11521 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Ms. Mandell

1 VANCOUVER, B.C. 2 February 7, 1989 3 4 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. In the Supreme Court of British 5 Columbia, Vancouver, this Tuesday, February 7, 1989, 6 calling Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen at 7 bar. And I caution the witness, you are still under 8 oath. 9 JAMES KARI: Previously sworn 10 11 THE COURT: Miss Mandell. 12 MS. MANDELL: 13 Q Thank you. My lord, if I could begin this morning by 14 having your lordship and the witness turn to page 67 15 of tab 2. 16 Having reviewed the loanwords between the Gitksan 17 and the Wet'suwet'en, the report presented by yourself 18 and Dr. Rigsby summarizes the evidence. And if I 19 could turn you to the first full paragraph of the page 20 67: 21 22 "To begin to sum up, the phonological evidence 23 indicates that it was Gitksan which exercised a 24 conservative influence on Wet'suwet'en and blocked 25 the diversion westward of --" 26 27 A Diffusion. 28 Q "Diffusion westward," sorry. 29 30 "-- of the palatal-to-alveopalatal sound shift. 31 There is no evidence that Wet'suwet'en influenced 32 any of the sound changes that can be observed in 33 process or completed in Gitksan." 34 35 And is that the opinion of yourself, Dr. Rigsby, or 36 both? 37 A Both. 38 Q 39 "The vocabulary evidence clearly shows that 40 Gitksan borrowed many fewer words from 41 Wet'suwet'en than the latter did from the former, 42 and the Athabaskan loans for animals into Gitksan 43 (and Nisgha) may be reasonably interpreted as 44 evidence for the arrival of Gitksan (and Nisgha) 45 speech in the upriver Interior areas after 46 Athabaskan speech was already established there." 47 11522 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Ms. Mandell

1 A Yes, that's a safe assumption. But the -- there 2 are -- we would change that statement about the 3 disproportion of loans or the much fewer known loans 4 of Athabaskan and Gitksan because more have turned up 5 more recently. But it doesn't affect the larger, in 6 my opinion. That's if the corpus were brought up 7 to -- completely up to date. 8 Q All right. 9 10 "The Tsimshianic loanwords for plants and animals 11 into Wet'suwet'en reflect the middleman position 12 of the Tsimshianic-speaking peoples in the 13 regional trading system, as well as their 14 mediating role in introducing the Wet'suwet'en to 15 coastal species." 16 17 A Yes. 18 Q And is that your opinion? 19 A Oh, certainly. That's the herring eggs and oolichan, 20 those types of -- and seal and those types of words 21 that we are referring to go. 22 Q All right. 23 24 "The Tsimshianic loanwords pertaining to features 25 of social organization and items of material 26 culture are consistent with the view that the 27 Wet'suwet'en have adapted their social 28 organization and expanded their technilogical 29 inventory more than the Gitksan have. In 30 particular, the Wet'suwet'en adapted the feast 31 complex from the Gitksan, as evidenced in 32 loanwords. And the borrowing of the Gitksan 33 voca --" 34 35 A Vocative. 36 Q 37 "-- vocative form of father indicates that it was 38 common in the past for Gitksan men to marry 3 9 Wet'suwet'en women." 40 41 A Yeah. That's Sbep, S-B-E with an accent -P. 42 THE COURT: What does that mean? That kind of a marriage, is 43 that what that word means? 44 THE WITNESS: Well, if the Athabaskan speakers are using a non- 45 Athabaskan word for "father", it's pretty interesting. 46 They have in other languages, an old Athabaskan word 47 for "father" that they somehow dropped out and 11523 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Ms. Mandell

1 replaced. 2 THE COURT: That word that you've given me -- 3 THE WITNESS Sbep seems to be -- 4 THE COURT: -- means father? 5 THE WITNESS It means father in Wet'suwet'en but it seems to be 6 a Tsimshianic based word for father. 7 MS. MANDELL: 8 Q All right You say: 9 10 "Thus, the linguistic evidence points to long and 11 intimate contact between the Gitksan and 12 Wet'suwet'en." 13 14 Do you accept that opinion? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Now, before we get into the chiefs' names and the 17 place names, I would ask you if you could now turn to 18 tab 5, page 24. 19 THE COURT: I wonder if I could ask just before you do that, 20 Miss Mandell. I take it your evidence is that the 21 Gitksan are not Athabaskan, or are they? 22 THE WITNESS: No. The Gitksan language is a Tsimshianic 23 language as is laid out also in a Rigsby-Kari 1986, 24 with -- no, it's not at all classifiable as an 25 Athabaskan language. 26 THE COURT: And Tsimshianic is not, similarly, classifiable as 27 an Athabaskan language? 28 THE WITNESS: No. The Tsimshian has been postulated to be 29 related to languages down in Oregon and Washington and 30 in Central California, but -- 31 THE COURT: But different areas from the ones you described 32 yesterday? 33 THE WITNESS: Yeah, yeah. That's the Penutian hypothesis, 34 P-E-N-U-T-I-A-N. 35 THE COURT: Sorry, P-E-N-U-T? 36 THE WITNESS: I-A-N. And this map does show the colouring of 37 the Penutian hypothesis by the Suttles map, this 38 orangish tint and this orangish tint here are what are 39 hypothesized as Penutian languages. So Tsimshian, and 40 if it's a Penutian language, is isolated from those 41 other groups by quite a distance. That would be 42 languages like around Warm Springs, Oregon, and 43 Yakima, Washington. That's called the Sahaptin 44 language and the Nez Perce language. Those are -- 45 actually, there are some interesting links with those 46 languages and the Tsimshian at a different time depth, 47 of course, and that's a whole different problem in 11524 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Ms. Mandell

1 terms of linguistic chronology of North America. And 2 some people don't buy the Penutian hypothesis, and the 3 very conservative view is that Tsimshian -- the four 4 Tsimshianic languages here in British Columbia are 5 just their own and they are not related to anybody 6 else. That's the conservative view on that 7 hypothesis, your lordship. 8 THE COURT: What is the Penutian hypothesis, that there is a 9 connection between the North Coast Tsimshians and the 10 ones in Washington, Oregon? 11 THE WITNESS: And California. To answer that in detail, I would 12 have to name maybe 20 or 25 languages that are -- have 13 been grouped there. But that's a very deep genetic 14 affiliation that could, say, be in dispute and not -- 15 and not scientifically accepted. In fact, it is in 16 dispute and scholars take liberal versus conservative 17 views on -- you know, whether that's been 18 demonstrated. 19 If Tsimshian is related to Sahaptin, for example, 20 it's -- you know, it -- you know, you really have to 21 look at eight and 10,000 year types of time depths. 22 And then the other linguists would say, "Well, at that 23 part -- that time back we can't prove the case. It's 24 too old, too deep and these could easily be explained 25 by diffusions and borrowings and not common genetic 26 ancestries." So that's sort of the nature of the 27 debate. 28 But when we talk about Athabaskan and Babine and 29 Wet'suwet'en being Athabaskan and being related to 30 Ahtna, it's such a more homogeneous, straightforward 31 level that there is no dispute in any way about the 32 membership of the Athabaskan language family compared 33 to this kind of debate in Penutian. 34 THE COURT: What about Nisgha? 35 THE WITNESS: Nisgha is part of the Tsimshianic group and 36 Rigsby's part of the report gives a good summary of 37 Nisgha as opposed to Gitksan, and it is -- it looks 38 like those two languages are really very close. And I 39 think it is useful for your own thinking on this in 40 your regional materials that Nisgha and Gitksan are 41 much closer to each other than Babine, Wet'suwet'en 42 and Carrier are to each other. That's -- we can say 43 that with quite a bit of confidence in terms of degree 44 of intelligibilty, or if you did a Nisgha, Gitksan 45 contrasting check list -- and Bruce actually has done 46 some of that right here in the report -- they aren't 47 too extensively different from each other. 11525 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Ms. Mandell

1 THE COURT: All right. Then Nisgha do not speak an Athabaskan 2 language? 3 THE WITNESS: No. That's a Tsimshianic language, your lordship. 4 THE COURT: All right. And Haida is not Athabaskan either? 5 THE WITNESS: Well, if you talk to a few extreme lumpers in 6 language classification, they want Haida related to 7 Tlingit and Athabaskan. We have a colleague in 8 Germany who has been nuturing that hypothesis 9 throughout his career, and Greenberg's new book "The 10 Language in the Americas", has a whole chapter on 11 Haida. 12 THE COURT: That's not universally accepted either? 13 THE WITNESS: Well, Krauss who — he knows the data better than 14 Greenberg or any of these other folks -- doesn't 15 accept Haida as being related to Tlingit, but Sapir 16 did back in 1915. It's exciting and it -- they are -- 17 you know, we -- you know, new evidence may change the 18 view, but Haida doesn't look as structurally similar 19 to Tlingit as people first thought it was, and the 20 amount of vocabulary like Gex in the Queen Charlotte 21 Islands for Rabbit, that's G-E-X, and T'a for feather, 22 I mean T-'A, and sure those words aren't Athabaskan, 23 but you have such a small list of those that those 24 could just be borrowings across the sound over 25 thousands of years through some kind of trade or 26 occasional intermarriage. 27 THE COURT: Tlingit is Athabaskan? 28 THE WITNESS: Tlingit is Na-Dene, and we really — that's what I 29 started to preface my talk with yesterday, was the 30 Na-Dene hypothesis safely includes Tlingit. If I drew 31 a tree structure like this on a piece of paper and 32 hold it up, you would see -- it would be something 33 like this: We would see all the Athabaskan languages 34 being in one branch and rather close to each other. 35 Eyak has to be accounted for by some very distant 36 branching of a small group that remained isolated for 37 as much as 3500 years Krauss estimates. Eyak being 38 that language of the Copper River Delta. And then 39 Tlingit, which is the language of the southeastern 40 Alaska archipelago, there is very, very distant 41 earlier relation than that. So when we talk about 42 proto-Na-Dene, we then would want to look at the 43 earliest archaeological remains in the northwest coast 44 or in the interior, and model from that. Because it 45 would go back to very early point of unity because 46 Tlingit has got very little vocabulary compared to 47 Athabaskan, and yet the grammar is just so subtle and 11526 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Ms. Mandell

1 the same that, you know, they keep the most intimate 2 points in the grammar and it recycled the vocabulary. 3 So that account -- that requires a very 4 interesting prehistoric modelling. We think there may 5 have been ancient creolization of several languages, 6 for example, on the northwest coast, things like that. 7 THE COURT: What would you say is the connection, if any, 8 between Tlingit and Haida? 9 THE WITNESS: Well, that their close proximity to each other and 10 have every means of having had contact, and apparently 11 warfare, shifts of territory, and lots of ways that 12 they can exchange words, and they are neighbours which 13 have -- the term is "Diffusional Accumulation". Their 14 vocabularies accumulate diffusions over time. 15 THE COURT: Where is the area that you ascribed to the Tlingit? 16 THE WITNESS: Tlingit are in the brown on this map. 17 MS. MANDELL: That's referring to the Krauss map. 18 THE WITNESS: In the Krauss map, the brown here. And in this 19 map, it's perhaps a bit out of view, it's in this more 20 of a purple tint here. 21 MS. MANDELL: Referring to the Suttles map 22 THE WITNESS: But for Canada, Tlingit is a Canadian language in 23 that there is an Inland Tlingit group in the northern 24 tip of B.C. and Atlin, B.C., and in Teslin. And my 25 colleagues are doing a lot of work with that Inland 26 Tlingit, and the Athabaskan borrowings in the Tlingit 27 and vice versa, Tlingit borrowings and the Athabaskan 28 borrowings into Tlingit and vice versa. And similar 29 problem to what Rigsby and I are addressing here, and 30 there is some good work going on in that Inland 31 Tlingit versus Coastal Tlingit. 32 THE COURT: Lastly, before I let Miss Mandell have her case 33 back, what connection would you ascribe, if any, 34 between Tlingit and Athabaskan? 35 THE WITNESS: There are -- we have to look at some scenario of 36 either Athabaskans moving up a couple of river 37 drainages very early and being from the coast and 38 being in this general region for -- then for, say, a 39 long, long time. Or the reverse, that this area was 40 unpopulated and perhaps due to glaciation, and very 41 early you had an Eyak isolated group and a Tlingit 42 group from somewhere up in this area coming down to 43 the archipelago and fanning out about the archipelago. 44 But the thing about Tlingit that's quite striking 45 to people is how homogeneous it is in terms of dialect 46 diversity, and you wonder about that because those 47 islands, that's a complicated geographical 11527 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Ms. Mandell

1 environment, and usually in island settings languages 2 get -- develop diversification. And Tlingit has an 3 unusual social structure and linguistic history which 4 is -- the interplay of the complex island archipelago 5 and a very homogeneous Tlingit language make for some 6 interesting problems in prehistory. 7 THE COURT: And you classify Tlingit as Athabaskan? 8 THE WITNESS: Na-Dene is the term for that time depth. 9 THE COURT: All right, thank you. Sorry, Miss Mandell. 10 MS. MANDELL: Thank you. I'm glad for the interruption. 11 I wanted just to ask you about this point in 12 concluding the area of borrowing, and ask you whether 13 there is significance to it. It's found at tab 5 and 14 it's at page 24, it's the last paragraph there. 15 THE COURT: On page 24? 16 MS. MANDELL: Yes. 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. We — 18 MS. MANDELL: Just a moment. 19 THE WITNESS: Just — 2 0 MS. MANDELL: 21 Q The paragraph is talking about multilingual 22 sophistication, and there is there the term for 23 "blood" and for "red" and "to burn" is there being 24 described by you. Could you explain, first of all, 25 what your observation is with respect to the term 26 "blood", "red" and "be burning"? 27 A Well, first of all Babine, Wet'suwet'en and Carrier 28 have what appear to be innovations for these terms, 29 whereas Sekani has the old Athabaskan term. And "dal" 30 is usually red and blood, you know, it's -- in a lot 31 of Athabaskan languages it's the same "rr" (ph) for 32 red and the colour blood, and that's all over -- 33 that's what you would say is the proto-Athabaskan "rr" 34 for red and blood. And then you look at Babine, 35 Wet'suwet'en and Carrier and they seem to have coined 36 new words. And we can't etymologize new words, but 37 it's interesting. 38 And then we were working this summer with some 39 people who speak five languages, by the way, counting 40 English, but five native languages, and one man 41 observes, "Hey, you know what 'dal' means in Gitksan? 42 That means fight or warfare." And so it occurred to 43 me that if you have heard of the term tabooistic 44 replacement, tabooistic replacement in a bilingual 45 setting, the Athabaskan speaking in Gitksan may not 46 want to offend them and say the Athabaskan word for 47 red, blood, "dal", so that might be an impetus for 1152? J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Ms. Mandell

1 them to innovate these new words. Or -- and then I 2 end with a question -- the other way around, is did 3 the Gitksan borrow the Athabaskan word for blood and 4 extend the meaning to warfare? 5 Q And is there any further significance you would draw 6 from these multilingual sophisticated replacements 7 that you've just spoken about over and above what 8 we've already looked at in the report at page 67? 9 A Well, it's just that people have spoken several 10 languages in this area for, you know, I -- I wouldn't 11 you know, I wouldn't think, you know, over the long 12 term, you know -- you know, deeply into the aboriginal 13 period. And interesting cases of borrowing and 14 diffusion and vocabulary avoidance take on different 15 possibilities when -- and, you know, I basically don't 16 know too much Gitksan vocabulary, but we have found 17 more things of this nature that indicate possibilities 18 of an antonymy process like opposite borrowings and 19 things like that. I mean quite interesting 20 sophisticated things. It's not just, "Oh, they 21 borrowed the caribou word," and, you know, that's 22 that. There are other dimensions to being neighbours 23 and speaking different languages. 24 Q All right. Could I ask you now to turn to tab 3, and 25 I'm going to draw your attention to Appendix H, the 26 one that we've been working with, with respect to the 27 borrowing of the words, at page 27. Sorry, page 28. 28 Sorry, it was at the bottom of page 27, I'm sorry. 29 I'm talking about the category that you've identified 30 under number seven. These are the clan names of the 31 Wet'suwet'en, and I wonder whether you could identify 32 for us in the list that you've provided, whether the 33 clan names in sequence are Athabaskan words or whether 34 they are borrowed words or whether they are blends? 35 A Yes. I am off on the page here, because I -- 36 Q If you could start with Laxts'aamisyu? 37 A Laxts'aamisyu. Yeah, Laxts'aamisyu, the "yu" suffix 38 at the end is definitely proto-Athabaskan for people, 39 and the -- the first syllable, "Lax" is in Gitksan, 40 and the median element, Bruce says is canonically 41 looks like Gitksan in structure. It's not 42 tranparently translatable, it looks like what we would 43 call a blend. A blend. Ancient blend of both 44 languages. 45 Q All right. 46 A Tsaayu is all Athabaskan, it's "Beaver People", that's 47 proto-Athabaskan for beaver, proto-Athabaskan for 11529 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Ms. Mandell

1 people. 2 Gelts'eexyu is the frog phratry. We, more 3 recently, have an etymology that makes this look all 4 Athabaskan. "Gelts'eex" is -- does refer to sinew, 5 and "yu" is the Athabaskan word for people. So that 6 one as well as beaver, I would classify not as a blend 7 but as all Athabaskan. 8 Gidemt'een is a blend in that it is quite unusual 9 looking from the Athabaskan point of view to have this 10 syllables, "Gedem", and Bruce has a -- has a theory of 11 a man-attributive for that. "t'een" is Athabaskan, as 12 I say here, owners of an area. So Gedemt'een is a 13 blend. It is a blend. 14 Lexgebuu for the wolf phratry is a straight loan. 15 That's a borrowing from Gitksan. 16 And Laxseelyu is a blend, because the "yu" is 17 people, it's the Athabaskan word for people, and the 18 "Laxseel" is a borrowing from Gitksan. 19 Q Thank you. 20 A So it's a complex set of words. 21 Q And have you, in the course of the preparation of your 22 work and in the stem list that you've developed and in 23 interviews with others, had identified for you the 24 house names? 25 A Yes. There are about 13 of them, aren't they? 26 Q And what is your opinion regarding the Athabaskan or 27 Tsimshianic origin of the house names? 28 A They are all Wet'suwet'en with the one exception. I 29 don't have them in front of me, but there is one of 30 the house names that is a Gitksan origin word which is 31 not transparent either to Gitksan speakers or 32 Wet'suwet'en speakers, it's an old word. And all the 33 rest are straightforward Athabaskan words that are not 34 blends either. 35 Q All right. 36 A I could mention some of them but they are real easy to 37 etymologize -- etymologiable as Athabaskan. 38 Q All right. If you could now deal with place names and 39 turn you to page 66 of tab 2, and I'm reading from the 40 first sentence of the first full paragraph of the 41 page: 42 43 "We found just a few Wet'suwet'en place 44 names that are of Gitksan origin, and they are 45 near the present boundary with the Gitksan. 46 Otherwise, the Wet'suwet'en maintain the elaborate 47 and referentially precise directional and 11530 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Ms. Mandell

1 locational topographic and topynymic --" 2 3 A Topynymic. 4 Q 5 "-- topynymic system that is their Athabaskan 6 inheritance." 7 8 And is that your opinion? 9 A Yes. 10 Q If I could turn you to the appendix dealing with place 11 names which is at tab 3 and it's Appendix G. Perhaps 12 I could assist you. 13 THE COURT: Does it have a page number? 14 MS. MANDELL: Well, it's marked as Appendix G, my lord, there is 15 no page number to it. It's approximately half-way 16 through the tab 3. It's -- unfortunately, it's in 17 alphabetical order. 18 THE COURT: Well, these pages are numbered, the bottom. Am I in 19 the right tab? 2 0 MS. MANDELL: You must not be. 21 THE COURT: No, sorry. 22 MS. MANDELL: This is tab 3. 23 THE COURT: Yes, I'm in the wrong tab. I have — I have 24 something at the top says G, but that's children. 25 MS. MANDELL: It should be "Toponomy and Territory in 26 Northwestern Carrier." 27 THE COURT: I'm getting close. All right, I have it, thank you. 2 8 MS. MANDELL: 2 9 Q Thank you. 30 If you could, before going into the appendix, ask 31 you whether or not you could advise -- first of all, 32 could you advise the court as to the -- as to your 33 exposure to Wet'suwet'en place names in the course of 34 your work? 35 A Yeah. Well, I, in 1986, helped several people with 36 some proof-reading and filing, but only had a certain 37 number of them. I took notes myself in my notebook 38 and then others, they went on and continued to do, and 39 some had -- they had done prior to my work. So I 40 think there are about 700 or so recorded Wet'suwet'en 41 place names nowadays and I've seen, oh, maybe half of 42 them. But I've never been in any of the country or 43 territories, I don't know much about -- how they would 44 be mapped or the look. I mean I haven't travelled 45 much -- I haven't done any in the -- you know, 46 research on the names in the area myself as far as 47 associated with that kind of research with chief 11531 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Ms. Mandell

1 territories or anything. I've just looked at the 2 names linguistically. 3 Q And have many of those names been put into your stem 4 list? 5 A Yes, quite a few. But not -- not exhaustively either. 6 Q And I'm asking you to look at some of the territorial 7 affidavits which have been marked as exhibits in these 8 proceedings, and I would like you to identify whether 9 you've looked at the place names that appear in the 10 affidavits of these people as indicated in the 11 exhibit? 12 A Yeah, I did review them. 13 Q If I could, the first one is Madeline Alfred which is 14 Exhibit 120-A in these proceedings. Did you review 15 her affidavit for a look at the place names? 16 A Yes. Not too many there, really. Some of them have 17 one or two names. 18 Q Lucy Bazil, which is Exhibit 99-D in these 19 proceedings? 20 A I didn't even see one there. 21 Q Do you recall looking at this? 22 A There is a few in there when I did leaf through the 23 binder, I saw some place names. 24 Q All right. Maybe if you could refresh yourself. When 25 you looked through this affidavit and these place 2 6 names -- 27 A Oh, beautiful, yeah. Actually, I hadn't seen those 28 pages but I can tell they are Athabaskan right now. 29 Q Okay. 30 A I can tell. I mean I recognize the generic system in 31 the name. I mean I could be more specific, but -- 32 Q I just wanted to identify which of these affidavits 33 you've had a look at so the court knows? 34 A Actually, I didn't know you were supposed to pull them 35 out like that, I thought you just read the -- 36 Q These are the same affidavits that you looked at 37 yesterday? 38 A I didn't know to handle -- I didn't -- yeah, I guess I 39 didn't see the full -- excuse me, I thought you just 40 meant the facing page, so -- but yeah, I can read 41 these off, Nenliikwe and Dzelteel and so forth that 42 are Athabaskan in structure. 43 THE COURT: The reporter can't take that down. 44 MS. MANDELL: 45 Q There'll need to be a spelling of those two words 46 you've referred to. 47 A Okay. N-E-N-L-I-I-K-W-E and D-Z-E-underline 11532 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Ms. Mandell

1 L-T-E-E-L. But, for example, yes, I mean I don't know 2 all the names associated with your research on the 3 territories, but I had seen a lot of the names from 4 the corpus and I can etymologize them and analyse the 5 structure of the names, usually morpheme from 6 morpheme. 7 Q All right. I'll have you review this volume at the 8 break and see if it's the affidavits which you have 9 reviewed, and if not, then we'll leave it at that. 10 And otherwise, I'll leave this now for a time after 11 the break, that is the identifying of the affidavits, 12 and I'll just -- 13 A I guess I didn't understand how to handle the 14 notebook. 15 Q I'll just ask you to turn to Appendix G? 16 A Yes. 17 Q You say here that: 18 19 "The Northwestern Carrier place names are 20 associated with the territories of the chiefs and 21 have been collected through interviews and visits 22 to these areas." 23 24 And are those the interviews and visits to the area 25 which you -- you are referring to that you did there? 26 A No, I did not do interviews and visits to the areas. 27 I just said that they have been collected in such a 2 8 way, from my understanding. 29 Q All right. So this is your assumption that they've 30 been collected through interviews and visits? 31 A Right. 32 MR. WILLMS: My lord, I think in light of that, if my friend is 33 going to proceed any further with this -- I had 34 assumed that it was the witness -- that we should find 35 out who did this so we know what we are talking about. 3 6 THE COURT: Yes. 37 MS. MANDELL: 38 Q Well, I would like -- perhaps the easiest thing to do 39 is to here ask you how you know that the place names 40 were collected through interviews and visits to the 41 area? 42 A Well, when I worked in Hazelton on place names, I was 43 proof-reading names these other folks had collected, 44 you know, over many years. And so I, you know, just 45 was there, you know, for a short time and worked on 46 that phase of it. I didn't collect them personally, 47 I -- you know, and I don't know the country or, you 11533 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Ms. Mandell

1 know, which chiefs' territory they are in, I just 2 don't have that. My own research -- I have not 3 researched that aspect, I have -- but I can analyse 4 and speak to the etymologies of the names of it that 5 I've seen, and I can make generalizations about the 6 statistical patterning of the structure of the place 7 names that I've seen. 8 Q All right. And were the names that were presented to 9 you as place names, did you include those names in 10 your stem list? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And — 13 MR. WILLMS: My lord, I rise again because that still doesn't 14 answer whether the witness knows where they come from. 15 Are they just a file of documents that he found in the 16 room or did someone give them to him? Where did he 17 get this information? 18 THE WITNESS: Well, these were specifically with the team that's 19 researching them. I could name the individuals. Do 20 you want me to name them? Alfred Joseph, Doug Tait, 21 Marvin George and that man from Smithers, is it 22 Leonard George? Is that his name? Older man -- 23 Leonard George? Leonard George, yes. Now, I was 24 working with the researchers on their material not 25 with the elders whom -- 26 MS. MANDELL: All right. Does that answer your question? 27 THE COURT: What did they supply you with, a list of names for 28 your opinion or for your study or what? 29 THE WITNESS: Well, we were working on several things including 30 proof-reading the names and some help with mapping and 31 a numbering system that they've been developing, and I 32 don't have all their material in any way, but I am an 33 expert in the ethnogeographic field methods and how to 34 check for gaps in a corpus or how to generate names 35 from a -- on a stream system, "Did you check the river 36 mouth, river headwaters," various things which do 37 contribute to the study of place names. I'm -- 38 it's -- I have a lot of skill in -- in this area and 39 analysis of place names, the generic system. 4 0 THE COURT: But at the moment we are merely trying to find out 41 what happened. 42 MS. MANDELL: 43 Q This is -- the question -- because you didn't yourself 44 go out and collect these place names -- 45 A Yes. 46 Q -- the objection has been raised as to how you came to 47 see the names which you then formed an opinion about, 11534 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Ms. Mandell

1 and you've mentioned that Alfred and Doug and -- 2 Alfred Joseph, Doug Tait, Marvin George and Leonard 3 George were the researchers who exposed you to the 4 names? 5 A Yeah. 6 Q And could you advise us what was the method that they 7 used to expose you to the names that they did? 8 A Well, they have various maps that they, you know, 9 wrote names on and, you know, was proof-reading the 10 names. 11 Q And did you independently take notes of the names as 12 they were exposed to you? 13 A Yes. If you look at my notes from that period that I 14 submitted to you, there are a lot of place names in 15 them. And I can speak to Appendix G and its 16 significance about the Wet'suwet'en place names, 17 that's, you know, what I can -- 18 THE COURT: Well, is it anymore than this, that you can say that 19 these words which you have been given and which you 20 understand are place names that have an Athabaskan 21 flavour to them? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. Unquestionably. 23 THE COURT: All right. 24 MS. MANDELL: There is a bit more to draw from that, my lord. 25 THE COURT: I'm sure there is, I am trying to get us down to 26 something -- 27 MS. MANDELL: That's true, it's the bottom line. 28 THE COURT: All right, go ahead. 2 9 MS. MANDELL: 30 Q And since your work with Alfred Joseph, Doug Tait, 31 Marvin George and Leonard George, have you had any 32 further exposure -- first of all, when was the work 33 done with those four researchers where you were 34 exposed to place names by them? 35 A I think that was December of '86. 36 Q All right. And since that time, have you had any 37 further exposure to Athabaskan-Babine-Wet'suwet'en 38 place names? 39 A Yes. In our 1988 survey we collected some in other 40 areas. 41 Q And how did you go about collecting the place names in 42 the other areas in 1988? 43 A Oh, the usual ways. I incorporate them into field 44 sessions. The place names have interesting vocabulary 45 in them and we may be working on a vocabulary and 46 someone may say, "Oh yes, that's the name of a creek 47 over there, it's got that word in it," and write down 11535 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Ms. Mandell

1 another place name. That -- it wasn't done rigorously 2 or systematically in terms of a toponymic research 3 project. There are various place names on, say, in 4 Babine Lake and Takla Lake and different areas that 5 are sprinkled through our 1988 notes. 6 Q All right. And did that work in 1988, was it done by 7 direct interviews with informants? 8 A Yes, that was. 9 Q And in the work that you did, other than the work with 10 Alfred Joseph, Doug Tait, Marvin George and Leonard 11 George in Babine-Wet'suwet'en language, in 1986 and 12 prior to it, were you exposed to place names in the 13 interviews that you were doing with the informants? 14 A Yes. My earlier Hagwilget notes from '75 and '78, you 15 know, have a modest number of place names with Charlie 16 Austin, for example. 17 Q All right. And these were reflective in the field 18 notes that -- 19 A They are in the field notes. 20 Q -- that you gave? All right. You say at Appendix G, 21 22 "The names form a continuous fabric across the 23 territories, and there is very little evidence of 24 discrepancy among the names reported by the --" 25 26 It would now be the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en speakers. 27 Is this information which was told to you by the 28 researchers, that is that "the names form a continuous 29 fabric across the territories," or is that information 30 which you, yourself, were able to glean from your own 31 field work? 32 A Well, from seeing the size of the corpus which was 33 emerging there in 1986, I see a very high density of 34 place names in this area which I would say in 35 comparison to other areas where I've done place names 36 research in the north, so I've seen a high density of 37 names and I can make generalizations of density place 38 name structure and various things that I can do when I 39 analyze a place name corpus. 40 Q You say that: 41 42 "The names are strictly reported from memory and 43 are not taken from maps or written records. While 44 a few names in the Hagwilget area are borrowed 45 from Gitksan, further upstream virtually all the 46 names are Athabaskan in origin." 47 11536 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Ms. Mandell

1 And is this your opinion regarding the body of place 2 names that you were exposed to? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Now, could you explain what it is that you are setting 5 out about the place names in the chart which you say 6 summarizes the structural patterns of the place names 7 in points 1 and 2? 8 A Well, this is -- would be the same thing you would do 9 in English if you had a chart of words like mountain 10 and hill and river and creek, they would appear in our 11 place names, that's the generic term in the place 12 name, and so they say Mesdzii Kwe, that's Owl Creek, 13 and "Kwe" is the generic, that is M-E-S-D-Z-I-I, 14 Q-W-E. (sic) 15 And -- so the generic system turns up, you know, 16 without -- I mean these are patterned throughout, the 17 place names, corpus, they definitely are all 18 Athabaskan morphemes here with wide-ranging cognates. 19 So what you see, basically, in the topynymic structure 20 in the Babine-Wet'suwet'en place names is very similar 21 to what you find in a language like Ahtna in Alaska. 22 In fact, in this chart there is only one disparity 23 between what the Ahtna chart would look like and the 24 Babine-Wet'suwet'en chart would look like, and that's 25 in the term for stream. All the others are found in 26 Ahtna as well in Alaska if you were looking at their 27 place names, and I have recorded about 1400 Ahtna 28 place names in a 30,000 square mile area. 29 Q All right. At page 2 of the appendices, the first 30 paragraph, full paragraph, you say: 31 32 "Generally speaking, the Northwest Carrier 33 or Babine-Wet'suwet'en place names system 34 emphasizes linear features, streams and ridge 35 lines, rather than minor landforms and man-made 36 features. All major streams are named, headwaters 37 and stream mouths derive from the basic name. A 38 stream name never changes in mid-course. There is 39 a minimum of detail for the extreme high country." 40 41 You mention that glaciers are commonly not named, and 42 then there is a very low incidence of repetition in 43 the names, Babine-Wet'suwet'en or Northwest Carrier. 44 45 "Thus we can recognize principles of economy and 46 memorizability in the typical Northern Athabaskan 47 place names which make the system well suited for 11537 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Ms. Mandell

1 long distance overland travel." 2 3 Now, if you could explain with respect -- first of 4 all, is that the opinion that you formed with respect 5 to an analysis of the place names? 6 A Yeah. I could amplify or bring in other points too. 7 That's not the final word on this kind of analysis. 8 Q What else would you then add? 9 A Well, other things are interesting that, you know, 10 there are more high country names than I realized, 11 apparently, and I am struck by that, not knowing that 12 country personally, I don't know, you know, the exact 13 areas to -- what they look like. I haven't been 14 there, right. But there is a term, "bit", to which 15 there is an elevated basin in a mountain area, B-I-T, 16 and that's an Athabaskan stem which could be broken 17 into parts, but it means "in a place," but it's 18 something to do with an elevated basin in a mountain. 19 And no, I haven't seen that topynymic generic term 20 ever used in Alaska, and I have seen it used here in 21 their place names and that implies -- some of this is 22 implying a high aboriginal population -- a high 23 aboriginal population in a high density of place 24 naming in some areas, let's say, in the north would 25 not be named. So I haven't done a full analysis of 26 this, but there are some interesting things. 27 There is also the question of chief names and 28 place names that I -- is significant, that would not 29 be found up in Alaska. That's part of your local 30 pattern here. I -- I mention this here on the same 31 page -- well, the second page of Appendix G, I give a 32 few examples of -- of a -- of a Gitksan origin chief 33 name apparently, or maybe an Athabaskan origin chief 34 name too, Bedzel, his mountain, B-E-D-Z-E-L, and 35 Bedzel is Athabaskan for mountain. 36 Now, in the northern Athabaskan corpus -- and I 37 know four, 5,000 Athabaskan place names in Alaska and 38 I know them almost from memory because I know the 39 country better -- but they never name a person in 40 "something's mountain", a commemorative name like 41 Mount McKinley. You wouldn't name, in Athabaskan, a 42 place after a person, but they do in Wet'suwet'en 43 territory, but it's not statistically a big part. I 44 think I've only seen five or six, but that it's 45 interesting, it is interesting and it's something 46 interesting about this culture too. 47 Q All right. 1153? J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Ms. Mandell

1 THE COURT: Is Miss Mandell correct — I think she is — but 2 that I can read Babine-Wet'suwet'en for NWC? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes, BC 4 THE COURT: BC, yes, all right. Thank you. 5 MS. MANDELL: 6 Q Is it common among the Athabaskan place names that the 7 place name system emphasizes the linear features 8 rather than the minor landforms? Is this a common 9 Athabaskan place name characteristic? 10 A Well, there is some exciting issues. Navajo place 11 names come into this too, and we are kind of gearing 12 up for that one. But there are real interesting 13 issues, at least in northern Athabaskan that -- see, 14 I've mostly worked in areas with low population 15 density. You realize the Ahtna in 1885, in this whole 16 area there probably weren't more than 400 people out 17 there. You realize that, very low density. And so in 18 Babine-Wet'suwet'en they are talking -- I don't know 19 what a demographer would give you on that, but they 20 have said Carrier is -- they are quotes, the Carrier 21 had the highest aboriginal population density of any 22 northern Athabaskan group. That's in Tobey 1981, some 23 such quote, I think he mention 8,500 people. But if 24 Carrier is in fact two languages, and Bishop 1983 25 makes the point that the highest population density of 26 "Carrier" is the Bulkley River-Babine Lake, so most of 27 that 8,500 people are in Babine-Wet'suwet'en 28 territory. I think we are getting some interplay 29 between density of place names and high aboriginal 30 population and interesting ways that the naming system 31 does reflect that. 32 Q All right. My question still, though, I think if you 33 could just answer it if you can, is whether this 34 system emphasizing the linear features rather than 35 minor landforms is characteristic of -- 36 A Well, riverine I think is even better for your 37 purposes. The basic riverine nature of northern 38 Athabaskan pervades the vocabulary, the place names, 39 and I do present the riverine directionals on the 40 last -- on the third page of Appendix G, and those are 41 all the same as in Alaska. That's essentially proto- 42 Athabaskan riverine directional system unmodified in 43 this language. 44 Q I see. 45 A Upstream, downstream, toward the stream, from the 46 stream, downward, upward, ahead, off a distance, and 47 across, that's proto-Athabaskan, and we find those in 11539 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Ms. Mandell

1 quite a few languages, in other words. But Sarcee in 2 Alberta, just for example, they've lost the riverine 3 directional system. In Sarcee, way over in Alberta, 4 just for perspective, and Navajo has lost it too. 5 Q All right. I would like to turn you to another 6 problem of -- that you address in your opinion, and 7 it's found at page 53 of tab 2, and it's a problem 8 which you state at the bottom of the page, the second 9 to the last line: 10 11 "What is the best choice for a name for the 12 group?" 13 14 And you, in this paper, at page 54 of your opinion at 15 tab 2, settle upon the name Northwestern Carrier, and 16 that's identified at the last line of the first full 17 paragraph. And you later at tab 5, and if I could 18 turn you to that tab, particularly to page ten -- to 19 page 18, you address your mind to why the name, in 20 your view, ought to be described not as Northwestern 21 Carrier, but as Babine-Wet'suwet'en. And if I 22 could -- first of all, ask you to turn to table five 23 which is found beginning at page 13 towards the end of 24 the page? 25 A Actually, table four and table five are companion 26 pieces. So were you going to go to five first? 27 Q I was going to go to five first. 28 A Okay, yes. 29 Q This table, as I understand it, identifies the, 30 "Sources in which the Babine-Wet'suwet'en is treated 31 as a subtribe or a dialect of Carrier or is ignored 32 entirely." And I ask you, with reference to table 33 five, to explain why you have changed the name in your 34 own way of thinking about it, from Northwestern 35 Carrier to Babine-Wet'suwet'en? 36 A Well, for one thing, I think you may find these tables 37 useful in other levels in your case, because I tried 38 to have a fairly -- or as complete a listing of all 39 the sources on classifications of so-called Carrier as 40 it pertains to Babine and Wet'suwet'en in the 41 literature. And they were organized chronologically 42 and I -- I don't know how long you even want me to 43 spend on this? 44 Q I would just like you to address why you took the word 45 Carrier out of the name in describing that? 46 A Well first of all, I want to say my use of Babine and 47 Wet'suwet'en is not sanctioned by anybody other than 11540 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Ms. Mandell

1 my co-author and I. We are doing it provisionally and 2 we are doing it deliberately for several reasons, but 3 we are not naming the language that. We don't assume 4 to have that authority. But I have researched the 5 Carrier ethnonym problem and Carrier does turn out to 6 be a Sekani origin name for the Stewart Lake people, 7 and Morice has published that years and years ago, 8 actually, that's not news. But the Sekani called the 9 Stewart Lake people Carrier, and they didn't call the 10 Babine people the same way they call the Stewart Lake 11 people. And anyway, in a nutshell, the Sekani origin 12 name for Carrier got applied to the Stewart Lake 13 people and through folk usage in British Columbia 14 history for a hundred years or so, Babine-Wet'suwet'en 15 people have been called Carrier. 16 Morice has several strenuous objections in his -- 17 Morice 1925 is very interesting to read on this. It's 18 very interesting to read for anybody involved in this 19 case, Morice 1925, because he strenuously objects that 20 Babine are not Carrier and they are their own people. 21 It's a serious mistake for Jenness and Barbeau to 22 start calling these guys Carrier. And then you see 23 the anthropological community right then in the late 24 '20s with the publications of Jenness and Barbeau and 25 others, starting to subsume Babine-Wet'suwet'en as 26 Carrier. 27 Now, Morice's positions have vacilated in his 28 career, but he was sensitive to the distinct 29 differences of what he called Babine. 30 Q All right. 31 A But then in the modern context -- and we have had 32 workshops with people -- and it's not easy, I tell 33 you. You go in and you don't know these folks and you 34 want to work with the language and it's not easy. And 35 you know, what are you going to call the language? 36 We've had discussions in the community, and the 37 Carrier -- for example, when the Gitksan-Carrier 38 Council changed its name to Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en 39 Council, I mean that's -- that is sincere and an 40 attempt to redefine this in their own language. They 41 have their own name for themselves and for the name of 42 their council. 43 Q In the sources which you listed at tab 5, do you 44 identify that all of those sources incorrectly treated 45 the Babine-Wet'suwet'en as Carrier? 46 A In Table five? 47 Q Table five? 11541 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Ms. Mandell

1 A Yeah. These are classifications by anthropologists 2 and linguists where Babine is somehow called -- or BB 3 we'll say, is somehow called a dialect of Carrier, 4 these are all the sources I know of. 5 Q All right. And at page 16 of your paper you, at the 6 last paragraph, mention that the Athabaskans in 7 central British Columbia have been treated -- sorry, 8 I'11 read it: 9 10 "Before we leave the topic of ethnonyay, it 11 is appropriate to mention some of the ways 12 Athabaskans in central British Columbia have come 13 to be named by the Canadian bureaucracy." 14 15 And here you mention that Loring, who was an Indian 16 agent in 1891, 17 18 "-- at the Babine Agency in Hazelton used the 19 Gitksan-origin name for the Hagwilget people --" 20 21 And you've mentioned the name as it's written, 22 23 "-- to apply to all of the Babine-Wet'suwet'en- 24 Carrier peoples. In 1916 the term 'Hagwilget 25 Tribe' was used to apply to the Babine Lake and 26 Bulkley River peoples. At some later point the 27 term Carrier began to be applied in the manner of 28 the 1956 map by the British Columbia Provincial 29 Museum and the 1980 map by Energy, Mines, and 30 Resources Canada." 31 32 Q And I take it that both of those maps describe the 33 people as -- describe the Babine-Wet'suwet'en people 34 within a Carrier grouping? 35 A Yes. 36 Q And then you mention that the joint tribal council 37 that was originally formed in 1974 which was named the 38 Gitksan-Carrier Tribal Council, themselves initiated 39 their own name change in 1981 to the Gitksan- 40 Wet'suwet'en Tribal Council? 41 A Yeah. I may have those dates not exactly right, but 42 they did change their name sometime in that area. 43 Q All right. If I could now ask you with respect to the 44 overall opinions which you formed, to clarify and 45 comment upon three items which I think are remaining 46 outstanding. 47 When you yesterday were describing the borders, 11542 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Ms. Mandell

1 the linguistic borders of this language, Babine- 2 Wet'suwet'en, could you explain to the court what you, 3 as a linguistic, mean by a boundary or a border of a 4 language? 5 A Well, yeah. I have, you know, experience with this 6 through my Alaskan work and dialectology, and 7 especially our director is an expert in this genre in 8 terms of language mapping, and it's an Alaskan native 9 language map, and like he used to say, he tried to put 10 everything he knows on one piece of paper. But the -- 11 the situation of a language boundary in this area is 12 approximate, it's the notion that we are scoring here 13 for our purposes as a zone. We don't either know or 14 have tried to research these chief territories or 15 boundary overlaps or anything. We haven't researched 16 that, I don't know the issues, I don't know the 17 specific countries, the different chiefs, or know and 18 report on that sort of thing. But in terms of the 19 notion of the language boundary, we have a feel for 20 it, and at least as it is now in 1988-1989. And it's 21 complicated by multilingualism and intermarriage and 22 all these kinds of things. 23 So a zone -- there is a perimeter and it certainly 24 includes the Babine drainage and it certainly includes 25 the Bulkley River drainage, and through the place 26 names that are accumulated all the way out there in 27 the Ootsa Lake and those areas and that -- is that a 28 sort of a southerly direction there? I don't know the 29 local place names too well to refine this real well. 30 The structure of the place names, including the vowel 31 shifts and so forth that characterize the Babine- 32 Wet'suwet'en language that appear in those names, they 33 certainly give us a feel for a perimeter in that 34 direction. And I -- Takla Lake is a straightforward 35 case of being able to divide the lake on one side and 36 the other. The westerly side is clearly Babine- 37 Wet'suwet'en, and at least the other, depending on how 38 you want to call the Morribund-Sekani community, I 39 mean Sekani obviously touched Takla Lake and there 40 aren't too many Sekanis there now, but that's easily 41 reconstructable. 42 So I -- the one area that we haven't researched 43 and would be perhaps most contentious would be to try 44 to draw this central Carrier boundary to, say, meet 45 Francois Lake. And I don't claim to have any accuracy 46 for that at all, but there is a boundary there 47 somewhere, you know. So I -- I don't claim to have 11543 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Ms. Mandell

1 precision, and there may be overlapping views of this. 2 I don't intend to, you know, address those kinds of 3 things because I don't even know the facts. But we do 4 have a feel for a language area and the outer 5 perimeter of the language area and then there are 6 questions of, "Is that the aboriginal language area," 7 and notions of time depth within the language area too 8 that I can address. 9 Q I wonder if you could address the question about 10 whether or not this is the -- whether this is an old 11 language area, this territory occupied by the 12 ancestors of these people, with reference to whether 13 or not there is any linguistic evidence of any major 14 territory expanse in either the easterly or the 15 southerly direction from within this language 16 territory? 17 A Well, the one thing we know from our 1988 work is the 18 dialects. Dialectology is a pretty broad cross- 19 section of people from Takla Lake and Francois Lake 20 which we didn't know before, and so we look at Babine- 21 Wet'suwet'en as having four subdialects, and we think 22 of that -- I don't know that I went into this in much 23 detail yesterday, but there is a Bulkley River 24 dialect, essentially Hagwilget-Moricetown, and then a 25 Babine Lake dialect of Fort Babine, and what do they 26 call it, Old Fort and Topley Landing and Burns Lake 27 community that's from that area. 28 THE COURT: Sorry, Burns Lake a third or is that part of the — 29 A Well, the same folks have their agency in Burns Lake 30 but some of the Babine Lake people live in Burns Lake. 31 So that's the -- that's the Babine dialect. 32 And then we have a Takla dialect and then we have 33 had a Francois dialect, but I want to emphasize how 34 homogeneous the language is, and I have experience in 35 this in terms of relative diversity, relative 36 homogeneity in different Athabaskan languages. And so 37 we are looking at pretty subtle, minor features that 38 distinguishes these four dialects, and so that 39 suggests that there hasn't been -- for one thing, it 40 suggests stability in the language area, close 41 communication throughout the language area. There is 42 no such thing as a diverse dialect of Babine- 43 Wet'suwet'en that's cut off somewhere. At least from 44 what our present knowledge has shown, it's quite 45 homogeneous. 46 So I could begin to speculate on that sort of 47 thing in terms of high population density, homogeneity 11544 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Ms. Mandell

1 of dialects, and then Ahtna, low population of density 2 and still relatively homogeneous dialects but much 3 more diverse than what you've got in your situation 4 here. 5 Now, I do think the Ahtna, it's safe to say, have 6 been in their country for 2,000 years minimally, like 7 I made the statement yesterday, and that's very 8 conservative, very conservative, and there is no 9 evidence that the Ahtna ever took over their territory 10 from another people, or that they were anything but 11 the original inhabitants of the Copper River. So I 12 want to give you a feel for when I say a 2,000 year 13 date in your area, I am not just wildly, you know, 14 dropping numbers to -- the Ahtna seem to have relative 15 dialect homogeneity but a lot more diversity than you 16 have in Babine-Wet'suwet'en, and evidence of being in 17 situ 2,000 years ago. 18 Now, you go to the neighbour to the west, the 19 Dena'ina, their last 2,000 years is very different, 20 and you have to look at territorial movement and 21 expansion. And in fact, my 1988 paper that you 22 flagged yesterday, some linguistic insights into 23 Dena'ina prehistory is a model of three possible 24 migrations into different parts of Cook Inlet that 25 would put them in their territory. That is, we know 26 of it as in the historic period. 27 So I don't say everywhere that Athabaskans have 28 been there for two years and they haven't moved or 29 something. No, I have more finally grained notions of 30 Athabaskan prehistory and I do have a rather 31 interesting hypothesis of movements here, and there is 32 lots of evidence there of great diversity in that 33 language for very different dialects from each other, 34 and you've got to model it somehow as them having been 35 unified in much smaller area at one time and then 36 expanding territory. 37 So when I make a statement that Babine- 38 Wet'suwet'en has evidence of high population density 39 and long-term occupation of the territory, I am 40 looking especially at the homogeneity of the 41 dialectology that we had done in our 1988 survey as 42 the main indicator of that. And so I don't see that 43 they've recently, say, took over Ootsa Lake or 44 something like that. I wouldn't -- I would -- the 45 other point about the Francois Lake community that was 46 apparent to us when we met people from there, and we 47 worked with the oldest person there, Mary Skin, and -- 11545 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Ms. Mandell

1 and incidentally, of the four Babine-Wet'suwet'en 2 dialects that I just named, which is the most 3 conservative? Francois Lake. 4 Now that's very interesting, and some of those 5 folks are apparently from Ootsa Lake and moved those 6 reserves and, you know, there is some complexity 7 there. I think in terms of your notion of prehistory 8 in the area, that part of the Babine-Wet'suwet'en area 9 should be looked at in archaeological terms, in terms 10 of time depth in that area, and I don't think it's 11 been researched. But I noticed the reference in the 12 Albright report to -- is it Borden 1951 now? I've 13 never seen this reference -- this document, but this 14 is the kind of thing I would think is very important 15 for looking at Babine-Wet'suwet'en occupation, those 16 areas. Borden 1951, according to Albright, had 17 recorded 65 sites at Ootsa Lake, apparently, before 18 the dam raised the water level. 19 So, I do think it's important to get some 20 perspective on what might be underwater in those areas 21 as well as the movement of the Cheslatta people out of 22 their territory. I don't know the facts, but as a 23 linguist, I would say that it's possible that the 24 oldest occupation within Babine-Wet'suwet'en area 25 would be in an area that straddles both the Fraser and 26 Bulkley drainages. And what I say when I support that 27 is some significant pattern in Athabaskan movements, 28 when you model Athabaskan movements, is they -- the 29 point being, is they tend to move into headwater areas 30 first and then move downstream. 31 THE COURT: Should we adjourn for a few moments? 32 MS. MANDELL: Yes. 33 THE COURT: Thank you. Trend would be towards headwater, then? 34 THE WITNESS: They — there is a continental tendency for 35 Athabaskans to be in headwater areas longer than 36 they've been in downstream areas, and they tend to 37 move in downstream directions from upstream 38 directions. Another bit of supporting evidence is 39 there is an awful lot of Athabaskan groups called 40 Tatl'ahwt'aen, which means the "Headwaters People". 41 That's the -- incidentally, the name for Takla Lake, 42 but that is T-A-T-L-' -- which language am I writing 43 here? A — I said it in Alaskan — H-W-T-'-A-E-N. 44 That's Ahtna for the "Headwaters People". 45 THE COURT: Do I have it right that your evidence is that the 46 movements of these people tend to be from headwaters 47 downstream? 11546 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Ms. Mandell

1 THE WITNESS: Yes. That's in a very large continental 2 generalization. I'm not saying I've proven it here in 3 your area, but I would model -- I would think things 4 through like that if I was researching the area and 5 trying to co-ordinate with archaeologists and also 6 looking at old estates in the Babine-Wet'suwet'en 7 area, compared to things like up in the Yukon 8 territory and Alaska. Interesting issues in 9 Athabaskan prehistory. 10 THE COURT: All right, thank you. 11 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. Court will recess 12 13 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 11:15 a.m.) 14 15 I hereby certify the foregoing to be 16 a true and accurate transcript of 17 the proceedings herein transcribed to 18 the best of my skill and ability. 19 20 21 22 23 Toni Kerekes, 24 O.R., R.P.R. 25 United Reporting Service Ltd. 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 11547 Submissions In chief by Ms. Mandell

1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 11:30) 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. 4 THE COURT: Ms. Mandell. 5 MS. MANDELL: Thank you, my lord. I'm finished in the direct 6 examination of Dr. Kari, and I would like to at this 7 time seek to tender some of the remaining tabs as 8 exhibits. The first is tab 2, which is the report. 9 THE REGISTRAR: It will be 877. 10 THE COURT: 877? 11 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. 12 13 EXHIBIT 877-Tab 2 - Dr. Kari Report 14 15 THE COURT: Thank you. 16 MS. MANDELL: Tab — 17 THE COURT: Counsel will let me know if there's any objection on 18 these, I'm sure. 19 MR. WILLMS: Yes, my lord. 2 0 THE COURT: Thank you. 21 MS. MANDELL: Tab 3 of the appendices is a separate exhibit. 22 THE COURT: 878. 23 THE REGISTRAR: 878. 24 25 EXHIBIT 878-Tab 3 - Appendix to Report 26 27 MS. MANDELL: And the amendment to the appendix C, which is 28 found at tab 4 of that, can be given a separate 2 9 number. 3 0 THE COURT: 87 9. 31 THE REGISTRAR: 879. 32 33 EXHIBIT 879-Tab 4 - Appendix amendments 34 35 MS. MANDELL: And the unpublished draft paper which was 36 identified at tab 5. 37 THE COURT: 880. 38 39 EXHIBIT 880-Tab 5 - Unpublished paper, Dr. Kari- 40 1989 41 42 THE WITNESS: Excuse me, did that date get corrected on tab 5, 43 right-hand corner, it's 1989, not 1988. 44 MS. MANDELL: My lord, at tab 7, I've there indicated the 45 correspondence which gave rise to the blacked-out 46 sections which you will see at tab 2. These are 47 corrections in the introduction of tab 2 which my 1154? Submissions In chief by Ms. Mandell

1 friend sought that we made in order that Dr. Rigsby 2 could be called and -- not -- or Rigsby's evidence 3 could be presented without the necessity of having him 4 being called. I would like to mark the -- I would 5 like to mark the letters, although I think that 6 probably I'm in my friend's hands with respect to 7 Schedule A. There are corrections which are there and 8 have been suggested have been blacked out in the 9 report, and I don't know if my friend would see 10 prejudice to having the Schedule A as is. 11 THE COURT: I don't see Schedule A. 12 MS. MANDELL: It is Schedule A to the letter of Mr. Plant to Mr. 13 Grant of September 15th, and it -- 14 THE COURT: It's not marked Schedule A, is it? Is it the one 15 that starts from page 1? 16 MS. MANDELL: Yes. There's a letter of September 13th, which is 17 the first of the series. 18 THE COURT: All right. Well, is there any problem about the 19 letter of September 13th? 2 0 MS. MANDELL: No. 21 MR. WILLMS: My lord, I should just say, I don't know if there's 22 any problem with it. I don't know what the relevance 23 the correspondence deals with if you make these 24 changes to the report we will not require Rigsby's 25 attendance for cross-examination. My friend has made 26 the changes to the report and I really don't know 27 where marking these letters advances us. They're not 28 complete, in any event, the photocopies here aren't 2 9 complete. 30 MS. MANDELL: All right. Well, the point I really want in 31 evidence I think we have, and that is that Dr. 32 Rigsby's evidence is not being challenged. 33 MR. WILLMS: No, no, no. 34 MS. MANDELL: Challenged in the sense as he has to be called to 35 cross. 36 THE COURT: He's not being cross-examined on it. 37 MS. MANDELL: If that's my friend's position, which I understand 38 it is, I don't see any necessity of having to mark the 39 letters, so I ask that they be pulled from the volume. 4 0 THE COURT: All right. That's tab 6 — 41 MS. MANDELL: That's tab 7. 42 THE COURT: Sorry, yes, tab 7. All right, what about tab 8? 43 MS. MANDELL: Tab 8 has already been marked. 44 THE COURT: All right. And the Stem List is already in? 45 MS. MANDELL: That's right. 46 THE COURT: All right, thank you. 47 MS. MANDELL: Thank you. 11549 Submissions In chief by Ms. Mandell

1 THE COURT: Mr. Macaulay. 2 MR. MACAULAY: My lord, last month certain documents were 3 delivered to us that a claim of privilege was made in 4 regard to a number of the documents. This is 5 correspondence between this witness, Dr. Kari, and 6 members of the plaintiff's litigation team, 7 particularly Mr. Overstall, and could I hand up -- I'm 8 going to be referring to some of the correspondence, 9 and I have provided a copy of this little collection 10 to my friend. Can I hand up a few of the relevant 11 letters so that your lordship will follow the 12 submission I'm going to make. 13 THE COURT: Do you know of what I've received here, Miss 14 Mandell? 15 MS. MANDELL: Yes. 16 MR. MACAULAY: Yes. 17 THE COURT: Yes. 18 MR. MACAULAY: The first letter I refer to is a letter from Miss 19 Mandell to counsel for the defendants dated January 20 5th, 1989. Your lordship will notice that, amongst 21 others, item 5 on page 1 is a memorandum from Mr. 22 Overstall to others dated December 8th, 1986, and that 23 will be one of the documents that I will ask your 24 lordship to look at. And on the following page after 25 the -- after item number 9 there's the -- Miss Mandell 26 says: 27 28 "We will note the deletion in the letter from 29 Richard Overstall to Jim Kari, October 23rd, 1986. 30 We claimed privilege with respect to that 31 paragraph as it relates to the lawyer's brief and 32 the strategy of the trial." 33 34 Now, my lord, the next document in -- 35 THE COURT: You mean October 23rd, 1986 would be number 10 if it 36 were numbered. 37 MS. MANDELL: If it were numbered. 3 8 THE COURT: Yes. 39 MR. MACAULAY: A letter was provided for us, but the third 40 paragraph, that's the next item in the selection, your 41 lordship will see that the letter of October 23rd, 42 1986 has three paragraphs. The third paragraph has 43 been deleted, and that's the subject -- one of the two 44 subjects of my application. By the way, there is a 45 word "Argument" over on the right-hand side. That's a 46 note made by counsel, that shouldn't be there. The -- 47 THE COURT: What is the next document? 11550 Submissions In chief by Ms. Mandell

1 MR. MACAULAY: Well — 2 THE COURT: I can't read the date on it. 3 MR. MACAULAY: The next one is a letter addressed to Dr. Kari by 4 Overstall. 5 THE COURT: What's the date on that letter, do you know? 6 MR. MACAULAY: Well, I make it 198 6. 7 THE COURT: It's '86, is it? 8 MR. MACAULAY: We believe it's December. 9 MS. MANDELL: June. 10 MR. MACAULAY: June? 11 THE COURT: June. 12 MR. MACAULAY: Perhaps Miss Mandell can let us know. 13 THE COURT: Is privilege being claimed for this letter? 14 MS. MANDELL: No. 15 THE COURT: Do I need to know what it says; I can't read it 16 anyway? 17 MS. MANDELL: I have the same photocopy. 18 MR. MACAULAY: I'll refer to that letter later. But another 19 one, perhaps a little more important to our 20 submission, is a letter -- this is only page 1 because 21 only page 1 was actually delivered to us. We believe 22 that this is page 1 of a letter from -- we know that 23 it's a letter from Overstall to Dr. Rigsby. And 24 then — 25 THE COURT: Is that January 20th, '87? 26 MR. MACAULAY: January 20th, '87. 27 THE COURT: I have three pages, four pages. 2 8 MR. MACAULAY: No — well, if you have, it didn't come from us. 29 We were provided with only page 1. 30 THE COURT: I'm sorry, no. What follows is a different — it's 31 reply. 32 MR. MACAULAY: Then there's a letter from Rigsby to Overstall 33 dated February 1st, 1986, but we believe that the -- 34 the learned doctor was a year out, that that really 35 should read February 1st, 1987. It's a response to 36 the letter of January 20th, '87. 37 THE COURT: Yes, all right. 38 MR. MACAULAY: Then there is a note, this is either March 4th, 39 '87 or April 3rd, '87, from Rigsby to Overstall, and 40 finally a letter from Overstall to Dr. Kari dated May 41 18th, '87. 42 THE COURT: Yes. 43 MR. MACAULAY: The last letter I may not refer to. Now, we were 44 also -- we were provided yesterday with a draft of Dr. 45 Kari and Rigsby's report yesterday afternoon after 46 trial, and it appeared from that that there were at 47 least two drafts and maybe more drafts. In fact, 11551 Submissions In chief by Ms. Mandell

1 there were notations about drafts 8 and 9 and the 2 like, so there were several drafts in the report, and 3 we have, I assume, the pages, the various pages in the 4 drafts that from time to time were deleted from the 5 report or amended or changed in some way. 6 THE COURT: You're talking drafts to tab 2? 7 MR. MACAULAY: Well, yes, drafts to tab 2. And there's a 8 notation on the draft that we were given yesterday 9 that it was received by, reviewed by Overstall, and I 10 bring your lordship back to Overstall's letter to Dr. 11 Rigsby of January 20th. He says: 12 13 "I enclose an edited version of your report that 14 presents the linguistic evidence in a form that 15 would be most acceptable for the court. The 16 marked-up version of your original print-out is 17 also enclosed so you can see how the cutting and 18 pasting was done. I took the liberty of writing 19 the introduction myself, as it is more 20 straightforward and easier to do that way rather 21 than send you a list of instructions. Feel free 22 to change it to a form with which you feel 23 comfortable. I have also added a copy of the 24 Statement of Claim to the package so you can 25 check some of the assertions I make on your 26 behalf." 27 28 It appears from that that Mr. Overstall had a 29 considerable part to play in the development of the 30 report, not just the form, but the substance, and I 31 suppose during the cross-examination we'll find out 32 something about that. I might say that the 33 introduction to this report bears a remarkable 34 similarity to the introduction to the report filed or 35 made by the last witness, Miss Albright. Now, my 36 submission is that the court should examine the 37 blanked-out paragraph and also the memorandum that 38 I've referred to which is in that sequence. It bears 39 a date that shows it's in the correspondence leading 40 to the final report of February 1987 that -- I'm 41 referring to this memorandum of Richard Overstall, 42 December 8th, in order to determine if and to what 43 extent Overstall influenced the contents and the 44 conclusions, and if Dr. Rigsby or Dr. Kari was 45 influenced in the final report by the -- by other 46 experts in different disciplines, and in issue here 47 are matters of substance in Dr. Kari's and Rigsby's 11552 Submissions In chief by Ms. Mandell

1 evidence, say the identity and qualifications of the 2 persons who had a hand in shaping the report. Now, 3 earlier in the trial my colleague, Miss Koenigsberg, 4 was here, and Mr. Willms and Miss Mandell, there was 5 an application that -- for this kind of material. For 6 convenience -- for your lordship's convenience I'll 7 hand up a copy of your lordship's reasons. The 8 reports in that case were the reports of which have 9 been called the scientific witnesses, and I say Dr. 10 Kari isn't a scientist, not technical scientific 11 witness. I draw your attention to page 10 of that -- 12 those reasons where your lordship held as follows: 13 14 "First, it is settled law that anything in the 15 possession of the witness relating to the 16 litigation must be produced for inspection 17 unless a claim to continued privilege is properly 18 made. This would include letters of instruction, 19 fee agreements, written communications from the 20 party or its agents or lawyers relating to the 21 assignment, memos and drafts, suggestions from 22 others, and any other written material which has 23 or might have been considered by the witness 24 preparing his report or opinion or evidence." 25 26 Now, having regard to -- having regard to the contents 27 of paragraph 1 of this letter of January 20th, 1987, 28 there is some reason to believe that Overstall and 29 perhaps others had a part to play in the drafting of 30 the part we're talking about. The other letters just 31 show the sequence of events more than anything else, 32 but it's quite clear that Overstall played a major 33 part in this, and your lordship ought to see the 34 letter in question in order to determine whether the 35 whole document rather than just the few paragraphs of 36 the document and the additional items be disclosed. 37 THE COURT: Do I understand, Mr. Macaulay, what you want me to 38 look at is item 5? 3 9 MR. MACAULAY: Yes, my lord. 4 0 THE COURT: And item — 41 MR. MACAULAY: Well, it might have been item 10. It's the 42 paragraph -- 43 THE COURT: The letter of October 23rd? 44 MR. MACAULAY: The letter of October 23rd. 45 THE COURT: That missing paragraph and the full text of Mr. 46 Overstall's letter to Dr. Rigsby dated January 20th, 47 1987? 11553 Submissions In chief by Ms. Mandell

1 MR. MACAULAY: Yes, my lord. 2 THE COURT: Yes. All right, thank you. I'm sorry, anything 3 else? 4 MR. MACAULAY: Now, the — Miss Mandell has the original — the 5 letter of October 23rd here in court now. She does 6 not have, I didn't expect she would have, the other 7 memorandum, the item 5, the memorandum of December 8 8th, 1986. 9 THE COURT: All right, thank you. Mr. Willms. 10 MR. WILLMS: My lord, in respect of the claim for privilege that 11 has been made by my friend in respect of item 10, 12 which is lawyers brief and trial strategy, I think 13 that it's important to remember that the report wasn't 14 finalized until January 1987, so this piece of 15 correspondence predates the finalization of the 16 report, and while different considerations may come 17 into play in respect of that claim for privilege after 18 a report has been finalized and delivered, before the 19 report is finalized and delivered it's my submission 20 that if it may touch on the substance of the report in 21 any way, simply because it's something that's done 22 ahead of time and in light of the circumstances that 23 Mr. Macaulay has outlined, that perhaps before the 24 report is filed a more expansive view or restrictive 25 view of the privilege should be taken in light of the 26 potential effect, especially in the circumstances 27 here. 28 MR. MACAULAY: There is one more thing I would like to say, my 29 lord, or one more letter that I would particularly 30 like to draw your attention to, or just a few lines of 31 it. That's the letter to Overstall from Dr. Rigsby, 32 February 1st, 1986. It's the response -- '87. It's 33 the response to the letter in which Overstall -- of 34 January 20th in which Overstall says he's enclosing 35 the introduction which he's drafted for the report. 3 6 THE COURT: Yes. 37 MR. MACAULAY: And the — Dr. Rigsby says at the top of the 38 letter: 39 40 "I received your airexpressed letter of 20 January, 41 and other materials last Monday, 26 January. I 42 read through them straightaway, and I've been 43 rereading and thinking about them since as I've 44 worked on the revisions and additions. Your 45 comments and suggestions are on the whole, I 46 think, very good from a stylistic and substantive 47 point of view." 11554 Submissions In chief by Ms. Mandell

1 It goes on to discuss that in some detail. But the 2 expert witness, Dr. Rigsby, acknowledges that the -- 3 the revisions have to do with the substantive matters, 4 not just style or organization. So that's -- you can 5 take those two letters together, and Mr. Overstall 6 must have had -- he -- there's another thing too, and 7 this brings up, well, that reference I made to your 8 judgment that I've just handed up. It's -- your 9 lordship would note that it's significant in that -- 10 your lordship noted that it would be important to know 11 whether or not other experts from other disciplines 12 had a hand in the drafting of the report or expressing 13 views on it. Dr.Rigsby goes on to say, and I quote: 14 15 "I realize that I have to live with the decision 16 not to allow reference to other expert opinions, 17 but as an anthropologist, I think that restriction 18 is not acceptable to science and it is crippling 19 to the anthropological enterprise" -- 20 21 I'm afraid that my copy has a blank in there: 22 23 "that sets no spacial" -- 24 25 I think it is : 26 27 "and temporal limits to its interest in humans, 28 their cultures, societies and languages." 29 30 It would be interesting to know what was said on that 31 subject. 32 THE COURT: Yes. 33 MR. MACAULAY: That is the contribution. 34 THE COURT: So what you're asking for is not just the balance of 35 Mr. Overstall's letter of January 20th in the 36 documents as but the -- 37 MR. MACAULAY: Well, that's the balance of the letter, yes. 38 The letter of January 20th, you will need to see what 39 was enclosed. Obviously things were enclosed. When I 40 said the balance of the letter -- 41 THE COURT: You meant enclosures. 42 MR. MACAULAY: I meant the enclosures too. 43 THE COURT: Yes, all right. Thank you. Miss Mandell. 44 MS. MANDELL: Thank you, my lord, I unfortunately don't have the 45 memorandum. My friends asked that you see the part of 46 the letter that's blanked out and I've got no 47 objections to that. Perhaps it's the simplest way to 11555 Submissions In chief by Ms. Mandell

1 deal with the problem with respect to the October 23rd 2 letter, and I'll pass it up to your lordship. The 3 January 20th letter between Mr. Overstall and Mr. 4 Rigsby, I've canvassed Mr. Overstall's file, the 5 letter -- a copy of it isn't in there. We've been 6 attempting to get Rigsby's correspondence here, and 7 the problem that he raises for us following your 8 lordship's ruling on that is he had his correspondence 9 in two separate cities in Australia, in which he is in 10 apparently neither. He's endeavouring to get Faxes 11 filed to us as soon as he is able to get it all in one 12 place, and I am hopeful, as he is, that it will be 13 here before the week's end, but I don't have it, and 14 I've provided this one page because it was in Dr. 15 Kari's file as this, and I sent it because that's what 16 he provided to me, but I don't have the whole letter. 17 I've got no -- 18 THE COURT: It must be up in Smithers, is it? 19 MS. MANDELL: Well, we have all of Dr. — or Mr. Overstall's 20 correspondence files here in Vancouver, and I've gone 21 through them thoroughly with respect to this witness, 22 and the January 20th letter isn't in it. There's 23 other letters that were in Dr. -- Mr. Overstall's file 24 that weren't in the file of the witness, and they've 25 been disclosed or a claim of privilege has been made. 26 THE COURT: This appears to be a photocopy of the original. It 27 wouldn't be in the -- in Mr. Overstall's file anyway, 28 would it? 29 MS. MANDELL: Unless he kept — if he had kept a carbon. 30 THE COURT: This looks likes a photocopy of the original. 31 MS. MANDELL: Hopefully it will be found in Rigsby's file, 32 because it was sent to him, but I don't have that. 33 THE COURT: All right. Well, let me — 34 MS. MANDELL: I'm sorry, I just wanted to say that with respect 35 to the drafts, my friend and I have engaged in 36 innumerable letters on this, and I can only advise 37 your lordship that we were -- we've been through all 38 the sources that we normally check and others, and we 39 were able to finally find a draft, which we disclosed 40 to our friends. I was first made aware of it on the 41 weekend, and it was sent over. I do believe, given 42 the handwriting on the draft that we disclosed, that 43 it is the draft which is being referred to between Mr. 44 Overstall and Dr. Rigsby. Both of their handwritings 45 appear on the draft, and from the -- from the looks of 46 it, it looks like the draft which is being referred to 47 in the letter, but I could be wrong, and I don't know 11556 Submissions In chief by Ms. Mandell

1 of the existence of any other drafts, and we've 2 looked, and that's the best we can do on that. I 3 think my friend overstates Mr. Overstall's hand in it. 4 He did say he had a hand in the introduction, and you 5 will see my friend has asked us to black out a good 6 deal of the introduction, which was done, and I don't 7 know then what sort of point to make. So if I could 8 hand your lordship up the October 23rd letter, and 9 after lunch I'll bring in a copy of the memorandum and 10 your Lordship can look at it. The passage which 11 apparently is being referred to is the last paragraph 12 on the first page. 13 THE COURT: Yes, all right. Well, I've looked at the third 14 paragraph of the letter from Mr. Overstall to Dr. 15 Kari, and I do not think that it need be produced. I 16 would uphold the claim for privilege. It relates to 17 steps that are being taken within the plaintiff's camp 18 to collate certain investigations and it has some 19 statements of future intention, but -- about the 20 discussions that might be carried on in the future, 21 but nothing more, and for that reason it's my view it 22 need not be produced. Certainly it in no way advances 23 the defendants' cases. With regard to the memo from 24 Mr. Overstall to others dated December 8th, 1986, 25 which a claim for privilege has been made on the basis 26 that it relates to housekeeping matters, Miss Mandell, 27 I take it you don't have that here? 28 MS. MANDELL: No. I can get it at lunch. 29 THE COURT: You're prepared to produce it for my inspection? 30 MS. MANDELL: Yes. 31 THE COURT: All right. Then that leaves only the question of 32 the balance of Mr. Overstall's letter to Dr. Rigsby 33 dated January 20th, 1987 and their enclosures, and in 34 that regard we seem to be at a stalemate. Miss 35 Mandell says that she can't find it but hopes that it 36 might be in Rigsby's papers when they arrive, but as 37 things stand now I will be glad to have counsel tell 38 me what else they think that I should do, if anything, 39 in the face of what seems to me to be a stalemate. 40 Mr. Macaulay, what do you suggest? 41 MR. MACAULAY: I wouldn't call it a stalemate. I can't say this 42 for certain, but I assume that this witness, Dr. Kari, 43 received a copy of the draft introduction, and we may 44 find out something. 45 THE COURT: He's about to be cross-examined and you can 46 certainly pursue it. 4 7 MR. MACAULAY: But — 11557 Submissions In chief by Ms. Mandell

1 THE COURT: If he has, it should have been produced. 2 MR. MACAULAY: It would be odd if — 3 THE COURT: Unless — 4 MR. MACAULAY: If Dr. Rigsby — that none of the three would 5 have the draft introduction. 6 THE COURT: Has a claim for privilege been made to that letter? 7 MS. MANDELL: No. 8 MR. MACAULAY: No. 9 MS. MANDELL: I believe it's disclosable, from what I can tell, 10 I just don't have it. 11 MR. MACAULAY: But it hasn't. And the only problem is we will 12 be dealing with Dr. Kari now, and if we don't expect 13 to be the rest of the week at all, the 14 cross-examinations will be finished probably tomorrow, 15 but Dr. Kari lives a good long way away, and it would 16 be very -- Dr. Rigsby, as it stands now, is not going 17 to be called to be cross-examined -- it would be 18 unfortunate if Dr. Kari has to come back to address 19 whatever turns up in this letter. 20 THE COURT: Well, I'll hear your submissions as you think 21 appropriate from time to time, Mr. Macaulay. I don't 22 think there's anything more I can do at this point. 23 MR. MACAULAY: No. In view of the fact that the plaintiffs 24 undertake to continue their search for the balance of 25 the letter. 26 THE COURT: I'm sure they will in the next major search, being 27 the Rigsby papers, when they arrive. 2 8 MR. MACAULAY: Yes. 2 9 THE COURT: All right. Then I suppose we can do nothing more 30 than just proceed as best we can. I'll return these 31 documents to you, Mr. Macaulay, and the original 32 letter to -- oh, and the reasons to Mr. Macaulay and 33 the letter to Miss Mandell. 34 MR. MACAULAY: I might add as a parting shot, my lord — 35 THE COURT: Yes. 36 MR. MACAULAY: Miss Mandell — 37 THE COURT: Mr. Grant's not here. 38 MR. MACAULAY: Miss Mandell, I'm surprised referred to the 39 blanked-out portions of the report at tab 2. It was a 40 couple of sentences of the introduction. It would be 41 interesting to know who was the author of those 42 sentences. 43 THE COURT: Yes. Well, Dr. Kari might know. Have you decided 44 who will go first? 45 MR. WILLMS: I will, my lord. 4 6 THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Willms. 47 MR. WILLMS: My lord, I have an empty grey binder — 1155? J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 THE COURT: Thank you. 2 MR. WILLMS: I would ask be marked the next exhibit, and we'll 3 add to it as documents are identified. 4 THE COURT: Yes. That will be Exhibit 881. 5 THE REGISTRAR: 881. 6 7 EXHIBIT 881 - Cross-exam Book IV, Attorney General 8 of British Columbia 9 10 THE COURT: Do you expect to have 50 exhibits, Mr. Willms? 11 MR. WILLMS: I should tell your lordship that Exhibit 849A had 12 50 tabs in it but we only filed 37 and pulled the 13 other tabs out, and I'm hoping to do the same here. 14 15 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLMS: 16 Q Dr. Kari, I'm showing you a letter dated June 19th, 17 1985 from Mr. Overstall to yourself. Is this the 18 first correspondence that you received related to your 19 report from Mr. Overstall? 20 A I think so, yes, yes. This looks like it. 21 MR. WILLMS: My lord, 881-1. 22 THE COURT: Yes. 23 24 EXHIBIT 881-1-tab 1 - Letter dated June 19, 1985 25 to J. Kari from R. Overstall 26 27 MR. WILLMS: 28 Q Now, there is a reference in the first paragraph to a 29 letter March 17th, 1985 from you to Susan Marsden? 30 A Yes. 31 Q Can you describe what that letter was about and why 32 you wrote to Susan Marsden? 33 A Well, I at sometime had a letter from Susan Marsden, 34 and it was a rather general nature that she had heard 35 I worked on the language, and she was working in some 36 aspect. It wasn't too detailed. I probably don't 37 have the letter, I was handwriting a lot of letters. 38 I was back and forth from Chicago about that time on a 39 fellowship. I had some very limited exchange on 40 nothing really too very specific, except she was sort 41 of introducing herself to me saying she was working in 42 some aspect of the case and she heard I had been in 43 the area. 44 Q So your letter back to Susan Marsden was in a response 45 to a letter from her to you? 46 A Yes. 47 Q And the letter from her to you was related to the 11559 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 case? 2 A I don't know that it was. I'm sure it wasn't on a 3 letter-head from the counsel, it was more of a -- as I 4 recall, I just took it as a, you know, personal 5 correspondence from an academic person introducing 6 herself to me. 7 Q All right. And this was the first time that you had 8 ever corresponded on or knew of Susan Marsden? 9 A That's the first time I have heard of Marsden or the 10 preparation for the case at all. 11 Q Now, at the bottom of the letter, on the first page of 12 the letter from Mr. Overstall to yourself he suggests 13 some areas of research. The first one is: 14 15 "The relationship of Wet'suwet'en to other Carrier 16 languages and what that may say about the timing 17 and the nature of the separation of the 18 Wet'suwet'en from other Carrier peoples." 19 20 Now, just pausing there, did -- was that part of your 21 investigation in preparation for your report; did you 22 do that? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And it was during that time and leading up to the 25 present where the -- it's the timing of the separation 26 of what you now call Babine-Wet'suwet'en or "B-W"? 27 A Yes. 28 Q Now, the second item is: 29 30 "The relationship of Wet'suwet'en to other 31 Athapaskan languages, particularly the Tahltan 32 language." 33 34 And a note that: 35 36 "Some of our informants refer to certain 37 Wet'suwet'en place names as being in the 'Stikine' 38 language." 39 40 Did you do that? 41 A Well, I have done some Tahltan work, and I -- I have a 42 section in the report on Tahltan phonemic inventory. 43 Q And so — 44 A And in terms of some of the place names being in the 45 Stikine language, I personally haven't found any. 46 Q But I think what you've said earlier was the place 47 names were given to you by these four people who had 11560 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 done the research? 2 A Yeah. I don't -- yeah. I addressed the question, and 3 I think there was negative evidence that there was 4 some Stikine or obviously Tahltan structured within 5 the corpus of their place names, so I just didn't -- 6 you know, I don't even remember, it's sort of a 7 non-issue really in terms of -- well, I don't see -- 8 there's some Tahltan strata in their language, that's 9 definitely not accumulated through the kind of 10 research we're looking at. Tahltan is quite a ways to 11 the north and I have done some Tahltan work, I did 12 some last summer -- I think I would have to clarify 13 what -- yes. I did address an appendix on Tahltan 14 phonemic inventory in the report. 15 Q And did you determine, as is suggested in this letter, 16 that there are certain Wet'suwet'en place names which 17 are in the Stikine or Tahltan language? 18 A No, I didn't. 19 Q Now, did you yourself go up into any of the Tahltan 20 area and interview informants in the Tahltan area 21 about place names or anything like that? 22 A Not in connection with this project, but we did last 23 summer in our survey. Our survey was to investigate 24 the Sekani boundary too, so we were interested in the 25 affiliation of Caribou-Haida affiliation -- 26 affiliation of Caribou-Haida, and we did that sort of 27 as our -- it had nothing to do with this report, but I 28 do happen to know some things about that part of 29 British Columbia, and we worked with two excellent 30 speakers there at Iskut for several days, one is whom 31 is a Sekani speaker and one of whom is a Tahltan 32 speaker, and we clarified a number of things. 33 Q And in that further clarification were you able to 34 determine any Wet'suwet'en place names that had been 35 identified to you earlier as being from the Stikine or 36 Tahltan language? 37 A Well, no. But -- no. But you know a good percentage 38 of Athabaskan place names would -- well, no, 39 essentially no. It -- in the Wet'suwet'en corpus of 40 place names I see no features of Tahltan phonology, or 41 something like it, that I would look for that would 42 give rise to that. I mean people do say things: "Oh, 43 that's a real old word, and Stikine people use that 44 word", and you know, and in their name and there's 45 lots of possibility of diffusional patterns in British 46 Columbia vocabulary that people are sensitive to, so 47 there's various -- the folk knowledge of vocabulary 11561 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 distribution is quite vast in the area where there's a 2 lot of multilinguilism. 3 Q So you're aware that there are some terms which have 4 been referred to by B-W informants as very old, being 5 Stikine, or something like that? 6 A Well, you know, all their names are very old, and I 7 haven't seen any -- anything that sticks in my mind at 8 all that's distinctively Stikine. I could be more 9 specific. If any of the mountain names in 10 Wet'suwet'en territory had "Tse-a"' in it as a suffix, 11 like Tahltan does or Stikine does for a mountain, then 12 I would say that that might be a -- a Stikine area, 13 the toponymic generic term floating into the 14 Babine-Wet'suwet'en corpus, but I don't recall any 15 mountain names addressed with "Tse-a", T-S-E hyphen A 16 apostrophe, that would be the -- what they do up in 17 Tahltan country when they name a mountain, so I'm 18 sensitive to that, and I haven't seen it in the 19 Babine-Wet'suwet'en corpus in terms of generic terms 20 and place names, and if other people talk about place 21 names, there's all kinds of exotic vocabulary in this 22 part of British Columbia and personal names in -- and 23 I don't think you can -- I don't say that someone says 24 that there's some Stikine influence in the place names 25 is not interesting, I wouldn't say it's not 26 interesting. 27 Q All right. The third item identified by Mr. Overstall 28 in this letter is: 29 30 "The identification of dialects within the 31 Wet'suwet'en language and on opinion on the 32 reasons for the development of those dialects." 33 34 I think you've already suggested that there are four 35 dialects of Babine-Wet'suwet'en, is that correct? 36 A Yes. My 1986 statement is preliminary and our paper 37 here in binder 5 or tab 5 is our -- based on our 1988 38 work and is much more definitive, or, you know, it's 39 approaching a fuller picture of that. So I tried to 40 do it in terms of this contract, and then I've 41 advanced in terms of our more recent work. 42 Q Finally, the fourth point, which is set out on the 43 second page, is: 44 45 "The relationship of Wet'suwet'en to Gitksan and 46 other Tsimpsian languages." 47 11562 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 And that's the portion of the report that you and Dr. 2 Rigsby co-wrote? 3 A Compared vocabularies. 4 Q Comparing vocabularies. Well, you worked with Dr. 5 Rigsby before your work on this report? 6 A In graduate school he was my nature advisor and so on. 7 Q You had done research with him before? 8 A Yes, but not in British Columbia or localized to your 9 area here. I've written papers for him in class and 10 he was my advisor, or my dissertation, and exchanged 11 papers and interested in Australian work and that sort 12 of thing, as a colleague. 13 THE COURT: Is that for your Ph.D. or for your M.A.? 14 A Ph.D. 15 MR. WILLMS: Your reply to Mr. Overstall is July 8th, 1985. And 16 my lord, if that could be -- 17 THE COURT: Yes, 881-2. 18 19 EXHIBIT 881-2-Tab 2 - Letter dated July 8, 1985 to 20 R. Overstall from J. Kari 21 22 MR. WILLMS: 23 Q 881-2. And at the bottom you've set out your 24 objectives for your field trip. And objective A is 25 to: 26 27 "Meet with the Wet'suwet'en chiefs and tribal 28 officials to discuss research objectives and to 29 review and copy source materials on the 30 Wet'suwet'en language." 31 32 Now, first of all, did you do that? 33 A Yes. 34 Q All right. Who did you meet with? 35 A Oh, I met Don Ryan and Herb George and Alfred Joseph, 36 and various people there, you know, in Hazelton. 37 Q And what research objectives did you discuss with 3 8 them? 39 A It was essentially as outlined in Overstall's letter. 40 Q The four points is what you're referring to in Mr. 41 Overstall's letter? 42 A Well, I threw out some ideas and they actually -- 43 yeah. They didn't encourage me to go as widely afield 44 that way. They didn't encourage me to do a Babine 45 dialect survey or meet with Mr. Asp in Terrace 46 regarding Tahltan ethnogeography, they didn't 47 encourage me at all. They wanted me to stick to 11563 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 objectives in Overstall's letter and confine to the 2 Bulkley River and not try to -- I was sort of gee, I'm 3 interested in everything, you know, and they -- 4 they -- there were -- there was, you know, it was too 5 ambitious a thing for the amount of money, they had 6 like $5,000 to allocate on this, and I was tossing out 7 ideas, and I think they just either verbally or 8 written nixed my -- quite a bit of my A, B, and C 9 there, or whatever, C and D they nixed. 10 Q Maybe we can deal with them in turn. B you suggest: 11 12 "Do field work with a group of Wet'suwet'en elders, 13 concentrating especially on ethnogeographic data, 14 e.g. collate and analyze all place names, review 15 band names, directional terms, and historic 16 traditions that relate to territory." 17 18 A Yes. 19 Q Did you do that? 20 A Well, I was over-reaching. I didn't do all of that. 21 I did a good part, and I can -- I did not do historic 22 traditions that relate to territory. 23 Q Which elders did you meet with and do field work with? 24 A In -- I would have to look in my notebooks to get the 25 names, but we had some workshops in Moricetown, and it 26 was working quite a bit with Alfred again. 27 Q Alfred Joseph? 28 A Alfred Joseph, and the other people I've worked with 2 9 in the past years, the names don't come to mind in 30 terms of all the individuals. It is listed though, 31 the number of people I worked with is listed in my 32 binder 8 -- I mean tab 8 in the -- can I have that 33 book? Yeah. You know, I did meet with a fair number 34 of people in 1985 from Moricetown and Hagwilget, and 35 what I did and was able to research was some 36 ethnogeographic data in -- but I didn't, you know, 37 analyze all the place names. That was, I mean, an 38 ambitious phrase on my part, so I analyzed, as I 39 explained today, a good chunk, you know, maybe 50 40 percent of the now accumulated corpus. And I did 41 review band names and directional terms, and I did 42 develop a system for analyzing the place names, but I 43 did not develop any material or experience with 44 historic traditions relating to territory. 45 Q Now — 46 A And that's in terms of A and B. B, I've been fairly 47 specific about what I feel I did in terms of what I 11564 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 said I wanted to do and what I actually did, and then 2 C and D they felt was out of the view or range of 3 their -- what they wanted me to do in that -- in '86 4 and '87. It was just too ambitious and too time 5 consuming, it wasn't realistic. 6 Q Under item C on surveying similar data on the 7 neighboring Babine Lake dialect to the east, you 8 ultimately did. And leaving the word "dialect" to one 9 side for a moment, you did investigate the Babine 10 language, and that's in the report that's been marked 11 the '85 report? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Your preliminary view, though, at this time was that 14 Babine Lake was a dialect of Carrier? 15 A No, a dialect of B-W. There's no ambiguity about 16 that. 17 Q No, I'm talking about 1985? 18 A No. It was a dialect of Babine-Wet'suwet'en, not a 19 dialect of Carrier. My opinion then, you know, was I 20 mean some of the people inhabiting there are 21 originally from Babine Lake, so I had, you know, 22 pretty -- I just, you know, had never actually been to 23 Babine Lake and hadn't worked with speakers from -- 24 Q One of the things you determined when you did do this 25 review with this investigation with the neighboring 26 Babine Lake people is that people both inside and 27 outside the claim area here speak the same language, a 2 8 common language? 29 A Yes. 30 Q Now, who was Asp and Associates, why did you want to 31 meet with them respecting Tahltan ethnogeography? 32 A Well, I'm a topophile, if you will, and fascinated 33 with place names, and I wanted to see the Tahltan 34 ethnogeography. I had never seen it, and I'm just as 35 interested in Whitehorse material and all that too, 36 so -- 37 Q Is that what -- who are Asp and Associates? 38 A I have never met the man. I understand he's an 39 attorney in Terrace who's had some work with Tahltan 40 people about mapping and place names, and I heard they 41 had a lot of valuable documentation down there and 42 didn't know much about how to interpret it and 43 organize it, and I am a specialist in that sort of 44 thing, and -- but it has absolutely no connection with 45 the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en, or, you know, it was just 46 one of my things I was curious about. 47 Q You didn't know at this time that there were areas 11565 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 which were multilingual, including Tahltan, that you 2 ultimately discovered? 3 A Multilingual? 4 Q Yes. I believe you said that you -- or you found 5 people who were multilingual, had facilities of five 6 native languages? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Plus English, one of the languages being Tahltan? 9 A No. That doesn't include Tahltan. 10 Q No, it doesn't? 11 A The five mentioned, like in page 23 of our 1989 paper, 12 that five includes English, Gitksan, Sekani, Babine, 13 Wet'suwet'en and Carrier. That's five. There might 14 be some folks around that know six, but I haven't met 15 them yet. 16 Q And just to finish with the Asp and Associates, at any 17 time in the preparation of your report did you review 18 that research on Tahltan ethnogeography? 19 A No. But my colleague up in Whitehorse was just 20 visiting with Tahltan people a week or so ago about 21 the same matter. I have never seen the data. 22 MR. WILLMS: My lord. 23 THE COURT: All right. Two o'clock, please. 24 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. Court will adjourn until two. 25 26 (Proceedings adjourned at 12:30) 27 28 I hereby certify the foregoing to be 29 a true and accurate transcript of the 30 proceedings herein transcribed to the 31 best of my skill and ability 32 33 34 35 36 Graham D. Parker 37 Official Reporter 38 United Reporting Service Ltd. 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 11566 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 2:00 p.m.) 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. 4 THE COURT: Mr. Willms. 5 MR. WILLMS: 6 Q Dr. Kari, the n ext letter I would like to refer you to 7 is a letter of February 5th , 1986, from Mr. Overstall, 8 and the exhibit that's been marked Exhibit 881-1 which 9 is the letter o f July 19th, 1985, from Mr. Overstall. 10 Was there any c orrespondenc e between July 19th, 1985, 11 that is from Mr Overstall to yourself, and February 12 5th, or is this the first p iece of correspondence that 13 you received fr om Mr. Overs tall subsequent to -- 14 A Yes, that's abo ut right. B ecause I was at the 15 Newberry Librar y that year and I remember I got this 16 letter at the N ewberry and I hadn't heard for some 17 time before. 18 MR. WILLMS: My lord, 881 -3? 19 THE COURT: Yes. 20 THE REGISTRAR: 881-3. 21 22 (EXHIBIT 881-3 - Letter from Mr. Overstall to Dr. Kari 23 dd. February 5, 1986) 24 25 MR. WILLMS: 26 Q In the third paragraph, you said -- or doctor -- 27 sorry, Mr. Overstall said -- talked about the 28 discussion in August and then says: 29 30 "Dr. Antonia Mills has been working for us here 31 since last summer collecting and organizing the 32 Wet'suwet'en House and Clan Histories. You may 33 wish to talk to her before you start." 34 35 Just pausing there. Had you heard of Dr. Mills before 36 this correspondence? 37 A No. 38 Q Had you started your research before receiving this 39 correspondence? 40 A Well, I started entering data on a computer from my 41 previous work in, you know, from the '70's, so that's, 42 I guess you could say, starting my research. That was 43 just a filing method for getting my previous field 44 notes on computer, but -- 45 Q You hadn't attended in the area? 46 A No, no. I hadn't been in the area or heard of Mills 47 until he mentioned her name in the letter. 11567 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 Q Did you receive assistance from Dr. Mills in doing any 2 of your research? 3 A I wouldn't say so, other than I met her and she joined 4 us in a workshop in Moricetown later that year when I 5 was there, that's when I met Mills. And of course she 6 has been working with some of the same people I worked 7 with, and some of the vocabulary that I -- appears in 8 my notes is coterminous with things that she was 9 working on. And her area -- I don't know. I don't 10 regard it as receiving assistance, but we met and we 11 had some -- had some overlap in time there. I 12 wouldn't say she assisted us in our report -- 13 Q I'm showing you -- 14 A -- or in the conclusion in our report or anything like 15 that. 16 Q -- some extracts from documents delivered to us and 17 identified as your field notes, and the numbers in the 18 upper right-hand corner are numbers that were put 19 on -- they are not your numbers, and I can advise you 2 0 that they were put on as the documents came in, to 21 number where they were. So the number 394, 395. 22 A Oh yes. 23 Q 399. 24 A I recognize this, yes. 25 Q Now, first of all, just starting with the first page 26 here, the name "Neil Sterritt" and "Ed John - Carrier 27 Sekani Tribal Council"? 28 A Yes. 2 9 Q And then the date. Now, do I read that date as May 30 11th, 1986? 31 A Um-hmm, yeah. 32 Q This is in your writing? 33 A Yes, that's my handwriting. 34 Q Did you receive assistance from Neil Sterritt in doing 35 any of your investigations? 36 A No. I just was introduced to them and wrote their 37 names down so I would remember them. And Ed John 38 happened to be there for something and I just made a 39 note that they were there. It has no bearing on this 40 work with Charles and Margaret Austin that's on the 41 same page, that's actually a different session or -- I 42 just was simply introduced to people at the council 43 and then I'm onto my field work with Charles and 44 Margaret Austin. It -- probably over in Hagwilget. 45 Q If you can turn to the next page, and it was the next 46 page in the materials that we received, there is a 47 note at the top that says "Barbeau-Beynon material," 1156? J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 and underneath that it says, 2 3 "Form questions for Indian witnesses ideas. 4 a. w/ speaker on phonetics." 5 6 Does that mean "With speaker on phonetics"? Do you 7 mean by "w/", with? 8 A "With", my abbreviation for "with". 9 Q And then down below that you have got, "b. w/ Tanya," 10 T-A-N-Y-A, "+ M. George." Now first of all, M. George 11 is Marvin George? 12 A I guess so, yeah. 13 Q And Tanya is Tonia Mills? 14 A Yeah. I misspelled her name. 15 Q So Tonia Mills started helping you — Dr. Mills 16 started helping you out in May of 1986? 17 A Well, I don't know, really, I don't even recall what I 18 mean here by -- and I don't say that Tonia really 19 helped me in terms of the thrust of the way I do 20 language work or something. I -- with all due respect 21 for her work, my work is independent of hers and so 22 she didn't help me in terms of telling me what to look 23 for, what kind of words to look for. I know a lot 24 about Athabaskan, I know what kind of words to look 25 for. But I don't really know what I meant here by 26 "Form questions for Indian witnesses," because 27 actually, I've never even met personally these 28 plaintiff chiefs that you've already had come in, and 29 I don't even -- I've met a few of them personally but 30 I certainly wouldn't -- I don't know -- are you 31 implying something? I don't have any special role -- 32 are you implying that maybe I tried to channel 33 questions into -- I don't know. 34 Q Well, maybe I'm reading this wrong, but it sounds like 35 you are getting ready to form questions for Indian 36 witnesses on linguistics and the ideas are (a) with 37 the speaker on phonetics, and (b) with Tonia and 38 Marvin George? 39 A I can't make much coherence out of my own notes on 40 this. I know the Barbeau-Beynon material is at 41 Columbia University and relates to Coast Tsimshian and 42 it's really complete -- these are non sequitur things 43 and my notes often are that way in a series. Here I 44 am in Hagwilget and next page has some note to myself 45 on something that's not -- it may be -- you know, my 46 ideas come in -- I mean it's just the way I catalogue 47 my ideas in some ways, and I can't see any connection 11569 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 between Barbeau-Beynon material and the next, "form 2 questions for Indian witnesses." I can't even give 3 you a good -- and then I've got down some field notes 4 here on several things below. 5 Q Now, if you turn the page in the extract that I gave 6 you? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Now, it's not the next page in your notes, you'll see 9 your number is six? 10 A Yes. 11 Q But it's 399 which is our number, and you've got a 12 reference to: 13 14 "L. Burnard - Hogarth. 15 Archaeological investigation in Gitksan 16 Wet'suwet'en territories. 17 March 1985." 18 19 Now, that's your handwriting? 20 A That's my handwriting. It's some kind of reference 21 and I don't think I've ever seen that, whatever it is, 22 a Burnard Hogarth. 23 Q Yeah. You mentioned the Albright report. Did you 24 review the report prepared by Albright? 25 A I just saw it this week. 26 Q You hadn't seen it prior to this week? 27 A I never saw it until when I got here to Vancouver. 28 Q Okay. 29 A It's very interesting. And this one I -- you've 30 refreshed my memory on a source I've never seen, 31 Burnard Hogarth. What is the first name, B-U-R? 32 Q N-A-R-D. 33 A N-A-R-D, and Hogarth. And I had forgotten about that 34 reference. 35 Q All right. But you didn't — 36 A But I hadn't read it. It's just -- what a scholar 37 does, he sees a monograph title and he writes it down 38 and maybe some day he'll get a copy or something. 39 Q Down below you have another note, it says, "M.J. 40 Duiver," D-U-I-V-E-R, or is that N? 41 A D-U-I-V-E-N, I believe. 42 Q And then "Draft", and then you have got: 43 44 "Codification - Gitksan. 45 p 45 Bear Lake area dispute of Tsetsaut --" 46 47 T-S-E-T-S-A-U-T. 11570 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 "-- arrows shot into rock crevices at Tatla --" 2 3 T-A-T-L-A. And then is that an S-K in parenthesis? 4 "(SK) Lake"? 5 A Yeah. 6 Q "Show extent of the territory." What does that mean? 7 A I've forgotten I wrote this down. It's interesting, 8 isn't it. Tsetsaut, yeah. 9 Q Didn't you investigate Bear Lake as part of your 10 investigations in this report? 11 A Not systematically. I do have things in my notes that 12 would pertain to that area but they are more of a 13 piecemeal random nature. I haven't been to Bear Lake 14 and I haven't -- I've met some speakers who are from 15 there but I haven't worked with them in a way I would 16 consider researching that, and I wasn't asked to 17 research that. 18 Q Okay. 19 A I am interested in it and if I see -- I don't know 20 what page 45 is of, and of what document that's even 21 page 45 of. And it's an interesting statement about 22 Tsetsaut, of Tsetsaut or Bear Lake if somebody has 23 evidence of that, that's obviously real important for 24 British Columbia prehistory. 25 Q Be real important for your report too? 2 6 A Yeah. But I don't have any evidence of that. 27 Q Well, did you look for it? 28 A Well, Tsetsaut has apparently been extinct since 1925 29 and I, back in 1973, even stopped in Stewart, B.C. and 30 asked around about the area. About -- in 1973 I 31 stopped in Stewart, B.C. and asked people in the 32 community if there were any native people there, you 33 know. I've been interested in -- is Tsetsaut really 34 extinct? 35 Q Just turning the page in the extract that I've given 36 you which is -- you'll see the jump. There is some 54 37 pages further down in the notes that we got, anyway, 38 and your number is 48 on the page. These are your 39 notes again, this is your handwriting on this page? 40 A This is Bruce's handwriting. 41 Q Bruce? 42 A Bruce Rigsby. 43 Q Okay. Now this was disclosed with your material? 44 A Right, right. 45 Q So you had this? 46 A This was in Moricetown at a workshop and I was 47 handling the blackboard and trying to kind of help 11571 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 conduct a workshop and writing words on a blackboard 2 with a group of people, and then Bruce was taking 3 notes and then I got a Xerox of Bruce's notes. That's 4 in — 5 Q So it's at the bottom where -- these are in Dr. 6 Rigsby's hand, says: 7 8 "The people at north end of Takla speak faster 9 than at Babine Lake --" 10 11 A "-- but the language is the same." 12 Q "-- but the language is the same." 13 Now, is that his view or is that yours? Isn't 14 that your area? 15 A It's a statement made at the Moricetown workshop. 16 It's not his view, it's a verbatim quote from some 17 person there, perhaps Mr. Mitchell, the older Mr. 18 Mitchell, person like that. 19 Q Alfred Joseph? 20 A Or Joseph, one of the persons at the workshop 21 commenting on language intelligibility, and Bruce 22 wrote the quote down. It's not an opinion, it's a 23 statement, you know. 24 Q And then the next paragraph is: 25 26 "The Bear Lake people also speak Gitksan, and 27 because some families are intermarried with 28 neighbours, they can understand Sekani and Fort 29 St. James Carrier? Perhaps also the Stikine 30 (language) lg." 31 32 That was discussed at this workshop? 33 A Yes. 34 Q Was it hypothesized that Bear Lake was perhaps 35 Tsetsaut or Tahltan? 36 A Oh, that would be --no. It's much more complex than 37 that, and it's -- it's obviously a multilingual zone, 38 and we didn't research it but we write down anecdotes 39 like this when we hear them as though they would be 40 contributing to what would be real research of that 41 type of issue. 42 Q Can I put it this way: Linguistically you really 43 don't have any firsthand knowledge of Bear Lake, I 44 mean you haven't been there? 45 A No. I'm interested in it and if I hear a statement of 46 this nature I would write it down in my notes. But 47 it's a back-burner type of thing in terms of what I 11572 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 worked on in the '86 report or even in our '88 report 2 too, our 1988 work too. So I -- 3 Q Now just turning to the next page in the extract that 4 I've given you from your notes, and it's five pages 5 along in your notes. It's got 458 which is our number 6 at the top. Whose handwriting is on this page, this 7 May 20, 1986? 8 A That looks like Tonia's in the same context of the 9 workshop, and I was handling the blackboard and 10 someone else was taking notes. 11 Q So these notes are in Antonia Mills' hand? 12 A Yeah. A group of people there and Sarah Tait and so 13 on at the workshop. 14 Q Let's go through this. James Kari is you, Bruce 15 Rigsby is Dr. Rigsby, Victor Jim. Who is Victor Jim? 16 A Moricetown person. I don't know his title. He works 17 at the Moricetown Band Office. 18 Q You don't know what his title is? 19 A Well, is he band manager at one time or counsellor 20 or -- I'm not sure. 21 Q Tonia Mills is Dr. Mills? 22 A Um-hmm. 23 Q Sarah Tait. Who is Sarah Tait? 24 A Woman from Moricetown, I believe. 25 Q Is that all you knew at the time, just somebody who 26 lived in Moricetown? 27 A Yeah. These are people I probably don't know very 28 well personally, say in contrast to the Austin family 29 or some other people I've worked with more. 30 Q Who is Madeline Alfred? 31 A Apparently another person there. I work with a lot of 32 people and sometimes -- like, I can't even get a 33 picture in my mind of what these people look like, 34 frankly. 35 Q Okay. Next, Emma Mitchell? 36 A Michell it looks like. 37 Q Did you know who she was? 38 A Well, there was a bunch of women came into the 39 workshop and I got them -- right now I would have 40 their names and faces mixed up unless I was 41 reintroduced to them, you know. 42 Q And Helen Kidd? 43 A I'm not sure about that. 44 Q What that name is? 45 A What that last name is. 46 Q And then there is a reference, if you turn to the last 47 page of this extract that I handed to you, which is -- 11573 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 this is another four pages along, May 22nd, 1986. Is 2 this your handwriting or is this Antonia Mills or Dr. 3 Rigsby or whose? 4 A That looks like Mills' taking notes at the workshop 5 and me kind of extemporizing and lecturing a little 6 bit about Athabaskan and Greenberg, three-wave 7 migration hypothesis, that sort of thing. Mixing a 8 little academics with workshop on language and she 9 just probably wrote it down for her own interests 10 sake. It's not tremendously relevant. Eskimo 11 languages, four Eskimo languages -- you can see I'm 12 saying that there is Eskimo languages in Alaska and I 13 probably had this map out here and I was explaining 14 where Eskimos are and, you know, kind of basic thing I 15 would do at a workshop or undergraduate class or 16 something like that. 17 MR. WILLMS: My lord, can that be 881-4? 18 19 (EXHIBIT 881-4 - Six Pages of Dr. Kari's Handwritten 20 Field Notes) 21 22 THE COURT: What are the three-waves of immigration you are 23 talking about? 24 THE WITNESS: Well, the Greenberg 1987 book called, "Language in 25 the Americas" -- my lord, are you interested in that 26 or would you -- it's somewhat tangential but I could 27 talk about it. 28 THE COURT: Does it relate to Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en people? 29 THE WITNESS: Well, it certainly — ten to 15,000 years ago it 30 might, but -- 31 THE COURT: I'll leave it to counsel and see if they want to 32 pursue it. Thank you. 33 What is that word, Terrace, that you said? 34 Greenberg -- 35 THE WITNESS: Greenberg 1987, "Language in the Americas", 36 Stanford University Press. 37 THE COURT: No, no. On this note here, it says Greenberg and 38 then beside it? 39 THE WITNESS: Oh. Greenberg Turner. Yeah, that's an incomplete 40 reference to an article in "Current Anthropology" 1987 41 that ties some skeletal physical anthropological 42 evidence to language migration hypothesis in terms of 43 Na-Dene and Athabaskan. It is kind of interesting 44 because they are saying --I don't know how they prove 45 this, but there is some skeletal remains over here in 46 Siberia, teeth dental records of 10,500 years ago that 47 might be Na-Dene in Siberia. But that's something I 11574 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 was talking about at a workshop. 2 THE COURT: All right, thank you. 3 MR. WILLMS: 4 Q I've got another three pages from the documents that 5 were described as your notes, starting with "December 6 1986." 7 A Right. 8 Q "Place names with Alfred Joseph." 9 Can you explain what you were doing here? 10 A Yes. This is a good case of what we referred to this 11 morning of that -- my role when I came in to help 12 proof-read place names. This is what this is here. 13 Q Just part of that proof-reading? 14 A Proof-reading workshop where I am sort of exposed to a 15 lot of data but I don't know where, you know, Goosly 16 Lake is or Boozely (ph) Lake or how you spell it. And 17 you know, it's -- I mean that's not -- I was 18 proof-reading the language data and exposed to a lot 19 of data and not being out seeing the country, and this 20 is something like -- this is -- that's exactly what 21 this is. 22 Q Now, the next page which is some 37 pages along, there 23 is a reference part way down to "Tonia Mills." That's 24 Dr. Mills again? 25 A Yes. 26 Q What's the relevance of Tonia Mills and then -- is 27 this your writing here? 28 A That's my writing. Looks like I might have copied 29 something from Tonia's notebook or something. It 30 might look interesting linguistically or something. I 31 don't know, she might have been -- come through to the 32 council office or -- these do look -- where the -- in, 33 say, the last three words on the page, if you want me 34 to -- if you want me to give my first blush analysis, 35 the last two look Gitksan and the first one looks 36 Athabaskan, and I don't even know where they are or 37 what. I mean I can only keep up with so many names 38 and so much data in a short period of time. It was 39 strictly trying to help with some proof-reading and 40 little ground rules so they could number the names and 41 map the names. And it looked like it was going along 42 rather nicely and I wasn't trying to cover all bases 43 and stake each name and document it and every which 44 way possible, you know. So these things are 45 fragmentary. 46 Q The next page, which is the next page from your notes? 4 7 A Um-hmm. 11575 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 Q Starts off with some more names on the left-hand 2 middle and then "Tonia Mills phone call 12/16"? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Was this a discussion that you had with Tonia Mills 5 where she was giving you all of this information? 6 A No. We would have had a phone call about something, 7 but that couldn't have happened like that. She 8 couldn't pronounce the language that would allow me to 9 spell it over the phone with her. These are names 10 from Alfred or the speakers right there at the same 11 time. I mean you -- I don't know -- you may take 12 notes more orderly than I do, but my notes here might 13 be non sequitur from your point of view. 14 MR. WILLMS: My lord, 881-5? 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 17 (EXHIBIT 881-5 - Three Pages of Dr. Kari's Handwritten 18 Field Notes) 19 20 MR. WILLMS: 21 Q The last -- and this is just a two-page extract from 22 your notes, the first page, in the middle of the page 23 you say: 24 25 "NP + Alfred Joseph can't understand each other in 2 6 native." 27 28 First of all, is this your writing? 29 A Yes. NP is Nick Prince and that's my handwriting. 30 Q Okay. And who is Nick Prince? 31 A He is from Fort St. James. This is a real interesting 32 point about the language boundary and it's an example 33 of sociolinguistic data. Do you want me to define 34 that? I mean sociolinguistic data is like language 35 intelligibility and who speaks who and, you know, who 36 can understand each who -- which speaker, which 37 language can understand each other better, and those 38 kinds of questions. And Nick Prince and Alfred Joseph 39 went to boarding school together, known each other all 40 their lives and they are about the same age and they 41 are both excellent speakers of central Carrier and 42 Babine-Wet'suwet'en. And the point Nick was making, 43 and I made a note of it in my notes, I was talking 44 with Nick in Fort St. James -- I mean in Prince George 45 as a matter of fact, because this was in Prince 46 George, and he said, "Oh yeah, we always use English 47 with each other." 11576 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 Q All right. And then you've got another note? 2 A And that's corroborative of this intelligibility 3 factor that has been under researched, you see. So 4 that's what that states. 5 Q And Nick Prince, do you know what he is, what ethnic 6 background? 7 A Of course. 8 Q What? 9 A He is a well-known family, he is former chief of the 10 Nakaslie Band that is in Fort St. James and very well- 11 known writer of his language, he's published books. 12 Q Is that Carrier? 13 A Yes, Carrier. And he was also -- I don't know. He 14 has done many things in his career in native politics 15 in northern British Columbia, and he is one of the 16 senior central Carrier speakers just as Alfred is of 17 his language. And so a statement on intelligibility 18 like this is, you know, that's proof of something, 19 isn't it, that there is a language boundary. 20 Q Then you have a reference to Tonia Mills? 21 A Yeah. I remember this, exactly where this is. I was 22 in the Moricetown Band Office and I was standing 23 around waiting for the coffee to get ready or 24 something, and there was a bulletin board and she had 25 sent the Moricetown Band a Christmas card or something 26 and it had her address on it, and so I wrote her 27 address down because I didn't realize she was in 28 Virginia. I haven't written to her, I just didn't 29 know Tonia had left the area so I wrote her address 3 0 down. 31 Q Did you send any of the drafts or outlines of your 32 report to Antonia Mills? 33 A No. 34 Q And did she send any of hers to you? 35 A No. I haven't seen her report in any form. 36 Q Now, the next page of the extract which is -- I think 37 it's unrelated, but you've got in the middle of the 38 page -- are these your notes, is this your 39 handwriting? 40 A Yeah, this looks -- I would have to double -- yes, 41 it's mine, yes. Yes, it's my handwriting. 42 Q And which language are you writing down here? 43 A Well, I would have to double-check my notebook, but it 44 looks like when we were up in Iskoot (ph) last summer. 45 Q Tahltan? 46 A Yeah, Tahltan. 47 Q So you did do some Tahltan research, but this is '88 11577 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 research; is that right? 2 A Well, I've given you my 1988 notebooks, so -- and I'd 3 also be glad, if you want, my February 1989 notebook 4 from this week, you can Xerox that too. I didn't want 5 to -- we had done some significant research this week, 6 so -- 7 MR. WILLMS: My lord, 881-6? 8 THE REGISTRAR: 881-6. 9 10 (EXHIBIT 881-6 - Two pages of Dr. Kari's Handwritten 11 Field Notes) 12 13 MR. WILLMS: 14 Q The next letter is your letter of February 21st, 1986, 15 to Mr. Overstall, and you start out talking about 16 whether you can attend in the area in May. And I 17 think we've already been through a few of your notes 18 from May from the meetings that you were at? 19 A Yes. 20 Q But at the bottom of the letter, first page, you say 21 this: 22 23 "We certainly will want to have some discussions 24 about the status of literacy and writing systems 25 at the outset of the sessions in May. However, 26 come July, you should have all your language data, 27 from Morice, Jenness or from recent sources, 28 presented in a regularized writing system. 29 Otherwise, arguments based upon the language 30 materials could be attacked by someone arguing 31 that there is no control over these sources." 32 33 What did you mean by that? 34 A Well, this is a difficult language. The phonology of 35 Babine-Wet'suwet'en is elusive and I would say of the 36 various languages I worked on, it's probably the 37 hardest -- it's taken me the hardest or the longest 38 time to warm up to it, and of course I've been 39 separated from it at long points in time whereas in 40 Alaska I am with the language much sooner. But there 41 has been -- it's taken us several years to do the 42 research which would give us the basis for a 43 standardized writing system, and I am willing to 44 account for several generations of writing systems 45 that I myself have used, and I could explain those in 46 my 1975 notes, my 1978 notes, my 1986 notes and now 47 our 1988-'89 notes. There are various technical 1157? J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 issues involved and it's led to what I think now could 2 be a standardized writing system for the language, and 3 that involves the analysis for the underlying vowel 4 systems and the dialectology that we really only have 5 done in 1988. I over -- underestimated the amount of 6 fine tuning it would take from when I wrote this 7 letter. 8 Q Were you not also concerned that for the material that 9 you didn't collect personally that there would be some 10 method of insuring that you could say that it was 11 indeed Babine-Wet'suwet'en? 12 A Yes. 13 Q All right. That's what you meant by "control over the 14 sources"? 15 A Yes. It's etymological control, rigour in spelling 16 it. I think we've obtained that level now as part of 17 a gradual research process. The other side of this, 18 in terms of a standardized writing system, is what's 19 going to fly with the people, and can you get the 20 Babine Band to agree with, say, the Hagwilget and 21 Moricetown Band on how they want to spell this kkh 22 (ph) and kkha (ph), and it does involve give and take 23 in community education, and there are people who have 24 been given central Carrier school books and told that, 25 "Go into the school and teach your language," in Burns 26 Lake and things like that, and then they write "schwa" 27 with "U" and, you know, lots -- 28 Q You'll have to spell "schwa". 29 A Schwa is S-C-H-W-A, that's "uh", that's the vowel 30 "uh", high frequency vowel, schwa. And this has been 31 a neglected language linguistically and it's a 32 difficult language and people have gone ahead and had 33 tried to write their language over in Burns Lake or in 34 Moricetown and they've used different writing systems. 35 Some have tried to use a version of the Fort St. James 36 writing system which -- "U" for schwa as I just said, 37 and many -- so these are various issues you come in 38 contact with when you meet people. People do like to 39 fight about spelling sometimes, and I have been 40 something of a mediator, trying to discuss these 41 issues in workshops. Our 1988 report of our 1988 42 work, have you seen that document, sir, on the 43 workshops we had in 1988, this summer? 4 4 Q I don't know. 45 A It is submitted. 4 6 THE COURT: I have it. 47 A I did want to submit that. 11579 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 MR. WILLMS: 2 Q It doesn't ring a bell. 3 A No, no, our 1988 workshop is -- I mean, you know, it's 4 not easy to please everybody in terms of coming up 5 with a writing system, and we do, in a sense, too, 6 have to prove ourselves and our skill as linguists, 7 and I'm used to these kinds of issues in Alaska as a 8 linguist, and there has been a lot of language work 9 here that has been done in -- at a folk level that 10 still represents important research and comes into 11 your affidavits and so forth. But I haven't proof- 12 read all of those or anything, but we have a good 13 writing system that we are proposing now and I can 14 account for my own notes in terms of different 15 generations of writing systems internal to my own 16 notes through basic philological approaches. Do you 17 know what I mean by a philological approach in the 18 analysis of documents? And I can tell what year -- if 19 you showed me a Xerox today of page 16 and I had a C 20 and a K and an I on that page, I could tell you it was 21 1978. So -- of my notes. 22 Q Because the writing style changes? 23 A Well, I try trial balloons and go with this for awhile 24 and that for awhile and then -- so if you showed me my 25 notes with, say, the Austins and I'm using one writing 26 system in '73, one in '75, one in '78, one in '86 and 27 now one in '88, I could tell you which year that one 28 page of notes came from. And those are not mistakes 29 or inconsistencies, those are -- in terms there is an 30 interplay between research on the phonetics and how to 31 develop a practical writing system. 32 Q All right. And — 33 A And with a practical writing system you have to deal 34 with things that are on a common typewriter and 35 various issues, you know. 36 Q All -- I'm actually just working with the source of 37 your information. I haven't worked my way up to the 38 language yet, Dr. Kari, and I'm sorry I'm so slow. 39 But what I was concerned about, for example, is how 40 many Wet'suwet'en speakers did you personally 41 interview, let's say between May of 1986 and the time 42 that your report in January 1987 was published? 43 A I could tell you in the -- in eight -- tab 8, the last 44 tab there it would answer that. 45 Q That's Exhibit 782? 46 A Yeah. Just in those dates, in those years. 47 Q Yes. I'm interested in May 1986 to the date? 11580 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 A Okay, number four and five. 2 Q Let's just -- number four is the meetings in May of 3 1986, sponsored by the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en Tribal 4 Council? 5 A Um-hmm. 6 Q You spent 11 days in Hagwilget and Moricetown? 7 A Um-hmm. 8 Q And you worked with nine speakers? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Then if you slip down to five, you've got December 11 1986, sponsored by the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en Tribal 12 Council, you have seven days in Hagwilget and 13 Moricetown and Hazelton, and you worked with five 14 speakers, correct? 15 A Yeah. That's -- like some of that Xerox you showed me 16 a few minutes ago -- 17 Q So I add that up to 14 speakers between May '86 -- 18 A Um-hmm. 19 Q -- and the time that your report was finalized in 20 January of 1987? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And those speakers that you worked with, you worked 23 with them in Hagwilget, Moricetown and Hazelton? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Those speakers, were they people that you sought out 26 or were they introduced to you? 27 A Well, I know people from the previous visits, so there 28 is that category, and then these folks like, you know, 29 to my embarrassment I can't remember the names and 30 faces like at that Moricetown workshop. That is two 31 categories there: people I've known from earlier work 32 that I knew closely, and people I met at, you know, 33 shorter workshops. 34 Q But you didn't organize who would be at the workshop, 35 that was done by someone else? 36 A Yeah. I didn't -- sure, I didn't, you know, try to 37 invite certain people or not invite others. It was 38 just an openhouse type of thing and Moricetown said, 39 "Elders, go down, work with these linguists," and you 40 know, it wasn't -- I don't -- you know. 41 Q Did Alfred Joseph, was he an informant for you, was he 42 one of the 14? 43 A Oh certainly. I'm sure, you know, at some point, you 44 know, the good -- certain percentage of the time. 45 Q You worked with him for a fair percentage of the time, 4 6 didn't you? 47 A Yes, I've worked with Alfred probably more than any 11581 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 other Babine-Wet'suwet'en speaker I've worked with. 2 Second most would be Charles and Margaret Austin in 3 terms of hours. 4 Q You knew that one of the purposes for your research 5 was to corroborate an allegation that the Wet'suwet'en 6 all share a common language, that was one of the 7 things you were asked to do? 8 A No -- well, that's one way of phrasing it but, you 9 know, I -- I was asked to prepare a report and -- with 10 Rigsby on Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en linguistic relations 11 and some of those issues are external to your case 12 here, with Babine drainage being the same language as 13 Babine-Wet'suwet'en. So I -- my research interests on 14 this are really -- I don't see that they are tied to 15 any that -- I mean my research issues are Athabaskan 16 in context or -- I mean I'm approaching this as a 17 scholar who is an academic and I don't feel I have a 18 bias to prove that, you know, I'll go out there and 19 find this language so they can win their case, you 20 know. I feel I've approached this as a linguist 21 would, and a language boundary needed to be defined, 22 which is looking more -- somewhat more definitive 23 through our 1988 work which was not done for the 24 council at all. 25 Q You knew Alfred Joseph was a chief at Hagwilget? 26 A Yes. He is one of the first people I met at Hagwilget 27 in 1973. 28 Q Didn't it concern you to rely heavily on information 29 from an informant like that when one of the things 30 that you are looking for is whether or not they share 31 a common language? Didn't you want to broaden out 32 your investigation? 33 A Well, I did. 34 Q Well, you went to Hagwilget and Moricetown and 35 Hazelton. Did you go in this period to Grassy Plains? 36 A No, I didn't at that time, no. 37 Q Did you go at this time to Fort Babine? 38 A No. 39 Q Did you -- and you've never gone to Bear Lake? 40 A No, I've never gone to Bear Lake. There isn't anybody 41 up there, is there? 42 Q Well, that's, I suppose, a matter that might be argued 43 later. 44 Did you go anywhere in interviewing people, other 45 than the building where these workshops were held? 46 A In those couple of years? 47 Q Yes? 11582 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 A Well — 2 Q In interviewing those 14 informants? 3 A No, they weren't all at those workshops, no. There 4 was some at a combination of things. Probably at the 5 Hagwilget Reserve and at Moricetown. I was at some 6 homes in Moricetown, certain individuals did some 7 work, and some at the Moricetown Band Office. There 8 is a mixture of settings where I did the work and I 9 certainly, in our 1986 report, wanted to qualify what 10 I did not know about Babine-Wet'suwet'en dialects at 11 that time. I was real specific, and I had never been 12 to Takla Lake and I didn't -- actually, hadn't even -- 13 the linguistic significance of Francois Lake had -- I 14 had been unaware of it, actually, just in terms of the 15 geography. So I -- you know, I -- in our 1986 report, 16 the dialectology is incomplete and I think I stated 17 where I had been and, you know, I just hadn't done all 18 the research, you know, and we've done more now. 19 Q Grassy Plains is south of Francois Lake? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Do you know that some people in Grassy Plains claim 22 that they speak Cheslatta? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And not Wet'suwet'en? 25 A That's true. And some people speak both, sir. 26 MR. WILLMS : My lord, before I forget, 881-7? 27 THE REGIST RAR: 881-7. 28 THE COURT: Yes. 29 30 (EXHIBIT 881-7 - Letter to Mr. Overstall from Dr. Kari 31 dd. February 21, 1986) 32 33 MR. WILLMS 34 Q I'm showing you a single page, it's dated 5/16/88 at 35 the upper left-hand corner. Do you recognize this as 36 a page from your field notes? 37 A Yes. This is 1988, yes. 38 Q And so in 1988 you did go to Grassy Plains? 39 A Yes. But not at this point. This is in -- this is in 40 Smithers, this particular page, that day I was in 41 Smithers. 42 Q Right. And who -- if you look down you'll see in the 43 middle of the page tse'n, T-S-E-'-N, wet'een, 44 W-E-T-'-E-E-N, Grassy Plains and Cheslatta. What does 45 that mean? 46 A That's an ethnonym. Looks like it's an ethnonym for 47 the Cheslatta people, means "Downstream People", 11583 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 "Towards the Stream People". 2 Q Same ethnonym for the Grassy Plains people? Cheslatta 3 and Grassy Plains, they are the same ethnonym? 4 A No, that's not true. Yen wet'en is the ethnonym for 5 Francois Lake area people who are Wet'suwet'en, who 6 speak Wet'suwet'en, and this is the name for a 7 non-Wet'suwet'en speaking central Carrier group that 8 probably, I guess, is Cheslatta. I would need to -- I 9 wouldn't take the Grassy Plains town name as 10 significant, except that people have happened to move 11 there in recent times and there is -- Cheslatta Band 12 territories is what you would want to be looking at to 13 look at who are the Tse'n wet'een which is what I've 14 written here, Tse'n wet'een, T-S-E-'-N, W-E-T-'-E with 15 an accent on it -N. 16 Q But correct me if I'm wrong, but is that the name -- 17 the word there, is that a word in Wet'suwet'en? 18 A That is a Wet'suwet'en word for the Cheslatta people 19 reported, probably, by Andy and Rita George. 20 Q And the Grassy Plains people? 21 A In Smithers. 22 Q Yes. And the Grassy Plains people? 23 A No, no. There are -- the Grassy Plains people in my 24 lexicon is not a real construct in my -- Cheslatta 25 people and Francois Lake people are terms I use. I 26 don't know what the -- well, I understand your point 27 and it's a good point, and I understand what you are 28 saying, and we have clarified some things about 29 Francois Lake in our 1988 notes and you've -- you 30 are -- and that's good. 31 MR. WILLMS: Well if it's good we'll move on. We'll move back 32 to 881-7 -- oh, my lord, might this note be 881-8? 33 THE COURT: Yes. 34 35 (EXHIBIT 881-8 - Page of Dr. Kari's Handwritten Field 36 Notes) 37 38 MR. WILLMS: And I just want to turn back, Dr. Kari, you still 39 have the letter of February 21st? 40 THE REGISTRAR: The last one. 41 MR. WILLMS: 42 Q That I handed you? Yes. The very last paragraph of 43 that letter, you say -- second page, you say: 44 45 "I am sending you under separate cover a draft of 46 a paper 'Some Principles of Alaska Athabaskan 47 Toponymic Knowledge'. The ideas and methods in 11584 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 this paper relate directly to this project." 2 3 Do you have a copy of that paper? 4 A I didn't think to bring one with me, but it is 5 published. 6 Q It's published? 7 A Yeah. It's referred to when Miss Mandell went through 8 my resume and it's -- she said it -- on Monday that it 9 was one of my important articles on analysis of place 10 names. It's just been published. It just came out 11 and it's in kind of an obscure anthro-series up in 12 Alaska called "Aurora Anthropological Papers". The 13 Alaska -- or something papers of the Alaska 14 Anthropological Association, 1988 -- oh no, no, no, 15 I'm sorry, I gave you the wrong reference. This one 16 hasn't been, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. This is in press, 17 this is in press. It hasn't been published. 18 Q It's under — 19 A Yeah, I'm sorry, I was thinking of a different paper. 20 It's in press, this is coming out in "Mouton" in 21 Berlin. 22 Q Where is the closest copy of this draft? 23 A Closest copy of this draft? Well, the proofs, I have 24 the proofs in Fairbanks. It's not published. I had a 25 typescript of this now for several years, and I've 26 given it to colleagues. I -- I wrote to Overstall, 27 right, so he probably has one. 28 Q Well, I asked for copies of the enclosures in your 29 letters and I didn't get anything from my friends, so 30 I presumed Mr. Overstall doesn't have his copy of the 31 draft anymore. How difficult would it be for you to 32 find out your closest friend who has got a copy? 33 A Could I ask my colleague in the courtroom? 34 Q And who is that? 35 A Dr. Hargus, you could ask her if she has a copy. 36 MR. WILLMS: My lord, if we could break now, this is a document 37 that I -- I've asked for the enclosures in these 38 correspondence and have been met with the response 39 they just -- they are not around. 4 0 THE COURT: Yes. 41 THE WITNESS: Oh, I'm happy to supply a copy. I didn't know 42 this was an oversight, excuse me. 43 THE COURT: All right. We'll take the afternoon adjournment 44 now, if you wish. 45 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. Court will recess 46 47 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 3:00 p.m.) 11585 J. Kari (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

9 10 I hereby certify the foregoing to be 11 a true and accurate transcript of the 12 proceedings herein transcribed to the 13 best of my skill and ability. 14 15 16 17 Toni Kerekes, 18 O.R., R.P.R. 19 United Reporting Service Ltd. 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 11586 J. Kari (for Plaintiff) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 3:15) 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. 4 THE COURT: Mr. Willms. 5 MR. WILLMS: 6 Q The next piece of correspondence from your file that I 7 would like to direct your attention to, Dr. Kari, is a 8 letter of March 24th, 1986 from Dr. Rigsby to Mr. 9 Overstall, and I take it since this came from your 10 file that you've got a copy of it? 11 A Yes. 12 Q There is a reference in the second paragraph of the 13 letter to Hugh Brodie. Did you work with Hugh Brodie 14 in your report? 15 A No. 16 Q All right. Did you meet Hugh Brodie at any time 17 during the investigations that you were doing to 18 prepare the report? 19 A I had lunch with him one time when he was in Hazelton. 2 0 Q And you know that he was retained to give evidence on 21 another aspect of the case? 22 A Well, I knew, and actually I've never even talked to 23 him about his work or his -- his -- I haven't talked 24 to him about his work on the case in -- we haven't 25 talked shop. 26 Q Now, the second page of this letter refers to Dr. 27 Rigsby, refers to a contract that he signed, and I'll 28 get to your contract in a minute, but did you see -- 29 and this is just to direct your attention to it -- you 30 will see that single line after the first full 31 paragraph? 32 A Yes. 33 Q "I've signed the contract"? 34 A Um-hum. 35 Q When you got this letter did you also get a letter of 36 the contract that Dr. Rigsby signed? 37 A No. 38 Q All right. And have you ever seen the contract that 39 Dr. Rigsby signed? 4 0 A No. 41 MR. WILLMS: My lord, I would, because I have one question 42 arising out of it, would like to mark -- and maybe I 43 better mark the letter first, of March 24th, that's 44 881 -- 45 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 9. 46 MR. WILLMS: Dash 9. And Dr. Rigsby's contract as 881-10. 47 11587 J. Kari (for Plaintiff) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 EXHIBIT 881-9-Tab 9 - Letter dated March 24, 1986 2 to R. Overstall from B. Rigsby 3 4 EXHIBIT 881-10-Tab 10 - Consulting Agreement, 5 Bruce Rigsby - March 24, 1986 6 7 MR. WILLMS: 8 Q The one question that I had, and I realize that you 9 haven't seen the contract, but I'm just showing you 10 the second page of Dr. Rigsby's contract, and you will 11 see that under the item "Work", and it's under 12 subparagraph small (v)? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Point 1(a): 15 16 "This opinion will be given to the Tribal Council 17 in the form of a written report, the first draft 18 of which will be sent on or about June 1, 1986." 19 20 Just starting with Dr. Rigsby: To your knowledge did 21 Dr. Rigsby deliver a report to the Tribal Council or a 22 first draft in about that time? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Did you keep a copy of that report? 25 A The copy I brought down that has been disclosed is my 26 only draft that I have now, and it's I guess the 27 penultimate, so it's -- we did -- I can't remember in 28 terms of overwriting files on the word processor, 29 there weren't but too many drafts, but the one I 30 brought you is the penultimate, and I have an original 31 handwritten marginalia by Bruce or Overstall or 32 myself, and you're welcome to look through the 33 document. That's all I have in the way of drafts. I 34 don't think it's as early as the first one though. 35 Q All right. 36 A It's -- I can't say even sure, it may be the June 37 draft. Is there a date on what I brought you, I 38 haven't even looked at it. 39 Q I haven't had a chance to look at it either, I got it 40 late last night. 41 A I didn't notice where -- I mean I also can relate to 42 the wording that the gentleman for the Federal 43 Government raised about the editorial process and 44 Overstall's role, I can talk about that. 45 Q The -- just getting to June 1986, can I put it this 46 way, and I realize that I can't deal with it right 47 now, but whatever drafts you have you've delivered to 115? J. Kari (for Plaintiff) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 counsel and we now have them? 2 A Yes. I've been completely forthcoming, and my 3 correspondence here I gave you isn't even a letter to 4 me, it's a letter from Bruce to Overstall. I happened 5 to have a copy. I gave you that too. 6 Q Now, had you sent a draft as early as that, or was 7 this just Dr. Rigsby? 8 A No. We had all the pieces together in rough form, I 9 think the appendices came a bit later, but we -- the 10 draft was essentially all the sections you've got in 11 the final version except that there were editorial 12 changes through that span of time. 13 MR. WILLMS: All right. Well, I'll leave that for later when 14 I've had a chance to read through the draft. The next 15 letter is a letter of April 12. 16 THE COURT: Are you putting in the agreement? 17 MR. WILLMS: Oh, I think — 18 THE COURT: All right. That's number 10. 19 MR. WILLMS: 881-10, my lord. 20 MS. MANDELL: My lord, if I could here rise, this Agreement was 21 provided to my friends along with all the other 22 consultant contracts prior to your ruling on the 7th 23 of November, and it's for that reason that the amount 24 is blacked out. There's nothing to be drawn by it, it 25 was just an earlier disclosure than the ruling, and if 26 your lordship or my friends are interested in having 27 the amount re-added, I can find out what it is. 28 THE COURT: Well, I don't need to know. 29 MR. WILLMS: I'm not going to make anything of the amount, my 30 lord. 31 THE COURT: All right, thank you. 32 MR. WILLMS: 33 Q The next piece of correspondence is a letter from 34 yourself to Richard Overstall and Antonia Mills of 35 April 12th, 1986. And in this letter you refer to in 36 this first line of the second paragraph: 37 38 "Thank you for sending the Kobrinsky diss. I now 39 have a box full of articles on the area." 40 41 What were you referring to? 42 A Kobrinsky dissertation, what was it, Calgary in the 43 mid '70's. 44 Q Are you aware of Dr. Kobrinsky's work in the area? 45 A Well, I have actually only -- I have a very faded 46 Xerox of part of his dissertation, and I have one of 47 his published articles from about 1979. 11589 J. Kari (for Plaintiff) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 Q You have his article that's entitled the 2 Tsimshianization of the Carrier Indians? 3 A Yes. 4 MR. WILLMS: My lord, before I turn to that, maybe we could mark 5 this letter 881-13. 6 THE REGISTRAR: 881-11. 7 Q Oh, 881-11. 8 THE COURT: Yes. 9 10 EXHIBIT 881-11-Tab 11 - Letter dated April 12, 11 1986 to R. Overstall and Ms. Mills from J. Kari 12 13 A I haven't read it in quite awhile. 14 MR. WILLMS: 15 Q Perhaps you can identify -- I'm showi ng you the 16 Tsimshianization of the Carrier India ns . 17 A Yes. 18 Q This is the article by Dr. Kobrinsky that you just 19 mentioned a minute ago? 20 A Yeah, '77, 1977. 21 Q And you refer to him in your report. You know that 22 Dr. Kobrinsky worked in the same area that you and Dr. 23 Rigsby worked in? 24 A I believe Kobrinsky worked at Babine Lake but not 25 Bulkley River, isn't that correct? H is field work was 26 at Babine Lake but not at -- in the W et'suwet'en area; 27 is that not correct? 28 Q Well, the only reason why he's talkin g about the 29 Tsimshianization of the Carrier India ns -- 30 A Yes. 31 Q Assuming that there's some -- 32 THE COURT: It talks about the book right about the third line, 33 MR. WILLMS: Oh, yes. But there's other refere nces. Perhaps 34 maybe we can go through, mark this 1-12, my lord. 35 THE COURT: Yes. This is 1979, is it? 36 MR. WILLMS: It's 1977, my lord. 37 THE COURT: All right, thank you. That's 12 38 39 EXHIBIT 881-12-Tab 12 - Article "The 40 Tsimshianization of the Carrier Indians" by V.H. 41 Kobrinsky 42 43 MR. WILLMS: 44 Q In fact, you refer to this report in your 1989 paper 45 on Babine-Wet'suwet'en? 46 A Yes. 47 Q That's the paper that's been marked Exhibit 880? 11590 J. Kari (for Plaintiff) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 A Yes. 2 Q Yes. Now, if you drop down to the third paragraph of 3 Dr. Kobrinsky's paper -- 4 A Third paragraph, the first page? 5 Q The first page. He says this: 6 7 "On the other hand, there are rather weighty 8 ethnographic indications - to be reviewed below - 9 of the recency of matrilineal divisions among the 10 northwest Carrier. In spite of my great 11 admiration for the efforts of Aberle and Dyen" -- 12 13 I'm just pausing there. That's another reference in 14 your 1989 paper? 15 A He transposed the reference. It's Dyen and Aberle. 16 Q Dyen and Aberle. But it's something you're familiar 17 with? 18 A You bet. 19 Q 20 "I prefer this evidence and I am further guided by 21 it to the conclusion that the contemporary 22 system of two-tier matrilineal divisions 23 (so-called phratries and clans) arose among the 24 northwest Carrier, along with classes, ranks, 25 crests and potlatches, during the protohistoric 26 period in the context of the growing 27 white-oriented fur trade." 28 29 A Yes. 30 Q Now, do you accept that characterization, at least 31 from the linguistic perspective? 32 A Do I agree with Kobrinsky or Dyen and Aberle? I agree 33 with Dyen and Aberle, and Delagune(Phonetics) in 1975 34 as well in this whole genre of literature. I don't 35 accept Kobrinsky's thesis. 36 Q Oh, he carries on: 37 38 "The phratries and clans overlie older name 39 divisions which Morice had called septs. These, I 40 suggest, had developed as an elaboration of an 41 ancient system of regional bands. Under the 42 demographic stimulus of a newly-adapted salmon 43 economy immigrant bands budded into a series of 44 village-centred segments loosely affiliated under 45 a common blanket identity." 46 47 Now, do you accept that from Dr. Kobrinsky? 11591 J. Kari (for Plaintiff) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 A Well, no. There's no -- I could show you a 2 counter-argument, if you want me to -- 3 Q Well, the counter-argument is the one made by Dyen and 4 Aberle? 5 A No. Dyen and Aberle don't address the argument here 6 about the band names and the sept names, I don't think 7 that's anywhere in Dyen and Aberle anyway. I mean the 8 matrilineality is the counter-argument in Dyen and 9 Aberle, but Dyen and Aberle have never marshalled this 10 kind of evidence in their book and Kobrinsky does, and 11 I'm a linguist and Kobrinsky's not, so I could comment 12 on the linguistic content of this article is very 13 vague, and it's -- he's obviously talking to speakers 14 at Babine and Wet'suwet'en, assuming Babine and 15 Wet'suwet'en is accurately written, there's no 16 accurate etymologies given except through the work of 17 interpreters and speakers themselves. I'm not saying 18 it's not real field work or not good field work, it is 19 good field work, but there's no linguistic control 20 over its information. And he has a good problem here, 21 it's a good Ph.D. type of problem, and legitimate 22 problem. 23 Q Just dealing with names, maybe you can put your 24 concerns, you know, focus them on his references on 25 the next page, on page 202, where he discusses the 26 sept system. And first of all, can I start with this, 27 are you aware of the sept names recorded by Morice? 28 A Yes. 29 Q Yes, all right. 30 A It's sept names meaning the regional ethnonyms in 31 Morice 1893, yes. I actually have it right here in my 32 green bag. 33 Q All right. So that then he starts off under names 34 reviewing some literature and says this, that: 35 36 "Morice recorded nine sept names together with 37 their severally subtended villages. These same 38 divisions appear in Jenness' map of Carrier 39 "Subtribes" and Duff's list of "tribes" with a few 40 minor inconsistencies." 41 42 Now, just stopping there. That's an accurate 43 assessment of Morice, Duff and Jenness; do you agree 44 with that? 45 A Yes. 46 Q Yes? 47 A Yes. Morice, Duff and Jenness do not present a 11592 J. Kari (for Plaintiff) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 congruent or coherent picture. There are 2 inconsistencies amongst Morice, Duff and Jenness, but 3 yes, those are standard sources on co-called Carrier 4 sept names. 5 Q And then he says this: 6 7 "I have opted for the term sept, incidentally, to 8 avoid connotation of politically-integrating 9 institutions such as chieftains and councils which 10 were lacking in the precontact era." 11 12 Then he cites Morice and Jenness. Now, that's an 13 accurate reflection of Morice and Jenness' work. I 14 mean your own research of Morice and Jenness confirms 15 that. 16 A Could you -- my own work? I'm sorry, I would like you 17 to ask or to restate your -- my work confirms what 18 about Morice? 19 Q You've reviewed Morice? 20 A Yes. 21 Q You've reviewed Jenness? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Dr. Kobrinsky has reviewed Morice and Jenness, who are 24 the people who actually collected field notes, 25 correct; they actually went out and interviewed people 26 and made notes about it? 27 A And so do I. 28 Q Yes. But they did too? 29 A Yes. 30 Q Early on? 31 A Yes. 32 Q Earlier than you? 33 A Yes. 34 Q And Kobrinsky says reviewing these works by Morice and 35 Jenness, that institutions politically integrating 36 institutions such as chieftains and councils were 37 lacking in the precontact era. What I'm asking you is 38 whether -- just sticking with -- not your research but 39 just the review, his comment on Morice and Jenness, is 40 that accurate -- an accurate reflection of Morice and 41 Jenness' work? 42 A I don't think Morice has any strong position in Morice 43 1893 that pertains to Wet'suwet'en, because his data 44 is all reported, especially that early in his career, 45 from Stewart Lake. It's the Central Carrier that are 46 the subject of Morice 1893, not the Wet'suwet'en. 47 They just happened to be one name on a map, but the 11593 J. Kari (for Plaintiff) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 linguistic evidence marshalled in 1893 to be brought 2 to bear with, say, Wet'suwet'en and Jenness 1943 is a 3 good illustration of how the anthropological community 4 has been dealing with fictitious constructs of a 5 monolithic Carrier language, and then people like 6 Kobrinsky getting in trouble comparing earlier 7 literature based on different people and making 8 references about other people. So Morice 1893 to 9 be -- to present a characterization of -- of the 10 aboriginal social structure of the Wet'suwet'en is 11 really comparing apples and oranges in terms of Morice 12 1893. I mean Kobrinsky has a good problem here in 13 terms of his dissertation problem and his paper, but 14 the Tsimshianization of the Carrier is in itself -- 15 the title of the paper itself shows an 16 over-simplification of the ethnic boundaries and 17 language boundaries in the area, as well as his lack 18 of control of the linguistic information in Babine 19 Lake. He obviously doesn't know which language he's 20 hearing there. 21 THE COURT: Is Kobrinsky an anthropologist? 22 A Yes. I believe so. I don't know what his title is or 23 his address is, I've never met the man. Is he in 24 Alberta? 25 MR. WILLMS: 26 Q Well, he's -- you referred to him. 27 A Yeah. I've never met him. 2 8 Q Didn't you know who he was when you referred to him? 29 A Not personally, I've never met the man. I've just 30 seen his article like you have, and I'm responding as 31 another specialist on this -- in these sources. 32 Q Well, on one of the sources, and I -- it appears that 33 the other exhibit isn't in the court, but it's Exhibit 34 847-13, which is a plaintiff's exhibit filed during, I 35 believe, the evidence of Miss Albright. And the 36 Jenness reference is in there, and you will see that 37 in Exhibit 881-12 on page 202 there were two 38 references: Morice 1893, Jenness 1943, page 481. 39 Could that be exhibit -- 40 THE REGISTRAR: That's 847? 41 MR. WILLMS: 847. 42 THE REGISTRAR: Tab? 43 MR. WILLMS: 13. 44 MR. WILLMS: 45 Q And I have another copy here for his lordship. You're 46 familiar with this paper by Jenness? 47 A Yes, yes. 11594 J. Kari (for Plaintiff) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 Q And you'll see that the reference by Dr. Kobrinsky is 2 to Jenness 1943, page 481. And could you turn to page 3 481 of the plaintiff's Exhibit 847 tab 13. 4 A Yes. 5 Q If you look at the bottom of that page, page 481, you 6 will see this, a reference by Jenness: 7 8 "Among these surrounding peoples the Bulkley 9 Indians, like a many-tentacled cephalopod, had 10 wandering feelers gathering sustenance that 11 enriched the community's life. Yet there was 12 no central nervous system to co-ordinate the 13 movements of the feelers and to assimilate or 14 reject their booty, no ruling chief or established 15 council to control the actions of the different 16 families and govern their relations with the 17 outside world. Like other Carrier subtribes the 18 Bulkley natives were divided into a number 19 of fraternities or phratries, each intimately 20 associated with the other, yet politically 21 independent. The phratries assembled and lived 22 together at the same fishing places each season, 23 they joined in common feasts and ceremonies, and 24 they united at times to repel a common danger; but 25 they all owned separate hunting territories to 26 which their members repaired for the winter 27 months, and they associated at will with foreign 28 peoples even when these might be hostile to others 29 of their countrymen." 30 31 Now, referring back to Morice and Jenness, I'm going 32 to put the question: Hasn't Dr. Kobrinsky accurately 33 set out at least Jenness; I don't have Morice right 34 here? 35 A I do here. 36 Q Well, if you want to refer to Morice -- 37 A If you would like my copy marked. 38 Q Feel free. 39 A Oh, no, excuse me, I just have the map for Morice 40 1893, I don't have the whole article, but excuse me. 41 Q Well, I don't know whether or not -- I mean I've -- 42 are you saying still that Dr. Kobrinsky's assessment 43 is wrong, you disagree with Dr. Kobrinsky's 44 assesment? 45 A Well, our January paper here does address questions of 46 classification of -- of Carrier and Babine as a 47 distinct language or as a dialect, and of Carrier, and 11595 J. Kari (for Plaintiff) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 Kobrinsky's paper is a case of someone getting really 2 in hot water or over his head here in terms of citing 3 Morice on the one hand to prove an argument, and 4 that's really a different people, and Morice didn't 5 use the term "Babine" for his -- the bulk of his data, 6 and in Morice 1893 he does refer to Carrier, and 7 that's Central Carrier, and I explained how Jenness 8 and Barbeau in the 20's started applying the term 9 Carrier to the Bulkley River. I believe Jenness did 10 his work in 1924 in Hagwilget, and this is -- of 11 course he was the senior Canadian anthropologist at 12 that time and he's an ethnographer, and this is real 13 important data to Hagwilget and it's definitely good 14 documentation of matrilineal society in Hagwilget in 15 1924. Does Jenness take a position that they weren't 16 matrilineal before contact? I don't think Jenness 17 would have said that. Kobrinsky says that. 18 Q The point I'm suggesting here, and -- is that 19 institutions such as chieftains and councils were 20 lacking in the precontact era. That's the only 21 suggestion I'm making. 22 A Oh, that Jenness is asserting that, yes. 23 Q Yes. 24 A Yes. Are you asking my opinion of that? 25 THE COURT: No. Kobrinsky says — 26 MR. WILLMS: 27 Q Yes, Kobrinsky says that, and I am -- I asked you 28 whether you agreed with Kobrinsky's assessment of 29 Morice and Jenness, who were the people who went out 30 and actually did the field work, and I thought you 31 said no, but I will ask it again after referring you 32 to the extract from Jenness. Kobrinsky's assessment 33 of these peoples' field work, Morice and Jenness, was 34 that politically integrating institutions such as 35 chieftains and council were lacking in the precontact 36 era. Now, if you work from Jenness' material and 37 Morice's material as cited by Kobrinsky, is that a 38 fair inference to draw, or is Kobrinsky out in left 39 field? 40 A Well, yes. It's correct that Kobrinsky is citing 41 Jenness' assertion here. I don't agree with Jenness' 42 assertion here, that's another point. 43 Q Well, that's the point I'm getting at. 44 A But I'm not a social anthropologist, by the way, I'm a 45 linguist, and this is -- and I have no academic 46 training in anthropology, by the way. I'm not -- I 47 mean Kobrinsky has a Ph.D. in anthropology from the 11596 J. Kari (for Plaintiff) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 University of Calgary, I don't have a Ph.D. in 2 anthropology, my Ph.D. is in education. 3 Q Maybe we can carry on, because Dr. Kobrinsky now 4 starts to dabble in language and linguistics. He says 5 in the second paragraph: "The names", referring to 6 the sept names: 7 8 "are constructed from a root element which 9 typically denotes a lake or river on a suffix." 10 11 And then it's spelled -H-W-I-D-E-Y-N-I-Y: 12 13 "applicable in principle to any place name meaning 14 simply 'the people of. Thus, the Bulkley River 15 sept is named Hwitso hwideyniy, meaning 'people 16 of the Hwitso wits n (i.e. 'spider') River'." 17 18 Now, is that -- have you gone further than that, or is 19 he completely out to lunch there? 20 A He's out to lunch. 21 Q He's out to lunch? 22 A Yes. That's the name, Hwitso wits n, has nothing to 23 do with spiders, but that's the river directional 24 system that appears in my appendix G, and also that 25 "Ts n" term that he just mentioned about -- he has a 26 false etymology. Maybe someone told him that speaker 27 through a folk etymology, that's probably what this 28 is . 29 Q So let's break it down into the prefix and the suffix. 30 The suffix does mean "people of", "-hwideyniy"? 31 A This is true. This is in Alaska, it's the same thing. 32 Q The prefix he's a bit off the mark. Can you -- is 33 that a Wet'suwet'en word? 34 A Yes. 35 Q Hwitso wits n? What is the Wet'suwet'en word for 36 spider? 37 A Is it Nay quil ge(phonetics)? 38 Q Could you spell that? 39 A I'm wrong. I know it in Alaska, and I can think of 40 half a dozen words for spider, and I can guess. My 41 memory isn't that good. 42 THE COURT : What does Whitso mean? 43 A It means the "Whi" is an area or region, and the "tso" 44 is toward the water, and people toward the water, and 45 then the "Wits n" is "the people", "the people", and 46 the "Wits n" is a very common term in ethnonyms 47 throughout the Athabaskan language area, all the way 11597 J. Kari (for Plaintiff) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 throughout Canada and Alaska. 2 MR. WILLMS: 3 Q Yeah. He goes through and talks about a few more 4 place names in that paragraph and then concludes the 5 paragraph by saying: 6 7 "In sum, Carrier sept taxonomy is essentially a 8 geographic taxonomy -- for the most part 9 hydraulic -- upon which people appear as a 10 deletable appendage." 11 12 A What does he mean by that last statement? 13 Q Well, what I suggest that he means, and if this isn't 14 your understanding please tell me, but that -- the 15 place name is "people of a lake", the people may come 16 and go, individuals may come and go, but the name of 17 the people who live by that lake will always be that 18 name. Now, is that a fair summary of the naming 19 within the Babine-Wet'suwet'en area? 20 A Well, I wouldn't make or write a summary like 21 Kobrinsky has, I would bring up different kinds of 22 evidence, but it's a -- it's a semi-sophisticated 23 argument based on, you know, really very elementary 24 notion of Athabaskan languages. So, you know, he 25 can't really go that far unless he's done a lot of 26 work with Athabaskan ethnonymy and ethnonyms and 27 autonyms in different Athabaskan languages and things 28 like that, which I've done a lot of in different 29 areas. It's an interesting question. 30 Q I'm showing you a page from your field notes. First 31 of all, this is your writing? 32 A Yes. 33 Q And — 34 A I don't remember where this is from, which date. Do 35 you, sir? 36 Q I don't know either. It's number 49, it's the 49th 37 page in what we got, so -- 38 A Or which speakers these are? I would need -- depends 39 what you want to refer from this, but -- 40 Q What I would like to ask you about in terms of the 41 name of the place followed by "wet'een, you will see 42 the second line down, you have Baabiin, B-A-A-B-I-I-N, 43 the Babine people, correct? 44 A Yeah. This would require a comment, because there are 45 several multiple ethnonyms for the Babine people. 46 This one is a French blend, by the way, French 47 Athabaskan blend, and is not accepted as a precontact 1159? J. Kari (for Plaintiff) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 ethnic -- Babine speakers sometimes use this name 2 Baabiin wet'een, it's sort of a nickname for them 3 based on the place name. 4 THE COURT: I think what you said was it's not accepted as a 5 precontact name or -- 6 A Yes. It's not accepted as a precontact name for the 7 Babine people. 8 MR. WILLMS: 9 Q In fact, as you point out in your report, the people 10 were termed this by Father Morice? 11 A In my report I said no -- no, no. I said Father 12 Morice did an analysis of the name Babine. I didn't 13 say he gave them that name, I don't -- I think it's 14 earlier than Morice, so this is very early that this 15 developed. The name Babine developed probably by 1815 16 if not 1810, way before Morice's time. 17 Q Okay. Can you turn -- 18 A Morice does have etymologies of Babine and so forth. 19 MR. WILLMS: Could you turn in your report to page 50, that's 20 Exhibit 877. 21 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 2 in? 22 MR. WILLMS: Tab 2, the — 23 THE COURT: What page, please. 24 MR. WILLMS: 25 Q Page 50. You will see you discuss Morice at page 50, 26 and then you say just before you get into the indent 27 you say: 28 29 "In his 1892-93 article, 'Notes Archaeological, 30 Industrial, and Sociological on the Western 31 Denes', Morice listed the band names in the 32 general region with this comment on the people he 33 termed 'Babine', a French term for pendulous 34 lips." 35 3 6 A Um-hum. 37 Q I understood from that, and correct me if I'm wrong, 38 that the name for the Babine people was a name that 39 Father Morice termed? 40 A I believe it's older than that. My phrasing might be 41 ambiguous on that in my report, but I think early maps 42 of British Columbia would bear that it's -- probably 43 real early, would say 1815, 1810. 44 Q One thing about the term "Babine", there's no question 45 that the term "Babine" is historic? 46 A Yes. 47 MR. WILLMS: Yes. My lord, I'm going to turn back to the 11599 J. Kari (for Plaintiff) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 Kobrinsky article, but perhaps we could mark the note 2 as 881-13. 3 THE COURT: All right. 4 5 EXHIBIT 881-13-Tab 13 - Copy one page from undated 6 field notes 7 8 MR. WILLMS: 9 Q Now, the next -- if you turn to page 206 of the 10 Kobrinsky -- Dr. Kobrinsky's article, where Dr. 11 Kobrinsky is talking about the Origin of Phratries and 12 Clans, he in the fourth paragraph down from the title, 13 "The origin of Phratries and Clans" on page 206? 14 A 206. 15 Q Dr. Kobrinsky says this: 16 17 "There is a hint of recency in the fact, reported 18 by Jenness, that many titles and crests of 19 Tsimshian derivation were in use by the Bulkley 20 Carrier without the least knowledge of their 21 'origin or real significance'." 22 23 And just pausing there, that -- first of all, let's 24 break it down into two parts. That's an accurate 25 reflection of what Jenness said? Before we get into 26 your views, that accurately reflects Jenness? 27 A Let me have you point to which sentence you're 28 reading. 29 Q The sentence I just read: 30 31 "many titles and crests of Tsimshian derivation 32 were in use by the Bulkley Carrier without the 33 least knowledge of their 'origin or real 34 significance'." 35 36 That's the sentence I just read to you. 37 THE COURT: Is that quotation from Jenness? 38 A I'm sorry, which paragraph? I'm sorry, I'm a little 39 tired. 40 THE COURT: Penultimate paragraph on page 206. 41 MR. WILLMS: 42 Q Yes. It's the last full paragraph at the bottom of 43 the page? 44 A Yes. 45 Q And I read you the first sentence? 46 A Morice -- I mean Jenness says that on page 495. Well, 47 Jenness was not a linguist either. 11600 J. Kari (for Plaintiff) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 THE COURT: Well, he's not — 2 MS. MANDELL: Perhaps 495 can be put to the witness. 3 MR. WILLMS: 4 Q I would like to do that but it wasn't put in by my 5 friend, so I just noticed that. 6 A Yes. I could comment on this, sir, I would be glad to 7 comment on this. 8 Q Well, let's -- I'll come back to whether you agree 9 with this characterization of Jenness, but let me put 10 it to you this way: What evidence, what linguistic 11 evidence did you find that showed the knowledge of the 12 origin or significance of titles and crests in 13 Babine-Wet'suwet'en? 14 A Well, I have worked with that vocabulary and people 15 are very knowledgeable about whether let's say an 16 Athabaskan origin name or sometimes a Gitksan origin 17 name, and they etymologize the names quite accurately 18 in either direction and show sophisticated 19 bilingualism, and Jenness' position sounds extremely 20 deprecatory of their language skills in terms of 21 Athabaskan knowledge of Gitksan, which was certainly 22 not -- I mean if certain elders are as good at Gitksan 23 today in 1989, they certainly were just as good and 24 knowledgeable of Gitksan in 1922 or '24, and so he in 25 terms of -- he's not doing linguistic work, he's doing 26 ethnographic work, and he's making judgment calls 27 about language skills and he has no ethnological 28 control over either Gitksan or Athabaskan, such as 29 Rigsby and I do when we collaborate, or the 30 sophisticated dialogue that took place even as 31 recently as yesterday evening with Dora and Alfred and 32 I over Gitksan and Athabaskan etymologies bears out 33 the fact that Wet'suwet'en speakers do know Gitksan 34 language very intimately. So I could say right this 35 week I've got counter-evidence to Jenness 1943, very 36 sophisticated etymologies. Another way I could 37 respond to that was last summer with Caisnel Williams, 38 you can see in our -- Caisnel Williams, I believe it's 39 C-A-I-S-N-E-L, an old man who lives in Burns Lake 40 who's from up in Babine Lake, and we talked about 41 personal names. He's from over in Babine Lake, not 42 Hagwilget or Moricetown, and he started naming 43 people's names, just people around the community and 44 their traditional names, their titles, and some of the 45 names are Athabaskan and some of the names are 46 Gitksan, and he etymologizes them all very sensitively 47 and carefully and has a -- so the man -- this case way 11601 J. Kari (for Plaintiff) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 over there in Babine Lake also has a very 2 sophisticated knowledge of Gitksan in terms of his 3 ability to explain means and Gitksan personal names 4 and that sort of thing. 5 MR. WILLMS: If I could, I will ask one question, my lord, and 6 then -- 7 THE COURT: Sure, go ahead. 8 MR. WILLMS: 9 Q Do you have your report? Turn to page 52 of your 10 report, tab 2. You note at the bottom of the page 11 that the anthropologists who have worked in the area, 12 Jenness, Goldman, Stewart, Kobrinsky, do not directly 13 address the questions of language versus dialect in 14 the general area. Now, that is the issue that you 15 addressed, correct, language versus dialect? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Is that correct? But in respect of the rest of the 18 issues that they addressed, those are overlapping 19 issues between linguistics and anthropology, aren't 20 they, the meaning of the history of the crests, the 21 origin of place names and things like that, there's an 22 overlap, isn't there? 23 A Oh, there is in terms of -- yes. 24 Q Your specialty is being able to linguistically define 25 a speaking group and whether it's a language or a 26 dialect, correct? 27 A Yes. 28 Q All right. But when you get into these other points 29 that Dr. Kobrinsky is making, which are also included 30 in your report and in yours and Dr. Rigsby's report, 31 there's an overlap there between anthropology and 32 linguistics? 33 A Right. 34 THE COURT: All right, we'll adjourn then. I'm reminded that I 35 have to preside at a ceremony for the retirement of 36 Mr. Justice Aikins tomorrow morning, and I think it 37 starts at 9:30 and I should be finished shortly after 38 10:00, but I think it might be the course of wisdom if 39 we adjourn until 10:30. 40 MR. WILLMS: All right. My lord, one point, my friend has 41 located the second document referred to in the earlier 42 submission, and if your lordship could take it with 43 you and whenever it's convenient for your lordship to 44 determine whether it's privileged or not. 45 THE COURT: Yes, all right. I'll be glad to look at it, thank 46 you. All right, 10:30 then. Thank you. 47 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. Court will adjourn until 10:30 11602 J. Kari (for Plaintiff) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms

1 tomorrow. 2 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 4:00) 3 4 I hereby certify the foregoing to be 5 a true and accurate transcript of the 6 proceedings herein transcribed to the 7 best of my skill and ability 8 9 10 11 12 Graham D. Parker 13 Official Reporter 14 United Reporting Service Ltd. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47