Official Report (Hansard)
Monday 27 April 2015 Volume 104, No 3
Session 2014-2015
Contents
Assembly Business ………………………………………………………………………………………1
Public Petition: Sixmilewater — Reconsideration of Belmont Road Development ...... 1
Exec utive Committee Business
Social Security Benefits Up-rating Order (Northern Ireland) 2015 ...... 2
Committee Business
Ombudsman and Commissioner for Complaints (Amendment) Bill: First Stage ...... 4
Northern Ireland Act 1998: Report on the Operation of the Provisions of Parts 3 and 4 ...... 4
Private Members' Business
Marriage Equality ...... 10
Oral Answers to Questions
Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister ...... 23
Social Development ...... 31
Private Members' Business
Marriage Equality (Continued) ...... 40
Suggested amendments or corrections will be considered by the Editor.
They should be sent to: The Editor of Debates, Room 248, Parliament Buildings, Belfast BT4 3XX. Tel: 028 9052 1135 · e-mail: [email protected] to arrive not later than two weeks after publication of this report.
Assembly Members
Agnew, Steven (North Down) McCallister, John (South Down) Allister, Jim (North Antrim) McCann, Fra (West Belfast) Anderson, Sydney (Upper Bann) McCann, Ms Jennifer (West Belfast) Attwood, Alex (West Belfast) McCarthy, Kieran (Strangford) Beggs, Roy (East Antrim) McCartney, Raymond (Foyle) Bell, Jonathan (Strangford) McCausland, Nelson (North Belfast) Boylan, Cathal (Newry and Armagh) McCorley, Ms Rosaleen (West Belfast) Boyle, Ms Michaela (West Tyrone) McCrea, Basil (Lagan Valley) Bradley, Dominic (Newry and Armagh) McCrea, Ian (Mid Ulster) Bradley, Ms Paula (North Belfast) McDonnell, Alasdair (South Belfast) Brady, Mickey (Newry and Armagh) McElduff, Barry (West Tyrone) Buchanan, Thomas (West Tyrone) McGahan, Ms Bronwyn (Fermanagh and South Tyrone) Byrne, Joe (West Tyrone) McGimpsey, Michael (South Belfast) Cameron, Mrs Pam (South Antrim) McGlone, Patsy (Mid Ulster) Campbell, Gregory (East Londonderry) McGuinness, Martin (Mid Ulster) Clarke, Trevor (South Antrim) McIlveen, David (North Antrim) Cochrane, Mrs Judith (East Belfast) McIlveen, Miss Michelle (Strangford) Copeland, Michael (East Belfast) McKay, Daithí (North Antrim) Craig, Jonathan (Lagan Valley) McKevitt, Mrs Karen (South Down) Cree, Leslie (North Down) McKinney, Fearghal (South Belfast) Dallat, John (East Londonderry) McLaughlin, Ms Maeve (Foyle) Dickson, Stewart (East Antrim) McLaughlin, Mitchel (Speaker) Dobson, Mrs Jo-Anne (Upper Bann) McMullan, Oliver (East Antrim) Douglas, Sammy (East Belfast) McNarry, David (Strangford) Dunne, Gordon (North Down) McQuillan, Adrian (East Londonderry) Durkan, Mark (Foyle) Maginness, Alban (North Belfast) Easton, Alex (North Down) Maskey, Alex (West Belfast) Eastwood, Colum (Foyle) Middleton, Gary (Foyle) Elliott, Tom (Fermanagh and South Tyrone) Milne, Ian (Mid Ulster) Farry, Stephen (North Down) Morrow, The Lord (Fermanagh and South Tyrone) Fearon, Ms Megan (Newry and Armagh) Moutray, Stephen (Upper Bann) Flanagan, Phil (Fermanagh and South Tyrone) Nesbitt, Mike (Strangford) Ford, David (South Antrim) Newton, Robin (East Belfast) Foster, Mrs Arlene (Fermanagh and South Tyrone) Ní Chuilín, Ms Carál (North Belfast) Frew, Paul (North Antrim) Ó hOisín, Cathal (East Londonderry) Gardiner, Samuel (Upper Bann) Ó Muilleoir, Máirtín (South Belfast) Girvan, Paul (South Antrim) O'Dowd, John (Upper Bann) Givan, Paul (Lagan Valley) O'Neill, Mrs Michelle (Mid Ulster) Hale, Mrs Brenda (Lagan Valley) Overend, Mrs Sandra (Mid Ulster) Hamilton, Simon (Strangford) Poots, Edwin (Lagan Valley) Hazzard, Chris (South Down) Ramsey, Pat (Foyle) Hilditch, David (East Antrim) Robinson, George (East Londonderry) Humphrey, William (North Belfast) Robinson, Peter (East Belfast) Hussey, Ross (West Tyrone) Rogers, Seán (South Down) Irwin, William (Newry and Armagh) Ross, Alastair (East Antrim) Kelly, Mrs Dolores (Upper Bann) Ruane, Ms Caitríona (South Down) Kelly, Gerry (North Belfast) Sheehan, Pat (West Belfast) Kennedy, Danny (Newry and Armagh) Spratt, Jimmy (South Belfast) Kinahan, Danny (South Antrim) Storey, Mervyn (North Antrim) Lo, Ms Anna (South Belfast) Sugden, Ms Claire (East Londonderry) Lunn, Trevor (Lagan Valley) Swann, Robin (North Antrim) Lynch, Seán (Fermanagh and South Tyrone) Weir, Peter (North Down) Lyttle, Chris (East Belfast) Wells, Jim (South Down) McAleer, Declan (West Tyrone) Wilson, Sammy (East Antrim)
Northern Ireland Assembly
Monday 27 April 2015
The Assembly met at 12.00 noon (Mr Speaker in the Chair).
Members observed two minutes' silence.
Assembly Business Public Petition: Sixmilewater — Reconsideration of Belmont Road Mr Dickson: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Development Can you advise the House who the Minister of Health is today, given the statement that the Mr Speaker: Mr Danny Kinahan has sought Minister's resignation will not take place until 11 leave to deliver a public petition in accordance May and that another Minister will take joint with Standing Order 22. The Member will have responsibility for some of the tasks? up to three minutes to speak.
Mr Speaker: My office and I have received no Mr Kinahan: I am really pleased to present this notification, so, until I receive such notification, petition, which calls for the reconsideration of the Minister of Health is Mr Jim Wells. the proposed development of the Belmont Road on a site alongside the banks of the Sixmilewater river. The petition contains 1,047 signatures today and is, I am told, still live and now has 1,182 signatures. I thank Stevie Munn, a game angling consultant, and the Six Mile Water Trust and its colleagues, who pulled the petition together. They highlighted the key issues, and I have enjoyed working with them since I entered politics. Sadly, this matter has arisen at election time, and I hope that it can be resolved by all the politicians in the area working together into the future.
The valley and the river are just on the outskirts of Antrim, and a wonderful council-planned mill race trail runs along the riverbanks and is incredibly popular with locals as an area of natural beauty, for angling, for countryside walks and for nature. It really should be protected and preserved. It should be part of a tourist trail and a tourism strategy — if we had one — in Northern Ireland that promotes our country sports and countryside. We should keep in mind that, in Ireland, angling alone contributes €755 million to the economy.
We all know that the Sixmilewater has often been appallingly badly polluted, and, indeed, in 2008, there was great flooding after heavy rainfall. The blockages around the bridges and other pinch points led to appalling flooding in people's houses. We still have ongoing insurance problems. We should keep that in mind when we look at the petition and the plan.
The present plan is to develop 400 houses beside the river, with a 10-metre buffer — that
1 Monday 27 April 2015 is all — with no recognition of the needs of the wildlife, including the otters, the dippers, the Executive Committee dollaghan and many others. That all needs to Business be studied properly and accurately in an environmental statement. That should be carried out so that we know all the issues. Social Security Benefits Up-rating Order (Northern Ireland) 2015 The application was validated just after the new super-councils began, so it should be subject to Mr Storey (The Minister for Social the new local area plan when it is created and Development): I beg to move should take into account all the community's views before any decision is made. I hope that That the Social Security Benefits Up-rating the Minister will confirm that that is the case Order (Northern Ireland) 2015 be approved. and that previous area plans are now redundant. I also hope that DRD and DARD The uprating order is an annual order that sets will look into the issues that are relevant to out the rates of contributory and non- them. The development should either not contributory benefits, together with the various happen at all or should be completely allowances and premiums, that make up rethought. It is the test on the whole of our new income-related benefits. Generally, the annual planning system. Thank you. amounts from April each year are based on the increases in the general level of prices over the Mr Kinahan moved forward and laid the petition 12 months ending the previous September, on the Table. measured using the consumer prices index (CPI), which is the measure of price inflation the Mr Speaker: I will forward the petition to the Westminster Government consider most Minister of the Environment and send a copy to appropriate for this purpose. the Committee. At the end of September 2014, the CPI showed an increase of 1·2%. According to the latest data published by the Office for National Statistics (ONS), by February this year, that figure had fallen to zero and again remained at zero last month.
There has been some debate in the past about whether the CPI or the retail prices index (RPI) should be used as the measure; some people argue that using CPI will cost less. It is clear that there is no perfect measure of inflation, but uprating by CPI ensures that, at the very least, benefit levels maintain their value against inflation. In addition, some commentators consider that it better reflects the inflation experience of pensioners and benefit recipients.
In 2013, because of the national economic situation pertaining at that time, the Westminster Government brought forward the Welfare Benefits Up-rating Act 2013, which limits the increase in the majority of working- age benefits and statutory payments in Great Britain for 2014-15 and 2015-16 to 1%. Whenever the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions makes an uprating order under section 150 or 150A of the Social Security Administration Act 1992 or an order under the 2013 Act, my Department is empowered to make a corresponding order. There is no power to increase benefits by a different or greater percentage to that provided for in the orders made by the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions.
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provision to increase the weekly rate of ordinary Basic state pension is increased by 2·5% to and additional statutory paternity pay and £115·95, which is an increase of £2 ·85 a week, statutory adoption pay, the responsibility for and the minimum guarantee in state pension which lies with the Department for Employment credit is increased by the same amount, taking and Learning. DSD informed the Committee a single person’s weekly income to £151 ·20. that it consulted with that Department and that For couples, the increase is £4 ·35, taking their DEL is content with the proposals. new total to £230 ·85 a week. Those facing additional costs because of a disability or those The Minister already referred to this, but the who may have less opportunity to increase their only issue of contention for the Committee, income through paid employment have seen which I feel it is important to put on the record their benefits rise by the increase in CPI. again, is that the increase in the uprating is Therefore, disability living allowance, linked to CPI. Others have contested that that attendance allowance, carer’s allowance and is less advantageous. Nevertheless, that is the the main rate of incapacity benefit have all risen position that we are in. The Minister outlined by 1 ·2%, as did the employment and support the reasons for the uplift and the limitations on allowance support group component and those the Committee and the Assembly to do disability-related premiums that are paid with anything about it at this point. pension credit and working-age benefits. On behalf of the Social Development Other benefits have been increased by 1%. As Committee, I recommend that the order be a result of the uprating order, we will be affirmed by the Assembly. spending an additional £94 million on social security in 2015-16 — money that will go into Mr Storey: I thank the Chair of the Social the local community and the local economy. I Development Committee and its members for appreciate that many of us would like to do the consideration that they gave to the matter more, but, as I already stated, my Department and for the positive way in which they dealt with is empowered to increase the rates of benefits the order. As on previous occasions, I have only to the same extent as those payable in taken note of why RPI is no longer used and Great Britain. why we now use CPI. I have no doubt that it is an issue that will continue to be raised in the I am sure that all Members will wish to ensure future, but, as the Member knows, the outgoing that people in Northern Ireland, including some coalition Government's view is that the of the most vulnerable in our society, can consumer price index is the most appropriate continue to receive the new increased rates of measure for price inflation for this purpose. benefit. Therefore, I ask them to join me in Therefore, it remains an issue that is in the supporting the order. domain of the national Government at Westminster. Mr Maskey (The Chairperson of the Committee for Social Development): Go I am certain that there will be a general raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I thank welcome for the increases in the rates of the Minister for bringing forward the statutory benefits provided for by the uprating order, and rule and for outlining the purpose behind it. I commend the motion to the House.
The Committee for Social Development first Question put and agreed to. considered the proposal on 5 February 2014 and was content for the order to be made. We Resolved: formally considered it on 12 March, and the Committee was again content to recommend That the Social Security Benefits Up-rating that the Assembly affirm the statutory rule. As Order (Northern Ireland) 2015 be approved. the Minister indicated, the order is already in operation, and today we are simply being asked to affirm it.
The order, as we just heard from the Minister, is one of a series of statutory rules relating to the annual uprating for rates of social security benefits, pensions and allowances. The implementation of the uprating proposals is expected to increase the Department's annually managed expenditure by approximately £94 million. The uprating order also includes
3 Monday 27 April 2015
Committee Business Northern Ireland Act 1998: Report on the Operation of the Provisions of
Ombudsman and Commissioner for Parts 3 and 4
Complaints (Amendment) Bill: First Stage Mr Speaker: The Business Committee has agreed to allow up to one hour and 30 minutes for the debate. The proposer will have 10 Mr Nesbitt (The Chairperson of the minutes in which to propose the motion and 10 Committee for the Office of the First Minister minutes in which to make a winding-up speech. and deputy First Minister): I beg to introduce All other Members who are called to speak will the Ombudsman and Commissioner for have five minutes. Complaints (Amendment) Bill [NIA 48/11-16], which is a Bill to extend the maximum period for 12.15 pm which an acting Assembly Ombudsman for Northern Ireland and an acting Northern Ireland Commissioner for Complaints may hold office. Mr Moutray (The Chairperson of the Assembly and Executive Review Committee): I beg to move Bill passed First Stage and ordered to be printed. That this Assembly notes the report of the Assembly and Executive Review Committee on the Operation of the Provisions of Parts 3 and 4 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 [NIA 242/11- 16], made under Section 29A(3) of that Act.
The context to this report is that the Northern Ireland Act 2006 inserted section 29A into the Northern Ireland Act 1998, which provided for the establishment and function of the Assembly and Executive Review Committee. Section 29A(3) of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 provides that the Assembly and Executive Review Committee:
"shall, by no later than 1 May 2015, make a report on the operation of the provisions of Parts 3 and 4 of this Act — (a) to the Secretary of State; (b) to the Assembly; and (c) to the Executive Committee."
Since its establishment in May 2007, the AERC has reviewed and produced 10 reports, all of which are outlined in this report. In its approach to each of the reviews, the Committee has sought and considered the views of political parties in identifying what issues to review. Among those that it was asked to consider were the size of the Assembly; the number of Departments; the appointment of the Minister of Justice; the petition of concern mechanism; a review of d'Hondt and the introduction of an official opposition; and gender equality. All those issues were covered in the reports produced by the Committee. There were a number of additional issues that the Committee was asked to consider but they did not fall under its remit and were, therefore, not selected for review.
4 Monday 27 April 2015
While the Committee did not always reach There have been 10 reports carried out, and the consensus on the issues considered in the 10 Chair outlined a number of them. For me, reports, it did set out in detail options for how some of the reports were very informative, and they could be taken forward, with individual the witnesses who came to the Committee and party positions on each issue. The outcomes the number of research papers — as the Chair from these reports recently proved useful in the outlined, there were 53 — provided a lot of negotiations leading to the Stormont House information and insight into how the Assembly Agreement. For example, the Committee's could work better. I do not think that any of us views on how the number of Northern Ireland is naïve enough to not know that some of the Departments could be reduced have been discussions we took part in would need some broadly reflected in the nine future Departments sort of political leadership as well. So, as we as announced by OFMDFM in March. take things forward, we know that. Similarly, the extensive consultation and analysis undertaken as part of the Committee's The first two reports that the Committee carried reviews of d'Hondt, community designation, out were into the transfer of policing and justice provisions for opposition and petitions of powers. I was on the Assembly and Executive concern provided a useful foundation for the Review Committee and then sat on the Justice corresponding provisions in the Stormont Committee when it was established, which no House Agreement. doubt provided an excellent insight into the many agencies and the many different aspects Preparing this report was an opportunity to of the Justice Department that were coming reflect on the number of issues the Assembly here for the first time. and Executive Review Committee took forward. However, it is equally important to recognise The last report of the Committee was on the complexity and depth of some of those women and politics, which perhaps was not reviews — such as policing and justice — strictly within the confines of Parts 3 and 4 of including reviewing the arrangements for the the Act. Again, as we go forward, that will be appointment of a Justice Minister, the seen as the basis for more discussion. establishment of an opposition, a review of the Everybody in the Committee accepted that the petition of concern mechanism and the Assembly — indeed, politics in general, not just reduction in the number of Departments and here — could do more to encourage and make Members of this Assembly. provision for more women in politics. That report will be seen in that context. It is worth noting that the Committee commissioned 53 Assembly research papers as I commend the Chair and, on behalf of Sinn part of its inquiries. That was testimony to the Féin, thank the Committee staff and the extensive scrutiny that the Committee researchers for the valuable work they have undertook to ensure that the parties carried out over a long number of years. Go represented on it were fully informed of the raibh míle maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. complexities of implementing institutional reform in Northern Ireland and were aware of Mr Rogers: These reports are the product of a models of best practice nationally and number of years' work and research, and I internationally. place on record my thanks and the SDLP's thanks to the Committee's Clerks and staff for The Assembly and Executive Review their tremendous work. Committee requests that the Assembly notes its report on the operation of the provisions of As the previous Member said, the Committee's Parts 3 and 4 of the 1998 Act to the Secretary work involved working through the detail of the of State, the Assembly and the Executive operational needs of Parts 3 and 4 of the Committee. Northern Ireland Act. Two reviews that I was recently involved with and would highlight were Mr McCartney: Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann on petitions of concern and women in politics. Comhairle. I welcome the report. Indeed, I thank the Chair for his work over the last Voter disillusionment with Stormont, and with number of years, particularly on the reports that politics more generally, has been highlighted to have been carried out recently. I am the only me, and many in this House I am sure, in the person who has remained on the Committee past few weeks as we have been canvassing. since its inception in 2007. I do not know what Those two reviews, in particular, could help to that says about the Committee or me, but I lay the foundations for voters to start becoming have been there from the beginning. more engaged with our politics.
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Petitions of concern were designed to protect services will see an Executive that greater the equality and human rights of vulnerable serves the people of Northern Ireland. groups. It is clear that the use of petitions of concern has evolved over the life of the Breaches of the ministerial code have been Assembly, and they are being abused in a raised more than once during this mandate, and capricious manner. I am sure the discussions we believe that this is an area that needs between the parties on petitions of concern will looked at as well. As Mr Rogers also referred be aided and informed by the review so that we to, petition of concern is an area that is can ensure that petitions are employed in obviously in need of serious reform. However, accordance with their originally intended this is one of the areas that is currently being purpose. The SDLP believes that any change reviewed as part of the Stormont House in the use of petitions must be reflected in Agreement, so I await the outcome of that. standing orders and be adjudicated upon. We note that the conclusions in this report point The debate on the review into women in politics to the work that has already been carried out in and in the Assembly nicely coincided with the relation to a number of provisions of Parts 3 celebrations for International Women's Day. It and 4 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 and the was heartening to hear cross-party recognition work that is still to be completed following the and support for the need for more women to Stormont House Agreement as well as by the enter politics. However, most people want to independent financial review panel. We will no know what we are going to do about it. It is doubt come back to many of these topics in the important that we implement the future, either to welcome work completed or to recommendations of the review and help to investigate what more is needed to be done, encourage and support more women to run for but we note the contents of this report today. election in Northern Ireland at all levels. Mr Lunn: The Chair laid out in his introduction I am confident that the vast work undertaken by why we were required to make this report. At this Committee will prove to be beneficial to the the time, it seemed to come out of the blue and House and the Secretary of State. Thank you, was a bit of a surprise. I would not say that we Mr Speaker; that was short and sweet. nearly overlooked it, but we did not have an awful lot of time to deal with the issue, not that Mr Swann: I just heard Mr Rogers say, "Short that should be much of a handicap in the case and sweet." Hopefully, he was referring to his of this Committee because, frankly, we never contribution rather than me. [Laughter.] We spend much time on anything. note the publication of this report from the Assembly and Executive Review Committee. I want to pay tribute to the staff, two of whom As the report outlines, a number of the are here, Claire McCanny and Kate elements of the provisions in Parts 3 and 4 of McCullough, and Jim Nulty. They have dealt the Northern Ireland Act 1998 are subject to with this as best they can, producing mountains discussion following the Stormont House of information for us. The Committee, once it Agreement. The report concludes that the got into its deliberations, met three times. I Committee will revisit a number of the issues fancy that we may have spent between an hour following the publication of the its report and and a half and two hours in total on this points to the fact that other aspects were supposedly very important review, and here we subject to discussions flowing from the are today. I suppose that we could say that we Stormont House Agreement. have fulfilled the obligation under the original Act to review the operation of Parts 3 and 4. One of the areas that the Committee will revisit We have done that, but, beyond that, there is is the method of election of the First Minister not an awful lot to say about this. and deputy First Minister. It is no secret that the Ulster Unionist Party would like to see a The Chair, in his introduction, said that these return to the joint election of that office. The reports provide a lot of valuable input for future Stormont House Agreement contained a deliberation, such as the Stormont House reduction in the number of Executive Agreement. I will go through some of the Departments. Ultimately, it is the Ulster paragraphs in the report. Paragraph 31 notes Unionist Party's view that we could have seen a the point that parties were asked to identify if more ambitious reduction in the number of there were any further provisions that they Executive Departments. Nevertheless, we wanted to have included in the report. I think welcome the small number arrived at. that that was the third time that they had been While the detail has still to be worked out, we asked, and nobody ever came up with any hope that the reallocations of functions and suggestions. Paragraph 49 is on the operations of 16A and 16C of the Act. The Committee
6 Monday 27 April 2015 acknowledged that a consensus could not be 1998, through the St Andrews Agreement and reached. Paragraph 60 of the report states the Stormont House Agreement, about the size that, on the initial ministerial provision in relation of the Assembly and the number of to the Department of Justice, there was no Departments. Those issues concentrate the broad consensus. Paragraph 67 states that the minds not just of the Assembly and Executive Committee could not reach consensus on the Review Committee but of the wider public. In size of the Assembly. Paragraph 82 states that all seriousness, I share some of Mr Lunn's the Committee concluded that there was no concerns, because, at times, the Committee consensus at that time on d’Hondt. Paragraph goes over ground that we all know that we will 90 refers to the Committee's report on petitions not reach consensus on. Some critics need to of concern and states that the Committee did make up their minds — I am not referring to Mr not achieve consensus for most of its Lunn — in that, if we do not agree, they criticise conclusions. the politicians and members of the Assembly and Executive Review Committee, and, if we do Mr Speaker, I do not want to query the clock, agree, they criticise us for agreeing. They but was my time perhaps added to that of the cannot have it both ways. Member who spoke previously? I do not think that I have been going for four and a half 12.30 pm minutes. If I have, my time is nearly up. That will be a relief to some people. (Mr Principal Deputy Speaker [Mr Newton] in the Chair) Finally, Mr Swann referred to paragraph 102. It states: There is no doubt that there is a gulf of difference between some of the parties, not "The Committee agreed that it would return least between Sinn Féin and us. The to consider issues relating to the Committee went through the motions to arrive nomenclature and the method of election of at the conclusion that that gulf exists. I do not the First Minister and deputy First Minister ... see that there is a problem with admitting that the Ministerial Code" — to be the case. However, the Stormont House Agreement — AERC investigated some of the Mr Speaker: You have an extra minute. There issues therein — addressed some of those was a difficulty with the clock. I will keep you matters, and we are very slowly, at a snail's right. pace, doing likewise. I do not accept the pace, and many people outside do not accept it Mr Lunn: Thank you. Paragraph 102 either. I want us to make much more significant continues: progress. What people want to say to us, and what I say today, is that we need to get on, "and Strategies relating to Irish language address the matters, get the size of the and Ulster Scots ... following the publication Assembly down, get the number of of the Committee Report". Departments down and let us see a fully functioning, effective Government in place. I respectfully suggest that the best thing that this Committee could do is to conduct a review Mr Allister: Here we are again: another non- of its own operations. It is a farce, and it really report from what is, effectively, a non- needs to be beefed up and tidied up. We committee. Indeed, things are so bad this time continually do not reach consensus on virtually that the report is reduced simply to reciting its anything. I will leave it at that, but I will support previous ineffective non-reports. I say "non- the report. committee", because the truth is that this Committee is either not permitted or is Mr Campbell: I am little bit confused by Mr incapable of original thought. It can act only Lunn's concluding remarks in that he almost when it gets the nod from the politburo to agree excoriated the report and welcomed it at the something. Otherwise, its sole function is to same time, but such is the Alliance Party. meet occasionally, just long enough to drink the free coffee, take the free scones, dip into the Mr Lunn: Will the Member give way? free fruit platter, and, after 25 minutes, the meeting is over. That is the essence of the Committee. Mr Campbell: No, I think that we have had enough. Mr Lunn: I thank the Member for giving way. We do not get free scones any more. I welcome the report, such as it is. A series of issues have been at the heart of matters since
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Mr Allister: Any more? Good. Good Friday Agreement, and I would vote yes again for the Good Friday Agreement. Mr Principal Speaker: The Member has an extra minute. Mr Allister: Will the Member give way?
Mr Allister: So this Committee made a Mr B McCrea: Yes. decision, Mr Lunn says, that, such was the level of embarrassment over its inactivity, it would no Mr Allister: The gullible I was referring to were longer have free coffee, free scones and free those who voted no to the Good Friday fruit. Well done, this Committee. Is that the Agreement, who pretended that they were still product of all this? Yes, sadly, it is. against the Good Friday Agreement and who were then so gullible to believe that they could The Chairman, of course, who obviously has endorse the Good Friday Agreement and, much more important things to do than even to through this review mechanism, nonetheless be here for the debate — after his three-minute get it changed. They were the gullible I was speech, he disappeared from the Chamber — referring to; not you, Mr McCrea — you were told us that the Committee had had 53 research always gullible. [Laughter.] papers. It has had 53 fig leaves, because it has done nothing with any of them. Mr Principal Deputy Speaker: Mr McCrea has an extra minute. The real significance of today is that, after eight years, we reach the point at which the DUP promise of 2007 stands naked and exposed. Mr B McCrea: I am trying to work out whether it The 2007 promise, after St Andrews, was: this is better to be wrong or gullible. I am grateful was for the gullible, of whom there were many, for the clarification, because the challenge I put and you will have to swallow mandatory out then, and the challenge I put out now, is coalition for eight years, but we have got it into this: give me an alternative. Give me the Act. We have amended section 29, and, in something else that you can do that will get 2015, at the end of eight years — two terms — agreement. What the Member just outlined is there will be a review to end mandatory that we have a stalemate. We cannot get any coalition. What a con. Yet Members like the form of agreement; there will be no change. The reason why this is a complete waste of Chairman, who is on record as saying that he would rather go back to his shop than go into time is because there is no agreement. government with Sinn Féin, were gullible enough to swallow it, to peddle it and to pretend I can accept some of the arguments that the about it. Today he is probably out canvassing honourable Member put forward about what he for a candidate who in 2005 took David would like to see achieved, but the truth of the Trimble's seat on the basis of a manifesto matter is that he will not see them achieved. saying that mandatory coalition with Sinn Féin The most serious issue that we have had — I was out of the question. Ever since, he has think it is at paragraph 102 — is what to call the spent his time propping it up, as has the First Minister and deputy First Minister. That is Chairman. what pervades every single political thought in this place and in this country; it does not matter The great promise for the gullible was this: at what your policies are on anything. It all comes the end of eight years, there would be this down to this: "Let's keep the Shinners out" or mighty review. We were not tied into "Let's try and get the Shinners in". All other mandatory coalition in perpetuity; it would be policy debates are reduced to nothing. magicked away by this review. That was the disingenuous nonsense that was peddled and I checked to see what this Committee does, that many of the gullible fell for, while some who and I noticed that paragraph 12 on page 4 says wanted to fall for it grasped it with both hands. that it agreed to write to all the independents and the party leaders on 27 January — That is the truth and the reality of what happened in that party. Today, the truth and the reality of this fatuous, vacuous report is that Mrs D Kelly: Will the Member give way? it does not even amount to a row of beans — fitting, perhaps, given the disingenuous nature Mr B McCrea: Yes. of the false promise so grandly made. Mrs D Kelly: This is on a slightly different point, Mr B McCrea: Mr Allister referred to some but does the Member not agree that neither people as "gullible". I may be one of those Sinn Féin nor the DUP has fulfilled the gullible people, because I voted yes for the promises of the Good Friday Agreement, which
8 Monday 27 April 2015 many people voted for because it was a better see a more effective mechanism, whether it be way forward, and that a sectarian headcount some form of weighted mechanism, some sort suits both parties? of review or something else. We cannot get to a situation in which it does not matter what we Mr B McCrea: I am happy to develop that point. say or speak on because a petition of concern That is what was promised in 1998. We were will be tabled. As a result, this place will not going to try to put the past behind us and move change. forward. We were going to try to work our way through things. The history of this place has The issue that many people find strange is that proven that it has not been possible to do that. the Assembly has little power on matters. Most Of course, people go through a few sham issues — most difficult issues — are resolved at fights; they pretend that they are having Executive level or behind closed doors. That is disagreements, and then they go off and talk to not what democracy is based on. We should their core electorate. Meanwhile, nothing, be having the debate and come out and say nothing, nothing gets done. This Committee what we want to see done better. will not produce any reports because this Committee cannot produce any reports. On Mrs Kelly's point, the disappointment that the people of our country feel is palpable. We At the risk of stating the obvious, we are getting need to do better, so we ought to have an to a stage where you find that the contempt in official review. The AERC is the Committee which the political process is held in this part of that should be doing that. It is failing in its job, the world is palpable when you talk to people and collectively we need to do better. on the street. If we do not deal with that, we will not get people buying in to a political process, a Mr Sheehan (The Deputy Chairperson of the peace process or any other process. Assembly and Executive Review Committee): Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh- We have far more important things to deal with, LeasCheann Comhairle. As Deputy Chair of whether they be youth unemployment, trying to the Assembly and Executive Review get the economy going or trying to sort out our Committee, I will make the closing remarks in stance on gay marriage or any of the other the debate on the Assembly and Executive issues that affect us. Let us have proper Review Committee's Report on the operation of debate. But, do you know what? We cannot. the provisions of Parts 3 and 4 of the NI Act Everything comes back to whether we will have 1998. I do not propose to summarise Members' Marty as First Minister or whether we will contributions. They speak for themselves and ensure that he is not. will be available in Hansard.
Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, the clock is not I commend the Assembly and Executive working, so I do not know where I am with time. Review Committee on the work that has been undertaken over the past eight years. At times, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker: The clock is that work has been complex and sensitive when accurate. it came to considering the views of the political parties and individual Members of the House. I further stress that those same parties and Mr B McCrea: Sorry. I beg your pardon. individual Members were given the opportunity to contribute to the topics that were to be The key question that I want to ask is this: why considered by the Committee. can we not have some proper debate? I heard Mr Campbell say that we should reduce the The reports produced by the Assembly and number of MLAs. Fair enough, let us reduce Executive Review Committee over those past the number of MLAs, but maybe we should look eight years have contributed to a number of key at changing the boundaries. Why do we have matters that have been taken forward by the to follow the 18 parliamentary constituencies? Assembly, such as policing and justice, the That is the debate, and I am happy that some procedures for the appointment of the First discussion may happen on that. We certainly Minister and the deputy First Minister, and need to get a more effective form of women in politics. government. I also agree with the Chair that, when we People will know that I have long-held reviewed not only the reports but the reservations about petitions of concern. We get mechanisms that we used to carry out the into situations from time to time when both the reviews, I was struck by the wealth of main parties have said, "Do you know what? information and research that was We really cannot see this passed". I want to commissioned on behalf of the Committee to
9 Monday 27 April 2015 reach the conclusions and recommendations in 12.45 pm every report. In addition to the extensive number of research papers that were produced, the Committee engaged with a wide range of Private Members' Business stakeholders as part of each review, from political parties to leading academics here and Marriage Equality in the UK, as well as councils, think tanks and voluntary and community groups. The Mr Principal Deputy Speaker: The Business Committee also engaged with the British Committee has agreed to allow up to one hour Secretary of State, the Northern Ireland Office, and 30 minutes for this debate. The proposer Executive Departments and non-departmental of the motion will have 10 minutes to propose public bodies. and 10 minutes to make a winding-up speech. All other contributors will have five minutes. As I emphasise to the House that the reports of the a valid petition of concern was presented on Assembly and Executive Review Committee Friday 24 April in relation to the motion, the vote have provided valuable information to the will be on a cross-community basis. Assembly that have allowed it to consider ways of moving forward reform of the institution. (Mr Speaker in the Chair) I conclude by thanking the Committee officials for the sterling work that they have done over the past eight years. Ms Ruane: I beg to move
Question put and agreed to. That this Assembly welcomes the marriage equality referendum in the South of Ireland; Resolved: notes that a growing number of Parliaments across the world have embraced, and legislated That this Assembly notes the report of the for, marriage equality; respects the rights of the Assembly and Executive Review Committee on religious institutions to define, observe and the Operation of the Provisions of Parts 3 and 4 practise marriage within their beliefs; and calls of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 [NIA 242/11- on the Executive to legislate for marriage 16], made under Section 29A(3) of that Act. equality for same-sex couples so that all citizens will have the same legal entitlement to the protections, responsibilities, rights, obligations and benefits afforded by the legal institution of marriage.
Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Agus molann Sinn Féin an ceart um chomhionannas sóisialta, gnéis agus cultúrtha. I welcome the referendum for marriage equality in the South of Ireland. I will be voting yes — tá — on 22 May. I was part of the Sinn Féin team at the constitutional convention, and I was very proud that all our representatives voted in favour of marriage equality. If we vote yes, and I hope we do, we will be a step closer to cherishing all the children of the nation equally.
Sinn Féin wants to see this island part of a progressive world where all citizens can be married, regardless of their sexual orientation. We want to join the nations that have supported marriage equality: Argentina, Brazil, Canada, Denmark, France, Iceland, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Portugal, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, England, Scotland, Wales and Uruguay. This is the fourth time that Sinn Féin has brought this motion forward, and I have no doubt that there will be some among you who will be critical of that. We make no apology for that, because until all our citizens have equality we will
10 Monday 27 April 2015 continue to bring motions in relation to equality. nonsensical. He should be here and he should Sin é; it is as simple as that. clarify his position.
I sympathise with Jim Wells in relation to his This is an equality issue. I can marry my wife Grace, and I am genuinely sorry that they husband. I can show the world that I have are going through such difficult and traumatic married him and that I love him, but my gay and times; I mean that very sincerely. However, no lesbian friends who have been in relationships matter how much pressure someone is under, for longer than I have — I have been in it for there is no excuse for the comments that were only 22 or 23 years — cannot do the same, and made. What made the comments even worse that is not fair. It is not legally right and it is not was that they were made by the Health fair. Minister, who has taken a pledge of office and who is responsible for safeguarding children. Jim Wells is not alone in the DUP to have made Jim Wells violated that pledge of office, and I such homophobic comments. The list is long — believe — Sammy Wilson, Ian Paisley junior, Iris Robinson, Edwin Poots. We had Paul Givan Mr Allister: Will the Member give way? trying to bring in a Bill, but, thankfully, Sinn Féin, with the Greens and Basil McCrea, are Ms Ruane: No, I will not give way. blocking that discriminatory private Member's Bill dressed up as a so-called conscience Bill. I believe that he made the right decision. The only part of the decision that I think is wrong is To the DUP, I say that I hope that none of your that he should have resigned from now and not children; grandchildren; nieces; nephews; from 11 May. Peter Robinson, the leader of the brothers; sisters; aunties; uncles; cousins; DUP, now has a decision to make. The public neighbours; friends, or constituents are gay. needs to be reassured that the new Health The reason that I hope they are not is because Minister will fulfil her or his duties in the they will be living in fear and getting very Department, whether it is in relation to adoption, dangerous messages. They will be living in a blood donation or child protection. We cannot culture of silence and rejection. There is a continue to have policy made based on good chance that your policies and utterances personal religious belief and then pretending are hurting them, and hurting them so deeply that there is research to back it up. We have that they fear coming out. As Justin McAleese seen that with the last two Health Ministers. It so eloquently put it in his article, when he heard is insulting to the community at large, Ian Paisley junior's remarks, it stopped him particularly to the LBG community. Indeed, his coming out for another while and left him comments were very insulting to lone parents. suffering in silence. It is wrong, and things need to change in this part of the world. You I note that all of the parties have criticised his are condemning them to silence and fear. comments, and I welcome that, but now the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Parties What are the arguments that we are going to like the SDLP and Alliance say that their policy hear today? That it threatens family values — is to support marriage equality, and their yeah, yeah, yeah. We have heard it before. I members say they support their party policy. will tell you when we heard it. We heard it But then, some of them do not turn up for when it was used to justify laundries, when debates, and we hear the most ridiculous women were hidden away to protect family excuses. So, I genuinely hope that there is a values while they were pregnant and had their full SDLP team and a full Alliance team here children. Children were sent to far-flung parts today. of the globe to protect family values. We do not want to protect those types of family values. Ulster Unionist Party Members have a free vote We will hear that the institution of marriage is — sitting on the fence as usual. I believe that threatened. Where did we hear that before? It the leader of the UUP has questions to answer. was in apartheid South Africa, to justify why He is not here, unfortunately. He sits on the black and white could not marry — because it Committee with responsibility for equality, but would threaten the institution of marriage. he has questions to answer. His party has election pacts with a party that does not support The other argument we will hear today is about equality. Then, he is on the radio making religious belief. In case there is any ambiguity nonsensical arguments that the marriage about it, the motion supports freedom of religion equality debate is not about equality and that by allowing religious institutions to define, that is why he supports equality for LGBT observe and practise marriage according to people but not in relation to marriage. It is their beliefs. However, as legislators, we are not here to legislate according to our personal
11 Monday 27 April 2015 beliefs; we are here to legislate on the basis of entirely for them. I take no position at all on the equality, and that is what we will do. We will referendum. It is not my place to try to interfere join the rest of the world in equality for all of our in the internal affairs of another sovereign citizens. country. However, I hope that such a referendum never takes place in this My concluding message is to the LGB jurisdiction. community. Sinn Féin believes that you have rights. We will support those rights. We will It is not about a rights agenda. When civil take on discrimination and homophobia using partnerships were brought in, that conferred a all the tools at our disposal, but the biggest range of rights. That was meant to sort out the message that I want to send to drown out the rights issues. It dealt with that. The motion is negative, hateful bile that is coming out of some clearly an attack on the symbolism and people is: we love our gay aunties and uncles; institution of marriage and is an attempt to we love our lesbian children and gay redefine marriage. My party believes, as do I grandchildren. We applaud your courage and from my personal beliefs and convictions, that bravery and the bravery of organisations that marriage is between one man and one woman. work with you. Together, we will build a society Once you redefine that, you lose the essence of that includes and embraces. marriage itself. I have no doubt that some proponents of this will say that that definition is I urge politicians to be very careful when they not inclusive. I freely accept that it is not an are speaking. A gay couple knows only too well inclusive definition because marriage, by its how scary it is, in the dark of night, when a brick nature, is not inclusive: it makes a range of might come through the window. It takes boundaries and restrictions. There are courage to come out, because hate crime is on restrictions on the age at which people can be the rise. Those politicians who incite hatred, do married and the nature of the blood relationship not wring your hands, cite your conscience or between those who would potentially get say that you are against violence, if your words married. Similarly, it is restricted to two people; — your words — are the words ringing in the one man and one woman. Marriage, by its ears of the person who throws the brick through nature, then, has a special place in society. the window. Shame on you. Shame on you. Perhaps the most serious thing is the impact Today, what we need is this House to support that it would have on Churches and faith the motion. organisations. There was an attempt to sugar the pill in relation to that. We have supposedly, Mr Weir: I am speaking on behalf of the DUP. in the motion, the provision to try to protect My party will oppose the motion for a number of those Churches. I ask what level of worth that reasons. First of all, the proposer of the motion has and whether we are faced today with a mentioned that it is the fourth occasion on motion that is really the endgame. If we see a which it has been brought to the House this situation in which the definition of marriage is mandate. The make-up of the House has redefined in this nature and various Churches altered very little during that period. Clearly, resist that, as they would, how long will it be this is an attempt at an electoral stunt. This is before pressure comes on them and there is not a serious debate. Indeed, that was some of court challenge or indeed pressure is indicated by the previous Member who spoke put on them with regard to the funding that when she made the offensive remarks would go to them? For those who see that as effectively comparing those who oppose same- fanciful, we have seen recently in the Ashers sex marriage or a redefinition of marriage to case that there are to be no exemptions or those who took a particular view in apartheid exceptions for the exercise of conscience. South Africa. I find that deeply offensive. 1.00 pm I think that the game was given away by the proposer of the motion when she referred to the Mr McCallister: Will the Member give way? SDLP, Alliance Party and Ulster Unionist Party. Clearly, this is an attempt to try to exploit Mr Weir: No, I want to get through this. differences in those parties for pure electoral gain. It is disappointing that there will not be a Similarly, if we are looking at the endgame, we serious debate on that basis. should remember that when the then Prime Minister, Tony Blair, brought in civil At the outset, I want to say that the position with partnerships, we were told that this was meant regard to the definition of marriage in the to clear up all the issues: civil partnerships Republic of Ireland — although it is only were the complete solution, and marriage itself obliquely referred to in the motion — is a matter
12 Monday 27 April 2015 was not being tampered with. Yet we see, 10 deeply held religious views about this issue. years down the line, an attempt to redefine The SDLP's policy is clear, however: we secular marriage. How much assurance can support equal marriage. I know that that is our we have that, further down the line, there will policy because I proposed it at our party not be an attempt at redefining the religious conference, and it was passed by a majority. sacrament of marriage? That is how we do things. We are very clear that that is our position, but we also recognise I have to say that, if you are a supporter of pure that we have to protect the Churches and equality in marriage, this motion does not cut it religious organisations that do not want to take for you because, essentially, it says that you part in equal marriage. This is about changing can have marriage on certain grounds but there civil marriage, not about changing anybody's will be exclusions. As anyone who has religious interpretation of what marriage is. campaigned for equality on any issue will tell Marriage has changed and evolved over the you, it will, therefore, be simply a staging post. centuries. This is about the access to civil If the motion is passed and the Executive take marriage. In the event that the motion passes action, the very same supporters of the motion and we finally get to a position of equality with will come back to take further action to remove people in Britain, the Churches will be any exemption for the Churches. There is no protected. doubt about that. At best, today's motion represents — there has been an attempt to I fully respect people's right to oppose equal disguise this — a temporary reprieve for the marriage, but people need to understand that Churches and those of faith. we need to be seen to support members of our community who have been getting all the wrong For all those reasons, I urge the House to reject kinds of messages from this place, whether the motion. telling people that their blood is not good enough to save lives or that they cannot adopt Mr Eastwood: We are having this debate at a children, when children are crying out for loving time of great concern for the many in our fathers. community who have not been treated as full and valued members of it by people in positions Mr Wells has done the right thing, but I call on of authority. In the last few days, members of the DUP to go further. One of the DUP's MPs our community have been demeaned and their has said that gay people harm society. That value and worth attacked. I am glad to see that kind of bigotry is what harms society. That kind we are now at a stage at which people own up of bigotry is what got us into a lot of difficulties to their mistakes, take it on the chin and resign. over the years in this place. I call on the First We do not have much of a culture of that here Minister to disassociate himself from Ian yet. I think that Mr Wells has done the right Paisley's remarks and to ask him to withdraw thing by resigning, and I wish him all the best in them, in the same way that Mr Wells did. dealing with his personal difficulties. Hopefully, the DUP will move to a much more tolerant place in society. If it does not, I do not As an Assembly, and as people in positions of see how any potential British Prime Minister power and responsibility, we need to be seen to could do a deal with a party that thinks that embrace all members of our community — all homosexuals harm society. We need to see a members. The motion and the idea of equal complete change in the attitude of that party, marriage are about ensuring that people in our and I hope that, today, it takes the opportunity community can access the full services of the to begin that process. state and be seen as and respected as full citizens in our society. There is no reason Mr Kinahan: I rise saddened that the Chamber whatsoever why the North of Ireland should be is being used by Sinn Féin to play party politics the only place in these islands that does not but, as ever, hopeful that somewhere in the have marriage available to same-sex couples. words and minds of all those here is a genuine That is the position that we will be in very intention to do good. I will not be taking any shortly, because I believe strongly that people interventions. in the South will vote yes in the marriage equality referendum, and I hope that they do. At school and in the army, I believed and, I am We will be the only place on these islands that ashamed to say, joked, carried by the flow, that does not have that same equality for members gay, lesbian and such matters were wrong and of our community. could be laughed at. I had never really sat down and thought about it. In the 1980s, when I fully respect people's views on this issue. I you were due for promotion from captain to understand that people have deeply held major, you were vetted; every aspect of your life religious views. People in our party have was questioned so that it could be judged
13 Monday 27 April 2015 whether you were suitable to take on higher practise marriage within their beliefs. Marriage levels of responsibility, such as receiving or is not just a Christian institution but one that giving orders, doing your duty and making crosses all religions and is also secular. Using decisions under pressure that would risk soldier a definition such as civic union can make that or civilian lives. One of my great friends, an institution seem second class or second rate to excellent soldier in another regiment, left the some, especially when legislating for their army, and it was only much later that I protections, responsibilities, rights, obligations discovered why: he failed vetting because he and the benefits of marriage. It is that strong was gay. That opened my eyes as to how perception of a second-class citizen that needs wrong society could be. When serving and to be changed, which is why I support the knowing the risks of doing so, you recognise motion. the importance of absolute trust in your comrades. When on active service, you do not Mr Lyttle: I welcome the opportunity to speak care about the religion, colour or sexuality of to the motion, not least because it allows me to the man beside you, and, when injured, you clarify and respond to the DUP Westminster most certainly never ask who donated the blood candidate in East Belfast, who has quite that saved your life. underhandedly attempted to claim that my colleagues and I have been pressurised on the A society that is great, whether British, Irish or issue. Given that he has close knowledge of Northern Irish, is a society where no one is how intimidation, threat and attack, inflamed by discriminated against and where everyone is the DUP, has not pressurised me or my allowed to practice their religious beliefs freely colleagues one iota, I find it strange that he and without fear. I want a society here in purports to believe that party process would Northern Ireland where no one is made to feel have achieved otherwise. The only pressure like a second-class citizen to any extent, and that I put on myself on the issue is my own certainly not due to sexual definition. I want no belief and standards to live up to my vocation. I discrimination whatsoever on account of will speak on behalf of the Alliance Party in religious belief or sexual orientation. supporting the motion.
I had a gentleman visit one of my constituency The Alliance Party is committed to delivering a offices last week who proceeded to berate a shared society for everyone based on religious young man working there about my stance on and civil liberty and equality for all, regardless certain issues. It left him very shaken. That is of age, gender, disability, race, ethnicity or totally unacceptable. Debate, yes; discuss, sexual orientation, and to standing against certainly; but bully, never. I want a society discrimination or stigmatisation of any kind. where no one feels that their religious belief is The Alliance Party believes that state-provided necessarily superior to others. I so want to see services should be available to all citizens. Civil more Christian forgiveness, tolerance and marriage is a state-provided service. It is understanding. differentiated from religious marriage in the Marriage (Northern Ireland) Order 2003 and I am proud of the Ulster Unionist Party for required by that law to be secular in nature: making this a free vote, in which everyone can that is, to have no religious or spiritual basis. vote in accordance with their religious beliefs, The Alliance Party, therefore, supports the values and conscience. That is how this debate extension of state-provided civil marriage to should be for everyone. I suspect that some in same-sex couples, provided robust legislative the Chamber are not voting as they would really protection can uphold the religious freedom of wish. That, on a matter of conscience or faith groups to define and practise religious religion, is wrong — very, very wrong. marriage as they determine.
Serving in the forces or working in a job in Mr Dickson: Will the Member give way? trying and testing conditions can create great pressure. Even under pressure, you must Mr Lyttle: Yes, I give way. always be able to debate or argue, accept each other's differences and, afterwards, sit down together and carry on amicably. That is being Mr Dickson: Will the Member join me in professional. That is how it should be in the expressing disappointment at the deployment of Chamber. For those who cannot do that, that a petition of concern today, particularly given will always be their limitation. the recent comments by the First Minister that he feels that freer thought should be allowed on I support the motion because it combines some of these issues? marriage equality and the respect for the rights of the religious institutions to define and Mr Speaker: The Member has an extra minute.
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Whilst I have my own faith and belief about Mr Lyttle: Yes, I agree. That point is well marriage, I find it reasonable that a person of made. We recognise, of course, that there is a same-sex orientation, which is a legal sexual wide range of sincerely and strongly held views orientation in Northern Ireland, expects, under on the issue. There are people who oppose the the principles of democracy, equal access to proposal because they believe that it state-provided civil marriage. I also believe contravenes their faith. There are people who that, if the faith groups' ability to define and oppose it because they believe that equality is observe religious marriage as they determine is afforded to same-sex couples via civil upheld and shown to be a positive experience partnerships. There are, however, many of marriage, the aspects of that marriage that people who support it because they believe that they hold dear can survive and thrive. My aim it is the duty of the state to treat all citizens has always been to contribute to respectful and equally. accurate dialogue on this issue. I hope that my contribution has reflected that aim and the I am a Christian. I cherish the freedom of Alliance Party commitment to equality and to religion that I have in a democracy to practise building a shared society for everyone in and communicate my Christian faith and my Northern Ireland. belief that marriage is the voluntary lifelong union of one man and one woman to the In my remaining minute, may I extend my exclusion of all others under God. I recognise sincere thoughts and prayers to Jim Wells and that I do not always live up to that faith and that his wife for the health challenges that they are many people do not agree with my personal facing? However, on behalf of the Alliance belief. That, however, is who I am. I believe, Party, may I also make it clear that the therefore, that the religious freedom of people comments by the Health Minister, Jim Wells, in and groups of faith to define and observe their this recent week were completely unacceptable, understanding of religious marriage should be unsubstantiated and, unfortunately, part of a upheld. wider pattern of DUP hostility to equality for all citizens here in Northern Ireland? The DUP I believe in the kingdom of God on earth as it is leadership needs to make it clear where it in heaven, but I believe that the principles of stands on these important matters. The Ulster freedom of religion, freedom from religion and Unionist Party leadership and supporters who equality for all citizens that democracy affords will be voting for DUP candidates in the provide the best framework in which to build a Westminster election need also to reflect on the safe, fair, shared and prosperous society under credibility of their support for that DUP government by the people. I also believe that approach to equality. freedom of religion relies on freedom from religion. There is stark and brutal historical and I support the motion. present-day evidence of how a lack of freedom from religion has allowed the perversion of Mr McCausland: Mr Speaker, this is the fourth religion to justify terror and totalitarian rule time that what is sometimes referred to as against people of all backgrounds, including "same-sex marriage" has been debated here in Christians. I believe that the application of the Northern Ireland Assembly. All the issues these principles and a reading of the law on the were analysed and debated at length during matter, in particular the Marriage (Northern those previous three debates, and, on each and Ireland) Order 2003, support the extension of every occasion, the Assembly voted to retain state-provided civil marriage, regardless of the traditional definition of marriage. sexual orientation and, therefore, to same-sex couples. This is not an equality issue, although some people try to present it in that way. Neither is it 1.15 pm a human rights issue, although some people attempt to present it in that way. The European As I mentioned, the Marriage (Northern Ireland) Convention on Human Rights does not Order 2003 makes a distinction between recognise what is called "same-sex marriage" religious and civil marriage. It is an explicit as a right, and member states have the right requirement of civil marriage that it be and, indeed, the freedom not to redefine conducted in a secular manner. The proposal marriage in that way. It is really about the is that civil marriage be extended to all citizens, nature, understanding and purpose of marriage. regardless of sexual orientation; it is not the It is an attempt to change the definition of redefinition of religious marriage. marriage, change the understanding of marriage, abandon the traditional view of marriage and introduce a new one.
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I believe that the traditional understanding of For all those reasons, I oppose the motion. I marriage, which is also the biblical support the retention of the traditional understanding, is the right one. A marriage is a understanding and definition of marriage and loving union between a man and a woman, and the current legal understanding of marriage it is foundational in the sense that so much else here in Northern Ireland. in society depends upon it. It is also universal in that it has existed throughout history, across Ms Fearon: Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann human cultures, across religions and around Comhairle. It is a genuine honour for me today the world. Marriage is also beneficial to to be able to speak in favour of extending the individuals and society, and it is beneficial to right of civil marriage to those who are LGBT. I wider society in a variety of ways. express at the outset my solidarity with my comrades across the Twenty-six Counties who In this debate, and in the wider public are fighting for a "Yes" vote in the upcoming discourse, we should, to borrow a biblical marriage referendum, although I do not believe phrase, speak the truth in love. I speak, I that we should be having to vote in the first believe, in love, but I also want to speak the place, because, quite frankly, it should not be truth. Whatever we say on either side of the an issue in 2015. We must make sure that the debate should be spoken in love, and no one referendum is won, because it is the right thing. on either side should be subjected to This is, first and foremost, about love, and love harassment or mistreatment. Whenever we alone. I cannot begin to imagine the elation of uphold the traditional and biblical definition of a young LGBT person waking up on the marriage in our society, we do so out of a morning after a "Yes" vote. I hope that, some genuine belief that traditional marriage is day, we can do that for all the people across important, that marriage is good and that it is this island. beneficial to society. I will briefly comment on the recent controversy The campaign to redefine marriage is an around Jim Wells. I will not say much, mostly attempt to change one of the fundamental because I do not want to give more attention to institutions in our society, and to change it for his, in my opinion, disgusting views. The mask ever. We have been told that there could be slipped, but it is important to remember that he protection for Churches that might refuse to is not the only one wearing one. I take no perform same-sex ceremonies, but that is only confidence at all from the DUP statement that one point, as this is a much wider issue. there will be any attempt to address the wider Consider the impact on Churches in Northern party prejudice. I think that that is a real Ireland: Protestant Churches and the Roman shame. We do not just need a change of Catholic Church have reaffirmed their Minister but a change of mindset, and we need commitment to traditional marriage. Apart from there to be respect. a tiny handful of exceptions, that is the position across not only Christian Churches but other Of course, today we will hear the DUP and religious faiths as well. Across the religious others talk up the benefit of a civil partnership spectrum, there is a consensus that marriage is and how that is more than enough. As I have the union of a man and woman. Yes, there are said before, you cannot be a bit equal to promises of protection, but, so often, such someone: that is not how it works. Civil assurances seem to evaporate over time. If our partnerships are not enough. If we were being society alters the meaning of marriage, that is really honest here today, I would say that it is what will happen. not that you think that civil partnerships are enough but that you think that they are already Consider the impact, too, on those who work in a step too far. registry offices and that on many other businesses. That issue has been highlighted in The motion respects the right of religious recent days. Consider the wider impact on institutions to define and practise marriage society. This is an attempt to change for ever within their beliefs. I understand and respect the legal definition of marriage for all of society: the fact that some people hold sincere religious for not just those who believe in the introduction beliefs that mean a lot to them, but those beliefs of same-sex marriage but all of us. Of course, should not impact on a law that affects some people argue that we are out of step with everyone. Since when does religious freedom the rest of the United Kingdom and that what mean that you can blatantly discriminate has happened in Great Britain should also against fellow citizens? The very concept of happen here. However, there are times when it personal freedom means that, if we do not all is right to be different. have it, none of us does.
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Just the other day, I was speaking about the asked where I was during the fight for equal issue with an elderly gentleman from my area rights, I will be more than proud to say that I who would describe himself as a committed was there. Christian. He said to me, "Megan, the way I see it is that, if you are using the Bible to hate Mrs Foster: I oppose the motion brought by people, you are using it wrong". I thought that Sinn Féin not out of love and respect for the that was quite a profound statement for him to homosexual community in Northern Ireland but make. for its own cynical party political posturing. Comments from Chris Lytle are, of course, also The motion is about civil marriage, and it is sad disgraceful, but some would say that that is that I already know that there will be all sorts of more about his party's desperation in East ridiculous arguments made as a distraction Belfast than the debate in the House today. from that throughout the debate. I think that people should be careful with their words, The motion is couched in the usual Sinn Féin- because what happens in here has a direct speak of equality. The call for equality impact on people's lives out there. This is suggests that there are not equal rights for gay about dignity and human rights. Gay and people in relationships, and that is, of course, lesbian people do not want special treatment. factually wrong. We have civil partnerships in They do not want different rights from those that Northern Ireland, which allow persons of the straight people already have. They just want same sex to acknowledge their commitment to equality under the law. each other in relationships. Civil partners in Northern Ireland enjoy the same rights as Adoption rights are another element of the couples in a same-sex marriage in England. wider debate. The narrative that a child needs a man and a woman in order to be raised We should remember that Sinn Féin's equality properly is completely false. In reality, all that a agenda is not all that it would seem. It is a child needs is a loving home and environment twisted logic brought forward to demonise those in which to grow up. My mum is from a single- who disagree with it. Any motion from Sinn parent family, and I think that it is insulting to Féin on equality has to be put in the context of single-parent families everywhere to say that a their party president, Gerry Adams, in child needs a mother and a father. In fact, it is Enniskillen a couple of months ago. I apologise insulting to all families to say that. to the House for the use of foul language, but, referring to this party, Mr Adams said that The sad reality is that, because of the equality is being used as a "Trojan Horse" to intimidation that they would face, there are "break these bastards". When it tried to murder people out there who would rather not live than and bomb us into submission, the IRA did not be openly themselves, and that is an indictment break this community, and it will not succeed in of our entire society. We cannot stop until we its false equality agenda either. For that is what have achieved full legislative equality that it is: false. extends the same rights, privileges and protection to all. None of us can judge or To the gay community, I say: "I respect you. In quantify true love. Sexuality is not a choice and many individual cases, you are my friends and I neither are the people that we love. We should enjoy social fellowship, but don't allow Sinn let people who love each other be together in Féin to suck you into their agenda. Remember the way that other couples are able to: people it is themselves alone. As apologists for some such as my friends, some of whom are here of the most heinous crimes in Northern Ireland, today. they have zero credibility to campaign on any issue of equality." Despite another abuse of the petition of concern from the DUP, I encourage all I know that many gay people have been subject progressively minded people to do the right to homophobic attacks because they are in a thing today, and support the motion. Of course, minority. I know what it is like to live as part of we have to recognise that marriage is just one a minority community. I know what it is like to of the many battles that need to be fought in the be forced from my home because we did not overall fight for LGBT equality. We have seen agree with the mainstream view in our blatant, often DUP-led discrimination against neighbourhood. I empathise with those victims the LGBT community in recent times, whether it of homophobic attacks. Those are wrong on is the blood ban, adoption rights or the so- every level, just as my forced exodus from my called conscience clause. There is a long battle home at the age of eight was wrong. However, ahead of us, and the reality is that those who you will not hear Sinn Féin campaigning for me will vote against this today will be on the wrong and others like me, because it sponsored such side of history. In years to come, when I am actions.
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This is the fourth time that this motion has come sisters. There is no doubt about that. It will not to the Assembly, and it causes distress every be today, and it will not happen if we sit back time. It causes distress to those who support and do nothing. It is why we continue to the institution of marriage. Many have phoned, champion the rights of our LGBT community emailed or called with me, absolutely distressed and why we continue to bring this motion to the at the prospect of redefinition. Frankly, it also Floor time and time again. We will do so until causes distress to the LGBT community, as it we are blue in the face and until it is successful. raises unrealistic expectations every time the motion comes back to the House. Of course, Danny Kinahan belittled the motion as party Sinn Féin does not care that it causes politics but went on to say that he had not really widespread distress; in fact, that adds to its taken the time to think about the issues before. day. That shows exactly why it is important to bring the motion: it makes people have a think. I Finally, those who support marriage and also suggest that Danny talks to his party oppose its redefinition have been labelled colleague Harold McKee in south Down "homophobic" by those in the House and because Harold certainly needs to take the time outside it. Such an expression is, of course, to think as well. That is why these motions are lazy politics and lazy journalism. Indeed, it is very important. It is also why the marriage dangerous politics and dangerous journalism. referendum in the South is very important. It is Unlike the party opposite, I have a consistent another welcome stage on the road to equality record on opposing violence against anyone, across this island, and I look forward to being regardless of their sexuality, their race, or their able to campaign with my comrades in the religious or political opinion. If respect and South once the Westminster campaign is over tolerance are to be the order of the day, it is a in a couple of weeks. two-way street. To be clear, I and my party are willing to play our part, and I hope that there are Nelson McCausland said that he is wedded to those in the LGBT community who are willing to the traditional and original concept of marriage, display respect and tolerance for those of us but even a cursory glance at the evolution of who believe in marriage. the definition of marriage will show that it has changed throughout the ages. I know that 1.30 pm Nelson is not the biggest fan of evolution, but surely, if we keep bringing this message back, Mr Hazzard: Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann the progressive voices in the party will come to Comhairle. I welcome and support the motion. the fore; people like Pam Cameron, who stood up and realised that Jim Wells was wrong and Our society in the North has undoubtedly been distanced herself from those comments. We rocked over the weekend as a result of the need to see more progressive voices from the DUP to stand up for our brothers and sisters. actions and words of the outgoing Health Minister, Jim Wells; but let me put on record my genuine hope that Jim and his family take the Mr Allister: Will the Member give way? time over the next number of weeks to move on to a better place for him and for the health of his Mr Hazzard: Yes, I will give way. Go ahead. wife. Mr Allister: I have listened with interest to the We now need to hear from the DUP that it has Member. Does that mean that, by the same not just heard the huge backlash from local token, he condemns and rejects that which the people but has listened as well. The days of archbishop of the Catholic Church, Archbishop vilifying and attacking our LGBT brothers and Eamon Martin, wrote to Assembly Members in sisters are over. As communities across the respect of this debate? He very carefully points world modernise and look to sweep away any out that the motion on same-sex marriage vestiges of archaic discrimination and undermines a key foundation of the common inequality, we, too, must look to show good. He says: leadership and legislate for equality on all issues across all parts of society. "We say this both as a matter of human reason and of religious conviction. We When I was graduating from university, the believe that the union of a 'man and a keynote speaker told us to go forth and change woman' in marriage open to the procreation society, that oppositional voices would be of children is a gift from God who created us strong but that the insatiable desire for progress male and female". would ultimately win the day. He was 100% right. We will see marriage equality across this Mr Speaker: Order. island for our gay and lesbian brothers and
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of absolutely no benefit to any section of our Mr Allister: He goes on to say that — community, least of all the LGBT community, which is being deliberately used by Sinn Féin
Mr Speaker: Order. for perceived political advantage.
I choose to speak not as a Minister or, indeed, Mr Allister: — it is an abuse of equality law to on behalf of the Ulster Unionist Party. The talk in equal terms. House will know that my party believes that issues of this nature are matters of personal Mr Speaker: Order. Interventions should be conscience. Therefore, although called as an short. You know that. Ulster Unionist, I speak in a personal capacity, and it is a matter of regret that Members from Mr Allister: Does he also repudiate the all political parties are not allowed the liberty to archbishop? speak freely according to their conscience on this issue. Mr Speaker: Order. In previous debates on this matter, I made clear Mr Hazzard: I thank the Member for his my opposition to any change in the current intervention. I tend not to reply to statements, legislation in order to allow for same-sex but it is a welcome development to see the marriage. That remains my position. It is a Member sticking up for the rights of the Catholic position based on my religious beliefs and is Church and being so interested in its press consistent with the teaching of my Church — releases. The bishop has every right to the Presbyterian Church — and also the comment on this. I do not agree with what the publicly expressed views of other Churches, bishop said on the matter. We are dealing including, as we have heard, the Roman today specifically with civil marriage. A number Catholic Church and the Church of Ireland. of people have touched on that. I am not Finally, it is a position that I believe is saying that the bishop was doing this, but fundamentally consistent with the teaching of various parties in this Chamber tend to resort to holy scripture. What is of importance to me in weaponising scripture when it comes to these this debate is not the teaching of any Church debates. I think that it is a retreat into the world but the teaching of scripture itself. It is clear to of scripture. I do not think that it does anything me and my understanding of scripture that to help them. They know that there is no there should be no change in the current empirical evidence to back up their case so situation. they resort back to text that is thousands of years old, they distort the meaning of it in In past debates on this subject, I have various ways, and they saturate society with highlighted my clear view on the clear twisted logic that does nothing but hold us back. differences that exist in the teachings of the Church and the law of the land as both define Finally, I want to touch on the issue of how this marriage. The separation of church and state, would redefine marriage. It is a complete therefore, becomes of extreme importance. fallacy. The suffragettes did not redefine voting The state has no right to dictate the terms of practices. You only have to look around this religious marriage to the Church. The state has Building to see that there are still not enough created the mechanisms under which same-sex women in politics. The black Americans did not civil partnerships can be enacted with redefine how we eat out; they only wanted a protections under the law which, in most cases, seat at the table, and our lesbian, gay and are equivalent to the responsibilities, rights, bisexual community only want a seat at the obligations and benefits enjoyed by married table of marriage. They do not want to redefine heterosexual couples. In my view, it is neither it; they simply want a piece of the cake. sensible nor desirable to allow the state to interfere in the religious institution of marriage simply for political convenience. Mr Kennedy: At the outset, I want to make it plain that I oppose the motion. This is yet Redefining marriage would have far-reaching another debate — the fourth — on this issue in consequences for our entire society. a very short time. It is very clear to everyone Furthermore, I do not believe that there is today that the decision of this House will not widespread public support in Northern Ireland change, not least as a consequence of the for such a proposal. In holding my view, I do petition of concern tabled. I say to the sponsors not believe that I should be regarded as of the motion that they are guilty of engaging in homophobic, and, indeed, any suggestion a highly cynical political exercise and, would offend and abhor me. I do not disparage undoubtedly, an electoral exercise that will be people in the LGBT community, many of whom
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I count as personal friends, nor is it my role or on Human Rights have been interpreted practice to be judgemental, but for the reasons judicially in relation to equal marriage, so they that I have set out, which are personal and should be the template and the standard that deeply held convictions that I cannot and will we uphold. However, in so doing, I confirm the not set aside, I remain opposed to this words of my colleague from Derry Mr Eastwood proposal. that recognising equal marriage can be accommodated in a way that also recognises Mr Attwood: Save for Jim Wells's colleagues in moral tenets and the theological and faith views the DUP, I am probably one of those who has of many in our community. I say to the DUP known him, in the political world, for longest that, in making those arguments, this is not a because we were at college in Queen's temporary response; it is a permanent together 35 years ago. My sense of the man is guarantee going forward. that, just as he carried his responsibilities as Health Minister heavily, I think that, in the last I express some regret about the contribution couple of days, he has probably carried the made by the proposer of the motion. We are a issue that has arisen heavily. For those party that comes from the tradition of reasons, whilst I think that the decision is the democratic dissent: it is at the heart of what right one, I convey to him and his family my was created through democratic struggle in this personal good wishes. part of the island of Ireland after all the years of inequality. Dissent is part of our creed, and we I will make a number of points about this issue. welcome and encourage it, unlike her party. If there is one thing that we should draw from That dissent on issues of freedom of the last two or three days, the last two or three conscience means that our party allows people months or the last two or three years and not to vote in favour of equal marriage. Our decades, it is this: if our society is not based on party upholds the right of dissent on an issue of respectful relationships, we end up in a conscience. situation of not just disrespect but of division and denial. If this debate is meant to mean 1.45 pm anything, in the context of the last number of days and in the context of all our learning over Finally, to be talked to in this Chamber about the last number of decades, it shows that, if the the denial of rights of others, when people in issue and all the other issues that crowd in on our society were denied rights because of the our society are not based on respectful uniform they wore — relationships, we end up ill-serving our community and our society. You can see that Mr Speaker: Order. The Member's time is up. across the full range of political and policy I am sorry. issues that we face at the moment and that we will face after the election, not least in the Mr Attwood: — their religion or their politics — resolution of the parades disputes. The one thing that we have to conclude from all of this is that all these debates have to be informed by Mr Speaker: The Member's time is up, please. an approach that is about respectful I am on my feet. relationships. Otherwise, difference is forced to the point of division, and people's rights are Mr Attwood: — is utter hypocrisy. forced to the point of denial. Mr Speaker: I call the Minister. We just have A number of years ago, I read a book that time before Question Time, if that would help. argued that the future of Ireland had to move away from what it referred to as: Mr Hamilton (The Minister of Finance and Personnel): Thank you, Mr Speaker. I join with “the bloodlines of ethnicity to the lifelines of the many contributors who wished Jim Wells human rights”. and his wife well at this difficult time for them and their wider family. I would, however, go I do not completely agree with that analysis further than many and condemn the vile because I believe that our different personal abuse and threats that he and his backgrounds are part of the richness and family have received, particularly on social diversity of this island, but I agree with the media, in the last number of days. argument that the society that we have to create here and elsewhere has to be based The baseball commentator Yogi Berra once around the "lifelines of human rights". That is famously said: the approach that the SDLP takes to this issue. Articles 12 and 14 of the European Convention
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"It's like déjà vu all over again." the United Kingdom have done so. However, the position in the UK is by no means unique, I know how he felt. This is the fourth time this and other jurisdictions, such as the United subject has been debated in this Assembly States, New Zealand and the Netherlands, term, and it is déjà vu all over again. have territories that have not introduced same- Effectively, it is the same motion, tabled by the sex marriage. Furthermore, Northern Ireland is same people, with the same MLAs speaking, not alone in the world in not having legislated saying the same things, with most probably the for same-sex marriage. There are close to 200 same outcome. countries in the world; only 17 allow same-sex marriage. A further 30, of which we are one, I note that the call to action in the motion is have civil partnerships with similar protections. directed at the Executive as a whole. However, Notable countries that have not approved as the subject falls within the remit of my same-sex marriage include Australia, Germany Department, I agreed to respond. In saying that and Italy, and it is the same in one third of the I believe that this motion will suffer the same states in the US. The list of countries that have fate as the three previous motions, I am not not introduced same-sex marriage is much seeking to be curt or dismissive. I am merely longer than the list that have. recognising the fact that most Members have voted, and will continue to vote, according to Some states now provide for same-sex their conscience, no matter how much pressure marriage following a democratic vote or judicial is brought to bear. ruling, and I respect the position in those states. Next month, the Republic of Ireland will decide There would appear to be a view that claims of whether it wants to amend its constitution to inequality, if repeated often enough, will allow for same-sex marriage. Again, I will inevitably succeed. When the last motion was respect the outcome in that jurisdiction. debated, on 29 April 2014, there was talk of However, comparisons with other jurisdictions second-class citizens, marginalisation and are, ultimately, of limited value. This Assembly discrimination. The reality is, I am happy to does not, and should not, simply align itself with say, somewhat different from the rhetoric. other legislatures. It has a duty to question, Same-sex couples in Northern Ireland are not challenge, probe and produce laws that take denied the opportunity to live in a loving, account of the needs and interests of all our secure, stable and permanent relationship with citizens. A major reason why we have all the protections and benefits that such a devolution is so that we can have different laws relationship can bring. They can do just that by from other parts of the United Kingdom to suit entering into a civil partnership, and many have. the views of the people of Northern Ireland and our circumstances. If you choose to focus on negative concepts, such as marginalisation and discrimination, you The argument for the motion and a redefinition will inevitably lower self-esteem and create of marriage is, again, grounded in equality. unnecessary divisions. Different approaches This, however, is not an equality issue. People are not lesser or discriminatory, and it is wrong in Northern Ireland have an equal opportunity to to imply that a civil partnership is an inferior enter into a committed relationship with all the status. Our marriage law recognises the unique benefits that that entails. Opposite-sex couples relationship between a man and a woman, just can do that through marriage, and same-sex as our law on civil partnerships recognises the couples can do it through civil partnerships. It unique relationship between two people of the has been acknowledged that a same-sex same sex. marriage in England and Wales confers the same — not different, not more, but the same Those who criticise civil partnerships are quick — benefits as a same-sex civil partnership. to suggest that other jurisdictions have a Equality, therefore, is not the issue. greater respect for diversity because they have introduced same-sex marriage. However, such Article 16 of the United Nations Universal suggestions should not be taken at face value Declaration of Human Rights, as upheld by the as same-sex marriage in some jurisdictions has UN Human Rights Committee, defends a not resulted in certain restrictions being lifted for traditional view of marriage. In European law, same-sex couples. Such restrictions are not, of article 12 of the European Convention on course, highlighted because they undermine Human Rights also upholds that definition, and the arguments that some prefer to present. the European Court of Human Rights has deemed the definition of marriage to be not a Critics are also quick to suggest that Northern matter of equality but a matter for individual Ireland must introduce same-sex marriage state law. The Northern Ireland Human Rights because the other constituent jurisdictions of Commission highlighted that the international
21 Monday 27 April 2015 treaties protect the right to marry but has corners of the House. As we debate the issue conceded: in this place and outside, whether for or against, the true meaning of tolerance should be at the "The restriction of marriage to opposite-sex forefront of our minds and reflected in the couples does not violate the international language that we use. I oppose the motion. standards and this is clear from both the International treaties and the jurisprudence Mr Allister: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. of the European Court of Human Rights and Can the House have an explanation as to why it the United Nations Human Rights appears that the 90 minutes allocated for this Committee." debate will not be utilised? Why, in the calling of Members, if my mathematics is correct, were It is clear, therefore, that the United Nations, twice as many people called to speak in favour Europe and our own Human Rights of the motion as to oppose it? Commission all agree that this is not an issue of equality. Mr Speaker: There are two points. The Minister was called when there were barely the The motion uses the language of religious 15 minutes left that he was entitled to to tolerance, and it suggests that suitable respond to the debate. In the debate, there protections can be afforded to people of faith. were contributions from people speaking However, the proposed protections relate only against the motion and from those speaking for to the clergy and religious organisations. There the motion. To that extent, it was a balanced is no offer to protect the religious beliefs of discussion. others, such as teachers or registrars. The House will now take its ease until after There is a tendency to portray opposition to Question Time. The first person to speak after same-sex marriage as evidence of an Question Time will be Daithí McKay to make a underlying animus toward the lesbian and gay winding-up speech on the debate. community, and that is wholly unjust. As I have said in the House, opposition to same-sex Mr B McCrea: On a point of order, Mr Speaker, marriage is not grounded on opposition to any under Standing Order 17. I understand that this particular type of relationship but on support for is a cross-community debate and that the vote the traditional, long-standing, centuries-old will be taken on that basis. I respectfully draw definition of marriage and a genuine belief that your attention to the fact that only one unionist our current legislative framework achieves a fair spoke in favour of the motion and quite a few balance between the competing interests. spoke against it. I would have preferred to have had the opportunity to add to the balance In all the correspondence that I received in of the debate. advance of this debate from those opposing a redefinition of marriage, which far outweighed any correspondence in favour, none of the Mr Speaker: I have considerable sympathy for language used by good people from across this the position. Indeed, there are a few Members country has been nasty, bitter or aimed who had their name down for the debate whom personally at members of the gay and lesbian I would love to have had the time to bring in, community. However, those people are often because I think that they would have added to painted and portrayed as bigots by those who, the value of the debate. However, I have to ironically, want to redefine marriage on the work with the Business Committee's decision. basis of tolerance. I have said this before in the It allocated 90 minutes and allowed 15 minutes House, but it is worth repeating: I was always for a response from the Minister. It allowed 10 taught that tolerance was when you disagreed minutes to propose and 10 minutes to make a with people but respected their right to have a winding-up speech, and every other Member different position to you. Today, unfortunately, called to speak was given a five-minute slot, it seems that, for some, when you fail to fall in which included interventions. Some Members line with their thinking, you are the intolerant did not use the entire five minutes, and some one. abused the privilege and spoke for longer than the five minutes, despite my efforts to move Opposing a redefinition of marriage is not them along because I was anxious to include bigotry, narrow-mindedness or even those who had taken the time to put their intolerance. It is a view held by many — quite names on the list. I have to apologise that that was not possible in the debate. possibly, the majority — in Northern Ireland. Those people are members of the Presbyterian Church, the Catholic Church and no Church at The debate stood suspended. all. They are Members on all sides and in all
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2.00 pm ashamed of attacks where they happen in our community. Does he agree that the absence of such a strategy is a hindrance to the efforts to Oral Answers to Questions combat this type of intolerance? Can he update the House on when, he thinks, a strategy will be Office of the First Minister and published? deputy First Minister Mr Bell: There are pieces of work under way with the sector. I am not sure that the people Racial Equality Strategy perpetrating the attacks are necessarily looking to a strategy for the reason why they behave in 1. Mr Swann asked the First Minister and such an abhorrent way. We have sought to deputy First Minister what steps are being taken meet the groups concerned. We have listened to bring forward a racial equality strategy. (AQO carefully to their needs and aspirations. There 8004/11-15) is tremendous local work going on across Northern Ireland, specifically in our Mr P Robinson (The First Minister): Mr communities, to make this a welcoming place. It Speaker, with your permission, I will ask junior is vital that all those voices are brought together Minister Jonathan Bell to answer the question. to deliver a strategy that delivers most for those for whom it is intended. We will not be found wanting in producing that. Mr Bell (Junior Minister, Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister): Racial equality and good race relations remain key Mr Spratt: I thank the Minister for his answer. goals for the Department. Recent race hate He will be aware that South Belfast has some attacks are a brutal reminder that we need to good examples of community engagement on strive to achieve those goals and not to take race issues. What work is being done to them for granted. Attacks, whilst relatively few improve and increase engagement throughout communities on race issues? in number, cause fear, alarm and despondency among our minority communities. They shame all of us, yet they reinforce our determination to Mr Bell: The Member is correct: there is some create a society that allows people of all tremendous work being done right across backgrounds to live here in peace and to be Belfast, specifically in the South Belfast area. treated with respect and dignity. I look to the Belfast Mela as a key example of We are working on a strategy that will genuinely how the Indian community has led the way in tackle the barriers that stand in the way of bringing in the many other cultures that people feeling that they belong here. We represent so much, have contributed so much, received a large number of responses to last have put so much into the economy and have year's 16-week public consultation. We had 97 made a net gain contribution from the minority written responses from groups and individuals ethnic sector to our economy and our society. and 303 requests for consideration of specific It has made us the diverse and rich society that strategies for Roma and for Traveller people. we are. When I first went to the Belfast Mela in, Forty-nine online questionnaires were I think, August 2011, I was overwhelmed by the completed, and we had feedback from six numbers present. Yet, year on year, the public meetings and other meetings with numbers are getting bigger, and the academics, trade unions and other key involvement by the whole community, from right stakeholders. The analysis of all of that is across Belfast, is now so strong that you have being finalised, and officials have met a large to queue for a long time to get in. That is the number of representatives of the sector to hear work the community sector is doing on further reflection and input and to clarify what integration, celebrating diversity and enjoying the key issues are. That engagement, along the society that we are today in Northern with the analysis of the consultation responses, Ireland, which is enriched by the diversity. We will inform the final strategy. In conclusion, we hope that our strategy and the minority ethnic want to produce a strategy that embodies both development fund, which we kept at its current the aspirations and the everyday needs of the level despite all the financial crises and families and individuals who have come to live pressure, will be our commitment to the minority here and who have contributed so much to our ethnic sector and to the community sector to community. continue to build on those good race relations.
Mr Swann: I thank the Minister for his response Mr Lynch: Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann and agree with him that we should all be Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire don
23 Monday 27 April 2015 fhreagra sin. I thank the Minister for his us understand the voice of many in the minority answer. I think that we all agree that political ethnic development sector. I want to record my leadership is needed at the highest level to thanks for all her assistance. tackle the growing problem of racism. Does the Minister agree that his party's failure to distance The direct answer to the question is that the itself from racist views and, indeed, previous invitation for new applications opened on 27 comments by his party leader fuel intolerance, March, and the closing date was today. As I racism and disrespect towards other cultures said earlier, we are pleased to confirm that, and races? despite all the financial pressures, the minority ethnic development fund is £1·1 million for the Mr Bell: It is difficult for those of us who have 2015-16 financial year. On top of that, we have come through it all. We do not want to look put together a crisis fund of £100,000 to help back to the past, but I look at the number of those most in need or crisis. We did that, as people murdered or maimed by the republican well as holding a number of drop-in workshops movement, which went across Europe shooting in Belfast, Londonderry and Craigavon to help people, shooting children and everything else. the groups with the application process. We If the Member wants to look back, he has hope to let the applicants know the outcome of enough significant material in the abuse of their applications by the middle of next month. people that his republican movement was involved in without pointing the finger at As the Member said, a number of requests anybody else. were made, mostly from those who had been in receipt of minority ethnic development funding, From the First Minister down in our party, we to argue for the funding to simply be extended have completely condemned all recent racist for a further period. The Member will also be and hate incidents. When I am with the First aware that other organisations supported the Minister with the Islamic community, with the opening of a new call for applications to those Indian community or wherever we are, we give who had not been successful previously or who a consistent and strong message. I do not were involved in work in that area but had not know where he gets those messages from, been funded. Some of the organisations were because they are not being given to me by the new and some were not so new, and we minority ethnic development community. When wanted to see which of them could potentially we have seen a problem, the First Minister, serve their community and broader society well along with us and our officials, has worked with with the help of funding. We felt that it was the minority ethnic sector. We recently fairer to allow everyone to apply and have the convened a special sitting of the good relations same opportunity. Options were put to us, such board at which we looked at what immediate as the one that the Member suggested of just action all of us in OFMDFM could take to tackle continuing — race hate. That programme board has met on a number of occasions, and it will do so again, Mr Speaker: I advise the Minister that his two because we want to work together to show that minutes are up. that minority of cases whre there are race hate attacks — they are a minority — do not Mr Bell: — for a further period. We took the represent us or any party in the House. decision that, on balance, it was appropriate to Frankly, silly slurs like that do not help anybody. open it to all the organisations.
Ms Lo: The ethnic minority fund for 2013-15 Childcare ended on 31 March, and it is not known to the organisations when the new round of funding will finish. Obviously, the two- or three-month 2. Mr McGlone asked the First Minister and gap in funding will negatively impact on the deputy First Minister what more their ability of ethnic minority organisations to help Department can do to introduce affordable and flexible childcare. (AQO 8005/11-15) finalise the racial equality strategy. Will the Minister consider extending funding to all the organisations that have received funding for the Mr P Robinson: I would like to begin by giving previous two years until the outcome of the an overview of what we have already done to funding round is known? introduce affordable and flexible childcare. As you know, the first phase of the Executive's Mr Bell: First, I offer a sincere word of thanks to childcare strategy was launched back in Anna Lo. She has been of tremendous September 2013. It included a number of key assistance to us in the office and has met us first actions to address the main childcare regularly. She has real credibility and can help needs that had been identified through research and consultation.
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might be less important than the one he has School-age childcare was the greatest area of mentioned. need identified. The school-age childcare grant scheme, which we launched just over a year Mrs Hale: I thank the First Minister for his ago, was developed to create new high-quality answers so far. First Minister, you talked about school-age childcare places and sustain the how childcare places should be flexible and suit places we already have. To date, the grant working parents. How many childcare places scheme has allocated £2 million to 50 do you hope to create under the framework? successful school-age childcare projects. Those projects will sustain or create 2.15 pm approximately 1,500 low-cost quality childcare places. Mr P Robinson: In my initial response, I We expect to grant aid further school-age indicated that we had already identified projects childcare projects before the summer and for 1,500 places. When the various actions launch a third call for applications to the grant have been completed, we hope to create in the scheme in the autumn. This will result in further region of 8,000 places in the overall schemes. low-cost childcare places being created or That would turn out to be a lower number per sustained. In parallel to that, work to develop head of population than in some other parts of the full childcare strategy has been taken the United Kingdom, but research also shows forward on a co-design basis, with close that there is a much higher level of home engagement between officials, the childcare support, through grandparents and so forth, in sector and childcare stakeholders. We aim to Northern Ireland than there is in other parts of the United Kingdom. put the full strategy and its actions out to public consultation in the coming weeks and launch it in the autumn. Again, we expect that those Mrs Overend: What exactly is the role for additional actions will further increase the private-sector childcare providers, and how do supply of low-cost childcare services, including they qualify for funding? flexible childcare services to meet the needs of parents who work unconventional hours. Mr P Robinson: The main objective of the Bright Start key first actions was to support Mr McGlone: Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann affordable models of childcare. Private Comhairle. Agus mo bhuíochas leis an Aire childcare providers aim to make a profit, which chomh maith. My thanks to the Minister. Has is either reinvested in the building that they are the Office of the First Minister and deputy First using or given for staff wage increases or to Minister raised the plan to cut preschool funding supplement directors' remuneration. Therefore, with the Minister of Education? That has they were not viewed as suitable for the first caused great concerns for parents and key actions. However, we have committed to employees in the childcare sector, including the looking at ways of supporting small private Early Years organisation. Would his providers in the substantive childcare strategy, Department be prepared to support a bid for providing they fulfil our aim of affordability for extra funding for that sector in the June parents. monitoring round? Ms Sugden: Why has the First Minister's Mr P Robinson: I share the Member's Department failed to spend £8 million of the £12 concerns and have met the stakeholders million that was allocated for childcare? involved. The Education Minister is also aware of the issue, and we have discussed it at an Mr P Robinson: Much of the application comes Executive meeting. to us, so it is based on the applications that we receive. The deputy First Minister and I were The Finance Minister will undoubtedly take on somewhat disappointed that some other board any bids that he receives in monitoring Departments had either not made applications rounds, but we need to be careful. I see it in at all or did not make sufficient applications to the work, or art if you like, of some Government use up that funding. However, the strategy is Ministers to hold back issues from their very clear; we are now basing it on the principle spending plans that they feel the Executive that we want to provide the best and most would not want to see dropped, in the hope that affordable low-cost childcare to parents. The they can pull in additional resources to their Member will be aware of other schemes that budget for that purpose. The Finance Minister move away from the voucher scheme to a tax- will want to be satisfied that the Department based support system. That, again, will cannot fund that priority and will determine what considerably help parents in Northern Ireland in other priorities the Department has that perhaps the uptake of schemes.
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Summer Camps It is right that we speak out on all of those issues. It is equally right that we look at the 3. Mr Newton asked the First Minister and sectarianism in our society, no matter where it deputy First Minister for an update on the is displayed or what its source may be. It is Together: Building a United Community right, therefore, that we were able to garner an signature projects, including the number of additional £10 million of funds for T:BUC and, summer camps that will be rolled out this year. indeed, a further £3 million on top of that from (AQO 8006/11-15) the change fund. All that we do within that scope is related to improving relations in every part of our society. I personally take the view Mr P Robinson: Work is progressing across that the best way to deal with sectarianism and the seven headline actions arising from the start getting reconciliation is to concentrate on Together: Building a United Community the youngest so that they might grow up not (T:BUC) strategy. Following a second call for looking across a fence at somebody who is applications to the shared education campuses different from them but at somebody who can programme, six proposals are currently being be a friend. assessed, covering more than 20 schools, with decisions due in June 2015. Progress on the United Youth programme has seen 50 Mr Lyttle: Two years on, what progress has organisations proceed to a further development been made on the T:BUC commitment to roll stage, following which, 10 pilot schemes will out a buddy scheme in publicly run nursery and primary schools in Northern Ireland? progress to delivery later in 2015.
A total of five urban village locations have now Mr P Robinson: The buddy scheme is not a been announced. There has been considerable signature project under T:BUC, but it is an stakeholder engagement in relation to the lower action. However, the Department of Education Newtownards Road urban village scheme, is in the lead on that and has the responsibility which the Member may take a particular for it, so the question could be more properly interest in. The first social housing put to the Education Minister. development under the shared neighbourhoods programme at Ravenhill Road has opened and Mr Kinahan: It is good to hear about the a community cohesion plan is being developed. summer camps, but will the First Minister It is envisaged that nine out of 10 of the confirm that the 100 camps that he is talking remaining sites will be under construction about are all new? Will the camps be spread during this financial year. throughout the summer holidays so that they are not all jammed in at the beginning or the Work to date has reduced the number of end? interface barriers from 59 to 52, and engagement is ongoing in 40 of the 52 Mr P Robinson: I could not possibly know the remaining areas. The summer camps pilot answer to his question yet because it is out for programme opened for applications on 15 April application, and we are waiting for the projects 2015 with a closing date of 8 May 2015. We to be fully identified. If it is helpful to the are on target to meet our commitment to deliver Member, as soon as we have identified those 100 summer camp pilots in 2015. A 12-week projects, I will make sure that he gets a copy, pilot project for the cross-community youth and he can make his own judgement on how sports programme ended on 31 March. The new or how widely spread they are. programme seeks to use sport in a central role to break down divisions in society and to deliver Sexual Orientation Strategy a good relations programme to young people drawn from all sections of our community. An evaluation of the pilot will help to inform the 4. Mr McMullan asked the First Minister and further roll-out of the programme. deputy First Minister what assurances they can give that a sexual orientation strategy will be Mr Newton: I thank the First Minister for that completed and implemented without delay. (AQO 8007/11-15) very detailed outline. Will he tell the House how much money will be spent on addressing sectarianism, particularly around the signature Mr P Robinson: Mr Speaker, with your projects in the T:BUC strategy? permission, I will ask junior Minister Jonathan Bell to answer this question.
Mr P Robinson: My colleague the junior Minister spoke earlier of the concerns and Mr Bell: We have regularly stated our issues arising from racial tensions and hatred. commitment to producing a sexual orientation
26 Monday 27 April 2015 strategy in the Assembly and in the text of the institutions such as the University of Cambridge good relations strategy, 'Together: Building a that, when it comes to a child thriving at home, United Community'. To achieve that it is all about the degree of engagement and commitment, we asked officials to commence a quality of support that the child gets, not about public consultation process. The first phase of whether there is a single parent, mother and that process ended in June last year. The father or two parents of the same sex? analysis of responses to that 12-week consultation has been completed, and the Mr Bell: There is a lot of research on child results are being used to inform the content of a development. What we know is that children draft sexual orientation strategy. It is our thrive best where there is stability, security and intention to develop the strategy using the love. In fact, the greatest gift that we can give outcomes-based approach. That view was all our children is the gift of time to make sure shared at the most recent meeting of the sexual that they grow up nurtured in a secure orientation project team on 15 April 2015. environment where they can develop and fulfil their potential. We should always look towards Work will continue over the coming weeks to best practice in child development. develop outcomes and subsequent indicators with the project team. Once the draft strategy is Mr Lunn: Does the junior Minister agree with finalised, it will be referred to the Committee for others within his party and perhaps without that the Office of the First Minister and deputy First homosexuality is a lifestyle choice? Minister for consideration, before seeking Executive agreement. A further 12-week period of consultation will then take place, and I Mr Bell: This issue has been raised on a anticipate that the sexual orientation strategy number of occasions. It is not for me to will be published after that final phase of determine what a person's sexual orientation is consultation. or how they arrived at it. It is for me, as an MLA and Minister, to recognise the innate dignity and human worth of all people. Regardless of a Mr McMullan: Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann person's colour, religious belief, political opinion Comhairle. I thank the junior Minister for his or sexual orientation, I will always advocate and answer so far. Given recent events, will the stand for the human rights of that individual. In junior Minister confirm that we need a sexual public policy, that is the stance that we will orientation strategy urgently, and will he always take. distance himself from the views expressed by his party colleague Jim Wells? Constituency Consultation
Mr Bell: I will answer the questions in reverse order. Jim Wells has made it clear that his 5. Ms Sugden asked the First Minister and comments on child abuse were inaccurate and deputy First Minister how they ensure their wrong. It is not a DUP view or policy. We Department undertakes appropriate immediately publicly indicated that it was not consultation with relevant stakeholders the DUP view now, nor will it be. concerning specific constituency matters. (AQO 8008/11-15)
Anyone who says that it is because they want to use it for some form of electioneering or Mr P Robinson: Unfortunately, it is difficult to whatever can take that wherever they want to ascertain from the question what is really being go, but it is not helpful to people who are asked. However, consultation takes place looking towards the strategy, particularly given every year on a wide range of issues, some the levels of mental ill health that the sector has affecting all the people of Northern Ireland and come and spoken to me about. Young people others relating to the needs of particular are experiencing not only mental health issues geographic areas, which is what I take the but suicidal ideation. Those are issues that the Member to mean by her reference to specific trans community has spoken to me about in constituency matters. particular. The strategy will be there to try to give best practice to all our people. Let me As the Member implies, it is important that the make it clear that we value the innate human method and scale of consultation is appropriate dignity and worth of every one of our people, to the issue. A variety of methods have been regardless of their background, the colour of increasingly used to maximise the participation their skin or their sexual orientation. of stakeholders in the consultation process. There is also an increasing emphasis on Mr Nesbitt: Does the junior Minister agree with ongoing active engagement between me and indeed with very solid research from Government and citizens in the development of policy from the earliest stages and a move
27 Monday 27 April 2015 away from relying exclusively on set-piece colleagues to remember that we are a political formal consultations. Consultation can party and not a Church. It is the role of therefore range from the traditional method of Churches and faith groups, not political parties, publishing a consultation document to, for to direct people's moral positions. However, it example, roadshows, the facilitation of focus is necessary and, at times, unavoidable for groups and of course direct engagement with parties to take a position on public policy local community interests. matters as they relate to some of these issues.
To stimulate interest and awareness, One of the three core principles of my party is consultation documents and details of formal that everyone is equal under the law and consultation events will also be published equally subject to it. This party will defend the through local media as well as online at legal rights of everyone in our community and Northern Ireland Direct and departmental promote equality of opportunity. My party websites. opposes any form of discrimination, whether it relates to sexual orientation or any other issue. Mr Speaker: I call Ms Sugden for a quick In articulating public policy, we are mindful — I supplementary question. trust that every section of the House will be mindful — of the need for it to be conducted Ms Sugden: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I thank respectfully on all sides. We are dealing with the First Minister for his answer. I have a public policy issues that relate to changing the situation in Portrush where we have a cross- definition of marriage to include same-sex departmental programme on an initiative. I couples. As the law stands, people have the have had a lot of representations from choice of entering into a civil partnership if they constituents who are concerned about the lack are a same-sex couple, or engaging in the of consultation with them. I want to know what ordinance of marriage if they are heterosexual. My party sees no justification for change. influence, if any, the First Minister and his deputy have in respect of influencing Departments to actually seek the views of the Mr Boylan: I thank the Minister for his answer, people who matter. but I do not think that he has actually answered my question. Let me put it this way: will the Mr P Robinson: I do not know the particular Minister outline how such expressed views will case that the Member referred to. If she would not lead to policies that will lead to like to write to me or even to bring a delegation discrimination? I think that recent views will to see the deputy First Minister and me, we are lead to policies that will discriminate against people. Go raibh míle maith agat. both always willing to meet people and hear their views on issues that affect our Department. If it is cross-departmental, it may Mr P Robinson: With these issues, we need to involve another Minister. If the Member wants be very careful to be proportionate in how we to speak to me afterwards, I am happy to see if react to comments. The comment was made we can assist her in making sure that people's by a Minister who, for a considerable number of views are heard. The deputy First Minister and months, carried on his work during the day and I are always willing, when possible, to take sat beside his wife throughout the night as she those on board. has undergone operations and been fighting for her life. Immediately that the Minister made the Mr Speaker: That ends the period for listed comments, he recognised that they were questions, and we move on to 15 minutes of inaccurate. He sought and got the attention of topical questions. the chair of the meeting to make a clarification. After the meeting, he gave a fulsome apology, something that we have not had from others for 2.30 pm the crimes that they have committed in this society. On foot of that, he recognised that the Homophobic Remarks: DUP burden that he carries at present is so great that he needs to take a break from front-line T1. Mr Boylan asked the First Minister and the public life. That being the case, I ask people deputy First Minister, given their responsibility not to take on the characteristics of a lynch mob for equality, how the First Minister proposes to in these matters. The Minister has apologised address the litany of homophobic remarks and indicated that the facts, as he related them, made by DUP representatives in the last were inaccurate. I immediately indicated that number of years. (AQT 2401/11-15) they were not the views of the party now and Mr P Robinson: I recall how, on many nor would they ever be. That is the clearest occasions, my predecessor used to tell party direction of all that I can give: no policy will be based on information that the person who made
28 Monday 27 April 2015 the comment has already indicated that he Mr P Robinson: On a weekly basis, the regards as inaccurate. leaders of the parties have been meeting together with officials, including the head of the Sexual Orientation Strategy: Civil Service, to take forward the issues that Dragged Out some, if not all, agreed at Stormont House and Stormont Castle. Progress has been made on a number of those matters. Indeed, at a recent T2. Ms McCorley asked the First Minister and meeting the Executive dealt with some of the the deputy First Minister whether the First issues relating to the number of Departments, Minister’s party will commit to signing up to a which was part of the Stormont House sexual orientation strategy that tackles Agreement. Decisions have been taken on prejudice, given that it is clear from Jonathan other parts, but it is agreed that they will not be Bell’s earlier remarks that there is an attempt to actioned until welfare has been dealt with. I drag out this issue. (AQT 2402/11-15) think that it is probably fruitless for us to attempt to resolve that before or on foot of a general Mr P Robinson: The Member must have been election, but I hope that there will be listening to a different Jonathan Bell than I was. concentration immediately the election is out of Nothing he said indicated that there was an the way to get that matter resolved because it is intention to drag this issue out. The strategy stopping the flow of the overall issues of undergoing consultation and being prepared in Stormont House. the office will come to the Executive as a whole for approval. I imagine that that will take its Mrs Hale: I thank the First Minister for his own pace as it goes through the issues. I can answer. He talked about the election. Do you, think of a number of issues that are being First Minister, believe that the outcome of the delayed at an Executive level that the Member general election will have any implications for is not enthusiastic to have pushed through but the resolution of welfare reform? that would have a very profound impact on the future of the Assembly and Northern Ireland. Mr P Robinson: If I knew the outcome of the election, there will be issues, I suspect, that will Ms McCorley: Go raibh maith agat. Does the be not substantial in terms of the Labour Party, Minister agree that there is a serious issue of which might change some aspects of it. The public confidence here and that his party needs Labour Party is on record as indicating that it to restore that? Does he also accept that, given would do away with the bedroom tax. I think that one of his Ministers has had to resign, that everybody in the House knows, although there are issues of human rights? Does the some try to say otherwise, that the deputy First LGBT community not have the human right to Minister and I agreed that the bedroom tax be able to get married? would not apply in Northern Ireland. So, it is part of our proposals already to do away with Mr P Robinson: Again, we come back to the the bedroom tax. Therefore, if the rest of the definition of marriage. I suspect that the United Kingdom came up to scratch, as we Assembly discussed that for some considerable have, on that, it would mean that we would get time before Question Time began. The the Barnett consequentials, which would definition of marriage that many of us recognise probably give us an extra £20 million or £23 is that it is an ordinance handed down by God million a year that could be used otherwise. for the procreation of children to ensure that a man and a woman can get married. If there is a I do not think that anybody is quite clear on the same-sex relationship, that is catered for — if I Conservative Party's full intentions, or, at least, can use the term — within the scope of the the detail of its intentions, on further welfare existing law by way of a civil partnership. I changes. I think that it is reluctant to give cannot understand why we have to redefine the details, at least before 7 May, on what those God-given term of marriage to ensure that it may be. It could well be that they will have covers something that already exists under the further implications for Northern Ireland. Where law by way of a civil partnership. the present set of proposals is concerned, the only change that I can see is if the new House Stormont House Agreement: Update of Commons was to vote against having a bedroom tax. That would save us some money that could be applied elsewhere. T3. Mrs Hale asked the First Minister and the deputy First Minister for an update on the implementation of the Stormont House Agreement. (AQT 2403/11-15)
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Programme for Government: We have done a great deal — so much, in fact, Westminster Election Impact that Invest Northern Ireland has exceeded its targets, even though we set targets that were very demanding of it. In that context, what the T4. Lord Morrow asked the First Minister and Executive need to do is to continue on the path the deputy First Minister whether the First that they have been on, which is getting growth Minister believes that the outcome of the into our economy, particularly growth that is Westminster election will have any implications export-led. All of that is important and requires for the Executive's Programme for Government. us, as an Executive, to be investing in the (AQT 2404/11-15) drivers of growth, which include innovation, skills and training, infrastructure in certain Mr P Robinson: The Executive are first going areas, and trying to drive up productivity. That to update their Programme for Government, is what provides real stimulus to the economy, because, after the original Programme for meaning more jobs. From a Treasury point of Government was published, a decision was view, it means that there is more income tax. It taken to extend the term of the Assembly from means that there is more being spent in shops. four to five years. My understanding is that that People's earnings go up. Increasing growth is is moving forward. Members will be able to the way to prosperity. make their comments on that in, I hope, a matter of weeks. Mr Speaker: I call Mr William Humphrey. Mr Humphrey, there may not be time for you to ask On the future Programme for Government, we a supplementary question, so you may want to obviously have to have some knowledge of the swap. comprehensive spending review that a new Government will bring forward in order to know what funds will be available for us to be able to Economy: Sustained Recovery action our Programme for Government. Some of the elements of our Programme for T5. Mr Humphrey asked the First Minister and Government might be improved if there were a the deputy First Minister whether the First statistical advantage gained by the presence of Minister believes that the Northern Ireland Northern Ireland Members of Parliament. I economy has turned the corner and, if so, hope that they would use that not for any selfish whether that recovery can be sustained. (AQT party interest but in the interests of Northern 2405/11-15) Ireland as a whole. In those circumstances, there could be real benefits in a new Mr P Robinson: After 27 consecutive months Parliament. of the claimant count reducing, it is clear that we are more than turning the corner. Based on Lord Morrow: I thank the First Minister for his the labour force survey, we have an fairly comprehensive and detailed response. unemployment level of 6%. It indicates that On the next Programme for Government, does more jobs are being created in Northern the First Minister believe that there is the Ireland. potential to create more wealth and prosperity for the people of Northern Ireland? I go back to the fact that Invest Northern Ireland had committed to create 25,000 jobs, and we Mr P Robinson: Any time that I get a question ended up with, I think, over 37,000 jobs being like that, I respond first by pointing out just what created. That is a massive increase on the we have succeeded in doing, because we have number that was set out in our Programme for a very negative media in Northern Ireland that Government. That is equally true for are happy to tell us all the things that we are not investment over that period, which was targeted doing or are doing wrong but slow to tell us that to be £1 billion over the period and turned out to there is more foreign direct investment per head be £2·5 billion. So we are exceeding targets, of population coming to Northern Ireland than we are on the road to recovery, and I believe anywhere else in the United Kingdom, including that it can be sustained. London and the prosperous south-east. The media do not tell you that Northern Ireland has 2.45 pm had more investment than at any time in its history, even against the backcloth of a global Mr Speaker: That ends the period for topical recession. Nor do they tell you that we have questions. I ask the House to take its ease for the lowest taxes in the whole of the United a moment while we change the top Table and Kingdom. Nor do they tell you that we have the Minister's table. had more infrastructure build in Northern Ireland than at other times in our history.
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(Mr Deputy Speaker [Mr Dallat] in the Chair) the Stormont House Agreement. One of the reasons for that was our suspicion from past Social Development experience that there might have been a dual process and discussions not involving all five parties. Does the Minister think that it is in any Welfare Reform: Sinn Féin Meetings way acceptable that the first time three of the five parties who sat at the Stormont House 1. Mr Nesbitt asked the Minister for Social Agreement talks found out about this raft of Development on what dates, since 23 private papers was when Sinn Féin published December 2014, did he or his officials meet them? with representatives of Sinn Féin to discuss welfare reform or any associated element Mr Storey: I thank the Member for his relating to the Stormont House Agreement. supplementary question. Of course, the (AQO 8018/11-15) Member should not fall into a trap when considering the document that was produced by Mr Storey (The Minister for Social Sinn Féin, which, ironically, is called 'Welfare: Development): In the weeks immediately The Facts'. Careful reading of some of the following the Stormont Castle agreement on content and innuendo in that document will welfare reform on 19 December 2014, the focus clearly indicate that it is nothing near the facts. of my work and that of my officials was on the I advise the leader of the Ulster Unionist Party development of an Executive paper which set to be very careful about believing everything he out the main terms of the agreement and the reads that comes from that particular associated costs. Sinn Féin representatives organisation. were consulted on the content of the draft Executive paper as part of the normal Mechanisms already exist through the normal consultation process. That paper was consultation process by which any proposals subsequently agreed at the Executive meeting which are to be put before the Executive will be on 22 January 2015. consulted upon with the other Executive parties. It has also been argued and agreed that any The Stormont Castle agreement committed the proposed changes to the Stormont Castle Executive parties to a package of support agreement would have to be agreed at the five measures, including the development of a party leaders' forum, of which, I understand and number of agreed schemes. The schemes know, the Member is a part. Sinn Féin had were intended to provide the details of how the particular concerns about the detail of the different measures would be implemented by supplementary payment scheme. The the Social Security Agency. Preparatory work discussions that were taking place were to started in January 2015, and my officials started identify whether there were solutions within the to share the detail on the schemes with Sinn parameters of the Stormont Castle agreement Féin representatives from early February. that could address its issues
From the beginning of March 2015, the level of As someone who has been involved in this engagement with Sinn Féin representatives process since we had what we believed was an increased from weekly meetings to a period agreement, it is extremely frustrating to be during that month when discussions on welfare treated in the way that the House, and, more reform were taking place on a daily basis. I importantly, the people of Northern Ireland, was involved in a large number of those have been treated by those parties, namely discussions, along with my officials, who have Sinn Féin, on this issue. The way in which they been providing technical support to the First have treated their own community and the rest Minister and deputy First Minister in seeking to of Northern Ireland is shameful and needs to be identify solutions with regard to the highlighted on a day and daily basis. Northern supplementary payment scheme. Whilst Ireland is losing out, and that is because there discussions have continued during April, the was no agreement by one party to the Stormont level of engagement between myself and my Castle agreement and the Stormont House officials and Sinn Féin representatives has Agreement. reduced significantly. Mr Maskey: Go raibh maith agat, a Mr Nesbitt: I thank the Minister for his very LeasCheann Comhairle. I ask the Minister to explicit answer, which has made clear that note that it is very interesting that Mr Nesbitt is there were daily meetings between his saying that his party did not agree with the Department and Sinn Féin. He will be aware Stormont House Agreement, yet he sat around that the Ulster Unionist Party did not endorse the table on the day it was agreed and said that it represented significant advances and that he
31 Monday 27 April 2015 would recommend it to his party executive and propose to put in place, some of them would be give it a fair wind. reflected in a national programme on welfare if a Labour Government or coalition were to be Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Dallat): Order, please. enacted in Westminster. I am more than happy I need a question. to meet the Member and discuss the issues with her party.
Mr Nesbitt: That is not what happened. Mr Lyttle: I welcome the Minister's commitment Mr Maskey: I will leave that to one side. Will to adequately resource the advice sector in the Minister confirm that he will continue to response to welfare reform. Given that the meet our party and, indeed, any other party that deadlock on welfare reform is costing the is interested in resolving the outstanding Northern Irish taxpayer around £2 million a matters on the Welfare Reform Bill? week, what discussions are currently taking place to make progress? Can the Minister assure the public that this issue has not been Mr Storey: The Member knows, as I trust that parked during the election campaign? Members of this House know, that I will expend whatever time and effort that can be used in order to get an agreement on this issue. I am Mr Storey: I assure the Member that the issue open to having discussions on this matter on a has not been parked. I pay tribute to my daily basis. However, I think that we need to officials, who have worked tirelessly during the face up to reality. As the First Minister lead up to the Stormont House Agreement over indicated earlier, it is highly unlikely that we will Christmas, and subsequently, in providing get any further meaningful discussion on technical support, help and information to the First Minister and the deputy First Minister. A welfare until we have elections to the national Parliament on 7 May and have the formation of huge amount of work has been done. a Government at Westminster on which we are totally dependent. Amidst all that is taking place at the moment, with the focus on the election on 7 May, the I remind all Members, whether they would like voters of Northern Ireland need to keep in mind to accept the fact or not, that it will only be that there was one party that pulled the rug through the formation of a Government at from under all our feet and left us in the Westminster that we will have any finance to be situation whereby Northern Ireland is losing £2 million a week from the block grant. able to run any Department in Northern Ireland, because we are totally dependent on the block grant and the money that comes from Her That has to be set in the context of the stated Majesty's Treasury in London. aims and objectives of the party opposite that it is about protecting the vulnerable, those who Mrs D Kelly: What information did Sinn Féin are in need. If those are the actions of a party seek about future claimants; what type of that wants to be seen to be protecting the benefits did that include; and can the Minister vulnerable, they need to be judged against the share any information that he provided to that reality for many organisations that are now feeling the pinch of decisions that cannot be party with the other parties in the House? made because the money is not there.
Mr Storey: The Member knows that I am more than happy to meet her party and Mr Allister: With £564 million already representatives to discuss any of the issues supposedly to be siphoned off the block grant that have been discussed to date. If that is over future years, does the Minister have any what she is asking for, I will be more than sense that it is at all possible to find any further happy to facilitate that. That discussion would money without doing irreparable damage to be meaningful and beneficial. Whatever details basic services by further undermining the block grant? Can he make clear his position on that? may emerge will be dependent on who forms the Government after 7 May. However, having had discussions with the Labour Party just last Mr Storey: I assume that the Member refers to week when some of its representatives were in the overall package that was agreed. Let us Northern Ireland, I do not get the sense that remember that, at Stormont Castle and in the there would be a huge difference from the Stormont House Agreement, a financial current construct of welfare reform. package was agreed. The First Minister has made it clear that the amount of money has The First Minister highlighted the bedroom tax been agreed. The implementation has become issue: in terms of other elements of mitigation the difficulty. In our work with Sinn Féin and that we in Northern Ireland would put in place or
32 Monday 27 April 2015 other parties, we will continue to see how we and there is no doubt that the serious financial can get a resolution of that. challenges we face moving forward will make this an increasingly difficult task. However, the The Member makes a point about the overall delivery of social housing will remain a priority amount of money that will be needed. There is for me, my Department and the Housing no bottomless pit. There is no tree somewhere Executive. that magically produces a huge amount of money to feed every political aspiration and Mr Lynch: Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann wish list presented to satisfy a particular party. Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a We have made it clear that the financial fhreagra. I thank the Minister for his answer arrangements in the agreement that we all and welcome the units that he mentioned. entered into are as they are. We have been However, Minister, there are over 600 on the working on their implementation. Were we to waiting list in Enniskillen and another 400 get an agreement, subject to the creation of a throughout the rest of the county. How do you new Government at Westminster, and bedroom plan to alleviate that long list? tax was not to be implemented, the only additional money that would be available at the Mr Storey: I thank the Member for his minute would be the £20 million that we have supplementary question and inform him that, already set aside in Northern Ireland to mitigate after Question Time, I will meet Fermanagh and that measure. Omagh District Council to discuss, no doubt, elements of this but also its budget and other Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Dallat): Will Members issues that it wants to bring to our attention. please note that questions 5 and 12 have been withdrawn? The Housing Executive is working to address housing stress levels in the Fermanagh and Housing: Enniskillen Omagh District Council area in a number of ways. For example, housing stress is 2. Mr Lynch asked the Minister for Social addressed most notably through the re-letting of Development how many social housing units existing stock, the refurbishment of void will have been completed within the new properties and the allocation of new-build Enniskillen district electoral area during this schemes. The number of new social homes mandate. (AQO 8019/11-15) required is based on the annual housing need assessment, which examines the supply and demand, highlights any areas where there are Mr Storey: The number of social housing units gaps and predicts what will be required over a completed in the new Fermanagh and Omagh five-year period to develop the social housing District Council area during this mandate from development programme. If there are other 2010-11 to 2014-15 is 139 units. The Housing specific areas that the Member wants to raise Executive is responsible for assessing the level with us, I am more than happy to give him more of social housing need, determining the need detail. for schemes in specific areas and formulating the social housing programme. The Housing 3.00 pm Executive also carries out an annual housing needs assessment of all district councils to examine the supply and demand of new social Mr Elliott: I thank the Minister for that update. housing. This assessment is then used to Has the number of people in housing stress in determine the Housing Executive’s unmet the Fermanagh area generally increased or housing needs prospectus, which identifies decreased over the last few years? locations where there is general unmet housing need beyond the schemes included in the Mr Storey: For the Member's information, I social housing development programme and have the current waiting lists in that area. At where it has not been possible to secure new- December 2014, there were 1,400 applicants build sites. on the waiting list for the Fermanagh and Omagh District Council area, 774 of whom were Housing need is identified by the number in the Fermanagh area, with 626 in the Omagh deemed to be in housing stress. This is where area. A total of 488 applicants on the waiting applicants have 30 points or more on the list are deemed to be in housing stress, of Housing Executive’s housing selection scheme. whom 307 are in the Fermanagh area and 181 Housing need in Northern Ireland is addressed are in the Omagh area. I do not know how that through the social housing development compares with the previous year. However, I programme in a fair and equitable way. Much am more than happy to provide that information has been achieved in addressing housing need, to the Member.
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Mr Lyttle: Does the Minister know when the considerable work done by my officials was to Housing Executive maintenance programme to ensure that we cross-referenced between the install cavity wall insulation in homes in the offices in the Department, from the north-west Braniel estate in east Belfast, which was office right through to the Belfast offices, to scheduled for October 2013, will be delivered? ensure that we were not in any way treating any group or organisation differently because of its Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Dallat): I do not think geographical position. It is not often that we get that that question relates to the main one. The praise in west Belfast in the 'Andersonstown Minister has a choice. News' from the SDLP and Sinn Féin, but there was recognition from west Belfast's political Mr Storey: I appreciate that the Member is representatives that, while there was some bad seeking to be inventive. However, going from news for community organisations from the Fermanagh to Braniel is pretty inventive. Even Department for Social Development, the cuts for the Alliance Party, that stretches the have not been as bad as was originally feared. definition of being inventive. I am happy to get The article goes on to highlight a number of issues, and the Member knows that I met her a written answer to the Member. It will probably be after 7 May. and colleagues in relation to specific issues.
It places a responsibility on Departments to Voluntary and Community Sector: ensure that, collectively — I know that the Cuts issue has been raised by NICVA with the First Minister and deputy First Minister — there is a 3. Ms McCorley asked the Minister for Social cross-departmental approach that has a Development what discussions he has had with positive outcome for the voluntary and ministerial colleagues to ensure there is a community sector as opposed to one strategic focus on how departmental cuts are Department doing one thing and another impacting on services provided by the voluntary Department doing something else. We have and community sector. (AQO 8020/11-15) seen that particularly in relation to a question raised earlier about early years. The Mr Storey: As with all Executive Departments, Department of Education cut £1·7 million out of my Department is required to implement its budget, which has had a clear impact on efficiencies in 2015-16, including in services community organisations, some of which are in provided by the voluntary and community West Belfast and other constituencies across Northern Ireland. sector. I undertook a series of formal and informal discussions with ministerial colleagues and MLAs on the proposed allocations to Mr Ramsey: I acknowledge the immense particular funding streams. A transparent, contribution that the community and voluntary robust approach was undertaken aimed at sector makes across Northern Ireland, maximising the delivery of high-quality services particularly on welfare rights. Is there any to the most disadvantaged and to ensure that evidence or indication of collaboration between available funding was prioritised against the organisations delivering projects through DSD highest-quality projects, where successful in the community and voluntary sector? outcomes could make a difference to people's lives. Mr Storey: I thank the Member for the work that he does on the issue. Many examples are Ms McCorley: Go raibh maith agat, a used, and the Member who spoke previously LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas referred to a cocktail of funding. It requires leis an Aire as an fhreagra sin. I thank the organisations in the voluntary and community Minister for that answer. Does the Minister sector to be innovative in a way that ensures agree that the nature of the community and the best possible financial arrangements to voluntary sector is such that it relies on a deliver the particular project. When you see a cocktail of funding from various sources and project delivered in a way that has brought that, because of that, there are very often about collaboration, you see that it enhances adverse impacts on its services and the project. It also brings a particular challenge, programmes when one gets cut, because they which is that, as we have seen to date in some depend on one another? In that context, does areas, when one element of the funding the Minister agree that there is a need for a arrangement is not in place or is removed, it clear strategic approach? could have a long-term effect on whether that project survives. Mr Storey: I thank the Member for her supplementary. One element of the I referred to preschool places. Some preschools in my constituency now face a very
34 Monday 27 April 2015 bleak situation, not because money was not Indeed, on the day that I was appointed available from other elements of government Minister for Social Development, 24 September, but because the money that had been removed Members will recall that a lobby group came to from the Department of Education probably was the Assembly and, as dutiful MLAs, we all got a cornerstone to that money being used for that our photograph taken to ensure that we organisation. If it is not there, the viability of supported that campaign, but that is not the those organisations becomes untenable, and, reason why I was keen to ensure that the ultimately, some projects would close as a Supporting People programme was protected. result. Little did I know that, that afternoon, I would be responsible for that budgetary head. Maybe the Mr Swann: The Minister referred to having lesson to be learned from that experience is conversations with other Ministers: did he have always to be careful of the photographs that any conversations with the Employment and you get yourself into. Learning Minister in regard to the European social fund and how some in the voluntary and I believe that the Supporting People programme community sector, such as the women's sector plays a vital role in ensuring that people have and young people not in employment, floating services and that the 80% of the money education or training, will lose out on funding? that goes towards the housing element of the scheme is invaluable, and I want to protect it Mr Storey: I thank the Member. As Chair of going into the future. I trust that we can build the Committee, he will be well aware that this on the success of the Supporting People programme. has become a particular problem. We had discussions with some of the organisations that came to see us in the lead-up to us making a Housing: Conservative Party decision on the budget. I should have said Proposals earlier that I am sorry that it took so long for us to get to the point where we made the 4. Mr Brady asked the Minister for Social announcement, but that came about as a result Development if he will oppose the local of a variety of discussions that we had with introduction of the sell-off of housing, including organisations to give some sense of where they housing association properties, proposed by the would be post the announcement that we would Conservative Party. (AQO 8021/11-15) make. I can confirm that we had consultation and discussion with the Minister on the elements of ESF that have ultimately resulted in Mr Storey: I am sure that the Member is aware some organisations having severe difficulties or should be aware that a system of selling and severe financial problems. social houses to existing tenants is in place in Northern Ireland in the form of the house sales scheme. The house sales scheme gives Mr Middleton: Can the Minister tell us if the eligible tenants of the Northern Ireland Housing budget for Supporting People will be affected? Executive or registered housing associations the right to buy their property from their landlord Mr Storey: I thank the Member and welcome at a discounted rate to the normal market value. him to Question Time. I look forward to working The initial discount for the house sales scheme with him. I know that he will continue to do a is set at present at 20% of the market value, good job for the people he represents, as he increasing by 2% for each additional completed has done as an elected representative on the year of tenancy to a maximum of 60% or council in Londonderry. I look forward to £24,000, whichever is lower. working with him in the weeks and months ahead. Mr Brady: I thank the Minister for his answer. What consideration has he given to stopping It is clear that we endeavoured to do all that we the ongoing sell-off of publicly owned housing? could to protect the Supporting People programme. The funds of a number of community sector organisations providing Mr Storey: The Member's colleague, who is housing support services to very vulnerable sitting beside him, commented on concerns people in our society are supported through the about the Housing Executive that a plan would Supporting People programme. I have be afoot that, at some stage, I would put the protected, as far as possible, the Supporting Housing Executive into a new arrangement that People budget for 2015-16, which will secure would take it outside public ownership. Since I the delivery of those housing support services have come into post, I have endeavoured to by the voluntary and community sector. build a working relationship with the Housing Executive. I am very cognisant of the fact that it has done a very good job in the past. Like any
35 Monday 27 April 2015 organisation, it has had its difficulties and a huge amount of work and money will be challenges. However, I want to ensure that we needed to bring the existing Housing Executive have good homes in Northern Ireland, and I do stock up to a level that any of us would be not believe that that will be provided for through happy with in this modern day and age. a one-size-fits-all approach. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Dallat): That ends the As was highlighted by the Member's colleague, period for listed questions. Topical question 6 a request has come to me via the Housing has been withdrawn. Executive board that it be given additional powers to borrow money and, therefore, be in a better place to do a better job. I will endeavour Housing Executive: Pay Increment to work with the Housing Executive. We are Delay seriously considering those issues at the moment. I trust that, with the help of the T1. Mr Boylan asked the Minister for Social Assembly, I will very soon be in a position to Development why there has been such a delay give an assurance to the Housing Executive, to in dealing with Housing Executive workers’ pay its tenants and to the people of Northern Ireland increment. (AQT 2411/11-15) that we are not in the business of selling off but that we are in the business of ensuring that we Mr Storey: That is obviously an issue for get the best possible outcome for our tenants to ourselves and the board, and I hope to be in a deliver the best possible homes for the people position to have it resolved within a matter of of Northern Ireland. weeks.
Mr Wilson: Does the Minister agree that, first, Mr Boylan: I thank the Minister for his answer. the purchase of homes by tenants is popular; Will you outline what engagement you have had secondly, it releases capital that is tied up in with DFP on this matter, and can you outline a houses that are not available for public timeline for its resolution? Go raibh míle maith dispersal at present; and, thirdly, will he reject agat. the left-wing state-controlled ideology of Sinn Féin that wants people to be dependent on the Mr Storey: As in all these things, this remains a public sector rather than have the freedom to matter on which we have to engage with DFP own property if they so wish? and the processes that we have. I will write to the Member with an answer about the timeline. Mr Storey: As always, you can depend on the Member for East Antrim to set an issue in Housing: Empty Homes Strategy context. I agree with him. We must have a mix of provision that does not restrict the people who want to advance and own their own home. T2. Mr F McCann asked the Minister for Social Equally, when there is not the opportunity for Development for an update on the empty people to do that, we must have a system homes strategy, including private and social whereby people still have access to good housing, and to explain what is being done to homes. bring these houses into use to deal with the lengthy waiting lists. (AQT 2412/11-15)
3.15 pm Mr Storey: I thank the Member. When it I trust that the public and parties in the House comes to housing issues, the Member is will eventually take this up, but we often refer someone who always endeavours to keep a here to building houses, when, as I have said in watching brief. I am concerned about the ongoing work that needs to be done with the the House before, it should be about building homes. I have seen communities with a Housing Executive and other organisations. mixture of provision, whether it is private, social or co-ownership. However, whatever the This goes back to the point that I made about provision and whoever the provider, the one how we engage with those organisations to thing we need to ensure is that they are quality ensure that they do not suddenly come to a homes that are fit for purpose. point where they believe that they are involved in some meaningless process, when actually I will shortly be bringing to the Social there is a focus on them to ensure that they Development Committee and the House the deliver for their tenants. My Department outcome of the Savills investigation. The sad continues to work with the executive and other reality is that when we see the detail of that organisations to ensure that, whether the issue report, we will find that it will clearly indicate that is empty homes or maintenance, they are well aware of their requirements to do what they can
36 Monday 27 April 2015 within the budgetary envelope that was given to Urban Regeneration Cuts: Mid them to deliver those services. Ulster
Mr F McCann: I thank the Minister for his T3. Mr Milne asked the Minister for Social response. World Homeless Day was the week Development to outline the criteria that were before last, and several events were held used to determine the reduction in DSD funding throughout the city of Belfast and a number of for urban regeneration, which resulted in Mid organisations marched to City Hall. Yet only Ulster being the hardest hit, with a reduction of yards from where that march took place, there 25·24%. (AQT 2413/11-15) are hundreds of apartments that have been lying empty for quite a number of years that could, if brought in to use, help to deal with Mr Storey: I thank the Member for his question. some of the serious homelessness problems. I go back to the comments that I made earlier about the amount of money given to us. He Many people who have — has to appreciate that what we had given to us was a reduction in the overall amount that we had previously and that that was going to have Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Dallat): I really need a a particular impact on the roll-out of question shortly. neighbourhood renewal. Indeed, if we had had agreement from his party to having the issue Mr F McCann: I am asking the Minister this: rolled out on 1 April, it would have been local how can you deal with landlords who have councils dealing with it, as opposed to my hundreds of homes or apartments lying there Department. However, failure to get agreement that could be brought back into use to deal with on that and his party not trusting its own homelessness? councillors to administer it are issues that Sinn Féin has to explain to its elected Mr Storey: I think that it is true to say that the representatives. Housing Executive and housing associations remain committed to moving tenants into The rationale that we used was to look at areas available homes as quickly as possible. The that were outside the scope of neighbourhood standard tool of measurement for the process is renewal, at whether the process had given the proportion of empty stock, or voids, at any value for money and at the way in which the given time. Quickly moving people from the project might have been time-bound. As a waiting list into homes once they become result, some projects did not continue, because available is reflected in a lower proportion of the funding allocation was coming to an end. empty homes. The target for void management of social housing is 4%, as it is for overall Mr Milne: Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Northern Ireland void management of relevant Comhairle. Mo bhuíochas leis an Aire go dtí social housing providers. seo. I thank the Minister for his answer. Given that he has stated that the regeneration of I agree with the Member that we need to do all Magherafelt town centre is an ongoing that we can. I heard some comments that commitment of his Department, can he outline made the assertion that somehow we were not what impact the substantial cut will have on taking the issue seriously. I take very seriously future progress in that regard? ensuring that we are doing all that we can, whether for people who are deemed to be Mr Storey: I thank the Member for his question. homeless, people who are in housing stress or I have met representatives from the people in particular areas where there are Magherafelt area and from the new council, and certain challenges to getting a better return I do not believe that we will see any long-term from the overall waiting list. I give the Member disadvantage to the amount of money being that assurance, because there is a allocated, because I think that the new council responsibility for landlords — the Member is will endeavour to ensure that the money is absolutely right — but it is a collective spent in a way that gives us a good outcome in responsibility on our part to do all that we can to Magherafelt, and in other areas within the new encourage and facilitate a resolution to the council boundaries. issue.
Belfast Pride: DSD Grant
T4. Mr Allister asked the Minister for Social Development whether his Department plans,
37 Monday 27 April 2015 again this year, to provide a grant to Belfast many of them older people, gained £14·2 Pride. (AQT 2414/11-15) million in new and additional benefits. In fact, since 2005, benefit uptake work has generated Mr Storey: I approved the continuation of the over £81 million in additional income for people Belfast city centre community activity grant for in Northern Ireland. This is additional income the financial year 2015-16. My Department has for people in Northern Ireland, and I think that allocated a budget of £220,000 from the Belfast that proves the worth of the programme. I am city centre events and community activity grants committed to ensuring that it is continued in the for the financial year 2015-16. That represents future. a reduction of some £80,000 in the amount that has been available in recent years. Mr McQuillan: I thank the Minister for his answer, and I think that £81 million over five The grant schemes were previously known as years is a big turnaround. Minister, how does the "Laganside events grant" and the your Department promote the uptake of "Laganside community activity grant". benefits? However, in April 2013, the applicable boundary was extended to take in the city centre, and, as Mr Storey: I thank the Member for his a result, the grant schemes were renamed the supplementary question. My Department has "Belfast city centre events grant" and the four separate but complementary strands of "Belfast city centre community activity grant". activity to generate additional benefits for harder-to-reach groups of people. They include A call for applications for the Belfast city centre writing to over 25,000 individuals identified from event grant scheme was made on 9 April 2015, benefit data sets, encouraging them to have a with a closing date of 23 April of this year. The full benefit entitlement check and to ensure that Department received 34 applications, and the they are not missing out on any benefit applications will be assessed over the coming supports or services to which they may be weeks, with the decision on funding being entitled. Make the Call is the regional issued in due course. Included in those advertising and promotion campaign and is applications, as it has been in previous years, is endorsed by the Commissioner for Older Orangefest. People. Community outreach officers based throughout Northern Ireland deliver benefit Mr Allister: Is Belfast Pride included in those uptake activity by visiting vulnerable claimants applications, and does the Minister anticipate in their own home, carrying out benefit again giving funding? Does he think that it is a entitlement checks and assisting with claims prudent use of £250,000 in these times of and form-filling. They also provide a valuable austerity to sustain events such as this? service to communities by delivering community promotional events and clinics, providing Mr Storey: I have not had personal sight of the redundancy support to business and individuals applications, and that process will be carried by and taking referrals from a wider range of the Belfast city centre events grant scheme. It partners. There is also the innovation fund and is the administrator for the scheme, and it is up partnership working with Atlantic Philanthropies, to it to decide in relation to the process that will and my Department funded community-based be used and the allocations that will be made. organisations to trial new innovative approaches to improving benefit uptake. Full evaluation of this approach will also be Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Dallat): Mrs Karen available in the summer of 2015. I trust that McKevitt is not in her place. Question 6, that gives the Member some overview of the remember, was withdrawn. ways in which we endeavour to promote the uptake of benefits via writing to people, Make Benefit Uptake Programme the Call and community outreach officers.
T7. Mr McQuillan asked the Minister for Social Social Need Financial Package: Development how much the benefit uptake Councils programme generated last year. (AQT 2417/11- 15) T8. Mr Ó hOisín asked the Minister for Social Development what protections are in place to Mr Storey: I thank the Member for the ensure that new councils will not be able to use question. I am committed to promoting the the financial package provided to deal with uptake of benefits in an effort to tackle poverty social need for other purposes. (AQT 2418/11- and improve life for those who are most 15) vulnerable. In 2013-14, over 4,000 people,
38 Monday 27 April 2015
Mr Storey: I thank the Member: he raises a person in the Chair might hear better what is valid point. The answer may lie with his going on. colleagues on the Social Development Committee, who are currently looking at the Regeneration Bill. I await the outcome of the deliberations of the Committee. I have listened to some comments that have already been made to me about the definition or lack of definition of social need, and I think that we need to ensure that the title of the Bill is reflected in the activity of the council. The Bill is currently called and remains the Regeneration Bill, and there needs to be a focus on the aspects of regeneration that benefit society and community.
3.30 pm
Mr Ó hOisín: Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an fhreagra sin. I thank the Minister for his answer. Can he tell us how, in the Regeneration Bill, he could best ring-fence funding for social need?
Mr Storey: It could be done by setting down certain criteria and giving guidelines in the Bill or guidelines following as a result of the progress of the Bill. That would be the template that councils would be asked to use to ensure that the specific purpose for which money is given is the purpose for which it is used.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Dallat): Order. Time is up. Members will wish to take their ease —
Mr Nesbitt: On a point of order.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Dallat): Can I finish first, please? Members will take their ease while we change the Table. I will take the point of order.
Mr Nesbitt: I am very grateful to you. I would be grateful if you would review Hansard for the remarks by Mr Maskey in which, if I heard him correctly, he implied that at the Stormont House talks I said I would take the agreement and recommend it to my party executive. That is not true, and he knows it is not true. I am sure you would agree that we should use the Chamber respectfully and not as the set of 'Jackanory'.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Dallat): It seems the Member has clarified the point. Of course we can view Hansard; sometimes, though, it would be useful if Members who are not speaking would remain silent and then, perhaps, the
39 Monday 27 April 2015
(Mr Speaker in the Chair) "all of this stuff where people are self absorbed about their own gender and how everything is about them ... Get over it. Get Private Members' Business over yourself."
Marriage Equality That is not a mature response for an MP, an MLA, an MEP or any elected representative on
Debate resumed on motion: this island.
Churches, of course, have different views on That this Assembly welcomes the marriage marriage equality. Political parties have equality referendum in the South of Ireland; different views on it as well. Danny Kinahan notes that a growing number of Parliaments made an important point when he said that across the world have embraced, and legislated marriage was not just a religious institution. We for, marriage equality; respects the rights of the have civil marriage and we have marriage in religious institutions to define, observe and many of our Churches. The language used by practise marriage within their beliefs; and calls the DUP as a party and by many of its leading on the Executive to legislate for marriage members is despicable, dangerous and wrong. equality for same-sex couples so that all This is a party that talks about itself as a party citizens will have the same legal entitlement to of the economy, but this is embarrassing on an the protections, responsibilities, rights, international stage, where we are trying to obligations and benefits afforded by the legal secure jobs and foreign direct investment. A lot institution of marriage. of these comments put people and companies off. There will be different views on marriage Mr McKay: Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann equality, but the language, more than anything, Comhairle. I support the motion. It has been a that is used by the Democratic Unionist Party worthwhile debate. Some Members referred to makes some of these stories go round the the fact that we have been here before, and I world faster. am sure we will be here again until the issue is dealt with, as it is being dealt with elsewhere on Marriage has not been the same institution for this island and on the island opposite. thousands of years. It has changed many times and taken many forms. What we are talking Justin McAleese gave an interview to a about for the LGBT community is civil marriage, newspaper recently. He referred to the MP for not marriage in a church. Civil marriage was North Antrim, the effect that comments made by introduced in the 1800s; it does not go back the MP had on his personal life and the struggle centuries. Civil marriage has been subject to he had, not to come to terms with his sexuality many changes in recent times. It is not but with the fact that much of society was something that goes back thousands of years. opposed to his sexuality, to him as a person Marriage has changed over time and needs to and to what he was. An interesting quote from continue to change for the better. Justin was: This highlights the need for church and state to "Language matters, words matter, marriage be separate. We have to accommodate matters". everyone who lives in our society, and we have to accommodate people of all backgrounds. That is something that many Members opposite Some Churches do not advocate divorce. in the DUP need to reflect on. Language and Government offers people the choice of words have a deeply damaging effect on divorce, but they do not have to avail people, on members of the LGBT community. themselves of it. Some Churches oppose contraception, and the state allows people the Mr Agnew: Will the Member give way? freedom to make up their own mind on that. Some Churches oppose marriage for same-sex Mr McKay: I will not give way, sorry. couples, and government should ensure that same-sex couples have the ability to decide for The response from Mr Paisley, which is in the themselves. No one who does not believe in 'The Irish Times' today, is that he thinks Mr same-sex marriage — no one who does not McAleese and others should "get over" believe in marriage, for that matter — has to themselves. That was the response that the enter into one if they do not want to. MP for North Antrim made. He said: Of course, sometimes this debate sets church and religion against the rest of society, but, as we know, there are many strands in
40 Monday 27 April 2015
Christianity, as well as in Judaism and other are gay, and asked what Jim Wells was talking religions, that have no issue with marriage about. It is wrong that people have been put in between people of the same gender. I know that position. many people in the North — members of the Presbyterian Church and of the Catholic Church Of course, many gay people and their children — who have no problem with equal marriage. also face the brunt of homophobia and the roll- out from those comments in our schoolyards. The resignation of the Health Minister is hugely Danny Kinahan referred to his experience in the significant. This is the first time that a politician British Army, and we will all know that, growing has been forced to resign in the North because up, there was rampant homophobia in of the strength of public opinion against schoolyards and playgrounds. When my homophobic remarks. That is a big change for generation was growing up, that, given the us as a society in the North of this island. I number of comments made, was certainly the believe that the public recognise that it is simply case. Children did not know what they were wrong to speak about gay people in that way. saying, but it was rampant throughout our playgrounds. I am sure that that still goes on to Nelson McCausland spoke about the need to a very high degree — I know that it does. That protect traditional marriage and about the wider has a big impact on depression, anxiety and impact on society, but he did not give any suicide, so it needs to be a priority for the evidence to back any of that up. Marriage Executive — for Education, Health and all the equality has been introduced in a number of relevant Departments. countries, and the sky has not fallen in. It has been brought in in Scotland. Has society been In the closing seconds of my contribution, I irreversibly damaged in Scotland? No, it has would like to pay tribute to everyone in the not. Most people now look on Scotland as LGBT community who has campaigned, and somewhere that, thanks to a lot of political will continue to campaign, on the issue until debate over the past couple of years, has they succeed. I have no doubt that the become a better society. I believe that this momentum is firmly with them. Every Sinn Féin society will follow in its footsteps. MLA will vote for same-sex marriage today, and I urge other progressive parties to ensure that a The Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone full complement of their Members do the same. said that she was sympathetic to victims of homophobic attacks, but she failed to make the Mr Speaker: I remind Members that the vote on link between those attacks and the prejudice the motion will be on a cross-community basis. that leads to them in the first place. I come back to what I said at the start: Members of the Question put. House need to be especially conscious of their comments. I recognise that there are those on The Assembly divided: the unionist Benches who approach the issue with the sensitivity required, but there are many who do not and fail to recognise the impact of Ayes 47; Noes 49. their comments. AYES Danny Kennedy said that we had tabled the motion for electoral purposes: that is nonsense. NATIONALIST: This is not about getting more votes. We may get more votes in certain areas because we Mr Attwood, Mr Boylan, Ms Boyle, Mr D have a line on equal marriage, but I know Bradley, Mr Brady, Mr Durkan, Mr Eastwood, people who previously voted for us but who will Ms Fearon, Mr Flanagan, Mr Hazzard, Mrs D not vote for this party because of the equal Kelly, Mr G Kelly, Mr Lynch, Mr McAleer, Mr F marriage issue. The reason why we brought McCann, Ms J McCann, Mr McCartney, Ms the motion to the Floor is that it is the right thing McCorley, Dr McDonnell, Mr McElduff, Ms to do. McGahan, Mr McGlone, Mr M McGuinness, Mr McKay, Mr McKinney, Ms Maeve McLaughlin, Caitríona Ruane rightly referred to the fact that Mr McMullan, Mr Maskey, Mr Milne, Ms Ní the issue could affect Member's children and Chuilín, Mr Ó hOisín, Mr Ó Muilleoir, Mr grandchildren, and it could have consequences O'Dowd, Mrs O'Neill, Mr Ramsey, Ms Ruane, in our families that Members may not yet be Mr Sheehan. aware of. I am sure that, given the comments made in the past number of days, children of gay members of our community will go, and have gone, to their parents, knowing that they
41 Monday 27 April 2015
UNIONIST: Mr Speaker, that it is a shame and disgrace on every Member who spoke but did not refer to it, Mr Kinahan, Mr McCallister, Mr B McCrea, Ms let alone condemn it. Sugden. Ms Ruane: Further to that point of order, I was OTHER: here for the entire debate. I heard every single Member who spoke sympathise with Mr Jim Mr Agnew, Mr Dickson, Dr Farry, Mr Ford, Ms Wells. Just in case there is any ambiguity Lo, Mr Lyttle. about this: every single person who spoke here sympathised with Mr Wells. I am sure that I Tellers for the Ayes: Ms Fearon and Ms Ruane. speak for everyone in the House when I condemn any abuse towards anyone, including NOES Mr Wells. [Interruption.]
UNIONIST: Mr Speaker: Order. I listened very carefully to what Mr Campbell said, and he isolated and Mr Allister, Mr Anderson, Mr Beggs, Mr Bell, Ms mentioned the fact that there was no reference P Bradley, Mr Buchanan, Mrs Cameron, Mr made to the abuse. Whilst that was outwith the Campbell, Mr Clarke, Mr Craig, Mr Cree, Mrs Assembly, I have no reason to doubt that Mr Dobson, Mr Douglas, Mr Dunne, Mr Easton, Mr Wells and his family were subjected to it, and I Elliott, Mrs Foster, Mr Frew, Mr Gardiner, Mr think it reprehensible if it were the case. Girvan, Mr Givan, Mrs Hale, Mr Hamilton, Mr However, I do not think that the fact that that Hilditch, Mr Humphrey, Mr Irwin, Mr Kennedy, was not mentioned is a point of order on the Mr McCausland, Mr I McCrea, Mr McGimpsey, debate that we had. It is a sin of omission from Mr D McIlveen, Miss M McIlveen, Mr McNarry, your perspective, Mr Campbell, but of course Mr McQuillan, Mr Middleton, Lord Morrow, Mr on all sides of the Chamber, there was equal Moutray, Mr Nesbitt, Mrs Overend, Mr Poots, opportunity for people to raise that particular Mr G Robinson, Mr P Robinson, Mr Ross, Mr aspect, so it is a matter of the record of the Spratt, Mr Storey, Mr Swann, Mr Weir, Mr debate, and, on that basis, I do not accept your Wells, Mr Wilson. point of order.
Tellers for the Noes: Mr McQuillan and Mr G Adjourned at 4.00 pm. Robinson.
Total Votes 96 Total Ayes 47 [49.0%]
Nationalist Votes 37 Nationalist Ayes 37 [100.0%]
Unionist Votes 53 Unionist Ayes 4 [7.5%]
Other Votes 6 Other Ayes 6 [100.0%]
The following Members voted in both Lobbies and are therefore not counted in the result: Mrs Cochrane, Mr Lunn, Mr McCarthy.
Question accordingly negatived (cross- community vote).
Mr Campbell: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I wish to raise a matter of security. In this debate, which has lasted an hour and a half, nine Members spoke from the Benches of Sinn Féin, the SDLP, the UUP and Alliance. On all sides, there was mention and criticism of my colleague the honourable Member for South Down Jim Wells. That Member has been subjected to the most severe online intimidation and harassment since the events of the past four days. Not a single Member mentioned or condemned that harassment and vile abuse that he has received not just for himself but for his family, and some of it used his seriously ill wife's name as well. I hope that you will agree,
42
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