Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

TUESDAY, 21 FEBRUARY 1967

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

QUEENSLAND

Parliamentary Debates (HANSARD)

FIRST SESSION OF THE THIRTY-EIGHTH PARLIAMENT (Second Period)

TUESDAY, 21 FEBRUARY, 1967 Gas Act Amendment Bill. Public Service Superannuation Acts Amend­ ment Bill. Under the provisions of the motion for Agricultural Chemicals Distribution special adjournment agreed to by the House Control Bill. on 7 December, 1966, the House met at 11 a.m. Local Government Acts Amendment Bill. City of Brisbane Acts Amendment Bill. Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. D. E. Nicholson, Murrumba) read prayers and took the chair. Marketable Securities Bill.

ASSENT TO BILLS QUEENSLAND MARINE ACTS AMENDMENT BILL Assent to the following Bills reported by Mr. Speaker- RESERVATION FOR ROYAL ASSENT Weights and Measures Acts Amendment Mr. SPEAKER reported receipt of a BilL message from His Excellency the Governor Fire Brigades Acts Amendment Bill. intimating that this Bill had been reserved Land Tax Acts Amendment Bill. for the signification of Her Majesty's pleasure. Stamp Acts and Another Act Amendment QUESTION Bill. PARKING OF VEHICLES IN CAIRNS Door to Door (Sales) Bill. Mr. R. Jones, pursuant to notice, asked The Primary Producers' Organisation and Minister for Mines,­ Marketing Acts Amendment Bill. In view of widespread concern and Regulation of Sugar Cane Prices Acts inconvenience caused by parallel parking in Amendment Bill. the wide streets of Cairns, will he provide Inspection of Machinery Acts and Another angle-parking and where angle-parking is Act Amendment Bill. not practicable have signs erected to denote the areas excepted from such Police (Photographs) Bill. parking? Audit Acts Amendment Bill. Answer:­ Medical Acts and Other Acts (Adminis­ tration) Bill. "The responsibility for erecting official traffic signs for parking within the City of Health Acts Amendment Bill. Cairns rests with the Council itself. The Medical Acts Amendment Bill. problem that has arisen is in connection Rabbit Acts Amendment Bill. with the practice of angle-parking in the 2-chain streets in Cairns, which is not in \Yorkers' Compensation Acts Amendment compliance with the Traffic Regulations. BilL Regulation 54 of these Regulations states, Harbours Acts Amendment Bill. inter alia, that parking must be by the 74 2250 Papers [ASSEMBLY] Papers

parallel method unless otherwise defined Orders in Council under- by official traffic signs. Officers of the The State Development and Public Works Department of Main Roads have discussed Organisation Acts, 1938 to 1964. the problem in detail with His Worship the The State Electricity Commission Acts, Mayor and representatives of the Council 1937 to 1965. and have advised that it is the Council's The Electric Light and Power Acts, intention to erect official traffic signs indi­ 1896 to 1965. cating angle-parking in areas where the The Northern Electric Authority of enforcement of parallel parking is likely Queensland Acts, 1963 to 1964. to cause inconvenience. I understand the Council has already erected such signs The Southern Electric Authority of within the central traffic area and near the Queensland Acts, 1952 to 1964. hospital. In order to assist the Council, The Co-ordination of Rural Advances the Department of Main Roads is and Agricultural Bank Acts, 1938 to supplying fifty angle-parking signs as a 1965. charge against the Traffic Engineering Trust The Racing and Betting Acts, 1954 to Fund." 1965. The Racing and Betting Acts, 1954 to 1966. MINISTERIAL STATEMENT The Workers' Compensation Acts, 1916 to 1966. DELEGATION OF AUTHORITY; MINISTER FOR The Grammar Schools Acts, 1860 to INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT 1962. The Libraries Acts, 1943 to 1949. Hon. G. F. R. NICKLIN (Landsborough­ The Supreme Court Act of 1921. Premier) (11.9 a.m.) : I desire to inform the The Offenders Probation and Parole Act House that, in connection with the visit over­ of 1959. seas of the Minister for Industrial Develop­ The Legal Practitioners Acts, 1961 to ment, His Excellency the Governor, in 1965. pursuance of the provisions of section 8 of The Queensland Law Society Acts, 1952 the Officials in Parliament Acts, 1896 to to 1963. 1965, has authorised and empowered the The Criminal Law Amendment Act of Honourable George Francis Reuben Nicklin, 1945. Premier and Minister for State Development, The District Courts Acts, 1958 to 1965. to perform and exercise all or any of the The Magistrates Courts Acts, 1921 to duties, powers and authorities imposed or 1964. conferred upon the Minister for Industrial The Explosives Acts, 1952 to 1963. Development by any Act, rule, practice or The Health Acts, 1937 to 1966. ordinance, on and from 13 February, 1967, The Medical Acts, 1939 to 1966. and until the return to Queensland of the The Apprenticeship Act of 1964. Honourable Alexander Tattenhall Dewar. The Factories and Shops Acts, 1960 to 1964. I lay upon the table of the House a copy The Fish Supply Management Act of of the "Queensland Government Gazette 1965. Extraordinary" of 13 February, 1967, notify­ The Profiteering Prevention Acts, 1948 ing these arrangements. to 1959. Whereupon the hon. gentleman laid the The Mines Regulation Act of 1964. "Queensland Government Gazette Extra­ The Gas Act of 1965. ordinary" upon the table. The Mines Regulation Acts, 1910 to 1958. The Gas Acts, 1965 to 1966. PAPERS Regulations under- The following paper was laid on the table, The Harbours Acts, 1955 to 1964. and ordered to be printed:­ The Motor Vehicles Insurance Acts, 1936 Report of the Government Gas Engineer to 1963. and Chief Gas Examiner for the year The Racing and Betting Acts, 1954 to 1965-66. 1966. The Stamp Acts, 1894 to 1966. The following papers were laid on the The Workers' Compensation Acts, 1916 table:­ to 1966. Proclamations under- The Aborigines' and Torres Strait The Public Works Land Resumption Islanders' Affairs Act of 1965. Acts, 1906 to 1955 and The State The Education Act of 1964. Development and Public Works The Auctioneers, Real Estate Agents, Organisation Acts, 1938 to 1964. Debt Collectors and Motor Dealers The Stamp Acts, 1894 to 1966. Acts, 1922 to 1961. The Door to Door (Sales) Act of 1966. The Door to Door (Sales) Act of 1966. The Liquor Acts, 1912 to 1965. The Fire Brigades Acts, 1964 to 1965. The Hospitals Acts, 1936 to 1964. The Mining Acts, 1898 to 1965. The Health Acts, 1937 to 1964. The Miners' Homestead Leases Acts, The Nurses Act of 1964. 1913 to 1965. The Apprenticeship Act of 1964. Motion for Adjournment (21 FEBRUARY] Motion for Adjournment 2251

The Statistical Returns Acts, 1896 to Table No. 33, which tables figures under 1935. Motor Vehicle Insurance for 1964/65 in terms of- The Traffic Acts, 1949 to 1965. Compulsory Other Third Party The Petroleum Acts, 1923 to 1962. $ $ Premiums 74,974,000 151,478,000 Claims 70,559,000 113,356,000 The Miners' Homestead Leases Acts, --- 1913 to 1965. Excess $4,415,000 $38,122,000 The State Transport Acts, 1960 to 1965. Similar substantial excesses are also shown for the previous four years. Statute under the University of Queensland Act of 1965. (d) a speculative intrusion into the democratic rights of the individual By-laws under- based on the remarks of the Insurance The Optometrists Acts, 1917 to 1965. Commissioner, who has publicly The Railways Acts, 1914 to 1965­ admitted on 25th January, 1967,. that Nos. 961 and 962. the scheme has imperfections, but 'is worthy of a trial.' FORM OF QUESTION (e) immature in concept so soon after Mr. HUGHES (Kurilpa) having given the September, 1966, premium increase notice of a question-- as to not allow the effects of such 25 per cent. increase to be statistically Mr. SPEAKER: Order! Portion of the interpreted over a period of time in han. member's question appears to seek an relation to claims, and therefore is expression of opinion. I will have a look at against the public interest; it later. (f) a form of private sectional taxa­ tion which is benefiting one section of MOrfiON FOR ADJOURNMENT the business community which tradi­ tionally has espoused the concept that CoMPREHENSIVE MoToR VEHICLE any form of insurance is one of a con­ INSURANCE tract of personal good faith between the insurer and the company concerned; Mr. SPEAKER: I have to inform the House that I have received the following (g) a form of dictatorship not in keep­ letter from the Leader of the Opposition:­ ing with the principles of democracy, and, masquerading as the scheme does "21st February, 1967. under the heading of 'The Safety "The Honourable D. E. Nicholson, M.L.A., Record Plan,' amounts to 'deceptive "Speaker, packaging'; "Legislative Assembly, (h) not supported by official cam­ "Parliament House, paigns such that might extend education "Brisbane. and enforcement of snch traffic pro­ "Dear Mr. Speaker, cedures as the right-hand rule, with "I beg to inform you that, in accordance consequent benefit to road safety; with Standing Order 137, I intend this (i) creating a public risk because of day, Tuesday, 21st February, 1967, to having the same premium for cars of move­ over $2,000 difference in value in that 'That the House do now adjourn.' many more car drivers will not carry "My reason for moving this motion is any insurance, other than compulsory to give the House an opportunity of dis­ third party, therefore not indemnifying cussing a definite matter of urgent public themselves against damage to others' importance, namely, the introduction of property or vehicles; the new comprehensive motor vehicle (j) creating confusion in the public insurance scheme from February 1st, mind arising out of so many apparent 1967. different methods of car insurance. ''This insurance scheme is­ "Yours faithfully, (a) a radical departure from estab­ "J. W. HOUSTON." lished insurance practice in Queensland and is not in the public interest; I consider this matter to be one of urgent (b) a restrictive trade practice arising public importance and I therefore propose to out of the arbitrary fixing of the market accept the motion. value sum insured, and the fixed scale Not fewer than five members having risen of premium rating; in their places in support of the motion- (c) not supported by the Common­ wealth Bureau of Census and Statistics Mr. HOUSTON (Bulimba-Leader of the Insurance and Other Private Finance Opposition) (11.49 a.m.): I move­ Bulletin No. 3, 1964/65, Page 39, "That the House do now adjourn." 2252 Motion for Adjournment [ASSEMBLY] Motion for Adjournment

On behalf of the Opposition I thank you, Another factor on which the Opposition Mr. Speaker, for the opportunity to have would like some information is the efficiency this matter debated. I believe it is of public of the companies concerned. It seems strange importance that we should give the Govern­ that in articles written by competent journal­ ment an opportunity to speak on behalf of ists they were not able to say what overhead the Insurance Commissioner, who, after all, charges were allowed in assessing a fair is the public servant who investigated the return on premium capital. Those are the scheme as proposed by certain sections of things that we believe the public is entitled the insurance interests. In his view the to know. information presented to him was substanti­ When the decision to allow the imple­ ally accurate, and he must have believed it mentation of the new insurance scheme was to be in the interests of the people. To first made known by the Insurance Commis­ date there has been no clear report from sioner, it was felt in many quarters that it anyone in authority, particularly from the was going to be taken quietly. It was Government, on the various matters that suggested by one writer in Queensland that brought about this decision. this is the only State to kick up any fuss about it. My view is that the other States can During the last six months the motorist has look after themselves. So far as I am con­ certainly been asked to pay many charges in cerned, we are entitled to look after Queens­ excess of those that he paid previously. Of land. course, most of those increases were the result of increased taxation, which was More conflicting reports appeared as time went on. It was suggested that the new debated in Parliament. I do not think anyone scheme had been introduced purely and could argue against the manner in which that simply to compensate the careful driver. It was done, and, as this is a democracy and was suggested that, because of the new we are a democratic Opposition, we accept attitude being adopted by certain insurance the decisions of Parliament. We therefore companies, those who came into the scheme have no quarrel with the way in which those and were careful drivers and avoided increases were imposed. Parliament has not, accidents would receive a high financial however, debated insurance charges, so natur­ bonus, whereas those who were dangerous ally we thank Mr. Speaker for the oppor­ drivers would find themselves in a very tunity afforded us today. I trust that from different position. this debate will come a clear understanding of what the various charges are to be, how There is much evidence to show that the they are to apply, and the justification for old scheme had many weaknesses, and I and them. Although the opportunity is limited, other members of the Opposition have sug­ the Opposition is ever ready to hear what gested on many occasions that those weak­ the Government has to say on the matter. nesses should be corrected. We objected, for example, to the assessing of higher insurance In the first place, I should like an explana­ premiums on vehicles bought under hire tion of the factors that influenced the Insur­ purchase than for vehicles bought on a cash ance Commissioner to give the scheme his basis. We argued also against some of support. I should like to hear from the the excessive charges imposed on younger Premier, or other Ministers, the reasons for drivers, and the former Treasurer, Sir Thomas accepting this scheme and the scale of charges Hiley, indicated that he considered the brought down. I should like to make it clear loading very unjust. However, those weak­ that the Opposition has no quarrel with any nesses could have been overcome by company receiving a just return for its amending the old scheme; there was no efforts or outlay. We have no fight with an need to introduce a completely new con­ insurance company that lays down premiums cept of comprehensive insurance to over­ that are just, so that motorists, or any other come them. sections of the community, do not feel that If one looks at the previous scheme, one they are being fleeced. We are, however sees that most companies did give a sub­ against the use of insurance premiums t~ stantial bonus to a motorist who was claim­ overcome other deficiencies in an industry. free, and I emphasise the great difference For the sake of argument, I hope that the between an accident-free motorist and a Government can tell us what action the insur­ claim-free motorist. In all the propaganda ance companies have taken to deal with the surrounding the introduction of this new repair bills submitted by some garages and scheme the emphasis has been on the accident­ workshops. From time to time there has free and careful driver; but that does not appeared in the Press and in other places really apply. An accident-free driver could evidence of marked differences in charges take every precaution to avoid an accident, and quotations for repairing vehicles. If but he could park his car outside his own repair charges were allowed to get com­ home and find that it had been sideswiped pletely out of hand, naturally the claims or stolen or that various parts had been ratio would be so high that insurance com­ stolen from it. Having taken all normal panies would ask for increased premiums. precautions, he could still find that his car The answer in that case may be a thorough was damaged and would then lose his no­ investigation into charges for repairs to claim bonus, which is really what it is. So ensure that by keeping them down premiums I ask hon. members not to allow themselves do not become too high. to be deluded by the propaganda that the Motion for Adjournment (21 FEBRUARY] Motion for Adjournment 2253 scheme has been introduced purely and simply margin is to allow them to build up a for the benefit of the careful driver. It has reserve fund in case of a large-scale been introduced to enable the various insur­ catastrophe. The report alleged that the ance companies to balance their books. Premier mentioned the Townsville sugar­ The basic rate as published is not really terminal fire. I believe that the motorist the basic rate. A figure of $39 has been should not be a5ked to build up such a mentioned frequently, and it is the rate for reserve against the possibility of a national a driver who has not had a claim for three calamity; that is something that has to be or more years. Therefore, those who have handled on an entirely different basis than had a claim have to pay a substantially higher through comprehensive motor vehicle insur­ premium. I think it is abundantly clear ance. I trust that that report was not that what the insurance companies have entirely accurate, because I believe there is endeavoured to do is try to strike an average no comparison whatever between the two of the value of cars so that a premium could sets of circumstances. be decided upon that would give them the Another factor that concerns the least possible variation in types of claims and Opposition was mentioned by the Insurance types of premiums. This has resulted in one Commissioner himself when he said that he of the things that the Opposition is most feared that if insurance premiums were concerned about-the lumping together of raised too high quite a few motorists would brand-new cars of high power and modern not insure comprehensively. That is a design and with many pieces of fancy steel matter that particularly worries the work in them and earlier models of lower Opposition. If a motorist has no insurance quality. Cars that are expensive to buy cover and is responsible for an accident the and that can be driven at 80 or 90 miles person whose car or property is damaged an hour have exactly the same premium will have no redress unless the person rating as smaller, cheaper cars that are now responsible is a man of some substance. The six years old. I hope that the Government mere fact that he cannot afford the $70 or can give hon. members a logical reason $80 premium applicable under this scheme why insurance companies should lump would indicate that he is likely to be a man together cars of greatly differing values. of poor substance. Therefore, the person Just to put some values on paper, I point whose car or property is damaged will either out that in the handbook called the "Red have to incur heavy legal expenditure to Book", which is used as a guide to used-car prove his claim or carry the whole burden prices, both the 1967 Falcon and the 1967 himself. It is the fact that heavy insurance Holden are shown as being worth over $2,000 charges force ·people to take a risk and not new. The additional amount is for various insure that, I feel, is one of the greatest extras. A 1961 Holden or Ford is down weaknesses in the scheme. in value to as low as $560. Where is I could give further examples but I think the justice in asking a person who can afford the companies themselves have shown exactly a brand-new car every year to pay only how confused the situation is at present. the same premium as the man who buys a Originally it was suggested that all com­ four-year-old car and has to keep it for panies would fall into line with the scheme some years? approved by the Insurance Commissioner, Further examples taken from the Red but within a few weeks of the original Book show that the 1961 Hillman is valued announcement certain companies were at $520 and the 1963 Hillman at only $670; advertising that they would be still handling the 1962 Morris Major is valued at $730. motor vehicle insurance in the old method Those are all popular makes of cars and and at the old rate. Even the State Govern­ they all show the same trend. ment Insurance Office has been advertising a further reduction in premiums in certain It may be said, of course, that the insur­ circumstances. That office, being a Govern­ ance companies are operating at a loss. In ment instrumentality, is not likely to offer the notice given to Mr. Speaker I quoted a premium rate that would cause it to lose the 1964-65 statistics as an example. Later on the insurance undertaken, which further figures are not available-the Treasurer may points to the fact that companies offering have them; I hope he has-but the pattern less advantageous conditions must be making over the four years prior to 1964-65 shows substantial profits. a consistent trend which one might assume still exists unless there has been some sub­ (Time expired.) stantial alteration in the position. I instanced a premium income of $151,000,000, which Mr. HANLON (Baroona) (12.5 p.m.): I exceeded claims by more than $38,000,000. second the motion. As you have indicated, Surely that does not indicate that these Mr. Speaker, it is obvious that this is a companies have been operating compre­ matter of public importance. I support my Leader's motion for the adjourn­ hensive insurance at a loss. ment of the House. It has been said I want particularly to refer to something both by the Insurance Commissioner and by that the Premier is reported as having said. the various insurance companies concerned I am not asserting that he did say it, but the that the new insurance scheme is a radical report suggested that one of the reasons why departure from past practice in comprehensive the companies must have a substantial insurance for motor vehicles. It is clear that 2254 Motion for Adjournment [ASSEMBLY] Motion for Adjournmenr this radical departure has not been generally endeavouring to rea·ch a new 'formu1a is the accepted by the motoring public. To a great 'fact that an increasing number of motor­ extent I think we can rightly lay the blame vehicle owners have been insuring for rela­ at the feet of the Government because it has tively small amounns because of their recog­ taken the matter much more casually than nition of this point. If that point is valid it should. Possibly the insurance companies today and is one of the mal!ters of dispute in have been led into similar carelessness in the public mind, and if t'he fixing or paying getting this new scheme across to the public ·Of premiums according to the selection of by the comparatively easy acquiescence of the a tapital value or market value of the car Government to their suggested changes. in a person's mind is of no •relevance, or of H might be said that as the Insurance very little relevance-the ,figure of 1 per Commissioner-a public officer whom we all cent. 'has been referred to-in the premiums respect-has given this matter his considera­ paid out, I think the Insurance Commissioner tion, and has stated that it is worth a trial, we should have realised rthis long ago and not should be prepared to leave it at that. But when ~he insurance companies came to him I suggest that there is another way of looking with fheir new formula, which recognises it. at it. We have to consider the trust that we If we considered we could safely leave this can place in the judgment of the Insurance maHer to the Insurance Commissioner, on his Commissioner, without in any way questioning previous record in this regard we accept ~his his integrity in his approach to the matter, basis as being somewhat in 'conflict with hi·s and the trust we can place in the judgment approval of the old scheme. In other words, of the insurance companies themselves, again for years people have 'been insuring their without questioning their ethics or integrity vehicles on a ·basis that the insurance com­ in endeavouring to formulate a new scheme. panies tell us had very little relevance to the cost of their policies. I suggest tha:t some­ I turn again to the attitude of the Govern­ thing should 'have been done about this some ment. If anybody has pointed the finger at the time ago if it is relevant to the new formula integrity of the insurance companies it is this approved by the Insurance Commissioner. Government by its actions in recent weeks. I am not going to move on to any other subject I think it is fair that we should look at the other than to draw an analogy. The Govern­ benetfits submhted by the companies to vhe ment has seen fit to lift the long-existing 1Insurance Commissioner as applying under price control on petrels and oils, apparently this new plan compared with those under the considering that there is no need for any previous scheme. One of them is that public, official or Government surveillance of vehicles under hire purchase are now eligible the prices of these commodities. On the other for no-claim dis'counts, for which they were hand the Government has retained its control not previously eligible. That could be over insurance companies through the existing governed by the fact that hire-purchase provisions of the Insurance Act. We believe agreements for motor vehicle purchases may that power should be retained under the have been -gradually tapering off, being Insurance Act, but surely the Government's replaced by personal loans or something of actions indicate that it has a higher regard that nature. lf it was valid till 1 February for the integrity of the international oil ,for the insurance companies to approve of combine. which largely controls the price of the penalty that was formerly imposed on petrol and oils, than it has for the insurance people simply because they were engaged in companies. Personally, I have a higher regard motor vehicle hire-purchase transactions, I for the integrity and ethics of the insurance cannot see that t'he position h:l!s 'changed companies than I have for the international magically overnight under the new foTmula. oil combine. This attitude of the Government It suggests thM these people were unfairly is one reason why we have to look with some penalised under the old scheme, yet the doubt at the new formula submitted by a formula was approved by the Insurance Com­ number of the insurance companies. missioner 'for a number of years when people In accepting his responsibility towards the were penalised because they were buying new proposal the Insurance Commissioner, in vehicles under hire pur·chase. The view was an article that appeared in "The Courier-Mail" apparently considered valid that these people -one that could have been written a little Tepresented a considerably hig'her risk than earlier to inform the public more about the average motorist or the one who owned matters that have been clouded to a great his own vehicle and did not have h encum­ degree-referred to the vexed question of the bered in any way under hire purchase. This, so-called market values of motor vehicles as again, is a reason for a much closer examina­ the amounts to be insured for rather than the tion of the who'le position. previous procedure of the owner selecting his !It is for these purposes that fhe complaints own value when taking out comprehensive voi•ced to the Leader o'f the Opposition about insurance. He said­ this matter have been formulated in the "But, surprising though it may appear at motion for adjournment. ·Further, as the first sight, it showed that the magnitude of Leader of the Opposition pointed out in sup­ the sum insured selected by the owner is port of his motion, rhis radical de.parture, not of great relevance in the calculation a:fter approval by the Insurance Com­ of equitable premiums." missioner only last September of a 25 per Members of the public have been well aware cent. increase in premiums, seems to be of this for some considerable time. One of almost in t.he nature of an about-fa:oe. Pro­ the reasons for cbhe insurance companies' bably the insurance companie·s would say Motion for Adjournment [21 FEBRUARY] Motion for Adjournment 2255

that the Insurance Commissioner should have therefore to consider not only the increased given his approval before he did. If this premiums, but also the decreased responsi­ new plan was pending, why was it necessary bility that is being accepted by the companies. for .such a substantial increase in premiums to be approve.d last September, almost on the Mr. Chalk: Was that the figure after the verge of th1s completely new plan for motor 25 per cent. increase in September? vehicle comprehensive insurance being sub­ Mr. SHERRINGTON: Yes. Let us not be mitted to the Insurance Commissioner? I fooled by this "after the 25 per cent. increase should say that this might have been in September". The plain fact is that I am expedited with a view to telling vhe public paying $6 more for $200 less insurance. that they could be paying substantially more rfor comprehensive insurance, irrespective of The other case concerns a 1962 special the new safety record plan, as it has been sedan. The premium is $50 to cover the car somewhat loosely described. for its market value. In the Red Book it has (fime expired). an indefinite market value, between $780 and $970. If such a car was traded in there Mr. SHERRINGTON (Salisbury) (12.14 would be more chance of getting $780 than p.m.): I wholeheartedly support the motion. of getting $970. Therefore the owner of such I preface my remarks by again calling for a vehicle pays $9 less than I do for approxi­ the ap.pointment of a select all-party com­ mately half the cover I get. Yet there is this mittee to investigate all ramifications of claim by the insurance companies that this motor vehicle insurance Which was, by the new scheme will not increase their income. way, the subje'ct of a notice of motion which I moved on the first day of fhe Efe o'f this Let us now deal with this question of "shopping round". When the Insurance Com­ Parliament approxi'mately in August la~t. missioner made the determination to agree to There is no doubt that at present there is this scheme, one would think that he would widespread dissatisfaction among all sections have been fully aware of all the insurance of the community concerning motor vehicle propositions offered by other insurance com­ insurance. There have been claims by panies in Queensland. If that is so, why motorists that this new scheme will react is it not possible for the Insurance Com­ unfavourably against them and stout denials missioner to collate the data on the policies by the insurance companies that this will offered by all insurance companies and make return them additional income. The only way that information available to motorists, the matter can be resolved satisfactorily is by instead of advising them to "shop round"? setting up a select all-party committee clothed with the necessary power to subpoena. If I regret that I have only 10 minutes in motor vehicle insurance is so unprofitable, which to speak, as this means that I must surely the insurance companies would restrict many of the remarks that I want welcome a complete and full inquiry into the to make. Advice is given to "shop round" matter. for cheaper insurance. When a person In recent editions of "The Courier-Mail" does obtain cheaper insurance, he may find there appeared two articles written by Mr. that after he has submitted two quotations John Atherton. He prefaced the first article, for repair work when making a claim, the on 8 February, by saying­ insurance company insists on obtaining a 'The motoring public is irate, up-in­ further quotation of its own. This is what arms, fairly well convinced it is the victim is done by some insurance companies in this of a confidence trick-and not a little city. If the third quotation is less than confused. those submitted by the claimant, he is advised that if he wishes to use the services of the "The insurance companies are almost panel beater or mechanic whose quotation hoarse protesting their innocence and he submitted he must pay the difference urbanely insisting that they are just a between that quotation and the one obtained bunch of sadly misunderstood, well­ by the insurance company. There is no intentioned, all-round good chaps." reason to doubt that these companies obtain The claim that motor vehicle insurance is the services of a lot of bodgie panel beaters. unprofitable rings a little hollow when it is so that those with policies with them would considered that the bulk of real-estate invest­ be obtaining cheap insurance for inferior ment in the inner-city area of Brisbane is work. Not only premiums but the whole being made by insurance companies. Motor ramifications of insurance in this State should vehicle insurance cannot be as unprofitable be the subject of an investigation by a select as they try to make out. all-party committee. I shall quote two cases to support our No longer can a motorist insure for the claim that the insurance companies will amount that he chooses; he must pay the benefit greatly from the new system. The first premium as laid down in the classifications. case relates to my own motor vehicle, a 1965 The article by Mr. Atherton states that 95 Holden. Last year it was insured for $1,800, per cent. of motor vehicle insurance claims on which I paid $53.10 premium. This year are for less than $400. That means in my premium has been increased to $59.23 effect that premiums are being paid on and I have $200 less cover; in other words, specified amounts whilst there is a 95 per I am paying $6 more for $200 less cover if a cent. chance that any claims lodged will claim was made for total loss. We have be for less than $400. 2256 Motion for Adjournment [ASSEMBLY] Motion for Adjournment

Mr. Smith: Supposing it is burnt? the Insurance Commissioner and the repre­ sentative of the insurers. What has been Mr. SHERRINGTON: "Supposing it is done in this case has been to follow exactly burnt?" the hon. member for Windsor says. the practices followed over the years, both As I have already pointed out, only 5 per when Labour was in government and since cent. of claims are for write-offs. If 95 the Country-Liberal Government has been per cent. of claims are for less than $400, in office. why cannot a motorist insure for $400 and pay what he feels he can reasonably afford? The hon. member for Baroona, as I said, That privilege has now been denied to him. referred to the Insurance Commissioner. Who is Mr. Rutherford? He is well known to most Let us now look at the matter of excess members of this Assembly. He is a Fellow penalties. In the case that I quoted, a person of the Institute of Actuaries of London, under 25 would have to pay $50 in insur­ he is a senior member of his profession, ance premium. If he is involved in an and he has long experience in insurance accident through no fault of his own, the matters. I do not think that any hon. insurance company couldn't care less about member would be prepared to question his it. They would say, "After all, you have to qualifications or to suggest that Mr. Ruther­ pay the first $50," or whatever the excess ford has reached his decision without giving might be. careful and thoughtful consideration to all (Time expired.) the facts and circumstances. Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer­ Having said that, I make it very clear Treasurer) (12.24 p.m.): I have two regrets that the right of Parliament, of individual this morning. The first is that my time in members of Parliament, and, indeed, of the reply is limited; the second is that perhaps public generally, to criticise this or any other my health is not quite as good as it might be. insurance scheme is basic and undoubted. However, criticism that seems to suggest that I have listened to the three speakers on the new scheme has not been investigated the Opposition side in the debate on this properly, that the interests of motorists have adjournment motion. On the one hand, the been neglected, or that the Government is Leader of the Opposition indicated that he in some way to blame, is quite unwarranted. has not a clear appreciation of the values I have enough confidence in the Insurance attaching to the new scheme. On the other Commissioner to say to the House that the hand, I believe that he has not a full scheme was investigated very carefully. I appreciation of the difficulties that insurance have no doubt that, as in all matters of this companies faced under the old scheme. nature, there can be bona fide differences of opinion as to the merits and demerits of In his approach to this matter the hon. particular aspects of a scheme. But the member for Baroona first patted the Insur­ Insurance Commissioner has stated publicly ance Commissioner on the back and then, that the new scheme could have some on three occasions, gave him a swift kick anomalies, and the Government does not deny in the pants. The hon. member for Salisbury that. However, one thing is certain-! say first spoke of there being some basis for this to the House very forcibly today, the appointment of a select committee of and probably no hon. member would deny inquiry; he then criticised the scheme, but it-that the new scheme is more equitable he did not put forward any constructive than the old one and is worthy of a full trial. suggestions as to what might be done for the protection of motorists in Queensland. There is one other point that I should Let us examine the present position. The emphasise at this stage. The scheme is legal position must first be clearly understood. based on Australia-wide research and Responsibility for the approval of the scheme statistics, and the principles of the scheme is not something new. Under the Insurance are being commonly applied in all States. Act, it is a matter for the Insurance Commis­ Why there should be so much criticism in sioner and the representative of the insurers. Queensland of the new principles and, appar­ If the two disagree, then it is a matter for ently, very little criticism in other States the Governor in Council to refer the matters is something that I cannot quite follow. in disagreement to an independent actuary. However, I do suspect that at least some I emphasise to bon. members that this has of the criticism in Queensland is founded been the law of the land since 1916. It was on misapprehension as to the true nature of introduced by a Labour Government and the new scheme. Since I returned from retained by the Country-Liberal Government overseas I have made it my business to when it brought down a Bill to amend the ascertain the position in each State, and Insurance Act in 1960. this is the only State where there is any howling about the scheme. Mr. Walsh: It is still pretty sound. In evaluating the new scheme we have no Mr. CHALK: I know it is sound. There better comparison point than the old scheme. is no question of referring the matter to What can we say about the old scheme? What Cabinet, to the Governor in Council, or were its weaknesses? What were the things to Parliament. The pattern has been laid that required alteration? I have tried to assess down through the law, and the law places the matter. The first weakness was very a difficult responsibility on the shoulders of obvious to all. The old scheme did not Motion for Adjournment [21 FEBRUARY] Motion for Adjournment 2257 sufficiently penalise the bad driver and there­ on the old scheme could not have produced fore had the very undesirable feature that an acceptable structure. These weaknesses good drivers were unduly subsidising bad were too basic to the very foundations of the drivers. But this was not the only weakness. old scheme, so the insurance industry did What of the driver who was buying his some very complete research on an Australia­ vehicle under hire purchase? We have heard wide basis and very detailed statistics were something on this point from Opposition supplied to the Insurance Commissioner. The members this morning but they did not industry came up with a new scheme and the suggest how it might be altered. Whilst a Insurance Commissioner approved that vehicle was under hire purchase the owner scheme with certain modification. He did his could not earn the no-claim bonuses and it job, accepted his responsibility and approved was quite obvious that the careful driver, with a scheme which he believed on the informa­ his vehicle under hire purchase, was unduly tion before him and with the knowledge that subsidising the careless driver. One would he has acquired through his years of training, expect a person with a vehicle under hire would be of benefit to the people of this purchase to be a particularly careful driver great State generally. because, nine times out of 10, he is a worker, As I say, the industry finally came up with whom the Opposition is supposed to protect. a new scheme which the Insurance Commis­ This Government has a soft spot in its sioner approved with certain modifications, heart for the driver with a vehicle under hire principally in the direction of higher purchase. As I say, many of these people discounts for aged vehicles. are working men acquiring their own motor There is one point that the Opposition vehicles under hire-purchase agreements. must face up to. It is obvious that if Surely the Opposition does not suggest that the old scheme had been continued many this class of driver should pay unduly high careful motorists would have had to pay premiums to compensate for the less careful an undue share of the over-all costs of com­ class of driver. It is obvious that under the prehensive insurance. Many working old scheme, premiums were too high for new people with vehicles under hire purchase vehicles and too low for older vehicles. The would have had to pay more. Australia-wide survey that was made immedi­ The fact is, of course, that under this ately before the new scheme was formulated scheme a number of very careful drivers clearly showed that the average cost of will pay less than they would have had to repairs was about the same for both old and pay under the old scheme. If the Oppo­ new vehicles of the same make. Obviously, sition 'applauds this principle-! believe it then, on this experience, some close co-rela­ should-! should like to know the class tion of premium rating between new and of motorist on which it would have hung older vehicles was necessary and desirable. the extra cost when it so relieved the care­ I have made very clear my concern for the ful driver. The Opposition has squealed effect of the old scheme on the under-25-year­ about the new scheme but it has not told old group. During my term as Treasurer I us on whom it would hang the extra cost have often drawn attention to the unfair that has to be met. position which arose when a vehicle driven by I believe that the new scheme can over­ someone under 25 years of age was damaged come the main points of criticism of the old while legally parked or when a windscreen scheme. Experience could well show was broken by a stone being thrown up by a that the new scheme contains anomalies passing vehicle. Surely the Opposition agrees -I do not deny this-but they can that there is a case for some relief to drivers be corrected. It is a better scheme in this class. This insurance scheme gives that than the old scheme, and is worthy of a full relief. Again, in the old rating structure there trial. I know this is the attitude that the was no discrimination between various makes Insurance Commissioner takes, and he of vehicles. There was the same premium advises me that arrangements have been basis for all makes of cars despite, for made for detailed s(latistical investigation example, the marked differences in the cost of the experience under the new scheme. of windscreen replacements and other repairs The House oan rest assured that, if modifi­ as between one car and another. cations become necessary, the Insurance Lastly, a particularly unfortunate result of Commissioner will require them to be made. the old scheme was that a single accident led One possible point of confusion in this to the complete loss of maximum no-claim matter, particularly as to the level of bonuses which could have been built up by premium payable, is that mcwrists may be careful driving over a number of years. comparing March 1967 premiums with I believe that the House would accept March 1966 premiums, whereas there was a without question that the main weaknesses of 25 per cent. increase under the old scheme the old scheme, which I have outlined, called in September last. for some drastic re-thinking on the part of I have not burdened the House with a the insurance industry. We have it from the mass of figures, nor have I attempted to Opposition this morning that something draw specific numerical comparisons should have been done with the old scheme. between premiums under the old scheme I think they said sufficient to indicate that the and those under the new scheme. However, old scheme has failed. It must be obvious the ~nsurance Commissioner has drawn up a from the criticism that a patch here and there detailed statement which I believe it would 2258 Motion for Adjournment [ASSEMBLY] Motion for Adjournment be well for hon. members to study. I there­ I have no doubt that before the companies fore propose to lay on the table of the House came up with their recommendations to put a copy of the statement provided for me by before the Insurance Commissioner, the the Insurance Commissioner. I want to various aspects of the matter were canvassed. emphasise that the premium rates set out in I believe that if we can devise a scheme that the statement are the maximum rates. If benefits the careful, claim-free driver we someone shops around and does better, have achieved a desirable end. It was all surely the Opposition does not deny him very well in days gone by to insure a car for that right. its full market value, but a person would not Surely the scheme put forward is an get that value even if he lost the car, so he improvement on the old one and, after all, was over-insuring it. isn't that what is desired by the motoring Mr. Bennett: Why did the companies public in this State? I have looked at the take the premiums? scheme very carefully and I have discussed it with the Insurance Commissioner. I &ay Mr. SMITH: The hon. member recently to the people of Queensland that I believe had a house fire. He should understand this scheme, given 'a fair trial, will prove to that a person who has his house insured have decided advantages compared with against damage by fire would be very lucky the old scheme. to be paid the full amount for which it was insured. (Whereupon the hon. gentleman laid the statement on the table.) Mr. Bennett interjected. Mr. SMITH (Windsor) (12.39 p.m.): This Mr. SMITH: I suppose the hon. member morning we have had the spectacle of hon. ran hot and the house caught fire. members opposite, like schoolboys, crying An Opposition Member: Did he tell you before they are hurt. he cut the fire hose? Opposition Members interjected. Mr. SPEAKER: Order! Hon. members Mr. SMITH: It is regrettable that the on my left have had a very attentive hearing Treasurer has to be burdened with this sort from hon. members on my right. I ask them of rubbish when he is not particularly well. to return the courtesy. I will deal with any In considering this matter I think it hon. member who makes objectionable behoves hon. members opposite to realise remarks. that not only insurance premiums but costs Mr. SMITH: Let us draw an analogy in every facet of life have risen. The parlia­ with life insurance in this regard. A person mentary salaries they are drawing today as who seeks to insure his life-- they are sitting in the same seats are higher than they were three years ago; and they Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I trust the hon. were higher then than they were six years member will not develop his argument along before that. When wages and costs are the lines of life insurance or fire insurance. going up in other sectors we cannot expect We are dealing with the comprehensive insurance companies not to increase charges insurance of motor vehicles. in their field. We have to be consistent; we have to be reasonable. Mr. SMITH: I said, "Let us draw an Mr. Houston: You agree that they have analogy with life insurance." increased their charges? Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I find it most Mr. SMITH: They have gone up, but not difficult to hear the hon. member. out of reason. All costs have gone up. Mr. SMITH: If Mr. Speaker would keep The cost of meat has gone up; the cost of the House silent he might hear me. services has gone up-- Mr. Aikens: Solicitors' charges. Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The hon. member will withdraw that remark and Mr. SMITH: Indeed, and not before apologise. time-in Jiact, well behind time! Mr. SMITH: I withdraw the remark and A careful investigation of the details of apologise. I submit that I am speaking up. the new scheme has no doubt been made by many people. For a start, the actuaries When the premium is assessed for any would have made an examination of the policy, whether for life or accident, there proposal. Investigations would have been must be a basis. To continue with the made by the insurance companies, and last, analogy, for life insurance there must be but not least, by the Insurance Commis­ actuarial details as a basis. That is not sioner himself. I have not had the oppor­ irrelevant; it is quite to the point. When a tunity to make such an investigation, nor person approaches a company for insurance do I feel capable of making it-nor do I feel he asks for a policy, and a premium attaches this House would be capable of doing it. to it. The premium to be paid is based on Details would be supplied which many hon. certain factors. If hon. members study life members would not understand in the slight­ insurance they will know what those factors est degree rand we would waste the time of are. That is what I am trying to say in the House in pursuing futile investigations. relation to motor vehicle accident insurance; Motion for Adjournment [21 FEBRUARY] Motion for Adjournment 2259 the accident rate is considered. That is the Mr. Walsh: What about the fellow who analogy, and hope it is apparent to overcharges? everyone. Mr. SMITH: There will always be over­ Mr. Melloy: You do not know what the charging in some fields. policy is worth. Let us get back to the Insurance Com­ Mr. SMITH: I am talking about the basis missioner's approving this scheme. At about on which the insurance is given. the same time, compulsory third-party In life insurance, if a person has a history insurance schedules were reviewed by the of epilepsy, or any other disease, he has to same Insurance Commissioner. But we did pay a policy rating higher than one who not hear any squeal about that, because has an Al bill of health. he apparently gratified the desires of the Opposition. Mr. Bennett: That is a pretty callous policy. Mr. Honston: You can't read. Mr. SMITH: It is not a pretty callous Mr. SMITH: If there has been any growl policy. It is what motor vehicle insurance it has been unjustified because the increases has come to. were minimal. If the Insurance Commis­ sioner was astute in that field, is there any At the moment, I submit we are looking reason to feel he was not just as astute in at a policy that is attempting to give the safe this field? The Treasurer made the right driver some measure of realistic point. We should give this scheme a try compensation. and see how it reacts. In the life of this Mr. Bennett: By making him insure to Government many pieces of legislation have the full market value. been introduced and subsequently amended. Mr. SMITH: He is insuring for a figure Opposition Members: Hear, hear! that the insurance companies recognise as sufficient to cover his claims. Mr. SMITH: Opposition members did exactly the same when they were in power. The bon. member for Salisbury said that And they did not even understand the only 5 per cent. of vehicles are stolen or lost amendments! by fire. If more were lost in that way we would have to pay higher premiums. In all of these matters common sense should prevail. It has in the other States. Mr. Sherrington: I did not say that at all. Quite obviously in the other States Opposition Mr. SMITH: The bon. member did. members have been more astute. And that would not be very hard! In the other States The matter under consideration is the Opposition members have not seen fit to make actual claims experience. The Leader of the any song and dance about this scheme. They Opposition was off the mark when he have gone along sensibly, studying the pro­ referred to the under-25 driver whose car posals, and in 12 months' time they might was damaged when parked, and who come up with a sensible suggestion, which is suffered thereby. As I understand it, the not what we have had here this morning. under-25 driver does not lose his excess in such cases under this policy. In any event, Mr. LLOYD (Kedron) (12.48 p.m.): The let us not be too sympathetic towards those hon. member for Windsor has accused who park cars; let us look at the way some members on this side of the House of being cars are parked. It is no wonder that some childish in their attitude. Neither the bon. of them are damaged; the manner of park­ member for Windsor nor the Treasurer has ing invites this sort of damage. replied to any of the arguments put forward by Opposition members. It is essential As to repair costs, some queries were that this matter should be clarified so that raised by the Opposition about an insurance members of the public can properly under­ company saying, "If you do not go to com­ stand what is going on in the motor vehicle pany A, which will do the repairs for $10, insurance field in this State. you will have to pay the difference between the charge of $10 by that company and the For a few days now many advertisements $20 that company B wants to charge." have appeared in the Press relative to compre­ hensive motor-vehicle insurance. Even the Mr. Sherrington: He might have a lot of State Government Insurance Office has been bodgies working for him. advertising that it has the cheapest compre­ Mr. SMITH: If he is a bodgie repairer it hensive cover, trying to attract people to that would be better to force him out of business office to insure their motor vehicles. than to let him repair vehicles and have From time to time insurance companies them as wrecks on the road. Let us have argue that they are incurring losses on motor reliable repairers. Insurance assessors know vehicle insurance, but their balance sheets who are reliable repairers and know the do not show, as a liability, the actual amount reasonable cost of repairs. These assessors expended; they show only an estimate of their are not mugs. They know their trade. They outstanding claims. It is impossible to ascer­ would not be assessing if they did not. If tain the actual profit because one figure is people undercut to get business and do only an estimate, and the actual expenditure unreliable repairs they will be run out of is never shown as a credit against the debit business because people will not go to them. which, as I said, is only an estimate of the 2260 Motion for Adjournment [ASSEMBLY] Motion for Adjournment liability. Why don't these companies show fault. Their attitude will be, '"You should their actual profits? This difficulty is not not have had the vehicle parked there." How confined to Queensland or Australia; it is will that person prove that he was not at world-wide. fault? Motor vehicle insurance cannot be so A person who borrows money from a hire­ unprofitable when insurance companies are purchase company will be required to pay constantly advertising for this type of busi­ 8 per cent. interest on the premiums paid ness. I have insurance cover on a vehicle in advance for the full period of two years. that I bought-second-hand, admittedly­ If he receives a bonus of 20 per cent. for and insured for £150 in 1960 with the State accident-free driving for the first year, the Government Insurance Office. The compre­ insurance charge for the second year will hensive cover at that time cost £5 6s. Od. a be reduced. Is that person to be credited year, and there was no accident-free bonus. with only the 20 per cent. rebate? If he is, Today I could not get £150, or $300, cover. he will still be paying 8 per cent. on the Within three years, the minimum amount original premium payable to the insurance for which one could insure had been company. It will be found that in every increased to $400, or £200, and the hire-purchase agreement entered into there minimum premium increased from £5 6s. Od. will be an increase in the payments made in 1960 to about £15 to £18 in 1963 or 1964. by the purchaser of the motor vehicle. He A similar car can no longer be insured for a will have to pay the 8 per cent.; he will minimum of $400 but must be insured for have to pay a higher premium than he has the market value of $1,300, which has been paid in the past. The Treasurer has not taken as the average value of cars between made any mention of the hire-purchase load­ the time when they are new and when they ing, and it will necessarily be higher on a are six years old. $1,300 policy than on a $400 policy. The Treasurer has not replied to the This is not restricted to hire-purchase Opposition's statements concerning hire­ transactions. It has been the practice for purchase companies. I am afraid the many years in the motor trade-and I Treasurer does not know the ramifications suppose in other fields of business, too­ of many of the finance companies that are for a second-hand-car dealer to give all operating within the motor-car industry. Past his business to one finance company, which practices will continue. A man who buys has its own subsidiary insurance company, a car valued at $1,300 and who wishes to and to receive a kickback on the sale of borrow $400 will go to a hire-purchase com­ second-hand motor vehicles. That practice will continue. Although insurance companies pany and will have to take out insurance claim that business of that type has been cover on $1,300 and not, as was the case in very unprofitable, in the past they have the past, $400 only. Although he is bor­ been able to kick back commission to people rowing only $400, no longer is he able to dealing in second-hand motor vehicles who insure the car for $400; he will have to give all their business to one finance company. insure it for the market value of $1,300. He then has the insurance premium, plus interest A person who buys a vehicle under hire on it, added to the charges imposed by the purchase need not take out a comprehensive finance company. policy. If he is the only driver of the car, he can take out a third-party policy Let us take the case of a man who borrows to insure the property or the motor vehicle $400 over two years. He must in future pay of another person; but he cannot do that to the hire-purchase company, or its affiliated if someone else also is driving the vehicle. insurance company, insurance premiums on a It is possible to insure against accident to cover of $1,300. The premium on this someone else's motor vehicle or property amount is $96 a year, and he must pay for about $9 or $10 a year; so a man 8 per cent. interest on $96 a year for two who has a motor vehicle with a market years. The insurance premiums amount to value of between $200 and $500 will not approximately $200, and in addition he must take out a comprehensive policy when the pay 8 per cent. interest. insurance company wishes him to insure it for about $1,300. The premium on $1,300 The Treasurer said that in future motorists will be payable for six or seven years even will be entitled to no-claim bonuses if they though the car's value after six years may have an accident-free record. Many of the not be more than $500, so it wiiJ not be older insurance companies such as the State worth while for a man to insure his car Government Insurance Office, which I com­ comprehensively. If he does pay the mend, have in the past granted no-claim premium on $1,300 and he has an accident bonuses to persons who have been involved involving him in Jess than $70 worth of in accidents through no fault of their own. damage, he is very unlikely to make a In the case of hire-purchase companies or claim on the insurance company if he is their subsidiary insurance companies, a driver receiving his 50 per cent. accident-free bonus. has to prove that an accident was in fact If he does claim, he will Jose it immediately, not his fault. His car may have been parked and in some cases it will take him three in Queen Street when hit by another vehicle. years, going up from 20 per cent. to 30 per He may not even have seen what happened. cent. to 50 per cent., to regain it. Is he to be blamed for that? The insurance company will not agree that it was not his [Sitting suspended from 12.57 to 2.15 p.m.] Motion for Adjournment (21 FEBRUARY] Motion for Adjournment 2261

Mr. W. D. HEWITT (Chatsworth) (2.15 a purchaser under a hire-purchase contract p.m.): One of the surprising things in is bound to insure with the company the motion before the House today is nominated by the hire-purchase company. the wording in the first paragraph, which That is no longer true. A car-owner can, refers to a "radical departure". It seems in fact, shop around; he has the same degree rather strange that the Labour Party, which of freedom and the same degree of flexibility at all times presents itself as being a radical as any other car-owner, be he under hire­ party-a party presenting radical policies­ purchase contract or the outright owner in should find itself complaining about some­ his own right. It is wrong for the hon. thing which it itself describes as a "radical member to create that impression. It departure". appears to me that if any­ If there is a section of motor vehicle owners thing represents radical change or radical which stands to benefit by this proposed new departure it, in itself, should warrant the scheme it is composed of those who have close attention and also the support of the purchased vehicles on hire purchase, and I Labour Party. One might suggest that the think we should try to establish how many Opposition has been less than well advised owners of cars there are today who are in the motion's phraseology. presently purchasing them under hire­ Be that as it may some interesting argu­ purchase contracts. We learn from the Gov­ ments have been presented today, and some ernment Statistician that, to 30 June 1965, of them are deserving of comment. The hon. the total finance devoted to the purchase member for Salisbury, in mentioning the of new motor-cars was $46,100,000. Finance premiums that he has paid on his vehicle, made available to purchase used cars was did not tell the House about his own claims $44,800,000. record. It is therefore impossible for mem­ bers of this House, or indeed for anybody, If we apply a reasonable price of $3,000 to determine whether or not there has been for a new vehicle and $1,200 for a used a great variation in the hon. member's vehicle we arrive at the result that in this premiums. day and age in the State of Queensland approximately 53,000 vehicles are being It was interesting to note also that the purchased under hire-purchase contracts. Leader of the Opposition made some refer­ No-one can convince me that a scheme that ence to the creation of reserves. The hon. provides greater benefit for 53,000 motorists gentleman said that in his opinion reserves is totally bad. I think there is great virtue in for provision against national disaster should the scheme, and I think this aspect of it in be provided by other than insurance com­ particular deserves some comment and praise. panies. That is an interesting proposition. Another section of the motion tends to sit Mr. Houston: I did not say that at all. in judgment on the relationship of claims to premium income. Again the inference is Mr. W. D. HEWfiT: I am sorry; that is drawn that the insurance companies have the way I interpreted it. brought in this scheme to provide more I point out to the House that one of revenue for themselves. If we look at the the hallmarks of efficient administration is Press statement of the Insurance Commis­ the creation of reserves because there may sioner on 25 January, 1967, we find the be many occasions, not only in the field of answer to that argument. In that article the insurance but in all commercial enterprises, Commissioner said­ when contingencies arise which, although "The new premiums represent an falling far short of being deemed great averaging of the old premiums, with the disasters, nevertheless can result in great calculations being made in a manner that inroads into the reserves of a company or will give insurers just about the same total institution. Therefore, I put it to the hon. premium income as under the old scheme, gentleman that it is a wrong premise to plus a slight addition to cover the cost of a say that insurance companies should not new benefit which frees claims involving aspire to create reserves because it is not only windscreen damage from the applica­ only the hallmark of efficiency but is a tion of any excesses and excludes sud1 necessity in proper commercial enterprise. claims when assessing rating numbers. I do not think anyone could seriously criticise insurance companies merely because they "In my opinion this small premium want to create reasonable reserves. addition could easily prove insufficient to meet the relevant benefit." The hon. member who spoke immediately before lunch made reference to the purchasing I think the Insurance Commissioner's article of motor vehicles under hire purchase. I supplies the answer: the insurance companies was pleased that the hon. member made do not necessarily stand to make extra money some reference to this matter, and I com­ from this scheme; they are not motivated by pliment the hon. member for Baroona, who the desire for more money but by the desire also referred to it and, with a sense of to adopt a more rational approach to the fairness, acknowledged that such people are levying of premiums. allowed to benefit under the enlarged scheme. Reference has been made today to the fact The hon. member for Kedron, in men­ that this is a scheme of trial and error. That tioning policies taken out on vehicles under has never been denied or argued against. I hire purchase, created the impression that see no ground for criticism in this. I will 2262 Motion for Adjournment [ASSEMBLY] Motion for Adjournment

refer to a statement by the Insurance Com­ Earlier speakers have referred to people missioner published in the January edition of shopping around for insurance. That is a "The Road Ahead". He was asked­ completely unrealistic approach. I do not "Will the safe driver be convinced that believe that the great majority of people shop he is being rewarded when, in fact, he may around for insurance. People are sold insur­ pay premiums that are an increase on those ance by insurance salesmen-and I have no of the old system?" complaint against that. Quite often they to which he replied­ are directed to an insurance company by a firm from which they purchase certain "Anomalies may still occur, but it is articles. They eventually approach an insur­ hoped these will be traced and eliminated ance company and thereafter, for the greater in the light of future experience. In a part of their life, they stay with that insurance major change of this nature an initial period company and give it their house insurance, of trial is essential before absolute finality life insurance, comprehensive insurance and can be reached." third-party insurance business. I reiterate There is no need to enter into any apology for that the great majority of people do not the Commissioner. There is no need to defend shop around for insurance; therefore, that the scheme merely because there is a degree approach does not apply. of trial and error about it. From this improve­ As I understand it from Press reports, the ment will emerge a scheme that will be new scheme appertaining to comprehensive better than the old one. Certainly it is a motor vehicle insurance, known as the "safety scheme that places proper emphasis on premiums and pays proper regard to road record plan", is supposedly designed to reward safety. We are witnessing at this point of the careful driver. Perhaps that is true time a transitional period in the insuring of to a degree. I have no argument against motor vehicles. There are some who will be rewarding the careful driver. On the con­ disadvantaged; there are some who certainly trary, I think it is an excellent idea. will find that they are paying more for their Mr. Campbell: Doesn't this scheme do that? insurance; there are some who will argue that they have not been properly rated. But Mr. TUCKER: It does to a degree, but this scheme sets out to place the onus on at whose expense? That is the important the careless driver, and it will reward the point. careful driver by giving him no-claim bonuses Everyone knows that insurance companies of a greater magnitude than he enjoyed are not benevolent societies. To use the before. In this way the new scheme should vernacular, they are out to make a "quid" encourage a greater degree of road safety in and there is no doubt that they are doing Queensland. For that reason alone it is worthy just that, as is evidenced by their movements of trial. I believe that in the course of time in the real property and construction fields the anomalies and inconsistencies will be in this State. I therefore pose this question: recognised and ironed out. The scheme is certainly worthy of a trial and I feel that the if they are to reward the careful driver people of Queensland will afford it a trial. and if, in fact, they are to reduce premiums for new cars, from where will they draw (Time expired.) the extra premiums to meet those costs? It will not come out of their own pockets. Mr. TUCKER (Townsville North) (2.25 p.m.): I support the motion. It is undoubtedly Mr. Chalk: If you are asking yourself-­ in the public interest to have this matter Mr. TUCKER: I listened to the Treasurer debated in the House. In moving around very carefully this morning and I gave him my electorate I have found a great deal a fair go. I have only 10 minutes and he of confusion in the public mind because of had 15. certain utterances and advertisements by insurance companies throughout Queensland. It appears to me that the owners of older After looking at the R.A.C.Q. journal and vehicles will be penalised because the careful other journals sent to me, and examining drivers, and certain drivers of new cars, will other representations that have been made be given lower premiums. to me by insurance companies, I am very The general public looks at any new plan confused about the whole issue. I can well in this light: first, what will it cost me? I understand how the general public feel about look at it in that way, too. Second, what the application of this scheme. For that will it offer me in return for what I pay? reason we believed that this matter should That is a reasonable approach. The owner be aired in the House today. We thought of a six-year-old vehicle will pay as much that if the Treasurer had some information in premiums as the owner of a brand-new he should give the public of Queensland vehicle. we would provide the forum for him to do so. After I heard his speech I That i's the crux of the matter, the kernel was a little more confused, because it of the argument. If a six-year-old car is a did not appear to me that he really explained complete write-off, the insurance company the issue or that he gave us a clear picture will not pay the owner the price of a new of what is happening in Queensland con­ car; it will pay him its market value. If a cerning comprehensive motor vehicle car worth $600 is almost a complete write­ insurance. off, the insurance company will not spend Motion for Adjournment [21 FEBRUARY] Motion for Adjournment 2263

$1,000 on restoring it. It is obvious that the the uncertainty being felt by motorists at the owners of such cars are bearing the whole suggestion that, as a result of the introduction of the burden, and that is not right. of the safety record plan in motor vehicle I have ascertained from the 1966 Auto­ insurance, they will be paying more for this motive Year Book that only 24 per cent. of type of insurance. That is understandable. the cars in Queensland are less than three I have not yet heard any contribution by a years old. Therefore three-quarters of the member from the opposite side of the House motoring public in this State will have to which shows that he is acquainted with bear the financial burden to keep down new­ insurance practices. If hon. members opposite car premiums and to assist the careful driver. were acquainted with them, they would know There is proof positive that those people will the very high and continuing premium loss bear the burden. ratios that have been experienced by insur­ It has been represented that the new ance companies in writing comprehensive scheme is designed to assist the motoring motor vehicle insurance. They would know public. Under the old scheme an owner that, as shown in the 1966 Annual Report of named the 'amount of cover he wanted the Insurance Commissioner, in 1964 the whereas under the new scheme he is forced claims ratio was 76·2 per cent., and in 1965 to insure for the amount the insurance com­ 70·9 per cent., which is well beyond sound pany decides, at least on a oar up to six underwriting practice. years old. It has not been proved that The insurance companies are to be those people are getting anything out of this applauded for coming to grips with the scheme. How can it be claimed that this situation and at long last rewarding the scheme will assist the worker, as the careful and prudent driver and asking those Treasurer said a while ago, when it is obvious who are responsible for the shocking losses that it does not? The insurance companies experienced by insurance companies in are trying to pull the wool over our eyes comprehensive motor vehicle insurance, when they claim that this will assist the which are far in excess of those shown in worker with an old vehicle. any other avenue of insurance, to carry the There is a danger that some of these cost. What is suggested is somewhat similar people will be tempted to carry the risk to making the punishment fit the crime. themselves. It is called the "safety plan". I I was shocked to hear the way in which the cannot see how it is a safety plan at all. If Insurance Commissioner has been charged, an owner carries the risk on his own vehicle, either by insinuation or openly, by members that is his own lookout and it is a calculated of the Opposition. risk. But what about damage to the pro­ Mr. Bennett: You are easily shocked. perty of innocent people he may run into if they are carrying the risk too? It is possible Mr. CAMPBELL: Perhaps I am. I may be that the driver would not be tan affluent sensitive, too. Why a public official of this person, and in that case nobody could recover State should be made to suffer the caustic damages from him. Therefore it is not a comments of Opposition members is beyond safety plan and I cannot see how it will help my comprehension. It would not be so bad the average worker or average person in the if the Insurance Commissioner had not drawn community. The only people it will help attention to the present state of affairs. I are the insurance companies. "Safety plan" shall quote a paragraph in his Annual Report is a misnomer. While it endeavours to for the year ended 30 June, 1966. On the reward safety it creates an undesirable subject of motor vehicle insurance, he said­ situation. I suggest we are going backwards "In this context, I must refer to the in taking this step. position of comprehensive motor vehicle A lack of statistics prevents the Australian insurance in which insurers (and myself) Labour Party in Opposition from determin­ are subject to many challenges as to the ing the amount of profits involved. Judging equity of the current premium rating by the number of advertisements appearing system. It is, I think, generally accepted in the Press, it is difficult to believe that this that inequities do exist-that the conscien­ section of insurance is unprofitable. The tious and considerate drivers may well be companies would not be so anxious to par­ subsidising to an unfair degree those who ticipate in this type of insurance if it was are incompetent or careless or irrespon­ unprofitable. If it is unprofitable, it seems sible. The public may be assured that strange that many insurance companies are detailed research into this aspect is at advertising in the Press saying, "Come to us present in progress and that there are and we will offer you a far better deal than encouraging signs of the emergence of new you are presently receiving." We have the rating systems which will display a far spectacle of the State Government Insurance greater degree of equity than has hitherto Office offering greater no-claim bonuses than been possible. However, despite this prom­ ever before. I have no quarrel with that. It ising trend, the basic problem of motor is obvious that it is able to meet them. vehicle insurance remains. The accident (Time expired). toll and the costs of repairs have reached levels that compel high premiums and, as Mr. CAMPBELL (Aspley) (2.35 p.m.): We yet, there is no positive sign of improve­ can well understand the endeavours of the ment; nor, I suggest, will there be, and the Opposition to make political capital out of possibility of yet higher premiums will 2264 Motion for Adjournment [ASSEMBLY] Motion for Adjournment

remain, until either sheer fear of drastic same. The risk involved in this insurance reprisals against careless driving, or far bears little or no relation to the value of the better, a rebellion of the public conscience car. against the numbing magnitude of personal Hon. members seem to overlook the fact suffering and economic loss that is occur­ that premiums create a pool, and it is from ring every day compels a remedy. Insurers the pool of contributions by those who are may be able to help the situation by giving insured that those who suffer loss are greater rewards to good drivers, but the indemnified. Insurance is only an indemnity real solution lies in the hands of each man against loss and it should not be related to and woman in the community." the actual value of the car. When one con­ This new road safety record plan will do siders the whole range of indemnities that much more to produce careful drivers than are offered by an insurance company to a could the most punitive traffic regulations, policyholder, the important point is that the because it offers an incentive to motorists to value of the car has very little relationship at all to the indemnity offered by the be more careful than they have been in insurance. the past. Mr. BENNETT (South Brisbane) Reference has been made to the huge (2.45 p.m.): I am sure we are all sorry reserves that insurance companies accumu­ that the Treasurer is sick today, but I cannot late. I do not know the extent of those help making the observation that the argu­ reserves, but I am very grateful that insur­ ment he has advanced is even sicker. He ance companies do pos·sess them, particularly has not satisfied this House that the change for motor vehicle insurance. Only three in policy has been justified, particularly years ago hon. members saw the spectacle when he sinks to the spurious argument he in this House of the Government introducing uses, attaching himself to the apron strings a special Bill to assist people who had com­ of the Insurance Commissioner. I think that prehensive insurance through an insurance is a sorry aspect of the Minister's argument. company that went out of business simply When a Minister wants to defend a policy because of bad underwriting and investment. that has been introduced he should have the The investment that insurance companies intestinal fortitude to stand up to his own make in brick and mortar not only creates policy rather than blame his Insurance Com­ a reserve for themselves; the income that missioner for it, as this Minister always does. is derived from it assists to keep the com­ If there is any aspect of a policy that has panies stable. been introduced for which credit can be Much has been said about the new pro­ taken, the Treasurer is quick to seize that posal to insure a car for its market value credit. and about people carrying their own risk. Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I will give the The precise meaning of this is that if a person hon. member some latitude, but he is making insures a car for half its value, the insurer a personal attack on the Treasurer. This is should carry only half the cost of the repairs. a debate on comprehensive motor vehicle To carry that to the extreme, one can visualise insurance and I ask the hon. member to the position of the people mentioned by stick to the matter involved in the motion. hon. members opposite. If they carry their own insurance, they meet the whole of the Mr. BENNETT: I am simply dealing with cost. Let us not have any more humbug the argument that the Insurance Commis­ about people carrying their own risk. If sioner should not be blamed. I do not think a person elects to insure below the market he should be, and I sincerely hope that this value of his car, he actually is the insurer Government is not a Public Service Govern­ for the difference. ment and that it will accept the responsibility for its own decisions. It has been said that the premium scale now in force is a radical departure from Mr. Chalk: You are twisting like a dingo. the previous scale. I maintain that it is merely an extension of the previous prac­ Mr. BENNETT: The Treasurer says that tice. Under the previous scale of motor I am twisting like a dingo; in reply; I say vehicle insurance, excess-free and limited that I am prepared to get up and voice my third party, the premium on a vehicle insured opinion and not be a craven coward blaming for $400 is $52.70; but for a motor vehicle the Public Service. insured for $1,600 the premium of $86.50 This is no occasion for us to weep croco­ increases on a sliding scale, not pro rata. As dile tears for the insurance companies, whose I said, it is an extension of the old principle. coffers are bulging with millions and millions The amount that a person insures his motor of dollars. Anyone who argues that insur­ vehicle for ignores the fact that the cover ance companies are on the brink of bank­ offered by insurance companies in many cases ruptcy either does not know the commercial bears no relationship to the insured value trading they are carrying on or alternatively of the vehicle. An analogy can be drawn is deliberately deceiving Parliament and the between this and compulsory third-party people of Queensland. I feel, for instance, insurance, under which, irrespective of the that a lot of correction should be made to value of the car, the premium paid by people their questionable conduct and that the clause owning private motor vehicles is exactly the commonly known in legal circles as the Motion for Adjournment [21 FEBRUARY] Motion for Adjournment 22-65

"Scott and Avery" clause should be aban­ I have said time and time again that doned and eliminated from insurance policies. it is impossible to get a true statement of Insurance companies regularly and repeatedly account from insurance companies. hide behind that clause, thereby depriving Admittedly the State Government Insurance the average citizen in the less affluent section Office in Queensland has set a much higher of the community of the justice he seeks standard than all other insurance companies. in the courts. I have personal knowledge We can get some figures from that office. of a one-time top public servant in Queens­ In its latest report, for example, under the land who on retirement purchased a hotel heading of "General Insurance" it indicates that was burnt down and because of the that the premiums paid in 1964 totalled "Scott and A very" clause, was deprived of $10,580,702 whereas the claims amounted justice. to only a meagre $4,606,636. In 1966 the premiums charged totalled $13,754,745 and Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I have warned the claims against that rather staggering sum the hon. member to stick to the motion, amounted to a mere $5,656,636. which deals with car insurance. If he does not, I will ask him to resume his seat. We can expect that all other insurance companies in this country are enjoying the Mr. BENNETT: This involves car insur­ same satisfactory results from the business ance also. in which they are engaging. One of the latest brochures put out by the private insur­ Mr. SPEAKER: Order! ance companies indicates that in 1960-61 the Joss in underwriting was some $4,500,000. Mr. BENNETT: I am merely saying that But when the companies started to make the imposition of these comprehensive car profits in 1962, and in the years thereafter, insurance premiums-or third-party insurance all they said was that the average under­ premiums, for that matter-is not being done writing surplus was 1 · 6 per cent. What in a fair and equitable fashion. Nothing does that mean? They are not willing to has been said in the debate today to con­ tell us. When they suffer a loss they are vince me and many others that this is not anxious to tell us the exact amount, but so. The Queensland motorist is being when they make a profit, which they call attacked by this Government every time a "surplus", they say it is 1· 6 per cent., extra revenue is required for some purpose which really does not inform us accurately in or other, and the Government is now assist­ any regard. Incidentally, they added, "which ing these affluent insurance companies to was much too low for comfort". extract further fees from the average motorist. This is being done in a most I am not convinced that we should be inequitable fashion. worrying about the insurance companies. They remind me of the butchers in the days For the ordinary motorist there will be of price control, when every butcher said at least a 15 per cent. increase in premiums. that he was trading at a loss and yet Admittedly it will not apply to all sections one could not buy a butcher shop anywhere of the community. If I had the time in Queensland. I will guarantee that the available I could prove that the more affluent insurance companies cannot explain satis­ in the community-the professional men and factorily why they are continuing to build the landed gentry-will not be called upon multi-storey buildings, for which there is no to pay the same increase as the average full demand at the present time. worker who owns his ordinary, humble car. Mr. Newton: It is the greatest building It has been the policy of this Government boom ever. that the ordinary worker should not have a car. This policy has affected the decisions Mr. BENNETT: As the hon. member for made by its public servants. I am not Belmont says, it has caused the greatest build­ castigating the State Public Service in any ing boom on record. This has been brought way, because public servants have an obliga­ about by the activities of the insurance tion to carry out the policy of the Govern­ companies, who are stowing away their funds ment of the day. The policy of this Govern­ in these building programmes for taxation ment is that the ordinary worker should reasons. not have a car, that a car for him should I believe that the driver under 25 vears be regarded as a luxury. That is the attitude of age should not be singled out for special of this Government. Those who can afford treatment. Under the new scheme he will to pay-the professional men, the big com­ continue to carry a special premium excess pany directors and businessmen-are paying of $50. I have a daughter aged 22 who has no car insurance at all, because they are been driving for the last five years-since she writing it off in taxation deductions for was 17 years of age-who has never put a their firms and companies, and hon. members scratch on a car. If she does have an opposite know it. It is unfortunate that accident, after the payment of insurance the worker should be treated in this fashion premiums for five years she will be saddled and that for him the Government considers with this excess of $50. I do not see any a car as something of a luxury rather than justification for that. an essential utility in the age in which we are living. (Time expired.) 2266 Motion for AdJournment [ASSEMBLY] Motion for AdJournment

Mr. PORTER (Toowong) (2.56 p.m.): It I knew some weeks ago that we should expect may be of some value to bon. members to a different type of performance from the recall at this stage what we are debating. Opposition than formerly. We are debating the motion, "That the House In considering this motion we must consider do now adjourn". That is a traditional pro­ whether the reasons advanced by the Leader cedure by which the Opposition endeavours to of the Opposition are indeed the full and take the fight into the Government camp, and proper reasons, or whether it is an attempt demonstrate that it is an Opposition on its to make the Labour Party appear something toes out trying to embarrass the Govern­ more than the little Sir Echo we heard so ment. often last year. If the Opposition has any intention of assisting the Australian Labour The Government is entitled to consider Party to return to its former strength it must whether the reasons given for the adjourn­ provide a better image than in the past. An ment motion are completely valid. Much of adjournment motion such as this, which the the debate has been around that point. I House can expect from time to time, is an think also that it is traditional to ask whether endeavour in earnest of its good faith. But these are all the reasons for the motion or I have no doubt at all that unless the whether the reasons given are largely a Opposition does better than it has on this pretext, so that to some degree we have to occasion it will still tend to look distinctly consider whether the feasibility or the out of character, trying to play the role of desirability of this new comprehensive motor new virility, of new politicians, because for vehicle insurance scheme is indeed the real so long it has been playing Dorothy Dix to reason for the adjournment motion at this the Government. session of the House in this new year of 1967. So, apart from the merits or otherwise of The new insurance scheme is a matter on the reasons advanced by the Leader of the which I have strong personal views. I am Opposition, I believe from the political particularly concerned about eroding indi­ aspect, which is the sole measure of this vidual liberty. That is a subject on which I motion today, that this House will be well have already spoken in this House on a advised to soundly defeat the motion. number of occasions. I regret seeing an avenue of decision for the individual being scrapped, Mr. BROMLEY (Norman) (3.2 p.m.): It whether as a result of the framing of legisla­ was wrong of the hon. member for Toowong tion, the writing of regulations under Acts or to criticise the Leader of the Opposition administrative decision, or by a conglomera­ and the Opposition as a party when, in all tion of companies acting within the frame­ sincerity, we are trying to bring to the work of a free-enterprise system. I regret it notice of the people of Queensland some­ on all counts. So far as I can see, these thing that is exercising their minds in many insurance proposals tend to erode the indi­ ways. If the bon. member for Toowong, vidual's right to make his own decisions and in his superior way, does not realise that to make his own mistakes if he wants to make the people are greatly concerned about this them. In other words, I am disturbed at the motion for adjournment, which I support, he manner in which the proposals will not permit is losing touch with the people and has the individual to say for himself what amount not been getting round his electorate as he of cover he is prepared to take on particular should. He and his party may not be con­ types of vehicles. It may be that I can be cerned about this safety record plan, but we persuaded to change my views, but so far I in the A.L.P. are. We are very sincere in have not been able to find any statistical moving this motion, as the Leader of the or theoretical evidence to convince me that the Opposition pointed out. We are not trying to individual should not be able to make his own make political capital out of it. We are decisions in this field. here to look after the welfare of the people of Queensland as a whole, not merely sec­ Having said that, I come back to the point tional interests. Most people are fortunate that we should remember what we are enough today to own a motor vehicle. Quite debating. This is a motion to adjourn the a number of them could not afford to insure House. Although I am concerned about some their vehicles before, without now making aspects of these insurance proposals, most it more difficult. The hon. member for certainly I will not permit myself to be Toowong did nothing to add to the debate sacrificed for a Roman holiday for the Opposition on this matter. We must bear in on this motion, nor did he put forward any­ mind that this motion probably flows from thing on a sound basis. last year's session. There are on this side, I This plan of comprehensive insurance think, some hon. members like myself who are came into effect on 1 February this year. not quite sure about the proposals in the Act. It applies only to vehicles used for private Obviously the Opposition desires to embarrass purposes, not to those used in industry or the Government by enlisting the support of commerce. The Treasurer said this morn­ such members. For my own part, that will ing that there has been no criticism of the not happen. I think the reasons given for this scheme in other States. I agree. Recently motion are more evident than real. This is a I visited three other States and did not read fairly transparent device to try to demonstrate any complaints about it in the Press. But to the people of Queensland that this year I did hear quite a number of people speak­ the Opposition is indeed an Opposition. I ing about the scheme. Some of them were know that these instructions have gone out. quite worried. The main reason for the Motion for Adjournment [21 FEBRUARY] Motion for Adjournment 2267 absence of criticism in the Press was that companies. Insurance must be an extremely under this Commonwealth-wide plan the profitable business. In a copy of "Australian States are allowed to apply their own rates. Insurance and Banking Record" that I have Therefore, because the criticism is greatest in my hand I counted, in the brief time that in Queensland, it follows that the people here I had before rising to speak, 143 advertise­ are more disturbed and perturbed than those ments inserted by insurance companies. I in the other States. I think that that effec­ ceased counting at that figure because the tively answers the Treasurer. However, I time of the previous speaker expired and he agree that there is not much criticism in resumed his seat. other States. All these companies, some of which I Motor vehicles can no longer be insured have never heard of, seem to have very for specific sums, which takes from the large offices. In Sydney, the A.M.P. has people the right to decide how much they built an edifice so tall that one can barely shall insure for. As the Leader of the see the top of it. Right beside it another Opposition said, motor vehicles now have to insurance company is putting up a building be insured for their market value, which I that will dwarf the A.M.P. building. So no­ think is undemocratic and places a further one should get the idea that there is no burden on the public. With all due respect to money to be made out of insurance. If loss the Government, it appears to me that pres­ is incurred on car repairs in some instances, sure has been applied somewhere along the surely it can be offset to a certain extent by line to have this new scheme approved. Again the tremendously high profits made by insur­ the motorist seems to be, as he always is the ance companies in other fields. I think many milking cow not only for Governments' but matters of that type must be taken into for private institutions, too. In 1966, consideration. $203,901,000 was collected in petrol tax Insurance companies have investments alone. That is merely one item being taken running into millions of dollars. No doubt from the pockets of motorists. the money invested in that way does much The Royal Automobile Club of Queensland good for the economy of the country; I am has thousands of members and represents very pleased to see it, and I should like to thousands of motorists. This organisation has, see more of it. Nevertheless, there is no to may way of thinking, been strangely silent doubt that insurance companies very often on this subject. Even its officers may not pick and choose their business, whether in understand the scheme; certainly a lot of the field of motor vehicle insurance or life people in Queensland do not. They seem to assurance. be adopting a ."wait and see" attitude, and (Time expired.) they may be nght. Let us hope that what turns out is ultimately for the good of the Mr. AIKENS (Townsville South) {3.11 motorist. p.m.): It is true, as was stated by the hon. In the repairing of damaged motor vehicles member for Toowong, that motions to two quotations have to be given, and it is adjourn the House are more or less an oppor­ not always the one who quotes lower or the tunity for political beating of the air. But better repairer who gets the job. On this such motions have been moved on many aspect, I could quote many cases if I had occasions in the past. Although they signify ~ufficient time. We know, however, that often nothing, they do give hon. members an oppor­ 1t seems to be a case of, "It is your turn to tunity of discussing the matter contained in get the job this time and it will be some­ them, and I welcome the opportunity to make body else's turn next time." a contribution to this debate. The new safety record plan appears to me I view with considerable suspicion anything to be an unfair and undemocratic system. connected with insurance, because I do not The owner of the car has no choice in the think that anywhere in the civilised world amount for which he insures it. This could there is a bigger and more lucrative racket result in lower premium income for insurance than the insurance racket. In Queensland companies from motorists who decide to alone there must be a couple of hundred car~y their own insurance. A motorist may insurance companies. They employ scores dec1de to take out only a third-party policy of thousands of well-paid people, and the to cover damage to other vehicles and not managers live in palatial homes and drive his own, thus carrying his own insurance. luxurious motor-cars. If the hen. member Not enough detailed publicity has been for Toowong believes in unrestrained given to this comprehensive insurance plan. private enterprise, he must bubble over Most people are worried about it and with joy at the unrestrained enterprise irrespective of what Government member~ exemplified by private insurance companies say, I think the people are entitled to a com­ in this State. plete and detailed account of what it means All insurance is a gamble, but the insur­ to the ordinary person. I believe that the ance companies have the game sewn up so figures resulting from insurance accountincr well that they cannot possibly lose. If one methods in comprehensive motor-vehicl~ goes into a gambling school, the person who insurance are quite untrue. This must be so runs it-the ring-keeper, or perhaps the because. not only in Brisbane but in every banker-does stand a chance of losing if ?ther c1ty o~ the Commonwealth huge build­ the cards or the dice go against him. But mgs are bemg erected solely by insurance the insurance companies cannot lose, because 2268 Motion for Adjournment [ASSEMBLY] Motion for Adjournment they get together, as they have in this case, simply as political-propaganda stunts and and rig the premiums so that they must make they are debated as political-propaganda a profit. stunts, which is to be deplored. Mr. Bennett interjected. The most astonishing thing is that no-one has been told the simple, unadulterated truth Mr. AIKENS: The hon. member for South about motor vehicle insurance premiums and Brisbane is here purely by accident-he pay-outs. I have read in the balance sheets could not wrangle a brief in court today­ of many insurance companies-and, indeed, and his contribution to the debate really was in the balance sheet of the State Government not worth listening to. I hope he does not Insurance Office a statement relating to its carry on in court as he carried on here operations-that claims under comprehensive today. motor vehicle insurance policies amount to, That is the position; I think these are say $1,500,000 for a certain year, whereas political-propaganda stunts and, as a member the premiums for that year amount to only of this House once said-I think you were $1,000,000. What the insurance companies a private member when he said it, Mr. do not tell us is that, instead of suffering a Speaker; I do not want to embarrass you­ loss of $500,000 on comprehensive motor "This sort of thing has been going on since vehicle insurance for that year's operations, time immoral". These are political­ they have in fact made a profit of up to propaganda stunts and we who have been $250,000 or even $500,000. Before the here for some time regard them 'as such. claims are settled-they are never all settled That is why I never cast a vote on them­ in the year in which the premiums are paid­ because I will not become involved in considerable adjustments are made. Many of party-political propaganda. the claims are withdrawn, most of them are reduced, and many of them are reduced con­ Mr. Bennett: You sit on the fence, as siderably. That means that in 18 months, usual. two years, or three years, by the time all Mr. AIKENS. I do not sit on the fence the claims for that year are assessed and -and I do not make charges against the paid, instead of incurring a loss of $500,000 police unless I have the guts to substanti

The Treasurer said that broken wind­ for any damage that they cause. After all, screens would not be charged for. They did not a Labour Government in years gone should not be charged for. The hon. mem­ by introduce compulsory third-party insur­ ber for Baroona and I spoke to the Fire ance for that very reason? So many motor and Accident Underwriters' Association on vehicle drivers could not afford to pay this point. It is no secret-they told us damages that parliamentary action had to be straight out-that premiums are loaded to taken. In this instance it is being laid wide cover losses in windscreen replacement. The open to an extent that far exceeds the Minister should not think that he is getting finances of car-owners. The basis used to something for nothing; he certainly is not. justify the figures was the values as at Mr. Hanlon: They said that was the only September 1966, but those values were loading. inflated for this scheme. It was interesting to hear the hon. member Mr. HOUSTON: That is so, but the fact for Windsor, a legal man, say that there is that there is a loading. should be an increase in insurance premiums The Government has not justified the because prices generally have risen. That increase in premiums that was imposed in is not a bad argument in itself. But the September last. Hon. members opposite spokesmen for the insurance companies have have said that the careful driver will benefit. said emphatically that there will be no Let us consider the case of a man who increase in over-all premiums, and that all decided to insure his car for $400 under the the companies are doing is to shift the burden old scheme. from the careful driver to the not-so-careful Mr. Campbell: He is carrying his own driver. Yet a member of this House, speak­ risk? ing on behalf of the Liberal Party, said that that was not right and that there will be Mr. HOUSTON: No. Many cars are profits shared. valued at only $400. The hon. member does The hon. member for Windsor referred not even know their value. to life as·surance. But in that field the I could use $600 as a figure, but I will person who takes out the insurance decides stick to $400 as it is an easy figure for the the amount of cover he wants. That is the purposes of calculation. With the Club only matter on which I agree with the hon. Motor Insurance Agency Pty. Ltd., prior to member for Toowong, namely, that a man September the total insurance premium for should have the right to choose. $400 cover was $33.90. If there was no claim the premium dropped by $13.50. In (Time expired.) other words, the premium was about $21. In Question-That the House do now adjourn August, 1966, the Club Motor Insurance (Mr. Houston's motion)-put; and the House advertised in the R.A.C.Q. journal that the divided~ new premium rates for $1,000 were $44.10, AYES, 25 and with a no-claim bonus the premium was Bennett Jordan Bromley Maun $26.50. With the same insurance company, Byrne Newton after the September increase the premium Davies O'Donnell rose to $55.20, but with the no-claim bonus Dean Sherrington Donald Thackeray it dropped to $33.10. The Treasurer said Dufficy Tucker that the new scheme is a wonderful scheme, Duggan Wallis-Smith Graham Wood, P. but under it, for a car valued at $1,000, a Hanlon person now pays a premium of $39. Hanson Harris Tellers: What is all this rubbish about the careful Houston Jones, R. driver saving under this new scheme, which Inch Melloy the Minister favours so greatly? It is just NOES, 43 so much eyewash and baloney. The insur­ Armstrong Lie kiss ance companies think it will pay them. The Beardmore Lonergan Bjelke-Petersen Miller basis for the scheme originated in Western Carum Muller Australia, where the companies were faced Campbell Murray Carey Newbery with problems because of the insurance Chalk Nicklin set-up. The system in Western Australia for Chinchen Pilbeam Cory Pizzey third-party and comprehensive insurance was Delamothe Porter completely different from that in the other Ewan Rae States. The insurance companies in Queens­ Fletcher Richter Herbert Row land immediately seized on that scheme as Hewitt, N. T. E. Smith a means whereby they could not only get a Hinze Sullivan Hodges Tooth better deal for themselves but also catch up Hooper Wharton with many people who they felt were under­ Houghton Wood. E. G. W. insured. Hughes Jones, V. E. I am mainly concerned about justice being Kaus Tellers: Knox Hewitt, W. D. done to those who own older cars that have Lee deteriorated in value as the years have passed. McKechnie I am also concerned in that there may be many PAIR people driving vehicles today who could be Lloyd Low involved in accidents and be unable to pay Resolved in the negative. Jury Acts [21 FEBRUARY] Amendment Bill 2271

JURY ACTS AMENDMENT BILL important example of discrimination is contained in the Jury Acts, which do not INITIATION IN COMMITTEE lay down the same eligibility for women (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. Hooper, as for men. Under the existing provisions Greenslopes, in the chair) of the Jury Acts, and subject to the disqualifications and exemptions set forth Hon. P. R. DELAMOTHE (Bowen­ therein, every male person between the ages Minister for Justice) (3.41 p.m.): I move­ of 21 and 65 years who is of good fame "That a Bill be introduced to amend and character, resident within Queensland, the Jury Acts, 1929 to 1964, in certain and enrolled on the annual electoral roll particulars." for the time being as an elector under the laws relating to the election of members The origin of the jury system is a subject of the Legislative Assembly, is qualified and on which scholars have often differed, but liable for jury service. it can safely be said that trial by jury as a means of achieving justice is something On the other hand, female persons that has its origins deep in our history. between 21 years •and 60 years of age, being Although some historians believe that they of good fame and chamcter, being have discovered in Anglo-Saxon England so resident and so enrolled are qualified and traces of what might subsequently have liable for jury service only if they notify become a jury system, it now appears to in writing the Princip•al Electoral Officer or be agreed that the institution was originally an electoral registrar for the electoral district developed on the Continent and brought for which they are enrolled that they desire to England by the Normans. The jury to serve as jurors. That is the present law. system of Norman England was undoubtedly primitive, but by the middle of the 14th In effect, men, by virtue of their being century it had matured into a form men, are qualified and liable for jury service remarkably similar in its essentials, though whereas women can only volunteer for jury with important differences, to that existing service. Up to the present time, because of in modern times. this, 154 women have so volunteered in the The laws relating to jury service in this metropolitan area 1and, for the rest of State are, of course, based on the English Queensland, for other cities and towns, the jury system and are presently contained number is 26. The proposed amendments to in the Jury Acts, 1929 to 1964. It appears the Jury Acts serve to make jurj' service the that the introduction of the English jury same for both sexes. system, as we know it, into the administration of justice in the colony of New South Wales, Overseas in England and in the United of which Queensland was so long a part, States of Amerioa, women are placed on the dates back to 1839. Upon separation, the same level as men for jury service. In Eng­ laws of the colony of New South Wales land, in 1963, a department•al committee was relating to jury service became part of the appointed under the chairmanship of the Rt. laws of this State. Hon. Lord Morris of Borth-y-Gest, C.B.E., M.C., to inquire into the law and practice in Recently correspondence has been exchanged England and Wales regarding the qualifi­ between the Commonwealth and States cations for, exemptions from, and conditions regarding a United Nations draft declaration of jury service, and related matters, and to on the elimination of all forms of discrimi­ make recommendations thereon. The report nation against women. The preamble to the of the departmental committee was presented draft stated, inter alia­ to the Parliament of the United Kingdom in "That discrimination against women is April, 1965, and inter alia, stated­ incompatible with the dignity of women as human beings and with the welfare of "The contribution which women can the family and of society, and prevents make as jurors to the administrativn of their participation on equal terms with justice is no less valuable thaJ: that made men in the political, social, economic and by men. It is in our view inherent in the cultural life of their countries and is an very idea of a jury that it should be as far obstacle to the full development of the as possible a genuine cross-section of the potentialities of women in the service of adult community, and we think that a their countries and humanity." system which has the effect of arbitrarily restricting the number of women jurors is It further stated--­ indefensible. Although it is true that many "That it is necessary to ensure the women have family responsibilities which universal recognition in law and in fact would make it difficult for them to spare of the principle of equality of men and the time for jury service, this problem can women.', be solved by a generous use of the On 30 November, 1964, following a request summoning officer's power to excuse. It in that behalf, the Queensland Government has to be remembered also that even considered the apparent discriminations among married women there are many against women both in fact and in law who do not have to stay at home all dray. that appeared to exist in Queensland. How We were told by the general secretary of far the policies and actions stem from a the Trades Union Congress that in June conscious and deliberate attitude to women 1962 there were some 4·3 million married is, of course, debatable. However, an women employees (excluding widows) 2272 Jury Acts [ASSEMBLY] Amendment Bill

between the ages of twenty and sixty-four judge commented favourably on the action and that these constituted thirty-six per of the young woman. Besides throwing light cent. of all married women." on the calibre of women jurors, such action Hon. members may have noticed in the is indicative of the profound sense of Press today a prediction that in 10 years' responsibility with which juries discharge time half the work-force in Australia will be their functions. married women. The name of the first woman to be offered a Chair of Law at an Australian university The committee also expressed its view that was announced only last Friday. The jurors should not be recruited from amongst announcement was in reference to the those who volunteer to serve and that jury appointment of Dr. Enid Campbell, former service should be regarded as ~ duty which is associate professor at the University of the counterpart of the privilege of being a Sydney, to the Sir Isaac Isaacs Chair of Law citizen. It thought that a voluntary panel at Monash University. would not necessarily attract the right sort of person and that if it involved frequent ser­ One could cite many examples of the fact vice it might lead to the development of a that women are not backward in being able class of so-called "expert" jurors, which to understand the intricacies of the Jaw. One would be most undesirable. could point to the appointment of a woman judge in South Australia. In Australia, the States of Western Aus­ tralia, Victoria, and South Australia have Only days ago the Attorney-General for recently enacted legislation in recognition of South Australia (Mr. D. A. Dunstan) was the right of female persons to serve on quoted in the Press as saying that the juries. The Jury Act of 1957 of Western system of women serving on juries in that Australia provided for jury service by State was working extremely well, and that women. the courts and counsel had expressed satis­ faction with the results. In commenting on I should like to quote what the Minister the first year of women serving on criminal for Justice in Western Australia has to say court juries, Mr. Dunstan is reported as say­ about the working of the system there. I ing that women had shown they were as quote from a recent letter from him which competent as men to sift evidence and arrive reads­ at just verdicts on criminal court juries. "The system of including women in jury service is now working smoothly and is an In each of the States of Western Australia, established and accepted feature of the Victoria and South Australia women can administration of justice in the criminal opt out. jurisdiction in this State. Those women In Queensland we have in our courts who are called upon to serve generally women plaintiffs and defendants, women wit-· undertake the duty willingly, and appear to nesses, women solicitors and, most recently, approach their task conscientiously." our first practising woman barrister was In 1964 Victoria amended its Jury Act to sworn in. As hon. members know, the Law provide for jury service by women. I quote Society draws no distinction between the from a letter by the Hon. A. G. Rylah, sexes with its solicitors. I am sure all would Attorney-General in Victoria, who is well hesitate to say that our woman M.L.A., the recognised as a leader of the law in that bon. member for Ipswich West, was back­ State­ ward in following, interpreting and taking "The introduction of jury service for part in the proceedings of Parliament. women has worked well in the one jury Conventions of political parties have asked district (Geelong) where it is in operation." for service on juries to be on the same basis Mr. Bennett: That is only one district. for both men and women. In addition, many women's organisations have asked for the Dr. DELAMOTHE: I am glad the hon. same thing. In my view it would seem that member came in, because the letter now is an appropriate time to remove all continues­ discrimination against women in the field of "It is intended to extend the operation jury service. of the provisions for women jurors to Jury service is a responsibility of citizen­ substantially the whole of the remaining ship and should be shared equitably and, as country areas in the State at the com­ trial by jury is essentially trial by a cross­ mencement of the next jury year. There section of the adult lay community, we are are some problems in relation to the Mel­ at present only drawing on half that area. bourne area but these will be overcome when a new courts building, now under Because of fixed ideas, traditional pre­ construction in the city area, has been judices and entrenched attitudes in the popu­ completed." lation at large, I have thought it desirable to give this introductory background because Hon. members will recall reading some we are well behind the trend of the times in six months ago about an attractive young comparison with other States, England and hairdresser, who, on only the second day the United States of America. that women were allowed on Victorian juries, asked several pertinent questions in the Mr. Tucker: What about equal pay for course of a trial at Geelong. The presiding equal work? Jury Acts [21 FEBRUARY] Amendment Bill 2273

Dr. DELAMOTHE: We are dealing with apply for excusal in the normal way and it the Jury Act now. is not doubted that summoning officers and This Bill seeks to amend the Jury Acts, courts will deal with their applications 1929 to 1964, and has as its primary object sympathetically. For instance, it would be the removal of the present restrictions as highly undesirable for the spouse of a regards jury service that have been placed member of the legal profession to serve on a upon women in Queensland. In order to jury if he or she knew the judge trying the achieve the primary objective of so removing case or any of the barristers or solicitors the present restrictions placed upon women connected with it. jurors it will be necessary to make several For example, Mrs. Bennett would not be amendments to those Acts. happy if she was on a jury hearing a case The Bill contains a provision which, in in which the hon. member for South Brisbane effect, will enable the basic qualifications for appeared. jury service for both male and female persons Mr. Bennett: That is only a plausible to be the same, thus making it no longer necessary for women to notify the appropriate excuse and is an insult to my wife because authority of their desire to serve on juries. she would be judicially minded, like any The basic qualification for jury service will other woman. remain in the case of both sexes as enrol­ ment on the annual electoral roll. The Dr. DELAMOTHE: Justice must not only maximum age limits of 65 years for males be done, it must also appear to be done. and 60 years for females will also remain unchanged. This not only accords with the It is thought wrong for the wife of a qualification for Commonwealth age pen­ policeman to serve on a jury in a case sions but also is in keeping with the view of in which members of the Police Force are the English committee that although jury involved. Any of these grounds would be a service is to be regarded as a duty of citizen­ sufficient reason for the sheriff to excuse the ship, it is perhaps not one that should be prospective juror and the prospective. juror demanded of people at an age when they should bring these facts to the attentiOn of are entitled to the freedom that comes of either the sheriff or the court. retirem&nt, as well as the consideration that as people get older the more of a Women, although liable for jury service hardship a long day in court must be, and on the same basis as men, will, under the that many people suffer some slight impair­ provisions of the Bill, be entitl~d ~o exercis.e ment of eyesight or hearing as the years go their right not to serve on JUnes. This by. right is the same in principle as that which was oiven to female jurors in Western Aus­ Section 8 of the Jury Acts provides for cer­ tralia: Victoria, and South Australia. tain persons who are therein set forth to be exempt from serving on juries. The exemp­ If a woman who is otherwise eligible does tions are determined according to occupa­ not wish to be enrolled for service on a tion. The Bill seeks to extend the statutory jury, she merely has to inform the sheriff occupational exemptions for jury service. At in writing that she desires to be exempt present medical practitioners, dentists, and from service and exemption will be granted pharmaceutical chemists, all being duly to her. registered and in actual practice, are so exempted. Mr. Bromley: Will this be made clear to her? Mr. Bennett: Is there discrimination against doctors? Dr. DELAMOTHE: Yes. Some women may desire exemption for an indefinite dura­ Dr. DELAMOTHE: Those who do not tion whereas a temporary period may be practise. I could not claim exemption. desired by others. Unless the sheriff is Additions to these occupations will be informed by writing of the period for which made to include nurses, nursing aides and exemption is sought, an exemption from jury physiotherapists (all of whom, male and service for an indefinite duration will be female, are members of an occupation for granted. A woman who has been granted the relief of pain or suffering). Monks, nuns exemption for an indefinite duration will only and other members under vows of any be eligible for future jury service if she religious community which requires its informs the sheriff in writing that she no members to be under vows, and postulants longer desires exemption. for membership of such a community, will be similarly exempted. It is to be emphasised that reasons are not required to support an application for In following the objective of placing males exemption. All the Bill requires is a simple and females on basically an equal footing written notification to the sheriff. The number for jury service, the Bill does not attempt to of women who have exercised their right to interfere with the principle that spouses of be exempted from jury service in the southern persons who would be statutorily exempt States is far less than was originally expected from jury service, either because of their by the authorities there. connection with the administration of the law and justice or for other reasons, may Mr. Bennett: What are the figures? 2274 Jury Acts [ASSEMBLY] Amendment Bill

Dr. DELAMOTHE: I have not the exact Brisbane can tell me why the date is the figures, but I believe 15 per cent. opted out first day of June and not the first day of in Victoria and 13 per cent. in South July. Australia. Mr. Bennett: There is no reason for that. Mr. Hanlon: Do they simply write in to Dr. DELAMOTHE: It is just a date picked opt out, and is that the end of it? out? Dr. DELAMOTHE: I think the han. mem­ Mr. Bennett: Yes. ber will find that they can opt out on a second occasion. Dr. DELAMOTHE: I have tried to detail the historical background as I have pro­ I believe that a similar position will result ceeded. from the implementation of this Bill and that women in Queensland will accept jury The annual jury list for the jury district service as a duty which is the counterpart comprises the names of all persons marked of the privilege of citizenship, rather than or indicated in the copy of the annual roll opt out. I do not think that Queensland which has been furnished to the Sheriff by women will differ very much from their the Principal Electoral Officer. Han. mem­ sisters in the other three States. bers who were then present will recall that in 1964 the Jury Acts were amended. One The South Australian announcement shows of the 1964 amendments provided that, for that there is no objection to women per se the purpose of making an annual jury list on a jury as they are no less able to make for the jury district of Brisbane, the Sheriff a decision than a man. It is interesting shall choose by ballot such number (being that counsel in the South have tended to not less than 3,000) of the persons indicated challenge women less than men. However, it in the copy of the annual roll furnished to has been stated elsewhere that jury service the Sheriff by the Principal Electoral Officer is not popular with any of those who are as being presently qualified and not exempt called upon to take part in it even though to serve as jurors as the Sheriff considers the strangeness of the language and the is adequate to enable him to make the jury unfamiliarity of the legal proceedings and list for the jury district of Brisbane. legal terms have been largely dissipated by television. The Sheriff prefixes to the jury Jist the name of the court city or court town of In relation to the selection of jurors, an the jury district for which the list is made interesting point arises as to why the number and to every name appearing in the list a selected to serve as jurors on a trial is 12. number, so that all the names listed in the Many explanations have been offered of the jury list are numbered in regular arithmetical number 12-for instance, the 12 tribes of progression beginning with the number 1 Israel, the 12 patriarchs, the 12 officers of prefixed to the first name in the list. Solomon recorded in the Book of Kings, and the 12 Apostles. Mr. Houston: How are they selected for the jury list? Apparently what was wanted was a number that was large enough to create a formidable Dr. DELAMOTHE: I shall tell the han. body of opinion in favour of the side that member that if he waits a little while. won; and doubtless the reason for having The Sheriff then causes the several numbers 12 instead of 10, 11, or 13 was much the contained in the jury list to be printed or same as gives 12 pennies to the shilling and written upon separate cards of the same size which exhibits an early abhorrence in English and shape and the name of the court city countries of the decimal system. or court town for which the jury list is made. For the information of han. members, I He then places all the cards so printed or now propose to outline briefly the present written upon in a jurors-in-use box. method of selection of jurors. I know Mr. Houston: How do you get the first that some members know all about it, but list from all the electoral rolls? There are many do not. Every year the Principal 28 in Brisbane. Electoral Officer compiles an annual electoral roll for each electoral district in the State. Dr. DELAMOTHE: The Principal Elec­ Upon completion of this work, the Principal toral Officer marks on the rolls tho'Se who Electoral Officer marks on a copy of each are apparently liable and qualified for jury annual electoral roll the names of persons service. who are apparently qualified, and not exempt, Mr. Houston: How many would there be to serve as jurors. A copy of the roll so in Brisbane at present? marked is furnished to the Sheriff. An annual jury list for each jury district Dr. DELAMOTHE: About 171,000 males in Queensland is also made. The Sheriff and about 190,000 females. is required each year to complete the making Upon receipt of a jury precept, which of the annual jury list before the first day is issued by the court and delivered by of June so that the jury list can be brought the Registrar or associate by whom it was into use on that day and to be used for signed to the Sheriff, the Sheriff, in the the period of one year next following that presence of another court official, proceeds day. Perhaps the han. member for South to draw the names of persons to serve as Jury Acts (21 FEBRUARY] Amendment Bill 2275

jurors at the court for which the precept Under the proposed scheme, the Sheriff, has been issued. For the purposes of the upon receiving a jury precept for a jury or an drawing, he causes the jurors-in-use box order for the enlargement of a jury panel, will to revolve on its axle for a convenient time be required to make a drawing in the usual and then draws from the box, one after manner from a jurors-in-use box and to another, the number of cards required. place the names of persons, one after another, as the cards relating to those names Mr. Houston: It will be a decent-sized are so drawn from the jurors-in-use box, box, won't it? upon a prospective jurors list, as at present. Dr. DELAMOTHE: Yes, a big barrel. The Sheriff, having regard to possible As each card is drawn, the Sheriff ascertains applications for excusal from jury service, the number that is printed or written on will draw only such number of cards as he the card and then refers to the corresponding considers will be sufficient to eventually number in the jury list. He then reads provide a panel of persons to be summoned aloud the name designated by the number as jurors. The Sheriff will then be required­ and writes the number and the name with this is the important change-to communicate the address and occupation of the person with each person, male or female, whose concerned on a panel, which is signed by name appears on the prospective jurors' him and sealed with the seal of his office. list by forwarding a notice advising each A summons is then issued to every juror person that he or she may be required for whose name appears on the panel. jury service and a form of questionnaire calculated to elicit from the person to whom Perhaps the hon. member for South the notice is directed whether he or she Brisbane might advert to something that is qualified and liable for jury service, and, gave me some thought. I refer to married if so liable, whether he or she wishes to women whose names are drawn out of the make application to be excused from such jurors-in-use box. Naturally, their occupation service. Is given; but the hon. member might have Mr. Houston: About how many would something to say on whether or not the there be? the occupation of their husband should be given too. Dr. DELAMOTHE: I could not hazard a guess. Mr. Houston: You say it first and we will tell you whether you are right or Mr. Bennett: There would be 16 more wrong. than 12. Dr. DELAMOTHE: If you want an even­ Dr. DELAMOTHE: One naturally turns tual 12 jurors you must have 28, and to get to a person who 1s practising in this particular field. 28 you might extend the questionnaire to 80. Every person to whom such a notice is Mr. Tucker: This is the first time you sent is to be required to complete the ques­ have ever given him any lollies. tionnaire truthfully and to return it to the Sheriff within the period specified in the Dr. DELAMOTHE: The hon. member notice for that return. If a woman to must admit that I am always fair. whom a notice is sent has not already As stated previously, the jury precept is applied for exemption from jury service and issued by the court. However, if the criminal desires so to do, she may state in the sittings of the court are appointed for longer questionnaire her desire to be exempted and than two weeks, the court issues a second exemption, either temporary or permanent precept. All jurors who are required to according to her wishes, will be granted. attend the court by virtue of the second Upon the expiration of the time allowed precept are requested to attend the court for the return of the completed question­ not earlier than the 14th day after the day naire the Sheriff, after studying the replies appointed for the commencement of the received by him, is required to delete from criminal sittings in question. the prospective juror3' list the names of all Mr. Bromley: Would you care to produce persons who in his opinion cannot be this in book form? located, who are not qualified and liable for jury service and whom he excuses or Dr. DELAMOTHE: The hon. member exempts from jury service. will get it in "Hansard", which is in book The Sheriff is then required, in accordance form. with the jury precept or order of the court, In short, this provision, which was inserted to compile from the names remaining on the in the Jury Acts in 1964, ensures that, prospective jurors' list a panel of jurors where possible, jurors only attend the court intended to be summoned by raking the for a period of two weeks. names of such jurors in the same order as Fears have been expressed that the long those names appear on the prospective jurors' delays in empanelling a jury because of list. As soon as the panel has been com­ hearing applications for excusal lead to pleted the Sheriff is to issue a summons to increases in legal fees and will be aggravated each juror whose name appears on the panel. by women being summoned. The Bill I should like to stress that a woman will proposes to alter the procedure for summoning only be issued with a jury summons where jurors. she has not in the questionnaire forwarded to 2276 Jury Acts [ASSEMBLY] Amendment Bill

her, or at any time prior to her return of the The expression "family responsibility" has questionnaire, advised the Sheriff of her been defined to mean that obligation to which desire to claim exemption. the prospective juror or summoned juror in question is subject which­ Mr. Bennett: Then she can still claim it after she receives the summons? (a) requires his presence elsewhere than at the court in question for the purpose of Dr. DELAMOTHE: No. caring for the day-to-day needs of any person resident in the place of abode of A female juror who is required to obey a such juror, or for such needs of any other jury summons but nevertheless desires not person where such care is provided other­ to serve as a juror is not entitled to be wise than under a contract or arrangement exempted from service by a simple written which requires payment or reward to be notification, but is required under the Bill made or given therefor; and to claim excusal in the normal way. (b) in the opinion of the Sneriff reason­ The scheme for summoning jurors, which ably prevents such juror from attendance originated from the English report previously at the court as a juror. referred to, is straightforward, easy to work, To avoid any allegation that a jury has been simple to understand and economical in "packed", the Sheriff, as at present, will be administration. Although the proposed required to produce to the court all forms scheme is particularly desirable in its appli­ of questionaires returned to him by pros­ cation to females, it will apply to both sexes pective jurors, all applications received by and I am sure will save a great deal of him from persons asking to be excused from public time, and minimise the embarrass­ attendance and any correspondence or other ment, which under the present system, is documents relating to such applications, as caused to people in ill health or elderly well as the Sheriff's reasons for excusing any people. person who has made application in that In addition to the present procedure for regard. the service of a jury summons, a notice and The court will still retain the power of form of questionnaire may be given to the excusing any person whom the Sheriff has person to whom it is directed and the refused to excuse. However, it is envisaged summons may be served upon that person that the number of applications to the court by post. The use of the postal provisions as will show a significant reduction, with the an alternative means of serving notices, saving of time and expense if the question­ questionnaires ·and summonses will add to naire is used with generous common sense. the efficient administration of the proposed An additional power is to be given to the scheme. Sheriff to issue a certificate of excusal, which A minor but important by-product of the will remain in force for the period specified postal procedure will be the elimination of in the certificate, to any person excused by the Sheriff from attending at a sittings whose the police from any connection wit:1 the ser­ reason the Sheriff considers will continue vice of a jury summons, which has been beyond the expiration of the sittings of the subject to criticism for a long period. court. A similar power will be given to the As has been mentioned earlier, a generous court, and the court will exercise this power use of the Sheriff's power to excuse persons by directing the Sheriff to issue, in appropriate from attendance as jurors will be needed. cases, a certificate of excusal. The certificate Accordingly, the present power of the of excusal will permit of persons such as those Sheriff to excuse jurors has been altered to who have physical or mental handicaps to be allow him to excuse any person to whom a permanently excused from jury service. notice and questionnaire has been directed The court before which any female person or who has been summoned to attend as a is summoned as a juror may upon application juror where he is of the opinion that such excuse her from attendance during a person­ particular trial by reason of the issues to be (a) has not received a notice; or tried or the nature of the evidence likely to be given. This power is presently exercised (b) cannot be served with such by the Sheriff, but it is considered that the summons; or court is in a better position to deal with any (c) is unable to attend at the court by application relating to the issues before, or reason of illness, any medical reason, or the evidence likely to be given at, that court. family responsibility; or In most cases the nature of the evidence likely to be given at a trial can be gathered (d) has not an adequate knowledge of as the preliminary hearing relating to that the English language; or trial is made public. (e) is not qualified and liable to serve In relation to the proportion of women to as a juror or is otherwise entitled to be be included on jury panels, the English report excused from attendance as a juror; or previously referred to contains the (f) should be excused from attendance following statement­ as a juror for good cause and has indi­ "The present provisions as to the propor­ cated in the questionnaire that he wishes to tion of women on each panel are desirable be so excused or has otherwise applied in while the proportion of women who are writing to be so excused. qualified is so small, but we recommend Jury Acts [21 FEBRUARY] Amendment Bill 2277

that the requirement should be repealed England. Their new Criminal Justice Bill once the basic qualification becomes the provides for majority verdicts in criminal possession of the parliamentary vote. This trials. will mean that there will be approximately equal numbers of men and women liable Mr. Bennett: Did you say you intended to serve, and any panel selected at random to introduce majority verdicts? is likely to reflect this position. No doubt Dr. DELAMOTHE: No. some panels will contain a preponderance of one sex, but it seems to us that this Describing the majority-verdict pro­ is of no importance. It is inherent in our vision as the most important in the Criminal approach to the problem of qualifications Justice Bill, the Home Secretary said that it that there is to be no discrimination had been introduced "because of disturbing between the sexes, and to recommend the recent evidence of criminal interference with retention of special provisions as to the one or two jurymen in important cases. proportion of women to be empanelled Where such interference, which may take would in our view suggest, quite wrongly, the form of either bribery or intimidation, that the position of women in respect of has occurred, it has mostly been in cases jury service will continue to be different affecting the back-room men of crime-the from that of men." criminals who organise other criminals and are often most difficult for the police to get It is proposed that there shall be no prescribed at ...". proportion of females to males on any jury and that the actual number of males to I should like to read a short extract and females serving on a jury shall result from quote a few figures on this point. The Chief the application of the normal process of Constable of Leicester has calculated that selecting the panel and, subsequently, the in the Midlands the acquittal rate by juries actual jury. was 39 per cent. in 1963 and 36 per cent. in 1964. In the Central Criminal Court, The Bar Association has offered no London, in 1965 there was a 31 per cent. criticism of the Bill. acquittal rate. In 1964, in the County of Although the 1967 annual electoral rolls London Sessions, the figure was 35 per cent. are in the process of being printed, it is of Continuing with the Home Secretary's interest to inform the Committee that the remarks, "Even so, I would not have thought existing annual jury list of Brisbane comprises it right to make the change had I believed 73,244 males and 107 females out of 170,000 that there was danger of it damaging the males and 191,000 females whose names innocent as well as catching the guilty. But appear on the electoral roll for the metro­ I do not believe that that will happen. The politan area. Only 3,000 to 4,000 of the Scots have long applied a system of simple 73,000-odd appearing on the annual jury majority verdicts without such consequences". list for Brisbane will be liable for jury service for the 1966-67 jury year, the last The Annual Home Office criminal statistics year of wholly-male juries. By including are silent as to the actual operation ot the on the list all women liable and qualified, jury system in England, but in spite of this and allowing for the same conditions for it has been said that there is growing up a men and women, the chance of being drawn general feeling that too many defendants are will be a long one. being acquitted and that a change to majority verdicts will arrest this tendency. The Regarding the compulsory nature of jury number of acquittals in Queensland courts service, it is true that it is compulsory to cannot be regarded by any means as being enrol at 21 on the electoral roll and voting comparable to those in England. The intro­ is compulsory, but the Electoral Act provides duction of majority verdicts in Queensland several escape provisions. So, too, the Jury on this ground alone cannot be supported. Act provides several avenues of escape. It has been suggested that the only way in The monetary remuneration for jury ser­ which the change to majority verdicts could vice is the same for both sexes. For each affect the number of acquittals in English day or part of a day on which a juror is courts would be if one were to accept that empanelled on a criminal trial, or for the it is possible that some of the present trial of a civil action or proceeding, a pay­ acquittals are due to one or two perverse ment of $8 is made. A juror who or corrupt jurors being able to persuade 10 attends a court but who is not empanelled or 11 other jurors who are sure of the on a criminal trial, or for the trial of a civil defendant's guilt to return a verdict of not action or proceeding, is paid an allowance guilty. of $4 for each day's attendance. However, if the juror satisfies the Sheriff that he has Whether such fundamental changes in the been caused actual financial loss in excess of structure of British justice might be for the $4 a day by reason of his attendance the better or the worse is impossible to decide. amount of such loss, not exceeding $8 a day, At best, one can only, at this stage, hazard is to be paid to the juror in place of the a guess. Whether it is justifiable, in the amount of $4. absence of thorough research or inquiry, to emasculate the process which has been The time-honoured principle of jury regarded as part of the history of the English­ unanimity is about to be abandoned in speaking people, is at least questionable. 2278 Jury Acts [ASSEMBLY] Amendment Bill

Majority verdicts will not be introduced in The Minister began by suggesting, in giving Queensland at this stage. Experience may details of the Bill, that juries were the basis raise the question again. of our democratic way of trial. His defini­ The legislation of the other States of the tion of an acceptable juror as a person Commonwealth and elsewhere dealing with between the ages of 21 and 65, of good majority verdicts has been examined and, fame and fortune, was most appropriate. Of after careful consideration, the introduction course, I think that we in Australia have to of majority verdicts in Queensland has been guard jealously our jury system. With all rejected. its weaknesses and the probabilities and pos­ sibilities of innocent people being found It will be appreciated that removal of guilty and punished and guilty ones being the restrictions imposed upon women jurors let off, I do not know of any other method will present difficulties, and perhaps the used in other parts of the world that has its greatest of these will relate to accommodation advantages. The Minister can therefore be and other amenities for women jurors. For assured that the Opposition will look very this reason the provisions of the Bill which carefully at any amendments to the system give equality to women for the purposes of to make sure that it is improved and not the basic qualifications for jury service are allowed to deteriorate. expressed to come into operation within each jury district upon a date to be fixed for At the second-reading stage, or in his that district by the Governor in Council. reply, there are a few points that I should like the Minister to refer to. He suggested Hon. members will, I feel sure, agree that a jury should be an adult cross-section with me that it is necessary to have on a of the community. He stressed that point jury men and women who will bring common on a number of occa-sions, and with it I sense to their task of exercising judgment, quite agree. At present, however, the Act who have knowledge of the ways of the excludes from jury service many people in world and of the ways of human beings, and, the community. There may be some very above all, who will strive to come to an good reason why this is so. For instance, honest conclusion in regard to the issues members of the Executive Council are which are for them to decide. excluded. I do not think that that requires I commend the Bill to the Committee. any explanation. Also excluded are judges, members of the Land Court, and naturally, Mr. HOUSTON (Bulimba-Leader of the barristers-at-law who may be practising in Opposition) (4.32 p.m.): The Opposition has the case concerned or appeals or similar great interest in the introduction of this proceedings. Many other people are excluded, legislation, which has received a good deal such as managers and other officers of banks; of publicity, firstly about what the Govern­ salaried officers of hospitals and asylums; ment intended to do on a previous occasion and mining managers and engine-drivers. I and the problems associated with it, and should like to know why these exemptions secondly about what the Minister had in are permitted to remain in the amended Act, mind. although I am not suggesting at this stage that they ·should be excluded. As the Minis­ The Minister's introduction could be ter has now opened the whole field of jury divided into three separate parts. He gave service with its extension to women, I feel a history of the jury system and how it was constituted and why there are 12 jurors. that these other matters should also be looked His remarks were very enlightening. He at by the Government. If this measure is then made clear that the Bill was intro­ to be debated from all angles, I believe that duced because he believed there should be we should have all this information at our no discrimination against women, and he disposal. spent some considerable time telling us why At present, of course, women can apply there should not be. Then he proceeded to to serve on juries. It is now proposed to give details, and told us of many discrimina­ allow them not to serve on juries. If, on tory sections that will be retained. the basis of discrimination, there is any great difference between those situations, the Minis­ When the Minister was giving a history of ter may perhaps be able to further enlighten the jury system and saying that there should the Committee. be no discrimination, knowing him, I started to wonder when the punch would come. He Another matter to which I feel the Minister left it until his final remarks, when he said could give more attention is the age limits that there will still be some discrimination. of 60 and 65 years. It is true, of course, The Opposition will look at the matter care­ that women receive the age pension at 60 fully before coming to a final decision. and men at 65. I certainly would not like to -see that provision altered. A man is in The Bill requires a good deal of considera­ many cases a few years older than his wife, tion, so we will support its introduction. A and it would be wrong to suggest that when detailed analysis of it and its association with a man became entitled to the pension his other aspects of the Jury Act can be made wife should not also be allowed to apply at the second-reading stage and in Com­ for, and receive, it. I do not think it logical mittee. It will be necessary to look at the that a woman of 60 years of age, or possibility of one section tying in with approaching it, particularly one who has not another. worked for quite a number of years, should Jury Acts [21 FEBRUARY] Amendment Bill 2279

be required to seek employment. The skills granted to a man because of his sex was that she had earlier may have diminished automatically denied to a woman because of considerably through lack of use. However, her sex unless she specifically asked for it. I cannot see that the ability to dissect truth Today we are participating in a forward from fiction and make a sound judgment move, one that at last rights a wrong and on evidence is any different in a woman of confers upon women to a far greater degree 60 than it is in a man of 65. There have their proper responsibilities and obligations been instances in which women of 60 have as citizens. It is indeed a commendable move. put forward proposals and made sound The emancipation of women can be described decisions for the benefit of mankind. On as a continuing process. There are those who the other hand, as all hon. members know, say otherwise, but my view is that it is not some men of 65 have seen better days. As yet completed. The move today is another jury service, not work in other fields, is under step along the road to emancipation. consideration, the Minister might enlighten the House why there is discrimination In more recent times, we can say that the between 60 and 65 years of age. Married Women's Property Act of 1890 was the first Act that started to recognise I am not clear in my understanding of the woman's rights in her own right. The suf­ provision relating to the Sheriff's communi­ fragette movement during the Great War cating with jurors. Perhaps I misinterpreted resulted in the franchise being extended to the terms used by the Minister; I am not a women, and in many ways, because of member of the legal profession. I understand woman's own initiative and agitation, greater that the Sheriff will send out questionnaires rights have been given to her and she moves to only 80 people at the one time. On the slowly but surely towards complete equality other hand, the Minister suggested that the jury Jist will contain 3,000 names for the in a society which asks her to accept both its year. There is a great difference, of course, privileges and its obligations. between communicating with 80 and com­ There are, of course, reservations about municating with 3,000. Unless the final list this move now being made. Many do not is compiled at the one time before the jurors believe women should be granted this equal are required, surely there will still be a delay. right to serve on juries. One is forced to The last point on which I should like admit that some of this attitude is motivated information from the Minister is on the $8 by selfishness and possibly ego on the part a day for service on a jury. I think it is true of men who see their own way of life inter­ to say that there are not many people today rupted a little, and by the fact that there whose average income is less than $40 a still exists to some extent the outmoded Vic­ week. I know that the basic wage is still torian nonsense about protection of women. below that, and I am aware that many people Some who argue against women serving on in the community receive an income lower juries are often motivated by a mode of than that which we desire they should receive. thinking which once and for all must be dis­ In my opinion, to ask a person to serve on a pensed with. jury for $8 a day in these days of high costs Over the past 20 or 30 years women, of is rather foolish. If my memory serves me their own right, have emerged and entered correctly-! do not wish to criticise the legal into professions that were once considered profession at this stage-the Minister recently the sole province of men. They have brought down an Order in Council that accepted their professions and acquitted increased the rate for a solicitor in attendance themselves as well as men. I venture to say at court to $10.60 an hour. If a solicitor there would be very few men in this receives that amount, surely a juror who is Chamber today who would dare reflect on one of 12 on a criminal jury or one of four the capacity or the ability of the hon. member on a civil jury should not have to sit there for Ipswich West in her representation of her for $8 a day. I suggest that the Minister electorate. should give hon. members a more detailed explanation on that point. Women served with distinction in the war effort and in doing so they were exposed to I assure the Minister for Justice that we the realities of life and won their place in will consider the Bill carefully and give him the enlightened society in which we Jive. the Opposition's opinion of it at the second­ More and more as society changes we come reading stage. to the conclusion that the protection that we once wanted to afford to women is now Mr. W. D. HEWITT (Chatsworth) (4.44 p.m.): It was in 1923 that the Queensland unnecessary, and because we afford her these State Parliament introduced a measure to new rights there is no evidence at all to sug­ allow women to serve on juries. Indeed, in gest that there will be less femininity or taking that move, the State of Queensland graciousness. pioneered the admission of women to jury We should ponder for a while upon the service. Unfortunately, the limitation was society in which we now live. It is a dif­ placed on women that they had to opt in, ferent society. This is an age when such and that condition has applied over the years issues as abortion are discussed openly in since then. Today, 44 years later, we are popular journals; this is an age when fre­ removing the implied insult of second-rate quently we can read frank evidence of rape citizenship that has been paid to women for attacks. This is an age when a sodomy case that length of time. A right automatically was discussed with such frankness that one

2282 Jury Acts [ASSEMBLY] Amendment Bill panel. She was a young woman of present­ I believe that if only one section of the able appearance who seemed to have all the female community is to serve on ju~ies~ it qualifications necessary to allow her to serve will not be in the best interests of JUStice. on a jury. I was quite happy to have her I preface my remarks by saying that I an1 there. But what happened? She complained wholeheartedly in accord with ~he rem~val about being called in and said that she had of discrimination of every kmd agamst no knowledge why she was. On the first day, women. The present proposal, however, pre­ she asked the judge to excuse her, and she serves the so-called discrimination that the was excused. That is experience. Although Government now claims is in the Act. There are in the community people like Gabriel!e 13 per cent. had written in, many others Horan who according to her utterances m would decide to ask to be exempted when the Press, i~ willing to serve on juries. they were specifically called in. Very often they do not bother to waste an envelope and Mr. Walsh: Why doesn't she volunteer? stamp unless it is necessary. Mr. BENNETT: So far as I know, she has Menfolk are obliged to serve unless they not volunteered. She says that she is willing are engaged in certain occupations or have a to serve. Although this does not apply to very good reason to be excused. If there is all women there are those in her category to be equality of sexes, and discrimination is who are ~ot altogether desirable types to to be removed, women must be obliged to serve on juries. Only recently she passed serve unless they have the same excuse as men, because otherwise we will get on juries judgment on a fellow public woman, name!y, only women who consent to serve. It does Alderman Petrone] White, who served With not matter how the Bill is framed, the result me for many years in the Brisbane C!tY will be the same as under existing legislation, Council and who, in my opinion, served w1th namely, only those who consent will serve. distinction and success. She devoted a large Make no bones about that. Is it in the best number of her working years to the public interests of justice when only the women who life of Brisbane, and she did so efficien~ly, consent to serve will be required to serve? loyally, and faithfully. She is now reachmg Is that good and fair to everybody who is the twilight of her career, and she. announc~d called upon to practise in the courts, and her retirement and did not nommate agam more particularly to those called upon to as a candidate at the Brisbane City C~u~cil answer a charge in the courts? election. Because the Citizens' Mumc1pal Organisation did not select another W?m~n The Minister referred to questions being to take her place, Gabrielle Horan said, m asked by an "attractive young hairdresser" an unfair judicial observation on Alderman who was serving on a jury in the South. I Petrone] White that the C.M.O. must have do not know whether her remarks were more considered her'a failure. If this is the type intelligent because of her attractiveness. of judgment given by leading ladies in the Whether she was or was not attractive had community, we are not going to be blessed nothing to do with her service on the jury. with judicial decisions from them when they A jury woman who is older and not blessed serve on juries. However, I do concede that with good looks can serve on a jury just they would not all be in this category or as conscientiously and well as any attractive come to such unfair conclusions. woman. Attractiveness has nothing to do I am pleased to hear that there is .a pro­ with the matter. After all, in our courts posal in the Bill to eliminate the s~rV1<:es of we have competent Crown prosecutors and policemen in the serving on prospective Juro~s defence counsel, and we do not need another of summonses to attend court. No dc;mbt th1s 12 Crown prosecutors and 12 defence counsel is the result of my submissions on junes ~hen to ask questions and delay trials. In our I last spoke on this subject. I a:n gratified system there is a foreman of the jury who that the Minister has taken notice of my can ask questions on behalf of the jury if remarks on that occasion. they are in a state of confusion on any point. The function of a jury is not to take over There is only one other point that I wish from the Crown prosecutor or defence to make in relation to jury seryice. and the counsel and delay the trial by asking ques­ role that the police play in gettmg JUrors. to tions that are very often inadmissible at law court. In deciding whether a prospectJ':'e anyway. I hope the precedent set by this juror is of good fame and repute, the Shenff so-called attractive young hairdresser does sends the list to the Police Department befc:re not become established, thus encouraging the beginning of the legal year, and the Police young, attractive women to come in and Department in fact decides whether a pros­ entertain some of the old fuddy-duddy judges pective juror is of good fame and. repute. and delay trials and cause defendants added The department does not have to gJVe any expense. reason for its decision. It says "Yes" or "No" and if it says "No" the man is auto­ Mr. Aikens: Which judges do you call matic'ally removed from the list and has no "fuddy-duddies"? chance of being summoned under..any circumstances. I wonder whether the Mm1ster Mr. BENNETT: For the benefit of the proposes to make any amendment to th_e hon. member for Townsville South, this did procedure of ascertaining whether a man IS not happen before a Queensland judge. of good fame and repute. Jury Acts [21 FEBRUARY] Amendment Bill 2283

Inci,Jentally, I think the Minister should I think the hon. member for Windsor would tell us whether or not he proposes g1vmg be a good Attorney-General, but I will agree a copy of the answers to the questionnaire that the present incumbent of the office is to counsel for the defence for use in selecting a smooth operator in the field of politics. the jury panel. I know that Crown pro­ He can introduce matters of a political nature secutors, particularly the senior Crown and perhaps pull the wool over the eyes of prosecutor, have dossiers on jurymen. A the people of Queensland. In this case he is Crown prosecutor knows whether a man has attempting to induce the female members of been convicted of the slighest traffic offence the community to believe that a big change and whether he has any other convictions. is being made when in fact it is only a play He even knows whether a person has tickets on words. for speeding or for being caught in a radar speed trap. Of course, he uses his knowledge The hon. member for Chatsworth spoke accordingly when exercising his right to call about the increase in crime and the changing ·'Stand by". If it is proposed to arm the age in which we live. What he said is true. Crown prosecutors with that information and I feel that when a mother has children her the answers to the questionnaire form, I primary obligation is to be at home when think it is only right and proper that defence they return from school to give them love counse! should be provided with the same and affection rather than to be sitting in evidence and ammunition. a court hoping to be called on a jury. How­ ever, that is a matter for the women and I This is perhaps a mundane observation to feel that the Minister has not tested the feeling make on the proposal now before the Com­ of the large majority of women in this matter. mittee, but it is certainly a practical and If the discrimination is to be removed-if very pressing one. Judges will tell you, Mr. it is regarded as discrimination-then it Hooper, I will tell you, and jurymen will should be removed promptly and efficiently. tell you, that if women are to sit on juries and work in the jury section of our courts, My Leader, whose remarks I support, has they will need to have extraordinarily good said that we will examine the Bill closely in bladders. There is not one toilet for them order to see whether or not all discrimina­ to use; in fact, there is not one toilet for tions relative to the matters involved have women in any of the sections set aside for been removed. It would seem from the juries in the courts constructed in Brisbane. remarks of the Minister that that is not so. The Minister must have changed his attitude There is a retention of discrimination radically since the joint-party Caucus con­ between men and women so far as the age sidered this question, because in the District difference for jury service is concerned. The Court block that was constructed recently Minister might be more qualified in the there is not one toilet for women jurors, and medical field than in the legal field, but he the work cost about $206,000. got onto the medical side when he was The Criminal Code says that when a speaking about women who cannot serve jury is empanelled it cannot be separated, after 60. He said they go blind, they cannot unless on the order of the judge. hear, their mental faculties are dulled, yet he says that men can continue to serve until Mr. Murray: This is equality now being exercised. the reach the age of 65. Is the Minister again speaking as a politician Mr. BENNETT: Perhaps the Minister will or as a doctor when he says there is a marked show hon. members just how far equality inequality between men and women after will go in the jury accommodation where they reach the age of 60? If he is not, I there is only one toilet. should like to hear his observations on what Mr. Murray: The fact that there is a my Leader said about the qualifications of biological difference is not taken into women for service on juries until they reach consideration. the age of 65. Another aspect of the service of men and Mr. BENNETT: Perhaps that is not being women, of course, lies in the fact that a man taken into consideration. As far as I can with a conviction cannot possibly serve on a see, there is no possibility of making any jury. Obviously the Sheriff would have to correction in the existing structures, and the say, as he does, that that man is not of good big hole next to the Supreme Court has lain fame and repute. A young teenage boy idle, other than having water pumped from who has been convicted of having unlawful it, for 12 months. It was dug last Christmas carnal knowledge of a girl carries that con­ 12 months, allegedly for the construction of viction for the rest of his life and can never new courts, but hardly a sod has been turned serve on a jury. The girl with whom he since. It seems unlikely, therefore, that commits the offence-incidentally with her accommodation in the new courts will be consent because consent does not matter­ ready to receive women jurors. can serve, according to the Minister's pro­ If discrimination against women is to be posal, on any number of juries whatever, removed in this instance, I suggest that dis­ because her part in the particular offence crimination should be removed from other will not be recorded anywhere. I draw Acts. For instance, under the Maintenance attention to that as only one of the various Act a man has to pay the costs whether he types of offence in which some inequality wins or loses or the case is withdrawn. will be preserved. 2284 Jury Acts [ASSEMBLY] Amendment Bill

The Minister has given one example in that The Minister referred to the point of the wives of those who practise in the courts whether or not, when a married woman is will be automatically exempted from jury put on the roll, her husband's occupation service. I do not know why that should be. should be shown. I feel, of course, that in Is he again saying that because they are the most instances the husband's occupation would be quite manifest from an intelligent wives of members of a section of the com­ reading of the roll. By the same token, I munity they, as women, will be non-judicial, know from the canvasses I do-l do a great unfair, or biased? I certainly believe that number from time to time-that many they should not serve in cases in which their married women who work do not show their husbands are appearing or acting because one occupation as "housewife", even though they could expect them to be biased; they would are living quite happily with their husbands. not be very loyal if it was any other way. Very often they show their paid occupation, But in a court in which their husbands are and one would not know whether they were not appearing, is there any reason why such married or not. wives should be unreasonable, unfair, or (Time expired.) partial because of their husbands' occupation? The Minister says that women will be Mr. PORTER (Toowong) (5.23 p.m.): I called on according to their occupations on support this measure, but I stress that I give the roll, and posed the question whether or it lukewarm support. I believe it to be one not the husband's occupations should be in respect of which the great majority of shown. Incidentally, seeing that the Minister women will say to the Government, "Thank and the hon. member for Chatsworth said you for very little". The Bill does not alter that we are living in a changing world­ the present system very much, as the hon. which is true, and has been brought about member for South Brisbane pointed out. It by certain facets of our own organisation in simply says to the minority of women who society-what are we going to do about the want this equality-a word which has been vast army of de factos? Are we going to used a lot today-"You have got it. You exempt or exclude them from service in the don't have to ask for it ...." But it administration of justice because they happen says to the great majority who do not want to be de factos? it, "You have to say that you don't want it." If that is a form of equality I am very I hope that the Minister does not slavishly doubtful as to its real merits. follow some of the practices adopted in recent years in England by way of law I am afraid that there is a great tendency reform. For one thing England proposes in democracy today for Governments to to legalise sodomy, an offence which has tan react to the pressures of militant bodies, adverse effect on the moral fibre of the although perhaps "militant" is not the right country. Is the Minister going to slavishly word. It has some unsavoury implications. follow that? In England it is al&o intended Perhaps I should refer to them as "organised" to introduce divorce by consent after the associations. I have done as much inquir­ married couple have lived together for three ing as I can on this subject, and months. This will make it much easier to it is my view that the great majority of break the bonds of matrimony. Let us hope women do not want to serve on juries. Some that the Minister does not plan to blindly will do it if required, but very few want follow the law reforms adopted in England. to do it. The great majority of women do Because sodomy is rampant in that country not want to serve on juries at all. Indeed, and the authorities there intend to legalise it, their notions of equality with men are it does not necessarily follow that we should vastly different from the notions that are introduce the same type of legislation in this promulgated by feminine organisations. country. My main quarrel with this legislation is In his earlier remarks the Minister that women, for their own good, must have referred to majority verdicts of juries. I am forced on them equality with men. I do not glad he explained the reason why it is except my good friend the hon. member for unnecessary to follow England in that regard. Chatsworth from this category. To my idea, To some extent the jury system over there whoever peddles this notion actually makes had been corrupted and that is why they a very bad attack on women because in fact­ propose to accept majority verdicts. Our and I say this quite seriously-in many juries here have stood the test of time, as respects women are superior to men. They they did in England for centuries, until have many capacities that are superior to recently. Our jury system is working satis­ men's capacities in the same field. To suggest factorily and well. I do not think anybody that we should reduce women to the level of in the practise of the legal profession or in men is a very silly notion. It is very much parliamentary circles has ever heard of any like the economist who tries to draw a attempt at corruption here. What has stood straight line from an unjustifiable assumption the test of time and has worked satisfactorily to an unwarrantable conclusion. The same should be preserved rather than that we principle applies in this proposition. We start should rush in with a change adopted else­ with an assumption that is totally unjustified, where for reasons that do not particularly namely, that women require equality with apply in Queensland. men. Then, from that point, we run riot with Jury Acts (21 FEBRUARY] Amendment Bill 2285

all kinds of non sequiturs. If we assume directed at giving them what men have. that women are inferior we do them a great Whatever it is that we have and that we disservice. should give them, I would not know. If we start with any legislative notions that The point is that men and women are men and women are two totally separate together a complete unit and all our aims in sexes and will always be separate, that they this legislature and in any other avenue in run life's race for particular prizes and that which we are interested should lead towards neither one must advance against the other fostering the notion that rather than seek a in trying to secure the prizes, I think we do sort of separateness we should be seeking the an enormous amount of damage to our social means by which men and women can achieve fabric. In what race are the sexes competing an enduring unity which provides a safe and against each other? For what prizes are they secure marriage. It is only by providing and competing against each other? reinforcing the structure of society where Equality has become a word imbued with men and women recognise their inter­ all sorts of mystic meanings. It is a catch-all dependent roles that we will preserve and to !ilold any ideas that anyone riding a secure that system of marriage and family hobby-horse wants to cram into it. Equality life which is the basis of our civilisation. has become a euphemism for a whole host of so-called progressive catch-cries which in So I support this measure as a compromise fact do very little indeed to advance the true between rejection of a previous proposal and cause of women's welfare. It cuts both ways. a way out in view of the pressures that ask for It is so ridiculous. If women demand equality this. I support it, but I am not an enthusiast with men, why should not men demand in the same sense as my colleague the bon. equality with women? If we are to regard member for Chatsworth. them as the same, this is how it would work Mr. AIKENS (Townsville South) (5 .31 out: I do not know of any vacancies any­ p.m.): I have never listened to a more super­ where for bare-top waiters or anything in ficial speech than that delivered by the bon. that category. member for Toowong. He missed the vital The suggestion of my colleague that the principle in this Bill. I would say as a student presence of the bon. member for Ipswich of history that the proudest boast ever made West in this Chamber is a fine example of by any race that has inhabited this earth was the equality of women is just a lot of that made by the Romans from one end of nonsense. The bon. member is not here as a the Roman Empire to the other, namely, woman, any more than we are here as men. "Civis Romanus Sum", which means "I am She is here as a member of Parliament and her a citizen of Rome". I think it is about time sex is quite incidental to it. It has nothing that we asked everyone in the State of whatever to do with it. I cannot see how it Queensland to make the proud boast "Civis can be suggested that this is in some way Queenslandus Sum", which means "I am a bolstering the argument in the cause for citizen of Queensland". forcing so-called equality with men. It is quite true, as the hon. member for Another matter that we must bear in mind Toowong said, that there is a biological dif­ in this dangerous tactic of forcing equality ference between men and women-at least I on women is to remember what will inevit­ have been told so and I am prepared to ably follow, because every force generates an believe it-and it is quite true also that they opposing counter-force. If women, or a small should retain all the differences biologically, number of women, take unto themselves the psychologically, and otherwise and still remain right to speak for the great host of women what they should be, that is, citizens of who are not vocal, if women are seeking Queensland, and face up to their responsibili­ from men more and more so-called equality, ties as citizens of Queensland. what is the inevitable result? They will be Mr. Lickiss: Were women given full citizen­ treated less and less as women. That is what ship in Rome? has been happening for the last 10, 20 or 30 years. Goodbye to chivalry, courtesy, good Mr. AIKENS: Yes. If the hon. member manners and consideration. The whole lot of for Mt. Coot-tha cares to read works on them go because there is no difference Rome at that time written by Romans-he between the sexes. Are we to finish up with will not get that information from the pages women sweeping the roads, breaking stones, of the Brisbane "Telegraph" or "Sunday digging culverts out in the country with other Truth"--or if he goes to the Parliamentary road gangers, and so on? The bon. member Library and asks the assistants to the for Clayfield says that there is a biological Librarian for their help, he will get informa­ difference. Of course there is, thank heavens! tion to support my statement. The fact is that men and women are not The hon. member for Toowong, and to a in competition; they complement each other. lesser extent the hon. member for South To suggest that one is advantaged over the Brisbane, believe in the idea that a woman other because of sex and that this then needs should be a cross between an incubator and to be adjusted is to suggest that one-half of a domestic drudge, and, having performed a circle is better than the other half. I believe those two functions, all her services to the that it is fallacious to think of the sexes as mighty male should end and she should be being in some sort of major contest against happy that the mighty male has condescended each other, and that all our aims should be to treat her as a sort of chattel slave. 2286 Jury Acts [ASSEMBLY] Amendment Bill

This Bill proposes to amend the Jury Act. badgered, pestered, and insulted by either I ask the Committee seriously how long the counsel for the defence or the Crown. He jury system will last in Queensland, particu­ will be told to answer questions "Yes" or larly in criminal cases, when we have mem­ "No". He will be told, in effect, "Never bers of the judiciary, with alarming frequency, mind about wandering all over the place. taking cases away from the jury because they Never mind about telling the jury the whole decide there is no case to go to the jury, story so that they can reach a decision on arrogating to themselves the right to deter­ the whole of the facts". They will see that mine whether or not a case should be tried unfortunate witness leave the box absolutely by a jury. It is a cardinal principle of disgusted with and cynical of the legal system British justice that the facts of a case should as it operates in Queensland courts now. be put before a jury and that the jury should decide whether or not there is a case. But Mr. Smith interjected. today, with alarming frequency, judges are throwing the jury system overboard. Mr. AIKENS: I am not wrong about that, and no-one knows that better than the hon. I believe that there are no qualifications member for Windsor. If he wants to inter­ to equality. Either women are equal with ject, I will remind him that not long ago a men or they are, as the hon. members for judge rebuked him for hectoring a witness Toowong and South Brisbane suggest, inf~rior and he said, "But I am merely doing what to men. I do not believe that they are you did when you practised at the Bar". inferior to men. I do not believe that they That is the sort of thing that goes on. are superior to men in a general sense, although it is true that they have some Mr. SMITH: I rise to a point of order. special characteristics that are superior to The hon. member for Townsville South is those of men, and that their mental ratio­ accurate in many of his statements, but the cinations are superior to those of men. But one referring to me is quite inaccurate. It let us not quibble about this issue. Let us is offensive, and I ask him to withdraw it. regard the women of Queensland as citizens of Queensland, and give them every right The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. that is given to the mighty, arrogant, masculine citizens. member for Windsor has said that the state­ ment by the hon. member for Townsville I welcome this Bill. I welcome it sin­ South about him is inaccurate and he asks cerely indeed, because over the years in this that it be withdrawn. Parliament, from the public platform, and from everywhere else that I have had an Mr. AIKENS: In accordance with your opportunity to speak to the people, I have request, Mr. Hooper, I gladly withdraw it. deplored the degeneration and decay in the procedure in our various courts. That situ­ When women enter a jury box they will ation has been brought about by the legal see in cases of criminal charges on very fraternity. Whether judges have acquiesced serious, sometimes loathsome and detestable or not simply does not matter. I welcome offences, a veritable parade of doctors to the the fact that women are going to serve on witness box-doctors whose opinions are juries. When the hon. member for Toowong bought and sold by the prosecution and the says that most women do not want to serve defence. They will see doctor after doctor, on juries, individually and personally I sup­ each receiving a fee from the defence, swear pose that would be true. But let him also that the prisoner is not a criminal; that he is be honest and say that most men do not want an unfortunate sick person who should be to serve, either. If men had to volunteer sent to hospital and not to gaol. The hon. for jury service and give their names to a member for Clayfield raised the question of court official, I doubt if there would be as how judges are going to go, if they can, a many men volunteers as women. If the hon. little further and make all the excuses in the member wants to present a case, let him world. The jurors will then see doctors come present it factually and honestly. along one after the other and swear, for the prosecution, that the prisoner is sane and I welcome the appearance of women as responsible for his actions, and should go to jurors in courts, or in any other capacity. gaol. They will see the opinions of doctors When they go to the courts they will see how bought and sold in open court. They will justice in them today has been prostituted in see barristers lying, sometimes wittingly, to the interests of criminals and lawyers who judges. After a prisoner has been found represent them. guilty, they will see the barrister for the defence stand up- Mr. Smith: They can go there now. Mr. SMITH: Mr. Hooper-- Mr. AIKENS: But how many would go to the gallery and sit there in discomfort? Mr. AIKENS: Oh, sit down, you! When they enter the jury box, they will see a witness go to the box and be sworn to The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing member for Townsville South. If the hon. but the truth. They will then see him denied member for Windsor desires to rise to a point the opportunity to tell the whole truth and of order, the Chair will hear the point of nothing but the truth. They will see him order. Jury Acts [21 FEBRUARY] Amendment Bill 2287

Mr. SMITH: I rise to a point of order Crown Prosecutor deliberately running dead because the hon. member for Townsville in a criminal case, either of his own volition South has, by innuendo. slurred the profes­ or under instructions from someone higher sion of which I am member. up. They will see all these things. They will see a judge, who is in their opinion a judge Mr. AIKENS: If the cap fits, you can of the court, acting as a benign and amiable wear it. umpire between the prosecution and the defence, and if in the exercise of his power Mr. SMITH: The cap does not fit. I say the judge begins to cross-examine a witness, that the hon. member's remark is offensive, as he has a right to do, they will see the and I ask that it be withdrawn. barrister for the defence stand up and vitrio­ The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. mem­ lically attack the judge for doing so, as the ber for Townsville South. hon. member for South Brisbane did in Longreach recently when the judge began to Mr. AIKENS: I made no reference to the cross-examine a witness. All these things-­ hon. member. If he wants cases one after another-a dozen- I will give them to him, The CHAffiMAN: Order! If the hon. cases in which persons have been found member for Townsville South continues to guilty and the barrister for the defence has take that line, I will have no alternative but stood up and told the judge a tearful, lying to ask him to resume his seat. I shall be story about the incorrigible rogue who has very pleased if he will get back to the motion been found guilty by the jury. He has told before the Committee. the judge that this man loves his poor old mother and spends all his time going round Mr. AIKENS: I have now come to the doing what he can to help people. He tells a end of that point, Mr. Hooper, I thank you soul-searing story, knowing it to be untrue, for your tolerance in allowing ll!e to go so about the beautiful nature of the criminal, far. I mention those matters m order to and the judge says, as Judge Cormack said impress upon the Committee why I really in the District Court in Townsville not long welcome this measure. ago, "But for the submissions of the defence When this occurred in Great Britain-I counsel, I was going to send this man to have documents in my office to prove it­ gaol for a long term. Because of the story and women on juries saw these things going told to me by the counsel for the defence, on in court they went back and discussed Mr. Shanahan, I am only going to send the them privately and publicly and in the prisoner to gaol for three months". organisations to which they belonged. As a result, there was a move to clean up the Tbe CHAffiMAN: Order! I am afraid the court procedures in Great Britain and to ~o hon. member for Townsville South is getting away with the injustices that had crept m right away from the motion. I did allow and been fostered by the legal profession. I him to stray a little to tie his remarks in do not want to embarrass the Minister who with his argument that a jury was necessary. is bringing the Bill down, but he knows as However, he has got right away from that, well as I do that the Government of Great and I ask him to get back to the motion Britain as a result of the agitation of the before the Committee. women' who had served on juries and had Mr. AIKENS: I consider that to be a very seen these unsavoury things, said to the Bar wise ruling. I know, of course, that by a Association and the Law Society of Great good deal of application and a good deal Britain, "If you don't put your house in of study of the rules, orders and customs of order, we will put it in order for you". So this Chamber, Mr. Hooper, you have become these women, I think, will do a tremendous an expert. In fact, I would say that you public good by serving on juries, not only would be second only to me in that respect. by bringing a clear and unbiased mind to the consideration of cases before the courts, The CHAIRMAN: Order! but by going out after the cases have been heard and telling their women friends about Mr. AIKENS: When women go into the these things and discussing them in their jury box they will see the most pernicious various organisations. They will begin an practice of all, and I hope that the hon. agitation to really make our courts what member for Windsor is not going to deny they are not today, namely, courts of justice. that it takes place. They will see the jury­ men who have been squared or intimidated I do not want to deal further with the deliberately trying in the jury room to influ­ matter that you have ruled on, Mr. Hooper. I ence the other jurymen to bring in a favour­ did have a couple of other points I was g~ing able verdict. Surely the hon. member for to mention but, in deference to your rulmg, Windsor is not going to deny that he knows I will not do so. I should say that the all about squared or intimidated jurors. greatest task that faces us as legislators, if Surely he will not deny that a very prominent we claim honestly to be representatives of trade-union official in Townsville was con­ the ordinary people, is to clean up our victed recently of attempting to intimidate or court procedures and to make our courts square a juryman and fine a paltry £50 for not courts of law as they are today, and doing so. That is on record. The women in playthings of the legal profession as they the jury box will see on some occasions the are today, but really courts of justice. The 2288 Jury Acts [ASSEMBLY] Amendment Bill men have not done it. Men, of course, have I feel that a jury should be representative a very nonchalant attitude towards serving of the community as a whole and should on the jury. They receive their jury fees, bring into that representation no exceptions have a couple of beers, perhaps, after the as to politics, religion, race and/or sex. I trial, they may even discuss it with some feel that many of the arguments put forward of their friends, but they do not bring it up against women serving on juries have very at their union meetings; they do not bring little justifiable basis and have been argued it up at their lodge meetings; they do not from an incorrect premise. The thinking of bring these things up in any of the organisa­ another era and the prejudices of years gone tions to w~ich they belong. Consequently, by for too long have been the yardstick of all these thmgs that are really a disgrace to our attitudes towards women, not only in any democratic system have not only been this country but in many other countries maintained but have been exaggerated. throughout the world. This feeling and this trend are gradually altering, I am happy to I really believe that women will do the job. say. I really believe that after we have had women on juries in Queensland for 12 months we I feel that the Bill should refer to jurors will have the same agitation as they had in as people and citizens, and that no reference Great Britain about two years ago, and still should be made to any particular sex or age. have today. I feel that we should fight for complete equality. Perhaps "equity" would be the Mr. Smith: I wish they would come to better word. Parliament and clean you up. Some reference has been made this after­ Mr. AIKENS: There is a woman in Parlia­ noon to my presence in this Chamber and my ment and she probably could clean me up. rights as a woman. I entered this Parliament Luckily for me she has not decided to try, as a person, and I campaigned prior to my but God knows what would happen to the election as a person, but I do know from hon. member for Windsor if she ever trained personal experience that there is discrimina­ her guns on him. He would not have his tion in the community against women. I feel boot-laces left. that it is this discrimination which has led to apathy among women towards entering That is why I relish this Bill; that is why I politics or taking part in public life. think it is one of the most important measures that has ever been introduced into this I was very sorry to hear the hon. member Chamber-because it will give the women for Toowong say that women were seeking of Queensland an opportunity to see at first more rights from men. I am sure that he hand the way our court procedures have said this without realising it, and that he did degenerated and been allowed to decay. They it unconsciously. What he said indicates will see at first hand all the court useless and the basis on which many men think without snobbish procedures, all the flummery, all the realising it. I do not think that men as a mumbo-jumbo and all the denials of justice whole do this deliberately; it is a hangover to everybody who goes into the court. from another age. Many men unconsciously echo what they have come to accept as a way And so I say to the Minister for Justice of life. that I heartily congratulate him for intro­ ducing this measure. I know very well that In reply to some interjections, let me say he did it against the bitter and venemous that I am not here to "clean up" anyone on opposition of many members of the legal either side of the Chamber. Far be it from profession, and I say that one of the strongest me to adopt that attitude, even if I were arguments I know in favour of this measure strongly opposed to whatever any hon. mem­ is the fact that the Bar Association and ber might have to say. I feel that we all the Law Society oppose it. Anything that have something to contribute here and that ~hose two societies oppose is, in my opinion, we should devote our abilities and our time m the best interests of the people of to what takes place in this Parliament for Queensland. the benefit of the people of this State. I therefore do not waste time trying to "clean Mrs. .JORDAN (Ipswich West) (5.49 p.m.): up" anyone in this Chamber on a personal I welcome the fact that the Government and basis. the Minister have introduced this legislation The argument that women have to be pro­ and have brought this very important matter tected from the sordid things which come up of jury service for women and jury service in some cases before juries is pure poppy­ as a whole before Parliament for debate. cock. The so-called protection of the "little woman" is quite a smokescreen really in this The Bill seeks to treat women as people day and age, particularly when one reads so and citizens and would also appear to follow oHen in the daily Press of the dreadful things the pattern of recognition of women's abilities that are happening in our midst. To say that and women's common sense which has been women do not want to serve on juries is too set in many countries of the world, and, sweeping a statement, and is no reason why in relation to jury service in particular, in they should not be asked to serve. Of course, three States of Australia as well. many women do not want to serve on juries, Jury Acts [21 FEBRUARY] Amendment Bill 2289 just as many men do not want to serve on of the number who agreed with jury service juries. We all know that many men do not for women. As the Minister told us, three want to serve, and we also know that many Australian States have already introduced women, because of female responsibilities, jury service for women, Western Australia would not be able to. Thinking women and being the first. I was pleased to hear the organised women want to play their part in Minister 1and other hon. members say that in our community and they believe that jury those three States jury service for women is service is part of community service. working smoothly. In the Governor's Speech at the opening of Parliament he spoke of this Bill to I hope that this Bill will be another step introduce jury service for il'omen in Queens­ whereby Queensland will not lag behind land but, for some reason or other, it was other States in treating women as adults. deferred. I am happy that it is now being We have discrimination in relation to equal debated. Apptarently the Bill has been fairly pay, and the marriage bar still exists in some successful in getting around some of the places. I hope that this Bill will be a lead problems that will be involved, particularly in removing other types of discrimination in relation to women who have family com­ against women. Jury service is a social mitments. The fact that women have two duty as well as a right, and until such time chances to opt out, whereas before they had as women are selected on the same basis as to register, will give women whose commit­ men, the democratic concept of equal citizen­ ments will not allow them to serve an oppor­ ship is simply a mockery. Women have just tunity to serve at a later time. It will also as much common sense and ability as men provide 1an opportunity for those women and can be equally objective. The relatively whose mental attitude will not allow them to small number of women volunteers in serve on juries. Queensland does not signify a basic difference in attitude between men and women in As to the former method under which respect to serving on juries. Should men also women had to register, many women would be selected from volunteers only, it is likely not register on principle. They believed that that the requirements for jurors would not be if men did not have to register women also met. It is further pointed out that there are should not have to register; that there should women who, while they would be quite pre­ be complete equality as to sex in this regard. pared to serve on juries, as I said before, will not volunteer, and I do not feel that The C.W.A.. one of the largest women's anyone, male or female, should have to organisations, has the same feelings and has volunteer; it is a social duty of us all as advised its members to contact their local people and as citizens. members of Parliament and tell them that they wanted jury service for women but did It has been argued seriously by some not believe that they should have to register. that women are not suited to jury The same attitude was adopted by the Status service for reasons such as that women of Women Committee, by the National are more likely to be subject to Council of Women, by the Equal Oppor­ emotions than men, or even that male tunities for Women Association and by my jurors may be inhibited from expressing their own fellow members of the A.L.P. Indeed, frank opinions in the presence of female the matter of women serving on juries is in jurors. Again I repeat that this thinking the policy of the Australian Labour Party belongs to another era. Women have proved and has been there since the Townsville that they can take their places, that they can Labour-in-Politics Convention. reason, and that they can weigh up all the facts. Indeed, in the home, as many men It is small wonder that registrations were low when we realise how women were dis­ will admit, the woman takes the leading couraged from registering. Quite a number part and makes most of the decisions, and of them who tried to register were dis­ the husband in the main takes her advice. couraged at the Electoral Office. The excuse He is like a lost sheep without her. has been proffered to women who have tried Mr. Hughes: What you are saying is that to register that no forms were available. the road to success is full of men being Whether it was by accident or design I pushed along by women. should not like to say, but I do know a number of young women from the university Mrs. JORDAN: I have heard many a who tried to register last year but were politician say that he owes his election to unable to do so because of a lack of forms. the help of his wife, and I feel that my Also, in the case of one young woman who election, and the fact I am able to come on one occasion picked up a number of here and participate in Parliament, I owe to forms for her friends-on the first occasion my husband. We are not man and woman; she was given half a dozen forms-when she we are two people together. Not for one went back to ask for more forms she was told moment do I decry the part of any wife that each woman had to come in individually to register and she was not given the forms to or husband. What I want to see is that take to her friends. we are all treated as individuals, each sex given credit for having brains and certain I believe that the number of women who abilities, according to sex, and this must be. have registered does not give a correct indi­ To emphasise and use such arguments to cation of the number who wish to serve, or exclude women from jury service is to 2290 Jury Acts Amendment Bill [ASSEMBLY] Questions

abandon the fundamental principle that a jury should be representative of the whole community. The argument that lack of facilities in the courts should preclude women from serving on juries does not hold water. Women volunteers have been considered acceptable, so there must be some facilities. Women have registered and have served. In addition, there are women prisoners. I feel that if­ rather, when-the Bill is passed these facilities could very quickly and easily be provided for women. I struck that problem here when I entered Parliament. I saw doors marked "Members only". Many men would have had a blue fit if I had gone into some of those places, yet I am a member. But that matter has now sorted itself out without any embarrassment to the male members of the House or to myself. I also feel that my presence has not made any difference to their attitude of mind or to the way male members have spoken when discussing matters in this Chamber. I would not want it to be otherwise. I am here as a person. Finally, since there is every indication that the selection of women for jury service on the same basis as men is inevitable, it remains only a question of time and it is to be hoped that the Queensland Government will demon­ strate its progressiveness by moving in this field instead of waiting till every other State has implemented such legislation. Before I conclude, I should like to make a reference to the suggestion that the fact that women are not at home when their children return from school leads to delinquency. The suggestion is that a mother should be there with open arms waiting for her children when they come home. This is an argument that I have met in many places over the years. One would think that women have a monopoly of loving their children. I am sure that every member of this Committee loves his children just as much as his wife does, and it is not inferred from his being away from home for any time that he does not love them. One would also think that because women serve on juries for perhaps a few hours or a few days, this would make a difference to the training that they can give their children over the years. I feel that it also implies that hundreds of women would be out of their homes for many days on jury service. I think that that is stretching the case far too much. The burden of jury service-and I think it can be called a burden-is one that should be shared by the whole community, and the more it is shared by men and women the fewer hours will any member of either sex have to give to the community in jury service. I shall reserve any further remarks to a later stage of the passage of the Bill. Progress reported. The House adjourned at 6.8 p.m.