La Trobe Asia – Asia Rising Human Rights Abuses in North Korea
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La Trobe Asia – Asia Rising Human Rights Abuses in North Korea Matt Smith Welcome to Asia Rising, the podcast from La Trobe Asia where we discuss the news, views and general happenings of Asian states and societies. I'm your host Matt Smith. The Democratic Republic of North Korea is a country where human rights are severely limited, press is censored, police of all kind are persecuted and the world is taking notice. In 2014 the UN Commission of Enquiry into Human Rights in North Korea published a report detailing human rights abuses committed by the countries leadership against its own people. They compared the scale of the abuse to the atrocities committed by the Nazi's. Here to discuss the response to the UN enquiry is Dr Danielle Chubb a lecturer in International Relations at Deacon University, thanks for joining me Danielle. Dr Danielle Chubb Thanks for having me Matt. Matt Smith So can you give me a bit of a perspective on the human rights issues in North Korea and is the comparison to the Nazi regime an accurate or fair one? Danielle Chubb To answer the second part of the question first, I think what you're referring to there is in 2014 when the report was released Michael Kirby who was the Chair of the Commission Enquiry, he made this comparison in the launch of the report. And from my perspective, without putting words in his mouth; the reason this is done - this comparison is made, is because this enquiry is tasked with bringing the attention of the world community to the human rights situation in North Korea. This is a powerful way of reminding the international community, that after the holocaust, that after the atrocities that occurred under Nazi Germany and its allies during WW2, the world said 'never again will we allow this to happen under our noses, never again will we knowingly allow people to perish in concentration camps and have their rights grossly violated' so I think that's the reason this comparison is made. I think other direct comparisons can be made but they're not necessarily very helpful, but that I think is a very powerful analogy. As for my perspective on human rights in North Korea, the Commission of Enquiry I think was very comprehensive and so it's probably worth at the top of this just going over what we are talking about. First the Enquiry found that there were systematic, widespread and gross human rights violations taking place inside North Korea and some of these violations they found did constitute crimes against humanity, and I won't go into this in great detail, it's all out there for people to look up if they're interested. The methodology of the Commission was very rigorous and very interesting I think, so they took this very seriously and while North Korea refused, after many efforts to engage with North Korea to take part in the enquiry. They decided this wasn't going to stop them and after decades of human rights activism, or so-called defector activism, that there was enough data out there, enough proof out there, enough evidence out there to make this a legally compelling case. And hours and hours and hours of private and public testimony from former North Koreans as well as activists and analysists was recorded and taken into consideration in the compilation of this report. The violations ranged from freedom of thought, expression, religion – where a huge propaganda system in North Korea requires absolute obedience to a supreme leader. Where the social activities of the North Koreans are dictated by the Worker's Party of Korea. There's no independent media, it's all State controlled. That there's a system of widespread discrimination, that basically North Koreans are categorised according to Songbun, this social classification from birth whereby this dictates where they are able to live, what kind of education they can have, the kinds of jobs and accommodations and opportunities that they're able to have during the alliance. That this also affected their livelihood especially during the famine where a shortage of food meant that those that were the least favoured by the government under this system were restricted from accessing food. There's no freedom of movement, people can't go where they want, they can't leave the country and the final two findings; and I think these are the most widely known were that: there is a system of concentration camps where arbitrary detention, executions and disappearances occur. There's Kwalliso which the North Korean regime denies their existence, even though we have clear satellite images that tell us they exist. And also the Commission Enquiry looked into the question of abductions, that a wide range of peoples from the Korean war but also just individuals from Japan and South Korea particularly, were abducted at various stages by the North Korean Government. So that's a very quick snapshot, but yes this is a really comprehensive report and it's a dire situation in North Korea. Matt Smith So the UN Commission Report delivered in 2014 has some fairly damming evidence, but there seems to be very little progress in the meantime, at lease diplomatically, so what's your assessment of that process? Danielle Chubb The Commission Enquiry Recommendation; I've already talked a little bit about the findings, the recommendations were also quite widespread and comprehensive. The flagship and most noticed and also I think the most promoted by the Commission Chairs was this idea of accountability, that North Korean leaders need to understand that their actions are being noticed by the international community and that they'll be held accountable and most particularly the report recommends referral by the UN Security Council to the International Criminal Court, or at the setup of an arbitrary process. Neither of these are likely to happen, but these are still what the international community is working towards. So while there hasn't been a lot of progress diplomatically on that front, there have been other developments in the UN process area, not to overstate it, but there have been slowly things happening. Most notably the setting up of a so-called field office which was mandated or required by the report, that its meant to continue its focus on accountability and data collection, that's been set up in Seoul, it's an extension of the Office of the High Commission of Human Rights from the United Nations and its mandate is to strengthen monitoring, documentation, to engage with civil society groups and other stakeholders and to maintain visibility of the human rights situation. So this is an effort to make sure that we don't lose momentum I guess on these fronts. And I think that while we haven't seen referrals to the International Criminal Court for a whole range of issues that are well beyond the remit of this particular commission, we have seen a lot of developments domestically in the United States and South Korea that’s all been enabled by this high level of attention that's been given to the human rights situation in North Korea. Matt Smith But it does rely a lot on; if there's going to be any significant progress, co-operation from North Korea, which doesn't really seem like it's going to be forthcoming at all. Danielle Chubb It also I think more importantly, requires co-operation from China and Russia. Matt Smith Yes sure. Danielle Chubb From the Security Council perspective. So North Korea's not a signatory, they have to be referred through the Security Council and China and Russia aren't likely to support any referral, in fact they're extremely unlikely and we know their position on human rights in the United Nations. Matt Smith So, the international effort to stop North Koreas nuclear tests, they've been unsuccessful and so what are your thoughts on this and do you think it's taking an international priority over the human rights violations? Danielle Chubb Of course. The international community's focus on North Korea has been, and will continue to be on the nuclear and ballistic missile program. Matt Smith Is it fairly safe because I feel like the human rights violations are being used as a tool to bring sanctions against North Korea that are more so aimed at trying to keep their nuclear capabilities in check? Danielle Chubb Yes, I think what we've seen happen, really over the past year or two or I think since the release of this report, is an increasing tendency; and this is unprecedented when it comes to North Korea, an increasing tendency to link human rights and nuclear weapons concerns. And I think this comes to the question of sanctions. We have two perspectives. First of all we have the perspective that sanctions on North Korea for human rights violations or for nuclear weapons won't work and that time has shown that we've had sanctions on North Korea since the 1990's, they haven't worked and they won't work. That's one school of thought. The other end of the spectrum, we have people, and a lot of these work within the human rights community in the United States say 'well the sanctions that have been recently bi-laterally imposed on North Korea by the United States by the North Korean Sanctions and Policy Enhancement Act of 2016 under the Obama Administration, these are unprecedented in their level of restriction on the level that they impose on North Korean individuals financial sanctions and that they haven't had a chance to work'.