Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

THURSDAY, 8 AUGUST 1889

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

1034 Motion fur AdJournment. [ASSEMBLY.] .LWotion for AdJournment.

saying that I am, as a member of this House, the property of the colony, not because I am the member for Cam booya, bnt because I devote as much attention to any other electorate in the colony, am! am as willing to investigate and consider all their affairs as I am to consider those of the electorate I represent. I do not think I have shown any narrowness in that way in this Hoube, whatever other failings I n,ay httve. If I have been a party to a trans~ction of the kind urged n,gainst me by Mr. Justice Harding·, it is the duty of this House to expel me. If, on inw~tigating the matter, they find that I have been a party to it, I am not fit to be here. I wish to put myself right with hon. members of this House, and will do so as briefly as possible. I do not often afll.ict hon. members with a long speech, and I am not going to do so upon this occasion. The leader of the Opposition asked me not to take up much time, as he has some business on the paper, and I wish to accommodate him. I take it that hon. gentle­ men have read the letter which appeared in the paper, heailed "Simonsen's Soft Spec.; the Spider and thB Fly." I wrote this letter to the editor of the Colwie1· :- "7th August, 1889. "The Editor of the Brisbane Courier Newspaper, "Brisbane. "DEAlt Sn:., "l\1yattcntion has been called to this afternoon's

Telerwa1 h, \vhich contains a report headed 'Simon~en's Soft Spec.' and 'The Spider and the J!lly,' con mining particulars of ~Ir. Fredtwick 1\. Simonsen applying for his certificate of diseharge under the Insolveney Act, before his Honour l\:Ir. Justice Harding. As the. integrity of Perkins and Compan.rj Limited, is attacked in the affidavits and remarks made, I desire to say a few \Yards in rebuttal oi the statements. "1'he insolvent's affidavit is altogether false and at variance wHh the trutlJ. as re;.;ards the transaction exist­ ing bet\Yeen Perkins and Company, Limited, and himself It is perfectly true that l\Ir. Edvmrd 1\anmberg was general manager for tbe company at the time the transaction was carriecl. through, but instead of the business being undertaken on behalf of the C•,mpany, it was carried through for the private benefit of :.\Ir. Naumbcrg personally; and it. ·was never connected with Perl\insnndCompany. I.Jimited. norwa::; it ever laid before the directors. It was n husineo;;s carried through by :Thir. Naurnbcrg entirely on his own account and for his o\vn benefH, and was simllar to others he made during the time he \Vas general manager for this company. \-Ye hart. neither immediate nor pl'08pective profit to gain from the transaction, nor ·were we consulted. ·when I was told about the matter by :\Ir. Xaumberg, I \varned him that it v;as an unsafe tmnsaction for him, and I also spoke in the same tn·ms to l\Ir. Rimonsen on the first occasion I met him aftenvards.

H If, as is -.:et forth in the newspaper report, :J.Ir. Nanmbergrefnsed to give ::ur. Simonsen any more credit it was a matter between themselYe ,, and harl no reference or connection whatever \vith t,he company. I, however, regret to say that 1\lr. Xanmbcrg- at a later stage gave the insolvent too much credit on behalf of the company during my absenctl, and \Yhich I strongly LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY. objected to on my returning and dbcussing the nature Thunday, 8 August, 1889, of the accounts. Motion for Adjonrnment-:J.Ir. Justice IIardiug and Per.. "I cannot sufficiently express my surprise at the follmving remarks reported as falling from .:\Jr. Justice kins and Company, IJimitod.~l'ctitions-proposed IIarding :~'The modern definition of a brewer wns a (~ueensland university-Union rrrustec Company man who made beer, bought corner allotments, btlilt of Austrahik Limited, Bill.-'Thc Fitzroy l'~lection.­ hotels upon them. put in reclclcss men, and then came ~Iessage from the LegL~latiYe Oouncil-Brisbane out with all the profits ;' and I de::-ire to inform His Honour that most of the brewers and pnblicws I am Temperance Hall Bill.-Corrcction.-Formul ::notion. acquainted \Vith are a.s ref.-pectable as 31r. Jnstice -·Defamation IHll-COlmnittee.-1Vestern Austra­ I-Iarding, and quite as capable and 1villing (if not more lian Constitution-addref<"i to the queen. so) to dispense justice to all comcrs a" His Honour before whom this aiJplication was tried. It may be The SPEAKER took the chair at half-past possible that I do not snfliciently grasp the meaning 3 u'clock. which fell from his lips. Perhaps they refer to a class \Yith ·which he is 1vell acquainted. If my memory ::YIOTION :FOR ADJOUHN:MENT. does not fail me, I believe I assisted to place :I'!Ir. J\fR. Jt:STICB HARJliXG AND PEHKISS AXD Justice Harding in his present position, believing that 00::\IPANY, LIMITED. those \Vitb whom I \Vas associated at the time were appointing a gentleman who would be a credit to The HoN. P. PJ<~RKINS sairl: 1Ir. Speaker,-­ the colony; and 1 now regret the great mistake that I rise to move the ac!jourmnent of the House. appears to have been made. 'l'he cht.~\3 of people His I mu~t preface the remarks I have to make by Honour is reported to have referred to assist to pay his Motion for Adjournment. [8 AuGusT.] Motion for AdJournment. 1035 salary, and I would like to know if l1e could find ~uch a kind it rests with the House itself to say remunerative position in any other pm·t of the British whether the language used ought tu be used. nation, or its colonies. My own opinion is, that it is un.clesirable that "If :\fr. Nnumbcrg made a mistake in his tr:msaction lanO'uagP so strong should be used In referenc_c to with l\'I:r. Simonsen, it wa~ on his own account entirely, and it is manifestly unfair that the compftny shonld be a g~ntleman h<,lding that position; ""ne! I thmk, saddled with it. Messrs. Simonson and Xaumhcrg ought though tu a certain extent such matters should to wash theit own dirty clothes without attempting to be left to the good sense of hon. members, the drag the firm of Perkins and Company, Lirnitetl, into House itself, if it is of opinion that the langua:;·e it. Fortunately the company can st·md the uncompli­ used is stronger than ought to l>e used, sho';lld mentary remarks made bv His IIononr l\Ir. Justice express its opinion against /::inch language bmng Harding. and I can only¥ assume that the learned gentleman has no experience whatever in commercial used in this House. affairs, or he would never have uttered the words attri­ The HoN. P. PERKIJ'\S eaid: Jli1r. Speaker,­ buted to him. In deference to the Colonial Secretary and your­ "Trusting you will insert this in the interests of self, I will not sny anythingn:ore abou~ his honour justice and fair play. the judge. The letter explams all I mtendecl to " I am, dear sir, say, and if the papers h':d publbhed it ver­ ''Yours faithfully, batim I would not have smd a word about the "(Signed) P. PERKIN .-;, matter in the House. I fail to see that judges '' Chairman of Directors, Perkins and Company, should be snrrounclecl with so many privileges. Limited." It is a notorious fact-at any rate, I have hear.cl Now, I sent this letter to the editor of the it in dining rooms and in other place,-that his Cou1·ier, and what did he do? The Conrier pub­ honour has done things fifty _timh _worse th':n lished what you see in thi" morning·s paper. I anything I have alleged agamst him. I will then sent a letter to the '1'1 legraph, and they pub­ COntent 1IlYSelf nOW with moving the adjourn­ lished what you see this evening. I have given ment of the House. the truth, the actual naked facts, in what I The PREMIER said: Mr. Speaker,-I only wrote to the Courier. I do not think I need rise to express my deep regret at what has fallen make any remarks after that letter ; it speaks for from the hon. member for Cambooya. No doubt itself. I would like to know what right JY1r. he naturally smarts under '' feeling that he has Justice Harding has, because he hgs been ap· been improperly spoken of. I am not so com· pointed to the bench, to take liberties with pletely seized of the circumstances as he is, b;1t I people of this colony. I have done something think it is quite likely--in fact, I feel ccrtam­ for the colony. VVhat has he done; has he done that the remarks which fell from J\lr. JustiCe anything at all? He has done something for Harding were brought about simply by the himself perhaps. If all reports are true, his information laid before him. The hem. member character is not so very reputable. for CamllOoya has 'On legislature in the colonies, and certainly not in judges, some rule will be adopted to prevent the the Hou:,e of Commons, would such remarks he recurrence of such a thing. allowed in reference to a judge of the Supreme The HoN. Sm S. W. GRIFFITH s8id: Mr. Court, or any judge, without th"' member making Speaker,--I rise to express my concurrence with those remarks being called to order by the what has fallen from the hon. gentleman at the Speaker. head of the Government. I cannot at the prF sent The SPEAKER said: \Vith reference to the moment turn to the authority, which has been point of order raised by the Chief Secretary, it referred to in this House on more than one occa­ appears to me that the ~erms in which the judge sion, but I know it has beke was the tendency of his remarks at any rate. the criticism d people in a way that they I entirely oppose the statements made 'by the should not, but the papers are afraid to make hon. member for C.tmbooya, and I regret that he any remarks about it. I know one case in should have brought the c tSe forward. I think which a newspaper editor refused to publish a he showed exceedingly bad taste in speaking of letter where an attack was made by a jndge the judges .ts he did. upon a priYate individual, and stated that if he did publish it he would run the chance The Hox. P. PERKI}[S : I only spoke of one of forty years' imprisonment; as lYir. J nstice judge. Harding- had threatened a person with forty ye..crs' imprisonment just before that. But if The HoN. SIR T. MoiL\VRAITH : I we curtail or attempt to curtail the speech of think he wrote that letter to the papers in judges or officers of the court in courts of justice, anger, and without due consideration of the we must also curtail the speech of members in facts. I know something of the facts, and I am this House. Free speech sometimes degenerates astounded that such information was brought into license, and we shonld hold the glass up to before a judge of the Supreme Court. The hon. ourselves and see ourselves as others see us. I member is perfectly right in saying tbat Perkins qnite agree that some restriction should be put and Co. were not in the matter at all; and the upon judges' tongues, as there is no doubt they judge therefore was ani mad verting on an indi­ sometimes exceed fair criticism in their comments vidual that was not Perkins and Co. at all. The from the bench npon individuals who are helpless, judge had no intention of Raying a word against unless they are members of Parliament, to say a Perkins and Co., because they were not in word in their own defence. it, except as victims to an extraordinary ex­ Mr. HODGKINSON said: Mr. Speaker,-I tent ; and the hon. meml.Jer has misappre­ am not going to discuss the que,;tion of the hended the position. I have not seen how criticism of anv particular judge, but un­ his letter appeared in the Telegraph, but I doubtedly facts are cropping up repeatedly heard what was read here, and I have seen what which show some necessity, at any rate, for was published in the CoU?·ier. I think the judges confining themselves within the strict Courie1· did the Hon. Patrick Perkins a gre"t records of the case. It is not my place to pass service when they curt£tiled his letter t0 the any censure on an old member of this HmF,e like dimensions in which it appeared. I think the the hon. member for Cambooya, and, were I so reruarks he has made about Judge Harding disposed, I must not forget that, although this were in thoroughly bad taste, and I do not think matter has nothing whatever to do with me per­ they were called for by any remarks the judge sonally, I am bonnd to confess that, when I read made. the remarks complained of in that letter, I took Mr. GANNOI\; said: Mr. Speaker,-I wish to them as an aspersion, not only upon the character say a word with regard to a remark that fell of Perkins and Company, Limited, but also on from the Colonial Secretary abont the adoption the hon. gentleman who presides over the affairs of of a standing order with regard to what we may the company. \Ve do not so much object to criti­ say in this House about the judges. I think the cisms by a judge, which are called forth by honest time hac; come when we should sprak very indignation at roguery; but what are the _facts strongly with regttrd to certain matters in con­ of the case? Any person who happens to mcm· nection with our Supreme Court judges. There the wrath of a jndge may suffer anything which is no doubt that they hold a high position, 'md that judge's temper or indignation permit& him are honoured in their position ; bnt there are to do or say, and when a judge gives way, even cases in which judges lower themselves by to honest indignation, he forfeits some of the making attacks on people whom they ought to respect attached to the calm dignity of his office. leave alone. I am not speaking about this But how do they act when a member of the pro­ special case, but on behalf of ]JCO]Jle g·enerally. fession is broC~g.ht before the court? I noticed I know several cases in which people have been that in the case of an application calling upon a attacked by judges without the elightest hope of solicitor, who ought to have been struck off the redress. As the law at present stands, if the rolls long ago, to show cause why he should not Courier or the Telegraph in,;erted the letter be struck off the rolls, the couneel, on referring written l.Jy the hon. member for Cambooya, the to him in snch a manner as to identtfy him, chances are that the publisher would be hauled was immerliately suppressed by the judges. The up before the judge, and perhaps not only fined name of the solicitor must not be mentioned; he but also sentenced to a term of imprisonment. is a highpriest of the craft, and rr.ay be a My reason for spee~king is that I hope this House judge himself some day if he gets over this little will during this se·.sion look after the privileges affair. But suppose it had been the Premier of the people, and s0e that in future, judges shall or any member of this House, would he have not have the power they now possess in this been treated with the same conoideration? No ; respe,·t. I am only waiting for the di·CU&hion on his name would have been given at once, and the Supreme Court Amendment Bill, introduced published throughout the colonies. It is tt weak­ by the hon. member for Dnrrurn, when I trust ness of humanity to revel-not from any wicked the matter will be debated by the House anJ the or licentious motive, but simply from a species of judges put in their pr0per position with regard malicious fun-in anything that is to the discredit to their power to c<>rmnent on the action or even of his dearest friend, and there are hun­ character of private persons. dreds and thousands of people who are now Motion fo1' AdJou1'nment. [8 AUGUST.] Motion fo1' Adjou1'nment. 1037

chuckling over this little diatribe, representing The PREMIER: Both the present Govern­ the firm of the member for Cambooya as a ment and the leader of the Oppoc,ition refused commercial horse-leech. I c:m feel for tl1e honest to let that man out when they saw the evidence indignation of the hon. member, though, of in the case. course, I do not commend the way in which he Mr. BARLO\V: They should never have showed it. But I can feel for it, and we must reftwed, as it "'"'a shameful sentence. not forget that angry men are often imprudent, especially when they are actuated bY a strong ThP PRE:\IIER: He will stop in St. Helena sense of their innocence of the charge made as long as I remain in power. against them. Mr. REES R JONES : He only wished to Mr. MACF ARLANE said : Mr. Rpeaker,­ burn his wife. I hope it will not go forth from this House, that The 1'REMIER: That is all. if a judge does wrong he will not be criticised. Mr. SAYERS said: Mr. Speaker,-! wish to Judges, like other persons, are subject to error say a few words on the qm~tion. I think it is a and wrong-doing, and if a judge improperly very hard thing if members of this House are not criticises an individual nr commercial firm, I to make any referenco,s criticising the action of think it ought to be taken notice of in order to any j 11dge. \Vith regard to what has fallen prevent the consequences which may follow. from the hon. member for Burke, I may say But I would ask hon. members whether the that I have had h>endecl to me a letter from the judge, on this particular occasion, did anything Law Association, and the matter to which it. to justify a motion for the adjournment of the refers has reference to frauds practised by a House this afternoon to refer to the matter? ·As solicitor, and that man's name is withheld from I read the report of the affair, the judge made the public up to the prE ;ent time. I know, from no reference at all to Perkins and Co., unless my own personal knowledge, that had any incirlentally. The name of the firm was cer­ civilian done what this solicitor has done, he tainly brought in, but the judge, in dPfining what would be in gaol for it. a brewer is, simply referred to facts which are wPll­ The HoN. Sm S. W. GRIFFITH: The man known to everybody, though his remarks apply, was committed for trial. perhaps, to other place~ more than to Queens­ Mr. SAYERS :. Yes ; but I believe he has got land. But I think the,- apply here to some extent. out of it. Being a legal gentlernan. he has been Brewer.~ do build houses on corner allotments, able to leave a loophole to enable him to escape. put publicans in them, and reap the benefit. This case was broug·ht under the notice of the But the remarks were not applied to the firm of Law As>1tever about the case. and which was isolated from any other house, If he had only read the reports which have and he was sentenced to twenty years' impri"on­ appe,red in the papers he would have seen that ment. I noticed that a similar case occurred in it was not a solicitor who was implicated at all, Victoria about the same time, where a man who hut one of those nondescript animals called " a had finished building a house asked a lad who was legal practitioner." The name was suppressed there to set fire tn it, and offered him £50 to do because the a1•plication before the court was only so. \Vhen the lad refused he set fire to it hill! self, to call upon him to show r·mse. It was and got the insurance mnne.r, and I believe there an ::c prt.rte application by the Law Society, was a man sleeping in the upper story of that calling upon this 1nan to answer certain affi­ house. That man got a sentence of four years' davits, and I sfty that under the circumstances imprisonment and the man at Ipswich got twenty the name is rightly withheld. This man is a years, and is now in St. H elena serving that "legal practitioner," whatever that nondescript sentence of twenty years. At the time I said it animal mav be. It is some sort of a hybrid, I was a crying shame, and I protested against it believe, flllfl I know I am not one of them, as I with my voice and my pen, and I protest against am a pure "solicitor;" hut the ca"e in which he it now in thib House as an outrage against is concernerl is an ex parte application :;o far call­ decency and justice. ing upon him to answer certain affidavits, which 1038 Motion for Ail;journment. [ASSEMBLY.] Messagefrom ~egtslative Council.

may or may not be true; and I think it is a The HoN. P. PERKINS, in reply, said : lVIr. wise thing-that the name is not stated, when, after Speaker,-The reason I have taken action this all, there may not be any truth in the statements afternoon is bec1.use I do not want to give a lie n1ade against the 1nan. twentv-four hours' start in Brisbane. It is not Mr. HODGKINSO:'-l": Why, then, should the myself that is concerned in thi, matter; it is the name of any man put upon hi;; trial be divulged! shareholrlere of the company, who are distributed, I may say, all over Australia. Personally, I do not Mr. HEES R. JO:'-l"ES: No man ought to be care the pic:ce of paper I hold in my hand; the put upon his trial unless the charge is formulated judge may say what he likes about me. The weight again;;t him. In this case I say it is an ex parte of my character will outlive anything he can appli<"'tion to the court calling- upon this man, say. As to the remarks of the Chief Secretary, when served with the necec.sary documents, to the leader of the Opposition, and Sir Thomas show c:tuse why he sLoulcl not be struck off Mcil wraith, I am not at all insensible to their the roll; and, therefore, his name is rightly suggestions, and I posoibly may .:.et upon them suppressed. I should be very sorry to find the at a future date. I hope I shall not have name of any hon. member of thi.s House, against a similar thing on my hands for a long time, and whom a charge was made e.x pa?'l>", published that it will be long before we shall have such a before the charge against him was formuhted. painful scene in the House again. I would ask the Mr. STEYJ<~:'-l"S said : i\Ir. Speaker,-! was House, what other tribv.nal is there to appeal to. rather amused at the irony of the leader of the You, ~1r. Speaker, have just informed us that Opposition when he spoke of the unprotected some Speaker of the House of Commons has state of the judg-e". and when immccliately after­ laid .it down, that there is a certain way of wards one of them is rlefended by four of the getting at the judges by an address to the Crown ablest members in this House. That show" their praying for their remonll. But suppose I w~s utter unprotectedness. They could haV.e made not a member of the House, and was merely m scathing speeches on the subject, but they were thA position of head of a husiness, what redress wise in their generation. The 1Tinister for Mines should I then have, especially when I cannot and \Vorks r·~·commended the hon. member for get the newspapers to print the truth for me? Cambooya to take a constitutional step if he 'This is onlv the seconct time I have moved the wanted any sati"faction. \Ve have had one insta nee adjournment of the Hon'se, and I have acted already this afternoon of the ctifficulty in dealing under a sense of duty I owe to the share­ with a jud,;e of the Supreme Court. I know an holders to begin with, and to myself afterwards, instance in which a lawyer year after year robbed and to expo.'·e what I believe ,_,-as a wanton and scores of people in various trades, and took wicked attack upon the members of a firm. As money from them for carrying out certain ser­ my letter states, the judge can have no notion vice.s which he

The Ho:so. SIR S. W. GRIFFITH (in the "2. A person who presents a petition to eHher IIonsa absence of lVIr. Huckland, the hon. member in of Parli.ament does nvt incur any liability as for defamation lJv the publication to that House of Parlia­ charge of the Bill), moved that the message be ment of any- dr.famatory matter contained in the taken into consideration on ]i'riday, the 1Gth petition. instant. 1 ' 3. Xo person incurs any li.ab!lit~· as for defamation Question put and passed. by -publishing, by or.lcr or llJl(ler tho authority of either Honse of Parliament, any paper containing tlefam:ttory FOR::\IAL MOTION. matter." The following formal motion was agreed to:­ The MINISTER FOR MIXES AND By Mr. BARLOW- \VORKS said that before that clause was put he would like to know whether any hon. member 1. That a select committee be appointed to inquire into any sanit.ar~, contracts that h~vA been made with intended moving an mnend1nent in clause 11, as, the municipal authorities of Korth and South Brish:-1ne if so, a corresponding amendment should be during the last five year,~. moved in clau"e 10. 2. That such committee have power to send for The Ho;. Sm S. W. GRIFFITH: That is persons and papers and leave to sit dnring any adjourn­ so-they ought to b.3 on the same footing·. ment of the IIou~e. and thnt it consist of .:Sir San::.uel Gritlith, :J:Iessrs. Black, Jordan, Powers, Agnew, Salkelcl, The MINIS'l'ER FOR MINES AND and the mover. IVORKS saicl that considering what they had heard that afternoon about the latitnde of. DEFAMATION BILL. speech allowed to judges in the colony, if hond CmnnTTEE. members were really serious in hat they hae On the motion of the HON. SIR s. vV. said, some amendment sho11ld be moved in clans- GRIFFITH, the Hnu"e went into Committee 11, and if th ,,,t were intended a similar amend­ to consider this Bill in detail. ment should be inserted in cbuse 10 also. On clause 1, as follows :- The PREMIER said that he wished to under­ " This Act may be cited as the Defamation Act of stand whether, in the case of a petitioner pre­ 1889." senting a petition to ParJi,unent of a defamatnry On the motion of the HoN. Sm S. IV. character, eupposing thatvetition were published, GRIFFITH, the figures "lSSG" were omitted an action would lie ngainst the pu hlL.,her. and "Queen>land" inserted. The HoN. Sm S. IV. GRIFFITH said an Clauses 2 to 6, inclusive, passed as printed. action would not lie ag·ainst a petl tioner for merely pre,enting a petition to Parliament, hut On clause 7, as follows:- if he were to take the petition outside, then an " Pnblication is, in the case of \VOrds :..poken, the action woulcllie. speaking of such words in the presence and hearing of any other person than the person defamed, and, in the The PREMIER said that if the petition were case of other defamatory matter, the exhibiting of it published-say in Hansanl-wonld that be a in public, or causing it to be read or seen, or shmvinO' breach of privilege? or delivering it, or causing it to be shown or delivered~ The Hox. Sm S. W. GRIFFITH said that with a view to it~ being read or seen, by any othe; person than the person defamed." publication in Hm;sw"l was privileged, and that could not be held to be defamation. That had Mr. REES R. JONES said he would ask if been settled a long time back. Parliament was the the publication in the case of words spoken would highest court in the realm, and as the pro­ apply to the wife or the husband of the person ceedings there were matters of public interest defamed? In law, husband and wife were they should he marle known. Anyone had a regarded as one, and he thought it would be right to rnake a cotnphtint to the highest better to insert "including the wife or husband court, and if a petitioner thought fit to abuse of the person defamed, as the casA may be." It anyone it could not be helped. l~very corn­ was a gross outrage upon a wife to. defame her plaint really was defam'l.tor::, as every peti­ husband, and a much grosser outrage to defame a tion for relief must be more or less defama­ wife, and if there was no other person present tory, as it must accuse somebody of hav­ the person defaming would not be liable. ing done \Vrong, or else thE're \Vould bG! no The Ho"'. Sm S. W-. GRIFFITH said pub­ claim for redress, though under ordinary circum­ lication to husband or wife was sufficient. That stances no one would think an~·thing of it. Of was shown in an action in England the other day course they should use any privilege of that sort when an action was hrought by 1\Ir. Campbeli­ within reasonable boundJ. There was a danger ~raed against somebody, and the only publica­ of those bounds being exceeded, but hitherto it tiOn proved was a letter written to his wife- had been found impossible to lay down cl tme any person outside, but it had been the tion of any defamatory matter in the course of a speech usnge for a very long- time to allow rnembers of made by him in Parliament. Parliament to speak freely, and he would be sorry 1040 Difamation Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Difamation Bill. to assist in any way to debar members from matter froin Hansard and circulate it. If a man speaking their mind" freely upon any matter, made extracts from Hctnscwd for public informa­ without considering whether it was defamatorY tion in the ordinary way he might. In other or not. He could not see, if an amendment cases the publication might be justified on other were to be made in clause 11, that they should grounds, but not because it was said in Parlia­ therefore make an amendment in clause 10. ment. The Hox. A. RUTLEDGE said he did not Mr. REES R. .TONES said that the circula­ think there was much danger to anyone, as they tion of what might be considered defamatory did not publish petitions--in many cases they matter amongst people having a common interest were not even read-and it was for the Printing would be protected. If the hon. member for Committee to decide whether any petition should Cambooya circulated the letter he had read ever see the light. It was not necesF.ary to do amongst the shareholders of Perkins and Co., he anything by which petitioners might be fright­ would not be liable, because they all had a ened out of asking f0r their rights, lest they common interest in the matter. should be transgressing the law by doing so. The MINii::lTER FOR MINES AND Parliament was quite capable of guarding the vVOllKS said he knew of an instance in which a outside public from any danger. · member used to slander another man from time The MINISTER FOR MINES AND to time in that Chamber, and on every occasion WORKS said that they knew the right of peti­ when he uttered those slanders he used to circulate tioning Parlianient was very old, but at the Hcmsa1·d to a large extent, so that the slanders present time it was nearly worthless. By clause might be circulated over the colony broadcast. 4 they had already defined what defamation was. The Ho:s". Sm S. W. GRIFFITH: There is Defamation not only concerned a member of nothing here to protect him. Parliament, but it might concern his relatives, The MINISTER FOR MINES AND whether living or dead ; and why should a vVORKS said that Hccnscwd was a privileged petitioner have the privilege of having protection publication. through the statement being made in Parlia­ The HoN. Sm S. W. GRIFFITH: Only when ment. True, they did not publish petitions, but published by the Government Printer. there was a committee which did publish them, and when a petition was read in Parliament, The MINISTER FOR MINES AND it was published to the seventy-two members vVORKS said it was published by the Govern­ of that Parliament, nnd after that it was sub­ ment Printer in the C\tSe to which he alluded. mitted to the Printing Committee to decide The member to whom he referred used to pay for whether it should be printed or not; and when copies of Hansa1·d, because it pleased him to do it was printed it was circulated. After what so, and circulated them in thousands all over the had fallen from the hon. member for Burrum, colony to slander the individual whom he dis­ aLout the very ancient privilege n1embers of liked. Parliament possessed, he might say that the Mr. HODGKI~SON said the Committee privilege possessed by judge'' was quite as should be careful not to interfere in any way with ancient ; the two cases stood exactly upon the the privileges of that Chamber, even though such same foundation, and what affected the one cases might occ,'\sionally arise. He thought he should affect the other. That was the reason knew the case to which the Minister for Mines and why be said that if they intended to curtail the vVorks referred, and he thought it had been accn­ freedom of speech of the judges, they should ratelv described. But, he would ask, did tbose also curtail, to some extent, the liberty of speech slanders carry any weight with men whose opinions of members of Pnrliament in defaming each were worth anything? In their efforts to curb other when discussing any question of public in­ the influence of pique or malice of members of terest, or in defaming people outsidr the House. that Chamber-if there were such members­ Mr. GANNON ,,aid he thought the case which they might let go the privilege of saying what they had cropped upthatafternoon was one which might thought proper at any time, and on any subject. If very well be referred to in connection with the any member so far abnsed his position in that clnuse. The letter read by the hon. member for Chamber as to make it a medium for the exhibition Cambooyn, would be published in Hansard and of malice, whe~t weight would he carry with form part of the records of that Chamber. other hon. mcmhers or in the country? They all Suppose that hon. member had the letter pub­ knewwhena member \Vas speaking in the interests lished in pamphlet form and circulated it amongst of the country and when he was speaking simply the shareholders of Perkins and Co. would it be with the view of exhibiting his petty personal considered as defamatory matter? dislikes; and he knew of no instance in which a member had so far forgotten himself as to The PREMIER said he thought that what prostitute his position, without being treated the hon. member wanted to get at was this: If with contumely in that Chamber, and as a man the clause passed, a letter that might be thought of no account outside. defamatory, if published in Hansard, might The HoN. P. PERKINS said he differed from afterwards be circulated outside without being the hon. member for Burke in the opinion that ddamatory nnder the clause. If that was the slanderscarriednoweight. The hon. member must case it might lead to allowing members, under have forgotten what Carlyle ;aid about four-fifths the privilege of Parliament, to libel or defame of the people in tbe world being fools. )!'our-fifths people whAn they were not allowed to do so by of the people who read newspapers believed law outside. Tbe case instanced by the hon. everything that was published. And why should member for Toombul was very much to the they not believe it when it appee~red in HanscC1'd? point. Be would not argue the matter any further, but The HoN. Sm S. W. GRIFFITH said that he recommended the leader of the Opposition to no action would lie for the publication in Hctnsard withdraw the Bill in order that they might get by the Government Printer of anything s

The HoN. SIR S. W. GRIFFITH said the praying for his removal; but that was a very time at the disposal of private members during difficult thing to do, as Wcts evident from the the session was very limited, and there was a case of Judge Booth by, in South Au;;tralia, and very short time at his dispos.tl for that Bill, a.nd that of another jud~e in Victoria. Although as probably there would not be another chance judges were not at all likely to run riot in their during the session to dPal with it, he was not remarks, yet he thought that in passing a Bill of eager to enter into a discussion, unleR-~, he was that kind, the question, if not absolutely settled obliged to do so. Having brought in the by the measure, might be very fairly commented Bill at the request of a large number of upon, with an exprPssion of opinion from the person~, he had every desire to see it pass, Committee as to the great license allowed to the and d1d not want to talk out his own Bill. judges "~t the present time, intimating to them It was suggested that liberty of speech in courts at the >·ame time that if they abused that license of justice should be restricterl. vVould bon. the legislature, which was above all judges, members consider for a moment what the effect would be prepared to deal with them. of that would be? Take the case of a judrre Mr. GANNO::-r said he wished to call the trying a criminal case. How was it possible f~r attention of the Committee to an incident him to sum up without uttering defamatory which happened in Brisbane a short time ago; he matter towards some one at any rate? Supposing wondered it had not been mentioned in the tha~ person was at liberty to bring an action House immediately after it took place. He agamst the judge for slander, the judge would referred to the closing of George street by the have to defend himself. Of course under the Chief Justice. Not only did the Chief Justice Bill an action of that kind would be frivolous close the street, but he placed constables there and would be stopped at once ; but otherwis~ with instructions to take into custody any man the judge would ha Ye t(J set up a defence that who attempted to pass along. ~What he wanted the language complained of was used in the tcl know was whether a judge had the power to ~ourse of su1ntning- up, or passing sentence, that close any street in that city. He was told it was 1t was relevant to the matter in question, and judge-made law and not the law of the land, and did not exceed the proper bounds. But to he had brought forward the matter to ascertain make a judge liable to have it submitted to from the Premier, or the leader of the Opposition, a jury whether his summing up was a proper whether the judges really had that power. ?ne or not, or th_e o~servations he made in giving Judgment were Justified, would lead to this, that Mr. RJmS R. JONES suggested that the they would never get anyone to undertake the clausP should be amended so as to include the functions of a judge. public.~tion of evidence which might contain any defamatory matter. The POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Hon. J. Donaldson): vVhat about the license of counsel? The HoN. Sm S. W. GRIJ<'FITH said that that subject was dealt with in clause 13. Clause The HoN. SIR S. W. GRIFFITH said the 11 simply related to the privileges of judges, same argument applied to counsel. As a matter witnesses, and others in courts of justice. of fact, counsel in that colony very seldom exceeded the bounds of fair speech, and when 1\Ir. PO\VERS said he could not see how any they did eo in other places it was the fault of amendment could be introduced, which would the judges for letting them. The same ar~u­ curtail the privilege of the judges, and yet allow ment applied also to witnesses. If the que.,ti'on them fair play in those matters. No doubt they was to be submitted to a jurv as to whether a exceeded reasonable limits sometimes, and every· witne"S had said more than he ought, no man one regretted it and hoped that it would not be would give evidence at all. The whole machinery continued; but that they should have to weigh of courts of justice would be entirely stopped if every word they said in commenting on the con­ everything said had to be afterwards submitted duct of a witness was going too far. They had to the criticism of a jury as to whether to discuss the conduct and evidence of nearly every something had been said which on~ht not to witness who came before them, anrlpointout to the have been said. 0 jury thAir credibility or otherwise, and in doing The PRE:\1IER said the judges at present so they had often to make defamatory remarks had in ~heir hands the terrible power of marring about witnesses, and in the questions put to or blastmg the rermtatwn of almost any man in witnes,;es. He should be willing in the interests the community l1y a few remarks from the of the public to curtail the privileges of even the judgment seat. vVith regard to slanders uttered judges, but he could not see any practical way of in Parliament, they generally arose from political doing it. If the judges continued to go on or personal anirnuR ag.1inst an opponent, and their against the Yoice of Parliament and of the public, effect soon passed away ; but the remarks of a and discussed things they had no right to discuss, judge, if he chose to do so, left a lasting mark on the best way of dealing with the matter would a man's reputation. He thought that power be to bring it formally before Parliament and let shoul~ be checked as far as possible. He was it be discussed. He thought a great deal of blame speakmg of judges who were absolutely impartial, attached to papers for publishing defamatory but he was afraid there were judges-he would matter. It would be quite sufficient if they :>ot say in that colony-who were not absolutely published the judges' remarb bearing on the 1mpart1:>l, and who, 1f they were tried by a jury case, but they often published defamatory of their peers, might have some sentences passed remarks which bad no bearing whatever on the upon thern, or, at any rate, some adver:-:;0 criticism case. He thought if the papers exercised more with regard to their conduct. He did not see discretion in that matter, there would not be so why judges should be so absolutely protected as many complaints about defamatory remarks. they were l1y th»t clause. No matter how high He did not see any practical way of putting the a n1an 1night he in position, he could not see why amendment suggested in the clause, and thought he should be allowed to damage, by one sentenc~, the clan e should be allowed to go as it stood. the character of a man for all the re ,t of :\fr. BARLOW said he harl heard a judge his life. ~While thoroughly believing that they s2y to a witness, "I don't believe a word you should do everything to uvhold the dignity o.f s>ty,'' and he had heard a judge, in discharging a the bench, the pnblic, at the same time, had man who had beo,n tried by a jury of his a right to be protected as well. Ao it was at countrymen and acquitted, caution him, and present, it was a very one-sided protection indulge in a tirade of abuse against the prisoner, indeed. The only way to get at a judge, it thus leading people to snppose that although the appeared, was to move an address to the Crown man had been tried a-nd a-cquitted, the judge 1044 Difamation Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Difamution Bill. and everybody else in court believed him to be to apply to the Legislative Assembly for leave guilty. He would like hon. members to place of absence on a salary which was an increase on themselves in that man's position. and consider the ordina;·y itllowance, and it was refused by what would be their feelings if so treated. People the Assembly. Those, therefore, might be words who were brought before courts of justice might of wisdom. That was the story any way. be very humble, ignorant, and badly clothed, The HoN. P. PERKI:'{S said a very useful but they had the same feelings as hon. membere, suggestion had been made to him, which was and were deeply hurt when injurious remarks that hon. m ern hers returned to that House of that kind were addressed to them by the judges should be licensee! to go into court with briefs. after they had been acquitted by a jury of their He .shLdministered it as a justice of the they would make a very bad use of them. They peace, and it had n,] ways been his desire to study all 'knew that the ]racier of the Opposition had every word he sn,id, and to take care that nothing got it all in _his own hands. He threw that out in his speech or demeanour would hring the as a suggestion. administration of justice into contempt. In many cases it was brought into serious contempt Mr. HA:JIILTON said that he considered by the conduct of gentlemen·who were supposed that the counsel should also be restricted as well to be the highest ministers of the law. as the judiTe.<. Because counsel was hired to conduct a c~se it was no reason wh:v he should The HoN. A. RUTLEDG:B; said it was unani­ be allowed to depreciate any man's character in mously decided on the second reading of the order to injure the value of his evidence with the Bill that it should pass, and he hoped hon. mem­ jury. Certainly the publication of statements bers would push on with it, in order to get it of that sort afterwards should not be exempt. throug-h Committee as soon as possible. To Clause put and passed. hear the observations that had been made about judges one would suppo'e that they were Clause 12-" Reports of official inquiries"­ the greatest monsters the civilisation of the 19th put and passed. century had lPt loose. · On clause 13-" Reports of matters of public interest"- The MINISTER FOR MINES AND ·woRKS: They are no better than other people. The MINISTER FOR MINES AND \VORKS said that as that was a very long clause The HoN. A. RUTLEDGE said he thought he would sutnd ments made by men who had no right to make drawing their attention to the conduct and them? He had known of cases coming before the demeanour of witnesses in the witness-box; but licensing authorities, which the words "any court could the hon. member justify the remB.rks of justice" would cover, where men had run of the judge that had been referred to earlier in down the character of the n.ccommodation and the evening in the case of the in sol vent Simonsen, standino- of a hotel- a thing they had no in which he referred to brewers, publicans, and right to"' do. He had known other cases where so forth. ·what had that to do with the case? magistrates, presiding in courts of justice, Nothing whatever. Those were the kind of had made comments which were not justi· remarks that were objected to, and he did not fied by the evidence, and what right had a see why judges should be privileged to make paper to publish those comments ? \Vhy should such remarks. That justice could be administered a man who happened to be traduced by the pre­ without any such privileges he was confident, siding officer in an inferior court of justice be and he was confident also that they could not further traduced by any paper publishing the expect lawyers to propose a remedy. comments along with the evidence? It was only The PREMIER said as an illustration of how right that the evidence should be published, bnt indiscreet speeches from the bench might result not the comments made perhapL by men who did in disadvantage to the judge himself, he might not understand anything about the matter. state that on one occasion a Chief Justice of New The Hox. Sm S. W. GRil<'FITH said that South ·wales had brought before him a man who surely the hem. gentleman did not propose to objected to be tried by him. ·when asked his limit the publication of the proceedings in a reason he said, "Because you have got a down court of justice, which were supposed to be open on me." 'rhen said the judge, "Are you to the public, alth

place. The evidence was not the whole of of any difficulty' that might arise from the the proceedings of a court of justice. A great publication of scurrilous matter. That was o!'e many things would have to be omitted if the of the re:tsons why he thought some more defimte cbuse stated that only the evidence should be phrases should be used. published, such as the opening of the case, the Amendment negatived, and subsection passed statement of facts necessary to make it intelli­ as printed. gible, the summing-up of the judge, and the find­ ing of the jury. Tho"e were all essential parts of Subsections 4 and 5 passed as printed. the report; but the h

respectable newspapers in every country which repntable character, and by their compliance wou!d not yublish anything defamatory in con­ with a public need; and where they failed in nectwn wrth public proceedings, but those that, it "as not so much the fault of the papers respectable newspapers could almost be ennme­ as of the people who patronised them. He rated on one's fingers. The great majority of understood the objection to the clause, hut, he the newspapers would publish such matter simply asked, was it not po;siblP when anythinf( took to increase their circulation, and respectable place aL a local board or a public meeting that it newspapers woulrl have to descend to the same was considered objectionable to publish, that the thing in order to compete with other papers. In thing would be intensified by conversational America the members of local bodies spoke very reports, whereas a reputable paper, £m its own strangely to each other, bnt that was not the sake, would only publish what was absolutely case sixty or seventy years >tgo. The Press had essential to the public interest? As a rule helped to degenerate the tone of public morals in that would be the case, but there were excep­ America, and if it was protected in tbe same way tions. N ew;papers were like individuals, they in Queensland the very same result wonld ensue. were a reflex of the men who conducted them, It was all very well to talk ahout respectahle and no man was perfect.. He did not think newspapers and re·•.pectable men. ~\_respectable they had any cause to be ashamed of the man would not defame another, neither would a papers of this colony as a class ; of course they respectable newspaper defame a man or circuhte might be made more perfect; but the perfec­ slander, but they had to deal with newspapers tion of newspa]Jers was attended with great that were not respectahle. They made laws not expense. If they refused to newsvapers the for honest, but for dishonest men ; not to keep privilege which that clause would confer they honest men in the path of virtue rmcl rect.itude, wt.uld open the door to a current of scandal, but to prevent dishonest men doing what was which would be far wor.,e than a public report wrong. He appreciated the Bill, and would of the proceedings of any meeting would be. As like to see it become law, but would not like to it was now, they could refer to any metropolitan see those two subsections hecome lav.·_ organ and find a fair report of public meetings, The HoN. Sm S. W. G RIF:B'ITH said the however it might be coloured by the idiosyncrasy tendency of all modern law had been in the or policy of the paper. The proprietors knew that direction of freedom of discussion ancl report. the value of the paper depended on the merits The two provisions to which objection ~vas taken of the men on its staff, and their reports on the were adopted in England last y :tr, after a great whole were faithful reports; but the same re­ fight, it"'"' true, l1ut they w'ere now statutory liance could not be placed on a conversational law in England. He was amazed that the hori. repetition of any scene that might have occurred. gentleman, of all members of that Committee, 'The PREMIER said he agreed with a great should object to such a very important provision. deal that hatl been said by the hon. member who He thought the hon. gentleman was the champion had just sat down. He admitted that the Press of free speech. of Queensland \ras one of which, on the whole, they might be proud. But the strength of a The MINISTER FOR MINES AND chain was its weakest link, and they had some WORKS : So I am, but not of defamation. very weak links in the newspaper chain, even in The HoN. Sm S. W. GRIFFITH said he Bri,bane. did not approve of license of speech, but of The HoN. Sm S. W. GRIFFITH: We freedom of speech. Those two subsections were should not legislate on that basis. taken from the English Act. The section in the The PREMIER said he thought they should ,English Act was rather complicated, and he had legislate on that basis. They should consider endeavoured to simplify it in that Bill. '!_'he what blackguard ]Japers would do if they had i:nglish law provided that- the licen.se which would be given them by that " A fair and accurate report pnbllshed in an.\· ne 1\'S­ clause. They had no fear of the re.;pectable paper of ~he proceedings of a pnhlic meeting. or (cxcLpt journals of the colony abu,ing any powers that where nmther the public nor nny new~p;_qJer Teporter is admitted) of any meeting of a ve:-;tr.v, town C}uncil, might be conferred on them Ly that BilL But school board, board of guardians, board or local antho­ they knew that there were scurrilous rags which rity, formed or constituted under the provisions oi any would take ad vantage of a clause like that to Act of Parliament, or of any committee appointed hy be even still more blackguardly than they any of the above-mentioned bodies, or of any meeting were now, if such a thing were possible. Those of any commissioners authorised to act by letters patent. Act of P:nliament, 'varra.nt nnder t'he RoynJ were the rags they had to protect the public Sign ·Manual, or othcT law·ful warrant or anthority, against, and to preYent polluting their houses ; select committees of either House of Parliament, and the present was a time when they harl justices of the peace in quart~ r ~essions assembled for an opportunity of preventing such disgraceful administrative or deliberative purposes"- pnhlications coming into circulation in the com­ and so on, enumemting a number of other munity. He saw in the papers that day that matters- a newspaper called the Dead Bird was being " shall be privileged, unless it shall be prov a that such proceeded against in another colony. The name report or publication was published, or made malici­ was, he fancied, a very appropriate one to give ously.'' such a newspaper, and he said distinctly that Then there W

The HoN. SIR S. W. GRIFFI'l'H said as WESTEitN AUSTitALIAN CONSTITU­ the limited time for private business had almost TION. expirecl, he would move that the Chairman leave the chair. He did not know whether it ADDRESS TO THE QUEEN. was any use asking for leave to sit again. On The PREl\IIER, in moving·- looking at the business paper he did not see any That an Address be preseut"d to Her )fajesty the chance of the Bill coming on again for a month, Queen, praying tllat Her ::uajesty may be graciously nnd that was on a Thursday afternoon, so that if pleased to grant Tesponsible Gov~rnment to the colony half the time allowed for private business was to of We~tern Australia- be taken up with a motion for adjournment, as it· s:tid: Mr. Speaker,-Although it may :tppear had been that afternoon, it would be perfectly that we are backward in taking action in this idle to go on with the Bill, and he did not wish matter, it has not been in any respect the fault of to waste the time of the Committee. the G"vernment. The matter has been before The MINISTEit JWR MINES AND them for many dayg past, and they have been \VORKS; These two clauses are the most acting in concert with New South \Vales more objectionable clauses in the Bill. perhaps than the Government of any other colony, in the hope, and up to the bst almost The Hox. Sm S. W. GRIFFITH said they in the belief, that a conference would have been were the ones which might be thought an innova­ held to deal with this question. Those hopes tion, but he did not think they were. He clid have, however, up to the present time, been not know whether the Government would give disappointed; that is to say that Victoria, South him any assistance in passing the Bill. Australia, t>nd 'rasmania, although not object­ The PH,E1HEit : 'l'here is no desire to ing to a conference being held with regard obstruct the Bill. to this very important qne;tion, have de­ 'l'he HoN. SIR S. W. GitiFFITH said he clined, at present at any rate, to do more believed the Bill was one of very great import­ than send home an address to Her Majesty. ance, and he would like to see it become law. Although that is the c:tse, there is no difference He moved that the Chairman leave the chair, of opinion amongst these col.mies with regard to report progress, and ask leave to sit again. the necessity of pressing upon the Imperial Go­ vernment the propriety-or rather, I should say The MINISTEit FOrt MINES AND the urgent necessity-of granting responsible \VOitKS said before the question was put, he government to \V estern Australia. That being would like to state that he had in his so, this Government have agreed, for the pre­ hand a Bill referring to the law of libel, sent, to content ourselves with passing such intr"duced in New Zealand by the Hon. Sir an address as has been passed by the other F. \Vhittaker, who, be believed, was a leading legislatures; at the same time expressing our lawyer in that colony. In that Bill were the hope :tnd belief tht>t before many weeks are pt>ssed, words " fair and accurate report," which the possibly the colonies will meet in conference to deal leader of the Opposition said could not be used. with the larger mt>tters that embrace far more than Of course, he (the Minister for Mines and granting responsible government to that colony. Works) did not profess to know anything about The address that I propose to be adopted by the legal n.spect of the matter, and he simply this House comprises that adopted by the South drew attention to the fact that the words were Australian Legislature, having grafted on to it used in the New Zealand Bill. the addition proposed and canied by the Legis­ 'l'he HoN. SIR S. W. GRIFFITH said the lature of New South \Vales. That is to say that words "fair and accurate report" were taken from in this address this colony does not express the :English Act, and he had given his reason why itself contented only with responsible govern­ he had not introduced them in that Bill. A very ment· being granted to \Vestern Au~tralia. It little consideration would show that no report goes further, and requests the Impenal Govern­ could be strictly accurate, and if the report was ment to do this : that after responsible govern­ required to be accurate no report at all would be ment is given to a portion of the territory of protected. \Vestern Australia-which is now one-third of Question put and passecl. the entire continent of Australia-we urge-we The House resumed, and the CHAIRMAN almost insist-on the Imperial Government that reported progress. there shall be no Crown colony established The HoN. 8m S. W. GitiFFITH said: Mr. within the limits of that portion of Western Speaker,--I m•we that the Committee have leave Australia which is not included within the to sit again on Thursday, September 5. I hope new Constitution. I think that is a very impor­ there may be time for the measure to pass the tant proviso to add to this address. I do other Chamber. not think this colony, or any colony in the Australian group, wants to see any more Crown The l\liNISTEit FOR MINES AND colonies e"tablished upon this continent. Holding WORKS said : Mr. Speaker,-The Bill will those views, we have fallen in with the expres­ probably not be amended much by the other sion of opinion put into the New South Wales House, and as the session will not finish for eight address by Sir Henry Parkes. I think this is a or ten weeks yet, I think there will be ample time time when the colonies of the Australian group to pass the Bill. should stand shonlier to shoulder, and, without The PREMIER said: Mr. Speaker,-The boa,tfulness, without any attempt at colonial Government will have to ask for Monday as an bounce, simply tell the Imperial authorities extra sitting day for Government business, and that Australia, if not for the Australians, is for if the hon. gentleman finds any difficulty in the British people, of which we ourselves form getting the Bill through I shall be very happy to a very large section, intimating also that we give him a Government day for the consideration must have a very large say in any interference of the Bill. on the part of the Imperial authorities with The HoN. SIRS. W. GitiFFITH: I am the existing state of affairs in Australia. I very much obliged to the hon. gentleman. am sure this question of dealing with such a Question put and passed. larg-e territory as \Vestern Australia is one that must put the whole of the Australian colonies At 7 o'clock, on their mettle; and when we perceive as it were The SPEAKEH, said; In compliance with a grasping dispo.oition on the part of the the Sessional Order, the House will now proceed Imperial authorities to put their finger into the with Government business. Australian pie-as they have put it into many 1048 Westo·n Aust1 ctlian [ASSEMBLY.] Constitution.

pies, and sometimes have had to withdraw it­ den.lt with in Crown colonies. Those large grants it is time to see whether we should not have of hmd given in New South \Vales in the old some say in the matter. And what we do sav days, and in \Vestern Australia, too, under the we should say in no undecided tone. I feel Crown colony system, were the worst thing for confident, Mr. Speaker, that althoug·h there the colonies that ever happmed. Sir Napier may be differences of opinion on minor matters Broome points that out fully in a very able between the several colonies of the "~mtralo.sian letter to the Times on the subject. But that is group, there will be no difference of opinion on this beside the question at the pre>,ent time. \Vhat question, and that when theY come to deal with I want to ask this House to do is to it they will deal with it stroi1gly and firmly. It endorse the action that has been taken by the would appear from wh11t we can gather from the other colonies, in asking the Imperial Govern­ English Press-and from that we have gathered ment to take steps to give re,ponsible Government all we know with regard to this \V estern Aus­ to \V estem Australia, and to prevent any portion tmlia Enabling Bill-that the English Govern­ of the teuitory which the Imperial Government ment have been stopped in their endeavour to desires to retain being macle a Crown colony. pass that Bill by some obstruction in the House The South Australian address does notemhracethe of Commons--that is to say, an obstruction to latter portion of the snbject; neither do the ad­ prevent them from carrying the Bill further than dresses from Victoria and Tasmania, they merely a second reading. ask that responsible government be granted to The Ho:-!. Sm S. \V. GRIFFITH: Threatened \Vestern Australia; but the New South \Vales obstruction. :1ddres' does include that portion of the question, which I contend is as important, if not more so, The PREYI:IER: Of conrse threatened obstruc­ th'm the question of giving responsible govern­ tion may mean absolute obstruction. At any ment to \Vesteru Amtrali:1. I hope, Mr. Speaker, rate articles have appeared in the English Pre·:s that there will he n0 dissenti8nt voiee raised which would indicate that a portion of the pre­ against the passing of this address. In fact, I sent Crown colony of \V estern Austrnlia is likely clo not see why I should express such a hope, to be cut off and used :1s a place for the deporta­ because I feel perfectly confident that there tion, not of the criminals, as had been said, of Gre~Ct is not a member of this House who would not Britain, but of the pauper clas"es of Great Britain. join heartily in the expression of opinion that is I think a:ll the colonies object to that. contained in the address which I shall ask the HoNOURABLE 1fEl\IBERs : Hear, hear l Clerk to read by-and-by. I had the pleasure of receiving this evening a telegram from Sir The PREMIER: I do not see why any por­ Henry Parkes, in which he says:-" In a full tion of this continent should ba made a rubbish House last night, fully 100 members being pre­ heap for the shooting of British paupers. Of sent, our address to the Queen was carried course, I look upon the tmnsporta.tion suggestion unanimously amid loud cheers, and was imme~ as one that is too absurd to listen to for one diately afterwards telegraphed to the Secretary of moment. In addition to that, it had been said St11te for the Colonies." That shows how the that probably a Crown colony or colonies nmy be matter w:1s taken np in the sister colony, and I formed in the northern part of present \Yes­ am perfectly cnrtain that her younger sister will tern. Australia, which may become inhabited by be quite as unanimous and quite as enthusiastic coolies or other coloured races. \Veil, I think in passing this n1otion. the colonies have said with unanimous voice­ Hoxot:RADLE 1\IEliiDEHS: Hear, hear l "\Ve will have none of them, we won't have them, we are determined to do without them." England The PRE::\UER: \\'e are a family party, Mr. may desire to deal with those questions in the way Speaker, and we are determined to remain a I have indicated; therefore I think we should family party. This is no question of party make most strenuous protests &ga.inst anything politics. \Ve are determined, so far as we being done with that portion of present \Vestnn can, to act side by side; we are determined to Australia which would allow-so far as we can creat~ a United Australia ; we are determined prevent it-the eotablishment of any Crown ultimately, :1nd I believe before the p~-esent colony whatever. Crown colonies have been, generation has passed, to form ourselves mto a as every member of the House knows, during ;.;re at nation ; a nation w hi eh, I believe, will not at any rate the last twenty yc:us, an anomaly have its parallel, at any rate south of the in our midst. \Ve ha Ye seen their repre­ equator; that will he a great southern power-­ sentatives at conferences and elsewhere; they a power for peace, not a po\Ver for \Var. There have no power, and are in fact a weakne3s to is no nation that we will be aggressive towards, Australia. \Ve know that they r· tve been nor that, I think, will be aggressive towards the great block, the great preventivt1 to federa­ us ; but if aggres,ion does take place, I am perfectly certain that we are r1uite prepared tion, that is to ''W to colonial federation, rt thing to which we all aspire and which we all hope will to defend ourselves. \Ve will be :1lways a soon come abont---the whole colonies forming a peaceful nation; hlm the United States, we united Austrn.Iia having no other forn1 of govern­ will have no one to attack and no one to ment than responsible government. Of course attack us. I look forward to that time with that must come in time, and I think we have perfect certainty, and believing that the people of an opportjlnity now of showing the Imperial all the colonies are actuated by the same desire­ Government, by our united efforts, that we will to create this great power in this great con­ have nothing bnt responsibly governed colonies in tinent-I feel convinced that we will all unani­ Australia. It h:1s been urged as one argnment mously help our little baby sister, Western that the population of \Vestern Australia does Australia, to obtain that freedom, and that getting not warrant responsible government being granted away from leading strings which we ourselves to that colony. The population of \Vestern Aus­ enjoy. tralia is 42,000; that of Queensland was estimated HoxocRABLE J\.fEliiDEHS: Hear, hear l at29,000 at the tin1e of separation, but I believe it The HoN. Sm S. W. GRIFFITH said: Mr. was rather less ; the returns were probably cooked Speaker,-I rise to second the motion, and I do for a sp~cial purpose. It has also been urged that so with very much pleasure. I am not familiar, responstble government should not be granted to nf course, with all the negotiations that have Western Australia because there is s~ch a l;uge been f(oing on between the neighbouring colonies amount of Crown lands to he dealt with, and she on this subject during the last few weeks, but I might deal ba,dly with them. But, Sir, no lands think the general feeling or sentiment in Australia could be dealt with so badly as they have been has been that there is great dange1· of Western Western Ausi1·alian [8 AuGusT.] Constitution. 1049

Australia being very badly treated. They have the time has gone by for a conference now, been led to believe for some time past that they as it will not be possible to hold it until the close would get responsible government ; it lms been of the present session of the English Parliament; assumed, indeed, that they would have had it but if the Dill does not bf·come law this session I before the end of the year. The Imperial Go­ sincerely hope that the conference will be held vermnent promised to give it to them, so far as before the next session of the English Parlia­ they could make such a promise. The matter ment in order to forciblv express the opinions has been discussed at length in various com­ of th~ colonies, and at the same time give the munications between \Vestern Australia and reasons for those opinions. I believe our united the Imperial Government; the final form of remonstrance-whether it has the effect desired the Constit.ntion has been agreed upon, and when or not - will not fail to have a beneficial everything is supposed to be completed, and effect in advancing the cause of the federation little moret ban a matter of form remains to be done of the Austmlian colonies. The part of \V estern to give them what had been long promised, we hear Australia which is to he left out is, I believe, that in consequence of some threatened obstruc­ partlv to be left in and partly excluded from tion, the House of Commons will not go beyond the new colony of \V estern Australia. As I the second reading of the Bill this YE\:U, and after understand it, it is to be included for some that it will be considered. I quite understand purpt•ses of jurisdiction, and it is to be excluded and sympathise with the feelings of the people for other purposes. It is intended that the north­ of \V estern Au;;traha under those circumstances. western portion of \V estern Australia is to be I can quite understand what the feelings of dealt with by the English Parliament, but I think Queensland would have been if, after havinc( a general Australian Parlbrnent would have no been }Jromised separation, the matter was }JUt off ditliculty in dealing with that part of the continent. indefinitely, a6 appears to have been done in A federated parliament could deal with that terri­ regard to \V est ern Australia. I believe it is tory, and administer it hy laws suitable to the quite time, as the bon. gentleman at the head of circumstances of Australia. I quite agree with the Government has said, that we should bet Ye what the Premier said, that even with the mistakes no other form of government on the Australian that a small local parliament-or a parliament in continent than responsible government. I do not a small colony such as \V estern Australia is in go quite so far as he does in saying that Crown point of population-is likely to make it will be colonies are so serious a bar to fed•,ration. It is more beneficial than any other kind of govern­ a serious objection, I know, but still the repre­ ment. The administration of the lands by sentatives of the colony of \Vestern Australia, persons unfamiliar with, or quite ignorant of the whom I have had the honour to meet on several circumstances of, the colony must necessarily occasions, in the Federal Council and in colonial be a series of mistakes. If they do right it conferences, have always shown a most in­ can only be by accident ; whereas if they telligent interest in all Australian . concerns, have a responsible parliament-a parliament although, as the bon. gentleman has said, they elected by the people-and if they make mis­ are always hampered in their action and unable takes, it will be the exception. If they do wrong to act freely. They are able to expre,,s an it will be by accident, whereas in the other case intelligent opinion; but before they can give if they do right it will be by accident. I prefer 01n official opinion they have to telegra}Jh to the a body which is likely to do right. I hope, Governor to know whether they may do so. therefore, that the action we are taking will be That, of course, is a very serious objection to any­ productive of immediate resnlts; but whether it thing like free and concerted action. I some­ is or not I hope the conference the hon. times wonder in what frame of mind the people member referred to will be held, becau"e in what­ in J~ngland are who are, taking up the attitude ever form the Bill may pass I fear it will not yet of threatening obstruction to tlHl propobal to give the control of the whole of the territory to he grant respon.sible government to \Vestern Aus­ dealt with by the \Vestern Australian Parlia­ tralia. One thing is quite certain, and that is, ment. I am sure that I need not press upon that they understand nothing about the value· the Government the importance of taking of responsible government, or the sentiments of advantage of the present occasion which the Australian colonies. I have had the oppor­ has arisen, to advance the cause of Australian tunity of meeting a good many of them, and I federation, and I believe that every member of confess that, although many of them have a this Honse, with one or two exceptions, is will­ great reputation for being statesmen of wide ing to give his assistance in urging on this sympathies and wide knowledge, they limit matter. In this matter we have the warm sym­ their knowledge and their sympathies to a great pathy of Sir Henry Parkes, the Premier of extent to what after all are rather municipal 1\ew South \Vales, who for some time has been affairs, as com]Jared with the affairs of the regarded-perhaps unju,tly- as not being so empire at large. I regret to find that the favourable to the cause of federation as we might obstruction is threCLtcned by the LilJeral side of have desired; but I believe that at the present the House in England, and I deeply regret time we may connt upon his as;;istance. I need that more of the membmB of the great Liberal hardly say that his vast knowledge and experi­ party have not made themselve' acquainted ence in Australian affairo will render him an with the colonies_. There is a growing de,ire immense power for good in the furtherance among statesmen m England to make themselves of that object. I can assure the Premier that, acquainted with the em}Jire at large, over which so far as hon. members on this side of the House the British Parliament is ;upreme; but when we are concerned, be will have all the as,,istance find that their modes of action are such as we which it is in our power to give. I have very have seen, I, for one, begin to wonder whether much pleasure in Rupporting the motion. after CLll they possess such 01 wisdom and know­ The MINISTER FOR MINES AND ledge as wo•.1ld at least be desirable on the part WORKS said: Mr. Speaker,-I have a few of a Parliament which ha6 tn exercise such great words to say upon this question. I must say functions-the greatest functions which have ever that I have not the hope that the leader been exercised by any Parliament in the history of the Opposition has eXfJressed that this of the world. I believe that a solemn remon­ address will have the effect of conferring strance such as this, made b,- the united Austra­ responsible government upon Western Australia. lian Parliaments, connot fa]] to have a serious I am very doubtful indeed, and have very little effect upon the Imperial Parliament. The hon hope, that the united expression of opinion of the gentleman referred to the possibility and the legislatures of Australia at the present time will desirability of holding a conference. I think llave that effect, seeing that in the declarations 1050 Western Australian [ASSEMBLY.] Constitution. which have been made in the House of Commons established. Those people who regret that by membere of the Imperial Government, who we have the control of our lands are acquir­ are responsible for the passing of the vVestern ing too much influence in the British House Australian .Enabling Bill, they have gone so far of Commons and in the Imperial Government, as to say that the Bill will not go beyond and I hope the resistance we shall make through its seconrl reading this sm,,,ion. The reasons a conference will be the means of turning them which have been given are those stated by from their present intentions. I ha,·e not had the leader of the Opposition. There is a party the same experience of conferences as the leader in the House of Gommons which has threatened of the Government and the leader of the Opposi­ to obstruct the passing of this Bill. Why they tion. I have been a member of only one con­ should do so I cannot say, further than this: ference. \Vhat I found when attending the that there is a very strong party in J~ngland, on Chinese Conference was this : vVhen the other both sides of the House of Commons, who are colonies a"reed upon a certain line of action opposed to this Bill. They are not confined to in regard "to the restriction of Chinese immi­ the Liberal party in England, but are to be gration, the representative of \Vestern Aus­ found on both sides. They regret exceedingly tralia, who was with us heart and soul, that the lands of Australia are conferred upon dared not give his vote. He was oblige<;] to the Australian people when they get responsible refrain from voting because he had not rece1ved government. That is, I think, at the bottom of the his instructions from those who were his masters. opposition to the measure which pm poses to give His masters should have been the people of responsible government to \Vestern Australia. I vVestern Australia, but they were people 16,000 can hardly say that I regret that respcm,il,Je miles away. I have much plea"1re in SUJ?l">.rtin_g government has not been conferred upon that this address, but, I may say, hardly wJslnng 1t colony for that very reason. If the Bill pass to become a success, as I would prefer it not to it will not give \Vestcrn Australia the control of be a success until we obtain the gre:1ter success their own lands, and I maintccin that responBible of the colony having the control of its own government without the control of the land is a lands. sham and a fraud. Therefore I am inclined to The HoN. A. HUTLEDGEsaid: Mr. Speaker, think that Providence is working out the destiny -I think the Government are to be congratu­ of Australia in preventing this Bill from vassing lated on having at so early a stage submitted at the present time, and giving the united this address to the House. It speaks well colonies an opportunity of holding a conference, indeed for the cordial feeling existing on the and strongly and firmly expressing their opinion part of our Government towards vV estern Aus­ that the land of ·western Australia, whatever the tralia and also towards the other Governments extent of territory may be, should be given to of th~ various colonies of Australasia, that they that colony and to its legislatnre to dispose of. should so heartily have taken this matter up, I think that probably will be the effect of the and should have been amongst the first to action taken by that party in the House of suggest the holding of a conference immediately Commons, and of the action taken by the on the subject. I only regret that some of the Imperial Go•ernment. vVere I a \VesternAus­ other colonies have not seen fit to endorse the tralian, I would not accept responsible govern­ opinion expressed by the hon. gentleman at the ment on such a condition. I ask hon. members head of the Government, and co-operate with what would be our position here to-night if we him in bringing about a conference. to disc~1ss th!s had not the control of the lands of the colony? It question. The hon. gentleman, m movmg this would be no more than the meeting of a parish addres~, gave many excellent reasons why it s)JOul_d vestry. \Ve should not be leg-islators in the sense be agreed to unanimously, and I do not tlunk rt that we are now. I agree wrth the leader of the would be wise on my part to add much to what Opposition, that whatever mistakes a local legisla­ the hon. gentleman said. It appears to me that ture may make in legislating on the land question the great objection felt by the Imperial Govern­ arc made simply through mistake, and that they ment towards proceeding with this matter just are generall)· speaking in the right ; but, on the now is that they fear there is not time to get it other hand, in the matter of land legislation, a through during the present session; but surely power at a distance of lG,OOO miles, ignorant that is not a reason that should be effectual to of the condition of the colony and of the justify the Imperial Government in denying the sentiments and aspirations of the people, would wishes of the Australian people in a matter of only do right by mere accident. If \V estern such importance. I have no doubt that the Australia obtains responsible government with­ Imperial Government are labouring under the out the control of the lanrl, it will be exploited delusion that this is a question that affects in the interests of certain individuals. 'l'he Go­ \Vestern Australia only, and that it being a local vernment will have no control over their own matter connected with a Crown colony that mines, which are beginning· to be of such value as to has been accustomed to consider itself in lead to the P'{pectation that in \Vestern Australia duty bound to be thankful for small mercies, they have something eqnal to Queensland and when that colony becomes importunate it can be Victoria in the way of mines. Then, again, told to wait the convenience of the Imperial another clanger would con1e in, a greater danger Government. But I am satisfied that when the probably than being without the control of the Imperial Government become aware, :ts they will lanrl. The land in being exploited would not be before to-morrow morning, that this matter is exvloitf'cl by British people, but by certain reo-arded as of the highest importance by the individuals of the British race, and by inferior A~stralian people, they will take a very different races from the East, and their mines would be view of the matter; and even if there should worked by Chinese and other inferior races. be other important subjects requiring to be Taking the matter from a broad point of view, I brought before the House of Commons they believe that Providence is working for our good as will consider this of sufficient importance to we see it has worked for their good in the history justify them in letting those other matters of other nations, and that this opposition to the stand aside and dealing with this as promptly. as Enabling Bill ,.,ilJ be the means of conferring possible. What is the objection to grant;ng the control of the land on the people of \V estern responsible government to \V estern Austraha ? Australia, and preventing the establishment of a It seems to me that the Imperial Government Crown colony there, such as vV estern Australia ought to be alive to the fact that a Crown has been in the past. Even South Austmlia is in colony anywhere in Australia at the present danger, because the Northern Territory is spoken time is an anachronism, and cannot be defended of as a place where a Crown colony may be on any just grounds whatever. Considering that Western Australian [8 AuGusT.] Constitution. 1051 when Queensland obtained separation from New whatever to make any distinction between one South 'vV ales with responsible government we had colony and another. If we go into England we only a population of 2il,OOO, it is something that find that the peoule of Durham, Cumberland, we can hardly contemplate with anything like and Yorkshire cannot understand one ttnuther, equanimity that an objection should be raised but here we all speak the same language ; to a colony with a popnlation of 42,000 re­ there is no difference whatever. Therefore, ceiving the bles:sings of responsible government. the conditions of society out here are very much The British House of Parliament is always more favourable towards the formation of a desirous that it should be furnishel with great country than the conditions which h~ve precedents. If the precedent in the case of existed in any part of the old wor)d. I thmk Queensland was one which ought to have made we ought to do our utmost to ass1st a colony the Imperial Parliament pause before proceeding like ·western Australia in obtaining the sctme in the path of progress-if the granting of re>pon­ benefits that we enjoy, and I feel perfectly sible government to this or any other Australian certain that if they secure 'responsible govern­ colony was an experiment which had proved ment and have supreme control over their lands, a failure, then I could understand that there we ;hall soon have n, federation which will would be some reason why there should be ultimately become one of the most powerful and an indisposition at the present time to grant prosperous nations in the whole world. responsible government to 'vV estern Australia. Mr. HODGKINSON said: Mr. Speaker,­ But in every case where responsible government ! think this is a subject on which hon. members has been vouchsafed the Australian colonies, the should spe:tk, and give a reason for the fa1th thttt result has been far in excess of the most sanguine is in them. 'rhe :i'vlinister for lVImes and \Vorks expectations of those who desired separation, has suo-.rested in a very adroit manner certain and who believed that separation would turn out reason~~vhy he is not anxious that this matter a benefit, both to the colonies themselves and to should be passed through the House of Commons the Imperial Government. The colony of queens­ at p~esent ; but I think that an i_mmediat; and laud has not shown any disposition to make o,ny unammous remonstrance on the first occaswn of misuse of the power granted to her in connection this question coming before the Australian with the disposal of the public estate, and there public will have great weight, and will sho~ at should, therefore, be no fear on the p:1rt once how acutely sensible the different legiSla­ of the Imperial Government that, at this ture~ of the colonies are of the importance and time of the day, the \V estern Australian neceosity of granting responsible goven:ment to people would be likely to abuse the power thejuvenile member of the group. I thmk there conferred upon them of dealing with the public are perhaps other reasons than those which have lands of that colony. I quite agree with the been given for the action taken by some members Minister for Mines and \'1 orks, that responsible ofthelmperia!Parliament. There ionodoubtthat government, without the control of the public the liberality with which self-government was lands, would be a blessing that one might be justi­ first bestowed on these colonies, was due in a fied in declining with thanks; it would be a stupen­ great measure to the desire of the Imperial Go­ dous farce. I do not think, when we have an vernment to get rid of the responsibility of :1ddress of this kind coming from so many Par­ governing them, their desire to get rid of t~e liaments at one time, that there is any reason expense of maintaining Imperi2.l troops m to doubt that the error which the Imperial Go­ Australia, and to their ignorance of the real value vernment have fallen into in expressing their of the issue at stake. Australia has now a;osnmed intention of not proceeding with this matter just a most important position in the eyes of the world, now will be very speedily rectified, and that with regard to her progress and material resonrccs, we shall all be gratified in learning very and some people in England possibly think that shortly that the Imperial Gove1;nment ha_;e the Imperial Parliament wa.s too liberal in the taken action in the matter, and that those p"st. The extraordinary progress of democratic members of the House of Commons who have opinions throughout Australia, has undonbtcdly threatened to obstruct the progress of the !eel people in England to co~sider the pos.sl­ Enabling Bill in the Imperial Parliament will bility that the demands wh10h the colomes see the error of their ways, and cease to offer are making will increase to a still further extent any obstruction to the accomplishment of what in the form of self-government. lt is a remark­ is not merely the desire of a few peopl~ in able fact that one of the ablest of the great pro­ vVestern Australia, but the unanimous wish consuls who rule over portions of outlying British of the great self-goYerning colonies of united territory-I allude to Sir Hercules Robinson-has Austrahsia. recognised so clearly that this democratic march Mr. PAUL said: Mr. Speaker,-I look upon cannot rest where it is now, but must ultimately this as one of the most imuortant subjects that "'"ume a form of government which we will. not has ever been introduced in this Parliament rro further than allude to at the pre<,ent tnne, since separation took phce. I have to offer that he has absolutely forfeited the most brilliant my sincere thanks to the head of the Gnvernment prospects in the service to which he belongs, for the practical and sympathetic wtty in which because he had the courage of his convictions. he has spoken of the various colonies. He said He is a gentleman whoRe opinions carry great that he considered that the ttction now being weight, and possibly he will yet occupy a respon­ taken by the Australian Parliaments wonld sible position in the Imperial Parliament, where tend to bring about a system of federation. I he will be one of the strongest and ablest ad vo­ entirely agree with that sto,tement. The cates of the interests of Australia. The Premier, hon. gentleman also stated that he looked in his remarks, quoted a letter which I have upon Australasitt as likely to be one of the brought with me to the House, a letter written by grandest nations south of the line. I perfectly the Governor of 'vV estern Australia, t:lir Frederick agree with him in that. The conditions in Napier Broom e. He has been indoctrinat~d with Australasia are very different from those six years' service in a Crown colony, and lS not a which prevailed in the United States 0f America gentleman we would look to for an expression of and the Dominion of Canada. Canada was opinion which would place him in conflict with formed of two different nations, the French the Imperial authority, yet he recognises what is and the English. The United States w"'s due to Western Australitt. And what does he founded by the old Cavaliers n,nd Puritans, who do? He does not send his letter through official went over there when there were bad timeo in channels and inquire what his course of action England. But here we have the same class of should be, but knowing what the sentiments people in every colony, and there is nothing of the people of Western Australia are, he writes 1052 Western Aztsh·alian [ASSEMBLY.] Constitution. a letter to the Times, as any other person would berley fielrl, and is now at work, An engine and boiler do, and expresse-, his opinions to the people of arc at this moment being dragged through the far Great Brititin through the columns of that eastern thickets to Yilgarn, where you can pick up the influenthl journal. The letter is a long one, far stones on the ground a.~1d see the gold in them with t.he naked eye. l~rom Pilbana a miner brought to my too long to quote. He first states very clearly ofiice the other day a nugget of 111 oz. Since 1882 the the objections of those who are opiJOsed to annu8.l export of wool ha:s risen from 4,819,758 lb. to granting responsible gm•ernment to \Vestern 8,475,243 lb,, and the public rcYenue from £250,000 to Australia. Those objections we know are as the £357,000." Premier hu.s stated, that the colony will n~t deal I do not know whether those people have yet properly with the lu.nd, and several.other matters. enjoyed the luxnry of Loan Estimates, and I \Ve are Pntitled to ask, looking at the adminis­ suppose not as they are a Crown colony, but tration of Crown colonies in other parts of the no doubt they could deal with loan expenditure world, and the manner in w hi eh land hfts been in that colony as well as we have done here. alicm~ted in millions of acres in Canada and That is a eo m parison of the po;;ition of \V estern Rupertsland, and in another portion of the Australia now with the position of Queensland country which one•• ,belonged to Great Britain-­ at the time she acquired responsible govern­ Virginia, in the United States~ I saY we ment. Rir Frederick Broome then goes on to are entitled to ask mu-selves whether· from comb"t the objections of people who, I believe, our own experience we are not better quali­ are interested parties, agrdnst the cession of fied to gua-rd our own property than an responsible government to \Vestern Australia, irresponsible GoYernment lG,OOO miles

·we are determined that the Parliaments of Aus­ sisted upon the English Government either tralasia shall have absolute control of the lands trusting- us to manage the land on which we were upon which the people they govern live. \V e placed, or to make us a Crown colony again. I know that their object in preventing \Vestern ca.n conceive of no intennedin,te state bet\veen Australia from having the control of the land is granting a people the control of the domain on to plant pauper colonies. There is another which thev arc settled, or keeping them a Crown danger besirl:s that. Even if they ttled on it by another and a far cnohes or some other form of Asiatic labour into disbnt Government--not on],· will there be no the colony. Then what would become of us? unanimity of feeling, Lnt there can never grow up \Vhat would be the good of all our anti-Chinese a prosperous and settled country. 'l'he leader of and anti-coolie laws? We should have to the Opposition mentioned that a great party in keep a regiment of soldiers on our frontiers to England was chiefly opposed to this scheme for keep back these undesirable immigrants. That givilJg control of the hnd to the people nf is another point which it will be just as well \V estern Australia ; that "tatement was quali­ to impress on the minds of the members of fied by the Minister for MineR and \Vorks. No the British House of Commons. We must doubt there m11y be men on both "ides of the also impre's upon them that the whole of the House of Commons opp<'se <1 to it ; but I regret Australian colonies are determined that the very much to say that the party to which I \\'estern Australi::~n people shall get this form of belong when I arn in England, are iti:i chief responsible government, in order to bring- them opponents. I, in England, am an advanced into nnity and harmony with the rest of Aus­ Hadic.cl. I come out here :tnd I find that all tralia. I do not think it is necessary for me to the opinions of the ad' an ~eel Radicals, such as say more on this matter. The speech e.·'· we have freetrade, free representatiun, loc cl g-overnment, listened to have been very eloquent speeches, ::~nd and so on, which I have always l1een prond to sup­ very much to the point. The speeches delivered port, are called Conservative; and I am astonisheanced Radical puty, to which I the other Crown colonies of England. Instead belong when at home, they seem to have of the interior of the colony being settled, the no sympathy with colonial aspir.-ttions, and land '~ould have been covered with marsupials; are preventing the \V estern Australians from our mmes would not have been discovered and having the luanagernent of their own lands. worked; we should not have had one-half our That they h"ve undoubtedly done, much to my present population who would have been confined disgust, Sir. \V e are not prep,ued, I think, to to a quarter of the soil, and who would have be dictated to by even a great pro-consul from been a great deal poorer than we are-poorer India. I believe th:ct if we show the people of not only in material wealth, but poorer in so :B;ngland by our address that we really under­ far as they would not !m ve learned how stand affairs pertaining to Australia, that we to take care of themselves. I do not say condemn their policy, and ask them to put that Queensland has not made many mistake,.. ; \Vestern Australht on the same footing as the she has made a great many. \Ve have been for other colonies have been put on, they must neces­ instance, too swift to borrow money ; alth~ugh sarily listen to us. I am not at all sanguine for that we have had to pay the piper, and it has that many of the gentlemen at home will do us taught us a useful lesson for our future guidance. the honour of reading- wh>tt we say here to night. I deny that \Vestern Australia can attain the At all e' ents I am determined that if any of same position to which we have attained or them do so they shall have my opinion very anything like it, if she is dPprived of the man~ge­ clearly, and I wish to tell my friends the Liberals ment of her lands. If Queensland had been at home, that as Lr as the colonies are concerned granted, in 1859, the same conetitutinn she has they are a set of half-blind people who cannot see now, with the exception of the control of her beyond their noses, and that when they try to Crown lands, where should we have been now? dictate to English people who have learned self Probably we should have been in such a miserable go1•ernrnent in their own country, as to how state that we should have been very near their lands ought to be disposed of, they are the verge of rebellion. I cannot imagine where rully trying to do what can ne1·er be done ; else we should have been, \Ve must haYe in- because I am perfectly certain that if there was 1054 Westm'n Australian [ASSEMBLY.] Constitution. an attempt made to appropriate, as it were, part action of a number of the Liberal party at home, of thi" land for a special purpose and to introduce not only in connection with W estem Australia, races we do not want, it would not lead, to what but as reaards the colonies generally. I must a great many people are anxious for, Imperial S!1Y it is a"policy that I dislike above all things. federation, but would simply hasten what I have \Vhen I was in the old country about three years no wish to see, the separation of the colonies from ago, I had opportunitie~ of mixing with the the mother country. That is the problem. But people, and hearing t)1e views of m.embers of the a great many of those men do not seem to care Liberal party espee1ally at meetmgs and else­ whether we go or not, and while I do not lilw to where, and I ,;,nst say that this policy arise,s, to use a harsh word, I must say that the:t are very a la.rge extent, from a want of knowl.edge ot the stupid. No doubt they consider that they are circumstances and views and desires of the very wise, but I do not consider that they are at colonists. I was particularly strnck .with the all wise, and I think they might very well listen wtve very great effect I cordially approve of the action the Govern­ upon those members of the House of Comm:ms ment have taken, and I am very glad that who have threatened to oppose the grantmg the Hon. the Minister for Mines and \V orks, and of a constitution to \V e;;tern Australia. I the hon. member for Rockhampton, anrl other certainly feel some sympathy with the remarks hon. members have brought forward so eloquently of the Hon. the ::\Iinister for Mines and \Vorks and so well the absurdity of offering to a colony in almost wi"hing that the question may not be responsible government without giving it the settled upon the basis that the people c:f \Vest­ control of its own lands. At the same time, I ern Australia will have no control over their lands. caimot quite agree with the Minister for I am quite sure that anyon~ who is acquainted Mines and \Vorks in wishing, that the action with the history of Australm knows that the now taken by the A nstralian colonies will ITOvernment by Crown officials was a very bad not be succe:-sful, for this reason : Because the thing for Australia: ~ am afraid .that t~e early granting of a system of responsible governme_nt history of Auetralia m connectiOn w1th the such as is suggested at the prcse.nt time, while Crown colonies is not understood by the people it cannot be accepted as a final settlement, will of Australia, and I believe there is great ig:'or­ be very useful in strengthening the hands of ance on this question. Very few Australians \Vestern Australia as a separate colony, and really know what ~e:ious injur.y was don:, and also as one of the coloni''' that has joined what gross favountism was displayed m the in the scheme known as the Federal Council. past under the government of Crov:n officials The Hon. the Minister for Mines and \Vorks in connection with this land questwn. M:>st and other hon. members have pointed out disgraceful gran~;s of land w":re. made, wluch very clearly the grent disadvantages under could not be justified on any prmClp.le whatever, which \Vestern Australia has suffered in and I am quite wre that ther.e IS far m.ore consequence of not being able to speak authori­ dan~er to be feared from the actiOns of offimals tatively at the Council, and I think the in ;, Crown colony in this direction than from granting of even this very imperfect system of any representativ: parliament.. I hope that the responsible government would enable her to Western Australian people w1ll have the full speak with more authoritative voice, to be more control of their lands, and t.he same form of useful ab one of the units of the approaching government as the ,other colon:es have. I h:we federation, and to throw off the last trammels no fear that thev will not act wisely, as they have imposed upon her, nnd obtain a system of the benefit of tl1e experiencB of the other colonies, responsible government such as is nov: enjoyed and that will be a guide to them, so that they by the other colonies. I therefore most cordially may avoid the mistakes whi?h the other colonies approve of the addreRS, and for my own p!1rt I made when they first obtamed responsible go­ hope it will be successful. vernment. I thoroughly support the action of Mr. SALKELD said: Mr. Speaker,-! rise the Government in this matter. simply for the purpose of joining in what appears Mr. CASEY said : Mr. Spe·•ker,-T,hough I to be the nni versa] feeling of approval of the have little to add to the sentiments whiCh have action of the Government in this matter. I am been so eloquently expressed ~y the lea?e.rs of in somewhat the same position as the hon. mem­ of this House I am not desuous of giVmg a ber for Rockhampton, Mr. ~~rcher, and I cor­ silent vote on~ question which ":Jlpeals to us, dially endorse the sentiments he has given utter­ whether Australian born or colomsts from else­ ance to in regard to the treatment of the where. As an Australian, I have to pay my colonies by the old country. I must say that tribute of thanks to the Premier and to the I have experienced a feeling of disgust at the leader of the Opposition, for the opportunity that Western Australian [8 AuGusT.] Constitution. 1055

has been given us of assisting in forming played with regard to the land question. The a great Australian nation-the federated Aus­ display of ignorance has been stupendous, tr<>lasia to which we all look fonvarcl, not as a especially by thoae who are supposed to have a dream of the far-off future, but as a thing which knowledge of the question. The members of we hope will be realised within our own life­ the House of Commons have certainly" displayed time-not with any desire to separate ourselves lamentable ignorance in regard to the land ques­ from the gTcctt mother country, which we all look tion in connection with \V cstern Australia. up to and achnire in a great many ways, in thP Itesponsible goverrp11ent will be of no use same way as a son who goes out into the world, whatever unless the people lmve the control and endeavours to form for himself a home of their lands. It has been ttrgued that a and ]JOSition, without in any way cutting small number of people >ll it progress at travel to the farthest corners of the earth, all, as it lms Leen almost stationary, although the and to see for themselves a great many of colony contains all the elements of wealth. In the outlying dependencies of that mightv empire that territory of a million sqmue miles there is on which the sun never sets, and those gentle­ room to establish three colonies, and the latest men have assisted greatly in gaining for the scientific researches show that in natural wealth various colonies of ~'>custralia what they consider -in gold, copper, and coal-\Vestern Australia is their rights, and what they desired in ordE!' to not inferior tG the other Australian colonies. progress as they have done. I, therefore, have I look upon this motion as another step towards great pleasure, first in thanking, as an Aus­ that which we all delonies should assist gone back because Queensland was separated from VVestern Australia by putting their views Le;ore it? Have we not both equally gone ahead? Anrl the Imperial Government. ·There are two pom~s so will both the Northern and Southern parts of th:ot might as well be brought out more promi­ this colony go ahe>ed at the rate It has done, and I am constitutional government, in the other case confident that our resources would not have been th0 people have had constitutional government developed in the way they have been, or any­ all along egually with the people in the South. thing like it if we had not had self-government. It must be g-ratifying to the Premier to see the The rea·wn 'why the Imperial Government have unanimous feeling with which the address has not granted \V.estern Austrr;lia the .right of self­ been received. Not only is there but one opinion government is, that they wish to withhold from in this Houoe, but there is only one opinion in the p~ople of that colony the control of the the country, and that is that the claim of the public lands, and it is because that boon has people of \Vestern Australia to govern themselves been granted to us that queensland has been under a constitution like ours is a perfectly just so successful. If you WJ,,h to develop the one, and onght to be acknowledged by the lands of the colo~d British politicians to say that the people of I hold we should not rest in our efforts to assist Western Australia are not capable of governing Western Australia until they get the same themselve.; under a constitution. Colonies have been granted constitutional government in this responsible government that we have ourselves. continent under very much l~e.s favourable Mr. S:\1ITH said: Mr. Speaker,-I cordi~lly circumstances than \Vest~rn Australia stands in agree with the motion introduced by the P1:enm~r. to-day, and has there been a failure in a single I think the people of ·western Austr11ha will instance? Nut one. The experience of Aus­ manage their own affairs a great deal better than tralia should teach the Imperial authorities and they are managed in London, and I l~ave not t~e the people of Great Britain that the Aus­ slio-htest doubt that their progress will be rapid tralian people ar@ quite capable of taking care when once they get constitutional governmei;t, of themselves; and I am certain that even the as that has been the history of all new colomes handful of people in that iarge territory which have been granted that blessing. It is a are rrwre capable of taking care of that territory matter for serious consideration, in carving out and putting it to its best use than any Gove.rn­ new colonies, that they should not be mad~ too ment in the capital of the empire 16,000 miles lar~e but limited to manageable proportwns. away. I hope this address will be carried w: 'ha\e in Queensland an example of the unanimously, and in a manner that will show the difiiculties that may arise where that has not.been Home Government and the people of the colony considered. Our territory is too large, and.Is not als,, that the hearts of the members of this in mana~eable proportions. If it were cut m two Parliament are in the address. both No~th and South would be benefited by the division. \Vhen federation took place in the United Mr. POWERS said : Mr. Speaker,-As a States some of the colonies were very large and some Queenslander I wish to say a few words on this very small; no alteration has taken pla;ce since address. I have never spoken yet on the then those sr.ates that were large are still large, question of federation, because I have never had and those that were small are still small. I look a chance; but whatever I can do to aRSist the upon the action that is being take;n by the House cause of federation, either in this House or out to-night as a step towards.federatwn .. The more of it, I shall do most heartily. So far as assisting colonies we have possessmg respon~Ible govern· Western Australian [8 AUGUST.] Constitution. 1057

ment, the sooner shall we prog-ress to that state amount of pres~ure to be brought to hear on the of affairs which federation will bring about. It British Government to grant responsible govern­ h_as been atiked what is the mcming- of federa­ ment to \V estern Au,trct!Lt. It is hastening the twn? I look upon federation as the welding cause of federation. .'\[ v hon friend the member together of a nu m her of colonies, or in the ~tbstract for Barcoo said the '>tli"er night, that he wished the welding together of a number of separate some cahtinit,y wonld Ot'f~nr to A.ustralia, as he independent entities into one whole. I trust tlmt was certnin it would have the effec:t of bringing before many years we shall see that federation uf her colonir·-; together, bnt this is smnething better the Au·,tralasian colonies from which we exped than a ccch>mitv. This is a sentiment that will very great results. I am very glad indeed show that Jh1stralasia is unanimous and that to see that both sides of the House are it will act nnanimomly, and this action will so cordially supporting the motion under con­ have the effect of strengthening the bonds of sideration, and, with the hon. member for union that at present exist betwe-.,n the colonies Townsville, I trust that when another attempt There is one great advantage to be gained. I is made to gain for the North of Qneensbnd the ttm glad to see that New South \Vales is taking same blesding which '\Ve are no'v endc~tvouring the lead in the matter, because up to the present to assist ·western Australia to obtain, the time she has stood out from the :B'ederal Council, House will be quite as unanimous in supportin•" and we have lost the aid of some of the most able a motion of that kind. Them can be no doubt statesmen who could give us assistance in the that the result would be a benefit to both the direction of federation. The sooner that federtt­ Northern and the Southern portions of Queens­ tion takes place the better, because difficulties land. Instead of working ag-ains~ one nnothcr, will arise in the futurJ that must be confronted. they would work together, nnd their government Now, while we are young i" the time for federa­ as separate colonie~ would be n,ore beneficial to tion, and I hope to live to see the day when we both than their continuance as one <'olony >~S at shall have a federal parli:1ment of Australasia. pre,ent could posc~.ibly be~ I am sure that the I am sure that all Australians have aspirations North and Sonth would cordially paf' any in that clirection. I, for one, have that feeling. measure that would be for their recipror.~I ad­ I do not mean only Australians by birth. vantage. The history of se]mration in this I am Austmlian by birth, but everyone who colony has been such :ts to inspire a hope that comes to this country and makes it a home when the ::\forth obta.ins separation it will pro­ is equally rm Australian. \Ve have ~t!l sprung gres8 five times tts much as it would under the from a great race, the greatest race that the present regime. I trust that the people of world has ever seen, 'tine! here we may plant one \V"estern Australia will gain their object, and of the grecttht branches of civilisation that has t~at the blessing of constitutional government e ver beep known. \V e can build up a great will be granted to them without delay. nation, because we contain the germs of a great The POST:\IASTER-GENERAL said: 1\Ir. nation, and I trust the time is not far distant Speaker,-I trust I may be pardoned for ex­ when we shall have a federal parliament of Aus­ pressing a hope that we may hn ve no more tralasia. It does not require any expression of speeches in this discussion o'n the subject of opinion on my part to say that this address sha_ll sep~tration. Our Northern friends may hctYe h>1ve my hearty support. I am sure that It m~tny claims, but this is not the time for will be taken up most cordially by the whole bringing them before the House. I do ex­ of the colony, and by the people of all the press a hope that we shall be unanimous, .1r. Speaker,-It is to There is no doubt that the time has arrived when be hoped that the \Vestern Australians will get Western Australia should have re.sponsible ~o­ po•.,ession of some of our Han.-,x>·ds published vernment. There is one thing that is fresh bin to-morrow, ttnd know that the members of this the minds of all colonists of long standina­ House are thoroughly united on this question. the great progress that has been made in e~ch Not one member has spoken against the people of the colonies under responsible government. of \Vestern Australia getting the same constitu­ There is one thing- that we have not had under tion as our own. I am very sorry to think there responsible gov<>rnment. and I am sure we shctll are some members who cannot get up to speak never have it, and that is great discontent among on any occasion \vithout dragging in the black~ the people. What was the Ballarat riot brought labour-sepantion-question. 'l'hey do not men­ about by? If there hctd bron r0sponsible govern­ tion black labour but they cannot speak with­ ment in Victoria we should never h:we had that out mentioning sepftration. The qnestinn befor-e riot, which was bronght al>out by offici~tldom. ns is not separation but federation. \Ve have four If Victoria had been under r~:->.:pon~ihlc ~·overn­ colonie~ in the group posse'"·.ing constitutional ment thPn, many va1ua.ble lives wcnld have been Government. \Ve h~tve one colony that does not saved and much ill-fe··ling avoiderL I believe, l''"'ess it. That colony may be called a Crown however, that after all, like many acts of Provi­ colony. \V c. know th,tt we wish that colony to dence, that \V:1S bronght aJlOnt for the g\)od of __ \._us­ posse:::;s the same priv-ilese':l as we po;;;sess, and tralia. Experience w~ts gained then that has been w• hope that it will get them; and for what theguidingstarnf Au~tr.tlin,eversince,and we have re"·.rms? \V e know very well thctt the great stettdily gone forward until we can govern our­ number of Ql!eensL.tnders, Victodctns, and New selves as well as any nation in the world. South \Vale· people possess a lctrge quantity of I am pleased to find that it requires a certain pastoral land in \Vestern Australia, in th~ 1889-3 V 1058 Western Australian [ASSEMBLY.] Constitution. vicinity of Cambridge Gulf. I,arge goldfields room and forgetting to have a band in it. I have been opened up, and, I believe, when the hope the Government at home will grant to !ederal Oonncil sat,. the idea was that Albany, \Vestern Australia the form of Government m \Vestern Anstraha, should be in the same which we rtre desirous it should have. We have position as Thnrsday Island, inNorth A nstmlia. se-en the euccc'isit _ from a House of Commons would come out here they few of thern, and Australian governm·s have gnne won1d see the great progrr.:;;s that has bec:.n rnacle, homfl and instrnctensti­ to go to the old country and '' what is tuted in Great Britain, or any Government that doing there. I admired the Gladstone there, may follow it, have not the same knowledge of ,,nd I admire the Gladstone we have on Australian matters that we po3'less, and, there­ this side of the House. I rtdrnired Lord fore, thPy should give wrtf to us to a certain Randolph Churchill, rtnd we have our Ran­ extent. The \Vestern _.\ustra!ians have large dolph Olmrchill on the other side of the gold and coal fields. They have an immense House, the Premier. If we could ge.t an inter­ territory, and they have men with brains sufficient change of members from the other side of the to govern their own colony, and why should the world, :-,ne! rts rrmny of us as could make it con­ four colonies with responsible government allow venient went home, it would unite us to­ the fifth colony to stand out? \Ve want to get gether in f\ way we have no idea of. that colony in to say that Austr.tlia is one. \Ve I believe this di,;cussion will show the legis­ want to see five st ,rs on the Australian flag. I bture at home that, while we have every do not know whether vou include l'\ew Zuland; respect for them, we bav·e our own opinions. I but we want the island continent as one was much taken with the remarks of a country­ whole. \Ve may differ politically, onr tariffs man of mine, tbe hon. member for Townsville, 1nay vary, but in rnauy ways \Ye hope we 1\Ir. Philp, who put the matter in a way thnt a may not differ, and thrtt we may be one in Scetchman generally does. If there is anything he wart,, to demrtnr! from anyone, he does not many n1a.tters-one in defence, one in unit-.-,~, and one in loyalty towards the throne ;,f demand it in a boastful manner, but with a Gre>~t Britain. I did not intend to occupy ,~o determination that wearies one, and which will much.of the time of the House, but I feel strongly ultinmtely carry the day. I simply wish to on thrs matter. I have been in IYectern An,­ remind the hrm. member for Townsville that tralia, :md have seen the great future of the when the people there are ;,s unitecl for separa­ colony. They possess th•· firs~ port of call from tion as this House is to·night in favour of Great Britain: they are constructing raihvays federation, no rloubt if they continue t0 agitate all over their colony, and we ,;lJOuld do all ,: e in a peaceful way, with such a lecccler as the can to assist them. IV e are the youngect colony hon. member- for 'fownsville, they cannot but n the group pm,.;;;es~ing constitutional govern~ succeed in their dem:cnd. I hope that this ment, but we will give way to her, and as,ist her address will be successful, and that our action with all our power to become the vonngest will have the effect of furthering the interests of constitutionally governed colony of the" Austra­ \Vestern Australia. lian grou-p. Mr. SAYERS said: Mr. Speaker,-! have l\Ir. AGNEIV said: Mr. Speaker,-I rise only listened with pleasure to the unanimous opinion for the purpose of stating my hearty approv .t! of of both sirles of the House in regard to giving a the acbon of the Government in introducing constitution to Western Australia. I quite agree this measure, find I think that the unanimous with what has fllllen from various speakers both expression of opinion that has been given in this upon this subject and upon that of federation, and House will be a source of very great pleasnre to I should not even have spoken had it not been for the people of \V estern Austra!irt. It wili >tleo some remarks which fell from some hon. members convey to the minds of the English peopl~, and on the other side. I think the question of the the Government in Downing street, the unani­ separation of l'\orth Queensland should have mous desire that exists throughout Queensland, been rt!lowcd to lie dormant when a matter of at all events, that the form of government this kind is heinrr discuP ed. It has be.m said which has been granted to ns, and has that the cases of\Vestern Australia and North been so successfnl here, shall also be granted Queensland are very nearly parallel. I say that to IVestern Anstralifl. I do not know any is not the case. \V e are supporting this rtddress arg~nnent that hrts been raised against the appli­ because it is the unanimons wish of \Vestern catiOn of IVestern Austmlia, in the British Australia that they slwuld have responsible Parliament, which was not ach-anced against the government, and be endowed with the same granting of responsible govemment to this privileges as the rest of Australia. \Ve are colony. No form of government will be satis­ living under responsible government. l\I embers factory which will not give a colony control over are sent to this House from the North, and ts own lands, It is like a man erecting a ball- they ,,it upon both sides of the House. Members Western Australian [8 AuGusT.] Constitution. 1059 who support separation have told us that :nti~h grounds. The people in favour of bhtck lalltt is one of the reasons why I Victori<~ or Qneenshtnd, the people in just should let \Vestern Australia have responsible indignntinn prott 3ted against the . sh_i pping of government-that the people would be able to the criminal rubbish of Great Bntam to the prevent the influx of Chinese or any other shores of that grand country. I remember a aliens into that colony. I should not he~ve spoken meeting presided over by a ma1_1 who aft_er­ upon the matter if the separation question had wards took a considerable part m Australian not been introduced into it. I ''"m "'ery sorry it affair.•, a meeting addressed by the Hon. Robert has been. Lowe, now Lord Sherbroke, and by the present Prfmier of N AW South \Vales, Sir Henry Parkes, Mr. O'SULLIVAiif said: Mr. Spe:-tker,-I then in a humble position, and just budd~ng must join in the unanimity that is going on with into politiwllife. I remember on that occasiOn rei)ard to \Yestern Australia ; still if we are the indignant protest which the people of New go1ng to ask the Government of England to give South \Y ales milde to the iuteoduction of the freedom tu \Yestern Austmli>t we ma'.- a, well crimimtl popuhttion of Great Britain. to_ their add another word to the address and include shorf.s. Kothing could be more gratifymg to Ireland. I do not wish to throw a firebrand into me, towards the clo:-e of a life of which nearly the discus;ion, and I m 'Y s,ty I am with those forty-one years have been uninterruptedly sp~nt who have alre tdy spoken in bvour of freedom in Anstmlia, than to have an oppnrtumty for \Yes tern Austmlia, But I am generous in the of speakitw in this Legic;latnre of Queens­ matter and wi.,h for freedom for all. I agree with land on a ",1nestion of the admission to the the hon. member fur Bowen that small states privileges we enjoy of the last member of the govern them>elv•'s best, and I can assure him that Au-:tralian group. The colony, of \yest;;rn any time he wishes to go in for separation for the Australia has been ton long the poor sister - North I will be with him, and I think I made the Cinderella living on the dust heap of ~he that promise here before. The reason I get up dominion of a Crown colony. I may mentwn to propose the addition of these two little words tLat the hon. member for Cairns has put me in "and Ireland" is ;,imply this: The Post m a .ter­ possec.,iun of a fact bearing upon this. \Vhenhe General said he w.ts not sorry that the feeling \V 1s visiting :B~reemn..ntle, ten years ago, an or wish for self-governrnent arnongst the Austra­ a<.;citlent occunci through blasting by which a lian colonit•, was so marked, and particularly boy sw•taincd serious injurks, and the hon. at one time in Victoria, when they were on the mtimber saw this lad lying in a cart with his point of going in for a rebellion wich only 10,000 blood dripping to the ground, and when he asked people. \Vestern Au,tralia is pretty much in why the boy was not taken to the _hospital-t\:ere the same state at the present time, and all the was no free hospital, only an hospital for conviCts other colonies are coming generously to her aid. -the answe1' gi,·en was that a telegram had Now, what I want to point out is thrrt nothin:; been sent to Perth ft)r instructions. Could there can be said of Vict.oria or \Vhtern Australia be a more graphic commentary upon the present that does not apply with equal force to Ireland. system than th>~t? l look forward to the creation They have hrrd to fight there, and their popula­ ,)f a '"reat Australia in the future, and I believe tion is larger than the population of the whole we ,]~all see realised what was said more than of the Australian colonies together, and sixty ;c·ears ago by one of the greatetJt poets of the everything necesc:try to show a wish for English race, when he spoke of- separatinn has been shown by that country. " The pri(lc to re~u an independent shed, The hon. memher for Charters Towers, Mr. And give the lip~ they love unborrowcd bread; Sayers, says that he supports this motion because And see a la.nd, from shadowy forest won, · the people of \Vestern Australh wish for Iu vouth and bc:tutv \vodrled to the sun, responsible government, and I call upon him "\Vith laws from Gotvhic bon(lage burst, And Church by chnrtcrcflpriesthood unaccursed­ to vote for the inclusion of Ireland, bcc"'nse Till Anstralasi.a rise, \Vit-h rta.g unfurled, the people there wish it. The hon. member for A ne'v Britannia in a.nothcr world." Ipswich says with great joy that this will dnw Mr. BUCKLAND said: Mr. Speaker,-I us nearer to the mother country, cmd I say it congratulate the leader of the Government would draw Ireland nearer to the mother country. upon introdncing this addrw.. s to Her iYiajesty, If he says there is G ladstone on one side and and upon the manner in which it has been Churchill on tqe other, I say there should be re~eiverl by both sides of tlte House. Al­ Parnell on the third. I am quite sure they thmwh I cannot chtim to be a native, I have would agree wonderfully, and they are three been" !on:; enough in the colony to be able very able men, more so thnn we find in the'e to S<'Y that I am an A1mtralian, and that places. There is no use in my dela,-ing the my sympathic' are entirely Australi>;m ; and I matter, and it is not worth v· hile falliu:; out only hope that the presentation _of this add:ess for the sake of putting in the few word I will lmve the effect of obtaimng re,ponsible mentioned. government for \Vestern Australia. The Nlinis­ Mr. BARLOW said: Mr. Speaker,-I did not ter for Mine> and 'IVmks hit the ri:;ht nail on the intend to address the Hon-.:9 upon this qum;tion; head when he said th:1t without giving the but sr.eing thn,t so 1na.ny hon. mf'm:J~._ts hnve \Vest ern Australian Government full control over spoken upon what I call a gTeat natinrml oceasion the Lnds of the nlony it will be usele~• to give -a great occa:·'inn that will li vr in the hi::;tory of them re ;ponsible government at all. It is evident Australia--I must express my n·:;ret that the from whe.t I have read during the last two or three question of :01 ortheru separation, >end that persons in Lomlon and other· large question to which I will not particubrly in the old country are anxious to see large have been introduced. I regret that on an nn1ubers of the pauper population of En>;"land occasion like this, vvhen we are seeking to obtain sent ont to \Yestern Austr:tlia. I think we ought for \Vestern Australia a measure of self-gO\ern­ to prote,,t against anything of- that sort, and ment, such questions should be introduced. Ou insist that Western Australia should h:we full 1060 Western Australian [ASSEMBLY.] Constitution-

control over its lands, the same as we have as the one before us, It has merely been in Queensland. \V e should also as colonists, touched upon. The number of people to be as far as possible, protest against any pos­ benefited by conferring responsible government sibility of the introduction of Chinese or on \V est ern A nstralia is estimated at 40,000. coolies from the eastern parts of the world. \V ell, there are 70,000 people in North Queens­ The Postmaster-General c·xprec• ,ed his belief that land, and out of those 70,000, there are, at least, the Ballarat riots would never have occurn·J if 40,000 who would like, if it were pos;;ible, to Victoria at that time had had responsible manage their own affairs. I know it is opposed government. I quite agree with him. I wa:· in by some hon. members for purely local reasons, that colony at the time of the riot•<, although not bnt it cannot be denied that the interests of present on the occasion. But I had been there North Queensland would be benefited by separa­ previously, and I can bear witness to the tion. As to those hon. members, and others arbitrary way in which Sir Charles Hotham who oppose it, we separationists look upon carried out the collection of the licenses. The them as repre.,entatives, as it were, of the working diggers were pursued at the point Southern garrison, not as representatives of the of the bayonet, and in many instances on material interests of North Queensland. It is the very day they landed at the diggings, just possible that the feeling which animates before they had time to get their liceURes, those 40,000 persons in the North might not have they were arrested, taken before the court, and arisen bar! there been fewer members of the stamp fined. There was no wonder, under such cir­ of the hon. member for Ipswich. The other hon. cumstances, that the Ballarat riots occurred. member who criticised this mild expression I sincerely trust that the addre,s which is evi­ of opinion about separation was the hon. dently about to be carried in this Assembly, and member for Charters Towers, J\fr. Sayers, which was carried unanimously yesterday in who, I may observe, speaks on every sub­ the New South \Vak; A%embly; \Vil! hHve the ject that is introduced into the House. I effect of granting responsible government at a am not going to give an opinion as to the very early date to that portion of the continent worth of what he says; that is for the House to known as Western Australia. I hope I shallli ve judge. But he b not chary of speech, and he to see the day when the whole of Australia is seems to cmuider it his business apparently, not federated into one grand colony. I believe that only to look after the interests of the Towers­ will Le the case before many years, and that the which I imagine is quite sufficient for him-not federation will include, not onlv the continental only to look after his own side, hut actually to colonies, but Tasmania and New Zealand as tak"e us in charge also, and to tell us what we well. I congratulty for what separationists who have spoken, upon takmg this reason; it is not apparent to others, although it happy opportunity of putting their grievanc:s may be to himself-to take upon himself the fmward, and getting them into Hm,,ard m duty of censor of hon. members on this side. I the hope that they may be read very largely cannot see any reason for his criticisms. Allu­ in the old country. Bnt I deem it my duty, as sion to the question of sep

when Townsville was unanimous the House self-government, under which our material prosperity should consider their appeal; but I would has been increased and our loyalt.y and devotion to Your :Maje~ty hnve continued unabated, feeling like the country and the Imperial authorities that the same result will follmv the granting of to know that Townsville is a very small spot in similar pmvers to our fellow-eoloni1:lts in Western North Queensland, anrl is exceeded in popula­ Australia, "\VC humbly pray that Your JUajesty will tion by ,,ther parts of X orth Queensland, such as be pleased to spcfhe class of labour adopted by this House. that \V estern Australia ic trying to keep out. I QueJtion put and passed. am sure that when the labour question is set at Hoxot:RABLE 1\IE}!BERS on both sides : Hear, rest the people \\ill then be unanimons in asking for sepamtion, but they will oppose that agitation heart as long as it is headed, as it is now, by the black The PRE:YIIER said: Mr. Speaker,-I beg labour party. To veri£~· ll'hat I am saying, if to move that you do present the address, as anv peroons doubt my statement a bout black adopted by this House, to His Excellency the labour, let them look at the speeches delivered Govemorfor transmission to Her Majesty. in this House on that question, and they will Question put and passed. find that the very members who adVO<'>~te separa­ The HoN. Sm S. W. G RIFFITH said : Mr. tion now, because their remark,; are likely to Speaker,-I wish to sugg~st to the Premier that be read in the old country, are the very men the address be transmitted by cable. who delivered the most able speeches in sup­ port of black labour for K orth Queensland. It The PREMIER said: Mr. Speaker,-I may was not my intention, JYir. Speaker, to have mention that immediate steps will be taken spoken on this subject, because it has been so to-morrow nwrning-it is rather too late to-night thoroughly thrashed out, and also because I am -to have the address cabled through his thoroughly in accord with the leaders of the Excellency to the Secretary of State for the House as far as the desires of \V estern Australia Colonies, for presentation to Her Majesty. I are concerned. But I must refer to another beg to move that thie Hou&e do now adjourn. point. I believe that the Question of re­ I think we have done a very good night's work. ts been watched with greater interest in the The House adjourned at ten minutes to Northern portion of the colony than it has been 10 o'clock. in the South, becau,,e it affects 'Northern int.erests far more than it does Southern interests, for this reason : As I indica.ted before, the great trouble we see in the future for \Vestern Australia, in the event of their not getting responsible government is the labour question, and we are sure that th~ princip~l part of that great trouble will take place in the northern part of that great colony. \Ve were also told this evening that the northern p.ortion of South Australia is in danger from the s>tme cause; therefore it was only natural that the people of North Queemland were the fiBt to loo~ upon this matter as one likely to very senomly affect them. I shall not detain the House any longer; I only wish to place on record the fact that the majorityof thepeopleofNorth Queensland are strongly opposed to separation, and also to congratulate separationist members on l;aving cleverly introduced by a side wind the subject of separation into a debate that is likely to be read in the old country. Mr. M_\.CFARLANE said: Mr. Speaker,-! rise to make an explanation. It has bren said that I stated that \Yhen Townsville was unanimous on the separation questiol'l their appectl should be considered. \Vhat I said, or intended to say, was that when the North was unanimous their appeal should he considered. Question put and passed. On the motion of the PREMIER, the address was read by the Clerk, as follows :- To THE QUERN'"i MOST EXCELLENT :\fA.,JESTY, May it Please Your Majesty: We, Your I\Iajesty's loyal and dutiful subjects the members of the Legislative Assembly of QueenSland: in. Parli<:tmentassmnbled, humbly a,pproach Your JfajeE~ty w1th every assurance of onr devotion to Your 1fajco;;;ty's Crown and person: Having in common 1vith the other Australian c lonies long enjoyed the advantages of