Tuesday Volume 683 3 November 2020 No. 128

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 3 November 2020 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2020 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 141 3 NOVEMBER 2020 142

The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice House of Commons (Robert Buckland): Naturally, I do not disclose the details of private conversations I have with Cabinet Tuesday 3 November 2020 colleagues, but they, and everybody else who cares to listen, should be in no doubt that I am, and will continue The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock to be, a very active Lord Chancellor in supporting the rule of law, using the authority of my office to advise, to PRAYERS warn and to encourage. I am absolutely committed, under the oath I took, to my constitutional duty to [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] uphold the rule of law. Virtual participation in proceedings commenced (Order, 4 June). Alison Thewliss: The Lord Chancellor said he would [NB: [V] denotes a Member participating virtually.] resign if he saw the rule of law being broken in a way that he found unacceptable. Ten days ago, more than 800 of some of the most senior legal figures across the Oral Answers to Questions UK wrote to the Prime Minister stating that attacks on the legal profession by the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary undermine the rule of law. When he JUSTICE read that letter and saw the signatories, did he think things had got to the stage of being unacceptable? The Secretary of State was asked— Magistrates: Mandatory Retirement Age Robert Buckland: The hon. Lady is eliding two issues. I was talking in early September about the United Edward Timpson (Eddisbury) (Con): What plans he Kingdom (Internal Market) Bill. Since then, the has to raise the mandatory retirement age for magistrates. Government made important concessions in this House [908299] to qualify the coming into force of those provisions, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the and set out examples where, to all intents and purposes, Home Department (Chris Philp): The Ministry of Justice the EU would have acted in clear bad faith. She is has been running a consultation on increasing the retirement eliding the two issues, I hope inadvertently. When it age for judges and magistrates. The consultation closed comes to defending the legal profession, I have already on 16 October. Over 1,000 responses were received and publicly stated my steadfast support for the profession we will respond formally very shortly. that I am honoured to be a part of. Edward Timpson: My hon. Friend is very aware of my John Nicolson [V]: Former Supreme Court Justice private Member’s Bill to raise the retirement age of Lord Dyson described the Government’s toxic rhetoric magistrates to 75, which has been bumbling along the on the legal profession as “irresponsible”, “dangerous” bottom of the Friday Order Paper for a couple of and “inflammatory,” and months now. Bearing in mind that his own consultation “the language of a demagogue.” on this increasingly urgent matter closed over two weeks The former Director of Public Prosecutions, ago, is he able to give me and many hundreds of Lord Macdonald, said the Government’s language is magistrates, who have been forced to give up dispensing indecent and typifies justice at a time when we can least afford to lose them, some hope that he will be able to legislate at the earliest “precisely this sort of ugly authoritarianism that the rule of law is called upon to counter.” opportunity, either through my Bill or through other means, so we can get that on the statute book as soon as What discussions has the Lord Chancellor had with the we can? Prime Minister and the Home Secretary about those very serious allegations from senior lawyers? Chris Philp: My hon. Friend is quite right. We are losing something like 1,000 magistrates a year as they Robert Buckland: As I said in response to the previous turn 70, often very experienced magistrates who still question, I do not disclose details of discussions I have have a great deal to offer the justice system. The consultation with Cabinet colleagues. However, I can reassure the had two options: raising the age to 72 or to 75. I hon. Gentleman and everybody else that people should strongly commend my hon. Friend for his patience, be in no doubt about my steadfast defence not just of persistence and perseverance in trying to get his private the judiciary but of an independent legal profession. We Member’s Bill through, often in the face of somewhat have, of course, seen criticism of lawyers throughout unfortunate headwinds, on private Members’ Bill Fridays. the ages. I respect the views of members of my profession, This is an urgent issue. As soon as we have formulated a but we should put things into their full context. response to the consultation, we will certainly be looking to legislate via whatever vehicle is available as quickly as Sir Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): I we possibly can. welcome what the Lord Chancellor said about defending The Rule of Law the legal profession and I join him in that. It is an honourable profession and I have always found that Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP): What those I dealt with at the Bar and solicitors generally left discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues on their politics behind when they went to argue the case upholding the rule of law. [908300] for their client, which they must do without fear or John Nicolson (Ochil and South Perthshire) (SNP): favour. Equally, will he recognise that when he and I What discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues were doing an awful lot of legal aid work in practice, the on upholding the rule of law. [908302] former leader of the Labour party and then Prime Minister 143 Oral Answers 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 144 was describing legal aid lawyers as fat cats? No one has within the criminal process. Therefore, I think it is best entirely clean hands on this and perhaps we all ought to not to try to draw direct links at this stage without moderate our language when dealing with the professions. knowing more about the evidence, but I reassure her that I will continue to do everything I can to make sure Robert Buckland: The Chair of the Justice Committee that the tone of the debate is right and that passions are puts the matter into its fullest context. Sadly, from cooled when it comes to talking about the important Shakespeare onwards, and probably before, lawyers have role of lawyers. come in for criticism. The question is how far that goes. We live in a lively democracy and none of us is above Joanna Cherry: I reiterate that I am not asking the criticism, but I say to him that in all my years in Lord Chancellor for the precise details of conversations practice, I did precisely what he did, which was to leave or, indeed, to comment on an ongoing case. I am asking my politics at home whenever I went into chambers or him about the general advice that he has given to his into the courtroom. colleagues in relation to his duties and responsibilities regarding the rule of law, because, after the Home Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): Our country is Secretary’s speech, the Prime Minister went even further a country that prides itself on the rule of law. Without in his conference speech, declaring that he would prevent lawyers, the rule of law would collapse. In recent weeks, “the whole criminal justice system from being hamstrung by…lefty the Home Secretary and the Prime Minister have launched human rights lawyers and other do-gooders.” repeated attacks on lawyers representing asylum seekers. I ask the Lord Chancellor again: are newspaper reports Even after a man launched a knife attack on an immigration that he spoke with the Prime Minister in advance of solicitor days after the Home Secretary condemned that speech correct? And did he tell the Prime Minister “activist lawyers”, the Government continue to pour about the attack on the immigration lawyers’ offices petrol on the fire. Does the Lord Chancellor agree with and the warnings from counter-terrorism police to the his colleagues’ characterisation of legal professionals as Home Secretary about the dangers of inflammatory “activist lawyers”, or does he have the courage to publicly language against lawyers? condemn that vile rhetoric? Robert Buckland: I can assure the hon. and learned Robert Buckland: The right hon. Gentleman will Lady that the information about the serious allegations know that on two occasions in public forums, I have about the attack has been communicated to the appropriate made my defence of lawyers very clear and made it clear Ministers and that everything that I have done and will that physical and verbal attacks and the other types of continue to do is entirely consistent with my duty. threat that we might see are entirely unacceptable. He Although, sadly, it might be the province of previous talks rightly about a very serious case that is ongoing—I and current Prime Ministers to make provocative and do not think it would be right for me to comment sometimes lively comments about the legal profession, directly upon it—but we all know the context within it is not the job of the Lord Chancellor to police every which we operate. I can assure him that I will continue jot and tittle. I will continue to make sure that we get the in my resolute defence of lawyers. I will say this: I think tone of the debate right and that where we can improve there are times when there is a legitimate debate to be on our language, we will do so. had, and I firmly believe that lawyers who are passionate Reducing Reoffending about politics are best advised, if they wish to pursue politics, to do as he and I did, which is to get elected and Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con): What steps his pursue politics here or in other democratic forums. Department is taking to reduce reoffending. [908301] Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP) [V]: Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con): What steps The Home Secretary’s remit includes responsibility for his Department is taking to reduce reoffending. [908308] making sure that all our communities are kept safe and secure. On 7 September, a man wielding a knife entered Tom Hunt (Ipswich) (Con): What steps his Department an immigration lawyers’ office in London and launched is taking to reduce reoffending. [908313] a violent, racist attack. In mid-September,counter-terrorist police from SO15 warned the Home Secretary that it Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Con): What was suspected that a far-right extremist had attempted steps his Department is taking to reduce reoffending. to carry out a terrorist attack at a solicitors’ firm in [908317] London, yet in early October at the Tory party conference, she went on to intensify her anti-lawyer rhetoric. I am Shaun Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Con): What not asking the Lord Chancellor to disclose the precise steps his Department is taking to reduce reoffending. details of private conversations, but can he confirm [908324] newspaper reports that prior to her speech, he warned Scott Benton (Blackpool South) (Con): What steps the Home Secretary against using this sort of language? his Department is taking to reduce reoffending. [908326] If she will not listen to him, will he consider his position? Virginia Crosbie (Ynys Môn) (Con): What steps his Robert Buckland: I am grateful to the hon. and learned Department is taking to reduce reoffending. [908329] Lady for the way in which she put her question, but I have to repeat again that it would be invidious of me to The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice repeat private conversations. She knows that I have (Robert Buckland): Reoffending is a complex issue, so been publicly on the record twice in the last month we need to take a wide-ranging approach. That is why making my position very clear and condemning attacks. we will invest £20 million in the prison leavers project to I think she would agree that we all need to be careful, as test new solutions. We are also making sure that our lawyers, about a matter that is currently sub judice and new prisons have rehabilitation right at their heart. Our 145 Oral Answers 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 146 programme to build 10,000 additional places, plus two system allows the removal of privileges, stoppage of new jails at Wellingborough and Glen Parva, will deliver earnings and confinement to cell, and more serious improved security and better training facilities to help breaches can be referred to the independent adjudicator, offenders to find employment on release. but some crimes committed in prison are clearly so serious that governors will continue to refer those matters Karl McCartney [V]: May I be the first of the magnificent to the police. seven to thank my right hon. and learned Friend for that answer? Reoffending rates have historically been Jack Lopresti: Does my right hon. and learned Friend too high, as many of us are aware from our time in agree that prison education in itself is crucial to reducing court as advocates or on the magistrates bench. Does he reoffending? agree that working with organisations and businesses such as the Gelder Group at HMP Lincoln, which has Robert Buckland: My hon. Friend makes an important been involved in delivering meaningful training courses point, because the evidence is that the completion of to equip those spending time at Her Majesty’s pleasure any prison education reduces reoffending by 7.5%. We with useful skills, is the right way to provide inmates plan to strengthen rehabilitation further by creating a with a positive restart to their lives after jail time? prisoner education service that will be focused on work- based training and skills. The Prison Service’s new Robert Buckland: My hon. Friend, who has considerable future network is doing great work to build partnerships experience of the justice system in a former capacity, is between prisons and employers to ensure that prisoners right to highlight the work of organisations such as the are job ready on release. Gelder Group and its great work in delivering training to prisoners in his county. He is also right to identify Shaun Bailey: Reoffending rates in the Black Country how transformative training and work can be for serving currently stand at around 30%, and it is clear that we prisoners and those who are released, which will take a need to take a local stakeholder approach. What work is cross-government approach as well. I was delighted to my right hon. and learned Friend doing with local hear recently about the great work of Agile Homes at stakeholders in the Black Country to ensure that we can Her Majesty’s Prison Leyhill, which is not only training bring reoffending down? Will he meet me to discuss a men to build homes but helping them to save for their long-term strategy to tackle reoffending in the Black own homes in future through work. Country? Robert Buckland: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, Stephen Hammond: I thank my right hon. and learned who speaks with knowledge on this subject, and I Friend for his commitment to the investment in the would like to thank him and the Mayor, Andy Street, prison leavers scheme. He will know, however, that not for their continued work on helping to tackle reoffending. all schemes provide rehabilitation and training. Some We know that offenders typically have complex needs, schemes, such as the so-called Nottingham Knockers and the community sentence treatment requirement scheme, send out men and ladies who are released programme, which went live in the Black Country in prisoners to sell overpriced goods to embarrassed customers, June this year, aims to improve access to appropriate providing humiliation but no training. Will he make mental health and substance misuse services as part of sure that the investment in the prison leavers scheme community sentences. Of course I would be happy to has the element of training and rehabilitation that is meet my hon. Friend to discuss this and other issues needed, so that ex-prisoners can have successful lives relevant to West Bromwich in detail. thereafter? Scott Benton: What assessment has my right hon. and Robert Buckland: My hon. Friend makes a powerful learned Friend made of the likely impact of the reduction point. Without that specialist support, there is a real of rehabilitation periods on reducing reoffending? problem that such matters might become counterproductive. Nottingham Knockers-type activities, as described, are Robert Buckland: My hon. Friend speaks with continuing not part of a recognised rehabilitative scheme, so I urge passion on behalf of his constituents in Blackpool, and the public to be vigilant. When it comes to authorised he knows that when it comes to improving rehabilitation, schemes, we anticipate spending more than £100 million employment is a key factor. Reducing the length of time a year on accredited services. that offences need to be disclosed for most jobs will improve job prospects for people with previous convictions. Tom Hunt: Social media use in prisons essentially It not only supports them but protects the public by amounts to prisoners reoffending before they have even decreasing the likelihood of reoffending, as there are been let out. It sends a poor message about our criminal few better crime-fighting tools than a regular pay cheque. justice system that could lead to more reoffending. Will the Lord Chancellor commit to doing everything he can Virginia Crosbie: In my constituency, Jackie Blackwell, to ensure that those who use social media in prison are the CEO of the citizens advice bureau, and her team robustly punished, and will he be open to increasing provide support for offenders and their families as they and reviewing sentences rather than just giving in-house transition out of prison. How is the Lord Chancellor slap-on-the-wrist punishments? supporting charities such as Fine Cell Work and the Irene Taylor Trust, and Jackie and her team, in this vital Robert Buckland: My hon. Friend is absolutely right work? to talk about the potential impact and the shock that can be caused to members of the public if people who Robert Buckland: I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for are known to be in custody are communicating and her passionate work in this area and her advocacy on using social media, and prisoners who break the rules behalf of the people of Anglesey-Ynys Môn. I recognise should face consequences. The internal adjudication the value that organisations such as the ones she mentions 147 Oral Answers 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 148 can bring to supporting offenders and families through scenario, and we took decisive action to implement a challenging time. Our grants programme supports the national restrictions to protect our staff, prisoners and piloting of new rehabilitation services and the further the NHS. As the pandemic continues, and in line with development of current programmes. I am delighted to the overall Government position, we have now developed be able to say that Ynys Môn’s citizens advice and the a more localised approach, which allows governors to Irene Taylor Trust have both benefited from our grants operate regimes that are proportionate to the risk in programme, and I look forward to seeing the contributions their local area. Throughout the pandemic, we have they make to supporting prison leavers as they make the continued to recognise the importance of prisoners’ transition towards a new life. wellbeing and mental health, and we have responded accordingly. We will be thinking again in line with the Sexual Offenders: Transfers to Open Prisons new national restrictions that will be imposed on Thursday.

Sarah Champion (Rotherham) (Lab): What risk Rosie Cooper [V]: Given the likelihood that prisoners assessments are conducted prior to the transfer of people will continue to suffer extreme restrictions, resulting in convicted of sexual offences to open prisons. [908303] possible damage to mental health, for the whole of this winter and beyond, will the Minister guarantee that The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lucy additional phone credit for prisoners and free access to Frazer): Access to open prison conditions is not a right, video calls for families will continue for the duration of and there is no automatic progression. It is based on a the pandemic? detailed risk assessment. To be considered for open conditions, an individual must generally have served Lucy Frazer: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for two to three years and have that time left to serve to the highlighting the measures we put in place during the earliest release. In addition, a thorough risk assessment last wave; as I said, we are very conscious of the impact must be completed, considering the likelihood of the on reduced liberties in prison. We did make available individual absconding and the risks to the public, as 1,200 handsets and £5 extra phone credit, and, as she well as whether they are overall suited to the open mentioned, we rolled out video calling. Of course, we estate. will continue to consider whether those are appropriate in the next phase of this pandemic. Sarah Champion [V]: I ask this question on behalf of my constituent, who I will call Elizabeth. For a decade, Ms Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab) [V]: Between today she was subjected to brutal abuse by a grooming gang in and Christmas, thousands of people will be released Rotherham. Because of her tenacity, she managed to from prison, many of whom will have spent the past six secure convictions, including one for an individual for months locked in cells for 23 hours a day, with education nine years for two counts of child rape against her. impossible, rehabilitation disrupted and mental health After two and a half years, she discovered that he had problems rising. They will be released with no job, been downgraded to an open prison. Neither Elizabeth money or second chance and an increased risk of nor the police were consulted about this or notified as reoffending. So, Minister, when will we have an action part of a risk-assessment process, so one wonders whether plan, learning the lessons from past months and providing it is just prison conduct that contributes to risk assessments. prisoners with support, which, in turn, keeps our More concerningly, he is potentially up for weekend communities safer? release, although that is not going to happen because of covid. In Elizabeth’s own words, how effective does the Lucy Frazer: I am grateful for the hon. Lady’s question, Minister think the release on temporary leave system is? but I would like to challenge her position, because we I would appreciate a direct answer. already have an action plan. We have had the roll-out of a national framework to position 3—many prisons are Lucy Frazer: I am very grateful to the hon. Lady for already operating that. It rolls out the lifting of a raising this important and tragic case. She has written number of restrictions, so that we have increased social to me about it, and I hope that she has had the content visits across the estate, as well as offender management of my letter back. I know that the service has already and a number of other measures. We are, of course, apologised to her constituent, and I apologise on its now reassessing the position and we will be having an behalf, for not contacting her before the referral to open action plan, following the imposition of further national conditions. The victim liaison officer has made the restrictions on Thursday. offender manager aware of conditions that should be imposed on any release on temporary licence and so those will be taken into account should there be any Illicit Substance Use in Prisons ROTL granted. I am happy to continue to discuss this case with the hon. Lady at any opportune moment. Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): What steps he is taking to improve the capability of prisons to test for the use of Covid-19 Lockdown in Prisons illicit substances among prisoners. [908305]

Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): What lessons his The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lucy Department has learned from the (a) implementation Frazer): My hon. Friend is right to highlight the impact and (b) effect of the covid-19 lockdown in prisons. of drugs in our prisons, because there is a link between [908304] drugs and violence and assaults. That is why we in Government are supporting the Prisons (Substance Testing) The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lucy Bill, promoted by my right hon. Friend the Member for Frazer): In March, we faced 2,500 to 3,500 deaths in our Chesham and Amersham (Dame Cheryl Gillan). The prisons, according to Public Health England’s worst-case Bill had its Second Reading last month and will ensure 149 Oral Answers 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 150 that we can extend the range of substances that can be Daniel Zeichner: We know that too often the courts tested automatically, so that we can respond quicker to are clogged up partly because too little has been done to new formulations of psychoactive substances. minimise crime in the first place, which is why it is astonishing that in Cambridgeshire the number of police Henry Smith [V]: I am grateful for that answer. What community support officers is to be halved, particularly support can be provided for prisoners to ensure that at a time when they have a key role to play in covid they can recover permanently from drugs misuse? compliance. Will the Minister join me in condemning those cuts and demanding that they be withdrawn? Lucy Frazer: We are taking a number of approaches, of which I shall name just one: the rolling out of the Alex Chalk: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for NHS Reconnect service, which ensures that those having his question, but I hope he will welcome the fact that treatment in prisons can continue that treatment when this Government are recruiting an additional 20,000 they go into the community on release. The service police officers. It is those officers who will crack down includes assistance in making referrals and also provides on crime and ensure that people who rob innocents and peer mentoring services. It will ensure that, as my hon. cause violence end up getting their just deserts. Friend said, offenders permanently stay off drugs on their release. Navendu Mishra: Court users deserve the fullest protection from covid while they access justice, as do Access to Justice the staff who serve them, yet there have been an alarming number of outbreaks at courts and tribunals throughout the country, including at Manchester magistrates court Bambos Charalambous (Enfield, Southgate) (Lab): and others near my constituency. Does the Minister What steps he is taking to help ensure access to justice. agree that by failing to consult properly with the staff [908306] union, the Public and Commercial Services Union, over risk assessments, the courts service risks making a bad Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) (Lab): What steps he is situation much worse? taking to help ensure access to justice. [908314] Alex Chalk: I pay tribute to the staff of Her Majesty’s Navendu Mishra (Stockport) (Lab): What steps he is Courts and Tribunals Service whom I had the privilege taking to help ensure access to justice. [908320] of meeting when I went to Isleworth Crown court. It is the staff who are keeping courts running in extremely difficult circumstances: they are the ones who have The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice ensured that the perspex is there, that the jury retirement (Alex Chalk): Access to justice is a fundamental right rooms are properly socially distanced and that the jury and the Government are committed to ensuring that assembly points are well administered. I pay tribute to individuals can get the timely support that they need to them for what they are doing, and it is a testament access the justice system. In 2018-19, we spent £1.7 billion to their achievements that the courts will continue to do on legal aid for those who needed it. In response to the what they do best: dispensing justice in our country. destruction caused by covid-19, we have introduced measures that include scheduling more than 100 additional Saturday court sittings each month; providing funding Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab) [V]: to not-for-profit providers of specialist legal advice, Equality before the law is a fundamental right, but for such as law centres; and rolling out the cloud video the vast majority of people in the country who are not platform to enable remote hearings in all civil, family eligible for legal aid, that right does not actually exist. and criminal courts. Facing a difficult winter, even greater numbers will find themselves trapped in the justice gap of being forced to choose between legal representation and the basic essentials, Bambos Charalambous: The Government have failed as 94% of working single parents—mainly women—already to provide any significant additional support for legal do. What is the Minister going to do to ensure that the aid practitioners. The breaking point for many firms is rights that we hold dear actually exist in practice? likely to come in 2021, especially as the volume of completions in the Crown court remains low. Many Alex Chalk: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right legal aid firms and practitioners urgently need financial that ensuring access to justice is of fundamental importance, support to survive, so will the Government announce which is why, when we saw that the law centres, for new measures to support legal aid lawyers over the example, were going to have difficulties during this second national lockdown? pandemic, we answered the call and provided them with the funding. I was also able to speak to a great number Alex Chalk: Legal aid lawyers do a magnificent job of of them to reassure them about the work that they were ensuring access to justice.I am pleased that the Government able to continue doing. That was the right response to have been able to roll out support through furlough and take, and we are proud of the actions that we took. so on, but it is also important that in this second lockdown the courts are continuing. It is really important to note that the magistrates courts are dealing with Court Delays: Covid-19 more cases than they are receiving, and the Government have accelerated CLAR 1, the first criminal legal aid Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): review, which means that defence solicitors, for example, If he will bring forward a strategy to support victims are being paid to review unused material—something affected by court delays as a result of the covid-19 that did not happen under a Labour Government. outbreak. [908307] 151 Oral Answers 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 152

Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) Rushanara Ali: I hope the Minister will meet with me (Lab): If he will bring forward a strategy to support as well to discuss this matter. The delays, as my colleagues victims affected by court delays as a result of the have already said, have meant that victims of serious covid-19 outbreak. [908309] violent crime, such as rape, sexual abuse and other kinds of crime, are facing a double threat: first of the Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab): If he crime and then of the delay. That is causing huge will bring forward a strategy to support victims affected trauma. In the context of half a million unheard cases, by court delays as a result of the covid-19 outbreak. can the Minister specifically state how many of the [908315] 200 additional court venues have been provided and how much additional funding has been provided to deal The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice with the additional crisis caused by coronavirus? (Alex Chalk): We continue to make significant progress on criminal courts’ recovery. Since August, magistrates Alex Chalk: Let me deal with this point about courts. courts have consistently completed more cases than Because so much money has gone into providing perspex they are receiving. In the Crown court, millions of and so on, the number of courtrooms available for trials pounds have been invested in perspex screens, technology is higher than the baseline. That is important. Even and Nightingale courts to enable thousands of hearings before this pandemic, we had increased by 50% the to be listed each week. Significant progress, too, has amount of funding that was going into rape support been made to accelerate the roll-out of the section 28 centres, because we recognised the importance of providing pre-recorded cross-examination service to support alleged that support. We will continue to support individuals victims to give their best evidence. through independent sexual violence advisers and through providing that capacity in our court system so that Chi Onwurah: Rape is a violent and devastating crime, victims can get the justice they deserve. putting enormous pressure on its victims, who may view the trial of their rapist as a second violation. Across the Peter Kyle (Hove) (Lab): The court backlog is not just north-east, rape victims are waiting months and months a number; it is a tragedy for every victim who is awaiting for their trials to start and Northumbria police and justice. The Tory PCC for Hertfordshire wrote to Ministers crime commissioner Kim McGuinness tells me that that back in June to say that victims were pulling out of is putting enormous strain on their mental health. What trials and that criminals were walking away scot-free as support is the Minister providing, specifically to victim a result. How many crimes need to go unpunished support organisations such as the sexual exploitation before Ministers will come before the House with a plan hub in my constituency, and what is he doing to make backed up by targets and resource so that criminals are sure that more trials can take place? brought to justice? Alex Chalk: I regret that the hon. Gentleman has not Alex Chalk: The hon. Lady is absolutely right to raise read the plan that has been published, because if he this point, and I am grateful to her for doing so. We take had, he would know that in the magistrates courts the this extremely seriously. Of the £76 million that we backlog is being eroded, because disposals have exceeded allocated to victims’ organisations, a full £20 million receipts since the end of July, and that the number of was rolled out through PCCs to provide the community trial courts is higher than the baseline. If he had read support that she refers to, but that did not emerge from the report, he would know that. This Government are a clear blue sky. We were also providing money for keeping courts running and ensuring that justice will be independent sexual violence advisers to support victims served. as they progress through the criminal justice system. The critical thing is to keep the courts going during this Courts: Three-tier Covid Levels pandemic. That is what we are doing when others might Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): What assessment not have done, and we are proud of what Her Majesty’s he has made of the effect of the Government’s three-tier Courts and Tribunals Service is providing. local covid-19 alert levels on the operation of the courts. Dame Diana Johnson [V]: In Hull North, levels of [908310] antisocial behaviour in areas such as Orchard Park, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Beverley Road, Pearson Park, Princes Avenue and Home Department (Chris Philp): We have made a very Kingswood have been growing, and the perpetrators careful assessment of the safety of all our court buildings. behave as if they were beyond the reach of the justice I am pleased to say that courts across the country are system and the law. What discussions has the Minister opening and operating regardless of the tier they may had with his counterpart in the Home Office about a have been in previously and regardless of the altered specific strategy for communities where antisocial behaviour circumstances that are commencing on Thursday. The is growing to work with victims affected by court delays, courts are open, they are operating, and justice is being and will he meet me to discuss what more can be done? done. Alex Chalk: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her Nick Smith: In firebreak Wales, the justice system has question. Let the message go out in Kingston upon had to operate under really difficult circumstances lately, Hull that people who want to perpetrate antisocial and I pay credit to those who have worked so hard to behaviour should understand that the courts are operating, adapt. However, figures shared with me by the chief that the police are there to make arrests and that justice constable in Gwent point to significant delays in first will be done. That is what is being delivered during this hearings and a 57% increase in witnesses being supported pandemic, thanks to the hard work of plenty of people. locally. To help deal with this, will the Government On her final point, of course, I would be delighted to prioritise hearings for the most serious crimes before meet her to discuss this matter further. they get lost in another backlog? 153 Oral Answers 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 154

Chris Philp: I share the hon. Gentleman’s thanks to England and Wales, and we are currently in the process HMCTS staff and the judiciary and magistrates who of allocating a further £2.5 million for this year to have been keeping our courts running in what have been improve women’s centres’ financial viability. difficult circumstances. The cases that are prioritised are decided by the judges, who take responsibility for Ellie Reeves [V]: There are over 2,200 more women in listing. However,cases such as domestic violence protection prison compared with 25 years ago, and 82% have been orders, which are often very urgent, are certainly being sentenced for non-violent offences. A second lockdown prioritised, and the most serious cases, particularly will hit them hard, so can the Minister confirm what where there are vulnerable victims—we have heard about steps are being taken to give women in prison virtual rape cases already this morning—are being listed at the access to their children? How many pregnant women earliest possible opportunity. are currently in custody? How many women have been As the Under-Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member released as part of the early release scheme? for Cheltenham (Alex Chalk), said, in the magistrates court we are now disposing of more cases than are Lucy Frazer: We are very conscious of the impact of being received. That has been the case since the end of lockdown on our female estate, and we will be looking July, so the outstanding caseload is coming down. As very carefully, as we look at the new framework for the for Crown court jury trials, we now have more Crown new provisions on Thursday, at how we can in particular court courtrooms for jury trials open and operating protect women in the female estate, recognising the than was the case before the pandemic, so we are significant mental health issues they face. We are very expecting similarly encouraging progress to start feeding conscious of the need to ensure family contact, and all through with regard to those trials as well. our female estate have access to virtual calls. The hon. Member is aware, I hope, of our recent mother and Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): In recent baby unit review in relation to operations to look after times we have seen outbreaks of covid in different pregnant women and women with young children on courts around the country, despite the claims and answers the estate. That is currently in a consultation phase. We to my parliamentary questions that everything possible have set out a number of measures, including personalised is being done to keep them safe. The Government have access and plans to help those across our female estate been found out and hit with fines by the Health and who are pregnant or who have dependants. Safety Executive for what can only be described as a Topical Questions catalogue of failures at Westminster magistrates court, including risk assessment found not to be suitable and sufficient. Then there were issues with social distancing, [908359] Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): staff training and management arrangements. Can the If he will make a statement on his departmental Minister put his hand on his heart and honestly say that responsibilities. other courts would not fail the HSE test, and will he agree that it is now time to work with staff representatives The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice to put things right, and carry out the national (Robert Buckland): Throughout the pandemic, dedicated risk assessment demanded today by the Criminal Bar public servants across the justice system have continued Association? delivering vital services. Wehave implemented contingency measures to ensure that hearings could continue safely and securely,and we now have 16 Nightingale courtrooms. Chris Philp: A huge amount of work has happened We have also implemented a national framework for over the past six months to risk-assess different courts, dealing with covid in our prisons and secured greater working with Public Health England and Public Health access to testing in order to manage outbreaks. Wales, and talking to union representatives as well. That is how we have got almost every court in the As the Prime Minister outlined at the weekend, it is country now up and running in a socially distanced now necessary for England to enter into a new set of way. For example, we have installed perspex screens to national restrictions so that we can stem the spread of make sure that jurors are separated from one another, the virus, protect our NHS and save lives, but essential and we are making sure that there are jury retiring public services will stay open and that of course includes rooms where jurors can space out. There is extremely courts and prisons. We are well prepared to respond to frequent cleaning happening throughout every courtroom. the current restrictions,having acquired valuable knowledge What is important is that justice is done, justice is from the first wave of the virus, with contingency plans delivered, and it is done safely, and that is precisely what in place to manage risks throughout the winter. I am is now happening. sure the whole House will want to join me in expressing gratitude to all our justice heroes working in prisons, probation and the courts, who will continue to go the Female Offender Strategy extra mile.

Ellie Reeves (Lewisham West and Penge) (Lab): What Geraint Davies [V]: Can the Justice Secretary give an progress he has made on the implementation of the example of a military operational decision that has female offender strategy. [908311] been changed as a result of court action or the threat of court action, and an example of a vexatious claim that The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lucy has not been dismissed by the courts, with costs? Frazer): The female offenders strategy launched two years ago recognises a different approach to female offenders, Robert Buckland: I take it that the hon. Gentleman is and we are making good progress. We initially invested referring to the Bill that will be debated this afternoon, £5.1 million in funding to 30 women’s services across which contains important provisions to get the balance 155 Oral Answers 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 156 right between the need to make sure that our armed Robert Buckland: The hon. Lady can be reassured services are supported properly and their contribution that these issues are being examined at the moment. is valued and the need to make sure that, like everybody The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, my hon. and else, no one is above the law. There have at times in years learned Friend the Member for South East Cambridgeshire gone by been a number of examples where members of (Lucy Frazer), and I take a particular interest in the our gallant armed services have been unfairly exposed threshold in the change from youth status to adult. It to the potential of legal action, which has caused real applies in a multiplicity of different ways. I can assure hurt, disquiet and genuine concern among the general her, for example, that people who have attained the age public. It is right that in the Overseas Operations (Service of 18 are dealt with as youths for the purposes of Personnel and Veterans) Bill we take corrective action sentencing, but the position is complex, and we are to get that balance more finely adjusted. looking at all the ramifications of it, including the one that she raised. Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): A decade of cuts, court closures and mishandling of the pandemic [908365] Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and Sheppey) has created a backlog in the Crown courts of nearly (Con): Will my hon. and learned Friend explain what 50,000 cases. It could reach 195,000 by 2024. The Courts she is doing to ensure that prison staff have access to Service says we need at least an extra 200 venues to fill swift testing, to avoid unnecessary periods of self-isolation? the gap, but on 19 October 2020, the Judicial Office Has consideration been given to making mandatory the confirmed only five Nightingale courts were hearing wearing of face masks by prison officers when on duty? jury trials. That is a failure of epic proportions, leading to thousands of victims of serious crime being denied The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lucy justice. Has the Lord Chancellor failed to ask for enough Frazer): I would like to thank all the staff who have resources to get justice moving, or has he been denied it been working so hard at this particularly challenging by the Treasury? time. We have started to routinely test staff, and we are providing personal protective equipment, including Robert Buckland: The right hon. Gentleman is wrong medical-grade face masks. on all fronts. First, we secured an extra £80 million of [908361] Florence Eshalomi (Vauxhall) (Lab/Co-op): funding from the Treasury to deal specifically with Access to justice is under threat. In my constituency, we covid court recovery. That came on top of the largest have just lost one of our most established independent investment and increase in court maintenance in 20 years, legal advice centres. As Members will know, access to including during his stewardship. That has resulted in that service is vital; we see it in our casework. It is the scaling up of courts, so that today we have important for citizens to have access to free legal advice. 255 courtrooms hearing jury trials, which is ahead of The sector has faced so many cuts over the years, and the target I had set for the end of October. We will go since lockdown, demand has grown—demand from further. We have already opened 19 courtrooms under people facing debt and people facing employment issues. the Nightingale court scheme. This is not a story of If these centres are to close, it will cause unimaginable failure. This is a story of success and hard work on the stress. Can the Secretary of State outline what steps he part of everybody in the court service. The projections is taking to ensure that these vital services are available that he mentioned are based upon some pretty inaccurate for citizens? predictions that do not bear the closest scrutiny.1 Robert Buckland: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for [908364] Paul Howell (Sedgefield) (Con): What are the raising an important and enduring issue. I, too, similarly Government doing to support the resourcing of magistrates pay tribute to the work that law centres and other courts, which are vital to the dispensation of justice in organisations play in administering important advice my constituency and across the UK? For victims of and those first steps that are so crucial sometimes in violent crime and domestic abuse in particular, it is actually dealing effectively with problems that can be important that their cases are expedited. averted. Already as part of pre-covid work, we had allocated £5 million for early legal help. I know the Robert Buckland: Like my hon. Friend, I am very Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend grateful to the magistracy in County Durham and the Member for Cheltenham (Alex Chalk), is working elsewhere for the part they have played in keeping our tirelessly to evolve a scheme of early legal support and system working. All victims—none more so than those advice. It is something that I passionately endorse as he mentions—deserve prompt justice. That is why I am well. We will continue to develop that and to achieve the grateful to every part of the criminal justice system that ends that I think both she and I share. is working so hard to ensure case progression. To that end, we have made available £1 million to improve the Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD): The female offender recruitment process. Wereviewed our planned recruitment strategy rightly recommends women’scentres over custodial in line with changing demands on our magistracy and sentences, but the funding committed as part of the are consulting on proposals to increase the mandatory strategy ran out in March. The Minister earlier actually retirement age of all judicial office holders. referred to more funding for women’s services, but I am talking about women’s centres, and I have been [908360] Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op): unsuccessfully trying to set up one in Bath. Will the When somebody under the age of 18 commits an offence, Government commit to providing a significant amount they join the long list of those waiting for their case to of core funding for women’s centres? come to a hearing, and they are then tried in the adult courts. That cannot be right. Will the Justice Secretary Lucy Frazer: If I could correct the hon. Lady, the review this and ensure that, if a crime is committed by a £2.5 million that we have committed this year for the youth, they are tried through the youth justice system? female offender strategy will be going directly to women’s 1.[Official Report, 9 November 2020, Vol. 683, c. 8MC.] 157 Oral Answers 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 158 centres where they bid for it. I am very happy to talk to [908373] Antony Higginbotham (Burnley) (Con): The her about her particular centre, but the £2.5 million is Lord Chancellor will be aware of my constituent Kelly specifically to help sustain the women’s centres to continue Ormerod, whose parents sadly died while on holiday in to support our female offenders. Egypt more than two years ago. Unfortunately, in the last two years, the UK coroner has been unable to get [908368] Mrs Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) the answers he needs to be able to identify the cause of (Con): What steps is my right hon. and learned Friend death. That has caused great anxiety for the family and taking to ensure that all victims, but in particular those denied them the answers that they are looking for. subject to crimes such as sexual-related offences or Would the Lord Chancellor therefore meet me and modern slavery, are being properly supported and that Kelly to see how we can progress this case through the their rights are being properly protected during this UK coroner to give them the answers they deserve? time? Robert Buckland: My hon. Friend has worked tirelessly Robert Buckland: I am very grateful to my hon. on this very sensitive and sad case, and I pay tribute to Friend, and I know she works closely with support him for his hard work on behalf of his constituents. I services and victims groups in her constituency. We are am sure that this delay is causing them additional committed to ensuring that victims like the ones she distress, and of course I will be happy to meet him. He mentioned receive the support they need. Wehave delivered knows that, sadly, the Government cannot compel the £22 million of emergency funding to support victims of production of documents for a coroner investigation domestic abuse and sexual violence. That has reached from the Egyptian authorities, but my officials have more than 540 charities in the frontline so far. Indeed, indeed contacted the senior coroner in the local area for following the No. 10 hidden harms summit, which I more details and an update, and I understand that the took part in, we are delivering an action plan that puts senior coroner has now written to the Egyptian prosecutor victims at the centre of the criminal justice system and, general. indeed, our courts recovery programme. We are strengthening the victims code to establish a clearer set [908372] Dr Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Strathaven of rights for victims. and Lesmahagow) (SNP): The YPeople project in Lindsay House in East Kilbride in my constituency has had the police called out 700 times in two years in respect of [908367] Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab) [V]: At a time when England is entering a second antisocial behaviour, crime, weapons and drug misuse, national lockdown, potential victims of domestic abuse and this has continued at a high rate even during are again increasingly vulnerable, so what steps are lockdown. Local residents now tell me they are terrified being taken to make sure that trials of people accused and parents are saying that children are being offered of domestic abuse and, indeed, support for their drugs during their school lunch breaks. What more can victims are being prioritised by Government? be done to provide intensive offender and substance abuse rehabilitation prior to relocation to local communities so that residents are not put at such pervasive risk? Robert Buckland: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, and he can be reassured that, throughout the pandemic, Robert Buckland: The hon. Lady raises a very serious domestic abuse cases appearing in a magistrates court case in her constituency, and I am sure that her colleagues and indeed in the Crown court have been given the in the Scottish Government, who of course have always priority that we all expect them to be allocated. We have had responsibility for these matters, Scotland being a seen, of course, a big demand spike in the covid crisis separate criminal jurisdiction, will consider this very for domestic abuse support services, which is why the carefully. I am concerned to hear that in that local package that I referred to in the previous answer—the instance, despite best intentions, there does not seem to £25 million package, of which £22 million has already be that reach into the community to give people the been allocated to support groups dealing with domestic speedy comfort and the confidence that they deserve. abuseandsexualviolence—isalreadymakingarealdifference May I say that south of the border we are working very to victims and those affected by domestic abuse. hard to enhance and improve community treatment requirements to deal with drug addiction and alcohol [908369] Mike Hill (Hartlepool) (Lab): Records show abuse and, indeed, to try and get to the root cause of that, because of police underfunding, Cleveland police some of this reoffending that causes misery to communities are 500 officers down. Hartlepool magistrates court has such as the one the hon. Lady serves? closed and our local cells have been mothballed. Would the Secretary of State agree to meet me to discuss the [908375] Anthony Mangnall (Totnes) (Con): My reopening of our police cells in Hartlepool as a matter constituency of Totnes in south Devon is home to of importance in order to build back confidence? LandWorks, a fantastic charity that helps those at risk of going to prison or prisoners into jobs and back into Robert Buckland: I am sure the hon. Gentleman the community. With so many prisoners released every would support very much the Government’s moves to month who are unable to access universal credit and scale up the number of police officers. In Cleveland, the housing, will the Minister meet me to discuss how we numbers are already rising in an encouraging way. I can improve access to those mechanisms, as well as note the point that he makes about particular custodial visiting LandWorks? facilities. Of course I will discuss the matter with him. He will know that it is vital that we maintain local Lucy Frazer: I would be very happy to visit when we justice, but at the same time make sure that we use are allowed to do so, and certainly before then to remote technology as well in order to get cases on as discuss the issues in my hon. Friend’s constituency, and quickly as possible and to deliver justice to victims. I pay tribute to the work of LandWorks in his area. The 159 Oral Answers 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 160 issue of universal credit is fundamental, as is getting were lifted over the summer, prison staff across the people into homes, and I work very closely with my country have worked very hard to open up the estate. counterpart at the Department for Work and Pensions Since the end of the previous lockdown we have and the Secretary of State at the Department, along reintroduced visits in every prison, and 119 of our with the Lord Chancellor, to ensure that prison leavers prisons are operating at stage 3 of the national framework; can access universal credit in a timely way on their this reintroduced key work, education and offender release, and we are doing other work in relation to their management activities where it was appropriate to do getting a job and a home. so. As we enter a new phase, we are thinking very carefully about the balance between security and resistance Lucy Allan (Telford) (Con): As we enter another to the virus and the mental health needs of our prisoners. lockdown with severe restrictions on prisoners, will the Minister consider the impact of the very serious other Mr Speaker: In order to allow the safe exit of hon. harms that the minimising covid restrictions risk causing Members participating in this item of business and the to prisoners, prison officers and their families? safe arrival of those participating in the next, I suspend the House for three minutes. Lucy Frazer: My hon. Friend makes an extremely important point. We are very conscious of the impact that the very restrictive conditions we have imposed will 12.34 pm have on those in our custody and care. Since restrictions Sitting suspended. 161 3 NOVEMBER 2020 162

Speaker’s Statement Lockdown: Economic Support

Mr Speaker: Before I call the shadow Chancellor to 12.39 pm ask an urgent question, I have a brief statement to Anneliese Dodds (Oxford East) (Lab/Co-op) (Urgent make. Motion No. 9 on today’s Order Paper extends the Question): To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if proxy voting scheme to allow proxies for hon. Members he will make a statement on economic support available present on the precincts of the Palace. If the motion is to individuals and businesses during and after the recently passed, I intend to introduce the new scheme with effect announced lockdown. from tomorrow, including hon. Members who make their designation before 9.30 am tomorrow. To apply for The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Steve Barclay): a proxy, Members must email [email protected] Yesterday,the Prime Minister set out whywe are introducing with the name of their nominated proxy. On subsequent new measures to tackle coronavirus. days, notice will be given before the House rises on the Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): He’s not the preceding sitting day, or 3 o’clock on a non-sitting Chancellor. Friday. Mr Speaker: Order. Toby, I do not need this all the way through. Please, I want to get on with this statement. I have granted the UQ, and I do not need Back Benchers chirping. Steve Barclay: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Yesterday, the Prime Minister set out why we are introducing new measures to tackle coronavirus. This decision is not one we would wish to take, but it responds to the soaring infection rate. Just as we have a responsibility to protect lives, we must also safeguard livelihoods. That is why the Governmenthaveprovidedunprecedentedlevelsof financial support throughout this crisis, in a package described by the International Monetary Fund as “one of the best examples of co-ordinated action globally”. This package includes an extension to the coronavirus job retention scheme, where employees will receive 80% of their usual salary up to a maximum of £2,500, while employers need only pay national insurance and pension contributions. We will provide more support to the self-employed. Weare increasing the self-employed income support scheme grant from 40% to 80% in November. This boosts the total grant from 40% to 55% of trading profits from November to January, up to a total of £5,160, aligning it with the furlough scheme. In addition, homeowners hit by the pandemic can continue to claim a six-month mortgage holiday, and businesses that are required to close can receive non-repayable grants worth up to £3,000 a month. In total, these grants are worth over £1 billion a month. We are also planning to extend the existing business loan schemes and the future fund to the end of January, as well as making it possible to top up bounce back loans. Local authorities will also receive £1.1 billion to support businesses more broadly, and up to £500 million to support the local public health message through the contain outbreak management fund. We will also uplift the Barnett guarantee this week to give Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland further certainty over their up-front funding. These measures build on the Government’s economic package that now totals over £200 billion. They will provide security to millions of people while giving businesses the flexibility to adapt and plan, and they underline our unrelenting focus on listening and responding to the damaging path of this virus. Anneliese Dodds: Thank you very much for granting this urgent question, Mr Speaker. The circuit breaker that Labour proposed three weeks ago would have been shorter and more effective, so less damaging to jobs and 163 Lockdown: Economic Support3 NOVEMBER 2020 Lockdown: Economic Support 164

[Anneliese Dodds] The hon. Lady asks whether the Government have a plan in place. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor businesses, than the Government’slast-minute, but lengthy, came to the House on 24 September to set out our lockdown. The cost of that Conservative delay will be winter plan for jobs. It included the kickstart scheme, counted in lives and livelihoods, so was it the Chancellor which is up and running, and provides much-needed who vetoed the circuit breaker? Why did he tell the training to our constituents across the country. While Welsh Government that it was impossible to extend setting out his winter plan, he said candidly that if the furlough, and why did he dismiss those in the north who pathway of the virus changed, the Government would said his plans would lead to hardship? listen and adapt, and that is exactly the action that we I heard from one restaurant about the strain caused have taken. by this panicked, last-minute approach. As rumours of Finally, somewhat strangely, the hon. Lady said that a lockdown circulated on Friday, staff wiped away tears she needs to “drag” Ministers to the Chamber to set out before putting on a brave face to customers. They did their approach. [Interruption.] She is repeating the not know whether, in the following week, they would be point. Mr Speaker, I thought the Prime Minister was working as normal, facing redundancy, being paid at here yesterday to give a statement to the House. It is 67% of their normal wages or being paid at 73%. somewhat strange to say, the day after he did that, that Ministers have to be dragged to the Chamber to give Similarly, the self-employed endured intransigence updates on the position. and then rumour, before a last-minute announcement yesterday that still leaves many people with nothing. Mr Speaker: Order. I decide whether we have an Businesses need to know what support they will receive urgent question, and I am sure that the Minister is not if their area faces further restrictions on the other side questioning my judgment on that. of lockdown, but the Prime Minister said yesterday that they will not find out until just before those restrictions Steve Barclay: Mr Speaker, I hope that you know me are imposed. well enough to feel that I would never do that; I clarify How can any business plan on that basis? How can that for the record in case any other impression was people cope with that level of insecurity? The lack of given. My point was that the diligence of Ministers in any plan for economic support is making a very, very updating the House was demonstrated by the Prime difficult situation even worse. Will the Chancellor and Minister yesterday in his statement. his Ministers finally get a grip, and set out the plan for the next six months? Will the Chancellor and his Ministers Mr Speaker: Order. We will leave it at this, but it is no finally get a grip, and set out the plan for the next good to have something played out through the press six months? Will they indicate how the different scenarios on Saturday and Sunday, so that on Monday everybody facing us will be dealt with, not retrospectively, or at the already knows about it, and it is no shock. That is why last minute, or once businesses have gone bust and jobs the right hon. Gentleman could not judge whether to have already been lost, but in advance? Will they set out have a UQ. We will leave it there. a plan for support if the lockdown is extended, or if some regions or devolved nations remain under restrictions Steve Barclay: We have a plan set out—the winter for longer? Finally, will I continue having to drag plan. We have always demonstrated that we will listen Government Ministers here week after week as this and adapt; that is what the Government are doing. Government stumble from one crisis to the next? They are setting out a comprehensive package of support to protect as many jobs and livelihoods as possible. Steve Barclay: The hon. Lady started by saying that the circuit breaker would have been shorter, but those Mr Speaker: Let us enter Central Devon with the on her Front Bench have repeatedly said, when interviewed, Chair of the Select Committee on the Treasury, Mel that a circuit breaker would have to be repeated. Stride. The deputy chief medical officer was clear that an Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con) [V]: I broadly earlier national lockdown would not have been appropriate, welcome the new measures that the Government have because at the time, the path of the virus was very slow brought forward to support jobs and, in particular, the in certain areas, such as the south-west, so the economic increase in support for the self-employed from 40% to damage would have been disproportionate. I might have 80% under the self-employment income support scheme expected to hear the hon. Lady’s argument from some arrangements. However, as my right hon. Friend will Members of the House, but it is surprising that the know, the Treasury Committee produced a report earlier economic spokesperson for the Opposition was willing this year in which we identified more than a million to see that economic damage. [Interruption.] She chunters, individuals—the self-employed in particular—who were but I am simply quoting the deputy chief medical missing out on support. Will he update the House on officer, whose advice was that a lockdown would have whether, under the new measures, any of those identified been the wrong action to take at that time. I am pointing in the report will receive support where they were not to economic damage, which she seems to see as trivial before? If the answer is no, why is that the case? and something to be disregarded. The hon. Lady then claimed that the Government Steve Barclay: My right hon. Friend is right to point had in some way dismissed certain parts of the United to the fact that some were not covered. In fact, that has Kingdom. I gently point out that furlough was not been an area of much debate within the House. He will ended; it continued to the end of October, and has now understand that there is a distinction to draw between been extended. Furlough has continued in all parts of employees who, because their details had not been the United Kingdom without any gap in its provision. notified to HMRC at the cut-off point last time, were 165 Lockdown: Economic Support3 NOVEMBER 2020 Lockdown: Economic Support 166 excluded, and those who because of the furlough extension First Minister of Northern Ireland as part of our will be included moving forward, so some of that population regular dialogue.That continues across the United Kingdom cohort are covered. and, indeed, at official level. The chief medical officers In respect of the self-employed cohort, my right hon. liaise extremely closely together. Friend will be aware that we have so far offered over Secondly, the hon. Lady’s various grievances are £30 billion of support to the self-employed, which is somewhat both surprising and disappointing when the generous by international standards. He knows, however, Government have listened and introduced, for the first that, within that, there are different cohorts. There is time, an up-front Barnett guarantee that has provided the cohort relating to company directors, where the the Scottish Government with £7.2 billion of funding at issue remains the same: what is dividend income and an earlier point than would traditionally be the case, what is not. He will know that another part of that recognising the volatility of the situation with covid. It group is those earning above £50,000, and we made a would be good for her to recognise that that is decision to target support below that threshold. He will unprecedented and different. Again, on the call yesterday, know that some people are self-employed but that is not I signalled to the First Minister that this week we would the majority of their income—less than 50% is through update with a further uplift—following our unprecedented their being self-employed—and that we targeted funding action—to give more clarity on the Barnett guarantee at those for whom self-employment was their main and the consequentials flowing from that. provision. So there are different cohorts within the Thirdly—[Interruption.] The hon. Lady keeps excluded population, but those who were employed will chuntering. Many of the schemes are UK-wide ones: be covered by the furlough extension. we have extended the loans, the coronavirus job retention scheme and the self-employed income support scheme. Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP): The UK Those can be delivered through the broad shoulders Government continue to lurch around in absolute chaos, that the United Kingdom offers. It is true that, through with a Prime Minister forced, due to the leak of his that capacity to act as one United Kingdom, we have plans, to come on TV and, after hours of delay, squeezing been able to protect up to 1 million jobs in Scotland. It in before “Strictly” to announce an English lockdown is important that we work together. That is why we were and the extension of furlough just before it was due to engaging with the Scottish Government yesterday. More expire. We have been telling them for months that it can be achieved if the Scottish Government and the UK would need to be extended. While I welcome the action, Government work together. That is how, to date, we this late extension will be of absolutely no comfort to have protected up to 1 million jobs, and that is the best those who have already lost their jobs due to the way forward. Government’s incompetence, or to the businesses in my constituency who have done their utmost to support David Mundell (Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and their staff and now have no idea where they stand. It is Tweeddale) (Con): As we have just seen, uncertainty in no comfort either to those who continue to be ignored. Scotland is always a basis for grievance for the SNP.My Those excluded from the initial support schemes face a right hon. Friend can end that uncertainty simply by bleak winter ahead. Will the Chief Secretary ensure clarifying that, should the scientific evidence demand a that they do not lose out again? There are still many further lockdown in Scotland, the furlough scheme at sectors of the economy that cannot go back to normal. 80% will be available to protect jobs in Scotland. The overwhelming sense, for many of us, is that this is not a Union of equals. When Wales, Northern Ireland, Steve Barclay: My right hon. Friend is right to pick Scotland and parts of the north-east of England asked up on that grievance culture. Through our ability to act for furlough to be extended this autumn, they were told on a UK basis, we have been able to offer the unprecedented that the Chancellor’s magic money tree had lost all its support that we have to date. Furlough has always been leaves. Yet, when the Prime Minister decided that England a UK-wide scheme and, as the Prime Minister said, the needed to go into urgent lockdown, it turned out that Government will always be there to provide support to the magic money tree was in fact an evergreen. all parts of the United Kingdom. Yesterday, the Prime Minister gamed his answers on furlough in the House in a pathetic and transparent Mary Kelly Foy (City of Durham) (Lab): Last month, attempt to make the hon. Member for Moray (Douglas the Government disgraced themselves by voting against Ross) look good, but he was contradicted on Sky News extending free school meals into the holidays for our this morning by the Secretary of State for Housing, most vulnerable children. Even if the Government will Communities and Local Government who said it would not reverse that cruel decision, will they at least follow be up to the Chancellor to decide if furlough would be Action for Children’s recommendations and extend free available to the devolved nations after 2 December. In school meals for all families in receipt of universal an act of further disrespect, the Chancellor is not even credit? here to answer this question. Will the Chief Secretary therefore be clear and honest about whether the Treasury Steve Barclay: The hon. Lady raises a serious issue will make furlough and SEISS available at 80% to any and one that all Members of the House care deeply part of these islands that requires that after 2 December? about, but it is also important to look at the package as a whole. We have put in an additional £9 billion of Steve Barclay: The hon. Lady started by saying that welfare support, recognising the increasing pressures. we were disrespecting parts of the United Kingdom. I That includes the £20 uplift on universal credit, the was on a call yesterday with the Chancellor of the lifting of the minimum income guarantee and the various Duchy of Lancaster, the First Secretary of State and other measures in the package. Above all, retaining jobs the Home Secretary and others, with the First Minister and getting people back into the labour market is the of Scotland, the First Minister of Wales and the Deputy best way that we can protect people from poverty. 167 Lockdown: Economic Support3 NOVEMBER 2020 Lockdown: Economic Support 168

Sir David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con) Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD) [V]: Businesses [V]: I welcome my right hon. Friend’s positive response across my constituency and across the country made on the additional measures of economic support. Does irreversible decisions last week based on advice from he agree that our Government have committed one of the Government that furlough was going to end on the most comprehensive and generous economic support Saturday. They now find themselves in a situation where packages anywhere in the world, worth more than furlough has been extended, but only for a month, and £200 billion? That is the right approach in these difficult there is a complete lack of clarity still today about the times. He rightly quotes the IMF in saying that our devolved nations. Will the Chief Secretary please urge response is the Chancellor to extend furlough through to the spring— “one of the best examples of coordinated action globally”. covid-19 is not going away at the end of this month—and Is it not also important that the IMF praised our can he give us a simple, one-word answer? Is furlough response for holding down unemployment? going to be available to the devolved nations, or is he going to continue this uncertainty, which is damaging Steve Barclay: I am very grateful to my right hon. the Union? Friend for that. He is quite right to pick up on the IMF report and the comments of the director of the IMF. Steve Barclay: At the risk of repeating myself, I refer It is worth reminding the House exactly what the IMF the hon. Lady to the reply I gave earlier, but she did director said: that the UK’s economic support package make a specific point about those who may have recently is been made redundant. [Interruption.] Again, the hon. Member for Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss) chunters “one of the best examples of coordinated action globally”. from a sedentary position. The hon. Member for Edinburgh I very much agree with my right hon. Friend that that West (Christine Jardine) made a specific point about speaks to the comprehensive package that the Chancellor those recently made redundant and I was just coming has put in place. on to answer that precise point. Employees notified by real-time information submission to HMRC on or before Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower) (Lab): Yesterday, the Prime 30 October are eligible for the furlough extension, but Minister said that funding would be available for the employees employed as of 23 September, which is the furlough scheme in the devolved nations, not just now day of the job support scheme announcement, and but for the future. As the Minister has just pointed out, notified to HMRC by RTI on or before that date who furlough is a UK-wide scheme, needed in all parts of have since been made redundant can be re-hired. In the United Kingdom, not only at the behest of the answer to the hon. Lady’squestion, the timing is important, Chancellor. This morning, however, the Secretary of but the point is that people can be re-hired as part of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government the furlough extension. said that it would be a matter for the Chancellor, not the Prime Minister. Will the Minister confirm today exactly John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): I am glad that what the situation is? Will he tell businesses in Gower the Government agree that where, by law, they stop and across the United Kingdom what the situation is? people working and earning a living, they should Also, will he tell us who is in charge, the Chancellor or compensate them. Will the Government look again at the Prime Minister? the terms of the scheme for the self-employed—there are restrictions on several categories of self-employed Steve Barclay: We have already extended the furlough who have no other means of earning their living and no for the rest of this month, and, as the PM said yesterday, large company support—and be more generous? Does we will always be there for all parts of the United Kingdom. my right hon. Friend agree that we need all those self-employed people to be ready to return to work to Siobhan Baillie (Stroud) (Con): Some of the most get some kind of recovery going soon, because the difficult conversations I have had this year have been economy is in deep trouble? with Stroud’s wedding and events industries and their supply chains—great businesses such as Eastington Park, Steve Barclay: I agree with my right hon. Friend that Stonehouse Court, Elmore Court and Bisley Hire. They we need to ensure that the economy is able to bounce are usually thriving, but they basically feel ignored. back quickly.That is why we have provided over £13 billion They have had a stop-start situation this year and are of support to the self-employed, which by international now nervously looking at next year, having lost a year’s comparisons—I know my right hon. Friend looks at revenue. Will my right hon. Friend commit to looking at international comparisons—he will see is extremely this valuable sector again to see what support we can generous. I have set out previously in the House part of make available, and will he meet me to discuss this the operational difficulties,for example with owner-directors matter? in terms of what is dividend income and what is not. The point is that we have set out a generous self-employment Steve Barclay: I am always very happy to meet my income support scheme, but we need to deliver that hon. Friend. She is right to talk about a sector that has operationally in a way that meets the tests set by, for been particularly hit by the impact of the covid pandemic. example, the Public Accounts Committee, which has She will be aware that, as part of the comprehensive asked whether we have the right level of controls in place, package of support, such sectors qualify for the extension given the speed at which these schemes were deployed. to the job retention scheme and the cash grants of up to £3,000 per month to businesses that are closed. I also Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): The latest ill- point her to the £1.1 billion of additional funding that advised lockdown is going to present an enormous has been allocated to councils, which is a key part of the burden for the economy in terms of lost tax revenue, business support at their discretion that they can allocate additional Government spending and reduced GDP. It to those businesses acutely hit in their authorities. is right that since the economic pain is being imposed 169 Lockdown: Economic Support3 NOVEMBER 2020 Lockdown: Economic Support 170 by the Government, those affected should be compensated criteria that he has set. With the furlough scheme, the for the pain that they will suffer. I welcome the Chief eligibility criteria have been updated so that businesses Secretary’s assurance that the furlough scheme will that have been registered with a bank account right up apply across the whole United Kingdom, but can he tell to last Friday can apply. For the self-employed, however, us what Barnett consequentials will be received by the eligibility criteria have not changed at all and will Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales for the business exclude many self-employed people from all the additional support grant that he announced in this package? investment that is now available. Will he look at that? Steve Barclay: The right hon. Gentleman raises a Steve Barclay: Such has been the number of times valid and fair point. As I said on my call with the First that the matter has been raised in the House and Minister yesterday, I hope to be in a position to update through the campaign, we have looked at it. Some of her this week about the additional Barnett guarantee those issues have not changed—for example, the difficulty that we can give. The right hon. Gentleman is right to of determining what is dividend income as opposed to point to the consequentials that flow from the £1.1 billion earned income, as I referred to in my answer to my right of additional local authority funding that the Chancellor hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (John Redwood). set out. He will also have seen, for example, the additional We took a decision to target those below the support that the UK Government gave to Transport for £50,000 threshold. Some of those issues have not changed London, the rail support measures that we have provided, from the previous period. and so on. Those are the issues on which the Barnett consequentials will be shaped. He is right that it is The hon. Gentleman is right that the furlough allows important for them to have sight of that. That is why we some of those who were excluded to come within scope, have taken the unprecedented decision to give that but I draw the House’s attention to the fact that, even up-front guarantee, and I hope to be able to give an within the House, there is a degree of conflict here. The update on that later this week. Treasury Committee has said that we should be more willing to bring the cohort of the self-employed into Adam Afriyie (Windsor) (Con): My heart is breaking scope, yet the Public Accounts Committee has expressed for the once-thriving businesses across the Windsor concern that we need to have much stricter operational constituency and the country. I have met owners of controls because of the risks, for example, of fraud. We pubs, clubs, restaurants, bars, sports venues, salons and see that difference even between the two Select Committees retail outlets. They cannot magically become online in this House. Of the different cohorts within what is businesses. I have spoken to business owners who have known as the ExcludedUK campaign, some of those on literally been in tears on the phone and in person when furlough will be able to come back into scope, but much they think about their staff and their livelihoods. of the rationale has not changed. Of course, we will The new proposed lockdown will prove fatal to many continue to look at it. such businesses. There are many questions about the strategy, the need for a lockdown and the generous Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): May I seek further support the Government are trying to give, but I will clarification on the previous answer and on the point contain my question to this: how do the Government raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham intend to protect retail businesses that are forced to (John Redwood)? Self-employed people who have in close from the increasing dominance of online retailers, effect created a limited company and draw dividends which often benefit from lower business rates and taxes are being prevented by the Government from trading. than their terrestrial partners? Rather than just outlining the difficulties, will the Chief Secretary commit to saying we will find a way around Steve Barclay: My hon. Friend has a deep understanding that, so we can actually tell our constituents what of business from his career prior to coming to the support they will receive over the next few weeks? House. He is absolutely right to talk of the personal consequences, the commitment that people who set up and run businesses have made, and the devastating Steve Barclay: For reasons I set out some time ago to impact of the virus and its consequences. On the tax the Treasury Committee, and for the reasons set out by position, he will know from his time in the House that the Chancellor, operationally the concern is that while those are questions for the Budget and for my right hon there will of course be many legitimate circumstances Friend the Chancellor. where people wish to make a claim, unfortunately there will also be significant risk of fraud. I pointed to the On the support that has been given to businesses, I fact that within the House itself part of the challenge is direct my hon. Friend to the extension of the loans that how we ensure we have the right balance between the we have given to help businesses with their cash flow, speed of delivery—we move quickly to get schemes to which recognises that the biggest cost for many businesses people—with the operational controls we put in place. is the fixed cost of their property. That includes the up That is why we have taken the position we have. to £3,000 a month grant for those with rateable values above £51,000 and the support to local authorities, as I referenced in my response to my hon. Friend the Member Apsana Begum (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): Since for Stroud (Siobhan Baillie) a moment ago, for their the previous lockdown was lifted, two leisure centres in discretionary support to specific businesses. It is part of my constituency have not reopened. Both facilities were that comprehensive package, but he is right to draw outsourced by my council due in part to the lack of attention to the human consequence of those decisions. funding to local authorities. Leisure centres such as these are vital to the mental health and wellbeing of the Peter Kyle (Hove) (Lab): Any additional investment communities they serve. Indeed, I believe they should to help the self-employed is welcome, and I do welcome be defined as an essential service. What will be done to it, but I ask the Chief Secretary to look at the eligibility ensure that that essential service and leisure centres 171 Lockdown: Economic Support3 NOVEMBER 2020 Lockdown: Economic Support 172

[Apsana Begum] have a very constructive dialogue. It is in part due to her representations that the Barnett guarantee—this such as St George’s and Tiller in my constituency do not unprecedented up-front guarantee—was put in place, face permanent closure as a result of the forthcoming, and I look forward to further discussions with her in the and any future, lockdown? weeks ahead. Steve Barclay: The hon. Lady is right to point to the Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) pivotal nature of leisure centres in our constituencies. I (Con): Pubs such as the Crown Inn in King’s Somborne think all Members would agree with that. I draw her are really concerned about how they will weather the attention to the £4.7 billion of additional funding we coming lockdown. They make the not unreasonable have given to local authorities as part of our response point that if it is safe to sell takeaway food, it should to covid, and to the discretion we have given local also be safe to sell takeaway beer. Will my right hon. authorities so that they can apply that funding with the Friend look at this anomaly and see if he can throw a local knowledge they have and target it in the most lifeline to these valuable community hubs? effective way. Steve Barclay: My right hon. Friend makes an interesting Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) point. She will know that in terms of the epidemiology (Con): First, I would like to welcome the unprecedented and the guidance, that is for my right hon. Friend the innovative package of support the Chancellor has put Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, but she is in place, which has undoubtedly helped to support right with these questions to point to the economic businesses and families in my constituency. What more impact of the measures. That is something on which we can my right hon. Friend do to support the coach continue to have close dialogue with colleagues in the tourism sector specifically? Small family companies such Department of Health and Social Care to ensure that as A & P Travel and Sleafordian Coaches have done so she gets the clarification she seeks. much to make their transport covid-secure. However, while the venues they support have received funding Ben Lake (Ceredigion) (PC): Yesterday, the Prime from the culture recovery fund and enhanced local Minister stated in the House: authority grants, they have not. We need to ensure that “The furlough scheme is a UK-wide scheme and will continue when the theatres, museums and the like are able to to be available wherever it is needed.”—[Official Report, 2 November reopen there is still a viable coach tourism industry to 2020; Vol. 683, c. 54.] get their customers there. Will the Minister therefore confirm whether the Prime Minister was right and that furlough support will be Steve Barclay: The coach firms sector has been available to Wales in the future, should public health particularly impacted as a consequence of covid. That priorities require restrictions to be reintroduced? A is why, in response, we worked with the Department for simple yes or no will suffice. Education to provide over £70 million of funding for local transport. That has been to the benefit of many, Steve Barclay: Several times now I have quoted what including coach firms. Of course, the wider package of was said. The Prime Minister said that the Government support—for example, the furlough scheme, the cash will always be there to provide support to all parts of grants of up to £3,000 for businesses that are closed, the the United Kingdom. It is worth taking a step back and extended loans and so on—applies to the sector as it looking at the fact that the UK-wide ability to act is does to others. The wider package applies, but I also how we have been able to provide so much support draw my hon. Friend’s attention to the specific education across the UK with schemes such as the furlough scheme, funding that has been provided, which I know has been the self-employed scheme, the loans, extensions and so a help to a number of coach firms. forth. It is our ability to act across the United Kingdom that has helped many businesses to weather the storm. Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP): If there were no confusion about the furlough support Dr Kieran Mullan (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con): I for Scotland in the event of another lockdown, the right begin by thanking the Government on behalf of the hon. Gentleman’s own Tory MPs and Members across businesses and employers in my constituency that have the House would not need to constantly have to ask for benefited and will continue to benefit from the extraordinary clarification. That confusion and uncertainty is a failure steps that have been taken. However, we know that, of his own Government, after the Communities Secretary sadly, people have already lost their jobs and we may said that it would be for the Chancellor to decide at the expect future job losses. What more can we do to help time of any future Scottish lockdown. Will the Chief people to overcome this incredibly difficult time in their Secretary apologise for that confusion and uncertainty? lives, in terms of support for jobseekers and for retraining? Will he meet the Scottish Finance Secretary, who has I know that there are jobs out there, but this is about been requesting a meeting since Saturday, to discuss how we get people into those jobs in growing areas. funding for Scotland and put an end to the chaos, confusion and uncertainty which is detrimentally affecting Steve Barclay: My hon. Friend makes a hugely important jobs and businesses in Scotland? point. It is not just the number of jobs that are lost, but the duration of time that people are out of those jobs Steve Barclay: I do find it somewhat surprising to be that is critical in mitigating the economic scarring that asked to have a meeting the day after I had a meeting results from this pandemic. That is why my right hon. with the First Minister of Scotland, who I assume Friend the Chancellor set out in his winter plan the plan spoke with the authority of the Scottish Finance Minister. for jobs, which included £2 billion of funding for the I have regular meetings with the Scottish Finance Minister. kickstart scheme. I was speaking to the Secretary of I hope, and certainly feel from my point of view, that we State for Work and Pensions this morning and I was 173 Lockdown: Economic Support3 NOVEMBER 2020 Lockdown: Economic Support 174 very pleased to hear about the progress that has already Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab) [V]: Prior to this lockdown been made on the kickstart scheme, which is up and announcement, we had had almost universal calls for running and providing support to 16 to 24-year-olds an extension to the full furlough scheme in areas with across our constituencies. It is part of the wider package tighter restrictions, which Ministers had rejected for of support on training—the tripling of traineeships, the months. Despite that, the Government saw fit to announce £2,000 for apprenticeships, the £2 billion on kickstart—and a new version of this on Saturday, only hours before the as we accelerate our infrastructure and bring back the previous furlough was due to be replaced by an inferior green jobs, such as through the decarbonisation of scheme for us in the north, as further restrictions were public buildings, that will also offer new opportunities becoming inevitable in many areas. Many people in the for training as we deliver that record infrastructure north therefore now believe that until workers in the investment. south were to be affected by the national lockdown, they were somehow thought to be worth less. Businesses Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green) [V]: The in Gateshead and elsewhere are desperate for clarity new grant scheme for businesses in the hospitality, and certainty to help them in planning and so that they leisure and accommodation sector is welcome, but those know whether and how they can survive. Will the Chief in my Brighton constituency need to know that all small Secretary commit today to publishing details of a and medium-sized enterprises in that sector will benefit. comprehensive,ongoing financial support package available In particular, will the Minister scrap the business rates to businesses and their workers in areas that will continue link and the rateable value cap from previous schemes, to need it, where tiers of restrictions might, sadly, have to which caused such hardship? They meant, for example, continue after 2 December? that business tenants in shared buildings got nothing or that a pub owner in Brighton lost out because rateable Steve Barclay: First, on the suggestion that there has values here are higher than in a place such as Bolton. been a differentiated approach, the point is that a Will he reassure them that they will not lose out again? number of arrangements were put in place, for example, with the Mayor of the Liverpool City Region, with civic Steve Barclay: First, it is perfectly fair and reasonable leaders in your own Lancashire region, Mr Speaker, to target a level of support shaped by the rateable value and with South Yorkshire, because we recognised that of the property, which is what my right hon. Friend the there were additional pressures in those communities. Chancellor has done. The hon. Lady is right to point to Wealso put in further support retrospectively, recognising the fact that within different local authorities there are that a number of areas had been in tier 2 restrictions for different pressures, which is why in the £1.1 billion that a period. So the suggestion that additional support had has been allocated, we have given discretion to local not been offered does not stand that scrutiny. If one authorities in their ability to then target support to takes the deputy chief medical officer’s advice, it was businesses in the way that best meets local needs. inappropriate previously to have a national lockdown— Professor Van-Tam set that out—but the pathway of Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con): I thank my the virus and the infection increase was such that a right hon. Friend and the whole Treasury team for the more comprehensive approach was taken. So this is a remarkable job they are doing in these difficult times. response to the health pandemic as much as a response However, I wish to highlight the plight of the people to anything that is geographically determined. and businesses that have fallen through the financial gap. These are businesses that, through no fault of their Robert Largan (High Peak) (Con): I welcome the own, have had to cease trading or are trading with a extra support for the self-employed and the news that massive reduction in productivity, and are doing so many of those who did not qualify for the initial furlough without grants or access to salary, not because the scheme will qualify under the extended scheme, but I Government have closed their business, but because want to ask the Minister about the bounce back loans, they are in the supply chain that supplies the businesses which have been a lifeline for so many businesses in my that the Government have closed. Will he at least give constituency. Back when they made the applications for reassurances that consideration is being given to these those loans, businesses would not have foreseen that businesses, which have suffered huge losses in the past disruption would have gone on for so long, so can steps nine months? I am thinking of businesses such as the be taken to ensure that they can apply for top-ups to Little Valley Brewery in Calder Valley and the Robinwood their initial loan and get through the difficult winter outdoor education centre. ahead? Steve Barclay: My hon. Friend is right to pick out the Steve Barclay: In short, yes they can. My hon. Friend specific challenges faced by the supply chain, often raises a valid point, which is that a number of businesses because they supply multiple sectors; they may not be in will have taken out loans for what they felt was their a given sector where there are specific issues, but they need at that time. Further restrictions have been placed supply across a number of sectors. So he is right about on businesses, which is why we have extended the period the issue. Part of the reason we have taken the universal for availability of loans to the end of the year. He is approach on the wider package of schemes, whether on right about that, and I can provide him with that support for cash flow with the loans and grants, or on reassurance. the direct measures to support the labour market through the furlough and self-employed income support schemes, Tracy Brabin (Batley and Spen) (Lab/Co-op): The is to recognise that once one tries to demarcate sectors, Minister explained that the response when he spoke to that becomes difficult in the supply chain. So part of northern Mayors was about health data and not about the package of support that applies to the supply sector regions, but he must accept that, by callously saying to is provided through those universal schemes, but he is workers in West Yorkshire and the north that they are right about the issues that these businesses face. on two thirds of pay, the Government have created a 175 Lockdown: Economic Support3 NOVEMBER 2020 Lockdown: Economic Support 176

[Tracy Brabin] the answer I gave earlier. Those who have lost their jobs recently could come back through the furlough extension. north-south divide. That divide is unnecessary when we Those employees employed as of 23 September—the should be coming together as a country to deal with this day of the job support scheme announcement—and pandemic. Will he ask the Chancellor for clarity about notified to HMRC by real-time information on or before the restrictions and for confirmation that, when we that date who have since been made redundant can be come out of this national lockdown, no worker will be rehired. expected to earn two thirds of their pay, so that workers in low-paid jobs are not living in fear when they look Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): I draw ahead to Christmas with no money in the bank? the House’s attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. Steve Barclay: The hon. Lady is conflating several I welcome the extension to the coronavirus loan different issues. First, the furlough had not expired; it schemes and the ability to top up bounce back loans. was running until the end of October. It applied universally Can my right hon. Friend confirm that that ability to until that point, so the suggestion of it being applied top up loans also applies to the coronavirus business differently is simply not the case. Secondly, the purpose interruption loan scheme? Will he also look at bounce and the design of the job support scheme is different back loans for customers of non-bank lenders? According from the furlough. The furlough is a response to the to research by the all-party parliamentary group on fair need for people to stay at home. The job support business banking, which I chair,around 250,000 businesses scheme is intended to try to encourage them back. That currently bank with non-bank lenders who do not have is why the design is for at least 20% of hours—one day access to these schemes because they do not get access in the office. Thirdly, as my right hon. Friend the to the Bank of England term funding scheme. Will he Chancellor has set out on a number of occasions, look at that problem? the two-thirds support is dynamic in its interaction with the wider support through the £9 billion of additional Steve Barclay: I can probably go one better than welfare spending. One needs to look at the fact that looking at it myself, because the Economic Secretary to there are two different purposes behind these two schemes, the Treasury, who leads on these matters in the Treasury, but the fundamental point is that there is no gap between will have heard my hon. Friend’s representations and the furlough that was due to expire on 30 October and will do so. I know that he is looking at the issue of the the new furlough extension. coronavirus business interruption loan scheme specifically. On my hon. Friend’s second point, I think that there are Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con): I thank my 28 creditors, but I know that my hon. Friend the Economic right hon. Friend and the team for the package of Secretary to the Treasury will follow up with him. support, which will save jobs and livelihoods across Wimbledon. He will know that since March, I have Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab): The been raising the plight of people who are excluded from Chief Secretary will be aware that many businesses feel the scheme because they have been forced to close their that the Government have acted arbitrarily in imposing businesses, so I support a number of the comments restrictions on their sectors, and none more so than the made about the self-employed. May I raise yet again hospitality and pub sector, with the 10 pm curfew. with him industries such as events, exhibitions and During the first lockdown, local independent brewers hospitality supply, which are all excluded from the such as Slaughterhouse and Church Farm in my business rates scheme and the business grants scheme? constituency, and also the independent pubs that they They need that support if we are to have those vibrant serve, such as the Somerville Arms and the Old Post contributors to the economy in the future. Office, were able to sell takeaway alcohol, but that has Steve Barclay: I am aware of the concerns that my now been banned by the Government. That will damage hon. Friend has raised. I point him to the fact that, to the sector dramatically. What has the Chancellor got date, the Treasury has spent more than £200 billion as against pubs? part of our comprehensive package of support. We Steve Barclay: Not least through the eat out to help have applied a universal approach in terms of the out scheme, one can see the Chancellor’s support to this furlough, loans, business grants and so forth, but I am sector. Also, VAT was cut from 20% to 5%, and many happy to have further discussions with him in the weeks within the sector have benefited, particularly from the ahead. wider universal package of schemes such as the furlough Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP) scheme. The exact health advice, as I said to my right [V]: While welcoming the news that the support will hon. Friend the Member for Romsey and Southampton return to 80%, many people here in West Dunbartonshire North (Caroline Nokes), is a matter for the Secretary of and across Scotland regret the fact that this decision has State for Health and Social Care. I will relay the hon. been made at the last minute, when many have already Gentleman’s concerns to him, but this is driven by the made life-changing decisions in anticipation of the rate epidemiology and the health data; it is not a question of being reduced. To give those whom we will rely on to the Treasury acting arbitrarily, as he says. rebuild our economy some degree of certainty, will the Minister commit the Government to fill the gaps in the James Wild (North West Norfolk) (Con): The scheme so that freelancers and creatives—the excluded—can Government’s financial support has included the very start to grow the companies of tomorrow? welcome £200 million for hospices. However, the Norfolk Hospice in my constituency has warned that the national Steve Barclay: I draw the hon. Gentleman’s attention restrictions and the closure of charity shops will result to the future fund, which has provided additional support. in a loss of income of £100,000, so will my right On the timing of the furlough extension, I refer him to hon. Friend ensure that when the Care Minister meets 177 Lockdown: Economic Support3 NOVEMBER 2020 Lockdown: Economic Support 178 the sector tomorrow, a package of urgent support can the self-employment support scheme will also extend to be put in place for hospices, their patients and their my constituents in Scotland, ensuring that self-employed families? people are not left behind?

Steve Barclay: My hon. Friend raises an issue that Steve Barclay: As I said earlier, these are UK-wide unites the House. The huge value of the work done by schemes. We continue to listen and engage, but the the hospice movement was recognised as part of the schemes apply on a UK-wide basis. That has been the package of measures put in place by my right hon. case throughout, and that continues to be the case now. Friend the Chancellor, with £750 million of support for Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): I the charity sector and with the hospice movement being am sure that we have all heard heartbreaking stories specifically identified. I am happy to continue working about people who have been unable to claim for self- with my hon. Friend as we work together, and we employment support because they had not registered or recognise the importance of that sector. submitted a tax return for 2018-19. It seems that those people are still excluded from any support. Some of Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): Many small them have been trading for 18 months now. They are business owners have been forced to raid their personal clearly not fraudulent and they clearly deserve some savings to keep their businesses afloat over the past support; why cannot they get some? eight months, but that is not a bottomless pit. Many small business owners are not wealthy people, and the Steve Barclay: As we referred to earlier, the point is Chief Secretary to the Treasury must understand that if that the package of support includes the £9 billion of they go under, the whole company goes with them. The welfare measures and the support that is available through Treasury has now had eight months to get this scheme local authorities and targeted at their discretion. I have working. Why is it still excluding 3 million people? Does also set out that there are those within that excluded he not recognise how perilous the situation is for many population, for example those who were employed, who of those businesses? may be able to qualify for the extension, but for the reasons that we have covered in a number of earlier Steve Barclay: I drew attention earlier to the fact that replies, part of the challenge from the Public Accounts more than £13 billion had been allocated to the self- Committee has been ensuring that we have the right employed income support scheme and through the income operational controls in place, and that has been one support grant. That indicates the support that the Treasury of the difficulties with the cohorts to which the hon. has given. The hon. Gentleman draws out, as the Chair Gentleman refers. of the Treasury Committee did, the specific issues around company directors. I have set out to the House the Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Melton) (Con) [V]: The difficulty of clarifying precisely what is earned income Government’s bounce back and business interruption as opposed to dividend income, but it is worth drawing loan schemes have made a huge difference across the the House’s attention to the fact that more than £13 billion country, including the £90 million to support businesses of support has been allocated. in Rutland and Melton. What assessment has the Chief Secretary made regarding the macroeconomic impact Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab) [V]: of these loan schemes? Before lockdown 2, more than 2,000 jobs based at Steve Barclay: I very much welcome the impact that Manchester Airport were reported to be at risk. The the various support measures have had on Rutland and Governmenthaveprovidedbusinessratesrelief tothousands on the businesses in my hon. Friend’s area. As for the of retail businesses, including £700 million to the likes impact of the various measures, the Office for Budget of Tesco, which have seen huge increases in profits Responsibility produces an independent assessment of throughout lockdown. Will the Government now step that, and it will do so on 25 November. That will in to relieve 2020-21 airport business rates, following provide an updated position, addressing the impacts to the introduction of a new travel ban, by funding the which she refers. difference to local councils? Zarah Sultana (Coventry South) (Lab): While this Steve Barclay: As I mentioned earlier, within the week the Government have extended the mortgage holiday £1.1 billion of support to local authorities, we have for homeowners, they have refused to help tenants, pay given them discretion to respond to local needs, and their rent or stop them facing evictions, even if they that includes Greater Manchester as a region. On the have lost their job or been placed on furlough. How airport sector specifically, one reason why we have exactly does the Minister think that that is fair, and will allocated more than £12 billion to test and trace is that he instead commit to helping renters in Coventry South one of the key issues, as I was told by that sector, is the by immediately putting a stop to all eviction proceedings, importance of travellers being able to be tested quickly reintroducing the evictions ban and cancelling rent and released sooner than has been the case in recent arrears for all tenants? weeks. We are working extremely hard on that issue, because that is one of the key measures, alongside the Steve Barclay: There is, of course, a balance to be financial support to local authorities, that would make struck between the interests of those who are renting a real difference to the airport sector. and those who rent out properties who also have financial pressures. The hon. Lady referred to the support that John Lamont (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk) has been given, but the best support that can be given to (Con): I very much welcome the commitment that we those facing such bills is to help as many of them as heard yesterday from the Prime Minister that the furlough possible to retain their jobs, and that is fundamentally scheme will extend to Scotland whenever it is needed. what the package of support that we have put in place Can the Chief Secretary to the Treasury confirm that seeks to achieve. 179 Lockdown: Economic Support3 NOVEMBER 2020 Lockdown: Economic Support 180

Jack Brereton (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Con): Further Government have provided, such as through the grants to the points about supply chains, many manufacturers and business rate holidays, so that they can protect their in the ceramics industry in Stoke-on-Trent very much jobs and still be growing and thriving once this pandemic depend on industries such as hospitality and retail, so is beaten? will my right hon. Friend agree to look at what more support can be given to those industries where order Steve Barclay: First, I refer to the answer I gave books have severely diminished? earlier about the universal nature of the package. Another such area that my hon. Friend did not mention is the Steve Barclay: I recognise the point made by my hon. fishing sector, which was particularly impacted not only Friend. I have spoken about the impact on the sectors to through its supply of the restaurant trade but through which he refers. That is why such a comprehensive its exports, which were also hit. We have listened to package of support has been set out, including through concerns there and put in some additional support. But the job retention scheme, which will now run until the best way we will support businesses, whether in the 2 December; the generous support for the self-employed; wedding sector or elsewhere, is by getting the virus the cash grants of up to £3,000 per month for businesses; down. That is why we have taken the comprehensive the £1.1 billion of council support; and the plans to measures that we have for the next four weeks. That is extend the various loans, and indeed the future fund, to the best way to be able to open up these sectors and get the end of January.This all recognises the wider pressures the people who have been furloughed or supported to which he refers. through the self-employed scheme on to the job support scheme, where they will then qualify for the furlough Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab) [V]: bonus, which will be further support that is available. Unemployment here in the west midlands is soaring to a level that we last saw in the 1980s, but our Mayor has Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP) [V]: For all the Minister’s proved so ineffective that we have failed to secure 95% of sweet talking, the simple fact is that nearly eight months what we have asked for in our recovery plan. Yesterday after the first lockdown was imposed, millions of self- the International Monetary Fund’s chief economist employed people and small businesses are still being called on Governments to bring forward large-scale excluded from Government support. He has spoken investment to kickstart demand. In May, the Government approvingly today of comments from a recent Public set out their capital budget of £358 billion over the next Accounts Committee report, so may I draw his attention five years. When are the Government going to allocate to the Committee’s20th report of this Session, unanimously that capital budget, will the Chief Secretary maximise agreed by a Committee with a Conservative majority? what is brought forward into the eye of the storm to The report says: kickstart demand for next year, and will he, for the first “The Committee is disappointed that, so long after the beginning time, guarantee that the west midlands, at long last, will of the pandemic, HMRC has still not made sufficient use of its secure its fair share of that money? data to identify small businesses which have been left out of previous support packages, and therefore maximise taxpayer Steve Barclay: I am slightly surprised to have a question eligibility for grant support.” from a former Chief Secretary that does not recognise Can the Minister not accept that the Committee’s the infrastructure investment that the Prime Minister disappointment reflects a view widely held among all set out in the summer and that my right hon. Friend the parties in the House and that it is time for the excluded Chancellor updated the House on through his summer 3 million to be supported by actions, not just words? economic update, including the £2 billion going into green jobs and public sector decarbonisation, and the Steve Barclay: I am somewhat surprised that the hon. massive investment in High Speed 2, in road investment Gentleman talks of actions when, as a result of our strategy 2, and in control period 6 through the various ability to operate UK-wide, we have been able to support rail schemes that the Government have committed to. nearly 1 million jobs in Scotland. Some 65,000 businesses We are accelerating the delivery of that infrastructure in Scotland have benefited from the UK Government through Project Speed. loan schemes and, as of 31 August, 242,600 employments were furloughed, at a take-up rate of 10%. Significant The right hon. Gentleman is right to speak to the fact support has been offered to businesses in Scotland, as that there is a jobs challenge, and I think the concerns indeed it has been to businesses throughout the UK. It about the pressure on employment are shared across the is odd that the hon. Gentleman talks about actions and House. That is why it is so important to get the right ignores the nearly 1 million jobs that have been supported training package in place. That was addressed by my as a result of the actions that the UK Government have right hon. Friend the Chancellor on 24 September with taken. his winter plan setting out schemes such as the kickstart scheme, which is up and running and is already delivering Selaine Saxby (North Devon) (Con) [V]: Tourism results. That is how, together, we will weather the storm and hospitality businesses have worked hard to get back in terms of bringing forward infrastructure investment on their feet, so although I welcome the additional but also reskilling people where they do lose their jobs. support that my right hon. Friend has announced, will he do all he can to help them to welcome back visitors Mike Wood (Dudley South) (Con): Clearly hospitality in the spring? and retail have had a particularly difficult time since the spring, but, as hon. Friends have said, there are very Steve Barclay: I absolutely support my hon. Friend in many businesses that may not quite come under hospitality, her desire to see those businesses able to bounce back, retail or leisure but rely almost entirely on those sectors which obviously requires us to get the virus rate down. for their business. Will my right hon. Friend look at We recognise that restrictions have affected tourism and how industries such as brewing, pub supply chains, hospitality businesses in particular, which is why we events and weddings can access the support that the have put in place additional support. We will continue 181 Lockdown: Economic Support3 NOVEMBER 2020 Lockdown: Economic Support 182 to look at ways to support those industries, but the key committing £12 billion of public sector money to the to doing so is to reduce the rate of infection through the private sector for covid programmes, and doing so measures that the Prime Minister announced yesterday. without basic procurement disciplines around proven competency, value for money and minimum performance Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the Minister targets? for all that he has done; it is good to have the help. Steve Barclay: That is simply not correct because the Yesterday, the Prime Minister assured me that aid Department of Health, to which we have allocated was coming to Northern Ireland businesses whose trade funding for Track and Trace, is subject to managing is affected by the lockdown here on the mainland. Will public money rules in the same way as any other the Minister outline what form the aid will take for Department. It is subject to the decisions of its accounting suppliers who have to cease operations? We should be officer and its Ministers in the usual way, so the normal ever mindful of the regional differences, with the Northern managing public money rules would apply. Ireland circuit break and tiers 1, 2 and 3 here on the mainland. On Thursday night, there will be a total Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): I am lockdown here, whereas we will come out of the circuit terribly sorry, but I missed out the hon. Member for break next week. What help will there be for businesses St Ives—Derek Thomas. in Northern Ireland whose supplies travel across the water? Derek Thomas (St Ives) (Con): Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I hope it is worth waiting for. Steve Barclay: The hon. Gentleman is right to talk Can I thank the Chief Secretary for all that is being about the impact on businesses in Northern Ireland and done to help my constituents in west Cornwall and on part of that coming through its interconnectivity with Scilly? One of the great successes of recent years is the the rest of the United Kingdom. As I said in an earlier job growth across Cornwall, and that is because small answer, we will update the Northern Ireland Executive businesses have been set up by entrepreneurs—individuals this week on the enhanced Barnett guarantee, but that who know they cannot get a big job in big business, unprecedented action taken to give an up-front guarantee because they do not exist in Cornwall, so they have set will enable the Northern Ireland Executive to provide up their business. The problem is that they are very support to businesses. Of course, it will be for them to early in their business, and they are growing, maturing determine the exact scope of that business support. and flourishing, but this year has been a disaster for them. They are at a point now where they just do not Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con) [V]: I know if it is worth continuing, because of his second congratulate the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and lockdown being announced, and they just do not know the Government team on the support that they have what the future holds. Will the Chief Secretary look given the British people during this pandemic. I understand very carefully at how we can encourage these people to that No. 10 has confirmed that the Treasury has done a stick with it, but also look at, as we have discussed full economic impact assessment; will the Chief Secretary already this afternoon many times, the support that is confirm that and say when it will be published? It will available to these fledgling businesses so they really have be very helpful if it is published before tomorrow’s vote. the finances to sustain these jobs? We must make sure these businesses can be part of the recovery that we will Steve Barclay: As Members would expect, all decisions so badly need next year and beyond. are informed by economic analysis. In terms of an impact assessment, the Office for Budget Responsibility Steve Barclay: As my hon. Friend knows, it was will update its forecasts on 25 November. It is right that largely down to his representations that specific support we have an independent forecast, and that will be produced was put in place—for example, to maintain the ferry in a matter of weeks. link that I know was critical for his constituents—and he deserves great credit for the convincing case that he Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op): Yesterday, presented to the Treasury, which secured that additional the Prime Minister said that he will be doing much funding. On the wider point about support to the more to support the voluntary sector. Bearing in mind business community, it is in recognition of the importance that 10% of charities are likely to fold, with a deficit of of those small businesses that the Government have £10 billion accumulated over six months, what more allocated over £13 billion of support to the self-employment will the Treasury be putting on the table and when will income support scheme, but it is also why the Chancellor that be apparent? has put in place additional measures, such as extending the loans that are available to help those businesses get Steve Barclay: As the Prime Minister has already set through this period to, hopefully, the more beneficial out, we put in place a £750 million package of support period as we come out of the winter period. for the charity sector,as part of the more than £200 billion of support that we have given. As he has also said, and Aaron Bell (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Con): I thank clearly demonstrated over recent months, he will continue the Chief Secretary for his statement, and I thank all to listen and adapt as circumstances require. the Treasury team for all the work they have done throughout this pandemic and the agility they have Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Isleworth) (Lab) [V]: In shown in rapidly changing circumstances. Can I also response to earlier questions, the Minister said the put on record my thanks to those people who have had Government were reluctant to extend additional financial to implement that? The IT systems in HMRC have support to the self-employed because of the need for stood up incredibly well to a lot of brand new schemes. strict financial controls, so why are the Chancellor’s My constituents in Newcastle-under-Lyme will welcome team not as concerned about financial discipline when the extension and enhancement of furlough and the 183 Lockdown: Economic Support3 NOVEMBER 2020 Lockdown: Economic Support 184

[Aaron Bell] Britain in a way that the Mayor of the Liverpool city region and others were not, which I felt was an unfair self-employed scheme. For their benefit and for the characterisation of their position, the point is that we benefit of the whole House, could he set out how the need to deploy schemes quickly, which is why we have generosity of those schemes compares internationally taken the approach that we have. and how we are doing in this country compared with the rest of the world? Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con): I am sorry, at the end of this session, to have to raise the issue of Steve Barclay: First, I thank my hon. Friend for furlough yet again but, as my right hon. Friend knows, recognising the huge contribution of officials in HMRC, the economies of north Wales and the north-west of the Treasury and, indeed, across Whitehall in ensuring England are very closely integrated and Welsh tourism that that business support was delivered at the pace it and leisure businesses in particular are heavily dependent has been. On the international comparison, I draw my on trade from across that border. The Welsh lockdown hon. Friend’s attention to the report of the director of imposed by the Welsh Government is due to come to an the IMF just last week, which I think is probably the end on 9 November—some four days after the lockdown best illustration of the way that the UK package of in England is anticipated to begin. Welsh leisure and support is seen as offering one of the most comprehensive tourism businesses will not be precluded from reopening packages of support. It was recognised by the IMF and by the Welsh Government, but in reality it will be I think that shows where it stands in terms of international purposeless for them to do so because the trade from comparison. England will not be there. Can my right hon. Friend say whether Welsh businesses that are affected by lockdown Matthew Pennycook (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab): measures imposed in England will be able to access the When concerns were voiced earlier about the implications coronavirus job retention scheme? that flow from the fact that rateable values in some parts of the country are far higher than in others, the Steve Barclay: I know that my right hon. Friend is a Chief Secretary could only point to discretionary grant strong supporter of the Union and part of the strength funding. However, not only has the detailed guidance of the furlough scheme has been its ability to provide that would allow local authorities to distribute that support across the United Kingdom; it is a UK-wide discretionary funding not yet been published, but it will scheme. Thanks to the Treasury’s ability to operate a be distributed on the basis of a flat rate of £20 per head, UK-wide scheme, we have been able to put in place irrespective of geographical area, as he knows. So can more than £200 billion of support—the comprehensive the Chief Secretary first ensure that that guidance is package that I mentioned a moment ago—which is why published promptly, so that local authorities can plan, it stands international comparison in terms of its scale but also look again at better tailoring support to account and speed. That was recognised by the IMF director for variations in rateable value across the country? just last week, and the furlough will continue to be a UK-wide scheme. Steve Barclay: I will take away the fair point that the hon. Gentleman raises about publishing guidance and Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): In seek to respond to it constructively. In terms of the order to allow the safe exit of hon. Members participating £20 a head, often representations have been made to me in this item of business and the safe arrival of those in the Chamber that it is vital for the Government to anticipating the next item of business, we will suspend move at pace to deliver schemes quickly, and to do so the House for three minutes. fairly. Without reprising the previous urgent question where the Mayor of Greater Manchester, according to 1.57 pm the Labour Front-Bench team, was acting for Great Sitting suspended. 185 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe 186

Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe I can assure the House that the safety and good treatment of all dual national British detainees in Iran remains a top priority of the UK Government. We will 2 pm continue to lobby at all levels for their permanent Tulip Siddiq (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab) (Urgent release on humanitarian grounds so that they can return Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign, home safely to their loved ones. Commonwealth and Development Affairs, if he will make a statement on Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe Tulip Siddiq: Before I begin, I would like to thank the Speaker’s Office for granting this urgent question, because The Minister for the Middle East and North Africa I am aware that there is a lot of parliamentary business (James Cleverly): I am grateful to the hon. Member for on at the moment. Hampstead and Kilburn (Tulip Siddiq) for raising this The case of my constituent is well-rehearsed. She was question. We are deeply concerned that Iran has issued arrested in Iran in 2016 and was handed a five-year new charges against Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe. This is sentence. We had dared to dream that she would be indefensible and unacceptable. We are relieved that the returning home next year in April, until last week, when groundless new trial, which commenced on 2 November, she was told that she would be facing new trumped-up was adjourned and that Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe remains charges. As the Minister has pointed out, she went to on furlough, but we will continue to call on Iran to court yesterday prepared to put forward her defence, make Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe’s release permanent. and she was told that her case had been adjourned. Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe has told her family that she On 29 October, we summoned the Iranian ambassador is sleepless with worry anticipating the next move from to make clear our deep concerns about these new charges. the Iranian authorities. We fully support the family’s request for officials from the embassy in Tehran to attend any court hearings. Before I ask the Minister some questions, I want to The UK Government issued a note of avowal formally raise the issue of the £400 million debt that we owe Iran. requesting UK Government attendance at Mrs Zaghari- The date for the court hearing for the debt was meant to Ratcliffe’s recent 2 November hearing. So far, regrettably, be today, but last week we were told it was being we have not been granted access to Iranian judicial postponed. On the very same day last week, Nazanin hearings of any of our dual British national detainees. Zaghari-Ratcliffe was told that she faces trumped-up We will continue to firmly lobby for access to them. new charges against her, that she has to go to court and that she may be sent back to prison. That was not a On 22 September,we summoned the Iranian ambassador coincidence; it is a punishment. and handed over a letter from E3 Foreign Ministers about the human rights situation in Iran, including our I want to ask the Minister the following questions. shared concern about the arbitrary detention of dual Did the Government anticipate or risk-assess the nationals. The ambassador in Tehran will continue to consequences for Nazanin when they agreed to postpone raise this with his Iranian counterpart. The Foreign the IMS debt hearing? Secondly, as we know, Nazanin Secretary has spoken directly to Foreign Minister Zarif is not the only British citizen being held as a political three times since the summer and continues to raise the hostage in Iran. How many prisoners have the Government situation of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe and the other managed to get access to since the British embassy in UK dual nationals in the strongest terms. Iran reopened in 2015? Is it more than zero? The Minister has touched on UK officials not being present Since the Foreign Secretary was last at the Dispatch at Nazanin’s court hearing yesterday. Will he clarify Box both he and Foreign, Commonwealth and exactly what date they requested to attend and whether Development Office officials have been in regular contact it was simply asked for, or was it asserted as a consular with Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe and her family. The Foreign right? Finally, can the Minister give any examples of Secretary has spoken with both Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe how Nazanin’s status of diplomatic protection has been and her husband, when he reiterated that the UK or will be deployed by our Government to make a Government, from the Prime Minister down, remain material difference in her case? committed to doing everything we can for her. I know that the Government have continually denied The UK Government continue to engage with the link between the debt that we owe Iran and Nazanin’s international partners and directly with the Government imprisonment, but burying our heads in the sand is of Iran on the full range of issues of interest to the UK. costing my constituent her life. I know the Government Our priority remains to prevent Iran from acquiring have a lot on their plate at the moment with the pandemic, nuclear weapons capability, to promote stability and but I know the Minister well and I know he wants to security in the region, to secure the release of all our bring Nazanin home. I am asking him to do a bit more dual national detainees, and to keep the diplomatic and to try harder to resolve this debt issue, so that we door open for a new talks with Iran. can end the cycle of despair for Nazanin and her family. Alongside our E3 partners, we are committed to the I will finish by saying that this is my sixth urgent nuclear deal with Iran—the joint comprehensive plan of question about Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe in this House, action, or JCPOA—as the best means available to monitor and I sincerely hope it is the last one I will be asking. and constrain Iran’s nuclear programme. As we have said before, we are deeply concerned by Iranian non- James Cleverly: I pay tribute to the hon. Lady, for compliance. Iran must engage with the dispute resolution whom I have a huge amount of respect, for her tireless mechanism, which we triggered with France and Germany campaigning on behalf of her constituent and more on 14 January, and return to compliance. We also widely on the other British dual national detainees in continue to have serious concerns regarding the implications Iran. It is commendable. She raises the question of the for the security of the region with the expiry date of the delay in the hearing about the IMS debt. As she said in United Nations conventional arms embargo on 18 October. her comments, these are unrelated issues. However, the 187 Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe3 NOVEMBER 2020 Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe 188

[James Cleverly] prison during a second trial. It is welcome that the Foreign Secretary has made representations generally adjournment of the November hearing is at the request about Nazanin’s case, but can the Minister say whether of the Iranian Ministry of Defence. It would be the Government have made representations, through inappropriate for me to comment further on ongoing the Foreign Secretary, specifically on the issue of the legal positions in regard to that. return to prison during a second trial? The hon. Lady also speaks about our requests for Almost two months ago, I asked the Foreign Secretary access to Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe and the other British about the historical debt that is owed, and whether he dual national detainees. That is something we continue agrees with the Defence Secretary, who acknowledged to do. Requesting does not guarantee us access—indeed, that there is a debt to be paid; the Foreign Secretary demanding does not guarantee us access. What we are said that he did. At an Iranian Foreign Ministry press doing at every stage, while working with the Iranian briefing yesterday,officials repeated that they are pursuing Government at every level, is what we genuinely believe this debt. No one in this House accepts the legitimacy is in the best interests of our dual national detainees to of any direct link between the debt and the arbitrary secure their permanent release on humanitarian grounds, detention of dual nationals, including Nazanin Zaghari- so that they can return home and be with their families. Ratcliffe, Anousheh Ashoori and others. However, there is the prospect of our putting our relations with Iran on Tom Tugendhat (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con): I a better footing if we resolve this issue, which has pay tribute to the hon. Member for Hampstead and dragged on for decades, in which there is a clear legal Kilburn (Tulip Siddiq) for securing this urgent question obligation on the UK, and in regard to which the on such an important matter. Her campaign for her Defence Secretary has described the UK’s behaviour as constituent Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe has been inspiring, “un-British” and obfuscatory. but the Minister knows that many other Brits are being I was very concerned to hear the Minister’s response held. Will he please confirm that he will be dealing with to the question that my hon. Friend the Member for all Brits being held by the Iranian regime? Will he also Hampstead and Kilburn asked about the date for a agree that the attempts by the Iranian Government to hearing. Will the Minister tell us what steps he has connect the IMS debt and the release of Nazanin taken in the last two months to progress this issue and Zaghari-Ratcliffe would seem to suggest that she is not find a resolution that ensures that this historical debt being held on the charges that they claim, but actually is does not present an ongoing obstacle to the safe and just a hostage? That would cheapen Iranian justice. swift return of Nazanin and other British-Iranian dual Surely the Iranian Government would never argue that nationals? Does he agree with the right hon. Member case again. for South West Surrey (Jeremy Hunt) that if Nazanin is released soon, the acknowledgement of our historical James Cleverly: I thank my hon. Friend for his question. debt will have paid an important part in the release? The British Government’s position is clear. We do not link this to the debt, but we do not dispute that there is a The Minister knows that this is not a party political 40-year-old debt, and we continue to explore options to matter, and that Members in all parts of the House have resolve it. I will not comment further, because this is an voiced their full support for Nazanin’s release. As we ongoing situation. He is right to raise the plight of approach the fifth Christmas that Nazanin will be unable other British dual nationals in detention in Iran. We to spend with her family, I hope that he can give us his make the case strongly and regularly for the full, permanent assurance that everything in the Government’s power is release—not just release on furlough—of all British being done to bring her safely home. dual nationals held in detention. James Cleverly: I can only reiterate the point I made Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab): I add my voice to those about the debt. We recognise that the debt is due, and thanking my hon. Friend the Member for Hampstead we are working to resolve this. It is a 40-year-old debt, and Kilburn (Tulip Siddiq) for her refusal to give up, and we are exploring options to bring this to a conclusion. her persistence on behalf of her constituent, and for It is not possible for me to comment further or in more ensuring that the voice of Nazanin and her family is detail on this, and I am sure that the hon. Lady will heard in this House and beyond. As my hon. Friend understand why. said, it is four and a half years since Nazanin was first On the new charges being brought against Mrs Zaghari- arbitrarily detained by the Iranian authorities, and just Ratcliffe, our position is clear: they are indefensible and as the end of her original five-year sentence is in sight, completely unacceptable. The hon. Lady mentions the she faces the terrifying prospect of a second trial—for other British dual nationals in incarceration. Our passion which there is no evidence or legal justification—for for securing their permanent release is just as strong as more crimes that she did not commit, which could our passion in the case of Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe. As I extend her detention still further. said, the Prime Minister, the Foreign Secretary, I and, The adjournment of Nazanin’s hearing on Monday indeed, the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development delays a potential further miscarriage of justice, but Office have this as an absolute priority. I have already also any prospect of a conclusion to a truly unimaginable mentioned the number of occasions on which the Foreign ordeal. We believe that the threat of reincarceration, the Secretary has spoken directly with his opposite numbers, constant harassment by members of Iran’s revolutionary the times when the Iranian ambassador has been called guard, the repeated delay to judicial hearings, and the in and, indeed, when Her Majesty’s ambassador in levelling of false charges are tantamount to mental Tehran has raised this issue. It is and will remain a top torture, and I would be grateful if the Minister told the priority for the Government. We welcome the fact that House whether the Government share that view. They Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe has not been sent back to prison. have rightly voiced opposition to Nazanin’s return to However, that is not enough. We continue to work for 189 Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe3 NOVEMBER 2020 Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe 190 her full, permanent release and that of the other British what extent does he feel that his interlocutors, Ministers dual nationals in incarceration. We will not rest until Zarif and Araghchi, can have influence since the IRGC, that is accomplished. which is actually pulling the strings, is very much separate from those to whom he speaks regularly? Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con) [V]: I congratulate the hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn (Tulip James Cleverly: I thank my right hon. Friend for his Siddiq) on securing the urgent question on this vital work in this role prior to my tenure. He makes a strong matter and the cross-party agreement that Nazanin point about the need to maintain working relations should be returned to the UK, with all the charges with a number of individuals in the Iranian Government, dropped. Recent reports suggest that the Iranian and we seek to do so. Ultimately, revolutionary guard corps has constantly harassed Nazanin I am not sure it is useful for me to speculate about the while she has been in Iran. Does my right hon. Friend outcome of elections or which individuals may be in agree that such behaviour is totally and utterly unacceptable what posts, because the UK’s position will be unchanged: and that we need to proscribe the IRGC in its entirely to the detention is illegitimate, all the British dual national send the strongest possible signal to Iran that its behaviour detainees should be released and we will continue to cannot be tolerated? work with whoever is in whichever role to achieve that. James Cleverly: My hon. Friend will know that it is a Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op) [V]: long-standing convention that we do not discuss future I thank my colleague, my hon. Friend the Member for proscriptions or sanctions. He makes a broader point Hampstead and Kilburn (Tulip Siddiq), who has worked about the international standing of Iran. I can only so tirelessly on this campaign. Perhaps we might try a assume that Iran wishes to be brought back into the slightly different approach and tone. I have had the international fold, but, for that, its behaviour must change. privilege of conversations with Justin Welby,the Archbishop As I said, we regard the treatment of Mrs Zaghari- of Canterbury, regarding an all-faith delegation to Tehran Ratcliffe and the other British dual national detainees to discuss the cases. Possibly, there is a chance that an to be completely unacceptable and we strongly urge the all-party delegation could go to Iran specifically for Iranian regime to do the right thing and release all that purpose. At the moment, I know that Iran will not British dual national detainees on humanitarian grounds accept delegations, but perhaps the mood music will so that they can return permanently to their families change after today and we might get, particularly, an and loved ones. all-faith delegation. If the ministerial team made that possible, perhaps we would get some beneficial results. Brendan O’Hara (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) [V]: Let me once again put on record the SNP’s unequivocal James Cleverly: I thank the hon. Gentleman for condemnation of the Iranian Government for the putting forward ideas he believes may be useful to bring outrageous detention of Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe. I repeat about the goals that we all want. I am unsure about the our call for her immediate and unconditional release. effectiveness of that one, but I am willing to receive any Nazanin, her husband Richard and their young daughter ideas from him. We will continue working, and to have been treated appallingly by the regime in Tehran. explore ideas with whoever puts them forward. I commend If, as the Minister says, this is the Prime Minister’s top the hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn for engaging priority, I feel she will be let down again, having been let with us regularly. Ultimately, we are all—across party down by him while he was Foreign Secretary. and right across the House—trying to achieve a resolution and to have the British dual national detainees returned The UK Government have finally acknowledged that home. the outstanding debt owed to Iran is a major factor in the ongoing illegal detention of Nazanin. What discussions Alexander Stafford (Rother Valley) (Con): I thank my have been had to explore practical and legal ways to right hon. Friend for his commitment to Nazanin’s case repay the debt? What advice has the Department sought and for taking such a clear position that she should not and received on whether that could be done in the form be sent back to jail. Does he agree that Iran’s attempt to of humanitarian aid supplies? exploit dual nationals for political gain is unacceptable and that we should continue to lobby strongly for their James Cleverly: As I have said on a number of occasions, release? the debt, which we recognise, is unrelated. We are seeking ways to resolve this 40-year-old debt, but I am James Cleverly: I thank my hon. Friend for his question. unwilling to go into further details about that as it is an Ultimately, he is right: the responsibility lies with the ongoing situation. I would, however, echo the hon. Government of Iran, the Iranian regime. We remain Member’s point that the incarceration of all British committed to securing immediate, full and permanent dual national detainees in Iran is unacceptable and they release. While we are pleased that Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe should be released. has not been returned to Evin prison, that is not the end of the matter. We will continue to work to have her and Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con): I the other detainees return home. also pay tribute to the hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn (Tulip Siddiq) for the tireless and impressive Layla Moran (Oxford West and Abingdon) (LD): I work she has done on behalf of her constituent. What thank the Minister for his responses so far and I share assessment has my right hon. Friend made of the likely the House’s view that this is absolutely ridiculous, that impact of June’s presidential election in Tehran on we are still here talking not just about Nazanin, but Nazanin’s case? Obviously, Quds commander Qasem about all those political prisoners who are being detained. Soleimani will not be in the frame, but he was the front I am particularly concerned about Anousheh Ashouri runner. Does my right hon. Friend feel he can make and his susceptibility to covid-19. Specifically, which progress where previously that was not the case? To other detainees is the Minister aware of who also have 191 Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe3 NOVEMBER 2020 Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe 192

[Layla Moran] Tonbridge and Malling (Tom Tugendhat) in that Nazanin is not the only one who has fallen foul of a malign Iran’s susceptibility to covid-19, and what assurances will he attack on human rights. give the House that robust conversations have been had The UN conventional arms embargo on Iran expired about their getting specific medical attention for the last month, in line with the 2015 nuclear deal, which those comorbidities? failed to address Iran’s human rights abuses and detention of foreign citizens. The UK’s decision to abstain on the James Cleverly: The welfare of all our British dual UN Security Council resolution to extend the embargo nationals imprisoned in Iran remains a priority, and we was regrettable. Will my right hon. Friend explain how have raised their cases at the most senior level, in the UK plans to address Iran’s regional aggressions, particular with discussions about health vulnerabilities. which represent one of the most pressing challenges to Ultimately—I find myself coming back to this point, international peace and security and British foreign but it is the fundamental one—the very best thing that policy interests? we can do for all of them is to secure their permanent release back to their families at the earliest opportunity. James Cleverly: We have long been clear about our That is what we will continue to work towards. concerns about Iran’s continued destabilising activity Paul Bristow (Peterborough) (Con): I, too, commend throughout the region, including its political, financial the hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn (Tulip and military support for a number of militant and Siddiq) for her relentless work on behalf of her constituent. proscribed groups, including Hezbollah in Lebanon I also commend the Minister for all the work that he is and Syria, militias in Iraq, and the Houthis in Yemen. doing to secure the release of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe. We will continue to work with international partners to Will he join me in urging the Iranian Government now promote stability and security in the region and to do to release all UK dual nationals who are being arbitrarily everything we can to ensure that that activity ceases. detained and allow them to return home to their families in the UK? Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab) [V]: I also thank my hon. Friend the Member for Hampstead James Cleverly: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. and Kilburn (Tulip Siddiq) for championing the rights That is in the gift of the Iranian regime. We will continue of her constituent Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe and for to call on it to do the right thing, which is to release all securing this urgent question. The United Nations has British dual nationals in incarceration and allow them ruled that Nazanin’s imprisonment is unlawful and to return. ordered Iran to release her. What more can the British Government do to work through the wider international Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP): I wholeheartedly community to put pressure on Iran to follow its international support the comments made by other hon. Members. I obligations? urge the Minister, the Foreign Secretary and, indeed, the Prime Minister to bolster efforts to bring Nazanin James Cleverly: The hon. Gentleman makes a good home. Her life of fear is similar to that lived by many point. It is good that we have international support on religious minorities in Iran. Earlier this year, the Christian our calls, which reflects our belief that the charges are human rights activist Mary Fatemeh Mohammadi received illegitimate and that her detention and that of other a suspended prison sentence of three months and a British dual nationals is unacceptable. We will continue directive to receive a flogging of 10 lashes. What is the to work with international partners and directly with Minister doing to protect religious minorities in Iran? Iran to secure all their releases, and we are grateful for the international support that we have received on this James Cleverly: We continue to have concerns about issue. Iran’shuman rights record and the treatment of minorities. Although that is an allied issue, it is separate to that of Jeremy Wright (Kenilworth and Southam) (Con): I Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe and the other dual national detainees. congratulate the hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn We continue to work with Iran at all levels to encourage (Tulip Siddiq) on not only what she said today but it to improve its human rights record. all she has said for her constituent. I echo the call for Tom Randall (Gedling) (Con): I also commend the Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe’sproceedings to be ended forthwith, hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn (Tulip Siddiq) but if that is not the case, I am sure my right hon. for her efforts in this area. Can my right hon. Friend Friend will accept that the fairness and transparency of confirm that his Department is doing everything in its the next set of proceedings against her will become power to ensure that Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe receives all fundamental. Will he redouble his efforts to ensure that the necessary medical care during this difficult time? those proceedings are observed by a representative of the UK Government and/or those who represent James Cleverly: We regularly raise health and welfare international organisations? I ask him to accept and to concerns with the Iranian Government at the most communicate that if these proceedings are fair—if these senior levels. The Foreign Secretary continues to raise charges are fairly laid and are to be fairly tried—the the UK’s concerns with his opposite number Foreign Iranians have no reason to prevent the world from Minister Zarif. We will continue to raise such issues seeing them. until these people are allowed home. James Cleverly: My right hon. and learned Friend Christian Wakeford (Bury South) (Con): I, too, thank makes a very good point. We are seeking to be allowed the hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn (Tulip to attend any future hearings. Our embassy in Tehran Siddiq) for securing this important urgent question. I formally requested that last week, and we have consistently echo the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for made the point with the Iranian Ministry of Foreign 193 Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe3 NOVEMBER 2020 Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe 194

Affairs. We are committed to securing the immediate nationals in detention would be a very positive step in and permanent release of all arbitrarily detained British the right direction, and we will continue to call on them dual nationals. The point he makes about the Iranian to do that. regime acting transparently is a good one. David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP): From Craigend Kenny MacAskill (East Lothian) (SNP) [V]: The Iranian down to Carmyle, my inbox last week was flooded by regime’sbehaviour is reprehensible, but there are moderate constituents wanting to see Nazanin brought home. voices within Iranian society,including President Rouhani. Given that I think most fair-minded people would agree Does the Minister accept that unilateral action by the that the Prime Minister, when he was Foreign Secretary, USA, including targeted executions, worsens the situation very much bungled things last time around, can the for all? Will he therefore ensure that the UK’s diplomatic Minister tell us what the Prime Minister is doing personally efforts to ensure Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe’s release are in to try to intervene in this case and raise it at the highest line with those of European partners, not those of an levels of Government? American President, whoever is elected today? James Cleverly: I have spoken with the Prime Minister about this issue, and I know that it remains a priority James Cleverly: The hon. Gentleman makes a good for him. It is very much a priority for the Foreign point. The Iranian people are famed through history for Secretary, me and the FCDO. I can assure the hon. their science and culture, and our criticism is not of the Gentleman and the House of our passion for working broader Iranian people; it is of the behaviour of the towards the permanent release of British dual nationals Iranian Government. I would be very uncomfortable in detention; it remains an absolute priority for us, and making comments that might be perceived to give excuses we will continue doing what we can to bring about their to those in the Iranian regime who seek to arbitrarily permanent release. Our actions will be relentlessly focused detain Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe and others. It is their on that, and I can assure him that it remains a priority actions that we should be focused on. It is their choice throughout Government. to detain these people, and it is in their gift to release them. Weshould be relentlessly focused on their behaviour John Howell (Henley) (Con): In view of the growing and the decisions that they have made. normalisation between Arab states and Israel in an anti-Iran alliance targeted at its human rights abuses Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op) [V]: I join and its regional aggression, how is the Foreign Office others in recognising the determination and commitment going to tap into this source of growing antagonism of my hon. Friend the Member for Hampstead and towards what Iran is doing in order to achieve Nazanin’s Kilburn (Tulip Siddiq) on this matter for her constituent. release? This has gone on for five years. The Government granted James Cleverly: I think there is widespread support Nazanin diplomatic protection status over a year ago. for the UK’s attempts to bring our dual nationals home. Can the Minister tell us what has changed in the I cannot speak on behalf of other Governments, but I Government’s approach since then and what difference hope that Iran will have seen that there is international that has made? Many of my constituents who share a support for us. Ultimately, as I have said in response to deep concern for Nazanin’s future are wondering what previous questions, there is an opportunity now for Iran difference that made. to reset its international reputation by doing the right thing and permanently releasing the British dual nationals James Cleverly: Our ability to support Mrs Zaghari- in detention. Ratcliffe is determined in large part by the behaviour of the Iranian Government. We have made it clear on Kim Johnson (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab): I congratulate numerous occasions that we want to have access to our my hon. Friend the Member for Hampstead and Kilburn dual national detainees. We now have the opportunity (Tulip Siddiq) on securing this important urgent question. to speak directly with Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe, which is The postponement of the new trial of Nazanin Zaghari- welcome. But ultimately, we will continue to do what we Ratcliffe on Monday will have had a major impact on believe to be in her best interests and those of the other her mental health. She has been unlawfully held in Iran detained British dual nationals, and we will continue for four years, separated from her husband and daughter. working with the Iranian Government, within the As has already been discussed and commented on, her limitations that they impose, to secure their permanent imprisonment is linked to the £400 million debt that the release. UK owes Iran. The case of Nazanin is a national tragedy. Can the Minister tell the House how many Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Melton) (Con) [V]: If other British citizens are imprisoned in Iran and what Iran is going to come in from the cold, it has to start to the Government are doing to secure their release—and comply with basic values of international law. Does my when? right hon. Friend agree that that starts with its respecting James Cleverly: I have already explained that the basic principles of human rights and ending its policy International Military Services debt is a separate issue of industrialised hostage diplomacy? This current policy and one we are working on. Ultimately, our efforts are of taking dual nationals such as Nazanin hostage shows to secure the release of all British dual nationals in that it has zero intentions of ever engaging meaningfully incarceration, and that will continue to be a priority of with the international rules-based system. this Government. James Cleverly: Ultimately, we do want to see the Antony Higginbotham (Burnley) (Con): Iran has long Iranian Government come back into the international walked the knife-edge of what is and is not acceptable sphere, but the decisions that will enable them to do so under the joint comprehensive plan of action, exposing are in their gift. Their permanent release of British dual the agreement’s significant flaws in the process; it is 195 Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe3 NOVEMBER 2020 Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe 196

[Antony Higginbotham] Dave Doogan (Angus) (SNP): I too commend the hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn (Tulip Siddiq). clear that it is not deterring Iran’s actions, either in the I wish to reassure her that civil society across these region or with respect to dual nationals. I recognise the islands is engaged with and vexed about the situation of Government’sreluctance to walk away from the agreement Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe. Many Angus constituents without something else being in place, but we cannot standinsolidaritywiththehon.Memberandherconstituent, reward bad behaviour or this hostage diplomacy. I and with her desire to see her returned home. therefore urge the Minister to give full consideration to While serving as Foreign Secretary, the Prime Minister what might be the point at which we have to walk away, made a difficult situation much worse with, let us call and to reconsider the arms embargo. them, those unhelpful remarks about Nazanin. Now that he is Prime Minister, instead of a concerted effort James Cleverly: As the Foreign Secretary made clear, marshalling the entire resources of the state to liberate the JCPOA is not perfect. However, while it continues her and seeking to right his wrong, we have witnessed a to offer some benefits in constraining and verifying total collapse of UK international relations and regular Iran’snuclear programme, and in the absence of something statecraft. When will the Minister jumpstart the Department better, we will continue to support it. It would be into life and ensure that UK nationals, starting with inappropriate for me to speculate on what future actions Nazanin, can return home to their families, as many the Government might take in relation to Iran. other states have achieved for their citizens detained in Iran? The problem is that the Minister has said repeatedly Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab): I commend this afternoon that they will continue working, but it my hon. Friend the Member for Hampstead and Kilburn seems to many of us that what they are doing is not (Tulip Siddiq). However, we need to note that a key working. reason why we are in such a mess with the Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe case is that the former Foreign Secretary, James Cleverly: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the who in spite of his incompetence was promoted by the answer I gave some moments ago. Conservative party to the post of Prime Minister, was, as usual, not paying attention to detail. Instead, he Scott Benton (Blackpool South) (Con): As well as decided to make a public statement that Nazanin was destabilising the region and having a long history of “simply teaching people journalism”. Similarly,the Scottish financing global terror, we must not overlook the Iranian Sikh, Jagtar Singh Johal, has been imprisoned in India regime’s human rights abuses and their detention of for the past three years. Despite his family’s lawyer British citizens. Indeed, there was no mention in the alleging that he has faced torture and despite repeated 2015 nuclear deal of either financing global terror or requests, since taking office the Foreign Secretary has human rights abuses. The Prime Minister has been not even had the decency, has not bothered, to meet the quite right to call out the shortcomings of that deal. despairing family. Instead of constantly delegating to Does my right hon. Friend feel it is finally time to look others, such as the Minister here, when will the Foreign again and call for a new comprehensive agreement with Secretary finally get a grip, do his job properly and help Iran? those Brits languishing abroad? James Cleverly: My hon. Friend asks a very good question. As long as the JCPOA can offer some benefit James Cleverly: The actions of Iran this week show to constraining Iran’s pursuit of a nuclear programme that the reason British dual nationals are being detained and, as I said, in the absence of something better, we arbitrarily is that the Iranian regime choose to do so. To will continue to support it. We do raise human rights, hand them opportunities to make excuses and to externalise for example, at the various highest levels, and we do their actions is deeply inappropriate. I urge the hon. take action alongside our friends in the international Gentleman to reflect carefully. He is a deeply honourable community. We have been clear that we need to find a person—I know him personally—but I think it is an long-term solution to address the actions across the error to hand them an opportunity to externalise the region that Iran is taking. decisions that they have taken. Janet Daby (Lewisham East) (Lab) [V]: I am grateful Elliot Colburn (Carshalton and Wallington) (Con): I for the urgent question from my hon. Friend the Member too extend my thanks to the hon. Member for Hampstead for Hampstead and Kilburn (Tulip Siddiq) and for it and Kilburn (Tulip Siddiq), and to the Carshalton and being granted. The Foreign Secretary and the Minister Wallington residents who have contacted me about are fully aware of my constituent Mr Anoosheh Ashoori, Nazanin. The Minister mentioned bringing Iran back who is currently being held in prison in Iran. Do the into the international fold. May I seek his assurance UK Government class Mr Ashoori as having been that that is very much dependent on Iran’s compliance targeted because of his dual nationality, and can the with international law, respect for human rights, and, Minister explain precisely what steps have been taken to ultimately, the release of British dual nationals such as secure his release in the light of the impact of the Nazanin? pandemic on prisoner safety? James Cleverly: My hon. Friend makes a very good James Cleverly: The hon. Lady raises an important point. It is exactly behaviour of that kind that would see point about the health of the British dual nationals held a road map for Iran being brought back into the in incarceration. It is an issue that we take very seriously international fold. In this instance, we ultimately wish and have raised directly with the Iranian regime. I to see something very simple: the permanent release of return to the point that we continue to work at every all British dual national detainees. That would be a level, both from London and with our post in Tehran, positive step—perhaps the first—in the right direction to secure the permanent release of all the British dual for Iran. nationals in detention. 197 3 NOVEMBER 2020 198

Personal Statement Food Labelling (Environmental Sustainability) 2.47 pm Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order Dr Rosena Allin-Khan (Tooting) (Lab): With your No. 23) permission, Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to make an apology to the House. 2.48 pm The Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards and Chris Grayling (Epsom and Ewell) (Con): I beg to the Committee on Standards have found that I have move, breached paragraphs 15 and 16 of the Members’ code That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require food manufacturers of conduct in the inappropriate use of House stationery to label products to indicate the environmental sustainability of and that I committed a breach of the code in using their origins; and for connected purposes. contact details for non-parliamentary purposes. I will We face a biodiversity crisis both here in the United accept that this is the third time that I have been found Kingdom and across the world. Around the world, the to have breached the rules, despite having previously World Wide Fund for Nature’s most recent “Living reassured the Commissioner that I now understood the Planet” report shows a massive decline in wildlife rules in relation to stationery. Of course, I fully accept populations—down by about 68% since 1970. Here in their ruling, and I volunteered to pay back the cost of our country, many much-loved species, such as the the stationery and have already done so. I apologise to hedgehog, are facing a catastrophic decline in their the House and to you for my breach of the rules. The numbers. There are numerous reasons for this huge loss Committee further requested that I meet the Chair and of plant and animal species.They range from the continuous other members to agree steps on how to ensure no lapse erosion of habitats to ill-judged practices in food growing from the highest possible standards required and that and manufacturing. None of this is news, but as we this should be periodically reviewed. I really look forward enter 2021—a year when the future of our environment to working with the Chair and other members to this will be top of the global agenda both in China, at the end. Finally, I thank the members of the Standards special conference looking at biodiversity issues, and Committee and the Commissioner for Standards for all later in the year here, with the COP 26 summit—surely their work. [Interruption.] the time has come for global action to halt this catastrophic decline. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): I thank the hon. Lady for her personal statement. Senior We cannot change the world by ourselves, but we can Members of this House ought to know better than to set an example to everyone in seeking to do so, and make more noise than is necessary at a time when when it comes to biodiversity, we must start now and someone is making a personal statement, which they act urgently. I very much welcome the steps being taken have the right to do in silence. Just because we are by the Government in the Environment and Agriculture socially distancing and people cannot whisper, they will Bills to enshrine in law greater protections for our own have to learn to make what would have been whispered environment here. Measures such as incentivising farmers comments rather more quietly. to increase the perimeters of fields to create more habitats for animals and wild flowers are really good Virtual participation in proceedings concluded (Order, examples of what can be done to make a difference. 4 June). However, the most powerful influences of all are not to be found in government or in this place; it is among consumers both here and around the world that a difference can be made. Someone once said: “You can’t buck the market,” and she was right. If the markets both here and internationally say, “Enough is enough,” then the world will have to change. That is the point of this proposed Bill. If anyone wants to understand the need for the Bill, just take a look at an island like Borneo. It is home to the critically endangered orangutan, one of our nearest relatives in the primate world. Where once those magnificent creatures roamed wide areas of rainforest, now huge sweeps of what was once their habitat are covered by plantations growing palm oil for international food markets such as ours. The orangutans are confined to less and less space, and their numbers continue to dwindle. We cannot instruct the Government of Borneo to stop allowing the development of palm oil plantations, but we can stop buying that palm oil ourselves and encourage others to do the same. The same is true closer to home. My hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Sir Charles Walker) has just launched an all-party group rightly to try to strengthen protections for chalk streams in this country. They are a really important part of our natural ecosystems and 199 Food Labelling (Environmental 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Food Labelling (Environmental 200 Sustainability) Sustainability) [Chris Grayling] from environmentally sustainable sources. I see the Under- Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural home to many native species. Too often over the years, Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Victoria ill-thought-out farming practices have allowed that Prentis), on the Front Bench—I thank her for turning biodiversity to be threatened and damaged. As consumers, up—and I would have great confidence in her taking we should not have to accept locally produced food this concept forward with commitment and determination. without the confidence that it has been grown or reared The Bill would require Ministers and people such as her with a firm eye on protecting local biodiversity. to work with all the interested parties to find and At the moment, we do not know whether the food we introduce a system that empowers consumers to protect eat comes from smart agriculture that protects and our natural environment. sustains nature, or from unsustainable sources. Of course, When I buy a product with palm oil in it, I want to some producers market their products as coming from know that it comes from one of the many sustainable sustainable sources and they stress this quality as a sources of that product and not another newly cut-down result, but, as is often the case with a product such as area of rainforest. I want to know that it is not taking palm oil, it is a question of scouring the small print on away more habitat from the orangutans that so desperately the back of a package to find the truth. The Bill seeks to need more habitat and not less. When I buy a British empower consumers so they are much better able to say product, I want to know that it has been produced no when the issue is one of environmental damage. without damaging impacts on native species or on I want us to move rapidly to a world where we can see ecosystems such as our chalk streams. very clearly, when we pick up a product in a supermarket The crucial point is that the consumers—the people or in a local shop, whether it comes from a source that is who buy products around the world—can achieve so sustainable and that it has not caused environmental much more than the politicians and the regulators damage in its development. To give one example, it is because their decisions determine whether there is a perfectly possible to buy sustainable beef from South market for products that come from unsustainable sources. America when it comes from the plains of Argentina, When a product does come from an unsustainable yet at the same time to say no to beef from South source, I want every consumer to say, “No, I won’t America if comes from grassland secured by cutting accept that—I do not want it.” It is that power of those down the Amazon rainforest. By saying no and not consumers that can change us all, and we need them to buying those products, we take away a market and we know how. That is what the Bill seeks to achieve. It remove the financial incentive to cut down more trees. sends a very clear signal every time someone buys a However, we need to be able to take such a decision food product so that they know whether it damages the quickly and easily when we go out shopping. environment or whether it actually comes from a source The Bill does not seek to provide all the answers in where the producer has been smart enough to make one piece of legislation; I do not think it could. A plan sure that the natural ecosystems can continue to thrive to introduce a proper kitemark system or similar to alongside the manufacture of that product. highlight whether a product was developed sustainably We have already seen from this dreadful pandemic needs to be developed carefully and with extensive what the price is of misusing nature. As a race and as a consultation with all interested parties. I do not want to nation, we need to start changing, and we need to start hamstring producers in this country or elsewhere from changing right now. I commend the Bill to the House. growing or manufacturing the products that all our Question put and agreed to. societies need to eat, so we will also need their involvement Ordered, in developing the right approach. I do not want to place an unduly high burden of regulation on businesses, That Chris Grayling, Theo Clarke, Barry Gardiner, particularly at what is such a challenging time economically, Andrew Rosindell, Andrew Selous, Chris Bryant, Tracey but this is something that must happen. Crouch and Cherilyn Mackrory present the Bill. The Bill would place on the Government a duty to Chris Grayling accordingly presented the Bill. bring forward within a year a plan to introduce clear Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on labelling on food products, showing whether they come Friday 12 March, and to be printed (Bill 205). 201 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Overseas Operations (Service 202 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Overseas Operations (Service Personnel “The principle referred to in section 1(1) is that a relevant prosecutor making a decision to which that section applies may and Veterans) Bill determine that proceedings should be brought against the person Consideration of Bill, not amended in the Public Bill for the offence, or, as the case may be, that the proceedings Committee against the person for the offence should be continued, only if the prosecutor has reasonable grounds for believing that the fair trial of the person has not been materially prejudiced by the time New Clause 1 elapsed since the alleged conduct took place.” This new clause is intended to replace Clause 2 of the Bill. It JUDICIAL OVERSIGHT OF INVESTIGATIONS replaces the presumption against prosecution with a requirement on a prosecutor deciding whether to bring or continue a prosecution to (1) This section applies to any investigation by a police force consider whether the passage of time has materially prejudiced the into alleged conduct as described in subsection 3 of section 1. prospective defendant’s chance of a fair trial. (2) The police force investigating the conduct must place their New clause 5—Restrictions on time limits: actions preliminary findings before an allocated judge advocate as soon brought against the Crown by service personnel— as possible, but no later than 6 months after the alleged offence was brought to their attention. “Nothing in this Part applies to any action brought against the Crown by a person who is a member or former member of the (3) The judge advocate shall have the power to determine— regular or reserve forces, or of a British overseas territory force (a) that no serious, permanent or lasting psychological or to whom section 369(2) of the Armed Forces Act 2006 (persons physical injury has been caused; and order that the subject to service law) applies.” investigation should cease; This new clause amends Part 2 of the Bill so that it explicitly (b) that the evidence is of a tenuous character because of excludes actions brought against the Crown by serving or former weakness or vagueness or because of inconsistencies service personnel from the limitations on courts’ discretion that the with other evidence, and that it is not in the interests Part imposes in respect of actions relating to overseas operations. of justice to continue an investigation; and order that the investigation should cease; or New clause 6—Duty of care to service personnel— (c) that there is merit in the complaint; and make “(1) The Secretary of State shall establish a duty of care directions as to the timetable and extent of further standard in relation to legal, pastoral and mental health support investigation.”—(Mr Kevan Jones.) provided to service personnel involved in investigations or This new clause would set a timetable for police investigations into litigation arising from overseas operations, as defined in alleged conduct during overseas operations, to ensure they are as subsection (6) of section 1. short as possible and provide an opportunity for a judge to stop an (2) The Secretary of State shall lay a copy of this standard unmeritorious or vexatious investigation early. before Parliament within six months of the date on which this Brought up, and read the First time. Act receives Royal Assent. (3) The Secretary of State shall thereafter in each calendar 2.57 pm year— (a) prepare a duty of care report; and Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): I beg to (b) lay a copy of the report before Parliament. move, That the clause be read a Second time. (4) The duty of care report is a report about the continuous process of review and improvement to meet the duty of care Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): With standard established in subsection (1), in particular in relation to this it will be convenient to discuss the following: incidents arising from overseas operations of— New clause 2—Limitation of time for minor offences— (a) litigation and investigations brought against service personnel for allegations of criminal misconduct and “No proceedings shall be brought against any person in wrongdoing; relation to a relevant offence, where— (b) civil litigation brought by service personnel against the (a) the condition set out in subsection 3 of section 1 is Ministry of Defence for negligence and personal injury; satisfied, (c) judicial reviews and inquiries into allegations of (b) the offence is subject to summary conviction only, or is misconduct by service personnel; one in the commission of which no serious, permanent or lasting psychological or physical injury (d) in such other fields as the Secretary of State may has been caused, and determine. (c) a period of six months has passed from the time the (5) In preparing a duty of care report the Secretary of State offence was committed or discovered.” must have regard to, and publish relevant data in relation to (in respect of overseas operations)— This new clause would dispose of minor allegations of misconduct by imposing a time limit similar to that which exists in relation to (a) the adequacy of legal, welfare and mental health summary only matters in Magistrates’ Courts. support services provided to service personnel who are accused of crimes; New clause 3—Access to justice for service personnel— (b) complaints made by service personnel and, or their “Within 12 months of this Act coming into force, the legal representation when in the process of bringing Secretary of State shall commission an independent evaluation or attempting to bring civil claims against the Ministry comparing— of Defence for negligence and personal injury; (a) access to justice for members and former members of (c) complaints made by service personnel and, or their the regular and reserve forces and of British overseas legal representation when in the process of investigation territory forces to whom section 369(2) of the Armed or litigation for an accusation of misconduct; Forces Act 2006 (persons subject to service law) applies, in relation to legal proceedings in connection (d) meeting national care standards and safeguarding to with operations of the armed forces outside the families of service personnel, where relevant. British Islands, with (6) In section (1) “service personnel” means— (b) access to justice for asylum seekers and prisoners (a) members of the regular forces and the reserve forces; seeking to bring an action against the Crown.” (b) members of British Overseas Territory forces who are New clause 4—Ability to conduct a fair trial— subject to service law; 203 Overseas Operations (Service 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Overseas Operations (Service 204 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill (c) former members of any of Her Majesty‘s forces who Amendment 21, in clause 3, page 2, leave out lines 23 are ordinarily resident in the United Kingdom; and to 29. (d) where relevant, family members of any person meeting This amendment is one of two that together would delete the the definition within (a), (b) or (c). requirement for a prosecutor to give “particular weight” in a (7) In subsection (1) “Duty of Care” means both the legal and prosecution decision after 5 years to the adverse effect on a person moral obligation of the Ministry of Defence to ensure the of the conditions the person was exposed to during deployment. well-being of service personnel. Amendment 25, in clause 3, page 2, line 33, at end (8) None of the provisions contained within this clause shall insert— be used to alter the principle of Combat Immunity.” “(ba) the thoroughness, promptness and efficacy of any This new clause will require the Ministry of Defence to identify a ongoing investigation into the alleged conduct or any new duty of care to create a new standard for policy, services and relevant previous investigation, and the reasons for training in relation to legal, pastoral and mental health support any delays in such investigations;”. provided to service personnel involved in investigations or litigations This amendment would ensure that the adequacy of any arising from overseas operations, and to report annually on their investigative process to date is given particular weight by a relevant application of this standard. prosecutor. New clause 7—Duty of care to service personnel— Amendment 26, in clause 3, page 2, line 33, at end “(1) This section applies where— insert— (a) a person has been acquitted of an offence relating to “(bb) the public interest in maintaining public trust in the conduct on overseas operations; or criminal justice system and upholding the principle (b) a determination has been made that an investigation of accountability of the Armed Forces;”. into an offence relating to such conduct should cease This amendment would ensure that a relevant prosecutor gives under section (Judicial oversight of investigations). particular weight to maintaining public trust in the criminal justice (2) No further investigation into the alleged conduct shall be system and upholding the principle of accountability of the Armed commenced unless— Forces. (a) compelling new evidence has become available; and Amendment 27, in clause 3, page 2, line 33, at end (b) an allocated judge advocate determines that the totality insert— of the evidence against the accused is sufficiently “(bc) the nature of the alleged conduct, in particular strong.” whether it engaged the obligations of the United Kingdom under Articles 2, 3, 4 or 5 of the European This new clause would require a judge advocate of the armed Convention on Human Rights;”. services to determine if new evidence is sufficient to grant reinvestigation of armed forces personnel for alleged offences in This amendment would ensure that particular weight is given by a which they have been acquitted or the original investigation was prosecutor where the alleged conduct engages the UK’s obligations ceased. under Article 2 (right to life), Article 3 (prohibition on torture and Amendment 11, page 1, line 4, leave out clause 1. inhuman or degrading treatment, Article 4 (prohibition of slavery and forced labour) or Article 5 (prohibition of arbitrary detention) Part 1 of the Bill introduces restrictions on prosecution for certain ECHR. offences, including a presumption against prosecution. This Amendment 28, in clause 3, page 2, line 33, at end amendment is one of a series that would remove Part 1 from the Bill. insert— Amendment 18, in clause 1, page 2, line 2, leave out “(bd) whether the person had command responsibility for “5” and insert “10”. the alleged conduct, and to what extent;”. This amendment would ensure that particular weight is given by a This amendment is one of two providing that the presumption relevant prosecutor where the person had command responsibility against prosecution should apply after 10 years (instead of for the alleged conduct. 5 years). Amendment 19, in clause 1, page 2, line 4, leave out Amendment 38, in clause 3, page 2, line 33, after “5” and insert “10”. subsection (2)(b), insert— “(c) the quality and duration of relevant investigations.” This amendment is one of two providing that the presumption against prosecution should apply after 10 years (instead of This amendment would require prosecutors to give weight to the 5 years). quality and duration of relevant investigations when deciding Amendment 64, page 2, line 12, leave out clause 2. whether to bring or continue proceedings against a person relating to alleged conduct during overseas operations. This amendment, which would remove Clause 2 from the Bill, Amendment 22, in clause 3, page 2, leave out lines 34 should be read together with NC4, which replaces the presumption against prosecution with a requirement on a prosecutor to consider to 43. whether the passage of time has materially prejudiced the This amendment is one of two that together would delete the prospective defendant’s chance of a fair trial. requirement for a prosecutor to give “particular weight” in a Amendment 13, page 2, line 18, leave out clause 3. prosecution decision after 5 years to the adverse effect on a person of the conditions the person was exposed to during deployment. Part 1 of the Bill introduces restrictions on prosecution for certain offences, including a presumption against prosecution. This Amendment 14, page 3, line 1, leave out clause 4. amendment is one of a series that would remove Part 1 from the Part 1 of the Bill introduces restrictions on prosecution for certain Bill. offences, including a presumption against prosecution. This Amendment 24, in clause 3, page 2, line 20, leave out amendment is one of a series that would remove Part 1 from the Bill. “(so far as they tend to reduce the person’s culpability or otherwise tend against prosecution)”. Amendment 15, page 3, line 15, leave out clause 5. This amendment would ensure that, in giving particular weight to Part 1 of the Bill introduces restrictions on prosecution for certain the matters in subsection (2), a prosecutor may consider whether offences, including a presumption against prosecution. This any matter tends to reduce or increase culpability, tending against amendment is one of a series that would remove Part 1 from the or in favour of prosecution respectively. Bill. 205 Overseas Operations (Service 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Overseas Operations (Service 206 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill Amendment 31, in clause 5, page 3, line 29, at end This amendment is one of a series that change the relevant date insert— from which the six-year longstop starts to run so as to account for legitimate and explicable delays commonly experienced by persons “(c) where the offence is punishable with a criminal bringing claims under the HRA arising out of overseas operations. penalty by the law of Scotland, except with the consent of the Lord Advocate.” Amendment 41, in clause 11, page 7, line 34, at end Amendment 39, in clause 5, page 3, line 29, at end insert— insert— “(4A) The court may disapply the rule in subsection (1) (b) where it appears to the court that it would be equitable to do so “(3A) Where the consent of the Attorney General is sought having regard to the reasons for the delay, in particular whether under subsection (2) or (3) above, the Attorney General must the delay resulted from— prepare a report containing his reasons for granting or (a) the nature of the injuries; withholding consent, as the case may be, with reference to sections 1 to 3 of this Act, and must lay a copy of this report (b) logistical difficulties in securing the services required to before Parliament.” bring a claim, so long as the claimant was making all reasonable attempts to secure such services, or This amendment requires the Attorney General to lay out their evidence and assessment as to why they granted or refused consent (c) any other reasons outside the control of the person to prosecute. bringing the claim.” Amendment 16, page 3, line 40, leave out clause 6. This amendment introduces a discretion for UK courts to allow a Human Rights Act claim arising out of overseas operations to Part 1 of the Bill introduces restrictions on prosecution for certain proceed in prescribed circumstances so as to account for legitimate offences, including a presumption against prosecution. This and explicable delays commonly experienced by persons bringing amendment is one of a series that would remove Part 1 from the such claims. Bill. Amendment 29, in clause 11, page 7, line 36, leave out Amendment 20, in clause 6, page 4, line 13, at end “first ought to have known”. insert— Amendment 47, in clause 11, page 7, line 40, at end “(2A) An offence is not a “relevant offence” if it amounts to— insert— (a) torture, within the meaning of section 134 Criminal “(c) of the manifestation of the harm resulting from that Justice Act 1988; or act which is the subject of the claim; and (b) genocide, a crime against humanity or a war crime as (d) that they were eligible to bring a claim under the defined in section 50 of the International Criminal Human Rights Act 1998 against the Ministry of Court Act 2001.” Defence or Secretary of State for Defence in the courts of the United Kingdom.” This amendment provides that the presumption against prosecution does not apply to war crimes, crimes against humanity, genocide or This amendment is one of a series that change the relevant date torture. from which the six-year longstop starts to run so as to account for Amendment 32, in clause 6, page 4, line 13, at end legitimate and explicable delays commonly experienced by persons bringing claims under the HRA arising out of overseas operations. insert— Amendment 40, page 8, line 14, leave out clause 12. “(3A) A service offence is not a “relevant offence” if it is an Clause 12 would require the Secretary of State to consider making offence whose prosecution is required under the United a derogation under Article 15(1) ECHR in respect of any Kingdom’s international treaty obligations.” significant overseas operations. This amendment would remove this This amendment would exclude the prosecution of serious requirement. international crimes (such as torture, genocide, crimes against Amendment 37, in clause 12, page 8, line 20, at end, humanity, and certain war crimes) from the limitations otherwise insert— imposed by the Bill. Amendment 17, page 4, line 27, leave out clause 7. “(1A) No order may be made by the Secretary of State under section 14 following consideration under this section unless a Part 1 of the Bill introduces restrictions on prosecution for certain draft of the order has been laid before, and approved by, each offences, including a presumption against prosecution. This amendment House of Parliament.” is one of a series that would remove Part 1 from the Bill. This amendment would require significant derogations regarding Amendment 33, page 6, line 4, leave out clause 8. overseas operations proposed by the Government from the Amendment 34, page 6, line 15, leave out clause 9. European Convention on Human Rights to be approved by Amendment 35, page 6, line 26, leave out clause 10. Parliament before being made. Amendment 23, page 6, line 38, leave out clause 11. Amendment 66, page 11, line 1, leave out schedule 1. This amendment is consequential on Amendment 16. This clause would introduce a hard deadline for human rights claims and also includes detailed provision around the impact of Amendment 1, in schedule 1, page 12, line 6, at end proceedings on the mental health of Armed Forces witnesses. This insert— amendment deletes this clause from the bill. “(13A) An offence under section 134 of the Criminal Justice Amendment 60, in clause 11, page 7, line 23, at end Act 1988 (torture).” insert— This amendment is one of a series designed to ensure that the Bill’s “(c) the importance of the proceedings in securing the “triple lock” provisions to block prosecutions would not apply to rights of the claimant.” torture and related offences under UK law. This suite of amendments would ensure that the existing offences of torture – contained in the This amendment adds a further consideration to which UK courts 1988 Criminal Justice Act and in other parts of UK law incorporating must have particular regard when determining whether to disapply longstanding laws of war – would not be included within the Bill’s the standard HRA limitation period of one year so as to ensure “triple lock” against prosecutions of UK soldiers. that the claimant’s interest in having their claim proceed is not Amendment 2, in schedule 1, page 12, line 40, leave subordinated. out “or” and insert— Amendment 46, in clause 11, page 7, line 30, leave out from “before” to the end of line 34 and insert “(b) a crime against humanity within article 7.1(f), “the end of the period of 6 years beginning with the date of (c) a crime against humanity within article 7.1(i) knowledge.” (d) a crime against humanity within article 7.1(k), or”. 207 Overseas Operations (Service 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Overseas Operations (Service 208 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill This amendment is one of a series designed to ensure that the Bill’s (iv) article 8.2(c)(ii) (which relates to armed conflicts “triple lock” provisions to block prosecutions would not apply to not of an international character).” torture and related offences under UK law. This suite of amendments This amendment is one of a series designed to ensure that the Bill’s would ensure that the existing offences of torture – contained in the “triple lock” provisions to block prosecutions would not apply to 1988 Criminal Justice Act and in other parts of UK law incorporating torture and related offences under UK law. This suite of amendments longstanding laws of war – would not be included within the Bill’s would ensure that the existing offences of torture – contained in the “triple lock” against prosecutions of UK soldiers. 1988 Criminal Justice Act and in other parts of UK law incorporating Amendment 3, in schedule 1, page 12, line 42, leave longstanding laws of war – would not be included within the Bill’s out “or” and insert— “triple lock” against prosecutions of UK soldiers. “(ii) article 8.2(a)(ii) (which relates to international Amendment 8, in schedule 1, page 14, line 8, leave conflict), out “or” and insert— (iii) article 8.2(b)(xxi) (which relates to international “(b) a crime against humanity within article 7.1(f), conflict), or”. (c) a crime against humanity within article 7.1(i), This amendment is one of a series designed to ensure that the Bill’s “triple lock” provisions to block prosecutions would not apply to (d) a crime against humanity within article 7.1(k), or”. torture and related offences under UK law. This suite of This amendment is one of a series designed to ensure that the Bill’s amendments would ensure that the existing offences of torture – “triple lock” provisions to block prosecutions would not apply to contained in the 1988 Criminal Justice Act and in other parts of torture and related offences under UK law. This suite of UK law incorporating longstanding laws of war – would not be amendments would ensure that the existing offences of torture – included within the Bill’s “triple lock” against prosecutions of UK contained in the 1988 Criminal Justice Act and in other parts of soldiers. UK law incorporating longstanding laws of war – would not be Amendment 4, in schedule 1, page 13, line 2, at end included within the Bill’s “triple lock” against prosecutions of UK insert “, or soldiers. (iv) article 8.2(c)(i) (which relates to armed conflicts Amendment 9, in schedule 1, page 14, line 10, leave not of an international character) insofar as it out “or” and insert— relates to the offences of cruel treatment and “(iii) article 8.2(a)(ii) ((which relates to international torture, conflict), (v) article 8.2(c)(ii) (which relates to armed conflicts not of an international character).” (iv) article 8.2(b)(xxi) (which relates to international conflict), or”. This amendment is one of a series designed to ensure that the Bill’s “triple lock” provisions to block prosecutions would not apply to This amendment is one of a series designed to ensure that the Bill’s torture and related offences under UK law. This suite of “triple lock” provisions to block prosecutions would not apply to amendments would ensure that the existing offences of torture – torture and related offences under UK law. This suite of contained in the 1988 Criminal Justice Act and in other parts of amendments would ensure that the existing offences of torture – UK law incorporating longstanding laws of war – would not be contained in the 1988 Criminal Justice Act and in other parts of included within the Bill’s “triple lock” against prosecutions of UK UK law incorporating longstanding laws of war – would not be soldiers. included within the Bill’s “triple lock” against prosecutions of UK soldiers. Amendment 5, in schedule 1, page 13, line 14, leave out “or” and insert— Amendment 10, in schedule 1, page 14, line 12, at end insert— “(b) a crime against humanity within article 7.1(f), (c) a crime against humanity within article 7.1(i), “(iii) article 8.2(c)(i) (which relates to armed conflicts not of an international character) insofar as it (d) a crime against humanity within article 7.1(k), or”. relates to the offences of cruel treatment and This amendment is one of a series designed to ensure that the Bill’s torture, or “triple lock” provisions to block prosecutions would not apply to (iv) article 8.2(c)(ii) (which relates to armed conflicts torture and related offences under UK law. This suite of not of an international character).” amendments would ensure that the existing offences of torture – contained in the 1988 Criminal Justice Act and in other parts of This amendment is one of a series designed to ensure that the Bill’s UK law incorporating longstanding laws of war – would not be “triple lock” provisions to block prosecutions would not apply to included within the Bill’s “triple lock” against prosecutions of UK torture and related offences under UK law. This suite of soldiers. amendments would ensure that the existing offences of torture – contained in the 1988 Criminal Justice Act and in other parts of Amendment 6, in schedule 1, page 13, line 16, leave UK law incorporating longstanding laws of war – would not be out “or” and insert— included within the Bill’s “triple lock” against prosecutions of UK “(ii) article 8.2(a)(ii) ((which relates to international soldiers. conflict), Amendment 67, page 15, line 33, leave out schedule 2. (iii) article 8.2(b)(xxi) (which relates to international conflict), or”. This amendment is consequential on Amendment 33. This amendment is one of a series designed to ensure that the Bill’s Amendment 48, in schedule 2, page 16, line 5, leave “triple lock” provisions to block prosecutions would not apply to out torture and related offences under UK law. This suite of “the section 11 relevant date” amendments would ensure that the existing offences of torture – and insert “the date of knowledge”. contained in the 1988 Criminal Justice Act and in other parts of UK law incorporating longstanding laws of war – would not be This amendment is one of a series that changes the relevant date included within the Bill’s “triple lock” against prosecutions of UK from which the six-year longstop starts to run in England and soldiers. Wales so as to account for legitimate and explicable delays Amendment 7, in schedule 1, page 13, line 18, at end commonly experienced by persons bringing civil claims for personal insert— injury arising out of overseas operations. “(iii) article 8.2(c)(i) (which relates to armed conflicts Amendment 30, in schedule 2, page 16, line 5, at end not of an international character) insofar as it insert relates to the offences of cruel treatment and “save for exceptional cases where the overriding interest of justice torture, should be served.” 209 Overseas Operations (Service 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Overseas Operations (Service 210 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill Amendment 42, in schedule 2, page 16, line 5, at end “‘the date of knowledge’ means the date on which the person insert— bringing the proceedings first knew, or first ought to have known— “(1ZAi) The court may disapply the rule in subsection (1ZA) where it appears to the court that it would be equitable to do so (a) of the act complained of; having regard to the reasons for the delay, in particular whether (b) that it was an act of the Ministry of Defence or the the delay resulted from— Secretary of State for Defence; (a) the nature of the injuries; (c) of the manifestation of the injury resulting from that (b) logistical difficulties in securing the services required to act which is the subject of the claim, and bring a claim, so long as the claimant was making all (d) that they were eligible to bring a claim against the reasonable attempts to secure such services, or Ministry of Defence or Secretary of State for (c) any other reasons outside the control of the person Defence in the courts of the United Kingdom.” bringing the claim.” This amendment is one of a series that changes the relevant date This amendment introduces a discretion for the courts of England from which the six-year longstop starts to run in England and and Wales to allow a civil claim for personal injury arising out of Wales so as to account for legitimate and explicable delays overseas operations to proceed in prescribed circumstances so as to commonly experienced by persons bringing civil claims for personal account for legitimate and explicable delays commonly injury and wrongful death arising out of overseas operations. experienced by persons bringing such claims. Amendment 68, page 20, line 1, leave out schedule 3. Amendment 49, in schedule 2, page 16, line 30, leave This amendment is consequential on Amendment 34. out Amendment 62, in schedule 3, page 20, line 32, at end “the section 11 relevant date (ignoring, for this purpose, the insert— reference to section 11 (5) in paragraph (a) of the definition of “(c) the importance of the proceedings in securing the that term)” rights of the claimant.” and insert “the date of knowledge.” This amendment adds a further consideration to which the courts of This amendment is one of a series that changes the relevant date Scotland must have particular regard when determining whether to from which the six-year longstop starts to run in England and disapply the standard limitation period of three years so as to Wales so as to account for legitimate and explicable delays ensure that the claimant’s interest in having their civil claim commonly experienced by persons bringing civil claims for proceed is not subordinated. wrongful death arising out of overseas operations. Amendment 52, in schedule 3, page 20, line 41, leave Amendment 50, in schedule 2, page 16, line 35, leave out out “the section 17 relevant date” “the section 12 relevant date” and insert and insert “the date of knowledge”. “the date of knowledge (see subsection (13))”. This amendment is one of a series that changes the relevant date This amendment is one of a series that changes the relevant date from which the six-year longstop starts to run in England and from which the six-year longstop starts to run in Scotland so as to Wales so as to account for legitimate and explicable delays account for legitimate and explicable delays commonly commonly experienced by persons bringing civil claims for experienced by persons bringing civil claims for personal injury wrongful death arising out of overseas operations. arising out of overseas operations. Amendment 43, schedule 2, page 16, line 36, at end Amendment 53, in schedule 3, page 21, line 4, leave insert— out “the section 18 relevant date” “(2Bi) The court may disapply the rules in subsections (2A) and (2B) where it appears to the court that it would be equitable and insert to do so having regard to the reasons for the delay, in particular “the date of knowledge (see subsection (13))”. whether the delay resulted from— This amendment is one of a series that changes the relevant date (a) the nature of the injuries; from which the six-year longstop starts to run in Scotland so as to (b) logistical difficulties in securing the services required to account for legitimate and explicable delays commonly bring a claim, so long as the claimant was making all experienced by persons bringing civil claims for wrongful death reasonable attempts to secure such services, or arising out of overseas operations. (c) any other reasons outside the control of the person Amendment 54, in schedule 3, page 21, line 9, leave bringing the claim.” out “the section 17 relevant date” This amendment introduces a discretion for the courts of England and Wales to allow a civil claim for wrongful death arising out of and insert overseas operations to proceed in prescribed circumstances so as to “the date of knowledge (see subsection (13))”. account for legitimate and explicable delays commonly This amendment is one of a series that changes the relevant date experienced by persons bringing such claims. from which the six-year longstop starts to run in Scotland so as to Amendment 61, in schedule 2, page 17, line 5, at end account for legitimate and explicable delays commonly insert— experienced by persons bringing civil claims for personal injury arising out of overseas operations. “(c) the court must also have particular regard to the importance of the proceedings in securing the rights Amendment 44, in schedule 3, page 21, line 9, at end of the claimant.” insert— This amendment adds a further consideration to which the courts of “(7A) The court may disapply the rules in subsections (5) to England and Wales must have particular regard when determining (7) where it appears to the court that it would be equitable to do whether to disapply the standard limitation period of three years so so having regard to the reasons for the delay, in particular as to ensure that the claimant’s interest in having their civil claim whether the delay resulted from— proceed is not illegitimately subordinated. (a) the nature of the injuries; Amendment 51, in schedule 2, page 17, leave out (b) logistical difficulties in securing the services required to from beginning of line 35 to end of line 5 on page 18, bring a claim, so long as the claimant was making all and insert— reasonable attempts to secure such services, or 211 Overseas Operations (Service 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Overseas Operations (Service 212 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill (c) any other reasons outside the control of the person This amendment is one of a series that changes the relevant date bringing the claim.” from which the six-year longstop starts to run in Northern Ireland This amendment introduces a discretion for the courts of Scotland so as to account for legitimate and explicable delays commonly to allow a civil claim for personal injury or wrongful death arising experienced by persons bringing civil claims for wrongful death out of overseas operations to proceed in prescribed circumstances arising out of overseas operations. so as to account for legitimate and explicable delays commonly Amendment 63, in schedule 4, page 25, line 5, at end experienced by persons bringing such claims. insert— Amendment 55, in schedule 3, page 22, leave out lines “(c) the court must also have particular regard to the 12 to 17 and insert— importance of the proceedings in securing the rights “‘the date of knowledge’ means the date on which the person of the claimant.” bringing the proceedings first knew, or first ought to have This amendment adds a further consideration to which the courts of known— Northern Ireland must have particular regard when determining (a) of the act complained of; whether to disapply the standard limitation period of three years so (b) that it was an act of the Ministry of Defence or the as to ensure that the claimant’s interest in having their civil claim Secretary of State for Defence; proceed is not subordinated. (c) of the manifestation of the injury resulting from that Amendment 59, in schedule 4, page 25, leave out act which is the subject of the claim, and lines 25 to 43 and insert— (d) that they were eligible to bring a claim against the “‘the date of knowledge’ means the date on which the person Ministry of Defence or Secretary of State for bringing the proceedings first knew, or first ought to have Defence in the courts of the United Kingdom.” known— This amendment is one of a series that changes the relevant date (a) of the act complained of; from which the six-year longstop starts to run in Scotland so as to (b) that it was an act of the Ministry of Defence or the account for legitimate and explicable delays commonly Secretary of State for Defence; experienced by persons bringing civil claims for personal injury and wrongful death arising out of overseas operations. (c) of the manifestation of the injury resulting from that act which is the subject of the claim, and Amendment 69, page 23, line 38, leave out schedule 4. (d) that they were eligible to bring a claim against the This amendment is consequential on Amendment 35. Ministry of Defence or Secretary of State for Defence Amendment 56, in schedule 4, page 24, line 5, leave in the courts of the United Kingdom.” out This amendment is one of a series that changes the relevant date “the Article 7 relevant date” from which the six-year longstop starts to run in Northern Ireland and insert “the date of knowledge”. so as to account for legitimate and explicable delays commonly experienced by persons bringing civil claims for personal injury and This amendment is one of a series that changes the relevant date wrongful death arising out of overseas operations. from which the six-year longstop starts to run in Northern Ireland so as to account for legitimate and explicable delays commonly Mr Jones: For the sake of time, I will not speak to experienced by persons bringing civil claims for personal injury arising out of overseas operations. every single amendment. Amendment 45, in schedule 4, page 24, line 5, at end Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab): Go on! insert— “(1Ai) The court may disapply the rule in paragraph (1A) Mr Jones: My hon. Friend says, “Please do,” but I am where it appears to the court that it would be equitable to do so sure that other Members want to contribute to this having regard to the reasons for the delay, in particular whether the delay resulted from— debate. (a) the nature of the injuries; Since speaking on Second Reading and in Committee, (b) logistical difficulties in securing the services required to it has been my aim, and that of the Labour Front-Bench bring a claim, so long as the claimant was making all team, to try to improve the Bill. In my nearly 19 years in reasonable attempts to secure such services, or this House, I have been someone who is proud of our (c) any other reasons outside the control of the person armed forces, considers myself a friend to them and bringing the claim.” wants to help them in any way I can. I stand up for This amendment introduces a discretion for the courts of Northern them, and I speak passionately, I think, in defending Ireland to allow a civil claim for personal injury or wrongful death not just them but the case for defence. arising out of overseas operations to proceed in prescribed It has therefore been disappointing that the Government circumstances so as to account for legitimate and explicable delays commonly experienced by persons bringing such claims. have not really engaged to amend the Bill. Yesterday, my right hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth and Amendment 57, in schedule 4, page 24, line 29, leave Dearne (John Healey) said to the Defence Secretary out that he wished to work with the Government to try to “the Article 7 relevant date (ignoring, for this purpose, the reference improve the Bill today, and he got a single-word reply: to Article 7(5) in paragraph (a) of the definition of that term)” “No.” We then had the reply from the Minister for and insert “the date of knowledge”. Defence People and Veterans in response to a question This amendment is one of a series that changes the relevant date on the Bill when he said that he would be from which the six-year longstop starts to run in Northern Ireland “happy to work with anybody to improve this Bill, but we must so as to account for legitimate and explicable delays commonly operate in the real world.”—[Official Report, 2 November 2020; experienced by persons bringing civil claims for personal injury out Vol. 683, c. 13.] of overseas operations. The only problem with that is that it is the real world Amendment 58, in schedule 4, page 24, line 34, leave according to the Minister, and that world obviously has out a different colour sky from the one that we all live in. “the Article 9 relevant date” The idea that, somehow, as long as he is saying it, it has and insert “the date of knowledge”. to be true, even when his evidence is counter to that put 213 Overseas Operations (Service 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Overseas Operations (Service 214 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill forward by various witnesses in Committee, is telling. British Legion? They have put in writing to all Members What was sad in Committee was that all the Minister of Parliament the fact that they believe that part 2 of did was read out his civil service brief to us in response this Bill should be improved and that the time limit to the various amendments. He was reluctant to accept really gravely concerns them. any interventions, even from rottweilers such as my hon. Friends the Members for Blaydon (Liz Twist) and Mr Jones: I am, and I will come onto part 2 in a for South Shields (Mrs Lewell-Buck). When it comes to minute. The hon. Gentleman has hit on an issue relating the Government Members on the Committee, I must to the Government’s approach to this Bill. The Minister congratulate the Whips Office on selecting so well, is saying that it is standing up for members of the because those Members must have taken a collective armed forces. It is doing nothing of the sort. In part 2, it vow of silence, which would have been admired by any is actually taking away rights. silent ecclesiastical order. Wehad no contribution whatever from them, so it has been very difficult trying to engage The Minister for Defence People and Veterans (Johnny with the Government on this Bill. The line is, clearly, Mercer): Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? that this is the answer, irrespective of what has been Mr Jones: I will let the Minister intervene, even raised in Committee. We had some very good witnesses though he is very reluctant to give way to me. I asked before us in Committee, but the Government are just him if I could intervene on numerous occasions in not interested in changing the Bill, because the world Committee, but he would not tear himself away from and this Bill are perfect, according to the Minister and the civil service briefing in front of him. the Government. Johnny Mercer: I just wish to intervene briefly. It is a Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ litany of accusations and they are complete rubbish. Co-op): I concur with much of what my right hon. Where have I ever said that I wanted to stop investigations Friend is saying. He has always been a champion of the in this Bill? That is what I would like the right hon. armed forces, both in his time in Government and, Gentleman to indicate to me. indeed, during the course of this Bill. Does he share my surprise that even the Government witnesses were saying Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order. things that disagreed with the Government’s account of That is a perfectly reasonable question, but, although it this Bill? Professor Richard Ekins said that the Bill is not exactly unparliamentary language, perhaps the certainly does not stop investigations. He said: Minister, speaking as he does with dignity from the “In fact, if one were to make a criticism of the Bill, one might Front Bench, might use a different phrase than “complete say that it places no obstacle on continuing investigations”––[Official rubbish”—just something a little bit different. Report, Overseas Operations (Service Personnel and Veterans) Public Bill Committee, 6 October 2020; c. 35, Q63.] Mr Jones: It is better than he did in Committee when Does he not find it surprising that even Government he called me a hypocrite, Madam Deputy Speaker, but witnesses did not agree with the Government? if he listens to what I am saying, he will know that I am not saying that. I know that his attention span is not Mr Jones: Indeed. Time and again, supposed very good, and he does not tend to listen. What he tends Government witnesses went against the Government. to do is just stick to what he has in front of him and his My hon. Friend raises a good point with the example view of the world, rather than hearing what people are that he has just provided. saying. The issue is—[Interruption.] Well, he can say The other thing that came out, which relates to my “brilliant” and chunter as much as he likes, but this is new clause, was about investigations. Investigations, or the issue—the delays that are taking place because of the problems that lead to these issues around investigations, the investigations. were the thread that ran throughout the evidence. In I have referred to Judge Blackett, and the Minister spite of that, what we had at the weekend—this was a was there when the evidence was taken. Judge Blackett really dangerous move on the part of the Ministry of is a just-retired senior judge of the service justice system, Defence—was tweets promoting this Bill from the MOD and he said: and saying that it would stop investigations. It will do “The Bill is effectively looking at the wrong end of the telescope. nothing of the sort. As a former Defence Minister It is looking at the prosecution end, and you have got to remember myself, using the MOD’s website and tweets to politicise that you do not prosecute until you investigate—and you have got things would not have been allowed in my day. What to investigate. This will not stop people being investigated and it was put out is just not going to happen. Let us look at will not stop people being re-investigated and investigated again. the evidence that we heard in Committee from a number Lots of investigations do not go anywhere, but the people who are of witnesses. The first one I will mention, again a investigated do not see that.”—[Official Report, Overseas Operations (Service Personnel and Veterans) Public Bill Committee, 8 October Government witness, is Hilary Meredith, solicitor. She 2020; c. 120.] was very good and concentrated on the issue around investigations. She said: That came up when we took evidence from Major Campbell. I will put it on record again that his case was “It is the procedure and investigation in the UK that need to be reviewed and overhauled, and not necessarily a time limit placed a disgrace, because it took 17 years, but this Bill will do on…prosecutions.”––[Official Report, Overseas Operations (Service nothing to speed up such cases or to ensure that Personnel and Veterans) Public Bill Committee, 6 October 2020; reinvestigations do not occur. That is the key problem. c. 16, Q24.] The problem is not the prosecutions, because their number is very small. Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): The right hon. Gentleman has a long track record of supporting the Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Ind): I have put in armed services here. Is he concerned by the expression three written questions about this Bill, and yesterday I of doubt that has been put by members of the Royal had answers to them. Two of the answers were helpful, 215 Overseas Operations (Service 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Overseas Operations (Service 216 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill [Dr Julian Lewis] given away by the Minister in the evidence session: this Bill has nothing to do with making sure of these matters. but one, on the point that the right hon. Gentleman is There is no reason why what I am suggesting and other making, was not. I was trying to establish how many issues around investigations could not be put in the Bill investigations had not resulted in prosecutions, and I now and improve it, yet for reasons of tidiness the could not seem to get an answer, yet that is central to MOD wants to do it next year. the whole problem. The core of the problem is not the I have some sympathy with the MOD on that, because small number who get prosecuted but the large number perhaps the best way to do this is in those five-yearly who get investigated. reviews of the Armed Forces Acts—and I think I have been on the Committee for every single one for the past Mr Jones: The right hon. Gentleman is correct. That nearly 20 years as either a Minister or Back Bencher. came out in evidence that we took throughout the But the reason this Bill is before us has nothing to do Committee. The issue is not the number of prosecutions with that; the Minister let the cat out of the bag in but the number of investigations and how we can speed Committee when he said he had to get this through up the length of time they take. now, because one of his general election pledges was to The problem is that the Ministry seems to have a deaf do it within 100 days. I am sorry, but that is not a good ear when it comes to recognising that we need to address way of bringing in legislation—just trying to press it the issue around investigations, which is what new clause forward irrespective of whether or not it is flawed. 1 would do. It would ensure that we had judicial oversight of the investigations. We can see what we have at the Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): I moment from the example of Major Campbell’s case, have a lot of sympathy with what the right hon. Gentleman which went on and on. New clause 1 states that after a is saying, but may I drag him away from his politics for certain period of time, the evidence should be put a second? Would it not be very simple to incorporate before a judge to see whether there was a case to answer. the recommendation in a 1960s magistrates Act of a Clearly, if the evidence did not meet the test and the judge advocate general, as that would deal with exactly case was going nowhere, it would get thrown out there what he is talking about? and then. Alternatively, it could be decided that the case needed further investigation, but at least that would Mr Jones: It would. That and judicial oversight would ensure that, after six months, there was some judicial improve the Bill tremendously. It would then actually oversight of the investigation. That would be a way of do what it is supposed to do, which is stop reinvestigation ensuring that these investigations did not go on for a and stop the worry that these individuals have, but it long time. does not do that; that is the big hole in the Bill. Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab): My right It is not as though the Minister has not had a chance hon. Friend has always been a strong supporter of the to look at this. I have raised it with him—I tabled armed forces. Does he agree that, while drafting the amendments in Committee, which he pushed aside, and Bill, the Government, who claim to be champions of we are going to go ahead with what we have now, which our armed forces, continued to ignore the impartial will be a flawed Bill. Once it has passed, it will lead to a advice of the Royal British Legion, which has stated situation whereby a lot of people think that as a result again and again that it breaches the armed forces they have protections when, frankly, it will do nothing covenant? of the sort, because it will not stop investigations and reinvestigations. One of the worst things we can do in Mr Jones: But it really does not matter, because if my politics is promise people things and give them the hon. Friend wants to see the attitude of the Minister to impression that we have done something when actually the Royal British Legion, he has only to read the we have not, because once the penny drops and they see evidence that came before the Committee. it is not actually the case, they rightly feel very bitter. New clause 2 would provide a way of ensuring that As the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden minor offences were dealt with speedily.As Judge Blackett (Mr Davis) has just said, there is time to put this in the said, this could be done in a magistrates court, where, Bill. If Ministers are not going to do it in this place, they after a period of time had passed, the cases could be should do it in the other place, because it will improve looked at judicially and ticked off and dismissed on the the situation. basis that the there was no evidence to go forward. That There is another dishonesty with this process. From, would deal with a lot of the smaller issues. People ask again, using the MOD website, which I do not think is why that is important, but if we look at the Iraq appropriate for political reasons, we see there is a promise Historic Allegations Team—IHAT—and Northmoor, about Northern Ireland. The Minister is on record as some of those cases involved assault and other things saying that similar legislation will be brought in to cover that in normal circumstances could be dealt with very historical cases in Northern Ireland. Well, I am sorry, quickly in a magistrates court. At least if we had a judge but it will not do so if it is like this Bill; if it is like this looking at them, he or she could make a decision as to Bill then, frankly,it will do nothing at all on investigations. whether or not those cases had any merit. It is amazing If it is a mirror image of this Bill, all those people who that the Government fail to recognise that the problem think that somehow they are going to get protection is not prosecutions but actually the investigatory process. will find that they do not, and that is just not fair. Then, halfway through the Bill Committee, the MOD announced it was coming forward with a review of Ian Paisley: I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will investigations, to feed into next year’s Armed Forces agree that the officers who served under Operation Act, when the obvious place to have put that would Banner have been completely jettisoned and abandoned. have been in this Bill. The reason for doing that was That is the bottom line, and that is the crying shame of 217 Overseas Operations (Service 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Overseas Operations (Service 218 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill this—and I do not trust anyone in the Northern Ireland May I put this on record, as I did in Committee? Office to bring forward a Bill that will help those Bringing forward a section 33 case is by no means easy. ex-servicemen in the years to come. It pertains to a very small number of individuals who could not bring their case within the time limit because Mr Jones: The hon. Gentleman makes a clear point: their circumstances were unique; and they have to go do I feel it right that, frankly, people in their 70s or 80s before a court and argue out the reasons. I have done it and even younger are worried about this happening? myself when I worked for a trade union on injury or No, I think that is appalling, frankly, because there is an disease cases that were out of time—although you evidence test: is it in the public interest for those individuals would not take on such a case in the first instance if you to be now dragged before the courts? No, it is not. Here thought you would not get anywhere. However, there we have another promise that will not be delivered. I are those important cases that you can take, and which must say he is right in terms of the Northern Ireland do make a difference. Office. I have looked at the matter in detail—I have met The case that was mentioned time and again in all parties in Northern Ireland, including Sinn Féin, Committee was the Snatch Land Rover decision in along with the right hon. Member for New Forest East 2016. The families took forward the case under the (Dr Lewis)—and I think that finding a mechanism is Human Rights Act, which I will come on to in a minute, going to be virtually impossible. on the basis that their loved ones had been killed and injured in Iraq because of negligence on behalf of 3.15 pm the MOD.

Ian Paisley: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order. comments. The fact is this will end up in Northern Just for clarification, in the silent exchange that the Ireland Operation Banner officers being a trade-off right hon. Gentleman and I have just had, I was trying between what the NIO finds politically helpful to buy to indicate to him that it would be helpful to the House off bartering with the Provisional IRA and Sinn Féin. if he concluded his remarks quite soon. I know it seems that he has not been speaking for very long, but it has Mr Jones: I defer to the hon. Gentleman’s knowledge been 22 minutes. I appreciate that he has taken a lot of of Northern Ireland politics, but I will say that this will interventions and this is important. I am requiring not not be solved by the promise that has been made. That that he finishes now but that he takes into consideration again is not the issue. that there are many points of view on this Bill and that I turn to new clause 3. It relates to the point that was there are many people who wish to speak and, although raised on part 2 and is covered by an amendment tabled we have a long time, we do not have long enough for by Members on the Labour Front Bench. The issue is everyone to take more than 20 minutes. He has some the stripping away of rights from veterans. I find it serious points to make, and I trust he will make them as absolutely astonishing that, in this week of remembrance, quickly as possible. we have a Government who have introduced a Bill that will actually take rights away from veterans. The longstop Mr Jones: On one occasion, I spoke in Committee for of six years will mean that veterans—and families—will an hour and 10 minutes. not have access to section 33 of the Limitation Act, which allows people to bring cases out of time. Miss Sarah Dines (Derbyshire Dales) (Con): Could In Committee there was a lot of discussion about the right hon. Gentleman take a moment to reflect on how many people would be affected. The Royal British what he said in his opening remarks, when he said there Legion was very clear in its opposition to part 2 because, was near silence from Conservative Members in Committee? as Charles Byrne said in response to the Minister: I was there, and I did not hear silence, but his contributions “I think it is protecting the MOD, rather than the service probably put us to sleep. With respect, could he think personnel”––[Official Report, Overseas Operations (Service Personnel about it again for one moment? and Veterans) Public Bill Committee, 8 October 2020; c. 86, On our side, we had valuable contributions from Q163.] Members of Parliament who have served this great He said that the Royal British Legion thought it did country of ours, like my hon. Friends the Members for breach the armed forces covenant. I agree, because the Wrexham (Sarah Atherton) and for Wolverhampton covenant states: South West (Stuart Anderson). They know what they “Those who serve in the Armed Forces, whether Regular or are talking about. Would the right hon. Gentleman care Reserve, those who have served in the past, and their families, to think again about saying they were silent? should face no disadvantage compared to other citizens in the … provision of public services” Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. Let us get this straight. and so on. I agree with that, but this strips away their Interventions will also be brief this afternoon. We want rights under section 33, which means that if somebody interventions because there is a serious debate to be brings forward a case after the six-year longstop, they had. As I look around the Chamber, I see experienced cannot have recourse to section 33 of the Limitation parliamentarians and others who understand that this Act, because the Bill will take those rights away. Those is a very important Bill, and much of it is very sensitive, rights are open to every single Member in the House so let us try to behave with sensitivity and consideration today, and to prisoners and asylum seekers—anybody for others. who wants to bring a case. The Minister said that 94% of cases were brought Mr Jones: I made a mistake this morning, because I within the time limits anyway. That is irrelevant to me, was going to count the number of interventions.There were because 6% clearly are not, and it is those 6% that will no speeches from Conservative Members in Committee, then possibly use the Limitation Act. although I think there were six interventions. 219 Overseas Operations (Service 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Overseas Operations (Service 220 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I do not care how That cannot be right. The Minister mentioned the 6%; I many interventions there were in Committee. This debate am sorry, but if even one veteran loses their rights is not about Committee; it is about the important under this Bill, I am not prepared to support that. matters before us, and that is what we will stick to. My next point is about the Human Rights Act. I support the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Mr Jones: Sorry, Madam Deputy Speaker, but I was Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis) and the right being polite in replying to the hon. Member for Derbyshire hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis), Dales (Miss Dines). because it is about how this looks in terms of our The families took the case against the MOD on the international reputation. There is derogation in the Bill; basis that they did not know about the Snatch Land I accept that there cannot be derogation for torture, but Rovers until the Chilcot inquiry reported. That was way it can and will be used to stop claims by MOD personnel past any time limit. against the MOD itself. The Snatch Land Rover case was brought under the Human Rights Act. Some people Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Con): Surely have the idea that the Human Rights Act is there to the right hon. Gentleman realises that the proposed protect nasty foreigners and people we do not like; no, it six-year time limit applies from the point of knowledge is not. It is there to protect us all, including armed or the point of diagnosis, so it is not clear what point he forces personnel. I am sure that that derogation will be is trying to get across. used again by the MOD to deny the rights of individuals to take cases. Mr Jones: He who waits it all comes to. I was going to People should look at the Smith judgment on that answer that point in a minute. case. What were the Government arguing? They were The MOD argued two things in that case. First, it arguing that combat immunity, which is covered and argued that the case was out of time, and the families was reinforced by the Supreme Court judgment, applied won the limitation hearing to take the case forward. The in that case because it happened in Iraq. No, that was hon. Member for Filton and Bradley Stoke (Jack Lopresti) not the case; the case was actually about the design and has just said it would be within the six-year limit. No, it the decision to procure those Land Rovers and put would not. Let us suppose they had taken the case not them into theatre. The derogation will clearly be used in in 2016 but six years later. They would not be able to such a way. take a limitation hearing at all. The Minister does not quite understand that problem. I wish to make one final point, about our standing in the world. I am a supporter of the service justice The case I raised in Committee was of an aircraft system—it works well and we should be proud of it—but engineer who developed a very serious nerve condition the problem with the Bill is this: do I want to see British from paint. The only reason he was able to take forward servicemen and women tried in the International Criminal his case was because the technology had changed and Court? No, I do not. I want them to be tried by their research had shown that the paint actually damages peers in a court in this country. As the Judge Advocate people’s nervous system. General, Judge Blackett, said in Committee, under this The Minister said in Committee that, somehow, he is Bill there is a danger that if we have a presumption on record in The Sun as guaranteeing that no one will against prosecution and the issue around torture, we lose out, but he cannot because that will not happen: as will get a situation whereby individuals will be tried not I said to him in Committee, using the Robin Day here but elsewhere. That would be terrible, not just for analogy, we are all here-today, gone-tomorrow politicians. those individuals but for this country’s international Frankly, what will happen is that MOD lawyers will use reputation. this to stop people making claims. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): I had LloydRussell-Moyle(Brighton,Kemptown)(Lab/Co-op): been hoping to manage this afternoon’s proceedings Will my right hon. Friend give way? without a time limit, but I do not think that is going to work; therefore, I am now obliged, in order to try to get Mr Jones: If I must. a fair and equitable debate, to start with a time limit of eight minutes, but that will be significantly reduced later Lloyd Russell-Moyle: My right hon. Friend does not in the debate. If hon. Members who have eight minutes have to if he does not want to. choose in an honourable way to speak for less than Will the passing of the Bill mean that civilians working eight minutes, that would be remarkable. for the MOD down the road will end up having, in effect, more rights than Army service personnel who have served in operations overseas? Does that not bring Tom Tugendhat (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con): The us back to the fundamental issue of the breaking of the right hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) set armed forces covenant, on which the Government really me a target of 30 minutes, Madam Deputy Speaker, and must think again? you have reduced it to eight. It is a crying shame. The Bill’s importance comes down to the penultimate Mr Jones: It does. The Bill’s provisions will also mean points that the right hon. Gentleman was talking about. that prisoners will have more right to sue the MOJ, for The importance of the Bill is all about the Human example, than armed forces personnel. The Minister Rights Act. It is all about the defence not just of British said in Committee, “That’s terrible because you’re service personnel—which is absolutely right—but of comparing armed service personnel with veterans”; no, these islands, this nation and our citizens. The point I am not. I am saying that if the Bill goes through, about this Bill is that the law not only interferes prisoners will have more rights than armed forces personnel. inappropriately in the way that the combat forces of our 221 Overseas Operations (Service 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Overseas Operations (Service 222 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill country conduct themselves, but it actually weakens the Tom Tugendhat: I will carry on. defence of our realm. Let me break down what I mean It is also an issue for the human rights of some of the by that and explain clearly why this is a problem. people we are fighting. Bizarrely, there were situations Weare seeing today armies being stopped from deploying in Afghanistan where individuals could only be detained in certain areas and individual personnel being asked to for a certain number of hours. They could not, for stop operations because the law is geared to a civilian various reasons, be handed over to the Afghan authorities, environment. We have seen legal action brought against despite the fact that we were, in theory, supporting the the MOD to protect the rights of an individual on Afghan Government. It meant that after a certain number operations who has volunteered and specifically stepped of hours—normally about 96 hours—they had to be up to serve in a risky environment, knowing the dangers released. The fact that they were known bomb makers and the consequences. The important difference between who had definitely been handling explosives because the civilian environment and the military one and between, chemical evidence showed it, could not be used, because to use the jargon, international humanitarian law and in order to be used, those people would have had to be international human rights law—or the Geneva convention handed over to the Afghan authorities, and various and civilian law, if you like—is that the law is geared people argued that the Afghan authorities were too to the environment. If it is not, we end up doing inappropriate, too corrupt or too violent. something most unfortunate that nobody in the House wants to do: we end up giving ammunition to the So, what happened? What do you think happens enemy and power to those who would seek to take when someone who has taken up arms against you, power from us. literally tried to kill you and planted bombs to try to maim you cannot be detained? It is simple: after the 3.30 pm legal limit was reached, the prisoners were released and Let me give one example. Today, British forces are followed for a number of hours, until they did exactly actively involved in operations in Ukraine. They are not what we would expect: they went back to a weapons actually on the frontline fighting Russian forces—I cache or arms unit and were engaged again as lawful suppose I should more politely call them mercenaries, military targets. How is that a defence of the human acolytes or something like that. British forces are training rights, even of the individual concerned? the Ukrainian armed forces, and in that sense, they are supporting the Organisation for Security and Co-operation Lloyd Russell-Moyle: The hon. Gentleman, who is a in Europe mission. As part of that job, they are driving good Member and a friend, is making a really interesting around the country. We can imagine a situation where argument, but I fail to understand how it has anything the environment changes and the United Kingdom to do with the Bill. How has limiting the ability of Government decide to change the order from merely service personnel to take civil action against the MOD supporting through training to taking an active part in got anything to do with what he is talking about? How peacekeeping or peace enforcement. If they were to do is requiring a five-year statute of limitations on things that, we can imagine the next scenario: legal action like torture anything to do with what he is saying about bought and paid for by a Russian hand. [Interruption.] the operation in war? Can he explain how the interesting If you do not believe it, you had better start listening. points he is making are relevant to what is in the Bill? I We can absolutely see the possibility that a Russian and, I think, my colleagues fail to see it. hand will use the Human Rights Act, which is currently being deployed in various other ways, to stop our forces Tom Tugendhat: I am sorry that the hon. Member is from deploying by arguing that kit is inappropriate and failing to see it, because I thought I explained it quite that operations are therefore too dangerous for soldiers clearly with the Ukraine example. We also see in other to be deployed. It may be true that the operation is too operations how the use of law has undermined the dangerous or that the risk is not appropriate, but it is combat effectiveness of the armed forces. We see time the job of this House, of Ministers, of generals and and again in operations the opportunity for an individual officers to decide. It is not the job of lawyers. with nefarious intent to try to bring legal action against the MOD to prevent operations. Mr Kevan Jones: I like the hon. Member, but he is talking complete nonsense. If he has read the Smith Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): case, which went before the Supreme Court, he will Will the hon. Member give way? know that combat immunity is completely covered under the Human Rights Act. It did not change that one iota, Tom Tugendhat: I will not give way any more; I had so what he suggests just will not happen. That case two interventions and they are done. We see again and reiterated the point about combat immunity under the again how legal intervention could be used to try to Human Rights Act. prevent operations. That, absurdly, prevents the armed Tom Tugendhat: I am sorry, but the right hon. Member forces from doing exactly what they are there for: to be is completely wrong. If he reads “The Fog of Law” the strong defending the weak. Instead, soldiers deployed written by—oh—me in 2013, a paper for Policy Exchange on lawful operations will not be able to act in defence of written alongside actual lawyers, rather than me, such the most vulnerable. The Bill clearly intends to go some as Richard Ekins, with a foreword written by Lord way towards dealing with that. I do have a criticism of Moses of the Supreme Court, he will see exactly what I the Bill in that it does not go far enough to prevent am talking about. If he reads “Clearing the Fog of multiple investigations, but the Minister for Defence Law”, which explains the situation, he will see clearly People and Veterans, my hon. Friend the Member for why this is a problem. This is absolutely an issue. Plymouth, Moor View (Johnny Mercer) will agree with me on that. It is true that it goes some way, but not Mr Kevan Jones: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? nearly far enough. 223 Overseas Operations (Service 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Overseas Operations (Service 224 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill Dan Jarvis: I declare an interest as a veteran. It is a Dan Jarvis: My hon. Friend raises an incredibly pleasure to be called in the debate and a pleasure to valuable point. That is a real risk and an unintended follow the hon. Member for Tonbridge and Malling consequence of the Bill. I hope that the Minister gives (Tom Tugendhat). I do not share his analysis on this pressing thought to that during the remainder of its occasion, but it is a pleasure to follow him none the less. passage through the House. I begin with what I hope is a point of agreement My hon. Friend will have seen the excellent report by across the whole House. Weall appreciate and understand the Joint Committee on Human Rights, which raised the strength of feeling and high regard that Members significant concerns that the Bill breaches the UK’s across the House have for those who serve in our armed international legal obligations under international forces. Sadly, we are all too familiar with stories of our humanitarian law, human rights law and international armed forces personnel being hounded for years and criminal law. The Committee recommended that at a years. The Bill seeks to address such abuses but—here is minimum, the Government should exclude torture, war where I part company with the Minister and the crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide from the Government—in a manner that I believe will see Britain Bill’s presumption against prosecution. That is precisely reneging on its international legal commitments. I will what the Government should be doing. focus my remarks on the exception of torture from When I spoke to the Minister before Second Reading, the Bill. he said that he was amenable to looking at such changes. Torture, aside from being wholly ineffective, is illegal, I am sure he believes, as I and many right hon. and hon. immoral and inhumane. However, having listened to the Members on both sides of the House believe, that Government’s arguments throughout the passage of the torture is incompatible with the values and standards of Bill, I remain convinced of the need for safeguards on our armed forces. torture. For the most part, Ministers have sought to Jack Lopresti: There is nothing in the Bill that prohibits dismiss the suggestion that the triple lock will weaken any investigation within or after the five years for any our stance on torture, yet an ever-growing number of such acts. There is nothing that favours them; there is legal experts, military figures and parliamentarians on no amnesty, no pardon, and no statute of limitations. both sides of the House think there is a need for a By the way, I enjoyed the hon. Gentleman’s book, which rethink. I read a couple of weeks ago, but I have to say that on It is obvious to see why there is a problem with the this occasion, he is mistaken. Bill. In my view, the Government have taken the correct decision to exclude sexual offences from the Bill. They Dan Jarvis: I thank the hon. Gentleman for the could not have been more explicit when doing so. In comments towards the end of his remarks. There is a response to the public consultation, the MOD said: weight of expert opinion. I am reassured about the strength of the case that I and other hon. Members are “the use of sexual violence or sexual exploitation during conflict seeking to make today by the contacts I have had with is never acceptable in any circumstances.” my former colleagues who are still serving in our armed I believe that the same applies to torture. It is never forces. There is a genuine debate still to be had about acceptable in any circumstances. When pushed on that this. I am sure that the Minister will want to engage matter, Ministers have argued that an allegation of with the substance of the debate. Let us keep talking torture could arise as a consequence of the unique and about it. often dangerous tasks that soldiers are instructed to carry out on overseas operations. That is just not Dr Julian Lewis: When the Defence Committee was correct. The rules on detention and interrogation are looking at the matter in the previous two Parliaments, it clear. The British Army’s training on detainee handling recommended a Bill of this sort provided that the time and tactical questioning is rigorous and leaves no room limit was qualified by the absence of compelling new for doubt. evidence. Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman saying that he does not feel that that proviso is in the Bill? If that There is no debate on what constitutes torture, nor proviso is in the Bill, if there were compelling new can an act of torture be conducted in error or as a result evidence that had not come forward in the first five of a split-second misjudgment. It is a premeditated years but came forward afterwards, then indeed a action for which there can be no justification. There is a prosecution could proceed. reason why our soldiers are taught where the line is: we lose our legitimacy if we sink to the level of our opponents. Dan Jarvis: The right hon. Gentleman makes a very By not excluding torture in the Bill, the Government are important point. I certainly assume that all of us attend taking another step backwards on international law and this debate and seek to make contributions in good on human rights. faith, and I think there is a genuine desire from Members from all parts of the House to improve this Bill. The Stephen Doughty: My hon. Friend is making points Minister has indicated on a number of occasions that in with which I absolutely concur. The prohibition on good faith he wants to have that continuing conversation torture is absolute. I have witnessed first hand the with Members about how we can improve the Bill. training given to our armed forces personnel on the There is still time to do so, and I very much hope that issues that he has described. Does he share my concern, we will not miss out on that opportunity. which was expressed in Committee, that not excluding torture in the way that the Government could have 3.45 pm done, and have done on sexual offences, puts our armed To conclude my remarks, no one here today—none of forces personnel at bigger risk of being taken to places us—is denying that there is a problem with members of such as the International Criminal Court in The Hague, our armed forces being hounded for years. We all know which nobody wants to happen? of occasions and examples where that has happened, 225 Overseas Operations (Service 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Overseas Operations (Service 226 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill and lives have undoubtedly been ruined as a consequence, brought only where there is sufficient evidence that but I believe, and I know that others share my belief, the accused committed the offence and where it is in the that the Bill as drafted is not the answer to resolving public interest that the prosecution should be made. those particular issues. As Judge Blackett said in the There is therefore already a high threshold for prosecution. evidence he gave to the Public Bill Committee: As a result, since 2000, there have been 27 prosecutions. “This will not stop people being investigated and it will not Given how many thousands of members of our armed stop people being re-investigated and investigated again.”––[Official forces have been in operations in difficult circumstances—in Report, Overseas Operations (Service Personnel and Veterans) close quarters with the civilian population, fighting Public Bill Committee, 8 October 2020; c. 120, Q246.] against an asymmetric enemy—that is an astonishingly We must address the deficiencies of the investigative low number. That is not a prosecution system that is out process and provide those who are under investigation of control. That alone shows that the system is not with our full support, but we cannot use deeply regrettable slanted against soldiers. instances of failure to renege on our legal and moral obligations. Let us show some leadership and lead by Dr Julian Lewis: I agree with my right hon. Friend example. I very much hope that the Government will that the prosecution system is not out of control, but think again. does he agree that the investigatory system is? To answer my own intervention on the hon. and gallant Member Mr David Davis: It is a privilege to follow the gallant for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis), is my right hon. and hon. Gentleman, who is a co-signatory with me to Friend aware that clause 3(2)(b) says that the five-year amendments 1 to 10, which deal with the issue of limit will not apply unless torture. If this country stands for anything, it stands for the rule of law. That enhances our reputation abroad “compelling new evidence has become available”? and increases our influence abroad. It is also important Why is he not reassured by that? to the reputation and effectiveness of our armed forces, who are made safer and more effective because of it. Mr Davis: I will tell my right hon. Friend in a moment The right hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) exactly why I am not reassured by that, but he is quite spoke at length about the Bill not dealing with investigations, right that the issue is the repeated investigation of so in the interests of time I will move past that. people who are innocent, in most cases. That is a As the hon. Member for Barnsley Central (Dan harassing and destructive thing. The best known case is Jarvis) said, the Judge Advocate General—the most that of Major Campbell, who underwent eight senior judge in the Service Prosecuting Authority, the investigations. I am afraid that the real blame lay with person who is the most knowledgeable about all these the Ministry of Defence for at least four of them. That issues and who was in place for 16 years when these is what we should address. issues were being dealt with—says that this Bill does not As I say, the prosecution system is not slanted against address the issue. I will quote him again later on, soldiers. I will give the rather gruesome, well known because he is clearly not some left-wing, liberal lawyer example of Baha Mousa, a 26-year-old Iraqi man who, or somebody who wants to undermine the armed forces; in 2003, was dragged from his desk while working as a he is somebody who wants this country to succeed. hotel receptionist by British soldiers, handcuffed and In the witness statements to the Bill Committee, the taken to a detention facility in Basra. Thirty-six hours overriding view of the witnesses was that the principal later, he had been beaten to death, having suffered failing was the failure to include war crimes, crimes 93 separate injuries while in the custody of British against humanity and torture in schedule 1, which in forces. The number of solders convicted of murder as a their view contravenes the UK’s commitment to result: zero. The number convicted of manslaughter: international law and invites the attention of the zero. There was a single conviction of one soldier, who International Criminal Court. confessed to inhumane treatment and got one year in prison. Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): Article 3 of the It is difficult for prosecuting and other authorities to Geneva conventions covers torture and crimes against make out a clear-cut case of torture, inhumane treatment humanity, and there is a convention on torture itself. or even manslaughter, so I do not believe that the When I was a member of the armed forces, we were system operates against the interests of the armed forces. subject to that as our highest priority. Indeed, I often Indeed, on the several occasions on which the Government used the Geneva conventions to justify my actions, and have been asked to produce a case of vexatious the Geneva conventions guide the armed forces. All prosecution—not investigation, but prosecution—they those people who go on operations are guided by the have never been able to name one. That is not surprising. Geneva conventions, I promise that. The Service Prosecuting Authority—the body that brings prosecutions—already dismisses claims that it believes Mr Davis: My hon. and gallant Friend is exactly are vexatious. In evidence to the Joint Committee on right, and I want to see the reputation that comes from Human Rights, Nicholas Mercer, the former Command that preserved after this Bill becomes law. Legal Adviser in Iraq, said: I will briefly address the weaknesses of two parts of “Before I left the army, I gave legal advice on a number of the Bill separately—this addresses directly my hon. prominent cases…I found a case that was without merit and I Friend’s comments: first, the criminal prosecutions and closed it. It was as simple as that. I do not need legislation to do then the civil cases. that. It happens already.”That is a good reflection on our system, Prosecutions against armed forces personnel are not and we should not be ashamed of it. brought by just any lawyer. They are brought by the The area of contention, which has been mentioned Service Prosecuting Authority, which is part of the by the hon. and gallant Member for Barnsley Central, is Ministry of Defence. As it stands, a prosecution can be the triple lock against prosecutions. The Government’s 227 Overseas Operations (Service 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Overseas Operations (Service 228 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill [Mr David Davis] evidence is available in the public domain. A case is difficult. Even in the case of Belhaj, the most famous own stated aim is to raise the bar for prosecutions after torture case—we delivered Mr Belhaj and his pregnant five years. In its scrutiny of the Bill, the Joint Committee wife to the Libyans, for heaven’s sake—it took 10 years, on Human Rights concluded: essentially, to get to court, and of course he got an “a limitation period that would prevent prosecutions is unlawful apology from the Prime Minister. That is why the issue under international law if it prevents investigations and prosecutions of torture is almost impossible to bring to court. in relation to torture, war crimes, crimes against humanity and Time is running out, so I will finish by quoting the genocide.” questions that the Judge Advocate General put to the The Government state that the measure is not a statute Minister in Committee. He said that of limitations. The Law Society, which some may dismiss, “six Royal Military Police were killed…in 2003”, agrees with the JCHR, and concludes that the presumption against prosecution creates a “quasi-statute of limitation” and asked: that is “unprecedented” in criminal law, and represents “would we accept that there would be a presumption against… prosecution” “a significant barrier to justice.” of their murderers? Would we expect special Rather more importantly, the Judge Advocate General, arrangements— whom I described earlier, has said: “In my view, what this Bill does is exactly the opposite of what Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. I will it is trying to do. What it is trying to do is to stop ambulance-chasing let the right hon. Member read the quote before finishing. solicitors and vexatious and unmeritorious claims. The Minister quite rightly said we want rigour and integrity. What it actually does is increase the risk of service personnel appearing before the Mr Davis: I will read the quote: International Criminal Court. That is why I said it was ill “Would we be content that a member of the Iraqi Government’s conceived.”––[Official Report, Overseas Operations (Service Personnel consent would be needed to prosecute? Would we accept a decision and Veterans) Public Bill Committee, 8 October 2020; c.117-18, by that person not to prosecute? In my view, there would be Q234.] outrage in this country if”––[Official Report, Overseas Operations That is the Judge Advocate General, the most expert (Service Personnel and Veterans) Public Bill Committee, 8 October person in the country on this subject. He also described, 2020; c. 128, Q278]— incidentally, the Bill as bringing the Iraqis behaved in that way. The Judge Advocate General said that we should always remember that the “the UK armed forces into disrepute”. law should be “even-handed” to all people. If the Government really think that schedule 1 does not make justice more difficult, they would not have Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP): It is a pleasure excluded sexual offences from the remit of the Bill. If it to contribute to the debate on Report, and to do so is not difficult to get a prosecution, why exclude any early, following the right hon. Member for Haltemprice category? It was right to exclude sexual offences, and and Howden (Mr Davis) and a number of other the Government should exclude torture on exactly the contributors. Time is tight on proceedings, but had the same grounds. That is the point of the amendment in right hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) my name and in that of many others. spoken for the entirety of the Opposition, Members I have a couple of minutes, so I will deal briefly with would have been largely content. I was clear on Second the issue of civil claims. There have been 1,000 civil Reading that, while we support the Bill, many aspects of claims, according to the Ministry of Defence, all of it could have been—and I regret were not—improved in them against the Ministry, not against individual Committee. soldiers—as far as I can tell. Surprise, surprise, someone I will make this broader point at this stage: just trying to get money goes to the Ministry, not to a because the Government have the strength of votes poverty-stricken soldier. However, that does not help does not mean that they have a monopoly on wisdom, veterans; it actually hinders veterans. or that they should not engage more productively and The point has been made by other Members, so I will proactively with some of the concerns that have been press it no further, except to quote the British Legion expressed. I do not say that belligerently or to cause director-general: difficulty; those who have served with me on the Defence “it protects the Ministry of Defence from civil action—from Committee know that I approach such matters sincerely. someone bringing a case. That longstop does not protect the I say it because we want to see the right outcome and armed forces personnel.”––[Official Report, Overseas Operations the right protection for our service personnel. I am (Service Personnel and Veterans) Public Bill Committee, 8 October afraid that, following the Bill Committee, we are not 2020; c. 86, Q161.] quite there yet. We have the opportunity this evening to Of course, what the Bill could stop are the sorts of cases make necessary amendments. that exposed Snatch Land Rover, the lack of provision I will repeat at this stage, although it is not part of the of body armour and a number of other scandals, which Bill, that I resent the fact that Northern Ireland provisions quite properly improved the operation the MOD. have not been brought forward. The Minister gave me a The Bill does the same for torture cases. All the commitment on Second Reading—I am glad that he stories about torture and rendition came in the first did—that the Government will not resile from the instance from civil cases—all of them. That is what commitments that they have given to veterans who brought them into the public domain; there was not a served in Northern Ireland. I accept that progress on single criminal prosecution in the first instance. It is those provisions is now, regrettably, outwith the Minister’s difficult to bring a torture case. In most, only two domain, but that commitment is still there from the people know about the torture: the victim and the Government and we look forward to seeing how they oppressor—the torturer, or torturers. Typically, no other will honour it. 229 Overseas Operations (Service 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Overseas Operations (Service 230 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill 4 pm on the basis that we share those values—that there is an international norm: our guys will not be tortured because Colum Eastwood (Foyle) (SDLP): Does the hon. Member we give a clear commitment that we will not torture recognisethatthereisalreadyaninternationalagreement—it theirs. That goes with this Bill. is called the Stormont House agreement—to deal with issues of legacy in Northern Ireland? It seems now that Stephen Doughty: The hon. Gentleman is making an the Government are determined to abandon that agreement incredibly strong and important point. Does he not also and abandon the victims of the conflict too. Does he agree that it potentially undermines our standing in think that that is a sensible way to proceed—that the some of the key institutions which we are party to Government will again abandon an international internationally? He may not be aware, but we are actually agreement? chair of the optional protocol to the convention against torture subcommittee. The gentleman who chairs it on Gavin Robinson: The hon. Member’s contribution is behalf of the United Kingdom is a graduate of Llanrumney timely. We know what commitments were given during High School in my constituency. We have a key role to the New Decade, New Approach agreement on legacy play in international institutions and in setting standards matters in Northern Ireland, and we wait to hear from for the world. If we undermine that through the Bill, we the Government where they are. Both of us have engaged risk Britain’s reputation globally. in conversations recently about where that may go. While we may wish it to go in different directions, I am Gavin Robinson: The hon. Gentleman is right that not sure that either of us will be overly satisfied with there is a huge danger. The Government are not tearing what emerges. up our international obligations—I accept that. The I want to touch on a number of key aspects of the Government are not resiling from our international Bill. I saw that the Minister, with his normal enthusiasm, obligations to say torture is wrong, it is abhorrent, it is talked at the weekend about some of those seeking to immoral and it is not something that we will engage in. I amend the Bill being “deeply disingenuous”, “repeating agree with the Government on that. But if that is their campaign lines” and position, then why not close the circle in the Bill? Why “talking a good game…but fundamentally unwilling to lift a leave it to others to determine in the International finger” Criminal Court, when those issues should be determined to protect service personnel. He made those comments. here? I say again very clearly that in the context where I am sharing them because I want to say categorically there has been no investigation at all that cannot be that they do not accord with me as a signatory of right, be it five years, 10 years or whatever else. I will amendments 1 to 10, and nor do I believe that they listen thoughtfully to the Minister in his summing up appropriately accord with others who have signed the and hear what he has to say on that. I know he has the amendments. strength of numbers. I know he can push it through. I know he can reject the amendments that have been tabled, I think it is right to say that people are being disingenuous whether they are amendments 1 to 10 or amendment 32. if they think that war crimes or genocide are issues that But I ask him to reflect seriously on that. are precluded under the Bill. They are not—they are Finally, the right hon. Member for North Durham clearly included in schedule 1—but the Government are dealt with this issue well in his new clause 1, but new wrong not to refocus and think again about torture. clause 1 should be what the Bill is about: not dealing Torture should be exempted from the provisions of the with the prospect of a prosecution five years after the Bill. I say that very clearly, drawing on the comments by fact, but dealing with repeated investigations, again and the right hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis). again and again, before the provisions of the Bill are He was right to reflect that clause 3(2)(b) draws on cases ever engaged. That door remains open. We know some where there has been an investigation before, but what it of the Northern Ireland cases that are going through does not do, and what it should do—I referred to this the courts at the moment do not just involve a veteran, on Second Reading—is rule out the provisions of the elderly and frail, but have also included dawn raids on Bill being used where there has not been an investigation an elderly and frail veteran of service in Northern at all. Ireland in the ’70s and ’80s. That is outrageous, but Can it genuinely be the case that where issues are none of that is precluded under the terms of the Bill. raised around torture where there has not been an The investigations issue is worthy of further exploration investigation at all, we accept that the presumption during today’s proceedings. against prosecution should be engaged? I do not think so. I have clearly argued, alongside the Minister as a Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): We will have to member of the Defence Committee, that where the state introduce a five-minute limit now, because of the pressure has discharged its duty through a satisfactory investigation, of speakers. then we can seek to protect our service personnel from prosecution, but not before. Jack Lopresti: I will address briefly some of the We are asking the Attorney General to make the points raised in this excellent debate. First, I would like determination through the provisions of this Bill. That to congratulate the Minister for Defence People and is the very same Attorney General who will be asked to Veterans, my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, agree that, because this Bill is being used, our service Moor View (Johnny Mercer), for his efforts to bring the personnel have to go to the International Criminal Bill before the House. He has been a tireless champion Court. That cannot be right. Take these issues back to of the veterans community ever since he was elected St Aquinas on what a just war is; he considers the and it has been a privilege to serve on the Public Bill morality of war. We as a country stand firmly against Committee with him. And I am so pleased he has had torture. When we engage in armed conflict, we operate his haircut, finally. 231 Overseas Operations (Service 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Overseas Operations (Service 232 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill [Jack Lopresti] of excessive force will be a more attractive option from these states or others who wish us ill. Crucially, other This is a Conservative Government who are delivering NATO allies, such as France, obtain a derogation from on our manifesto commitment to begin to ensure that the ECHR when their forces are deployed overseas on the men and women this House sends on operations, operations. This Bill will put in statute the proviso for often into harm’s way, are safe from the sort of vexatious, Ministers to consider that they would derogate from repeat investigations and harassment that some have the ECHR. had to endure after operations in Afghanistan and Iraq. In welcoming this Bill, I look forward to supporting In this country, we are rightly proud of the men and the Government’s measures to extend similar protections women of our armed forces.In this season of remembrance, to our Northern Ireland veterans, which is long overdue. it is right for the House to be considering legal safeguards This Government are proud to stand up for our armed for them on future operations overseas. The Bill begins forces while they protect human rights, democracy and to address what many have talked about over many the rule of law. years and which we are finally getting to grips with: it provides some reassurance and protection for those Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab): I will deployed in the service of our nation on operations speak to the amendments and new clauses tabled by my abroad in the future. right hon. and hon. Friends on the Opposition Front With the greatest respect to Members across the Bench, those in the name of my right hon. Friend the House, there has been a great deal of nonsense spoken Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) and those that I about this proposed legislation during the passage of have signed tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for the Bill so far. The statutory presumption against Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis) and others. prosecution after five years of any incident does not I do not want to stray too far from the amendments constitute a pardon, an amnesty or a statute of limitations. to hand, but I would like to say that I have sat in on Prosecutors will still have discretion over whether to many Bills in this place and I have yet to see one leave act, bearing in mind the public interest and if there is Committee completely unamended. Most Ministers accept adequate or new evidence, and, critically, after careful that Bills as introduced are never perfect. They engage consideration from the Attorney General, who will act and listen to evidence sessions and Members in Committee, in the public interest. and try to make changes accordingly. It is astonishing Our service personnel are trained to the highest possible that the Bill before us today is identical to the Bill we standard and are taught about the laws of armed conflict, were presented with on Second Reading—astonishing as well as the Geneva convention, as some Members because not a single witness in oral evidence or in mentioned. The Armed Forces Act 2006 clearly states written evidence has expressed full support for the that any criminal act will be considered as an offence presumption against prosecution in part 1 of the Bill or under UK law.This proposed legislation does not overturn the civil litigation longstop in part 2 of the Bill. that principle or statute. This Bill does not make it In fact, there have been strong calls to scrap part 2 of virtually impossible to bring prosecutions for charges of the Bill in its entirety. If the civil litigation longstop part torture—this is not correct—and I welcome the fact of the Bill remains unamended, there is a high risk that that the threshold for a new prosecution will have to be the Ministry of Defence will not be held accountable of an exceptional nature after five years. This legislation for violations of soldiers’ and civilians’ rights. The will dramatically change the existing culture, where our largest proportion of claims made against the MOD are armed forces personnel are seen as fair game by some claims of negligence and of breaches of the MOD’s lawyers. It is right that any investigation must consider duty of care towards its soldiers. Between 2014 and the unique pressures of conflict and decisions made 2019, the available data shows that such claims amounted under great stress. This provision will, I am sure, be to more than 75% of all claims. This legislation will welcomed by serving personnel and veterans. benefit only the Ministry of Defence, yet the Ministry This Bill does not prevent personnel from bringing of Defence is the defendant in all those claims. There is civil claims against the MOD. The six-year time limit a clear conflict. The Minister and the Department have proposed applies from the point of knowledge or the created legislation that protects them from legitimate point of diagnosis. The MOD estimates that 93.8% of legal claims. I am unaware of any other instance of our claims by service personnel or their families arising legislation being drafted in such a way to give such from service in Afghanistan or Iraq would be eligible inbuilt protection to the defendant over the claimant, under the provisions of this Bill. I also welcome the especially when there is already legislation in place establishment by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of under the Limitation Act to strike out any baseless State for Defence of the judge-led review of the wider claims. service justice system. This will I hope ensure that from This Bill allows the MOD to strike out not just the beginning when allegations are made or incidents baseless claims, but any claims, including rightful ones. occur, they will be dealt with more swiftly. Those suffering from hearing loss or post-traumatic The message from this House must be clear to our stress disorder will not always be able to bring claims allies around the world: this Bill does not exclude British within the six-year timeframe, for the reasons many in personnel on operations from their obligations under our Committee’s evidence session gave. international law or the Geneva convention. The wider There remains a lack of clarity about the number of interpretation of the European convention on human people who would be disadvantaged by the longstop, rights has produced additional confusion. In an area but the Government’s impact assessment shows that where we have unattributed forces acting in grey zone at a minimum, 19 injured or bereaved members of the operations, or not wearing uniforms or insignia, the forces community who made claims from operations in opportunity to provoke incidents and then claim the use Afghanistan and Iraq would have been blocked had the 233 Overseas Operations (Service 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Overseas Operations (Service 234 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill legislation we are debating today been in place. One as a regimental sergeant major. Promotion comes from member of our brave forces being blocked from a claim within the ranks. We have lost many to this lawfare and is completely out of order, never mind 19. Crucially, we even worse is the feeling that service personnel and do not know what will happen in the future, but it is veterans are not valued. There have been over 4,000 lawfare likely that there will be drastic unintended consequences compensation claims made against personnel, and only and our forces will have less protection than civilians one went to prosecution. Just think about that litigious and, in some cases—as has been said—prisoners. There process and what it did to the remaining 3,999 people’s is simply no justification for introducing a time limit mental health and wellbeing and the impact on their where one currently does not exist. families, and it was allowed to happen. Opponents of the Bill suggest that it protects soldiers 4.15 pm from prosecution against war crimes and crimes against Time and again, we heard that the problem is with humanity, and I support the comments made by my the investigative process.Major Robert Campbell’sappalling hon. Friends the Members for Filton and Bradley Stoke treatment is something none of us would ever condone, (Jack Lopresti) and for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) regarding yet there is nothing in the Bill that will solve the the Geneva convention. The Bill offers no such protection. problem of investigations. There is nothing in the Bill The service personnel I have spoken to are unanimously that will solve the problem of repeated investigations. affronted by the suggestion that they want and would There is nothing in the Bill that will afford our forces be protected by such an Act. They find the mention of and veterans a duty of care when they are undergoing blanket immunity abhorrent. these investigations. In fact, what the presumption against I cannot miss out on the opportunity to mention prosecution and the exemption of torture and war Northern Ireland. More service personnel died in those crimes does is make it more likely that our forces troubles than in Iraq and Afghanistan put together, and personnel will face investigations from the International I have already received ministerial assurances, but I urge Criminal Court, for reasons outlined clearly by my hon. the Secretaries of State for Defence and for Northern Friend the Member for Barnsley Central and the right Ireland to expedite this provision for those veterans hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis). who served. The Government have rightly identified that there is a problem, and there is a need to provide greater legal Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): The hon. Lady protections to armed forces personnel and veterans brings up a pertinent point. Obviously, the Bill provides serving overseas, but they have drafted legislation that protection, but there does not seem to be the same makes the problem worse. I urge all Government Members protection for soldiers who served on Operation Banner, to look beyond the rhetoric and the political spin, read the greatest operation in British history. Does she feel the actual legislation before them and consider these that this protection should be extended to those who amendments and new clauses carefully before voting served in Northern Ireland on Operation Banner, so tonight to put our armed forces and our veterans at a that they have the same protection as they would have if disadvantage. they had served in Afghanistan or Iraq?

Sarah Atherton (Wrexham) (Con): It is a pleasure to Sarah Atherton: I am just about to say that they, too, follow the hon. Member for South Shields (Mrs Lewell- should be afforded certainty that the unique operational Buck), who is a fellow patron of the women’s veterans pressures placed upon them will be taken into account. charity Salute Her, part of Forward Assist and the only Prosecution decisions are made on alleged historical other female who sits with me on the Defence Committee. offences, and I understand that there will be some In consideration of new clause 1, I remind the House debate in this House on that matter. why the Bill is necessary. The Government of the day I have spent the past few weeks scrutinising the Bill sent the British military into operations in Iraq and line by line in the Public Bill Committee, along with a Afghanistan, and for over a decade after, these troops number of other Members. Is the Bill perfect? No, it is were hounded by lawyers, chasing the money and putting not, but it is infinitely better than where we are now. No our troops through hell once again. So prolific was this Bill or Act will ever suit all people in all circumstances, hunt that it was given the name “lawfare”, and it is this but which group would object to this Bill the most? It is lawfare that we seek to address. the group who would lose out the most: the unscrupulous Over the past few months, I have spoken to a significant human rights lawyers. Service charities welcome the number of serving personnel and veterans about the Bill, although I acknowledge that they have some Bill. What sticks in my mind are five soldiers who reservations. But all service personnel and veterans specifically told me about their experiences of being want to be and should be supported by the Government, investigated through Operation Northmoor and the their politicians and their people. After all, they are Iraq Historic Allegations Team. All were vexatious prepared to, and do, put their lives at risk for us, and claims and four left the service as a direct consequence this is the duty of care these service personnel want. of their treatment—exemplary soldiers all feeling let This Bill goes some way in offering that support, and I down and betrayed. All five believe the Bill would have welcome it. protected them in some form, and they all welcome its introduction. Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): Retention is a big challenge for the military, especially I am grateful to you for the opportunity to take part in the Army. In the British military, we train soldiers to the this debate, Mr Speaker. As the hon. Member for South highest standard. Their professionalism and capabilities Shields (Mrs Lewell-Buck) indicated, it bears a remarkable are renowned across the globe, but the military is a similarity to the one we had on Second Reading, because, bottom-up organisation. Someone cannot enter the Army it would appear, of how matters were proceeded with in 235 Overseas Operations (Service 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Overseas Operations (Service 236 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill [Mr Alistair Carmichael] Joy Morrissey (Beaconsfield) (Con): I thank my hon. Friend the Minister for being a tireless advocate for Committee. That is unfortunate, because on Report the veterans and making this Bill possible. I also thank the House is charged with the more detailed scrutiny of the right hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) for sort we would normally expect to have and the Bill will his loquacious advocacy for veterans throughout the be the poorer for its lack. I have listened with care and Bill Committee.He raised questions about the participation attention, occasionally trying to intervene, but I am of other Members, but I would wager that his words struck by the fact that so many of those who speak in that poured forth throughout the Committee covered favour of the Bill continue to do so on the basis of every aspect of anything we may have an interest in. seeking somehow to limit civil claims being brought against the Ministry of Defence. Stuart Anderson (Wolverhampton South West) (Con): The hon. Member for Wrexham (Sarah Atherton) I was not in the Chamber when that was said earlier, but spoke about lawfare and made a good point; I speak as it is fair to say that I made over 40 interventions in the a distantly former solicitor and the behaviour she refers Back-Bench debate, so I certainly contributed to the to was disgraceful. However, the way to deal with such Bill Committee in that regard, as did many other Members. utterly disgraceful behaviour lies with the regulatory It would therefore be unfair to say that there was no authorities for the legal profession; it is not necessarily contribution from Conservative Members. for this House to start driving a coach and horses through the important protections we all enjoy, which Joy Morrissey: It was indeed an honour to serve on ultimately benefit most of our armed forces personnel. I the Committee, because I myself, although not serving do not understand why part 1—an interference with the in the military, had two brothers who were veterans, and prosecution and the creation of a presumption against I saw the way that war and conflict tore their lives and prosecution in criminal cases—will make any difference our family apart. to the spectacle we saw in relation to lawfare. I have spoken to many veterans who have said that Let me deal briefly with the provisions tabled by the they were at the point of wanting to kill themselves—some right hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones). His attempted it—for the fear of being prosecuted through suggestion in new clause 1 is sensible: judicial oversight these kinds of claims. The Bill protects the men and of some sort for investigatory processes in the context women who have risked their lives and fought to keep us where, as we all know, it is difficult to come by evidence, safe and free. It allows our brave servicemen and women because it has to come from a theatre of conflict. That to go overseas to fight and represent us, and then come sort of protection is sensible, and it is unfortunate that back and safely carry on their lives. That is what the Bill the inadequacy of our proceedings today will not allow was intended to do, and I believe that that is what it will his proposal the sensible scrutiny and debate it deserves. do. However, I wish to focus the bulk of my remarks on I appreciate the plethora of amendments presented amendment 1, tabled by the hon. and gallant Member by the right hon. Member for North Durham. I am for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis) and the right hon. grateful for his studious nature in making sure that we Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis). For have covered every aspect of these clauses. As my right me, the operation of the presumption against prosecution hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East (Dr in relation to torture is the most egregious aspect of this Lewis) mentioned, the investigative system is out of Bill. I suspect that if we could sort that—I am pretty control. The Bill goes some way towards mitigating certain that it will be sorted when the Bill goes to the that, and we could perhaps have gone even further. The other place—then we could probably fairly easily build issue of derogation, which was raised at the start, was a consensus around the Bill: the sort of consensus that, not further discussed, but we could have done so with a by and large, we manage to achieve most of the time in greater level of debate. relation to the conduct of and support for our armed services. Mr Kevan Jones: Will the hon. Member give way? I was struck by what the hon. Member for Filton and Bradley Stoke (Jack Lopresti) said about the various Joy Morrissey: Not at the moment. protections that he claims are within the Bill and how The issue of derogation before an overseas conflict or that would still make it possible to bring prosecutions in an overseas mission is started might go a long way in the exceptional circumstances envisaged by its authors. any claims made retrospectively after the mission and There is some merit in his proposition, but it did occur whatever conflict we have engaged in is completed. to me that if these provisions are adequate for torture, Those are small things that we could have looked at they should also be adequate for protections against in further detail, but I appreciate and support the Bill. sexual offences—but sexual offences are carved out in I am grateful to all those who have contributed, and I schedule 1 expressly because they should never be hope that we will be able to do what we promised in our countenanced under any circumstances. It is absolutely manifesto commitment, which is to take care of veterans. right that they should be carved out in schedule 1 for those reasons, but it is for those reasons that torture should also benefit from the same sort of exemption 4.30 pm that we have seen in respect of sexual offences. Sarah Owen (Luton North) (Lab): Since this Bill The right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden came before us, I have had serious misgivings about its touched on Belhaj. I will say only this: let us remember aim and its effectiveness. As it has progressed unamended, that the Belhaj papers were only found, following the we have heard evidence from military and legal experts fall of Gaddafi, entirely by accident. That is how difficult as well as charities, all stating that the Bill does not it can sometimes be to obtain the evidence of torture. provide the protections that the Government claim it 237 Overseas Operations (Service 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Overseas Operations (Service 238 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill does for our armed forces. Worse than failing to protect the moment, that is a very dangerous path to go down. our armed forces and their families, it risks limiting We are rightly condemning the horrendous abuses by them from holding the Ministry of Defence to account the Chinese state in Xinjiang, the violations of human when it fails to equip armed personnel properly or when rights in Kashmir and the plight of the Rohingya people, it makes serious errors leading to injury and, in some but how can this Government call out other states for cases, sadly, death. That was confirmed when the Royal their use of torture and human rights abuses when they British Legion director general told MPs on the Committee: seek to pass legislation that legitimises the very same? “I think it is protecting the MOD, rather than the service Some Members on the Government Benches have loudly, personnel”.––[Official Report, Overseas Operations (Service Personnel and in some cases rather surprisingly,become self-appointed and Veterans) Public Bill Committee, 8 October 2020; c. 86, champions of protecting human rights overseas, yet we Q163.] will see them again walk through the Lobby to vote for During the past 16 years, there have been 25,000 civil a Bill that erodes the international human rights laws cases against the MOD by British troops who have been that we should all uphold. Our armed forces can and injured or their families. If this Bill goes through without should be held to the same high standards, being protected protecting the armed forces covenant, we could potentially by, and adhering to, the same international law that we see thousands of personnel, veterans and families left expect of others. wanting when what they deserve is justice. When looking at legislation, I always ask, “What’s the problem that Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP): It is a privilege this is trying to solve?” When we compare the 25,000 to follow the hon. Member for Luton North (Sarah civil cases against the MOD with the number of vexatious Owen) in this debate. claims, we should be questioning who is really being protected with this Bill. Unlike the Minister, I completely My colleagues and I support the good intention of agree with the Royal British Legion’s director general: this Bill. It is the right thing to do to protect those who this Bill is about protecting the MOD, not service have protected us and this nation, and indeed many personnel. other innocents, in the face of the threat to life and the oppression of fundamental rights. Johnny Mercer: It is important to correct the record. The Bill is not drafted perfectly, but tonight we have The claims that the hon. Lady refers to have not happened an opportunity to address and debate its deficiencies. overseas, so those figures are not right. This Bill is One area of significant concern is torture. Amendments specifically designed for overseas operations, and the 1 to 10 seek to address that deficiency and, indeed, go a figures that have repeatedly been raised are incorrect. long way towards addressing this matter of grave public concern. That is the right thing to do. Like sexual Sarah Owen: As has been raised many times by offences, torture must fall outside the provisions of this Members on both sides of the House, we would like to Bill. Let us do nothing to undermine the values we hold know exactly how many, yet we are left wanting. dear as a nation. Where no investigation has taken We know that the armed forces risk their lives every place, it is absolutely right that the provisions of this day—[Interruption.] The Minister does not want to Bill do not apply. hear this. I have already had to suggest to him that he should turn off Twitter and listen to the genuine concerns Cognisant of the purposes of today’s proceedings, I of Members around the House. We know that the still wish to raise once again the plight of veterans of armed forces risk their lives every day, and we owe them Operation Banner. I represent many such veterans who a huge debt. We also know that they are sometimes live in my constituency, and indeed hon. Members right faced with difficult decisions, but even in the heat of across this House do so as well. While the operation was war, the rule of law still applies. The Government have in Northern Ireland, those who served came from right provided no rationale for why sexual crimes should be across our United Kingdom and beyond. In the previous excluded from the Bill, but not torture and other war debate on this Bill, my hon. Friend the Member for crimes. All is not fair in love and war. Our armed forces Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) and I asked the Minister are still bound to international humanitarian law, and to state that the provisions of this Bill will not become the Bill risks UK personnel being dragged to the law until the assurances made in the House on 18 March International Criminal Court, which is whyI urge Members regarding Northern Ireland are fulfilled. The Minister to support the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend said in response: the Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis) and the “We are clear that we will deliver our commitments to Northern right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Ireland. In a written ministerial statement on 18 March, we Davis). committed to equal treatment for those who served on Op Banner. Wewill not resile from that position.”—[Official Report, 23 September The exclusion of sexual crimes but not torture is 2020; Vol. 680, c. 1049.] important. Under international law, torture is clearly That is a good intention—it is the right intention—but defined as intentional infliction of very serious or cruel there is no guarantee. I know from our conversations suffering, yet the Minister said in Committee that with veterans that the longer this delay continues the “we expect our service personnel to undertake activities that are more suspicious they get. This is wrong, and I need to intrinsically violent in nature. These activities can expose service know that the Minister believes it is wrong as well, so personnel to the possibility that their actions may result in allegations of torture”––[Official Report, Overseas Operations what is the cause of the delay? Those who await the (Service Personnel and Veterans) Public Bill Committee, 14 October knock at the door for standing up to terrorism deserve 2020; c. 206.] answers, and I urge the Minister to give those answers The definition of torture in international law is clear, today. yet the Minister seemed to deliberately muddle the The Bill is welcome and delivers on promises made violent nature of the work of the armed forces with by the Government, but we must no longer leave some legitimising torture. Given the world that we live in at veterans behind as prey to vexatious prosecutions. That 239 Overseas Operations (Service 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Overseas Operations (Service 240 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill [Carla Lockhart] Hence I am minded against amendments 21 and 22. I agree with the Minister that this would be nonsensical, is wrong, especially if, as suspected, it is for no other as prosecutors should give recognition to the difficulty, reason than to give a sop to the political front of the the trauma and the acute stress of military operations, very people who killed and maimed many of those they as any member of HM forces will testify. served beside. In addition, the Bill confirms that on a case-by-case James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con): Having been basis,a prosecutor can determine that a crime is exceptional, spared the commitment of serving on the Bill Committee, so there is no collision course here with the UN convention I am fortunate also to have been spared some of the against torture, the Geneva convention, the Hague or polarisation that has affected this Bill, so I talk today even NATO, as nothing will be swept under the carpet. from a position of complete objectivity. Having also As for the five-year time limit, this is correct, as the tracked this important journey very carefully for many clock will start ticking from the point at which matters years, both professionally and personally, I believe this come to light, not from the time of the alleged incident. is an essentially good piece of work that deserves a fair That was also the overwhelming preference during the passage through Parliament. public consultation. Not only should it be possible for all the evidence to be gathered within a five-year period, As I stated on Second Reading, any new legislation but I concur with the Minister that memories do fade, needs to be set in the context of the prevailing macro- that evidence does deteriorate and that it remains in the conditions and previous legislation. This Bill fills a void interests of everyone involved to deliver justice quickly. where little has previously existed, so I commend the I do not therefore support amendments 18 and 19, Minister for his vision, resilience and fortitude to date. which seek to lengthen the period to 10 years. This is The bottom line is that this Bill delivers on the ultimately about taking pressure off our people, not Conservative manifesto commitment to address the issue prolonging it. of vexatious claims and makes the first substantial amendments of their kind to the Human Rights Act by Part 2 of the Bill relates to claims by service personnel limiting the time during which claims can be brought. I against the MOD. As 94% of all employer liability can say from experience that this is what our armed claims against the MOD since May 2007 have been forces want. They aspire to better protected in law. They brought within the limitation longstop of six years, I want to know that the country values their service. They agree that there should be a time limit here, too. To be need to know that they will be supported if they pull the fair, I have considered the suggestion that this Bill is trigger lawfully and, after the misery of the ambulance- more about protecting the MOD than it is about protecting chasing years, they want the threshold for prosecution HM forces, but that, too, is ridiculous. I note that the to be raised so that the endless knocks at the door time limit extends here, too, from the point at which the finally stop. This is a no-brainer. issue first came to light. There is more than enough time here for any complaint to be submitted, and the MOD Bob Stewart: Not only the ambulance-chasing lawyers, cannot simply write a cheque for yesteryear. I will be but it is really good that we will not ever see the Iraq voting against new clauses 5 and 6 and amendment 23 if Historic Allegations Team, which really made our soldiers’ they are divided on. lives hell when it investigated them. That will not happen Lastly, I am aware that this Bill has attracted lots of again either. interest in the media in recent months, so I want to set James Sunderland: I could not agree more. the record straight: I am not convinced that the criticism from the Royal United Services Institute, the Royal I am aware that several amendments were tabled in British Legion, the Joint Committee on Human Rights Committee, but none was agreed to. The Bill is hence or other senior figures is necessarily fair, as the Bill essentially unaltered from Second Reading, so perhaps delivers what it says on the tin. Having read it in detail, I it is no surprise that such a large list is being considered am clear,too, that any new presumption against prosecution today. I will admit that some of the amendments have is not a statute of limitations and does not in any way merit. Having been contacted over the weekend by the create a bar to either investigations or prosecutions. eminent hon. and gallant Member for Barnsley Central Unlike some, I have complete faith in both our legal (Dan Jarvis) and my right hon. and gallant Friend the system and our armed forces, so I commend this Bill to Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis), I the House. have looked in particular at amendments 1 to 10. My view, however, is that this Bill will not prevent the UK Lloyd Russell-Moyle: We all agree that the aims of from rightly prosecuting acts of torture, war crimes, the Bill are noble, and that the idea of revolving crimes against humanity or genocide, and that the Bill investigations or a life in investigatory purgatory, never does not need to exclude these from its triple lock knowing when a vexatious investigator will come knocking because existing provisions already exist in law. at the door, is wrong and must end. The mental stress of I also struggle with the notion that the MOD would that legal uncertainty needs clarity. The loopholes need somehow fail to investigate or prosecute, because the to be closed and fixed, but this Bill does not do that. It bad apples will always face justice, as indeed they did does not even come close. In fact, in a number of areas, during my time in uniform. Regarding torture, the it makes things worse. Government’s position is that the presumption against prosecution will not prevent any prosecutor from considering the severity of the crime or the unique 4.45 pm circumstances in which it was committed. Indeed, war On Second Reading, I said that we needed a system is a nasty business, so I do not believe that a court of oversight that limited the investigations and allowed should somehow be prevented from giving weight to the investigations to be paused if they were vexatious or mental health of the individual or the prevailing conditions. unnecessary. New clause 1 proposes a system along 241 Overseas Operations (Service 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Overseas Operations (Service 242 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill those lines. That is where the Bill really should have It is the Conservative party that has always championed ended; the rest of the Bill is almost superfluous. But and defended our service personnel and veterans. It is instead the Government have insisted on adding law. the Conservatives who have consistently defended Trident My view is that, where it is unnecessary, we should not and raised defence spending above the NATO target have law. Bad law, which is what the Government are of 2%. This Bill is doubling down on our beliefs and adding, is often worse than no law. commitments. It is designed to provide our service One of the areas of bad law was dealt with by my personnel and veterans with the protections needed hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Barnsley Central from vexatious claims and repeated investigations. (Dan Jarvis). To prohibit war crimes and crimes against Weshould, of course, hold our armed forces servicemen humanity, which include torture, and to include a specific and women to the highest standards. For that exact mention of torture and genocide, is needed. If people reason, the Bill does not prevent prosecutions where say that that is not needed, the question is, why is it genuine wrongdoing is found to have occurred. The needed for sexual crimes, for which the Government five-year threshold for prosecutions means that victims rightly admit it is needed in the Bill, but not for those have a long window in which to put forward their other serious crimes? allegations. As I understand the Bill, the threshold does The other area that the Bill disadvantages is veterans not apply in cases that are exceptional and begins only themselves. The amendments from the Labour Front from the point of knowledge, such as in the case of Bench would, I hope, correct that, but unless they are post-traumatic stress disorder. passed, it seems that the Bill inadvertently makes veterans Those on the Opposition Benches unfairly claim that second-class citizens in our country in terms of employment the Bill legalises torture and war crimes committed by and liability law. That really cannot stand. It cannot be service personnel, risks undermining our justice system the basis of law to disadvantage veterans over others. and defends only the Ministry of Defence. That is That is a fundamental wrong that should not be allowed ridiculous and demonstrably false. Credible investigations to pass.That is why the Labour Front Bench’samendments can and will be pursued when there is either new compelling are important and must be supported. evidence or, as I mentioned, in exceptional circumstances, The reality is that the current prosecuting requirements such as cases of sexual offences. for public interest are sufficient, in the main, for the For almost 20 years, before I was returned to this issues that the Government are trying to deal with in the place, I often found myself in diverse places spanning other clauses of this Bill. If they are not, renewed four continents, living and working alongside our prosecutory guidelines can always be presented. The courageous armed forces. I am committed to ensuring Bill beyond new clause 1 was actually unnecessary. that those who have, continue to or will gallantly serve When I stand in remembrance, as many—I hope the United Kingdom in our armed forces should not all—Members will next week, of people who have lost have to face repeated investigations years after they their lives, I always say, “Never forget. Never again.” If have served on operations. The Bill advances the protection the Bill passes without amendment, it will be a great of our service personnel, but not to the detriment of shame on all of us, because it will disadvantage our victims or at the cost of our revered justice system. I veterans. It will not uphold their rights or the best urge all Members from all parties to support the passage practice of the best of the British armed forces in this of the Bill. country. The idea that we could see our veterans or active Nadia Whittome (Nottingham East) (Lab): Elizabeth armed service personnel in front of an ICC investigation Wilmshurst, the former deputy legal adviser at the is one of the most shocking parts of the Bill. I can Foreign and Commonwealth Office, says that the Bill imagine an investigation being launched by the ICC calls into question the UK’scommitment to a “rules-based prosecutor in a few years’ time, because they are obliged international system”. As of today, nearly a dozen to look into matters where there is not due process in United Nations human rights special rapporteurs and the home country. I can see that threshold being quite experts have declared that the Bill will violate the easily met. Prosecution may never come, but the terror “UK’s obligations under international humanitarian law, human of the investigation will. I can see the clamouring of rights law and international criminal law”. Government Members who will say, “This is disgusting— The Equality and Human Rights Commission says that foreign prosecutors prosecuting our service personnel!” it is Well, it will be disgusting, and it will be this Bill that will “profoundly concerned by the risk to human rights that this Bill have caused it. We must not allow that. poses.” The Judge Advocate General of the Armed Forces says Imran Ahmad Khan (Wakefield) (Con): During last that the Bill risks bringing year’s general election campaign, the protection of our “the UK armed forces into disrepute”. service personnel and veterans was the biggest issue that I encountered on the doorsteps of Wakefield, beside How can the Minister justify sticking his fingers in his Brexit. From tackling the morally bankrupt state of ears in the face of such grave concerns voiced by legal, homelessness among the veteran population to ensuring defence and human rights experts? Why is this legislation that they are protected from vexatious litigation claims, so out of step with the similar legislation of allied I am proud to stand behind 4,200 veterans in my countries such as the US and Canada? constituency and will continue not only to represent I am proud of the strength and unity of Labour’s and defend them but to champion their causes and opposition to the Bill on final Reading, because our those of their families, and to ensure that they receive party has a record of championing human rights and fair treatment by our society, to which they have given fighting for the dignity of workers and for the rule of so much. law—everything that the Bill flies in the face of. As my 243 Overseas Operations (Service 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Overseas Operations (Service 244 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill [Nadia Whittome] would not have been a popular decision to bring a Bill such as this to the House at that time. This has quite right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Camberwell rightly changed now, and people do support our armed and Peckham (Ms Harman) said at the time of the forces. Maybe that is why people are now saying so much recent publishing of the Human Rights Joint Committee about the forces that they have not said in the past. In report, it is not the drafting of the Bill that is the this House, you cannot move for support for our troops, problem, because it is perfectly drafted in accordance yet it is only now that this Bill is being brought forward. with the policy; it is the policy itself that is the problem. I genuinely think that there is honest support across This Bill is rotten to its core. Speaking of the Human the House for our troops, and that all Members want Rights Joint Committee report, the Minister was unable the best for them. However, words do not protect our to explain which vexatious prosecutions would have troops. We need to go further, and action is what is been stopped by the Bill, so perhaps he can tell us today. needed. As MPs, if we suffer a bad day, we hit the No? I didn’t think so, because the answer is none. What headlines. We might have a media campaign against us, is particularly disrespectful and distasteful is this someone might put graffiti on our office or we might Government’sdisingenuous claim that anyone who opposes end up having harassment. None of that is right, but it the Bill is anti-armed forces. I suppose that includes the passes. It does not change our lives forever. However, Royal British Legion, too. A Government source, in when someone is serving on overseas operations, a split characteristically anonymous fashion, told The Guardian second can change their life forever when that shot is this morning that Labour’s stance on the Bill fired, that improvised explosive device is set off or that “confirms their long-held disdain for armed forces personnel”. rocket comes into their base when they are asleep. A limb is lost. They witness a friend being killed. Ultimately, Let me tell Conservative Members what disdain for our people lose their lives. armed forces personnel looks like. It is shoving through this Bill, despite concerns from the Royal British Legion After an overseas operational tour, something is left and senior military figures; it is breaching the armed on that battlefield. You never come back the same. The forces covenant; it is stripping soldiers of their employment time for words has passed. We now need to support our rights; and it is rewarding new recruits with poverty pay, armed forces, and we need to do so by supporting the with one of the lowest salaries in the public sector at Bill. just over £15,000 a year. For more than 300 years, torture has been illegal in this country. The Bill would 5 pm overturn that principle, and that would be a moment of Gareth Bacon (Orpington) (Con): It is a pleasure to national shame. So tonight, as a matter of pride, I will speak in the debate and to follow my hon. Friend the be voting against this Bill—this irredeemable anti-veteran Member for Wolverhampton South West (Stuart and anti-human rights piece of legislation—for the Anderson). When my hon. Friend the Member for second time. Wrexham (Sarah Atherton) was in her place, she outlined the concept of lawfare. There can be no doubt that that Stuart Anderson: I am sure that I will have a different exists and has been exploited, leading to vexatious view to the hon. Member for Nottingham East (Nadia claims against our brave armed forces personnel over a Whittome). I find myself in a surreal place, because I considerable period of time. have gone full circle. I once moaned, as a soldier, about Cases such as that of Major Robert Campbell are not enough being done in this House for the armed absolutely scandalous. This man had to face eight separate forces. Now, I am contributing to legislation that I investigations over 17 years into a single incident that honestly believe will have a positive impact on our took place back in 2003. He is only 47, so we are talking armed forces. about more than a third of his life. Each investigation Looking back at the different overseas operations I cleared him, only for the goalposts to be moved for each have served on and being able to bring those experiences successive investigation. The toll taken on that completely to the House has been a huge honour. I was fortunate innocent man, who put his life on the line for his enough to speak in the first debate about what I did on country, is enormous. operations, and also to sit through several weeks of Tragically and shamefully, he is not alone. To put it scrutiny on the Bill Committee. I have learnt a lot into perspective, a long-running streak of claims have during this process, and gained a greater understanding been dismissed as far back as the 2009 al-Sweady inquiry, of the huge complexities involved in bringing legislation which took five years, cost £25 million and the conclusion through this House. It is clear that the Minister for of which was that the allegations were Defence People and Veterans has done so much to get “wholly without foundation and entirely the product of deliberate the Bill here, and I pay tribute to all the work he has lies, reckless speculation and ingrained hostility”. done to get it to this stage. Furthermore, the Iraq historic allegations team determined When I look at all that is said in this House in that 70% of cases did not have a case to answer or that it support of our armed forces, I scratch my head and would be disproportionate to conduct an investigation. wonder why it has taken this long to bring this legislation Similarly,as of June, the service police legacy investigations to the House. I have looked back and reflected to try to had closed or were in the process of closing 1,200 find out why this was the case. When I joined the Army allegations. Operation Northmoor, which took three straight from school several decades ago, the armed years and cost £10 million, resulted in no charges, but forces were not popular. We were not high on satisfaction all that takes significant time and causes huge distress ratings. We were not allowed in any of the places in the to those under repeated investigation. towns where we were posted. We were restricted from Our servicemen and women make enormous sacrifices most places we went to. People did not come out into on behalf of our country and the practice of hounding the streets and clap for the armed forces, so maybe it them must come to an end. It is therefore right that the 245 Overseas Operations (Service 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Overseas Operations (Service 246 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill Government seek to raise the bar for prosecutions in Ireland out, and leave Operation Banner soldiers out, overseas operations by requiring prosecutors to have because in theory Northern Ireland is not overseas, and proper regard to the uniquely challenging circumstances service in Northern Ireland is not an overseas matter: it into which we send our personnel to risk their lives on is a local matter—a domestic issue. But the Government’s our behalf, as we heard from my hon. Friend the manifesto commitment was to all of their personnel, Member for Wolverhampton South West. and no matter what way we cut it, and no matter what Opponents of the Bill have said that it would issue an the small print may now say, those brave and gallant amnesty for torture and war crime offences, but that is people and soldiers who served in Northern Ireland simply not the case. As the Minister has been at pains to under Operation Banner have been jettisoned by this make clear, the Bill does not provide blanket immunity piece of legislation. from prosecution; it merely raises the threshold for the prosecution of alleged offences. Those opponents have Johnny Mercer: It may be helpful if at this stage I also claimed that it would damage the reputation of our restate to my hon. Friend the commitment in the armed forces. I question instead what sort of a country Conservative manifesto, which we do not resile from we would be if we allowed our armed forces to continue one bit—that those who served with such distinction in to make enormous personal sacrifices only to return a very, very difficult time in Northern Ireland will be back home and be at the mercy—for years—of tank- entitled to equal treatment when that Bill is brought chasing lawyers such as Phil Shiner, who was, of course, forward. They have not been jettisoned, they have not struck off for his actions. The Minister has outlined at been forgotten about, and we will not leave them behind. length how the Bill meets the UK’s obligations under domestic and international law. I look forward to hearing Ian Paisley: I thank the Minister for getting to his feet him do so again in his closing speech. and making that commitment again from the Dispatch Box. That is important, and will go some way to alleviate Most Members on both sides of the House sincerely some of the concerns that have been expressed. support our armed forces, but there have always been some who have taken sides against our armed forces I would just say this. People in Northern Ireland—for and shown no respect whatsoever for our veterans. I am good cause—do not believe in the good will of the not among them. I am inclined to agree with my hon. Northern Ireland Office and its mandarins there. They Friend the Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Tom believe that their attitude to our armed services is that Tugendhat), who said that the Bill goes some way to they are expendable, and that there will be a time, when protecting our armed forces but probably not far enough. push comes to shove, and if it is expedient, that our However,it does improve the current unacceptable position. soldiers who served in Operation Banner and the police I therefore support the Bill to protect our armed forces. officers in the gallant RUC who supported them would be easily jettisoned in some sort of trade-off with the people who were quite happy to fire bullets at our Ian Paisley: May I say at the outset that I am extremely armed service personnel. proud of our armed services and their conduct, their calibre and their gallantry? They are well renowned and Bob Stewart: I support exactly what my very great well supported across Ulster. They are applauded, and friend is saying, but may I point out to the House that have been for many years, even through the dark years no Bill will protect someone like Dennis Hutchings, when people did not like the armed services so much, who has been repeatedly brought back and reinvestigated, because people know the sacrifice that young squaddies in Northern Ireland or elsewhere? This legislation will made to hold the line between peace and chaos in a part not be retrospective, as I understand it. Does my hon. of the United Kingdom. They were, and are, applauded. Friend agree? In principle my party welcomes the Bill and wants to support it. We do think there are many ways in which it Ian Paisley: I thank my dear friend, who has travelled could be improved, and we hope the Minister is listening widely in Northern Ireland, both as a soldier and as my to those calls for improvement. Weare bitterly disappointed guest in my constituency, with former squaddies. The that the legislation will fulfil only part of the Government’s applause that they gave to him is now legendary in manifesto commitment—part of the commitment on Ballymoney; but the Minister will forgive me for saying which Members canvassed around the whole of this that probably the less said about that adventure, the nation to obtain support. I will come to the detail of better for both of us. that in a moment. Some Members have made the point that it is difficult When I was a student at university, I had a tutor from to make a prosecution stick. One of the cases that got Germany. She recounted to me a story about one of her me into active politics was that of the UDR Four, on earliest and most confusing experiences of Northern which I worked as a researcher, where four soldiers were Ireland. She wanted to call a colleague here at King’s wrongly convicted of the murder of a civilian in Northern College London, and for her it was not a problem. She Ireland. Many Members have advocated today the books picked up the phone, she dialled the number, and she that they have written on these subjects. I actually did was told by the switchboard operator at Queen’sUniversity, write the book on the case for the UDR Four, with an “That’s fine—that’s a local call.” Some time later, she exceptional foreword by Robert Kee, the eminent historian. had to call a colleague at Trinity College, Dublin, but In that book, we detailed the case for those soldiers and she was not able to make the call, and was told by the how their conviction should be quashed. I am delighted switchboard operator, “Oh, that is an overseas call, to say that three of those convictions were quashed, but down to Dublin.” it took us 10 years to get that case before the courts and So I understand the confusion that some people to have those wrongful convictions quashed. So I do might have,and indeed the justification that the Government not buy that prosecutions will be hard to pursue and have put into this piece of legislation to leave Northern make stick. 247 Overseas Operations (Service 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Overseas Operations (Service 248 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill [Ian Paisley] Kim Johnson (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab): When the Government brought this Bill forward, their aim was to There is, unfortunately, an unhealthy appetite out end vexatious claims against former service personnel there among some people to blame veterans and our and the Ministry of Defence, but the evidence does not armed services. That will not end with this Bill, but we bear out what the Government say is the scale of the wish it Godspeed and hope that we can get a piece of problem. No service personnel, present or former, deserve legislation that will defend our armed services with the to be investigated and prosecuted for a crime they did integrity that the Minister speaks with. not commit, or to be repeatedly investigated without good reason, but the figures, as the Government well Olivia Blake (Sheffield, Hallam) (Lab): I rise to support know, are not of a scale that would justify the proposals amendments 1 to 10 in particular. I thank my hon. and in the Bill. gallant Friend the Member for Barnsley Central (Dan In relation to Iraq, only a handful of prosecutions Jarvis) for his eloquent argument for the amendments, have been brought against junior personnel. and I thank the right hon. Member for Haltemprice Of the civil prosecutions against the MOD over the past and Howden (Mr Davis) for putting them forward. I am five years, just 0.8% related to Iraq. The Minister has proud to have put my name to them. said, in relation to the majority of the repeat investigations I fear that the Bill fails to meet our obligations on or delayed prosecutions, that human rights abroad, but it also fails to meet our “one of the biggest problems…was the military’s inability obligations to service personnel when they return home. to investigate itself properly and the standard of those The UK should rightly aspire to be a global torch-bearer investigations…If those investigations were done properly for human rights, and our military should be held to the and self-regulation had occurred, we probably wouldn’t highest professional standards.The triple lock and five-year be here today”. limit on prosecutions in the Bill make a mockery of any claim that we might have respect for human rights and Rather than put forward proposals to tackle the real international law.Human rights do not change depending reason behind any repeat investigations or delayed on the miles travelled or the borders crossed. They are prosecutions, the Bill instead proposes unprecedented universal and non-negotiable. From Hallam to Herat, and dangerous legal protections, which will create a we all have the right to live free from torture and war legal regime that secures immunity for serious offences crimes. That is why I was appalled to read in the report and inequality before the law for victims of abuse and of proceedings in Committee that Ministers had excluded armed forces personnel. torture because “we expect our service personnel to undertake activities that are 5.15 pm intrinsically violent in nature,”––[Official Report, Overseas Operations The former professional head of the armed forces, (Service Personnel and Veterans) Public Bill Committee, 14 October 2020; c. 206-207.] Lord Guthrie, has said that he is dismayed by the proposals. The Bill, in his view, which may lead to “allegations of torture” or “war crimes”. “provides room for a de facto decriminalisation of torture”, Torture is clearly defined in international law. It is which, in turn, never accidental. It is not a grey area. It is an intentional “would be a stain on Britain’s standing in the world.” act of inflicting very serious and cruel suffering on It is noted that sexual violence is exempt from the time another person. It cannot be justified with heat-of-the- limitations, but not murder or torture. Not only does moment arguments, and it is ridiculous to say that that undermine the fundamental credibility of the Bill, conventional military operations could be mistaken for as General Nick Parker, former commander of the land torture. Alongside hundreds of constituents who have forces of the British Army,has said, but it risks undermining contacted me about the Bill, I completely oppose any Britain’s long-standing and proud adherence to a number suggestion that there are any circumstances in which of treaties and conventions,notably the Geneva convention. torture might be excusable. How do this Government think that the Bill, as it Not only are these proposals an affront to human stands, in decriminalising torture, enhances the standing rights, but they fail to support our veterans, the group of our armed forces? It is more likely to risk British the Government say they are defending. The largest service personnel being dragged into prosecutions at the number of civil claims made against the MOD are International Criminal Court in The Hague. That is not claims of negligence brought by former soldiers. The my theory, but that of Judge Advocate General Lord proposal for a six-year limit on lodging civil claims Blackett, our most senior military judge. makes it harder for ex-military personnel to sue the If the true aim of this Bill was to support serving or MOD for failure in its duty of care to them. It means ex-forces personnel, it would not have included the time that troops who develop PTSD, blindness and other limit on the ability of service members to bring claims conditions will be left with no recourse to justice. Far against the MOD for negligence and maltreatment. from supporting veterans, the Government’s proposals There is plenty of evidence to show how the impact of are entirely self-serving. overseas operations on service personnel is not immediately We should reject any attempt to run down the clock apparent, with post-traumatic stress disorder especially on civil claims, and there can be no “get out of jail free” taking a long time to diagnose—often years after service cards for torture or war crimes. There is no stopwatch has ended. How is this fair or just, and how is that on justice, and there are no exceptions—no ifs or buts—on helping our armed forces personnel? torture or human rights. That is why I will join colleagues It is a fact that the MOD benefits most, and this Bill in supporting amendments 1 to 10 this evening and in will make it harder for anyone, civilian or soldier, to voting against the Bill. hold the Ministry of Defence to account for unlawful 249 Overseas Operations (Service 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Overseas Operations (Service 250 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill actions and human rights abuses. Why does the Minister Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Wind-ups will continue to ignore the impartial advice of the British Legion begin at 5.26, so I will ask whoever is on their feet at that the Bill risks breaching the armed forces covenant, that time to resume their seat. and will he not take another look at the amendments that will prevent that from happening? Unamended, Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance): I have this Bill benefits only the Government and offers no co-sponsored a number of amendments in the hope— support to our armed forces, and I cannot support it. perhaps it is naive—that some of the rougher edges of the Bill can be improved. Ultimately, I think this Bill is Apsana Begum (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): I am flawed from top to bottom and is unnecessary. We have, grateful to be called in this important debate. for example, existing prosecutorial tests. One is the I believe that this House should promote internationalism evidential test and the second is the public interest test, that is anti-imperialist and peace seeking, yet as I have which are more than adequate to take into account raised before in this House and as has been noted by some of the concerns raised by Members. The Bill also many, the Bill before us could result in torture and other raises the question whether our judiciary are not capable serious crimes being protected from prosecution five of weeding out vexatious claims whenever they come years after being committed. That is so clearly in breach before them. I believe they are, and we should have of the human rights of those affected by conflicts confidence in their abilities to address those very points. involving UK armed forces. Due to the amount of time The Bill creates some very difficult and unnecessary that trials relating to services personnel often take, the precedents by breaking up the long-standing convention five-year period proposed in the Bill is likely to mean that everyone is equal before the law. There is no need to that many prosecutions would not be made. Indeed, the put in place measures that create additional prosecutorial whole tenor of this Bill is to deter cases being brought tests and hurdles to be jumped in relation to certain regardless of their merit. I echo Grey Collier, advocacy categories of people—even those who on the face of it director at Liberty, when I say that a war crime does not are incredibly deserving of our support, such as our stop being a war crime after five years. This Bill also veteran community and current active service personnel. offers no protection to armed forces personnel; neither The most egregious aspect of the Bill is what it does does it offer them access to justice. in relation to torture. A number of Members have already said this, but in effect it decriminalises torture. I Bob Stewart: I thank my good friend the Deputy say “in effect” because that is not on the face of the Bill. Speaker and the hon. Lady for allowing me to intervene. That is the outworking of what the provisions entail. I do not understand why she thinks a war crime will not People will say that torture and war crimes can still be be a war crime after five years. A war crime is a war prosecuted through the courts, but it is a fact that a crime forever, and if the Attorney General considers it triple lock of additional hurdles, which do not exist for to be a war crime, it will be brought to a court. I do not any other category of criminal offence, is to be put into think this Bill stops a war crime being prosecuted if a law, and that makes this situation much more difficult British soldier, sailor or airman carries one out. and challenging. Apsana Begum: I thank the hon. Gentleman for making I am conscious that we are all looking across the his point, but I disagree with him. The point I am Atlantic today to see what happens in the US presidential making is about prosecution and allowing for that war election, and there is a clear interest in ensuring that the crime to be considered by the courts. values of decency and support for democracy, human If I can continue, I believe in a fair justice system for rights and the rule of law prevail over those who are all. Such a system would have built into it access for pursuing other agendas. At the same time, it is deeply justice for armed forces personnel and those bringing troubling that the Government, and potentially this cases against them. Most fundamentally, in order to House, are willing to implement measures on torture in pay tribute and show respect to those who have lost legislation that overturns centuries of precedent. That their lives in foreign conflicts—both from the UK and should be very troubling to us all. abroad—we must set in place a system of transparency Bob Stewart: I rise to oppose that comment. The Bill and political accountability. We must face head-on the does not decriminalise torture. Torture remains a major lasting effects that wars in, for example, Iraq and crime, and I speak as someone who has given evidence Afghanistan and sectarian conflicts have had on the in five war crimes trials at The Hague. Torture is torture, lives of many in the UK and around the world. It is only and it is still something that the Government deeply with proper accountability and transparency that we oppose. The Bill does not actually legitimise torture in can ensure that such mistakes and injustices are a thing any way. of the past. Hiding from accountability does not do anyone favours. Stephen Farry: I am grateful to the hon. Member for Rather, it feeds mistrust, because for most people it is his comments. I very much respect his service, and his only those who have something to hide who fear scrutiny. commitment in that service to upholding the rule of law Going to war and other activity by the armed forces and the highest standards of international humanitarian involve decisions about some of the most fundamental law. The point I am making, however, is that while on values, and people have the right to know what is being the surface the Bill does not do what he says, the fact done in the name of our country. that the triple lock and the additional prosecutorial I conclude by saying that this Bill will act only to hurdles in effect create that outcome is, I think, deeply entrench a culture of fear and mistrust, increase the risk troubling to us all. of crimes being committed overseas and instigate an There are just two other points I want to make in opaque justice system, benefiting neither armed forces conclusion, to try to let someone else say a few words. personnel nor the victims of war. First, anyone who opposes the Bill today should not 251 Overseas Operations (Service 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Overseas Operations (Service 252 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill [Stephen Farry] Stewart Malcolm McDonald: Yes, that is entirely correct. Or we could take the former Conservative Defence be labelled as someone who is opposed to our armed Secretary, Sir Malcolm Rifkind. I think I said in the forces. It can be viewed and construed as respecting our previous debate that he is not exactly known as a armed forces. Let us ask ourselves the question: what sandal-wearing, lentil-munching, Guardian-reading lefty was it that they were actually fighting for, particularly hipster type, is he Mr Deputy Speaker? I suspect you when they were in Iraq and Afghanistan? I appreciate know him way better than I do, although we have some that both of those interventions were controversial in experience of him in Scotland, of course. He is against many respects, but surely it is about peace, upholding the provisions in the Bill. So when the Minister chunters the rule of law in those countries and upholding away that what I have said is incorrect, I am afraid what international law? We therefore do ourselves a great he needs is a mirror, because what he is saying is disservice if, in recognising their contribution, we in fundamentally incorrect. turn undermine those very values in what we do in the It did not have to be this way. Back in that Second Chamber today. Reading debate, I said, along with others, that we would My final point relates to Northern Ireland. Members try to bring forward amendments to get a Bill we could have made reference to potential legislation in that support. But with every attempt to do so—we will see it regard. I do not look forward to seeing similar legislation again, I am quite sure—we have had the door slammed being put in place for Northern Ireland— shut in our faces. The Minister might win in the Lobby tonight, but for Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. We a man so convinced of his powers of charm and persuasion, must come to the winding-up speeches. I call Stewart he has failed to bring forward a Bill that the House can Malcolm McDonald. unite behind. Those who were here before the election, and who have been in the few defence-related debates Stewart Malcolm McDonald (Glasgow South) (SNP): we have had since, will know that, on defence matters— I am grateful, Mr Deputy Speaker, and I am only sorry setting aside the nuclear question, certainly for myself—there we did not get to hear the end of the speech by the hon. is actually a lot of consensus in the House. So why is it Member for North Down (Stephen Farry). that the one Minister who brings forward a Bill on I rise to support the new clauses, and to speak to issues of security, supporting the armed forces and the amendment 32 in my name and those of my hon. rule of law, where that consensus exists, has failed to get Friends. I want to begin by thanking my hon. Friends any Opposition Member to support him? It is his failure the Members for Glasgow North West (Carol Monaghan) that the Bill will divide tonight, with one or two honourable and for West Dunbartonshire (Martin Docherty-Hughes), exceptions, between Government and Opposition Benches. who served on the Bill Committee, among other hon. Members who find themselves here this afternoon. I am 5.30 pm afraid to say to hon. Members, particularly those who The hon. Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) were with us on Second Reading, that very little has made a fine point, and it speaks to the purpose of changed from what I said then. In fact, almost nothing amendment 32. If what Conservative Members are has changed from what I said then and that is a great saying on torture is correct—if there is really nothing to shame. It is the case, then as now, that senior legal, worry about—I expect all of them to have no issue military and political opinion was united in consensus whatsoever with going into the Lobby with Opposition against the Bill. That has not changed. [Interruption.] Members tonight to ensure that torture is removed That did not take very long, did it? The Minister should from the provisions of the Bill that we are so concerned not worry; I will come to the points that he loves to about. Of course, I do not think we will see that. chunter. What we have here is a Bill that does not do what it says it wants to do. I think we all agree that the flawed Stuart Anderson: It is not fair to say that opinion is investigation system needs to be fixed. We are in this united against the Bill. That is not factual from the situation because the Bill does not address that. The Bill evidence given to the Bill Committee. ensures that members of the armed forces will be further exposed to the International Criminal Court, which I Stewart Malcolm McDonald: Well, we will go through do not believe any Member wishes to see. As has been some of that evidence, shall we? We will go through highlighted time and again, the Bill is written in such a some of the comments made by senior military, legal way as to protect the Minister and his officials in Main and political opinion that make it quite clear that what I Building, not to best serve members of the armed forces have said is correct. I accept, of course, that there are and veterans. differences of opinion within those fields, but it is the case, I am afraid to say to the hon. Gentleman and to Lloyd Russell-Moyle: Does the hon. Member share the Minister chuntering at me from the sidelines, that my worry that potentially putting our armed forces up senior military, legal and political opinion believes that against the International Criminal Court could be the the Bill is farcical in several respects. I will go through beginning of a path to undermining the Court itself? It them in turn. is quite easy to see a situation where British service personnel are investigated, and then Conservative Members Mr Kevan Jones: We cannot get more distinguished start braying for us to leave the Court in its entirety. than the Judge Advocate General, Judge Blackett, who was firmly of that opinion. The Minister did not perhaps Stewart Malcolm McDonald: That is exactly the slippery listen, but the judge made his position about the Bill slope I fear we are on. I hate the phrase “the thin end of very clear. the wedge”, but I am afraid that it rather fits where we 253 Overseas Operations (Service 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Overseas Operations (Service 254 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill are with this Bill and this Government. We have those “The presumption against prosecution does not stop the senior opinions in military, legal and political circles investigation; the investigation happens.”—[Official Report, Overseas against the Bill. That is before we get to the recent Operations (Service Personnel and Veterans) Public Bill Committee, damning report by the Joint Committee on Human 8 October 2020; c. 127, Q275.] Rights, which made clear the number of flaws in the The expert from Policy Exchange, Professor Richard Bill. Ekins, who originally published “Clearing the fog of war”, said: I am conscious of time, so I will conclude. The “It certainly does not stop investigations. In fact, if one were to Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee, the hon. make a criticism of the Bill, one might say that it places no Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Tom Tugendhat), obstacle on continuing investigations”.––[Official Report, Overseas suggested that, were we to change our defence posture Operations (Service Personnel and Veterans) Public Bill Committee, with regard to training or peacekeeping in supporting 6 October 2020; c. 35, Q63.] Ukraine, we could be subject to what he called “a On criminal prosecutions, the former Commander Russian hand” trying to take legal action here—no Land Forces in the Army, General Sir Nick Carter, said: doubt that Russian hand is a Tory donor. That is “I do not understand why sexual acts have been excluded, but exactly the kind of thing that would see UK personnel not murder and torture. I do not understand why that distinction further exposed to the International Criminal Court. has been made”.––[Official Report, Overseas Operations (Service Personnel and Veterans) Public Bill Committee, 8 October 2020; Bob Stewart: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? c. 96-97, Q196.] The Judge Advocate General again, as the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) stressed, Stewart Malcolm McDonald: No, I am going to wind said of the Bill: up. “What it actually does is increase the risk of service personnel The Minister has to take that into account, but he has appearing before the International Criminal Court.”––[Official failed, and the failure is his alone. I do not want him to Report, Overseas Operations (Service Personnel and Veterans) think that, when he gets his way tonight, the job is done. Public Bill Committee, 8 October 2020; c. 117-118, Q234.] The job is not done. He has promised the House legislation On civil claims, the former chairman of the British to fix the investigation system. My goodness, I hope he Armed Forces Federation said: will do a better job on that than he has done on this Bill. “Imposing an absolute time limit places armed forces personnel claimants themselves at a disadvantage compared with civil claimants John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): This is in ordinary life”.––[Official Report, Overseas Operations (Service not a wind-up speech. We have had a good debate, with Personnel and Veterans) Public Bill Committee, 6 October 2020; 23 Back-Bench contributions, some really good speeches c. 9, Q6.] and serious concerns about the Bill raised on both sides The director for the Centre for Military Justice said that of the House. We are legislating, and I want to say to “it is quite extraordinary that part 2 will only benefit the Ministry the Minister that it is wrong to see all criticism as of Defence, and the Ministry of Defence is the defendant in all opposition or all opposition as hostility.The Government those claims.”––[Official Report, Overseas Operations (Service Personnel and Veterans) Public Bill Committee, 6 October 2020; never get everything right, especially with legislation, c. 57, Q108.] and no one has a monopoly on wisdom, especially Ministers. I say to him, it is wrong to dismiss anyone The director-general of the Royal British Legion said arguing for amendments to the Bill as ill informed or ill of the Bill: willed. There has never been a Bill brought to this “I think it is protecting the MOD, rather than the service House that could not be improved—this is certainly one personnel”.––[Official Report, Overseas Operations (Service Personnel and Veterans) Public Bill Committee, 8 October 2020; c. 86, of those. That is our job as legislators. Q163.] When my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth Bob Stewart: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? South (Stephen Morgan) pressed him— “So it would breach the armed forces covenant, in your view?”— John Healey: I will not give way, if the hon. Gentleman he replied: does not mind. I am going to deal with some of the “That is what we think, yes.”––[Official Report, Overseas Operations points made in the debate, despite this not being a (Service Personnel and Veterans) Public Bill Committee, 8 October wind-up speech. 2020; c. 84, Q155.] From the outset, I have said that Labour wants to Our new clause 7 and our amendment 38 are designed help build a consensus to convince the Government on to sit alongside the amendments of my right hon. the changes needed to make this legislation fit for Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones). The purpose—that is, a new legal framework for this country answer to the right hon. Member for New Forest East when we have in future to commit our servicemen and (Dr Lewis) about the number of investigations is this: women to conflict overseas. There has been a long-running only 27 prosecutions have arisen from Iraq and Afghanistan, problem, with baseless allegations and legal claims arising yet 3,400 allegations were considered by the Iraq Historic from Iraq and from Afghanistan under both Labour Allegations Team and 670 from Operation Northmoor. and Conservative Governments. But this Bill, as it Therefore, less than 1% of allegations were prosecuted. stands, is not the solution. The problem here is investigations.The serious,consistent The Public Bill Committee heard powerful evidence problems lie in a system of investigation that has proved on a series of problems that our amendments on Report, to be lacking in speed, in soundness, in openness, and and others on the amendment paper, are designed to in a duty of care to alleged victims or to the troops fix. I want to stress the strength and depth of those involved. Those are all problems well before the point of criticisms. On investigations, the former Judge Advocate decision about prosecution, which is the point at which General, Geoff Blackett, said: the provisions of the Bill kick in. 255 Overseas Operations (Service 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Overseas Operations (Service 256 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill [John Healey] are under the Bill at present. It is simply wrong for those who put their life on the line serving Britain overseas to That is a widely held criticism. It is a widely held have less access to compensation and justice than the conviction, one held by the Minister himself. Before he UK civilians whom they defend—or indeed than their became a Minister last year, he declared that comrades whose service is largely UK-based. There are “one of the biggest problems….was the military’s inability to already safeguards in the Limitations Act 1980, but investigate itself and the standard of those investigations…If part 2 penalises this group of people by applying to those investigations were done properly…we probably would not them a unique deviation from that Act. That clearly be where we are today”. constitutes a disadvantage for those armed forces personnel, He was right then; he is wrong now to resist using the their families and veterans. It directly breaches the Bill to correct those problems. armed forces covenant, as the director general of the Another review, Minister? Look, there have been Royal British Legion has confirmed. Frankly, it beggars three reviews—and this one will be chaired by Richard belief that Ministers are asking Members of this House Henriques—in the last five years. There are more than to strip forces and their families of their right to justice—to 80 recommendations on investigations that the Government penalise them, instead of protecting them. Our new could act on. For goodness’ sake, get on and do that! clause 5 flatly rejects that. The amendments are in scope,workable and implementable. The Bill is an opportunity to fix long-standing problems. On the duty of care and our new clause 6, one of the I hope the Government will start to see our proposals things that struck me most when talking to troops and on investigations as being additional to what is in the their families who have been through the trauma of Bill, not as a direct challenge. these long-running investigations is that they felt cut adrift from their chain of command and from the Part 1 of the Bill restricts prosecutions of certain Ministry of Defence. We heard that clearly from Major offences. The Bill’s purpose is to make it harder to Campbell, who gave such dramatic evidence to the prosecute British troops for some of the most serious Committee. When he was asked what support the MOD crimes under the Geneva conventions. It does that by gave him, he simply replied, “there was none.” Of course, legislating for a presumption against prosecution after for veterans, it is even worse: for them, there is nothing, five years. Our new clause 4 deals with that presumption not even the chain of command, as Hilary Meredith, against prosecution; it replaces it with a requirement on the specialist solicitor told the Committee. I have to say the prosecutor, in coming to a decision, to take into to the Minister that although some of the previous account the passage of time, and whether it prejudices decisions—for instance, to cover the legal costs of those the prospect of a fair trial. who were involved in the Iraq Historic Allegations The Government say that sexual crimes, in all cases, Team investigation—were welcome, there is a higher are so serious that they will be excluded from this standard to reach for us in this regard. I hope that, as presumption, but they are placing crimes outlawed by we move the Bill into the Lords, he will use new clause 6 the Geneva conventions—torture, war crimes, crimes as a model so that we can establish a new duty of care against humanity—on a lower level, and downgrading standard providing legal, pastoral and mental health our unequivocal British commitment to upholding support to those who are put under pressure and under international law. That poses the direct risk that the investigation or prosecution. I hope that he will do the International Criminal Court will act to put British same with our amendments on derogation and on the armed forces personnel on trial in The Hague if the UK Attorney General’s veto. We need greater transparency. justice system will not. We need some role for Parliament in both those areas, Let me dwell on that point. The contradiction that we and I know the Lords will be keen to look at that. are creating in the Bill is this: under clause 2, only exceptionally are proceedings defined in clause 1 to be 5.45 pm brought, or continued, against a person. However, as We have heard in this debate about cross-party the Red Cross has made clear, amendments and concern. We hear a growing chorus of “only in exceptional circumstances will the Prosecutor of the ICC criticism, especially from groups or figures with long conclude that an investigation or a prosecution may not serve the military or legal experience. It is not too late for Ministers interests of justice.” to think again about the best way both to protect In other words, in the International Criminal Court, it service personnel from vexatious litigation and to ensure is exceptional not to pursue a case; we are making it that those who commit serious crimes on operations exceptional to pursue a case. That is the contradiction, abroad are properly prosecuted and punished. Labour the risk, and the jeopardy for our troops serving overseas Members will continue to work to help forge a consensus in future. on the changes needed to make this Bill into legislation If we adhere to the highest standards of legal military that serves the best interests of British troops, British conduct, we can hold other countries to account when justice and British military standing in the world. their forces fall short—a point made clearly by my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis). Johnny Mercer: I appreciate all the contributions If we do otherwise, it compromises our country’s proud made this afternoon, some of which were very thoughtful. reputation for upholding the rules-based international I know that Members get upset when I think that order that Britain has helped to construct since the days they are disingenuous, but the amount of misinformation of Churchill and Attlee. that has come over today is quite extraordinary. The On civil claims, new clause 5 would amend part 2 of right hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John the Bill so that claims by troops or former service Healey) just said that the Royal British Legion has said personnel were not blocked in all circumstances, as they that this directly breaks— 257 Overseas Operations (Service 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Overseas Operations (Service 258 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill Mr Kevan Jones: On a point of order, Madam Deputy of wrongdoing on overseas operations are raised and Speaker. The Minister has just accused my right investigated. The right hon. Member for Wentworth hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth and Dearne and Dearne raises time and again the issue of the (John Healey) of being disingenuous. Is that actually investigations, but he knows that they are for the parliamentary? forthcoming armed forces Bill and will be addressed there. That is why it might be unintentionally disingenuous Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): I to suggest that nothing is being done, Madam Deputy am sure the Minister meant “unintentionally disingenuous”. Speaker. A number of amendments are proposed to clause 6 Johnny Mercer: It is quite extraordinary the way that and schedule 1. A number seek to exclude torture individuals carry on in this House. That is precisely why offences from the presumption, and we know what this I became a Member of Parliament—because quite frankly is; I should make it clear again that there is no requirement the military were sick and tired of some of the warm in customary international law for a state to prosecute a words that come out of this place when actually the war crime or other breach of the Geneva convention in actions are what matters. all circumstances where it has sufficient evidence of the offence, irrespective of this clause. We believe that the I thank the Chairs of the Public Bill Committee and statutory presumption, which still allows the prosecutor my fellow members of the Committee for their scrutiny to continue to take decisions to prosecute, is consistent of the Bill. As I said in Committee, we may not always with our international obligations. agree, and that is to be expected, but I have listened to the views put forward, including those of Members who Similarly, amendments 1 to 10 seek to ensure that the have spoken today. I hope that I will be able to address a offences in section 134 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 number of the points raised and set out the Government’s in relation to torture, and the relevant sections of the position on the amendments chosen for debate. International Criminal Court Act 2001 in relation to offences of torture, genocide, crimes against humanity and On part 1 of the Bill, as I have said before, I fully war crimes, should be excluded offences in schedule 1. I recognise the importance of striking an appropriate am very much aware that many people have misinterpreted balance between victims’ rights and access to justice. the decision to exclude only sexual offences from the This has meant seeking to have a balance in the Bill. On presumption against prosecution, including by suggesting the one hand, we are introducing protective measures that it somehow undermines the UK’s continuing that set a high threshold for a prosecutor to determine commitment to upholding international human rights that a case should be prosecuted and ensuring that the law and humanitarian law, including the UN convention adverse impacts of overseas operations would be given against torture. As Opposition Members well know, particular weight in favour of the service personnel or that is completely untrue. The UK does not participate veterans. On the other hand, we must ensure that in in, solicit, encourage or condone the use of torture for circumstances where our service personnel fall short of any purposes, and we remain committed to maintaining the high standards of personal behaviour and conduct our leading role in the promotion and protection of that is required, they can still be held to account. That is human rights, democracy and the rule of law. one of the reasons why we have not proposed an amnesty or a statute of limitations for service personnel and veterans as part of these measures—a claim again produced Stewart Malcolm McDonald: Will the Minister give by Labour Members today.That is not true. [Interruption.] way on that point? The right hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne can chunter from a sedentary position about what is in the Johnny Mercer: I think I have put up with enough Bill, but all that has been mentioned all afternoon is this afternoon; I will not take any interventions. what is not in the Bill. It is literally a waste of everybody’s The Bill does not decriminalise torture or war crimes, time. I see that Momentum has said this afternoon that and it will not encourage or allow our service personnel we have forced Labour Front Benchers to vote against to act with impunity. We will continue to take other it. I was unaware that Momentum had any seats in the offences such as war crimes and torture extremely seriously. House of Commons, but clearly Labour Members are The severity of the crime and the circumstances in unable to think for themselves. However, that is a matter which it was committed will always be factored into the for them. We have also ensured that the measures are prosecutor’s considerations. I have previously explained compliant with international law. the Government’s decision to exclude only sexual offences I recognise that alleged misconduct by service personnel from the Bill, and I am not going to say it again. is dealt with most effectively if individuals are investigated I wish to discuss new clause 5, which seeks to amend and, where appropriate, subject to disciplinary or criminal part 2 of the Bill so that it explicitly excludes actions proceedings at the time of the conduct. Nobody should brought against the Crown by current or former service underestimate the often inordinate difficulty in delivering personnel. None of the measures in part 2 of the Bill timely justice in relation to investigations of alleged will prevent service personnel, veterans or their families historical offences. As we have heard in many oral from bringing claims against the MOD in connection evidence sessions, this can leave our service personnel with overseas operations within a reasonable timeframe, with stress and mental strain for many years afterwards. which most have done historically.Toexclude,as Opposition There is a danger that if we fail to recognise that all the Members would want to me to, claims from service elements of the armed forces have come a long way personnel and veterans from part 2 of the Bill would from the beginning of the Iraq conflict, it looks like we amount to a difference in treatment between categories are not continuing to learn and adjust. That is not true, of claimants, including the civilian personnel who deploy which is why the Secretary of State has announced, in alongside service personnel on overseas operations. That parallel with this Bill, a judge-led review of how allegations would not be justifiable and it would likely be discriminatory. 259 Overseas Operations (Service 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Overseas Operations (Service 260 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill [Johnny Mercer] Look, at some point, hon. Members have to make a decision as to whether they are just going to speak very Therefore, in the interests of fairness to all claimants, warm words, feel very strongly and think that our claims from service personnel and veterans are not armed forces are the best of us, or actually do something excluded. I am confident that these measures do not that will change their lives, improve their lives, protect break the armed forces covenant. The new factors and them from this new pernicious nature of lawfare and limitation longstops apply to all claims in connection vote with the Government to get things done. I commend with overseas operations, and I have dealt with that the Bill to the House. point a number of times before. Mr Kevan Jones: My right hon. Friend the Member I wish to say to colleagues that this House has a poor for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) and others record on looking after those who serve. There comes a have tried to improve this Bill. The Minister is just not tangible moment, which the public can see and feel, listening. He throws cheap shots. I am sorry, but I stand when Members must cross the divide. In my experience, up for members of our armed forces and veterans. I do Members never tire in this place of warm words towards not need to get paid £85,000 a year, as he did as a Back our armed forces or sombre reflections, particularly at Bencher, to support veterans. I do it for nothing because this special time of year, as we run into remembrance I believe in them, so do not give us lectures about people weekend, but, as I said, there comes a moment, which who take money to support veterans for their own the public can see and feel, when we must do better and pockets, rather than just supporting our veterans. match our words with action. This is that moment—one our predecessors have consistently failed, time and again, The problem is that the Bill has gone through Committee to seize. I am proud that this Government will move and today’s debate and it is not going to be amended. from warm words to actually dealing with how we look The Minister is not listening at all. He said that actions after those who have served. Gone are the days when are what matter. Yes, they do, because what we are this was an afterthought, and I pay tribute to this Prime going to have is a Bill passed here tonight that does not Minister for his resolution to allow me to change this. address the main issue, which is investigations, because the Minister will just not accept it. Part 2 means that There are a lot of amendments that I am unable to veterans and members of the armed forces will have speak to, but what I will say is that I have listened to all fewer rights than anybody in this House—fewer rights the contributions. I know that there is this kind of than prisoners—and he cannot say, in the lead-up to feeling that I do not listen and that I am not going to Remembrance Sunday, that taking fundamental rights change the Bill. The reality is that I did not write the away from members of our armed forces is right. But amendments— that is exactly what he is—

Stewart Malcolm McDonald: Will the Minister give Johnny Mercer: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? way?

Johnny Mercer: No, I am not giving way—I have Mr Jones: No, I am not going to take an intervention. suffered enough. The House has suffered enough at the I am sorry; the Minister, both in Committee and tonight, hands of the hon. Gentleman. I have listened to all the is one thing if one thing only—consistent. He sits there, points about the amendments, but I did not ,write them. chunters from a sedentary position, never takes I wrote the Bill and the Bill as it stands deals with the interventions, reads his civil service brief and will just problem that we are trying to fix, and hon. Members not listen to anyone because he thinks he is right. I am fully know that. Imagine my surprise—the Al-Sweady sorry; he is wrong on this. inquiry has been picked out by Opposition Members, but they would not believe who was the Minister at the I will not press my new clauses and amendments to a time of the Al-Sweady inquiry: the right hon. Member vote, but I will end with this point. The Bill is flawed. It for North Durham (Mr Jones). If Members are really could have been improved in Committee and it could be going to contribute honestly with a debate that they improved here tonight. It will not be, because the Minister know the answers to, it has to be done with the sort of stubbornly refuses to accept it. He will then use the standards, values and ethos that we expect our people parliamentary majority in this House to ram it through. to adhere to. This Bill will do nothing to protect veterans. They will still be investigated. They will still be prosecuted, possibly Mr Kevan Jones: Actually, it was the Minister of before the International Criminal Court, and their basic State who was dealing with the Al-Sweady inquiry. As I rights, which we should all have under section 33 of the told the Minister in Committee, it was not the Labour Limitation Act, will be taken away from them. That is party that set up the IHAT committee or Northmoor—it shameful. was his Government—so he should not start lecturing people when Members on the Government Benches at I beg to ask leave to withdraw the clause. the time were calling for investigations. Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

Johnny Mercer: I appreciate the intervention, but the 6 pm fact is that when the Al-Sweady inquiry took place, the right hon. Gentleman was a Minister in the Department. Proceedingsinterrupted(ProgrammeOrder,23September). The claimants in the Al-Sweady case were supported by The Deputy Speaker put forthwith the Questions necessary Leigh Day. Leigh Day gave £18,000 to the Labour party. for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that This stuff is quite transparent ,and it is all on the record. time (Standing Order No. 83E). 261 Overseas Operations (Service 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Overseas Operations (Service 262 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill New Clause 5 Grady, Patrick McGovern, Alison Grant, Peter McKinnell, Catherine RESTRICTIONS ON TIME LIMITS: Gray, Neil McLaughlin, Anne ACTIONS BROUGHT AGAINST THE Green, Kate McMahon, Jim CROWN BY SERVICE PERSONNEL Greenwood, Lilian McMorrin, Anna Greenwood, Margaret Mearns, Ian Nothing in this Part applies to any action brought against the Griffith, Nia Miliband, rh Edward Crown by a person who is a member or former member of the Gwynne, Andrew Mishra, Navendu regular or reserve forces, or of a British overseas territory force Haigh, Louise Monaghan, Carol to whom section 369(2) of the Armed Forces Act 2006 (persons Hamilton, Fabian Moran, Layla subject to service law) applies.—(John Healey.) Hanna, Claire Morden, Jessica This new clause amends Part 2 of the Bill so that it explicitly Hanvey, Neale Morgan, Stephen excludes actions brought against the Crown by serving or former Hardy, Emma Morris, Anne Marie service personnel from the limitations on courts’ discretion that the Harman, rh Ms Harriet Morris, Grahame Part imposes in respect of actions relating to overseas operations. Harris, Carolyn Murray, Ian Brought up. Hayes, Helen Murray, James Question put, That the clause be added to the Bill. Healey, rh John Nandy, Lisa Hendrick, Sir Mark Newlands, Gavin The House divided: Ayes 266, Noes 336. Hendry, Drew Nichols, Charlotte Division No. 156] [6 pm Hill, Mike Nicolson, John Hillier, Meg Norris, Alex AYES Hobhouse, Wera Olney, Sarah Hodge, rh Dame Margaret Onwurah, Chi Abbott, rh Ms Diane Crawley, Angela Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Oppong-Asare, Abena Abrahams, Debbie Creasy, Stella Hollern, Kate Osamor, Kate Ali, Rushanara Cruddas, Jon Hopkins, Rachel Osborne, Kate Ali, Tahir Cryer, John Hosie, Stewart Oswald, Kirsten Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Cummins, Judith Howarth, rh Sir George Owatemi, Taiwo Amesbury, Mike Cunningham, Alex Huq, Dr Rupa Owen, Sarah Anderson, Fleur Daby, Janet Hussain, Imran Paisley, Ian Antoniazzi, Tonia Davey, rh Ed Jardine, Christine Peacock, Stephanie Bardell, Hannah David, Wayne Jarvis, Dan Pennycook, Matthew Barker, Paula Davies, Geraint Johnson, Dame Diana Perkins, Mr Toby Beckett, rh Margaret Davies-Jones, Alex Johnson, Kim Phillips, Jess Begum, Apsana Davis, rh Mr David Jones, Darren Phillipson, Bridget Betts, Mr Clive Day, Martyn Jones, Gerald Pollard, Luke Black, Mhairi De Cordova, Marsha Jones, rh Mr Kevan Powell, Lucy Blackford, rh Ian Debbonaire, Thangam Jones, Ruth Qureshi, Yasmin Blackman, Kirsty Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Jones, Sarah Rayner, Angela Blake, Olivia Docherty-Hughes, Martin Kane, Mike Reed, Steve Bonnar, Steven Dodds, Anneliese Keeley, Barbara Rees, Christina Brabin, Tracy Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. Khan, Afzal Reeves, Ellie Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Doogan, Dave Kinnock, Stephen Reeves, Rachel Brennan, Kevin Dorans, Allan Kyle, Peter Reynolds, Jonathan Brock, Deidre Doughty, Stephen Lake, Ben Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Brown, Alan Dowd, Peter Lammy, rh Mr David Rimmer, Ms Marie Brown, Ms Lyn Dromey, Jack Lavery, Ian Robinson, Gavin Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Duffield, Rosie Law, Chris Rodda, Matt Bryant, Chris Eagle, Ms Angela Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Buck, Ms Karen Eagle, Maria Lewis, Clive Saville Roberts, rh Liz Burgon, Richard Eastwood, Colum Linden, David Shannon, Jim Butler, Dawn Edwards, Jonathan Lloyd, Tony Sharma, Mr Virendra Byrne, Ian Efford, Clive Lockhart, Carla Sheerman, Mr Barry Byrne, rh Liam Elliott, Julie Long Bailey, Rebecca Sheppard, Tommy Cadbury, Ruth Elmore, Chris Lucas, Caroline Siddiq, Tulip Callaghan, Amy Eshalomi, Florence Lynch, Holly Slaughter, Andy Cameron, Dr Lisa Esterson, Bill MacAskill, Kenny Smith, Alyn Campbell, rh Sir Alan Evans, Chris MacNeil, Angus Brendan Smith, Cat Campbell, Mr Gregory Farron, Tim Madders, Justin Smith, Jeff Carden, Dan Farry, Stephen Mahmood, Mr Khalid Smith, Nick Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Fellows, Marion Malhotra, Seema Smyth, Karin Chamberlain, Wendy Ferrier, Margaret Maskell, Rachael Sobel, Alex Champion, Sarah Flynn, Stephen Matheson, Christian Spellar, rh John Chapman, Douglas Fovargue, Yvonne Mc Nally, John Starmer, rh Keir Cherry, Joanna Foxcroft, Vicky McCarthy, Kerry Stephens, Chris Clark, Feryal Foy, Mary Kelly McDonagh, Siobhain Stevens, Jo Cooper, Daisy Furniss, Gill McDonald, Andy Stone, Jamie Cooper, Rosie Gardiner, Barry McDonald, Stewart Malcolm Streeting, Wes Cooper, rh Yvette Gibson, Patricia McDonald, Stuart C. Sultana, Zarah Corbyn, rh Jeremy Gill, Preet Kaur McDonnell, rh John Tami, rh Mark Cowan, Ronnie Girvan, Paul McFadden, rh Mr Pat Tarry, Sam Coyle, Neil Glindon, Mary McGinn, Conor Thewliss, Alison 263 Overseas Operations (Service 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Overseas Operations (Service 264 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill Thomas-Symonds, Nick Whitford, Dr Philippa Fox, rh Dr Liam Knight, Julian Thompson, Owen Whitley, Mick Francois, rh Mr Mark Kruger, Danny Thomson, Richard Whittome, Nadia Frazer, Lucy Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Thornberry, rh Emily Williams, Hywel Freer, Mike Lamont, John Timms, rh Stephen Wilson, Munira Fuller, Richard Largan, Robert Trickett, Jon Wilson, rh Sammy Fysh, Mr Marcus Latham, Mrs Pauline Turner, Karl Winter, Beth Gale, rh Sir Roger Leadsom, rh Andrea Twigg, Derek Wishart, Pete Garnier, Mark Leigh, rh Sir Edward Twist, Liz Yasin, Mohammad Ghani, Ms Nusrat Levy, Ian Vaz, rh Valerie Zeichner, Daniel Gibson, Peter Lewer, Andrew West, Catherine Tellers for the Ayes: Gideon, Jo Lewis, rh Brandon Western, Matt Colleen Fletcher and Gillan, rh Dame Cheryl Lewis, rh Dr Julian Whitehead, Dr Alan Bambos Charalambous Glen, John Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Loder, Chris Graham, Richard Logan, Mark NOES Grant, Mrs Helen Longhi, Marco Adams, Nigel Caulfield, Maria Gray, James Lopez, Julia Afolami, Bim Chalk, Alex Grayling, rh Chris Lopresti, Jack Afriyie, Adam Chishti, Rehman Green, Chris Lord, Mr Jonathan Ahmad Khan, Imran Churchill, Jo Green, rh Damian Loughton, Tim Aiken, Nickie Clarke, Mr Simon Griffith, Andrew Mackinlay, Craig Aldous, Peter Clarke, Theo Griffiths, Kate Mackrory, Cherilyn Allan, Lucy Clarke-Smith, Brendan Grundy, James Maclean, Rachel Amess, Sir David Clarkson, Chris Gullis, Jonathan Mak, Alan Anderson, Lee Cleverly, rh James Halfon, rh Robert Malthouse, Kit Anderson, Stuart Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Hall, Luke Mangnall, Anthony Andrew, Stuart Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Hammond, Stephen Mann, Scott Ansell, Caroline Colburn, Elliot Hands, rh Greg Marson, Julie Argar, Edward Collins, Damian Harper, rh Mr Mark May, rh Mrs Theresa Atherton, Sarah Costa, Alberto Harris, Rebecca Mayhew, Jerome Atkins, Victoria Courts, Robert Harrison, Trudy Maynard, Paul Bacon, Gareth Coutinho, Claire Hart, Sally-Ann McCartney, Jason Bacon, Mr Richard Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Hart, rh Simon McCartney, Karl Badenoch, Kemi Crabb, rh Stephen Hayes, rh Sir John McVey, rh Esther Bailey, Shaun Crosbie, Virginia Heald, rh Sir Oliver Menzies, Mark Baillie, Siobhan Crouch, Tracey Heaton-Harris, Chris Mercer, Johnny Baker, Duncan Daly, James Henderson, Gordon Merriman, Huw Baker, Mr Steve Davies, David T. C. Henry, Darren Metcalfe, Stephen Baldwin, Harriett Davies, Gareth Higginbotham, Antony Millar, Robin Baron, Mr John Davies, Dr James Hinds, rh Damian Miller, rh Mrs Maria Baynes, Simon Davies, Mims Hoare, Simon Milling, rh Amanda Bell, Aaron Davies, Philip Holden, Mr Richard Mills, Nigel Benton, Scott Davison, Dehenna Hollinrake, Kevin Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Beresford, Sir Paul Dinenage, Caroline Hollobone, Mr Philip Mohindra, Mr Gagan Berry, rh Jake Dines, Miss Sarah Holloway, Adam Moore, Damien Bhatti, Saqib Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Holmes, Paul Moore, Robbie Blackman, Bob Docherty, Leo Howell, John Mordaunt, rh Penny Blunt, Crispin Donelan, Michelle Howell, Paul Morris, David Bone, Mr Peter Dorries, Ms Nadine Huddleston, Nigel Morris, James Bottomley, Sir Peter Double, Steve Hudson, Dr Neil Morrissey, Joy Bowie, Andrew Dowden, rh Oliver Hughes, Eddie Morton, Wendy Bradley, Ben Doyle-Price, Jackie Hunt, Jane Mullan, Dr Kieran Bradley, rh Karen Drax, Richard Hunt, rh Jeremy Mumby-Croft, Holly Brady, Sir Graham Drummond, Mrs Flick Hunt, Tom Murray, Mrs Sheryll Braverman, rh Suella Duddridge, James Jack, rh Mr Alister Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Brereton, Jack Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Javid, rh Sajid Neill, Sir Robert Bridgen, Andrew Dunne, rh Philip Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Nici, Lia Brine, Steve Eastwood, Mark Jenkin, Sir Bernard Nokes, rh Caroline Bristow, Paul Edwards, Ruth Jenkinson, Mark Norman, rh Jesse Britcliffe, Sara Ellis, rh Michael Jenkyns, Andrea O’Brien, Neil Brokenshire, rh James Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Johnson, Dr Caroline Offord, Dr Matthew Browne, Anthony Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Johnson, Gareth Parish, Neil Bruce, Fiona Evans, Dr Luke Johnston, David Paterson, rh Mr Owen Buchan, Felicity Evennett, rh Sir David Jones, Andrew Pawsey, Mark Buckland, rh Robert Everitt, Ben Jones, rh Mr David Penning, rh Sir Mike Burns, rh Conor Fabricant, Michael Jones, Fay Penrose, John Butler, Rob Fell, Simon Jones, Mr Marcus Philp, Chris Cairns, rh Alun Fletcher, Katherine Jupp, Simon Pincher, rh Christopher Carter, Andy Fletcher, Mark Kawczynski, Daniel Poulter, Dr Dan Cartlidge, James Fletcher, Nick Kearns, Alicia Pow, Rebecca Cash, Sir William Ford, Vicky Keegan, Gillian Prentis, Victoria Cates, Miriam Foster, Kevin Knight, rh Sir Greg Pursglove, Tom 265 Overseas Operations (Service 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Overseas Operations (Service 266 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill Quin, Jeremy Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Anderson, Fleur Efford, Clive Quince, Will Syms, Sir Robert Antoniazzi, Tonia Elliott, Julie Randall, Tom Thomas, Derek Bardell, Hannah Elmore, Chris Redwood, rh John Timpson, Edward Barker, Paula Eshalomi, Florence Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Tolhurst, Kelly Beckett, rh Margaret Esterson, Bill Richards, Nicola Tomlinson, Justin Begum, Apsana Evans, Chris Richardson, Angela Tomlinson, Michael Benn, rh Hilary Farron, Tim Roberts, Rob Tracey, Craig Betts, Mr Clive Farry, Stephen Robertson, Mr Laurence Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie Black, Mhairi Fellows, Marion Robinson, Mary Trott, Laura Blackford, rh Ian Ferrier, Margaret Rosindell, Andrew Truss, rh Elizabeth Blackman, Kirsty Fletcher, Colleen Ross, Douglas Tugendhat, Tom Blake, Olivia Flynn, Stephen Rowley, Lee Vara, Mr Shailesh Bonnar, Steven Fovargue, Yvonne Russell, Dean Vickers, Martin Brabin, Tracy Foxcroft, Vicky Rutley, David Vickers, Matt Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Foy, Mary Kelly Saxby, Selaine Villiers, rh Theresa Brennan, Kevin Furniss, Gill Scully, Paul Wakeford, Christian Brock, Deidre Gardiner, Barry Seely, Bob Walker, Sir Charles Brown, Alan Gibson, Patricia Selous, Andrew Walker, Mr Robin Brown, Ms Lyn Gill, Preet Kaur Shapps, rh Grant Wallace, rh Mr Ben Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Glindon, Mary Shelbrooke, rh Alec Wallis, Dr Jamie Bryant, Chris Grady, Patrick Simmonds, David Warburton, David Buck, Ms Karen Grant, Peter Skidmore, rh Chris Warman, Matt Burgon, Richard Green, Kate Smith, Chloe Watling, Giles Butler, Dawn Greenwood, Lilian Smith, Greg Webb, Suzanne Byrne, Ian Greenwood, Margaret Smith, Henry Whately, Helen Byrne, rh Liam Griffith, Nia Smith, rh Julian Wheeler, Mrs Heather Cadbury, Ruth Gwynne, Andrew Smith, Royston Whittaker, Craig Callaghan, Amy Haigh, Louise Solloway, Amanda Whittingdale, rh Mr John Cameron, Dr Lisa Hamilton, Fabian Spencer, Dr Ben Wiggin, Bill Campbell, rh Sir Alan Hanna, Claire Spencer, rh Mark Wild, James Carden, Dan Hanvey, Neale Stafford, Alexander Williams, Craig Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hardy, Emma Stephenson, Andrew Williamson, rh Gavin Chamberlain, Wendy Harman, rh Ms Harriet Stevenson, Jane Wood, Mike Champion, Sarah Harris, Carolyn Stevenson, John Wragg, Mr William Chapman, Douglas Hayes, Helen Stewart, Bob Wright, rh Jeremy Charalambous, Bambos Healey, rh John Stewart, Iain Cherry, Joanna Hendrick, Sir Mark Young, Jacob Streeter, Sir Gary Clark, Feryal Hendry, Drew Zahawi, Nadhim Stride, rh Mel Cooper, Daisy Hill, Mike Stuart, Graham Tellers for the Noes: Cooper, Rosie Hillier, Meg Sturdy, Julian Maggie Throup and Cooper, rh Yvette Hobhouse, Wera Sunderland, James David Duguid Corbyn, rh Jeremy Hodge, rh Dame Margaret Cowan, Ronnie Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Question accordingly negatived. Coyle, Neil Hollern, Kate Crawley, Angela Hopkins, Rachel The list of Members currently certified as eligible for a Creasy, Stella Hosie, Stewart proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their Cruddas, Jon Howarth, rh Sir George proxy, is published at the end of today’s debates. Cryer, John Huq, Dr Rupa Cummins, Judith Hussain, Imran Cunningham, Alex Jardine, Christine Clause 6 Daby, Janet Jarvis, Dan Davey, rh Ed Johnson, Dame Diana “RELEVANT OFFENCE” David, Wayne Johnson, Kim Amendment proposed: 32, page 4, line 13, at end insert— Davies, Geraint Jones, Darren Davies-Jones, Alex Jones, Gerald ‘(3A) A service offence is not a “relevant offence” if it is an Davis, rh Mr David Jones, rh Mr Kevan offence whose prosecution is required under the United Day, Martyn Jones, Ruth Kingdom’s international treaty obligations.’.—(Stewart Malcolm De Cordova, Marsha Jones, Sarah McDonald.) Debbonaire, Thangam Kane, Mike This amendment would exclude the prosecution of serious Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Keeley, Barbara international crimes (such as torture, genocide, crimes against Docherty-Hughes, Martin Khan, Afzal humanity, and certain war crimes) from the limitations otherwise Dodds, Anneliese Kinnock, Stephen imposed by the Bill. Doogan, Dave Kyle, Peter Question put, That the amendment be made. Dorans, Allan Lake, Ben The House divided: Ayes 262, Noes 335. Doughty, Stephen Lammy, rh Mr David Dowd, Peter Lavery, Ian Division No. 157] [6.17 pm Dromey, Jack Law, Chris Duffield, Rosie Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma AYES Eagle, Ms Angela Linden, David Abbott, rh Ms Diane Ali, Tahir Eagle, Maria Lloyd, Tony Abrahams, Debbie Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Eastwood, Colum Long Bailey, Rebecca Ali, Rushanara Amesbury, Mike Edwards, Jonathan Lucas, Caroline 267 Overseas Operations (Service 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Overseas Operations (Service 268 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill Lynch, Holly Reeves, Ellie Benton, Scott Eastwood, Mark MacAskill, Kenny Reeves, Rachel Beresford, Sir Paul Edwards, Ruth MacNeil, Angus Brendan Reynolds, Jonathan Berry, rh Jake Ellis, rh Michael Madders, Justin Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Bhatti, Saqib Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Mahmood, Mr Khalid Rimmer, Ms Marie Blackman, Bob Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Malhotra, Seema Rodda, Matt Blunt, Crispin Evans, Dr Luke Maskell, Rachael Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Bone, Mr Peter Evennett, rh Sir David Matheson, Christian Saville Roberts, rh Liz Bottomley, Sir Peter Everitt, Ben Mc Nally, John Sharma, Mr Virendra Bowie, Andrew Fabricant, Michael McCabe, Steve Sheerman, Mr Barry Bradley, Ben Fell, Simon McCarthy, Kerry Sheppard, Tommy Bradley, rh Karen Fletcher, Katherine McDonald, Andy Siddiq, Tulip Brady, Sir Graham Fletcher, Mark McDonald, Stewart Malcolm Slaughter, Andy Braverman, rh Suella Fletcher, Nick McDonald, Stuart C. Smith, Alyn Brereton, Jack Ford, Vicky McDonnell, rh John Smith, Cat Bridgen, Andrew Foster, Kevin McFadden, rh Mr Pat Smith, Jeff Brine, Steve Fox, rh Dr Liam McGinn, Conor Smith, Nick Bristow, Paul Francois, rh Mr Mark McGovern, Alison Smyth, Karin Britcliffe, Sara Frazer, Lucy McKinnell, Catherine Sobel, Alex Brokenshire, rh James Freer, Mike McLaughlin, Anne Spellar, rh John Browne, Anthony Fuller, Richard McMahon, Jim Starmer, rh Keir Bruce, Fiona Fysh, Mr Marcus McMorrin, Anna Stephens, Chris Buchan, Felicity Gale, rh Sir Roger Mearns, Ian Stevens, Jo Buckland, rh Robert Garnier, Mark Miliband, rh Edward Stone, Jamie Burghart, Alex Ghani, Ms Nusrat Mishra, Navendu Streeting, Wes Burns, rh Conor Gibson, Peter Monaghan, Carol Sultana, Zarah Butler, Rob Gideon, Jo Moran, Layla Tami, rh Mark Cairns, rh Alun Gillan, rh Dame Cheryl Morden, Jessica Tarry, Sam Carter, Andy Glen, John Morgan, Stephen Thewliss, Alison Cartlidge, James Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Morris, Grahame Cash, Sir William Graham, Richard Thomas-Symonds, Nick Murray, Ian Cates, Miriam Grant, Mrs Helen Thomson, Richard Murray, James Caulfield, Maria Grayling, rh Chris Thornberry, rh Emily Nandy, Lisa Chalk, Alex Green, Chris Timms, rh Stephen Newlands, Gavin Chishti, Rehman Green, rh Damian Nichols, Charlotte Trickett, Jon Churchill, Jo Griffith, Andrew Nicolson, John Turner, Karl Clarke, Mr Simon Griffiths, Kate Norris, Alex Twigg, Derek Clarke, Theo Grundy, James Olney, Sarah Twist, Liz Clarke-Smith, Brendan Gullis, Jonathan Onwurah, Chi Vaz, rh Valerie Clarkson, Chris Halfon, rh Robert Oppong-Asare, Abena Webbe, Claudia Cleverly, rh James Hall, Luke Osamor, Kate West, Catherine Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Hammond, Stephen Osborne, Kate Western, Matt Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Hands, rh Greg Oswald, Kirsten Whitehead, Dr Alan Colburn, Elliot Harper, rh Mr Mark Owatemi, Taiwo Whitford, Dr Philippa Collins, Damian Harris, Rebecca Owen, Sarah Whitley, Mick Costa, Alberto Harrison, Trudy Peacock, Stephanie Whittome, Nadia Courts, Robert Hart, Sally-Ann Pennycook, Matthew Williams, Hywel Coutinho, Claire Hart, rh Simon Perkins, Mr Toby Wilson, Munira Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Hayes, rh Sir John Phillips, Jess Winter, Beth Crabb, rh Stephen Heald, rh Sir Oliver Phillipson, Bridget Wishart, Pete Crosbie, Virginia Heaton-Harris, Chris Pollard, Luke Crouch, Tracey Henderson, Gordon Yasin, Mohammad Powell, Lucy Daly, James Henry, Darren Zeichner, Daniel Qureshi, Yasmin Davies, David T. C. Higginbotham, Antony Rayner, Angela Tellers for the Ayes: Davies, Gareth Hinds, rh Damian Reed, Steve Owen Thompson and Davies, Dr James Hoare, Simon Rees, Christina Neil Gray Davies, Mims Holden, Mr Richard Davies, Philip Hollinrake, Kevin NOES Davison, Dehenna Hollobone, Mr Philip Dinenage, Caroline Holloway, Adam Adams, Nigel Atherton, Sarah Dines, Miss Sarah Holmes, Paul Afolami, Bim Atkins, Victoria Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Howell, John Afriyie, Adam Bacon, Gareth Docherty, Leo Howell, Paul Ahmad Khan, Imran Bacon, Mr Richard Donelan, Michelle Huddleston, Nigel Aiken, Nickie Badenoch, Kemi Dorries, Ms Nadine Hudson, Dr Neil Aldous, Peter Bailey, Shaun Double, Steve Hughes, Eddie Allan, Lucy Baillie, Siobhan Dowden, rh Oliver Hunt, Jane Amess, Sir David Baker, Duncan Doyle-Price, Jackie Hunt, rh Jeremy Anderson, Lee Baker, Mr Steve Drax, Richard Hunt, Tom Anderson, Stuart Baldwin, Harriett Drummond, Mrs Flick Jack, rh Mr Alister Andrew, Stuart Baron, Mr John Duddridge, James Javid, rh Sajid Ansell, Caroline Baynes, Simon Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Argar, Edward Bell, Aaron Dunne, rh Philip Jenkin, Sir Bernard 269 Overseas Operations (Service 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Overseas Operations (Service 270 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill Jenkinson, Mark Nokes, rh Caroline Villiers, rh Theresa Whittingdale, rh Mr John Jenkyns, Andrea Norman, rh Jesse Wakeford, Christian Wiggin, Bill Johnson, Dr Caroline O’Brien, Neil Walker, Sir Charles Wild, James Johnson, Gareth Offord, Dr Matthew Walker, Mr Robin Williams, Craig Johnston, David Parish, Neil Wallace, rh Mr Ben Williamson, rh Gavin Jones, Andrew Paterson, rh Mr Owen Wallis, Dr Jamie Wood, Mike Jones, rh Mr David Pawsey, Mark Warburton, David Wragg, Mr William Jones, Fay Penning, rh Sir Mike Warman, Matt Wright, rh Jeremy Jones, Mr Marcus Penrose, John Watling, Giles Young, Jacob Jupp, Simon Philp, Chris Webb, Suzanne Zahawi, Nadhim Kawczynski, Daniel Pincher, rh Christopher Whately, Helen Tellers for the Noes: Kearns, Alicia Poulter, Dr Dan Wheeler, Mrs Heather Maggie Throup and Keegan, Gillian Pow, Rebecca Whittaker, Craig David Duguid Knight, rh Sir Greg Prentis, Victoria Knight, Julian Pursglove, Tom Kruger, Danny Quin, Jeremy Question accordingly negatived. Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Quince, Will The list of Members currently certified as eligible for a Lamont, John Randall, Tom proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their Largan, Robert Redwood, rh John proxy, is published at the end of today’s debates. Latham, Mrs Pauline Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Leadsom, rh Andrea Richards, Nicola Leigh, rh Sir Edward Richardson, Angela Schedule 1 Levy, Ian Roberts, Rob EXCLUDED OFFENCES FOR THE PURPOSES OF SECTION 6 Lewer, Andrew Robertson, Mr Laurence Lewis, rh Brandon Robinson, Mary Amendment proposed: 1, page 12, line 6, at end insert— Lewis, rh Dr Julian Rosindell, Andrew “(13A) An offence under section 134 of the Criminal Justice Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Ross, Douglas Act 1988 (torture).”—(Mr David Davis.) Loder, Chris Rowley, Lee This amendment is one of a series designed to ensure that the Bill’s Logan, Mark Russell, Dean “triple lock” provisions to block prosecutions would not apply to Longhi, Marco Rutley, David torture and related offences under UK law. This suite of Lopez, Julia Saxby, Selaine amendments would ensure that the existing offences of torture – Lopresti, Jack Scully, Paul contained in the 1988 Criminal Justice Act and in other parts of Lord, Mr Jonathan Seely, Bob UK law incorporating longstanding laws of war – would not be Loughton, Tim Selous, Andrew included within the Bill’s “triple lock” against prosecutions of UK Mackinlay, Craig Shapps, rh Grant soldiers. Mackrory, Cherilyn Shelbrooke, rh Alec Question put, That the amendment be made. Maclean, Rachel Simmonds, David Mak, Alan Skidmore, rh Chris The House divided: Ayes 269, Noes 334. Malthouse, Kit Smith, Chloe Division No. 158] [6.32 pm Mangnall, Anthony Smith, Greg Mann, Scott Smith, Henry AYES Marson, Julie Smith, rh Julian Abbott, rh Ms Diane Byrne, rh Liam May, rh Mrs Theresa Smith, Royston Abrahams, Debbie Cadbury, Ruth Mayhew, Jerome Solloway, Amanda Ali, Rushanara Callaghan, Amy Maynard, Paul Spencer, Dr Ben Ali, Tahir Cameron, Dr Lisa McCartney, Jason Spencer, rh Mark Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Campbell, rh Sir Alan McCartney, Karl Stafford, Alexander Amesbury, Mike Campbell, Mr Gregory McVey, rh Esther Stephenson, Andrew Anderson, Fleur Carden, Dan Menzies, Mark Stevenson, Jane Antoniazzi, Tonia Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Mercer, Johnny Stevenson, John Bardell, Hannah Chamberlain, Wendy Merriman, Huw Stewart, Bob Barker, Paula Champion, Sarah Metcalfe, Stephen Stewart, Iain Beckett, rh Margaret Chapman, Douglas Millar, Robin Streeter, Sir Gary Begum, Apsana Cherry, Joanna Miller, rh Mrs Maria Stride, rh Mel Benn, rh Hilary Clark, Feryal Milling, rh Amanda Stuart, Graham Betts, Mr Clive Cooper, Daisy Mills, Nigel Sturdy, Julian Black, Mhairi Cooper, Rosie Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Sunderland, James Blackford, rh Ian Cooper, rh Yvette Mohindra, Mr Gagan Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Blackman, Kirsty Corbyn, rh Jeremy Moore, Damien Syms, Sir Robert Blake, Olivia Cowan, Ronnie Moore, Robbie Thomas, Derek Bonnar, Steven Coyle, Neil Mordaunt, rh Penny Timpson, Edward Brabin, Tracy Crawley, Angela Morris, Anne Marie Tolhurst, Kelly Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Creasy, Stella Morris, David Tomlinson, Justin Brennan, Kevin Cruddas, Jon Morris, James Tomlinson, Michael Brock, Deidre Cryer, John Morrissey, Joy Tracey, Craig Brown, Alan Cummins, Judith Morton, Wendy Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie Brown, Ms Lyn Cunningham, Alex Mullan, Dr Kieran Trott, Laura Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Daby, Janet Mumby-Croft, Holly Truss, rh Elizabeth Bryant, Chris Davey, rh Ed Murray, Mrs Sheryll Tugendhat, Tom Buck, Ms Karen David, Wayne Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Vara, Mr Shailesh Burgon, Richard Davies, Geraint Neill, Sir Robert Vickers, Martin Butler, Dawn Davies-Jones, Alex Nici, Lia Vickers, Matt Byrne, Ian Davis, rh Mr David 271 Overseas Operations (Service 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Overseas Operations (Service 272 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill Day, Martyn Jones, Gerald Phillipson, Bridget Streeting, Wes De Cordova, Marsha Jones, rh Mr Kevan Pollard, Luke Sultana, Zarah Debbonaire, Thangam Jones, Ruth Powell, Lucy Tami, rh Mark Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Jones, Sarah Qureshi, Yasmin Tarry, Sam Docherty-Hughes, Martin Kane, Mike Rayner, Angela Thewliss, Alison Dodds, Anneliese Keeley, Barbara Rees, Christina Thomas-Symonds, Nick Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. Khan, Afzal Reeves, Ellie Thompson, Owen Doogan, Dave Kinnock, Stephen Reeves, Rachel Thomson, Richard Dorans, Allan Kyle, Peter Reynolds, Jonathan Thornberry, rh Emily Doughty, Stephen Lake, Ben Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Timms, rh Stephen Dowd, Peter Lammy, rh Mr David Rimmer, Ms Marie Trickett, Jon Dromey, Jack Lavery, Ian Robinson, Gavin Turner, Karl Duffield, Rosie Law, Chris Rodda, Matt Twigg, Derek Eagle, Ms Angela Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Twist, Liz Eagle, Maria Lewis, Clive Saville Roberts, rh Liz Vaz, rh Valerie Eastwood, Colum Linden, David Shannon, Jim Webbe, Claudia Edwards, Jonathan Lloyd, Tony Sharma, Mr Virendra West, Catherine Efford, Clive Lockhart, Carla Sheerman, Mr Barry Western, Matt Elliott, Julie Long Bailey, Rebecca Sheppard, Tommy Whitehead, Dr Alan Elmore, Chris Lucas, Caroline Siddiq, Tulip Whitford, Dr Philippa Eshalomi, Florence Lynch, Holly Slaughter, Andy Whitley, Mick Esterson, Bill MacAskill, Kenny Smith, Alyn Whittome, Nadia Evans, Chris MacNeil, Angus Brendan Smith, Cat Williams, Hywel Farron, Tim Madders, Justin Smith, Jeff Wilson, Munira Farry, Stephen Mahmood, Mr Khalid Smith, Nick Wilson, rh Sammy Fellows, Marion Malhotra, Seema Smyth, Karin Winter, Beth Ferrier, Margaret Maskell, Rachael Sobel, Alex Wishart, Pete Flynn, Stephen Matheson, Christian Spellar, rh John Yasin, Mohammad Fovargue, Yvonne Mc Nally, John Starmer, rh Keir Zeichner, Daniel Foxcroft, Vicky McCabe, Steve Stephens, Chris Tellers for the Ayes: Foy, Mary Kelly McCarthy, Kerry Stevens, Jo Colleen Fletcher and Furniss, Gill McDonagh, Siobhain Stone, Jamie Bambos Charalambous Gardiner, Barry McDonald, Andy Gibson, Patricia McDonald, Stewart Malcolm Gill, Preet Kaur McDonald, Stuart C. NOES Girvan, Paul McDonnell, rh John Adams, Nigel Bridgen, Andrew Glindon, Mary McFadden, rh Mr Pat Afolami, Bim Brine, Steve Grady, Patrick McGinn, Conor Afriyie, Adam Bristow, Paul Grant, Peter McGovern, Alison Ahmad Khan, Imran Britcliffe, Sara Gray, Neil McKinnell, Catherine Aldous, Peter Brokenshire, rh James Green, Kate McLaughlin, Anne Allan, Lucy Browne, Anthony Greenwood, Lilian McMahon, Jim Amess, Sir David Bruce, Fiona Greenwood, Margaret McMorrin, Anna Anderson, Lee Buchan, Felicity Griffith, Nia Mearns, Ian Anderson, Stuart Buckland, rh Robert Gwynne, Andrew Miliband, rh Edward Andrew, Stuart Burghart, Alex Haigh, Louise Mishra, Navendu Ansell, Caroline Burns, rh Conor Hamilton, Fabian Monaghan, Carol Argar, Edward Butler, Rob Hanna, Claire Moran, Layla Atherton, Sarah Cairns, rh Alun Hanvey, Neale Morden, Jessica Atkins, Victoria Carter, Andy Hardy, Emma Morgan, Stephen Bacon, Gareth Cartlidge, James Harman, rh Ms Harriet Morris, Anne Marie Bacon, Mr Richard Cash, Sir William Harris, Carolyn Morris, Grahame Badenoch, Kemi Cates, Miriam Hayes, Helen Murray, Ian Bailey, Shaun Caulfield, Maria Healey, rh John Murray, James Baillie, Siobhan Chalk, Alex Hendrick, Sir Mark Nandy, Lisa Baker, Duncan Chishti, Rehman Hendry, Drew Newlands, Gavin Baker, Mr Steve Churchill, Jo Hill, Mike Nichols, Charlotte Baldwin, Harriett Clarke, Mr Simon Hillier, Meg Nicolson, John Baron, Mr John Clarke, Theo Hobhouse, Wera Norris, Alex Baynes, Simon Clarke-Smith, Brendan Hodge, rh Dame Margaret Olney, Sarah Bell, Aaron Clarkson, Chris Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Onwurah, Chi Benton, Scott Cleverly, rh James Hollern, Kate Oppong-Asare, Abena Beresford, Sir Paul Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Hopkins, Rachel Osamor, Kate Berry, rh Jake Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Hosie, Stewart Osborne, Kate Bhatti, Saqib Colburn, Elliot Howarth, rh Sir George Oswald, Kirsten Blackman, Bob Collins, Damian Huq, Dr Rupa Owatemi, Taiwo Blunt, Crispin Costa, Alberto Hussain, Imran Owen, Sarah Bone, Mr Peter Courts, Robert Jardine, Christine Paisley, Ian Bowie, Andrew Coutinho, Claire Jarvis, Dan Peacock, Stephanie Bradley, Ben Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Johnson, Dame Diana Pennycook, Matthew Brady, Sir Graham Crabb, rh Stephen Johnson, Kim Perkins, Mr Toby Braverman, rh Suella Crosbie, Virginia Jones, Darren Phillips, Jess Brereton, Jack Crouch, Tracey 273 Overseas Operations (Service 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Overseas Operations (Service 274 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill Daly, James Henderson, Gordon Mercer, Johnny Smith, Greg Davies, David T. C. Henry, Darren Merriman, Huw Smith, Henry Davies, Gareth Higginbotham, Antony Metcalfe, Stephen Smith, rh Julian Davies, Dr James Hinds, rh Damian Millar, Robin Smith, Royston Davies, Mims Hoare, Simon Miller, rh Mrs Maria Solloway, Amanda Davies, Philip Holden, Mr Richard Milling, rh Amanda Spencer, Dr Ben Davison, Dehenna Hollinrake, Kevin Mills, Nigel Spencer, rh Mark Dinenage, Caroline Hollobone, Mr Philip Mohindra, Mr Gagan Stafford, Alexander Dines, Miss Sarah Holloway, Adam Moore, Damien Stephenson, Andrew Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Holmes, Paul Moore, Robbie Stevenson, Jane Docherty, Leo Howell, John Mordaunt, rh Penny Stevenson, John Donelan, Michelle Howell, Paul Morris, David Stewart, Bob Dorries, Ms Nadine Huddleston, Nigel Morris, James Stewart, Iain Double, Steve Hudson, Dr Neil Morrissey, Joy Streeter, Sir Gary Dowden, rh Oliver Hughes, Eddie Morton, Wendy Stride, rh Mel Doyle-Price, Jackie Hunt, Jane Mullan, Dr Kieran Stuart, Graham Drax, Richard Hunt, rh Jeremy Mumby-Croft, Holly Sturdy, Julian Drummond, Mrs Flick Hunt, Tom Murray, Mrs Sheryll Sunderland, James Duddridge, James Jack, rh Mr Alister Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Javid, rh Sajid Neill, Sir Robert Syms, Sir Robert Dunne, rh Philip Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Nici, Lia Thomas, Derek Eastwood, Mark Jenkin, Sir Bernard Nokes, rh Caroline Timpson, Edward Edwards, Ruth Jenkinson, Mark Norman, rh Jesse Tolhurst, Kelly Ellis, rh Michael Jenkyns, Andrea O’Brien, Neil Tomlinson, Justin Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Jenrick, rh Robert Offord, Dr Matthew Tomlinson, Michael Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Johnson, Dr Caroline Parish, Neil Tracey, Craig Eustice, rh George Johnson, Gareth Paterson, rh Mr Owen Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie Evans, Dr Luke Johnston, David Pawsey, Mark Trott, Laura Evennett, rh Sir David Jones, Andrew Penning, rh Sir Mike Truss, rh Elizabeth Everitt, Ben Jones, rh Mr David Penrose, John Tugendhat, Tom Fabricant, Michael Jones, Fay Philp, Chris Vara, Mr Shailesh Fell, Simon Jones, Mr Marcus Pincher, rh Christopher Vickers, Martin Fletcher, Katherine Jupp, Simon Poulter, Dr Dan Vickers, Matt Fletcher, Mark Kawczynski, Daniel Pow, Rebecca Villiers, rh Theresa Fletcher, Nick Kearns, Alicia Prentis, Victoria Wakeford, Christian Ford, Vicky Keegan, Gillian Pursglove, Tom Walker, Sir Charles Foster, Kevin Knight, rh Sir Greg Quin, Jeremy Walker, Mr Robin Fox, rh Dr Liam Knight, Julian Quince, Will Wallace, rh Mr Ben Francois, rh Mr Mark Kruger, Danny Randall, Tom Wallis, Dr Jamie Frazer, Lucy Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Redwood, rh John Warburton, David Freer, Mike Lamont, John Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Warman, Matt Fuller, Richard Largan, Robert Richards, Nicola Watling, Giles Fysh, Mr Marcus Latham, Mrs Pauline Richardson, Angela Webb, Suzanne Gale, rh Sir Roger Leadsom, rh Andrea Roberts, Rob Whately, Helen Garnier, Mark Leigh, rh Sir Edward Robertson, Mr Laurence Wheeler, Mrs Heather Ghani, Ms Nusrat Levy, Ian Robinson, Mary Whittaker, Craig Gibson, Peter Lewer, Andrew Rosindell, Andrew Whittingdale, rh Mr John Gideon, Jo Lewis, rh Brandon Ross, Douglas Wiggin, Bill Gillan, rh Dame Cheryl Lewis, rh Dr Julian Rowley, Lee Wild, James Glen, John Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Russell, Dean Williams, Craig Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Loder, Chris Rutley, David Williamson, rh Gavin Graham, Richard Logan, Mark Saxby, Selaine Wood, Mike Grant, Mrs Helen Longhi, Marco Scully, Paul Wragg, Mr William Grayling, rh Chris Lopez, Julia Seely, Bob Wright, rh Jeremy Green, Chris Lopresti, Jack Selous, Andrew Young, Jacob Green, rh Damian Lord, Mr Jonathan Shapps, rh Grant Zahawi, Nadhim Griffith, Andrew Loughton, Tim Shelbrooke, rh Alec Griffiths, Kate Mackinlay, Craig Simmonds, David Tellers for the Noes: Grundy, James Mackrory, Cherilyn Skidmore, rh Chris David Duguid and Gullis, Jonathan Maclean, Rachel Smith, Chloe Maggie Throup Halfon, rh Robert Mak, Alan Hall, Luke Malthouse, Kit Question accordingly negatived. Hammond, Stephen Mangnall, Anthony Hands, rh Greg Mann, Scott The list of Members currently certified as eligible for a Harper, rh Mr Mark Marson, Julie proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their Harris, Rebecca May, rh Mrs Theresa proxy, is published at the end of today’s debates. Harrison, Trudy Mayhew, Jerome Third Reading Hart, Sally-Ann Maynard, Paul Hart, rh Simon McCartney, Jason 6.47 pm Hayes, rh Sir John McCartney, Karl Heald, rh Sir Oliver McVey, rh Esther The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Ben Wallace): Heaton-Harris, Chris Menzies, Mark I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time. 275 Overseas Operations (Service 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Overseas Operations (Service 276 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill [Mr Ben Wallace] Mr Jones: Will the Minister give way?

First, I acknowledge the hard work that has got us to Mr Wallace: No, I will not. It is a bit rich for them to this point today and the thousands who responded to come here today and condemn the legislation. On the our public consultation and shaped the measures in the other hand, it is we who have commissioned— Bill, as well as the legal and legislative experts who have ensured that it provides measured and calibrated protections. Mr Jones rose— I thank Members from all parties who have participated Mr Wallace: The hon. Gentleman has had plenty to in debating the Bill’s merits, including in Committee. In say on the Bill; I will not give way. We do not have time particular, I thank my hon. Friend the Minister for to conclude these exchanges. On the other hand— Defence People and Veterans. His passion and [Interruption.] They can shout me down, but I will just determination to do the right thing by personnel and continue to use up Third Reading time, and I will then veterans is genuine and his commitment to his cause is listen to other speeches. I will not give way; I have made unwavering. Such central determination and duty should it clear to the hon. Gentleman. be a lesson to us all. The Bill is more than just a manifesto commitment; it Mr Jones: On a point of order, Madam Deputy is a necessary and overdue strengthening of the legal Speaker. The Minister has now added mind-reading to framework for dealing with the vexatious claims and his many skills. The Minister, who is actually a good repeated investigations that have arisen from recent friend of mine, has just made an accusation against me overseas military operations. There have been many and has not given me the right to reply to it. It was his inaccurate and wild accusations about the measures in Government, in 2010, who set up IHAT and Northmoor, the Bill. It does not prevent armed forces personnel not the Labour Government. from being prosecuted for crimes they may have committed. It does not remove prosecutors’ independence or ability Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): I to prosecute on the basis of any new or compelling do not want the point of order to become a subject of evidence of any crime at any time. It does not undermine debate, but obviously—[Interruption.] Thank you; I the UK’s adherence to the UN convention against can cope. Obviously, the Secretary of State has referred torture, its commitment to international law or its to the right hon. Gentleman, and he may feel it appropriate willingness to investigate and prosecute any alleged to give way. criminal offences. As such, it does not increase the likelihood of International Criminal Court prosecutions. Mr Wallace: It is a shame that the right hon. Gentleman used up more debating time by raising a bogus point of But do not take my word for it; take the words of the order, but nevertheless, in case Opposition Members former Attorney General for Northern Ireland, John think the way to conduct a Third Reading is to shout Larkin QC, probably the lawyer most experienced in people down, I will repeat that this legislation is one dealing with legacy military and security investigations very important part of the jigsaw. We must not forget, across the United Kingdom, who said in a paper published given the point raised by the Opposition about the this September that thoroughness of the investigations, that it was not under “the Bill does not create, or come close to creating, ‘de facto their stewardship that the investigative capability of our immunity’ for serving or former service personnel in respect of serious crimes.” armed forces was strengthened; it was not under their stewardship that the training for men and women about However,the Bill does raise the threshold for prosecution, detention of suspects was improved; it was not under thereby reducing the likelihood of investigations being Labour’s stewardship that article 2 compliance was met, repeatedly reopened without new and compelling evidence. often, on some of these investigations that allowed It does ensure recognition of the unique circumstances those lawyers to come back and repeat inquests, inquiries of overseas operations, including the constant threat to and investigations into our veterans. life and repeated exposure to traumatic events. It does take into consideration the public interest in criminal On the other hand, it is we, a Conservative Government, and civil cases’ being brought to a timely resolution, so who have commissioned and started implementing a that the courts can assess them while memories are service justice review programme, who appointed a fresh and evidence is more readily available. That is respected former judge to review and scrutinise the entirely in line with the principles of the ECHR. In investigative process, and who have brought legislation short, the measures do provide greater protection from to actually do something about it. the likes of Phil Shiner Solicitors, whose motivations The Government have listened to many of the were not justice but money. contributions throughout the Bill’s progress, but we It is the right thing to do to defend the men and have been unable to accept the amendments because women who risk their lives to protect us. It is for all they would have undermined rather than strengthened these reasons that the House should support the Bill’s the Bill. In the case of the Opposition, they are simply, Third Reading. But it is just one piece in the jigsaw to as it turned out, opposed to its aims, as Momentum has fix this issue. Let us not forget that the overwhelming boasted today. number of these incidents that triggered the pursuit of Despite all the warm words and sympathy, the Labour veterans happened under Labour’sstewardship of defence. leopard has not changed its spots. In this week of all They failed to keep training compliance with the ECHR. weeks, with Remembrance Sunday approaching, veterans They failed to equip personnel properly. They failed to up and down the country will note Labour’s opposition reform the service justice system to ensure that they and recognise what fair-weather friends they are. However, were ECHR-article 2-compliant, including the right hon. this Government have been determined and resolute in Member for North Durham (Mr Jones), who was a Minister acting to protect our armed forces, and that is why I in that Ministry at that time, so it is a bit rich— commend the Bill to the House. 277 Overseas Operations (Service 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Overseas Operations (Service 278 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill 6.38 pm does not protect the armed forces; it risks them being John Healey: We all want the same thing—Labour, dragged in front of the ICC. If he is happy with that as the Government, the public, the armed forces: we all his legacy, that is for him to resolve, but it is not want to protect British troops and British values, and something that we can support. For that reason, we will that should not be a matter of party politics. It is simply be against the Bill in the Lobby tonight. wrong to make debate on the Bill divisive, or to brand 6.58 pm those who challenge Ministers on the content of the Bill Mr Kevan Jones: May I too thank the Bill Committee as somehow standing against British troops. Clerks, who worked very hard? I congratulate the Minister This is a Bill to deal with long-running problems that for Defence People and Veterans on his excellent reading have arisen under successive Governments—Labour and of his briefs in Committee and today. Conservative—and the Minister in charge was right This is sad, because the Bill is fatally flawed. It will when he just said that we must do better, but we can do take rights away from veterans, which cannot be right, much better than this Bill as it stands. We want this to and it will lead to our international reputation being at be a Bill that protects British troops and their right to stake. It does not solve the problem, which is investigations. justice and a Bill that protects Britain’s reputation as a That could have been put right in the Bill, but unfortunately, force for good in the world, upholding universal human the Minister is not prepared to listen. He says that he is rights and a rules-based international order. prepared to work with people; the exact opposite has In truth, the closer people look at this legislation, the been the truth throughout the passage of the Bill. less they like it. Two things have become clear since As for the Secretary of State trying to blame all this Second Reading. First, this is a dishonest and damaging on a wicked Labour Government, it was a Labour Bill that does not do what it says on the tin. It entirely Government who met the armed forces pay review fails to deal with the main problem, which is baseless every year and ensured that defence expenditure kept and repeated investigations and, worse, it breaches the pace with inflation. It was his Government who, in armed forces covenant, it risks British troops being coalition, put IHAT and Northmoor in place in 2010. dragged before the International Criminal Court, and it When these cases were going on when I was a Minister, does more to protect the MOD that it does our armed it was Conservative Members who were asking why we forces personnel. Secondly, despite a growing cross-party were not investigating them more. There is selective concern and chorus of criticism, especially from those memory on the Government Benches. We had an with military experience or connections, Ministers are opportunity to get a good Bill that would address the in denial about the flaws in this Bill. With the arrogance issues and improve the situation for veterans, and that of an 80-seat majority, they dismiss those who argue for has been missed because of the arrogance of the Minister amendment as disingenuous. who has led it through the House. This demands a signal of how serious we see these 7 pm flaws as being, which is why we will vote against Third Debate interrupted (Programme Order, 23 September). Reading. We want our troops to be better protected. We want our British military to be held in the highest The Deputy Speaker put forthwith the Question already regard around the world. We want our British justice proposed from the Chair (Standing Order No. 83E), system to set standards that others follow. It is because That the Bill be now read the Third time. we passionately believe in these values that we cannot The House divided: Ayes 345, Noes 260. accept this Bill as it stands. Division No. 159] [7 pm AYES 6.56 pm Adams, Nigel Beresford, Sir Paul Stewart Malcolm McDonald: I also thank the Clerks Afolami, Bim Berry, rh Jake and the staff of the House who have worked on the Bill Afriyie, Adam Bhatti, Saqib Ahmad Khan, Imran Blackman, Bob and the Library staff who have worked hard to ensure Aldous, Peter Blunt, Crispin that Members are briefed properly. I want to mention Allan, Lucy Bone, Mr Peter Clorinda Luck, our own researcher, who has put a lot of Amess, Sir David Bowie, Andrew work into this as well. Anderson, Lee Bradley, Ben I echo much of what the shadow Secretary of State Anderson, Stuart Bradley, rh Karen has said. We all wanted to solve the Phil Shiner problem. Andrew, Stuart Brady, Sir Graham I do not think that any of us wants to see Phil Shiner Ansell, Caroline Braverman, rh Suella mark 2, but this was not the way to do it. The Minister, Argar, Edward Brereton, Jack with whom I enjoy these exchanges, has let himself Atherton, Sarah Bridgen, Andrew Atkins, Victoria Brine, Steve down. He could have had a chance, as he said he wanted Bacon, Gareth Bristow, Paul on Second Reading, to bring together all the Members Bacon, Mr Richard Britcliffe, Sara of the House who wanted to solve the problem, and he Badenoch, Kemi Brokenshire, rh James did not accept one single amendment. On arithmetic, he Bailey, Shaun Browne, Anthony might win this evening, but his powers of persuasion Baillie, Siobhan Bruce, Fiona and politics clearly need a lot more polishing than he Baker, Duncan Buchan, Felicity thinks. When this legislation comes forward on Baker, Mr Steve Buckland, rh Robert investigations next year, I hope that he will look back at Baldwin, Harriett Burghart, Alex the Hansard of this debate and at how he conducted the Baron, Mr John Burns, rh Conor passage of the Bill and do it differently next time. He Baynes, Simon Butler, Rob has good will in the House that I fear he has squandered Bell, Aaron Cairns, rh Alun irreparably, especially in the passage tonight. This Bill Benton, Scott Campbell, Mr Gregory 279 Overseas Operations (Service 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Overseas Operations (Service 280 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill Carter, Andy Gideon, Jo Lewer, Andrew Richardson, Angela Cartlidge, James Gillan, rh Dame Cheryl Lewis, rh Brandon Roberts, Rob Cash, Sir William Girvan, Paul Lewis, rh Dr Julian Robertson, Mr Laurence Cates, Miriam Glen, John Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Robinson, Gavin Caulfield, Maria Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Lockhart, Carla Robinson, Mary Chalk, Alex Graham, Richard Loder, Chris Rosindell, Andrew Chishti, Rehman Grant, Mrs Helen Logan, Mark Ross, Douglas Churchill, Jo Grayling, rh Chris Longhi, Marco Rowley, Lee Clarke, Mr Simon Green, Chris Lopez, Julia Russell, Dean Clarke, Theo Green, rh Damian Lopresti, Jack Rutley, David Clarke-Smith, Brendan Griffith, Andrew Lord, Mr Jonathan Saxby, Selaine Clarkson, Chris Griffiths, Kate Loughton, Tim Scully, Paul Cleverly, rh James Grundy, James Mackinlay, Craig Seely, Bob Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Gullis, Jonathan Mackrory, Cherilyn Selous, Andrew Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Halfon, rh Robert Maclean, Rachel Shannon, Jim Colburn, Elliot Hall, Luke Mak, Alan Shapps, rh Grant Collins, Damian Hammond, Stephen Malthouse, Kit Shelbrooke, rh Alec Costa, Alberto Hands, rh Greg Mangnall, Anthony Simmonds, David Courts, Robert Harper, rh Mr Mark Mann, Scott Skidmore, rh Chris Coutinho, Claire Harris, Rebecca Marson, Julie Smith, Chloe Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Harrison, Trudy May, rh Mrs Theresa Smith, Greg Crabb, rh Stephen Hart, Sally-Ann Mayhew, Jerome Smith, Henry Crosbie, Virginia Hart, rh Simon Maynard, Paul Smith, rh Julian Crouch, Tracey Hayes, rh Sir John McCartney, Jason Smith, Royston Daly, James Heald, rh Sir Oliver McCartney, Karl Solloway, Amanda Davies, David T. C. Heaton-Harris, Chris McVey, rh Esther Spencer, Dr Ben Davies, Gareth Henderson, Gordon Menzies, Mark Spencer, rh Mark Davies, Dr James Henry, Darren Mercer, Johnny Stafford, Alexander Davies, Mims Higginbotham, Antony Merriman, Huw Stephenson, Andrew Davies, Philip Hinds, rh Damian Metcalfe, Stephen Stevenson, Jane Davison, Dehenna Hoare, Simon Millar, Robin Stevenson, John Dinenage, Caroline Holden, Mr Richard Miller, rh Mrs Maria Stewart, Bob Dines, Miss Sarah Hollinrake, Kevin Milling, rh Amanda Stewart, Iain Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hollobone, Mr Philip Mills, Nigel Streeter, Sir Gary Docherty, Leo Holloway, Adam Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stride, rh Mel Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. Holmes, Paul Mohindra, Mr Gagan Stuart, Graham Donelan, Michelle Howell, John Moore, Damien Sturdy, Julian Dorries, Ms Nadine Howell, Paul Moore, Robbie Sunderland, James Double, Steve Huddleston, Nigel Mordaunt, rh Penny Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Dowden, rh Oliver Hudson, Dr Neil Morris, Anne Marie Syms, Sir Robert Doyle-Price, Jackie Hughes, Eddie Morris, David Thomas, Derek Drax, Richard Hunt, Jane Morris, James Timpson, Edward Drummond, Mrs Flick Hunt, rh Jeremy Morrissey, Joy Tolhurst, Kelly Duddridge, James Hunt, Tom Morton, Wendy Tomlinson, Justin Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Jack, rh Mr Alister Mullan, Dr Kieran Tomlinson, Michael Dunne, rh Philip Javid, rh Sajid Mumby-Croft, Holly Tracey, Craig Eastwood, Mark Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Murray, Mrs Sheryll Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie Edwards, Ruth Jenkin, Sir Bernard Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Trott, Laura Ellis, rh Michael Jenkinson, Mark Neill, Sir Robert Truss, rh Elizabeth Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Jenkyns, Andrea Nici, Lia Tugendhat, Tom Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Jenrick, rh Robert Nokes, rh Caroline Vara, Mr Shailesh Eustice, rh George Johnson, Dr Caroline Norman, rh Jesse Vickers, Martin Evans, Dr Luke Johnson, Gareth O’Brien, Neil Vickers, Matt Evennett, rh Sir David Johnston, David Offord, Dr Matthew Villiers, rh Theresa Everitt, Ben Jones, Andrew Paisley, Ian Wakeford, Christian Fabricant, Michael Jones, rh Mr David Parish, Neil Walker, Sir Charles Fell, Simon Jones, Fay Paterson, rh Mr Owen Walker, Mr Robin Fletcher, Katherine Jones, Mr Marcus Pawsey, Mark Wallace, rh Mr Ben Fletcher, Mark Jupp, Simon Penning, rh Sir Mike Wallis, Dr Jamie Fletcher, Nick Kawczynski, Daniel Penrose, John Warburton, David Ford, Vicky Kearns, Alicia Philp, Chris Warman, Matt Foster, Kevin Keegan, Gillian Pincher, rh Christopher Watling, Giles Fox, rh Dr Liam Knight, rh Sir Greg Poulter, Dr Dan Webb, Suzanne Francois, rh Mr Mark Knight, Julian Pow, Rebecca Whately, Helen Frazer, Lucy Kruger, Danny Prentis, Victoria Wheeler, Mrs Heather Freer, Mike Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Pursglove, Tom Whittaker, Craig Fuller, Richard Lamont, John Quin, Jeremy Whittingdale, rh Mr John Fysh, Mr Marcus Largan, Robert Quince, Will Wiggin, Bill Gale, rh Sir Roger Latham, Mrs Pauline Randall, Tom Wild, James Garnier, Mark Leadsom, rh Andrea Redwood, rh John Williams, Craig Ghani, Ms Nusrat Leigh, rh Sir Edward Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Williamson, rh Gavin Gibson, Peter Levy, Ian Richards, Nicola Wilson, rh Sammy 281 Overseas Operations (Service 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Overseas Operations (Service 282 Personnel and Veterans) Bill Personnel and Veterans) Bill Wood, Mike Zahawi, Nadhim Jones, Ruth Perkins, Mr Toby Wragg, Mr William Tellers for the Ayes: Jones, Sarah Phillips, Jess Wright, rh Jeremy Maggie Throup and Kane, Mike Phillipson, Bridget Young, Jacob David Duguid Keeley, Barbara Pollard, Luke Khan, Afzal Powell, Lucy Kinnock, Stephen Qureshi, Yasmin NOES Kyle, Peter Rayner, Angela Abbott, rh Ms Diane Dodds, Anneliese Lake, Ben Reed, Steve Abrahams, Debbie Doogan, Dave Lammy, rh Mr David Rees, Christina Ali, Rushanara Dorans, Allan Lavery, Ian Reeves, Ellie Ali, Tahir Dowd, Peter Law, Chris Reeves, Rachel Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Dromey, Jack Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Reynolds, Jonathan Amesbury, Mike Duffield, Rosie Lewis, Clive Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Anderson, Fleur Eagle, Ms Angela Linden, David Rimmer, Ms Marie Antoniazzi, Tonia Eagle, Maria Lloyd, Tony Rodda, Matt Bardell, Hannah Eastwood, Colum Long Bailey, Rebecca Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Barker, Paula Edwards, Jonathan Lucas, Caroline Saville Roberts, rh Liz Beckett, rh Margaret Efford, Clive Lynch, Holly Sharma, Mr Virendra Begum, Apsana Elliott, Julie MacAskill, Kenny Sheerman, Mr Barry Benn, rh Hilary Elmore, Chris MacNeil, Angus Brendan Sheppard, Tommy Betts, Mr Clive Eshalomi, Florence Madders, Justin Siddiq, Tulip Black, Mhairi Esterson, Bill Mahmood, Mr Khalid Slaughter, Andy Blackford, rh Ian Evans, Chris Malhotra, Seema Smith, Alyn Blackman, Kirsty Farron, Tim Maskell, Rachael Smith, Cat Blake, Olivia Farry, Stephen Matheson, Christian Smith, Jeff Bonnar, Steven Fellows, Marion Mc Nally, John Smith, Nick Brabin, Tracy Ferrier, Margaret McCabe, Steve Smyth, Karin Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Flynn, Stephen McCarthy, Kerry Sobel, Alex Brennan, Kevin Fovargue, Yvonne McDonagh, Siobhain Spellar, rh John Brock, Deidre Foxcroft, Vicky McDonald, Andy Starmer, rh Keir Brown, Alan Foy, Mary Kelly McDonald, Stewart Malcolm Stephens, Chris Brown, Ms Lyn Furniss, Gill McDonald, Stuart C. Stevens, Jo Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Gardiner, Barry McDonnell, rh John Streeting, Wes Bryant, Chris Gibson, Patricia McFadden, rh Mr Pat Sultana, Zarah Buck, Ms Karen Gill, Preet Kaur McGinn, Conor Tami, rh Mark Burgon, Richard Glindon, Mary McGovern, Alison Tarry, Sam Butler, Dawn Grady, Patrick McKinnell, Catherine Thewliss, Alison McLaughlin, Anne Byrne, Ian Grant, Peter Thomas-Symonds, Nick McMahon, Jim Byrne, rh Liam Gray, Neil Thompson, Owen Cadbury, Ruth Green, Kate McMorrin, Anna Thornberry, rh Emily Callaghan, Amy Greenwood, Lilian Mearns, Ian Thomson, Richard Cameron, Dr Lisa Greenwood, Margaret Miliband, rh Edward Timms, rh Stephen Campbell, rh Sir Alan Griffith, Nia Mishra, Navendu Trickett, Jon Carden, Dan Gwynne, Andrew Monaghan, Carol Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Haigh, Louise Moran, Layla Turner, Karl Chamberlain, Wendy Hamilton, Fabian Morden, Jessica Twigg, Derek Champion, Sarah Hanna, Claire Morgan, Stephen Twist, Liz Chapman, Douglas Hanvey, Neale Morris, Grahame Vaz, rh Valerie Cherry, Joanna Hardy, Emma Murray, Ian Webbe, Claudia Clark, Feryal Harman, rh Ms Harriet Murray, James West, Catherine Cooper, Daisy Harris, Carolyn Nandy, Lisa Western, Matt Cooper, Rosie Hayes, Helen Newlands, Gavin Whitehead, Dr Alan Cooper, rh Yvette Healey, rh John Nichols, Charlotte Whitford, Dr Philippa Corbyn, rh Jeremy Hendrick, Sir Mark Nicolson, John Whitley, Mick Cowan, Ronnie Hendry, Drew Norris, Alex Whittome, Nadia Coyle, Neil Hill, Mike Olney, Sarah Williams, Hywel Crawley, Angela Hillier, Meg Onwurah, Chi Wilson, Munira Creasy, Stella Hobhouse, Wera Oppong-Asare, Abena Winter, Beth Osamor, Kate Cruddas, Jon Hodge, rh Dame Margaret Wishart, Pete Osborne, Kate Cryer, John Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Yasin, Mohammad Cummins, Judith Hollern, Kate Oswald, Kirsten Zeichner, Daniel Cunningham, Alex Hopkins, Rachel Owatemi, Taiwo Daby, Janet Hosie, Stewart Owen, Sarah Tellers for the Noes: Davey, rh Ed Howarth, rh Sir George Peacock, Stephanie Colleen Fletcher and David, Wayne Huq, Dr Rupa Pennycook, Matthew Bambos Charalambous Davies, Geraint Hussain, Imran Davies-Jones, Alex Jarvis, Dan Question accordingly agreed to. Day, Martyn Johnson, Dame Diana Bill read the Third time and passed. De Cordova, Marsha Johnson, Kim Debbonaire, Thangam Jones, Darren The list of Members currently certified as eligible for a Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Jones, Gerald proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their Docherty-Hughes, Martin Jones, rh Mr Kevan proxy, is published at the end of today’s debates. 283 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Business without Debate 284

Business without Debate PROXY VOTING DURING THE PANDEMIC Ordered, That, with effect until 30 March 2021, the following amendments DELEGATED LEGISLATION be made to Standing Order No. 39A (Voting by Proxy): Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing (1) in paragraph (2) leave out “by reason of absence from the Order No. 118(6)), precincts of the House”; (2) in paragraph (3) (a) in sub-paragraph (a), leave out “and”; and EXITING THE EUROPEAN UNION (AGRICULTURE) (b) leave out sub-paragraph (b); That the draft Common Organisation of the Markets in Agricultural Products (Producer Organisations and Wine) (3) after paragraph (3) insert: (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020, which were laid () No Member who holds a proxy vote may participate in before this House on 5 October, be approved. person in a division in the House, including a deferred division; (4) leave out sub-paragraph (4)(a); and EXITING THE EUROPEAN UNION (AGRICULTURE) That the draft Agriculture (Payments) (Amendment, etc) (EU (5) in paragraph (7), leave out “by reason of absence from the Exit) Regulations 2020, which were laid before this House on precincts of the House”.—(James Morris.) 5 October, be approved. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): I remind hon. Members of the Speaker’s statement earlier EXITING THE EUROPEAN UNION (FOOD) that he will introduce the new proxy voting with effect That the draft Nutrition (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations from tomorrow, including hon. Members who make 2020, which were laid before this House on 29 September, be their designation before 9.30 am tomorrow. That is to approved. remind hon. Members that, if they wish to have a proxy vote tomorrow, they must make that designation before EXITING THE EUROPEAN UNION (CRIMINAL LAW) 9.30 am tomorrow. To apply for a proxy, Members must That the draft Taking Account of Convictions (EU Exit) email [email protected] with the name of their (Amendment) Regulations 2020, which were laid before this nominated proxy. House on 24 September, be approved. PROCEDURE COMMITTEE ARMORIAL BEARINGS,ENSIGNS AND FLAGS Ordered, That the draft Flags (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2020, which were laid before this House on 23 September, That Rob Roberts be discharged from the Procedure Committee be approved.—(James Morris.) and Aaron Bell be added.—(Bill Wiggin, on behalf of the Committee of Selection.) Question agreed to.

PETITIONS BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (PRIVATE MEMBERS’ BILLS) Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): I Ordered, must remind hon. Members that the presentation of a petition in the House is not an occasion for a speech. That: The presentation of a petition involves words taking (1) the Resolution of the House of 16 January 2020 (Business approximately one minute. of the House (Private Members’ Bills)), as amended by the Orders of the House of 25 March, 22 April, 12 May, 10 June and 1 July Restoration of Hammersmith Bridge 2020 (Business of the House (Private Members’ Bills)), is further amended as follows: leave out “6 November 2020, 13 November 2020, 27 November 7.19 pm 2020, 15 January 2021, 29 January 2021, 5 February 2021,” and Sarah Olney (Richmond Park) (LD): I present this insert “8 January 2021, 15 January 2021, 22 January 2021, 29 January 2021, 5 February 2021, 26 February 2021,” petition, on behalf of the residents of the constituency of Richmond Park, for the restoration of Hammersmith (2) the Orders for Second Reading of Bills on each of the days listed under Day 1 in the table below are read and discharged; Bridge. This has been discussed on a number of occasions in this House already, so many Members will be aware (3) each such Bill is ordered to be read a second time on the corresponding day listed under Day 2 in the table; and that it has been closed to motor traffic since last April, and entirely to cyclists and walkers from August this (4) those Bills are set down to be read a second time on the year. I present the petition, on behalf of my residents, appropriate Day 2 in the order in which they were set down to be read a second time on the corresponding Day 1. that every effort should be made to urgently get the bridge back up and running as soon as possible. Day 1 Day 2 Following is the full text of the petition: [The petition of residents of the constituency of Richmond Park, 6 November 2020 8 January 2021 Declares that Hammersmith Bridge is an essential transport route 13 November 2020 15 January 2021 for South West London and its closure to walkers, cyclists and boats 27 November 2020 22 January 2021 since 13 August has caused major problems for residents; notes that 15 January 2021 29 January 2021 its closure has caused journeys for school children that used to be a 29 January 2021 5 February 2021 10 minute walk, now take 90 minutes across unsafe tow paths; 5 February 2021 26 February 2021 further declares that elderly and disabled residents are now having to pay upwards of £40 in taxi fares to access vital services in —(James Morris.) Hammersmith; further declares that there has been a damaging 285 Business without Debate3 NOVEMBER 2020 Business without Debate 286 effect on business owners who relied on footfall across the bridge; about the recent decision by TSB Bank to close its branches in further declares that redirected transport has created traffic jams Kilbirnie, Largs and Saltcoats; notes that seven of the ten towns and increased pollution; further declares that people are now cut off in the constituency of North Ayrshire & Arran – namely West from hospitals, schools and work; and further declares that the Kilbride, Dalry, Ardrossan, Stevenston, Beith, and now Kilbirnie Transport Minister said he would fund repairs to the bridge before are now without any high street bank, making it one of the worst the election however the cracks in the bridge have only worsened. hit constituencies in the UK for bank branch closures; declares The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges that many high street businesses are adversely impacted by bank the Government to take into account the concerns of the petitioners branch closures, as they face increased insurance costs without and support the Council to build a temporary walking and cycling local access to night safes to deposit cash at the end of the bridge so people can cross the river; and take action to restore the business day; further declares that local communities, particularly Hammersmith Bridge with urgency. elderly and disabled residents who are more likely to face digital And the petitioners remain, etc.] exclusion, will suffer because of these decisions which increasingly force consumers to bank online; and further expresses deep [P002620] disappointment that customers feel they have no choice but to accept online banking, however reluctantly or endure lengthy Fleur Anderson (Putney) (Lab): I rise to present a journeys in order to effectively manage their money. petition on behalf of the residents of Putney regarding The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons the restoration of Hammersmith bridge, alongside an urges the UK Government to work in partnership with the online petition on the same topic, which has been banking industry to deliver banking hubs for communities to signed by nearly 1,200 people. Hammersmith bridge is a ensure financial inclusion for all. major national heritage site and an important London And the petitioners remain, etc. transport route. It has major cracks and is closed even [P002618] for boats underneath. Hammersmith and Fulham Council and Transport for London have put in millions of Support for the wedding industry pounds for the restoration, but what is needed is the Transport Minister to step up and fund the restoration David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP): I will try to be a of the bridge. The taskforce has been meeting for six wee bit briefer this time, Madam Deputy Speaker. This weeks, but without agreeing funding—so little task and petition focuses specifically on the wedding and events no force. The residents of Putney, Roehampton and industry,which has been decimated by lockdown regulations Southfields petition the Government to urgently pay to and given no sector support. One such example is restore Hammersmith bridge. DollyBird Stationery in my constituency, run by Dawn Following is the full text of the petition: Marie Feeney, which produces high-quality wedding stationery. Dawn’s order book is incredibly strong for [To the House of Commons. future years, but what is needed is more support in the The petition of residents of the United Kingdom, short term. Declares that Hammersmith Bridge is an essential transport route The petition states: for South West London and its closure to walkers, cyclists and boats since 13 August has caused major problems for residents; notes that The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons its closure has caused bus journeys to Roehampton to take up to an urge the Government to bring forward immediate additional hour extra and led to thousands of additional vehicles using Putney measures to support the wider wedding industry,including hospitality High Street; further declares that redirected transport has created venues, outfitters, suppliers, the entertainment industry… And traffic jams and increased pollution; further declares that people are the petitioners remain, etc. now cut off from hospitals, schools and work; and further declares Following is the full text of the petition: that the Transport Minister said he would fund repairs to the bridge before the election however the cracks in the bridge have only [The petition of the residents of the constituency of Glasgow worsened. East, The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges Declares that the economic consequences of the Coronavirus pandemic the Government to take into account the concerns of the petitioners have had a devastating effect on the wider wedding industry; further and support the Council to build a temporary walking and cycling declares that this impact is felt across hospitality venues, catering bridge so people can cross the river; and take action to restore the suppliers, outfitters, bands and DJs, limousine and tax hire companies, Hammersmith Bridge with urgency. coach companies, and photographers; further declares that many of these groups now have no income or support; further declares that And the petitioners remain, etc.] these are all viable businesses when restrictions are lifted and full [P002621] weddings can take place; and further declares that many people have been personally disappointed by the lost opportunity to marry Bank closures in North Ayrshire their loved ones in the setting they dreamed of, further that many people hope that they have their maximum choice available post covid-19 pandemic. Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP): I rise to present a petition on bank closures in North The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urge the Government to bring forward immediate additional measures to Ayrshire. support the wider wedding industry, including hospitality venues, The petition states: outfitters, suppliers, the entertainment industry, photographers, vehicle The petition of the constituency of North Ayrshire and Arran, hire companies and coach hire companies. Declares that there is an urgent need to tackle the exodus of And the petitioners remain, etc.] high street banks from North Ayrshire; expresses extreme concern [P002619] 287 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Housing: North Somerset 288

Housing: North Somerset Perhaps we will see the Shard built on Yatton high street; perhaps Churchill will have its new skyscrapers. Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House It simply is not credible to apply those housing numbers do now adjourn.—(James Morris.) to North Somerset. We are not NIMBYs. As I have said, there has been a 7.23 pm 50% increase in the number of our residents, and therefore Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con): I am very housing, over the period, but we need to safeguard the grateful for this opportunity to raise the issue of housing quality of life for those who already live there. The and house building numbers for North Somerset. I will infrastructure in our area is creaking in terms of the make some comments about the general situation, how number of schools and the GP services that we have. we got to this point and elements that affect my constituency. Our policing is overstretched and our roads leave a Then, with your permission, Madam Deputy Speaker, great deal to be desired. my hon. Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare In Wrington, one of the villages in the green belt (John Penrose) will add some comments about the where there has been some development, we have already situation in his constituency. seen problems with flooding and drainage that were entirely predicted; I raised the issue with the district North Somerset, as it is now, had a population in council at the time. Road traffic access is a nightmare in 1971 of 139,924 residents. By 2018, that had increased a village where the infrastructure had already been to 213,919. We have seen an increase of more than 50% degraded. In Portishead, our schools are already full. in our population since the 1970s. That has naturally Yatton is used as the emergency route when there is a been accompanied by a huge amount of house building closure to the M5, which is a joke, because at the best of in my constituency. That has particularly been around times it is effectively a single lane road through a small Nailsea and Backwell. There has been huge development village. and growth in Clevedon and, most recently,the development in Portishead, one of the most successful developments In Clevedon, there is an attempt to use our last bit of of a brownfield site anywhere in the country. Of course, green belt in Cleveland East to build an overflow school. Weston-super-Mare has seen its own dramatic growth Long Ashton and Dundry in particular have the nightmare in that time, which my hon. Friend will come to. prospect of a huge housing estate being planned that will effectively take the urban sprawl from Bristol into Our current adopted requirement for housing is 20,995 North Somerset. The whole point of the green belt dwellings for the period 2006 to 2026, which is 1,049 per there is to stop urban sprawl and to stop Bristol moving year, but—this is where reality breaks in—developers south into North Somerset. We utterly reject the idea of have not delivered anything like those numbers in that some of those lovely villages having huge housing estates, period. In fact, despite a large number of sites with full which would be an eyesore as well as a burden on the planning consent, only 808 dwellings on average have local authority. been produced per year in that period. Only in one year, 2007, did we exceed the target, and that was at the The Government have said that they want to increase height of growth in Portishead. the infrastructure budget, particularly in the north of I now come to the projected numbers. The previous England. I am absolutely, fully committed to that; it joint spatial plan gave North Somerset a new target of makes perfect sense to spread opportunity to all parts 25,000 new homes over 20 years, which means 1,250 per of the country. But if that is where the infrastructure year. Under the new methodology, however, with a spending is going to go, why are we increasing the target of 300,000 new homes per year nationally for housing supply in the south of England, where we are each year of this Parliament, that has risen again to not getting the investment in the infrastructure? That 1,365 dwellings per year. applies not only to our constituencies in north Somerset but to many of the constituencies of my right hon. and That was already beyond the realms of what we hon. Friends, who took the opportunity in the Lobby believed possible, but to take us well into “Alice in tonight to say, “Speak for us when you are having your Wonderland” territory, the Government’s new algorithm Adjournment debate.” We need to have house building in the plan to get us to 370,000 homes nationally per commensurate with investment in the infrastructure. year takes it to 1,708 dwellings per year for North We cannot have the mismatch that we seem to be Somerset, which is 25,620 over a 15-year period. That is developing at the present time. more than twice as many as the market has delivered on average in that period. So we have these fantasy numbers So what do we want to see in North Somerset? We that come from the socialist planning edict, rather than need to develop brownfield sites, particularly in Bristol. what the market has delivered for us. The idea that there are cost issues should not be allowed to get in the way of building on the most appropriate The question is, where will those houses actually go? sites where they are closest to the city environment with I am aware of the strictures about not using props, but I all the infrastructure that already exists there. We need will explain to the Minister the little gift that I intend to to look, particularly in the post-covid environment, at give him at the end of this debate, which will show him a change of use from offices and shops to more dwellings, map of North Somerset plus green belt. By the time we bringing people back into our town centres and improving add on the flood plain, areas of outstanding natural the life of our communities there. We want to get rid of beauty,aerodrome safeguarded zones and the conservation North Somerset’s obligation to make up for unmet need areas, he might like to show me on the map where the in Bristol. Why should the residents of North Somerset 26,000 homes will go. have to pay the price, in terms of pressure on their I could encourage the Minister to improve his infrastructure, for the failure of the authorities in Bristol colouring-in skills, but there is nothing to colour in on a to meet their own housing needs, especially given that map where everything is already completely used up. there are brownfield sites yet to be built on? 289 Housing: North Somerset3 NOVEMBER 2020 Housing: North Somerset 290

We need to have—this is a more generic issue than have enough houses for this to be affordable. Both my just what we face in North Somerset—a methodology right hon. Friend and I, and many local residents, agree that is realistic. We need to have a clear link to local with the notion that, as a country, we have to build demographics, not some made-up numbers that are more houses, but the question is where we build them simply applied irrespective of the real conditions in our and why the existing system is forcing people to build in population. We must have a fact-based assessment of the wrong places and in the wrong ways. need in our constituencies. We must have a sensible view My right hon. Friend is also right to point out that if of the constraints already in place, including all the we stick with the current approach, we stand absolutely issues that I mentioned, including the fact that we have no chance of delivering on the number of houses that such a large amount of green belt, and the fact that we are required. That is not because there are not enough have the north Somerset levels, with some of the areas places with planning permission or because there are that would otherwise be used for planning being on not enough permitted areas where planning permission floodplain. The clue to the impact on those areas is in has already been agreed, but simply because the existing the term “flood”, which is why we do not expect to see housebuilders have a business model which requires building there. We need to have to have the right type of them to dribble out houses consistently over many years housing. We want to see more affordable housing so at no more than a pre-set rate—about 800 every year in that young people who grow up in North Somerset are our areas—in order to avoid deflating the cost of housing not forced to leave and come back only when they have by building too fast and ruining their investments. So, if attained a much higher income later on in their life. We we do not change something soon, we will never get to have a mismatch with our demographics. We need more the numbers that the Minister is rightly setting for the young people to be able to stay and live where they grew entire country. up. We have to see housing targets and the type of house building that are in line with our environmental Therefore, I urge the Minister to consider that Weston- targets. super-Mare, perhaps some of the areas in my right hon. Friend’s constituency, and certainly central Bristol should I believe that the Government fully understand the be willing to take more homes in the middle of towns, need for more house building across the United Kingdom, rather than in the areas, which, as my right hon. Friend but we have already seen our share of development in rightly pointed out in his nicely coloured-in map, are our part of the country. We are constrained by the very not available to be built on outside towns. Central elements that the Government themselves set down. We Weston needs the investment; central Weston would be cannot build on green belt. Wecannot build on floodplain. delighted to have more homes built in the right places. It is an accident of nature that we have the north That points to one of the advantages of the Government’s Somerset levels. We cannot build in the protected areas: latest set of proposals for permitted development rights in areas of outstanding natural beauty or conservation with carefully constructed local council-approved planning areas. I invite my right hon. Friend the Minister, for guidelines. some amusement over the weekend, to take back the map of North Somerset that shows all these elements included, and show me where 26,000 houses are meant Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab): I to go. congratulate the right hon. Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox) on securing this Adjournment debate. Does the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare (John Penrose) 7.33 pm agree that one of the issues about density of dwelling in John Penrose (Weston-super-Mare) (Con): I congratulate planning, and one of the issues with the White Paper my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset proposals, is that we will have less control over what (Dr Fox), my parliamentary neighbour, on securing this sort of densities would get built out by the developers? debate and on making the case so eloquently and forcefully not just on behalf of his own constituents but on behalf John Penrose: Actually, I respectfully disagree with of my constituents—and, as he rightly pointed out, that last point, because local authorities will be able to given the various comments that we have both been set development codes, which will be able to dictate the getting in the Lobby during the votes just now, on level of density, and they can also dictate the look and behalf of a great deal more constituencies right the way feel of the areas. As a result, places like central Weston across the country. and central Bristol, where development is, on average I want to pick up on a couple of the points that my two storeys tall, could easily—and in the case of central right hon. Friend made—very briefly, because I want to Weston, would gladly—absorb more homes if we were leave time for the Housing Minister to respond. He is able to go up to four storeys tall. We are not proposing absolutely right to say that North Somerset as a whole to emulate the Shard, as my right hon. Friend rightly has absorbed a huge amount of housing over the past points out, because that would be completely inappropriate, 50 years. We cannot, by any stretch of the imagination, but we want to go up to four storeys, or maybe five at be described as NIMBYs. We have taken an enormous the outside. We want to build elegant townhouses and numbers of houses. We are happy to take more if they mews houses; the sort of things that we are proud to are in the right places, because, as he rightly points out, look at in parts of Weston already, and certainly in there are very many local residents who want their parts of central Bristol and parts of Bath. Such beautiful children to be able to afford to live locally—who do not bits of architecture—more dense, but beautifully put want them to be forced to move away and come back together—could absorb all the homes if we were only only when they have made their fortunes, if they can. able to do it. But the current system—the current method That is clearly not the right way to do it, and it is clearly of allocating those homes—does not allow us to do it, not the right way to have sustainable and balanced because local authorities do not get credit if they start communities either, so therefore we want to be able to to allocate building in those areas. 291 Housing: North Somerset3 NOVEMBER 2020 Housing: North Somerset 292

Dr Fox: Will my hon. Friend accept that his argument by my hon. Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare, is further strengthened by the fact that the housing with pattern book approaches. They will also deliver density in many of our cities in the United Kingdom is stronger environmental outcomes, protecting our green well below the level of housing density that is taken for belt and our precious green spaces. granted in most cities in Europe? At the same time as we launched the planning White Paper, we set out our proposals for the shorter term in John Penrose: My right hon. Friend is absolutely our consultation on changes to the current planning right, and if we do it this way round we are using the system and local housing need calculation. As I said in existing infrastructure, rather than overburdening the the Backbench Business debate on the issue a couple of already stretched infrastructure in our rural areas. It is weeks ago, however, some of the numbers we have seen greener, too, because people can live closer to work. If bandied around from the Commons Library or the we start building yet more in rural villages—in my case, Lichfields assessment are entirely speculative. places like Churchill or Langford or Congresbury—we just create commuter towns and villages, and we add to The consultation on the local housing need methodology the level of the commuting carbon footprint as a result. closed on 1 October, and we are working through the If people can live near where they work—which is much feedback from it. I have heard today, in the Backbench more covid-friendly as well—we stand a chance of Business debate and in discussions with right hon. and creating greener, more sustainable communities, and hon. Members across the Chamber, concerns that have ones where investment is desired. However, that does been expressed about the proposed changes, in particular require the Government to change the process—to change some areas that might see increased levels that they will the way they give credit for the sites that are thus find difficult to plan for. created. That would ensure that the big volume builders, We have tried to approach the process fairly, based on whose whole business plan is based around building on evidence, because the evidence shows that for too many greenfield sites, do not get the only view of the situation, people homes are simply unaffordable. That is why I and town and city centre development becomes a route should be clear that both the current and the proposed for councils to satisfy the housing numbers they are standard method have a focus on affordability, because required to build. it cannot be right that in areas where, historically, supply has simply not kept up with demand, people are 7.39 pm prevented from living where they most want to, or The Minister for Housing (Christopher Pincher): I where they most need to, in the places that perhaps they congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for call home. North Somerset (Dr Fox) on securing this debate and Indeed, it is a question of intergenerational fairness. on his, as ever, eloquent contribution. I am always keen We need to build more homes to help young people on to hear his views. I am also keen and happy to look at to the housing ladder and also help some of the most his maths, and happy to discuss what the colouring of vulnerable people in society—some of our elderly. We the maps might be. I am grateful for the insights that he must consider the question of affordability. However, as has given to us. The issue of housing, including housing I said, I have heard hon. Members, most recently my numbers, is of great importance to many Members right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset and across the House, including my hon. Friend the Member my hon. Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare, for Weston-super-Mare (John Penrose), who also spoke who are concerned about the effect that this might have with great prescience and insight, and I am happy to on the geographical balance of our country—that there discuss his ideas at some future point. may be too many homes in the south and not enough in I think we would all agree that, to achieve the aims of the north. our manifesto commitment of building 300,000 new homes a year by the mid-2020s, we need to find the right That is why we are looking at other levers, such as balance, which is ambitious in its vision for the future of stock renewal—regeneration of places—where it is required, our planning system and house building, and fair. That generally in the industrial west midlands and the industrial is why we recently set out our long-term vision in our north. We are looking at all-important city regeneration, planning White Paper, “Planning for the future”, the as mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Weston- consultation on which closed last week. super-Mare. We are committed, in the national planning policy framework and in our consultation proposals, to We believe that the proposals will create a reformed further brownfield development, and we are committed system that not only delivers the houses that we need, to reimagining our town and city centres. but puts communities at the heart of a process that encourages more community engagement from the very That is why we have introduced permitted development beginning, so that people play a fuller part in the rights statutory instruments that allow for the demolition proactive place-making of their environment. Right and rebuilding of commercial property to make it easier now, something like 2% of local populations take an to turn that into residential property.We have introduced active role in individual planning applications. That changes to use classification to make it easier for town percentage can fall as low as 1% in the development of centres to accommodate more residential accommodation local plans. so that they can once again become the places they used The proposals will also encourage fairer contributions to be before, perhaps, the 1970s and the 1960s—places from developers—a point made by my right hon. Friend where people live as well as work. the Member for North Somerset—with a new infrastructure I am in no doubt that achieving the right balance is levy to fund critical infrastructure and affordable housing. critical. We need to challenge the affordability issues The proposals will contribute to more beautiful homes that bedevil so many people in our country and the and communities through local design codes, as mentioned places that they want to live. 293 Housing: North Somerset3 NOVEMBER 2020 Housing: North Somerset 294

Matt Western: Will the Minister give way? know that political geography does not always map easily on to economic or physical geography,so I recognise Christopher Pincher: I am happy to give way to the what my right hon. Friend says. hon. Gentleman, because I am sure he wants to raise a I will make a couple more points before the fickle point about North Somerset. finger of time points us towards the door of the Chamber. My right hon. Friend raised the issue of infrastructure. Matt Western: The Minister is very generous. I want We recognise that the present system of infrastructure to concentrate on that point about affordability. In his levy does not work. We have heard that 80% of local vision, does he see that there is a role for council house authorities think that the system of section 106 or council flat building? Surely, as the right hon. Member contributions is too slow, and negotiations between for North Somerset (Dr Fox) illustrated about his area—I councils and developers cannot be relied on fully to am sure it is true across the country—truly affordable provide what communities truly need, when they need accommodation must be delivered through council house it. That is why, in the White Paper, we have proposed a building as well. more widely set infrastructure levy. That will simplify the system and ensure fairer contributions from developers. Christopher Pincher: The hon. Gentleman will know Crucially, we want to ensure that the levy provides that we have made it easier for councils to build council funds up front for the required infrastructure—the schools, houses. He will know that, through the affordable homes roads, clinics and playgrounds that local people expect programme that the Chancellor and my right hon. to see if new, good-quality, sustainable homes are being Friend the Secretary of State announced in September, built around them. We are consulting on whether the over the next five years we will inject £12.2 billion into levy should be set nationally, or locally or regionally to house building. We will build 180,000 new homes in our take account of regional economies. country, about 50% of which will be affordable and for social rent. I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman raised My right hon. Friend raised the question of build-out that point, and I am pleased to have been able to make and land-banking. He will know that Sir Oliver Letwin the point to him that we are building those affordable produced a report on build-out a couple of years ago. homes where they are necessary. He found no evidence of speculative land-banking, but we all recognise that developers do not always build out That is why we are looking at housing need now, at the pace that we would like. Our proposals will help considering carefully how each element of the formula to achieve that speedier build-out, but I look forward to that I described works together so that we can ensure considering the ideas in the consultation, so that we can that we achieve the right distribution of homes in the better incentivise developers to build out. most appropriate places and address any perceived imbalances. We have consulted, as I said, on each My right hon. Friend referred to flooding. He will element of the indicative formula, and we are reflecting know that we are considering carefully whether we need carefully on the feedback we have received. to make further changes to the national planning policy framework to protect areas at risk of flooding from Dr Fox: May I take my right hon. Friend back to unnecessary and inappropriate building. We should not what the market has actually delivered over time? Does lose sight of the Government’s successes over the past he accept that if councils are given targets for housing 10 years. There have been half a million additional new that are utterly unrealistic in relation to the numbers homes since 2010, and 240,000 of those were built in that have been built over time, the Government are England last year alone. We can be proud of that. likely to miss their own house building target, because I thank everybody who has contributed to this debate. houses will not be built in those areas to the extent that We need to get this right, and that depends on what we the Government would like, and that the process can be build, and where we build. I look forward to reading the self-defeating if the correct balance is not achieved? many contributions of my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset and my hon. Friend the Member Christopher Pincher: My right hon. Friend makes a for Weston-super-Mare to the two consultations that good point. That is why I said that we are looking very have just concluded, and look forward to further debates closely at the consultation feedback that we have received. on this matter. As part of the consultation on the “Planning for the Question put and agreed to. future”White Paper, we have asked providers of feedback to consider how we can improve the duty to co-operate between local authorities so that we get the right sorts 7.53 pm of homes spread over the regions of our country. We House adjourned. 295 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 296

Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy

The following is the list of Members currently certified Douglas Chapman Patrick Grady as eligible for a proxy vote, and of the Members nominated (Dunfermline and West Fife) as their proxy: (SNP) Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh Patrick Grady Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy South West) (SNP) Rehman Chishti (Gillingham Stuart Andrew Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney Bell Ribeiro-Addy and Rainham) (Con) North and Stoke Newington) (Lab) Mr Simon Clarke Stuart Andrew (Middlesbrough South and Debbie Abrahams (Oldham Chris Elmore East Cleveland) East and Saddleworth) (Lab) Theo Clarke (Stafford) (Con) Stuart Andrew Ali, Tahir (Birmingham, Hall Chris Elmore Green) (Lab) Damian Collins (Folkestone Stuart Andrew and Hythe) (Con) Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Chris Elmore (Tooting) (Lab) Rosie Cooper (West Chris Elmore Lancashire) (Lab) Mr Richard Bacon (South Stuart Andrew Norfolk) (Con) Alberto Costa (South Stuart Andrew Hannah Bardell (Livingston) Patrick Grady Leicestershire) (Con) (SNP) Claire Coutinho (East Surrey( Stuart Andrew Mr John Baron (Basildon and Stuart Andrew (Con) Billericay) (Con) Ronnie Cowan (Inverclyde) Patrick Grady Margaret Beckett (Derby Chris Elmore (SNP) South) (Lab) Geoffrey Cox (Torridge and Stuart Andrew Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Stuart Andrew West Devon) (Con) Valley) (Con) Angela Crawley (Lanark and Patrick Grady Jake Berry (Rossendale and Stuart Andrew Hamilton East) (SNP) Darwen) (Con) Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) Chris Elmore Clive Betts (Sheffield South Chris Elmore Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Caroline Nokes East) (Lab) Aylesford) (Con) Mhairi Black (Paisley and Patrick Grady Janet Daby (Lewisham East) Chris Elmore Renfrewshire South) (SNP) (Lab) Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Patrick Grady Geraint Davies (Swansea Dawn Butler Lochaber) (SNP) West) (Lab/Co-op) Bob Blackman (Harrow East) Stuart Andrew Martyn Day (Linlithgow and Patrick Grady (Con) East Falkirk) (SNP) Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen Patrick Grady Marsha De Cordova Rachel Hopkins North) (SNP) (Battersea) Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con) Stuart Andrew Martin Docherty-Hughes Patrick Grady Mr Peter Bone Stuart Andrew (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP) (Wellingborough) (Con) Allan Dorans (Ayr, Carrick Patrick Grady Steven Bonnar (Coatbridge, Patrick Grady and Cumnock) (SNP) Chryston and Bellshill) (SNP) Ms Nadine Dorries (Mid Stuart Andrew Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) Chris Elmore Bedfordshire) (Con) (Lab) Peter Dowd (Bootle) (Lab) Chris Elmore Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West Chris Elmore ) (Lab) Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Chris Elmore Erdington) (Lab) Andrew Bridgen (North West Stuart Andrew Leicestershire) (Con) Rosie Duffield (Canterbury) Chris Elmore (Lab) Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Patrick Grady Loudon (SNP) Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con) Jeremy Hunt Ms Lyn Brown (West Ham) Chris Elmore Ruth Edwards (Rushcliffe) Stuart Andrew (Lab) (Con) Chris Bryant (Rhondda) Chris Elmore Julie Elliott (Sunderland Chris Elmore (Lab) Central) (Lab) Richard Burgon (Leeds East) Zarah Sultana Mrs Natalie Elphicke (Dover) Maria Caulfield (Lab) Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) Chris Elmore Conor Burns (Bournemouth Stuart Andrew (Lab) West) (Con) Sir David Evennett Stuart Andrew Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Chris Elmore (Bexleyheath and Crayford) Hodge Hill) (Lab) (Con) Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Chris Elmore Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) Stuart Andrew Isleworth) (Lab) (Con) Amy Callaghan (East Patrick Grady Marion Fellows (Motherwell Patrick Grady Dunbartonshire) (SNP) and Wishaw) (SNP) Sir William Cash (Stone) Stuart Andrew Margaret Ferrier (Rutherglen Jonathan Edwards (Con) and Hamilton West) (Ind) 297 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote3 NOVEMBER 2020 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 298

Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy

Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen Patrick Grady Christine Jardine (Edinburgh Wendy Chamberlain South) (SNP) West) (LD) Vicky Foxcroft (Lewisham, Chris Elmore Mr Ranil Jayawardena (North Stuart Andrew Deptford) (Lab) East Hampshire) (Con) Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh Stuart Andrew Dame Diana Johnson Chris Elmore and Wickford) (Con) (Kingston upon Hull North) George Freeman (Mid Bim Afolami (Lab) Norfolk) (Con) Gerald Jones (Merthyr Tydfil Chris Elmore Marcus Fysh (Yeovil) (Con) Craig Mackinlay and Rhymney) (Lab) Sir Roger Gale (North Caroline Nokes Mike Kane (Wythenshawe Chris Elmore Thanet) (Con) and Sale East) (Lab) Ms Nusrat Ghani (Wealden) Steve Baker Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Stuart Andrew (Con) Melton) (Con) Preet Kaur Gill (Birmingham, Chris Elmore Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Chris Elmore Edgbaston) (Lab/Co-op) Eccles South) (Lab) Dame Cheryl Gillan Stuart Andrew Afzal Khan (Manchester, Chris Elmore (Chesham and Amersham) Gorton) (Lab) (Con) Sir Greg Knight (East Stuart Andrew Mary Glindon (North Chris Elmore Yorkshire) (Con) Tyneside) (Lab) Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab) Kate Osborne Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone Stuart Andrew Chris Law (Dundee West) Patrick Grady and The Weald) (Con) (SNP) Peter Grant (Glenrothes) Patrick Grady Brandon Lewis (Great Stuart Andrew (SNP) Yarmouth) (Con) Margaret Greenwood (Wirral Chris Elmore Clive Lewis (Norwich South) Lloyd Russell-Moyle West) (Lab) (Lab) Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Chris Elmore Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger Stuart Andrew Reddish) (Lab) (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con) Robert Halfon (Harlow) Julie Marson (Con) Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab) Chris Elmore Fabian Hamilton (Leeds Chris Elmore Mr Jonathan Lord (Woking) Stuart Andrew North East) (Lab) (Con) Claire Hanna (Belfast South) Ben Lake Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Bell Ribeiro-Addy (SDLP) Pavilion) (Green) Neil Hanvey (Kirkcaldy and Patrick Grady Holly Lynch (Halifax) (Lab) Chris Elmore Cowdenbeath) (SNP) Kenny MacAskill (East Patrick Grady Lothian) (SNP) Ms Harriet Harman Chris Elmore (Camberwell and Peckham) Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na Patrick Grady (Lab) h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Trudy Harrison (Copeland) Stuart Andrew Karl McCartney (Lincoln) Stuart Andrew (Con) (Con) Sir Oliver Heald (North East Stuart Andrew John McDonnell (Hayes and Zarah Sultana Hertfordshire) (Con) Harlington) (Lab) Sir Mark Hendrick (Preston) Chris Elmore Conor McGinn (St Helens Chris Elmore (Lab/Co-op) North) (Lab) Drew Hendry (Inverness, Patrick Grady Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow Patrick Grady Nairn, Badenoch and North East) (SNP) Strathspey) (SNP) John Mc Nally (Falkirk) Patrick Grady Simon Hoare (North Dorset) Fay Jones (SNP) (Con) Khalid Mahmood Chris Elmore Dame Margaret Hodge Chris Elmore (Birmingham, Perry Barr) (Barking) (Lab) (Lab) Mrs Sharon Hodgson Chris Elmore Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab) Kate Osborne (Washington and Sunderland Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con) Stuart Andrew West) (Lab) Stephen Metcalfe (South Stuart Andrew Kate Hollern (Blackburn) Chris Elmore Basildon and East Thurrock) (Lab) (Con) Adam Holloway (Gravesham) Maria Caulfield Carol Monaghan (Glasgow Patrick Grady (Con) North West) Sir George Howarth Chris Elmore Jessica Morden (Newport Chris Elmore (Knowsley) (Lab) East) (Lab) Dr Neil Hudson (Penrith and Stuart Andrew Anne Marie Morris (Newton Stuart Andrew The Border) (Con) Abbot) (Con) Imran Hussain (Bradford Judith Cummins David Morris (Morecambe Stuart Andrew East) (Lab) and Lunesdale) (Con) 299 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote3 NOVEMBER 2020 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 300

Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy

Ian Murray (Edinburgh Chris Elmore Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP) Patrick Grady South) (Lab) Chloe Smith (Norwich North) Stuart Andrew James Murray (Ealing North) Chris Elmore (Con) (Lab/Co-op) Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con) Stuart Andrew John Nicolson (Ochil and Patrick Grady Jeff Smith (Manchester Chris Elmore South Perthshire) (SNP) Withington) (Lab) Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) Rebecca Harris Royston Smith Robert Courts (Con) (Southampton, Itchen) (Con) Abena Oppong-Asare (Erith Chris Elmore Chris Stephens (Glasgow Patrick Grady and Thamesmead) (Lab) South West) (SNP) Kate Osamor (Jarrow) Nadia Whittome Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) Stuart Andrew Mr Owen Paterson (North Stuart Andrew (Con) Shropshire) (Con) Jamie Stone (Caithness, Wendy Chamberlain Stephanie Peacock (Barnsley Chris Elmore Sutherland and Easter Ross) East) (Lab) (LD) Sir Mike Penning (Hemel Stuart Andrew Sir Gary Streeter (South West Stuart Andrew Hempstead) (Con) Devon) (Con) Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Chris Elmore Mel Stride (Central Devon) Stuart Andrew Yardley) (Con) Dr Dan Poulter (Central Peter Aldous Julian Sturdy (York Outer) Stuart Andrew Suffolk and North Ipswich) (Con) (Con) Kelly Tolhurst (Rochester and Stuart Andrew Lucy Powell (Manchester Chris Elmore Strood) (Con) Central) (Lab/Co-op) Jon Trickett (Hemsworth) Dawn Butler Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton Chris Elmore (Lab) South East) (Lab) Karl Turner (Kingston upon Chris Elmore Christina Rees (Neath) Chris Elmore Hull East) (Lab) Ellie Reeves (Lewisham West Chris Elmore Liz Twist (Blaydon) (Lab) Chris Elmore and Penge) (Lab) David Warburton (Somerton Stuart Andrew Dean Russell (Watford) (Con) Stuart Andrew and Frome) (Con) Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Ben Lake Mrs Heather Wheeler (South Stuart Andrew Meirionnydd) (PC) Derbyshire) (Con) Selaine Saxby (North Devon) Stuart Andrew Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Patrick Grady (Con) Ayrshire) (SNP) Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Chris Elmore Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC) Ben Lake Southall) (Lab) Beth Winter (Cynon Valley) Rachel Hopkins Mr Barry Sheerman Chris Elmore (Lab) (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op) Pete Wishart (Perth and Patrick Grady Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh Patrick Grady North Perthshire) (SNP) East) (SNP) Mohammad Yasin (Bedford) Chris Elmore David Simmonds (Ruislip, Mike Freer (Lab) Northwood and Pinner) (Con) 41WH 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Rohingya Humanitarian Crisis: 42WH Covid-19 also have refugee crises in many countries, including Westminster Hall Venezuela, Lebanon, Syria, Libya, South Sudan and Palestine. There is also the situation in Colombia, which Tuesday 3 November 2020 has the second largest number of internally displaced people in the world. We are an advanced democratic society, and we have [DAME ROSIE WINTERTON in the Chair] a duty to acknowledge and highlight the plight of refugees, wherever they are. We must reach out the hand Rohingya Humanitarian Crisis: Covid-19 of humanity towards those who have gone through trauma in their lives that we hope we never have to go [Relevant Documents: First Report of the International through ourselves. It should be a source of deep shame Development Committee of Session 2019-21, Humanitarian that many vulnerable people who flee from their home crises monitoring: the Rohingya, HC 259; and the country experience further breaches of their human Government response, HC 658 Oral evidence taken before rights, either as a consequence of having to live indefinitely the International Development Committee, on 15 September, in refugee camps that are in very poor condition or as a on Humanitarian crises monitoring: impact of coronavirus, consequence of being turned away at borders, which HC 292.] often is in contravention of international refugee law. Human rights debates carry a danger of assuming 9.40 am that everything that we do is okay and that everything Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Ind): I beg to that everybody else does might not be. We need to be move, careful and at times quite self-critical. Last month, it That this House has considered the Rohingya humanitarian came to light that a number of asylum seekers are being crisis and the effects of the covid-19 pandemic. housed in an Army barracks in west Wales and that the Madam Deputy Speaker, I am delighted to serve as search was on for a possible location for asylum processing you chair this morning’s discussion of the Rohingya centres elsewhere, off the shores of this country. crisis. I thank the hon. Member for Worthing West We need to reflect for a moment on what it is like to (Sir Peter Bottomley) for supporting the application for be a refugee. Indeed, I raised these matters in a letter to this debate and I thank the Backbench Business Committee the Home Secretary, saying that we did not want to see for granting us time for it. a repeat of the horrors of the Windrush scandal. So, it is also worth reflecting on the number of people in our Before I say anything more, I think we should all country and in our communities who started out in this reflect for a moment on the terrible events in Vienna country as refugees but have gone on to make the most last night—the shooting and killing of people in an amazing contribution to our society—in science, event based on horror and hatred, which have no place engineering, education, transport and so many other anywhere in the world. areas—in the same way that many black and minority ethnic workers have made an incredible contribution to Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con): As chair our national health service, particularly during the current of the all-party group on British-Austrian relations, I crisis. have sent a message to His Excellency the Ambassador, I say that because I think we should set this debate Michael Zimmermann, saying that we extend our sympathy about the Rohingya crisis in the context of the refugee to all those who are affected. Perhaps I could add that crisis around the world. There are many refugee crises, no one should judge Muslims by what one or two some of which we hear more about than others. Despite people do, in the same way that we should not judge their being one of the largest and fastest growing groups Christians by what was done in Bosnia and Herzegovina of refugees in the world today, the Rohingya crisis does or Catholics by what the IRA has done. not get the coverage or publicity that it deserves. More than 1 million Rohingya refugees have been forced to Jeremy Corbyn: I thank the hon. Member for that leave their country. intervention. I absolutely agree with him and I am Myanmar, formerly known as Burma, was colonised pleased that, as chair of the all-party group on British- by Britain in 1885 and finally achieved its independence Austrian relations, he has sent that message; indeed, I in 1948, after the second world war and slightly after sent a message to the same effect last night to the India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka had achieved their Socialists, Democrats and Greens group of the Council independence. It had to deal with the disastrous of Europe. He is also quite right that we should never repercussions of colonialism, including extreme nationalist judge people by their faith; we should judge people by tendencies, which had been exacerbated and, indeed, what they do. And what was done last night in Vienna is exploited during the second world war. There were absolutely disgraceful—whether it is done against Jewish deep-rooted fears in the country that it would once people, against Muslim people, or against anybody else, again fall under non-Burmese control. As a result, such action is wrong, wherever it happens. I am sure foreigners residing in Myanmar today are often seen, that we are all agreed on that. sadly, as remnants and reminders of a colonial period. Today, 65 million people across the world are either That is one of the issues that must be addressed. refugees or internally displaced persons, which is the In Myanmar, it is claimed that the Rohingya migrated largest ever number in recorded history, and the situation to Rakhine state from Bengal during and after the is getting worse as global inequality becomes greater British colonial era of 1824 to 1948. However, many and the climate emergency leads to more climate refugees. experts believe that the Rohingya people have been When we see what is happening in north Africa, in living in Rakhine state since at least the 15th century particular Mali and Burkina Faso, we know that the and possibly as early as the 7th century. Claims that the number of refugees is likely to increase in the future. We Rohingya are recent immigrants from Bangladesh are 43WH Rohingya Humanitarian Crisis: 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Rohingya Humanitarian Crisis: 44WH Covid-19 Covid-19 [Jeremy Corbyn] It is now estimated that 1.2 million refugees are in Bangladesh, 100,000 in Malaysia, 200,000 in Pakistan simply untrue. I say that because, when we talk about and—the figures are disputed—between 100,000 and the plight of the Rohingya, it is important to draw 200,000 in India. The scale of this humanitarian crisis is attention to two major Acts introduced by the Myanmar unprecedented in that part of the world. While Bangladesh Government that have infringed their rights. The first is is hosting 1 million refugees, sadly, the Governments of the Emergency Immigration Act 1947, which required Thailand and Malaysia have been extremely hostile all citizens to carry an identity card. The Rohingya were towards Rohingya refugees trying to find somewhere ineligible for those cards; they were eligible only for the safe to survive. Every day, more vulnerable people arrive foreign registration card, which provided limited rights in Bangladesh with very little, if anything, and settle in and was meant for foreigners. Even then, few Rohingya overcrowded camps or extremely congested makeshift were able to secure a foreign registration card. Therefore, sites. It is a very difficult situation for all of them. the process of their exclusion from normal civil society The Government of Bangladesh, local charities and speeded up. volunteers from the UN and many non-governmental Secondly, in 2014, the Government conducted their organisations, to which I pay enormous tribute, are first census in 30 years. On the census form, there was working in overdrive to provide assistance. The UK no option to register as Rohingya. Therefore, the Rohingya Government have provided significant amounts of aid, had to register as Bengali, effectively forcing them to which is very welcome, and I look forward to the admit what the Government had claimed all along—that Minister telling us what future aid and guarantees for they were immigrants to the country, not citizens of the the future will be available for the refugee camps and country. They were then allowed to register as temporary organisations that are helping them. However, much citizens and receive a white card, which provided them more is urgently needed. The efforts must be scaled up with very limited rights.However,the Government revoked and expanded to receive and protect refugees and ensure that limited status in February 2015, which meant that they are provided with basic shelter and acceptable the Rohingya were not able to vote in the elections in living conditions. November of that year and have not been able to vote Apsana Begum (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): The or stand for election ever since. UN is seeking permission to conduct comprehensive We have a number of very serious issues relating to technical and protection assessments to evaluate the the role of the military in society. After independence, safety and sustainability of Bhasan Char. Does the hon. there was a series of elected Governments, but in 1962 a Gentleman agree that the UN must be allowed to coup placed the military in control of the Government. inspect Bhasan Char and that until then no relocations Although reforms have lessened their influence, the should take place? military continue to play a very prominent role in politics and life in the whole country. Jeremy Corbyn: My hon. Friend makes an important Early in the morning of 25 August 2017, the Arakan point, and I hope she will get an opportunity to catch Rohingya Salvation Army, known as ARSA—these are your eye, Madam Deputy Speaker, to make a longer a minority Muslim people from Myanmar—attacked a contribution. security post in northern Rakhine state. Nobody is According to UNICEF, an estimated 30% of children condoning that attack. Following the attack, the Myanmar living in the camps suffer from chronic malnutrition—one security forces, led by the army, attacked the Rohingya third of children suffering from malnutrition—and population across the whole of northern Rakhine state, 11% from acute malnutrition. A whole generation of driving more than 700,000 people—80% of the Rohingya children are growing up in their most important, formative who lived in the northern part of the state—into years without enough to eat, which will lead to stunted neighbouring Bangladesh. Let us just reflect on the growth and development and probably a much shorter figure there. As I said, there was an attack on a security life expectancy. There is not an overall food shortage in post and nobody is condoning that. The army responded the world; there is a problem of distributing food across by driving the entire population out of the country. the world. Again, while I am not critical of the UN or According to Amnesty International, the military-led aid agencies and what they are trying to achieve, resources operations in the wake of 25 August 2017 were far from are needed to feed those children. Imagine being in a necessary or proportionate in response to the threat refugee camp and unable to get enough food. Also, posed by ARSA. They amounted to an orchestrated sadly,there are reports of sexual abuse, human trafficking, campaign of murder, rape, torture and destruction of exploitation of children and violence against women villages and homes that was aimed at punishing the within these very overcrowded camps. Funding for Rohingya population in northern Rakhine state and education, food and to deal with gender-based violence driving them out of their country. Collective punishment is very important. I hope that Britain will continue to is illegal in all forms of international law, but that is work closely with the UN to ensure an effective exactly what the Rohingya people have had to suffer. implementation of the joint response plan for the Rohingya Four years after the Myanmar military unleashed a humanitarian crisis. wave of violence against the Rohingya civilians, killing All long-term problems are exacerbated by the threat thousands and burning entire villages to the ground, of covid-19. Cases have been confirmed among the millions of Rohingya are still displaced across the region. Rohingya and the International Rescue Committee has Anyone who has met anyone who has been in their advised that the camp is particularly vulnerable to virus village at night will have heard that when the army transmission due to an exceptionally high density— arrive, it drives people out, kills the men, rapes the 40,000 people per square kilometre are trying to survive women, drives those who have survived or managed to in those refugee camps. There is very poor sanitation, escape out of the country and then burns the village limited access to health care services and a high level of behind them. malnutrition. In the monsoon season, the heavy rainfall 45WH Rohingya Humanitarian Crisis: 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Rohingya Humanitarian Crisis: 46WH Covid-19 Covid-19 leads to flooding and further danger of terrible diseases The Foreign Secretary said recently: such as cholera breaking out as a result of inadequate “The Rohingya people have faced horrific brutality and were sanitation. forced to flee their homes in the worst circumstances imaginable. I am sad to say that there are serious concerns about We have taken action against the architects of this systemic the fencing erected around the camps, as it restricts the violence, including through sanctions and we will continue to Rohingya’s legitimate freedom of movement and access hold those responsible to account.” to services. The UK must urge the Bangladesh authorities I look forward to the Minister telling us how many to review urgently their approach to security. The issue other people may be subject to sanctions in the future, will not be solved by putting fences around civilians or depending on what happens to the Rohingya people. removing deported Rohingya from the camps along the border to an island in the Bay of Bengal—an island just Sir Peter Bottomley: I shall not be making a speech in above sea level with prison-type accommodation. The the debate, but I hope that those who are watching it island places them further from Myanmar with no will understand that we are concerned not just about access to a regular ferry service. It would be a place they the Rohingya and Myanmar. Yesterday in the House of would go to and possibly never return, which is an Lords Jammu and Kashmir was raised, as China and unacceptable step. The international community must the Uighur have been raised. It is not targeted: we have do all it can to ensure that that does not materialise. an aim to try to have justice for people. I refer those In looking at any refugee crisis, we must look first at watching the debate to the report by the United Nations the humanitarian needs of desperate people, and I have fact-finding mission on Myanmar that came out a year tried to outline those needs, but we must also look at ago, and the campaign material from the Burmese why they sought refuge in the first place and were forced Rohingya Organisation, the Burma Campaign UK and to make the desperate and dangerous step of at least Justice for the Rohingya, all of which illustrate some of trying to get away from being murdered or raped and the points that the right hon. Gentleman makes. having their villages destroyed. The Myanmar Government must take immediate steps to address the chronic situation, Jeremy Corbyn: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely including the 1982 citizenship law,and restore the Rohingya right. My speech is concentrating on the plight of the right to citizenship, a measure that was supported at the Rohingya people, but any other refugees should be 44th session of the United Nations Human Rights included in the issue, because if a country is to be at Council. The President of Myanmar, Aung San Suu peace with itself it has to be at peace with recognising Kyi, has issued a number of decrees following the the diversity—the linguistic and ethnic diversity—of all provisional measure to prevent genocide, from its people. If the army of the country, in this case the International Court of Justice. The Court said that Myanmar, attacks and drives one particular ethnic group the Rohingya remained at serious risk of that. Just get out of the country, who is next and what happens after that: the International Court of Justice said that the that? There has to be a process of reconciliation, as well Rohingya remained at serious risk of having genocide as support for the right of return and for people to be committed against them. able to live safely and securely in Rakhine state. It is time to translate those decrees fully into concrete actions. The fighting in Rakhine must end. Civilians The UK Government recently imposed sanctions must be protected. Evidence of serious violations must against two Myanmar military generals, which is an be preserved. I must say I find the actions and attitudes important symbolic measure, especially for the victims, of Aung San Suu Kyi perplexing. I am one of many but further and more meaningful action must be taken. people who marched around London in support of her, The UK Government should, for instance, prevent British asking that her house arrest be ended and that she be companies from trading with companies in Myanmar given the freedom to return to political open life, which connected with the military in any way. I look forward she did. She was elected and eventually became President. to the Minister explaining what the process is on that. So I should be grateful if the Minister would help us If we focus on just mineral rights exploration, such as and say what pressure is being put on Aung San Suu gas and oil offshore, we will find that many foreign Kyi, and whether the Government will consider their investors are competing to stay friendly with the Myanmar relationship with her in the future. It is extraordinary Government and that the UK is among the top investors. that someone who came to office on the basis that she We have to be careful here. If British companies are was a victim of human rights abuses seems to have a investing in exploiting oil, gas or any other natural blind spot where the rights of the Rohingya people are resources found there, they will find, not very far away, concerned, and is happy to promote a sort of supremacist the influence of the Myanmar military, which will be attitude over them. Unless that changes, their right of making a great deal of money out of that. They are the return becomes a bit of a pipe dream. ones who stand accused of the attacks and of killing so I do not know how long the crisis will go on, but I do many Rohingya people in Rakhine state. We should not want to say that children now being born, or living, have nothing to do with that. We should be strong in those refugee camps in Bangladesh have no future enough to say, “We are not prepared to be involved with other than to be refugees in a camp in Bangladesh for a military, a Government or companies that have paid decades to come. Therein lie illness, mental health problems for or supported those attacks in any way.” When the and anger—and a breeding ground for the terrorists of Minister replies,can he explain what exactly the relationship the future because they are so angry. I hope that our with Myanmar’s military is at present? We need to know Government will do all they can to bring about a that we are not supplying any weapons to it or providing peaceful solution to their plight and engage with the any training facilities for it, and that we are resolute in UN and the Governments of Bangladesh and Myanmar, our determination to protect the Rohingya and other to stress the importance of including the Rohingya in minorities from future attacks, as the hon. Member for all discussions for the future. Worthing West correctly pointed out. 47WH Rohingya Humanitarian Crisis: 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Rohingya Humanitarian Crisis: 48WH Covid-19 Covid-19 [Jeremy Corbyn] Myanmar destroyed entire Rohingya Muslim villages. UN investigators say that as many as 10,000 people It is extremely concerning and unethical that the UK were killed, and more than 730,000 Rohingya fled the has apparently obtained large quantities of personal massacre for Bangladesh. The UN called it “a textbook protective equipment from Myanmar, a country where …ethniccleansing.”AccordingtoMédecinsSansFrontières, the Government are accused of ethnic cleansing by the at least 6,700 Rohingya, including at least 730 children UN and genocide by other human rights organisations. under the age of five, were killed in the month after the It is simply unacceptable that we purchase equipment to violence broke out. About 288 villages were partially or save lives in the UK from a country that has taken so totally destroyed by fire in the north of Rakhine state many. We can and should find other sources of PPE. after August 2017, according to analysis of state imagery We are going to enter a second lockdown now. Can the by Human Rights Watch. Minister guarantee that the Government will not purchase Just today, an independent human rights expert called any more PPE from Myanmar? on the Government and the military in Myanmar to I close by saying that the Rohingya people were stop persecuting Opposition supporters, including discriminated against and manipulated during the colonial journalists and student protestors, ahead of the elections era, have been brutally treated by the Myanmar military next week. Thomas Andrews, UN special rapporteur on for many decades and are now desperate in refugee the situation of human rights in Myanmar, said: camps with unsanitary, unsafe and dangerous conditions. “But this cannot happen as long as it is enforcing laws that The world has to wake up. We cannot allow a million undermine the very lifeblood of democracy, and the right to vote people to be forgotten in that way. The world needs to is denied based on race, ethnicity of religion as it is with the do two things: first, to provide the support necessary for Rohingya.” those people to survive and, secondly, to apply political Canada and the Netherlands have supported the case pressure to the Government of Myanmar so that they brought to the International Court of Justice by Gambia, will allow people to return safely and to live safely and alleging that Myanmar’s atrocities against the Rohingya securely in the country and place of their birth. in Rakhine state violate various provisions of the convention on the prevention and punishment of the crime of 10.3 am genocide. Can the Minister tell us any more about that and about the role that the UK could play in that Apsana Begum (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): It is a regard? pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Madam Deputy Speaker. I congratulate my right hon. Friend In conclusion, I express my solidarity with all people the Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) on around the world who are victims of political human securing this important debate and drawing attention to rights abuses. Ultimately, it is the duty of all of us to do the plight of Rohingya refugees. He eloquently made everything we can to uphold fundamental human rights, the case today that all of us must do more to support as laid out by the universal declaration of human rights. the Rohingya people. 10.7 am People forced by wars and persecution to flee their homes frequently embark on risky journeys in many Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): It is a pleasure to parts of the world. They should find safety and support see you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I was surprised when and not be exposed to more danger and hardship. I walked through the door. I had to screw up my eyes However, there are approximately 1 million Rohingya and say, “My goodness, you have come back to us.” refugees in Bangladesh, a country already facing significant Thank you very much. It is lovely to see you. challenges, not least during this world pandemic. Many I thank the right hon. Member for Islington North people are still living below the poverty line and feel (Jeremy Corbyn) and the hon. Member for Worthing that they have no other choice but to go out and earn West (Sir Peter Bottomley) for setting the scene, which their living despite the risk of getting infected by the was admirably done. One of the first debates the right virus. Covid-19 has exacerbated existing problems for hon. Gentleman and I had in Westminster Hall was on the Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh, including by human rights, although not the Rohingya. He introduced increasing gender-based violence, and the lack of adequate the debate, and I was there to support him. It is good sanitation and healthcare and the crowded conditions that we are on the same page on this issue, as we often make distancing impossible. have been and probably always will be when it comes to Bangladesh should not be left alone with the human rights across the world. humanitarian crisis of the Rohingya refugees, and the The suffering that the Rohingya refugees have had to international community should increase its economic endure is scarcely imaginable. Everything that right support accordingly. What steps is the Minister taking hon. and hon. Members have said, and will say after to work with the Government of Bangladesh to encourage me, encapsulates the fact that the Rohingya have survived efforts to designate critical gender-based violence services horrifying violence, been driven from their homes and as essential and to ensure that there is a continuity of been forced to live in squalid conditions in refugee gender-based violence service provision for the Rohingya camps. People could be forgiven for thinking that things throughout the covid-19 response? Given the inescapable could not get any worse, and yet here we are with a reality that many refugees will remain in Bangladesh for global pandemic, adding still more to their burden. years to come, what steps are the Government taking to Our duty in this House is to speak up for those who support the expansion of educational training and support do not have a voice. Maybe we will never meet them, but in refugee camps? we can familiarise ourselves with their circumstances My right hon. Friend the Member for Islington North and conditions and try to help them. I look forward to is correct in arguing that it is critical to address the root the Minister’s response, as we often do, and today we of the problem. Three years ago a military operation in have three things to ask of him. 49WH Rohingya Humanitarian Crisis: 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Rohingya Humanitarian Crisis: 50WH Covid-19 Covid-19 I am pleased to see the shadow Minister, the hon. Jim Shannon: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Preet Kaur Gill), intervention. I thank him for his fantastic, wise words, in her place. She and I are good friends, and I look for the debate and for his significant contribution to it. forward to her contribution, as well as that of the hon. Hopefully, the Minister can take that into account as Member for East Renfrewshire (Kirsten Oswald), the well. spokesperson for the Scottish National party. The Rohingya refugees have experienced even more Fortunately, data for the Rohingya refugee camps suffering due to covid-19, and they remain in an extremely currently shows that the number of cases of covid-19 is precarious position. Yet, despite their harrowing plight, lower than anticipated, although I question where that the international community and the UK Government data came from. The restrictions put in place on have not done anywhere near everything in their power humanitarian agencies by the Bangladeshi Government to support these persecuted people. I say that kindly to isolate Rohingya refugees are having a devastating and respectfully,because I understand that the Government effect, and I would suggest that the data is not available, are doing their best, but I urge them to perhaps do more. primarily because of the restrictions in place.The restrictions placed on organisations permit them to do only certain I welcome the sanctions that Her Majesty’sGovernment types of work or to do it only in a certain way, and they have put on Burmese military leaders responsible for are allowed into the camps only for a set number of violence against the Rohingya, but much more needs to hours—in some cases, they are not allowed in at all. If be done. I have three asks of the Minister. First, the the data cannot be collected, any data will be suspect British Government should immediately take action to and will not be correct. prevent British companies from doing any form of The report by the ACAPS and the International business with the Burmese military and with companies Organisation for Migration stated that the “drastic owned and controlled by the military. I say that because, reduction” in humanitarian access and the according to Burma Campaign UK, the Burmese military earns hundreds of millions of dollars a year through its “decreased ability to implement critical services has led to an vast range of military-owned companies. I always think increase in unmet needs. Many Rohingya have been unable to fortify their homes against rain and windstorms because shelter-related that the best way to hurt someone is to hurt them in service restrictions meant that monsoon preparedness activities their pocket, because that seems to have the desired were not completed… Additionally, common coping mechanisms, effect. I am sure the Minister will agree that no British such as increasing debt, borrowing assistance from family or company should be involved in business that funds neighbours… were reported as less effective than in previous genocide. I urge him and our Government to take periods, more difficult to access, or unavailable because of the action to prevent that. changes due to COVID-19. As a result, many families feel desperate and uncertain about their future.” Secondly, I acknowledge that the Bangladeshi The impact of these restrictions has been so great that, Government have done much, but I say again that there in July, many Rohingya perceived the impact of covid-19 must be careful diplomatic engagement with them about containment measures as being a greater threat to their the restrictions on humanitarian assistance to refugees. overall wellbeing than covid-19 itself. We cannot ignore Clearly, there are obstructions that should not be there. that. Hopefully, the Minister will be able to alleviate An urgent revision of the restrictions is required to some of our fears for the Rohingya people at this time allow humanitarian agencies to increase the assistance and tell us where they stand. they provide, especially shelter assistance, and much-needed maintenance and repair of public facilities such as Many acknowledge the risk of covid-19, but it is toilets must be carried out. Those are the basics, but secondary to more immediate risks, such as shelters they are really important. If we want to address covid-19, collapsing. People must also have safe and accessible we have to do that as well. Health and safety is of toilets and be able to feed their families. These myriad course of the utmost concern, but the Bangladeshi issues come upon people quickly, and they are bread- authorities must be convinced that it is not in their and-butter issues. Those of us that have a comparatively interest to abandon the Rohingya refugees to the virus, good life here, with access to such things, may take them because that will lead to a hotspot from which the virus for granted, but these people do not, and we want to see can spread to other parts of the country, so, again, what is happening. The Government have taken steps, diplomatic engagement is needed. and I always acknowledge that, because it is fair to give them credit for that, but perhaps the Minister can give Thirdly and finally, I urge Her Majesty’s Government us an idea of what, specifically, has been done for the to join the genocide case at the International Court of Rohingya, in the precarious conditions and circumstances Justice. Gambia has brought a case at the ICJ claiming they face. that Burma is in breach of the genocide convention. It is supported by 56 other members of the Organisation Sir Peter Bottomley: I am grateful for what the hon. of Islamic Cooperation, and by the Maldives, Canada Gentleman says. I am reminded that the problems of and the Netherlands. We cannot ignore the volume of Burma, or Myanmar, did not start with the Rohingya. voices from those 59 countries from across the world, When John Bercow was chair of the all-party parliamentary which are speaking up and which see a breach of the group on democracy in Burma, he and Baroness Cox genocide convention. Why have the British Government went to see what was happening to the Chin people, thus far refused to join? I ask the Minister to look at who faced appalling behaviour in 2007. On the point that and to perhaps give us an answer today. I hope he the hon. Gentleman makes about covid, others may will push for the UK to join that case, or at least explain want to look at the report by ActionAid UK on its to this House why they have refused to do so. We see the work with women, who are carrying the major burden genocide against the Rohingya, and it hurts our hearts of the covid crisis in Myanmar and in the Cox’s Bazar to think of these things—the powerful violence and refugee camps. brutality,and the conditions that those people are living in. 51WH Rohingya Humanitarian Crisis: 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Rohingya Humanitarian Crisis: 52WH Covid-19 Covid-19 [Jim Shannon] although we have used only 4,000. Does the hon. Lady think it might be a good idea to send some of those We cannot allow such unspeakable persecution to go surplus ventilators to help the Rohingya? unchallenged. A failure to take the actions I have outlined will only enhance the sense of impunity enjoyed by the Kirsten Oswald: Thinking broadly about the needs of military and will encourage it to commit further human the people in this perilous situation is vital, so I am rights abuses. If we do not do something hard about interested in hearing the Minister’s thoughts about the this issue, it will continue. I say this very gently: how can practicality of the hon. Gentleman’s suggestion. we, and I say “we” collectively, sleep at night knowing The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees that we have made a few speeches—yes, it is great to reports that covid-19 is deepening the marginalisation make speeches—but have not done everything we could and exclusion of the Rohingya, who are already in such when crimes against humanity, if not genocide, have a perilous situation. That seems self-evident to us, but it arisen during our lifetime? I urge Her Majesty’sGovernment bears reflecting upon. Once the Bangladeshi Government to take the three actions I have outlined, and I hope the announced a nationwide lockdown on 25 March, every Minister will be so kind as to keep me and others aid agency worker was required to vacate Cox’s Bazar, informed about progress on them. which has had far-reaching impacts, further reducing access to education, safeguarding and mental health 10.17 am support. We have already heard about the vulnerability Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP): It is a of children to exploitation, trafficking and abuse increasing pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Madam because of this. Save the Children reports that almost Deputy Speaker. The previous speakers have been crystal 45% of the refugee population are not getting enough clear about the urgent nature of the situation. If it was daily nutrition, which of course puts children at higher not clear to us or pressing enough previously—obviously, risk of worse outcomes from covid-19. it should have been—the covid-19 pandemic and the Worryingly, aid groups in Bangladesh have reported a terrible price that it has wrought, especially among the rise in anti-Rohingya hate speech and racism, and rapidly most vulnerable, has confirmed once and for all that life deteriorating dynamics between the two communities—a in a refugee camp should never be considered an acceptable particularly difficult situation. A recent report on the long-term plan. gendered impact of covid-19 on Rohingya communities Nobody would argue that the Rohingya community also reports increases in forced marriages, child marriages, is not suffering disproportionately from this terrible gender-based violence, transphobic violence, violence virus. In fact, as far as we know—the hon. Member for against people with disabilities and violence against Strangford (Jim Shannon) made a sensible point about female sex workers as the presence of camp authorities data—the death rate from covid-19 among the Rohingya has fallen away, so the people on the margins already are refugees is 8%, compared with 2% for the Bangladeshi increasingly and dangerously further marginalised. host community. Their situation, even on the basis of Human Rights Watch also reported that, in Rakhine those figures, means a huge difference in outcome, in state camps and villages, 70% of children are not attending terms of life and death. school at all. To compound that—if things were not Amnesty International has spoken about a dangerous difficult enough—in May this year, more than lack of access to even basic information. Mobile and 100,000 refugees were affected by heavy rains, monsoons internet services for the Rohingya were restored only and landslides because of Cyclone Amphan, which in late August, and blackouts remain in Rakhine destroyed shelters, washed away crops and further increased state. This is a hard time for those of us who are able to disease. Those multifaceted threats faced by the Rohingya communicate and seek out potentially life-saving are not going away during the pandemic, they are information, but what about people who cannot? getting worse. It is vital that the UK Government are A huge issue is the inability to practise preventive aware of and focused on that and continue to provide measures such as frequent hand-washing in overcrowded sustained financial support. With that in mind, it is and unsanitary conditions.Werightly place much emphasis deeply concerning that the UK Government confirmed on the importance of hand-washing, but when we do so on 23 July this year that they will slash international aid we are supposing that it is even an option. We all keep spending by £2.9 billion across the board, reportedly ourselves socially distant wherever we can, but with the reallocating fund towards countries with which we have population density in Cox’s Bazar refugee camp, for future trading prospects. instance, social distancing is almost impossible. In fact, There is absolutely no doubt that 2020 has seen Relief International Cox’s Bazar programme director violence against the remaining Rohingya in Myanmar has described the situation there as a “ticking time escalate once again. The situation has taken on an bomb”. increased complexity.While the international community Existing healthcare facilities are woefully inadequate remains understandably hyper-focused on addressing to handle a severe crisis such as this: in the whole of the virus domestically and on their economic situations, Cox’s Bazar, there are only two ventilators. We already the violence and persecution that the Rohingya people know that Bangladesh has one doctor for every face has not stopped, despite the International Court of 2,000 people, compared with one doctor for every Justice ordering Myanmar’sleadership to take all measures 350 people in the UK. There is a woeful shortage of within their power to stop the killing or harming of the PPE, even before the other critical issues in purchasing Rohingya people, as set out under article 2 of the PPE that we heard about from other Members. genocide convention. Jim Shannon: Yesterday, the Prime Minister—I More children were maimed in the first three months think; it may have been someone else—referred to of this year in Myanmar than in the whole of 2019, 90,000 ventilators being secured for the United Kingdom, according to Save the Children, while 19,000 Rohingya 53WH Rohingya Humanitarian Crisis: 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Rohingya Humanitarian Crisis: 54WH Covid-19 Covid-19 people fled their homes in the Kyauktaw township in calls from my hon. Friend the Member for Stirling Myanmar between the end of August and the beginning (Alyn Smith). That is critical because if these cross-Whitehall of September. Despite the International Court of Justice’s prediction and prevention frameworks are left out of ordering the Tatmadaw not to destroy evidence of crimes, the upcoming integrated review, that will represent a new UN satellite images show that the military has body blow to all those who wish to see the UK Government bulldozed the ruins of Kan Kya—just one example of play a greater role in ensuring that all possible steps are the almost 400 Rohingya villages destroyed by the Myanmar taken at each stage to prevent mass atrocities from military in 2017 as part of a wider cover-up. Overall it happening, which is surely what we all want. could not be a more dangerous situation and of course, To conclude, as the Myanmar genocide against the if continued violence in Rakhine state makes repatriation Rohingya shows few signs of relenting, surely such a less viable as time goes on, it grows more perilous. strategy could not be more pressing. I would encourage International Rescue Committee figures show that the Minister to give some thought to that as part of the only 4% of the Rohingya in Cox’s Bazar have actually bigger picture in how we support and deal with the been granted refugee status and that means for almost perilous and terrible situation facing the Rohingya people. all of them that services and employment cannot be sought in Bangladesh. It is important that in the long run, the international community makes an active and 10.28 am focused effort to help resettle Rohingya people permanently Preet Kaur Gill (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab/Co-op): in Bangladesh or in third countries, as seen with other It is a honour to serve with you in the Chair, Madam refugee groups such as the Lhotshampa refugees in Deputy Speaker. I want to thank the right hon. Member Nepal. for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) and the hon. Member It has been evident since the covid crisis began that for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley) for securing there has been an increase in the number of Rohingya this important debate. I also want to thank my hon. people moving from both Bangladesh and Myanmar to Friend the Member for Bolton South East (Yasmin Malaysia and other countries in south-east Asia, largely Qureshi) and her staff who have been leading on this on boats that are not fit for that purpose. Myanmar work in the shadow development team. I am sure that I must undoubtedly address the root cause of the issue of echo the thoughts of the whole House when I say that statelessness of the Rohingya if the plight of those boat we hope she is able to return to Parliament as soon as people is to be resolved. possible. Amnesty International has warned that, The contributions today have been thoughtful and well informed, and I thank all those who have taken “Regional governments cannot let their seas become graveyards.” part and especially the organisations who work on these The SNP stands by calls from Amnesty International to issues on a daily basis and have provided vital briefings. allow safe disembarkation and for the Association of I also want to welcome the return of debates in Westminster Southeast Asian Nations members to urgently agree Hall as a vital means for us as Members of Parliament emergency measures to prevent further humanitarian in the UK to raise issues of global importance, and I crisis. hope we find safe ways to continue them during the Bangladesh has built housing for 100,000 people—we upcoming restrictions. have heard about this from the hon. Member for Poplar My right hon. Friend the Member for Islington North and Limehouse (Apsana Begum)—on the remote silt made a powerful speech reminding us of those fleeing island of Bhasan Char, with plans to relocate some of their homes, those internally displaced, and those living the Cox’s Bazar residents there. There are concerning in refugee camps,which have become a long-term placement reports emerging of Bangladeshi military officers beating for so many. He rightly says that the plight of refugees refugees, including children, who are protesting their seldom gets the coverage it deserves. detention on the island. An Amnesty International report alleges that sexual assaults have taken place against Rohingya women on the island. It is critical that [DEREK TWIGG in the Chair] the UK Government increase international pressure to allow UN experts to conduct an independent assessment My hon. Friend the Member for Poplar and Limehouse of the island to ensure that any relocation there is (Apsana Begum) talked about gender-based violence, voluntary and that it is truly habitable, which has been which is so important and something that I will touch questioned by the former UN special rapporteur for on in my speech, and the hon. Member for Strangford Myanmar, Yanghee Lee. Our global mechanisms for (Jim Shannon) reminded us of the impact of covid on accountability and the protection of human rights have refugees, who are already facing very difficult and, in clearly failed the Rohingya people so far, and it is some cases, inhumane situations. I thank him for his essential that we have a renewed focus on not allowing contribution, for raising the ICJ case on genocide brought that to continue. by The Gambia, and for challenging us all to speak out It is disappointing that the UK Government have still on crimes against humanity. not heeded the repeated calls that my colleagues have Since the eruption of violence in 2017, the Rohingya made about adopting a national strategy of atrocity have faced a series of life-threatening situations; covid-19 prevention; that is a gaping hole in UK foreign policy is just the most recent. Many have faced a lifetime of that should be urgently filled. My hon. Friends the discrimination, ethnic cleansing, enforced migration and Members for Glenrothes (Peter Grant) and for Lanark years in unsanitary and overcrowded camps. I commend and Hamilton East (Angela Crawley) have been focused the UK Government for the work that they have done on keeping this issue on the agenda. My hon. Friend the to provide some immediate humanitarian aid, but we all Member for Lanark and Hamilton East specifically know that there is much more that could be done in both pressed on this matter just weeks ago, and that echoed the short and long term to provide sustainable solutions. 55WH Rohingya Humanitarian Crisis: 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Rohingya Humanitarian Crisis: 56WH Covid-19 Covid-19 [Preet Kaur Gill] explain why that is the case, and what representations he has made to ensure that organisations with the It is a tragedy that despite its being more than three relevant skills and experience are able to access the area years since the mass exodus of the Rohingya, fleeing and provide necessary support and assistance? persecution and oppression in 2017, the international In such cramped conditions the spread of any virus is community is still having to provide them with immediate extremely likely and concerns have been raised about life-saving humanitarian support. That is the situation the accessibility of tests and the reliability of the covid-19 that we need to take a long, hard look at, to learn from data. With community transmission clearly apparent in mistakes and rectify them so that we are not here next the refugee population, the World Health Organisation year and the year after having the same debate. It is has emphasised that the highest priority must be increasing estimated that there are still 600,000 Rohingya people in the rate of testing. What steps are the Government Rakhine state. Of those, around 130,000 are confined to taking to encourage the end of internet restrictions and arbitrary and indefinite detention in heavily restrictive to support aid agencies and the Government of Bangladesh camps, the inhabitants of which face significant constraints to increase the availability of tests across the region? Is on healthcare, food and shelter, and growing restrictions UK aid funding to support the Rohingya in Bangladesh on humanitarian aid and freedom of movement. protected from any cuts to the Official Development A recently published report by Human Rights Watch Assistance budget both this year and next? documented Rohingya being killed simply for breaking Looking at the wider picture and moving beyond curfew, and where they are not in detention they face humanitarian assistance, it is vital to ensure that we do discrimination and segregation. As the covid-19 pandemic not have a lost generation in these camps. Over has further increased restrictions, the impact on minorities, 326,000 Rohingya refugee children are in dire need of and upcoming elections in which most Rohingya are education. Earlier this year UNICEF was co-ordinating prevented from voting or running for office, are likely to work by humanitarian agencies to introduce a pilot and further increase tensions. Can the Minister tell us what a new curriculum to 10,000 students. That pilot was progress he has made in lobbying the Myanmar placed on hold when education was categorised as Government to end the arbitrary detention of various non-life saving by the Government of Bangladesh’s ethnic minorities in what are, in effect, mass prison refugee relief and repatriation commissioner. That allowed camps, and what steps have the Government taken to learning centres to be closed to prevent the spread of ensure that those living in the camps have access to the virus. More than 6,000 learning spaces in Rohingya humanitarian assistance? refugee camps were closed, depriving 325,000 children For the hundreds of thousands who have fled that of the already woefully limited learning opportunities oppression to Bangladesh, the situation that they face is available to them. Failing to provide children with also of grave concern. Some 860,000 of those million educational rights traps them in a cycle of poverty and refugees currently reside in the Cox’s Bazar district in massively reduces any hope they may have of leading some of the most densely inhabited land in the world. independent, fulfilled lives. What steps are the Government The Kutupalong refugee settlement is the largest of its taking to improve educational access and quality in the kind, with more than 600,000 people living in an area of refugee camps? just 13 sq km. That number of refugees would be a Trafficking, child marriage and unpaid work that struggle for most countries, and for Bangladesh it has women and girls are forced to take have all increased been no different. The proposals to relocate the Rohingya during the pandemic. Vital services, including sexual to Bhasan Char, a flood-prone island several hundred and reproductive healthcare, have been cut, with gender- miles to the north in the Bay of Bengal, should be a based violence services deemed non-essential and either wake-up call for the international community. stopped or reduced at a time when the need for them is After being taken from a distressed vessel in May, acute and growing. Intimate partners perpetrate 81% of 306 refugees were transferred to Bhasan Char, which at gender-based violence in the Rohingya camps and 56% of the time was described as a temporary measure in the incidents are physical. As lockdowns have left refugees light of covid-19 restrictions on the mainland. Those confined to their homes, women have been afflicted by refugees are yet to be reunited with their families, and what the International Rescue Committee has termed there have been numerous reports of maltreatment, “a shadow pandemic” of gender-based violence. ranging from beatings to sexual violence. I welcome the What progress has been made in pushing the Government Minister’s comments in support of UN assessments, of Bangladesh to provide support to those suffering but can he confirm that it is his position that no further from gender-based violence and to empower women to relocation should take place until full assessments have take the key choices about how their communities move taken place, and will the Secretary of State push for that forward and receive aid? What specific actions is the with his Bangladeshi counterparts? Minister taking to ensure that tackling gender inequality Although temporarily lifted over the past few months, remains a key priority of the Foreign, Commonwealth it appears that internet and communications around and Development Office and in particular can he explain Cox’s Bazar remain limited and restricted. That drastically what steps he is taking with regard to the Rohingya to limits the ability of Rohingya and Bangladeshis to ensure that no one is left behind? obtain crucial information about the spread of covid-19. All those issues need to be tackled now. Supporting That is combined with inadequate sanitation, which efforts to slow the spread of covid-19 and overcome it makes even basic preventative measures such as hand must be only the tip of the iceberg of the support that washing inaccessible to so many. We have also received the Government must provide to tackle the wider social reports that a number of humanitarian organisations and economic damage that the virus is causing and are experiencing growing problems in acquiring visas exacerbating. While a safe, secure and voluntary return and work permits for international staff. Can the Minister to Myanmar must remain the objective, even if repatriation 57WH Rohingya Humanitarian Crisis: 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Rohingya Humanitarian Crisis: 58WH Covid-19 Covid-19 were to begin immediately, analysis by the United Nations and people of Bangladesh for hosting the refugees in Development Programme indicates that it could take Cox’s Bazar, a point already referred to by hon. Members between five and 13 years to achieve full repatriation. today. Our Government are in a unique position to display The UK will not sit, and has not sat, idly by. Very the moral duty and global leadership required to support recently, on 22 October, the United Kingdom co-hosted the Rohingya and to find ways to reach the solution of a donor conference on the Rohingya refugee crisis, a return on the Rohingya’s terms. But that cannot be alongside the US, the EU and the UNHCR. The conference done until the Myanmar Government end the arbitrary brought together leading donors, Rohingya-hosting detention of the Rohingya in camps and recognise them countries, international organisations and Rohingya as full citizens. Will the Minister update us on what representatives to keep attention on the crisis and steps he has taken to place diplomatic pressure on the demonstrate global commitment to the Rohingya people. Myanmar Government on both fronts? It also requires A total of $600 million in new and existing funding the United Kingdom to make sure that it is not supporting was announced at the conference. The United Kingdom actors who have supported, deliberately or otherwise, announced a further £37.5 million for the Rohingya the oppression of minority groups. Earlier this year, a refugees and local communities in Bangladesh. That journalist discovered that UK aid, through the CDC, brings the total UK commitment to the Rohingya in had been funding a telecoms company that censored Bangladesh thus far close to £300 million since 2017, websites under the orders of the Myanmar Government. when they had to flee their homes in Myanmar. That Does the Minister believe that that is a good investment makes us the second largest single donor globally in and, since then, what steps has he taken to ensure that assistance for the Rohingya people in Bangladesh. any and all investments made with UK taxpayers’ money achieve the highest standards in protecting human rights? Jim Shannon: That has been very helpful and underlines Until a safe return is possible, our Government need the commitment of Her Majesty’s Government, which to support local actors to mitigate the social and economic we appreciate. Is there any follow-up to monitor and impact of covid-19. These are difficult problems, but regulate where that money is going, to make sure that it they are not intractable and I hope to continue to work actually goes where it should, which is to help the with the Minister to make real and concrete progress for people? If people are living in dilapidated shelters and the Rohingya people. do not have toilet facilities, it makes me wonder where the money is going. 10.39 am Nigel Adams: It is absolutely crucial that we keep a The Minister for Asia (Nigel Adams): I will start, trail and manage to do due diligence before the money Mr Twigg, by thanking your predecessor in the Chair is handed over. We work with third parties—non- this morning for filling in. I am grateful to the right governmental organisations—to make sure that the money hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) and does get to the correct place, where it is needed most. my hon. Friend the Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter That is absolutely crucial when we are talking about Bottomley) for securing this important debate on what such huge sums and we need to monitor that constantly is a critical issue. I am also grateful to the Opposition as we deliver the cash. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely spokesman, the hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston right to raise that point. (Preet Kaur Gill), for the way in which we have collaborated The new funding announced last week will provide on many issues previously. Her concluding remarks improved education for more than 50,000 children and were testament to that work. I think we are all on the young people from the refugee and surrounding local same page on this issue, and my door at the FCDO is Bangladeshi community, something I know is close to very much open to right hon. and hon. Members to the heart of the hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston discuss this issue in more detail. We do not get a lot of and was also mentioned by the hon. Member for Poplar time to dig into all the issues and respond to all the and Limehouse (Apsana Begum). It will also provide questions, but I will do my best in the time available. food for 290,000 refugees for four months, and provide Sir Peter Bottomley: In thanking the Backbench Business cash and food assistance for 10,000 of the most vulnerable Committee for agreeing to the debate—it had originally members of the local economy to cope with the economic suggested that we might be able to have it in the Chamber, impact of the covid-19 crisis. but needs must in the circumstances—I would like to The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) put on the record that there would have been more rightly asked about humanitarian support and access to participation had my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe those services.Since March, we have committed £11 million (Mr Baker) not been due to take part in a Westminster to help prepare the refugees for the impact of covid-19. Hall debate later today, which I think is why he is not We have backed major deployments to Cox’s Bazar by speaking now. the UK emergency medical team to offer clinical expertise and set up isolation and treatment centres. United Nigel Adams: That is absolutely right. We did get Kingdom aid has created capacity for more than 600 beds advance notice that my hon. Friend the Member for for treating refugees and locals alike suffering from Wycombe (Mr Baker) would not be able to participate severe respiratory infections.More than 2,400 hand-washing in this morning’s debate. facilities have been added to the camps and public On 25 August, we marked three years of the Rohingya health information has been widely shared across crisis. The scale of the violence and discrimination communities. against the Rohingya is shocking. I pay tribute to the I had the pleasure of a virtual day visit to Myanmar, resilience, courage and tenacity of the Rohingya people where I saw at first hand—albeit over the internet—the in the face of extreme adversity, violence and oppression. work that our aid is delivering. If hon. Members would I also pay tribute to the generosity of the Government like to see what the UK is doing on the ground in these 59WH Rohingya Humanitarian Crisis: 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Rohingya Humanitarian Crisis: 60WH Covid-19 Covid-19 [Nigel Adams] for the most vulnerable patients. We are enabling the life-saving work that the crisis threatens to end. The camps in Myanmar and Bangladesh, I would be more importance of childhood immunisation and ensuring than happy to facilitate access to some of that information safe, high-quality maternal health services are also crucial, and perhaps give a presentation. Meanwhile, we have and our assistance is helping to deliver that. We are the continued to fund critical services, such as food, regular largest donor of water, hygiene and sanitation in IDP medical services, clean water, sanitation and protection. camps and displacement sites, which also supports work Thankfully, the number of confirmed covid cases in on protection and livelihoods. Most of the IDP camps the Bangladeshi camps is much lower than anticipated. are based in central Rakhine, and the UK funds all of The WHO and health agencies are seeking a better those camps. We also provide significant food support understanding of transmission levels and expanding the in northern Rakhine and have reached 200,000 people. reach of community health workers in the camps. Turning to the points raised by right hon. and hon. Members, we heard a thoughtful speech from the right Jim Shannon: The Minister is being generous and hon. Member for Islington North, who talked about the most gracious in giving way. My question is on the data. history of the Rohingya in Myanmar. We are clear that There is some concern among many hon. Members and the Rohingya who have lived in Myanmar for generations non-governmental organisations that the data was perhaps should be granted full citizenship and the associated not as accurate as it could be, simply because they had rights. We continue to call for the reform of the no access to it. Has he had a chance to look at that? 1982 citizenship law,which is deeply flawed. The Rohingya Nigel Adams: It is important that the data is accurate should not be excluded from Myanmar elections. On and I will follow that up with my team. I know that 23 June I spoke to the Myanmar Government and more work is being done on the ground to assess the raised my concerns in the strongest terms about how the data and ensure that the information gathered on Rohingya are denied citizenship and have been stripped transmission rates is as accurate as possible. Thus far, of the right to vote. thankfully, we are seeing a relatively low infection rate. The right hon. Member for Islington North also The hon. Gentleman is right to raise that point—collecting talked about sanctions and raised the point about companies information and getting an in-depth, detailed analysis is owned by the military. The hon. Member for Strangford crucial. also mentioned sanctions. It is clear that the Myanmar We have also continued to support local Bangladeshi military has vast and complex interests across the economy, communities, for example by bolstering the local economy on both an institutional and an individual level. The and giving 50,000 local Bangladeshi people access to military economic institutions grew up under sanctions safe water. However, we know that, three years on, this and are opaque. Thankfully, they have limited exposure is a protracted crisis and the Rohingya and local to the UK economy.However,we encourage UK companies communities will need long-term support—I know that to conduct thorough due diligence, but it will not be one or two colleagues have asked about that this morning. possible for credible investors to ensure that investments We are working with the Bangladeshi Government, the have no exposure whatever to the holding companies. United Nations and the World Bank on a development We have applied direct sanctions to the perpetrators of strategy for the Cox’s Bazar district. As hon. Members the atrocities against the Rohingya people. In total, will know, this was an incredibly poor area even before 16 people in Myanmar have been sanctioned. We will the influx of refugees, so we continue to encourage the continue to use this tool as a force for good in Myanmar. Bangladeshi Government to help the Rohingya lead We will also continue—one or two Members have raised safe and full lives by improving education and offering this—to review options for targeted actions that impact access to jobs. That is crucial if we are to prevent on the military but do not harm poor people in Myanmar. despair setting in. The right hon. Member for Islington North mentioned The Bangladeshi Government agreed earlier this year Aung San Suu Kyi. We are clear that the military are that Rohingya children could have access to the Myanmar responsible for the atrocities against the Rohingya. The curriculum. On the other side of the border, in conflict- President is the elected leader of Myanmar, and it is afflicted Rakhine state in Myanmar, the UK has provided vital that we continue to engage with her to help Myanmar over £44 million to all communities since 2017—the make progress on the very serious challenges that it hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston raised this faces. We also had a thoughtful speech from the hon. point. This includes over £25 million for Rohingya Member for Poplar and Limehouse. In an intervention communities for education, nutrition, water, health, on the right hon. Member for Islington North, she sanitation and general livelihood support. As I saw on mentioned the UN inspections at Bhasan Char in the my virtual visit in June, our partners are doing some Bay of Bengal, which was also mentioned by life-saving work. There are 128,000 Rohingya and the hon. Members for Birmingham, Edgbaston and for 88,000 ethnic Rakhine in internally displaced person East Renfrewshire (Kirsten Oswald). The inspection camps. Our priority is to reach those IDPs and the should happen urgently. There are 306 refugees on the conflict-affected populations. island. Full and detailed assessments are urgently needed Covid has only exacerbated the problems. The number to evaluate the situation on that island, which is something of covid cases is increasing across Rakhine state and we will continually support and call for. We continue to testing is not widespread in those camps or villages. The work with the Bangladeshi Government on that issue. Myanmar Government have implemented lockdowns The hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston also and curfews, the impact of which we are closely monitoring. mentioned, as did other Members, the ICJ case brought Weare also working closely with the Myanmar Ministry by The Gambia. We have publicly welcomed the case and of Health on equipping facilities, protecting health the ICJ’s provisional measures, and we continue to call workers, and reducing the cost of accessing healthcare on the Myanmar Government to abide by this ruling. 61WH Rohingya Humanitarian Crisis: 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Rohingya Humanitarian Crisis: 62WH Covid-19 Covid-19 The hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse mentioned 10.58 am education, as did the hon. Member for East Renfrewshire, and I agree that education and skills training are absolutely Jeremy Corbyn: Welcome to the Chair, Mr Twigg. I fundamental. Our latest funding of £37.5 million will do not know whether you can give us a little latitude support a safe return to quality education for those because we lost 10 minutes at the beginning of the people. She also mentioned gender-based violence, as debate, but we shall see what happens. did the hon. Members for East Renfrewshire and for I thank all Members for their contributions to this Birmingham, Edgbaston, and she was absolutely right incredibly well-informed, serious and intelligent debate. to do so. This is a priority area, and we are prioritising I think that we have managed to send out a message the protection and safeguarding of women and girls in from this House around the world that we are concerned our humanitarian response to this crisis. The latest about and in solidarity with the Rohingya people in the funding I referred to will help improve support and plight they are facing. The Minister said that his door is protection, especially for women and girls. Our aid will open. I welcome that statement and look forward to prevent, mitigate and respond to violence, exploitation going through that open door to discuss further what and abuse, including gender-based violence, and will we can do to support the Rohingya people. In particular, also help child survivors of abduction and trafficking, I hope that he will be able to write to me on two of the as was referred to by the hon. Member for Birmingham, questions I raised that he was unable to answer today, Edgbaston. Our aid has already provided lighting and concerning the purchase of PPE and the relationship padlocks for home shelters, and sanitation and with the military. I will await a letter from him on those infrastructure to improve women’s safety. issues. I appreciate that I have to allow some time for the I was very pleased that the hon. Member for Worthing right hon. Member for Islington North to conclude this West (Sir Peter Bottomley) mentioned the good work debate, so in the time available I will say that we must done by John Bercow, the former Speaker of this House, work to create the conditions that will allow the Rohingya who did a great deal to promote democratic development to return safely,voluntarily and with dignity to Myanmar,. in Myanmar, and indeed he went there. I think he The conflict between the Arakan army and the Myanmar should be thanked and applauded for that, because he military has made this so much harder. A commitment showed real courage and determination to spread to civilian protection will be key to any bilateral ceasefire, democracy there. and we continue to call for de-escalation and for dialogue, including at the UN Security Council. We convened the The hon. Member for East Renfrewshire (Kirsten Council in September and called for a cessation of Oswald) used a word in her speech that we never want hostilities in Rakhine and Chin states. to hear, but we have to. The word is “genocide”. We should thank the Government of The Gambia for being However, this is not just about providing humanitarian prepared to take that case to the International Court of assistance, essential though that is; accountability is Justice. The provisional judgments made are very serious also vital, as the hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston indeed, and I think that they have to be given a wide said. The Myanmar military has committed atrocities circulation. I thank all those who have managed to get against the Rohingya and other minorities, yet there has the word out. In particular, the very good report on been no tangible progress on accountability. We support al-Jazeera last night— the ICJ process and those provisional measures, and we are putting pressure on Myanmar to protect the Rohingya. The Foreign Secretary has raised the issue of impunity Derek Twigg (in the Chair): Order. in the Myanmar military with Myanmar’s Minister for International Cooperation. We will not pass by on the Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 10(6)). other side. This terrible crisis demands our full attention. We will build on the recent donor conference and do everything we can to help the Rohingya, and I know the whole House and the constituents we represent want 11 am nothing less. Sitting suspended. 63WH 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Royal Mail: South-east London 64WH

Royal Mail: South-east London Nevertheless, Royal Mail management went ahead with the closure two years ago, just before the peak Christmas period in 2018. The result was total chaos, 11.2 am with delayed and missing post. Residents were left completely bewildered after Royal Mail continued to Helen Hayes (Dulwich and West Norwood) (Lab): I deliver “Sorry we missed you” cards with details of the beg to move, closed East Dulwich delivery office and thousands of That this House has considered the Royal Mail service in letters informing residents of the closure went undelivered. south-east London. Royal Mail claimed at the time that it was not compulsory It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, to tell local residents that their local delivery office had Mr Twigg. I start by paying tribute to our postal workers. closed. During the coronavirus pandemic, they have been a Services improved a little after that difficult Christmas, lifeline for people across the country who have been although many of my constituents continued to struggle unable to leave their homes; they have been delivering to pick up post and parcels from the Peckham delivery parcels to people unable to get to the shops and letters office, due to its inaccessibility from large parts of East from loved ones who are unable to visit. As we enter a Dulwich. It is also clear that there is very little resilience second phase of lockdown, the importance of their role in the arrangements for East Dulwich deliveries, so staff is set only to continue. Postal workers have also been a sickness and annual leave have continued to lead quite vital source of human contact for people living alone at quickly to unreliable service. this time. They are spotting people who are struggling However, the coronavirus pandemic has tested East physically or emotionally, and often going the extra Dulwich delivery services beyond breaking point. Since mile to offer support or raise concerns. the start of the pandemic in March, constituents across As frontline workers, our postal workers have faced the SE22 postcode area have reported that their postal additional risks. Many have contracted coronavirus. deliveries are entirely unreliable. On many streets, residents Some have, tragically, lost their lives. All have had to report not receiving deliveries for days and sometimes live with the additional anxiety experienced in a line of weeks at a time. work that involves handling many thousands of individual Residents across East Dulwich have been inconvenienced, items every day. While touching post boxes, knocking butmanyindividualconstituentshavesufferedconsequences on doors and handing items across a threshold, they that are far more serious than being inconvenienced. may come into contact with a deadly disease. I pay Among the constituents suffering the most serious outcomes tribute to all of them. I know how hard they have of this collapse in service are those who have missed worked to maintain collections and deliveries and serve important hospital appointments for critical health our communities. conditions, those whose relatives’ death certificates went There is no doubt that, despite the best efforts of missing and those required to shield who did not receive postal workers, coronavirus has brought challenges for the Government’s advice on how to keep themselves Royal Mail, particularly in terms of staff sickness, and safe. there has been a great deal of forbearance among In addition, dozens of replacement bank cards went members of the public for frontline workers doing their missing, leaving some constituents unable to buy food very best to keep going at an extraordinarily difficult online at a time when they were unable to leave their time.However,in the East Dulwich part of my constituency, homes. Cheques went missing, including one for £4,000. covered by the SE22 postcode, patience has run out. One constituent now has to attend court for no other In 2017, Royal Mail announced its intention to close reason than that the letter informing her of a speeding the East Dulwich delivery office on Silvester Road in fine arrived after the deadline for paying the fine had SE22 and merge it with the already busy SE15 delivery passed. Parcels for students leaving home for university office in Peckham. The East Dulwich delivery office have not been delivered before the start of term, and was clearly not fit for purpose at the time. Specifically, it there are many cases of legal documents relating to was not big enough for the volume of mail being power of attorney, care arrangements or conveyancing processed there at busy times of the year. But moving being lost or greatly delayed. that workload to an already busy office in Peckham Royal Mail announced at the start of the pandemic made no sense then and has continued to make no sense that it was suspending Saturday deliveries. Also, Ofcom ever since. has confirmed that it considers the coronavirus pandemic I worked with local councillors and the community at to constitute an emergency and that Royal Mail is not the time of Royal Mail’s announcement in order to required to sustain services without interruption in the warn that the closure would result in a failure of service event of an emergency.However,there is a huge difference to my constituents in East Dulwich. Specifically, we between dropping Saturday deliveries and leaving my warned that parts of East Dulwich were a very long way constituents without any deliveries at all for two or from the Peckham delivery office, which would make it three weeks at a time. I believe that there is a serious gap difficult for postal workers to complete a round on foot in regulation, because if Royal Mail is not currently within their shift; that the topography of East Dulwich, required to meet the universal service obligation, my parts of which are very hilly, would further add to the constituents effectively have no way to hold it to account. difficulties; that public transport links to Peckham from I want to draw attention to the context in which my parts of East Dulwich are difficult; and that there is no constituents are suffering such serious consequences. convenient parking near the Peckham office. We urged While postal workers across the country have been Royal Mail again and again not to close the East serving on the frontline of the coronavirus pandemic, Dulwich delivery office without providing a fit-for-purpose Royal Mail’s chief operating officer and outgoing chief replacement delivery office in the SE22 postcode area. executive were both working from home, in Germany 65WH Royal Mail: South-east London3 NOVEMBER 2020 Royal Mail: South-east London 66WH and Switzerland respectively.The outgoing chief executive, Before addressing the specific concern about disrupted whose abrupt departure was announced in May, had delivery services in south-east London, I will provide a received a golden hello of £5.8 million, a sum that could bit of context and outline the performance of, and have been used to hire 252 postmen and postwomen, pressures on, postal services in the current times. I agree just a few of whom would have been able to sustain with the hon. Lady, and I recognise the important role reliable services for my constituents in SE22. The SE22 that postal workers have played and continue to play in Royal Mail delivery office on Silvester Road in East serving customers and supporting local communities Dulwich was sold for £7.5 million and is currently being across the UK. We should never forget the social and developed for luxury flats, carefully designed to fall just economic impact of Royal Mail, the Post Office and below the threshold requiring any affordable housing. postal services in general in connecting people. Their Royal Mail has announced a suspension of delivery willingness to maintain deliveries during the coronavirus of dividend payments for the current financial year. pandemic, at a time of increased social isolation, when There is no doubt that the organisation faces some many people cannot leave their homes, is vital. The serious challenges, but it is also clear that a privatised Government are relying on the postal service’s continued model for delivering this vital public service has not operation to keep people connected across the country, worked. The twin objectives of delivering the universal and deliver the letters and parcels that are so important service obligation and a return to shareholders are not to everyday life and supporting the economy in these compatible. As a consequence, we see an organisation unprecedented times. It is therefore vital that normal that, despite cuts and asset-stripping, is failing my services are maintained as far as possible. constituents. Royal Mail’s well-established contingency plans to I have been in regular contact with Royal Mail since mitigate disruption to postal services are overseen by the start of the pandemic and I recently visited the Ofcom, the independent regulator. It has reassured the Peckham delivery office. It is clear that staff there are Government, and I continue to monitor it and press it working very hard, but they are being failed because to ensure it is doing everything it can to maintain their work environment is not fit for purpose. Voluntary service levels during this period and that it continues to van-sharing, which would compromise the safety of keep Ofcom informed. Specific changes to Royal Mail’s postal workers just as we enter the second wave of services are an operational matter for Royal Mail. Any coronavirus, is not the answer either. reduction of services by it in exceptional circumstances Also, although I receive replies from Royal Mail on will be temporary and are undertaken only when absolutely behalf of my constituents regarding each individual necessary. It is for Ofcom to monitor service levels in failure, Royal Mail has never acknowledged the cumulative the first instance. failure of its services in SE22 or the seriousness of the The regulatory conditions that require Royal Mail to problems caused for so many of my constituents. deliver letters six days a week as part of the universal I have a number of questions for the Minister. Will he postal service also provide that it is not required to join me in raising the catastrophic failure of Royal Mail sustain those services without interruption, suspension in the SE22 postcode area in East Dulwich at the most or restriction in the event of an emergency. Ofcom has senior levels in Royal Mail and Ofcom, and in calling on acknowledged that the covid-19 pandemic is such an Royal Mail to reinstate a delivery office in SE22? Does emergency. It published a statement on its website on he agree that a regulatory system that does not allow for 29 April clarifying the regulatory framework that supported any accountability when the universal service obligation Royal Mail’s actions. It also confirmed that Royal Mail’s is suspended is not fit for purpose? Will he commit to a delivery obligations remain important elements of the review of the regulation of Royal Mail? Will he take universal service, and that it will keep the temporary action to ensure that Royal Mail can no longer unilaterally change under review. close and sell off delivery offices without clearly The regulatory framework is clear that emergency demonstrating that it will not result in repeated failures conditions allow Royal Mail to modify its operations, to deliver the universal service obligation, as has often which includes reducing the frequency of the delivery of happened to the residents I represent in East Dulwich? letters without formal authorisation if that is considered Does he agree that Royal Mail should not be run by necessary to respond to the challenges it faces in sustaining absentee, arm’s length executives domiciled overseas? the wider universal postal service during the pandemic. Does he agree that the payments to Royal Mail executives Royal Mail temporarily suspended Saturday letter deliveries are excessive and should be used instead to fund additional for six weeks from 2 May to 13 June 2020 in the light of postal workers in areas of staff shortage? Finally, does pressures on its staff during the height of the pandemic. he agree that privatisation is failing to deliver the services Saturday deliveries of parcels continued through the my constituents need, and that it is vital to bring this six-week period. vital public service back into common ownership so that it can be run for the benefit of people, not profit? A flexible approach to regulation under emergency conditions has supported Royal Mail and its hard-working 11.11 am employees. It has enabled the delivery of above-usual The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, volumes of parcels, while managing high levels of Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully): It is a coronavirus-related absences and necessary social distancing pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Twigg. I measures, keeping the country moving. Throughout the thank the hon. Member for Dulwich and West Norwood pandemic Royal Mail has been transparent with the (Helen Hayes) for securing this important debate and public about changes to its services, with service update standing up for her constituents, who have clearly suffered information published on its website. through the teething issues of the change to the sorting Saturday deliveries were temporarily suspended office and from the impact of coronavirus, which has nationwide, but I should like to address the specific affected other users and customers across the country. concerns about services in south-east London. Royal 67WH Royal Mail: South-east London3 NOVEMBER 2020 Royal Mail: South-east London 68WH

[Paul Scully] delivery, but given the pandemic, that is really no fault of its own, notwithstanding the teething problems with Mail informs me that service levels have been affected the changes to delivery offices. owing to necessary changes to business operations and The covid-19 pandemic continues to present challenging increased staff absence during the pandemic. conditions, not just in the south-east but across the I shall address each of those issues in turn, because as United Kingdom, Europe and globally. Royal Mail has the hon. Lady said there have clearly been teething done its level best to maintain service levels throughout problems and the changes have affected people, sometimes a situation outside its control. To try to keep on top of severely. I acknowledge the difficulties her constituents the ongoing epidemic conditions, which might see rising have experienced with those teething problems and staff absence alongside higher-still parcel volumes, in during the coronavirus outbreak. the run-up to Christmas, Royal Mail intends to recruit an additional 33,000 temporary workers, 10,000 more The safety of workers is a key priority of the than usual, to help to manage the increase in online Government. It is essential that Royal Mail workers are, shopping caused by the coronavirus. and feel, safe in their working environment, which is The Royal Mail’s universal service obligation is clearly why Royal Mail took significant steps to ensure its staff a challenge. The changes that have been made are work in a safe environment in line with Government temporary, but services across a number of sectors have guidelines. clearly been affected. Postal services affect so many Royal Mail advises colleagues that good hand hygiene people, which is why it is so important that we keep is the first and most important line of defence and their social value and keep people connected. promotes regular handwashing with soap and water. The Government continue to push to keep Royal Other protective items such as hand sanitiser, disposable Mail to as high a standard as possible. Any permanent gloves and face coverings are available to all staff. change would need to go first through a process with Royal Mail has implemented social distancing measures Ofcom before being decided in Parliament. It is important to ensure the safety of its staff and customers. For that we assess the impact on the hon. Lady’s constituents, example, it introduced the “thumbs up”campaign during and on people across the country—how they are being the height of the pandemic to make the public aware of affected and how they use postal services. the need to keep a safe distance while deliveries are The hon. Lady talked about absentee executives. As made. In addition, Royal Mail reduced the number of she said, there has been a change at the top, and I think staff in delivery vans from two to one. These measures that it is a better reflection of people’s expectations of have understandably had an impact on service levels. what is required in Royal Mail at a particularly challenging time, even beyond covid. As to privatisation, there are As with businesses across many sectors, staff absence some fundamental changes, not necessarily on ownership, at Royal Mail increased during the pandemic and remains that Royal Mail recognises and must address. It has a higher than usual, and that has clearly had an impact universal service obligation to keep six-day delivery on service delivery.South-east London covers 28 postcode right across the UK at a single price, but it also faces a areas serviced by 20 Royal Mail delivery offices, and challenge with the reduction in the number of letters these combined postcode areas are served by Croydon being sent and the increase in the number of parcels, mail centre. In the south-east London postcode area, which as yet it has been unable to capitalise on as much sickness absence peaked at above 20% in May and is as some of its competitors. A lot of functions need to be still higher than Royal Mail would normally expect at changed. this time of year. Postmen and women who served the area throughout the pandemic continue to dedicate I said that operational matters are a matter for Royal themselves to providing a public service in Dulwich and Mail, so I will not comment about reinstating the West Norwood and in all south-east London parliamentary service office in Silvester Road, but on behalf of the constituencies. Government, I again take the opportunity to thank Royal Mail and to thank the hon. Lady for raising Royal Mail employees have done their utmost to concerns for her constituents. It is important to focus deliver as much mail and as many parcels as possible in on this and get it right, and not just in relation to the difficult circumstances.In the East Dulwich area specifically temporary nature of the pandemic, hopefully, as we there are 23 delivery rounds a day. At the peak of the learn to live with the virus—we do not know how coronavirus, Royal Mail partially failed to deliver in an temporary it is. Clearly, we need to get things right for average of 12 delivery rounds a day. That means there those constituents who still rely on letters. Yes, people may have been a failure to deliver some products in each want their parcels, and people can use email, but some of those 12 rounds, and we have heard about the impact people like—and, as we have heard, need—a connection on the hon. Lady’s constituents. Those partial failures through letters, so thank you to the postal workers who are now down to two or three delivery rounds. continue to serve the nation, keeping us connected Where business operations have been adjusted to deal during these unprecedented times. with the pressures of the pandemic, Royal Mail has Question put and agreed to. been transparent about the changes in services. It 11.22 am acknowledges there have been some reductions in service Sitting suspended. 69WH 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Government Response to Covid-19 70WH

Government Response to Covid-19 rules and regulations now govern our very existence. Lord Sumption calls it a form of house arrest, and I concur. Interestingly, he also points out a section in the [SIR CHARLES WALKER in the Chair] minutes of SAGE, the body advising the Government, 2.30 pm where behavioural scientists advise the Government that Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): I beg to move, “Citizens should be treated as rational actors, capable of That this House has considered the effectiveness of the Government taking decisions for themselves and managing personal risk.” response to the covid-19 outbreak. Instead, unfortunately for all of us, coercion was selected. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Charles, for the first time. First, I want to make it This interference in our personal freedoms has not crystal clear that I do not underestimate this nasty been seen since the war. Imagine then if we had predicted virus. I have friends who have had it, friends who have the human cost; we would have surrendered immediately. got it, and a friend who nearly died from it. I also want I am 62 and I cannot recall a moment in our proud to state that I have a lot of sympathy for our Prime island history when our nation has been so cowed, to Minister, who faces an unprecedented challenge, the extent that it is now. Today, a police officer can issue contradictory advice, and a tough call to make, but that a fixed penalty notice of £10,000 to those “involved” in must not extinguish debate. As we hurtle towards another a gathering exceeding 30 people. Initially aimed at raves, lockdown, I would be doing my constituents a disservice that power has now been used for other purposes. That if I did not question the wisdom of repeating what has and other draconian rules, such as the 10pm curfew and already been implemented and failed. the rule of six, further enhance the sense of oppression. Lockdowns, in most people’s view, do not work. They Chris Green (Bolton West) (Con): Does my hon. simply delay the inevitable—the re-emergence of the Friend share my concern that the rationale and reasoning virus when lockdown ends, as has been shown. To for the rule of six and the 10 pm curfew have not been paraphrase Franklin D. Roosevelt in 1933, we have backed up with evidence? nothing to fear but fear itself. I do not know about you, Sir Charles, but after three long years of project fear Richard Drax: The good reason why a few of us voted during the Brexit debate, I am tired of fear. I long for against those measures was that there was no evidence optimism, hope,aspiration, courage,and our long-departed to support them. friend, common sense. Instead, we have been force-fed a The 10 pm curfew only further destroyed the hospitality diet of death and destruction on an almost hourly basis sector, while the rule of six broke up families. I cannot for month after month, and we face more, although think of a modern crisis in which family and families who would not have capitulated after Saturday’s are more essential and more important. Surely, their presentation when we heard that deaths could peak at support is common sense, despite the risks. It is for 4,000 a day by Christmas? them to make decisions about who they see and when, Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con): Is my hon. Friend not the Government. aware that already the case for the 4,000 deaths, the Depressingly, we have been warned that this lockdown sombrero of doom, is falling apart, and even the researcher might go on after 2 December, putting family gatherings who put the research together now says we should not at Christmas at risk. Nowhere in the debate, as far as I be using it? can recall, have we heard the word “risk”. The reason, I fear, is that we have become risk averse. Personally, I Richard Drax: I have heard that. I thank my hon. think that has made the sleepwalk into an invasion of Friend for his intervention. I will come on to more our civil liberties even easier. statistics later, although they are not always helpful. All appears to hang on the introduction of a vaccine, I was interested in a recent article written by but the history of vaccines does not bring much comfort. The Telegraph’s Ross Clark in which he asked whether An all-out effort is being made to create a vaccine, but anyone had been able to read the small print at the how effective will it be? Who will it help? When will we bottom of the graph, which states: actually have it? All these questions are still unanswered, “These are scenarios—not predictions or forecasts.” although I welcome every effort to get one. I have He added that it was odd that there was no source spoken to quite a few medical experts and they tell me listing for the graphs. I would think that the best guide that pandemics end naturally,mitigated by better treatment to future deaths is numbers of infections, but even those of those who suffer, a vaccine and immunity in the are a difficult yardstick as they are falling in some parts population. Like flu, we must learn to live with this of the country and rising in others. It is also important virus and not let it destroy us. to acknowledge that the more we test, the higher the In the meantime, we are leaving a devastated landscape, infection rate. It is encouraging that the death rate has economically, financially, physically and mentally. My halved as effective treatments have come into play. Let own constituency of South Dorset, the prettiest in the us not forget Professor Neil Ferguson’s dire warning in country, relies heavily on the hospitality sector. Those March of 250,000 deaths. The truth is that—my hon. in that sector responded to calls to make their facilities Friend has hinted at it—predictions, modelling, forecasts safer, only to now see them shutting again. and scenarios change, and with them the Government’s policy.What is that exactly? The modus operandi appears Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con): to be a roller coaster ride of lockdowns and release until My hon. Friend mentions the financial aspects of the a vaccine is found. But why, when we have a virus with a crisis and the financial devastation we are going through. 99% survival rate? Last month the virus was the 19th most Does he recall that, in the last 10 years, the Labour common cause of death. Have we overreacted? Yes, I party has repeatedly lambasted us for what they call think we have. A draconian, onerous and invasive set of austerity, which was us trying to balance the books, 71WH Government Response to Covid-193 NOVEMBER 2020 Government Response to Covid-19 72WH

[Daniel Kawczynski] killer, as portrayed. We know it mainly targets the elderly,especially those with serious underlying conditions. reducing the deficit from £152 billion a year to £20 billion All our resources should be aimed at protecting them a year? Does he agree that if we had not pursued that and those in care homes and hospitals. I hope that the fiscal discipline the situation now would be catastrophic? Government respond positively to those who rightly say we should be allowed to visit family and friends there Richard Drax: I am always delighted to hear from my during this next lockdown. No one should suffer or die hon. Friend. He sounds like the former Chancellor of alone. Human touch is not only essential but it saves the Exchequer on Radio 4 just the other day. I concur; lives. Test and trace is vital and must be expanded when there is no money in the coffers, savings have to be nationwide as soon as possible. made or taxes raised. I pay tribute to the coalition Secondly, we must and should have expanded services Government, who did their best to get our economy in the NHS. Because that has not happened over recent back into a place to face circumstances such as we face months, many seriously ill patients have forgone hospital today. treatment either for fear of catching the virus or because beds have been put aside for the predicted surge of Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op): I am those suffering from covid. I have huge admiration for grateful to the hon. Gentleman for initiating today’s all those working in the NHS and thank them from the debate. Will he also note that had the Government not bottom of my heart for what they do. But the Government’s stripped our NHS so bare that it did not even have slogan “Stay Home, Protect the NHS, Save Lives” has enough PPE to protect its workers, we would not be in the wrong emphasis. The NHS is here to protect us, not this catastrophic mess and we would not have seen our the other way round. incredible NHS workers die? Thirdly, sadly, we must accept a certain number of deaths although, as I have just said, everything must be Richard Drax: I do not entirely concur with the hon. done to keep the figure as low as possible. Every death is Lady. The NHS has record amounts of money. Let’s regrettable. face it, many care homes are privately run and responsible for PPE themselves, as is the NHS. Not that long ago an Fourthly, it is time to publish everything we know to exercise was run and warnings given that were a pandemic counter the current lack of transparency, especially the of this sort to come, the NHS should prepare. I am not number of deaths caused by lockdown. Too many inquiries criticising the NHS, for which I have huge respect, but it are met with silence or referred to freedom of information is up to the organisations themselves and not, perhaps, requests. individual Ministers, to ensure that they have the right Fifthly, we must abandon lockdowns. They are equipment. I am not going to go further down that destructive, divisive and do not work. Sixthly, while road, if the hon. Lady will forgive me. protecting the most vulnerable we must let the majority of the nation get on with their lives. Seventhly, that I go back to people opening and shutting their businesses. majority should adopt common-sense precautions where Business owners are furious at this chop and change, appropriate. which places their livelihoods at risk, some after years of hard graft and sacrifice. Many of my constituents Finally, we must get the nation back to work, continue who are on low wages and struggling to survive depend to keep our students at university receiving the education on these jobs to get by. There is no doubt that another for which they have paid and not virtual education, and lockdown will see many jobs disappear; many already our schools must remain open. have. The huge take-up of universal credit will get even I conclude as I started. I sympathise with the larger. Not one of my constituents has asked for this. Government, but I and others must be allowed to They are proud people who do their level best to contribute. question the direction of travel, especially one that Signing on must be utterly soul destroying. clearly is not working. With signs of unrest growing Let us not forget the welfare bill. Along with the here and in Europe, I urge the Government to look furlough scheme, which is now to be extended—I welcome seriously at another way forward. I am genuinely shocked that in the circumstances—it has soaked up hundreds of at how easily people’s hard-earned liberties have been billions of pounds we do not have. How and when will it taken away from them without so much as a by your be repaid? It will be repaid by my children—our children— leave. We are in this House to serve, not to dictate. I that is who. have learned in life that there is never one solution to a problem. An appreciation of our current situation would We will have to treat this spending spree in the same throw up several courses of action. May I urge the way we treated our wartime debt. Raising taxes would Government to study the alternative courses before cripple those who survived these shutdowns, and who, theirs is beyond recall? let us remember, pay for our public services through tax. I mean no disrespect to those who work in the public sector, but on the whole their jobs are secure. It is 2.43 pm the companies, entrepreneurs, small businesses and self- Taiwo Owatemi (Coventry North West) (Lab): It is a employed in the private sector who are bearing the pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Charles. brunt of this blunt tool and who must not—I urge the I thank the hon. Member for South Dorset (Mr Drax) Minister for whom I have huge respect—be hit by taxes for securing this important debate. All of us here today when we emerge from this pandemic. More of tax on are saddened that we are heading into another lockdown another day. without the Government having done everything in What is an alternative path? I am a signatory to the their power to limit the loss of lives and infections Great Barrington declaration, to which I would like to in this second wave. I worry that thousands of lives will add eight thoughts. First, the virus is not an indiscriminate be lost and that our health and social care sectors will 73WH Government Response to Covid-193 NOVEMBER 2020 Government Response to Covid-19 74WH be pushed to breaking point once again. While I commend On 31 January, the first case of coronavirus occurred the Government for listening to the Opposition and to in the UK, in my constituency. At that point, we had SAGE and for following the science, I am concerned real engagement with the Government, and I was grateful that it has come a little too late. for the discussions I had with them and officials about We are here to discuss the Government’s effectiveness how we could manage the pandemic. However, the in dealing with the crisis, and I would not be telling the plans put in place then certainly have not lasted throughout truth if I did not say that the Government have fallen the crisis. That is why it is really important to return to short in navigating us effectively through the crisis. But some of the principles that were established early on. here we are, and I look forward to working collaboratively We now know that over a million people in our with all Members in the House to move forward and country have contracted the virus, and 46,853 of them mitigate the worst of what is to come. are no longer with us. Therefore, we cannot continue to The Government have rightly said that the NHS will take the risks that have been taken up to now. Although get whatever it takes to deal with covid-19, and I am I heard what the hon. Member for South Dorset (Richard sure that the hon. Member for South Dorset agrees that Drax) said, the situation we are in means that we must it should be the same for the social care sector. It is put people’s lives at the forefront, which means protecting imperative that weekly testing of care home residents both their physical and mental health. and staff is prioritised in order to save many lives. As I It seems to me that the virus is always a step ahead of speak about my friends and colleagues in the health and the measures being put in place to control it. Therefore, social care sector, I am sure that the hon. Member for this lockdown period will be absolutely vital for us to South Dorset would like to join me in paying tribute to catch up with, get ahead of and then get on top of the all the frontline workers who have put their lives on the virus, so that we can lock it, rather than people and the line during the pandemic. economy, down. Statistics show that 1,320 healthcare workers have That was the plan on day one; that was part of the died from covid. One life lost is too many and discussions that I had earlier this year. I was told that 1,320 represents a dereliction of duty on our behalf. meticulous contact tracing was absolutely essential to Delays in the early stages of the pandemic meant that track down the virus. However, after talking to public healthcare workers were forced to work without the health officials locally, it is clear that there is so much requisite PPE. Staff with pre-existing conditions are delay in the process that contact tracing has been ineffective. still working, despite evidence showing that they are more likely to die, or become very ill, from the disease. Let me give some statistics. When it comes to getting The sacrifices that they have made makes it incredibly the test results themselves, 16% are provided within painful that our nurses and colleagues in the social care 24 hours and 60% within 48 hours. Within 72 hours, we sector are not being paid a fair wage. There are about get 96% of the data. Often, however, the data coming 759 nurses living in my constituency who will be expected through is incomplete, because it has not been properly to work during the deadly second wave. One way this entered into the system. On top of that, we know that Government can show us that they value the work of Serco then holds that data, often for 48 hours, as it has a our nurses is by increasing their pay now.It is unfathomable national contact tracing system. By the time local authorities that nurses should still have to wait until April to receive get the data, we are into day five, six or even seven of better pay for the important work that they do. the virus. That is not how we lock down the virus tightly and move into the isolation and testing process. That is As for social care staff, I hope that the hon. Member what must change. for South Dorset will agree that those on the minimum wage should also receive increased pay. A pay rise will We know that the ability of Serco to deliver good not compensate them for the missed birthdays, school contact tracing falls below 50%. However,local authorities plays and other memories not shared with their loved are turning that situation around. Yesterday, the statistic ones, but it will give them—nurses and social care for York was 83.7%, and local officials say they would workers—dignity in their work and help them to provide get to 100% if they had complete data. Let us just for their families, which is help that they deserve. imagine it: the local authority controls the testing process, so when somebody turns up at a test, local officials I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman will join me in input the data, and the test results could then be delivered asking the Government to ensure that just three things overnight. That could be done in York if the Government happen: first, that healthcare workers do not run out of supported local providers, such as the university and personal protective equipment; secondly, that they receive local laboratories, to turn those tests around overnight. a pay increase; and, thirdly, that healthcare and social Then, in the morning, the local public health team care staff with pre-existing medical conditions are better would be tracking down the virus and there would be protected and shielded during the second wave. contact tracing the next day, locking down the virus As I said, it is really important for us to learn the and therefore ensuring that the rest of the economy is lessons of the first wave and to work together for all our working well. constituents. That turns the whole debate on its head, from assuming that everybody is contagious to allowing us to have our Sir Charles Walker (in the Chair): We are now going freedoms. That is what needs to happen in the next to try to keep colleagues to five minutes. month, because the accuracy local authorities can achieve comes from their local knowledge and the precision 2.51 pm they have through their professional training. There are also just simple things, such as using a local phone Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op): It is a number and knocking on doors to lock down the virus.That pleasure to serve under you in the Chair, Sir Charles. works, and it is essential that we go through that process. 75WH Government Response to Covid-193 NOVEMBER 2020 Government Response to Covid-19 76WH

[Rachael Maskell] the Government to close those gaps. The key point with the Treasury is how easy it is to forget just what a stellar I also want to raise an issue about the economy. At performance it was to get the furlough scheme, the the moment, broad sweeps are taken, with different self-employed schemes and the various loan schemes in parts of the economy and different sectors shutting place as fast as it did. It was an absolutely incredible down. If we took a public health approach, as we do performance. with all other public health issues, and instead made We could also talk about the Ministry of Housing, sure that workplaces and venues were covid-secure, we Communities and Local Government getting the homeless could certify them as such and ensure that there is off the streets, apart from those who did not want to be enforcement. If they were not, they would be subject to reached, as far as I can tell, and about the Department an improvement notice or closure. Again, taking that for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the Cabinet public health approach means that we are not ruining Office, the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial the economy; we are just putting good practice in place. Strategy and the Department for Education. That is how we can manage the pandemic into the However, I want to press one issue with my right hon. longer term, and I trust the Government will respond. Friend the Minister, which is PPE supplies. It has been raised already, and it has rather dropped off the radar 2.56 pm between waves. I hope that in the next wave we do not Mr Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): Sir Charles, I am find we have any shortages of PPE. I do not think the absolutely delighted that you are in the Chair, and I am public will take that kindly at all. In the Department of sure my right hon. Friend the Minister is glad too. I Health and Social Care, there has been tremendous congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South success with testing, and we are now looking forward Dorset (Richard Drax) on securing the debate, and I am with energy and enthusiasm, I think, to a further expansion glad that he did so. of testing, particularly in Liverpool. Having had the privilege of being a Minister with In my remaining minute and a half, I want to touch cross-Government responsibilities, I want to begin by on some suggestions in terms of areas for improvement. reflecting on just how magnificently effective the I have four, if I can rattle through them. The first, which Government have been in many ways in responding to is possibly the one that has been most alive in our minds the covid-19 outbreak. I regret that I will not be able to this week, and which hon. Friends have touched on enumerate in five minutes all the ways in which they already, is the communication of complex data. In have been high performing, but I will touch on a few. particular, the modelled death projections have quickly Starting locally, Buckinghamshire Healthcare NHS been shown to be out of date, never accurate and not Trust has been absolutely outstanding. It is under the the most relevant factor to the decision—yet they are leadership of Neil Macdonald, and I could not have repeatedly put to us. I use those three factors because asked for more from our local NHS, which has responded those are what come out of the answers I have been flexibly, kept services going and looked after the public. given. Every time officials and Ministers have shown us I do not mind putting on the record that even though I those charts, it has been like sunshine on the morning am fine and I got the all-clear, I had a genuine cancer mist—the importance of the charts has just evaporated scare in the course of the first lockdown. I was therefore when prodded. That is regrettable; I will try not to go delighted that cancer services were continuing and that any further than that. This Government are supposed I was able to have the necessary tests to discover I was to be very good at communicating complex data. There fine. However, it was a frightening moment, and I was are some exceptional data scientists in the Government—it grateful to the healthcare trust for making its services has been my privilege to have contact with them over available uninterrupted, as far as I experienced them, the last week, and these are really impressive people—but throughout the crisis. something went wrong when those charts came out. The second area is expert advice. I have made some Buckinghamshire Council is so effective and dynamic proposals for competitive multidisciplinary expert advice that I could almost become an advocate of the ephemeral with red teams. I thank the Government for letting me term “the entrepreneurial state”. I have been delighted be a red team. Modelling also needs to be improved; I with how the council has risen to the challenge of will make some suggestions. Finally, there is cost-benefit looking after local people, whether that was those who analysis. It might be practically impossible to give us a needed food delivered, local children or the homeless. I cost-benefit analysis, but in the context of these momentous am delighted by the council’sperformance.Fire, ambulance decisions, we really should be looking at some figures to and GPs have all also risen to the challenge. This is help inform our choices. about Government effectiveness, so I will not touch on the private sector, but I am grateful to it too. I have been delighted, both personally and on behalf of my electors, 3.1 pm by the performance of the full spectrum of local public Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the hon. services. Member for South Dorset (Richard Drax) for the The Treasury’s performance in delivering economic opportunity to speak in this debate. I might have a support has been absolutely tremendous. The gaps in slightly different focus in relation to where we are support have been well rehearsed and argued over, and I going. will not go over them again here. I suspect it is futile to As I said in the main Chamber last night, I am not a ask my right hon. Friends to close the gaps in support, scientist, and I am certainly not a strategist. I understand but I particularly plead for the self-employed earning my limitations in relation to covid-19, and I depend on just over £50,000 a year. They have been especially hard others to keep me right about where we are. That allows hit, and there are a number of other groups, which we me to accept that, during the first wave, the Government do not need to go through now. However, I encourage did what they could with the information they had, to 77WH Government Response to Covid-193 NOVEMBER 2020 Government Response to Covid-19 78WH fight the virus and the effect it had on this country. I am There are also the hairdressers and barbers; the Government not going to cast any aspersions on the Government for want to get the R rate down to 1, but they get it down that. I thank them and Ministers for all that they have to 0.02 and they are all closed. Why is that? Children done in a very difficult and trying time. can go to school—in Northern Ireland, they went back I also want to put on record my thanks to nurses and to school on Monday past, which is good news. I also care workers, and I will make a plea, as the hon. make a plea for churches. People want to worship and Member for Coventry North West (Taiwo Owatemi) pray together. I would like to know where the data is did, for the nurses. The Royal College of Nursing has that says churches must close, because I am not quite contacted me, as it has contacted every MP, asking for a sure it is there. wage increase. I have told them I will support that; I It is important that we are here to do our job. I have written to the Minister about it, and I want to wholeheartedly agree with the Leader of the House, but make sure that that is in Hansard today. it is vital that shops can be open in a safe way to do their We are now in a second wave, and we thankfully have job. We must get that right and ensure that lockdown more information. Wehave more knowledge and experience, gives us time to get opening and safety measures right, and with the additional support comes an additional so that we do not find ourselves in this situation again, demand to get things right—as the Scripture says, to with the spikes that we are told will happen, in February whom much is given, much is required. That being and the spring. Our economy and the future health of the case, the nation is watching and will hold us to a the nation simply cannot take it. How do we do it? We much higher standard. We have to get this right this do it together. We deal with health and the economy time round. together. We support our Government and our Minister to try to make that happen. I have lost a loved one very close to me. My wife’s mother died from covid-19 just two weeks ago. My 3.6 pm sister-in-law was also getting oxygen. My wife’s aunt and uncle have both had it as well. I understand all too Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con): I thank my hon. well the human aspect that is faced. I see the torment of Friend the Member for South Dorset (Richard Drax) those who cannot be with their loved ones at the end, for securing the debate. It is a pleasure to follow the who cannot choose the outfit and cannot have a normal hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), and I am funeral. Funerals are limited to 25 people, who then sorry for his recent loss. have to go home separately to their homes to grieve. I do not want to be negative, but I am going to be The human cost is massive. What I suggest to everyone quite negative, so I apologise up front. There is a lot here—I say this honestly and respectfully—is to not that the Government—especially Treasury—have done underestimate the impact of covid-19 and the harm and that is extremely good, and I know that all Ministers are the deaths that it brings. We all have to find a way to working as hard as they can, but I am concerned that mitigate that as best as we can. Speaking personal, people are losing faith in their use of data and science. covid-19 is the most horrible, unfeeling and cruel disease. Because the debate is such an important one, I want to It robs families of their loved ones and their dignity. focus on that and to park a lot of the good stuff, However,the human loss in terms of the worst recession although I am not ignoring it. this nation has faced will be great too. There are cancer First, scientists are becoming increasingly sceptical diagnoses missed by people who are afraid to go to the about the use of lockdowns. Edinburgh’s Professor doctors. There is the inadequate funding that will come Woolhouse says that lockdowns are a strategy that is when budgets are slashed, which will mean that mental “visibly failing”. Oxford’s Carl Heneghan—thank God health services are lost. Every one of us is pleading for for him—says that lockdowns push peaks into the future, that focus on the national health. We see cutting-edge just requiring more lockdowns. Anyone who thinks we technology as a faraway dream, and we see all those are all coming out of lockdown on 2 December is living things that are taken for granted—our welfare state— in a parallel universe. One can dream about it, but decimated due to decisions made in this House. The frankly the reality is slight. Sunetra Gupta has said: pressure to get it right is immense. Those who are on the “Lockdown is a blunt...policy that forces the poorest and most minimum wage and those whose hours have been cut vulnerable people to bear the brunt of…coronavirus.” find themselves in a dire financial position. We cannot Everyone making decisions about coronavirus is in a ignore these things—they are happening. We cannot well-paid job with a cushy pension. There are many ignore the self-employed, as the hon. Member for Wycombe people who are suffering about whom one cannot say (Mr Baker) said. We all know those people as well. that. The WHO says that lockdowns are a last resort. Local businesses in my area have gone all out to So disturbed are Heneghan and Tom Jefferson by the ensure that they mitigate what is happening as much as use of Government stats—the predictions, projections possible. I have seen small businesses taking such steps and illustrations—that they have said that the Government’s as supplying free masks at the door. Small businesses use of them is “abysmal”. I would love to know from understand that the mortgage payment is due. Their the Minister why she thinks that senior independent ability to invest in stock is on the line, unless they do all scientists are being quite so caustic about the Government’s they can to stop the spread. It is for those people that I use of facts. ask the Government again to assess the transmission One reason, as far as I can see, is Professor Ferguson data, and pinpoint where transmission happens, rather and Imperial College. I shall be careful what I say, than blanket banning all shops. because they are professionals and worthy of respect, Christmas is the time when the local high street but Professor Ferguson has for 20 years had a history of makes the money to keep it going for the year. We all predicting mass death from almost every public health know that, and I know it is true for the towns in my emergency. I am not a scientist, so I will not quote constituency. That all hangs in the balance—on a thread. myself; instead, I will quote a bunch of other people, 79WH Government Response to Covid-193 NOVEMBER 2020 Government Response to Covid-19 80WH

[Bob Seely] I understand the virulent nature of covid, and I understand the impact on the NHS, although I thought because it is strongly in the public interest that the the NHS was there to protect us, not the other way around. Government, as a matter of urgency, conduct a peer We need some semblance of balance; if the Government review of the evidence that they have been receiving. were using statistics honestly, openly and transparently Johan Giesecke, Sweden’s former chief epidemiologist, and, on balance, came down on the side of lockdown, said Ferguson’s model was “not very good”. In academia that would be fine. However, lockdown is a dubious that is fighting talk. The Washington Post quoted him as tool and the way we are presenting the data is a hazardous saying that the forecasts were almost hysterical. Lund way to approach the subject. University applied Ferguson’smodels and found a massive difference between his predictions and what happened. 3.13 pm Professor Angus Dalgleish said that there had been Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con): “luridpredictions”.ViscountRidleyhascriticisedFerguson’s I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for South modellings. Professor Michael Thrusfield of the University Dorset (Richard Drax) for securing this important debate. of Edinburgh said that Ferguson’s modelling on foot I want to spend my five minutes touching upon how and mouth was “severely flawed”. John Ioannidis of devolution stands up at a time of national crisis. Many Stanford University said that of us had severe reservations about the devolution “major assumptions and estimates that are built in the process when Mr Blair started to change our national calculations…seem to be substantially inflated”, makeup and constitution. I speak as someone who represents an English seat that borders Wales. although he did say that the Imperial team seemed to be professional. In Shrewsbury we are very proud of being the gateway to Wales. We have so many Welsh people living in our Other experts whom I have spoken to say that Imperial’s constituency that when England and Wales play against work is almost always an extreme outlier to normal each other in rugby, we have both flags flying side by forecasts. Yet it seems that the Government, because of side throughout the town. Many people in our community their risk-averse nature—which I understand—have taken have homes, businesses and land on both sides of the outliers as the norm, which they categorically are not. Let border; most importantly, many have families on both us look at Ferguson’s predictions: 150,000 deaths from sides of the border.It has been devastating to see increasing foot and mouth disease, when the figure was between divergence between the jurisdictions of London—of 50 and 50,000; 150 million worldwide from bird flu, Westminster—and Wales, throwing up a great deal of when 282 died; and 65,000 British deaths from swine uncertainty, misery and paralysis for border communities flu, when 457 died. I know that mitigations take place such as mine. It was really brought home to me by afterwards, but the Government need to look into some Councillor Hignett from Pontesbury,who has grandchildren of the advice they are getting, because I think it is highly just across the border.He can see some of his grandchildren dangerous. Members of SAGE yesterday were arguing who are on one side of the border, but not others, for a total shutdown, including schools, and I really although Powys and Shropshire have an almost identical wonder whether the Government are losing the plot R rate. over this. We are obsessive about the risks of covid. I am also very disappointed with the Mayors, and the one I am most disappointed with is Andy Burnham. I Mr Steve Baker: I had a meeting earlier, which my believe that his grandstanding, pontificating conduct hon. Friend knows about, with Sir Jeremy Farrar. One on the television has destabilised to a certain degree the thing that he explained to me is that if schools are left tiered system that was starting to show results. Has his open, that adds 0.3 to 0.4 to R, so if we are going into conduct contributed to the fact that the United Kingdom lockdown for a month, it is a big compromise. The is now moving from a tiered system to a full-blown Government needs to explain whytheir strategy is consistent national lockdown? I would argue that the sheer refusal with leaving schools open, much as I applaud the fact from him and his like to understand the common need they will be there. to come together in a national crisis has contributed to making sure that areas such as mine with low R rates are now being forced into a national lockdown. Bob Seely: Where is there any sense of balance? I speak personally, and I know the hon. Member for Richard Drax: Will my hon. Friend give way? Strangford (Jim Shannon) lost somebody recently. Over the last decade, both my parents died of winter respiratory Sir Charles Walker (in the Chair): Order. It will have flu, and that was really upsetting for me. Three years to be quick, otherwise we will run out of time. ago, 22,000 people died of winter flu. According to the logic of some hon. Members of this House, we would Richard Drax: This is devolve and divide. Would it effectively have to shut down our lives for six months of not be wise for the Government not to go down the mayoral the year in case people die. A bizarrely dangerous route in the future for other areas of the country? precedent is being set, whereby the Government now believe they can effectively halt death. Daniel Kawczynski: I absolutely agree. This is something Once upon a time, we would go to someone’s funeral that historians will be looking over for many years to when they hit 85 or over—my dad made it to his come. We have to learn from these mistakes during the mid-80s—and talk about a life well led. Now, if someone national crisis. dies of covid several years above the national average We have a very low infection rate in Shropshire in lifespan, politicians are saying it is the greatest disaster comparison with other parts of the United Kingdom. facing humanity and must never happen again. We are a large rural county that is very spread out. 81WH Government Response to Covid-193 NOVEMBER 2020 Government Response to Covid-19 82WH

Salopians—people from Shropshire—have been following hand, we understand that this is an incredibly urgent the rules, but as a result of what has been going on in situation, requiring decisive and quick decision making. other parts of the United Kingdom, we now have a One the other hand, negotiations can take 10 days, when lockdown, which will have devastating consequence for in other circumstances the lockdown features have been many of our businesses. I will be voting for the legislation imposed centrally. on Wednesday, but I am sure, Sir Charles, that you have The current approach to lockdown has us going from listened to your constituents and many small businesses, the tiered system—before it has been proven to work or which have put so much energy and effort into creating to fail, and without seeing what evidence we can take livelihoods. So much is at risk now, and it really pains from it—immediately into another national circuit-breaker me to see that suffering. lockdown. We have had one of those before, for three As I said earlier, I am proud of the fact that when we weeks. This is a milder version, because schools are not came to office we reduced the annual structural deficit included, but it is happening in winter, in more difficult that we inherited from Labour from £152 billion to conditions. As my hon. Friend the Member for South £20 billion a year. My hon. Friend the Member for Dorset suggested, this lockdown should be more severe, South Dorset will remember the vilification to which we because winter presents a more difficult environment in have been subjected for the past 10 years, with talk of which to achieve a reduction of the R rate and control savage Tory cuts and austerity. My goodness me, at a transmission to allow the test and trace system to work. time when we are borrowing more than £200 billion, when we have a debt ratio of more than 103% of GDP, In Bolton, we have been through the national lockdown when we are already spending £53 billion of taxpayers’ restrictions, the Greater Manchester local lockdown and money on debt interest and when the crisis has not even the Bolton economic lockdown. We came back out into finished, I dread to think of the economic situation that the Manchester lockdown and went into tier 2, then we would now be in if we had followed the policies of tier 3. Before we know it, we will be in another national the now suspended former Labour leader and gone for lockdown. I am not sure that there has been sufficient massive borrowing when we did not have a crisis. reflection on the often devastating impact on people’s I want to ask the Minister about something that a lives, livelihoods and education. Questions over civil Conservative candidate in the forthcoming local elections liberties have not been looked into a great deal over the has asked. Mrs Susan Coleman wants confirmation course of the pandemic, which began months ago. that everything is being done for ladies who are pregnant There has not been enough time for reflection. so that when they go through the process in hospital, Throughout this crisis, and especially since Bolton has their partners are given covid tests as quickly as possible been in such a difficult position, I have been asking for and can be present throughout the whole process of information from the Government. What has been giving birth to the child. happening? What is going on? What reports and assessments Finally, the leader of the Conservative group in have been produced, and can I have access to them? Can Shrewsbury Town Council wants me to ask what happens I explain to my constituents what they have been through if the R rate falls below 1 during this lockdown. Will it and why, and what the problems were? I have also asked be possible for it to be lifted sooner than 2 December? what the successes have been. What successes have the Government learned from in Bolton that can be applied Sir Charles Walker (in the Chair): Mr Hunt will get to the national lockdown or introduced to the tiering 5 minutes if Mr Green takes just 5 minutes and colleagues system? I would love to know. do not intervene on him, and then everybody will be treated fairly. Unfortunately,the Government have not communicated the basics. We are now going into a second national 3.19 pm lockdown, and we need people to have confidence in the Chris Green (Bolton West) (Con): It is a pleasure to Government and their actions. We heard on Saturday serve under your chairmanship, Sir Charles. I congratulate about the figure of 4,000 deaths per day—four times the my hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset (Richard figure at the previous peak of the pandemic—but it Drax) on securing this incredibly important debate. largely does not reflect our experience over the last six My principal concern is the somewhat erratic nature or seven months. Our doctors and hospitals are far of the Government’s approach to dealing with the covid better prepared, and they have far greater knowledge crisis. At the beginning, we were in a very difficult than they did. According to the Government, however, position because we knew very little about covid, its the median figure in that report of 4,000 deaths a day impact and how it spread. It is not like flu, which we can could increase to 6,000. Many of my constituents are understand by looking at last year and the year before looking with disbelief at what the Government say. If that, and we cannot really look at what other countries people do not believe what the Government say or are doing to see what we should be doing, because each believe in their approach, people will not follow the law country is different. We do not have that comparative or the guidance. process, but as we move forward we can reflect on what To conclude, I would like to raise a couple of points. we have done, reflect on our successes and failures, and Regarding places of worship and gyms, what evidence adapt as we go along. I was hopeful that once we had is there to say that they should be closed down? What the tier system in place, we would be able to see the impact assessments have been made on the closure of impact in the respective tiers. In Liverpool, for example, gyms, particularly for women? People are concerned the Government would say that tier 3 was having a about running in the dark, and I think that will have a positive impact. greater impact on women. The question should not be Thereweredrawn-outnegotiationsinGreaterManchester what assessment the House has made of the Government’s that lasted 10 days. I would not want to apportion the actions on covid, but whether the Government have really blame for that to the Mayor or the Government. On one considered their own actions. 83WH Government Response to Covid-193 NOVEMBER 2020 Government Response to Covid-19 84WH

Sir Charles Walker (in the Chair): Thank you very much, and guidelines need to be followed—in my case, they Mr Green. Last but not least, Tom Hunt. were not. It needs to be realistic about what it is asking people to do. If that means being pragmatic by saying 3.24 pm seven days instead of 14 to drive up the rates of compliance, that is better than the status quo where it seems like so Tom Hunt (Ipswich) (Con): It is a pleasure to serve many people are not following the guidelines. under your chairmanship, Sir Charles. I spoke yesterday at the general covid debate, where I covered lots of We have heard all about test and trace, but we have issues that I feel strongly about. Today I will talk not heard enough about the implications for people of specifically about NHS Test and Trace and some of my being asked to self-isolate for so long, or from the concerns about low levels of compliance, the mental perspective of our liberties. Yes, it is necessary to have a health implications for people who are asked to self-isolate test and trace system and yes, self-isolation is necessary and the impact on their financial circumstances. I know if someone has tested positive, has had symptoms or a fair bit about this, because I was recently asked to has been exposed to someone who has tested positive. self-isolate for 11 days.I immediately went to the guidelines, When we are discussing local authorities sharing data which said that a person will be asked to self-isolate if with the police force, the great concern I have is that they have been exposed to somebody who has tested some individuals might not get a test when they have positive for covid within 48 hours of them developing symptoms. They may think, “If I get a test, not only will symptoms. For me, I worked it out and it was 62 hours, I have to self-isolate for 14 days, but potentially nine or and yet I was asked to self-isolate. According to the 10 people I know will have to as well,” and that might NHS Test and Trace guidelines, I should not have been impact their lives in all manner of different ways: financially, asked to self-isolate. However, I was and I did. It was mentally and psychologically. not pleasant, but we got through it. I got a very bad Let us have a test and trace policy driven by pragmatism cold, which I thought was a cold and not covid. Then I to get high rates of compliance, but also one that never thought I might have covid and a cold at the same time, loses sight of the significance of what it is asking people so I did get a test and it was negative, but I still had to to do. That is incredibly important, and I thank all the self-isolate for nine days afterwards. NHS workers who are working on this. We need to have I mention this because it got me thinking about the a system that is easy to follow, realistic and drives high low levels of compliance. In the debate yesterday, I rates of compliance. think my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Surrey (Jeremy Hunt) suggested that the figure for 3.29 pm compliance was only around 20%. I have heard similar Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP): It is a pleasure figures mentioned in the media. That is a concern, to see you in the Chair, Sir Charles. because if we are going to have a successful test and I am grateful for the opportunity of this debate on trace system, we need really high levels of compliance. the Government’s response to covid-19, which was not The question is: are we asking too much by requiring particularly effective. Unusually in debates in this place, people to self-isolate for 14 days, and are we getting there is cross-party agreement that their response was very low levels of compliance because we are asking not particularly effective, albeit perhaps not always for too much? Would it be better to be more realistic, by the same reasons. Conservative Members and I might perhaps asking people to self-isolate for seven days and not agree on many other things, and we might not agree getting about 90% compliance? I happen to think that today, but there is agreement in this room that the UK would be better, and that there would be higher levels of Government’sresponse to coronavirus was not particularly compliance. effective. We have heard about the financial impact faced by We can see that in the figures, the latest of which those who are asked to self-isolate, and how self-isolation appeared today and showed over 1 million cases recorded not only impacts them financially—I know that financial across the UK and 46,853 deaths. Those figures should support is available, and whether that goes as far as it chill us and give us cause for reflection. We could always needs to is a different question—but disrupts their have done more to prevent those deaths and the upset working life. Their lost income and the disruption to and suffering caused to so many people. My thoughts their working lives need to be taken into account. go out to everybody who has been affected, including The other point is about the circumstances in which my friend the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), people live. Not everybody has a nice big garden, not who spoke of his family circumstances. It diminishes everybody has a terrace and not everybody has a balcony. those deaths to say that we should get back to normal. When we are asking people to self-isolate for 14 days, We should not do that. We should try to protect more we should never lose sight of the significance of what people in the weeks and months to come. we are asking them to do. Some people live in circumstances The UK has among the highest number of deaths that mean that they really would not want to be confined and of cases in the world, so we have done something in their flat for 14 days, because of the impact on their wrong. I fully accept that we did not know what we were mental health and the sense of being imprisoned and dealing with—everyone muddled along and did the best unable to escape or even to go out for a breath of fresh they could—but we have now had many months to get air. this right. The UK Government spent lots on Serco’s If we are going to have a successful test and trace ineffective track and trace system, and money has been system, we need guidelines that are easy for people to thrown at the wrong kind of PPE that could not be follow and buy in to. I do believe that the vast majority used, yet we still do not have a proper plan. We saw the of people in this country get it and want to play their image of the Prime Minister hustling on to the television part. If they are asked to self-isolate, they need to and disrupting Saturday night’s TV schedules because understand the rules and the guidelines, and those rules his plans had been leaked, only for him to announce 85WH Government Response to Covid-193 NOVEMBER 2020 Government Response to Covid-19 86WH lockdown not because of Wales, Scotland, Northern reacted in kind, there would have been no need for that Ireland or northern England, which had asked for and grandstanding, and no need for those Governments to needed it given what they were going through, but because be calling for more. It would have been something that the south of England needed it, showing the chaos the would have been put in place in partnership. It should Government are in. not be that these things have to be conducted in the The Government were told time and again to plan media. These things should have been agreed well ahead ahead. Only the other week I asked the Chancellor to of that having happened. The Government failed by not plan ahead, to extend the furlough and to accept that listening to those directly elected Mayors and devolved things are not going back to normal any time soon. institutions, and that is why we have ended up in this Businesses in our constituencies need that additional situation. support in the weeks and months ahead because we I dispute the point made about the ten years of cannot go back to normal. austerity that we have seen. I read an article on the Sectors of the economy—hospitality, leisure, tourism, website of the British Medical Association, which said transport, culture and the arts, conferences and exhibitions, that austerity had actually made the UK more vulnerable weddings; the list is endless—cannot go back to normal to coronavirus and its effect. In an article about experiences because it is not safe for them to do so. In many cases, from the front line, it described austerity as “covid’s the Government seem to have ignored that reality, but little helper”. That should also give cause for thought. they should not do so. Daniel Kawczynski: You always run out of other people’s The other issue raised by my friend on the Treasury money. Committee, the hon. Member for Wycombe (Mr Baker), is the gaps in support. The Committee highlighted Sir Charles Walker (in the Chair): Order. those gaps in its work and offered suggestions on how they might be addressed by the UK Government, who Alison Thewliss: It is all of our money. The Member of course have the powers and the money to do so. The talks about other people’s money. It is all of our money. gaps remain. Those who run their own businesses— We all pay in and we all deserve to have things when we company directors and freelancers—have been advised need them. Part of the situation we are in is because of by the UK Government to take up freelance roles and that. I shall wind up, Sir Charles, because I can see the organise their businesses, only for them now to find clock. themselves with no support and no prospect of it, There is much talk of scientists and different scientific because following the Prime Minister’s announcement opinions, and that is fine. Scientists are the experts in at the weekend it does not seem as though those gaps many ways on this. We should not judge them too will be plugged. The Government know about this. harshly, because we have been finding out more all the They have been told about this. They have been offered time.Those scientists have the experience and qualifications solutions, yet still they ignore a significant group of at that most of us in this room do not. We can have our least 3 million people. How the Government expect opinions on which scientists we want to believe, but in those people to pay their bills and feed their kids I do the end we have to take the best possible evidence, do not know, because they cannot. the best we can, and try to prevent any more people The hon. Member for Strangford mentioned the financial from losing their lives to coronavirus in the weeks and pressures of people on the minimum wage, who cannot months ahead. survive on two thirds of their wages—nor should they be asked to do so. People on benefits are struggling. Sir Charles Walker (in the Chair): Ms Hayes, if you There has been no guarantee that the welcome £20 uplift take 10 minutes and the front Bench takes 10 minutes, to universal credit will be extended. It was not extended Mr Drax will get two minutes at the end and we will to people on legacy benefits—many millions across the have landed this thing perfectly. UK—who are struggling and need that additional support. I welcome the announcement made today by the 3.37 pm Secretary of State for Work and Pensions on extending Helen Hayes (Dulwich and West Norwood) (Lab): It the minimum income floor to April, I believe. If that is a pleasure to see you in the chair, Sir Charles. I extension has been made and the DWP has accepted congratulate the hon. Member for South Dorset (Richard that there needs to be a change to the minimum income Drax) on securing this important debate. It is right that floor, why not to everything else? Why pick this one in the midst of this deadly pandemic, which has cost aspect that needs additional support and extend it to over 46,000 lives and prompted the deepest recession April, but nothing else? The furlough for the self- since the 1930s, the Government are held to account for employment scheme runs until December. Why not their response. It is welcome that hon. Members have extend it? Why not look at the reality we face? If the had the opportunity to do so today. Government do not need to use it, that is fine, but it My hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North would be in place if it was needed. That is crucial in West (Taiwo Owatemi) spoke powerfully on behalf of enabling families and businesses to plan. nurses and social care workers and about the extraordinary I was disappointed to hear the comments made by sacrifices made by so many of them, as well as the need the hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel for them to be properly paid and protected. My hon. Kawczynski). He accused devolution of being about Friend the Member for York Central (Rachael Maskell) division, and the Mayors—particularly Andy Burnham—of rightly highlighted the vital role of test and trace in grandstanding. They are not. They are representing the enabling as many people as possible to live as normally people who elected them. That is their job. That is their as possible, and the failures of the Government’sprivatised duty. That is their role. It is the UK Government’s role Serco system to do so. I want to add my condolences to to listen. If the UK Government had listened and the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) on the 87WH Government Response to Covid-193 NOVEMBER 2020 Government Response to Covid-19 88WH

[Helen Hayes] across the country that we are not all in this together. For months, the social care sector was left entirely sad loss of his mother-in-law to this horrible disease. abandoned, without PPE or access to testing, but was The hon. Member for the Isle of Wight (Bob Seely) forced to accept patients who were covid positive, resulting spoke about the Government’s use of data, saying that in huge numbers of tragic, avoidable deaths. Unlike in they have not made the best use of it, and the hon. Wales, social care workers in England are not entitled to Member for Bolton West (Chris Green) described the full sick pay if they need to self-isolate, forcing many to Government’s approach as erratic: I agree with both of choose between health and safety and putting food on those statements, though I fear not so much with the the table. Now the Chancellor has increased the tax on rest of their analysis. PPE by reinstating 20% VAT, affecting people buying The Labour party supported the Government in face masks. Why have the Government introduced a introducing necessary measures to respond to the mask tax in the second wave of a pandemic? coronavirus pandemic to save lives and to prevent the The Government were warned weeks ago that a short, NHS from becoming overwhelmed. We are now at a sharp circuit break would be effective in limiting infection point, once again, at which R is rising in all regions and spread and mitigating the impact of a second wave. If across all age groups, so we do not agree with hon. anybody has any doubt about the need for that, I invite Members who have expressed the view that lockdown them to make—as I did just a week ago—a visit to their restrictions are not necessary, or that a whole-country local hospital, to see how exhausted staff still feel approach should not be used at this point in time. Nor coming into this second wave. When we talk about the do we agree with hon. Members seeking to trade off the need to protect our NHS, we are talking about those impact on the UK economy against coronavirus spread staff being overwhelmed by the numbers of patients and impact on health. who are so sick and who they have to treat. But when Labour called for a short, sharp circuit break, the Prime Bob Seely: Will the hon. Member give way? Minister ridiculed the idea, and the Chancellor doubled down to block it. It is clear that the delay has cost both Helen Hayes: I am afraid that I will not, as time is lives and livelihoods, and has deepened the scars to our short. The consistent pattern across the world is that the economy. We now face a much harder lockdown with a countries with the highest levels of coronavirus infections far higher cost, because the Government have once also have the worst economic impacts. The two are again acted far too late. linked. An effective approach to infection control is also While the Government have our support for the protective of the economy. The tragic reality is that the additional measures this week, their response to this UK has both the highest number of deaths of any deadly pandemic has been characterised by a lack of European country and the deepest economic recession preparedness, dither and delay, prioritising who they of any G7 country. The key question at this point is why know over who is best placed to deliver, and failing to the Government’s response has been riddled with so heed and act on the advice of scientists. Families and many failures. The UK entered the pandemic with a communities across the country are paying a devastatingly PPE stockpile which had been depleted and without high price for their incompetence. emergency supply chains in place, leaving health and social care workers unprotected at the frontline of infection Sir Charles Walker (in the Chair): Paymaster General, control. Despite the horrific data and dire warnings could you leave two minutes at the end for the proposer from Italy, Spain and France—and the knowledge that of the debate? Thank you. the pandemic in the UK was running just weeks behind them—the Government were too slow to introduce the first lockdown. 3.43 pm When faced with the challenge of PPE and ventilator The Paymaster General (Penny Mordaunt): It is a procurement, and the need to establish a test, trace and pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Charles. isolate system, the Government instinctively turned to In making a speech, the advice is usually say what you outsourcing companies—many without any proven track are going to say, say it, and then say what you have said, record of delivering the goods and services required but I am going to start by saying what I am not going to but, on too many occasions, with strong links to the say, because I understand that the specific rules around Tory party—instead of looking to public services. this next lockdown were signed off during the course of Documents leaked this week reveal Cabinet Office contacts this debate, and will be published at around 5 o’clock and others were helping VIPs sell PPE to the Government this evening. Some hon. Members have mentioned specifics outside normal procurement channels.Contact tracing—the for places of worship, golf, gyms, and so forth. So as not critical tool in preventing infection spread—was suspended to give Members duff information, I will not go into in mid-March, at which point the Government lost detail on that, except to say that I have had daily calls control of the virus. Since it started again, the privatised with Members. I have been listening to concerns from Serco test and trace system has entirely failed to reach many Members about those issues and ensuring that the baseline hurdle of reliable—still less the promise of those taking decisions and designing policies are very world-beating—while much more effective contact tracing aware of the concerns of Members on both sides of the has been done by hard pressed local public health teams. House, as well as the importance of things such as The hon. Member for Ipswich (Tom Hunt) highlighted exercise to people’s wellbeing, alongside the importance issues around compliance. Yet in failing to hold his of visits to family members in homes and the isolated closest adviser, Dominic Cummings, to the same rules elderly in particular. that he had ordered the public to obey, the Prime I am also not going to go into detail about the general Minister himself undermined public trust and confidence issues that my hon. Friends the Members for Ipswich in his approach, confirming in the minds of residents (Tom Hunt) and for Wycombe (Mr Baker) and the hon. 89WH Government Response to Covid-193 NOVEMBER 2020 Government Response to Covid-19 90WH

Members for Coventry North West (Taiwo Owatemi) be an economic hit, too: if people are poorer, they are and for York Central (Rachael Maskell) have raised likely to suffer the long-term effects of mental and physical about testing, track and trace and PPE. Those issues poor health. have been well rehearsed, and those Members’ points However, the Government argue that the price of not have been well made and will certainly be listened to. pursuing this course of action would be greater than the I want to get to the heart of this matter, and of the damage I have outlined. The bottom line is that if the issue that was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for NHS becomes overwhelmed, deaths from covid and other South Dorset (Richard Drax), who secured this debate. diseases will soar, with doctors unable to treat everyone. I thank him for having done so and, in response to his The bottom line is that if the NHS becomes overwhelmed, opening remarks, I will not say that that any Member then deaths from covid and other diseases will soar, who has spoken today wishes to let this virus rip. I with doctors unable to treat everyone. That is the worst regret those accusations that have been made in the past outcome from the negatives I have outlined. about people who are sceptical of the Government’s The strategy that the Government are pursing would approach. None of wants to let this virus rip. All of us indicate that that also has consequences for the future understand how devastating it is; many of us have had of healthcare spend and policy. Whatever criticisms are bereavements as a consequence of it. We have all been levelled at the NHS, it is a very efficient system. People touched by this virus, and my sympathies go to the hon. often argue that it could have better outcomes, but it is a Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon). Given that there lean and efficient system. What it has, it uses. There will is no silver bullet on the horizon, hon. Members are undoubtedly be questions in the future about capacity rightly asking whether this is the right course of action. and staffing levels. Lessons must be learned about the That is a completely legitimate question to ask; in fact, future shape of policy in the NHS, as well as the specifics it is our job in this place to ask those kinds of questions. of the pandemic, not just in health but in social care too. The question is whether we are paying too high a How effective will this lockdown be? It will drive price to push infections out. As hon. Members will down infections, but by how much depends on who is know, the Prime Minister has been trying to avoid a making the estimate, as we have debated today. Some second lockdown, and has instead been pursuing local models show infections being reduced to a quarter of and regional lockdowns in the first instance. However, what they are now, but others show reductions of just he has reluctantly decided to take this decision, and 10%, in which case the NHS will still be under strain. It outlined his reasons for doing so at the weekend and will be a fortnight, at least, before people see change. I yesterday in the House. I realise that it is incredibly bad am afraid to say that those who may sadly lose their news for many hon. Members and their constituents. I lives from covid at the end of November, probably have understand that people who are in areas of the country the virus today. that have very few infections or none will be very The Prime Minister and his team think that doing aggrieved by this situation, and I also understand that this now will provide the optimum outcome. They are there are parts of the country that have not just had the hopeful about being able to unlock in December, but, as double whammy of two lockdowns—one gone and one they have said, they are being driven by the data. Once to come—but have been under other restrictions in the lockdown is lifted, as Members have said, cases will rise. interim. That is a very painful place for them to be. It means that a high proportion of the population will Why are the Government pursuing this strategy? At remain vulnerable to infection, which is why some scientists the heart of it is the NHS. The aim is simple: to avoid expect a third or more waves of the virus to be managed hospitals buckling under the weight of covid patients, by repeat lockdowns. and to prevent deaths. Shortages of bed spaces and staff Others argue that the need for future lockdowns is in certain parts of the country mean that the system is evidence that they do not work, but that is to misunderstand already under pressure, and we are told that the whole what they are there to do. As the Health Secretary has system capacity, including the additional Nightingale stated, this approach buys us time and is the optimum capacity, could be overwhelmed by Christmas if we do use of the healthcare we have in the meantime, while not take this course of action. Of course, there are costs capacity is built and vaccines are sought. I thank hon. to healthcare and the NHS of pursuing that strategy. Members who have paid tribute to those working in Many hon. Members have spoken, not just today but health and care, in track and trace, in testing, in the heroic previously, about the consequences of the first lockdown. search for a vaccine and in improving treatments. We know that there were people who did not seek help My hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and —who did not access healthcare. Weknow that treatments Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski), made some comments were delayed, and we know that there is a real human about devolution. I think it is a good thing, but the cost to delaying those treatments and surgeries. price of devolution is divergence and diversity. I know In social care, too, there has been a price to pay: that it has had very real consequences for border isolation for many of those in their twilight years, but communities, particularly for businesses that have been also—this is often not spoken about—adults of working asked to lock down one side of the border and not on age, such as those with a learning disability who have the other. We have to learn lessons about better seen their care packages cut because of the provisions co-ordination from that, and we might try using the understandably put into the Coronavirus Act 2020. same app in the future. Devolution is a good thing and Mencap’s survey of carers across the UK revealed that diversity is the price. 69% of people with a learning disability have experienced Many hon. Members have spoken about the hit to the cuts to their social care during the pandemic. That is economy and the human consequence of that. About a not for any malicious reason: it is because they could quarter of GDP was erased in quarter 2, but in quarter 3 not access daycare centres and have the social contact there were signs of a sharp recovery. A number of that was so critical to their care. Of course, there will factors were involved in that, including confidence in 91WH Government Response to Covid-193 NOVEMBER 2020 Government Response to Covid-19 92WH

[Penny Mordaunt] for low taxation. We need to think about the future—not just about how we can ensure that we stick to our the drop-off of cases but also pent-up consumer demand agenda of levelling up but how we can, through the and the Chancellor’s measures to stimulate the economy, G20, lead the global recovery as well. We are well placed which Members have mentioned. I know that Members to do that. do not want that choked off. That upturn shows that we Finally, I think everyone in this debate will agree that have an incredibly robust and innovative private sector. we have to learn how we can live with the virus. I know All of us are impressed by how businesses have my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North adapted swiftly, to carry on and live with this virus, Essex (Sir Bernard Jenkin) has suggested that we need a from investing in signage, PPE and sanitiser, dealing White Paper on that topic, and I will report back. I with fewer customers, moving online, changing shift thank all Members who have taken part in this debate. patterns and introducing one-way systems in stores. I If there is a lesson we should have learned in this place understand that those adjustments had real costs and, over the last four years, it is that when politics and having invested in them, how aggrieved businesses must politicians are in tune with the British people’s character, be to have to close down. We must not forget that. success follows. That is a lesson that we should bear in Before I close, I wish to say a few words about the mind in the coming days and weeks. authoritarian nature of the lockdown, as people have described it. I say that knowing that the British people 3.58 pm like rules. Anyone familiar with the off-side rule or the Richard Drax: That was a typically courteous and Duckworth–Lewis–Stern method will testify that British thoughtful reply from my right hon. Friend, for which I people like their rules. They like clarity and fairness, but am most grateful. As I said, she and the Government I understand that they also like to be able to choose to are not in an easy position, and I offer them huge follow rules. I know how uncomfortable many of us are sympathy. I am not rebelling in this instance—I am just in having to take these measures. I was asked by the seeing another way forward. My right hon. Friend Department of Health to take through the Coronavirus mentioned living with the virus. We are going to have to Bill and I remember the emotional state of my hon. live with the virus. It is here, perhaps, for the rest of our Friend the Member for Wycombe (Mr Baker), who was lives, like flu and other diseases. It will slowly reduce kind enough to say that he recognised that I might be in over the years and we can mitigate in the ways I suggested a similar state today. in my speech, but we cannot afford to shut down the I know that we have asked our constituents to do very economy and cause the devastation that we are currently painful things, and there has been real material harm to doing. It will take many years to repay; that is what people’s livelihoods and emotional well-being, including, really concerns me. as my hon. friend the Member for Shrewsbury and My right hon. Friend talked about deaths. We regret Atcham said, women having to give birth on their own. every single death. I disagree with the hon. Member for I can assure Mrs Coleman that, in great part due to the Dulwich and West Norwood (Helen Hayes), who said efforts of my hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and that this was a trade-off between the economy and Melton (Alicia Kearns), those guarantees were secured covid. It is not. There is no such thing as a trade-off. As for women giving birth and, I think, were announced at my right hon. Friend said, none of us wants people to the weekend. die. We want to protect those who are under threat from We are asking our constituents to do very difficult this disease while allowing others, within reason and things, and that is matched by how little agency Members using common sense and all the precautions that we of Parliament feel they have over this situation. You, Sir know about, to get on with their lives and to keep this Charles, alluded to this, saying that you felt the only country running. thing you could do was to vote against the Government. However, I think that whatever seat we occupy, whether I offer my deep condolences to my hon. Friend the junior Minister, Secretary of State or Back Bencher, Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) for his loss. there is always something that we can do. What I will Many others have lost people through this ghastly take away from this debate is to feed back to the disease, and I offer all my sympathy to them, too. No Government the need for better and clear data. I looked one wants anyone to die, but at the same time we do not at what the House of Commons provides Members want our country to be destroyed economically, with all with as well as what Government provide, and there is the consequences, including for health, that would be room for improvement. I will do that, recognising involved. suggestions that hon. Members have made. If there are In closing, I urge my right hon. Friend to consider at specifics on data, please let me know. As hon. Members least another option along the lines that many others, know, I take calls with all MPs every single day, and I including eminent people, are suggesting. want to hear their ideas if they think policies are not Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 10(6)). working. I will continue to take that forward. We also need to think about the future and our 4 pm economic recovery. My hon. Friend the Member for Sitting suspended. South Dorset, in whose name this debate stands, called 93WH 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Pothole and Highway Repairs 94WH

Pothole and Highway Repairs or the Royal Opera House to Tunstall, there would be room, but I recognise that for the immediate future this is a quite a big ask. For now, we are much more likely to [SIR DAVID AMESS in the Chair] be competing with comparable cities in the midlands such as our great friend and rival to be the UK city of 4.2 pm culture, Coventry. Even there, according to a freedom Jonathan Gullis (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Con): I beg of information request reported in the Coventry Telegraph, to move, a £700,000 annual parking surplus is secured from the That this House has considered Pothole and Highway Repairs. single most lucrative of Coventry’s car parks. Potholes drive us potty in the Potteries. There is a We cannot match that, so I was delighted that the legacy of decades of under-investment in our roads by Department for Transport awarded Stoke-on-Trent a previous administrations of Stoke-on-Trent city council one-off £6 million highways challenge fund grant for and the current Conservative administration are running the current financial year—that is to say that I was up a down escalator to get them fixed. They are running delighted by the £6 million grant, but I would be more very hard. Levels of investment in our roads have shot delighted if it was not a one-off. up, and the council is investing £5 million a year in the As I have said, there is not an option to increase road current four-year period, which is absolutely pushing to repair funding further locally from either parking surplus the limits of the budget available. or council tax. We have, I understand, the lowest council The sad fact is that even when we spend pretty much tax base of any city other than Hull. We are more than everything we have available for our roads, the city lacks doing our bit by squeezing every penny we can from the the council tax base, the parking surplus and, crucially, city’s limited local budget into roads, but we need more the Government grants that other cities enjoy. money. Of course, the Government recognise that, and the Minister will be as determined, as I am, to unlock Tulip Siddiq (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab): I wish the transforming cities fund money promised to Stoke- to raise the dangers to pedestrians of poorly maintained on-Trent. pavements and roads and to give the hon. Member an example of a constituent who lives in sheltered housing, Jo Gideon (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Con): I am very who contacted me after tripping on an uneven pavement grateful to my hon. Friend and constituency neighbour and ended up with a black eye and a sore hip. I am for giving way. I agree with everything he has said so far pleased to say that the pavement was fixed within and I will probably agree with everything he says from 24 hours of our raising the issue with Brent council—which now on as well. I am sure that he agrees with me that the has just won the Local Government Chronicle “council resurfacing of key sections of the Stoke-on-Trent road of the year” award—but does the hon. Member agree network, not least Joiners Square and Snow Hill round- that when councils have had their budgets cut by £16 billion about, has been a great benefit across the city, and that over 10 years there will inevitably be a focus on dealing we need more of it. Does he agree that the transforming with emergencies rather than maintenance to prevent cities fund bid would provide similar cross-city benefits, them? offering increased connectivity and better public, private Jonathan Gullis: I am very grateful to the hon. Lady and commercial traffic flow on road and rail across the for her intervention. I agree that where local authorities six historic market towns that make up our city? have seen funding cuts, sometimes it is right to question whether or not we went too far. Certainly with road, Jonathan Gullis: I am extremely grateful, as always, highway and pavement repairs, there are questions that to my hon. Friend and good neighbour for her intervention, need to be answered, because I have very similar casework and I feel that in Stoke-on-Trent we always come at coming in from constituents in Stoke-on-Trent North, least in a duo, and normally in a trio when my hon. Kidsgrove and Talke. This is one of those problems that Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Jack can be very easily and quickly fixed, but, sadly, when we Brereton) joins us. I could not agree with her more have to keep replying to constituents to say that resources about the importance of the transforming cities fund to are as stretched as they are, sometimes they do not unlocking some of the potential for our city and to necessarily understand how severe the situation is. So, improving our highways. I appreciate that the Minister I completely concur with her. who is here today does not oversee this particular The reason for that situation is that the current portfolio, but I am sure that she has taken note of my funding formula works against us. The need to address hon. Friend’s comments just now and will pass them on that unfairness is the reason why I applied for this to others in the Department for Transport, which she debate. This is a debate in Westminster Hall, and I think works in. that most people would agree that the roads in Westminster, Such investment really would transform Stoke-on-Trent if congested, are in good order. So I looked at what as a city, with key interventions to improve traffic flow Westminster City Council has available to spend on and to revolutionise the city’s relationship with public keeping roads well maintained, and I was staggered to transport. There are too many pinch points on our road see that in parking surplus alone, the City of Westminster network and traffic is very heavy, particularly at “slow enjoys some £70 million a year—talk about the need for hour”, which is a much more apposite phrase for the levelling up. city than “rush hour”—or at least it was until covid-19 The figure for the city of Stoke-on-Trent is barely suppressed traffic. 1% of that figure—around £700,000 to £800,000 per I have a number of points to make about covid-19, year—and in my constituency there is no room to because it continues to weigh on all our minds, and increase parking charges without reducing visitor footfall. rightly so. It has caused much uncertainty about the Perhaps if we relocated the National Gallery to Burslem viability of public transport and it is in no way a 95WH Pothole and Highway Repairs3 NOVEMBER 2020 Pothole and Highway Repairs 96WH

[Jonathan Gullis] which lack the mileage of minor roads that even cities such as Manchester have. As I understand it, Manchester positive thing. The road workers who have continued to receives twice the highway maintenance funding of Stoke- work throughout the pandemic are heroes. They have been on-Trent, based on the 299 miles of extra minor roads delivering ahead of schedule on a number of resurfacing that Manchester has within its boundaries. That means projects, and they will stay out digging roads and filling a financing differential of nearly £2 million a year. in potholes in the weeks and months ahead. Like everyone The Minister may know that local authorities make else, they would have preferred to have been on schedule an annual report on the condition of principal A roads without the covid pandemic than ahead of schedule and also report each year on the average volume and with it. frequency of all its traffic. I therefore suggest that it is However, we have seen what is possible if traffic not unreasonable to ask that a revised or bolt-on formula volumes decrease and investment capital is put in place. should take those reports into account. That is to say, The transforming cities funding will help us to realise funding calculations should show due regard for road similar outcomes in much better times and help us to type, with principal A roads attracting a premium in power up Stoke-on-Trent. some way related to their reported condition, and with traffic incidents also taken into account. There would need to be safeguarding against false reporting of road Tom Hunt (Ipswich) (Con): Does my hon. Friend conditions and it would be useful to include a match-funding agree that, although potholes, road quality and pavement element for cities such as Stoke-on-Trent that put precious quality are primarily safety issues, they also say something resources into roads despite a low council tax/parking about an area’s pride in itself? There are areas in surplus base. I would be grateful for the opportunity to Ipswich, such as Chancery, Gainsborough and Rushmere, discuss that further with the Minister. that need this extra investment, and when the Government are thinking about such extra funding, they should take If we can get our fair share of road funding for into account not only safety,which is obviously important, Stoke-on-Trent North, Kidsgrove and Talke, we can but also an area’s sense of pride. To build up an area, it carry on providing viable and well-connected sites to helps to invest in such things. meet the Government’s housing targets, maximise the returns from the Ceramic Valley Enterprise Zone, boost our exports and productivity,support our growing logistics Jonathan Gullis: My hon. Friend makes an absolutely economy, enhance our city as a place to live, visit and superb point. At the end of the day, improving the look work, and keep up the hard graft of turning around the and feel of an area improves the mindset and attitude of fortunes of a city that deserves every bit of success in its the people living in it. I look at the town of Burslem, current manufacturing recovery. which I represent—the mother town of Stoke-on-Trent. Outside my constituency office on Tunstall high street, It has the highest number of closed high street shops of old tram tracks have been revealed in road resurfacing any town in the United Kingdom. I see the attitude of works. The tracks have not been used for 100 years. the local community, which has felt ignored and forgotten They are a reminder of the past and also an allegory of for decade after decade. However,knowing what potential a public transport revival yet to come. Filling our that town has and the energy in the community to see it potholes and repairing our highways will not be enough realised, I agree that if we improve our road surfaces for our future transport needs, but it will certainly be and our pavements, it is not just about safety; it is about necessary. To conclude on this point, in order to realise making a statement to the community that it is no both the aims of better public transport and better longer going to be left behind. roads, we need input from the Department for Transport. Heavy traffic has been an exasperating problem for I hope that we will see support for the transforming the city for two key reasons pertinent to this debate: first, cities fund submission and that serious consideration because it causes damage to roads that were not laid to will be given to a fairer formula for road funding. carry it, and secondly, because maintenance funding Bus use has declined by a third in 10 years in the from the Department for Transport is not calculated potteries, even before covid-19, and the condition of according to traffic incidents but on road length. Research our roads and their pinch points are key contributors to conducted by the Department for Transport in 2018 the lack of reliability that has caused that decline. The suggests that A roads under local authority control transforming cities fund and a fair formula will keep made up only 10% of road length across the country, Stoke on the up and help us to be even more ambitious. but that that 10% carries 31% of the nation’s traffic. We can reopen the Stoke to Leek railway line via Minor roads made up 88% of road length, but the Milton, reinstate a tram network and deliver tourism proportion of traffic they carry—34%—was only slightly gains that will help to preserve our amazing industrial greater than on the A roads. The remaining 35% of heritage in the must-see, authentic potteries, the world traffic is carried on the 3% of roads that are motorways capital of ceramics. They say that from tiny acorns great or trunk A roads. Obviously, large rural areas with long oaks grow and that if we mind the pennies, the pounds roads and little traffic benefit disproportionately from will look after themselves. I say that if we keep getting the formula and heavily unurbanised areas with high-traffic the potholes filled, the transport network can run smoothly A roads miss out. and grow. Part of my constituency is outside the boundary of the city of Stoke-on-Trent, and I certainly would not 4.14 pm want to cut the grant received through the transport authority,which is Staffordshire County Council. However, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport I want to see new considerations introduced to the (Rachel Maclean): It is a pleasure to serve under you, formula that would top up cities such as Stoke-on-Trent, Sir David. 97WH Pothole and Highway Repairs3 NOVEMBER 2020 Pothole and Highway Repairs 98WH

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent to covid and the Government’s focus on supporting North (Jonathan Gullis) for securing this debate. I jobs, this will be a one-year review and will conclude on know that he has already engaged my Lords colleague 25 November. The final outcome will help to determine the Roads Minister on potholes and highway repairs in what we do next on local highways maintenance and its his constituency. He passionately highlighted the pride funding. in his local area that starts from the roads and spreads That brings me to how Department for Transport throughout his constituency. It is a symbol of his care funding is allocated, which was the central argument of and passion for his area. If we were to take a straw poll my hon. Friend’s speech. It is fundamental that we have of MPs on the importance of addressing potholes and as fair, consistent and reliable a method as possible improving local roads, I think there would be a vote of through which to allocate funding for highway maintenance 650-0 in favour, unlike many votes in this place, because to local authorities. Only a few years ago, in 2015, the everybody believes in it. I also thank the other Members Department reviewed how we allocate maintenance funding who demonstrated that with their contributions: the and we engaged with local authorities, including his, hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn (Tulip Siddiq) among other stakeholders, to seek their views and input and my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Tom Hunt). on our formula. The funding formula allocates 82.42% to We in the Department fully understand that potholes roads in each local highway authority. The remaining and other road defects are a major headache for everyone 17% or so takes into account bridges with a span of and the consequences of a deteriorating local road 1.5 metres or more and lighting columns. network are truly significant for all road users. They The formula does indeed take into account the road impact local economic performance, resulting in directly type. Principal roads, or A roads, which might generally attributable costs to taxpayers, either through the rising be expected to have a higher rate of traffic, account for costs of deferred work or through a more reactive approach 9% of all road lengths in England, based on 2019 road that does not represent good value for money in the statistics. The funding formula allocated to A roads is long term. We all want our local road network to be 27.47%, which is approximately three times the amount improved, and that is why the Department has provided if allocated on road length alone, and approximately a over £7.1 billion in local highways maintenance funding further 55% of funding goes towards minor roads, or B, between 2015 and 2021. My hon. Friend the Member C and U roads, which make up 88% of all roads in for Stoke-on-Trent North will undoubtedly be aware of England. Budget 2020’s pothole fund, with over £1.5 million this The formula does not provide weighting based on the year to help to fix potholes and resurface roads in Stoke. condition of the network, as that might create an incentive As he said, the Government have provided Stoke-on-Trent to selectively maintain the road network in ways other City Council over £5 million through the transport than following asset management principles. Basing infrastructure investment fund, which includes this funding funding on traffic flow might create an incentive to allocation, for highway maintenance for this financial concentrate traffic on certain areas of the network, year. rather than encourage optimum flow. Traffic volume For our part, we have allocated part of our funding and type is just one part of road deterioration. Weather to local authorities based on the level that they themselves events such as flooding and freezing temperatures play have reached on the path to what we consider an a large part, along with the quality of road maintenance adequate asset management plan. That has been driven and repair work being undertaken in the first place. by the highways maintenance incentive funding element Manchester City Council does not receive twice the and corresponding self-assessment exercise, in which maintenance funding. If it did, My hon. Friend would Stoke-on-Trent has participated since its inception. On be right to point out how unfair that is. Manchester has bids, I noted my hon. Friend’s mention of the potential nearly 20 miles more of A roads and nearly 300 miles of to power up Stoke-on-Trent through the transforming minor roads. Its highways maintenance block funding cities fund. The Department was very glad to receive allocation in 2020-21 was just over £3 million, in comparison Stoke-on Trent City Council’s revised transforming cities with Stoke’s £1.9 million. Stoke received approximately business case in October. I can confirm that officials are 62.5% of what Manchester receives, based on formula carefully reviewing it and the Department expects to allocation. make a decision later this month. Clearly, any funding formula that a Department has Road maintenance funding comes from several different could be controversial, but our view is that the funding streams. Locally, that can be from sources of revenue formula at present is the fairest and most equitable and that local authorities raise themselves. My hon. Friend consistent for all local authorities. More importantly alluded to some of those challenges in his area. It also than what we believe, the method has had input from, comes from central Government. The Department for and the prior agreement of, local authorities. However, Transport provides capital maintenance expenditure, as we get further clarity on the outcome of the spending which is primarily devoted to the structural renewal of review, the Department may decide to reassess whether highway assets. The Ministry of Housing, Communities the current funding approach is still the best option, and Local Government provides revenue maintenance whether we should continue with aspects such as the expenditure through its revenue support grant, which incentive element or the challenge fund, or whether we mainly covers the routine works required to keep the look at other ways to target funding, including formula highways serviceable and other reactive measures, such funding, effectively. as gully cleaning and gritting and salting the roads in Debates such as this are helpful as they highlight the the winter. problems and challenges on the ground. We will be As my hon. Friend knows, the Government are still looking at input such as this and the views of local preparing for our ongoing spending review process, in highways authorities as part of the overall process. which we will seek to determine future allocations for My noble Friend in the other place, the Roads Minister, these funding streams. In order to prioritise the response will be happy to engage further if that would be helpful. 99WH Pothole and Highway Repairs 3 NOVEMBER 2020 100WH

[Rachel Maclean] Syria: Humanitarian Situation

In short, it is essential that potholes and defects are 4.28 pm repaired correctly the first time to make our roads fit for the future. The Government’s national guidance is helping Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): I beg to move, authorities to apply best practice in that crucial work. That this House has considered the humanitarian situation in That is why the Department commissioned “Potholes: Syria. a repair guide” by the Association of Directors of In 2015, I first became aware of Syrian citizen journalist, Environment, Economy, Planning and Transport, which and now BAFTA-award winning director,Waad Al-Kateab. was published in March 2019, following the intense Ben de Pear, the editor of “Channel 4 News”, texted me weather of the 2017-18 winter. Such guidance should be with words to the effect of, “Ali, you have got to watch used alongside a risk-based approach, as noted in the our report from a citizen journalist in Aleppo.” I tuned “Well-managed highways infrastructure”code of practice in and, with horrified disbelief, saw Waad, a film-maker by the UK Roads Liaison Group. and mum, show the violent attacks that families in Aleppo were going through. Her images shook this There is unfortunately a backlog of repairs, and the country. Bombs were falling on hospitals. We saw it, but recent winter has not made the situation any better. the bombing went on and on, from Aleppo to Idlib and That backlog is a legacy of past underinvestment, which beyond. This debate is crucial. some hon. Members have highlighted, and we are seeking to correct it. The effect hitherto is that roads have been I begin by thanking an number of colleagues who improving, at least until this year’s series of cold snaps. have always supported efforts to protect Syrian civilians. My hon. Friend will know from the road condition The right hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr Mitchell), statistics that A, B and C roads combined have seen a who is not here at the moment, was, alongside Jo Cox, a gradual improvement, and that fewer roads have been founding member of the all-party parliamentary group considered for maintenance in the past five years. for friends of Syria. When he speaks, I encourage the Minister to listen. The Chair of the Foreign Affairs However, we strongly believe that more can and Committee, the hon. Member for Tonbridge and Malling should be done, and we intend to do more. We therefore (Tom Tugendhat), co-wrote “The Cost of Doing Nothing” champion the need for proper planned preventive with Jo, a vital report that underpins so much of what I maintenance, based on seeing the road not merely as will say. As that report points out, what is still required something that needs to be topped up periodically from from the UK today is an atrocity prevention strategy time to time but as a recognised asset subject to proper with civilian protection at its heart. I thank other Members capital asset management principles. It is clear that for coming to discuss Syria today. organisations that have adopted those principles can demonstrate benefits, in terms of financial efficiency, I also thank the team at the Jo Cox Foundation, who, improved accountability and value for money. We see along with their colleagues in humanitarian protection no reason why that is not doable for local authorities. organisations, provide a crucial rallying point for those Indeed, the evidence is that it is, and it is already who believe that a person suffering because of the starting to bear fruit for them. Syrian conflict—or indeed any conflict—has the same right to protection as any of our constituents. They are I hope that goes some way towards answering my an organisation worthy of Jo’s name. hon. Friend’s concerns. I am more than happy to try to answer any other questions on this subject, and I will Sadly, our response for Syrians and to what our own certainly take back his queries to my noble colleague eyes have seen has not been worthy of Jo’s name. We the Roads Minister on some of the more technical issues. should always have listened to Syrian civilians. That is a lesson for my party, the Labour party, as much as for Question put and agreed to. anyone else. Regret about the past is not enough, however; we need action. I want to focus on the war against 4.25 pm humanity that is still raging; on the intolerable lack of Sitting suspended. attention towards Syrian children, who account for at least half the refugees; and on how, even now, we as the United Kingdom can make a difference. We need diplomatic, defence and development strategies that all point in the same direction: the protection of Syrians. Faced with existing military and political failures, we recognise the limits on our ability to act, but just because an ideal situation is out of our reach, it does not mean that we cannot move beyond watching and waiting. First, on the immediate situation, it is estimated that today 6.2 million people are living in camps in Syria. Mark Cutts, the UN deputy regional humanitarian co-ordinator for the Syrian crisis, said: “I was struck during our visit to Idlib this week by how many people are still in tents in the mud on the sides of the road, with little to protect them from the rain & freezing temperatures to come”. Winter is on its way. Will the Minister please explain how the UK’s contribution to the Syrian crisis will make life better for displaced people this winter? How will we make sure that the necessities of life are provided? 101WH Syria: Humanitarian Situation3 NOVEMBER 2020 Syria: Humanitarian Situation 102WH

It is very hard to tell how covid-19 has permeated are headed. Without a strategy, the bombs will still fall Syria as the data is uncertain, but given what we know and the refugees will keep running from starvation and about the virus in the region, the medical situation must attack. be bad. I have previously asked Ministers what steps There are 6.6 million Syrian refugees, most of them they can take to get urgent medical supplies into Syria in nearby countries. In Turkey, there are 3.5 million; in and the nearby countries hosting refugees. I repeat that Germany, 600,000. The UK hosts only 19,768—as the request today. It is not good enough simply to cite to Minister will no doubt remind us, we have indeed just amount of cash that we have earmarked; we need to about achieved 20,000 by 2020. I congratulate him on hear how it translates into the protection of life. ticking the box for what was barely acceptable to the What is the Minister’s latest estimate of how many previous Parliament, but what will the commitment be children from Syria are still out of school, wherever for this Parliament? Syrians still in limbo cannot simply they may be, whether in a camp or as a refugee in be left in camps. We cannot abandon people to hunger another setting? What specifically is his plan to change and homelessness. What are we going to do? that? Nobody’s permanent home should be a refugee In closing, I want to return to a comment that Jo Cox camp, so we need to work diplomatically, supporting made in relation to refugees. Her words are a forceful our partners, to come to an agreement about the future rebuke to the people who tell us there is a pull factor status of camps. What is the future for the refugees who bringing refugees to British shores. She said live in them? I will say more about our contribution to “Who can blame…parents for wanting to escape the horror that later. that their families are experiencing… one in three children have Food supply is a chronic problem, not only for those grown up knowing nothing but… war. Those children have been in camps, but for civilians elsewhere. As the Minister exposed to things no child should ever witness, and I know I will know, the World Food Programme estimates that would risk life and limb to get my precious babies out of that 9.3 million Syrians—approximately half the remaining hellhole.”—[Official Report, 25 April 2016; Vol. 608, c. 1234.] population of Syria—live in food insecurity,while another There is another side to Jo’s story. It came last week 2.2 million live on the cusp. Even in the last six months in another short video shot by Waad Al-Kateab, who I of relative stability in the conflict and the economy, mentioned at the beginning of my speech. Her friend 1.4 million Syrians fell below the food security threshold. from Aleppo, Afra, stood at a London airport. Finally, Between 2019 and July 2020, the cost of a standard after 10 long months waiting, she was reunited with her food basket rose by 251%, and by 420% in the north-west little daughter, both now refugees in our care. The video of the country. Economically, that is the simplest has no words but shows Afra dropping bags and, arms representation of supply and demand failure. outstretched, running to finally hug her child, both It is important—if facile—to say that those humanitarian having risked life and limb to get to safety in our problems do not appear from nowhere. The bombs have country. That short film shows what we can be: not just come from somewhere. A lack of food is a consequence a safe haven for those running from terror, but a country of the failure of the international community to protect that truly understands there is no greater love than the those who are suffering. This war is man-made; it is not care that we show for our children. Action is urgent. an act of God. I remind the Minister that when the I will again quote Waad’s tweet: House last debated Syria, on 24 February, he told us no “I can’t describe how happy we are to be together again. A new less than five times that the Government were calling start and future until we will be back to #Aleppo.” for a ceasefire. What is his assessment of the success of The first part of repaying the debt we owe to the the UK Government’s approach so far? When did the Syrian diaspora here in the UK is to listen to them. I National Security Council last discuss the situation in ask the Minister how he plans to listen to Syrians here Syria and what was the outcome of those discussions? in the UK about how they see the future of their This summer, the Leader of the Opposition asked the country. I ask him to respond to that point and all the Government why they had underestimated the Russian other questions I have raised. threat to public life in Britain. The Prime Minister gave a characteristically defiant response. I will repeat that Sir David Amess (in the Chair): Colleagues, we have approach by asking the Minister what the Government only until 5.30 for this debate. Two people on the call are doing at an international level to ensure that Russian list have not shown up, so if colleagues, other than the and Chinese vetoes at the UN Security Council do Front-Bench spokespersons, take no longer than five not stop Britain from standing up for its values and minutes, no one will be disappointed. I call Mr Tom responsibilities. Tugendhat. Our failings in relation to the Syria conflict do not need to be more extended than they already are. Our 4.38 pm country has a proud history of writing the rules of Tom Tugendhat (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con): It is conflict and participating in efforts to hold the guilty a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir David. accountable wherever they are in the world. Will the Most of all, it is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member Minister give us a full update on efforts to collect and for Wirral South (Alison McGovern). She was extremely preserve evidence with regard to the conflict? What kind at the beginning of her speech about several of us. resources have his or other Departments committed to Perhaps I can mention how I was about 80% through that, and what ministerial oversight is there of the writing “The Cost of Doing Nothing” with my friend, process? I also want to be updated on the UK’s approach Jo Cox, when she was murdered on that terrible day in to sanctions because, without the overarching strategy June 2016. It was a very difficult time for all of us not that I and others have always called for, it is hard to see only because we lost a friend, but because there were so the purpose of them. They can be an important tool in many projects unfinished and so many deeds undone changing the behaviour of a regime, but without an that would have been at least the beginning of what was underlying strategy it is hard to understand where we so obviously a glorious career in the service of our 103WH Syria: Humanitarian Situation3 NOVEMBER 2020 Syria: Humanitarian Situation 104WH

[Tom Tugendhat] internally displaced. Some have been displaced since only January this year, when Turkish-backed forces country. It was difficult for many of us to understand took over Afrin—a previously a peaceful stronghold how we could complete that work and how we could that had taken in hundreds of refugees since the beginning put flesh on those bones. The hon. Member for Wirral of this crisis. South was not only kind and generous but hugely The crimes committed against largely Kurdish courageous in helping me to finish that paper and in communities forced out of Afrin include the persistent making sure that it lived in the spirit in which it was persecution of entire families, based solely on their written—one of co-operation, care and compassion. I cultural identity. In that context, I raised the issue of have nothing but praise for her, and her extraordinary human rights atrocities against Kurdish communities in speech today demonstrates that compassion that we all northern Syria in Prime Minister’s Question Time back love her for, so I thank her for it. in February. I asked my question of behalf of Rosanna, However, I want to build on her words. What we are a constituent from Syria who came to this country as a seeing in Syria today is the deliberate act of people. It is refugee and who still has many family members in the the deliberate act of the Assad regime and family. It is region. I asked the Prime Minister if he would make a the deliberate act of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard commitment to stand up for the rights of the Kurdish Corps and its sponsors—the theocracy and theocrats in people not to be displaced. During PMQs, he made that Tehran. It is the deliberate act of China and Russia, commitment to meet me. which have chosen to block humanitarian aid. It is the In preparation for that meeting, my constituent provided deliberate act of others in the region who have funded a significant amount of information about her and her militias, inspired hatred and stirred up violence. But, family’s welfare, much of which was personal and here in Westminster, we must also remember that it is challenging for her to provide. Both she and I were the deliberate act of our country too, and of others in disappointed to receive an email from No. 10 saying the west who have not acted and are now finding out the that the Prime Minister would no longer meet us and true cost of doing nothing. providing little by way of explanation. Will the Minister The paper I wrote with Jo for Policy Exchange is meet me instead to discuss Rosanna’s case and the available online. The tragedy is that although the times situation in Syria for Kurdish people in general? It would have changed, the words do not need to. What it sets mean a lot. out—the cost of inaction and the implication of death The Syrian conflict is complicated, with many different and suffering that follows—is merely clearer, more groups involved and countless atrocities being committed. obvious and more painful. Now, it is not 1 or 2 million That deters the Government from acting, cementing the refugees in Syria; it is 4 or 5 million. There are 9.3 million idea that we in the UK can do little to ease the humanitarian dependent on food aid, according to the World Food suffering in Syria. However, we are making the entire Programme. There are 11 million dependent on world less safe by not confronting and holding to account humanitarian assistance. This is no longer a failed state. those behind the human rights atrocities. It is barely a state at all. The decision we have to take, and that I urge the Civilian suffering at the hands of different armies in Minister to push forward on, is to work with our this long conflict has been well documented by both partners and allies and to recognise that if the UN route UN investigators and independent human rights groups, fails, that does not mean a veto on our action; it is a but until recently the responsible parties have escaped veto on only one route of action. We do have difficult punishment. Earlier this month, a criminal complaint relationships in the region, and I am not going to gloss was submitted to a German court over the use of sarin over them. We know that many of our partners make at gas by al-Assad’s regime. That is at least a step in the best difficult, and sometimes frankly unpleasant, bedfellows. right direction. It brings with it the hope that the world However, the truth is that when we are looking at tens will begin to hold to account those who are responsible of millions of people affected, hundreds of thousands for those crimes against humanity. killed, and refugee convoys and movements leading to It may come too late for many people. The Liberal the destabilisation of our allies and partners in NATO Democrats are asking the Government to work with and eastern Europe, this is not, anymore, a matter of international partners to ensure enforcement of the choice. ceasefire between Russia and Turkey and to make progress This is a decision that Her Majesty’s Government towards a long-term peaceful resolution. The UK have to be involved in, because it affects us here in the Government must also use their role on the UN Security UK. This is a decision that Her Majesty’s Government Council to push for continued humanitarian access by must be involved in, because our allies and partners are funding common humanitarian transport services and being torn apart by it. This is a decision that her establishing shared logistics pipelines. Majesty’s Government must be involved in, because, as Coronavirus and the economic collapse are threatening my dear friend, the hon. Member for Wirral South what remains of normal life in the region. According to correctly said, this is a humanitarian disaster that we a UN report from 2019, 83% of people across both can change. Government and rebel-held parts of the country were already living in poverty. The collapse of what is left of 4.43 pm Syria’s economy means the timing of the covid-19 crisis Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD): It is a pleasure to follow could not be worse. Last month, the Syrian Government the hon. Members for Wirral South (Alison McGovern) introduced limits on subsidised bread available at bakeries. and for Tonbridge and Malling (Tom Tugendhat). The Many families are now risking starvation. At least conflict in Syria has created one of the worst humanitarian half of the nearly 12 million people in Syria needing crises of our time. Some 5.6 million people have been humanitarian assistance are children. How dare we turn forced to leave the country, and 6.2 million have been a blind eye? 105WH Syria: Humanitarian Situation3 NOVEMBER 2020 Syria: Humanitarian Situation 106WH

4.47 pm I turn finally to the issues around trying to get an agreement for an at least temporary peace, while Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab): It is a negotiations continue. At the beginning of the coronavirus pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir David. I crisis, the UN Secretary-General called for a global congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral ceasefire. We have to ensure that our Government take South (Alison McGovern) on her powerful speech, and a leadership role in making that happen as we face a I congratulate the two speakers who followed her. I too second wave that could spread into refugee camps. pay tribute to our dear friend, Jo Cox, who was a powerful advocate for Syria and Syrian refugees. I end by quoting the UN Secretary-General, who said at the beginning of the coronavirus crisis: I declare an interest, Sir David. I visited Lebanon in “COVID-19 is menacing the whole of humanity—and so the 2013 with the international children’s charity World whole of humanity must fight back.” Vision, and I also visited Jordan with the Westminster Foundation for Democracy. I visited Syrian refugees Those sentiments are more important than ever now, during those visits. During the trip to Lebanon, I visited especially as we consider the plight of Syrian refugees in a number of informal refugee settlements and saw the different countries around the globe and the plight of extent of the crisis. That was right at the beginning of other refugees around the world. We have to act together the crisis, but things were unbearable, with hundreds of to protect refugees and to stop the conflicts going on in thousands of refugees fleeing to Lebanon, ultimately Syria and elsewhere, if we are to protect people’s lives. making up more than a quarter of the population. 4.53 pm Recently we have seen the challenges facing countries such as Lebanon, Turkey and Jordan. They have hosted Anthony Mangnall (Totnes) (Con): It is a pleasure to the largest number of Syrian refugees, compared with serve under your chairmanship, Sir David. I congratulate other countries, including our own, as my hon. Friend the hon. Member for Wirral South (Alison McGovern). the Member for Wirral South pointed out. I saw at first I do not believe we have actually spoken before, but it is hand the devastation the crisis brought to people’s lives, a great honour to be able to take part in her debate. I and especially children’s. I will never forget the hundreds look forward to working together on this issue and of children who were living in an informal settlement of many others around development, foreign policy and aid. makeshift tents on the outskirts of a town in the Beqaa We have heard from Members across the House just valley. how devastating the impact of covid-19 has been on The Palestinians, who had fled decades ago from humanitarian work in Syria, already beleaguered after a Palestine and moved to Syria, had been forced out of decade of conflict. Difficult spending choices have to be Syria during the war, into the Palestinian camp in made in the light of the covid pandemic, but our debate Lebanon. I will never forget the face of an elderly today highlights why a reduction in our aid commitments woman, who had been there since the ’40s, and then the must not be one of them. Through our 0.7% aid spending children of the successor generation who had fled from target, we throw a vital lifeline to the world’s most Syria and were put in the overcrowded Palestinian camp vulnerable people, including the people of Syria. Wemust in Lebanon. The plight of Syrian refugees is horrific, not balance our books on the back of the world’s and alongside that, of course, there are the many poorestandmustcontinuetoupholdthat0.7%commitment. Palestinians who were living in Syria and who were then The coronavirus pandemic has highlighted the gender- forcibly displaced once again. based violence pandemic in countries all over the world. Almost a decade has passed now since the conflict The UN estimates that in the 12 months before the began, and we see no end in sight in terms of a peaceful pandemic, 242 million women and girls were subject to settlement, but the coronavirus pandemic has made the sexual or physical violence. Experts predict that the situation much worse. It is vital that our Government number will rise significantly higher before the pandemic redouble their efforts to keep the pressure on those is over. countries such as Russia and China that are blocking In Syria, such violence has been there for years. Since peace.They have blocked efforts by the British Government the Syrian civil war began in 2011, the women of Syria and the international community to bring an end to the have been subjected to some of the most appalling conflict through various UN resolutions proposed by violence witnessed in modern times. Through my role as the UK Government and other Governments back in chair of the all-party parliamentary group on preventing 2011, 2012 and so on. sexual violence in conflict, I am all too familiar with the The pandemic has meant that refugees face even accounts of Daesh enslaving women and girls, raping greater risk. The spread of coronavirus is impossible to them and selling them like livestock. While so-called control in camps, not only in the camps that Syrian Islamic State has been all but defeated, sexual violence refugees live in, but in many other camps, whether in in Syria continues. Just last year, the Syria Justice and Bangladesh or in other parts of the world where people Accountability Centre released a report entitled “Do have been forced out. We need a resolution on achieving You Know What Happens Here?”, revealing the prevalence peace, but we also need to provide greater assistance to of sexual violence and gender-based violence at Syrian those countries that are bearing the brunt when they Government detention centres. The centre concluded have their own challenges. I hope the Minister can say that more in his response about what we are doing to reduce “such abuses are “widespread, systematic and officially sanctioned”, the risk of the spread of the virus in camps and to and that rape is used routinely in interrogation attempts provide more protection. UN appeals have historically to solicit confessions. Nor are these atrocities solely been significantly underfunded over many years, and committed against women. A recent report from Human those countries are bearing the brunt of the crisis in Rights Watch, “They Treated Us in Monstrous Ways”, terms of providing for refugees. details the sexual violence to which men, gay and trans 107WH Syria: Humanitarian Situation3 NOVEMBER 2020 Syria: Humanitarian Situation 108WH

[Anthony Mangnall] English language classes to help them absorb the language and get some knowledge of it. That tells me, and gives people have been subjected by both state and non-state me great encouragement, that a community can adapt, actors in Syria. The report notes that gay and trans and that people from a far-off land can come to a survivors said that they were singled out for sexual strange land and be totally and fully integrated. I had violence because they were perceived as “soft”. These the privilege of speaking to some of them and their same regressive social views contribute to a cultural stories were harrowing and have stuck in my mind. assumption in Syria that men should be invulnerable to As we see the ravages of covid-19 in our country—a sexual violence, exacerbating the deep shame and stigma somewhat solvent country with good resources—I cannot of male survivors. That prevents them from accessing begin to imagine what it is like in war-torn countries the support services they need, and from coming forward such as Syria. Reports I have read about it make it clear, to seek justice. in disturbing language. I have a deep interest in Syria There is no doubt that we cannot allow the people and in the middle east, as do many of us, and that is who commit these atrocities to escape justice. We must probably why we are here. I have a particular interest urgently tackle the culture of impunity that goes with as an individual and also as chair of the all-party the crimes committed. I have long advocated setting up parliamentary group for international freedom of religion a new international body to help collect evidence of or belief. I bring the issue to the attention of the conflict-related sexual violence, and to bring those who Government and to the Minister on numerous occasions. have committed these monstrous crimes to justice. I I raise it at business questions on a Thursday if the hope that today the Government will give serious opportunity arises. It is our job and our task in this world consideration to pushing for such an international body, to do what we can. and to using next year’s G7 and our presidency to do so. A report that I read highlighted the fact that covid-19 That would help deliver justice for those subjected to overwhelms healthcare facilities. In Syria, 13,500 cases sexual violence both in Syria and in conflict zones across of coronavirus have been confirmed. It has spread as a the world. result of an unchecked community transmission. Some Given the prevalence of sexual violence and gender-based 92% of officially confirmed cases cannot be tracked to a violence in Syria and in other conflict zones, we should known case. The Syrians cannot even work out where also consider earmarking a greater proportion of our the cases came from. We have a track and trace system, aid budget to tackling these crimes. Our country spends but they do not have that. They have no idea where it just 0.3% of our aid budget on ending violence against came from, who has had it and who is passing it on. women and girls. As we look forward to the International Worryingly, there are few healthcare professionals, Day for the Elimination of Violence against Women with one Syrian doctor for 10,000 Syrian civilians, and and girls on 25 November,the Government must consider of them 193 have tested positive and at least 11 have increasing the proportion of aid spent on that vital died from the virus. The pressure on Syria’s health issue to support vulnerable women and girls in Syria system is incredible, and 18 doctors and distribution and across the developing world. I echo the sentiments staff working at the crowded al-Hol displacement camp expressed earlier by the hon. Member for Wirral South have tested positive, sparking fears that the virus will on an atrocity prevention strategy: that is something spread rapidly through the camp. That must be a concern. that I would wholeheartedly support. Global Britain In any debate I always like to say, and it is true, that can lead, and it must lead. I hope that the Government our Government and Ministers are working extremely will pay significant attention to the issue now and in the hard to help where they can, so I hope that in his coming months. response the Minister will say where help is going, how 4.57 pm it is monitored and how it is delivered. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the hon. The numbers I cited are almost certainly a vast Member for Wirral South (Alison McGovern) for making underestimate of those who have tested positive for her point so well, as she does. She always has great covid-19. The World Health Organisation and the Office compassion for her subject matter, and it is always a for the Co-ordination of Human Affairs admit that pleasure to hear her speaking up for those who are testing is limited and that the real figures far surpass persecuted, those who are disadvantaged, and those who official figures. Those statistics come from organisations are second-class citizens in their own land. on the ground. In north-east Syria alone, health actors estimate that the true numbers are 10 to 15 times greater As I have mentioned previously in Westminster Hall, than official figures suggest. Healthcare facilities are we have Syrian refugees living and now working in overrun. my constituency of Strangford in the main town of Newtonards. They have integrated well and have We are reacting to covid-19 in our own country, but employment. They have become very much part of the Syria does not have even the basics.It has just 13 ventilators community. That has happened because the community and 59 ICU beds in the entirety of north-east Syria. I accepted them. I say with real honesty. It is the sort of overheard an exchange during the Prime Minister’s community in which I would have expected that to statement yesterday that there are 90,000 ventilators in happen anyway, but the fact is that it happened. The the United Kingdom and that we are using only 4,000. Housing Executive made the effort to find them housing, Minister, could we not send some of those ventilators to Government departments made the effort to help them Syria? If we are not using them, let us at least give some find employment, and church groups and community of them to those who could make better use of them. groups came together to donate furniture and clothes, It is frightening. We must intervene if at all possible and all the things families need when they come from a and send funding to trustworthy sources on the ground. far-off land to a new town like Newtonards. Some Employment has evaporated: between 200,000 and could not speak the English language, but there were 300,000 jobs have been permanently lost because of 109WH Syria: Humanitarian Situation3 NOVEMBER 2020 Syria: Humanitarian Situation 110WH covid-19 and 15% of small and medium-sized businesses we stand and make a speech in Parliament we talk have reported permanent closure. The value of the about numbers, but letting that sink in—55,000 children— Syrian pound is cratering—I use that word on purpose makes us reflect. There is an onus on us in this House, because it is right down. We think that the worst inflation who are legislators in the UK, not to turn a blind eye is in Zimbabwe, but it is worse in Syria. The informal to that. exchange rate hovers between SYP2,100 and SYP2,400 The Syrian refugee crisis is the largest displacement to US$1—that gives us an idea of just how bad it is—up crisis of our lifetime, and as we have heard it has had an from a rate of SYP694 to US$1 a year ago. The price of impact on 17.6 million people. Within Syria the food and basic goods is sky-rocketing beyond people’s infrastructure has collapsed under the conflict: 95% of means—food prices have gone up 90% in the past six people lack adequate healthcare; 70% lack regular access months and 236% in the past 12 months. My goodness: to clean water; half of children are out of school; 80% what does it cost to buy a loaf of bread or a packet of of the population live in poverty; and 70% of all Syrians tea? It must be incredible. live on less than $1.90 a day. The humanitarian crisis, I am aware that we are limited in our ability—we are which is now in its 10th year, now has another challenge, unable to send out our medical staff and equipment as Members have explained—coronavirus. The situation when we are under so much pressure—but we can and in the city of Idlib is desperate. Doctors say that covid-19 must persuade other countries to do what we are doing. is now rampant in its overpopulated refugee camps, As the hon. Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Tom which Save the Children warns could overwhelm Syria. Tugendhat) said, even if the rest do not do it, we should Precautionary measures such as social distancing and do it. We can and must secure funding to send aid. We self-isolation are all but impossible—certainly in a war must share our knowledge of how effectively to prevent zone. spread and treat patients and we must be aware of our The Government have repeatedly failed the victims of obligations when—please, Lord— the vaccine is available the conflict. Only last month, Conservative MPs voted and in circulation. to remove child refugee protections. The UK Government I agree wholeheartedly about the need for an international have, I am afraid, also fallen short of taking on their court to try those guilty of murder, shootings and abuse fair share of people through the resettlement schemes. of women. I support aid for Syria through NGOs that The Home Office capped the Dubs scheme at 480 children are on the ground and have accountability procedures and, by default, have effectively closed it down, although and remind Members that while our priority is undoubtedly there was no legal requirement to do that. By failing to our own constituents we should never, ever forget those provide safe legal routes for refugees to reach the UK who are less able to look after themselves. Our job, my the Government are leaving countless people vulnerable job, all of our jobs is to look out for those who cannot to exploitation by criminal gangs and a report last year look out for themselves. by the Foreign Affairs Committee, of which the Home 5.4 pm Secretary was a member at the time, said: “In the absence of robust and accessible legal routes for David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP): It is a great seeking asylum in the UK, those with a claim are left with little pleasure, as always, to serve under your chairmanship, choice but to make dangerous journeys by land and sea.” Sir David. I want to start, as others have done, by commending the hon. Member for Wirral South (Alison More recently, the Home Office has failed even to McGovern) for opening the debate and speaking with acknowledge the refugee camp fire in Lesbos that left such compassion. I do not think that that will come as up to 13,000 of the most desperate people on earth a surprise to any of us who have watched her in the homeless, many of whom were of course originally from Chamber. She set up what has so far been a very Syria. consensual debate, and that has reaffirmed my view that It is clear that the UK Government has fallen short Westminster Hall is a much better place in which to on this issue time and time again, but moving forward discuss policy in the House, particularly when we are so there are clear steps that they can take. First, they divided. There were also excellent speeches from the should immediately resume the resettlement programmes Chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee, the hon. Member that were paused in March. Italy, for example, has for Tonbridge and Malling (Tom Tugendhat), and from already done so. It is an abdication of responsibility at a the hon. Members for Bath (Wera Hobhouse), for Bethnal time of global crisis if they do not resume those Green and Bow (Rushanara Ali) and for Totnes (Anthony programmes. Secondly, the Government need to live up Mangnall), as well as, of course, my dear friend, the to international obligations by adopting in full the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon). recommendations of the UNHCR, one of which is to I offer a few thoughts on behalf of the Scottish increase the number of refugees resettled in the UK to National party. Since the outbreak of the civil war in at least 10,000 a year. The UK Government must lay Syria back in March 2011 the country has seen untold out clearly what measures they will consider taking if destruction, unthinkable death tolls and a refugee crisis Russia continues to be an obstacle to peace. The UK’s that has spanned the globe. We have all seen the painful permanent representative at the Security Council, Dame images from the conflict, from the war-torn streets of Karen Pierce, called for a lasting solution for the situation. Aleppo, images of small children covered in dust from As a key member of the Security Council the UK explosions—and, of course, the image that will I think should be prioritising the matter urgently, and should live with all of us of Alan Kurdi lying dead on a beach work to unite all parties around the table, in a desire for in Turkey.The horrors of the conflict will have long-lasting a resolution. effects for years to come, but the Syrian Observatory for A protracted solution that works with Syrians, Human Rights has reported that since the civil war underpinned and led by the primacy of UN human begun an estimated 500,000 people have been killed, rights principles, must, therefore, be the way forward. including more than 55,000 children. Sometimes when The Syrian people must not feel forgotten by the 111WH Syria: Humanitarian Situation3 NOVEMBER 2020 Syria: Humanitarian Situation 112WH

[David Linden] at this vital time, including personal protective equipment. The prices of medicines in Syria have increased by more international community, and UK aid must be provided than 250% this year, and a gradual reduction in to the country.I agree with the comments that were made humanitarian aid access at the Security Council has by the hon. Member for Totnes in that regard. recklessly and needlessly stemmed the flow at a time of In stark contrast to the actions of the UK Government, maximum vulnerability for many in Syria. We know though, Scotland has welcomed refugees. One fifth of that covid has dealt a heavy blow to whatever health all Syrian refugees have been settled in Scotland, and I resilience remained, and in the north-west, there are am incredibly proud of that. Up until 2019, a total of only 600 doctors among a population of around 4 2,562 Syrian refugees were settled, which meant that million people. Their work is truly remarkable, but Scotland met its target three years ahead of schedule there is little capacity for testing. People are dying at through the Syrian vulnerable person resettlement home, in makeshift tents and shelters, unable or unwilling programme. All 2,562 of those refugees are part of to receive healthcare because of the stigma attached to Scotland’s story, and we are proud that they have chosen covid. to call Scotland home. If there is one thing we know about during this pandemic, it is our interconnected vulnerabilities. What 5.10 pm happens elsewhere affects us all. Anna McMorrin (Cardiff North) (Lab): It is a pleasure Covid and its repercussions stalk Syria. Many Syrians to serve under your chairmanship, Sir David. live in overcrowded accommodation. One exhausted First of all, I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the mother outside Idlib describes how her family of 30 share Member for Wirral South (Alison McGovern) for having one room and the adults sleep standing up. Nine million secured this important debate. She spoke with such people in Syria live with daily hunger. That is an increase passion and detail about the humanitarian emergency of more than 1.5 million people in the last six months that continues to engulf Syria almost a decade on from alone. That is on top of the 15 million Syrians whose when this conflict began; she made a powerful contribution access to water and sanitation has been disrupted. All about the need to listen to the Syrian people, and I these things are vital in the face of a pandemic, let alone agree. As co-chair of the all-party parliamentary group in the midst of conflict. for friends of Syria, she has been outspoken on this Words and numbers do not do the situation justice. issue, loudly standing up for those who continue to The fears and anxieties and the hunger and exhaustion suffer the horror of the war in Syria and for the refugee are things that no adult, let alone a child, should have to community, following on from the strong words and endure. Think of the terror that children experience as actions of Jo Cox. Five years ago, Jo said that we must they watch their school destroyed by jets, seeing what look to the “best traditions” of our party’s history—our was once a place of stability and warmth reduced to internationalism and our respect for human rights—as rubble—a future shattered as Assad and the Russian we think about the personal role we can play in protecting forces continue to rain terror; their hopes of a secure civilians in Syria. and prosperous future dashed in those bricks and mortar. I also thank my hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Think of the biting hunger on cold nights, or—this is so Green and Bow (Rushanara Ali) for retelling her visits often overlooked—the mental health toll from the stresses to Lebanon and Jordan, witnessing the plight of refugees. that conflict and trying to survive place on everyone, or She is right that a decade on, we have seen no improvements the exhaustion of those constantly displaced from their to the humanitarian situation. I also thank the hon. homes, their communities and their livelihoods. The Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Tom Tugendhat) familiarity and solid foundation that a home gives are for his contribution—a veto at the UN should not, and lost. Families leave behind everything, not knowing does not, mean a veto on Britain’s actions—and thank where their journey will take them. That is the human Members from across the House, the hon. Members cost of a humanitarian emergency caused and shaped for Strangford (Jim Shannon), for Totnes (Anthony by extremism, conflict and a deadly reign of terror, Mangnall) and for Glasgow East (David Linden), for political brinkmanship on the Security Council, and the their contributions. reluctance and failure to protect the most vulnerable or The emergency in Syria is on the brink of descending to stand up to the rogue forces that chose to act with to a new, horrifying low. The crisis has descended into impunity. an emergency, and nowhere is this felt more acutely It does not have to be this way. Twice this year, a than in the north-west and north-east of the country. deadline for the reauthorisation of the Security Council The situation risks becoming irreversible, with lasting resolutions has been used to diminish border access: implications for not just the immediate future but for first, in January, when the north-east ended up with the next generation and the one after that, as well as for catastrophic human consequences, and again in July, stability across the region at a time when the middle east when one of the two remaining borders in the north-west, and the world can least afford it. Some 12 million Syrians at Bab al-Salam, was cut, leaving one cross-line mechanism. —65% of the population, including 5 million children— That delivery mechanism is operated by the Assad require international humanitarian assistance. As we regime, where aid is now politicised, delayed and sometimes have heard, 6 million have been internally displaced blocked altogether. since the war began, and 5.6 million have been forced to How has it come about that we have ended up allowing flee, seeking safety and refuge in other countries. Assad to control aid to an area that he wants to recapture We know that healthcare services lie in ruins, or have and a people whom he is terrorising? What is the vastly reduced capacities. Half of all hospitals and health Government’s strategy for dealing with that, and with facilities have been destroyed by conflict, and there is a Russia and China’s veto power on the Security Council? critical shortage of life-saving medicines and equipment Failing to take on those who act with impunity has 113WH Syria: Humanitarian Situation3 NOVEMBER 2020 Syria: Humanitarian Situation 114WH resulted in a more costly, higher-risk and therefore less The impact of the Syrian conflict is wide-ranging and effective humanitarian response. As we know, the UN horrific. It affects not just Syria but bordering countries deputy humanitarian chief has made it clear that the and countries beyond the region. More than half a UK must work with partners to bring forward a strategy million Syrians have lost their lives and 5.9 million that works for the people of Syria, and doing nothing is women, men and children have lost their homes and are not an option. What can the Minister do to bring displaced across the country, many living in squalid, forward a stand-alone resolution to reinstate access and makeshift camps. We have seen in previous years the relieve the rapidly escalating covid and health situation? impact of winter weather on those people. Some 6.6 million Can the UK be facilitators of such a proposal? With the Syrians are refugees abroad. Within Syria, covid-19 non-permanent membership of the Security Council continues to rampage and 9.3 million Syrians cannot now changing, what discussions has the Minister had afford basic food supplies as the economy suffers and with the 2021 intake? the value of the currency plummets, as several colleagues, Wewelcome the UK’scontribution to the humanitarian including the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), situation in Syria, but at a time of increasing need, the highlighted. funding has dwindled: £300 million was pledged this The conflict’sdestructive consequences seep out beyond year. That figure is down by a quarter on last year’s Syrian borders. The crisis has exacerbated economic contribution. Pulling back now risks undermining the pressures in neighbouring countries and many Syrian UK’s involvement to date and, worse, a catastrophic refugees have travelled to Europe, including the UK, failure to protect innocent civilians and an abandonment as was mentioned by several hon. Members. Syria’s of the values that we champion. Given that the UK is a humanitarian crisis will only worsen while the Assad leading contributor, can the Minister confirm that the regime continues to violate international humanitarian UK will continue to be a leading humanitarian donor law,while it continues to attack civilians, while it continues and that his Government will not cut funding from the to flout its chemical weapons obligations and while it UK Syrian aid programme for the 2021 financial year? continues to hinder humanitarian access. On sanctions, despite an agreed ceasefire for the city Our position on Assad’s chemical weapons use is of Idlib in March, Assad and Russian forces continue unchanged. As we have demonstrated, we will respond to strike hospitals, healthcare facilities, schools, places swiftly and appropriately to any further use of chemical of worship and markets, leaving a trail of death and weapons by the Syrian regime, which have had such destruction. Does the Minister agree that sanctions are devastating effects on its own people. We welcome the no longer a deterrent to those who act with impunity first report from the Organisation for the Prohibition of and choose to exacerbate the humanitarian crisis? Will Chemical Weapons investigation and identification team, he meet me to discuss these questions and how we can which found the Syrian Arab air force responsible for ensure that the UK shows leadership on these issues? three abhorrent chemical weapons attacks in March 2017. This is an emergency born out of civil war and heinous crimes, but aggravated by the decimation of health The UK has provided £11 million to support services, a refugee crisis, deepening food insecurity, accountability for war crimes, which is one of the calls dwindling international aid and now covid, as well as made by the hon. Member for Wirral South. Some the reprehensible destruction and terror rained down claim that our sanctions are causing Syria’s suffering. on innocent people by Assad, Russia and other forces. That is a lie that the Russians have peddled for years. We need to see leadership. Alison McGovern: Ever so briefly, as the Minister has 5.21 pm kindly answered my question, can he confirm that he has The Minister for the Middle East and North Africa ministerial oversight of that evidence-gathering process? (James Cleverly): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir David. James Cleverly: Yes, that is part of my ministerial I am grateful to the hon. Member for Wirral South responsibilities. I let other colleagues know that I will (Alison McGovern) for securing this debate. She has not take any further interventions, otherwise we will regularly spoken with great passion on this issue publicly overrun. and I know that she has written about it on a number of occasions over the years. In the margins of the Chamber, Russia has invested heavily in a disinformation campaign she has spoken with me directly. The passion that she to protect its regime from accountability.The UK continues displayed today reflects her long-standing concern on to implement EU sanctions in Syria and we will implement the issue—a baton that, as she said, she picked up from our own sanctions regime after the transition period. It our dear lost friend, Jo Cox, and I am very grateful that is worth remembering that there are no sanctions on she did so. food or medicines and that there are humanitarian I am also grateful for the contributions of other hon. waivers so that essential items can get in while the tools Members, who outlined in various ways the humanitarian for further oppression cannot. If Russia wants those catastrophe that we are seeing in Syria and enumerated sanctions lifted or for the UK and our allies to fund the pain and horror that so many Syrians are experiencing. Syria’s reconstruction, it must first press Assad to agree I have made notes and will try to respond to the points to a political settlement. raised, but if I cannot cover them all, I invite colleagues The UK believes strongly in a UN-facilitated political to correspond with me to fill in any gaps in my speech. I process as the only way to reach a lasting and inclusive shall focus on three main issues, which I hope will cover resolution to the conflict, as per UN Security Council the majority of what was raised: the human impact of resolution 2254. Special Envoy Pedersen has our full this brutal conflict; the restrictions on aid and the support. However, the Assad regime has not seriously non-engagement in peace resolution; and, ultimately, engaged with the UN process. We call on those who the UK’s humanitarian response. have influence over the regime, including the Russian 115WH Syria: Humanitarian Situation3 NOVEMBER 2020 Syria: Humanitarian Situation 116WH

[James Cleverly] My hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Anthony Mangnall) rightly raises gender-based violence, and the Government, to press for that engagement. That shows UK has supported the UN and NGOs in providing the importance of our aid and diplomacy working direct support to victims.The UK has allocated £33 million together. to help humanitarian partners tackle covid-19, and UK aid is helping north-east Syrian communities recover from Unfortunately, we have been appalled by Russia and Daesh’s brutal occupation. Many countries have turned China’s repeated use of vetoes at the UN Security their backs on the Syrian people; the United Kingdom Council to remove border crossings that are vital to the is not one of them and we will continue to stand delivery of humanitarian aid in northern Syria. The shoulder to shoulder with them in their time of need. loss of the al-Yaarubiyah crossing has already created a critical shortfall of medical supplies. It is essential that 5.29 pm the resolution be renewed and the lost crossings revived. The UK will keep working to ensure aid reaches those Alison McGovern: Thank you, Sir David, for chairing most in need. We will not accept that aid deliveries from the debate as excellently as you have. I thank all Members Damascus can effectively replace cross-border delivery for participating, from the experienced ones like my until it is unhindered and needs-based. hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Rushanara Ali), to those newer Members, such as the Some countries may turn their back on the Syrian hon. Member for Totnes (Anthony Mangnall), whose people in favour of politicking, but not us. The UK has interest in the subject is very welcome, to the right hon. committed more than £3.3 billion in response to the Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr Mitchell), who just Syria crisis since 2012. Across Syria and its neighbours, joined us and who missed my comments saying that the UK aid has funded 28 million food rations, more than Minister should listen to him. I am sure the Minister 19 million medical consultations and more than 13 million will have ample opportunity to do so, as my friend and vaccinations delivered through UN agencies and non- co-chair of the all-party group for friends of Syria is governmental organisations. Our support in Syria targets not known for holding back in giving advice. those in the most acute need, including displaced Syrians living in camps. Our funding helps provide life-saving 5.30 pm supplies such as medicine and shelter, water, food and Motion lapsed, and sitting adjourned without Question essential hygiene support. put (Standing Order No. 10(14)). 13WS Written Statements 3 NOVEMBER 2020 Written Statements 14WS

As the Minister with the Department for Transport Written Statements responsible for accessible transport, I am determined that the transport network deliver an equally first-class Tuesday 3 November 2020 experience to disabled people. The challenges disabled people face when using our transport system are well documented, and while good progress has been made, I recognise there is still more to do. BUSINESS, ENERGY AND INDUSTRIAL I want to see continued steps being taken to improve STRATEGY disabled people’s experience accessing transport. I also want to see our ambition for a fully inclusive and Insolvency Service Performance Targets 2020-21 accessible transport network by 2030, with assistance if infrastructure remains a barrier, realised. I am equally determined that the current pandemic and its aftereffects The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, will not limit our ambition to achieving this. Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully): My right Thus, I am pleased to help mark “Purple Tuesday” by hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of announcing further progress on delivering our inclusive State for Climate Change and Corporate Responsibility transport strategy. (Lord Callanan) has today made the following statement: The strategy was published in 2018 setting out an I have set performance targets for the Insolvency Service ambitious programme for transforming the transport for the financial year 2020-21. The Insolvency Service is the system, and today I am publishing a report detailing Government agency that delivers public services to those what has been delivered in the past two years. In the last affected by financial distress or failure by providing frameworks to deal with insolvency and the financial misconduct that year we have, for example, published a passenger rights sometimes accompanies or leads to it. toolkit, which provides guidance to maritime operators The Insolvency Service aims to deliver economic confidence on how to comply with passenger rights regulations; through a fair corporate and personal insolvency regime and launched the “It’severyone’sjourney”public awareness which gives investors and lenders confidence to take the campaign. commercial risks necessary to support economic growth. It Alongside the update on the inclusive transport strategy, has a crucial role to play in supporting businesses and I am also announcing: individuals in financial difficulty or facing redundancy owing to their employer’s insolvency. Details of the first set of operators who have successfully applied to the inclusive transport leaders scheme, which In 2020-21 and beyond the Insolvency Service will be allows operators to receive formal recognition for the positive critical in giving confidence to the UK’s businesses, investors actions they are taking to improve disabled passengers’ and employees following the impact of covid-19. I have set experiences of using the transport system, and to encourage measures and targets at a level which will drive the Insolvency others to follow. Service to deliver its essential services effectively for its stakeholders. These measures include: A disability equality awareness training package that we are making available, free of charge, for all transport operators. This will ensure that all transport operators, big and small, Measure 2020-21 Target can access a common standard of disability training for their Make bankruptcy orders sought by individuals 95% or greater staff; and within 2 days A funding competition, which will enable businesses to bid Determine debt relief order applications within 95% or greater for grant funding to develop products or services that will 48 hours improve the travel experience for disabled people. Average time taken to process redundancy 14 days or less I am grateful to the Disabled Persons Transport payment claims Advisory Committee and representatives of disabled Issue reports to creditors within 15 days of 91% or greater peoples’ organisations who continue to hold both myself interviewing 1 and the Department to account for the delivery of the Deliver against the agency apprentice target for 42 or more inclusive transport strategy,and I look forward to continuing 2020-21 to work with them as the strategy enters its third year. Pay supplier invoices within 5 working days 80% Copies of this letter and the report on the progress of Pay supplier invoices within 30 calendar days 100% the inclusive transport strategy have been placed in the The Insolvency Service’s annual plan for 202-21 is published in Libraries of both Houses. full on: www.gov.uk. [HCWS551] 1 Or a decision that no interview is required. [HCWS550] WORK AND PENSIONS Minimum Income Floor TRANSPORT The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Dr Thérèse Coffey): After careful consideration of the ongoing Inclusive Transport Strategy: Year 2 Update public health situation and the national working environment, the current easement of the suspension of the minimum income floor in universal credit that was The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Chris due to expire on 12 November 2020 will be extended to Heaton-Harris): Today is “Purple Tuesday”, a day dedicated the end of April 2021. to ensuring that the needs of disabled people, as valued Regulations will be laid and made prior to 12 November consumers, are properly recognised and that they receive 2020. the best levels of customer service. [HCWS552]

3MC Ministerial Corrections3 NOVEMBER 2020 Ministerial Corrections 4MC Ministerial Correction [Official Report, 21 October 2020, Vol. 682, c. 1135.] Letter of correction from the Secretary of State for Education, the right hon. Member for South Staffordshire Tuesday 3 November 2020 (Gavin Williamson): An error has been identified in the answer I gave to EDUCATION my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard). Free School Meals The following is an extract from the debate on free The correct answer should have been: school meals on 21 October 2021. Gavin Williamson: As my hon. Friend will know, we Gavin Williamson: As my hon. Friend will know, we have invested a considerable amount of money in the have invested a considerable amount of money in the opportunity areas, which are looking at some of the opportunity areas, which are looking at some of the real long-term challenges that we have in Blackpool as real long-term challenges that we have in Blackpool as well as in 12 other areas right around the country. well as in 11 other areas right around the country.

ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 3 November 2020

Col. No. Col. No. JUSTICE...... 141 JUSTICE—continued Access to Justice...... 149 Magistrates: Mandatory Retirement Age ...... 141 Court Delays: Covid-19 ...... 150 Reducing Reoffending...... 144 Courts: Three-tier Covid Levels ...... 152 Sexual Offenders: Transfers to Open Prisons ...... 147 Covid-19 Lockdown in Prisons ...... 147 The Rule of Law ...... 141 Female Offender Strategy...... 153 Topical Questions ...... 154 Illicit Substance Use in Prisons ...... 148 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Tuesday 3 November 2020

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, ENERGY AND INDUSTRIAL WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 14WS STRATEGY ...... 13WS Minimum Income Floor ...... 14WS Insolvency Service Performance Targets 2020-21 ... 13WS TRANSPORT ...... 13WS Inclusive Transport Strategy: Year 2 Update...... 13WS MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Tuesday 3 November 2020

Col. No. EDUCATION...... 3MC Free School Meals...... 3MC No proofs can be supplied. Corrections that Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked on a copy of the daily Hansard - not telephoned - and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Tuesday 10 November 2020

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT GREATLY FACILITATES THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF BOUND VOLUMES

Members may obtain excerpts of their speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), by applying to the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons. Volume 683 Tuesday No. 128 3 November 2020

CONTENTS

Tuesday 3 November 2020

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 141] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Justice

Lockdown: Economic Support [Col. 162] Answer to urgent question—(Steve Barclay)

Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe [Col. 185] Answer to urgent question—(James Cleverly)

Food Labelling (Environmental Sustainability) [Col. 198] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Chris Grayling)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Overseas Operations (Service Personnel and Veterens) Bill [Col. 201] Not amended, further considered; read the Third time and passed

Petitions [Col. 284]

Housing: North Somerset [Col. 287] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Rohingya Humanitarian Crisis: Covid-19 [Col. 41WH] Royal Mail: South-east London [Col. 63WH] Government Response to Covid-19 [Col. 69WH] Pothole and Highway Repairs [Col. 93WH] Syria: Humanitarian Situation [Col. 100WH] General Debates

Written Statements [Col. 13WS]

Ministerial Correction [Col. 3MC]

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http://www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]