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Interview Transcript ORAL HISTORY 10 TRANSCRIPT GLYNN S. LUNNEY INTERVIEWED BY CAROL BUTLER HOUSTON, TEXAS – 9 MARCH 2000 BUTLER: Today is March 9, 2000. This oral history with Glynn Lunney is being conducted for the Johnson Space Center Oral History Project, in the offices of the Signal Corporation. Carol Butler is the interviewer and is assisted by Kevin Rusnak and Jason Abbey. Thank you for joining us again. LUNNEY: You're welcome, Carol. It's a pleasure to be here as always. BUTLER: Thank you. Before we've talked up through when you had retired at NASA, and if you tell us now about what you went and did after that. You did stay involved with the space program. LUNNEY: Yes, it may be that I could draw some differences between how it was at NASA and how it was in industry and that might be helpful to somebody or another. BUTLER: Absolutely. LUNNEY: It was interesting when it became time for me to move. It would be easy to go through kind of an intellectual exercise about how I arrived at that decision, but I had the feeling that it was more like so many other things and so many other times in my life, it was a little bit more of an emotional thing, in the sense that I had been doing the Shuttle program manager job for four years by that time, by the time I left, and, frankly, it felt like I was just going to continue to do it indefinitely into the future. There wasn't anything in the way of a 9 March 2000 21-1 Johnson Space Center Oral History Project Glynn S. Lunney prospect to change that. When I look back on my career, I had generally changed jobs, moved on, every three or four years, at least in some significant way changed my responsibilities, usually made them larger. So I guess I found myself with my internal clock going off, saying, "Glynn, it's time to move and to do something different." By that time I had probably gotten a little flatter on the learning curve in terms of the NASA system, because I was doing something that I had been doing for quite a while and I had a lot of experience in it, so it wasn't like there was a great deal of learning going on, although it was still a very challenging job and a great challenging task, but it wasn't like I was learning many new things. I had looked around the rest of the NASA, I mean, mentally, at least, in my mind. I'd been to [NASA] Headquarters [Washington, DC], and I didn't see anything there that I aspired to go do, and I didn't see anything at the other [NASA] Centers that I especially wanted to do. So it just had the feeling like I had done all that I could do within my career potential within NASA. It didn't look like I was going to get to be the center director here [at Johnson Space Center in Houston, Texas], which is something that I had aspired to, and it didn't work out. So I had the feeling that I was sort of getting to the point where it was, I don't want to say a dead-end, because it was not, but a little bit of a sense of that. So the bell went off, as it had in previous times in my career, kind of inside of my head telling me that it was time to do something different. Actually, probably by the time I did quit being the Shuttle program manager, I don't think I realized how tired I was getting in the job. I mean, it's a real wearing kind of a job. I don't know the statistics are, but I expect probably since that time most people don't stay in that job more than four years. Probably four years is a little bit on the high side. I don't recall exactly, but it seems like people change out after a while. And I think it's because it wears people out. I mean, they don't even know it probably at the time, but it does wear them out, because it's kind of on your mind constantly. 9 March 2000 21-2 Johnson Space Center Oral History Project Glynn S. Lunney But it was difficult to come to a decision to change and leave the government, for example. I'd worked for them, of course, since I was a young boy in the co-op [cooperative education program] in college, and I loved it. I mean, I just had every opportunity in the world. So in that respect it was also very emotional in terms of thinking that I was going to leave this, but I was still fairly young, forty-eight or so, and I recognized that I had a lot of career in front of me. I didn't see the learning opportunity so much anymore inside of NASA that I had always experienced before. That probably wasn't correct, but that was just the way I felt about it at the time. So a combination of things like that, mostly internal clock happening, got me to the point where I thought that it would be time to do something different. There were some opportunities at NASA and NASA wanted me to do some things, but they didn't fit me right, at least I didn't feel like they fit at the time. Then I had an opportunity to consider doing something in industry, and I ended up deciding when I left NASA that I would go to work for Rockwell [Aerospace, now Rockwell International Corporation] out in California. At the time I was viewing that as pretty much of a complete break with what I had done in the past. All my past experience had been in human space flight, and I was going to go work at a division at Rockwell that was building unmanned satellites. They were building the GPS, the Global Positioning Navigation Satellites Network that we have up there today. So I was going into a completely new field, relatively new field, it was still space work, but it was unmanned satellites as opposed to the manned stuff. When we left Houston, I left with the idea that we were really leaving and I wasn't going to be back in human space flight in any way. So it was quite a change. There were two things, probably two things that [were] happening to me at the same time. One is, I was making a change from government to industry, and there are differences, most of which I had to learn, some the hard way, some were obvious. I was also moving from jobs that I had always had that were basically very tied into the program, program 9 March 2000 21-3 Johnson Space Center Oral History Project Glynn S. Lunney management kind of jobs, which are a little different than—the program manager job here at the center is a different job than the center director. The center director job is a little bit more like a general manager or president of a company, like a satellite company or any other kind of company, satellite-building company. So I was making two transitions, one from government to industry, and one from program management to more general management of a business unit, which is the way Rockwell talked about things. So I probably didn't realize at the time how big both of those steps would be, but I was off doing them and learning as I went. I guess I would make kind of a comment at this point, and that is that I have always been somewhat surprised in my career that there is so little preparation for people to take the next step to a bigger job. There's sort of a feeling that you learn by watching and by experience, which is valid. It's valid. I had great leaders in front of me the whole time, especially in the case of Dr. [Christopher C.] Kraft, Chris Kraft, so it was easy for me to see what he did, or at least see the outward signs of what he did and to try to emulate that. But even so, I think especially when you move from government to industry or you move from program management to general management of a business unit, there's a lot of things that you have to think about differently and your whole agenda starts taking on a different flavor. Within Rockwell I didn't see any way in which they really trained people to make that step. In my case I was the Executive…VP, which is like a deputy to the president for about six months when he retired, and then I got that job. So I had six months of sort of on-the-job training, and maybe they viewed that as sufficient. I always felt, though, that there [were] steps that I took that I could have profited from some more, I don't mean formal training, but some more description of what are the expectations that people would have of me in a new job, and what are the difficulties or the problem areas that people see, what are the things to watch out for and so on. Sort of like a discussion, perhaps, that an experienced uncle might give you when you're moving into a 9 March 2000 21-4 Johnson Space Center Oral History Project Glynn S.
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