Han: Feng: Han: Feng Congde (Feng): influence inthecountry’s futuredevelopment. anditslingering China over thepast17years, and subsequentviolentcrackdownmeantfor Movement lookbackonwhatthemovement Two ofthe1989Democracy leaders FENG CONGDEINTERVIEWS HANDONGFANG LONG-TERM LEGACY JUNE 4TH’S OFF TOPIC: today? cance doyou thinkthey had? what signifi- 1989, nowLooking back ontheevents ofJune4, worker protests at of1989. Tiananmen Square inthespring protest. problem hasaroused considerablecials.This discontentand promised oflocaloffi- tothepeasantsends upinthepockets andmostofthecompensation use leasesthepeasantshold, isusually land donewithoutregard tolong-term courses.This sitesandgolf of industrial for theconstruction for instance, have farmland inthenameofdevelopment, usurped ship level, especially at thevillage andtown- localofficials, past tenyears, over the problem ofpeasantlandisoneexample: injustice.The includingsocial ing concrete socialandeconomicissues, but only through address- merely through politicaldiscussion, June 4th. are andinthecountryside directlyprise related totheevents of inprivate enter- amongthecommonpeople, party, the ruling in that havethat allthechanges taken placeinthegovernment, itcanbesaid Inthepast17years, did for many otherpeople. my anditchanged life direction—as Ibelieve it were crushed, Imyself was oneof thosewhosehopes people hadplacedinit. thesanguinehopesthatCommunist many Party—and crushed people’s impression ofChina’s Chinese party—the soleruling theChinese Italsochanged was thecountry moving. which thedirection in itchanged from abroader perspective, hand, nte su sta ntelt 90,the government Another issueis that inthelate 1990s, There are several urgent issuesthat can’t beaddressed June 4was Ontheone amajorevent inChinesehistory. How doyou perceive thesituation ofChinesesociety a ogag you helpedorganize Han Dongfang, cnm ste cabefrtels ic ftepe Ifyou economy asthey scramble for thelastpieceof pie. The interests inlocalgovernment ofofficials liemore inthe split between the centralgovernment andlocal governments. more frequently andmineworkers enjoy nosecurity. mineaccidents occur toaviciouscircleinwhich tributed energy have shortage increases incoalprices andsharp con- provinces hundreds ofkilometers away towork inmines.The sometravel to limitedalternatives, their livelihood.With their landorfrom placeswhere crops are inadequate tosustain Mineworkers are generally peasantswhohavemining. lost percent—most ofitiswasted through carelessness andover- theutilization rate ofcoalinChinaislessthan30 For example, andfinallythe transportation theeffective useoftheresources. ing energy resources from the exploitation planningstage to Nooneisresponsiblethat ensures socialstability. for oversee- itincreasinglywhich requires for theeconomicdevelopment people inevery walk oflife willpay for it. Ultimately includingofficials. but alsotherich, only thepoor, not harms which overlook protection oftheenvironment, they wealthto plunderasmuch andresources aspossible, favor exercising theirpower oftheirpersonalinterests.While in includingtheuseofenergy resources, national interests, ment officialshave ablind turned eye tothebigpicture and localgovern- process, theindustrialization During pollution. foundations. society’s resulting discontentisundermining livelihood.The ormeansof andleftwithnosocialsecurity owned enterprises large number ofworkers whohave beenlaidofffrom state- problem citizensandthepower isthe ordinary elite.Another caused massive socialdiscontentasthegap widensbetween andhas the public coffers intothehandsofpowerful elite, lossofstate assetsfunneledfromtem hascausedanenormous sys- andillegaltransformation ofthestateirregular enterprise etors bothlegally chaotic, oflabor andinterms relations.This thecadres intopropri- turning the actualvalue oftheassets, been handedover tothecadres whoranthemat afractionof haseven Ownershipofenterprises contract systemandsoon. introducing a by forcing employees tobuy company stock, began coercively privatizing system thestate-owned enterprise All ofthesedevelopments toagrowing contribute power but Chinalacks, which Another issueisenergy resources, Another majorsocialissueinChinatoday isenvironmental

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want to talk about who in China cares least about the Commu- word for “citizen” actually refers to common people who are nist Party,it’s local officials.They ignore popular discontent ruled by others, which is not very conducive to civic con- and grab as much as they can, which only exacerbates discon- sciousness. So what is civil society,really? In constitutional pol- tent against the Communist Party. itics, the term civil society refers to those people who have the The interests of the central government lie more in politics. constitutional rights of citizens. In fact, the common people in Central government officials are dissatisfied with the activities of our country do not have constitutional rights, and that’s what local officials and want to curb them, but the system upon has kept civil society from developing. which they depend makes this impossible. If we review the his- tory of our country,we see that China is currently in a histori- The common people in our country do cally critical phase. In Chinese history,peasant uprisings typically lead to regime change, but every time the regime is replaced, the not have constitutional rights, and that’s new regime once again becomes corrupt and degenerate and what has kept civil society from arouses public discontent, which eventually reaches a boiling developing. point and leads to a new popular uprising. I feel China has reached such a point now.The most critical issue for us now is to find a way to avoid re-entering this historical cycle. So the common people need to become citizens, but this transformation can’t be bestowed on them by someone else— Feng:You’ve outlined some of the major issues China faces. Do they have to do it themselves, through their own efforts. How? you see any solutions to these problems? I see the forming of associations as a key step—workers form- ing labor unions, peasants, businessmen and students forming Han: I’d like to talk about some aspects related to my work their own associations, and communities forming organiza- experience: one is China’s need for rule of law.Without rule of tions to defend their rights. law,everything falls into chaos.There’s a saying that you have It is worth emphasizing that citizens need to know how to to have a compass to draw a circle.We typically regard the legal use the law to protect their rights. In other words, the establish- system and regulations as only controlling the common ment of civil society needs the protections offered by the legal people, but in fact, regulations should form a legal system that system. On the other hand, if the legal system is not accompa- applies to each individual and entity,including the leader of nied or supported by the development of civil society,it will the country or Party,a company,a house, land, lake, energy eventually revert to nothing more than a tool of the power elite. resource or anything else, with regulations clearly determining who owns something, how it is run or exploited, the lines that Feng: Your organization, China Labor Bulletin, aims to protect cannot be crossed, what things a political party can and cannot the rights and benefits of workers. It is said that the lack of par- do, the responsibilities and the obligations of the government, ticipation by workers and peasants in the 1989 Democracy and the responsibilities and the obligations of the citizen.Then Movement led to workers and peasants suffering the worst society can work things out through the legal system instead of long-term consequences of the June 4th crackdown in terms allowing the powerful to impose their will on the powerless. of their livelihoods.The perception is that the 1989 Democ- Another issue is the cultivation of civil society.Our country racy Movement was a movement of intellectuals, and that does not have a tradition of civil society.In fact, the Chinese because they fought for their rights, the Communist Party made concessions to them, while the Party thinks workers and peasants are relatively easy to bully,and so feels free to oppress them.What is your view on this?

Han: The truth is, a social movement develops as part of a his- torical phase, rather than being created or propelled by any particular individuals or groups.At that time, the workers and peasants were feeling fairly comfortable, so when they took up banners and demonstrated in the streets, they did so in support of the students. But what were the students fighting for? They were protesting corruption, and calling for democracy and greater media oversight to fight corruption, which they saw as threatening the rights and welfare of the people, that is, the workers and peasants. So we can see there was a misunder- standing between the two sides: the students were fighting for progress and rights for society as a whole, including workers and peasants, but the workers and peasants didn’t feel they were under threat; they just felt they were doing the students a favor by lending their support. Feng Congde As a result, there was no dominant force in the movement, just different social groups supporting each other. It was a of the students and be tantamount to a reversal of the official peculiar phenomenon of Chinese society,and there’s no point judgment of June 4th. Local officials took advantage of this raw 2006

in blaming anyone for it. But one of the problems that resulted nerve in the central government and indulged in corruption . 2,

was that because the main demand of the students was to elim- with little fear that the central government would take action. NO inate corruption, after the June 4th crackdown, the Commu- In the 10 years following June 4th, corruption developed at a nist Party became hypersensitive over the corruption issue, rapid pace, laying a solid foundation for the more large-scale fearing that addressing this issue would vindicate the demands corruption that prevails today,and the loss of control by the

First Tiananmen, Then the World RIGHTS FORUM

BY HU PING CHINA China’s unwillingness to face up to June 4th bodes ill for its contribution to from power of the Soviet government, all marked a low-tide

world peace. for the prospects of Socialism and a high-point for capital- 75 ism in the post-war era . . .At present, the world socialist Seventeen years after the violent official crackdown on pro- movement has not only withstood the impact of the democracy protestors at Tiananmen Square, the subject of upheavals in Eastern Europe, but has actually enjoyed a

“June 4th” remains taboo in public discourse.This in itself measure of renewal and development . . . Especially in TURES makes clear the terrible conditions of human rights in China, which constitutes 20 percent of the world’s popula- China today. tion, the adherence to a socialist direction along with What we need to consider at this point is whether in the reform and opening has resulted in enormous accomplish- past 17 years China has made progress toward democracy, ments . . .World Socialism has already begun to emerge or whether the Communist autocracy has only become from its nadir and is experiencing a rebound.”The writer REGULAR FEA stronger. In view of the present circumstances, what will predicted that the capitalist globalization led by the United China be like in another 10 to 20 years? And what influence States would eventually be replaced by a socialist globaliza- will China have on the rest of the world? tion led by China. The fact is, no one retains any faith that Hu Jintao will This is a message we cannot afford to ignore, because it promote democratic reform.At a press conference during makes clear that with consolidation of power, the Chinese his visit to the United States in April this year, in reply to a Communist authorities, or at least a portion of them, are journalist’s question about whether China would implement increasingly losing patience with Deng Xiaoping’s policy of democracy,Hu said, “I’m not sure what definition of “speaking softly and carrying a big stick.”This was always ‘democracy’ this journalist friend is referring to, but we just a matter of time, because that policy was meant to con- have all along maintained that there cannot be moderniza- ceal China’s true strength and capabilities only until the tion without democracy.”1 time was ripe. What Hu was really saying here was, “You have your The nature of autocratic governments is to expand their democracy,and we have our democracy.Given China’s power, and such governments are intrinsically hostile to impressive accomplishments in modernization, it should democratic governments.This is because democratic govern- be clear that China’s political system is appropriate to ments by their very existence offer an irresistible attraction to China’s conditions and that it is serving the interests of the the citizens of autocratic governments, and therefore are Chinese people, and therefore it must be democratic.” regarded with fear and loathing by those governments. We know that in March this year, the Chinese govern- China is a world power that makes up one-fifth of the ment published a “White Paper on Democracy” in which it world’s population. If China remains a Communist autoc- clearly set forth that the democracy being implemented in racy for the next 20 years, it will inevitably use its enor- China is democracy under the leadership of the Communist mous power to pose a serious threat to the freedom and Party.And on May 11, the Chinese Academy of Social Sci- democracy of the entire world. In this sense, we must ences (CASS) published its Yellow Paper on World Socialism,2 acknowledge that China’s human rights problems are in which states that “The homeland security strategies of the fact the problems of the whole world. United States in the twenty-first century constitute the greatest threat to China’s economic security.” NOTES CASS Vice-President Li Shenming wrote a forward for the 1. Quoted in “Women yiguan renwei, meiyou minzhu jiu meiyou Yellow Paper entitled, “The Prospects for Development of xiandaihua,” Singtaonet.com,April 21, 2006, http://www. Socialism in the Twenty-First Century.” In it he observes, singtaonet.com/global/hjt/hjt4/t20060421_195864.html. “The upheavals in the former Soviet Union and Eastern 2. Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, Shijie shehui zhuyi huangpishu,2006. Europe, the breakup of the former Soviet Union, the fall See http://www.cass.net.cn/file/2006051559241.html. interest group for workers that has no direction relationship with the regime. Its main target is the boss, the employer, and its daily concerns are pay,welfare, working hours and working conditions. But even though the labor union’s direct counterpart is not the government, this doesn’t mean unions don’t deal with the government.A labor union needs the government to serve as a referee or intermediary between the boss and the union. Another issue is official legislation.A government is never completely neutral, and always takes its own interests into account, but a labor union can use its lobbying capacity to influence legislation and enforcement by the government to make it more neutral and even favor the workers.This is a fea- ture of special interest groups, and labor unions are no excep- tion.That’s why labor unions should be able to play an important role in resolving current social crises and avoiding the eruption of future social crises, because in principle labor unions resolve conflicts through peaceful organization and rational negotiation rather than by striking down or annihilat- ing the opposition.

Feng: In the past we’ve seen many cases of workers defending their rights in which their leaders were arrested. Have there been relatively successful cases of workers defending their rights through independent unions?

Han: I feel we shouldn’t simply reckon that the situation of one case can explain that of another. For example, in the case of the events in Daqing and Liaoyang in 2001,1 workers had been Han Dongfang demonstrating continuously for several weeks without being arrested, while back in 1990 or 1991, you wouldn’t dare con- sider the possibility of going on strike. So events that take place central government. Before 1999, the central government still during a certain stage and under certain conditions don’t nec- had a certain authority over the local government, but if you essarily indicate what will happen five years later, and they look at things now in 2006, at least in terms of the economy, shouldn’t intimidate us from trying to do something.That’s how much authority does the central government have over why I feel that we shouldn’t allow the arrest and imprisonment local government? So we can see the far-reaching influence of labor organizers in the past to serve as a psychological June 4th had on Chinese society,and it’s something we should obstacle for Chinese workers to stand up and defend their reflect on when we review those events today. rights today or in the future.

Feng: Back in 1989, you were actively working toward the for- We shouldn’t use the terrible events mation of independent labor organizations.That seems to have been quite farsighted at that time.What was your strongest of years ago to anticipate what’s going feeling at that time, and what hopes do you have now for the to happen today or in the future or allow future? them to intimidate us into forfeiting

Han: At that time, the thing I felt most was that I didn’t know our rights. how to go about organizing the workers. I was a worker too, a railway worker, but I didn’t know what a labor union was, Nowadays you have taxi drivers going on strike, and in what the relationship should be between a labor union and the Heze, Shandong Province in February,thousands of textile fac- workers, or between a labor union and politics or the regime, tory workers went on strike for more than a week without any- and what people a labor union should communicate with. one being arrested.They were fighting for something very Now,after years of working in the international labor move- simple, a raise in pay,and they got it.These situations show us ment, including visiting and communicating with other that society is advancing, and that social and economic rela- groups, considering the rights and benefits of workers and tions are changing, and behind the scenes government policy providing legal assistance to workers in individual cases, I is changing as well.That’s why we shouldn’t use the terrible know what’s involved.The labor union is actually a special events of years ago to anticipate what’s going to happen today Han: Feng: Han: Feng: Han: Feng: toolongandsocietyexplodes. toomuch borne whenthey have rather thanwaiting untilthelastminute, peacefulnegotiation andlegalchannels crete intervention, con- say, citizensdefend theirown through awareness, rights a very goodmodelfor solvingChina’s isto future crises.That workersnegotiation andlitigation actually ifnecessary, provide through Bydefending association, theirrights our rights. or inthefuture orallow themtointimidate usintoforfeiting again inChina? like doyou June4thcouldoccur thinkascenario to thefuture, two options? doyou thinkofthese the existingofficiallabor union.What andtheotheristouse workers theirown toform labor union, ties?”They replied very frankly,ties?”They “Atthat timewe didn’t have the you prepared totake advantage oftheresults andopportuni- take inyour youto regime countries change by surprise? Were didthepeaceful revolution that led 1989, afterJune4, frankly: “Pleasetellme Iasked them, andRussia, European countries quences far outweigh thebenefits. andthenegative conse- positive people, toordinary benefit hasbrought little thischange ideology andofourcountry, ourviews June4thchanged ofofficial again arise.Although shouldnever ascenario Mypersonal wishisthat such tion. and my objective judgment andanalysis situa- ofthecurrent trouble for someindividuals. have noreason toopposeit. I Ifthey’re willingtodoit, forming independentlabor unions. law.This doesn’t mean Iopposeordissuadeworkers from andyou’rethan theopponentofemployer, protected by rather thelabor unionpresents itselfasthecounterpart outset, from the methodalsoavoids covertenterprises.This activity; anditsetsagoodexamplefor workers at othernearby risks, wayand procedures.This noonetakes any legalorpolitical China Federation of Trade Unionswithitsexistingregulations with theLabor andthenregister underthe UnionLaw, All- themselves by electingalabor unioncommitteeinaccordance ter for workers incompanieswithoutlabor unionstoorganize Ithinkit’stality ofChina’s bet- workers andthelegalsituation, Basedonmy knowledge ofthemen- endurance. psychological Italsodependsonworkers’ more effective intheirsituation. depends onwhat theworkers want andwhat they feel willbe In April, while I was talking with some friends from central whileIwas talkingwith somefriends In April, I shouldmake adistinctionbetween my personalwishes andmay leadto greaterIn my risk, itdoesbring view, It I don’t oneover feel tochoose itisnecessary theother. We’ve talked about June4thtothepresent day. Looking It’s justthat there are involved. greater risks oneisfor There are two ways toformalabor union: on HRIC’s www.hrichina.org.Web site, The audioversion ofthisinterview can beheardasaPodcast Translated by Wei Liu oflaw.and resentment through rule andtofindaway toresolve thesefeelings ofanger sciousness, topromote civilandsocialcon- resources andcapabilities, given ouravailableshould give useven more ofanimpetus, realization possibility ofanotherJune4thstillexists.This Who willitbe? to work inthecitiesandare unable toobtainany security? or thehundreds ofmillionsmigrantswholeave theirhomes catalyst? residents whohaveWill itbetherural losttheirland, arises? another June4thscenario socialclasswillbethe Which willitlooklike if acted solely ofthestudents.What insupport whenthey will notbeascomplacentthey were in1989, could very well happen again. it inreality, inChinaislikely; that anotherJune4thscenario Ibelieve and theincreasing disregard for the commonpeople, ofofficialsandtheelite, especially at thecorruption China, the decliningtrends andrapid escalation ofsocialproblems in Butthisisjustmyby hope.Today civilsociety. whenIlookat andestablishmentown ofthelegalsystemispropelled society, rather for citizens build agradualprocessuptheir inwhich tunities tous.” and building upcivilsocietywould have brought theseoppor- establishing thelegalsystem up givingustheseopportunities, thingisthat even ifnobody ended ing themaburden.Another have beeninabetterpositiontoseizethemwithoutconsider- we would arrived, oncetheopportunities opportunities.Then ment ofthelegalsystemandcivilsocietytodealwithfuture “We would said, havedone?”They accelerated thedevelop- what would you havetunity toprepare for theevents of1989, if five ortenyears before 1989you hadbeengiven theoppor- they justfelt they were notsufficiently prepared. opportunity; they didn’t feel they wereat thesametime, wrong toseizethe tion.”They madereference totheconditionsinRussiatoday. But stage where we theoutcometoward couldturn apositive direc- Ourcivilsocietyhadn’tsocially orpsychologically. a reached either ability orthepreparation todealwiththeoutcome, .I aig hn’ anolpouigcne,thousandsof workers China’s mainoil-producing center, InDaqing, 1. NOTES sentenced tolengthyterms. prison Liaoyang protests,Yao FuxingandXiao were subsequently Yunliang, massive layoffs resulting from factory shutdowns.Two leadersofthe thousands more workers besiegedthecity’s government offices over privatized DaqingOilCompany.Around thesametimeinLiaoyang, 2002overprotested inMarch thelossofjobsandbenefits at thenewly eadeso hc oilcasmgtb h aayt the socialclassmightbethecatalyst, Regardless ofwhich theworkers residents andrural However, ifitdoeshappen, That’s but why my preference isnotfor radicalaction, now, “Lookingback Then Iasked themasecondquestion:

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