Thursday Volume 536 1 December 2011 No. 234

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Thursday 1 December 2011

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Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): The House of Commons coalition agreement emphasised anaerobic digestion as a technology to take forward, yet many people who are Thursday 1 December 2011 keen on it find obstacles in their way, including funding. Will the Green investment bank be able to provide funds for those people so that they can take their The House met at half-past Ten o’clock projects forward? Chris Huhne: I thank my hon. Friend for his question. PRAYERS He is right that anaerobic digestion is one of the technologies that we want to encourage. Indeed, it falls broadly within the renewables remit of the Green investment [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] bank, but my understanding of the problems with anaerobic digestion is that they relate principally to planning and objections, rather than funding. Funding Oral Answers to Questions is not the key issue with AD. Caroline Flint (Don Valley) (Lab): As we heard on Tuesday, because of the Government’s cuts, which are going too far and too fast, the economy is flatlining, ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE unemployment is rising and the Government will miss their borrowing targets. In his autumn statement the The Secretary of State was asked— Chancellor lauded the Green investment bank as proof of his green credentials, but on 9 September the Government Green Investment Bank confirmed in a written answer that the Green investment bank would only have full borrowing powers from April 1. Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): What 2015, subject to public sector net debt falling as a recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of percentage of GDP. Will the Secretary of State confirm State for Business, Innovation and Skills on the effect that the Government’s policy is that we will not have a of the Green investment bank on levels of investment proper Green investment bank with borrowing powers in renewable energy infrastructure. [83959] until 2016 at the earliest? The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change Chris Huhne: I thank the right hon. Lady for her (Chris Huhne): I regularly discuss the Green investment question. When the Green investment bank will be able bank with ministerial colleagues, including the Secretary to borrow has been set out clearly from the beginning. of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, and am She wants to make the point that the borrowing powers confident that it can play a major role in capitalising of the Green investment bank are delayed, but the private sector investment in renewable energy. reality is that we are the only leading industrial country never to have had an infrastructure bank, despite the Stephen Mosley: I thank my right hon. Friend for his common experience of the 1930s and despite 13 years answer and welcome the Chancellor’s announcement in of Labour government. I very much hope that we will his autumn statement earlier this week of £200 million meet the net debt-to-GDP target as soon as possible, in incentives to support the green deal. Will the Green and when we do the GIB will be able to borrow. investment bank be able to back up that important investment and provide low-cost loans to support the Energy Prices green deal? 2. Simon Wright (Norwich South) (LD): What recent Chris Huhne: Supporting energy efficiency projects is discussions he has had with major energy companies indeed part of the Green investment bank’s remit, and on their pricing policies. [83961] clearly that includes the green deal. We can certainly envisage a key role in the launch of the private finance, The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change because after all the green deal is private finance, but at (Chris Huhne): I am sorry, Mr Speaker, but I do not the very beginning it will be important that the markets have the answer to the question. gradually get used to the idea of that new type of instrument, and the Green investment bank could have Mr Speaker: It is on what discussions the Secretary of an important role in facilitating that. State has had with major energy companies on their pricing policies. Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ Co-op): I am glad to hear that the Secretary of State is Chris Huhne: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I was under discussing the issue with colleagues. When will a decision the impression that the question had been withdrawn, on the location of the Green investment bank be made but I am happy to answer my hon. Friend. and when will it be up and running for business? We have had a number of discussions with energy companies, most recently the energy summit, in which Chris Huhne: The first investment should be made in we discussed the whole issue of consumer pricing. the spring of next year. The location will be a matter first for the advisory board, whose advice I also anticipate Simon Wright: I thank the Secretary of State for his will be available next year. The hon. Gentleman will response. I am concerned about the extent of savings bear in mind that the Department for Business, Innovation that are offered to the internet savvy and subsidised by and Skills is leading on this. offline customers. Given the digital divide, with many of 1065 Oral Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 1066 the poorest households and older customers not having that the impact on many other businesses right across internet access, what action is he taking to ensure that the country, through reduced consumer spending, would everyone pays a reasonable price for their energy? have been substantial.

Chris Huhne: One of the key issues is that people who Domestic Energy Costs do not have online access should be able to get sources of advice that enable them to take advantage of cheaper 4. Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): What steps tariffs. That may be people who are elderly or not he is taking to assist households with their energy costs. necessarily able to get online, and one of the things that [83963] we are attempting to do is to encourage charities in the sector and organisations such as Citizens Advice to 10. David Wright (Telford) (Lab): What steps he is provide help when it is not forthcoming from family taking to assist households with their energy costs. members. They are also a very important way in which [83971] the elderly can be helped to move on to cheaper tariffs, however, and I know that a lot of family members do The Minister of State, Department of Energy and take the time to ensure that elderly members of the Climate Change (Charles Hendry): We expect the warm family get cheap tariffs. home discount scheme to help about 2 million low-income and vulnerable households per year. This winter, energy Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab): Energy suppliers will be required to provide automatic rebates pricing affects our industrial competitiveness, so although of £120 on energy bills to more than 600,000 pensioners I welcome the Government’s steps in the autumn statement on the pension credit guarantee. In future, the green on energy-intensive industries, I note the real concern in deal and the energy company obligation will provide the ceramics sector that such steps will do nothing to energy efficiency measures at no up-front cost. assist it. Will we see further announcements in the coming weeks for industries such as ceramics, particularly Ian Murray: The Minister will be aware that the on capital allowances? Secretary of State, at the Liberal Democrat conference just a few weeks ago, said: Chris Huhne: One key thing with the energy-intensive “None of us should have to save on warmth in a cold winter. industries is that it is crucial to help those that will be Some of the most vulnerable and elderly will shiver—and worse—if most affected because of electricity intensity and their we do not help.” competitive position in terms of trade. We will set out Why then does he believe that the Government should the full details of that in the consultation. cut winter fuel payments to 12.7 million pensioners?

Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): The Charles Hendry: The hon. Gentleman will be completely Minister will be aware that one recommendation of the aware that that policy was announced by the previous billing stakeholder group was that energy suppliers Government, who did not put the money into their should send a tailored communication to customers, budget for it to go forward. We have therefore continued detailing in pounds, shillings and pence how much they the policy that was put in place, but we have introduced could save by transferring to that company’s cheapest the most rigorous scheme of energy efficiency in our standard direct debit tariff in time for this winter. Two homes—rolling it out in a way not even dreamed of by suppliers, Scottish Power and npower, have complied,; the previous Administration—to bring lasting help and four have not. Will the Minister now look at bringing care to support such people. those four into line? David Wright: Twenty-eight per cent. of households Chris Huhne: First, I pay tribute to my hon. Friend in the west midlands live in fuel poverty, and one of the for his work on the issue, because it is crucial that key issues for them is the quality of the housing stock in people are provided with clear and specific advice on which they live. Obviously, the poorer the housing what they can do. He is absolutely right to draw attention stock, the more difficult it is to heat. What specific to the two large energy companies that have already support are the Government giving to help those in complied, and yes, indeed, we are bringing pressure to private rented housing, which is often not invested in by bear to ensure that all the others follow. landlords and often very fuel inefficient?

Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): Is it not the case Charles Hendry: The hon. Gentleman makes a very that energy companies will benefit from pricing at the important point. That is why the green deal has focused expense of companies such as Energy Outlet, in Formby very strongly on those in the private rented sector and in my constituency, which has lost business due to the why we are considering introducing a legal obligation cuts in support for solar energy, and that consumers will on private landlords to ensure that their homes are also lose out due to the change that the Secretary of brought up to a reasonable standard. This sector has State has made at short notice? often been overlooked and has been harder hit than many others, and we are determined to make sure that it Chris Huhne: I simply do not agree with the hon. is now addressed properly. Gentleman, who argues that consumers will lose out from the measure. If we had not acted quickly to deal Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): I with cost overruns in the sector, not only would we not very much welcome the warm home discount scheme, have been able to provide a sustainable future for those for which a number of elderly people in Bournemouth who are employed and have businesses in it, but we would probably be eligible. How are the Government would have added so substantially to consumer bills making people aware of this important scheme? 1067 Oral Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 1068

Charles Hendry: My hon. Friend rightly draws attention to have reduced heating bills. What is going on in to the warm home discount, which is up by two thirds Stoke-on-Trent is echoed all around the country. Given as a result of the decisions we have made, whereby that everybody agrees that the feed-in tariff needs to be £120 million will be spent supporting 600,000 poorer reviewed, but in a phased way, does the Minister agree pensioners. The energy companies are writing directly that, at the very least, the existing tariff levels should be to many of their customers—and we, as a Government, honoured for aggregated solar photovoltaic schemes are writing to millions of others—to make sure that where there are existing contracts? they are aware of the extra energy efficiency support that they can have. Gregory Barker: There is nothing retrospective about the proposals that we are consulting on. The hon. Lady Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): How does my hon. must accept that demand for the scheme is overwhelming Friend believe that the practice of falling block tariffs compared with the budget that is available, and way and direct debit discounts for the comfortably off helps beyond that which was anticipated by her own Government. to address fuel poverty? We have to make very difficult decisions in balancing one factor against the other, but at the centre of our Charles Hendry: My hon. Friend raises the important decision-making process will be a concern to ensure issue of whether people should pay more for the additional that this is a viable scheme that keeps the industry alive units they use or whether the level should drop. Our for the long term and does not support a short-term concern about moving to a rising rate is that children, bubble. pensioners or people with disabilities who are at home Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op) rose— more and need more warmth could be adversely hit by such a change. Not only the larger properties and the Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab) rose— richer families would be affected; it could easily also affect those whom we are most keen to support and Mr Speaker: Order. Although I accept that the same help. sun shines on all three places, Huddersfield and Lewisham, Deptford are rather a long way away from Stoke-on-Trent, Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): Does to which this question is confined. the green deal Minister remember telling the Energy Bill Committee that he fully expected the energy company Domestic Energy Bills obligation to provide a far greater level of support to tackle fuel poverty than either the carbon emissions 6. Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) reduction target or Warm Front? In what way is ECO’s (LD): What recent assessment he has made of the pitifully small £325 million a year for fuel-poor homes a effects of Government policy on household energy far greater level of resource than the 2010-11 Warm bills. [83966] Front spending of £370 million or CERT spending of about £600 million on priority groups? The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Chris Huhne): I am delighted to say, Mr Speaker, that I Charles Hendry: I am sure that the hon. Lady is do have the answer to this question. aware that this is funding that people can have in On 23 November, DECC published its updated addition to the green deal support. It is designed to assessment of the impact of energy and climate change make sure that there is a comprehensive approach. We policies on energy prices and bills. The latest estimates have sought to ensure that we have an holistic approach show that the average household dual fuel bill is currently and that we do more on energy efficiency and on 2% higher than it would have been if energy and climate assisting poorer households. We are trying to make sure change policies were not introduced. By 2020, these that we do this in the most effective way possible. policies will mean that the average household dual fuel bill will be 7% lower than it would have been in the same Feed-in Tariffs (Stoke-on-Trent) year in the absence of our policies. Annette Brooke: I thank the Secretary of State for 5. Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab): What that answer. Would he be prepared to work with the representations he has received on feed-in tariffs from Department for Communities and Local Government people in Stoke-on-Trent. [83964] to see how the benefits of the discount schemes for people on low incomes could be extended to park The Minister of State, Department of Energy and homes, where the site owner is likely to buy in bulk and Climate Change (Gregory Barker): The Department has then resell, perhaps at quite a high price? To help the received a significant number of telephone inquiries, very vulnerable people in park homes, could there be a responses to consultation exercises and other pieces of specific campaign to tell park home owners that they correspondence relating to the consultation on feed-in are eligible for the green deal? tariffs. These are very likely to have included representations from the people of Stoke-on-Trent. However, at this Chris Huhne: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that early stage I am afraid that I cannot give the hon. Lady question. As a long-standing campaigner for people a detailed breakdown. who live in park homes, she knows that they are far too often overlooked in schemes that benefit people who Joan Walley: The Minister did in fact receive a letter live in substantial and ordinary properties. It is crucial from the chief executive and leader of Stoke-on-Trent that we have the dialogue that she asks for to ensure that council telling him that what is at stake with the we help those people as far as we can. There are Government’s review of the feed-in tariff is 100 jobs obviously practical issues that we need to address. We and 4,000 council homes that will lose their opportunity will try to get to the bottom of this. 1069 Oral Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 1070

Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): The Gregory Barker: What we intend to do is to put the Minister may not know that Huddersfield has a twinning industry back on a sustainable path to growth, far more arrangement with Stoke-on-Trent and that we work in line with the projections that were made by the very closely together. People in Huddersfield, like the former Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change people in Dorset and Stoke-on-Trent, are sick to death who is now the Leader of the Opposition. We need a with the cost of energy. They want a more visible, scheme that supports the industry but does not impose muscular effort from this Government to take on the burdens unnecessarily on hard-pressed consumers. energy companies, many of which are foreign-owned, and make them do their job. Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and Sheppey) (Con): Will my hon. Friend explain why the cut-off date of Chris Huhne: I am sure that Mr Speaker is aware of 12 December for new projects to be accepted at the Yorkshire’s unilateral declaration of independence, which current feed-in tariff is different from the consultation allows twinning arrangements to be entered into between end date of 23 December? Why the two-week gap? towns in Yorkshire and towns elsewhere in the country. The hon. Gentleman made a serious point about Gregory Barker: The reference date of 12 December energy costs. I assure him that we are doing more than is what we are consulting on, but the changes that we was done under the Government whom he supported are proposing would not actually kick in until the for 13 years to make this market as competitive as beginning of April. We had to choose a date that we possible. We have just had the Ofgem retail review and thought fair to allow people who had contracts in the its proposals to simplify the tariffs dramatically to make pipeline to complete those contracts, but without allowing things much easier for consumers. We have introduced a sufficient time for people to enter the market who were clear limit on the period in which the energy companies not already engaged in the process, and we chose April. have to switch people over. We are doing everything we can to make this a competitive market, at both the retail Caroline Flint (Don Valley) (Lab): We all know that end and the wholesale end. That is the best guarantee the Government’s consultation, which will last half the for every consumer in this country, be they in Huddersfield normal length of time and close after the cuts have or Stoke-on-Trent, that they will get the best possible already come into effect, is a sham. Because of the deal. Government’s rushed changes to the feed-in tariff, which go too far, too fast, thousands of jobs are at risk. Last Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Will the Secretary of night, 4,500 staff at Carillion were warned that their State work with colleagues to establish a cost of warmth jobs could go, but this morning the Secretary of State index, which could usefully inform the work of his told the “Today” programme that he did not recognise Department, the Department for Work and Pensions, that estimate, and that the cuts and job losses that he the Treasury and Parliament? will cause were just a “sensible course correction”. Does the Minister believe that causing unemployment on that Chris Huhne: That is an interesting thought and I scale is a price worth paying? would certainly be interested to see more from the hon. Gentleman about this issue. I can see practical difficulties, Gregory Barker: It is so interesting how the right hon. given that warmth comes from so many different sources. Lady comes to the House with such inconsistent messages. For example, people who are off-gas grid and are reliant One moment she wants to protect the consumer, the on heating oil may have substantially different problems next she wants to push high costs on to consumer bills from those who are on-gas grid and are able to avail without a thought for the fuel-poor. The fact is that we themselves of a number of things. I would certainly be are doing our best to contain a bubble caused by the prepared to look at the idea if the hon. Gentleman put ineffective scheme that her Government set up. We will something on paper and sent it over. put the industry back on a sustainable footing and do the right thing by the consumers whom she has conveniently Feed-in Tariffs (Consultation) forgotten.

7. Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): Caroline Flint: Sorry excuses for a disastrous policy. I What representations he has received on the length of think it is 60p on an annual bill—in fact, in answer to a time allocated to his consultation on feed-in tariffs for parliamentary question last week we were told that it solar PV; and if he will make a statement. [83968] was only 21p on the annual bill from 2010 to 2011. The fact is that the Minister’s cuts will hit families trying to The Minister of State, Department of Energy and protect themselves from soaring energy bills, put thousands Climate Change (Gregory Barker): The Department has of jobs and businesses in jeopardy and give lie to the received a number of representations in response to our Government’s promise to be the greenest Government proposals to reduce feed-in tariffs for solar PV, including ever. the length of time allocated to our consultation. The Last week, we read reports in the press about a consultation closes on Friday 23 December. Detailed meeting in the Minister’s Department between officials information on the representations will be provided in and the solar industry, in which officials said that the the Government’s response to the consultation in January. cuts to feed-in tariffs were part of a deliberate policy to kill off the solar industry. Will he come clean today and Mr Cunningham: Is the Minister aware that many say that that is not his policy? If not, even at the people who have given up their jobs or borrowed money eleventh hour and despite the damage that has been from banks to invest in this area stand to lose out? What done, will he change course to enable solar to be put on does he intend to do about that? a real sustainable footing for the future? 1071 Oral Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 1072

Gregory Barker: I think this ridiculous scaremongering Durban Climate Change Conference is quite disgraceful. The right hon. Lady wants to talk up the problem and talk down the industry, and this 9. Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) pathetic attempt to smear my officials is frankly repugnant. (Lab): What steps he is taking to secure agreement on It is her scheme that we are trying to fix—it was put in climate finance in advance of the Durban climate place by the last Labour Government. We will fix it and change conference. [83970] put the industry on a sustainable footing, but we should not take any lessons on budgetary control from the The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change party that left us with a catastrophic deficit and drove (Chris Huhne): There are three main elements. On fast-start this country to the brink of ruin. Shame on you! finance to developing countries, I am proud to say that the Government are on track to deliver our £1.5 billion Renewable Heat Incentive pledge. We want other donors to do the same. On long-term sources of climate finance, we are at the 8. Dr Daniel Poulter (Central Suffolk and North forefront of pushing for new sources of public and Ipswich) (Con): What assessment he has made of the private finance and we want others to join us there too. potential benefits of the renewable heat incentive for Lastly, we will push for the green climate fund to be rural and remote households. [83969] operationalised in Durban as part of a balanced outcome to the negotiations. Mr Speaker: I call the Minister, if he has recovered his composure. Catherine McKinnell: I thank the Secretary of State for that answer, but recent press reports suggest that The Minister of State, Department of Energy and countries might not be able to reach an agreement at Climate Change (Gregory Barker): The renewable heat Durban even on the green climate fund, which had been premium payment, the initial heat support scheme launched the only realistic expected outcome prior to the summit. on 1 August, is targeted at off-gas-grid homes, particularly What steps are the UK Government taking to ensure those in rural and remote areas. It is too early to make that countries reach an agreement on the structure, an accurate assessment of the benefits, but we intend to operation and finance of the fund? evaluate them fully next year to feed into developing future support for renewable heat. Chris Huhne: My officials are working diligently on that. We want as many outcomes at Durban to Dr Poulter: The Minister will be aware that 8% of operationalise the agreements at Cancun as we can get. UK households rely on oil for their central heating, I do not agree with the hon. Lady that that is the only many of which are in rural and remote communities, potential outcome. One of the most important things and that many people who use oil central heating are we can hope to get out of Durban if the talks go well is the frail elderly and people on fixed incomes. When he a commitment from all parties to ensure that we have an consults on the feed-in tariffs, will he look into the overarching legal framework. We can negotiate that and advantages of biofuels as a means of both driving down we could also respect the science by ensuring that we carbon emissions and supporting lower energy bills in peak global emissions by 2020. rural communities? Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab): I am sure the Gregory Barker: My hon. Friend makes some excellent Secretary of State will agree that financing for climate points. Sustainably sourced biofuels for electricity, including change measures is absolutely vital and that we have a bioliquids, are already supported under the renewables very short period of time if we are not to feel the obligation, but they are not currently supported by the adverse affects of climate change. Does he agree with feed-in tariffs. We will launch phase 2 of the feed-in many groups, including the World Bank, the International tariff comprehensive review, which will consider their Monetary Fund and the shipping industry, that a global potential expansion to new technologies such as bioliquids. tax on shipping is one way in which we could achieve a I certainly take his points on board. fair and sustainable way of financing climate change measures? Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): Does the Minister consider that the renewable heat incentive Chris Huhne: I certainly believe that a levy—a bunker makes sufficient provision for the encouragement of fuels duty or whatever—is one potential way of raising domestic and small-scale combined heat and power the finance necessary. That was a recommendation in boilers, which are particularly appropriate to off-grid the report of the advisory group on finance, which was households but may not be fully covered by the provisions set up by the UN Secretary-General and in which I was of the RHI because they are not necessarily supplied by honoured to participate. That is one of the most likely fully biogas-based sources? Is he willing to investigate ways forward in breaking the back of that particular that and consider whether the RHI could support such problem. devices to a better extent? Green Deal Gregory Barker: I am very willing to do so indeed. The RHI has not been launched in full for domestic 11. Shabana Mahmood (Birmingham, Ladywood) appliances—we are currently trialling it with the RHPP— (Lab): What progress he has made in establishing the but I am keen to support micro-CHP in the way that the green deal. [83972] hon. Gentleman suggests. He is an expert on this area and I would be happy to work with him to see what 15. Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab): further support we need to drive forward this exciting What progress he has made in introducing the green technology. deal; and if he will make a statement. [83976] 1073 Oral Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 1074

The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change Chris Huhne: It is a very interesting idea and one that (Chris Huhne): The green deal is a coalition agreement certainly merits further consideration. I am delighted to and a priority for this Government. We established the say that the Minister of State, Department of Energy legal underpinning for green deal through the Energy and Climate Change, my hon. Friend the hon. Member Act 2011 and recently launched our consultation on for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker), will be very secondary legislation, which will guide the detailed happy to meet my hon. Friend to take that matter operation of the scheme. I am encouraged by the support further. we have had in developing this policy and the interest shown by a broad range of organisations in playing a Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): role. We have heard a lot about interest rates this week. Affordable interest rates for green deal finance will be Shabana Mahmood: The green deal consultation sets crucial if consumers are to take up the green deal at the out the Government’s plan to give three times as much scale and level the Government anticipate. A report by subsidy to able-to-pay households than to fuel-poor E3G says that relying on commercial loans could mean households that take up the green deal. Why are Ministers interest rates as high as 8%, 9% or even 10%. Polling has giving three times more help to home owners who can found that only 7% of the British public and homeowners afford to pay for improvements than to people living in would be interested in taking up the green deal if fuel poverty? interest rates were as high as that. Given that, what specifically are the Government doing to get green deal Chris Huhne: The hon. Lady should be aware that the interest rates down? eco-subsidy is replacing two elements that we inherited from the previous Government: the Warm Front scheme, Chris Huhne: We are working closely with a group of which was aimed at helping those in fuel poverty, and interested parties to provide a finance aggregator for the carbon emissions reduction target and community the green deal, which is exciting and will bring forward energy saving programme schemes, which were aimed finance that is substantially cheaper than that estimated generally at householders. The proportions are broadly by E3G. We will announce the details of the scheme similar, so I do not accept that this is a departure in when we have them. policy in terms of prioritisation. She will be aware that the warm home discount is aimed at those in fuel poverty—it will give two thirds more support to those Luciana Berger: I thank the Secretary of State for in fuel poverty and will be targeted on the 600,000 most that answer. The aggregator to which he refers is the needy pensioners. That is a statutory scheme, which Green Deal Finance Company, which is working very compares with the voluntary one under the previous hard to try to lower interest rates. It estimates that it will Labour Government. need in the region of hundreds of millions of pounds from the Green investment bank properly to fund the Gordon Banks: In answer to earlier questions, Ministers initial capitalisation of green deal loans and to act as said that the green deal is with us and working here and the catalyst that the green deal market needs. Without now, but it is not. The Government are scrapping Warm such funding, interest rates will be higher than 10% and Front and delays with the green deal mean that they will the green deal will, therefore, surely fail. A moment ago, be the first Government since the 1970s who have not the Secretary of State said that he envisaged that the had a fuel efficiency programme. At the same time, they Green investment bank would provide some support for are downgrading the number of jobs that will be created the green deal and that it could play a very important by the green deal by 35,000. The question is simple: role. Will he tell us definitively today whether the Green why? Deal Finance Company will receive that scale of funding from the Green investment bank? Chris Huhne: The eco-consultation and that jobs estimate obviously came out before the Chancellor’s Chris Huhne: Obviously, it is up to the Green investment announcement in the autumn statement of £200 million bank board to make its decisions, but it is clear that it is of incentives for the uptake of the green deal. Those interested in helping energy efficiency and ensuring that introductory incentives have been warmly welcomed green deal finance gets off to a good start. Let me make across the industry and will ensure that we have substantial it clear how this particular market is structured. Green uptake of the green deal. On the point about funding, deal receivables—please excuse me Mr Speaker for reverting the whole model of providing energy efficiency changes to financial market jargon—are very similar to utility with the green deal. That was supported across the receivables. As soon as the market is established and we House, including by the last Labour Government. It secure a couple of deals, the Green investment bank’s will, I believe, unlock substantially more money that support will become important. The market will then be was ever available from publicly funded, Exchequer-funded happy to finance this on terms similar to utility receivables. sources. If it does that, we will be looking at substantially lower interest rates than the ones the hon. Lady has been Mr Speaker: Order. I hope that the Secretary of State citing. will not overuse his renewables. Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): The Green Alliance Energy Infrastructure has conducted three constituency pilot workshops in my constituency of Hexham, in Bristol North West and 12. Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab): What in Redcar today. Will the Minister meet the Green discussions he has had with the Chancellor of the Alliance and me before Christmas to discuss the outcomes Exchequer on the implications of the autumn for the green deal that we studied for some considerable statement for investment in energy infrastructure and time only last month? onshore wind farms. [83973] 1075 Oral Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 1076

The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change Chris Huhne: The 2016 date is the end date for the (Chris Huhne): I have been fully engaged with the competition run by the EU Commission. We hope to be development of the infrastructure theme of the growth able to support those projects in the UK that the review, embodied in the accompanying national Commission decides it is sensible to support, but there infrastructure plan 2011 and announced in the Chancellor’s will be other projects too. The £1 billion is not necessarily autumn statement. I welcome the inclusion of measures available to fund the up-front capital costs entirely. If relating to energy infrastructure, including onshore wind. we can get private money into a scheme—such as the These will help to deliver our ambition for a secure, low one I saw yesterday at Ferrybridge, where we invested carbon and affordable energy system. £6 million despite the total cost being about £250 million— that is the right way to go. The Government are about Chris Williamson: This was supposed to be the greenest using public money as effectively as possible to bring in Government ever. The Secretary of State has already private sector money as well. undermined solar energy and torpedoed carbon capture and storage. His attempts on the “Today” programme Shale Gas to distance himself from the Chancellor’s autumn statement cannot conceal the fact that his green credentials lie in 13. Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): What tatters. Can he explain to the House why he has been so recent assessment he has made of the prospects for singularly unsuccessful in securing the investment that shale gas in the UK. [83974] we so desperately need for a low carbon economy? The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Chris Huhne: I think we must have been living in Climate Change (Charles Hendry): Exploration for shale different worlds. The Government’s achievements on gas in the UK has only recently started, and it will be the green agenda since the election include electricity some years before the prospects for production in our market reform, the green deal in the Energy Act 2011 geological, regulatory and economic conditions, and and the pioneering renewable heat incentive. Furthermore, the economic prospects for the industry, can be fully we have brought forward the subsidy review for renewables, assessed. However, a British Geological Survey study which was widely welcomed by the sector, and secured last year estimated that UK shales might yield some £1 billion for the carbon capture and storage programme. 150 billion cubic metres of gas—equivalent to roughly Indeed, yesterday I visited a CCS pilot partially funded two years’ demand. Work is in hand to update these by Government money. I think that the hon. Gentleman geological estimates in the light of more recent information, is overlooking many achievements on the green agenda including Cuadrilla’s estimate of gas in place under its that do indeed mean that we are on course to be the licences in Lancashire. greenest Government ever. Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): In interviews at the Glyn Davies: Media reports in the US state that shale time of the autumn statement, the Chief Secretary to gas discoveries have reinvigorated US oil and gas the Treasury announced casually that the money for the production. There have been substantial discoveries of CCS project was being reallocated and would not be shale gas in the UK, as the Minister mentioned, so required until well into the next Parliament. Given that does he agree that the UK could learn lessons from the Secretary of State has already pulled the rug from the US experience with a view to developing shale gas in under Longannet, is this not clear evidence that he has the UK? abandoned any hope of developing CCS as a potential Charles Hendry: My hon. Friend is right to point to export industry? the lessons from the United States. Shale gas has Chris Huhne: Absolutely not. By the way, the hon. transformed the energy outlook there and potentially Gentleman did not quote the Chief Secretary precisely. turned the US from a gas importer to a gas exporter. The Chief Secretary pointed out that money was absolutely There might be lessons to learn, but there are very available for a CCS project. Indeed, all the negotiators different rules here on land ownership that will make involved in the Longannet project recognised that although things much more complicated. We are a much more the money was not enough to make Longannet work, it densely populated area, and other countries such as would be enough to make a CCS project work elsewhere. Poland and elsewhere are clearly attracting interest in The reality is that there will be some slippage. The this connection, but we will explore the matter. There profiling of that £1 billion in the comprehensive spending are no barriers to doing so but nevertheless we recognise review was heavily weighted towards the last year of the the limitations. CSR, and if there is slippage it is bound to be in the next CSR. However, we will make profiling decisions on Green Economy expenditure for CCS when the projects come forward following the competition next year, and I can assure 14. Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab): What recent the hon. Gentleman that the money is available to fund discussions he has had on investment in jobs and skills them. in the green economy. [83975] Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change Co-op): The Secretary of State has just reiterated his (Chris Huhne): I have had many recent discussions with claim last month that the £1 billion for CCS is safe. If the Chancellor and others on jobs and skills in the green so, will projects, including at Peterhead and elsewhere, economy. Green growth has been considered across all aiming to be up and running before the end of this strands of the growth review, and I welcome recent Parliament still have access to that £1 billion? If so, how announcements in this area, including on the green does that square with the comments from his Cabinet deal, which could support at least 65,000 insulation and colleague, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury? construction jobs by 2015. 1077 Oral Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 1078

Mr Wright: I previously asked the Minister of State, Topical Questions the hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker). the same question, but he made such a mess of it that I T1. [83983] Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): If he am pleased that the Secretary of State is having a go. will make a statement on his departmental Why in the past year has Britain slipped from third in responsibilities. the world to 13th for investment in green technology? The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Chris Huhne): Since my Department’s last question Chris Huhne: Clearly the hon. Gentleman understands time, I have published the annual energy statement and that investment in these terms is often a lagging indicator, the green deal consultation, announced a comprehensive and the last Government were sadly remiss in coming review of feed-in tariffs, launched the renewable heat forward with adequate incentives—for renewables incentive and confirmed £200 million additional funding investment, for example. I am delighted to say that we for the green deal. Today I am publishing the carbon have brought forward the renewables review and provided plan and the Government’s response to both Dr Mike the certainty that the industry required, and I am sure Weightman’s final report and the consultation on the that our position will improve in future rankings. long-term management of the UK’s plutonium stock. Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab): But how Next week the Minister of State, my hon. Friend the does the Secretary of State square the changes to feed-in Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker), and I tariffs with promoting a green economy? In just one will attend the 17th conference of the parties to the UN small scheme by the Peabody housing association in my framework convention on climate change in Durban. constituency, the four jobs at the association are at risk, Barry Gardiner: The Department says, “It’s the Treasury,” the eight apprenticeships are at risk and the 100 jobs at the Treasury says, “It’s the Office for National Statistics,” Breyer, which is installing the scheme, are also at risk. and the ONS says, “It’s not us.” So will the Secretary of The Secretary of State is killing the solar industry and State please publish the definitive advice as to why the he must know it. climate change levy fund for feed-in tariffs for solar has to be counted on the Government balance sheet? Is he Chris Huhne: That is absolutely not the case. The aware that the European courts have recently ruled that right hon. Lady knows very well the importance of a similar scheme in Germany need not do so? sustainability, because—if I may pay tribute to her—she has a long track record in this House of standing up for Chris Huhne: One of the key issues is not whether sustainability. However, sustainability does not apply something is on the Government’s balance sheet, but merely to environmental matters; it applies also to what the effect on consumer bills is. The hon. Gentleman budgets and the growth of industry, and we are putting cannot, sadly, wave away the question of whether this the solar industry on a sustainable basis for growth. measure will add at least £26 to consumer bills in 2020, and possibly as much as £80. I will happily take this Energy Credit issue away and look into exactly which Department is meant to come forward, but I return to the point that 17. Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con): What what he needs to take into account is not whether recent discussions he has had with energy suppliers on something is on the balance sheet but what consumer the provision of credit for energy supply to new costs are. [Interruption.] The right hon. Member for businesses; and what assessment he has made of the Don Valley (Caroline Flint) is muttering at me from a effect on growth of the level of deposit currently sedentary position, but she claimed recently that she required. [83979] cared about consumer costs, and I do not seem to see that now. The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Charles Hendry): The level of security T2. [83984] Mr Edward Timpson (Crewe and Nantwich) deposits is a matter of negotiation between individual (Con): Will the Minister join me in congratulating businesses and energy suppliers. If the terms of an Bentley Motors in my constituency on becoming the energy supply contract are felt to be unreasonable, first plant in the UK car industry to achieve the new businesses should seek to obtain a supply from an global energy management standard, snappily entitled alternative provider or seek independent advice from the ISO 50001? What are the Government doing to Consumer Direct. ensure that businesses like Bentley can continue to meet their renewable energy targets by investing in Craig Whittaker: I thank the Minister for that reply, alternative energy sources? but requests from energy companies for large deposits up front is an increasing issue for new businesses in The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Calder Valley, as well as those being taken over by new Climate Change (Charles Hendry): I was delighted to owners. Will he reassure Calder Valley business people have a chance to visit Bentley recently with my hon. that the heavy-armed tactics that energy companies are Friend to see the work it is doing. I pay tribute to using will be looked at and pressure brought to bear? Bentley and to Volkswagen, the parent company, for the investment that they have put in place. There are systems Charles Hendry: My hon. Friend raises an important in the CRC—carbon reduction commitment—energy issue, and I am grateful to him for raising it with me efficiency scheme that help to encourage companies to previously in a meeting. I understand the concerns improve their energy efficiency. Companies can qualify facing businesses in Calder Valley and elsewhere. There for climate change agreements through which they receive are issues that Ofgem should be looking into, and I am discount on the climate change levy in return for meeting happy to write and draw its attention to them. Indeed, energy efficiency targets. Many measures are already in Ofgem has recently said that it is doing more to try to place, but I congratulate the company my hon. Friend ensure that businesses get a fair deal in this regard. mentions on what it has already achieved. 1079 Oral Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 1080

T3. [83985] John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): China is join me on 12 December when I host a round table doing it and Germany is doing it—reducing their specifically for small and medium-sized enterprises to reliance on Russian gas and Arab oil—so when will this work out how they can become key delivery partners in useless coalition start standing up for the long-term the green deal, which will provide a huge opportunity British national economic interest? for local partnerships in exactly the way my hon. Friend suggests. Chris Huhne: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for eloquently making a point that I have made on many Mr Speaker: I call Mr Denis MacShane. Not here. occasions. He will be pleased to see that the carbon plan contains a substantial discussion on exactly that issue. Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): Can the Secretary We are at a key turning point. Do we move forward to a of State deny the outrageous claims that his own personal position in 2050 where we will be reliant on imported consumption of energy is about to be similar to that of energy for £9 out of £10 of our energy needs, or do we a small town? Can he confirm for the House that he move forward to a position where we can be much more believes in leading the energy green crusade by example secure, much more energy independent and, indeed, rather than just by exhortation? make substantial improvements to our efforts on climate change? Chris Huhne: I certainly can. I shall have to ask whether it is Huddersfield or Stoke-on-Trent whose T4. [83986] Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con): I recently energy I am meant to be consuming. I must admit I am took part in a conference, organised by Wandsworth not sighted on that issue, but if the hon. Gentleman Friends of the Earth and a number of local churches, would like to write to me, I will be happy to give him a which was focused on climate change and energy full reply. I can assure him that I am not a small town saving. One of the speakers, an architect, illustrated the and that my personal energy consumption is nothing enormous savings she had been able to make in a like one! Victorian-era house through careful use of insulation and other methods. Does the Secretary of State share John Pugh (Southport) (LD): May I return the Minister the encouragement this gave me that the green deal has to the subject of shale gas? Given the figures that have much to offer constituents living in older houses? been announced for gas in place in the Bowland field, is it not important for the Government to form an early Chris Huhne: It certainly does. My hon. Friend makes view on what can be economically and safely extracted? a very sensible point. It is precisely that sort of home, built before the first world war, for which we are going Charles Hendry: A great deal of work needs to be for the first time to be able to offer a substantial holistic done to assess the role that shale gas can play. We are refit, precisely because of the support given to solid wall aware of the gas-in-place estimate, but it is very different insulation. from an estimate of the amount of gas that may be T5. [83987] Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab): recoverable. Much more research is needed, but we are The Secretary of State will be aware that in the last satisfied that if the extraction goes ahead, it can take few days the National Grid Company has said it place under the existing legislative requirements relating would welcome greater independent auditing of its to safety and environmental protection. contracting arrangements with STOR—short-term operating reserve—aggregators. Given that the T8. [83990] John Robertson (Glasgow North West) National Grid admits that it buys 500 phantom MW a (Lab): An early-day motion tabled today, signed by me year, which it presumably passes on to consumers, will and the hon. Members for St Ives (Andrew George), the Secretary of State now insist on independent for South Suffolk (Mr Yeo) and for Brighton, Pavilion auditing of this relationship with STOR aggregators so (Caroline Lucas), calls on Ofgem to raise the level of that consumers get a fairer deal? debt for which pre-payment meter customers can switch suppliers from £200 to £350. According to the Charles Hendry: The hon. Gentleman raises an important House of Commons Library, that would help more issue. We have had discussions with the National Grid than 200,000 people immediately. Can we rely on the Company about this matter and we are glad that it Secretary of State’s support? recognises the scale of the problem. We will work with the National Grid to try to make sure that it is addressed. Chris Huhne: We are working on a number of issues to try to ensure that those with pre-payment meters are T6. [83988] Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) given the best possible deal—that they can switch easily, (Con): In my constituency, there are plenty of small and can opt for credit rather than pre-payment meters businesses, co-operatives and charities that wish to play when that will help them. And yes, the hon. Gentleman their part in building a greener economy. Many are can be assured that we will continue to pursue that concerned about some of the changes to feed-in tariffs agenda as vigorously as possible. but are hopeful that other measures such as the green deal will enable them to grow. Will the Minister give an John Glen (Salisbury) (Con): When considering the assurance that the Government will make it as easy as green deal and energy efficiency measures generally, possible for small businesses to get involved in the does the Minister take into account the potential damage delivery of the green deal? caused to property by condensation, which outweighs some of the advantages of some of those measures? The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Will he meet me and one of my constituents to discuss Climate Change (Gregory Barker): I can give my hon. that growing problem, which compromises so much of Friend an absolute assurance. In fact, he may like to what the Government are trying to achieve? 1081 Oral Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 1082

Gregory Barker: I should be happy to do so. It is true of real people’s jobs at risk by slashing feed-in tariffs? that older properties without damp courses, many of The Minister accused my right hon. Friend the Member which were built before the first world war, are more for Don Valley (Caroline Flint) of scaremongering earlier, difficult to treat, and much more research and development but redundancy notices have been served to 4,500 employees. is needed to ensure that we do not unintentionally cause more problems than we solve. Gregory Barker: The hon. Gentleman makes a legitimate point. Obviously, we are concerned about any job losses T9. [83991] Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and anywhere in the economy, and I will, of course, be very Leith) (Lab/Co-op): I am glad to hear that the happy to meet him and his hon. Friend. Secretary of State and the Minister are going to the climate change conference in Durban next week, but Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): As Leeds, has the Secretary of State not left it too late? Is there Yorkshire is the second largest financial centre in the not a danger that the conference will not produce the UK and a leader in green energy investment, does outcome that we want? What is the Secretary of State the ministerial team agree that it is the ideal location for doing to ensure that we secure an international the Green investment bank? agreement, especially in the light of reports that have appeared over the past few days of a lack of progress in Chris Huhne: The ministerial team is acutely aware the negotiations? that it must represent all parts of the United Kingdom and that many places have a substantial and impressive Chris Huhne: The hon. Gentleman has a long-standing claim to be the home of the Green investment bank. We interest and expertise in this matter, and I am delighted await with interest the advice of the advisory board. to answer his question. I could not have gone to Durban any earlier than Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- Sunday, because that is the beginning of the ministerial op): I was very pleased to hear Ministers recognise the segment, but the hon. Gentleman can be assured that I problems of people on prepayment arrangements for have been involved in talks with a number of other electricity. Will the Secretary of State say what specific ministerial participants ahead of the conference, including action he will take to ensure that those who cannot Chinese, Colombian and South African Ministers. I switch to credit arrangements do not end up on higher believe that we have a real chance of making progress. tariffs than those who can afford to pay by direct debit? Some of the gloomiest reporting tends to appear just before the talks begin in earnest, and I have not given Chris Huhne: We will continue to investigate this up yet. matter with the energy companies. Some people on prepayment meters used to pay higher tariffs than even Mr Speaker: I am pleased to learn about the ministerial the standard rate, but that is no longer the case and they segment, of which I had not previously heard. now pay less. That is a substantial step forward, but it is not the end of the story. We will continue to work on Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): I know that this, as I am aware—as is the right hon. Member for our splendid Liberal Democrat Secretary of State believes Don Valley (Caroline Flint)—that it is a key area of passionately in localism. Can he explain why, having vulnerability. been rejected, the proposed Nun Wood wind farm development, which covers three parliamentary Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and Sheppey) (Con): constituencies and is opposed by the three Members of The planned roll-out of smart meters across the UK Parliament and the three local authorities concerned, will entail millions of homes being fitted with new has suddenly been granted approval on appeal? That devices. Will steps be taken to ensure that such devices cannot be localism at work. are interoperable so that they do not act as a disincentive to consumers switching suppliers in order to get a better Charles Hendry: My hon. Friend has made an important deal? point. In future, as a result of one of the changes that we are making to the planning system, it will not be possible to overrule such decisions on appeal simply Charles Hendry: My hon. Friend makes a very important because the developments involved meet a regional point. That is fundamental to our approach. Smart renewable energy target. That target has been removed, meters are designed to give consumers more control and we are giving much more authority and many more over the energy they use in their homes, and allowing decision-making powers to local bodies. Applications people to switch and take advantage of different tariffs involving more than 50 MW will be submitted to the will be a fundamental part of their success. Infrastructure Planning Commission and then to Ministers for approval, but we are determined to strike the right Several hon. Members rose— balance between local and national interests. Mr Speaker: I would have called Mr Sammy Wilson Mr Speaker: I call Ian Murray. He is not here, so I if he were standing, but I won’t because he isn’t. Instead, call Ian Mearns. I call Mr Nigel Dodds.

Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): Will the Secretary of Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): I am very State agree to meet me and my hon. Friend the Member grateful for the advantage given to me by my colleague. for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) to What action has been taken to deal with Northern discuss the announcement of redundancies by Carillion Ireland’s especially high dependence on home heating Energy Services, which employs people in both our oil, given that a number of the current initiatives to constituencies, and the fact that he is putting thousands tackle fuel poverty do not apply to Northern Ireland? 1083 Oral Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 1084

Charles Hendry: The right hon. Gentleman raises an dramatically simplifying the range of tariffs. Ofgem issue that is of even greater importance in Northern states that there must be a standard tariff that every Ireland than anywhere else in the country. I recently met company must apply in a similar way, and also that the Bord Gáis to talk about some of its plans for extending variable tariffs must meet certain conditions. This is all the gas grid in Northern Ireland. I welcome those part of trying to ensure that charging is much more investments, and in addition the Office of Fair Trading straightforward and clearer for consumers, so they can has taken measures to ensure that the market operates see whether they are getting a good deal and switch if fairly and properly in the interests of consumers. The necessary. OFT has committed to continuing to investigate any examples of market abuse. Several hon. Members rose—

Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): Does Mr Speaker: The only hon. Member standing who the Secretary of State share my pleasure in the fact that has not had a go is Chi Onwurah. the Daylight Savings Bill will finally reach its Committee stage next week, and does he agree that it makes sense Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): for us to align our lives more with daylight hours? That Thank you, Mr Speaker. As my hon. Friend the Member will support tourism, help business and reduce carbon for Gateshead (Ian Mearns) said, many of our constituents emissions. face unemployment as a direct consequence of the inept Chris Huhne: I am certainly interested to see the Bill’s and unfair way this Government have introduced the progress, and I look forward to the full consultations changes to the feed-in tariffs. What are the Government with all interested parties, including the devolved doing to give them security in their jobs and to give Administrations, which might allow us to come to a some certainty to the industry? satisfactory conclusion. Chris Huhne: None of us wants to see anybody facing Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): Will the Government, uncertainty about their employment prospects. The reality along with Ofgem, urgently look again at standing is that we must ensure a sustainable future for the solar charges? In my constituency, Scottish Power has recently industry that is based on a budget that will last rather raised the daily standing charge from 15p to 31p, thus at than one that runs out so quickly that the industry a stroke adding £50 to my constituents’ bills. comes to a grinding halt. The key thing for us is to ensure that we are on-track to deliver our goals for the Charles Hendry: I urge the right hon. Gentleman to low-carbon economy, including all the employment consider the announcements Ofgem has made today, opportunities, and we will do that. 1085 1 DECEMBER 2011 Business of the House 1086

Business of the House schedule just announced, which takes us to almost the very end of the session, is no different. Perhaps the Government are responding to the dark days of winter 11.34 am and the even darker days of the economic crisis they Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab): have helped to create by going into hibernation. After Will the Leader of the House give us the future business? just 18 months in government, they have run out of ideas while their economic policy has run into the sand. The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George At a time when millions of families are desperately Young): The business for the week commencing 5 December worried about what the future holds, the Government is as follows: are showing how desperately out of touch they are by offering no new legislation and not a single debate of MONDAY 5DECEMBER—Motion relating to ministerial statements, followed by motion relating to UK extradition any substance. arrangements. Mr Speaker, on Monday you heard a point of order The subjects for these debates were nominated by the from the shadow Leader of the House that raised Backbench Business Committee. concerns about the Government’s deliberate and selective leaking of the autumn statement to the media and you TUESDAY 6DECEMBER—General debate on the economy. responded by expressing your grave concern about those WEDNESDAY 7DECEMBER—Motion relating to the matters. Since then, of course, we have enjoyed the appointment of the chairman of the National Audit rather dubious pleasure of listening to the Chancellor Office, followed by motion relating to the membership deliver his statement on the Floor of the House and, of the Speaker’s Committee on the Independent indeed, it was an illuminating experience, if only in the Parliamentary Standards Authority, followed by motion sense that it revealed the very few details of the statement to approve a European document relating to European that had not already been leaked to the media. How sales law. In addition, the Chairman of Ways and important those small details are, however. We learnt, Means has named the London Local Authorities Bill as for instance, that the Government are unable to meet opposed private business for consideration. the deficit reduction target that they set themselves only THURSDAY 8DECEMBER—Opposition day [un-allotted 18 months ago and that growth forecasts have been day] [half-day]. There will be a debate on a Scottish slashed to 0.9% this year, down from the 1.7% forecast National party-Plaid Cymru motion, subject to be in March, and 0.7% next year, down from 2.5%, the announced, followed by money resolution relating to fourth downgrade since this Government came to power. the Local Government Ombudsman (Amendment) Bill. We also learnt that the Government’s squeeze on living The provisional business for the week commencing standards will be not only severe but prolonged. It will 12 December will include: be extended to six years or longer—a situation not seen in the UK since the last war. MONDAY 12 DECEMBER—General debate on immigration. Despite all the spin in advance of Tuesday, the very TUESDAY 13 DECEMBER—Motion to approve the measures that the Chancellor chose to highlight in his appointment of the chairman of the Statistics Board, leaks have unravelled under close scrutiny. Borrowing is followed by motion to approve a statutory instrument set to spiral by £158 billion, despite promises to balance relating to financial restrictions (Iran), followed by the deficit by 2015. Unemployment is expected to continue Opposition day [un-allotted day] [half-day]. There will to rise for the next two years and £1.3 billion a year will be a debate on a Democratic Unionist party motion, be snatched from children and families after cuts to the subject to be announced. child tax credit and the freezing of the working tax WEDNESDAY 14 DECEMBER—Opposition day [un-allotted credit. Meanwhile, the bankers will contribute just day]. There will be a debate on an Opposition motion, £300 million. After 18 months, the verdict is in—plan A subject to be announced. has failed colossally. So may we have a debate on the THURSDAY 15 DECEMBER—Business to be nominated Chancellor’s autumn statement? It is time for the by the Backbench Business Committee. Government to adopt Labour’s five-point plan and put jobs and growth first. I should also like to inform the House that the business in Westminster Hall for 8 December will be a When listening to the Chancellor’s statement, the debate on the EU Council. House could have been forgiven for thinking that we were back in the 1980s—back to the future. Now we Angela Smith: May I start by placing on the record have the “back to the future jobs fund”. With more an apology from my hon. Friend the shadow Leader of than 1 million young people unemployed, the Government’s the House, who is attending an engagement in her U-turn on tackling youth unemployment is welcome, constituency today and is therefore unable to be with but the devil is always in the detail. May we have a us? In fact, she is welcoming the Queen to officially debate on the measures that have been announced for open a new development. I suggested that she might tackling youth unemployment and how far they will go also want to use the opportunity to ask Her Majesty to toward repairing the damage inflicted by the Government’s look in her diary to check when her Gracious Speech is decision to abolish the future jobs fund in the first likely to take place, so we can finally clear the matter place? Such a debate would provide the Government up—unless, of course, the Leader of the House would with a good opportunity to apologise for their hastiness like to tell us first this morning? in cancelling what was a successful initiative. Will the Leader of the House tell us when the The Government should also apologise for their reckless Government will bring to the House business of any approach to economic management and, more crucially, substance? For some time now, we have seen a distinct they should stop blaming everyone and everything else absence of Government-sponsored business and the when things do not go according to plan A. Last week, 1087 Business of the House1 DECEMBER 2011 Business of the House 1088 we heard that they were not to blame for their planned of the jobs were short-term posts in the public sector; reduction in the feed-in tariff for solar-generated power those in them ended up back on the dole. Our Work and the damage that threatens to inflict on the solar programme is a much more targeted and efficient alternative. industry. We were also told that the reduction was not a On the issues that the hon. Lady raised about climate betrayal of their promise to be the greenest Government change, we have just had Department of Energy and ever. This week, we have also heard that it is not their Climate Change questions, in which there was an fault that there is no guarantee that the £1 billion for opportunity to press the Secretary of State on our carbon capture projects will be forthcoming in the near commitment to our environmental targets, which I am future. However, we then learnt in The Independent that sure that he reasserted. the autumn statement would announce a review of I think that I have answered all the questions that the legislation relating to the protection of precious wildlife hon. Lady put to me. Her last point was to ask whether habitats in the planning process because they are deemed we would stop blaming other people for the problems to be a potential barrier to economic growth. May we that confront us. The Office for Budget Responsibility have a debate about the role of green policy in promoting could not have been clearer about the reasons for the economic growth, given that the Conservative party difficulties that confront the country. The first is issues said, “Vote blue, get green”, whereas the reality is that in the eurozone, the second is the increase in commodity we are not getting very much at all? It will take more prices, and the third is the deep recession that we than a few huskies and a vanity photographer to restore inherited from the Labour party. the Prime Minister’s green credentials. Not only do the Government refuse to respect the Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): On Wednesday, usual courtesies of the House but they refuse to respect more than a third of questions were Opposition Whips’ the promises they made to the electorate or to take questions with exactly the same wording. That blocks responsibility for their actions when things go wrong. Members who really want to ask questions from getting They are out of touch and they are hiding from the their question on the Order Paper. I know that that is electorate and from Members of the House. not something that the Government do. Will the Leader of the House issue a statement next week condemning Sir George Young: May I welcome the hon. Lady to the practice? her debut at business questions? Of course we understand Sir George Young: I think that I am right in saying the absence of the shadow Leader of the House, who is that my hon. Friend raised that issue with you, Mr in her constituency. Speaker, at the end of the question session. As my hon. On the date of Prorogation and the Queen’s Speech, I Friend implies, it is way beyond my remit to comment repeat what I have said in previous questions—we will on the issue, but I would say that there is no evidence at announce those in due course. We have a legislative all of him ever having asked a question given to him by programme going through both Houses, and when that our Whips. programme has made good progress we will be able to announce the dates of Prorogation and the Queen’s Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab): To Speech. help the Leader of the House fill the time before the end The hon. Lady somewhat devalued the debates between of the Session, the Backbench Business Committee will now and Christmas that I have just announced, including conduct a review of its work. To do that, we are sending an Opposition day, which she thinks is of no consequence out a feedback form asking Back Benchers about their at all. There is an important debate on the economy on experiences and ideas for the future of the Committee, Tuesday and some important debates will be chosen by so that we can put forward proposals for its future in the the Backbench Business Committee. I am sure that she new Session. What can he do to help the Committee did not mean to insult the subjects chosen by that promote the survey and encourage Back Benchers to fill Committee by implying that they are not of any importance it in and return it before Christmas? to the House. Sir George Young: I applaud the work that the hon. On the ministerial code, I look forward to the debate Lady and the Backbench Business Committee do, and I on Monday; the Backbench Business Committee has welcome her public service announcement about the brought forward a motion on the subject. I repeat that survey. I would indeed encourage colleagues to complete we are committed to what is in the ministerial code: and return the survey; that will, in due course, inform important announcements should be made to Parliament the review of the Backbench Business Committee that in the first instance. the House has committed to undertake at the end of the When we set the target that the hon. Lady mentioned, Committee’s first year. we gave ourselves an extra year’s headroom, and we Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): May we have an have now used that up, so we are still on track to meet urgent debate on Burma? I am sure that we all welcome the original target. The strategy on which we have the recent release of political prisoners, but there are embarked, which she criticised, has been endorsed by still more than 1,000 being held without charge or trial. the International Monetary Fund, the OECD, the Bank If the Burmese regime is serious about being taken into of England and all credible commentators. It is the the international family and community, it needs to let Labour party alone that wants to embark on a reckless those people go. series of policies that would put at risk the low interest rates that the country now enjoys. Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend I hope that the hon. Lady welcomes the announcement for that. Like him, I welcome the signs of relaxation of made a few days ago on the youth contract. The future some of the extreme measures undertaken by that regime. jobs fund was an expensive use of resources, and many I cannot promise a debate, but I understand that the 1089 Business of the House1 DECEMBER 2011 Business of the House 1090

[Sir George Young] In a breathtaking display of bigotry this week, the Sinn Fein Lord Mayor of Belfast refused to give a Duke Backbench Business Committee has indicated that, on of Edinburgh award to a young Army cadet. That the last day before the Christmas recess, we will have a typifies the intransigence that we see from Sinn Fein: series of Adjournment debates. He might like to apply Sinn Fein Members ignore the electorate by refusing to for one of those. take their seats in the House, yet they get hundreds of thousands of pounds supposedly to carry out parliamentary Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): That was one of businesses. Will the Leader of the House arrange for a the most extraordinary Government business statements debate and a vote so that the issue of the abuse of that I have ever heard—extraordinary for its complete public funds can be dealt with? absence of Government business. Is the Leader of the House not the slightest little bit embarrassed to be Sir George Young: I agree with what the hon. Gentleman scrabbling around, trying to find things for us to do, has just said. He will know that that issue was raised when the Government face the gravest crisis since the yesterday in Northern Ireland questions, and he may 1930s? If I may make one suggestion, how about a have heard what my right hon. Friend the Secretary of debate on the Government’s plan for regional pay rates State said. I understand the disappointment of the in the public sector, which will be absolutely devastating young person who did not receive the medal in the way in south-west England, where we have very low pay in in which they hoped, and I understand the very strong the private sector and, already, the biggest gap in house-price feelings that have been aroused. I remind him of what affordability? my right hon. Friend said when that point was made Sir George Young: On the first point, we are anxious yesterday: to avoid the fiasco that took place in the last Parliament; “The right hon. Gentleman makes an interesting point. The towards the end of a Session, Bills would be rushed armed forces are a wonderful example of people from right across through the House with inadequate consideration. As a the community working together.” result of the way in which we have planned this Session, He went on to draw on the example of the Royal Irish the House has had ample time to discuss legislation. Regiment and the work that it has done in securing The right hon. Gentleman will know that we have two “representatives from right across Northern Ireland and the Houses of Parliament. Bills have to go through both Republic”.—[Official Report, 30 November 2011; Vol.536, c. 925-926.] Houses, and they have to complete the process before I very much hope that we can move forward in a more the House can be prorogued. consensual way than that particular gesture indicated. The legislative programme means that Bills, having gone through the House of Commons, are now in Nicky Morgan (Loughborough) (Con): I know from another place, where they are being considered. I am personal experience and from my postbag in my surprised that the right hon. Gentleman is asking for Loughborough constituency that the lack of access to yet more legislation when, quite often, I receive complaints affordable child care is critical in preventing women from Opposition spokespeople that we legislate too from going back to work. May we have a general debate much and do not give the House adequate time. As for on child care policies? regional pay rates, he will have heard what my right hon. Friend the Chancellor said in the autumn statement: he has asked a commission to look at this and report Sir George Young: I would welcome such a debate, back. and on Tuesday, it may be in order to discuss that. We have announced that we will invest an additional Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): Could we have a road £300 million in child care support under universal credit, safety debate, so that Transport Ministers can explain on top of the £2 billion in the current system. At the to the House and to the country why they are pursuing moment, that provision is available only if someone policies that will result in more crashes, injuries and works more than 16 hours, but we are going to remove deaths, which would be the inevitable consequence of the minimum hours rule. I very much hope that my hon. raising the speed limit to 80 mph, using the hard shoulder Friend welcomes that announcement. for moving traffic, and reducing the frequency of vehicle checks? Last night, St John Ambulance held its inaugural Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): Could we have a national awards. May I suggest that such a debate debate next week about the harmful effects of violent would provide an opportunity to discuss its campaign video games? Last week, the university of Indiana to introduce first aid training in schools, which would published research that showed that regularly playing help to save lives, not increase deaths? those games resulted in physical changes in the brain. At a time when parents are thinking of purchasing Sir George Young: I understand where my hon. Friend video games for Christmas, does the right hon. Gentleman is coming from. The Government are consulting on not think that it is important to hold a debate on this raising the maximum speed limit and reducing the matter? This is not about censorship—it is about protecting speed limit elsewhere. A final decision has not been our children. taken on that proposition, and I shall ensure that his views are fed into the consultative process. Sir George Young: I am grateful to the right hon. Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): I appreciate Gentleman, and I know that this is an issue that he the efforts that you made, Mr Speaker, to allow me to has pursued with vigour for some time. I cannot ask a question earlier. I hope that the leader of my promise a debate next week. Home Office questions, I party, my right hon. Friend the Member for Belfast think, will be held on 12 December, but in the meantime North (Mr Dodds), duly noted the way in which I stood I will draw his concern to the attention of the Home aside for him, and rewards me accordingly. Secretary. 1091 Business of the House1 DECEMBER 2011 Business of the House 1092

Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con): David Wright (Telford) (Lab): Could we have a debate Following the welcome announcement of additional specifically on the national infrastructure plan 2011? As funds for the Highways Agency and the Department for a fellow Shropshire MP, I support the hon. Member for Transport for road infrastructure projects, may we have Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski) in calling a debate on the key projects that Members wish to for a debate about roads and road investment. Just after raise? Personally, I do not always find the Highways the last election, we saw the removal of the M54-M6 Agency as responsive as it should be, and it would be toll road link from capital infrastructure projects. I good to put on the record some of the projects that we should like to debate that in the House, and I am sure are passionate about in our constituencies. that other Shropshire MPs would, too.

Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, Sir George Young: This reminds me of when I was who reminds the House of the supply side measures Secretary of State for Transport many years ago, and that we have taken, bringing forward some important heard all these pleas for extra investment, which I take infrastructure projects to generate employment. He will seriously. I remind the hon. Gentleman that when his know that a large number of schemes were announced party came to power it imposed a moratorium on many by the Chancellor on Tuesday, including some infrastructure of the schemes with which I was planning to go ahead. projects to support growth in the west midlands. I am None the less, he makes a serious point about that sorry if that did not go quite as far as my hon. Friend particular road, and I shall draw his concern to the would wish, but on Tuesday, in the debate on the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State economy, I am sure that he will have an opportunity to for Transport. make his plea, which I hope will be heard by Ministers. Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): Could we have a debate Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): The Leader of the next week on today’s written ministerial statement on House may not have seen the Amnesty report on Saudi the retention of the mobility component in residential Arabia, which was published this morning. Amnesty care? It would give the House an opportunity both to says that thank the Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, “hundreds of people have been arrested for demonstrating, while my hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Maria the government has drafted an anti-terror law that would effectively Miller), for listening to hon. Members on both sides of criminalize dissent as a ‘terrorist crime’ and further strip away the House and to organisations such as Leonard Cheshire rights from those accused of such offences.” Disability, and to welcome the fact that, today, the The hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Government have announced that the mobility component Kawczynski) will lead a delegation from Parliament to of disability living allowance will not be removed from Saudi Arabia at the weekend. Does the Leader of the people living in residential care homes, as an amendment House agree—I have already spoken to the hon. will be tabled to the Welfare Reform Bill on Report in Gentleman—that anyone who represents the House in the Lords. That is welcome news, and the House ought Saudi Arabia should raise those issues, and it is important to note that it is an extremely good example of Ministers that they are raised face-to-face with our opposite numbers? taking the care, time and trouble to listen and respond accordingly. Sir George Young: I feel as if I am a postbox in the dialogue between the right hon. Lady and my hon. Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel In business questions about 12 months ago, that subject Kawczynski). She will know that we had a debate on was frequently raised by Members on both sides of the Monday—indeed, I think she took part—in which some House, who expressed concern about our proposals of those issues were raised, although not the recent under the personal independence payment to remove report by Amnesty International. I am sure that my the mobility component of DLA for people in residential hon. Friend heard her plea, has taken it on board, and accommodation. As he knows, we asked Lord Low to will report back when he returns and let her know how review our proposals. He reported a few weeks ago, and he got on. today, the Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions has announced that we will not go ahead with our Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): original proposals, as my hon. Friend said. We will table Could we have a debate about rail in the north? We have an appropriate amendment to the Welfare Reform Bill a huge requirement for rail investment in the north, in another place to retain that entitlement, which enables especially Yorkshire, and we have had some encouraging people to have the mobility that they very much welcome news recently. It would be timely to hold a debate after if they live in residential or nursing homes. the announcement of the TransPennine Express electrification in the autumn statement on Tuesday. Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): You fortuitously called me, Mr Speaker, just in time to revive Sir George Young: I would welcome such a debate, an old English custom: a pinch and a punch for the first and it may be relevant on Tuesday. I see from the day of the month. Of course, I would never pinch or Chancellor’s announcement on Tuesday that there will punch the Leader of the House, but I might be tempted be two new park-and-ride sites in York; and Leeds rail to do so with the Government unless during the slight growth will be assisted by two new railway stations in time announced today we have a serious debate on the Kirkstall Forge and Apperley Bridge, and a number of fact that university applications are already 15% down, other schemes in the Yorkshire region. I very much which is a serious challenge to our university system. hope that my hon. Friend accepts that this is a priority, The punch is that we should do something more ambitious and that we are making progress with infrastructure in on youth unemployment than what came out of the the area that he represents. autumn statement. 1093 Business of the House1 DECEMBER 2011 Business of the House 1094

Sir George Young: I do not think that the position on describing the principal sacrifice by more than 1 million university applications for next year is quite as grim as people yesterday as “a damp squib” is likely to create a the hon. Gentleman outlines. There was a fall of 0.9% for big society or a divided society? places that had to be applied for by 15 October. The 15% drop to which he refers is in applications for which Sir George Young: Yesterday’s strike had less of an there is still time to apply. We have not reached the final impact than some people had feared. Fewer job centres date, so it is too soon to say that there will be a fall of closed than in June and the number of schools that 15%. The earlier figure to which I referred is much more closed was lower than had been feared. While I am on encouraging. If one looks at the demography, one will my feet, I would like to pay tribute to those who work see that fewer people in that age group are coming for the House for ensuring that it could operate yesterday forward for higher education. and that in the Chamber we could have important statements and a debate on living standards. Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con): Can we have a debate If the hon. Gentleman looks at page 4 of the distribution on women and the prison system? Mahatma Gandhi analysis, he will see that the distribution is progressive said that a society can be judged by how it treats its first, and that those in the top 10% are paying 10 times more its last and its lost. It is my strong belief that women in than those in the bottom 10%. the prison system and the 17,000 children a year who are separated from their mothers as a result of incarceration Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con): I are among the lost. Can we have a debate in Government know from my own experience and that of my constituents time to review that important problem? just how important health visitors are to new mums in the vital first few weeks of a baby’s life, so will the Sir George Young: I welcome my hon. Friend’s interest Leader of the House find time for a debate on health in that important subject. I very much hope that our visitors and other support given to new mums to help new approach to the penal system of payment by results families through that difficult and daunting time? will also benefit women in prison, that new contractors with an interest in finding long-term, secure employment Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. and accommodation for those leaving prison will come She will know that one of the commitments we made forward, and that we will be able to improve our record was to increase the number of health visitors, which we so far and help those women rebuild their lives after are doing by redeploying resources. With regard to leaving prison. social mobility and giving people a good start in life, health visitors and what we are doing with free nursery Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): Can we have care and the pupil premium are all part of a process of a debate on why the Government have decided to increase enabling people from disadvantaged families to break the funding for transport in London while slashing it through and achieve their full potential. across the rest of the country? Are they trying to buy some votes for Boris? Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab): Further to the question asked by my Sir George Young: Certainly not. Our policy on rail hon. Friend the Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman), fares applies throughout the country. We have changed can we have a debate on university applications? Today, the formula from RPI plus 3 to RPI plus 1, which will applications are down 15% on average, compared with benefit travellers in whichever part of the country they this time last year, but in Middlesbrough they are down travel. As far as the capital programme is concerned, if 40%. Does the Leader of the House agree with the chair the hon. Gentleman looks at the announcements my of South Tees Conservative Future when he said that he right hon. Friend the Chancellor made on Tuesday, he “can see the benefits of lower applications”? will see that every region in the country will benefit from infrastructure projects being brought forward. Sir George Young: I am in favour of more applications but, as I said to the hon. Member for Huddersfield, it is Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con): Just too soon to draw the conclusion that I think the hon. the other week I visited the Cheslyn Hay Boys Brigade, Gentleman is drawing—[Interruption.] It makes sense an organisation that has been running for 40 years as a to wait until applications close before drawing conclusions result of the dedication and commitment of its volunteers. on whether they are up or down on last year. As I said, Can we have a debate on how we can encourage more where applications have closed the reduction is 0.9%, so Boys Brigades to play an active role in supporting I think that he is being unduly alarmist. young people’s involvement in civic society? James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con): Sir George Young: I welcome the work of the Boys Can we have a debate on how the Government are Brigade in my hon. Friend’s constituency and agree that working with local authorities to protect some of our it has a role to play in achieving the objective he has just most vulnerable children, especially in areas such as outlined. I cannot promise a debate in the near future, Sandwell, where the Labour-run council was recently although he may be able with some ingenuity to squeeze judged by Ofsted to be failing in its provision to some of the subject in on Tuesday, and there will be the normal the most vulnerable children in the community? pre-Christmas Adjournment debate on the Tuesday we rise, during which he may have an opportunity to develop Sir George Young: I very much hope that the local his case with yet greater eloquence. authority will respond to the Ofsted report and seek to improve its standards. I will draw my hon. Friend’s Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): Can we discuss concern to the attention of my right hon. Friend the whether giving to the few, rather than the many, and Secretary of State for Education. 1095 Business of the House1 DECEMBER 2011 Business of the House 1096

Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): Can we Will my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House have a debate on anti-Semitism, because yesterday an ensure that there are opportunities for hon. Members to hon. Member of this House said in front of a House discuss investment in cross-border issues and projects Committee that Mr Matthew Gould, our distinguished that impact on Montgomeryshire and other cross-border ambassador to Israel, should not serve as such because constituencies? heisJewish?Insuchadebatewecouldmakeitabsolutely clear that we do not have a religious bar in our diplomatic Sir George Young: Those are important issues, and service and that we do not say that Jews cannot serve in my hon. Friend reminds the House that there is indeed a Israel or that Catholics cannot serve in Catholic countries commitment to or the Holy See, so that we may eradicate anti-Semitism “engage with the Welsh Government on improvements to the M4 once and for all from public discourse in our country? in south east Wales.” The Welsh Government will also benefit from the Barnett Sir George Young: I agree with the right hon. Gentleman formula, receiving enhanced funding in line with that and applaud the work that he did in the last Parliament which has been allocated to England, and there is also on the subject. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office an urban broadband fund, which will create 10 super- is an equal opportunity employer. It is inconceivable connected cities, including Cardiff. There was a lot in that it would apply any sort of prejudice of the type to Tuesday’s announcement to help my hon. Friend’s which he refers in deciding who should be our ambassador constituency and others in Wales. in any part of the world. Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab): Given Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): Earlier this that the Leader of the House seems, if I may say so, to week one of my constituents was arrested after a video be struggling somewhat to bring forward items of business, of her ranting at fellow passengers on a Croydon tram may I suggest that he schedules a debate on the important and using the most foul racist language spread on social work of faith organisations in what I presume he would media. It shows that the evil of racism is still with us, describe as the big society? Will he also join me in but it also shows, on a positive note, the power of social congratulating Leicester’s council of faiths, now in its media, as it allowed her to be caught and showed that 25th year, on its successful inter-faith week? the vast majority of Croydon residents do not share her views. Can we have a debate on how the evil of racism in Sir George Young: I applaud what Leicester is doing our society can finally be eradicated? on that particular subject, but let me explain to the hon. Gentleman what happens. The Government schedule Sir George Young: I agree with my hon. Friend. I time for Government legislation, and most of the rest of should not comment on the particular incident, as I the time is allocated to the Backbench Business Committee, understand that charges have been made. It would be so if he wants a debate on faith organisations, which I quite wrong if people could not travel on public transport would heartily support, he needs either to present himself because they are worried about being subjected to the on a Tuesday at 1 o’clock to that Committee and put in sort of abuse to which he refers. I believe that the such a bid, or to apply to you, Mr Speaker, for an penalties we have to deal with hate crimes are serious Adjournment debate. That particular subject would be and hope that they will be used if the offences justify warmly welcomed on both sides of the House. them. Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): On Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) Tuesday in the autumn statement, the Chancellor made (Lab): The Government have stated their desire to the argument that investing in early years education and rebalance the economy and make up for the thousands schools will do more to lift people out of poverty than of public sector jobs that are being lost in regions such just increasing benefits. Figures that I have obtained as mine, yet today we received the dreadful news that from the Library show that of all single-parent families 4,500 jobs at Carillion—a big employer based in Newcastle on child tax credits with five or more children, 23,000 and Gateshead—have been put at risk as a direct result such households are out of work and 4,000 are in work, of the Government’s changes to the feed-in tariffs for so could we have a debate about whether the best way to photovoltaic panels. Can we have an urgent debate on help those households aspire to greater prosperity is how their policies are impacting on private sector jobs through helping parents into work with increased free in regions such as the north-east? child care, rather than increasing the size of their benefit cheque? Sir George Young: I hope that the hon. Lady is able to intervene in the debate on Tuesday. I think I am right in Sir George Young: My hon. Friend is absolutely saying that, right at the end of questions to the Secretary right: the way to help such people is to help them into of State for Energy and Climate Change, the specific work and to remove the barriers that prevent them from case of Carillion was raised and my right hon. Friend going into work, one of which is child care. She will dealt with it. On the overall issue of unemployment, the know that we have expanded free nursery education, OBR forecast shows that employment will be higher first, for all three to four-year-olds and, then, to 20% of and unemployment lower if we compare the end of this two-year-old children from disadvantaged families—a Parliament with the start. figure that was increased on Tuesday to 40%. I very much hope that that will help achieve the social mobility Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): In Tuesday’s to which my hon. Friend refers. autumn statement, we heard good news on regional infrastructure development, and I was encouraged in Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op): particular to see the Chancellor refer to engagement May we have a statement from the Government on the “with the Welsh Government on improvements to the M4.” protections given to whistleblowers? This is a particularly 1097 Business of the House1 DECEMBER 2011 Business of the House 1098

[Jonathan Reynolds] book and we introduce a new planning regime, there will be a system that is more responsive to local needs emotive subject in my constituency, as a result of the than the system we operate at the moment. legacy of the Harold Shipman murders and the crucial role that whistleblowing played in bringing him to justice. Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): Given my A ruling in the Court of Appeal last month, however, to right hon. Friend’s personal commitment to this Chamber the effect that employers cannot be held responsible for being at the centre of the political life of the nation, will incriminatory acts by the fellow employees of another he support the motion, put forward by the Backbench of my constituents, has some people worried that the Business Committee on Monday, that ministerial statements protections that we give to whistleblowers are not vigorous on major policy announcements be made first to this enough. Will the Leader of the House raise that issue Chamber of the House of Commons? with his colleagues in the Ministry of Justice and, perhaps, arrange a meeting between me and one of Sir George Young: I reaffirm my commitment to that those Ministers to discuss it further? part of my hon. Friend’s motion. If he has looked at the Government’s response to the Procedure Committee’s Sir George Young: The hon. Gentleman makes a report, he will see that I have severe reservations about serious point, and there should not be the deterrent, the second part of his motion, which includes a rather which he implies, preventing people from coming forward punitive regime for breaching that aspect of the ministerial and reporting malpractice, injustice or, even, criminal code. I will in due course on Monday, if I catch your activities. Of course I will raise with the Lord Chancellor eye, Mr Speaker, explain why the Government have the concern that the hon. Gentleman has expressed doubts about the wisdom of the second half of the following that decision of the courts, and I will see motion. whether the Government need to take any remedial action. George Hollingbery (Meon Valley) (Con): The Leader of the House will know about the extensive work being Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con): In Norfolk undertaken at the Department for Communities and and East Anglia, a huge number of engineering, energy Local Government on community budgets, including and high-tech businesses are ready to expand and grow, 16 pilot programmes, on families with complex needs in but for many years they have complained about the particular and on cross-departmental spending to solve previous Government’s neglect of our infrastructure those problems. Given the wide range of measures and, particularly, our road infrastructure. I therefore being taken by the Government, particularly with reference welcome this week’s announcement on the A14, building to today’s announcement by the disabilities Minister, on the A11 and the Government’s broadband investment the Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, in East Anglia. Could we have a debate on infrastructure my hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Maria and the economic opportunities resulting from it, Miller), could we please have a debate about the scope particularly so that we can highlight in Norfolk the of that work and its potential consequences? further opportunities that will emerge if we eventually dual the A47? Sir George Young: I welcome such a debate on that initiative and on other schemes such as the early intervention Sir George Young: My hon. Friend makes an important grant, which has done a lot of useful work, trying in bid for yet further investment in infrastructure in his particular to bring together funding streams that were constituency, and I note that he welcomed Tuesday’s previously disparate, and providing a more comprehensive announcement, which will improve the A14, A11 and policy to help such clients. I cannot promise such a parts of the M1—junctions 10 to 13. I will pass on to debate, but in the pre-Christmas Adjournment debate the Secretary of State for Transport the fact that my my hon. Friend could initiate a discussion on that hon. Friend’s appetite has now been whetted, and that important subject. he wants to see yet further investment in his constituency. Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): Thirteen days Mark Lancaster (Milton Keynes North) (Con): ago four Harrow police officers were stabbed while May we have a debate on localism? The Nun Wood trying to apprehend a suspect in neighbouring Kingsbury. wind farm application spans three local authorities, I am pleased that their courage has been commended by each of which looked at it independently and, in the Home Secretary and by the Mayor of London, and line with their local plans, turned it down, only for a that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is writing distant planning inspector to decide that he knew to the four police officers, who I am pleased to say are better than the local plans, thereby allowing the recovering after having suffered those injuries. They are application. Does the Leader of the House understand also about to receive “Get well” cards from local children, why my constituents, my hon. Friend the Member for who are pleased about the work of the police in helping Wellingborough (Mr Bone) and the Under-Secretary of them to celebrate their religion and in going to school, State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my hon. but may we have an urgent debate or a statement on the Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair measures that we can take to help the police and, in Burt), feel so strongly about this issue, which is a real particular, given the protective clothing that is issued to smack in the face for localism? them, to combat knife crime?

Sir George Young: I understand my hon. Friend’s Sir George Young: Many of us will have seen that disappointment at the decision of the planning inspector, particular incident on our television screens. The specific and I know from my time as a Planning Minister that issue of protective clothing is a matter for the police there are now fewer opportunities to appeal. I very service, and I will draw my hon. Friend’s concern to the much hope that, when the Localism Bill hits the statute attention of the appropriate authorities, but more broadly 1099 Business of the House 1 DECEMBER 2011 1100 he has reminded the whole House of the professionalism Point of Order and bravery of our policemen and women. They get up in the morning and do not know what risks they will confront during the day, but they discharge their 12.20 pm responsibilities with a commitment for which we are all Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): On a point of very grateful. order, Mr Speaker. May I take this first opportunity to express my regret that in my excitement at being called Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): May we have a debate early in topical questions, I inadvertently referred to the on ways to tackle the shortage of doctors who are Secretary of State instead of the Minister of State, specialised in accident and emergency care—a major thereby denying the Minister of State the opportunity factor in the temporarily reduced hours of the A and E to explain how his green crusade is not only one of department at my local hospital in Stafford? I place on exhortation but of example? I express my regret to both the record my thanks to the Minister of State, Department of them. of Health, my right hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns), for all his great help in the matter, but it is a Mr Speaker: I am extremely grateful to the hon. long-term problem that needs to be discussed and tackled. Gentleman for that very courteous clarification. Sir George Young: My hon. Friend draws the attention of the House to a serious issue, but the problem in that case is the shortage not of resources, which are there, but of applicants to take up the posts. Discussions are indeed continuing between the Department of Health, the strategic health authority and the local trusts to see whether those barriers can be overcome, but I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his thanks to my right hon. Friend. I will pass on my hon. Friend’s concern and see whether we can accelerate the process.

Mr Speaker: I call Mr Guy Opperman.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): Thank you, Mr Speaker; I shall try to be worth the wait. In Northumberland, hundreds of women have outstanding equal pay claims that some Opposition Members and I are trying to persuade the local authority to resolve. Please may we have a debate in the House on the issue of equal pay for women, past and future, and what the Government are trying to do about it?

Sir George Young: The Government are keen to address the injustice of unequal pay between men and women. In 2009, there was a gap of some 16.4% between men’s and women’s pay. We are working with employers to encourage voluntary non-legislative action to improve transparency on pay and on equality more generally. 1101 1 DECEMBER 2011 1102

Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): I congratulate Backbench Business the hon. Gentleman, who is chairman of the all-party [UN-ALLOTTED DAY] group on the media, on his consistency on this issue. I do not accept that the BBC has an anorexia problem. It Mr Speaker: We have two debates on, respectively, is an obese organisation and, like the rest of the public BBC cuts and debt management services. It may be sector, it needs to go on a diet. I accept that the BBC for the convenience of the House if I explain that does a huge amount of good and is probably the best the Backbench Business Committee anticipated and news organisation in the world. Does he accept that the recommended that there should be a broadly equal decision on where the cuts fall should not discriminate division of time between the two. Starting as we are at against regional and local radio? The BBC is in danger just after 12.20 pm, I would expect the first debate to of being very London-centric, retaining managers in conclude at approximately 3.15 pm. London while laying off hard-working journalists in the regions. BBC (Proposed Cuts) Austin Mitchell: I accept that absolutely. The BBC 12.21 pm should concentrate on efficiency savings, which are still possible in what is, as the hon. Gentleman says, a large Austin Mitchell (Great Grimsby) (Lab): I beg to organisation. That, and not the cuts in regional services move, and local radio stations that are forecast in Delivering That this House calls upon the BBC to reconsider the scale and Quality First, should be the basis of any cuts. timing of its proposed cuts so as better to safeguard BBC local radio, regional television news and programmes, the morale and enthusiasm of its staff, and the quality of BBC programmes Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con) generally, all of which have made the BBC the most respected rose— public service broadcaster in the world. I am very grateful to the Backbench Business Committee Austin Mitchell: I would rather not accept a lot of for providing this wonderful opportunity for Members interventions because many Members want to speak, to say what they think of the cuts proposed by the BBC and I think it is better that they make their points in the in Delivering Quality First. It is important to get those debate rather than interrupt my diatribe. views on the record and for us all to say what we think the BBC should do given its current financial stringencies. The BBC bureaucracy has always been more adept I am an admirer of the BBC. It is the best news and and skilful at interfering with and managing programmes media organisation in the world, and an institution of than at managing the finances of the BBC. As a result, which we in Britain can be proud. It is better to say that it is unable to cost its services and say where the outside the BBC and admiring it than it is inside and efficiency savings should come. That is a problem for working for it, as I once did, when one has to tackle the the BBC, but it is being cured with the help of the layers of bureaucracy above. National Audit Office, which says in its report on the BBC’s efficiency programme—we discussed it in the Public This admirable institution is now threatened by cuts. Accounts Committee—that the BBC is making splendid The licence fee settlement is the worst in the BBC’s progress. I want that progress to continue. I want the history, with the licence fee frozen at £145 for six years. BBC to be able to say, “If we cut to this extent, the On top of that, the BBC is required, from 2014, to overall consequences will be X and the consequences finance the World Service and BBC Monitoring, both for delivery and quality of services will be Y.” of which used to be a Foreign Office responsibility and should, in my view, continue to be so. The BBC World We need that clarity so that the BBC can take a firm Service does a better job for Britain in the world than position on what cuts it can accept instead of its current the Foreign Office and all its pinstriped mandarins put approach, which is the culture that characterises Delivering together, and it should be financed by the Foreign Quality First of can-do submission to whatever the Office. In addition, the BBC loses £150 million a year to Government propose. The Secretary of State shakes his finance superfast broadband, for which, again, the head. Last October, though, the BBC apparently quaked Government should be responsible, and £25 million a before the terrifying spectre of the Secretary of State; year to finance the Secretary of State’s dream of local we have read about what must have been a terrifying TV stations. All this amounts to savings of 16% in the weekend of pressure that he brought to bear. It should annual budget, to which the BBC has added another be immortalised in some kind of drama—“Three Days 4%—in other words, £670 million a year in cuts. That is in October”—showing the terrifying effect that he had on top of the efficiency savings of 3%, or £487 million, on the BBC, which caved in totally. The Secretary of a year that were required in 2007 for the period 2008-13, State put the frighteners on, Sir Michael Lyons resigned, and are, in fact, being exceeded. The BBC is suffering a and the BBC set about a “Yes sir, no sir, three bags full, double dose of anorexia, and that threatens quality, sir” programme of cuts. Indeed, the director general, jobs, innovation and creativity, and hence a groundhog Mark Thompson, told staff in Belfast—this is very diet of endless repeats on television. unlike him— This is a squeeze too far. I have to admit that the BBC “If you’re really that unhappy, if you think that you can’t do has certain faults, which I shall list. It has not helped your best work here then leave—no-one is forcing you to stay.” itself with its erratic financial decisions. For instance, That situation, described as consultation of the BBC there was the hokey cokey about Broadcasting house. staff, was forced on the BBC by the Secretary of State First, it was going to move, then it moved out to White with his bullying tactics last October. It is a skill that City, and now it is going to move back and sell the old amazes me. Now he sits there smiling, all friendly, but television centre at White City. that is not how the BBC saw him last October. 1103 BBC (Proposed Cuts)1 DECEMBER 2011 BBC (Proposed Cuts) 1104

I am not saying, in all this, that the BBC is own worst older people. That is why I am dealing with this issue—I enemy, because the Murdochs are still around. Indeed, am one of the oldest Members around. It is true that the Murdochs are selling programmes; for instance, the cuts will be deeply damaging to the roots of the Elisabeth Murdoch sold “MasterChef” to the BBC. BBC and to us in particular. However, I am saying, loud and clear, that these cuts are The same is true of the quality of the local press. The going to be deeply damaging to the quality of the BBC number of reporters in the local press is declining service. One cannot force a 20% spending reduction steadily and rapidly across the country. It is also tragic over five years, with a loss of 2,000 jobs, 1,000 of which that regional television, which we rely on for the coverage are in the vital news services, without it being a blow to of regional politics, faces cuts of 16% and 100 jobs lost. creativity and to all the creative industries that supply Regional news on television has already suffered from and support the BBC, and without doing deep damage. the cuts at ITV.Competition will be further damaged by That is what will happen over the coming years if the these cuts. BBC, as it is being forced to do, follows the prescriptions laid out by James Murdoch in the MacTaggart lecture BBC Online, which the Murdochs have complained in Edinburgh a few years ago. The cuts programme has about vociferously because it competes with their paid an amazing resemblance to what he said he wanted. services, will be cut by 25%. That is real vandalism, Let us look at the consequences. This debate provides because it is a quality service. I rely on it heavily for an opportunity for all Members to give their views on news and information. the consequences and to say what they think should be The Asian Network, which is the only non-sectarian, done. I would like to first consider local radio. There is a non-political service for news, music and discussion for strong feeling among Members that the cuts to local all Asian communities, will lose 47 people, have a budget radio go too far and will be too damaging. That point cut of 46% and face the closure of its Leicester newsroom. emerged in the Westminster Hall debate. That will be a bitter blow to ethnic communities and to the ethnic mix among BBC staff. Daniel Kawczynski: On the issue of local radio stations, Those are the major objections that I have to the cuts. Radio Shropshire is not even allowed to procure its own I have no doubt that other Members will put forward window cleaners. That is done centrally from London. other objections. The BBC must consider the objections The BBC in London sends window cleaners from that come from us and from the rest of society. There Lancashire to clean the windows in Shropshire. That is may be other cuts to come. That is not clear because highly unacceptable and must be changed. There must negotiations are still going on over pension conditions. be better procurement and value for money at the BBC.

Austin Mitchell: I hope that the cleaners from Lancashire Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): Before do not arrive with little ukuleles in their hands. That my hon. Friend leaves the issue of regional television, would be an example of excessive expenditure at the does he think that it is consistent with the BBC charter BBC. However, such examples do not make the case for for the BBC to locate most of its production at Salford, the cuts, because the cuts will be much more deep-seated. Bristol and Cardiff, and to leave areas such as Birmingham, I accept that there are anomalies and problems. the west midlands and his part of the world out of the loop? The cuts will press heavily on local radio, which we all respect. It provides our roots in society and in politics. I am particularly proud of Radio Humberside. It does Austin Mitchell: No, I do not. It is true that services not do enough on politics, but that is probably because are being unacceptably concentrated in those places. We it would lose its audience if it did more on politics. It want better services and better staffing in Yorkshire and would gain me, but it would lose its audience. It is a the Humber, which—dare I say it—are a nation in particularly good station. It will lose 8.5 members of themselves and deserve to be treated as a nation. The staff as a result of these decisions. cuts are a serious setback to recruitment and to the transfer of jobs out of London, which cannot be satisfied In BBC local radio overall, the output will be cut by just by the creation of the monster of a centre in 22%, the budgets will be cut by 19%—far in excess of all Manchester. the other cuts—and 280 jobs will be lost, which is an average of seven per station. That will be a crippling The newsrooms of the BBC and the BBC World blow. Such harsh cuts press particularly hard on small Service are going to be merged. There are overlaps organisations that have high fixed costs. there, which will lead to further redundancies. We are told that Radio 4 has been protected from cuts, but its Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): I am grateful to producers have been required to reapply for their jobs. my hon. Friend, who is making a magnificent speech. The talk about window cleaners trivialises the problem. Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): I am pleased BBC Radio York, which got the title of best original that my hon. Friend has raised the issue of Radio 4, journalism of the year this year, will lose eight journalists which, as he said, is being protected. On Merseyside, as a result of the cuts. Surely the licence fee should pay more than twice the number of people who listen to for the sort of broadcast services that commercial stations Radio 4 listen to BBC Radio Merseyside, yet Radio will not provide. Local radio is at the core of that. Merseyside faces a cut of 20% and will lose a third of its staff. Overwhelmingly, the people who listen to it are Austin Mitchell: I agree with my hon. Friend. I am elderly, disabled or poor. Those people do not have the sure that that station’s ratings will go up as his appearances option of finding other means of entertainment. Does multiply. It is true that local radio provides a better he agree that it would make sense to protect local radio service for older people and that it is more listened to by rather than Radio 4? 1105 BBC (Proposed Cuts)1 DECEMBER 2011 BBC (Proposed Cuts) 1106

Austin Mitchell: I agree absolutely. Radio 4 tends to I say to my fellow MPs who will speak after me, let us be Radio South-East, or indeed Radio Westminster at please avoid the old carping and criticism of the BBC. times, given its concentration on politics. Listeners in We all grumble at the BBC—it is there to be grumbled the regions deserve the same degree of protection. at, like the weather. However, it is also there to be I was arguing that Radio 4, which is supposed to be admired. It is the best producer of quality programmes protected, is not being protected because its producers and quality news in the world, and an institution that are all being asked to reapply for their jobs. Audio & we should be proud of, not treating in this horrendous Music, which produces programmes such as “Desert fashion of cuts, sacrifice and dumbing down. Island Discs”, for which my invitation to appear is still to arrive—I hope that it arrives before rigor mortis sets Several hon. Members rose— in totally—has been cut by 18%, with a loss of 140 jobs. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. To conclude, my message to the BBC is simple and May I explain to Members that, as Mr Speaker mentioned, threefold. To the BBC Trust, I say please go easier and we plan to end the debate at 3.15 pm and start the slower with the cuts, particularly those to local services. wind-ups at 2.45 pm? There are 12 Members who have To the BBC management, I say reconsider the proposals indicated that they wish to speak, and I can be a little in Delivering Quality First carefully, because management more generous on the time limit if Members are disciplined. in the regions are in revolt. We have had discussions If those speaking at the beginning take more than with the regional management in Yorkshire and 10 minutes including interventions, it will mean that Humberside. Although they are preparing the cuts, they those who come later get less time. With that in mind, clearly want MPs to come forward against those cuts. and knowing the self-discipline that Members will want They are inciting us against their own management. to apply, I will set the time limit on Back-Bench speeches at 10 minutes. Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) (Lab): I hope that I will not pre-empt my hon. Friend’s third message to the BBC. The concern has been raised 12.43 pm with me that the BBC does not seem to be listening to Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): It is a pleasure the evidence of the number of listeners and viewers at a to follow the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Austin local level. It also proposes to create super-regions for Mitchell). Clearly Radio Humberside is going to get a television programming, in particular for “Inside Out”, few plugs this afternoon. where it believes that audiences will tolerate it. However, It is tempting on such an occasion to attack and there is no evidence of that. compliment the BBC in equal measure. I am very happy to say that I would pay my licence fee for Radio 4, and if Austin Mitchell: I agree absolutely. The people listen I happened to get the Radio 5 Live football commentaries, to the BBC, but is the BBC listening to the people in this “Newsnight” and “Match of the Day” thrown in I instance? I ask BBC management, who have proposed a would be a satisfied customer. In reality, however, we diet of sacrifices and cuts for everybody else in the BBC, are here this afternoon to convey to the BBC, through what they can bring to the party. Salaries have become the Secretary of State, the concerns of our constituents. inflated in the BBC—there are 1,065 people earning more than £70,000 a year. Good heavens, that is as It is clear that our constituents greatly value local much as MPs get—what a scandal! We are grossly radio. In the case of mine, that means Radio Humberside. overpaid, of course, everybody says so. There are 45 people Unless someone is local to the area, it is difficult for at the BBC with salaries of more than £190,000 a year, them to appreciate the antipathy to the word “Humberside”. and the director-general’s package is also pretty inflated, Indeed, one of my illustrious predecessors, Michael it seems to me. Brown, pledged to expunge it from the English language. Alas, it lives on, although it is now sometimes referred If BBC management agreed to cut the director-general’s to as “the Humber”. However, Radio Humberside has package to £142,000 and lower the other top salaries in gone a considerable way towards overcoming the in-built ratio with that, they could save and bring to the feast suspicion of anything containing the word “Humberside”. £27 million. That would be helpful when they are imposing Nowadays, we are at least referred to as “northern cuts on other people. We are all in it together, and they Lincolnshire”. are in it as much as the BBC staff. They should recognise that fact by making sacrifices. That is my third message Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): Does the hon. Gentleman to the BBC. agree that despite the issue of the word “Humberside”, My final message is to the Government. I say to there is a lot of affection for Radio Humberside among them that what happens is their responsibility, and people in Scunthorpe, Grimsby and on the south bank substantially that of the Secretary of State. If and of the Humber, particularly for its support for and when—I say “when” because I think it is a case of reporting on local people’s activities, whether they be “when”—it becomes clear that the cuts are destroying football, arts or other things? quality and ending intelligent debate and discussion of politics, the Government should stand ready to provide Martin Vickers: I certainly agree with the hon. a supplementary licence fee. All the poll evidence indicates Gentleman, and the word “affection” appears somewhere that people are prepared to pay more for their licence in my notes in relation to Radio Humberside. I suspect, fee. One recent poll showed that they were prepared to though, that most of my constituents on the south bank pay 7p more a day. That would obviate the need for the of the Humber are more interested in what goes on in cuts altogether. The Government should bear that in Louth and Lincoln than in Cottingham and Kirk Ella. I mind. They should certainly reconsider imposing the therefore remain convinced that some savings could be burden of the BBC World Service on the BBC itself. It made through joint working with Radio Lincolnshire. should properly be financed by the Foreign Office. Residents in places such as Keelby and Caistor, which 1107 BBC (Proposed Cuts)1 DECEMBER 2011 BBC (Proposed Cuts) 1108 are really suburbs of Grimsby and Cleethorpes, feel To go back to the coverage of local politics, it is much more part of what we might call the Humberside completely unrealistic to expect local council meetings community than of the more rural Lincolnshire community. to be covered individually by reporters. Indeed, in some I acknowledge that the success of Radio Humberside is areas, there are far too many local councils to be covered partly because people grow fond of—even affectionate by local stations, which is another argument in favour towards—some of the presenters, such as Peter Levy of single-tier local government—that is an argument for with his lunchtime phone-in. another day. I support the Government’s approach to the licence Daniel Kawczynski: Does my hon. Friend agree fee. Any organisation as large as the BBC can and that local presenters are very much admired and should make savings. The licence fee is a significant revered by the local community and hold local politicians burden— to account in debates? May I put in a plug for Eric Smith, my favourite presenter on Radio Shropshire, Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP) rose— who is also appearing in “Aladdin” at Shrewsbury’s Theatre Severn, playing the emperor of China? I very much hope that people will go and see him over the Martin Vickers: I think I am running out of time, so Christmas holidays. if the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I will carry on. The licence fee is a significant burden to those on low Martin Vickers: I hope that plug serves my hon. and fixed incomes. I acknowledge that although various Friend well in his future dealings with his local radio schemes help some categories of my constituents, the station, just as I hope that Peter Levy will view my next licence fee falls disproportionately on the elderly and appearance on his programme favourably after my mention the housebound, who quite naturally rely to a much of him. greater extent on their radios for company and entertainment. With the decline of many local newspapers, although thankfully not the Grimsby Telegraph, local news on The licence fee must be contained. I do not subscribe BBC stations will become more important, although it to the more radical proposals for the BBC that are is easy for them to overdo the contribution that they supported by some of my hon. Friends—I would regard make to local politics. I can speak only for the Humberside myself as a critical friend of the BBC. As the hon. and Lincolnshire area, but many years ago there was a Member for Great Grimsby pointed out, in many ways, Radio Humberside reporter at local council meetings as the BBC sets a benchmark for quality and is an institution a matter of course. Indeed, when I was first elected to of which we should be justly proud, but it must recognise Great Grimsby borough council in 1980, there was a that it is funded by what is in effect a compulsory tax, reporter who not only attended meetings of the full and the anger the general public feel about some of the council but had the unpleasant task of even being at salaries and fees paid to executives and presenters. Why every committee meeting. I often used to sympathise do more than 100 members of staff earn more than the with him as he sat through far more meetings than even Prime Minister? I remain unconvinced of the merits of the councillors were forced to. that situation, although I am sure they are capable individuals. Hugh Bayley: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right The director-general carries a heavy responsibility, to stress the local links that local radio has with the but he and his colleagues must recognise that my community and the identification of listeners with their constituents, many of whom do not earn as much in local radio station. During the catastrophic floods in their working lives as his annual salary, contribute to York 11 years ago, I was tasked by the police silver that. My constituents remain amazed that £15,000 per command one Friday night, when we ran out of sandbags, episode of “Question Time” represents a reduction in with trying to find some people to come in overnight the presenter’s salary—£15,000 is not far short of the and sew additional ones. I put out public appeals on average wage for my constituents. I am a passionate BBC Radio York, Radio Humberside and Radio supporter of the free market and recognise that the Lincolnshire. Two hours later, a factory manager in BBC operates in a competitive environment, but it Lincolnshire said that he had been called up by workers must, like all publicly funded organisations, recognise who had gone to the factory having heard the programme, the circumstances in which the country finds itself. so that they could open it up and sew. Within 24 hours The motion asks for local radio and regional TV there were 1 million sandbags. Is there not a risk that programmes to be safeguarded, but not completely such local community service by radio— insulated from savings, which to a limited extent can always be found. I put “local” ahead of “regional”. I Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. find the suggestion of a “Radio England” completely We have now had an advert and an intervention that unacceptable. Regional radio used to exist. I recall that is really a speech. Interventions are supposed to be brief when I bought my first Marconiphone transistor radio, and relevant to the point that the speaker who has I could tune into Midlands, North, London and the like the floor is making. I would be grateful if we could stick as well as exotic stations such as Hilversum, Athlone to that. and Luxembourg. However, regional radio never really had any buy-in from its audience—people did not tune Martin Vickers: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. into 434 medium wave for the northern news; they I entirely agree with the point the hon. Gentleman tuned in because that was the best reception in the area. makes on floods and the like. We have had our share of I enjoy some programmes on BBC 4 television, but I floods in the Cleethorpes area—most recently four years remain unconvinced that its new programming could ago. Local radio comes into its own on such occasions. not or should not be aired on BBC 2—indeed, it would 1109 BBC (Proposed Cuts)1 DECEMBER 2011 BBC (Proposed Cuts) 1110

[Martin Vickers] tremendous musical creativity; and in both television and radio, exploring the boundaries of our world and have been before the latter station was dumbed down. helping us to make sense of it is one of the cornerstones That is not a throwaway remark. I clambered into my of what the BBC does. loft last weekend and dug out some editions of the What concerns me most as a west midlands MP is the Radio Times from the 1960s and ’70s—do not ask me proposed decimation of BBC West Midlands, which why I had them. When I flicked through those pages, I has a unique 90-year history of both factual and drama appreciated how much rubbish is broadcast these days programme making. It is home to some of the most in comparison with years gone by. I am told that BBC 4 excellent programmes, such as “Countryfile”, “Coast” is cheap television. I can understand that—it does not and “Gardeners’ World”. A long time ago, I made a cost a great deal to re-broadcast a 1976 episode of “Top programme that came from Pebble Mill—“Network of the Pops”. I would prefer one from 1966, but that yet East”—and I remember the expertise of the staff. They again shows my age. edited a piece on the Chelsea flower show at 7.50 pm for Radio Humberside and local radio generally is greatly transmission at 8.00 pm. One can find such professionalism supported by our constituents up and down the country. and dedication to the job across the whole of the BBC. It is that above all else that the BBC should concentrate As many hon. Members from the west midlands will on safeguarding as it looks for savings in other areas. I know, when we go on the “Politics Show”, a remarkable hope all hon. Members support the motion. woman—is there not always a remarkable woman?—does our make-up, acts as floor manager and provides the 12.54 pm hospitality at the end of the programme. I am not sure what else she can include in her job. Perhaps the BBC Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): I begin by thanking will expect her to be a camera operator as well. That is my hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby (Austin the nature of her commitment and the commitment of Mitchell) for introducing this timely debate. It is always the other people who work there. a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers). The £15 million that is spent on the region is worth £28 million to the local economy, not to mention that The motion says it all. I call on the BBC to reconsider Birmingham is the country’s second city and the some of its short-term responses to the problem of geographical heart of England. That as well as skilled relieving pressure on its budget, and I hope to set out jobs such as journalists, researchers, engineers and producers why. So many times in the Chamber recently I have had could be lost. The pitch is that 150 skilled jobs in the to express my concern about our national institutions, area could be lost. which are the envy of the world. The BBC is a well loved service, and one that is respected for factual Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con): If output, drama and music. It is now leading the debate the west midlands is the heart of England, Kent is the on science and bringing its beauty and wonder to the garden of England. Is the hon. Lady aware that Radio masses. Kent, which provides many of my constituents with an I shall focus on the national position, what is happening excellent service, has longer listening hours throughout locally in the west midlands and what will happen in the week than any other BBC radio station? That is why future. As my hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby it is vital to retain top-quality programmes and stations said, for just £12 a month, the nation can enjoy new for our constituents. drama, science and current affairs programmes. In my view, the BBC is hamstrung, because although the Valerie Vaz: The hon. Lady serves her constituents licence fee settlement is guaranteed until 2017, the well by making such an important point and I hope that licence fee is frozen. As he said, the BBC will also have the BBC is listening to her. It is not only the skilled jobs new funding responsibilities for, among other things, that will go; the local news dimension and the cutting the World Service and S4C, and must make savings of edge digital production will be lost. Once lost, such 20%. skills will never be regained. The whole point of a public broadcaster is that it The west midlands is one of the most diverse areas. need not have an eye to the shareholder, so it can When BBC operations moved from Pebble Mill to the commission new and innovative programmes. The BBC Mailbox, Mark Thompson said that great cities such as is accountable to viewers, who will always tell it what Birmingham were central to his vision of the BBC. they like and do not like, but people must have space None the less, it is the future on which I wish to focus. and time to hone their craft. Creativity cannot be In the midlands, there is a different a pool of talent from measured as a unit of expenditure. that in London. Broadcasting there offers opportunities for a first step in the media. Outreach work is carried out Steve McCabe: Is it fair that viewers in the west across the midlands and includes projects such as BBC midlands should have to pay the same licence fee as News School Report, the International School and the viewers in Cardiff, Bristol or Salford when the former university of Birmingham sports partnership in which, get such a limited return for their investment compared hopefully, it will be recognised that women can play with the latter? sport and that there is a gender balance to be achieved.

Valerie Vaz: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention, Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): Does my hon. but I shall come to what is happening to BBC West Friend share my concern that these cuts are having an Midlands. effect on regional sports? For example, there are fears A drama can have a greater impact and provide that the cuts, particularly those in London, will take greater understanding of a topic; one has only to watch away 95% of the coverage of rugby league, which is “Later…with Jools Holland” to see this country’s hugely popular in my constituency. 1111 BBC (Proposed Cuts)1 DECEMBER 2011 BBC (Proposed Cuts) 1112

Valerie Vaz: My hon. Friend makes an important Bill Esterson: The right hon. Gentleman makes a point, and I absolutely agree with her. I should also like good point about television. The same is true of radio, to flag up my concern that after the move to Bristol, and local radio in particular. BBC Radio Merseyside S4C may be made to broadcast from there to save costs and other regional radio programmes achieve high listening rather than from Wales. figures among the over-65s. The loss of such a service will be a blow to those people. Is it not true that the core Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): I am startled of the BBC’s business is its regional news service and it by the claim that S4C could be broadcast from Bristol. should rethink its decision? Is the hon. Lady telling me that that is official Labour party policy? Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. I have already said that interventions need to be brief. Valerie Vaz: Oh dear. I thought that the hon. Gentleman Brief means short and not a speech. was listening. I was voicing not official party policy, but my concerns. I tend to look at the future and worry about things. The hon. Gentleman should be aware that Mr Foster: Let me just say to the hon. Gentleman such a move is a possibility. It is not one with which I that I will discuss local radio a little later in my speech. agree. People have actually starved to secure the channel The BBC provides a significant training function for S4C, and it should remain in Wales, which is the most many parts of broadcasting—not just for the BBC. One wonderful country. Let me press on now. of the things that has not been mentioned is the vital role that local radio provides as the training ground for Each generation has seen the BBC achieving new many of the people who go on to be national news successes. Programmes such as “Doctor Who” have presenters or who get involved in national news production. been reworked and old legends such as “Merlin” have The intangibles of the BBC are many and varied. It is, been broadcast. Savings can be found by curbing the for example, one of the best technological innovators. excessive salaries of the so-called stars. We have seen that with the fantastic success of the Steve McCabe: Jeremy Clarkson. iPlayer, which, I think, will be replicated when we have the launch of YouView some time next year. Valerie Vaz: Yes, Jeremy Clarkson. As I mentioned The BBC also makes a huge contribution to the earlier, all this output costs £12 a month. If we match creative industries in this country. We are well aware not some of the savings with a slight increase in the licence only of its technological and training achievements but fee—7p a day would mean a £2 increase a month—which of the way in which it provides support for fantastic my hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby orchestras and for the Proms. It will make a huge mentioned, we could stop all these cuts. We cannot have contribution to the 2012 Cultural Olympiad. The BBC, a situation in which we buy in other people’s words and in the many ways in which it operates, is critical to this pictures rather than have news reporting on the ground. country. We have already seen a number of cuts to its I have written about this matter to Mark Thompson service. Under the previous Government, huge cuts and the chairman, Chris Patten. The reply, which I were required. Indeed, it has already had to find savings received today, does not reassure me that any of these of about £1 billion since 1998. That has included reductions cuts are necessary. I urge the BBC to think again. in senior management and in salaries and that could go Operating a camera, directing and editing are different still further. skills. Mistakes are made when there is no time for I was delighted that the hon. Member for Great research and facts are not checked. The BBC is not a Grimsby referred to the crucial role that the National throwaway institution, but an institution that nurtures Audit Office is now playing in scrutinising the accounts new talent while celebrating the wisdom of the long-standing of the BBC. I was very pleased indeed when that role people who work there. The world is getting more was introduced by the coalition Government. complex; the BBC needs to expand and not contract. The message from this House must be that it has to Before I come on to the cuts, I want to address one think again. other matter that worries me—and this is a criticism of the Government. At a time when the BBC has to deal 1.3 pm with these significant problems, some of its attention will be diverted by the Leveson inquiry. It was wrong for Mr Don Foster (Bath) (LD): I congratulate the Backbench the remit of that inquiry to be widened to include Business Committee on selecting such an important broadcasting when there are so many other important subject for debate and the hon. Member for Great issues that need to be addressed. Grimsby (Austin Mitchell) on introducing the debate with his usual panache. Bearing in mind his current It is absolutely right that the BBC cannot be immune attire, I was slightly taken aback by his attack on from the cuts that are facing the public sector at the pinstriped mandarins. Other than that, I agree with a current time. Lord Patten, the new chairman of the great deal of what he said. BBC Trust, was right to say that it should be possible to run an outstanding broadcaster on £3.5 billion a year. The motion says that the BBC is While the hon. Member for Great Grimsby was castigating “the most respected public service broadcaster in the world.” the Secretary of State earlier on in his contribution, he From the contributions that we have heard already, it is should have been aware that the size of the cuts imposed clear that it is the best public service broadcaster in the on the BBC could have been considerably higher had world. It is the best because of the high quality of its the Chancellor required the BBC to fund the free licence output on television, radio and online. Its news is both fee for the over-75s. Some credit must go to the Secretary impartial and highly trusted, which is reflected in the of State for his role in ensuring that the cuts were not as fact that it produces only 27% of television news, yet great as they could have been. Nevertheless, there are secures 72% of all news viewing. serious cuts facing the organisation and additional 1113 BBC (Proposed Cuts)1 DECEMBER 2011 BBC (Proposed Cuts) 1114

[Mr Foster] asked were about local radio and expressed concern about the cuts. I want to make it clear that I join all responsibilities that it must take on. It is not surprising, Members who urge the BBC to think again about the therefore, that the director-general has said that the cuts. They are seriously damaging. As a proportion of BBC simply cannot take on further responsibilities if radio stations’ budgets, the cuts might seem small but, there are further cuts coming down the track. as the hon. Member for Great Grimsby said, given that a high percentage of their budgets will go on fixed costs, Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): The work the impact on many local radio stations’cash budgets—used that the BBC has done over 30 or 40 years of violence in on programmes and to pay presenters—will be significant Northern Ireland is a credit to public broadcasting, but and do great damage. would the BBC not do itself more good if it were more I have already mentioned the training issue. I simply transparent and, for instance, revealed exactly how do not understand why something as important to so much each presenter and employee gets? The public many of our constituents as local radio is under attack have a right to know. like this. It is worth remembering that about 20% of people listen only to local radio. It is a lifeline for such Mr Foster: I hope that the right hon. Gentleman is people, particularly older people and the disabled. I aware that the BBC has already made great strides in hope that the BBC will reconsider that matter, just as I making public that information, but with some individuals hope that it will look again at regional television. After there will be issues of commercial confidentiality and all, regional television provides journalists with particular contractual relations. It is difficult but the BBC has insights into, and an understanding of, what is happening made progress, and I hope that if we enable the National in a locality that cannot be reflected by people stuck in Audit Office to consider these issues, more information Salford, Cardiff, Bristol or wherever. will be forthcoming. I hope very much that the BBC will consider one As I said, these are deeply challenging issues, and other issue that has not been raised so far today but they include the increased responsibilities of the BBC. which has been raised by members of the all-party Unlike the hon. Member for Great Grimsby, I am group: the BBC’s coverage of European issues. It is pleased that the World Service will come within the concerning, for instance, that the BBC has not yet wider remit of the operation of the BBC. That will be to implemented the 2005 Wilson report, which recommended the benefit of the excellent World Service, which reaches additional training to journalists about the operation of 165 million people around the globe every week. I the European Union. Bearing in mind how important recently visited the Arabic and Persian services, which the EU is to this country, it is worrying that the only are doing fantastic work and whose contribution during major programme covering European issues, “The Record the Arab spring has been immeasurable. We should be Europe”, might be axed. praising their work. However, bringing the World Service There is one area where the Government could quickly and the BBC together will bring real benefits. I am do something to assist the BBC. I find this matter pleased that Members on both sides of the House bizarre. In the vast majority of the world, if someone raised concerns about the level of cuts to the World were running a satellite or cable programme, they would Service—we should all be concerned about that—but I be begging to have on their platform the programmes am pleased that additional funding has been found, and that the BBC produces. They would be paying it to I hope that we can find more to ensure that it can make that contribution. The Government need urgently continue its excellent work. to address what are called in the jargon “retransmission I am pleased that, with the management arrangements fees”. If Virgin does not charge, other than for the costs for taking on some of the responsibility for S4C having of the operation, to have BBC programmes as part of been sorted out, the channel now has a secure future, its popular package, I must question whether it is now which means that it can continue to provide an excellent appropriate for Sky to receive so much money from the service through its Welsh-language service not only to BBC. I urge the Government to look at that. the people of Wales but to the growing diaspora of I end where I began. Notwithstanding the forthcoming Welsh people throughout the rest of the country. cuts, I am confident that the BBC, despite all the I am perfectly sanguine about the need for the BBC changes taking place, will continue to be not only, as the to make a contribution towards the roll-out of high-speed motion states, the most respected public service broadcaster broadband. After all, it is part of the BBC’s remit that it in the world but the best public service broadcaster in delivers services and helps to develop different platforms. the world. It is right, therefore, that it is involved in high-speed broadband roll-out, although I would say to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State—I have said this to 1.16 pm him several times—that one contribution that the BBC Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): In joining could make but is not allowed to make as much as it colleagues to make the case for local radio, I want to would like is on demand management to help people to focus on three points. First, the cuts being made to local understand the benefits of high-speed broadband and radio are unfair and disproportionate. Secondly, they to provide training activities. will have not only an immediate impact on service but a I am lucky enough to be the chairman of the all-party long-term effect that could threaten the very future of group on the BBC, and recently we held a meeting at local radio. Thirdly, echoing a comment by the hon. which Lord Patten and the director-general, Mark Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard), these decisions Thompson, came before the group to answer questions are being made by a London-based management who about its Delivering Quality First plan. It will not appear not to understand the nature of their service or surprise Members that more than 50% of questions listeners outside the capital. 1115 BBC (Proposed Cuts)1 DECEMBER 2011 BBC (Proposed Cuts) 1116

I want to illustrate these points with reference to Reduced budgets will lead to falling listener numbers, Radio Sheffield, which is a successful station that broadcasts which would challenge local radio’s legitimacy further from the heart of my constituency and throughout and leave the London-based management in no doubt south Yorkshire and which is listened to by 244,000 in future. Smaller audiences for local radio would lead people every week. That equates to a remarkable to further cuts, reducing listeners again. That spiral of 19% penetration of its potential market. On average, decline will ultimately bring into question the future of those people listen to Radio Sheffield for eight hours local radio. That must be a worry for us all, because every week. I have to declare an interest as a regular BBC local radio is unique. No one else, in either the listener of Radio Sheffield too. I shall declare another BBC or the commercial sector, has a similar offer. As interest: I also listen regularly to Radio 4. I recognise, other Members have said, research suggests that many however, that Radio 4 has a significantly smaller audience people—particularly older people—tune in to local radio across the country than the 7.5 million people who for a sense of connection with their communities. A listen to local radio. MORI study for Ofcom indicates that older people are more likely to listen to the radio at least five days a Tracey Crouch: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that week, with 87% of those over 55 doing so. That is one reason people are so loyal to their local radio certainly true of Radio Sheffield, whose audience’s average stations is the variety they provide: there is the heavy age is 54. Those people listen to it because it is local: it is speech content in the morning, followed by a variety of of the community and reflects that community identity. music, plugs for local events and so on in the lunch-time and afternoon shows, followed by the interesting speech Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): Does the content mix in the drive-time shows. That variety means hon. Gentleman think that one of the challenges is loyal listeners. that, looking at these issues from London, the Yorkshire dales, which I represent, and Sheffield, which he represents, Paul Blomfield: I agree with the hon. Lady about the may seem close, when in fact the communities there are variety and local roots of those different strands of the quite different and distinct? We need to point that out local radio offer. to people living in White City. It is important not only to consider the aggregate total of people who listen to local radio but to take note Paul Blomfield: I absolutely agree with the hon. that one third—2.5 million people—of those people do Gentleman’s point about regional identity; in fact, I was not listen to any other BBC station and that, as the coming to that. My point about the spiral of decline is right hon. Member for Bath (Mr Foster) pointed out, that, if evening programmes became national—“Radio almost one fifth listen to no other radio station at all. England”—they would, by any definition, cease to be Yet while the Radio 4 budget is being protected, local local, and the reason for listening to them would disappear. radio across Yorkshire is facing cuts of about 18%. If afternoon programming becomes regional, the same What does that mean for Radio Sheffield? The current will happen. In Sheffield, we are rightly proud of being 16 hours a day of local content will be almost halved, to part of Yorkshire, which is an important part of our nine hours. From broadcasting local content every weekday identity. However, although Yorkshire is our region, it is from 5 am to 10 pm, we will have two local slots, one in not our community. Yet that point—precisely the point the morning and one in the early evening. The afternoon that the hon. Gentleman makes—is not understood by will be filled with regional programming—joint shows the BBC management in London. with Radio York and Radio Leeds—and from 7 pm, Let me illustrate that by reference to the plans for evening local radio will effectively become, as was pointed shared sports coverage. Sport is very popular with our earlier, “Radio England”, which is complete nonsense Radio Sheffield audience, and I have no doubt that the when it comes to local radio. The loss of medium wave same is true around the country. Nobody else provides will bring an end to language programmes for ethnic that service, and on a Saturday afternoon, the station is minority communities, which are highly valued and the most popular station on the dial in south Yorkshire. attract a significant local listenership. We are also facing One in four radio listeners are tuned in to Radio Sheffield. shared sports commentary, an issue to which I want to However, under the BBC plans, when Sheffield United return in a moment. play at Elland Road—as we will next year when we are promoted: I have to declare another interest at this Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): point—the commentary will be provided by Radio Leeds. Let me say how much I support the case that my hon. I recently pointed out to the director-general of the Friend is making for local content from Radio Sheffield, BBC—at the meeting to which the right hon. Member a case that I would also make for Radio Newcastle. for Bath referred—that Sheffield United fans would Does he think that the cuts to local radio are consistent rather switch off than listen to a Leeds-based commentary. with the BBC’s duty to reflect and strengthen cultural He recognised that that was a problem and said that identities at the local and regional levels? the BBC needed to provide more neutral football commentary—completely missing the point. As a Sheffield Paul Blomfield: My hon. Friend makes an important United fan, I listen to Radio Sheffield’s away commentary point, because I think the cuts conflict with that duty. precisely because it is not neutral—because it is partisan The BBC has done a lot of great work over recent years and because Keith Edwards knows the club inside out in seeking to meet that aspiration and won a popular and cares about it, just as I do. following from our minority communities in Sheffield. That is now at risk as a result of these cuts. Martin Vickers: As a blades supporter, I can understand My concern is not only about the immediate impact, what the hon. Gentleman is saying. Does he agree, but that the transformation of the local radio offer—a however, that it is even more important for teams in the significant change—will lead to a spiral of decline. lower leagues—such as Grimsby Town, which is temporarily 1117 BBC (Proposed Cuts)1 DECEMBER 2011 BBC (Proposed Cuts) 1118

[Martin Vickers] success stories when it comes to the world’s minority languages, and we have to recognise the role the BBC residing in the Blue Square premier league—and other has played in that. local sports clubs to be covered by local radio? Without The BBC, through its coverage of the National Assembly it, our 7-nil victory on Tuesday evening would not have for Wales, is also playing a huge part in the development been widely reported. of the political identity of Wales. I am unashamedly Welsh through and through, and I have been incredibly Paul Blomfield: That is an incredibly important point. proud of the work the BBC has done to make Wales an I worry that, when the away coverage comes from identifiable nation since devolution became a reality in London, as under the BBC’s proposal, a whole range of 1999. I am also proud of the work it is continuing to do, clubs will fail to get any commentary. and I do not want to see it stop. This issue goes beyond football. Local radio works The truth is, however, that the BBC had to reduce its because it is partisan, because it is rooted in communities costs. The reduction in the licence fee—what we call and because it identifies with people, speaking to them BBC cuts—is an entirely reasonable expectation. The and for them. Take that localness away and we will take Government obviously have an influence on the licence the listeners away. As I mentioned earlier, BBC local fee in its discussion with the BBC, and vulnerable people radio in England has an estimated 7.5 million listeners, must be protected. The BBC licence fee is a regressive an increase of around 500,000 on last year and 700,000 tax, which impacts more on the poorer in society than more than the previous year. Cutting local radio in this on the wealthy. At a time when the whole nation faces way, when listener numbers are going up, makes absolutely difficult economic and financial circumstances—we cannot no sense. If the current consultation launched by the be sure how long they will last—it would be completely BBC is to have any validity, I trust that it will listen to wrong for the BBC not to make a contribution through the huge number of voices raised in support of local the licence fee. I am fully supportive of the reduction in radio and think again. the level of the licence fee. I want to make three points; the first is about S4C. One of the BBC cuts is for S4C funding to the tune of a 1.27 pm little less than £80 million a year. This is the first chance I have had to speak on this since serving on the Committee Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): Thank you considering the Public Bodies Bill, which was effectively for inviting me to speak, Madam Deputy Speaker, in taken over by the issue for a significant part of its work. this debate on a subject that is hugely important for the It helped all of us to understand the impact of the BBC people of Wales—possibly temporarily, before the whole in Wales. I received 1,100 e-mails about the proposed thing is moved to Bristol. changes in the Public Bodies Bill, which people feared I love the BBC. I love it as one might love a cantankerous would give the BBC excessive influence over S4C. I auntie or some other relation. I enjoy complaining sought assurances from the Minister and was very about the BBC, in much the same way as the hon. encouraged by those I received. What we found in the Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell), who end is that the result has been a terrific score. I thus introduced this debate, might enjoy complaining about wanted in this Chamber to say a huge thank you to the weather. I enjoy complaining about the left-wing those who delivered the agreement between the BBC bias and the ridiculous obsession with wind farms. In and S4C, which has produced what is as close to an fact, about three weeks ago I even wrote a letter of operationally independent S4C in Wales as could be complaint to the BBC—the first I have written in my hoped for. We feared that that would not happen, but life, I think. I wrote to “EastEnders”, because there was the matter has been laid to rest. I also want to mention a line in it where someone said that somebody had died the BBC National Trustee for Wales, Elan Closs Stephens, as a result of a bee sting. I was approached by all the who played a terrific part in bringing about that agreement, apiarists in my constituency, who were outraged at the which needs to be publicly recognised. damage that that would do to beekeeping throughout My second point is about English language broadcasting Britain. I wrote to the BBC asking it to make it clear in Wales—an issue also raised by the former controller that dying from a bee sting is an incredibly rare event. of BBC Wales in a recent high-profile speech. Many When the BBC does such things on “EastEnders”, there Wales MPs have been so focused on the future operational should be a high-profile rebuttal of the idea that such independence of S4C that we have perhaps not argued events happen regularly. I am therefore taking advantage as strongly as we should have for Wales to have its fair of this debate to make that rebuttal, because I do not share of English language production. It hurt me a little think that the BBC issued one. when I read in the report of the former controller of The BBC is hugely important in Wales; indeed, it is BBC Wales that Welsh politicians did not fight remotely probably more important to Wales than to any other as hard for English language broadcasting in their part of the country. I know that we all think that, country as the Scots did. I thought that that was a but Wales is a proud nation, and the BBC not only challenge to us. One reason I wanted to speak in today’s delivers the same thing to Wales as to the rest of debate was to try to make it certain that Welsh politicians Britain, but actually underpins the culture of Wales. started fighting for their share of English language The BBC in Wales has its own orchestra. The BBC is broadcasting in Wales. It is not just a matter of S4C; it absolutely part of Welsh culture. It does a terrific amount is about English language broadcasting as well. of work for our unique language—Welsh, the language The hon. Member for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz) of heaven. It is not just S4C that has been involved in suggested looking at the issue like an accountant to see that, but the BBC, which has played such an important whether BBC broadcasting in Wales could be transferred part in developing the language. Indeed, it is one of the to Bristol. I can see that making a lot of sense from an 1119 BBC (Proposed Cuts)1 DECEMBER 2011 BBC (Proposed Cuts) 1120 accountant’s point of view, but my hon. Friend the and to relate to them. It is more difficult for it relate to Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns) and Members of Parliament. It places a responsibility on us other hon. Friends leapt to our feet like startled rabbits to make sure that we are noticed and that the BBC when we heard that. That is how we felt. I could not reports what we do. It is a serious concern, and I believe believe that anybody could possibly make such a that over the next couple of years, we will have to look suggestion—even in jest. It struck me that at that stage at whether the changes to the BBC in Cardiff actually not a single Member from Wales from any party other deliver what the controller tells us they are going to than the Conservatives must have heard it. I would have deliver. I hope that our fears will not prove to be worth thought that Opposition Members, including the being overly concerned about. hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith) who There is no doubt that the BBC faces a huge challenge. was not in his place at that stage, would have leapt to The reductions in the licence fee and in the investment their feet, too. that the BBC can make are going to mean an awful lot of changes, but £3.5 billion is a huge amount of money. Valerie Vaz: The hon. Gentleman is being slightly My view is that the BBC will return to the swaggering, unfair or failing to understand the point I was making. confident self it used to be but has perhaps not been for It was a simple one. I meant that if it was a question of the last couple of years, so that I can start to feel costs, then there was such a possibility. It is not on comfortable complaining about the BBC again. I look anybody’s agenda, but I thought that, just by saying it, forward to regaining some of the pleasure I have often perhaps the situation could be saved. taken from that. Glyn Davies: I thank the hon. Lady. When she made that suggestion, it was the first time that I had ever 1.39 pm heard it. Perhaps this is the quickest ever way to save a situation—three quarters of an hour after what the Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab): I thank the long hon. Lady said. That seems promising, but the suggestion list of Members who have put pressure on a tight time itself is so unreasonable and outrageous that one cannot scale to enable us to debate this important issue. In my even contemplate it. My own view is that if changes brief speech I shall highlight, as others have already, the have to be made, perhaps we could move Bristol to important and valuable local identity and distinctiveness—a Cardiff. phrase to which I shall return time and again—of the BBC’s output. I shall focus on local radio, but I shall Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): I thank the hon. also say something about the importance of local Gentleman for giving way, and I am sorry I had slipped investigative journalism on television. out of the Chamber when that remark was made. I do As part of its Delivering Quality First project, BBC not think anything serious was meant by it. I believe local radio is expected to find savings of some 12%, but that the BBC Cardiff operation is fantastic. As we all for some reason BBC Tees, my local radio station, is know, it is the home of “Doctor Who”. I cannot believe expected to find savings of 20%. There is no transparency that the significant investment made by BBC Wales in and no rationale for the disproportionate cuts that my Cardiff in recent years will be overtaken by a move local station is expected to absorb, which will pose a across the nearby channel. severe risk to its link with its listeners and the local identity and distinctiveness that are rightly cherished. Glyn Davies: I thank the hon. Gentleman for reinforcing my point. Delivering Quality First states that the BBC Trust wants to Alun Cairns: Does my hon. Friend think that the hon. “protect the five editorial priorities that the Director-General has Member for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz) meant Bristol, identified: news; children’s programming; UK drama and comedy; Tennessee or Bristol in Avon? knowledge programming; and the coverage of events of national importance.” Glyn Davies: I think I will pass on that one. I certainly agree that the corporation should concentrate My third point is about political coverage in Wales. its licence fee expenditure on the output that most The new controller of BBC Wales has produced a plan people expect from it, but I also believe that local radio for the future. On the face of it, the plan is a worry for is the section of its output that seems most personal to, politicians, particularly those based here in Westminster. and most owned by, the licence fee payer. Many people It looks as if political coverage in Wales, particularly of have diligently paid their licence fees year in year out, politics in Westminster, will be reduced. If that happened, and do not use other parts of the BBC’s service such as it would be a huge concern for me. I am reassured that it iPlayer or BBC 3. Local listeners feel very close to local will not. We will have to wait and see the extent to which presenters, and I think that BBC radio is the best transferring the production of programmes from BBC broadcasting example of localism in action. That is Wales to the private sector happens. I gather that one certainly true of BBC Tees, as is reflected in its record programme in particular will be commissioned by the listening figures and the fact that its audience satisfaction private sector. Let us wait and see how it works out and rates are at an all-time high. whether it delivers the same level of political coverage I am not sure that the BBC’s actions comply with the that we have been used to. trust’s wish to ensure that it My feeling—this is a criticism I have made of the “continues to improve the extent to which its services resonate BBC in the past and I have heard Opposition Members with all the UK’s nations, regions and communities.” express the same concern—is that coverage of Westminster If anything, its proposals for BBC Tees drive a coach politics is not as strong as it should be. It is more and horses through the special and distinctive service convenient for the BBC, given that it is located in offered by local radio. I see that my hon. Friend the Cardiff, to contact Members of the National Assembly Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) is present. I must 1121 BBC (Proposed Cuts)1 DECEMBER 2011 BBC (Proposed Cuts) 1122

[Mr Iain Wright] Julian Smith: The hon. Gentleman refers to the limited fat in local BBC stations. Len Tingle, who followed me point out, with the greatest respect to my hon. Friend, around for a day last year, persuaded his wife to accompany that communities in Teesside often have little in common him on a day out in the Dales and an evening at a B and with communities in Tyneside and Wearside. I predict B. She ended up carrying all his bags and acting as that if the cuts go ahead and programming is shared cameraman in the evening. I think that that shows how between my area and, for instance, his, the listener hard local journalists are working day in, day out. engagement and interaction that constitute an important part of any local radio station’s activity will cease. Mr Wright: I entirely agree. The corporation has stated that staple programmes Another aspect of the local identity and distinctiveness such as the breakfast show and the early evening drive-time to which I have referred is the fierce passion for and show will be protected. That seems to suggest that loyalty to an area. My hon. Friend the hon. Member for teams, indeed armies, of people are allocated to specific Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield), in a far more eloquent local radio programmes, which is certainly not the case speech than I could ever make, presented the case for at BBC Tees. I am struck by the amount of multitasking ensuring that local radio stations are partisan in that that is involved in producing, presenting, and investigative sense. It is significant that BBC Tees’s strapline is “proud journalism. It is not unusual for Ali Brownlee, for of where we live”. The station’s championing of new example, to present a football show on, say, a Tuesday renewable and offshore wind technology in the area is evening, reporting on what is invariably a defeat for second to none, and its advocacy of the area during the Middlesbrough, and then to serve as anchor for the loss of the steel plant in Redcar and its unconfined joy breakfast show a few hours later. when the plant was sold as a going concern to SSI showed that it would always fight Teesside’s case. While Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East he is still in the Chamber, let me pay tribute to my hon. Cleveland) (Lab) rose— Friend the Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop) for ensuring that the plant Mr Wright: I will give way to my hon. Friend, who I and its workers remained on Teesside. believe is the only season ticket holder left at Middlesbrough Much of that passion for and pride in the station derives football club. from its staff. The presenters, journalists and production staff at BBC Tees are all professionals, and fiercely loyal Tom Blenkinsop: I second my hon. Friend’s support to the region. Most of the presenters were born and for Ali Brownlee. I also pay tribute to Mark Drury, raised in the area, which has given them a knowledge of another member of the BBC Tees sport team. However, and affinity with the area that is unsurpassed in any other given the record-setting losing form of Hartlepool this broadcasting medium. Both Ali Brownlee and John season, I should have thought that my hon. Friend Foster, the former breakfast show host who now presents would be much more appreciative of the station’s coverage the afternoon show, were born in Middlesbrough. Neil of Middlesbrough and, indeed, Guisborough Town football Green, who currently presents the drive-time show, was clubs. born in Hartlepool, was a teacher in the area, and still lives in my constituency. It is important to bear in mind May I now strike a serious note, and ask my hon. that those people use the same services as their listeners. Friend whether it is not rather dangerous that northern BBC stations such as BBC Tees are being subjected to Such loyalty and passion, however, are not the same cuts of more than 20% while their southern counterparts as slavish devotion. The quality of the journalism on the are being subjected to cuts in single figures? station is extremely high and challenging. I can certainly say, as an elected representative, that we are not given an easy ride when being questioned by presenters. I certainly Mr Wright: I admire and respect my hon. Friend’s was not given an easy ride this week when I was championing of Guisborough Town, of which I understand questioned about the autumn statement, along with the he is the president, but I should prefer to draw a veil hon. Member for Redcar (Ian Swales). The station’s over Hartlepool United’s appalling home record of passion for ensuring that local politics is viewed in the seven defeats in a row. I think it best not to talk about context of what we do here in Westminster is very that. valuable. I agree with my hon. Friend’s point about access to In the run-up to last year’s general election, all the local sport provision. My only criticism of BBC Tees is candidates for the seat that I now represent went to the that it gives far too much coverage to a local non-league BBC Tees studio, where we were questioned and challenged team called Darlington. by Neil Green, who also fielded calls from listeners and I am not sure that such practices as the sharing of prospective voters for well over an hour. It is difficult to afternoon or evening shows will ensure that those 20% think of another widely used, indeed universal, medium savings are achieved. The excellent John Foster show, that would allow such direct democratic challenge, such which is broadcast between 2pm and 4pm, benefits professionalism, and such reach to and interaction with from the resources of a presenter and a producer who our constituents. Because many people in my area do doubles up as a broadcast assistant. There is hardly a not have access to the internet, e-mail or social media, huge amount of fat or inefficiency in BBC local radio, BBC local radio is the sole means by which citizens can at least in my area. I fear that the loss of jobs and question people in positions of authority or people who expertise will inevitably result in a deterioration in are standing for election. programme quality, not through the fault of BBC staff, but simply because they will have too much to do. Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): Does my hon. Audiences will decline because they will no longer experience Friend agree that local radio stations such as the Greater that sense of local identity and distinctiveness. Manchester station not only give our constituents a 1123 BBC (Proposed Cuts)1 DECEMBER 2011 BBC (Proposed Cuts) 1124 chance to challenge us throughout the year, but give us thereby reducing plurality of provision? A guaranteed a chance to garner support for important local and licence fee income of £3.5 billion and a total income of regional campaigns, such as the campaigns for the £5 billion puts the BBC in a strongly favourable position Manchester hub and my own campaign here for the compared with providers who have to deal with fluctuating teaching of emergency life support skills? advertising income and economic unpredictability. Critics of BBC budget cuts need to recognise that it Mr Wright: I entirely agree. As I said earlier, BBC may well be able to operate more efficiently in some of local radio can serve as a champion for particular the many areas of its output, and, indeed, that it might issues. not need to operate in all those areas, as other providers In the time left to me, I want to outline my concerns may be better placed to cover them. To the credit of the about the cuts to local investigative journalism. The BBC—and the Secretary of State for Wales—freezing “Inside Out”programme provides in-depth and important the licence fee has resulted in its being forced to look at local journalism. It is comparable in quality and scope what it does, and the Delivering Quality First agenda is to Granada’s “World in Action” in the 1970s and 1980s, the outcome, although I would suggest that it should be and no other current broadcaster or programme, with the start of its reaching the desired outcome. the possible exception of Channel 4’s “Dispatches”, is I want the BBC to start by focusing on what other able to match it. In my region, its exposé on Southern providers might do and what capacity they may have for Cross care homes and investigation into the supply providing entertainment and information, as the BBC chain used by the businesses of Mike Ashley, the owner must ask itself how it can ensure that it strikes an of Newcastle United, were important and showed appropriate balance in services and subject areas while investigative journalism at its best. The 40% cut to that representing all parts of the nations and regions of the programme will allow those with powerful vested interests United Kingdom. How can it contribute to innovation, to sleep more soundly in their beds, which should be rather than squeeze out competition? Should it operate avoided. in every area where there are commercial alternatives, There is, of course, cross-fertilisation between the such as in the market that Radio 1 covers? Plurality and two elements of the BBC. Local radio investigations news output to target audiences must be considered of and points put forward by listeners can feed into television course, but do we need to continue with the same journalism, and vice versa. The quality of local provision traditional approach? will fall as a result of these cuts, and licence fee payers in It may be unfashionable to mention James Murdoch my area will receive a poorer service. at present, and I would condemn him if he were to be found guilty of any of the allegations that have been Julian Smith: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that made. the recent policing scandals in Cleveland and my area of Yorkshire would not have been analysed properly had it not been for BBC local radio and television news? Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab): If. Mr Wright: I entirely agree. The BBC revealed the costs of those police investigations and challenged those Alun Cairns: If the right hon. and learned Member in authority on such financial issues. for Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman) wants to The world is getting much smaller in the sense that it intervene on that point, I will happily respond. is becoming ever more interconnected. People have James Murdoch has highlighted that when some years access to news events across the world, such as the Arab ago Radio 2 was losing its target audience of 24 to spring, in a matter of seconds through BBC World 45-year-olds, it paid millions of pounds to recruit Jonathan Service and News 24, as well as through broadcasters Ross to try to regain those listeners even though commercial such as Sky and CNN. Paradoxically, and somewhat operators already addressed that audience. If that is not perversely, the BBC cuts proposals will result in less an example of the BBC squeezing out competition, I do local provision, but that is equally important. That not know what is. should be avoided. One of the BBC’s great strengths is Does it make sense for the BBC to cover sporting its local output, and that should be protected as much events that ITV, Channels 4 or 5 or Sky would like to as possible. broadcast? I agree that we need to look at what should be free to air and whether pay per view is appropriate in 1.51 pm all areas, but let us consider the example of Formula 1. Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): It is simplistic The BBC has paid £300 million to screen Formula simply to complain about the cuts the BBC is facing. 1 over a five-year period. That amounts to £3 million We need to take into account the broader economic per race, yet Sky will also broadcast every race. The perspective. Instead of adopting the top-down approach partnership between Sky and the BBC is a significant of considering where savings can be made, our starting and positive step forward, as it is certainly better than point should be to ask the following question: what do the previous situation of their competing outright, but we want the BBC to do and to achieve? Let me say at two issues remain unresolved. First, could not ITV, the outset that I am a strong supporter of the BBC. The Channels 4 or 5 or another broadcaster screen that quality of its output is first class, and it covers subjects popular sport? Secondly, the simple fact of the BBC that no commercial operator would consider addressing. bidding with public money will drive up the price and It responds positively to education and social needs and squeeze opportunities for others. demands. As a public service broadcaster, it ticks all the I recognise that the quality of the BBC can give it an boxes and more. However, in doing the “and more” edge over other broadcasters, but I remind Members part, does it stifle competition and squeeze out competitors, that the BBC covered test match cricket for a long time, 1125 BBC (Proposed Cuts)1 DECEMBER 2011 BBC (Proposed Cuts) 1126

[Alun Cairns] While I am discussing Wales-related issues, I want to join my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire but the greatest innovations in the coverage of the sport (Glyn Davies) in recognising the deal on S4C and I pay occurred when the broadcasting rights were won by tribute to the BBC and the Secretary of State for Channel 4 and then Sky, who took coverage to a much delivering what he promised at the outset: a channel more sophisticated level. Innovations such as Hawk-Eye that was well funded, secure in its funding for the future were introduced and a more informal approach to and operationally and editorially independent. There cricket attracted more viewers and new audiences. were many sceptics in the debate, but even they have I pay tribute to the BBC’s website coverage, which now been won over. I support the tribute that was paid has set the standard for such output. It covers national to Elan Closs Stephens and to the chairman of S4C, and regional news in a structured way, and addresses Huw Jones, at the end of the negotiations, despite some subject matters across the spectrum from hard news to of the difficult tensions among the membership of the social gossip. It is an excellent example of the innovation authority. the BBC can achieve. Yet if it continues to dominate Let me return to the broader issues. I know that the this part of the market, that could prevent other BBC has made significant progress on salary levels, but providers—newspapers, broadcasters or even new there remains scope for some further progress, particularly entrants—from having the opportunity to innovate. in relation to talent. I know that Graham Norton’s deal The BBC set excellent standards, but it needs to consider reduced from £16.9 million over three years to £4 million whether there should be a subsequent, partial withdrawal over two. when the market has matured. I strongly support the BBC’s activities in areas where Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab): I am the market cannot provide. News in general is extremely grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way, especially important, and without the BBC’s news activities in as I just came into the Chamber a few minutes ago. He many parts of the UK there simply would not be any talks about salaries at the BBC. Would he take this coverage of significant news or social or cultural events. opportunity to make a comment about Jeremy Clarkson Wales and Scotland are of particular relevance in this and say something about responsibilities coming with regard, especially with the advent of devolution. salaries? Other Members have talked about local television, so Alun Cairns: I would certainly underline that point, I shall now briefly address a parochial issue. The UK but we should bear the context in mind. I did not see the press does not always cover Wales as adequately as it broadcast and although I have read some reports about should. This is where the BBC comes into its own of it, I would like to watch it before I comment specifically. course, but in Wales its implementation of the Delivering I have no doubt that the Secretary of State will refer to Quality First agenda involves a squeeze on its political it when he sums up. coverage. It argues that news is not being cut under the I was talking about salary levels and progress has current proposals, yet there is a reduction in political been made, but Graham Norton still earns £4 million output. Politics is news, so there is obviously a cut to over two years. I am sure that if that amount was news. squeezed further, he probably would not walk. Reference Although the BBC has, to its credit, responded well has already been made to the fact that David Dimbleby to devolution, that should not be achieved at the cost of earns £15,000 per episode. Anne Robinson’s salary was coverage of non-devolved matters. Over recent years, cut from £4 million over two years to £2 million over there has been a trend to reduce political coverage on two years. Demand for such roles clearly outstrips supply mainstream news outlets. Welsh questions have been and the BBC has a fantastic ability in developing talent. covered on a mainstream outlet in Wales since 1987, but It generates the supply as well as satisfying the demand. under current proposals that will no longer be the case. There is no excuse for paying such salaries to those people. Glyn Davies: Does my hon. Friend agree that Members of all parties must not stand back on this issue? Instead, Julian Smith: Does my hon. Friend agree that work we must raise our voices to complain, as a former needs to be done to ensure that management salaries at controller of the BBC has urged, so that we in Wales get the BBC in London and the south are much more the coverage we deserve? equitable with management salaries and executive salaries in the north? Alun Cairns: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention, and in his speech he highlighted that very Alun Cairns: I am grateful for that point. The ultimate point, and I underline it and pay tribute to it. Let us all test is transparency and that is an area where the BBC have confidence about complaining to the BBC when has taken some small steps. For comparison, the agenda we are unhappy so that it can respond. If we do not air of the Government as regards local authorities, where issues and concerns, how will the BBC know about every invoice in excess of £500 is published, leads me to them? expect the BBC to go that way, too. That greater I recognise that we, as politicians, are not the most transparency would allow people to judge and would popular people in the world. I would suggest, however, better inform the BBC about its judgments and, no that some of the issues we debate are at least sometimes doubt, misjudgments, on occasion. relevant to mainstream outlets in the nations and regions In the minute I have left, let me refer to Professor of the UK. There is no proposal to change coverage on Anthony King’s report about how the BBC must better the English regional output—granted, there will be reflect the nations and regions of the United Kingdom local changes to BBC radio in England, but in Wales on the network. It has taken some positive steps. For that situation does not exist. example, “Doctor Who” has been highlighted in this 1127 BBC (Proposed Cuts)1 DECEMBER 2011 BBC (Proposed Cuts) 1128 debate and it is now filmed and produced in Cardiff. As I said, everybody has mentioned “Doctor Who”, There is a significant shift to Salford, too, but that does but I would also mention “Torchwood”, which, in my not get away from the fact that television from the view, is one of the best programmes on the BBC. The nations and regions of the UK about the nations and maker of “Doctor Who” and “Torchwood” is Russell T regions of the UK should be broadcast on the network. Davies, who is one of the best programme makers of my Let me highlight, for example, “Boys from the Blackstuff”, generation. The right hon. Member for Bath (Mr Foster) a pioneering programme about Merseyside that educated mentioned this earlier—I wonder whether Russell T significant numbers of people about some of the culture Davies would be the programme maker he is today there. “Auf Wiedersehen, Pet” was a programme that without the investment in developing good programme made the north-east attractive to many people, and it makers that we have had from the BBC in the past. I brought it out through the characters. We need to see would not like to see people like Russell T Davies walk more of that sort of innovation and I am grateful to away from the BBC. They are amazing and creative have had the opportunity to highlight it. people and that quality makes the BBC better than any other public service broadcaster in the world. 2.4 pm Julian Smith: Out of interest, where does the hon. Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab): I Lady stand on “Mad Men”? What is her view of American congratulate the Backbench Business Committee on imports and, in particular, of that great show? giving us this debate today and the Members who called for it, particularly the hon. Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) and my hon. Friends the Members for Angela Smith: I must confess that I do not watch Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell) and for Hayes and “Mad Men”. I want to focus on the output of the BBC Harlington (John McDonnell). I called for such a debate today. in my Westminster Hall debate on this issue, because I In the end, the cuts to local radio proposed by the feel very strongly that we must ensure that the BBC and BBC are the most worrying. As the NUJ has pointed the Government understand the depth and strength of out, under the plans 22% of local radio output will go feeling on the issue. More than 50 MPs tried to speak in at a time when listening figures are going up. Current the Westminster Hall debate—obviously, not all of them affairs and investigative programming will be badly could get into a 90-minute slot, so this is a welcome affected across the board, but 40% of the reductions are opportunity to extend the number of voices heard in outside London, which will have a disproportionate Parliament on this topic. Those voices need to be heard. impact on local radio broadcasting. On top of that, as The BBC Trust is planning to achieve savings of my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Central (Paul about £670 million a year by 2016-17, with a net loss of Blomfield) pointed out, output will go regional at local about 2,000 jobs across the piece. The £670 million-worth level, which is a contradiction, at 1 pm. Drive-time of savings identified will be lumped together with broadcasting will be local but then output will go £30 million of savings generated by exceeding the targets national after 6 pm. On Sundays, local broadcasting for the BBC’s current efficiency programme, which will will finish at 1 pm. The total reduction in local broadcasting result in total savings by 2017 of 20%. By anybody’s is somewhere in the region of 50%. We have had a pilot standards, that is a fairly significant cut in funding for on afternoon regional programmes in South Yorkshire our public broadcaster. The question is: why is that and it did not work. Many of the people in South being done? Why are we seeing that level of cuts? Yorkshire who would tune in to Paulette Edwards tuned We know that the cost of the licence fee has been out as soon as they realised it had gone regional. As I frozen until 2017, yet it has gone up by just £10 since said in the Westminster Hall debate, we are not parochial 2007 and now costs just over £12 a month for all the TV, but we listen to local radio for a reason—because we radio, websites and live events covered by the BBC. want to hear about local news, local politics and local That compares with about £60 a month for some concerns. If we wanted to go regional or national, we subscription services and, as the National Union of would tune in to another station. Journalists has pointed out, if all the current licence Local radio serves a very important purpose and fee-paying households contributed just 7p extra a day, delivers to a specific socio-demographic audience, as the cuts could be stopped. It is important to underline was pointed out earlier. The point has been made the facts that lie behind the measures that we are about the age profile of Radio Sheffield, but it should discussing. It is critical to point that out. also be placed on the record that two thirds of the Of course, everybody has been talking today about station’s audience are classed as C2DE—in other words what is good about the BBC. Many people have drawn it has a working-class audience. Many of those people attention to “Doctor Who”and I think it is worth drawing listen to no other station than BBC Radio Sheffield. It attention to some of the very expensive programmes is true that Radio 2 and Radio Hallam get a bigger made by the BBC, which are among the most loved of audience in South Yorkshire, but the reach and audience of its output. “Frozen Planet”, for instance, is an amazing Radio Sheffield is significantly higher than the 12% series. Everybody is now aware of the images of the Radio 4 weekly audience of 157,000 and the audience criminal penguins that are doing the rounds on the of Radio 5 Live, which reaches 126,000 listeners across BBC. “Springwatch” and “Autumnwatch” are very the week—just 9.9%. expensive programmes to make, but their educational It is crucial that the BBC Trust gets this decision value, never mind their entertainment value and their right. My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Central value in raising awareness of the environment, means pointed out how passionately people believe in their that I would hate to see them disappear from the BBC’s local radio station, and I want to underline that point. output. They must be expensive to make—they are live What we enjoy about Radio Sheffield is the diversity of and they involve a lot of filming over a long time. its output and the way it connects with its audience. 1129 BBC (Proposed Cuts)1 DECEMBER 2011 BBC (Proposed Cuts) 1130

[Angela Smith] Scotland is not a region—it is a nation, and a nation needs a specific type of broadcasting capability available This is a critical point. My hon. Friend made some to it. We have our own national Parliament, which as funny comments about the sports coverage on Radio everybody knows has many significant legislative powers. Sheffield and I point out that fans of Barnsley FC, We have our own civic institutions, we have our own Doncaster FC and Rotherham FC also rely on Radio legal system and we provide education and health services Sheffield for distinctive and very partisan coverage. We entirely differently to the rest of the UK. As everyone must maintain that. I will counterbalance the point he knows, we have our own national culture and we require made about Sheffield United by pointing out that Sheffield that to be reported in a remarkably different way to any Wednesday fans, of whom I am one, are also keen other region in the United Kingdom. That is why it is Radio Sheffield listeners. On his point about Sheffield absolutely critical that we get the correct resources to United playing Leeds United next year when they are ensure that our nation is served adequately. promoted, I must say that they will have to get past Sheffield Wednesday first—they are fifth in the table Alun Cairns: Does the hon. Gentleman feel that and we are second—so we will see how that goes. Wales, which is also a nation in its own right, has the I want to emphasise the loyalty that there is for BBC same needs as Scotland? local radio. Last Saturday, I was out canvassing in Penistone picking up lots more Labour votes—the swing Pete Wishart: Yes, is the short answer. I am very to us there is quite significant—and I found what one grateful to the hon. Gentleman for turning up today. lady said particularly interesting. She said, “I know There are two Welsh Conservative Members of Parliament who you are: I hear you on Radio Sheffield.” One thing present and we are hearing from Members from right that Radio Sheffield does is debate local politics in a across the United Kingdom, but is it not unfortunate very fair and balanced way, giving it significant coverage. that other than the hon. Member for Midlothian She went on to say, “I absolutely love Radio Sheffield (Mr Hamilton), who is here on Whip’s duty, there is not and Toby Foster—there’s nobody else I would listen to one of the 40 Labour Members from Scotland here to in the morning.” A lot of people would say the same debate such an important and significant issue as the about Rony Robinson, Paulette Edwards, Howard Pressman BBC in Scotland? It is a real tragedy that they would and all the other broadcasters on Radio Sheffield. That rather turn up and vote on English issues than discuss is the point—the proposals put forward by the trust will issues of real importance for the people of Scotland. have a disproportionate impact on local radio. It must We need a BBC that is properly resourced to cover listen, take note and change its plans. I also think that adequately what is happening in England, but what is the Government should think again about freezing the happening is that one nation’s BBC services are being licence fee. protected at the expense of another’s. Lots of people in The hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Scotland like Radio 4, and when I am in London I put Cairns) said that the BBC has an unfair advantage over the Today programme on, but what we learn from the some of its competitors. However, Radio Centre, which Today programme is usually about the NHS in England is the industry body for commercial radio, has said: and education in England and Wales. I like hearing about the NHS in England and finding out what is “While we understand that the BBC needs to make savings to going on within the education services in England and meet the terms of its licence fee settlement, we do not”— Wales, but that means absolutely nothing to me or my the word “not” is underlined— constituents. We are continually served up a diet of UK “accept that this should inevitably lead to its most distinctive news that is totally inconsequential to Scotland. output being diluted.” The hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Even commercial radio understands the role that local Cairns) made this point and it was also pointed out by radio has to play in delivering cultural, political and Anthony King, who produced a very good and detailed social services to the people of this country. I urge the report on how the BBC broadcasts in the nations and House to support the motion. regions. It still has things absolutely wrong.

2.16 pm Alun Cairns: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that although the BBC has taken a positive step, partly to Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): It respond to Anthony King, by moving to other parts of is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for the UK for broadcasting, nothing replaces the broadcast Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith). I am very of Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish issues on the much enjoying all this football banter between northern network as well? Members of Parliament and finding out about all these broadcasters who I had not heard of, such as Ali Pete Wishart: Absolutely. That was a key feature of Brownlew and Toby Foster. I am going to have to tune the King report. He said that a lot was being lost in into some local radio services in the north-east. Obviously, relation to Scotland and Wales when it came to national they provide a first-class service; we would not expect news reporting. Sometimes, we got the funny little story anything else from local radio in the north-east. at the end about going up to Loch Ness or Snowdon or Hon. Members might be surprised to hear that I am somewhere and giving an amusing little anecdote to end not going to speak about local services. I am going to the news, but in terms of significant reporting of news speak about national services, but not those provided concerning Scotland, Wales and even the English regions, by the wonderful Radio 4, Radio 2 and Radio 1. I am there was absolutely nothing. going to talk about the impact of the cut on national The King report made another important point, which services in Scotland. We will experience a disproportionate the hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan will recall. cut compared with that across the United Kingdom. Some English journalists had to be sent on devolution 1131 BBC (Proposed Cuts)1 DECEMBER 2011 BBC (Proposed Cuts) 1132 training so that they would start to understand the Calvin Harris. Bands such as Biffy Clyro and Frightened difference between devolved powers and reserved powers Rabbit sent their first demos to “introducing…”, and and work out how to communicate that to the rest of they are now to go. the nation. They still get it absolutely wrong sometimes. Such is the response to those little programmes on We get it so often that we are becoming a little tired of it Radio 1 that a petition on the subject has already in Scotland and, presumably, in Wales and possibly in secured the signature of some 6,000 people—more, per some of the English regions. head of population, than the petition to try to save A particular type of approach is required when Radio 6. That is how much concern there is about it in broadcasting for a nation; we have very different Scotland. That is the type of impact that there will be requirements, in terms of how the everyday experiences on local services. I am grateful to the Under-Secretary of the Scottish people are reflected and reported, and of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport, the how the news agenda is shaped. That is why the cuts will hon. Member for Wantage (Mr Vaizey), who will meet have a disproportionate impact on the people of Scotland. campaigners who are trying to save the programmes. I Let me detail what we will experience in Scotland. One have not had a response from Mr Thompson; perhaps in 10 jobs at BBC Scotland is to be lost, and there is to we could have a discussion about his coming to meet the be a reduction of something like 16% in the total campaigners, so that he can explain to them why that budget. BBC Scotland’s news operation and support iconic little programme is to be shelved. The proposal is staff will be hit hardest by the cuts. Between 100 and ridiculous, because it will not save any money; there will 120 jobs will be lost at the Pacific Quay headquarters in still be an “introducing…”; it will just broadcast across Glasgow by 2016-17. It is feared that production operations, the United Kingdom. The individual identities of the and online and Gaelic services, and perhaps sport, will programmes, and the opportunity for bands from Northern be cut and hurt. BBC Scotland’s news operation is to Ireland, Wales and Scotland, will be lost. You know, lose 30 jobs; 20 jobs will be lost at Radio Scotland. Madam Deputy Speaker, how passionately I feel about Craft and production will shelve 35 jobs, and operations the music industry and opportunity for young artists. I and support will lose another 30. The whole future of really hope that the BBC thinks again. the BBC symphony orchestra is still under review. That I have only a few minutes left and a number of issues is on top of efficiency savings that will cost some to raise. The reason I am so annoyed by, and angry 20 jobs. about, the BBC cuts in Scotland is that we do not even The future of BBC Scotland’s “Newsnight Scotland” get our population share’s-worth back from the BBC. programme—affectionately known as “Newsnicht”down We in Scotland are actually subsidising the BBC; we here—is under threat. It is an important feature of the give more through the licence fee than we get back in news output and agenda in Scotland. It gives us the services. I am appalled that Scotland has to subsidise only opportunity that we get in the evening to go over, the BBC for the rest of the UK, just as we have to debate, and comment on what has emerged during the subsidise the rest of the UK when it comes to resourcing, day in the Scottish Parliament, elsewhere in Scotland, and the balance of payments to the Treasury. That is a or down here. I enjoy turning up at 11 o’clock in the feature that we have had to put up with. If we have to evening to contribute to “Newsnicht”. subsidise the BBC’s television and radio services, let us do what we can to protect the services that we have. The problem with “Newsnight Scotland”is that although We will need a properly resourced BBC, because there has been an assurance from the BBC that it will be there will be a few big issues coming Scotland’s way in maintained, BBC 2 will be making a transition to the next few years. We will ask the people of Scotland to high-definition television, and there is not the capability make one of the most substantial and important choices or opportunity for opt-outs for the nations or the that the nation has ever had; they will have the opportunity regions. If the BBC is listening to this, I hope that it will to say yes to becoming a normal, self-governing nation, tell us what it will do to ensure that we continue to get like those throughout the rest of the world. “Newsnight Scotland”, because it is a critical feature to so many people who are interested in the daily political and cultural diet in Scotland. Mr Iain Wright: When? The Broadcasting Entertainment Cinematograph and Pete Wishart: It will be in the second half of the Theatre Union in Scotland says that the scale of the parliamentary term, as was set out in our manifesto; cuts means that it will be almost impossible to ensure that will be delivered. The BBC will have to be properly that the job losses will happen through voluntary resourced to ensure that we can continue to inform the redundancies; compulsory redundancies are likely. It is people of Scotland about this important choice. That is so concerned about the scale of the cuts in Scotland why we need BBC services to be properly resourced. that industrial action has been talked about, and might be a feature, unless we get the problem resolved. Back in 2005, production output from Scotland was below 4%; that was appalling, particularly given that, as People are taking the issue into their own hands in I have said, we subsidise the BBC. Progress will be made other ways, too. There is a fantastic campaign about on that, as the Secretary of State knows. All credit to “introducing…”, which is a little programme on Radio 1 the BBC: it has improved the situation. We are getting on a Monday evening, from 10 pm to 12 midnight. There to close to our population share target of 9% for is “introducing…in Northern Ireland”, “introducing…in production, and there is a commitment to meet that Wales”, and “introducing…in Scotland”. That is under target by 2016. I do not know how cutting the BBC in threat by the BBC. They are great programmes; they Scotland so dramatically will help to achieve that. Again, give many new artists and bands a radio platform for I would like the BBC to explain how we are to hit those the first time in their career. They are responsible for the production targets by 2016 if we are to cut so deep and early development of artists such as Paolo Nutini and so hard in the BBC in Scotland. I hope that the BBC 1133 BBC (Proposed Cuts)1 DECEMBER 2011 BBC (Proposed Cuts) 1134

[Pete Wishart] John McDonnell: There are always benefits from a process like this. My concern is about the long-term recognises that what I am talking about is not a local or future and some of the short-term implications that the regional, but a national service in Scotland. Our nation hon. Gentleman himself pointed out. We should not is losing out. wander into this debate naively, because there is a separate agenda, which was set by James Murdoch at Mr David Hamilton (Midlothian) (Lab) rose— that time. The tone of sheer arrogance in that speech Pete Wishart: Of course I give way to Scottish Labour. somewhat contrasts with the tone of his performance in the hearings by the Select Committee on Culture, Media Mr Hamilton: I thank Peter “nae pals” for his and Sport. In that speech, he proclaimed his advocacy contribution. Surely he should unite with everyone else of Darwinism, and he said that he believed in natural on the Opposition Benches, because the same cuts are selection in all things, particularly within the media affecting all of us. Surely it would be more helpful for market. It was like Gordon Gekko in “Wall Street” him to unite with the other Opposition parties, rather saying, “Greed…is good.” James Murdoch proclaimed than arguing his single line, as he usually does. that the law of the jungle worked. It was almost Orwellian. Pete Wishart: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I I shall quote him exactly: am four-square behind colleagues who want to ensure “There is an inescapable conclusion that we must reach if we that regions and local areas of the United Kingdom are to have a better society. The only reliable, durable and perpetual retain services; they are losing their services at the guarantor of independence of the media is profit.” expense of UK services such as Radio 4. Let us keep the That is exactly the agenda that was set. It is that local and national services. I say to the BBC: have philosophy in other sections of the media that has led another look at the impact of the cuts. Do well by the us all the way down to the Leveson inquiry and the nations, the regions, and local radio. descent of parts of the media into the gutter. This is not a conspiracy theory. I do not need to mention the 2.27 pm 11 occasions on which the Prime Minister has met John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): I Murdoch’s News International. I do not need to mention want to speak about the decision-making process that the six occasions on which the Secretary of State for has been taking place over the past couple of years, Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport has done so, or the which has, to be frank, been a nightmare. I am grateful three occasions on which the Deputy Prime Minister to the Backbench Business Committee for giving us the has done so. I do not think that it is part of those opportunity to hold this debate. My hon. Friend the meetings; I do not think that it is part of a conspiracy. I Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell) set out simply think that the Government share that agenda. the overall implications of Delivering Quality First. He chairs the National Union of Journalists parliamentary Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) group, of which I am the secretary. We have lived with (Con): Until the hon. Gentleman began to personalise the process for the last two years. We have met the staff this and mention individuals, I was prepared to share who have lost their jobs already, and the staff whose some of his concerns about the Murdoch speech and careers are now at risk. some of the claims that were made. Two things should What comes out of every one of these debates is a be perfectly clear. First, many Government Members consensual view across the House about the importance feel very warmly towards the BBC, and want to enfranchise of the BBC. It is always described as a jewel in the and support the tradition of public service broadcasting, crown of British culture, and as setting world standards which it does better than anyone else in the world. That in public service broadcasting. Many Members have comes not just from Back-Bench Members but, I am emphasised its critical role as a foundation stone of thrilled to say, from the Secretary of State and the local and national democracy. However, as a result of Prime Minister. Delivering Quality First, as Members have set out, The second thing is— there will be significant cuts over time, which not only undermines the BBC’s potential to maintain those standards Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. but shows that there is an agenda about the long-term This is an intervention, not a speech. [Interruption.] future of the BBC itself. Yes, but interventions must be brief, and we are coming It is important to discuss how we got here. There is a to the end—[Interruption.] Will the hon. Gentleman lesson for future Governments about how decisions are take his seat? This debate is due to end at approximately made on the issue. Never again should we have to go 3.15 pm, and there is a time limit for speeches of through this process. This is not just a budgetary exercise. 10 minutes for Members who have been in the Chamber The assault on the BBC is driven by an agenda that has all afternoon. Throughout, I have implored all Members been set elsewhere. I remember the James Murdoch to make their interventions brief. I am not negotiating lecture in 2009 at the Edinburgh television festival, in with the hon. Gentleman: I am telling him that he which he set out an agenda which, regrettably, the should make his intervention brief, and not make several Government are following almost to the letter. He set points. out the objective of the Murdoch empire to deregulate the media overall and undermine the BBC by cutting its Jesse Norman: Thank you very much indeed, Madam supply of funds. Deputy Speaker, I appreciate that. Alun Cairns: Does the hon. Gentleman not accept Does the hon. Gentleman not agree that his position that the freezing of the licence fee has made the BBC look would be much stronger if he focused on the benefits—the at its activities and, at the very least, has reduced the lowering of salaries, much greater flexibility and competition salaries of some of the highest-paid people in broadcasting? in the market—as well as the negatives as he sees them? 1135 BBC (Proposed Cuts)1 DECEMBER 2011 BBC (Proposed Cuts) 1136

John McDonnell: The hon. Gentleman is a new Member, history, in a vote of no confidence by the staff in the and I understand the point that he has made. Other director-general and his competence to manage the Members have made that point. I do not want to organisation. criticise him, but if he had been here throughout the I urge the BBC to pull back and start engaging in debate, he would have heard them make those specific proper discussions and consultations. Otherwise, as the points. I want to make my specific points, not seek to hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete replicate or repeat other points that have been made, if Wishart) said in relation to Scotland, some unions that is okay with the hon. Gentleman. might move towards industrial action unless there are I simply make this point. My concern is that this is proper negotiations and their views are taken account not just a cost-cutting exercise. It is part of a political of properly. I agree that that raises the issue of salaries agenda that, in the long term, is aimed at undermining in the BBC, and not just for the stars, but for management the BBC. It has been set outside Government—not in overall. I think that it is obscene that the director-general Government—but the Government concur with it. earns four times more than the Prime Minister. As has Secondly, I was here with the right hon. Member for been said, we should consider the high level of salaries Bath (Mr Foster) and my hon. Friend the Member for throughout and, in particular, the inequality between Great Grimsby, and was involved in discussions on the the high and low salaries. In a public organisation that licence fee settlement. I never ever want to go through is simply unacceptable. that exercise again, because it put at risk the future of a A number of Members have raised concerns about whole range of people, and that was not taken into local radio services, and we could list them and put account. the lists in the House Library for Members to see, but the cuts to stations right across the piece are I remember the Secretary of State advising the director- effectively undermining local radio as we know it. It has general of the BBC in August 2010 that there would be recently been praised very affectionately in two a long consultation on the BBC licence fee, which debates, yet BBC management does not seem to take would be determined the following spring. However, I account of the views of Members expressed here. I do also remember—my hon. Friend the Member for Great not believe that S4C is safe in the long term or that the Grimsby has alluded to this—that weekend in October, deal with hold. I think that the Government will come and the 48 hours in which the Government brought the back for more cuts. It is not about freezing the licence BBC in and threatened it. The right hon. Member for fee, as I think they will come back for further cuts in Bath is right: the BBC was threatened either with the future years. licence for the over-75s being taken over—in other words, a £530 million cut immediately—or it had to I am also anxious about the World Service. The right take on proposals on the World Service, BBC Monitor hon. Member for Bath has worked with us on that and and the Secretary of State’s grandiose plans for the there has been excellent cross-party work to try to future of television development. It was placed in an protect as much of the World Service as we can, but invidious position and there were threats of resignation, there have already been cuts and I think that it is still in which created pandemonium in the settlement process. jeopardy overall. Political coverage is being undermined We had thought that the process would be a rational not only in the regions, but nationally, as we have seen debate that this House could shape or influence in some 2,000 jobs going in some of the BBC’s core political way, but in fact it was the grubbiest deal we have seen in reportage. any public sector settlement of recent years. The people Overall, I am deeply anxious about the settlement. least taken account of were the workers who supply the The only way now is to have a proper discussion—the service itself, which I think was disgraceful. If we learn discussion we should have had last year. Instead of it nothing else across the parties, we should learn to being bounced through in 48 hours, there should have behave in such instances in future. been a proper discussion and consultation, and I believe What are the implications? One implication is that that the only way forward now is to reopen the licence the management must now implement another 1,000 job fee debate. cuts on top of the 7,000 that have been made since 2004. Let me say just one final thing on two parochial They are implementing those cuts with exceptionally matters. Several hon. Friends have mentioned the Asian limited consultation or engagement with the unions. Network, a service that has grown over the years into Agreements are being torn up before workers’ eyes with one of the country’s most popular and well received minimal consultation. stations and brought about social cohesion as the BBC is meant to, but a 50% cut in the Asian Network will, as My hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby every Member knows, undermine that service, and it referred to the meeting of BBC NUJ reps in Belfast on will be picked off. That is salami-slicing, and it undermines 14 October, which involved all staff, who were anxious the viability of particular services. about the process. I can quote the director-general—the problem with speaking in front of trained journalists is On my local BBC radio station, Radio London, sport that they normally know short-hand—who said: is one of its most popular elements, but we are now told that cricket, rugby league and rugby union will no “If you’re really that unhappy, if you think that you can’t do longer be covered, and that football coverage will be your best work here then leave—no-one is forcing you to stay.” curtailed. As a result of such cuts, a station eventually That is real management empathy—unfortunately, Hansard loses its listenership, and that in turn threatens the does not do irony—with people, many of whom are viability of the station itself. about to lose their jobs. Such behaviour by management That is what we are fighting for. We are fighting not would be unacceptable in any structure, whether public just against marginal cuts, but for the future of the or private. It resulted, for the first time in the BBC’s BBC, the future of local radio, the future of specialist 1137 BBC (Proposed Cuts)1 DECEMBER 2011 BBC (Proposed Cuts) 1138

[John McDonnell] should and should not travel and of where the disturbances were, and in dispelling some of the myths that popped services such as the Asian Network and the future of up on social media sites. services for the nations, regions and principalities that If BBC local radio goes, we will lose a vital service are under threat in the longer term. The only way in that reflects, celebrates and affirms countless local identities. which they can be saved is by breaking the Murdoch agenda, by getting back to a discussion about the BBC Tracey Crouch: Will the hon. Lady give way? as a public service, the jewel in the crown, and by reopening the debate about the licence fee—so that we can have a viable BBC for the long term. Luciana Berger: If the hon. Lady will forgive me, I will not, because I am conscious of the fact that one more hon. Member would like to speak before the 2.40 pm winding-up speeches begin. Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): The feeling from those I talk to who work at the BBC It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member is that local radio is being set up to lose its audience, so for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), who, that it can be scrapped completely at the next licence fee along with many Members, has made a fantastic speech. settlement. I sincerely hope that that is not the case, I, too, congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for because as a Liverpool MP I see the real value of local Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell) and the Backbench radio every day. That is why I have been campaigning Business Committee on securing this important and against the cuts and why over 1,500 people signed a timely debate. Many Members in the Chamber today petition that I had on my website, which I presented to took part in the Westminster Hall debate that was so Parliament a couple of weeks ago. For many people, over-subscribed and well attended, and, likewise, the BBC Radio Merseyside is the voice of the city, and it is topic has come up time and again at many Culture, home to some of its most famous institutions, including Media and Sport question sessions over the past year, the Roger Phillips show and the Billy Butler show. It is so our opportunity for a debate today in the Chamber is also hugely successful. It is the most listened to station a timely one. outside London, with over 300,000 listeners who, on We have heard from many Members about the different average, tune in for a staggering 16.2 hours a week. Yet casualties of the Delivering Quality First review, none the station will be one of the worst hit by the changes more tragic than the 2,000 people throughout the BBC and will see its staffing funding reduced by 20%. Radio who will lose their jobs as a result of it. I, too, will focus Merseyside is already run on a shoestring compared on the impact of the review on local radio—and in with the larger BBC services. Worse, as the majority of particular, on BBC Radio Merseyside. expenditure at the station is on fixed costs such as buildings, any budget reduction of this size cannot be It is clear from every contribution so far that all made without a disproportionate loss of locally produced Members and the public rightly cherish the BBC, which shows and cuts in jobs. is a source of national pride because of its quality, role in our public life and commitment to educate, inform Given that, it is rather strange that no cuts will be and entertain, but it is clear also that the BBC faces a made to Radio 4, which has an annual budget of huge challenge. The licence fee freeze until 2017 is the £99 million—it is more than twice the size of the largest worst in its history, and, given that it has to shoulder the commercial station in the UK. With 66% of the licence costs of the World Service, it is obvious that many fee spent on television, it is hard to understand why difficult decisions need to be made. funding for BBC 1 has been cut by only 3%. I do not believe that it is impossible to find savings from these Unfortunately, the BBC has exacerbated those difficulties significantly larger budgets. For example, “You and by producing a set of reductions that are, in some part, Yours”is a show on Radio 4 that is aired for one hour a fundamentally unfair: unfair because local radio faces a day, five days a week. It is a very informative programme, disproportionate cut while larger budgets are protected; and I enjoy listening to it when I get the chance. unfair because local radio provides a true community However, there are more people working on that one service to an audience who rely on it; and unfair because radio show for five hours a week than there are in the cuts will mean an end to local news-gathering and the entire staff complement at BBC Radio Merseyside. Is the locally produced content. BBC really saying that it cannot find any savings from The 39 BBC local radio stations throughout the UK that programme, or from its other larger radio stations are a unique and popular part of our media landscape, or television stations? To me, it does not add up. and severely reducing their output would be a huge loss. Alongside the reduction in funding, another planned Throughout the UK, 7 million people listen to their change is the sharing of local radio programmes between local BBC radio service, of whom 2 million listen to no groups or clusters of stations, so that at certain times of other BBC radio station. As well as being popular, BBC the day, instead of having individual local programmes, local radio is also value for money for the listener, stations will share programmes with neighbouring city costing on average 3.2p per listener hour, compared stations up to 50 miles away. Other Members have with BBC 1 on television, which costs 6.7p per viewing spoken about the impact that that will have in their hour, and BBC Radio 3, which costs 6.3p per listener localities. In reality, it means that there will be no local hour. programming for large parts of the week. Localness is All in the House have seen the value of their local the DNA of local radio—the clue is in the title. Once BBC radio station when it has come to emergencies—we one dilutes this service, one fundamentally changes the heard examples of flooding—or to the disturbances relationship between the provider and the listener—the this summer. BBC Radio Merseyside played a very licence fee payer. Local radio may be seen by senior important role in informing the public of where they managers as a quick and easy way to cut costs, but the 1139 BBC (Proposed Cuts)1 DECEMBER 2011 BBC (Proposed Cuts) 1140 listeners, who are primarily aged over 55 and in the covering the phenomenal events in the middle east and lower socio-economic groups, and for whom local radio north Africa. I look forward to the further development is not only a friend but a lifeline, do not agree. Local of world television. radio programme-sharing was tried in parts of the The public rightly value programmes such as “Frozen north in the early 1990s, and it failed to connect with Planet”, which other colleagues have mentioned, that audiences and to attract listeners, particularly in areas are visually stunning as well as informative. People also with a strong local identity such as Merseyside and value the BBC as an effective consumer champion in Tyneside. It is true that many stations in the midlands the UK and in Wales. BBC Cymru Wales is covering a and the south of England have been sharing programmes story about car parking management in my constituency, for some years, but they are seldom the stations with following a high number of customer complaints. The huge listening numbers. car park operator has complained to me that the BBC’s BBC senior managers will talk about “value for money” filming of the car park “created a general disturbance”, from the licence fee. I agree that that is crucial, but the and he has lambasted its “grossly unethical mafia-style planned cuts are not equal in impact. The impact on actions”. That surprised me because I think that the local radio will almost certainly cut much deeper, with BBC is doing an excellent job in reporting that important the likely loss of broadcast journalist jobs, including local story. The BBC is not afraid to ruffle feathers or to reporters and producers, reducing news coverage and pursue consumer rights. That is another reason why it programmes. Local radio therefore gets a double has massive public respect. whammy—fewer local programmes and huge job Finally, I thank the Backbench Business Committee losses, resulting in a much reduced news and for agreeing to this debate. It is important that we information service. This comes at a time when other recognise the huge value of what is the world’s best local news providers such as newspapers have been broadcaster. frantically reducing staff as they struggle to cope with the effects of the recession and influx of web-based news services. It seems that the BBC is keen to reduce 2.52 pm service in the one area of the market where there is a Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab): discernible gap. It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member The BBC has said that the consultation on the Delivering for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith). Quality First proposals will be a genuine one. I have My hon. Friends the Members for Liverpool, Wavertree written to the BBC about this, as have many of my (Luciana Berger), for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela constituents and many Members here today. I hope that Smith), for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield), and for senior managers will listen to what the public are saying. Hartlepool (Mr Wright) put forward a compelling case To be fair, the BBC has a strong tradition of doing that, for the BBC to think again about local radio. Surely the and I expect it to continue. Some press reports suggest BBC will think again given the passion and the forensic that the BBC might be listening to the calls from arguments of hon. Members from all parts of the various Members and that in the coming days we might House. see something of a U-turn on the cuts to local radio. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby That would surely be welcomed by all of us, as the (Austin Mitchell) for moving the motion and the members current proposals are unfair and the BBC should rightly of the Backbench Business Committee for choosing think again. I sincerely hope that Members on both BBC cuts, particularly in local radio, as the subject of sides of the House will support the Backbench Business today’s debate. It has been an excellent debate. Committee motion. The importance of the BBC to Britain today is hard to overstate. The BBC has unparalleled breadth, depth, 2.49 pm reach and appeal. It is, along with the NHS, one of the Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): I congratulate things about Britain that is most trusted and valued. It my hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby (Austin is a source of national pride for its quality and international Mitchell) on initiating this debate. impact. Whether through sport, drama or just Saturday night family viewing, the BBC is an integral part of life At a recent session of the Public Accounts Committee, in this country. We all think that we bring up our of which I am a member, we heard how the BBC children, but actually we do it in partnership with the delivered the efficiency savings requested under the last BBC and CBeebies. The BBC is valued worldwide. We licence settlement but maintained its high standards. could have had a whole debate on just the BBC’s That must be acknowledged. In 2004, 64% of the public children’s programmes, the World Service, BBC news, said that the BBC the BBC’s sports coverage, or the importance of the “maintains high standards of quality”. Proms and the great BBC orchestras to music in this Today, the figure is 78%. At the moment, 80% of people country. are happy that the BBC exists, compared with just 72% I want to take this opportunity to address some in 2004. The key factor in achieving those savings was points to the Secretary of State about his responsibility new technology. We have to be concerned about how for the BBC. His responsibility is to ensure that the future savings will be made, given that the savings in BBC remains strong and independent. If he wants a some sectors may already have been maximised and strong BBC, he will sometimes have to stand up for it, further staffing cuts of 10% are planned. Quality and a as we did, against the commercial sector. Of course it is broad range of programming across the UK must be important that we have a dynamic commercial broadcasting maintained. sector, but it was good that when we were in government I give special mention to the BBC World Service, the BBC got more channels on radio and TV, developed which has done an excellent job over the past year in major online services and expanded into digital. 1141 BBC (Proposed Cuts)1 DECEMBER 2011 BBC (Proposed Cuts) 1142

[Ms Harriet Harman] Jeremy”. The Secretary of State, appearing to have failed to fight his Department’s corner with the Treasury Not surprisingly, that attracted opposition from the and to have accepted cuts that were too deep, then commercial sector, and we withstood the pressure. I imposed major new financial responsibilities on the hope that the Secretary of State will stand up for the BBC in a rushed deal behind closed doors, to be paid BBC’s strength, independence and future development, for from licence fee funds. One was the cost of the and resist unwarranted pressure from the commercial World Service. sector. When and if he does that, he will have our full backing. The Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media When it comes to fighting the BBC’s corner, is it not and Sport (Mr Jeremy Hunt): Will the right hon. and bizarre, as the right hon. Member for Bath (Mr Foster) learned Lady explain why, if George terrorised Jeremy, made clear, that the BBC has to pay Sky to carry its the settlement for the BBC required it to make 16% channels rather than the other way round? Why is it that efficiency savings compared with 19% cuts across the when someone watches “Frozen Planet”, a BBC production, whole of the rest of Government? on Sky, the BBC has to pay Sky? In the next five years, the BBC will pay £50 million in satellite access fees, more than all the costs that the BBC is planning to take Ms Harman: The Secretary of State could be saying away from local radio and BBC Four combined. Surely that, in the context of deficit reduction, which the that cannot be right. Opposition believe is happening too far and too fast, the settlement could have been even worse for his Mr Foster: Will the right hon. and learned Lady add Department. I do not like to play Tory Cabinet Ministers to what she is saying the simple statistic that 41% of all off one against the other, but the Secretary of State for Sky viewing is of public service broadcasters? International Development secured an increase for his Department. The point is that what is happening in the Ms Harman: Absolutely. The right hon. Gentleman BBC derives from the deal that was done in October. makes a very important point, which the Government Of course, like all organisations, the BBC should be could act on. efficient, but the agreement on the licence fee should be a settlement between the British public and the BBC; Alun Cairns: If that is such a priority, why was the it should not be, or be seen to be, an opportunity for issue not addressed when the right hon. and learned Government intervention in the BBC. That is why there Lady’s party was in government? should always be an open process, based on evidence and involving consultation, particularly with the public, Ms Harman: Perhaps it should have been, but we are who pay the licence fee and receive the service. But that talking about the situation now and in future, especially is not what happened. The licence fee stands till 2017, in light of what has happened in the licence fee settlement, which is after the next election, but I am asking the with which I shall deal in a few moments. Secretary of State to acknowledge today that the way in As well as standing up for the BBC against commercial which that was done was wrong, and that to protect the pressure, the Secretary of State will need to stand up for BBC’s independence it should not happen like that it against some on his own side. Lord Justice Leveson’s again in future. inquiry and Ofcom are now examining media plurality in the wake of the Murdoch scandal. The dominance of Mr Hunt: If the right hon. and learned Lady is so the Murdoch empire, which was so much the root of the against the licence fee settlement, will she confirm that wrongdoing that is now being exposed, would have it is the Labour party’s policy to reopen it, and that she been even more dangerous without the BBC. is against the six-year freeze in the licence fee, which has I do not think we will see James Murdoch repeat his been so welcomed by hard-working families up and attacks on the BBC any time soon, but some who down the country? support the anti-BBC stance that Murdoch set out in his 2009 Edinburgh lecture will see the Leveson proceedings and the Ofcom review as an opportunity to re-launch Ms Harman: The Secretary of State did not listen to their attacks, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes what I said. I said that to protect the independence of and Harlington (John McDonnell) said. Those voices the licence fee and of the BBC, the licence fee deliberation have kept away from the debate today, but we know that should be done with great care, with consultation with the view still lurks among some in the Secretary of the public at its heart, and that it should be based on State’s party and on his Back Benches. If he wants a evidence and be open and transparent. Actually, it is a strong BBC, he will need to stand up to some on his threat to the independence of the BBC to have the own side strongly and publicly. When he does that, Secretary of State locked in a room with the director-general again, he will have our strong support. and to have an imposed settlement. I have highlighted the question of independence. I like to think well of The Secretary of State needs to stand up for the people, so I ask the Secretary of State to say that he will independence of the BBC. At the heart of its independence support a strong, independent BBC. He needs to show is the licence fee, and that is why so much concern has understanding of the concern about how the licence fee been expressed in the House again today about how the was imposed and I hope he will do so. deal on the licence fee was done last October. My hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby talked about it With the frozen licence fee, new financial responsibilities as “Three Days in October—When Jeremy Terrorised and the increase in inflation—the forecast is that it will Mark”. Actually, there was a prequel to that film: be up from 1.6% to 4.5%—the BBC is having to cut “Three Days in October—When George Terrorised back by at least 16%. The BBC faces invidious choices 1143 BBC (Proposed Cuts)1 DECEMBER 2011 BBC (Proposed Cuts) 1144 and hard decisions, which cannot but affect services, Ms Harman: I am arguing not for positive discrimination jobs and all the sectors for which the BBC is the creative but that there should not be discrimination against heart. sportswomen. Women will not be fobbed off by the The cuts to local radio and regional TV have prompted BBC telling them that it will sort out the process for particular concern. I echo hon. Members on both sides next year; the BBC needs to sort it out for this year. of the House who have said that BBC local radio gives a Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab): sense of place in what are sometimes fragmented For as long as we keep talented top athletes such as communities—it is about local identity, because it reports Sheffield’s Jess Ennis off the shortlist, we are sending local sports and events as well as local news. Local and out the wrong message to women who want to compete regional TV offers a ladder of opportunity into the and engage in sport. national media and the outcry against the cuts in local radio is heartfelt and genuine. Ms Harman: Absolutely. The BBC can and should I should like to add my view of the quality of local sort this out. The process for the awards is not written radio and to mention Ed Doolan of BBC West on tablets of stone. There is time to sort this out. The Midlands—he is not from my region and I am not BBC should listen to what is being said by hon. Members trying to get on his programme; he is retired—who and by people all around the country and sort the spoke out for the whole of the west midlands and was as matter out. high a quality of broadcaster as can be found anywhere Finally, may I raise an issue that was mentioned by in the world. my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner)? Will the Secretary of State join me Jesse Norman: I share the right hon. and learned in condemning the really outrageous remarks of BBC Lady’s view about the quality of radio broadcasting in presenter Jeremy Clarkson yesterday on live TV? He the west midlands—BBC Hereford and Worcester is a said that striking public sector employees should be classic example. Does she agree that the Government’s “executed” in front of their families. The BBC has plans to introduce more local television to invigorate apologised for those remarks, but I hope that the Secretary local markets are extremely welcome? of State agrees that Mr Clarkson should do the same.

Ms Harman: We will see what transpires on that. 3.8 pm Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab): The Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media My right hon. and learned Friend mentioned Ed Doolan, and Sport (Mr Jeremy Hunt): I congratulate the hon. a big figure in the west midlands. When Mark Thompson Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell) on securing opened The Mailbox in 2004, he said: this debate, which follows a well-informed and informative “The BBC’s centre of gravity is shifting. The regions of the UK debate in Westminster Hall. I recognise that hon. Members and great cities such as Birmingham are central to our vision of a have been speaking for their constituents and for many new BBC”. people the length and breadth of the country when they So much for the vision of 2004; clearly it is no longer talk about their commitment to BBC local radio. Just with us in 2011. under 10 million people listen to the BBC’s national and local services, in total consuming around 90 million Ms Harman: Let us hope that Mr Thompson is hours of listening every week. That is a third of the reminded of that spirit and that he listens to the words 30 million adults who listen to local radio every week, of my hon. Friend and hon. Members on both sides of including, as the hon. Member for Sefton Central (Bill the House. Esterson) said—I do not think that he is in his place at the moment—a number of people who are disabled, The BBC Trust should respond to the motion and older and from disadvantaged sections of society. We review its proposals. I know that the BBC’s room for have heard of numerous examples across the country of manoeuvre is tight, but like other hon. Members, I urge where BBC local radio has filled a gap that would not it to think again. It should also think again and put have been filled by anything else. In line with what other right, at no extra cost, the men-only shortlist for BBC hon. Members have said, I need to mention the excellent sports personality of the year. Is the BBC really saying work done by BBC Surrey, which I visited recently, that there are no sportswomen, or that sportswomen do including the excellent Nick Wallis breakfast show. not have any personality? Is it any surprise that it has come about given that the panel of people who draw up Before discussing the specific proposals the BBC has the shortlist includes representatives from the magazines made, I want to place this debate in the context of two Nuts and Zoo but not, unsurprisingly, from Grazia and broader issues that have direct relevance to the issues at Marie Claire? This is clearly a matter that the BBC stake. The first is the Government’s broader policy on needs to think about again. local media and the second is the BBC licence fee settlement, which I negotiated last October. Tracey Crouch: I am grateful to the right hon. and Let me start with the broader policy towards local learned Lady for her generosity in giving way. I support media. I am a localist. I have always believed that too everything that she says about the BBC sports personality much power is concentrated at the centre of our country of the year. As a sportswoman and someone who and we should trust local communities with much greater coaches girls on a regular basis, I think that it is important power to control their own destiny. Strong local media that the BBC looks at its overall coverage of women are a vital part of that vision. However, local media in sports. Rather than imposing positive discrimination so this country are not in a healthy state. Our newspaper that women get on to the sports list, we should raise the industry is battling to reinvent itself in the face of profile of women’s sports so that they can be shortlisted massive technological change. Furthermore, our on the basis of merit. independent local radio stations have struggled to be 1145 BBC (Proposed Cuts)1 DECEMBER 2011 BBC (Proposed Cuts) 1146

[Mr Jeremy Hunt] Trust spends the money. Operational and editorial independence is at the heart of the high esteem in which profitable and started to consolidate under national brands, the BBC is held by the public and vital to the role that it which can make them appear less, not more, local. plays in our democracy. Because of its fundamental Almost uniquely among developed countries, we have importance, that independence is enshrined in its charter virtually no local television. I want to put that right. and agreement. People have characterised our local media policy as The hon. Member for Great Grimsby talked about simply about local television, but that is a misrepresentation. the BBC’s culture of “can-do submission” and its saying I want to use the arrival of local television next year, to me, “Yes, sir, no, sir, three bags full, sir.” If only that when we will issue 20 cities with the first local television were the case. He will know that I am probably the only licences, to transform our entire local media landscape Member to have been called a four-letter word that to help operators to develop new business models and, rhymes with his surname by a presenter on the “Today” most importantly, to learn to respond innovatively to programme. Oscar Wilde said: the local communities that they serve in a transformed technological environment. “The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about”. The objective is to increase plurality—a word that we have heard a lot of this year—at a local level in a way The presenter certainly cured that problem for me. that is consistent with the approach laid out by my hon. If it is wrong for the Government to compromise Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns). BBC independence, however, it is equally wrong for the The relaxation of local media ownership rules is the BBC not to listen to, and take heed of, the views first step, and next year’s licences will be the second expressed by hon. Members today. I hope that the BBC step. The arrival of superfast broadband to 90% of the will listen to the passion with which Members have country by 2015—another of my departmental spoken. I hope that it will note the articulacy with responsibilities—will mean that by then nearly everyone which, for example, my hon. Friend the Member for will be able to access local television over the internet. Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski) talked In short, as the BBC responds to the concerns raised about local decision making at Radio Shropshire. My today, which I hope that it will, the Government are hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) doing their best to address the longer-term structural talked about Radio Humberside. My hon. Friend the deficiencies in the local media sector. Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) Hon. Members have mentioned last year’s licence fee talked about Radio Kent, which has the longest listening settlement. I strongly believe that the settlement is fair hours in the country. The hon. Member for Makerfield to the BBC and a good deal for licence fee payers. It is (Yvonne Fovargue)—I do not think she is here—talked the first time that the licence fee has been frozen for six about the importance of rugby league and local sports years, and at a time when nearly all other household coverage. The hon. Member for Sheffield Central (Paul bills are going through the roof, this will help struggling Blomfield) talked about Radio Sheffield and its reach to families and remind people that the BBC is doing its bit, ethnic minorities, as well as its sports coverage. My hon. too, to offer the public better value for money. Friends the Members for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) and for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns) talked about Overall, the agreement requires the BBC to make the important role that the BBC plays for the Welsh efficiency savings of 16%, which, as I said, is less than language. The hon. Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright) the 19% across the rest of government. I put it to the talked about the importance of local identity, as well as House that 16% efficiency savings over six years is not the match reporting of Ali Brownlew. unreasonable: they are considerably lower than in many other parts of the public sector and far below those that The hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge many private sector companies have to make over much (Angela Smith) talked about the BBC’s brilliant natural shorter time scales. The director-general of the BBC history coverage—I think it was the first time that himself said: “criminal penguins” had been mentioned in this House. “Anyone who believes that the BBC could have achieved a She also made an important point about the importance licence fee settlement at any stage and under any government, of the local as well as the regional, which is very much which would have called for lower efficiency targets than other at the heart of the local TV agenda. The hon. Member public bodies were facing, is deluding themselves.” for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith) talked about the fact Both he and the new chairman of the BBC Trust that the BBC is not afraid to rattle feathers. In terms of recognise the fairness of the settlement in challenging local TV coverage, one of the things we need to times. do—[Interruption.] I think the phrase I was looking for was probably “rattle cages”. We want to increase, not I say to the right hon. and learned Member for decrease, the scrutiny of local democracy and local Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman) that the Labour politics, which lies at the heart of many of the concerns party also has responsibilities, and it cannot complain that hon. Members have raised today. The hon. Member about the cuts without also saying whether it would for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger) talked about reopen the licence fee settlement and end the six-year the pitfalls of local radio sharing. I hope that the BBC freeze. To engage in a debate about cuts and not say will think about those lessons. I had not heard that what it would do is irresponsible politics and undermines “Newsnight Scotland” was called “Newsnicht Scotland”, the excellent speeches made by Labour Back Benchers but what the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire today. (Pete Wishart) said about the dangers in the transition The House will understand that, as mentioned, of BBC 2 to HD is something that the BBC would do having negotiated an overall efficiency saving, it is well to listen to, because I know how important that not for the Government to specify how the BBC programme is. 1147 BBC (Proposed Cuts)1 DECEMBER 2011 BBC (Proposed Cuts) 1148

I hope that hon. Members will be reassured by some more amiable light today than in those three days in of the comments that BBC management have made in October, when he must have presented himself as The response to this whole debate and the points raised. The Beast From 10,000 MHz, such was the terror that he director general said to the Public Accounts Committee produced in the BBC. However, he made what I thought that local radio was an “incredibly precious service” were three mistakes in his presentation. I agree with him and that the BBC did not want to preside over its about the desire to stimulate and develop local television, decline. Lord Patten, the new chairman of the BBC but that should not be done at the cost of cutting BBC Trust, described local radio as the glue that holds local local radio, as the current proposals do. I agree that he communities together and a has defended the BBC against 19% cuts, which was the “more trusted way of getting information than anything else”. average among Departments. However, if he works it I know that Lord Patten has been visiting BBC local out, adding the 16% cuts that he has imposed on BBC radio stations recently to learn more about them and to the 3% efficiency savings that were already in train their role. I am sure that he will see that radio is a under the 2008 agreement—and which will continue medium that often generates a passionate response, until 2013—makes 19%. That is in addition to the further especially from listeners. He will see that local radio is a 4% cuts that the BBC is imposing to generate money for unique source of local information, debate and culture. programmes. This is a fairly elementary mistake. He will see that it serves a crucial function in building It is wrong to say that the Government proposed the relationships with and supporting local communities. cuts and that the BBC cannot interfere in how those As such, local radio is rightly valued and treasured by cuts are carried out. It has to stand itself in reserve. If Members of this House, speaking up for their constituents. the cuts become damaging to the BBC and its reputation for quality, it will need a supplementary licence fee 3.17 pm increase to save it from disaster. That is the reserve power that was asked for. Austin Mitchell: With the leave of the House, I would like briefly to reply to what has been an interesting For the rest, what has emerged from the debate is debate. We have heard praise from all parts of the stunningly clear and loud. We are saying to the BBC House for the BBC and its role as a beacon of excellence that local radio should not be cut in the proposed in news, television and all the other services it provides. fashion, that regional television should not be cut in the Some of the praise from Government Members was proposed fashion and, most loudly and clearly of all, praise with faint damns and some of them suggested that the BBC should go away and think again about the various cuts that could be made that were different from scale and timing of these cuts. those proposed in the BBC’s agenda. In particular, we Question put and agreed to. could consider cuts to Clarkson’s salary, which brings Resolved, to mind an interesting proposal for a programme: “Cutting Clarkson: Women Viewers Say How”, which I can That this House calls upon the BBC to reconsider the scale and recommend for BBC 2. timing of its proposed cuts so as better to safeguard BBC local radio, regional television news and programmes, the morale and It is interesting that nobody defended or justified the enthusiasm of its staff, and the quality of BBC programmes full scale of the cuts or the full scale of the impositions generally, all of which have made the BBC the most respected on the licence fee. The Minister presented himself in a public service broadcaster in the world. 1149 1 DECEMBER 2011 Debt Advice and Debt Management 1150

Debt Advice and Debt Management consumer spending has reduced in the last few years, the debt remains, accumulating vast amounts of interest as time goes by. Contrary to what some may think, such 3.21 pm debt is not predominantly due to reckless overspending. Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): I beg to According to figures from the University of Nottingham, move, 50% of debt problems can be attributed simply to changes That this House has considered the matter of debt advice and in individual circumstances, particularly unemployment debt management services. or a drop in wages—something that is not too uncommon It is a special privilege for me to open this debate this in the present grim economic climate. afternoon—a debate called for by Members from across I know that it would be easy to start outlining the the House. Although we may have many differences, reasons why even more people will need help in the when it comes to debt advice and debt management coming years as a result of the Government’s policies, services, we share a real concern for ordinary people, but I believe that the purpose of the debate is to including some of the most vulnerable in our society concentrate on how we can best help the victims. If we who, often through no fault of their own, find themselves are to help people, we need to retain and enhance the in crisis. Many see that crisis deepen because they do right services and ensure that there is appropriate regulation. not know where to turn when they fall victim to Tackling debt head-on can have far-reaching benefits. unscrupulous practices that I am sure we would all One pound spent on debt advice saves £2.98 in future unite in condemning. spending. A report from the Centre for Social Justice, I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend the Member published in October and entitled “Completing the for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel), Chair of revolution: Transforming mental health and tackling the Backbench Business Committee and to the Committee poverty”, estimated that debt advice could save about members for providing us with the time to discuss the £30 million for the national health service, £50 million issues on the Floor of the House today. in legal costs and £220 million in productivity gains, as The Select Committee on Business, Innovation and well as providing other benefits such as debt repayments Skills is currently undertaking an inquiry into this very to creditors. matter, so I believe this debate will add value to the I am proud of the good work that the Labour work being done on this issue, particularly regarding Government did in helping those in debt. Since 2005 the the scandalous actions of a large number of debt financial inclusion fund has done tremendous work, management companies. focusing on the most vulnerable members of society Debt seems to have permeated every part of our and providing free advice for anyone who needs it. I was society in the 21st century. Households are in debt; relieved when, despite the current Government’s initial students are in debt; the Government are in debt; even decision not to maintain the fund, it was announced in premiership football clubs are in debt. Debt seems simply February this year that £27 million would be made like a fact of life for many. Something tells me, however, available so that free face-to-face debt advice could that neither the Chancellor of the Exchequer nor Malcolm continue to be funded during the coming year. Now I Glazer are subject to aggressive cold calling, excessive am concerned about future provision, and especially fees and misleading advertising by debt management about the possibility that local government—which is companies from which many of the most vulnerable also under a considerable financial constraint—will be people in debt suffer. A report commissioned by the required to do more in this regard and Government Consumer Credit Counselling Service found that 6.2 million cash will dry up. people are financially vulnerable—in other words, they The Money Advice Service, set up by the Government have no money left in the bank at the end of the to co-ordinate debt advice, is evidently a new body still month—and many more are on the brink. More startling trying to find its feet, but we desperately need a clarification is the fact that younger Britons are getting into more of its role. For example, if it aims to co-ordinate debt debt earlier in life. More than a million households in advice, does that include fee-charging services? I hope the 18 to 39 age group are already struggling to cope, that the Minister will publish the whole business plan with a further 893,000 at risk. for the service, particularly as I understand that—as Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab): Is was suggested earlier by my hon. Friend the Member my hon. Friend as concerned as me about the cuts to for Ochil and South Perthshire (Gordon Banks)—staff the Money Advice Service just now and how detrimental numbers are to be cut dramatically. they will be to the money advice that can be given to We must also maintain the excellent practice that young people? exists in our constituencies. In my own constituency the Cabin, part of the Stockton district advice and Alex Cunningham: I certainly am, and I am going to information service, provides targeted advice for young deal with the issue later. I understand that a considerable people. It depends on grants to survive, and I was number of this body’s staff are to be cut, which is pleased to learn that the lottery was helping to fund bound to have a tremendous knock-on effect for services them, but that type of funding is extremely limited, and across the piece, not just those for young people. it will run out. Insolvency is also on the increase. Earlier this year, it One young person who was dealt with by the Cabin emerged that 135,000 people were declared insolvent in had approached a fee-charging money management England and Wales in the previous 12 months—the company. According to its assessment, he would be able highest figure since 1960. to pay £100 per month, of which £29.50 was a monthly It should also be emphasised that it is the legacy of administration fee. He tried his best to keep up the debt that is the real concern. There was a huge rise in monthly payments, but knew that he could not really consumer debt from the 1980s until 2007, and although afford them in the first place. He visited the Cabin, 1151 Debt Advice and Debt Management1 DECEMBER 2011 Debt Advice and Debt Management 1152 which arranged a debt relief order for him, basing his comments made by Jeremy Clarkson last night. My monthly contribution on his current circumstances. He right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Camberwell was then able to put his life back on track. and Peckham (Ms Harman) directly asked the Secretary The Cabin’s manager, Janine Browne, is worried about of State to address the issue in his closing remarks, but young people finding their way to the very kind of he failed to do so. Is that in order? organisation that we want them to avoid. She told me: “We find the majority of debt collection agencies are very Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): That is not aggressive and if young people cannot access appropriate advice a point of order. It is for the Secretary of State to decide and support they will try other avenues which may not be effective whether he will comment. The hon. Gentleman’s remarks or necessarily appropriate to their circumstances. Without support have gone on the record, however. they bow to pressure.” What is happening with debt management companies? 3.32 pm In 2010-11, the Citizens Advice service in England and Wales dealt with 3,155 complaints about debt management Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con): It is services, 5% more than in the previous year. The key a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Stockton complaints were about poor advice, poor service, excessive North (Alex Cunningham). I attended the Backbench charging, cold calling, and up-front fees for services Business Committee with him in order to try to secure that did not materialise. Most debt firms that have been this debate, and I am grateful to the Committee for audited have also failed to comply with guidance from enabling us to speak on this important issue. the Office of Fair Trading in several respects, the main Debt is not a new phenomenon, but over recent years problem being misleading advertising that represents personal debt levels have risen sharply and have become their services as being free when they are not. Through unmanageable for many. Total UK personal debt stands up-front fees, the companies take their clients’ cash for at £1.5 trillion, UK adults owe an average of £30,000, themselves first and their creditors second, leaving people and the Office for Budget Responsibility predicts that disheartened by the lack of progress in dealing with total household debt is set to rise from £55,000 to just their debts. What can we do? over £80,000 by the end of this Parliament. My constituency I have a number of questions for the Minister. Free of Chatham and Aylesford has pockets of severe deprivation debt advice is currently widely available and easily accessed. and high levels of personal debt, and the number of How will he protect and promote those services? The new personal insolvencies there stood at 275 in 2009 current system of self-regulation is failing. How will he alone. Those figures give a mere snapshot of the levels enhance it? Will he ban cold-calling canvassing for new of debt we face in the UK, but they serve to highlight business and the upfront fees? Will he introduce tougher the importance of getting the debt advice right for those licensing and a requirement for firms to make clear in need. their fees on any advertising and on initially meeting People can find it difficult to admit that their debts clients? have become unmanageable. Many would rather continue as if there were not a problem with the state of their Gordon Banks: My hon. Friend is giving the Minister finances, struggling to make their monthly payments a Christmas list—and the Minister will recall that this and racking up more debt. Typical symptoms include time last year we were addressing the Postal Services selectively ignoring bills, taking on more credit cards, Bill, which caused much amusement. Does my hon. and turning to store cards to relieve the pressure temporarily. Friend agree that the Minister should pay particular Of course, that just prolongs the delay before the acceptance attention to the powers of the Office of Fair Trading? of a debt problem and worsens the situation in the Where it has evidence of wrongdoing, it must be able to meantime. Long gone are the days when bank managers act quickly to suspend the licences of companies, rather took people aside, as they did with me, and cut up their than cases being dragged out for up to four years in the credit cards, but I think many of us would welcome a courts before the OFT can finally take action. return to the days when banks paid a bit more attention to personal accounts. Alex Cunningham: My hon. Friend steals my final Although many of the individuals seeking debt advice point. He will find out in a few moments that I entirely represent a particularly vulnerable section of society on agree with what he says. What I do know, however, is a low income, it is also the case that unmanageable debt that some Christmas list requests will not be fulfilled is no longer confined to the least well-off. Data from this year because of the levels of debt people are facing. Experian suggest that the biggest increase in personal What work does the Minister have planned with insolvencies in 2010 was among middle-class families, search engines such as Google on finding ways to help who typically have a number of monthly outgoings to people in need find the free services that are available to meet. Equally worrying is the number of young them, rather than the unscrupulous merchants? Will he professionals and middle-income earners who have entered provide the OFT with the power to investigate ruthless insolvency. To return to the point I made earlier about companies and shut them down early, rather than that problems in dealing with debt, it is fair to say that it is sometimes taking more than two years, during which such groups in society who struggle the most to admit time the companies still operate, make a profit and that there is a problem in the first place. charge vulnerable customers? I look forward to the Aside from not wanting to admit to what they see as a Minister telling us what is to be done. failure on their part, those people might be oblivious to the advice and services open to them and instead go on Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab): On a burying their heads in the sand. One fifth of the people point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. In the previous struggling with debt are not sure where to turn for debate, I raised the issue of the disgusting and disgraceful advice, let alone aware of the benefits and drawbacks of 1153 Debt Advice and Debt Management1 DECEMBER 2011 Debt Advice and Debt Management 1154

[Tracey Crouch] Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): Is my hon. Friend aware that the Select Committee on Business, Innovation debt management plans, the meaning of an individual and Skills is currently undertaking an inquiry into this voluntary arrangement or the criteria for debt relief issue? So far, we have heard from several experts that orders. When they decide to do something about their the regulation of debt management companies of the debts, information and impartial advice are key. Finding paid-for variety is not working at all. Like her, I do not someone the right solution and getting them on to a relish more regulation, but I fear that in this area we feasible plan is vital to remedying the problem, not least have no alternative. as the repayment of debts owed is in the interest of not only the debtor, but the creditors they owe. Tracey Crouch: I am aware that the BIS Committee is Unfortunately, customers can find themselves signed looking into this and I hope that its recommendations up to inappropriate repayment plans. Statistics from when it has finished the inquiry will help the Government R3, the insolvency trade body, have revealed that 35% to form an appropriate regulatory structure, because it of individuals on a debt management plan were not is clear that the current structure simply is not good made aware of alternative ways of consolidating their enough. debts and 12% said that they felt pressurised into the Currently, a clear bias exists in favour of pushing arrangement by the company responsible for administering consumers into plans that are likely to yield more in it. Up to 30% of those now declared bankrupt were fees, rather than focusing on paying down their debts previously signed up to a debt management plan. That steadily over time. That is in stark contrast to the advice demonstrates the clear lack of information provided provided by Citizens Advice and the Consumer Credit and in some cases the coercion from some sectors of the Counselling Service, which is free, impartial and in debt management sector, which serves to prolong the some cases anonymous. So the debt management plans misery for the individual and add to their debt burden. are not always in consumers’ best interests. In many cases, they fail because the level of debt built up is Gordon Banks: I just want briefly to outline an issue already too great and the monthly payments are also in my constituency. One of my constituents was making too great. payments through a payment plan and then found the same debt management company acting for the office of Sadly, it is only when those DMPs fall apart that the Accountant in Bankruptcy when they went into customers turn to the free services provided by Citizens bankruptcy. My constituent had no understanding of Advice and the CCCS to help them to pick up the the basis on which that company was dealing with them pieces. As a result, the advisers at those services see and at all. hear some horror stories littered with shoddy advice and spiralling debt, so they are particularly well placed Tracey Crouch: The hon. Gentleman makes a fair to comment on the sector. My local Citizens Advice point. We all see people in our constituencies who have recently had people with a record £3 million-worth of been tied in and there has always been a vested interest unsecured personal debt walk through its doors in a in such programmes. single week. It suffers from dealing with the impact of a dangerous cocktail—several high-cost credit shops on Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): I am sure that all Members the local high street and the emergence of rogue debt will have tales to tell about some of the rogue companies management companies. It has campaigned heavily for that cynically take people on, take their money as an the regulation of both those sectors, which I support up-front fee and also charge them commission, knowing and would welcome. all along that that person will have to take on either an Earlier this year, I tabled an early-day motion calling IVA or bankruptcy. for further regulation of debt management companies and for the Government to introduce a robust statutory Tracey Crouch: As it happens, I was about to tell the regime under powers available in part 5 of the Tribunals, House about an instance of which I have recently Courts and Enforcement Act 2007. That would limit learned. An individual entered an agreement to pay what such companies could charge consumers and would back their debt through a debt management plan. The require them to submit self-funded independent audits plan spanned a total of 14 years and required repayment to a relevant authority. If such companies are found to totalling far more than the original debt. In fact, this have breached protocol, the company’s consumer particular individual would have found it far cheaper to credit licence can be revoked or sanctions brought to declare bankruptcy. The information and advice simply bear. That system relies on having an effective regulator, were not made available to the customer, who was and I am pleased that the recent crackdown on rogue instead trapped in a monthly payment schedule repaying debt management companies by the Office of Fair vast fees. Trading, which has resulted in the worst offenders having In the past, and certainly in that instance, debt their licence stripped from them, is beginning to fulfil management companies have been responsible for exploiting that role. the vulnerable and heavily burdened with debt and it is What we need is a standardised service under which welcome that the Office of Fair Trading has begun to vulnerable consumers looking for advice know exactly crack down on rogue operations. As a Conservative, what they are getting and can rest assured that it will be more regulation is not something I typically welcome, in their best interests. Transparency is key to sanitising but, in tackling rogue DMCs it is clearly necessary. the debt management sector. Regulation and strict sanctions Their fees are not always made abundantly clear and are necessary to rein in the sector, but it is equally vital cost consumers up to £250 million a year. Adding such that more be done to signpost those looking for help to high costs to the burden for those who are already the right services in the first place. The Government over-indebted does not strike me as particularly helpful. have taken welcome steps to improve the access and 1155 Debt Advice and Debt Management1 DECEMBER 2011 Debt Advice and Debt Management 1156 quality of debt advice, for which I commend them. The payday loans—or are cutting back on essential expenditure commitment of an extra £27 million for face-to-face to the point of deprivation. All of us will have visited debt advice to be delivered by Citizens Advice and constituents like the one I visited the other week, who others means that access to impartial advice can be said, “I’ll put the heating on while you’re here, but I’ll assured. That will go some way towards encouraging turn it off when you’ve gone, because I want to save the those in debt to seek help. money.” Some 90% of MPs in the previous Parliament were It is incontrovertible that debts do not come singly, contacted by constituents in financial difficulty. As a and that early intervention when there are debts saves new Member of Parliament representing a constituency money. Government policy is slightly short-sighted in with pockets of deprivation, I know that I will make up removing the majority of debt issues from the scope of part of a similar statistic at the end of this Parliament, legal aid, and in leaving things until the point of eviction. as will many other hon. Members. We are in a position to signpost constituents who are in difficulty to free and Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): Does my impartial services such as those provided by the Money hon. Friend share the concerns of Peter Hemmingfield, Advice Service, Citizens Advice and the CCCS, and to a debt team supervisor in my constituency who works, steer them away from costly alternatives. That is something under the community legal advice contract, with the I will continue to do. Legal Services Commission to provide specialist debt In my opinion, debt and debt management should be advice? He is very concerned that the service that he taken as seriously as the provision of high-cost credit. provides will practically disappear as a result of the As legislators, we have an opportunity to do what is intended legal aid cuts. He says in a letter to me: necessary to control an industry that can, if misused, “A substantial amount of our work is involved in helping many misdirected or mishandled, ruin someone’s life. There clients who have mental and physical health problems, who are are a variety of reasons why people find themselves in aged”— debt and they should not be judged as a consequence. Instead, we should judge those who seek to help them Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. out of debt and we should judge ourselves as legislators Unfortunately, interventions have to be short; I am sure if we fail to do anything about this soon. that the hon. Gentleman is just coming to the end of his. 3.44 pm Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): It is a pleasure Paul Blomfield: You are absolutely right, Mr Deputy to follow the hon. Member for Chatham and Aylesford Speaker; I was just coming to the end. Peter Hemmingfield (Tracey Crouch), who made a thoughtful contribution; talks about people who are unable to manage their I agree with most of what she said. I congratulate my debts alone. Should we not be concerned about the hon. Friend the Member for Stockton North (Alex impact on the most vulnerable? Cunningham) on securing the debate, which is timely, as Christmas is coming up, although that is not traditionally Yvonne Fovargue: I agree with my hon. Friend. As for a time when the advice agencies see people who are in the idea that people can manage by themselves, that is debt; they see them in January, once the debts have not happening at the moment, and as a result of the cut come through. to legal aid, 100,000 of the poorest people will lose The number of people finding their debt unmanageable access to advice. We need to look at where they will go, can only increase; that is beyond doubt. My hon. Friend and how they will be helped in future. mentioned the Financial Inclusion Centre’s recent report, Of course, there is a cost to free debt advice, and it is “Debt and the Generations”, which says that a £50 per estimated at about £150 million a year. The credit month drop in disposable income, due to any one of a industry contributes 3% of that amount. I would like number of factors—a small drop in hours, increased the Minister to investigate further how a levy on the pension contributions, increased child care costs, or a credit industry could be made to work without affecting rise in rent—would result in 3.2 million people who are the business model of companies such as the Consumer just about coping and keeping their head above water Credit Counselling Service, which relies on a “fair shares” no longer being able to pay all their creditors. As has principle to fund its work; I would not like such companies been said, we are not talking about being profligate, and to go because we were looking at a levy on the credit buying designer trainers and large flat-screen TVs; we industry. However, it is not sustainable that the industry are talking about paying the heating bills, paying for should pay just 3% of the £150 million. food, and buying school uniforms. Research from the On the latest figures, Citizens Advice deals with 8,910 Joseph Rowntree Foundation shows that only one person new debt problems each working day. The reason why it in six seeks advice from any source. If we accept that, it deals with that many cases, and why people go to it, is means that a further 500,000 people would seek debt because of brand awareness. Some 97% of people recognise advice if incomes dropped by only £50 a month. Citizens Advice, although they might not always know We need to target the people who are not seeking what it does; they sometimes say, “It tells people where advice, as the research proves that people who receive to go, doesn’t it?”—well, it does not tell people where to advice manage significantly better than those who do go very often. However, people recognise Citizens Advice, not. The Money Advice Trust has done an interesting and I am concerned about the Money Advice Service report called “Facing the squeeze”, which indicates that spending its hard-earned money on building a brand many families are managing at the moment only because that people will recognise. I would question the need to they have low interest rates, are taking on additional build yet another brand. Why not use a trusted brand to sources of credit—some of which, unfortunately, are deliver money advice services on the high street? 1157 Debt Advice and Debt Management1 DECEMBER 2011 Debt Advice and Debt Management 1158

[Yvonne Fovargue] about that. If people get loans on the internet, or from high-street shops or over the phone, that is much more I am pleased that there is more research on why difficult to control. people get into debt, and I do not think that the reasons We should consider a real-time database, because have changed significantly over the years. As I have there is a lot of interesting data that could be gleaned said, they include low income, sudden changes in income, from it. The regulator could very quickly look at companies changes in family circumstances, illness, divorce and so acting illegally as a result of the information on the on. However, the type of credit that people access has database. I recommend, too, the Smith Institute publication changed. One form of credit that has exploded over the that was launched today, which is entitled, “A Nation past five years is payday loans. There is evidence of Living On The Never-Never”. It includes a chapter by people relying on that type of credit when they max out Damon Gibbons on learning from other countries. I their credit card and have been denied other avenues of agree: we are not the US or France, but there are things mainstream credit. They use their credit cards regularly that we can learn, particularly because regulation is to pay their bills. different in different states, so quite a lot of comparisons Only this week I attended a fascinating presentation can be made. facilitated by the Centre for Responsible Credit on the That leads me into the need for debt advice, which international experience, particularly in the US, which should be free, independent and quality marked; should is an interesting place, because different states have be funded in a sustainable way; and should meet the different regulatory regimes, so the way in which they needs of all consumers, including the most vulnerable. work can be compared. The former secretary of the Anyone who is in debt can be vulnerable. One of the securities and banking council who presented the report most difficult cases that I saw involved an accountant, was adamant that the sector needs to be regulated. He who had reached the stage where they could not open said that as an American citizen he is no fan of regulation, an envelope or answer the telephone. They needed the but that regulation needs to be enforced, and the regulator initial face-to-face advice so that someone could talk has to have the power to suspend companies where them through the situation and explain that they were necessary. not alone. They could then be referred to a telephone I urge the Minister to consider the report and its service and deal with things themselves, but the initial conclusions, including limiting the number of roll-overs face-to-face advice had to be there. and a cooling-off period so that people cannot immediately take out another loan when the first one ends, then take out another one to pay off the second one. Evidence Gordon Banks: My hon. Friend makes a forceful from Florida shows that capping the total amount point. When a person is desperate and sitting at that people can take out in any one period—for example, their computer searching for a solution, at that point $500 in a year—improves their ability to pay back they will embrace with open arms any organisation that loan. We asked whether that sent people into the that responds to say that it can solve their problems, hands of illegal lenders, but we were told that the and they will jump into something that they might average amount that people take out in loans in well regret. That is why the face-to-face advice is so Florida is $388, which is quite a bit below the important. $500 limit. People do not max out their loans, which may mean that they do not go anywhere else. In California, Yvonne Fovargue: I absolutely agree. My hon. Friend however, where maximum loans are much lower at the Member for Stockton North had a point when he $250, people take out $249, which is evidence that said that we need to look at Google. When someone they will look elsewhere quite quickly. It is an interesting googles “citizens advice debt advice”, they get the debt report. management companies, not Citizens Advice, because We should also consider setting up a real-time database those companies can afford to pay for the ranking. owned by the regulator, but funded by payday loan Finding debt advice is not like finding a plumber. It is companies, that stores basic data, including the number not possible to go into the pub and say, “I’m in debt. Do of loans and amounts, so that easy referrals for debt you know a good company that can help me?” That just advice can be made. does not happen, because people are ashamed to admit that they are in debt. They go on the internet in the Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): Does the middle of the night or look through telephone books hon. Lady agree that the United States consumer credit because they want the most anonymous way of finding market is rather different from the one in the United help. That is why they can fall prey to dodgy debt Kingdom? She is right to identify the difference between management companies which do not offer the full states, but another key difference is that there is no range of debt solutions. I would probably need another home credit market to speak of. There is a danger that if hour to explain the complexity of the debt solutions we over-regulate on payday lending we may shift that and the need for a coherent system. I urge the Government borrowing into other business models. to bring forward plans to implement a statutory debt management plan. Yvonne Fovargue: I agree, but the disadvantages of Debt management companies sometimes charge up-front the payday loan industry are greater than those in the fees, as has been said, and sometimes take the money home credit market, which is easier to regulate, because before referring customers to not-for-profit providers. we can target it. The home credit market has been here For the average debt of £30,000, the fees are £6,000 on for a long time—we all know the Provvy—and when I average, which means the client takes a further 18 months worked at a CAB, we could see when lenders were going to pay it off and the creditor has to wait a further around an estate, and we could talk to those consumers 18 months. It is not good for either party. 1159 Debt Advice and Debt Management1 DECEMBER 2011 Debt Advice and Debt Management 1160

Often people are unaware of the free alternatives, that efficient debt collection—the threat of ultimate which is why I introduced a ten-minute rule Bill to try to sanction—was important, particularly for small businesses, level the playing field for not-for-profit providers, which at this difficult stage of the economic cycle. My put all their resources into providing advice and none of conversations with those closer to the Minister than I it into advertising. Since I introduced the Bill, I have am, in the Ministry of Justice, suggest that that Department received many more examples from across the country shares that concern. of companies ripping off clients—persuading them to On the other hand, all Members will have heard take out secured loans or paying the creditors only stories from many constituents about debts racked up small amounts, and then going into liquidation, taking because bailiffs’ charges have ended up way in excess of the rest of the money. People were giving them continuous the original fine or charge. BBC’s “Watchdog” has done authority to take the money from their bank account, a great deal on the matter, and if one trawls the internet, which can go on long after the debt should have been one finds many websites that include lots of information paid. However, there is currently no power to suspend and reflect a huge concern about the issue. such companies, even though the Office of Fair Trading knows that there is considerable consumer detriment. It One or two of my constituents have been to see me can take up to two years to revoke a credit licence, about debt, and one who e-mailed me about a case then because there is no limit on the number of appeals, and came to see me about her non-payment of council tax. the short-term loans industry and fee-charging debt She had missed just two £30 payments, and she knew management companies rely on that. For some of them, she had, so she contacted the council to attempt to their business model is to make a profit in two years and make arrangements—admittedly some months after she then go. had missed those payments. She knew that it was her The landscape has completely changed for consumers. fault, but, after having her bailiff changed and trying to Both in the UK and internationally, self-regulation has leave on an answerphone any number of messages to been proven not to work. I realise that there is a one-in, which there was never any reply, her bailiff was changed, one-out policy for regulation, but in this instance I urge somebody new arrived on her doorstep and she was the Minister to look holistically at the sector. There are presented with a bill for £642. so many new challenges and problems that it needs to To many people that might not seem like a huge be treated as a whole new area, rather than as an area amount of money, but for my constituent it was completely that has been around for a long time. It is so different insurmountable: she absolutely could not possibly pay from even five years ago. I believe that we need to that sort of money. We intervened, made arrangements provide the necessary adequate regulations and enforcement, for the local council and things were sorted out, but if however many it takes, to ensure that our vulnerable we had not been there I hate to think where she would consumers are not ripped off by the sharks who are be. The answer is probably in the hands of the sort of profiting from desperation and despair. debt management organisations that have been so well described today. 3.58 pm Another constituent failed to pay a parking ticket, George Hollingbery (Meon Valley) (Con): I congratulate and, after many months of dispute one way or another, the hon. Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) with missed phone calls, missed letters and letters allegedly on securing this important debate and the hon. Member sent from bailiffs, she ended up with a bill for £500. A for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue), whom I followed on further constituent received a bill for £60 which escalated the occasion of our maiden speeches, on her speech. It to £596. There is something plainly disproportionate is a particular pleasure to follow her today as she was so about what happened in those cases. It is important that erudite and well-informed as a consequence of her we have robust debt collection services, because we employment history. cannot allow people to rack up fines knowingly without any intention of paying them, but we have to look at the Debt management and debt advice are important matter of proportionality, and I am worried about it. concerns even in relatively wealthy constituencies, such as mine. The latest report from our consumer advice bureau My local citizens advice bureau has shown me two shows that debt advice is the No. 1 request it receives on more cases that it has handled. It has one client who a daily, weekly and annual basis. I do not want to trouble receives regular letters from a debt collection—bailiffs— the House for long, but I want to raise an issue that company for her son who owes council tax, but he has many hon. Members have raised in the Chamber before. not lived with her for five years, as she has made clear to Questions on this matter have been asked before by the the debt collection company any number of times. She hon. Members for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell), for has given the company her son’s address and phone Ashfield (Gloria De Piero) and for Blaydon (Mr Anderson) number, but the letters keep on coming. She has also and the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson). complained to the local authority, but it does not have The hon. Member for Westminster North (Ms Buck) the power to do anything. has even introduced a private Member’s Bill on the The same bailiffs company persuaded another of my matter. No doubt Mr Deputy Speaker will rule me out constituents to set up a direct debit to pay off arrears of order if the subject is not close enough to the motion that she had run up some time ago, but the firm failed before us, but I believe that subject of bailiffs is important to collect the second payment, even though the direct and germane to this debate, because many of my debit was still set up. The company assured her that the constituents and, I suspect, others rack up debts that direct debit was not set up, but bank records showed they then have to refinance due to the bailiff system. quite the opposite, and it has since charged her penalties This is a complex argument, and there are two distinct for not paying an amount that it was supposed to sides to it. The BBC’s “Inside Out South West” made a collect and had a mandate to collect. That situation programme on debt collectors last month, concluding clearly cannot be allowed to continue. 1161 Debt Advice and Debt Management1 DECEMBER 2011 Debt Advice and Debt Management 1162

[George Hollingbery] without charges becoming hugely disproportionate. It is a fine balancing act, and I do not envy them the task. This is a difficult issue, as I have already said. It is But if companies and taxing authorities do not have based on law, customs and practice from many years, if such schemes available, they could well face serious not many centuries, ago and there is clearly a need for economic difficulties. It is not an easy task, and I can reform. The previous Government did act on the matter, genuinely understand why making progress is difficult. putting on the statute book the Tribunals, Courts and That said, we have had promises and there is an expectation Enforcement Act 2007, to which my hon. Friend the that something will happen. All I ask is that the Ministry Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) of Justice—of course, the Minister who is with us today has referred. She mentioned section 5; my point is about cannot respond on its behalf—provide some certainty section 3. for those in the industry and those who are subjected to Section 3, as I am sure many Members will know, has bailiffs’ visits to ensure that we understand where we are not been enacted, but some progress has been made. going on this issue. There is an online certificated bailiff register, so debtors can check a bailiff’s status; all bailiffs now have to pass 4.6 pm a Criminal Records Bureau check; and minimum training and skills are required for certification. But section 3 Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): It is a pleasure to remains unenacted. It includes measures on when and follow the hon. Member for Meon Valley (George how a bailiff or a High Court enforcement officer can Hollingbery), who made a very intelligent speech about enter a premises, what goods they can seize and sell, and controls on the use of bailiffs that is helpful in the what fees they can charge. context of the overall picture that we are looking at. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton Yvonne Fovargue: I am glad that the hon. Gentleman North (Alex Cunningham) on securing this debate, and mentions visits, because I have had two cases of bailiffs I thank the Backbench Business Committee for allowing visiting a property, one in which they said, “You’ll be us the time for it. The debate is a timely in two ways. taken to prison and the child will be taken into care, and First, as the Chancellor said this week, we face an another in which they threatened to seize a pedigree economic storm. Families and individuals are facing puppy while a child was there. Some of their actions on rising energy prices, higher food prices, and rocketing visits are as bad as their letters. fuel bills. Their incomes are being squeezed, and there is a real risk that more people will move into debt. George Hollingbery: A small trawl of the internet Secondly, we are now in December, with the extra produces reports of any number of similar cases in pressure of Christmas hitting household budgets. We which the circumstances are really quite horrifying. do not want a debt hangover in the new year, with its Vulnerable people standing on a doorstep, often surprised awful consequences. by the visit, can be bamboozled into doing all sorts of things. Indeed, in the parking ticket case that I mentioned, When someone summons up the courage to ask for the lady was so upset by the situation, as was her help with dealing with their debts, they need to get the neighbour, that the neighbour wrote out a cheque at best possible support from people who will help them to that very moment to pay the £592 so that her friend’s clear those debts, not make matters worse. The hon. car would not be taken away. These are unacceptable Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) practices. clearly illustrated the dilemmas and problems, and the kinds of practices that unfortunately happen. At present, On taking office, the coalition said in its agreement: people who try to take responsibility for their debts can “We will provide more protection against aggressive bailiffs find themselves at the mercy of unhelpful, aggressive and unreasonable charging orders, ensure that courts have the and sometimes unscrupulous practices that make dealing power to insist that repossession is always a last resort, and ban orders for sale on unsecured debts of less than £25,000.” with debt an even more unbearable experience. In 2010, the high-cost credit industry lent £5 billion in the UK. On 22 March this year, the hon. Member for Gedling Payday loans alone increased from £1.2 billion in 2009 (Vernon Coaker) asked a question of the Secretary of to £1.9 billion in 2010. The UK now has one of the State for Justice about the timetable for consultation on highest levels of personal debt in the world. In April the implementation of section 3 of the 2007 Act. He 2011, the figure stood at a staggering £1,460 billion. received this reply: At this time, the future of debt advice is uncertain, “The Government have given a commitment to provide more protection against aggressive bailiffs. We have identified options with changes to eligibility for legal aid and the transfer for public consultation on this commitment including the better of responsibility for debt advice to the Money Advice regulation of bailiffs, the powers of bailiffs, their costs and how Service. It is important that the Government and the complaints should be dealt with. We are currently preparing the Money Advice Service confirm the future of the financial paper and intend to publish in spring 2011.”—[Official Report, inclusion fund debt advice services as soon as possible, 22 March 2011; Vol. 525, c. 971W.] not just for next year but for future years. The funding It is not spring 2011—it is early winter 2011—and that from that is part of the overall funding of Citizens consultation is still not with us. Advice services. There will be real risks if the critical I must make it clear that I recognise that this is not an mass of funding to provide advice is destabilised by easy problem to solve. There needs to be a robust further cuts in income at local or national level. mechanism in place to enable those who are owed to The FIF debt advice services are in their sixth year. collect outstanding debts from those who simply refuse They were deliberately located in areas such as Scunthorpe to pay; all reasonable people would agree on that. to meet the needs of communities that have difficulty Ministers are faced with serious difficulty in creating a accessing debt advice. Every year, those advice services scheme that has real teeth, but only as a last resort, have directly helped more than 100,000 people nationally 1163 Debt Advice and Debt Management1 DECEMBER 2011 Debt Advice and Debt Management 1164 to resolve their problems. Regular audits and evaluations (Yvonne Fovargue) has introduced a ten-minute rule have found high levels of customer satisfaction, with Bill to make advertisers signpost free advice. That is services exceeding clients’ expectations and effectively worth careful consideration. reaching their intended target group. Another issue is up-front fees. Debt management The provision of independent debt advice in my companies often front-load their charges, with customers constituency is particularly concerning. The situation is paying several hundred pounds before they receive any in danger of being exacerbated by the changes to legal advice. We need to consider whether up-front fees should aid eligibility and reach. There are real worries about be banned. We should also consider whether cold calling the availability and accessibility of future support. I should be restricted. fear that that is typical of the situation in many parts of The Office of Fair Trading lacks the resources proactively the country. to monitor compliance by debt management companies. If the FIF debt advice services cease, there will probably It has issued formal warnings to 129 firms out of the be no alternative sources of help. By definition, those 172 that it has surveyed recently for compliance. We need services are used by people with very low incomes and to strengthen the regulatory framework. Across the limited means. Their inability to repay substantial amounts House, there is recognition that this is an area in which towards any consumer credit debt means that private the regulatory framework needs to be used. I draw sector debt management services do not see them as a attention to the comments of the hon. Member for profitable client group to serve. Research shows that Chatham and Aylesford, which made that point clear. there is little overlap and duplication between the national telephone advice services and the local FIF services. We can consider better control on firms entering the Clients often use local services on referral from other market, better scrutiny of business models and making local agencies such as jobcentres, landlords and local the regime less reliant on enforcement action against authorities. Many of the people they serve have problems firms that behave badly and more focused on preventing or communication needs that require support to be bad practice in the first place, so that bad firms do not given face to face for it to be effective. get into the market. Consumer credit regulation needs to be strengthened, so that it has a deterrent power. At The quality of advice from many fee-charging debt present, many firms are simply not sufficiently worried management companies is questionable. Their fee structures about action by the Office of Fair Trading to avoid mean that they get much of their income up-front. They unfair practices. are therefore not encouraged to work with their clients to help them manage their affairs and become debt free. The regulator should be able to compel firms to A huge amount of those companies’ budgets is spent on compensate consumers for unfair practices, and there advertising to draw in income from the indebted. That should be swifter enforcement against unfit firms. As contrasts with companies such as the Consumer Credit my hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield said, firms Counselling Service and Payplan that use a “fair share” that the OFT considers unfit to hold a credit licence can model to gain income. The incentive under that model continue to trade and cause consumers harm for many is to work with creditors and the individual to make years as a Jarndyce v. Jarndyce-type labyrinthine process them better able to manage their money. is gone through in the courts. That is not to anybody’s benefit. According to Citizens Advice, the majority of people in difficulty find themselves there due to changes in Interestingly, a large number of lenders in the UK are their life circumstances, such as death, divorce and now US companies that have come here to take advantage redundancy. My hon. Friend the Member for Stockton of the lower level of regulation. Earlier this week I met North, in opening this debate, drew attention to research an organisation called Veritec, which said that the market from the university of Nottingham that underlines that was very attractive to US companies at the moment finding. because of the lack of regulation. Five of the seven largest UK companies in the sector started in the US. It With all its experience, Citizens Advice highlights is therefore right and proper that we look at practice in three principles for taking debt advice and management the US and how it has come to regulate this fast-expanding services forward. First, access to free and independent area of business since the problems in 2000 and 2001, debt and money advice services is vital for those in particularly in the state of Florida. Those problems led financial difficulty. Such services need to be funded in a it to introduce a regulatory framework that appears to sustainable way and should meet the needs of all consumers, have some attractions. including the most vulnerable. Secondly, people in financial difficulties need better options to deal with their debts My hon. Friend has already drawn attention to the so that they are not drawn into using poor-quality debt features of the Florida model: a maximum loan of management firms or taking on high-cost credit as a $500—we could consider the maximum being a percentage coping strategy. Thirdly, the consumer credit regulator of gross monthly income instead, but $500 is Florida’s needs stronger powers and more resources to prevent model—limits on multiple loans, the stopping of any consumer detriment and to act more quickly and decisively roll-over payments, a 24-hour cooling-off period between to deal with problems. I will return to the point about loans and finally, a very important ingredient, the real-time regulation later. information system run by a private company and paid There are other things that need to be looked at for by the credit companies, but accountable to and carefully. We have heard about misleading advertising. owned by the regulator. The database is funded by a Many businesses claim that their services are free transaction fee. when they simply are not. Fees should be clear, understandable and highly visible from the start. At the Damian Hinds: I am pleased to see that although it is same time, free services must be made equally obvious the first of the new month, the hon. Gentleman has not and clear. My hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield taken the opportunity to make his face clean-shaven. 1165 Debt Advice and Debt Management1 DECEMBER 2011 Debt Advice and Debt Management 1166

[Damian Hinds] 4.21 pm Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): I congratulate the hon. Will the hon. Gentleman acknowledge that the Florida Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) on measures apply specifically to payday loans, which do securing this debate and on his excellent contribution, not account for the majority of the credit market or the in which he referred to the Consumer Credit Counselling majority of the debt problems in this country? Service report. The problem is enormous: 6.2 million households are financially vulnerable, of which 3.2 million Nic Dakin: The moustache is having an encore for are already in financial difficulty. today and will be removed tomorrow. There is consensus on both sides of the House that The hon. Gentleman is right that the Florida measures debt advice is a distress purchase. People do not shop apply to payday loans, but I believe that it is worth around. If they hear of somebody who can help them, considering how that model can assist overall. Interestingly, they will grasp at the opportunity. There is an “any port by 2009, 6.8 million loans had been authorised in Florida, in a storm” mentality. I was particularly taken by what and not a single loan was extended beyond the contract the hon. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) period. More than 90% paid back their loan within said on getting to people before they join the 3.2 million 30 days and more than 70% repaid on the contract end who are already struggling, because help can be afforded day. Consumer complaints of mis-selling dropped to them at that stage. significantly, as did overall indebtedness, and not one We have talked about who offers debt advice. Citizens borrower was indebted by more than $500 at any given advice bureaux do a wonderful job, and work with the time. The Florida model may well not be the answer, CCCS and Payplan, which are the two free advice but I ask the Minister to what extent the Government services. The important distinction between pay advice are drawing on practice elsewhere in the world, including companies and free advice companies is that the former in Florida and in France, which has also been mentioned, are funded by creditors through a fair-share system. to help inform how we can move forward. I believe When the debt is paid off, the company that has managed there is cross-party consensus about the need to regulate, to secure the payment receives a commission or and as the hon. Gentleman indicated, it is horses for contribution. That is important. We have heard about courses—the Florida model covers payday lending, but CCCS, which is partnered with Citizens Advice, and the there are other issues to consider. Money Advice Trust, a debt line that will co-ordinate the best debt advice, but the problem, to which several Yvonne Fovargue: The other advantage of the hon. Members have alluded, is that there is not enough independent database owned by the regulator is that if information out there for those desperate people when anyone researches a credit reference agency database, it they can really benefit from the help. does not show who has been on the payday lending Let us look at the pay debt management companies. database. When people move from payday lending to All the money comes from the customer—the person more established forms of credit, as we hope they will, who is in debt. The balance of their interest comes from their credit reference is not affected by the fact that they getting the fees. Under the fair-share system, the interest have had a payday loan, or maybe 10 payday loans. is only in ensuring that the payments are paid back because companies do not benefit unless the debt is Nic Dakin: My hon. Friend makes a significant point. recovered. The devil is in the detail—I can see that the Minister is The structure of these fees is also of concern. Not all nodding. We should learn from practice elsewhere that companies charge an up-front payment, but some will can better assist us. It is clear that practices in some US charge hundreds of pounds before they have even looked states have created unforeseen difficulties, so there is at a case. Regular commission comes from the person something to learn from what works well and what does who is making the payments back, and that just makes not. the problems worse. As I mentioned earlier, what is I should like the Minister to address certain questions recommended further down the line is very often something when he speaks. Will he confirm that the Government that should have been recommended in the first place. recognise the need for sustainable face-to-face debt These companies all favour solutions that make them advice provision for people who get into significant money, so they go for the debt management plan and debt difficulty? Will he confirm that the Government for the individual voluntary arrangements. Very few will ensure that funding is available for that in future? offer debt relief orders, which are a key insolvency tool Will the Minister take steps to eliminate misleading for people with few assets and low incomes. advertising of debt advice and to abolish the practice of Although many Members in this Chamber would debt management companies charging huge up-front argue that there is no place for these pay debt management fees, which results in perverse commercial incentives? companies, it is important that we consider their case Will he recognise that a consensus has been expressed and what they have to offer. The Debt Managers Standards by Members on both sides of the House that debt Association, which is one of the two trade bodies, told advice and debt management needs to be regulated? me that its members, the good companies, offer face-to-face Such regulation should not be compromised by the meetings and professional help. They will also negotiate one-in, one-out rule, however reasonable that aspiration with the debtors. It says that those companies provide is. Regulation is necessary if we are to have better that service because they are being paid. activity. If we do not regulate soon, we will have On the other side of the coin, Consumer Focus, consequences that we would rather not have. which was responding to the Office of Fair Trading Finally, will the Minister confirm that he will learn report into the debt management sector this year, said: from practice elsewhere in the world? I am sure he will “On the basis of the OFT review, fee-charging debt management because he is very much into learning from others. is a market which, at the moment, is largely failing consumers.” 1167 Debt Advice and Debt Management1 DECEMBER 2011 Debt Advice and Debt Management 1168

We have heard about the rogue debt management solution. People’s lives are at stake here. We could not companies and about the number of complaints that be considering a more important issue that is able to are made against them. Interestingly, people do not make a difference to the quality of life of indebted people. necessarily go to the regulator about such companies. They tend to go to the citizens advice bureau because 4.32 pm they see it as their friend on the high street; the place where they can go to get face-to-face advice. Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con): It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for There are examples of companies that hold on to Solihull (Lorely Burt), who has been a long-standing payments and then go into liquidation. Whatever else champion for this issue. I congratulate the hon. Member we do, we must tackle those rogue companies. Several for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) on securing Members today have called for those companies to be this important debate on a subject in which I take a suspended. As soon as we discover that they are particular interest—I supported the ten-minute rule Bill misbehaving, they must be suspended there and then introduced by the hon. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne before they have the time to wreak havoc and do even Fovargue) and have spoken in several connected debates. further damage. This issue is important because 91% of people in As the OFT licenses debt management companies, it financial difficulty feel that with better information and has certain responsibilities. Last year, it launched a advice they would have made different decisions. Members crackdown, issuing warnings to 129 companies, 35 of of Parliament know through their casework of the which threw in the towel straight away. They knew that distress in which individuals find themselves, and in the game was up and they were not going to be able to times of financial difficulties their needs are even more make the sort of money that they wanted to. urgent. These people do not necessarily have the time to Although the OFT has teeth, it could do more to shop around and make informed decisions, and many regulate such companies. It is strapped for money, so it people who get into financial distress do so following a is unable to give the kind of service that it wants to give. significant change in their circumstances, whether it is a In October, DEMSA agreed in principle that the Institute job loss, bereavement, illness or family breakdown. At of Chartered Accountants should undertake monitoring such moments, they are not necessarily in the strongest of new and existing DEMSA members. DEMSA has an position to address the challenges that they face. OFT-approved code of practice, so it is doing its best to I wish to highlight a number of issues. First, I have clear up the industry and to provide a fair service to been a long-standing champion for the improvement of customers. At the end of the day, if a company rips off financial education, and I shall take this opportunity to a customer, then they cannot pay. It is in everyone’s plug my ongoing campaign. We need to equip people of interests to clean up the industry. all ages in this country with the key skills that enable I want to consider the options available. We could them to make these important decisions, and I shall close down debt management companies altogether, continue to press for that at every opportunity. The but that would be illiberal and take away a service that total costs of the decisions that people make are not is of help to many people in the country. Furthermore, necessarily displayed in a format that they understand—in of course, those people would simply go elsewhere. plain, good old-fashioned cash terms. Where would they go? They could go to organisations such as the Consumer Credit Counselling Service. On Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con): With his usual the other hand, however, they might go elsewhere, including modesty, my hon. Friend just briefly mentioned the to a loan shark. If they are to use debt management campaign for financial education in schools, on which companies, therefore, it is important that they have the he has led the way in the House—I think that the protection that we all wish for. all-party group on financial education for young people, which he set up, is the largest in the House. Does he Alternatively, we could work with the debt management agree that financial education is very important to companies. As suggested by the Debt Resolution Forum, tackling the problem in the long run, particularly given we could require other companies to subscribe to the that there are now so many different ways in which DEMSA code of practice and to auditing by the Institute people can purchase things and borrow money? This of Chartered Accountants. My favourite option, however, education is crucial for future generations. would be to strengthen the OFT so that it can use its existing powers to levy a fee on debt management Justin Tomlinson: I thank my hon. Friend for that companies to pay for them to be audited. To ensure that intervention. He has been extremely supportive of our it was not prohibitive for small debt management ongoing campaign. One of the driving forces behind companies, the fee could be related to the number of our desire for compulsory financial education is the fact debts under management at any one time. Consequently, that we live in a challenging, complex world, where the big companies would pay a larger share, and that individual consumers are all too often bombarded by would strengthen the OFT and enable it to do what it unhelpful marketing messages. Equipping consumers to wants to do—ensure that these companies are properly enable them to pick their way through that minefield audited. would make a big difference. The only other alternative is formal regulation, which We are also seeing products becoming available that could be done under existing statutory legislation. I was have complex terms and conditions—again preventing interested in the comments of the hon. Member for consumers from making informed decisions—and for Stourbridge (Margot James) about the report from the which the consequences of defaulting are not clearly set Business, Innovation and Skills Committee, and it would out. The up-front and administration fees are not clearly be helpful to take an intensive look at the matter and shown, and too many consumers are making monthly establish whether regulation could provide a workable payments to such companies without clearing the original 1169 Debt Advice and Debt Management1 DECEMBER 2011 Debt Advice and Debt Management 1170

[Justin Tomlinson] People might also feel the need to make a quick decision because the people to whom they owe the debt for which they turned to them to get help. We have money are chasing them. A debt management company also seen misleading company names and advertisements. might say, “Just say yes on the phone and I’ll sort all People in financial distress are under pressure from the those problems out.” When confronted with a bag of companies to which they owe money. They feel obliged unopened post, people need somebody to help by saying, to make a quick decision, so when companies contact “We’ll sit down with you and get to a position where them to say, “We can sort this out. You just need to say you can make a quick response.” Also, advice sessions yes in this phone call and we’ll get these people off your will always take account of people’s individual back,” it can be very attractive. We have seen excessive circumstances, because every person is different—every amounts of cold calling and dishonest texting. I agree person has different priorities and different amounts of with the request that the hon. Member for Stockton debt—and will help them take the best possible course North (Alex Cunningham) made to ban such practices—I of action for their circumstances. am certainly someone who is sick and tired of receiving I welcome the Government’s commitment to secure unwanted calls and text messages. A number of hon. the £27 million-worth of additional funding for the next Members also referred to Google rankings, whereby year, but we need a long-term commitment, which is people innocently type in “free debt advice” and are what the Money Advice Service is exploring. I urge it to bombarded with the complete opposite. I would recommend continue and find what it is looking for, as this is so that the Minister look at that. important. In these difficult and constrained financial I welcome the OFT’s revised guidelines, which set out times, this is an absolute priority, which I shall continue the standards and expectations of debt management to support. companies, making it clear that they must be transparent I would go further than some other speakers who about the service on offer and the fees charged, to talked about the need to provide access for free and ensure that the advice provided is in the best interests of independent advice. Just as we insist on having a the consumer. It is clear that the Government—especially Government health warning on all packets of cigarettes, the Minister, who has shown a great interest in this I would like to see information published about how to subject—and the OFT are seeking to make a difference. access the free independent advice. That way, people However, I have a number of questions for the Minister, can take a few moments out and contact those who can which I hope he will respond to when he wraps up. assist them. Too often, we have seen some of these debt Some 129 businesses have already been warned, 69 of management companies create spurious charities, whose which have now exited the debt management market. people then provide the “independent advice” when Does he consider that a success? they are, in fact, just subsidiaries of the company that is Secondly, the process can take up to two years. What going after the business in the first place. Some have can be done to speed it up? As the hon. Member for said that they did not want to get rid of this market Makerfield pointed out, not only can those businesses completely, but wanted to be confident that every single inflict huge damage to the most vulnerable consumers consumer has easy access to the free and independent in two years, but for some of them, their whole business advice that we all believe is so important. plan is geared towards being around for only two years Finally, I want to explain how we can make a difference and making as much money in that time as they can. I as individual Members of Parliament. Organisations have spoken to the Consumer Credit Counselling Service, such as Citizens Advice are under a lot of pressure: only which told me that many such companies are also fleet a limited amount of funding is available and only so of foot. As soon as we knock them off in one form, they much time can be given to consumers who are in reappear in another. My final question on the issue is financial distress—effectively in a last-chance saloon—and this: how easy is it to identify some of the online need a quick response. When approached by R3, Citizens operators? If they are on the high street, with nice big Advice and Nationwide, we carried out a training day, shiny signs above their shop doors, it is obviously easy involving me as MP and all the staff in my constituency to identify and tackle them. However, many such companies office. We were trained on how best to deal with people operate online, making it difficult to track them down. in financial distress. We were able to phone up the local Is that stopping the clock ticking in terms of action citizens advice bureau and arrange an emergency being delivered? appointment the following day, where people could All those who have spoken today have promoted benefit from a one-hour session. It provided an opportunity making available free, independent debt advice—which to sit down with the individual in advance and say, I, too, support. I welcome the increased content available “This is what you need to bring to your session tomorrow”. online, but we must remember that a significant number The maximum help possible was provided in that one-hour of the most vulnerable consumers—the people we will session. All too often, consumers turn up at the last see coming into our surgeries—still rely on individually chance saloon without having all the information they tailored, face-to-face or telephone sessions to help. I need, which makes it difficult to give them the practical pay credit to organisations such as Citizens Advice and advice they need. I have been assured by both Citizens the CCCS, which provide fantastic, individually tailored, Advice and the Consumer Credit Counselling Service free advice sessions. Those sessions are essential, because that they will happily provide similar training for all vulnerable consumers, with their individual circumstances, MPs. That shows how we can take this up to make a need somebody with the patience to go through things positive difference. with them. All too often they are people who, through fear of what they are encountering, have not opened 4.42 pm their post. They need someone to sit down with them, Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): I congratulate because online advice relies on people to know their the hon. Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) own situation, which all too often is not the case. and my hon. Friend the Member for Chatham and 1171 Debt Advice and Debt Management1 DECEMBER 2011 Debt Advice and Debt Management 1172

Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) on securing this important of the legal credit market and into the arms of those debate, and I thank the Backbench Business Committee whose idea of a late-payment penalty is a cigarette burn for granting the time. on the forearm. It remains true, however, that some With almost £1.5 trillion of personal debt in the form of usury limit exists both in the European tradition, country and £200 billion of unsecured consumer lending, in countries such as France, Germany and Italy, and in debt can clearly be a problem at all levels of society. In the Anglo-Saxon tradition, in countries such as Australia common with others who have spoken, I am particularly and Canada and—as we heard earlier—many American concerned about the less well-off members of society states. That does not mean that they are all correct and accessing sub-prime and high-cost credit. It is worth we are wrong, but it should at least make us ask, as the reminding ourselves that although to many opinion hon. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) did formers, journalists and others, this is a relatively hidden earlier, what we can learn from abroad. I know that the market; it is not at all a small one. The leader in home Minister and the Government as a whole are keen on credit provision claims to visit one in 20 UK households that idea. A variable cap may well be possible, and I every week. The leader in the rent-to-own sector has know that Bristol academics are considering that as we almost 250 stores and hopes to double that number. speak. I have my own particular hobby horse: I think Payday Loans—as we have heard, a relative newcomer that a limit to the annual interest rate and a separate on the scene—already has something between 1 million one-off introductory or set-up fee, also limited, would and 2 million customers a year. be a successful formula. Most people who look at this issue end up concluding Members have mentioned the way in which debt that we need a three-pronged strategy to deal with it. mounts up as a result of rollovers and the accumulation The first is about education and advice, both before the of behavioural problems, and that too needs to be fact and when people get into trouble; the second is considered. Perhaps most important of all is the need to about smart regulation, including disclosure to make it ensure that debt is affordable by imposing a requirement obvious to people what they are taking on; the third is to that effect on lenders. The hon. Member for Makerfield the provision of alternatives. All three are vital, either mentioned the Centre for Responsible Credit. She and I directly or indirectly, to the provision of debt management attended the launch of a report that laid bare the advice—directly because advice is one prong, and indirectly massive difference between the affordability of credit at because they impact on the necessity to have that advice. the high-cost or sub-prime end of the market and its I shall talk briefly about these three in reverse order. affordability at the mainstream end. Starting with alternatives, hon. Members will not be surprised to hear me mention the importance of credit In some American states there is a requirement for unions. Credit is a fact of life. Although we all occasionally operators to pool data with a central agency. That is meet people who say, “Well, if you haven’t got much specifically in the payday sector—the distinction is money, you shouldn’t borrow”, the fact of the matter is important—but in any case I do not think that there that it happens at every level of society to help people would be any appetite for such an operation in this get through the ups and downs of life. Childbirth and country. It does not accord with our way of doing Christmas can happen to anybody—[Interruption.] I things, and even if it did, there would be huge IT accept that childbirth is unlikely to happen to me. We problems, My God, imagine trying to hook up every need affordable and responsible lenders to operate in sub-prime and high-cost credit provider in this country—not the market. Credit unions provide affordable loans, just in the payday sector—into a database. It would be a promote financial inclusion, get more people to have nightmare, and the fact that the credit reference system bank accounts, which has a big knock-on effect, and seems to work so poorly at present—some people have encourage savings. With savings, people are much less eight, nine or 10 loans by the time they seek help from likely to find themselves getting into debt problems later. the likes of the Consumer Credit Counselling Service—does not bode particularly well. There may be possibilities, I congratulate both the current Government and however. their predecessor on their support for the credit union sector. They have taken different but equally positive approaches. The new legislative reform order will mean John Pugh (Southport) (LD): The hon. Gentleman’s the liberalisation and potential growth of the sector; the speech is teaching me a great deal, but is he implying coalition’s £73 million modernisation fund will help it that debts can be affordable without a usury cap, or that to become self-sustaining over the medium term; there a usury cap is necessary for them to be affordable? is a possibility of its working with the post office network—for instance, introducing “jam jar” budgeting accounts—and there are many other interesting and Damian Hinds: Obviously credit can be affordable exciting opportunities. without a usury cap. It depends on the price that is set. I Many Members have spoken about aspects of regulation. am increasingly of the view that there probably is room This is clearly not the occasion on which to go into for some form of cap, but that it should not be a blunt detail about the regulation of the high-cost and sub-prime and general cap that would have all sorts of unintended credit markets, because we do not have enough time, consequences. As I said a moment ago, I do not believe but I should like to touch on some key points. Other that there would be any appetite in this country for an Members have mentioned the potential for caps on the enormous central database storing credit transactions cost of credit. At times during our debates about this involving every conceivable type of provider and every subject in the Chamber it has seemed that there may be single citizen of the United Kingdom so that loan a simple answer to the problem, but there is not. applications could be compared with earlier ones. A blunt and general cap on the cost of credit would Affordability is now a principle in the OFT guidelines. have few positive results and many negative ones. It There is an argument that lenders should have a would, for example, push a large number of people out general duty of care to make reasonable efforts to 1173 Debt Advice and Debt Management1 DECEMBER 2011 Debt Advice and Debt Management 1174

[Damian Hinds] benefit to the economy. We must accept that face-to-face advice is costly, but, as my hon. Friend the Member for ensure that the loans they provide are affordable to the North Swindon rightly pointed out, it is essential to consumer, and also that the loan does, indeed, get paid have that provision as it is important for some of the down over time. most vulnerable members of society. I am delighted that the Money Advice Service is focusing on how it can Yvonne Fovargue: At present, however, even the most improve productivity—the case load throughput per up-to-date credit reference agency updates only once a person—in order to make face-to-face advice more fortnight. My constituent who took out six payday affordable. loans in a day would not be stopped by that. Most of There is a role for debt management companies. our payday lenders come over from America, where There are hundreds of them and we must not over- they are registered with one agency that regulates only generalise. On the other hand, a considerable number of payday loans as a short-term means of lending. them have got into trouble with the OFT, which suggests there might be a systemic problem in the sector. It is Damian Hinds: That is a perfectly legitimate and worth bearing in mind the circumstances of the customer credible line of argument. The hon. Lady mentioned, that a fee-paying DMC will take on. They are, as has however, that the payday lending market barely existed been said, typically not letter-openers. They often have in this country five years ago. There are many other unrealistic optimism about how the circumstances of high-cost forms of credit, so this market has a remarkable their lives are about to change and turn around and, ability to shapeshift, and targeting just one sector will conversely, they have an enormous myopia about fixing result in the growth of other sectors. Not all the states in today’s problem and today’s bills rather than looking at America have the payday loans regulations the hon. how to lay down long-term foundations. They are, Lady mentioned, but those that do have experienced almost by definition, quite easily swayed by good growth in other areas of lending, such as rent-to-own advertising—usually by either the first ad they see or loans. Somebody always picks up the slack in the market, the last. That all means that they are quite susceptible to therefore. I am not arguing against all regulation, but I the offer of an apparently easy solution whereby somebody am arguing that what appear to be easy and general else will take on the administrative burden and deal solutions are usually ineffective. with the range of creditors on their behalf and they will Education and advice are essential. Some people focus on the smallness of the monthly payments rather would say that the best advice on debt that we could than on how the alleged solution will bring them into give to individuals—or to Governments—is, “Don’t.” long-term financial health. To be a little more nuanced, we could say that capital That means, in turn, that the successful companies in spending—people investing in themselves through investing the sphere tend to be those with the biggest marketing in their education, their home or a car that will help spend, the biggest promises, the longest repayment term them get to work—is a legitimate reason to incur debt, on the loan and therefore the highest conversion rates. whereas current spend is usually to be avoided unless Although they will have a substantial drop-out rate, it people can be confident they will be able to pay the does not matter so much if they have charged up-front money back. In other words, people must ensure that in fees that mean that they have ensured that their cash the ups and downs of life there are not only downs, but flow is safe. I hear from my excellent citizens advice an up will come, too. We might call that a golden role. service in East Hampshire that debt management companies Opposition Members will recognise that term, and they all too often fail to consider the consumer’s overall will also appreciate how important it is to stick to the position, the priority debts that they must pay first and golden rule and not change it part way through. their ability to pay back the loan schedule. My hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) has done amazing work not only in Yvonne Fovargue: The hon. Gentleman might be running the all-party group on financial education for interested in a text that a colleague has just received—the young people but in raising the profile of this issue. I Minister might be interested, too. It is cold calling from agree that young people must be equipped with the a debt management company and says that there is new necessary skills for when they enter adulthood and the legislation that means that debts can be written off. Is marketplace, and I believe the best way to do that is the Minister aware of introducing that new legislation? through maths, because if people understand percentages That is how people get drawn into the debt management and so forth, they can assess all sorts of financial companies. products. If schools and society are doing their job well, people will understand their self-responsibility too, which Damian Hinds: Indeed. Remarkably, the hon. Lady is also very important. might even discover that such texts seem to come from There will always be a need for a backstop solution the Government on occasion. For the avoidance of for when things go wrong and I believe that debt counselling doubt, let me state that they do not. Those are the sorts and advice should be mainly industry-funded. It must of tricks and ploys that are played, with a lot of subtle also be available through all channels—online, telephone suggestions without saying anything. We probably know and face to face. However, we must accept that face-to-face people who are not generally credulous who, from time advice is massively more costly than the other channels. to time, receive such a thing and take it as genuine. The hon. Member for Stockton North cited Citizens I apologise for being almost boring in the extent to Advice cost-benefit analysis figures in respect of debt which I am going to agree with all previous speakers—[HON. advice, but they are slightly exaggerated as they represent MEMBERS: “No!”] You are too kind. There is a remarkable not the return to the Exchequer, but a much broader degree of consensus among Members from all parties. view of cost-benefit analysis taking account of the Cold calling and canvassing for such businesses have no 1175 Debt Advice and Debt Management1 DECEMBER 2011 Debt Advice and Debt Management 1176 place in a responsible marketplace. The front-loading of businesses and I have many friends and colleagues who fees sets apart the true interests of the customer and the work in businesses, and I have not come across a business provider. Although banning it might be excessive, we that makes as much money as Payplan does by doing as need to get rid of the front-loading and ensure that the much good, so I am immensely proud to represent it operator has an incentive to see the individual through and its employees. to financial security. The key question I want to address is the question at Finally, on search marketing and the extent to which the heart of the debt management advice industry: what people are actively searching for debt advice rather than is the right economic model for that industry and should being bombarded with marketing messages, I do not we be willing to intervene as a Government to change think we need to wait for a law or new regulation. There or specify that model? I go along with a view put is only one substantial operator in that market. It is forward by other hon. Members, particularly by those called Google and I am sure it has a corporate social on the Government side, although my Lincolnshire responsibility department. I hope that it will read the colleague the hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) transcript of the debate and take it on itself to ensure also seemed to be of the same view. I am innately—I do that that although it will suffer some diminution in not require the hon. Gentleman to go along with this—an pay-per-click marketing fees, it can put free, respected economic liberal, like the Minister. I start off being and valued debt advice services at the very top of the sceptical of state intervention and I require that people list of the results when people search. demonstrate to me that a market failure is both obvious and substantial. I was therefore very happy, when a number of us met the Minister to discuss these issues a 4.58 pm few months ago, to take his suggestion and look at Nick Boles (Grantham and Stamford) (Con): This whether there was a non-regulatory way of trying to fix has been a fascinating debate and I congratulate the the problem of cowboy companies gouging vulnerable hon. Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) debtors with huge fees up front and failing to fix their and my hon. Friend the Member for Chatham and fundamental, underlying problem. Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) on managing to secure it I was happy to look at whether there were alternative now, in a week when we have learned from the Office for ways of dealing with the problem, and I set up a Budget Responsibility, the Institute for Fiscal Studies meeting with the excellent people who work in what has and others that real disposable incomes for most people become known as the nudge unit at No. 10 Downing in Britain will not rise much in the next few years. street. They are some of the most terrifyingly clever people one could hope to come across, and they are We all know, through our own experiences and those advised by one of the two authors of the original book, of the people we represent, the extent to which unavoidable “Nudge”, who advises the Government on this issue. At costs such as filling one’s car, paying a heating bill or the end of an hour in Portcullis house during which I doing the weekly shop are going up. As a result, I fear fuelled them copiously with coffee because I knew that I that many more people will find that the sums just do would be able to make no other contribution to their not add up at the end of every week or month and that deliberations, they reluctantly concluded—I think they they cannot pay every bill on time. It is particularly were genuinely reluctant—that there was no obvious important therefore that we anticipate now, in the next way of nudging this particular category of consumers few months, the rising demand for debt management in this particular situation. advice and work out how to protect the people who need to call on that advice. Hon. Members have talked about the consumers in question, and about their state of mind and character. Many hon. Members are great experts on aspects of My hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire described this problem. My hon. Friend the Member for East them, and while he was doing so, I realised that he could Hampshire (Damian Hinds) is a great expert on credit have been describing me. There was the tendency to unions, my hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon respond to advertising, and the unwillingness to open (Justin Tomlinson) is a great expert on financial advice letters. Certainly, we Members of Parliament all feel, and the hon. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) when we get personal letters, that we have had enough seems to be a great expert on everything to do with letters in the week. He missed out one vital element that financial understanding. My interest in this subject certainly describes me: the total brain-freeze that seizes comes from my constituency. I am lucky enough to a person whenever they have to consider their personal represent the 750 people who work for Payplan in finances. Last year, on my election to the House, I Grantham, which is an extraordinary business. It is forced myself, for the first time, to draw up a budget for important to understand that it is a business—a very the year, and it is not a process that I intend to repeat valuable business—that does very well at making money. soon. It does so by providing free debt management advice to We can all understand that for a person on a much troubled debtors and taking a fair share of contributions lower income than any of us in the Chamber, and for a from creditors. person whose costs were much more unforgiving than Payplan has demonstrated, along with the Consumer ours, it would be much more difficult to make a purely Credit Counselling Service and a few others, that it is an rational decision. They would be much less likely to ask entirely commercial proposition to offer people advice themselves, “How is it that these people are able to do based on the contributions received from creditors. It all this for free? Where will they send that money in the absolutely is not necessary to charge consumers for that first few months? How quickly will my debts go down, advice in order to build a valuable business and make and will they go down as quickly as they would if I went decent and respectable profits. Payplan is a partner of to another provider?”. It is simply unrealistic to expect the Money Advice Trust and works closely with Citizens consumers of that kind, in that situation, to go through Advice and the National Debtline. I have run small the right process of questioning. 1177 Debt Advice and Debt Management1 DECEMBER 2011 Debt Advice and Debt Management 1178

[Nick Boles] from the repayment in a number of months, that would require such huge expenditure in the Office of Fair Is there a way of making sure that those consumers Trading that I fear it would be unrealistic. are at least fully aware of, and given all the required I have concluded—no doubt the Minister will change information about, the alternatives on offer? People my views yet again—that there is a simpler approach. have talked about Google, and requiring companies We should take that spectacularly successful commercial that charge consumers to mention the free advice systems. model—fair-shares funding by creditors—make it The difficulty is that there is almost no nudge that will compulsory for any debt management company to make overwhelm the advertising that could be funded by the its money in that way. huge fees that companies get. Even Google—a company that I admire greatly, and that is generally very keen to Alex Cunningham: I have a simple question for the be socially responsible—will find it hard, on its own, to hon. Gentleman. Does he really believe that cold calling overwhelm the marketing brilliance of commercial should still be allowed? operations that have a certain ruthlessness in their approach. As a result, I—and, more importantly, the Nick Boles: I do not. I think that cold calling is a nudge unit at No. 10—reluctantly concluded that there terrible idea, but I have good news for the hon. Gentleman: was no nudge available that would do the job. cold calling will die out automatically if all debt As an economic liberal, I then forced myself to go to management companies follow the fair-shares model. the next stage, and ask: is this market failure substantial, There is not sufficient revenue available from the creditors and is it obvious? I think that the answer is yes on both to fund any of those dodgy marketing practices. That is counts. It is substantial because the disparity between why CCCS and Payplan do not indulge in those practices. the information available to the consumer and the To some extent, we are not here to save one commercial information available to the person selling to them is company and not another one, but they do not do so great. There are all sorts of areas where all of us, across because their fair-share payments from the creditors do the House, accept that that is the case, and that regulation not make that possible. It is only because the fee-charging is therefore necessary. companies charge such huge up-front fees to consumers We believe, by and large, that it is important for that they can afford to spend all that money to get them consumers to know up front that cars have certain in in the first place. safety mechanisms in them, because most of us are not The good news is that those bad practices would die sufficiently well versed in checking for ourselves whether out. On the other hand, we would have to something a car’s brakes fulfil the standards. We have myriad else: we could not just require debt management companies building regulations because we do not believe that to operate on that model. We would have to require consumers building, buying or moving into houses have creditors to make it available to all debt management any possibility of second-guessing whether the plumbing companies, because none of us is in the business of system will work, or blow up beneath them. We do the somehow skewing the market towards one or two providers. same with boilers, and with health care: we expect and We would have to require the creditors to offer that to require anybody providing laser eye surgery, or any any company that passed the basic regulatory requirements. other kind of operation, to be subject to specific regulations, I understand that that would be a big step for any because consumers cannot possibly second-guess whether Government. The good news is that the legislation is those products are being provided safely. I would argue already in place. The Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement that the same applies to the consumers, and the product, Act 2007 is already on the statute book. Part 5, which that we are talking about. envisaged setting up regulations for debt management We reached that conclusion a number of years ago advice, has never been activated, because a commencement in relation to other financial services. We decided that order has not been laid. My final suggestion to the it was essential to regulate the fees that could be Minister is that the Government should bite the bullet charged by independent financial advisers offering and lay that commencement order. They should introduce people mortgage, pension or endowment policies and a simple regulation to enable strong, competitive and products, for very similar reasons—we did not think profitable commercial providers of debt management that consumers would have the ability or information to advice to flourish by offering advice funded by fair assess whether fees were fair. Financial products are shares from creditors, thereby ensuring that the interests innately complicated, and we long ago concluded that of some of the most vulnerable in our society at some of consumers needed to be protected from the sharp practices the most worrying times in their life are protected. of some providers. 5.14 pm What should the Government do? In the debate, two approaches have been proposed. The reluctance to regulate Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): This afternoon’s in a crude way is so deeply instilled in Government debate has shown the passion of Members across the Members that they have proposed audits and restrictions Chamber about this important subject. I congratulate on the percentage of fees that can be charged up front, my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton North (Alex on cold calls and on the worst practices of debt management Cunningham) and the hon. Member for Chatham and companies that charge consumer fees. Listening to the Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) on securing the debate through debate—and I have genuinely changed my view slightly the Backbench Business Committee and pay particular during it—I have come to the conclusion that going tribute to my hon. Friends the Members for Makerfield down that route would require enormous expenditure (Yvonne Fovargue) and for Darlington (Mrs Chapman), on regulation and enforcement. If we had to enforce who is not in her place, for doing so much to highlight measures on cold calls and on auditing everyone, as well concerns about debt advice and debt management. They as measures on the exact proportion of the fee taken are all strong advocates for their constituents, dogged 1179 Debt Advice and Debt Management1 DECEMBER 2011 Debt Advice and Debt Management 1180 campaigners and great champions of free debt advisory much on that not only in the House through the all-party services such as Citizens Advice. We must put on the group on financial education for young people, but in record our thanks to them for bringing such important promoting financial education in schools. information before the House. With the OBR revising the level of personal debt in Every life blighted by the spectre of debt is one too the UK dramatically upward, it is little wonder the many. The human and family cost of uncontrollable number of people walking through the doors of citizens debt should not be underestimated. The debate is often advice bureaux across the UK seeking debt advice couched in terms of numbers and regulations, as we remains high. Citizens Advice alone deals with almost have heard this afternoon, but we must not lose sight of 9,000 new debt problems every working day. It is that the fact that debt can often cost relationships, employment free and accessible expert debt advice that can play a and, tragically, lives. key role in unlocking control of the debt. I would like to We come to the House this afternoon at a time of put on the record my thanks to Citizens Advice for the great economic uncertainty, which makes the debate contribution it makes up and down the country in often even more important. Inflation stands at 5% and difficult and challenging circumstances. It deserves the the sustained squeeze on wages has left many credit of the whole House. struggling to pay everyday bills, heat their homes and Without access to free debt advice from organisations buy essentials. With Christmas around the corner, families such as Citizens Advice, however, consumers will often will be under even more pressure as a result of financial seek other less affordable solutions from fee-charging worries. debt management services in order to pay down debt—an Many consumers have got into debt by borrowing via issue that every Member who has spoken this afternoon credit cards, finance deals, overdrafts and unsecured has mentioned. Sadly, there are too many examples of personal loans. In numerous cases, as we have heard this abuse in the sector, and it affects some of the most afternoon, that is not down to reckless spending or vulnerable people in society. people living beyond their means; too often it is due to When the Office of Fair Trading looked at such the harsh reality of rising living costs. A recent survey companies last year, it found more than 90% non- found that such costs alone may force 71% of UK compliance with its own rules, noting that consumers to use savings, credit cards or overdrafts in “the findings from this review shine a spotlight on a market where order to meet the cost of bills—the trap of using debt to poor practices appear to be widespread… it is clear that standards service debt. For others, it is down to a shock in their across this market are not as high as should be the case.” personal lives, such as unemployment, divorce, bereavement There is, therefore, a strong case for Government or ill health, and there is evidence that around half the intervention. people with debt problems are in that predicament Following the Government’s consumer credit and because of some such tragic life event. That shows that personal insolvency review, the Minister committed to the spectre of debt could fall on any of us at any time, as the development of a protocol setting out what was the hon. Member for Grantham and Stamford (Nick expected from a debt management plan, so in his response Boles) explained earlier. will he outline the progress that has been made on that? There are numerous types of debt, from bank loans I welcome the Minister’s commitment to keep the and overdrafts to credit cards and finance agreements, legislative angle open, but he needs to go further now but one of the largest increases in indebtedness is due to and consider a proper legislative response. It is disappointing debt to Government Departments and agencies, which that the Government have dragged their feet slightly on has not been mentioned today. That includes those who the issue, but they could commit today to respond have accrued arrears in council tax, benefit overpayments, properly to the OFT’s report. payments to the Child Support Agency or Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, and even TV licences. Most Calls for regulation in the sector have been echoed by concerning of all is the number of people with high-cost “fair share” debt operators, such as Payplan and CCCS, credit debt who are seeking advice. Debt due to loans which provide free, immediate and ethical debt advice from pay-day and high street lenders has rocketed in the and repayment schemes to more than half a million past 12 months. The Money Advice Trust alone has people every year. They work closely with the organisations seen the number of calls it receives increase from 200 a that are critical to resolving debt issues—the creditors. week to 1,000. That is hardly surprising, given that it is Much of their work comes from Citizens Advice referrals, impossible to watch daytime television without being and there is high demand for debt management plans, swamped by TV adverts offering easy high-cost credit as every week more consumers reach the limit of their on the high street or internet. indebtedness and seek responsible solutions to their financial difficulties. What happens to people when they fall into financial difficulties? Debt advice plays a critical role in helping Based on information that I have received from Payplan, to manage financial difficulties, but often people feel the number of people in that situation increased from that accessing advice is stigmatising. Indeed, many fall about 300,000 at the start of 2010 to more than 560,000 into difficulty because of a lack of financial education. by the end. Like Citizens Advice, it fears that in the We should give a strong commitment to include financial absence of an effective regulatory framework many education as part of the national curriculum in order to vulnerable customers unfortunately receive poor and resolve some of today’s problems tomorrow. An e-petition unsuitable advice from the fee-charging debt management started by Martin Lewis of MoneySavingExpert has companies that they contact for help. received over 100,000 signatures, so I hope that the Such consumers are often charged up-front fees for Backbench Business Committee or the Government services that should be free, with charges not being will find time for a debate. I commend the hon. Member clearly explained before they enter into an agreement. for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) for doing so My hon. Friend the Member for Stockton North gave 1181 Debt Advice and Debt Management1 DECEMBER 2011 Debt Advice and Debt Management 1182

[Ian Murray] and then gave it a short reprieve of just a year. Were it not for the vocal opposition from Citizens Advice and some stark examples of that in his opening speech, and other consumer debt support groups, along with hon. Consumer Focus has also expressed its strong concerns, Friends such as, in particular, my hon. Friend the stating: Member for Makerfield, the Government would have “On the basis of the Office for Fair Trading (OFT) review, pursued that devastating policy on debt advice. The fee-charging debt management is a market which, at the moment, £27 million that has been allocated to the financial is largely failing consumers.” inclusion fund has given the Government a little time to Debt advice does not need to cost, however. The “fair consider how they will continue to provide crucial debt share” models of Payplan and CCCS are effective at advice to the public. We know that, from April next dealing with indebtedness and at getting debt under year, the Money Advice Service will be responsible for control. The Minister should look at enacting section 5 the co-ordination of debt advice provision across the of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 to UK and has submitted funding proposals to the Financial give consumers the statutory protection that they need Services Authority, but it would be helpful if the Minister through consistent industry standards, whereby only could update the House on when and if the funding will reasonable fees are charged and abuses of the system be confirmed. are rooted out. It is vital that the funding of free debt advice is Consumers who are often vulnerable need such regulatory maintained, particularly given the pressure on local protection. In fact, should we work towards a situation government budgets, which could be significantly in which consideration is given to phasing out up-front compounded by the changes to legal aid. Ministry of charges or, even, fees all together? The idea has been Justice figures show that the legal aid budget for debt highlighted in many speeches this afternoon. advice is due to fall by a massive 75% from 2013. Last year, Citizens Advice dealt with 64,000 debt cases funded Consumers need protection from the way fee-charging by legal aid. A 75% cut in future funding would reduce debt management companies advertise. During my that number to just around 15,500. Potentially, tens of preparation for today’s debate, I had the television on in thousands of people will be left without the support the background, and while it was on no fewer than three and advice that they need in their time of need. adverts for debt management companies popped up during the breaks, with reassuring claims to “wipe out It would be remiss for the House to debate debt debts” through “easy solutions” and “one easy monthly advice and management services and not to refer to the payment”. We could be forgiven for thinking that they growing problem of short-term loans and the short-term would solve all our financial problems at one stroke. As loan market, which has been mentioned by hon. Members Members from all parts of the House know, however, on both sides of the House. Over 1.2 million people use that is simply not the case. the pay-day lending market, not out of choice but out of necessity. Families are using doorstep and pay-day The up-front fee and structure of debt payments, lenders who charge exorbitant rates of interest on these whereby the companies take their cut before paying loans, piling on an unmanageable debt burden. It is not creditors, is not clear at all in the advertising. There is appropriate for the Government not to act. Should they also no clear indication that such services can be accessed not step in and regulate these markets in the interests of free. As my hon. Friend the Member for Darlington has the most vulnerable and disadvantaged? My hon. Friend articulated through her ten-minute rule Bill, statutory the Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) has been regulation, over and above the basic licensing and a thorn in the Government’s side in pursuing the high-cost supervisory regime presided over by the OFT, is desirable consumer credit market. In doing that, a regulator in television advertising. could work with industry to ensure realistic reductions Over-indebted vulnerable customers are acting under in exorbitant interest rates and charges. [Interruption.] stressful conditions and without the time or inclination I am delighted that my hon. Friend has obviously made to shop around. There should be adequate protection a direct impression on the Minister. from rogue providers of debt advice, so that huge There are lots of examples of solutions out there. numbers of already indebted customers are prevented That would not, as many fear, involve imposing an from falling into even greater financial difficulties. Indeed, arbitrary interest rate cap that may exclude the very the OFT’s report states that people who need access to short-term credit. Although “advertising is the most significant area of non-compliance, in tackling interest rates is crucial, it is but one strand of particular misrepresenting debt management services as being the many ways in which that sector can be regulated. free when they are not”. There could be upper limits on the amount borrowed or The Government need to do more in this respect to on the number of times an individual can borrow to ensure that consumers are fully informed about the help to prevent multiple loans. There could be grace processes and services available. periods or time restrictions on paying off a loan and My hon. Friend the Member for Stockton North was taking out another in order to prevent “rolling”. A right to be proud of the previous Government’s financial balance of regulation has to be struck to protect vulnerable inclusion fund, which focused millions of pounds of consumers in this competitive marketplace. resources on providing free debt advice to those who Let us not forget to mention illegal loan sharks. I am were most vulnerable and most at risk. It is therefore pleased that the Minister has managed to continue to disappointing that the current Government’s record on find funding for the specialist enforcement teams for helping with consumer debt funding is unclear. In January, the illegal money-lending project introduced by the they announced that funding to the financial inclusion previous Government. Those teams do tremendous work fund would be cut, with the loss of 500 specialist and have raised awareness and understanding of illegal advisers who work primarily through Citizens Advice, lending. 1183 Debt Advice and Debt Management1 DECEMBER 2011 Debt Advice and Debt Management 1184

I pay tribute to many of the speeches that have been to deal with the rising indebtedness of many families made, particularly by my hon. Friend the Member for and individuals across the nation. He feels that we need Stockton North, who spoke passionately about the to do as much as we can in government to deal with the effect of debt on the most vulnerable in our society. The misery that is the legacy of that increase in personal hon. Member for Chatham and Aylesford—I believe indebtedness. that she is also a very useful footballer—pleaded for the In my initial remarks, I will go through each of the banks to be more responsible and noted that 30% of contributions and pick out points and respond to them. those who go to debt management companies go bankrupt; The hon. Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) that is something that we do not want to happen. The asked about the future funding of debt advice. The hon. hon. Member for Meon Valley (George Hollingbery), Members for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) who is not in his place, raised the subject of bailiffs, and for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) also touched on which is incredibly important to bear in mind in the that matter. I know that the funding of debt advisers context of this debate. My hon. Friend the Member for under the financial inclusion fund is of great concern. Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin), who is still sporting his Movember The House will know that my Department has committed moustache—I am not, as it was shaved off by Andrew to continue the funding for this year. Neil this morning on the BBC—expressed strong concerns Money Advice Service has also been clear that it in relation to the provision of free debt advice, of which intends to renew all existing grant agreements for the he has been a strong champion in this Chamber. provision of face-to-face debt advice next year. It is in The hon. Member for Solihull (Lorely Burt) said that the process of securing funding from the Financial more information needs to be available to people when Services Authority for that, so that people in need have they need help. I think that everyone in the Chamber access to good advice. We look forward to that being agrees with that. The hon. Member for North Swindon confirmed by the FSA board over the next few days or also deserves credit for all that he has done on financial weeks. It is considering the business plan put forward education. The hon. Member for East Hampshire (Damian by Money Advice Service. Once it has made its decision, Hinds) raised the importance of credit unions and that business plan will be published. That answers another other lending organisations. I am delighted that he question from the hon. Member for Stockton North. mentioned credit unions, because they have been left The hon. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) out of this debate a bit. made an extremely informed contribution. I would like The hon. Member for Grantham and Stamford explained to pick up on her point about the importance of the the nudge theory in Downing street. I thought that Citizens Advice brand. That is critical to how we address Nudge was the Downing street cat. Nudge is obviously these issues. People in distress, who may be suffering alive and well in the industry. He also said that Payplan from mental health problems, family breakdown or any is in his constituency and does a good job in regulating of the other things that compound the problems of the market in which it operates and in dealing with the debt, often do not know where to turn. As Members debts of many of his constituents and the constituents have said, they can react to the first piece of advertising of other hon. Members. that they see and end up in the wrong place. We need to This has been an important debate. I commend my ensure that everyone knows of the existence of the free hon. Friend the Member for Stockton North for bringing debt advice that is available and knows that that is the subject to the House. Given the economic outlook, where they should go. I believe that, because the Citizens the Government’s political dogma of not admitting that Advice brand is so well known and so trusted, it is the their plan A is not working, and the spectre of higher brand on which we need to build. I am grateful to her unemployment, lower growth and shattered consumer for making that point. confidence, it is unlikely that this issue will improve any My hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire time soon. Millions of families may struggle with severe (Damian Hinds) rightly talked about credit unions. He debt. Access to free and independent debt and money also touched on the research that the university of advice services is vital for those in financial difficulty. Bristol’s personal finance research centre is doing, having Those services need to be funded in a sustainable way been commissioned by the Government to look into and they must meet the needs of all consumers, including, whether a cap on the total cost of credit is the right way most importantly, the most vulnerable. forward. We will await that research before making any further moves in that area. 5.31 pm My hon. Friend the Member for Grantham and Stamford The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, (Nick Boles) made interesting comments about the Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey): This has been nudge unit. I do not know whether there are minutes an excellent debate with contributions from all parts of from that meeting. He also talked about the different the House. I will try to do credit to it in my response. I regulatory approaches that we could adopt. Not only hope that I will be able to reflect on many of the will I think about what he said, but I am very happy to excellent contributions. meet him to discuss it further. The reason this has been such a good debate is that My hon. Friend the Member for Solihull (Lorely Members, from talking to their constituents, know that Burt), in a very effective contribution, praised the OFT this is a huge problem. There is a rising tide of misery for how effective its crackdown has been. She asked for out there. It is incumbent on this House and this it to be given more resources and more teeth, and she Government to respond to that in as many ways as we gave some ideas about how we could obtain those can. I will do my best to do that. For many years in resources. opposition, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State The hon. Member for Meon Valley (George for Business, Innovation and Skills was critical of the Hollingbery), who is no longer in his place, mentioned previous Government because they did not take action bailiffs. I will relay his remarks to my colleagues in the 1185 Debt Advice and Debt Management1 DECEMBER 2011 Debt Advice and Debt Management 1186

[Mr Edward Davey] that are well understood and used by advisers, which will help to ensure consistent, quality responses for Ministry of Justice, because it was clear that the House consumers with similar issues. felt strongly about the matter. The research also suggests that digital self-help should The hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) talked be much more widely available and awareness of it about learning from other countries. The research that increased. People for whom digital services are appropriate is being conducted on the proposal for a cap on the should be encouraged to use them, but of course they total cost of credit that can be charged by high-cost will not be appropriate for some people, and they can be lenders will include a consideration of regulation in encouraged to access existing telephone services, which other countries, including those that have rate caps. He must remain a key option. talked about the idea of a real-time database, and other Above all, face-to-face advice has to be available for colleagues also picked up that subject. I think it is fair service users who have particularly complex debt or for me to inform the House that the company behind who have accessibility problems with other channels. that database, Veritec, has had meetings with officials in Indeed, more face-to-face outreach services need to be my Department, in No. 10 and in the OFT. We are developed, because as we have heard in the debate, considering the matter, but I am not making any many people are unable or unwilling even to come to a commitment now—that would obviously be quite wrong. citizens advice bureau but nevertheless need support. If a decision were taken to regulate the payday market Face-to-face services need to be improved and be more more, the experience in other countries would have to quickly available, although there are already some excellent be considered further. services. That is what is coming out of the research. We We are opening discussions with stakeholders on how hope that the new model, on which I have put an awful we can increase data sharing for the benefit of consumers. lot of emphasis, can be in place for 2013. We will also explore the issue of credit scoring and As well as debt advice, people who fall into financial whether high-cost credit providers should provide data difficulties need access to remedies that work effectively to credit reference agencies. The hon. Member for for both them and their creditors. Before concentrating Makerfield asked about that, so it is important that I on what the Government are doing in relation to debt make that point. management companies, I should like to outline some matters on which we are proposing important action. My hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon On 7 November, I published a consultation on proposals (Justin Tomlinson) again stressed the importance of to reform the application process for bankruptcy. education, and he is absolutely right. We are working Bankruptcy is an appropriate route for some people to with the Money Advice Service and the industry to see deal with their financial difficulties, but it is apparent if consumers can be helped in considering whether a from earlier consultations on proposals to reform how credit product is right for them before they purchase it. debtors petition for their own bankruptcy that people That will play a role. see clear benefits in removing the court from the process The hon. Member for Edinburgh South pressed us on while providing the necessary safeguards. payday loans, as did a number of other colleagues. I can I also want to ensure that the most appropriate route say that we have started intensive discussions with the is provided when bankruptcy is applied for by a third payday loan industry to ensure that future codes of party. That means involving the courts when there is a practice contain the consumer protections that we believe dispute between parties on whether bankruptcy is a are needed to address the concerns that blight the proper outcome. However, when there is essentially no market. I have personally written to the trade associations disagreement—in other words, in the vast majority of highlighting the importance of that work and my concerns cases—I believe a more streamlined route into bankruptcy about specific issues such as continuous authority. I will can be found. The new process will encourage debtors also meet them during the process. Payday loan companies and creditors to resolve their issues when possible before dipping in and out of people’s bank accounts, taking applying for bankruptcy. money set aside for rent and food, is simply not on, and In addition, as promised in the Government’s July we need the codes of practice to reflect that. response to the review, on 17 November I published a I wish to turn in more detail to debt advice. Inevitably, consultation on bankruptcy and its effects on the ability some people will fall into financial difficulties, and of the individual to access a bank account. All hon. when they do, I want them to be empowered to make Members would agree that a bank account is one of the the right decisions for themselves about their finances, most basic requirements of financial inclusion. It allows and to have access to the appropriate debt advice when people to carry out basic financial management tasks in they need it. The Money Advice Service will take forward a simple way and can also save them money, because the co-ordination of debt advice delivery from April 2012, there are often discounts for direct debits. The concern and my Department has provided the necessary funds is that bankrupts are unnecessarily excluded as a to research and develop a new multi-channel debt advice consequence of their bankruptcy. The consultation seeks service across the UK. evidence on that situation and on how best to remedy it. The interim findings of that research have highlighted Sadly, I am very familiar with the problems in the a number of key principles, which the Money Advice debt management market, but I would like to thank Service will take forward in its delivery strategy. Those hon. Members who have raised their concerns and principles include some critical points. For example, added to this debate, particularly regarding the unscrupulous people should know where, when and how to access the behaviour of some fee-charging companies. It is worth right debt advice for them. That relates to the point noting that since the Office of Fair Trading compliance about branding that the hon. Member for Makerfield review in September, a total of 70 businesses have exited mentioned. The Money Advice Service’s research shows the debt management market—70 businesses that were that there should be a standard set of approved tools failing to comply with OFT standards have gone. 1187 Debt Advice and Debt Management1 DECEMBER 2011 Debt Advice and Debt Management 1188

As the Commercial Secretary to the Treasury and I I have rattled through a few of the issues. What I said in July, we believe that more can be done. I am wanted to convey to hon. Members is that we are pleased to report that my officials have opened discussions focused on those and that we are listening both to this with stakeholders from all sides—fee-charging companies, House and to people responding to our consultation to free-to-debtor providers, and creditors and debt advisers—to see what we need to do to improve our current regulatory explore how a debt management protocol might work. regime. That should help to improve standards, guide debtors I am extremely grateful to the House and to the towards better-quality advisers and providers, and leave Backbench Business Committee for allowing this debate. no room for the rogue elements within the industry. I know that a number of Members—the hon. Members Hon. Members asked a range of questions on the for Stockton North, for Scunthorpe, for Makerfield and powers of the OFT in tackling debt advice and my hon. Friend the Member for Chatham and Aylesford— management. It is important to remember that we have helped to precipitate the debate. I hope that it has made a regulation—the OFT has the right to charge debt a major contribution to our thinking and to the thinking management companies for the credit licence, without of those who are part of this process. which they cannot operate. OFT manages that and will soon publish revised guidance for debt management 5.46 pm companies, which we expect early in the new year. Debt Alex Cunningham: I, too, believe that we have had a management companies should comply with the guidance. good and measured debate this afternoon. I am also If they do not, they are in danger of the OFT revoking grateful to the Backbench Business Committee for granting their licence or fining them. We need to consider that us the time to do this and to the many Members—there and to build on it. Indeed, many of the responses to the were quite a few of us—who supported the idea of consultation on whether we should change the regime having this debate. for consumer credit regulation say that the OFT works well. However, people would like it to do more and to Hon. Members have made it very clear that they have have more powers. Those responses were echoed on deep-founded concerns that the people who find themselves both sides of the House during the debate. I obviously in crisis should get the help and support that they need. cannot pre-empt what the Government will say in response It was good to see how much we agreed on, though to the consultation, so I am limited in what I can specify there was a little on which we disagreed as well. today, but I refer hon. Members to the consultation, I am grateful to the Minister for his response to the because it is an important part of the way forward. issues that hon. Members have raised this afternoon; he I shall try to rattle through a few other points that has much to address. He is one Minister who listens and were made on the OFT in the short time that remains. responds positively. He has trailed for us in his response Hon. Members quite rightly talked about how social some things on the future funding of advice services media—Google, Twitter, Facebook and so on—are being and he has also talked about possible changes in the abused by a number of those companies. The OFT OFT’s approach to some of its powers and interventions, consulted on that earlier this year and has revised its which is very welcome. However, the proof will be in the guidance, so it now states: pudding, and we look forward to it coming out of the “Licensees who advertise or sell online or by email must oven. comply with the Electronic Commerce…Directive” I know that the Minister shares our tremendous It also states: concern for the victims of debt and debt management companies. I am pleased that he has taken on board all “Before using internet based and social media marketing, licensees should consider whether they can exercise adequate that has been said today. Perhaps one day he will control over its content…The OFT considers that search engine welcome the end of the fee-charging companies that sponsored links and online messaging forums which limit the have caused so much damage. number of characters are unlikely to be an appropriate means of Many hon. Members have outlined not just the anguish providing…balanced and adequate information.” suffered by people who find themselves deep in debt, That is typical technocratic language to say that the but the tremendous benefits to the individuals, to the OFT will act in this area. My hon. Friend the Member families, to their health and to the economy of appropriate for East Hampshire raised the point about the social advice, action and protection. When the Minister leaves responsibility of Google, and I hope that it listens and the Chamber today, I hope that he will talk to his responds to his remarks. officials, the charities and the other organisations about On cold calling, the OFT’s revised guidance on credit the solutions and that he will remember the strength of brokerage and debt management sets out a number of feeling across the House today. I hope that the debate specific practices relating to cold calling of consumers will spur him on to ensure that we get early action to that it considers unfair or improper business practice. address all the issues that have been raised today. I look forward to seeing what will happen in the future because On advertising, the OFT has taken a market-facing only the Government can deliver the action that we approach in the past few years to tackle bad practice in need. the market. For example, it took well publicised action against firms that sent misleading IVA mailings to Question put and agreed to. customers or used lookalike websites to mislead customers Resolved, into believing that they were charity-based sources of That this House has considered the matter of debt advice and free debt advice. debt management services. 1189 1 DECEMBER 2011 1190

Business without Debate Phenylketonuria (Kuvan) Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (7 DECEMBER) do now adjourn.—(Angela Watkinson.) Ordered, 5.49 pm That at the sitting on Wednesday 7 December, notwithstanding Kwasi Kwarteng (Spelthorne) (Con): I am grateful for the provisions of Standing Order No. 20 (Time for taking private business), the Private Business set down by the Chairman of the opportunity to raise the issue of access to Kuvan for Ways and Means shall be entered upon (whether before, at or sufferers of phenylketonuria. I believe that the most after 4.00 pm), and may then be proceeded with, though opposed, important part of our job in the House is to represent for three hours, after which the Speaker shall interrupt the business.— our constituents as conscientiously as possible. It is also (Mr Heath.) our job to bring forward issues of national interest that, even though they might come to us initially as matters BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (8 DECEMBER) of individual complaint, relate more widely to national concerns. In raising this issue of access to Kuvan, I Ordered, hope to fulfil both these important functions. That at the sitting on Thursday 8 December paragraph (2) of I want to raise this issue tonight for one simple Standing Order No. 31 (Questions on amendments) shall apply to the Motion in the names of Angus Robertson and Mr Elfyn reason: a constituent of mine, Mandy Macedo Box, Llwyd as if the day were an Opposition Day; and proceedings on who lives in Shepperton, has a six-year-old son who the Motion may continue for three hours and shall then lapse if suffers from PKU. Mrs Macedo-Box’s son, Charlie, not previously disposed of.—(Mr Heath.) happens to have a particularly severe form of the illness. PKU is a relatively rare and unknown liver disease. Its sufferers have to restrict all protein-containing food in their diet in order to survive and to avoid damage to both the brain and the nervous system. About one in every 10,000 people has PKU. Sufferers can never eat food that has a high protein content, such as meat, dairy, bread and cakes, while foods containing lower amounts of protein, such as vegetables, can be eaten, but only in small amounts. Only fruit can be eaten safely. To maintain this low-protein diet, sufferers have to work out a complex diet of “exchanges”, which often includes prescription products, such as imitation rice or protein-free bread. As well as this very restrictive diet, sufferers often have to take a number of supplements to help their bodies function normally and to reduce their appetite. I am sure that Members can imagine how restrictive and detrimental to quality of life this can be, especially for children and their families. There is now a drug on the market that has been developed to help with the treatment of mild and moderate cases of PKU. This drug, Kuvan, enables sufferers to double the amount of protein that they can tolerate, which obviously means an increase in the amount of real food that can be ingested. I am sure that you can imagine, Mr Deputy Speaker, the huge improvement in the quality of life that such a drug would bring to many sufferers of PKU. Unfortunately, however, as is often the nature of these things, the drug is not guaranteed to work in Charlie’s case. It has therefore been proposed that Charlie take the drug for a trial period of one month so that doctors can determine whether it can help his condition. The drug company that manufactures Kuvan has offered to make the drug available to Charlie’s local health authority, NHS Surrey, on this trial basis on the understanding that should the trial be successful, NHS Surrey would agree to fund the drug for patients with PKU in Surrey in the future. I understand that similar arrangements have been offered to other primary care trusts. However, the crux of the problem is that in Surrey the local area prescribing committee is simply unwilling to make this undertaking because—it claims— there is “limited evidence of ongoing clinical effectiveness, and lack of cost-effectiveness” of the drug. 1191 Phenylketonuria (Kuvan)1 DECEMBER 2011 Phenylketonuria (Kuvan) 1192

To put it simply, we are now in the absurd position with a copy of the postings on the fedup website that where the drug company will not commit to a trial talk about Charlie’s case. One can feel only strong period unless the PCT can guarantee future funding sympathy for the concerns that my hon. Friend has should the trial be successful, while, on the other hand, raised on behalf of his constituents. As a 12-year-old the PCT will not commit to a trial period because it boy, Charlie wants to be like every other young person cannot guarantee future funding because it is not sure growing up. He does not want to be different from his that the drug will work. While this stand-off continues, cousins. That point comes across clearly from the website. the quality of life for a young boy in my constituency I cannot deal with all the details, but I understand and many other sufferers of PKU continues to be how important it is for children with phenylketonuria to seriously impaired simply because they have no access be treated early and to receive the most effective treatment to a drug that might help to alleviate the symptoms of from the NHS. As my hon. Friend rightly said, the the disease. condition affects around one in 10,000 babies born in To make matters even more frustrating for Charlie England. Those with phenylketonuria—or PKU, as it is and others like him who are desperate for some non-dietary more commonly known—are unable to break down the treatment, we know that Kuvan, although not available amino acid phenylalanine, which builds up in the blood to many PKU sufferers in the UK, is routinely made and, critically, the brain. In most people with the deficiency, available to patients in European countries such as food is not broken down by the enzyme known as France, Germany, Italy and Spain. It simply does not phenylalanine hydroxylase, or PAH—I will stick with seem right that, despite the many miracles that we all the initials from now on, if I may. In people with PKU, know the NHS performs every day, British patients the PAH enzyme function is impaired because of a should be disadvantaged in that way, compared with genetic mutation. As a result, phenylalanine levels in their peers on the continent. It is in that context that I the blood and other tissues rise, which can lead to brain feel that a solution to the impasse must be found. Why damage and, in some cases, learning difficulties. can British sufferers of this disease not access the drug Without treatment early in life, the outlook for those on the national health service? An answer might lie in with PKU is very poor. Most people will develop severe the fact that the National Institute for Health and learning disabilities and will require constant care. With Clinical Excellence has not yet positively approved the treatment, however, the outlook can be incredibly good. drug. If that were to happen, some progress may well Since 1969, the NHS has screened newborn babies for be made. PKU, so early detection is commonplace in this country. Finally, I find it quite striking that in an area where Following a low-protein diet and taking regular dietary we are supposed to be supporting a great British business— supplements containing amino acids helps keep the pharmaceuticals—we should not be able to provide phenylalanine levels low, avoiding the terrible damage funding for the drug, thereby restricting the opportunities that the condition can inflict on a person. Specially of many thousands of people in this country. formulated low-protein foods and nutritional supplements I am grateful to the House and to you, Mr Deputy are available on the NHS, and GPs are able to prescribe Speaker, for the patience that you have shown in this them to treat patients with PKU. As with any condition debate—and, in fact, for your consideration in granting that requires constant management and attention from— it. This may seem a small issue, but it has a massive bearing on the quality of life of those affected—both 6pm the sufferers and their families. It is quite right that it Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 9(3)). should be aired in the highest possible arena, which is what this House represents. I urge the Government to Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do all they can to find a solution to this grave dilemma. do now adjourn.—(Angela Watkinson.)

Paul Burstow: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I was 5.56 pm not prepared for that procedural intervention. The Minister of State, Department of Health (Paul As I was saying, any condition that requires constant Burstow): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member management and attention from birth can be an incredibly for Spelthorne (Kwasi Kwarteng) on securing this debate stressful one, as my hon. Friend captured in his remarks. and on setting out so clearly, on behalf of his constituents, I appreciate how difficult it must be for children and the concerns that they have brought to him and the their parents or carers to maintain the protein-free diet concerns that he, in turn, wanted to ensure the House necessary for the majority of patients with PKU. From properly addressed this evening. He is absolutely right: what I understand about the condition, children with that is exactly what Adjournment debates are for. They PKU cannot eat many of the foods that we all take for are an opportunity for constituents’ concerns to be granted. Some of the pleasures of life are not available raised in this House, and I pay tribute to him for to them, which makes simple day-to-day activities like doing so. going to school difficult. Again, I very much understand My hon. Friend talked about the case of Charlie and the desire to see a child living a life that is not different the situation facing him and his family. He will understand from that of their peers. That point was powerfully that the necessity for patient confidentiality meant that made, as I said, on the fedup website when I looked at it until I heard his speech, I was not aware of that specific today. case from the briefing that I had to prepare for this The Government recognise the importance of debate. However, I hope that I can give him a response maintaining this diet. That is why a range of food and that will none the less address a number of the important nutritional supplements are provided by prescription points that he raised. As part of the preparation in on the NHS. The committee responsible for approving advance of this debate, my private office supplied me these products definitely understands the importance of 1193 Phenylketonuria (Kuvan)1 DECEMBER 2011 Phenylketonuria (Kuvan) 1194

[Paul Burstow] Under the NHS constitution, patients have the right to expect local decisions about the funding of medicines providing a range of products for patients and takes and treatments to be made rationally, following proper special care to make sure that these products are approved consideration of the evidence. To help PCTs make those for NHS use. difficult decisions, the Department has issued a set of This debate is primarily about the role of a new drug, core principles. PCTs are required to have clear and Kuvan, and how it can change individuals’ lives if it is transparent arrangements for local decision making on made available because of how it can deal with the the funding of drugs, and for consideration of exceptional problem of phenylalanine levels in children and adults funding requests. with PKU. Kuvan is a synthetic form of a vitamin that My hon. Friend asked how we could address these helps PAH enzymes work better. However—here we difficult issues in the future. We want to improve access, come to what I fear is the important point—the drug is on the NHS, to innovative medicines that are effective, not believed to be universally effective. It works only in particularly those that can allow a fellow citizen to lead some cases for some types of PKU, depending on which as normal a life as possible. We will do that by reforming precise PAH gene mutation is present. As I understand the way in which companies are paid for NHS medicines, it, only about four in 10 patients are likely to benefit adopting to a new value-based pricing system when the from it. As my hon. Friend said, the benefit is determined current pharmaceutical price regulation scheme expires only after a month, and through a blood test. Kuvan is at the end of 2013. That will bring the price that the more likely to benefit those with the milder forms of NHS pays more into line with the value that a new PKU, and most people would still need to continue with medicine delivers in terms of the benefits that doctors their dietary treatment. The drug might enable them to and patients gain from a drug. The aim of the new eat a few grams of protein, but would not allow a pricing system is to create a system that has the capability complete reversion to a conventional lifestyle and diet. to include the broadest possible range of new medicines. Let me deal with the role of the primary care trust in When possible, we want to avoid creating different all of this. PCTs are legally obliged to provide funding processes for different treatments. so that drugs positively appraised by NICE are available I understand that some people with very rare on the NHS. This includes drugs with European orphan conditions—including, I suspect, the one that we are designation. In the absence of NICE guidance—for discussing—who want to gain access to a particular instance, where NICE has not appraised a treatment or treatment fear that their cases will not be considered is in the process of doing so, or where NICE has not fairly under the new system because they are among a recommended a treatment for use on the NHS—the tiny minority who would benefit in such circumstances. PCTs are responsible for making funding decisions We will keep an open mind, and if, as we continue to based on the needs of their populations. develop our plans to implement value-based pricing, it I understand that the Surrey NHS area prescribing becomes clear that some treatments for the very rarest committee has considered Kuvan and has taken a decision conditions would be best dealt with through separate on the basis of the evidence not to make it available in arrangements, we will consider those options. Surrey.The panel, which included GPs and other clinicians, I well understand the need for this matter to be raised considered the available clinical evidence, together with in Parliament. I will ensure that the points that have supporting information from parents of children diagnosed been made today are taken up with the PCT as it gives with PKU. After full and careful consideration—my further consideration to the case being advanced by the hon. Friend has quoted this—it concluded that there foundation trust and by the family. I assure my hon. was insufficient evidence to support the use of Kuvan at Friend that the Government’s priority is to ensure that this time. NHS patients, including those living with phenylketonuria, Doctors can request treatments that are not usually are able to gain access to the most appropriate treatments funded on behalf of their patients through an individual in order to manage their conditions. funding request, if they feel that there are exceptional My hon. Friend has raised an important point about the clinical circumstances. I understand that a further request need to ensure that the quality of life is properly respected, has been made by the Great Ormond Street Hospital and that, in the very rare cases of phenylketonuria, that for Children NHS Foundation Trust. I believe it has led respect is reflected in the provision of drugs that allow a to further correspondence between the PCT and the child to enjoy a wider range of meals and, as a result, trust. At the moment, the foundation trust has not grow up as a normal child with a normal life. I hope supplied all the information necessary for the application that he feels heartened by the debate, and that, as a to be properly considered. I hope that that information hard-working constituency Member of Parliament, he will be provided and that consideration will be given to will be emboldened to pursue this matter further. those representations by the foundation trust. I shall Question put and agreed to. also ensure that the report of today’s debate is made available to the primary care trust, so that its members can see for themselves the representations made by my 6.8 pm hon. Friend. House adjourned. 337WH 1 DECEMBER 2011 Transport Disruption (Winter 2010) 338WH

that increased spending on winter resilience by highways Westminster Hall authorities could be cost-effective. Since then, the Office for National Statistics has estimated that the adverse Thursday 1 December 2011 weather last December knocked 0.5% off UK GDP during the third quarter of 2010-11, which reduced growth from 0.6% to 0.1% and cost about £1.6 billion, [NADINE DORRIES in the Chair] and the Secretary of State for Transport told us that transport disruption cost the nation £280 million per Transport Disruption (Winter 2010) day. [Relevant documents: Fifth Report from the Transport Those are very big figures and they show why there Committee, “Keeping the UK Moving: The Impact on are sound economic reasons for addressing the situation, Transport of the Winter Weather in December 2010”, as well as the inconvenience that transport breakdown HC 794, and the Government Response, Sixth Special in bad weather causes to daily life for most people. Report, HC 1467.] A day at home because of heavy snow might be seen by Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting some as fun, but the implications for businesses can be be now adjourned.—(Norman Baker.) substantial, and many people can be left isolated by bad weather when they cannot get out, cannot get basic provisions and cannot receive their usual visits from 2.30 pm friends and relations. In addition to those implications, Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): there are further social consequences: schools can be A year ago today, the UK was in the midst of a very shut, and vulnerable people can be trapped in their cold spell of weather. North-easterly winds had swept homes, with higher heating bills as a result. Preparing snow in from the Arctic and it fell throughout the our transport systems for winter is therefore absolutely country, adding to substantial falls during the last week essential. of November. The temperature barely rose above freezing One of the issues that our report examined was the and was below minus 10° C all day in parts of Scotland. importance of long-range weather forecasting. Although There were two periods of intense cold weather last it is true to say that short-term forecasts are generally winter, from 30 November to 3 December, and from accurate, long-term forecasting is poor—indeed, it is 16 to 22 December. The temperature in December 2010 discredited, particularly since the Met Office made its was 5° C below the average for the month, and there “barbecue summer” predictions a few years ago. The were nine significant snow “events” bringing the most previous Secretary of State for Transport, the right hon. widespread snow in the UK for 30 years. Winter 2010-11 Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr Hammond), was the third cold winter in succession. We are still suggested that for an investment of £10 million, the Met waiting to find out whether this winter will be another Office could achieve a big step forward in forecasting severe one or whether there will be a return to the capability. We took up that suggestion and recommended milder conditions we had become used to. that that investment be made. The Government’s reply The severe weather last December affected aviation to our report makes no specific comment on that issue, severely. Heathrow airport was closed shortly before so I ask the Minister to set out the Government’s Christmas and other airports were also disrupted, as position on that today. Do they agree that there should were our trains, particularly in Kent and Sussex. Eurostar be further investment in the Met Office or other appropriate services were disrupted, with long queues in the cold organisations? If so, what do they think that investment outside St Pancras station as people tried to get to Paris should be and when will it be made? The Department or Brussels just before Christmas. There were also problems for Transport told us that it is working across Government on major and local roads, as well as complaints about to review evidence on winter weather patterns and to pavements and minor roads being left under snow and test whether current levels of investment in winter resilience ice for weeks at a time. The Transport Committee’s are optimised. Again, we would be interested to know inquiry looked at all of these issues and we published the outcome of that work. our report in May. I am pleased to have the opportunity Aviation bore the brunt of the transport disruption to debate the Government’s reply to our report just as last winter. Gatwick airport closed for 46 hours from winter 2011-12 begins. 1 to 3 December, and Heathrow airport closed from First, I pay tribute to David Quarmby, who led a 18 to 20 December after 7 cm of snow fell in one hour. small review team during 2010 that looked at winter At the height of the disruption, 10,000 passengers spent resilience in the transport sector. He also audited how the night in the Heathrow terminals. Not only were the transport coped with the first spell of adverse weather a airports closed for a time and flights postponed or year ago. His analysis has been extremely important: it cancelled, but there was also the very important question was comprehensive, and his recommendations were of how passengers’ needs were dealt with when that accepted by the Government. Can the Minister confirm situation arose. that all of the Quarmby recommendations have now I accept that heavy snow will close any airport in the been implemented in full? If we have further transport world for a short period. I also accept that Heathrow is disruption this winter, will he commission an independent in a particularly difficult position because it operates at review, so that we can continue to learn lessons and virtually full capacity; other airports can recover from improve transport’s resilience to bad weather? disruption more quickly because they are neither as Bad weather causes disruption to businesses and busy nor as full. However, there were problems with individuals and affects normal activities. Mr Quarmby how the disruption was handled, which involved the tried to estimate how much the transport disruption airlines as well as the airports. There was ambiguity due to bad weather last winter cost the UK, and concluded about whether or not the airport was closed. Passengers 339WH Transport Disruption (Winter 2010)1 DECEMBER 2011 Transport Disruption (Winter 2010) 340WH

[Mrs Louise Ellman] develops. I am also pleased that, in the draft Bill, the CAA’s primary duty will be to passengers, but we need did not know whether to come to the airport or stay at to see how that would operate in practice. home, and far too many ended up staying for long A problem with airport recovery after disruption is in periods in terminals, worried that they might miss a managing flight landings and departures. The previous flight if they left. Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Runnymede BAA was criticised for not implementing its snow and Weybridge, appeared before our Committee and plan, for inadequate communications with passengers was asked a lot of questions about this. He suggested and airlines and for not having adequate snow and that airports might be enabled to impose emergency ice-clearing equipment. To BAA’s credit, it appointed timetables, with oversight by the Civil Aviation Authority. David Begg to review its winter resilience plans and The Select Committee thought that that was a good their operation. He produced a strong report and did idea, but the Government no longer seem as keen as not pull any punches. He recommended that Heathrow they were to go ahead with it. I would be interested to should adopt hear the Minister’s views and the Government’s current “an improved resilience target that the airport never closes as a thinking on that proposal. result of circumstances beyond its control.” Gatwick airport brought to our attention another He also recommended improvements to planning issue: the importance of maintaining surface access to and communications. BAA accepted his report’s airports to keep them running. Although its runway recommendations, which was a very positive move. was clear, staff and passengers struggled to reach Gatwick airport by rail or road. A more co-ordinated approach We must recognise that, as our hub airport, Heathrow to managing the response to adverse weather is needed plays a crucial role in maintaining the UK’s competitiveness. to ensure that such problems are avoided. The Committee Is the Minister satisfied that the changes made at Heathrow felt that, if necessary, the Government should step in to will make the airport better prepared for winter weather resolve conflicting priorities, but that that should not be this year? That question relates to its dealing with the necessary and the matter should be dealt with locally. initial impact of bad weather, the process and the speed Whether it is passengers or staff who are affected, not of recovery from disruption, and how passengers’ needs being able to get airports by road can be a serious are met during that time. impediment. The Committee recommended that the Secretary of There were also problems with rail services last winter, State for Transport should designate a senior official to particularly south of the Thames where the third-rail have oversight of the snow plans of major airports. We system was again unable to cope with the snow and ice. proposed that idea because we thought that Parliament Network Rail was caught out by the early start to the and the public needed reassurance that the plans put winter, with its snow-clearing trains still in depots being together by the airports were adequate, but the Government converted from their autumn leaf-clearing role. That rejected that recommendation in its response. I would mistake was not repeated this year and Network Rail like the Minister to tell us why today. has invested £40 million in new snow equipment. A One of the ironies was that the very severe airport conference of network operators in the south-east was disruption was not reflected in airport performance held in November to discuss what further action was measures—indeed, they suggested that business had taken, and there was a number of detailed discussions continued as normal. The Committee recommended about actions taken by various operators. Is the Minister that airport regulation should include a measure to monitoring the outcome of that conference and staying assess air travel disruption. I am pleased that a draft abreast of the practical, preventive steps being taken by airport regulation Bill, the Civil Aviation Bill, has now Network Rail and the train operating companies to deal been published; the Transport Committee will start to with the problems? scrutinise it next week and will look at the proposed The Chancellor announced in his autumn statement new regulatory regime. We are told that winter resilience that there would be further investment in winter resilience will be reflected in the Bill, and I would like to hear equipment, but we do not have any detail about exactly more from the Minister, hopefully today, about how what that means. Can the Minister explain what the that will be achieved. The Committee will pursue the resilience equipment is, how much will be spent and issue in more detail in its pre-legislative scrutiny. when, and what will happen to make a real difference? Airports and airlines must do more to look after It has been accepted, I think, that the long-term answer passengers. It is striking that there seems to be no to the specific problems in the south-east is the replacement organisation that represents air passengers’ welfare. There of the third-rail system with a safer, more robust form was an organisation that dealt with air passengers’ of electrification. It will be expensive, which is perhaps needs, but the Government have abandoned their own why it has not yet been done, but surely it could be proposal to move that responsibility to Passenger Focus phased in, even if over a longer period. I understand and it is unclear exactly who is responsible for considering that options are being studied, and I would like to hear passengers’ needs. The responsibility does not lie solely more from the Minister about what is happening with with airports, although they do have very serious the programme for the electrification of the third-rail responsibilities; airlines, too, should help passengers system. during periods of disruption. Our Committee recommended Passengers across all modes of transport were let that airports should do more to look after passengers at down by inadequate information. At times of severe times of disruption, but should be able to reclaim the disruption transport delays and breakdowns are inevitable, cost of doing that from the airlines. I am pleased that but information systems must be ready to inform passengers the Civil Aviation Authority is taking that proposal and potential passengers about the situation. Although forward and I look forward to seeing how the idea some breakdowns might occur without notice, others 341WH Transport Disruption (Winter 2010)1 DECEMBER 2011 Transport Disruption (Winter 2010) 342WH are known about and indeed can be predicted. Online that matter so much to individuals. In particular, it is timetables were not updated quickly enough to take vital to maintain access to facilities such as schools and cancellations into account, and many people ended up health centres. buying tickets for non-existent trains. Real-time information for passengers on trains and in stations was very poor. Voluntary effort has a role to play.Some local authorities When we raised the issue with industry representatives have been involved in organising it, some have taken in the Select Committee we were told that there were steps such as providing grit bins at the ends of roads numerous information systems across the railway, that and some are considering what else they can do locally some of them were very old, and that pulling them this year. Our Committee asked that the Government together was one of the legacies of privatisation. We did make available online more practical information about not accept that argument: many years have passed since what people can do voluntarily, such as helping clear privatisation, so it cannot be used as an excuse not to pavements outside their own premises, after the publication have updated systems and not to deal with problems. last year of the snow code, which provided reassurances about potential legal liabilities. Local problems such as We agree with Passenger Focus that a culture of side roads and access to local homes need addressing. looking after passengers when things go wrong is not Do the Government have any comments on that? I yet second nature across the rail industry. That needs to know that local authorities are considering it. Given change. The Office of Rail Regulation has published their financial problems, they are restricted in what they proposals to clarify responsibilities for the provision of can do, but it is important and should not be neglected. information, but in a very recent publication it is unclear whether ORR is talking about a consultation—if so, I Our report reflected our concern about how many would like to know how long it will take—or about drivers appear unprepared for winter weather. According making specific proposals. I am interested to hear what to an AA survey, nearly half are unprepared. Has the knowledge the Minister has of that and what he can do Department done anything to encourage drivers to be to progress it. The rail industry’s national task force has better prepared this year? Last year, drivers were warned also been working on improving real-time information that they should make only essential journeys in bad provision ahead of this winter, so is the Minister confident weather. It is often difficult to define what essential that we are in a better situation than we were last year? journeys are. Many people think that their journey is essential if they want to go out, but there is no further There was major disruption on some motorways, but clarity about what that means. We thought that the traffic on the UK’s main roads was generally kept police and the Department should develop a set of moving during the bad weather. Credit should go to the travel warnings to provide clearer guidance to the public Highways Agency and the local highways authorities, about what sorts of journey they should not undertake which rose to the challenge and worked hard to keep during particular types of bad weather. The Highways roads open, in co-ordination with the agency. Agency agreed to consider that recommendation. It During the year before last, there was a great deal of would be helpful to know whether any progress has concern about problems in providing sufficient salt to been made. put on the roads to prevent ice from forming. As a result of David Quarmby’s review, many changes were At our inquiry, we heard from the Freight Transport made. The arrangements had considerable success Association, which asked for specific snow and ice and resulted in great improvement. We felt that the warnings for HGVs, similar to current warnings about Government’s strategic salt arrangements worked well, high winds. I understand that that recommendation has generally speaking, although some local authorities did been accepted. Will the Minister confirm that? If that complain about transparency, distribution and the cost has been done, it will be helpful. Parts of the major road of the salt. However, improvement was made. Had last network, such as certain hills or junctions in exposed year’s bad weather continued for longer than it did, areas, are particularly prone to disruption in severe further issues might have been raised about the adequacy winter weather. We suggested that the Highways Agency of salt provision. What are the Minister’s views on the should deploy its traffic officers in such areas during salt situation for the current year and next year? Does bad weather to help clear blockages and deal with he think that there is enough salt to deal with a long bad problems as quickly as possible. Some of the public winter? Are we in a better position than last year? I reaction during the bad weather came from people repeat that last year was dealt with much better than the trapped in vehicles behind blockages on the road. They year before. Salt provision and co-ordination arrangements were concerned that the blockages had not been removed among the Government, regional organisations, local and felt that more warnings should have been given or authorities and salt suppliers worked far better. more urgent action taken. The Government agreed with our concern, but it would be helpful to know whether Public support is widespread for more action to clear specific action is being taken to address the problem. pavements and minor roads during periods of disruption, particularly to maintain access to facilities such as Our report covered a great deal of ground. I have schools and health centres. Often when we discuss disruption referred to most of the areas involved, but there were to transport networks in bad weather, there is a perhaps many concerns involving all modes of transport. It was inevitable focus on major roads and major transport also essential to consider the needs of the non-travelling networks. They are clearly of economic importance and public. Our report asked for better information at all matter for the country as a whole, but it is also a levels and more co-ordination to secure effective action, problem if somebody living in a local road cannot get as well as more investment targeted at the most appropriate out, is worried about falling or cannot get access to places. With more accurate information about weather goods, services, basic amenities or friends. Sometimes, and road conditions, train services and flights, people by concentrating on the big questions and challenges, can make better informed judgments about whether to we do not give sufficient attention to the local issues travel, and transport providers can plan better. 343WH Transport Disruption (Winter 2010)1 DECEMBER 2011 Transport Disruption (Winter 2010) 344WH

[Mrs Louise Ellman] invest in improving the supercomputing capacity of the Met Office, the sooner the UK will see the social and I hope that our work has helped the Government economic benefits. respond to the policy challenges highlighted by last I also want to say a few words about how best to December’s bad weather, and I hope that it has shown communicate the impact of weather on driving conditions. our main transport providers that they should be doing At present, the Met Office-issued warnings are to be more to put passenger welfare first. Our report considered interpreted by drivers based on The Highway Code, how effective co-ordination of information and action— with advice provided through the media by the Highways including preventive action, action to deal with problems Agency and police. Last winter, drivers were advised at and recovery—can mitigate the impact of bad weather the height of the extreme weather conditions not to use in an ongoing process. I hope that our report contributes the roads unless they had to. However, the interpretation to enabling transportation links to operate in the interests by drivers of this advice is not clear. Do people who of the public despite bad weather. hear this message ask themselves, “Do I need to use my car to make this journey?”—the answer to which is 2.57 pm often yes—or do they ask themselves, “Will there be serious implications to not making this journey at all?”, Simon Wright (Norwich South) (LD): I am grateful in which case the answer might be no? for the opportunity to contribute to this debate. I It needs to be noted by Ministers that the Highways congratulate the Select Committee on Transport on its Agency research on driving behaviour in the winter report, which made numerous recommendations that before last shows that there had been little change in many of us can support. I will speak briefly about the behaviour, despite the severity of the weather and the recommendations relating to better weather forecasting warnings issued. I strongly support the Committee’s and the provision of improved warnings and travel recommendation for research into travel messages and information to drivers. how they influence behaviour, or fail to. The nature of Achieving better medium and long-term forecasting language used, consistency of message and clarity for would allow transport operators to plan better for the recipients are all vital. If we are to tell people not to problems ahead. We start in a good position. The Met travel unless necessary, they need to be clear about what Office is widely recognised as one of the best weather circumstances are and are not necessary. Perhaps advice predictors in the world, providing accurate and reliable needs to be more direct—“Do not travel unless there is forecasts over various time scales. The Met Office relies a medical need to do so.” Perhaps different levels of increasingly on supercomputing to carry out its work. alert could be devised, but let us support proper research Developing capacity and capability is vital if it is to into the issue so that we can know what makes a undertake more detailed forecasting in future. difference and what does not, rather than simply tweak The science is available now to predict weather better, existing practices that have not always delivered results. but computing power is required to realise that science. Websites can also play an important role to help In the past, meteorology applied to weather forecasting drivers plan their journeys. The Highways Agency’s had the most cutting-edge computing power available. Traffic England website, for example, provides real-time Today, that is no longer the case, but last winter showed information on any problems on the motorway and us that it is still needed. Better computing power means A-road network. We need to make sure that drivers are that the science can be applied in ever higher degrees of aware of such tools, but we also need to recognise that resolution. at times of high demand some websites simply cannot The investment required to ensure that the Met Office cope. There were reports on some days of extreme has adequate computing power is probably about weather last winter that traffic information websites £15 million a year. That is a little more than the hon. were going down. For those drivers who are already out Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman) suggested, on the roads, it is vital that every effort is made to but it is in the same ballpark. That investment would ensure that there is access to real, in-time information bring tangible benefits to the UK through improved about the conditions on particular routes, and that short-range weather forecasts, long-term predictions drivers are able to adjust their routes as necessary, and climate change projections. including before joining, and therefore adding to, existing problems on roads. The economic case for better forecasting is clear in relation to advance planning for extreme weather events The AA’s survey of drivers has already been mentioned. affecting transport infrastructure, but other opportunities It highlighted that drivers most wanted to be actively would arise from better flooding, snowstorm and high directed away from motorways if there were problems, wind forecasting. The insurance industry, which has a and that they supported the use of the police to carry strong presence in my constituency, also stands to benefit, out that function. Roadside assistance could also be given that two thirds of the world’s insured losses are delivered through improved information and signage. I related to natural events. Getting information out early support efforts by the Highways Agency to develop the means that businesses and communities can plan their use of variable message signs and the expanded use of activities and, in extreme events, possibly save lives, too. similar technologies across the road network where For long-term planning, the improvements in climate appropriate. modelling from improved computing power would help The ever-increasing availability and use of in-car significantly to inform investment in and delivery of technologies, such as sat-nav and smart phones, mean major transport infrastructure projects. The Met Office’s that new opportunities are available for providing real-time public weather service at present is already worth more data specific to the interest of the individual driver than £500 million to the economy. Increasing computing following a specific route. Again, I think that the Highways power would increase that even more. The sooner we Agency has an important role to play, working with 345WH Transport Disruption (Winter 2010)1 DECEMBER 2011 Transport Disruption (Winter 2010) 346WH providers of data-based services, to ensure that the data cleared, but they are not because they are not in the that it provides are as complete and as usable as they local authority’s plan. I am concerned about some of can be. There is even a role for the agency to help those routes. They can be quite major roads and side develop data applications of its own where needed. roads on which, in parts of my constituency, cars can be We need to get weather forecasting as good as it can trapped for many days. be, and we need people who are both planning journeys The then Transport Secretary, the current Defence and driving on our roads to have access to the most up Secretary, told the Transport Committee that the issue to date and accurate information about the weather and of snow clearance is one for local authorities, but I do the condition of particular routes, and a system of not think it is enough to leave it to local authorities. warnings that are proven to be effective in changing More should be done to set expectations and to support driver behaviour when the conditions require it. them with funding allocations, taking those areas that are prone to severe weather conditions into particular account. 3.4 pm There is also an issue with particular parts of local Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): We have been so authority areas. Johnson Fold, a council estate in my lucky so far this winter, but that seems to me to be part constituency, has some of the highest housing in the of the problem in this country with winter resilience. We borough, on the edge of the moors. Two winters ago, have winter after winter with very little snow and ice, when the rest of the borough had defrosted, Johnson but then have winters like the previous three. At a time Fold was still snow and ice-bound. I came across elderly of dreadful cuts to budgets across the piece, it can be people who had been trapped in their homes for three easy to make winter preparedness a lower priority, weeks. The vast majority of residents, particularly on especially for weather events that do not happen every this estate, are of limited means, so they cannot purchase year. A few years ago, one of my local authorities sold the additional help to clear roads and paths. There are one of its snow ploughs, because if felt that our winters fewer cars on the roads, because they do not have as had warmed. I think that, last year, it might have many cars as those in the more affluent areas, so the regretted that decision. traffic flow does not get rid of snow and ice, either. I want to focus on the people end of the problem with I appreciate the then Secretary of State’s suggestion winter weather. Colleagues already have and, I am sure, of voluntary snow wardens. What has happened to will talk about airports, major roads and rail. I have them, and how much progress has been made? Standards quite a large constituency, the ground of which varies should be set whereby resources that are no longer from being quite high to quite low. The highest parts are needed on major networks are used in the more remote the west Pennine moors and, like any high ground, there areas, so that they are not disproportionately affected, can be snow there when there is none lower down in the and I think that that advice and those standards should constituency. In fact, I have sat in a constituent’s house be led by the Government. in Horwich in absolute panic, because the snow had That leads me to another concern of mine about started to lie heavily, wondering how and earth I was pavements, which we seem to leave entirely to local going to get home, but by the time I got home at the authority discretion. I accept that pavements might not other end of the constituency I ran into only a little be their first priority, but we need to get our thoroughfares drizzle. As they say in Lancashire, it is an overcoat going, because they are part of our transport system; colder up at one end. That illustrates graphically the people need to walk to and from trains and buses, and need for accurate, localised information. they walk to work and other places. Again, it seems that I am sure that all colleagues present would share my some standards should be set. I know that different frustration at seeing a sign at the start of the M1 that things happen in different local authorities, and when says that the M6 is closed at junction 16, because a the bins could not be collected in two local authorities driver does not know whether it will still be closed when in my area, staff were transferred to clearing the pavements, they get there in three hours’ time. I recognise the but more standards should be set. limitation of roadside signs—it is not possible to put a I say that because these problems lead to costs in huge amount of information on them—but we need other areas. They lead to increased costs in the health that localised information, and we need it on local service because accidents occur and people have slips radio, websites, sat-navs and other electronic devices. It and falls. They also lead to costs in the economy at large is hugely important that that information is regularly when people cannot get to and from work or to shops to updated, because, too often, information is left on those trade with people who are trying to run their businesses. sites long after the obstruction or the problem has been Should those additional costs, which lie outside transport cleared, which leads to an absolute lack of trust in the in the smallest sense, be factored into the economic information when the driver gets there and the road is costs of severe whether? no longer closed. The hon. Member for Norwich South (Simon Wright) This is not just a bad-weather issue, because we need talked about people being given information, but do the that information all year round, whether it relates to cuts to what the Government call their marketing budget—I accidents, roadworks or other incidents on our highways. would call it their information service—mean that less As I have said, the information needs to be localised. In information is being provided to people through traditional my experience of my locality, certain main thoroughfares means, such as television adverts and literature? Does are cleared as quickly as possible. I have no complaints that mean that people are less prepared? Do they have whatsoever with the speed with which that is done, shovels and blankets in their cars? Should the Government bearing in mind the weather conditions over the past review their expenditure on advertising safety measures? couple of years. However, one would expect other roads I do not think we are giving people some of the public that one considers to be main thoroughfares to be information advice they need, particularly on safety. 347WH Transport Disruption (Winter 2010)1 DECEMBER 2011 Transport Disruption (Winter 2010) 348WH

[Julie Hilling] are fortunate that we have not faced early snow this year, but we need to know that stocks and systems are in Finally, how will the cuts and potential cuts to the place to respond if and when severe weather strikes. BBC and local radio services affect the travel services I would be grateful if the Minister answered a number on which we all rely? Those services give very localised of questions on road issues. Is he confident that, as of today, information about hold-ups and blockages, but will that the UK has a large enough stockpile to cope with a information be affected by cuts at the BBC? prolonged period of extreme weather? What measures are in place to ensure that stocks can be replenished, 3.12 pm from domestic or international resources, over the winter? As an aside, let me say that I was grateful that the Leader John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op): of the Opposition sent me down the salt mine at Winsford It is a pleasure to serve under you as Chair, Ms Dorries. last year. It was an excellent experience, and I recommend This is an important and timely debate, and I congratulate that the Minister takes the opportunity to visit it. the members of the Transport Committee on their What measures has the Minister taken to ensure that valuable and constructive report and on securing this the salt distribution network is robust, even in severe slot. I also congratulate the Committee Chair, my hon. weather? Are his officials in a position to provide more Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman), timely information and advice to local authorities on on her excellent opening speech. She will be delighted to the availability of strategic salt stocks and on recommended know that I will reinforce many of the points she made. salt spreading rates? During last year’s severe weather, A year ago this week, Britain was hit hard by extreme the Highways Agency phone line for providing information winter weather and experienced the earliest snowfall on road conditions and reporting hazards missed its for 17 years. Temperatures fell as low as minus 21°C— targets for response times in three separate weeks. What temperatures not normally associated with the UK. measures have been put in place to ensure the phone The snow and cold were extremely prolonged, extending line has the capacity to function properly this year? right through to Christmas and the new year, and we Just as we cannot afford Britain’s road network to are well aware of the impact they had on Britain’s seize up, so we must avoid a repeat of the disruption, transport networks: thousands of flights were cancelled delays, distress and economic damage caused by the at major airports; passengers were trapped overnight on failure of airports and parts of the rail network to stranded trains; motorways were closed for hours on function as well as they should have during the severe end after accidents; and people were trapped in their weather. The Select Committee report acknowledges houses as councils ran low on salt to treat roads. that decisions on investment in both sectors are often It was an exceptional winter, and it would be unrealistic rightly in the hands of private sector bodies, but that to claim that Britain could have got through it without cannot mean that the Government wash their hands of some disruption to our transport networks. No one responsibility. blames the Government for the thickness of the snow, Our major airports are an essential part of our strategic but it is right to ask how prepared and resilient they transport system and our economic competitiveness. enabled the country to be. The 2009 winter under the The Begg report clearly gave the impression that provisions Labour Government was also harsh and caused transport at Heathrow for dealing with severe weather and recovering disruption, leading to the establishment of the Quarmby from a period of enforced closure were woefully inadequate. review. The following year, it became clear that the new Heathrow’s status as a global hub airport faces intense Government had not gone far enough in putting David competition, and an inability to cope well with severe Quarmby’s recommendations in place, despite having weather will not help it in any way. Let me therefore received the interim report in July. reinforce the importance of the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside by On salt supplies, in particular, although the distribution asking whether sufficient runway clearing equipment is method may have improved, as the Committee’s report now in place at Heathrow and other airports. What noted, the Government gave the impression of being involvement have Transport Ministers had in signing asleep on the job. In its April report on the winter off revised snow plans for those airports? disruption, the Committee identified criticism from The major problems on the railways last year revolved the Local Government Association, which said that around the third-rail electrified network in the south-east. recommendations on reducing salt spreading rates came I was pleased to note from a written answer I received far too late in the planning process. The AA and the that some de-icing vehicles were made available for that Royal Automobile Club had concerns about the resilience network earlier this year. In October I was informed of the UK’s salt supply arrangements, while the Institute that 16 anti-icing multi-purpose vehicles and six snow of Highway Engineers said that the strategic salt supply and ice treatment trains would be available from today, was inadequate. 1 December. Are those indeed in place? Can the Minister The Committee noted that Ministers claimed credit also confirm whether locomotives are available on the for having a stockpile of salt left at the end of the third-rail network to rescue stalled trains? In the longer winter, but the truth is that we got lucky. The UK went term, as my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, into the winter with less salt than recommended by Riverside alluded to, the Quarmby review recommended David Quarmby’s report. From parliamentary questions that Ministers should look seriously at whether the time I have tabled, we know that 60% of Britain’s stock of had come to replace the top contact system of third-rail salt was used up by the end of December. Had milder electrification. No one should underestimate the scale weather not prevailed in the new year, we would have of the cost of such a proposal, but it has warranted no faced much more widespread road closures. Last winter, mention in the national infrastructure plan, which was Britain’s salt stocks and distribution systems came close published on Tuesday. Has there been any work on the to being inadequate to meet the challenge we faced. We recommendation, and what conclusions have been reached? 349WH Transport Disruption (Winter 2010)1 DECEMBER 2011 Transport Disruption (Winter 2010) 350WH

Last year, as has been mentioned extensively, one of for the weather—he almost did, but not quite. rail travellers’ key complaints was the failure of information [Interruption.] If he wants to, that is fine. We were systems. Often, station information screens were blank, collectively—not just the Government, but local authorities because contingency timetables had not been uploaded and transport providers—better prepared in 2010 than to the national computer system. What measures are in in 2009, which also saw serious weather. I think that we place to prevent a reoccurrence of that problem? Some are better prepared in 2011 than we were in 2010. train operators provided a good standard of information, through both traditional and social media methods, The availability of salt stocks has been mentioned. throughout the disruption. Others seemed at times to The hon. Member for Barrow and Furness said his give up. What discussions has the Minister had with the leader sent him down a salt mine; my leader has not sent Association of Train Operating Companies and individual me down one yet, but perhaps that will come if I do not companies to ensure that best practice will be spread perform well this afternoon. I am happy to say that salt across the industry and that poor performers can be stocks are healthy: in October there were 2,755,000 tonnes penalised? of salt stocks, which compares favourably with—indeed, it is considerably more than—what we had last year. On several occasions last year, passengers were trapped There were no problems with salt stocks either this year on powerless, stalled trains, without emergency blankets or last year. Had we had a Siberian winter, no doubt we or emergency supplies of food or drink. On 27 October might have had a problem, but even with an exceptional this year at column 285W I asked a written question on winter the salt stocks were perfectly adequate. We now whether provision had been made for such supplies to have more stocks than last year, and having undertaken be carried on trains during severe weather. I was concerned a survey of all local authorities and all councils bar two to receive a response that stated simply that the matter have responded, we are confident about the figures we was the concern of the operating companies. We need quote. In addition, we have published guidance on salt Ministers to take a more hands-on approach than that. spread rates, which is available on the UK Roads Liaison If necessary, they should consider instructing companies Group website and through the Highways Agency. We to make such provision. Will the Minister make a are well prepared this year. commitment to consider the issue and carry out a full analysis of which operating companies have made The hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside asked arrangements to carry blankets, water and food? whether all the Quarmby recommendations had been Following three severe winters, questions are rightly implemented in full. She will know that some of them being asked about whether we have the right balance of were not for the Department for Transport, so I cannot investment for winter resilience. Governments of all definitively say whether all the local authorities have shades, in recent decades, have perceived a decline in implemented all the measures identified for them. However, instances of severe winter weather, and have made all the recommendations that relate to the Department investment decisions accordingly. It is possible, whether for Transport have either been completely implemented, as a result of climate change or not, that we may need to or are or have made significant progress toward revise our approach. After last winter, the then Secretary implementation. If the hon. Lady wants to pursue a of State made a commitment to studying whether there particular point, I shall be happy subsequently to was evidence that the cost-benefit analysis of investment provide her with information in recommendation-by- in winter resilience had shifted. I would be grateful if recommendation form; that is perfectly possible. the Minister would update us on any such work that is The hon. Lady asked whether we would have an taking place. independent review this winter. I hope that that will not When the Minister answers the question of my hon. be necessary. We are better prepared—I shall explain why Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside about the I think so in a moment—and so are transport providers. announcement of funding in the autumn statement, If something were to go awry we would want to examine will he make it clear whether the investment that is what happened—as would the Committee, I am sure—but being made will ensure that all the additional capacity I hope that will not happen. that is being bought will be available this winter? The hon. Lady and my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich South (Simon Wright) highlighted the importance 3.23 pm of preparations by the Met Office and the capacity to identify future weather patterns—at least beyond a few The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport days. I believe that last winter the Met Office forecasts (Norman Baker): A huge range of questions were asked broadly reflected what occurred, which was useful, but in the debate, and I will do my best to get through them. it remains the case that severity can vary over relatively I thank the Select Committee on Transport for initiating small distances, so an element of operational judgment the study and for producing a helpful and balanced on how reliable the information is will always be required report—indeed, its Chair, the hon. Member for Liverpool, by transport providers and, indeed—to pick up the Riverside (Mrs Ellman), made a helpful and balanced point made by the hon. Member for Bolton West (Julie contribution today. The Committee is doing its job and Hilling)—by those who make their own judgments about the Government have found its comments useful in whether to venture out. Weather in this country can focusing our attention on the important issues. change markedly within five or 10 miles, so it is difficult As the hon. Lady and the Opposition spokesman, the to get even local radio forecasts very accurate. Incidentally, hon. Member for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock), I am not responsible for BBC local radio cuts, and nor said, last winter was extraordinarily cold. The hon. are the Government: it is a matter for the BBC what it Gentleman referred to the fact that the temperature does. I simply hope that the BBC can protect local reached its lowest for 17 years; it was indeed exceptional. radio, which is a valuable service and information source I am grateful that he did not seek to blame the Government for the country. 351WH Transport Disruption (Winter 2010)1 DECEMBER 2011 Transport Disruption (Winter 2010) 352WH

[Norman Baker] the necessary flight cancelations during disruption, which was mentioned, so that passengers have more timely The hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside and my and accurate information about whether their flight is hon. Friend the Member for Norwich South both rightly operating. I entirely agree that it is important to do that asked about a potential £10 million investment in given what happened last year at the airport. In answer supercomputing capability for weather forecasting. We to the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness, yes, I am are considering that suggestion sympathetically. There confident that Heathrow and Gatwick are much better is a need to understand the benefits of more detailed prepared this year than they were last year. There was, forecasting and its role alongside other measures designed indeed, an ambiguity about whether Heathrow was to increase the resilience of transport infrastructure to closed. That was not helpful and I am hopeful—confident, disruption from extreme winter weather. We are working even—that that will not occur this year. with economic and scientific colleagues across Government The issue of emergency timetables was also mentioned to review the evidence about winter weather patterns in relation to Heathrow. As the hon. Lady rightly said, and to test whether current levels of investment in the former Secretary of State for Transport raised that winter resilience are being optimised. The Met Office possibility, and it is worth considering the matter. In raised the idea of supercomputing capability. Perhaps principle, the Committee said that it can see the benefits the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside, as Committee to passengers of imposing an emergency timetable at Chair, knows that the previous Transport Secretary busy airports. The Civil Aviation Authority will continue commissioned a review by the chief economist and its work on improving airports’ resilience, including by chief scientist at the Department for Transport to establish monitoring the progress made by airports to improve whether there was a case for greater investment in their performance through the implementation of agreed measures to improve winter resilience. That review is capacity reduction plans in relation to an emergency also formally assessing the business case, and, if it is timetable where appropriate. The operators and others viable, the potential funding options for such an investment. at Heathrow airport unanimously agreed to capacity The present Secretary of State has the report on her contingency plans being enforceable through the airport desk and will publish it shortly. local rules. They will be introducing such plans if necessary The response of aviation was rightly raised. It is as a result of the requirements that the winter imposes undoubtedly true that there were significant problems on them. at Heathrow last year, to which hon. Members rightly The Chair of the Select Committee referred to future drew attention. The Committee referred to the criticism plans for the CAA. Let me just find the relevant note that major airports were under-investing in winter resilience on that. The hon. Lady was concerned about the draft Civil equipment, and thought that that was borne out. The Aviation Bill and the plans for passenger representation. hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside also mentioned As I have already mentioned, the Civil Aviation Authority the David Begg report in her opening remarks and the will continue to monitor the progress made by airports useful work that he has done. As she knows, we broadly to improve their performance. There will be enforcement agree with the thrust of the Committee’s observation on through the CAA through licensed conditions to facilitate the level of airports’ investment in winter resilience. greater airport resilience and a better passenger experience However, Heathrow and Gatwick have taken on board during any disruption. The CAA is taking an active the need to do rather better than last year. They have interest in that matter, as I think the hon. Lady recognises. put in place revised arrangements and made new investment to reduce the risk of disruption as a result of future There has also been an attempt to ensure better severe winter events. surface access to airports during disruption, which the hon. Lady mentioned. I can assure her that the Department I can confirm that both airports have made significant for Transport will be monitoring future events, including investment in additional snow and ice clearance capacity access to airports, to ensure that there is co-ordination and that Heathrow has committed more than £30 million between modes of transport. That was recommendation 14 to date, including on tripling its snow and ice clearance of the Committee’s report. We are engaging and have vehicle fleet and quadrupling staff numbers available engaged with transport operators already to ensure that for snow clearance. Gatwick has invested £8 million in contingency plans are in place to deal with any events further snow and ice clearance equipment, including this year. However, although we and the operators can the acquisition of snow clearance vehicles from Switzerland make the best plans possible, we are dependent on the and the subsequent acquisition of 30 additional vehicles. weather. We cannot prepare for every single eventuality; Both airports have revised their operational command we can simply do our best under the circumstances and and control procedures to improve their response to ensure that we respond as best we can. severe weather. The information provided to passengers was raised At Heathrow airport, operators and others who use by a couple of hon. Members. It is certainly true that the airport have agreed capacity contingency plans that the information on airlines and trains provided to passengers are enforceable through the airport’s local rules. Those was not at its best. Some train companies are better plans will be initiated during periods of temporarily than others, but we are concerned that accurate information reduced capacity to deliver an effective schedule for needs to be provided on a timely basis, including on passengers. Heathrow has tripled the number of vehicles whether or not to travel. That needs to be clear. The available for snow clearance compared with December hon. Member for Barrow and Furness asked what 2010—there are now 185 vehicles at the airport. It has discussions I have had on either winter preparedness or increased the number of staff available for snow clearance passenger information during disruption. I have had from 117 to 468 per shift and it has a new reservist role, extensive discussions with the train companies and with so that 950 non-operational staff can be deployed. It Network Rail. I have met them regularly on a monthly has agreed with industry on a new process for managing basis. During those meetings, we have considered passenger 353WH Transport Disruption (Winter 2010)1 DECEMBER 2011 Transport Disruption (Winter 2010) 354WH information during disruption and winter preparedness thereby mitigating the impact of severe weather in the to try to ensure that, first, the trains are able to run—I first instance and, if necessary, helping to speed up the will come on to the infrastructure points in a moment—and, recovery of the network. As the hon. Member for secondly, that when something does occur, passengers Liverpool, Riverside said, the Highways Agency did a are properly informed about what is happening and pretty good job last year, but obviously there is still what action they should take. room for improvement and we are keen to see that. That includes, as I mentioned in a debate yesterday or the day before, ensuring that when a train is stranded, John Woodcock: Does that include extra capacity on appropriate steps are taken to ensure that passengers the emergency telephone line, if needed? If the Minister can get to a station as soon as possible, rather than is not sure of the answer, will he write to me? potentially being stranded for a long time on a train. However, it is not appropriate to micro-manage train Norman Baker: I will mull that over and provide an companies and for Department for Transport officials answer before the end of the debate. to count how many blankets are on trains. We have a The hon. Gentleman asked about snow wardens. The responsibility to indicate to train companies that they Local Government Group has set up a website for local should be prepared, but it is for them to take that authorities to share best practice, including what to do forward on their own basis and to ensure they are about snow wardens and encouraging that process. I properly prepared. Ultimately, the buck stops with them. understand that many authorities already have snow We do not own the train companies, but we have a right warden schemes in place. to say to them that they should be prepared, and we have done that. However, it is up to them to ensure that The hon. Member for Bolton West suggested that we they take that forward in their own way and they will be might do more to lean on local authorities. We try to held accountable for any shortcomings that occur as a resist the temptation to suggest that Whitehall knows consequence. best—that we can always run what happens in Kettering better than people in Kettering can. We do not want to Two or three hon. Members raised the matter of do that. I draw the hon. Lady’s attention to the fact that pavements. I entirely agree about the lack of attention a local authority has a general duty under section 41 of that some local authorities have sometimes given to the Highways Act 1980 to ensure, as far as is reasonably pavements. It is wrong simply to assume that people in practical, that safe passage along a highway is not vehicles are the only ones who matter. Many people threatened by snow or ice. If she or anyone else thinks have to get from A to B on foot and they deserve proper that local authorities are failing in that duty, they can of consideration, too. On a purely practical basis, there is course pursue them appropriately, but that is the general no point keeping a bus route clear if the whole pavement duty that I hope gives some reassurance and cover. around the bus stop is a sheet of ice, which I saw in my I was asked about variable message signs on highways town of Lewes last winter. There needs to be some to improve the information that can be displayed. I take joined-up thinking. There also needs to be some thinking the point that sometimes messages are first seen from a from local authorities to identify important passenger long way away and may not be current when they are routes, such as doctors’ surgeries, to ensure that essential reached. I also take the point—I referred to it earlier—that journeys carried out by foot can take place. I hope that localised weather conditions can be such that the message the hon. Member for Bolton West will appreciate that, actually gives inaccurate information. However, the again, it is not for us to tell local authorities which roads Highways Agency is widening the use of variable message and pavements should be clear, but as I have made plain signs to improve the messages that can be displayed to the Local Government Association and others, it is during severe weather. They will now be able to be used incumbent on them to think about the needs of those to provide severe weather-related incident information who are on foot, as well as those who are in vehicles. and warnings of forecasts of severe weather, as well as I hope that we have made it easier for individuals who messages saying that weather will be particularly bad in want to help to take action themselves by removing the any particular area. The agency is trying to provide that suggestion that they will be subject to legal action if information in a more localised and more up-to-date they clear their path or help in any other way. It was fashion, bearing in mind the constraints that I mentioned. unhelpful that that suggestion got around and we have As was mentioned, the Highways Agency is developing knocked it on the head. We have made it clear that we a comprehensive publicity campaign for this winter, welcome people taking sensible steps to keep pavements which is aimed at encouraging road users to take more clear both for themselves and for other people. We are responsibility for their actions during severe weather also grateful to the farming community for the steps it through focused messages. Road users are being encouraged has taken to ensure that it can help with vehicles that, to plan their journeys ahead of severe weather, to check for example, are stranded in country lanes and that weather forecasts before setting out, and to prepare would otherwise be there for some time. The idea that their car and carry an emergency kit with them. Variable people should help each other is not new, but it does not messages will be used to make that point to drivers. The do any harm to reiterate it today. campaign is called “Make time for winter”. I am happy I have dealt with emergency timetables, the CAA and to tell the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside that the surface access. On the Highways Agency and crisis that partnership marketing campaign takes on board response, I am happy to say that the agency has developed the comments made by her Committee and responds and implemented a revised crisis management policy to directly to them. The campaign was launched on 24 October, co-ordinate its services better during a severe winter in unison with the Cabinet Office’s “Get Ready for incident. That policy ensures that an appropriate level Winter” and Scotland’s “Ready Scotland” campaigns. I of Highways Agency command is in place to take over hope that they will be useful in making drivers consider all strategic management. Its aim is improved co-ordination, their actions carefully throughout the winter period. 355WH Transport Disruption (Winter 2010)1 DECEMBER 2011 Transport Disruption (Winter 2010) 356WH

[Norman Baker] Extra point heaters have been installed in some locations to ensure that points remain operational—as hon. Members It is difficult to be specific about whether drivers will know, points are particularly vulnerable to freezing, should go out. Ultimately, people have to make their which can then cause a major problem in either direction own judgments based on common sense. It is common for quite some distance—and maintenance has been for the Government tell individuals not to fly to a particular carried out on existing point heaters to ensure that they country because of the political situation unless they remain reliable. The train companies have already have to. We have to rely on individuals to make those undertaken maintenance work on their train fleets to judgments for themselves. All we can do is put a flag up improve reliability during winter operation, including and say, “Hang on a minute, look at the facts in this action to minimise problems with frozen sliding doors particular case.” That is what we will try to do. and frozen couplings. Some fleets on the third-rail The information about Highways Agency telephone network have been equipped to spray de-icing fluid to lines has now come to me. I am told that the agency has keep the conductor rail clear of ice and snow. They have a wide range of channels for members of the public to also ensured that supplies of salt and de-icing products contact it and is not aware of any particular problems are available at stations and depots, to keep platforms with the telephone line systems. However, as the hon. and other areas clear of snow and ice for the benefit of Member for Barrow and Furness raised the matter, I passenger safety. will look into it and write to him with any further The train companies are also being encouraged by us information. to liaise with local highway authorities to ensure that The Highways Agency carried out a complete review roads leading to stations and depots are kept clear of of its performance last winter, taking into account the snow and ice—the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside recommendations of both the Transport Committee talked about co-ordination across modes—and staffing and the Quarmby audit. It has worked with a number arrangements have been reviewed to ensure that staff of key stakeholders to develop measures to improve are available to operate the service. A number of train preparedness for severe weather this winter. I have companies have made arrangements to accommodate referred to some of those measures, but it is also carrying staff who are unable to get home. out a series of winter snow desk exercises and stakeholder Several train companies have produced contingency briefing sessions to test its preparedness for the coming timetables that will be introduced in the event of severe winter, and issuing guidance to service providers to winter weather. They have been validated by Network confirm elements of the winter service that need to be Rail to ensure that they are capable of being operated exercised in advance of winter. It has taken other steps, robustly. Improvements in timetabling software mean including better liaison with the Met Office, to return to that they can be uploaded to industry journey-planning an earlier point. systems overnight. Steps have been taken—sometimes I mentioned that I regularly raise passenger information high-tech, sometimes low—to improve trains and keep them during disruption with train companies. It may be useful resilient, including, according to my crude understanding, for hon. Members to know that the Office of Rail stuffing a sock into the horn to ensure that it does not Regulation has been consulting on making good passenger fail, because if the horn fails, the train cannot go out. information a licence condition for train operating Every possibility, therefore, is being covered by the train companies. I understand that it is likely to announce its companies to ensure that trains run. conclusions shortly, after consultation, and I will be interested to hear what it says—it is, of course, independent My experience last year was that the train companies of Government. tried hard to ensure that trains ran—for example, Virgin It may be useful to comment on the train companies’ ran trains to get people home, although they had to run preparation in terms of both trains and the network, so slowly. One of the points I make to officials and others that we can be more confident than perhaps some in the rail industry is that it would not be right to people have been in the resilience of the rail network for penalise companies through their performance measures the coming winter. I think that it is fair to say that both if they were doing the right thing and getting passengers the train companies and the Network Rail have taken home rather than meeting some abstract performance significant steps to improve their preparedness compared measure. Southern also performed well by running diesel with last year—and, indeed, last year was better than stock down the Brighton main line, which enabled the year before. Network Rail now has key route strategies passengers to get home under diesel traction when the for each route, which set out arrangements for keeping third rail was not available; other companies took similarly route lines and critical junctions open and which facilities helpful measures. The information from one or two can be expected to be provided. companies was clearly inadequate, which caused a great deal of unhappiness among passengers, but I am confident On the routes that are electrified with third-rail current—a that those companies will be much better prepared to point raised by the hon. Member for Barrow and deal with passenger disruption this year. Furness—which are by and large south of London, Network Rail has introduced conductor rail heating in I hope that I have covered most of the points made critical locations, which will keep it clear of snow and today. If I have missed any out, I will pick up on them ice. The pilot projects so far have been successful and we and write to Members accordingly. are considering further roll-out. Network Rail has also introduced a new and improved snow and ice clearance 3.50 pm train, including a snow plough and equipment to keep the conductor rail free of ice and snow. The hon. Mrs Ellman: With the leave of the House, I will Gentleman also asked whether the commitment to meet conclude the debate. We have had an interesting and certain deadlines by 1 December had been met. I am helpful discussion. Individual hon. Members have raised assured that the answer is yes, it has been met. key points, and I thank the Minister for his comprehensive 357WH Transport Disruption (Winter 2010) 1 DECEMBER 2011 358WH reply, which indicates that the subject is being treated Bus Services seriously and action is being taken. It is an ongoing [Relevant documents: Eighth Report from the Transport issue to which we may well return, but I have been Committee, “Bus Services after the Spending Review”, encouraged to hear how the Government are dealing HC 750, and the Government Response, Ninth Special with it. Report, HC1550.]

3.51 pm Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): Buses are the most popular form of public transport in this country. There were 4.6 billion bus passenger journeys in England in 2009-10, compared with 1.3 billion rail journeys, yet buses rarely attract high-profile attention. In part that is because central Government do not take as close an interest in buses as they do in rail travel, but I suspect another reason. Outside London, buses are disproportionately used by older and less well-off people who, regrettably, do not attract the same attention as rail travellers. However, buses are vital, connecting people with town centres, jobs, colleges, shopping, family and friends, and when bus services are cut, people’s lives are badly affected. Last year’s spending review included three decisions with significant implications for bus services in England; nearly half of bus operating revenue comes from public sources, so any reductions from such sources are highly relevant. First, support for local authorities overall was cut by 28% and funding for local buses was no longer ring-fenced. That affects those services paid for by local authorities for social reasons, or about 20% of services overall, although that figure varies from place to place. The TAS Partnership estimated that that will eventually reduce the subsidies available to bus services by £125 million. By February, local authorities had confirmed an overall reduction of £44 million for 2011-12. Secondly, changes in the formula for concessionary travel reimbursement have taken about £100 million away from local authorities. Concessionary travel reimbursement is claimed to be provided on a “no better off, no worse off” basis, and the formula changes are intended to iron out teething problems found during the introduction of the scheme under the previous Government. Thirdly, the Government announced a 20% reduction in the bus service operators grant, a form of fuel duty rebate, to take effect from April 2012. That will affect all bus services, commercial as well as subsidised, and is estimated to remove around £60 million from the industry. I should add that the increased cost of diesel has also put up bus operators’ costs and, inevitably, will have put pressure on services. The total reduction in revenue for the English bus industry, outside London which has rather different arrangements and which we did not consider in our investigation, is likely to be between £200 million and £300 million per annum. By June 2011, 70% of English local authorities had decided to reduce funding for supported bus services, which affected some urban as well as rural services. Some authorities, such as those of Hartlepool and Cambridgeshire announced that they would cut some of their subsidised services altogether. Our inquiry took place in the first half of this year, and we published our report in August. We wanted to find out what the effect of the spending review changes was likely to be and to consider how it could be ameliorated. We were particularly keen to hear the views of bus users 359WH Bus Services1 DECEMBER 2011 Bus Services 360WH

[Mrs Louise Ellman] on community transport, was rejected. The Government clearly want to see community transport expand, and and took specific measures to find out exactly what the Committee welcomed their new fund in support of was happening to them. Working with the excellent that, in particular in rural areas, but they do not seem to parliamentary outreach service, we distributed leaflets be resolving what is a mounting problem. Perhaps the about our inquiry in libraries and citizens advice bureaux Minister could clarify the Government strategy. in areas that we knew to be most affected by cuts in I am also worried that the changes to the bus service services. We used parliamentary petitions to identify bus operators grant, which are due to be introduced next service campaigners in particular areas. We also took spring, will hit both subsidised and commercial bus oral evidence from a panel of bus users, and that services hard. At the time of our inquiry, the Minister’s evidence brought home to the Committee and to the view was that operators would be able to absorb most of public the practical implications of cuts in essential the changes. The bus industry has challenged that view, services. We received a great deal of correspondence and I would be interested to hear the Government’s and evidence about the impact of bus cuts on people’s assessment of the impact of reducing BSOG to bus lives, from all sources, including letters from disabled services next year. people and senior citizens, telling us about their experiences and how cuts in services meant that they could no longer [MR HUGH BAYLEY in the Chair] socialise with friends and families. We heard from students The Government are reviewing BSOG to see whether who had had to leave their college courses because they it can be delivered in a different way—for example, by could no longer get to college on time and, after we had paying it to local authorities instead of to bus operators. published our report, I met members of the Liverpool I would be interested to hear the Government’s thinking Schools’ Parliament who reinforced that point. They on that. It is important that the money provided by the spoke about the impact of cuts in local bus services on Government is earmarked for local bus services. That the accessibility of school and college to them. Time must be achieved, whatever means are adopted. and again, the letters and all the correspondence, the One theme that emerged from the public’s evidence petitions and personal representations showed why bus was that consultation on changes to bus services is often services matter and should not be left to market forces. inadequate. There were examples of good practice, but Our main conclusion was that the combined impact passengers were sometimes not asked about changes, or of the three spending review changes to bus funding were consulted on only one option. That is not good posed the greatest financial challenge to the industry for enough, especially when considering how important a generation. We were not convinced that the Government bus services are to their users. The Committee recommended had a full understanding of the impact of the funding that Passenger Focus should develop a consultation changes on subsidised and commercial services, and we toolkit for local authorities to use when proposing recommended that they should co-ordinate the collation changes to subsidised services, and the Government of information about changes to subsidised services. I agreed. What progress has been made? Is the toolkit am pleased that the Government agreed with that ready, and will the Department monitor how it is used, recommendation, and they are now working on it with and encourage local authorities to follow best practice? the Association of Transport Coordinating Officers. The need for proper consultation does not rest solely Can the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, the with local authorities and the integrated transport hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker), tell us when authorities. Private bus operators also have responsibilities, that information will be ready, so that we can monitor and they should encourage customer feedback about how the provision of subsidised bus services is changing services, and consult on changes before they are registered throughout the country? Has the Minister been in touch with the traffic commissioners. Hon. Members will with local authorities about their plans for subsidised know from their constituency work how worried people services in 2012-13? It is not solely about local authorities, become about abrupt changes to service provision, including however; how is the commercial sector responding? those from commercial operators. We need better notice, What information has been received about the likelihood better consultation, and more involvement from bus of further cuts? Many hon. Members know from their users. If there are financial difficulties—the public are constituency work that local bus services, commercial certainly aware that there are financial difficulties in as well as subsidised, are being reduced. almost every public service—the users of the service often have ideas for how to make best use of available The Government have stated that they hope that resources. It would be good to see more consultation communities, operators and local authorities can work with local people before decisions are made. together to improve local bus services. I certainly agree In their response to our report, the Government with that aim, but will it actually happen? The Committee seemed to be sympathetic to that argument, but said that recommended that the Government should identify the they wanted to reflect on the Competition Commission’s barriers to co-ordinating different types of transport proposals before reaching a view. The commission’s services. Does the Minister agree that the Department role in looking at the future pattern of bus services will should do so, and report on what progress has been be extremely important. It has been examining the made? competitiveness of the bus market since the beginning We looked at the possibility of community transport of last year. Consequently, we did not examine that schemes playing a greater role in delivering local bus issue, or consider in depth how legislation on quality services. The Government are considering ways of making partnerships and contracts has been used. However, we such services more commercially viable, but it is unclear recommended that local authorities and integrated transport how that consideration is progressing. I was disappointed authorities should use the provisions in the Local Transport that one option for expanding community transport, by Act 2008 to achieve better partnership working, and I allowing people to use their concessionary fare passes am pleased that the Government agreed. 361WH Bus Services1 DECEMBER 2011 Bus Services 362WH

The Competition Commission’s findings are due to of total services, and that many people depend on them. be published this month, but there has already been a In a relatively deprived constituency such as mine, lot of discussion about whether they will make a significant where many people cannot afford a motor car or are not difference to the transport market, and specifically the well enough or active enough to drive one, buses are bus market. Some of the information published about essential. Extracting a definition of a socially necessary bus companies’ strategies in places such as the north-east journey from some of the commercial operators who does not suggest that competition is working effectively. appeared before us was frustrating. They squirmed but There seems to be a reluctance to tackle that by using could not provide an answer. They won the award for quality contracts, or franchising. I note that Tyne and worst witnesses of the year so far. Wear transport authority is actively considering a quality The inquiry enabled me to mull over the Government’s contract approach. It would be helpful to know whether role in bus services. Is it appropriate to expect a Minister the Government are taking an interest in that, and in Whitehall to pull a lever, and to raise the quality of examining barriers in authorities that want to agree services throughout the country? It is an unavoidable quality contracts. If there are barriers, they should be truth that local bus services are best controlled by local addressed, and I hope that the Government are taking councils, or some locally accountable body. Ever since an interest in that. The Select Committee will consider the Committee’s first inquiry on economic growth in the Competition Commission’s report when it is published, transport, we have heard talk of new regional bodies and I expect that we will return to this issue in the new that will allow transport decision making closer to the year. ground. However, we have yet to see anything beyond I want to finish by referring to the concessionary fare potential names emerging from the Department, and I scheme, which enables free local transport throughout would welcome more guidance from the Government the country. It was one of the biggest successes of the on when there might be progress. previous Government’s transport policy. I congratulate The Government’s other role is to set a good example. the Minister on ensuring that it was not a victim of the As the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman) spending review, which was significant. Passenger Focus said, we had some truly lamentable examples of found that 39% of older bus pass holders made a consultation, and calling some of them consultation greater number of local journeys by bus than before was a joke. It was a case of “We’re removing the service, they obtained their passes. That resulted in more social and if the passengers don’t like it, hard luck because inclusion, and enabled them to be more active than we’re doing it anyway.” That is not consultation; that would otherwise have been the case. The importance of is “get lost” or “get knotted”. Nevertheless, central transport includes health implications, and one area Government have a role to play. that health authorities have identified is that it is important for older people to maintain an active life for good I was bored one Sunday afternoon, so I started health. The concessionary free pass is a major factor in looking at the Government’s official response to the achieving that. report. I sat at my computer trying to open complicated Excel spreadsheets of statistical data. I am sure it is a When we examined how the concessionary pass scheme marvellous resource if someone has a spare lifetime to was working, we concluded that to inform development get to grips with it. I was intrigued to note that a review of future policy, data are required on how it is working, is being conducted of what data are being collected. I who uses it most, and who finds it most beneficial. In hope that most of it does not disappear as part of some their response, the Government did not seem to accept review. I was struck by a few statistics. I wondered why that, and perhaps the Minister will reconsider. The 77% of Scottish buses have ITSO card readers, but only scheme is highly valued, and we think there may be 18% of buses in English non-metropolitan areas have scope for smart ticketing to reduce its cost. them. I thought that that was an interesting difference. Our inquiry shone a light on how the spending review I also noted that English non-metropolitan areas is affecting a crucial but often under-appreciated and have now seen the third annual decline in a row in under-reported part of our transport network. We engaged the number of overall passengers. For the first time, with the public in innovative ways to publicise why concessionary fare journeys dipped in English non- buses matter, and to ensure that we have the best metropolitan areas over the past year. I know that possible information from people who are dependent statistics are not everything. I noted that in Blackpool, on buses. We are worried about the impact of the cuts passenger journeys had dropped from 16 million five that have taken place and those to come. The outcome years ago to just 14.5 million in the past year. I know of the Competition Commission’s work, and how the why: we have had major civil engineering works and it Government respond to it, will be crucial to development has been impossible to get anywhere in the town centre. of the bus industry—bus services for passengers—over Statistics can be a little misleading at times and do not the next few years. The Committee will continue to pay always paint the whole picture, but they struck me as close attention to bus services, and I anticipate questioning interesting examples of some of the trends in bus ridership. the Minister on that in the Committee in the not-too-distant future. I raise those statistics, but I do not want the Minister to think I oppose what he is doing. I think that what the Government are doing is fair and balanced and reflects 4.7 pm where we are as an economy and as a nation within the Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con): global economy. There is a healthy dose of localism in It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, what the Minister proposes. I also recognise the Minister’s Mr Bayley. The Committee’s inquiry has been one of own deep, personal commitment to buses and to public the more enlightening and intriguing it has embarked transport more generally, and I praise him for it. I echo upon since I joined it after the election. It certainly the comments of the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside brought home to me the fact that buses should be part (Mrs Ellman) on the importance of the Competition 363WH Bus Services1 DECEMBER 2011 Bus Services 364WH

[Paul Maynard] which could become “the mode of choice for concessionary pass holders.” Commission’s report, which is continually forthcoming. I would not deny that a sudden, rapid overnight expansion If I believe what I read in my newspapers, I hope it will of community transport would undoubtedly cause problems criticise what seems to be an utterly dysfunctional market for commercially provided and supported services, but in certain parts of the country. I struggle to understand why the provision of a high The Minister will not be surprised to learn that I wish quality, excellent service that responds to people’s to devote the bulk of my remarks to community transport. needs should be seen as a problem. I have never been Rather than re-rehearse my ten-minute rule Bill, which one to believe in levelling down to the lowest common called for the extension of the concessionary fares scheme denominator. That is one reason I find myself on the to community transport, I want to reflect on some of Conservative Benches. I would like other mainstream the Government’s responses in the ninth special report. providers to be encouraged to raise their game rather Like the Minister, I share the desire to put community than be told, “Don’t worry, we are not going to make it transport on a more sustainable footing, requiring less too uncomfortable for you. We are going to make sure public subsidy and building on the social enterprise the community transport lot stay in their box and do model. In the long-term, that has to be the way ahead. not put you to shame.” That would not be terribly I welcome the dedicated £10 million fund for community helpful. transport. I welcome, too, the efforts of the Department I understand the Minister’s point about the possible for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs with the rural dangers to supported rural bus services, but we must social enterprise fund. However, we must also acknowledge realise, as the report did, that although more people that community transport is not just a rural phenomenon may have concessionary fare cards, they actually have —it matters greatly in urban areas, too. In some ways, fewer buses on which to use them. That is my underlying for more vulnerable, marginal groups, it matters more in concern. urban areas. I am thoroughly pleased that the Government have I certainly take the Minister’s point—I assume it is lived up to the pre-election pledges of both parties to the Minister’s, because it sounded as though he had protect the concessionary fares scheme. That is entirely drafted it—in response to recommendation 13 and the right and proper, but we now have to ensure that creative imagination that local authorities must apply to vulnerable citizens in my and other Members’constituencies circumstances in which they withdraw supported services. have the services that they need to ensure that they can Where that is occurring, it makes immense sense for get to where they need to go. I am not convinced that community transport to step in and fill a hole for a the mindset of local councils or local commercial providers relatively small amount of money. I agree with the is such that they understand that vulnerable people Minister that that is a sensible and useful way forward need to get to GP surgeries, hospitals and libraries, and for community transport. None the less, I am concerned that that is where the bus network should go. At the at the complexity of some of the legislation, which moment, it is a patchwork quilt of constantly changing represents a barrier to many volunteers, who get terribly routes and services that confuses passengers, providers confused, as I continue to do, over section 19 and and even Members of Parliament. I ask the Minister to section 22 services—over who to pay and what to do. It do one thing: hurry up with his consultation toolkit and is a technical and complex minefield. I recognise that make sure that passengers are meaningfully involved the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency and traffic way when local authorities consult on service changes. commissioners put a lot of effort into trying to guide providers through that minefield, but it is still deeply complex. 4.18 pm At the Community Transport Association’s conference Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab): It is a pleasure to this morning, I heard the Minister’s comments about serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bayley. It is always why he was reluctant to extend concessionary fares to a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Blackpool section 19 services. For those who were not there, I will North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard), who, like me, paraphrase his point: it would cause a policy issue to represents a coastal town. allow concessionary fares in what is essentially a private Before I begin my comments, may I pay tribute to members’ organisation, club or society—whatever we Mr Thomas Bunce, who was a resident of Burbank in want to call it—to have access to a wider concessionary my constituency? He worked hard to secure adequate fares scheme. I thought about that over lunch. It strikes bus provision—particularly the 516 service—for the me that that is coming at it from the way. Many of those community. Sadly, he died suddenly in September after people have to join a dial-a-ride scheme because they a journalist had been to see him to discuss bus services. cannot access mainstream public transport in the first Hartlepool and Burbank are poorer for Mr Bunce’s place. This is perhaps part of a dialogue rather a direct passing. I hope the House will join me in paying tribute challenge, but I wonder whether the problem lies more to him and extending our gratitude and sympathy to his with the Transport Act 1985 and the higher threshold it family. [HON.MEMBERS: “Hear, hear.”] sets for accessing section 19 services, rather than the I am grateful for this opportunity to debate an important reason given not to extend concessionary fare schemes issue that is important to my constituency, and I thank to section 19 services. the Chair of the Transport Committee, my hon. Friend I am intrigued—I think that is the correct word—by the Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman), the Government’s response to the wider issue of and her Committee for raising this topic, and for concessionary fares. The Department rightly points out encouraging members of the public who are affected by that community transport will usually offer a cuts to services to contribute to the inquiry. After seven “more flexible, personal service”, years in the House, I cannot think of another Select 365WH Bus Services1 DECEMBER 2011 Bus Services 366WH

Committee inquiry in which the Chair and members of from Ryehill Gardens. They are mostly elderly, cannot the Committee actively encouraged members of the afford taxis and are effectively isolated as a result of public to contribute to its findings. It is a fantastic changes to and withdrawals of bus provision. They do model that we should use in future in the House. not want an extra bus service; they want the Hartlepool has one of the worst bus services anywhere number 3 service to be diverted—perhaps just once or in the country—a situation that has worsened as a twice a day—so that it goes into town and comes back result of the comprehensive spending review. Due to the via Ryehill Gardens, allowing them to travel to and worst local government financial settlement for a generation, from town, get groceries, attend appointments or meet the local authority has withdrawn all public subsidy to friends. On average, that diversion would add about private bus operators. In March, I raised the issue of seven minutes twice a day to the existing bus service. bus services in Hartlepool on the Floor of the House Stagecoach rejected that suggestion and—perhaps even through a petition of residents, and I encouraged Hartlepool worse—it did not give residents the courtesy of a meeting residents to get in touch with the inquiry and express to explain its decision. Members will agree that that is their feelings. Together with the Committee’s active not good enough, and it demonstrates all too vividly the encouragement of public participation, it meant that—as contempt—that is not too strong a word—shown by usual—Hartlepudlians did not disappoint. The Committee’s Stagecoach, and why people in England need a complete report features heavily the opinions of Hartlepool residents change in the provision and regulation of bus services. on the loss of their bus services; pages 12 and 13 contain The Committee reported on bus services after the quotes from nine people, five of whom are my constituents. comprehensive spending review, but in the week of the Their views have had a big impact on the Committee autumn statement perhaps we should bring it forward and on the shadow spokesman, my hon. Friend the and talk about future financial arrangements. The report Member for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock), stated: with whom I have discussed this issue. “The combination of the reduction in local authorities’ revenue Mrs Olly, 80 years old, stated: expenditure and changes to the Department for Transport’s concessionary fares reimbursement guidance in 2011-12, with the “I appreciate that spending reviews were needed and accept a 20% reduction in Bus Service Operators’ Grant (BSOG) due to be reduced service but to discontinue the service altogether is appalling.” implemented in 2012-13, has created the greatest financial challenge Mrs Robinson said: for the English bus industry for a generation. The combined “I am a carer for my 85 year old father who has just undergone impact of these funding changes will, in some parts of the an operation for bowel cancer and also has heart problems. I used country—” to get the 516 bus service (this has now been completely withdrawn). Hartlepool, for example— It now costs me £11 per day by taxi so am only visiting my father “have a disproportionately adverse impact on the provision of three days a week which is leaving him alone four days in each local bus services and the level of bus fares.” week.” That is one of the report’s central paragraphs. Miss Raw declared: As my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside “The bus service from Elwick to Hartlepool has been withdrawn said, local government was hit hard in the CSR. Revenue leaving the village completely cut off from Hartlepool. I do not expenditure will be cut by 28% over four years, with drive and therefore am finding it very difficult to shop for essentials, central Government assistance going from about visit doctors, dentists, opticians, banks, hospital visits etc. Also I no longer visit friends, go to the theatre, or cinema, especially in £38.5 billion in 2010-11 to £22.9 billion in 2014-15. As a the evening. In fact we are completely isolated.” result of this week’s autumn statement, however, it will Finally, Mrs Power stated: get a lot worse. This week, the Chancellor confirmed that his deficit reduction targets will not be met in this “Since the removal of the bus service my daughter now has no Parliament, and that he will have to extend them over way of getting to and from college. Is she surely not entitled to the education she deserves? My daughter works very hard and gets a further two years. That will mean more pain over a excellent grades and I feel appalled that her future education is longer period, and it will be concentrated not on being jeopardised in this way!” capital expenditure but current spending. The autumn On publication of the report, my hon. Friend the Member statement confirmed that current spending will be cut for Liverpool, Riverside kindly gave an interview to my by an additional £910 million in 2012-13, £1.175 billion local paper, the Hartlepool Mail: in 2013-14, and £1.735 billion in 2014-15. After this Parliament, the figures become unsustainable and “We received a lot of information from people in Hartlepool which demonstrated the problems caused by the withdrawal of economically dangerous—£8 billion and £15 billion in local bus services…The information was very dramatic, which 2015-16 and 2016-17 respectively. showed the impact it had… Hopefully this will make the Government Local government and transport will bear the brunt think again about planned cuts… I would like to thank the people of many of those changes, and I predict that the cut to of Hartlepool who gave us the information.” BSOG in 2012-13 will be much worse than the 20% I echo that thanks. predicted. Will the Minister indicate how he intends to As I said, Hartlepool has a poor bus service. That combat what the Chancellor laid out in the autumn results from a number of factors, not least, as the hon. statement, and say how he expects England to have a Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul functioning bus transport service, given the astonishing Maynard) pointed out, that in many areas—and in my budget cuts currently planned that are only going to get area in particular—the market for bus services does not worse? operate effectively. Passengers do not have the choice As the Committee pointed out, bus passengers are that a market should provide, and they are forced to facing their biggest challenge since the second world endure poor and inadequate provision from a monopolistic war. On behalf of my constituents, I thank the Committee provider—Stagecoach. That company’s disdain for for its work in highlighting the issue and putting pressure passengers was demonstrated a few weeks ago when, on the Government. As the hon. Member for Blackpool with Councillor Allan Barclay, I met about 40 residents North and Cleveleys said, the current model in which 367WH Bus Services1 DECEMBER 2011 Bus Services 368WH

[Mr Iain Wright] Another issue in relation to which good local consultation is vital is concessionary fares. We have talked about the monopolistic bus providers are able to cherry-pick services concession card. I am glad that that has been preserved, and make excessive profits cannot be sustained, especially but of course it applies only to off-peak services, and at the expense of important social routes, and cuts to one problem identified to me locally is that pensioners Government budgets tip that model over the edge. want to use buses in the peak time. Some still wish to Communities such as mine would welcome and encourage work; we are all being encouraged to work for longer a co-ordinated and sufficiently funded public transport and longer. They also have to get to some services service, but that can happen only if a strong Transport before the 9.30 am cut-off. The shadow Minister, the Minister backs this important issue in Whitehall against hon. Member for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock), the Chancellor, and takes steps to remove power from indicates from a sedentary position a financial issue. I monopolistic providers, thereby re-regulating bus provision am happy to report that in Milton Keynes we have in England. come to a deal. This relates to the point about consultation. The local authority and Arriva have worked together to 4.28 pm provide not free bus travel for pensioners before 9.30, Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): It is always but a concessionary fare of 50p a journey. During a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bayley, consultation, people who would be using the buses said and I add my thanks and congratulations to the Chair that they would be happy to pay a fare at that level. of the Transport Committee, the hon. Member for That was found out through a very effective form of Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman). She comprehensively local consultation. set out the evidence taken by the Committee and the As other hon. Members have said, it is important to conclusions that it reached, and I was proud to be part share that good practice throughout the country, because of that investigation. some local authorities clearly have not taken that approach. I wish to pick up on one or two points in the report, The evidence from my area is that the local authority add some experiences from my local area and give one has done that. I strongly urge the Minister to take up or two international examples that I have researched. I the recommendations that the Select Committee made was struck by the variation in the ways that local about a consultation toolkit and a mechanism for authorities around the country responded to the admittedly disseminating good practice throughout the country. I challenging economic circumstances in which we now have a fairly open mind about what the best forum operate. Some authorities have taken a hatchet to bus for that is. It may be the Department itself, the Local services. The hon. Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright) Government Association or another forum. Clearly, gave evidence of that from his area. Other authorities there are examples of good and bad practice, and we have responded innovatively and positively and worked need to ensure that the good practice is rolled out as far hard to protect local bus services. as possible. I shall give an example from my own local authority I want to touch on not just current bus services, but in Milton Keynes. It predates the comprehensive spending the planning for future bus services. Milton Keynes is a review. Just after I was elected, in May 2010, the local fast-growing area, so what applies to us may not be bus operator, Arriva, completely reorganised its network relevant in other areas, but with house building forecast and timetables. It said that it had had a consultation on to grow quite significantly in future years, I think that that. As my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool such planning will be an important issue in many areas. North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) said, it was anything I am talking about planning properly for new bus but a consultation. Indeed, some people turned up on services. I want to highlight the Oxley Park area of my the first Monday of the new system, expecting their constituency. That is a new build housing estate on the usual bus to turn up, but it was not there. In the first western edge of Milton Keynes. The good part was that chaotic few weeks of being a new Member of the there was a plan for a new bus route going through it, House, my mailbag and e-mail inbox were flooded with with stops all the way along so that people could easily complaints from patients who could not get to their GP get to the centre of Milton Keynes and to other key surgery, from students who had missed exams and from destinations in the authority area. That was all well and shoppers who could not get to their local shops. There good, and it was financed by some section 106 money were all sorts of problems. That was one of the first big and through other agreements with the house builders local issues that I had to deal with. I was lucky enough to put in that facility. to be able to secure an Adjournment debate in the The problem has arisen because the design of the Chamber in the first few weeks after the election. The estate had to meet density targets. The houses are Minister may recall responding to it. crammed in; the main road through the estate is quite I am happy to report that many of the problems have narrow; and there is not sufficient car parking space. now been remedied. The situation is not perfect, but That means that the bus drivers have to go through a through work with the local council, with Arriva and chicane of parked cars. Sometimes they cannot get with the new bus users group that was set up, many of through at all. There are issues of road safety: there are the problems have been solved. I raise that as an example many young families in the area, and kids naturally because consultation is vital. Bus services need to be want to play outside. There is also a noise problem responsive to the needs of the local area, and those because the houses have been built right up to the needs may change as time goes on. It is important to pavement. The buses, with diesel engines, make a noise, talk to the users—the bus passengers—but also to the and the service runs until quite late, so I have had many local service providers, such as the GP surgeries, local complaints from residents saying that they cannot get colleges and schools and retailers, so that a local bus to sleep because of it. That is providing a disincentive to service is provided that people want to use and that bus use—people are campaigning for the bus route to generates additional traffic. be removed. 369WH Bus Services1 DECEMBER 2011 Bus Services 370WH

However, with proper planning—I welcome the I will again cite a local example—the welcome provisions of the Localism Act 2011 on better community announcement in the autumn statement that the east-west involvement in designing new housing areas—we should railway line will be built from Bedford, through Milton be able to plan new housing areas with bus routes in a Keynes, to Oxford and further south-west. I campaigned way that does not cause problems and in such a way for that in this Chamber two weeks ago—I had secured that people want to use them. I hope that the Minister a Westminster Hall debate to call for it—and I am will liaise with his colleagues in the Department for delighted that it has been delivered within two weeks. I Communities and Local Government and take that might have to be careful in what I wish for. suggestion forward. In developing that line, which has a strong case of I have one other point about local consultation, and increasing rail use and encouraging people off the roads it relates to finding innovative new ways of delivering and on to rail, how much better would it be if, as part of services. Milton Keynes is largely an urban area—85% the planning, the services were integrated with the bus of the population of the local authority area lives in the systems in Milton Keynes, Oxford and other places urban centre of it—but it covers quite a wide rural along the route? People who live elsewhere in Milton hinterland as well. There are quite a number of small Keynes who want to travel to Oxford will therefore be villages on the outskirts with very small populations. able to decide that they can get bus x to Bletchley Most of those people drive, but there are a few people station and then straight on to a train, rather than say, for whom a bus service is a lifeline, although it is not “I am not sure when I will get there if I get a taxi to commercially viable to provide a regular bus service Bletchley. I will be better off using the car.” With proper that one person uses every other day. As far as I am planning, the new transport infrastructure projects can aware, the council has not come to any conclusions, but be even more successful than they will be. it is exploring innovative new ways of not having a bus Such optimism needs to be part of the bus industry. I service but helping people to use a local taxi service at was slightly perturbed, when we were taking evidence no additional cost over what the bus fare would be. I am from some bus operators, that they were not seeing the talking about a more responsive service, which they will opportunities in the current climate. I cannot predict want to use, as opposed to a static timetable that may be what fuel prices will be like in the future—I am not a inconvenient for them. Again, that is where local innovation betting man, but if I were, I would suspect that they will can come to the fore. There will be plenty of other remain high for some time. That surely is an incentive examples across the country, and those good ideas can and opportunity for bus companies to say to people, be shared. “You do not have pay £1.35 for a litre all the time. You I want to move on to a more general point about would be much better off getting a bus to your destination.” strategic planning in relation to buses. Buses have always If bus companies think innovatively and work with been the poor cousin of the transport system. Having to local authorities and others to provide new services, use a bus is almost looked down on, but that need not there is an opportunity to grow the market. be the position. I shall give an international example. In I am optimistic about the future of bus transport in the summer recess, I was invited to go to Switzerland by this country, but we must seize the opportunity. The Swiss Federal Railways. That was primarily to look at economic circumstances are challenging—I am not going its railway system, but as part of the visit, we looked at to get into a debate about how we got here and what the its transport system and planning as a whole. On one of future will be. We have to accept the reality that economic the days, we went to visit the small city of Zug, just circumstances will be challenging. However, there are south of Zürich. It has put in a new commuter railway opportunities to grow the system and the usage of line from the city centre to the outskirts. We travelled on buses. The Select Committee’s recommendations are that and got to the suburban station. We then watched helpful in nudging that forward, and there are good what happened. A train arrived from the centre of international examples that we can follow. I hope that town. Everyone got off and went to the adjacent bus our contribution in the report will help persuade the station, where six buses were waiting. Five minutes Minister to take those arguments forward. later, they all dispersed to the housing areas around the station. Fifteen minutes later, they all came back in, and 4.43 pm the passengers had five minutes to cross to the railway Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): I apologise for platform. The next train then went back into the centre having been somewhat remiss at the start of my speech of Zurich. The system was integrated, with some public in the first debate, first, in not congratulating my hon. and some private operators, which worked together to Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman) provide a reliable and regular service. on securing the debate and on her work and leadership Another thing that struck me from that example was as Chair of the Select Committee on Transport, and the sheer range of passengers using the system. There secondly, in not saying that it is a pleasure to serve was everyone, from smartly suited business men to under your chairmanship, Mr Bayley. I hope that I have students and shoppers. Everyone was using it—it was a put things right and that I will be forgiven. good cross-section of the local community. The system Bus services are a classic example of the private was so well regarded that people wanted to use it. No sector making profit but the taxpayer picking up the tab one was thinking of driving into the centre of town, when things go a bit wrong, particularly when a route because they knew that they had a reliable system. We is not profitable. Although it is not profitable to enter in this country have been poor at that. I am not going to into a debate here on whether buses should have been make a party political point—I think Governments of deregulated, there is a debate to be had, as my hon. all colours have failed to grasp the option of having a Friend the Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright) said, much more integrated across-the-zones transport system. on how bus services can best meet the needs of our I hope we can have more of that. communities in the future. 371WH Bus Services1 DECEMBER 2011 Bus Services 372WH

[Julie Hilling] Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart) was saying, the integration of our services is not improving. I am also There is a huge difference between buses inside and deeply concerned about rising prices. The cost of bus outside London. Buses outside London are predominantly journeys outside London can be extremely high. What used by the less affluent and are a lifeline for many in is the Government going to do to improve the affordability our communities. As my hon. Friend the Member for of bus fares? Are they monitoring the effects of cuts to Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) said, concessionary fares and school transport? perhaps because of poverty, disability or age, many I will finish by saying that, as with so many of the cannot drive. We all start too young to be able to drive, cuts that are happening at the moment, the cuts to and I hope that we all end up too old to be able to drive. public transport are having a disproportionate impact Our bus services can be woefully inadequate, particularly on less affluent and vulnerable people. I hope that the if someone wants to go between communities rather Minister can give us some reassurance that he will take than to the centre. action on the concerns that we have raised. There is a reasonably good service in my constituency if people want to go into Bolton, but please do not try 4.50 pm to go between Blackrod and Horwich, or between John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op): Westhoughton and Smithills. Someone living in the student Thank you for calling me to speak, Mr Bayley. It is area of Manchester has a bus going into the centre of good to be serving under your chairmanship for the first Manchester every minute, right around the clock, but time. someone living in Hag Fold in my constituency cannot get off the estate on a Sunday morning, and people dare I congratulate the Transport Committee on securing not stay out too late at night, because the buses stop this hugely important debate and on its excellent report, running at a ridiculously early hour. which shows just how much damage is being done to bus services up and down the country. The Committee’s Perhaps we should ask why everyone sees the bus as a words have been quoted already, but they are very good form of transport in London but not elsewhere. In important. According to the Committee, the current London, buses are still regulated. Private companies are situation is contracted to run the services, but control is in the hands of Transport for London. The previous Government “the greatest financial challenge for the English bus industry for a generation” introduced quality contracts, under which local authorities and integrated transport authorities can commission a and bundle of services rather than have bus providers just “some of the most vulnerable people in society, including the bid for various routes. Currently, a provider can decide elderly, will be most affected by these changes.” that a route is not commercially viable and leave a local It is not hard to see why the Committee had to use such authority the choice of either paying for the service or strong language. Its Chair, my hon. Friend the Member leaving passengers stranded with no bus service. The for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman), set out the key consequences of that are enormous—kids not being decisions by this Government that have led to half a able to get to school, young people having to give up billion pounds being cut from local transport funding college because they cannot get there, and people giving in this year alone. First, the 28% cut in direct funding to up part-time or full-time work because they cannot get councils has removed £95 million from local transport. to their place of work. My hon. Friend the Member for Secondly, £223 million has been taken from funding for Hartlepool described the isolation of people who are stuck the concessionary fares scheme for pensioners, which in their communities and have no way to leave to visit threatens services that are viable only because of that the doctor or friends—they are trapped. It does not seem subsidy; as a result, many pensioners are finding time right that a provider can say, “This route is not profitable,” restrictions placed on their bus pass. Thirdly, a further and ask the local authority to pick up the tab. £254 million will be taken out of support for buses next Quality contracts mean that profitable and non-profitable January, when support for bus fuel costs is reduced by a routes can be bundled together as a package, with the fifth. expectation that a provider will provide services on all Unfortunately, in their formal response to the those routes until the end of a contract. That seems Committee’s warnings about the damage being done to much fairer. Rather than have the taxpayer pick up the bus services, Ministers have displayed just how out of pieces, there can be a balanced approach between the touch they are about the impact of the cuts to local taxpayer and the operator. Unfortunately, operators do transport and buses, which are being made too far and not seem keen on quality contracts. What will the too fast. In their response to the Committee’s report—and, Government do to assist local government to get bus let us remember, after half a billion pounds has been cut services that are fairer to the taxpayer? from bus services funding in this year alone—the Government claimed that the bus industry was I have several concerns about the general cuts to bus services. As we have said, for many people there is no “able to absorb this reduction without raising fares or cutting services”, alternative to the bus. Buses are a fundamental part of integrated transport. We do not want people to drive to even though the Committee report is clear that, as my a station to catch a train; we want them to be able to use hon. Friend the Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright) buses on part of their journey. Most of us do not live flagged up, the cuts will lead to: next door to a railway station, and we have to find some “a disproportionately adverse impact on the provision of local way to get there. Buses have to be a fundamental part of bus services and the level of bus fares”. the transport system, not just the bit that poor people The scale of service reduction and fare rises was use. We need to look at greater integration, but services reinforced by a report from the Passenger Transport are diminishing as we speak. As the hon. Member for Executive Group on the impact of the spending review 373WH Bus Services1 DECEMBER 2011 Bus Services 374WH on bus services, which found that by 2014 bus use will 4.57 pm fall by a fifth and fares will rise by 24% in real terms. In The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport addition, the Campaign for Better Transport has found (Norman Baker): Thank you, Mr Bayley, for calling me that the cuts have already led to huge reductions in to speak. As always, I will do my best to respond to the services across the country, with one in five supported various points that have been made. services being reduced and three quarters of local transport authorities planning to cut back on their bus services. Let me begin by congratulating and thanking the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman), Behind those figures lies the real damage that is being the Chairman of the Transport Committee, both for done by cutting our bus services so heavily. The cuts are her Committee’s report into this very important subject hurting young people, who are already struggling as a and the measured way in which she presented the report’s result of this Government’s decisions to cut the education findings. Buses are the predominant form of public maintenance allowance, treble tuition fees and end the transport and they are used disproportionately highly future jobs fund. A million young people are out of by those on lower incomes, so it is quite right that the work, and trying to get to places in education or to start Committee should look at them seriously, as it has, and working is made even harder for them when their local come forward with its thoughts and recommendations. bus service is taken away. The cuts are also hurting older people, who find themselves isolated and cut off from As we set out in our response to the Committee’s family and friends because the bus service on which they rely report, “Bus Services after the Spending Review”, the has been taken away.During the general election, all political Government place a great deal of value on local bus parties promised to protect free bus passes, but many services. We recognise the important role they play in older people are now asking what is the point of their people’s lives and in the wider economy. We have put free bus pass if there is no bus for them to travel on. significant funds into ensuring that services can continue to operate across the country, whether that is by retaining Perhaps the most striking part of the Select Committee’s the bus service operators’ grant in full for this financial excellent report is the evidence gathered from bus users year, or by reiterating and maintaining our commitment around the country about the impact of the Government’s to the concessionary travel entitlement for older and cuts on their quality of life. My hon. Friend the Member disabled people. In addition, the local sustainable transport for Hartlepool rightly raised the plight of people in his fund was established, providing more funds for sustainable constituency.I will add the case of Mr Turpin, a 65-year-old transport over a four-year period than the previous in Somerset who had a quadruple heart bypass but who Government provided. In tranche 1, £155 million was now has to cycle every week up a steep and busy A road handed out and 35 of the 39 successful bids included because his bus service has been withdrawn. These are bus-related elements. not statistics that we are discussing; they are real people who are suffering real hardship as a result of this However, we recognise that more needs to be done, Government’s decisions. Unfortunately, their stories are which is why I announced at the UK bus awards on being repeated in towns and villages up and down Tuesday a further £25 million of capital funding for England. In my constituency, the No. 60 bus in Ulverston buses. The previous two tranches of the green bus fund is the latest service to come under threat, after just seven have been a success story, paying for more than 500 new months of running unsubsidised. The hon. Member for low-carbon buses. The Government are now committing Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) made a another £20 million for the third tranche of the green good point about the paucity of the so-called consultation bus fund, to ensure that carbon emissions from buses processes carried out by the private sector. continue to fall. I am sure that the industry will confirm, as it has to me, that when people are presented with new Bus services are being cut, communities are being left clean buses they find them more attractive, which means isolated and where buses remain the fares are soaring there are more people who want to use them. I announced well above inflation. If the Minister wants to avoid earlier this week that, with the Mayor of London, we being labelled the modern-day Beeching of the buses, he are committing £10 million to reducing emissions from must tell us what he proposes to do about the damage London’s buses and improving air quality in the capital. that is being done to bus services. Can he say when the We continue to support bus manufacturers and operators, consultation toolkit being created by Passenger Focus to promote jobs across the UK in companies that can for local authorities will be completed and rolled out? supply clean vehicle technology. I was pleased to be able Has he started work with the Local Government recently to open the new Optare factory, which is a vote Association to help community transport associations? of confidence by British bus manufacturers in the future Finally, will the Minister accept the recommendation of bus use in this country. made by the Transport Committee and by my own The issue of community transport was raised by the party’s transport policy review that local communities Chairman of the Select Committee and by my hon. and the transport authorities that represent them should Friend the Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys be given a greater say in how their bus services are (Paul Maynard), and I shall deal in particular with the funded and provided? My party’s policy review is clear point about where it fits in the system. As the hon. Lady about that. It is not good enough for Ministers simply will have heard this morning, community transport has to devolve the blame for their cuts to local transport a viable role in a number of ways. It helps to provide funding without giving local transport authorities the door-to-door transport for people who would otherwise power to manage their own transport services. The not have any transport at all, and it helps with moving answer is not simply to enhance the voice that communities groups around in a way that commercial services would have, important though that may be; it is to put them not be able to deal with—for example, children or directly in charge of the local decision making on young adults who want to go from A to B when there is transport. That is what we are calling for the Government no bus running, or old people who want to get to the to do. cinema for a day out. It also provides bus services where 375WH Bus Services1 DECEMBER 2011 Bus Services 376WH

[Norman Baker] life more difficult for people who need to travel by bus. I do not want to shy away from that, but the national there is no case for a commercial service, and probably picture is more mixed. As my hon. Friend the Member no case for a supported service either. The community for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart) mentioned, in transport sector is very important and I want it to many places local councils are taking positive steps to prosper and grow, which is one of the reasons that in ensure that better services are provided more cost-effectively March I announced £10 million to kick-start growth in and more efficiently, and I would like to give some the sector. The evidence is that local councils have examples of that. welcomed the funding and are using it, by and large, The first comes from Dorset, which I have mentioned productively. I accept that there is more to be done, and in previous debates. Dorset is one of England’s most I hope to be able to say something even more positive in rural counties, so commercial services are limited to the the next few days. main towns, and for non-commercial services contract My hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North prices have been rising. A further problem the council and Cleveleys has put an interesting case, promoting his faced was that there were more than 700 different view of life with section 19 and the concessionary fare contracts for passenger transport services with, including arrangements, and the report’s recommendations show taxi firms, about 300 operators. The contracts covered that the Committee shares that view. There are three the full range of council services, from adult social care issues about section 19 and about why it would not be to school transport. By combining budgets and staff in right at this point to extend the concessionary fare a single integrated transport unit, and by working in arrangements. One issue is simply cost. We have protected partnership with local operators, the county council has in its entirety the entitlement element of the concessionary managed to make significant savings while introducing fare arrangements. We have not gone back at all from new, longer-term contracts that offer stability for operators, the previous Government’s legislation. To extend the and secure patronage and revenue information for the arrangements further would incur extra cost, at a time council. There were some teething problems, and people of financial difficulties for local government and the who pay attention to such matters will have seen mention Government nationally. of them in the local transport press, but the council has Secondly, I know that my hon. Friend wants to saved large amounts of money and managed significantly approach the matter from the other end, but there is a to minimise cuts. There are lessons to be learned from point of principle about whether a concessionary fares Dorset. The council has made annual savings of up to system should be provided for services that are essentially £1 million on contracts for school and tendered bus available only to members of a group, and I am not sure services, and it has opened up the local bus market to that it should. new operators, which has the potential to kick-start The third issue is that there is a consequence for competition for commercial services. existing bus services, particularly supported ones in The second example comes from Bedford. Despite rural areas, which are probably among those nearest the financial constraints, Bedford borough council has been mark on viability, even when supported by local councils. able to improve bus service provision in rural areas. This If we were to see a significant number of people changing has included new and restored routes, increased frequencies to community transport because of the incentive provided, and free travel for under-16s at weekends and during existing bus services could be fatally undermined and school holidays. This was made possible simply by the situation made worse. I am hesitant, therefore, to negotiating closely with local bus operators and consulting extend the arrangements as my hon. Friend has suggested, extensively with local communities, the sort of measures but he has made some fair points to forward his case. that my hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes The Committee has asked that we monitor the impacts South advocated in his contribution. In both these of any changes made by local authorities or operators. examples, new approaches to procuring bus service We will do that, in conjunction with our partners in contracts have resulted in new entrants into local bus industry and with local government. The Campaign for markets, which the Competition Commission identified Better Transport has recently collated figures on reductions in its provisional findings as vital to making the markets in budgets and services, which has been useful. We more competitive and providing a better deal for passengers recognise the importance of monitoring trends over and local taxpayers. time, and that is why we publish annual bus statistics A third example comes from the Isle of Wight. In and run a national travel survey, which will continue. September, Isle of Wight council and the local bus But this has to be done properly. Robust data take time operator, Southern Vectis, developed an innovative to collate, corroborate, clean up and publish. We continue community transport scheme. Local groups provide to receive information, which we use as it comes in, but volunteer drivers to operate rural routes that feed into we want an accurate picture once a year. the main bus network on the island. The drivers are The Department for Transport recently published the fully trained by the operator, which also provides the 2010-11 annual bus statistics, which show that compared vehicles and fulfils the regulatory and maintenance with the previous year the number of bus passenger requirements. This partnership has brought community journeys in England rose slightly, bus vehicle mileage transport and the resources of a private sector bus increased by a similar amount, and bus fares remained company together for the first time. It is a very interesting the same in real terms. That is a slightly different picture model. I am greatly encouraged that councils, operators from the one presented to us this afternoon. Figures for and residents can come together when budgets are tight 2011-12 will be available next year, but in the meantime to develop a rural bus network that suits their local there is no doubt that in some areas of the country a needs. It is exactly the sort of scheme that the community combination of the difficult macro-economic climate, transport fund I announced in March is designed to local authority bus cuts, and operator decisions is making encourage. 377WH Bus Services1 DECEMBER 2011 Bus Services 378WH

Paul Maynard: Will the Minister confirm that it is services. However, within the framework in which they interesting to note that the National Union of Rail, operate, some have managed to protect their services, Maritime and Transport Workers was fully behind the and, as in the case of Bedford, even enhance them. scheme in the Isle of Wight? Others have made limited cuts. Others have taken an axe to services. Those who live in Hartlepool and elsewhere Norman Baker: It is important to note that. That is a need to ask their councils why they have taken an axe to very relevant point and it leads me on, perhaps, to the services when other councils have not. points made by the hon. Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright). I am sorry that, unlike the Chairman of Mr Wright: If the Minister will let me continue with the Committee, who presented matters fairly and equitably, my rant, that Pontius Pilate approach to decision making albeit in a challenging way, he sought to present matters will not wash if he wants to be a champion of local bus as something of a party political rant. He was keen to services. Will he comment on the second part of my say that this was the Government’s fault, but the remarks, which concerned future financial arrangements Government have not cut bus services in Hartlepool—his and possible cuts to bus services as a result of the local council has. Councils up and down the country announcements in the autumn statement? have not been cutting bus services, and if all the services in Hartlepool have disappeared he needs to take the matter up with his local operator and council. Norman Baker: I will. I always try to respond to all points made by hon. Members, as those who have heard The picture varies enormously across the country. I me respond to debates will know. I will deal with those am not pretending that it is easy for local councils; it is points, but first I will deal with the points that the hon. perfectly true that there are challenges as a consequence Gentleman made during his speech. He said—I think of the local government settlement. Cuts have been that I am quoting him accurately—that we need a made across the country in local bus services, particularly complete change in how buses are regulated. I point out in supported ones. The Opposition spokesman, the that at the moment, the regulation of buses is a consequence hon. Member for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock) not just of deregulation in 1996 but of 13 years of his said, I think, that the Campaign for Better Transport Government between 1997 and 2010. The record will had found that three quarters of local authorities were show that when the Local Transport Bill was before the cutting back on buses. That is unwelcome, but the fact Commons and I was on the Committee considering it, remains that a quarter are not cutting back at all. I wanted to go much further in the direction that he is Perhaps we should look at them for lessons on how they now advocating than did the party of which he is a have managed to maintain their bus services rather than Member in 2008. cutting everything in sight, which appears to have happened in Hartlepool. Mr Wright: Will the Minister give way on that point? Julie Hilling: Perhaps one of the things that should be considered is the level of cuts made to those local Norman Baker: I will, but I need to make progress. authorities. We know that the same cuts have not been made everywhere, and that some local authorities, particularly those in the north-west, north-east and Mr Wright: The Minister has had 18 months in office. other areas, have had far greater cuts than some authorities He has just set out his approach. When will he enact it? in the south, which have had much less stringent budgetary cuts. Norman Baker: I will not give way again, as I am trying to answer the hon. Gentleman’s points, and he is Norman Baker: The hon. Lady will appreciate that anticipating me all the time. The fact is that we now I am not responsible for how the Department for have a regulatory framework that his Government put Communities and Local Government has distributed in place in the Local Transport Act, and the record will its money, and I cannot comment on that in detail. show that it would have gone more in the direction that What I would say, having looked at bus patterns across the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness wanted if his the country, is that it is not the case that southern Government had accepted the amendments that I tabled counties have maintained their bus services while northern at the time. ones have not. The picture is much more mixed. The Our position has been set out clearly. The Government East Riding of Yorkshire, for example, has done well on await the results of the Competition Commission’s inquiry. maintaining bus services. A north-south split is not It would be premature to make judgments about the reflected in the way she suggests. landscape of the bus market until it has reported. We will read the Competition Commission report carefully, John Woodcock: What the Minister has said is potentially consider the arrangements for the bus service operators important and will be listened to by councils throughout grant at the same time and in parallel and make it clear the country. Is he actually saying that if any council cuts where we are going as soon as we have had a chance to bus services, it is the council’s fault and not a result of digest the final report. That is the responsible course of the drastic reductions in local funding imposed on action, given where the Competition Commission is at councils by the Government? present. Norman Baker: What I am saying—I hope that I have said it fairly—is that it is a challenging position for local Julie Hilling: Will the Minister give way? authorities. They have received reductions in funding, which has meant difficult decisions for them, and I can Norman Baker: Yes, but for the last time, as I need to understand why some of them have looked to their bus make some progress. 379WH Bus Services1 DECEMBER 2011 Bus Services 380WH

Julie Hilling: I thank the Minister for giving way; he I want to ensure that we consider that issue in our is being generous with his time. My question is simple: response to the Competition Commission’s inquiry into have we any idea when the commission is likely to the bus market. It is not for us in Government to start report? telling people how much they should charge for buses in Kettering or anywhere else, but we must ensure that the Norman Baker: Yes. We will have clarity from the system and the market work properly, which is what we commission, and clarity from the Government on BSOG, are trying to achieve as part of our consideration of the in the early part of next year. We will then be able to Competition Commission responses. answer questions in more detail based on what the I was interested in the point made by my hon. Friend commission has said. the Member for Milton Keynes South about the deal I think that it is unfair to paint the autumn statement reached between the council and Arriva to provide a in the negative way the hon. Member for Hartlepool 50p rate before 9.30. It is an exceedingly interesting idea did. He said that things would get worse. I do not want that a bus company and a council can come together to to have a debate about the finances, as this is not the create a new, innovative arrangement that meets the place to do it, but I will give one statistic. The day after needs of local people and, presumably, the bus company the general election, our interest rates were higher than as well. We need more arrangements such as that, and I Italy’s. They are now lower than Germany’s, which hope that we will see what we can do to encourage such suggests that the Government are handling the economic innovation across the country. position rather better than he gives us credit for. In addition to the money for green buses announced Iain Stewart: I would like to place it on record that a this week and for retrofitting existing buses, the Chancellor key body instrumental in brokering that deal was the gave transport authorities another £50 million this week Milton Keynes Pensioners Association. It required good in his statement. I hardly think that this has been a bad work on all sides, but the association had an instrumental week for transport, or for local authorities as far as role in helping that deal be struck. transport is concerned. It seems to be a good week in terms of what has been handed out. Norman Baker: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for rightly putting that point on record. I mentioned that the Competition Commission’s report would be published shortly.The Department has submitted Several Members raised the importance of consultation. its formal written response to the provisional remedies, I welcome the Transport Committee’s emphasis on it, which is available to view on the Competition Commission’s and it is right that Members have mentioned it here. It is website. In the response, I broadly welcomed the provisional also right that councils and operators considering changing remedies. I believe that they have potential to improve services consult properly. It is clear from the evidence multi-operator bus ticketing in particular, and I welcome that the Committee and I have seen that there are some the commission’s focus on that issue in its recent inquiry good examples and some pretty ropey ones. The message into the bus market. There is no question but that better that I want to give to bus companies and local councils integrated ticketing can help by enabling passengers to is that they must consult properly and take into account make more seamless journeys. Smart ticketing can also the consequences of any changes that they propose. play an important role. That is why I have committed to Actually, if they consult properly, they often get some delivering, with operators and public sector bodies, the good and constructive responses and end up with a infrastructure to enable most public transport journeys solution that is better than the one proposed, not just to be undertaken using smart ticketing by December for customers but for the company. 2014, to answer the point raised by my hon. Friend the The Chair of the Transport Committee asked when Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys. I expect we will know what the Association of Transport I mentioned the Local Transport Act 2008. There has Coordinating Officers is doing with its assessment. I been some concern that the provisional remedies have mentioned the annual statistics, but the ATCO assessment been ambiguous in terms of the tools in the Act that is happening now, and we expect the results early in the can enable authorities to increase the quality of services, new year. There is no reason why the Department so let me be clear. Statutory quality partnership schemes, should not share that with the Committee as and when quality contract schemes and voluntary and qualifying it comes to us, so I will ask my officials to ensure that we agreements remain useful tools for local transport are in touch with the Chairman then. authorities to deliver their public transport policies. The tool kit has been mentioned by a number of That is the present position. The Government have Members. Passenger Focus is gathering evidence from taken no action to undermine quality partnerships or local authorities and bus operators to find examples of quality contracts. We will consider where we are after good practice. It is receiving good support from the the Competition Commission has reported. In the mean authorities it has contacted and we expect to see a first time, it is perfectly open to local authorities to use the draft in January, so we and Passenger Focus are making terms of the 2008 Act. It is available on the statute book good, swift progress, which is rightly important to Members for them to use if they decide that that is what they want present. to do. The only other points that I want to pick up on are The hon. Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling) two of the issues to which the Chairman of the Committee discussed the general price of bus fares. She is absolutely referred—namely the bus service operator grant and the right to express concerns about that. Over the past concessionary fares reimbursement formula. Contrary 30 years, the trend has been that the average cost of to the information that has just been provided by the travelling by bus has increased more than the average hon. Member for Barrow and Furness, it is a fact that cost of travelling by train or car. We recognise that the Confederation of Passenger Transport UK, to which buses are used disproportionately by poorer people. I spoke immediately after the spending review, told me 381WH Bus Services1 DECEMBER 2011 Bus Services 382WH that, in general terms, it felt that the BSOG reduction, the situation. If, on the other hand, they win their given the notice that we had given and the limited appeal, it shows that local authorities have not been amount of reduction, was one that it could in general sufficiently reimbursing them on a no better, no worse-off absorb without fares rising or services being cut. That is basis. The legislation has not changed at all. I think what the industry told me. I am happy to give the hon. that, to some extent, the argument is something of a Gentleman the exact quote if he wants. That is what it diversion. said. I am very conscious of the importance of buses in our country. I do not underestimate the difficulties of John Woodcock: I am aware of the quote, but does local councils in particular, and I am concerned about the Minister accept that, while it is one thing to look at the level of supported services in some parts of the that in isolation, the situation is entirely different if we country, as opposed to the commercial services, which I combine it with the two other substantial cuts faced by think are, by and large, all right. We need to see the the industry, and that it is simply unrealistic to expect picture across the country. One effect of localism is that things to remain the same? some councils are handling this very well while others are handling it very badly. It is not for us to say that a Norman Baker: There is an issue as to the extent to local council must follow a particular procedure, but I which other elements of what is happening in the wider think it is the right of people in those areas to ask why market, including the price of fuel, what is happening in there are no buses in their council area while they are the world market, the eurozone or any other factors running very well indeed across the border. That is a outside our control, affect the operation of bus services. legitimate function for local people to practise. The hon. Gentleman has referred specifically to the We have supplied a lot of help to the bus industry in BSOG reduction and the industry has given me a specific the way I have described—through the green bus fund, response. That is what it said and we should stick the local sustainable transport fund and the money with it. that the Chancellor has given this week—and I hope to On the concessionary fare reimbursement formula, make further helpful announcements in the not too we have not changed, in any shape or form, the legislation distant future. that we inherited from the previous Government. It requires councils and transport authorities to deal with 5.23 pm operators in a way that reimburses them so that they are no worse off and no better off from handling concessionary Mrs Ellman: I thank Members for their constructive fares. That is a legal requirement and it has not changed. contributions, which I hope will help us to improve bus All we have done is issue guidance to indicate to local services. I also thank the members of my Committee, authorities how they should perhaps discharge that who today displayed the enthusiasm, commitment and function. They are under no obligation to follow that knowledge that has helped to make this report effective. guidance if they do not wish to do so. The remedy for It will be even more effective if it changes the situation, bus companies that are unhappy with that is to go to an as I hope it will. Buses matter and my Committee independent appeal. Not very many of them have done intends to continue to attach to them the importance so and not many appeals have been won. If bus companies that they deserve. are receiving less money from local authorities and are Question put and agreed to. not seeking to appeal, or do not win appeals, that suggests that they were overpaid previously, contrary to 5.24 pm the terms of the legislation. That is a simple analysis of Sitting adjourned.

65WS Written Ministerial Statements1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 66WS

9. We will empower students by providing better access to Written Ministerial quality information to make informed choices, determined by a better understanding of opportunities for further learning and employment destinations. Simultaneously, to assure quality, Statements we will take swift action in relation to failing provision, providing intensive support and, if necessary, intervening to ensure that alternative and innovative delivery approaches Thursday 1 December 2011 are secured for the future. 10. We will build on the growing international demand for practical, technical and higher-level vocational skills. Inspired by the legacy of our achievements at WorldSkills 2011, we BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS will stimulate and support the sector to take advantage of opportunities in the global market.

Further Education Reforms: Building a Pre-Council Written Ministerial Statement: EU World Class System Competitiveness Council

The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David Learning (Mr John Hayes): The Government are today Willetts): My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under- publishing “New Challenges, New Chances: Further Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, Education and Skills System Reform Plan: Building a Baroness Wilcox, has today made the following statement. World Class Skills System” and the underpinning skills The EU Competitiveness Council will take place in Brussels on investment statement for 2011-2014, copies of which 5 and 6 December 2011. I shall represent the UK on internal are being sent to all hon. Members and placed in the market and industry issues on 5 December, and my right hon. Library. Friend the Minister of State for Universities and Science will represent the UK on research issues on 6 December. Our vision is for a further education and skills system The internal market and industry substantive agenda items on in England freed as far as possible from central bureaucratic 5 December will be: a policy debate on enhanced co-operation in burdens, thus able to respond more effectively to the the area of the creation of unitary patent protection; a policy needs of local learners and employers and so make the debate on unitary patent protection with regard to the applicable maximum possible contribution to renewed growth. translation arrangements; agreement of general approach for proposals for a directive regarding interconnection of central, Our plan is based on 10 key policy commitments: commercial and companies registers; a presentation by the 1. We will empower learners—from basic through to higher-level Commission regarding business competitiveness and SME skills—to shape the system through their participation. First-class programme; a policy debate on a unified patent court and draft information will inform their choices, with Government statute; adoption of Council conclusions for the industrial policy funding focused on supporting students where it can have flagship initiative; adoption of Council conclusions on impact most impact. assessment in the Council; an exchange of views on results from 2. We will launch a national careers service in April 2012 to the single market forum; and; adoption of Council conclusions provide information, advice and guidance which both informs regarding customs co-operation with eastern neighbouring countries. and stimulates demand for further education, work-based A number of other items will be discussed under AoB. This will training and higher education. Lifelong learning accounts comprise of Commission presentations and updates on the following: will equip learners with the information they need to make European shipbuilding; the most of their learning opportunities. Proposal for a regulation on European standardization; 3. We will create a vocational pathway as navigable, rigorous Proposal to align product harmonisation directives to decision and attractive as the academic route, so recalibrating the 768/2008 (NLF); character of higher learning. Results of the European tourism forum and informal ministerial 4. We will develop and promote excellent teaching, by establishing meeting; an independent commission on adult education and vocational Results of the conference on the implementation of lead pedagogy to develop a sector-owned strategy and delivery markets initiative and the European innovation partnerships programme. We will also facilitate an independent review of (Warsaw, 26-27 October 2011); professionalism in the FE and skills work force. Single Market Act implementation; 5. We will take further action to ensure that qualifications Services directive: state of implementation; are of high quality and comprehensible, by improving awareness Consumer market scoreboard; of the qualifications and credit framework—consulting Proposal for a regulation on a European observatory on employers on their engagement in qualification development— counterfeiting and piracy; and by consulting on the character and function of national Proposal for a directive on the protection of orphan works; occupational standards. Proposal for a regulation of the European Parliament and of 6. We will take action to remove restrictions and controls on the Council concerning customs enforcement of intellectual college corporations, creating new roles for governors, working property rights; closely with other educational providers in post-14 learning, Proposal for a directive on alternative dispute resolution with local stakeholders taking the lead in developing delivery (ADR) and proposal for a regulation on online dispute models to meet the needs of their communities. resolution (ODR); 7. We will continue our programme to free the FE system Proposal for a regulation of the European Parliament and of from central control, building upon the successes already the Council on a consumer programme (2014-2020); achieved, including further work by the Skills Funding Agency with colleges to remove bureaucratic burdens. Cohesion policy; 8. We will provide £3.8 billion a year of public funding to the REACH: Report and review in the light of EU competitiveness; sector and we will create a simple transparent funding system and that is both robust in ensuring funding enables high-quality REACH and the candidate list of substances of very high provision that delivers good value for money, and which concern; responds to local needs. Work programme of the incoming Danish presidency. 67WS Written Ministerial Statements1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 68WS

The research substantive agenda items on 6 December will be: authorities are best placed to understand the barriers to a presentation and exchange of views of the framework programme growth in their areas, the needs of their local communities for research and innovation (Horizon 2020); a Commission overview and lead a mature debate about the benefits that growth on progress towards agreeing the Euratom framework programme can bring. There are already good examples of local for 2012-13; adoption of Council conclusions regarding launching of joint programming initiatives on “Healthy and Productive Seas authorities using the bonus in a variety of ways. For and Oceans”; “The microbial challenge—An emerging threat to example Wychavon is returning up to 40% to the community human health”; “Connecting Climate Knowledge for Europe where growth is taking place. Liverpool are reinvesting (Clik’EU)”; “Urban Europe—Global Challenges, Local Solutions”; in a commitment to deliver 2,000 new homes. The Vale “Water Challenges for a Changing World”; and adoption of of White Horse is investing in business growth by Council conclusions on partnering in research and innovation. making the car parks free in the three local market There will also be an adoption of space Council orientations on towns of Abingdon, Wantage and Faringdon. the value of space for the security of European citizens. The new homes bonus is a key part of our ambition, The research, space and any other business items will comprise of information from the Commission regarding active and healthy set out in the local growth White Paper, to create a ageing; a presentation by the Commission on the European earth fairer and more balanced economy through encouraging monitoring programme (GMES); information from the Hungarian growth. It will sit alongside the Government’s proposals delegation regarding the Budapest declaration on agricultural to allow local authorities to benefit from economic research; and information from the presidency regarding the growth by the local retention of business rates. Our report on the high level ministerial group on simplification. reformed community infrastructure levy allows local The Government’s objectives for the Council are: authorities to ensure development contributes to the To contribute to a debate on political aspects of the patents infrastructure needed to support growth and will give package (the patent regulation, languages regulation and the people a real say in spending to deal with the impacts of unified patent court); growth on their neighbourhoods. Confirm agreement with Council conclusions or general approaches with respect to companies registers, industrial On top of these provisional allocations, we will address policy and customs co-operation; any loss of new homes bonus in areas affected by last Further progress on impact assessment in Council; summer’s riots through riot recovery funds. Express the UK’s initial views on the Horizon 2020 proposals; Local authorities will have until 30 December to and make representations on their provisional allocations. Agree new joint programming initiatives and conclusions on The Department has written to local authorities with partnering in research and innovation. details for making representations on their authority’s provisional allocations and I have also written to all Members of Parliament in England. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT A full list of the provisional allocations is being placed in the Library of the House. Further information New Homes Bonus on the bonus, including the first “New Homes Bonus Bulletin—Unlocking the Bonus” can be found at The Minister for Housing and Local Government (Grant www.communities.gov.uk/housing/housingsupply/ Shapps): Today, 1 am pleased to announce the delivery newhomesbonus. of 159,000 more homes over the last year, and £431 million A copy of the bulletin is also in the Library of the of Government funding to local authorities. House. The new homes bonus is a powerful, simple and transparent incentive for housing growth. It is a key EDUCATION part of the housing growth focus of our national housing strategy, which we published on 21 November. Commenced School Admissions and School Admission Appeals in April 2011, the bonus is based on the council tax of Codes additional homes and those brought back into use, with an additional amount for affordable homes, for the The Minister of State, Department for Education following six years. It ensures that those local authorities (Mr Nick Gibb): I am today laying the revised “School which promote and welcome growth can share in its Admissions and School Admission Appeals Codes” economic benefits, and build the communities in which (“the Codes”) before Parliament as required under section people want to live and work. 85 of the School Standards and Framework Act 1998. The bonus will be paid in respect of 159,000 homes Subject to the views of Parliament, these codes will from October 2010 to October 2011 including 137,000 come into force on 1 February 2012. A copy of these extra homes and 22,000 long-term empty properties codes has also been published on the departmental brought back into use. The allocations also include the website, so that schools and local authorities can take first affordable homes enhancement, which totals account of the technical changes that have been made £21 million in respect of 61,000 new affordable homes. to the codes since their publication on 2 November. This means we will pay councils £431 million of The White Paper, “The Importance of Teaching”, provisional new homes bonus for local authorities in outlined the intention to England. This includes the second instalment of “simplify the code so that it is easier for schools and parents to £199 million in respect of year 1 and £232 million for understand and act upon, while maintaining fairness as the housing growth in year 2. guiding principle”. We are committed to ensuring that the bonus remains As part of the consultation process we consulted on a a flexible, non-ringfenced fund, for local communities number of key policy changes that are set out below, all to spend as they see fit—from reinvesting it in housing of which are intended to deal with issues which we or infrastructure, support local services or local facilities, believe create unfairness in the system, or which frustrate or using the funds to keep council tax down. Local or confuse parents. 69WS Written Ministerial Statements1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 70WS

The current codes have evolved over a number of two documents that further demonstrate the Government’s years with successive versions adding further regulations commitment to managing our existing nuclear legacy in a chaotic and unplanned fashion. As a result, the and sites in a responsible manner: admissions system has grown unnecessarily complex the conclusions of its consultation on the long term management and bureaucratic, comprising some 130 pages of densely of UK-owned separated civil plutonium and; worded text, with more than 650 mandatory requirements. our response to the recommendations for Government contained These revised codes are less than half the size of the in the chief nuclear inspector’s final report on events at previous codes and are simpler, fairer and easier to the Fukushima nuclear site in Japan that was published on understand. We have removed much of the repetition 11 October 2011. and unnecessary material, whilst retaining the key Management of the UK’s plutonium stocks safeguards to ensure that school places can be allocated in a clear and transparent manner. The consultation was published in February and set out for public scrutiny Government’s preliminary view The Department consulted extensively on the codes on the long-term management of the UK’s plutonium. from 27 May to 19 August and received more than In particular, the consultation covered the security and 1,330 responses with 700 from parents, as well as a wide proliferation sensitivities associated with continued storage range of interested parties, including local authorities, of plutonium, and how these could best be managed in dioceses and head teachers. Overall, respondents broadly the interests of future generations. welcomed the proposals to slim down the codes. The consultation document made it clear that, although These codes make a number of changes to the current there remain many issues to be resolved before any codes: policy could be implemented, the UK Government Giving greater freedom to schools to increase the number of believed that there was sufficient information available places they are able to offer by removing the duty to consult to make a high-level judgment as to the right strategic locally and the ability to object when a school increases its admission numbers; policy option for plutonium management. The Government therefore proposed a preliminary policy view to pursue Ensuring that any child who leaves public care through reuse of plutonium as mixed oxide fuel (MOX); converting adoption, a residence order or special guardianship order, will continue to be given the same priority although they are the vast majority of UK civil separated plutonium into no longer looked after by the state; fuel for use in civil nuclear reactors. Any remaining Making the co-ordination of admissions to primary schools plutonium whose condition is such that it cannot be administratively simpler through a single date, 16 April, each converted into MOX, will be immobilised and treated year when offers of school places are made from 2014 onwards; as a waste for disposal. Allowing schools to prioritise the children of staff either Having considered all responses received during the employed at the school for at least two years, or who will consultation period the UK Government have concluded meet a clear skills shortage; that they have identified the right preliminary view. Allowing infant classes to exceed the statutory limit to avoid Accordingly, the Government confirm this as the preferred separating children from a multiple birth, and for children of policy. While the UK Government believe they have armed forces personnel admitted outside of the normal sufficient information to set out a direction, it is not yet admission round; sufficient to make a specific decision to proceed with Allowing schools to take direct applications from parents for procuring a new MOX plant. Only when the Government in-year applications; are confident that their preferred option could be Prohibiting the use of random allocation as the principal implemented safely and securely, that is affordable, method of allocating places across a local authority area; deliverable, and offers value for money, will they be in a Requiring admission authorities to consult on unchanged position to proceed with a new MOX plant. If we arrangements only every seven years, rather than three; cannot establish a means of implementation that satisfies Reflecting changes in the Education Act 2011, allowing these conditions then the way forward may need to be anyone to object to the schools adjudicator about admission revised. arrangements, and enabling objections about academies’admission arrangements to be referred to the schools adjudicator; and The Government are now commencing the next phase of work, which will provide the information required to Greater clarity on decision-making and related processes for appeals, to ensure greater uniformity and to reduce costs make such a decision. The next steps towards will see across the system. further information being gathered by the Government and NDA through detailed commercial discussions on In addition, as highlighted in the code, but achieved the market for MOX fuel and the availability of reactors through individual funding agreements, we will be allowing in which it can be burned. Other discussions will focus academies and free schools to prioritise pupils eligible on detailing the costs and time scales for procuring for the pupil premium. services or facilities, including a suitable MOX plant, which can be delivered at minimum risk to Government. Further workstreams will take forward the requirements for the justification of the whole MOX path from ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE fabrication, through use to disposal, which will be required before UK Government can commit to spending significant capital on procuring a new MOX fabrication plant. Nuclear Energy (Governmental Responses) In addition, the Government have concluded that overseas owners of plutonium stored in the UK could, The Minister of State, Department of Energy and subject to commercial terms that are acceptable to UK Climate Change (Charles Hendry): The Department of Government, have their plutonium managed alongside Energy and Climate Change (DECC) will today publish UK plutonium, in line with a reuse policy. Where 71WS Written Ministerial Statements1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 72WS appropriate and subject to compliance with inter- this Parliament, but beyond that will galvanise jobs and governmental agreements and commercial arrangements investment during a decade of mass deployment of key that again, are acceptable to Government, the UK technologies. would be prepared to take ownership of overseas plutonium In the next decade, the UK will complete the cost-effective stored in the UK after which it would be managed measures begun in the previous decade, in particular alongside UK plutonium, again in line with a reuse focusing on energy efficiency. We will also need to policy. prepare for the future by demonstrating and deploying While converting the plutonium into MOX is the the key technologies needed to entirely decarbonise most credible and technologically mature option, the power, buildings and road transport in the 2020s and Government remain open to any alternative proposals beyond. Rather than picking winners, the Government for plutonium management that offer better value to will support the development of a portfolio of technologies the taxpayer, and will seek to gather more data on all for each sector in order to drive innovation and lower options. costs. As part of the carbon plan, we are publishing the Copies of the consultation response have been placed updated list of the key actions that each Government in Libraries of both Houses or can be obtained from Department and the devolved Administrations are taking the DECC website. in each sector during the lifetime of this Parliament, to provide further transparency and accountability. http://www.decc.gov.uk/consultations/Default.aspx? status=28&area=0 In the 2020s, these key technologies will move towards Weightman report on events at the Fukushima nuclear mass roll out. Developing options now will not only site reduce the costs of deployment in the 2020s, but it will I welcome the findings and recommendations in also enable the UK to gain a long-term competitive Dr Weightman’s report and commend him and his team advantage. on the important work that they have undertaken in Up to 2030 and beyond, emissions from the hard-to-treat pulling together information and lessons from the events sectors, such as industry, shipping and agriculture will in Japan. need to be tackled. This will require a range of solutions In the response the Government set out work we have to be tested in the 2020s at the latest, such as more done or intend to do in implementing Dr Weightman’s efficient practices in agriculture; switching from oil and recommendations, including: gas to bioenergy or low-carbon electricity in industrial Continuing to work with our international partners on processes; and deploying carbon capture and storage. nuclear safety, particularly through the development of the Today’s package represents a significant step forward IAEA director-general’s “Action Plan”. in our commitment of moving to a low-carbon economy. Taking forward work from the nuclear emergency planning To the negotiators in Durban working this week and liaison group review of the UKs national nuclear emergency next to make progress on a global agreement on climate arrangements in the light of the experience of dealing with change, the carbon plan shows the UK is walking the the prolonged Japanese event. walk, demonstrating that even in tough times it can be Ensuring that openness and transparency are enshrined in done and living up to our promise to show climate the work we are taking forward to create the ONR as a leadership. statutory body. To the public and businesses at home, rightly worried Copies of the Government response have been placed about the cost of living and state of the economy, the in Libraries of both Houses or can be obtained from carbon plan shows that the gradual rebalancing of our the DECC website. economy away from carbon is achievable and, in the http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/meeting_energy/nuclear/ long run, highly desirable. safety_and_sec/weightman/weightman.aspx. Our national economic interest is to be found in a cost-effective transition to low-carbon. Every bit of progress we make is one more step away from import dependency, away from the emissions that are likely to The Carbon Plan lead to savage weather impacts, and towards an economy that wastes less and saves more.

The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Chris Huhne): The Government are today publishing ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS the carbon plan, setting out the Government’s long-term plans to meet its carbon targets, including the fourth Live Animal Exports (Clarification of Minister’s carbon budget set earlier this year. The plan shows how Comments) doing so will set us on a plausible pathway to our 2050 target to reduce emissions by at least 80% from 1990 levels. The plan will help drive new high-value economic The Minister of State, Department for Environment, sectors and save billions through energy efficiency. Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): During a The carbon plan shows that UK emissions have debate on 24 October 2011, Official Report, column already been cut by more than 25% on 1990 levels. With 146, I made reference to a Mr Onderwater being prosecuted the policies already in place the economy will easily for cruelty following the earlier reference by the hon. exceed the 34% target set for the first 15 years under the Member for South Thanet (Laura Sandys) to business Climate Change Act, and would have done so even if men who were involved with the operation of a livestock the recession had not occurred. Meeting the fourth ferry at Ramsgate who had been convicted of animal carbon budget of a 50% cut in emissions by the mid-2020s cruelty. I regret the information I gave was not accurate will not have any additional cost implications during and I wish to apologise to the House. 73WS Written Ministerial Statements1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 74WS

Mr Onderwater runs a Dutch registered company The protocol allotted to the United Kingdom one called Onderwater Agneaux BV. He pleaded guilty on additional seat in the European Parliament. As the behalf of his company at Folkestone magistrates’ court statement on 26 October 2010 by the Parliamentary on 5 July 2010 to six offences of not displaying any sign Secretary, Cabinet Office, the hon. Member for Forest on his vehicles indicating the presence of live animals of Dean (Mr Harper) set out, the Electoral Commission contrary to article 6(c) of the Welfare of Animals undertook an independent analysis to determine which (Transport) (England) Order 2006 and article 6(3) of European electoral region in the United Kingdom the Council Regulation (EC) No. 1/2005 on the protection new MEP should be assigned to. As a result of its of animals during transport. The prosecutor was the analysis the Electoral Commission, in compliance with trading standards department of Kent county council. its obligations under the European Parliament Mr Onderwater had also mis-described the cargo of (Representation) Act 2003, decided that the west midlands live animals in consignment notes as seafood, frozen should be the recipient region. The Government accepted meat and boxed meat: the Crown court found this was this recommendation. in order to deceive the ferry companies. Mr Onderwater The returning officer for the west midlands region had been informed on several occasions that he was referred to the results of the 2009 European elections, contravening the legislation by not displaying such signs as if the extra seat had been available in the west yet the company continued to commit the same offence midlands electoral region in those elections. This method in the two months following first detection. of filling the seat is in accordance with the terms of the On 1 September 2009, 320 sheep were transported described protocol and is in line with the practice of most of the as meat. other member states which gain additional MEPs under On 30 September 2009, an unspecified number of sheep the protocol. In accordance with the procedure set out described as meat for further processing. in schedule 2 of the European Union Act 2011, the On 11 November 2009, 240 sheep described as meat. returning officer has declared Anthea McIntyre to be On 14 November 2009, 307 sheep described as seafood— returned as the additional MEP for the west midlands. Mr Onderwater was driving this lorry. This is an interim measure until the next elections to Also on 14 November 2009, 286 sheep described as boxed the European Parliament take place in June 2014. At meat. those elections all UK MEPs, including the MEP for On 19 November 2009, 270 sheep described as frozen meat. this extra seat, will then be elected in compliance with He was fined £1,000 for each offence, with costs of the normal procedure. £4,355. Mr Onderwater represented his company at an appeal against this sentence at Canterbury Crown court on JUSTICE 10 August 2010. On appeal the total fine remained at £6,000 but costs were reduced by £680 to £3,675. His Legal Aid Reform (Competitive Tendering) Honour Judge O’Sullivan fined the company £400 for the first offence, £800 for the second offence, £1,000 each for the third, fourth and fifth offences and £1,800 The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice for the sixth offence. (Mr Kenneth Clarke): The Government set out their His Honour Judge O’Sullivan said in his sentencing intention to introduce competition for the procurement remarks that there was no offence which involved of legally aided services in “Proposals for the Reform of “mistreatment of animals”but that the company’s persistent Legal Aid in England and Wales” (November 2010). offending despite being caught made it quite clear that The consultation paper stated that the immediate focus the company had no intention of trying to abide by the would be on criminal legal aid, with civil and family regulations. The judge noted that there is a wider use for legal aid to be addressed over a longer period. The these signs to indicate the presence of live animals on response to the consultation (June 2011) stated that vehicles and that it is important, for instance, in case of proposals for criminal legal aid competition would be an accident that the cargo can be identified as being published in a separate consultation paper during 2011. livestock so that the necessary measures for safeguarding This statement provides an update on the Government’s the welfare of the animals can be put into operation. position in relation to competition and criminal legal aid services, and a timetable for future activity. The Government believe that competitive tendering is likely to be the best way to ensure long-term sustainability FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE and value for money in the legal aid market. Pressure on legal aid expenditure is likely to continue, increasing the need for further reform of the current arrangements for Protocol Providing for Additional Members of the administratively set remuneration rates in the absence European Parliament of competition. The Government believe that tendering criminal defence The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): Following work for competition, alongside regulatory changes, ratification by all 27 member states of the European has the potential to significantly modernise legal aid Union, the protocol amending Protocol No. 36 to provision, improve the service provided to legal aid the EU treaties on transitional provisions, which made clients, streamline the procurement process and deliver amendments to the composition of the European value for money for the taxpayer. Parliament, entered into force on 1 December 2011. Clearly the development of a competition strategy The protocol was approved for the purposes of section 5 will be likely to have a substantial impact on the market of the European Union (Amendment) Act 2008 by for legally aided services, as will a number of other section 15 of the European Union Act 2011. current developments. These changes will require significant 75WS Written Ministerial Statements1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 76WS levels of engagement between the Government and the WORK AND PENSIONS profession. We plan to begin these discussions in early 2013 once the key components of our legal aid reform package, the regulatory changes allowing alternative Child Support Maintenance Calculation business structures, and the introduction of the quality Regulations 2012 assurance scheme for advocates have had time to bed down. We will publish a full formal consultation document on the competition strategy towards the end of that The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work year. The indicative timetable for the development of and Pensions (Maria Miller): I am today publishing a our competition strategy is therefore as follows: consultation document on the calculation methodology for the new statutory child maintenance scheme, to be Consultation paper published: Autumn 2013 launched next year. Response to consultation paper: Spring 2014 The Government want to encourage and support Tender opens in first Autumn 2014 parents to make their own family-based arrangements, competition areas: but are committed to providing a statutory service for First contracts go live: Summer 2015 those separated parents who are unable to co-operate. I would also like to inform the House that we intend, As part of our programme of reforms, the existing subject to parliamentary approval of the Legal Aid, Child Support Agency schemes will be replaced over Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill, to implement time with a new, efficient scheme for those parents who all of the legal aid reforms in April 2013. This will are unable to make their own arrangements. include the abolition of the Legal Services Commission The aim of the new scheme is to produce a faster, under the Bill and the creation of the new agency in its more accurate and transparent process for assessing place. child maintenance payments. Payments will usually be based on the non-resident parent’s latest tax year gross income, sourced directly from HM Revenue and Customs. This will make the scheme less dependent on information from non-resident parents and so make it harder for PRIME MINISTER non-resident parents to avoid their responsibilities by not disclosing their full income. Annual reviews will ensure that cases are kept up to Libya Crisis date in a way they are not on the current CSA schemes. I am also announcing two proposals today which The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): I am today would provide particular benefit to parents with care, publishing in full the National Security Adviser’s review who are generally mothers with children. of how the Whitehall machine operated during the The Child Maintenance and Other Payments Act 2008 Libya conflict and what lessons we can learn, in keeping provided for the flat rate paid by non-resident parents with the commitment I made to the House on 5 September. on benefit and low income to be increased from the I told the House on 21 March that I believed that current £5 to £7. I am today consulting on whether this military intervention was necessary, legal and right to should be increased further to help ensure more children protect the people of Libya from the brutality of the receive the financial support they need. Gaddafi regime, and I pay tribute to the courage and I am also consulting on achieving a fairer situation professionalism of our armed forces during this conflict. for children to get closer to equalising the financial There remains much to do to secure a successful transition support for children living with, and those living apart to a peaceful and prosperous democracy, and we will from, the non-resident parent. continue to assist the interim Libyan Government. But The consultation document, the impact assessments our armed forces, our diplomats and development experts and draft regulations will be available on the Child who re-established the British presence in Benghazi and Maintenance and Enforcement Commission (CMEC) Tripoli, and all those in the UK who contributed to the and Department for Work and Pensions websites later success of the international effort, can be proud of the today. A link to the CMEC website is attached below. part they have already played. Copies of the consultation document and the impact The National Security Council proved its worth in assessment will be placed in the Libraries of both ensuring effective co-ordination of this country’s Houses. contribution throughout the crisis in Libya. But it is http://www.childmaintenance.org/en/publications/ always right to learn the lessons after any conflict. In consultations.html. addition to the areas where things went well, Sir Peter Ricketts’ review has also highlighted a number of lessons for future conflicts, including the importance of swift EEA Opt-in Decision evacuation of UK nationals; integrating better economic analysis and policy more prominently at the early stages of conflict planning; and establishing a clearer cross- The Minister of State, Department for Work and Government process for the negotiation of United Nations Pensions (Chris Grayling): The Government are committed Security Council Resolutions. to the free movement of workers within the European Copies of the review of lessons learned from Libya economic area, and also to protecting the sustainability have been placed in the Libraries of both Houses. The and affordability of our welfare systems. As part of that review is also available on the No. 10 website. commitment we want to ensure that non-active migrants 77WS Written Ministerial Statements1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 78WS from outside the EU cannot gain access to welfare if In response to concerns raised about this proposal, they have never worked or paid contributions in the the Government announced that they would not remove United Kingdom. the mobility component from people in residential care In considering proposals to amend the social security homes from October 2012 and that it would look again provisions of the EEA agreement, we took the view that at the underlying evidence and gather more, before the proposals would have the effect of extending social reaching a final decision on the way forward for the new security co-ordination to non-active persons moving personal independence payment. We have now gathered between the EU and EEA. Furthermore, the proposal and reviewed further evidence, including the helpful was based on treaty powers for the co-ordination of contribution provided by Lord Low’s review. Although social security schemes in relation to the free movement this does show that the issue of mobility needs for of workers within the EU (article 48 of the treaty on the people in residential care homes presents a complex and functioning of the European Union), whereas the provisions varied picture there was insufficient evidence of overlaps related to free movement between the EU and the EEA in funding provision to justify the withdrawal of the states. mobility component. In focusing on the nature and content of the proposal Having listened to the concerns raised and carefully rather than the cited legal base, the Government came considered the evidence, the Government will now table to the conclusion that the appropriate legal base was an amendment to the Welfare Reform Bill for consideration article 79(2)(b) TFEU, which allows the EU to adopt at Lords Report stage to remove the provision which measures concerning the free movement rights (including allows for withdrawal of the mobility component of social security rights) of third-country nationals. Article personal independence payment from residential care 79(2)(b) lies within title V of part III of the TFEU, and home residents. so the Government considered whether they wanted to opt in to the measures; and we concluded that we did UK Disability Strategy not want to opt in. In negotiations we continued to argue for a change to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work a title V legal base, and that the UK’s position be and Pensions (Maria Miller): I am pleased to announce reflected in the text, but were unsuccessful. The decision that today the discussion document, “Fulfilling Potential”, on the position to be adopted by the EU was put to the was published. This sets out the Government’s vision of Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Affairs enabling disabled people to fulfil their potential and Council in June 2011. The Government expressed our have opportunities to play a full role in society. serious concerns over the legal base for the proposal, “Fulfilling Potential” invites disabled people and their and noted our right to take further action. The Council organisations to help shape future policy and develop a decision was none the less adopted, and a further decision cohesive new cross-Government disability strategy. This giving effect to the measures was adopted in the EEA will be a key part of our commitment to breaking down Joint Committee on 1 July 2011. the barriers to social mobility and equal opportunities In parallel with these processes, we considered across faced by disabled people in Britain today. Government the options, including legal action, open “Fulfilling Potential” outlines three main areas for to us and we have decided to take direct action in the discussion: realising aspirations, increasing individual European Court on the basis that the article 48 legal control and changing attitudes and behaviours. It seeks base is incorrect and that the Council decision is therefore practical ways of making a real difference to disabled invalid. That action was initiated on 16 August by people’s lives, even in these difficult economic times. submitting an application on behalf of the UK to the The Government inherited a wide range of relevant Court of Justice of the European Union. strategic thinking including the Life Chances report, I believe this action demonstrates how seriously the the Independent Living Strategy, and the Roadmap Government take our obligation to protect our rights 2025. We will build on this and on the UK’s commitment under the treaty on the functioning of the European to the UN convention on the rights of disabled people. Union. We will work closely with the devolved Administrations Mobility Component in Residential Care to share best practice and strategic approaches. Following a three-month engagement period, we will publish our new strategy in spring next year. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Maria Miller): The Government are today Welfare Reform Bill (Conditionality and Sanctions announcing that the mobility component of disability Contingency Fund Advance) living allowance will not be removed from people living in residential care homes and that the mobility component of personal independence payment, which will replace The Minister of State, Department for Work and disability living allowance, will also be payable at both Pensions (Chris Grayling): The Department of Work the standard or enhanced rate to people in residential and Pensions has obtained approval for an advance care homes provided they satisfy the entitlement conditions. from the contingencies fund of £800,000 to allow for In the spending review 2010 it was announced that, the development of IT. This amount is part of the from October 2012, the disability living allowance mobility proposed investment in conditionality and sanctions component would be withdrawn from people in residential changes of £3 million agreed at the time of the spending care homes after 28 days. Our aims have always been to review. ensure not only protection of public funds but also that In October 2012, the conditionality and sanctions disabled people who live in residential care homes retain project will introduce a claimant commitment, designed their independence and are not prevented from getting to give greater clarity to claimants about the consequences out and about. of failing to comply with their job seeking or work 79WS Written Ministerial Statements1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 80WS preparation requirements. This will be underpinned by and IT changes, to enable the implementation of the a more robust sanctions regime with tougher sanctions new conditionality and sanctions regime in advance of for repeated non-compliance, and a revised hardship universal credit. regime. These changes will align current key benefits Parliamentary approval for additional resource and with the proposed policy for universal credit, which will capital of £3 million for this new service will be sought simplify the migration of existing claims on to universal in the supplementary estimate for the Department for credit from 2013. Work and Pensions. Pending that approval, urgent The advance from the Contingencies Fund will allow expenditure estimated at £800,000 will be met by a essential work to commence on detailed process design repayable cash advance from the Contingencies Fund. 1013W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1014W

planned replacement of disability living allowance with Written Answers to personal independence payments for claimants in Wales. [84300] Questions Mr David Jones: The Secretary of State for Wales, my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham Thursday 1 December 2011 (Mrs Gillan), and I have regular discussions with ministerial colleagues in the Department of Work and Pensions about welfare reform including reform of disability living allowance. SCOTLAND The Government are committed to supporting disabled Departmental Civil Proceedings people to lead independent lives. To achieve this we need to reform disability benefits to improve support Mr Jenkin: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland for disabled people and to make the benefit more responsive which organisations that have received funding from to their needs. The personal independence payment will his Department have brought legal proceedings against be more straight-forward and will help disabled people his Department in the last five years; which such who face the greatest challenges to remain independent organisations were not successful in their actions; and and lead full, active lives. whether his Department (a) applied and (b) was paid for costs in respect of such cases. [83894] PRIME MINISTER David Mundell: No organisation which received funding from the Scotland Office has brought legal proceeding Manor Dean Cottage against the Department in the last five years. Ian Austin: To ask the Prime Minister whether (a) he Departmental Eggs or (b) anyone acting on his behalf had discussions with (i) Lord Chadlington or (ii) anyone acting on his behalf Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for about Manor Dean Cottage prior to its purchase. Scotland what steps he is taking to ensure that the same [84336] standards of animal welfare for whole eggs apply to imported liquefied eggs procured by his Department. The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Member to [83760] the press briefing given by official spokesperson on 23 November 2011. A transcript of this is available on David Mundell: The Scotland Office does not procure theNo.10website: imported liquefied eggs. http://www.number10.gov.uk/news/morning-press-briefing- Departmental Food from-23-november-2011 Working Hours: EU Law Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what proportion of food sourced by his Department was procured from UK food producers in Mr MacShane: To ask the Prime Minister what recent discussions he has had with his European counterparts the latest period for which figures are available. [83761] on a UK opt-out from EU directives on working time; David Mundell: The Scotland Office procures very and if he will make a statement. [82872] few food products. In instructing caterers for events paid for by the Scotland Office, regard is had to whether The Prime Minister: I discuss a range of issues with the food was procured from UK food producers. European counterparts on a regular basis. The coalition agreement is clear that this Government will work to Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State limit the application of the working time directive in the for Scotland what steps his Department is taking to UK. We remain committed to the view that working ensure that it meets the Government’s buying people should be able to work the hours they choose. standards for food and catering. [83762] The UK has been clear to EU partners that any amendments to the working time directive must retain David Mundell: The Scotland Office procures very the opt-out for workers from the directive’s working few food products. In instructing caterers for events hours limit. paid for by the Scotland Office, regard is had to whether the caterers meet the Government’s buying standards for food and catering. INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY STANDARDS AUTHORITY COMMITTEE

WALES Freedom of Information

Personal Independence Payment Bob Russell: To ask the hon. Member for Broxbourne, representing the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent Jessica Morden: To ask the Secretary of State for Parliamentary Standards Authority, when information Wales what representations she has made to the Secretary on Freedom of Information (FOI) requests was last of State for Work and Pensions on the effect of her included on the IPSA website; for what reason none 1015W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1016W have been added since then; how many FOI requests specifications, all pork, bacon and sausages are supplied have been received since the website was last updated; from British producers. All fresh eggs are free range, and if he will make a statement. [81677] British Lion Quality assured. The proportion of fresh fruit and vegetables sourced Mr Charles Walker: The information requested falls from UK food producers varies according to seasonal within the responsibility of the Independent Parliamentary availability, but menus are constantly reviewed to make Standards Authority. I have asked IPSA to reply. best use of local, seasonal produce. Letter from Andrew McDonald, dated 28 November 2011: Times of Sittings As Chief Executive of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking about publication of Freedom of Information Elizabeth Truss: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, (FOI) requests on the IPSA website. Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of IPSA publishes a Freedom of Information disclosure log on its Commons Commission, what the average operating website providing full details of the requests and the responses cost is of the House of Commons on a sitting (a) provided. During the 2011/12 financial year there has been a lag Monday, (b) Tuesday, (c) Wednesday, (d) Thursday and in putting requests and answers on the website. Since early (e) Friday. [82602] November, we have been putting this right and as of today’s date (28 November 2011) all but four of the forty-nine requests for this John Thurso: Most of the House’s operating costs are financial year will be on the website. Hereafter, we plan to have fixed costs for salaries, ICT, accommodation and other completed answers on the website within two weeks of these facilities, and are only marginally affected by changes in answers being sent to the requestor. the number of sitting days each year, the length of sittings or the specific weekdays on which these sittings are held. A meaningful average operating cost of a HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION sitting on a particular weekday cannot therefore be calculated. The average marginal daily operating cost of Eggs a sitting, calculated as the sum that might on average be saved if there were not to be a sitting on any expected Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the hon. Member for sitting day, or which might be incurred if there were an Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing additional unplanned sitting, is around £20,000. the House of Commons Commission, what steps he is The marginal cost associated with different daily taking to ensure that the same standards of animal sitting and rising times arises primarily from Hansard welfare for whole eggs apply to any imported liquefied printing costs, which reflect the overall length of a eggs that are procured by the House of Commons sitting, and late-night transport and overtime payments catering service. [83726] for Chamber and security staff. When the House sits beyond 11 pm, as is common on Mondays and Tuesdays, John Thurso: Whole eggs purchased by the House of there are average additional marginal costs of around Commons catering service are free range, British Lion £9,300 compared with those of a sitting which ends Quality assured and date stamped. Liquid egg is produced before 6 pm. When the House rises between 6 pm and in Belgium by a supplier whose eggs come from enriched 11 pm, as is common on Wednesdays and Thursdays, cage supplies, in accordance with the European legislation average additional marginal costs of £3,300 are incurred on enriched cages which takes effect in 2012. There are compared with those of a sitting which ends before no current plans to change these arrangements, but 6 pm. Because Fridays are shorter sitting days, the procurement practices are kept under constant review. average marginal cost of a Friday sitting is about £1,250 less than a sitting on another day which ends before Food 6 pm. All these figures are direct Chamber-related costs, Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the hon. Member for and do not include the impact of different rising times Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing on catering costs and income. the House of Commons Commission, what proportion of food served in the House of Commons estate was procured from UK food producers in the latest period for which figures are available. [83725] NORTHERN IRELAND John Thurso: The House is subject to the EU procurement regulations and so cannot discriminate in Bill of Rights favour of or against the produce of any member state. Appointed suppliers are therefore not required as a Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for matter of course to confirm the country of origin of Northern Ireland what his policy is on introducing a food supplied to the House of Commons catering service Northern Ireland Bill of Rights; if he will publish the and thus no record is kept of the country of origin of letter he sent to party leaders in Northern Ireland on foods. their views on a Northern Ireland Bill of Rights; and if However, periodic checks are made on the provenance he will make a statement. [84294] of fresh meats and poultry supplies. An estimated 90% or more of beef, lamb, chicken and other poultry supplies Mr Swire: Our policy is that any legislation arising is traceable to British producers and, in order to conform from the work of the Commission examining the case to higher welfare standards set out in purchasing for a UK Bill of Rights would provide a vehicle in 1017W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1018W which to implement any rights specific to Northern (a) his Department and (b) public bodies for which he Ireland if these can be agreed by the political parties is responsible was procured from UK food producers in there. the latest period for which figures are available. [83803] The hon. Gentleman may be referring to a letter sent by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, my right Mr Paterson: My Department and the public bodies hon. Friend the Member for North Shropshire for which I am responsible, aim to promote Northern (Mr Paterson), to the First Minister, Deputy First Minister Ireland produce. All meat, fish and vegetables used by and others in early September about institutional changes. my Department are locally sourced where possible, I have placed a copy in the Library. depending on seasonal availability.

Departmental Civil Proceedings Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what steps (a) his Department Mr Jenkin: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern and (b) public bodies for which he is responsible are Ireland which organisations that have received funding taking to ensure that they meet the Government’s from his Department have brought legal proceedings buying standards for food and catering. [83804] against his Department in the last five years; which such organisations were not successful in their actions; and Mr Paterson: All food and catering procurement by whether his Department (a) applied and (b) was paid my Department, and the public bodies for which I am for costs in respect of such cases. [83893] responsible is undertaken in line with Government’s procurement policy and buying standards. Mr Paterson: Comparable figures for the Department as it is now configured are not available for the years preceding the completion of devolution of policing and Foreign Relations: Republic of Ireland justice functions on 12 April 2010. Since that date no organisation receiving funding from my Department Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern has brought legal proceedings against us. Ireland pursuant to the answer of 7 November 2011, Official Report, column 16W,on foreign relations: Republic Departmental Communication of Ireland, what subjects were discussed at his meeting with the Department of Foreign Affairs in Dublin on Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern 27 October 2011. [82419] Ireland how many (a) press officers, (b) internal communications officers, (c) external communications Mr Paterson: When the Minister of State, Northern officers, (d) communications strategy officers and (e) Ireland Office, my right hon. Friend the Member for other positions with a communications remit were employed East Devon (Mr Swire), met officials from the Department by (i) his Department and (ii) the non-departmental of Foreign Affairs in Dublin on 27 October a wide public body sponsored by his Department on the most range of issues was discussed, including economic recent date for which figures are available. [84211] conditions and north south co-operation in a number of fields. Mr Paterson: The Northern Ireland Office currently has a small communications team made up of the Head Post Codes of Communications, one Senior Information Officer and one Information Officer. The Senior Information Officer post is currently vacant and is due to be filled Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern soon. There are no other communications officers within Ireland whether his Department uses postcodes for the Department. purposes other than the postage of mail. [84209] Of the non-departmental public bodies sponsored by the Northern Ireland Office, the Northern Ireland Human Mr Paterson: My Department does not use postcodes Rights Commission employs a Press and Public Affairs for purposes other than the postage of mail. Officer. Departmental Eggs TRANSPORT Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what steps he is taking to ensure A338: Repairs and Maintenance that the same standards of animal welfare for whole eggs apply to imported liquefied eggs procured by (a) his Department and (b) public bodies for which he is Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport responsible. [83802] when the roadworks on the A338 will be completed. [84074] Mr Paterson: Neither my Department, nor the public bodies for which I am responsible, purchase liquefied Norman Baker: The A338 is a local authority road eggs. and is not maintained by central Government or the Highways Agency. Any questions relating to roadworks Departmental Food on it should be directed towards the relevant local highway authority—either Dorset county council or Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Bournemouth borough council, depending on exactly Northern Ireland what proportion of food sourced by which section of the road is in question. 1019W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1020W

Aviation: Scotland through tolling—and would be willing to discuss any local proposals. However, we currently have no plans to Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for toll the A27 or M27. Transport whether she has had recent discussions with Manhole Covers the Secretary of State for Scotland on Scottish air services. [81209] Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Mrs Villiers: The Secretary of State for Transport, what plans she has to introduce composite manhole my right hon. Friend the Member for Putney (Justine covers to reduce (a) the incidence of scrap metal theft Greening), has discussed Scottish air services with the and (b) the risk of injury to cyclists. [83957] Secretary of State for Scotland, the right hon. Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk (Michael Moore), Norman Baker [holding answer 30 November 2011]: and the Government fully recognise the importance of The majority of manhole covers on the highway network air services between Scotland and the rest of the UK. It are the responsibility of utility companies, with a small is the Government’s intention to develop an aviation percentage under the ownership of local highway policy framework which supports economic growth and authorities. As such it would not be the responsibility of seeks to create the right conditions for regional airports, the Department for Transport to introduce composite and those in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, to manhole covers. flourish. We are, however, aware that local authorities across The Government published a scoping document that England are experiencing an increased incidence of asked a series of questions, including on regional airports, theft of metal drain-hole covers and iron railings. These to stimulate discussion on aviation policy. The responses thefts not only present a risk to public safety but are we have received to the scoping document will help to also causing authorities to divert funding from other inform the development of a draft framework, which services. Many authorities who have experienced the we intend to publish for full public consultation in theft of manhole covers are now replacing these with March 2012. covers which do not have any scrap value in order to prevent further thefts. Cycling More generally, the Department has worked with the Institute of Highways and Incorporated Engineers (IHIE) Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for to develop Guidelines for Motorcycling. Section 6.3.16 Transport what recent steps her Department has taken of the guide encourages designers and maintenance to encourage more people to use bicycles. [82963] engineers to ensure that covers should not be positioned in the carriageway so as to impose a hazard to motorcyclists. Norman Baker: The Government made clear their The guide may be viewed on the IHIE website at: support for cycling in their coalition agreement. On www.motorcyclingguidelines.org.uk 5 July 2011, Official Report, columns 88-94WS, I announced In addition, the British and European Standard the allocation of £155.5 million to 37 authorities in (prEN124) on “gully tops and manhole tops for vehicular England to deliver packages of measures that support and pedestrian areas” has been going through revision. economic growth and cut carbon emissions as part of One of the areas being considered as part of this work the £560 million Local Sustainable Transport Fund, is the in-service skid slip resistance of the covers. and 38 out of the 39 successful bids included a cycling Consideration is also being given to an enhanced skid element. I will announce the remaining allocations for slip resistance value to improve consistency between the Tranche 2 and large projects in summer 2012. We are road surface and service covers placed in the highway. also committed to supporting Bikeability cycle training for the remainder of this Parliament, helping to give Railways: Rolling Stock children the skills and confidence to cycle on today’s roads. In addition, I have established a cycling forum John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for which will, among other things, be looking at barriers Transport what estimate her Department has made of that prevent people taking up cycling. We want to get the amount of investment rolling stock companies more people cycling, more safely, more often. have made in the railway industry in each of the last M27 10 years. [R] [83166]

Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Mrs Villiers: The Government do not hold this Transport what consideration has been given to (a) information. However, the following table provides a improving and (b) tolling the A/M27 road. [84444] rough estimate based on new passenger rolling stock procurement. This estimate will not reflect investment Mike Penning: I recognise the importance of the A27 in the purchase of non passenger rolling stock equipment Chichester bypass scheme, which was one of the 14 and ongoing refurbishment of the owners vehicles. For Highways Agency major schemes identified at the 2010 more accurate information, please contact the rolling spending review for construction post 2015, subject to stock companies. the outcome of statutory processes, value for money Rough estimate of investment for new vehicles and affordability. There are no current plans to develop £ million other major improvement schemes for the A27 or the M27 at this time. 2001 720 2002 870 We are happy to look at schemes which would fund 2003 320 new capacity and improve the UK’s road infrastructure 1021W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1022W

Rough estimate of investment for new vehicles Chi Onwurah: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer £ million pursuant to the answer of 25 November 2011, Official Report, column 621W, on capital allowances, what 2004 130 information his Department collects on the financial 2005 235 benefits companies receive due to manufacturing capital 2006 385 investment allowances. [84449] 2007 305 2008 490 Mr Gauke: HMRC has published information about 2009 160 capital allowances due for companies for 2005-6 to 2010 55 2009-10 for some industrial sectors at: 2011 0 http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/corporate_tax/table11-10.pdf Road Works Calculating the tax savings from capital allowances claims by companies in the manufacturing sector would involve disproportionate costs. This is because it would Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport be necessary to work out the extent to which there what plans she has to remove the requirement for would have otherwise been extra taxable profits for each Secretary of State approval of street works permit company in the manufacturing sector if the capital schemes under the Traffic Management Act 2004. allowances had not been claimed and the extra amounts [84341] of tax that would have been payable on the extra taxable Norman Baker: I propose to consult on this shortly. profits. Departmental Food

TREASURY Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what steps (a) his Department and (b) Boilers: Government Assistance public bodies for which he is responsible are taking to ensure that they meet the Government’s buying standards Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer for food and catering. [83774] whether he and his officials have had any discussions with the Department of Energy and Climate Change on Miss Chloe Smith: HM Treasury’s current catering the re-introduction of a boiler scrappage scheme in the sub-contractor requires that its suppliers be accredited last six months. [83668] Assured Food Standards (AFS) and that monthly product ranges must include AFS red tractor certified products Miss Chloe Smith: HM Treasury Ministers and officials appropriate to the season. frequently discuss a range of issues with the Department of Energy and Climate Change, including policies for Economic and Monetary Union energy efficiency and to address fuel poverty. Andrew Bridgen: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Capital Allowances what the cost to the public purse was of his Department’s Euro Implementation Unit in each year from its inception Chi Onwurah: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to its closure. [81369] pursuant to the answer of 25 November 2011, Official Report, column 621W, on capital allowances, for what Mr Hoban: The cost of the Euro Preparations Unit in reasons the information requested is not available. each year since its inception is difficult to ascertain, [84446] since much of the expenditure has been grouped within other departmental costs. An estimate of spending in Mr Gauke: The information is unavailable because those years that separate data were available is set out in HMRC’s databases do not hold details on which industrial the following table: sector some businesses claiming capital allowances belong to and answering the question using data where industrial Cost (£) sector information for businesses is available would involve disproportionate costs. 2001-02 1,706,252.95 HMRC has published information about capital 2002-03 1,713,510.77 allowances due for companies for 2005-6 to 2009-10 for 2003-04 771,743.53 some industrial sectors at: 2004-05 512,147.69 http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/corporate_tax/table11-10.pdf 2005-06 45,691.88 However capital allowances can also be claimed by 2006-07 78,040.45 unincorporated businesses assessed for income tax and 2007-08 29,620.18 equivalent information has not been published for them. 2008-09 4,498.09 Calculating the tax savings from capital allowances Total 4,861,505.54 claims by businesses would involve disproportionate costs. This is because it would be necessary to work out Public Sector: Pensions the extent to which there would have otherwise been extra taxable profits for each business if the capital Fabian Hamilton: To ask the Chancellor of the allowances had not been claimed and the extra amounts Exchequer what savings to the public purse have arisen of tax that would have been payable on the extra taxable as a consequence of changing the indexation of public profits. service pensions from the retail price index to the 1023W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1024W consumer price index; and how much of any such savings (also including voluntary and community groups and in the case of pensioners over the age of 70 years is due social enterprises). It excludes letters on issues relating to the exclusion of the guaranteed minimum pension to taxation. element of their pension in the indexation. [83341] Relevant items of Danny Alexander: I refer the hon. Member to my Month correspondence answer to the hon. Member for West Suffolk (Matthew 2010 June 2 Hancock) on 14 November 2011, Official Report, columns July 2 643-44W. This includes a table with an estimate of savings on unfunded public service pensions due to the August 4 decision to use the consumer prices index (CPI) as the September 1 Government’s preferred measure for uprating the additional October 2 state pension and public service pensions. November 1 The indexation of guaranteed minimum pensions December 2 (GMPs) in payment depends upon individual circumstances and can be paid by either public service schemes or through the state pension, or both. HM Treasury does 2011 January 10 not have the information to calculate the savings on February 6 public service pensions expenditure that specifically March 5 relate to the GMP elements of those pensions. May 1 July 2 Taxation: Environment Protection October 1

Barry Gardiner: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Affordable Warmth element of the Energy Company Obligation is included in the Control framework for DECC levy-funded spending. [84028] COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT

Miss Chloe Smith: The control framework for DECC Affordable Housing: Preston levy-funded spending covers DECC’s policies that entail levy-funded spending and that are or likely to be classified Mark Hendrick: To ask the Secretary of State for by the Office of National Statistics as imputed taxation Communities and Local Government how many new and public spending for national accounts purposes. units of social housing were built or acquired by social If other DECC policies are classified as tax and landlords in Preston constituency in each of the last five spend then they will fall within the control framework. years. [83870] The Energy Company Obligation, or its Affordable Warmth Component, would be included if classified as Andrew Stunell: Statistics on the number of additional such. Classification will take place in due course. affordable homes that were built or acquired by social landlords are not collected by constituency. Figures for Taxation: Holiday Accommodation Preston local authority are available on the Department’s website in Live Table 1008 at: Fiona Bruce: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer http://www.communities.gov.uk/housing/housingresearch/ housingstatistics/housingstatisticsby/ whether he has any plans to delay the introduction of affordablehousingsupply/livetables/ new rules for furnished holiday lettings beyond April 2012. [84156] Council Tax Benefits Mr Gauke: No. The changes to the rules for furnished holiday lettings (FHLs) were legislated in Finance Act Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for 2011. The first changes took effect from April 2011 Communities and Local Government how the new burdens (removal of loss relief against general income) and doctrine will apply to council tax benefit successor there are further changes from April 2002 (increase in schemes. [84355] qualifying thresholds). Robert Neill: In line with the new burdens doctrine, Third Sector the Government will work with local authorities to assess the net impact on local government of localisation Mr Thomas: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer of support for council tax, including the transitional how many letters he has received on funding for civil costs of moving to the new arrangements. society organisations within his Department’s area of responsibility in each month since 1 June 2010; and if Departmental Design he will make a statement. [73993] Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities Miss Chloe Smith: The figure in the format requested and Local Government how much his Department has could be provided only at disproportionate cost. spent on design in respect of (a) logos, (b) buildings, However, the following table shows the number of (c) advertising, (d) stationery and (e) campaigns in letters received from MPs on the subject of charities the last year for which figures are available. [80205] 1025W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1026W

Robert Neill: The Department for Communities and (2) how many housing starts on site were delivered in Local Government incurred no design costs on (a) Camberwell and Peckham constituency in the six logos, (b) buildings and (d) stationery in 2010-11. The months to September 2011. [84293] Department ran one advertising campaign—Fire Kills— that aimed to encourage people to test their smoke Andrew Stunell: House building starts data for the alarm regularly in order to prevent fatalities and injuries London borough of Southwark, as reported to the from fire in the home. The creative work associated with Department for Communities and Local Government, this, including all the advertising agency costs associated are not available as the authority has not provided data with the campaign, was £42,300. returns for this period. To assist the hon. Member’s scrutiny of Whitehall Information is not available at parliamentary constituency spending, I would note that the last Administration level. spent £22,000 of taxpayers’ money on home information packs branding; £21,090 on Homebuy scheme branding; Housing Revenue Accounts £15,000 on the branding the Sustainable Communities summit (subsequently cancelled); £10,000 on branding the National Housing and Planning Advice Unit quango; Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for £25,000 on Community Builders branding; £7,260 on Communities and Local Government if he will provide Code for Sustainable Homes branding; £33,400 on Cleaner resources to local authorities to compensate for rent Safer Greener Communities branding; £3,520 on loss from properties under the Right to Buy following re-branding Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Fire Services the reform of the Housing Revenue Account. [83231] as the Chief Fire and Rescue Adviser; £3,830 on a logo for the Department and Communities and Local Andrew Stunell [holding answer 25 November 2011]: Government followed by spending £24,765 on renaming We are committed to ensuring that every additional it Communities and Local Government; and £1,371 on home sold under right to buy is replaced by a new re-branding the ‘Office of the Deputy Prime Minister’ home, and receipts from sales will be recycled towards to the ‘Deputy Prime Minister’s Office’. the cost of replacement. The receipt needed to fund replacement will only be a fraction of the cost of a new G4S home. This is because most of the funding for new affordable rented homes comes from borrowing by the Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities provider against the future rental income stream; and, and Local Government how many contracts his in many cases, cross-subsidy from the landlord’s own Department has awarded to G4S since May 2010; and resources, including land. what the (a) purpose, (b) monetary value and (c) net Our proposal is that right to buy receipts will first be worth was of each such contract. [83920] used to meet debt on additional properties sold, then will meet Treasury and council forecast receipts, and Robert Neill: The Department has not awarded any that the balance will be available for investment in contracts to G4S since May 2010. replacement properties. Our initial modelling shows Housing that the expected receipts will provide a sufficient contribution to the cost of replacement homes. We will set out detailed proposals in the right to buy consultation. Mr Raynsford: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many homes We are committed to letting councils keep the proportion were started in England in the 12 months to (a) September of the receipt needed to cover the housing debt associated 2011 and (b) September 2010. [R] [82699] with additional right to buy sales. This will ensure that the right to buy reforms do not have an impact on the Grant Shapps: Figures for new build housing starts in viability of self-financing or independent social landlords. England since 1990 are published on the Department for Communities and Local Government website in Housing Revenue Accounts: Southwark Live Table 213 and can be found at the following link. http://www.communities.gov.uk/housing/housingresearch/ Ms Harman: To ask the Secretary of State for housingstatistics/housingstatisticsby/housebuilding/livetables/ Communities and Local Government (1) what assumptions concerning the rental income of the London Borough Dr Wollaston: To ask the Secretary of State for of Southwark were used to calculate the final housing Communities and Local Government what estimate he revenue account debt settlement; [84063] has made of the planning implications of total housing need at the upper and lower limits of the Office for (2) what estimate he has made of the change in the National Statistics-projected population by 2050. cost of rent for a two-bedroom council home in the [83909] London Borough of Southwark as a result of self-financing in 2012-13. [84064] Andrew Stunell: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave her on 21 November 2011, Official Report, column Andrew Stunell: There is no change to social rent 59-60W. policy as a result of self-financing. Self-financing valuations and settlement payments are based on the continuation Ms Harman: To ask the Secretary of State for of the social rent policy established by the previous Communities and Local Government (1) how many Government in 2001. It assumes convergence of council housing starts on site there were in the London Borough rents and housing association rents in 2015-16, subject of Southwark in the six months to September 2011; to a maximum annual rent rise for an individual tenant [84157] of the retail prices index + 0.5% + £2 per week. 1027W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1028W

Local Government Finance 2012, at the request of local authorities, to allow them to use funds to support local high streets in the run up Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for to the busy Christmas and sales period. But, as examples: Communities and Local Government pursuant to the By 20 October, Haringey council had provided £165,000 in answer of 1 November 2011, Official Report, column 440W, hardship grants to almost 100 local businesses. The council on urban areas: Government assistance, how much estimates that it may make a final claim of around £2 million funding has been (a) applied for and (b) disbursed to to the High Street Support scheme. local authorities in respect of (i) the £10 million Recovery By 27 October, Croydon council had provided £249,000 in Fund and (ii) the £20 million High Street Support hardship grants to businesses and £137,000 in business rates scheme to date. [81232] hardship relief. These sums form part of the council’s £882,000 local investment so far through the High Street Support scheme. Robert Neill [holding answer 15 November 2011]: My The council granted £1,000 to any business with a crime Department was responsible for three funds that were reference number, without the business having to ask for the set up in the immediate aftermath of the riots—the grant. The police made direct contact with the council, which Homelessness Support scheme that helped those who then made payment with the need of a formal claim to be made were made homeless; the Recovery Fund, which covered by the affected business. the clean-up costs of local authorities; and the High I understand Manchester has spent £181,000 under the High Street Support scheme, which compensates councils for Street Support scheme on promotional activities in the riot-affected measures to help local businesses. areas. These activities will aim to encourage Manchester residents to come to the city centre to shop, eat and socialise. As part of Under these schemes, local councils have been in the this, the council co-ordinated a very successful three-week “I lead in providing support to local firms and local residents. love Manchester” campaign, which was grass-roots driven and Central Government subsequently is reimbursing local became a symbol of the city’s resilience and message to the councils for their costs retrospectively (in a similar way world that the people of Manchester are proud of their city to how the Bellwin scheme has operated historically). and united against criminality and antisocial behaviour. 180 As made clear when the schemes were launched, Central people registered to volunteer in the future. Government is not funding affected firms or residents Salford council is investing £98,000 of its High Street Support directly. scheme funding to boost pride in Salford city centre. Funding Homelessness Support scheme is being used to create a welcoming environment for shoppers by repairing damage and promoting the “Salford Open for The closing date for the receipt of local authority Business” programme aimed at increasing footfall in Salford claims for the Homelessness Support scheme was shopping city. 30 November. So far the Department has received Ealing council set aside a £250,000 fund to help areas affected claims from four local authorities totalling over £100,000 by the riots. Small independent traders, which suffered damage which are still being assessed. Payments to local authorities from vandals and looters, have been given £1,200 to help them will be made shortly. pay for things like new glazing and repairs. The Homelessness Support scheme met the immediate Wolverhampton council has funded £110,000 on security blinds; costs of re-housing those made homeless by the disturbances £45,000 on promotions for city centre (“700 reasons to shop up to a maximum payment threshold of £5,000 per in Wolverhampton” campaign—referring to its 700 shops). household, with discretion applied for exceptional costs. They have also supported radio coverage and competitions for As an illustration, as at the end of September in Haringey, independent traders. 54 properties were affected and 58 households were As outlined in the written ministerial statement today, displaced as a result of the disturbances. All households we will also address any loss of New Homes Bonus in made homeless who approached local authorities for areas affected by last summer’s riots through riot recovery assistance have been found alternative accommodation. funds. DCLG is providing a further £35,000 for a dedicated I would commend the recommendation of the Interim support service in Haringey for the households who report of the Riots Communities and Victims Panel were displaced by disturbances. Those affected faced a that each local authority should identify an officer who particularly complex pattern of needs (housing, clothing, can provide a knowledgeable single point of contact on furniture, transport, psychological support). financial recovery to local people and businesses affected Recovery scheme by the riots. The closing date for the receipt of local authority claims for the Recovery scheme was 7 November. Claims Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for from 25 local authorities are currently being assessed. Communities and Local Government what assessment On 16 November, the Secretary of State for Communities he has made of the effect that the planned reform of and Local Government, my right hon. Friend the Member business rate redistribution and local revenue fluctuations for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr Pickles), wrote to council will have on local authority tax increment financing. leaders of the areas affected by disturbances, stating [84290] that, even though the deadline for submitting claims under this scheme had passed, he would be happy to Robert Neill: Given that details of the local retention accept claims until 23 November, as he was keen to of business rates and Tax Increment Financing have not ensure that councils are reimbursed for all expenses been finalised, no quantitative assessment has been incurred as a result of disturbances. Over £500,000 has made of the interaction between the two. already been paid to local authorities from the Recovery The Government’s consultation on the local retention Fund in the first batch of payments, and more will of business rates set out two broad options to enable the follow in the next few weeks. implementation of Tax Increment Finance, along with High Street Support scheme the potential benefits and risks in relation to the wider The deadline for claims to be submitted under the local retention proposals. This consultation closed on High Street Support scheme was extended to 31 January 24 October. 1029W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1030W

Local Government: Procurement In addition, questions 4(a) and 4(b) to the consultation on the draft National Planning Policy Framework asked Simon Reevell: To ask the Secretary of State for what light-touch guidance should accompany the new Communities and Local Government what guidance framework, and what organisations are best placed to his Department has issued to local authorities and their provide it. We are now considering the responses to that finance departments on payment of suppliers. [82303] consultation.

Robert Neill: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer Rented Housing: Southwark I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Pendle (Andrew Stephenson) on 10 October 2011, Official Ms Harman: To ask the Secretary of State for Report, column 17W. Communities and Local Government what assessment he has made of the merits of taking steps to mitigate Non-Domestic Rates the effect of the level of the retail prices index on rent levels for local authority tenants in the London Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Borough of Southwark. [84062] Communities and Local Government what assessment he has made of the effect on social care provision of Andrew Stunell: No such assessment has been made the Government’s proposals for the localisation of in respect of the London borough of Southwark. Under National Non-Domestic Rates; and if he will make a existing social rent policy, to protect tenants from large statement. [83176] annual rent rises there is a limit on actual rent increases for all individual local authority tenants of retail prices Robert Neill [holding answer 25 November 2011]: index inflation + 0.5% + £2. This rent policy was Our proposals for business rates retention will ensure a introduced under the last Administration. stable starting point so that no authority is worse off as a result of its business rates base at the outset of the Social Rented Housing new scheme. They also propose further protections to ensure councils can meet local needs, including a safety Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State net for places in need of additional support, funded by for Communities and Local Government what steps he a levy recovering a share of disproportionate gain. Our is taking to facilitate greater freedom for local housing proposals will provide opportunities for authorities to authorities to set allocations and qualifications criteria benefit financially through delivering economic growth for social housing in respect of (a) low-paid working in their areas. We believe that our plans will give local families, (b) those with a strong local link and (c) councils new incentives to promote local economic growth, those with a record of community activity; and if he which will help grow the overall level of business rate will make a statement. [83335] receipts. We will set out the Government’s response to its consultation on business rates retention shortly. Andrew Stunell [holding answer 28 November 2011]: The Localism Act 2011 gives back to local authorities Planning Permission the freedom to manage their own housing waiting lists. Local authorities will be able to decide who should Roberta Blackman-Woods: To ask the Secretary of qualify for social housing in their area, and to develop State for Communities and Local Government whether solutions which make best use of limited stock. This he plans to publish in full the consultation responses would include disqualifying applicants who do not have his Department has received on the draft National a strong local link with the area, if the local authority Planning Policy Framework. [82433] chose to do so. Greg Clark: As I set out in my written ministerial Local authorities already have flexibility within the statement of 19 October, Official Report, column 65WS, allocation legislation to include their own local policy having fully considered the suggestions made, the priorities within their allocation scheme. We will shortly Government will then publish the revised text taking be publishing for consultation new statutory guidance into account representations that have been made and a to local authorities which encourages them to take summary of responses to the consultation. advantage of this flexibility to give greater priority to families in low paid work or to those who otherwise Stephen Gilbert: To ask the Secretary of State for contribute to their communities. Communities and Local Government pursuant to the contribution of the right hon. Lord Shutt of Greetland Travellers: Community Relations of 17 October 2011, Official Report, House of Lords, columns 139-40, on the Localism Bill, when his Dr Alasdair McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State Department plans to issue a revised version of Circular for Communities and Local Government what progress 03/09: Cost Awards in Appeals and Other Planning his Department has made on developing a national Proceedings; when he intends to consult on requiring strategy for Roma integration under the EU framework. departure applications to have compulsory pre- [84158] application consultation with the local community; and if he will make a statement. [82457] Andrew Stunell: I refer the hon. Member to the answers my noble Friend, Baroness Hanham gave to the Greg Clark [holding answer 24 November 2011]: We noble Lord, Lord Avebury on 14 June 2011, Official are currently reviewing what changes will be needed to Report, House of Lords, column WA177 and 24 October planning documents following commencement of the 2011, Official Report, House of Lords, column WA116. planning provisions in the Localism Act. We plan to publish a progress report on the work of the 1031W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1032W

Ministerial Working Group on Preventing and Tackling This Department has not discussed with the Ministry Inequalities Experienced by Gypsies and Travellers later of Justice the sharing of administrative support by the this year. Coroner for Treasure and the Chief Coroner.

Dr Alasdair McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, for Communities and Local Government what discussions Olympics, Media and Sport how many current treasure he has had with the Office of First Minister and Deputy cases have been awaiting a verdict for over six months; First Minister of Northern Ireland on developing a and if he will make a statement. [84060] national Roma integration strategy. [84159] Mr Vaizey: The British Museum, who act as the Andrew Stunell: Ministers at the Department for Secretariat to the Treasure Valuation Committee, and Communities and Local Government consulted the First administer cases of potential Treasure reported to coroners, Minister and deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland currently has 27 treasure cases that have been awaiting a on the UK’s policy approach to negotiations for the EU coroner verdict for over six months. Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Affairs Council meeting on Roma inclusion, held on 19 May 2011. DCLG Ministers have had no further discussions Sports: Facilities on Roma integration with the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland. The Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland Executive has responsibility for this Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how many (a) issue in Northern Ireland. tennis facilities, (b) bowling facilities, (c) gymnasiums, sports halls and leisure centres, (d) swimming pools, (e) athletic stadiums and (f) ski slopes he estimates will be operational in (i) Liverpool, Walton constituency, CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT (ii) Merseyside and (iii) England in each of the next Arts: Voluntary Work four years. [84076] Hugh Robertson: Neither the Department nor Sport Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, England has collated this information. Sports and recreation Olympics, Media and Sport what assessment he has facilities are delivered by local authorities, and any made of the merits of creating and developing skills opening or closure of such a facility is a matter for the banks in the arts sector to encourage finance and legal local authority concerned. However, there is national professionals to volunteer their services on an ad hoc planning policy in place covering sports and recreation basis. [83013] facilities. This policy looks to local council planning to protect such facilities needed by the local community. Mr Vaizey: Arts Council England’s plan for 2011-15 The National Planning Policy Framework will simplify sets out key priorities including: to promote greater the existing suite of planning policy documents and be collaboration between organisations to increase efficiency localist in its approach. The draft framework, which and innovation; strengthening business models in the was recently open to consultation, can be found at the arts; and building a network of arts leaders who value following link: sharing knowledge and skills. http://www.communities.gov.uk/planningandbuilding/ I have noted with interest models such as the Cranfield planningsystem/planningpolicy/planningpolicyframework/ Trust, Orange’s ‘Do Some Good’ initiative and Business in the Community’s ‘Business Connectors’ programme, all of which contain principles which can be replicated Telephones: Unsolicited Goods and Services in the arts. Andrew Bridgen: To ask the Secretary of State for Coroner For Treasure Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what steps his Department is taking to prevent unsolicited calls being Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, made to people who have subscribed to the Telephone Olympics, Media and Sport (1) whether his Department Preference Service. [84279] and the Ministry of Justice have discussed the sharing of administrative support by the Coroner for Treasure Mr Vaizey: Telephone Preference Service (TPS) and the Chief Coroner; and if he will make a statement; registered consumers are protected from unsolicited [84059] marketing calls through the Privacy and Electronic (2) what discussions his Department has had with Communications Regulations (PECR) 2003. The the Ministry of Justice on the funding of the post of Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO) has enforcement Coroner for Treasure; and if he will make a statement. responsibility for the TPS and considers complaints [84166] about breaches. In May of this year, the Department for Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) increased the ICO’s Mr Vaizey: This Department discussed the funding powers in relation to the PECR, as part of revisions to of the post of Coroner for Treasure with the Ministry of the EU e-privacy directive enabling the ICO to issue a Justice as part of implementation of the Coroners and fine of up to £500,000 for the most serious breaches of Justice Act 2009. We considered various options to the regulations. In addition, DCMS is discussing the reduce the funding needed for the Coroner for Treasure effectiveness of the TPS with Ofcom, who are responsible post but were unable to secure funding for this post and for the contract, to ensure that consumers remain effectively informed interested parties of this on 17 November. protected and improvements are made where necessary. 1033W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1034W

ATTORNEY-GENERAL Climate Change: International Cooperation

Babar Ahmad Mr Allen: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what his priorities are for the Caroline Lucas: To ask the Attorney-General whether international climate change negotiations. [83965] the decision not to prosecute Babar Ahmad in the UK was made after the Crown Prosecution Service had seen Chris Huhne: The Government are committed to all of the evidence obtained by (a) the Metropolitan making progress at Durban on climate finance, adaptation, Police Service and (b) other authorities in the UK; and forests, technology and measuring and reporting emissions. if he will make a statement. [84305] We want to make progress towards a single legally binding instrument which commits all major economies The Attorney-General: A small number of documents to binding targets and, recognising that the emissions seized by the Metropolitan police were submitted to the reduction pledges on the table so far are collectively not Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) for advice in 2004. ambitious enough, make progress in reaching a common The domestic prosecutor was asked to advise if any of understanding on the size of this gap and how we can these potentially fell within Section 58 of the Terrorism close it. Act 2000. On the material provided there was insufficient evidence to prosecute. At the time this advice was given, Combined Heat and Power: EU Action domestic prosecutors were aware of the nature of the evidence in the possession of the US, but the entirety of Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for the evidence was never subject to review in this country Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has as it forms part of the case built by the US. The made of the potential impact on renewables of providing documents submitted to the CPS, even if they had priority grid access and dispatch for electricity produced amounted to an offence under Section 58, amounted to from combined heat and power generators as proposed only a small fraction of the criminality alleged against by the draft EU Energy Efficiency Directive; and if he Babar Ahmad by the US. will make a statement. [83564] Gregory Barker: The current draft text of the Directive requires the provision of priority or guaranteed access ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE to the grid of electricity from high efficiency cogeneration, and the provision of priority dispatch of electricity Green Deal from high efficiency cogeneration subject to requirements relating to the maintenance of the reliability and safety 16. Guy Opperman: To ask the Secretary of State for of the grid. We do not believe that these proposals in Energy and Climate Change what representations his the draft EU Energy Efficiency Directive should have Department has received on his proposals for an adverse impact on renewable generation. implementation of the green deal. [83978] We already provide guaranteed access in Great Britain through a market-based approach for those large scale Gregory Barker: Our proposals were formally launched renewable and combined heat and power generating in our consultation document on 23 November, and the stations which are connected to the grid. As regards consultation period will close on 18 January. priority dispatch in Great Britain, we also have a market- It is therefore still an early point in the process, but we based approach where dispatch depends on the generator look forward to receiving responses over the coming meeting a market price. Where it is necessary to prevent weeks. access on occasion in order to ensure the reliability and safety of the grid system, our market arrangements Durban Climate Change Conference determine which generator reduces its output, and these generators are compensated. It is usually most cost effective for conventional generation to reduce its output. 18. Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what recent progress has Electricity: Meters been made on achieving an agreement on climate finance for the Durban climate change conference; and Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for if he will make a statement. [83980] Energy and Climate Change when he expects the Smart Metering Installation Code of Practice to be published. Chris Huhne: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I [84036] gave to the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell), today. Charles Hendry: Electricity and gas suppliers have already developed a draft Smart Metering Installation Domestic Energy Costs Code of Practice, which they published for consultation in August 2011. They are now considering responses. 19. Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for The Department of Energy and Climate Change (DECC) Energy and Climate Change what steps he is taking to has consulted on the draft licence conditions that will assist households with their energy costs. [83982] formally underpin an industry Code, and will publish its response in the new year. The consultation proposed Charles Hendry: I refer the hon. Member to the that energy suppliers should be required to submit a answer I gave to the hon. Member for Edinburgh South Code of Practice to the Office of Gas and Electricity (Ian Murray) and the hon. Member for Telford (David Markets (Ofgem) for approval within one month of the Wright), today. new licence conditions’ taking effect. 1035W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1036W

Energy Supply: Planning Permission of smart meters will help empower millions of customers to make informed choices about their energy use. Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change when he proposes that Energy: Meters responsibility of energy-related planning applications will transfer from the Independent Planning Commission Neil Parish: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy to Ministers. [83845] and Climate Change pursuant to the statement of 23 November 2011, Official Report, column 299, on annual Robert Neill: I have been asked to reply. energy statement, what assessment he has made of the The Secretary of State for Communities and Local effect on annual energy bills of the Government’s smart Government, my right hon. Friend the Member for metering roll-out programme. [83865] Brentwood and Ongar (Mr Pickles), intends to commence the sections of the Localism Act 2011 in April 2012. Charles Hendry: We expect consumers to benefit From this point major infrastructure projects will be from lower energy bills as a result of the smart meters decided by democratically elected Ministers, within a rollout. This benefit is driven by consumers using energy clear policy framework provided by national policy more efficiently and by suppliers passing through net statements, and on the basis of recommendations made cost savings. For example, suppliers will be able to by the new major infrastructure planning unit, greatly reduce the number of premises they visit. We Energy: Billing have assessed the price and bill impacts of the rollout for each year up to 2030; the updated impact assessment, Tom Brake: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy published in August 2011, estimates that the smart and Climate Change if he will discuss with the Secretary meter rollout will reduce the average household electricity of State for Health the potential health effects on and gas bill by £22 in 2020 and by £42 in 2030. customers of an energy company failing to resolve its billing complaints within an acceptable timeframe. Fuel Poverty [84250]

Gregory Barker: The Government are fully aware of Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy potential health impacts of those living in cold, damp and Climate Change how many and what proportion (a) (b) homes which may arise if someone is unable to heat of households in Southend West constituency, (c) their home to an adequate standard. Officials in both Essex and England were in fuel poverty in (i) 2006, Departments are in contact on this and continue to (ii) 2007, (iii) 2008 and (iv) 2009; what estimate he has work on shared policies. made of the equivalent figures for (A) 2010, (B) 2011 and (C) 2012; what representations he has received Energy: Housing on this issue since June 2011; from whom these representations were received; and if he will make a Neil Carmichael: To ask the Secretary of State for statement. [R] [84550] Energy and Climate Change what steps he is taking to reduce household energy demand. [83960] Gregory Barker: DECC published data for 2006, 2008 and 2009 at local authority and parliamentary Gregory Barker: Energy efficiency is key to managing constituency level, and the number and proportions of demand. The Green Deal is set to transform the energy households in fuel poverty are shown in the following efficiency of British homes from 2012, and the roll-out table. For 2007 only a national figure is available.

Number and proportion of households in fuel poverty 2006 2007 2008 2009 Proportion Proportion Proportion Proportion Number (%) Number (%) Number (%) Number (%)

(a) Southend West 3,000 8 n/a n/a 5,000 12 7,000 1.8 (b) Essex 59,000 9 n/a n/a 82,000 12 116,000 16 (c) England 2,432,000 12 2,819,000 13 3,335,000 16 3,964,000 18 n/a = Not available.

Projections are made two years in advance of the receipt of pension credit guarantee credit in 2011. data, at a national level only. These show that around [84137] 4.0 million households are projected to be fuel poor in England in 2010 and 4.1 million households in 2011. Ministerial colleagues and I have regular meetings Charles Hendry: Precise data on monthly fuel bills of with a range of stakeholders to discuss fuel poverty. pensioners in receipt of pension credit is not available. The Living Costs and Food survey, run by ONS, reports Fuels: Prices expenditure data for the year 2010 by age of household reference person. This suggests that average monthly Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for household expenditure on electricity, gas and other Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made fuels was as follows, based on the age of the household of the average monthly fuel bill for a pensioner in reference person: 1037W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1038W

sector is generally working well. It reported that most £ consumers had a good choice of four or more suppliers 50 to 64 102.30 and that barriers to new market entrants are low in 65 to 74 95.30 most areas. In areas where potential mergers have threatened 75 and over 88.40 competition, OFT has sought divestments to maintain the pre-merger levels of competition. We remain vigilant Green Deal Scheme to ensure that the heating fuels markets function effectively for consumers. Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has made of Nuclear Power Stations the effect of the introduction of the green deal on the existing market for energy efficiency products. [84017] Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what the total capital cost was of Gregory Barker: The green deal will open up the the UK’s currently operational nuclear power plants; energy efficiency market to new sources of finance. Our and what the average cost per MWh of the output was assessment shows that green deal could double the of these plants over their lifetime. [84426] number of jobs in the insulation industry, supporting at least 65,000 jobs by 2015. Charles Hendry: The Department does not hold data Further detail can be found in the green deal impact on the capital costs of existing nuclear power plants in assessment. the UK. Information on generation costs is a matter for the operators of the nuclear power stations. Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change on what date he plans to announce Planning Permission the interest rate for green deal products. [84018] Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for Gregory Barker: Our approach to the green deal has Energy and Climate Change what he proposes will been to establish a clear regulatory framework which happen to planning applications currently being processed will support the development of a private sector market by the Independent Planning Commission (IPC) which in the provision and financing of energy efficiency remain uncompleted on the IPC’s dissolution. [83844] measures. The interest rate for green deals will therefore be determined by the private sector market. Robert Neill: I have been asked to reply. Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy The Localism Act provides for the abolition of the and Climate Change what discussions he has had with Infrastructure Planning Commission and the return of the Treasury on standardising the rate of VAT on responsibility for taking decisions to democratically products included in the green deal. [84019] elected Ministers. Section 129 of the Localism Act empowers the Secretary of State to make direction with Gregory Barker: The Department has regular discussions regard to the handling of applications on or after the with HM Treasury over a range of issues relating to the abolition date for the Infrastructure Planning Commission, green deal. and will use this power to ensure applications transfer Taxation is a matter for the Chancellor of the Exchequer, seamlessly on the day that the Infrastructure Planning my right hon. Friend the Member for Tatton (Mr Osborne). Commission is abolished.

Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for Post Codes Energy and Climate Change what consideration he has given to the structural obligations and liabilities placed Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for on builders by the green deal. [84376] Energy and Climate Change whether his Department uses postcodes for purposes other than the postage of Gregory Barker: The green deal consultation document mail. [84191] sets out our proposals for oversight and redress in relation to installers under the green deal. These were Gregory Barker: Information on the use of postcodes developed in close collaboration with the green deal other than for the postage of mail is not held centrally Installer Fora which is comprised of key industry trade within the Department. However it is known that postcodes bodies. are used by statisticians in the Department to allocate energy consumption, and associated emissions, to Heating Oil geographical areas. The results of this analysis are published as National Jesse Norman: To ask the Secretary of State for and Official Statistics. Energy and Climate Change what steps he is taking to promote competition in the heating oil distribution Renewable Energy: Feed-in Tariffs market. [83981]

Charles Hendry: Last winter, I asked the Office of Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State Fair Trading (OFT) to bring forward its Off-Grid Domestic for Energy and Climate Change what the reasons are Energy Market study. Published on 18 October 2011, for his decision to reduce the level of feed-in tariffs for the study concluded that competition in the heating oil aggregators on 31 March 2012. [83477] 1039W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1040W

Gregory Barker: The current consultation on feed-in Gregory Barker: The latest consultation on feed-in tariffs (FITs) for solar photovoltaics (PV) seeks views tariffs states that the Government are considering whether on a proposal for new multi-installation tariff rates for more could be done to enable genuine community projects aggregated solar PV projects. This proposal is based on to benefit from FITs. The next consultation will also evidence from the comprehensive review of FITs which seek views on how we define community schemes. suggested that the economies of scale associated with aggregated projects mean that a lower tariff is needed to Solar Power: Feed-in Tariffs deliver the target rate of return of 5%. The consultation proposes that the multi-installation tariff rate would apply to all new solar PV installations with an eligibility Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for date on or after 1 April 2012. The deadline for responses Energy and Climate Change for what reasons the proposed to the consultation is 23 December 2011. new multi-installation tariff rates for aggregated solar photovoltaic schemes is set at 80 per cent. of the standard tariffs for individual installations. [83323] Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change whether contracts agreed and Gregory Barker: The multi-installation tariff rates submitted prior to the 12 December 2011 deadline for are based on evidence from the comprehensive review feed-in tariff applications will be honoured at the rate which suggested that the economies of scale associated of 43 pence per kilowatt hour. [84016] with aggregated projects mean that a lower tariff is necessary to deliver the target rate of return of 5%. We Gregory Barker: Our consultation on feed-in tariffs have considered this evidence along with the possible (FITs) for solar photovoltaics (PV) proposes that new impact of the proposed new requirements on energy tariffs will be implemented from 1 April 2012 but will efficiency on aggregated projects. On this basis, we apply to all new PV installations with an eligibility date consider that a multi-installation rate which is set at on or after a proposed “reference date” of 12 December 80% of the proposed standard tariffs for individual 2011. For the majority of solar PV installations, the installations, is justified (where that would result in a eligibility date will be the date on which a valid application tariff that is no lower than the marginal cost of renewables). is received by the FITs licensee, normally the applicant’s electricity supplier. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State The proposals are designed to strike a balance between for Energy and Climate Change what consideration he the need for quick action and the desire to allow people gave to the potential effects on (a) confidence in the an opportunity to finish work that is well underway. solar industry and (b) investment in major future The proposed six-week period will allow many prospective energy initiatives of his decision to reduce the feed-in generators who have made a financial commitment to tariff for solar photovoltaics from 12 December 2011. installing PV (for example, paying a deposit) to do this. [83454] We will consider all representations made during the consultation, including those related to the proposed Gregory Barker: The impact assessment accompanying reference date. the Government’s consultation on feed-in tariffs (FITs) for solar photovoltaics (PV), available at http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/11/consultation/fits-comp- Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for review-p1/3416-fits-IA-solar-pv-draft.pdf Energy and Climate Change if he will estimate the average annual income of a household in receipt of the estimates that new solar PV installations will continue to come forward under the proposed changes to FITs feed-in tariff. [84133] for solar PV. The impact assessment does not estimate the specific impact of the proposed changes, or the Gregory Barker: This information is not held by the potential new business opportunities arising from the Department. consultation proposals on energy efficiency, on the UK solar industry. Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for Current tariffs are providing returns well in excess of Energy and Climate Change how many Housing Revenue the around 5% that was intended when the FITs scheme Account tenanted properties have feed-in tariff installations was launched, and the proposed new tariffs are intended in each London borough. [84402] to ensure that returns go back to this, level. As with all DECC policy proposals, we have taken Gregory Barker: This information is not held by the into account their potential perception by industry and Department. investors. Our commitment to delivering clarity and However, as of 30 November, the Ofgem Central longevity is one of the reasons that we will be introducing FITs Register shows a total of 3250 installations in the electricity market reform to provide investors with a receipt of feed-in tariffs across all London boroughs. stable and credible long-term policy framework to encourage investment.

Solar Power Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change whether the (a) Home Affairs and (b) Economic Affairs Cabinet sub-committees Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy considered the effect on employment in the solar industry and Climate Change what plans he has to encourage of a reduction in the feed-in tariff for new solar PV community projects and local authorities to make use installations with an eligibility date on or after 12 of solar PV. [83977] December 2011. [84030] 1041W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1042W

Gregory Barker: In line with the constitutional convention 4GW post-consent and some 2GW in the planning of collective decision-making, and section 2 of the system demonstrating that good progress is being made Ministerial Code, the Government do not disclose details towards meeting our central projections for this technology. of the internal process through which decisions are 1 http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/consultations/cons_ro_ taken. review/cons_ro_review.aspx The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, the right hon. Member for Eastleigh (Chris Huhne), who has responsibility for the feed-in tariff proposals, sits on both the Economic Affairs and Home Affairs JUSTICE Cabinet Committees, where a wide range of issues are discussed. Free Schools: Planning Permission Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how many Housing Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Revenue Account tenanted properties have feed-in (1) which Department would receive any income arising tariff solar photovoltaic installations in each London from free schools being established at (a) Balham youth court, (b) Haringey magistrates court, (c) Mid-Sussex borough. [84401] magistrates court and (d) Sutton Coldfield magistrates Gregory Barker: This information is not held by the court; [84162] Department. (2) whether (a) Balham Youth Court, (b) Haringey However, as of 30 November, the Ofgem Central magistrates court, (c) Mid-Sussex magistrates court FITs Register shows a total of 3223 solar photovoltaic and (d) Sutton Coldfield magistrates court will be installations in receipt of feed-in tariffs across all London available for (i) sale, (ii) rent or (iii) free as potential boroughs. sites for free schools. [84163] Wind Power Mr Djanogly: The Ministry of Justice would receive a capital receipt if the sales of (a) Balham youth court, (b) Haringey magistrates court, (c) Mid-Sussex magistrates Mr Bone: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy court and (d) Sutton Coldfield magistrates court are and Climate Change what progress has been made in completed. These courts are currently being offered for implementing the Government’s policy on wind farms. sale and the Ministry of Justice has agreed with the [84295] Department for Education that they may offer them as potential sites for free schools. Charles Hendry: The Renewable Energy Roadmap (published in July 2011) sets out a targeted plan of actions for eight key technologies, including onshore HM Prison Birmingham: Pensions and offshore wind, in order to meet our 15% renewable energy target. The Roadmap includes illustrative “central John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for ranges” for these key technologies and whilst they don’t Justice whether the costs of pensions were added to the represent technology specific targets or the level of our public sector bid in respect of the recent tendering ambition, they do show what could be deployed by process for HM Prison Birmingham. [84734] 2020. We are making progress on the actions in the Roadmap to remove non-financial barriers—including Mr Blunt: Yes, the costs of providing pensions were reform of the planning system, and working with aviation added to the public sector bid. and wind stakeholders to develop and implement mitigation of wind farm interference with aviation radar. Offenders: Foreign Nationals The Government are committed to continuing support for wind technologies through the renewables obligation Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (RO) to help achieve our challenging deployment goals. (1) how many foreign national offenders who have On 20 October, DECC published a consultation on been (a) subject to proceedings for being an illegal proposals for RO support levels for large-scale renewable immigrant or (b) seeking asylum have (i) received electricity generation, including from onshore and offshore criminal convictions and (ii) been in receipt of a 1 wind, for the period 2013-17 . We are targeting support custodial sentence in each of the last five years; [84417] at the most cost effective of these technologies, and in (2) how many foreign national offenders who have the case of onshore wind farms in particular, a proposed been (a) subject to proceedings for being an illegal 10% reduction in the level of support aims to deter immigrant or (b) seeking asylum have been convicted poorly sited projects. The RO proposals will help secure of (i) a violent offence and (ii) a sexual offence in each billions of pounds of private sector investment in the of the last five years. [84418] UK economy. Good progress has been made on deployment—we Mr Blunt: The Ministry of Justice Court Proceedings currently have 4 gigawatts (GW) of onshore wind capacity Database holds information on offences provided by in operation and the existing pipeline contains an additional the statutes under which proceedings are brought but 11GW. When taken together, this would contribute a not all the circumstances of each case. It is therefore not significant proportion of the central range for onshore possible to identify from these centrally held data whether wind deployment by 2020. the offender was a foreign national, has been subject to In addition, the UK is the world leader for offshore proceedings for being an illegal immigrant, or has been wind power, with over 1.5GW installed capacity, around seeking asylum. 1043W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1044W

Prisoners’ Release: Lie Detectors type of injury received. Figures for staff and prisoner injuries have been collated in the statistics. Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice The National Offender Management Service publishes (1) how many sex offenders have had a polygraph annual Safety in Custody statistics on the Ministry of condition imposed as part of their release licence in Justice website. Statistics on prisoner on officer assault each of the last five years; [84408] incidents for 2001 to 2010 can be found at the following (2) how many released offenders have undergone a link: polygraph session as a result of the polygraph pilot; http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/statistics-and-data/ and how many polygraph sessions have taken place in prisons-and-probation/safety-in-custody.htm each month that the pilot has been operational. [84409] Prisons: Private Sector Mr Blunt: Sections 28 to 30 of the Offender Management Act 2007 (the 2007 Act) enabled a pilot of mandatory John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for polygraph testing to take place covering offenders released Justice who bears the cost of the private sector mobilisation on licence to addresses in the east and west Midlands process prior to the assumption of responsibility for regions, after serving prison sentences of 12 months or operation of a prison by a private sector provider. more for committing specified sexual offences. The [84735] pilot began in January 2009 and ended October 2011. During this period, 650 sexual offenders were released Mr Blunt: The Ministry of Justice bears the cost of with a licence condition requiring them to undertake mobilisation and transition. However, the costs are polygraph testing. assimilated in the contract price. The costs of mobilisation 599 of the 650 attended at least one polygraph session and transition are not paid until after full commencement during this period, the first test being scheduled 10-12 of the services. weeks after release. A polygraph session was scheduled at not less than every six months for the duration of the Probation licence and pilot. The following table provides details of the testing Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice figures for the first two financial years of the pilot and what (a) the full list of probation functions and (b) for the year to October 2011 when testing ended. During the list of core probation services is; and which of these this period, 1,290 polygraph sessions took place. have been subjected to marketisation. [84161] The discrepancy between offenders released with a polygraph condition (650) and those attending at least Mr Blunt: The information is as follows. one session (599) are accounted for, in the main, by the offender being recalled before their scheduled first test. (a) The full list of probation functions is covered by the following service specifications, published as part of Period Number of tests the NOMS Directory of Services at: http://www.justice.gov.uk/about/noms/noms-directory-of- 2009-10 346 services-and-specifications.htm 2010-11 608 Bail accommodation service April-October 2011 336 Bail services Total 1,290 Court work other than assessments and reports The results of the pilot are now subject to evaluation, Victim liaison with a view to determining whether mandatory polygraph Approved premises—Public protection and regimes testing is a useful additional tool in the risk management Approved premises—Catering and domestic arrangements of sexual offenders. In accordance with the provisions Assessment and reports pre-sentence in the 2007 Act, an affirmative resolution of each Manage the sentence for a community order or suspended House of Parliament would be needed before mandatory sentence order polygraph testing could be extended to sexual offenders Manage the custodial sentence—Manage the sentence pre and released on licence throughout England and Wales. post release from custody Manage the custodial sentence—Deliver supervision on licence Prisons: Crimes of Violence Deliver supervision requirement Deliver accredited programmes John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Deliver curfew requirement Justice how many prison officers have been stabbed Support delivery of alcohol treatment requirement during the course of their duties in each of the last five Support delivery of drug rehabilitation requirement years. [84737] Support delivery of mental health treatment requirement Mr Blunt: The National Offender Management Service Deliver residence requirement (NOMS) do not record data in the requested form. Deliver prohibited activity requirement However, NOMS do record and publish statistics on Deliver exclusion requirement assaults on staff which include assaults on prison officers. Deliver senior attendance centre requirement The statistics show the number of incidents in which staff have been involved, but do not include the number Rehabilitation services—In the community of individual injuries received by staff or the treatment Rehabilitation services—Deliver activity requirement they received. They do include figures for assaults by Unpaid work/Community payback 1045W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1046W

(b) There is currently no official list of ’core probation table of the number of suicide verdicts in his district services.’ The Government will consider this as part of over the last 10 years but to obtain the address and age the ongoing probation review. of the deceased would be at disproportionate cost as Bail Accommodation and Support Service and every suicide verdict would have to be interrogated. Community Payback are currently the only probation functions that have been, or are being, put to competition Suicide verdicts for East Lancashire coroner district on a national basis by NOMS. NOMS does not keep (number) records of competitive activity undertaken by probation 2001 17 trusts. 2002 13 The probation review announced on 13 July 2011 is 2003 18 developing options for probation reform. All the options 2004 18 being considered include scope for a much greater level 2005 22 of competition in probation services. We plan to consult 2006 15 on our proposals in the new year. 2007 15 2008 20 Reoffenders: Alternatives to Prosecution 2009 27 2010 14 Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many offenders subject to out-of-court disposals Youth Custody had previous criminal convictions in each of the last five years. [84413] Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what the under-18 secure estate capacity in England Mr Djanogly: The following table shows the number and Wales was in each year between 1996-97 and of offenders receiving a reprimand, warning or caution, 2010-11. [83097] in England and Wales in the years 2006 to 2010, by the number of previous convictions. Figures for the previous Mr Blunt: The following table shows the average criminal histories for offenders receiving other types of number of beds commissioned in each sector of the out-of-court disposal are not available. juvenile secure estate in each year from 2000-01 to These figures relate to separate cautioning occasions; 2010-11 together with the total number for each year. where an offender was cautioned on the same occasion These data are from the Youth Justice Board (YJB) for several offences that occasion has been counted and refer to secure training centres (STCs), secure children’s once in the table. These figures have been drawn from homes (SCHs) and places commissioned by the YJB in the police’s administrative IT system, the police national young offender institutions (YOIs). 2000-01 is the earliest computer, which, as with any large scale recording date from which data are available that gives information system, is subject to possible errors with data entry and on all secure establishments in the youth estate for this processing. The figures are provisional and subject to age group. change as more information is recorded by the police. The YJB monitors population levels and adjusts the Offenders receiving a reprimand, warning or caution by number of numbers of beds it commissions accordingly. As a result previous convictions and year— England and Wales decommissioning activity will often follow decreases in Number of offenders the number of under 18s in secure accommodation. The 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 Government published their Secure Estate Strategy consultation on 19 July 2011. The consultation closed 0 279,148 284,759 252,547 218,566 182,325 on 11 October 2011 and the Youth Justice Board is now 1-2 41,244 45,931 45,081 41,197 37,062 carefully considering the responses received. The strategy 3-6 22,811 24,976 24,794 22,471 20,002 proposes to reduce the number of beds commissioned 7-10 8,714 9,491 9,549 8,392 7,592 across the secure estate in order to ensure supply meets 11-14 4,458 4,993 4,886 4,471 3,977 demand. The new strategy is an opportunity to reconfigure 15+ 6,404 7,269 7,500 6,766 5,976 the estate to improve provision and better meet young Total 362,779 377,419 344,357 301,863 256,934 people’s needs. Note: These figures cover offenders cautioned for indictable offences and Places certain summary offences that are recorded by the police (they commissioned exclude a range of less serious summary offences such as television Secure Secure in young licence evasion, speeding and vehicle tax offences). children’s training offender homes centres institutions Total Suicide: Pendle 2000-01 262 130 2,868 3,260 Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for 2001-02 262 130 2,981 3,373 Justice what information his Department holds on the age of victims of suicide in Pendle constituency in the last 10 years. [83874] CABINET OFFICE Mr Djanogly: The information requested is not held Departmental Audit centrally. Coroners make annual returns on their verdicts, including suicide verdicts, but this information does not Mr Thomas: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet contain the level of detail requested. The Coroner for Office how many internal audits have taken place (a) East Lancashire has provided details in the following in his Department and (b) in the non-departmental 1047W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1048W bodies for which his Department is responsible in the was produced to UK production standards or equivalent, last 12 months; and if he will make a statement. can be found on the Cabinet Office website at: [82551] http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/resource-library/food- procurement-reporting Mr Maude: Department for Communities and Local Information for 2011-12 will be published after April Government Internal Audit is contracted to provide the 2012. internal audit service for Cabinet Office and its non- departmental public bodies (NDPBs). Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Minister for the During the period November 2010 to November Cabinet Office (1) what steps (a) his Department and 2011, Internal Audit has undertaken 30 audits. This (b) public bodies for which he is responsible are taking figure includes four audits undertaken in the National to ensure that they meet the Government’s buying School of Government (NSG) which since 1 April 2011 standards for food and catering; [83789] has been part of the Cabinet Office. (2) what steps he is taking to ensure that all food The following audits have been undertaken in the served on the Downing street estate meets the Government’s NDPBs: buying standards for food and catering. [83737] Civil Service Commission (NDPB—created November 2011): one audit Mr Maude: The Prime Minister’s Office is an integral Capacitybuilders (NDPB—ceased to exist April 2011): four part of the Cabinet Office. audits Information in relation to the Government Buying Commission for the Compact (NDPB—ceased to exist April Standards published in June 2011 about sourcing food, 2011): one audit. subject to no overall increase in costs, meeting UK or equivalent standards of production can be found on the Departmental Eggs Cabinet Office website at: http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/resource-library/food- Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Minister for the procurement-reporting Cabinet Office (1) what steps he is taking to ensure that the same standards of animal welfare for whole eggs Employment Schemes apply to imported liquefied eggs procured by (a) his Department and (b) public bodies for which he is responsible; [83787] Stephen Timms: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office which objectives for the Work Programme the (2) what steps he is taking to ensure that the same Transparency Indicators announced in the Open standards of animal welfare for whole eggs apply to Service White Paper will show as being met or not met. imported liquefied eggs served on the Downing street [84436] estate. [83736]

Mr Maude: The Prime Minister’s Office is an integral Chris Grayling: I have been asked to reply. part of the Cabinet Office. In line with the Business Plan reporting requirement, The standards for animal welfare for whole eggs and performance data on the Work programme will be imported liquefied eggs are set out in the Government published on the Department’s Business Plan Transparency Buying Standards on Food and Catering at: webpage as the data become available. In addition, performance against the first indicator will be included http://sd.defra.gov.uk/advice/public/buying/products/food/ as part of the Quarterly Data Summary reporting process. These are mandatory for central Government and their executive agencies. The Department will publish performance data on the following Work programme indicators: Information in relation to the Cabinet Office’s the proportion of participants who have achieved a Job Outcome commitment to the Government Buying Standards on payment at 12 months on the programme (to be published Food and Catering can be found on its website at: quarterly from November 2012); http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/resource-library/food- proportion of customers who have achieved a Job Outcome procurement-reporting payment at 24 months on the programme (to be published quarterly from November 2013); Departmental Food the average cost per Job Outcome for participants who have been on the programme for 24 months (to be published quarterly Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Minister for the from November 2013); and Cabinet Office (1) what proportion of food sourced by the average benefit savings for individuals who have been on (a) his Department and (b) public bodies for which he the programme for 24 months (to be published quarterly from is responsible was procured from UK food producers in February 2014). the latest period for which figures are available; [83788] The data will also be published on the No. 10 website. (2) what proportion of food served on the Downing street estate was procured from UK food producers in Government Departments: Procurement the latest period for which figures are available. [83735] Mike Weatherley: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Mr Maude: The Prime Minister’s Office is an integral Office with reference to procurement policy Action part of the Cabinet Office. Note 3/11, whether his Department has considered the Information for 2010-11 on the proportion of food value of the fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory procured by the Department and public bodies, which principles in relation to licensing. [83878] 1049W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1050W

Mr Maude: Following the outcome of the UK ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Government Open Standards Survey, a public consultation will begin early in 2012 regarding open standards in Animal Welfare: Cattle Government IT. Fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory (FRAND) principles will be considered as part of this Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for consultation. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many investigations into allegations of (a) acts of cruelty to cattle and (b) cattle being kept in conditions which Personal Income: Liverpool neglect their welfare have been carried out in each region of England and Wales in (i) 2010-11 and (ii) 2011 Luciana Berger: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet to date; and if she will make a statement. [82532] Office what the (a) maximum and (b) minimum household income was in each (i) ward and (ii) parliamentary Mr Paice: As these are allegations, the investigation constituency in Liverpool in the most recent period for would be unplanned. which figures are available. [84083] (i) In 2010-11 52 investigations were carried out. (ii) From April 2011 to date, 22 investigations have been Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the carried out. responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have We are, however, unable to identify investigations by asked the authority to reply. individual animal species, therefore these figures will Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated November 2011: not just apply to cattle. As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, The following table shows routine planned welfare I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking inspections carried out on cattle in each region of what the (a) maximum and (b) minimum household income was England and Wales. in each (i) ward and (ii) parliamentary constituency in Liverpool Welfare inspections by region (cattle) in the most recent period for which figures are available. (84083) April to The information requested is not available. Country Region 2010-11 October 2011

England 3,744 1,738 Public Bodies East 224 92 Midlands Mr Thomas: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet North East 148 30 Office what risk registers are held by his Department North West 364 194 and the non-departmental public bodies for which he is South East 360 164 responsible; and if he will make a statement. [83423] South West 1,992 1,012 West 384 131 Mr Maude [holding answer 28 November 2011]: Within Midlands the Cabinet Office each business group is accountable Yo rk s a n d 272 115 for managing their own risks and are responsible for Humber both maintaining their associated risk registers and for Wales 601 296 ensuring that their business plans and all projects, North Wales 271 70 programmes or activities which deliver departmental South Wales 329 226 strategic or corporate objectives, include the review of associated risks and that any mitigating actions are Notes: 1. Vetnet Codes: Beef—Breeding, Cattle—Growing, Dairy Cattle and implemented. Calves have been included in the data. Risk registers are kept and maintained as is appropriate, 2. Data have been provided at an inspection level and includes all at working level. A list of all risk registers used within inspections carried out for cattle regardless of the inspection result. 3. Please be aware that multiple inspections can be carried out at a the Department and its NDPBs is not held centrally visit, e.g. a visit where dairy cattle and calves are inspected will be and can be obtained only at disproportionate cost. counted as two inspections. The Cabinet Office also co-ordinate a number of 4. You will note that the number of inspections has decreased from last year. This is due to inspections now being carried out on a risk cross-government risk assessments to identify and assess basis. a range of risks for the UK. These inform wider cross- government policy making, including contingency planning Animal Welfare: Circuses and national security. Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the Serco answer to the hon. Member for Cambridge of 13 October 2011, Official Report, column 468W, on wild animals in Keith Vaz: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office circuses, from whom her Department has sought legal how many contracts his Department has awarded to advice on the use of wild animals in circuses; and if she Serco since May 2010; and what the (a) monetary will place such advice in the Library. [82562] value and (b) net worth was of each such contract. [83051] Mr Paice: The Government have already indicated they wish to exercise their right to legal professional Mr Maude: The Cabinet Office has not awarded any privilege in respect of this information, 21 June 2011, contract to Serco since May 2010. Official Report, column 240W.That position is unchanged. 1051W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1052W

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/ Mr Paice: The European Commission’s Common cmhansrd/cm110621/text/110621w0004.htm#11062168000154 Agricultural Policy (CAP) proposals were formally released on 12 October 2011 and are currently being considered Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for by member states in the Agriculture Council, as well as Environment, Food and Rural Affairs which local by the European Parliament for the first time, under authorities she expects to participate in enforcement of co-decision. a licensing system on the use of wild animals in circuses. We will continue to negotiate hard in Agriculture [82679] Council for a fair outcome for UK farmers and taxpayers. It is important that the UK (and EU) agriculture industry Mr Paice: None. We expect the licensing scheme for is well positioned to respond to the opportunities and wild animals in circuses to be enforced through inspections challenges of the future. We will therefore seek to by DEFRA appointed inspectors. ensure that a reformed CAP encourages the innovation, sustainable actions and market orientation that are Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for essential to ensuring the long term competitiveness and Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the resilience of the agriculture industry. The UK is also oral answer to the hon. Member for Cambridge of 13 committed to fighting for a CAP that is significantly October 2011, Official Report, column 468, who has simpler overall for farmers, administrators and paying offered legal advice to her Department on the use of agencies. wild animals in circuses; and if she will place in the DEFRA Ministers are in regular discussions with Library a copy of any such advice received by her EU ministerial colleagues over the reform of the CAP. Department. [82763] We have also been discussing the potential consequences of the proposals for all parts of the UK with Ministers Mr Paice: Since 23 June 2011, DEFRA has been sent for the devolved Administrations. legal advice by the RSPCA and was referred to an article in an online legal journal that can be found at: DEFRA will consult interested stakeholders in England to gather evidence and better understand how the http://webjcli.ncl.ac.uk/2011/issue4/pdf/rook4.pdf Commission’s proposals will affect different sectors of The RSPCA advice has not been published and it may the industry. We will work closely with the devolved be subject to legal privilege. The release of this unpublished Administrations, who will also consult their stakeholders, legal advice would need to be considered by the RSPCA. and seek to influence the detail of the legislation so that it reflects conditions and needs across the UK. Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what her policy Dangerous Dogs is on inclusion of welfare standards for all species of wild animal available for use in circuses around the Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State world in any future licensing regime. [82785] for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether any local authority staff have been injured by dangerous Mr Paice: In preparing proposals for licensing, the dogs in the course of their duties since June 2010. Government are considering what welfare standards [81001] should apply to all species, and which species have specific additional requirements. These will take into Mr Paice: This information is not held centrally by account international best practice. DEFRA.

Biodiversity Departmental Eggs

Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will publish for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps the criteria that would have to be met during the biodiversity she is taking to ensure that the same standards of offset pilot for the scheme to be rolled-out further. animal welfare for whole eggs apply to imported [84386] liquefied eggs procured by (a) her Department and (b) public bodies for which she is responsible. [83722] Richard Benyon: The biodiversity offsets pilots are being set up specifically in order to enable us to assess Mr Paice: We will be making changes to the Government the effectiveness of the approach. The pilots will run for Buying Standards mandatory criteria which apply to two years and there will be an independent evaluation fresh, in-shell eggs to ensure that eggs produced in of the process. A decision will then be made on whether, conventional cages—an illegal production system across and if so how, to support greater use of offsetting the EU after 2012—will not be used in any form whether across England. this is fresh, powdered or liquid.

Common Agricultural Policy Farmers: Supermarkets

Stephen Phillips: To ask the Secretary of State for Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps her Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what discussions Department is taking to protect the farming industry in she has had with her EU counterparts on introducing negotiations on the future of the Common Agricultural minimum standards in contracts between dairy farmers Policy. [83682] and retailers; and if she will make a statement. [77181] 1053W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1054W

Mr Paice: The EU Commission’s proposals for new Greenhouse Gas Emissions: Business rules on contractual relations in the dairy sector would allow member states to decide whether to make written Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for contracts compulsory for the delivery of raw milk from Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what plans she producers to processors of raw milk. There is no proposal has to implement section 85(1) of the Climate Change to extend that to contracts with retailers. Act 2008 on the mandatory reporting of greenhouse gas emissions. [83494] Food Mr Paice: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for gave to the hon. Member for East Lothian (Fiona Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment O’Donnell), on 24 November 2011, Official Report, she has made of the implications for food security in column 556W. 2050 of each extreme of the population range projection National Parks: Public Consultation made by the Office for National Statistics for that year. [80636] Fiona O’Donnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate Dr Wollaston: To ask the Secretary of State for she has made of the cost to national park authorities of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what assessment consulting with local communities on arrangements for she has made of the implications for food security in local governance structures in the latest period for 2050 of each extreme of the population range projection which figures are available. [84431] made by the Office for National Statistics for that year; [81276] Richard Benyon: No central estimate has been made. (2) what assessment she has made of food security in Each National Park Authority consulted as it judged 2050 at the upper and lower limits of the population appropriate and met the costs from its existing budget. range currently projected by the Office for National Those budgets are largely financed by unhypothecated Statistics. [83908] grants from DEFRA.

Mr Paice: The Office for National Statistics produce Timber population projections for the UK based on a set of demographic assumptions. Their principal projection Debbie Abrahams: To ask the Secretary of State for for the UK in 2050 is 78.4 million. Population projections Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what plans she become increasingly uncertain the further they are carried has to make possession of illegally logged timber an forward and the long-term figures should be treated offence across the supply chain; and if she will make a with great caution. statement. [83608] Our food security depends on access to the world market; and our domestic food industry needs to be Mr Paice: We are committed to eliminating illegal able to compete on the world stage. In a world where timber from the UK market. We will therefore put in climate instability can disrupt patterns of production, place the necessary legislation to implement the provisions food security cannot be delivered from a narrow, self- of the EU illegal timber regulation in the United Kingdom interested, national protectionist stance, or by by 3 March 2013 in accordance with the provisions of recommending self-sufficiency. the regulation. The regulation prohibits the first-placing of illegal timber on the EU market which will restrict its Earlier this year the Government’s Chief Scientist, purchase, possession and sale down the supply chain. Sir John Beddington, published a Foresight report into To ensure the traceability of timber products, those the Future of Food and Farming which looked at the businesses trading in timber and timber products further challenges today and in the future. It explored how we down the supply chain will be obliged to keep records of can feed a global population of 9 billion by 2050 their suppliers and customers. Implementation will include healthily and sustainably and identified hunger and putting in place a robust and proportionate enforcement environmental degradation as the key problems we face. regime, including appropriate penalties. The Foresight world population figures are derived from United Nations projections. As an immediate response to the report, DEFRA have signed up to a Foresight Action Plan which will DEFENCE include: championing an integrated approach to food security; Adam Werritty pressing for integration of agricultural GHGs into UNFCCC process; Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for taking forward Nagoya work on international biodiversity; Defence pursuant to the answer of 24 October 2011, Official Report, column 402W, whether any civil promoting the importance of sustainable intensification; servants were present at the 2010 meeting between the pressing for trade liberalisation and CAP/CFP reform; right hon. Member for North Somerset, Mr Adam showcasing what can be achieved on food waste reduction Werritty and Mr Matthew Gould. [78778] within the UK and share best practice; and increasing the productivity and competitiveness of UK food Mr Philip Hammond [holding answer 7 November and farming and ensure that agriculture and the food sector 2011]: I refer the hon. Member to the Cabinet Secretary’s can contribute fully to the green economy. report published on 18 October 2011. 1055W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1056W

Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for military bases, what his Department’s policy is on the Defence pursuant to the answer of 24 October 2011, taking of minutes of (a) meetings and (b) telephone Official Report, column 402W, whether any reports of calls between the Secretary of State and First Ministers the 2010 meeting between the right hon. Member for of the devolved Administrations. [77316] North Somerset, Mr Adam Werritty and Mr Matthew Gould were forwarded to the Foreign and Commonwealth Mr Philip Hammond [holding answer 31 October Office. [78779] 2011]: Departmental practice on the minuting of discussions between the Secretary of State and First Mr Philip Hammond [holding answer 7 November Ministers of the devolved Administrations is the same 2011]: The Ministry of Defence did not send a report as that for interaction with any other individual(s). of the meeting to the Foreign and Commonwealth Minutes are only required if there are substantive Office. agreements that need to be recorded and communicated to a wider audience, or which need to be kept as a public Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for record. In detail, a record should be kept: Defence whether (a) he, (b) officials of his Department to account for expenditure or to record financial or other and (c) special advisers in his Department have met Mr important decisions; Adam Werritty on official business since May 2010; and how many such meetings took place (i) on his Department’s where information or a decision has to be passed to a wide audience; premises and (ii) elsewhere. [78871] or where the message is too detailed or complex to deliver Mr Philip Hammond [holding answer 7 November verbally or may need to be studied carefully. 2011]: I refer the right hon. Member to the Cabinet Secretary’s report published on 18 October 2011, and to the answer I gave on 14 November 2011, Official Report, AWE Aldermaston: Planning Permission column 518W. Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence when his Department expects to submit a planning application for the proposed Technology Jonathan Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for Development Centre at the Atomic Weapons Establishment Defence what the cost of UK operations in Afghanistan Aldermaston to the local planning authority; whether was on the most recent date for which figures are an environmental impact assessment will be prepared available. [81544] for the proposed development; and whether he plans to request a defence-exempt environmental impact assessment Mr Philip Hammond: The net additional cost of direction for the proposed development. [83601] military operations in Afghanistan, rounded to the nearest £10 million, is shown in the following table. Peter Luff [holding answer 30 November 2011]: The Financial year £ million planning application for the proposed Technology Development Centre was submitted to West Berkshire 2001-02 220 council on 25 November 2011. A Defence environmental 2002-03 310 impact assessment exemption direction was granted by 2003-04 50 the Secretary of State for Communities and Local 2004-05 70 Government, my right hon. Friend the Member for 2005-06 200 Brentwood and Ongar (Mr Pickles), on 17 August 2011 2006-07 740 so an environmental impact assessment will not be 2007-08 1,500 submitted. However, a Defence exempt environmental 2008-09 2,620 appraisal has been included with the planning application. 2009-10 3,820 This provides the majority of the information that 2010-11 3,770 would have been supplied with an environmental impact assessment; a small amount of information has, however, Our estimate for the net additional cost of Afghanistan been omitted for the purpose of safeguarding national in the current financial year (2011-12) is £4,030 million. security.

Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether each nation participating in the ISAF Conflict Prevention mission in Afghanistan has access to the Afghan Mission Network. [82690] Ian Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Mr Philip Hammond: An individual from any nation pursuant to paragraph 7.4 of the Building Stability participating in the ISAF mission in Afghanistan is Overseas Strategy, whether he plans to publish a watchlist able, in principle, to access the Afghan Mission Network of fragile countries. [82354] providing that they hold the correct security clearance. Mr Philip Hammond: I refer the hon. Member to the Air Force: Military Bases answer given by the Minister for Defence Personnel, Welfare and Veterans, my right hon. Friend the Member Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State for South Leicestershire (Mr Robathan) to my hon. for Defence pursuant to the answer of 19 October Friend the Member for South West Devon (Mr Streeter), 2011, Official Report, column 993W, on Air Force: on 22 November 2011, Official Report, column 273W. 1057W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1058W

Defence: Procurement listed in the question, and among many others, the contract covers production of technical publications, Craig Whittaker: To ask the Secretary of State for periodicals, magazines, forms, business cards, CD/DVD Defence what the (a) original budget, (b) projected duplication, signage, scanning and microfiche services final cost, (c) expected timescales for delivery, (d) and internet services. primary contractor and (e) identity of additional The total cost of this contract between 1 May 2010 consortium members are in relation to the Soothsayer and 31 October 2011 was £11.78 million. This represents project. [81170] a reduction of almost £2 million from the contract’s total cost over the previous 18-month period: 1 November Peter Luff [holding answer 15 November 2011]: The 2008 to 30 April 2010 which was £13.56 million. original approval for Soothsayer was £150 million. The The Government’s Central Office of Information contract was terminated by the Ministry of Defence (COI) have also managed some printing activity on the (MOD) on 24 June 2009. The final costs are being Department’s behalf. Leaflets and posters printed through withheld as their disclosure would, or would be likely COI over the period requested have cost some £100,000. to, prejudice commercial interests. For delivery, prior to termination, the expected delivery date was April 2011. On 31 May 2010, the Prime Minister wrote to all The prime contractor was Lockheed Martin Systems Government Departments with plans to open up Integration and there was no consortium. Government data, with a specific commitment to publish Government expenditure over £25,000. This published Departmental Publications information includes payments made to CDS and to COI for any services. For the MOD it can be found at: Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/AboutDefence/ how many (a) leaflets, (b) posters and (c) reports his CorporatePublications/FinancialReports/ModSpend/ Department has published since May 2010; how much ModSpendOver25000DataFiles.htm each cost; and which company (i) published and (ii) designed each. [82996] Departmental Written Questions Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) has a how many questions for written answer on a named day central contract with Corporate Document Services received a (a) holding and (b) substantive response on (CDS) for the provision of printing services. The contract the day that they were due for answer by each Minister covers a range of printed material in both paper and in his Department since 11 May 2010. [84153] other materials using all forms of printing methods and technology. The contract can be used for Royal Navy, Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) received Army, Royal Air Force and other departmental printing 1,444 questions for written answer on a named day requirements. Identifying specific types of order, as from 11 May 2010 to 28 November 2011. Of these, 738 defined in the question, would require line by line or 51%, received a substantive response on the day they examination of records. The volume of orders placed were due for answer. All questions for written answer on through the contract means that this could be provided a named day that are not answered by the MOD only at disproportionate cost. substantively on the day they are due for answer receive Orders placed through the CDS contract may include a holding response as a matter of course. design work. Orders placed through the contract cover The information requested, broken down by each a variety of products; in addition to those products Minster in the MOD, is as follows:

Number of questions received for written No. of questions answer on a named day receiving substantive (11 May 2010 to 28 response on day due for Minister November 2011) answer Percentage

Secretary of State 274 78 28 Minister of State for the Armed Forces 264 141 53 Minister for Defence Equipment Support and Technology 319 179 56 Minster for Defence Personnel Welfare and Veterans 527 291 55 Minster for International Security Strategy 60 49 82

The MOD shall be providing the Procedure Committee Mr Philip Hammond: While I have had no formal with information relating to written parliamentary question meetings with Veteran Groups to date, I have had the performance at the end of the parliamentary Session. pleasure and honour of meeting with veterans on 16 Statistics relating to the MOD’s performance for the October at Royal Wootton Basset; on 13 November, 2009-10 Session were previously provided to the Committee Remembrance Sunday, at the Cenotaph; and on 20 and are available on the Parliament website. November, in Paris at the Commonwealth War Graves Commission ceremony. Ex-servicemen Defence Ministers and officials meet regularly with Veteran Groups on a wide range of issues. We also work Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for very closely with other Government Departments, Devolved Defence what recent meetings he has had with veteran Administrations, and Voluntary Sector organisations to groups. [83134] ensure that the needs and circumstances of the ex-Service 1059W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1060W community are known with the aim of improving veterans’ business since May 2010; and how many such meetings access to services and to assist with their transition to took place (A) on his Department’s premises and (B) civilian life. elsewhere. [78857]

Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Mr Philip Hammond [holding answer 7 November (1) how many times the Minister for Defence Personnel, 2011]: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave Welfare and Veterans has received meeting requests to the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas), on from (a) The Veterans Charity, (b) Veterans UK and 21 November 2011, Official Report, columns 25-6W. (c) The Royal British Legion; [84165] (2) how many times the Minister for Defence Libya: Armed Conflict Personnel, Welfare and Veterans has received meeting requests from Combat Stress since 11 May 2011; and David Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for how many of these requests have been fulfilled; [84381] Defence how many air sorties were flown in each (3) how many times the Minister for Defence month of the Libya campaign to the end of October Personnel, Welfare and Veterans has received meeting 2011. [82721] requests from the Falkland Veterans Foundation since 11 May 2011; and how many of these requests have Mr Philip Hammond: The approximate number of air been fulfilled; [84382] sorties flown by the UK armed forces by month in (4) how many times the Minister for Defence support of operations in Libya is given in the following Personnel, Welfare and Veterans has received meeting table: requests from the Soldier’s Charity since 11 May 2011; and how many of these requests have been fulfilled. Number of Sorties [84383] March 2011 180 April 2011 430 Mr Robathan: While we do not hold records of all meeting requests, I can confirm that I regularly meet May 2011 440 representatives of charities which raise money for, and June 2011 490 represent the interests of, current and former members July 2011 510 of our armed forces and their families, either on a one August 2011 540 to one basis or as part of wider forums, such as the September 2011 390 Central Advisory Committee on Pensions and October 2011 240 Compensation or the Ministry of Defence (MOD)’s Welfare Conference. In addition, from 19 March to 31 October 2011, C130 and C-17 aircraft flew 25 operational sorties that Since May 20111 am not aware that I have met landed in Libya; and, Lynx helicopters also flew 172 representatives of the Veterans Charity or the Falkland sorties in support of operations in Libya. Flights in Veterans Foundation. Veterans UK is the MOD’s Service support of Operation ELLAMY have also been flown Personnel and Veterans’ Agency (SPVA) online website. to and from Italy and Cyprus but the information on I regularly meet members of SPVA staff to discuss these sorties is not held in the format requested. departmental issues. Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Germany: Military Bases Defence what assessment he made of the satellite datalink capacity for communication between ISTAR Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for assets during Operation Ellamy. [82757] Defence what discussions he has held with the German Government concerning the NATO SOFA Supplementary Mr Philip Hammond: In Operation Ellamy, effective Agreement. [83571] information sharing was achieved via satellite communications. However, satellite datalink communication Mr Gerald Howarth: The Secretary of State for Defence, between ISTAR assets was not the primary means of my right hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and supporting near-real time coordination and datasharing. Weybridge (Mr Hammond), has not held any discussions Instead, ultra high frequency and very high frequency with the German Government concerning the NATO radios and military tactical datalinks were utilised to SOFA Supplementary Agreement. good effect. The previous Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox), did write to Military Aircraft his German counterpart at the time of the strategic defence and security review informing the German Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Government that we would be relocating British forces Defence how many (a) Army, (b) RAF and (c) Navy to the UK. fixed wing aircraft are based in (i) the UK and (ii) Germany. [82968] Jon Moulton Peter Luff: Information on all in-service fixed wing John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence aircraft based in the UK is shown in the following table. whether (a) he, (b) officials of his Department and (c) In-service aircraft include all bar those which are redundant, special advisers in his Department have meet (i) Mr Jon declared as surplus or awaiting disposal. Remotely piloted Moulton and (ii) Mr Tony Buckingham on official air systems and contractor owned fleets are not included. 1061W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1062W

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/MicroSite/DES/ Service In-service fixed wing aircraft WhatWeDo/SDP Royal Navy 10 Under these proposals, radioactive materials would Army 11 be removed from the submarines where they are stored RAF 696 at Devonport and Rosyth Dockyards. No transport of submarines from Rosyth to Devonport or vice versa There are no fixed wing aircraft based in Germany. would, therefore, be required. Navy: Standards Submarines: Training Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what recent assessment he has made of the fighting effectiveness, efficiency and morale of the Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Royal Navy. [84445] Defence what (a) the structure and (b) location is of the Submarine Sea Training Organisation. [84442] Peter Luff: The fighting effectiveness, efficiency and morale of the Naval Service is constantly monitored through an effective and well proven process, which Peter Luff: The Submarine Sea Training Organisation identifies, assesses and manages any risks to the delivery is part of Flag Officer Sea Training and is led by a Royal of outputs and objectives, reporting, as appropriate, to Navy Captain supported by eight functional areas the Secretary of State for Defence, my right hon. Friend responsible for the different elements associated with the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr specialised training. Training is currently located in Hammond), as Chairman of the Defence Board. Faslane for the Vanguard class arid Astute class submarines, and Devonport for Trafalgar Class submarine. Rescue Services Trident Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) whether he has reached agreement with the Secretary of State for Transport on any reduction in Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for the number of search and rescue bases; and where any Defence whether the Trident nuclear weapon system such reduction will take place; [82371] and its successor was discussed by his predecessor at (2) what discussions he has had with the Secretary of meetings on his visits to Washington on (a) 22 to State for Transport on the timetable for the transfer of 25 May 2011 and (b) 31 July to 3 August 2011. [80282] the Search and Rescue Service to his Department. [82372] Mr Philip Hammond [holding answer 15 November Peter Luff: I refer the hon. Member to the written 2011]: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave on statement made on 28 November 2011, Official Report, 22 November 2011, Official Report, column 275W. columns 52-53WS, by the Secretary of State for Transport, my right hon. Friend the Member for Putney (Justine Greening). Unmanned Air Vehicles

Submarines Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the cost to his Department is of deploying a (a) Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Desert Hawk, (b) Hermes 450 and (c) Reaper; how Defence how many submarines are available for many people are needed to operate each such unmanned operations or are on operations. [84443] aerial vehicle; and if he will make a statement. [83404] Peter Luff: The Naval Service has seven ship submersible nuclear and four ships submersible ballistic nuclear in Peter Luff: The Desert Hawk, Hermes 450 and Reaper various states of readiness for operational service. Unmanned Air Systems (UAS) were all purchased as urgent operational requirements. Total financial approval Submarines: Decommissioning for delivering and supporting these UAS including deployment costs on operations is shown in the following Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for table: Defence how many submarines he expects to be transported from (a) Rosyth to Devonport and (b) Devonport to UAV type Approval (£ million) Rosyth by means of (i) towing, (ii) towing on a barge Desert Hawk 42 and (iii) heavy lift ship under his proposals for submarine Hermes 450 181 dismantling. [82866] Reaper 1506 1 Includes funding to sustain the Reaper capability until 2015. Peter Luff: No decisions have been taken on where submarine dismantling will be undertaken but the Ministry The Desert Hawk, Hermes 450 and Reaper UAS of Defence has made proposals as part of the public tactical capability is provided by a total of 290 personnel consultation that is currently under way. The consultation consisting of command, aircrew, technicians intelligence documents are available at: and support staff, split as follows; 1063W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1064W

Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home UAV type Personnel numbers Department how many UK nationals were extradited Desert Hawk 63 to another EU member state under a European arrest Hermes 450 74 warrant in (a) 2004-5, (b) 2005-6, (c) 2006-07, (d) Desert Hawk/Hermes 4501 38 2007-08, (e) 2008-09, (f) 2009-10 and (g) 2010-11. Reaper 115 [84152] Total 290 1 Combined staff covering exploitation, command and support functions. Damian Green: The Serious Organised Crime Agency War Memorials: Theft (SOCA) and the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service for Scotland are the designated UK authorities Nick Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for responsible for processing European arrest warrants Defence what discussions Ministers in his Department (EAWs). have had with ministerial colleagues in the Home Since the introduction of the EAW in 2004 193 British Office on protecting war memorials from metal thieves. nationals have been surrendered by the UK to another [82855] European Union member state under an EAW. Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence has no direct Due to the way data was recorded prior to 1 October responsibility in this matter, but supports any plan to 2008 it is not possible to provide data on the number of protect the memory of those who have served and paid British nationals surrendered to each European Union the ultimate price defending our country. It is appalling member state prior to this date: that memorials are being vandalised and violated in the manner reported. British nationals surrendered I am aware that my ministerial colleagues in the 2004 5 Home Office have had a number of discussions with 2005 11 Ministers from other Government Departments to consider 2006 26 what approach should be taken to tackle metal theft. 2007 27 1 January 2008 to 30 September 32 2008

HOME DEPARTMENT 1 October 2008 to 31 March 2009 British nationals surrendered

Adam Werritty Netherlands 2 Spain 1 Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for the Total 3 Home Department whether (a) she, (b) officials of her Department and (c) special advisers in her Department 2009-10 British nationals surrendered have met Mr Adam Werritty on official business since Belgium 1 May 2010; and how many such meetings took place (i) Cyprus 3 on her Department’s premises and (ii) elsewhere. [78869] France 5 Germany 2 Damian Green [holding answer 7 November 2011]: Greece 1 The Secretary of State for the Home Department, my Hungary 1 right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), and special advisers have not met with Mr Adam Ireland 4 Werritty since May 2010. Information on whether officials Lithuania 1 have met Mr Werritty is not held centrally. Malta 1 Netherlands 2 Arrest Warrants Poland 8 Portugal 1 Spain 11 Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many requests for the surrender of an Total 41 individual under a European Arrest Warrant were received by the Serious Organised Crime Agency in 2010-11 British nationals surrendered 2010-11. [79002] Belgium 3 Czech Republic 1 Damian Green [holding answer 7 November 2011]: In France 2 2010-11, SOCA received 6,032 Part 1 European Arrest Germany 7 Warrant requests (relating to individuals who are in the Greece 8 UK) and 256 Part 3 warrants (relating to individuals Ireland 4 wanted by the UK). Malta 1 Member states will often issue an EAW to all other Netherlands 5 member states when the location of the individual Poland 1 sought is not known. The number of requests received, Spain 16 therefore, is not necessarily an indicator of those individuals Total 48 being in the UK. 1065W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1066W

Departmental Civil Proceedings already procured by our facilities management and operating service suppliers that meets buying standards Mr Jenkin: To ask the Secretary of State for the for food and catering. We will continue to work with Home Department which organisations that have received suppliers to gain accurate data and to identify what funding from her Department have brought legal potential there is to increase this compliance. proceedings against her Department in the last five years; which such organisations were not successful in Departmental Food their actions; and whether her Department (a) applied and (b) was paid for costs in respect of such cases. Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State [83890] for the Home Department (1) what proportion of food sourced by (a) her Department and (b) public bodies Damian Green: Judicial review proceedings were brought for which she is responsible was procured from UK in 2010 against the Secretary of State for the Home food producers in the latest period for which figures are Department by the Equality and Human Rights available; [83770] Commission (EHRC) in respect of the ‘Consolidated (2) what steps (a) her Department and (b) public Guidance to Intelligence Officers and Service Personnel bodies for which she is responsible are taking to ensure on the Detention and Interviewing of Detainees Overseas, that they meet the Government’s buying standards for and on the Passing and Receipt of Intelligence Relating food and catering. [83771] to Detainees’. The Prime Minister, the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs and the Secretary of State for Defence were also defendants to Damian Green: The (a) Home Office and (b) the these proceedings. The EHRC was unsuccessful in its public bodies for which it is responsible do not directly action. The defendants applied for costs and the contract for food supplies but procures catering services Administrative Court made a costs order against the through wider facilities management or operating service EHRC. The defendants will shortly start the process of contracts. As part of the Department for Environment, recovering their costs pursuant to the costs order. Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) led initiatives, we have begun work to establish the proportion of food Judicial review proceedings have been brought on already procured by our facilities management and two occasions by staff associations representing the operating service suppliers that meets buying standards interests of police officers, which are funded in part by for food and catering. We will continue to work with the Secretary of State. In 2008 the Staff Side of the suppliers to gain accurate data and to identify what Police Negotiating Board (which includes the Police potential there is to increase this compliance. Federation for England and Wales, the Police Superintendents’ Association for England and Wales Departmental Judicial Review and the Chief Police Officers’ Staff Association) challenged a decision of the Secretary of State not to implement in Mr Jenkin: To ask the Secretary of State for the full a pay award recommended by the board. The Staff Home Department what her policy is on (a) the recovery Side’s claim was unsuccessful. No application was made of legal costs from failed applicants for judicial review by the Secretary of State for costs. In 2009 the Police and (b) enforcement of any such recovery; and whether Federation for England and Wales challenged a decision any exceptions apply. [83917] of the Secretary of State to delay the implementation of new actuarial factors used to calculate lump sums payable Damian Green: The policy of the Department is as part of police officers’ pensions. The Police Federation’s generally to seek the recovery of legal costs from failed claim succeeded. applicants for judicial review. Where the Department Central records do not allow an electronic search to has sought to recover its costs and obtained a legal costs be conducted to establish whether a claimant was an order then it would generally seek to enforce the order. ‘organisation’, as distinct from an ‘individual’ but, apart Each case is assessed according to the individual from the instances mentioned above, the Department is circumstances and there may always be exceptions which not aware of any other legal proceedings that have been warrant a different approach on the facts of a particular brought against it in the last five years by other organisations case. which receive direct departmental funding towards their operational costs. Departmental Official Hospitality Departmental Eggs Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for the Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State Home Department what receptions and events have for the Home Department what steps she is taking to been hosted by her Department since May 2010, ensure that the same standards of animal welfare for including those sponsored by a third party. [84244] whole eggs apply to imported liquefied eggs procured by (a) her Department and (b) public bodies for Damian Green: We do not hold central records of all which she is responsible. [83769] receptions and events hosted by the Department. Damian Green: The (a) Home Office and (b) the Deportation: Offenders public bodies for which it is responsible do not directly contract for food supplies but procures catering services Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home through wider facilities management or operating service Department how many foreign national prisoners have contracts. As part of the Department for Environment, been (a) released and (b) deported since the introduction Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) led initiatives, we of deportation for foreign national prisoners on completion have begun work to establish the proportion of food of their sentence. [79771] 1067W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1068W

Damian Green: The power to deport foreign nationals Equality Act 2010: Legal Opinion where their presence in the United Kingdom is not conducive to the public good came into force on Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for the 1 January 1973. The following table shows a breakdown Home Department what legal advice she has received of the foreign national offenders (FNO) released between on the applicability of the Equality Act 2010 to staff March 2009 and April 2011. Data prior to 2009 are employed by the Police and Crime Commissioner after unreliable. 15 November 2012. [82916] FNO releases Released by Released by Nick Herbert: Police and Crime Commissioners and court UKBA Total their staff will be subject to all existing general legal requirements on public bodies, including the Equality 2009 1,044 164 1,208 Act 2010. 2010 1,137 118 1,255 2011 351 33 384 The Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act 2011 amends the Equality Act to make Police and Crime Commissioners, and the Mayor’s Office for Police The following table shows deportations from 1991 to and Crime, subject to the Equality Duty (paragraphs the second quarter of 2011. 380-383 of schedule 16 of the Act). FNO removals Number Firearms

1991 560 Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for the 1992 640 Home Department what estimate she has made of the 1993 550 number of criminal damage cases in England and Wales 1994 320 that have involved the use of firearms in (a) 2010 and 1995 330 (b) 2011. [83846] 1996 370 1997 360 Nick Herbert: The most recently available data are 1998 345 for 2009-10. In that year, the police recorded 4,085 19991 375 offences of criminal damage which involved the use of a 20002 — firearm. Of these, the vast majority involved the use of 2001 450 an air weapon, 3,646 offences, or 89% of the total. 2002 404 Data for 2010-11 will be available in January 2012. 2003 1,270 2004 1,660 Homophobia 2005 1,673 2006 2,396 Mark Hendrick: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2007 4,200 Home Department how many homophobic incidents 2008 5,395 have been reported to the police (a) in Lancashire and 2009 5,528 (b) nationally in each year since 2005. [83901] 2010 5,342 2011 Q1 1,339 Lynne Featherstone: The information requested is not 2011Q2 936 available centrally from the recorded crime statistics. 1 Figures for 1991 to 1999 taken from Control of Immigration Immigrants: Detainees Statistics United Kingdom 2001, page 95. 2 Figures for 2000—no data available from any source. Note: Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for the No reliable data are available prior to 1991. Home Department (1) whether the UK Border Agency has any plans to review its policy on the time of day at Detainees: Children which it visits homes for the removal of failed asylum seekers and illegal immigrants; [82091] (2) if she will place in the Library a copy of the Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for the guidance provided to immigration officers undertaking Home Department if she will publish any agreement home visits; [82092] reached with Barnardo’s concerning the detention of (3) whether guidance is provided to immigration children and their families under immigration law. officers on the time of day a visit should take place to a [77051] home where a child is resident. [82093]

Damian Green: Cedars, the pre-departure Damian Green: The UK Border Agency has clear accommodation for families with children which I opened guidance on the considerations that need to be made on 17 August, forms part of the new family returns when planning an enforcement visit, including the time process put in place to fulfil the Government’s commitment the visit should take place. to end the detention of children for immigration purposes. Guidance for the timing of operational enforcement Barnardo’s provides welfare and support services at visits to residential addresses is set out in chapters 31, the accommodation to help families prepare for leaving 45 and 61 of the Enforcement Instructions and Guidance the UK. The terms of the agreement to do so are which is available for public viewing on the UK Border commercially sensitive and are therefore not published. Agency website at the link below: 1069W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1070W

www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/policyandlaw/guidance/ Each case is reviewed on a six monthly basis and a enforcement/ range of internal Home Office and external data bases Where enforcement action is being considered to are available. ensure the return of a family with children, an individually The Controlled Archive is a hold for those cases tailored return plan will be referred to the independent where the Case Resolution Directorate (CRD) had tried Family Returns Panel. Enforcement visits will only take to establish contact with the applicant through the place when the Family Returns Panel has advised on the current set of processes and has been unsuccessful and most appropriate time of day to secure the return of the all checks to establish the applicant’s whereabouts have family, while having regard to the welfare of the children. been made and all information on Case Information The timing of visit for cases falling outside of the Database (CID) for the applicant is correct. family returns process is determined and also recorded When deciding whether to place a case file in the in the risk assessment that is carried out for each visit. Controlled Archive, electronic records (ASYS, CID), Visits should not normally take place either very late at and the case papers must be checked thoroughly to night or very early in the morning unless operational ensure that all steps have been taken to contact the planning indicates that a visit would be frustrated if applicant. All cases are subjected to checks against the carried out at a different time. Police National computer and Warning Index before All existing policy and guidance relating to the timing being placed in the controlled archive. The UK Border of enforcement visits is regularly reviewed as part of a Agency also has access to a number of further external programme of nationwide unannounced assurance databases including: currently being rolled out by the UK Border Agency’s UK Visas Database Professional Standards for Enforcement team (PSE). Voters registry DVLA records Immigration HM Revenue and Customs Department for Work and Pensions Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for the NHS Trace line Home Department what criteria she uses for immigration Immigration Controls files placed in the controlled archive. [81286]

Damian Green [holding answer 15 November 2011]: Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home The controlled archive is a hold for those cases where Department when the Government plans to publish the the case resolution directorate (CRD) had tried to response to her Department’s consultation on reform establish contact with the applicant through the current of family migration. [84150] set of processes and has been unsuccessful. All checks to establish the applicant’s whereabouts have been made Damian Green: The family migration consultation and all information on case information database (CID) closed on 6 October 2011. It proposed new measures to for the applicant is correct. tackle abuse, promote integration and reduce burdens on the taxpayer. The Government are considering the When deciding whether to place a case file in the responses to the consultation and will publish their controlled archive, internal electronic records and the response in due course. case papers must be checked thoroughly to ensure that all steps have been taken to contact the applicant. All Members: Correspondence cases are subjected to checks against watchlists and the police national computer before being placed in the Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for controlled archive. the Home Department when she plans to reply to the The UK Border Agency also has access to a number letter dated 17 October 2011 from the right hon. of further external databases including: Member for Manchester, Gorton, with regard to Mr UK Visas Database Zaid Khan. [83665] Voters registry Damian Green: A reply to the right hon. Member’s DVLA records letter was sent on 25 November 2011. HM Revenue and Customs Department for Work and Pensions Mike Crockart: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when her Department will respond NHS Trace line to correspondence from the hon. Member for Edinburgh West of 11 October 2011 and 7 November Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2011 regarding a constituent, Hannes Turnbull. [83866] Home Department how often immigration cases in the controlled archive are checked; what databases are used Damian Green: A reply to the hon. Member’s letter to carry out such checks; and how many staff perform was sent on 24 November 2011. such checks. [81288] National Policing Improvement Agency Damian Green [holding answer 15 November 2011]: The Case Assurance and Audit Unit are responsible for John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for the ongoing management of the controlled archive and Home Department what estimate she has made of the active management of cases which could not be fully cost of abolishing the National Policing Improvement concluded due to a barrier, the unit consists of 126 staff. Agency and creating its successor bodies. [81256] 1071W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1072W

Nick Herbert: The Home Office is working closely Police: Accountability with the National Policing Improvement Agency (NPIA) and others to ensure that the transition process and Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for the continuing functions are delivered within funding Home Department (1) what spending limits will be allocations. imposed on elections for police commissioners; [81871] (2) whether elections to the post of police John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for commissioner will be eligible for a free post election the Home Department what assessment she has made delivery. [81872] of the effect on the security of police IT of the abolition of the National Policing Improvement Nick Herbert: The detail of spending limits, campaign Agency. [81258] regulation and provision will form part of the secondary legislation under section 58 of the Police Reform and Nick Herbert: Protection and availability of information Social Responsibility Act 2011, and will be laid before within forces remains the responsibility of chief officers Parliament in the new year. who are supported by a senior information risk owner (SIRO) within their force and the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) SIRO for policing. Police: Appeals The police ICT programme, which is setting up the new police ICT company, is working to ensure the Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for the continuity and ongoing security of national ICT services. Home Department what steps she is taking to ensure there is an independent appeal process for police staff Police that are dismissed after 15 November 2012. [82917]

Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for the Nick Herbert: The Home Office will work with relevant Home Department which representative organisations partners to agree an approach that continues to offer within the police are recognised by her Department. police staff appropriate protections. [83664] Police: Firearms Nick Herbert: Police officers in England and Wales are represented by the following staff associations: the Police Federation of England and Wales, the Police Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Superintendents’ Association of England and Wales, Home Department what guidance she has issued to and the Chief Police Officers’ Staff Association. The police forces in respect of the renewal of firearm federation is a statutory body and its constitution and licences for serving officers. [82915] proceedings are prescribed by the Secretary of State for the Home Department in regulations. The other two Nick Herbert: The Home Office has not issued specific staff associations are not statutory bodies but, along guidance on the renewal of firearms licences for serving with the Federation, they are represented on the Police police officers. A serving police officer, while in the line Negotiating Board for the United Kingdom and the of duty, does not require a licence as they are exempt Police Advisory Board for England and Wales. These under section 5 of the Firearms Act 1968. If serving boards make recommendations to the Secretary of State police officers hold a prohibited weapon for private use, in relation to terms and conditions of service and other they would have to apply for, and renew, a licence in the questions affecting the police, and are consulted on same manner as a member of the general public. proposed regulations concerning those matters. Police staff employed by police authorities in England Religiously Aggravated Offences and Wales are represented by the following trade unions: UNISON, Unite, GMB, Public and Commercial Services Mark Hendrick: To ask the Secretary of State for the Union (PCS), Prospect, and FDA. Recognition of trade Home Department how many incidents of hate crime unions for collective bargaining purposes is a matter for against Muslims have been reported to the police in (a) individual forces rather than the Home Office. Lancashire and (b) nationally in each year since 2005. The Home Office meets with a range of other [83935] organisations which represent the needs and interests of police officers, including the national Diversity Staff Lynne Featherstone: The information requested is not Support Associations. The national Diversity Staff Support available centrally from the recorded crime statistics. Associations (DSSAs) are entirely independent of Government and are no longer funded by the Home Rendition Office. Police and Crime Commissioners Mr Tyrie: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) what her policy is on the involvement Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for the of the security service in rendition operations; and if Home Department whether her proposed mayors for she will make a statement; [83409] English cities will be able to influence the policing (2) whether (a) she and (b) Ministers in her priorities of elected police commissioners. [82772] Department have authorised the involvement of the security service in a rendition operation since May Nick Herbert: A mayor would be on the Police and 2010; if so, on how many occasions such authorisation Crime Panel for their force area. has been given; and if she will make a statement. [83410] 1073W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1074W

James Brokenshire: It is the policy of successive HM investigations. Provisions to deal with harassment involving Governments not to comment on security and intelligence any form of data communication is also covered in the matters. Association of Chief Police Officers’ Practice Advice The Government policy on rendition is absolutely on Stalking and Harassment. clear: we do not render people in breach of our legal As part of the Violence Against Women and Girls obligations. Should another state wish to transfer an Action Plan, the Government launched a consultation individual through our territory or airspace, we would on stalking on 14 November 2011 to ask for views on consider all the circumstances and only grant permission how we can protect victims of stalking more effectively. if we were satisfied that it would accord with our The consultation incorporates a number of issues, including domestic law and international obligations. current legislation, the effect of police information notices, We unreservedly condemn any practice of ″extraordinary search powers, the work of existing organisations and rendition″ to torture. We will not co-operate in any alternative measures to tackle stalking. The consultation transfer of an individual where we believe there is a real will remain open until 5 February 2012. risk of torture to the individual concerned. The The Home Office has been working with the Association Government’s clear policy is not to participate in, solicit, of Chief Police Officers, the Crown Prosecution Service, encourage or condone the use of torture or inhuman or the Ministry of Justice and a number of stalking charities degrading treatment for any purpose. The coalition to ensure that best practice guidance is disseminated agreement made absolutely clear that: through a series of regional events. This kind of help “we will never condone the use of torture”. and improved training can ensure that stalking behaviour is identified early and acted upon. Telephones: Nuisance

Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what estimate her Department has EDUCATION made of the number of complaints made to the police by recipients of unwelcome, nuisance or obscene Academies: Primary Education telephone calls and text messages in each of the last five years. [83699] Joan Walley: To ask the Secretary of State for Education pursuant to the answer of 31 October 2011, Official Nick Herbert: From the information held by the Report, column 434W,on academies: primary education, Home Office, it is not possible to identify separately the what weight he gives to improved performance (a) number of complaints to the police involving incidents against floor targets and (b) among pupils with special of unwelcome, nuisance or obscene telephone calls and needs in determining whether to convert primary schools text messages. to academy status; and if he will make a statement. [79228] Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) what her assessment is of whether Mr Gibb: Primary schools that are performing well appropriate arrangements are in place with are considered for conversion to academy status following telecommunications operators to support police an application being submitted to the Department by investigations into complaints, made from the recipients the school. In assessing a school’s performance we of unwelcome, nuisance or sexually suggestive and obscene consider the last three years exam results, comparisons telephone calls and text messages; [83716] both locally and nationally and the last Ofsted inspection. (2) what timeframe the police are expected to check Schools that are considered not to be performing well telephone records from telecommunications providers may still be considered for conversion to academy status as part of an investigation arising from complaints provided they convert in an appropriate chain arrangement received from the recipients of unwelcome, nuisance or with a school that is performing well or a strong sponsor. sexually suggestive and obscene telephone calls and text messages; [83717] Each application will be considered on a case by case basis, with the decision being informed by factors set (3) (a) what steps her Department is taking and (b) out in academies guidance published on the DfE website: what guidelines her Department issues to the police to http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/leadership/ ensure that complaints about (i) nuisance telephone typesofschools/academies/b0061257/how-to-become-an- calls and text messages and (ii) sexually suggestive and academy obscene telephone calls and text messages which are We will consider any other evidence of a school’s offensive to the recipient are investigated in a prompt performance which a school considers to be significant, manner. [83718] including contextual factors such as the number of pupils on the school roll with special educational needs. Nick Herbert: While the Secretary of State for the Home Department, my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), has overall responsibility Academies: School Meals for ensuring the delivery of an efficient and effective police service in England and Wales and setting the Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for national strategic direction of policing, Ministers have Education what recourse is available to parents in situations no role in operational policing decisions, which are for where school meals served in new academies and free chief officers of each police force and their constables. schools do not meet the standards expected of schools The Home Office does not set central targets for police under the Education (Nutritional Standards for School response times or assess support available during police Lunches) (England) Regulations 2006. [81135] 1075W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1076W

Mr Gibb: Academies are not bound by the school Children’s Centres food regulations but the Government believe that academies, including free schools, will wish to continue to provide Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Secretary of State for healthy school food. Parents who have concerns about Education what estimate he has made of the number of the quality of the food being served in an academy or a Sure Start children’s centres there will be in 2015. free school should raise their concerns with the academy [82232] through its complaints procedure. Sarah Teather: Local authorities have a duty under Capital Grant section 5A (1) of the Childcare Act 2006 to ensure there are sufficient children’s centres to meet local need. Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Many local authorities are reviewing their provision, for Education when he plans to announce how many and they must consult before making any significant local authorities will receive funding from his Department’s changes. The situation changes frequently and it is not capital grant to be allocated in the autumn; and if he possible to predict accurately the position at the end of will make a statement. [82895] 2015. The Early Intervention Grant provides enough funding to retain a network of children’s centres. Mr Gibb: Applications to the Priority School Building Programme (PSBP) are currently being assessed and we Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for will announce those projects which will go forward in Education if he will assess the number of designated due course. children’s centres following the introduction of revised On 3 November, the Secretary of State for Education, Sure Start Statutory Guidance. [82626] my right hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), announced an additional £500 million Sarah Teather: The Department will consult on revised basic need funding. The funding, made available from statutory guidance on Sure Start children’s centres in within existing budgets, has been allocated to 111 local due course. However, the definition of a Sure Start authorities that are experiencing the greatest pressure children’s centre is contained in section 5A of the on school places. Childcare Act 2006. The Act also requires local authorities The Department is hoping to announce future allocations to consult on any significant changes to their children’s of capital maintenance, devolved formula capital and centre provision including proposals to close a centre. basic need funding for local authorities and schools in Local authorities are asked to keep the Sure Start ON due course. database up to date with details of their children’s centres and this information is available on the DirectGov Children in Care website. The number of centres is only one measure of Sure Start provision, what matters most is the quality Ann Coffey: To ask the Secretary of State for Education and range of services that families receive. what assessment he has made of whether local authorities are meeting the requirement to inform the relevant local Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for authority when placing a looked after child in that Education what steps his Department has taken in authority’s area; and if he will make a statement. payment by results pilots to ensure children’s centre [83347] providers are rewarded in line with the outcomes they achieve. [82628] Tim Loughton: The Department does not collect information on how responsible local authorities are Sarah Teather: We have, in conjunction with the meeting the requirement to inform the receiving authority Children’s Improvement Board, identified 26 trial areas when placing a child. The Care Planning, Placement that are developing payment by results approaches for and Case Review (England) Regulations 2010 and statutory children’s centres in their areas. We want to use these guidance make clear that before approving a decision to payment-by-results trials to incentivise a focus on the place the child outside the area of the responsible core purpose of children’s centres: to improve child authority, the nominated officer must ensure that the development and school readiness among young children local authority for the area in which the child is to be and to reduce inequalities. placed has been notified. Final decisions on the measures used for national payment by results will be informed by early learning Children: Disability from the trials. It is for local authorities to decide which measures to use for local payment of providers by Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for results. Education what proportion of schools returned information to the most recent Schools Census on whether a child in Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for the school had a disability. [81543] Education if his Department will define what constitutes significant change to a children’s centre in the forthcoming Sarah Teather: Information on pupils’ disability was revised Sure Start Statutory Guidance. [83192] collected for the first time in the January 2011 School Census, on a voluntary basis. In the January 2011 Sarah Teather: Section 5D of the Childcare Act 2006 School Census, 14.5% (3,132) of schools provided disability makes clear that there must be consultation where there information for at least one pupil. However, for 906 of are significant changes proposed to children’s centre these schools the only valid disability code recorded was provision in their area. This includes opening a new ’none’. children’s centre, making a significant change to the 1077W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1078W range and nature of services provided through a children’s Departmental Audit centre, closing or merging centres, or reducing the services provided to such an extent that it no longer meets the Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Education statutory definition of a Sure Start Children’s Centre. how many internal audits have taken place (a) in his The revised Sure Start Children’s Centre Statutory Department and (b) in the non-departmental bodies Guidance will clarify the children’s centres sufficiency for which his Department is responsible in the last 12 duty and duties relevant to the core purpose of children’s months; and if he will make a statement. [82550] centres. Tim Loughton: A total of 341 internal audit reports were issued in the Department in the last 12 months to Class Sizes 31 October 2011. This sum does not include those undertaken by non-departmental public bodies as those Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of organisations are responsible for their own internal State for Education what the average class size has been audit services and we do not hold that information in (a) primary and (b) secondary schools in each year centrally. To obtain this information would incur since 2009. [82463] disproportionate costs. 1 Cross-departmental reviews, which involve audit activity in Mr Gibb [holding answer 24 November 2011]: The multiple business areas are only counted once. requested information is shown in the table. The total also excludes a large portion of other work Average class size state-funded primary and secondary schools1, 2, 3: undertaken by internal audit staff such as special Classes as taught4. England. January 2009-11 investigations, consultancy and advice, nor does it reflect State-funded primary State-funded secondary work in progress as at 31 October 2011. 1, 2 1, 3 schools schools To note, other Government Departments’ internal 2009 26.2 20.6 audit functions may service their agencies and non- 2010 26.4 20.5 departmental public bodies and therefore may have 2011 26.6 20.4 access to this information. 1 Includes middle schools as deemed. 2 Includes primary academies Departmental Design 3 Includes city technology colleges and secondary academies (including all-through academies). 4 One teacher classes as taught during a single selected period in each Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Education school on the day of the census in January. how much his Department has spent on design in Source: School Census respect of (a) logos, (b) buildings, (c) advertising, (d) stationery and (e) campaigns in the last year for which The latest available information on class sizes is published figures are available. [80204] in tables 7a-7c of the Statistical First Release ’Schools, Pupils and their Characteristics, January 2011’ available Tim Loughton: To get information on how much this at Department has spent on design for the areas mentioned http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s001012/ above could be provided only at disproportionate cost. index.shtml On logos and branding campaigns, I refer you to my answer of 20 July 2010, Official Report, column 261W, which details the breakdown of costs associated with Classroom Assistants: Greater London the cost of rebranding the Department when it was established in May 2010. Since then, corporate design in Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for areas (a) to (e) has been developed in-house at no Education how many teaching assistants are employed additional cost. This includes the design of simple logos within (a) Greater London, (b) the London Borough for our new executive agencies, which will be used for of Havering and (c) Romford. [83143] building signage, recruitment advertising, stationery and campaigns. Mr Gibb: The following table provides the number of teaching assistants (head count) employed in publicly Departmental Grants funded schools within Greater London, the London borough of Havering local authority and Romford parliamentary constituency in England, November 2010. Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how much funding from his Department (a) Barnardos, Teaching assistants (head count) in publicly funded schools— (b) the British Association for Adoption and Fostering November2010 and (c) the British Science Association (i) received in Teaching assistants 2010-11 and (ii) will receive in 2011-12; and if he will England 341,170 make a statement. [83100] Greater London 46,860 London borough of Havering 1,680 Tim Loughton: [holding answer 25 November 2011]: Romford 580 The Voluntary and Community Sector is key to the Note: development and delivery of services for children, young Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. people and families. This Department funds a number Source: of voluntary sector organisations, both directly and School Workforce Census indirectly through local authorities and schools. 1079W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1080W

Based on the information available in the Department’s Funding for finance system the funding made available to the named Name of helpline Calls per year 2011-12 (£) organisations in financial year 2010-11 is given in the following table, together with the estimate of funding 2010-11: 5,848 for financial year 2011-12. 2011-12 (April to October): 3,276 £ 2011-12 Family Lives (formerly 2007-08: 121,623 1,112,094 2010-11 (Funding in (Estimated Parentline Plus) financial year) funding) 2008-09: 66,123 Barnardos 235,045 1,927,979 2009-10: 66,474 British Association for 1,318,173 1,332,020 Adoption and Fostering Telephone Helpline 2010-11: 61,169 British Science 581,289 250,000 2011-12 (April to Association October): 28,368

Departmental Telephone Services Gingerbread telephone 2007-08: 9,569 282,181 helpline Stephen Lloyd: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008-09: 5,182 Education how much his Department has allocated to 2009-10: 5,677 each telephone helpline funded by his Department in 2010-11: 7,762 2011-12; what the purpose is of each such helpline; and 2011-12 (April to how many calls each helpline received in each of the October): 6,212 last five years. [77713]

Young Minds telephone 2007-08: 2,319 358,217 Tim Loughton: The following table shows funding helpline and calls for a number of telephone helplines which the 2008-09: 3,282 Department has responsibility for. There may be other helplines which the Department has funded in recent 2009-10: 5,920 years (e.g. temporary helplines) which are not included 2010-11: 6,282 here. The funding and call numbers shown may be 2011-12 (April to calculated using different criteria and are therefore not October): 3,528 comparable. Advisory Centre for 2007-08: 18,296 1219,843 Funding for Education telephone Name of helpline Calls per year 2011-12 (£) helpline 2008-09: 7,296 National DfE telephone 2007-08: 144,269 206,701 inquiry line 2009-10: 10,875 2008-09: 113,575 2010-11: 11,813 2009-10: 103,196 2011-12 (April to 2010-11: 87,583 September): 4,555 1 April to September 2011 only 2011-12 (April to October): 46,947 Education: Disadvantaged

Contact A Family 2007-08: n/k 394,445 telephone helpline Michael Dugher: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008-09: 8,968 Education what assessment his Department has made 2009-10: 8,226 of the effect of his proposals for education reforms on people experiencing social exclusion. [81934] 2010-11: 10,070 2011-12 (April to October): 6,212 Mr Gibb: We expect that the reforms set out in the White Paper ‘The Importance of Teaching’ will ensure that our education system compares with the best in the Coram Children’s Legal 2007-08: 6,694 314,242 Centre telephone helpline world. The reforms will create a system in which schools 2008-09: 6,092 are better able to raise standards and to narrow the attainment gap between rich and poor. We are clear that 2009-10: 9,007 every child, regardless of their gender, race, disability or 2010-11: 11,296 socio-economic background, must have the opportunity 2011-12 (April to to reach their full potential. October): 6,948 Our policy to invigorate the school system with autonomous academies and free schools can be seen Family Rights Group 2007-08: 5,009 273,455 bearing fruit in the above-average results of the earliest telephone helpline sponsored academies, and in new admissions policy 2008-09: 3,309 which encourages academies and free schools to prioritise 2009-10: 4,695 those in receipt of pupil premium. 1081W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1082W

A full impact assessment and an equalities impact English Baccalaureate assessment were published together with the White Paper and are available in the House Libraries. Andrew Percy: To ask the Secretary of State for Education: Finance Education what assessment his Department has made of the proportion of the statutory 25 hour school week which will be taken up by subjects that count towards Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for the English baccalaureate. [82887] Education what progress he has made in ensuring a more even distribution and allocation of funds for Mr Gibb [holding answer 25 November 2011]: There education services across the UK. [81979] are no statutory requirements around the minimum weekly hours which pupils should be taught. The lengths Mr Gibb: We recognise that the school funding system of pupils’ morning and afternoon sessions are determined needs reform. Currently, schools facing similar challenges by schools. Maintained schools and non-maintained can receive very different levels of funding, for no special schools have to carry out 360 sessions (190 days) reason other than historical decisions and an out of per academic year. date assessment of need. Two schools with the same needs should receive a similar level of funding. Schools decide on the timetabling of their teaching, and their approach to the proportion of teaching time In July we published the second phase of consultation allocated to subjects within the English baccalaureate on school funding reform, ‘A consultation on school will vary. The English baccalaureate consists of five funding: Proposals for a fairer system’. This consultation subject areas and pupils will take six or seven GCSEs to gave options and proposals for a fairer funding system achieve it; the average number of GCSE (or equivalent) that is easier for everyone to understand. We want entries per pupil is 11.4. schools to be funded on a much fairer and more transparent basis, and with schools receiving funding based on an up to date assessment of needs. The consultation closed Further Education: Finance on 11 October 2011. We will consider carefully the responses to the consultation before deciding how to Mr Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for Education proceed most appropriately towards a fairer and more what plans he has to provide funding for further education transparent funding system. colleges for pupils aged 16 to 18. [82360]

Education: Pay Systems Mr Gibb: Further Education (FE) colleges received their funding allocations for the 2011/12 academic year Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for at the end of March 2011. Indicative funding for FE Education what plans he has for consultation with colleges in the 2012-13 financial year will be set out in service users as part of payment by results pilots. the YPLA’s 16-19 Funding Statement, which will be [82629] published before Christmas this year. In line with the above timetable, final allocations for individual colleges Sarah Teather: We have, in conjunction with the for the 2012/13 academic year will be sent before the Children’s Improvement Board, identified 26 trial areas end of March 2012. that are developing payment by results approaches for children’s centres in their areas. Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for Education I expect all payment by results trials to put arrangements what funding bodies sponsored by his Department provide in place to consult service users. One of the criteria used support for skills for post 16-year-olds in Birmingham; in choosing the trial areas was a commitment to engaging what the overall funding is for each such organisation in key stakeholders, including parents and communities, Birmingham or the West Midlands for each of the next in the process. five years; and what the national budget is for each organisation for each of the next five years. [82764] Employment: Young People Mr Gibb: The relevant bodies providing funding to Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Education support 16 to 19 education and training nationally, whether he considered changing the curriculum to ensure including Birmingham and the West Midlands, are the the practical application of core subjects is taught for Young People’s Learning Agency (YPLA—a non- the purposes of increasing the employability of young departmental public body (NDPB) sponsored by the people. [83702] Department) and the Skills Funding Agency (an NDPB housing the National Apprenticeship Service (NAS), Mr Gibb: We aim to reform the national curriculum which provides Department for Education funding to so that it properly reflects the body of essential knowledge support 16 to 18 apprenticeships and is sponsored by in key subjects, leaving teachers greater flexibility to use the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills). their professional judgment to design wider school curricula The national budget for the YPLA in 2011-12, including that best meet the needs of their pupils. Teachers will be pre-16 academies, is over £12.2 billion, as detailed in the able to use this increased flexibility to teach pupils the Grant Letter issued by the Department on 6 September practical application of both the core and other national 2011 and available on the YPLA website. £48.4 million curriculum subjects to help increase their employability. of this relates to administration funding for the organisation We will be announcing our initial proposals for the itself. The total budget for 2012-13 and beyond for the national curriculum next year, following which there Education Funding Agency, which replaces the YPLA will be full public consultation before final decisions are in April 2012, has yet to be decided. Details on the made. indicative funding for 16 to 19 participation in education 1083W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1084W and training beyond 2011-12 (including 16 to 18 pupils in all publicly funded secondary schools by apprenticeships) will be provided in the YPLA’s “16-19 curriculum subjects is available in table 12 of the publication. Funding Statement” before Christmas. It is not possible Information for the curriculum taught by teachers in to split out regional funding/budgets because the majority secondary schools was not collected in 2009-10. Figures of funding is allocated directly to 16 to 19 providers for 2011-12 from the November 2011 School Workforce rather than via regional bodies. Census are expected to become available in summer The answer to the right hon. Gentleman’s question 2012. tabled to the Department for Business, Innovation and The School Workforce Census was collected in full Skills of 29 November 2011, Official Report, columns for the first time in November 2010. Previously qualifications 856-57W, gives detail in relation to the Skills Funding and curriculum information was collected in the occasional Agency, which predominantly supports and provides sample survey ‘Secondary Schools Curriculum and Staffing funding for adult (19+) education and training. The Survey (SSCSS)’. This was last undertaken in 2007. The Skills Funding Agency budget highlighted in that reply National Foundation for Education Research (NFER) does not include £799 million of Department for Education carried out the research on behalf of the Department. funding provided to the agency for 16 to 18 apprenticeships The project gathered information from local authority participation nationally, as detailed in the YPLA’s “16-19 maintained secondary schools for the qualifications of Funding Statement” published in December 2010 and their teachers and the curriculum they delivered. The available at: results of the survey are available from the following http://readingroom.lsc.gov.uk/YPLA/16- link: 19_Funding_Statement.pdf https://www.education.gov.uk/publications/standard/ As with the YPLA, and as set out in the answer of publicationDetail/Page1/DCSF-RR026 29 November 2011, Official Report, columns 856-57W, it is not possible to split out the Skills Funding Agency’s Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for Education budget on a regional basis. (1) what steps he is taking to ensure that the number of children studying music in primary and secondary schools Mayors: Powers does not fall; [82859] (2) what steps he is taking to ensure that all children Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for Education have the chance to (a) learn to play a musical instrument, with reference to the Government’s consultation on (b) learn to read music and (c) receive a sound music mayoral powers, entitled What can a mayor do for your education. [82861] city? A consultation, and the Open Public Services White Paper, what assessment he has made of powers of Mr Gibb: We published a National Plan for Music his Department which could be devolved to elected Education on 25 November, which puts the needs of the mayors. [82586] pupil at the heart of a new approach to music education. The Government are fully committed to high quality Sarah Teather: As the consultation paper makes clear, music education and this plan will ensure that every we are proposing to look to cities themselves to come child should have opportunities to learn to play a musical forward with proposals for decentralising services and instrument, learn to sing, have opportunities to play in powers to the city mayor. ensembles and have access to musical progression routes regardless of where they live and their family circumstances. Music: Education The plan reinforces the existing curriculum requirement for pupils to read music notation through which pupils are taught notation in a range of musical styles, genres Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State and traditions. This plan will make it easier for parents for Education what estimate he has made of the number and schools to support children and young people to of music (a) teachers and (b) lessons in primary and take part in music both in and out of school. secondary schools in England in (i) 2009-10, (ii) 2010-11 and (iii) 2011-12. [82615] Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what steps he is taking to ensure that enough music Mr Gibb: The information requested is not collected teachers are available so that every child has the chance centrally for primary schools and is not available in the to learn a musical instrument in school. [82860] format requested for secondary schools. There were 7,500 music teachers in service in publicly Mr Gibb: Specialist music teachers, together with funded schools in England in November 2010. This primary classroom teachers, play a vital role in the data is taken from our wider subject level table about quality of music education that children receive. The information for the number of teachers teaching curriculum National Plan for Music Education has a number of subjects in all publicly funded secondary schools in specific proposals to improve the quality of music teaching November 2010 is provided in table 13 of the Statistical These include a new add-on module to boost new First Release ‘School Workforce in England, November teachers’ skills and confidence in teaching music, and to 2010’. This is available at the following link: improve their capacity to network within music education http://www.education.gov.uk/researchandstatistics/statistics/ hubs. allstatistics/a00196713/school-workforce-sfr In addition, I believe that the plan itself, and the role The average number of hours taught in music in a that new music education hubs will play, will in themselves typical week to pupils in all publicly funded secondary be a significant stimulus to music education that will schools in England was 92,700. Information for the encourage more people to teach music in and beyond average number of hours taught in a typical week to schools. The plan makes clear that a potential role for 1085W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1086W music education hubs is to offer continuing profession of Physics is also working with the Department to development to school staff, particularly in supporting provide support to schools to increase take up of A schools to deliver music in the curriculum. level physics for which a total of £3,900,000 funding has been allocated over the period 2011-14. Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for Education whether he intends to publish a national plan for music Pupils: Assessments education. [82862] Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Gibb: We published a National Plan for Music Education how many errors were made in (a) GCSE Education on 25 November, which will reform how and (b) A-level examination papers in each year since music education is funded and delivered. The plan was 2000. [83472] placed in the House of Commons Library and can be found on the Department for Education’s website at: Mr Gibb: Responsibility for the independent regulation http://www.education.gov.uk/publications/standard/ of examinations and qualifications (including GCSEs AllPublications/Page1/DFE-00086-2011 and A Levels) lies with Ofqual. Comparable figures for uncorrected errors in live examination papers are only Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for available from 2006. The number of errors recorded in Education what funding his Department has allocated (a) GCSE and (b) A level examination papers in for music education in England in (a) 2009-10 and (b) England is given in the following table. 2010-11. [82944] Recorded Recorded A Mr Gibb: The table shows Department for Education GCSE exam Level exam funding for music education in England in 2009-10 and errors errors Total 2010-11. 2006 1 0 1 Our new National Plan for Music Education, published 2007 0 1 1 on 25 November, sets out future funding allocations 2008 2 1 3 and a new funding mechanism from 2012-13. 2009 0 0 0 2010 0 0 0 £ 2011 4 7 11 2009-10 2010-11 Pupils: Disadvantaged Music Manifesto Development 20,000 20,000 Director Music grants 200,000 160,000 Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Music Manifesto Website 80,000 30,000 Education how many children in England were eligible Music Participation director 100,000 100,000 for the pupil premium in the 2011-12 school year. Music partnership projects 1,000,000 405,000 [81523] Year of Music 500,000 300,000 Federation of music services— 450,000 350,000 Mr Gibb: Since April 2011, a pupil premium has been MSEP work provided on the basis of children who are known to be Federation of music services— 30,000 20,250 eligible for free school meals (FSM), children who are MIF in care and have been continuously looked after for six In Harmony 822,000 1,000,000 months and a service premium for children whose parents Singing money 10,000,000 10,000,000 are serving in the armed forces. In most cases the Music standards fund 82,580,000 82,562,467 premiums are allocated down to schools and for 2011-12 Music CPD KS2 129,100,000 1,100,000 are set at £488 per pupil for FSM and looked after Music and Dance Scheme 1— 31,500,000 children and £200 per pupil for the service child premium. 1 Indicates a brace. Based on returns from the January 2011 school census, 1,217,560 children were known to be eligible for FSM, Physics: Teachers 40,560 are eligible for the looked after child element of the premium and 45,070 children are eligible for the Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for service child premium in 2011-12. Full details of the Education what budget his Department has allocated allocations of the pupil premium can be found at: for the partnership with the Institute of Physics on the http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/adminandfinance/ teaching of physics; and what proportion such funding financialmanagement/schoolsrevenuefunding/ represents of the overall funding for the partnership. settlement2012pupilpremium/a0075963/pupil-premium- [83471] 2011-12

Mr Gibb: The Department’s implementation plan for School Leaving: Romford the initial teacher training (ITT) strategy ‘Training our next generation of outstanding teachers’, published on Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for 8 November 2011, announced the partnership with the Education how many students in Romford constituency Institute of Physics to provide up to 100 scholarships of left further education having completed A-levels or £20,000 to help attract more of the best graduates into equivalent qualifications to enter full-time employment physics teaching. The Department will fund the payment in 2005-06. [83140] of £20,000 to those who are awarded the scholarships. The Institute of Physics will cover the costs of Mr Gibb: The Department does not hold the requested administrating the award of the scholarships. The Institute information. 1087W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1088W

Schools (3) what estimate he has made of the number of secondary school children who returned to mainstream Stephen Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for institutions after taking prolonged absences due to Education how many visits he has made to (a) academy bullying in each of the last five years. [83513] secondary schools, (b) academy primary schools, (c) academy special schools, (d) free schools, (e) maintained Mr Gibb [holding answers 25 and 28 November 2011]: secondary schools, (f) maintained primary schools and Decisions about the approaches used to tackle bullying (g) maintained special schools since May 2010. [76608] and support the victims of bullying are best taken locally, by schools and local authorities, and these activities Tim Loughton [holding answer 24 October 2011]: should be funded principally from the Dedicated Schools Between May 2010 and 22 November, the Secretary of Grant. Where a child is unable to attend school and is State for Education, my right hon. Friend the Member not being home educated, local authorities are required for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), has visited the following to provide suitable education at school or in alternative types of schools: provision, the aim of which is usually to return the child to school. This can include education for children who (a) 14 secondary academies are severely bullied. The Secretary of State for Education, (b) five primary academies my right hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (c) no academy special schools (Michael Gove), has asked Charlie Taylor, his expert (d) two free schools adviser on behaviour, to conduct a review of how to (e) 18 maintained secondary schools improve the quality of alternative provision. The (f) 11 maintained primary schools Department does not collect data on absences as a (g) two maintained special schools result of bullying. He has also visited three ‘all-through’ academies which Schools: Closures offer primary and secondary provision, one independent school and two FE colleges. Dan Rogerson: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many schools closed in each year between Schools: Admissions 1997 and 2010. [82524]

Ian Mearns: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Mr Gibb [holding answer 29 November 2011]: The what the reasons are for his Department’s response to following table sets out the numbers of maintained the consultation on the revised School Admissions Code mainstream schools that have closed in each year since in respect of permitting only academies and free schools 2000. Reliable information prior to 2000 is not available. to give priority in their admission arrangements to The table only shows figures for those schools closed children in receipt of pupil premium; and what account and which have not been replaced. It excludes any he took of representations made by (a) local authorities, technical closures, i.e. those schools that as a result of a (b) local representative groups, (c) head teachers and change of status, character or a merger with another teachers, (d) faith organisations, (e) appeals panels, school are technically closed and then are reopened. members and clerks and (f) others in reaching that conclusion. [83572] School closures 2000 13 Mr Gibb: The Department consulted extensively from 2001 26 27 May until 19 August and received 1,337 responses 2002 31 from local authorities, local representative groups, head 2003 36 teachers, faith organisations, appeals panel members 2004 54 and parents. A response to the consultation and revised 2005 39 Schools Admissions and Appeals Codes was published 2006 41 on 2 November, which took account of the views expressed 2007 45 during the consultation. As set out in the departmental response, there was a mixed response to the question on 2008 50 giving academies and free schools freedom to give greater 2009 31 priority to children in receipt of pupil premium in their 2010 28 local admission arrangements. The Department proposed Total 394 this change to the School Admissions Code as part of its overall policy to break the link between poor pupil Schools: Rural Areas attainment and low family income. Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Schools: Bullying Education what assessment he has made of funding for schools in rural areas; and if he will make a statement. [82160] Andrew Percy: To ask the Secretary of State for Education (1) what plans he has to increase resources Mr Gibb: The Government have made clear its intention for organisations that work to return severely bullied to reform the school funding system. The current funding students to mainstream institutions; [82886] system is based on historical expenditure and an out of (2) what plans he has to decrease the number of date assessment of need. Our recent consultation on self-absenting pupils who take prolonged school leave reforming the school funding system looked carefully at due to severe bullying; [83512] how rural schools should be supported. The Department 1089W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1090W for Education is considering responses to the consultation deficit, the schools’ budget is increasing by £3.6 billion and discussing options with interested parties, including in cash over the next four years. This protects per pupil those who represent rural areas, before we decide how funding levels in cash and includes the pupil premium. to proceed. We aim to consult on more detailed proposals We also increased free early education for all three in the spring. and four year olds and extended it to disadvantaged two year olds. Secondary Education Sixth Form Education: North East Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what procedure secondary schools seeking Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for to provide 16 to 19 education should follow. [82702] Education (1) how many people aged 16 to 18 from (a) Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland constituency, Mr Gibb: Local authorities and governing bodies of (b) Middlesbrough Borough, (c) Redcar and Cleveland all maintained secondary schools can propose to alter Borough, (d) Teesside and (e) the North East were the upper age range of a school to add a sixth form. To enrolled in (i) sixth form colleges and (ii) school sixth do so they would be required to follow the five stage forms to start courses in each academic year since statutory process outlined in statutory guidance of 2008-09; [83575] consultation, publication, representation, decision and (2) how many people aged 16 to 18 from (a) implementation. The guidance can be found on the Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland constituency, Department’s website: (b) Middlesbrough Borough, (c) Redcar and Cleveland http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/leadership/ Borough, (d) Teesside and (e) the North East were schoolorganisation/a0075166/other-changes-to-a-school-and- enrolled in further education colleges to start courses in expansions each academic year since 2008-09. [83576] Academies can also expand their age range to include a sixth form. They are required to consult locally and Tim Loughton: Data on participation in education submit a business case to the YPLA (Young Peoples post-16 is published in a Department for Education Learning Agency). Ministers will then judge each case (DfE) Statistical First Release (SFR) entitled “Participation on its merit taking account of the advice from the in Education, Training and Employment by 16-18 Year YPLA. Olds in England”. Information on participation is not available at Secondary Education: Finance constituency or borough level. The following tables show the numbers and proportions of the cohort of Mr MacShane: To ask the Secretary of State for young people of academic age 16-17 in the north east Education what assessment he has made of the Institute region and its constituent local authorities participating for Fiscal Studies report on trends in education and full-time in maintained schools or academies, sixth schools spending for secondary schools; and if he will form colleges or colleges of further education. As the make a statement. [83095] figures exclude participation in independent schools, part-time education and work-based learning they do Mr Gibb [holding answer 25 November 2011]: Despite not reflect all participation in education of 16-17 year having to take some tough decisions to reduce the olds.

Table 1: Number of 16-171 year olds participating full-time in education by institution type End 2008 (numbers) End 2009 (numbers) Maintained Maintained school or Sixth form school or Sixth form academy college Other FE academy college Other FE

North East 17,400 5,000 23,300 18,100 5,100 23,800 Hartlepool 300 700 700 300 700 700 Middlesbrough 500 700 1,500 500 600 1,500 Redcar and Cleveland 200 1,100 1,500 300 1,100 1,500 Stockton-on-Tees 600 1,100 2,000 700 1,100 2,100 Darlington 200 800 800 200 900 800 Durham 3,700 600 4,700 3,800 700 4,900 Gateshead 1,800 0 1,500 1,900 0 1,400 Newcastle upon Tyne 2,600 0 1,500 2,700 0 1,600 North Tyneside 1,800 0 1,600 2,000 0 1,500 Northumberland 3,800 0 1,600 3,900 0 1,800 South Tyneside 500 0 2,200 600 0 2,200 Sunderland 1,200 0 3,800 1,300 0 3,800 1 The age of a learner is measured at the beginning of the academic year, 31 August. Notes. 1. Participation figures for 18-year olds are not available disaggregated by local authority. 2. ‘Other FE’ includes all learners in General FE, tertiary and specialist colleges (e.g. agriculture colleges) and FE provision funded by the YPLA delivered in higher education institutions. 1091W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1092W

Table 2: Proportion of 16-171 year olds participating full-time in education by institution type End 2008 (Percentage of cohort in LA) End 2009 (Percentage of cohort in LA) Maintained school Sixth form Maintained school Sixth form or academy college Other FE or academy college Other FE

North East 25 7 34 27 8 36 Hartlepool 12 27 25 14 28 29 Middlesbrough 12 17 39 14 16 39 Redcar and Cleveland 4 28 37 7 29 39 Stockton-on-Tees 12 20 36 12 20 40 Darlington 9 31 28 9 36 30 Durham 28 5 35 29 5 38 Gateshead 36 0 30 38 0 29 Newcastle upon Tyne 39 0 23 42 0 25 North Tyneside 37 0 32 42 0 32 Northumberland 47 0 20 50 0 23 South Tyneside 13 0 53 15 0 56 Sunderland 16 0 50 17 0 51 1 The age of a learner is measured at the beginning of the academic year, 31 August. Notes: 1. Participation figures for 18-year olds are not available disaggregated by local authority. 2. ‘Other FE’ includes all learners in General FE, tertiary and specialist colleges (e.g. agriculture colleges) and FE provision funded by the YPLA delivered in higher education Institutions.

Sixth-form Colleges: Finance The local authority has an overall duty to secure sufficient schools for providing primary and secondary Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for education in their area and must have particular regard Education what representations he has received on to securing special educational provision for children planned reductions in future funding for school sixth who have special educational needs (SEN). forms; and if he will make a statement. [83522] Schools are able to collaborate with each other and with the local authority in order to meet their own Mr Gibb [holding answer 28 November 2011]: We duties in relation to SEN and to improve the support have received many representations about funding for available to pupils. This will be particularly important 16 to 19-year-olds in school sixth forms from a wide for smaller schools. audience of interested parties, including letters from The Achievement for All (AfA) programme has been students, parents, schools and colleges, as well as from very successful at raising attainment and aspirations of representative organisations. children and young people with SEN or a disability. In 2011-12, the total funding for 16 to 19-year-olds Schools with fewer than 500 pupils, including rural will be over £7.5 billion, a record level. It means we can schools, can join together to make it easier to participate look forward to full participation in education and in the AfA programme. This would allow smaller schools training among 16 and 17-year-olds by 2015. However, to share the costs of participation. we have had to make unit cost savings by bringing Similarly, the current SEN and disability pathfinder school sixth form funding in line with colleges and programme is testing out the Government’s reforms reducing the requirement for the “Curriculum 2000” through 20 pathfinders in a range of areas across the entitlement activity. country, including rural settings. The learning will be We are managing these changes carefully and that is used to inform any future reforms. why transitional protection is in place this year to ensure that no sixth form, school or college, sees a funding reduction of more than 3% per student. Special Educational Needs: Young People Transitional protection in some form will continue to apply throughout the spending review period to help all school sixth forms adapt to the financial constraints the Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State sector faces. for Education if he will bring forward proposals to make it mandatory for local authorities to carry out learning-difficulty assessments for young people with Special Educational Needs disabilities or learning difficulties before they switch to post-16 providers; and if he will make a statement. Dr Poulter: To ask the Secretary of State for [82892] Education what steps he is taking to ensure that small rural schools have access to special educational needs Mr Gibb: Local authorities already have a statutory services. [82604] duty to ensure learning difficulty assessments take place for all young people who had a statement of special Sarah Teather: Rural schools may face particular educational need at school if they are moving from challenges in supporting pupils with special educational school into post 16 education or training. This provision needs and disabilities, particularly in responding to ‘low was made under the Education Act 1996 (as amended incidence’ needs. However, the statutory duties on schools by the ASCL Act) and section 139A of the Learning and local authorities are clear. and Skill Act 2000. 1093W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1094W

Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State concluded the need to review future affordability and for Education if his Department will take steps to sustainability of all public sector schemes. ensure that learning-difficulty assessments carried out Scheme valuations are normally undertaken every by local authorities for students with disabilities or three or four years to establish the cost of meeting the learning difficulties intending to progress to further scheme’s pension commitments. education are (a) conducted in an efficient manner, The most recent valuation for the Teachers’ Pension (b) completed and (c) form a reliable basis on which Scheme has not been completed because the Government to plan support or an appropriate programme of suspended valuations of public service schemes following learning; and if he will make a statement. [82893] the interim findings of the Independent Public Sector Services Commission. Mr Gibb: Local authorities have a statutory duty to ensure learning difficulty assessments take place for all A valuation of the Teachers’ Pension Scheme will be young people who had a statement of special educational completed in the future following scheme reforms. need at school if they are moving from school into post 16 education or training. In exercising its functions Teachers: Retirement under this section an authority must have regard to statutory guidance issued by the Secretary of State for Damian Hinds: To ask the Secretary of State for Education. Education what estimate he has made of the proportion The statutory guidance makes it clear that those of the teacher population which is likely to retire in the undertaking learning difficulty assessments should have next 10 years. [78259] the relevant expertise and a professional responsibility to deliver high quality and consistent assessments. Mr Gibb: In November 2010 there were 104,800 full-time equivalent teachers (excluding occasional teachers) Teachers: Finance aged 50 or over in service in publicly funded schools in England and therefore within 10 years of the normal Stephen Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for age of retirement for those teachers who were in pensionable Education what monitoring mechanisms he has put in service prior to 1 January 2007. Those teachers who place to assess the uptake of teacher release funding. entered pensionable service for the first time on or after [83679] 1 January 2007 have a normal age of retirement of 65. This figure represents 24% of the total number of Mr Gibb [holding answer 29 November 2011]: We teachers in service. In November 2010 there were 48,100 have removed from schools the burden of having to fill full-time equivalent regular teachers aged between 45 in long, time-consuming and cumbersome sport survey and 49 in service in publicly funded schools in England returns, which was a requirement of the previous and therefore within 10 years of the minimum retirement Government. Instead, the Secretary of State for Culture, age of 55 at which point they are eligible for early Olympics, Media and Sport, my right hon. Friend the retirement, with a reduction for early payment. Member for South West Surrey (Mr Hunt), will introduce These figures are based on school work force data a much lighter-touch system of measurement, focusing supplied to the November 2010 School Workforce Census. specifically on schools’ participation in competitive sport as part of the School Games. In addition, there will be Unemployment: Young People an independent impact study of the School Games which will sample trends in schools’ participation. The details of these are currently being developed, including Mr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Education the extent to which they assess the release of PE teachers. how many young people aged between 16 and 19 were not in education, employment or training in each quarter Stephen Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for of (a) 2008 and (b) 2009. [83645] Education for what reasons teacher release funding did not reach schools until September 2011. [83680] Tim Loughton: Estimates of the number and proportion of young people aged 16 to 18 who were not in education, Mr Gibb [holding answer 29 November 2011]: The employment or training (NEET) are published in the first payment of physical education (PE) teacher release statistical first release (SFR) ‘Participation in Education, funding was paid to schools, on schedule, at the end of Training and Employment by 16-18 year olds in England’. September 2011. The funding is for the academic year This publication contains the Department’s best estimate 2011/12, which started in September 2011. of the NEET rate and is published annually in June: http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s001011/ Teachers: Pensions index.shtml Quarterly data on the number and proportion of 16 Iain Stewart: To ask the Secretary of State for to 18-year-olds NEET in England are published in the Education with reference to the National Audit Office statistical release (SR) ‘NEET Quarterly Brief’. The report entitled The impact of the 2007-08 changes to most recent version was released on 24 November 2011, public service pensions published in December 2010, and includes statistics for every calendar quarter between whether updated statistical evidence is available on the Quarter 3 2006 and Quarter 3 2011 in the main document, affordability of the Teachers’ Pension Scheme. [83855] with an additional time-series extending back to Quarter 2 2000 published as “additional Information”. Both are Mr Gibb: The Independent Public Sector Services available at the following web-link: Commission chaired by Lord Hutton considered current http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/STR/d001040/ and future costs of public sector pension scheme and index.shtml 1095W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1096W

Young People: Disability Number and proportion of 16 to 18-year-olds NEET (actual age) Average number NEET in the three months November to January (% of 16-18 year cohort in brackets) Stephen Lloyd: To ask the Secretary of State for 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Education (1) if he will bring forward legislative proposals in the next parliamentary Session to provide young Warrington 460 450 370 460 360 330 disabled people with a legal right to a package of (7.3%) (7.0%) (5.8%) (7.2%) (5.6%) (5.3%) support up to the age of 25; [82306] Notes: 1. Figures for 19-year-olds are not available. (2) whether he will bring forward legislative proposals 2. Figures rounded to the nearest 10. on special educational needs to include a right to educational Source: support up to the age of 25 for all young people with CCIS (a) autism and (b) other disabilities. [82430] Youth Services: Per Capita Costs Sarah Teather: We are committed to developing a radically different system to support better life outcomes Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Education for young people with learning difficulties or disabilities, what the per capita expenditure was on provision of including those with autism. We want disabled young activities for young people by each local authority in people to have access to choice and opportunity at al 2011-12. [82656] stages of their education, with a range of supported pathways into employment and independent living. Tim Loughton [holding answer 24 November 2011]: The special educational needs and disability Green Section 251 financial returns showing outturn spend in Paper—“Support and aspiration: A new approach to 2011-12 will be published in January 2013. The amounts special educational needs and disability”—sets out our individual local authorities have budgeted to spend on ambitions for young people with learning difficulties services for young people in 2011-12 may be found in and disabilities. One of its central proposals is to introduce the following table: a single assessment process and new ’Education, Health Local authority planned spend on services for young people in England and Care Plan’ for young people with special educational 2011-121,2,3. Figures taken from s251 Budget 2011-12 statements needs, up to the age of 25, which will bring together the £ support on which children and their families rely across Total services education, health and social care. for young These proposals have been the subject of extended Total services for people per consultation. We are considering the responses and will young people capita spend be publishing a report by the end of the year with our 201 City of London 549,243 1,229 progress and the next steps. We will consider legislative 202 Camden 9,242,120 585 changes as we develop these proposals further. 203 Greenwich 6,822,240 386 204 Hackney 9,964,290 652 205 Hammersmith and 1,640,196 164 Young People: Unemployment Fulham 206 Islington 5,625,988 460 David Mowat: To ask the Secretary of State for 207 Kensington and 5,225,070 477 Education how many people aged between 16 and 18 Chelsea were not in education, employment or training in 208 Lambeth 6,348,865 385 Warrington South constituency in each academic year 209 Lewisham 7,447,636 387 since 1997. [82349] 210 Southwark 8,552,349 462 211 Tower Hamlets 10,532,639 647 Tim Loughton: The official national estimates of the 212 Wandsworth 7,599,030 537 number and proportion of young people who are not in 213 Westminster 3,452,150 242 education, employment or training (NEET) in England 301 Barking and 1,475,810 91 Dagenham are published by the Department in a Statistical First Release (SFR) each June. However, these data cannot 302 Barnet 3,499,823 127 be disaggregated to parliamentary constituency level 303 Bexley 4,065,000 199 because they are in part based on sample data for 304 Brent 5,801,081 319 employment. 305 Bromley 2,352,375 93 306 Croydon 7,616,964 256 We can estimate the number and proportion of 16 to 307 Ealing 3,853,295 176 18-year-olds NEET at a sub-national level using data 308 Enfield 5,733,687 233 collected by local authorities, but the figures are not available at parliamentary constituency level. 309 Haringey 2,515,689 166 310 Harrow 3,937,377 210 The figures for 16 to 18-year-olds who were NEET in 311 Havering 4,373,038 208 each year between 2005-06 and 2010-11, for the Warrington 312 Hillingdon 5,078,010 221 local authority, are shown in the following table; statistics 313 Hounslow 3,301,080 198 prior to 2005-06 are not available. Note that due to 314 Kingston-upon- 2,636,558 198 methodological differences, Thames estimates for young people NEET based on local authority 315 Merton 3,064,949 220 data tend to be lower than the official estimates for 316 Newham 6,558,360 320 NEET in the SFR. 317 Redbridge 857,306 36 1097W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1098W

Local authority planned spend on services for young people in England Local authority planned spend on services for young people in England 2011-121,2,3. Figures taken from s251 Budget 2011-12 statements 2011-121,2,3. Figures taken from s251 Budget 2011-12 statements £ £ Total services Total services for young for young Total services for people per Total services for people per young people capita spend young people capita spend

318 Richmond-upon- 3,093,527 226 813 North Lincolnshire 1,708,457 125 Thames 815 North Yorkshire 9,863,343 191 319 Sutton 2,116,950 128 816 York 3,096,030 182 320 Waltham Forest 2,996,039 170 821 Luton 3,367,538 196 330 Birmingham 13,097,206 134 822 Bedford Borough 2,081,468 146 331 Coventry 5,659,066 195 823 Central 2,075,808 97 332 Dudley 5,120,640 192 Bedfordshire 333 Sandwell 7,205,200 283 825 Buckinghamshire 4,572,444 105 334 Solihull 4,291,907 229 826 Milton Keynes 4,448,126 215 335 Walsall 6,827,567 294 830 Derbyshire 14,126,101 219 336 Wolverhampton 6,527,090 319 831 Derby 3,754,487 176 340 Knowsley 2,532,194 183 835 Dorset 7,633,300 219 341 Liverpool 10,583,634 276 836 Poole 2,130,538 185 342 St Helens 4,314,034 273 837 Bournemouth 3,201,000 239 343 Sefton 5,302,800 222 840 Durham 5,500,630 124 344 Wirral 7,773,100 294 841 Darlington 1,965,762 237 350 Bolton 7,489,700 315 845 East Sussex 6,579,034 152 351 Bury 2,068,569 129 846 Brighton and Hove 4,082,472 205 352 Manchester 4,618,110 112 850 Hampshire 12,297,900 111 353 Oldham 6,308,432 308 851 Portsmouth 2,693,300 153 354 Rochdale 4,297,783 229 852 Southampton 3,741,025 175 355 Salford 5,037,543 268 855 Leicestershire 7,925,337 138 356 Stockport 5,171,610 219 856 Leicester City 7,660,482 280 357 Tameside 4,350,600 230 857 Rutland 803,600 171 358 Trafford 4,644,040 265 860 Staffordshire 12,383,905 176 359 Wigan 6,236,617 238 861 Stoke 2,534,390 126 370 Barnsley 6,605,295 330 865 Wiltshire 6,112,847 148 371 Doncaster 6,585,850 264 866 Swindon 2,892,765 177 372 Rotherham 2,929,711 131 867 Bracknell Forest 2,195,434 207 373 Sheffield 7,670,180 157 868 Windsor and 1,831,660 138 380 Bradford 12,423,999 262 Maidenhead 381 Calderdale 5,556,593 318 869 West Berkshire 2,896,242 202 382 Kirklees 9,380,376 255 870 Reading 2,754,281 218 383 Leeds 16,267,660 236 871 Slough 3,383,396 335 384 Wakefield 7,593,560 274 872 Wokingham 1,952,450 130 390 Gateshead 3,497,245 223 873 Cambridgeshire 7,664,419 144 391 Newcastle upon 4,730,203 184 874 City of 2,781,022 191 Tyne Peterborough 392 North Tyneside 3,035,080 197 876 Halton 4,422,754 426 393 South Tyneside 4,621,136 355 877 Warrington 1,300,115 78 394 Sunderland 5,954,874 249 878 Devon 10,021,370 157 420 Isles of Scilly 148,996 861 879 City of Plymouth 5,883,090 257 800 Bath and NE 2,159,916 128 880 Torbay 2,566,290 240 Somerset 881 Essex 16,419,878 136 801 City of Bristol 8,344,076 247 882 Southend 2,461,680 185 802 North Somerset 2,221,305 133 883 Thurrock 2,105,543 151 803 South 4,171,000 178 884 Herefordshire 2,297,091 156 Gloucestershire 885 Worcestershire 9,076,864 195 805 Hartlepool 2,483,993 297 886 Kent 23,670,035 185 806 Middlesbrough 4,820,580 371 887 Medway 4,408,055 188 807 Redcar and 3,225,878 274 888 Lancashire 19,504,030 187 Cleveland 889 Blackburn and 3,003,200 207 808 Stockton-on-Tees 4,954,813 284 Darwen 810 City of Kingston- 5,532,312 234 890 Blackpool 1,993,664 163 upon-Hull 891 Nottinghamshire 15,721,828 241 811 East Riding of 5,475,770 191 Yorkshire 892 City of Nottingham 7,258,232 259 812 North East 4,386,100 307 893 Shropshire 4,152,350 162 Lincolnshire 894 Telford and Wrekin 2,882,827 188 1099W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1100W

Local authority planned spend on services for young people in England to follow up progress. We are also currently working 2011-121,2,3. Figures taken from s251 Budget 2011-12 statements with the Commission to make sure that the quality, £ timeliness and results-focus of EDF spending is reflected Total services in the new financial regulations for 2013-20 and not for young least the implementation of the EDF programmes at Total services for people per young people capita spend the country level. 895 Cheshire East 3,001,712 100 Kenya: Education 896 Cheshire West and 3,029,769 108 Chester Alison McGovern: To ask the Secretary of State for 908 Cornwall 11,441,998 259 International Development (1) what his policy is on 909 Cumbria 7,777,000 186 supporting low-fee private schools and voucher 916 Gloucestershire 9,166,388 177 schemes in Kenya; [83877] 919 Hertfordshire 18,789,563 200 (2) what assessment he has made of the potential 921 Isle of Wight 3,435,814 296 effects of voucher schemes and private schools supported 925 Lincolnshire 11,931,437 198 by his Department in Kenya on access to education in 926 Norfolk 4,777,147 69 that country. [83863] 928 Northamptonshire 6,884,136 116 929 Northumberland 5,602,335 228 Mr Duncan: The Department for International 931 Oxfordshire 8,794,470 151 Development (DFID) programme in Kenya supports 933 Somerset 6,959,665 147 low-fee private schools. These schools often charge as 935 Suffolk 12,468,944 206 little as £2 per month. Many of them are in and around 936 Surrey 15,311,824 163 urban slums. Families living in these areas often do not 937 Warwickshire 9,185,880 203 have access to state schools, and low-fee private schools 938 West Sussex 8,811,512 132 offer the only affordable opportunity to educate their England 883,372,160 200 children. This year, the DFID programme in Kenya contributed complete sets of textbooks to 250,000 children Minimum per capita — 36 in 1,100 low-fee private schools across the country. Maximum per — 1,229 The DFID programme in Kenya does not currently capita support vouchers for education, but does provide cash 1 Data are as reported by LAs in their s251 Budget returns. transfers of around £9 per month to almost 100,000 of 2 Total services for young people includes spend on universal services Kenya’s poorest households containing orphans or other for young people (including youth work, positive activities, Connexions vulnerable children. These cash transfers have proved to and information, advice and guidance), targeted services for young be effective in meeting basic needs, including the education people (including youth work, positive activities and information, advice and guidance), substance misuse services (Drugs, Alcohol, and and health care of the children in beneficiary households. Volatile substances), teenage pregnancy services, discretionary awards and student support. 3 Population data used to calculate per capita spend are as at 1 January 2012 (projected), and includes all 13 to 19-year-olds inclusive, HEALTH as at previous 31 August. Estimates are derived from Office for National Statistics (ONS) mid-year population estimates (to 2010) and mid-2008 based sub-national population projections and internal Cancer: Ethnic Groups DfE modelling for 2011 onwards. Heidi Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for Health with reference to the 2010 National Cancer INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Patient Experience Survey, what steps his Department is taking to improve the experience of black and other European Development Fund minority ethnic patients with cancer. [84297]

Stephen Phillips: To ask the Secretary of State for Paul Burstow: The National Cancer Action Team International Development what steps his Department (NCAT) has established the National Black and Minority is taking to encourage speedier distribution of funds Ethnic (BME) Cancer Voice, a cancer patient advisory from the European Development Fund. [83683] panel, to understand the issues facing people who have been affected by cancer from BME communities. The Mr Duncan: The Department for International 2010 Cancer Patient Experience Survey highlighted the Development (DFID) monitors spending and results of variation in the views of patients from BME communities the European Commission’s European Development compared to white cancer patients. A number of culturally Fund (EDF) through the EDF Management Committee diverse surveys have been developed to further understand and the Council’s Africa, Caribbean and Pacific (ACP) the reasons for the poor perception of care with the aim Working Group. At the partner country level; DFID of working towards improvements. meets regularly with the EU Delegations and member Qualitative based research has also been undertaken states to follow up on progress on EDF implementation, with a number of trusts that followed up the NCAT spend and delivery of results. 2009-10 culturally sensitive baseline audit; an audit In October 2011, DFID achieved a strong EU Council which asked trusts about their policies and services conclusion on the need to improve the efficiency, results relating to BME communities. This research has been and monitoring of the EDF as part of the 2011 EDF carried out in partnership with Breast Cancer Care, and Performance Review. We will use upcoming EDF meetings has been focused on finding where best practice already 1101W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1102W exists in providing culturally diverse cancer services. A Hospital Beds: Lancashire report aimed at commissioners and providers will be available in early 2012. The 2010 survey data have been analysed by equality Mark Hendrick: To ask the Secretary of State for group. Evidence was found of many differences, including Health how many beds were available for people with BME patients being more likely to report not receiving (a) mental health needs and (b) neurological understandable answers to their questions and not being conditions in Central Lancashire Primary Care Trust in given enough care after discharge. These findings, along (i) 2006 and (ii) the latest period for which figures are with many others, have been shared with cancer networks, available. [83867] along with suggestions for action to reduce these differences in reported experience. Paul Burstow: Data are not collected for neurological beds. Information on the average daily number of available Dementia: Diagnosis beds open overnight for mental illness in 2005-06 and for the latest period is shown in the following table. Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps his Department is taking to Available mental illness increase GPs’ ability to identify dementia sufferers. Period Organisation beds (open overnight) [82894] 2005-06 Lancashire Care NHS 691 Trust Paul Burstow: The Department has been working 2011-12 Lancashire Care NHS 629 with strategic health authorities and deaneries to trial a quarter 2 Foundation Trust new approach to dementia education and training for Notes: general practitioners (GPs) and practice staff. This involves 1. Information is given for Lancashire Care NHS Foundation Trust primary care teams coming together to reflect on and which provides mental health services in the Central Lancashire Primary Care Trust area. self-assess their practice and identify ways in which they 2. Beds for 2005-06 were collected by ward type and included all beds can improve care of people with dementia and their on the following wards: carers. More generally, the National Clinical Director Mental illness: children: short stay for Dementia has also been working closely with the Mental illness: children: long stay Royal College of GPs on issues relating to dementia Mental illness: elderly: short stay education and training. Mental illness: elderly: long stay Mental illness: other ages: secure unit Mental illness: other ages: short stay Health: Children Mental illness: other ages: long stay 3. Beds for 2011-12 Quarter 2 were collected by consultant speciality and only include beds where the patient is under the care of a Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for consultant and covered the following consultant specialities: Health if he will bring forward proposals to amend the 710 adult mental illness Health and Social Care Bill to require joint working 711 child and adolescent psychiatry between health and education services in respect of the 712 forensic psychiatry needs of children. [84067] 713 psychotherapy 715 old age psychiatry Source: Anne Milton: Health and wellbeing Boards will be a Department of Health form KH03 forum for the national health service, local authorities and communities to exercise shared leadership in arriving at a joint understanding of local needs, including the Hospitals: Food needs of local children and a shared strategy to address those needs. Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State The director of Children’s Services will be a statutory for Health (1) whether food procured by each primary member of the board. The health and wellbeing board care trust meets the Government’s buying standards will have powers to encourage close working with for food and catering; [83727] commissioners of health related services, which could include education services, where these have an effect on (2) what steps he is taking to ensure that the same health. Clinical commissioning groups must exercise standards of animal welfare for whole eggs apply to their functions with a view to securing that the provision imported liquefied eggs procured by (a) his Department of health services is integrated with the provision of and (b) public bodies for which he is responsible; health related services, which could include education [83728] services. (3) what proportion of food sourced by (a) his Department and (b) public bodies for which he is Hepatitis: Health Services responsible was procured from UK food producers in the latest period for which figures are available; [83729] Heidi Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for (4) what proportion of food sourced by each primary Health how much he expects the NHS to spend on care trust was procured from UK food producers in the hepatitis C in each year for the next four years. [84298] latest period for which figures are available; [83730] Anne Milton: Expenditure on services for hepatitis C (5) what steps (a) his Department and (b) public provided by the national health service is a matter for bodies for which he is responsible are taking to ensure local NHS commissioners to determine in the light of that they meet the Government’s buying standards for local needs and priorities. food and catering. [83731] 1103W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1104W

Paul Burstow: The Department is working closely needs, risks and choices assessed by the 12th week of with its catering supplier on the adoption of the their pregnancy, which enables good care planning Government Buying Standards (GBS) for Food and throughout pregnancy, birth and afterwards. Catering Services, as issued, for the first time, in June The Department has recently (October 2011) launched 2011. The Department can confirm that the majority of ’Preparing for Birth and Beyond’ pack, a new online the ’mandatory’ standards are already being met. resource pack developed in partnership with parenting National health service trusts are not mandated to organisations, antenatal educationalists, researchers, adopt GBS. However, they are encouraged to adopt the practitioners and service leaders, that can help organisations GBS for Food and Catering Services through the 2011-12 and practitioners run antenatal education classes tailored NHS Operating Framework, as well as through guidance for their communities. The pack is based on a refreshed and training materials developed for the NHS on sustainable approach to antenatal education, following a systematic and low carbon procurement. review of the evidence and views of the professionals, The Department is also working with The Department what parents want and what is available. It still covers for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on a potential preparation for birth, but also emphasises the developing demonstration project supporting pilot NHS organisations child, the emotional transition to parenthood and family in adopting the GBS for Food and Catering Services. relationships and recognises the need to include fathers and other partners in groups and activities. The Department does not hold information centrally on whether food procured by each primary care trust meets the Government’s buying standards for food and Medicine: Wholesale Trade catering. GBS for Food and Catering Services, includes a ’best Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for Health practice’ requirement that, what steps his Department has taken to (a) review and “All eggs, including liquid and powdered eggs, are sourced (b) reduce the number of wholesaler dealer licences for from systems that do not use conventional cages. If from a caged medicinal products. [84065] system, enriched cages are used.” The Department, and its arm’s length bodies are Mr Simon Burns: The Medicines and Healthcare required to meet the ’mandatory’ level standards under products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) an executive GBS (as per the Greening Government Commitments), agency of the Department, regulates manufacturers and are encouraged to review performance against these and wholesale dealers of medicinal products for human standards and assess the potential for adopting ’best use in the United Kingdom on behalf of the UK practice’ standards. Licensing Authority (LA). In respect to liquefied eggs, the Department does not The MHRA has not reviewed the number of authorised currently procure such products. NHS trusts are encouraged wholesale dealers in the UK or taken steps to reduce the to adopt the GBS for Food and Catering Services number of such traders. through the 2011-12 NHS Operating Framework, as The MHRA has a legal responsibility to assess all well as through guidance and training materials developed applications made for a wholesale dealers licence and for the NHS on sustainable and low carbon procurement. will grant a wholesale dealer’s licence where the applicant The proportion of food sourced by the Department’s meets UK provisions and community obligations for catering supplier, from United Kingdom food producers the safe storage and distribution of medicinal products since April 2011, is 24%. For NHS Supply Chain national in the UK or to revoke a granted licence for non contracts in 2008-09, the overall proportion of indigenous compliance. food (i.e. food that can be grown in the UK) that was UK sourced in this period was 64.5%, as reported in the Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Public Sector Food Procurement Initiative report (2010). what discussions (a) he and (b) his officials have had The Department does not hold centrally information with the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory on what proportion of food sourced by each primary Agency on the (a) separation of pharmaceutical care trust was procured from UK food producers in the wholesaling from dispensing activities within pharmacies latest period for which figures are available. and (b) implementation of recommendation 6 of the EU High-Level Pharmaceutical Forum G10. [84066] Maternity Services: Low Incomes Paul Burstow: Ministers and departmental officials Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health meet regularly with the Medicines and Healthcare products what assessment he has made of the Royal College of Regulatory Agency (MHRA) to discuss a range of Midwives and Netmums survey showing that women policy issues. from lower incomes were denied ante-natal classes and Pharmacies are currently exempt from having to hold the choice of a birth at home. [84379] a wholesale dealer’s licence by virtue of Section 10(7) of the Medicines Act 1968. In October 2011 the MHRA Anne Milton: There are many different ways of providing brought forward proposals for the repeal of section antenatal education from one to one discussions to 10(7), on the basis that it conflicts with European workshop style groups. All mothers should discuss their Union legislation. The proposed change would take birth plan with their midwife or doctor to find the best place as part of a consolidation of existing medicines birth setting for them. legislation, currently being consulted upon by the MHRA. Midwives, doctors, and nurses encourage pregnant The repeal of 10(7) will require that, in future, any women to attend services early and the latest data pharmacy that wishes to engage in commercial wholesale shows 92% of women have their health and social care, dealing activity must hold a wholesale dealer’s licence. 1105W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1106W

In implementing Recommendation 6 from the EU PCT Swindon; and High-Level Pharmaceutical Forum G10, the MHRA PCT Wiltshire. has concentrated on working with the UK’s Health NHS Prescription Services does not capture patient Technology Assessment body—the National Institute data and therefore can not provide any information on for Health and Clinical Excellence—to provide joint the age of the patient or the medical condition the scientific advice to companies during the drug development patient was being treated for. process.

Palliative Care: Finance FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for Health pursuant to the answer of 22 November 2011, Departmental Food Official Report, column 352W, on palliative care, what steps he has taken to ensure that hospitals receive adequate funding for palliative care in proportion to Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for the amount of such care provided. [84430] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what proportion of food sourced by (a) his Department and (b) public Paul Burstow: It is the responsibility of commissioners bodies for which he is responsible was procured from to decide how much money is allocated for specific UK food producers in the latest period for which figures services at a local level. are available. [83733] The Government have made a commitment to develop a per-patient funding system for palliative care. The Mr Lidington: The proportion of food sourced by the independent Palliative Care Funding Review, which Foreign and Commonwealth Office in the UK procured we set up in summer 2010, was asked to make from UK food producers is as follows: recommendations on how we can develop a per-patient funding system that encourages more community-based Percentage care, supports people to choose from whom they receive 2010-11 25 the care they need; and that will be fair to all organisations April 2011 to date 25 involved. The review has come up with a range of significant “Produced in the UK” is defined as of guaranteed proposals which we now need to consider in detail. This UK provenance which can be fully traced back to the work will be informed by local palliative care funding source, ie food that has been grown and harvested or pilots which will collect a range of data to help test the born, bred and slaughtered in the UK. Therefore we review’s recommendations. The call for expressions of have not included any products that, even though may interest in being a pilot site was published on 28 November have been produced or manufactured in the UK, are of 2011 and the pilots will be established from April 2012. mixed origin. The aim is have to have a new funding system in place In addition we can confirm the following: by 2015. 100% of our fresh beef is UK sourced Respiratory Syncytial Virus: Vaccination 100%of our fresh pork joints is UK sourced 100% of fresh milk is both UK sourced and Red Tractor John Howell: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 100% of shell eggs are UK sourced and Lion marked what guidance his Department has issued on the All of our potatoes and root vegetables are sourced from UK availability of the Palivizumab vaccine; and which when in season primary care trusts prescribe respiratory syncytial virus The data for 2010-11 relating to this request and vaccinations of Palivizumab in cases of chronic chest other food related targets is published on the FCO infections in children. [84354] website. It would incur disproportionate cost to source this Anne Milton: Guidance issued by the Department on information from our network of posts and our public the use and sourcing of Palivizumab is in the online bodies as this information is held locally. Respiratory Syncytial Virus chapter of ‘Immunisation against infectious disease’ (also known as ‘the Green Book’) available on the Department’s website at: Departmental Publications www.dh.gov.uk/prod_consum_dh/groups/dh_digitalassets/ @dh/@en/documents/digitalasset/dh_130131.pdf Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign A copy of this has been placed in the Library. and Commonwealth Affairs how many (a) leaflets, (b) The NHS Prescription Services indicated that the posters and (c) reports his Department has published following primary care trusts (PCTs) in England prescribed since May 2010; how much each cost; and which Palivizumab Vaccine in the period October 2010 to company (i) published and (ii) designed each. [82992] September 2011: PCT Devon; Mr Lidington: Finances within the Foreign and Commonwealth Office are devolved to individual PCT East Riding of Yorkshire; directorates in the UK and to our network of posts PCT Gloucestershire; overseas. This information is not held centrally in the PCT Havering; form requested and is available only at disproportionate PCT Kensington and Chelsea; cost. 1107W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1108W

Departmental Training transition to civilian-led democratic rule and elections that are free, fair, credible and secure. He discussed the Andrew Miller: To ask the Secretary of State for situation and the forthcoming elections with the Egyptian Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what training staff Foreign Minister on 24 November. of his Department are given in the use of privacy screen panels to protect sensitive data. [83621] Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps his Department Mr Lidington: Privacy filters are available to Foreign has taken to support the forthcoming parliamentary and Commonwealth Office (FCO) staff and their use is elections in Egypt. [83688] promoted to mitigate the risk of “shoulder surfing”. The FCO takes information security very seriously and Alistair Burt: The UK is committed to supporting uses a variety of measures to meet the risks posed from the process of political transition in Egypt, including working remotely, in accordance with mandatory the parliamentary elections. The Carter Centre is one requirements set out in the Cabinet Office Security of the few international organisations allowed to observe Policy Framework. FCO staff are required to adhere to the elections. We provided early financial and public the relevant standard of operating procedures (SOPs) support to the Carter Centre monitoring mission. This for the ICT equipment they have been authorised to helped encourage other countries to contribute the finances use, including mobility devices. Staff are trained in all the centre needed to observe the elections. We are aspects of data handling and security in a variety of supporting the Thomson Reuters Foundation and BBC ways including: annual completion of mandatory World Service Trust to facilitate impartial electoral ‘protecting information’training; induction courses; regular coverage, working with both independent and state briefing and other training events; articles on departmental media. We are also working to provide peer support to intranet sites; and ad hoc reminders as and when considered nascent political parties and parliamentarians, in particular necessary. female candidates. Egypt: Elections Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many UK electoral Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign observers will be present at the forthcoming parliamentary and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he is taking to elections in Egypt. [83689] help ensure a smooth transition to civilian democratic rule following the parliamentary elections in Egypt on 28 November 2011. [83686] Alistair Burt: The UK is committed to supporting the process of political transition in Egypt, including the Alistair Burt: The Supreme Council of the Armed parliamentary elections. The Carter Centre is one of the Forces have committed to a transition to a civilian-led few international civil society organisations allowed to democracy. This transition process is owned by the observe these elections, and we are providing them with Egyptian people and it is not for the UK to dictate who support. The Egyptian authorities have informed our or what should be acceptable to them. However, there ambassador in Cairo that diplomats and foreign media has been sustained high-level UK Government engagement could have limited access to polling stations. Our embassy in support of the democratic transition process in Egypt, in Cairo will take part in witnessing the election process including visits by the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime informally, in line with these conditions. Minister, and the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member Heritage Oil for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague). Our embassy in Cairo is in close contact with Egyptian parties to the transition and is helping to develop initiatives in support Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for of that process under the Arab Partnership. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the answer of 21 November 2011, Official Report, column 47W, on Heritage Oil, whether any civil servants were Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign present when he was approached by a representative of and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he has Heritage Oil in March 2011. [83438] had with his international counterparts on responses to street protests in relation to the forthcoming parliamentary elections in Egypt. [83687] Mr Lidington: No. This was not an official event.

Alistair Burt: The Secretary of State for Foreign and Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), is in regular contact answer of 21 November 2011, Official Report, column with his counterparts, especially those in the MENA 47W, on Heritage Oil, what representations he received region, about Egypt. He will discuss the situation in from Heritage Oil after he was approached by a Egypt with his EU counterparts at the Foreign Affairs representative of Heritage Oil in March 2011. [83439] Council in Brussels on 30 November to 1 December. The Foreign Secretary made statements on 23 and 27 Mr Lidington [holding answer 29 November 2011]: November in which he has set out the Government’s The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth views on the situation in Egypt, including deep concern Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond about the unacceptable violence and loss of life which (Yorks) (Mr Hague), received one letter from Mr Christian has taken place in Tahrir square and other parts of Sweeting, Director of London and Central European Egypt, and the UK’s consistent call for a rapid, clear Investments. 1109W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1110W

Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for On 22 November a UK, German and French resolution Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the at the UN General Assembly Third Committee on the answer of 21 November 2011, Official Report, human rights situation in Syria, and co-sponsored by column 47W, on Heritage Oil, who approached him to 62 countries, was passed with 122 votes in favour. The make representations on behalf of Heritage Oil in resolution called on the Syrian Government to end March 2011. [83440] violence and implement the Arab League’s plan of action without delay. On 29 November the UN Human Mr Lidington [holding answer 29 November 2011]: Rights Council agreed to hold a Special Session on the The information is as follows: human rights situation in Syria on 2 December. Mr Christian Sweeting, Director of London and Central European We continue to discuss further action at the UN, Investments Ltd. including a Security Council resolution, with key international partners, particularly those in the region. Members: Correspondence USA: Rendition Mike Crockart: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he plans to Mr Tyrie: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign reply to the hon. Member for Edinburgh West’s letters and Commonwealth Affairs if he will publish a list of of 20 May 2011, 11 July 2011, 4 August 2011, 29 August all flights with a detainee on board that landed on 2011 and 13 September 2011 concerning a constituent, Diego Garcia in March 2004; for which such flights the James Rieley. [83839] US administration sought permission from the UK to land on Diego Garcia; and if he will make a statement. Mr Lidington: I am sorry for the delay in the hon. [83446] Member receiving a reply. The letter was transferred to the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills Mr Lidington: No flights with a detainee on board who have assured me that it is being treated as a landed on Diego Garcia in March 2004. priority. Aside from the two cases of rendition through Diego Garcia (British Indian Ocean Territories) in 2002, the Syria: Loans US Government has confirmed that there have been no other instances in which US intelligence flights landed in the UK, our Overseas Territories, or the Crown Stephen Phillips: To ask the Secretary of State for Dependencies, with a detainee, on board since 11 September Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps his 2001. Department is taking to press for the prohibition of further disbursements of European Investment Bank Mr Tyrie: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign loans to Syria. [83681] and Commonwealth Affairs how many flights by US intelligence services with a detainee on board have Alistair Burt: The UK Government were at the forefront landed in (a) the UK, (b) British Overseas Territories of action approved by the EU Foreign Affairs Committee and (c) Crown dependencies since 11 September 2001; on 14 November 2011 to stop further disbursements of and if he will make a statement. [83447] European Investment Bank loans to Syria. This is just one of a series of EU measures against the Syria regime Mr Lidington: There have been two cases, in January aimed at stopping the violence. In nine rounds of sanctions and September 2002, in which flights carrying a detainee the EU has subjected a total of 74 individuals and 19 had landed and refuelled on Diego Garcia in the British entities to asset freezes and travel bans targeted against Indian Ocean Territories. The UK was informed of those supporting or benefitting from the regime and these flights by the US in February 2008, following those associated with them. We are already working on which the then Foreign Secretary the right hon. Member further wide ranging measures for the December Foreign for South Shields (David Miliband), made a statement Affairs Council. to Parliament. The US informed us that these flights refuelled briefly on Diego Garcia and that the detainees Syria: Politics and Government did not leave the plane. Aside from the two cases of rendition through Diego Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Garcia in 2002, the US Government has confirmed that Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent steps there have been no other instances in which US intelligence he has taken to secure international agreement on the flights landed in the UK, our Overseas Territories, or draft UN Security Council Resolution on Syria. the Crown Dependencies, with a detainee on board [84011] since 11 September 2001.

Alistair Burt: The UK Government have been at the Mr Tyrie: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign forefront of action on Syria in the UN. On 4 October and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions the UK, together with France, Germany and Portugal (a) he and (b) his officials have had with their US tabled a draft resolution at the UN Security Council counterparts on use of airports in the UK, British condemning the Syrian regime’s use of force, calling for Overseas Territories and Crown dependencies by an end to violence, and threatening sanctions if the flights by US intelligence services with a detainee on situation continued. It was vetoed by Russia and China, board since 11 September 2001, other than two cases a decision that has been confirmed as misguided by relating to Diego Garcia in 2002; and if he will make a everything that has happened in Syria subsequently. statement. [83448] 1111W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1112W

Mr Lidington: My officials hold regular talks with the Number US Government on issues relating to relevant British Overseas Territories. The most recent talks were held in The Pensions Ombudsman and Pension Protection Fund 6 Washington in September 2011. During these talks the Ombudsman US confirmed that there have been no other instances in The Pensions Advisory Service 2 which US intelligence flights landed in the UK, our Overseas Territories, or the Crown Dependencies, with Disability Living Allowance a detainee on board since 11 September 2001. Jessica Morden: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Tyrie: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Work and Pensions when he proposes that the disability and Commonwealth Affairs whether (a) he and (b) living allowance will be replaced by personal independence Ministers in his Department have authorised the payments for children. [84301] involvement of the Secret Intelligence Service in a rendition operation since May 2010; if so on how many Maria Miller: Personal independence payment will occasions such authorisation has been given; and if he not apply to new or existing claims for children when it will make a statement. [83449] is introduced in 2013. We are clear that before we apply personal independence payment to children, we will Mr Lidington [holding answer 29 November 2011]: It develop a specific assessment to ensure that the needs of is the policy of successive HM Governments not to children with long-term health conditions or impairments comment on security and intelligence matters. are properly considered. We will build on the experience The Government policy on rendition is absolutely of developing and implementing the assessment for clear: we do not render people in breach of our legal claimants of working age to inform our decisions about obligations. Should another state wish to transfer an the future arrangements for children. We will also want individual through our territory or airspace, we would to take full account of the Department of Education’s consider all the circumstances and only grant permission work on special educational needs and disability including if we were satisfied that it would accord with our proposals for a single assessment and to design support domestic law and international obligations. around disabled children’s aspirations. We unreservedly condemn any practice of “extraordinary We have made clear that we will consult before taking rendition” to torture. We will not co-operate in any any decisions on extending personal independence payment transfer of an individual where we believe there is a real to children. risk of torture to the individual concerned. The Employment and Support Allowance Government’s clear policy is not to participate in, solicit, encourage or condone the use of torture or inhuman or degrading treatment for any purpose. The coalition Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for agreement made absolutely clear that “we will never Work and Pensions if he will estimate the cost of condone the use of torture”. reassessing those on contributory employment and support allowance in the Work Related Activity Group as they come to the end of the 12 month time-limit to determine if they qualify for the Support Group. WORK AND PENSIONS [82623] Departmental Audit Chris Grayling: The impacts of the proposal to time limit contributory employment and support allowance Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Work (ESA) to one year for those in the Work Related Activity and Pensions how many internal audits have taken Group are set out in the impact assessment found at the place (a) in his Department and (b) in the non- following link: departmental bodies for which his Department is http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/esa-time-limit-wr2011-ia-revised- responsible in the last 12 months; and if he will make a apr2011.pdf statement. [82534] The status of a claimant’s ESA claim will not change as a result of the application of a 12-month time limit. Chris Grayling: Within the Department and its executive Therefore, no estimates of the cost of reassessing those and tribunal non-departmental public bodies, the number on contributory ESA in the Work Related Activity of reports issued by their internal audit service, excluding Group as they come to the end of the 12-month time ad hoc advisory work, in the 12-month period ended 31 limit have been undertaken. October 2011 was: Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Number Work and Pensions whether he has made an estimate of how many people subject to a time limit in the Work-Related Department for Work and Pensions (including Jobcentre 185 Plus and the Pension, Disability and Carers Service) Activity Group of contributory employment and support Health and Safety Executive (including Health and Safety 31 allowance will have a long-term degenerative condition. Laboratory) [82984] Remploy Ltd 29 National Employment Savings Trust Corporation 14 Chris Grayling: The impacts of the proposal to time Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission 13 limit contributory employment and support allowance The Pensions Regulator 8 (ESA) to one year for those in the Work Related Activity Independent Living Fund 7 Group are set out in the impact assessment found at the following link: 1113W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1114W

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/esa-time-limit-wr2011-ia-revised- accounted for by (a) housing benefit and (b) council apr2011.pdf tax benefit in (i) each region of England, (ii) England, However, estimates of the numbers affected by time (iii) Scotland, (iv) Wales and (v) Northern Ireland; limiting have been modelled at a national level and [83224] cannot be reliably broken down for particular groups. (2) what proportion of income received by In addition, the term degenerative condition is a households affected by the household benefit cap with general one which may apply to any condition that (a) one child, (b) two children, (c) three children and leads to gradual deterioration. This can encompass a (d) four children or more in (i) each English region, wide variety of conditions as diverse as neurological, (ii) England, (iii) Scotland, (iv) Wales and (v) Northern cardiovascular, musculoskeletal conditions and cancer. Ireland is accounted for by (A) housing benefit and Therefore we are unable to give an indication of how (B) council tax benefit. [83226] many people with degenerative conditions may be affected by the time limit. Chris Grayling: The information requested is not available as sample sizes are too small to yield reliable Andrew George: To ask the Secretary of State for results for areas smaller than the overall impacts for Work and Pensions what recent estimate he has made Great Britain. of the (a) mean and (b) median duration that a person in receipt of contributory employment and Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and support allowance spends in the work-related activity Pensions what proportion of income received by group. [83391] households in each band of housing tenure affected by the household benefit cap is accounted for by (a) Chris Grayling: The information is as follows: housing benefit and (b) council tax benefit. [83225] Contributions based employment support allowance claimants in the work related activity group, by mean and median durations —May 2011 Chris Grayling: The information requested is not available as sample sizes are too small to yield reliable Weeks results for different categories of tenure type. Mean 73 Median 72 Jobseeker’s Allowance: Young People

Durations by band Number of claimants Mr Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and All durations 102,010 Pensions what proportion of 18 to 24 year olds starting Up to three months 1,130 an apprenticeship claimed jobseeker’s allowance in the Three months up to six months 6,780 month prior to commencing their apprenticeship in Six months up to one year 24,130 England in the latest year for which figures are One year and up to two years 47,210 available. [83834] Two years and up to five years 22,760 Notes: Chris Grayling: The information requested is not 1. Caseloads are rounded to the nearest 10. Mean and medians are available. rounded to the nearest week. 2. Employment and support allowance (ESA) replaced incapacity Claimants leaving jobseeker’s allowance are not required benefit and income support paid on the grounds of incapacity for new to inform the Department of their destinations and claims from 27 October 2008. hence the information that is collected is incomplete. 3. Phase of ESA claim/The phase is derived from payment details held on the source system. DWP analysts have been investigating the scope for 4. Payment type/group is derived from payment details held on the producing regular statistics on benefit destinations, as source system. Figures will include a small number of claimants well as improving consistency of use of this data across entitled to both the contributory and income. the analytical community. The destinations statistics Source: have not been used in the public domain before, mainly DWP Information Directorate: Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study 100% based categories. because of gaps in coverage and so are considered not robust enough for external use. Employment Schemes Members: Correspondence Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many times sanctions have been recommended by providers of work programmes in the Mike Crockart: To ask the Secretary of State for last year; and how many times sanctions have been Work and Pensions when he plans to reply to the hon. imposed on claimants in the last year. [82611] Member for Edinburgh West’s letters of 24 August 2011 and 4 October 2011 concerning a constituent, Chris Grayling: Data on Work programme sanctions Sarah Culbertson. [83840] are not currently available but will be released in spring 2012, alongside other Work programme statistics. Chris Grayling: Jobcentre Plus replied to the hon. Member on behalf of the Secretary of State for Work Housing Benefit and Pensions, my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr Duncan Smith), Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and on 6 September 2011. I apologise that no action was Pensions (1) what proportion of income received by taken to clarify this when the hon. Member wrote again households affected by the household benefit cap is in October. 1115W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1116W

Poverty Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many couples receiving income Stephen Mosley: To ask the Secretary of State for replacement benefits with one member of working age Work and Pensions how many people living in poverty and one eligible for Pension Credit have an entitlement were (a) under the age of 16, (b) between the ages of which includes the carer premium or addition; and what 16 and 30, (c) between the ages of 31 and 60 and (d) proportion of all such couples this represents. [84437] over the age of 60 in the latest period for which figures are available. [83275] Chris Grayling: The information available is set out in the following table. Chris Grayling: Estimates of the number and proportion Couples in receipt of income related benefits as at May 2011 where of individuals living in poverty are published in the one member is under and the other age 60 or over Households Below Average Income (HBAI) series. HBAI Percentage of uses household income adjusted (or ’equivalised’) for Total couples couples in household size and composition, to provide a proxy for in receipt of receipt with standard of living. carer carer Total couples premium premium Statistics covering 2009-10 are the most recent available. The following table shows the number of individuals, Jobseeker’s 2,900 1100 12.8 allowance (income by age band, living in households with less than 60% of based) contemporary median equivalised disposable household Income support 5,900 900 15.2 income, before and after housing costs. Pension credit 92,000 25,300 27.5 Table 1: Number of individuals living in poverty by age band, before 1 Figures of less than 500 (and the resulting %) are based on very few and after housing costs, United Kingdom, 2009-10 sample cases and should be used as a guide only. Number of individuals (million) Notes: Before After housing 1. Caseload figures are rounded to the nearest hundred, percentages Age group housing costs costs Population to one decimal place. 2. The figures assume that pension credit is available when one Under the age of 2.2 3.3 11.4 partner reaches age 60. However, the qualifying age for pension credit 16 is increasing in line with the increase in women’s state pension age. At February 2011 the qualifying age for pension credit was between 60 Between the ages 2.2 3.3 12.3 and four months and 60 and five months. Current data do not allow of 16 and 30 analysis that takes account of the increase in qualifying age. Between the ages 3.6 4.8 24.3 3. Jobseeker’s allowance is payable until state pension age. Income of 31 and 60 support is payable until a person reaches the pension credit qualifying Over the age of 2.4 2.0 12.6 age. 60 4. Data are not available for partners of employment and support Notes: allowance or incapacity benefit claimants. 1. These statistics are based on Households Below Average Income 5. The best statistics on benefits are now derived from 100% data (HBAI) data sourced from the Family Resources Survey (FRS). This sources. However the 5% sample data still provide some detail not yet uses disposable household income, adjusted using modified OECD available from the 100% data sources. The proportions from the 5% equivalisation factors for household size and composition, as an sample data have been used and applied to the overall 100% total for income measure as a proxy for standard of living. the benefit to determine the total number of couples. 2. Net disposable incomes have been used to answer the question. 6. Figures are not available for couples who may be entitled to this This includes earnings from employment and self-employment, state support, but do not claim it. support, income from occupational and: private pensions, investment Source: income and other sources. Income tax, payments, national insurance Information, Governance and Security Directorate, 5% samples, Work contributions, council tax/domestic rates and some other payments and Pensions Longitudinal Study are deducted from incomes. 3. Figures have been presented on a before housing costs and an after housing costs basis. For before housing costs, housing costs are not Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for deducted from income, while for after housing costs they are. Work and Pensions what the average weekly loss of 4. All estimates are based on survey data and are therefore subject to a income would be for couples currently receiving income degree of uncertainty. Small differences should be treated with caution replacement benefits, with one member of working age as these will be affected by sampling error and variability in non-response. and one eligible for pension credit, under proposals 5. The reference period for HBAI figures is the financial year. 6. Numbers of individuals have been rounded to the nearest 100,000. introduced by schedule 2, paragraph 64 of the Welfare 7. Poverty has been defined as: Reform Bill. [84438] Relative low income: households with equivalised household incomes below 60% of contemporary median household income, before or after housing costs. Chris Grayling: The Government believe that all people Source: of working age who can work should be expected to do Households Below Average Income (HBAI) 2009-10 so and that it is not right to continue the current position where pension credit can go to households Social Security Benefits which contain a person of working age without that person having to meet any work-related requirements. Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for The universal credit approach provides financial support Work and Pensions how many claimants have ceased to such couples, whilst giving the working-age member receiving benefit as a result of information supplied to of the couple access to support in finding work. his Department by the general public in the latest We have already acknowledged that it will be important period for which figures are available. [84302] not to undermine the stability and outcomes for existing pension credit customers, so the change will not apply Chris Grayling: The information requested is not to couples already in receipt of pension credit. As a available. result, there will be no loss for any couples who are 1117W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1118W already currently receiving income replacement benefits Work Programme where one member is of working age and one is eligible for pension credit as a result of proposals introduced by Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for schedule 2, paragraph 64 of the Welfare Reform Bill. Work and Pensions whether he has made a risk assessment of the failure or withdrawal of a Work programme prime provider; and if he will place a copy of the Unemployment: Young People outcomes of any such assessment in the Library. [84439]

Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Chris Grayling: All providers were required to and Pensions what assessment he has made of the demonstrate that they had the capacity to deliver the likely level of youth unemployment in each of the next Work programme at the bidding stage. In addition, there are various mechanisms in place enabling the five years. [84072] Department to be forewarned about the potential failure or withdrawal of providers, allowing the Department to Chris Grayling: The latest forecast from the independent put contingency arrangements in place before service Office for Budget Responsibility, published on 29 November delivery is affected. Individual provider assessments 2011, is for unemployment to rise from its current 8.3% include commercially sensitive information that the of the labour force to 8.7% in the final quarter of 2012. Department cannot publish. It is then forecast to fall to 8.4% in the final quarter of 2013, 7.8% in the same period in 2014, 6.8% in 2015 and Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for 5.9% in 2016. There is no separate forecast for youth Work and Pensions if he will consider the merits of unemployment but this would be expected to follow a making the new enterprise allowance available to broadly similar trend. The Government are investing in people on the Work programme. [84440] policies to support young people to remain active in their job search and help them to engage in real work Chris Grayling: The new enterprise allowance is available with employers. This includes a new Youth Contract to claimants from six months into their benefit claim worth nearly £1 billion. The contract will provide more and is specifically focused on individuals who wish to intensive support for all 18 to 24-year-olds and builds start their own business. on that already available through Jobcentre Plus and There are no plans to make the new enterprise allowance the Work programme. available to people on the Work programme. We believe that Work programme providers are best placed to design back to work support and so have allowed them Work Capability Assessment the freedom to do what they believe is best for the individual, which can include helping participants to set Sheila Gilmore: To ask the Secretary of State for up in business. Work and Pensions if he will publish the recommendations on refining the mental, intellectual and cognitive descriptors Heidi Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for used in the work capability assessment as submitted to Work and Pensions whether Work programme prime his Department by the independent reviewer Professor contractors are required to set aside funds to work with Malcolm Harrington in April 2011. [84289] community and voluntary sector sub-contractors. [84441]

Chris Grayling: As my reply to the hon. Member of Chris Grayling: The Department for Work and Pensions 28 November 2011, Official Report, column 765W set does not specify the commercial arrangements between out, the Department currently have no plans to formally Work programme prime providers and their subcontractors, publish the report submitted to the Department regarding other than to require that prime providers follow the the mental, intellectual and cognitive descriptors but I Merlin Standard which promotes fair treatment and have placed a copy of the report in the House Library excellence in supply chain management. for Members. We are working with Professor Harrington and the charities that produced the report to review the questionnaire completed by claimants (the ESA50) and to consider building the evidence base around the current BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS and proposed descriptors. Business: Regulation Jessica Morden: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what the current average waiting Steve Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, time is for a work capability assessment in Wales. Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking to reduce [84309] the level of administrative demands placed by Government on small businesses. [80404]

Chris Grayling: The average actual clearance time Mr Prisk: As part of our wider commitment to free (AACT) for a work capability assessment (WCA) in up businesses by cutting red tape, we have announced a Wales at the end of October 2011 is 67.3 days moratorium on new domestic regulation for micro- This is the average time from receipt of the referral businesses and start-ups until April 2014. We are also from the Department to Atos Healthcare through to looking at how we can reduce the existing regulatory the medical assessment report being completed and burden by inviting everyone, including small and medium returned to the Department. enterprises (SMEs), to identify unnecessarily burdensome 1119W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1120W regulation through the Red Tape Challenge. In addition, 1 Applicants applying to enter courses starting in autumn 2011, we are consulting on proposals to give more SMEs and including those who applied for deferred entry in 2012. 2 Applicants applying to enter courses starting in autumn 2012, subsidiary companies the ability to make a commercial including those who applied for deferred entry in 2013. decision about whether or not to have an audit—which we estimate would save them around £200 million; and On time applicants to courses with a 15 October deadline1 by through our proposed programme of reviews of regulatory parliamentary constituency/region bodies, we will seek to ensure that arrangements for Application cycle enforcing legal requirements demands are proportionate Area of domicile 2010-112 2011-123 for the business, fit for purpose and appropriately risk-based. Nottingham East 45 41 constituency Debts Nottingham City 184 165 Nottinghamshire (excl 333 375 Ian Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for Nottingham City) Business, Innovation and Skills (1) whether he has any The East Midlands 2,289 2,245 plans to bring forward proposals to amend part 5 of 1 These are courses in medicine, dentistry and veterinary science, and courses at Oxbridge. the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 prior 2 Applicants applying to enter courses starting in autumn 2011, to implementation; [82527] including those who applied for deferred entry in 2012. (2) what plans he has to give effect to part 5 of the 3 Applicants applying to enter courses starting in autumn 2012, including those who applied for deferred entry in 2013. Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007. [82528] Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Davey: Chapter 3 of part 5 of the Tribunals, Business, Innovation and Skills how many UCAS Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 (debt relief orders) applications had been submitted by residents of (a) was implemented in England and Wales on 6 April Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland constituency, 2009. We launched a Call for Evidence on personal (b) the Borough of Middlesbrough, (c) the Borough of insolvency and consumer credit in October 2010, and in Redcar and Cleveland, (d) the Tees Valley and (e) the the light of the response, we are now taking forward North East in the 2011-12 admissions cycle by 21 various initiatives on debt management. We will be November 2011; and how many such applications had considering whether to amend or implement the remaining been submitted on the same date in the 2010-11 admissions provisions in part 5 of the Act in due course in the light cycle. [84160] of developments in this area. Mr Willetts: The latest information is in the following Higher Education: Admissions tables and has been provided by the Universities and Colleges Admission Service (UCAS). Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for UCAS have stated that year-on-year changes for all Business, Innovation and Skills how many UCAS courses at this early stage in the cycle are often different applications have been submitted by residents of (a) from the position later in the cycle, and that it is too Nottingham East constituency, (b) Nottingham City, early in the cycle to extrapolate applicant volumes forward. (c) Nottinghamshire (excluding Nottingham City) and The second table includes only those applicants who (d) the East Midlands in the 2011-12 admissions cycle applied to courses with a deadline of October 15. The to date; and how many such applications had been main deadline for the majority of UCAS courses is submitted on the same date in the 2010-11 admissions January 15. cycle. [83744] All applicants to UCAS as at November 21 by parliamentary constituency/region Mr Willetts [holding answer 29 November 2011]: The Application cycle latest information is in the tables and has been provided 1 2 by the Universities and Colleges Admission Service Area of domicile 2010-11 2011-12 (UCAS). Middlesbrough south and 268 207 UCAS have stated that year-on-year changes for all east Cleveland constituency courses at this early stage in the cycle are often different The borough of 180 120 from the position later in the cycle, and that it is too Middlesbrough early in the cycle to extrapolate applicant volumes forward. The borough of Redcar and 228 197 Cleveland The second table includes only those applicants who applied to courses with a deadline of 15 October. The The Tees Valley 1,792 1,292 main deadline for the majority of UCAS courses is The North East 5,392 4,237 1 15 January. Applicants applying to enter courses starting in autumn 2011, including those who applied for deferred entry in 2012. All applicants to UCAS as at 21 November by parliamentary 2 Applicants applying to enter courses starting in autumn 2012, constituency/region including those who applied for deferred entry in 2013. Application cycle On time applicants to courses with an October 15 deadline1 by Area of domicile 2010-111 2011-122 parliamentary constituency/region Application cycle Nottingham East 179 169 2 3 constituency Area of domicile 2010-11 2011-12 Nottingham City 801 718 Middlesbrough South and 35 33 Nottinghamshire (excl 1,620 1,281 East Cleveland constituency Nottingham City) The borough of 23 18 The East Midlands 11,619 9,288 Middlesbrough 1121W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1122W

On time applicants to courses with an October 15 deadline1 by Apprenticeship starts in the education and training sector subject area, parliamentary constituency/region 2007/08 to 2009/10 Application cycle 2007/08 2008/09 2009/10 Area of domicile 2010-112 2011-123 Apprenticeship starts 1,160 860 4,000 The borough of Redcar and 21 23 Notes: Cleveland All figures are rounded to the nearest 10. The Tees Valley 254 227 Source: Individualised Learner Record The North East 1,131 1,073 Information on the number of apprenticeship starts 1 These are courses in medicine, dentistry and veterinary science, and courses at Oxbridge. is published in a quarterly Statistical First Release 2 Applicants applying to enter courses starting in autumn 2011, (SFR). The latest SFR was published on 27 October 2011: including those who applied for deferred entry in 2012. http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/ 3 Applicants applying to enter courses starting in autumn 2012, statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_current including those who applied for deferred entry in 2013. Information on the number of apprentices who have In my answer to the hon. Member’s parliamentary progressed to university-level studies is available from question (77543) tabled on 31 October and answered on Apprentice Progression Tracking Research. 7 November 2011, Official Report, column 109W, the For the 2005/06 cohort of Level 3 apprentices, new figures for the Tees Valley did not include applicants data show 13% progressed to higher education or Level 4 from Middlesbrough south and east Cleveland constituency. by 2008/09, This includes higher education in further The figures for the Tees Valley should have been 484 education institutions and Level 4 in higher education in 2010-11 and 390 in 2011-12 (not 410 and 322 and further education. Updated findings will be available respectively). in April 2012. Source: Apprentice Progression Tracking Research Project Report: Higher Education: Apprentices Longitudinal Tracking of Advanced Level Apprentice Cohorts Progressing into Higher Education 2005/06 to 2009/10 by Sharon Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Smith and Hugh Joslin, July 2011 Business, Innovation and Skills how many apprentices Third Sector have been taken on by universities in the last three years for which information is available. [83172] Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what funding over £100,000 his Mr Hayes [holding answer 25 November 2011]: Department’s Knowledge and Innovation Directorate Information on the number of apprentices that have allocated to (a) voluntary sector, (b) charities and (c) been taken on by universities as staff members is not other third sector organisations in (i) 2010-11 and (ii) available. 2011-12; and if he will make a statement. [82952] Information on employment in the broader education Mr Willetts [holding answer 25 November 2011]: sector is provided in the following table which shows the Assistance to the Russian Federation has been provided total number of apprenticeship programme starts in the through the European Space Agency (ESA) using education and training sector subject area in 2007/08, capabilities partially supported by the UK as a member 2008/09 and 2009/10, the latest year for which final data of ESA. The Department for Business Innovation and are available. Skills has not offered help directly.

ORAL ANSWERS

Thursday 1 December 2011

Col. No. Col. No. ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE...... 1063 ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE—continued Domestic Energy Bills...... 1068 Feed-in Tariffs (Stoke-on-Trent)...... 1067 Domestic Energy Costs...... 1066 Green Deal...... 1072 Durban Climate Change Conference ...... 1072 Green Economy ...... 1076 Energy Credit...... 1077 Green Investment Bank ...... 1063 Energy Infrastructure...... 1074 Renewable Heat Incentive ...... 1071 Energy Prices ...... 1064 Shale Gas...... 1076 Feed-in Tariffs (Consultation)...... 1069 Topical Questions ...... 1078 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Thursday 1 December 2011

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 65WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 73WS Further Education Reforms: Building a Protocol Providing for Additional Members of the World Class System ...... 65WS European Parliament ...... 73WS Pre-Council Written Ministerial Statement: EU Competitiveness Council...... 66WS JUSTICE...... 74WS COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 67WS Legal Aid Reform (Competitive Tendering)...... 74WS New Homes Bonus...... 67WS EDUCATION...... 68WS PRIME MINISTER ...... 75WS School Admissions and School Admission Libya Crisis...... 75WS Appeals Codes ...... 68WS ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 69WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 76WS Nuclear Energy (Governmental Responses)...... 69WS Child Support Maintenance Calculation The Carbon Plan...... 71WS Regulations 2012...... 76WS EEA Opt-in Decision...... 76WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Mobility Component in Residential Care ...... 77WS AFFAIRS...... 72WS UK Disability Strategy...... 78WS Live Animal Exports (Clarification of Minister’s Welfare Reform Bill (Conditionality and Comments) ...... 72WS Sanctions Contingency Fund Advance) ...... 78WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Thursday 1 December 2011

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 1033W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— Babar Ahmad ...... 1033W continued Departmental Design...... 1024W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 1118W G4S...... 1025W Business: Regulation ...... 1118W Housing ...... 1025W Debts ...... 1119W Housing Revenue Accounts ...... 1026W Higher Education: Admissions ...... 1119W Housing Revenue Accounts: Southwark ...... 1026W Higher Education: Apprentices...... 1121W Local Government Finance ...... 1027W Third Sector...... 1122W Local Government: Procurement ...... 1029W Non-Domestic Rates...... 1029W CABINET OFFICE...... 1046W Planning Permission ...... 1029W Departmental Audit...... 1046W Rented Housing: Southwark ...... 1030W Departmental Eggs ...... 1047W Social Rented Housing...... 1030W Departmental Food...... 1047W Travellers: Community Relations ...... 1030W Employment Schemes ...... 1048W Government Departments: Procurement ...... 1048W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 1031W Personal Income: Liverpool ...... 1049W Arts: Voluntary Work ...... 1031W Public Bodies ...... 1049W Coroner For Treasure...... 1031W Serco ...... 1049W Sports: Facilities...... 1032W Telephones: Unsolicited Goods and Services ...... 1032W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT . 1024W Affordable Housing: Preston...... 1024W DEFENCE...... 1054W Council Tax Benefits...... 1024W Adam Werritty...... 1054W Col. No. Col. No. DEFENCE—continued ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE—continued Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations ...... 1055W Electricity: Meters...... 1034W Air Force: Military Bases ...... 1055W Energy: Billing ...... 1035W AWE Aldermaston: Planning Permission ...... 1056W Energy: Housing ...... 1035W Conflict Prevention ...... 1056W Energy: Meters...... 1036W Defence: Procurement...... 1057W Energy Supply: Planning Permission...... 1035W Departmental Publications ...... 1057W Fuel Poverty...... 1036W Departmental Written Questions ...... 1058W Fuels: Prices...... 1035W Ex-servicemen...... 1057W Green Deal...... 1033W Germany: Military Bases ...... 1059W Green Deal Scheme...... 1037W Jon Moulton ...... 1059W Heating Oil ...... 1037W Libya: Armed Conflict...... 1059W Nuclear Power Stations...... 1038W Military Aircraft ...... 1060W Planning Permission ...... 1038W Navy: Standards...... 1060W Post Codes ...... 1038W Rescue Services ...... 1061W Renewable Energy: Feed-in Tariffs...... 1038W Submarines ...... 1061W Solar Power...... 1039W Submarines: Decommissioning ...... 1061W Solar Power: Feed-in Tariffs...... 1040W Submarines: Training...... 1061W Wind Power ...... 1041W Trident ...... 1062W Unmanned Air Vehicles ...... 1062W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL War Memorials: Theft...... 1062W AFFAIRS...... 1050W Animal Welfare: Cattle...... 1050W EDUCATION...... 1074W Animal Welfare: Circuses...... 1050W Academies: Primary Education...... 1074W Biodiversity...... 1051W Academies: School Meals ...... 1074W Common Agricultural Policy ...... 1051W Capital Grant...... 1075W Dangerous Dogs ...... 1052W Children: Disability...... 1075W Departmental Eggs ...... 1052W Children in Care...... 1075W Farmers: Supermarkets ...... 1052W Children’s Centres...... 1076W Food ...... 1053W Class Sizes...... 1077W Greenhouse Gas Emissions: Business...... 1054W Classroom Assistants: Greater London...... 1077W National Parks: Public Consultation...... 1054W Departmental Audit...... 1078W Timber ...... 1054W Departmental Design...... 1078W Departmental Grants...... 1078W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 1106W Departmental Telephone Services ...... 1079W Departmental Food...... 1106W Education: Disadvantaged ...... 1080W Departmental Publications ...... 1106W Education: Finance...... 1081W Departmental Training ...... 1107W Education: Pay Systems ...... 1081W Egypt: Elections...... 1107W Employment: Young People...... 1081W Heritage Oil ...... 1108W English Baccalaureate ...... 1082W Members: Correspondence ...... 1109W Further Education: Finance...... 1082W Syria: Loans...... 1109W Mayors: Powers...... 1083W Syria: Politics and Government...... 1109W Music: Education...... 1083W USA: Rendition ...... 1110W Physics: Teachers...... 1085W Pupils: Assessments...... 1086W HEALTH...... 1100W Pupils: Disadvantaged...... 1086W Cancer: Ethnic Groups ...... 1100W School Leaving: Romford...... 1086W Dementia: Diagnosis...... 1101W Schools ...... 1087W Health: Children ...... 1101W Schools: Admissions ...... 1087W Hepatitis: Health Services ...... 1101W Schools: Bullying ...... 1087W Hospital Beds: Lancashire ...... 1102W Schools: Closures ...... 1088W Hospitals: Food ...... 1102W Schools: Rural Areas...... 1088W Maternity Services: Low Incomes ...... 1103W Secondary Education ...... 1089W Medicine: Wholesale Trade ...... 1104W Secondary Education: Finance...... 1089W Palliative Care: Finance ...... 1105W Sixth Form Education: North East ...... 1090W Respiratory Syncytial Virus: Vaccination ...... 1105W Sixth-form Colleges: Finance...... 1091W Special Educational Needs...... 1091W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 1063W Special Educational Needs: Young People ...... 1092W Adam Werritty...... 1063W Teachers: Finance ...... 1093W Arrest Warrants ...... 1063W Teachers: Pensions ...... 1093W Departmental Civil Proceedings...... 1065W Teachers: Retirement...... 1094W Departmental Eggs ...... 1065W Unemployment: Young People...... 1094W Departmental Food...... 1066W Young People: Disability...... 1095W Departmental Judicial Review...... 1066W Young People: Unemployment...... 1095W Departmental Official Hospitality...... 1066W Youth Services: Per Capita Costs ...... 1096W Deportation: Offenders...... 1066W Detainees: Children...... 1067W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 1033W Equality Act 2010: Legal Opinion...... 1068W Climate Change: International Cooperation ...... 1034W Firearms ...... 1068W Combined Heat and Power: EU Action ...... 1034W Homophobia...... 1068W Domestic Energy Costs...... 1033W Immigrants: Detainees ...... 1068W Durban Climate Change Conference ...... 1033W Immigration...... 1069W Col. No. Col. No. HOME DEPARTMENT—continued PRIME MINISTER ...... 1014W Immigration Controls ...... 1070W Manor Dean Cottage...... 1014W Members: Correspondence ...... 1070W Working Hours: EU Law ...... 1014W National Policing Improvement Agency...... 1070W Police ...... 1071W SCOTLAND...... 1013W Police: Accountability ...... 1072W Departmental Civil Proceedings...... 1013W Police and Crime Commissioners...... 1071W Departmental Eggs ...... 1013W Police: Appeals...... 1072W Departmental Food...... 1013W Police: Firearms ...... 1072W Religiously Aggravated Offences ...... 1072W Rendition ...... 1072W TRANSPORT ...... 1018W Telephones: Nuisance...... 1073W A338: Repairs and Maintenance ...... 1018W Aviation: Scotland...... 1019W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 1015W Cycling...... 1019W Eggs ...... 1015W M27 ...... 1019W Food ...... 1015W Manhole Covers...... 1020W Times of Sittings...... 1016W Railways: Rolling Stock ...... 1020W Road Works ...... 1021W INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY STANDARDS AUTHORITY COMMITTEE ...... 1014W TREASURY ...... 1021W Freedom of Information ...... 1014W Boilers: Government Assistance...... 1021W Capital Allowances ...... 1021W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 1099W Departmental Food...... 1022W European Development Fund...... 1099W Economic and Monetary Union ...... 1022W Kenya: Education...... 1100W Public Sector: Pensions ...... 1022W Taxation: Environment Protection ...... 1023W JUSTICE...... 1042W Taxation: Holiday Accommodation...... 1023W Free Schools: Planning Permission...... 1042W Third Sector...... 1023W HM Prison Birmingham: Pensions...... 1042W Offenders: Foreign Nationals ...... 1042W Prisoners’ Release: Lie Detectors ...... 1043W WALES...... 1013W Prisons: Crimes of Violence ...... 1043W Personal Independence Payment...... 1013W Prisons: Private Sector ...... 1044W Probation ...... 1044W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 1111W Reoffenders: Alternatives to Prosecution ...... 1045W Departmental Audit...... 1111W Suicide: Pendle...... 1045W Disability Living Allowance...... 1112W Youth Custody...... 1046W Employment and Support Allowance ...... 1112W Employment Schemes ...... 1113W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 1016W Housing Benefit ...... 1113W Bill of Rights ...... 1016W Jobseeker’s Allowance: Young People ...... 1114W Departmental Civil Proceedings...... 1017W Members: Correspondence ...... 1114W Departmental Communication ...... 1017W Poverty...... 1115W Departmental Eggs ...... 1017W Social Security Benefits...... 1115W Departmental Food...... 1017W Unemployment: Young People...... 1117W Foreign Relations: Republic of Ireland ...... 1018W Work Capability Assessment...... 1117W Post Codes ...... 1018W Work Programme...... 1118W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. 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CONTENTS

Thursday 1 December 2011

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 1063] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change

Business of the House [Col. 1085] Statement—(Sir George Young)

Backbench Business [Un-allotted day] BBC (Proposed Cuts) [Col. 1101] Motion—(Austin Mitchell)—agreed to Debt Advice and Debt Management [Col. 1149] Motion—(Alex Cunningham)—agreed to

Phenylketonuria (Kuvan) [Col. 1190] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Transport Disruption (Winter 2010) [Col. 337WH] Bus Services [Col. 358WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 65WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 1013W] [see index inside back page]