bob Buchanan to
14 see if Bob Buchanan was prepared to go with him?
15 A. Well, that would probably make sense in so much as I
16 certainly knew that Bob would have been going down at that
17 stage and I think that Bob sort of, he would have been
18 looking at Monday but he wasn't specific about who he was
19 going with or what the plans were. Certainly, we talked in
20 general terms about the operation, but there was nothing
21 specific mentioned.
22 297 Q. Did he say anything to you about a time of appointment?
23 A. No.
24 298 Q. Or who he was going meet in Dundalk?
25 A. No.
26 299 Q. So, is it the case that this was maybe an expectation on
27 his part that he was going Dundalk?
28 A. Oh, I think it was, yeah.
29 MR. DILLON: Thank you.
30
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 61
1 CHAIRMAN: Any questions?
2
3 THE WITNESS WAS CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. McGUINNESS AS
4 FOLLOWS:
5
6 300 Q. MR. McGUINNESS: Yes, thank you. Good afternoon
7 Mr. Nesbitt. I am Mr. McGuinness I appear for An Garda
8 Síochána. Could I just ask you firstly about the extent of
9 your district, the Newry subdivision. What did that cover
10 geographically?
11 A. It covered Newry. Well Newry station area, Bessbrook,
12 Forkhill, Crossmaglen, Newton Hamilton, and Warren Point
13 and there were two stations in Newry, Downshire Road and
14 Corry Square.
15 301 Q. So effectively taking in all of Armagh and a small portion
16 of south Down?
17 A. Yeah, yeah.
18 302 Q. And it any greater than that?
19 A. Well it didn't cover Armagh itself, it stopped sort of
20 halfway between Newry and Market Hill.
21 303 Q. And it covered the area down to the border?
22 A. That's right.
23 304 Q. On the way down to Dundalk?
24 A. That's correct.
25 305 Q. And Jonesboro?
26 A. Um-hmm.
27 306 Q. And all of the other adjacent bits of south Armagh?
28 A. Um-hmm, yeah.
29 307 Q. And you worked in uniform all the time at this time that we
30 are talking about?
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 62
1 A. I had been a Uniformed Inspector, Section Inspector in
2 Newry and then I had been -- after the mortar attack they
3 changed the roles and increased the establishment and I was
4 made an Inspector Operations in charge of Newry and then I
5 was promoted Chief Superintendent and I took over the
6 operations for the whole of the subdivision, so I had been
7 in uniform for something like -- I had been a constable
8 there in 1970 and '71 and then back again for seven years
9 during the '80s.
10 308 Q. You would have been well-known obviously?
11 A. Yeah, yeah.
12 309 Q. What was your experience of the IRA and their intelligence
13 gathering?
14 A. Well, the answer is, I don't know, but they certainly were
15 a very -- come across as very professional. Professional
16 -- it is wrong to say professional, it gives them credit
17 they don't deserve, but dedicated and committed to what
18 they were doing and it was a full-time job for them, as my
19 job was a full-time job, their job was a full-time job.
20 They were terrorists and that is all they lived, sleep,
21 eat, drink and terrorism that is the basis that you had to
22 work on in Newry because to give them any sort of latitude
23 at all meant that you were leaving yourself open to risk.
24 You had to just work on the basis that they were there to
25 kill you and you just didn't take any chances.
26 310 Q. Yes. And did you become aware of the late Mr. Eamon
27 Collins as a member of the IRA?
28 A. Yes.
29 311 Q. And he was a very active member by his own account?
30 A. Yes, he was.
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 63
1 312 Q. And he had been a Customs Officer in the United Kingdom
2 Customs Service?
3 A. That's right, yes.
4 313 Q. Did you ever become aware of the fact that he claimed there
5 was a telephone engineer in the BT area in Newry with PIRA
6 links?
7 A. There could have been. I don't remember now to be honest.
8 314 Q. Okay. How many times would you have travelled up and down
9 to Dundalk yourself?
10 A. I would imagine about once a fortnight.
11 315 Q. And did you use your own car or did you take --
12 A. Yes, I used my own car.
13 316 Q. Every time?
14 A. Um-hmm.
15 317 Q. And did you have concern at any stage in your career that
16 the IRA might have been monitoring your movements or...
17 A. No specific concern, just maybe a general concern. I know
18 certainly whenever you were leaving either Newry station or
19 any of the stations you are always conscious about who was
20 hanging about. You had to be.
21 318 Q. Yes. I mean, Newry station at that time was in the centre
22 of the town?
23 A. It was, yeah.
24 319 Q. And if you were going to or coming from it you had to drive
25 in or out?
26 A. Yes.
27 320 Q. And obviously anyone doing that could be easily observed?
28 A. Oh yeah, yeah.
29 321 Q. And certainly from your point of view, as I understand your
30 evidence, that you would be concerned to keep an eye on who
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 64
1 might be watching?
2 A. Yeah, yeah.
3 322 Q. As you were coming or going?
4 A. Yeah.
5 323 Q. You've -- Mr. Dillon has referred you to Superintendent
6 Buchanan's journal, with reference to visits that you made
7 with him south of the border. I think the topic of the
8 discussion on at least one occasion was the attack on the
9 Kilnasaggart Bridge?
10 A. It could have been. Most of the meetings that I would have
11 gone south with Bob were usually meetings that were
12 organised and they would be more -- I would have been going
13 down for my own local knowledge of Newry. But there were
14 very few of them that went down that weren't being catered
15 for, in other words that they didn't know we were coming.
16 And quite of few of them we would have been escorted. I
17 can't remember whether on that particular occasion we were
18 escorted or not.
19 324 Q. Is it correct or can you confirm to the Tribunal that at
20 about this point in time, December to February March,
21 December '88 to February/March '89 there were attacks on
22 the bridge and a number of incidents and explosions?
23 A. Oh yeah. The rail line at that period of time, if I
24 remember right, had been close for a considerable length of
25 time and there had been a series of devices. We might have
26 cleared one and then there would be another one. I mean it
27 was a bone of contention certainly at that time.
28 325 Q. Can I ask you for your opinion as to why the IRA were doing
29 that; was it simply a disruptive operation or were they
30 trying to entice the military to come to the scene?
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1 A. I would say probably a number of reasons; one was they were
2 trying to draw the army into a come on situation where they
3 would have secondary devices and sometimes three and four
4 devices to try and catch A2 out. The other one would have
5 been the economical aspect to it as well and the fact that
6 they were closing a cross border rail and that had an
7 economical effect and as well it had a big disruptive
8 effect for the local community between Newry and Dundalk
9 because there is a big movement of people, there was at
10 that time certainly, a big movement of people who worked
11 south of the border and vice-versa and well as that too,
12 you would have had a lot of shoppers because of the
13 disparity between the pound and the euro at that time was
14 such that it would encourage, I mean people getting petrol
15 were going down south getting it cheaper there than they
16 were in the north. So, there was a lot of issues at that
17 time and certainly it was -- it drew a lot of media
18 attention as well.
19 326 Q. Yes. Do you recall any discussion with Superintendent
20 Buchanan over whether or what operations the army might be
21 putting in place to protect the bridge?
22 A. Oh, yes, we would have been discussing -- certainly
23 whenever I would have known what the army were doing in
24 south Armagh and Bob talking to me, I could have told him
25 what the plans were, when they planned to carry out a
26 clearance or whatever, and how we were going to manage it,
27 because I would have been -- I would have known the
28 specifics of the operation and known when maybe they were
29 planning to do it or they have been penciled in to do it or
30 whatever and then again there would also have been the
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 66
1 discussion in relation to well okay, once we have got this
2 in place what are we going to do to maybe try and keep it
3 open, do we need to maybe involve the guards and Bob would
4 have maybe made a formal request to them. Because in Bob's
5 dealings with the guards -- my dealings with them would be
6 informal. I wouldn't necessarily -- I would be asking them
7 we are doing an operation in this area could you mount
8 another operation in another area so we are trying to
9 coordinate, whereas Bob would have been more, his operation
10 would have been more on a formal basis where he would
11 specifically ask the guards to put guards in a particular
12 area at a particular time because we wanted to mount an
13 operation north of the border that was going to be very
14 overt whereas I might have been arranging just maybe a low
15 key VCP or a small rummage search in a particular area and
16 maybe I didn't want, maybe I wanted the guards south of the
17 border. I might have wanted them in a different area.
18 327 Q. But the Tribunal have some evidence that the army were over
19 a period of a couple of weeks at least doing some -- would
20 appear to be covert surveillance on the bridge, were you
21 aware of that at the time?
22 A. I wouldn't necessarily have been aware of the covert
23 activities. I certainly -- if -- a lot of the OPs, if I
24 remember right the OPs would have a good view of the
25 railway line, that's the towers.
26 328 Q. The towers?
27 A. The towers would have had a good view of the railway line.
28 I forget which one was overlooking Kilnasaggart. Now they
29 may have -- certainly the army used to put an odd patrol
30 maybe into a particular area and they would have lain up
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 67
1 for a while, but I would have been -- I wouldn't
2 necessarily have been aware of that because that would have
3 been done as a patrol decision at a particular time, and it
4 would not necessarily have necessitated an out of bounds
5 area whereas if you are going to put in an observation
6 point outside what I would have been, you could say
7 covertly, that would have been arranged through Special
8 Branch out of bounds areas and all the rest and I wouldn't
9 necessarily have been involved in that other than the fact
10 that an area was going out of bounds for some reason.
11 329 Q. But if it wasn't a patrol as it were, which would be a
12 temporary and sort of short-term measure, if there was an
13 action conducted over a week or more, as I understand it,
14 you wouldn't necessarily be involved in the planning of
15 that or know the details of it?
16 A. No.
17 330 Q. But you would know that it was out of bounds?
18 A. Yes.
19 331 Q. And would you have any understanding of the reason as to
20 why it was out of bounds?
21 A. No, not necessarily.
22 332 Q. Well, when you met Bob Buchanan on the Saturday afternoon,
23 it would appear that the road, the Edenappa Road, was out
24 of bounds, is that right?
25 A. It was, yes. In fact there was large swathes of south
26 Armagh were out of bounds because of the covert activity
27 that was going on inside those areas and I am not -- there
28 was no -- I mean we wouldn't necessarily have ignored them
29 but if there was a patrol going into that area on occasion
30 we might have gone to Special Branch and said look, there
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 68
1 has been an accident on the Kilnasaggart Road, we are going
2 to have to send a patrol in to investigate the accident,
3 then they would have said yes that is okay or no leave it.
4 So, there were occasions whenever they were out of bounds
5 areas but we had been given permission to go in for
6 example, a burglary had been committed or maybe a robbery
7 or something.
8 333 Q. Yes. I was going to ask you the question that you
9 partially answered, it wasn't simply the Edenappa Road that
10 was out of bounds, there was a larger area?
11 A. There was, yeah. If my memory reserves me right it was
12 almost like a rectangle across that area, now I don't know
13 why.
14 334 Q. Yes. Do you know who made the decision to put that out of
15 bounds?
16 A. No, I would have just seen the MSX coming out saying that
17 the following area is out of bounds.
18 335 Q. Yes. Can you say whether Superintendent Buchanan knew that
19 it was out of bounds?
20 A. Oh he would have, yes.
21 336 Q. And you are expressing that very confidently that he would
22 have. On what basis would he have known?
23 A. Because it would be marked on the maps in the Ops Room in
24 Newry and if I remember right Bob -- Bob would have
25 certainly whenever he would have been down would have been
26 looking to see where the out of bounds were. Bob would
27 have been particular about that sort of thing.
28 337 Q. May the Tribunal take it that if he was going and planning
29 a trip to Dundalk and was leaving on the Monday morning,
30 that he would check the status of the road before he left?
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 69
1 A. Well, Harry Breen would have done the same because he had a
2 map in his office which showed the out of bounds areas as
3 well, if I remember right. But yes, they would have
4 because there was a summary of the out of bounds areas went
5 out every morning and they would have been in their in-tray
6 and I think Bob would have been on the distribution list.
7 338 Q. Obviously it would have been important to make officers
8 aware of it as soon as possible and that was done,
9 presumably?
10 A. Yeah, yeah.
11 339 Q. In terms of the choice of road, is there any possibility
12 that Superintendent Breen and -- Sorry, Superintendent
13 Buchanan and Chief Superintendent Breen took the road back,
14 the Edenappa Road, back to look at the bridge?
15 A. I would doubt it. I would think -- because there would be
16 no advantage in them doing so. And Bob wasn't fool hardy.
17 He wouldn't have done -- no, I would say no he wouldn't
18 have.
19 340 Q. Now you mentioned when we were discussing the out of bounds
20 issue and the Edenappa Road checkpoints, in your
21 experience, did the IRA operate checkpoints in and around
22 that area about the time that we are talking about, sort of
23 late '88, early '89?
24 A. They certainly -- they had the capacity. I mean certainly
25 would you have got information maybe afterwards that they
26 had an illegal VCP in a particular area for a particular
27 period of time. Now, what they were doing, I don't know.
28 But yes, it was all over south Armagh. In south Armagh I
29 mean we didn't have the freedom of movement that they had.
30 And sometimes they were trying to maybe draw us into
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 70
1 situations and part of it could have been setting up the
2 likes of an illegal VCP.
3 341 Q. Were you involved in the investigation of the murders after
4 they occurred?
5 A. Well, I was the Operations Chief Inspector, I had to
6 organise the follow up operations. Albeit on the Monday
7 that it happened I was actually off that day.
8 342 Q. Right. And can I ask you, your opinion. Is it probable or
9 is it indisputable that the IRA would have known
10 Superintendent Buchanan's identity and that of his car?
11 A. I would have said there is a reasonable -- I don't know. I
12 would have said there was a reasonable chance that they
13 would have known all of us, any of us. It would be very
14 naive of me to say that they didn't know me and didn't know
15 -- and I know certainly Harry Breen had a fairly high
16 profile as well because he would have been more the face of
17 Armagh division or 'H' Division as it was. Bob would have
18 been more low key personality than Harry would have been,
19 but certainly --
20 343 Q. But you'd agree with me, would you, that it would be
21 impossible to believe that the IRA didn't know who the
22 Border Superintendents were?
23 A. Certainly we all worked on the basis that they knew who we
24 were.
25 344 Q. Yes. And would you agree me that they would be perhaps
26 anxious to obtain information or intelligence relating to
27 his pattern of movements if they could discern a pattern?
28 A. Oh yeah, yeah.
29 345 Q. In terms of your habit, I know you have told the Chairman
30 that you would come down one way and go back another, could
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 71
1 you just give an example of the ways you would come down
2 and the ways you would then go back?
3 A. I would probably have gone down the main road, more because
4 of the volume of traffic but I am not too sure I would have
5 come back the main road. Usually whenever you left Dundalk
6 you could have taken any of the roads to the left and then
7 that gave you -- south Armagh the roads more or less fan
8 out, so you could have taken maybe any one of three or four
9 different roads that sort of branch off the main Dundalk to
10 Newry road. I would sometimes come back via
11 Newtownhamilton, sometimes come back the Edenappa Road. I
12 got to know south Armagh quite well myself. I would say
13 Bob would have known it quite well. I know certainly we
14 would have -- even part of the conversation was I remember
15 him asking me one time about my going up and down and I
16 told him I would go down one way and come back another way
17 and the different routes that I had used. So I think even
18 Bob would have had a fairly reasonable knowledge of the
19 roads back as well.
20 346 Q. Yes. Well, I mean, the evidence is there before the
21 Tribunal of his career but also of his extensive travelling
22 in the course of his duties as a Border Superintendent and
23 it would be an injustice to him to think that he didn't
24 know the roads he was travelling on?
25 A. Yeah.
26 347 Q. And in terms of the dangers of the Edenappa Road or any
27 other road, would you agree with me that it would be wrong
28 to be critical of him for choosing that road that day,
29 because he could have gone a number of different routes?
30 A. Yeah.
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 72
1 348 Q. And he obviously made his own decision based upon what he
2 thought was proper at the time?
3 A. Yeah.
4 349 Q. I mean, as I understand it, there are or were no
5 instruction to you as to how to come or go back across the
6 border?
7 A. No.
8 350 Q. Either in terms of cars, routes, personnel or anything
9 else?
10 A. I mean, we had to -- I mean part of the job was liaising
11 with the guards. It was very important and a lot of it was
12 built on personal relationships and you couldn't do that
13 over the phone. And to sit down in somebody's office and
14 have a cup of coffee with them or a cup of tea with them,
15 it was very effective whereas I personally never felt that
16 whenever you pick up the phone and speak to somebody,
17 especially when you maybe speaking in stilted language, you
18 become very formal and I am not so sure that you really get
19 what you are looking for. They say oh yes we'll do that,
20 but in the back of your mind is they don't know why I want
21 it, why it is important, why I am asking, whereas the
22 personal contact, it meant that whenever there was an
23 emergency I could pick up the phone and they knew my voice
24 and things were done and Bob would have been exactly the
25 same. The personal contact was important. It would have
26 been easy for somebody to turn around and say to us no I
27 don't want you to go across the border, but that would have
28 tied our hands because the Guards did play an important
29 part in the operations that we were arranging and they
30 certainly did their part in helping to thwart the terrorist
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 73
1 active threat that there was.
2 351 Q. Yes. Did you -- when you met Superintendent Buchanan on
3 Saturday afternoon, did he make any reference to having had
4 a meeting with ACC Rural East or Witness 27, the previous
5 Thursday, two days before that?
6 A. He may have. He may have but I can't remember.
7 352 Q. Yes. But there were certainly no question when you met him
8 that he had been ordered not go across the border or had
9 given an undertaking not to go across the border?
10 A. No.
11 353 Q. Now, in terms of the nature of the operation that he was
12 going down to discuss, I understand from you that, you
13 know, he was talking in a informal sort of general way
14 about it but you understood that to be the purpose of the
15 visit?
16 A. Yeah.
17 354 Q. And that the visit was to take place on Monday in his mind?
18 A. Yeah, I think I mean, he was working on that basis but
19 Monday wouldn't have been set in concrete but I think
20 Monday he was hoping to --
21 355 Q. He was hoping to do that?
22 A. Yes.
23 356 Q. And you don't know how or who he had spoken to in relation
24 to that visit at that point?
25 A. He may have, but I can't remember.
26 357 Q. All right. Was his purpose in informing you of that to as
27 it were to put you on notice that there might be a follow
28 on operation?
29 A. That would have been part of it but I think part of it
30 would have been to see what I -- my thinking would have
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 74
1 been on it because it would have given -- you mean from a
2 resource point of view, a uniform resource, he would have
3 known that I would have known what the capabilities were
4 for example, that week or in two week's time, what the
5 military could have done, what with we could have done,
6 what resources he may have required, and maybe give him a
7 feel for the operation that they were talking about
8 mounting. In other words, that whenever he was talking to
9 the guards he might give him a bit more knowledge because I
10 had a more intimate knowledge of that area than he or Harry
11 Breen would have had.
12 358 Q. In terms of your involvement in the operation in the
13 investigation of the murders subsequently, did you reach a
14 conclusion as to whether this had been well planned and
15 planned in advance of the murders on the Monday?
16 A. I certainly got the impression that it had been a well
17 planned operation, that hadn't been -- I think -- certainly
18 the impression I got from some of the debriefs that I had
19 attended, that there may well have been -- the threat that
20 had been going up and down for the months had been in
21 actual fact somebody targeting Bob Buchanan. And he had
22 maybe, as I've said, maybe gone down one road and come back
23 a different road but they hadn't got that road covered.
24 But I certainly got the impression that there was a lot of
25 manpower, IRA manpower put in place to mount the operation.
26 That's the impression I got. And that was from general
27 conversation with different people.
28 359 Q. Yes. And that it wasn't, therefore, mounted the day?
29 A. Well, I think it might have been mounted on the day, but I
30 think that they maybe had the capability --
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 75
1 360 Q. But not planned, obviously?
2 A. Not planned on the day, but I think that maybe they had the
3 capabilities to mount the operation at short notice, and
4 that's the impression I got.
5 361 Q. Yes. Did you visit the scene of the murders --
6 A. I did, yes.
7 362 Q. -- in the aftermath?
8 A. Um-hmm.
9 363 Q. And did you become aware of some evidence that tended to
10 suggest that a van had deposited a number of armed men at
11 2:30 in the afternoon at the site of the murders?
12 A. It could be right. I mean, I have no --
13 364 Q. You have no recollection specifically of it?
14 A. Yeah, because I'd probably be lying to you if I said that I
15 can specifically remember it, but I mean I certainly
16 remember from the operation that there had been a lot of
17 planning put into it. I didn't get involved in the --
18 whenever it come to it in the actual fact the investigation
19 as such, because I was more interested in planning, getting
20 people into place to protect the scene, the follow-up
21 searches and all that there, so I would have -- even
22 thought I would known in general terms, but my -- I'd have
23 been too busy trying to arrange helicopters, trying to
24 arrange relief of police, soldiers and one thing and
25 another in the area to actually get involved and know a
26 great deal about the specific investigation of the murder.
27 365 Q. Yes. There is some evidence from a civilian witness that
28 as he was approaching the scene, in what must be very few
29 minutes after the actual murders, that he saw helicopters
30 as he was driving towards the scene but before he had
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 76
1 reached the scene. Did you have any report of helicopters
2 in that area?
3 A. Bestbrook Mill at one stage was the busiest heliport in
4 western Europe. And I think it would be unrealistic to say
5 that there were no helicopters in that area, because the
6 helicopters were constantly flying to replenish the likes
7 of the hilltop sites. And that was going from
8 early-morning until late at night. So, a helicopter in the
9 area would not have been out of place.
10 366 Q. Yes. You may not have been able to answer this question,
11 but how far is either Bessbrook or the nearest tower from
12 the sort of murder site, in terms of miles?
13 A. I'd need to see a map, I can't really -- it's not that far.
14 It's not that far.
15 367 Q. Now, Bob Buchanan, did he ever say anything to you about
16 any guard about whom he had any concerns?
17 A. No.
18 368 Q. Were you ever informed by RUC Special Branch or anyone else
19 in the RUC about any concerns that they might have had?
20 A. No.
21 369 Q. At any stage?
22 A. No.
23 370 Q. Would you expect to have been told by your colleagues in
24 the RUC if there was concern that there was an IRA mole in
25 Dundalk Garda Station?
26 A. If there had been a specific need for me to know, yes, I
27 would have been briefed. But the work that I was involved
28 in, I would have a lot of -- I would have liaised a lot
29 with Special Branch, but that was more in relation to
30 operations and threats. Specific personalities very seldom
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 77
1 ever come into it. I mean, I may -- the name "Corrigan"
2 may have been mentioned to me, but I can't remember -- it
3 certainly was mentioned, but I can't remember whether it
4 was before or after the incident, but certainly I was aware
5 of an Owen Corrigan in Dundalk Garda Station, but I was
6 never specifically briefed to be alert to a threat or a
7 potential or possible threat from him.
8 371 Q. But you can't, as I understand your evidence, you can't say
9 when you heard that name even?
10 A. No.
11 372 Q. But would you not be personally concerned if you were in
12 fact in the habit of going down to Dundalk yourself and
13 your colleagues seemed to have some information or belief
14 to put a clad of suspicion over some member down there?
15 A. As I said earlier, I think from my point of view and I
16 would say from Bob's point of view, you left any police
17 station in Newry subdivision to go anywhere you always felt
18 that there was somebody watching or you worked in your mind
19 that there is somebody watching what I'm doing and
20 potentially targeting me, because Newry was constantly
21 being targeted. I know even going down to Dundalk, leaving
22 the station in Dundalk, I would never have left the station
23 and come out the same way. I would have maybe gone a
24 circuitous route through Dundalk, because for the very same
25 reason, because it was unreasonable to assume that they
26 weren't watching it as well for people like myself going
27 down because they would have known that we were -- we
28 certainly visited the station quite often.
29 373 Q. Yes.
30 A. If you can imagine, I went down maybe once a fortnight.
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 78
1 Bob, I don't know how often he was going down. And there
2 were other people going down as well, I'm quite sure. I
3 know certainly my Operational Inspector in Bessbrook would
4 have been going down. So, I am not saying there was a big
5 movement of, certainly, police officers going to Dundalk,
6 but Dundalk would have been one of the stations that would
7 have been a fairly popular venue and the personal contact
8 was very important to us. So, it is not unreasonable to
9 assume that the IRA knew that and were watching it as well.
10 If they had somebody in the police station or the garda
11 station, that was a bonus to them. But I was -- I mean, as
12 I say, my concern was that I'm going to Dundalk here and I
13 wasn't looking specifically for an individual because I
14 wouldn't necessarily have known the individuals. I knew,
15 certainly, the likes of the Brian McCabe and Dan Prenty and
16 Michael Staunton and various other guards, but that's the
17 only ones I would have known. So, if I had met Owen
18 Corrigan or any of them in the -- I wouldn't have known.
19 It wouldn't have registered with me that that's who it was
20 and to be alert, that I had to be alert. So, me knowing
21 really wasn't going to make me any more cautious because I
22 was concerned --
23 374 Q. In any event?
24 A. -- in any event, yeah.
25 375 Q. Having told the Tribunal what you have told the Tribunal
26 about your opinion of the manpower and the length of time
27 that the IRA put into planning this and their sightings of
28 Superintendent Buchanan's car, would you agree with me that
29 the IRA wouldn't have needed a tip-off from within the
30 Garda Station if they had been paying such close attention
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 79
1 to him and intended to murder him?
2 A. If they got lucky on that particular day and spotted his
3 car, yes, they wouldn't have needed a tip-off. Certainly a
4 tip-off would have been an advantage to them and it would
5 have given them more time, but as I say I can't say they
6 were specifically tipped off.
7 376 Q. Indeed, they could have followed his car in the north
8 before he came across?
9 A. Oh, yeah, yeah.
10 377 Q. Were you involved in the prosecution of cases in the
11 courts?
12 A. What way now?
13 378 Q. Following successful investigations were you in charge of
14 prosecutions or in charge of investigations that led to
15 convictions?
16 A. I had been a court prosecutor as Inspector in Newry
17 courthouse, but that was only in the Magistrate's court.
18 But, no, my role would have been as an Operational Chief
19 Inspector planning the operations and organising the
20 operations, supervising them, writing operational orders,
21 but not anything than that.
22 379 Q. I mean, obviously at some stage under the Prevention of
23 Terrorism Act it was made an offence to be in possession of
24 information likely to be of use to terrorists. Was that
25 offence prosecuted, in your experience, in the area that
26 you were responsible for?
27 A. Not that I am aware of.
28 380 Q. Are you aware of the sort of level of convictions or the
29 number of convictions in any general --
30 A. That would have been a CID thing, but it doesn't ring any
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 80
1 bells with me.
2 381 Q. But the necessity for the creation of that offence was
3 because intelligence was being constantly collected by the
4 IRA?
5 A. Yeah.
6 382 Q. Of all sorts and in all varieties, through telephones --
7 A. Yeah.
8 383 Q. -- sightings from sympathisers?
9 A. Yes, yeah.
10
11 MR. McGUINNESS: Thank you.
12
13 THE WITNESS WAS CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. LEHANE AS FOLLOWS:
14
15 384 Q. MR. LEHANE: Good afternoon, Mr. Nesbitt. I represent
16 retired Inspector Owen Corrigan. I just have very brief
17 questions following on from the fact that you just
18 mentioned Mr. Corrigan in the course of hearing his name.
19 During the course of your evidence-in-chief, Mr. Nesbitt,
20 you said that you were always aware of security concerns
21 when you were leaving Newry and, in fact, when you were in
22 Newry, isn't that it?
23 A. Yeah.
24 385 Q. And obviously this Inquiry is looking into whether or not
25 -- or into allegations of collusion in respect of guards at
26 Dundalk Garda Station?
27 A. Yes.
28 386 Q. But would you agree with me that your security concerns
29 didn't just apply when you were in Dundalk Garda Station,
30 but in any other Garda Station you were visiting south of
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 81
1 the border?
2 A. Oh, yeah.
3 387 Q. And similarly, you would agree with me that your security
4 concerns didn't just arise when you were south of border,
5 but also when you were in Newry, when you were leaving
6 Newry?
7 A. Yes.
8 388 Q. And you mentioned to the Chairman there, just a couple of
9 seconds ago in response to a question from My Friend for
10 the Garda Commissioner, that Newry was constantly being
11 targeted by the IRA from an intelligence point of view,
12 obviously. Were you ever aware or did the RUC ever
13 apprehend anyone watching Newry Garda Station or Newry RUC
14 Station?
15 A. I can't think of any specific instance where they were.
16 There would have been -- we had patrols who actually
17 specifically protected the stations in Newry, station
18 patrols, and they just were constantly going round and
19 round. And they would have been stopping and checking
20 people on a regular basis and filling in the collator forms
21 on sightings of suspects, for want of a better word, who
22 were in the area of the station. And I would be very, very
23 surprised, in fact it would be wrong of me to say that
24 there were not sightings of terrorists or suspect
25 terrorists or supporters of terrorists stopped and spoken
26 to, because they're going to -- I mean, even if they are
27 not involved in terrorism on a particular day, the chances
28 are they are going to drive past Newry station some day for
29 to go to get a loaf of bread or whatever. So there will be
30 occasion when they will be --
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 82
1 389 Q. Just in relation to your security concerns, you would have
2 had a very heightened -- you would have been very aware of
3 security and the need for security in Newry?
4 A. Oh, yeah.
5 390 Q. And you have given evidence to the Chairman of how
6 dangerous a place that Newry was for RUC officers?
7 A. Yes.
8 391 Q. Would you agree with me that Newry was as dangerous, if not
9 possibly more dangerous, than, say, Dundalk?
10 A. Well, I think Dundalk was dangerous from a different point
11 of view. I mean, Newry was different or more dangerous
12 than Dundalk because the terrorists were actually targeting
13 Newry station and Bessbrook station and the stations in the
14 subdivision. I am not so sure they were targeting Dundalk
15 for to attack any of the guards, but they were targeting --
16 or maybe to target the likes of myself.
17
18 MR. LEHANE: Thank you very much.
19
20 MR. COFFEY: No questions.
21
22 MR. MacQUILL: No questions.
23
24 THE WITNESS WAS CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. ROBINSON AS FOLLOWS:
25
26 392 Q. MR. ROBINSON: Mr. Nesbitt, my name is Mark Robinson. I am
27 counsel for the PSNI. Could I ask you a number of brief
28 questions. You discussed the need for a face-to-face
29 meeting with your counterparts south of the border. It's
30 correct that those meetings were essential, they had to be
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 83
1 face-to-face. Other means of communication just did not
2 produce what was required?
3 A. Yeah. I mean, you won't beat a face-to-face conversation,
4 and even I -- whenever we'd be going down, we'd normally --
5 I maybe spent an hour, three-quarters of an hour, but never
6 much more than that. Just to give you that -- whenever you
7 could speak to somebody and talk to them in general terms
8 about everything, this, that and the other, and you might
9 be only maybe be spending five minutes speaking about your
10 specific job you wanted them to do or they wanted you to
11 do. More often it was us asking them. And if you are
12 constantly the one that is doing the asking, it's a bit
13 disingenuous to them if you don't make the effort to at
14 least see them, at least try to meet them half way and
15 explain to them, because if you do it over the phone it
16 loses the personal touch.
17 393 Q. Yes. If I can then address -- there has been some
18 criticism of Mr. Buchanan's possible attitude to safety in
19 the fact that he travelled so frequently across the border.
20 You mentioned in your evidence-in-chief that you discussed
21 routes and safety concerns with Superintendent Buchanan?
22 A. Yeah. It was Bob's job to go south of the border, and I
23 have no doubt that he varied his routes every bit as much
24 as I did. In fact, he probably had more opportunity to
25 vary it more than me, in so much he didn't necessarily, if
26 he went down to Dundalk from Newry station or from Armagh
27 station, he didn't have to come back. I would have always
28 been coming back to Newry, whereas he would more often than
29 not be coming back to maybe Armagh, maybe Keady, some of
30 the other stations, so he had a bit more variety. It would
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 84
1 be wrong that he wasn't alert to security. I mean, I would
2 say Bob was every bit as concerned as I was going down, and
3 certainly he did get -- there was very few people -- the
4 main mode of transport in south Armagh was helicopter. And
5 there was very few people that actually used their cars.
6 Bob, myself and a few others would have been the
7 exceptions. So, therefore, we knew south Armagh maybe
8 better than some of the Constables and Sergeants who were
9 maybe stationed in those areas because they walked the
10 roads, whereas we drove them. So, we had more knowledge of
11 the roads than he did. And certainly, I think Bob was as
12 cautious as I was, but Bob was probably -- he was
13 travelling a lot more than I would have been across the
14 border, but it would be wrong to say -- I don't think he
15 took his job or was blasé to the risk.
16 394 Q. Yes. Can you help the Tribunal with any information as to
17 how frequently you discussed the safety aspects of your
18 journeys?
19 A. Now and again. I can't say it formed the basis of our
20 conversation. It was just maybe on a Saturday, as I say.
21 He and I worked together on a Saturday. It was always a
22 relaxed maybe half hour, three-quarters of an hour where we
23 talked about everything from our family to what was
24 happening in Newry, what was happening in Armagh. Once or
25 twice we would have talked maybe -- he might have said, "I
26 have to go down to" or "We are going to a meeting with the
27 guards next week, what do you think? I mean, you are going
28 to -- is there anything you want to discuss?", that type of
29 thing. But the formal meetings were certainly a lot more
30 structured. I remember whenever they started out first, we
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 85
1 used to be escorted from the border. And I think we got to
2 the stage where we said, look, this is a bit -- I mean, it
3 is a bit -- it is unwielding. But as well as that too, we
4 had to meet them at a certain location and having to drive
5 there to be escorted, it was a bit of -- so we then said,
6 "Look, leave it. We'll drive down, you can escort us
7 back", you know that sort of thing. So, it started off
8 quite strict but then after a while we realised that we had
9 to relax the restrictions. But then, for the informal
10 meetings, we used to -- I certainly wouldn't have made any
11 plans. Bob would probably, because he would be going to
12 see the likes of the Divisional Commander or the
13 Subdivisional Commander, whereas I was going to people who
14 were more likely to be in the office and maybe not as
15 involved in meetings as the ones -- whereas Bob would have
16 to make an appointment, whereas I didn't really have to
17 make an appointment. And there was no loss to me if I went
18 down and I didn't see the person I wanted to see, but maybe
19 there was somebody else there that I could have seen and I
20 could have done the same job for me.
21 395 Q. That takes me to my next point. There was some criticism
22 about the point that he travelled in his own vehicle
23 without an escort, for example. You mentioned the risk
24 that you were aware of when you were travelling. Is it
25 correct to say that if you had, for example, used an
26 armoured vehicle that would have attracted more attention?
27 A. Yeah.
28 396 Q. And if you were in an escort with additional vehicles, that
29 would have made you more of a target?
30 A. As well as that too there was always, if you are driving
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 86
1 your own car you know your own car, you know what its
2 capabilities are. If there is somebody following you, you
3 know you can overtake, whereas if you are driving a strange
4 vehicle or an armoured vehicle for that matter, they are
5 unwieldy, you don't know them. So I have to say that -- I
6 mean the cars that we were driving, both of us were
7 nondescript cars that in south Armagh would not have looked
8 either in place or out of place. And I remember talking to
9 Bob or Bob talking one time about thinking about changing
10 his car and one of the reasons why he wasn't changing it is
11 because it is nondescript.
12 397 Q. Yes. And if I move then to another part of your
13 evidence-in-chief, you mentioned that you received no
14 instructions regarding safety and crossing the border.
15 Would it be correct to say you were best placed on the
16 ground and knowing the risks and knowing the lay of the
17 land and the personalities involved, that you were best
18 placed to assess the risk at the very time you decided to
19 travel?
20 A. Well, yeah, because Special Branch weren't that far away
21 from me. As well as that, I had communications up there,
22 so I could always see what the out of bounds were. Because
23 of the relationship I had with Special Branch in relation
24 to operations we always had a general feel as to what was
25 going on. I would never -- very seldom did I ever say to
26 Special Branch, 'By the way I'm going down south tomorrow",
27 maybe the odd occasion maybe I had. What they were doing
28 was totally different to what I was doing, so therefore
29 there was no -- unless they -- if they specifically told
30 me, "Look, there is an extra -- there is an increased
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 87
1 threat, are you planning to go down next week? Don't".
2 But I was never told that. The threat was never such that
3 we were specifically told not to go across the border.
4
5 MR. ROBINSON: I have no further questions. I am obliged.
6
7 CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.
8
9 THE WITNESS WAS RE-EXAMINED BY MR. DILLON AS FOLLOWS:
10
11 398 Q. MR. DILLON: Just one or two matters, Mr. Nesbitt. On the
12 matter of helicopters, we see a reference to No Fly Day. I
13 understand that there were these -- there were days when
14 helicopters didn't fly, I think it was largely a fuel
15 economy measure to save on petrol, as it were. You were
16 involved in the subsequent investigation. Do you remember
17 whether it was determined whether the 20th of March was a
18 No Fly Day or not?
19 A. I can't remember. I mean, we certainly had No Fly Days,
20 but they just didn't happen, because no matter how it
21 worked out, there would still have had to have been maybe
22 an emergency flight in to one of the OPs for maybe a
23 soldier who was ill or something. They had No Fly Days,
24 but they weren't actually No Fly Days as such.
25 399 Q. I understand.
26 A. They would have restricted certainly movement. In other
27 words, unless you had an emergency I couldn't have had a
28 patrol go into Forkhill or Crossmaglen, for example. So,
29 they certainly had No Fly Days, but they weren't No Fly
30 Days. They certainly were days of restricted movement.
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 88
1 400 Q. The second matter is this: In the course of the
2 debriefings after the murders, do you recall in terms of
3 the debriefings that you attended, do you recall whether
4 Harry Breen's Staff Officer, Alan Mains, whether he was
5 present?
6 A. I can remember seeing Alan Mains at any of the debriefings
7 that I attended. His role would have kept him in Armagh.
8 401 Q. You never saw him in Newry then, did you?
9 A. Well, he had been stationed in Newry and so he knew the --
10 but I have no recollection of him being in -- he had no
11 reason to be there.
12 402 Q. Now, if the two officers were travelling back to Bessbrook,
13 might the Edenappa Road be the easier road to take, the
14 more direct route?
15 A. It could be. But I mean, there was any one of three or
16 four roads you could have taken. You could have turned off
17 any of them. It might be the handiest, but I'm not so sure
18 on that particular day it could have been. There were
19 different roads we took, and certainly Bob was aware of all
20 the different roads because we had talked about it now and
21 again. He would have been comparing notes with me because
22 he knew I was going down.
23 403 Q. And you told the Chairman that Harry Breen had a fairly
24 high profile. Do you remember the Loughgall ambush?
25 A. I do indeed, yes.
26 404 Q. And do you remember the photograph that was taken
27 subsequently with Harry Breen standing over the caché of
28 weapons. What might that have done for his profile?
29 A. Well, as I say, Harry Breen was the sort of person who had
30 a presence about him, and even on his -- even the way --
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 89
1 his presence was such that he was tall, he was -- he stood
2 very erect. He was very -- in uniform he certainly looked
3 very much the part. It certainly didn't do his profile any
4 good appearing like that, and he was seen as Mr. 'H'
5 Division or Mr. Newry. And then, he had been in Newry as
6 well, so he knew -- he was well-known, I mean. And, as I
7 say, even the way he talked he had this -- you knew you
8 were dealing with somebody who was more than capable.
9 Certainly my dealings with Harry Breen were such that he
10 was the sort of person who, whenever he made a decision,
11 you knew it was made for the right reason and you respected
12 the decision. There was no such thing as questioning it.
13 Even whenever he appeared on television, you knew whenever
14 Harry was talking he was speaking factually correctly, he
15 didn't waste any words, he said it as it was. And that was
16 the type of individual he was.
17 405 Q. Yes. In terms of a profile, might that photograph of what
18 I might call the Loughgall photograph, might that have
19 raised his profile with the subversives?
20 A. I would say that it would probably -- once after that that
21 they felt that they had to get some sort of revenge or
22 whatever for -- not that they needed an excuse, but
23 certainly he was a high profiled target, and it would be a
24 coup for them if they could have got him, and they did.
25 406 Q. They did indeed, yes. And the last matter is, you were
26 speaking about out of bounds and the implementation of an
27 order that a particular area was out of bounds. But when
28 an area was taken back into bounds, once the out of bounds
29 order is rescinded, how soon does one know that?
30 A. It would be sent out in MSX. So, I mean, the MSX would
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 90
1 then be sent out. For the likes of Harry Breen, Bob
2 Buchanan, every night we did an MSX that showed out of
3 bounds. Once an area the Special Branch or whoever said,
4 look, that area can be go back in bounds, we would have
5 sent an MSX out Force wide or certainly within 'H' Division
6 and into Headquarters in Belfast. So, they would have seen
7 it. Even as soon as it hit the in-box in Armagh, Harry
8 Breen would have been given a copy of it.
9 407 Q. Yes.
10 A. Until then he would have treated it as out of bounds and
11 wouldn't have...
12 408 Q. One last thing: What does MSX mean? What does it stand
13 for?
14 A. It is Message Switch System.
15
16 MS. CUMMINS: Message telex.
17
18 A. Yes, it is just like -- it would have been today's e-mail.
19
20 MR. DILLON: Very good. Thank you very much.
21
22 CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.
23
24 MR. DILLON: Your next witness will be at 11 o'clock
25 tomorrow morning.
26
27 CHAIRMAN: Tomorrow morning. Mr. Nesbitt, thank you very
28 much indeed for coming to help us out. I very much
29 appreciate that you have come down without any compulsion.
30 I deeply appreciate it. Thank you very much.
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 91
1 A. You are welcome. 2
3 CHAIRMAN: 11 o'clock then tomorrow.
4
5 THE TRIBUNAL ADJOURNED UNTIL THE FOLLOWING DAY, THURSDAY
6 THE 6TH OF OCTOBER, 2011, AT 11 A.M..
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Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 1
' 2nd [1] - 56:1 actual [3] - 74:21, 75:18, anonymous [1] - 4:25 56:6, 57:7, 58:5, 61:15, 75:29 anonymously [2] - 1:5, 61:19, 61:27, 65:24, '71 [1] - 62:8 3 additional [1] - 85:28 31:17 67:26, 69:28, 70:17, '80s [1] - 62:9 address [2] - 39:22, 83:17 Answer [7] - 31:17, 32:5, 71:7, 71:12, 83:26, 32 [1] - 31:18 '88 [5] - 45:12, 45:13, adeptly [1] - 51:6 32:18, 33:2, 33:6, 83:29, 84:4, 84:7, 37 [2] - 28:24, 28:25 55:25, 64:21, 69:23 adjacent [1] - 61:27 33:15, 33:18 84:24, 86:7, 88:7, 90:7 '89 [7] - 27:19, 27:20, ADJOURNED [4] - 25:21, answer [5] - 32:10, 36:22, armed [1] - 75:10 45:12, 45:13, 45:17, 5 39:20, 46:3, 91:5 36:23, 62:14, 76:10 armoured [2] - 85:26, 64:21, 69:23 admired [2] - 49:12, answered [2] - 31:30, 86:4 5TH [1] - 1:1 '90s [1] - 21:4 49:16 68:9 army [5] - 65:2, 65:20, '94 [1] - 41:4 65:23, 66:18, 66:29 6 advance [2] - 15:9, 74:15 answering [1] - 44:19 '97 [1] - 40:27 advantage [2] - 69:16, anxious [2] - 40:6, 70:26 arose [2] - 32:27, 36:8 'By [1] - 86:26 6-0 [1] - 5:5 79:4 anyway [3] - 10:7, 26:22, arrange [8] - 9:29, 15:10, 'H' [4] - 48:10, 70:17, 60 [6] - 5:1, 5:5, 5:7, adverting [1] - 3:4 36:24 18:21, 51:27, 51:28, 89:4, 90:5 24:17, 25:3, 25:16 advise [1] - 16:11 apart [2] - 53:21, 57:18 58:25, 75:23, 75:24 'keeping [1] - 35:28 61 [4] - 26:3, 26:26, advised [1] - 11:1 apologies [3] - 5:6, arranged [3] - 57:22, 'Mooch' [7] - 13:17, 21:7, 26:27, 45:1 affable [1] - 56:23 31:21, 57:30 59:17, 67:7 21:18, 21:22, 21:29, 6TH [1] - 91:6 affected [1] - 3:17 apologise [1] - 39:7 arrangement [2] - 9:22, 24:18 6th [1] - 2:1 affidavits [1] - 3:14 appeal [2] - 1:7, 1:12 53:1 'Slab' [1] - 58:25 afraid [1] - 15:2 appear [9] - 15:26, 17:11, arrangements [2] - 9:9, 'Steak [5] - 2:15, 2:23, 9:23 8 AFTER [1] - 47:1 19:30, 35:3, 36:12, 3:13, 3:16, 3:19 aftermath [1] - 75:7 39:8, 61:7, 66:20, 67:23 arranging [2] - 66:14, 80s [2] - 41:23, 41:27 afternoon [13] - 7:10, appeared [2] - 57:9, 72:29 1 8th [1] - 55:25 32:5, 45:26, 47:3, 47:5, 89:13 arrested [4] - 19:8, 20:19, 47:8, 51:29, 58:9, 61:6, appearing [1] - 89:4 20:24, 42:1 11 [3] - 90:24, 91:3, 91:6 9 67:22, 73:3, 75:11, application [10] - 1:15, arrival [1] - 54:6 17th [1] - 2:10 80:15 1:24, 1:26, 2:12, 2:26, arrive [1] - 58:9 1968 [1] - 26:29 90s [3] - 41:23, 41:28, afterwards [1] - 69:25 3:9, 3:12, 3:13, 3:21, arrived [2] - 49:4, 52:4 1970 [2] - 48:6, 62:8 42:2 agencies [1] - 12:28 3:29 AS [18] - 1:1, 1:22, 5:2, 1977 [1] - 5:9 agent [2] - 23:20, 45:2 applies [1] - 2:27 15:24, 19:27, 24:15, 1980 [1] - 6:9 A Agent [2] - 2:15, 3:19 apply [2] - 3:29, 80:29 25:21, 26:4, 35:1, 1980s [2] - 6:26, 21:4 A.M. [1] - 91:6 ago [2] - 4:17, 81:9 appointed [1] - 17:25 40:14, 41:19, 44:30, 1983 [3] - 48:8, 48:11, 47:1, 48:2, 61:3, 80:13, A2 [1] - 65:4 agree [9] - 22:1, 24:2, appointment [3] - 60:22, 48:16 82:24, 87:9 abducted [1] - 17:1 70:20, 70:25, 71:27, 85:16, 85:17 1985 [9] - 10:27, 18:2, aside [1] - 19:10 abide [2] - 4:3, 53:17 78:28, 80:28, 81:3, 82:8 appreciate [7] - 21:18, 18:5, 27:4, 28:8, 28:10, aspect [2] - 8:23, 65:5 able [4] - 3:28, 40:3, agreed [1] - 40:19 22:9, 26:20, 26:28, 28:23, 28:26, 35:26 52:16, 76:10 air [1] - 32:1 48:5, 90:29, 90:30 aspects [2] - 11:20, 84:17 1988 [3] - 6:30, 27:14, assess [1] - 86:18 ably [1] - 3:25 Alan [2] - 88:4, 88:6 appreciated [1] - 25:17 56:1 assessment [1] - 53:27 absolutely [8] - 21:3, albeit [2] - 56:24, 70:6 apprehend [1] - 81:13 1989 [12] - 7:5, 8:15, 8:25, 28:6, 34:16, 37:18, alert [4] - 77:6, 78:20, apprehensive [1] - 10:16 asset [2] - 42:5, 42:11 20:4, 20:5, 33:26, 37:25, 37:29, 41:2, 84:1 approachable [2] - 6:12, assist [2] - 5:8, 42:3 50:29, 56:29, 57:1, 42:29 allegation [2] - 2:17, 3:18 6:13 assistance [2] - 26:28, 57:24 ACC [2] - 34:3, 73:4 allegations [2] - 3:7, approaching [1] - 75:28 41:10 1990 [2] - 16:30, 17:1 accept [3] - 21:23, 42:30, 80:25 appropriate [1] - 2:4 Assistant [2] - 28:21, 1991 [2] - 9:11, 11:8 43:5 alleged [1] - 28:10 area [40] - 6:4, 8:2, 8:19, 28:22 1993/1994 [1] - 42:19 accepts [1] - 43:30 allowed [1] - 16:18 8:24, 12:25, 18:24, associates [1] - 21:30 1994 [3] - 23:26, 24:3, access [3] - 10:2, 14:21, almost [3] - 6:9, 51:9, 20:9, 32:30, 33:16, association [1] - 22:4 24:25 29:1 68:12 33:18, 35:8, 35:16, assume [3] - 56:8, 77:25, 1996 [1] - 43:7 accident [2] - 68:1, 68:2 alone [1] - 35:12 61:11, 61:21, 63:5, 78:9 1997 [1] - 6:9 accidentally [1] - 1:6 alternative [1] - 2:14 66:7, 66:8, 66:12, assumed [1] - 30:15 66:15, 66:17, 66:30, AT [1] - 91:6 2 according [1] - 3:12 ambush [2] - 32:15, account [1] - 62:29 88:24 67:5, 67:10, 67:29, atmosphere [1] - 52:20 68:10, 68:12, 68:17, attached [1] - 14:21 2001 [3] - 2:26, 27:2, 27:3 accurate [1] - 20:16 ammunitions [3] - 20:26, 69:22, 69:26, 74:10, attack [4] - 23:5, 62:2, 2005 [1] - 5:11 accusing [1] - 26:18 20:27, 20:30 75:25, 76:2, 76:5, 76:9, 64:8, 82:15 2006 [1] - 1:25 acknowledged [1] - amn't [1] - 19:2 79:25, 81:22, 89:27, attacks [1] - 64:21 2011 [6] - 1:1, 2:1, 2:10, 37:16 amount [1] - 53:4 89:28, 90:3, 90:4 2:12, 2:21, 91:6 Act [3] - 18:13, 42:2, analysed [1] - 28:27 attend [2] - 3:15, 25:8 area' [1] - 33:14 attended [3] - 74:19, 20th [6] - 50:29, 57:1, 79:23 analysis [1] - 35:18 areas [7] - 53:23, 67:8, 88:3, 88:7 57:23, 60:10, 87:17 acted [1] - 43:11 analyst [2] - 35:20, 35:21 67:27, 68:5, 69:2, 69:4, attending [2] - 37:2, 49:1 21 [1] - 3:8 action [1] - 67:13 AND [1] - 25:21 84:9 attention [3] - 65:18, 23rd [1] - 2:26 active [5] - 20:17, 53:11, annotations [1] - 12:13 arise [1] - 81:4 78:30, 85:26 24th [1] - 1:25 53:24, 62:29, 73:1 announce [2] - 15:17, Armagh [38] - 6:27, 8:19, attitude [1] - 83:18 26th [1] - 2:21 actively [1] - 32:11 54:6 18:5, 20:18, 21:14, attracted [1] - 85:26 27 [6] - 31:2, 31:4, 31:30, activities [2] - 42:16, announced [2] - 52:6, 30:20, 30:22, 33:14, 32:27, 43:30, 73:4 66:23 52:8 authorise [1] - 18:13 33:18, 35:8, 37:21, authorising [1] - 18:12 28th [1] - 2:12 activity [4] - 33:6, 33:13, anonymity [4] - 1:11, 48:11, 50:20, 53:11, authority [3] - 49:8, 49:9, 2:30 [1] - 75:11 67:26 4:20, 25:25, 47:9 53:22, 53:27, 54:23, 49:21
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 2 available [2] - 3:26, 35:8 beyond [1] - 6:24 16:5, 16:9, 16:16, CALLAN [1] - 19:25 89:3, 89:9, 89:23, 90:5 avoided [1] - 16:19 bi [2] - 29:9, 29:12 16:17, 16:23, 16:25, caller [1] - 51:15 certainty [1] - 23:30 aware [39] - 7:27, 13:7, bi-monthly [2] - 29:9, 21:25, 22:16, 22:17, cannot [2] - 3:22, 43:28 chairman [2] - 19:29, 13:13, 13:16, 13:27, 29:12 22:18, 27:4, 28:23, capabilities [3] - 74:3, 26:6 16:16, 16:27, 18:3, big [5] - 33:18, 65:7, 65:9, 31:26, 35:5, 35:16, 75:3, 86:2 CHAIRMAN [33] - 1:3, 22:10, 22:15, 23:27, 65:10, 78:4 36:5, 37:2, 37:13, capability [1] - 74:30 1:20, 1:22, 1:24, 4:11, 28:8, 28:12, 28:13, bigger [1] - 50:19 42:12, 43:6, 67:8, capable [1] - 89:8 4:24, 19:21, 23:1, 30:30, 35:7, 36:3, bit [15] - 9:7, 23:14, 67:30, 76:18, 76:29, capacity [1] - 69:24 24:11, 25:3, 25:10, 36:28, 43:8, 43:9, 29:11, 48:27, 50:9, 86:20, 86:23, 86:26, Captain [3] - 40:25, 25:30, 26:12, 26:18, 53:10, 53:28, 53:29, 50:22, 57:3, 74:9, 90:3 40:26, 40:29 26:22, 34:26, 39:3, 57:2, 62:26, 63:4, 83:12, 83:23, 83:30, bread [1] - 81:29 car [32] - 14:18, 14:20, 39:12, 39:16, 39:22, 66:21, 66:22, 67:2, 84:2, 85:2, 85:3, 85:5 Breen [24] - 2:18, 8:15, 15:7, 15:11, 15:13, 39:29, 40:12, 41:15, 69:8, 75:9, 77:4, 79:27, bits [1] - 61:27 38:3, 43:25, 48:24, 18:24, 18:25, 19:1, 44:26, 45:21, 45:28, 79:28, 80:20, 81:12, blacked [1] - 33:13 48:27, 48:29, 49:5, 38:12, 51:18, 51:20, 47:5, 47:11, 61:1, 87:7, 82:2, 85:24, 88:19 Blair [8] - 13:17, 21:7, 49:7, 52:15, 59:27, 51:21, 52:1, 52:4, 52:7, 90:22, 90:27, 91:3 awful [1] - 53:25 21:18, 21:22, 21:30, 60:10, 60:11, 69:1, 53:12, 54:27, 55:17, Chairman [52] - 1:18, 4:9, 24:18, 24:22 69:12, 69:13, 70:15, 55:18, 55:21, 63:11, 4:13, 4:15, 5:4, 5:5, 5:8, B blasé [1] - 84:15 74:11, 88:23, 88:27, 63:12, 70:10, 78:28, 5:10, 5:12, 5:16, 5:25, Bob [58] - 2:19, 5:26, 6:8, 88:29, 89:9, 90:1, 90:8 79:3, 79:7, 86:1, 86:10 6:20, 6:25, 6:29, 7:20, backwards [1] - 51:17 27:23, 27:25, 27:26, Breen's [1] - 88:4 care [1] - 1:13 8:5, 8:14, 11:28, 12:16, backyard [1] - 15:14 48:24, 49:3, 49:6, Brian [7] - 52:13, 55:11, career [5] - 35:4, 48:6, 12:23, 12:30, 13:6, Barracks [5] - 6:30, 49:12, 49:17, 50:16, 55:12, 56:22, 56:23, 50:4, 63:15, 71:21 13:10, 13:22, 14:12, 20:10, 27:10, 27:11, 50:17, 52:15, 55:13, 78:15 careful [8] - 6:22, 10:12, 14:16, 14:20, 15:3, 45:10 55:15, 55:27, 57:26, Bridge [1] - 64:9 10:16, 11:1, 11:6, 12:2, 22:26, 25:5, 25:23, barrier [1] - 4:14 57:27, 58:1, 58:6, bridge [5] - 56:2, 64:22, 27:29, 37:14 26:25, 27:25, 31:1, base [1] - 49:21 59:25, 59:26, 59:30, 65:21, 66:20, 69:14 carefully [1] - 28:1 31:10, 31:28, 32:23, based [9] - 6:30, 11:11, 60:2, 60:13, 60:14, brief [2] - 80:16, 82:27 carried [1] - 17:28 33:22, 33:25, 38:27, 13:20, 14:14, 21:19, 60:16, 60:17, 64:11, briefed [5] - 53:17, 54:7, carry [1] - 65:25 39:7, 39:14, 39:24, 21:22, 27:10, 28:4, 72:1 40:3, 44:28, 45:24, 65:24, 66:3, 66:9, 54:19, 76:27, 77:6 carrying [2] - 8:13, 42:23 basis [13] - 9:4, 9:11, 47:3, 60:8, 70:29, 81:8, 67:22, 68:24, 68:26, briefing [1] - 54:16 cars [8] - 14:21, 14:23, 9:20, 14:22, 53:7, 69:6, 69:16, 70:17, briefly [2] - 4:21, 24:13 14:25, 19:9, 72:8, 84:5, 82:5, 88:23 62:21, 62:24, 66:10, 71:13, 71:18, 72:24, BRIEFLY [2] - 25:21, 86:6, 86:7 Chairman's [1] - 53:29 68:22, 70:23, 73:18, chance [2] - 14:4, 70:12 74:21, 76:15, 78:1, 39:20 Carson [1] - 8:4 81:20, 84:19 chances [2] - 62:25, 84:2, 84:6, 84:11, bring [1] - 7:18 case [8] - 5:8, 11:14, BE [1] - 40:14 84:12, 85:11, 85:15, Britain [1] - 37:23 16:13, 26:15, 26:29, 81:27 bear [3] - 11:14, 55:6, 86:9, 88:19, 90:1 broader [2] - 49:28, 50:18 30:25, 53:14, 60:26 changed [2] - 14:22, 62:3 60:9 changing [2] - 86:9, Bob's [3] - 66:4, 77:16, broadest [1] - 57:14 cases [1] - 79:10 beat [1] - 83:3 86:10 83:22 brought [1] - 29:10 catch [1] - 65:4 became [12] - 18:3, character [1] - 56:24 bodies [1] - 7:30 BT [1] - 63:5 catered [1] - 64:14 20:15, 22:10, 22:15, charge [5] - 8:19, 8:23, body [2] - 8:10 Buchanan [30] - 2:19, caused [1] - 26:9 23:16, 23:25, 23:26, 62:4, 79:13, 79:14 bone [1] - 64:27 5:27, 6:8, 6:10, 27:23, caution [1] - 53:19 24:3, 27:4, 38:24, chat [7] - 58:8, 58:16, bonus [1] - 78:11 27:25, 27:26, 38:3, cautious [2] - 78:21, 40:20, 45:2 book [1] - 14:1 43:25, 48:25, 49:3, 84:12 58:17, 58:21, 58:27, become [6] - 2:5, 42:30, 58:28, 59:21 Border [4] - 49:4, 56:6, 49:6, 49:12, 49:17, Cavalier [1] - 55:18 62:26, 63:4, 72:18, 75:9 chatting [1] - 59:3 70:22, 71:22 52:16, 55:14, 55:27, centre [2] - 19:6, 63:21 BEEN [3] - 5:1, 26:3, 48:1 cheaper [1] - 65:15 border [32] - 6:5, 7:21, 57:26, 60:2, 60:13, centred [1] - 9:15 began [1] - 48:6 60:14, 65:20, 67:22, check [2] - 5:17, 68:30 7:22, 9:15, 10:11, certain [4] - 49:8, 53:4, begin [1] - 1:3 checking [1] - 81:19 13:21, 29:6, 29:8, 68:18, 69:13, 73:2, 53:18, 85:4 beginning [1] - 45:9 50:15, 50:21, 50:24, 74:21, 76:15, 83:21, checkpoint [1] - 19:14 Certainly [1] - 79:3 behalf [1] - 19:30 53:3, 59:9, 61:21, 64:7, 90:2 checkpoints [2] - 69:20, certainly [62] - 11:27, behind [2] - 4:13, 4:26 65:6, 65:11, 66:13, Buchanan's [6] - 56:8, 14:5, 17:20, 17:22, 69:21 Belfast [2] - 12:26, 90:6 66:17, 72:6, 72:27, 56:10, 64:6, 70:10, 17:27, 21:18, 23:10, Chief [26] - 2:18, 17:25, belief [3] - 20:17, 28:3, 73:8, 73:9, 81:1, 81:4, 78:28, 83:18 36:3, 38:6, 39:9, 49:7, 27:4, 28:18, 28:21, 77:13 82:29, 83:19, 83:22, built [2] - 17:4, 72:12 49:10, 49:14, 49:23, 28:22, 31:25, 33:1, bells [1] - 80:1 84:14, 85:1, 86:14, 87:3 bureaucracy [1] - 28:15 49:29, 53:16, 53:24, 33:10, 43:14, 44:2, belong [1] - 32:2 bounds [24] - 67:4, 67:8, burglary [1] - 68:6 57:10, 60:16, 60:19, 44:13, 44:14, 48:18, benefit [1] - 25:24 67:10, 67:17, 67:20, busiest [1] - 76:3 62:14, 63:18, 63:29, 48:20, 50:12, 55:26, Bessbrook [7] - 55:26, 67:24, 67:26, 68:4, business [1] - 56:14 64:27, 65:10, 65:17, 56:3, 56:4, 56:16, 58:2, 56:2, 61:11, 76:11, 68:10, 68:15, 68:17, busy [2] - 8:1, 75:23 65:22, 66:23, 66:29, 58:3, 62:5, 69:13, 70:5, 78:3, 82:13, 88:12 68:19, 68:26, 69:2, BY [14] - 5:1, 15:24, 68:25, 69:24, 70:15, 79:18 best [4] - 11:15, 27:28, 69:4, 69:19, 86:22, 19:27, 24:15, 26:3, 70:19, 70:23, 71:13, chief [3] - 80:19, 83:20, 86:15, 86:17 89:26, 89:27, 89:28, 35:1, 40:14, 41:19, 72:30, 73:7, 74:16, 86:13 Bestbrook [1] - 76:3 90:3, 90:4, 90:10 44:30, 48:1, 61:3, 74:17, 74:24, 75:15, choice [1] - 69:11 better [4] - 19:12, 50:27, box [1] - 90:7 80:13, 82:24, 87:9 77:3, 77:4, 77:28, 78:3, choosing [2] - 19:1, 81:21, 84:8 boys [1] - 35:28 78:5, 78:15, 84:3, 71:28 between [7] - 7:6, 7:14, branch [1] - 71:9 C 84:11, 84:29, 85:10, Christian [1] - 6:11 40:30, 48:8, 61:20, Branch [33] - 4:16, 11:28, 87:19, 87:26, 87:29, chronology [1] - 45:8 caché [1] - 88:27 65:8, 65:13 12:2, 12:10, 15:28, 87:30, 88:19, 89:2, CID [15] - 5:13, 8:23, 10:2,
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 3
12:5, 12:8, 12:10, communicating [1] - contention [1] - 64:27 covered [5] - 58:3, 58:4, 48:23, 49:17, 75:26 12:28, 14:21, 15:28, 32:12 context [4] - 6:21, 13:28, 61:11, 61:21, 74:23 dealing [11] - 11:6, 11:15, 16:4, 16:6, 20:2, 22:6, communication [1] - 83:1 29:12, 50:10 covering [1] - 6:3 12:1, 12:11, 16:1, 16:2, 43:6, 79:30 Communications [1] - continent [1] - 37:24 covert [3] - 66:20, 66:22, 34:9, 38:18, 41:9, cipher [3] - 5:21, 28:20, 58:11 continue [2] - 4:3, 40:5 67:26 50:17, 89:8 31:2 communications [1] - CONTINUED [1] - 40:14 covertly [1] - 67:7 dealings [6] - 33:27, 50:7, ciphers [1] - 5:18 86:21 convenient [1] - 9:27 Craigavon [1] - 8:3 54:8, 66:5, 89:9 circuitous [1] - 77:24 community [1] - 65:8 conversation [6] - 51:9, created [1] - 41:9 dealt [5] - 4:18, 27:11, circumstances [1] - 4:20 comparing [1] - 88:21 59:5, 71:14, 74:27, creation [1] - 80:2 29:3, 38:30, 45:10 civilian [3] - 14:21, 16:18, completely [1] - 39:5 83:3, 84:20 credible [1] - 31:17 death [1] - 41:3 75:27 comprehensive [1] - 3:4 conversations [1] - 32:20 credit [1] - 62:16 debriefings [3] - 88:2, clad [1] - 77:14 comprised [2] - 4:16, convicted [2] - 17:24, crime [7] - 6:3, 16:1, 16:2, 88:3, 88:6 claimed [1] - 63:4 54:9 19:8 16:4, 16:8, 24:7 debriefs [1] - 74:18 clear [3] - 8:5, 39:17, 60:2 compulsion [1] - 90:29 convictions [3] - 79:15, criminal [1] - 12:12 deceased [6] - 7:7, 7:30, clearance [2] - 56:2, conceived [1] - 21:15 79:28, 79:29 criteria [1] - 3:29 8:7, 29:29, 33:1, 48:24 65:26 concern [7] - 53:13, coordinate [1] - 66:9 critical [3] - 28:2, 49:19, December [4] - 20:4, cleared [4] - 25:27, 39:16, 54:28, 63:15, 63:17, copy [1] - 90:8 71:28 20:5, 64:20, 64:21 39:30, 64:26 76:24, 78:12 correct [69] - 5:10, 5:12, criticism [2] - 83:18, decent [2] - 6:14, 27:26 clearly [3] - 4:19, 26:10, concerned [6] - 23:21, 5:15, 5:25, 6:29, 7:1, 85:21 decided [1] - 86:18 52:21 32:7, 63:30, 77:11, 7:4, 7:13, 8:8, 8:12, cross [6] - 3:27, 6:5, 29:6, decision [8] - 58:30, client [1] - 2:2 78:22, 84:2 8:17, 8:27, 9:14, 11:30, 29:8, 54:5, 65:6 59:30, 67:3, 68:14, client's [1] - 4:6 concerns [9] - 16:26, 12:16, 12:19, 12:23, CROSS [8] - 15:24, 72:1, 89:10, 89:12 close [6] - 9:17, 11:3, 18:3, 76:16, 76:19, 12:30, 13:3, 13:6, 19:27, 35:1, 40:14, dedicated [1] - 62:17 30:4, 34:3, 64:24, 78:30 80:20, 80:28, 81:4, 13:10, 14:25, 14:26, 41:19, 61:3, 80:13, deeply [1] - 90:30 closely [2] - 8:21, 11:12 82:1, 83:21 16:25, 19:13, 19:17, 82:24 definite [1] - 32:18 closer [3] - 27:3, 29:11, conclude [1] - 13:23 20:7, 20:8, 20:10, cross-border [3] - 6:5, degree [1] - 23:30 48:12 conclusion [1] - 74:14 20:13, 20:23, 20:28, 29:6, 29:8 DELIVERED [1] - 1:22 closing [1] - 65:6 concrete [1] - 73:19 22:12, 22:22, 23:13, cross-examination [1] - denied [1] - 3:13 coalface [1] - 35:19 condition [1] - 28:30 23:18, 23:22, 26:30, 3:27 department [1] - 8:22 coded [1] - 51:10 conduct [1] - 6:15 27:6, 27:9, 27:13, CROSS-EXAMINED [8] - deposited [1] - 75:10 coffee [1] - 72:14 conducted [2] - 30:23, 27:16, 27:21, 27:22, 15:24, 19:27, 35:1, describe [2] - 27:25, COFFEY [1] - 82:20 67:13 27:24, 28:17, 28:19, 40:14, 41:19, 61:3, 30:22 cohesive [2] - 30:23, confidentiality [2] - 28:29, 29:2, 29:14, 80:13, 82:24 described [2] - 36:17, 37:26 12:17, 29:1 29:23, 30:13, 33:2, crossing [1] - 86:14 41:7 collator [1] - 81:20 confidently [1] - 68:21 33:15, 41:5, 42:4, 42:6, Crossmaglen [2] - 61:12, describing [1] - 6:25 colleague [4] - 14:7, 31:6, configure [1] - 38:14 42:13, 43:16, 44:17, 87:28 description [1] - 37:26 45:12, 48:7, 48:19, 33:10, 40:19 confirm [2] - 41:22, 64:19 Crowe [1] - 11:7 deserve [1] - 62:17 48:22, 61:24, 64:19, colleagues [16] - 7:15, confirmation [1] - 16:23 CUMMINS [1] - 90:16 desire [1] - 7:17 82:30, 85:25, 86:15 7:24, 8:6, 10:22, 10:24, conjunction [1] - 30:27 cup [2] - 72:14 desk [1] - 15:20 correctly [1] - 89:14 14:4, 29:29, 34:1, 34:2, connected [1] - 20:27 Curran [4] - 56:11, 56:12, details [2] - 59:19, 67:15 Corrigan [17] - 13:25, 36:29, 37:2, 37:14, connection [4] - 9:12, 56:26 Detective [9] - 7:2, 13:24, 33:27, 33:28, 34:5, 37:30, 45:6, 76:23, 17:17, 22:20, 24:26 current [1] - 5:4 20:5, 23:14, 33:10, 34:9, 36:1, 36:8, 36:21, 77:13 conscious [6] - 38:1, Customs [2] - 63:1, 63:2 33:26, 36:21, 43:14, 36:29, 40:22, 41:1, collected [1] - 80:3 52:29, 53:11, 54:20, cutting [1] - 39:8 44:2 41:7, 77:1, 77:5, 78:18, collecting [1] - 17:21 54:22, 63:19 detective [1] - 50:3 80:16, 80:18 Collins [1] - 62:27 considerable [2] - 43:15, D determined [1] - 87:17 Corry [3] - 19:6, 19:9, colluded [1] - 2:17 64:24 develop [1] - 9:2 61:14 Dan [4] - 8:29, 55:7, 55:8, collusion [4] - 30:6, 54:3, considered [3] - 2:3, developed [2] - 8:26, counsel [4] - 2:8, 3:25, 54:12, 80:25 3:21, 16:10 78:15 11:3 38:28, 82:27 danger [5] - 10:4, 10:15, Colton [2] - 14:10, 34:17 consistently [1] - 3:12 device [1] - 51:3 counterparts [1] - 82:29 52:28 coming [20] - 5:8, 9:22, Constable [3] - 28:18, devices [3] - 64:25, 65:3, country [2] - 18:25, 30:16 dangerous [10] - 10:6, 15:1, 17:10, 25:16, 28:21, 28:22 65:4 coup [1] - 89:24 10:10, 10:11, 37:16, 26:27, 27:3, 37:19, constable [2] - 48:30, diary [2] - 56:8, 56:10 couple [3] - 15:27, 66:19, 53:23, 82:6, 82:8, 82:9, 38:16, 48:5, 53:13, 62:7 difference [1] - 22:9 81:8 82:10, 82:11 57:3, 58:24, 63:24, constables [1] - 6:1 different [17] - 8:22, 15:1, course [14] - 5:22, 7:10, dangers [1] - 71:26 64:3, 64:15, 68:16, Constables [1] - 84:8 49:12, 51:23, 57:22, 9:18, 16:21, 16:27, date [4] - 3:9, 22:10, 83:28, 83:29, 90:28 Constabulary [1] - 1:10 66:17, 71:9, 71:17, 17:17, 22:3, 24:21, 22:14, 55:24 command [1] - 59:29 constantly [6] - 76:6, 71:29, 74:23, 74:27, 28:14, 40:8, 71:22, dated [3] - 1:25, 2:1, 2:10 Commander [3] - 56:16, 77:20, 80:3, 81:10, 82:10, 82:11, 86:28, 80:18, 80:19, 88:1 85:12, 85:13 81:18, 83:12 DAY [1] - 91:5 88:19, 88:20 Court [1] - 30:12 day-to-day [2] - 50:17, commander [1] - 8:16 contact [13] - 6:19, 8:18, differently [1] - 50:16 court [2] - 79:16, 79:17 50:19 commencing [1] - 43:25 8:25, 8:28, 9:2, 9:28, difficult [1] - 54:18 courthouse [2] - 23:5, days [8] - 3:8, 4:17, 5:29, comment [4] - 17:19, 16:28, 18:6, 24:17, difficulty [5] - 5:23, 79:17 21:16, 23:30, 31:11 60:13, 72:22, 72:25, 18:6, 23:21, 73:5, 23:14, 26:8, 56:27, courts [1] - 79:11 87:13, 87:30 Commissioner [1] - 78:7 57:20 cover [3] - 19:12, 61:9, Days [5] - 87:19, 87:23, 81:10 contacted [1] - 9:25 DILLON [33] - 4:13, 5:1, 61:19 87:24, 87:29, 87:30 committed [3] - 33:17, contacts [3] - 50:11, 5:4, 15:22, 22:26, 62:17, 68:6 56:14, 56:15 coverage [1] - 7:20 deal [5] - 1:15, 33:24, 24:13, 24:15, 24:17,
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 4
25:1, 25:5, 25:23, 26:3, 73:12, 74:20, 74:22, 23:20, 32:5, 41:23, euro [1] - 65:13 fact [25] - 16:27, 31:18, 26:6, 26:25, 34:24, 77:12, 77:14, 77:21, 42:2, 45:12, 45:13, Europe [1] - 76:4 32:14, 36:21, 38:1, 39:5, 39:24, 40:3, 77:27, 77:30, 78:1, 69:23, 76:8 Evening [2] - 10:20, 49:26, 52:29, 53:10, 44:28, 44:30, 45:1, 78:2, 78:4, 83:4, 83:26, early-morning [1] - 76:8 10:21 53:12, 53:21, 54:20, 45:19, 45:24, 47:3, 84:2, 84:26, 85:6, easier [1] - 88:13 evening [1] - 32:17 54:22, 59:18, 63:4, 47:7, 48:2, 48:4, 56:10, 85:18, 86:26, 87:1, easily [3] - 19:3, 37:19, event [8] - 3:8, 5:20, 7:11, 65:5, 67:9, 67:25, 60:29, 87:9, 87:11, 88:22, 90:29 63:27 14:24, 43:5, 50:30, 74:21, 75:18, 77:12, 90:20, 90:24 Downshire [1] - 61:13 east [1] - 27:11 78:23, 78:24 80:17, 80:21, 81:23, Dillon [3] - 25:13, 35:26, Downward [1] - 12:15 East [1] - 73:4 events [2] - 18:28, 32:17 83:19, 83:24 64:5 Dr [1] - 8:4 eastern [1] - 27:15 evidence [27] - 1:5, 2:9, factually [1] - 89:14 Dingle [4] - 17:7, 17:9, draw [2] - 65:2, 69:30 easy [2] - 19:7, 72:26 2:16, 3:5, 3:26, 4:5, fair [8] - 10:14, 11:21, 17:21, 17:23 dream [1] - 26:18 eat [1] - 62:21 4:18, 12:7, 20:17, 15:4, 24:26, 30:18, direct [1] - 88:14 drew [1] - 65:17 economical [2] - 65:5, 25:16, 31:1, 31:10, 34:15, 42:22, 42:25 directly [4] - 3:17, 17:26, drink [1] - 62:21 65:7 33:8, 40:19, 41:22, fairly [10] - 9:19, 16:28, 31:7, 38:20 drive [4] - 63:24, 81:28, economy [1] - 87:15 42:1, 60:8, 63:30, 29:21, 51:2, 53:11, discern [1] - 70:27 85:4, 85:6 Edenappa [7] - 67:23, 66:18, 71:20, 75:9, 58:20, 70:15, 71:18, disclosed [1] - 1:6 driving [4] - 75:30, 85:30, 68:9, 69:14, 69:20, 75:27, 77:8, 80:19, 78:7, 88:23 discuss [3] - 59:26, 86:3, 86:6 71:11, 71:26, 88:13 82:5, 83:20, 86:13 faith [1] - 11:25 73:12, 84:28 Dromad [1] - 56:3 effect [3] - 52:2, 65:7, evidence-in-chief [3] - false [2] - 18:18, 30:15 discussed [5] - 38:6, drop [1] - 18:11 65:8 80:19, 83:20, 86:13 familiar [3] - 36:18, 43:28, 82:28, 83:20, drove [1] - 84:10 effective [1] - 72:15 exactly [6] - 17:14, 24:24, 36:24, 36:26 84:17 dual [2] - 27:11, 42:23 effectively [2] - 51:12, 41:29, 42:7, 42:21, family [3] - 29:29, 30:9, discussing [2] - 65:22, Dublin [1] - 11:11 61:15 72:24 84:23 69:19 due [1] - 60:11 efficient [2] - 30:22, examination [4] - 3:27, fan [1] - 71:7 discussion [4] - 10:22, Dundalk [74] - 8:30, 9:5, 37:22 8:2, 8:14, 40:5 fanciful [1] - 44:21 64:8, 65:19, 66:1 9:8, 9:9, 9:10, 9:18, effort [1] - 83:13 EXAMINED [14] - 5:1, far [10] - 10:13, 17:21, discussions [2] - 38:28, 9:19, 9:24, 10:5, 10:23, Egan [1] - 11:10 15:24, 19:27, 24:15, 23:21, 32:7, 36:3, 39:3 10:25, 10:28, 11:4, either [12] - 2:23, 10:24, 26:3, 35:1, 40:14, 58:12, 76:11, 76:13, disingenuous [1] - 83:13 13:22, 14:17, 14:24, 14:6, 38:10, 48:24, 41:19, 44:30, 48:1, 76:14, 86:20 disparity [1] - 65:13 15:7, 16:26, 16:28, 57:9, 57:11, 58:30, 61:3, 80:13, 82:24, 87:9 fearing [1] - 27:26 dispense [1] - 38:25 17:2, 17:17, 18:3, 18:6, 63:18, 72:8, 76:11, 86:8 example [10] - 12:8, February [3] - 1:25, 56:1, disposal [1] - 40:9 18:20, 21:12, 21:15, elaborate [1] - 31:27 17:20, 18:23, 18:29, 64:20 disposed [1] - 40:21 21:19, 21:22, 21:26, elsewhere [4] - 18:22, 68:6, 71:1, 74:4, 85:23, February/March [1] - disruptive [2] - 64:29, 28:11, 37:3, 37:4, 18:23, 37:3, 37:9 85:25, 87:28 64:21 65:7 37:15, 38:4, 51:22, emanated [1] - 53:26 exceptions [1] - 84:7 felt [4] - 10:12, 72:15, Dissemination [1] - 12:15 51:23, 51:24, 51:25, emergency [3] - 72:23, exchange [1] - 33:21 77:17, 89:21 dissipated [1] - 53:3 51:30, 52:20, 53:26, 87:22, 87:27 excuse [1] - 89:22 few [9] - 4:17, 34:28, distinct [2] - 15:30, 30:26 54:21, 54:24, 55:17, empires [1] - 15:29 existence [3] - 10:27, 53:2, 64:14, 64:16, distribution [1] - 69:6 55:25, 59:12, 59:23, enable [1] - 4:22 13:16, 42:23 75:28, 84:3, 84:5, 84:6 district [1] - 61:9 60:3, 60:6, 60:11, enabled [1] - 17:12 expect [2] - 16:15, 76:23 figure [1] - 21:9 Division [4] - 48:10, 60:24, 60:27, 61:23, encourage [1] - 65:14 expectation [1] - 60:26 file [6] - 36:17, 36:20, 63:9, 65:8, 68:29, 71:5, 70:17, 89:5, 90:5 end [5] - 8:23, 17:29, expected [1] - 4:5 36:26, 36:29, 41:6, 41:9 division [1] - 70:17 71:9, 76:25, 77:5, 33:21, 50:5, 50:6 expedite [1] - 3:4 filed [1] - 36:12 77:12, 77:21, 77:22, Divisional [2] - 56:16, engineer [1] - 63:5 experience [8] - 16:17, files [2] - 36:11, 41:6 77:24, 78:5, 78:6, 85:12 enlarge [1] - 28:9 18:8, 24:29, 30:18, filling [1] - 81:20 78:12, 80:26, 80:29, divisional [1] - 8:16 entering [1] - 19:9 43:27, 62:12, 69:21, filtered [1] - 12:10 82:9, 82:10, 82:12, documents [1] - 23:29 entice [1] - 64:30 79:25 Finbarr [2] - 14:13, 34:19 82:14, 83:26 domain [1] - 23:4 entitled [1] - 4:19 explain [1] - 83:15 finish [4] - 40:10, 40:12, DURACK [10] - 15:24, don't" [1] - 87:1 entrance [1] - 52:18 explosions [1] - 64:22 51:8, 51:15 15:26, 19:19, 34:28, done [11] - 7:26, 50:15, entry [2] - 55:25, 56:1 explosives [1] - 20:27 finished [2] - 40:7, 51:13 35:1, 35:3, 40:14, 67:3, 69:1, 69:8, 69:17, environment [1] - 52:11 exposed [3] - 23:25, 24:3, Finnegan [2] - 29:19, 40:17, 41:13, 56:8 37:17 72:24, 74:5, 85:20, Eoin [1] - 20:24 29:20 Durack [2] - 15:26, 35:3 expressing [1] - 68:21 [1] 88:28 equal [1] - 38:9 firm - 28:5 During [1] - 80:19 extend [2] - 2:27, 3:1 [18] door [2] - 15:18, 52:10 equally [3] - 16:14, 37:21, first - 4:18, 5:7, 7:16, during [8] - 7:10, 23:20, doubt [3] - 7:11, 69:15, 38:9 extended [3] - 2:13, 2:21, 9:28, 13:30, 14:9, 34:8, 42:5, 42:11, 3:22 18:27, 26:27, 29:6, 83:23 erect [1] - 89:2 53:25, 59:11, 62:9 extension [1] - 3:30 33:26, 39:16, 45:2, Down [1] - 61:16 Eric [1] - 13:17 duties [3] - 5:29, 56:3, extensive [1] - 71:21 48:4, 48:23, 48:29, down [53] - 14:30, 20:2, escort [3] - 85:6, 85:23, 71:22 21:12, 21:25, 38:11, 85:28 extent [1] - 61:8 49:3, 56:1, 84:30 Duty [2] - 55:25, 56:1 firstly [1] - 61:8 50:24, 51:30, 52:1, escorted [4] - 64:16, extra [1] - 86:30 duty [4] - 55:26, 57:27, 52:19, 52:26, 53:12, 64:18, 85:1, 85:5 eye [2] - 54:26, 63:30 fish [1] - 57:22 58:1, 58:2 fishing [2] - 17:7, 17:9 53:17, 57:7, 57:11, especially [1] - 72:17 Fitzsimons [6] - 34:3, 57:19, 59:9, 59:19, essential [1] - 82:30 F E 34:7, 36:4, 36:9, 40:30 59:26, 60:16, 61:21, establish [1] - 9:2 61:23, 63:8, 64:13, face [7] - 70:16, 82:28, five [5] - 17:15, 25:7, e-mail [1] - 90:18 established [1] - 9:17 64:14, 65:15, 68:25, 83:1, 83:3 25:12, 39:12, 83:9 Eamon [1] - 62:26 establishment [2] - 19:7, 70:30, 71:1, 71:3, face-to-face [3] - 82:28, Flanagan [3] - 1:26, 2:12, early [10] - 6:2, 21:4, 62:3 71:15, 71:16, 72:13, 83:1, 83:3 3:11
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 5 flanagan [2] - 2:1, 2:26 62:19 27:10, 45:10 32:25, 80:18 impossible [2] - 32:18, flight [1] - 87:22 full-time [3] - 62:18, grade [1] - 11:16 heighten [1] - 57:16 70:21 floor [1] - 51:13 62:19 graded [2] - 11:18, 11:19 heightened [2] - 56:30, impression [6] - 57:8, Fly [7] - 87:12, 87:18, Fulton [13] - 2:28, 3:24, grading [1] - 11:18 82:2 74:16, 74:18, 74:24, 87:19, 87:23, 87:24, 3:26, 12:22, 13:8, 18:7, granted [3] - 2:4, 2:7, helicopter [2] - 76:8, 84:4 74:26, 75:4 87:29 20:1, 20:6, 38:19, 3:15 helicopters [7] - 75:23, in-box [1] - 90:7 fly [1] - 87:14 38:29, 39:9, 40:18, 45:2 grateful [1] - 4:24 75:29, 76:1, 76:5, 76:6, in-tray [1] - 69:5 flying [1] - 76:6 Fulton/Peter [1] - 3:24 great [3] - 6:17, 7:16, 87:12, 87:14 incident [11] - 9:12, 13:4, focus [1] - 51:24 function [5] - 6:5, 8:9, 75:26 heliport [1] - 76:3 13:15, 22:20, 22:23, follow [5] - 19:1, 42:27, 29:6, 29:8, 35:23 greater [1] - 61:18 help [5] - 6:14, 6:23, 23:4, 23:6, 23:8, 38:2, 70:6, 73:27, 75:20 functions [2] - 15:30, greatly [2] - 26:28, 48:5 25:17, 84:16, 90:28 38:5, 77:4 follow-up [1] - 75:20 27:14 grew [1] - 41:1 helpful [3] - 34:8, 40:23, incidents [2] - 29:7, followed [2] - 3:21, 79:7 ground [5] - 28:5, 32:10, 41:9 64:22 following [9] - 31:10, G 32:14, 86:16 helping [1] - 72:30 inclined [2] - 49:25, 54:21 33:9, 38:11, 59:7, groups [1] - 33:14 Herald [1] - 10:20 include [3] - 2:14, 2:28, game [1] - 18:29 68:17, 79:13, 80:17, guard [5] - 3:28, 11:7, Hickey [2] - 14:14, 34:20 3:1 garda [11] - 9:17, 11:4, 86:2 11:9, 13:24, 76:16 High [1] - 30:12 included [1] - 50:14 17:25, 17:26, 18:27, FOLLOWING [1] - 91:5 Guards [1] - 72:28 high [4] - 33:12, 70:15, including [1] - 1:9 18:30, 37:6, 37:8, FOLLOWS [19] - 1:1, guards [17] - 8:28, 11:9, 88:24, 89:23 inconvenience [2] - 37:10, 38:16, 78:10 1:22, 5:2, 15:24, 19:27, 50:21, 54:8, 54:30, highly [2] - 34:4, 34:5 25:26 Garda [28] - 2:17, 5:22, 24:15, 25:21, 26:4, 58:25, 66:3, 66:5, Hill [1] - 61:20 incorrect [2] - 11:24, 7:7, 11:2, 15:27, 29:4, 35:1, 39:20, 40:15, 66:11, 66:16, 72:11, hilltop [1] - 76:7 11:26 29:13, 29:17, 35:4, 41:19, 44:30, 47:1, 74:9, 78:16, 80:25, himself [3] - 6:15, 49:21, increased [2] - 62:3, 36:15, 37:15, 38:5, 48:2, 61:4, 80:13, 82:15, 84:27 49:29 86:30 50:8, 52:11, 53:14, 82:24, 87:9 hint [1] - 54:12 indeed [8] - 11:27, 19:19, 54:21, 54:26, 56:3, follows [3] - 1:24, 13:7, HIS [1] - 1:22 41:13, 56:13, 79:7, 56:5, 61:7, 76:25, 77:5, H 31:12 hit [1] - 90:7 88:25, 89:25, 90:28 78:30, 80:26, 80:29, habit [2] - 70:29, 77:12 fool [1] - 69:16 hmm [5] - 53:29, 61:26, independent [1] - 17:18 80:30, 81:10, 81:13 Hackballscross [2] - FOR [1] - 46:3 61:28, 63:14, 75:8 indicate [1] - 32:4 gardaí [1] - 8:26 14:14, 34:20 Force [2] - 26:29, 90:5 holiday [1] - 30:16 indicated [1] - 31:30 Gardaí [2] - 17:5, 56:6 half [3] - 58:15, 83:14, force [1] - 49:1 home [2] - 17:10, 57:25 indication [1] - 57:4 gate [2] - 15:12, 15:18 84:22 Ford [1] - 55:18 honest [4] - 6:11, 30:16, indisputable [1] - 70:9 gathered [10] - 10:27, halfway [1] - 61:20 forget [1] - 66:28 43:20, 63:7 individual [10] - 8:13, 12:5, 12:6, 12:7, 12:8, Hamilton [1] - 61:12 forgotten [1] - 30:5 honestly [6] - 14:2, 14:5, 11:5, 13:18, 14:6, 16:6, 28:8, 38:1, 38:2, handiest [1] - 88:17 Forkhill [2] - 61:12, 87:28 20:29, 33:7, 41:11, 45:4 16:26, 17:14, 37:14, 38:10 handlers [1] - 42:27 form [1] - 51:1 hope [1] - 16:12 43:4, 78:13, 89:16 gatherers [1] - 37:28 handling [1] - 23:24 formal [6] - 8:12, 29:8, hoping [2] - 73:20, 73:21 individuals [4] - 30:2, gathering [5] - 19:8, hands [1] - 72:28 66:4, 66:10, 72:18, horrible [1] - 7:11 33:25, 36:12, 78:14 21:27, 35:19, 35:24, hanging [1] - 63:20 84:29 Hospital [1] - 8:3 inform [1] - 8:9 62:13 Hanna [2] - 29:28, 30:9 formally [1] - 8:3 hour [6] - 58:15, 83:5, informal [3] - 66:6, 73:13, general [18] - 42:22, formed [2] - 57:8, 84:19 happy [2] - 33:3, 40:3 85:9 53:16, 54:16, 54:28, 84:22 former [2] - 1:9, 4:15 happy' [1] - 35:28 informally [1] - 29:14 58:8, 58:17, 58:21, hours [1] - 33:17 hard [1] - 7:18 informant [17] - 10:23, forms [1] - 81:20 58:27, 58:28, 59:21, house [2] - 20:27, 21:1 hardy [1] - 69:16 10:28, 13:14, 20:13, fortnight [3] - 50:25, 60:20, 63:17, 73:13, hundred [1] - 45:14 Harmon [2] - 47:8, 59:2 20:14, 20:15, 21:24, 63:10, 77:30 74:26, 75:22, 79:29, Hurst [3] - 3:2, 3:7, 4:1 HARMON [1] - 48:1 22:11, 22:15, 23:20, forwards [1] - 51:17 83:7, 86:24 four [3] - 65:3, 71:8, Harry [23] - 2:18, 48:24, 23:21, 23:25, 28:11, generally [5] - 9:25, 9:28, I 48:27, 48:29, 49:5, 42:24, 42:30, 43:7, 88:16 15:9, 18:26, 59:3 [4] 49:7, 52:15, 59:27, Ian [1] - 3:6 43:11 Frank - 33:11, 52:13, generated [1] - 33:13 55:9, 56:22 59:28, 60:10, 60:11, idea [1] - 20:12 informants [2] - 23:15, gentleman [2] - 27:26, 69:1, 70:15, 70:18, ideal [1] - 40:8 42:22 Fred [1] - 2:7 49:13 74:10, 88:4, 88:23, [2] identified [1] - 38:7 information [22] - 11:17, Freddie - 1:27, 3:11 gentlemen [4] - 1:3, 88:27, 88:29, 89:9, identify [2] - 7:29, 8:4 11:22, 11:25, 12:18, Freddy [1] - 1:16 19:30, 48:23, 49:7 89:14, 90:1, 90:7 identifying [2] - 8:6, 18:18, 19:9, 23:11, free [1] - 51:28 genuine [1] - 53:28 have.. [1] - 90:11 38:12 24:21, 29:20, 30:1, freedom [1] - 69:29 geographically [1] - HAVING [3] - 5:1, 26:3, identity [2] - 1:6, 70:10 31:15, 31:25, 33:4, freely [1] - 27:30 61:10 48:1 ignored [1] - 67:28 35:7, 38:29, 41:24, frequent [1] - 9:20 Gibson [2] - 29:28, 30:4 Hawkshaw [1] - 29:16 ill [1] - 87:23 57:14, 69:25, 70:26, frequently [2] - 83:19, given [12] - 1:11, 2:16, head [1] - 36:5 illegal [3] - 32:3, 69:26, 77:13, 79:24, 84:16 84:17 6:22, 11:25, 31:17, headline [1] - 10:19 70:2 informed [2] - 32:30, Friend [2] - 39:8, 81:9 37:26, 68:5, 73:9, 74:1, Headquarters [3] - 36:14, imagine [2] - 63:10, 77:30 76:18 friendly [1] - 49:13 79:5, 82:5, 90:8 36:22, 90:6 immediately [1] - 7:21 informing [1] - 73:26 friendship [1] - 11:4 God [1] - 27:26 hear [3] - 21:21, 36:28, immunity [1] - 3:15 infrequent [1] - 9:4 froing [1] - 50:22 God-fearing [1] - 27:26 38:3 implementation [1] - Ingram/Ian [2] - 3:2, 4:1 front [5] - 5:18, 15:19, golf [1] - 18:29 heard [8] - 7:15, 11:24, 89:26 initial [1] - 5:24 52:5, 52:7, 52:10 gossip [4] - 6:22, 7:26, 11:28, 34:6, 55:17, important [7] - 1:9, 69:7, injured [1] - 16:19 fuel [1] - 87:14 27:30, 49:22 60:8, 77:9 72:11, 72:21, 72:25, injustice [1] - 71:23 full [5] - 2:2, 2:13, 62:18, Gough [5] - 6:30, 20:10, hearing [4] - 4:21, 4:25, 72:28, 78:8 inquire [1] - 54:2
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 6 inquiries [2] - 8:2, 17:27 79:13, 79:14 kettle [1] - 57:22 leave [7] - 15:11, 25:11, 60:18, 68:26, 72:19, inquiry [1] - 15:20 Investigatory [1] - 18:12 Kevin [5] - 3:24, 12:22, 25:30, 39:29, 45:22, 78:13, 80:24 Inquiry [1] - 80:24 involve [1] - 66:3 18:7, 20:1, 20:6 68:3, 85:6 loop [2] - 39:5, 39:10 inside [1] - 67:27 involved [22] - 7:23, 9:12, key [2] - 66:15, 70:18 leaves [1] - 25:5 Lord [2] - 29:28, 30:4 inspector [1] - 20:3 20:17, 21:3, 23:24, kill [1] - 62:25 leaving [7] - 25:14, 62:23, lose [2] - 6:15, 17:23 Inspector [22] - 5:28, 31:16, 31:19, 32:11, killed [6] - 9:14, 10:9, 63:18, 68:29, 77:21, loses [1] - 83:16 5:30, 7:3, 20:5, 23:15, 35:16, 52:30, 58:29, 10:10, 16:19, 17:2, 80:21, 81:5 loss [1] - 85:17 27:4, 48:11, 48:17, 67:9, 67:14, 70:3, 17:16 led [2] - 38:5, 79:14 lost [3] - 15:2, 19:11, 50:12, 55:5, 55:26, 75:17, 75:25, 76:27, killing [1] - 9:13 left [8] - 15:13, 24:25, 53:25 56:3, 58:2, 58:3, 62:1, 79:10, 81:27, 85:15, killings [2] - 7:23, 31:27 52:22, 68:30, 71:5, Loughgall [2] - 88:24, 62:4, 70:5, 78:3, 79:16, 86:17, 87:16 Kilnasaggart [4] - 56:2, 71:6, 77:16, 77:22 89:18 79:19, 80:16 involvement [4] - 7:6, 64:9, 66:28, 68:1 legal [5] - 1:28, 3:5, 3:27, Louis [2] - 17:1, 17:15 instance [1] - 81:15 20:21, 35:15, 74:12 kindly [3] - 4:25, 25:11, 4:3, 4:4 low [2] - 66:14, 70:18 instruction [1] - 72:5 involving [1] - 58:25 45:21 LEHANE [5] - 19:23, lucky [1] - 79:2 instructions [2] - 42:26, IRA [41] - 2:18, 13:8, Kingdom [1] - 63:1 41:17, 80:13, 80:15, lunch [1] - 32:6 86:14 17:11, 17:20, 20:9, Kintyre.. [1] - 41:4 82:18 LUNCH [2] - 46:3, 47:1 integrity [1] - 6:17 20:17, 20:18, 20:22, Knife' [5] - 2:15, 2:24, length [3] - 43:15, 64:24, Lurgan [1] - 6:27 intelligence [71] - 10:26, 21:3, 21:9, 23:25, 3:13, 3:16, 3:19 78:26 lying [1] - 75:14 10:29, 11:15, 11:16, 29:30, 30:19, 30:23, knowing [4] - 22:8, 78:20, Leo [2] - 14:10, 34:17 11:19, 11:20, 11:29, 30:26, 30:28, 31:16, 86:16 less [2] - 58:18, 71:7 M 12:1, 12:3, 12:5, 12:7, 34:10, 34:14, 37:21, knowledge [18] - 17:24, lest [1] - 19:16 12:8, 12:11, 12:14, 41:24, 41:26, 41:27, 32:21, 33:4, 35:29, letter [2] - 1:25, 2:1 macQUILL [1] - 82:22 12:20, 12:21, 12:24, 42:15, 42:23, 45:6, 35:30, 44:3, 44:5, 44:8, level [7] - 28:16, 28:18, Magistrate's [1] - 79:17 13:2, 13:15, 16:6, 57:6, 62:12, 62:27, 44:9, 44:12, 44:20, 29:21, 29:24, 33:12, mail [1] - 90:18 16:10, 16:23, 17:12, 63:16, 64:28, 69:21, 44:22, 49:20, 64:13, 79:28 main [10] - 14:28, 15:6, 17:21, 18:2, 18:9, 70:9, 70:21, 74:25, 71:18, 74:9, 74:10, liable [1] - 3:16 17:2, 17:10, 19:3, 18:10, 18:14, 18:16, 76:24, 78:9, 78:27, 84:10 liaised [1] - 76:28 19:10, 71:3, 71:5, 71:9, 20:21, 21:27, 22:3, 78:29, 80:4, 81:11 known [30] - 6:15, 6:18, liaising [1] - 72:10 84:4 22:10, 22:16, 23:16, Ireland [2] - 10:9, 53:24 8:20, 12:21, 20:6, 20:9, liaison [2] - 56:4, 59:25 Mains [2] - 88:4, 88:6 23:20, 23:22, 23:26, isolated [1] - 19:16 21:29, 21:30, 22:7, life [4] - 36:2, 42:24, 43:1, maintained [4] - 28:30, 23:29, 24:4, 24:6, 28:7, issue [2] - 40:4, 69:20 32:2, 33:13, 41:26, 53:25 36:13, 36:14, 41:3 28:14, 28:22, 28:25, issues [4] - 50:17, 50:18, 58:30, 62:10, 65:23, lifespan [1] - 23:19 man [27] - 6:11, 6:14, 28:26, 28:27, 35:16, 65:16 65:27, 65:28, 68:22, lightly [4] - 43:27, 44:3, 6:17, 6:21, 6:24, 8:29, 35:18, 35:25, 35:26, item [2] - 28:7, 36:24 70:9, 70:13, 71:13, 44:10, 49:20 12:22, 13:16, 17:1, 37:28, 38:1, 38:6, 38:7, itself [2] - 9:2, 61:19 74:3, 75:22, 77:27, likely [5] - 18:18, 19:16, 20:9, 20:17, 20:22, 38:10, 38:13, 40:20, 78:14, 78:17, 78:18, 44:16, 79:24, 85:14 21:7, 22:6, 24:18, 42:5, 42:12, 42:15, 27:29, 28:4, 29:18, J 89:6 limited [5] - 2:4, 2:8, 2:22, 42:18, 43:2, 43:3, 45:6, 3:22, 42:24 41:22, 41:26, 42:23, 62:12, 70:26, 80:3, jeopardised [1] - 2:6 43:18, 44:4, 44:8, L line [6] - 10:3, 50:30, job [11] - 10:17, 62:18, 81:11 51:1, 64:23, 66:25, 48:28, 49:22, 60:1 62:19, 72:10, 83:10, ladies [1] - 1:3 intelligence-gathering 66:27 manage [1] - 65:26 [1] - 21:27 83:22, 84:15, 85:20 lady [1] - 9:13 managed [1] - 40:4 lines [2] - 9:30, 10:1 intended [2] - 30:11, 79:1 Joe [1] - 11:10 Lady [1] - 29:28 management [1] - 35:24 links [1] - 63:6 interest [2] - 21:24, 21:27 jog [1] - 42:19 lain [1] - 66:30 manner [1] - 4:17 Lisburn [4] - 5:24, 5:28, joined [3] - 5:9, 26:29, land [1] - 86:17 interested [2] - 58:18, 6:3, 6:9 manpower [3] - 74:25, 75:19 48:29 language [1] - 72:17 list [5] - 5:18, 5:21, 28:20, 78:26 joint [1] - 17:3 large [1] - 67:25 interests [1] - 3:29 31:2, 69:6 map [2] - 69:2, 76:13 interfere [1] - 26:23 Jonesboro [1] - 61:25 largely [1] - 87:14 [1] listed [1] - 31:2 maps - 68:23 internationally [1] - 30:24 Joseph [1] - 11:10 larger [1] - 68:10 [8] listener [1] - 49:29 March - 7:5, 8:15, interrupted [1] - 51:12 journal [1] - 64:6 Larry [1] - 11:7 50:29, 57:1, 57:23, lived [1] - 62:20 interruption [1] - 52:17 journeys [1] - 84:18 last [5] - 14:17, 42:26, 57:24, 64:20, 87:17 lives [4] - 13:4, 16:15, judge [2] - 30:12, 30:14 42:28, 89:25, 90:12 interviewed [4] - 20:10, 22:21, 23:12 Mark [1] - 82:26 20:20, 24:19, 42:1 July [1] - 2:21 lasting [1] - 11:3 marked [1] - 68:23 living [3] - 9:16, 21:12, June [2] - 2:12, 41:4 lastly [1] - 45:8 interviews [1] - 3:14 42:23 Market [1] - 61:20 Justice [2] - 29:28, 30:4 late [15] - 6:2, 7:10, 8:25, intimate [1] - 74:10 loaf [1] - 81:29 Martin [2] - 3:2, 3:30 justice [1] - 7:19 21:4, 31:25, 33:10, introduced [1] - 25:28 local [2] - 64:13, 65:8 matter [17] - 1:15, 14:17, [1] 34:3, 41:23, 41:27, 22:27, 25:7, 26:7, invariably - 14:28 locally [2] - 30:24, 37:23 44:1, 45:12, 45:13, 31:24, 32:27, 38:30, investigate [1] - 68:2 K location [1] - 85:4 investigated [2] - 16:5, 62:26, 69:23, 76:8 39:27, 44:12, 49:13, Keady [1] - 83:29 locations [1] - 18:28 16:7 laterally [1] - 23:23 49:19, 86:4, 87:12, Keeley [7] - 3:6, 3:24, Look [3] - 59:1, 85:6, investigating [2] - 8:1, latitude [1] - 62:22 87:20, 88:1, 89:25 20:6, 21:23, 21:30, 86:30 16:3 Laverty [2] - 38:28, 39:3 matters [5] - 12:12, 22:11, 41:22 look [7] - 31:1, 31:3, investigation [12] - 9:15, lay [1] - 86:16 13:23, 15:27, 45:1, Keeley/Kevin [1] - 2:28 55:24, 67:30, 69:14, 11:8, 17:3, 17:26, leading [1] - 56:30 87:11 keep [2] - 63:30, 66:2 85:2, 90:4 17:28, 18:24, 22:4, leak [1] - 38:4 McCabe [4] - 55:11, keeping [1] - 54:26 looked [3] - 11:29, 86:7, 70:3, 74:13, 75:18, learn [1] - 49:25 55:12, 56:22, 78:15 kept [3] - 29:21, 39:10, 89:2 75:26, 87:16 least [6] - 1:7, 28:18, McCabe's [1] - 52:13 88:7 looking [9] - 28:20, 64:8, 66:19, 83:14 [4] investigations [2] - 49:28, 50:18, 50:19, McGuinness - 61:3,
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 7
61:6, 61:7, 80:11 67:22, 73:2, 73:7, 78:17 40:19, 68:29, 69:5, 33:11, 43:15, 44:3, 48:11, 48:16, 48:20, mean [48] - 10:1, 10:7, MI5 [3] - 21:25, 22:16, 76:8, 90:25, 90:27 44:9, 44:13, 44:14, 49:4, 49:27, 50:7, 53:5, 14:2, 18:16, 18:28, 42:12 Morning [1] - 1:3 44:20, 55:9, 56:22 53:22, 55:26, 57:2, 23:28, 24:5, 34:5, Michael [7] - 1:25, 15:26, morning/midday [1] - Murray's [1] - 52:13 58:7, 58:8, 61:9, 61:11, 34:13, 37:17, 49:23, 35:3, 54:30, 55:2, 55:4, 44:1 must [3] - 8:13, 25:25, 61:13, 61:20, 62:2, 51:7, 52:18, 53:22, 78:16 mortar [2] - 23:5, 62:2 75:28 62:4, 62:22, 63:5, 54:15, 56:27, 57:3, Mick [3] - 29:17, 29:18, mortuary [1] - 8:3 my.. [1] - 37:4 63:18, 63:21, 64:13, 57:18, 63:21, 64:26, 29:19 most [6] - 48:9, 51:26, Myles [1] - 29:16 65:8, 68:24, 71:10, 65:14, 67:28, 69:24, mick [1] - 29:20 53:23, 55:15, 56:21, 77:17, 77:20, 79:16, 69:29, 71:20, 72:4, microphone [3] - 29:10, 64:10 N 80:21, 80:22, 81:5, 72:10, 73:18, 74:1, 48:12, 48:13 mostly [5] - 9:3, 16:2, 81:6, 81:10, 81:13, Nairac [3] - 40:25, 40:26, 75:12, 75:15, 77:1, microphones [1] - 26:8 35:6, 50:22, 51:23 81:17, 81:28, 82:3, 40:30 78:11, 79:22, 81:26, midday [2] - 33:11, 43:26 mount [6] - 58:30, 59:2, 82:6, 82:8, 82:11, naive [1] - 70:14 82:11, 83:3, 84:1, middle [1] - 60:1 66:7, 66:12, 74:25, 75:3 82:13, 83:26, 83:28, name [19] - 2:6, 3:16, 84:27, 85:2, 86:6, might [29] - 7:22, 12:13, mounted [3] - 31:16, 84:24, 88:8, 88:9, 89:5 87:19, 88:15, 89:6, 22:26, 27:7, 29:17, 74:28, 74:29 3:24, 4:6, 5:22, 13:27, news [1] - 7:15 13:28, 14:2, 14:7, 89:30, 90:12 29:30, 34:14, 53:12, mounting [1] - 74:8 newspaper [2] - 1:7, 15:26, 19:29, 30:15, means [5] - 12:14, 12:17, 54:26, 57:4, 63:16, move [4] - 20:2, 23:6, 10:19 50:23, 50:28, 83:1 64:1, 64:25, 65:20, 23:10, 86:12 35:3, 77:1, 77:9, 80:18, newspapers [1] - 14:1 82:26 meant [3] - 9:19, 62:23, 66:14, 66:17, 67:30, moved [2] - 8:27, 45:11 Newton [1] - 61:12 named [3] - 14:4, 35:27, 72:22 73:27, 74:9, 74:29, movement [6] - 65:9, Newtownhamilton [1] - 38:18 measure [2] - 67:12, 76:19, 83:8, 84:25, 65:10, 69:29, 78:5, 71:11 87:15 88:13, 88:17, 88:28, 87:26, 87:30 namely [1] - 60:9 next [9] - 1:15, 25:8, names [1] - 14:9 media [1] - 65:17 89:17, 89:18 movements [3] - 53:20, 26:25, 40:7, 55:30, national [1] - 12:9 meet [10] - 9:29, 13:23, miles [1] - 76:12 63:16, 70:27 84:27, 85:21, 87:1, nationally [1] - 30:24 15:16, 37:9, 49:4, military [3] - 50:20, 64:30, moving [1] - 56:29 90:24 nature [4] - 5:29, 7:24, 52:22, 56:12, 60:24, 74:5 MR [74] - 1:18, 4:9, 4:13, night [3] - 6:3, 76:8, 90:2 83:14, 85:4 Mill [1] - 76:3 5:1, 5:4, 15:22, 15:24, 57:17, 73:11 nobody [1] - 17:24 meeting [11] - 7:6, 15:10, Mills [2] - 55:23, 55:30 15:26, 19:19, 19:23, NDD [1] - 12:14 noises [3] - 32:19, 43:24, 29:9, 52:22, 56:6, mills [1] - 10:18 19:25, 19:27, 19:29, nearest [1] - 76:11 44:1 57:21, 59:16, 59:20, mind [8] - 39:18, 48:13, 22:26, 22:29, 23:3, necessarily [12] - 22:5, Nolan [1] - 56:4 73:4, 82:29, 84:26 49:7, 54:5, 54:10, 23:10, 24:9, 24:13, 32:16, 66:6, 66:22, nondescript [2] - 86:7, meetings [13] - 9:5, 72:20, 73:17, 77:18 24:15, 24:17, 25:1, 67:2, 67:4, 67:9, 67:14, 86:11 29:12, 37:3, 50:10, minded [1] - 49:24 25:5, 25:23, 26:3, 26:6, 67:21, 67:28, 78:14, none [3] - 24:19, 33:29, 83:25 50:25, 51:27, 55:16, minibus [1] - 17:9 26:15, 26:20, 26:25, 34:2 necessary [4] - 25:6, 64:10, 64:11, 82:30, minutes [6] - 25:7, 25:12, 34:24, 34:28, 35:1, normally [3] - 58:5, 84:29, 85:10, 85:15 25:27, 39:12, 75:29, 35:3, 38:27, 39:5, 39:7, 25:26, 29:15, 40:9 58:28, 83:4 member [6] - 5:20, 5:22, 83:9 39:14, 39:24, 39:27, necessitated [1] - 67:4 north [7] - 9:15, 10:24, 11:2, 62:27, 62:29, misread [1] - 57:30 40:3, 40:14, 40:17, necessity [1] - 80:2 14:7, 18:5, 65:16, 77:14 [6] mistake [1] - 28:10 41:13, 41:17, 41:19, need - 25:7, 66:3, 66:13, 79:7 members [14] - 1:8, 1:9, 76:13, 76:26, 82:3, misunderstand [1] - 41:21, 44:24, 44:28, North [1] - 52:12 1:10, 2:17, 4:15, 4:24, 34:13 44:30, 45:1, 45:19, 82:28 northern [1] - 9:14 7:17, 25:10, 25:30, needed [3] - 78:29, 79:3, misunderstanding [1] - 45:24, 47:3, 47:7, 48:2, Northern [2] - 10:9, 53:23 29:4, 29:13, 33:30, 35:15 48:4, 56:8, 56:10, 89:22 notes [1] - 88:21 45:21, 50:8 needs [1] - 5:5 mobile [5] - 26:9, 26:12, 60:29, 61:3, 61:6, nothing [5] - 7:27, 17:29, memory [5] - 42:19, 51:2, 26:13, 26:15, 26:22 80:11, 80:13, 80:15, Neil [1] - 19:29 53:15, 59:4, 60:20 57:4, 59:8, 68:11 mode [2] - 36:26, 84:4 82:18, 82:20, 82:22, Nesbitt [11] - 47:8, 48:4, notice [2] - 73:27, 75:3 men [3] - 8:4, 31:16, 55:26, 56:3, 61:7, mole [6] - 7:23, 10:23, 82:24, 82:26, 87:5, noticeable [1] - 32:1 75:10 10:25, 16:22, 38:4, 87:9, 87:11, 90:20, 80:15, 80:19, 82:26, notify [1] - 4:4 mention [4] - 3:30, 28:7, 76:24 90:24 87:11, 90:27 November [1] - 55:25 45:25, 58:23 [1] NESBITT [1] - 48:1 moment [2] - 21:23, MS - 90:16 nuisance [4] - 18:15, mentioned [27] - 2:9, 49:17 MSX [6] - 68:16, 89:30, never [31] - 10:24, 13:18, 18:16, 23:17, 40:20 2:15, 2:24, 2:29, 3:2, 14:6, 14:20, 16:17, Monaghan [1] - 56:11 90:2, 90:5, 90:12 number [25] - 5:5, 5:30, 3:19, 11:5, 13:27, 16:25, 18:3, 21:16, Monaghan" [1] - 55:27 Mull [1] - 41:4 6:27, 8:30, 12:28, 13:28, 13:29, 14:1, 23:28, 24:19, 35:20, Monday [12] - 57:23, murder [13] - 11:8, 16:4, 14:21, 17:7, 17:8, 18:9, 14:7, 18:7, 28:26, 30:7, 57:24, 59:8, 60:7, 18:23, 20:24, 30:9, 35:21, 36:2, 36:30, 19:7, 26:26, 28:21, 40:17, 40:22, 55:9, 60:10, 60:18, 68:29, 34:8, 40:25, 40:29, 38:7, 50:3, 52:8, 54:7, 28:25, 31:2, 31:4, 60:21, 69:19, 77:2, 70:6, 73:17, 73:19, 43:25, 44:2, 75:26, 54:19, 57:18, 58:17, 31:16, 33:17, 33:24, 77:3, 80:18, 81:8, 73:20, 74:15 76:12, 79:1 72:15, 77:6, 77:22, 55:13, 64:22, 65:1, 83:20, 85:23, 86:13 83:5, 86:25, 87:2, 88:8 monitoring [1] - 63:16 murdered [2] - 30:3, 30:5 71:29, 75:10, 79:29, Message [1] - 90:14 Newcastle [1] - 48:10 monthly [4] - 29:9, 29:11, murders [17] - 2:18, 7:12, 82:27 message [1] - 90:16 29:12 29:27, 30:7, 31:15, Newry [73] - 8:1, 8:27, numbers [1] - 5:18 Messrs [1] - 1:25 9:6, 10:6, 10:10, 10:12, months [1] - 74:20 32:5, 33:12, 33:17, met [18] - 8:20, 9:3, 38:3, 45:5, 70:3, 74:13, 12:25, 13:20, 14:6, MOONEY [2] - 1:18, 4:9 O 11:12, 13:18, 15:15, 74:15, 75:5, 75:11, 16:4, 17:2, 18:6, 19:3, Mooney [1] - 1:20 18:23, 24:19, 29:13, 75:29, 88:2 19:5, 20:2, 20:18, o'clock [7] - 40:8, 40:10, Moran [1] - 9:13 36:2, 48:29, 49:3, Murphy's [1] - 58:25 21:14, 23:5, 24:24, 45:25, 45:28, 45:29, Morley [1] - 20:24 49:14, 54:30, 55:5, Murray [11] - 31:26, 33:1, 24:25, 38:11, 48:10, 90:24, 91:3 morning [8] - 4:14, 25:24,
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 8
O'Driscoll [1] - 29:18 47:7, 49:7, 49:11, otherwise [1] - 33:7 77:26, 78:2, 81:20, 81:11, 82:10, 85:21, obey [1] - 42:26 49:24, 51:3, 51:4, outside [2] - 6:19, 67:6 84:3, 84:5, 85:13 85:22 obligations [1] - 4:4 52:26, 53:23, 55:4, overall [1] - 8:19 per [1] - 59:27 police [15] - 10:6, 10:8, obliged [3] - 4:9, 39:14, 55:23, 56:14, 56:15, overheard [1] - 32:20 percent [1] - 45:14 14:18, 16:18, 17:8, 87:5 59:29, 64:8, 64:26, overlooking [1] - 66:28 perhaps [3] - 1:6, 16:6, 19:9, 24:27, 30:3, observation [2] - 1:4, 65:1, 65:4, 66:28, overseeing [1] - 35:24 70:25 43:19, 52:12, 53:25, 67:5 70:30, 71:8, 71:15, overt [1] - 66:14 period [6] - 34:8, 42:11, 75:24, 77:16, 78:5, observed [1] - 63:27 71:16, 74:22, 75:24, overtake [1] - 86:3 56:30, 64:23, 66:19, 78:10 obtain [1] - 70:26 76:3, 78:6, 83:12, 86:9, Owen [5] - 13:24, 33:27, 69:27 policemen [1] - 16:15 obviously [11] - 31:18, 86:10, 87:11, 87:22, 77:5, 78:17, 80:16 periphery [1] - 54:25 policy [1] - 53:6 32:10, 33:1, 62:10, 88:15, 89:29, 90:12 own [22] - 1:11, 11:29, permanent [1] - 19:14 popular [1] - 78:7 63:27, 69:7, 72:1, 75:1, one-sixth [1] - 10:8 12:11, 14:18, 14:20, permission [1] - 68:5 Portadown [1] - 6:27 79:22, 80:24, 81:12 ones [2] - 78:17, 85:15 17:28, 19:1, 30:26, person [11] - 2:5, 3:26, portion [1] - 61:15 occasion [12] - 2:15, onwards [1] - 32:6 49:11, 51:20, 51:21, 6:10, 9:25, 15:15, position [2] - 4:7, 22:27 2:16, 3:23, 13:30, open [5] - 9:30, 49:24, 51:25, 53:27, 55:17, 15:20, 24:19, 35:27, possession [2] - 3:6, 29:14, 32:26, 57:11, 56:28, 62:23, 66:3 62:29, 63:11, 63:12, 85:18, 88:29, 89:10 79:23 64:8, 64:17, 67:29, opened [2] - 15:13, 15:18 64:13, 72:1, 85:22, 86:1 personal [9] - 2:6, 34:11, possibility [6] - 7:22, 81:30, 86:27 operate [2] - 30:27, 69:21 55:21, 57:16, 72:12, 10:23, 38:6, 38:9, occasions [10] - 2:9, operated [3] - 15:28, P 72:22, 72:25, 78:7, 38:13, 69:11 2:23, 2:28, 3:2, 8:20, 30:26, 37:23 83:16 possible [5] - 40:6, 41:8, 37:9, 38:12, 55:3, operating [2] - 37:23, page [1] - 31:21 personalities [2] - 76:30, 69:8, 77:7, 83:18 55:13, 68:4 37:24 paid [1] - 58:7 86:17 possibly [3] - 38:30, occurred [2] - 29:27, 70:4 operation [25] - 17:18, paramilitary [1] - 33:14 personality [1] - 70:18 45:13, 82:9 OCTOBER [2] - 1:1, 91:6 21:17, 32:8, 58:24, park [2] - 15:8, 52:4 personally [3] - 14:6, posting [1] - 5:24 odd [2] - 66:29, 86:27 58:29, 59:1, 59:2, 59:4, parked [1] - 54:27 72:15, 77:11 potential [2] - 24:27, 77:7 OF [1] - 91:6 59:21, 59:27, 60:20, Parliament [1] - 14:1 personnel [1] - 72:8 potentially [1] - 77:20 of' [1] - 33:12 64:29, 65:28, 66:7, part [16] - 7:8, 7:17, perspective [1] - 49:28 pound [1] - 65:13 offence [5] - 17:25, 66:8, 66:9, 66:13, 35:18, 50:12, 54:7, Peter [7] - 2:28, 3:6, 20:6, Powers [1] - 18:13 20:19, 79:23, 79:25, 73:11, 73:28, 74:7, 60:1, 60:27, 70:1, 21:23, 21:30, 22:10, practice [2] - 11:16, 14:30 80:2 74:12, 74:17, 74:25, 71:14, 72:10, 72:29, 41:22 precisely [1] - 13:11 72:30, 73:29, 86:12, offences [2] - 20:11, 75:3, 75:16 petrol [2] - 65:14, 87:15 preclude [1] - 10:17 89:3 24:24 Operational [2] - 78:3, phone [5] - 26:12, 72:13, prejudice [1] - 4:5 79:18 partially [1] - 68:9 Office [1] - 15:17 72:16, 72:23, 83:15 premises [1] - 58:26 operational [3] - 32:14, particular [27] - 1:13, 9:9, office [12] - 10:2, 14:22, phones [1] - 26:9 Prenty [4] - 8:29, 9:1, 9:23, 13:15, 18:24, 15:19, 51:3, 52:9, 59:28, 79:20 photograph [3] - 88:26, 55:7, 78:15 operations [14] - 21:14, 22:2, 49:19, 50:25, 52:13, 52:14, 58:10, 89:17, 89:18 preparations [1] - 7:6 30:19, 30:23, 50:13, 53:22, 55:3, 55:4, 58:14, 69:2, 72:13, phrase [2] - 22:1, 34:14 prepared [1] - 60:14 50:19, 50:26, 62:6, 57:12, 58:14, 58:22, 85:14 physical [1] - 36:11 presence [2] - 88:30, 89:1 65:20, 70:6, 72:29, 64:17, 66:11, 66:12, Officer [4] - 60:11, 60:13, pick [2] - 72:16, 72:23 present [2] - 3:23, 88:5 76:30, 79:19, 79:20, 66:15, 66:30, 67:3, 63:1, 88:4 picked [2] - 32:4, 43:6 press [4] - 1:8, 7:20, 7:21 86:24 68:27, 69:26, 79:2, officer [7] - 11:11, 16:18, piece [2] - 10:26, 12:14 Press [1] - 10:21 Operations [4] - 48:20, 81:27, 88:18, 89:27 17:8, 27:27, 43:19, PIRA [2] - 30:22, 63:5 presumably [2] - 33:3, 50:12, 62:4, 70:5 particularly [6] - 12:20, 44:15, 58:1 place [15] - 4:22, 4:26, 69:9 opinion [5] - 49:18, 36:7, 37:22, 37:27, officers [21] - 6:12, 7:7, 7:12, 10:6, 10:10, Prevention [2] - 42:2, 49:20, 64:28, 70:8, 40:23, 49:19 7:12, 7:30, 8:1, 8:7, 39:30, 65:21, 66:2, 79:22 78:26 passed [3] - 12:10, 13:14, 10:7, 10:8, 11:4, 12:6, 73:17, 74:25, 75:20, previous [4] - 3:12, 26:8, opportunity [1] - 83:24 22:15 12:8, 17:9, 43:25, 76:9, 82:6, 86:8 57:25, 73:4 opposite [1] - 8:30 passing [1] - 59:5 49:15, 53:25, 57:27, placed [2] - 86:15, 86:18 prison [1] - 17:9 Ops [4] - 66:23, 66:24, past [1] - 81:28 69:7, 78:5, 82:6, 88:12 plan [2] - 50:13, 59:11 privy [2] - 21:17, 22:2 often [6] - 50:14, 51:7, 68:23, 87:22 Pat [1] - 56:5 planned [12] - 21:15, probable [1] - 70:8 77:28, 78:1, 83:11, or.. [3] - 34:6, 35:12, pathologist [3] - 8:4, 22:20, 23:4, 32:9, 59:9, probationary [1] - 48:30 83:28 63:16 8:10, 8:13 59:18, 65:25, 74:14, problem [1] - 33:19 Omagh [2] - 27:21, 27:23 order [4] - 2:10, 2:21, patrol [6] - 66:29, 67:3, 74:15, 74:17, 75:1, 75:2 proceedings [1] - 1:4 ON [1] - 1:1 89:27, 89:29 67:11, 67:29, 68:2, planning [10] - 21:17, process [2] - 3:4, 8:12 on.. [1] - 39:22 ordered [2] - 2:7, 73:8 87:28 32:15, 65:29, 67:14, processed [1] - 28:14 once [14] - 28:25, 37:4, orders [2] - 42:27, 79:20 patrols [2] - 81:16, 81:18 68:28, 75:17, 75:19, produce [1] - 83:2 37:5, 39:24, 50:24, ordinarily [2] - 11:21, pattern [2] - 70:27 78:27, 79:19, 87:1 produced [1] - 23:29 pause [1] - 51:9 51:11, 51:12, 63:10, 11:22 plans [6] - 59:7, 59:14, professional [8] - 27:27, 66:1, 77:30, 84:24, ordinary [5] - 16:1, 16:3, paying [1] - 78:30 59:17, 60:19, 65:25, 43:19, 44:15, 56:15, 89:20, 89:28, 90:3 16:7, 24:7, 28:13 penciled [1] - 65:29 85:11 56:28, 62:15, 62:16 one [61] - 1:7, 2:8, 8:5, organisation [1] - 13:12 people [29] - 1:9, 12:2, play [1] - 72:28 professionally [1] - 49:18 17:7, 18:22, 19:7, 8:6, 8:28, 10:8, 11:1, organisations [3] - 18:10, played [2] - 13:11, 18:29 profile [6] - 70:16, 88:24, 12:13, 12:21, 13:4, 21:28, 24:6 23:23, 31:19, 32:10, Point [1] - 61:12 88:28, 89:3, 89:17, 14:17, 14:24, 14:30, organise [2] - 50:13, 70:6 38:10, 38:18, 43:2, point [18] - 4:18, 5:26, 89:19 17:15, 20:29, 21:23, organised [2] - 30:19, 49:8, 49:11, 49:24, 13:8, 38:27, 45:8, profiled [1] - 89:23 24:25, 27:20, 27:28, 64:12 54:24, 55:4, 56:21, 49:11, 58:26, 63:29, promoted [3] - 45:15, 38:24, 39:5, 40:7, organising [2] - 32:11, 57:16, 65:9, 65:10, 64:20, 67:6, 73:24, 48:17, 62:5 40:10, 40:12, 45:25, 79:19 65:14, 74:27, 75:20, 74:2, 77:15, 77:16,
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 9 proper [1] - 72:2 raise [1] - 38:27 regulation [1] - 18:12 resolve [1] - 40:4 route [3] - 53:2, 77:24, property [1] - 2:6 raised [3] - 7:22, 31:24, related [2] - 17:6, 32:16 resolved [1] - 39:27 88:14 prosecuted [1] - 79:25 89:19 relating [5] - 12:12, resource [2] - 74:2 routes [5] - 71:17, 71:29, prosecution [1] - 79:10 rank [4] - 7:2, 27:17, 13:15, 36:21, 38:29, resources [2] - 35:24, 72:8, 83:21, 83:23 prosecutions [1] - 79:14 45:15, 48:17 70:26 74:6 Royal [1] - 1:10 prosecutor [1] - 79:16 rather [4] - 15:5, 22:24, relation [34] - 2:16, 4:17, respect [3] - 22:26, 49:10, RUC [19] - 4:15, 5:9, 5:21, protect [4] - 12:17, 16:20, 54:25, 54:28 16:6, 18:3, 18:20, 80:25 7:18, 24:27, 26:29, 65:21, 75:20 RE [3] - 24:15, 44:30, 20:26, 20:30, 22:9, respected [4] - 1:12, 29:3, 29:22, 34:1, 41:9, protected [1] - 81:17 87:9 23:15, 24:22, 29:7, 49:15, 49:26, 89:11 48:6, 48:30, 49:30, protection [1] - 1:11 re [1] - 56:2 30:1, 30:7, 32:24, response [1] - 81:9 76:18, 76:19, 76:24, proved [1] - 17:23 RE-EXAMINED [3] - 33:22, 36:8, 36:11, responsibility [2] - 7:8, 81:12, 81:13, 82:6 provide [5] - 18:8, 18:13, 24:15, 44:30, 87:9 37:2, 38:2, 38:18, 50:13 RUC/Garda [1] - 17:3 18:18, 24:6, 36:9 reach [1] - 74:13 40:23, 40:29, 41:6, responsible [3] - 7:19, rudimentary [1] - 51:3 provided [2] - 11:22, reached [4] - 7:2, 27:17, 41:8, 41:21, 42:15, 27:7, 79:26 rule [1] - 4:21 41:10 28:16, 76:1 43:14, 45:5, 49:17, rest [2] - 20:21, 67:8 ruled [2] - 3:21, 4:19 proximity [1] - 30:4 reaction [1] - 7:14 66:1, 73:23, 76:29, Restorick [4] - 34:8, rules [1] - 53:18 PSNI [2] - 28:15, 82:27 read [1] - 31:21 82:1, 86:23 40:23, 40:25, 40:26 RULING [1] - 1:22 public [6] - 4:24, 15:13, ready [1] - 25:13 relations [1] - 33:30 restricted [3] - 29:1, ruling [2] - 1:24, 25:24 23:4, 25:11, 25:30, real [1] - 34:11 relationship [7] - 9:17, 87:26, 87:30 rummage [1] - 66:15 45:21 realised [1] - 85:8 17:4, 36:4, 40:30, 42:7, restrictions [1] - 85:9 run [1] - 51:30 Public [1] - 15:17 really [9] - 9:10, 18:6, 42:8, 86:23 RESUMED [3] - 1:1, Rural [1] - 73:4 pull [1] - 48:12 23:30, 52:8, 53:16, relationships [1] - 72:12 25:21, 47:1 ruthless [1] - 30:22 purely [1] - 12:12 72:18, 76:13, 78:21, relax [1] - 85:9 reticence [1] - 44:19 relaxed [4] - 52:11, 52:19, purpose [2] - 73:14, 85:16 retired [5] - 1:10, 5:11, S 73:26 reason [12] - 19:10, 33:7, 58:20, 84:22 5:13, 27:1, 80:16 sad [1] - 7:29 put [25] - 8:10, 10:18, 36:16, 49:12, 53:9, relevant [3] - 3:6, 16:10, revealing [1] - 53:19 sadness [1] - 7:16 12:3, 14:9, 22:14, 23:3, 53:27, 54:5, 67:10, 28:21 revenge [1] - 89:21 safety [4] - 83:18, 83:21, 28:14, 31:11, 40:21, 67:19, 77:25, 88:11, reliability [1] - 23:15 ribbon [2] - 36:17, 41:7 84:17, 86:14 52:6, 53:6, 54:8, 54:18, 89:11 reliable [3] - 11:21, 24:4, ribboned [1] - 36:20 satisfied [1] - 23:11 55:23, 56:14, 57:14, reasonable [3] - 70:11, 33:4 ring [1] - 79:30 Saturday [12] - 58:3, 66:11, 66:29, 67:5, 70:12, 71:18 relief [2] - 53:4, 75:24 rise [5] - 25:7, 25:12, 68:14, 73:27, 74:25, reasons [2] - 65:1, 86:10 rely [1] - 33:3 38:30, 39:12, 45:29 58:4, 58:5, 58:7, 58:9, 58:14, 58:20, 58:22, 75:17, 77:14, 78:27 reassemble [1] - 39:30 remain [1] - 4:6 risk [7] - 2:5, 3:19, 52:30, 67:22, 73:3, 84:20, putting [1] - 65:21 receive [4] - 24:21, 31:14, remember [30] - 11:7, 62:23, 84:15, 85:23, 37:1, 37:13 13:30, 14:2, 14:5, 86:18 84:21 save [1] - 87:15 Q received [4] - 28:27, 20:29, 30:9, 54:19, risks [1] - 86:16 saved [3] - 13:5, 22:21, 29:21, 57:25, 86:13 54:30, 57:11, 59:24, road [25] - 8:7, 14:27, quality [1] - 18:10 23:12 reckoned [1] - 52:30 63:7, 64:17, 64:24, 14:28, 14:29, 14:30, quarter [1] - 10:7 saw [5] - 13:19, 23:28, recognize [1] - 31:3 66:24, 68:24, 69:3, 15:1, 15:6, 17:2, 17:10, [2] 24:20, 75:29, 88:8 quarters - 83:5, 84:22 recollect [1] - 30:14 71:14, 73:6, 73:25, 19:3, 19:10, 52:25, [1] Scappaticci [11] - 1:16, questioning - 89:12 recollection [4] - 22:8, 75:15, 75:16, 77:2, 67:23, 68:30, 69:11, questions [15] - 19:21, 44:12, 75:13, 88:10 77:3, 84:30, 86:8, 69:13, 71:3, 71:5, 1:27, 1:28, 2:2, 2:4, 2:7, 2:22, 2:23, 3:8, 3:11, 19:23, 19:25, 24:11, recorded [2] - 33:9, 33:14 87:16, 87:19, 88:6, 71:10, 71:27, 71:28, 34:26, 39:9, 41:15, 88:24, 88:26 3:17 recovered [1] - 18:26 74:22, 74:23, 88:13 41:17, 44:26, 61:1, reminded [1] - 58:23 Scappaticci's [3] - 3:22, rectangle [1] - 68:12 Road [9] - 61:13, 67:23, 80:17, 82:20, 82:22, repeat [1] - 11:23 3:27, 4:4 red [4] - 36:17, 36:20, 68:1, 68:9, 69:14, 82:28, 87:5 41:7, 55:18 replenish [1] - 76:6 69:20, 71:11, 71:26, scene [7] - 8:2, 64:30, quite [23] - 32:1, 48:26, 75:5, 75:20, 75:28, red-ribboned [1] - 36:20 report [1] - 76:1 88:13 49:5, 49:6, 50:9, 50:14, 75:30, 76:1 refer [3] - 5:20, 5:22, reported [1] - 32:29 roads [12] - 15:5, 53:2, 50:22, 51:6, 51:7, scrambled [2] - 10:1, 41:21 represent [2] - 1:27, 71:6, 71:7, 71:9, 71:19, 52:11, 53:2, 56:23, 10:2 reference [7] - 2:13, 3:23, 80:15 71:24, 84:10, 84:11, 56:24, 56:25, 56:27, screen [2] - 4:26, 10:19 18:2, 36:9, 64:6, 73:3, representation [10] - 88:16, 88:19, 88:20 57:3, 60:2, 64:16, se [1] - 59:27 87:12 1:29, 2:2, 2:5, 2:8, 2:14, robbery [1] - 68:6 71:12, 71:13, 77:28, search [1] - 66:15 Reference [1] - 53:30 2:22, 2:27, 3:1, 3:22, ROBINSON [6] - 38:27, 78:2, 85:8 3:30 searches [1] - 75:21 referred [4] - 3:16, 35:26, 39:14, 39:27, 82:24, 50:28, 64:5 representatives [3] - 3:5, 82:26, 87:5 seated [1] - 26:1 3:28, 4:5 second [7] - 11:15, 14:13, R refused [1] - 18:13 Robinson [3] - 17:1, represented [2] - 3:25, 17:16, 82:26 25:23, 32:26, 45:5, radio [3] - 32:2, 32:30, regard [2] - 6:16, 11:1 33:25 55:7, 88:1 51:4 regarded [1] - 21:9 role [6] - 13:11, 18:11, represents [1] - 3:11 27:11, 60:1, 79:18, 88:7 secondary [1] - 65:3 Rafferty [2] - 19:30, 23:1 regarding [2] - 38:29, reproach [1] - 6:24 roles [1] - 62:3 seconds [1] - 81:9 RAFFERTY [12] - 19:27, 86:14 reputation [1] - 3:18 section [1] - 30:26 19:29, 22:29, 23:3, region [4] - 27:8, 27:15, room [11] - 4:21, 4:25, request [1] - 66:4 Section [1] - 62:1 23:10, 24:9, 26:15, 45:10, 45:11 25:6, 25:11, 25:27, requested [1] - 2:13 sections [1] - 30:27 26:20, 39:7, 41:19, regions [2] - 45:11, 48:8 25:28, 26:1, 39:16, require [1] - 1:28 secure [4] - 50:23, 50:28, 41:21, 44:24 registered [1] - 78:19 39:17, 39:18, 39:29 required [2] - 74:6, 83:2 Room [2] - 58:12, 68:23 50:30, 51:1 rail [2] - 64:23, 65:6 regrettably [1] - 17:30 rescinded [1] - 89:29 Rose [1] - 9:13 security [12] - 1:11, 12:9, railway [2] - 66:25, 66:27 regular [4] - 9:10, 14:22, 16:28, 81:20 reserves [1] - 68:11 round [2] - 81:18, 81:19 53:16, 54:28, 57:16,
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 10
80:20, 80:28, 81:3, site [2] - 75:11, 76:12 72:17, 83:9, 89:14, 61:11, 63:18, 63:21, 43:14, 44:2, 44:9, 82:1, 82:3, 84:1 sites [1] - 76:7 89:26 77:17, 77:22, 77:28, 44:13, 44:14, 44:20, see [31] - 4:13, 9:6, 9:26, sitting [1] - 39:17 Special [33] - 4:15, 11:28, 78:10, 78:11, 81:17, 45:16, 48:18, 49:5, 10:19, 10:26, 10:28, situation [2] - 54:9, 65:2 12:2, 12:10, 15:28, 81:22, 81:28, 82:13, 56:4, 56:5, 56:11, 12:13, 15:20, 17:20, situations [1] - 70:1 16:5, 16:9, 16:16, 83:26, 83:27 56:17, 56:18, 56:19, 18:18, 18:25, 31:2, sixth [1] - 10:8 16:17, 16:23, 16:25, Station [15] - 37:15, 38:5, 58:2, 58:4, 62:5, 64:5, 35:26, 37:5, 37:9, sleep [1] - 62:20 21:25, 22:16, 22:17, 52:11, 53:15, 54:21, 65:19, 68:18, 69:12, 50:25, 50:26, 54:27, small [2] - 61:15, 66:15 22:18, 27:4, 28:22, 54:27, 56:4, 76:25, 69:13, 70:10, 71:22, 58:7, 58:12, 58:13, smaller [1] - 15:5 31:26, 35:5, 35:15, 77:5, 78:30, 80:26, 73:2, 78:28, 83:21 60:14, 68:26, 73:30, smuggling [1] - 32:13 36:5, 37:2, 37:13, 80:29, 80:30, 81:13, superintendent [1] - 76:13, 83:14, 85:12, social [1] - 18:28 42:12, 43:6, 67:7, 81:14 56:20 85:18, 86:22, 87:12 soldier [2] - 16:18, 87:23 67:30, 76:18, 76:29, stationed [3] - 34:20, Superintendents [2] - seeing [2] - 56:21, 88:6 86:20, 86:23, 86:26, soldiers [3] - 10:7, 10:8, 84:9, 88:9 56:6, 70:22 seldom [2] - 76:30, 86:25 75:24 90:3 stations [10] - 6:27, supervising [1] - 79:20 specific [18] - 10:26, send [1] - 68:2 solicitor [2] - 2:8, 3:25 27:20, 51:23, 52:12, supervisor [1] - 6:18 20:19, 29:7, 54:11, 61:13, 63:19, 78:6, senior [7] - 11:11, 21:9, Solicitors [1] - 1:26 supporters [1] - 81:25 28:16, 29:21, 29:24, 54:13, 54:18, 54:25, 81:17, 82:13, 83:30 [7] someone [2] - 36:22, suppose - 7:17, 7:26, 58:18, 58:29, 59:19, 38:28, 49:15 49:26 status [2] - 59:17, 68:30 9:26, 37:12, 45:8, 54:7, sense [4] - 10:4, 10:15, 60:18, 60:21, 63:17, Staunton [2] - 55:1, 78:16 sometimes [6] - 9:21, 58:19 75:26, 76:26, 76:30, 54:14, 60:15 11:23, 65:3, 69:30, stay [1] - 52:7 surprised [1] - 81:23 81:15, 83:10 sensitive [1] - 12:20 71:10, 71:11 steps [2] - 57:15, 57:16 surveillance [2] - 38:14, specifically [14] - 53:17, sent [3] - 89:30, 90:1, somewhat [2] - 19:11, Steven [1] - 40:23 66:20 53:28, 54:7, 54:19, 90:5 23:26 still [1] - 87:21 surveyed [1] - 33:5 57:12, 66:11, 75:13, separate [3] - 11:20, somewhere [1] - 38:7 stilted [1] - 72:17 suspect [5] - 12:19, 11:30, 15:29 75:15, 77:6, 78:13, soon [3] - 69:8, 89:29, stood [1] - 89:1 23:27, 24:23, 24:27, 79:6, 81:17, 86:29, 87:3 September [3] - 2:26, 90:7 stopped [5] - 17:10, 81:24 17:1, 45:17 specifics [1] - 65:28 [2] sorry [12] - 10:20, 23:14, 58:10, 58:15, 61:19, suspects - 9:16, 81:21 speculated [1] - 7:25 Sergeant [9] - 13:24, 25:25, 28:10, 31:21, 81:25 suspicion [3] - 17:22, speculation [1] - 16:22 14:10, 14:13, 33:26, 34:13, 35:10, 35:14, stopping [1] - 81:19 57:5, 77:14 spend [1] - 35:4 34:17, 34:19, 36:21, 36:23, 37:7, 40:28, straight [1] - 52:9 swathes [1] - 67:25 49:1, 49:9 57:30 spending [1] - 83:9 strands [1] - 11:30 Switch [1] - 90:14 spent [1] - 83:5 sergeants [1] - 6:1 Sorry [1] - 69:12 strange [1] - 86:3 SWORN [3] - 5:1, 26:3, spoken [2] - 73:23, 81:25 Sergeants [1] - 84:8 sort [26] - 7:23, 17:3, strangers [1] - 39:29 48:1 series [1] - 64:25 33:30, 43:18, 44:9, spotted [1] - 79:2 strategic [1] - 50:18 sworn [1] - 5:5 serious [1] - 56:24 48:28, 51:29, 53:19, Square [3] - 19:6, 19:9, strict [2] - 28:30, 85:8 sympathisers [1] - 80:8 serve [1] - 48:8 56:24, 57:8, 58:16, 61:14 strongly [1] - 1:7 system [4] - 6:2, 12:10, served [4] - 6:26, 48:9, 58:24, 60:17, 61:19, Staff [3] - 60:10, 60:13, structured [1] - 84:30 12:11, 58:1 49:2, 49:16 62:22, 67:12, 68:27, 88:4 stuck [1] - 15:5 System [1] - 90:14 serves [3] - 51:2, 57:5, 69:22, 71:9, 73:13, staff [1] - 51:20 subdivision [8] - 10:10, systems [1] - 11:18 59:8 76:12, 79:28, 85:7, stage [22] - 5:28, 6:12, 48:21, 50:14, 58:19, Síochána [10] - 2:17, Service [1] - 63:2 88:29, 89:10, 89:21 7:2, 11:5, 18:11, 20:12, 61:9, 62:6, 77:17, 82:14 5:22, 7:7, 11:2, 15:27, service [2] - 5:15, 6:13 sorts [2] - 6:3, 80:6 20:14, 20:20, 21:24, Subdivisional [1] - 85:13 29:4, 29:13, 35:4, services [2] - 38:25, sought [3] - 2:1, 3:14, 27:17, 38:24, 49:2, submission [1] - 24:2 36:15, 61:8 51:5, 51:29, 57:5, 59:3, 40:21 47:9 submissions [1] - 4:16 60:17, 63:15, 76:3, set [1] - 73:19 sound [2] - 26:23, 36:17 subsequent [3] - 31:27, T 76:21, 79:22, 85:2 setting [1] - 70:1 source [8] - 11:16, 11:19, 32:17, 87:16 stages [1] - 16:22 tall [1] - 89:1 seven [1] - 62:8 11:21, 11:23, 12:21, subsequently [6] - 19:8, target [10] - 30:11, 57:6, several [2] - 9:21, 43:12 12:24, 16:20, 23:28 stairs [2] - 52:13, 52:16 33:10, 43:6, 45:15, 57:9, 57:10, 57:15, shared [2] - 12:3, 57:27 sources [1] - 18:12 stake [1] - 16:15 74:13, 88:27 82:16, 85:29, 89:23 sheet [1] - 55:30 South [1] - 30:22 stand [1] - 90:12 substance [2] - 7:28, targeted [2] - 77:21, sheets [1] - 55:23 south [42] - 7:21, 9:16, standing [1] - 88:27 38:15 81:11 shelf [1] - 42:24 10:24, 13:20, 14:8, start [3] - 9:10, 17:4, subversives [1] - 89:19 targeting [5] - 74:21, shift [4] - 6:2, 6:3 20:18, 21:14, 30:20, 31:21 successful [1] - 79:13 77:20, 82:12, 82:14, shoppers [1] - 65:12 33:14, 33:18, 35:8, started [5] - 18:9, 24:5, suffice [3] - 20:22, 21:2, 82:15 short [2] - 67:12, 75:3 37:21, 50:15, 50:20, 48:10, 84:30, 85:7 23:11 task [2] - 7:29, 8:6 short-term [1] - 67:12 50:21, 53:11, 53:22, starting [1] - 44:1 suggest [5] - 21:29, tea [1] - 72:14 showed [2] - 69:2, 90:2 53:26, 54:23, 57:6, statement [4] - 28:2, 23:19, 32:8, 41:30, technical [5] - 23:14, side [4] - 9:14, 15:12, 61:16, 61:27, 64:7, 28:4, 31:25, 33:9 75:10 26:7, 32:19, 43:24, 50:1, 50:3 64:11, 65:11, 65:15, statements [1] - 3:14 suggested [1] - 36:20 43:30 sightings [4] - 78:27, 65:24, 66:16, 67:25, station [44] - 5:24, 9:5, suggesting [1] - 10:27 telephone [9] - 9:3, 9:28, 80:8, 81:21, 81:24 69:28, 71:7, 71:12, 9:8, 10:23, 10:25, suggestion [5] - 30:6, 10:28, 14:14, 14:17, 26:13, 26:23, 50:23, signals [1] - 32:2 80:30, 81:4, 82:29, 38:4, 38:15, 54:2, 56:30 15:7, 15:12, 18:21, 50:28, 50:30, 51:1, 63:5 similar [1] - 36:14 83:22, 84:4, 84:7, 86:7, summary [1] - 69:4 18:26, 19:3, 19:5, 19:9, telephoned [1] - 15:9 similarly [1] - 81:3 86:26 Sunday [1] - 58:4 28:11, 34:21, 37:6, telephones [1] - 80:6 simply [4] - 16:19, 44:20, southeast [1] - 45:11 Superintendent [38] - 37:8, 37:10, 37:16, television [1] - 89:13 64:29, 68:9 southwest [1] - 45:9 2:18, 2:19, 17:25, 38:16, 51:22, 52:5, telex [1] - 90:16 Siochana [1] - 50:8 speaking [8] - 11:9, 27:18, 29:17, 29:25, 52:18, 52:21, 54:6, temporary [1] - 67:12 sit [1] - 72:13 15:10, 49:18, 51:8, 31:26, 33:1, 33:11,
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 5 October 2011 - Day 40 11 tended [1] - 75:9 86:26, 90:25, 90:27, 15:30, 25:27, 29:29, variety [1] - 83:30 whatsoever [1] - 33:29 term [1] - 67:12 91:3 45:6, 45:25, 45:28, various [7] - 1:9, 11:18, whereabouts [1] - 30:1 terminate [5] - 42:7, 42:9, took [4] - 62:5, 69:13, 45:29, 48:23, 48:24, 16:22, 18:27, 24:6, whereas [15] - 8:9, 49:27, 42:10, 42:20, 42:21 84:15, 88:19 58:20, 61:13, 73:5, 29:4, 78:16 50:17, 50:19, 66:9, terminated [1] - 43:5 topic [1] - 64:7 74:4, 87:11, 88:12 vary [1] - 83:25 66:14, 67:5, 72:15, terms [23] - 2:13, 2:27, tormented [1] - 34:14 tying [2] - 50:14, 50:20 VCP [3] - 66:15, 69:26, 72:21, 83:28, 84:10, 3:1, 7:20, 9:8, 19:1, totally [2] - 43:20, 86:28 type [2] - 84:28, 89:16 70:2 85:13, 85:15, 85:16, 33:9, 34:13, 42:22, touch [1] - 83:16 vehicle [5] - 19:14, 85:22, 86:3 51:17, 54:30, 60:20, touching [1] - 3:6 U 85:26, 86:4 whole [2] - 35:4, 62:6 69:11, 70:29, 71:26, towards [3] - 50:5, 50:6, vehicles [1] - 85:28 wide [1] - 90:5 Ulster [1] - 1:10 72:8, 73:11, 74:12, 75:30 venue [1] - 78:7 willing [1] - 6:14 ultimately [2] - 14:14, 75:22, 76:12, 83:7, tower [1] - 76:11 versa [1] - 65:11 wish [1] - 5:20 34:20 88:2, 89:17 towers [3] - 66:25, 66:26, via [1] - 71:10 withdraw [1] - 39:17 um-hmm [5] - 53:29, Terms [1] - 53:29 66:27 vice [1] - 65:11 withdrawn [1] - 25:12 61:26, 61:28, 63:14, terrorism [4] - 12:5, 12:9, town [3] - 17:7, 19:6, vice-versa [1] - 65:11 withdraws [2] - 45:22, 75:8 62:21, 81:27 63:22 view [18] - 1:27, 2:3, 45:29 unannounced [2] - 52:2, Terrorism [2] - 42:2, traffic [4] - 19:12, 19:14, 15:14, 23:1, 30:25, WITHDREW [2] - 25:19, 53:7 79:23 32:30, 71:4 34:9, 34:11, 49:11, 46:1 uncomfortable [1] - 43:1 terrorist [10] - 16:2, 16:3, trafficking [2] - 32:1, 32:2 58:26, 63:29, 66:24, witness [30] - 4:6, 4:22, under [4] - 18:12, 30:14, 16:4, 16:7, 20:11, train [1] - 40:7 66:27, 74:2, 77:15, 4:26, 5:4, 23:5, 25:5, 42:1, 79:22 21:17, 24:7, 24:23, training [1] - 49:1 77:16, 81:11, 82:11 25:8, 25:11, 25:23, understandably [1] - 53:6 54:25, 72:30 transcript [1] - 60:9 visit [8] - 9:1, 57:25, 58:7, 25:27, 26:1, 26:6, 26:8, understood [1] - 73:14 terrorists [11] - 32:3, transferred [1] - 27:15 73:15, 73:17, 73:24, 26:25, 29:11, 31:1, undertaking [1] - 73:9 32:11, 53:10, 53:24, transmission [1] - 33:6 75:5 31:17, 32:27, 39:17, unfairly [1] - 3:18 54:23, 62:20, 79:24, transmissions [2] - visited [2] - 56:12, 77:28 39:24, 39:30, 40:5, unfortunately [1] - 17:15 81:24, 81:25, 82:12 32:19, 33:5 visiting [1] - 80:30 40:6, 45:22, 45:25, uniform [6] - 5:30, 8:23, THE [23] - 1:1, 1:22, transport [1] - 84:4 visits [1] - 64:6 45:28, 45:29, 47:7, 61:29, 62:7, 74:2, 89:2 15:24, 19:27, 24:15, travel [3] - 14:19, 19:2, voice [2] - 49:18, 72:23 75:27, 90:24 Uniformed [1] - 62:1 25:19, 25:21, 35:1, 86:19 volume [1] - 71:4 WITNESS [15] - 5:1, uniformed [7] - 5:28, 39:20, 40:14, 41:19, traveled [1] - 14:24 15:24, 19:27, 24:15, 44:30, 46:1, 46:3, 47:1, 14:10, 14:13, 34:17, travelled [7] - 14:17, 25:19, 26:3, 35:1, 34:19, 48:17, 50:1 W 61:3, 80:13, 82:24, 55:13, 55:17, 55:19, 40:14, 41:19, 44:30, unit [2] - 30:23, 37:27 87:9, 91:5, 91:6 63:8, 83:19, 85:22 wait [1] - 51:15 46:1, 61:3, 80:13, THEN [2] - 25:19, 46:1 United [1] - 63:1 wake [1] - 31:15 travelling [12] - 9:9, 9:23, 82:24, 87:9 unknown [1] - 57:15 therefore [5] - 2:7, 33:16, 10:5, 17:13, 30:14, walk [1] - 52:19 Witness [10] - 5:7, 24:17, unless [3] - 22:3, 86:29, 74:28, 84:7, 86:28 51:17, 59:22, 71:21, walked [3] - 52:9, 52:10, 25:3, 25:16, 26:27, they's [1] - 37:24 71:24, 84:13, 85:24, 87:27 84:9 31:30, 32:27, 43:30, thinking [5] - 15:28, 17:6, 88:12 unrealistic [1] - 76:4 Walsh [1] - 29:17 45:1, 73:4 unreasonable [2] - 77:25, 19:3, 73:30, 86:9 tray [1] - 69:5 warnings [2] - 37:1, witness's [1] - 22:27 78:8 thinks [1] - 5:8 treated [1] - 90:10 37:13 witnesses [2] - 1:5, 4:14 UNTIL [1] - 91:5 Warren [1] - 61:12 threat [11] - 10:4, 53:28, TRIBUNAL [6] - 1:1, wonder [3] - 29:10, 56:30, 57:7, 57:12, 25:21, 39:20, 46:3, untimely [1] - 41:3 WAS [13] - 5:1, 15:24, 38:27, 38:30 73:1, 74:19, 77:6, 77:7, 47:1, 91:5 unwielding [1] - 85:3 19:27, 24:15, 26:3, word [3] - 7:11, 33:12, unwieldy [1] - 86:5 35:1, 41:19, 44:30, 87:1, 87:2 tribunal [1] - 43:29 81:21 [2] up [35] - 10:18, 15:1, 48:1, 61:3, 80:13, threats - 57:2, 76:30 Tribunal [13] - 1:26, 2:3, words [5] - 27:29, 64:15, three [11] - 3:4, 6:9, 2:21, 3:15, 4:3, 21:2, 15:15, 17:4, 22:3, 82:24, 87:9 74:8, 87:27, 89:15 13:23, 29:27, 30:3, 64:19, 66:18, 68:28, 29:13, 31:18, 32:4, was.. [1] - 35:23 worth [1] - 18:17 45:1, 65:3, 71:8, 83:5, 71:21, 78:25, 84:16 41:1, 42:10, 42:18, waste [1] - 89:15 writing [1] - 79:20 43:6, 43:22, 43:27, 84:22, 88:15 Tribunal's [1] - 1:27 watch [1] - 19:7 three-quarters [2] - 83:5, 50:24, 52:2, 52:12, watched [2] - 19:4, 37:19 trip [1] - 68:29 Y 84:22 52:16, 53:7, 55:23, [7] trips [1] - 18:20 watching - 53:14, throughout [1] - 5:15 56:30, 57:7, 57:10, 64:1, 77:18, 77:19, year [2] - 9:18, 45:3 trouble [1] - 18:17 Thursday [1] - 73:5 57:11, 58:24, 63:8, 77:26, 78:9, 81:13 years [4] - 6:9, 13:1, troubles [1] - 10:9 THURSDAY [1] - 91:5 66:30, 70:1, 70:6, watchtowers [1] - 19:13 43:12, 62:8 true [1] - 44:16 thwart [1] - 72:30 71:15, 72:16, 72:23, ways [2] - 71:1, 71:2 young [1] - 6:13 trusting [1] - 43:2 tied [1] - 72:28 74:20, 75:20, 86:21 weapons [1] - 88:28 younger [1] - 6:12 try [5] - 40:10, 40:12, upright [1] - 6:17 yourself [9] - 7:14, 10:14, Tierney [1] - 56:5 65:4, 66:2, 83:14 week [8] - 9:21, 51:11, upstairs [1] - 26:12 59:7, 60:5, 67:13, 74:4, 15:17, 34:6, 48:13, tip [3] - 78:29, 79:3, 79:4 trying [7] - 58:25, 64:30, useful [2] - 36:7, 38:24 52:6, 62:23, 63:9, 77:12 tip-off [3] - 78:29, 79:3, 65:2, 66:8, 69:30, 75:23 84:27, 87:1 week's [1] - 74:4 79:4 turn [3] - 26:22, 31:24, tipped [1] - 79:6 72:26 V weekend [4] - 57:25, TO [1] - 40:14 57:27, 59:11, 60:3 turned [3] - 52:2, 57:10, vacate [1] - 4:25 today's [2] - 1:4, 90:18 weeks [1] - 66:19 88:16 vacated [2] - 4:21, 25:6 together [2] - 8:21, 84:21 welcome [1] - 91:1 turning [1] - 53:7 Valentine [1] - 32:29 toing [1] - 50:22 well-known [2] - 62:10, twice [1] - 84:25 van [1] - 75:10 Tom [5] - 56:12, 56:16, 89:6 two [25] - 3:1, 4:14, 4:15, varied [2] - 53:1, 83:23 56:23, 56:26 west [1] - 27:12 7:6, 7:12, 7:30, 8:6, varieties [1] - 80:6 tomorrow [5] - 51:30, 11:19, 11:30, 14:9, western [2] - 27:8, 76:4
Doyle Court Reporters Ltd.