Third Series, Vol. LIX, No.30 Monday, September 5, 1966 Bhadra 14, 1888 (Saka) CONTENTS No. lO-Monday, September 5, 1966/Bhadra 14, 1888 (Saka) COLUMNS Obituary Reference- (Shri Murli Manohar) 9173-77 Oral Answers to Questipns- -Short Notice Questions Nos. 27, 28 and 29 .9177-921 5 Calling Attention to Matter QfUrgent Public Importance- Reported Damage to foodgrains while in railtransit. . 9215-16 Re. Calling Attention Notice (Query). 9216-20,9266 Re. Question of Privilege . 9221-29 Papers Laid on the Table . . 9229-30 Comminee on Government Assurances- Minutes. . Messages from Rajya Sabha . . Petition Re. Constittltion (Amendment) Bill Public Accounts Committee Fifty-Seventh Report Statement Re. Future of Managing Agency System- Shri G. S. Pathak Statement Re. Accident to lAC Caravillenear Santa Cruz- Shri C. M. Poonacha . Correction of Answer to S. Q. No. 361 Re. Vfgyan Mandirs. . . Re. Statement by Member Under Direction 115 and Correction of Answer to S. Q. No. 634 Re. Das Commission Report' . 9252-54 Personal Explanation by Member under Rule 357 Re. reference to speech of the Minister of ParliamentarY Affairs. 92 54-55 Shri Madhu Limaye . 9254-55 Shri Satya Narayan Sinha . 9255 Detention of Members- (Shri Dasaratha Deb and Shri Biren Duna). 9255-64 D!lhi Pan:hayat S:lm;ties and Nyaya Panchayats B;:l-I1't:rod~ced 9264~ RailWay Property (Unlawful Possession) Bill .9267-9341 Motion to Consider, a'S passed by Rajya Sabha .9267-9341 ShriRane • 9267-68 Shri Sarioo Pandey . 9269-72 Shri Vishwa Nath Pandey 9273-74 Shri Onkar Lal Berwa 9274-77 Shri Hhnatsingka . '. 9277-79 Shri Ram Se'Wak Yadav 9279-83 Shri Muthiah . 9283-85 Shri Priya Gupta . 9285-89 Shri Sinhasan Singh 9292-94 Shri U. M. Trivedi . 9294-96 Shri S. K. Patil. .92 98-9304 Clauses 2 to 8 9307-41 Half-an":.Hour Discussion Re. Grievances ofC.H.S. Doctors. 9341-sS Shri D. C. Sharma 9341-46 Dr. Sushiia Nayar . 9352-58 -The sign + marked above the narneof a Member indicates that the question Wall acrually asked on the Hoor of the House by him. 1641 (Ai) LSD-l LOK SABRA DEBATES
91 7'4- LOI: SABRA the backward districts of Uttar Pra- desh in matters of education etc. Monday, Septembe-r 5, 1966jBhadra However, during the struggle for 14, 1888 (Saka) freedom in 1942-43, the anti-foreign nIle sentiments reached white. heat The Lc>k Sabha met at Eleven of in the district. This was all mainly the Clock because of the solid work done by Shri Murli Manohar and his other [MR. SPEAKER in the Chair] patriot friends. Shri Murli Manohar OBITUARY REFERENCB will be long remembered in his area for his constructive work as ChairmBD of the Municipal Board of Ballia and Mr. Speaker: I have to inform the in various other uplift activities. Sir, HOlll!e of the sad demise of Shri I pay my respectful homage to the Murli Manohar who passed away at memory of this stalwart fighter for New Delhi on the 4th September, freedom and I hope the House will l!H1l1 at the age of 71. join me in offering condl:>lences te the bereaved family. Shri Murli Manohar was a sitting Member of this House from the Shri U. M. Trivedi (ldandsaur): Ballia constituency of TJttar Pradesh. Mr. Speaker, Sir, yesterday morninc He was also a Member of the· First I heard the very sad neWII about the Lok Sabha during the years 1952 to demise of Shri Murli Manohar. a 1957. very unassuming gentleman. an old man of 72 years. who never made himself very conspicuoUII in the We deeply mourn the loss of this House but whose activities of a con- friend and I am sure the House will structive nafure were well !mown to join me in conveying our condolences many. He leaves behind him a . to the bereaved family. mourning family of relatives. I and my party join in the sentiments ex- The Leader of the BolISe (Shri pressed by Shri Satya i'larayan Sinha, Satya Narayan Sinha): Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the House, and I requeet Sir, I and Members of this that our sentiments may be conveyed Holll!e learnt with great shock and to the bereaved family. sorrow about the sad and sudden demise of a Member of our House, ~ ~ q,q~ (~): ~ Shri Murli Manohar. Shri Murli ~~, ~ ~ ~ ~ f.ru;; ~ Manohar was one of those persons who had been drawn into the free- ~ Tf 'fT<: ~ mit ..rtm 'liT ~ dom struggle from the earliest times. ~ gm ~ I ~ ~ f.t; ~ rornm- His holy pUgrimages to prison in the ~~mrif,~~~~~~ call1!e of fight for freedom started in 1921. He participated in all other ~~~~~'fTif$~ freedom movements and went through ~ ;;f\q;r 'I>l1'f it ,!mrU ott ~ ;rfr all the sufferings eheerfully. As you ~ ott I ~ mtf ~ ~
~~~~il;~~..rn:m-u f '" 't'!';nq f~ ( Shri Ranga (Chittoor): I associate mrurnr ): myself with the sentiments that have ~ ~, ~ ~t 11~ 11.11 hrs. 61"0 "@(~f~ lfQ" ~ ~ 'flffiiI; ~ f~1i ,!f<1fT ;;rR Shri Brij Basi Lal: May I know Shri Tridib K.umar Cba1ldhuri: Ia whether some railway workers are it a fact that the Eastern Railway alao connected with this gang? Administration, particularly those connected with the administration of Dr. Bam Sabllae Sin«h: Yea, Sir, Howrah Station, turned a sort of the packer and khaiasi respectively blind eye to the various reports that of the -Eastern Railway Printing were made available to them and then Vorb, Howrah. These two persons it needed the ope.n letter to be pub- "Were also arrested. lished in several of the Calcutta dai- lies to make the Vigilance Cell active and that, so far as the Howrah Rail- 111") ~ifim,,"tt ~ : "f'i9 R'f ~ way Station administration is con- ~, 1!l:mifR if ~Iq"r ~ if; f'TftQ 'f;T cerned, they initially did nothinl: much in this matter? ~ <'I'TT ?:fT m t<1li!Tit 1 is constant watch and the Vigilance t Cell is trying to exterid its activities on all the railways throughout the 'lit ~ mm : 'l6: hl1f';f country. ~i=tfumgmt ...... Sbri Tridib K.1DDlII' Cha1ldhuri: My point is whether in this station, which '¥to uq: ~'l f~: ,.,-r gt, ~ is one of the very big terminal stations ~'HIT'f'I>'Tft ~ m: p,' l'rr I in the country, the ~tation adminis- tration as such has been more or leu inactive aiui it required the Vigilance 111") 'fio ~o f Dr. Bam Subllae SiIlch: Actually, "ITo uq: ~ f~: !f'~;;rr.ft WR: nobody can expect the station staff ~ ~ if, ~~ ~ if 'liT 'W ~ ~ to go and detect Mr. Maiti, who was ~~'f;Tit'lT~f.f; 800f~f~ staying in the house of • dancing girl. Can any Station Superintendent go ~ ~ flI;f~ q;T1f ~, ~ it if Wi9 there unless and until ...... f.Iw q;!ll if ~,~ ~ WR: if, ~ ~ 800 Wg llT~ ~ ~!ilITo!T, Shri Hem Barua: What is the harm! ~~~~if;~,'!l"~ 1Ir. Speaker: There may be harm. t~ 800Wg~m;;rffit~ for some; there may not be any harm CiRIT f.f; ffiAT t<1 'liT 'lim <'I'TT I for otherll. 9181 Orat AfIC1Derg BHADRA 14, 1888 (SAKA) Orat AfIC1Der8 918z ihri Hem BanIa: A Station Superin- ~wrrif~~m.:~m'!iT tendent cannot go to a dancing girl" aouse? f~ ~ if st 'flffiit; Dr. Bam 8ubhac SlDch: I have .~ ~: ~ ~ ifCf1'llT ~, ~ already said about Bombay. It is mm: ~.~ mq; 1ft~, fmm' '4W1T operating everywhere nn the Railway. it ;;m;iT fVt;c 'liT qm "flIT ~ 01 mq- but it will be known only when the ".;f.t cues are detected. ~~'liTttiflif$~? wm. 1fi ~ ~ if, ~ ~ it llT ~ Shri S. M. BaDeriee: I would like to know whether it is a fact that this ~ if llT ~ if ~ 'ift;i flr.ft ~ ? particular gang which is having its network througlhout the country is mf ~ ~: 'm'!1'I' if ~t giving these tickets to some' out- "0 5Iv.f'-lT~~~f ~ ~ ~:it ~ ~ .-To '(T1{ ~tr f~: ~,~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ;;nm- fumt:~om~~it>~ ~ ~ ~. ~ ~~~1ft"~t:lfT~? aam : + (c) (i) For the licensing period S.N.Q. 211. Shri Buta Singh: April 196~March, 1966, arrangements Deo: Shri P. K. have been made lor tnlPOrting a total Shri GuIshan: quantity of 12700 tonnes of rubber. Shri P. K. Ghosh: (ii) It is proposed to allow immedi- Will the Minister of COQlJllel'ce be ately import of 7500 tonnes of natural pleased to state: :rubber for the first six rnontl1S of . 1966-67 and an equs! quantity during (a) the minimum statutory prices the second half of the year. per ton of the natural rubber, and the prices being aetually charged from the (ill) The rubber tyre manufactur- consumers by the Rubber Planten;; ing industry, which accounts for about (b) whether the prices actually be- two-thirds of all rubber consumed in ing charged from the consumers are the country. has been included among higher than the minimum statutory the priority industries entitled to the prices and if so. the impact which the benellt of the liberalised import policy charging of the exhorbitant prices. is announced following devaluation. having on the rubber industry as well as in the country and whether this The above measures will bring down has, in any way, affected our .exports the prices of indigenous rubber to rea- and if so, the details thereof; and sonable levels. (c) the action. if any, taken by Shri Buta Singh: I want to know Govenunent to stop this explOitation what Is the lag between home produc- on the part of the Planters? tion and heme consumption of rubber in this country. The Deputy MiDister in the Ministry of Commerce (5hrl Shafl Qureshi): The Minlster Of Commerce (Shrl (a) to (c). A statement 18 placed on Manubhai Sbah): 17,000 tonnes. the Table of the House. Statement Shri Buta Slugh: What step. are being taken by the Government to (a) and (b). The statutory control bridge this lag? of prices of natural rubber ,.as be,m abolished from 16th December 1903. Shri MaDubbal Shah: 10,000 tonnes However, the mmnnum ori~e rJr are expected to be imported in the next Grade I rubber was retamed at three months and another licence for Rs. 3230 per tonne. The pr~... ell~ mar- 15.000 tonnes is beln!: isued. ket price at Kottayam is about Rs. b5U(J per tonne. It has been eslima(cJ that Sb·l Buta Singh: What special In- an increase of Rs. 100 per tonne in renli '''s ,~e being given to the local the price of natural rubber will in- prot' ner" Oral Annoera SEPTEMBER 5, 1966 9188 8hri Shafl Qureshi: There will be Price of rubber was fixed and what a payment oe • replanUnlZ subsidy & percentage of return is ensured to the the rate of Rs. 1000/- per acre. There manufacturers on their investment? will be grant of loans at the rate of Rs. 750/- per acre to small growers to Shri Manubhai Shah: There are two increase their acreage. Maintenance parts of the question. One is the loans at the rate of Rs. 475/- per acre grower of the natural rubber and the are sanctioned to small growers. The o'ther, as the hon. lady Member Says, Rubber Board is rendering technical the mariufacturer of rubber pro- assistance to the Plantation Corpora- ducts. . .. . tiOlll of Kerala set up by the Govern- ment of Kerala. The Rubber Board is Shrimati RamduIari Sinha: What is maintaining regional nurseries which th~ perce~tage o'f return? will provide help to the new planters. Shri Mauubhai Shah: The percen- At the instance of the l\ubber Board, tage ot' return to the planter should the Agricultural Refinance Corporation be 10 to 12 per cent to be fair, and has agreed to advance loans through the same to the manufacturer also. the Scheduled Banks at the rate of Its. 2,100 to estates and Rs. 1,600 to individuals for new-plantatiOlll of rub- Shri S. Kaudappau: May I know ber. The Rubber Board is exploring whether there is any proposal with the possibilities of utilisation of new Government to encourage rubber plan- areas for rubber cultivation. An ad- tations in the Andamans and whether ditional. area of 85,000 acres will be any actiC'll. has been initiated on that, brought under rubber in the Fourth and if so, the total acreage that is goine: Plan. to be covered? Shri Indrajit Gupta: I find from the Shri Shao. Qureshi: The Deparf- ·!ltatement that while the minimum ment of Rehabilitation are finalising price of rubber is Rs. 3230 per tonne, a project for rubber plantation in th; the actual market price is Rs. 6500 per Andaman and Nicobar Islands, which tonne. I want to know, in view of this will provide employment to about 2000 tremendous gap between the two, what people and will bring under cultiva- is the practical signifiance or real sig_ tion aboJut 6000 acres of land. niflcance at all in keeping this arti- . ficial minimum price which has no bearing on the actual market condi- Shrlmati Reuuka Ray: From the tions. statement it a'ppears that the only p,os- sible step that Government are visua- Shri Manubhai Shah: It is protec- lis;n~ to bring down the exorbitant tion to the growers as a support price, price of rubber is the liberalisation of There is no ceiling price for natural imports.. In view of the devaluation, rubber. But the mechanism of import may I know what the price of the im- ar fillin,l( in the gap between the local ported rubber wau1d be and how much .demand and the local supply is keeping higher it would be after devaluation the price intact. and whether that will haVe a sufficient impact on the bringing down of the Shri Indrajit Gupta: Minimum price. price of indigenous rubber? Shri Manabhai Shah: The mini- mum price is to see that at no time Shri Manubhai Shah: The landed the planter or grower of rubber gets cost of rubber at the Indian port is a price less than that. about Rs. 4:;00 a tonne. So, we do believe that the difference between the landed cost of imparted rubber and ShrimaU Ramdulari Sinha: What the local price is such that reasonably was the basis on which the statutory the local price can be broUjlht down. Oral Answers BHADRA 14,1888 (SAKA) Oral AnsWe7'6 9190 Shri P. Venkatasubbaiah: May I Shri Manobhai Shah: If the prices know whether apart from a few selec- are so high as they are now, I am sure ted places where rubber is grown, the hon. Member will al{ree that we Government are contemplating to make should bring it down to a reasonable a survey to find out the potentialities level. for growing rubber in other parts of the country so that we may not have Shri Maniyangadan: In view of th" to spend more foreign exchange on im- abnormal increase in the cost of pro- ports? duction of n~tural rubber from what Shri Shafi. Qureshi: The Fourth it was at the time the minimum price Plan proposals for development of rub- was fixed and also the fact that a vast ber envisage the bringing in of an majority of tJte producers are small additional area of 85,000 acres under holders owning only a few acres of rubber as shown below:- land, will Government revise the mini- mum price so as to assure the 3iri- Kerala-50,000 acres culturists of a reasonable price? Mysore-IO,OOO acres Madras-5,000 acres Assam & Tripura-5,000 acres Shri Manohhai Shah: That situa- The Andaman & Nicobar IsJands- tion has not arisen, during the last 15,000 acres. several years. I must congratulate the natural planters of this country that ihri R,a.nga: What· about Andhra within three years the production has Pradesh? What about the Arakku val- gone up from 37,000 tonnes to about ley! 50,000 tonnes. Shri Sbafi. Qureshi: If land is avail- Mr. Speaker: Next question. able, and the State Government make it available to us, we shall look into Shri .Joachim Alva: May I ask on" it. question? Shri Vasudevan Nair: Large num- Mr. Speaker: I am sorry. I ha'Te bers of people have taken to rubber passed on to the next questi.)n. cultivation in the rubber-growing. States like my State of Kerala, for instance, because they thought that Shri .Joaehim Alva: The Oppo.ition this cultivation would really benefit gets away every time with the oppor- them and they would get rasonable tunity; we must also have a chance prices. May I know whether now to put some relevant questions. It u tbere is a trend of thinking among but fair that you mould please look li:overnmental circles that they should at this side also. bring down t)le prices and there should be a slump in the price of natural rub- JIk. Speaker: SNQ Noi. 2~. Sbri ber- and for that purpose largescale Madhu Umaye. imports are necessary, and if so, whe- ther Government will assure the in- digenous cultivator of a reasonable and fair price? 29. Shri Manobhai Shah: Tbat was 'tTfq~l(~: ~~if;m exactly the point which I was trying to explain in answer to a previous sup- it itu 1t'F 0If ~~~~.rrUt;;i't~~':" to the point of frightening away peo- ple or constituents from meeting and ~ «0 41 ( I!ft"RT: ~ifmU~~~ l!{i1ft1i: ~~~~~~ ~fW~1 ~if[ff~~1 11ft "'! f~: ~ if ~~?fc if; ~ ~~: ~ ~ ~ fif; lfTif- ~~ ~ ~ ~ ~ m if ifiW ~ ~ ihT Sfl SJIri Nuda: This lIhould be with- lm ~~ S(V;f ~ ~ 1lrof ~ c-a. t ~ if; ~ f.!1nr iAlit ~ ~ ~ f.:rzn:ff Sbri Ma1lJ"7a: He is not telling the ..".~ 22 (2) m.: 22 (3) if; am: Wth.. it 1f 1Ir. Speaker: I am asking him to it~~i{~IflIT~~ withdraw that word. . ~ ~ ~ ;;nft f'I;lrr i!17T ~ ~ f.! ..n ~~ tm: f~·~ ~t('l : ~ ~i't~: ~ omf irtT ~ if ~ 9Jft m'!i mh I ~ ~ ~ mm-, m of\lr 9Jf1 ;iN : ~ ~ ~ it ~ <;fll'fif Mr. Speaker: It may nC1t arise out of this; only the time of the House f~l{T ~ ~'! ~ ~ w f.t; >;fi loT wasted. "l<: If¢ it m.: ~ ~ ~ 'tiT 'tilt 9Jf1 fsn 11'<1: ~;fefT '1ft it ~ fit; ~m~~1 it~'l:1iT>;fi~ iI&i' "l<: ~ ~ ;; f~ ~ it; 'T 1641 (Ai) LSD-2 9203 Oral Answers sm>TEMBER 5, 1966 Oral Answers Shri Daji: Should I bring him to ply to the pointed question by Shri his house and show him? Tyagi he has neither contradicted it -~ nor accepted it. I would like to know Mr. Speaker: There ought to be whether it is a fact that there are something plausible. standing instructions, whether under Shri Dap: This is ",ery plausible the Postal Act or under instructions (Interrnptions) . of the Ministry of Home Affairs, that all letters where the postal depart- Shri Hari VishDu Kamath (Hoshan- ment has suspicion are to be .)pencd. gabad): If he has no orders to be and sometimes even postal stamps are there, then he is an intruderi not put on them just to give a feeling that they do not know when those Mr. Speaker: That is to he seen. letters carne? I want to know whether such instructions exist or not, lind if Shri Tyag:l: Sir, at the time of the such instructions exist in the Postal Chinese invasion, it is in my know- Department, may I know what are ledge, all those persons who were il.hose specific ~nstructions, and how either Communists or known to be many Members of Parliament are Communists, their houses were guard- there whose letters are censored and ed and security police was DOSted telephones are tapped? there to see that nobody did any harm Shri Nuda: The hon. Member mis- to them. I want to know whether those understood my answer. I :,ever said orders have been withdrawn or they that letters are not being censored. I are still doing it. only explained the procedure and that is under the Act. I am not going tl} Shri Nuda: I will answer the limi- give any information as to how the ted question. I have given informa- postal authorities, under the provisions tion to the House with respect to the of a certain Act, are carrying on their , question that has been asked. and that duties, information. I repeat. I reiterate. is absolutely correct. I must add. Sir, Shri S. M. Buerjee: Sir, May I seek that SO far as the privileges of the one clarification from you? This is hon. Members are concerned they not the first time that I have put this should be preserved and protected to question. When this question was ans- the fullest extent but, beyond that. wered by Shri Nanda. I immediately .... here the interests of the security of rose on a point of order, because when the nation are concerned., they tra11- a similar question was put to 811ri cend all o~her considerations come. Satya Naryan Sinha. he said that (lnterrnptions.) •• under the Act they had to do certain things, but the instructions. if I am Shri Dajl: What does it ',1ean. Sir? correct and if my memory is not fail- U this is not being done.. Sir. the latter ing me. came from the Ministry of part becomes redundant. Home Affairs and they have been do- Mr. Speaker: Order order. The ing it under instructions from the Home, Ministry. Otherwise, why should allow me to proceed now (In- terru.ptions) . should the postal people censor our letters. Not only that, I can teU yOU, Shrj Hari Vishnu Kamath: He has Sir, there are 16 Opposition Members already admitted it. whose names are with the Intelle- gence ·people whose letters are regu- Shri S. M. Banerjee: Sir from the larly censored. I can prove it. Let various replies of the Home Minister, him deny it. it appears that the letters are not cen- sored., telephones are not tapped, no- Shri H. N. Mukherjee: Sir, I rise body is shadowing anybody and all to a point of privilege. 'Under Rule is well under his regime. But in re- 227 .... 9205 Oral Answers BHADRA 14, 1888 (SAKA) Oral Amwe1"8 9206 Mr. Speaker: Now that he has told Speaker: That is a different Mr. me I will see if it is proper fOr me to thing. He will have to give notice. do that suo motu. Shri H. N. Mokerjee: Sir, Rule 227 is very clear. Instead of asking for a Shri S. J[andappan: The Minister is request in writing you are in a posi- repeatedly asserting that no one from tion. in special circumstances. to have his department is deputed or posted a matter referred to a Committee ot at the residence of Shri Gopalan; on Privileges, if you think it right. the other hand, he says that it might be somebody 'else or some other agency. It is in your discretion. My sub- That means, it may be the CIA or mission is--please consider it--tbat somebody else. Then it is mora the Home Minister has all but admitt· serious. Shri Gopalan is talking 08 ed that whatever his decision-that is some facts and has represented them a different matter-he does have a to the House. I think, he should be check for reasons of, what he considers given an opportunity to suBstantiate to be paramount national security and the allegations or charges that he has he does have an apparatus to check brought before the House. I would the activities of some of us--right or like to know from the Government wrong, it is a' different matter. This whether the Government is prepared requIres investigation on a proper to probe into this matter thoroughly. leveL There are statements which are capable of being proved on one side Shri Nanda: I have said that we or the other. If during the pendency have probed it thoroughly. No agency of a session of Parliament Members connected with. the Governmrnt has of Parliament of whichever party on had anything to do with that. When the ground that they are, according I said, "somebody", it may be one party to the judgement of somebody in as against another party. the Home Ministry, acting against the paramount interest of national secu- Shrl Hem Barua: The hon. Home rity. are having their liberiies to func- Minister has, by implication, rather tion as Members of Parllamcnt con- admitted that security arrangements mstently and persistently impeded. if are made for certain Members. May that is sa--on the question of ~acts I submit in this connection that he will it remains to be detennined as t) like those Members to die rather than what exactly has been happenmg and provide for their security arrangements the Minister's reply. in so far as it is and all that? Whatever that might be, a negative reply. refers it seems to even letters are opened. Here is a things which happened after the mat- letter addressed to Shri A. K. Gopalan. ter of privilege was brought out-in view of that, a very clear case ha;-in;: Mr. Speaker: He has shown that. been established. you can, if you He might put the question. choose to exercise your discretion, re- fer this matter immediately to ~he Shrl Hem Barua: I am putting the Committee of Privileges. I submit that. question. During the British days also lit is a fit case to do that. letters were opened but they were neatly opened and neatly gummed. Now-a-days, what happens often is that Shri S. M. Banerjee: If you want a they send letters like that. without motion. '" gumming them ... (Interruption) or they put a lot of gum so that you can- Mr. Speaker: Members calmot not open them ... (Interruption). On move a motion like this. the basis of what Shri Mukerjee has said this matter, because of the contra- Shri H. N. Mokerjee: If you teE diction in the statement of the Home me that you will consider this mat- Minister, should I!o to the Privileges ter .••• Committee. Yoli can do it because it 2 Oral Answers 9 07 S!!P'I'EMBER 5, 1966 Oral An.swCTs 9208 was only last week that you' invo:<"d to me in an open condition without thP. rule 227 on your ·own. . f thirik. you flap stuck down, are at least dealt with, will come forward and invoke rule '227 in a manner which is decent and. w;>t and send this matter to the Privileges. repugnant to the ordinary eYe? After Committee. that I find that all the letters sub~e~" quently came closed. Can I not de- 12 hn. duce from this that as a result of the! letter that I wrote to Shri N anda amr Shri U. M. Trivedi: The Home Minis- the subsequent actioo that was taken,' ter has agreed that letters of some it is on the instructions ~f his autho- Members of Parliament are opened in rities and his Ministry that this thing the post office under the provisions of is being done? the Post Offices Act. I have been a victim of it for the last· 16 or 17 years. I would like to know what are the Shri NOlnda: That has no t>earing· criteria b~ which it is judged that Ihe un it. letters of Members should be upened. In my P!!rticular instance-I do' not know whether others also have .uf- 'lfT ~;1i ~cN ~qq : .it ll'ift ~'! fered-letters which pertain to my professional work and engagements ~ ~ ~ 'ITtTT ~ f.f; ~.m, mvif.t are kept back and delivered only when f'RlOO'rU 'fi orR 'lfl 1i0l f~: ~ "iifR W'fT 'lfT~~r,,~: it~~'I~T ' ~ ~ ~t~ ~ !~~...i ! t it; I:~it-!~~Ii!~I '~ i-I ii ~ ~~ ~ !,,~,~ ~~Sf~'h«~~;~~~~'_~_ . i ~ ~ ~ ~. t~it;~jt If; It , /UY 16= 'i ~.$.s:0~.s·1,r;~,~i16=~IW~~ ~~J!i,e~~~ J!'i'~~tIr, Jr. 't:f ~ ~ which have been given show that. In so far as the possible continuation of parliamentary SYstem is concerned, some of them may be behaving as if we are not very much'in favour of the parliamentary system. But that is a different matter. The parlidmentary system is being subverted by the kind ~~:~~<:f~~ of action which the Government is ini- f,.. ~T f..-aifT ~~ ~, ;;.r ~ '3"~ tiating and it is openly stated in Par- ~:r~~~if;T~f~~, liament. Where do we stand? Mr. Nanda says that on account of para- ~~ fm!: ~ ~I\W ~ ~~ ~ ~«m- mount national, consideration. certain 2! Shri BaDga: Are we to understand ment as well as outside. That IS where from what the hon. Home l'.:inister 'the question at privilege comes in. has just now said that no distinction So far as my question is concerned, is being made between one membel' where is this? Is it or is it not a and another and between the ruling fact that this distinction is beu.g made party and the other parties? II that and if so, why? is so, how is it that out of these 370 ~gress members... (Interruptiot.s) . I am prepared to make one conces .. sion. There is a book called 'Kim' by An hOD. Member: No one is arrest- Rudyard Kipling. There is another ed under D.I.R. book, the report of Justice Warren Commission on Kennedy's murder. Therefore, the C.I.D. may be indepen- Shri Bango: .. apart from the Coun- dent of this Home Minister and the cil of Ministers, not even one-tenth of Home Ministry. Let him make that them are being subjected to the kino confession that C.I.D. has to carry Oft of indignities that we are subjected its work. to? Let me say this in illustration of that. In regard to postal mail, the Shri Hem Barua rose- letters of no less a person than one who is accepted here by them also as a national leader and who was the Shri U. M. TrIvedi rose- first Governor-General of this country and who is my Leader toda,. Rajaji, Mr. Speaker: We have had enough are being censored. My letters are on this subject. I will request the hon. also being censored. I am supposed to members to exercise restraint now. be one of the few senior-most amongst the whole lot of members here and I So far as 'discharge at duties by have suffered just as much a- many Members of Parliament is wne<:>rneo., of these members, if not T"ore. Tne I have to see that their duties are not same is the case with my Deputy impeded. If there is some harassment Leader here. Every one of his letters or impediment tJlaced in the discharge is censored so much so my hon. friend of th~ir duties certainly I ".-ill help has informed the House that the letters every Member if any case is brought even from his house are being censor- to me. This as the case Mr. A. K. ed. Letters from my house, from my Gopalan brought to me and I inter- wife, have been censored for such a vened in that immediately. If any long time that in the recent past be- other Member has that difficulty, then cause of the inefficiency or, what you certainly I am prepared to help hin,. call, the idiotic behaviour of the postal (Interruptions) • authorities, the letters were mangieei lin such a manner that she has even Shri S. M. Banerjee: Why don't you ceased writing to me; she only gets my order an investigation into the matter? letters. All these things are happen- j.ng. I can un;derstand if my hon. friend says that in the interest of se- Mr. Speaker: So far as the other curity of this country, certain things administrative action is concerned. have got to be done; he regrets it, there I cannot interfere; it is not my yet they have got to be done. But so job. far as Members of Parliament are con- cerned, the privileges are there; there- Now, we take up the call-attention fore, they are not to be tackled in this notice. Mr. Ranga. (Interruptions). manner. So he owes an apology to Parliament as well as to the country Shri Hem Barua rose- for aHowing that service to make this distinction between Congress members Mr. Speaker: Nothing further. I and non-Congress memberS in Parlia- am not callinll anybody. Damage to FoodgTains SEPTEMBER 5, 1966 Re.CA 9216 m &0&, vanaU I 8hri Hubm ChaDd Kachhavaiya Mr. Speaker: If it is a long state- 1"Ose- .' ment, I can have it placed on th~ Table of the House and then J can Mr. Speaker: I am sorry. I cannot have it clrculated to the Memoers and calt him. then give hon Members an opportuni· Mr. Ranga: ty to put questions lat~r.... ' Shri Hari Vishnu Kamath CHnshan- ~ ~~ Qi~ ~ ~;ft Ilff .. : "11 'U~~ : mq ~iI' <'I'M Of;) 12.1'71 brs. ffi ~~ vrr(t ? if ~')m 8hri Banga (Chittoor): I call the Shri TTagi (Debra Dun): There attention of the Minister of Railways should be nothing here beyond what is to the following tnlIti'er of urgent pub- contained in the Order Paper. lic importance Bnd request that he may make a statement thereon'-- Mr. Speaker: If there is hnything that 1 have disallowed, I would not have it discussed here ... , "The reported damage to food- graill8 worth several lakhs u1 Shri S. M. ~: I rise un a rupees when being carried in open point of order .... railway wagons from Gunttakal to various places in CudapPH and Cbittoor districts of Andhra Pra- JJiI' (,q"i(W" (lfi'l:'IT;:r) ~~ desh."4 ~, ... ~~~, ... The MiDilter of State in tile MlnJB.. JJiI'~ (~n:) :mzm~, try of BaUways (Dr. Bam Snbhac ~a;q'{~f~lIfT'\'~~ I 81nch): The statement is two page!! long. It you so like, II can place it ~ ~'11:: on the Table of the House, or if YOIl flRi<: (~) ~l«~~~'-~~miT, ~ t 7 ... (~;:r) . .. it7l n.if,' If{ crT ~ ~ ~ I ~ ~Ttf;f;r, ~ I ~"1'Tif,'T l!1J'ft I lit) u'it~: i'tu ~ m lIf~tI'I' q~m :~~ ;;m~ ~* ~T I lIt)~;:r;q : ir>T 376(2) ~ lIt't ~o "1'10 ."Wf: iI1f ~T ~T maH'R~ I hr~ ,,'t '(\;n~~l( :,i ~'ft:! m ~~)cq : ~~ 00 ~1il w'q i'f{f ? lFIiT qr ~.,:~~,irof~~ ~ ... (~) ~q~m:~~ ~ ifi1f 'liT ~ ifi1 iR;it if; fu"it ;il:m: ~ t Mr. Speaker: In pursuance of this ~T ~ ~'fW'f $IT 'lilfT I ~ ~ ~ decision of the House .... fiRrt I ~ ~ qm" (mr.r ~f ~ ~: ;;r • • • Not recorded. 9221 Re. Question 13HADRA 1.,1888 (SAKA) (The HOWIe re-assemoka at tIffl/- mitted the correction. So, now, the jive minutes past twelve oJ! the clock) question of allowing the cdrrection through a statement does not arise at [MR. SpllAXI:R in the Chair] all. That is the point. RE: QUESTION OF PRIVILEGE Shrl Bari VlsIma KamaUa (Hoshan- gabad): You did not let him correct Mr. Speaker: There was a notice of the record? breach of privilege against Shri Atulya Ghosh given by Shrimati Renu Cha- Mr. Speaker: Yes; in his explana- kTavartty and Shri Madhu Limaye. I tion he has said- had said that I would announc;e my decision or ruling today. Tnere have Shrl Hem Barna (Gauhati): Whea been five points pinpointed by the hon. was the corection made? Would you Members. The first is that he had said please ascertain from the relevant in his personal statement th2t he SOIUrces· whether the correction wu never knew this Mohit Chaudhuri and made within the dates stipulated by had never seen him in his life; that the Editor of Debates or after that. this is false. The second is that Shri Sunil Das was only one among the Mr. Speaker: Within the date; just 105 employees and by that he hBE the next daY. given the impression that this was an Shrl Bari VlsIma Kamath: It Wti ordinary man and not an inlportant sought to be made? member; that there was a proposal 10 appoint him as office secretary . Mr. Speaker: Yes; that was not per- Therefore, that also, what is alleged, mitted. I have made that clear earlier is not true. Thirdly, the hon. Mem- also. ber has said that Shri Atulya Ghosh has denied that he exerted any intlu- Shrl S. M. Banerjee (Kanpur): Many "nce either on the West Bengal Gov- ernment or the Central Government. han. Members have written to you just to get a copy ot the comeSsioR His assertion is that this also is wrong statement. because of the fact that the investiga- tion was transferred from the Special Bench to D.O., West Bengal and the Mr. Speaker: I have got what they hon. Member affirnls that this was due have written. ma,inly to the influence of Shd Atulya Ghosh. Fourthly, Shri Atulya Ghosh ~q (~~) ~ ~ had said that when Sunil Das's house lilT If'! : was searched, Shri Sunil Das came M~~~ililit ? and reported to him and now he says that when interrogated this Sunil Das came. The fifth is that it was report- ~ ~: !I;fif 'qR ~ ;;rr;f- ed in the papers that jewellery and ;m:r ~(fT ? ~ '1WT '+rr ~ 'IT fif; ~ gold and ornaments were found and 'ff;r-m<:r ~ ~l Shrimati Rena Chakravartty (Bar- Mr. Speaker: This cannot be allowed. rackpore): The fourth point was a As I said the other day. up to 10.30 little different. What Shd Atulya also I have been getting communica- Ghosh stated in the House was that tions and I have read them. This is Shri Atulya Ghosh met him after not the manner of raising such things. Shri Sunil Das's house was searched. When once a notice Is given, when one This is the record. You had not per- Iloes on adding to It-(lnterMlPtion). 9223 9224 , Shri S.~. Ba.IleJ'jee, ;whe~ Y<>\l AAve \,h;!,ve,,no,w~e,r,-~I !~fAI,,~ Ipe to hold reserved your ruljIjg,'f~ ,tpdll¥: ~~- ,~lli\t, .!>J~.~t\l9 Mr. Speaker: I have been toldthaf Mr. SPeaker: I will see what it is. I should get the confessonal statement of Mr. Mohit Chaudhuri ,before the ~o~~~(~),: police. Be it before the ~olice or before the court, it does not matter. The qtlf~PIQ:~, lI'ii 6-7 f~ ~ 1IT1IorT 'If<'f veracity of a Member's statement is ~ ~m ;;r.r ~ 1fTlI'<1T lift ~ ~ ~r not to be tested by the statement of ,~~~m~51~~~rorr>ilTlf t an accused person, tie it befol'e the police or before the magistrate. I Will have to rely on the statement ofihe asq ~ : ~ \~ m ~lf;;ttt I Member first. Only this that the 9C1!Used ,mi;l1ht ,have sald"o~ ,:no 'tIIf,~ ~: lf~ >;fh which I. d6' not lmow-.-before the DOlice bringing ,in others also 'is~Qt ,«r~lt 6-7~~'If<'f~t ... enourh here, for, the ,brelich of P1ivi- lep.l to ,lJubstanti.te.c, that,.Ult! Meml!er , ..... ~ :'IJ11" ~ cfth1t, W' ,has, &aid somethjng,_png,,~i1IIr"'" b'",!,~e. CW ,bptA~l!ife r~,~~ ],~,t:ffi~J ! 9226 JO ~ ~t~ \If)~,: q~'If"r-;r get notice, mention 'of my name must be expunged from tM proceedtngs. f ~~iqlf: l!il ~)~~it~~ I Shri VlISUdevaiI. Nair (Arribalapuiba) ~., 'ffif ~ '3"~ ~ro '@{ ~lr~~;:fl~ ~ f~q'; ~'! "ll '!'If f<'f1'l:q : ~ if>T ~ ~ f"i1;~i'; W,' Iif> 6-} ~~l!ll;~ ,:fTm~"';~ I :q;;;r. ~iT ~. ~o "(1l{ ,!,;r~~ ;:f;f~ ~ IIp.1l' Of ~~Iqlf ~~ .... m(m I ~ ~~i~ : TT 0 "IT~ mq- ;fa TTo ~ ,!;fi~'H'im~T: ~ 'W'f if>T ~q. I '1;ff m t'rf~ f'f> 'IllT ",,;;r.~ ~ I ~ ~ ~ ~ lfnf"IT if; 'flit ~ mq- .r,lf ~ f'f> ofi"r iT 'l~ ;;rr 'f>flOT 1 ~ 'fT 40,000"Wir t? [Shri S. Ie. Patil] go'm (~): is being used here, it goes to the Press '" frim7 and the damage is caused. Therefore, 'I;fl'f~Htf~fil'l I want your ruling that this must be expunged, my name must be expung- ~Ift'~:~itw~ ed from the proceedings. ;'.1 itmij;m-~r~WRIT~~ 'lit q:! fOl'l'(q : ~ lfTlIm ~ ~T ~~~lfT~1 w ~ ~, SW-<: ~ ~ 'I;fl'f ~ 'fT1f fW.n 'fT 1 151'"'l1m mmT f;:rqq (mr ) : iru ~>;fIlI; ~ ~it¢ uq:q:if~ "'~:~~ .-,0 Fq"1iIiji"ti'" ~ ~ ~ fit; f.m 'liT lfTlIm~, ~ ~ ~ ~ wtm:~~~~~~~ lfTlIm ~ ~ 1 ~ lfTlIm ~ TR' ~ij;~~ ...... ~~ 1 'fU~ij;~~lfTlIm ~ 'I§: m ~f"'~~~ ~Ift'~m:w~~~ Shri Daji: Sir, she cannot cast re- ~IT """en ;;rrittfT 1 it m: m ~ flection on us. These words must be expunged. Point of order cannot be <:i!T ~ 1 mf~ ~ ar ~ WIT used for casting reflection on the 'fTf~ o;rrrn it~j"T~ ~~ 1 Opposition. Papers laid BHADRA 14, 1888 (SAKA) Assurances Comm. 9230 (Minutes) acq~:ititm 13.10 hrs. 13.89 Jars. COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT ASSURANCES . Minutes PAPERS LAID ON THE TABLE Shri Siddananjappa (Hassan): Sir. I beg to lay on the Table the Minutes KBRALA MUNICIPALITIES (CONSTRUCTION of the Twenty-sixth and Tweniy- OR ESTABLISHMENT OF FACTORIES OR seventh Sittings of the Committee on INSTALLATION OF PLANTS OR MACHINERY Government Assurances held on the RULES, 1966 8th and 31st AU2USt. 1966. Shri Hari Vishnu Kamath (Hoshan- gabad): Sir, I rise on a point of clarifi- The Minister of Health aDd Family PIaDlliDc (Dr. Susblla Nayar): Sir, I cation, on this item, minutes of the meetings laid en the Table oy the beg to lay on the Table:- Chairman ef the Cemmittee en Gov- ernment Assurances. May I in'lite (1) A copy of the Kerala Muni- yeur attentien te the fact and remind cipalities (Construction or yeu en this occasion, that this subiect establishment of factories or has been broached in this Home, installation of plants or meeted by me, en mere than four machinery) Rules, 1966, pub- eccasiens in this sessien and ,,15e, I blished in Notification S.R.O. think, three er feur times in the last No.. 176/66 in Kerala Gazette session. I am leath to mentien it again dated the 26th April, 1966, and again, The Minister cJ1 Parlia- under sub-section (2) elf sec- mentary Affairs is an amicable gentlE- tion 345 of the Kerala Muni-'" man, but we are concerned with him cipalities Act, 1960, read with here not as Leader of the House but clause (c) (iv) of the pro- as Minister of Parliamentary Affairs. clamation dated the 24th I raised this matter last week and yeu March, 1965, issued by the were pleased to say that you would Vice-President, discharging the have a talk with him that afternoc,n. functions of the President, in The head and front of the offence or relation to the State of of the matter is that the Committee Kerala. on Assurances in its last report has said categorically, definitely and un- (2) A statement showing reasons equivocally that the Minister wrote a for delay in laying the above letter to all ministries and depart- Notification. ments-the Minister of Parliamentary Affairs-asking tliem not to send-·I [Placed in Libral1l. See No. LT- repeat the word 'not'-any material 7021/66] that they ask for, in the interest of Assurances SEPTEMBER 5, 1966 Comm. (Minutes) [Shri Bari Vislmu ,Kamath] Mr. Speaker: There is nothinc in,- their work, directly, but channelise it proper. thrclugh the Department of Parliamen- tary Affairs. The Committee, in the Shri Da,ji (Indore) : Sir, I seek your interest of 1)arliamentary efficienc-y, guidance on a particular point. Nor- under Rule 210. which empowers every mally, when an assurance is given bP- parliamentary committee to sen"! for fore the House, it goes to the Com- papers, persons or records-this is the mittee, and the reply comes lo us wi1h- wordinl( of the rule--demanded a copy in a certain period, sometim~!'i it takes of the letter, which the Minister has mdnths and sometimes it takes even sent to all ministries and departments more tlian a year. I submit. Sir. th~e forbidding them to send any comrnun(- are some assurances which, by the very cation to the Committee on GOV<'l"O- nature of them, require prompt replies, ment Assurances direct. to be Jupplied In such cases, either the Assurance, to the Committee. Six months have Committee would take up t.he matt~r elapsed since March and. as far as I immediately or you take it "p to pro- am aware, that letter is stilI regarded tect our interests. I recall, Sir, one as top secret-I hope it is not n, tcp particular matter, the Question of secret as the CBI ReDort on Orissa. quotas of aluminium and steel given to It has been withheld from the Com- Kashmir Ceramics, belcinging to the mittee even to dat!'. Last time, when firm Aminchand Pyarelal. Two minis- I raised the matter, the Minist!'r of ters made their statements here durin" Parliamentary Affairs said, if I heard the Question Hour saying that. tit; hil"Q aright: "What is aU this? Mem- Kashmir Government had "lot replied. bers are bringing UP things ,.gainst m" Mr. Speaker: Weare not concerned without knowing what I have done. I with any new aSsurances :lOW . . have laid all the papers on the Table". Shrl Da,ji: Sir, 1 am giving you an Sir. I looked into all the ;Japers; but example. I never take up the time of this particular letter addressed by him the . House li,ke other han. Members. to all thp minis trips and departnients, One Minister said' that a telephonic caU which has resulted in making a parlia- had been made to the Government of mentary committee almost defunct, has Kashmir. When we .hC'uted from this been still withheld from the Commit!ee side, you intervened and said that as on Government Assurances. I will soon as the information " r~ceived read out only one sentence from tht> from the Kashmir (}ove,nrnenl it will report. This is the concluding pa~lI be laid before the House. It is a firm graph of their report. They have said: of Aminchand Payarelal. They hav... taken quotas and they have not used "The Committee would also ob- them in Kashmir Ceramics. Wh... n serve another thing, that the issue sll.'all we get the ,.. ~port of the of the letter by the Minister of Assurances Committee?' After six Parliamentary Affairs in contra- months? The Minister said that a call vention of rule 270 tended to bar the Committee from properly ani to Kashmir is pending. Does the efficiently discharginl': its functions Minister say that a telephonic cal! to Kashmir takes more :han 15 days to a~ a parliamentary committee as envisaged in the Rules \'if Pro.. get through. Then the Minister of cedure." Communications should repair his telephone connection. If a reply has Sir, you promised to giVe your ruli.lg been received the House must be told on the matter after consultin~ the before it disperses. What happened to Minister of Parliamentary Atfairs. the quota for Kashmir Ceramics? If The House is vitally interested in thi, facts have been suppresSed from the matter. Lest parliamentary rom· House, why has it been suppressed? Is mittees should become defunct, J re- it because Aminchand Pyarelal has quest you to give your decision or your taken the quota and :1ot 'clsed it for ruling c)n this matter as to ",he the!' h., Kashmir Ceramics? Sir, you must b~haved properly. protect us. Assurances BHADRA 14, 1888 (SAKA) Comm. (Minutes) 9234· Sbri S. M. BanerJee (Kanpur): Sir. WTo ~ 'lf1f~.... (~ may I ... om-) : ~mr.m: ~ ;;f [Mr. Speaker] are impartial. That is all that 1 can asked here, when he lays statements say. here, and he might make some mis- takes. He had no intention uf inter- 8hri Tyagi (Dehra Dun): Is it not rupting the flow of papers from the the duty of the Minister to ensure that Ministries to the Committee and, evasive answers, or answers which ar~ therefore, there would be :10 im.,ooi- not satisfactory, are not given bv the ment to the working of the Committee, Ministries? It is his duty 10 do that. so far as that letter is concerned. How could he discharge that duty un- less all the communications are routed Shri Ranga: Sir, I take very strong through film? exceptiO'l1 to this procedure for tilis reason. Routing is one thing and communicating is anotber thing. If he Shri satya Narayan Sinha: Sir, Yl;'U wants to be kept informed of what is have already informed the House the happening, between the Committee on gist of the talk I had with you when the one side and the departments con- I placed the letter in your hand, I cerned on the other, all that he should may make it perfectly clE'ar that for have asked for, all that he need have the last ten or twelve y"ars the to ask faT, all that vou can permit Department of Parliamenhry Affairs, him to ask for, is to send " wpy of under the Presidential Order, was that communication to bim so that he charged with the responsibility of im- would know it. In fact, even there plementation of the assurances and also, it is unnecessary interference, as that we had been doing It in co- far as I can see, because, 'liter all, we ordination with all the Ministries. are not taking the Leader of tbe For the last 10 or 12 years this House, or the Minister af Parliamen- has been the convention, this has been tary Affairs, to task for each and the practice. Somehow, I do not every thing that is being done bet- know with what intention, the Com- ween the Committee and the Ministrie~. mittee wrote a letter to all the Minis- But, since We wish to be charitable to tries. On that, I requested the Minis- him, I am prepared to accept that. All tries, this practice which you have that he could have asked for un that been following all these ten years of he would be justified in asking for is sending letters to the CGIIIlmittee, let to Jet copies of those ccmmunications that be through the proper channel of to be sent to him; not that they should the Department of Parliamentar)' be routed through him. I am very un- Affairs. I never challenged the right happy about it. That is my only of the Ministries to write ;etters to point. the Committee. It is their fundamen- tal right. You have the right t:J walk The Minister of Parliamentary on the road. But that does not mean ~ and Communications (Shri that you can disregard the traffic rules Satya Narayan Sinha): rose- and drive or walk GIn the middle cf the road. You haVe to cb3erve the Shri Ranga: Please resume your seat rules. Therefore, I wanted the MinL<- while I am speaking. I am r.ot yield- tries to write to the Committee through ing. After all. you are seeing how the proper channel. I have simply difficult it is to maintain order and stated that instead of sending letters yOU would be able to maintain order direct, they should be sent through the and we would be expected proper ('hannel. The Department is to heJp you tt> maintain order put on the mat in the Committee. I when you create an impression am put on the mat in the Committee in our minds that the scales are being and in the House. So, I wanted to held absolutely even. You find fault know what correspondence is taking with us, when we go wrong. When place between the Committee and the they go wrong, then also you must find Ministries. I wanted the ,.>roper chan- fault with them, so that an impression nel to be observed in such correspon- would be created on o'ur .ide that you dence. Nothing wrong has been done. 92 37 AssuTances BHADRA 14,1888 (SAKA) Comm. (Minutes) Shri H. N. Mukerjce (Calcutta Cen- mittee as well as the Leader cf th" tral): A Parliamentary Committee is House. So affected by this order that it has put it on record, quoting this letter. Shrf Barf Vishnu Kamath: Ii the The Minister has just now given an working of a Parliamentary C..orn- impression which is different from mittee is impeded by the action (.f what you have conveyed to us, and any Minister, or anybody else, if it i& far from feeling any regret for having prevented from functioning in accor- trodden on the corns of a Committee dance with the Rules of Procedure be- of Parliament, he now sayS that he cause of the action of somebody, then, did the right thing. while the Com- I submit in all humility, the action of mittee complains to Us in its report the Minister of Parliamentary AJlairs that he did not do the right thing and ame-unts to, is tantamount to a breac.'" that he stopped the flow of communi- of privilege. Rule 270 of the Rules ot cation. . . . (Interruptions). Procedure says: Mr. Speaker: I will see that the "A Committee shall have p<>wer Committee is not impeded in its work to send for persons, papers and .... (Interruptions.) records." Shrf H. N. Mukerjee: What about There is no proviso here which sug- him? He is the Leader of the House; gests that these papers may be rou ted he is the Minister of Parliamentary through any cha~l. Affairs. If he talks in this fashion, if he says he did the right thing when Mr. Speaker: I will look into it. the Parliamentary Committee says nc, that he did not do the right thin~, let Shri Barf Vishnu Kamath: If neces- him be reprimanded, let him be shown sary, copies of the letters addressed the plaCe which he deserves ...... to the Committee may go to him. (InteTTUptions) . Mr. Speaker: I will see that the Sbri Tyagi: The Leader of the House Committee is not impeded in the dis- has not only to ~ive answers but he charge of its functions .. " (InteTT1Lp- has also to see that the rights of the tions). House are maintained. It is for that purpose that he ordered the Ministries Shri Ranga: You must show your ~ send the correspondence through him indulgence to Us because I am not so that he might see ..... satisfied with the way in which this thing is being tackled. It must be stated Shri Ranga: What for? quite clearly. The Committee is within its rights in writing to Shri Tyagi: So that he might see the ministries and obtaining that evasive answers are not given and their replies directly without that the requirements of the Committee having these replies routed through the are satisfied. This letter is aimed to Department of Parliamentary Affairs see that no Ministry sends any replies which, according to me, is an anachro- to the Committee which are evasive nism and is unnecessary. It ~as creat- in nature, so that a Parliamentary ed for SOme purpose known only to Committee can function well. It was the creater at that time. Anyhow, it the duty of the Leader of the House is there; but it can only be entitled to to see that the requirements of the receive a copy of these replies but they Committee are met by every Mintstry. should never be sent throu~h tne It was for that purpose that the Department of Parliament Affairs. It Leader of the House issued that letter. you ¥e not prepared to agree with us, for God's sake take some time for Mr. Speaker: I wilI have consulta- yourself and assert the authority ot tien with the Chairman of the Com- this House. 92 39 Assurances SEPl'EMBER5,1966 Comm. (Minutes) Mr. Speaker: That is what I am say- ing and still Shri Ranga is reminding 'i!fam ~"mf : !fi! ~ ~) ~ me. I will see that the work of the t f",,..-) ~ ~ ~r ~);;rrli 9fu: wr-ft Committee, its functioning, is not im- ~ ~ ~ ~ peded in any manner. I will consult Shri H. N. Mukerjee: The ~inister Mr. Speaker: Let me pass on to the by making that statement is guilty of next item. Endlessly It i!:oes on. I contravention. You told us that the cannot allow that. Minister expressed gracefully his re- gret. but the Minister now does exact- ly the opposite ...... (Interru.ption). Shrimati Renn Chakravartty (Bar- rackpore): We want a ruling from you whether the Minister has done the right thing by issuing that letter. Ill) Ult«~ l:I'mf : ~ lli~, Interru.ptions** mq- it ;;r"'r ~ R Ill) ~Il{~~ 11m: mq- it Of) 'CT 0 mt ~~~ <'i';f~ ~ iffif ms-mr.; R President's assent. Now, Sir, please ~ ~ ~ ~ lfi! lfTl'ffiT om have a look at rule 97 which says:- ~1f.t ~ ? ~ You will be pleased to see that under Mr, Speaker: If something irregular rule 128 this Bill is well on its way has happened, that too cannot ~ '~"1 to the RastraJ)ati Bhavan for the up now. 92 43 Messages from lLS. SEPTEMBER 5, 1966 Managing Agency 9244 St/stem (Stt.) Shri Priya Gupta (Katihar): It done it. But it is for you to guide the should be rectified. House. Shri Bari Vishnu Kamath: For future Mr. Speaker: Mr. Samnani. guidance only I would like to know this. Is it your ruling finally that the Shri Bari Vishnu Kamath: What is Presiding Officer, whoever he may be, your ruling? What is your decision may let or allow a Bill to be nas.ed in this matter? You have not given even when Members are desirous of or your decision. keen on participating in the third Mr. Speaker: Mr. Samnani. reading and are not allowed, as my hon. friends, Shri Samanta and Shl'i J aipal Singh, were on that occasion? 13.34 hrs. He disregarded the entire House and said that day, "If you want to take PETITION RE: CONSTITUTION action against me, you can do su". (AMENDME.NT) BILL What is this attitude? Is it proper? For future guidance I would like to Shri Samnani (Jammu & Kashmir): know. You have not done so, I know. Sir, I beg to present a petition signed Even on the Appropriation Bill that by eleven petitioners relating to the day you allowed Shri Banerjee to s~y Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 1966 something. (Amendment of the Eighth Schedule), by Shri Abdul Ghani Goni. Mr. Speaker: He need not :1ammer it any further. 13.341 hrs. Shri Bari Vishnu Kamath: It is not hammering, but for future ;:uidance I PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE would like to know. FIFTY-SEVENTH REpORT Mr. Speaker: Whenever the question arises, I will have to decide .... Shri Morarka (Jhunjhunu): Sir, beg to present the Fifty-seventh Report Shri Bari Vishnu Kamath: You were of the Public Accounts Committee on r.ot in the Chair. the Expenditure incurred bv the External Publicity Division of the Mr. Speaker: I cannot sit in judge- Ministry of External Affairs. ment over what he has done, whether he was right or wrong. l3.35 hrs. Shri Hari Vishnu Kamath: He should be guided by you. Under protest is STATEMENT RE: FUTURE OF was passed. MANAGING AGENCY SYSTEM Mr. Speaker: It may be under pro- The Minister 01 Law (Shri G. l!I. test or without protest, but :he House Pathak): Mr. Speaker, Sir,. . has passed it. Mr. Speaker: He might !ay it on the Shri Tyagi (Dehra Dun): He dId not Table of the House. allow it because there was no time. Shri G. S. Pathak: I lay it on the Shri Barl Vishnu Kamath: We can- Table of the House. not be gagged in this fashion. [Placed in Library. See No. LT- Mr. Speaker: I am not gagging. 7024166]. Shr! Bar! Vishnu Kamath: Not YNI Shri S. M. Banerjee (Kanpur): but somebody else. You have never _ut 10 sa,. something about this. 9 2 45 Accident BHADRA 14,1888 (SAKA) toJ.A.C.CaTavelle 9246 (Stt.) Mr. Speaker: After It has been dr- Search action was initiated imme- culated, I will allow it. diately. At about 1330 hours, on receipt of information that an aircraft Sbri S. M. Banerjee: want to say was seen burning on Thana Belapur something general on it. Road, 9 miles from Thana, Civil Avia- tion Department and Indian Airlines Mr. Speaker: Not now. First I should Corporation Rescue parties immediate- anow the general thing and then again ly left for the site of the accident. the special thing. No. After it has The D.S.P. and Civil Surgeon, Thana, been circulated, I will allow an oppor- also proceeded to the site of the tunity. accident. Sbri S. M. Banerjee: Kidl.v tell us Late in the afternoon, a helicopter when. tomorrow or the day after? belonging to the Cambatta Aviation Ltd. landed near the site of the acCI- Mr. Speaker: If it is circulated to- dent and located the wreckage and mon'Jw, then I will' allow it the day three dead bodies. after. The Rescue Party reached the scene of the accident late in the evening and 13.36 hrs. brought back three badly-mutilated bodies. The fourth body could not be STATEMENT RE: ACCIDENT TO located. The aircraft was found to lAC CARA VELLE NEAR SANTA have split up into three parts. CRUZ The Director of Air Safety of the The Minister (If State in the Ministry Civil Aviation Department left for of TranspOrt and Aviation (Shrl C. M. Bombay yesterday evening and is pro- Poonacha): I deeply regret to report ceeding to the scene of the accident that a Caravello jet aircraft VT-DSB this morning. I am awaiting his pre- of the Indian Airlines Corporation. liminary report on receipt of which while on a training lIi/Zht. with three we shall consider whether in the cir- pilots and a lIight Engineer on buard, cumstances of the case a j udicaI in. crashed on a hill about 8! l11iles from quiry will be necessary under Rllie 75 Thana, resulting in the total destruc' of the Aircraft Rules. tion of the aircraft and the death of all the crew. The plane took off en the training lIight from Santa Cruz at I am sure the House WOuld like its Il.15 A.M. with Captain Jung, a very condolences and sympathies to be con- able, competent and Senior Pilot as veyed to the Corporation which has Ins~ructor. Th~ last me3sage receiyed suffered such a grievous loss withIn from the aircraft by the Flying Con- seven months of two fatal accidents trol at 11.25 A.M. was to the effect that earlier in the year and to the bereaved it was coming in to land with one families. The aircraft was fully in- engine off, as part of the training pro- sured for replacement value. It was gramme. It was asked by the Flying the fourth Caravelle aircraft that the Control to hold on and to follow a Corporation had pu.chased and which Viscount aircraft, operating a schedul- arrived in ~ovember, 1964. The 10'" ed service from Calcutta and which of this aircraft will up-set the schedule was about to land. Thereafter, there of services but immediate action is was no further contact with the air- being taken to ensure that there is a craft. The aircraft was seen on the smooth changeover to the new schedule R Shri .Joachim Alva (Kanara): May I remind the hon. Minister about two Shri Daji (Indore): If it was ollly • important impediments that came in bad weather landing talnin::, we cot.ld the way in the past? One was in 1948 have understood it. But it was 0. ore- when the KLM plane disasler took engine landing training, the (lither place, when 50 valuable American lives engine -being cut oil'. Why such a at journalists, both men and women training was risked at a time when were lost, when the plane crashed on visibility was absolutely blurred? Why the hill around the Bombay airport. this double risk of training one-engine It is only three or four years back that landing when the visibility is bad? the hill was levelled down. That is why this accident occurred. That is tbe main Question which ha. not been clarified. Secondly, Mr. J.R.D Tata repeatedly warned us in the Estimates Committee and outside about the Kamani tower Shri C. M. Poonacha.: On this, wo are right at the Bomhay airport which was awaiting further particulars and in- removed only last year because this formation. Our officers have go"e to magnate th~ght that it was a prestige the spot to find wt as to what was to keep the tower going and would not the visibility, what was the contrel yield until a substantial 'lmount of advice and the advice from the Jtround - __pensation was given to him. and the authorities concerned. These BHADRA 14, 1888 (SAKA) to I.A.C. Caravelle 9250' (Stt.) particulars are being awaited. As soon Shri C. M. Poonacba: The pcints as they are received, we will certainly raised by my hon. friend are rnattet'!l take action. which are continuously engaging the attention of the Governments and the' Shri Jtanga (Chittoor): A-:e you to authorities concerned. Not c.nly we, depend merely on departmental re- but even the international s<':-Vice ports? ShClUld you not immediately operators are also very mu~h con- appoint a commission of inquiry to go cerned about the safety equipment and into the causes of the accident? Why other facilities that are av.aUable at should, you have the privilell:e of decid- the Santa Cruz Airport becaus" we ing to appoint it or not? are not the single operator there. there are also a number of other foreign line Shri C M. Poonacba: On the fa[Oe of operators using this Airport. From it, it calls for a formal inquiry because their point of view, and the stipUla- there is total loss of the air"raft and tions under the ICAO, experts periodi- the loss of lives. It immediately ralls cally visit and conduct the inspection for a formal inquiry. It tl:ink tb&t thus it is being cleared for the ope- will be ordered. ration of fast jet-type of aireratt. But here and there mishaps do happen. Shri Narendra Singh Mahida (AI:- As my hon. friend has pointed out. we and): As one of the oldest ,urviving shall further look into the matter alld pilots in India, I consider Irombay as shall try to take the best advice fmm one of the most treacherous landing the experts concerned. grounds during monsoon. 1 request the Ministry to consider Bombay So a Shri Nambiar (Tiruchirapalli): In hazardous landing ground in IIi.onsoOn. view of the fact that we lost twa Cart.- We have had So many accidents. I, velles recently, may I know whether therefore. urge upon the ;>finistry to the Caravelle service with Madras, examine the question as to whether a Delhi, Bombay and Calcutta will con- new aerodrome near Bomaay can be tinue or whether there will he any built and the Santa Cruz Airport be serious dislocation arising ("ut of these scrapped. losses? Shri Shivaji Rao S. Desbmukh (Par- Sbri C. M. Poonacha: We shall have bhani): My quesfion arises out of the to re-schedule the Caravelle service plea raised by the hon. Members here which will be done. In that we shall because I am also informed tha~ thele try to see that as far as possible the are a series of technical Opilliof's O!1 convenience of the travelling public i, record drawing particular attention of met. We have Viscounts also which the LA.T.A. authorities pbout air may be pressed into service in the hazards both in landing and take-off place of Caravelles. So far ad Cara- stages at Santa Cruz Airport. Some velles are concerned, we shall have to air hazards have been removed on re-schedule Caravelle Service accord- objection by certain authorities. Is the ing to the availability of the aircraft. Minister in a position to make a defi- nite statement that all that is possihle to do to remove any removable air Shri A. P. Sharma (Buxar): It is hazards to normal air traffic anrl jet reported that the plane too«: off at traffic which will be taking olr and 11-18 a.m. and lost contact at 11-20 a.m. landing at Santa Cruz Airp~rt has It is also rept>rted that in spite of the been done and is complete, taking iu,o C;ay_Iong search carried out by the account the inflow, radar control and rescue party, the bodies of only three other safety Instrument facilities and crew could be found. On the face of certain modern equipment which only that, how does the hun. Minister say help for a technically sound lanrling that the weather was not too bad. but do not physically remove the air They were able to locate the bodies of hazards? three persons after a day-long search Corrections SEPTEMBER 5, 1966 of Answers to Questi01l 9252 [8hri A. P. Sharma] because the weather was bad. But how also working in the rural areas havinl: .does the Minister say that the weather the rural -training centres, etc." Tbe was not bad? correct position, however, is that it was considered to give Vijnan Mandin to b~ Shri C. M. Poonacha: This was selected Rural Institutes-but this is .,ause of the delay in reaching the still under COIflsideration. place. The rescue party could reach the place only in the late hours of the I regret that this correctior could evening. At 1330 hrs. the helicopter not be made earlier. could land alongside and locate them; the wreckage was there and three bodies were immediately located; one 13.50 hrs. 'body was under the debris. RE: STATEMENT BY MEMBER UN- >;{T !lfl~"{ ""''''' ;f"{CfT ( [~fm] ing telegrams dated 3rd September, ~ ~ ~ ~ 'R know what this statement today means. 14 hI'S. What is the situation there? We were told first that they were anestcd uncier Shrlmati Rena Chakravutty: Why the DIR ..• were they arrested under the DIR first? Mr. Speaker: If the hon. Minister has got any information, he may give it. Shri S. M. BanerJee: ... he ",'as gD'ing by the report or th.~ p<.lice ad- The Depaty MiDister in the MiaMry ministration or he had his own infor- ~f Home Affairs (Shri Vidya Chara.n mation. If you would kindly I'ead the Shukla) : As far as my i:1fc.rmation telegram once again you will find that goes, he was arrested under DlR and the charges which have been levelled by a II those sections of the Cnminal P 1'0- 8hri Vidya Charan 8hukla against eroure Code which you have iust n(;w these two Members to Justify their read out. arrest have been repeatpd in this. What I am afraid of is this that after Shrimati Renu ChakuTartty: That this question was raiSed here and ~fter means that you have been misinform- 8hri Vidya Charan Shukla was sub_ ed .. jected to a barrage of questions here by the Opposition, thpse charges are Mr. Speaker: nave 0:11:{ to read now being made ag31O [Shri Kapur Singh] Criminal Procedure Code are being OIR, for t1~ey had do~e this, that etc. Then, there was a reaction from this applied. That is a matter whi"h c~uses side of the House, and a strong except- us suspicion. What happens is that after the discussi.>n in Parliament. ion was taken tGI the use or abuse of the OIR. On that occasion, there was some fresh charges are brought against the Members of Parliament. Members no mention whats~ever of the other sections of the IPC under which they of Parliament are held up under the might have been arrested. But r.ow om for God knows what reason. Then. the han. Minister cna:1ges the pasition certain other criminal charges are brought against them, and the han. basically and fundament aU" ~Ild he says that even then it was the case Minister says something whicn does not that they were arrested under these correspond with 1..he report sent by the other sections . . . officer concerned to YilU. The offi"er concerned will never have the daring Mr. Speaker: He does not say that to send you a wrong report; so, what it was stated here; he only says that the Minister says n=, dees o"t seem they had been charli!ed with these of- to be correct. This is the mosl uIlfoc- fences also at that time. tunate position. Sbri Kapur Slngb: In that case, this House would like to know whether the Shri Bade (Khargone): It is not a other offences, namely the offences question of the Communists or the Jan other than those mentioned uncier the 8angh Members, but it is a question of OIR, were applied to their case already the rights of Memoers of Parliament. or they have been applied subsequent The questi Shri U. M. Trivedi (Mandsaur) . I Shrimati Renu Chakravartty: The want to make a submissio'l because this Deputy Minister said they were men- is a very serious thing. tioned. Mr. Speaker: It is not a question of Shri Nambiar: If we also failed, any dispute or debate. It is a matter what would have happened? of record. We can see the original thing also and see whether these other Mr. Speaker: Let him submit the- sections have been mentioned there. report and then we can see. Shrl Harf VlsImu Kamath (H""hang- Shri Namhiar : Our memory is- abad) : As far as I remember, it was correct, not his memory. only D1R which was mentioned at that time. Mr. Speaker: No question of me- mory, it is a question of record. Mr. Speaker: It reads: Shri Nambiar: Question of life and death. "I have the honour to inform you that I have found it my duty in exercise of my power under section Shri Priya Gupta: On a point of 167 of the Criminal Procedure order. Code ... Mr. Speaker: What is the point of Shri Nambiar (Tiruchirapalli)' That order? is all. ~i f~ 1! Shri Priya Gupta (Katihar): Not Shri Bari Vishnu Kamatb: On a only that. point of order under rule 229. If I heard the Minister aright, he just new Shri Vldya Charan Shukla: I shall said he was arrested under the DIR lind out why these other sections were plus something, I do not know what not mentioned and I shall send the that plus is. If he was arrested origi- report to you. nally under the DIR and those criminal Detention at Members SEPTEMBER 5,1966 Bi!! introduced [Shri Hari Vishnu Kamath] ever that report might be, whether the report says that these 'plus' charges charges, the rule is clear. Wbat does were initially there or whether the re- the rule say? It obliges the executive port says that these'plus' charges were authorities to act according to that subsequently added, the fact is al:-eady rule. How does the rule read? established that a wrong report was "When a Member is arrested on sen t to you, and therefore a breach of a criminal charge or for a criminal privilege has already occurred. This is offence or is sentenced to imprison- the point wbich is agitating us. ment by a court or is detained under an executive order, the com- Shri Vidya CharaD Shukla: May mitting judge, magistrate or exe- clarify this a little bit mCol'e? When I cutive authority ... answered the question on the caUin!! attention noilce I said the hon. Mem- -the police also--- bers had been arrested under such and such section of DIR and they have " ... as the case maybe, sball been charged with certain offences immediately intimate sucb fact to under the sections that you have men- the Speaker indicating the reasons tioned. The arrest was made under for the arrest, detention or con- DIR and they bave been at the same viction, as the case may be, as also moment also charged with offences the place of detention or imprison- under the sections. ment of the member in ihe appro- priate farm set out ... " Shri M. N. Swam,. (Ongole) : We are not concerned with what h" has said, If I heard him aright, and I am sure the we are concerned with what .you have other Members also heard him aright, received. he did say tbat he was arres ~ed under Shri Vldya Charan Shukla: As I DIR plus someting-plus means -:>lher have already promised, I shall find out charges. Under this rule ...... why these sections wer~ not mentioned when the initial message was sent to Mr. Speaker: What have said? you, and I shall send the report to you. This is the only tbing I bave said, that it was their duty to inform. Shri Namhiar: It is an af .erthougllt. Mr. Speaker: Bills to be introeiuced. Shri Dari Vishnu Kamath: Then be is guilty, not the Minister but the executive authority. 14.10 hrs. Mr. Speaker: I will see. This is DELHI PANCHAYAT SAMITIS AND exactly what I have said. Mr Rapul" NYAYA PANCHAYATS BILL· Singh. The Deputy Minister in the Ministry Shri Dari Vishnu Kamath: He ,s of Dome Affairs (Shr! Vldya CharaD liable. Let us have it in this session. Shukla) : On behalf at. Mr. Nanda I Shri PriYa Gupta Tose- beg to move for leave ... Mr. Speaker: I have called Ml". Shri J. S. Kripalani (Amroha) : M"y Kapur Singh. I submit? Shri Kapur Siugh: I am afraid that Mr. Speaker: After he has finisheo. the real point which is agitating ·..IS is Shri VidYa Charau "huklll: being missed by the proceaure that lS being missed by the procedure that is " ... to introduce a Bill lo pro- worrying us is this. You hct've C .. ll ec vide for the constituti"", of Pan_ fOI a report from the Minis,,,r. Wha~- chavat Samitis and Nyaya pancha- ·Published in Gazette of ~ndia, Ex traordinary Part II, Section 2, dated 5-9-66. Bill intToduced BHADRA 14, 1888 (SAKA) Re. C.A. yats in the Union territory of Shri J. B. Kripalani: You are allIO Delhi and to make certain amend- concerned with seein, that justice ill ments in the Delhi Land Reforms done. Act, 1954, and the Delhi Panchayat Raj Act, 1954, and for mattera Mr. Speaker: The question is: incidental thereto." ''That leave be granted to intro- Sbri J. B. Kripalani: What I want duce a Bill to provide for the cons- to submit is this, tha t at first though titution of Panchayat Samitis and they were charged under the Defen<-'e Nyaya Panchayats in the Union of India Act, afterwards they have territory. of· Delhi and to make been charged under the Criminal Pro- certain amendments in the Delhi cedure Code. . Land Reforms Act, 1954, and the Delhi Panchayat Raj Act, 1954, Shri P. K. Deo (Kalahandi) : For and for matters incidental thereto." the same offence. The motion was adopted. Shri J. B. Kripaianl: May be or may Shri Vidya Charan Shukla; I intro- not be. They are being charged as the duce" the ill. British used to do. When one law did not apply, they would arrest and say they are charged under the Criminal 14.13 hrs. Procedure Code. This is the dange!, that afterwards they are being charged RE: CALLING ATl'ENTION by something which is more heinow< NOTICE--contd. and punishable than before. Under (Query) the Defence of India Act you can be det!\'ined for a few months and come ~T ~ lq'1\I( ~ (oiU'fT) : ~ out, but under these sections, they can be given life sentence. This. I submit, ~tJTif If.t 'Iff fum ~ I ~ ~ <'i11IT is an essential point. It is not a ques- 'l\'T crT lfm ~ fum ~, ~ ~ ~Rl' ~ ~ .. tion of. procedure it is a question of the ~~ ~ ~ ~ ~ liberty of the subject. "flit 'l\'T +fr If.If hrs. should be studied in detail. If the rail· way authorities nre not able to study KAILWAY PROPERTY (UNLAWFUL these problems, I go to the length of POSSESSION) BI~ontd. saying that a "O!nmittee shuuld be formed to study in detail all these pob- Mr. Speaker: Further consideration lems because the expenses are gomg of Railway Property (Unlawful Pcs- up. All these problenos should be session) Bill. Shri Rane. studied and the committee shOUld sug- gest ways and means to check the in- 8hri Bane (Buldana): I stated yes- crease in offences. terday that I support the Bill and do Dot agree with the Members who have I now come to my next point. There opposed the Bill. are some reasO!lS which lead to this increasing of offences. FirstlY, the The hon. Minister h~s stated in his railway authorities arc not taking ad- speech yesterday that the claims bill vantage of the existLli penal provision, which was 29 million rupees in 1953-54 in the Railway Act. l'OSe to 42 million in li62-63. 'IT f~ 'r [Ma. DF;PUTY-Sl'EAKER in the Chair] '!CI'~ m ifTor ,~~, q;fC<'f ~ ~ if ,g ~, ~ f.<; fl:!f.m;<: i!R There must also be, 1 imaltine. huge lim losses due to the destruction of pro- ~~,~~if~~~1 perty and the small and big thefts from wagons, etc. It is rather sad th~.t the Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The Bell is be- offences are increasing notwithstanding ing rung-there is now Quorum. the creation of the railway prctecticn :force. I, suppOSe that this is due to 8hri Rane: In the British days I had want of power in the hands of the to defend a small boy of 12, a peasant's force. I, therefore, welc'l:ne this Bill son who has thrown a .;tone at a run- as it seeks to inve.• t the RPF with the ning train; he was arrested then and necessary powers. Hon. Memhers there and prosecuted anri I had to Shri Nambiar. Bade and A. P Sharma defend him in court in those days. had expressed misgivings and appre- Now-a-days we see offences of greater hensions about the misuse of powers magnitude being committed but they by the RPF. That argument can be do not take action. Secondly, I am advanced for the misuse of the power told by several persons that some of by the police also. Sa, there is no these offences are taking place on ac- force in that. I feel tnat the pres'mt count of the connivance and indirect measure would not be adequate to meet participation of some railway servants. the growing menace and increasing of If it is probed into, there will be some offences. N ow-a-days the tendency to check. In the whole of India, in many destroy government aud public pro- places, gangs of persons who steel perty is growing. In broad daylight railway property had come into exis- in West Bengal, Bombay a!ld in My_ tence. I think the pollce a Iso know it. sore the railway property had been I do not know whether the railway destroyed recently and railway tracks autholrities know it or not. There are are tampered with. In certain count- also many receivers of stolen property ries the destroyers of public property from the members of that gang but are regarded as enemies 'If !he people; they are not unearthed. i have read this and 1.bis has been laid Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Mr. Sarioo down in their constitutions and very Pandey. heavy and severe punishments are pres- cribed in their Acts. Hon: Minister Shri U. M.. Trivedi (Mandsaur): Sir, .hould give thought to this Ul.ect of the time for thia Bill may be extend- ~ question. The whole problem ed. RailW411 BHADRA 14,1888 (SAKA) Property (etc.)' Bm 9270 Mr. Deputy-Speakn: At the sugges.. ~ I ~ [-.:iT ~ qJll~ J ~ ~ ~ ~ m:r lift i!i)flm lift. I f'Of ~ff~~ (~): 'f>t ~ ~.rr~ f'j; ;;it ~ m: ~ $lf,1im QT~~ ~ ~iti;;ftg~~,mij;~ f.T~~~R;~~affi;~ m ~ ;m it ml!r.f 'lIT ~;;it f~~~it~~~lw ~~, ~~~I itifT~ fomlf'l>~en~~'-ITR;~ iff ~ R; wr<: ~ ""~ ~ fomlf'l> ~(\' m<1T 'flW'. '-IT ~ 'lfif mm ~ en 1fT 2m, ..m:~"I1 [15jT ~ omr ~] ~'IiT~'lgT~~~*fi ~~~,M~itf~ ~~I"R'H I ~~ ~~crr OTt OTt ~U 'liT ~ ~, ~ 'iitzl ~1 member of the Force to arrest person. 0f0 ~, ~ ~ t [Shri Himatsingka] ~ ~ it 1AT 'iT f ~;:'f1f;~~~~~ I rm1~~ Mr. DepUty-Speaker: I shall examine these remarks and see. tor~ ~ 'Ii't ~ if; fu1t ""¥ ~ ~ -q ~ I Shri S. K. Patn: All those remarks are to be expunged from the proceed- The Minister of BaUwa7S CShri S. ings. I. PatlI): Sir, I rlse to a point of order. Mr. Deputy-Speaker: It is ali irre- "tt'(1'l:r~~~: tri~~~ levant. You must give previous notice. 7i(T ~ I n has nothing to do with this Bill. Shri S. K. PatlI: H. will have to sit 11ft '('l~~ l'.f1«: irf~ 'fTfur down I am rising to a point of order. 'f.t 'liT ~ ilQT ~ I ~ w.'if if w ~ Mr. DepUty-Speaker: Let me hear the ~ I :r ",r '1lf~ ~.~'fT "IT"'lT t f.l; ~~ point of order. ~m~~WI:t~T.T ;~;~'T Shri S. K. PatlI: Sir, my point of 'F7 1; "qT~-rm ~ qT "'IT" 'f" ",rifo I C'rder is this The hon. Member is do- ing something which the Speaker had Mr Deputy-Speaker: There is no disallowed earlier. He was raising reason why you should raise it here. lOme question which had no relevancy It is irrelevant. here, without giving me any notice. lind my name was being used. Under Shri Nambiar (Tiruchirapaili): Th. Rule 353 of the Rules of Procedure I hon. Minister need not be so touchy raised a point of order and he was about it. The more he objects tb. stopped by the Speaker. In the gUise more he speaks. of talking on this Railway Properly (Unlawful Possession) Bill. he is re- Mr. Deputy-S)leaker: Anything and iering to the same thin/( which relates everything cannot be said wbile speak- to the Food Department. My point is ing on a Bill. that any reference to thIIt now is irre- levant and must not be taken note of. 11ft ~~ ~: ;;rt ~o '1To Mr. DepUty-Speaker: He should nol "q; 0 ~ -nr if; 3;'1{ ~" ~<1lf'f.'R ~ '!lTftq- say anything about that. He may apeak on this Bill. ~ f.l; ~ m ~if IF'ffir ~t '!iffiT'f '1("ITiT ~ ~ ~ ;m ~t lli'f :;ra-h:if "t)~~~: ifW'l~f~ m!1'1iT~ fullT ;;rrlt 'm'f'f 'RT T~ ~ W ~ f.ci~ :'M" ~ R; ~ t!1f 'lIT ~n 'f.'r T1;lT 'fit 'lIT, ~ f'TlI ~ I{f~ ('!;~r) ~ii ~ ~ m'1 ~'h: If.t3'ff if; forit ~ qT ~ ~ liPf ~ I jf ,fP:l~ ~IJT f'f.' 11I'A'fll 'l'Tfffl. . 0 fOfit f.!;zrr ;;rr ~ ~ I Railway SEPTEMBER 5, 1966 Propertll'(etc.) Bill r~~~lfm'] ~iblllty, it "fT~'lT f'f; -sRrT ~lG W;;;) if; mOl" it 'lIT offences under this Act, were investi- fiEN ~Qr ~ I gated and enquired into by the State Police. Because of this, the RailwB7 Shrl Muthiah (Tirunelveli): Mr. Protection Force is handicapped t. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, I rise to support effectively dealing with ther~. and pil- this Bill. The Bill is essen tial and ferages 01 railway property. timely in view of large-scale thefts and pilferages occurring frequently in the Shrl Nambiar: Police cannot do tlIIII Railways both in respect of pre'per:!e. job? owned by Railways and goods of the public transported by railways.' Shri Muthiah: The jurisdlciton of tbe State Police is limited to the State I submit, Sir, the people are becom- boundary. Therefore, it is difficult for Jng indifferent and irresponsible in the the State Police to make thorough in- case of public property or government vestigations into thefts of Railway pr~ property including railway property. perty. The Railway Protection For~ We find nowadays pub1i~ lJrop~rty in- is not equipped with necessary powe" culding railway property being destroy- of investigatIOn and prosecution. In- ed by mob violence during demonstra- vestigation and prosecution are now tions as was witnessed recently in conducted only by the State Polica Bombay and Calcutta. Raiiway pro- This is not helpful for effective deal in, perties in railway compartments and w.ith the problem. Therefore, thI. railway stations, in the goods shed. comprehensive Bill has been brougM: and goods trains, are being pilfered by firstly, to include the unlawful posses- anti-social and anti-national elements. sion of goods entrusted by people ttl Even nuts and bolts and crews are the Railways for transpcrt and, seo- found missing in the railway compart- on dIy, to give powers of investigatios men:.. Such thefts are a national dis- and prosecution of offences relating te Irace and unworthy of a civilised railway property to the Railway Pro- nation. tectin Force. Goods in goods trains are stolen frequently and on a lar2e scale. With The existence of double jurisdiction. the increase in the quantum of good. both by S~ate Police and bv RailwB7 traffic on the railwaYs, thefts are also Protection Force, is a serious handicap. increasing. This is proved by the The railway Protection Force needs t. increasing claims bills. The claims be strengthened and to be given fuU powers to tackle thefts 01 railway pr.,. bills rose from Rs. 29 million in 1953_ perty. The additional expenditure • 54 to Rs. 42 million in 1963-64. estil:na ted to be only 1.67 per cent OIl The amendment of the Indian Rail- the present cost on the Railway Prot_ ways Act in 1961 has made it oblli:ll- tion Force. tory on the Railways to pay claims for losses, destruction, damages or deterio- Severe punishment should be givEll ration or non-d.elivery of goods despat- to the offenders luilty 01 thefts 0.1 ched. Because 01 this additional re.. railway property. Provision should be 9285 RailwBU BHADRA 14, 1888 (SAKA) PropertU (etc.) Bill 928' made in this Bill or subsequent amend- the Constitution. It you look at the ing Bill fCYr awarding deterrent punish- Seventh Schedule :.c the Constitution, ment for mob violence and mob del!- in 'List II, the State List, item :! react. truction of railway property. "Police, including railway and village police". So, the State police will hav. I come to the Bill. Clause 3 of the jurisdiction over the railways aisG. Bill provides punishment for unlawful Clause 8, sub-clause (2) of the Bill possession of railway property either reads: stolen or unlawfully obtained Thll "For this purpose the officer of punishment is imprisonment or fine or 'the Force may exercise the same both. Clause 4 speaks of penaltv for powers and shall be subject to tM those who connive at the theft of raU- same provisions as the o!licer in way property. It is necessary that charge of a police station may abetters are also punished. Section. exercise and is subject to undi!J' gives power to the Railway ProtectiOln the Code of Criminal Procedure; Force to arrest without warrant any 1898, when investigating a cogniz- person guilty of theft of railway pro- able case." perty or suspected of theft. Here It' is necessary to ensure that the power This can be done only 'Nhen the reI. is not misused by t,he railway officials vant entry in the State List is amend and innocent people are not arrested ed so that the Centre can also ha,.. lind harassed under mere suspicion. jurisdiction concurrently ever the police. Otherwise, the passing of thJa Under section 10, the ofticer can 1"81 clause will mean that the St,te police a search warrant from a magistrate is being divested of the normal powen to search any place suspected of hav_ which it has under the COllsti:utillll. ing any stolen property, seize sud! That can be done onlv when the S~ate. property and produce it before a court, concerned give their aporoval to it and and the court, when it is convinced of an amendment to the Constitution II the theft, can order forfeiture of thll adopted. So, Sir, on this very funda- stolen property to the Government. mental question, I woul" like you. The right to enter the premises of • decision, the decision of the HouEe and suspected person Is likely to lead to the wisdom of the Government. misuse of powers by the officers some- times. This should not lead to haras~ Shri Alvares: Government have lilt ment at innocent peop., bv the rail- wisdom. way officials. Shri Priya Gupta: I want .to know Shri Priya Gupta: I rise to oppose one thing. Suppose a RPJ' "ffi~a the Railway Property (Unlawful Pos- exercises police powers from UP te session) Bill. This proposal was moot- Bihar, Bihar to Assam and from Assam e.a in 1956. Atter conception for a to Bengal. Now the Chief Security period of ten years this embryo hal Officer will be different fe'r diffcreIit been produced by the Railway Minis- railways. Since each Railway paSSel ter. The first conception was abor- through two or more States, under tioned by Shri Lal Bahadur Shastri whose jurisdiction will he come? Thea when he was the Railway Minister. is a fundamental Question. Secondly, The attempt of the Ministry of He.ll- will this Bill preclude the regular police ways to bring forward a Bill was u;l- officers including GRP of the area from timely abortioned during Shri La1 taking action for offences heini com- Bahadur's time because the State Go." mitted? ernments did not Ilive in. Then, clause 3 of the Dill talks 01 IIrst offence and second offence. Is the Shri Alvares (Panjim): All abor- Railways going to maintain a chart 01 tions are untimely. offenders and find out whether tha particular persons is the first offencier Shri Priya Gupta: I want to say that or the second offender? Already, the this Bill is allainst the provisious [8hri Priya Gupta] cannot be paid because of paucity of separate cadre, inside the iU'F to .ta1f. Will this exira work also be watch the trade union activities of the ~ven to them? raLlway employees. It is the m cell of RPF. Now when this Bill is passed, Also, in clause 3(b) the punishment the District Officer, Divisional Supe- mentioned is too heavy. It is heavier rintendent or the General Manager than the gravity of the ollenee will harass those railway workers warrants. At least, it should be who are participating in ~rade union the same as is prescribed in the activities when RPF will nave power" Indian Penal Code and the Code of to arrest on the plea Ilf some rail- Criminal Procedure. way property being found in their Mr. Deputy-Speaker: He mould possession. It will take. many vears conclude now. Cor the employee to go to a court of law and elear himsel~. In the mean Shri Priya Gupta: Sir, it is a very time, they will cow down the trade important matter. union work by harassing the union workers saying that they are found Shri Alvares: He is the Secretary in possession of some rail way proper- of the Railwaymen's Federation. He ty. is speaking on behalf of several lakhs railwaymen. Do the Railway Ministry want to over-rule the Chief Ministers of Shri Priya Gupta: Coming to &D- States by this Bill? Because, it is other point, what about the service very clear from the Constitution it- IIOnditions of the RPF e,nployees! self that the police being a State There is the RPF Act. Becawa of subject, vrill be under the State. the change in their service condi- Coming to another point, the em- uons, they' were promised by the ployees of RPF who have put in a Railway Ministry that whoever does number of years of service are not not want to remain in the RPF will given promotions, because .... be absorbed in the open iine works of the railways. That has not been Mr. Deputy-Speaker: We are not done with the result that so many concerned with promotions in this old people have been forced to con- Bill. It is not relevant. tinue in the RPF against their will. even though they have cpted to go Shri Priya Gupta: Kindly hear me, out of it. Now you are putting tur- Sir. The appeal rules in the RPF fher restrictions on them. I think will also chan(!'e in the context of the railways are looking after their this Bill. I have seen that even high own interests and not tile service officials of the RPF of the rank of conditions of the people who have DIG, AIG and sub-inspectors, they entered the railway service. are superseded by the nomin.. e of the 15 hrs. Railway Ministry or the General Manager. I want to know whether Then, the RPF was organised to it is the whimsical officers of the ensure that the railway properties Railway Board or the whimsical Min- are safely kept. Now the RPF orga- ister~cuse me, Sir, for saying so- Ilisation has got a wing, bigger than who will decide whom to give pro- the wing meant for the protection of motions in the RPF! railway property, called the. intelli- tence wing to watch the trade union, These are some of the points which activities of the railway workers. I want to place before the House for The RPF was originally organised tol ,serious consideration, be.cause they protect railway property from theft. ~ will have> their repercussIons not only JIfow, there is a aeparate force, a j. on the rlillway emploYeeil but on the BHADRA 14,1888 (SAKA) Praperl;y (etc.) Bill 929J people of India at large. So, in the Shri Nambiar: It is a very irr.port- end, I say that the whole intention is ant piece of legislation. mala fide and this Bill is not meant to stop the theft of railway property. Mr. Deputy-Speaker: If Shri Tri- There are many other laws already vedi is able to show me any prece- in force under which the police can dent when the House has extended. take action if the object is only to the time a second time, I will put it protect railway property. With these to the House. words, 7 oppose the Bill. Shri S. K.. Paill: I would give 10 Mr. Deputy-Speaker: will caU minutes of my own time to Shri Tri- the Minister at 3-10 p.m. Now, Shri vedi. Sinhasan Singh. Shri U. M. Trivedi: I will require Shri U. M. Trivedi: Sir, you said only 7 minutes. that time cannot be extended because a motion was moved earlier. VIe have Shri Nambiar: Net only Shri Tri got precedents to show that a motion vedi's points but this has to be tho- of this nature, for extension of time, roughly discussed. is not held out if the House so de- sires. Shri Bade (K1uY;gone): Time was extended thrice on the Repres,mta- Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Can you give tion of the People (Amendment) Bi. roe anyone precedent when the House here in ihis House last w~ek. has extended time twice on the same Bill? Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Only once. I extended it. Shri U. M. Trivedi: Three times th~ Hause has extended the time for Shri Nambiar: It was extended. a Bill. I can give instances. again. Mr. Deputy-Speaker: All right, you give me the precedent. Shri U. M. Trivedi: If I get Ibre minutes, that will be all tight. Shri Nambiar: Sir, f:)rmerly th~ Shri Priya Gupta: Kindly extend time allotted was one hOur and at our the time. It is a very important Bilt. request you made it two ,,"ours. It is such an important Bill where the Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I am very constitutional provisions ae imping- sorry. ed. Shri Priya Gupta: We crave yOUl" Mr. Deputy-Speaker: If it is against indulgence. You wanted " precedent the Constitution, how ~an I throw We have quoted that. it out? Mr. Deputy-Speaker: 'Jrder, order. Shri Nambiar: But can it not be Shri Sinhasan Singh. discussed also? SllTf'Rlmff~ (IT~):~ Mr. Deputy-Speaker: YOU show me ~ ,~«f~'I\"r~if;m-it ~ the authority and I will put it to the House again. ~q<:~~fil; ~ f",,3<:rf.t if; iT<£T!r 'I\"~ ~ Shri' Alvares: Even if we ",ant to 'Iil~ it;or mr ~ I W:;f ~ if it throw it out, we have to convince the House. ~ [o.itf~~ ~ ~o 'fro 1:%0 1 ~ ~ ft ~ itu ~. lIi! ~ f.f; ~ flf~ ~ .... 'I*I<>aflq if>iti'r it W ~ ~;jff;jT~,;;ft ~~~~ t ~tff f~~~If':~~'Il'T'];m ~) 1 ~ f~ it .rocp'fl'oR- ~,~ il; Wt ij; 'fil<.'Uf, f;r.r it ~~ 'Ii't~ ~~ il;~ ;;rrit .... r ~ ~~, ~~~'fiTlf~ ij; ~ t~1 ~ srr"Iif 'lit ~ m$fi" ~ ~ ~, f;;m'll'T~ ~~mn- ~ 1 ~~'Il'T~ 5it~lTlI'f ~ ~ m~'Il'T~ 'Iit~'Ii't ~ l!rr ~ ~ __ro m;::. ~ f.f; ~ ~ il; ~ 'Oft o;f'1(Tl1 ~, ~ .... n"l5.iil<'l;r@ ~ 1 'fi1T.ft- of\"o 'li'ttff I~~it~ m<:otf'to ~ 'li<: ;rT;r-'fiII'Il5.iil<'l ~ it ~o 'Ii't 1ft q'\-( f.r.;r WfEfi";rt~~ ~ ~, ~ ~:;.r Efi"f 1ffif ~ ~ If<: ~ij" 'II'Ii ~ fit; Efi"@ mit 'if<1 'R: ~ f~ W ~ i"m ~ ~fEfi"73'~Efi"T'fm ~ if; ~ Efi"'m: fShri U. M. Trivedi] Sir, I am at one with the Railway are also influenced by considerations Ministry that thefts are taking place of different types. He will hav", to in the railways, that we are :landi- issue the notice and by me time tile capped in making investigation, that notice is issued, the goods will dis- we are handicapped in bringing these appear. thieves to book and that the State police is not at all helpful. On the Now, if the power is to be given, contrary, it sits on the throat of the let it be given properly. I would sug- poor railway eml?loyee and makes gest one thing to the hon. Minister. money out of it which is the primary Let the hon. Minister think of it and concern that they have. Everyday, let him withdraw this Dill. Let him thefts are occurring .rnd the thefts have a comprehensive Bill that for are occurring with the help llf the the whole of India, the Railway Police police. But at the same time, I say must be in the hands of lhe Union that this is not a measure which ran Government and that it should be eradicate the evil which exists and maintained by the Union novernment. which this Bill wants 10 remedy. Let the law be amended; let a pro- This is not at all possible ttl be done per law be made. Let every prose- with this measure. On the one cution and every trial take place at hand, you are giving powers to the the Centre either under the charge Railway Protection Force, the power of Home Ministry or Railway Minis- of enquiry, the power "f summoning try. Then and then .,lone, we can witnesses, the power of taking oath come to this. Otherwise, there will and recording evidence and that it be conflict between the Railway will be called a judicial proceeding. Police Force and the State Police and Such a thing has never been cO:lceiv- there will be a lot of tussle bptween ed of that the man who accuses any- them. Then, instead of one, there body makes a judicial enquiry into will be thieves entering into compe- the affairs. Such a thing has not been tition with each other In deprivin& conceived of in law. Any person the Railways of their railway pro- who has any knowledge of junspru- perty. That is there. defice will agree with t.hIS. On one hand, clause 5 says that the I, therefore, say, apart trom the offence is not cognizable and imme- defects that can he pointed out at one diately, on the other hand, clause 6 stage or the other in the various provISIons of this Bill, the very fun- says that for a superior officer it IS cognizable. What type of cognizance damentals of this Bill <'re wrong in is it? It is not cognizable for one principle, wrong in jurisprudence, and the very next sentence says that and illegal and unconstitutional and it is cognizable for the . ,ther superior the very conflict between the two officer who can arrest the man. What sections will take place ;Ind that will type of cognizance is it? And that create positions of ultra vires nature in this matter. I most emphntically very man who can make [!] rest can have a search warrant issued but for submit to my hon. friend, l\1r. Patil- that he has got to go to the magis- all of them are good :md kind to me trate and by the time the warrant is -and tell them let this Bill be with- issued, that scoundrel will remove all drawn and let us come 10 thecon- the goods that are lying there and elusion that this is not the law which nothing will be found. What type of is meant for removing the evil that ;., law will it be? How will it be ad- there. justed? To what advantage will it be? The magistrate will make enqui- ries and issue the notice. Magistrates Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Sbri S. It. are not always above ~oard. They Pati!o 9297 RaihDay BHADRA 14, 1888 (SAKAl Property (etc.) BiZ! 9298 .:~ f~f (~~) :~r~pr~, ~r ~~ tor #ifi ~, ~ '11: ~, ;;r;;r ~ iP:T ~~f'IIT1:f~~1 376m340 liHI ~i;fr ~ '3'<1' ~ if crrr ~rrcT !J'W ~ ~~ ~~~'hr'fOT"'W ~~~ ~ 'lIT crrr ~ !J'W ~, '3'''I it m ~ I "i:'[ ).10 f;p:r>f >:T :rm'{ ~ : it,',-11'"ir 11'~~ '1ft WJ;,,{ m,ft ~ ... "At any time after a motion Shri S. K. PaW: What you have has been made, a member may not allowed, the hon. Member i! move that the debate ;)n the mo- bringing it again. It is thoroughly tion be adjourned." out of order. qif ~'l "if.'\' ~;r it 'ITtrit f'Fo{- IltT~f::~ 'lIT "SRa'[q ~, '3''1' '11: m Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I am not al- ~ >::'f;r" ;[~':1'T An hOD. Member: You are not a VII. This House and the Railways lawyer. have got the competence to have a law of this nature. As to whether Shri S. K. Pati1: I am glad I am not it will ultimately conflict with the a lawyer. It is much better not to G.R.P. and the Criminal Procedure be a lawyer than to be a lawyer of Code, etc. is a point that ;s now rai!- this type. ed by Shri Trivedi. Had ne really done it a couple of days ago, I could Shri PriYa Gupta: Don't call us have given further thought to that liar ... (Interruption). question-I do not find it myself; I am not doing it-but I can assure him of one thing. If it is fuund in ~~'" ~ ~I\l ~I~, >.;f1 U'I" : the exercise of this enactment that ~'J ~ if ~o ~ lIT"ffi fum '1m ~ 1 any such thing is likely to occur, ltu~m'IiT~~, ~o W$~~T~ either I will come forward to amend it or to withdraw it if becomes neces- ff;1:IT~ ~ 'fT Shri Bade: Did he mean a lawyer There have been Questions as to or liar? There is a ditTerzn'·e . why there should be two parallel (Interruption) . authorities, why. when there are a Shri Ram Sewak yadav: He must Criminal Procedure Code ~nd the withdraw that. Police of the State. should we do it? We have been doinl! it in many things e.g. in Customs and Excise. This is Shri Priya Gupta: He ~as called us not the first time. We have got a a liar. much larger iurisdiction than the Customs and the Excise. And the Shri S. K. PaW: I never said liar. only point, which is limited, is this: am never capable of saying that ... that under the R.P.F. Act. we have (Interruption) . those powers, but we are wanting to extend them to take them to their Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Order, order. logical sequence. namely, if they have I have heard him saying lawyer. The got to be effective, then these powers han. Minister may continue. of investigation and inq'.liry have got to be given. There is nothing Shri S. K. PaW: These pomts have beyond that that is intend',d. There- been raised and the people have to fore, there is no duplication of powers shout loud when they have nothing and to say that there is a duplication to defend their case with. There are of powers, etc.. is something whiCh one or two very substantial things is not correct. (Interruptions). that have been suggested. To that also, I shall address myself .. Shri Priya Gupta: This is a wron, (Interru.ption) . argument. Mr. Deputy-Speaker: There should be no runuine commentary. Mr. Deputy-sPeaker: He must bear the argument. Please sit down. (In- Sbri S. K. PaW: The constitutional terruption). He should not shout like position concerned is under Schedule tlus. 9301 Railway BHADRA 14, 1888 (SAKA) Property (etc,) Bill 9302 Shri S. K. PatU: The han. Member are 50,000 kilometres and there is no has to shout because there is no sub- Police everywhere to guard it, when stance in what he says. these people, whom I have just des- cribed, have nothing else to do, they A POint has been raised by Mr. are doing this. How this railway pro- Rane and also by many other mem- perty is to be protected against that bers, but I find that that is pot with- in the purview of this BilL The ob- kind of vandalism IS a que>t;o" that ject of the Bill is this: ~he RP.F. is has been engaging my ::tttention for to protect the Railway property; they a long time. During the last two have to guard it, but they have no years and a little more that I have powers of investigation lind inquiry; been the Minister, property worth therefore, to give them those powers more than a couple of crores . of this enactment has been brought. Bui rupees have been 1estroyed purely the question which the hon. Member out of vandalism. That is '1ot an act has raised-several other members of bravery; I ~o no~ find ~ny bravery have also raised it-is that there is in that. It is !» ',;;,':lperty that belongs so much of vandalism and there is to the nation, including the members so much Of destruction of property of the Opposition, includi';g every of Railways for whatever reason. Let member of every party, whether in us remember that in very many cases, this House or outside. It should be there are political reasons and not regarded as sacred because that does Lut justify anything, that does not any other; they are not ~he ordinary dacoits, they are not the ordinary lJrove anything - !he rlestruction ot thieves; they are a very "ophisticat- property or anything like that. There- fore, this whole question has got to ed type of dacoits and t~icve" who sometimes do this destruction and be investigated and proper' laws made vandalism. There ought to be a to stop this. There must be powers remedy in order that the railway pro- that if anybody is really trying to perty, which is a national property, do it, he must be shet a: sight; otherwise, these things will never lS protected. But the ,'bject of this Bill is not that. That is going far disappear. But those powers are beyond this particular 3cope, which quite different from the one that we is a very limited one, i.e., the scope are thinking of having today because of ~his particular enactm'~nt is very this particular Bill, this particular limIted. But something is necessary enactment, does aot conLcrn that. Its for that also because this :l'ade goes purview is very much limited. i.e .• on increasing day by day. When of investi,gation and inquiry of the cases that are ordinarilv committed they have nothing else to do, they of j sam~ do this; they are not brave people; It is a little extension he Act which is there. (Interruptions). they do something which 's immedi- ately possible-set fire to it-because Therefore, the Railway Ministry IS thinking for a long time of appoint- nobody looks at it, because there is no police nearby. Only cowards do ing a high-powered committee-this such things; brave people do not do is a pronouncement that I am r""k- ing-to go into all 3spects of the such things. (Interrupti01ls). working of the Protection Force and the policing on the Railways. Some Shri Nambiar rose- Members of Parliament-it is my desire-should also be assodatpd with 15.29 hrs. that inquiry. I am not naming the members of the Committee teday be- [SHRI SHAM LAL SARAF in the Chair] cause in due course such an announce- Shri S. K. PatU: The hon. Me-;nber ment would be made. My colleague, is not a coward- What I :lm saYing Dr. Ram Subhag Singh will be the is this. Because railway !Jroperty is C!lairman of this Committee. It is lying everywhere on our tracks which absolutely necelisary in Ol'der to put a 9303 Railway SEPTEMBER 5, 1966 PToperty (etc.) Bm 93~ [Shri S. K. Patil} he commits the offence for the second stop this, but that is '0l1Ol"lhing time, he will be forgotten or forgive. which is outside the ,lUrVlew. as I about it. said, of this particular enactment. Shri Nambiar: rise on a point of All the amendments 'hat have been order. moved are under a mistaken nobon that this takes the place t'f G .R.P. or conflids with G.R.P. Since it is Mr. Chairman: There is no point of not so, I am not accepting 1_~1eln. order now. Shri S. K. PaW: There is no point ~sked There are others who why here. I am quite sure that the hon. there should be such ;} punishment; Member is good enough; he has beeR they said that it _ too severe " a railway servant for a long time; punishment. This is a c!ifferent kind we are glad that there is some know- of offence; it is not:ln ordinary ledgeable person sitting in lhis House offence that you are dealing with. who knows the Railways and pos- There are things which either belong sibly knows it on both the sides-the to the Railways or are entrusted to good points as well as the bad point. the care of the Railways, and here of the Railways. So. it is somelhinl are people who do not r'!cognise this; that I must treat him with respect while the train is running or while and Tha1 is the respect I am giving. the train is stationary, ihe ~hefts are tak;ing place. If for taking cognl- Therefore, there will be a note of gence of the offences warrants are it and if a man commits the offence to be secured, then what would hap- for the second time, he will be duly pen? Somebody who has taken it punished. had already gone and you sit down, then go to-the Magistrate, bring the I do not want to take the tim~ of warrant -and do things like that. That the House. I am not accepting any is not exactly the purpose for which amendment whatsoever. I commend the legislation has been brought. If this Bill. there are any anomalies, if there are any excesses as a consequence of the I\lr. Chairman: Mr. Priya Gupta. functioning of this enactm-en~, surely this House will be able to amend it Shri Nambiar: I rise ·m a point of or annul it or do allylhi'lg like that. order. During the course of his What I am saying is this. If we real- speech ly want that it should be a deter- rent, it should be a deterr"nt. Do Mr. Chairman: I am calling Mr. not call it a deterrent :md then go ' Priya Gupta. on watering it down, so that the man can do it as much as he likes. Shri Priya Gupta: When he pre- sented the Bill, he said :hat it was A question was raised by one of for the purpose of my hon. friends whether we keep 8 list of the offenders. May I tell him Mr. Chairman: What is his point that in many laws, not clflly in this, of order? there are provisions of this descrip- tion' what should be the punishment Shri Priya Gupta: Kindly allow fOl 'the first offence, what should be me, Sir. (Interruptions). the punisbment for the s~cond offence and so on. Then surely somebody is Mr. Chairman: In case i,e has any making a nst Of it and ;t ",ay some- point of order to raise under some times escape the attention. The hon. rule, he can Jet me know Shri Priya Gupta: May I ,·ubmit in Shri Bade: I want to ;lut only one all humility one thing? question to the hon. Minister. I thought that he would clear this point Mr. Chairman: He may submit with- in his speech, because he attacked eut humility. the profession of lawyers and he had said at the same time that he was not Shri Priya Gupta: My whole sub- a lawyer himself. But he has not JIlission is this. When the Bill was explained the difficulties felt by two presented, it was said that the pur- or three eminent lawyers and which pose was to punish those who are in they have placed before him. unlawful possession of railway pro- perty. Now he is talking about In clause 5, the offence is not made "f'andalism, destruction 'Jf railway cognizable, whereas in clause 6 it is property and ~ttacb by o~hers. It made cognizable, which means that is not a question of possession <>f even a superior officer can arrest the railway property; when a man come. culprit. But in the (·ase O)! offences and destroys a thing, he does not take which are not cognizable, even the it and go away. Vandalism is an act of highest officer of the Stale or th~ destruction and he is giving the argu- Central Government cannot arrest lDent o! vandalism, etc., just to carry culprit. How can the hon. Minister the sentiments Of this House and to reconcile these two provisions? That let the Bill passed. Without any IS my difficulty. proper argument. he want. to get the Bill passed. Mr. Chairman: The hon. Mini.ter may keep this in mind now. He need not reply to it just now. When the Shri Nambiar: My DOint of order i. clause is taken up,' he may dear this a very clear one. While the hon. point. Minister was replying. he ;nentioned that if the hon. Member who had spoken just then committed the off- Shri Kapnr Singh (Ludhiana): I just ence for a second time ,t would be want to submit one thing On the point kept on record and proper punish- which was just now made by my hon. ment would be meted out. That was friend over there about certain re- " sort o! insinuation. in fact. it was marks made by the han. Ministe~ of not only an insinuation but a .ort ot Railways. tllreat against the Member who spok~ against the Bill. Therefore. that re- Mr. Chairman: I tave already gIven mark must be either withdrawn or it my ruling do that. should be expunged. Shri Kapur Singh: What' you have Mr. Chairman: 8hri Priya Gupta said does not amount to a complete has raised no point af Jrder. vindication of the pOint which he has sought to make out. A. far as Shri Nambiar's point is concerned. I myself had heard the Mr. Chairman: Let us leave it for a hon. Minister when he was speaking, future time. and 1 can say that the hon. Minister did not say SO in the o:'Ontext in which Shri KaIlllI' Singh: It was certainiy the hon. Member is alleging now. The not in the best of tastes and it should context in which he said it was quite not have been said. That is all that I in order. Therefore. there is no point want to say. of order. Shri Namblar: Because the Cbairmau Shri Prl7a Gupta: Your rulinr ·is had given hi!r"fuling I had kept quiet that it is not an insinuation' Otherwise, I also bad my grievance. Railway SEPTEMBER 5.1868 PropertJ/ ( • .1 Bm 9308 Mr. ~: 'PIe question lao My info~tilm is that UIe Speaker bas not permtUecS ~ to .,. "-,oved. "That the Bill to consolidate and ~ the law relating 10UDlawful SIiri U. M. Trivedi; It is IIOt the pqssession of railwa,y ~. as Speaker that has to pennU but the passed. by Rajya Sabha, be t8bn Chair. into couslderation." Mr. CIuIIrmaa: I am sorn. I have The motion WII$ adQp&ed. already liven my ruliq. Mr. ~ We shall naw take SIiri tJ. •. Tri~ If YOU do nOl up the clauses. want to allow ~ose ameudmeuts, that Clause l-fDeJinitiou) is a cWf~t lMttef. aut it is IIOt • 8IId N ...... : I bel to move: question of the 8JHIIIker livin, IIDme r!lling in ~ ~ct, but it is for the PNe 2, line a. add at the end: Cbair to 40 10. "but not the tools. spare parts Mr. awa.a: Anyway. I bave Aid of DO material value. and sueh wb.t I have bad tel' lay on that, and, other ~la of da,}' to dQ" therefore, that should staDd. work by railwll.}'1Jlell.... (1 J How, Sbfi N~Ilia&' bas moved bii 8hri V. II. TltYedl: t !Jan also ameadmenl,andt.bA~amendment is tabled some amendmeDtB. now before the House. Slat N...... : Clause Z (d) defines Mr. CIIaIrmaD: Under rule '19(1), !be 'railway property' as !ollows: amendments that the bon Member Sbri U. M. 'l'rlvedi has tabled have nQ1. beeP firailway property' iIlcI~des IID7 'hen proper- notice of; the notice bas .~, money or v.luahl, aecurit)' BOt been in time. So. tboee amend· or ..umal bel~ ta. or in the ments are not acceptable. cbara~ or possession of, a railway adD!inistration." . Shri tJ .... ~vedl: I think they could be alla,v-ed. I want that the foUowm, words should be added at the end, namely: Mr. CIaakIDu: Under rule 79. the)' ''but not the toot., lPU'e parts are not acceptable. of no material value. IIJld lUeh other implemen" of day to day SIIr1 V. M. Trivedi: Why are the)' work by rai!waymen. " . • ot acceptable? 'l'he!-e is no question of the rule here. These IlJIiendmeDts ClID Under the def!::.ition a~ It slands. fail· always be allowed by the Speaker or way propert,y means any property of h)' the Chair lIS soon as they are the raUways. My difficulty is tbls. I tabled. I had given notice of them ill am not arlUln, fOl" arpmeDt'. sake, 1IIe morninl before the discussion bad but I am only pointIne out the real ltegun here. and. therefore, 1 must have difficulties which the workinl rail- the right to move my amendments. waymen would feel and whicb I BUI- You (:an always waive that rule. getlt we should retnove. Mr. CbaIrman: Rule '711 (1) says. Now. a railway employee ma7 take "U notice of an amendent to a • tool after hi. work is over, to his clause ar schedule of the Bill bas house: he takes the tool aDd ,oee home DOt been given one day before tbe after the WOft is over, at flve o'clock day on which the Bin is to be COlI- or seven o'clock; he may not be .ble to Udrred. any member may object deJlosj.t it in the tool-box or In tbe tool- to the moviDI of the :amendmellt, room. and so be will have to take it and IUCh objectiQn Iball ~ home and he will have to keep it with QDless the Speaker .now. the tdm and briDe it back with him the ~ to be 1DIJVOIl:~. next day·..... '" CODIII for W8r1c. 9309 BHADRA 14, 1888 (SAKA) P10pertJI (etc.) Bill 9310 SIIrI I'ri,.. Gupta: Even spare parts. Sbrl NUDIIiar: My point is this. The railway employees are doinc work 8Iui NlIIDItiar: Now, that tool or aDd they have to c:a.n7 tools with them. IP&,re part which he 1$ taJang bome Is Railways are not a fadorY within four railWlQ" property. Anybody who Is not walls. RaIlways are spread throughout in load terms with that railw.,. em- the country. ployee may If1 to tbe police station or to the Rallw.,. Protection IWce and Mr. CIIainIaa: The hem. Member is MY 'Here Is railway prollel't7 which is repeatin, the same tIJiDc. in the possesaion of this rallwuman. ~ he may be', • or wbOlllSOliver Slut NlUllbIar: The employee. have and a police coIIItable to have that ,et to Carry tools, sometimes, to their man arrested. liOuses. Therefore, mY suhmislllon Is that the term 'rail'".,. property' has Clause 6, which is the main provision not been properly defined bere. err the kiDHln of this Bill provides that: Dr. II. S. AWJJ': The,. can take them "An7 superior olIicer or member home with the permission 01 the cdBcer. of the Force may, without an order from a Mqistrate aDd without a Slut NuaItiar: I am briDciDg this warrant. arrest ~ penon who point before the HoUle because I know hu beeQ concerned in an offence several cues out of my CIIWD ~ punishable under this Act or ezper.Ieaoe wbere I have seen thlB ldnd acaiDllt whom a reasonable __ of diftlculty being e.xpi!rieDced b7 rail- picion exists c.t his havinc been so waymeo. Railway emplOyei!Ir who CO c:oncerned. •• out of the workshop lifter their duty .... Under this mUle, even a Bailw.,. Protection Force constable can arrest that man; he need not 10 to a magis- Mr. CIIalrmaD: He has made his trate for a warrant; he need not '0 point. to anybody for any help; h~ can him- III!lf arrest that person. bt>cause it is I8id that any superior ofIIcer or SIIrI NaaIIiar: It is not on17 tools member of the Force can do so; it that are involved in this. There lire means that any constable is enouch cases wbare when the railWIQ' em- for the purpose, and he can straight- pioYees return from their work in the way go and arreat this raUwayman workshop they carry their tiftIn carrier and put him under lock-up, with them. Anybody who wants to implicate a particular employee who Dr. fi. s. ABey (NaIPur): The Rail- carries his tiffin carrier may put a nut way property in his house is presum- or a bolt inside the tiftln carrier. At ed to be stolen property. the gate, these may be confi_ted by the security staff and the man may be Sbn Nambiar: My point is that the immediately arrested and kept term 'railway property' has not been under detention. Formerl7. if the rail- defined properly. I want that it should way employee takes out a tool and is be defined vel')' ciearl7. Under this caught by the BPI'. he has to be pro- definition, 'rallway property' can mean duced before a pollce officer aDd the any of the things which can be l'OD- pollee officer has to prosecute the case. lidered as tools which are in day-tCHiay Hereafter the necessity of taking him 1IlIe by the railwaymen. to the police officer is dispensed with. The RPF-man himself C8ll do ~e havoc:. Dr. Ii. S. AIle,.: 1-irst. the Rallway- Therefore, It 'tI/ill .be all the more possible RP.Ii' to·humiliate an4 tools are presumed to be stolen Pro- tort'be harass ordinary railwaymen on the perty; then only the man can be arrested. plea of pnmmtiDg thefts. 93 II Railtoall SEPl'EMBER 5,1966 Property (etc.) Bill 9312 [Shri Nambiar] Therefore, I say that the term 'rail- Mr. Chairman: The question is: way property' has to be properly de- "Page 2, line a,-add at the end- fined. This is lacking in the definition "but not the tools, spare parts of as it stands. no material value, and such other Shri S. K. PaW: I have nothing to implements of day to day work by add to what I have said I oppose the railwaymen'." (1) amendment. The Lok Sabha divided: DivisioD No. 31] AYES [15-51 !Irs. Badc, Sbri Nambiar, 5hri Ulnanath, Shri R. Bheel, Shri P. H. Ramabadran. Shri Viahram Pratad. Shri Kandappan. Shri Ranga, Shrl Wanor. Shri Kapoor Singh, Shri Sezhiyan, Shri Yada... Shri Ram Savak. Lazmi DUI, Shri Trivedi. Shri U. M. Yudh'rir Singh, Shri NOES Aktamm. Devi. Shrimati Mantri. Shri D. D. Reo, Shri Ramapathi Aney, Dr. M. S. MaraNH, Shri RIlO. Shri Rameshwar ADd, Sbri Bhagwat Jb. Mehrotra, Shri Btlj Bibari Reo, Shri Thlrumaia Babnnath Singh, Shri Mehta. Shri Jaahvant Roy, Shri Bishwanath Balkrishna Singh, Shri Mishra, Shri Bibhuti Sadhu Ram, Shri Buappa • Shri Misra, Shti Mahesh Dutta Saha, Dr. S. K. Buwlnt, Shri Misra, Shri Sbyarn Dbar 5aiga1. Sbri A. S. BeM's, Shd Mobanty, Shri Gotulananda Samanta, Shri S. C. Bhatkar. Sbri More, Shri K. L. Saryabhllma Devi. Shrimati Chudrabhan Singh, Shri Mun.z.ni, Shri David Shah, Shrimati Jayaben Chaudhuri. Shri D. S. Muthiah. Shti Shun Nath, Shri Chaudhuri, Shrimati Kamala Nanda, Shri Shankaraiya, Shri Dolle, Shri Nasbr, ShI'i P. S. Sharma. Shri A. P. Daljit Singh, Shri Pandey. Shri R. S. Sharma. Shri D. C. Dal, Shri N. T. Pant, Shri K. C. Shea Narain. Shri na., Sbri Sudhansn Patel, Shri Rajesbwar Shinde. Shri Deahmukh. SbIi B. D. Patil. Shri M. B. Shree Narayan Da,,!, Shri Dixit, Shri G. N. Patil, Shri S. B. Sbyam Kumari Devi. Shrimati Elayaperumal Sbri Patil, Shri S. K. Siddananjappa. Shri Gowdh. Shri Patnaik, 5hri B. C. Siddhanti, Shri JagJ.cv Singh Gupta, Shri Badshah Pratap Singh, Shri Sidbeshw8r Prsad. Shri Hansds, Shri Subodh Puri, Shl'i D. D. Soy, Shri H. C. Harnni. Shri Ansat Rai, Shrimati Sahodra Bai SW:lmy. Shri M. P. Hazama, Shri J. N. Rajdeo Singh, Shrl Tiwary. Shri. D. N. Hem Raj, Shri Raju,. Shri D. B. Tiwary. ::;hri K. N Kiaen Veer, Shri Ram Sevak, Shri Tula Ram, ~ hri Kureel, Shri B. N. Ram Subhag Singh. Dr. Tyagi. Shri Labhmikanthamma, Shrimati Ramanathan Chettiar, Shn R. UpadhyaY8. Shri :3"hiva Dun Lalit Sen. Shri Rane. Sbri Vaishya, Shri M. H. Mali Mariyappa, Shri Ranjit Singh, Shri Vecrabaaappa. Shri Mallick, Shri Rama Chandra Rao, Shri Muthyai Vidyalankar. Shri A. N. MandaI. Dr. P. Rao, Shri Rajagopala Wadi Nil, Shri Maniyangadan. Shri Mr. Chalrman: The result of the "That clause 2 stand part of the division is: Ayes 15; Noes 97. Bill". ,.he motion toas negatived. The motion was adopted. Mr. Chairman: The question is: Clause 2 was added to the Bi!!. 93 I 3 Railway BHADRA 14, 1888 (SAKA) Property (etc.) Bil! 93I4 Clause 3-(Penalty JOT unlawful pos- possessed the property. I kn()W rDil- session of railway property) way properties are bein~ sold in auC- tion in the open market. They are Shri Nambiar: I beg to movc. available throughout the "ountry anri (i) Page 2, lines 18 and 19,-omit, everybody who is conner:ted with r;;il- "unless he proves that the rail- ways may purchage such PI8pcrty. way property came into his Once such property is purchased, pro- possession lawfully,'· (2) perty such as scrap iron or rails or other items, the purchaser 3tocks it at (ii) Page 2, a place and uses it. Subsequ>!ntly. (1) line 21,-loT "five years" after two or three ",ears, the RPF n· ay substitute .tone year". come and charge the person With (ii) lines 21 to 25,-omit-"and having stolen the property and say in the absence of spedal 'You prove that you came into poss~ and adequate reasor,s to sian of this property lAwfully'. He be men tioned in the j udt:- cannot prove it after three or lour ment of the court, such years; the receipt may have bee" lost imprisonment shall not be or not traceable; .till all ih:e property less than one year and such might not have been utilisE'd by hirr_ fine shall not b~ less than Therefore, when a 7JrCSf'cution is one thousand rupees" (3) launched against him, th" O'lUs must lie on the prosectuion to prove :hat he (iii) Page 2- unlawfully possessed it. That is :he (i) line 27,-loT "five·' ,uDsti· normal law of the land. Why 3hould tute IItwO". this person who holds the property gc to the court and prove that he pur- (ti) lines 28 to 31,-omit-U and chased this property through lawful in the absence of special authority? Whatever provislon is rnade and adequate reasons to be here must be in consonance with the mentioned in the judgment law of the land, the Criminol Procedure of the court, such ialpri- Code. Why should there be a differ- sonment shall not be less ent procedure in this case? Hence this than two years and such amendment. fine shall not be less than two thousand 8hri Tyagi (Dehra Dun) : According rupees". (4) (0 the han. Member, if any stolen pro- In order that my first amendment may perty is found out after thr>!e I), four years, he mus~ be allowed t heeD it'! be p coperly understood, I shall read out the first portion of the clause. 8hri Nambiar: My amCHGr:lent only "Whoever is found, or is pruved says that the onus of proof shollia li~ to haVe been. in possession of any on the prosection. Otherwis~, it will railway proper~y reasc'oably .sus- be putting the law in r€vc"e order, pected of having been stoicn or making he so-called accused anSWer unlawfully obtained shall, unless the charge and prove as to hmv he he proves that the railway property came into possessIon of it. came into his possession iawfully. . be punishable ..." Prima facie it must be the responsi· bility on the side of the prQoeculur to I seek the deletion of the phmsc prove it. unless he proves that the railway pro- perty came into his possession law- Dr. M. 8. Aney: I have one reply to fu]!y'. Otherwise, it will be the res- give him. If he proves thnt it is .nil- ponsibility of the accused to prove that way property, he has Moved every- he got the property lawfully. Acc()rd- thing. ine to the normal law of the land, it should be the responsibility of the 8hri Nambiar: My next amendrr,ent prosecution to prove that he unlawfully is this. RaHway SEPTEMBER 5,1966 Praperty (etc.) Bill 931 6 Shri U. M. Trivedi: I wish to speak godown of the railwa'y, yOu prove it. on his first amendment. The first lt will be a very difficult problem for amendment must be taken up first. each one of Us to meet this type of charge. Ordinarily, under the :Evidence Mr. Chairman: 'i'here are four Act, the possession of a stolen property amendments. Let all these be taken can be presumed against an accused together. person, but the possession of 'lther pro- perty cannot be presumed to be thut Shrl U. M. Trivedi: It will not be of stolen property. possible. Moving is ail right, but once we are taking of the onus of proof or think the amendment of Mr. burden of proof upon a particular Nambiar requires proper consideration. person, that is a principle of law which This is a very important principle of is involved so far as this particular law and this will create difficulties of amendment is concerned, and I will an unprecedented nature in view fJf thE' apply my mind only to this. fact that the railway property defined under this Act is not railway property I would have readily agreed even to identifiable by any marks. this proposition that a presumption may be made against the accused on the cround that it is railway property, and Shri Bade: There is one more ques- if the railway property is marked then tion. While not agreeing with Mr. the presumption would have been Nambiar, and wHh due respect to my easier, but what has happened in this leader, I bave got one difficulty. I case is this. The definition of rahway want to ask the Railway Minister this property today has been widened and question. While proving the offence vddened in this sense that railway pro- in the court, you are to prove in the perty includes any goods, money or beginning that it is railway proper:y. that is in charge of or in the posses- valuable security or ~nimal belonging to, or in the charge or possession of, sion of the railway administration, and a railway administration. 'That is to once you prove that it is the property say, any commodity, merchandise, of or in charge of the raHway adminis- passing on the railway and oarried by tration Or in railway possession, then the railway may have marks of a dif- the burden of proof is on the accused. ferent variety, or may have no marks, If that is the meaning given here . it might be bulk. If it is such a bulk and if the presumption is drawn Shri Nambiar: That is nnt given. against a person that he is in unlawful possession of it, then difficulty will Shri Bade: Then, of cours~, even my arise. It is quite true that this princi- lee'] . :'vir. Trivedi, may not have any ple would have worked and would have objection. but even that is nJt clear applied if it related to railway pro- here. Is that the meaning? The Rail- perty which is so identifiable, but way may clarify. where the railway property include;; Shri Nambiar rose- thin;::s which are being hand:ed ~r are in the charge of the railways, the rail- Mr. Chairman: Mr. Namblar has ways are trustees of that property, the spoken. railway as a carrier is in possession of the property, and if an offence ;5 made Shri Nambiar: I have to speak or: out. the difficulty will be to establish the other amendments. that the person has come in posseSSIOn of it by lawfUl means. That is [lot Mr. Chairman: Why did you not possible. Each one of us is likelv to speak then? h(' involved. 16 hrs. We purchase some wheat ~nd sO"lle Shri Namblar: Then cbjection came railway officer comes and says this do not have much argument except wheat must have come rrOlD .the to explain. 931 7 Railway BHADRA 14,1888 (SAKA) Property (etc.) Bill 93 In clause 3(a), for the lirst ollence, (b) for the second or subsequent lor imprisonment of fi vc years I have offence, wi.h i1npri~{\rlme'lt for substituted one year. If a fit ~t offence a term which may extend to has got any meaning, then five years two years and aisa with fine." should not come there, it must be one year. For the second uffence, he agaL'l Do not dictate terms to 'the Judge, says five years. What is the distinc- this is my popint. 'rhis he can ac- tion he makes between the Iirst ollence cept. and second offence? ~herefore, J have substituted one year for the Grst 8hri U. M. Trivedi: Here 3iso, al- offence and two years for "che second though Mr. Nambiar's argument is a offence. limited one, my point is very simple. Clause 3(a) says: I say that we have got the nomlal law. "for the first offence, with im- In the Criminal Procedure Code also prisonment for a tenn which mal' there is a provision that the first of- extend to five years, ur with fine, fender cannot be sentenced to impri- or with both. . . sonment if he is of a particular age. We then comes extraneous matler- have got another law, whiCh is known as the Probation of Offend- ". . . and in the hbsence of ers Act. Under that law special and adequate r~asons La be also, the first offender under mentioned in the iud~ment of the a particular age and of a partirular age court, such imprisonment shall not cannot be sentenced. The general law be less than one vear and such fi!:>? of our land and the principle of inter- shall not be less than O:1e thousand rupees." pretation of la";" is that a special law does not derogate from the general Tltis addition is a directive wnich i3 law. If that is the position, this pro- given to the Judge. We are now telling vision of law is redundant and such the Judge that he should not give any redundancy must not be created in law. punishment which is less than one When it is an offence relating to pro- year, and if at all he is giving only perly easily identificable with sections one year's punishment, he must give 379 or 380 of the IPC, for identical reasons for that. Why should you offences making a discrimination with- feUer the hands of a Judge, who is out reasonable grounds and providing going to decide the case? This leaves for the first offence and other offences a very bad taste, and is very bad in different sentences of five years is the sense that you are now dictat.ing illegal. This legislature shouJd not terms even to the Judge as to how he make illegal laws which are il- must write his judgment. If at all legal ab initio. The Home Minister is you mean to have rule of law, then here and the Law Minister may also have the rule of law. If you want to be called for and asked to submit his have the rule of Mr. Pati!, as Mr. opinion whether such a law could be Patil's law, then IE'! it come. With all enacted in this House; we should no: respect to the han. Minister, I can en3ct this law knowing that it is an understand a particular codification illegality in itself. Therefore, I say or jurisprudence or laW being enact- that this sub-clause must be omitted ed by Mr. Pati!o and there must be a general provision where there shOUld not be such a Mr. Chairman: Please speak strictly heavy fine. Our Cr.P.C. and I.P.C. say on the Bill. that if the offence is of a particular Shri Nambiar: Therefore, you should type the sentence can be such, the fine remove this. After my amendment, can go up to a particular amount. -the clause will read like this: That is a very wise piece of legislation "(a) for the first 0llence. with im- which had stood the test of time and prisonment for a term which it should not be interfered with sinlPIy may extend to one year. or some sentiments of ours come into con- wit)!. fine, or with both; Ilict with the ideas of anti social activi- 93 1 9 Railway SEPTEMBER 5, 1966 Property (etc.) Bill 9320 [Slu'; U. M. Trivedi.l ties of human bemgs. Anti-social acti- 'are there, there is no difficulty to Clause 3 we," added to the Bill. prove that it is railway property. Clause 4- Punishment fOT connivance a[fmcesl Shri RaDga: It must be stated then. Mr. Chairman: There are no amend- Shri S. K. Patil: It need not be ments to this clause. atated. It is not like any property that any respectable citizen will pos- Shri Nambiar: I do not have any sess. It has not happened and that amendments to this clause but have cannot happen. It is railway's res- I ponsibility to prove that it is railway some remarks to make on this clause. I bring an amendment, again this property when it goes to the magis- If feeling Of dejection or rather disap- trate. That cannot be changed by proval of whatever amendment that I any law by us. I would appeal to bring, is expressed and the han. Min- them to give a chance for this en- ister therefore does not want to agree actment to operate and to find out to the amendments. Therefore, I whether there are any questions of have not brought in any amendment this type which arise. I give this to this clause. assurance on the floor of this House and if it is found to be there, 1 shall myself come forward to amend this This cl&use is very ambiguouS and enactment. I am unable to accept is very badly worded. I shall read these amendments. it: "Any owner or occupier of land Mr. Chairman: You present your or building, or any agent of such amendments 2, 3 and 4. I shall put owner or occupier in charge of all of them. the management of that land or building, who wilfully connives Shri Ranga (Chitloor): Put the &t an offence against the provi- first amendment first. sions of this Act, shall be punish- able with imprisonment for a term Mr. Chairman: I shall put the which may extend to five years, amendments one after the other. I shall put first amendment No. 2 to or with fine, or with both." the vote. This is very sweeping. Amendment No. 2 was put and negatived. Mr. Chairman: Are you giving your own version of the clause? I am not Mr. Chairman: I shall now put suggesting any; I am just putting a amendment No. 3 to the vote. question. Amendment No. 3 was put and Shri Nambiar: I am opposing this negatived. clause. Now, not only "any owner or occupier of land or building" but Mr. Chairman: shall now put "any agent of such owner or occu- amendment No. 4 to the vote. pier" shall be punishable. All these Amendment No.4 was put and people are covered in this provisioh. negatived. It is something like the hand or the tentacles of an octopus stretched all Mr. Chairman: Now, I shall put the over the world or at least all over clause to the vote. The question is: our country so that they can find fault at anybody at any corner and haul "That clause 3 stand part of the him up. And then who is to haul up Bill." such people? Not even an officer; any constable or any person of that The motion was Q.dopted. rank in the RPF is enough to do that. Railway SEPTEMBER 5, 1966 Property (etc.) Bill [Shri Nambiar] He can enter the building and arrest country today, the fact remains that anybody! This is something un- persons are present at the time when known. Why should such a sweep- the offence takes place. Many times ing provision be brought in? If there the people are present and they se<;< is theft, you must stop it and punish that the offence is taking place the thief. I can understand that. For before their eyes, but they do not that, you cannot make a law so com- want to interfere with it and they prehensive, so omnipotent and omni- think that it is wise to remain aloof. present. That is unknown, and it This is very derogatory to the pro- cannot be accepted. So, it will be gress in any established society. graceful on the part of the hon. Min- From this angle, if the owner or the ister if he brings an amendment and occupier of the land in whose pre- puts the clause in the normal way. sence the offence takes place connives As it is, it is an abnormal clause. at it and keeps quiet and does not Therefore, I humbly submit that the help the law, it is just possible that hon. Members, without considering there may be proceedings against party affiliations and realising that him. This will be such a deterrent this is a clause which is so worded on him that he will not allow any that it may be challenged in the offence to take place. This will be courts tomorrow, will kindly make helpful not only to the proper con- the hon. Minister bring in certain duct of the law but also to the people necessary amendments, or, if he does who feel that they can do anything not do it, I would request hon. Mem- they like. Therefore, this provision bers and the hon. House to reject is good. this clause. So far as the punishment is con- 8hri Bade: With alI respect, I dis- cerned, the person will not be punish- agree with my hon. friend 8hri ed unless he wilfully connives. It Nambiar, because, if the law is there is not easy to prove, as Shri Bade it should be all pervading. It sh(\uld said, wilful conniVance. Therefore, be complete. There should be no this clause is nicely .vafted and is lacuna. If there is a lacuna tilen necessary. there is no law. Here the words are "wilfully connives". It is very Shri U. M. Trivedi: When I look difficult to prove in the court that a into clause 4, I feel that there is nO person connives wil'ully, as in sO necessity for this provis10n. The many cases and particularly the ex- Indian Penal Code provides for abet- cise cases. This will defeat the pro- ment; if it is a question of abetment visions of clause 4. When I read in taking away any stolen property, this section, I thought it was a very then the offence of abetment can be good thing for the lawyer or the there. advocate to plead that this is such and such a thing and that the person Shri Reda: There is a difference has not wilfully connived. If you are between connivance and abetment. asking the prosecution to prove it, the prosecution miserably fails when 8hri U. M. Trivedi: According to the onus is on them to prove that a him there is; according to me, there person wilfully connives. I request is none. Whoever abets before or Shri Nambiar that he should not be after any commission of offences, is afraid in this case. On the contrary as liable to ppunishmeDt as the man he should thank the hon. Minister who commits the offen~e. So, this Shri S. K. Patil for using the words provision appears to me to have been "wilfully connives". worded by somebody who was o"e~ Shri Rella (Nizamabad): 'Sir, if you intelligent, and overintelligent in the 100" into the conditions of the sense that he wanted to save some Railway BHADRA 14,1888 (SAKA) Property (etc.) Bill 9326 scoundrels in Sabarmati and in from where theft of railway property Ahmedabad, where they enter into is possible. Suppose a man passes by this business of storing the stolen that side carrying certain materials- property of the railway, and the rail- switches, batteries or some conduit way is entirely impotent to do any- pipes-are not marked as railway pro- thing with them. Their approach is perty. Then, the man remaining in so great that even if a report is made that land or building has got to ask to the police, the Divisional Superin- everybody, whosoever is carrying tendents see to it that any station such things, master who wants to enforce any provision of law against thieves gets an order of transfer within a month; ordinarily, a station master remains That is one thing. in his station for five years; but the moment that he takes mto his head Secondly, as Mr. Trivedi said. there that stealing should not take place are gangs of hooligans. The Minister in the station and that the scoundrels knows that when the wagons or should be caught hold of for keep- coaches come out of the workshop, ing the stolen property of the Gov- they are stripped of their fittings like ernment, of the railways, and that switches, batteries, etc. by gangsters they should be dealt with, then, those who sell them again to the railway persons exert their influence and get contractors or railway stores. If the station master transferred. There- somebody is forced, under threat of fore, the word "wilfully" is used. I death or something like that, to con- therefore suggest that you should not ceal the fact and not divulge it, I give this protection of "wilfully con- want to know whether that is also nives". If you think that they have tantamount to connivance or not. connived, they have connived; that is enough. In this case, I want to be a I also feel that such a long-range little harder than Shri S. K. Patil clause embracing everybody without himself. I want that because'this is specifically making any provision IS- an anti-social activity of such a grave not good in law. nature which is causing serious loss to the railways- ~T ir0 "I'~~):q- (f~) : "'l1I'fm Shri Ranga: Out Heroding Herod! ~ro: [!!iT ii. 0 o;ro ~'hr] Shri U. M. Trivedi: This provisioD mfu1:'3"if'IfT~~'M I ~l:Tit~ is inconsistent with the general pro- ~ ~ ~f;;r ~I~ visions made in Cr. P.C. There is a ~ ~m it 'ffif'fi"""IiT'!ml"~ ~ '.:,n\'fi:r provision in the Cr.P.C. which pro- vides that any other offence which is it~~f This applies, as far as my understand- "Any superior officer or mem- ing goes, to offences under the Bill ber of the Force may, without an and not I.P.C. offences. Therefore, order from a Magistrate and there is no ambiguity. It is for those without a warrant, arrest, any offences that this applies. (Inter- person who has been concerned rupti [Shri Nambiar] not elaborate it further. A person • cognizable offence according to of the calibre of our Railway Minis- douse 6. According to this clause its ter can very easily understand it. .traightaway becomes a cognizable So, I would request him, for Hea- .!fence. We have just passed clause ven's sake, if not for the sake of 5 which says that it is not cognizable. Lok Sabha, to accept my amend- Clause 5 says: ment. Shri Bade: Clause 6 makes the UN otwithstanding anything con- offence cognisable. What is the tained in the Code of Crimi- meaning of cognizable? I would re- nal Procedure, 1898, an off- quest tbe hon. Minister to explain ence under this Act shall not what is cognizable. There should be be cognizable." no ignorance or vagueness in enact- ments. Here cognizable means a By this clause 6 you allow a rak- rakshak or a constable cannot arrest. ~hak c::n: any member of the force to Under the normal law "cognizable" arrest a person, without an order from means any constable can arrest with- a Magistrate or without a warrant, out a warrant; if it is Hnon-cogniza- who is concerned with the affair. It ble", not even a high officer can means it automatically becomes cogni- arrest. But in this Bill tbe position zable. Therefore, clause 5 and clause is different. Why should it not be 6 are in juxtaposition, one is quite explained? It is just like the saying reverse to the other. This is absolute- that a magistrate, new from college, ly wrong. If it goes to the Supreme said: if it is a warrant case, issue a Court-it need not go to the Supreme warrant; it is a summons case, Court, even a High Court will finish if issue a summons. Such colossal it-they will finish with it and all our labours here, the several hours that ignorance is sometimes shown in have been spent on it wbich in terms courts. But that should not find a of rupees will run into thousands, will place in our enactm€'l1ts. The defi- all be wasted. This will become a nition of words should be clear and dead letter. I cannot understand why unambiguous. , tbe han. Minister is so persistent in Shri S. K, Patil: This clause has passing a legislation which will be of been drafted with full knowledge no value legally, because even a lay- and "sanity", as mentioned by my man-no lawyer is required-can hon. friend. understand that clause 5 and clause 6 are opposite to each cAher. How can "'lY ;;f'li<'t f"~ fuqr;a-y (~:K'''c) : it be done? Therefore, in consonance with the provision that has already Shri Kapur Singh: In clause 6, its retention in this section is likely, there exists the word, "concerned", in not only to defeat its object, but to 'lhe last line-"against whom a create a certain type of confusion reasonable SuspICIOn exists of his and also inconvenience for the pub- Aaving been 90 concerned." This ex- lic. Therefore, either some more pression, "concerned", is incapable of precise word should be introduced in -j udicial precision. It is not already this clause for, "concerned", or thil part of the accepted repertoire of le- clause should be dropped. tal terminology and it is not capable uf being so accepted. "concerned", in Shri S. K. PatiI: I have nothing to the ordinary dictionary sense, may add. have two meanings--one, he may be Mr. Chairman: I will now put mentally seized of the fact of theft; amendment No. 5 of 8hri Nambiar to if a person is mentally seized with the the vote of the House. factum of theft, he may be 'concern- ed' with it. Another meaning of Amendment No.5 was put and "concerned" might be, having any negatived. relation, subjective or objective, what- aoever with the factum of theft. Mr. Chairman: The question is: These are the dictionary meanings by which this term, "concerned", is "That clause 6 stand part of the Bill." accepted. It is a very loose term and The Lok Sabh4 divided: Division No. 321 AYES [16·50 hra. Akkamma Devi, Shrimlti Kri abna. ShriM. R. Ranjit Singh, Shri AI •• , Shri A. S. Lakshmikanthamma. ShrimAti Rao. Shri J aganatha Aney, Dr. M. S. Laakar. Shri N. R. Rao, Shri Muthyal Sabunath Singh, Shri Laxmi Bai, Shrimati Rao, Shrj Ramapathi Baja~ Shri KamaIn.,..n Majithia, Shri Reddi, Dr. B. GQpala Balmiki. Shri Mabichami. ShrJ Reddy. Shri H. C. LiDIa Buappa. Sh:i Malaviya, Shri K. D. Roy. Shri Bishwanath Ben. Shri Mali Mariyappa, Shri Sadhu Ram, Shri Bhanja Dco. Shri L. N. Mallick, Shri Ram. Chandra Samanta. Shri S. C. Bhanu Prakash Singh. Shli Maniyangadan. Shd Saty&bhama Devi. Shrim&ti Borooah. Shri P. C. Maundi, Shri Sen, Shri A. K. Chanda, Shlimati Iyotm8 Matcharaju, Shti Shah. Shrimati Jayaben Chandrabhan Singh, Shri Mathur, Shri Shiv Charan Shar.karaiY8. Shri Chaudhry, Shri Chandramani Lal Mehrouu, Shri Bra; Bihari Sharma, Shri A. p~ Chaudburi, Shrimati Kamal. Mehta, Shri Jaahwant ShaIma, Shri D. C. Chavda. Shrimati Jorabcll. Minimata, Shrim8ti Shaahi Ranjan, Shri Daljit Singh, Shri Mirza, Shri Baku Ali Sheo, Narain. Shri nu, Dr.M. M. Misra, Shri Mahesh DUlU Shinde, Shri Dal, Shri B. K. Mohanty, Sbri Gokulananda Shree Narayan D ... Shri Oa., Shri N.T. More, Shri K. L. Sfddananjappa. Shri DaSl, Shli C. Muthiah. Shri Sidhanti, Shri Jegdev Sjnah Deshmuth. Shri B. D. Nanda, Shri Sinha, Shri Satya Narayan Dethmukh, Shrimati Nashr, Sbri P. S. , Vimalabai P Sinha, S~imati Tarkcahlr.ri Pandey. Shri VJahwa Nub Blayaperumal. Shri Snatak, Shri Nardeo Patil Sbri M. B. Gab--j Singh Rao. Shri SOY. Shri H. C. Patil,Shri S. K. Gana. Devi. Shrimati Swam,.. Shri M. P. Prat.p Singh, Shri Gupta. Shrt Badshah Tiwary. Shri D. N. Purl. Shri D. D. Ha"ani, Shri An,_r Tula Ram. Shri Rai, Shrimati Sahodra Bai Hem Raj. Shrt utey, Sbri Raju, Shri D. B. JIIdh..,. Shri M. L. Upadhyaya, Shri Shiva Dilu Ram Sewak. Sbri Jadh .... Shri TuI,hid.. Vaishya, Shri M. B. .Ram Subball Sinah. Dr. JamunaciCl'i. Shrimeti VenkatBSubbaiah. Shri P. RIhIl. Swarup. Sbri loeh!. '·Shrim.ti Subblcid "'adlwa.Shri Jt~.n Veer, Sbri . R.abe, Shrl .Yada••• Sbri B. P. 9335 Rai.lway SEPTEMBER !t, 1966 Prope1't1l (Etc.) Bill 9336 NOES A ....rell. Shrj Kandapcn. Sbri Umanath, Shri Buts Singh. Shri Kapoor Sinah. Shri VJshram Prasad, ShI'i Nambiar. Shri Chatterjee, Shri H. P. ".riorI Shri Roy. Dr. Saradiah Gopalan. Shri A. K. Y.~p.] Sin8h. Sbrj Gupta. Shri Priya SC:lhiyan. Shri Kacbhavaiya. Shri H. C. Trivedi, Shri U. M. Yudh.,ir Singh, Shri Shri Sidheswar Prasad (Nalanda): and it provides that that culprit mup am for "Ayes". be produced before another officer of the Railway Protection Force. I do Shri P. KUDhan (Palghat): am not think that can be correct. When- for "Noes", ever an offence is committed. accord- ing to the law of the land, one is to Shri R. Barua (Jorhat): I am for be produced at the Police Station bt- ~Ayes". fore a Police oftlcer who must p: ose- cute and not a member of the Rail- Mr. Cha.innan: The result of the way Protection Force. There is no divjsion i,,: law which J)revents anybody from catching a t)rief. Even an ordinary Ayes 102. citizen can do that. Thieves are no' Noes 17. caught only by the Police. The police is not so big a force in the country The motion is carried, that they can stop every theft. Theft The motion ww! adopted. is stopped or prevented or a thief ja arrested or apprehended by a citizen. C!o.u.se 6 WW! added to the Bill. Every citizen has got a right to arrest or apprehend a person if he is found Clause 7-(Disposal of peTSON the of thieving. Therefore o7Tested.) in act when a thief is apprehended, he must Shri Nambiar: Sir, I beg to move:- be brought before the police officer so that he can prosecute him under the Page 3, lines 8 and .9~ law and the culprdt will have the fOT "officer of the Force" .!UbstiMe advantage of legal shelter and defen~ ing himself, He can move a wrIte "Police Station". petition before a magistrate, get bail his & per tliis clauS&- and come out. He can arrange for defence. This is required for normal "Every person arrested for an prosecution and normal defence in an1' offence punishable under this criminal proceedings But here, if h., Act shall. if the arrest was made is arrested and produced before an by a person other than an officer ofIlcer of the Force. what is these of the Force, be forwarded with- l8fet;r of the person so apprehended! out delay to the nearest officer of What is the defence that he can ar- the Force." (6). range? Therefore. an ordinary citizen', fundamental right is in jeopardy. Be My amendment seeks that he must Is being handed over to a person whO be forwarded without delay to the is not authorised at all, It is vert nearest Police Station. I am tryIDg clear. Supposmg a person has com- thereby to bring the normal Police mitted an offence and he is produced Force of the State into operation. before an Ulega! person, he may beaf Here what is meant is that anybody, him, he may assault him and be JI1Q" who is apprehended of conniving at do anything to him. Tbere is node- or involved:in the theft of railwlI7 tem:e for Ule other person. So Ile property, can be arrested by a mem- !Dust be taken to the aareA pone. bar oaf the RailWBY Pnltection Force lltatlon aDd produced before a II01'\CIt 9337 Railwall BHADRA 14, 1888 (SAKA) Property (Etc.) Bill 9338 officer so that he can be dealt with judicial precision. ''Without un- under the law at the land and that the reasonable delay" or "without culprit will haV'e every opportunity undue delay" would be to defend hirr-oSc;t and avail of the so capable, but "without fundamental right that is guaranteed delay" is not so. "With- by the Constitution. out delay" is only a subjective Mr. Chairman: Before we proceed concept, while "without unreason- turther, may I take the sense of the able delay", or "without undu~ House that we may sit tor half-an- delay", is an objective quantum. hour more today, that is, upto 6 0' Therefore, the Clause as it stands, Clock? is not a judicially phras~d Clause. Several hon. Members: No, no. Mr. Chairman: Would the hon. Miruster ltke to say anything? Mr. Chairman: All ~ight. Sh!"i Bade. 8hri S. K. Pati1: I have nothing to Shri Bade: I have got an objection add. ~ this clause. It says: ''Every person arrested for an Mr. Chairman: Clause 1. along with offence punishable under this Act Amendment 6, is before the House. shall, if the arrest was made by I now put Amendm~nt No. 6 to the a person other than an officer of vote of the House. the Force ...... Amendment No.6 was put and Now, suppose an arrest is made bv negatived. • person, th c t is, by a con"table or by Mr. Chairman: The question is: a sepoy, ·is he compelled to produc~ him before an officer of the Force? It "That Clause 7 stand part of the says. 'a P£>CSOn other than an officer Bill .... of the Force' and that means an arrest or a seizure can be made by a private The motion was adopted. person or a constable of the town, the Clause 7 was added Lo the B.l! aub-station may be just near the town, and the nee rest officer of the force Clause 8.- Inquiry hour to be made may be far away from it. Under this against aTTested persons) clause, even the constable is compelled to take that man to the nea:"est officer Mr. Chairman: Now Clause 8 is be- of the Force. On the contrary, it fore the House. ought to have been to take him to the Shri Nambiar: I move: police station. Instead of that. this provision compe's the constable to go (i) Page 3, lines 12 and 13,- to the officer of the Force. That is for "pcoceed to inquire into the something Eke creating double Gov- eharge against such person". ernment in the country. Tha~ is very objectionable. It will create anomaly substitute and more hardship. Therefore, I ''handover the case to the near- have got objection to Clause 7. est Police officer fo" investiga- tion and prosecution." (7) Shri Kapur Singh: I had an objec- (ii) Page 3~ tion to Clause 6 and so is my obJf'C- tion to Clause 7 also. It rioes not Omit lines 14 to 31. (8) oeem to have been screened by lcgally My amendment No.7 is this. Clauslt trained persons inasmuch as there 8(1) read as follows: occurs an expression, U •••• be for- warded without delay to the nearest "When any person is arrested. officer of the Force"" by an officer of the Force fOe an "W,ithout delay" is a loose ex- ot!ence punishHble unde- thi< Ad pression aDd it is not capable at or is forwarded to him under 9339 Railway SEPTEMBER 5, 1966 Property (Etc.) Bill [Shri Nambiar] section 7, he shall proceed to In- Hr. Chairman: Urder, IJrder. Undn quire into the charge against clause 8, his amendment is number 7. ~uch person.". He may speak only on that. Instead of: 17 hrs...... he shall proceed to In- Shri Nambiar: Number 8 is als. quire into the charge against there. That is, according to my such person". amendment 7, the Clause gets com- I want to introduce: pleted, namely, " • . . .. he shall handover the "When any person IS arrEsted case to the nearest Police Officer by an officer of the Force for an for investigation and prosecution." olfence punishable under this Act ...... he shall proceed to in- or is forwarded to him under quire into the charge against section 7, he shall handover the such person" should be deleted. case to the nearest Police officer I take strong objection to the handl- for investigation and prosecu- ing of the case by the Railway Pro- tion.". tec~ion Force. They are not trained It is the police officer's job to in- for that purpose. The culprit doe. vestigate and prosecute. Therefore. not get the advantage of legal pel- all that is provided here namely that lIOnS. It is also wrong because the the officer of the Prote<.1ion Force could Railway Protection Force is not, after investigate and prosecute elc., does all, a Police Station. What is the away with that normal p"actice or jurisdiction under which an officer or normal procedure. So, my amend- the Force can arrest the citizens? Un- ment No. 8 is in continuation ot my less and until a person IS proved to be amendment No. 7 which goes to shoW a culprit by a competent court, he that the whole proviso should be re- continues to be not at fault. Funda- moved. I haw' my argument against mental rights are guaranteed to the this provI~o" Even a cursory reading citizens under the Constitution. But of this provision will convince you. under this specific provision, he does Sub-clause 2 says: not get the fundamental right. When- "Fo" this purpose, the officer of ever a person is arrested, according to the Force may exercise the same the Constitution, he should be taken powers and shall be subject tt to the nearest Police Station and the same provisions as the officer- within 24 hours he .nust he produced m-charge of a police station may before a Magistrate. Here all those exercise and is subject to unaer provisions of fundamental rights do the Code of Criminal Procedure, not exist. He can be produced before 1898, when investigating a cogni- a Protection Force. What shall he zable case.... do? All these are questions of funda- Under this provision, the moment a mental rights, and fundam"ntal rights case is brought before the P; otection cannot be deprived so soon ~~ in so Force. the officer concerned assumes all sweeping a manner as he wants. the powers Of a police officer automa- Therefore, I move that he must be tically and he is to be treated "" a handed over to the aearest Po1ice police officer under the Code officer for investigation anci prosecu- of Criminal Procedure, 1898. tion. The powers of the state My next amendment is number 8, police are taken over by him, which reads: and they are automatically handed over to him. That is an infringement "Page 3- of the Constitutional provision. Under Omit lines 14 to 31." the Constitution, the State police has Bu"-Clause 2 and proviso (a) and got certain powers .... (b)-the whole thing-should be Mr. ChaIrmaD: The hon. Member Is omitted. repeating his arguments. 934I Grievences BHADRA 14, 1888 (SAKA) at CHS doctors 93 and they should be sent by rotation, not said 'I will look into it'. And he did at the whim of somebody in the secre- a good piece of work. He was able to tariat, not at the whim of some official £ive some modicum of justice to the They should be sent by rotation and doctors who belong to the conl";bu- there should be a regular roster of tory healtn sprYlee..... their rotation, that they should not be stuck in the mud. that they shr4uld go Next time again there was trouble- there for a specified period and they bec"us~ I think there is bound to be should then be allowed to come trouble ill the Health Minist"-, as back and take over other work. long as the afl'ai: 5 of the Health It is not that you should divide up Ministry are run jn the way they are the doctors into three cl:lsses: onE, being run--and the late PriIT'e MinIs- first-class citizens Who will sticle tc ter. Shri Lal Bahadur Sh<:stri. came Delhi. second, second-class citizens to'\he resue of us all. We are' an in- whe will go to the rural areas and thE' terested in doct0rs. He said til 1\ ::';'l1'i thil"(; C1::'58 W'10 will go to the "nny Dha rna \~ira \U1u was the Cabinet sr:;l"vice or som2tn!n~ -ikr:- that. \~?e Secretary at tlwt time ",'ould Jr:.-k in- all \V8!1t th8.t they shOUld nIl b('~ re- t) the mattet. garded as l~rst-class clzizens of thf= \\~2.t I !ne3TI to S~ly ;c; th~~ ~,.:~':. n- so\'ereign Republic of India. That ever there was any trouble, thE' que,- is what they want. tion was taken from the purview of Moreove:', they want that they the Health Ministry and was handed should be allowed to come back from over either to the Home Millister or their posts in far off places. 1 think to the Cabinet Secreta, y 0): to some-- all doctors are not vicgins or unmar- \lody else so that some justice would ried persons. This is my !nisfortul'e. be done to them, What happened was Suppose I am sent to some far-off this. Before any action could be place. I do not mind because I h1:ve taken. Shri Dharma Vira was trans- nobody to look after. But these doc- ferred. tors have their children. their fami- lies. Their children are studying he:e. Ever since she has been Union They have to look after t:1eir familie£ Health Minister, I must say very "or- ThC'::'efore, they say 'When we are senl rowfully that she has b~en m~kjng to some other place, our houses, our statements which somet:mes ccmtra- establishment here, should be kept in- dict each othe--because I think it is tact~ because given the ~mOlUll1ents the virtue of Ministers, especially lady they have t')d3Y, it is very difficult for Ministers, to contradict themselves. them to afford two estabIishm"nt~. What do the doctors want? I sub- They have their families here, thfY mIt very respectfully th3t t>,ey do not have to look after the education ot want aflything much, They are a their children and they have also to patriotic, law-abiddng people who are pay for themselves in the places whele prepared to go to rural a"eas, people they are sent. They on'y want that who are prepared to do service in the tr,ey should be able to afford all these. Army, people who do not want that No. guarantee has been given to them they should stick to t>,e metronolis 90 far as this thing is concerned. like some of us or like some persons whose names I do not want to men- tion. They are not th~t type of per- Again, it is not a question of trans- Ions. . fer. It IS a question ot promotion. I Thev want th'lt ~o ti,inO"s .h,>1'ld know, Mr. Cbair>nan how fair-minded be gu~ranteed. The first I•. that if they you are, Having been a Minister.· ... 9345 BHADRA 14, 1888 (SAKA) ~ CHS doct01'S (HAH Dis.) (Interruption) for more than 15-20 that. But this is the impression 'years, you know where the shoe pin- which everybody gets. Rajkumari '. ches so tar as the employee IS con- Amrit Kaur was not a doctor. There cerned. Now, in the case <>f promo- was no trouble in her time. Shri tions, I tell you our Government is Karmarkar was not a doctor; there 1he master of circumlocution, IS the was no trouble in her time ...... master of rigmarole, is the master of going round the subject without corn- Mr. ChaIrman: Shri Karmarkar is ing to the point. This is what has not a lady doctor. happene.:t. Of course, this is not always applicable. But I submit v?ry Shri D. C Sharma: Fortunately, we TeSpectfully that so far as promotIOnS haVe a lady doctor now in charge. are concerned these persons have come through the UPSC, no doubt, Shri Nambiar: Unfortunately. and they are there. But a certain Shri D. C. Sharma: Trouble has beer. date has been prescribed .... brewing ever since she took charge Therefore, I appeal to her to sel! to it Shri Surendranath Dwivedy (Ken- that these persons are not again asked drnpa:a): It is up-grading, no promo- to sit :::or the examination, these per- tion. sons 3re not asked to go hefore selec- tie-!} ;Jests to difficult areas wi~hout Shri D. C. Sharma: Yes, I am very getting due allowance. I Vi auld ask her thankful to the hon. Member for the to make a ca tegorieal statement about correctIOn. Now those person who the grievances of the doctors, of which are there already upgraded will be she knows more than I do. r say that thl!!l'e. The other pe' sons will have to the ,doctors have been in great trouble Ilave a test and will have to go be- for the last two or three years, and I fore the UPSC. It is like asking a would ask her to have sympathy with man who has passed the MA examina- them and not to give them more trou- tion, 'Since you are not able to get a bles than they have already had. job within two years, you will have again to sit for your MA exami.'1ation Shri S. C. Sa'manta (Tamluk): May I 'and then you may become eligibl" for know from the hon. Minister how many a job'. I think this is a preposterous M.D. doctors are at present rottin,!! in nO:1se!lsp that C3n be perpetrated, an CHS dispensaries on daily monotonous administrativ-e nonsense, a human non- work, and whether it is a fact that se!ls~,-.ll these kinds of things that when the CHS doctors serving in Delhi are the-e. Therefore, I wou'd say and its suburbs are transferred to that this aspect of the question has., other pla2es in the country, they re_ got to be looked into. I would also ceive less total emoluments than they lIay that this is a very important thing were drawing in Delhi? that has got to be set right. Shri A. K. Gopalan (Kasergod): May I know whether it is a fact that though Now, 1 want the Union Minister of the posts were advertised in NEFA ar;d Health also to do one thing. I know Himachal Pradesh with higher emolu- she has the love of the profession at ments, none came forward, and if so, heart. I know that very welL Of whether the CHS doctors are asked to course, I heve not had the good for- go there without any additional emulu- tune of consulting her as a lady doc- ments? tor, but I may have sometime to do sO and then I will be very har.py. I Shrl Umanath: With regard to the know she has the love of the profes- promotions. so far the rules have been sion at heart. Do I Shri S. M, Banerjee: I have asked 17 .45 hours. a specific question whether a commit- tee will be formed, consisting of the The Lok Sabha then adjourned till Director-General of Health Services Eleven of the Clock on Tuesday. and the representatives of the associa- September 6, 1966/Bhadra 15, 1888 tions to settle the problem so that (Saka). GMGIPN~-1641 (ai) LSD- 24-ll-~O.