REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF TYNWALD COURT

Douglas, Tuesday, March 15, 1960

Present: The Governor, Sir Ronald Whitley Council for the Garvey, K.C.M.G., K.C.V.O., M.B.E.). In Public Service. (Government Circular the Council: The Lord Bishop (Rt. Rev. No. 8/60). Benjamin Pollard, T.D., D.D., M.Sc.), Establishment of Temporary Officers Deemster S. J. Kneale, 0.B.E., Deemster (Assimilation Provisions). Govern- B. W. Macpherson, Sir Ralph Stevenson, ment Circular No. 13/60.) G.C.M.G., Messrs J. F. Crellin, 0.B.E.. Isle of Man Government Service— G. H Moore, J. H. Nicholls and Revised Scale of salary and annual E.B.C. Farrant, M.B.E., with Mr E. R. leave — Harbour Master, . St. A. Davies, M.B.E., Government (Government Circular No. 14/60.) Secretary and Clerk to the Council. In the Keys: The Speaker (Mr H. K. National Health Service (Isle of Man) (Expenses in Attending Hospitals) Corlett, 0.B.E.), Messrs T. F. Corkhill, Regulations, 1960. T. H. Colebourn, E. N. Crowe, J. L. Callister, H. H. Radcliffe, H. C. Kerruish, National Health Service (Isle of Man) Lt.-Cdr. J. L. Quine,. Messrs J. C. (Superannuation) (Amendment) Nivison, W. E. Quayle, H. S. Cain, A. H. Regulations, 1960. (Government Cir- Simcocks, C. C. McFee, T. A. Coole, cular No. 12/60.) G. C. Gale, A. S. Kelly, A. Cecil Teare, Report of the Medical Officer of Health J. Edward Callister, T. A. Corkish, R. C. for the year 1958. Stephen, J. M. Cain, 0.B.E., W. B. Annual Report and Statement of Kaneen, E. C. Irving and J. B. Bolton, Accounts of the Isle of Man Assess- with Mr F. B. Johnson, M.A., Secretary ment Board for the year ended 31st to the and Clerk to March, 1959, and the Auditors' Report. Tynwald. Report of the Public Auditors on Local Authorities' Accounts, etc., for the year ended 31st March, 1959, and on PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COURT the Accounts of all Endowments Committees for the year ended 12th The Governor: Well, gentlemen, we May, 1959. will proceed to item 1 on the agenda. I have the honour to lay before the Statement of Accounts of the Isle of Man Board of Agriculture and Fish- Court:— eries for the year ended 31st March, National Assistance (Determination of 1959, together with the Report of the Need) Amendment Regulations, 1960. Public Auditors on the Accounts. Approval, dated 5th February, 1960, to Amended Scheme made by the Isle of the following Petitions:— Man Local Government Board, on the 19th February, 1960. (1) Port St. Mary Commissioners for authority to sell 13 separate plots, part Permanent Unestablished Appointments of the Port St, Mary Estate, situated at (Government Circular No. 1/60. the rear of the Petitioners' houses in

Papers Laid Before the Court, TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960 511

Fistard Road, Port St. Mary, at the price Limited. Considerable publicity has of £40 per plot, for the erection thereon been given to the registration of this of private garages. company in the Press both on the Island (2) Port St. Mary Commissioners for and in the United Kingdom, inspired. (a) approval of an Agreement, dated possibly, by visions of profits accruing 24th October, 1959, for the purchase to shareholders in ventures in the world from Henry Alfred Cooil of a plot of of wireless. I think then that I should land, part of Ballacreggan Estate, abut- make some statement to hon. members ting on the corner of Station Road and of this Court in explanation of what Gansey Road, Port St. Mary, containing has been done. The formation of Radio 474 square yards or thereabouts, for the Manx Limited is a precautionary step sum of £237, for the purpose of the pre- preliminary to any establishment of a servation of amenities; and (b) autho- and Television Station that rity to borrow a sum not exceeding £400, at a rate of interest not exceed- may be possible in the future. The ing £5 per centum per annum, repay- company has been formed as a private able within 40 years, to defray the cost limited company. Its main objects are of the purchase of the said plot, the to carry on business as producers, laying out of the same, and legal ex- directors and distributors of wireless penses in connection therewith. and television programmes and any other form of public or private enter- Motor Scooter Trial Order, 1960 tainment. In addition,. subject to any Hay, Straw and Peat Moss Litter (Im- necessary licence, authority or sanction portation) Order, 1960. being obtained, it may own, rent, operate and conduct or manage television or wireless stations and transmit and relay THE ROYAL BABY— programmes of all kinds therefrom. It ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF is formed also to carry on the business LEGISLATIVES' MESSAGE OF of programme contractors and as pro- CONGRATULATION ducers and distributors of television, The Governor: Gentlemen, before we sound and cinematographic plays and proceed to Bills for signature, I have programmes of all sorts connected with one or two brief announcements to television and wireless or other broad- make. I would first like to read out to casting services or programmes for the you a letter I received in acknowledg- purposes of publicity or advertisement ment of the letter of congratulation and and for the entertainment, education or loyalty sent to Her Majesty on the occa- information of the public. It may also sion of the birth of the Royal baby. It is: apply for, promote or hold any charter, "Home Office, Whitehall, March 8th, 1960.-- Act of Tynwald, Act of Parliament or Sir, I have had the honour to lay before the Provisional Order or monopoly rights, Queen your loyal and dutiful message from privileges, licences, concessions or other the Government and people of the Isle of rights from any State, Government, Pro- Man on the birth of a son to Her Majesty. I have it in command from the Queen to ask vincial or Local Authority to enable the you to convey to them the sincere thanks of company to carry any of its objects into Her Majesty for their congratulations and effect. It may also carry on in the Isle good wishes on this happy occasion.—I am, sir, your obedient servant, R. A. Butler." of Man or elsewhere any other business which may seem to the company con- venient to carry on in connection with the business which the company is RADIO MANX LIMITED— authorised to carry on. These, as I say, STATEMENT BY THE GOVERNOR are some of its objects: that is things The Governor: A good deal of excite- that the company may do. I would ment seems to have been generated by emphasise, however., that the company the recent, formation of Radio Manx would not necessarily use all its powers.

•The Royaf Baby—Acknowledgement of Legislatives' Message of Congratulation, Radio Manx Limited—Statement by the Governor. - - 512 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960

As a private limited company, the num- ROYAL ASSENT TO COMPANIES Der of shareholders is limited and no ACT, 1960, AND CHURCH ACT, 1960 invitation can be made to the public to subscribe for shares, but, if the neces- The Governor: I have the honour to sary permissions were granted for announce to Tynwald in accordance operating television or radio stations in with the terms of section 2 of the Acts the Isle of Man, this company would be of Tynwald (Emergency Promulgation) suitable for operating those stations, Act,. 1916, that the Royal Assent was thus it is premature to discuss the given the following Acts on February extent or allocation of shares in the 8th, 1960: Companies Act, 1960, and company, or as to whether at a later Church Act, 1960. date the company will be converted into a public one All Government has, in fact, done is to be sure that it has first place on the springboard with a view to PERMANENT RESIDENTS— protecting Island interests. If you read QUESTION BY MR COLEBOURN the British national Press you will have seen that others have followed our lead The Governor: We will now proceed in mounting the English springboard. to the questions contained on the Mr Stephen: Are we allowed to com- special question paper. In view of the ment on Your Excellency's statement length of the agenda, I hope that hon on Radio Manx? members will keep strictly as possible to the rules of procedure regarding The Governor: I do not think it would be within the terms of Standing Orders questions and supplementary questions, to do so. making them as precise and as brief as possible and remembering that the object of a question is to obtain infor- mation of a matter of fact. I call on the CIVIL DEFENCE—GOVERNOR TO hon. member for Castletown. TAKE SENIOR OFFICERS' COURSE The Governor: I would also like to Mr Colebourn: I wish to ask the ques- announce that I shall be absent from tion standing in my name: Will Your the Island from Saturday this week to Excellency please state whether any the following week-end, as I am taking positive action has yet been taken to a senior officers' course in Civil Defence attract permanent residents to the Isle at Sunningdale Training College. May of Man from amongst the many people I also seize this opportunity to welcome and families who are retiring on pension the new member for Castletown, Mr T. from the Commonwealth countries? H. Colebourn to his first meeting of Tyn- wald. The Governor: May I reply that the advantages which the Isle of Man offers to persons retiring on pension have been collated in a booklet entitled "Per- BILLS FOR SIGNATURE manent Residence in the Isle of Man," The Governor: We will now proceed prepared by the Isle of Man Tourist to Bills for signature—number two on Board. This booklet has been kept up the agenda. to date and has been distributed throughout the Commonwealth. In The Mental Diseases Bill, the Recrea- November last, copies of the booklet tional Charities (Isle of Man) Bill and were sent to secretaries of Civil Service the Summary Jurisdiction Bill were Associations in Nigeria, Sierra Leone, signed. Kenya, Tanganyika Uganda and Fiji. The Governor: The Bills have now The Tourist Board has allocated from been signed. its vote during the past three years

Civil Defence—Governor to Take Senior Officers' Course.—Bills for Signature.— Royal Assent to Companies Act, 1960, and Church Act, 1960.—Permanent Residents—Question by Mr Colebourn, TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960 513 money to advertise the Isle of Man as a EXPANSION OF AUTOMOBILE residential centre in overseas territori- INDUSTRY—QUESTIONS BY ties. The editgr of "Corona," a publi- MR COLEBOURN cation which circulates widely in the Colonial Service, has recently accepted Mr Colebourn: Your Excellency, could an article entitled "Isle of Man—Isle of I ask the questions standing in my Retirement," and in it I have dealt com- name:— (a) Has Government taken any prehensively with such of the Island's action to set up a small committee (with features which have a special attraction a content of businessmen) to investigate to persons who have spent most of their the possibility of the Isle of Man taking working lives outside the / United King- part in the expansion of the autotmobile industry to Merseyside? (b) Is it not a dom. fact that the area around Castletown Mr Colebourn: Your Excellency, I and Ronaldsway would be a good site would like to ask one supplementary for the establishment of satellite fac- tories for sub-contractors to this indus- question. Is it not true to say that there try, such as manufacturers of small are many families living overseas who electrical and associated components, have been abroad for 20 to 30 years and together with the small plastic injection have lost contact with relations and mouldings which are used in such large friends in the United Kingdom and that quantities in the manufacture of motor- the Isle of Man can offer many attrac- cars? (c) Is it not a fact that the tions as a permanent place for residence Ronaldsway site could provide easy and in their retirement? quick transport for this class of manu- factured goods to Merseyside? The Governor: I certainly would not quarrel with a statement of that kind. The Governor: In reply to (a) the (Laughter.) answer is "No." I am, however, in touch with the Home Office about the Mr Kerruish: I should like to ask a possibility of the Isle of Man sharing in supplementary question, Your Excel- the re-distribution and institution of lency. Are you aware, sir, that the industrial enterprise in those parts of Tourist Board's campaign to attract the United Kingdom where economic aid is needed. (b) Castletown and permanent residents has been so suc- Ronaldsway districts are admirable sites cessful that the estate agents are unable for the establishment of satellite fac- to provide houses of the type sought by tories for sub-contracting to the auto- intending permanent residents. To mobile industry. This has been meet the demand created, would Your evidenced by the success of the factories Excellency give consideration to the which are now in that area, and I am provision of suitable residences in the stressing in my approach to the United Isle of Man which cannot at present be Kingdom Government the advantages provided? presented not only by this region but by the whole Island. (c) The proximity of The Governor: I was not aware in fact the Airport and the moderate air freight that house agents were not now able to charges could be a help in establishing find residences for those who wished to a liaison between factories producing reside here permanently and I am cer- small component parts and the main tainly prepared to give consideration to construction and assembly plants in the the point raised by the hon. member Liverpool area. whether in the provision of actual resi- Mr Colebourn: Thank you, sir. Now, dences or making some means available as a supplementary question, is it not by which the residences could come into true to say that motor-car manufac- being. turers scheduled to build factories on

Expansion of Automobile Industry—Questions by Mr Colebourn. 514 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960

Merseyside have expressed some doubt 'ann. member for Castletown. In addi- as to whether their will be sufficient tion, literature has been sent to several labour available in these areas, and flrms in the United Kingdom setting out would it not be advantageous both to the factors which are of benefit to pros- the Isle of Man and to sub-contractors aective industrialists, which the supple- to the motor industry if a number of our nent to the "Times Weekly Review" of young men could be sent to factories in /larch 26th, 1959, conveys in very con- the United Kingdom now for training so - ise terms. An article under my name that they could in due course provide a will also shortly appear in the "F.B.I. nucleus of skilled personnel for the aeview" entitled "The Attractions of establishment of satellite factories on Work in the Isle of Man." (2) I am the Island when the motor-car industry about to appoint Mr B. A. Williams, starts production on Merseyside? 2.B.E., an expert from the United King- :1cm, to inquire into industrial condi- The Governor: In reply to the first ions in the Isle of Man, with particular part of the question, I was not in fact .eference to: (i) the factors which mili- aware that doubt had been expressed as .ate both for and against industry as a to whether sufficient labour would be :hole and/or firms in particular; (ii) available for this new motor-car indus- he taxation system as it affects indus- try on Merseyside. And in reply to the ry; (iii) Government assistance to second part, I am certainly prepared to incoming firms; (iv) possible further give consideration to the question of assistance; and (v) marketing problems. training young men for this industry. lie will be asked to determine the There are quite a lot of such schemes industrial potential of the Island, to already in operation, for this very pur- 3uggest ways of broadening the Island's pose of training young men for industry. Industrial economy. In addition to the aelp he will give Government in formu- lating an industrial policy, the object of INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT— -Lis inquiry will also be to discover and QUESTION BY MR McFEE ,iradicate- any causes of dissatisfaction that have arisen recently in the estab- The Governor: I call on the hon. lishment of new industries in the Island. member, Mr McFee. (3) Mr Williams' report will be placed Mr McFee: I beg to ask the questions aefore Tynwald after it is received and standing in my name: (1) In view of the there will be opportunity for a debate great expansion and development of at that time. industry particularly in the North-West area of England,, what recent steps has Mr McFee: I would like to thank you the Isle of Man Government taken to for your very important announcement attract industrialists to the Island? (2) about this special appointment, Your Will Your Excellency make a full report Excellency. I think it is the answer to on the Manx Government's policy for the whole problem. Thank you, sir. industrial development and the setting up of further light industries in the Island? (3) In view of the existing COAST EROSION—QUESTION BY unemployment situation and the diffi- MR A. C. TEARE culty school-leavers experience in find- ing suitable employment within the The Governor: Thank you. I now call Island, will Your Excellency allow an an the hon. member, Mr A. C. Teare. opportunity to have the matter fully Mr A. C. Teare: Your Excellency, I debated in Tynwald when the report is beg to ask the following question stand- made? ing in my name:—Is Your Excellency The Governor: This question has par- aware of the extensive inroads which tially been answered in reply to the have recently been made by the sea at

Industrial Development—Question by Mr McFee.—Coast Erosion—Question by Mr A. C. Teare TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960 515

Cranstal,. , especially on February next question, has been s carried out 29th? As occupied property has been under the aegis of a sub-committee of seriously endangered by the persistent Executive Council. The matter of the erosion of the north-east coast of the necessity for public conveniences in the Island, will Your Excellency consider vicinity of the newly developed valley what practical steps, if any, can be has been discussed by that committee taken to arrest this process, which is with the Laxey Commissioners from causing loss to persons owning land and time to time. In view of the fact that houses in the area? the Commissioners have agreed to levy The Governor: I have inspected some a special rate towards the maintenance coast erosion in certain areas and am of the Valley, it was thought reasonable aware of the recent erosion at Cranstal, to provide toilets from the allocation though I have not yet seen it for myself. made for the development of thevalley. I have recently addressed the chairmen The proposal was not, in fact, referred, of the Boards within whose purview the as indeed it should have been, to the question of coast erosion arises, and Local Government Board, and when have asked them to consider the ques- that Board raised the matter, it was de- tion and let me have their recommen- cided to postpone any decision as to the dations regarding such action as might building of the conveniences until such reasonably be taken by Government. time as the Board's advice was avail- able. This is not yet to hand, and no Mr A. C. Teare: Thank you, Your decision, therefore, is yet possible. (2) Excellency. Yes, I am aware of those facts. (3) No, sir. The Commissioners have been advised that since the conveniences PUBLIC CONVENIENCES— would be for the benefit mainly of resi- QUESTIONS BY MR. E. C. IRVING dents and visitors resident in , the cost of building them was a proper The Governor: I call on the hon. charge against the local authority. member, Mr Irving. Mr Irving: I thank you for your reply, Mr Irving: Your Excellency, I beg to sir. ask the questions standing in my name: (1) Will Your Excellency please state whether the Government decided that the cost of the construction of new LAXEY "DEADS"—QUESTION BY public conveniences at Laxey would be MR E. C. IRVING met entirely from Government Funds? The Governor: I call upon the same (2) Is Your Excellency aware that, in member. the case of proposals for the construc- tion of public conveniences at Kirk Mr Irving: Your Excellency. I beg to Michael and Port Erin, Government ask the question standing in my name: financial assistance was refused, and, (1) Will Your Excellency please state in the case of , assistance was what sums of Money have been spent, limited to 50 per cent, of the cost? (3) and for what purposes, on the improve- As the Port Erin Commissioners are ment of the Laxey "Deads"? (2) Will now seeking permission to borrow the Your Excellency please indicate the sum of 24,500 for new public con- probable future expenditure on the veniences, would Your Excellency re- "Deads" and for what purposes? consider an application for Government The Governor: In reply to the hon. financial assistance? member for West Douglas, the total The Governor: The recent develop- expenditure up to date on the Laxey ment of the Laxey Valley, to which the Valley is £28,427 16s 8d As the hon. hon. member will be referring in the member may be aware, Laxey is be-

Public Conveniences—Questions by Mr E. C. Irving.—Laxey "Deads"—Question by Mt E. C. Irving 516 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960 coming increasingly popular as a resort IMPROVEMENT— for visitors, and it was considered essen- QUESTION BY MR E. C. IRVING tial that something should be done to The Governor: Thank you. There is eradicate the eyesore that existed there one more question from the hon. in the shape of the "Deads"—heaps of member. rocks on which nothing would grow, and a jumble of old mining washing floors, Mr Irving: I beg to ask the question broken down buildings and chimneys. standing in my name, sir: Will Your The land cost £1,511, together with Excellency give sympathetic considera- £6 4s 6d for legal fees. £250 was paid tion to plans for the improvement of to the Isle of Man Electricity Board for Foxdale area? the removal of poles in the Upper The Governor: In reply to the hon. Valley, and grass seed cost £10 10s. member for West Douglas, I understand The great bulk of the expenditure— that the Isle of Man Local Government some £26,650—has been spent in turn- Board are, in fact, at present consider- ing this derelict area into a pleasance ing this question, and I shall, pre- where the visitor can walk or take his sumably, receive their recommendations ease in attractive surroundings. The in due course. I shall be pleased to work has also provided extremely consider any recommendations which the Board may submit in my capacity as valuable employment to Laxey residents Governor in Council. over several winters. (2) I cannot say what the future expenditure is likely to Mr Irving: Thank you, sir. be. Government is, however, com- mitted to a further expenditure of £521 in respect of the current winter's work, SULBY DRAINAGE SCHEME— and it is proposed to spend about £300 QUESTION BY MR H. H. RADCLIFFE on the provision of plants and shrubs. The Governor: I call on the hon. In addition, Government, through the member, Mr Radcliffe. Isle of Man Highway and Transport Board, has accepted responsibility for Mr Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I beg the future maintenance of the Lower to ask the chairman of the Local Valley, but the Laxey Village Commis- Government Board the question stand- sioners have agreed to levy a 6d rate ing in my name: What are the reasons for, or circumstances responsible for, which will produce about £300 per the delay of the completion of Part II annum. This will be paid to Govern- of the Sulby Village Drainage Scheme? ment towards the maintenance costs. Hon. members will be aware that the Mr Crellin: In reply to the question valley has been laid out in such a way asked by the hon. member for , I that annual maintenance costs will not beg to state that in October last be high, and it is anticipated that the tenders for Part II of the Sulby Village contribution from the Laxey Village Drainage Scheme were invited from registered contractors by Press notice. Commissioners will be almost sufficient Four tenders were received and the to cover the cost of such work. There lowest accepted, subject to the approval may have to be some further small final of Tynwald to the necessary money tidying up and lay-out work to be done vote. The vote of a sum not exceeding in both portions of the Valley. £7,400 was approved by Tynwald on over several winters. the 17th November, 1959. The contract has been let, the materials ordered and Mr Irving: I thank you, sir, for your the contractor is ready to commence reply. My question was not in any work. The site for the disposal works sense a criticism. has been purchased and the purchase

Foxdale Improvement—Question by Mr E. C. Irving.—Sulby Drainage Scheme— Question by Mr H. H. Radcliffe. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960 517

money paid over. The circumstances Mr Radcliffe: I thank the hon. mem- • responsible for the delay in this scheme ber for his very full and complete arose out of difficulty experienced by answer, which will answer the many the Board and the Attorney-General's questions which are being asked with department in ascertaining and treating regard to this matter. with the owners of one of the pro- perties concerned. Notices under the Special Drainage Districts Act were sent out at the beginning of November, TOURIST BOARD OFFICE ON 1959, to the owners of the various pro- STEAMERS—QUESTION BY perties through which. the sewer for the MR T. H. COLEBOURN Sulby Village Drainage Scheme was to The Governor: I call on the hon. pass. Unfortunately there was incorrect member for Castletown. information given to the Board as to the owner of one of the properties and Mr Colebourn: Your Excellency, I beg the person who received the notice, and to ask the chairman of the Tourist who was not the owner, did not either Board the following question standing in acknowledge it or inform the Board of my name: Has the Tourist Board taken the mistake. The Attorney-General's any action in regard to the suggestion department ultimately ascertained that recently published in the local Press— the property was in the hands of a life "That a Tourist Board Office should be tenant and that there were two remain- dermen, one of whom resided out of the established during the summer months Isle of Man. In order to obviate the on the steamers sailing from Fleetwood delay •which the sending of notices and Liverpool"? would entail, a wayleave agreement was Mr J. M. Cain: The brief answer to prepared immediately and, on the 2nd the question is "No." Members may February, 1960, was sent to the advo- wish, however, to know more of the cates acting for ths estate concerned for suggestion referred to, which was, in execution by their clients. These advo- fact, made by the hon. member for cates had not up to then been aware of Castletown in a newspaper article dated the position and they replied on the 17th December, 1959. The hon. member - following day. that the property in ques- suggested that inquiry offices should be tion had been sold to a new owner the established on the various steamers and previous month. Negotiations were equipped so as to be able to speak to forthwith opened with the new owner the Tourist Board's Head Office by and difficulties and further delay arose direct radio communication. Using this owing to disagreement between the radio communication, taxis could be owner and the Board as to the amount booked by passengers, accommodation of the consideration money and the reserved and buses arranged to meet covenants to be entered into by the passengers for various out-town destina- Board. More than money was involved tions upon arrival of the steamer. Pre- as the Board felt it would be a dan- liminary consideration of the sugges- gerous procedure to pay at a higher tion reveals very real and substantial rate for such a wayleave than has been difficulties would have to be overcome customary for very many years. These before they could be implemented. Not disputes were finally settled satisfac- least of which would be the high cost of torily and the agreement was executed operation and also the difficulty of pro- by the owner on the 1st March. Owing viding suitable staff and space on the to the absence of the owner from the eight steamers involved where space is Island it was not until the 10th March already at a premium during busy that the agreement was received back week-ends. by the Attorney-General's office and the Board notified that work could proceed. Members: Hear, hear.

Tourist Board Office on Steamers—Question by Mr T. H. Colebourn. 518 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960

Mr Colebourn: As a supplementary Mr Stephen: I think I am right in question. I should like to ask the chair- stating that radio telephones from man of the Tourist Board, is it not true steamers are very rigidly controlled, to say that if such an office was and it is almost impossible to instal a opened-- ship-to-shore radio telephone for this purpose. Mr A. C. Teare: As a supplementary question, sir-- Deemster Kneale: It would be impos- sible without the licence of the Members: One is being asked. Postmaster-General. Mr A. C. Teare: Let him get on with Mr J. M. Cain: I am afraid it is rather it then. (Laughter.) over our heads, but I will abide by what the hon. member for Douglas South, Mr Mr Colebourn: Is it not true to say Stephen, has said. that if such an office was opened on the steamers sailing from Liverpool and Mr Stephen: I think the First Deem- Fleetwood, a very valuable service could stem agreed with me. be plovided for our visitors? Could not such an office be used to advise visitors of accommodation, coach tours, etc. COAST EROSION—QUESTION BY Could not arrangements be made by use MR E. B. C. FARRANT TO THE of the ship's radio-telephone for out-of- CHAIRMAN OF THE HARBOUR town transport to be assembled at the BOARD Pier to convey the out-of-town passen- gers to their destination on arrival in The Governor: Question No. 9, ques- Douglas? We have what is known as a tion by Mr E. B. C. Farrant. captive audience for 31 hours. Could Mr Farrant: I beg to ask the chairman not the Tourist Board "sell" to a large of the Harbour Board the following extent, the Island during those 34 question standing in my name, Your hours? Excellency: (1) Is he aware that since he recently viewed the evidence of coast The Governbr: Would the hon. chair- erosion on the north-west coast of the man of the Board like to take each of Island, at Kirk Michael and Jurby, fur- the supplementary questions separately? ther falls of cliff have taken place there, Mr J. M. Cain: Yes, Your Excellency. and that on the east coast, at Cranstal, In reply to the hon. member for Castle- in the Parish of Bride, cottages are town I would say that this might be- threatened by a fall of sand, and there come—if it was established—rather a is imminent danger that these cottages dangerous thing. It might lead to a will be swept away. (2) Is he aware' of position whereby people coming by boat, the ' increasing visitor popularity of having booked no accommodation at all Kirk Michael and its environs, and —leaving us to make the bookings. We particularly with encampments for then would become the responsible body children and will he give Tynwald an for booking accommodation, and that assurance that steps will be taken to could become very dangerous. We safeguard the visitors against falls could become booking agents involved of sand which might lead to serious with other booking agents. It is a very consequences? (3) Will the chairman dangerous and tricky proposition. of the Board please state what steps are being taken in this matter of coast Mr Kaneen: Would the chairman of erosion, and what is the policy to be the Tourist Board not agree that the adopted in this connection? first consideration should be to get the people on the landing stages at Fleet- Mr Kelly: The answer to Part I of the wood and Liverpool? question is in the affirmative and the answer to the first part of Part II is also Mr J. M. Cain: How right he is, sir. in the affirmative, but I would point out

Coast Erosion—Question by Mr E. B. C. Farrant to the Chairman of the Harbour Board. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960 519 that the Harbour Board's prime respon- member and this Court that the figures sibility is the maintenance of the Har- run between £50,000 and £75,000 per bours of the Island and I cannot see mile with no guarantee against the why this question of safeguarding visi- falling of sand. tors against fall of sand at Kirk Michael is addressed to the chairman of the Mr Edward Ca'lister: Your Excel- Harbour Board. I am unable to answer lency, in view of that statement that the question. I understand that coast the protection of the coast from erosion erosion has been considered by various would cost a minimum of about Committees of Tynwald—one in 1892, £750,000, will the chairman of the Board another in 1897, and another in 1924. give his assurance that the Board will No action has followed the formation of not spend money on protecting the coast these committees, the reason generally line in view of the fact that there is still being the prohibitive cost of carrying so much land in the Island under- out protective work. Following a developed or going out of cultivation. survey carried out by the then Harbour Engineer, an extensive report of 1951 Mr Kelly: I can give the assurance was prepared and submitted to the that under no circumstances will the Governor at that time. A communica- Harbour Board spend money on coast tion was received by the Harbour protection unless it is approved by this Board from Government Office inti- Court. mating that this had been carefully considered by the Legislative Committee Mr Crowe: May I ask a supple- of the Executive Council, and they mentary question, Your ExCellency?. I recommended in 1952 that legislation on would like to ask the chairman of the the subject of coast protection should Board, in view of the fact that a sum of- not be brought forward. This was en- money was included in the Harbour dorsed by the Executive Council and Board's estimates two years ago for the accepted by the Lieutenant-Governor. purpose of estimating the loss of land Mr Edward Callister: May I ask a per year, would he give some indica- supplementary question, Your Excel- tion of this loss per year, and at the lency? How many miles of the coast same time I would like to thank Your of the Isle of Man are affected by coast Excellency very much for going to Kirk erosion, and how much per mile would Michael and seeing for yourself the it cost to protect the coast from damage that is being done there and erosion? getting the chairman of the various Mr. Crowe: I, too, would like to ask authorities together to see what could a supplementary question, Your Excel- be done about this serious matter. lency. Mr Kelly: In reply to the hon. member The Governor: I think it would be for Ayre, sir, the posts he has referred simpler for the hon. member the to were put into the sand, or shore, in chairman of the Board, to answer the our survey of this problem. It is a supplementary questions one at a time. fact that the Court approved a sum of £500 for a coast survey. We carried Mr Kelly: In reply to the hon. member out that survey with the help of, I for Douglas North, Your Excellency, the think,. Liverpool University some years coastline affected is approximately fif- ago, and the amount of land which is teen miles—eleven miles on the north- being taken away by erosion is approxi- west coast of the Isle of Man and appro- mately two acres a year. If you take ximately four miles on the north-east it over a hundred years the loss will be coast,. and the figures—we have worked about 200 acres—that will be the extent them out at the Harbour Board—vary of land which will be devoured by the considerably, but I can tell the hon. sea.

Coast Erosion—Question by Mr. E. B. C. Farrant to the Chairman of the Harbour Board. 520 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960

Mr Radcliffe: I also would like to ask (Laughter.) Your Excellency, Ramsey a supplementary question, sir. In view has protected her coastline, too. Run- of the answer given by the chairman of ning south of the Queen's Promenade the Board (which would indicate that, right down to Port-e-Vullan from a geo- because of the prohibitive cost, what is graphical point of view—you will under- a national responsibility will not be stand what I am talking about, and undertaken) would the chairman con- many of these property owners have sider it equable that, as a responsible done some elementary work to protect party, he should put forward to Your their land and don't expect the Govern- Excellency for approval, an idea that ment to do everything. where there is personal loss or personal hardship to homes and personal Lt.-Cdr. Quine: May I ask a supple- belongings, because of this coast erosion mentary question, sir? Is the chair- (which occurs because of neglect by the man aware that as well as the erosion Government) a scheme for compensa- on the coast in the vicinity of Kirk tion--- Michael, there is also an accretion of land. The land is increasing on the Deemster Kneale: It is not neglect by north-west and has been doing so for a the Government. number of years. Does the Harbour Board measure this accretion as well? Mr Radcliffe: Failure by the Govern- ment, then, to carry out a national res- Mr Kelly: I will have a copy of the ponsibility, would the chairman of the report sent to the hon. and gallant Board put before His Excellency a member, Commander Quine, We have scheme for compensation in cases of a full report on accretion. extreme hardship as would be done in Mr Crowe: One more supple- any built-up area devastated by an act mentary question, Your Excellency. In of God-- view of the cost which the chairman of Deemster Kneale: It is not devastated. the Board has stated it would cost to protect the coast from Kirk Michael Mr Kelly: I suggested before that along to Ramsey, is he thinking of build- whatever comes before us in the way of ing a promenade all the way along? money would have to be dealt with by this Court. This was explained by me Mr Farrant: Your Excellency, I think in my first reply. It is a matter which the chairman of the Board has quoted has been already'dealt with in England fantastic figures, and I intend to raise where there is a Coast Protection Act, the question at a later date. and all the towns and villages along the coast of Britain are involved. The Gov- ernment possibly would help as well, but IMPROVEMENTS AT CASTLE there is a rating system whereby all the —QUESTION BY MR COOLE people involved have to pay a rate for coast protection. I think it is opportune The Governor: Now, item 10 and I to say that a lot of property owners have call upon the hon member for Rushen, taken steps to protect their property and Mr Coole, to ask the question standing you see an indication of this in the town in his name. of Douglas, where the Douglas Corpora- Mr Coole: I beg to ask the chairman tion have built promenades all along of the Government Property Trustees their coastline. Ramsey has done the the following question standing in my same, and Peel has done eVen more name: In view of the statement made in Mr Gale: Peel has not. the Press this last few weeks that great improvements have been made at Castle Mr Kelly: Well, who put the pro- Rushen, will the chairman please inform menades there, then? It is a protection; the Court what improvements have otherwise there would be no promenade. taken place, and the cost?

Improvements at Castle Rushen—Question by Mr Coole. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960 521

Mr Kelly: I hope, Your Excellency,. I Mr Irving: May I inform the chair- am not going to be in the wars again! man of the Board that I was the person In reply to the hon. member I should who said that very big things were like in the first place to comment planned for Castle Rushen,. and the slightly on the hon. member's affirma- words were not made up by the Press tion that it was stated in the Press that at all. Is the hon. member aware that great improvements had been made at these statements were made at a politi- Castle Rushen. I don't know where the cal meeting in Castletown when certain Press got the information from or residents were objecting that nothing whether they "thought it up." In fact, had been done up to then? Also, may it was stated in two papers in the Island we take it that the renovation of the that "Very big things were planned" for Deemsters' Room and Advocates Room the Castle. I have seen no reference has been done with a view to attracting anywhere to the fact that great im- the attention and interest of the public provements have already been made. and not for the convenience of the Now, as to what has already been done, Deemsters and advocates? we have completely redecorated and Mr Kelly: Your Excellency, I am partly refurnished the Deemsters' Room aware that the meeting in question was and the Advocates' Room in Derby more or less an electioneering effort, House to bring them as nearly as pos- and this question is now re-introduced sible to good replicas of 18th century regarding the condition of the Deem- work. They are both beautiful rooms ster's Room. It is perfectly correct to and it is the intention to make them say it is for the interest of the people available to the public when accom- who wish to go there. panied by .a guide Mr Kerruish:, Your Excellency, the Mr Bolton: A guard! hon. member told us he is unable to give the Court details of developments; Mr Kelly: No, a guide, when the nevertheless, we are now told that a rooms are not in official use. The member of the committee of which he exhibit of vehicles, the Quayle coach is chairman has said in public that such and so on, has been renovated, re- developments are to take place, and if arrangal and exhibited to better advan- we are told that major developments are tage in the outer gatehouse. Seating in the air why should not this Court be has been provided in the various rooms informed as to what they are? of the Castle where it seemed necessary. New labels properly describing the Mr Kelly: Your Excellency, I don't rooms have been written for us by a happen to be chairman of this special prominent London archaeologist and committee appointed to go into this these are now in place. Some floures- question. That committee had several cent lighting has been installed, but the meetings. We had the advice of an whole matter of lighting and heating is expert from across the water, and these now receiving expert attention. The matters the hon. member refers to will cost to date has been £541. Plans are come up in the form of a report. There in hand for other developments which are very interesting subjects to be the committee think should prove a con- dealt with and I am sure the Court siderable attraction, although, I think will be very interested to hear of it is rather gilding the lily—but that them. We have been asked to make a may be a habit of the Press—to des- report and that is what we will do. cribe them as being "very big things." You can be assured, Your Excellency Exact details of these, however, will not and hon. members, that we shall do be decided for a few weeks, and when nothing without presenting a full they are, Tynwald will be asked to vote report on the recommendations we pro- the necessary monies to make their pose to make, plus an estimate of the realisation possible. cost.

Improvements at Castle Rushen—Question by Mr coole, 522 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960

Mr McFee: Would the hon. member a long period, a very considerable say that the statements made were pre- amount of construction work and super- mature and confidential and should not elevation must take place prior to the have been made until Tynwald had final surface laying. The Board is received the report? giving priority to main roads and will Mr Kelly: Your Excellency, I don't continue that policy. If the estimates think I am allowed to make any reply. for 1960/61 are examined carefully it These are leading questions. Anyway, will be seen that apart from main- he has given the answer himself. tenance, a total of £81,537 will be spent on reconstruction and special works, all of which is on Class 1 roads and in- USE OF BLAW-KNOX MACHINE ON cludes a very considerable use of the ROADS—QUESTION BY MR CCOLE Blaw-Knox machine. The Surveyor- General has prepared answers to the The Governor: Question No. 11. I hon. member's questions in detail, and call on the hon. member, Mr Coole. I will now read what he has prepared Mr Coole: Your Excellency, I beg to for me. It is: (1) Up to 9th March, 1960, ask the following question of the chair- the Blaw-Knox finishing machine has man of the Highway and Transport been available for use a total of 62 Board: (1) Would the chairman of the weeks. (2) The machine has been used Board please inform the Court how on the main (Class 1) roads on 70 days many weeks the Blaw-Knox machine laying a total tonnage of tarred and has been available for use since it was bituminous macadam of 9,409 tons. In bought and assembled? (2) How many addition to this working period on Class days the machine has been used on the 1 roads, the machine has been used on main roads? (3) If the declared policy other works as follows, viz., Marine of the Board was to give priority to Drive.. 26 days; Loop Road, 12 main roads„ why has it been used on days; private work for local authorities, less important roads? (4) How many 13 days. (3) Whereas the declared days was it used on the Loop Road at policy of the Highway and Transport the White City, Onchan, and the total Board was, and is, to give priority to cost involved for this improvement of main roads, this does not preclude the the road? (5) The declared policy of use of the Blaw-Know machine on sur- the Board in obtaining this machine was facing works on roads other than Class to recondition the main roads (Class 1). 1 roads in view of the improved surface In what category is the Loop Road finish and cheaper unit cost obtainable classified? in comparison with laying the surfaces Mr Bolton: Your Excellency, before by hand. All classes of road requiring giving detailed answers to the five re-surfacing will have the finishing sur- questions, I would like to point out that faces laid by the machine so that, in plant purchased for use by the Board is time, the road surfaces in the Island and will always be used on any work generally will have considerably im- for which it is suitable and in all cases proved and uniform running surfaces. in which the use of the plant will result In the 1960-61 estimates (before the in the most efficient work and the best Court), it will be observed that all the results. The Blaw-Knox is not a road- reconstruction and special work are to making machine. It is a road-surfacing be carried out on Class 1 Roads at a machine. The use of the machine will total estimated cost of £81.557, and the result in better and more lasting road surfacing work to be carried out on surfaces, and if its use is to give the main roads is governed solely by the best results and if the Island's main funds made available by Tynwald. roads are to be improved and be capable Bearing in mind that on an average day of being used to the best advantage for the cost of laying material with the

Use of Blaw-Knox Machine on Roads —Question by Mr T, A. Coole. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960 523

Blaw-Knox machine is in the region of what might have been a very serious £700 (all-in cost), the Court will appre- position with regard to drought in the ciate that it is not financially possible Island last year. It involves a sum of to keep this machine fully occupied all £3,850. Provided certain works are car- the year round. The amount of sur- ried out before 1960, it should be facing work done by the machine is possible to minimise the effects on the governed by the amount of the approved visiting industry of any drought which estimate for each class of road. (4) The might occur, by adopting the number of days the Blaw-Knox was following policy (a) imposing res- used on the Loop Road, Onchan, was 12 trictions on the resident population days (seven days working). This im- early in the year„ should the reservoirs provement is still uncompleted but the start to fall; (b) relaxing these restric- costs are as follows, viz: (a) Total cost tions to the maximum extent during the of work to 9th March, 1960, £5,155; (b) peak of the visiting season, and (c) re- estimated cost of completion of scheme. imposing restrictions, if necessary, £1,115; (c) estimated completion cost during the autumn. The sum of £3,850 (against estimated cost of £6,300). is made up of preparatory works to be £6,270; (d) 771 tons of bitumen constructed immediately, £1,350; and macadam have been laid in the two-coat pumps and pipes to be kept in stock, surfacing carried out by the machine £2,500. The general scheme is to con- and cost £2,435. (5) The Loop Road, struct a temporary dam on the Glionn Onchan is a Class 3 road and the an- Chaltun at a point approximately 750 swer given to question (3) gives the yards south of the filters, reason for using the machine on this and a temporary pipeline from this road. point to a point just upstream of the weir 600 yards to the south-east of Glen Mr Coole: Your Excellency, I wish to Maye filters. A temporary pump sited thank the hon. chairman of the Board near the weir would lift water against for his answers. the pressure of the Quarry reservoir into Glen Maye filters. By this means the effect of a drought similar to the WATER BOARD—EMERGENCY year just passed could be entirely met WORKS TO ALLEVIATE POSSIBLE at present rates of consumption and the DROUGHT effects of an earlier drought minimised. And in the south to construct an intake, The Governor: That concludes the and thus utilise an additional stream, questions, gentlemen. In the absence of at Awin Vitchell; construct a temporary the chairman of the Isle of Man Water dam, pump house and pipeline on the Board, who is indisposed, I will call on Silverburn River, to supplement flow His Honour the First Deemster to deal from Cringle Reservoir; construct with item 5 on the agenda. similar works on the Colby River to the north at Ballachrink,. to pump water Deemster Kneale: Your Excellency, in into the Scard water main. The main the regrettable absence of the chairman point is these works are necessary as a of the Water Board, I beg to move the following resolution:— safeguard, so that we should be pre- pared. In these schemes it would be That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be necessary to carry out some work imme- authorised to apply from the current revenue of this Isle during the year ending March diately. The sitnation does not solve 31st, 1960, a sum not exceeding £3,850 to the main problem but it serves to aug- enable the Isle of Man Water Board to pur- ment the supplies, and we may be able chase pumps and pipes and construct to control the restrictions that may be necessary preparatory works to alleviate possible future drought conditions. necessary in case of a shortage. This is a simple matter of taking cer- Mr Irving: Your Excellency, there is tain precautions against a repetition of now a Joint Committee on Water in the

Water Board—Emergency Works to Alleviate Possible Drought, 524 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960

Isle of Man. It consists of members of necessary. I understand that in addi- the Isle of Man Water Board and tion to a supply of water from the members of the Douglas Corporation. Silverburn River, there is also provi- That, I feel, sir, is an improvement on sion for using some of the water from the old situation, where there was no the Colby River, water that was avail- liaison between the Isle of Man Water able all last summer. The Court has Board and the Douglas Corporation. I been asked on a number of occasions wonder if the learned Deemster can to commit the Island to an expenditure assure us that these proposals have been of vast sums and given an assurance agreed on by the Joint Committee. I that all available sources of water were think that in future with regard to any used while this resolution clearly indi- proposals concerning water, they should cates that all available sources of water be made by the joint committee, appre- were not completely used at the time ciating the supplies available to both when this Court was asked to spend bodies. something over £760,000. I think another point in connection with the Mr McFee: Your Excellency, I would Joint Committee of which the hon, like to ask why the learned Deemster member for West Douglas, Mr Irving is moving this resolution. I feel that spoke, is that there was an occasion re- the proper person is the chairman of cently where I asked the chairman of the Local Government Board, because the Water Board what steps were being that Board is responsible for an ade- taken to ensure that water available quate supply of water in the Isle of from Douglas Corporation supplies Man. Now sir, it is about eight years could be conveyed through existing since the Water Board announced it was mains to the south of the Island. I necessary for a new reservoir to be wonder if His Honour or the hon. mem- built in the Isle of Man, as otherwise ber of the Council, the chairman of the parts of the Island, the south in parti- Local Government Board, is able to cular, would experience a water short- inform the Court if any steps have been age. Eight years ago the announce- taken to remove the bottleneck which ment was made,. and for a number of exists in the trunk mains and which has years past we have been finding so far made it impossible to convey any different Boards and different com- substantial quantity of water from mittees dilly-dallying as to what will be Douglas Corporation sources of supply a major scheme. We are still waiting to the south of the Island where the a report from the Local Government greatest need has existed. Board as to what will be the proper scheme for major development. Could Mr Crellin: The hold-up was really the learned Deemster or the hon. mem- due to no report coming from the Joint ber of the Council tell us when the Committee on the proposals set out by scheme will be finalised and a report Mr Spens. With regard to the question placed before Tynwald. raised by Mr Simcocks about the pump- ing of water from Douglas to the South Mr Simcocks: Your Excellency, while I understand plans have been got out I welcome this resolution as a step to for the construction of a reservoir at safeguard supplies to the south of the Mount Murray, but there is a difference Island, I cannot help thinking that when of opinion whether the pipes from there the Water Board were making out a to Rushen are large enough, The Water case to have a new reservoir to supply Board engineer says they are—the the west and the south the Court Spens pipes were very much larger— was given to understand that all avail- and Mr Spens says he adheres to his able sources of water had been com- report. I do not think this committee pletely exploited, and for that reason it has had many meetings, but I wish they was suggested that a new reservoir was would get on with it if we are to have

Water Board—Emergency Works to Alleviate Possible Drought, TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960 525 something done before this summer. It TOURIST BOARD— is necessary that more work should be SUPPLEMENTARY VOTE FOR undertaken to assure an adequate £1.050 supply for the south than is on this The Governor: Item 6, I call on the agenda. Colby River was used and hon. member, the chairman of the water pumped to Cringle Reservoir. Tourist Board. Lt.-Cdr. Quine: May I ask His Mr J. M. Cain:. I beg to move the Honour, with reference to item 7 following resolution:— That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be Deemster Kneale: We have not got to authorised to apply from the current revenue of this Isle during the year ending March that yet. 31st, 1969, a sum not exceeding £1,050 as a grant to the Isle of Man Tourist Board for Lt.-Cdr. Quine: I will raise it later. the fallowing purposes:— (a) Advertising the Island £550 Deemster Kneale: First of all, as to (b) Grants in respect of Road Races 500 the point of why I took the resolution. £1,050 I am, of course, always ready to stick my neck out. (Laughter.)) We were Such sums to be in addition to the sums of £62.200 and £26,000 respectively voted by only informed shortly before the Court Tynwald on June 17th, 1959. sat Mr A. J. Teare is not available. I was asked to take it. I have been inti- As members will see, this is an applica- mately acquainted with water schemes tion for a supplementary vote of £1,050. for many years and have some special Members have already received from the Government Secretary, in a letter knowledge on the subject. May I make dated 22nd February, 1960, a full it quite clear that it was because it was account of the reasons which have led a matter of such a trivial character that to this request. The whole of this sum it did not require great consideration of money is required to meet excess by the Joint Committee. We have the expenditure in connection with three pipes in hand to get on with it. events which are financed, in whole or in part, by the Race Committee. The Governor: Before I put the ques- tion on item 5, perhaps I might clarify The resolution was carried. the position with regard to delay on the question of implementation of the main water scheme. It is due to this—that a HEALTH SERVICES BOARD— question has arisen whether the hydro- SUPPLEMENTARY VOTE FOR £15,700 electric scheme relating to Little The Governor: Item 7. I call on the London might not be considered in hon. member, the chairman of the relation to both the Spens Report and Health Services Board. the report of the water consultants. The consultants considered the Little Mr Kerruish: I beg to move the reso- London scheme some years ago and are lution standing in my name:— now working out up-to-date information That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be on the scheme with a view to its con- authorised to apply from the current revenue of this Isle during the year ending March sideration first by the Electricity Board 31st, 1960, a sum not exceeding £15,700 for the and then in relation to the water scheme purpose of defraying the expenditure to be incurred by the Isle of Man Health Services as a whole. The water scheme has been Board in the administration of the Isle of by no means forgotten. Man Health Services Act, 1948. Such sum to be in addition to the sum of The resolution was carried, £657,936 voted by Tynwald on June 16th, 1955.

Tourist Board—Supplementary Vote for £1,050.—Health Services Board— Supplementary Vote for £15,700. 526 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960

Hon. members may recall that when crease of 5 per cent. in teachers' presenting the Board's estimates last salaries had been made. Cover for this year I warned the Court of the likeli- was taken at the time. It was known, hood of increases in nursing salaries in however, that the Burnham Committee the course of the year. We had no would continue their negotiations for a available information on hand then on new scale; but it was not known when which to base any estimate to meet these the negotiations would be completed, or rises and it was in June when the what their recommendations would be. estimates were finalised I was able to The new scales became operative from mention to the Court that certain sums 1st October, 1959, and the additional had been awarded to nursing staffs in cost for the six months to 31st March. the Island and the United Kingdom 1960 is estimated to be £9,000. As hon. which would result in the Board over- members of the Court know, Govern- spending on the estimated amount ment grant is at the rate of 55 per cent. presented to Tynwald. In point of fact, and will amount to £4,950. Further, increases to nurses generally and the charge for teachers' pensions has ancillary staffs at Noble's Hospital has proved to be higher than anticipated. I amounted to approximately £21,000. have previously explained how difficult There has, however, been a saving in it is to know of every case of retire- other sections, particularly pharma- ment twelve months in advance. We do ceutical, as a result of bringing into the know of most cases when teachers are Island an expert on prescribing which serving in the Island, but there are a has had the effect of saving in prescrib- good many with service here who have ing by doctors and we have saved left to teach in different parts of Great £6,000, leaving a net figure of £15,700, Britain. As members will be aware, which is the amount of the supplemen- retirement is optional between the ages tary grant required. of 60 and 65 and, indeed, a teacher can now continue after the age of 65 if the Mr Kelly: I second the resolution. Authority desires, until he reaches 70. The resolution was carried. The actual cost of pensions for the cur- rent year will amount to over £32,600, against our estimate of £30,000—an increase of £2,600. Against these two BOARD OF EDUCATION— increases of £7,550, savings will be SUPPLEMENTARY VOTE FOR effected in other items and taking these £5,500 into account the Board consider a The Governor: Item 8. I call on the supplementary vote of £5,500 will be chairman of the Board of Education. sufficient. The Speaker: I beg to move the Mr Simcocks: I second the resolution. following resolution:— The resolution was carried. That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be authorised to apply from the current revenue of this Isle during the year ending March 31st, 1960, a sum not exceeding 5,500 for the purpose of defraying expenditure to be EMPLOYMENT -ADVISORY incurred in connection with public education. Such sum to be in addition to the sum of COMMITTEE—SUPPLEMENTARY £368,910 voted by Tynwald on June 16th, 1959. VOTE FOR £100 This supplementary vote is necessary The Governor: Item 9. The chairman because of increases in two items over of the Employment Advisory Commit- which in practice the Board have no tee. control. These two items are teachers' salaries and teachers' pensions. When Mr Nivison: In the absence of the the education estimates were before chairman I will move the following Tynwald last year, a provisional in- resolution:—

Board of Education—Supplementary Vote for £5,500.—Employment advisory Committee—Supplementary Vote for £100, TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960 527

That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be fact that the first thirteen shelters were authorised to apply from the current revenue of this Isle during the year ending March built of teak, whereas the five addi- 31st, 1960, a sum not exceeding £100 for the tional shelters have been built, of yang. purpose of defraying the expenditure in- Whether or not this change has been a curred in connection with the scheme for granting assistance to persons entering em- wise one is open to doubt as the Board's ployment in the United Kingdom. architect has commented that although Such sum to be in addition to the sum of there has been a saving in cost, some £300 voted by Tynwald on June 16th, 1959. of the additional shelters already ,need It is in respect of £100 spent in repair as the yang timber is falling assisting people with travelling ex- away and is not standing up to the penses and subsistence allowances when weather. The Corporation have been taking up employment in England. It asked the reason why the change of has been spent in excess of £300 already timber was made and their reply is voted. awaited. The resolution was carried. Mr A. C. Teare: I second the resolu- tion. The resolution was carried, SHELTERS ON DOUGLAS PROMENADE—VOTE FOR £716 The Governor: Item. 10. I call on the • EXPENSES OF GOVERNMENT, hon. member of the Council, the chair- 1960/61--VOTE OF £887,720 ON man of the Local Government Board. ACCOUNT Mr Crellin: I beg to move the follow- The Governor: Item No. 11, expenses ing resolution:— of Government. I call on the hon. member of the Council, Sir Ralph That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be authorised to apply from the current revenue Stevenson. of this Isle during the year ending March 31st, 1960, a sum not exceeding £756 by way Sir Ralph Stevenson: Your Excellency, of grant of 75 per cent, of the cost of the I beg to move the following resolu- erection of five additional shelters on the tion:— Douglas Promenade. That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be Your Excellency,. on the recommenda- authorised to apply (a) from the current tion of the Local Government Board, revenue of this Isle during the year ending approved a Government grant to the March 31st, 1961, a sum not exceeding £873,220, and (b) from the funds standing to Douglas Corporation of 75 per cent of the credit of the Isle of Man Accumulated the cost of five additional shelters on the Fund a sum not exceeding £14,500, for the _ Douglas Promenade. A similar percen- purpose of continuing to defray expenses of tage grant has already been paid to the Government as follows:— Corporation in respect of 13 shelters on (a) Current Revenue: the Promenade. The estimated cost of ADMINISTRATIVE CHARGES the five additional shelters was £1,650, 1. Executive Government £7,500 2. Administration of Jus- but the Corporation's claim stated that tice 7,000 the actual cost was only £953 9s 3d and 3. Income Tax Depart- the Government 75 per cent, grant now ments 6,000 applied for is based on this figure. The 4. Employment Exchange 4,000 first thirteen shelters cost £315 5s lid 5. Government Analyst each, but the additional five shelters and Weights and have only cost £190 13s 10d each, Measures Department 1,300 6. Police Service 27,600 although the erection and design is 7. Prison Service 1,700 identical and the work has been carried 8. Customs Service 100 out by the same contractor. On inquiry 9. Pensions 2,000 the Board finds that the difference in 10. Expenses of Legisla- cost appears to be due entirely to the ture 10,000

Shelters on Douglas Promenade—Vote for £716.—Expenses of Government, 1960/61—Vote of £887,720 on Account, 528 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960

BOARDS OF TYNIA'ALD put before Tynwald last year. It is 11. Board of Agriculture 60,000 based on the actual expenditure of the 12. Airports Board 12.500 13. Assessment Board 1,500 Boards and services under the various 14. Civil Defence Com- headings in the first quarter of the mission 7.500 current year and also on estimates of 15. Board of Education 111,000 the Boards' expenditure which may be 16. Forestry. Mines and necessary in the next quarter. The only Lands Board 18.000 17. Government Property item to which this principle does not Trustees 4,800 apply is item No. 32, which is "Winter 18. Harbour Board 40,000 Works Schemes and that is for a sum of 19. Health Services Board 190,000 £80,000. The Court will remember that 20. Highway Board 25,000 a total sum of £125,000 has been voted 21, Local Government in the course of the present financial Board 40.000 year and that all that total of £125,000 22. Local War Pensions Committee 450 has been allocated and will be called for 23 Manx Museum and in due course but not before the end of National Trust 3,170 this month. The £80,000 is a token figure 24 Manx Electric Railway and represents a re-vote of whatever Board 6,000 proportion of the £125,000 is not 25 Board of Social Ser- actually paid out by March 31st. vices 120,000 26 Tourist Board 50,000 Mr Edward Callister: Your Excel- MISCELLANEOUS lency, we are presented this morning 27. Water Supplies 600 with, giving the power or, rather, the 28. Miscellaneous Statutes 8,500 granting of a blank cheque to the 29. Miscellaneous Services 25,000 Treasurer of the Isle of Man for ex- 30. Local Authorities— Maintenance of Roads 1.000 penses of Government which amounts 31. Local Authorities- to something like £203,000 more than Devetopment Schemes 1,000 last year. Arriving at that figure I have 32. Winter Works Schemes 80,000 not taken account of the £80,000 for £873,220 Winter Works Schemes but the Emer- (b) Accumulated Fund : gency Services last year were £43,200 1. Grants and Loans to less. That is rather staggering. We Fishermen 7.500 have had no explanation from the hon. 2. Local Government member as to these additional costs. Board—Interest and One naturally expects an increase in the Sinking Fund on costs of the Health Services and the Housing Loans ... 7,000 14,500 Welfare State and the Board of Educa- tion, but to be presented with the other £887,720 items without any apology or explana- tion is rather staggering. If one were to Hon, members will recollect that Her take this resolution item by item we Majesty's Attorney-General, in moving commence with No. 1, "Executive a similar resolution last year explained Government," which gives £500 more to the Court that the passing of the and the Administration of Justice is Finance Act of 1958 made it necessary £1,200 a year more. for Tynwald to adopt a resolution Deernster Kneale: Is that all? providing for a vote on account to bridge the gap between the close of the Mr Edward Callister: There is no financial year ending on March 31st and question in the Administration of the end of June when the Budget is Justice so far as I know or any justifica- presented to Tynwald and the votes of tion for this increase of £1,200. There the year are passed. The pattern of this may be justification for increases in year's vote on account is similar to that salaries in the Income Tax Department

Expenses of Government, l960/61—Vote of £887,720 on Account. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960 529

and for additional staff and there may Mr Bolton: I would like, Your Excel- be justification for the increase in the lency, to suggest that the hon. member Employment Exchange vote by £700. is hanging his hat on the wrong peg. He We then come to the Board of Agricul- says that he knows something about ture, which had a £44,000 increase over finance and he asks to know what esti- last year and in the Board of Education, mates are being brought forward. He £50,.000. has referred to the Board of Agriculture and I believe they are asking for esti- Mr Gale: And its not finished yet. mates of £465,225. In this vote they are asking for £60,000. Mr Callister: The Local Government Board has an increase of £10,000. Mr Callister: For administration. Mr Bolton: It does not say anything Mr Crellin: That is chiefly for tourist about administration. He should know accommodation. quite clearly that the estimates are Mr Callister: I am asking for an brought before Tynwald and the Budget explanation. comes forward in June and from the first day of April until the votes are Mr Crellin: You have asked and you passed the Government must have have got it. (Laughter.) money to pay the day-to-day expenses and those are part of the estimates Mr Callister: I hope to get it before I likely to be required between the first am finished. of April and the end of June. He Lt.-Cdr. Quine: It not this a vote to should be well aware of the position, carry us over for two months. They and whether the figures vary or not, it are not extra votes by any means but should be quite apparent that day-to- votes to carry us over the next two day cover must be made and may be months. required. But to say that he wants the total amount of the estimates before the Mr Bolton: Has the hon. member votes are put before Tynwald and to finished? start comparing the token votes with last year, or even the estimates, or even Mr Edwrd Callister: I am not so the cost of Executive Government and stupid as I look, as I have said before, administration is merely wasting the and I happen to know a little about time of the Court because this is not finance. I can quite understand this is the time or the place where it can be a vote, but I am not prepared to give a criticised. The actual amounts will blank cheque without first knowing why have to be estimated and if they are and how it is needed. No comparison estimated by over one or two thousand has been made whatever with the ex- pounds then it will be picked up in the penses of last year. With the estimates estimates later on. of the Boards we have on the left-hand side of the agenda the comparative Mr Edward Callister: That is quite figures for last year, but that is not so right and I will raise it on that occa- here. Is it a question of getting this in sion. without anyone noticing what is going Mr Bolton: It is quite in order for the on? The whole policy of the Court has hon. member to do so, but not now. been one of economy, in many cases unwise economy, but here the adminis- The Speaker: While I agree with the tration costs have gone sky high. Your hon. member who has just spoken I am Excellency, I do want the mover of this bound to express a certain measure of resolution and of this vote to give this sympathY with the hon. member for Court a reasonable and proper ex- North Douglas. I am sure, the hon. planation for the increases in the votes member.in charge of the Bill will give over and above those of last year. him the information he requires. When

Expenses of Government, 1960/61—Vote of £887,720 on Account. 530 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960 the vote was passed last year it was to expenditure. •For instance, the made quite clear that it was to cover Board of Social Services are being an interim period. We accepted it then voted £120,000, but that amount will go and we accept it now, but we were also very quickly, whereas the Board of told that the amount fixed for any Agriculture are down for less than one- Board or department was co-related to seventh of their estimate because it will the estimates. When we observe that be a long time before their liability is an amount of £887,720 is required calculated. against a total of £675,000 last year, one might come to the conclusion that it is a Mr Quayle: Just a final word, Your terrific increase; 33A per cent, and Excellency. I am supporting the vote. without some detailed explanation we I am in general accord with the senti- are inclined, perhaps, to "panic" and ments expressed by several members say -are we going to have the estimates up by 33 per cent.?" I think the ques- that there seems to be difficulty in tion we should put to the hon. member finding a relationship between these in charge of the resolution is whether amounts and the full amounts. For the amounts put down here are co- example,. the Tourist Board will be re- related to the total estimates as they ceiving threequarters of the total vote. were co-related last year. If not, why the Would it not save the Court's time since difference? we appreciate this is a carry-over vote if we said "for all these matters we will Mr. Kerruish: Your Excellency, I wish give a vote of a million pounds" and to support the resolution. Last year leave it at that. It is bound to be re- His Excellency stated that he had pre- covered in the estimates. viously accepted the responsibility for the interim period but that he felt the Sir Ralph Stevenson: I must apologise, system should be realised and Tynwald Your Excellency, for not making it per- accepted responsibility through the fectly clear that this is a comparatively responsibility through the medium of a new system. We did it for the first time vote of this nature. I took this to be a last year and the figures were some- repetition of that, so that the wheels of what of a guess and they were based Government should continue to turn on a mathematical division of the esti- until the Budget was presented. Having mates and of the amounts spent by each said this, I express the sentiments that Board in each month of the year. On other speakers have expressed and I this occasion, a different system has would like to know the basis as to how been evolved. Not only have these this vote is actually made up. Last estimates been made in Government year we were told that the interim vote Office but each Board has been asked to could not be based on the estimates say what it expects to spend during the because they were not to know what all first quarter of the financial year. Some the estimates were and I think if we Boards spend much less than a quarter were to get a yardstick in relation to of their total expenditure and others this vote it would certainly prevent any spend more. But the money voted in queries in the future. It could be given the resolution is to be restricted, pend- as 10 per cent, of the vote or any other ing the final vote, to services previously percentage for that matter but some- sanctioned by Tynwald and are not to be thing to give us a proper yardstick used for new services that could be which would eliminate any queries reasonably covered-in the estimates. The when the vote was presented. co-relation of the figures with those of last year is impossible because last year Mr Stephen: I should like to be brief, was the first try at making a vote on Your Excellency. In addition to the co- account and this year we have tried to relation there should be taken into make it a little bit more realistic as the account the needs of others in regard expenses of the Boards are not level

Expenses of Government, 1960/61—Vote of £887,720 on Account. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1060 581

throughout the year but differ from Less Receipts- time to time. One question which Mr 32,100 Landing and Han- Callister raised-with regard to emer- garage Fees £36,300 4.065 Passenger and Traffic gency services-that is included in the Services 4,850 Board of Agriculture estimates this 6,375 Rentals and Sundry year. Services 7,565 The Governor: I will now put the 42,540 48.715 question standing in the name of the 14,700 Less Rebate on Land- hon. member of the Council, Sir Ralph ing Fees 17,600 Stevenson. 27,840 31,115 The vote was agreed. £67,186 £63,318 The Governor: I understand that Mr Speaker and members of the House of Capital Expenditure- Keys will be inviting members of Tyn- 2,000 Alteration to Control Tower wald to have a cup of tea this afternoon, and Services and it occurs to me gentlemen, that it 500 Jurby Passenger Facalities might be useful if we could sit a little Improvements later to-night-say to six o'clock. Would Fire and Rescue Equipment hon. members be agreeable. Garage 2,500 Development of Runway It was agreed. 22/04 91,000 The Governor: We will now adjourn £69,686 £156,818 to 2-30 p.m., gentlemen. The Court adjourned for luncheon Resolved,-that Tynwald requests His Ex- cellency to give consideration to the same in and resumed at 2-30 p.m. framing the Estimates for the year 1960/61. I hope I will be able to make myself ISLE OF MAN AIRPORTS BOARD- heard. Unfortunately, sir, I am suffer- ESTIMATES OF £156,818 ing from a cold,. and it maybe that my voice will not carry to the back of the The Governor: Item 12 on the agenda, Court. The total grant required by the gentlemen, I call on the hon. member of Airports Board for the coming financial the Airports Board. year amounts to £156,818. I have Mr Nicholls: Your Excellency, I beg caused to be circulated to hon. members to move the following resolution:- of the Court a short memo showing the Whereas the Isle of Man Airports Board division of this requirement into five have submitted their Estimates of Expendi- ture. totalling £156,818, for the financial year sections, and comparing the same with ending March 31st, 1961, made up as the approved grant for the current year. follows:- Firstly, the amount required for the 1950/60 1960/61 operation and normal maintenance of £21,061 Control and Fire Services £21,180 the Airport, the cost of staffing Jurby 11,798 Telecommunication Services 11,805 aerodrome for diversional operations 4.979 Meteorological Services 4,600 and the administration of the Board, is 12,675 Electrical, Transport and Engineering Services 11,370 £36,540, a decrease of £6,768 on the 15.425 General and Airfield Main- approved grant for the current year. tenance 17,280 Secondly, loan charges remain the same 6.650 Traffic Services 6.570 at £9,178.. Thirdly, capital expenditure, 6,769 Administration 6,250 apart from the proposed runway deve- 6,500 Lighting, Heating, Insurance lopment, amounts to £2,500, the same and Rates 6,200 as in the current year. Fourthly, the 9,178 Loan Charges 9.178 amount required for rebates on landing £94,433 fees is £17,600, an increase of £2,900 on £95,026 the current year. The total amount

Isle of Man Airports Board-Estimates of £156,818. 532 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960 covered by those four items is £65,818, a eni a. is iuciudeci in the provi- decrease of £3,868 on the grant for the sional grant of £12,500, one of the items current year, that is to say, £69,686. On in a previous resolution as it is most the operation of the Airport, the de- important that the building is pro- crease is due mainly to increased in- ceeded with immediately. I would, come, which increase we estimate at once again, like to express our thanks to £6,175, and to savings in expenditure the chairman and member of the Local of £593. We are faced with increased Government Board for the services of expenditure in certain directions, due their Chief Fire Officer, in training our to the advent of larger and faster air- staff up to a high standard of efficiency. craft and changes in requirements con- At a previous sitting I informed the sequent upon this development. Under Court that we are having installed next international civil aviation regulations, month the first of the latest design of the number of staff and the amount and instrument landing system complete type of equipment required for fire and with glide path element, which will con- rescue services, varies according to the siderably improve the regularity of number and size of the aircraft operat- operations under adverse weather condi- ing into the airport. The further in- tions. This installation will involve crease in services and the coming opera- additional expenditure on telephones, tion of 63-seat Viscounts this year, in- electricity supply, etc., but in spite of creases the number of staff and amount this we have been able to keep our ex- of equipment required as from 1st April penditure approximately at the same next. Fortunately, we anticipated the level as that of last year. As regards requirement for fire and rescue equip- income, we estimate this will increase ment. We now have two of the latest by £6,175, mainly from landing fees, fire tenders designed specifically for rentals and passenger-handling services. aerodrome duties, and are at present but to offset this, rebates will increase having one of the older tenders re-built by about £2,900, giving a net increase by our own staff,. and equipped to carry in receipts of £3,275. On this occasion in accordance with the latest prac- last year I was asked whether we ought tice. The Airport being now up-graded not to consider ending the practice of to a higher category, consequent upon granting rebates on landing fees as they the introduction of the aforementioned do amount to a considerable sum and, larger aircraft, involves the employment of course, if continued, will continue to of two additional firemen, one per shift, increase proportionately as the traffic bringing the strength of each crew to increases. At the same time, our seven, in place of six as heretofore. At present scale of landing fees is the this point, may I explain that the item lowest ir; the British Isles, since we of £2,500 required for capital expendi- have made no increase in the rates, ture arises from the urgent need to have while other airports, particularly those all our fire and rescue vehicles housed operated by the Ministry of Aviation, in the emplaning area, and it involves have raised their rates considerably. building anew garage capable of hous- We have deliberately refrained from ing all the vehicles, comprising two fire doing so, in order to keep down fares tenders, one CO, tender, and two am- as much as possible. and the Court has bulances, one of which is a dual-purpose approved this policy in the past. How- vehicles equipped for mountain rescue. ever, in view of continually rising costs, This £2,500 was required immediately. my Board is of opinion that the rates His Excellency was asked if he would must be reviewed in the near future. make the grant and he was good enough and we have notified all the operating to do so. All of those vehicles, by the companies that we wish to discuss the way, are equipped with two-way radio. whole question of landing fees and I would explain at this point that the rebates with them in the near future.

isle of Man Anports Board--Estimates of £156,818. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960 533

As fares for the coming season are end by 5a0 feet, and widening by 30 already fixed, no change is proposed feet on either side, giving a runway of until after the season is over. Now 4.118 feet in length and 150 feet in with regard to traffic prospects for the width, to make it acceptable for the 1960 season. In presenting the esti- operation of the larger Viscount air- mates in previous years, I have given craft, and also to improve landing facili- the Court a forecast as near as possible, ties for other types of aircraft. We are of the prospects of traffic by air for the most anxious to maintain a high degree coming summer, but before dealing with of regularity in conditions of adverse next summer, I would like to say that weather, and it is absolutely necessary the traffic during the past winter has to provide this alternative runway to been very good indeed, and is, in fact, cater for Viscounts particularly, since 24 per cent, better than the previous these aircraft could not operate in and highest return. The coming summer out of Jurby Aerodrome owing to the will see, for the first time, direct short runways, and in the event of a scheduled services from Plymouth, high crosswind on the instrument Bristol and Cardiff, operated by Dan runway, the aircraft would be unable Air Ltd., and I must say that my Board to land on the Island at all, and would are very impressed by the way in which have to return to the mainland, a most this company are organising and adver- undesirable eventuality, as I think the tising these new services. I would also Court will agree. At this point, I would pay tribute to the way in which the say that this scheme may well be, as far Tourist Board are assisting the com- as we can see, in the light of constantly pany in their new venture, and I can changing requirements, the last big say that the bookings are already very development scheme for the Airport. It promising. Dan-Air have already laid will always be necessary, of course, to on a large number of special services for keep on improving Airport facilities, but the Rotary Conference, and for the T.T. I cannot foresee at the moment any Races, in addition to their scheduled further big runway development being services. Reports from all the airline necessary. Now with regard to the operators on advanced bookings are capital cost of the Airport,. a question excellent, and if they continue to come I have been asked on several occasions in during the next few weeks in the is "What has been the total capital cost same way, I feel that we will equal, if of Ronaldsway Airport to the Isle of not better, our record arrivals of 99,344 Man?" The answer is that the total in 1957. It may be of interest to note capital cost to the Island of the Airport that on some of the smaller routes book- as it stands at present, including the ings are up by as much as 80 to 110 land and buildings, runways, perimeter per cent. on last year, whilst on the tracks and roads, electrical and engi- main routes they are up between 10 neering installations, vehicles, etc., is and 30 per cent. I come next to the just over half a million pounds and with runway development, and the vote of the scheme of development now pro- £91,000 required for the development of posed, the total will be, in round figures, runway 22/04, which lies in a north- £600,000. It is estimated that to build east/south-west direction. Originally the Airport from scratch, to its present this runway was 2,938 feet long, and standard, would cost anything from four recently the Board carried out the to five million pounds. Reverting to the maximum extension possible at the proposed development of this runway, north-east end, i.e., 600 feet, to give it the scheme will employ one hundred the present length of 3,538 feet. It is and ten men and ten lorries with their still only ninety feet wide—the original drivers for twenty-six weeks, and will width. The proposed scheme is for be carried out as far as possible by further lengthening at the south-west mechanical means. Of the total of

Isle of Man Airports Board—Estimates of £156,818. 534 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960

£47.250 for materials. £30,050 will be perturbs me. As the years go by our for materials manufactured and sup- investment in Ronaldsway is increasing plied in the Island, thus creating further and the cost of maintaining the Airport employment on the Island. Of the re- is increasing inevitably as well, but the maining £17,200 for materials imported, fact remains that the service provided these will be supplied mainly by local for the Manx travelling public is agents. I have previously stated in this deteriorating. I say that with the know- Court in answer to questions, that when ledge that in the not too distant future this runway is completed that it will be it will not be possible to enjoy a direct necessary to apply some form of control flight from London to the Isle of Man, on the Castletown- road nor will it be possible to take off in the whilst this runway is in use. The Isle of Man at 3-10 in the afternoon. As Board have had extensive consultation planes get bigger the service gets less with experts from the Ministry of Aviation and Air Ministry Works and of less value to the Manx people. Department and these experts agree Can the chairman give us an assurance that there is no easy or cheap alterna- that the extremely bad service being tive to road control. We investigated operated by B.E.A. will not be further the possibility of lowering the road and reduced after representations have been bridging over it, but found that the cost made on the part of the Airports Board? was prohibitive, amounting in fact to a We are told on one hand that the advent sum equal to the total capital cost of of these larger, faster aircraft will the whole Airport. It is not anticipated, necessitate more staff and more equip- judging by records of operation in the ment to handle them, and the result is past, and of the weather over a number fewer people will travel from the Isle of years, that the total interference with of Man and benefit from these develop- road traffic will be serious, and it is a ments. The chairman has very wisely problem which has confronted a number indicated that his Board are alive to the of airports in Great Britain, particularly fact that rebates—the whole question Prestwick and Manchester, while Jersey of rebates and landing fees—does need has been obliged to build a new road at examination, and I think our Airports enormous cost to enable their main Board and our Harbours Board would runway to be lengthened. We hope to be well advised to follow the lead of the have a conference with the Highway British Transport Commission, and Board in the near future on this matter, make their particular developments and we are hopeful that a simple system stand on their own feet as far as landing of traffic lights operated from control fees and rebates and so on are con- will solve the problem. I would like to cerned. I think the airports and har- emphasise, Your Excellency,, that with- bours of the Isle of Man should be able out some form of control of traffic on to stand on their own feet without con- this road it would be utterly useless to stant Government subsidy to keep them consider extending the runway. The running. There is one other point, sir. extended runway could not be used for The chairman of the Board says that as any type of traffic without some control far as he can see the provision of this of the road traffic. That is all I have to new runway will mean the end of say, Your Excellency, and if hon. development at Ronaldsway. We have members have any questions I hope I been caught up in the development of will be able to answer them. larger and faster aircraft over the years. Mr Farrant: Your Excellency, I beg It is a policy of development thrust on to second and reserve my remarks. us from the outside and of necessity we have had to build larger runways to Mr Kerruish: Your Excellency, I have handle these aircraft. Is he suggesting one brief comment to make on the this development has ceased and we resolution—on a matter that rather have reached the top as far as internal

Isle of Man Airports Board—Estimates of £.156,818. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960 535

development is concerned; that this 63- which may be adopted by B.E.A. as suit- seater aircraft will mean the end of able for continental services and there- that, and then we may have hovercraft after used here, and we may find our- or Rotodyne or something like that. If selvesin the position that after spending he is absolutely certain it is the end of £600,000 on the Airport it would be this development would it not be con- quite unsuitable for the type of aircraft sidered wiser to spend the money for which B.E.A. intend using. There is one this particular development at Jurby other matter, a parochial type of matter where you have accommodation to to which I wish to refer. That is the handle any type of aircraft? point the Airports Board make about having to control traffic on the road Mr Simcocks: Your Excellency, have between Castletown and Derbyhaven in we not reached the stage where we are order to have this longer and wider at the end of our folly in providing ser- runway. I would like to suggest that vices for aircraft operators? I would what is good for the Castletown- not criticise B.E.A. to the extent of the Derbyhaven road is not altogether im- last speaker, for I am bound to say that possible for the Balthane road. We they have done a great deal to provide have been told on several occasions that not so much a good service as a certain it is impossible to depend on traffic service, probably a great deal better control of traffic using the Balthane than private operators would provide road to . Yet here we have them. But,. unfortunately, we are in- the( Airports Board saying that such volved with a type of Corporation such control is necessary on the Castletown- as B.E.A. Had there been two corpora- Derbyhaven road for aircraft to use this tions created in the United Kingdom, runway. It is true it is not the main one to deal with internal services and one for external services, we might be runway. At the same time it i in the well served by the corporation with air- south-east to the south-west direction craft specially designed for the short- and in line of the prevailing wind and haul jobs of internal air services. Un- we can expect a reasonable proportion fortunately, we are provided with ser- of traffic to use it. If that runway is to vices by a corporation which has not be used and people can use the road just internal services to deal with, but with the control of traffic lights the with the services to the whole of Europe same arrangement should be possible as well. They are equipped with air- with goodwill to enable the Parish of craft suitable for trips to Olso, Moscow to have access to the sea and and Warsaw, and other comparatively Derbyhaven. long distances, and undoubtedly they wish to have the same type of aircraft Mr Colebourn: Your Excellency, I used throughout their services. These would like to congratulate the chairman aircraft which are suitable for services of the Board on the estimates put before to Moscow may not be suitable for us to-day. I think they bear favourable the London-Ronaldsway services. I comparison with those of any other civil suggest they are not. That is one of our airport in the United Kingdom, but I many troubles, being served by aircraft do not see how the chairman justifies entirely unsuitable for the services an expenditure of £91,000 on the deve- required. This is one of the difficulties lopment of runway 22/04. He tells us it our Airports Board has to contend with must be widened and lengthened to a and one which is probably not yet distance of 4,180 feet. But I would like finished with. The chairman says they to ask him if the Viscount Mark II re- are finished with development works, quire 5,200 feet with a full pay load, but we should bear in mind there is an and that this runway can only be used aircraft called the Vanguard, which ca17- when there is a wind in excess of 18 ries twice as many passengers and knots per hour--

Isle of Man Airports Board—Estimates of £156,818. 536 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960

Mr Nicholls: What type of Viscount forty persons against the Viscount's 63. did you say? I think they would be better for our short journeys. I think the time has Mr Colebourn: The one you are talk- come, and indeed passed, when this ing about—the 63-seater aircraft. Whilst Court should instruct the Isle of Man fundamentally the Airport must be built Airports Board to impress upon B.E.A. to accommodate the aircraft, a time how important it is to any economy such must come when some reconciliation as ours that aircraft should be operated must be made between the physical to suit the airport rather than that the requirements of both aircraft and avail- airport should be designed to fit an able resources on the ground. Pre- aeroplane that is entirely unsitable to sumably from the point of view of the the service required. It should be operator of an airline, the faster the remembered that although B.E.A. are machines he uses, the more economi- giving us this luxuriously appointed air- cally he can operate his airline. Fast craft, capable of carrying 63 passengers aircraft make more journeys in a given at 350 m.p.h. in very comfortable seats time and it would seem to me that this they would in fact be reducing the is about the only justification for fast aircraft. Even so, on short hauls such number of schedule flights and that is, as encountered within the British Isles, I think, a very important matter. They it would seem that this saving would say very airily that there will be a not be high. But let us consider who is shadow service, but my experience of saving money by employing Viscounts shadow services is that there is more in the case of the Isle of Man services. shadow than substance about them. I Not the holiday-maker, because the fare cannot see in the height of the season is no cheaper by this aircraft, and is one of these 63-seater Viscounts taking actually dearer when compared with off from Speke with 15 or a dozen that of private operators. It is not the people off-loaded. I cannot see B.E.A. Isle of Man Government, because the putting a 63-seater Viscount on for that. Airport estimates have been increased I do not think this is a right step in the by £91,000 to accommodate Viscounts. interests of our holiday traffic. I would What it really amounts to is that B.E.A. say quite seriously that the time has have decreed that Viscounts will be come if indeed it is not past when this used in the interests of their doubtful Court should consider the establishment internal economy, and we are obliged of a national air service. I feel very to pay up and smile! Where is the end strongly on that. There is already on to the ramifications of Ronaldsway? the drawing boards by one aircraft When it finally occupies a large propor- manufacturer, an aircraft which would tion of the South of the Island the be suitable for the short haul we are whole runway system could become out- interested in. I will carry 120 people dated overnight by the introduction of at 100 m.p.h., has a fixed undercarriage newer types of aircraft designed to com- and can land in half the length of a bine high speed, comfort and short Dakota runway. It is my information landing and take-off distances. There that private enterprise is purchasing are other types of high-efficiency air- these aircraft. We have got to have craft using the same Rolls-Royce turbo- this sort of awareness in our thinking prop engine, which is the engine fitted on air travel. We are about 20 minutes in Viscounts, and which are eminently away from Liverpool—we are a suburb suitable for short-haul operation from of Liverpool—and the time may well airports with restricted runways. I come where we have people living in refer in particular to the Friendship, the South of the Island and going to which Aer Lingus use, and the Herald, work at Merseyside by plane in the both have the same speed as the new morning and coming back at night or Viscount and their loading is about going to work there for five days and

Isle of Man Airports Board—Estimates of £156,818. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960 537 coming back at the week-end. We have we are in the same position. I feel we got to think of that and also the 'prob- should consider very carefully whether lem of unemployment with which we are in view of the widespread activities of going to be faced in two or three years the B.E.A. services—the member for time. Because of the school-leaving and Rushen said from Warsaw to other national service we are going to have a capitals of Europe big unemployment problem. It could be Mr Kaneen: From Warsaw to Castle- that we could possibly make some town. arrangements with transport companies in England to take men to factories for Mr Bolton: I think in view of the amount of work we really require from a five-day week and let them come back B.E.A. we could be as well served by to the Island for week-ends. I do not a taxi service from the Island to the think we can afford to leave it to out- main airports. We could very well side operators like B.E.A. The Island is operate our own service from Ronalds- not in any position to subsidise B.E.A., way to Manchester, Renfrew and Nor- which is what we are doing. If we have thern Ireland instead of being at the got £21,000 to spend we might as well mercy of people who change their air- spend it on the Steam Packet or the craft from time to time and impose Harbour Board. their aircraft on us. With regard to this additional runway, I was very pleased Mr Bolton: I realise that from time to to hear the hon. member say that he time members of the Airports Board are could foresee no other major develop- involved in considerable arguments with ment, but I am very much afraid that the operators of airlines. I know the the hon. member, in this matter, is just difficulties under which they work and I as blind as the rest of us. No one can hope what I have to say now will not foresee what the developments may be be considered as criticism but rather in in five or ten years, no more than any- supporting them in that if nothing is one could see what was happening to- said in Tynwald and no comments are day five or ten years ago. The other made on the estimates before us then matter on which I would like to com- B.E.A. may quite well be in a position ment is the question of the runway. Is to say to the Airports Board, "But Tyn- the whole cost involved included in the wald Court accepts it." Some comment estimated £91,000? We know arrange- should be made on these matters in ments are to be made so that Derby- Tynwald so that the Airports Board is haven is not completely encircled and backed up in their relationship with that work will be done by the Highway B.E.A. I feel that many years ago—I Board. Does the £91,000 include the have said this before and it is perhaps whole of the expenses involved in the not a matter on which we can do much runway or simply the laying down of at the moment—that we sold our birth- the runway itself? It has been sug- right when we agreed to the application gested that traffic lights may be neces- of the Civil Aviation Act in the Isle of sary on that road, but some of us feel Man. As a result we are bound to that more than that will be necessary accept the services of B.E.A. unless we and considerable alterations will have take some drastic steps to alter it. We to be made to ensure the safety of the are getting into the position that the public and proper access to Derby- railways might have been in if they had haven. Does the £91,000 cover the to alter stations every time a new entire cost? engine was invented. As soon as an air- craft is made a little bigger or a little Mr A. C. Teare: Purely for informa- faster the whole airport has got to be tion, may I ask the chairman what the altered. Recently a matter which item "rentals" comprises. Does it in- caused considerable argument in Liver- clude the rent of the bar at Ronaldsway pool was the development of Speke and as distinct from the restaurant?

Isle of Man Airports Board—Estimates of £156,818, 538 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960

Lt.-Cdr. Quine: I wish to support the Mr Nicholls: I did not say anything of resolution and particularly the widening the sort. and lengthening of the runway. We have to remember that the Island is not Mr Corkhill: You did not say it.. but a terminal airport at all. It is like a someone did. I think we should have wayside station on a main line. The second thoughts before voting for this. B.E.A. run magnificent aircraft from London to Liverpool and so on and the Mr Radcliffe: I am somewhat dis- Island is only a port of call. They go on appointed that the chairman of the to Ireland, Prestwick and Glasgow. Board, in his endeavours to look into They are running an excellent service. the future with regard to the problem With regard to the runway, I think there of bigger aircraft made no reference to are three qualified pilots in the Court— vertical take-off and helicopters. We Mr Quayle, the member for , Mr are told it cannot be done, but it will Colebourn and modesty prevents me be done and the Island will be left from mentioning the third. (Laughter.) tagging behind if we allow ourselves to The length of the runway is for take-off. remain at the convenience of B.E.A. I Landing to-day with flaps and air- am sure vertical take-off aircraft are brakes is comparatively slow, even for going to come. In the meantime, we the biggest aircraft. For night flying I would be better served by short-haul am glad to see the width is to be aircraft. The types being used now are increased to 150 ft. That is going to be getting so big that they will in the very important in night landing. We future not be used to fly from industrial will have to go into night flying to the areas to places like the Island but will Island and an extension of the lighting be for international flights only. I am may be required. am very pleased to suggesting that the chairman of the see that the Board is taking this matter Board has not told us anything as to in hand. To say we cannot see five what he thinks of short-haul and verti- years ahead is ridiculous. When a cal take-off aircraft which I think he machine is put on a drawing board for must consider because he has put for- the first time it is three to five years ward a plan to spend £91,000 to get before it comes into service. There are larger and faster aircraft when the main some people who can see ahead and that runway cannot be used. I have just knowledge should be available to the made a note about these large Viscount Airports Board and they will know aircraft. When it is bad weather in the where to get it. Isle of Man they say we have to have this runway to land and take off. What Mr Corkhill: I feel very concerned provision is being made that these air- about this expenditure. After all, the craft can use Liverpool or Manchester, Island should be dealt with to some and so on? If they come in all weathers extent on its area and necessity. It then perhaps we should provide the makes me feel that the Steam Packet means for them to land and take off, but Company has just as much right to ask we read of international flights being for a dock for a Cunard liner. Someone closed down because the weather in the said that surely we should be able to airports at Manchester and Liverpool is see five years ahead. There is a monu- bad, and we are near to them. But in ment on Snaefell of what we see five Manchester and Liverpool, where the years ahead. I think we should really weather is so bad that the planes are be satisfied before this expenditure is grounded they are not extending run- accepted that there is a necessity for it. ways. Are we, at the cost of many It is all right saying that planes can be thousands of pounds going to provide pulled up in this, that or the other, but accommodation to accommodate planes we are told that this runway will fall on a very few days in the year. On below the required length. the average our weather is good and if

Isle of Man Airports Board—Estimates of £,156,818, TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960 539 we cannot guarantee that planes can Mr Quayle: Why not let us go back to land every day of the year neither can cradles. The hon. member for any other airport and it is no use paying said that we were a bye-way. How true out vast sums of money for one or two that is: we are being used as a con- days in the year. When we talk about venience, en route to Belfast, and we the future I ask the Airports Board not can never be an international airport to lag behind and to go ahead, but we because there are airports in a better must get an airline with aircraft suit- position such as Shannon and Prestwick. able to our needs and we know the What we should do is set up a commit- present ones are not suitable to our tee to look at the question from a sen- needs. The Channel Islands are not sible viewpoint and though I am not going in for this kind of extension and an expert on aircraft costings, I think their traffic has trebled. Are they ex- we should find out if possibly we could tending their runways? get a small fleet of our own. I do not presume to tell the Airports Board how Members: Yes. to run their business, but the position Mr Radcliffe: I would like to know could be examined and, to test the con- definitely because their traffic is cer- siderable feeling in the Court, I would like to move that the item of £91,000 tainly not behind ours. to develop runway 22/04 be deleted from Mr Quayle: As the third member of the estimate so that the idea of a small the Tynwald Union of Skypilots- fleet can be examined by the Court. (laughter)—I have some knowledge of everything and probably not so outdated Mr Edward Callister: Your Excel- lency, we would be failing in our duty as •the other two members. 'Whilst I to the Airports Board if we did not say have every respect in the main for the that it performs a useful function but at members of the Airports Board, as a the same time I feel we need some re- member of the Tourist Board I have thinking. A case has been made out certain misgivings as to whether or not against the expenditure of £91,000 we have been behind the times in the which we do not know will be of any past and whether it is not too late to value to us in five or ten years time. consider having a private fleet. I am What does interest me is that this referring to the opinion mooted since Court is gradually becoming more State 1950, and referred to by the hon. minded. They are becoming politically member for Castletown in a speech on conscious that it is necessary to have which I must congratulate him, that nationalisation of transport and I look the fixed undercarriage type of aircraft forward to the day when the whole of should have been used—the kind shown the Court will become an anxious as on independent television in the "Flying some of the members to-day that we Doctor" which can come down on should have our own air transport and ploughed fields and odd patches and it that the whole of the transport—sea, air does not need the wilderness of Ronalds- and land—should be centralised, and way. nationalised, particularly in this small Island. It would lead to efficiency and Mr Callister: That's on television. economy and I believe we could adapt Mr Quayle: Yes, on television. But I the services between ourselves and the should say that the type of aircraft I adjacent islands. am talking about would carry ten passengers. It would be a usefully Mr McFee: Your Excellency, I think sized aircraft. that one of the most encouraging parts of the hon. member's speech was the Deemster Kneale: Let us go back to fact that bookings were up 80 to 100 per cradles. cent, on the smaller lines and between

Isle of Man Airports Board—Estimates of £156,818, 540 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960

10 and 20 per cent, up on the principal methods you have compelled Malew lines and that is encouraging for the residents, before they can get to their Isle of Man for this summer, parti- homes to go through a foreign town. cularly as it would suggest that it is Castletown — (laughter) — and parti- based on Sunday closing. (Laughter.) cularly so with new residents who have I would like to ask the hon. member. come to Derbyhaven and because they when he mentioned the subject of land- may confuse their reds and their greens ing fees and rebates, will this increase it becomes disastrous for some of our affect fares and what is the effect of leading citizens, who will be subject to rebates on landing fees on the fares. more danger on the road than is neces- There has been a lot of talk on the sary. development of the runway and the expenditure of £91,000. I understand Mr Nivison: Your Excellency, I wish that this scheme was before Tynwald to support the resolution, particularly last year, but because there was a with reference to the extension and the division of opinion between members of widening of the runway. Many points the Executive Council and the Board of view have been expressed. but I feel this whole scheme was dropped for last sure that the other side of the picture year. I want to know if the difficulties must be put. We know that the operat- have been resolved. Have they got ing companies ran fleets of Rapides. together and do you intend to let this Dominies and De Havilland aircraft and out on private contract or is it your then they graduated to the Dakota,. the intention to do it on direct employment DC3, which are now considerably over methods. You have also said that by 20 years old and they have operated fully mechanical methods, ten lorries successfully on many of these isles. We and I do not know how many men, that know it is the policy of B.E.A. to go in this job would last for 26 weeks. Will for a more modern and more modern you tell us, if the job is not fully aircraft, aircraft with a pressure cabin mechanised, if you carry it out as you and one in which our visitors delight to intended to do last year with direct travel in. Make no mistake about that. labour yourselves and employ men They say "We are going in a Viscount" rather than be fully mechanised, would and not the older aircraft where when you tell us whether it would be more you get out your ears are singing. costly and what would be the relative People like travelling in a Vis- factor with regard to the employment of count and people are looking for- men. ward to the fact that they will be able to come from London and Manchester Mr Bolton: It's in the report. and other places to the Isle of Man in a Viscount. Let us say this in all fairness Mr McFee: One hundred and ten men. to those who think we should have a Mr Bolton: One hundred and ten men fleet of smaller aircraft or aircraft re- and ten lorries for 20 weeks. quiring a shorter run or those with a fixed undercarriage. I think members Mr McFee: How many more men will have travelled in the fixed under- would be employed if it was not fully carriage type and when it came to being mechanised and what would be the given a piece of cotton-wool you wanted result in regard to cost. There is the whole pack with some of the air- another question in regard to the inter- craft having a fixed undercarriage. ference with the Derbyhaven road. I There were some dreadful aircraft and would remind you and the Board that it was no fun travelling in such aircraft. you have practically isolated Derby- Mr Bolton: It has nothing to do with haven. You have closed one road com- fixed undercarriage. pletely and now you are interfering with the only road left through to Derby- Mr Nivison: No, the noise was due to haven and because of your closure that type of aircraft, but let us not dwell

Isle of Man Airports Board—Estimates of £156,818. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960 541 on that point. There are a large number airline. But having seen, as a member of the travelling public using Viscount of the Airports Board, the service which aircraft. It it is to be an established B.E.A. offered, I decided that the best service then we in the Isle of Man thing was to take B.E.A. and forget should partake in those services, but we about having a national airline. Now I are saying we are not going to move the am no longer a member of the Airports runway if we cannot take the aircraft. Board, and I am once again in a position We cannot wait until the drawing-board to consider the provision of a national airline. If we were to provide such a aircraft is operating. We cannot wait line, we must not quibble over £91,000. until these taxis or these helicopters are If we were to try and provide the ser- in service. Our services must go on and vice which B.E.A. provide it would cost we must be prepared for development us a great deal more than that. and I welcome the enterprise of the Airports Board in extending runways Members: Millions. to meet the requirements of that de- lightful aircraft the Viscount and I hope Mr Irving: I know that from the very they will also develop in other direc- beginning the Board wanted to get the tions, but we cannot afford to miss the Viscount, but in having the Viscount Viscount services. I hope it will be—I there are one or two disadvantages. In am sure it will be—a great success. changing from the Pio/lairs—which are Now mention has been made of the fact museum pieces and the sooner we got that we are getting bigger aircraft but rid of them the better—there was •one fewer services. How many members of main disadvantage. The Viscount, too, this Court have travelled in the winter is getting out of date when we compare months, either on business or for private it with the Caravelle, for example. But reasons, and found that there are only the one main disadvantage of the Vis- a few people travelling in these aircraft? count is that it requires the filling of 63 We must be fair. We cannot expect seats at one time. The first result of them to run empty all the time. Whether that can be seen in the London—Isle of they are a private enterprise company Man service. It is no longer a direct or a corporation, they cannot be ex- service without any stops. It will stop pected to run empty planes. I hear in Manchester for half-an-hour, and praise from visitors for the people who the whole journey will take over two operate the services and for the atten- hours. The Channel Islands can adver- dants. These people are pleased with tise short-distance air trips from the service that is offered to them. I London, but our time—even with the only wish I could hear such praise from Viscount—is two hours and five those people who travel by train or boat, minutes. I believe there are people who but I am afraid it is not in evidence. I don't like landing and taking off, and think we should grab at this Viscount these people will be put off by landing service, and I would say, sir, that I and taking off in Manchester. hope •the time will not be far away Mr Stephen: What is wrong with when we can meet demands during Manchester? peak periods, during that six weeks in the summer months. I hope the Court Mr Irving: I am not suggesting that will have no hesitation in supporting the there is anything wrong with Man- Airports Board vote, and in saying chester, but I am suggesting that there "Well done" to the members of the are people who don't want to break Board. their journey from London at Man- chester—landing and then taking off Mr Irving: Before I was a member of again. I presume that this time-table the Airports Board,, sir, I was quite sent out by the Tourist Board is a pre- sure in my own mind that the answer liminary time-table and that there will to our problems was to have a national be a firm table to follow. Can the 141. Isle of Man Airports Board—Estimates of £156,818, 542 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960 chairman tell us if there will be a fur- would put money into such a venture? ther time-table? If so, why are we It is not commonsense. You have a dealing with this preliminary time-table season of a few weeks' traffic in the so late in the year? With regard to the summer-time and practically no traffic runways, I think maybe here the hon. in the winter. member might be able tO strengthen his case. In the first place I can recall that Mr Stephen: We could not buy one the main instrument runway was aeroplane! widened from 90ft. to 150ft. to enable The Speaker: We have been talking the Viscounts to operate to the Island about flying this afternoon, Your Excel- in higher cross-winds. I believe that lency, but we, as politicians, have got to resulted in an increase from 98 to 99 keep our feet on the ground, otherwise per cent. of the time. It was a very we may give the impression that small increase. Now we have this we are going to give consideration to runway 22-04 being lengthened for the any old scheme that comes along. Viscount, presumably to be used when (Laughter.) We must have a measure there is a high crosswind on the main instrument runway. Why it is neces- of confidence in the Board that we our- selves appointed. I understand that sary to widen this runway? Could not there is a tendency for a still larger air- the main instrument runway be used? craft, the Vanguard. If B.E.A. decide to I notice it is being done on the advice of the Ministry of Aviation. Could it use these machines for Island traffic the be that we will be told that unless run- Airport at Ronalds,way may not be in a ways are of certain length and width position to deal with it, and the Board they may not be used by Viscounts? may have to consider—in the interests Could the chairman tell us that? of the Island—the Airport in the north of the Island. I think they will have The Speaker: I hope the Court is to keep that point in mind. going to accept this vote. I have an- Mr J. M. Cain: In view of the state- xieties like the other members who have ment made this afternoon about this spoken. I share entirely the sentiments £91,000 which it is proposed to spend of the hon. member for Garff, who ex- in catering for the needs for some pressed disappointment at this year's 100,000 visitors, is the first priority to time-table. But in considering this we spend £91,000 for that purpose or spend have to remember that we have £210,000 on the Marine Drive? Let us appointed a Board, and we know take first things first and ask ourselves from personal experience that that which we are going to support for the Board has had this very problem under good of the Island. consideration for a considerable time. They must be au fait with the Mr Kaneen: It is very nice to hear the position very much better than members chairman state that there has been a of this Court who are not members of percentage increase in bookings for this the Airports Board. Time and time season, but I hope that will not dis- again they have met the authorities in courage people from coming by sea. I London and elsewhere and have said am going to support this vote, sir, and they are not at all satisfied with what whether or not we have helicopters or they have so far been able to obtain. the Fairey Rolodyne, I think Ronalds- What is the alternative? We must way will still play it part from a haulage have an airport and regular and and freightage point of view. I wonder recognised services. Only one alterna- if the Airports Board are keeping tive has been suggested here this after- abreast of the latest scientific aids. Air- noon, and that is the establishment of craft can now be talked down without a fleet of our own. Now I ask you, is the aid of any human hand—they can there any member in this Court who now land in fog. Under this system,

Isle of Man Airports Board—Estimates of £156,818, TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960 543 lines have to be laid along the runway. the latest type Of surveillance radar at and I wonder when you lay this new Ronaldsway, similar to that on the runway, if you are going to make any Continent. provision for that sort of thing? I think Members: Vote, vote. we should take a very active interest, perhaps in subsidising another line, to Deemster Kneale: There is one point bring to the Island the type of service which I think I ought to deal with from which is given by helicopters or the the legal aspect. This idea of an Isle of Fairey Rotodyne—a service which is so Man air service is not new at all. We in evidence on the -Continent at the went on our hands and knees over six- moment. You can travel from Rotter- teen years ago and we could not get any dam or Brussels and places like that, backing, so there is nothing new in the by helicopter taxi, and that is the type idea. If you are going to operate you cannot take the cream and leave B.E.A. of thing I thing we should try and to run the other services, and for the develop. I wonder if the Airports Board scheduled services you must get a might take a more active interest in that licence. At the present time B.E.A. line of thought. have these scheduled services, and they are prepared under certain circum- Mr Kelly: I would like to raise a point stances to permit subsidiary companies which was raised some years ago when to undertake the other services if you the chairman promised me that he can get financial backing. Jersey Air would go into the further development Lines operate splendidly,. but they are of air services, and its effect on the subsidiary to B.E.A. and if we had had North of the Island. Could he now give people with the courage of pioneers of me, and the Court some indication of the Jersey Air Lines we could have had our possible development of internal air own services now. But, as the hon. services, of the part helicopters may member for Middle has suggested, to play in connection with the north of the enable us to operate without Viscounts Island, and in the summer time, when a is putting back the clock. Cumberland-North of the Island service Mr Quayle: I never said that. may come into being. We expect that the Board would be very interested in Deemster Kneale: You suggested ex- ploring) the possibility of having our such a venture and I would like the own airline. That is what you said. chairman to give us some indication of what is taking place along those lines. Mr Quayle: Not in your words. All will agree that, from what we have Deemster Kneale: It is putting back seen on television alone, there have been the clock. I am satisfied that the expen- enormous improvements in helicopter diture of the £91,000 is absolutely essen- services; for instance, the Channel tial. Islands are to have services in the forth- coming season. Might the Isle of Man Mr Bolton: His Honour the Deemster have some sort of similar benefit? I am has just said that we cannot do anything going to support the vote to-day because because of the rules of B.E.A.; in other I think it is a development on the right words, we sold our birthright when we lines and I agree with the hon. member agreed to come under the Ministry of for Douglas East that there ought to be Civil Aviation because B.E.A. rights development of other services. I would are only secured through that Ministry. also like to ask the chairman about the I have wondered whether we might pos- electronics aid service at Ronaldsway. sibly consider the possibility of contract- Does he consider it satisfactory, because ing out of the Civil Aviation Act. It is there do seem to have been many diver- not a question of flying in the face of sions to the north of the Island recently. Providence; it is a fact that we are There is one other question. Have they bound by our own actions.

Isle of Man Airports Board—Estimates of £156,818, 544 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960

Mr Quayle: May I ask a question Your ferred to vibration, noise and so on, and Excellency. I would like to ask the we know they referred to the Bristol. It chairman of the Board for the numbers has been proved that the passengers of passengers carried by B.E.A. last year dislike the Bristols, so much so that and for the numbers carried by other Silver City Airways have removed operators. them from the Isle of Man Services. Members: "Tea, tea" and "Vote. vote." They were going to buy Dakotas,. but they are still saddled with two or three The Governor: I think we will listen to the reply before we adjourn for tea. Bristols because of the general shortage of aircraft. As to the question of Mr McFee: We shall be drier than B.E.A., whether we like it or not, we ever. are very much in the hands of the Cor- Mr Nicholls: Frankly, sir, I have so poration. It was brought about, as the many questions to answer I am afraid hon. member for Douglas West, Mr it will take some little time, but I am Bolton, had pointed out, by the adoption delighted to find so many members of of the Civil Aviation Act and the Air the Court so actively interested in the Corporation Act of 1949. work of the Airports Board. For the first time since I have been chairman, I Mr Stephen: Would the chairman ex- have had to turn over a page and start plain what was the alternative at that a fresh page because of the questions time. which have been asked. I will do my Mr Crellin: There was no alternative. best to answer the numerous questions, and boiled down they seem to be mainly Mr Nicholls: We had to do it. We a criticism of the B.E.A's proposed ser- were placed in the hands of the national vices. There are other points referring corporation. There are many faults in to the cost of the proposed runway but, that system and no one has been a more by and large, the principal criticism is severe critic of B.E.A. than I, but I am to the effect that some members think bound to say that at the present time, in that the services to be offered during spite of the disappointments expressed the coming season are not satisfactory. by the infrequency of the services, that Let me say that the Board are never we are getting a very much better deal satisfied, and I do not suppose we shall from B.E.A. than we ever did, and I am ever be satisfied. It is one continual glad to say that our relations with struggle to get more and better services B.E.A. were never better. Now, to refer not only with B.E.A. but with every to the London service, the only fear, other operating company, and to be and there was a distinct fear, that the perfectly fair—and I am sure the hon. Airports Board experienced, when senior member for Douglas South will B.E.A. were going to change from 32- be more than pleased to hear it (because seaters to 63-seater Viscounts; our last year he thought I was "sniping" at immediate reaction was "How are we B.E.A.) I think we are doing very well. going to cope with them" because it is a The chief criticism seems to be the cost tremendous jump from 32- to 63-seaters. of the large 63-seater aircraft which we It was obvious on the London service, are to get on our service. I think every- when it takes them all their time to fill one will agree that that type of aircraft a 32-seater aircraft at the present time, is desirable. They have tremendous it was going to be a much more difficult passenger appeal, as the hon. member proposition to fill a 63-seater, so it was for Middle has said. Viscounts do have decided to divert the aircraft via Man- tremendous passenger appeal, and chester, allocating so many seats from there are other aircraft which have pas- London to Manchester. It is obvious senger resistance. For instance. the that we must co-operate with the parent Bristol, which hon. members have not company in this matter. One hon. mem- mentioned by name, but they have re- ber pointed out we cannot expect more

Isle of Man Airports Board—Estimates of £156,818, TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960 545 from a nationalised concern, but no ser- type Herald crashed on its way to Farn- vice, whether nationalised, run by pri- borough, and there never has been a vate enterprise or national owned cor- Herald aircraft in commercial service. poration could be expected to operate The Irish Airline has a very fine type of aircraft costing between £350,000 and aircraft, as you may know, and we had £400,000 each to fly schedule services, the experience of inspecting it. We some with half a dozen passengers. It know the Argosy is the answer to our is completely out of the question and requirements, but we cannot tell B.E.A. that is a factor we have always had to that or anybody else. Someone said bear in mind when we have been carry- that a new type of aircraft was being ing out negotiations. , We cannot reason- built in France, but we cannot tell them ably expect a Viscount type of machine what to buy. They would very quickly to run with half a dozen passengers. tell us where to get off. The position is It is an established principle in all air- that we must accept the best type of air- lines that they must carry 65 per cent. craft they give us and develop our of their complement in order to break Airport to cater for these types. More- even. How can we even hope to do that over,. there is another body more power- with the bigger aircraft? Now with re- ful than B.E.A. to be considered, and gard to this question of an Island com- that is the British Ministry of Civil pany. I must admit, Your Excellency. Aviation, and still a higher body, the that every member of the Board many International Civil Aviation Organisa- years ago had the same idea. We used tion, called I.C.A.O., which lays down to say quite frankly that the answer to international regulations governing our requirements was an Island-based lengths and widths of runways- and so company operating out from the Isle of on, and these rules must be obeyed if Man—rather like spokes in a wheel, but the airport operator hopes to get an when you come down to earth it shows operating licence. If we do not carry a very different picture. As I have out the requirements of I.C.A.O. and the mentioned, a Viscount aircraft costs Ministry of Civil Aviation, we would be £350,000. If you bought three, how far refused a licence to operate as a civil would they take you in meeting our airport. While I am not trying to make needs? Nowhere. These three aircraft excuses, I must say that we are very would not cover our Liverpool to Man- much in the hands of other people in chester routes alone. An Island com- that respect. It would take too long, pany would need to face up to Your Excellency, to deal with most of £5,000,000 to £.10,000,000 capital outlay the , questions that have been asked. before getting anywhere. Now, I think Many of them have been repeated and another member did ask the question— the one answer covers most of them. I forget who it was—from where we The hon. member. Mr Radcliffe, brought were going to get the money, but I am up the hardy annual about vertical afraid I have not got answer to that. take-off, but we have gone into that over With regard to the criticisms of the and over again. We got the highest runway development. It comes back advice available in the British Isles on really to the same point. We are not this matter, from a company with first- masters in our own house so far as types class experience in operating helicop- of aircraft are concerned, and the re- ters. They are the only line which have quirements of these aircraft that operate operated helicopters. At Your Excel- into the Airport. We cannot say to the lency's request, we wrote to B.E.A., to operators, "You should buy Friendships, the Chief Executive himself, and asked the Argosy or Heralds." The hon. mem- him if he would give his considered ber for Castletown mentioned the opinion on the use of helicopters, and Friendship and the Herald, but the as Your Excellency knows the answer Herald never operated here. The proto- was that in his considered opinion there.

Isle of Man Airports Board—Estimates of £.156,818. g46 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960 was not the slightest chance of a Rota- request came from the Chief Operator, dyne or any other helicopter at Present B.E.A. We took the matter up then in service being used on the Isle of Man with the Ministry of Civil Aviation and route. The economics would kill such their highest experts came over to the a project stone dead. The economics of Island and we held several conferences helicopter operation are extremely high; with them, and also with the principal they are higher than those of the ortho- dox type of aircraft. Our aim is to try experts of B.E.A. These experts in- to keep the cost of aircraft down, so cluded a flight captain who resided in that fares will be within the reach of the Isle of Man for many years and who everybody. The only regular helicopter knows every blade of grass on Ronalds- services used at present are in America, way. As I say, we held several confer- and these are used particularly by busi- ences and this project is the outcome of ness tycoons who have expense accounts their advice. It is not the brainchild of and who can pay whatever the charge is. the Airports Board. It is straight from We could not operate that way in the the highest authority in the United Isle of Man. We want working men's Kingdom. On the question of the road fares. The hon. member says that the traffic control, before we would even Channel Islands are not spending money think of considering it, we also wrote to on runways, but that is not correct. I the Ministry of Civil Aviation Works wish I had brought the figures with me Department on this matter,. realising to report on a recent development in the they are the greatest authority on air- Channel Islands. The main extreme port construction, and they sent over runway at Jersey had to be extended their engineer. We considered a num- recently and I think it is costing them ber of suggestions and what I told the £480,000 to do that. Court to-day was the result of his advice. So I don't see that the Board Deemster Kneale: That is only one could have done any more than accept runway. the expert advice we were given and submit it to the Court for approval. I Mr Nicholls: Guernsey has never had don't know if there is anything else; if a hard runway until the present time I have forgotten anything and they are working on it now. I get copies of the Jersey newspapers contain- Mr Simcocks: The Balthane Road. ing these reports, and I know that to build one runway of the same length as Mr Nicholls: That is a detail, of theirs will be when extended is course. I knew the question was in the £480,000. Yet the hon. member says he mind of the hon. member. It is sug- does not think they are spending money. gested that if you are prepared to accept Mr Radcliffe: I said I was not certain. traffic control on the Castletown- I asked for information. Derbyhaven Road why not accept similar control on the Balthane Road. Mr Nicholls: Well, that is a fact—the But here you have two completely cost of one runway to them is almost different situations. The Balthane equal to the cost of the whole of Road as we knew it no longer exists. It Ronaldsway Airport. is now part and parcel of the Airport and, incidentally, the most important Deemster Kneale: And the terminal part. The old road has been buried buildings cost three times as much. under thousands of tons of rubble and Mr Nicholls: The hon. member for is under our main runway, whereas the Castletown questioned the justification Castletown-Derbyhaven road is outside for spending this money on the runway the boundary of the Airport and always at Ronaldsway, and I gathered from his will be. We have no intention of taking comments that he thought we were ill- it in. It means that when the runway advised. I say in the first instance the is extended the threshold will be close

Isle of Man Airports Board—Estimates of E156,818. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960 54/ to the road and the aircraft will be and of operating them and the cost of almost hedgehopping at the take-off, removing stone hedges bounding the which will be closed down. College paddock and the Airport. There Mr Stephen: He should be off by then. are two stone hedges which have to Mr Nicholls: But there is always the come down. We have had permission possibility of an emergency. I remem- from the College Trustees. They were ber the first Viscount landing at very amenable to the removal of the Ronaldsway. Several members, in- hedge and its replacement by a light cluding myself, were in the control fence. tower at the time. We went up there to Mr McFee: The hon. member has not see the landing, to see how much of the answered my query about whether the runway would be needed, and the pilot work was to be done by machinery— took just about half. Logically, the man fully mechanised—and if by doing it in in the street would say, "Why on earth this way there would be a saving on the do you want to extend it?" But regula- cost. Also what are the employment tions take into consideration the possi- figures. bility of an emergency caused by the failure of brakes, or any other kind of Mr Nicholls: I am sorry I forgot that. emergency. I am sorry to say that in I said, I think, that we would use the last twelve months there have been mechanical means as far as possible, but several instances of Viscounts having I also said that 110 men and ten lorries had brake failure and crashing into would be employed. fences because they did not have enough room in which to pull up. That hap- Mr McFee: Did you intend to employ pened in England and at several air- 110 men last year when you first intro- ports on the Continent. It only needs a duced the scheme and it was help up? broken oil pipe or something like that Mr Nicholls: That was only for ex- to cause such an emergency. That is tending the runway not for widening why the regulations demand such a and extending. length of runway. If 3,000 feet is required for the actual operation, you Mr McFee: If it was not fully tack on another two thousand feet for mechaniced would it employ more men? any emergency. As I say, there is no comparison between Balthane Road and Mr Nicholls: We have not considered the other road. Even if Balthane Road full mechanisation. How we work is was controlled by lights it would never that we divide the men up into three be re-opened to the public. squads. If you do all the excavating to begin with by mechanical means you Mr Quayle: My question, Mr Chair- would not need to employ any men. man—the comparative figures for B.E.A. apart from the drivers of the machinery. and other operators. Then you would have to do all the Mr Nicholls: I cannot give such figures pinching and tarmacing at once. Some just now,. but I believe that B.E.A. are people might think that was the best roughly about 50 per cent., that is way but we have found from experience taking all the independents and B.E.A., that the best way, having regard to but I would not like to swear to that keeping the Airport fully in operation, is without checking the figures. to do it in steps. One gang goes on with the excavating and the next gang does Mr Bolton: And my question—can the the pinching and then we follow up hon. member say if the Highway Board with the tarmacing. In that way the will have to spend any money because work proceeds in stages and the Airport of this development? is kept fully operational. If we had to Mr Nicholls: In reaching this figure do the whole lot at once it would not he we included the cost of traffic lights so easy and not cheaper.

Isle of Man Airports Board—Estimates of £156,818.

548 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960

Mr McFee: Doe's the Executive Coun- FORESTRY, MINES AND LANDS cil agree? BOARD—ESTIMATES OF £72,530 Mr Nicholls: All I know is that the The Governor: Item No. 14, Forestry, Executive Council agreed to the scheme Mines and Lands Board. I call on the The resolution was carried. hon. chairman. The Governor: The kettle is boiling, Mr Corkhill: I beg to move the follow- gentlemen. ing resolution:— The Court adjourned for tea and Whereas the Isle of Man Forestry, Mines resumed later. and Lands Board have submitted their Estimates of Expenditure. totalling £72.530, for the financial year ending March 31st. 1961, made up as follows:- ISLE OF MAN ASSESSMENT BOARD 1959/60 1960/61 —ESTIMATES OF £2,500 ORDINARY EXPENDITURE "A"—FOREMRY The Governor: We shall now resumc with item No. 13. Isle of Man Assess. £56.690 Salaries & Wages .. £58,630 ment Board, and I call on the hon. 2.855 Administration .... 2,915 6,650 Nursery and Forest chairman. Stock, Greencrop & fencing materials 5,760 Lt.-Cdr. Quine: Your Excellency, I beg 4.450 Maintenance of Veh- to move the following resolution:— icles & Machinery: Whereas the Isle of Man Assessment Boarc' Tools & Stores .. 4,300 have submitted their Estimates of Expendi- 1,350 Building & Road ture totalling £2,500, made up as follows, fol Repairs & Estate the purpose of carrying out approved polic: Maintenance, in- in the financial year ending March 31st, 1961 cluding Glens 3.650 1959/60 1960/6: £4,350 Salaries and Administration £4,36: 71.995 75.275 425 Valuers' Fees 42:: 12.380 Less Receipts from sale of Timber etc. 12,500 4,775 4.785 Less proportion of expenses £59,615 £62,775 recoverable from other 2,275 authorities 2,2F, -B--MINES AND LANDS £3.401 Salaries & Wages £3,201 £2,500 £2,503 569 Administration .... 564 400 Fencing Materials, Resolved.—that Tynwald requests His Ex- etc. 400 cellency to give consideration to the same in GO New Tools & Stores 75 framing his estimates for the year 1960/61. 312 Vehicle Maintenance Members: Vote, vote. Agreed. (Laugh- Transport & Haulage 155 ter.) 100 Building Repairs .. 100 250 Improvement of Lt.-Cdr. Quine: I am very pleased. Game Stock Eradication of Your Excellency, that Tynwald is of one Bracken 30 mind, but we must not assume that be- cause this is a small vote that it reflects 5.092 4,525 on the efficiency of the Board. I car 4,892 Less Receipts from assure you the Board is one of the most Royalties & Rents 4.595 efficient, or is the most highly efficien Board. 200 70 Sir Ralph Stevenson seconded and the resolution was agreed. £59,815 £62,705

Isle of Man Assessment Board—Estimates of £2,500.—Forestry, Mines and Lands Board—Estimates of £72,530. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960 549

EXTRAORDINARY EXPENDITURE know how many members have visited £2,385 New Vehicles & the Dunham beds. It will be quite an Machinery £3,325 experience to go and see them. 4,000 Acquisition of Land 4.000 2,500 Amenity Land Pur- Members: What bed? chase & Planting 2.500 Mr Nivison: What is it — a feather 8,885 9,825 bed. £72,530 £68,703 Mr Corkhill: Now, Your Excellency, I wish to refer to the forestry nurseries, Resolved—that Tynwald requests His Ex- which have increased by six acres and cellency to give consideration to the same in the total acreage is now 22 acres, but framing the Estimates for the year 1960/61. it must be remembered that each tree I suppose, Your Excellency, that it will must spend a period of three years in not be necessary to refer to the various the nursery and you have something like 1,500 plants in one acre. With regard to items but, altogether, there is something vehicles, there are fourteen,. with three like £4,000 more than last year. In tractors, and when we come to building wages, Your Excellency, we increased and road repairs and estate mainten- the number of regular workers—full- ance, including glen there is an addi- time workers—by four and this led to tional expenditure as we intend re- wages increasing by about £2,000. On surfacing the roads at the St. John's the land we have four whole-time nursery and we have put down a figure workers and two winter workers and I of £750. Silverdale entrance and car would like to point out to the Court park will come to £500 and Laxey Glen that the salaries and wages represent will take £200. Then we have in mind about 80 per cent, of the total expendi- the rehabilitation of a house at Glen ture. Now, I would like to say a word Helen. We do not know if we will go on about the plantations and the growth in with it but we have put down £700, and the acreage of land from 1950 up to date. that comes to a total of £2,150. Coming In that year we started 'planting 100 to the question of amenity planting, I acres and up to 1952 there were 160 should refer to the number of glens we acres. Then we dropped to 141 acres have undertaken to rehabilitate and but by 1956 we had got 323 acres per preserve and we have Ballaglass, Dhoon, year and this year,. in the current plant- Colby, Molly Quirk's Glen, Laxey Glen, ing season, we have planted out 430 Glen Helen, Silverdale, Glen Mooar acres and next season we hope to get in (which leads to Spooyt Vane), Glen- about the same acreage. I think it maye and Ballure, which is the gift from might be interesting to the Court to Mr J. -H. Murray. Provision has been know the plantation age groups. From made to assist in the care and planting one year to twenty we have 3,301 acres of land under public and private owner- and between 21 and 40 years, there are ship, the amount of the assistance 537 acres, and when you come to the 41 granted being dependent on the amenity to 80-year group there are 311 acres. It value of the land concerned to the Manx will be seen, Your Excellency, that we public in general. To give some idea have built up planting to some extent. of the cost of replanting these glens,. in in fact, over the past ten years we have Glen Helen, for instance, we planted had an average of 250 acres planted 3,364 shrubs and twenty trees and if we each year. Now, with regard to seed- had to purchase the stuff it would have lings and plantings, we have seedlings cost about £400. At Silverdale, we put and plants totalling something like one in 664 various shrubs and decorative and a half million seeds and half an acre trees which would have cost £93 and of plantings and seventy pounds of Molly Quirk's Glen the same, and at seeds to be sown this time. I do not Tholt-y-Will the cost of the shrubs and

Forestry, Mines and Lands Board—Estimates of £72,530. .550 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960 plantings will amount to £1,136. At Mr Kerruish: While I support this the moment we are trying to deal with resolution, Your Excellency, I must Ballaleece, on the Peel Road, East Fox- admit that I have a criticism to offer on dale, Rock Farm at Greeba, Crossack the question of amenity planting on the Farm, Ballasalla and Baljean. We have part of the Forestry Board and also on also done work for local authorities and Boards of Tynwald. For instance, we the condition which the glens which have planted 303 plants at Port Erin at they took over some years ago, have a cost of £23 for the Commissioners deteriorated into. Ballaglass and Dhoon and a further 60 at a cost of £13. The glens are neglected glens as far as the Highway Board work at Kirby will, I Forestry Board are concerned. Balla- think, take some 4,000 thorn plants at a glass started so well but stopped its deve- cost of £70.. and we hope to get permis- lopment halfway—from Cornaa Mill to sion to put in decorative trees about the tram stop. Dhoon Glen has not re- every thirty yards on the bank in the ceived the emphasis that the prettiest field. In Bride we have put about 150 glen in the Island deserves. In fact, it shrubs at a cost of £2 12s, and work is difficult to detect that the glen is has also been done at Glen Duff, there. You can pass it, if you are a Road, and Bibaloe, at a total expendi- visitor in a car, because it has a very ture of £1,251. We have also been deadly entrance. Could not the Board working at Dunluce, near Ramsey, do something to make the entrance a Ballaharry and Laxey "Deads." Work little more attractive in the same way is proceedings on the banks of the Sulby as they have treated Glen Helen, for River—both sides—from Sulby Bridge instance? Now the chairman of the to Ramsey, and in the dis- Forestry Board mentioned amenity trict. I don't know that there is any planting in connection with Laxey other information I can give. The "Deads." I hope he will do some talk- increase in expenditure has been mainly ing to the Forestry Board, because there due to road repairing and labour, and I has been no development worthy of the hope the Court will have much pleasure name since they took over there, and in passing this resolution. I would like Laxey Glen in the future should be kept members of the Court to appreciate the in the condition it warrants. Speaking work done in these glens by having a of Laxey, I .noted that the chairman of look for themselves. the Forestry Board in detailing their programme of possible planting did not Mr A. C. Teare seconded. mention a plot of some nine acres in extent which was offered through Your Mr Crellin: I would like to congratu- Excellency's predecessor by the Laxey late the Forestry Board in the excellent Carpet Company, on—I think it was—a work they have done in the glen 99-year lease. That seems to have been adjoining Ramsey, by Ballure. There is pigeon-holed and forgotten. Speaking a road going through there that no one generally on this question of amenity used to be able to see because of the planting, I am disappointed that the briars and bracken and things, and now Board have not carried out a much they have cleared it up beautifully. But, wider planting in the last year or two. Your Excellency. could I ask what the I had hoped that with the new blood Board are doing towards keeping down the hooded crows in all these planations introduced to your Board, there would have been a considerable increase in the they are planting? They are becoming amenity planting in 'the highways and a menace, pecking out lambs' eyes all bye-ways of this Island. But apart over the Island, and the ordinary man from the little bit going up by Bibaloe, cannot get at them. there is not much to be seen. Maybe Mr Corkhill: I think that question they will look into it in the future. should be referred to the Board of Agriculture, Your Excellency, Mr Corkhill: I would like to say--

Forestry, Mines and Lands Board—Estimates of £72.530. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960 55i

The Governor: I think you should take is going to be used for Silverdale. If a note and refer to the various questions there is any information available about when you reply to the debate. this I think it would be useful. Mr Bolton: I think I would like to Mr Stephen: The hon. member,. the congratulate the Board on its work. chairman of the Board also mentioned Travelling about the Island I notice the the Bay Hotel, and I would like-- large number of places where the Board Mr Corkhill: I do not recollect men- is operating and it takes many years tioning the Bay Hotel. for the work to grow to a point at which it becomes what may be described as an Mr Stephen: Then obviously I mis- amenity. heard you, but if not I would like an explanation of what he meant by the Mr Kerruish: What about Squeezers Bay Hotel. Glen? Mr Corkhill: But there is no connec- Mr Bolton: The hon. member for tion with the Bay Hotel. Garff, Mr Kerruish, probably knows more about Squeezers Glen than I! Mr Stephen: Quite, but would the Seriously, though, the Highway Board chairman explain what exactly is meant is ready to co-operate with the Forestry by £4,000 for the acquisition of land. Board and we make suggestions from Mr Corkhill: I have mentioned Hague time to time when we are making Crescent, Your Excellency-- alterations that amenity planting might take place. For instance, there is the Mr Stephen: I may not have heard stretch at Kirby and we made sugges- you correctly, but I would still like to tions there when the alterations were know what land is to be acquired for made-- £4,000, and the other "large" scheme— £30 for the eradication of bracken. Mr Edward Callister: It will need it. What can be done for £30? These are Mr Bolton: It is so easy to criticise, all points I wish to raise and, generally but the alterations at Kirby were made speaking, I think the Board is doing a necessary by the dangerous state of the good job for the Isle of Man. walls and trees. It was not that we Mr Irving: There is just one thing I desire to carry out the work but it be- would like to say. The chairman said comes necessary in the interests of 80 per cent, of the estimates comprised safety of road users, and we hope that the cost of labour. I would say 85 per the Forestry Board will be able to co- cent, will be spent on labour. We have operate with us in beautifying it. There here a really first-class unemployment is just one question I would like to ask scheme whereby the Board carry out and that is in connection with Silver- afforestation and amenity planting, both dale. I had no idea that the Board of which improve the appearance of the owned Silverdale and I would-- Island and provide 80 per cent. of their Mr Gale, Glen Auldyn, not Silverdale. outlay in salaries and wages. I only hope that the Board will in future in- Mr Bolton: The hon. member, the crease the amount and we will spend chairman of the Board, referred to more money to provide work for the making up the road there. There is a unemployed and improve the appear- road from Billown down to Silverdale. ance of the Island, rather than the If the Board is to make up the road, I horror schemes which we can hope for would like to know what use they will now. put it to because the lake at Silverdale and the cafe are private. I feel that Members: Vote, vote. quite a lot of the increase in the esti- Mr Corkhill: Your Excellency, I mates is due to the £2,600 which is to be would like to reply to the hon. member spent in road repairs and which I think for Garff, Mr Kerruish, first. There is

Forestry, Mines and Lands Board—Estimates of £72,530. 552 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960 such a thing as a bottomless pit,. and Mr Stephen: Well, we have spent £500 Laxey has become a bottomless pit. this year and we ard spreading this (Laughter.) A large amount of money expenditure over a number of years. has been spent on Laxey and I would Mr Bolton: Are you getting the High- like to see a. quarter of it spent on a way Board to do it? place like Foxdale-- Mr Corkhill: We are allowed to let Mr Kerruish: You have to get a lead tenders out. (Laughter.) There was on that one thought. one occasion when we got a bit of chaffing from the Highway Board, but Mr Corkhill: I do not follow you. We, there is one other point which was as a Board, have only been concerned raised by the member for' Douglas with the upper half of the Laxey South, Mr Stephen. I have said in this "Deads." It you can compare anything Court once or twice let hon. members closer to the Sahara I would like to deal with things they understand and know where it is. We have actually got leave the things alone they do not under- the soil there to plant trees and get stand to the people who do understand them to grow, and it appears as if the them, and in that way we shall go hon. member has not been looking round forward. But the hon. member men- very much or he would have noticed tioned this £30 for the eradication of there was some activity going on in the bracken. This money is needed simply Sahara of Laxey, and I hope in time we to deal with about five acres of bracken will be able to transform it. The hon. as an experiment. We tried last year member also referred to the Dhoon and we were not satisfied with the Glen. Now we cannot afford to have a result. A firm has been over here to man working in the Dhoon all the time. encourage us to spend £7.000 some odd but before Easter we shall have men in hundreds of pounds in eradicating each of the glens and each of these bracken, but we are going to try, first, glens is 100 per cent. more attractive with five acres of braken on which we than they were ten years ago. will spend the £30. Mr Crellin: The chairman of the Mr Edward Callister: Do not cut down Board has not answered my question on it. yet. Mr Corkhill:, I do hope the Court will The Governor: And I was waiting to not be influenced by anything the hon. hear something about Ballaglass. member for Garff has said. I am not Mr Kerruish: That concerns the upset by anything he has said really. development of the other side of the (Laughter.) Then he mentioned a gift. Glen where the footpaths have become Well, I do not know anything at all very neglected. about the gift to which he has referred. I would like to know about it and I am Mr Corkhill: It has been bad weather prepared to say we would be happy to —and I would have thought that the accept it. Now, Silverdale, Your hon. member for Garff would have Excellency, seems to be creating a lot of known, because he knows the effect of interest and contention. Silverdale was climatic conditions, and we cannot have purchased by the Board last year and three or four' men working in these we took it over at the back end. We did glens. I hope before Easter all these not purchase the cafe. We purchased glens will be in a condition which will the lake and the grounds, and I do not suit the hon. member for Gartf. know what use really Silverdale Glen Mr Crellin: I would still like an would be without a proper parking place answer to my question. What are the and a road. The item of £4,000 for Forestry Board doing to keep down the land acquisition was referred to by the hooded crows in the plantations they hon. member for pouglas South. are planting.

Forestry, Mines and Lands Board—Estimates of £72,530. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960 553

Mr Corkhill: Nothing. I think that is 5.000 Rebuilding portions of Quay Wall, Salt Works Site, a question for the Board of Agriculture Ramsey 5.000 and Fisheries. 1.200 Provision of Ferry Boats at Mr Stephen: I must apologise to the Peel hon. member, but I would still like an £143,200 answer to my question with reference £123,360 to the Bay Hotel. Resolved,—that Tynwald requests His Ex- cellency to give conusideration to the same Mr Corkhill: Would it be fair for me in framing the Estimates for the year 1960/61. to ask Mr Stephen to give me time to reply to that question when I shall do Members will note there is a reduction my best to satisfy him. of £20,000 in these estimates. I do not intend to make a long speech, but if Mr Nivison: Your Excellency, on the there are any questions shall do my question of the Hague Crescent and the best to answer them. The estimates are Bay Hotel, may I say that permission straightforward and I think this will be was given to the Board to clean it up the first time for fourteen years that and they have done a good job. we shall not be carrying out capital Mr Corkhill: I mentioned the Hague works. We have done quite a lot of Crescent, but the front of the Bay Hotel work throughout the Island, spending was very dilapidated. We are not, in £400.000 at Douglas,. Laxey, Ramsey, fact, paying for the land; we are merely Peel, Port Erin and Port St. Mary. improving its appearance. It looks After all, the harbours and the shores better. of the Isle of Man are of vital impor- tance to the life of the Island, and I Mr Stephen: I am greatly obliged for have no hesitation in bringing forward the explanation. our estimates for the forthcoming year. The resolution was carried. Mr Nicholls: Your Excellency, I beg to second and reserve my remarks. Mr Colebourn: Your Excellency, I ISLE. OF MAN HARBOUR BOARD— note that the chairman mentioned Dou- ESTIMATES FOR £123.360 glas, Laxey, Ramsey, Port Erin and Port The Governor: Now item 15, the St. Mary, but made no reference to estimates of the Harbour Board and I Castletown. I would like his assurance that provision for Castletown is in- call upon the chairman. cluded in this large sum of money con- Mr Kelly: I beg to move the follow- tained in the estimate, and that also ing resolution:— when he comes to deal with Castletown whereas the Isle of Man Harbour Board that he will be able to afford a couple have submitted their Estimates of Expendi- of pints of paint for the crane, which is ture, totalling £123,360, for the financial year an "eyesore" on the Harbour Pier. ending March 31st, 1931, made up as follows:— Mr Bolton: I would like to make one 1959/60 1960/61 or two comments, Your Excellency. I £112,615 Maintenance of Insular was very interested in the setting out of Harbours £103,155 the figures to note how craftily they are 1,815 Victoria Pier Buildings . 1,815 —perhaps that is not quite fair—should 9,985 Queen's Pier, Ramsey 9.980 I say in what a crafty manner they 4,485 Douglas Swing Bridge 3,410 prepared their estimate. The first thing 500 Repairs to North Break- water, Ramsey is a figure of £112,155,. from which they 3,600 Quay Wall, Laxey have deducted £9,000 in respect of 4,000 Repairs, Alfred Pier, Port receipts, which go to themselves, and St. Mary they then proceed with a reduced figure

Isle of Man Harbour Board—Estimates for £123,360. 554 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960 of £103,155. Then when you turn over Court, I feel it is quite wrong to include the page you find they have again in- in the estimates an item of £10,000 cluded the £9,000, showing they re- which, if approved, can be spent without ceived £32,000, so it would appear they further reference to the Court. I do not have £32,000 to set against the figure of say it can be spent to-day, but I have £123,360, whereas they have only been in this Court a few years and if £23,.000 to set against expenditure. I the vote gets passed to-day we know was more interested in noting that the what may happen. Now is the time to hon. member said there were no capital criticise these estimates. I would not charges this year. There is a figure of suggest it be held over if we did not £11,150 for Ramsey Harbour, the know that the Harbour Board had Queen's Pier, £9,980, and the rebuilding before them the whole question of the of the quay wall, etc., Salt Works site, future of the Queen's Pier, and I don't Ramsey, £5,000, making a total of think it should be made the subject of a separate vote until the results of the £26,630. That is for Ramsey, together inquiries are made known. It may be with an appropriate proportion of the that they may require a larger sum to administrative expenses, which I take remove the pier or that they will come would amount to almost one-quarter of forward with a plan to reconstruct it the net amount that they are spending. and need a larger sum for that. But to I feel, sir, that we should have a little come forward with a vote for £10,000 explanation on this. The hon. member for tinkering with it—I think it is for Castletown has raised the matter of tinkering—is not right. We are all Castletown Harbour. I see that it is to aware that to put the Pier in proper receive £3,165, which is about 20 per condition is going to cost more than cent, of the amount to be spent •on £10,000, and I think at this juncture we Ramsey Harbour. With regard to the should delete this item. If any work is Queen's Pier, I have been looking at the necessary for the 1960 season that must accounts for the Isle of Man Harbour already have been provided for and Board for the year ended 31st March, carried out. This must be for work 1959, and on page 7, paragraph 5, it later in the year. I feel the Board states, "Sixty-eight vessels, with a total should not put forward their estimates nett registered tonnage of 66,117, in this way without explaining what berthed at the pier during the year. The their programme is for the future. number of passengers disembarked Therefore I move, Your Excellency, amounted to 2,410 and the number that the sum of £9,980 be deleted from embarked amounted to 2,409." I would this estimate with a view to the matter like to know where the other one went; coming before the Court at a future whether he has taken up residence in occasion—the earlier the better—when Ramsey or not. (Laughter.) But quite the Harbour Board would be able to seriously, these figures show that 2,410 report fully on the Queen's Pier. people arrived at the Queen's Pier at Ramsey, and if we look at the amount Mr Kerruish: Your Excellency, I in- of money stated for the Pier, £9,980, we tend to support the resolution, and I do see it works out at almost £4 per head deplore the tactics used by the hon. of the people landed at the Pier. In member for Douglas West, Mr Bolton, view of discussions that have taken with regard to the Queen's Pier. I place regarding the Queen's Pier and in have noticed this process of infiltration view of the fact that the Board is known going on for a period, with the result to be investigating the whole question of that the Court will eventually be reconstruction and bearing in mind the accepting that the Queen's Pier should amount in which they may become in- be demolished. In his own cunning way volved either for its removal or recon- he is building up a picture to lead the struction, which may be decided by the Court into a trap to say the Queen's Pier

Isle of Man Harbour Board—Estimates for £123,360, TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960 555 must go in the interest of the Island's of the berth and I would ask them to economy. He says they have got figures give consideration, to clearing it and out to-day to show it must go. But making the place worthwhile for the these figures have been prepared to give visitors. His Excellency information on the position. It is not a question of doing Mr Nicholls: Your Excellency, I want away with the Pier. I think this is a to make one point. I could hardly be- quiet move on the part of Mr Bolton lieve my ears when I heard what the for doing away with the Pier, and this hon. member who spoke last had to say comes from a man who blithely spent about the proposed slipway and ship £120,000 on a plant which works one repairing at Ramsey, and I hope the day a week, while the Pier works five hon. chairman of the Board will forgive days a week. I want to make a point, me for stealing some of his ammunition. Your Excellency, in relation to votes I feel strongly on this matter, because it such as those of the Harbour Board and was at my suggestion that this scheme the Airports Board. There should be was first considered. The hon. member some relation between the revenue to for Garff is quite right. We have the be derived and the cost of maintenance. nucleus for a first-class ship repairing The sooner the revenue derived by the works at Ramsey. We were very glad to Boards is put on a proper basis the take over the old Salt Works as there better, and I would ask the chairman of was the possibility of putting a slipway the Harbour Board if he has any infor- on the site. I did put a theory of my mation on that point. My next point is own. I thought of a dry docks there. that every member of the Court is We called a meeting of certain gentle- pledged to the development of industry men in the Island, who had first-hand within the Island, and we are con- knowledge of this work. We had two tinually looking out for ways and directors from the firm of Booth Kelly, means of developing industry, and the the Marine Superintendent of the Isle of Isle of Man Harbour Board have deve- Man Steam Packet Company and the loped within the Island and because it Managing Director of the Ramsey is within the Island it is considered Steamship Company, who knew what worthless in some quarters. I am refer- they were talking about. The Board did ring to the development of the Salt their utmost to get real first-hand in- Works Site at Ramsey and the putting formation and from that we evolved a up of a slipway there for use by small scheme to erect a slipway 150 feet long, shipping around these Islands and not only to take fishing vessels but small where we have the nucleus of a repair coasting steamers as well. I was depot. At Booth Kelly's at Ramsey particularly interested in this scheme there is a way of developing, and the because I saw the advantage of estab- Harbour Board, knowing it can be deve- lishing a repair works and have always loped, have produced a scheme at a cost been keenly interested in the matter, as of £54,000. I would like to know why it is to do something of value for the it was shelved and why there is not a Island, not only for the employment of vote for it to-day on this agenda, and if adults but for the creation of an appren- the chairman will give consideration to ticeship scheme and so on, we put for- bringing it before the Court to test the ward this proposal to erect a slipway feeling of the Court on it. I will finish, to Your Excellency's predecessor. It Your Excellency, with one small refer- came before the Executive Council of ence to Laxey, this most important which the hon. member for Garff was a section of the Island. It is growing in member. The chairman and myself, popularity and must • be looked after. along with the engineer attended a For years it has been the habit of the meeting of the Executive Council to Harbour Board to tip stones at the end discuss the matter and to my astonish-

,Isle of Mail Harbour Board—Estimates for £123,360, 556 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960

ment Your Excellency's predecessor in- were placed so that when the tide went formed us that the Council had con- down it enabled the firm to carry out sidered the scheme and had come to the repairs at low tide only. The argument conclusion that we did not require a for the slipway was to enable this work slipway 150ft, long but one half that to be carried out at all stages of the size to take small fishing boats. I was tide. Two schemes were then produced taken aback and asked Your Excel- by the Harbour Board. One was to do lency's predecessor on whose advice the job which was first proposed—to they had come to that conclusion. Had enable work to be carried out at all the Council taken expert advice? The stages of the tide at a cost of £20,000. Governor replied that no. they had While the Harbour Board were pro- arrived at that state of mind on their ducing that scheme they decided they own. It shook me to the core. We had would try their luck for a bigger and gone to a lot of trouble on this. We had better scheme. That was going to cost a long meeting with these gentlemen I £54,000. I think it should be under- spoke of to get some practical informa- tion to guide us and then the Executive lined that the charges to be made for Council, without consulting anyone, the use of this patent slipway would turned the scheme down and told us we result in it losing money and the bigger would only get a slipway half the size. it was the more it would lose. It was Eventually the Board was informed that felt by the Executive Council that as the the Government could not find the original proposal was to enable small money for the purpose and the matter fishing vessels to be dealt with it was was held in abeyance. What could the that suggestion they would offer the Harbour Board do in view of that? Does Board. The Harbour Board was told the hon. member suggest that we should they could have a smaller patent slip- have taken it out of the hands of the way if they wanted it, but Mr Nicholls Government and brought it before the said "If we cannot have a big one we Court? That is what happened to the will have nothing." scheme and it disappointed me very much. I think it should be pursued. Mr Bolton: I am rising to confirm E54,000 to establish a very valuable what the hon. member for Rushen has industry is not to be lightly turned said. Those were the facts and, as a down. I was astonished that one of the member of the Executive Council, I reasons given to discourage the scheme think the Court should be aware of the was that if we employed a lot of facts. engineers and boiler-makers, and so on, Mr Crellin: I went into this question we would have strikes such as occured and to my mind it was a good scheme. in England. I have never heard such I think we would get a number of steam nonsense in my life. trawlers. At present steam trawlers Mr Simcocks: You have had a fair come into Ramsey. Fleetwood cannot example of the happy game of slanging cope with them and we would get a the Executive Council. number here. Another point I wanted to raise was with reference to the Mr Nicholls: It is the truth. Swing Bridge at Douglas. Mr Simcocks: I will leave it to the Mr Kerruish: And Ramsey. Court to judge the truth. A scheme was evolved for a slipway at Ramsey on the Mr Crellin: I see it is proposed to argument that there were a number of spend £8,000 on it this year and last fishing vessels round the coasts which year. I would like to know if it is the required repairs and were in fact being intention to make it available for repaired at Kelly's in Ramsey, and that vehicular traffic again or will it be just this firm had a cradle on which vessels for foot passengers. If it is only for

Isle of Man Harbour Board—Estimates for E123.360. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960 557

foot passengers I am going to suggest sicler and report to the Court on the that it is an expensive bridge to main- question of opening the bridge for vehi- tain. cular traffic?

Mr Stephen: It is interesting to note Mr J. M. Cain: I would like to support these remarks with reference to the Mr Crellin and Mr Stephen in asking Queen's Pier and its possible demolition. the chairman of the Harbour Board for They have their origin in a remark information on the future policy with passed, either humorously or semi- regard to bridges which have been humorously in this Court by the late closed to certain traffic which they carried for many. years. I refer to Mr T. C. Cowin. Your Excellency can Ramsey, Castletown and Douglas accept my assurance that Mr Cowin had bridges. We do not know in this Court great wit which could be penetrating what is to be their future. All they and devastating. In this case it was have done is to make rules and regula- devastating and it has left behind it a tions for bridges which have been in heritage which has been taken over by existence for many years. When are Mr Bolton, who has almost mesmerised they going to come forward and say it the Court into the idea that we must will cost this much to set that bridge demolish the Queen's Pier. The figures in order and so on. We should know are staggering. Only 4,000 people use the position. Surely we are not going the pier, but if we demolish the Queen's to retard the progress made by our fore- Pier we will be murdering the town. fathers in building those bridges. All Eighty per cent of the people who land we are doing is putting up signs that people can walk on them only. I feel there are Belfast passengers and it is very strongly that we are doing nothing for Ramsey the only direct link with the and that all the Harbour Board is outside world. (Laughter.) I am doing is putting up notices that no traffic referring to steamer services and the can now go over these bridges. I think loss of the Liverpool service left only the Harbour Board should do some- the Belfast service at Ramsey. If that thing about letting us know their policy pier has to go, on sheer economic facts on the matter. its destruction may be justified but we have an awful responsibility because in Mr Quayle: May I thank the Harbour effect we will be murdering Ramsey. I Board for the help they have given to small sea craft. They have been most spent some years working in Ramsey helpful and very courteous in receiving and unless some very powerful reasons deputations. They have taken the are advanced—more powerful than any- attitude that their time is not too thing I have heard yet—I am not going valuable to see •ordinary amateurs—I to be a party to murdering Ramsey. I am very glad to say that. May I pose do not know what is happening in the three questions to the Board? First the Harbour Board now with a view to the enclosure of the Castletown harbour. maintenance or destruction of the pier Enough has been said about it, but may but no doubt in the course •of time the I ask whether the Board would be good chairman of the Board will answer the enough to get out some figures which question accurately put by the member would have some bearing and value. for Douglas West. On the Douglas The chairman said about £20,000. I Swing Bridge I think the chairman said about £100,000. I do not think might give an indication of their inten- either of us really know. Secondly, tions. Mr Crellin has raised the issue. with regard to the development at Is this expenditure being proposed with Ramsey. I think it is most desirable. a view to opening the bridge for Being a welder, I can see a lot of vehicular traffic or for pedestrians only obstacles, but it should come before the and if the latter would the Board con- Court. It is a matter of first importance

Isle of Man Harbour Board—Estimates for £123.360. 558 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1969 in policy in the Island and I have strong Th c Governor: It is now six o'clock. views on it. This could be a wonderful Do members wish to wait until the advantage to a competitor of mine but morning to allow the chairman to sleep I would be the first to say good luck to on his reply? him. It should be discussed in this Mr Irving: May 1 second the amend- Court. The only other point is to thank ment proposed by my colleague, Mr the Board for the vast improvements in Bolton. Douglas harbour. They have been appreciated by everyone going in there Members: It was seconded. and also the improvement of the Alfred Mr Irving: It was not seconded. I Pier at Port St. Mary. I might add that believe the hon. chairman has the at Whit three visiting yacht clubs are figures for the demolition of the Queen's coming to the Island from Dun Laog- Pier. (Cries of "No,. no.") That is what haire, Howth and Beaumaris and the I understand. If the figures are not end of the race will be at Port St. Mary available- now it seems pointless to vote harbour and I hope the chairman of the £10.000 without knowing what is hap- Board will come down and officially pening. I think it should be dealt with greet them. He will no doubt be giving by special resolution, Your Excellency us some information and we hope the and it would give members the oppor- Board will give the matter considera- tunity of voting without committing tion and then we could get thousands of themselves to demolition. people from all parts of the Irish Sea to The Governor: The chairman to reply. come here. Mr Kelly: Well, I did not think we Mr Edward Callister: There are two would have such stormy seas to-day. questions I would like to ask the chair- But I would be disappointed if it did man of the Harbour Board. What pro- not happen, I have been here for 14 gress has been made at Peel with regard years and I have been chairman of the to the ferries and the other question is Board for ten years and regularly every that I would like to know something of year it is traditional to face up to the the cost of the work in Ramsey Har- question of the maintenance of the bour, which comes to £11,050 and why Queen's Pier or its disappearance. The the steps are being filled in, and I would late Mr T. C. Cowin kept it up for years like to know what action has been taken and now Mr Bolton has taken on the in providing anchorage and docks to mantle. (Laughter.) There is a lot carry out shipping repairs. of truth in what the hon. member for Douglas South said that you can work Deemster Kneale: I understood we yourself into such an agitation that you were going to improve our harbour come to believe yourself. Let me make property to encourage boats to visit it quite clear that the Harbour Board Ramsey for repairs. We have not have carried out absolutely, more than heard a word about it. There was a absolutely, the question posed to the scheme for a dry dock at Ramsey. It Board to get out the figure covering its could be provided in Ramsey and it reconstruction, to put it in proper order, would enable yachtsmen to get in and and, two, the cost if the Government did out earlier and later on the tides. decide to do away with it—the cost of They are a grand lot of spenders and its demolition. We went much further. bring along a lot of people with them We wrote to three firms and I think we We need to encourage them, but they got one reply and in the meantime we will not come into our harbours under have heard nothing because they are present conditions. If we make a so busy across the water with their recommendation the scheme should be bounding prosperity that they are not carried out. worried about our scrap.

Isle of Man Harbour Board—Estimates for £123.360, TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960 559

Mr Quayle: Is that what it is—scrap? Mr Kelly: The wording is not correct. Mr Kelly: It is a pity to look on the The money is automatically paid to Queen's Pier as something that has to Government Office. disappear and I am sure that Mr Mr Bolton: Why did you put them Bolton's move, as someone has said, like that. would be "murdering" Ramsey. When the late Deemster Cowley was here he Mr Kelly: I will have to find out- stood up for Ramsey and the pier. (laughter)—I do not read them. I am Mr Bolton: Your Excellency, would so familiar with the work of the Har- the hon. chairman say that it is a fact bour Board that there is no point in me that they are obtaining the figures they doing so. But it was agreed that it have been asked to obtain. Should be so and every penny piece is paid into Government Office. With Deemster Kneale: At your request— regard to Mr Kerruish, I am very glad at the request of the Executive Council. he has raised the whole question of the Mr Kelly: The latest information is slipway and I am glad that the vice- that the firm's consultant was here for chairman has put the case for the Board a week's visit and when he has gone into to the Court. We had intended from the the question of the whole structure we very start to have the larger of the two will be given his report, but we haven't slipways and we learned that it would got it yet. cost £54,000 and that £27,000 would be Mr Bolton: And you have not pressed labour costs in the Isle of Man and him. £27,000 would have to be imported into the Isle of Man, being specialised work. Mr Goole: Not interested. We would have used £27,000 on Manx Mr Kelly: It's all right, I'm 'only labour for the preparation of the site working to rule—(laughter)—but we and I am convinced we were unanimous are carrying out what we were asked. in the Board but, as the vice-chairman I hope the members of the Court will added, it was left over because we did treat this amendment as they have not have the money to do it, but now treated it for the past ten years. I am that the Court has ventilated it they are sure that the majority view is that the aware of what is going on. pier should be held on to. I can assure Mr Nivison: Could I ask a question? Mr Colebourn that of the figure of Was there any question as to the £400,000 for work carried out Castle- suitability of the larger slipway with town has had a fair share. Now, coming the vessels that frequent Manx har- back to the figure of Mr Bolton, the bours? figure of receipts. There were £32,000 receipts on the summary and, under the Mr Kelly: That is the fiist I have Finance Act, the Harbour Board has heard of it. That is a remarkable to send every penny piece to Govern- statement to make. ment Office. Mr Nivison: It is the information I Mr Bolton: Nine thousand pounds heard from the hon. member, the chair- were taken off on the first sheet. I am man. referring to the sheet circulated dealing with the Harbour Board estimates and Mr Kelly: I do not think there is any £9,000 was deducted. truth in that story. I am not trying to pull a fast one on the Court. There is a Mr Kelly: It may have been put in the small one and a larger one and the small same way. one was to cater for the little boats and Mr Bolton: That £9,000 is the same we were thinking on the lines of the type £9,000. of small coaster—there is a nucleus with

Isle of Man Harbour Board—Estimates for £123.360. 560 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960 the Ramsey Steamship Company—that bour was suggested about four years type of vessel, to be repaired on the ago, and then it would have cost £22,000 slipway and they promised to bring the and taken fourteen yachts. Unfor- fullest possible help because you can tunately, the basin would have to be a spend something like £7,000 or £8,000 tidal one, but instead of the yachts being on repairs for a vessel and if this work berthed on the West Quay where all the could be developed in Ramsey it would cargo ships are berthed, they would be certainly lift our economy and at Booth able to sail into this little basin. Now Kelly's you have 17 to 20 workmen, all someone has mentioned the question of qualified and you could have appren- £11,600 for Ramsey. That happens to tices to learn the trades in connection be a bit of luck for Ramsey. It is not with ships and I think it is a question true to say that I am a Ramsey man, to be reconsidered by the Executive steering all the way for Ramsey— Council in its proper light. although I haven't done so bad, I know. Mr Simcocks: So far as this matter (Laughter.) We have spent a lot of being held over is concerned,, the offer money,. £70,000, on the north break- made to the Board was turned down by water, which was completed last year. the Board. Five thousand of this £11,600 is to be spent on the south pier, and there is Mr Kelly: Because we considered it nothing unusual about that. was not the most suitable. It must have been held over. Mr Edward Callister: What about Mr Simcocks: It has not been held• filling in the steps? over. Mr Kelly: Quite frankly, I am rather Mr Nicholls: We were told that the surprised to hear this raised. I don't Government could not afford the money know whether Mr Callister knows the for the biggest slipway. position, but the steps we are filling in are right in the middle of three sets of Deemster Kneale: What was suggested steps and the whole distance between by the Executive was a waste of money. the three sets is only about 120 yards. Mr Nicholls: The questions was asked Those steps were completely rotten and at a conference with the Executive had been there a great many years: Council could we, to save money, put in They used to be the steps used by the cheaper and lighter foundations and rowing boats, but we haven't had any then, at a later date, extend the scheme rowing boats in Ramsey harbour for a to the larger size and I pointed out that very long time now. The Steam Packet the biggest cost was putting in the Company's cargo steamers berth at this foundations and there was no question spot and there is absolutely no practical of putting in a light foundation and then use for the steps now. They are used building a bigger slipway. That would very, seldom. be just crazy. Mr Edward Callister: Would it not Mr Kelly: Mr Kerruish has raised have cost less to renew them rather the question of Laxey beach and it will than fill them in? be attended to as soon as possible, cer- tainly before Easter. We wanted to Mr Kelly: No, it would not. take the stones off Laxey beach but, Mr Crellin: What about the swing along with the Planning Officer, we are bridge? looking for a place to put the stones. Deemster Kneale raised the question of Mr Kelly: I am glad you brought this a yacht basin at Ramsey, and this is a into the open. I had told Mr Simcocks matter which I hope will now be last June that we were going into this brought forward again. A small yacht question. Steps are being taken to basin on the Mooragh side of the har- ascertain what the cost of a new bridge

Isle of Man Harbour Board—Estimates for £123.360, TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 15, 1960 561

would be at Douglas. And at the same A division was called for and the time, we are asking what the figure for voting was as follows:— the repair of the bridge to take two-ton vehicles in single line traffic would be. For: Messrs Simcocks, Irving, Bolton We feel that pedestrians have a right to and Colebourn-4. this bridge. We have given an awful lot of use to the vehicle users. There Against: Messrs Corkhill, Crowe, Rad- will be a lot of trouble even if we re- cliffe, J. L. Callister, Kerruish, introduce one-way traffic for vehicles. Nivison, Quayle, H. S. Cain, McFee, But to provide a new bridge is going to Coole, Edward Callister, Stephen, be a very costly thing. I think £100,000 Corkish, J. M. Cain, Kaneen, Gale, is the figure for a new bridge. The Kelly, A. C. Teare and the Speaker other cost, for the repair, would be —19. £6,000 or £7,000. Members must re- member that this bridge is very old and The Governor: The amendment is lost is wearing out like everything else. by 19 votes to four in the Keys, and Mr Stephen: Does this figure of £9,000 defeated unanimously in the Council. on the receipts side mean £9,000 more for the Board? The resolution, as printed, was carried. The Speaker: The £9,000 has been taken off. The Governor: We will now adjourn the Court and meet again to-morrow at Mr Stephen: They hold on to the the normal time, 11 a.m., gentlemen? £9,000? Deemster Kneale: Of course they do. Members: 10-30 a.m. Mr Quayle: Could I have an answer to The Governor: Any objections to my question, Your Excellency? 10-30? Mr Kelly: Yes, I will give them. Members: Yes. The Governor: I will put the amend- The Governor: 10-45 then. (Laughter.) ment, gentlemen, that the item relating to expenditure of £9,980 on the Queen's The Court stood adjourned to 10-45 Pier, be deleted from the estimates. a.m. on Wednesday, 16th March, 1960.

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Isle of Man Harbour Board—Estimates for £123,360.