THE FIRST MEETING OF THE SECOND SESSION OF THE TWELFTH PARLIAMENT WEDNESDAY 09 DECEMBER 2020

ENGLISH VERSION HANSARD NO: 200 THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY SPEAKER The Hon. Phandu T. C. Skelemani PH, MP. DEPUTY SPEAKER The Hon. Mabuse M. Pule, MP. (Mochudi East)

Clerk of the National Assembly - Ms B. N. Dithapo Deputy Clerk of the National Assembly - Mr L. T. Gaolaolwe Learned Parliamentary Counsel - Ms M. Mokgosi Assistant Clerk (E) - Mr R. Josiah CABINET His Excellency Dr M. E. K. Masisi, MP. - President

His Honour S. Tsogwane, MP. (Boteti West) - Vice President Minister for Presidential Affairs, Governance and Public Hon. K. N. S. Morwaeng, MP. (Molepolole South) - Administration

Hon. K. T. Mmusi, MP. (Gabane-Mmankgodi) - Minister of Defence, Justice and Security Hon. Dr L. Kwape, MP. (Kanye South) - Minister of International Affairs and Cooperation Hon. E. M. Molale, MP. (Goodhope-Mabule ) - Minister of Local Government and Rural Development Hon. K. S. Gare, MP. (Moshupa-Manyana) - Minister of Agricultural Development and Food Security Minister of Environment, Natural Resources Conservation Hon. P. K. Kereng, MP. (Specially Elected) - and Tourism Hon. Dr E. G. Dikoloti MP. (Mmathethe-Molapowabojang) - Minister of Health and Wellness Hon. T.M. Segokgo, MP. (Tlokweng) - Minister of Transport and Communications Hon. K. Mzwinila, MP. (Specially Elected) - Minister of Land Management, Water and Sanitation Services Minister of Youth Empowerment, Sport and Culture Hon. T. M. Rakgare, MP. (Mogoditshane) - Development

Hon. A. M. Mokgethi, MP. (Gaborone Bonnington North) - Minister of Nationality, Immigration and Gender Affairs Hon. Dr T. Matsheka, MP. (Lobatse) - Minister of Finance and Economic Development Hon. F. M. M. Molao, MP. (Shashe West) - Minister of Basic Education Minister of Tertiary Education, Research, Science and Hon. Dr D. Letsholathebe, MP. (Tati East) - Technology Minister of Mineral Resources, Green Technology and Hon. L. M. Moagi, MP. (Ramotswa) - Energy Security

Hon. P. O. Serame, MP. (Specially Elected) - Minister of Investment, Trade and Industry Minister of Employment, Labour Productivity and Skills Hon. M. Balopi, MP. (Gaborone North) - Development

Hon. M. Kgafela, MP. (Mochudi West) - Minister of Infrastructure and Housing Development

Assistant Minister, Presidential Affairs, Governance and Hon. D. M. Mthimkhulu, MP. (Gaborone South) - Public Administration Assistant Minister, Local Government and Rural Hon. K. K. Autlwetse, MP. (Specially Elected) - Development Assistant Minister, Local Government and Rural Hon. S. N. Modukanele, MP. (Lerala -Maunatlala) - Development Assistant Minister, Agricultural Development and Food Hon. B. Manake, MP. (Specially Elected) - Security

Hon. S. Lelatisitswe, MP. (Boteti East) - Assistant Minister, Health and Wellness

Hon. N. W. T. Makwinja, MP. (Lentsweletau-Mmopane) - Assistant Minister, Basic Education

Hon. M. S. Molebatsi, MP. (Mmadinare) - Assistant Minister, Investment, Trade and Industry Assistant Minister, Youth Empowerment, Sport and Culture Hon. H. B. Billy, MP. (Francistown East) - Development Hon. M. R. Shamukuni, MP. (Chobe) - Assistant Minister,Tertiary Education, Research, Science and Technology MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT AND THEIR CONSTITUENCIES

Names Constituency

RULING PARTY (Botswana Democratic Party) Hon. L. Kablay, MP. (Government Whip) Letlhakeng-Lephephe Hon. Dr U. Dow, MP. Specially Elected Hon. M. R. Reatile, MP. Jwaneng-Mabutsane Hon. P. Majaga, MP. Nata-Gweta Hon. J. S. Brooks, MP. Kgalagadi South Hon. C. Greeff, MP. Gaborone Bonnington South Hon. T. Letsholo, MP. Kanye North Hon. T. F. Leuwe, MP. Takatokwane Hon. T. Mangwegape-Healy, MP. Gaborone Central Hon. S. N. Moabi, MP. Tati West Hon. T. Monnakgotla, MP. Kgalagadi North Hon. P. K. Motaosane, MP. Thamaga-Kumakwane Hon. O. Regoeng, MP. Molepolole North Hon. J. L. Thiite, MP. Ghanzi North OPPOSITION (Umbrella for Democratic Change) Hon. D. Saleshando, MP. (Leader of the Opposition) Maun West Hon. A. Lesaso, MP. (Acting Opposition Whip) Shoshong Hon. D. L. Keorapetse, MP. Selebi Phikwe West Hon. Y. Boko, MP Mahalapye East Hon. Dr K. Gobotswang, MP. Sefhare-Ramokgonami Hon. C. K. Hikuama, MP. Ngami Hon. K. K. Kapinga, MP Okavango Hon. G. Kekgonegile, MP. Maun East Hon. P. P. P. Moatlhodi, MP. Tonota Hon. T. B. Lucas, MP. Bobonong Hon. M. G. J. Motsamai, MP. Ghanzi South Hon. K. Nkawana, MP. Selebi Phikwe East Hon. O. Ramogapi, MP. Palapye Hon. Dr N. Tshabang, MP. Nkange Hon. D. Tshere, MP. Mahalapye West Hon. M. I. Moswaane, MP. Francistown West (Botswana Patriotic Front) Hon. T. S. Khama, MP. Serowe West Hon. L. Lesedi, MP. Serowe South Hon. B. Mathoothe, MP. Serowe North (Alliance for Progressives) Hon. W. B. Mmolotsi, MP. Francistown South TABLE OF CONTENTS THE FIRST MEETING OF THE SECOND SESSION OF THE TWELFTH PARLIAMENT WEDNESDAY 09 DECEMBER, 2020

CONTENTS PAGE (S)

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER...... 1- 8

BUSINESS MOTION...... 9-14

Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2020 (No. 14 of 2020) Second Reading (Resumed Debate)...... 15- 52 Wednesday 9th December, 2020 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

Wednesday 9th December, 2020 This project was completed in February 2018 and targeted 44 farmers occupying about 800 hectares of THE ASSEMBLY met at 2:00 p.m. land. If fully utilized, we expect this area to create a (THE SPEAKER in the Chair) minimum of 2400 jobs. To date 39 farmers have applied for electricity connection while twenty-one (22) have P R A Y E R S paid and are connected. They payed about P15, 000 for electricity connection and on average, the farmers * * * * at Bobirwa usually pay around P300, 000, but they MR SPEAKER (MR SKELEMANI): Order! Order! are now going to pay at least about P15, 000 only. 11 Honourable Members, good afternoon. Let us start our farmers have already started paying while others are business with questions. still looking for money. QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER Another thing which our ministry is facilitating regarding infrastructural development through our partnership ROAD INFRASTRUCTURE AND with Ministry of Investment, Trade and Industry is AGRICULTURAL PROJECTS IN BOBIRWA that they awarded a tender to a company called Selebi Phikwe Citrus Project and they are going to be holding MR T. B. LUCAS (BOBONONG): Asked the Minister a ground breaking ceremony on Friday. This company is of Agricultural Development and Food Security to state: going to build a pack house infrastructure of the world (i) efforts made in the Bobirwa Sub-District to class. This facility is going to be used by farmers who develop infrastructure that links production will be in a citrus cluster those who are in Bobirwa centres in the area with markets or major trading Sub-District, which houses Mmadinare and Bobonong. centres in the sub-district; Additionally, they are going to be able to access the export market in other countries so that they can plant (ii) if there are any future plans to develop road oranges or fruits from the orange family thorough the infrastructure that links Bobirwa villages with knowledge and skills they get from this company. major farming areas in the sub-district; and

(iii) if there are any plans to divert water from Thune (ii) Another thing is, Ministry of Agriculture had Dam for use in agricultural projects especially at planned to gravel the Bobonong to Mosalakwane places where pipelines from the dam pass in close road in the financial year 2020/2021. The evaluation for the tender was suspended when we proximity to farming areas. got attacked by COVID-19 pandemic. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF AGRICULTURAL (iii) Mr Speaker, plans to divert water from the Thune DEVELOPMENT AND FOOD SECURITY (MS Dam in order to facilitate the agricultural sector MANAKE): Good afternoon and thank you Mr Speaker. are as follows; Good afternoon Honourable Members. • Irrigation of MOLEMA Trust project; (i) Mr Speaker, Ministry of Agriculture has already MOLEMA houses Mathathane, Motlhabaneng started coming up with some infrastructure in some and Lentswelemoriti that is why they called areas in Bobirwa Sub-District. In 2000, Ministry themselves MOLEMA Trust. It will cover an area of Agriculture constructed and handed Boasa of 105.5 hectares (ha) where they are going to plant Boapele Horticultural Market to the community vegetables, fruits, and aquaculture. through the different associations which are at • We also have an irrigation project of a private Bobirwa Sub-District. This Market as part of the investor; we have already given them 305 ha. I thank Economic Recovery Transformation Plan (ERTP), you Mr Speaker. will be refurbished next year. Another initiative was the utilization of the European Union MR LUCAS: Supplementary. Thank you Mr Speaker. facility to the tune of P9.9 million to fund the Minister, we have many places in Bobirwa which electrification of farms along the Motloutse River. produces more food like Mmamanaka, Sekgotshwe, This project covers an area of 42 kilometres (km) Mmaditshwene and Motongolong. Did you come up power line. Moreover, it is going to service Selebi with ways to assist them with strategies which enable Phikwe farms. them to market their farm produce?

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Secondly, you mentioned that the farmers along (ii) how many vehicles, and at what value is Motloutse pay P15, 000 for electricity connection while Government purchasing in the financial year other farmers who are elsewhere pay P300, 000. How 2020/2021; do you assist those who pay P300, 000 since they are also Batswana, as I am also looking for that kind of (iii) what is the benefit of the outright purchase of assistance? Thank you Minister. vehicles versus leasing; and

MS MANAKE: Thank you Mr Speaker. You have (iv) if Government is amenable to introducing an Uber- already given an example of Mmamanaka, Mmamanaka type transport model for the discharge of its duties, falls within this cluster and for Mmamanaka Farms as especially in consideration of Government’s you already know, the Ministry of Agriculture has a constrained financial resources. research centre along Motloutse River and we are going Later Date. to have developments like roads and others because of this cluster. Our intentions regarding this first class TEENAGE PREGNANCY AT SHOSHONG cluster at Bobirwa Sub-District is to fence it and drill SECONDARY SCHOOL boreholes and then again facilitate the farmers so that they can get some loans from different organisations. MR A. LESASO (SHOSHONG): asked the Minister They are going to be able to buy fruit trees which they of Basic Education to apprise this Honourable House are going to plant. We also intend to provide them with on: officers who are going to assist them with skills and knowledge which they are going to use when planting (i) the number of students that have dropped out of these oranges. I have already mentioned that this school due to teenage pregnancy at Shoshong financial year, we had plans for Mosalakwane road and Secondary School and their ages; will also consider Motongolong road as we move on. (ii) the number of those boarding; and We are doing feasibility; we assess where most food is produced from these clusters. That is why we say we (iii) whether it is the responsibility of Government to have already started that side as we have given them ensure the security of students and in particular the resources and that is why the electricity connection boarding students. fee is going to be low for these clusters. In places where people connect electricity individually, the connection ASSISTANT MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION fee is very expensive. So we encourage farmers, (MS MAKWINJA): Thank you Mr Speaker. Thank especially those who plant vegetables to form clusters you Honourable Lesaso for the question. Mr Speaker, and come to us through companies or the clusters so since January 2019 to December 2020 three student that we can map how we are going to assist them going dropped out due to pregnancy from Shoshong Junior forth. Secondary. They were all under 15 years. Nine students I was giving you an example that on average and in that dropped from Shoshong Senior Secondary School due sub-district, you will find these people paying about to pregnancy. Six out of these were 18 years old and P300, 000 or more. I thank you Mr Speaker. three were 19 years old.

GOVERNMENT’S VEHICLE AND Mr Speaker, Shoshong Junior School does not have TRANSPORTATION STRATEGY boarding facilities and all the students who dropped out due to pregnancy were day scholars. Of the nine MR T. LETSHOLO (KANYE NORTH): Asked the pregnancies at Shoshong Senior Secondary School, Minister of Transport and Communications to apprise seven were boarders. this Honourable House on Government’s vehicle and transportation strategy; and to further state: Mr Speaker, Ministry of Basic Education takes responsibility to ensure security of the students. There (i) the number of vehicles the Government has, and are two security companies which has employed how many are currently out of service, parked security guards; two at the boys’ dormitories and two or non-functional due to breakdowns and lack at the girls’ dormitories. Therefore, there is a matron of maintenance, including awaiting replacement and Headmaster at Shoshong Senior Secondary School parts; boarding school. Thank you.

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MR LESASO: Supplementary. Thank you Mr Speaker. MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND As you say there are three students under the age of 15 SECURITY (MR MMUSI): Good afternoon years who dropped out due to pregnancy; Minister what Mr Speaker. Thank you Honourable Member. Mr action have you taken against such perpetrators? Speaker, the Botswana Police Service acknowledges and appreciates the fact that special constabulary is a Minister, are you aware that the school I am talking valuable policing initiative that has increased police about of Shoshong is just an example in terms of the visibility on the ground. Their diversified role augments point I made that security is not that tight across all the regular police officers in the investigation of minor Senior Schools in the country and boarding facilities? cases. What are you doing to ensure there is tight security? The Botswana Police Service initiated the process MS MAKWINJA: Thank you Honourable Member. of recruiting regular police officers, mainly from Out of the three students at Junior Secondary School and Special Constable Cadre in 2007. Officers who had a Senior Secondary School, we cannot make an assurance minimum qualification of Botswana General Certificate that these students…the issue now goes back to the of Secondary Education (BGCSE) with 30 points and parents. There is no how headteacher and teachers can having at least obtained Grade C in English language or be held accountable for day scholars so such issues are better, age less than 30 years and having completed two handed over to the parents so that they can be reported. years of continuous service were considered. I think the school can also report to law authorities and alert them that there has been defilement, the same goes Mr Speaker, the Botswana Police Service took a decision for those at boarding. You would notice that most of in November 2013 to enhance enrolment of Special these cases happen after students return from holidays. Constables into the organisation by enlisting officers Like I said, the school has Guidance and Counselling who had served for a period of more than five years by and Headteachers who work with parents when there reducing the entry point from 30 to 25 points, with a are such cases. Thank you. grade E in English language or better, and increased enlistment age up to 35 years. MR MMOLOTSI: Further supplementary. Minister, drop out students at Shoshong, it is the same even at A total of 3825 Special Constables have been enlisted Francistown and everywhere in Botswana. I want to into Botswana Police Service as regular police officers know if you have a database to trace students. Do you since the appointment of Special Constables in 2004. have a database to trace where some students ended at Special Constables are recruited subject to availability some stage? Have you ever conducted any tracer study of posts which determines the number to be employed, to know on the students’ progress? considering their qualifications and other skills required to fill vacant posts within the Botswana Police Service. MS MAKWINJA: Thank you Honourable Member. There are normally around 300 posts in a financial year. Unfortunately, this question was not noticed so he has to notice it so that I can prepare. I am aware of Special Constables who have attained the age of 36 years and have not undergone training. It is TRAINING OF SPECIAL CONSTABLES OVER with regret that there are no future plans to train and THE AGE OF 36 absorb them into regular police officers, since they are MR F. T. LEUWE (TAKATOKWANE): asked the well above the maximum age of recruitment in terms Minister of Defence, Justice and Security whether he is of the Botswana Police Service Recruitment Policy. aware that some of the Special Constables have attained However, we continue to renew their contracts on the the age of 36 years before they could be trained; and if basis of performance. so, to state: Mr Speaker, it should be noted that police trainees have (i) future plans to train these Special Constables to undergo and complete an intensive 12 months basic in order for them to be absorbed into the public training at the Botswana Police College. Therefore, service; and some of the Special Constables do not meet minimum entry requirements of enlisting as regular members in (ii) how many officers are affected by this situation. terms of age and academic qualification.

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Age is a critical factor in the recruitment and selection a year, we are allowed an intake of 300 people, and of police recruits, considering the intensity of the sometimes less than that, 150. It depends on the funds training. It will not be ideal to consider and absorb all we have been allocated Honourable Member. This is Special Constables, including those who do not meet why we cannot take them to college. Thank you Mr minimum entry requirements as it will lead to an aged Speaker. police service with limited possibilities for further development in terms of different areas of specialty and …Silence… skills needed for the service. MR LEUWE: …(Interruptions)…when are you going A total of 487 Special Constables are affected by this to keep on renewing, what is the assurance to them that condition because of age and as already alluded to, they will continue to have their contracts renewed, these we continue to renew their contracts based on their 487? Thank you Mr Speaker. performance. I thank you Mr Speaker. MR MMUSI: Mr Speaker, we will keep on renewing MR LEUWE: Supplementary. Thank you Mr Speaker. looking at the state of the budget. I hope that we will Thank you Honourable Minister, even though I do not keep on renewing like we have been doing. Thank you understand what you are saying, what is these people’s Mr Speaker. future, because you just said you are going to keep on TEMPORARY TEACHERS IN SELEBI PHIKWE renewing and we do not know when you are going to stop renewing. What will their plans in life be, because MR D. L. KEORAPETSE (SELEBI PHIKWE now they are not hired permanently like the others and WEST): asked the Minister of Basic Education to update this Honourable House on the total number of it is not their fault that they reached 36 years, which temporary teachers in Selebi Phikwe Primary Schools you cannot hire them when they are that old? Can you and to specifically state: explain to us Honourable Minister what is the future of these people because we are the ones who wasted their (i) the number per school and subject; time as the police service? Thank you Mr Speaker. (ii) the duration of contracts and number of times MR MMUSI: Thank you Mr Speaker. Honourable contracts were renewed for each; and Member, it is not like we wasted their time. There were no positions at that time to absorb them. You can see (iii) reasons why these teachers cannot be absorbed into Permanent and Pensionable Employment or that we have absorbed 3 825, and we did not manage to reasonable contracts of 3/5 years. absorb only 487. It is not like we are deserting the ones we have at the moment, we will keep on renewing their ASSISTANT MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION contracts if they work hard and they are capable in their (MS MAKWINJA): Thank you Mr Speaker. Thank job. Thank you Mr Speaker. you Honourable Keorapetse. We have 26 temporary teachers, who have been hired in 11 schools. So this is MR MOTAOSANE: Supplementary. Thank you how they have been divided; sir. Honourable Minister, I have heard that you have answered, but somewhere you are not answering the There is only one at Boitumelo Primary School. The question. The question here is, these young people as following have two each; Tebogo, Boswelakgomo, they are now over the age for you to take them to the Tlhabologo and Segomotso Primary Schools. The college and renewing their contracts is something that following two have five each which are Boitshoko and Phikwe Primary Schools. Anderson Primary School has is not reliable. You cannot assure us that you will renew seven temporary teachers. their contracts. We are saying, what are you saying about them, why not take a special dispensation and take those For these temporary teachers, it was their first 400 to the college so that they can finish and then you appointment, it was their first time to be hired in the absorb them into the national police system properly? months of June and July this year and they have been Thank you sir. hired with temporary contracts not exceeding 12 months.

MR MMUSI: Thank you Honourable Member. The Mr Speaker, as Ministry of Basic Education, we are problem is that we do not have the money that can take continuing to try to fill the positions. We cannot be able those 400 to the college. Like I am telling you that in to hire temporary teachers with contracts exceeding 12

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months, which is a law that is there at Section 13 of MR KEORAPETSE: Further Supplementary. Thank the Public Service Act in regards to employment on you. Honourable Minister, Joseph Anderson Primary temporary basis. It cannot exceed 12 months. That is School that you say has seven temporary teachers, why we renew those contracts every month. So what is a sophisticated school, I think you know of its I am trying to say is that, temporary employment is sophistication that it admits intellectually impaired conducted using this Section. Thank you. children. Do you realise that there are many temporary teachers in this school which could really be having MR KEORAPETSE: Supplementary. Thank you. permanent employees? Are you aware of the challenges Honourable Minister, do you realise that hiring temporary that are existing at Joseph Anderson? How come teachers with a 12 months contract is disruptive to the Joseph Anderson has so many temporary staff, not only job they do in schools? It is disruptive in the sense teachers? that, you will find that schools are opening and some temporary teachers’ contracts have not been renewed, MS MAKWINJA: I thank you Honourable Member. then it ends up affecting progress of the students. Why What I can say is that special education schools, those can this not be fixed so that they can be able to have that have students who need extra care require many contracts that will enable them to have gratuities, so teachers. As I was saying, we have this challenge in all that they can get the facilities from banks, so that they schools; it is not only in Selebi Phikwe. We have been can earn a living? Are you saying in Government it is talking about these issues, we are trying to address prohibited that someone can be hired with a contract of issues that put teachers at a disadvantage. We are trying three years, or five years? If it is prohibited, do you not our best Honourable Member. Thank you. see the challenge that is created by hiring teachers with DE-SLUDGING SMALL DAMS IN SEROWE these 12 months contracts? NORTH MS MAKWINJA: Thank you Honourable Member. MR B. MATHOOTHE (SEROWE NORTH): asked Mr Speaker, I agree with the Honourable Member, the Minister of Agricultural Development and Food renewing those contracts disrupts education very much, Security when he will consider de-sludging small dams because sometimes when schools are opened, they will in the Serowe North Constituency as they can no longer be still waiting for those letters. Then that means that dam enough water to adequately assist farmers to water students spend a bit of time without a teacher. As I have their livestock. said, the problem is that, we do not have permanent ASSISTANT MINISTER OF AGRICULTURAL positions. We are still requesting so that every year we DEVELOPMENT AND FOOD SECURITY (MS can try to reduce the backlog, and we are going to do MANAKE): I thank you Mr Speaker. Thank you that to try and reduce this backlog. Thank you. Honourable Member. MR MOTAOSANE: Supplementary. Thank you Mr Mr Speaker, we know and understand that the small Speaker. Honourable Minister, it is very interesting that dams in Serowe North have sludge because they have you are able to admit that students can stay for some reached their lifespan of 30 years. What we are doing days without a teacher. Since you would be alert that right now is to assess and find out what we can do about a teacher is not available, why can you not renew the this situation, what we can do to rehabilitate and de- contract of the temporary teacher who has been there, up sludge because we realise their importance in relation to until you get a teacher, you just increase their contract water security in Agriculture. term? Why should students spend 10, 15 days without Some small dams that we have in Serowe North are teachers? No, please be serious. found in Mhatane, Motolo, Rancheng, Taukome, Patwe, MS MAKWINJA: Thank you Honourable Motaosane. Mangolwana, Lephala/Mogonono and Leropong. Our We will look into that issue Honourable Member, that is officers have already started assessing their situation to see what we can do with what we have at our disposal. I a good advice. Thank you. thank you Mr Speaker. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Further supplementary. MR MATHOOTHE: Supplementary. Maybe the MR SPEAKER: Last supplementary Honourable Honourable Minister should tell us how long they are Keorapetse. going to take to do their assessment.

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MS MANAKE: I thank you Mr Speaker. I said we are MS MANAKE: Sir? hoping to start the rehabilitation in the financial year 2021/2022. I thank you Mr Speaker. HONOURABLE MEMBER: You have answered them. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Supplementary. MS MANAKE: Have I answered them? MR SPEAKER: The last supplementary, Honourable Dr Gobotswang. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Yes.

DR GOBOTSWANG: Supplementary. I thank you Mr MS MANAKE: I thank you Mr Speaker. Speaker. Honourable Minister, why can you not just tell SUBVENTIONS FOR CIVIL SOCIETY the nation that when it comes to dams you do not have ORGANISATIONS the capacity? The question is, in a year, how many dams do you rehabilitate Honourable Minister? Just give us a DR U. DOW (SPECIALLY ELECTED): asked the target, as we are speaking, where are those working on Minister of Nationality, Immigration and Gender Affairs dams? That is the first question. to state:

The second one is; how many dams do you build in a (i) the names of Civil Society Organisations receiving year? Last time the Honourable Member for Tati West subventions from Government and those that have was talking about five dams, but he was not able to Women’s Human Rights as a core mandate; explain when you were going to complete them. In all (ii) when the organisations started receiving our constituencies including Sefhare-Ramokgonami, it subventions; is the same problem. (iii) the amount granted to each for financial years HONOURABLE MEMBER: Even in Mokobeng. 2018/2019 and 2019/2020 and what percentage of DR GOBOTSWANG: Sir. same represented each organisation’s budget;

MS MANAKE: Mr Speaker, last time I tried to answer (iv) whether there are plans to add any other Honourable Gobotswang to show him that in the whole organisations to the above list and if so, to state country, we have 400 dams and there is a process that is the criteria to be used; and followed for them to be built. I also pointed out that the (v) whether there are plans to increase current machines which we have been using are not fit. We are subventions for organisations focusing on Gender reviewing how we are going to move forward regarding Based Violence (GBV) work. this issue of dams because we do realise that it is very important and it can assist us in many things, especially MINISTER OF NATIONALITY, IMMIGRATION looking at agriculture. AND GENDER AFFAIRS (MS MOKGETHI): Thank you Mr Speaker. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Target. (i) Currently there are three Civil Society MS MANAKE: Target; I will come back to you Organisations which receive subventions from again to show it to you. What is there is that there is Government and these are: a procedure that is followed to building dams; you do not just come and say, ‘I have a target to do so many (a) Botswana Gender Based Violence Prevention dams,’ without having water harvesting capacity. There and Support Centre (BGVC) formerly known are some places… as Kagisano Women’s Shelter. It has centres in HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… Gaborone and Francistown.

MS MANAKE: Mr Speaker, they are shouting that side (b) Women Against Rape (WAR) in Maun. but I am trying to respond. I am not sure if they are (c) The Non-Governmental Organisations suggesting I should just sit down or what? (NGOs) Council to support other Civil Society HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… Organisations.

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Botswana Gender Based Violence Prevention and MS MOKGETHI: I agree with you entirely Honourable Support Centre and Women Against Rape provide Minister in the sense that they do need more funds. That shelter for Gender Based Violence (GBV) victims is why I said we would do better if we could increase the and survivors including: psycho-social support and subventions if funds permit. Unfortunately, funds do not income generating activities. The Non-Governmental permit at this stage. If I may just add that, organizations Organisation Council is responsible for coordinating such as the Kagisano Women’s Shelter get support from civil society in Botswana. The two shelters and the other organisations such as the European Union (EU) to NGO Council have women’s human rights as their core the tune of P2 million per annum, which also contribute mandate, hence offer services specific to women to to their budget. Other organisations since they are Civil facilitate full enjoyment of their rights. Society Organisations, they also get assistance from different organisations. (ii) Mr Speaker, BGVC started receiving subventions from Government in 2011, whereas WAR I have also indicated that we are currently doing a study started in 2014. on establishing and strengthening safe havens which will give precise and concrete information, which will (iii) Mr Speaker, my ministry granted BGVC inform targeted intervention for Gender-Based Violence P500 000.00 and WAR P250 000.00 for the (GBV) survivors. So, I would request that we wait and financial year 2018/2019, which represented see what are the recommendations made in that study. 16.7 per cent and 8.3 per cent respectively. In the Thank you, Mr Speaker. financial year 2019/2020, BGVC was granted P514 889.20 representing 16.8 per cent while MR SALESHANDO: Further supplementary. WAR was granted P250 000.00 which represented Honourable Minister, do you realise that GBV is a crisis? 8.3 per cent of their budget. You cannot tell us to wait for you to go and conduct a study. You have already mentioned in your response that (iv) Mr Speaker, on whether there are plans to add there is an increase in the demand for shelter services any other organisation to the three stated above, at organisations like Women Against Rape (WAR), for my ministry is currently conducting a study survivors of Gender-Based Violence. Why is it difficult establishing and strengthening Gender Based for you to vow that you will increase funds to cover at Violence safe havens in the country which is due least 50 per cent of the expenses that this organisations for completion in March 2021. The study will give precise and concrete information on strengthening incur, as a way to address the crisis that we are facing? and establishing safe havens which will inform MS MOKGETHI: I would just like to indicate that targeted interventions for GBV survivors the real crisis came with COVID-19, that is when we including their protections. This will further really experienced the crisis. During that crisis, the inform whether there will be any need to include Government assisted Botswana Gender-Based Violence more organisations. Prevention and Support Centre known as Kagisano (v) My ministry continues to monitor the GBV Women’s Shelter, with an additional P1.2 million, situation in the country. COVID-19 pandemic saw precisely to address the situation of the crisis that you an increase in the demand for shelter services by are referring to. So, what we did as a response to that survivors of GBV which puts pressure on the need crisis, we increased the amount of money that we to expand services by both shelters and other key normally give them. Thank you Mr Speaker. stakeholders. It is therefore desirous to include subventions to these organisations when funds MR SPEAKER: Honourable Member for Tati West, permit, as they play a crucial role in addressing Honourable Moabi! GBV. I thank you Mr Speaker. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Good afternoon Mr DR DOW: Supplementary. Thank you Mr Speaker. Speaker. I will take question 12 for him. Honourable Minister, would you not say that contributing GRADERS ALLOCATED TO KGALAGADI less than 30 per cent to the budget of these organisations SOUTH is a statement about our commitment to fighting GBV? If we put our money where our mouths are, in February MR S. J. BROOKS (KGALAGADI SOUTH): asked you will increase that to at least 50 per cent. the Minister of Transport and Communications to state:

Hansard No 200 7 Wednesday 9th December, 2020 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

(i) how many graders had been allocated to the experiencing these delays. What I can say is that we have Kgalagadi South Constituency for the past six been having discussions to improve our cooperation years; with councils which are under the Ministry that is led by Honourable Molale so that they assist us on the situation (ii) how many have broken down; and of roads under our ministry, considering the fact that we (iii) the ministry’s future plans regarding these can also assist them with consumables when they assist machines. us on these roads. These are some of the issues that we intend to talk about. MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND COMMUNICATIONS (MR SEGOKGO): Thank The other point is that in the coming Financial Year, we you Mr Speaker. are considering to increase projects that are awarded to companies so that they can also assist us. This year we (i) Mr. Speaker, my ministry has allocated three (3) had monetary constraints hence we could not do that. graders to Kgalagadi South Constituency. Only one (1) grader was allocated to in the last (six) 6 So I have announced dates as to when graders are years while the other two were deployed in 1980 expected back. I said that one grader which failed is th and 2005 expected back on 11 December 2020, today is the 9 . If that does happen…but I do not expect that not to happen (ii) Mr Speaker, all the three (3) graders are currently because we are going to test it, I believe that it will be broken down. Two of the graders required engine back at the Constituency. We are expecting the other one overhaul and the repairs for one were done in- on the 18th of December. Thank you Honourable. house while the other two were outsourced. One of the outsourced repairs failed upon final inspection MR MAJAGA: Further supplementary. Thank you and were returned to the service provider; one Mr Speaker. Thank you Minister. It will seem like we grader is expected back on 11 December 2020. Mr are bothering you. Can you briefly make it clear to this Speaker, the third grader being repaired in-house Honourable House that many constituencies have a is awaiting delivery of an injector pump road crisis. There is a problem, Councils and Ministry of Transport and Communications… it has even been (iii) My ministry’s plan is to repair all the graders. proclaimed in this House that you are having discussions However, while the graders are unavailable, with Councils about working together on these issues my ministry has relocated one of the Kgalagadi North Constituency graders to maintain roads in but it seems like things are not adding up. Kgalagadi South Constituency. Thank you Mr When you go to Constituencies like Nata-Gweta, Speaker. Kgalagadi, Maun and others, you will find Departments MR BROOKS: Supplementary. Thank you Mr Speaker. of Roads and Councils but the crisis is still there. Since Thank you Honourable Minister for that answer. Mr we once passed the National Roads Agency Motion, Minister, do you realise or understand the challenge how far are you with it? This agency or the National regarding roads at Kgalagadi Constituency and the state Roads Agency initiative will be focusing on roads, not that they are in? assigning roads to districts like Kweneng just because the road is at Mogoditshane. It will just be a complete The other thing Minister, when should people of overhaul because an agency will be there. As a ministry, Kgalagadi South expect the graders that you are talking you will also not respond to issues about injector about, more especially that one that is expected back on pumps in Parliament because they will be addressed at the 11th December? I am asking this question looking the Agency. The situation will just be okay under the at the condition of roads and the amount of rainfall that National Roads Agency because right now it seems as we receive at Kgalagadi Constituency. Mr Minister, can if we are troubling you; radiator, water pump for the you concisely make that assurance so that I can go to grader. Thank you, sir. your office to follow it up. MR SEGOKGO: Thank you Honourable Member. I MR SEGOKGO: Thank you Honourable. I do realise cannot just stand up today to say Road Agency will... that Kgalagadi South projects are lagging behind, the (Inaudible)…but we continue with preparations to maintenance of unpaved roads. The whole country is implement it. I did not expect that we will be in too deep.

8 Hansard No 200 Wednesday 9th December, 2020 BUSINESS MOTION

One other thing concerning our relation with councils is, MR SPEAKER: You asked if the Business Advisory we did not keep our end of the bargain by not allocating Committee met in relation to what the Leader of the them a budget to assist them to carry out projects that we House is proposing, and I said no. were supposed to work in together. MR KEORAPETSE: Further procedure. Thank you I explained what we are going to do next year to improve Mr Speaker. I was saying, even if it is not compulsory the situation. Thank you Honourable Member. and I understand it is not. According to Standing Orders, Honourable Leader of the House can present his Motion HONOURABLE MEMBER: Supplementary. as he did but I thought there could have been courtesy to MR SPEAKER: We are done Mokwena. Order! Order! have the Business Advisory Committee assess this issue. Honourable Members, questions number two, four, Mr Speaker, this is not the first time we plead that we seven and 12, we have to move over. That indicates should do things procedurally, without rushing and in a very large number of questions on the Order Paper our right state of mind, even alert, not knocking off late which we have not done. Maybe we will discuss this because we want to pass some Motions. Mr Speaker, issue at the General Assembly. My own observation I was therefore suggesting that the Business Advisory as of now is that we are not answering the questions Committee should meet and discuss this issue and give a report at the General Assembly. directly and provoke a lot of supplementaries by not doing that, but we will talk at General Assembly. At When we started, we talked about how this House is this rate, the questions that we have, even to the Budget going to operate. We had the recommendations from the Session, will not be dealt with. We will not be able to Business Advisory Committee and General Assembly, answer the questions people are waiting to hear the we discussed them. They agreed on some and varied stance of Government on. others. Therefore, Mr Speaker, I do not agree with the way Leader of the House wants to catch us off guard and Honourable Members, I understand the Leader of the I do not think it is procedural. House has got a Business Motion to move. MR MMOLOTSI: On a point of procedure. Thank BUSINESS MOTION you. Mr Speaker, you will recall that last time Leader of LEADER OF THE HOUSE (MR TSOGWANE): the House came with a proposition and an update from Business Advisory Committee that it made a decision Thank you. Good afternoon Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, to vary Parliament sitting hours. Normally Parliament I have a Motion to move as it concerns the business of starts from 2:00 p.m. and adjourns at 6:00 p.m. Leader today which normally ends at 6 o’clock. We are making of the House came last time and proposed that on a request looking at the magnitude of the work and how Tuesdays and Thursdays we should start at 11:00 a.m. Honourable Members are passionate about debating and we agreed. Mr Speaker, I do not believe it is right the Constitution and therefore want to give them that that after agreeing to vary time the way we did, he then opportunity. Mr Speaker, I beg in terms of Standing comes and wants to extend with two and half hours, Order 27.1(b) to extend the sitting time of today’s otherwise that will just be punishment. Now you can see business by two hours 30 minutes to finish at 2030 hours that the issue is no longer that we are debating the Bill instead of 1800 hours. I therefore move Mr Speaker. but to castigate us for debating this piece of legislature you would have preferred to be disposed of quickly. MR KEORAPETSE: Procedure Mr Speaker. If I Now you are extending to late at night so that those who am wrong, please clarify. I understand that Business despondent can go so that you can pass this Bill. Advisory Committee is responsible for dealing with issues of the business of the House. Now I want to Mr Speaker, that is why even in the past I have said understand if they met and did they discuss this and these laws that are made as if they are to punish some is not good. Batswana do not want laws which are made at agree to recommend it to Honourable Members? night. They are complaining and asking us to not debate MR SPEAKER: I can answer that one Honourable issues at night which you end up regretting later. Right Keorapetse, no. now you are regretting several laws that you passed at night while we were cautioning them and they just HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of procedure. forcefully went ahead.

Hansard No 200 9 Wednesday 9th December, 2020 BUSINESS MOTION

I therefore request this Parliament that the Vice President The second one is related to what you were saying has moved his Motion and we should learn to oppose earlier on that we deal with private members’ issues things which are not done procedurally. I propose that on Thursday mornings. Mr Speaker, I request you to we oppose this request and not continue to debate make an arrangement with the management such that constitutional amendment at night. Are we afraid that tomorrow morning we deal with questions which we people will be watching us if we do it on time? failed to address today instead of waiting for 2:00 p.m. Let us address some of them tomorrow morning and HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure. others at 2:00 p.m. so that we can reduce those that we MR SPEAKER: Honourable Members, I am quite have in the Order Paper. Those are the two suggestions aware that as you stand, you are not standing actually that I have. on points of procedure, you are complaining. I will DR DOW: On a point of procedure Mr Speaker. Thank allow it because you feel strongly that you should air you Mr Speaker. Maybe we should not waste much time your views. trying to save time. We request the VP to meet with MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL those who make our timetable. Let them find how we AFFAIRS, GOVERNANCE AND PUBLIC can successfully deal with our work without extending ADMINISTRATION (MR MORWAENG): Mr our usual time by two hours. I agree with the VP that we Speaker, I believe it is befitting for the Leader of the have a lot of work and have to finish it. I also believe House to make this request looking at the magnitude of that we are really working hard, especially the Cabinet our business. Honourable Members, I think we should Ministers. They are telling the truth and it would be a agree with the two hours of extension requested because great challenge if you extend by two hours since they we want to execute properly the business that we are met as the Cabinet in the morning. I am aware that they here for. I ask and believe that it is procedural for His have discussed and finalised it there. So my request is; Honour to make that request. We should therefore agree we are really tired. So let us meet tomorrow and come and work for Batswana. Two hours only should not be up with a plan concerning how we are going to finish a big deal. this work without extending by another two hours Mr Speaker. Thank you. LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION (MR SALESHANDO): If I may Mr Speaker, it is not MR SPEAKER: I think let us give the VP the floor. procedure. Mine is to make a request that we met HIS HONOUR THE VICE PRESIDENT (MR as Business Advisory Committee and looked at TSOGWANE): Thank you Mr Speaker. We have Government Business. We agreed on the time variations members who do not understand Setswana so maybe that we did that we will come in the morning on Tuesdays they did not understand what I was saying. So let me and Thursdays which is an extension of two hours which read this Motion in English; these two hours is not some are pretending to have forgotten making it seem like what we agreed at Business Committee, that will like Honourable Members are complaining about two take place each and every day. These two hours is just hours. Already we have extended with four hours every for today because we did not even have the morning week. Since we are debating the Constitution, we accept session. These two hours for today do not stop us from that it is important that we have time Mr Speaker. For meeting tomorrow. It does not stop us at all. Today we this reason, let the Vice President (VP) withdraw this want to push the business of today. This is not the only issue so that we can discuss a way forward tomorrow. critical Bill that we have here. We also have Gender- It is painful to meet on the side and agree in terms of Based Violence (GBV) Bill, which we are all looking how you are planning to manage things, then when you forward to go and help our people. If we do not dispose get here you are told that what you agreed has changed of this one, we will never move on to GBV Bill, so, and you are going to find another slot. I do not even Batswana are listening. understand if you are extending by two hours in the evening and removing two hours in the morning. I Honourable Boko is the one who is usually concerned thought he was saying … Mr Speaker, our request is to about GBV. He brought a Motion on that and I do not discuss it tomorrow morning at the General Assembly expect him to disagree right now. We want to finalise so that we can decide how we are going to deal with the this issue and move on to GBV so that we can assist remaining work. Batswana. These two hours are nothing for Honourable

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Members just to dispose of today’s business or even this issue enough time instead of passing it in the middle push it even if they do not finish it. So we will meet of the night. We know why they are rushing it and that tomorrow. It does not stop us from meeting tomorrow is what we said yesterday. You want to rush it for your because there is still a lot of work to do. We have selfish interests. So, we request you to give this issue important policies which we have to discuss. So you enough time. Thank you Mr Speaker. Thank you. cannot do that because our intention is to fight against GBV, many issues, laws and our policies. We are still LEADER OF THE HOUSE (MR TSOGWANE): not going to finish because time will never be enough. On a point of procedure Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, the Some of our important Bills are still going to remain. more we allow Honourable Members to continue to debate such a Motion, which has never been debated in If you are going to fail to set a committee, you are not the past, is setting wrong precedence. We are allowing going to have your increment in April next year. This is Members now to debate their issues instead of really because we have already mentioned that issues of your casting a vote either for or against the Motion. All these payments are going to be addressed by that committee. Motions are decided by a vote. So, we cannot come here These are very serious businesses that you have to and justify our failures and say no, we will pass the law dispose of. As for us, we never undermine the importance at night, we have already extended our time. We are still of other Motions or think they are wasting our time. going to decide even if we need time tomorrow. If we We deal with all Motions by Honourable Members are going to decide on two hours tomorrow, what will be including those that talk about what is happening. That the difference because it will be two hours. It will still be is why we are requesting that we extend by two hours 8 o’clock, so, what will be the difference? I think he is today, it is for today only. We will discuss it tomorrow just wasting our time Mr Speaker. I moved a Motion and at the Business Committee. I thank you Mr Speaker. I so I want this House to make a decision on that Motion. move Mr Speaker that we extend today’s sitting by two hours. I thank you. MR SPEAKER: Leader of the House, we will come to that. As I said before, I do not think anybody here MR BOKO: Procedure Mr Speaker. Thank you Mr was standing on a point of procedure but I wanted to Speaker. I would like to respond to what has already hear and see whether you can persuade each other. I been said, especially by the Leader of Opposition thought that when I gave the Leader of the House the and Honourable Dow that we are a dealing with a opportunity, he will try to meet you half way. I see that weighty issue of Constitution here and it is not a joke. there are more hands, so, what I am going to do is that, I I understand that Constitutional review does not mean am going to put the question because I am satisfied that anything to the VP but these are weighty matters which there is a disagreement. require us to be in a right state of mind or not to be tired when we deal with them. We know that the Cabinet Question put and Division called for. sat in the morning to deal with their issues. We met at Parliamentary committees and we are not supposed to MR SPEAKER: It is not a question of how loud you approve laws in the middle of the night when dealing shout; it is a question of how many. In any event, the with Constitution issues. Our minds have to be clear. Minister has asked for a division.

If at all Honourable Tsogwane wants us to deal with this HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… issue, we can find time and continue with it tomorrow. It MR SPEAKER: Yes, I was ambivalent, so we will go is possible to move everything that was to be dealt with for the division. Ring the bell for two minutes. Close the tomorrow to create space for it. If we make laws right door and we vote. now at past eight, we are going to regret them tomorrow because our minds are not clear. I agree with Honourable HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… Dow that we can pause everything just to deal with that. He also talked about increment of our salaries but the MR SPEAKER: If you speak like that Honourable truth of the matter is, we do not care about that because Member of Palapye, you will not hear when they call it is not important to us. The important thing is to give your name and you might end up saying, “yes”.

Hansard No 200 11 Wednesday 9th December, 2020 BUSINESS MOTION

CLERK:

MEMBER’S NAME AYE NO ABSTAIN ABSENT Honourable Eric Mothibi Molale √ Honourable Kefentse Mzwinila √ Honourable Fidelis Molao √ Honourable Kabo Morwaeng √ Honourable Kagiso Mmusi √ Honourable Thapelo Matsheka √ Honourable Mpho Balopi √ Honourable Dr Edwin Dikoloti √ Honourable Phildah Kereng √ Honourable Mmusi Kgafela √ Honourable Dr Lemogang Kwape √ Honourable Dr Douglas Letsholathebe √ Honourable Lefoko Moagi √ Honourable Annah Mokgethi √ Honourable Tumiso Rakgare √ Honourable Thulaganyo Segokgo √ Honourable Peggy Serame √ Honourable Karabo Gare √ Honourable Mabuse Pule √ Honourable Kgotla Autlwetse √ Honourable Machana Shamukuni √ Honourable Sethomo Lelatisitswe √ Honourable Honest Buti Billy √ Honourable Nnaniki Makwinja √ Honourable Beauty Manake √ Honourable Setlhabelo Modukanele √ Honourable Dumezweni Mthimkhulu √ Honourable Molebatsi Molebatsi √ Honourable Dr Unity Dow √ Honourable Liakat Kablay √ Honourable Polson Majaga √ Honourable Mephato Reatile √ Honourable Sam Brooks √ Honourable Christian Greeff √ Honourable Thapelo Letsholo √ Honourable Tshoganetso Friction Leuwe √

Honourable Tumisang Mangwegape- √ Healy

12 Hansard No 200 Wednesday 9th December, 2020 BUSINESS MOTION

Honourable Simon Moabi √ Honourable Talita Monnakgotla √ Honourable Dumelang Saleshando √ Honourable Aubrey Lesaso √ Honourable Dithapelo Keorapetse √ Honourable Mokwaledi Moswaane √ Honourable Yandani Boko √ Honourable Palelo Motaosane √ Honourable Oabile Regoeng √ Honourable Johana Thiite √ Honourable Dr Kesitegile Gobotswang √ Honourable Taolo Lucas √ Honourable Pono Moatlhodi √ Honourable Motsamai Motsamai √ Honourable Kgoberego Nkawana √

Honourable Goretetse Kekgonegile √ Honourable Kenny Kapinga √ Honourable Kainangura Hikuama √ Honourable Oneetse Ramogapi √ Honourable Dr Never Tshabang √ Honourable David Tshere √ Honourable Tshekedi Khama √ Honourable Leepetswe Lesedi √ Honourable Baratiwa Mathoothe √ Honourable Boipuso Wynter Mmolotsi √ Honourable Slumber Tsogwane √

MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Members, the results of your voting 24 “ayes”, 19 “noes”, absent 21 so the “ayes” have it, the “ayes” have it.

Question put and agreed to.

What I thought you would do Honourable Leader of the Opposition, the issue where you were to bring the Hansard, I am not sure that you have it, I thought maybe we will quickly deal with it because what I thought would happen was that the Deputy Speaker, Honourable Pule might be in as it turns out he would not be with us for a couple of days. The Hansard of the 4th of December 2020 we shall have read it, last time the Honourable Minister Morwaeng said he had no copy and I think we can deal with that. If you can start Honourable Leader of the Opposition, as I read it, the then Speaker said, regarding the Honourable Minister, he said, “Honourable Minister, in terms of Standing Order 47.5, you should not be imputing some improper motives on other people. If you ever said there are some drug dealers on this side, please can you withdraw the statement,” hence the dispute. The Minister said, “I never said anything about drug dealers or the opposition doing anything.” That was the question. The Speaker had said that “withdraw”. So, Honourable Saleshando, I give you leave to deal with the record so that we can get on with anything.

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MR SALESHANDO: Mr Speaker, I have a Parliament Members, and in the context of the House, there can record of the 4th December. When Honourable Minister only be one Honourable Members. Morwaeng was talking about different police units and when he mentioned drugs unit he pointed this side and HONOURABLE MEMBER: ...(Inaudible)... said ‘bagalona” meaning the other side of the House. MR SPEAKER: That is what I am saying, do not “bagalona ba ditagi” is there in the Hansard. interpret for me, you will soon lose my understanding. If I were to read what he said, he said, “Mr Speaker, That is my understanding of the record as I read it. I I do not understand if Honourable Gobotswang has a re-read it and I just thought it is because sometimes hearing impediment or he does not understand me. Setswana is tricky. The third time I thought what Leader There is no problem, let me explain; currently what is of the Opposition read in addition which I read made happening is, training of our police officers includes the it quite clear to me that a fair reading of this statement GBV aspect. This is crime related training in general indicates that Honourable Morwaeng was referring to the but there is an aspect of GBV. What we have done right Honourable Members opposite to him. So Honourable now as Government or police is, we are going to have Morwaeng, the order therefore for the Chair is that a special unit which will specifically attend GBV cases. on the reading of this record, you did imply as a least We are saying, we have established it as I speak right aspersion on your colleagues, Honourable Members on now. The training is ongoing. All our police stations the other side of the House, and the honourable thing have transport or Traffic Unit, Livestock Unit, Diamond would be to withdraw that imputation and we will be and Minerals Protection Unit, the unit that is responsible done with the matter. for what your people are dealing in; drugs (Narcotics MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL AFFAIRS, Unit) and now we are going to have a unit that will focus GOVERNANCEAND PUBLICADMINISTRATION on GBV related cases especially for children.” There is (MR MORWAENG): Let me thank you Honourable no need for him to say your people who deal in drugs, Mr Speaker. You are a parent, and as a parent when you when he says your people, he is imputing, suggesting, say this kind of words, they should be listened to. First implying and we were saying it is not the first time he did of all, we also do not understand Setswana the same. that. He denied using these words, saying, “your people Really when you say our colleagues, in our language we who deal in drugs.” It was not the first time he did that, use those words to speak. Honourable Kapinga said that. So we request that he should not only withdraw, he should also be rebuked for HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… doing that as an Honourable Minister, he should respect the office he occupies, he should be rebuked for going MR MORWAENG: If that is what you realised in your around using his position as Minister to spread rumours reading Mr Speaker, it is necessary that when you have that he cannot provide evidence for. That is our only interpreted them that way, and you believe that maybe request Mr Speaker. I was referring to my colleagues, I have to do the right thing, and ask for forgiveness if that is how it was MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Members, interpreted. Thank you Mr Speaker. as I said, the Speaker had ruled. It was after the ruling which I read that Honourable Morwaeng then said, HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Murmurs)... “Honourable Members, I did not say the other side who MR SPEAKER: Honourable Minister, the reading is rally drug dealers, what I am saying is that in the police the first part which was that the training is ongoing, service we have a unit which deals with stock theft and “so with that programme, in all our police stations we another one for traffic. We have a unit of narcotics, have the transport or traffic unit, the stock theft unit, which Honourable Kapinga with due respect knows, diamonds, and your people who deal in drugs.” I do not and it deals with those Honourable Members of drugs.” think is a question Honourable Member, the Speaker’s I am reading the record. So my reading of the record and understanding is a question of Setswana, “your what we have just referred to Honourable Leader of the colleagues of drugs” read together with what I read Opposition, indicate that we should give Honourable after the intervention by Honourable Kapinga, which I Morwaeng the same opportunity that the Speaker gave thought put the matter beyond my limited understanding him on the fourth to withdraw the imputation which of Setswana, with it is directed at those colleagues of I think comes out clearly, he referred to Honourable drugs, ‘colleagues’. I do not think Minister; you are

14 Hansard No 200 Wednesday 9th December, 2020 CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2020 (NO. 14 OF 2020) Second Reading (Resumed Debate)

entitled to say you are withdrawing on the understanding time, ‘that consultation has been overtaken by events,’ that it is the understanding of the Speaker. I do not think because 22 years is a long time. Secondly, we cannot so Honourable Member, just stand up, do the honourable say the nation has been consulted simply because you thing, just withdraw, the imputation is quite clear to me. informed the Ntlo ya Dikgosi. This is a Bill which talks about Constitutional issues, which are very political, MR MORWAENG: Mr Speaker that is what I am which involve parties. saying that I withdraw that statement. You advised me and I said I am withdrawing since your advice means DR GOBOTSWANG: On a point of elucidation Mr that I have heard you, I have heard you Mr Speaker. I Speaker. The reason why we have a census every ten withdraw. Thank you. years is that it is believed that in a period of ten years, things would have really changed. I mean, you are on MR SPEAKER: Thank you Honourable Minister. the right track Honourable Member. Thank you. Honourable Saleshando, I think we are done with that one. You can now proceed Honourable Members, time MR KAPINGA: The point I would like to emphasise is not on our side, but I thought we should not leave on is that last time when we talked here, it appeared as if things hanging which you can dispose of. Honourable we agreed that we should not involve Magosi in political Members, let us now go to the Motions. issues, so this issue on the table right now is very political, talking about whether I am free to leave a party CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT) BILL, if I no longer want to be affiliated to it and what it means 2020 (NO. 14 OF 2020) to the people who have elected me. So, Honourable Second Reading Members the point I want to put across is that I was not elected by Dikgosi. I was elected by Batswana back at (Resumed Debate) home, in the villages. These are the people you should go and talk to, and forget about what you did 22 years MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! The debate on this ago, just forget that. You should go and talk to Batswana Bill is resuming. When the House adjourned yesterday, and inform them about what you are saying about this Honourable Kapinga was on the floor debating and he matter, because I believe Batswana will tell you that was left with 8 minutes 48 seconds. ‘by amending this law, you are preventing people from MR KAPINGA (OKAVANGO): Thank you Mr defecting with our votes, which is something we like,’ Speaker. To remind people of what I spoke about and at the same time you should declare that you are not yesterday, let me say I have no problem at all with the involved in the running of elections. I believe they know principle that people should not floor cross with people’s and they suspect you might use your power and the votes. What I was saying is that mashi ke tswa thobeng law to weaken the opposition or to weaken the state of ke le phepa, selabe se tla le motsaya kgamelo (meaning Members of Parliament in Parliament, by making them that the idea is okay the problem is the motive). Let me leave their seats. And then you would just stay without indicate that I do not trust the motives of the people calling a bye-election, because the authority of when a who are bringing this Bill and what their intentions are, bye-election can be called is on you. I believe for you and what they are thinking at the back of their minds. to prove that you want to do things truthfully; these So yesterday I indicated that this law can be used to things have to go hand in hand. This Bill has to pass weaken the opposition and it is already evident in one with certain amendments, where you are now leaving of our neighbouring countries, and the ruling party in the Independent Electoral Commission, to be the one that country is friends with the BDP. I suspect they have ensuring that if there is an opening which requires a bye- taught them a few tricks. election, they should be the only ones, not anyone else who determine when the bye-election would be held. Therefore, Mr Speaker, I would like to talk about the issue of consultation. Yesterday we heard Honourable The other issue that I would like to touch on Mr Kgafela saying this Bill does not require a referendum, Speaker, to save time is in regard to an independent that if Magosi have been consulted it is fine, and in fact, candidate who comes to Parliament after struggling consultation was done 22 years ago. Mr Speaker what I for themselves, using their own name out there. After want to say is that consultation which was done 22 years coming to Parliament, they would realise the value of ago, just to borrow a statement which was said here last joining another party; so barring them from joining a

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party, what public good does that prohibition serve, how your Government, and maybe the leader at that time does it really help? How does it affect the interest of would not like it and they would be able to chase you the nation? What interest does it protect? What I have away from Parliament. So I am glad that that Clause was observed is that you know that when someone works removed Mr Speaker, it is no longer in the Bill. hard for themselves, campaigning alone, spending so much money, they will not be ready at all for another Secondly, Mr Speaker, people out there are not amused round of elections. One would not be able to campaign that after voting for their Letlhakeng-Lephephe Member again within a short period of time. Therefore, you want of Parliament, the next day they would hear that ‘Kablay to hold them at ransom based on financial implications, is no longer a member of the BDP, he now belongs to wanting them to be where they are and never ever think a different party.’ On the day of elections, they would of shifting to join anyone else. have woken up so early in the morning, going through rains, cold or the heat knowing that they are going to Mr Speaker, I would like to conclude by saying we vote for their leader, who would be able to deliver on should go back to the nation. The ruling party should his promises. go and tell the nation that ‘we have been snatching,’ do you know an eagle? ‘We have been snatching members Mr Speaker, when you campaign for elections, you also from other parties; and now we have been converted, campaign for the party you are representing. What I mean because we have seen the consequences of our actions. is that, as Kablay, I do not have any programmes and Therefore we no longer want to do such things.’ Then initiatives; the programmes belong to my party, whose ticket I will be contesting under. So when I campaign you will see whether the nation will agree with you that for the party that I am contesting under, announcing that indeed, you have been converted and you have seen it will do this and that and then I turn against my words the truth, as Saul encountered the truth on his way to after people hear the promises of the party, defecting to Damascus, “the Damascus experience” I was talking another party, this really troubled Batswana Mr Speaker. about yesterday. I doubt there is anything which has Mr Speaker, that is why we heard that Batswana do not converted you, which has made you see goodness in this want to go to the elections, they do not want to vote and process you are bringing to the table, as opposed to the that only a smaller number of people registered to vote. culture you are used to, where you used to snatch people The number of people who registered to vote was small from other parties. I thank you Mr Speaker. because they believe that elections are just a joke. They MR KABLAY (LETLHAKENG-LEPHEPHE): vote for people and after they vote for them they defect, Thank you Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker I also wanted to so what is the point of going for elections? It is best rise to support the Bill as presented by the Honourable not to take part because they do not know the point of Minister. I support him very much. Batswana have long voting. Mr Speaker, this Bill is going to be beneficial, it waited for this Bill, but there were delays. I remember will really prove what it means to vote. Batswana who that in 2010, this Bill once came, and as Parliament that vote will see that when they vote, their votes are going time, I believe you were there Mr Speaker, we debated to be protected because if they were not protected, we it, but we did not agree on certain things. I believe were going to have the same situations that are there those things have been corrected, because we did not currently. You will see in the next elections Mr Speaker, agree that a leader of a party could decide to chase a many Batswana are going to register to vote after seeing Member of Parliament from the party. After chasing that we are now serious. The current Government you away it would mean there would be elections at earnestly wants Batswana to vote. We want Batswana your constituency. I remember that in 2010 when this to vote in large numbers because when they do that, we Bill was presented, as the backbench from the ruling will be strengthening democracy. party, we opposed it. So I am glad that Clause has been Mr Speaker, we appreciate the proposal of this Bill removed Mr Speaker, ensuring that there is no leader because the anger that is always there when people who has the authority to chase me away from the party defect after being voted will come to an end… or from Parliament so that there would be bye-elections in the constituency I am representing. So we said that DR GOBOTSWANG: On a point of clarification. would make us afraid of speaking in Parliament, being Thank you Chief Whip. I hear you. I want you to tell afraid to advocate for our constituencies knowing that me what you are saying about people who contest and when you speak you will be addressing your party or lose elections only to be specially elected to Parliament

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and appointed ministers after you have worked hard Sir, some of us who got the opportunity to go and consult and incurred expenses. What is your take on that issue our voters during the Tenth Parliament addressed Honourable Member? this issue at the Kgotla meetings in our respective Constituencies. People aired their suggestions as I have MR KABLAY: Thank you Honourable Gobotswang. just explained. Mr Speaker, we cannot change anything I believe that Mr Speaker Honourable Skelemani in the Constitution as my fellow Honourable Members explained it yesterday. He explained what the have been saying. Constitution says. I do not want to dwell on it because he explained it yesterday and some of us understand it, Honourable Members, if they notice that Kablay we did not understand it… worked hard during campaigns and he is not appointed while someone was elected elsewhere to come and be MR BOKO: Further clarification. Thank you Mr a Member of Parliament who holds an upper position Speaker. Honourable Member, I do not support that you than Kablay, there is nothing we can do Mr Speaker. should run away from the clarification that Honourable We have to accept the situation as it is, we are aware Gobotswang was seeking. Even the amendment that that sometimes us Members of Parliament direct we want to make has always been in the Constitution. unacceptable statements to Specially Elected Members The question is what you are saying about people…I of Parliament. We should not disrespect our fellow feel pity for you because you have been in Parliament nominated members like we are doing. They are not for the longest time, at least you should be holding the here by mistake... ministerial position. Someone lost elections at Serowe MR BOKO: On a point of clarification. Honourable in 2019, people of Serowe said that they do not want Kablay, I wanted us to address this issue because it is him and he cannot represent them, they strongly worrying. I studied Constitutional Law at University of rejected him but now the very same person is appointed Botswana and I understand it better. I believe that you a Minister in Parliament. Is that not indecent? Do you have come across it somewhere in your life. We have support that? Being rejected by people only for them to to honour the Constitution because all the laws that are wake up to you being their Minister? Being a minister made take legitimacy from it. Now we want to amend while the likes of Honourable Kablay struggled during the Constitution which does not serve Honourable campaigns and are not appointed as ministers or at least Kablay, Honourable Motaosane, Honourable Moagi an assistant minister? What are you saying about that? and Honourable Morwaeng only, no. It serves the entire Thank you. Batswana. You have made one mistake that you are MR KABLAY: Thank you Mr Speaker. Honourable going to regret from here going forward, the decision Boko, I just gave the explanation that the Speaker that when you have consulted Magosi only… I do not clarified that things are complex when they are in the know how many Dikgosi are at Ntlo ya Dikgosi and Constitution. When the Constitution states that we you believe that it is enough to consult Magosi only. should have Specially Elected Members of Parliament, What are you saying about Batswana? Forget about the we should pass that. For us to change it, we would consultation that took place 22 years back, what are you have to look for another option. If you do not want saying about Batswana? The only person who I applaud Specially Elected Members of Parliament, you will for consulting Batswana is Honourable Leuwe. He is come to Parliament to propose that amendment, that saying that 95 per cent of his constituents support the we should remove the Clause of nominated Members amendment of the Constitution. I know that he is not of Parliament. Even if you can win power in future, telling the truth but I will give him the benefit of the you are going to find this clause and you have to abide doubt. What are you saying about failing to consult by it, Parliament has to nominate six Specially Elected Batswana extensively, not only Magosi? Thank you. Members. Mr Speaker, it is in the Constitution and we are the ones who came up with it so I do not know why MR KABLAY: Thank you Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, some Members are saying that it is not appropriate. I said that once during the Tenth Parliament we were What is wrong with it? Let me go through it so that I can given an opportunity to go and consult, we were with see what is wrong with it. If it is not satisfactory, I will Honourable Saleshando and others. I went to consult come back here and announce that it is not satisfactory. people of my Constituency who accepted this floor Right now I believe that it is suitable Mr Speaker. crossing proposal as I presented it to them. If you defect

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with the seat that we appointed you through, when you Mr Speaker, if you look at all countries which flee with it, there should be a rerun of elections. At experienced instability, for example, Cambodia in 1975, Serinane they said, “Member of Parliament, we plead when they were led by Pol Pot, it was possible to kill that in this clause, you should add another Clause that someone for wearing glasses. You could just be killed states that when a Member of Parliament defects with together with your children that you are intelligent a seat of the Constituency to another party, corporal and feared that you could negatively influence people. punishment should be instilled, four strokes… All these things Mr Speaker can start this way in this House. Mr Speaker, when we discuss the Constitution, HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… we should be looking at historical examples of those HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Kablose! who came up with Motions of Constitution where at the end children were left orphaned while the Constitution MR KABLAY: …so that he/she never does that again. remained. Mr Speaker, these issues need to be exposed. Our sweats, rains, and cold that we experienced when we went to vote for him/her, so that that can be the Mr Speaker, there is no delegate in this House, only punishment from the voters’’ that is what they told me. representatives from different constituencies. As we Thank you Mr Speaker. are here, the Constitution of Botswana does not dictate that we are delegates and we should therefore vote MR REATILE (JWANENG-MABUTSANE): Thank in a certain manner; that we should vote in blocks as you Mr Speaker. Let me also thank the Honourable per the direction from constituencies at congresses Minister for presenting the Bill before this Honourable given our mandate. The Constitution of this country House. He brings this piece of legislation before this has liberated us to vote in a manner that tomorrow we august House which I have already discussed a number will be able to defend our position before people. Mr of times with radio stations. I believe my position is an Speaker, when delegates get to congresses, they vote open secret since I announced it on radio and now I must according to the mandate they have been sent to execute say it in this honourable House to be recorded in the from constituencies because they are resolutions from Hansard. constituencies. However Mr Speaker, that is not the case in Parliament. Mr Speaker, I am an expert when Mr Speaker, there is no how I can debate this law it comes to floor crossing. I crossed with the Botswana under pretence. I must state what Batswana said like National Front (BNF) seat to… Honourable Kablay just said. Mr Speaker, during the 10th Parliament, it was proposed that on the law in MR SPEAKER: Order! Order Honourable Members! question, we should go and consult Batswana. They You will return that seat when we come back. Let us gave their views. The Bill that we are debating now is adjourn and observe COVID. in effect in other countries. It is not starting for the first PROCEEDINGS SUSPENDED AT 4:00 P.M. FOR time in Botswana. We believe where it is practised in APPROXIMATELY 30 MINUTES other countries, the skies have not fallen and this law is working very well. We should look where this law is PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 4:30 P.M. practised. This law is practised in Uganda and even the “EXCHANGE OF SPEAKERSHIP” one on Specially Elected Members. I have noted that we have done cut and paste from that country. Uganda MR SPEAKER (MR MOATLHODI): Order! uses this law reverently. If you came to Parliament as Honourable Members, please go to your seats; an independent candidate, you cannot move anywhere. Honourable Regoeng, Honourable Autlwetse. Even if you can desire to join any party, the way the HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… Constitution is does not allow you. HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… Mr Speaker, I am worried because democracy in Uganda leaves a lot to be desired. The police are always busy MR SPEAKER: Who is Modukanele? chasing the citizens of Uganda. They started by saying, HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… they are building the Constitution to ensure that they centralise powers on a certain individual. Now that is a MR SPEAKER: Is that Modukanele? Is it not stage of contaminating democracy. Honourable Regoeng?

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HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)…

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… MR REATILE: Mr Speaker, you can note imbalance in that because it is not possible to come up with a law …Silence… which… when a Bill comes to this House, it should be MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Good afternoon universally applicable not a law which is biased towards Honourable Members. When the House broke for some or against one side. refreshments this afternoon, I am reliably informed that So Mr Speaker, we must ensure that we make laws to the Honourable Member for Jwaneng-Mabutsane was assist Batswana instead of coming up with a Constitution still holding the floor, and he still has to himself a quota of the ruling party through the Constitution of the of 15 minutes 10 seconds. country. Mr Speaker, we must understand our targets; MR REATILE: Thank you Mr Speaker. Let me continue whether we address issues of the ruling party or issues from where I stopped. Mr Speaker, I was still informing which are of national interest. my fellow members that the issue of floor crossing to As I move on Mr Speaker, let me highlight that when some of us is not just theory. We are not talking about something we heard from the streets, we actually did it members like Honourable Tshere were debating at and we therefore qualify to debate its history. I do not Gabz FM, they mentioned that this law is being made know who else but I am one of them. for members like Honourable Reatile. The question therefore is, is it possible to come up with a Constitution Mr Speaker, let me point out that I did not just end for an individual? Really! Jesus...(Laughter!)… at floor crossing. I heard Honourable Members attacking Specially Elected Members, I am one of HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… the beneficiaries of Specially Elected programme. Mr Speaker, I have benefitted from this Constitutional MR REATILE: Those are challenges that we face as provision. I also benefitted from Local Government Act we move on Mr Speaker. Some of the members who as I was Specially Nominated Councillor in Southern. I debated raised sound issues Mr Speaker that we have to am one of the beneficiaries and therefore I debate with move this law because it is going to maintain stability. the full knowledge of what the effects of supporting this Indeed Mr Speaker, Constitutional review requires law and continuation of Local Government Act is Mr stability but we cannot stabilise things through floor Speaker. crossing.

Mr Speaker, Constitution Amendment Bill work for Concerning floor crossing, I am wondering what we some and not others. Mr Speaker, let me explain further, are aiming at in terms of Constitutional review such if right now Honourable Dumelang Saleshando can… that we are trying to block members from joining other no, let me not say Dumelang Saleshando, let me say parties. Perhaps they are going to make sections which Honourable Boko since he is not the Leader of Umbrella are going to force people to leave and join other parties. for Democratic Change (UDC) can expel Honourable The truth Mr Speaker is; Batswana are the ones who Motsamai, Honourable Motsamai can take his case to are going to do Constitutional review not us. We on the court. If he gets to court and it agrees that his expulsion other hand are only going to come here to move what was not procedural and he should therefore continue as they said or to implement their opinions and ideas. Mr a UDC member, he is going to continue as a member Speaker, they are saying we should pass this law so as of UDC. The same applies to Honourable Mmolotsi, if to maintain stability but that is not the case, there will be Mr Gaolathe expels him and he goes to court and the no Constitutional review, but they will bring instructions court rules in his favour, he is going to continue as a or commands. Batswana are refusing and we will have member of Alliance for Progressives (AP). Mr Speaker, national outcry in terms of amending the Constitution. this law does not apply to a BDP member because if you That is why we are trying to gain stability by ensuring are expelled from BDP, Section 41 of the Constitution that we lock people in the parties that they have joined. does not allow you to take your case to court. When you get there, your expulsion letter from Botswana Batswana are going to revolt looking at how we intend to Democratic Party (BDP) bears the President’s signature review the Constitution. If we allow Batswana to do it or and the Constitution of Botswana does not allow for the consult them, no one is going to revolt because they are President to be prosecuted. the ones who would have come up with the Constitution

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of Botswana. That is why we go for referendums from MR SPEAKER: Honourable Reatile, use proper time to time, where we do consultations and we never language; we do not say they are not resourced but they experienced any problems. are not provided with resources for transport.

Mr Speaker, the idea that we should hold by-election MR REATILE: Hallelujah! They are not provided when a member resigns is a great one. It is not wrong with resources to perform their duties with excellence to hold a by-election. The only challenge Mr Speaker is Mr Speaker. That is where the problem is and that is that, we should have held 11 by-elections for Members why we are saying this Constitution was not made of Parliament but I do not remember the number of for Batswana, but for those who live in Gaborone. councillors, in 1998 when Botswana Congress Party These Dikgosi come to Gaborone, we consult them in (BCP) was formed. We did not have budget for that and Gaborone and when they leave here, they are not able even today when we have this law Mr Speaker, those to consult their people or even consult other Dikgosi. Batswana who want to leave Umbrella for Democratic We are not providing them with resources so that they Change (UDC), Botswana Patriotic Front (BPF) or can consult their people. That is why I am saying Mr BDP are still going to resign so that we can go for by- Speaker, we should be saying that we consulted the elections. eight Dikgosi, those who were provided with resources.

There is that time where you can endure how management Mr Speaker, there is nothing wrong with the idea to is treating you, whether painful or good and there is yet amend the issue of elections. We should focus on issues that time where you will feel that enough is enough. of direct election of the President where we ensure that we vote for a President just as we do for other members. This is where you resign or withdraw membership. Right now we are saying that Ms Kokorwe, a Member of This is where you accept that even if you die, you have Parliament for Thamaga at that time, brought a Motion had enough and you are no longer going to live in that that we should not allow floor crossing. Honourable kind of a situation. When those people resign from their Majaga, Member of Parliament of Nata-Gweta brought a parties Mr Speaker, we will go for many because we Motion that we must vote for presidency and Parliament made a procedure that if a Member of Parliament or a agreed. The question therefore is, why do we choose to deal with the Motion by Ms Kokorwe and leave the Councillor leave their party, we will go for by-elections one by Honourable Majaga since these Motions were because Botswana has a lot of money. Just see the both brought to this House? Let us deal with both of expenses that we are going to have Mr Speaker. them. We must make a provision such that when the The idea that we must consult the Dikgosi is a good one. President appoints Cabinet, when he gets members like The Constitution allows us to consult them concerning Honourable Manake and Honourable Kereng out there issues that pertains to the Constitution. So Mr Speaker, and appoint them, no one will hate them on the basis we have consulted 35 Dikgosi who are at Ntlo ya that proper channel was not observed. We have to make Dikgosi. From these 35 Dikgosi Mr Speaker, those who the Constitution in a manner that gives him the right are resourced by the current Government are eight. I am to appoint Cabinet of his choice. This way, he will be referring to those who are able to use BX to tour around able to run the country through the help of Cabinet, not Members of Parliament. The responsibility of Members their villages to inform their people that they requested of Parliament will be to come to the House and make us to review the Constitution of Botswana. Those who laws. We do not want a situation whereby Ministers will come from Kweneng Region and Ngwaketse West be instantly dropped from the Cabinet. Region are resourced. They do not have much impact on the affairs of their villages, they simply come to the Mr Speaker, we have mentioned that our intention is Kgotla, sit down until sunset then go home after work. to protect the interests of Batswana. So I thought it is It is not possible for them to tour around the villages important to include this point in the Constitution, to because Government has abandoned them, forgetting empower Batswana so that they have the power to recall that they oversee a big constituency and they usually a Member of Parliament (MP) and a Councillor if they cover three constituencies of Honourable Members. believe they are out of order. A situation whereby they Unfortunately, Mr Speaker, these Dikgosi are not are going to be at liberty to choose a member of their resourced and we will claim that we have consulted choice for that position. That is where we have to start, them while they are also not able to consult their people, a point of departure in terms of protecting the feelings of that is not right Mr Speaker... Batswana Mr Speaker.

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Mr Speaker, I am not convinced that we have thoroughly MR SALESHANDO (MAUN WEST): Thank you Mr researched on the power we are giving the voter to date Speaker. I once informed the Speaker and we agreed if we say we are amending the Constitution. You can that I cannot manage to debate for a long time wearing hear that our debate is focused on voters but there is a mask. I think I am safe since the Member sitting next no content, we are not addressing their problems. Mr to me is not here. I want to comment on this issue from Speaker, there is an outcry at the constituencies; that is a different perspective. I had the privilege of attending why I usually suggest that the President should appoint classes which taught about electoral system during my Ministers outside Parliament because if he appoints school days. I was taught that selecting an electoral those in Parliament, they are accused of abandoning their system is similar to when you have to take a journey constituencies. That is the reason why we lose many to Francistown and you are asked if you will travel by Ministers during Botswana Democratic Party (BDP) airplane or train. You cannot opt for travelling by an primary elections because they serve the country and airplane but say you want the one which uses rail. I not constituencies. If we were to implement Honourable think we understand each other. Majaga’s motion, we were going to save good politicians who are in this House and are now going to lose primary HONOURABLE MEMBER: We do not. elections because of their appointments by the President MR SALESHANDO: You cannot opt for an airplane to be Ministers. That is the only thing which… and say you want it to use rail. We have also made a MR HIKUAMA: Clarification Mr Speaker. Thank choice, Mr Speaker there is an electoral system which you Honourable Member. Honourable Member, kindly put emphasis on a party. You are opting if you want enlighten me on this point; you are talking about an electoral system which prohibits floor crossing, the amending the electoral system to allow for a lot of emphasis is on the party, there is no argument there things which are needed in the law. So my question is, in about the kind of electoral system. There is also an your view we were promised that in January we will be electoral system which puts emphasis on the candidates, reviewing the whole Constitution, so what is the drive they differ. We are arguing today because the Botswana behind tabling this Bill? Since you belong to the same Democratic Party says they want an electoral system party, maybe you could have heard the real concern. which emphasis on candidates. This decision was adopted by the Constitution in 1965. If you read about MR REATILE: Honourable Hikuama, it is normal the composition of Parliament, you are going to find maybe the question you could be asking is, what did in Section 58 of our Constitution, talking about how the spirit reveal to you? Do not say because I belong to members are elected. Section 58 Sub-section 2 (a) the same party as them. You could be asking what the talks about 57 elected members who shall be elected. spirit revealed to me. The heavens revealed that there is It does not talk about parties, the Constitution talks going to be a serious outcry from the men and women of about candidate. Now if you look at the Electoral Act; this country because of the Motions that seek to amend the part which talks about the procedure to register as a the Constitution. If we are going to bring the ones they candidate is from Section 35 to 47 of the Electoral Act. are going to bring, we will fear nothing and continue to From Section 35 to 47, the word ‘candidate’ appears 20 amend the Constitution without suspending it with the times. The Electoral Act emphasises candidate. Political floor-crossing Motion. We are debating it because there party in Section 35 to 47 appears once, talks about how is going to be an outcry in Botswana because of how we you vote for party colours and the candidate. Clearly bring laws. Honourable Member, I just explained that those who wrote the Constitution made a decision that we recently benchmarked this Bill at Uganda; you have they want to adopt an electoral system which emphasises to understand what is happening at Uganda and that is exactly what is going to happen in Botswana. We should on the candidate not the party. That is why if you read not fail to find words to present in this House; we are the Electoral Act, it emphasises on the candidate not going to experience the effects of democracy and we the party. So what we are doing now, if you can call should know that there is no one from another country someone, a first year student of Political Science, he/ who brought it to us, we are the ones who created them she can be surprised that there can be a debate to in this House. We have to make a decision to opt if we adopt the First Past the Post which emphasises on the want the Constitution to be strict. Mr Speaker, I do party. In Botswana, do they not know that if you want submit. to emphasise the party you adopt a different system

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called ‘Proportional Representation’ which is clear. democracies he is referring to is England, Australia and If you cross the floor, you lose the seat. Currently the Canada, they allow floor-crossing. “My belief is that it Botswana Democratic Party says it wants high heels but is not something…” well, the font is not clear. His point they should be able to run 100 metres with those shoes, was mature democracies allow floor-crossing, back then it does not make sense. he was surprised as to why the Botswana Democratic Party prohibited floor-crossing in the first process, that HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Applause!)... is the point he was making.

MR SALESHANDO: Members of Parliament are not HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure Mr Speaker. being honest in their debates. Member of Parliament for Francistown, Billy Buti, you remember yesterday MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND saying… COMMUNICATIONS (MR SEGOKGO): On a point of procedure. Thank you Mr Speaker. The Honourable ASSISTANT MINISTER OF YOUTH Leader of the Opposition truncated a quotation and then EMPOWERMENT, SPORT AND CULTURE started explaining. I do not think it is proper and right. DEVELOPMENT (MR BILLY): Point of order Mr He asked to quote, you gave him the opportunity, so he Speaker. Thank you Mr Speaker. Can the Leader of the just truncated it, and he did not conclude, but started Opposition please call me Buti Billy, not Billy Buti. explaining a thing he did not conclude on. Thank you.

MR SALESHANDO: My apologies. Honourable MR SPEAKER: I could not have agreed with you Buti Billy for Francistown, you said there are other Honourable Minister. I thought he was just only on an countries which have adopted the system we currently insertion, but Honourable Leader of the Opposition… want to adopt. If you cross the floor, you lose your seat and he gave an example about Namibia but he should MR SALESHANDO: Okay, let me read the entire know that in Namibia, they are not using the system quotation. “So when you look at Commonwealth Madam of First Pass the Post, they have adopted Proportional Speaker, most of Commonwealth countries which we are also a member of, starting from England, Australia Representation, it is a way to mislead. While correcting and Canada, they allow this.” ‘This’ meaning floor I want to give an example, given by…Since this is not crossing. “Mature democracies allow floor crossing. the first time debating this Bill, it was debated in 2011. My belief is that this is not the first time floor crossing I am going to quote Honourable Fidelis Molao’s debate has happened.” If you read the entire presentation, who back then was against this Bill to prohibit people Honourable Fidelis Molao was opposing the prohibition to cross. of floor crossing because it is procedural and they HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… clearly state that it is for Commonwealth countries who use First-Past-the-Post; mature democracies. Clearly, if MR SALESHANDO: Yesterday he was giving reasons Honourable Fidelis of 2011 meets the one of 2020, it is of the advantages to cross. We have Members of going to be a problem. Parliament who if they are at the backbench, if you ask him what colour this envelope is, he will say white. The HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation Mr Speaker. moment he is appointed Minister and is asked the same MR SPEAKER: Before you speak Honourable question, he will listen to what the leadership says first, Member for Sefhare-Ramokgonami, I was just going to if they say it is black, he will also say it is black. I want remind the Honourable Leader of the Opposition to put to quote with your permission what Honourable Molao on his mask. He is the only one who puts on his shield. said. Honourable Member for Sefhare-Ramokgonami, you MR SPEAKER: Please do quote Honourable Leader have been given a slot. Is it not? He yielded for you. The of Opposition. Honourable Leader of the Opposition yielded for you.

MR SALESHANDO: It was the year 2011, he said, DR GOBOTSWANG: Elucidation. Thank you Mr “if you now look at Commonwealth countries, they Speaker. It has been taken because I was going to ask were under the British rule. Mr Speaker, the problem Honourable Leader of the Opposition (LOO), that when with Commonwealth countries starting from England, Honourable Molao of 2011, meets Honourable Molao Australia and Canada is that they allow such.” Mature of 2020, will he recognise him? Thank you.

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HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Laughter!)… a party, when you take another candidate, the party was able to lose that constituency. That indicates that voters MR SALESHANDO: No, he will not recognise him do not want that candidate and the party he or she has and I believe there is going to be a fight between them if been a member of.” He was telling the truth because they discuss this issue of floor crossing. people often get voted because of their parties and when HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation Mr Speaker. they die for example, a by-election is held and the party loses because the people did not vote for the party. Those MR SALESHANDO: I will yield for Honourable are the reasons that were given by Honourable Fidelis Molao of 2020. Molao of 2011. The 2020 Honourable Fidelis Molao says no, people vote for a party. I do not know if it is MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION (MR Mandela who said you should be afraid of a leader who MOLAO): Elucidation. Mr Speaker, I do not have give different reasons depending on who is listening. a problem with Honourable LOO quoting the words I said at that time. Clearly, I did not explain to him MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION (MR further and that is because what I said at that time, the MOLAO): On a point of order Mr Speaker. Thank you circumstances were not the same as now. The issue that Mr Speaker. I still insist that I do not have a problem we were concerned about at that time, the way the law with being quoted, but the problem is when you quote was at that time, there was a clause which stated that selectively out of context. I said here yesterday when we if you were fired from a party, you lose your position were debating, we can go and take yesterday’s Hansard as Member of Parliament or Councillor. That is what I so that it can be read here. Clearly, yesterday I said queried. Even a few days ago when it was drafted, when research has shown that yes, people vote for a party and we met at Caucus and at Cabinet, I still raised the same because he is deliberately quoting me out of context, concern that if there is a clause that state that when you now he is misleading the nation. It cannot pass on like are fired you lose your position, I have a problem. that.

MR SPEAKER: You are on borrowed time Honourable MR SPEAKER: Please go to the point that you are Minister, do not eat on his time. querying Honourable Minister.

MR MOLAO: So that is what I wanted to explain that MR MOLAO: The point I was making is that, people nothing has changed… vote for a party and research has shown that the majority MR SALESHANDO: Thank you Mr Speaker… of voters vote for a party. You as a candidate, people that we call the swing voters, add onto what you got from the MR SPEAKER: We cannot have both of you standing. party. That is what I said yesterday. I did not discount…

MR MOLAO: …but circumstances have now changed. HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Murmurs)…

MR SALESHANDO: Yes. Thank you Mr Speaker. I MR MOLAO: Keep quiet… was clear on the section I was quoting. I was not quoting him when he talked about when you are fired, but when MR SPEAKER: You are on borrowed time. he talked about the procedure of First-Past-the-Post in Commonwealth. Anyway, to remind him again, it was MR MOLAO: Yes, I did not discount the fact that a not the only point. Yesterday Honourable Fidelis Molao candidate has his or her own votes, but even the party was emphasising that he believes that when most people has its own votes. It is a fact; I said it, and I still say it vote, they are not voting for the candidate, they are now. I do not know where the problem is. voting for the party. That is Honourable Fidelis of 2020. Let me read for you what the one for 2011 was saying. HONOURABLE MEMBER: So point of order? I want to give him a second quotation and it will be the MR MOLAO: No, he must quote me properly. last one. He said, “the issue that has been said that we know that people vote for a party, we know that you MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Yes, he stood on a point vote using a party symbol, and on top of that, even that of order, and I have to give a ruling. I have heard much of candidate is elected. That is why you can see that even his submission being a point of correction rather than on in constituencies that were labelled as the stronghold of a point of order. Honourable Leader of the Opposition!

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MR SALESHANDO: You are doing him a favour that not have a Bible I will buy one for you for Christmas, it does not become point of order because if it can be so that you can learn that sometimes keeping quiet point of order, I would bring the evidence of Honourable shows that a person is wise. The resignation letters that Fidelis of 2020 strongly opposing the one of 2011. So Honourable Balopi receives on a daily basis, all of us see since the one of 2011 is not here, let me move on. them on social media. In the constituency represented by Fidelis… Mr Speaker, parties can change. I was in this Parliament when the Secretary General of the BDP at that time HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of correction. called Spencer Rammidi was having a problem that his MR SALESHANDO: …people have resigned. party broke the promise of protecting workers. He had Honourable Majaga, one left this week, maybe the a big problem that now his party wanted everyone to be Secretary General has not informed you since you have an essential service, creating a conflict on the promise been suspended. They are resigning. he made to his constituents when he was campaigning. What you are saying is that, when that is the case, you HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of correction. should just stay there and there is nothing you can do, even though voters can see that the party has now turned MR SALESHANDO: I will not accept it because my its back on them on things that you promised them. time is up. The one who could have read Job 13: 5 is the one who used the time I could be giving you. Like right now, the artists who sang for Domkrag when they were campaigning for the elections, they are Here is the truth; there is this expression that says, ‘a complaining that the party has turned its back on them. train has been derailed…’ so here the BDP is trying to Parties change and under First-Past-the-Post, when the cover itself up with the Constitution. This is not good for party has changed, you should not prohibit the candidate the country because to them a Constitution is something from saying I do not agree with you here. Look at this, they use to cover themselves up. They are naked like this law was first brought here in 2011, it was brought Adam when he was found in the Garden of Eden. here because BDP was losing its members to BMD. Members of the BDP should not get accustomed to using the Constitution in this way. I suspect Honourable Today, the reason why the Secretary General of the BDP Reatile is telling the truth when he says even bigger is not here, every single day he is always busy receiving things are going to come during the amendment of the letters of people resigning from the BDP. Now you Constitution. You were here Mr Speaker when some have come rushing with the Bill again and you are even members requested that we should not knock off late, saying if we do not finish it, we will have to spend the and the leadership refused and they voted with their night here and pass it because the BDP is tired… seats when they went outside. Imagine if the closing of the door meant people should stay where they are, MINISTER OF YOUTH EMPOWERMENT, where would those people be? Only a few remaining SPORT AND CULTURE DEVELOPMENT (MR would remain, like Honourable Reatile who has been RAKGARE): Point of order. Thank you very much. suspended; in West Africa, they say ‘a dead goat fears Mr Speaker, Honourable Balopi is on an official no knife.’ This is the reason he is talking the way he assignment, he has not gone to receive any letters from is because the date for a hearing has already been set. anyone resigning. Please call the Honourable Leader of Others are in trouble because if they shut themselves the Opposition to order. I thank you. inside a party, they are getting themselves into trouble. MR SPEAKER: It is going to become very difficult The question that has not been answered remains. If this for me because he did not say anything to me when he thing is causing trouble, we said we were going to look went away, I was not even sure he is not in Parliament, at the Constitution in January; do you want to tell me that 30 days is the one making you rush like this, and but in short, I do not know where Honourable Balopi you cannot wait for a Constitutional review because we is. Honourable Leader of the Opposition, if the words need to consider not only the Constitution, but even the slipped out of your mouth sir, correct that. laws that have to do with the administration of elections, MR SALESHANDO: Honourable Rakgare, there is no like I said? Explaining to Batswana that you want an point of order. I said you should go and read Job 13: 5. electoral system in which the seats are held by a party, I can see that it is difficult for you to read it, if you do hence we should amend Section 58 of the Constitution,

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which says only elected candidates would come; it I would like to warn the members of the BDP who should remove elected representatives and talk about assume that when the leadership has spoken… party representatives. This is what we are supposed to do. Then when launching, on the t-shirt we will not print, MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Order Honourable “As Kwape I request you vote for me,” we would just Leader of the House, I shall have to ask the Parliamentary put a symbol of a jack and remove your face completely. Counsel (PC) for some assistance. Does it really say It should not be said ‘a candidate is being launched,’ but they should not take part or they should not vote? rather say ‘a party is being launched.’ You know that it HONOURABLE MEMBER: Vote. is how we do things, a party is not launched, rather it is a candidate who is launched. When campaigning, we do MR SPEAKER: They do not vote. It means there is not just write the name of the party, we put their face to nothing that stops them from interjecting. say, ‘when you talk about elections in this constituency, MR SALESHANDO: Yes, we shall be debating with you shall be voting for me.’ people whom when we render the verdict they will not Let us tell the truth and stop making Batswana emotional take part. That is why I am saying it means even my by saying they become sad when they see an MP joining driver can come and sit somewhere there and ask me to a different party. In addition, even those whom Batswana give him a clarification. rejected are talking, and I wonder if they do not think HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… Batswana are not hurt when they see someone they have rejected in Parliament, yet they said no to them through MR SPEAKER: In any case, they are Members of the ballot. The hypocrisy here is of the highest order, that Parliament sir. It is up to you sir. people went for elections and when they were asked, ‘do you want this one in Parliament as well,’ they gave MR SALESHANDO: Since you are begging for him, an answer to say, ‘no, not that one, we want Honourable let me yield Mr Speaker. Mathoothe.’ In being sworn in, the one who was rejected ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL has to be sworn in before Mathoothe. Roy Sesana had an GOVERNMENT AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT expression which he sometimes used, saying someone (MR AUTLWETSE): Clarification. After holding back would be possessed by an ancestral spirit. I do not know you eventually yielded for me, I thank you Honourable what he meant, but I suspect they are going through a Member for allowing me to seek clarification. Let me similar experience of being possessed. We are talking ask you a question my little brother; between losing about the amendment of the Constitution in which the and… Specially Elected Members are not allowed to vote. So Honourable Autlwetse, I was going to yield for you… MR SPEAKER: You are asking what?

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. MR AUTLWETSE: The Honourable Leader of Opposition, I just wanted to ask a question here my little MR SALESHANDO: …if you were going to take part brother… in the voting on this Bill. MR SPEAKER: That is the word I was trying to listen MR SPEAKER: Clarification sought. to very attentively.

MR SALESHANDO: No, it will be similar to allowing MR AUTLWETSE: I beg to withdraw that word. the security guards that side to seek clarification. Honourable Autlwetse’s explanation will not assist MR SPEAKER: Honourable! us in any way, the Constitution says when issues like MR AUTLWETSE: His time Mr Speaker. If losing this are discussed he should be silent and he should lections is a sin, what do you make of someone who lost not vote with us. Himself and other Specially Elected elections in Gaborone and they thought of running away Members, the likes of Honourable Serame, they are just to go and contest in a far place where he has never lost accompanying us. The Constitution says they should before… not take part in voting on it. I could be yielding, so the problem is that I would be violating the Constitution if MR SPEAKER: Quickly Honourable Member, he has I allow him. no time.

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MR AUTLWETSE: …and he remembered that home wedge between us should continue to do that, God will is always best, or having a mind of cheating those… deal with them. I want to be bold when I talk about this issue because last time in 2014, most of the people were MR SPEAKER: You are on borrowed time Honourable with Dr Khama, some of us were on his side. When we Minister. formed the government in 2019, we served in Khama’s MR SALESHANDO: Yes Mr Speaker, his point has government, we then served in his government and we been made. If relocating from a city and going home endorsed people. When Dr Masisi took governance, the is a crime, you could have judged Kagiso Mmusi’s nation that was on the other side, I am talking about father because after losing to Kenneth Koma, he carried people out there and other legislators who represented his luggage and went home. Young ones have a way constituencies all rallied behind the new President Dr of learning from adults (E anywang e leletse, e ruta e Masisi. That was not wrong because he is a leader. The maleng). That is not a problem and it is not surprising. issue that I want to clarify is that there is a statement My warning to the members of BDP is that, if you are that is uttered here about me, Honourable Kablay and just going to pass this Bill, there is an expression which Honourable Reatile who is suspended, where do I fall... says, “you are behaving like a turkey that is voting for HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Laughter!)... an early Christmas.” You are going to be slaughtered, voting that Christmas should come early, yet knowing MR MAJAGA: ...and Honourable Moswaane who that an axe is waiting for you. Those of you who can defected, that statement is common and it is made by jump ship, do so whilst there is still time. I thank you. some Honourable Members in this House. Today I want to address it straight! Live! People, we do not have a HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Applause!)... problem with positions, we are Members of Parliament MR MAJAGA (NATA-GWETA): Thank you Mr of Botswana and we will continue if people send us Speaker. I have only a few words to say about this to be Members of Parliament. I used to say that we Motion because at my Constituency, they call me cannot write an interview for the position of Minister Job but I support this Motion wholeheartedly. Let me of Transport and Communications, the post that is held proceed to say... by my friend Honourable Segokgo, no, that cannot HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Murmurs)... happen. Those are the constitutional powers of His Excellency (HE) the President, he can choose whoever MR SPEAKER: Honourable Members, lower your he wants. So there is an issue in which it seems like voices. people are tormenting us, but we have been served in MR MAJAGA: The Minister’s Motion is talking about two governments. They are saying that maybe we want us, we are talking about issues of this House. When positions, maybe we are angry, what angered us? you pay attention to it, it is complicated, you can be conflicted but that is not wrong because the Constitution HIS HONOUR THE VICE PRESIDENT (MR has made it to be like that, as we sometimes fight for TSOGWANE): Point of elucidation. Let me elucidate on our rights, Dikgosi and Magistrates talking about them the point that you are raising Honourable. Honourable, in this Honourable House, because it is constitutional. you should also stress the point that we often have, I will continue to talk about politics and other things, instances whereby people are appointed to Cabinet only not offending or attacking anyone but simply trying to to be dropped before the end of their term. I was once boldly explain that I have not had any differences with appointed to Cabinet, dropped, and appointed yet again. President Dr Mokgweetsi Eric Keabetswe Masisi... Newspapers even interviewed me at that time when I MR SPEAKER: His Excellency the President. was dropped from Cabinet saying that Dr Khama has abandoned me. I told them that, Dr Khama has powers MR MAJAGA: Yes that is what I am saying, I added to make up the Cabinet that he wants to work with, and the word Doctor which is a prestigious title... he later appointed me. So that is basically what you are HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Laughter!)... saying, that you cannot all be in the cabinet at the same time, some will be appointed and some will not make MR MAJAGA: Which is above the ‘Mr’ tittle. So I have the cut. So that is used... never had any differences with him, and I am not going to have problems with him. Those who are drawing a HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Interruptions!)...

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MR SPEAKER: May we have order please! culture it is wrong and I would really pray that, please let us address each other with respect, more especially to MR TSOGWANE: As you can hear that they are someone of the status of his Honour the Vice President. making noise, this is what the nation does not want. The I plead that you should address each other with respect, likes of Honourable Boko, they are not even putting please! And I am saying please! on their masks and they are intentionally spreading the virus in Parliament. Thank you. MR MAJAGA: Thank you Mr Speaker. Thank you...

MR MAJAGA: Thank you Leader of the House, let me MR BOKO: Point of order. Mr Speaker, the Setswana say... culture that I studied somewhere also taught me that, “susu o tshwanetse go ilela suswane,” which means MR BOKO: Point of order. Mr Speaker, His Honour that elderly people should respect young people so that the Vice President should understand that we sometimes young people may also respect them. So there is no how give him respect looking at the years that he has served we are going to give the Vice President respect if he in this House although I doubt his intelligence, I respect does not respect us. When he says that I am spreading that he is an elder... the virus... this is not the first time, I think he has been sent to attack me every time in Parliament. I do not HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Laughter!)... like that. That is why I am addressing him the way I MR BOKO: I am simply saying that sometimes he am addressing him, maybe he will stop doing what he should choose suitable words when he is talking to us. is doing. He is old, there is a way in which he should When he starts saying that I am spreading the virus conduct himself so that we may learn from him. He has in Parliament, I believe that he is imputing improper been here for over 20 years and he does not show that motives on me. Maybe he should withdraw that he has been here for over 20 years. I still maintain that statement that I doubt his intelligence. Thank you Mr statement because at that time I was wearing a mask. Mr Speaker. Speaker, I plead that he should withdraw that statement. Yes I do doubt his intelligence and so does everyone LEADER OF THE HOUSE (MR TSOGWANE): else, I only respect him because he is an elderly person. Point of procedure. I do not have a problem if my I plead that he should withdraw that statement. With all intelligence is doubted by Honourable Boko, not at due respect. all! That is his opinion, he can doubt all he wants, and I do not have a problem with what he is saying. I am HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Murmurs)... reminding him and I will continue to remind everyone MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Let us have order who is not putting on his/her mask that they should stop please. I think we are all wearing masks so that we do doing that because they are spreading the virus. If he not spread or contact the virus. That is the main message is opposing that thing, it is all up to him. He will tell behind it, it is not an insult to anyone. What I will plead Batswana outside there that it is just a joke when they with your good self Honourable Member for Mahalapye are told to wear their masks, that it is not wrong nor is East, I personally find it very disrespectful to say, “I it the procedure. So I do not have any problem, he may doubt his intelligence” to a person holding the Vice doubt or hurl insults the way you want. As you just said, President position, in our Setswana culture... “susu ilela suswane, gore suswane a tle a go ilele,” I do not know how I insulted you, but it is up to you, I HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Interruptions!)... will leave everything to you. You may hurl insults or do other things, I do not have a problem with you, but I will MR SPEAKER: May we have order please! I am remind you where you are not doing right. standing and I am making a ruling... HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order. HONOURABLE MEMBER: ...(Inaudible)... MR SPEAKER: I was just about to say the discussion MR SPEAKER: May we have order please! In our on the matter that His Honour the Vice President was Setswana culture, it is not polite to say “I doubt his responding to Honourable Boko is shut; it is closed. intelligence” referring to a person of the status of His Honour the Vice President. Maybe it might not be wrong MR MOTSAMAI: Point of order. Honourable Boko according to the English culture, but in our Setswana and Your Honour the Vice President, please reconcile.

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Mr Speaker, I would also like to point out that… is why I was confused a little bit as to what is going on. I cannot be allowing procedure and elucidation time MR SPEAKER: Honourable Minister Mmusi, and again. My time is limited, I want to debate on this Standing Order 58.4 says, “when another Member is matter. on the floor others must be silent and should not make unseemly interruption.” MR SPEAKER: May we have order please. Honourable Mmolotsi. MR MOTSAMAI: Mr Speaker, I should point out that maybe we are different. Sometimes when you MR MMOLOTSI: I do not understand what the reprimand me harshly, I do not take it as good advice. problem is. Mr Speaker, the point of procedure I rise on His Honour sometimes when he advises, he uses harsh is, I think we have come to a point where we have realised words unnecessarily. He should stop being harsh. You that it is important to address each other respectfully in can speak harshly to me but Your Honour please stop this House, our positions aside. Mr Speaker, you will being harsh with the young members to avoid the remember that recently… situation that we are in right now Mr Speaker. MR SPEAKER: Honourable Mmolotsi, I have made a MR SPEAKER: Honourable Member, thank you very ruling on that issue... much. You have made your point. MR MMOLOTSI: Even last time when His Honour was saying… HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… MR SPEAKER: Please sit down Honourable Mmolotsi. MR SPEAKER: May we have order please. Honourable I have made a ruling on that issue and I do not want it Majaga. resuscitated.

MR MAJAGA: Thank you Mr Speaker. I run the risk MR MAJAGA: Thank you Mr Speaker. I was still of off timing like old vehicles… explaining that I do not have a problem with anyone and MR MMOLOTSI: Procedure Mr Speaker. Thank will not have any problem with anyone because we are you… all Batswana in this House. Yesterday some were in this party and tomorrow they will move to another one. You MR SPEAKER: Honourable Motsamai, please resume would not know what is going to happen tomorrow or in your seat. the future. I must say this because you find people at odds yet we are fellow members. To debate issues; to agree HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… and to disagree is not a problem because everyone is MR MMOLOTSI: Thank you… entitled to his or her opinion. As Honourable Members, we must accept that. Respect is key. I explained that I MR MAJAGA: Mr Speaker… do not have a problem with His Excellency that those who do that can continue and God will bless them. We MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Just resume your seat know how some came in like I said that it is possible Honourable Mmolotsi. Honourable Members, we are to go from one party to the next. Earlier on, someone in Parliament. Please sit down Honourable Majaga and explained that he is a champion. So, it is life and nobody switch off your microphone. Honourable Members, may knows. we have order, please. We ought to be very respectable men and women. Honourable Members of Parliament, I am 46 years old. If I do not resign or lose elections, let us show our honourability. Honourable Mmolotsi. I am going to work with people. I think I still have 20 years I can use to run for elections. Maybe God will MR MMOLOTSI: Thank you very much… remember me and some will take me in. So, it is life as MR MAJAGA: No, Mr Speaker… we have seen it happening. If you are a real politician, you must be there. MR SPEAKER: He stood on a point of order. We cannot stop points of order. I have said before that I will touch on politics in my debate because this Motion is straight. As a leader or MR MAJAGA: No, at first it was procedure. You used President, you cannot govern a country where you fear to ask people whether granted permission or not. That that members might leave and Government collapses

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owing to certain things you see or suspect are not elect Ministers. Some members opposed. I am not sure done properly. When you are the President like he was if some are in this House. It passed and I believe its time sworn in recently, everything relies on you now. If you will come and it will be included in the Constitution. see something happening, you should come up with a I was looking at that our Ministers oscillate between counter measure. Cabinet and their Constituencies. I was also looking at that our committees will now have more members. I had There is nothing wrong with this Motion. Whether it observed in several countries where they practise that passes, soon the Constitution is reviewed, I do not have where the President does it fairly but it is spoiled by any problem. My problem is where people want their people. However, it does not matter because some come opinions implemented. I do not have a problem with the in through by-elections and others are from different Motion for the sake of stability. We heard that several parties. It is democracy, as long as you respect the laws countries are fighting and so on. Tomorrow some cross of the country, there is nothing wrong. and the Government collapses. The only problem was the Clause which said you will be expelled which Some of the old members are usually persecuted like was amended. I only had a problem where it said the I gave an example of Honourable Kablay. If I do not President will expel you yet he won 29 seats as per our agree with my leader, whether it is Vice President (VP) Constitution and this time he did not make that number. or President, I tell him straight. Whether they listen to I do not have a problem with being expelled as long as I my advice or not is up to them. I do that because I have continue to represent my constituents. been elected by the people and I made the seat which made them a President or a VP. That is how I do my There is no how we can disassociate ourselves from things, I do not worry about other things. Those who party symbols. I have never come up with Majaga are coming will also do other things because if you Constitution. Even Honourable Members were using worry about those issues, the former Presidents failed their party constitutions. If I try now to go somewhere including members like Honourable Haskins and others or I resign, everyone here is committed because we who I do not know their number. We appreciate that they are on a five year contract. Sometimes we are afraid made efforts but we want to do justice for Batswana. of being talked about that you crossed. I do not know about others maybe they do not have children. People I support this Motion and I did not hide it. I have not are committed. If right now you say you want to run consulted residents of Nata-Gweta, I have not, I cannot for elections without money like Jagas, what are you lie. No, I have not done that and I will be lying. This is going to do? We must speak the truth. Batswana, we are a very big constituency which houses many settlements poor. We know the rich people of this country. So where and Remote Area Dwellers (RADs). Kgosi Rebagamang are you going to get the funds to run for elections in a Rancholo of Tutume Sub-District, from Nata is the one constituency which stretches from Gaborone to Lecheng who supported this Motion. He is the one who supported which is 300 kilometres apart like mine without any it together with his colleagues at their House, but I never party input or private sponsor? People who have never consulted them personally. had any problems should ask some of us Jobs, who are always in trouble. The day they have problems, some HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. might faint. MR MAJAGA: I once mentioned in this House that What I want to say is, there is no way of avoiding that, a when it is time to cross I would not cross at night. I will lot of us here though I am not sure because maybe some yield for you comrade. Since I suffer like Job, I once told are rich, we have committed ourselves. If you leave others that if I move from one party to another, I will go here… newspapers want to make sales. Newspaper to the party President and tell them that I am resigning headlines will read; “Majaga loses everything,” to join my uncles’ party or New Jerusalem. They started “Majaga to prison” because he is running for elections talking about “New Jerusalem” and it is during that time yet he does not have funds and so on. I am not saying it when we heard that there is actually a new party called enshrines democracy. We are supporting democracy so New Jerusalem. I still recall and remember it very well, that the Constitution can be amended. because I do not want to leave at night like a witch, as I came up with the law that was mentioned by if I am running away from something. I can only fear Honourable Reggie Reatile, looking at that our Ministers those who voted for me and if they do not vote for me overwork and therefore the President should specially again, I will try again in 2024 and 2029. What matters

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is, if I work well with them, there are some who will my point? The truth is, it does not matter. I also told vote for me just as some did before. They might even them that maybe they were waiting for me to make a vote for me such that I end up as a Councillor just like decision as they expected me to join another party. So many members whom I saw back at home who became they realised that I am still here and they decided to go. Councillors. It will not be a problem, we must be clear It does not matter because I explained that I am going to and straight because these are some of the things which be a consultant, those who are interested in my services make people to develop negative thoughts. will give me tenders just as other people usually do.

So minister Morwaeng; Mokwena, the man with HONOURABLE MEMBER: Further clarification. multiple names, Honourable Rakgare usually assists me with listing these names, Neale Sechele, there is nothing MR MAJAGA: People are able to survive, whether they wrong with this Motion, it can pass, so that we also pass get tenders or not. We have to pass these laws because the Constitution and move forward. That is why I said we did the same when we were under the Government I do not want to talk a lot because I did not consult my of President Khama, we approved them at night. We constituents. amended and did all sorts of things to them. So let us approve this one just as we did with others because we MR MMOLOTSI: On a point of clarification. Thank are still using some of those laws. I was at the forefront you very much Mr Speaker. While still there Honourable on the issues of our allowances, we still have to approve Majaga, what is your position regarding the issue that them because they are not yet finalised. Some of the you are not allowed to join another party even if you Honourable Members who are not here are suffering are expelled from one party? A situation where you are and some of them were appointed as Councillors, so we only allowed to be an independent candidate. Why does have to approve this law so that they can get assistance. this law restrict one from joining another party? What is These are some of the issues which still have to come your position on that? to this House and there is nothing wrong. That is what I intended to say about this law; the symbol of a party, MR MAJAGA: I get your point Honourable Mmolotsi stability of a country and elections will come as we but to me it does not matter as long as I am representing move on. my people. If they say we are the ruling Government, it does not matter whether you are an independent We made a bet that we are going to win elections, so candidate, a Councillor or Member of Parliament of they are calling me to come and collect my P500 which UDC or Alliance for Progressives (AP) because the I really forgot about. developments of Botswana are still going to reach Batswana, regardless. If I get expelled and I become an HONOURABLE MEMBER: I cannot find my receipt. independent candidate, the whole country is going to laugh on the basis that Nata-Gweta is not going to get MR MAJAGA: We will help you to find the receipt any developments. That is my take, but the developments Reggie. These things are there in life. It is also not are surely going to reach the people, whether you are wrong to disagree with something because life will still an opposition member or not. I do not think there is a move on. We are still going to lead our normal lives and problem because when they build a bridge there, they life will still move on. So we have to assist each other are also going to build Nata-Gweta road which leads to across the divide without any problems. We usually Kasane. approve Motions and expelling a member from… since they mentioned that the President… HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. MR MAJAGA: The important thing is that, if you are expelled, everyone will know about it. There are judges MR MAJAGA: …(Interruptions)… is going to run this out there who know a lot of issues and members who are country through consultation, is he going to manage to in this House are not judges. kick everyone out? During the previous Government, people were restricted from voicing out and the threat HONOURABLE MEMBER: Further clarification. was to kick them out if they do so. Some of us were part MR MAJAGA: Someone told me that some of my of the previous Government and we were not kicked Councillors are defecting. I told them that yes, I knew out. So why should we worry if we are not considered about that long ago on the 15th October. Do you get now Honourable Kablay?

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HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. of not less than two-thirds of all the Members of the Assembly.” If we go to the explanation of the Members MR MAJAGA: Leave me and Honourable Kablay of the Assembly, I am taking you back to Section 58 alone so we can serve our people. Appoint those who Mr Speaker, Section 58 (2) reads, “in addition to the desperately want to become Ministers in those posts. We President, the National Assembly shall consist of 57 on the other hand are not worried, so stop persecuting Elected Members who shall be elected in accordance us; that members like Honourable Reggie, Honourable with the provisions of this Constitution and subject Majaga, Honourable Kablay are leaving. I do not know thereto in accordance with the provisions of any Act about Honourable Reggie, he used to sit here and maybe of Parliament.” At 2 (b) it reads, “six Specially Elected it follows the sitting arrangement. Members who shall be elected in accordance with the Leave posts alone because that is going to delay you. First Schedule.” So when we talk about Members of the Assembly Mr Speaker, we are basically referring to HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… elected Members of Parliament and Specially Elected Members of Parliament in Parliament. MR MAJAGA: If at all we are interested, we will go and beg for it since there is no interview. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)…

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… MS MOKGOSI: To clear this confusion, when voting for the Constitution in accordance with 89 (3) b, MR SPEAKER: Can we have order please; we cannot it is not the same as to endorse the Vice President in be all standing. accordance with Section 39 (1) because that one says, MR MAJAGA: Continue to talk but let the country “there shall be a Vice President who shall be appointed smoothly move on without any problems. Leave us by the President from among the Elected Members of alone and fight for your interests. We are members of the National Assembly who are citizens of Botswana by the BDP and we were voted because of that. If at all birth or descent, which appointment shall be endorsed we want to leave, we will bid the President farewell, I by the said Elected Members.” Underline the word mean myself not other members. I will also hold a press Elected Members when endorsing VP, we are talking conference in Gaborone and at Nata. That is how I am, I about Specially Elected Members, they do not vote Mr am not interested in witchcraft. Thank you. Speaker. However, when it comes to the Constitution, MR SPEAKER: Your time is up. Honourable Assistant Specially Elected Members vote. Thank you Mr Minister for Basic Education! May you all sit down Speaker. Honourable Members, I have identified the Honourable Assistant Minister. Before you take your floor, I need to MR SALESHANDO: Clarification. Thank you. When call upon the Learned Parliamentary Counsel to reflect you read about Specially Elected, I heard you say you on the statement as submitted by the Honourable Leader are reading the relevant sections which are related to the of the Opposition. Bill we are discussing. I heard you read somewhere that it cannot pass if not supported by less than two-thirds. LEARNED PARLIAMENTARY COUNSEL (MS Is that the understanding, if you say it is the relevant MOKGOSI): Thank you Mr Speaker. Thank you section? Honourable Members. I thought to clarify this issue so that Batswana will not be confused when you MS MOKGOSI: …(Inaudible)… vote for this Bill. When we look at Section 89 of the MR SPEAKER: Please put on your microphone. Constitution, it states the procedure followed by Parliament when approving the amended Constitution. MS MOKGOSI: Thank you Mr Speaker. At (ii) it says, Looking at Section 89 (3) (ii), it reads thus, if I many “at such final voting, the Bill is supported by the votes quote it Mr Speaker. It reads, may I quote it Mr Speaker, of not less than two-thirds of all the Members of the I will go to the relevant subsection, “(i) a Bill for an Act Assembly.” of Parliament under this section shall not be passed by the National Assembly unless the final voting on the Bill MINISTER OF INFRASTRUCTURE AND in the Assembly takes place not less than three months HOUSING DEVELOPMENT (MR KGAFELA): after the previous voting thereon in the Assembly and Point of order. Mr Speaker, thank you. The Leader of (ii) at such final voting the Bill is supported by the votes the Opposition was asking if the Bill which we are

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now discussing is one of those which requires at least HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure. two-thirds majority. Mr Speaker, it cannot be correct as Learned Counsel said. I did not hear it correctly HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure Mr Speaker. but the Bill that we are discussing affects the tenure of MR NKAWANA: Procedure. Thank you Mr Speaker. Members of Parliament. When you look at Section 68 I think it becomes untidy when we speak like this. We Mr Speaker, it does not fall under Section 89. Section 89 have a Parliamentary Counsel (PC) which Parliament is the one which talks about the requirement that there seeks legal advice from. So it becomes untidy if the be two-thirds majority of all the Members of Parliament. Minister refutes the PC… Section 89 (3) b which requires, it lists some provisions which evade, they are to be amended in addition to two- HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… thirds majority of Members of the National Assembly. It requires that they be subjected to a vote of the people. MR SPEAKER: May we have order please! When you look at Section 89, it lists the provisions of the Constitution which require two-thirds majority. It MR NKAWANA: I think in this matter, if Honourable also lists in addition to the two-thirds majority those now Kgafela has legal advice he can give it to PC in private which require a referendum. Section 68, the one which because they cannot argue in Parliament. Thank you. talks about the tenure of Members of Parliament is not HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of procedure Mr under any one of these, so it does not require two-thirds Speaker. of all the Members of the Assembly. It does not require a vote or a referendum. It requires a simple majority of HONOURABLE MEMBER: Further Procedure Mr Members of the House Mr Speaker. If anybody seeks Speaker. to dispute that, open the Constitution and place a finger on a provision contrary to what I am saying. Thank you HONOURABLE MEMBER: On a point of procedure Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker.

MR SPEAKER: While you are still standing MR TSOGWANE: Procedure. On second thought, I Honourable Minister, can you say it in simple language. might be making a mistake because you did not rule on In other words, what you are saying is not compatible to Honourable Nkawana’s point. My point is Honourable what we are saying. Nkawana is misleading the nation. Learned Counsel requested to explain… MR KGAFELA: No, Mr Speaker, let me put it this way, the Honourable Leader of the Opposition was MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! My apologies Your asking whether the six Specially Elected Members of Honour, you are right I ought to have made a ruling on Parliament, have no right to vote on this Bill and the what Honourable Member for Selebi Phikwe East was Learned Counsel clarified. However, the Learned saying before calling you upon. There is absolutely Counsel explained that, no, they have a right to vote. nothing wrong for any other Honourable Member to During deliberations, the Honourable asked a question criticise what our Learned PC was talking about. It is all if he has heard the Learned Counsel clearly when she in order. Leader of the House, are you done? said this Bill requires two-thirds majority. I heard the Learned Counsel says what seemed to be a ‘yes’. That is MR TSOGWANE: …(Inaudible)… why I stood on a point of order and refuted that. The Bill we are discussing affects tenure of office of Members of HONOURABLE MEMBER: No, he is okay. Parliament. Tenure of Member of Parliament falls under Section 68 of the Constitution. If you look at Section 89 LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION (MR of the Constitution which talks about the requirement SALESHANDO): Further procedure. Well, there is a that there be two-thirds majority of all the Members of vacancy in that other one. the Assembly, it lists the provisions of the Constitution HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… which require two-thirds majority of the whole Assembly, Section 68, is not under any one of these. MR SPEAKER: What are you saying? So it does not require two-thirds of all the Members of Parliament, rather, it requires a simple majority of MR SALESHANDO: Yes, I was saying for the sake Members of Parliament to form quorum during that of progress Mr Speaker, why do you not park this time. issue, so that the debate flows and then at the end,

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Learned Counsel can advise. I am sure she needs to child happening, but our colleagues say they are not reflect as well. When she said two thirds, if you were happening. So how can we expect them to agree with us watching, His Honour the Vice President was nodding on this Bill Mr Speaker? That is the tragedy. in agreement saying yes, yes. When he hears someone from the back say no, half, “yes, yes.” So we want to I can see that our colleagues want us to rule using their have one Parliamentary Counsel, as the one who is manifesto. All the Motions that they say we are opposing supposed to advise this House. Are we not giving her are all in their manifesto; increment of intern allowances the opportunity to give advice to this House, as she has and so on. When you go to war and you win that war, heard everything that was spoken? then after winning that war you say I have won now I am giving the power to my opponent, will things go MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Whoever is putting well? We went to war and we won with this manifesto his or her microphone on, please switch it off. No, it which we are using at the moment. All the accusations is okay. At a later stage, I shall call upon our Learned that have been said here that we failed are not true. They Parliamentary Counsel to speak at a considerable time are saying we failed that is why we are coming with on this matter. Now, I could not agree more with the this kind of Bill. Right now peoples` feelings are raging. Honourable Kereng was really telling the truth that Honourable Leader of the Opposition that our debate we need counselling. The anger in this House is very should flow. Honourable Assistant Minister responsible high. We do not know what to do about it. They almost for Basic Education, I had identified you to hold your stood up and caused chaos, saying we are afraid. I do floor. Please go ahead. not know what we are afraid of? We are not afraid. We ASSISTANT MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION are not afraid at all. I think that those who are afraid are (MS MAKWINJA): Thank you Mr Speaker. Let me those on the other side because this law Mr Speaker, sets also respond to this Bill. I remember that right now, things straight. Batswana are wondering that as this Constitutional So let me get onto the issue of the Bill Mr Speaker. I was Review Bill seems straight-forward like this, why are still just mentioning them. In a democracy, the people Honourable Members moving in circles, what is wrong are the ones who vote for their representative. I want with them? I want Motswana at home to know that we a Motswana at home to hear me. That representative are in this House and they are the ones who brought us is brought here by a party except for independent democratically. candidates, and he or she should also have a manifesto. So I support the Bill that was put before us by Honourable It is just simple as that. This vote is made by someone Morwaeng. If Honourable Members no longer want to who aligns it to a party. A vote that is made freely like represent people using the party that brought them to the one we have in our country, that is democracy. They this House, let us go back. People should be consulted say a democracy is very simple. The people are the ones and they should choose. If they want you, they will who brought you here, go back to them and say to them always vote you. There is no problem. That is why I am that it seems like you have found a new home. There is saying, this issue is simple. I can see that Honourable no problem, they will vote for you again if they want Members that side will never agree with us Mr Speaker. you. It says it all. Ever since we responded to the President’s speech, they have never agreed with anything. We have mentioned So, you cannot talk about the voter without talking numerous things. We have a year in this House and the about the party. It is a combination of a person and a things which were mentioned by Honourable Mzwinila, party. Mr Speaker, our Honourable Members could we are determined that we are going to implement them, be celebrating this Bill because in our neighbouring and some of them are being implemented, page 25 and country, around 2003, 2004, I do not remember clearly, 26 of our manifesto. Honourable Segokgo; page 32 of they reviewed their Constitution. Mr Speaker, in those our manifesto, they are being implemented. Honourable few years, this review was done by the “Institute for Lefoko is connecting electricity. Honourable Gare; Democratic Alternatives in South Africa (IDASA); Agriculture, we saw the President starting a big project Political Information and Monitoring Service, which of constructing an abattoir so that we can be able to you can google statistics at [email protected]... grow the agricultural sector like we promised on page 25 of our manifesto. These things can be seen by a HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)...

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MR SPEAKER: I will chase you out. and it is not fair on the voters. Eloping with peoples` votes, becoming somersaulters because as I have said, MS MAKWINJA: You can google it. Mr Speaker, in someone would go and vote knowing you are going to their submission to the joint Constitutional Review on represent them under the BDP, AP or the UDC and so floor-crossing Mr Speaker, allow me to summarise what on. they said in English… We are crying about the expenses of by-elections. MR SPEAKER: Quote. Democracy, peace, security are very expensive, as the Members of the opposition have seen that going to court MS MAKWINJA: Mr Speaker, they said, “IDASA saying they have been cheated yet they were not cheated found that floor-crossing undermines the principle of is expensive. Therefore, it has to be clear; it should be participatory democracy envisioned by the Constitution; transparent to a Motswana back at home that when they representatives shuffle across the aisles of power without have voted for Honourable Kekgonegile, he is going to any imperative to consult, or be held accountable to represent them under the UDC, hence there would not citizens, or their opinions. It is reasonable to assert be any confusion. that for each seat swapped in the National Assembly, the voter intention and representation of citizens who Mr Speaker, they are saying Batswana back at home went to the polls in 2004 is nullified, undermining the are saying we should wait for a constitutional review Constitutional provision for the equality of all votes and so that they would take part. Hey! This Bill was long voters, and the right to representation.” Moreover Mr talked about. Honourable Members, we have officers Speaker, and I quote the same article, “this submission back in our offices and we also go around Dikgotla, so will argue that the system of floor-crossing as currently if we did not go around informing the leadership and legislated in the context of an electoral system premised people, enquiring what their take is regarding this Bill, on proportional representation has had the unintended we did not do justice to ourselves. Our officers back effect of undermining the spirit of open, accountable, at our offices could be telling you right now what a transparent and participatory democracy as prescribed Motswana back at home could be telling you directly, by the Constitution”. Further Mr Speaker, a survey that this is a Bill they want. My Botswana Speaks officer released by the Washington Post/Kaiser Family sends me information and even back at the constituency, Foundation and Harvard University in 2004 observed he teaches people about this Bill. I can only take two that, I quote, “63 per cent of respondents indicated some examples, one is in Hatsalatladi, and they had this to or strong disapproval of the floor crossing regime, in say, “if you are elected under a certain party and you which the largest group of respondents about 42 per cent want to defect, leave the seat you were given under that of the sample disapproved strongly.” The defections Mr party and go back to the electorates.” The other one Speaker, were also found to have far-reaching effects on said they were in Gaphatshwa and her name is Moitse, smaller opposition parties. Mr Speaker, that is why I am she said, “Since you were elected by people, you have saying my colleagues that side could be happy because to be removed by the people again.” These are people of this Bill, since it says… back at home, commenting on this Bill. Honourable Members, let us engage these officers to assist us and MR SPEAKER: Did you close your quote? carry out some research for us so that when we come to MS MAKWINJA: I did Sir; I opened, and I closed it this Parliament we would be representing our people. Mr Speaker. Thank you. Therefore as I sum up…

Therefore, to show that indeed this Bill is necessary, ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL one of the Honourable Members yesterday mentioned a GOVERNMENT AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT few countries and I am also going to augment. Namibia (MR MODUKANELE): On a point of clarification. I thank you Mr Speaker. I thank you Honourable Minister. Article 48, Seychelles Article 81, Sierra Leone Article 77, Singapore Article 46, Zimbabwe Article 41, Nigeria MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Pardon me a for a Article 68, Nepal 49, are some of the countries which moment Honourable Member. Am I hearing a phone? Is realised that floor crossing undermines democracy, this amongst Parliamentarians? Honourable Members,

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let us respect our Standing Orders. Standing Order 58.9 HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Inaudible)… strictly prohibits that. The next time he does that, I will send Sergeant-of-Arms to confiscate it and you will MS MAKWINJA: Yes! So that there would be never get it. Oh my goodness! peace and tranquillity because you could be the ones celebrating so that those people who want to jump ship MR MODUKANELE: I thank you Mr Speaker. would join you that side; those who are said to be ready. Thank you Honourable Minister for yielding for me. Let me ask a simple question, and please expound on it Mr Speaker, that is why I do not understand why those Honourable Minister, since we have been sent here by on that side prefer floor crossing because it puts them at people under our party tickets, if I change for whatever a disadvantage; they could be supporting that it should reason when I am already here, and then something tells be allowed, but they are the ones who are going to face me to cross the floor, why would I be afraid to go back its consequences. Why do they not want this Bill? They to the people who sent me here and say, “please give know that if I were ready to jump ship, when I get there I me a fresh mandate, with the colours of a party I would would not know whom exactly I would be joining; they have joined?” I believe this is the fundamental question. do not know who they would be joining because we all This is what the Bill is saying, that if one of us or if want numbers. They just want Members to cross to their Honourable Dr Gobotswang decides to say ‘today I am side in large numbers. That is the only problem on the shifting to such and such a party,’ he should go back to other side Mr Speaker. the people of Sefhare-Ramokgonami who have brought Mr Speaker, I was saying…. him here. What are we afraid of? MR SPEAKER: Why are we now standing when the MS MAKWINJA: It is a bit complicated, but also easy Honourable Member is still holding the floor? because when you know that you are doing something good for the people, you will not be afraid of going back HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… to them. If you know that you were sent by them, if you no longer want that assignment, you have to go back MS MAKWINJA: Mr Speaker, men and women whose to them. We are afraid because we know we would not objective is to represent their voters, cannot oppose this be doing something right for the people and that is the Bill. I am informing the voters back at home that this reason why we are opposing this Bill. Bill is straightforward, they should not be confused by all these statements which are made here. You have Mr Speaker, I just wanted to summarise what the people in my constituency are saying; they say someone would voted for me, I am here because of you. If I want to have been elected and given a mandate by people, hence cross the floor, I should come back to you. Thank you when somersaulting is involved, one has to go back to Mr Speaker. them to go and renew this mandate. HIS EXCELLENCY THE PRESIDENT (DR Honourable Members talked a lot about constitutional MASISI): Thank you Mr Speaker. Good afternoon review. Honourable Morwaeng said it is coming and Honourable Members. I have been listening as this he has outlined the reasons why we have to deal with Parliament debates this Bill Mr Speaker. this Bill so that there would be peace. Constitutional review is a very sensitive issue. Also, you are changing MR KEKGONEGILE: On a point of procedure. Mr governance, hence there should be stability, knowing Speaker, the trend and procedure here is that you take very well who belongs where; be it at home, in two from that side of the aisle, and one this side. You Parliament or at the Council. It is very important. are now consecutively taking the third one from that side, did you perhaps make a mistake? If so, you should HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. correct Mr Speaker?

MR SPEAKER: Clarification sought? MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Members, I am in charge of this House, and nobody is going to tell MS MAKWINJA: Denied! me what to do.

Honourable Members, we were told many people this HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… side are ready to jump ship, so can you not expedite the passing of this Bill so that those who are ready can join MR SPEAKER: I am in charge of the House. Please you that side? resume your floor your Excellency.

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DR MASISI: Thank you Mr Speaker. I was still saying HONOURABLE MEMBER: Order Mr Speaker. that I have been listening attentively… MR SPEAKER: That is the last order Honourable DR GOBOTSWANG: Further procedure. Thank you Kekgonegile. Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, do not be confused by His Excellency (HE) the President because the seat that he MR KEKGONEGILE: Mr Speaker, I rise on Standing is sitting on… Order 5.1 (b). Mr Speaker although you are in charge of this House, you have to run it in accordance with the MR SPEAKER: Please sit down. Standing Orders. Standing Order 5.1 (b) dictates that you should be impartial as a Speaker, you protect the DR GOBOTSWANG: …he is now a Member of minority, but the way you are leading the proceedings Parliament (MP) just like us. does not reflect any impartiality. You are not protecting MR SPEAKER: Please sit down. us, you are favouring and being biased, which is not fair to us. DR GOBOTSWANG: So Mr Speaker, this Parliament has an agreement… MR SPEAKER: Standing Order 59.1 says the Speaker’s word is final, and that empowers me to MR SPEAKER: Honourable Gobotswang, please sit oversee the debates at this House, if not within this down. House. Your Excellency, please resume your floor and I pray for respect and silence please. DR GOBOTSWANG: …that two people debate from that side of the isle… I am not done Mr Speaker…two DR MASISI: Thank you Mr Speaker. I take it that there people debate from that side and then one from this side. will be attentiveness and respect, I was still saying that, I was listening attentively to the Honourable Members HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of procedure Mr as they were debating this Bill. So I saw it fitting that I Speaker. should come here to clarify a few points from this seat. DR GOBOTSWANG: So you cannot change the Let me teach you botho (good conduct) Honourable procedure just because you are confused by the Gobotswang, as a Member of Parliament (MP) sitting President.; that is the only problem. Do not be confused, on this chair. I am an elder. today he is a Member of Parliament just like us. DR GOBOTSWANG: On a point of procedure. Mr HONOURABLE MEMBER: Further procedure Mr Speaker, protect us. I do not know if it is procedural Speaker. for him to say ‘Botho’ (good conduct). When did I DR GOBOTSWANG: When he is sitting on that chair show lack of botho? One of the Members on that side over there, that is when we will give him the honour of of the aisle disrespected me yesterday, and I just kept a State President. Now he is sitting on the chair for a quiet. So I do not know why he is saying that I was Member of Parliament today, so do not be confused. disrespectful to him. Your Excellency, I am older than you and I respect you because you are the President. He HONOURABLE MEMBER: On a point of order. should respect me as his elder. So do not be confused, HONOURABLE MEMBER: Further procedure. the President should debate and stop talking about botho because he will compel me to say things that I do not MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Hold on to that point of want to say Mr Speaker. Thank you. order. Honourable Members, I am in charge of… please switch off your microphone (mic). Do not provoke me; MR SPEAKER: Please, resume your seat. Order! I am a good person but when provoked I am like a snake Order! No Honourable Members, these statements are stepped on the tail. I am in charge of the House, please related but they do not mean the same thing. When the do not tell me what to do, and we need silence. Your President calls your name and talk about botho he does Excellency the President, please resume your floor. not precisely mean that you misbehaved. I understood him to be emphasising the need for botho and this is HONOURABLE MEMBER: Order Mr Speaker. concept upon which I pray we must understand his DR MASISI: Thank you Mr Speaker. submission.

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LEADER OF THE HOUSE (MR TSOGWANE): On here in person to clarify some things as a Member of a point of procedure. Mr Speaker, you are entirely right. Parliament and not as a President. I am also sitting on If you go through the Hansard, you will realise that a lot this chair because in my other portfolio, I am a leader of Members when they wanted to debate, they would cite of a political party. I want to inform this nation of that botho, not necessarily with reference to anybody. Botswana that as a leader of a political party, I have As a national Setswana value, botho is important so… consulted my fellow party members about this Bill in a relaxed atmosphere. Everyone gave their opinions, HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… myself included. We tracked this Bill since it started 22 HONOURABLE MEMBER: On a point of order Mr years ago until recently when it was submitted to Ntlo Speaker. ya Dikgosi. We also discussed their recommendations at length. What I made very clear to my fellow Members MR TSOGWANE: No, you always call out people’s was that, we are not under any pressure to implement names without referring to them… this Bill, and no one is compelled to support or oppose it. What needs to be done is to take it to Parliament MR SPEAKER: He stood up on a point of order. and Honourable Members will hear what Batswana are MR TSOGWANE: You sometimes call people’s names saying and they will pass or oppose this Bill. If there without referring to them. is anyone in the party who is disgruntled, they are free to leave. So, if there are some who are ready to leave, HONOURABLE MEMBER: On a point of order Mr we will later bid them farewell. Even if they leave in Speaker. multitudes, it is not a problem because the Constitution guides us on what to do. The important thing is to have MR KEORAPETSE: Point of order. Yes sir, you political stability in Botswana. Democracy is based on pronounced it properly, I am Lefoko Dithapelo valuing the voter, not where we are voted and we start to Keorapetse. Mr Speaker, when His Excellency think that our rights are superior to those of voters. The the President says that he will teach Honourable opinions and rights of a voter must take precedence and Gobotswang botho, it presupposes that he does not that is what this Bill seeks. have. There is no other interpretation, we might want to protect him because he is the President but that This Bill seeks to promote political tranquility to avoid statement was not proper. When you say that you will the frequent floor crossings. It is stipulated in the teach someone botho, it presupposes that he lacks botho. constitution that every five years a new government He must withdraw. That is all. He cannot come here in is formed and now we want to go ahead and destroy this Parliament which he does not visit often… it. There is still time, people need to make up their minds. Honourable Members, you must remember that MR SPEAKER: Please tone down. even if this law passes, it is still going to be verified, MR KEORAPETSE: Yes, there is a Setswana idiom authenticated and come to me for signing and that is which says, “susu ilela suswane” (elderly people should when it can be implemented. respect young people so that young people can also respect them). MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Sorry, Your Excellency to disrupt your flow of debate. The COVID protocols MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Members, have caught up with us, we shall recess for 30 minutes I can at a later stage authorise my able Clerks to pull out and then be back. the Hansard. I do not precisely remember His Excellency the President saying “I will teach you botho’’ PROCEEDINGS SUSPENDED AT 6:30 P.M. FOR APPROXIMATELY 30 MINUTES HONOURABLE MEMBER: Let us call the Hansard. PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 7:00 P.M. MR SPEAKER: Alright, we will call for the Hansard. We shall call for the Hansard. Let us tone down. Your MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Good evening Excellency, please resume your floor. Honourable Members. When the House adjourned for some refreshments about 30 minutes ago, His DR MASISI: Thank you Mr Speaker. I was still saying Excellency the President of the Republic of Botswana that I was listening to the Honourable Members as they was holding the floor and he still has to himself a quota were debating this Bill. So I found it fitting to come of 14 minutes, 54 seconds.

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DR MASISI: Thank you Mr Speaker. I will not use up DR MASISI: When I say build ourselves, I am talking the time allotted to me but I want to clarify what was about building Botswana. So this… said by Honourable Gobotswang… HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. MR KEKGONEGILE: Procedure. Mr Speaker, please correct this because it seems as if we went for DR MASISI: Honourable Mmolotsi, allow me to finish refreshments whereas we went out for COVID-19 my point. This affects both sides of the House that even break. Some of us did not even touch anything. that side, if there is anybody who is thinking of floor crossing to any party must be free to do so before this MR SPEAKER: I accept the correction. law comes into effect. If they believe like they have been saying that these are people’s views, all the better, DR MASISI: Mr Speaker, I wanted to briefly address they should allow it to be implemented. Anyone who is Honourable Gobotswang since he expressed his not sure what might happen should wait. After this law displeasure on the statement I made and I withdraw it is implemented, he or she must cross and we go for re- in its entirety. elections, that is the deciding factor. Whoever will rush, HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… you should know that they have made up their mind that the party they have been in is not the one for them. There DR GOBOTSWANG: Procedure. Mr Speaker, I accept is nothing wrong with that, they will be exercising their what the President said. When an elder realises that he legal right. If we leave things the way they are, where did not use appropriate words, he does what he just we keep hearing people mentioning that the party they did. I thank him and encourage him to keep coming to are affiliated to, which they love have failed, then that Parliament, to address us and he also listens to us as we is a problem. I am wondering where those people live? debate. Mr Speaker, he however must be careful of His One year ago, we were all campaigning for elections Honour. Thank you. and we had the freedom to express ourselves. After elections, they claimed that they were cheated and they HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… lodged cases at the High Court. Right now they are in MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Your Excellency, please debts, so we are saying, deal with these issues because resume your floor. you cannot take over government through court cases but through voting. We are very happy as the ruling DR MASISI: I thought you would make a ruling on party. If Batswana vote us out, it is still fine we will that procedure Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, let me continue rebuild ourselves as much as we can. They are here; with my debate. I was still saying that, I have talked Khama’s offspring was here, he crossed the floor at the to my fellow party members in a relaxed environment. last minute and he won with large numbers; we accepted We expressed our views that, the aim of this Bill is to his victory. Both Lesedi and Mathoothe offspring left strengthen democracy. It was not made for the party Domkrag, they campaigned under a new party and they that I am representing of Domkrag or any political came out victorious against Domkrag but we are not party in this House and outside this House. What we shattered. This thing is not done to destroy Domkrag, Botswana Patriotic Front (BPF), Botswana Congress fear, which keeps perpetuating is this tendency of taking Party (BCP), Alliance for Progressives (AP), Botswana people’s views and decisions that have been made for Movement for Democracy (BMD), Botswana National granted whereas people were on the streets and a lot of Front (BNF) or Umbrella for Democratic Change funds spent on campaigns, and then just because one is (UDC). Another important thing is that, we used heartbroken, angry, claims not to be loved or is being strategies which Batswana were able to understand. So suspected, they cross the floor. No! I opened my heart to you must take heed of this, where after elections... my fellow members and said… even my party members can attest. I told them that those who want to cross are HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. free to do that before this law is implemented. I am DR MASISI: I am about to conclude because I do not also referring to those who are planning to go that, they want to use all my time debating. We must consider this should decide so that we can start building ourselves tendency where people come together after elections properly… and connive as they are promised rewards if they do HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… certain things, this is very dangerous. I do not want to

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talk about other parties but I feel sorry for them because share ideas. bad things usually happen to them because of their bad tendencies. They successfully came up with their DR TSHABANG: Point of clarification. Thank you manifestos and party colours but they are not united, Mr Speaker, thank you Your Excellency. The thing is, they cannot tell us who they are because they are made consultation was carried out 22 years back, did you up of different parties. So Batswana are not happy about not think it was prudent to have a fresh mandate of this and do not trust them. That is why they always consultation or referendum? Thank you. condemn all the good initiatives that we come up with. DR MASISI: Thank you. You must pay attention when So what they are saying is not true. This law is straight reading the Constitution, it does not compel us to hold a forward, it states that if any Honourable Member wants referendum concerning that issue. That is the first point. to cross the floor, they have to consult people since they are the ones who voted for them, so that they can vote Secondly, you must pay attention to the manifestos of members of their choice to Parliament. We do not want different parties, the party that I am leading... a situation where... HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ours too. MR HIKUAMA: Point of clarification. Thank you DR MASISI: Maybe yours too, I am not sure because your Excellency for giving me the opportunity. I have you keep changing… a small question that I would like you to clarify, you mentioned in the State of the Nation Address (SONA) HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Laughter!)... that the constitution will be reviewed next year and the Minister also confirmed it. That would be the DR MASISI: My party consulted all Batswana perfect time to include everything that is not good on concerning this issue, including some members of the constitution. We are left with three months before opposition who voted us. They told us that, it is what getting into the New Year so, why are we now rushing they are looking for... to review the Constitution? HONOURABLE MEMBER: When? DR MASISI: I will briefly respond to it Mr Speaker. DR MASISI: Before going for elections. Where When we review the Constitution, especially sections were you? This is what we promised to do during our which are the pillars of the constitution, there has to be campaigns, those who agree or disagree with us… stability especially amongst the leaders. I am referring to leaders of this House not those from the ruling party MR MMOLOTSI: Point of clarification. Perhaps alone; all of you are leaders... you should clarify the point where you said you are HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Murmurs)... amending things for the benefit of the nation because you feel sorry for them. Mr president, you know that it is DR MASISI: Since we are leaders, I want you to possible for a party to expel a member, so why did you understand the depth of what I am talking about not consider the feelings of those who voted them when Honourable Members. We cannot disregard you if we drafting this law? were the only leadership in power. You have been voted Honourable Members as per your various positions, so it DR MASISI: We also considered the feelings of voters is your legal right to be here to perform your assignments. sir. When drafting this Bill, we had a section which All we need is to have stability before going for the stated that by-elections should be held if a member is Constitutional review. If we leave things this way, as expelled from a party but we removed it. If any party I heard some saying that there are some members who expels a Member of this House they are not compelled are planning to leave, then at least consider a Motswana to go for by elections because our fear is that parties who is at Etsha 6 or Gumare who is confused because they do not understand what is happening. That is the may revolt against their members. You know this better issue Minister. So, we are concluding this issue so that than others, so... we can have stability; voters must know that they are the HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Clarification. ones who are in control. They are actually our leaders and not the other way round. That is a major point. At DR MASISI: No, allow me to conclude. I request this the end of the day, we simply come here to debate and House...

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HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. maybe before you begin to cogitate on the matter, the Learned Parliamentary Counsel needs to come back DR MASISI: Can you kindly stop seeking for again shortly about that other point. clarifications because I want to conclude. You must pay attention so that you can understand. I want this House LEARNED PARLIAMENTARY COUNSEL (MS and Batswana to understand that this Bill was brought MOKGOSI): Thank you Mr Speaker. Thank you before Parliament a long time ago, different Parliaments Honourable Members. Let me also thank Honourable came, so at some point it had to be implemented. As a Kgafela for his intervention. Mr Speaker, when we leader of a political party and as the President of the adjourned as promised, I went back and reflected. Let republic, I have vowed to support this Bill and to sign it. me state that if one is standing where I am, you cannot I do not want to make decision for anyone. I Mokgweetsi see properly especially if you have eye problem like I Masisi, has vowed to sign this law if you approve it. I do do. not want to turn back because our trusted Magosi, who Let me admit that when I was reading, I said it was are prepared to offer advice on this law unanimously Section 60, I read that amendment of 68 and read 89 supported it; All our Magosi are Batswana. So Batswana instead which talks about the voting process. The part have allowed us to do that. The reason why we are the where I said is 68, is not 68, it is 66. I went back and majority is because they rejected you. You took the matter to court and still lost. read it. Section 68 amendment Mr Speaker, it is true, Honourable Kgafela is telling the truth, it is voted under MR BOKO: On a point of order. Thank you Mr Speaker. Section 74 (1) of the Constitution, of general provisions Mr Speaker, I do not know if this is a point of order or relating to procedure in Assembly. It reads thus, “Say what but I am trying to fashion it along the order lines. as otherwise provided in this Constitution, any question I think His Excellency the President does not want to proposed for decision in the National Assembly shall be tell Batswana the truth. He cannot say all Batswana determined by a majority of the votes of the Members agree when Members of Parliament are the ones who present and voting.” That is how it is Mr Speaker, it is are going to decide whether they approve this Bill or voted by the simple majority as opposed to two thirds. not. Mr Speaker, the truth is, Batswana were never Furthermore, Specially Elected Members also vote, they thoroughly consulted and that is the outcry out there. have a right to vote. I thank you Mr Speaker, and thank If he now says it is okay for 57 Members to pass this you Honourable Kgafela. Bill, because Specially Elected Members are not participating, whereas Batswana were never consulted MR SPEAKER: Honourable Motsamai, please resume in this matter, then if it is order and clarification at the your floor. same time, he should address it. Thank you. MR MOTSAMAI (GHANZI SOUTH): Thank you MR SPEAKER: There is actually no point of order. Mr Speaker and thank you for the opportunity you gave Your Excellency, please resume your floor, and explain me Honourable. Let me also greet His Excellency the to your colleague. Please switch off your microphone President of Botswana and thank him for visiting us. Honourable Member for Phikwe East. Mr Speaker, let me start by saying, during the course of HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. my debate, you might say I am confused so let me clear that off from the beginning. Mr Speaker, there is no one DR MASISI: I want to vehemently say, Batswana who can agree with floor crossing Bill. The problem I have welcomed this Bill including those who recently have Mr Speaker is that, this issue is brought urgently crossed the floor after campaigning for this party’s mandate, they crossed while supporting it. Thank you. which raises suspicions. I support it. Mr Speaker, the issue that was raised that, every HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. Government has to ensure that, it does not lose therefore this Bill is being made to ensure the stability of the MR SPEAKER: His Excellency the President has Government is not true. The truth is that Batswana that just finished. You cannot clarify anything. Honourable side who are members of Botswana Democratic Party Member for Ghanzi South! Honourable Member, love Botswana, they cannot just cross without any

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compelling reason. If they are suspected as they are now, MR MOTSAMAI: What kind of pot will it be? Put the that they want to cross, then a law is made to prohibit pot down and serve it so that everybody can be served. them from crossing which is not good Mr Speaker. Serve properly Mr President.

Mr Speaker, my point is, the opposition argues that I conclude this way Mr Speaker, the issue that the people should be given their democratic right. I am one Constitution should be reviewed is not important, and I of the Members of Parliament, who does not believe that do not support this issue of floor crossing. It is my right an individual’s right should overshadow the rights of the that when I have differences with people this side, my majority. Therefore, if you listen to me carefully, you colleagues, I should voice my concerns freely because I will realise that, I agree with; part of what the Members am in a democracy. Whoever may want it should come of the Botswana Democratic Party are saying. this side.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)…

MR MOTSAMAI: I do not agree with the urgent tabling MR MOTSAMAI: That is how it is. Mr Speaker, the of this Bill. If it was tabled on time, I was going to agree issues that we should be concerned about are issues of with the Botswana Democratic Party wholeheartedly the frequent killings, those are the laws we should have that this Bill is fine, it should be implemented. urgently came here for, because we see that people are dying. Right now if we implement a law that someone HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. should not go…

MR MOTSAMAI: The problem is, this Bill has to be HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Inaudible)… implemented in January. We are in December, why is there such a hurry? What is the problem? MR MOTSAMAI: No, that one of killings is relevant and we should have started with it Mr President. Just HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. look at the rate the nation is dying. We should have MR MOTSAMAI: wait, I am still debating, I will started with the issue of killings, this one of floor consider your request later Kgosi, is that you? Mr crossing, no... Speaker, I think reviewing the Constitution of Botswana HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification is important President, we could be spending the whole Honourable Motsamai. night here, of which that could be our priority to stay out all night if need be to ensure that we review it as you MR MOTSAMAI: This issue also indicate that you are promised. You have shocked me because I see you have going to delay things because you think that since you sent the Vice President, he is also active to ensure that have given them a piece, they are okay. That means that this Bill’s debate is increased by two hours so we spend you are not going to implement the Constitution at the the whole night discussing it. right time...

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… MR MOTSAMAI: That is your intention. Your MR MOTSAMAI: Wait first, I am still on this side. If he intention is that… could be this active to develop the Boteti constituency, it could benefit people of Boteti. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… MR SPEAKER: Order Honourable Members! Order please! He appears not to want to yield. MR MOTSAMAI: Mr Speaker, the main objective HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification is to amend, the Constitution of Botswana should not Honourable Motsamai. be reviewed on a piecemeal approach. Even when you are cooking, you cannot offer a piece of meat to your MR MOTSAMAI: If now your situation is okay…I younger brother, then later to your elder brother, what told you to wait first can you not hear me, wait I will kind of etiquette is that? yield for you. I am speaking Sekgalagadi Mr Speaker, because he seems not to hear me when I am speaking HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… Setswana.

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HONOURABLE MEMBER: You are taking too long. the Speaker is running things. Earlier on Honourable Majaga started by talking about politics and not MR MOTSAMAI: He is my elder brother when it addressing the issue that was on the table, nothing was comes to Sekgalagadi. Mr Speaker, the other important said about that issue and Honourable Makwinja... issue is that, we have challenges of COVID Mr President, people are starving, they have lost their jobs, they have HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)... lost their accommodation and have been chased away from the houses they were renting. Right now artists MR BOKO: No listen! You never listen. Even the are concerned and they are complaining. Those are the President was out of the topic. Right now Honourable issues we could have responded to first and see that Motsamai is out of the topic a bit, and you are rebuking these are the issues we should be concerned about. him. Mr Speaker, when you are there and I know that…

LEADER OF THE HOUSE (MR TSOGWANE): HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)... Point of procedure. I am using point of procedure MR BOKO: I am asking that you listen because you because of the issues he is talking about. I have realised never listen. Mr Speaker, can you request them to listen that he is not addressing the issue that has been put to me. before this House, he is addressing other issues. Our Standing Orders state that we should address what is MR SPEAKER: Give him a chance Honourable on the table. So you want to talk and address issues Members, give him a chance. haphazardly, talking about COVID and this and that, no the Standing Orders state that you must focus. You HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Inaudible)… should address what has been put before this House. So MR SPEAKER: I will deal with him. stop confusing people by going around in circles, we are talking about the floor crossing Bill, we do not know MR BOKO: Thank you Mr Speaker. Honourable about those issues you are addressing haphazardly. Speaker, when you say you will deal with me that means that you are threatening me. I do not want it to seem like HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… you are threatening me. I was saying Mr Speaker, when MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Let us have order you are there, you should indicate that you are not taking Honourable Members. Indeed his Honour the Vice sides. You should not be intimidated by the presence of President is very much correct. Standing Order 57.1 His Excellency the President or Vice President in this says eyes on the ball. I thought Honourable Member House, no. Honourable Motsamai did nothing wrong, of Parliament for Ghanzi South is just giving an let him continue the way he wants to express himself. example and you appear to be dwelling too much on the HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… matter. Please focus on the subject matter which is the Constitution Amendment Bill. MR BOKO: Yes, he is just saying this issue is not urgent and that is the point we are all raising this side, and we HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order Mr have been saying that all afternoon. We cannot proceed Speaker. in this manner Mr Speaker. You are always arguing that MR SPEAKER: You cannot want a point of order from Deputy Speaker is not doing things properly, sometimes me. even standing up and doing the right thing. Sometimes HONOURABLE MEMBER: No, I am not ordering you stand and say Mr Speaker, he is not doing the right you. thing, and you will be doing the right thing and we agree with you. So today it seems like you cannot do that, and MR SPEAKER: You cannot, you are very much out we cannot proceed in this manner. If you want to run of order. things properly, be aware of the way you should run MR MOTSAMAI: Thank you Mr Speaker. I am your things Mr Speaker. I know that you are someone astonished … who is cautious, who listens, who can run this House and I know that now you will realise your fault and do MR BOKO: On a point of order. Mr Speaker, one of things properly. the things that I have come to Parliament for besides making laws that will help Batswana, is to look at how HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)...

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MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Members, Members of Parliament, right? They advised Parliament may we have order please. Honourable Motsamai, regarding that Bill which was passed at night, and that indeed His Honour the Vice President and Leader of the time they did not listen. Members of Parliament from House was very much correct on this observation and I the opposition told them that we could not make such pleaded with Honourable Motsamai to come back to the a law. Do you not think right now, being here at night, track and indeed he did that without fail. May we have being made to debate this Bill, it is something along the order please Honourable Boko, you cannot be running lines of an exercise which gave rise to the challenges commentary while I am standing; you cannot. None of which have turned Botswana into chaos? Even the the Standing Orders is permitting you to do that and I President apologised here in Parliament. plead with you. HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… MR KEKGONEGILE: Further procedure Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, the issue raised by Honourable MR MOTSAMAI: I can see that is where it is Boko, the Speaker Honourable Skelemani has already gravitating towards, Honourable Member. I am hearing ruled on it when I was raising that procedural matter some Members saying I was not here, but when they when Honourable Rakgare was saying that Honourable read the Bible and say it says, “Jesus said this…” They Keorapetse was at Francistown and other places. He were not there when it was written as well. ruled to say it is within context, because he is just HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… giving examples, whether he spends all his time in that example, it does not matter. It is debate. So the ruling is HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… there, that is the precedence that we must follow. So let Honourable Motsamai continue. MR MOTSAMAI: Let me continue Mr Speaker, and what I am saying is that there are issues that are supposed MR SPEAKER: I cannot even hear what you are to be dealt with and addressed timeously. One of those saying, that is the reason why I am not even listening issues is Gender Based Violence (GBV). Women do not to you. kill us, we are the ones who kill them; that is what I HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)... am saying. The issue concerning creative artists, their hunger; it is what I am referring to. I am not going to MR MOTSAMAI: Mr Speaker, I am surprised that now you see that I am putting pressure on you, and then focus on those issues. I can focus on… you come with manipulation tactics that I should not talk about those issues... HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order.

MR SPEAKER: Who are you putting pressure on? MR MOTSAMAI: I am moving on.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)... HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order. You are not moving on. You are not. MR SPEAKER: When you say you are putting pressure, who are you putting pressure on? HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order. MR MOTSAMAI: Mr Speaker are you debating? I am MR SPEAKER: Point of order, take your seat. speaking to my colleagues. LEADER OF THE HOUSE (MR TSOGWANE): MR SPEAKER: Order Honourable Motsamai, may we have order please. I will chase you out if you want to Point of order. Mr Speaker, as you are adhering very test me, may we have order please and we are going to well to these Standing Orders, you are someone who have order. understands them very well. Once you have told a Member of Parliament that what they are doing is MR MOTSAMAI: I would be surprised if you realised violating such and such a Standing Order, as you have that I was putting pressure on you and you did not prevent me … read it out loud, they cannot go back to that point, and keep buttressing it as if you did not call them to order. MR MMOLOTSI: Elucidation. I thank you Honourable So address Honourable Motsamai in a language that he Motsamai. Honourable Motsamai, you are aware that it is can understand, so that he can comprehend what you on record that the President apologised to the opposition are saying. He cannot repeat the same point that he was

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called to order on. So if he looks down upon you or made a point on the things that are urgent in his view. the procedures of this House, he should just inform us Mr Speaker, you will be impeding on his Constitutional that he is not going to adhere to the procedures of this right under Section 12. He holds an opinion that this House. Bill is not urgent. He holds a further opinion that other things are more urgent. He is free to say those MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Indeed, His Honour the things. You cannot stop him. You will be violating Vice President is very much correct. his Constitutional right. These Standing Orders are HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… even subservient to the Constitution. Mr Speaker, you cannot abuse Honourable Motsamai to say everything MR SPEAKER: Yes! that comes out of his mouth should be about the Bill. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… Members of the BDP (Domkrag) were here talking about other things which are not in this Bill. They were MR SPEAKER: Honourable Boko, I do not know you giving examples, and there is nothing wrong with that. to be the way you are today. However, if you want to see I just wanted to say Honourable Motsamai should be the other side of me, you are not very far from seeing it. allowed to debate this Bill according to the way he see HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… things. There is no way you can stop him from saying what is urgent. That would just be you being a tyrant on MR SPEAKER: Indeed, His Honour the Vice President Honourable Motsamai. is correct. When the Speaker has made a ruling, it is not necessary and it is not allowed for someone to go back MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Members, to the same thing that they were called to order for. I Standing Order 57.1, says nobody is going debate away am pleading with you Honourable Motsamai, the way I from it. Nobody is going to be irrelevant. Honourable know you, please keep your eyes on the subject matter. Motsamai, please hold your floor. The subject on the table is Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2020 (No. 14 of 2020). Please Honourable MR MOTSAMAI: Mr Speaker… Motsamai! MR TSOGWANE: Point of order. Mr Speaker, there MR MOTSAMAI: Thank you Mr Speaker. are two points that you have to explain to Keorapetse…

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Motsamai has not said anything. MR SPEAKER: You cannot make a point of order on what I was saying. You cannot! He has not even said MR SPEAKER: Please sit down Honourable anything, he has just stood up. Keorapetse!

MR MOTSAMAI: I said thank you Mr Speaker. MR KEORAPETSE: No! You must be consistent. Mr Speaker, if this is the case then it means I should continue with my debate… MR SPEAKER: Please sit down Honourable Keorapetse! MR KEORAPETSE: Point of order. Mr Speaker, I just wanted us to look at the procedure; there is no way that MR TSOGWANE: There are two points… if a Member says the Bill that has been tabled is not urgent, and then he explains what his priorities and the MR KEORAPETSE: You must be consistent. party he belongs to are, and then you say he is out of HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order Mr order. That is misinterpretation of the Standing Orders, Speaker. We need consistency. You are not consistent. totally. Just two lines! Just one line! No!

MR SPEAKER: Sorry, just say it again Honourable. I MR TSOGWANE: There are two points… was still conferring with my Clerks. What did you say? MR SPEAKER: Please sit down Honourable MR KEORAPETSE: Mr Speaker, there is no way that Keorapetse! a Member of Parliament is out of order when he is trying to substantiate that the Bill on the table, is not urgent and HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)…

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MR TSOGWANE: There are two points that you need MR TSOGWANE: Mr Speaker… to explain to Honourable Keorapetse, if he can mind to listen. MR SPEAKER: Sorry Vice President (VP).

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Motsamai has not said MR TSOGWANE: I am somebody who likes to anything. differentiate between statements. What Honourable Keorapetse stood on, as a point of order, saying HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… Honourable Motsamai is on track, I am not on that point. I am standing on a point of order to say Honourable MR TSOGWANE: If he can mind to listen… Motsamai cannot challenge your ruling. Your ruling is final. That is the point I want to make. Whether that MR SPEAKER: May we have order please! May we ruling has been made erroneously or people do not have order please! Honourable Boko! May we have accept it, it is final. So there is no one who can stand and order please! challenge it once again saying Honourable Motsamai is HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… on track. So since when is he challenging your ruling? I am not saying Motsamai is relevant or irrelevant, but the HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order. fact is you have made a ruling. Once you have made a ruling, it has to be final. This is what the Members ought MR SPEAKER: Leader of the House is on … to know so that this House can maintain its decorum.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: But consistency! HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order! Consistency! You are not consistent Mr Speaker. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of procedure! HONOURABLE MEMBER: He has not said anything, MR BOKO: Point of order. Mr Speaker, I know that but he is standing up to speak. you sometimes preach the word of God at the United Congregational Church of Southern Africa (UCCSA), HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… you are a churchgoer. One of the gifts God did not anoint you with is the gift to be able to prophesy. You MR SPEAKER: Honourable Members! Honourable would not be able to prophesy what His Honour the Members! Vice President wanted to say with his point of order, the same way you could not prophesy what Honourable HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… Keorapetse was going to say with his point of order. MR TSOGWANE: I can see you. That is why you said no, let me hear what Honourable Motsamai is saying, let him go on so that I hear him. So, HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… you are now allowing Honourable Tsogwane to do the exact same thing that he did, unless you are a prophet, MR SPEAKER: May we have order please! Honourable knowing that you prophesied what he is going to say. Members, His Honour the Vice President has stood on So, when he corrects himself he says that he is not a point of order and I cannot allow anybody to stand up raising the point that Honourable Keorapetse was going again. Let me read again the particular Standing Order to talk about, and that he is going to stick to the point that I am talking about. that he was raising.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… I think we need consistency Mr Speaker. If you want to run this House properly, you have to be consistent. MR SPEAKER: Honourable Keorapetse, may we have Do not say that, no this is Honourable Tsogwane, this is order please! His Honour the Vice President. No, when we are in this HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… House Mr Speaker, you should give us the same respect. This is what I said earlier on, we are equal, age, gender MR SPEAKER: “A Member shall restrict…” I do and anything else, we should be treated equally and not not have to read it in any case, the Standing Order is say that this one is His Honour the Vice President, I can very clear. We are going to confine our deliberations to prophesy what he is going to say. You are not a prophet, Standing Order 57.1 and nobody is going to be irregular. so you cannot know what he is going to say. So, we Honourable Motsamai. need consistency.

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MR SPEAKER: I think you are insinuating me. Let me move on to the issue that you are talking about Mr Speaker. I am the only one who is held hostage in MR BOKO: I am not. this Parliament and I have been asked to confine myself. MR SPEAKER: You are. People have been making haphazard statements, saying whatever they want to say. MR BOKO: No, I am assisting you. Some said that they are being chased out, some saying MR SPEAKER: Please, resume your seat Honourable that they cannot go anywhere. I am the only hostage. Boko. Proceed. Mr Speaker, can I talk about the floor crossing Bill, MR TSHERE: Procedure. Thank you very much about whether it is acceptable for one to defect with the Honourable Speaker. I am not commenting on the seat of the party that they were voted for, if they are issue that you have been talking about. I am concerned mistreated? I am looking at this Bill Mr Speaker, I have about the fact that, you are reminding the Honourable long said no, it is not acceptable to do that. Members to put on their masks but you are not putting on your mask. Thank you. Mr Speaker, let us move on to my argument; people who voted for that person, what are the provisions regarding MR SPEAKER: I apologise for that Honourable what they are saying? Is there a provision that allows Tshere. I just wanted my voice to be heard. voters to give their representative a green light to defect when they notice that they are mistreated? Does the law MR MOTSAMAI (GHANZI SOUTH): I am starting stipulate that or is there anything that addresses this to have a suggestion Mr Speaker, that maybe you Mr point? I am not aware of anything of that sort. Speaker and His Honour the Vice President should give me points that I am supposed to raise because you are Voters should also be given a chance to take a decision to tell people to go when they notice that they are stopping me from debating, you are stopping me from mistreated and not say that someone is just making up airing the points that my constituents have sent me to stories just because people who are abusing them are come and raise; that this Bill is not urgent as well as saying that. which one is urgent. Let me leave it. MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND People of Ghanzi South also pleaded that there is an COMMUNICATIONS (MR SEGOKGO): issue that should be given attention when we talk about Clarification. Thank you Mr Speaker, thank you the Constitution, that some constituencies have been Honourable Member. This Bill is implying that they stretched in such a way that… should vacate the post so that voters can take a decision. They are given the opportunity to tell them that they are MR SPEAKER: Honourable Motsamai, please resume still going to vote for them even when they defect. your seat. No Honourable Members, please stick to the chapter on the table and it is Constitution (Amendment) MR MOTSAMAI: You are saying the same point that I am talking about. We are basically saying the same Bill. There is nothing about constituencies here. It is not thing but in different words. wrong to give an example, but now you are purposely. No, please Honourable Motsamai, please, come to the HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… table. MR MOTSAMAI: Mr Speaker, this issue is straight MR MOTSAMAI: Ah! Mr Speaker, let me proceed. forward, I have indicated in so many ways that this With all due respect, I plead with His Honour the Vice Bill is not relevant at this point in time. It will be President that the energy that he is using to bring me relevant some other time, it does not correspond with down, and to debate the way he is debating, he should those issues. Among other issues which concern this use that energy to develop Boteti… constituency, there is an issue of…

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… MR TSHERE: Elucidation. Thank you very much Honourable Speaker. Just a quick question Honourable MR MOTSAMAI: …because residents of Boteti Motsamai while you are still there, before you conclude. consume salty water as we speak, which is even smelling. Please clarify how this Bill is going to affect the So he should go and implement those developments. President if it is approved?

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MR MOTSAMAI: I hear you Honourable Tshere. The and even after elections. The question is, should we be reason why they want us to pass this Bill under urgency giving this Bill priority now looking at our Electoral is because they do not want us to investigate how it is Act? Is it the main challenge when it comes to our going to affect some people. Lastly, there is a statement electoral system at the moment? The answer is no. Now which says that Magosi were consulted, no Honourable the question is, why are we rushing to make it a priority Members, you went to Magosi and told them about yet it is not the main challenge? this Bill but those Magosi have communities. They have to go back to them and consult them, as much as Mr Speaker, we are from different political parties which Members of Parliament should go back and consult their are an integral part of any democratic Government. constituents. If Magosi said yes at that time, they are the MR LESEDI: Point of procedure. Thank you Mr one who supported it. There should be support from the Speaker. When we came in, I heard a request on time community on what their Magosi said. Magosi cannot extension by 2 hours, now where is the 30 minutes make decisions on behalf of communities, as much as coming from Mr Speaker? Thank you. the President is saying that we cannot make decisions on behalf of voters by defecting with positions. MR SPEAKER: What was the time when we started? Sort that out. Please continue Honourable Member I am also saying that I cannot make decisions on behalf holding the floor, we will come back to you. of voters by defecting with the seat, I have to consult them. This means that consultation is not yet over at Ntlo MR KEKGONEGILE: A political party in democracy ya Dikgosi. So let us not rush them, and then come here plays a pivotal role. Given its pivotal role, a political and boast that we have consulted them and they have party should therefore be united, have leadership which agreed. They did not have time because they were not believes in consultation and cooperation. The leadership given enough time to go and consult their communities should have a vision about the party and if it is the and hear their opinions or suggestions regarding this ruling party, it should have a clear direction of where Bill. it is taking the country with the element of democracy To the President who I respect Mr Speaker, calm down, in it. It is very important that if there is a conflict within do not stop Botswana Democratic Party (BDP) members a political party, there should be conflict resolution from making the right decisions. They cannot handle the mechanism, a constructive one. We are here amending fire that is burning there. That is why at Central they the Constitution but we are amending it for a political are defecting before the implementation of this Bill. party which does not have leadership, its constructive Although it is said that I am off topic, they are running conflict resolution mechanism is not strong, there are because of this law. This law is going to escalate your in-fights. That is something that should not affect our personal budget because every time when a politician resigns, bye-elections will be held. This law must be knock off time. assessed carefully and without rushing. Mr Speaker, there are many reasons why there is floor This law has put the creative artists in a corner because crossing. The first reason is, when the political party is right now we are unable to go and listen to them because no longer observing its vision which made one to join we are here debating this Bill… it, that individual has a right Mr Speaker to leave as the MR SPEAKER: Your time is up. ones that he or she will be with, look lost. It is said that when Paul Rantao was asked how he got there, he would MR MOTSAMAI: …but we should have gone to them. say, “hey, I might have been weak. When you are weak, MR SPEAKER: Your time is up. Please wait, I know every house looks accommodating but I am no longer who I have identified to be holding the floor. It is about weak and I have realised this is not where I want to be.” five of you standing and the remaining time can only allow three speakers only. So, whoever is taking the His Excellency earlier said, whoever wants to go is free floor must focus on the subject on the table. to do so, we are just fine. The question is, if they are fine, why are they making this law? MR KEKGONEGILE (MAUN EAST): Thank you Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, we are debating the Floor Honourable Majaga earlier gave examples of four Crossing Bill. A politician can cross from one party to members; Moswaane, Reatile, Majaga and Kablay but others before elections, be it from Parliament or Council they are numerous that side that if…

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MR MAJAGA: Point of order. Thank you Mr Speaker will tell you that the leader favours people from his and thank you Honourable Member of Parliament (MP). region. If I have the capacity, just because I am not from No, my talking about Kablay who is sitting next to me that leader’s region, he will disregard me and therefore and the one who left… it is better I leave and go where I am appreciated. Trying to hold back people through law making yet you are not MR SPEAKER: Honourable Kablay. trustworthy is not in the interest of the country.

MR MAJAGA: …Honourable Kablay, Honourable MR SPEAKER: Elucidation Honourable Taolo. Please Reatile and Honourable Moswaane, some of whom switch off your microphone Honourable Kekgonegile. have left, I was saying there are news circulating about positions that we have not asked for, as if we have sinned. MR LUCAS: Elucidation. Honourable Kekgonegile, People should desist from such talks and leave us alone. are you saying that sometimes along the politics journey We have positions; we are Honourable Members. That a leader can turn into Herod and abuse party members is what I meant by that example. and sometimes where he just picks on you and abuses you for no reason? Now is this law saying even when a MR KEKGONEGILE: Thank you Honourable. That leader has turned into Herod, you should just stay? Is is what you were saying which I am emphasising that that a good thing? sometimes a leader can just provoke you unnecessarily and force you to leave. Now making this law for an MR KEKGONEGILE: That is very wrong. We Honourable Member who is ready to leave is not should consider the rights of voters but you should also democratic. Constitution or law must not be made out consider if you are not abusing the rights of Honourable of anger… Members. If you are abusing them, do you expect them to stay in that party so you can continue to abuse them? HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. This is an abusive law. There are those who got positions MR KEKGONEGILE: …a law is made… later than others, they used to bother us a lot asking us about our plans for 2024. After that, they are now at the HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. forefront like ‘Nanga’ on “the man of the people.’

MR KEKGONEGILE: …to ensure proper HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… administration. MR KEKGONEGILE: Mr Speaker, a member may MR SPEAKER: Clarification sought. cross the floor because of internal conflicts and faction MR KEKGONEGILE: Secondly… I can see them and fighting within a party. A situation where they have I know what they want to say. Wait I am going to hit you complete instability which that member is unable to hard, you will respond later. cope with, where this member is hated because they do not agree with a certain faction, especially with the The second reason why an Honourable Member or politician wants to leave is, like Honourable Moswaane leadership. So they expect members to continue to stay said, “the corruption here is too much and it is a burden in that party where they are abused and encouraged to to me. There are so many things taking place in this party join those conflicts even though they are not interested which I cannot bear and therefore I cannot stay. The in them. This alone is not how democracy operates and corruption is so constant as if one is taking medicine.” it is not wise for a person to continue staying under Mr Speaker, the fact that someone is leaving is not those circumstances. reason enough to make a law because the problem does We must understand that the electoral system, the First- not lie with the one leaving, it is because the things that Past-The-Post, constituency based electoral system is you are doing as you lead are wrong and what you are the one which is causing this floor crossing. That is the doing in a party while running Government is wrong. main focus of floor crossing. So if we are to amend the That is the second reason why there is floor crossing. Constitution and electoral system, then we will not have There is one party in a certain country where one was room for floor crossing because people voted a party not recalled from a party he was about to become a member an individual. The question therefore is, where will you and given a position. These things can force Honourable be crossing to when the party is not crossing? The main Members to leave. When you ask one why they left, he intention of this Bill is to deal with the root cause not

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the affected. All we need is a wholesome Constitutional bring them back to Parliament. They are not allowed to review, so if you consider the history of floor crossing directly join another party and come to Parliament by in our country, you will realise that Domkrag has been moving from this seat to that seat, like we do here. benefiting from it all this time. They use Government resources to benefit from floor crossing. Right now, the Another issue is that, a member at home might wonder thinking within the current political crop… why it looks like some members of Domkrag are eagerly waiting for this law while others are reluctant. The truth HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. of the matter is, some of them are our friends so, they were promised to benefit from it; positions like being MR KEORAPETSE: On a point of elucidation an Assistant Minister, a Speaker and a Deputy Speaker Mr Speaker. What is your take concerning the issue since reshuffling was still on the way. Others are not where the current President is supporting the idea that competing because they were just there to participate Members of Parliament and Councillors should go for during the elections. Some of these members went to by-elections while he himself cannot go for by-election, the cattle-post after elections but were called back since we do not have a provision where we vote for a because they won. They were not aware that it is a President? Secondly, how do you feel about a situation strategy and these are members who won because their whereby if a President abuses the Constitution or any party strategised. So this kind of a member will always law, we do not have any impeachment clause? This is protect their party at all costs. They are not concerned to say, a situation where he has absolute power which about democracy or the interest of the nation, but the gives him the right to dissolve Parliament which was party. voted by the people who he claims he is representing. At any time for any reason he has the power to dissolve Mr Speaker… Parliament even though we do not have a provision where we vote for a President. How do you feel about ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL this issue Honourable? AFFAIRS, GOVERNANCE AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION (MR MTHIMKHULU): MR KEKGONEGILE: Thank you Mr Speaker. Thank On a point of clarification Mr Speaker. Honourable you Honourable Member. That is the issue. The truth Kekgonegile, do you think this floor crossing is, the direct election of the President is the main focus. amendment will be approved in Parliament? Will it That is what Batswana are looking for not floor crossing, be able to help members of Umbrella for Democratic because if Batswana do not want a certain member, they Change (UDC) to be more united than they are today? I will show them that they are actually interested in a am saying this because UDC President is not here today party not them. Likewise, they will vote for them if they and it seems like some members want to remove him want them after only four or five years because that is from presidency. Moreover, some members intend to when we have our general elections. So we are targeting run back to Botswana Congress Party (BCP) with many the wrong thing Honourable Segokgo. seats and leave Botswana National Front (BNF) with three seats. So do you not think it is possible for this law MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND to unite you? COMMUNICATIONS (MR SEGOKGO): Clarification. Thank you Mr Speaker. Thank you MR KEKGONEGILE: Thank you Mr Speaker. Last Honourable Member. You mentioned that we will time after the State of the Nation Address (SONA), after Honourable Mthimkhulu responded, residents of not have floor crossing if we have Proportional Gaborone South were happy that he responded and they Representation (PR), if at all I heard you well. South mentioned that their only challenge is Mr Khama and Africa uses Proportional Representation so, do they UDC. They were happy that finally, developments will have a provision of a floor crossing window? reach their constituency. You can do much better than MR KEKGONEGILE: Thank you. There is no floor that Honourable Member. crossing in South Africa at Parliamentary level but at HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… council level. What happens at Parliamentary level is that, the party has the right to remove anyone who MR KEKGONEGILE: Mr Speaker, we are not resign and joins another party from Parliament, because addressing the root cause. Our main challenge is that, he or she is no longer a member. That party can also we do not have political party funding in Botswana.

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We solely depend on the Chinese and other people for to force Members of Parliament not to go anywhere? funding and they have had enough, the economy is not Why did you inform people that you are going to review growing because we depend on the funds that we could the whole Constitution and not mention the movement be using for developments even before we receive it. in dribs and drabs?

In my constituency, we have a Councillor who is not Mr Speaker, this Bill will not take us anywhere as a a member of our party. This member has never visited country; this kind of thinking which the leadership of the constituency, never held a Kgotla meeting nor met this country wants to rule people with iron fist including Village Development Committee (VDC) ever since they even Members of Parliament. If a Member of Parliament is forced to say, “yes” if not, his seat is taken away from won elections. Whenever I hold meetings there, they ask them, what about a person on the street? What about me, “Honourable, we want to query about this member Motswana who is relying on the Government to give who behaves like they are not our leader because them developments? That person is in a vacuum. This they never assist nor visit us, what is the procedure?” Bill cannot take us anywhere Mr Speaker, I do not Batswana want to recall a leader who is not serving them support it. accordingly. They want us to count ballots at the polling stations, they do not want a situation whereby others LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION (MR run away with ballot boxes like some people who were SALESHANDO): Procedure. Mr Speaker, a gentle reminder that you said after the speaker finishes his not assisting during elections did in our neighbouring debate you will tell us if we extended by two hours or constituency. They want us to count ballots at the polling two and half because if it is two hours we could have stations so that results can be given as soon as possible. adjourned at 6:00 p.m that would have meant we could First-Past-The-Post has marginalised and isolated many have adjourned at 8:00 p.m. people and many sectors who could be leaders here. If MR SPEAKER: Coming to that leader. Thank you we adopt the first pass the post system, we will not have very much. Order! Order! Our normal finishing time is enough representation of women and people living with 6:00 p.m. which is 1800 hours. Then there was a Motion disability in Parliament. We cannot continue to request moved to the effect that we should increase by extra through Honourable Morwaeng’s ministry…where have two and half hours. From 6:00 p.m. plus two and half, it you ever seen another arm of Government requesting makes 8:30 p.m. So, exactly 8:30 p.m. we would close from another one, no matter the decisions? Batswana and vote. It means he is the last man who is going to want Parliament to be independent... contribute and that is Honourable Sam Justice Brooks.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. LEADER OF THE HOUSE (MR TSOGWANE): Procedure. Honourable Members, I am surprised that HONOURABLE MEMBER: Bear in mind that we are they are also dragging you into confusion, Leader of the friends. Clarification. Opposition is asking you a question. We were voting MR KEKGONEGILE: …(Laughter!)…Batswana for the Motion to increase. I do not know if they voted want direct election of the President. I do not concur without knowing what they were voting for. If the with this Bill because it is based on own selfish reasons, Leader of the Opposition voted a no, without knowing it is not logical. It was fashioned in the sense that if you what he was voting for then it is shocking. take away the right of the Member of Parliament, you MR SPEAKER: Thank you Your Honour, but I did will be able to control him. It kills independent thinking remind them there was a Motion that was brought to the of Parliamentarians. I do not agree with it. This Bill floor which was agreed to. has the Botswana Democratic Party selfish tendencies; it is not genuine. This Bill is not the main answer to MR KEORAPETSE: Procedure. I stand on a point of our problems in terms of this country’s electoral procedure on two issues. The first issue Mr Speaker is system. It is a minor issue. We have big issues which that it should not seem like we were not paying attention. we could be addressing. Mr Speaker, this Motion is not If you were to check the Hansard, you will realise that working to our advantage because we are reviewing the the Speaker who was on that chair, on different times, he Constitution in dribs and drabs. Why can we not review said two hours and later said two hours 30 minutes. I am all the way? In your manifesto, why did you not write sure of what I am saying, go and check the Hansard. So, that before the review of the Constitution you are going it is not that we were not paying attention.

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Secondly, you said at 8:30 p.m we will close and MR BROOKS: That is why during campaigns, one of vote, the truth is we will not be voting but we will be the things they told me was that, they are tired of voting adjourning, I believe so. for people who cross the floor with their votes, who after we vote for them to advocate for us, they serve their MR SPEAKER: We will be voting sir. Sit down, let me own interests. If I understood them well, they meant remind you Member of Parliament. that they voted for me based on what I was wearing HONOURABLE MEMBER: No. and ensured back then that I will only leave the day the Constitution we adopted will be dissolving Parliament. MR SPEAKER: If you say no, you are refuting. The Therefore, I want to strongly support this amendment main issue is to agree Honourable Members. Let me without hesitation. Mr Speaker… speak in Setswana. If you knew Ikalanga, I could be using it. The main issue is that we agree that we close MR SALESHANDO: Point of clarification. It is just the chapter on the table tonight. That is the reason why a simple explanation, are you saying the people of we increased by two hours and half hours. I remember Kgalagadi South have told you they are tired of people His Honour the Vice President saying there are a lot of they vote for, who cross floors with their votes and their Bills tomorrow and… party ticket? Tell us why the people of Kgalagadi said that, and who had crossed the floor, to confirm that you HONOURABLE MEMBER: Correction sir. are telling the truth that, when people of Kgalagadi say they are tired, they are referring to themselves in MR SPEAKER: I am still standing Honourable, Kgalagadi; which Councilors or Members of Parliament please respect me. Honourable Members, we made a crossed the floor? decision… MR BROOKS: What we are saying as I am speaking HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… in this Parliament Mr Speaker, I am listened by a MR SPEAKER: …the House and that is why there was Motswana all over the country, who believe that their voting. vote means that they want to build...

…Silence… HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Murmurs)...

MR SPEAKER: I was conferring with my very able MR SPEAKER: May we have order please! and committed staff. They are my trusted advisors HONOURABLE MEMBER: ...(Inaudible)... because those like Keorapetse can kill me. I am joking my child. MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Brooks, can we have order please. We increased time as an attempt to increase speakers. So far 32 people have debated. It means the debate HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Murmurs)... shall continue up to tomorrow, until that time when the majority have debated. Once more Honourable MR SPEAKER: Honourable Brooks, you have been Members, I pray for your cooperation, coordination and asked a straight-forward question Honourable Member. coherence, more especially you, you are shocking me Just answer him so that we do not bring up other issues. tonight. Thank you Honourable Lefoko Keorapetse. I have protected you, you are basking under the glory of my protection, do not worry. Provide him with the truth. MR BROOKS (KGALAGADI SOUTH): Thank you Mr Speaker for giving me the opportunity to comment MR BROOKS: Mr Speaker, they are saying that on the Bill tabled before us to amend the Constitution. because every Motswana is allowed to vote wherever Mr Speaker, I believe I came into this House through the they want. So, I want to clearly advocate for Batswana as Constitution which I have to scrutinise today. I believe a Member of Parliament for Kgalagadi South. I support the Constitution I am supposed to amend is the one this Bill, which will affect someone at Okavango Mr I was using to campaign, house to house armed with Speaker... weapons Mr Speaker, speaking to Batswana. MR KEORAPETSE: Point of procedure. No, remind MR SPEAKER: Honourable Keorapetse, Standing Honourable Brooks that he should not mislead people. Order 14.1; I allocated you a seat. He is saying every Motswana is allowed to vote

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wherever they want. That is not the case, he should go and read the Electoral Act, and talk about Kgalagadi. You should also not implicate the people of Kgalagadi, they did not send you here to say that.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Murmurs)...

MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Resume your seat Honorable Member, may we have order please. Thank you Honourable Members.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: ...(Inaudible)...

MR SPEAKER: I am going to control them Your Excellency. This is the time that we agreed on Honourable Members that, we will adjourn. With that said, I shall be asking His Honour the Vice President in his position as the Leader of this Honourable House, to move a Motion of adjournment.

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

LEADER OF THE HOUSE (MR TSOGWANE): Thank you Mr Speaker, I move that this House do now adjourn. Thank you Mr Speaker.

MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Maybe before I release you, since you have adjourned late, we have some refreshments for you.

Question put and agreed to.

The Assembly accordingly adjourned at 20:36 p.m. until Thursday 10th December, 2020 at 11:00 a.m.

Hansard No 200 52 HANSARD RECORDERS Mr. T. Gaodumelwe, Mr T. Monakwe, Ms T. Kebonang HANSARD REPORTERS Mr M. Buti, Ms Z. Molemi, Mr J. Samunzala, Ms N. Selebogo, Ms A. Ramadi, Ms D. Thibedi, Ms G. Baotsi, Ms N. Mokoka

HANSARD EDITORS Ms K. Nyanga, Ms C. Chonga, Mr K. Goeme, Ms G. Phatedi, Ms B. Malokwane, Mr A. Mokopakgosi, Ms O. Nkatswe, Ms G. Lekopanye, Ms T. Mokhure, Ms B. Ratshipa, Ms M. Madubeko

HANSARD TRANSLATORS Ms B. Ntisetsang, Ms M. Sekao, Ms B. Mosinyi, Ms V. Nkwane, Ms N. Kerobale, Ms K. Motswakhumo, Ms T. Motsau, Ms O. Phesodi, Mr K. Setswe

LAYOUT DESIGNERS Mr B. B. Khumanego, Mr D. T. Batshegi, Mr K. Rebaisakae

53 Hansard No 200