11521 J. Kari (For Plaintiffs) in Chief by Ms. Mandell 1 VANCOUVER
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11521 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Ms. Mandell 1 VANCOUVER, B.C. 2 February 7, 1989 3 4 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. In the Supreme Court of British 5 Columbia, Vancouver, this Tuesday, February 7, 1989, 6 calling Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen at 7 bar. And I caution the witness, you are still under 8 oath. 9 JAMES KARI: Previously sworn 10 11 THE COURT: Miss Mandell. 12 MS. MANDELL: 13 Q Thank you. My lord, if I could begin this morning by 14 having your lordship and the witness turn to page 67 15 of tab 2. 16 Having reviewed the loanwords between the Gitksan 17 and the Wet'suwet'en, the report presented by yourself 18 and Dr. Rigsby summarizes the evidence. And if I 19 could turn you to the first full paragraph of the page 20 67: 21 22 "To begin to sum up, the phonological evidence 23 indicates that it was Gitksan which exercised a 24 conservative influence on Wet'suwet'en and blocked 25 the diversion westward of --" 26 27 A Diffusion. 28 Q "Diffusion westward," sorry. 29 30 "-- of the palatal-to-alveopalatal sound shift. 31 There is no evidence that Wet'suwet'en influenced 32 any of the sound changes that can be observed in 33 process or completed in Gitksan." 34 35 And is that the opinion of yourself, Dr. Rigsby, or 36 both? 37 A Both. 38 Q 39 "The vocabulary evidence clearly shows that 40 Gitksan borrowed many fewer words from 41 Wet'suwet'en than the latter did from the former, 42 and the Athabaskan loans for animals into Gitksan 43 (and Nisgha) may be reasonably interpreted as 44 evidence for the arrival of Gitksan (and Nisgha) 45 speech in the upriver Interior areas after 46 Athabaskan speech was already established there." 47 11522 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Ms. Mandell 1 A Yes, that's a safe assumption. But the -- there 2 are -- we would change that statement about the 3 disproportion of loans or the much fewer known loans 4 of Athabaskan and Gitksan because more have turned up 5 more recently. But it doesn't affect the larger, in 6 my opinion. That's if the corpus were brought up 7 to -- completely up to date. 8 Q All right. 9 10 "The Tsimshianic loanwords for plants and animals 11 into Wet'suwet'en reflect the middleman position 12 of the Tsimshianic-speaking peoples in the 13 regional trading system, as well as their 14 mediating role in introducing the Wet'suwet'en to 15 coastal species." 16 17 A Yes. 18 Q And is that your opinion? 19 A Oh, certainly. That's the herring eggs and oolichan, 20 those types of -- and seal and those types of words 21 that we are referring to go. 22 Q All right. 23 24 "The Tsimshianic loanwords pertaining to features 25 of social organization and items of material 26 culture are consistent with the view that the 27 Wet'suwet'en have adapted their social 28 organization and expanded their technilogical 29 inventory more than the Gitksan have. In 30 particular, the Wet'suwet'en adapted the feast 31 complex from the Gitksan, as evidenced in 32 loanwords. And the borrowing of the Gitksan 33 voca --" 34 35 A Vocative. 36 Q 37 "-- vocative form of father indicates that it was 38 common in the past for Gitksan men to marry 3 9 Wet'suwet'en women." 40 41 A Yeah. That's Sbep, S-B-E with an accent -P. 42 THE COURT: What does that mean? That kind of a marriage, is 43 that what that word means? 44 THE WITNESS: Well, if the Athabaskan speakers are using a non- 45 Athabaskan word for "father", it's pretty interesting. 46 They have in other languages, an old Athabaskan word 47 for "father" that they somehow dropped out and 11523 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Ms. Mandell 1 replaced. 2 THE COURT: That word that you've given me -- 3 THE WITNESS Sbep seems to be -- 4 THE COURT: -- means father? 5 THE WITNESS It means father in Wet'suwet'en but it seems to be 6 a Tsimshianic based word for father. 7 MS. MANDELL: 8 Q All right You say: 9 10 "Thus, the linguistic evidence points to long and 11 intimate contact between the Gitksan and 12 Wet'suwet'en." 13 14 Do you accept that opinion? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Now, before we get into the chiefs' names and the 17 place names, I would ask you if you could now turn to 18 tab 5, page 24. 19 THE COURT: I wonder if I could ask just before you do that, 20 Miss Mandell. I take it your evidence is that the 21 Gitksan are not Athabaskan, or are they? 22 THE WITNESS: No. The Gitksan language is a Tsimshianic 23 language as is laid out also in a Rigsby-Kari 1986, 24 with -- no, it's not at all classifiable as an 25 Athabaskan language. 26 THE COURT: And Tsimshianic is not, similarly, classifiable as 27 an Athabaskan language? 28 THE WITNESS: No. The Tsimshian has been postulated to be 29 related to languages down in Oregon and Washington and 30 in Central California, but -- 31 THE COURT: But different areas from the ones you described 32 yesterday? 33 THE WITNESS: Yeah, yeah. That's the Penutian hypothesis, 34 P-E-N-U-T-I-A-N. 35 THE COURT: Sorry, P-E-N-U-T? 36 THE WITNESS: I-A-N. And this map does show the colouring of 37 the Penutian hypothesis by the Suttles map, this 38 orangish tint and this orangish tint here are what are 39 hypothesized as Penutian languages. So Tsimshian, and 40 if it's a Penutian language, is isolated from those 41 other groups by quite a distance. That would be 42 languages like around Warm Springs, Oregon, and 43 Yakima, Washington. That's called the Sahaptin 44 language and the Nez Perce language. Those are -- 45 actually, there are some interesting links with those 46 languages and the Tsimshian at a different time depth, 47 of course, and that's a whole different problem in 11524 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Ms. Mandell 1 terms of linguistic chronology of North America. And 2 some people don't buy the Penutian hypothesis, and the 3 very conservative view is that Tsimshian -- the four 4 Tsimshianic languages here in British Columbia are 5 just their own and they are not related to anybody 6 else. That's the conservative view on that 7 hypothesis, your lordship. 8 THE COURT: What is the Penutian hypothesis, that there is a 9 connection between the North Coast Tsimshians and the 10 ones in Washington, Oregon? 11 THE WITNESS: And California. To answer that in detail, I would 12 have to name maybe 20 or 25 languages that are -- have 13 been grouped there. But that's a very deep genetic 14 affiliation that could, say, be in dispute and not -- 15 and not scientifically accepted. In fact, it is in 16 dispute and scholars take liberal versus conservative 17 views on -- you know, whether that's been 18 demonstrated. 19 If Tsimshian is related to Sahaptin, for example, 20 it's -- you know, it -- you know, you really have to 21 look at eight and 10,000 year types of time depths. 22 And then the other linguists would say, "Well, at that 23 part -- that time back we can't prove the case. It's 24 too old, too deep and these could easily be explained 25 by diffusions and borrowings and not common genetic 26 ancestries." So that's sort of the nature of the 27 debate. 28 But when we talk about Athabaskan and Babine and 29 Wet'suwet'en being Athabaskan and being related to 30 Ahtna, it's such a more homogeneous, straightforward 31 level that there is no dispute in any way about the 32 membership of the Athabaskan language family compared 33 to this kind of debate in Penutian. 34 THE COURT: What about Nisgha? 35 THE WITNESS: Nisgha is part of the Tsimshianic group and 36 Rigsby's part of the report gives a good summary of 37 Nisgha as opposed to Gitksan, and it is -- it looks 38 like those two languages are really very close. And I 39 think it is useful for your own thinking on this in 40 your regional materials that Nisgha and Gitksan are 41 much closer to each other than Babine, Wet'suwet'en 42 and Carrier are to each other. That's -- we can say 43 that with quite a bit of confidence in terms of degree 44 of intelligibilty, or if you did a Nisgha, Gitksan 45 contrasting check list -- and Bruce actually has done 46 some of that right here in the report -- they aren't 47 too extensively different from each other. 11525 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Ms. Mandell 1 THE COURT: All right. Then Nisgha do not speak an Athabaskan 2 language? 3 THE WITNESS: No. That's a Tsimshianic language, your lordship. 4 THE COURT: All right. And Haida is not Athabaskan either? 5 THE WITNESS: Well, if you talk to a few extreme lumpers in 6 language classification, they want Haida related to 7 Tlingit and Athabaskan. We have a colleague in 8 Germany who has been nuturing that hypothesis 9 throughout his career, and Greenberg's new book "The 10 Language in the Americas", has a whole chapter on 11 Haida.