Dáil Éireann

DÁIL ÉIREANN

AN COMHCHOISTE UM EALAÍONA, OIDHREACHT, GNÓTHAÍ RÉIGIÚNACHA, TUAITHE AGUS GAELTACHTA

JOINT COMMITTEE ON ARTS, HERITAGE, REGIONAL, RURAL AND GAEL- TACHT AFFAIRS

Déardaoin, 15 Nollaig 2016

Thursday, 15 December 2016

The Joint Committee met at 2.15 p.m.

MEMBERS PRESENT:

Deputy Ciarán Cannon, Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell. Deputy Michael Collins, Deputy Martin Heydon, Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív,

In attendance: Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh.

DEPUTY PEADAR TÓIBÍN IN THE CHAIR.

1 Ferry Service to Inis Mór: Discussion (Resumed) Ferry Service to Inis Mór: Discussion (Resumed)

Chairman: Breathnóimid anois ar na hábhair seo a leanas: an tseirbhís fharantóireachta go hInis Mór, Contae na Gaillimhe; staid agus curaimí Chomhar na nOileán; West Cork Develop- ment Partnership; proposed Mary Robinson centre in Ballina, County Mayo; agus an buiséad in 2017 i gcomhair na Gaeilge agus maoiniú i gcomhair Fhoras na Gaeilge agus i gcomhair Údarás na Gaeltachta. Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Ealaíon, Oidhreachta, Gnóthaí Réigiúna- cha, Tuaithe agus Gaeltachta, Deputy Heather Humphreys. Níl an tAire Stáit le freagracht as gnóthaí Gaeltachta agus acmhainní nádúrtha, Deputy Seán Kyne, anseo fós ach b’fhéidir go dtiocfaidh sé. I also welcome from the Department Mr. Joe Hamill, Secretary General, Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh, assistant secretary, Mr. William Parnell, assistant secretary, Mr. Aodhán Mac Cormaic, stiúrthóir na Gaeilge, and Mr. J. P. Mulherin, principal officer.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by abso- lute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of the proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I advise the witnesses that the opening statements and any other documents they have submitted to the committee may be published on the committee website after the meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Today’s meeting is one of a series of meetings to consider the issue of what it takes to sus- tain a rural community. During our deliberations we are examining all elements of this, including employment, emergency services, local services, quality of life, education and transport. B’fhéidir go dtosnódh an tAire. I invite the Minister to make her presentation.

Minister for Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs (Deputy Heather Humphreys): I am pleased to have the opportunity to address the joint committee and thank it for the invitation to attend. The committee listed five specific items on today’s agenda. I will address the committee’s queries on the responsibilities and status of Comhar na nOileán, the West Cork Development Partnership and the proposed Mary Robinson centre in Ballina. The Minister of State, Deputy Kyne, will address the committee on the ferry service to Inis Mór and the 2017 budget for the Irish language. I am happy to take questions now, if the committee wishes to deal with each one separately.

Chairman: An chéad rud ar an liosta ná an tseirbhís fharantóireachta go hInis Mór, Contae na Gaillimhe. An bhfuil ceisteanna?

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Cinnte tá. Cuirim fáilte roimh gach éinne. Bhí plé an- mhaith againn anseo inné le muintir na n-oileán agus le toscairí ó Chomhairle Chontae na Gail- limhe maidir leis an tseirbhís fharantóireachta. Caithfidh mé aitheantas a thabhairt don Aire Stáit agus do na feidhmeannaigh as an gcomhréiteach sealadach atá déanta maidir leis an tseirb- hís fharantóireachta go hInis Mór. Ardaíodh ceisteanna níos leithne inné maidir leis an bplean ó thaobh a bheith ag déanamh cinnte de nach dtarlódh a leithéid de rud arís. Is cosúil go raibh, mar a deir siad i mBéarla, standoff idir an comhlacht agus Comhairle Chontae na Gaillimhe ar

2 Joint Committee on Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs chúinsí éagsúla agus tuigim go mbaineann bunús an aighnis leis na táillí ag an gcalafort.

Ós rud é gur chaith rannóga de chuid na Roinne €49 milliún ar ché nua, an bhfuil an Roinn sásta go bhfuil an comhairle contae anois ag baint táillí de phaisinéirí le húsáid a bhaint as an gcalafort céanna? Dar le muintir na n-oileán anseo inné gur fhaca an comhairle contae cash cow sa chomhlacht farantóireachta a bhí ag tabhairt isteach 200,000 paisinéir go hÁrainn in aghaidh na bliana agus, mar gheall go raibh buiséad níos lú ag an gcomhairle, go raibh an comhairle chun cuid den bhrabach sin a bhaint den chomhlacht. Is é sin an sórt léamh a bhí agam air. Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil sé dleathach de réir an dlí, ach an bhfuil an Roinn sásta, tar éis €49 milliún a chaitheamh ar an gcé, go bhfuil sé ceart go mbeadh an comhairle ag baint amach an t-airgead seo? Ar chóir go mbeadh an Roinn tar éis labhairt leo roimh ré le comhréiteach a fháil sula mbeadh deireadh curtha leis an tseirbhís áirithe seo?

Maidir leis an mbearna atá sa mbuiséad ag Comhairle Chontae na Gaillimhe i mbliana, dúradh gur thart ar 200,000 paisinéir atá ag dul isteach is amach go hÁrainn agus go raibh 80 cent in aghaidh an chloiginn mar tháille, rud a thabharfadh isteach thart ar €160,000 in aghaidh na bliana. Bhí caint anseo inné faoi fhordheontas a chur ar fáil ón Roinn leis an mbearna sin a dhéanamh suas agus an chóir é sin a dhéanamh nó an chóir go mbeadh comhréiteach áit éigin idir €160,000 agus an €40,000 a ghlacaim leis gur chuir an Roinn ar an mbord roimhe seo. In áit a bheith ag caint ar táillí calafoirt, ar chóir go mbeadh muid ag caint ar fhordheontas ón Roinn?

Bhí ceist mhór eile ag muintir na n-oileán inné. An aontaíonn an tAire gur chóir go mbeadh an táille mar a chéile ag daoine as Inis Mór atá ag taisteal is atá ar gach oileán eile amach ó chós- ta na hÉireann? Síleann gur €10 an táille a íocann gach duine eile ach go bhfuil táille €15 nó mar sin ar mhuintir Inis Mór agus go bhfuil táillí níos airde ar na daoine óga chomh maith. An bhfuil i gceist comhchoiste iompair nó comhchoiste oileánda a athbhunú faoi scáth na Roinne le honadaithe ó na hoileáin rannpháirteach ann? Bhí caint go raibh a leithéid de chomhchoiste faoi Chomhairle Chontae na Gaillimhe roimhe seo, ach an bhfuil gá i ndáiríre le comhchoiste ina mbeadh na rannpháirtithe éagsúla - an Roinn, Comhairle Chontae na Gaillimhe, muintir na n-oileán agus na comhlachtaí a chuireann seirbhísí ar fáil - le nach mbeidh muid ag titim ó ghé- archéim go géarchéim maidir leis an tseirbhís aeir, an tseirbhís fharantóireachta agus eile agus gur féidir teacht ar chomhréiteach ar na ceisteanna seo?

Ó thaobh luach airgid a fháil, cé gur chaith an Roinn €49 milliún ar an gcé agus go bhfuil táille 80 cent an duine á bhaint de na turarsóirí atá ag dul isteach agus amach, an bhfuil an Roinn sásta nach bhfuil leithreas nó shower ann agus gan ach fascadh iontach teoranta le fáil ar an gcé ? An bhfuil na hAirí sásta gur bhfuair an Roinn luach airgid as an togra sin?

Deputy Seán Kyne: Gabhaim mo bhuíochas leis an Seanadóir as ucht na ceisteanna sin. An rud is tábhachtaí anois ná go mbeidh cinnteacht ann as seo amach ó thaobh seirbhíse d’Inis Mór. Tá sé ráite roimhe agus táim chun é a rá arís go hoifigiúil go mbeimid ag breathnú ar chonradh fadtéarmach ó 2017 go hInis Mór. Beidh mé ag tosnú próiseas comhairliúcháin le muintir na dtrí oileán Árann chun breathnú ar cheisteanna áirithe. Mar shampla, an mbeadh siad sásta na trí hoileáin a chur le chéile i gconradh amháin nó an mb’fhearr leo conradh amháin a bheith ann d’Inis Mór agus conradh eile d’Inis Oírr agus Inis Meáin? Tosnóidh mé an próiseas sin go luath in 2017 ionas go mbeidh cinnteacht ag muintir na n-oileán maidir leis an difríocht idir conradh PSO agus conarthaí eile le deontais ón Roinn.

In aon chonradh nua d’Inis Mór, beimid ag breathnú ar na táillí agus an difríocht sa €10 atá muintir Inis Oírr agus Inis Meáin ag íoc agus an €15 atá á n-íoc ag muintir Inis Mór. 3 Ferry Service to Inis Mór: Discussion (Resumed) Aontaím leis an Seanadóir maidir le comhchoiste idir an Roinn-----

Chairman: An bhfuil guthán ag bualadh? Iarraim ar gach aon duine a ngutháin a mhúchadh.

Deputy Seán Kyne: Ba cheart breathnú ar chomhchoiste a bhunú idir Roinn na Gaeltachta, Comhairle Chontae na Gaillimhe agus, mar shampla, seirbhísí sláinte. Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil comhchoiste mar sin i gCorcaigh agus bíonn díospóireacht ann faoi chuile rud ag baint le saol na n-oileán chun rudaí a dhéanamh níos fearr ó thaobh seirbhísí agus chuile rud eile. Smaoineamh maith é sin. Ba cheart rud éigin a dhéanamh do na hoileáin i nGaillimh agus i nDún na nGall freisin. Ar dtús, ba cheart dom fáilte a chur roimh an Uasal Aodhán Mac Cor- maic, stiúrthóir nua na Gaeilge don Roinne. Beimid ag obair le chéile ar rudaí den shórt sin. Tá mé sásta tuilleadh smaoineamh a dhéanamh air ach sílim gur smaoineamh maith é.

An bhfuil an Roinn sásta leis na táillí? Ba chóir an cheist a chur ar an gcomhairle contae. Is leis an gcomhairle contae cé Chill Rónáin. Bhí vóta daonlathach sa chomhairle contae in 2012 agus ghlac na comhairleoirí le táille de 80 cent in aghaidh an phaisinéara. Mar is eol do chuile dhuine, bhí cás cúirte ina dhiaidh. Chaill Island Ferries Teoranta an cás agus is é sin an fáth gur chuir an comhlacht deireadh leis an tseirbhís. Tá céim mór tógtha ag Island Ferries Teoranta agus ag na comhairleoirí ar feadh coicíse anois. Táimid fós i mbun plé agus sílim go mbeidh doiciméad os comhair na gcomhairleoirí Dé Luain maidir leis na táillí. Sin ceist do na comhairleoirí, áfach, mar is leis an gcomhairle contae an cé. Thug an Roinn deontas don chomhairle contae. Beimid ag déanamh an rud céanna d’Inis Oírr. Beidh sé sin ag dul ar aghaidh i rith 2017. Tá sé ráite ag an gcomhairle contae freisin go mbeidh fodhlíthe d’Inis Oírr ó thaobh na gcostaisí as seo amach freisin. Sílim go mbeidh cinneadh le déanamh freisin ag na comhair- leoirí maidir leis sin. Tá sé soiléir go bhfuil costaisí ann ó thaobh chaomhnú na cé agus tá an comhairle contae ag iarraidh airgead a fháil chun na seirbhísí a chur i bhfeidhm. Aontaím gur cheart go mbeadh leithreas ann ach sílim gur ceist í sin don chomhairle contae freisin.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Ós rud gur luaigh an tAire Stáit é, cuirim féin fáilte roimh cheapachán Áodháin Mhic Cormaic mar stiúrthóir na Gaeilge. Bhí folúntas ansin ar feadh tamaill fada agus tá aithne agam ar Aodhán ón obair atá déanta aige leis an Roinn. Deabhal fear níos fearr a d’fhéadfaí a fháil don phost sin. Guím gach rath air sa bpost.

Ní maith liom focal a chur ina mbéil ach an léamh a rinne mé ar an bpointe a bhí toscairí an chomhairle contae ag déanamh inné ná go raibh ar an gcomhairle contae, mar gheall ar chiorruithe buiséid, teacht ar foinsí eile airgid agus nach raibh aon rogha acu i ndáiríre ach dul i dtreo fodhlíthe a thabharfadh airgead isteach. An cheist a bhí agam ar an Aire Stáit ná an bhfuil an Roinn sásta breathnú ar fhordheontas ó thaobh an conradh atá an Roinn ag tairiscint a líonfadh an bhearna san airgead atá an comhairle contae ag lorg. Bhíodar ag caint ar 80 cent in aghaidh an chloiginn ar 200,000 duine. Tá sé sin thart ar €160,000 in aghaidh na bliana. An bhfuil an Roinn sásta breathnú ar fhigiúir den chineál sin nó figiúir níos lú? Tuigtear dom, nuair a bhí géarchéim ann an bhliain seo caite, gur leag an Roinn roinnt airgid ar an mbord ó thaobh an chonartha go hInis Mór agus sin €40,000 nó €50,000. An bhfuil an Stát, tríd an Roinn, sásta an bhearna a laghdú sa gcaoi gur féidir an cás a dhéanamh le comhairleoirí Chontae na Gaillimhe an táille sin a tharraingt siar? Braithim ón méid a bhí an leas-cathaoirleach ar an gcomhairle contae ag rá inné gur b’fhearr leo gan a bheith ag baint amach táillí dá bhféadfaidís ach is de bharr chiorruithe airgid atá sé sin ag tarlú i ndáiríre píre.

Deputy Seán Kyne: Chuir Island Ferries Teoranta doiciméad os comhair mo Roinne le dé- anaí ina raibh moltaí faoi réiteach ar an bhfadhb mar aon le tuairimí faoi thodhchaí na seirbhísí. Thug mo Roinn éisteacht mhaith do na moltaí agus tá mé sásta a rá go bhfuil Island Ferries 4 Joint Committee on Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs Teoranta anois sásta glacadh i bprionsabal le fodhlíthe maidir leis na paisinéirí. Tá mé féin agus mo chuid oifigigh i dteagmháil go rialta le Comhairle Chontae na Gaillimhe faoin ábhar seo agus táimid fós ag plé chuile rud ó thaobh na bhfodhlíthe agus ag iarraidh teacht ar réiteach ar na fadhbanna agus an difríocht idir an comhairle contae agus Island Ferries Teoranta. Tá sé ráite go minic ach tá céim mór tógtha ag Island Ferries agus na comhairleoirí a thug cead don phríomhfheidhmeannach é seo a phlé. Tá dul chun cinn mór déanta. Sílim go mbeidh doici- méad os comhair na gcomhairleoirí Dé Luain seo chugainn agus tá na hoifigigh i mo Roinn i dteagmháil leis an gcomhairle contae maidir le cuid de na costaisí reatha ó thaobh ché Chill Rónáin.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Bhí caint ar na costaisí reatha sin agus cuireadh figiúirí os ár gcomhair inné. Nuair a bhí ceann de na cásanna cúirte ann, bhí meastachán de €176,000 in aghaidh na bliana mar chostas reatha don ché ach tá sé sin ardaithe le cúpla bliain. Sílim go bhfuil sé áit éigin idir €190,000 agus €260,000 in aghaidh na bliana. An bhfuil an tAire Stáit sásta go bhfuil cruinneas ag baint leis na figiúirí sin agus go bhfuil an méid sin airgid dáiríre á chaitheamh ag Comhairle Chontae na Gaillimhe ar riaradh an ché sin nuair a bhí céatadán i bhfad níos lú ag baint le riaradh na cé sin sula ndearnadh an ché nua? Cinnte beidh tionchar aige sin ar an méid atá an Roinn sásta a thairiscint nuair a bheidh an Roinn ag cur tairiscint ar fáil ó thaobh conartha de.

Tá comhráití ar siúl agus tuigim nach féidir labhairt go mion faoi chomhráití atá fós ar siúl mar gheall ar chúinsí dlí agus mar sin de. An bhfuil sé leagtha síos mar bhunchoinníoll ag an Aire Stáit sa chineál comhréiteach atá á phlé go mbeidh táille de €10 do na hoileánaigh i gceist mar chuid den socrú? De réir mar a thuigeann muid, críochnóidh an socrú reatha ar an 4 Eanáir seo chugainn. Cé chomh fada is a bheidh an socrú nua i bhfeidhm, i dtuairim an Aire Stáit? An mairfidh sé go dtí go mbeidh socrú fadtéarmach déanta tar éis an phróisis comhairliúcháin atá á phlé faoi láthair? Tá sé ráite ag an Aire Stáit go bhfuil sé i gceist aige go mbeidh conradh nua a bheidh níos buaine agus níos fadtéarmaí i bhfeidhm.

Deputy Seán Kyne: Tá sé ráite agam go bhfuil conradh fadtéarmach ag teastáil d’Inis Mór ina aonair nó d’Inis Mór in éineacht le Inis Oírr agus Inis Meáin. Beidh sé sin déanta ag mo Roinn le linn na bliana 2017. Tá sé ar bharr an liosta go mairfidh conradh farantóireachta d’Inis Mór ar feadh ceithre nó cúig bliana. Teastaíonn uaim go mbeidh cinnteacht ag muintir Árann maidir leis an tseirbhís i rith an gheimhridh. Tá sé sin soiléir. Mar a dúirt mé, beidh mé sásta suí síos le muintir Árann leis an ábhar sin a phlé.

Beimid ag breathnú ar na costais i gcomhthéacs an conartha fadtéarmach. Beidh béim ar an difríocht idir na táillí de €15 agus €10 atá i gceist ar Inis Mór agus an méid atá á íoc ag muintir Inis Oírr agus Inis Meáin. Beimid ag féachaint ar sin i gcomhthéacs an conartha fadtéarmach ón bhliain 2017 ar aghaidh.

De réir mar a thuigim, rinne an chomhairle chontae meastacháin ar na costais in 2012. Sílim go bhfuil na figiuírí cearta acu do na costais anois. Níl a fhios agam ar chuir an príomhfheidh- meannach na figiúirí sin os comhair an choiste.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Níor chuir.

Deputy Seán Kyne: Ní fhaca mé iad ar feadh tamaill. Chuala mé cuid de na figiúirí, mar shampla na costais i dtaobh an foreshore agus an harbour master.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Ní bhfuair an tAire Stáit briseadh síos mion.

5 Ferry Service to Inis Mór: Discussion (Resumed) Deputy Seán Kyne: Ní bhfuair.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: D’iarr muid briseadh síos mion inné, ach ní bhfuair muid é. An ea nach bhfuair an tAire Stáit é ach an oiread? Tá sé sin spéisiúil.

Deputy Seán Kyne: Mar eolas, sular thosaigh an obair ar an gcéibh nua a thógáil, bhí cinneadh déanta go mbeadh fodhlithe ag an gcomhairle chontae. Tarlóidh an rud céanna i gcás Inis Oírr.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Is údar imní é nach bhfuil figiúirí feicthe againn. D’iarr muid inné iad chomh maith. Ba mhór an difríocht idir €176,000 in 2012 agus suas le €260,000 cúpla bliain ina dhiaidh sin. Tá daoine ag rá liom - tá mé cinnte go bhfuil siad ag caint leis an Aire Stáit faoin ábhar seo - nach gcreideann siad gur féidir go bhfuil €250,000 á chaitheamh in aghaidh na bliana ar an gcéibh seo nuair is céibh nua as an bpíosa é chomh maith céanna.

Deputy Seán Kyne: Mar gheall ar na costais sin, thóg said an cinneadh 80 cent in aghaidh an phaisinéir a-----

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Cinnte.

Deputy Seán Kyne: Ghlac siad leis an táille sin. Mar a dúirt mé, táimid ag obair ar shocrú a fháil maidir leis an bhfigiúr sin idir Island Ferries agus Comhairle Chontae na Gaillimhe.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Go raibh maith agat.

Chairman: Bogfaimid ar aghaidh. Tá stádas agus cúraimí Comhar na nOileán á bplé againn ag an am céanna. An bhfuil ceisteanna ag na baill faoin ábhar sin?

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Tá brón orm. Cheap mé go raibh muid ag caint díreach ar-----

Chairman: Is féidir linn teacht ar ais go dtí an ábhar sin más maith leis an Seanadóir.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Dúirt an Cathaoirleach go raibh muid ag tosnú leis an tseirbhís farantóireachta ar Inis Mór.

Chairman: Ceart go leor. Iarraim ar an Teachta Ó Cuív labhairt ar an tseirbhís farantói- reachta go hInis Mór.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív: Ba mhaith liom comhghairdeas a dhéanamh le Aodhán Mac Cormaic as a bheith ceaptha mar stiúrthóir na Gaeilge sa Roinn. Tá fear agus státseirbhíseach an-mhaith ceaptha sa ról sin. Tá súil agam go n-éireoidh go breá leis ina chuid oibre.

Iarraim ar an Aire Stáit soiléiriú a thabhairt dom sa chomhthéacs seo. Glacaim leis nach féidir linn dul isteach sna mionchomhráití agus go mb’fhearr iad a fhágáil idir an Aire Stáit, Comhairle Chontae na Gaillimhe agus an farantóir. Is dóigh liom go bhfuil cúpla rud a bheidh á n-iarraidh ag na hoileánaigh. An mbeidh na huastáillí céanna i gceist in aon socrú a dhéanfar - má bhíonn airgead na Roinne i gceist - agus atá i gceist leis na hoileáin eile? Is iad na táillí sin ná €10 fillte do dhaoine fásta agus €6 fillte do ghasúir. Mar a míníodh anseo inné, má tá tuismitheoirí agus beirt ghasúir ag dul isteach is amach, tá difríocht de €22 - €32 in éadan €54 - i gceist.

Bíonn ar oileánaigh dul isteach is amach go minic. Bíonn cuid acu gafa le spórt. Go deimhin féin, tháinig lánchúlaí ar fhoireann mionúir na Gaillimhe i mbliana - ceann de na réalta peile 6 Joint Committee on Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs is fearr a fhacthas ag an aois seo - as Oileáin Árann. Chuile uair a théann sé isteach, bíonn air €12 a íoc. Ní smaoineodh daoine ar an mórthír go gcaithfidís an méid sin a íoc ag an aois sin le peil a imirt dá gcontae. Mar sin, tá sé riachtanach go mbeidh uastáillí i gceist. Dar liom, ní bheidh aon ghlacadh ag na hoileánaigh leis mura mbeidh a leithéid ann. Is é sin atá ráite acu. Ní hamháin an tréimhse ón 4 Eanáir go dtí an 17 Márta, ach an bliain uilig, atá i gceist anseo.

Cén socrú atá déanta don tréimhse amach anseo? Glacaim leis gur thagair an tAire Stáit don bhliain 2017. Tuigim go dtosóidh an conradh fadtéarmach ar 1 Eanáir 2018. Glacaim leis go dtógfaidh sé beagnach bliain. Sílim go bhfuil an conradh d’Inis Meáin agus d’Inis Oírr ag rith amach ag deireadh na bliana seo chugainn. An bhfuil cinnteacht ann don tréimhse idir Dheireadh Fómhair agus Nollaig 2017? Ní bheimid in ann an méid seo ama a chaitheamh ar an ábhar seo arís, agus an oiread sin éiginnteacht ann ó thaobh na n-oileánaigh de agus an oiread sin útamáil i gceist. Dar liom, caithfidh pé socrú atá le déanamh an tréimhse iomlán idir inniu agus cibé cén lá a thiocfaidh an conradh nua i bhfeidhm a chlúdach.

Mar a thuigeann an tAire Stáit agus an státseirbhíseach sinsearach lena ais, is cuma cad a déarfar leis an Aire Stáit faoi cé chomh sciobhtha agus is féidir tairiscint a lorg agus conradh a bhronnadh. Go minic, tarlaíonn rudaí a chuireann moill ar na próisis sin. Caithfidh an tAire Stáit glacadh leis go dtógfaidh sé níos faide an socrú seo a dhéanamh ná mar atá sé ag rá i láthair na huaire. Más féidir leis é seo a dhéanamh níos sciobthaí, beidh sé sin togha. Bíonn moill go mion minic nuair a théann ceisteanna anonn is anall. Is féidir é sin a fheiceáil i láthair na huaire leis an gconradh don tseirbhís aeir. Creidim go bhfuil an tAire Stáit beagnach réidh leis an gconradh sin a fhógairt. Is léir go dtógann na rudaí seo i bhfad níos faide ná mar a bhíonn súil. Is fearr réiteach a dhéanamh anois a chinnteoidh as seo go dtí cibé cén uair go bhfuil conradh fadtéarmach i gceist agus go bhfuil cinnteacht ann.

Tá dhá cheist á n-ardú agam. Is í ceist na dtáillí an chéad cheist. Glacaim leis go mbeidh comhréiteach ann. Tá an-dul chun cinn déanta ag an Aire Stáit agus bail ó Dhia air. Glacaim lena fhocal go bhfuil solúbthacht taispeáinte ag an Roinn. Tá súil agam go dtaispeánfaidh an chomhairle chontae an solúbthacht chéanna agus go mórmhór go dtaispeánfaidh an farantóir an solúbthacht chéanna. Fágfaidh mé é sin fúthu. Ní dóigh liom go mbeadh sé caoi, ceart nó cothrom níos mó a rá faoi sin ag an bpointe seo. Tá mé ag iarraidh deimhneacht a fháil faoi dhá bhunrud inniu. Tá ceist na dtáillí luaite agam. Ina theannta sin, an bhfuil socrú á dhéanamh a sheasfaidh go dtí go mbeidh conradh buan in áit?

Deputy Seán Kyne: Mar a dúirt mé leis an Seanadóir Ó Clochartaigh, tá sé ráite roimh ré go dteastaíonn conradh fadtéarmach i rith na bliana 2017 lena chinntiú nach dtarlóidh rud éigin mar seo arís. Ba chóir go mbeadh muintir Árann cinnte go mbeidh seirbhís acu chuile lá agus chuile sheachtain den bhliain. Ní cheart go mbeadh aon imní orthu maidir leis an tseirbhís i rith an gheimhridh. Tá mé sásta a rá go mbeimid ag tosnú ar chonradh d’Inis Mór go luath san athb- hliain. Mar is eol don Teachta, críochnóidh an conradh d’Inis Meáin agus Inis Oírr ag deireadh mí Dheireadh Fómhair na bliana seo chugainn. Beidh mé ag tosnú próiseas comhairliúcháin chun smaointí na hoileánaigh a fháil ag an tráth sin. Gheobhaidh mé amach an bhfuil siad sásta an trí oileán a chur le chéile ar chonradh amháin. Éisteoidh mé leis na smaointí atá acu maidir leis an difríocht idir conradh PSO agus conarthaí eile. Beidh mé ag breathnú ar an difríocht a bhaineann leis na táillí a íocann muintir Inis Mór. Glacaim leis go bhfuil siad ag íoc níos mó ná mar atá a chairde ar Inis Oírr agus Inis Meáin. Aontaím leis an Teachta gur-----

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív: Baineann an socrú i dtaobh na táillí le chuile oileán ó Oileán Thoraí go Oileán Chléire ó dheas. Tá mé ag caint faoin daonra ar Inis Toirc agus Inis Bó Finne, srl. Shílfeá go mbeadh Inis Mór an áit is saoire i measc na n-oileáin, ach ní mar sin atá. Is é 7 Ferry Service to Inis Mór: Discussion (Resumed) Inis Mór an áit is daoire is measc na n-oileáin. An féidir linn glacadh leis go mbeidh na táillí a bheidh le n-íoc ag muintir Inis Mór ón 4 Eanáir 2017 ar aghaidh, má tá aon airgead Roinne i gceist, ar an gcaoi céanna le chuile oileán eile sa tír? Molfainn gur cheart go mbeadh uastáillí de €10 i gcás daoine fásta agus €6 i gcás ógánaigh i gceist.

Deputy Seán Kyne: Níl mé chun gealltanas a thabhairt don Teachta maidir leis an méid a tharlóidh ó mí Eanáir ar aghaidh. Is é an rud is tábhachtaí ná go mbeidh seirbhís ann. Tá mé ag obair lena chinntiú go mbeidh seirbhís i mí Eanáir, i mí Feabhra agus i Mí an Mhárta. Beidh muid ag obair ar chonradh fadtéarmach i rith an ama sin. Breathnóidh muid ar na difríochtaí idir na táillí a ghearrtar ar na hoileáin trasna na tíre, Inis Mór san áireamh, sa chomhthéacs sin. Tá sé tábhachtach go bhfuilimid ag iarraidh an tseirbhís a chinntiú. Mar is eol don Teachta, níl conradh againn d’Inis Mór faoi láthair. Tá sé i gceist againn go mbeimid in ann teacht ar shocrú idir an farantóir agus an chomhairle chontae ó thaobh na táillí ar a bhfuilimid ag obair. Tá sé ráite go minic nach bhfuil fadhb ag an bhfarantóir leis an Roinn ná liomsa, ach leis na táillí ón gcomhairle chontae. Is é sin an fáth go bhfuilimid ag iarraidh teacht ar socrú. Deirim arís gurb é an rud is tábhachtaí ná go mbeidh seirbhís ann i rith mí Eanáir agus mí Feabhra. Tá mé ag obair ar sin. Beimid ag breathnú ar na táillí a ghearrtar faoin gconradh a bheidh i gceist ar feadh cúig bliana ó 2017 ar aghaidh. Beidh siad ar an leibhéal céanna ar na hoileáin uilig.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív: Baineann an pointe atá á dhéanamh agam leis an socrú idir an chomhairle chontae agus an farantóir. De réir mar a thuigim, bhí éileamh ann ón bhfarantóir go mbeadh íocaíocht de saghas éigin ar fáil ón Roinn le haghaidh mí Eanáir, mí Feabhra agus leath de mhí an Mhárta an bhliain seo chugainn. Níor mhaith liom méid na híocaíochta a phlé nó dul isteach sna mionsonraí. Má tá airgead i gceist, agus tuigim go bhfuil, ba cheart don Roinn dóthain airgid a chur ar fáil a chinnteoidh gur táillí de €10 agus €6 a bheidh i gceist. Ní cheart go mbeadh an Roinn taobh thiar den doras ó thaobh airgead a chur ar fáil nuair atá iarracht á déanamh a chinntiú go ngearrfar a leithéid de tháillí. Tá sé éasca a thomhas cé mhéad a chosnódh sé sin don bhfarantóir, ós rud é go bhfuil a fhios againn cé mhéad oileánach a théann isteach is amach go dtí na hoileáin áirithe seo. Bunaithe ar na figiúirí atá tugtha ag an bhfa- natóir, ceapaim go gcosnódh an difríocht idir na táillí mar atá siad agus na táillí laghdaithe atá molta agam thart ar €29,000. Má tá airgead á íoc ag an Roinn, ba cheart go mbeadh na táillí laghdaithe mar choinníoill. Beidh ar an Roinn tuilleadh airgid a chur ar an mbord más gá. Bhí orainn é sin a dhéanamh i gcásanna na hoileáin eile. Dá mbeadh cead ag na farantóirí a rogha de tháillí a ghearradh, bheadh an fordheontas níos lú ach bheadh na hoileánaigh ag íoc níos mó. Caithfidh an córas nua tosnú ar an 4 Eanáir seo chugainn. Níl aon mhaith a rá go socrófar arís é. Is ceist airgid é seo.

Deputy Seán Kyne: Bhí socrú déanta idir an Roinn agus an farantóir don gheimhreadh seo caite. Bhí costais ansin. Níor tharraing an farantóir an t-airgead sin siar mar gheall nár ghlac sé leis na fodhlithe agus ná táillí a leag an chomhairle chontae síos. Sílim go mbeimid ag íoc an t-airgead sin má bhíonn an farantóir sásta leis an socrú idir é agus agus an comhairle chontae. Níl aon chinneadh déanta go n-íocfaimid aon airgead don farantóir ón mhí seo chugainn amach. Níl na sonraí sin socraithe agus dá bhrí sin, níl mé chun an t-ábhar sin a phlé. Tuigim go bhfuil an Teachta ag iarraidh go mbeidh laghdú ar na costais do mhuintir Inis Mór. Mar a dúirt mé, is cinnte go mbeidh mé sásta breathnú ar an gconradh fadtéarmach a bheidh ann don tseirbhís ón bhliain 2017 amach.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív: Ba mhaith liom béim a chur ar phointe deireanach. Má tá an Roinn ag íoc airgead ar bith, ní bheidh aon ghlacadh leis muna mbeidh an t-uastáille céanna i gceist d’Inis Mór agus atá i gceist d’aon oileán eile amach ón gcósta. Má tá airgead á íoc ag

8 Joint Committee on Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs an Roinn le haghaidh mí Eanáir, mí Feabhra agus cuid de mhí an Mhárta, caithfidh na táillí bheith ar an leibhéal céanna d’Inis Mór agus atá siad do na oileáin eile. Muna bhfuil a leithéid de socrú i gceist, ní bheidh aon ghlacadh leis uaimse, ar aon chaoi. Ní dóigh liom go mbeidh aon ghlacadh leis ó na hoileánaigh ar Inis Mór má tá airgead Stáit á íoc le farantóir agus muna mbeidh an regime céanna táillí i gceist is atá i gceist ar chuile oileán - Oileán Thoraí, Oileán Árainn Mhór, Oileán Chliara, Inis Toirc, Inis Bó Finne, Inis Meáin, Inis Oírr agus an cúig oileán amach ó chósta Chorcaí. Tá deifir ar an gCathaoirleach agus mar sin, ní luafaidh mé iad go léir. Tuigeann baill an choiste an rud atá i gceist agam. Ní bheidh aon ghlacadh leis. Caithfear an t-airgead a fháil agus sin é. Mar a deirim, fiú bunaithe ar an bhfigiúr de €140,000 a bhí ag dul thart san aer, níl i gceist anseo ach €29,000.

Deputy Seán Kyne: Tá mé ag éisteacht. Tá na rudaí seo fós á bplé againn. Mar is eol don Teachta, bíonn próiseas soláthar poiblí i gceist i gcomhthéacs seirbhísí mar seo. Táimid ag breathnú ar chuile rud. Sílim gurb é an rud is tábhachtaí do mhuintir Árann ná go mbeidh seirbhís acu ón 4 Eanáir go dtí Lá Fhéile Pádraig. Táimid ag obair ar sin.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív: Má tá an tAire Stáit ag taistil leath an bhóthair, ba cheart dó taistil an bóthar uilig.

Chairman: Stopfaimid ansin. Is féidir an cheist a chur arís is arís eile. Ba mhaith liom gach rath a ghuí ar Aodhán Mac Cormaic ina phost nua. Is mian liom cúpla ceist a chur ar an Aire Stáit maidir leis an ábhar seo.

Nuair a bhí na daoine ó na hoileáin istigh linn inné, bhí an méid a bhí le rá acu dochreidte. Bhí siad ag caint faoi todhchaí na n-oileáin go léir. Thug siad cur síos dúinn faoi cé chomh deacair is atá sé maireachtáil ar na hoileáin anois, mar gheall ar na costais breise atá i gceist. Dúirt siad go bhfuil na deacrachtaí seo ag cur brú ar an daonáireamh. Tá daonáireamh Inis Mór ag titim. Tá sé an-deacair anois daoine a mhealladh ar ais. Tá daoine atá ina gcónaí thar lear ag smaoineamh ar teacht ar ais go dtí Inis Mór, ach níl a fhios acu an mbeidh seirbhísí aeir nó farantóireachta ann. Is drochrud é go bhfuil an easpa cinnteacht a bhaineann leis an bhfadhb seo ag cur bac orthu agus iad ag iarraidh a gcuid cinnithe a dhéanamh.

Is léir go bhfuil luach iontach ag baint le hInis Mór agus na hoileáin eile mar gheall ar an Wild Atlantic Way. Tá na hoileáin á ndíol ag an Stát thar lear. Faigheann an Stát airgead ar ais uathu mar gheall go bhfuil turasóirí atá ag iarraidh áiteanna ar nós Dún Aonghasa a fheiceáil. Is léir freisin go bhfuil easpa ionannais idir Inis Mór agus na hoileáin eile. Chuir sé isteach orm inné, agus b’fhéidir go bhfuil sé ag cur isteach ar an Aire Stáit inniu, nach bhfuil radharc trédhearcach ná eolas deimhneach cruinn againn ar na costais atá á gcur isteach sa phota chun na táillí breise a ghearradh ar mhuintir Inis Mór. Tá saghas faitíos ar gach duine go bhfuil an chomhairle chontae nó dream éigin eile ag iarraidh an cáin ar na hoileánaigh a úsáid mar cash cow chun an bearna a líonadh, seachas é sin a dhéanamh as buiséad amháin nó buiséad eile de chuid an chomhairle. Chuir sé isteach orm go huile is go hiomlán inné nach raibh conradh idir an Rialtas nó an comhairle chontae agus an farantóir. Bhí sé sin fágtha suas san aer. Ní raibh an farantóir glasáilte isteach i gconradh ionas go mbeadh todhchaí cinnte ag an tseirbhís. An bhfuil an tAire Stáit sásta a rá linn inniu go mbeidh, ó 2017 ar aghaidh, conradh ann agus gan aon amhras faoi agus go mbeidh Inis Mór ar chomhchéim leis na hoileáin eile maidir leis an bpraghas?

Deputy Seán Kyne: Dúradh go bhfuil an t-oileán fágtha gan chonradh agus tá sé sin ceart. Níl conradh ann. Ó thaobh na staire de, sa thréimhse ó 1 Feabhra 2008 go dtí 23 Eanáir 2013, bhí conradh idir an Roinn agus Island Ferries Teoranta chun seirbhís fharantóireachta paisinéirí 9 Community Development: Minister forA rts, Heritage, Regional, Ruraland GaeltachtA ffairs a chur ar fáil idir Ros an Mhíl agus Árann-Inis Mór chomh maith le seirbhís bus go Gaillimh agus ar ais. Ba é an costas iomlán ar feadh tréimhse an conradh ná €250,499. Sin €43,100 in aghaidh na bliana ar an meán. Is €47,405 an costas bliantúil a bhí ar an bliain deireadh den chonradh sin. Ó 2013 ar aghaidh, theip ar an Roinn aon chonradh a aontú don sheirbhís fharantóireachta go hÁrann in ainneoin iarrachtaí na Roinne tariscintí a fháil trí chomórtas so- láthar poiblí agus cainteanna leis an bhfarantóir. Níl dabht ach go raibh Island Ferries Teoranta ag cur seirbhís mhaith ar fáil don oileán le blianta anuas agus tá an comhlacht sin ag cur seirbhís ar fáil don oileán ó Feabhra 2013 gan aon chúnamh ón Stát, rud a léiríonn gur slí brabúsach atá i gceist.

Sin an t-aon oileán nach bhfuil seirbhís fharantóireachta ann ach bhí an farantóir sásta seirb- hís a chur ar fáil gan aon chúnamh. Bhí sé ráite ag an am go raibh an comhlacht sásta é a chur ar fáil i rith an gheimhridh. Sin an fáth nach raibh conradh idir an Roinn agus an farantóir. Mar gheall ar na táillí agus na cásanna cúirte agus ollrud mar sin, bhí bagairt ann don tseirbhís i rith an gheimhridh agus sin an fáth go bhfuilimid san áit ina bhfuilimid. Ó 2017 ar aghaidh, táim sásta go mbeimid in ann conradh a dhéanamh d’Inis Mór. Tá sé fíorthábhachtach agus, mar a dúirt mé, ceann de na príomhaidhmeanna ab ea é ó bhí 2007 ann. Aontaím go bhfuil a lán dushláin ann ó thaobh shaol na n-oileánach ach tá a lán obair mhaith déanta ar feadh na blianta ó thaobh chinnteacht seirbhísí. Tá an Roinn ag caitheamh a lán airgid chun a chinntiú go bhfuil seirbhísí ann do na hoileáin. Ceann de na fadhbanna ná nach mbíonn mórán iomaíochta ó thaobh seirbhísí agus nach mbíonn mórán rogha ann. Beidh conradh fadtéarmach don tseirbhís fharantóireachta d’Inis Mór. Sílim go ndéanfar cinneadh go luath. Tá sé sin ráite go minic agam ó thaobh na haeirseirbhíse, ach tá mé ag súil go mbeidh cinneadh ann go luath. Táim sásta breathnú ar na costaisí d’Inis Mór in aon chonradh fadtéarmach ó 2017 ar aghaidh.

Community Development: Minister for Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs

Chairman: Leanfaimid ar aghaidh anois leis an bplé ar Chomhar na nOileán. There is a connection - tá nasc ann - between Comhar na nOileán and the West Cork Development Part- nership. Do members wish to discuss them together or separately?

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Together.

Chairman: We will discuss these two items together. Does Deputy Michael Collins wish to speak first?

Deputy Michael Collins: Whatever.

Chairman: I will call Senator Ó Clochartaigh ar dtús mar bhí a lámh suas.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Bhí cur i láthair cuimsitheach againn maidir leis na deacrachtaí-----

Deputy Heather Humphreys: An bhfanfaidh an Seandóir liom dhá nóimint?

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Bhí cur i láthair cuimsitheach againn maidir leis an gclár Leader agus na comhlachtaí páirtnéireachta áirid atá luaite ag Comhar na nOileán agus West Cork Development Partnership. Is léir go raibh éagothroime maidir le cur i bhfeidhm an chláir Leader agus na comhlachtaí a roghnaíodh leis an gclár Leader a chur i bhfeidhm an t-am seo.

10 Joint Committee on Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs Tá sé ag dul ó mheabhair ó dhaoine cén fáth nár tugadh cead na hoileáin ar fad a chur isteach faoi phacáiste amháin faoi scáth Comhar Leader nó gur fágadh an creatlach sin mar a bhí roimhe seo. Bhí sé ag oibriú go maith.

An cás a cuireadh os ár gcomhair ná go bhfuil na hoileáin an-difriúil do na comhlachtaí atá ag feidhmiú ar an mórthír. Tá comhaontaithe, de réir mar a thuigeann muid, idir Comhairle Contae Chorcaí, Comhairle Contae Chiarraí, Comhairle Contae Mhaigh Eo agus Comhairle Contae Dhún na nGall maidir leis an gclár Leader ar na hoileáin eile, ach bhí deacrachtaí i gcás Chomhairle Chontae na Gaillimhe agus an chaoi ar leagadh amach na ceantair agus líon na gcomhlachtaí a bheadh ábalta cur isteach ar an gclár Leader.

Tá ceisteanna go leor le freagairt faoi sin. Bunaithe ar dhaonra, i gcontaetha ar nós Contae Chorcaí is cosúil go raibh cead trí limistéar Leader a bheith ann ach i gcás Chontae na Gaillimhe dúradh nach mbeadh i gceist ach limistéar amháin agus pacáiste amháin. An bhfuil sé sin ag luí leis na treoirlínte atá tagtha ón Eoraip? Thuig mise, bunaithe ar an daonra a bheadh i gContae na Gaillimhe, go gcaitheadh ar a laghad dhá limistéar Leader a bheith roghnaithe. Tuigeann muid gur lean cásanna cúirte maidir le sin ó thaobh an social inclusion and community activation programme, SICAP, agus go gcuireann se sin isteach ar an trí chomhlacht a bhí ag feidh- miú sa gceantar. Is iad sin Galway Rural Development, FORUM Connemara agus Comhar na nOileán. Fiú ag an bpointe seo, nach bhfuil sé ciallmhar go mbreathnófaí ar athbhreithniú a dhéanamh ar leagan amach na gcomhlachtaí Leader agus Comhar na nOileán a fhágáil i mbun na gcúraimí sin ar na hoileáin?

Tá an cineál togra a bhíonn ar bun ar na hoileáin an-difriúil de na tograí a bheadh ar bun ar an mórthír. Tá an-obair déanta ag Comhar na nOileán thar na blianta ar na hoileáin éagsúla. Tá saineolas maidir leis na riachtanais sin bailithe ag Comhar na nOileán thar na blianta. I ndáiríre, an cás a chuireadar os ár gcomhair ná go mbeidh cúlú iomlán i ndáiríre ar na seirbhísí a bheidh ar fáil. Is cuma cé chomh maith is a bheadh comhlacht ar an mórthír, ní bheadh an tuiscint ann agus ní bheadh an foireann lonnaithe ag an gcomhlacht ar na hoileáin in ann déileáil leis an gceist ar fad.

An glacann an Aire leis gur déanadh éagóir iomlán ar Chomhar na nOileán i leagan amach an chláir nua Leader? An bhfuil sí sásta athbhreithniú a dhéanamh ar an leagan amach sin? An féidir cás eisceachtúil a dhéanamh arís do Chomhar na nOileán, buiséad faoi leith a thabhairt dó agus treoir a thabhairt dá réir don Roinn agus don chomhairle contae eisceach a dhéanamh do Comhar na nOileán sa gcás seo ar fad?

Deputy Heather Humphreys: To give some background to the selection process, in 2015 an open call for expressions of interest was launched by the then Department of the Environ- ment, Community and Local Government from any group that could show broad local and community participation and wished to develop a local development strategy and be considered as a local action group for the purpose of the delivery of Leader in its respective area. This was stage 1 of the application process. Entities successful at stage 1 were invited to prepare a local development strategy and were provided with funding and a comprehensive template to assist with the developing the local development strategy. As part of the second stage in a number of subregional areas, including Galway, local development strategies were submitted by more than one interested party. The second stage of the process was managed by Pobal on behalf of the Department.

To be clear, the local development strategies for each of the 28 subregional areas were assessed by a national selection committee chaired by Dr. Tommy Cook of the Dublin Institute of 11 Community Development: Minister forA rts, Heritage, Regional, Ruraland GaeltachtA ffairs Technology and included representatives from the then Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, the Department of Agriculture Food and Marine, Bord Iascaigh Mhara, Limerick Institute of Technology, Teagasc, Enterprise Ireland and Fáilte Ireland. While the Department of Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs was represented on the national selection committee, the Minister had no authority over the committee nor any role in the selection process. I understand that the islands were not grouped together as regions because they were decided on the basis of the local community development committees structure so that the local development strategies were aligned to the local economic and community plans. In Cork, there were three local community development committees so three subregional areas were put in place.

I will not get into the issue around Galway rural development, which is a different issue about east Galway, about which I will speak later. I am clear about the good work of Comhar na nOileán and have received strong representations from my colleagues, including the Minister of State, Deputy Kyne, about the importance of Comhar na nOileán from an islands perspective. This is separate from the Leader programme. It is from an islands perspective. I am trying to be as supportive as I can in terms of my wider remit regarding the islands and the Gaeltacht. I will continue to work with them.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Will the Minister clarify the following for me? As the Minister stated there were three local action groups, LAGs, allowed in Cork but only one was allowed for Galway. What is the recommended population per local action group that the EU recommends? I do not know the population of Cork but Deputy Michael Collins might know that. If one divides it by three, one arrives at a rough figure of 50,000 people per LAG. My understanding is that the number of people in County Galway, including the islands, goes way over the recommended number of people recommended for a local action group, so that the Galway area should at least have been divided into two local action groups. The Department initially precluded the possibility of the islands being included as a local action group because the local community and development committee, LCDC, structure prescribed that the local action groups had to be within the county boundaries so therefore it would be impossible for Comhar na nOileán Teoranta to make a local action group, LAG, application based on all of the islands at the time. There was a fundamental flaw in the structure of the LAGs, in the way the Department was asking for the LAGs to be designated.

My understanding is that Comhar na nOileán Teoranta then subsequently worked with the LCDC on an application for the Leader programme for the whole of the county as per the guidelines laid down for one LAG. Representatives spoke to officials in the county council, worked with the local community and development committee, LCDC, and joined forces as such with the LCDC and Galway Rural Development, GRD, on the application. Subsequently, FORUM Connemara Limited made a different application, and I have been told that the FORUM Conne- mara Limited application for half of the county has been successful. The guidelines and the goalposts seem to have changed in the middle of the process. How did that happen? Why was it allowed to happen? Was there oversight? It seems strange that an application from one group of stakeholders which was made for an LAG which covered the whole county, as prescribed by the LCDC, lost out to another applicant. I have nothing against FORUM Connemara Limited whatsoever. I would have preferred if three LAGs could have been maintained in County Gal- way and that would have been a much more practical way to do it. How could the goalposts have changed halfway through in order that we have a situation where only half the county is covered by an LAG. That seems strange. I know that Comhar na nOileán Teoranta feels very much wronged by the whole process and, even at this late stage, we need to question how this

12 Joint Committee on Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs process has been handled.

Deputy Heather Humphreys: The decision is not based on the size of population but on the LCDC structure. That was the way it was progressed. It was in the then Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, and all these processes had been gone through and independently assessed and decided before the function was transferred to my Department.

Regarding Galway, the local development strategy for the implementation of the Leader programme in Galway was submitted by FORUM Connemara Limited and the Galway LCDC. The strategy submitted by Galway LCDC covered the full regional area for Leader in Galway while the strategy submitted by FORUM Connemara Limited covered the municipal district of Connemara, about one third of the area and less than one quarter of the population. The strategy submitted by FORUM Connemara Limited was selected by the selection committee and this decision was upheld following an appeal by the LCDC. FORUM Connemara Limited has one particular area that it deals with. A funding agreement has been signed with FORUM Connemara Limited for the delivery of Leader in the area of west Galway which is covered by its strategy. A second expression of interest and strategy selection process was launched for the east Galway region. That was the region not covered by the FORUM Connemara Limited strategy, and expressions of interest were received from Galway Rural Development, GRD, for the full east Galway region and by Comhar na nOileán Teoranta for the municipal district of Oranmore, which only covers part of east Galway. That is in a process at present. Galway Rural Development and Comhar na nOileán Teoranta are in an independent selection process. I have no input into that - absolutely none. They are in an independent selection process but I understand they are working together, they are in discussions regarding a joint strategy and I await the outcome of that.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Does the Minister not think that sounds absolutely bonkers? I understand that most of the rural areas are covered by an LAG. Therefore there is an indicative population number per LAG. I think it is somewhere around 77,000, if I am correct. The population of the whole of Galway is greater than that, but the issue is that the direction given to all three companies was that there would be one LAG for the whole of Galway to be administered through the LCDC. What the Minister is saying now is that halfway through the process, it was decided by somebody - I am not sure who - that the LAG could be split up, with the result that the municipal district of Connemara has been awarded to FORUM Connemara Limited and subsequently we have heard of a new competition for the rest of the county, which is going to mean at least one more LAG or two if Comhar na nOileán Teoranta is successful in contesting the Oranmore area. We could end up under this process with three LAGs, which is what people asked for initially, but three LAGs in almost the wrong places.

It just seems absolutely bonkers. It seems totally illogical, it is really disenfranchising the islanders and it is breaking up the tradition, the hard work and the continuity of the work that was done by Comhar na nOileán Teoranta. The powers have transferred from the then Depart- ment of the Environment, Community and Local Government to the Department of Arts, Heri- tage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs. We flagged these issues and that this was a danger way back when the Bill was being debated by the then Minister, Phil Hogan, in the Seanad and the Dáil. Surely, the Minister could admit that this hames of a solution needs to be rectified for the good of the people locally who are trying to put projects forward.

Deputy Heather Humphreys: There was nothing to preclude groups from coming forward and putting in a bid for that. It was an independent process. It was reviewed and the outcome 13 Community Development: Minister forA rts, Heritage, Regional, Ruraland GaeltachtA ffairs was upheld. I did not have any input into this. This is the outcome of the process. That is the way it is now.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: They made the bid under the process that was there.

Deputy Heather Humphreys: They were not successful.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: It was like making a bid for a minibus and what happened halfway through the process was that the powers that be decided that instead of a minibus it would be two or three cars. FORUM Connemara Limited got one of the cars and the other car was given to the other group. The rules appear to have changed and there is no logic to how they changed. It seems very unfair.

Deputy Heather Humphreys: FORUM Connemara Limited in its bid demonstrated an ability to deliver to the islands and this was confirmed by the selection committee. That is all I can say. The independent process has been gone through, it has been reviewed and this is the outcome.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Was it reviewed by the Department? Did the Depart- ment of Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs review the system?

Deputy Heather Humphreys: No. It was an independent review. A retired senior official from the Office of the Attorney General - a very well respected official - reviewed it and upheld it.

Deputy Michael Collins: I listened to some of the questions. “Absolutely bonkers” is the correct terminology.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: It is very true.

Deputy Michael Collins: It is very true. I can state that categorically on behalf of the people of west Cork in my constituency. We in west Cork have been long suffering, and I made the Minister aware of this in recent weeks.

I have a number of questions to which I would like answers. The more I hear from other Deputies on the committee, and the more that Leader companies have attended joint committee meetings in the past six to eight weeks, the more I realise that there needs to be an independent investigation into this whole affair. It stinks from start to finish. It is bad practice. It is an em- barrassment for any Department to be standing over the process that has gone on here. I have a number of questions.

I come from a constituency, Cork South-West, that has taken many serious hits in recent years. I am passionate about my people and about west Cork I am passionate to deliver and this is not delivery. This is a blow to west Cork beyond all belief. It is true in the previous Govern- ment that Garda stations, banks and post offices closed, there were massive farm penalties and fishermen were thrown out of their waters, so to speak, but the bottom line was that we had a shinning light, a Leader company that delivered an honest and clear programme to the people of west Cork, and now it has been taken off the pitch. There are no real answers, no matter what way one turns it. I mean no disrespect to the Minister personally but I have not yet heard a reasonable reason as to why it was taken off. It delivered clear and honest programmes. I believe it was taken out of commission because it was honest.

I have a number of questions, and I know it will be difficult for the Minister to answer them 14 Joint Committee on Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs right now because there are quite a lot of questions, but they are very relevant. The first question is about the scores. Could they be made available from each of the 28 areas where decisions were made and will the Minister kindly publish them? The local development strategies were to be designed through public consultation but in west Cork it was done by consultants. Will the Minister indicate why this was necessary? Cork County Council had three implement- ing partners supporting its bid so why were two teams of consultants engaged by the council, including one from the Minister’s own constituency? Perhaps the Minister could explain how they were selected and at what cost. Why did Pobal not provide scores for the evaluation of the last west Cork bid? Was this done in all of the other 28 areas? These are very serious questions that need answers.

Why has the EU Commission now confirmed that it will investigate a second complaint from the West Cork Development Partnership with regard to irregularities in the local action group, LAG, selection? What type of process leaves the West Cork Development Partnership, whose strategy was the highest scoring in the last programme, as the only LAG with no roll-out in this current programme? Will the Minister indicate if all strategies that have been selected by the Department will be published publicly, and when this will happen? The information on the programme delivery arrangements for west Cork is very patchy. I said this to the Minister last week and she seemed to be caught by surprise, and I do not have as many officials around me as she does. The programme is now going to be delivered from the Aran Islands. I mean no disrespect to the islanders but the people who deliver the programme are from the Aran Is- lands. I have spoken to them myself and that is what they have told me. The local community development committee is set up in west Cork and it must try to roll out a programme, as the development partnerships have previously done, but one needs to have the people on the ground and they need to be from west Cork. They need to have experience in rolling out a programme, as the West Cork Development Partnership had rolled out that excellent programme over the past 20 to 25 years. We all know it did the Fuchsia Brand. It was untouchable with regard to partnerships. It is now untouchable because someone in the Department did not want it and I would like to know why.

Deputy Heather Humphreys: First, the West Cork Development Partnership went into a competitive process and was not successful. That is the way it is. It was a competitive process and it was aware of that when it went into it. The partnership was unsuccessful. It was an independent process, it was reviewed and the decision was upheld. The Deputy asked me a number of questions about details. The selection committee obviously would have that information. I am not privy to any of that information but I will ask the selection committee if this information can be made available. I must check with it as I am not sure.

I want to be very clear. The Deputy asked me a question two weeks ago at this committee. Comhar na nOileán is delivering parts of the Leader programme in Donegal, Mayo and west Cork because it deals mainly with islands and it was the successful partner in the bid for each of those counties. Again, that is an independent process. There will be a local Leader office in Clonakilty and the two other partners are Avondhu Blackwater Partnership and the South East Cork Area Development, which have extensive experience in the Cork area. In fairness to the West Cork Development Partnership, it continues to deliver a number of other services, such as the social inclusion and community activation programme, SICAP, Tús, the rural social scheme, RSS, the better energy warmer home scheme and rural recreation, which is funded through my Department. The partnership continues to deliver a fairly wide range of programmes and this information is on its website.

15 Community Development: Minister forA rts, Heritage, Regional, Ruraland GaeltachtA ffairs Chairman: I ask that the Minister come back to the committee before next Wednesday with answers to some of the questions on which the Minister must get a second opinion, such as whether strategies can be published. There is a committee meeting on Wednesday, 21 De- cember.

Deputy Heather Humphreys: I will certainly try.

Chairman: It would be useful for us to know at that stage if the information can be made public.

Deputy Heather Humphreys: If it is possible, I will certainly do that.

Deputy Michael Collins: As I have said to the Minister, the EU Commission has confirmed that it will investigate a second complaint from the West Cork Development Partnership about irregularities in the LAG selection. We are not treating the matter lightly and we need more clear answers as to what happened. I again ask the Minister, as I asked her at the outset, if she will set up an independent investigation into what has gone on in west Cork. It looks as if it was shambles in many more places also, perhaps throughout the State.

Deputy Heather Humphreys: I wish to be clear. This was an open, fair and competitive process. It was based on merit of strategy, including the capacity of the LAG, the quality of the strategy and value for money. The West Cork Development Partnership chose to apply independently. It had the opportunity to develop a strategy with the local community development committee, LCDC, and it was aware of the risks in a competitive process. There was no auto- matic right or entitlement for any organisation to deliver Leader. It was a competitive process.

On EU and Leader funding, a supplementary €3.5 million was provided by the Cork local authority for Cork county and additional funding for rural communities of €1.25 million for west Cork which is welcome. The Commission has not launched an investigation; it has sought additional information, which the Department is providing. A complaint was made on the basis of an issue around state aid but the Department does not consider this to be state aid. There is no economic activity and the local community development committee is only distributing the funds to rural communities, it is not the beneficiary of those funds. I understand there is no formal investigation but information has been requested and the Department is providing it.

Deputy Michael Collins: I will continue to call for an independent investigation into what happened in west Cork. I will not be happy until I get it. I want to deliver to west Cork the reason that the West Cork Development Partnership was taken off the pitch. No official, or the Minister, has yet explained that properly to me. There is something wrong and we need to get to the bottom of it. I am not happy about it. I am not here to challenge the Minister and I have no disrespect for the Minister whatsoever, but I have an issue with regard to the West Cork Devel- opment Partnership and why it was taken off the pitch. The Minister can talk about independent processes and all of that, but I asked a lot of questions that she has not answered yet. She says that she needs time, and I accept and respect that.

Chairman: The questions asked by the Deputy are the pertinent questions for getting behind where we are currently. The Minister has been asked to come back to the committee next Wednesday with her understanding of her ability to make that information known. If the committee has that information, it will allow us to get to the heart of what Deputy Collins is getting at. Where we are now is now just going back and forth in the same space.

Deputy Michael Collins: With respect to the Chairman, I have been looking for these an- 16 Joint Committee on Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs swers for months.

Chairman: Sure.

Deputy Michael Collins: I put west Cork first but west Cork has not been put first in this case and we need answers.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív: The first thing I would suggest is that the information requested be provided as if it was a freedom of information, FOI request, without the six weeks that an FOI takes - in other words, using the same criteria that personal information cannot be divulged, etc., but all the information that can be divulged will be divulged. Otherwise, all we would have to do is to put in FOIs to get the information. An FOI, however, often means that one trawls information that nobody is interested in and bits of paper that are irrelevant.

The Minister inherited the greatest mess from what was quite an orderly situation, if I may say so myself. In 2011, the arrangement was quite simple; a company would deliver what is now SICAP, Leader, Tús, the rural social and recreation schemes and all those programmes in each area. It was one company, one area. In that way we created a one stop shop for community-led development in each area. If something had gone awry because there had to have been two bids or due to some arcane EU rules, then I would accept it because it seems that níl bun ná barr - there is no top or bottom - to EU rules in the way they can stop the State doing rational things. None of this mess, however, had anything to do with the EU. It had everything to do with the previous Government which decided to rip up the script that had worked, where everyone was happy, and to bring the LCDCs into the game. It made a hotchpotch of it all. Nowhere is that more evident than in west Cork and Galway. In Galway, we wound up in the courts in respect of the social inclusion and community activation programme, SICAP. All three companies in Galway wanted the programme to be divided between them, as before - that is, Comhar na nOileán, FORUM Connemara and Galway Rural Development. The latter had no interest in west Galway but, because of a decision to the effect that only one company in the county would deliver SICAP, it was a winner-take-all scenario and that created a problem.

We then moved on to the Leader programme. It is fine to say that the independent process gave rise to a particular answer. Of course, that was the case. Perhaps from the point of com- mencement to the stage when an answer was obtained, there was utter integrity in the process. I do not know, but I presume so. I also presume that if an investigation took place, it would be found that the independent assessors acted with integrity. Two things are absolutely clear, however. One is that the LCDC, Galway Rural Development and Comhar na nÓileán were under the impression that if they not bid for the entire area, they could not be victorious.

FORUM read matters differently. Even though it was not apparent and everyone said the contrary, FORUM guessed that if it bid for part of the area, it could be successful in that regard and that the other part of the area would be the subject of further bids. Is it not maddening to think that for the main bidders, including the LCDC, there could be such a different interpreta- tion of the same request for tender? If the companies had understood it in the way FORUM understood it - and they were seen as the outliers - each one would have bid for exactly what they had before. Galway Rural Development would have bid for east Galway, Comhar na nÓileán would have bid for the Gaeltacht, and FORUM would have bid for the lán-Ghaeltacht part of Connemara, exactly as before. There would have been no conflict, no argument and everyone would have gone home happy because, presumably, the plan would be up to standard. I understand that both plans passed, but that FORUM’s was higher and everyone would have got what they wanted. 17 Community Development: Minister forA rts, Heritage, Regional, Ruraland GaeltachtA ffairs Some responsibility must be accepted by the people who put out a tender from a Department - I think it was the Department with responsibility for the environment that put it out to tender initially. That tender was so opaque, nobody understood it. In this case, funnily enough, even though everyone said they were wrong, the only ones who understood it were FORUM.

That leads us on to the debacle in west Cork. What happened there was that Comhar na nÓileán believed that if it wanted to retain the islands of west Cork, it could not bid for them as a stand-alone area. I heard no complaint about it being organised from Aran because they had a local person employed on one of the islands off west Cork. They believed that the only way of getting involved in west Cork was to join the LCDC. I understand that the West Cork Development Company stood aside from the process. As happened in Galway, they put the two at loggerheads. Whereas Comhar na nÓileán did not succeed in Galway - and even missed out on getting the Aran Islands - it actually won in west Cork as part of the LCDC package. Therefore, what it failed to do in Galway, it succeeded in doing in Cork and got a whole lot of territory that it had to take along with the islands because that was part of the package. In that way, west Cork lost out.

This was a recipe to put one company against another. I have no doubt that from the point the tenders were put out, the people who handled it did so according to the bizarre rules. Two things are clear, however. Very bad political decisions were made by the Minister’s prede- cessors in response to this matter. I remember in particular the former Minister, Phil Hogan, who is now a European Commissioner. He messed up the septic tanks, water and the Leader programme. He then hightailed it out of the country and left everybody, including the current Minister, to try to clean it up after him.

With bad political decisions having been made, the tendering process was so ambiguous that some of the best minds in community development, including those employed by the LCDCs in Cork and Galway, could not understand the tender. They misread it and thought they either had to bid for the full area or nothing. It is a mess. From Galway’s viewpoint, we have a bizarre situation that the viability of the whole island of Inis Oírr has been put at risk by the Minister’s Department. That is because the viability of Comhar na nÓileán’s headquarters, which was perfectly sustainable when they had the island and the Gaeltacht of south Connemara for Leader and SICAP, is now undermined. If that most important employer is undermined on Inis Oírr, which is a very small island - but with probably the best population structure, as the stiúrthóir will be able to advise the Minister in terms of figures, population structure and school numbers - one will put the island’s viability at risk. This employer provided top-class employment on the island. As we know, when an anchor employer disappears, other employment tends to fade as well.

What is the Minister going to do to compensate the island for the massive mortal blow she has delivered to it? How can she ensure that the company will survive until we get back to a more rational bidding process that would ensure fair answers and the sustainability of one of the finest Irish-speaking islands?

Chairman: Unfortunately, the Minister has only one minute in which to answer.

Deputy Heather Humphreys: We have already gone over the process and much of the history. The process was completed when the function was transferred to my Department. My priority was to get the money out to communities, which is the big issue. Most of the contracts have now been signed, expressions of interest are coming in and it is working. As I said ear- lier, Galway Regional Development and Comhar na nÓileán are in the independent selection 18 Joint Committee on Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs process. I understand that they are working together and are in discussion regarding a joint strategy. I must await the outcome of that.

The Deputy and I have discussed the separate point concerning Comhar na nÓileán. I have received strong representations from Deputy Ó Cuív, the Minister of State, Deputy Kyne, and a number of other Deputies about the importance of Comhar na nÓileán from an island perspective. I am trying to be as supportive as possible in terms of my wider remit regarding the islands and the Gaeltacht, and I will continue to work with them. I understand the frustration that funding needs to go out to east Galway as quickly as possible. I want to see that happen- ing by progressing this matter as quickly as I can. At the end of the day it is about getting the money out to those communities that require it in order to get on with projects that need to be developed. That will certainly revitalise and assist in the economic development of rural Ire- land, which is the most important thing.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív: I have a quick one-line question.

Chairman: This is an indulgence.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív: Would the Minister consider travelling to Galway after Christmas to visit the Department, the Údarás, and then go out to the three Aran Islands to see for herself what we are talking about? She should go to Inis Mór in particular to see the challenges relating to transport. Inis Meáin has population challenges, while Inis Oírr has challenges due to the mess up of Comhar na nÓileán.

Deputy Heather Humphreys: I have met Údarás na Gaeltachta and been down in their offices in Furbo. I understand the issues about the islands, which have been outlined very clearly to me. We will continue to work with them and try to find a solution that will benefit everybody. I do not want to give a commitment about going to the islands because there are many things being scheduled for the new year. I do not want to give that commitment but I would be delighted to go at some stage when I get an opportunity.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív: I mean no disrespect to the Aire Stáit, who is doing a fine job, but, ultimately, Deputy Humphreys is Aire na Gaeltachta.

Chairman: The Deputy is two minutes over time again.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív: As long as the plane is flying-----

Chairman: We have agreed the amount of time we share, so we will move on to the next issue.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív: -----it is ten minutes out and ten minutes in. The Minister could do the three islands in a day and it would be a short day at that. It would be no bother. I ask her to make it her business to go to the island in January.

Mary Robinson Centre: Minister for Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Af- fairs.

Chairman: The next issue on the clár is the proposed Mary Robinson centre in Ballina, County Mayo. I will start on that. This is a very important issue because Mary Robinson is one of the most important political individuals to come out of this country in the past 100 years 19 Mary Robinson Centre: Minister forA rts, Heritage, Regional, Ruraland GaeltachtA ffairs. and one of our most important Presidents. Many people throughout the country are very proud of the legacy she has left behind in all her roles in her service to the State and internationally. There is no doubt the archive she leaves is of great interest and value to many people. There is also great logic to locating that archive in an accessible space in the region where she comes from. The desire to have it located in Ballina in County Mayo was a good and logical desire and one that this type of committee would, in general, be in favour of. Unfortunately, the issue got bogged down in a number of difficulties when it came to financing. The first major difficulty was that it was a break in precedent. All former Presidents gifted their archives to the State so that people could access them. This break with precedent meant there was going to be a tax relief drawn down from the State for the archive. The Minister’s Department played a pivotal role in this entire process. It is clear the process was not going to work because there was a reversal of the process that was initially laid out by the Victoria House Foundation.

Was due diligence carried out by the Department when it decided to fund this particular project? Although the particular building in hand was going to be purchased by the county council, it was understood to be far more expensive than the value that was put on it. A local Garda station, which had closed down right beside it, with equal, if not more, space was on sale a few years ago for far less money. The council entered into a kind of blank-cheque situation whereby it came to the Department and said that if there were any unforeseen costs, it would cover them. There was confusion over the value of the property. It also emerged that the property was in a structural condition which would necessitate significant investment of hundreds of thousands of euros just to make it ready for use for the project. The other issue that came into play was the manner in which the Department made the decision to provide this funding. Nor- mally, funding would be measured and decided upon within particular sectors, projects or areas within the Department but I understand this does not fall into any of those. Will the Minister address those particular issues. Was there due diligence? How did the Minister feel about another State organisation writing a blank cheque and entering into a project in circumstances where the building was not in good structural condition and where the costs would be borne by the State?

Deputy Heather Humphreys: To be clear, the council, not the Department, was the project promoter. It was not considered necessary to carry out due diligence because we were not the promoter of the project. The project was being assessed by the Department and the grant approved on a set of standard conditions. These conditions were put in place. Mayo County Council was the promoter and it conceived, developed and procured funding for the project because there were other funding sources coming forward. It was to be responsible for the centre’s operation when the project was complete. As the project promoter, Mayo County Council is responsible for employing a competent design team, the quantity surveyor and the project manager and would have the control to ensure that the project went according to plan.

There have been a number of projects that my Department funded in a similar way. People came forward with a number of different schemes. One of the major projects awarded grants in recent years was that relating to Wexford Opera House, which got €31 million. It all comes out of the A7 subhead of my Department by means of which capital infrastructure is funded. Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann and its 15 centres were given €19 million; the Athlone Little The- atre was given €30,000; Boston College Active Research Limited got €25,600; Druid Theatre in Galway got €1.1 million; the Gaiety Theatre in Dublin got €7.8 million; and the Gate Theatre got €2.1 million. There are a number of different projects that have come in over the years that were funded in that way. Most recently, we worked with the GPO and funded it to the tune of €7 million but it was responsible for the project. It was the same with the National Archives and the National Concert Hall. That is the way we work with different organisations. We assist

20 Joint Committee on Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs them in bringing forward projects.

As the Chairman said, this project was in Ballina and I went to visit the town. I met with the county manager and felt this was an opportunity to move such a centre outside of the city. The Chairman can appreciate that was attractive when looking at the project because it was something in rural Ireland. It would allow people to come to Ballina. Mary Robinson is very well known in terms of human rights. It was looked at because it was her family home. The place where it was located was important in her childhood and formative hears so it was certainly a good location.

Chairman: We will have to break because there is a vote in the Dáil. We will reconvene after the vote is taken. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Sitting suspended at 3.50 p.m. and resumed at 4.25 p.m.

Chairman: Tosnóimid arís i seisiún poiblí. Before we were interrupted, I was trying to get answers from the Minister to a number of questions. It is important not to conflate these prob- lems with the value of the archive and the location to which it is going. There is nobody on the island who has any difficulty with its value or location. The questions relate purely to the due diligence the Department had in respect of the entire project. As the Minister knows, the Gal- way arthouse cinema is a major difficulty and, I am sure, a thorn in the side of the Department. It is standing there unused after millions of euro were poured into it and after the Department had to pour in more than what was initially estimated.

I am amazed that the Department would allocate €2 million to a project and not carry out due diligence. I understand that the Minister says that there was an assessment done. Would it be possible, in the spirit of new politics, that the assessment might be made visible to members of this committee?

The Department gave permission for the €2 million to be drawn down. At the same time, one of the key elements of the project was Ms Mary Robinson’s application for tax relief on her archive. That application did not fit the criteria under the law. I understand from communica- tions back and forth between the Minister’s Department and the Department of Finance and reported on “Prime Time” that this particular archive was outside the strict criteria laid down under legislation because it contained more than documentation. In other words, it contained other elements as well. Other issues arose. There was a controversy over the value of the building in that there were alternatives in Ballina that were far cheaper. There were controversies regarding the disrepair of the building and it was going to need hundreds of thousands of euro more to actually make it fully stable and utilisable. A State organisation, namely, the county council, was entering into a blank-cheque situation whereby unforeseen costs would be loaded on the shoulders of the people of Mayo in the future. Was it not necessary for the State to have confidences regarding these issues before it gave the go-ahead for the drawdown of the €2 million?

Deputy Heather Humphreys: First, I wish to clarify that there is absolutely nothing to hide here. This is a normal process. I wish to be clear about this. The onus on ensuring compliance with the public spending code as published by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform lies, in the first instance, with the project promoter. That, of course, is Mayo County Council. It must ensure compliance with the public spending code, end of story. Under the provisions of the code, a cost-benefit analysis is required for projects with a total cost of €20 million or more. Given the financial parameters involved, a requirement for such an analysis

21 Mary Robinson Centre: Minister forA rts, Heritage, Regional, Ruraland GaeltachtA ffairs. did not arise for the Mary Robinson centre. My Department will ensure it is satisfied that the project is in compliance with the relevant requirements of the code before releasing any funding to Mayo County Council. There are checks and balances within my Department. All the funding has to be in place and we must be satisfied that everything is lined up before we pay out any money, and money has not been paid out on this project. Approval in principle was given to progress the project.

The application under section 1003 fully fitted the criteria.

Chairman: It did.

Deputy Heather Humphreys: Following that, it was a decision of the Revenue Commis- sioners regarding the valuation, but I am very clear that this project did fit the criteria.

Chairman: Is it the Minister’s view that reports by “Prime Time” that the Department had written letters stating that it did not fulfil the criteria are incorrect?

Deputy Heather Humphreys: I do not know which reports it is referring to but I know that this project did fit the criteria. I cannot answer that question but I know that it was properly assessed and that it fitted the criteria.

Chairman: Will it be possible for members to be privy to the assessment the Minister mentioned?

Deputy Heather Humphreys: Yes, we will certainly do that.

Chairman: We would appreciate that because it would be beneficial for us to understand the steps and mechanisms the Department goes through in any of these projects. I ask that question because there is a responsibility on Deputies and Senators to have levels of oversight of the spending of State money with regard to such projects.

Deputy Heather Humphreys: Absolutely.

Chairman: Another aspect that caused me some concern was the fact that some of the promoters of the project were also the people who were to benefit financially from it. Did that raise eyebrows in the Department? I refer to some of the individuals behind the project. I understand the project was promoted by a partnership of Victoria House, NUI Galway, the county council and so on and that some of those individuals were also the owners of the house in question which was to be the location of the library.

Deputy Heather Humphreys: I do not know. The project was presented to me by Mayo County Council and, as far as I was concerned, it was the project promoter.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív: As far as I am concerned, the decision by Mary Robinson to take or not to take the tax under the law was for her to make. It is not of any relevance to the Department other than confirming that it falls under the Acts. It is a mechanical process. She was right to say that she would not try to claim it. I believe that the proposal made in the 1960s should be implemented, that is, that all presidential material should be donated to the State at the end of a presidency. It would be a good idea to follow through on that and make sure there is a presidential room or rooms in the National Museum of Ireland, as proposed by a former President, to which all the material should be left. Most of our former Presidents brought different gifts to the job and had interesting archives. As the gifts they get as President and the papers they collect are relevant to the job, the presidency papers should automatically return to 22 Joint Committee on Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs the State in due course.

First, on the particular issue, I take it this project was site specific in that this was the location where Mary Robinson grew up. It is similar to building the interpretative centre for Pearse’s cottage near Pearse’s cottage because that is where it was located. There are constraints with regard to the sites at the location where one would choose to build the interpretative centre because that is where it happened. We are dealing with Moore Street currently, which is site specific also. The Minister might confirm if I am correct in that.

Second, I presume there is a procedure in the Department with applications under this particular subhead. The Civil Service, from executive officer or higher executive officer level up- wards, gets an application from, say, Mayo County Council, the opera house in Wexford and so on. They prepare a file which goes through the various stages and is then sent to the Secretary General, certainly in the case of a big grant such as this one, who is also the Accounting Officer and is responsible for the process of spending, unlike the Minister who is responsible for policy. That then goes to the Minister to be signed off.

When this file came to the Minister, there was a recommendation either to sign off or to refuse the application for a grant. The Minister might confirm if there was a recommendation. We can get all this information through a freedom of information, FOI, request. The information the Chairman sought is not available. All any of us had to do was put in a FOI request. I did not bother to do so. However, the Minister can confirm today that a file came to her in the normal way that was prepared by the public service through the various layers. In most cases, Ministers would get a recommendation either to sign or not sign. The Minister could sign to grant even if it was recommended to her not to do so, although it is not very common. The Minister might confirm for us if a proposal came to her recommending that this grant be given, and she might also confirm the size of the grant.

The arthouse cinema in Galway has been mentioned. There can be cost overruns as issues can arise in any project, but I always took the view, and I took it with the Jeanie Johnston, that when we have gone as far as spending €12 million, we might as well spend €13 million and finish the project than leave nine tenths of the build lying idle. I hope the money will be put together to open the arthouse cinema to the public because currently it is a useless eyesore on a premium site.

We get very excited about some of these cases. I see the Jeanie Johnston moored on the quays, on which a fantastic job was done. Five years from now, will anybody be wondering whether the cost of that project reached €500,000, not because money was wasted but because it went over budget for one reason or another? That can happen on building projects. Many community projects go over target. I always took a sanguine view in that if something unforeseen arose, we should just deal with it. As long as there is not misappropriation of funds, so be it because the greater good would say that an open theatre is better than a four fifths finished theatre. The Minister might let us know if we are near endgame in terms of getting the arthouse cinema finished and opened to the public. Whatever innocent mistakes were made by the promoters, I am happy they did what they did for the best reasons. If they did not, there are many procedures that can be followed, including the Comptroller and Auditor General. If that is the problem and somebody believes there was misappropriation of funds, this issue should be dealt with by the Committee of Public Accounts, not this committee.

We have reached the stage where we have become great bean counters but sometimes we lose sight of the big picture. We need prestige cultural projects. They are not commercially 23 Mary Robinson Centre: Minister forA rts, Heritage, Regional, Ruraland GaeltachtA ffairs. viable. Most of these projects are loss leaders in that they will never pay for themselves, but they are incredibly important to the economy of a region. Taxpayers putting money into iconic features pays off in general tax revenue, on the Government’s balance sheet and in terms of the cultural well-being of the people. I am very proud that Galway has been designated the Euro- pean capital of culture for 2020. The Minister’s colleague sitting beside her will be able to tell her how many millions-----

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell: We were in County Mayo. We have moved to County Galway.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív: -----of euro that will be worth to us. Investing €1 million or €2 million to get it is a small price to pay.

Deputy Heather Humphreys: Most former Presidents have given their presidential records and other materials to different institutions. It is entirely up to the individuals concerned and not something in respect of which I wish to encroach.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív: To be clear, I am not talking about materials relating to the time before and after their being in presidential office. In the case of Mrs. Robinson, there does happen to be a lot of such material. The Minister will be aware of the proposal which was put forward that there be a presidential room in the museum where artefacts of the various Presi- dents would be stored and available for viewing. Many people who visit this country know something about our current and past Presidents. Some of the holders of the office have been quite iconic. Douglas Hyde, for example, was a chief author of the vision that led to the set- ting up of the Gaelic League and which ultimately led to the 1916 Rising, although he had no part in that event. Cearbhall Ó Dálaigh was one of our premier jurists. Mary Robinson, Mary McAleese and the current President have many achievements to their names. The proposal to have a dedicated museum space for storing all presidential materials is a good one and worthy of consideration. One former President left all the artefacts to the museum but not the papers.

Deputy Heather Humphreys: The question of having a particular museum space for the presidential records can be discussed with the management of the National Archives of Ireland in the context of the proposed redevelopment of its premises.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív: To clarify, the proposal relates to items given to former Presidents and so on.

Deputy Heather Humphreys: In addition to their papers.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív: The emphasis is not so much on the papers but rather on the items presented by visiting leaders and so on. Those objects should be stored in one place and be available for viewing.

Deputy Heather Humphreys: Some of those items probably are already in the National Archives.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív: Yes, but the proposal is that there be a dedicated room for their storage.

Deputy Heather Humphreys: Regarding the proposed Mary Robinson centre, a recommendation was sent to me and I have no problem making that recommendation available. I will send it to the committee.

24 Joint Committee on Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív: Was it a positive recommendation?

Deputy Heather Humphreys: Yes, it was a recommendation to sign off on the proposal to establish a presidential library in the property where the former President was raised. It was a good proposal and a positive investment for Ballina. I am not sure exactly what happened to prevent it. Everybody seemed to agree that it was a good proposal and that the location was right. In February 2016 my Department, having assessed the proposal, offered a capital grant in principle to Mayo County Council for up to €2 million towards the cost of construction of the centre, subject to the standard conditions that apply to all such grants. The board of the Victoria House Foundation issued a statement on 28 November indicating its intention to review the op- tion of developing the proposed centre in Ballina following the decision by the former President to donate her archive to NUI Galway. That review, the board indicated, would be completed in the first quarter of 2017. My Department is liaising with Mayo County Council on the matter and I will consider any proposals that emerge from the review.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív: Does that mean Mayo County Council may lose the project to Galway?

Deputy Heather Humphreys: The matter is under review and I do not know what will be the outcome.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív: It will be a pity if that happens. Although I represent Galway city, it would be better to have the library located in Mayo.

My final question concerns budgetary overruns. As I recall, it was standard procedure for projects to have plans in place to meet unforeseen expenses and so on. That certainly was the case in respect of community Gaeltacht grants, etc.

Deputy Heather Humphreys: It is standard practice. In the case of the Picture Palace project, I very much agree it needs to be finished. It is the right thing to do, as I said at another committee meeting, and a lot of money has gone into it. The promoters had good intentions and did their best but unexpected issues arose, including difficulties with the site. It is expected that the legal issues will be resolved shortly and work will commence in the new year.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell: Regarding the proposed Mary Robinson centre in Bal- lina, I am from that area and people are very proud of the former President and all she has achieved. Perhaps Mayo County Council did not carry out enough analysis in respect of the project and things were not fully thought through. In the case of all concerned, their heart was in the right place and they did the right thing for the right reasons. I am sorry that matters are at an impasse but there is no indication of misappropriation of funds or anything sinister or clandestine like that, regardless of what might have come out on “Prime Time”. That was not necessarily the whole truth. What options are open to Mayo County Council at this stage? Un- like the Department, which only gave a promise of funding, the council is significantly out of pocket. Can the council reapply for funding under some other process? Perhaps the matter is outside the Minister’s remit.

Deputy Heather Humphreys: As I said, a review is under way. I gave a commitment to provide assistance of €2 million towards construction of the centre. That money is sitting there pending the outcome of the review. It is up to the council to come forward; I do not have any input whatsoever into that.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: There are questions to be answered in respect of the 25 Mary Robinson Centre: Minister forA rts, Heritage, Regional, Ruraland GaeltachtA ffairs. oversight of the Picture Palace development. I agree that the project was well-intentioned but there are concerns as to how that funding allocation happened, why it ran over in the way it did and so on. Moreover, those concerns will persist because several of the same players are involved in the preparations for Galway’s role as a European Capital of Culture in 2020. It is a great initiative for Galway but we need to be very careful about how moneys are expended. I understand there are issues with Galway City Museum, for example, even though a great deal of money was spent on it. Will the Minister comment on that? The €1.8 million plus that was spent on Galway’s bid to be a European Capital of Culture for 2020 seems a colossal amount of money. Research I have done shows the average spent by other cities in Europe, including the successful ones, was €300,000. We need much greater transparency around that. It is a huge project and will be a very positive one if it is run properly. We must ensure robust mechanisms of oversight, management and corporate governance are in place which will enable Galway to get the best possible return, not just culturally but economically. It is important that the moneys spent have a positive cultural impact rather than just providing an economic gain for Galway and the region. We might discuss this issue at a future date. Several capital projects are being discussed around the 2020 bid and it is important to know where the moneys will come from, what discussions have been had with the Department and what commitments are given as we proceed. We must prevent overruns on those projects.

Deputy Heather Humphreys: I have no responsibility for Galway City Museum. My Department has not expended any funding on Galway’s bid to be a European Capital of Culture in 2020. I have been in Galway. I do not have to tell the committee how good the Galway Arts Festival is and how successful. I remember speaking at an event at it. The two weeks in Galway when the arts festival takes place are worth somewhere in the region of €23 million to the local economy, which is absolutely wonderful in terms of what it does for Galway and the wider area. There is a commitment that Government funding will be made available for the European Capital of Culture 2020, but that will be subject to assessment and the requests that are received. It will go through the necessary checks. I am due back before the committee to discuss the Revised Estimates and I will go through the Picture Palace in more detail at that stage, if the committee wishes. I have discussed it with the committee before but I am happy to go through it again.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: We are not arguing that it has a huge economic impact. A lot of money comes into Galway and there are many bed nights, etc., during the arts festival. However, it is the cultural legacy that I am worried about. How much does it benefit local art- ists and local communities and how much does it get disadvantaged communities involved in the whole project? That is hugely important if it is going to be very successful.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell: Galway has just been named European Capital of Cul- ture 2020 ahead of many other cities. It is the cultural capital of the country in one way. I know what the Senator is saying, but Galway is the seat and platform for great culture, innovation and arts.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Absolutely. If that is the case, why are we then hiring outside expertise to run the projects, bringing in acts from outside Galway?

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell: That is a different point.

Deputy Heather Humphreys: That is a matter for the local-----

Chairman: Through the Chair, gach duine.

26 Joint Committee on Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: That is exactly the point.

Chairman: An bhfuil an tAire ag iarraidh teacht ar ais? Does the Minister wish to respond to that point or shall we proceed to the next matter?

Deputy Heather Humphreys: We can proceed.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Perhaps we could discuss that issue in the future.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell: Galway is so lucky-----

Chairman: Galway will be embarrassed at the amount of attention we have given it over the last while.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell: Especially since we started off by talking about Mayo.

Chairman: That is for sure. In all seriousness, I hear Senator Ó Clochartaigh and we might put that on the agenda for the new year.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Go raibh maith agat.

Buiséad 2016 don Ghaeilge: An tAire Stáit ag an Roinn Ealaíon, Oidhreachta, Gnóthaí Réigiúnacha, Tuaithe agus Gaeltachta

Chairman: An chéad ábhar eile ná an buiséad do 2016 don Ghaeilge agus an maoiniú do Fhoras na Gaeilge agus Údarás na Gaeltachta. An bhfuil éinne ag iarraidh na ceisteanna a thosnú?

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív: Chuala mé go bhfuil milliún breise curtha ar fáil do Fhoras na Gaeilge. Fáiltím roimhe sin. An é atá i gceist ná €250,000 don bhliain seo agus €750,000 don bhliain seo chugainn? An íocfar iomlán an airgid sin roimh dheireadh na bliana seo nó an é atá ag tarlú ná go bhfuil airgead breise faighte don bhliain seo chugainn? Cén meicníocht atá i gceist anseo ó thaobh an airgid de? Dála an scéil, má tá an t-airgead ar fad faighte i mbliana ag an Aire Stáit, molaim é. Má tá sé tar éis é a iomrascáil sa gcaoi is go raibh sé in ann airgead nach raibh caite i mbliana a fháil agus cead aige é a chaitheamh an bhliain seo chugainn, molaim é. Is bealach iontach é le cur le buiséad na Roinne agus tá sé an-chliste más é sin a rinne an tAire Stáit.

Tá ceist éigin faoi athlonnú oifig Fhoras na Gaeilge. Creidim go gcaithfidh siad imeacht as 7 Cearnóg Mhuirfean. Cé mhéad airgid atá i gceist as an milliún do sin? Chomh maith le sin, creidim go bhfuil airgead i gceist le haghaidh an oifig Ultaise i nGaoth Dobhair, nó pé áit a bhfuil sé. Cibé áit, cé mhéad airgead caipitil atá i gceist do thograí caipitil?

Is dóigh gurb í an cheist is spéisiúla ar fad ná an bhfuil comh-mhaoiniú faighte ag an Aire Stáit ón bhFeidhmeannas ó Thuaidh? Mar shampla, do thograí Ultaise, sílim gurb é euro in aghaidh €3 atá i gceist. Cuireann an Rialtas €3 isteach agus cuireann an Feidhmeannas euro amháin isteach. An mbeidh sibh ag fáil comh-mhaoiniú ó bhFeidhmeannas ó Thuaidh, go mórmhór ó tharla go bhfuil Aire airgeadais ó Thuaidh atá thar a bheith báúil don Ghaeilge? Tá aithne mhaith agam air ó i bhfad i bhfad siar. Tá mé tar éis comhoibriú leis thar na blianta. An bhfuil comh-mhaoiniú ar fáil don airgead seo ó na húdaráis ó Thuaidh? B’fhéidir go bhfrea- gróidh an tAire Stáit na ceisteanna sin dom.

27 Buiséad2016 don G haeilgeA: nt AireS táitag an R oinnE alaíonO, idhreachtaG, nóthaíR éigiúnachaT, uaitheagus G aeltachta Deputy Seán Kyne: Níl aon chinneadh déanta fós ar an gcomh-mhaoiniú. Caithfidh muid é sin a phlé ag an gComhairle Aireachta Thuaidh-Theas. Is é sin an freagra ar an gceist sin.

Is dea-scéal é. Tá sé fógraithe inniu agam go bhfuil maoiniú breise de os cionn €1 milliún san iomlán ceadaithe agam do na forais teanga. Tá €260,000 le cur ar fáil do thionscadail ar leith sa bhliain reatha. Chomh maith le sin, tá méadú €750,000 curtha san áireamh sa Mheast- úchán Athbhreithnithe do 2017. Caithfidh mé a rá go bhfuil áthas orm go rabhamar in ann an maoiniú breise substaintiúil seo a chur ar fáil do na forais teanga. Cabhróidh sé seo le Foras na Gaeilge agus leis an Boord o Ulstèr-Scotch chun na cúramaí atá acu ó thaobh chúrsaí teanga agus cultúir a chur chun cinn. Ba mhaith liom buíochas a ghabháil leis an Aire, Teachta Hum- phreys, as ucht an cúnamh a thug sí dom agus leis an Aire, Teachta Paschal Donohoe, freisin. Chas mé fhéin agus Teachta Humphreys le príomhfheidhmeannach agus cuid de fhoireann an fhorais le déanaí chun cúrsaí buiséid a phlé. Tá mé sásta anois go bhfuil breis airgid faighte agam do na Meastúcháin Athbhreithnithe. Tá €750,000 curtha san áireamh don mheastúchán do 2017. Beidh an €260,000 íoctha i mbliana.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív: Cé mhéad den airgead atá le dul ar thograí caipitil? Ar an gcéad dul síos, an bhfuil aon bhriseadh síos idir Foras na Gaeilge agus an Bord Ultaise agus, ar an dara dul síos, cé mhéad den airgead a bheidh caite ar fhoirgint agus cé mhéad a bheidh caite ar ghníomhaíochtaí pobail? Is é sin le rá, cé mhéad a bheidh ar fáil don earnáil deonach pobail? An bhfuil aon bhriseadh síos ag an Aire Stáit?

Deputy Seán Kyne: Don bhliain seo, tá €260,000 breise ann, mar a dúirt mé. Beidh beagnach €21,000 ag dul go dtí an Ulster-Scots Agency.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív: Fágann sé sin €240,000, nó €239,000.

Deputy Seán Kyne: Maidir leis an airgead do 2017, is cinneadh é sin don bhord. Caithfidh siad pleananna a ullmhú agus teacht os comhair an Comhairle Aireachta Thuaidh-Theas chun é sin a phlé.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív: An bhfuil a fhios ag an Aire Stáit cé mhéad atá i gceist le haghaidh tograí caipitil? Nach bhfuil roinnt tograí caipitil i gceist?

Deputy Seán Kyne: Tá siad ag lorg airgid. Tá dhá fhoirgneamh ar léas ag Foras na Gaeilge agus tá siad ag iarraidh iad féin agus An Gúm a chur isteach i bhfoirgneamh amháin le chéile. Níl aon chinneadh déanta ar an airgead seo. Caithfidh siad pleananna a ullmhú agus teacht os comhair an Comhairle Aireachta Thuaidh-Theas. Sílim go mbeidh siad sásta, idir an príom- hfheidhmeannach agus an cathaoirleach nua, teacht os a chomhair chun rudaí mar sin a phlé.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív: Ar thug siad buille faoi thuairim fiú cé mhéad a bheadh i gceist? Cé mhéad airgid a bheidh ann le caitheamh ar thograí i measc an phobail, seachas ar fhoirgint?

Deputy Seán Kyne: Níl mé in ann an figiúr sin a chur amach. Níl a fhios agam an bhfuil figiúr ann. Níl aon rud cinnte faoi go fóill.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív: An bhfuilimid an caint ar €50,000, €200,000 nó €600,000? An bhfuil siad ag ceannacht foirgnimh?

Deputy Seán Kyne: Níl.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív: Léas agus fit-out, ab ea?

28 Joint Committee on Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs Deputy Seán Kyne: Sin é.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív: An leis an OPW 7 Cearnóg Mhuirfean, nó an bhfuil sé ar léas díreach ag Foras na Gaeilge ón earnáil príobháideach?

Deputy Seán Kyne: Léas príobháideach, sílim. Sílim go bhfuil ceann amháin acu ag an OPW.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív: An mbeidh an OPW freagrach as na foirgint nó an mbeidh Foras na Gaeilge ag dul amach ar an margadh oscailte?

Deputy Seán Kyne: Beidh siad ag dul amach ar an margadh oscailte.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív: Beidh sé sin daor.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Fáiltímid roimh an airgead breise a cheadaíodh ar maidin do Fhoras na Gaeilge. An cheist atá ann ná an íocaíocht aon uaire atá i gceist nó an mbeidh sé san áireamh gach bliain mar chuid den bhuiséad buan a bheidh ar fáil ag an Roinn? An mbeidh ar an Aire Stáit dul lena chaipín ag cuartú pinginí ag deireadh gach bliana? Tá sé sa bhreis ar an airgead breise a cheadaíodh do Údarás na Gaeltachta níos túisce i mbliana. An gcuirfear an t-ardú breise atá faighte san airgead do Údarás na Gaeltachta agus an €1 milliún breise seo san áireamh mar chuid den bhunfhigiúr a bheidh mar an buiséad gach bliain as seo amach? Nó an mbeidh an tAire Stáit ar ais san áit a raibh sé lúide €2 mhilliún ag tús na bliana nuair a bheidh buiséad na bliana seo chugainn á fhogairt?

Deputy Seán Kyne: Tá an t-airgead faighte againn anois agus beimid ag iarraidh é a cho- imeád mar an bunlíne agus dul ar aghaidh as sin. Ach, beidh orainn é sin a phlé ag cruinnithe leis an Aire Caiteachais Phoiblí agus Athchóirithe as seo amach. Mar is eol don Seanadóir, bhí €1 milliún breise i maoiniú caipitil do Údarás na Gaeltachta faighte anuraidh sna Meastúcháin Athbhreithnithe 2016. Bhíomar in ann é sin a choimeád don bhliain seo chugainn. Bhí allúntas breise caipitil de €2.4 milliún curtha ar fáil do Údarás na Gaeltachta i 2016. Bhíomar in ann é a choimeád an uair sin do Údarás na Gaeltachta. Is é sin an plean a bheidh againn arís. Tá a fhios agam go dteastaíonn níos mó airgid. Is é seo an chéad uair, sílim, ó 2008 go bhfuil aon ardú ar an mbuiséad do na forais teanga. Is dea-scéal é sin.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Ar an bpointe a rinne an Teachta Ó Cuív, nach gcaithfidh comhaontú a bheith ann leis an gComhairle Aireachta Thuaidh-Theas go bhfuil an comh-mha- oiniú dearbhaithe sular féidir an €1 milliún sin a íoc amach le Foras na Gaeilge? Tá dhá thrian agus trian le n-íoc, nach bhfuil? Ciallaíonn sé sin go gcaithfidh an Feidhmeannas an trian a íoc.

Deputy Seán Kyne: Beidh muid in ann é a íoc ar rudaí taobh amuigh den chlár, ach b’fhearr linn an comh-mhaoiniú. Bheadh sé iontach do na forais iad féin más féidir an t-airgead breise sin a fháil. Beidh ról ag an Seanadóir agus ag an gCathaoirleach in iarracht a dhéanamh iarraidh ar an Aire airgeadais ó Thuaidh, Máirtín Ó Muilleoir.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Cinnte.

Deputy Seán Kyne: Cuirim fáilte roimh aon thacaíocht ar an gceist sin. Airgead substain- tiúil atá anseo-----

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: I gcead duit, baineann sé leis an Aire cúltúir, ealaíon agus fóillíochta. Tá sé cineál íorónach. Nuair a bhí Aire Shinn Féin sa ról sin ag iarraidh airgead breise a thabhairt do Fhoras na Gaeilge san am a chaitheadh, níorbh féidir é a dhéanamh mar 29 Buiséad2016 don G haeilgeA: nt AireS táitag an R oinnE alaíonO, idhreachtaG, nóthaíR éigiúnachaT, uaitheagus G aeltachta nach raibh an Rialtas anseo in ann comh-mhaoiniú a dhéanamh sa gcás sin. Táimid iompaithe timpeall anois le Aire ón DUP sa ról sin. Muna gceadaíonn an tAire ón DUP an t-airgead breise, an bhfuil an tAire Stáit ag rá liom gur féidir fós an €1 milliún a chaitheamh, ach ar-----

Deputy Seán Kyne: Beidh an t-airgead seo ar fáil ag na forais teanga, fiú gan aon chomh- mhaoiniú. Ach, cuirim fáilte le breis airgid ón taobh sin freisin.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: An bhfuil comhráití ar bun ag an Aire Stáit leis an Aire cultúir, ealaíon agus fóillíochta nó leis an Aire airgeadais ó Thuaidh?

Deputy Seán Kyne: Tá siad ar an eolas faoin airgead seo. Mar a dúirt mé, beidh orainn é seo a phlé ag an gcruinniú Chomhairle Aireachta Thuaidh-Theas i mí Eanáir, sílim.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Mar a deir an tAire Stáit féin, nuair a chuirtear é sa bpic- tiúir iomlán, an gearradh siar damanta a rinneadh ar bhuiséad chaipitil Údarás na Gaeltachta ó €26 milliún i 2008 síos go dtí €5.5 milliún, agus anois le milliún breise leis. Táimid fós in áit na leathphingine i gcomparáid le na ciorruithe eile. Tháinig ciorradh de 9% ar an mbuiséad Gaeilge agus Gaeltachta trí chéile. Tá seans ann go bhfreagróidh an tAire Stáit go raibh airgead caite ar thograí caipitil ó thaobh chéibh Inis Mór de. Ach, nuair a chaitear airgead ar thograí caipitil sa Roinn Oideachas agus Scileanna nó in aon Roinn eile, ní gá go mbainfidh an t- uasmhéid sin amach as an mbuiséad don chéad bhliain eile. Cén fáth nár fhágadh an bunfhigiúr leis an Roinn le go mbeadh an 9% breise sin de mhaoiniú fós ag an Aire Stáit le haghaidh tograí caipitil eile, ar nós rudaí atá luaite sa Straitéis 20 Bliain don Ghaeilge cosúil le na hionaid Gaeilge do bhailte. Tá neart tograí caipitil eile.

Deputy Seán Kyne: Caithfidh mé a rá go ndearna an Taoiseach an-obair chun an t-airgead a fháil don chéibh ar Inis Oírr. Tháinig sé ón Roinn Cumarsáide, Gníomhaithe ar son na hAeráide agus Comhshaoil go dtí Roinn na Gaeltachta. Is rud difriúil é. Fuaireamar é ón Roinn Cu- marsáide, Gníomhaithe ar son na hAeráide agus Chomhshaoil. Is é sin an fáth go raibh laghdú ar an mbuiséad ina iomlán toisc an once-off a bhfuaireamar ón Roinn Cumarsáide, Gníom- haithe ar son na hAeráide agus Comhshaoil don togra caipitil ar Inis Oírr. Tá €2 mhilliún ann don togra sin i mbliana chun leanúint leis an obair.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Nach bhfuil ceist ansin faoin Aire sinsearach, i ndáiríre, nach bhfuil cás sách láidir á chur aici? Tá rannóg na Gaeilge ar an gcodán is lú den Roinn Ealaíon, Oidhreachta, Gnóthaí Réigiúnacha, Tuaithe agus Gaeltachta, ina bhfuil píosaí eile go leor ann. Is é seo an Roinn is lú a bhfuil airgead aige as na Ranna éagsúla ar fad. Nach bhfuil gá cás i bhfad níos láidre a bheith á dhéanamh ag an Aire sinsearach chun breis airgid a fháil don Ghaeilge agus don Ghaeltacht ag leibhéal an Rialtais? Dá bhrí sin, nach ndéanann sé sin cás níos láidre go mbeadh Aire sinsearach le Gaeilge ag bord an Rialtais ag troid an coirnéil dúinn?

Deputy Seán Kyne: Bhí mé ag suí in aice leis an Aire sinsearach nuair a bhfuaireamar an breis airgid. Don Roinn in iomlán, thug an tAire Caiteachais Phoiblí agus Athchóirithe an t-airgead a bhí leagtha síos in 2016 don cheiliúradh do 2016. Thug sé amach é agus ansin fuaireamar €40 milliún breise don Roinn. Sílim go ndearna an tAire sinsearach, an Teachta Humphreys, an-jab chun an t-airgead sin a fháil don Roinn.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: B’fhéidir nach n-aontaíonn muid ar an bpointe sin. Tá ceist amháin agam maidir le deacrachtaí sna ceantracha Gaeltachta. Bhí scéim ann darbh ainm scéim na mbóithre áise a bhíodh ag tacú le bóithre phortaigh, bóithre chladaigh agus mar sin de. Bhí sé an-tábhachtach. Táimid ag caint faoi fhorbairt na ceantracha Gaeltachta ó thaobh

30 Joint Committee on Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs áiseanna turasóireachta agus mar sin de. Ní raibh an t-airgead a bhí i gceist uafásach mór. Ge- arradh é insan am nach raibh airgead chomh fairsing. An mbeadh smaoineamh ag an Aire Stáit a leithéid sin a thabhairt ar ais mar chuid dá chlár oibre? Is cinnte go dtacódh sé le forbairt na gceantracha. Is airgead beag é sa gcomhthéacs náisiúnta ach airgead fíor-riachtanach sna ceantracha Gaeltachta.

Deputy Seán Kyne: Tá mé sásta breathnú ar chuile rud. Tá an stiúrthóir nua sa Roinn anseo agus tá mé sásta brú a chur air faoi freisin. Tá a fhios agam go ndearnadh an-jab le na bóithre áise anuraidh. Tá a lán bóithre nach bhfuil os comhair Chomhairle Contae na Gaillimhe agus i gceantracha eile. Arís, níl mé chun gealltanas a thabhairt faoi. Chaitheamar thart ar €600,000 ar bhóithre na n-oileán trasna na tíre agus déanadh an-obair. Tá níos mó le déanamh agus táimid sásta breathnú ar chuile rud.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Cé mhéad a chaitheadh i mbliana ar na bóithre áise?

Deputy Seán Kyne: Ní ar na bóithre áise, ach ar bhóithre na n-oileán. Suim de €600,000 a chaitheadh, sílim.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Dhá eagraíocht eile atá ag feidhmiú faoi scáth do Roinne i gcomhair le Údaras na Gaeltachta ná na comharchumainn Gaeltachta agus Comhar Naíonraí na Gaeltachta. Is eagraíochtaí iad sin atá ag déanamh obair fíor-thábhachtach. Tá na deontais atá á íoc leis na heagraíochtaí sin laghdaithe go mór le cúpla bliain anuas. Tá géarghá breis ta- caíochta a thabhairt dóibh. An mbeidh an tAire Stáit ag tabhairt treoire do Údarás na Gaeltachta breis airgid a thabhairt do na comharchumainn mar airgead reatha?

Maidir leis na naíonraí, tá géarchéim uafásach mór sna naíonraí Gaeltachta. Tuigim go mbaineann sé le Roinn na Leanaí agus Gnóthaí Óige chomh maith céanna. Tá cúpla rud i gceist agus tá siad á ardú i láthair na huaire. An chéad rud ná an ráta pá atá á íoc le na stiúrthóirí agus an dream atá ag obair sna naíonraí agus na naíolanna. Tá sé an-íseal agus táimid ag feiceáil go leor den dream sin ag imeacht le dul ag obair mar chúntóirí ranga agus teanga sna scoileanna. Tá fadhb ansin le daoine a earcú chun an obair a dhéanamh.

An dara rud ná go bhfuil sé tábhachtach teacht ar dhaoine le Gaeilge chomh maith leis an obair sin a dhéanamh. An tríú rud ná go bhfuil rialachán beartaithe ag an Aire Leanaí agus Gnóthaí Óige, an Teachta Zappone, atá le teacht i bhfeidhm ag tús na bliana. Sa gcás sin, caithfidh cáilíocht FETAC leibhéal a cúig a bheith ag daoine le dul ag obair sna naíonraí. Tá sé seo chun bualadh cuid mhaith de na naíolanna Gaeltachta mar nach bhfuil gach duine suas go dtí FETAC leibhéal a cúig fós. Tá an Roinn, trí Údarás na Gaeltachta, ag maoiniú Comhar na Naíonraí agus cuid mhaith de na hionaid seo. D’fhéadfadh géarchéim a bheith ann i mí Eanáir. An bhfuil an tAire Stáit i dteagmháil leis an Aire Leanaí agus Gnóthaí Óige faoi seo? An bhfuil sé ábalta aon rud a dhéanamh ina leith seo le síneadh ama a thabhairt ar a laghad le go gcoin- neofar na daoine ag obair agus na naíonraí agus na naíolanna oscailte agus, níos faide anonn, leis an gcaighdeán pá agus na conníollacha atá ag na hoibrithe a ardú?

Deputy Seán Kyne: Bhí mé i dteagmháil leis an Aire, an Teachta Zappone, faoi seo. Is ceist thábhachtach í. Chuireamar cás láidir os a comhair agus táimid ag fanacht ar fhreagra. Sí- lim gur chás speisialta é ó thaobh na Gaeilge de. Teastaíonn daoine cáilithe do na postanna seo, ach freisin, sa Ghaeltacht, teastaíonn daoine cáilithe atá líofa le Gaeilge. Tá sé sin mar cheann de na fadhbanna a chuireamar os comhair an Aire, an Teachta Zappone. Níor chuala mise faoi seo go dtí cúpla lá ó shin. Tá an spriocdáta ar 1 Eanáir. Ní raibh mórán ama agamsa, ach tá sé pléite agam leis an Aire, an Teachta Zappone.

31 Buiséad2016 don G haeilgeA: nt AireS táitag an R oinnE alaíonO, idhreachtaG, nóthaíR éigiúnachaT, uaitheagus G aeltachta Maidir le na comharchumainn, tá €250,000 breise faighte do 2017 do Údarás na Gaeltach- ta. Chas feidhmeannaigh an údaráis agus mé fhéin le hionadaithe ó na comharchumainn sna Forbacha. Chuir siad cás láidir os ár gcomhair faoi na deacrachtaí agus na dúshláin atá acu ó thaobh airgid de. Dúirt mé ag an am go ndéanfainn iarracht breis airgid a fháil don údarás agus go mbeadh cinneadh le déanamh ag an údarás cén chaoi a chaitheann sé an t-airgead. Is é mo thuairim phearsanta, agus tá sé seo ráite agam leis an bpríomhfheidhmeannach, go gcaithfear an cuid is mó den airgead sin a chur isteach i mbuiséid na gcomharchumainn chun cabhrú leo na dúshláin atá acu a shárú.

Maidir le na ceisteanna eile ó thaobh pá de, sílim gur cheist é sin do bhord an údaráis.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: An cloch is mó ar pháidrín an Aire Stáit ná an Straitéis 20 Bliain don Ghaeilge. Cé mhéad atá caite i mbliana ar an straitéis agus cé mhéad a bheidh á chaitheamh an bhliain seo chugainn? Cá sheasann na limistéir pleanála teanga? De na pleananna atá ullmhaithe, cé mhéad atá réitithe agus cé mhéad nach bhfuil tosaithe go fóill?

Cén fáth nár tháinig an tAire Stáit nó an tAire sinsearach os comhair Bhuan-choiste na Gaeilge, na Gaeltachta agus na nOileán leis na ceisteanna seo a phlé agus an straitéis a chíoradh go mion? Tuigim go raibh iarratas faighte acu.

Maidir leis an gcoiste Rialtais atá ag plé le cur chun cinn na straitéise, tá sé cloiste agam nár tháinig siad le chéile ach uair amháin i mbliana faoi scáth an Taoisigh. Cén chaoi gur féidir an straitéis a chur i bhfeidhm go héifeachtach muna bhfuil an coiste sin ag teacht le chéile go rialta? Cén fáth nach bhfuil sé ag teacht le chéile go rialta?

Deputy Seán Kyne: Sílim go mbeimid réidh le hocht bplean a cheadú do 2017. Sílim go bhfuil-----

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Sin pleananna a bheidh críochnaithe, an ea?

Deputy Seán Kyne: Is ea, pleananna a bheidh críochnaithe. Tá 22 nó 23 próiséis ann. Tá an chuid is mó dóibh ag dul ar aghaidh. Tá cuid acu ag iarraidh breis ama agus tá sé sin ceadaithe agam. Maidir leis an straitéis, tá €1 milliún caite i mbliana. Beidh €1.25 milliún ar fáil i 2017.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Céard ar a bhfuil sé sin caite? An bhfuil sé caite ar na pleananna?

Deputy Seán Kyne: Tá an chuid is mó caite ar na pleananna teanga, chomh maith le tograí digiteach freisin.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Ocht bplean a bheidh ullmhaithe. An bhfuil gach ceantar tosaithe ar na pleananna anois, nó an bhfuil ceantracha nach bhfuil tosaithe?

Deputy Seán Kyne: Sílim go bhfuil trí cinn nach bhfuil tosaithe go fóill.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Cén fáth nach bhfuil siad sin tosaithe?

Deputy Seán Kyne: Táimid ag dul trí phróiseas. Caithfimid dul amach agus é a fhógairt agus rudaí mar sin. Uaireanta, ní bheidh eagraíocht amháin in ann freastal ar áiteanna scaipthe.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Agus cad é an scéal maidir leis an mbuan-choiste Gaeilge agus an coiste Rialtais?

32 Joint Committee on Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs Deputy Seán Kyne: Tháinig muid le chéile uair amháin. Ag an am sin-----

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: I mí Eanáir, ab ea?

Deputy Seán Kyne: -----cheap mé go mbeadh cruinniú eile againn um Nollaig. Tá a fhios ag an Seanadóir go bhfuil an Taoiseach an-ghnóthach. Braitheann sé ar dhialann an Taoisigh. Bhí cruinniú maith againn ag an am sin chun an plean oideachais Gaeltachta a phlé. Tá a fhios agam gur phléigh an coiste seo nó an coiste Gaeilge eile an chéad phlean oideachais Gaeltachta riamh le déanaí. Bhí cruinniú maith againn ar an lá sin agus tá a lán rudaí le plé ag an gcéad chruinniú eile, a bheidh i mí Eanáir, tá mé dóchasach.

Maidir le Buan-choiste na Gaeilge, na Gaeltachta agus na nOileán, fuaireamar cuireadh amháin go dtí an coiste sin. Fuair mo rúnaí príobháideach an cuireadh sin déanach Dé hAoine le teacht os comhair an choiste Dé Máirt. Bhí an tAire, an Teachta Humphreys, ag cruinniú de bhord an Rialtais agus bhí mo dhialann lán ag an am sin. Is é sin an t-aon chuireadh a bhfuair mé. Is é seo an tríú uair dom os comhair an choiste seo agus níl fadhb agamsa dul os comhair an choiste Gaeilge agus Gaeltachta. Mar a dúirt mé, ní bhfuair mé ach cuireadh amháin ar an Aoine le teacht os comhair an choiste Dé Máirt. Ní raibh a ndóthain ama agam.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Tá mé cinnte go mbeidh an tAire Stáit ag fáil cuireadh eile, muna bhfuil sé faighte cheana féin. Munar tháinig an comhchoiste Rialtais, mar átáimid ag cloisteáil, le chéile ó mí Eanáir, ní léiríonn sé tiomantas an Rialtais don Straitéis 20 Bliain don Ghaeilge. Tá fadhbanna ann. Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil cuireadh tugtha ag an gcomhchoiste eile sin don Aire, an Teachta Paschal Donohoe, agus Airí eile, le hearcaíocht sa státseirbhís ach go háirid a phlé. Ní léir go bhfuil mórán suime i ndáiríre ag na hAirí eile sa straitéis, i gcur i bhfeidhm na straitéise nó sna ceisteanna tromchúiseacha a bhaineann leis a phlé.

Deputy Seán Kyne: Tá na rudaí seo pléite agam leis an stiúrthóir nua. Chas mé leis Dé Máirt san oifig. Phléigh muid an próiseas earcaíochta. Caithfimid é sin a phlé. Tá sé sin ráite agam leis an Taoiseach freisin go príobháideach taobh amuigh den choiste sin agus sa choiste féin, caithfidh mé a rá. Phléigh muid na fadhbanna agus deacrachtaí atá ann. Tá a fhios aige go gcaithfimid rud éigin a dhéanamh faoi mar nach bhfuil an próiseas mar atá ag obair. Níl a ndóthain daoine le Gaeilge ag teacht tríd an bpróiseas earcaíochta. Tá sé sin déanta. Casaim leis an Taoiseach agus le na hAirí eile taobh amuigh de choistí foirmiúla cosúil le sin. Mar shampla, an lá díreach i ndiaidh an bhuiséid, phléigh mé na fadhbanna le Foras na Gaeilge leis an Aire, Teachta Paschal Donohoe, agus mhínigh mé gur theastaigh breis airgid san athbhreithniú. Tá sé sin faighte againn anois. Bíonn cruinnithe againn i gcónaí. Bhí an tAire, Teachta Bruton, agus an Taoiseach sásta athrú a dhéanamh ar an bpolasaí oideachais do scoileanna oileáin. Tháinig an t-athrú sin mar gheall ar an obair atá chuile dhuine ag déanamh agus toisc an brú atá coistí mar seo, muintir na n-oileán agus muintir na Gaeltachta ag cur orainn.

Chairman: Tá cúpla ceist agamsa. Tá go leor pléite ag an Seanadóir Ó Clochartaigh a bhfuil suim agam ann. Leis an bhfírinne a rá, tá mearbhall ar dhaoine faoin bpróiseas airgeadais atá ag an Rialtas seo agus conas a bhaineann sé leis an nGaeilge. I ngach Roinn eile, bíonn sé i bhfad níos éasca a oibriú amach caidé an méid airgid atá ag teacht isteach agus á bhaint amach. Mothaíonn daoine go bhfuil an Rialtas ag iarraidh cleas trí chárta a imirt leis an airgead. Is cosúil go bhfuil cleasaíocht i gceist nuair a deirtear go bhfuil airgead nua anseo ach is airgead sealadach atá i gceist toisc go raibh airgead sa bhuiséad caipitil an bhliain seo caite agus bai- neadh amach as sin é mar nach airgead fadtéarmach nó nach maoiniú leanúnach atá i gceist. Tá an caint chasta sin ann.

33 Buiséad2016 don G haeilgeA: nt AireS táitag an R oinnE alaíonO, idhreachtaG, nóthaíR éigiúnachaT, uaitheagus G aeltachta Mar a dúirt an Seanadóir, de ghnáth, bíonn buiséad ann. Éiríonn nó íslíonn an buiséad ó bhliain go bliain. Ní hé seo atá i gceist. Fáiltím an t-airgead atá tar éis teacht isteach inniu go huile is go hiomlán, ach ní raibh an tAire Stáit in ann a rá linn go mbeidh úrlár againn don bhliain seo chugainn leis an airgead sin tógtha san áireamh. Mar sin, airgead sealadach atá i gceist arís. Cuireann sé díomá ormsa nuair a bhreathnaíonn mé ar an bpictiúir mór. Sa phictiúir mór, tá ísliú de 50% tar éis teacht ar an mbuiséad ag Údarás na Gaeltachta agus Foras na Gaeilge ó 2008. Tá a fhios ag cách go raibh titim i mbeagnach gach cearn den Rialtas ag an am sin. Ach, le trí bliana anuas, tá na buiséid eile tar éis dreapadh suas arís. Níl sé sin ag tarlú go fóill do Údarás na Gaeltachta nó do Fhoras na Gaeilge.

Caithfimid a bheith ionraic agus réalaíoch faoin méid airgid atá ag teacht isteach san earnáil seo. Tá sé fós thíos agus thíos i bhfad níos mó ná na Ranna eile. Tá impleachtaí ann dá bharr. Tá ar Údarás na Gaeltachta agus Foras na Gaeilge leanúint ar aghaidh ag gearradh siar ar na projects agus tograí atá acu ó bhliain go bliain. Lagaíonn sé sin an Ghaeilge timpeall na tíre. Ba cheart go mbeimid ag caint faoi rudaí cosúil leis an gCultúrlann atá i mBéal Feirste. Ba cheart go mbeadh gach baile réigiúnach, cosúil leis an Uaimh, Dún Dealgan agus Port Laoise, ag súil le tograí cosúil le sin.

Agus mé ag breathnú ar an earnáil seo, na ceithre rud is tábhachtaí nó na ceithre pillars atá ann dar liom ná an Ghaeltacht í féin, deiseanna a bheith ag daoine Gaeilge a húsáid, an Ghaeilge a chur ó ghlúin go glúin agus an córas oideachas. Má táimid in ann na ceithre rudaí sin a th- reisiú, d’fhéadfaimis an Ghaeilge a threisiú thar timpeall na tíre, ach níl an béim chuí orthu fós. An mbeidh ar Fhoras na Gaeilge agus ar Údarás na Gaeltachta gearradh siar a dhéanamh ar tograí, projects agus araile an bhliain seo chugainn? An mbeidh go leor airgid ag Údarás na Gaeltachta? An eolas atá agamsa ón údarás ná go bhfuil 7,000 post ag brath ar obair an údaráis. An mbeidh an t-údarás in ann cur leis sin? Cad iad an sprioc atá ag an Roinn? An bhfuil an Roinn ag iarraidh go mbeidh Údarás na Gaeltachta in ann cur leis an bhfigiúir sin?

An bhfuil an Roinn ag smaoineamh ar Brexit ar chor ar bith agus an tionchar a bheidh aige ar an gcomhmhaoiniú Thuaidh-Theas? An bhfuil aon saghas díospóireacht nó plé ar siúl le comhghleacaithe na nAirí i dTuaisceart na hÉireann?

Deputy Seán Kyne: Rinne mé dearmad a rá go bhfuil an plean oideachais don Ghaeltacht lárnach sa straitéis 20 bliain agus céim mhór é sin ó thaobh na straitéise. Tá a fhios agam go dteastaíonn airgead ag an Roinn Oideachais agus Scileanna chun é a chur i bhfeidhm. Teast- aíonn €7 milliún nó €8 milliún don dhá bhliain as seo amach ag an Roinn Oideachais agus Scileanna agus tá €1 milliún curtha ar fáil do 2017 chun tús a chur leis.

Ó thaobh acmhainní, níl aon Roinn, eagraíocht Stáit nó grúpa a chas mé leo riamh nach raibh ag iarraidh níos mó airgid. Tá chuile dhuine in ann cás maith a dhéanamh agus aontaím an chuid is mó den ann le cásanna ó thaobh bhreis airgid agus acmhainní d’eagraíochtaí Gaeilge, spóirt agus chuile eile dream a bhíonn á iarraidh.

Chairman: Níl aon earnáil thíos leis agus atá an earnáil seo.

Deputy Seán Kyne: Níl sé sin féaráilte. Bhí laghdú ag chuile Roinn mar gheall ar an drochstádas eacnamaíocha sa tír. An fáth go bhfuilimid in ann ardú a thabhairt do chuile Roinn ná go bhfuil feabhas déanta ag an Rialtas agus an Rialtas roimhe seo chun an tír a chur ar ais le chéile. Bhí orainn cinntí deacra a dhéanamh ach, mar gheall air sin, tá breis airgid againn agus beidh breis airgid againn do 2018 freisin. Beimid ag cur cáis láidir os comhair an Aire Caite- achais Phoiblí agus Athchóirithe chun ardú a dhéanamh ar na figiúirí don bhliain seo. Bíonn

34 Joint Committee on Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs chuile Aire ag iarraidh breis airgid agus bíonn roghanna le déanamh. Táimid i gcomórtas leis an Roinn Sláinte agus an Roinn Oideachais agus Scileanna. Tá ardú substaintiúil, mar shampla, ar an daonra sa tír ó thaobh daoine óga agus seandaoine. Bíonn costaisí ag chuile Roinn. Déanaimid cás láidir chun breis airgid a fháil agus tá sé le fáil. Le linn an téarma seo, chas mé le hÚdarás na Gaeltachta, Foras na Gaeilge agus Conradh na Gaeilge agus tá airgead faighte againn don Foras Teanga agus don údarás ó thaobh an buiséid caipitil agus an buiséid reatha. Tá breis airgid faighte freisin ó thaobh na hoibre tábhachtaigh atá na comharchumainn trasna na tíre ag déanamh. Tá breis airgid faighte don straitéis 20 bliain. Tá dul chun cinn mór déanta. B’fhearr liom go mbeadh níos mó déanta. Bheinn an-sásta le níos mó airgid. Bheadh chuile Aire sásta le níos mó airgid. Bheadh an tAire, an Teachta Humphreys, sásta le níos mó airgead agus bímid ag troid i gcónaí chun é a fháil.

Pléadh Brexit leis an rúnaí cúnta. Tá dualgas aige ó thaobh an ábhair seo. Freisin, tá coiste idirrannach faoi stiúir an Taoisigh ann maidir le Brexit.

Chairman: Ní hionann an gearradh siar airgid don Roinn seo agus an gearradh siar do Ran- na eile. An féidir leis an Aire Stáit Roinn eile a ainmniú atá an gearradh siar níos measa ann?

Deputy Seán Kyne: Bhí gearradh siar i ngach Roinn.

Chairman: An féidir leis an Aire Stáit ceann a ainmniú a raibh an gearradh siar níos measa ann?

Deputy Seán Kyne: Ó thaobh na figiúirí in 2017?

Chairman: Ó 2008 go dtí an lá inniu, an féidir leis an Aire Stáit Roinn a ainmniú a raibh an gearradh siar níos measa ann?

Deputy Seán Kyne: Níl na figiúirí sin agam. Tá a fhios agam, mar is atá ag gach uile dhuine, ó thaobh bhuiséad caipitil an údaráis, go raibh laghdú airgid ann ach anois tá ardú ann i mbliana don údarás. Bhí laghdú ann do chuile Roinn.

Chairman: Tá a fhios agam, ach an fhadhb atá ann ná go gcuireann an tAire Stáit an locht ar an easpa airgid atá ann. Dá mbeadh sé sin fíor, bheadh an easpa airgid sin scaipthe thart timpeall gach Roinn evenly. Ní tharla sé sin. An fhadhb atá ann ná go bhfuil easpa béim agus easpa polasaí láidir ag an Rialtas i gceist. Trí bliana ó shin, chonaiceamar go raibh airgead ag teacht isteach go dtí na Ranna eile. Bhí ardú buiséid ann, ach ní raibh ardú buiséad ar fáil don Ghaeilge ag an am. Dhá bhliain ó shin, bhí an t-ardú sin ag dul ar aghaidh sna Ranna eile ach ní raibh ardú ann sa Roinn seo. Tá a fhios ag cách go bhfuil easpa béime i gceist. Nílim ag rá go bhfuil na hAirí lag. Is é atá á rá againn ná go bhfuil an páirtí ag teacht chuig an ábhar seo gan an béim chuí a bheith ann.

San earnáil oideachais, tá caighdeán na múinteoirí ag titim gach bliain. Deir múinteoirí atá ag teacht amach as an gcóras tríú leibhéal nach bhfuil an caighdeán céanna ann. Dúirt an tAire, an Teachta Coveney, cúpla mí ó shin nach mbeidh riachtanas Gaeilge ag baint le poist leabharlannaithe sa tír seo as seo amach. Bíonn céim sa treo mícheart ann gach bliain ó thaobh riachtanas, béim agus iarrachtaí agus ní de bharr airgid ach de bharr pholasaithe an Rialtais.

Ta cúpla ceist eile agam mar tá an t-am beagnach druidte anois. Caitheann an Rialtas €20,000 gach bliain ar thacaíocht do dhaoine taobh amuigh den Ghaeltacht a bhfuil ag tógáil a bpáistí le Gaeilge. Is airgead uafásach beag é sin. An bhfuil aon dul chun cinn déanta ag an Rialtas sa bhuiséad maidir leis sin?

35 Buiséad2016 don G haeilgeA: nt AireS táitag an R oinnE alaíonO, idhreachtaG, nóthaíR éigiúnachaT, uaitheagus G aeltachta Ceapaim gur íocann an Roinn as pinsin eagraíochtaí a bhaineann leis an Roinn ach amháin Údarás na Gaeltachta agus Foras na Gaeilge a íocann as a bpinsin féin as a mbuiséid féin. An mbeidh an Rialtas in ann dul chun cinn a dhéanamh faoi sin? Cad iad na heagraíochtaí taobh amuigh d’Údarás na Gaeltachta agus d’Fhoras na Gaeltachta a íocann as a bpinsin fein?

Deputy Seán Kyne: Ó thaobh an airgid sa bhuiséad, tá sé leagtha síos go bhfuil ardú ann ó thaobh an buiséid reatha d’Údarás na Gaeltachta. Tá airgead breise ann a chuirfear ar fáil lastigh de mo Roinn don obair a dhéanann an t-údarás. Tá airgead ag teacht ó Fhoras na Gaeilge freisin don Ghaeilge a chur chun cinn timpeall na tíre. Thug mé cead do €150,000 d’ionad Gaeilge i dTamhlacht i mBaile Átha Cliath seachtain ó shin. Sílim go gcuireann an Cathao- irleach fáilte roimhe sin.

Chairman: Is rud maith é.

Deputy Seán Kyne: Ní haontaím leis an gCathaoirleach nach bhfuil an bhéim i gceart ag an Roinn. Is Roinn nua é an Roinn seo ó thaobh an ról forbartha i dtaobh gnóthaí réigiúnacha agus tuaithe. Tá an Roinn níos láidre anois. Tá an Cathaoirleach ceart go dteastaíonn níos mó airgid. Nílimid ag rá nach dteastaíonn. Beimid in ann aon airgead breise a chaitheamh i gceart chun feabhas a dhéanamh ar sheirbhísí agus ar an gcaighdeán Gaeilge.

Ó thaobh an pholasaí oideachais, tá an ceart ag an gCathaoirleach go bhfuil laghdú tagtha ar an gcaighdeán atá ag cuid de na múinteoirí. Sin an fáth go bhfuil sé sin lárnach sa pholasaí don oideachas Gaeltachta. Tá plé idir mo Roinn agus an Roinn Oideachais agus Scileanna maidir leis.

Tá an obair ag dul ar aghaidh. Tá an ceart ag an gCathaoirleach go dteastaíonn níos mó airgid. Níl aon duine ag rá nach dteastaíonn. Déanaimid an-iarracht breis airgid a fháil i gcónaí. Ag ullmhú don bhuiséad in 2018, beidh orainn cás a chur ó thaobh na pleananna teanga agus an breis airgid a theastaíonn chun iad a chur i bhfeidhm. Beidh orainn é sin a phlé ag an gcruinniú idirrannach, é a chur ar an gclár agus é a phlé leis an Aire, an Teachta Donohoe. Táimid agus beimid ag obair ar na rudaí sin.

Chairman: Cad faoi na pinsin? Íocann Údarás na Gaeltachta agus Foras na Gaeilge as a bpinsin féin as a mbuiséid féin ach ní sin an gnáthchleachtadh. Faigheann na heagraíochtaí eile airgead dá gcuid pinsean ón Roinn.

Deputy Seán Kyne: Sin an próiseas. Beidh an t-airgead ag teacht ón Roinn.

Chairman: An fhadhb atá ann ná go gcuireann sé dallamullóg ar dhaoine. Nuair a breath- naímid ar an méid airgid a fhaigheann Údarás na Gaeltachta agus Foras na Gaeilge agus an méid airgid a fhaigheann eagraíochtaí eile, sa chomhréir airgid atá á fháil ag Údarás na Gael- tachta agus Foras na Gaeilge tá airgead ann do na pinsin. Ní do tograí nua an t-airgead sin. An fhadhb atá ann ná go bhfuil an comhréir ag fás. Tá na pinsin ag alpadh siar níos mó airgid agus tá an comhréir ag ardú gach bliain.

Deputy Seán Kyne: Sin an próiseas atá ann agus sin an próiseas céanna atá ann in áite- anna eile ar nós Waterways Ireland agus cuid de na heagraíochtaí eile. Níl liosta agam de na heagraíochtaí go léir. B’fhéidir go mbeimid in ann é sin a fháil ó áit éigin, ach sin an próiseas.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív: Beidh mise sciobtha mar tá sé ag éirí déanach. Scríobhann an tAire litir, a réitíonn an stiúrthóir dó, chuig Údarás na Gaeltachta a leagan amach cé ar a chaith- fear an t-airgead an bhliain dar gcionn agus bíonn treoracha áirid ag baint leis. An bhfuil i gceist

36 Joint Committee on Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs treoir a thabhairt sa litir sin go gcaithfear an €250,000 breise a chuirfear ar fáil le haghaidh na gcomharchumann Gaeltachta ar na comharchumainn Ghaeltachta agus eagraíochtaí pobalbhu- naithe atá ann faoi láthair le nach ndéanann an t-údarás aon rud eile leis an airgead seachas an rud a fréamhú é? Fuair an tAire Stáit an t-airgead ar chúis áirid. An bhfuil sé i gceist aige a chinntiú sa litir a chuirfear ar fáil don údarás go gcaithfeadh an t-údarás an t-airgead ar an rud a bhí i gceist ag an Aire Stáit nuair a bhfuair sé an t-airgead?

Molaim go scríobhfadh an coiste seo chuig an Aire, an Teachta Zappone, maidir leis na hionaid tacaíochta teaghlaigh agus an fhadhb faoi leith atá acu a d’ardaigh an Seanadóir Ó Clochartaigh maidir le breis ama le go mbeidh siad in ann foireann oilte a bheith acu san ionad tacaíochta teaghlaigh le cáilíochtaí FETAC leibhéal 5 acu. Tá na daoine atá ag obair ann ar an gcúrsa FETAC leibhéal 5 ach ní bheidh an cúrsa críochnaithe an 1 Eanáir an bhliain seo chugainn. Sílim go dtógfaidh sé sé mhí breise. Molaim go scríobhfadh an coiste seo chuig an Aire, an Teachta Zappone, ag iarraidh sé mhí breise sula gcuirfí an coinníoll sin i bhfeidhm de bharr nach féidir leo dul amach ar an margadh oscailte agus daoine a earcú mar caithfidh Gaeilge a bheith ag na daoine chomh maith le cáilíocht i gcúram leanaí.

Ar an gcéad dul síos, molaim an tAire Stáit go hard. Bhí mé ag moladh é seo nuair a chas muid le chéile i mí an Mheithimh. Dúirt mé go mbeadh easpa caiteachais i gcodanna den Ro- inn. Mhol mé ag an am go ndéanfaí iomrascáil leis an airgead agus go gcaithfí an oiread den airgead sin agus a bhféadfaí roimh deireadh na bliana ar thograí a bhí aibí. B’fhéidir go gcuireann sé mearbhall ar chuid de na hionadaithe poiblí anseo ach ní chuireann sé aon mhearbhall ormsa. Bhí dhá rogha ag an Aire Stáit: é a chur ar ais chuig an Státciste nó é a chaitheamh. Má tá an tAire Stáit in ann bronntanas a thabhairt d’aon eagraíocht a bhfuil, mar a déarfá, dliteanais aibí acu, deirim leis, “Coinnigh ort agus déan é.” Tá mé cinnte go raibh Údarás na Gaeltachta thar a bheith buíoch don €2 mhilliún a bhfuair sé roimh an Nollaig. Bíonn rudaí eile a d’íoctaí amach. Mar shampla, d’íoc an tAire Stáit amach ar fhiacha ar ché Inis Meáin agus ar Inis Oírr agus mar sin de. Rinne mé amach anseo cheana féin nach gcaithfidh Leader an méid airgid atá leagtha amach dó an bhliain seo chugainn. Deirim leis an Aire Stáit a lámh a shín amach go sciobtha chuig an Aire in aice leis agus an oiread den airgead sin agus is féidir leis a fháil chun é a chaitheamh ar an nGaeltacht agus ar na hoileáin chomh luath agus is féidir leis.

É sin ráite, creidim go mba cheart go mbeadh ar a laghad buiséad €3 mhilliún nó €4 mhilliún in aghaidh na bliana d’infreastruchtúr ar na hoileáin. Tá a fhios ag an Aire Stáit é féin é, mar tá sé tar éis cuairt a thabhairt go go leor de na hoileáin agus casadh le go leor de na hoileánaigh, go mbeidh riachtanais caipitil i gcónaí ar oileáin maidir le céanna, bóithre agus rudaí mar sin. Chomh maith leis sin, má tá an tAire Stáit ag iarraidh go dtógfar rudaí ar nós ionad sláinte agus mar sin de, is iontach mar a oibríonn an chomhmhaoiniú. Tuigeann an stiúrthóir atá in aice leis an Aire Stáit é seo mar bhí sé ann nuair a tosaíodh ar an obair seo ar fad i bhfad siar nuair a thugadh na hoileáin isteach faoin Roinn Ealaíon, Oidhreachta, Gaeltachta agus Oileán, mar a bhí ag an am. Tuigeann sé go n-éiríonn linn go leor rudaí a chur chun cinn le heagraíochtaí eile - mar shampla, an HSE - ar na hoileáin trí chomhmhaoiniú a chur ar fáil. Déarfaidís otherwise nach raibh an daonra ann agus nárbh fhiú an caiteachas caiptil an tairbhe agus mar sin de.

Bheadh mise ag moladh go dteastódh €1.4 mhilliún do thograí caipitil Gaeilge agus Gael- tachta. Theastódh dáiríre go leanúnach €5 mhilliún in aghaidh na bliana ar a laghad le clár ceart a chur i bhfeidhm. Theastódh €4 mhilliún ar oileáin ar a laghad do chéanna, bóithre, tograí beaga agus mar sin de agus go mbeadh clár tograí beaga ann chuile bliain. Tá gá leis sin freisin fós. Bheadh mise ag rá gur chóir go mbeadh €8 milliún, €9 milliún nó €10 milliún ann do caipitil don Ghaeilge, don Ghaeltacht agus do na hoileáin. An bhliain seo, ta bealach ag na

37 Buiséad2016 don G haeilgeA: nt AireS táitag an R oinnE alaíonO, idhreachtaG, nóthaíR éigiúnachaT, uaitheagus G aeltachta hAirí le teacht anair aduaidh air. Níl sé sa Revised Estimates ach beidh an tAire Stáit in ann an t-airgead a fháil ó Leader mar ní chaithfidh Leader an t-airgead atá leagtha amach dó an bhliain seo chugainn. Creid uaimse é go mbeidh mé ag caint faoi seo in Aibreán agus i Meitheamh ach caithfidh sé tosú luath sa bhliain mar ní féidir, mar a deirim, an t-airgead a chaitheamh mura bhfuil na tograí réidh.

Bhíomar ag caint faoi bhuaine agus bhí an Seanadóir Ó Clochartaigh ag caint faoi bhuaine don airgead don Fhoras Teanga. An rud dar liomsa a dhéanfadh buan é ná dá mbeadh comhm- haoiniú ar fáil ón bhFeidhmeannas ó Thuaidh. Tá sé i bhfad níos deacra don Rialtas ó Dheas a tharraingt as mar d’fhéadfadh an tAire Stáit dul chuig an Aire Airgeadais agus chuig an Aire Caitheachais Phoiblí agus Athchóirithe ag rá go bhfuil comhmhaoiniú i gceist anseo agus má tharraingíonn muide siar an t-airgead, tharraingeodh an Feidhmeannas siar an t-airgead. Crei- dim féin gurb é eochair na ceiste seo ná é a chur ina luí ar na húdaráis ó Thuaidh an comhm- haoiniú a chur ar fáil.

Molaim go scríobhfadh muid chuig an cathaoirleach ar an gcoiste cultúir, ealaíon agus fóil- líochta sa bhFeidhmeannas ó Thuaidh agus chuig an Aire airgeadais ó Thuaidh. Fear atá ina Ghaeilgeoir dílis agus fear a bhfuil an-mheas agam air. Molaim go scríobhfadh muid chuig an bheirt acu sin ag rá go bhfuilimid an-sásta go bhfuil an Rialtas seo ag cur airgid breise ar fáil ach go mba iontach an rud é dá bhfeicfaidís siúd bealach le comhmhaoiniú a chur ar fáil le buaine a thabhairt don airgead seo. Ní bheadh sé buan más rud é gur thug an Rialtas ó Dheas é gan an Rialtas ó Thuaidh á thabhairt. Is é bunús an tsocraithe buan a rinneadh nuair a bunaíodh an Foras Teanga ná go mbeadh comhmhaoiniú ann. Bhí trí in aghaidh a haon ó Thuaidh ó thaobh an Gníomhaireacht Ultaise agus vice versa, trí in aghaidh a haon, ó thaobh an Rialtais ó Dheas. Tá eochair na ceiste sin i lámh an Aire Stáit ar bhealach. Creidim go mba cheart dúinn litir an-laidir a scríobh ag tacú go mór go mbeadh an comhmhaoiniú ar fáil. Má éiríonn linn é sin a bhaint amach, beidh sé i bhfad níos éasca don Aire Stáit dul chuig an Aire, an Teachta Dono- hoe, nó pé duine eile a bheidh ann mar Aire Caiteachais Phoiblí agus Athchóirithe an bhliain seo chugainn, agus a rá go bhfuil comh-mhaoiniú i gceist anseo. Tá na Tuaisceartaigh in ann a gcuid siúd a chur ar fáil agus fág ann é. Tá mé cinnte dearfach sa chomhthéacs sin go n-éireoidh leis an Aire Stáit.

Chairman: An bhfuil an moladh sin aontaithe?

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Tá.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív: Céard faoin moladh scríobh chuig an Aire, an Teachta Zappone?

Chairman: An bhfuil sé sin aontaithe?

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Tacaím leis ach sílim gur cheart é a fhágáil leis na naío- lanna Gaeltachta ar fad, mar d’fhéadfadh sé go bhfuil cuid eile sa Ghaeltacht atá-----

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív: Aon áit atá ag feidhmiú trí Ghaeilge, do deimhin féin-----

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Cinnte.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív: Má tá naíonraí nó naíolanna sa Ghalltacht ag feidhmiú trí Ghaeilge, ba cheart go mbeadh sé mhí breise-----

Chairman: An féidir leis an Teachta an fhoclaíocht a sheoladh chuig cléireach an choiste?

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív: Cinnte. 38 Joint Committee on Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs Chairman: B’fhéidir go bhfreagróidh an tAire Stáit an cúpla ceist a chuir an Teachta Ó Cuív mar fhocal scoir.

Deputy Seán Kyne: Bhéinn an-sásta breis airgid a fháil ó Leader. Coimeádfaidh mé súil ar sin agus déanfaidh mé iarracht an t-airgead sin a fháil más rud é go bhfuil sé soiléir nach bhfuil sé caite. Luaigh an Teachta na fadhbanna leis an Roinn Leanaí agus Gnóthaí Óige. De réir an eolais atá agam, tá an t-ábhar seo á phlé idir an Roinn agus an bainisteoir san ionad cúram leanaí i gConamara. Bhí siad le labhairt le chéile faoi na fadhbanna áirithe seo, ach níl a fhios agam ar tharla sé sin go fóill. Tá sé ráite, ach ní raibh a fhios agam go mbéinn ag scríobh litir ceadacháin d’Údarás na Gaeltachta faoin airgead breise seo. Tá mé sásta breathnú ar an ábhar seo. Mar a dúirt mé, chas mé leis na comharchumainn. Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil an-obair á dhéanamh acu trasna na tíre agus ar na hoileáin. Tá an t-airgead atá ar fáil do na hoileáin taobh amuigh den Ghaeltacht fágtha ag an leibhéal céanna, seachas i gcás Inis Arcáin. Ceadaíodh ardú suntasach i gcás an oileán sin ós rud é go raibh an t-airgead a bhí ar fáil an-íseal. Is léir dom ó mo chuid cainteanna le príomhfheidhmeannach an údaráis go bhfuil a fhios aige go dteastaíonn breis arigid ó na comharchumainn.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív: Beidh caipitil de €10 milliún ar fáil an bhliain seo chugainn le haghaidh an Ghaeilge agus an Ghaeltacht.

Chairman: Iarraim ar gach Teachta agus gach Seanadóir a chuir ceisteanna os comhair an Aire Stáit, ach nach raibh sé in ann iad a fhreagairt inniu, na ceisteanna sin a sheol chuig cléi- reach an choiste. I gcás ceist nó dhó, dúirt an tAire Stáit go raibh air an t-eolas a fháil amach. Iarraim ar bhaill an choiste na ceisteanna sin a sheoladh chugainn faoin lá amárach ionas go mbeidh an t-eolas ar ais chucu roimh Dé Céadaoin seo chugainn. Gabhaim míle buíochas roimh gach duine a bhí i láthair inniu. Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil siad an-ghnóthach. Chaith siad a lán ama anseo inniu. Guím sonas agus síocháin orthu i rith an Nollag.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.45 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 18 January 2017.