Tuesday Volume 575 11 February 2014 No. 121

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 11 February 2014

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2014 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 689 11 FEBRUARY 2014 690

Greg Clark: The hon. Gentleman knows that the House of Commons funding for lending scheme, which the Government and the Bank of England have promoted, has explicitly Tuesday 11 February 2014 concentrated on getting lending going to small businesses, but as my hon. Friend the Member for Bedford (Richard Fuller) said, bank lending is not the only source of The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock finance needed. The venture capital funds established under our city deals are an important and welcome way PRAYERS in which small businesses can benefit from the finance they need to expand.

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair] City Deals

2. Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): What Oral Answers to Questions assessment he has made of how city deals are working. [902504]

The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Greg Clark): DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER We have now agreed 19 city deals, and although they are for the long term, those in the first wave are The Deputy Prime Minister was asked— already making a significant difference. For example, in Entrepreneurship Birmingham, more than 2,000 new apprenticeships have been provided. In Newcastle, infrastructure works are nearly complete on the Science Central development on 1. Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): What steps the what was previously derelict land. In Manchester, work Government are taking with local enterprise partnerships will shortly begin on the airport relief road, and Liverpool to promote entrepreneurship in towns and communities is hosting the international business festival in June and across the UK. [902503] July, which I know the hon. Member for Liverpool, The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Greg Clark): West Derby (Stephen Twigg) will be supporting and to Local enterprise partnerships, independently and through which I will ensure all colleagues receive an invitation. city deals, promote entrepreneurship in a variety of ways, including by providing help and advice to small Nadhim Zahawi: Will the Minister consider spreading businesses, premises for start-ups and access to venture the excellent city deal initiative to all parts of the capital funds. Next month, in my hon. Friend’s area, a country? small business support service will begin, bringing together the local enterprise partnership, the chambers of commerce, Greg Clark: I can confirm that there is in fact a city the Federation of Small Businesses, the Institute of deal covering my hon. Friend’s constituency, the Coventry Directors and the Engineering Employers Federation, and Warwickshire city deal, which is focused on making to assist new and growing businesses in his area. the most of the opportunities in the supply chain for advanced manufacturing. Furthermore, through the Richard Fuller: Successful entrepreneurs, particularly available local growth funds, the principle of city deals in local communities, are best placed to promote growth, is being established across the whole of England, and I jobs and prosperity. May I meet the Minister to discuss am looking forward to visiting each LEP to conduct how we can work together to develop a national network negotiations. of local enterprise funds to tap into communities’ sense of entrepreneurship? Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab): Is the Minister’s long-term vision that the various city Greg Clark: I would be delighted to do that. I pay deals will in essence mesh together to become a city tribute to my hon. Friend’s efforts in Bedford, where I region deal and therefore be spread more comprehensively think he has brought investors together to fund start-ups across the regions? and rapidly growing businesses. That is characteristic of many of the city deals that we have struck around the Greg Clark: The hon. Lady, who takes a great interest country. For example, in Nottingham, £40 million has in these matters, makes a good point. In the past few been made available, jointly by the Government, days, I have met in Birmingham all the LEPs and local Nottinghamshire county council and Nottingham city authorities from across the west midlands area precisely council, as well as local investors, to help invest in to ensure that their individual city and growth deals Nottingham businesses. I commend that to colleagues reinforce each other, so that the west midlands’ strong across the House. advantages, especially in advanced manufacturing, can be combined. Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): The most consistent barrier to entrepreneurship in my constituency is the Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): What freedoms lack of available finance from banks. Does the right are granted to rural areas to match the Heseltine review hon. Gentleman accept that today’s announcement by and the city deals being given to urban areas? Barclays—of further bonus finance available to its staff— tells us that the Government do not get that it is Greg Clark: My hon. Friend, speaking for the Isle of necessary for them to pressure the banks to start lending Wight, makes an important point. In our response to in order to encourage entrepreneurship? the Heseltine review, we have extended the principle of 691 Oral Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Oral Answers 692 city deals to rural areas, including the Isle of Wight, so Congressman Ivan Cepeda, Carlos Lozano and many that the same financial flexibilities and powers will be others received appalling death threats, and the Colombian available, as they have been to cities. Defence Secretary continued to brand them as terrorists. Colombia’s human rights record is appalling. Why is David Wright (Telford) (Lab): In towns such as Telford, the Deputy Prime Minister now turning a blind eye for the Government still own a large portion of land through the purpose of “commercial expediency”? the Homes and Communities Agency structure. Would the Minister be willing to meet councillors and officials from Telford and Wrekin council to consider how we The Deputy Prime Minister: I do not agree with the could use that land in a city deal-type partnership to characterisation of what we are trying to do in our promote more growth and development? relationship with Colombia. Colombia is a society traumatised by horrific violence, and, as the hon. Gentleman has said, there are still some instances of terrible abuses Greg Clark: I have already done that. I went to and violence. It seems to me that, in the long run, the Telford last week to have precisely the conversations only way in which the country can find its feet and have that the hon. Gentleman has in mind, and I was impressed a proper, law-abiding system in which human rights are with the conversations that took place. [Interruption.] protected is through peace and non-violence throughout He is quite right that he should have been informed. I the country. hope he was, but if he was not, I apologise for the discourtesy. However, I met his council leader. I was It is important for us to support the negotiations impressed with the work going on there, and I look between President Santos and the FARC terrorist group forward to a future visit, to which the hon. Gentleman so that we can try to establish peace for the people of will certainly be invited. Colombia. In the meantime, we are very unambiguous in what we say and do in supporting human rights Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): activists in the country—including NGO activists—and, Forgive my naivety, but I understood that city deals indeed, in supporting the Government of Colombia in were a creation of the previous Government, and that, ensuring that human rights are promoted. as suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight (Mr Turner), they channelled transport and economic Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Will the Deputy Prime development funds into cities and other urban areas Minister meet the all-party parliamentary group on and away from rural areas. human rights to discuss issues such as land rights, human rights and the health of the peace process, on Greg Clark: My hon. Friend is not right about that. which he will have been able to reflect during his visit? City deals are not an invention of the last Government; they were minted by this Government. In fact, we are told, the Labour leader of Manchester city council, Sir The Deputy Prime Minister: Of course I am keen to Richard Leese, believes that look constantly at ways in which we can collectively “there has been more progress towards the core cities taking reinforce our messages on human rights in troubled control of their own destiny in three years of the coalition than parts of the world such as Colombia, but we know from during 13 years of Labour.” peace processes of our own that, in the long run, the best way of guaranteeing human rights and the rule of Colombia law is to entrench peace, and to ensure that violence subsides and is then stopped altogether. That is what we 3. Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): What are doing in our work with President Santos’s Government. discussions he had with human rights organisations, We are also ensuring that the free trade agreements into trade unions and opposition movements during his which the European Union has entered with Colombia recent visit to Colombia; and if he will make a contain very clear human rights provisions, to be enshrined statement. [902505] in 54 specific measures that the Colombian Government need to introduce in order to protect human rights The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg): I met under the terms of the free trade agreement. the deputy director of the national victims unit, Iris Marin, as well as representatives of displaced groups and other victims of the armed conflict who sit on the Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): How much more authority round table. I also met representatives of a number of and influence does the Deputy Prime Minister think non-governmental organisations who work on human that a future Deputy Prime Minister would have when rights issues, including members of a Colombian human raising the issue of human rights in a country that he or rights lawyers’ collective and members of Peace Brigades she visited if we had abolished our human rights legislation International, a British NGO which is active in Colombia. and replaced it with a diluted Bill of Rights, or had In addition, of course, I discussed directly with President withdrawn from the European convention on human Santos the importance of protecting human rights defenders rights? and trade unionists. The Deputy Prime Minister: As the right hon. Gentleman Robert Flello: Last summer, the Deputy Prime Minister knows, that is one of the reasons why I am so staunchly said: opposed to diluting the human rights that British citizens “Britain must not step back from its historical commitment to enjoy under British and European law. It is very difficult human rights for the sake of commercial expediency.” to urge—as we do—the Governments of countries such While he was in Colombia, an eight-month-old baby as Colombia to aspire to the highest standards of was shot dead as a result of indiscriminate army gunfire. human rights if we do not do so ourselves, as a country. 693 Oral Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Oral Answers 694

Cheshire East: Business Growth Clive Efford: The Minister knows that there is widespread concern about the fall in the number of people on the 4. Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): What support the electoral register as a result of individual electoral Government are giving to business growth opportunities registration. Just how many people would have to disappear in Cheshire East through the Cheshire and Warrington from the list before the Government pulled the plug on local enterprise partnership. [902506] the project?

The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Greg Clark): I Greg Clark: Everyone who has scrutinised this matter look forward to meeting members of the Cheshire and knows that every effort is being made to ensure a Warrington local enterprise partnership to provide feedback smooth transition. For example, the existing register on its proposed bid for access to the local growth fund. will follow into the period of the next general election The sum of £2 billion has been taken from Whitehall campaign. Through the funding that we have made Departments to fund local projects that can drive growth. available for the year ahead to every local authority in I urge my hon. Friend, and all Members, to work with the country, including £26,000 for Greenwich, to promote their local enterprise partnerships and help to shape people staying on the register, there is every opportunity their bids during the weeks ahead. to increase the level of registration. That is one of the features of the new exercise. Fiona Bruce: Does the Minister agree that, in a county such as Cheshire, one priority should be to support 11. [902514] MrDavidWard(BradfordEast)(LD):Does innovative approaches to strengthening our rural economy? the Minister agree that we could improve the completeness An example is the Cheshire Fresh agricultural hub at of the register by replicating the Northern Ireland initiative Middlewich, which will provide up to 700 jobs and of working with local authorities in schools to register promote best practice, young enterprise, training, inward young people in schools? investment and food security. Greg Clark: My hon. Friend makes a good point. Greg Clark: I agree with my hon. Friend. I know that That is one of the purposes of the funding that we have that project features in the draft proposals from her made available. I participated in a very good exercise local enterprise partnership, and I hope that when she organised by a group of young people called Bite the meets representatives of her LEP, she will encourage Ballot to encourage registration in my constituency. It them to ensure that it has the priority that she rightly was a great success. I can tell my hon. Friend that thinks should be attached to it. £48,000 has been provided to the electoral registration officer in Bradford precisely for that kind of activity. Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): Despite the fact that huge amounts of public money are being Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab): Almost channelled through local enterprise partnerships, the half of all 16 and 17-year-olds are missing from the Government have admitted that they carry out no formal electoral register. If they are not on the register, they assessment of their effectiveness. What is the Minister cannot vote when they turn 18. What additional support going to do to make these partnerships more accountable, is the Minister making available to help local authorities so that the people in Warrington can get a better deal to get young people on to the register? from the Cheshire and Warrington LEP?

Greg Clark: The hon. Lady can play a role in that. Greg Clark: As I have just said, £4.2 million has been She can hold her local enterprise partnership to account made available across the country, the majority of which and scrutinise its proposals. Every LEP in England will has gone to the electoral registration officers in local be putting forward a bid for funds from the £2 billion authorities, who know their area best. They have been that I have mentioned, and I have made it clear to them invited to concentrate on the areas of under-registration, that they should consult and involve their Members of which have historically included schools. There are good Parliament. I hope that she will take up that invitation. examples of lessons and materials that can be used in schools that have a demonstrated record of achievement Electoral Register in enthusing young people and getting them to register, and I hope that the hon. Lady will be able to do the 5. Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): What steps the same in Derbyshire. Government plan to take to improve the accuracy and completeness of the electoral register. [902507] Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): The Minister is clearly doing a good job of ensuring that the register The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Greg Clark): is accurate, but may I urge him to check that the people Individual electoral registration will help to enhance the who turn up to vote are actually the people on the accuracy of the register and, from June, applications register? will be verified against Government records. We will also use data matching to ensure the completeness of Greg Clark: My hon. Friend makes an important the register during the transition to the new system, by point about accuracy. The duties of electoral registration confirming the vast majority of electors. Moreover, five officers involve ensuring accuracy as well as completeness. national organisations and every local authority in Great The transition to individual electoral registration is Britain will be sharing £4.2 million of funding aimed at precisely to ensure that the identity of people on the maximising registration. The introduction of online register can be confirmed, which does not happen at registration will improve accessibility for groups such as the moment. That will be a major step forward for the overseas voters and home movers. security of our electoral system. 695 Oral Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Oral Answers 696

Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): In Northern Roger Williams: Will the Deputy Prime Minister Ireland, which has been mentioned, we have individual update us on introducing legislation to implement the registration but big problems with registration remain, Silk commission recommendations, which have all-party particularly among young people and in socially deprived support in the National Assembly for Wales but seem to areas. Does the Minister not agree that, as well as lack wholehearted support from Her Majesty’s Opposition resources, we need a much more proactive, outgoing in Westminster? approach on the part of registration officers? I find that unless they are pushed they often sit back and do not The Deputy Prime Minister: I agree with my hon. take a proactive approach. Friend that Opposition Members have a very ambivalent attitude towards further devolution to Wales, but on the Greg Clark: The lessons that were to be learned from Government Benches we are unambiguous in our support the experience in Northern Ireland have been learned. for following up the Silk commission and translating it For example, the canvass that was not followed in into legislation. That is why we published the draft Bill, Northern Ireland will be followed here in this country. which is subject to pre-legislative scrutiny by the Welsh The right hon. Gentleman rightly says that there is a Affairs Committee right now. I cannot pre-empt the positive duty on electoral registration officers to ensure Queen’s Speech, but I hope he will be in no doubt about that the register is complete. I take that very seriously, our determination to translate the Silk report into action. and I know that they do. Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab): Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): A unique The whole House will be concerned about the impact of opportunity will arise to improve the scope, depth and the severe floods on those living and working in the accuracy of the electoral register in the next couple of Somerset levels and in the Thames valley. It is hard to years as our servicemen and women return from imagine the distress at seeing one’s home wrecked by Afghanistan and Germany. What new initiative will the flood water, but that is the situation facing so many Government take to ensure that when these personnel families today. The armed forces, fire and rescue services, are settled in their seven super-garrisons across Britain the police, local council workers and Environment Agency they will be almost 100% registered to vote? staff are all doing a heroic job in the stricken areas, often in difficult and dangerous conditions, and they Greg Clark: My hon. Friend makes a very important deserve our respect and our thanks for that. Will the point. It is crucial that our armed forces serving the Deputy Prime Minister update the House on the response country overseas are part of the franchise. He will know to the floods? that arrangements have been put in place to make sure that the need for registration—the renewal of registration —should happen only once every five years, rather than The Deputy Prime Minister: I strongly agree with the annually, to reflect the difficulties that are sometimes right hon. and learned Lady that we should all join experienced in registering during active service. together to pay tribute to everybody who is working so hard around the clock. I was in the Somerset levels on Sunday night and yesterday morning, and, in addition Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab/Co-op): to the emergency services, all the people in the gold I welcome the Minister’s praise for the excellent organisation command, the local authorities and the volunteers, who Bite the Ballot, whose national voter registration day have gone several days without sleeping properly, are last week signed up thousands of young people. Another helping their families, neighbours and friends. It really way in which we could engage more young people is an extremely impressive collective effort. The bad would be to allow 16-year-olds and 17-year-olds to have weather is still with us. The Met Office is keeping us the vote. Will he join me in welcoming tomorrow’s updated, as she knows. We are holding a series of Cobra lobby of Parliament by the Votes at 16 campaign? meetings on an ongoing basis to monitor the situation. We are working with local authorities, the Environment Greg Clark: I do welcome the lobby of Parliament; I Agency and all the emergency services to put contingency met one of the young people in my constituency and he measures in place where we think threats might arise made a very articulate case for that measure. The debate and, of course, to do our best to deal with the rising is taking off. There is not agreement across the Government water in all the places it has affected, particularly the —across this House—that this change should take place, Thames valley and the Somerset levels. but I think it is very good that the debate is happening and that young people are engaged in it. Ms Harman: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his Topical Questions response. The absolute priority for everyone now must be a total focus on working together to help people hit by the floods and those who are still threatened. People T1. [902518] Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) will still face huge challenges and great anxiety about (LD): If he will make a statement on his departmental the future even after the floodwater recedes. They will responsibilities. have to get their homes straight, their farms and businesses back on track and rebuild their livelihoods and communities. The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg): As We all know how impossible it can be, even at the best Deputy Prime Minister, I support the Prime Minister of times, wrestling with compensation schemes and on a full range of Government policy and initiatives. dealing with insurance companies. Will he assure the Within Government, I take special responsibility House that the Government are working on that now? for this Government’s programme of political and Will they bring together the insurance companies and constitutional reform. co-ordinate all the Government compensation processes 697 Oral Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Oral Answers 698 so that once the water subsides and the TV cameras the country that are expanding apprenticeships. As my move on, people are not left in the lurch and get the hon. Friend knows, notwithstanding all the very difficult ongoing help they need? costs and savings we have had to make in this coalition Government to clear up the mess we inherited from the The Deputy Prime Minister: I strongly agree with the Labour party, we have none the less increased the right hon. and learned Lady—I am sure that everyone number of apprenticeships across the country to does from all parts of the House—that that is precisely unprecedented levels. We will roll out 250,000 more what we should be doing. She may know that we have apprenticeships during this Parliament than were planned already reached an agreement with the insurance industry by the Labour party when it was in office. on a long-term approach to insuring properties that are susceptible to flooding, and we can now move forward T5. [902524] Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, on that. She will know that we have increased the Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Lab): Speaking of coverage under the Bellwin formula in terms of the messes, the Deputy Prime Minister went on LBC to money provided to councils that have had to spend defend the handling of the Royal Mail sale by saying more of their own resources to deal with this terrible that the Business Secretary is not a share price expert. emergency. Yes, of course we will need to work with the Will he now concede to this House that the Royal Mail insurance industry, businesses, the farming community was sold off too cheaply? and local authorities to ensure that proper coverage and compensation is provided. The Deputy Prime Minister: The point I was making then, and that my right hon. Friend the Business Secretary T3. [90252] Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): I has also made, is that the price was set following independent know the Deputy Prime Minister respects the Court in advice provided to him and to the Department for Strasbourg, but I also know that he respects the courts Business, Innovation and Skills. I do not think that and judges in this country. Therefore does he agree anybody here should be seeking to second guess the with Lord Justice Laws who recently said that treating advice that was received. I hope the hon. Gentleman Strasbourg decisions as authoritative represents a will join me in hoping that the Royal Mail will continue wrong turning in British law? to be a successful company, providing universal coverage of postal deliveries across the country. The Deputy Prime Minister: It is absolutely essential that we as a country always abide by the law and by our T6. [902525] Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): Last international legal commitments. The hon. Gentleman Friday, I held an export fair with UK Trade & Investment will know that an independent commission looked into at Sci-Tech’s enterprise zone in my constituency to the case for a UK Bill of Rights, of which he is a great encourage business and entrepreneurs to look at expanding advocate, and provided its final report in December into the export trade. Will my right hon. Friend set out 2012. It concluded that this was not the right time to what steps the Government have taken to encourage change the legal framework that governs the application small and medium-sized enterprises to work with local of human rights in this country and the translation of enterprise partnerships, enterprise zones and UKTI to the European convention, not least because of the promote growth and entrepreneurship? knock-on effect on the devolved judicial systems within the United Kingdom. The Deputy Prime Minister: I certainly want to welcome what the hon. Gentleman is doing with his local LEP T2. [902519] Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) and others. He is right that there are dangers in too (Lab): The Deputy Prime Minister will know that local much duplication—too many Government and non- authorities with the highest levels of deprivation are governmental bodies, quangos and other arm’s length facing unprecedented cuts. Will he assure the House bodies all aiming at the same objective. That is why the that the cost of securing individual voter registration Government have encouraged local authorities and LEPs will not be at the cost of council services aimed at to work together to create growth hubs in which there is supporting the poorest and most vulnerable in our a single port of call for businesses that want to access society and will be fully met by central Government? the assistance they need to improve exports for businesses in the local area. The Deputy Prime Minister: Those parts of the country where we have the highest number of under-registered T7. [902526] Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/ populations, such as student areas, will receive more Co-op): Does the Deputy Prime Minister agree that resources to do what is clearly a more resource-intensive London and the south-east are increasingly powerful job than in other areas. That will be reflected in the way compared with regional cities? Does he agree with in which the individual electoral registration system is Boris Johnson’s campaign, which would allow London funded. to retain an even greater share of taxes down in London and the south? T4. [902523] Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con): Will my right hon. Friend join me in welcoming the target set by The Deputy Prime Minister: I certainly agree with the Worcestershire local enterprise partnership of creating characterisation that over-centralisation, both economically 10,000 new apprenticeships by 2016? Those are real and politically, is a problem that has blighted our country jobs and real training for local people. for a very, very long time, which is why I would highlight the importance of city deals—the most radical cutting The Deputy Prime Minister: I will certainly join her in of the purse strings that have controlled the way in celebrating the work of Worcestershire LEP, and indeed which cities in the north of England and elsewhere the LEPs, businesses and local authorities up and down behave by the Treasury.It is a radical step in decentralisation, 699 Oral Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Oral Answers 700 as is the localising of business rates and the investment The Deputy Prime Minister: As I said earlier, when in HS2 to make sure that the north prospers in future this was looked at very carefully by a number of eminent just as much as the south. experts they concluded in December 2012 that it would not be right to undo or unwind a lot of the protections T8. [902527] Sir Andrew Stunell (Hazel Grove) (LD): that we all enjoy under existing human rights law, and Does my right hon. Friend agree that the electoral that a British Bill of Rights would run the risk of conduct report by the all-party group against anti- unpicking many of the protections enjoyed across the Semitism has provided useful recommendations on United Kingdom, given the fact that we have a fairly how we can conduct our election campaigns vigorously, devolved legal system. More generally, of course, this but without grossly discriminatory campaigning? Will sometimes poses difficult problems for the House and he agree to meet a deputation from that panel to discuss we have to wrestle with difficult issues, but it is worth its recommendations? reminding people that these are human rights for British citizens, and are already enshrined in British law. The Deputy Prime Minister: I certainly thank my right hon. Friend and the hon. Member for North East T12. [902531] Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) Derbyshire (Natascha Engel), the Chair of the Backbench (Lab): When the Deputy Prime Minister was getting Business Committee, and others for their report, which close to President Santos, did he mention the names is extremely good. We have looked closely at the Huber Ballesteros, Francisco Toloza, David Ravelo, recommendations, and I wrote to the Chair recently and did he inquire when those political prisoners might with my views both as a party leader and on behalf of be released from incarceration in Colombian prisons? the Government on how we can respond to them. Quite a lot of the recommendations, funnily enough, are enshrined in the Transparency of Lobbying, Non-party The Deputy Prime Minister: As I said to the hon. Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Act Gentleman in answer to an earlier question, of course I 2014, especially on non-party campaigning. A number discussed the need to improve human rights in Colombia. of other recommendations can be dealt with only with As he knows, President Santos is committed to embarking proper cross-party consensus, with political parties taking on a new human rights initiative during the course of action as political parties, and I very much hope that we this year. I urge the hon. Gentleman to ask the simple will all do that. question: if we want to protect human rights abroad as much as we do here—I think we share that view— Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): Has the Deputy surely one of the best ways to do that is to work hard Prime Minister seen the comments of the Parliamentary with other Governments, including President Santos’s Private Secretary to the Chancellor, who said on Monday Government, to create peace. If there is constant violence, that it is very difficult to protect human rights. “Nick Clegg complains quite often that Danny Alexander has gone native in the Treasury. I think there is some truth in the fact T11. [902530] Dan Byles (North Warwickshire) (Con): that he has gone native in the Treasury.” Does the Deputy Prime Minister agree that the Coventry He said: and Warwickshire city deal initiative could see tens of “The relationship between George and Danny Alexander is millions of pounds invested locally, which would build on very, very good.” the recent successes that we have seen in the automotive The Deputy Prime Minister will be aware of Stockholm supply chain industry and manufacturing industry, creating syndrome, in which captives increasingly empathise with jobs and boosting investment? their captives. What is he going to do to de-programme “the Treasury one”? The Deputy Prime Minister: I congratulate my hon. Friend on the excellent support that he has given to the The Deputy Prime Minister: I have just seen those Coventry and Warwickshire city deal, which we were quotes from the hon. Member for Reading East able finally to conclude. It is as a result of that deal and (Mr Wilson)—I am not sure if he is in the Chamber—who other initiatives that we will be able to support more claims that he is extremely close to the Chancellor, than 15,000 new jobs by 2025 and unlock £91 million of knows his mind and that he is his “wingman”. He is as public and private sector investment—yet another example good a wing man as Icarus was in flying off on his own of economic decentralisation that will help to create wings, judging by his comments. The Chief Secretary to jobs throughout the country. the Treasury is doing an outstanding job on behalf of the Government and the Liberal Democrats. Only last week he said that further cuts for the wealthiest in Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab): In order to serve society would happen over his dead body. That and so on a jury, one needs to be on the electoral register. Are many other examples show that his Liberal Democrat the Government increasing the maximum age for jurors heart is exactly where it should be. from 70 to 75 to make up the numbers of all those young people who will no longer be eligible to serve?

T10. [902529] Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): Does the Deputy Prime Minister share my concern that 75% The Deputy Prime Minister: The ambition is to increase of the British people tell pollsters that they think that the number of young people who are registered. A human rights are a charter for criminals and the number of Members have already mentioned the work undeserving? Is it not time that we introduced a British of Bite the Ballot and other organisations that are Bill of Rights with constitutional reform that gives the campaigning hard to do that. If we get individual voter final say back to the Supreme Court? registration right, as I hope we will—which was first 701 Oral Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Oral Answers 702 proposed by the Labour Government, not the coalition and nearly £10 million to fund an implementation support Government—levels of registration in under-registered service. I think that will be a great progressive step populations should increase rather than decrease. towards helping children who do not get a healthy meal get one and to help their education. T13. [902532] Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con): As I am sure my right hon. Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): People Friend knows, last Wednesday was Bite the Ballot from ethnic minority backgrounds are as likely to vote national voter registration day, designed to engage with as the population as a whole if they are registered, but the 4 million young people who are missing from our registration rates are much lower among certain ethnic register. What actions will he take to engage those minority communities. Can the Deputy Prime Minister people and get them registered, such as perhaps say what is being done specifically to encourage people emulating the schools initiative in Northern Ireland? from ethnic minority backgrounds to vote, particularly under individual voter registration? The Deputy Prime Minister: As was said earlier, we announced last week that five national organisations The Deputy Prime Minister: Yes, I can. The £4.5 million and every local authority in Great Britain will be sharing that I mentioned earlier was allocated only a few days £4.2 million-worth of new resources to maximise ago to all local authorities and to a number of organisations. registration. As my hon. Friend mentioned schools, it is Their work will be tested against the objective of helping worth remembering that next September a new citizenship black and minority ethnic groups, students and others programme will be taught that stipulates that pupils in who are under-represented on the register be more fully schools should learn about parliamentary democracy represented on it. That is what that money and that and citizenship more widely. That is another opportunity work is for, and I hope that it will be successful. to raise the profile of the importance of getting young people registered on the electoral roll. Mr Simon Burns (Chelmsford) (Con): What specific measures, rather than general ones, have been put in Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab): The Deputy Prime Minister place to make it easier, quicker and cheaper to remove promised this week that there will be no politicisation of people from the electoral register who legally should Ofsted, so will he take this opportunity to restore some not be on it? of the public confidence that has been lost in recent days and give the House an assurance that the major The Deputy Prime Minister: I think that awareness of Conservative party donor, Theodore Agnew, will not be the integrity of the register has increased significantly. appointed as chair of Ofsted, which the Education The work that I have already alluded to, and indeed the Secretary is reportedly trying to achieve? introduction of individual voter registration, is all about improving the integrity of the register to ensure that The Deputy Prime Minister: I can certainly reassure those who should not be on it are not on it. Ultimately, the hon. Lady and the House that any appointments to that is what individual voter registration is all about— Ofsted, or indeed any other important public bodies, bearing down on fraud and improving the integrity of will conform to the code for the appointment to public the register. bodies, and that the panel that is being established to put forward candidates for that new Ofsted position will be entirely independent and will be asked to propose Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab): In Scotland, candidates based only on merit. There will be no political 16 and 17-year-olds are about to vote for the first time interference in the creation of the short-list of candidates this year. Does the Deputy Prime Minister agree that whatsoever. there is inconsistency in the voting age across the UK and, if so, what does he intend to do to address it? Gordon Birtwistle (Burnley) (LD): Last week, I visited Wellfield school in my constituency, an excellent junior The Deputy Prime Minister: As the hon. Gentleman school that fully supports the Government’s plans for knows, I am an advocate of votes at 16. People can do free school meals. Its problem is that it does not have a all sorts of things at age 16 or 17, such as paying taxes facility within the school to provide those meals. It has and serving in the armed forces, but they cannot vote. spoken to the county council and the diocese, but it is That is why my party will remain a staunch advocate of getting nowhere with them. Will my right hon. Friend votes at 16. As my hon. Friend said earlier, we have not meet me, or ask his Education Secretary to meet me, to agreed that across the coalition, but I hope that it will try to resolve the problem before the plans are introduced happen eventually. in September? Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): Does the The Deputy Prime Minister: I will certainly ask a Deputy Prime Minister believe that the level of immigration Minister in the Department for Education to meet my into this country is too high, too low or about right? hon. Friend to discuss that. As he knows, we have set aside £1 billion in revenue funding to deliver that next The Deputy Prime Minister: I do not think that there September so that all young children in the first three is a magical number. I think that the key to encouraging years of primary school get a healthy meal at lunch public confidence in the immigration system is ensuring time, which raises educational standards and helps close that it is tough where it needs to be—stamping out the attainment gap, as study after study have shown. In abuse, cutting out the loopholes, ensuring that illegal addition—this addresses his point—we have set aside immigration is diminishing and counting people in as £150 million in capital investment to improve kitchen well as out, which is why I am so keen to reintroduce the and dining facilities for schools that do not have them exit checks that previous Governments removed—but 703 Oral Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Oral Answers 704 at the same time remaining open for business, because The Solicitor-General: On the subject of information we are nothing as an economy if we are not open to the sharing, tomorrow the judges in Newcastle are meeting rest of the world. all the local authorities to try to agree a way forward. There are certainly no current plans to change the Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): The anonymity rules. If the hon. Lady wants to discuss this Deputy Prime Minister’s rhetoric on electoral registration with me, I would be more than happy to do so. might carry a bit more weight if his own local council followed his advice. Is he aware that in Stockport, in the Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con): wards that I represent, electoral registration is 20% My hon. and learned Friend knows how important below the level in the Tameside wards? What is he going information sharing is in this very sensitive area. He is to do to ensure that Liberal Democrat Stockport gets no doubt aware of the successful conviction of the its act together? former head teacher of Caldicott preparatory school the week before last in my constituency. Will he join me The Deputy Prime Minister: I can see how angry the in paying tribute to Mr Tom Perry, who revealed his hon. Gentleman is about that—[Interruption.] As he own historical child abuse to enable this prosecution to should be, as Opposition Front Benchers say portentously go forward? What encouragement can he give to Mr Perry from a sedentary position. He should welcome the and his colleagues as regards the Government looking £4.5 million that we recently allocated to the five favourably on mandatory reporting for regulated activities, organisations working nationally and to all local authorities which could help to protect more of our children in precisely to address the issue he highlights. future?

The Solicitor-General: This was an horrendous case, ATTORNEY-GENERAL and, like my right hon. Friend, I pay tribute to Tom Perry for his courage. She is absolutely right about information sharing and, as I said in response to the The Attorney-General was asked— right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), it is important to have these local protocols in place so that information Child Abuse is shared expeditiously from the very beginning. We believe that that will happen; certainly, very good progress 1. Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): How many local is being made. We will look at the results of the survey authorities have signed up to the information-sharing and at that point we will be able to see where we stand. protocol for cases of child abuse launched in November 2013 by the Director of Public Prosecutions. [902533] Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): On child abuse, is any progress being made on prosecutions for 5. Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab): How female genital mutilation? Is the Solicitor-General aware many local authorities have signed up to the information- of the disappointment felt by so many people all round sharing protocol for cases of child abuse launched in the country that so far it seems that this issue is not November 2013 by the Director of Public Prosecutions. being taken seriously enough? Can we expect prosecutions [902538] in the near future? The Solicitor-General (Oliver Heald): The national protocol came into force on 1 January this year. The The Solicitor-General: I thank the hon. Gentleman aim is for all parties to sign a local protocol as soon as for that question, because this is a very important issue. possible. The Crown Prosecution Service intends to Ministers met non-governmental organisations last week carry out a survey of all CPS areas to monitor progress. to discuss how to make progress. A number of things are happening. He will know that the Crown Prosecution Mr Hanson: If the voluntary approach does not Service is currently reviewing 10 cases, and it is very produce the goods that the Minister and the Opposition much hoped that it will be possible to ground a prosecution. wish to see, will he consider making it compulsory for However, the key thing is that one does need evidence, local authorities to sign such protocols, given the importance so it is very important that the information gathering of the issue? In particular, will he discuss it in my area for the sort of evidence that is needed for a successful with the National Assembly for Wales? prosecution is found and pursued. Every effort is being made, and I have recently visited all the units concerned. The Solicitor-General: It is very important that local protocols should be signed so that there is a clear, Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) seamless process and when an investigation starts the (Lab): Child abuse and rape prosecutions are falling information is shared with the other authorities. A draft because the agencies are not working together. I have protocol has now been sent to contacts in all the local uncovered the fact that local authorities are not disclosing authorities in the right hon. Gentleman’s area, and information to police and prosecutors and the fact that discussions are continuing. It is thought that it will be the police are referring fewer and fewer cases to prosecutors. possible to have the protocol signed by the middle of We now need to know what the Solicitor-General and March. his brother and sister Ministers are going to do to show some leadership on this issue. Are the Government Mrs Glindon: Given that openness and information doing nothing about it because violence against women sharing are key to prosecuting these cases, what assurance and girls is not a priority for them, or because the 27% can the Solicitor-General give that the Government will cuts to the CPS and the loss of a quarter of its lawyers resist calls to introduce suspect anonymity in cases of mean that the Solicitor-General is resigned to the idea historical child abuse and rape? that more and more cases are going to be dropped? 705 Oral Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Oral Answers 706

The Solicitor-General: It is sad to hear the hon. Lady The Attorney-General (Mr Dominic Grieve): In September traduce the Crown Prosecution Service in that way. The 2012, the Prime Minister established a taskforce to fact is that we have the highest ever level of conviction speed up our efforts to return stolen assets to the people rates for rape, for domestic violence and for child abuse, of Egypt, Libya and Tunisia. The Metropolitan Police and the people who are prosecuting these cases are Service is currently investigating a number of specific doing an excellent job. She knows that we are investigating cases alongside its Egyptian counterparts. At international fully, through a six-point plan, why referrals are falling level, we used our G8 presidency last year to promote in some parts of the country, but the idea that the that agenda. That included co-hosting an international Crown Prosecution Service can be criticised when it is conference in Marrakesh on asset recovery last October, doing the best it has ever done in terms of conviction which I attended. rates is quite wrong. Shared Legal Service Mark Menzies: Will my right hon. and learned Friend confirm that this Government have been at the forefront 2. Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con): What of helping with the issue, particularly with regard to recent discussions he has had with the Treasury returning stolen assets to Egypt, and that that was key Solicitor on the development of a shared legal service. at the Arab Forum on asset recovery? [R] [902534]

The Attorney-General (Mr Dominic Grieve): Ihave The Attorney-General: Yes, I can confirm that we regular discussions with the Treasury Solicitor, Sir Paul have been at the forefront of asset recovery efforts. A Jenkins, on matters of mutual interest. Sir Paul is the number of priority cases have been identified with the architect of the shared legal service, which has led to a Egyptian authorities. UK investigators have opened much improved organisation and streamlining of the domestic money laundering investigations into individuals Government legal service. I trust that that will continue. with significant assets in the UK and they are in daily Sir Paul has been a Government lawyer for 35 years. He contact with their Egyptian counterparts. I hope that will retire at the end of the month and I would like to that will improve with some secondments to Egypt take this opportunity to thank him for his major shortly. contribution to this issue, for his years of service to the Government legal service and, indeed, for helping the The Arab Forum on asset recovery allowed us an good governance of our country. opportunity to have an overall discussion about the issue. One of the difficulties is a lack of understanding Jake Berry: I draw the House’s attention to my in some countries about the due process of law that has declaration in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. to be gone through in order for recovery to take place. I Will my right hon. and learned Friend set out what hope, therefore, that the conference facilitated a greater benefits will be gained from sharing legal services across understanding of that. Government Departments? The Attorney-General: Sharing legal services brings Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): A National considerable benefits in greater flexibility and reliance; Audit Office report on the proceeds of crime shows more efficient deployment of legal resources, including that, as a result of poor co-ordination and a lack of specialist expertise; and more opportunities for savings leadership, out of every £100 generated in the criminal and improved knowledge sharing. It also provides a economy, as much as £99.64 is retained by the perpetrator. more coherent legal service for Government as a whole What is the Attorney-General doing to address those and good career development opportunities for lawyers, findings so that victims in north African and middle and it improves the legal support to individual Departments. eastern emerging democracies can get their— Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that one area of Mr Speaker: Order. We are fully seized of the purport expertise that could be improved by shared legal service of the hon. Gentleman’s inquiry at just about the same is that of awareness of and consistent access to expertise time as he has become seized himself. in forms of alternative dispute resolution, such as mediation, which should be available to all Government Departments? The Attorney-General: The hon. Gentleman shows The Attorney-General: I agree entirely with my some ingenuity in linking his question to that asked by hon. Friend. That is precisely the benefit of bringing my hon. Friend the Member for Fylde (Mark Menzies). the legal advisers from different Departments into I assure the hon. Gentleman that asset recovery is given one organisation. There is now a single board that a high priority and that a taskforce within Government groups those people together in the Treasury Solicitor’s is looking at how we can improve it overall. There are a Department, and I am confident it can deliver savings, number of interesting challenges, which go back long lower charging costs for Departments—we have already before this Government came into office. For example, seen that—and greater efficiency and expertise in-house. there is a mismatch between the amounts ordered to be seized and the actual realisable amounts and, in some Stolen Assets (Repatriation) cases, the orders made bear very little relation to the assets available. We are looking at all those things and 3. Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con): What steps the seeking to prioritise how we can identify those assets Government are taking to ensure the repatriation of that can best be recovered. I would be happy to write to stolen assets to emerging democracies in the middle the hon. Gentleman about that so that he can be brought east and north Africa. [902535] up to date on our thinking. 707 Oral Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Oral Answers 708

Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): guidance” for prosecutors about bail applications. Has In relation to repatriation from north Africa and the that happened, because people on bail too often go on middle east, the Attorney-General will know that, in to reoffend? 2012, 500 children were abducted from the United Kingdom contrary to UK court orders and taken to The Solicitor-General: The guidance on that area is countries in such areas. What steps have been taken and being worked on at present, but I will certainly ensure what discussions have taken place with those countries that the hon. Lady’s concern is reflected back. about returning the children to the United Kingdom? Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): The The Attorney-General: This matter does not fall within law of diminished responsibility very often depends on my departmental responsibility, and it would be best for expert evidence from psychiatrists. In complex cases, my hon. Friend to raise that with the Ministry of decisions about such important offences are far too Justice. I accept that there are areas of real difficulty in often made at the last minute. Is my hon. and learned respect of children who are abducted, but that complex Friend happy about existing protocols in relation to issue above all involves international co-operation and making sure that psychiatric evidence can be agreed at respect for the orders made by family courts in other the earliest possible opportunity, and that the consequences countries. of important decisions based on that evidence can be explained in ordinary English to the families of the Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): Does the victims? Attorney-General have any estimate of the amount of stolen assets that might be in this country? The Solicitor-General: My hon. Friend makes the very important point that the bereaved should meet the The Attorney-General: It is probably foolish to engage prosecutor post-charge and pre-trial. As I said a moment in speculation about precise figures, but I will simply ago, the troubled issue of the meaning of a recognised say that it is recognised that there are likely to be mental condition in these circumstances should be examined substantial sums in this country. in a challenging way by Crown prosecutors. Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): These are very Mr Speaker: I think we will take that as a no. serious and complex cases. Does the Solicitor-General propose to look at sentencing guidelines for cases where Domestic Homicide it is found that any of the parties involved suffers from a mental illness? 4. Priti Patel (Witham) (Con): What recent discussions he has had with the Crown Prosecution The Solicitor-General: As the right hon. Gentleman Service on the use of diminished responsibility defences will know, there are guideline cases dealing with in domestic homicide cases. [902536] manslaughter. The judge has to have discretion because, as he will know only too well, there are cases in which The Solicitor-General (Oliver Heald): The CPS is the mental condition is suddenly there and an incident working to strengthen its approach to domestic homicide occurs that is totally out of character for the accused. In cases, particularly where the partial defence of diminished those cases, adequate discretion needs to be available. responsibility is raised. Foreign Offenders (Removal) Priti Patel: My hon. and learned Friend will be aware that domestic homicide trials where the defence is one 6. David Wright (Telford) (Lab): What recent steps he of diminished responsibility deteriorate into character has taken to promote awareness among prosecutors of assassinations of the victim, rather than focusing on the the tools available to secure the removal from the UK facts of the case. Will he say what steps the CPS is of low-level foreign offenders. [902539] taking to mitigate that issue, particularly to reduce the trauma to victims and their families? The Attorney-General (Mr Dominic Grieve): The Crown Prosecution Service has worked with the Association of The Solicitor-General: I pay tribute to my hon. Friend Chief Police Officers and the UK Border Force to for her work on homicide as a subject, and I agree with develop joint guidance for the foreign national offender her. The Crown Prosecution Services needs to take and conditional caution scheme in advance of its introduction will take a challenging attitude in three areas. The first in April 2013. Prosecutors are advised that where the is unwarranted attacks on the deceased’s character. The criteria are met, there is a strong public interest in second is the need to emphasise the context of domestic issuing a conditional caution to foreign national offenders. violence, which is an aggregating feature, and to bring out evidence about the true dynamics of the relationship, David Wright: I understand that 20 cautions were so that such cases are treated as cases of domestic issued in the six months from April 2013 and that violence. The third is that the CPS should be aware that 13 were successful in removing the offender. What happened the existence of a recognised mental condition does not to the other seven? necessarily mean that it amounts to an abnormality of mental functioning sufficient for grounds of diminished The Attorney-General: It is important that the hon. responsibility. Gentleman understands that any decision to go down that road pre-charge is for the police to make, not for Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): The “Domestic the CPS. The CPS can be consulted and after charge, Homicide Reviews” lessons learned paper published when it is reviewing cases, it may identify cases that it last year stated that the CPS was “looking to strengthen can recommend should go down that route and have the 709 Oral Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Oral Answers 710 charges dropped. I cannot tell him what happened to The Solicitor-General (Oliver Heald): The CPS has the other seven; I shall try to find out and write to him. led progress in implementing digital working with other It is desirable that the project be taken forward. It is not criminal justice agencies. It is estimated that most police without difficulty: there are human rights issues, and forces are now transferring 90% of case files electronically often people say they are asylum seekers or have claimed and that savings of £30 million a year can be achieved asylum and therefore cannot be removed. That said, the by 2015-16. fact that even that small number of people have been removed seems to me to be a step in the right direction. Mr Burns: Are the other parts of the criminal justice system being as proactive as the CPS in developing and Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): What happens increasing digital working? when those foreigners have been repatriated? Are they allowed automatically to come back to this country at a The Solicitor-General: Yes, all parts of the criminal later date, or are they banned from returning? justice system are embracing digitalisation, with Essex and Chelmsford playing a key role. Essex police lead on The Attorney-General: Generally speaking, they are the development of the Athena digital police system—the banned from returning to the United Kingdom, at least largest ever collaboration on a police IT project, taking for a period of time. It depends on the nature of the a case from report to court—and Chelmsford is piloting offence: in some cases, the offence will be an immigration court wi-fi and clickshare video. offence and may lead to a ban for a period of time; a serious criminal offence is likely to lead to a ban for Mr Speaker: I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman ever. is pleased to represent the new white heat of the technological revolution. Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Last week, the Government introduced a new provision in the Immigration Serious Fraud Office (Overseas Co-operation) Bill allowing the Home Secretary to remove the British citizenship of people from other countries who have 8. Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): In what ways the been naturalised. In cases where the individual is resident Serious Fraud Office co-operates with prosecutors in this country, what will happen to them? Will they be overseas; and if he will make a statement. [902541] banished from the realm? Will they be exiled, and if so, where to? The Attorney-General (Mr Dominic Grieve): The Serious Fraud Office co-operates with prosecutors overseas during The Attorney-General: I think the hon. Gentleman joint investigations, SFO investigations with which overseas has taken a slightly simplistic view. The measure passed prosecutors can assist, building capacity internationally, by the House returns us to the status quo ante 2006, and executing requests for legal assistance when asked which allows for such a power to be exercised by the to do so by the Home Office. Home Secretary. Obviously, if that power is to be exercised it has to be exercised bearing in mind, first, whether the Clive Efford: Can the Attorney-General say what person may obtain another nationality, and secondly, discussions he has had with America regarding the whether they can be deported. A number of criteria extradition of people who may be guilty of fixing the can be brought into play before a decision is made on LIBOR? Progress is lacking in prosecuting people involved such a case. in LIBOR-fixing; does this increase the likelihood of their being extradited? Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): The cost to the taxpayer of every 1,000 prisoners kept on the The Attorney-General: The Serious Fraud Office is in prison estate is £28 million. What work has my right touch frequently with its United States counterparts in hon. and learned Friend done and what advice has he respect of investigations that have a transnational given the Home Office and Ministry of Justice to expedite dimension. I will not talk about a specific case, but bilateral agreements with countries such as Ireland and looking at the matter hypothetically, in such circumstances Poland to bring about the quick removal of foreign it will be decided in which jurisdiction a prosecution national offenders? would best be brought. The hon. Gentleman will be aware that a LIBOR investigation is progressing in this The Attorney-General: I am not allowed to say what I country. There are also investigations in the United do or do not advise on, but in countries such as Ireland States. From what I know of the matter, I am satisfied and Poland—signatories to the European convention that there will be good co-operation between the two on human rights and fellow members of the EU—it jurisdictions to ensure that any alleged criminality is ought to be possible by bilateral dialogue to speed up brought to justice. the removal of prisoners from the United Kingdom, either to serve the rest of their sentence in their country Law of Contempt of origin, or deporting them at the end of their sentence. 9. James Wharton (Stockton South) (Con): What Digital Working recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Justice on reform of the law of contempt. 7. Mr Simon Burns (Chelmsford) (Con): What [902542] assessment he has made of the effects of increased digital working by the Crown Prosecution Service; and The Attorney-General (Mr Dominic Grieve): I met the what estimate he has made of the savings to the public Justice Secretary recently to discuss proposals for reforming purse as a result of that increase. [902540] the law of contempt. The proposals will implement 711 Oral Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Oral Answers 712 recommendations that were made by the Law Commission five jurors. Four of those cases involved the misuse of and have been included in the Criminal Justice and the internet, including using the internet to conduct Courts Bill. I strongly support the reforms, which include research. In two of those cases, social media were used the creation of criminal offences for jury misconduct. If to commit the contempt. As a result of those proceedings, enacted, the legislation will reform the contempt law judicial directions to jurors have been revised and that is applicable to publication contempt, with the aim strengthened. The purpose of those prosecutions is to of providing greater clarity and certainty for the media send out a clear message about the unacceptability of and the courts about when material that is published such behaviour and, thereby, to ensure that further online should be removed when proceedings are active. prosecutions are not necessary. By turning it into a straightforward criminal offence, we will make quite James Wharton: What success has my right hon. and clear the gravity of the matter, while also providing learned Friend had in prosecuting jurors who ignore statutory defences. judges’ pre-trial advice, particularly with regard to the unlawful use of social media? Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con) rose—

The Attorney-General: Since coming to office, the Mr Speaker: We will hear very shortly from the man Solicitor-General, his predecessor, my hon. and learned in the conker-coloured suit. I look forward to that, as Friend the Member for Harborough (Sir Edward Garnier), does the House. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will and I have successfully instituted proceedings against bear with me for a moment. 713 11 FEBRUARY 2014 714

Point of Order Additional Charges for Utility Bills not Paid by Direct Debit (Limits) 12.37 pm Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): On a point No. 23) of order, Mr Speaker. The first business on today’s Order Paper is entitled, “Oral Questions to the Deputy Prime Minister”. Twelve substantive questions are then 12.38 pm listed. However, during questions, the Minister of State, Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): I beg to move, Cabinet Office, my right hon. Friend the Member for That leave be given to bring in a Bill to limit levels of additional Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark) was on his feet for most amounts charged by utility companies on bills not paid by direct of the time. The Deputy Prime Minister answered only debit; and for connected purposes. one question. If we were to change the rules so that we The purpose of the Bill is very simple. Energy companies had Minister of State questions, that would be fine, but should not charge people excessive amounts for the I would have thought that it is discourteous to the energy they use just because of how the consumer House if the Deputy Prime Minister does not respond prefers to pay. Energy bills continue to rise. Gas bills to his own questions. have gone up by 43% since 2007. Many families are struggling to pay the high prices. To the Government’s Mr Speaker: The hon. Gentleman is an ingenious credit, they have taken some important steps to help parliamentarian and he has made his point in his own ease the pressure, such as forcing companies to put way. He will know that the distribution of questions customers on the lowest possible tariff, providing a among Ministers is entirely a matter for them; it is not a rebate to every domestic electricity customer, and reducing matter for me. I have never regarded the Deputy Prime bills by £130 for 2 million of the poorest householders Minister as a shy or reticent individual. I doubt that he who are most in need. is ever cowed into quietude by the hon. Gentleman. The hon. Gentleman’s point has been registered and doubtless One month ago, a pensioner in my constituency told he will correspond with the Deputy Prime Minister on me that her energy company had written to her to say the matter. If I stretch my imagination to its limit, he that she would be charged an extra £63 per year unless might even have a cup of tea with the Deputy Prime she started paying by direct debit. She has always paid Minister to discuss the matter. [Interruption.] We really on time. Her relative then tried to pay online, but was are indulging in flights of fancy, I fear, but the point has charged the same amount, giving the lie to the reasons been made and I am glad that the House is in good given by the energy companies of there being an extra humour. administrative charge. I spoke to the energy company concerned, which told me that it charges less than most other companies, so I looked into all energy companies across the UK. Out of 26 companies that responded, five allow their customers to pay only by direct debit, while 17 charge their customers different rates, depending on the method they use to pay. Only four companies charge their consumers the same whether they pay by direct debit or not. The companies involved say that they have to charge more due to increased costs, and all reasonable people would accept that there will be additional costs and genuine administrative charges if someone does not pay by direct debit. I had a meeting with the Post Office, however, which said that the administrative charges of sending out a bill should not amount to more than 19p per head. Some companies have added not 19p but as much as £390 more to the bills of those not paying by direct debit, and the average charge was around £80 more per year. Figures from the Department of Energy and Climate Change show that people who do not pay by direct debit tend to spend £114 more per year, and those who use a prepayment meter even more than that. Even worse, many of the companies that charge extra did not say they were adding a surcharge, but rather that they were “discounting” the bills of those who use direct debit because they incur lower costs. That is a bit like calling a mortuary a negative patients output. Although many people do not pay by direct debit, they are often among the most poor and vulnerable. Since starting this campaign, I have been inundated with letters from pensioners who have told me that they are hit by these extra charges. They all pay on time, but they do not like direct debit as they feel it does not give 715 Additional Charges for Utility Bills 11 FEBRUARY 2014 Additional Charges for Utility Bills 716 not Paid by Direct Debit (Limits) not Paid by Direct Debit (Limits) [Robert Halfon] not believe that prices will increase. In fact, since Members across the House began to conduct this campaign, First them control over their finances. They say that they put Utility has announced, only last week, that it is dropping their money aside and do not want to get into debt by its price for people who do not pay by direct debit from overspending. It is not just pensioners—anyone on a £96 to £24; in essence, to my recommended £2 a month, limited income might feel the same—and with the recent but with no price increase elsewhere. financial crisis in mind, that is exactly the sort of In conclusion, the Bill calls for a thorough investigation personal responsibility we should be encouraging. Some by the Government and Ofgem into what has been people do not have access to proper banking facilities going on; real transparency for consumers, so that and are therefore unable to take advantage of certain consumers can understand why they are being charged payment methods. Nearly 2 million households in the so much if they do not pay by direct debit; and a cap of UK do not have access to a bank account that has an about £2 a month on the amount that companies can overdraft facility, and half a million of those do not charge. I commend the Bill to the House. even have access to a basic bank account that can accept direct payments. Those households are vulnerable and have extremely limited options over how they pay. 12.46 pm It is wrong that they should be penalised. Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): I commend my hon. The energy companies say, first, that their charges are Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) for his cost reflective, and they back up that claim by saying campaigning zeal and for bringing to light another issue that it forms part of the conditions of their licence. As I that has much popular support. He is renowned for have said, I have no problem with a small administrative such campaigns. I guess that if I am renowned for charge to reflect the extra cost that companies face anything, which probably is not much, it is probably for processing a cheque, but I do not believe that the for sticking up for unpopular and unfashionable causes. £390 charged by Spark Energy, despite my conversations Hence, I felt that the other side of this particular with it, is in any way reflective of the cost of sending out argument deserved a hearing. paper bills. Although the market has since changed, it is First, I want to look at what is covered in the Bill. worth noting that in 2008 Ofgem stated in a report that The motion refers to utility bills, but my hon. Friend the annual cost to companies of a standard credit seems to have concentrated on energy companies. I do customer was just £25 higher than a direct debit customer. not think he believes there is an issue in relation to Even then, it expressed concerns that those charges water companies, and he praised telecommunication were not proportional. companies, so I presume the Bill is about energy companies. Secondly, energy companies say that they need to Looking at the Monopoly board, I cannot think of any charge more because of the extra cost of providing other utilities that it could apply to, if it does not apply credit to customers. If something is paid for retrospectively to water and telecommunications. there will, of course, be an extra cost, but many companies My hon. Friend’s motion refers to additional amounts that charge for services retrospectively charge customers charged for paying by direct debit. As I understand it, far less for not paying by direct debit than energy companies however, the difference in amounts is actually a discount —for instance, BT charges £24 a year. Furthermore, for paying by direct debit, rather than an additional companies should be able to meet some of these extra charge for paying by alternative methods. This is an costs themselves, and those currently paying for their important point, because the presumption is that if the energy by direct debit often pay too much. Figures from gap were narrowed between paying by direct debit and Go Compare show that one in five accounts of energy paying by other means, that would inevitably mean that consumers are more than £100 in credit. Energy companies the costs would be levelled down. It is quite possible, sit on that money and gain significant interest from it. however, that if we prevent these discounts, the cost to That does not take into account the extraordinary consumers will be levelled up and nobody will be better profits that some energy companies have been making, off. We will find that people paying by direct debit are and I am glad that the Minister is looking into their made worse off, and I do not think that is particularly profit margins. helpful to anybody. The third argument is that the difference in price is The reduction for paying by direct debit is lauded by due to the discount that energy companies offer to many people, including the regulator Ofgem, as well as customers who pay by direct debit. As I said, however, it consumer rights champions, such as Martin Lewis of is not a discount; it is a premium on the 45% of people moneysavingexpert.com and Which?, which states: who do not pay by direct debit. “The cheapest way to pay for energy is almost always monthly The fourth argument is that those who do not pay by direct debit, as most energy companies offer a discount to those direct debit are more of a credit risk. Depending on the who pay for energy in this way.” company, about half of the premium of not paying by The benefits of direct debit payment are widely accepted. direct debit is made up of paying for bad debt. Is it just For example, councils in London, including, I think, that those who always pay on time, such as the elderly Islington and Westminster, have offered council tax constituent I mentioned, have to pay for other people payers the chance to win £25,000 simply for switching who are late payers or who do not pay on time? to payment by direct debit. There are good reasons why Furthermore, this argument cannot be used for those direct debit payments are encouraged. They help with who use prepayment meters, and therefore pay in advance. monthly budgeting, especially in these difficult times, Finally, there is the argument that introducing a cap and avoid the need for people to find bigger amounts of will result in prices increasing for everyone. I believe in money in one go. They reduce the risk of the customer competition and I welcome the fact that the Government being cut off for non-payment and having to face huge have extended competition in the energy market. I do penalties, or even the bailiffs, for not paying their bills 717 Additional Charges for Utility Bills 11 FEBRUARY 2014 Additional Charges for Utility Bills 718 not Paid by Direct Debit (Limits) not Paid by Direct Debit (Limits) on time. They save the provider extra costs incurred to pay so much for their energy, when they are exactly administering the payments and the debts that build up the same people who piled extra costs on to people’s on accounts, which ultimately they have to pass on to energy bills by passing law after law pursuing some someone, whether through increased bills or the loss of climate change ideology. Most energy bills nowadays staff. Paying by direct debit is probably the easiest, contain more than £100 a year simply because of the quickest and cheapest way for people to pay, and companies policy decisions made by the same people who complain and councils should be free to encourage this practice that energy bills are too high and should be reduced by with monetary incentives if they wish to do so. about £100. That nerve and hypocrisy is the type of I think that my hon. Friend’s proposed Bill is unnecessary, thing that does politics no credit whatsoever and makes because the power is already there to do what he wishes, my blood boil. should the regulator wish to use it. I think he mentioned I want lower energy bills. That is why I am proud to this briefly. Ofgem writes: have been one of the five MPs who voted against the “Ofgem has introduced new rules which prohibit undue Climate Change Act 2008 in the previous Parliament. It discrimination between consumers. One of these rules ensures certainly is not becoming for the Leader of the Opposition that terms and conditions for energy supply do not treat any to claim to be the friend of people who pay energy group of customers differently without justification. The other bills when he did more than most to bump up energy rule requires that any difference in price between payment methods bills with his Climate Change Act. Funnily enough, the offered by a supplier should reflect the costs they incur for providing that payment method.” £113 typically added to bills by climate change policies is roughly the same as the average discount given to It seems to me, therefore, that we do not need a new law people paying by direct debit. If we want to reduce along these lines. He merely needs to ask Ofgem to do everybody’s bills by the £113 that my hon. Friend seeks its job properly, if he feels it is not already doing that, by for people who pay other than by direct debit, the enforcing the existing rules. The power is already there; easiest way to do it would be to scrap all this nonsense we do not need a new law to do what can already be on climate change—this gesture politics that will not done. make a blind bit of difference to global temperatures, My hon. Friend talked about people who pay bills but which makes a massive difference to people’s energy promptly and who should not be penalised for not bills. paying by direct debit. I agree wholeheartedly. In the past, some companies, including British Gas, offered On that basis, I commend my hon. Friend for bringing their customers a prompt payment discount, no matter this matter to the attention of the House, but on the how they paid their bill—even if they paid other than whole it is undesirable and certainly unnecessary. I do through direct debit—but that discount was scrapped not intend to divide the House, but I thought it was because Ofgem insisted on it as part of its retail market worth while ensuring that the alternative view was at review. If he wants to help customers who choose to pay least heard so that people can make an informed decision other than by direct debit but who are good customers about whether, after all of that, they agree with his Bill. who pay promptly, he should encourage the regulator to Question put and agreed to. allow companies to reintroduce the prompt payment Ordered, discount, which many used in the first place. That would be of great help to many of the customers he That Robert Halfon, Tracey Crouch, Jackie Doyle-Price, wishes to target with his Bill. Charlie Elphicke, Stephen McPartland, Albert Owen, Mark Durkan, Lady Hermon, Mr Elfyn Llwyd, Ian Many things get on my nerves in this House, but what Swales and Henry Smith present the Bill. does so more than most is politicians—I do not include my hon. Friend in this criticism; it is directed at others—who Robert Halfon accordingly presented the Bill. complain about excessive energy bills and talk about Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on fuel poverty and how disgraceful it is that people have Friday 28 February, and to be printed (Bill 173). 719 11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 720

19th century, he contributed to the work of a Committee Opposition Day of this House that was investigating the Poor Law. He called for a society of complete equality, and set about [20TH ALLOTTED DAY] trying to create one with the communities that he had established. Fairness and Inequality Wales was, of course, the incubator of the industrial revolution, and the working-class uprisings of Merthyr Mr Speaker: I can inform the House that no amendment in 1831 and the Chartists later in the same decade were has been selected to the motion. driven by that Welsh aspiration for a more equal society, in which the working classes had a fair share of the 12.56 pm proceeds of wealth generated by their toil. As the central Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) element of his proclamation “The Red Dragon and the (PC): Hywel Dda, a native of the west of my country, is Red Flag”, Keir Hardie, a proud Scotsman who became one of the most esteemed early kings of Wales. His the first-ever Independent Labour party Member of main historical contribution was that he codified early Parliament, declared clearly—probably after having given Welsh law. It is no coincidence that the building that up faith in this place—that the way in which to create a houses National Assembly Members, the Welsh national more fair and equal society in Wales was to advance the Parliament, Ty Hywel, is named after him. His name is cause of Welsh home rule. translated into English as “Hywel the Good”. He is so known because his laws were visionary, based on Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): There compassion rather than punishment, and were seen as are many inequalities in present-day society, but one of just. In particular, early Welsh law clearly recognised the biggest burdens at present is borne by women. The the contribution of women to society, offering clear Government have made tax adjustments of £14 billion, legal protections and status in society. and £11 billion of that has been taken from women. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that women are the Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): I once hardest hit, whether we are talking about crèche charges prepared a thesis on Hywel Dda. Did my hon. Friend or about nursery charges? know that back in 998 there were laws in Wales allowing women to own property? Unfortunately, our friends in England only caught up in 1882. Jonathan Edwards: I do not disagree with that at all. Some of my colleagues may wish later to expand on Jonathan Edwards: I am grateful to my right hon. what the hon. Gentleman has said Friend. He makes my point for me, and his knowledge on these matters is unsurpassed. Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): My hon. Friend In 928, Hywel made a pilgrimage to Rome. On his has made an excellent start to his speech. I do not know return, he held a legal conference in my home country whether he has had an opportunity to read the first of Carmarthenshire, at Ty Gwyn ar Daf, his residence report from the Living Wage Commission, which was near Whitland on the Pembrokeshire borders, which led published yesterday. It contains a number of key points to the legal system practised in Wales before our country which I think are important in the context of the was regrettably conquered. His laws meant that those debate. It states that 6.7 million of the 13 million people higher up the social spectrum paid more for their crimes—a in poverty in the UK are in a family where someone reverse of the post-2008 financial crash situation in the works, that 5.24 million workers in Britain—equal to UK, where the financial elite have got off scot free while 21% of the work force—are paid less than the living the most disadvantaged in society are paying the price wage, that housing costs have tripled in the last 15 years, through the obliteration of the public services and that 2.9 million people classed as over-indebted have a support they depend on. The basic founding principle household income of less than £15,000 a year, and that of the Hywel Dda laws was equality. Following the low-paid workers are increasingly turning to support in death of the head of a family, the estate was distributed order to get by. That is the context of governance in the equally between all male siblings, rather than passing United Kingdom at the present time. Does the hon. under the sole control of the eldest, as under the English Gentleman agree that Westminster is failing not just the system. people of Scotland and Wales, but those in the rest of My reason for taking the House on this historical the United Kingdom? journey through mediaeval Wales is to make the case that the Welsh political tradition, even going back more Jonathan Edwards: I am grateful to my hon. Friend than 1,000 years, has been based on the principles of for that valuable contribution. I intend to develop some equality and fairness. Those principles were essential of those themes later in my speech. elements to the sort of society that Welsh political What a pity that the Labour party is so completely rulers wanted to build and enshrine in law. Owain removed from the vision of Keir Hardie today. Last Glyndwr was the last ruler of an independent Wales Wednesday, during a meeting of the Welsh Grand and the seventh most important person of the last Committee, the shadow Secretary of State for Wales, millennium, according to a Times poll in 1999. He the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith), made heralded the return to the laws of Hywel Dda as the one of the most depressing speeches that I have heard founding principle of his independent Wales at the since being elected to serve the people of Carmarthenshire. beginning of the 15th century. He returned the Labour party to the dark days of the Robert Owen, another great Welshman from the county 1970s, when it was clearly the most anti-devolution of Powys, is recognised throughout the world as one party in Wales. His speech was Kinnock-esque, and I of the founding pioneers of socialism. In the early certainly do not mean that as a compliment. 721 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 722

Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): I share the In my eyes, the case for the creation of that more hon. Gentleman’s concern. Was that not made all the equal society is crystal clear, and should be the overriding worse by the fact that until then there had been a priority of our politics. Equality improves the well-being consensus among all four political parties in Wales of citizens, reduces social tensions, and creates a fairer about the inevitability of the movement towards devolution, and more democratic society. Democracy, in its wider which was torpedoed by those on the Labour party’s sense, is about far more than voting; it is about creating Front Bench last week? a fully participatory society in which everyone has an opportunity to contribute. Jonathan Edwards: The speech made by the hon. Is it any wonder that voting levels are so disgracefully Member for Pontypridd was a truly staggering intervention low? Why would those at the bottom of the pile have in the Silk commission debate, not least because only a any interest in participating in electoral events when the year or so earlier, the very same Member and his main protagonists have a common vision of preserving colleagues voted in favour of the very same proposals the status of the élites that currently rule? The Huffington for Scotland, which were in the Bill that became the Post reports today that a generation of Londoners have Scotland Act 2012. I find it staggering that they now given up all hope of owning their own homes. I certainly believe that those measures, if applied to Wales, would felt like that in my twenties, when I had a relatively completely deconstruct the United Kingdom. well-paid job but house prices were rocketing out of I could travel much further on my historical journey, control. I can assure Members that that situation is but I shall end it now by giving a mention to my completely demoralising. It is no wonder that young political hero, D.J. Davies. people in particular feel completely disfranchised: their overriding feeling is that the world is passing them by. Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): The Respected academics and commentators have declared House would very much like the hon. Gentleman to that the UK is the fourth most unequal country in the continue his history lesson. It was being much enjoyed. developed world, and that, given current trends, it could even end up being the most unequal. It is certainly the Jonathan Edwards: I am grateful for that observation most unequal in terms of individual and geographical from such a distinguished Member. I do not want to disparity anywhere in the European Union, according bore the House too much, but I want to give a mention to last year’s EUROSTAT figures. to D.J. Davies, who is my political hero, and who was born in the same industrial valley as me, the Amman Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): The valley. In particular, I want to mention his masterpiece, hon. Gentleman mentioned prosperity a few moments “The Economics of Welsh Self-Government”, published ago. Having have looked carefully at the motion, I am in 1931. In that book, he made the case that the crusade disappointed to see nothing about skills, nothing about for social justice for working people and the political productivity, and nothing about the creation of high- empowerment for Wales—my country—were intrinsically value-added businesses. Is the hon. Gentleman not intertwined. That position continues to be central to the encouraged by the creation of university technical colleges, position of my party, and to my own personal political and by the millions of apprenticeship starts that will beliefs. give our young people the skills that will enable them to The national movements in these isles and the crusade obtain high-paid jobs? to tackle inequalities in our communities are one and the same. In ignoring the founding principles of the Jonathan Edwards: Plaid Cymru has certainly prioritised Welsh, Scottish and Irish political traditions—and in its apprenticeships in Wales. We struck a budget deal with inability to tackle the gaping inequalities that exist in the Welsh Government to secure more of them. both individual and geographical terms—the Westminster élite is directly undermining the case for a United Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) Kingdom, and furthering the aims of national freedom (SNP): The aim of the motion is to ensure that a in Wales and Scotland. I should add that the Irish commission is established to investigate inequality and proclamation of independence contains an explicit poverty. The commission would deal with the details to commitment to equality. which the hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) has referred, and I hope that he will Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): support the motion on that basis. I am listening carefully to the hon. Gentleman’s speech, and I am sure that he is absolutely sincere, but I am Jonathan Edwards: I am grateful to my colleague for baffled by his statement that the Scottish nationalists making a very valid point on my behalf. believe in reducing inequality at a time when they want I was talking about the inequality that exists in the to slash corporation tax for big business. Will he explain United Kingdom. Why is this so, how is it so, and why how the two fit together? has it been allowed to happen under successive Labour and Tory Governments? I am sure that many Members Jonathan Edwards: I do not want to become too will be able to cite numerous facts and figures that involved in the Scottish independence debate. I have amply demonstrate the inequality and lack of fairness colleagues who are better qualified to do that. I will say, that exist in the UK; indeed, we have already heard however, that the case for the creation of a more equal several interventions to that effect. society is based on the generation of prosperity, and that the job-creating levers resulting from fiscal devolution Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): I may not would clearly allow the Welsh and Scottish Governments agree with everything that the hon. Gentleman says to achieve that aim. today, but I can tell him that in September 2013 the 723 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 724

[Mr Nigel Dodds] Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman’s assertion that a change in the voting system average Northern Ireland household was surviving on would do away with jobs for life is not borne out by the discretionary income of £60 a week, while average way in which things have worked out in practice. In discretionary income in the United Kingdom was £157 a Scotland, for example, there is concern that someone week. There is clearly a big discrepancy throughout the can go from being a list MSP to a constituency MSP UK. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that one of the then back to being a list MSP without ever feeling that reasons why devolution is so important is that it can their job is unsafe. Also, people can be in a similar lead to local solutions, and can enable local help to position in local government for a long time. So doing benefit the citizens of the devolved countries? away with jobs for life is not inherent in getting rid of first past the post. Jonathan Edwards: In that regard, the Democratic Jonathan Edwards: The answer to that is to have Unionist party and Plaid Cymru share a common vision, openness rather than party-controlled lists. I am sorry in that we need to empower our respective Governments that the hon. Lady does not share my ambition for to deal with the economic and social challenges that our wider political realignment in the United Kingdom, people face. and that she prefers a system in which priority is always I want to set out how and why this inequality has given to the affluent areas in the south-east of England. been allowed to take a grip and, indeed, been actively pursued by the powers that be. I will also set out how Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): I am that can be reversed, and how places such as Wales can sure that my hon. Friend is aware that Northern Ireland become more prosperous and egalitarian societies. We has had a system of proportional representation for have seen the over-concentration of power, status and about 40 years. Does he agree that a PR electoral influence in a narrow and unrepresentative financial system provides opportunities that would not otherwise elite over the past three decades. That has allowed exist for minorities to be represented? greed, avarice and hubris to take hold among the elite’s own ranks, while poverty, destitution and exclusion Jonathan Edwards: I believe that the House of Commons have risen among much of the rest of society. would be far better if we had such a system, rather than The uneven economic development of the UK and a system that bases its politics on preserving the power the concentration of so much wealth and power around of two political parties. London and the south-east distort much of the UK’s Economic development has become radically distorted public life. They influence and shape many of the as inequality has risen. My constituency predecessor political, media and business perceptions about what is pointed out last year in an economic study entitled good for the entire UK, and lead to geographical “Offa’s Gap” that the Welsh economy had been growing polarisation and a super-concentration by Westminster more slowly in relation to its historical trend growth politicians on certain sectors of the population whose and to that of the UK economy for the past two opinion is seen as worth courting and listening to. decades. He and Plaid Cymru’s other noted economics adviser, Eurfyl ap Gwilym, concluded that Wales needed the kind of defined economic and export development Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): I am listening with strategy that is sadly lacking under the current Labour great interest to what the hon. Gentleman is saying. Welsh Government. Similarly, the economic policies of Does he think that that concentration of power and the current Westminster Government are woefully authority in London and certain other parts of the inadequate and ignore the requirements of my country. country was a natural change that occurred as a result of global changes and that the Government did nothing to mitigate it, or does he think that it was a result of Mr MacNeil: Given the lag in growth in the Welsh active Government policies over the past three decades? economy, is it not all the more perplexing that the Government in Cardiff—who must know far more about the situation there than I do—are choosing not to take Jonathan Edwards: I shall endeavour to answer that the powers to do anything about it? It is like a man on a very valid question in my speech. ship that is heading for the rocks refusing to put his hand on the tiller and instead letting it carry on merrily The electoral system plays a large part in creating the towards the rocks. It is a scandal that Labour has distortion. Using a small number of so-called swing chosen that route. seats, predominantly in more affluent areas, political strategists base their politics on the philosophy of triangulation, ignoring those on the periphery. Anyone Jonathan Edwards: The people of Wales might want interested in changing the course of Westminster politics to ask themselves what is behind that decision. Are the should embrace the cause of a more proportional electoral Welsh Government afraid of their own ability to use system, which would immediately lead to a wider those powers effectively, or do they have a vested interest realignment. It is no wonder that the Tories would die in in our communities remaining poor and disadvantaged? a ditch rather than reform the first-past-the-post system. The legacy of de-industrialisation in places such as More disappointing is the position of some on the Wales is well known. Levels of poverty, disability, and Opposition Benches, who would torpedo any such reform. ill health are high. There is a lack of economic opportunities, The only explanation I can offer is that the self-interest and the flight of the many young ambitious people of super-safe majorities and a job for life trump the understandably wanting to make something of themselves desire to achieve worthy political objectives such as a is invariably known as the brain drain. That creates a fairer society. vicious circle of its own. A Centre for Cities report at 725 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 726 the end of last month noted that 80% of private sector Jonathan Edwards: My constituency is largely off the job growth since 2010 was in London, that one in three gas grid, despite being in a mining valley and containing young people now move here for work, and that power some large urban areas. The coal miners campaigned should ultimately be devolved in order to allow greater against having the gas grid there, because they wanted freedom for areas outside London to develop. to use coal. The impacts that the hon. Gentleman Historically, vast areas of the British state have been mentioned are clear. I can speak from personal experience, economically depressed, with most political efforts having moved from an area where gas was my main concentrated on the south-east. Today, GDP per person form of heating and gone back to live in my home in inner London is almost 10 times that of many parts community, which is off the gas grid. The difference is of Wales, including the communities I represent. Many staggering, and quite eye-watering. The policies that areas of northern England are in the same boat as have been put forward by the other parties completely Wales. Great inequalities exist within London itself, and neglect this huge problem affecting rural areas. we must not forget that challenge, but there is an overwhelming concentration of wealth in that region—70% Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): Given the interest of higher than the UK average. It is the current political the hon. Member for Wealden (Charles Hendry) in structures and policy priorities of the Labour-Tory tag areas that are off the gas grid, does the hon. Member team that have allowed this to happen. for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) One would hope that when one part of the state is the think he should support our initiatives on giving pensioners richest in the European Union and others are the poorest, their winter fuel allowance at an earlier date and ensuring there would be a clarion call for action. Alas, the that the energy company obligation extends to off-grid Westminster elite seem oblivious to the matter, pursuing gas boilers, which is not the case currently? the same old failed policies of the past. Indeed, who could forget Lord Mandelson, the man who so epitomised Jonathan Edwards: I am grateful for that intervention, Labour in office, saying that he was and I congratulate my hon. Friend on all the work he “intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich”? has done on this issue. He has twice presented Bills to pursue that common-sense proposal, and when it comes It is no wonder that wealth inequalities gathered pace before the House again I intend to be here to support under the last Labour Government. Incredibly, west him—I hope that the hon. Member for Wealden will be, Wales and the valleys now find themselves below parts too. of Bulgaria and Romania in the EU wealth league. There are many indicators of rising inequality, besides Mr Dodds: May I endorse the point made by the hon. individual and geographical disparity. Over the past Member for Wealden, because Northern Ireland is decade, the number of households in fuel poverty in dependent to a high degree on home heating oil—off-grid Wales has risen from around 140,000 to 386,000 at the energy supply—with some 70% of our households using last count in 2012. That is 30% of the Welsh total. I it. Our household bills are, on average, way beyond the strongly suspect that the total will have risen since then, highest bills in the rest of the UK. It is important that given the combination of oil price inflation and a the issue is highlighted and something is done to address real-terms reduction in wages. the situation of those who are off grid. Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): The hon. Gentleman is making a compelling case. I wonder whether Jonathan Edwards: The right hon. Gentleman makes he is aware of the new research by the High Pay Centre, a very valid point. He will be aware of the lack of which finds that workplaces with big pay gaps between competition in the market, where there are perhaps five the highest and lowest paid suffer from far more industrial or six suppliers with more or less mirrored pricing disputes, more sickness and higher staff turnover than policies. The Government should examine that, and let those with more equitable pay differentials. Does he us hope they remedy the situation affecting those individuals recognise that, as well as addressing levels of pay, we who are off the gas grid. need to reduce pay ratios and advocate concrete steps Wales is a country rich in natural resources, and it is a towards ensuring that the maximum wage in any net exporter of electricity. No one in an energy-rich organisation is no more than, say, 10 times the minimum country such as mine should have to live in fuel poverty, wage in that same organisation? yet 30% of the people in my country do. The energy sector was privatised by the Tories and the current Jonathan Edwards: I fully concur with my hon. Friend. market was set up by Labour in 2002, allowing the One thing that is often not mentioned is the cost of previous regional monopolies to merge into the big six. inequality, particularly the health costs. If the Government It is symbolic of the profiteering, privatisation and pursued a policy of creating a more equal society, the corporate greed that has undermined poorer areas and Treasury would benefit from the reduction in expenditure poorer people under Labour and Tory misrule. on health care. Wales is a colonial economy, where our natural capital is extracted for no or little economic and social benefit Charles Hendry (Wealden) (Con): The hon. Gentleman to our people. No wonder the Westminster elite oppose mentioned fuel poverty. Does he agree that it is much empowering the Welsh Government by giving them worse in areas that are off the gas grid? That particularly control over our natural assets. Last week, the shadow affects Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, as well as Environment Secretary made an incredible intervention rural parts of England. Does he also agree that we need in the Scottish independence debate when she said that a comprehensive strategy to extend the gas grid so that if Scotland votes yes, the remnants of the UK might more people can benefit from heating their homes stop importing Scottish electricity if Labour were in with gas? power and look to other markets for supply. That one 727 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 728

[Jonathan Edwards] Last summer, the TUC produced a report that concluded that workers’ pay had fallen by 8% in real terms between intervention summarises the Westminster elite and how 2007 and 2012 in Wales—the sharpest fall in any of the they view Wales and Scotland. No wonder that on nations and regions of the UK. That is the level of the social media these sort of “Project Fear” scare stories drop in living standards that Labour and the Tories have earned the hashtag “know your place”. I would have presided over. The UK is badly damaged and wager that my friends in the yes campaign in Scotland corroded, if not completely broken. The old pillars of are delighted at such ill-judged interventions. the British establishment—banking, media and politics— have crumbled one by one, leaving an unrestrained Mr Llwyd: I am interested in what my hon. Friend crony capitalism which is not about good business or says about that intervention last week. Does he think genuine wealth creation, but about monopoly, oligopoly that if Wales were to follow our friends in Scotland, and corporate self-interest. England might stop taking its water? Jonathan Edwards: That is a very useful intervention, Angus Robertson: My hon. Friend is right to point and I think the answer depends on the progress on the out that litany of failure, but is it not right that in a desalination plants. I am following the debate in Scotland debate such as this we should be able to compare and with great interest, because we will be having the same contrast the reality here with that elsewhere? Has he debate in Wales within the next couple of decades and had an opportunity to look at the world happiness we will have the “Project Fear”manifesto off the bookshelf report, an annual publication taking into account GDP, ready to read. life expectancy and social support internationally? It showed that eight of the top 10 countries are small Mr MacNeil: I just want to tell the hon. Gentleman European independent states. What makes them so that the “Project Fear” manual has a short lifespan. It is successful while the UK fails so dramatically for people almost as Robert Burns said, in that it is a snowflake in across its nations and regions? a river: “A moment white—then melts for ever”. Jonathan Edwards: It comes down to the fact that The fears fall apart on a daily basis; they last only for Governments of small countries are far closer to the about 48 hours, but that does not stop them being aspirations and requirements of their people, whereas reheated. larger states find that far more difficult to achieve, especially where the state is very centralised, as ours is Jonathan Edwards: I am grateful for those insightful in the United Kingdom, with power heavily concentrated remarks. In Scotland, we are seeing the same stories as in Westminster. were used in other parts of the British empire when they Symptoms of what I am describing include the endeavoured to seek their political independence. That privatisation of the health service in England—the current approach will fail in Scotland and it will fail in Wales Tory policy of building on the layers laid down by when our turn comes. Labour, with its introduction of foundation hospitals By the end of Labour’s time in office, child poverty and use of the private finance initiative. The privatisation had increased, with 32% of children in Wales living in of services and assets has carried on unabated. For poverty, according to the Joseph Rowntree Foundation. example, Labour’s plan to privatise Royal Mail has The number fell in 2012, but only because wages had been carried out by the Tories and Lib Dems during this fallen across the board. That technicality in the way Parliament. Is it any wonder that Scotland is now child poverty is calculated ignores the fact that falling beginning to believe that it can do things better and wages mean even less resources with which to feed differently, or that the people of Wales increasingly hungry young mouths. The recent rapid rise of food demand that we have more powers to control our lives banks is yet another symptom of growing inequality. and better reflect our political values? The Labour Welsh Government had set the target of The most detailed research since devolution began eradicating child poverty by 2020, but they cannot and was undertaken by the Silk commission, which has been will never achieve that if they do not stand up for Wales. tasked with pathfinding the next steps in the Welsh It cannot be achieved while their masters in London devolution journey. The findings of that detailed research refuse to confront the widening gulf in equality that has are extremely encouraging: 62% want more powers for been emerging over the past 30 years and even accelerated Wales, with only a paltry 20% against—that reflects all under their watch. the geographical areas of my country; 80% believe that Sheila Gilmore: Constantly saying that there is no the National Assembly defends Welsh interests better difference between the Labour Governments and the than Westminster; 80% want responsibility for energy Conservative Government is not helpful. Does the hon. policy to be in Wales; 63% want powers over policing; Gentleman have no memory of the reduction in pensioner 58% want powers over broadcasting; and there was also poverty and the reductions in child poverty achieved a clear majority for devolving social protection—or at under the Labour Government? Do those things not least its administration, as is the case in Northern matter in the story that he wants to tell? Ireland, which has enabled its Government to stop the implementation of the bedroom tax. However, only Jonathan Edwards: As the former head of policy for 20% support devolution of defence and foreign affairs, Citizens Advice in Wales, I have some expertise in this so clearly there is a bit of work to do to progress those matter; the Labour party achieved its reduction in the two areas in my country. child poverty figures by changing the way in which the In many areas of the UK, it is taken for granted that statistics were calculated, thus removing 1 million children the Tory party long ago discarded any pretensions to a from child poverty overnight. one-nation paternalist conservatism that sought to mould 729 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 730 itself around social democratic values. Instead it embraced After decades of increasing wealth inequality under Thatcherism and its resultant rise in economic inequality. successive Westminster Administrations, it was hoped Of greater concern, however, is the complete dereliction that finally there would be a change of direction. Instead, of duty by Labour in its failure and unwillingness to what we have seen is ideological austerity and ultra-loose deal with rising inequality.Westminster is now synonymous monetary policy, which has seen redistribution in reverse. with inequality from its representation to its policies. Amazingly, Labour has signed up to the same fiscal Following the 2010 Westminster election and the strategy if it forms the next UK Government. It is an aftershocks of the 2008 financial crash, a new UK incredible strategic decision that overrides all others, coalition Government pledged to rebalance the economy but it has barely been mentioned in dispatches by a of the British state by sector and on a geographical London-centric media that views it as par for the course. basis. Who can forget the Chancellor’s triumphant claim, Plaid Cymru, the party of Wales, believes that Wales “We’re all in this together”? He told us that he was is best served when we are free to decide our future and creating an economy set our own course. That is why it is so important that “carried aloft by the march of the makers.”—[Official Report, the job-creation and economy-boosting financial powers 23 March 2011; Vol. 525, c. 966.] recommended by the UK Commission on Devolution in Wales are implemented as soon as possible; they are a What is more worrying is the Government’s admission bare minimum. However, on their own they are unlikely that this is failing. The Business Secretary now fully to reverse the decades of inverted wealth distribution. admits that London For as long as Wales continues to be a part of the UK “is a giant suction machine draining the life out of the rest of the and Plaid Cymru MPs are in this place, we will seek to country.” reform it. An economic fairness Act would force the Yet the Government do precious little to rectify that. UK Government—whoever they were—to implement a Only last month the Financial Times reported that the range of measures to ensure that more economic and wealth gap between London and the nations and regions job opportunities are created outside the south-east of is set to widen. A professor at the London School of England with statutory obligations to tackle individual Economics has noted that London is the inequality. “dark star of the economy, inexorably sucking in resources, Such an Act would concentrate minds on a genuine people and energy.” rebalancing of the economy, turning us away from financial services and banking towards areas such as The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales manufacturing and engineering. It would allow for measures (Stephen Crabb): If the hon. Gentleman looks at the such as prioritising poorer areas for infrastructure spending most recent economic data for gross value added growth and investment, bringing jobs and growth. Legislation in Wales and across the UK, he will see that growth based on the Communities Reinvestment Act in the US in Wales is rebounding stronger than the UK average. It would be included to ensure that the private banking is closing the gap rather than, as he purports, increasing it. sector operates fairly in terms of which geographical areas it prioritises for lending. I need not remind the House of the enormous problems that Welsh businesses Jonathan Edwards: We welcome the fact that Wales have faced as a result of banks’ activities since the has moved up. None the less, we are still at the bottom crash. It is a complete disgrace that in 2008 £1.4 trillion of the wealth league. West Wales, the area that both the of taxpayers’ money—100% of the country’s wealth—was Minister and I represent, fell by 4%. That is a record of put into loans, grants and guarantees and used to pull failure. It says something about the Welsh Government’s up the banking sector. policies as well—I am not just slinging my sticks at my friend on the Government Benches. In Wales, a national public development bank should be set up to ensure businesses in our country are able to Today, Aditya Chakrabortty’s article in the Guardian access finance to grow and develop. The devolved highlights how public money and private wealth are Government would be empowered with the job creation being hoovered up by London. He notes that last year, levers to incentivise economic development. the Institute for Public Policy Research published research that showed that the transport spending system is broken. Transport spending is £2,731 per head in London, Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): Will the hon. Gentleman compared with £5 per head in the north-east of England. explain how, with a tax take from people living in Wales In Wales, we receive only 0.7% of the transport being some £9 billion short of tax expenditure, an infrastructure spend, yet we represent 5% of the population. independent Wales would put right that hole in the There is still not a single mile of electrified track in economy? Wales, which puts us on a par with the likes of Albania—so much for Labour standing up for Wales during 13 years Jonathan Edwards: I have been totally clear in my in power. We welcome the announcement by this comments about the constitutional journey of my country: Government that they will electrify the line to Swansea. we are not in a position to fight for independence at this However, the pressing issue for us is whether we will get very moment, which is why Wales needs the economic our fair share from the vast expenditure on High Speed 2, powers to build up its economy to be in a position to do which the Government are intent on pursuing. As everyone so. We are in a different situation to Scotland. We will has noted, that expenditure on HS2 will hoover up all not get anywhere if we continue with the policies of the transport infrastructure spending for generations to Labour party, which aims to keep economic control in come. Given that it is an England-only railway—the last London and to keep our communities impoverished. It time I looked on a map, Manchester, York and Birmingham is in its vested interest to do so, which is why it is were all in England—Wales deserves at least 5% of that opposed to all the measures being put forward by the expenditure. Silk commission. 731 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 732

Mr MacNeil: People who say that Wales’ tax take is and mental health benefits, so it ends up costing the not equivalent to its expenditure are quite short-sighted. taxpayer far less, as individuals are moved from social They fail to realise that they are living in the United security into employment, and it eases considerable Kingdom, the tax take of which has not matched pressure on heath services. expenditure since 2001, and is not likely to do so until It is increasingly clear that the Treasury has been 2018. This is a UK that records a deficit year after year, re-infected with the British disease of basing growth on and has a debt that grows year after year. inflating house prices backed up with taxpayers’ cash—the Help to Buy policy. Far from rebalancing the economy, Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. the Treasury is reintroducing boom and bust. Instead of Obviously, Mr MacNeil will want to catch my eye to delivering an equitable share of infrastructure investment make his speech. I would not like him to use it all up across the UK, the Exchequer lavishes London with its now, so shorter interventions. grand design projects, be it the Olympics, Crossrail 1 and 2 or High Speed 2. UK Trade & Investment does Jonathan Edwards: The point that is often forgotten is not deliberately channel foreign direct investment into that despite the fact that London is one of the richest the poorest parts of the state, unlike its German counterpart, parts of the European Union and that communities Germany Trade & Invest, which has a statutory duty to such as mine in Carmarthenshire are at the bottom of do so. Is it not sobering that despite the cold war and a the European wealth league, public expenditure per physical wall between the east and west of its country, head is higher in London than it is in Wales—that is Germany today is far more balanced in geographical until very recent figures, which showed that Welsh spending wealth than the UK? had caught up. It is an incredible situation. I could not Other places have shown the way. Germany is a make this up. federal republic, and the constitution requires fiscal The way in which monetary policy is formulated is equalisation among the Länder. That is a timeless also in severe need of reform. The week before last, I requirement on all parts of government, and policies tabled an early-day motion calling for the Bank of are required no matter the era. After reunification, England, or the Sterling Central Bank as it should be when poorer East Germany joined developed West renamed, to be reformed better to take into account the Germany, a massive effort meant a variety of measures economies of the UK when formulating monetary policy. were implemented, including financial transfers to poorer The Governor should appear for scrutiny before the regions and industrial development policies. relevant Committees of the devolved legislatures, and The same could be done from Westminster, but it has meet with the devolved Governments, just as he has to not been. The alternative is the approach favoured by with the Chancellor and the relevant Select Committees the London parties, whereby investment is concentrated in Westminster. in London and the south-east, and wealth inequalities In addition, the four external members of the Monetary continue to rise. It is clear that it is time for a change. Policy Committee should be nominated by the four Where are the voices in support of such a change? Who nations, rather than hand-picked by the Chancellor of will turn back the tide of growing inequality? We know the day from the self-serving banking elite. [Interruption.] that we cannot rely on the Tories in London, so unashamed I am grateful to my friends from Northern Ireland who are they in their love of banking and the financial elite. supported that early-day motion. There is an interesting Where is Labour? Why is it not standing up against story in the Western Mail about the need for the Welsh inequality? Its amendment seeks to wreck our motion, Government and the Northern Ireland Assembly to absolving it of its role in creating rising inequality over collaborate in the event of Scottish independence, be it the past decade, but it is bereft of policies. a yes or a no vote, to ensure that we are not bombarded Last week, some of Labour’s Wales-based Members by Westminster. I hope that it might be a small step on defended the UK as a redistributive Union. They are the road to greater collaboration. Instead, what we have deluding themselves, both about their record in government, is a drive towards regional pay in the public sector, as inequality rose during that period, and about the introduced by the previous UK Government and now current situation. A closer examination of their voting developed by the coalition, which ghettoises low-wage record would suggest that their rhetoric is unsupported economies outside London. by action. I cite their abstention on the Welfare Reform Labour has gone a step further, with a pledge to cap Bill, which introduced the cruel and dreaded bedroom benefits on a geographical basis if it forms the next tax; their abstention on a cut in the top rate of income Government. That means that the unemployed and tax; and their refusal to support any measure to help to disabled in Wales will receive fewer payments than promote measures to provide the Welsh Government those who happen to live in London. Wales will have with the economic powers that they need to move the lost more than £1 billion during 2013-14 due to cuts in Welsh economy forward. benefits. Those include payments that people in work Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab): The hon. receive to top-up low wages. That money would have Gentleman mentioned the bedroom tax, and I invite been spent directly in the Welsh economy, but is now him to congratulate Scottish Labour which, in the Scottish lost. Parliament, pushed the Scottish Government to end the Rather than hitting the sick and unemployed with a bedroom tax in Scotland. Will he further assist me in stick and labelling them “scroungers”, why do we not calling on the Scottish Government to reimburse those embrace the active labour market programme employed good citizens who have already paid the bedroom tax? so successfully in Sweden? It is an interventionist policy, in which the Swedish Government spend twice the Jonathan Edwards: The hon. Gentleman seems to amount per capita that is spent in the UK, creating forget that his party is not in power in Scotland any tailored action plans. The programme has productivity more—it is the Scottish National party Government 733 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 734 who introduced that policy. Rather than grandstanding, Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr would set he would be better advised to congratulate the SNP on out a vision of what small-country, successful economics its progressive track record in government. might look like under a Plaid Cymru Administration, Who could forget the hon. Member for Leeds West but we heard precious little about that. I hope that some (Rachel Reeves), the shadow Work and Pensions Secretary, of his colleagues will be able to enlighten us on that. promising to be “tougher than the Tories” on benefits? Instead, there was a familiar return to the talk of more Only today, the Leader of the Opposition has praised spending, more borrowing and more debt—exactly the none other than Baroness Thatcher, that well known things that will shackle the people of Wales and their proponent of fairness and equality, in a bid to reform children for generations to come with more economic public services. By that, he can only mean more problems. privatisation. Perhaps the greatest let down, and without a doubt Labour’s greatest folly, reflecting its abandonment Andrew Selous: Does the Minister agree that there is of the fight against inequality, is its commitment to nothing fair at all about getting the next generation to Tory austerity cuts post-2015. It is now blocking fiscal pay even more of this generation’s debts? devolution to Wales, which would enable us to develop our own economy. It has also failed to commit to fair Stephen Crabb: My hon. Friend is exactly right. There funding for Wales, even though it admits underfunding is nothing fair, progressive or just about loading future by more than £300 million a year as a result of the generations with more debt and the consequences of Barnett formula. debt. If we are a responsible political generation in the The national parties of Wales and Scotland fight for House, we will take care to ensure that our decisions a partnership of equals between the nations of these minimise the impact on future generations. isles. However, it is about far more than that. It is about This country continues to face deep-seated, long-standing what we do once we achieve that aim. The main reason economic challenges. The UK underwent an economic is to honour the political traditions of our countries, trauma between 2008 and 2010, and we are still living which I have set out today and which have been undermined with the consequences. As a result of that trauma in by centuries of Westminster rule. those two years, there was a huge destruction of value in the economy, and a destruction of wealth, and we are still recovering from that, even in 2014. Although it is 1.45 pm difficult for Opposition parties to admit, the Government The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales have made difficult, challenging decisions and taken (Stephen Crabb): I am grateful for the opportunity to practical steps to reduce the deficit and restore stability follow the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and and order to our national finances, which is the starting Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards)—my hon. Friend—who point—the foundation—for tackling all the other social spoke with trademark passion. He gave us a treat by and economic issues that the hon. Member for Carmarthen dipping into Welsh political traditions. Like my hon. East and Dinefwr and others have begun to raise in the Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob House this afternoon. As a coalition Government, we Rees-Mogg), I greatly enjoyed his history lesson. I, too, are ambitious that the emerging economic recovery went to school in Wales, and I remember some of that should be a recovery for all parts of the UK, including history. I caution the hon. Member for Carmarthen Scotland and Wales, and for all people from all walks of East and Dinefwr against looking back to the days of life in our country. That is at the heart of our vision of Hywel Dda through rose-tinted spectacles, as it was a fairness as a coalition Government. brutal and unpleasant time. I would also caution the hon. Gentleman against Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Does the drawing a direct, continuous line from the days of Minister agree that the socialist remedy is so often to Hywel Dda to 20th-century state socialism. If we are think of tax and regulations to get rid of the rich from talking about the long-term economic problems with London to abroad, and hopeless in thinking of ways of which Wales is still struggling, I would point out that promoting other people to good jobs and success so state socialism was part of the problem for much of the that they can enjoy and share the prosperity? 20th century, not part of the solution. I would also refer him to other political traditions in Wales that point to a Stephen Crabb: My right hon. Friend is exactly right. stronger civic society and a culture of self-help. There is There seems to be a blind spot in the left in that respect. a more communitarian tradition, which risks being We have begun to discuss fiscal powers for Wales and emasculated by any return to state socialism. Scotland, and as that debate continues, what we should I pay tribute to the SNP and Plaid Cymru for choosing see from all the parties in Wales and Scotland are new, the topic for today’s debate, and I am happy to have the creative ideas to increase wealth and incentivise opportunity to set out what the Government are doing entrepreneurialism in those two challenged parts of the to reduce inequality and ensure fairness in society. country. Where the hon. Gentleman’s speech was a little Before I set out what the Government have done to disappointing, if I may say so, was in— tackle inequality and build a recovery for all, I want to deal with some of the issues that are already starting Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab): to be raised in this important debate. On the issue of The content. spending and the necessary cuts to spending that we still have to make, the simple truth is that the previous Stephen Crabb: The content was marked by the absence Government left Britain borrowing more than £400 million of a really attractive vision for what the Welsh economy every single day to pay for Government spending. As a could be. I was sitting expectantly, hoping that the hon. result of the difficult decisions that we have taken, the 735 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 736

[Stephen Crabb] Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. When I say “Order” I expect the hon. Lady to sit down. The intervention is deficit is now down by a third and we are borrowing becoming a ramble, but more importantly we are talking nearly £3,000 less for every hard-working family in the about a Member of Parliament, not by name I hope. country. However, there is still a long way to go. We are still borrowing around £100 billion a year and paying Stephen Crabb: The choice still facing the United half that a year in interest just to service our debts, so Kingdom is either to stick to the long-term economic there remain some difficult and challenging spending plan to secure a better, more financially secure future decisions further down the line. Whichever party or for hard-working people and their families throughout parties are in government after the next election, they the country, or to listen to the Opposition parties and will have to meet those decisions and challenges head the motion before us calling for a return to the days of on. spending and borrowing beyond our means, leaving our children and their children to pick up the bill. Caroline Lucas: For the benefit of us all and to enable a more enlightened debate, it would be helpful if the Angus Robertson: As we are talking about getting the Government stopped pretending that the right hon. record straight, recent quotes of the Business Secretary Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown)was have been raised a number of times. He said that responsible for the collapse of Lehman Brothers. I London blame the Labour party for a lot, but the idea that the “is becoming a giant suction machine draining the life out of the current economic crisis was somehow caused by that is rest of the country”. ludicrous. It was a global economic crisis and— Does the Minister agree with the Business Secretary? Stephen Crabb: We touched on this point during the Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I opening speech of the hon. Member for Carmarthen think the Minister has got the message. East and Dinefwr. I remind hon. Members that the most recent gross value added figures show that parts of Stephen Crabb: I applaud the hon. Lady for her the United Kingdom far from London are rebounding attempt to rescue the reputation of the former Chancellor strongly with growth and starting to narrow some of of the Exchequer and Prime Minister. The truth is that the economic gap that we are all concerned about. the trajectory of public spending was already far too high, even before the banking collapse. There was a Mr Redwood: I think the Minister could agree that structural deficit that placed at risk the stability of the the former Prime Minister and Chancellor was not UK finances even before the banking collapse. responsible for Lehman Brothers, but by the same token, should my hon. Friend not remind the House that the Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) right hon. Gentleman was responsible for the competition (Lab): Does the Minister not accept that official statistics and banking regulation regime that led to the collapse show that the debt-to-GDP ratio was lower in 2008 on his watch of the Scottish banks RBS and HBOS? than when we came into power in 1997? Those are the official figures. Stephen Crabb: My right hon. Friend makes the point perfectly well. Stephen Crabb: I am not sure that I recognise the It is the firmly held belief of this Government that it figures that the hon. Lady gives. must pay to be in work, and we are restoring the incentives to work; restoring the value of work in our Richard Fuller: Will the Minister assure the House society. That is one of the reasons why we have brought that he understands the figures even if the Opposition in the benefit cap, opposed by the Opposition parties, to do not, and that between 1995 and 2010 the total ensure that families are always better off in work rather indebtedness of the UK went from twice the size of the than claiming benefit. We are also increasing the incentives economy to five times the size of the economy, making in the tax system, putting money back into the pockets us the most indebted major economy in the world? of working people by raising the income tax personal allowance to £10,000, taking 2.7 million people, many Stephen Crabb: My hon. Friend explains it very well of whom are on the lowest wages, out of income tax for the benefit of Members of all parties. Under the altogether. In Wales alone, that will benefit 1.2 million previous Labour Government, the trajectory of public workers, taking 130,000 people out of income tax altogether. spending was set on a reckless course, and when the For the record, in Scotland 2.2 million workers will banking crisis hit, the true consequences were felt by benefit and 240,000 will be taken out of income tax hard-working families throughout the country. altogether. Sheila Gilmore: The Minister is very quick to talk Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): about taxation issues, but surely the net effect of the While Opposition Members would like to absolve Gordon Government’s policies on tax, on payments of benefits Brown of any guilt over the collapse of the banking and tax credits, is that people on lower incomes have system, only this morning in the Treasury Committee suffered a loss. we were looking still at the debacle of the Co-operative bank— Stephen Crabb: I simply disagree with the hon. Lady’s argument. The Government are determined that, as the Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. economic recovery emerges throughout the country, people on the lowest incomes should be at the front of Andrea Leadsom: It is very apparent— the queue to benefit from that recovery. 737 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 738

We recognise that for those on the lowest pay things Stephen Crabb: I absolutely agree with the aspiration remain challenging. Wage levels are not where we want to have greater fairness in the workplace and to narrow them to be. That is why we need a strong minimum the gender pay gap, but I will not be tempted to agree wage. I am proud that the coalition Government have with all the compulsory measures and burdens that the not only implemented the recommendations of the Low hon. Lady would place on businesses. We want businesses Pay Commission in full, but that last year we were able to be the engines of job creation for both men and to go beyond its recommendations and increase the women in Scotland, Wales, England and Northern Ireland, apprentice rate too. We can afford that only because we so we should resist the temptation always to call for have taken difficult and responsible financial decisions. more regulations and burdens to be placed on them. The best way to increase the availability of work that Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab): fits the needs of women, and indeed the needs of all The Minister is exactly right. The coalition Government those seeking work, is to grow the economy and create have taken tens of thousands of people out of paying more opportunities for work. tax, but does he agree with his Liberal Democrat colleagues, The hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr that if they raised that tax-free allowance any higher, also mentioned food banks. Unlike the previous people who are not paying tax at the moment will see no Government, who did not want even to admit that food benefit from that? banks existed and refused to allow them to be advertised in jobcentres—Labour Members still try to duck the Stephen Crabb: I have just given the House the numbers fact that the number of food banks increased more than of people who are benefiting from the steps that we are tenfold when they were in government—we take a positive taking to increase the personal allowance. With that view of their role. I have been the trustee of a food bank measure and the other steps that we are taking, such as in my constituency in west Wales. I am proud that this strengthening the minimum wage, we are providing real Government are working in partnership with food banks, practical tools to ensure that those on the lowest incomes which are a vital part of a social economy at what is still start to see the benefit of the economic recovery. a difficult time for a great many families.

Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): The Gordon Banks: Despite the Minister’s rhetoric at the Minister omitted to mention that 279,000 people in this Dispatch Box, can he not just for once agree, openly country go to work every day but do not even receive and honestly, that the number of food banks and the the minimum wage. I want to take him to the point he number of people in work who are using them have made about making work pay. What would he say to a gone through the roof on this Government’s watch? low-income worker in Wales, England, Northern Ireland Stephen Crabb: The number of food banks has been or Scotland who will see the work allowance of universal increasing for a great many years, as has the number of credit frozen this year, next year and the year after, people using them, but the hon. Gentleman is wrong to taking £600 million away from low-paid workers? pretend that 2010 was somehow year zero. The food bank that I was a trustee of was set up in 2007, under Stephen Crabb: In Wales, when universal credit is the previous Labour Government. We should not forget rolled out fully, 200,000 households will see their that one of the reasons people are driven to use food entitlements increase under universal credit. Alongside banks is household debt. The Labour party, as well as that are all of the incentives brought in to encourage being intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich, work and more hours of work, so that people are not was also far too relaxed about people being pushed into penalised for choosing to work rather than stay at home excessive household debt. on benefit. The hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr Mr Weir: I accept that 2010 was not year zero for started his contribution by referring to Hwyel Dda and food banks, but the reality is that they are increasing the position of women in society in Wales in the exponentially, mostly because of the benefit changes 15th century, so I want to take a moment to look at the introduced by this Government, who are clobbering role of women in our society, which I expect will be many low-paid families, and often the people using raised more as we get further into the debate. There are them are in work. more women at work than ever before. Nearly 14 million women are in employment—an increase of more than Stephen Crabb: I hear what the hon. Gentleman says, half a million since May 2010. Let us compare that with but the reasons that drive people to use food banks are the record of the previous Government, who oversaw a complex and it is a mistake to try to single out any one rise in female unemployment of 30%. We recognise that cause. When I speak with food banks in Wales, they do for some women the work that is available might be part not tell me that it is the benefit changes that are responsible time or reduced hours, and we should not be tempted to in most cases. Household debt is a far more important fall into lazy thinking that women always prefer to work factor. part time. A great many do not; a great many women Debbie Abrahams: I thank the Minister for giving way want to work full time. again; he is being very generous with his time. Citizens Advice has analysed why people are going to food banks Caroline Lucas: I certainly agree with the Minister on and found that inappropriate sanctions as a result of that. Does he agree that it is a scandal that we still do welfare reforms and low pay are the key contributors. not have equal pay for equal work? Will he join me in calling for compulsory equal pay audits for larger employers, Stephen Crabb: The hon. Lady talks about inappropriate as well as legislation to require that within five years sanctions on benefits. I recall hearing one of her Front- 40% of board members of larger companies are female, Bench colleagues say only a few weeks ago that the so that we can begin to address this fundamental inequality? Labour party would be even tougher on benefits than 739 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 740

[Stephen Crabb] ensuring that the most vulnerable get direct help with their bills: 230,000 homes will be warmer this year by this Government have been. I think that she needs to get getting energy efficiency measures installed under the some consistency with her Front Benchers on whether energy company obligation; and 2 million households they support sanctions. will get help under the warm home discount, including The best way to reduce economic inequality is to have more than 1 million of the poorest pensioners. a growing economy and to ensure that people are in work. Today, more people in Wales have gone out to Gordon Banks: The Minister now has an opportunity work than at any time before, with economic inactivity to say whether he will support Labour’s plan to freeze at its lowest level since records began. However, the energy prices to cut the burden on hard-pressed households. tragedy is that there are still 200,000 people in our country who have never worked a day in their lives. I Stephen Crabb: I will not be tempted to support an hope that the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and unworkable and generalised plan that has been criticised Dinefwr agrees wholeheartedly that that represents an by industry stakeholders and the people who really enormous waste of talent, potential and skill and that a know about these matters. What I support are the small nation such as ours cannot afford to lose that practical steps that this Government are taking on a potential. I hope that he shares my ambition for welfare broad range of fronts to return money to the pockets of reform to see those people who have been locked in hard-working people and insulate the most vulnerable worklessness brought back into the labour market to against the challenges that remain in our economy. achieve their full economic and social contribution. Hon. Members would not know it from the interventions of Opposition Members, but inequality surged when Mr MacNeil: Does the Minister think that the situation the Labour party was in government. It is the party that he describes is the result of something inherent in those was, as the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr people or the result of the circumstances and structures said, intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich. they are living in? This Government are determined to see inequality fall. It is under this Government that those with the broadest Stephen Crabb: That question probably warrants a shoulders are facing the greatest burden. The richest separate debate. I firmly believe that the vast majority members of society now pay a higher proportion of tax of people want to work. I believe that human beings are than they have ever done, with the richest 1% paying hard-wired to want to make an economic and social almost 30% of the total income tax take and the richest contribution, but the welfare system, which too often 5% paying almost half. the Opposition parties run to the barricades to defend, There is nothing fair about ignoring or ducking the blunted that inherent instinct that people have to want challenge of welfare reform. If we are serious about to better themselves and to choose work over dependency. tackling inequality, we must be serious about tackling the wasted opportunities we see before us. In Wales, Mr MacNeil: The Minister has accepted that it is not 92,000 children are growing up in households where no the result of something inherent in those people, so why one works, and 200,000 people in Wales are yet to work do they not work, and why can they not work? I a day in their lives. That is the result not of this contend that it is the structure of the United Kingdom Government’s policies but of years of failing to stand that leaves them in that situation. up to the problems of dependency and the decline of work incentives. I make no apologies for the fact that it Stephen Crabb: I think that I answered the hon. is this Government who are taking this once-in-a-generation Gentleman’s question the first time. opportunity to embrace welfare reform. More than 1.6 million private sector jobs have been The Labour party championed welfare reform 20 years created since 2010, and the way to ensure that that ago. Where have all the Labour party’s welfare reformers number keeps growing is to maintain this Government’s gone? Labour MPs 20 years ago were among the first to economic discipline and not to follow the discredited recognise the problems of dependency and the decline plan-B economics of the Opposition parties, which of work incentives that were emerging in our welfare would see growth slow down and inequality widen. system, but these days no one on the Opposition Benches We recognise that the economic situation is still speaks up for people caught in welfare traps. Instead, challenging for many people across the UK, but we are they turn poverty into a political football. They have committed to reducing the burden on the cost of living opposed every sensible measure that we have put in where we can. Inflation is at its lowest for four years, place to restore fairness and opportunity to our welfare benefiting families and businesses across the UK. The system. Government recognise the impact that persistently high pump prices have on the cost of living and on business Mr Russell Brown rose— costs. We have taken action to support the motorist by freezing duty for almost four years. Had we continued Stephen Crabb: I will not give way. on the path set by the previous Government and followed This Government are working for a recovery that their taxation plans in full, petrol would be 13p higher benefits the whole of the United Kingdom. We recognise per litre than it is today and the average motorist would that there are specific challenges for Scotland, for Wales be paying more than £7 extra for a tank of fuel. and for Northern Ireland—challenges for devolution Under the previous Government, energy prices escalated, but also the long-standing economic challenges that with the average domestic gas bill doubling between these parts of the UK have borne. Devolution provides 1997 and 2010. It is this Government who have brought the best of both worlds. Strong devolved legislatures forward changes to help reduce energy bills. We are ensure that key decisions are taken closest to those 741 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 742 affected, but so too can this Parliament make decisions been screaming out to be had, especially in recent times in the shared interests of the whole of the United as people are waking up to how things are arranged in Kingdom. The devolution settlements are flexible. We our society or societies. have seen this most recently with the Scotland Act 2012; Yesterday, a commission headed by Church of England the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, bishop, Dr John Sentamu, published a thoughtful report currently in the House of Lords; and, most recently, the on the problem of working for poverty wages in the draft Wales Bill, currently being scrutinised by the UK. Much has been written on this subject by eminent Welsh Affairs Committee. Nobel-winning academics and economists. Last week, I am sure that we will hear more today about Labour when we realised that this debate was going to happen, Members’ apparent position on the proposals to devolve my hon. Friend the Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) an element of taxation to the Welsh Government in said that he was going to play word bingo during my Cardiff. Previously they seemed to be supporting the speech and had chosen the word “Stiglitz”. I suppose consensus on the Silk commission’s proposals, but, as that many of my thoughts and much of my further the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr outrage on this issue have been ignited by Joe Stiglitz, rightly highlighted, since a week ago they seem to have and that propelled the idea for this debate. I would hope reneged on that cross-party agreement and are now full to do him justice, but I know I will not, so I recommend speed in reverse in trying to backtrack and ditch the reading his book, “The Price of Inequality”, available proposals. on anybody’s Kindle app for £5—or, indeed, Paul Before I conclude, it is only right that I focus briefly Krugman’s “End This Depression Now!” Another on the situation in Wales as part of the broader devolution interesting book I have seen but not read is “The Cost settlement. There has been much positive economic of Inequality: Why Economic Equality is Essential for news for Wales. Over the past year, the employment rate Recovery”by Stewart Lansley.Perhaps the aim of economic has increased by more than in any other region. The equality is too far away, but certainly the aim of reducing number of unemployed people has fallen by 24,000 since inequality should be uppermost in all our minds; indeed, the election—it is down by 12,000 only in the last quarter I think we shall see that it is becoming so. —and the number of economically inactive people in Wales has never been lower. The majority of jobs created Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and in the past year were full-time. The number of people in Kirkintilloch East) (Lab): Can the hon. Gentleman part-time work who want full-time work is only 18%, enlighten the House on how his proposal to cut corporation and through growing the economy we can help those tax for the biggest businesses in Scotland will reduce 18% to find the full-time work they want. A positive inequality? future for Wales has been set out by the Silk commission, whose work I praise. The Government have responded Mr MacNeil: It is quite simple—if we start to create to part 2 of its work by bringing forward ambitious jobs and opportunities for people, we will reduce inequality. proposals in the draft Wales Bill. I am pleased that the I would certainly not be in the position of one of the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr and hon. Gentleman’s colleagues who said last week: his party have welcomed the moves towards greater “If the Scottish people are going to be better off economically devolution for Wales. There are of course areas on and so on, I would still be against breaking away from the which we do not agree, but we have at least set out a Union.”—[Official Report, 6 February 2014; Vol. 575, c. 467.] positive vision for Wales that we share on this issue. It does not seem to matter whether we can cure poverty— By contrast, Labour Members in Westminster seem Labour Members would still be against independence to be suffering from a complete lack of vision for the because they have made careers talking about it, and future of Wales and its part in the UK and seem to have handsome careers at that. run out of steam as regards devolution. Rather than embracing the proposals in the draft Wales Bill and the Jacob Rees-Mogg: I am interested in the hon. Government’s response to the Silk commission, they Gentleman’s call for lower tax rates. Has he now become have shied away from anything other than borrowing. a tartan Tory? When they speak, I hope that they will set out their plans for tackling economic inequality, although I am Mr MacNeil: Devil the fear, as my old Irish mother yet to see any evidence from them of such a vision for would have said, devil the fear—no chance at all. I think Wales or beyond. the hon. Gentleman will see, as he pays more attention to the words to come, that the only Tories on this side of 2.12 pm the House are probably the red Tories. I listed the books I mentioned earlier for a reason. We Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) must be aware that we do not have to reinvent the wheel (SNP): Thank you very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. to get people more opportunities and chances in life. [Interruption.] I also thank the hon. Member for North Much of the research and science has been done, and East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) for his usual cheer as the information has been gathered. Perhaps if we stopped, I start to speak. looked and learned from what is around us we would We are having an important debate today. In recent stop falling into the same traps that different generations months we have had a number of debates on subjects such have fallen into. Why should inequality matter—why is as the minimum wage, the bedroom tax, and gender issues. it important? Is it merely because a number of influential Those are all important debates in themselves, but they professors with Nobel prizes have written books? I are also, if I might be so bold, symptoms of a bigger would contend that they have put intellectual bones on issue that is afflicting our society and other societies— our instinctive emotions of sympathy and empathy for inequality and unfairness. In many ways, this debate has our fellow people when we see them in situations that 743 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 744

[Mr MacNeil] some well-meaning individuals who may be a minority among the wealthy and could direct their contribution disturb us and we think are wrong. This is why nations in the wrong way. have international aid budgets and why we give to Before I get to the body of my speech, I have a final charity. Sometimes it can be argued that the money is example of something that I think informs the human not always best directed, but nevertheless it is useful in condition, namely the observations of anthropologists the main. It shows an underlying striving for fairness on hunter-gatherer societies. I hope this will also inform and is a reproach against inequality within the broad set the debate, because I think that inequality is essentially of people. about human choices—perhaps even bias—whether they My first engagement with the idea of inequality was be conscious or subconscious. in the religious education class in Craigston primary Anthropologists note that hunter-gatherer bands did school at the age of seven or eight, or perhaps even six, two main things: they hunted and they gathered, hence, with Mrs MacCormick, God bless her. Looking back, I of course, the name—there is no need to be a Nobel often think that we were really doing philosophy classes prize winner to spot that. The crucial observation is rather than RE classes. The example given was this: “If that they treated the products of the hunt and the you’re given a box of chocolates at home would it be gather very differently. The products of the hunt were best to eat them all yourself or share them with your shared out almost instinctively, with many people who brothers and sisters who have not been given any might not even have been on the hunt getting a share. chocolates?” I have to say that this scenario created a Anthropologists explain this as the sharing of luck and tension in my mind given my great love of chocolates. good fortune, with those on the hunt realising that they As you can see, Mr Deputy Speaker, I do not have so might not have had a successful hunt in different much a sweet tooth as a whole set of sweet teeth. I was circumstances and that, given the way in which the caught in the tension between doing what was manifestly society of the day was arranged, they might earn the right and what I really wanted to do on another level. good will of others who might be lucky on another day. The consensus quickly grew in the class that it was best That sharing, however, was not mirrored in the gather, to share—even among six, seven or eight-year-olds. I and anthropologists reckon that that was due to the am pleased to see you nodding in agreement, Mr Deputy labour and endeavours of the individual graft and Speaker. application of the gather.

Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): I assure the Caroline Lucas: I am enjoying the hon. Gentleman’s hon. Gentleman that I was not nodding in agreement; I exposition of hunters and gatherers. I wonder whether was just wondering whether there were inequalities it could lead us to a discussion about access to ownership within the chocolates. of land. Does he share my concern that very little has been done by successive Governments to address the Mr MacNeil: Very good, Mr Deputy Speaker. inequality that arises from the fact that the richest 0.6% It is a slight concern of mine, however, that the of the population own 46% of the UK’s land? Will he captains of industry, as they get called, or the high-bonus join me and others—indeed, this applied to Winston City bankers or hedge fund managers, have never had Churchill—who support a system of progressive land that experience at a young age and have not engaged value taxation as a much fairer way of taxing land than meaningfully with sympathy for the situation that others council tax and business rates? may be in as they gobble all the chocolates of productivity that our economy has produced, believing instead that Mr MacNeil: I hear what the hon. Lady says. I am they are self-made men and self-made women who tempted to go down the route of the argument about worship their own creators. the taxation of land and labour. I hope the hon. Member for North East Somerset agrees that it has many merits Richard Fuller: Before the hon. Gentleman moves on and that he will move a little closer to me on the left from his Milk Tray doctrine of equality, will he accept wing as a result. that very many of us do learn those lessons in school and do not necessarily need the Government to act for Gemma Doyle (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op): us to fulfil our responsibilities as individuals? What On taxation, does the hon. Gentleman agree that the would he say about considering ways to exhort people 50p tax rate should be brought back, and would he who have wealth, regardless of the taxes they pay, to support it in a separate Scotland? give more to others? Mr MacNeil: I have two points to make in response Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman’s intervention is to that. First, when the 50p tax rate was abolished, laudable, and I understand what he says, but I disagree. Members from Plaid Cymru, the Scottish National The consensus post the great depression of the 1930s party and a number of other minority parties—as they showed the importance of regulation, and that lesson are termed in this place, even though we, of course, are was probably forgotten by the 1980s in the era of the the only majority Government on these islands—went Reagan-Thatcher deregulation that led up to the precipitous through the Lobby to oppose the cut. If memory serves problems that finally exploded six years ago. In the absence me right, Labour Members sat on their hands and did of regulation, people have to look into their own hearts, not do so. but sometimes we can spend far too long doing that. Secondly, I would support the return of the 50p rate The rule of politics, Parliament and Government is to on the basis of need and argument. I understand that ensure that we have the structures whereby all can the UK Labour party is suggesting an increase to 50p benefit and they are not just dependent on the whim of for a short fixed term, probably because of the level of 745 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 746 the UK deficit, but the Scottish deficit is at a different power in the land—the landed classes—join with the level. Is the increase necessary in the UK because of merchant class to support capital, and they have succeeded economic circumstances—that is one argument—or is in increasing the value of capital by driving down the the hon. Lady saying that a 50p rate is Labour policy cost of labour. That is why we have the inequality we for ever? have, and that is the structure of the society we—

Gemma Doyle: I am happy to clarify that the question Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. It is was whether the hon. Gentleman supports the 50p tax very good to have a lecture, but not during an intervention. rate. If the hon. Gentleman wants to catch my eye later, I am sure he will be able to do so and give me a lecture then. Mr MacNeil: We voted against its abolition. It would not have gone—we would have the 50p tax rate right Mr MacNeil: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that now—if the hon. Lady and many others had joined us interesting intervention. As an MP for a left-of-centre in the Lobby. The question is: why did she and her party—sadly, the hon. Member for North East Somerset colleagues not go through the Lobby to vote against the is no longer in his place to hear this—I am asking how it cut? Where were Labour Members that night? There is possible that our society and, indeed, many other was no sign of them. Would anybody from the Labour societies, particularly in the English-speaking world, party care to tell me why they did not vote against the can tolerate inequality, which has now grown to levels cut to the 50p tax rate? I would be very pleased to hear beyond those of the 1920s. Has something primitive why not. Will one of the about 20 Members on the been transmitted to our minds through the media? The Labour Benches please stand and explain why Labour belief that the poor are poor because they are undeserving did not oppose the cut to the 50p tax rate? Going once, and have not worked hard enough is a primitive thought. going twice, gone: Labour has refused to explain. People have to be helped, because we are complex creatures living together in society. People have deep Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): I psychological needs and some can suffer from the paralysis remember that evening very well. To call Labour Members of feeling swamped or depressed when they feel stuck or headless chickens would be an affront to headless chickenry, trapped. given the way they were running around. Does my hon. Yesterday’s report by the Living Wage Commission, Friend agree that perhaps it was a principled abstention “Working for Poverty”, looked into the scale and problem that the Labour party pursued that evening on the 50p of low pay and working poverty in the UK. The first tax rate? shocking statistic I stumbled on came from the work of the Resolution Foundation, which had tracked low-paid Mr MacNeil: Well, a principled abstention by the workers for a decade between 2002 and 2012. Despite Labour party is news to me, but I take on board what working for a decade, only 18% of those people had my hon. Friend says. managed to escape low pay in that 10-year stretch. In I was talking about hunter-gathering. I was not so other words, people in low pay had a four in five chance much hunting Labour Members as asking why they did of remaining there. not go through the Lobby on the 50p tax rate. I was The report further notes: discussing why people have certain outlooks in life. I think that when people view the fruits of their success “1.3 million employees remained stuck in low pay for the subsequent decade, and a further 2.2 million workers held higher as being the result of a hunt that involved a great deal of paid jobs but returned to low paid jobs by the end of the decade.” good fortune and support, they might have a tendency to be slightly more left wing, whereas those who think That is and should be depressing. Imagine the feelings the fruits are the result of their own individual hard of the people we eyeball who have been living with that graft might have a tendency to be more right wing and reality on a daily basis for a decade. view their gains as a gather. I will make no further There is good news and bad news. Over the past judgment on that idea—I just want to put it out there decades, the wealth of this and other countries in the and let people chew it over—but I think there is something west has grown as productivity has increased. The bad deep-seated in our own personal biases as to why we news is that the fruits of that productivity have been arrive at certain points of view. disproportionately distributed. According to the BBC’s wealth gap analysis, as the wealth pie grew and there Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): was more to slice up, many people got roughly the same Will the hon. Gentleman give way? slice of the pie while others took a share that would embarrass a lion. Mr MacNeil: It would be a great pleasure to give way Between 1997 and 2007, the income of the top 0.1% to the hon. Gentleman. Perhaps he will tell us why grew by 82% to an average of £1.179 million annually; Labour did not vote against the cut to the 50p tax rate. the top 0.5% saw an increase of 66.5% to an average of £452,000 annually; and the top 1%, which, of course, Michael Connarty: I would be quite willing to brief includes the previous two groups, saw their income rise the hon. Gentleman later about the technicalities of by 60%, but their rise was only about a quarter of that why the vote was not called on that particular night. of the 0.1%. The hon. Gentleman is talking about a sociological Meanwhile, between 1997 and 2007—the happy decade, analysis, but some people have moved on since then and as some in financial circles call it, before the crash of six done a socialist analysis. When society is divided into years ago—the bottom 90%, which includes most of those who support capital and those who support labour, society, saw their wages rise by only 17%, a disproportionate what happens is that the forces of those who have the slice of the economic pie. Another way of looking at it 747 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 748

[Mr MacNeil] penalised—but it does not have them. It is, inefficiently, trying to build them so that people can avoid the is that the fraction of pay the bottom 90% were getting bedroom tax, but the costs are colossal. in comparison with the top 1% had fallen by a fifth over that decade. As Professor Stiglitz says: Pete Wishart: I am loth to interrupt my hon. Friend’s “A corporate CEO will not exert less effort to make the fantastic speech, but perhaps I can help him a little. We company work well simply because his take-home pay is $10 million know a bit about what the Labour party proposes to do a year rather than $12 million.” with the Scottish budget because of the cuts commission. The “Working for Poverty” report contains a series of It intends to do away with universal benefits and it does nuggets and goes fearlessly into some thought-provoking not like free bus passes and free prescriptions. That is factors. what it would do if it gets control of the levers of power in the Scottish Parliament. We know exactly where it is Mr McKenzie: The hon. Gentleman has mentioned going with its cuts commission. poverty and how to tackle it, which is welcome, but can he explain why the SNP Government in Edinburgh have Mr MacNeil: My hon. Friend is absolutely correct. taken £1.2 billion out of anti-poverty programmes since Johann Lamont has a cuts commission. [Interruption.] 2008? I hear from the Labour Front Bench that she does not Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman will find that the have a cuts commission, which is another example of efforts of the SNP have been very laudable in Scotland, how Labour Scottish Members say one thing while with unemployment and youth unemployment lower Labour in Scotland says another. If Labour Front than in the rest of the UK. The SNP Government have Benchers want to tell us what Johann Lamont is doing—if done all they can. He should realise that the Government she has told them—they are more than welcome to in Edinburgh are in a financial straitjacket set by the intervene. philosophies of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions in London. Mr Russell Brown: Will the hon. Gentleman tell us If the hon. Gentleman really wanted to tackle such why £1 billion has been removed from anti-poverty issues, he would free himself from that straitjacket, and programmes since 2008 under his Government? Perhaps the SNP or whichever party was in government in that might paint a clearer picture. Edinburgh would be fully accountable, rather than held within the straitjacket of another Government’s philosophy Mr MacNeil: I thought the hon. Gentleman was with which we disagree. Does he want to intervene again? going to stand at the Dispatch Box to tell us what Johann Lamont is thinking about the cuts commission, Mr McKenzie indicated dissent. but he failed to do that. Mr MacNeil: No, the hon. Gentleman is very happy. Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): There is a lot of Gregg McClymont: Can the Scottish Government deflection going on. The Labour party has said that not spend the block grant in any way they see fit? nothing is off the table, which might mean £9,000 per child per year to go to university, a return to a tax on ill Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely correct: health with charge-free prescriptions going and all that. the Scottish Government can do so, but they have to In his heart, does my hon. Friend not agree that this is balance the budget. In fact, although John Swinney, the ideological: the British Labour party thinks that we are Finance Secretary, balances it every year, the Chancellor part of a something-for-nothing society, when all we are of the Exchequer does not. If the hon. Gentleman doing is caring for those most in need? wants extra expenditure, he knows full well that, under the devolution settlement, he must explain what he will Mr MacNeil: My hon. Friend puts it very well: we are cut. It is, “Want, want, want,” but he has not made any caring for those in need. Our hearts should go out to suggestions about what he will cut. those needing help, and we should not be thought of as part of a something-for-nothing society. Mr Weir: Will my hon. Friend acknowledge that although funds for fuel poverty programmes have all Gemma Doyle: Will the hon. Gentleman tell us how been slashed down here, they have continued to be much less money there would be to spend on public invested in Scotland; that child poverty in Scotland is services in Scotland if his party gets its way and cuts tax now lower than in the UK as a whole; and that, worst of for big business? all from the Scottish Parliament’s point of view, one of the drivers of poverty is the welfare changes controlled by this Parliament, not by the Scottish Parliament? Mr MacNeil: If my party gets its way, there will be more money for services in Scotland, because our fiscal Mr MacNeil: My hon. Friend is absolutely correct. position is far better than the UK’s and our deficit per We can see that again in the philosophy behind the capita is lower. If we become independent, we can do a bedroom tax, which is not one that I subscribe to in any lot more to help. I hope that the hon. Lady does not way. Last night, I stumbled across a Channel 4 programme hold the position of the hon. Member for Lanark and on Walsall and Glasgow housing authorities. It talked Hamilton East (Mr Hood). Last Thursday, he told us: about having to demolish houses in Walsall, due to their “If the Scottish people are going to be better off economically being left empty: people cannot stay in them because of and so on, I would still be against breaking away from the their cost and what people have lost in welfare. Glasgow Union.”—[Official Report, 6 February 2014; Vol. 575, c. 467.] housing authority has demand for 1,500 more one-bedroom If by becoming independent we can fight poverty, will properties—people want them so that they will not be the hon. Lady support independence? 749 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 750

Mr Jim Hood (Lanark and Hamilton East) (Lab): I Mr MacNeil: I must tell the hon. Lady that, to be am quite amazed that the hon. Gentleman is surprised absolutely honest, I have not considered that question that I and many other hon. Members are against his politically. [Interruption.] Labour Members are mocking, nationalism. To put my comment last week in context, I but they would, because they probably have no response. said that despite the lying of the SNP Government and If they have one, they are more than welcome to intervene. the Westminster Government here, I would not support If the hon. Member for Ochil and South Perthshire nationalism and would therefore vote against his (Gordon Banks) wants to limit the pay of top footballers, Government. He should not be surprised, because I he can jump up to the Dispatch Box and tell us how. have always opposed nationalism. I always will oppose The hon. Member for Solihull (Lorely Burt) addresses a nationalism, because I do not make judgments about point that we should look at and think about in our people on the basis of the side of the road or the side of society, since it is one of the jarring unfairnesses and the bed they were born on. inequalities. People working together shoulder to shoulder with such massive disparities sums up what is happening Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I in our society. think the hon. Gentleman has got the message across. In the report “Working for Poverty”, Dr John Sentamu’s foreword starts with a nugget from the CBI director-general Mr MacNeil: I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman John Cridland, who said that there are has intervened, but I am surprised that he says he is “still far too many people stuck in minimum wage jobs without against nationalism, because we live in nations. That is routes to progression…and that’s a serious challenge that business why we have the United Nations of about 193 nations. I and government must address.” am not sure exactly what structure he favours. Is he is in I again praise the Archbishop of York for saying elsewhere favour of the abolition of the Parliament in Westminster in his report that business itself has to step up to the and of the UK state? plate and make sure that people are getting a fair day’s pay for a fair day’s work, but praise is due to John Cridland Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman also, for his remarks at the outset of the report. must sit down. I will be helpful: we have had a good Making work pay is important—very important. The debate about chocolates, and I want to get back to UK taxpayer is paying a staggering £3 billion to £6 billion inequality. I certainly do not want to get bogged down to cover the costs of inadequate pay, which affects a in the rights and wrongs of abolition. I know that he is colossal 5.24 million workers—an increase of 400,000 desperate to finish his speech on inequalities, and I am in the past 12 months alone. That is welfare on a sadly desperate to hear it. grand scale, for which we should not be asking the taxpayer to foot the bill. Mr MacNeil: My speech is about making lives better The report notes that the prices of everyday items for people wherever they are from and wherever they have risen faster than prices of other goods. Food costs are worldwide. That is the important point to bear in 44% more than in 2005 and energy costs have more than mind. doubled. On the bright side, it notes that vehicle costs The “Working for Poverty” report even touches on have remained stable and the cost of audiovisual equipment the untouchables of our society—football clubs. It states: has halved. In more serious terms, the report notes that “Research from Citizens UK shows it would take a full-time children of parents on low pay are less likely to achieve cleaner 13 years to earn what top footballers earn in a week. in school compared with their peers at every stage of Football clubs are important institutions in communities across their childhood education. A living wage employee gets the UK. They should be setting an example to employers nationwide.” nearly double the amount of family time in a typical I must praise the columnist for The Observer Kevin working week as someone on the national minimum McKenna who, like me, is a supporter of Celtic football wage—a subject I shall return to later in my speech. club in Glasgow, the richest team in Scotland. Sadly, a The report lays out more correctly the problem in the few months ago, Celtic refused to pay the living wage to gains of productivity and their distribution, noting that all its staff at the ground. It turned Mr McKenna’s the arrangements are such that economic growth alone stomach that those subject to such wage inequality will not necessarily solve Britain’s low pay crisis. Unlike could rub along, shoulder to shoulder, with people the hon. Member for Bedford (Richard Fuller), I think earning tens of thousands of pounds a week. That has the Government have a role to play; it is not just a also turned the stomachs of many football fans, especially matter for well-meaning individuals. Paul Krugman given that Celtic had cashed in on the story of Brother and Joe Stiglitz observe that low pay takes demand out Walfrid, a Marist brother who now lies at rest in Dumfries, of the economy, as the people circulating money in the who started Celtic as a means to help the poor of the economy are those who are on low pay. There is even an Glasgow east end in the 1880s. I do not mean to single argument that higher unemployment benefit is an economic out Celtic, but to give an example of the toleration of multiplier, in that the money that goes into recipients’ those in even rich organisations for the shocking pay pockets circulates more quickly. levels given to people the whites of whose eyes they see daily. Frankly, it removes the shine, lustre and glitz from Gemma Doyle: The hon. Gentleman is being generous. the big football clubs of our land when we realise that He mentions the opinions of Professor Joseph Stiglitz. gritty reality and see it up close. Is he aware of another of Professor Stiglitz’s comments: “Some of you have been told that lowering tax rates on Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): I have every sympathy corporations will lead to more investment. The fact is that’s not for what the hon. Gentleman is saying, but what is his true. It is just a gift to the corporations increasing inequality in party’s policy on tackling the scourge of overpaid football our society.”? players? Will he reconsider his position on corporation tax? 751 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 752

Mr MacNeil: Had the hon. Lady been in Parliament Some of this debate is mere dry statistics. We should when Labour were in power and seen what her party did look at some of the human stories in the “Working for in that period, she might be less bold. We have to look Poverty” report—the accounts of normal, decent people at what is good for Scotland and what we can do to across the countries who are trying to earn an honest create opportunity and employment in Scotland, and I living in a state, the UK, that does not value all its will not resile or shy away from that in any way, shape or citizens fairly.Their stories should be heard and understood; form. they inform the debate and help to remove the dryness The contention is that money is not circulating. That of the statistics. is why some years ago we had a fiscal stimulus and why we have had quantitative easing. My problem with Stewart Hosie: Very generously indeed, my hon. QE is that it has not been aimed at the demand recovery Friend has praised the Prime Minister, who at least for which Stiglitz and Krugman would look; instead, in wants to do something about the minimum wage, but is the opinion of many, it is propping up financial institutions. it not disappointing when the hon. Member for East I note that, at one time, Ben Bernanke suggested that Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson) was answering questions the way to return demand to Japan 20 years ago, when about the living wage, she said, even though it is £7.65 in the country was experiencing stagflation, was to take a Scotland and £8.80, that it was “too difficult to calculate”? helicopter full of yen notes and fly above Japanese cities Is not that a rather bizarre position for the UK Government shovelling them out. That is certainly one way to return to take, given that we already know what the figures are? demand to the economy, but of course serious voices would recoil at the idea and not allow it to happen. Mr MacNeil: My hon. Friend puts it very well indeed. There are some answers in economics, however, that are I do not think any more needs to be said. counter-intuitive to many of the things we naturally feel Case study 1 in the interim report from the Living and do daily. We should not be afraid of looking at Wage Commission is Paul’s story. The report tells us that some of the other, more grounded, ideas, but I fear that “Paul is a support worker in the care sector in the North West a Government who have chosen the cult of austerity of England. His partner is a youth worker in the youth justice over the pursuit of growth are unlikely to look imaginatively sector for the local Borough Council. They have a sixteen year old at what they can do for the economy—they certainly daughter and are both paid below the Living Wage.” have not done so in the past three years. Paul says: Growth in productivity has not been matched by “I started work for my current employer in 2009 and have growth in wages. The “Working for Poverty” report notes never been given a pay rise. During this time I have experienced a that palpable leap in the cost of living. My wife started her employment “Wages and economic output began to decouple in 2003, five in 2010 and she has witnessed a drop in the amount of money she years before the onset of the financial crisis. Real average wages is paid for her considerable and anti-social working hours. have grown by 13% since 1999, whereas economic output”— We are both working full-time, living in local housing association rented accommodation and we are always struggling to pay our that is, productivity— way. We have no luxuries, we have not been on holiday and we do “has risen by four times this rate.” not socialise. We work, eat and sleep. There are no extra benefits we can claim to help us. There is little we can hope to do but keep That means again that economic growth alone will not on working in the hope that we will eventually see some ‘light at solve Britain’s low pay crisis. The Government should the end of the tunnel’. set up a commission of inquiry into poverty and inequality, I have juggled our debt as best as I am able to. I have moved as we call for in the motion, to look at how we can some debt onto zero interest credit cards which have given us an improve the lives of citizens—people we see daily; people 18 month window to clear some debt without accruing the hefty we perhaps knew in school, or relatives; people who live interest charges which would be crippling. in our communities. They should not be left behind, We are substantially in arrears with the rental of our home. with only 18% escaping low pay over a decade, as we The landlord is attempting to negotiate a payment plan to help us heard earlier. In a further example, the report notes that to manage this debt. We avoid doing so to enable us to more flexibly manage our debt. One week we can pay a little off our “Productivity growth and median pay began to decouple in the rental debt but the next we must buy food and fuel, pay outstanding 1980s and median hourly earnings have failed to keep pace with vets bills, and more besides. the average value of output that workers produce.” We often spend days apart. This is due to my low pay and the I am heartened to know that even the Prime Minister need for me to do sleep-in duties as a carer to garner something supports the living wage, saying that where companies like a liveable income. We can often only communicate through can afford to pay the living wage, they should. A living rushed text messages and leaving voicemails for each other. Our wage is only £7.65 an hour—that is the figure mentioned sixteen year old daughter misses us both greatly. We did not even in the White Paper for independence and in the “Working have a day out together as a family in 2013.” for Poverty” report. That is only £306 for a 40-hour That one story crystallises in many ways the nub of week or about £16,000 per annum—not a king’s ransom today’s debate. I am grateful to the Archbishop of York by any means. We should remember that the minimum for his report and for setting out people’s experiences. wage is £6.31 an hour, so it takes an increase of only Perhaps the saddest line in that quotation is: £1.34 an hour to get to the living wage. I praise the “We work, eat and sleep”. Prime Minister for what he said, but while he apparently sees the justice and wisdom of the measure, as a politician It is shocking that the citizens of a first-world, G7 in charge of a Government, he is doing nothing about country are living in that way. it. We should realise that life is short, life in politics is Government Members often talk about the importance shorter, and life in power is shortest of all, so Governments of family as a building block of society. I would argue should take the opportunity when they have power to that the living wage benefits and reinforces families. To do a lot to improve the lives of the people they govern. take home the same wage that an employee on the living 753 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 754 wage would receive for a typical 37.5 hour week, minimum She says: wage earners would have to work 52.3 hours a week in “I have pretty much always worked for minimum wage. I London or 45.5 hours a week outside London. In a worked in an office photocopying for two years, I have worked in typical Monday-to-Friday working week, that is equivalent customer service, I once sat watching a TV screen and counting to working 10.5 hours a day in London or 9.1 hours a cars on clickers. I’ve done all sorts.” day outside London. That rises to 11.5 hours for London That is another example of a person who is trying to or 10.1 hours outside London if we include an hour’s better herself, but who is— lunch break. A worker who does a Monday-to-Friday job in London Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I on the national minimum wage, who gets the Government’s have a good feel for the examples, as, I am sure, does the recommended amount of sleep each night and who has House. This should be the hon. Gentleman’s speech, an average commute therefore gets only three hours and not just a speech full of examples from other people. I 45 minutes to spend as they wish in each week day. The have allowed a few examples to go, but I have heard same employee would get six hours and 45 minutes of enough for now. I want to hear from the hon. Gentleman, time each day if they were paid the living wage. That is rather than other people. an extra three hours a day or almost double the time that a minimum wage worker has to spend with their family or to do anything else that they want to do. That Mr MacNeil: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. It is shows how those in low-paid jobs have little work-life because of my modesty and kindness that I want to balance and have to sacrifice the time that they spend share the wisdom of others. I do not see myself as the with their children or on social engagement. That can sole well of wisdom. [Interruption.] “Thankfully,” say lead to other problems further down the line. If ever my SNP colleagues. there was an example of what an additional £1.43 an We have to consider how poverty and inequality are hour could bring, that is it. affecting young people. I spoke to a young person When we hear people using the family as a political recently who said, “It’s difficult being young. Houses argument in future, it must be backed up by some are expensive. We have tons of student debt. The costs economic and legislative muscle in order that people of living are rising and wages don’t go up. It’s sort have a decent wage and a decent start in life. The most of tough being young at the moment.” That young important point to make is that the people we are person was right. I was at university when student loans discussing are working—they are the working poor. came in. I followed a demonstration against student They work long hours to do what they can for themselves loans that was led by a student who later became an and their families, yet they are unable to participate MP. I later saw him on television backing Labour’s properly in society. introduction of tuition fees in 1998. I cannot remember his constituency. It is a damning indictment of all of us in this House that we have tolerated the emergence of such a reality in There has been a sharp rise in the number of 24 to our midst over the past few decades. Although I am 34-year-olds who are living at home with their parents. only 43, all of us have a responsibility for that. We have As Joe Stiglitz said, that is not due to a rush of filial a responsibility to speak out about it. That is why we devotion, but because they have no choice. The economic are having this debate. I hope that the Government will cards are stacked against them. Youth unemployment is listen and will bring forward a commission of inquiry high in many countries. It is too high in Scotland and on inequality and poverty, because those issues blight higher still in the UK as a whole. Instead of getting on the lives of far too many people. It should simply be with their lives, the young find themselves in a holding stopped. pattern. The SNP has done what it can in Scotland by keeping tuition fees at zero, which is saving families from paying Jonathan Edwards: Does my hon. Friend share my £36,000 for a four-year degree. Families risk having to concern at the lack of interest in this policy agenda, pay that if we vote no to independence. We know that which is demonstrated by the number of Members who there are cuts down the line and some people think that have put their names forward to speak in this debate? this is a something-for-nothing society and that certain The Westminster parties do not care and just do not things should be taken off the table. We do what we can get it. with the powers that we have, but we want to do so much more. Mr MacNeil: It is disappointing that more Members An exciting proposal in the White Paper that will have not engaged in the issues of poverty and inequality. tackle inequality is to follow Sweden’s example on child Cynics would say that if this were a debate on Members’ care. Parents of early-years children in the UK face the pay, conditions and benefits or any other reform of the highest child care costs in Europe. Parents in Scotland House of Commons, the Benches would be full. Alas, spend about 27% of household income on child care, we are debating a topic far removed from that. That is compared with the OECD average of 12%. Independence why I have tried to humanise the debate. would give us the opportunity to make transformational I was not going to read Becca’s story from the Living changes to the way in which Scotland provides child Wage Commission, but it is a cracker of a story. The care services. That will allow women, in particular, to report states that she work without worrying about the cost of looking after “lives in Leeds and has worked in minimum wage jobs since she their children. With independence, the benefits of their was a teenager. Now in her thirties, she has a degree and wants to work, such as economic growth and tax revenue, will start up her own business, but she can not find the money or stay in Scotland and contribute to the costs of child the time.” care provision. 755 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 756

[Mr MacNeil] a very time-limited debate made no real mention of the future, and there was no mention at all of poverty. The Scottish Government plan to have a universal Unfortunately, we seem to have made a god of money, system of high-quality early learning and child care and we treat those who do not get hold of it as somehow from the age of one up to school entry. At the end of the inferior beings. In fact, as somebody once remarked, the first year of an independent Scottish Parliament, every cure for cancer might well be found in a child living in a three and four-year-old and vulnerable two-year-old poor household. They should be given a helping hand will be entitled to 1,140 hours of child care. That is the and an opportunity for their future because—who same amount of time as children spend in primary knows?—they could help us some day. school each year and is equivalent to 30 hours per week I have a couple of final reflections. It was said of over 38 weeks. That is an important aspiration. It Nelson Mandela that he not only liberated the blacks in demonstrates one way in which we should be moving South Africa, but also the oppressors. When I look at our society forward. It would certainly be a way to inequality I see, of course, great insecurity at the bottom, reduce inequality. but I also see insecurity at the top. People realise that It has been argued that inequality has caused the rise when the safety nets are removed, they themselves are a in household debt because people try to keep up with step or an accident or two away from going down. If the Joneses. There are more pernicious examples of those people do not have a society with safety nets in what inequality can do. Professor Paul Krugman states: place for their own security, they can never fully relax. “Before the financial crisis of 2008 struck, I would often give They need to get more and gather more because—who talks to lay audiences about income inequality, in which I would knows?—they, a relative or a friend might need it. point out that top income shares had risen to levels not seen since That struck me very strongly when I was at Alabama 1929. Invariably there would be questions about whether that state university on an exchange programme with a US meant that we were on the verge of another Great Depression—and I would declare that this wasn’t necessarily so”. Congressman and we went to see a game of American football. We were taken to the president’s box of the In the end, it turned out that that was the case. Once university, and there were people who had made it in again, we are not arresting the growth in inequality. Are life. I met a man from Leeds, but it struck me that we on the verge of repeating the same mistake? I wish despite having made it, the talk was all about health that we would learn, but we seem not to be doing so. insurance, health care, and what sort of plan people Some voices in the world are talking about inequality. had—conversations we do not have in this country. In Yesterday, the mayor of New York, Bill de Blasio, made reality, there was deep insecurity because the social nets a speech about tackling inequality in New York. My were not there to help everybody. When the nets are not only criticism is that, when one looks at the detail, it is there for the poorest and most vulnerable, we, our quite timid. The Pope has said: friends, our relatives, the relatives of relatives and friends “The promise was that when the glass was full, it would of friends, are all but one step away. It is not a nice overflow, benefiting the poor. But what happens instead, is that situation to be in, and I could see the fear in the whites when the glass is full, it magically gets bigger nothing ever comes of their eyes. Even though they personally had made it out for the poor.” in society, there was massive insecurity around them. The church and nation committee of the Church of Just as Nelson Mandela liberated the blacks and the Scotland addresses that issue frequently and, as I said, oppressors, so too does the arresting of inequality liberate the Church of England’s Archbishop of York has also the poor and the rich—not quite in equal measure, but done great work. A number of US Senators are aware it certainly liberates them both from the insecurity that of the problems and what is happening. inequality brings to us all. We should work to get rid of In my view, Governments should concentrate on inequality, and I hope that when we have independence, growth and jobs. The deficit obsession and austerity we can prove that one of the best ways of fighting cult has taken demand from the economy and probably inequality and poverty is through the prosperity that I led to a slower recovery—we have probably lost years as expect we shall bring to Scotland. a result of the policies that were followed. We cannot fully prove that because we do not have a controlled 3.3 pm environment in which to do so scientifically, but the Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): It is a pleasure to feeling among many economists is that growth has not follow the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar returned as strongly as it should have done, and that (Mr MacNeil). In 1979 I spent a fantastic summer when it did come back it was three years delayed. holiday on the Isle of Barra—something that I have We are in food-bank Britain; we have the bedroom promised my children I will repeat at some point. tax hammering people. VAT, one of the most regressive taxes, has been increased to 20% in this Parliament. Mr MacNeil: You’re very welcome to come back. That is a real shame and something that hits people disproportionately. We have had the cut to the 50p tax Guto Bebb: Thank you. rate. That probably cost £4 billion to £5 billion in This has been an interesting and passionate debate revenues, although the Commons Library has stated thus far, but I would like to pick up on a few points that behaviour alteration should mean that it will cost made by the hon. Gentleman about the minimum wage. only £0.5 billion. Only £0.5 billion? That means that the Members across the House will share the aspiration to cut to the 50p rate of tax has cost the Exchequer and increase the minimum wage, but to accuse the Prime not raised any extra revenue. Minister of inaction when he has simply stated a need In the debate last Thursday—I am coming to a to consider the facts is slightly unfair. On Friday, I met a conclusion, Mr Deputy Speaker—it was sad that many number of constituents who run small hotels in my of those Members who had the opportunity to speak in constituency. Not a single one of those six businesses 757 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 758 had posted a profit in excess of £15,000 for the past three Guto Bebb: I am responding to the initial comments years, yet they all employed people and each paid slightly that proportional representation leads to a more involved above the minimum wage. They want to do the right thing electorate. I would challenge that because, as I was and retain their staff, but when talking about prosperity about to say, in my constituency 70% of constituents and creating jobs, we must ensure that anything we do turned out in 2010 on a first-past-the-post race, but with the minimum wage does not destroy the very thing under a PR system in 2011, the turnout was only 40%. that helps people out of poverty, which is having a job. If we want democratic engagement, I argue that the evidence for the hon. Gentleman’s point is not clear. Lorely Burt: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point Finally, I agree with the hon. Gentleman that when about the minimum wage, but is he aware that were the trying to ensure full employment in Wales and supporting Government to adopt the Liberal Democrat policy of businesses—all part and parcel of improving equality increasing the threshold at which people start to pay tax and job opportunities—we must support our small to the minimum wage, that would achieve the living wage? businesses and ensure that our banks are lending. My hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made Guto Bebb: There is certainly an argument that to huge strides in trying to ensure that the banks support increase the minimum wage when, as things currently small businesses, but I accept the arguments about the stand, the Government have already taken tax out of need for further intervention to support small businesses the minimum wage, would look as if they were kicking in Wales. businesses for the sake of kicking them. I have supported I take from the comments of the hon. Member for the fact that the Government have increased the personal Carmarthen East and Dinefwr an implied rejection of allowance dramatically, which has made work pay for the work of Finance Wales, an organisation which has people in many circumstances, but my point is that existed in Wales for a long time and has the purpose taking time over a decision is not something we should of supporting small businesses. In my view, it is a be ashamed of. Indeed, we should be proud of taking Government-supported way of supporting small businesses. time to make the right decision on something that is so On Friday, however, in my constituency I met a small important for a constituency such as mine, where 27% hi-tech IT company employing 23 people, which had of the working population are either self-employed or been asked to pay 9% above base to be lent money by work for small businesses. Finance Wales. That is the type of behaviour that, if I must take issue with a few points raised by the hon. undertaken by the banks, we would be criticising openly. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan The initiative is supported by the Welsh Labour Edwards) in his opening remarks. He began his speech Government, and they should ask themselves serious by talking about Hywel Dda, who was indeed classified questions when small businesses trying to create as one of the better Welsh kings. I was, however, surprised employment opportunities in my constituency are offered to hear the hymn of praise to a royalist from an avowed penal rates to borrow money. republican. Indeed, in terms of Hywel Dda, or Hywel I have some sympathy with the comments made by the Good, being good, perhaps the true title should be the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr. I Hywel the not-so-good. In addition to being the man share his surprise at the behaviour of the Labour party who classified and created Welsh law, he also ordered in the Welsh Grand Committee last week. Democratic the execution—the murder, I should say—of his brother- engagement is part and parcel of the process through in-law in order to take over the kingdom of Dyfed, which we engage people and tackle inequality. However, which is the current constituency of the Under-Secretary the Labour party’s rejection of the entirety of the Silk of State for Wales, my hon. Friend the Member for commission report, with the exception of borrowing Preseli Pembrokeshire (Stephen Crabb). Furthermore, powers, should concern us greatly. If we are to create so as to extend his kingdom to the north and take over equality, in Wales and in the United Kingdom as a the whole of Wales, he also dispossessed the two sons of whole, we should avoid spending more money on debt Idwal Foel from Gwynedd. When giving examples, I repayment than we do on education. The only part of think we must put the man in the context of his time. It the Silk commission report that the Labour party seemed is interesting to highlight, however, that the Hywel Dda willing to support was more borrowing powers—no laws were in many ways ahead of their time in trying to surprise, perhaps—but that is a betrayal of the aspirations achieve a level of equality between the sexes—not something that those of us on the Government Benches have for that we saw in other parts of the United Kingdom for a the people of Wales. very long time. I also take issue with the comments by the hon. Mr MacNeil: I have been hearing quite a bit about Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr about a the Welsh Labour Government’s rejection of more powers proportional system of electing people leading to greater going to Wales, but I still cannot find the reason for engagement with the political process. It is an attractive that. Do they doubt their own abilities of stewardship argument, but one that can be rejected simply by looking and governance? Does the hon. Gentleman know why at the situation in Wales. We have 40 Members of they do not want them? Parliament who are elected on a first-past-the-post basis, and 60 Members elected to the Welsh Assembly, which Guto Bebb: It is not for me to correct the hon. uses a version of proportional representation. In a Gentleman, but I am not sure whether the proposals constituency such as mine, however, 70% of the electorate— were rejected by the Welsh Government. They were certainly rejected by the Labour Front-Bench team in Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I am Westminster—a significant difference. Perhaps Labour a bit worried that we are getting in to a debate on Members can enlighten us on whether there is a lack of proportional representation. I presume the point is trust between the Westminster team and the Assembly linked to fairness and equality somewhere. team. 759 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 760

[Guto Bebb] Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. In fairness, the hon. Gentleman has had a good day. He has made a lot of The motion is wrong-headed in many ways, but its interventions and he spoke for almost an hour, so to try key failure is highlighted in the final sentence, which to make another speech is unacceptable. A lot of Members “calls on the Government to halt its further spending and welfare want to get in. cuts”. That tells us that the motion is not serious. It talks Guto Bebb: I reject the hon. Gentleman’s argument. about the importance of creating equality and opportunities To have more equality, we need more jobs and economic and supporting people and communities, yet it does not opportunities. The hon. Gentleman argues that that recognise that to have a successful, sustainable economy would happen with more Government spending as a we cannot carry on borrowing at rates that are unsustainable proportion of the economy. If that was the case, then in the long term. There is nothing moral, fair or reasonable Wales would be, by a long stretch, the most successful about asking our children and grandchildren to pay for part of the United Kingdom, because there is no part of our mistakes. We have a responsibility to future generations the UK more dependent on the public purse. The not to saddle them with unsustainable debts. We have dependency on public spending in Wales has led to an ageing population and a demographic problem, nowhere failure not over the past three or four years, but over a more so than in parts of north Wales that I represent. 15 to 20-year period. It has not led to economic growth We face a real challenge to care for the elderly and to or prosperity, and it has not led to economic opportunities. ensure that we have a fair pension system. Future Indeed, the very reverse is true: the size of the state generations will have to meet those obligations. In asking in Wales is one of the reasons why the rebuilding job them also to meet our inability to take hard decisions, being undertaken by the Westminster Government is so the motion is not a serious one, and it deserves to be important. In a Welsh context, we have created an rejected. economy that is unbalanced and has not created the variety of jobs needed to support our young people and ensure that we have an equal society. I argue very Jonathan Edwards: Will the hon. Gentleman inform strongly that anybody who says that the answer to all the House what the debt to GDP ratio is now—it has economic issues in a Welsh context is more public risen under this Government, of course—and what it spending is simply wrong. was in 1947, when the NHS was created? Jonathan Edwards: Will the hon. Gentleman give Guto Bebb: The hon. Gentleman has made this point way? on numerous occasions. He is absolutely correct to say that the level of debt has increased under this Government, Guto Bebb: I will try to make a bit of progress. but for a party that says the level of debt should have increased at an even faster pace, it is hardly reasonable The key point to remember is that those who now to argue that this Government have therefore failed. It claim that the economic recovery has been too slow in should also be pointed out that we have an NHS that is, coming are the exact same people who claimed that rightly, much more expensive and costly than it was in unemployment would increase dramatically because of 1948, so that is a false analogy. the decisions taken in 2010. They are often the same voices who argued that there could be no growth without public spending, yet in Wales and in the whole of the Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): Dare I UK we are seeing a vast increase in private sector say it, but the comment by the hon. Member for employment. We have 1.5 million new private sector Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) shows jobs, a ratio of almost 4:1 in comparison with the loss that until we balance our books and are in surplus we of jobs in the public sector. Wales is not an exception. will never start to pay down debt. His motion contradicts Time and again when this is debated in the Welsh his desire to reduce the debt to GDP ratio. media, we hear people saying that the economic recovery is happening in London and the south-east. That is Guto Bebb: I fully accept and endorse my hon. Friend’s simply not reflected in the facts. In Wales, unemployment comments. It is important, when we debate public spending is falling and employment rates are increasing. and the level of so-called cuts, to bear in mind that we Anyone who is genuine about the opportunities necessary are running a state that is not meeting its obligations. to reduce inequality would welcome the jobs that are Even in this financial year, we are borrowing £110 billion. being created. What we often hear from the parties on We are not out of the woods by any stretch of the the Opposition Benches, however, is a complaint about imagination. It would be an irresponsible Government the type of jobs being created: that they are not proper who would damage the opportunity for people to have jobs and not the type of jobs we should be proud of. more equality through a willingness to borrow more That is such a demeaning comment to make to people without any plan to reduce the country’s level of debt. going out of their way to try to earn their living. I wonder how someone working in a Tesco or an Asda in Mr MacNeil: Is the problem for the Government not my constituency feels when they hear a member of the that the rush and the desire to attack the deficit has Labour party demeaning a job as nothing more than taken the focus away from what they should be doing: shelf stacking. Such comments from a party that claims returning demand and growth to the economy? To to represent labour are utterly disgraceful. I have made this make an equivalence between the national economy point to the House previously and I will make it again. and a household budget is wrong-headed in the extreme One of the most moving things I have done as an MP and has led to the three-year delay in growth. It is was to visit a Tesco partnership store in Toxteth, in leading to the wrong policies and— Liverpool. I can tell Members that a visit from a 761 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 762

Conservative MP from north Wales is not something is that we should carefully consider moving towards a that happens very often at any store in Liverpool. The point where we do not need tax credits, as the imperative Tesco store in Toxteth was the largest inward investment is to allow people to earn a living and pay as little tax as into Toxteth since the riots in 1982. It was Tesco that possible on their earnings. That should be the aspiration. undertook that investment. Half the staff employed at that store had been unemployed long term—for more Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): My hon. Friend than 18 months. The retention rate was more than 94% mentions the issues caused for his constituents by the and the pride they showed in the fact that they were way in which the Labour party dealt with income tax now working for a living was moving—there is no other and the tax threshold, but were they not compounded way of describing it. I met one lady who ran the bakery by the removal of the 10p tax rate? section and asked whether she would ever want to move on. Her response was, “I’d have to be taken out of here Guto Bebb: It undoubtedly did not help. in a box. It has given me my life back.” When we discuss inequality we should be aware of the Mr Russell Brown: I apologise to the hon. Gentleman— key point that the Government have been very proactive perhaps I am not in the Chamber as often as I should in ensuring that the inequality faced by pensioners is be—but I have yet to hear any of my colleagues condemn dealt with. We can compare the impact of the triple anyone in the retail sector. Those are valued jobs and, lock on pensioner poverty with the previous Labour as the hon. Gentleman, I and many other colleagues Government’s decision to increase pensions by a paltry 75p. know, working in retail is about much more than serving customers and stacking shelves. Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): Taxation is not just about income tax, but about VAT. Is that not Guto Bebb: I welcome that intervention from the hon. perhaps the most unfair tax on those at the bottom of Gentleman, who clearly understands the importance of the pile? the retail sector. I was talking about comments made on radio and television by members of the Labour party. Guto Bebb: I would reject that argument. We talk When I hear those comments I get annoyed as they about VAT, we often forget the exemptions. If somebody refuse to acknowledge the fact that the sector provides is buying a new Ferrari, I have no problem with their the individuals in Tesco in Toxteth, or in various businesses paying £50,000 in VAT. If somebody buys their food in in my constituency, with the opportunity to start a a supermarket, they pay 0% in VAT. If VAT were 20% career, learn a skill and move on—and I would argue on every single item, it would be a regressive tax. For that people need a job to be able to move on to another those who spend a significant proportion of their income job. It makes such a difference and those opportunities on food, or on household fuel, which is taxed at 5% should not be dismissed by those who earn far too rather than 20%, the VAT issue is not as clear cut as much to appreciate how important it is to earn a living, Opposition Members try to make it. perhaps for the first time, and, in some cases, to be the first member of a family for a generation to take a job. Debbie Abrahams: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? We need to be aware of the fact that the success we are seeing across the UK is being replicated in Wales. In Guto Bebb: Not at the moment. a Welsh economy with relatively low levels of pay, it is When we talk about inequality, it is important to even more important that we reduce the tax burden on recognise that the Government’s work on pensioner those individuals. I have heard Opposition Members benefits has significantly reduced pensioner poverty. We complain that although it is all very well to reduce should also recognise that in a country such as Wales, people’s tax bills, by increasing the personal allowance with such a high dependence on self-employment, the tax credits have been reduced. That is not about what is Government’s moves to introduce a single-tier state right for the individuals; it represents the significant pension will make a huge difference for those who are difference between the Government and Opposition. self-employed and will result in less inequality when Government Members want to allow people to keep as people reach retirement. much of their earnings as possible, because if a person goes out there and works we should tax them as little as The hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr, possible. The Opposition were quite happy to tax people who has now, unfortunately, left his seat, said that there earning as little as £6,000 a year and recycle the money was a need for more investment in a Welsh context. Let through an expensive, well-paid bureaucracy before paying me be very specific about the situation in Wales. Since it back to buy a client state. That was the dishonesty of 2000 and 2001, the Welsh Government, supported by the tax credit policy. European structural funding, has invested billions of pounds in so-called initiatives to deal with Wales’s lack Nia Griffith: Will the hon. Gentleman explain why of economic progress. When people talk about the need his party has introduced measures that have cut the for public sector investment to create wealth and taper on the tax credit system, making it much more employment opportunities, it is important to consider severe and causing more difficulties for people? Does he the case study of how European funding, spent under not agree that the only way to reduce the tax credit bill, the guidance of the Welsh Labour Government—and as tax credits top people up to a decent wage, is to under the Welsh Labour and Plaid Government for four ensure that wages go up through a strong minimum years—was used through so-called interventions that wage and incentivise employers to introduce a living wage? were meant to create employment opportunities and ensure that we had a more equal society. That has failed Guto Bebb: As the hon. Lady knows, as I have already dramatically and for the entire period of intervention touched on the minimum wage, I believe that it is a by the Welsh Government and the EU, west Wales and complex issue that must be considered carefully. My view the valleys have gone backwards rather than prospering. 763 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 764

Mr MacNeil rose— Guto Bebb rose—

Guto Bebb: Let me finish this point. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. Back in 2000, when the decision was made to apply Before the hon. Gentleman continues, I should point for objective 1 funding it was argued that this was a out that this debate has been going for more than two once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for Wales as the GDP of and a half hours, and he is only the fourth speaker. If west Wales and the valleys as a percentage of the every Member insists on taking this long, there will be a European average was roughly 74%. As hon. Members lot of disappointed people in the Chamber. I am sure he will be aware, once that percentage is above 75% the has lots to say, but so have other Members, and some highest level of EU intervention is not available. It was consideration on both sides of the Chamber could help also described as a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity because in making speeches just a little shorter than over half an in 2004 all the accession countries from eastern Europe, hour. which had been behind the iron curtain for decades, would become part of the European Union. Lo and Guto Bebb: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I behold, in two rounds since 2001 Wales not only has took my cue from the initial speeches, which I think qualified for such funding but has qualified because we lasted an hour. are going backwards rather than forwards. Those Members The issue of tax is crucial. I do not want to reduce tax who argue that public spending, Government intervention for the sake of it; I want to reduce it because it will and the “Government know best” mentality are the way stimulate the economy and bring more money into the forward for the Welsh economy should seriously consider Exchequer. The hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar the impact of public spending on west Wales and the said he wanted to reduce corporation tax to stimulate valleys. the economy.I do not understand why reducing corporation I shall now take a final intervention from the hon. tax stimulates the economy, but the same does not work Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil). for individuals. I turn to inequality and the attack in the motion on Mr MacNeil: What the hon. Gentleman is describing the Government’s welfare reforms. Those reforms are in Wales is a symptom of picking winners; things cannot crucial to the coalition Government’s legacy. In 2010, it happen there organically. What is the difference between was said the coalition came together to deal with the the EU accession states and Wales? What is the difference deficit, but just as important, I would argue, was the between Wales and the Republic Ireland, which used to welfare reform agenda. It might not work, but if it does be behind, but is now well ahead of Wales? The difference not, it will be the greatest shame. This brave effort to is that they have Governments who can make things reform our welfare system is not about penalising people happen organically within their nations, instead of having or depriving them of money; its whole purpose is to to join the “picking winners” line because of policies show faith in people—a faith never shown by the opposition from another country’s capital that do not fit their parties. needs. The Labour Government had a make-believe target for taking people out of poverty. Poverty was defined as Guto Bebb: Obviously, I do not accept most of the below 60% of the average wage, so if the average wage hon. Gentleman’s arguments; certainly, we should be rose by 10% and the wage of somebody on 60% went up careful about taking lessons from the Irish implosion. by 10%, they moved from not being in poverty to being Ireland is probably one of the few countries to have a in poverty. They were better off, but because the line banking crisis even greater than ours. Many of the had moved, they were defined as being in poverty. Even eastern European accession countries have managed to worse, if somebody was on 60% plus £1, they were create vibrant economies by imposing low-tax regimes, defined as not being in poverty and therefore a success and the whole of the UK should look carefully at those for the Government. That person did not necessarily countries’ performance. feel suddenly out of poverty—they still struggled and In the debate about whether we have a 50p, a 45p or a found life difficult—but policy makers could forget 40p tax rate, I remind Labour that it found the 40p tax them because they were above that line. That is why we rate completely acceptable for the vast majority of its ended up with 5 million unemployed people during 13 years in government. What is the purpose of income 13 years of the previous Labour Government—5 million tax? That is a question that is often forgotten. Its people, yes, who had money thrown at them so as not to purpose is not to bring down and punish the successful. embarrass Labour in relation to its poverty target, but If we believe in a more equal society, we want more 5 million people forgotten by Labour and denied the money coming into the Exchequer, because that means initiative to work because they were being paid to be on we can do more to support the less well-off in society, welfare. It was deeply shameful that they ignored people but we have lost sight of that argument. If we reduce in that way, and I am proud to be part of a coalition taxes and get more money coming into the Exchequer, Government who are at least making an effort to deal that is something that should be welcomed. Time and with it. again, it has been shown that when taxes are reduced, Between 2005 and 2010, 400,000 people born in the more often than not, the result is more economic activity UK moved into unemployment, yet 700,000 jobs were and a greater success story. taken by people not born in this country. There was something wrong with a system that said to people in Richard Fuller: Does it not strike at the economic my constituency, “You can be on welfare, while someone illiteracy of the shadow Front-Bench team that they are from eastern Europe works in the local hotel or the far more interested in a headline tax rate than in raising abattoir.” That is shameful, and we need to deal with it, revenue to pay for the public services people want? becausethe opportunity to develop must start somewhere. 765 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 766

I feel passionately about this issue when I talk to the Nia Griffith: Is my hon. Friend aware that 18 Labour deputy manager of a hotel in my constituency. He came Members spoke in that debate, and not a single nationalist to this country from the Czech Republic, and within did so? I do not blame the hon. Member for Carmarthen 18 months he was a deputy manager. I was very pleased East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards), because he was for him, but I thought that the job could have been on paternity leave, but is it not shocking that the nationalists given to someone from the locality if that person had should dare to suggest that Labour is not equally concerned not been held back by the welfare trap that we had about poverty? created. Our gradual move towards universal benefit is a brave move, but although it has been supported by Mr Brown: I have a copy of the report of the debate, Opposition Members in terms of their rhetoric, in so I am well aware of its content and of which Members terms of their actions they have rejected every effort contributed to it. that we have made to reform a system that is immoral, We may find little common ground today, but we can and is the basic reason for the fact that we have so much at least agree with the nationalist parties on the need for inequality in Wales. an inquiry into the impact of the coalition’s cuts on The Labour party in Wales should feel particularly poverty throughout the United Kingdom. ashamed. The areas in Wales that are really struggling The motion opens with the words: have given their loyalty to the Labour party not for one “That this House notes that the United Kingdom is one of the generation, not for two generations, but for three or most unequal states in the OECD, ranked 28 out of 34 countries four generations, and they have been failed time and for income inequality and the fourth most unequal country in the again. It is clear from today’s debate that the Government developed world according to some analyses”. are making really brave decisions to try to ensure that It is those last four words—“according to some analyses”— people are not seen merely as numbers so that they can that present the problem. If we look at the OECD be taken £1 over a moveable poverty line. Our coalition figures, we can see that the most recent ones are out of tries to see the value of each and every individual, and date. Definitions are provided for these figures, and the contribution that the individual can make. Nothing statistics are also provided, but because different surveys will make a bigger impact on inequality than getting and methodologies have been used, it is a real problem people back to work when they are capable of making a to get fully behind the figures and to determine what huge contribution that is currently being wasted. they are saying. In other words, statistics can prove one When I see motions of this kind, what I see is the thing to one individual but tell a different story to another. same old rhetoric of the middle-class, left-wing readers The coalition’s austerity measures have undoubtedly of The Guardian who have dominated this country for resulted in the greatest burden falling on low and middle- far too long. What we need are the reforms that are income families, while the richest have been given significant being implemented by the Secretary of State for Work tax cuts to ensure that they do not feel the cold draught and Pensions. What we need are the tax reductions that of the current economic climate. That is why Labour are being implemented by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Members have consistently called for action to tackle What we need is to show faith in the people of the the cost of living crisis caused by this Government. country, whether that country is Wales, Scotland or the Such action would include freezing energy prices, taking United Kingdom. Government Members see those people’s real action to end exploitative zero-hours contracts, and potential, but I fear that Opposition Members—especially strengthening the minimum wage now. those in the Labour ranks—saw them simply as numbers My right hon. Friend the Member for Morley and to be dealt with in the context of their poverty targets Outwood (Ed Balls) recently said that if Labour forms while doing nothing to help them, and they should be the next Government, truly ashamed of that. “we will restore the 50p top rate of tax”. I know that that causes anxiety for Government Members, 3.37 pm but we believe that, in tough times like these, those with Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab): It the broadest shoulders should bear the greatest burden. is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb). Lorely Burt: Will the hon. Gentleman tell the House for how many days the 50p rate of tax was in force Some of the best debates that we experience in the during the 13 years Labour was in power? House—on all too few occasions, it must be said—are those that mean a great deal to the people whom we Mr Brown: The hon. Lady knows as well as I do that represent, and at the same time manage to secure a it was a matter of days, but this also relates to the degree of consensus. It is therefore a great shame that comments made by the hon. Member for Aberconwy the Scottish National party, Plaid Cymru and the Greens about the impact of taxation on individuals. For most have chosen to go somewhat native today. Rather than of that time, there was never a need for that higher rate providing an opportunity for a straight vote on a of tax to be imposed. The hon. Lady knows that it was commission of inquiry to put pressure on the Government, a Budget decision to raise the rate from 40p in the they have chosen to show their real side by playing pound to 50p. Yes, that rate applied only for a matter of gesture politics. days, but the Labour Government had not felt the need Just over four weeks ago, my right hon. Friend the to increase it at any other time. Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher) led a Back-Bench business debate on the subject of Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): Will the welfare reforms and poverty. Winding up the debate for hon. Gentleman tell us how much he expects the 50p the Opposition, my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda tax rate to raise in net gains to the Treasury, and how (Chris Bryant) made clear that there was a need for a that squares with the comments from the Institute for commission of inquiry. Fiscal Studies about the policy? 767 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 768

Mr Brown: It will definitely raise more than the 40p Mr Brown: I am saying that a rosy picture is being rate raises at the moment, but the big challenge for painted. Some will say, “It is happening in London and Government Members will be whether there will be a the south-east”, but the Minister represents a Welsh reduction from 45p in the pound to 40p in the next constituency, which is rural, just as mine is. People in Budget. Can the hon. Gentleman tell me whether that rural constituencies and in some urban constituencies will happen? are finding things really difficult indeed. The situation is still pretty tough and they do not recognise this rosy Alun Cairns: I notice that the hon. Gentleman did not picture that is often painted. answer my question about the comments from the IFS. Also in the other place yesterday, Lord Lawson stated Does he accept its view that the net gain from Labour’s that policy would be negligible? “it is far more important to focus on making the poor richer than on making the rich poorer”. Mr Brown: The net gain will be significant. It will be I have to agree with that, but the Minister replied: some 11% more than is currently being raised. “we want to make sure that everybody makes a fair contribution to society and that all those in work get a fair wage for their It is notable that there is no mention in the motion of labour. Obviously, there comes a point when taking too much tax creating a fairer tax system. The Scottish National from those right at the top becomes counterproductive.”—[Official party’s plans for independence include slashing corporation Report, House of Lords, 10 February 2014; Vol. 752, c. 408-09.] tax, but it has been unable to provide any certainty on I would have to argue with that; those comments by the whether it would follow Labour in introducing a 50p Minister tell us an awful lot about what those on the tax rate. In fact, the SNP Finance Secretary in the Government Benches are thinking. Scottish Government has resisted making the party’s tax policy clear in any way. Where we disagree with the text of the motion is on the words We now accept that the driver of inequality has been “successive government of all political hues have presided over an the rate at which salaries at the top have increased in underlying trend of rising income inequality since the early recent years. Again, however, the motion makes no 1980s”. mention of that. It says nothing about how we are to get There can be no doubt that over the past 30 years or so to grips with high pay in the UK. The Labour Opposition there have been some particularly difficult and distressing have accepted the recommendations of the High Pay times for many families, but during the early years after Commission, and we have outlined three key tests that the change of government in 1997 rapid improvements the Government must meet to show they are serious were made right across the country. [Interruption.] I about executive pay being at such high levels. First, we am not about to rewrite history; I am about to tell the want firms to publish details on the ratio of employee Chamber what actually happened, because we tend to average salaries to executive pay, and for the Department forget. This relates to a point made by the hon. Member for Business, Innovation and Skills to publish a league for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards), table showing the highest ratios. Secondly, we want to because he said that if Labour were to win the next see an employee representative on the remuneration election we would be carrying out the current Government’s committee of every company. Finally, we would repeat spending plans. When Labour came to power in 1997 Labour’s tax on bank bonuses to fund a compulsory we held by the tight budgetary constraints, but as a jobs guarantee for any young person on unemployment party coming from opposition to government we decided benefits for 12 months or more. These young people are that we would spend the money in a wholly different not our future—they are part of today, and they need to manner. What did we do with the chance that came our be employed today and well into the future. That is real way? We created employment opportunities for young action to bring about fairness in our society, but what unemployed and long-term unemployed people, the we have heard from the Scottish National party and disabled and lone parents through the new deal, and Plaid Cymru this afternoon often bears closer resemblance those very chances that were given to so many people to what those on the Government Benches have been brought about a marked change when coupled with the saying. introduction of the national minimum wage and working Yesterday, during a question on economic inequality, tax credits. It was not the answer to every woe that Lord Newby stated that people had suffered under the previous Government, “according to the latest ONS statistics, income inequality in the but it was a major step forward. For many individuals, UK is at its lowest level since 1986. The Government are committed especially women, it meant that they no longer had to to ensuring that all families benefit from the return of growth to try to hold down two or three jobs to make ends meet. the economy”.—[Official Report, House of Lords, 10 February The motion makes reference to inequality between 2014; Vol. 752, c. 408.] men and women, but fails to recognise the gains made That is not what far too many individuals and households by women under the Labour Government from 1997 to are actually experiencing. Any economic recovery here 2010. I am talking about not just the minimum wage in the UK is patchwork in its nature. As I have said in and tax credits but extensions to child care, which the Chamber previously, there are many rural localities allowed more women to participate in the labour market, where households are in a desperate plight, with below and extensions to maternity leave, which meant that average earnings. women no longer had to choose between work and family life soon after having a child. Stephen Crabb: Is the hon. Gentleman saying that he Let me now mention one or two things that have been does not believe the statistics and that he does not raised this afternoon, including the issue of food banks. believe that income inequality is dropping in the UK at Over the past 12 months, there has been a 170% increase the moment? in the number of people using food banks. Between 769 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 770

2010 and 2011—some two years ago—61,468 people debt. In case the House has forgotten, when we came to were using food banks, compared with more than 346,000 power in 1997, there was 43% debt, and we paid down now. Those are only the Trussell Trust figures. There are debt as we progressed over the years to 37%. other ad hoc, less regulated, food bank systems. The hon. Member for Aberconwy spoke about taxation. The Minister mentioned welfare reform. Let me tell him, I do not have a problem, as he has, with a 50p income in case it has slipped his mind, that the previous Labour tax rate, but I do have a problem with value added tax. Government introduced three welfare reform Bills, and Our colleagues in the SNP need to be absolutely clear we maintained that those who could work should work and honest with the people of Scotland: if Scotland and should be given help and support into work. achieves independence on 18 September and becomes a full EU member state, the people of Scotland will be Pete Wishart: Where does the hon. Gentleman stand looking at VAT on food, children’s clothing, and books on the great “more powers” debate in the Labour party? and newspapers. That is fact. Is he one of the boycotters, or is he an enthusiast of The SNP is very good—and I have heard this a more powers? Would he give welfare powers to the couple of times this afternoon—at comparing other Scottish Parliament, so that it is under Scottish people’s small nations with Scotland. It is keen to mention democratic control, or does he want to keep it with the Sweden, and all too often it mentions Norway, but the Westminster Tories? problem is that they have Conservative Governments. I do not know if that is what it wants in an independent Mr Brown: I will come to that in just a moment. It is Scotland. not that I need time to think. [Interruption.] Let me tell the hon. Gentleman that I am a solid believer in devolution. Jacob Rees-Mogg: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? We put three welfare reform Bills through the House. They were designed to ensure that those with the greatest Mr Brown: I would be more than delighted to do so. need received benefits not just to exist but to live. We were able to recover that money by getting others into Jacob Rees-Mogg: I think that a Conservative work. We were making progress on that when the Government for Scotland is being a little optimistic. banking crisis hit and turned the world upside down.

Stephen Crabb: The hon. Gentleman’s party may Mr Brown: I am absolutely delighted that I allowed have introduced three Bills on welfare reform during its the hon. Gentleman to intervene. I have no wish to see 13 years in government, but the records show that it that either. ducked all the really difficult decisions on welfare reform. The one thing that the SNP does not tell the people of It was frit on that and, as a consequence, there are Scotland is just how high taxation is in those countries 200,000 people in Wales who have never worked a day that they are keen to mention and with which they make in their lives. comparisons. It cannot run away from that. On how the devolved Governments have operated in Mr Brown: I hear what the hon. Gentleman is saying, the UK until now and their record on increasing fairness but there is an element of him trying to rewrite history. and tackling inequality, the Welsh Labour Government, We were making progress. I cannot say what he experienced even in tough times, have worked to protect the most in his constituency, but there were people in my constituency, vulnerable in Wales from the Tory Government with some of whom had been out of work for a long time, Jobs Growth Wales, which will create over 16,000 jobs were disabled, or had been seen as people who would for young people in Wales, and the £35 million boost to never work, who got into employment, and that was the pupil deprivation grant in the next year. The same thanks to the excellent work of the Department for cannot be said for the SNP Government in Scotland. A Work and Pensions staff. We did make progress; it was recent report by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation noted just that it was not as much as we would have liked. that cuts by the UK Government and the Scottish Government in England and Scotland have meant that Alun Cairns: Can the hon. Gentleman point me to the most deprived local government areas receive £100 a any Labour Government in the past who left office with head less in funding. Professor Arthur Midwinter of unemployment lower than it was when they entered Edinburgh university recently concluded that office? “the SNP’s budget strategy adds to the austerity agenda”. Mr Brown: I will be honest with hon. Gentleman and I made a similar point in an intervention, as £l billion say that I cannot give him that figure. However, I think has been removed from anti-poverty programmes since he is trying to forget that there were almost 3 million 2008. Analysis by the House of Commons Library people who were unemployed under the previous shows that cuts to the most deprived areas in Scotland Conservative Government. We worked massively hard are greater than those for the least deprived. to reduce the levels of unemployment in this country, so On local government and the underfunding resulting much so that, as a Government, we were talking about from the council tax freeze in Scotland, this is a debate the potential of full employment in this country, which about fairness and equality, so let me share with the is a long way away from where we are today. House what we have seen as a result of local government being badly underfunded. Some of the poorest and Alun Cairns rose— most vulnerable people in our communities—those who need social services or who have to pay for services—have Mr Brown: Let me just mention one or two other seen an increase in the cost of services or, if those things. The hon. Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) services were free, charges have been introduced. That has left the Chamber, but she spoke about paying down hits the poorest and most vulnerable the hardest. 771 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 772

Mr MacNeil: How much does the hon. Gentleman We have also helped the rich to be relieved of more want to raise council tax by and what else is on the than their fair share of tax by increasing capital gains agenda for the cuts commission of Johann Lamont? tax and closing pension loopholes. No company now will review its tax arrangements without considering the Mr Brown: That really is a naive question, but it is not general anti-avoidance rule that we have introduced, unexpected. I am not asking for a council tax increase; I which helps focus the mind because it concentrates on am asking for local government in Scotland to be the spirit in which tax is paid, as well the fact. Sticking properly funded. It has to be properly funded. To do strictly to the law is no longer an excuse for not paying a otherwise is a false idea, especially when it falls on the fair share of tax. Under Labour, capital gains tax was shoulders of the poorest. 18%. We have increased that to 28%. If the SNP was serious about tackling inequality in We fully appreciate that households are under great Scotland, it would be using the tools of the Scottish pressure and we have taken steps to remedy that—for Government, like our colleagues in Wales, to protect example, by abolishing Labour’s fuel duty escalator, so people from the worst of the Tories. Instead, it would that when the average motorist fills up their tank, they rather not let Westminster, in the words of its Finance are paying £7 less to do that. No one denies that it is still Secretary, off the hook. At no point in the debate have expensive, but we are doing what we can to help. SNP Members explained why they think this is acceptable Liberal Democrats have made a big contribution on for the people of Scotland. I would only hope that if fairness. There is now free child care for all three and there are to be further contributions from their Benches, four-year-olds, as well as for 260,000 two-year-olds. For they will explain away some of the inaccuracies that parents who have children in child care, we have a they think are in my contribution. £1,200 tax break coming down the line. We have frozen council tax and helped local authorities to achieve that. 4.1 pm The average family will be paying around £600 less today in council tax than would otherwise have been the Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): As a Member of Parliament case. There are now 494,000 more women in employment from Solihull, I would not dream of presuming to talk and 100,000 more women in self-employment, which is about the very specialised problems of other parts of an encouraging step. We will be introducing free schools the UK, but I hope that I have a word or two to say meals for five, six and seven-year-olds, and as I have about fairness and inequality. What was unfair was already mentioned, 60% of the 2.7 million women on inheriting a £160 billion deficit from the Labour party. I low pay will be taken out of tax altogether. appreciate that it was not all the fault of Labour. The banking crash all started with a company called Lehman Mike Thornton (Eastleigh) (LD): Does my hon. Friend Brothers, which makes one wonder what might have agree that it is a wonderful aim of the Liberal Democrat happened if it had been called Lehman Sisters. I can party that everyone on the minimum wage should be blame Labour for failing to regulate banks properly for taken out of tax altogether? 13 years, and then having to bail them out with a £500 billion rescue package. I can also blame Labour Lorely Burt: Indeed. As I said to the hon. Member for allowing welfare spending to spiral up by 20% when for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb), if our aspirations are the economy was growing. That has made circumstances realised and we can raise the threshold at which people difficult for our coalition Government. start to pay tax to the minimum wage, we will achieve I am proud of what the coalition Government have something very close to what is currently regarded as succeeded in doing. We have cut the deficit by a third, the living wage. That would be a tremendous help to the with more coming from the better-off, I hasten to say. lowest-paid in Britain today. Our flagship policy of raising the tax threshold at which The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline people start to pay tax to £10,000 has taken 2.7 million Lucas), who is no longer in her place, mentioned women people out of tax altogether, of which 60% will be women. on boards. Although we do not subscribe to a compulsory threshold of 40%, it is encouraging to see that the Mr MacNeil: The hon. Lady says that more tax is percentage of women on boards has risen from 12% to coming from the better-off, which is true, but are the 19% since 2010. better-off not getting a far larger slice of the productivity pie than they have in years and decades past? Pensions are an extremely important issue for women because they have been suffering as some of the lowest Lorely Burt: I am not entirely sure what the hon. pension receivers in the United Kingdom. The triple Gentleman means by the productivity pie, but over the lock is creating a lot of support for women, but it will same period of time a millionaire would have paid over make a big difference when we reach the citizen’s pension £300,000 more in tax under the coalition Government and women receive, as they deserve, the same amount a than under the previous Labour Government. In addition, week as men, at £140 a week or whatever the equivalent 24 million people have had a tax cut of £700 or more. will eventually be. There are many other Liberal Democrat Those are good things. In addressing unfairness, we policies coming down the line, such as flexible working seek to ensure that those with the broadest shoulders and shared parental leave. bear the greatest burden of the tax. The coalition helped In conclusion, the Liberal Democrats will continue to 900,000 people out of poverty altogether between 2010 work for greater fairness, not by stripping down the and 2012, so when Labour Members talk about increasingly state, like our coalition colleagues, but by creating strong harmful circumstances, it should be pointed out that public services. We have stopped some of the more poverty increased under the Labour Government and has ambitious aspirations of our coalition colleagues, such decreased under this Liberal Democrat and Conservative as the Beecroft report’s proposals on firing at will. We Government. have stopped schools being run for profit and stopped 773 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 774 inheritance tax breaks for millionaires, and we are With devolution, the Scottish Parliament has used its continuing to work to raise the threshold at which limited powers to tackle inequality. Our continuing people start paying income tax. commitment to a social wage will deliver benefits to We want more equality and more fairness, but we also everyone in Scotland in tough financial times. We have want opportunity for everyone. The work we are doing, maintained the council tax freeze, saving the average particularly in relation to young children, will make a band D taxpayer about £1,682 by 2016-17. We have big difference. We want everyone to have opportunity, kept higher education fee-free and we are keeping student but we also want to have a safety net. We are yet to debt levels the lowest in the UK. To me, that is vital. I persuade our coalition colleagues that our proposed was the first of my generation to go to university, and I mansion tax on properties worth more than £2 million was able to do so only because there were no tuition fees is a brilliant idea, but I think that it will be. I understand and I got a grant. My daughter has recently gone from the research that we commissioned—I will now through university and, even with no tuition fees, it is make my only reference to Wales and Scotland—that now a very expensive process. I dread to think about the millionaires’ tax will apply to no one in Wales, and what debt has been piled up on kids who are going we identified 17 mansions in Scotland. I think that is through university now and how they are ever going to very fair, and I am sure that Welsh and Scottish colleagues start in life, buy a house, buy a car or get married. As in the Chamber will applaud that as a very fair tax for my hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar the people they represent. (Mr MacNeil) said, there is an increasing trend for children to stay at home much longer and to live in flat-shares well into their 40s, in some cases, because 4.11 pm they simply cannot afford the price of property. Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): The Scottish National The Scottish Parliament has abolished prescription party’s manifesto for the 2011 Scottish Parliament elections charges, making the NHS truly free at the point of stated: need, and we are supporting concessionary bus travel “Scotland can never be considered truly successful until all of for over 1.2 million of our people—over-60s, people its citizens consider themselves to be equally valued members of with disabilities, and injured veterans. We have provided society. We are determined that Scotland will constantly strive to NHS eye examinations free for all, and we have committed be a more equal society.” to free personal nursing care, benefiting more than We said that because we believe in Scotland. 77,000 older people. Labour attacked many of these things in its cuts commission. The Labour leader said Within the UK, Scotland is unfortunately part of an they were just wee things it is not in favour of—unless, increasingly unequal society, with too many trapped in of course, it is fighting by-elections, when it tries to take poverty and prevented from reaching their full potential. credit for them. As has been said, the UK ranks 28th out of 34 nations on the measure of overall inequality. OECD analysis shows that since 1975 income inequality among working-age Mr Russell Brown: The hon. Gentleman mentioned people has increased faster in the UK than in any other free prescriptions. Why am I now coming across pensioners country in the organisation. Academic analysis also in my constituency who are visiting their doctor and suggests that the UK is the fourth most unequal nation instead of being given a prescription for painkillers are of the world’s richest nations. told to go to the chemist and buy them over the counter? In a rich nation such as Scotland, it is ridiculous that in 2011-12, 710,000 people—14% of our population—lived Mr Weir: I have never heard of that one; perhaps the in relative poverty. That includes 420,000 people of hon. Gentleman should ask the doctors why they are working age, 150,000 children and 140,000 pensioners. doing that. We have made it clear that free prescriptions Despite periods of time when overall poverty has reduced, are an important policy for pensioners throughout Scotland. in-work poverty has remained high. Two thirds of children Too often, pensioners and those with multiple prescriptions who live in poverty in the whole UK have at least one had to choose whether to buy their prescription or eat, parent in paid work. We believe that it is absolutely and they do not have to make that choice any more. unacceptable that in a nation with the wealth and This is a really progressive policy, despite what his resources of Scotland one in seven of our population leader may say. live in poverty. We are investing in skills, training and education for Since devolution, Scottish Administrations have sought our young people to make sure that they all have an to promote social inclusion and cohesion. Since devolution, opportunity in life. I recently visited the Angus training child poverty levels in Scotland have fallen substantially, group in my constituency, where tremendous work is from 28% in 1999-2000 to 15% today, compared with being done to train youngsters who are leaving school a UK rate of 17%. That is a tremendous achievement and have got apprenticeships in engineering. While the by the Scottish Parliament. However, 200,000 more Chancellor may talk about the march of the makers, we children across the UK will be pushed into relative are making sure that that actually happens and there poverty by 2016 as a result of the 1% cap on increases is power behind it. We are protecting the education in benefit payments. That equates to around 15,000 maintenance allowance for 16 and 19-year-olds while children in Scotland. The Child Poverty Action Group the Westminster Government have scrapped it. These has estimated that Scotland’s child poverty rate will are just a few of the things that we have already done. increase by between 50,000 and 100,000 by 2020 as a We are committed to ensuring, where we can, that result of the UK Government’s tax and benefits policy. people get paid a decent wage. Since 2011-12, the SNP That is a terrible indictment of what is happening in our Government have paid all staff covered by Scottish country. That is why we seek independence: to tackle Government pay policy a living wage, and that includes these problems. NHS staff. No compulsory redundancy policy has been 775 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 776

[Mr Weir] care for all children aged one to five—a policy that, when fully implemented, would save families up to in place since 2007, helping to protect about 10,000 jobs £4,600 per child per year. a year. We are funding the Poverty Alliance to deliver Why do we need independence to deliver that? Because the living wage accreditation scheme to promote the at the moment, as I have said, Scotland receives a fixed living wage and increase the number of private companies budget from Westminster. We would not receive the that pay it. increased tax revenues resulting from having more women We have done a lot to deal about inequality in Scotland, in the workforce unless Westminster decided that we but what holds us back so much is the fact that the should, so under devolution the costs of providing Scottish Parliament has to depend on and fit within a increased child care would have to be met from within a block grant determined by Westminster that has been fixed budget, which would inevitably mean cuts in other steadily cut in the past few years. The Chancellor has services. Those who are making that argument need to said that another £25 billion of cuts is coming round tell us where they want to see the cuts. That social and the corner, so we can only imagine what will happen to economic transformation can be achieved only when we the Scottish block grant in that event. have access to all of Scotland’s resources, and that is why we need independence delivered to the full. Sheila Gilmore: The hon. Gentleman made a great We could also take action to ensure that most people deal of issues such as free personal care. Does he not are treated fairly and that work is genuinely a route out accept that there are still major problems in Scotland, of poverty. We should not accept this as a given, but the and if we do not address them but simply say, “We’ve fact is that many women work in low-paid jobs, so what cracked it, we’ve solved it”, we are not helping the we do with the minimum wage really matters to the people who give and who need care? When care workers living standards of women and their children. With have very poor conditions and people are getting 15-minute independence, we will able to guarantee that the minimum visits, if that, we have not really solved the problems. wage will rise at least in line with inflation every year Should we not be talking about them instead of being and not leave it to the whim of the Government of the so complacent about somehow having solved them all? day. It is interesting to note that, if the minimum wage Mr Weir: I cannot believe what I am hearing from the had increased in line with inflation over the past five hon. Lady. What I said is that the Scottish Government years, the lowest paid would be £600 a year better off have taken action on and invested money in those than they are now. That has been the cost to the lowest matters. We have not claimed that we have solved every paid of not being able to take such decisions ourselves problem under the sun—we cannot possibly do that—but and of not being able to make the impact we want on what we have said is that we have done all we can with the inequality that stalks our nation. the powers we have and that with the powers of With independence, we and not Westminster will be independence we will be able to do so much more. responsible for implementing the Equal Pay Act 1970, closing the scandalous 32% gap that still exists between Pete Wishart: My hon. Friend is making a very the pay of men and women. Why is it that 44 years after powerful speech. Does he share my great concerns that Act was passed there is still such a huge gap about the cuts commission? Labour has said that everything between their pay? is on the table and has set out a whole list of things, including tuition fees, free bus passes, prescription charges Decisions being made down here about the retirement and free personal care. Is my hon. Friend as worried as I age are also a problem. Just a few years ago, women am that if Labour gets its hands on the levers of power, could expect to retire at 60. By 2020 the retirement age those things will be under threat? for women will be 66—an increase of six years in just a decade. As things stand, young women entering the work force today will probably have to work until they Mr Weir: I do indeed have great fears about what will are about 70. Of course, we all have to accept that happen to our country if we do not get a yes vote in people are living longer and that things cannot stand September, because either this lot will continue in power absolutely still—we accepted the first rise in the retirement with the cuts already promised by the Chancellor, or we age—but the rapid increases being imposed by Westminster will have the Labour cuts commission and heaven knows are not right for Scotland, because we have different what it might come up with. demographics. We have serious problems in some of We have a different vision for our country. We will be our communities and we are working hard to deal with able to do many things with independence that we them. The fact is that life expectancy is often much cannot do under devolution. The problem of child care, lower in some of those communities than in the general for example, is not just about improving the early education population. It is, therefore, surely better that decisions of our children and helping families, important as those about the retirement age are taken in Scotland, where things are; it is also an important economic policy. If we such distinctive circumstances will be properly taken can raise female participation in the labour market to into account. the levels achieved in, for example, Sweden, we will not I have often spoken in the House on energy, and it only boost general economic performance, but raise an will be no surprise that I want to say a few words about extra £700 million a year in tax revenue. it. In its recent campaign, Energy Bill Revolution made Under devolution, the Scottish Parliament has been the point that fuel poverty has increased across the UK able to increase the amount of child care available and it by 13%, but one gain from devolution is that that is not has recently announced a further extension, but with the case in Scotland. Under the latest Scottish house independence we could go beyond that and deliver our condition survey, which was revealed at the end of last ambitious plan for the provision of free universal child year, the number of those in fuel poverty in Scotland 777 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 778 has decreased by 3.4% at a time when energy prices are I have already mentioned the particular problems rocketing. That is a tremendous achievement by successive with prepayment meters. As I have always said, they Scottish Administrations, who have made real efforts to seem to me to be slightly perverse: it is one of the few tackle fuel poverty. However, there is so much more we examples of consumers ending up paying much more could do. by paying cash in advance. It was interesting to see the hon. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) introduce his Mr McKenzie: On fuel poverty, will the hon. Gentleman ten-minute rule Bill earlier this afternoon. I very much explain why the SNP Scottish Government have changed hope that it is successful, but given how many Bills are the criteria for boiler replacements for the elderly, which to be debated on 28 February, I somehow doubt it. Labour set up? None of them can get boiler replacements. Citizens Advice Scotland recently issued a report on Mr Weir: The Scottish Government have invested energy that shows the true difficulties people face. It much more in fuel poverty measures: more is now being states that spent than was spent in the last year in which Labour “the cases highlighted by bureaux regarding difficulty paying are was in power, and much more is being spent there than most commonly with regards to prepayment meters recouping an unaffordable amount for arrears every time the consumer tops up.” is spent down here. As I have said, we have reduced fuel poverty at a time when it is rising in the UK as a whole, Citizens Advice Scotland quotes an example that sticks but we need to do more. We need to transfer fuel poverty in my mind of a single parent with two children who has measures from energy bills, which need to be reduced, to lose £7 towards arrears every time she puts £10 in the and put money into a direct programme to increase the meter; the £3 remaining is entirely insufficient to heat fuel efficiency of many houses in Scotland—particularly her home. That is totally unacceptable and is a clear hard-to-heat houses of solid wall construction—which example of the inequalities facing many of our fellow will help people. citizens. In those circumstances, she has no chance of getting out of the cycle of debt—the hon. Member for Mr Bain: Perhaps there is surprising consensus between Bedford (Richard Fuller) made that point—or even us on energy bills, because I support an energy price keeping her home warm. freeze. Will the hon. Gentleman tell us whether he and Many of our people are being forced into household his party do so? debt by the difficulties they find themselves in. The rise of the payday lenders is one of the horrible side effects. Mr Weir: I am getting a bit tired of hearing that from We heard last week about the difficulty for those who the Labour party. I have explained our position on the cannot pay for their energy by direct debit and who energy price freeze time and again. The freeze will not have to pay higher prices. It was pointed out that some work. There has already been a massive increase in bills £2 billion sits with the energy companies, making money prior to its coming in, and there is likely to be another for them rather than for consumers—another inequality after it comes in. We had a debate in the Chamber last that afflicts our society. week about inequalities in the system of billing by energy companies. Those inequalities will be frozen in Gregg McClymont: The hon. Gentleman is being place by an energy freeze, making things even worse for most generous. He is talking about the profits made by Scottish consumers. A freeze will also hit the investment energy companies. Is he aware that anyone in Scotland needed to ensure that we have jobs for the future and listening to this debate will be surprised that he and his can bring down energy prices through moving to renewables. party do not support a price freeze, but instead are in the same position as the energy fat cats? Gregg McClymont: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Mr Weir: The hon. Gentleman is like a broken record. I have explained already, and have done so on numerous Mr Weir: No, I have given way enough for the moment. occasions, our objections to the energy price freeze. It is The present UK Government have repeatedly said easy for Labour to say, “Let’s have an energy price that they took powers in the latest energy legislation to freeze.” It sounds great and I am sure many people love implement the Prime Minister’s promise to put everyone to hear it; unfortunately, it simply will not happen. It on the lowest tariff. I have pointed out before, and I will will not lead to lower bills, it will freeze in the inequalities do so again, that the measures in the Energy Act 2013 already in the system, and it will leave people with will not have that effect. The relevant sections do not higher bills, while his party leader flails about trying to require energy companies to do that, but only to make find some flesh to put on the bones of that policy. an offer, which may well be lost in the mass of paper that people receive from them. Mr MacNeil: When Labour Members talk about an energy price freeze, are they not basically saying to the Even if those changes work, they will do nothing to people, “Do you want your energy bills to go up before help some of the poorest in our society—those who we announce the freeze and to go up again afterwards?” have to rely on prepayment meters. It may be fine for It is a total con, and they know that full well. It was someone on a direct debit tariff, but those on prepayment done one weekend for a headline in a Sunday newspaper meters will be stuck on a higher tariff. Such tariffs are and they are sticking with it now. That is the long and generally higher than those available to someone paying the short of it. by direct debit, as would happen under Labour’s price freeze. That locks in price inequality. It seems to me that Mr Weir: My hon. Friend makes a very good point. if the Government are truly intent on ensuring that everyone has the lowest possible bill, they need to Alun Cairns: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is ensure that that does not apply only within the type of easy for Labour Members to call for an energy price contract people already have, but allows them to move freeze when it involves other people’s money or other to a cheaper type of contract. companies’ money, but it is different when it comes to 779 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 780

[Alun Cairns] for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker) replied that he was meeting the suppliers to tackle the issue. If the council tax rates? They have the power to freeze council Under-Secretary of State for Wales takes nothing else tax rates in Wales, but in the past three years we have away from this debate, perhaps he could ask DECC seen a 9% increase in council tax. Would they not do Ministers whether any action has been taken. I am sure better to channel their efforts into an area of policy that it is a huge issue in his constituency, as it is in mine. where they have control and could deliver lower bills? Such action would not solve these problems completely, but it would help many off-grid customers. Mr Weir: The hon. Gentleman makes his point. I just I will end by saying a little about the Scottish point out that in Scotland we have frozen council tax Government’s energy assistance package, which has for several years. We have also taken action to pay extra helped 150,000 people on low incomes to reduce their money from our already constrained budget to get rid energy bills. It has been extended for two years, which of the effects of the bedroom tax in Scotland. We should help a further 300,000 people. Originally, it was cannot get rid of the tax itself because that is controlled targeted at pensioners, but it has been extended to help by the Westminster Government; we can only mitigate other vulnerable people in these difficult times, such as the effects. the disabled—including those with severe disabilities— Another issue I have talked about in the past is the families with young or disabled children, the terminally inequality between rural and urban areas and between ill and people who are on carer’s allowance. It is now a different sections of society, particularly in relation to much greater scheme than the one that was introduced energy and the problems of those who are off the gas originally. The number of homes installing loft insulation grid. Far too often when energy is discussed, we focus has more than doubled from 40,000 in 2008-09 to on the evils of the big six. It may be good to give them a 104,000 in 2011-12. That was praised by the Committee kicking in passing, but there are also serious problems on Climate Change in its report, “Reducing emissions in the off-grid market. All of us who are off grid will in Scotland”, which was published in March. have found that prices have rocketed, much higher than While the UK Government have slashed their schemes, the price of energy from the big six companies and from the Scottish Government have continued to invest. We the grid. Pensioners in particular face serious difficulties have invested £220 million since 2009, which has resulted in paying their winter bills. in an estimated return in household income of more I have twice introduced Bills in this House and on than £1 billion. A further £250 million will be invested two occasions, I think, I have tried to amend energy over a three-year period to tackle fuel poverty. That is a legislation to tackle the problem by suggesting that the great record. As I said earlier, the number of people in winter fuel allowance should be paid earlier. I do not fuel poverty is falling in Scotland, unlike in the rest of think it would be terribly difficult, but this Government, the UK. Those are significant improvements, but we like the previous Government, seem to have a horror of still have much to do. doing that and making a real difference to the people We could achieve further improvements much more affected by the problem. easily if we had the full powers afforded by independence. We would really get to grips with inequality if we did Nia Griffith: I give credit to the hon. Gentleman for not have the dead hand of Westminster holding us the introduction of those Bills, but does he not recognise back. It is interesting that the Labour party is quite that it is now the policy of the Labour party to pay the happy to let the Tories stay in power, rather than have winter fuel payment in the summer so that customers Scotland tackle its own problems. can benefit from cheaper prices? Will he also support Labour’s policy of having a tougher regulator that can look at off-grid issues? 4.39 pm Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): I am Mr Weir: I am glad that Labour has finally adopted glad, as an Englishman, finally to be allowed to enter that policy—better late than never. In the last Parliament, into this debate, because the motion refers to the United I had numerous discussions with Labour Ministers who Kingdom. It is a great honour to speak in this debate, would not adopt it. I would be interested in what because the nationalists appear to have a very clever powers a stronger regulator would have. I have often plot, whereby they send their best and brightest people argued that the regulator should have powers over the down to Westminster to make us realise how much we off-grid sector. When I sat on the Business and Enterprise would miss them if they went independent. Since entering Committee, before the Department of Energy and Climate this House in 2010, I have become more and more Change was formed, we produced a report that asked pro-Union, simply because of the fantastic speeches we for that to happen. I have raised that issue repeatedly. hear from nationalist Members. After an intervention by the hon. Member for Wealden Today was a model of its kind. The hon. Member for (Charles Hendry) earlier in this debate, I raised the way Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) gave in which the energy company obligation discriminates an absolutely brilliant speech that started with the against off-grid gas consumers. The ECO is controlled ancient history of Wales and had the House gripped by by the big six energy companies and none of them his every word. I was sorry that I could not hear the include off-grid gas boilers in their schemes. I wrote to whole speech by the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an all of them and received various letters back that tried Iar (Mr MacNeil), as I had to go to European Committee to obscure that fact, but there was no getting around it A for a moment, but I was relieved that he was not too at the end of the day. I raised the matter at DECC brief because there was so much to be said, and he questions last month. The Minister of State, Department was almost still speaking by the time the Committee of Energy and Climate Change, the right hon. Member ended. 781 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 782

The motion itself, however, though presented with Mr Bain Will the hon. Gentleman give way? panache and oratory, is fundamentally misplaced. It goes completely the wrong way about tackling issues of Jacob Rees-Mogg: Of course I will give way to a inequality because it argues fundamentally that we should Member who represents a seat with “North East” in its all be impoverished. It is an argument that says that title. inequality is the important issue, not how prosperous people ought to be. It mentions the Mr Bain: What would be the hon. Gentleman’s answer to those well-known leftists in the International Monetary “underlying trend of rising income inequality” Fund who have published detailed research indicating but the problem is that the point at which income that when the gap between rich and poor gets too large inequality has been reduced has coincided with the in an economy, it diminishes growth and therefore recession. Yes, it is easy to reduce income inequality if living standards for everyone? we ruin the economy. If we make everybody poorer, we can all be poor—and perhaps happy—together. Actually, Jacob Rees-Mogg: The IMF is not full of well-known I think the British people will not be happy if they get leftists, but it does seem to be run, by and large, by the poorer; they will be happier if they get richer. It is of no French, who have a very different understanding of pleasure to me that during the recession, the income economics, an absolutely rotten economy, and are the of the top decile of income receivers in the United last people from whom I would take lessons. We will not Kingdom fell by 9%, and that of the bottom decile by in this Chamber go into the behaviour of the previous 2.4%. Although it could be argued that the better off managing director—it would shock the viewers of the are making a bigger contribution than the worse off, Parliament channel if they were to consider how Monsieur I do not want to see anybody’s income decline. I want Strauss-Kahn had behaved. Anyway, I will not be told everybody’s income to increase, and that requires the what to do by people who cannot behave. economic policies that this Government have followed. I want to come back to the economic benefits of the Mr MacNeil: As our state is getting wealthier and spending and saving of the wealthy. That is what provides productivity is growing, does the hon. Gentleman agree the employment and investment that leads to economic that all should share in that, and that the rent seekers at growth, and leads to the rising of living standards for the top end should not abuse their positions as CEOs or the poorest in society. That is not done by the state. The hedge fund managers and see their wealth grow by 60% state can indeed pass money around—it can reallocate to 80%, while over a decade the equivalent bottom 90% money from pot A to pot B—but that does not increase will see their wealth grow by only 17%? the fundamental size of the pot. It merely reallocates what is already there, whereas the expenditure, saving Jacob Rees-Mogg: Where I disagree with the hon. and investment of individuals in the private sector Gentleman is when he fails to recognise what those very grows the total amount that is available and therefore wealthy people do. By and large, hedge fund managers leads to cascading wealth. and corporate tycoons spend their money, and if they This is where I must come on to the specific point in do not spend it they save it. the motion calling on the Government Mr MacNeil: They spend it on wine! “to halt its further spending and welfare cuts”. The spending cuts have been essential. The Government Jacob Rees-Mogg: If they spent it on wine, that and the Chancellor of the Exchequer have been a model would help the French, rather more perhaps than the to other countries in how they have behaved. In a English, but that is slightly beside the point. They might cross-partisan moment, I thank the Liberal Democrats spend it on whisky, which will help the hon. Gentleman’s for the role they have played. It must have been particularly constituency.If they spend money, they create employment difficult for them to take these tough decisions, having and economic activity, and if they save it and put it in a not been in government for so many generations and bank, they provide the deposits against which banks facing up to more serious responsibilities than can lend. One of the great problems of the banking parties in opposition sometimes have to deal with. I crisis was that the loan-to-deposit ratio went way above think they deserve a huge amount of credit for the 100%—I think the Royal Bank of Scotland got up to support they have given to the Conservatives. Lots of 135%. It is not practical for banks to lend when they are economists, some of them quoted by the hon. Member not taking in deposits, because they then become dependent for Na h-Eileanan an Iar, were saying that it was the on overnight money, which can be withdrawn much wrong thing to do. Even the IMF had to eat its words a more easily, and has a tendency to be withdrawn more year after saying that austerity was not the right thing quickly than long-term stable deposits. When the income to do. The IMF was wrong and the Government were of the wealthy is saved, it is an economic good. right. Why was that? Mr MacNeil: Is the hon. Gentleman saying that First, when the Government came into office there before the crash the wealthy were not saving enough of was a risk that there would be a funding crisis. There their money and were perhaps squandering it in various was a risk that the Government would simply not be ways, and that one of the main reasons for the crash able to raise the money in the gilt market that they was that the banks did not have enough deposits from needed to pay for the services that the British people the wealthy? Surely if it had been in everybody’s hands, wished to receive. That was the first problem. The it would have been in the banks. second problem was that Government expenditure and very high debt crowd out private sector activity. If the Jacob Rees-Mogg: The hon. Gentleman has taken Government had not reduced spending, businesses would one bit of what I have said and applied it incorrectly. It not have been able to have access to the capital they is uncharacteristic of him not to listen more carefully, needed to begin the recovery. The third problem was and I will come on to the issue of spending cuts. that by taking money out of the economy, there was a 783 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 784

[Jacob Rees-Mogg] benefits are working and the efforts people are making to earn a decent wage are not having an effect because general depression of economic activity as individuals they are not being paid properly. Let me ask the hon. and their families had less to spend throughout the Gentleman again: does he support efforts to ensure that economic spectrum. It was being taken out of productive people are paid properly so that companies are not capacity and used unproductively merely on a money subsidised by the state? In the United States of America, merry-go-round of the state. one of the biggest recipients of welfare is Walmart and This is, again, where I like the fact that the coalition we have different examples in this country. has raised the basic threshold of income tax. I share the ambition of my hon. Friend the Member for Solihull Jacob Rees-Mogg: Once again, I am sorry to say that (Lorely Burt) that this should be increased. It is absolutely I disagree with the hon. Gentleman on that specific barmy to tax people on low incomes and then give them point. It is much preferable that the state should pay their own money back in benefits. Not only do we want benefits to people who are working and being paid the to get it to £10,000, we want to get it to the point where economic rate for their job. people on the minimum wage are neither paying national insurance nor income tax. Nia Griffith: Will the hon. Gentleman speak to his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work and Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman is mainly making Pensions about the specific issue of universal credit and points about redistribution and I disagree with him on its acting as a disincentive, particularly for the second that. In one of the longest parts of my speech, I made a earner in a family? point on the living wage and the number of people who are now working poor. He mentioned the billionaires Jacob Rees-Mogg: The basic principle of universal and rich people that we have in apparent abundance credit, which is that everybody should be better off in around the place. Should we not be seeing people at employment than not in employment, is fundamentally least earning a wage that means that they do not need to right and reducing the withdrawal rates is possibly the benefit from state welfare to top up the lack in their wages? most exciting thing that the Government are doing. If we go back to 1979—I promise you, Madam Deputy Jacob Rees-Mogg: The wages that people are paid in Speaker, that this will not be a history lesson—and look this country are set on an economically competitive at the reductions in the tax rates from 98% to 80% and basis, not just against what goes on in this country but then to 60%, we see that on every occasion the incentive on what goes on in the rest of the world. As a nation, we to work increased and revenue to the Government need to produce goods and services that people will buy. increased too. Some of the percentages for the withdrawal Then, when we have profitability and successful businesses rates for benefits are in the 90s. If people would not that grow, there will be money to pay people more. We work harder when taxed at 98%, surely they will not want more billionaires, because billionaires spend money. work harder when benefits are withdrawn at 90%-plus. Who do we think are buying all these Rolls-Royces, The model follows that if the withdrawal rates are Bentleys and Jaguars? In Portugal, the people buying reduced, motivation to work will miraculously be improved them might be quite poor, because it has a special and increased. scheme where one can win a car if one buys a cup of coffee and makes the person selling the cup of coffee That benefits the whole of society and brings me to promise to pay tax, but outside Portugal—in China, the fundamental flaw in the motion, which is that it India, America and the United Kingdom itself—the takes the view that there is a bottomless pit of money to people who buy these luxury goods are those who are be spent and that we can go on spending like there is no well off. We need those people to provide the good jobs. tomorrow, ignoring the financial markets. I want to move on to the dead hand of welfare, as it appears that the feeling expressed by those on the David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): Does my Opposition Benches—particularly by the nationalists, hon. Friend find it as surprising as I do that people on although Labour is not a million miles away—is that if the left of the political spectrum seem to want to a Government take money and dish it out that helps borrow more money and therefore make us even more people. I fundamentally disagree. I do not think that it dependent on the banks that they pretend to dislike? is fair that people who do not work should be better off Why not put up a sign saying “Borrow more money and than people who do. Indeed, I think that is wrong. I do make us more dependent on the banks” instead of not think that it is fair that people should be trapped in calling for more state spending, as they mean the same poverty by decisions that the state makes. thing? One of the noblest things that this Government are doing is the reform of the welfare state. I agree with my Jacob Rees-Mogg: My hon. Friend makes a good hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) point. There must be fears that if the Bank of England that if people are lifted out of state dependency, they goes on printing money, the printing presses will eventually can take charge of their lives and become prosperous. wear out in an inflationary burst. They can then contribute to the overall economy. If There is hope from the Opposition Benches. We benefits are set too high and the percentage of its heard that the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar withdrawal is so high that there is no incentive to work, supported the reduction in corporation tax in Scotland people are trapped. because he thought that it would produce more revenue, more business and more prosperity for Scotland. That Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman will be aware of is the vision of fairness and of reducing inequality that yesterday’s report on working poverty by the Archbishop we should have. It is a vision in which people succeed of York. It showed that most of the people in receipt of through their own efforts rather than being trapped by 785 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 786 the state; in which people prosper through their own As I said, considerable evidence shows that the systematic, efforts, rather than being held down by the state; and in socially produced differential distribution of resources which people contribute through their own efforts to and power—I mean income, wealth, knowledge, status the growth of the rest of society and the economy, and connections—is the key determinant of health rather than being prevented from doing so by the state inequalities. Mortality and morbidity increase as people’s and being left unproductive . social position declines. My constituency contains an affluent part, in Saddleworth, although there are pockets Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman talks about the of deprivation, as in every community, and a poorer state as a malign influence, but does he accept that part, in Oldham East, and that differential is reflected markets have their flaws and do not work properly? in a 10-year difference in life expectancy, which is a Influences and biases in the markets can conspire so situation that can be replicated across the country. that the CEO gets far more, in ratio with the pay at the That social pattern of disease is universal. It is produced bottom end, than at one time he used to whereas the by social processes influenced by Government policies, people at the bottom end cannot even make a living both written and unwritten, rather than by biological wage. There are huge iniquities in the private sector and differences. There is no law of nature that decrees that it is not all “State bad”. The hon. Gentleman should children born to poor families will die at twice the rate realise that the state can be good as well and there can of children born to rich families. We should, however, be big problems in the private sector. take some comfort from the fact that those inequalities Jacob Rees-Mogg: The hon. Gentleman and I are are socially produced and, as such, neither fixed nor co-religionists, and if we are not careful we will start inevitable. That means that we have some hope of doing talking about original sin and the imperfectability of something about them. mankind. It is true, of course, that there is no perfect I am very concerned about the direction of Government man-made system, and that would be an interesting debate policy, which, although largely driven by the Tory party, for another day, but by and large the markets work is to a large extent supported by the Liberal Democrats. better than state direction, which essentially re-circulates The Health and Social Care Act 2012, for instance, money that is created in the private sector. We need a completed its passage because it was propped up by flourishing private sector if we are to help people to them. One of the key objectives of the original policy improve their standard of living, their lives and their was to reduce health inequalities, but there is absolutely livelihoods, and if we are to take them out of this awful no evidence that this privatisation Act will do anything poverty trap. There is great nobility in what the Government of the kind. The Government have tried to suggest that are doing. They do not want unfairness; they want fairness increasing competition in the NHS will improve quality for those people and families doing their bit for society, and reduce the number of inequalities, but I recently working hard and getting on, and they want to take organised an inquiry in my capacity as chair of the away the clamping down, the closing down, the almost parliamentary Labour party’s health committee, and bankrupting of the country that was being done before. eminent academics were saying exactly the opposite. For those reasons, I oppose the motion. It is One was fundamentally wrong-headed in all it seeks to do, and I “shocked to see the move to wholesale competition and Any hope the Government stick to their guns and carry on Qualified Provider as a primary driver in NHS reforms on the with economic and welfare policies that enable people basis of” to become better off through their own efforts. very few observational studies conducted by the London School of Economics and others. Another said that 4.56 pm “clearly different drivers are motivating the private healthcare sector”. Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab): I was not sure whether the hon. Member for In the US, there is both under and overtreatment, and North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) agreed or huge disparities in health care. We know that the disagreed that inequalities are bad. I certainly believe—and Government are already putting out to tender seven out I can present evidence—that inequalities between rich of 10 contracts. and poor are bad not just for the people who experience Before the Health and Social Care Bill became an them, but for society as a whole. A large swathe of Act, directors of public health and public health academics international academic evidence shows—most poignantly wrote that it would exacerbate inequality rather than in “The Spirit Level”, published a few years ago—that reduce it, but the Government pressed on, and they the gap between rich and poor is bad for everyone in continue to press on. The implications of the EU-US society. Inequalities affect life expectancy, mental health, trade negotiations are of particular concern, because social mobility, educational attainment and the extent the Government have still not committed themselves to of crime. So I start from the premise that inequalities exempting the NHS from the free trade agreement. We are bad. will challenge them vigorously on that. In my previous life in public health, I worked on The recent debacle over NHS resources allocations is socio-economic inequalities and their impact on health another example of the Government’s total lack of inequalities, which is what I want to discuss today. commitment to reducing health inequality. We saw the Again, I was not clear from what the hon. Gentleman writing on the wall back in 2012, when the former said, but he talked about the separate position of the Secretary of State for Health—the present Leader of the state and the responsibility of individuals within society. House, the right hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire I believe—again, I think there is evidence to support (Mr Lansley)—reduced the health inequalities weighting this—that the Government set the tone for the culture from 15% to 10%, which would have a direct impact on of a society, in both their explicit and implicit policies, areas where health was particularly poor. Following last and how we divvy up spending reflects those policies. year’s consultation about how NHS resources should be 787 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 788

[Debbie Abrahams] state regulation is the excessive regulation of trade unions, especially when the OECD has shown that strong trade allocated, the Government were prompted to withdraw unions can help to reduce inequalities? Does she also their previous policy and include an element that took agree that this is one area in which the UK has definitely account of deprivation in order to avoid another furore, gone too far? but there are still major problems in connection with the allocation. A recent analysis undertaken by academics Debbie Abrahams: I am a trade unionist and I fully shows that the Labour Government’s health inequalities support trade unions. weighting saved lives: three lives per 100,000 in the On the current policy trajectory, the social pattern of population. I am extremely concerned about the new health inequalities will continue. For example, the gap formula, and about its failure to take inequalities into in life expectancy is set to increase, rather than decrease. account. In England, there is now a nine-year difference for men However, health policy is not the only problem. Other and a seven year difference for women. The Government’s Members have already mentioned the Government’s indifference to inequality reflects their belief in the economic policies. Although the personal allowance dated theory that reducing inequality reduces incentives has been increased, the cut in tax credits means that and slows growth. That theory has had a number of 40% of the worst-off members of the population will be iterations, but the converse has been shown to be the about £1,500 worse off. Those policies are doing nothing case. For example, Stiglitz produced evidence last year to reduce the economic inequalities that ultimately lead to show that inequality caused financial instability, to health inequalities. undermined productivity and retarded growth. The Government are reducing access to education by The previous Labour Government did not get everything trebling tuition fees and by scrapping education right, but I am proud that we achieved our targets on maintenance allowance, which was a key funding health inequalities. Our key successes were in achieving mechanism to enable young people from deprived areas our objectives, first, to reduce health inequalities by to buy books and travel to college. They have now been 10% as measured by life expectancy at birth for men in denied that. spearhead areas, and, secondly, to narrow the gap in infant mortality by at least 10% between routine and Nia Griffith: Will my hon. Friend join me in manual socio-economic groups and the England average. congratulating the Welsh Government on protecting That was quite a feat, and it has not been acknowledged education maintenance allowance for the poorest families, by this Government. I am sure that the Minister will for the reasons that she has outlined? take an opportunity to mention it in his closing remarks. We did not get it right, but we are definitely moving in Debbie Abrahams: I will indeed. I also want to pay the right direction with the policy initiatives we have tribute to Oldham college, which has introduced its own announced: strengthening the minimum wage; increasing system to ensure that people from the poorest backgrounds support on child care; freezing energy bills; repealing can still attend college without being financially penalised. the bedroom tax; providing support on business rates; The Government are restricting access to justice through and improving the quality of jobs. their legal aid changes. Inequalities are also being created Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Reflecting on not just through job insecurity resulting from zero-hours contracts. the previous Administration, but the previous Parliament, The swathe of policies that the Government have introduced does the hon. Lady agree that one of their collective have done nothing to reduce inequalities. On the achievements was the Child Poverty Act 2010, which Government’s so-called welfare reforms, I absolutely was supported by all parties? The Welfare Reform Act detest the divide and rule narrative that has been deliberately 2012 was used to gut the key component of that Act by introduced in an attempt to vilify people receiving social removing the key element of targets and annual reports. security as the new undeserving poor. The pejorative That was not done properly, by its inclusion in the language of “shirkers” and “scroungers” has been really original Bill, but by a Government-sponsored amendment disingenuous, and the Government are distorting statistics in the Lords, which came back here and was not even to try to prop up their welfare reforms. That is absolutely voted on. shameful. Collectively, the impact of public spending cuts is Debbie Abrahams: I share the hon. Gentleman’s concern significantly greater in deprived areas. Academic studies about the increase in child poverty.The Labour Government also show the relationship between public spending made some strides in reducing that. As he will know, the and, for example, life expectancy at birth. The immediate Institute for Fiscal Studies estimates that child poverty impact of these socio-economic inequalities on health will increase by 1.1 million by 2020 because of this inequalities is already showing. Following the 2008 Government’s policies. recession, there was an increase in male suicides, with Let me finish on a quote from my right hon. Friend an additional 437 suicides registered in the UK in 2011, the Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson), roughly mirroring the increase in unemployment. It will a former Health Secretary: take time for health conditions such as cancer and heart “Inequality in health is the worst inequality of all. There is no disease to develop. There is always a time lag between more serious inequality than knowing that you’ll die sooner such conditions and their immediate precursors. We because you’re badly off”. also know that the protective, positive factors that can I hope that focuses all our minds. mitigate these negatives are being eroded. 5.12 pm Mr MacNeil: The hon. Lady is making a clear, thoughtful Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): The hon. Member speech. She has touched on regulation, and on positive for Oldham East and Saddleworth (Debbie Abrahams) factors. Does she agree that one of the malign aspects of brings to this House a wealth of experience and 789 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 790 understanding from her previous work in the area of It is an incontrovertible fact that the level of indebtedness health, and I hope that the House listened carefully, as I of this country in 1995—Government debt, household did, to her comments about the interaction between debt and corporate debt—was about two times the size differences in health and the perpetuation of inequality of the economy, and when the Labour party left office, in our country. However, I did disagree with some it was five times the size of the economy. We do not points in her critique, which I shall discuss later; most need to have a credit card to know that we have to pay importantly, there was an absence of a full understanding off all that debt, and not just part of it. of the context in which this Government are taking actions to address fairness and inequality. Debbie Abrahams: Will the hon. Gentleman explain I, like many people, get somewhat concerned and the decisions that were made in the Health and Social uneasy when I hear politicians bandying around words Care Act 2012, which had nothing to do with the debt? such as “fairness”, “equality” or “inequality”. History We recognise the economic context, although we could has taught people that when politicians profess themselves quibble about the causes and whether we reduced the in favour of fairness, they too often end up enriching level of debt. I believe that we reduced it while we were themselves and those politicians who would rally people in power. None the less, the specific policies of the Act to the banner of equality too often end up repressing had nothing to do with that debt. They were choices those same people once power has been given to them. that the Government would have driven through regardless So it was with some trepidation that I came to this of the economic context. debate, but the prospect of being able to listen to perspectives on those issues from Members of this Richard Fuller: The hon. Lady is repeating the point Parliament from different parts of the UK attracted me, that she made in her speech. I am sure that the Minister and I have not been disappointed, either by the opening will want to address it now or later. Earlier on, she speech or by those of other hon. Members. missed this major contextual factor, which is somehow Judgments about what is fair or not fair, or about the the Government must be able to manage the economy balance between equality and inequality, are best left to while dealing with a substantial overhang of debt, and individuals and families. People are perfectly capable of individual families are doing that as well. That is a root making those decisions based on what they have learned and crucial part of how we can achieve a more equal from their parents and grandparents, on what they have society. We cannot achieve an equal society if we permit been taught in school or, perhaps, on the lessons they Government to pass on massive debts to the future have learned in their church, synagogue, mosque or generations without any liability themselves. temple. Politicians fall rather low down the list of people who can be persuasive on those topics. Nevertheless, we David T. C. Davies: My hon. Friend is making an shall battle forth. excellent speech. Does he find it as extraordinary as I do that that debt was being racked up from 2001 onwards Mr MacNeil: I do not disagree in any way, shape or at an average rate of about £30 billion a year, long form that people can make assessments about what is before the financial crisis struck? iniquitous or unfair, but the hon. Gentleman needs to go further down the road, because when people see Richard Fuller: I appreciate my hon. Friend’s intervention. inequity and unfairness they do not have the power to He is drawing our attention to the Government part of do anything about it. That is when this place and the debt, but I have to tell him that the stewardship of national Parliaments around the world have to regulate, the economy by the Government was worse even before reform things and so on to make sure we have the then. We, as people who can vote in Governments and situation we had after world war two: a better settlement as citizens, have to take that responsibility ourselves, for the greatest breadth of citizenry. too. We are responsible for what this generation does, whether it is our Government, our corporations or any Richard Fuller: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman other aspect of society, but we pass on those consequences for that helpful intervention. Let us assess the ability of to our children and grandchildren and they will inherit Government today to fulfil that positive role. One of either a more equal and more prosperous society or a the most important aspects of fairness is the future that less equal and less prosperous society because of the we bequeath to our children and grandchildren. It is a decisions that we make as individuals and the way in natural aspect of human behaviour to want to give the which we hold our Government to account. best start in life to our children and grandchildren. One of the worst aspects of the context in which we are Sheila Gilmore rose— operating today, as a Government and as a Parliament, is that under the previous Government, we built up the Richard Fuller: With respect, others wish to speak, so most significant amount of debt to pass on to our I will move on now to specific parts of the motion. children and grandchildren. One of the most important Let me address the issue of austerity measures and aspects of what the Opposition call the cost of living why they are in place. First, there is the fact that we have crisis—my constituents think of it as trying to meet the accumulated too much debt. Another issue is the ripple family budget—is the debt that was left by the previous effects of that debt crisis. As the Government deal with Government for this Government to deal with. the overriding debt, individual families, especially those The Opposition like to talk about the level of in vulnerable circumstances, are pushed to the edge and Government debt at that time, but a Chancellor of the need to go to payday lenders and other high interest Exchequer is custodian not just of part of the economy rate lenders to deal with the consequences of that but of the entire economy, and, before he makes a macro-financial situation. The individual circumstances decision, he has to look at the strength of the economy. of individual households have to be taken into account. 791 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 792

[Richard Fuller] Richard Fuller: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. This Government have sought to reverse the level of tax The other issue—again, it is the legacy of what that people on low incomes pay, unlike the previous occurred in preceding years—is the way in which house Government. In addition, with the employment allowance, prices have become detached from incomes. Shelter is the Government have a tool to encourage employers to running a campaign on the issue, and although it is an increase pay for people on low incomes, and I hope that interesting point to raise, I think that it is about 10 years the Chancellor will do something about that. too late. In the Living Wage Commission report, to which We talk a lot about improving skills, which is important, many hon. Members have referred, there is an interesting but that does not work for everyone. Not everyone will chart—figure 1.21—which looks at the ratio of house want to take on additional skills. One aspect of pay that prices to earnings for the years 1952, 1975, 1997 and 2012. during my career in business changed dramatically was For the entire period from 1952 to 1997, the ratio of the recognition of tenure. It used to be the case that by house prices to income fell. In 1952, it was five times the doing the same job for two, three, five or 10 years, not average income, but by 1997, it was 4.1 times. In the period improving one’s skills but just getting better at what one from 1997 to 2012, it rose from 4.1 times to 6.7 times; did, an increase in pay could be anticipated. We have 100% of that increase took place in the period to 2007. lost sight of that too much over the last 10 or 15 years. If we look at the cost of living and the cost of housing—part We have said it is just one rate for the job, with no of enabling people to own their own home, get on the regard to tenure. I ask the Government to look at tenure property ladder and pay their rent—we see that the issue as part of a more widespread response to the persistence of inequality will take time to resolve, because it took us of low pay in this country. a long time to get into that mess in the first place. In addition to the promotion of a living wage by The motion refers to women and relative pay. I want councils, there is an important point about the to draw to the attention of the House, not by way of commissioning that councils do. There have been reports answer but by way of contribution to the argument, the in the media recently about the commissioning of various House of Commons economic indicators report for types of service by local authorities that impact on the February 2014. It looks at the gender pay gap and it pay that can be earned by individuals, which is also an makes the broad point that the overall pay gap between important point for the Government to consider. men and women has decreased steadily from 1997, but in considering whether the gap will be perpetuated in I will not get into the debate about the rise of food the future, it examines the gender pay gap by age range. banks under the last Government compared with now. For women and men between 18 and 39, the pay gap Food banks provide a good service and I encourage oscillates between 1.4% and 0.3%. For women over 40, people to support them as much as possible. I went to it oscillates between 12% and 18%, which raises a question the food bank in Bedford and I pay tribute to the All for policy makers such as the Minister: is that issue to Nations Church, to the Salvation Army and to the do with career breaks and will it persist over time, or is other Churches that run the food bank. it the result of a fairly good news story, with younger Gordon Banks: May I entice the hon. Gentleman to women and younger men on average having access to go into the matter of food banks a little? Has he seen the same sort of jobs and pay, so that in about 20 years’ the latest newsletter from the Trussell Trust, which time the differential will go down? I do not put that somewhat contradicts the Minister’s position earlier? It forward as an answer, because I do not know the answer, says that 42% of all food bank users cite benefit-related but as a contribution to the debate and to broaden problems as the reason why they use food banks. understanding. There have been a number of contributions about the Richard Fuller: I have not seen that report, but I have working poor, poverty and the living wage. We have seen the data on those using the food bank in Bedford. discussed raising wages from the minimum wage level to For a large proportion of people the causes are related living wage levels, but too frequently that would result to benefit changes. I do not have the statistics, but in a small pay increase for the individuals concerned. It within that group some people have been sanctioned for is a transaction between the employer and the Government not complying with the benefit rules. Would the hon. in terms of the interaction of benefits and compensation. Gentleman support policies that sanction people for To contradict my hon. Friend the Member for North not conforming with the benefit rules, or does he believe East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg), who discussed the that they should not be sanctioned? free market in wages—it is a small difference—I would argue that if in the low-pay sector Government are Sheila Gilmore: My constituents are not being sanctioned topping up wages to the tune of £10,000 on a £13,000 for not looking for a job, but for one-off incidents. One wage, which is the case for a married person with two constituent rearranged an interview with the Work children earning the minimum wage, the free market is programme provider because of difficulties with her far from working. There could be a strong argument, child’s school start times and was told that that was not only from the point of view of public finances but okay, but she was subsequently sanctioned. People are in order to have a freer market, for urging the Government being sanctioned for minor infringements, almost on a to increase the pressure on companies by removing that whim. subsidy, which is supporting labour. However, I should be interested to hear more from my hon. Friend. Richard Fuller: I do not want the hon. Lady to Jacob Rees-Mogg: Is my hon. Friend aware that conflate two things. If the 42% figure reflects the situation someone working 40 hours a week in receipt of the in Bedford, it is to do with the broader issues of benefits, minimum wage would pay over £2,200 a year in tax, which includes sanctions, changes to benefits and the which must be part of the problem? I include in that specific examples that the hon. Lady mentioned, where employers’ national insurance. the reason is fairly spurious or there is just a plain error. 793 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 794

I do not believe such cases make up the 42% proportion, by using some of the information that I have presented but they are part of it. But I am a Tory, so I understand today, other contributions may be better placed to that large bureaucracies forget the individual and people consider the issue. are caught by that. In my constituency—as I am sure the hon. Lady is in her constituency—I am creating a 5.32 pm form with the local food bank provider so that when Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): Fairness and equality circumstances such as she describes occur, my office can are fundamental to Labour’s vision for society. Our be informed straight away. It is important that we as roots are in the philosophy and movements that worked Members of Parliament use our power, when such for a fairer society, such as the democratically controlled spurious changes to benefits are made, to shorten the non-conformist chapels, friendly societies and trade time that they take to resolve. For some of my constituents unions. We believe in a community in which power, that can take six, seven, eight weeks or more, which is wealth and opportunity are in the hands of the many, not correct if a sanction has been inappropriately applied. not the few. We want to see a fair day’s pay for a fair Gordon Banks: I endorse what my hon. Friend the day’s work. However, it is not just the less well off who Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) said. I benefit from a more equal society. As has been well commend the hon. Gentleman on his work in moving documented, more equal societies deliver better outcomes things on for his constituents in respect of food banks. I not only for the less well off, but across the whole community do the same, as I am sure do many other right hon. and —not only are the least well off less disadvantaged, but hon. Members, but I have had constituents who have people feel more secure, safer and less threatened, and been sanctioned because they have been ill and then, society is more cohesive. because they are sanctioned, they have no money to go Tackling inequality is about challenging those structures to appointments, and are sanctioned again. That system that perpetuate inequality and about creating the necessary is totally out of control. structures to challenge and mitigate that inequality. It is about challenging and ending exploitation in its many Richard Fuller: I will not dwell on the matter. I have guises. It is about responsible trade unions negotiating asked the hon. Gentleman whether he supports the with managers to ensure a fair share of rewards for process of sanctions. I would be interested to hear him working people and, as we saw in 2008, safeguarding explain in his speech what type of sanctions he supports jobs and retaining skilled workers, even if that meant and how he would implement them, if he had to take their accepting temporary reductions in pay or hours. that responsibility. Tackling inequality is about siding with ordinary people The final part of the motion asks the Government to against the powerful, against whom they feel they have halt their spending cuts. If they halt that process, they no redress. It is about empowering them and giving have to look at increasing taxation. I am sure many hon. them the means to achieve that redress. It is about Members know that the ways in which we raise tax are setting priorities to try to redress inequalities and developing moving more and more towards fewer people paying a the tools and structures to continue to tackle inequality. larger proportion of tax, with 1% of the population Things do not stand still. We need to continue to paying 30% of income tax and 29,000 people paying 14% tackle inequality. For example, we have said that we will of income tax. On the one hand, this may be seen as an impose a freeze on energy prices, but that is not enough. aspect of inequality. On the other, it may be seen as a It is the immediate first step. We will then break up the fairly dangerous way in which a Government can raise energy market to make it work better for the consumer. money, in which case the shadow Chancellor’s proposal In other words, we need an ongoing solution. We will to increase tax rates again is probably inappropriate. also introduce a tougher regulator to ensure that the In some of the contributions from even those on the market works for people. It will have the power to tackle Government Benches, we convey the impression that the off-grid issues that many hon. Members have mentioned the Labour Government were benign on tax. I draw the today. With this Government there is absolutely no attention of the House and the Minister to what was redress for the ordinary person. They are not standing going on between 2000 and 2010. It is in a House of up to the energy companies, which are making massive Commons Library note called “Income tax: the additional profits, but instead are just moving the green taxes on to 50p rate”, which looks at the top rate of tax, including general taxation. social security contributions, between 2000 and 2010. It The Government have imposed massive cuts to legal shows that in France that rate went down 10.6 percentage aid and introduced disproportionate charges for points, in Germany it went down by 5.8 percentage employment tribunals. Someone who is wrongly dismissed points, but in the United Kingdom between 2000 and from a low-paid job will have to pay £500 up front to go 2010 that rate went up by 11 percentage points. So it is to an employment tribunal, but because they were on not fair to use the word that has been common in this low pay they might not have any savings. The Government debate or to maintain the perspective that somehow, are trying to tear up employment legislation and make under the Labour Government, the rich were getting off people feel even more insecure than they do now. with low tax rates. The Labour Government were taxing The Government are using the Transparency of people at a high rate. They started the process of a higher Lobbying, Non-party Campaigning and Trade Union proportion of taxes being raised from fewer people, Administration Act 2014 to attack trade unions that are which results in a very difficult situation for people overall. standing up for workers’ rights. Despicably, they have We have had an interesting debate and I look forward been using the same Act to attack charities standing up to hearing more contributions from hon. Members on for, and highlighting the needs of, vulnerable people. fairness and equality. I have not yet been persuaded that They are charging people an up-front fee to go to the politicians are best placed to determine that. I believe Child Support Agency to get an estranged parent to pay that individuals make their own judgments. I hope that their fair share of child maintenance. 795 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 796

[Nia Griffith] and complete indifference from the Welsh nationalists, who absented themselves from the vote. During our Everywhere we look, the Government are making it time in office, we raised the national minimum wage to harder for ordinary people to get what they are entitled above the rate of inflation, but what has happened to: harder to get a fair wage for a fair day’s work; harder under this Government? As I warned when speaking for to get energy supplies at a fair price; harder to make the Opposition in the debate on this Government’s first ends meet if they fall sick, lose their job or cannot find statutory instrument on the subject, the national minimum more hours to work; and harder to stay in their house, wage has been weakened by galloping inflation. I am which might have been specially adapted, if they are hit glad that the Chancellor is now talking about the need by the bedroom tax—a cruel and ill-thought-out tax to raise it to £7, but the question is when, because as the that Labour would reverse. national minimum wage moves forward, so does inflation. We all understand that the banking crisis has led to Any rise needs to be tied to a particular time and we severe financial restraint, but there are still different need to know exactly what is planned. options and priorities that Governments can adopt. We have clearly stated that we want to strengthen the They can choose to give tax cuts to millionaires, as this national minimum wage and pursue firms that are Government have done, or they could ask the better-off trying to find ways of avoiding it by, for example, to bear a greater share of the burden. Under this exceeding the limit for deductions for accommodation. Government, however, we have seen the very poor get We introduced the Gangmasters (Licensing) Act 2004 even poorer. to tackle abusive exploitation of workers, and we want Successive Governments have uprated benefits in line to extend such provisions to the construction and care with inflation, mostly using the retail prices index until sectors, yet many Government Members want to get rid 2011. Since then we have seen the breaking of the link of it, just as they got rid of the Agricultural Wages between inflation and the rates at which benefits rise. Board. Do not forget that 68% of those affected by the We want to incentivise wider adoption of the living Government’s benefits changes are in work. Universal wage, so we will bring in tax breaks for the first year to credit will be subject to annual review, but not to encourage employers to introduce it. We could make mandatory uprating. There is a huge danger that it will £3 billion-worth of savings simply by helping people to fall behind inflation. earn more and pay more tax, and then we would not However, well before we get to universal credit, with need to pay out so much in tax credits. As the shadow its myriad problems, which are not helped by the sheer Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, my hon. incompetence with which it is being introduced, the Friend the Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves), Government should look at the impact of the Welfare has said, and has been quoted today as saying, we will Benefits Up-rating Act 2013. Most working-age benefits get the benefits bill down. We will do that by putting have been limited to rises of 1% a year, yet the cost of people back to work, by ensuring that the national basic items, such as food and energy, are rising by minimum wage keeps up with inflation, and by bringing significantly more. Even Government estimates suggest in measures to encourage employers to introduce the that there might be 200,000 more children living in living wage. In those ways, we can save on tax credits, poverty, and the Child Poverty Action Group estimates make sure that work pays, and bring the benefits bill that there could be 1 million more children living in down without hitting the poorest hardest. poverty by 2020. Let us look at some of the benefits that have been Stephen Crabb: The hon. Lady talks about Labour’s affected. The first is tax credits, which have a huge promise to bring the welfare bill down. I remember that impact. We have called the cut to tax credits a strivers’ on the eve of the 1997 general election, the Labour tax, because it affects the very people who are desperately leader, Tony Blair, promised to do exactly the same trying to make ends meet, often working two or three thing. What went wrong over the 13 years that Labour jobs and patching together a few hours here and a few wasinpower? hours there. Then they are told that they have to find more hours, but they are simply not available—otherwise, they would be working them. Those are some of the Nia Griffith: We are saying now that we want to tackle issues that I think the Government need to address. In the reasons why people are on such poverty wages. If we particular, they need to look at how they are hitting try to reduce the price of fuel, that helps people with the those who are in work and doing their best to try to amount of money they have in their pocket. If we look make ends meet. at the amount that they earn, that helps them to get the We all know the proverb, “Give a person a fish and right amount of money in their pocket without it having you feed them for a day; give them a fishing rod and to be topped up so much by the tax system. There are they can feed themselves for life.” In the same way, we ways forward and we have to tackle these issues. It need measures that can make an immediate difference would be very welcome if this Government were prepared to inequality. For example, Labour introduced pension to look a bit more at ways of doing so. credit as a fast and targeted means of taking the very We will also tackle zero-hours contracts. In September, poorest pensioners out of poverty. Many of them were my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition women who had had little opportunity to earn much announced Labour’s plans to tackle zero-hours contracts money outside the home. where they exploit people. This would be achieved by We also need mechanisms and structures that can banning employers from insisting that zero-hours workers continue to make a difference. In 1998 Labour introduced be available even when there is no guarantee of any the national minimum wage despite fierce opposition work, by stopping zero-hours contracts that require from the Conservatives—I welcome their late conversion— workers to work exclusively for one business, and by 797 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 798 ending the misuse of zero-hours contracts where employees refused to implement that would enable pensioners and are, in practice, working regular hours over a sustained investors to see how pension fund managers vote on period. remuneration packages, which would bring transparency to what is happening at the very top of the pay scales. Jonathan Edwards: As the hon. Lady is aware, As prices continue to rise faster than wages, people Carmarthenshire county council—run, of course, by are unable to cope with the expenses they face at the end the Labour party—makes extensive use of zero-hours of the month, which is making them ever more prey to contracts across its portfolio of employment. Will she exploitation by payday loan companies charging exorbitant join me in strongly condemning its leadership for the interest rates and costs. That is why we have called for manner in which it uses zero-hours contracts to exploit the Financial Conduct Authority to use its powers to its workers? implement, as soon as possible, a total cost cap on the amount that payday lenders can charge, in order to Nia Griffith: As the hon. Gentleman points out, there protect borrowers and ensure that Britain has a consumer is still a long way to go. There are still many things that credit market that works for everyone. Under pressure we all need to put right. Carmarthenshire county council from Labour and other campaigners, such as Sharkstoppers has decided that over the next two years the 1% pay and Debtbusters, the Government have now agreed to increase should be weighted towards those on the lowest grant the newly created FCA the power to cap the total pay to try to bring them up to the living wage, thus cost of credit through the Financial Services Act 2012 penalising the people at the top, because that is a way of and to compel it to use that power through the Financial bringing in a measure of equality. Services (Banking Reform) Act 2013. Yes, of course there is still a lot to do. We began with As well as capping interest rates, we need to find the Gangmasters (Licensing) Act and the agency workers alternative sources of loans to help people in difficult directive, but there is still a lot more to be done on the circumstances and to put further pressure on the payday whole issue of zero-hours contracts, including using loan companies and squeeze them out of the market. procurement, in the same way as the Welsh Government, With some lenders making profits of as much as £1 million to tackle blacklisting. When someone is blacklisted—they a week, my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition can no longer get employment in particular industries has called for a levy on such profits in order to raise because their name has been passed round from employer capital for alternative and affordable sources of credit to employer—it can be a terrible blight for a family. As such as the credit unions. That would give an additional in Wales, through the power of procurement we will say £13 million to credit unions to offer more financial that we do not want public bodies to use contractors support to people who are in need of loans. that are blacklisting people. That will be a powerful provision to raise the living standards of all those being Guto Bebb: Like the hon. Lady, I am a great supporter paid from the public purse, whether by councils directly of the credit union movement, so I was surprised to be or by contractors. informed by my local credit union last Friday that the People are able to make choices and there are mitigating funding from the Welsh Labour Government to the factors and different ways of tackling poverty. In Wales, credit union movement in Wales will be reduced for example, by 2015 the Welsh Government will have dramatically next year. doubled the number of children and families benefiting from Flying Start, whereas in England 500 Sure Start Nia Griffith: I am not aware of that, so I will not centres have closed. The Jobs Growth Wales programme comment on it, but we certainly need to look at alternative is ahead of target in enabling 4,000 young people a year forms of credit in order to stop people having to go to to take on a job, mostly in the private sector. It has a payday loan sharks. Given the explosion in the volume very high success rate, with some 80% being offered of payday loan company adverts in the past few years, permanent jobs at the end of their stay. The Welsh we have also pledged to take action to exclude them Government have also increased the funding of the from children’s programming in the same way as alcohol pupil deprivation grant, giving it a £35 million boost to and gambling advertisements are excluded. help those from the least well-off homes to achieve their potential. We very much support setting up a commission of inquiry to investigate the impact of the Government’s Equality is also about making those with the broadest welfare reforms on the incidence of poverty. I, together shoulders take the biggest load. That is why we introduced with many Labour colleagues, spoke in favour of such a the 50p tax rate, and we would reintroduce it for those commission in the debate on 13 January, and I am earning more than £150,000 per annum. It has now wondering what the Government will do about that. I emerged, from figures produced by Her Majesty’s Revenue urge them to set up such an inquiry as soon as possible. and Customs, that almost £10 billion more was raised by the 50p tax rate during the three years it was in place than was originally estimated by the Government in Several hon. Members rose— 2012. The shadow Chancellor, my right hon. Friend the Member for Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls), has Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. confirmed our support for a mansion tax. We have used Before I call the next speaker, it may help the House to the tool of a bankers’ bonus tax in the past and would know that we have plenty of time left for this debate. I do so again in order to provide thousands of job consider it important, however, that the parties that opportunities for young people. We would roll out a tabled the motion should have adequate time to complete house-building programme of 200,000 houses a year to a proper winding-up speech. I therefore propose that help bring down the price of housing. Labour’s Companies Back-Bench speeches should finish at about 6.30 pm. If Act 2006 includes provisions the Government have every hon. Member who is still to speak speaks for 799 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 800

[Madam Deputy Speaker] Ms Ritchie: Irrespective of our political differences and affiliation, does the hon. Gentleman agree that it approximately 10 minutes, that will give all their colleagues was Ireland as a united country that played in that and fellow Members an equal opportunity to make rugby team? their points. Jim Shannon: I know that, of course, but it would not have been a team without the Ulstermen, and that— 5.50 pm Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I certainly understand It may help the hon. Gentleman to know that if he the motion’s sentiments. When I looked through it, mentions the Calcutta cup on Saturday, he will be in big several things came to my attention—income inequality, trouble. the impact on low and middle income families, the number of workers on the minimum wage and zero-hours contracts, people in working poverty, the sharp rise in Jim Shannon: Who am I to get on the wrong side of the number of people using food banks, and welfare you, Madam Deputy Speaker? Of course I will not cuts. I very much understand and would want to speak mention it. about all those points in the motion. We are coming out of a recession, and times are tough for many people throughout the whole of the At the same time, I do not totally agree with my United Kingdom, but may I point to the fact that there colleagues in Plaid Cymru and the Scottish National have certainly been some successes? I am thinking of party about their wish to break up the Union. As a the recent contracts and job creation secured in Northern committed Unionist who sees the importance of the Ireland, thanks in no small part to the tremendous United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, work done by the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and I want the four regions of England, Wales, Scotland Investment. Yesterday, for example, she secured a contract and Northern Ireland to be together as one nation—one in Singapore to supply defibrillators to the Singapore nationhood together—under the Union flag. I cannot army, and she has secured a new contract through her agree with them about that, but I honestly have real “Going Dutch” campaign. Of course, everyone here affection, as they know, for each and every one of them. knows that Northern Ireland has a strong relationship I want to see them in this Chamber after the referendum with Holland—something to do with the 16th and 17th in Scotland and the one, whenever it is—perhaps a centuries—but we have relationships across the whole decade or two away—in Wales. of the United Kingdom and into Europe, where Northern Ireland can have influence and be better for it. Mr MacNeil: I want to make sure that the hon. Gentleman fully understands that the hand of friendship David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): I agree with my is there: whenever he wants to visit Scotland after hon. Friend that we are seeing some economic recovery independence, I will personally make sure that he is and that is very important, but does he agree that we made very welcome. still have inequality and unfairness affecting the younger generation, who want to buy homes but cannot and will not be able to do so for the foreseeable future? Jim Shannon: I knew that there would always be a welcome for me in the hillsides. It is a real pleasure to Jim Shannon: I thank my hon. Friend for making know that the hon. Gentleman would do that. that point—not one of us here would disagree. Just this Any hon. Member who works in their constituency morning, we discussed VAT and tourism in Westminster will have come across the problems that people face, but Hall, in a debate led by the hon. Member for South I know that a lot is being done to combat those problems Down (Ms Ritchie). We talked about opportunities for in many Departments, as should be noted. Perhaps full jobs in tourism, and most of those who benefit will be credit has not been given to the Government of the day young people, so we would like to see that happen. for the economic turnaround that we have had. It is My hon. Friend is right: I cannot, in all fairness, only fair to say that, and I want to put it on the record. I paint a completely rosy picture. People are struggling, know that much blame passes from side to side in this and we in this place are tasked with finding ways to help Chamber about why we are where we are. My friends on them and to help those who are trying to help others. As the Government Benches point to the legacy left by the time has passed in this economic climate, we are seeing previous Government that is still being felt, and my people who once had more than enough struggle to friends on the Opposition Benches mention the austerity make ends meet. I can think of developers who, five cuts and decisions that have been taken, but we in the years ago, were donating hundreds, sometimes thousands, middle are simply saying, “Let’s forget the blame, and of pounds to charity, but who are now seeking help focus on how we can make things better for our constituents with their benefits as a result not of losing the desire to and our country.” work, but of losing the work to do. That is a fact facing I am conscious that the debate is about fairness and many people in my area. inequality, which of course relate to many spheres of With more and more people struggling, one of the life. It was only fair, because the best team won, when local churches took matters into its own hands and set Ireland beat Scotland 28-6. As for inequality, we saw an up the first Trussell Trust food bank in Northern Ireland. example of it when Ireland, the better team, beat Wales Like the Minister, I see the benefits of the food bank in 26-3, an indication of skill and experience. Fairness and bringing people together, with people energised to help inequality therefore go into many things, and that is just others in a clear, practical and physical demonstration one of them. of love for others. Thriving Life church in Newtownards 801 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 802 realised that people simply needed help and was the 6pm first to do this, but there are now 12 food banks across the Province, all manned by people who volunteer to Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): It is a make a difference, all stocked by a community who pleasure to speak in this debate. understand that by donating a few groceries, they can I agree with some of the analysis that the hon. help others who are struggling. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) presented in his opening speech. He was right Since opening, the food bank in Newtownards has to talk about the industrial policy successes that have fed some 3,000 people and the number rises every day. been seen in Germany over the past few decades. Such Forty tonnes of food were donated by the local community. successes are greatly needed in this country. I want to The food bank is staffed by a group of volunteers who strike just one discordant note by reminding him of the collect, sift and sort through donations and make up record of the previous Government in reducing child the packs—they even have foodstuffs specifically for poverty in the UK by 1.1 million and in cutting pensioner diabetic people donated by constituents. They keep a poverty by two thirds. record of why people are referred to the food bank and I turn to the speech of the hon. Member for Na they worked out four reasons, of which the first is low h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil). At one point, I thought income. At the time the work was done, last summer, that he might set a record in Parliament by exceeding there were 604 referrals because of low income, almost the four hours and 45 minutes that Gladstone took to 500 because of debt, just over 410 because of benefits deliver his Budget in 1853. However, the hon. Gentleman changes and almost 400 because of benefit delays, so curtailed his remarks to below an hour. He had some 65% to 70% of people were referred because of low interesting things to say. Again, I will pick out the income or debt and 30% to 35% because of benefit points of agreement. He was right to point to the work issues. of the many esteemed economists who have said that There are 86 regular donors to the food bank, including the share of growth that goes to people in the lower half churches, businesses, schools and community organisations. of the income scale has been insufficient over the past Mash Direct and Willowbrook Foods—two major 30 years. companies in my constituency—give regularly, and such It was revealing that there was a philosophical difference donations are crucial to the Newtownards food bank. between the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar and The sense of community has been expanded to supermarket the hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir) in their approach stores such as Tesco and Asda, whose partnerships are to markets. The hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar crucial: not only do they allow store collections, but one pointed out that markets should serve the public interest, store recently donated an additional 30% of food to but the hon. Member for Angus did not seem to think what had been collected in a two-day drive. I have been that the reforms to the energy market that Labour pleased to be present and helping on the two occasions Members want to see, which would give people a welcome they did that. The big stores recognise the problem and freeze in energy prices to tackle the cost of living crisis try to help. that is hurting households across Scotland, were required. It was interesting to see that philosophical dissonance Not only does our food bank provide food in a crisis among the Scottish nationalist parliamentarians, who but, through the organisation Christians Against Poverty are usually a steely monolith. operating from the church, it also provides professional The hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob assistance with budgeting and debt issues and teaches Rees-Mogg), who is sadly no longer in his place, spoke people how to live on their income. Trained workers go about what has caused the reduction in the wage share. through people’s debts to find a manageable payment If he were in his place, I would direct him to the scheme and do all the set-up work. That work is very excellent report issued by the Resolution Foundation important and must happen. Not only can people get today, which demonstrates that 72% of the falling wage food to feed their children, but they can get help to lift share over the past two decades has been down to them out of the dark hole of despair that many are in. growing wage inequality. The hon. Gentleman and his This does not absolve the Government of doing all hon. Friends should reflect on that. they can to ensure that no family in the UK goes to bed There was a fine speech by my hon. Friend the hungry. We have a role to play through ensuring that Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth (Debbie our welfare system runs smoothly, so that delays in Abrahams), who reflected many of the points that were benefits do not mean delays in provision. The Government made in the Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission have a massive role to play. They must begin by thanking report that was published last year. Prolonged periods the individuals and groups that work tirelessly to make of income inequality lead to massive and dramatic a difference to people’s lives and to communities, and by health and educational inequalities. I see that in my asking how they can assist them. constituency and across many parts of the United Kingdom. In conclusion, tough decisions have been made. I have agreed with some and disagreed with many others. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster I oppose the implementation of the bedroom tax when North (Edward Miliband) set out in his Hugo Young no housing is available for people to move into. We have lecture last night, the economic model that has persisted to work in this House to make savings. At the same over the past 30 years is not fit to generate the sustainable time, we must work hard to ensure that we change lives growth shared properly across the whole of society that for the better. Further, we must ensure that when the will be needed in the next 30 years. Oxfam showed only game of blame is finished, we are taking action to make last week that the 85 richest people in the world have the those changes. same wealth as the 3.5 billion people who make up the poorest half of the world’s population. We need growth 803 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 804

[Mr William Bain] We have also seen the hollowing out of our jobs market, and a lack of jobs in the construction and that serves the interests of people across the United manufacturing sectors. We have seen a welcome increase Kingdom and the world. It is also important to put on in jobs in business and the financial services, but nothing record that there is absolutely no tension between tackling has replaced the jobs lost in construction in 2008 and poverty and inequality in these islands, and our 2009. It is incumbent on Government at every single tier responsibilities to the poorest and most disadvantaged to ensure that this hole in our labour market is repaired. in other parts of the world. The banking sector also needs to be reformed, as the The fundamental point of this debate is that when we hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr pointed look at the condition of our country, we see that people out. We have not seen the degree of lending to small are working harder. The numbers of hours worked are businesses in this country that we have seen in Germany, higher than they were before the crisis hit in 2008, but and that speaks to a structural flaw in our banking people have a lot less to show for it. We know from the system. There are insufficient banks to provide the Institute for Fiscal Studies that, taking into account tax necessary competition. We do not have a proper and and benefit changes, on average people are £891 a year fully fledged investment bank to support firms that worse off under this Government. In 2015 this will be want to invest in infrastructure. The UK Green Investment the first Government in decades who have to go back to Bank does not have the borrowing powers it needs to the electorate, unable to answer the question about drive investment in the renewables sector. whether, during their time in office, they made people Only a Labour Government, in the Scottish Parliament better off than they were before. and in this Parliament, can get to grips with the root The reason our economy is not working for ordinary causes of this unbalanced recovery: the lack of a sectorally people and the recovery—welcome though it is—is not and regionally balanced industrial policy, weak business yet sustained and secured, and is different from those of investment, skill shortages, poor exports, a worsening the ‘80s and ‘90s, is that we have not seen the promised productivity crisis and the lowest number of new starts rise in business investment. Productivity has fallen in in housing since the 1920s. We need to earn and make seven of the past nine quarters under this Government, our way to a real recovery in Britain with a long-term and in 2012 this country saw the biggest fall in productivity plan to raise living standards for all. in the EU, and the second biggest in the G20. We can begin to detect the reasons for that slump in productivity because people’s wages—even people in part-time 6.11 pm employment—have steadily fallen in the past four years. Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): In some ways That failure to have a wage, investment, and trade and this is a triangular debate, because there so many different export-led recovery poses severe questions about the views across the House. durability of the economic model that the Government are following. We were treated to what I can only call a reprise of the 1930s from the hon. Member for North East Somerset Under that flawed model, more than 13 million people (Jacob Rees-Mogg), who is no longer in his seat. Many are in poverty on these islands—more than half in of his arguments were made in this place in the 1930s on working households—and two in every three children issues such as unemployment benefit. Many people said are growing up in poverty in a household where at least then that unemployment benefit, such as it was, was one adult is in work. Given that, it is no surprise that holding people back from working because it made three out of four people are severely concerned about them lazy and they did not try very hard to get jobs, and what rising inequality means for every person across it was a very bad thing. Indeed, we could probably go our country. back even beyond the 1930s. I suspect that the hon. Today, Shelter published data that demonstrate the Gentleman’s great, great, great, great ancestor in the impact that the lack of housing supply—a responsibility early 19th century was probably saying something similar in my constituency of both this Government and the about the poor law—that provisions had to be made Scottish Government—is having on inequality. House really tough and that people should not get out-relief prices are now 87 times what they were half a century but in-workhouse relief, because it was making them ago, while wages have lagged way behind. Rising house lazy and unwilling to work for low wages. This argument prices in the past year have not been matched by the is constantly reproduced. Nobody—I think nobody—would adequate supply of housing from either Government say now that high unemployment went on for so long in that is necessary to deal with the cost of living crisis. the 1930s because unemployment benefit was too generous. The Joseph Rowntree Foundation pointed out last Blaming the problem of unemployment on the unemployed week that in Scotland poverty among workless households is no new thing, but it is, frankly, wrong, and it is too has reached 54%. In my constituency, and in many like simple an explanation. it in west and central Scotland and parts of eastern At the other extreme, we have the “wouldn’t it be nice Scotland, between 600 and 700 people who are under 25 if we could do everything” brigade, which is how much or who have not worked for two years or longer would of the yes to independence campaign is being waged in benefit from the right to work. They want to be in work Scotland. This is the idea that we can do it all and can but cannot find it, and it is incumbent on both Governments have everything: a lower retirement age, better social to ease those people’s personal cost of living crisis by security benefits and lower taxes all at one and the same implementing policies that will give them a proper jobs time, and that this is the solution to all our problems. guarantee. That is critical in securing greater equality Back in the real world—which, I have to say, will be the for the constituents I represent, who are on an average world facing a Scottish Government whether under wage of £342 a week—5% less in real terms compared independence or not—there are real challenges and we with 2012. have to consider how we can deal with them properly. 805 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 806

Other myths have been perpetrated. The hon. Member in particular, was the introduction of pension credit, for Bedford (Richard Fuller) wanted us to feel that he which took every single pensioner out of absolute poverty? and many of his colleagues would like to reduce inequality, Not one was left in absolute poverty at the end of that too, and that the way to do it is to get the economy back Labour Government. on its feet; there would be no reason why inequality would not then be reduced. The problem—he is no Sheila Gilmore: I entirely agree. That was a hugely longer in his place to intervene to tell me I am wrong—is important step forward, but we also addressed the issue that I suspect he thinks that the Conservative Government of getting people back to work. One myth is that we are in the years between 1979 and 1997 were right in the not at all interested in getting people back to work, but way they ran the economy. The trouble is that during the tax credit system did a lot to help people to get into those years inequality rose at a very fast rate. In these work, particularly single parents—350,000 of them were debates, Members frequently say that it continued to helped into work as a result of that policy—and that is rise under the Labour Government, but it rose far less important. and the big rises in inequality came during the years of I accept that employment for those who are fit and Conservative government. During those years—when, able to work is an important prerequisite of increasing in the view of Members such as the hon. Member for their income—remaining on benefits is not the way to Bedford, the economy was getting back on the right increase one’s income and has not been under any path—inequality rose substantially, so if some of us are Government—but that is not always sufficient as a less than convinced that this Government want genuinely marker that people can become better off. It is a necessary to deal with inequality, we have historical precedents on beginning, but it has not been sufficient and we must which to base that opinion. consider the hours of work that people are doing and the low wages that many receive. If we do not tackle Stephen Crabb: We have had some discussion about that, people in work will still be very poor, as they are income inequality. Let me put it on the record once now. That is why the child poverty measures show that again that income inequality reached record levels during 60% of those in child poverty have members of their the previous Parliament and under the previous Labour families in work. Government. Income inequality is falling under this Government. We should look at what is happening in places such as Scotland, instead of assuming that these problems have been magically addressed, because there are still Sheila Gilmore: The big increase in income inequality problems, some of which, in relation to social care, I was clearly between 1979 and 1997. Any graph will alluded to earlier. I am not saying that free social care make that quite clear. should not be looked at—it was introduced not by the There is a danger in perpetuating the myth mentioned current Scottish Government, but by the previous by the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr Administration—but it does present severe challenges, (Jonathan Edwards). I apologise to the House for missing and if we do not discuss those honestly, we will confuse some speeches, including the one by the Member who people about what we can achieve, and then no wonder represents the Western Isles—I am sorry, but as a lowland they become cynical. Those in Scotland struggling with Scot I genuinely find it difficult to pronounce the name poor quality care know that. In addition, there are of his constituency in Gaelic so I shall just call it the issues in Scotland in the education field. Universities Western Isles. I missed his virtuoso performance because give free tuition, but as a result the colleges, which are I was sitting on a Public Bill Committee, not because I hugely important for social mobility—they give people did not want to hear what he had to say. a second chance in education—have been starved of The hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr finance. That is important. said that there was no difference between a Labour To sum up, we have to be somewhere in the middle Government and the current Government. As I have and make real changes in people’s lives, not pontificate said in some of my interventions, that is not correct. It about what might be possible in some wonderful place is dangerous to say so, too, because it makes a lot of where the sun always shines and no one is ever poor. people think that there is no point in voting or trying to change things because Governments do not make any difference and because there is no difference between 6.21 pm the parties. Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): The sun is For example, the reduction in pensioner poverty during certainly not shining in Scotland; I have had to send my the years of Labour government should not be forgotten. constituency office staff home because of the snow Many pensioners will not forget that. A lot of what that back in Airdrie. Government did created the base on which this Government I am delighted to make a late contribution to this propose to build with the single-tier pension. As I have debate, the title of which—fairness and inequality—is said before, it was not the triple lock that produced the the essence of why I got into politics. I am sure that highest cash payment to pensioners but inflation—an many of my colleagues, at least on the Opposition inflationary rise made necessary by the Government’s Benches, would say the same. Much has been said own—[Interruption.] I apologise to the Chair of the already about the tragedy of in-work poverty, so I shall Select Committee on Work and Pensions, of which I am restrict my comments to the impact of welfare reform a member, for not seeing her try to intervene. and Government cuts on inequality, and I will add my voice, and that of my constituents, to the call for a Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab): Does my commission of inquiry to look into the impact of welfare hon. Friend agree that one of the great achievements of reform and the Government’s other austerity measures the previous Labour Government on pensioner income, on inequality and poverty. 807 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 808

Jonathan Edwards: I believe the hon. Lady when she to find employment. How can he be expected to find a says that fairness and inequality were why she entered job at a time when more than 2 million people are still politics in the first place, but will she tell the House how unemployed, and at a time when many other servicemen she will vote later when we divide on our motion? and servicewomen will be joining him in the dole queue as further job cuts in the military are announced? Pamela Nash: It will not come as a surprise that while Most of the jobs that will be available to that I agree with the majority of the motion, I am disappointed ex-serviceman will be part-time jobs, or jobs involving by its tone. It does not recognise what the Labour zero-hours contracts. Moreover, he depends on housing Government achieved on inequality between 1997 and benefit to keep a roof over his head, and he has been hit 2010—in fact, it attacks that Government—so I will be by the bedroom tax. His child’s bedroom has been abstaining, and I am glad to have had the opportunity deemed to be a spare room by the Department for Work to put on the record my reasons for doing so. and Pensions, because the child also has a bedroom in In my region of north Lanarkshire, the welfare reforms the mother’s house, so he has had to pay bedroom tax will take £55 million out of the economy every year, for a long time in order to ensure that he still has regular which affects not just individuals whose benefits are access to the child. being cut, but local businesses in our town centres The Scottish Parliament recently passed a budget to which are now struggling to cope with a vast reduction fund complete mitigation of the bedroom tax. I welcome in customer numbers. That is damaging the development that measure, and I am glad that the Scottish Parliament and visible progress of the last 20 years, during which eventually listened to the Scottish Affairs Committee—of time we have struggled to repair the damage done to which I am a member, although we are not allowed into our depleted heavy industry and manufacturing in the the Parliament—but many people have already been west of Scotland. affected by the tax, and I have to say that the “smoke Partly owing to our industrial heritage, my constituency and mirrors” approach taken by the SNP to one of the has relatively high levels of disability and chronic illness—as clearest examples of UK Government policy making a result of old injuries from those days—and that has the poor poorer has been nothing short of shameful. made my community particularly vulnerable to the They have sat on their hands and done nothing when welfare cuts. Many households have a member living they could have taken action. with a disability or illness, as I see every day. I have been The UK Government made it very clear that the particularly perturbed by the scrapping of crisis loans, Scottish Government had the power to mitigate the which is affecting the most vulnerable in our society, bedroom tax long ago. The SNP said that there was no and although many of the changes have been mitigated cash, and then found £20 million. It subsequently said by the Scottish welfare fund, many people are still being that its hands were tied, but the Scottish Affairs Committee left in dire straits. Every day I see people whose benefits was told by the Scotland Office months ago that that have been sanctioned and who are no longer entitled to was rubbish, and that the Scottish Government already a crisis loan. had the power to mitigate the tax for all the people who were suffering in Scotland. I ask them now to think Dame Anne Begg: I am sure that my hon. Friend will about the people who have suffered since the bedroom be as disappointed as I was to learn that, according to tax was introduced 10 months ago, and to consider figures published today, the Scottish welfare fund has apologising to those people and telling them how they been underspent by a considerable amount. Obviously, will be recompensed. those who are losing out are the most vulnerable families. As I have said, I regret the tone of the motion, which It is a great shame that the SNP Government did not see does not acknowledge the progress made under the their way to ensuring that the money was properly spent Labour Government in alleviating the poverty of families and properly allocated. both in and out of work. I hope that the Government will heed the many important points that have been Pamela Nash: That does indeed upset me. When raised by members of all parties today, and that they people come to me and tell me that their benefits have will establish a commission of inquiry to examine the been subject to sanctions, it usually proves to have been impact of welfare reform—on the most vulnerable in due to an honest error; but are we really saying that, in particular—and to investigate inequality throughout this day and age, even those who have been sanctioned the United Kingdom. I also hope, for my constituents’ through their own fault should be starving? The only sake, that the Scottish Government will immediately places that I can tell those people to turn to are my local take advantage of every lever that their devolved powers food banks—and food banks throughout the country have made available to them to protect the people of are confirming that benefit sanctions are one of the Scotland, and will not continue to pretend that they are main reasons why people are going to them to obtain powerless to tackle inequality without independence. food just to survive. 6.29 pm I know that time is limited, so I shall try to keep the rest of my comments brief. The myriad statistics that Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): have been shouted across the Chamber today, and all Inequality is one of the great political scandals of our the political posturing, have sometimes made it difficult age, and it is important that we have had a chance to to bear in mind that individual people with whose cases debate the subject at length today. I have been somewhat we all deal as constituency Members are affected by the disappointed, however, at how few speeches there have cuts that are taking place. An old classmate of mine been from Government Members. Nevertheless, what from primary school came to see me a few weeks ago. we have lacked in quantity we have made up for in He is a former serviceman, and when he came out of the quality, with a number of substantial and considered Army he became a security guard, but he is now struggling speeches from both sides. 809 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 810

Over the past three decades, the gap between the rich that are opening up before us and consider not only the and the poor in our society and elsewhere has grown benefits of making policy decisions based on our own exponentially. The rewards of economic growth have values and aspirations but the uncertain consequences become increasingly concentrated in the hands of a of continuing along the path that the UK seems determined small minority, while those in the lower half of the to follow, with wealth and opportunity being increasingly income spectrum are being increasingly deprived of the concentrated among a small elite. just rewards for their efforts. We on these Benches have made the case that inequality, on the scale that we see in Dame Anne Begg: Obviously, if we are going to the UK and internationally, is bad for all of us. It is in pursue a more equal society, we will have to ensure that no one’s interest to have a society that is so divided by those at the top do not get richer. What are the SNP’s extremes of income and so damaged by social deprivation, policies for ensuring that those who are already rich but it is especially bad for those people who find themselves become poorer in order to narrow the income gap? trapped on low incomes and who have seen their spending power and social mobility reduced dramatically over Dr Whiteford: Had the hon. Lady been here for the the past 25 years. earlier part of the debate, she would have heard some We have had a wide-ranging debate today. It has back-and-forth chat about tax rates and such like. I will tackled issues as diverse as land ownership, fuel poverty, not rehearse those arguments. For Labour, there still health inequalities, taxation and social policy, as well as seems to be a zero sum game in which rich and poor a range of other disparate policy issues that would have to share out a very small cake. The fundamental normally be debated separately. All those topics have point that my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen been underpinned by the issue of economic inequality East and Dinefwr made earlier was that if we want to and the income gap that has grown so wide over recent tackle inequality, we need to grow the economy. Once decades. We have argued that inequality is not inevitable, we have done that, we will be in a much better position and that it is a political choice. The Government have at to tackle inequality and poverty alike. their disposal the fiscal levers to enable progressive and more redistributive measures, but in recent times we Mr Bain: Will the hon. Lady give way? have seen tax and benefit policies that have allowed the gulf between the haves and the have-nots to widen. A Dr Whiteford: I will not give way. I want to make number of hon. Members have pointed out that the impact some progress; I have a lot to get through in a limited of the tax and benefit changes has fallen disproportionately amount of time. on those in the lower half of the income distribution, particularly those in the lowest quintile, who have paid The extremes of income inequality that we see today the highest price for economic austerity. had their genesis in the late 1970s. The hon. Member for Dumfries and Galloway (Mr Brown) challenged the motion’s wording about the upward trend of inequality Mr MacNeil: It is important to bear in mind that in the UK. I am prepared to grant him that, in the early redistribution applies not only after tax but before tax. years of the Labour Government after 1997, there was a In regard to productivity gains, we need to ensure that stem in the rising tide of inequality, but if we look at the people get a fair day’s pay for a fair day’s work. long-term historical perspective we find that it is clear that from 2003 onwards inequality started to rise again. Dr Whiteford: My hon. Friend makes a useful point. We can argue the piece about that, and I would not take It is also important to note that those fiscal levers are away from the Labour party things it managed to not the only tools at the Government’s disposal for achieve in government that were beneficial to people, tackling inequality. Addressing the underlying drivers but I question the lack of responsibility we have seen of wage inequality requires sustained effort and a fresh from Members on both sides of the House. They have mindset about the policy choices that we can make to tried to blame each other for not only the financial further a more equitable model of economic growth collapse, but on how we have been dealing with the and to build a fairer, more inclusive and less divided aftermath. It is incumbent on us all to take responsibility society. for the situation in which we find ourselves and work My hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen East out how we can build a more prosperous future for and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) outlined some of the everyone, in which the rewards of our prosperity are positive ways in which equitable growth could be pursued shared more evenly. in Wales. He opened the debate by drawing our attention Today, the richest 10% of the population across the to the geographical distribution of inequality across the developed world have incomes nine times greater than UK, and argued convincingly that while much of those of the poorest 10%, but in the UK the margins are Government policy was orientated towards the needs of even more stark, with the richest 10% having incomes London and its surrounds, the consequences of that for 12 times greater than the incomes of the poorest 10%. the other nations and regions of the UK could be dire. Can we really say that a person’s contribution is worth Many of us have paid a heavy price for London’s 12 times that of another person? I find that a difficult prosperity. piece of maths to do; I certainly do not think I work It is notable that, with a few honourable exceptions, 12 times harder than people who are earning a lot less the speakers in today’s debate have come from Wales, than me in my constituency, as I know they work very Scotland and Northern Ireland. Perhaps that shows hard in difficult and often demanding jobs. how seriously the issue of inequality—which is distinct According to the OECD, the UK is now placed from, but related to, poverty—is taken in these islands. 28th out of 34 in its inequality league, as measured by It is obviously a pertinent issue in the context of Scotland’s the Gini coefficient. Of course that is not the only way referendum later this year, as we weigh up the two futures in which to measure inequality, and some commentators 811 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 812

[Dr Whiteford] incomes of the poorest households and the London-centric drivers of policy making. The under-occupancy penalty, who use a wider range of measures consider the UK’s or the bedroom tax as it is better known, is punishing inequalities to be even more stark. For example, Professor disadvantaged people in our society who live in social Dorling of Oxford university considers the UK to be housing and need help with their rent. It is squeezing the fourth most unequal country in the developed world, the incomes of those who are already most hard pressed despite being one of the wealthiest. Those of us who financially and driving the most extreme forms of inequality. aspire to live in a fairer, more equitable society will have In Scotland, around 80% of those affected by the bedroom been shocked by the research published by the Joseph tax are also affected by disability, which highlights that Rowntree Foundation in December, to which reference link between poverty and disability. Disabled people are has been made. It showed not just that 13 million people still disadvantaged in the workplace and often find it in the UK are living in poverty, but, for the first time, hard to make ends meet. The proportion of disabled that more than half of those people live in working people in the UK as a whole is slightly smaller than it is families. in Scotland, but it still represents two-thirds of the We used to hear the mantra that work is the route out households affected by the bedroom tax. of poverty. For people who are able to secure better-paid, We also have a structural mismatch between the full-time jobs that is undoubtedly true, but the reality of available housing stock and the needs of tenants. Some modern Britain is that now most poor people are working, 23% of the housing stock is one-bedroom accommodation, but that work no longer guarantees a life above the yet 60% of tenants need a one-bedroom house. Even if breadline. About 5 million people in the UK are paid it was in anyone’s interest to play musical chairs with below what would be considered a living wage, and housing allocations, there are simply not enough one- millions of working people find they have to depend on bedroom homes to go round. Provision of one-bedroom the benefits system to top their income up to adequate lets in the private sector also falls well short of demand levels. My hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan and, in any case, costs the public purse considerably an Iar (Mr MacNeil) made the point that the report more than renting from social landlords. As well as published yesterday by the Living Wage Commission pushing low-income households into debt, the policy is showed that 21% of the work force are being paid below costing more than it saves, and the Government’s persistence a living wage, which is a 9% increase in the past 12 months. in pursuing the policy is foolhardy in the extreme. People cannot get out of low-paid work. One of the I know that the Scottish Government have already most important points in the report, which echoes made extensive efforts to mitigate the impact of the comments made by the hon. Members for North East bedroom tax by increasing the budget for discretionary Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) and for Strangford (Jim housing payments to the legal limit. In answer to the Shannon), and my hon. Friend the Member for Moray strange and bizarre interventions by the hon. Member (Angus Robertson), was that once people are in a for Airdrie and Shotts (Pamela Nash), there are legal low-paid job, it is extremely difficult for them to get out constraints on how much the Scottish Government can of it. Only 18% of those people manage to get out of top up those payments. minimum wage work in the course of their working lives; a decade later those people are still stuck in those Pamela Nash rose— jobs. So work is a route out of poverty only for those people who have well-paid jobs. Dr Whiteford: No, I will not waste time taking an A number of hon. Members, the first being the intervention from the hon. Lady. Her earlier intervention Minister, mentioned food banks. We have seen a huge was really quite unbecoming. There has been cross-party increase in their use over the past two years, which is a support in the Scottish Parliament—not just from the shocking development in a wealthy country. We know Labour party and the SNP but from the Liberal Democrats that that increase has been driven by changes to the who are represented on the Government Benches—to benefits system, particularly by delays in benefits payments increase the discretionary housing payments budget to and the increased use of sanctions. It has also been mitigate the effects of the bedroom tax. I therefore ask driven by the rising cost of living. One thing that has the Secretary of State, who is in his place, to talk to his shocked me most in my constituency is the number of colleagues in the Department for Work and Pensions working people who are now dependent on food aid about the matter so that when the Deputy First Minister, parcels. Half a million people in the UK now depend on Nicola Sturgeon, is in London on Thursday, she can food aid, and instead of squabbling about whose fault it meet the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions to is and whose Government the levels rose most under, we progress the issue further. should be trying to tackle the problem and ensure that Transfers made to low-income households are the people have enough to eat. major tool through which our tax and benefits system Ours is a mature democracy with a well-developed compensates for the low-wage culture and, in a small welfare state, but the tax and benefits system remains way, mitigate the inequalities created by the structure of the main lever through which Governments mitigate our labour market. Over the past two years, as the hon. poverty and inequality. The recent reforms of the past Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) highlighted, changes couple of years have been overwhelmingly regressive to tax credits have created significant reductions in the and have exacerbated hardship. The promise from the incomes of families in low-paid work. Although some Chancellor in recent weeks that £60 billion of further very low earners have been lifted out of tax, the gains cuts are on the way shows that there will be no respite have been more than cancelled out by cuts to tax credits for disadvantaged people in modern Britain. Of all the and the freeze in the uprating of other benefits, which regressive measures we have seen in the past few years, have fallen in real-terms value. That point was also perhaps the changes to housing benefit best illustrate made at length by the hon. Member for Oldham East both the willingness of the Government to squeeze the and Saddleworth (Debbie Abrahams). 813 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 814

The Government’s own distributional analysis of their Durkan), in an important intervention, discussed the tax and benefit changes shows that the lower half of the Child Poverty Act 2010, and the important gains that income spectrum has paid the greatest price of austerity, were won with cross-party support in the House in the while tax cuts at the very top end have allowed the gap previous Parliament. This week, the Joseph Rowntree to grow between the haves and the have-nots. Foundation published a report on child poverty in A number of Members have drawn our attention to Scotland that showed that, although gains have been the fact that women make up a disproportionate share made, progress is under real threat because of the of the low-paid work force. In an early intervention, the austerity measures introduced by the Government. hon. Member for Coventry South (Mr Cunningham) Child poverty in Scotland has fallen by twice as much made the point that the Government have made tax as in England. Most reductions in poverty are attributable adjustments of £14 billion, £11 billion of which have to improvements in employment rates, but it has been fallen on women. It is unfortunate that he was not able argued that the additional fall in child poverty in Scotland, to stay to make a longer contribution, as I am sure that where it is now 40% lower, is due to a shift to full it would have been worth while. working—both parents in the family are working, and at least one of them is full time. That has not been Women are more likely to be in low-paid, part-time replicated across the UK. I have no doubt that that is work. They are more likely to be working in insecure, partly due to the fact that in Scotland we have the best temporary jobs, or on zero-hours contracts, and more child-care package anywhere in these islands. We have likely to be working in jobs for which they are overqualified. to go significantly further if we are to compete with the More than 40 years after the Equal Pay Act 1970, women best in Europe and have ambitions for the next generation. are still paid 12% less than men. When we look at who is Otherwise, we face the threat of more and more children poor in the UK, we find that women, especially women falling into child poverty. with children, are over-represented. When we look at who has been impacted most by the UK’s benefit reforms, The Scottish Government have made huge efforts to we see women once again in the front line. That is try to ensure that all our young people have opportunities. largely because women take on the greater share of A point made early in the debate by the hon. Member responsibility for child care and for looking after elderly for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous), which relatives. Child benefit, child tax credit and working tax was not picked up very much, concerned the issue of credit are all paid to the main carer of children, and skills, which are at the heart of how we increase prosperity when the changes were introduced, 83% of in-work and close the wage gap between high earners and lower families receiving those benefits had a woman payee. earners. The Scottish Government have introduced the “Opportunities for All” programme, which means that The second half of the 20th century saw women enter every single school leaver has the offer of a positive the labour market in ever-greater numbers, to some destination to take up when they leave. We have record extent masking the ever-widening gulf in wages by numbers of young people in apprenticeships. We also increasing overall household incomes. None the less, have record numbers of people completing apprenticeships. women are losing out heavily and as a society we lose Some 92% of young people who complete an apprenticeship out because women are not reaching their full potential. are in work six months later, with 79% of them in According to a recent report by the Resolution Foundation, full-time work. Over 90% of our school leavers are now two thirds of mothers find the cost of child care a in positive destinations, and 89.5% of them are in work barrier to working more. The UK labour market has nine months later, or in education or training. That is some of the lowest participation rates by mothers of the highest it has ever been, and it shows what can be any OECD country. Some women make a choice not to done when we put our mind to it. work when their children are small and choose to take a Today’s debate shows exactly why Scotland needs the break in their working life. Many, particularly those full fiscal levers of a normal country to tackle inequality, with more than one child, want to work part time, but why Wales needs the power to grow its economy and most women find that their choices are financially improve the prospects of its people, and why it is in the constrained. There is clear evidence that many women interests of the whole UK not to bury its head in the who want to work full time or work more hours face sand any longer but take responsibility for the failures barriers because they cannot afford child care. They of the past and respond to the needs of our citizens in cannot get work in the hours for which they are available, the next generation. The motion calls for a commission or they cannot get the kind of work for which they are to investigate the impact of welfare and spending cuts qualified. We all know families in which a second earner on poverty and inequality, which reflects the wishes of has given up work because they cannot afford the cost the House expressed on 13 January. Importantly, it goes of child care for pre-school children. That is particularly further, because we cannot really tackle poverty, particularly the case for people on low and average earnings, but I the kind of poverty that we have in the UK, unless we know men and women on graduate-level salaries who understand inequality and take steps to tackle its long-term have given up work because child care for more than drivers. That is why I fully support the motion, and I one child, plus commuting costs, adds up to working for hope that Members on both sides of the House who free. That is bad for families in the longer term, but it have listened carefully to the debate will join us in the also extremely bad for our economy. Lobby. The motion would allow us to address the Child care has been mentioned by a number of speakers, shortcomings of the past, and I hope that all Members and in my view, a step change in child care would be the will join us in building a fairer and more equal society. single most transformative policy that the UK Government could make in tackling inequality, because it would 6.49 pm boost prosperity, improve work incentives for parents, Stephen Crabb: With the leave of the House, I start by empower women in the workplace, and would help to thanking the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan tackle child poverty. The hon. Member for Foyle (Mark (Dr Whiteford) for summarising the debate in her usual 815 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 816

[Stephen Crabb] numbers of people returning to work and unemployment falling in our constituencies, those are real lives. People intelligent way, and all right hon. and hon. Members are making their way back into the jobs market, upping who have participated in this wide-ranging and interesting their skills and getting new confidence, which will make debate on subjects of huge importance to Members on a powerful difference in our communities. both sides of the House—fairness and inequality. The hon. Gentleman also made an important point I will meet head on some of the criticism that has about the decline of social mobility. I put on record that been levelled at the Government by saying that no both his nation of Scotland and mine of Wales at one Government Member is painting a rosy picture about time were beacons of social mobility. There was a time the challenges that many households and families still in Wales and Scotland when increasingly it did not face. None of us is complacent about the issues that we matter who one’s mum and dad were, what street one have been debating. As the country is still recovering grew up in or what jobs one’s parents did. There was a from the economic trauma that it was subjected to progressive trend of social mobility. We have gone into between 2008 and 2010, much progress remains to be reverse on that, and that is one of the great tragedies of made in seeing wages increase, seeing the emerging what has happened in the economy in recent decades. economic recovery spread to all parts of the country, My hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto and ensuring that people from all walks of life in all Bebb) made what I think was the speech of the day. He parts of the UK can share in that emerging economic spoke with expertise and experience about small businesses recovery. being the engines of job creation, not only in Wales but We are not painting a rosy picture about that recovery, across the UK. Members on both sides of the House but neither do we subscribe to the view that has been should pay tribute to him for the work he has done, put consistently today by Opposition Members that the particularly on interest rate swaps and on challenging growth is somehow not real; that it is somehow patchy the banks on the way in which they have treated small and fuelled by London and the south-east and what is businesses in recent years. He spoke powerfully and happening in the housing market. If they take time to passionately about the ethical and moral underpinning look at what the statistics tell them, they will see that the of our welfare reforms and what we are trying to emerging recovery is broadly balanced across all the achieve. It is not just about deficit reduction, and it is sectors of the economy—manufacturing, construction, not about attacking the poor or anything so absurd; it is tourism, services and exports. Progress must still be about seeing lives changed and communities that were made to ensure that the recovery reaches all parts of the blighted by worklessness unlock their potential so that UK, but just as three years ago they were deficit deniers, they can increasingly share in the emerging economic as we come to the end of this Parliament they have growth. become growth deniers. They deny that the growth and The hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir) drew on his the recovery are taking place. expertise on fuel poverty and energy markets. I promise This evening I will be urging hon. Members to reject to write to him, or to ensure that one of my ministerial the motion, because at its heart is the biggest risk of all colleagues does, on the specific point he raised. He to the emerging economic recovery, which is a return to mentioned pensioner poverty, as did other Members, so the failed economics of more spending, more borrowing let us remind ourselves of the figures. In 2011-12, 1.6 million and more debt. Just as so many Government Members pensioners were in relative poverty, which is close to the this afternoon have asked where the equity is in saddling lowest rate recorded. Pensioners are less likely to be in our children and grandchildren with yet more debt, the relative low income than the population as a whole. The fair, compassionate, progressive thing to do is to meet Government want all pensioners to have a decent and that challenge head on and see the deficit come down. secure income in retirement. In the minutes that remain I will refer to a number of The hon. Member for Dumfries and Galloway the speeches made by hon. Members. I pay tribute to (Mr Brown) seemed a little confused and uncertain the opening speech by my hon. Friend the Member for about what is happening to income inequality, so let us Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards), put on the record what the statistics show: income who spoke with typical passion and made a plea for inequality is falling under this Government, having fairness. However I take issue with his description of reached record levels under the previous Labour Wales as a colonial economy. I absolutely reject that Government. I very much agree with his comment that term. Wales is not a colonial economy. The economy of young people are not only our future—they are more Wales is highly integrated with the rest of the United important than that—but our today. That is why we are Kingdom. One reason why support for separatism is so making efforts to see youth unemployment fall, just as low in the Principality is that real people out there unemployment is falling right across the country. We understand how integrated the Welsh economy is with take seriously the opportunities facing our young people the rest of the United Kingdom. They reject the separatism and are in no way complacent about the challenges that of Plaid Cymru and the Opposition. today’s generation of young people will face. However, We had a long and interesting speech from the hon. let me remind Opposition Members that if we are Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil). He serious about the kind of future young people will face, started by introducing the philosophical challenge of we absolutely must reject the terms of the motion, what to do with a box of chocolates among children. I which calls for a return to more borrowing, more spending, disagreed with a lot of his economic analysis, but I more deficit and more debt. strongly agreed with him when he said that behind all My hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset the economic statistics that we are talking about are real (Jacob Rees-Mogg) made a characteristically entertaining lives. Members on both sides of the House should not speech in which he made some extremely important points lose sight of the fact that when we talk about record about business being the generator of growth and the creator 817 Fairness and Inequality11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fairness and Inequality 818 of jobs in the economy. He used the analogy of a rising Bridgen, Andrew Green, rh Damian tide carrying all boats, but it is business and private Brine, Steve Griffiths, Andrew sector growth that makes that tide rise. We absolutely Brokenshire, James Gummer, Ben agree. Brooke, Annette Gyimah, Mr Sam Browne, Mr Jeremy Hague, rh Mr William The hon. Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth Bruce, Fiona Halfon, Robert (Debbie Abrahams) drew on her expertise in health Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Hames, Duncan inequality and made a characteristically well-judged Buckland, Mr Robert Hands, Greg speech. I just remind her that in the nations of Wales Burns, Conor Harper, Mr Mark and Scotland, which we have focused on today, many of Burns, rh Mr Simon Harrington, Richard the policy levers that relate to health inequality—housing, Burrowes, Mr David Harris, Rebecca health and education, for example—lie with the devolved Burt, rh Alistair Hart, Simon Governments. I encourage her to look at what is happening Burt, Lorely Harvey, Sir Nick in Wales. If she studies that in detail, she might have Byles, Dan Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan some serious and difficult questions for her Labour Cairns, Alun Hayes, rh Mr John colleagues in Cardiff. Campbell, Mr Gregory Heald, Oliver Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Heath, Mr David My hon. Friend the Member for Bedford Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Heaton-Harris, Chris (Richard Fuller) made an excellent speech reinforcing Carswell, Mr Douglas Hemming, John the point that if we are serious about fairness, we must Chishti, Rehman Henderson, Gordon take seriously the issue of what kind of future our Clappison, Mr James Hendry, Charles young people and their children will face. That is why Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Herbert, rh Nick we remain absolutely committed to reducing the deficit Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hinds, Damian and restoring stability, discipline and order to our national Collins, Damian Hoban, Mr Mark finances. Colvile, Oliver Hollingbery, George Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hollobone, Mr Philip The hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) spoke Crabb, Stephen Holloway, Mr Adam about zero-hours contracts, which she clearly regards as Crouch, Tracey Hopkins, Kris a negative thing. The number of zero-hours contracts in Davey, rh Mr Edward Howarth, Sir Gerald the economy was the same in 2013 as it was in 2000, so Davies, David T. C. Howell, John the idea that there has been some kind of explosion in (Monmouth) Hughes, rh Simon the number is just not correct. If she really regards them Davies, Glyn Hunter, Mark as such a bad thing, she should speak to her colleagues Davies, Philip Huppert, Dr Julian running Carmarthenshire— de Bois, Nick Hurd, Mr Nick Dinenage, Caroline Jackson, Mr Stewart Pete Wishart claimed to move the closure (Standing Djanogly, Mr Jonathan James, Margot Order No. 36). Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Javid, Sajid Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Jenkin, Mr Bernard Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put. Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Johnson, Gareth Question agreed to. Dorries, Nadine Jones, Andrew Main Question accordingly put. Doyle-Price, Jackie Jones, rh Mr David Drax, Richard Jones, Mr Marcus The House divided: Ayes 11, Noes 287. Duncan, rh Mr Alan Kawczynski, Daniel Division No. 209] [6.59 pm Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Kelly, Chris Ellis, Michael Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Ellwood, Mr Tobias Kirby, Simon AYES Elphicke, Charlie Knight, rh Sir Greg Corbyn, Jeremy Ritchie, Ms Margaret Eustice, George Kwarteng, Kwasi Durkan, Mark Robertson, Angus Evans, Graham Lamb, Norman Edwards, Jonathan Weir, Mr Mike Evans, Jonathan Lancaster, Mark Hosie, Stewart Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Evennett, Mr David Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Lucas, Caroline Tellers for the Ayes: Fabricant, Michael Latham, Pauline MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Mr Elfyn Llwyd and Farron, Tim Laws, rh Mr David McDonnell, John Pete Wishart Field, Mark Lee, Jessica Foster, rh Mr Don Lee, Dr Phillip Fox,rhDrLiam Leech, Mr John NOES Freeman, George Lefroy, Jeremy Adams, Nigel Berry, Jake Freer, Mike Leigh, Sir Edward Afriyie, Adam Bingham, Andrew Fullbrook, Lorraine Lewis, Brandon Amess, Mr David Binley, Mr Brian Fuller, Richard Lewis, Dr Julian Andrew, Stuart Birtwistle, Gordon Gale, Sir Roger Lloyd, Stephen Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Blackman, Bob Garnier, Sir Edward Lord, Jonathan Bacon, Mr Richard Blackwood, Nicola Garnier, Mark Loughton, Tim Baker, Norman Blunt, Mr Crispin Gauke, Mr David Luff, Sir Peter Baldry, rh Sir Tony Boles, Nick George, Andrew Lumley, Karen Barclay, Stephen Bone, Mr Peter Gilbert, Stephen Macleod, Mary Barker, rh Gregory Bottomley, Sir Peter Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Main, Mrs Anne Baron, Mr John Bradley, Karen Glen, John Maynard, Paul Bebb, Guto Brady, Mr Graham Goodwill, Mr Robert McCartney, Karl Bellingham, Mr Henry Brake, rh Tom Grant, Mrs Helen McCrea, Dr William Benyon, Richard Bray, Angie Gray, Mr James McIntosh, Miss Anne Beresford, Sir Paul Brazier, Mr Julian Grayling, rh Chris McPartland, Stephen 819 Fairness and Inequality 11 FEBRUARY 2014 820

McVey, Esther Russell, Sir Bob Wheeler, Heather Wilson, Sammy Menzies, Mark Rutley, David White, Chris Wollaston, Dr Sarah Mercer, Patrick Sanders, Mr Adrian Whittaker, Craig Wright, Jeremy Metcalfe, Stephen Sandys, Laura Whittingdale, Mr John Wright, Simon Milton, Anne Selous, Andrew Wiggin, Bill Yeo, Mr Tim Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Shapps, rh Grant Williams, Mr Mark Young, rh Sir George Moore, rh Michael Shelbrooke, Alec Williams, Roger Mordaunt, Penny Simmonds, Mark Williams, Stephen Tellers for the Noes: Morgan, Nicky Simpson, David Williamson, Gavin Harriett Baldwin and Morris, David Simpson, Mr Keith Willott, Jenny Gavin Barwell Mowat, David Skidmore, Chris Munt, Tessa Smith, Chloe Question accordingly negatived. Murray, Sheryll Smith, Julian Murrison, Dr Andrew Smith, Sir Robert Neill, Robert Soames, rh Nicholas Business without Debate Newmark, Mr Brooks Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Newton, Sarah Spencer, Mr Mark Nokes, Caroline Stanley, rh Sir John DELEGATED LEGISLATION Nuttall, Mr David Stephenson, Andrew O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Stewart, Bob Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Ollerenshaw, Eric Stewart, Iain Order No. 118(6)), Opperman, Guy Stewart, Rory Ottaway, rh Sir Richard Streeter, Mr Gary COMMUNITY INFRASTRUCTURE LEVY Paice, rh Sir James Stride, Mel That the draft Community Infrastructure Levy (Amendment) Paisley, Ian Stuart, Mr Graham Regulations 2014, which were laid before this House on 20 January, Parish, Neil Stunell, rh Sir Andrew be approved.—(John Penrose.) Patel, Priti Sturdy, Julian Pawsey, Mark Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Question agreed to. Penning, Mike Syms, Mr Robert Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Penrose, John Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Order No. 118(6)), Percy, Andrew Teather, Sarah Phillips, Stephen Thornton, Mike PUBLIC BODIES Pincher, Christopher Thurso, John That the draft Public Bodies (Abolition of the National Consumer Poulter, Dr Daniel Timpson, Mr Edward Council and Transfer of the Office of Fair Trading’s Functions in Prisk, Mr Mark Tomlinson, Justin relation to Estate Agent etc) Order 2014, which was laid before Pritchard, Mark Tredinnick, David this House on 5 December 2013, be approved.—(John Penrose.) Pugh, John Turner, Mr Andrew Raab, Mr Dominic Tyrie, Mr Andrew The Speaker’s opinion as to the decision of the Question Randall, rh Sir John Uppal, Paul being challenged, the Division was deferred until Wednesday Reckless, Mark Vickers, Martin 12 February (Standing Order No. 41A). Redwood, rh Mr John Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Rees-Mogg, Jacob Walker, Mr Charles Order No. 118(6)), Reid, Mr Alan Walker, Mr Robin Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Walter, Mr Robert THE COUNTY COURT Robertson, rh Hugh Ward, Mr David Robertson, Mr Laurence Watkinson, Dame Angela That the draft County Court Jurisdiction Order 2014, which Rosindell, Andrew Weatherley, Mike was laid before this House on 18 December 2013, be approved.—(John Rudd, Amber Webb, Steve Penrose.) Ruffley, Mr David Wharton, James Question agreed to. 821 11 FEBRUARY 2014 Nagorno-Karabakh and Azerbaijan 822

Nagorno-Karabakh and Azerbaijan state authorities, with church leaders arrested and sent to jail. Should not our Government make representations Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House to the Azerbaijan Government to stop the persecution do now adjourn.—(John Penrose.) of Christians and actions against the churches? 7.13 pm Stephen Pound: The hon. Gentleman’s record on Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): May I share addressing the persecution of Christians is second to with the House the fact that this month marks the none, and I hope that his words reverberate and are 20th anniversary of the ceasefire between Azerbaijan heard beyond this Chamber. and Nagorno-Karabakh, which is also known as the mountainous Karabakh republic? Many people know After the Caucasus bureau voted for Nagorno-Karabakh very little about the political situation in the south being allocated to Armenia, there was an intervention Caucasus, but I am very grateful to the hon. Member by the Communist party leader in Azerbaijan, Nariman for Maldon (Mr Whittingdale), my hon. Friend the Narimanov, who reversed that decision. He was guided Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) and in this by the people’s commissar for nationalities—better the noble Lady, Baroness Cox in the other House, for known to us as Joseph Stalin. frequently raising the subject. My purpose in raising it Things came to a head in 1985, when Gorbachev was in this Adjournment debate is that the Minsk process elected in the Soviet Union. In the ensuing feeling of has sought to resolve the conflict since the ceasefire perestroika—the slight lifting of the yoke—there were 20 years ago, but now appears to be stalled, if not demonstrations in Yerevan and Baku, which were very frozen. I seek tonight to try to apply the gentlest of much about determination of what was then called an nudges to the three Minsk co-chairs, to see if we cannot enclave between the two countries. In February 1988, make progress. there were skirmishes near Askeran in Artsakh, on the It is difficult to understand and almost impossible to Stepanakert-Agdam road. Then there was what is still— appreciate the full extent and horror of the war that rightly—called the pogram in Sumgait, in which many raged between February 1988 and May 1994 in Nagorno- Armenians were killed in the most horrendous Karabakh. One has to go back many centuries if one circumstances. There were riots for three days and then wants to discover its origin, but, for the sake of brevity, the Soviet Army intervened. As if that were not enough, Mr Speaker, and to avoid testing your patience and in December 1988 there was an enormous earthquake, indulgence, I shall refer to a couple of simple and basic which killed 25,000 people in what was then called facts. In that war—and it was a war; it was not a Leninakan and is now Gyumri. regional conflict, a local conflagration or skirmish—on That period saw increasing tension along the borders, one side was an Azerbaijani army of 42,000 people, of including in January 1990 an air and rail blockade by whom 11,000 died, and on the Armenian side was an the Azerbaijan Soviet Socialist Republic, another pogrom, army of 20,000, of whom 6,000 died. There were Afghan and finally Gorbachev declaring a state of emergency. mujaheddin and Chechen volunteers fighting on the There was fighting throughout the Azeri cities, and side of the Azeris, and Armenian volunteers and people then, in spring 1991, Operation Ring, in which Ayas from the diaspora fighting on the other side. It was an Mutalibov—the Azerbaijani leader, who was seen at the extraordinarily bloody war, and I think that, because time as one of the new wave of non-communist leaders there was UK-British involvement in the early days of that included Yeltsin, who had just been elected in the creation of the boundaries of these republics, we Russia, and Levon Ter-Petrossian in Armenia—launched have a duty to do what we can to nudge the matter a military offensive against Armenians in the Shahumyan forward. area, with a view to ethnically cleansing the area. That After the Russian revolution in 1917, the three south is when the diaspora, personified in some ways by Caucasian republics, Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia, Monte Melkonian, who was one of the great leaders, together formed a trans-Caucasian federation, which realised that it had to support ethnic Armenians in their sadly did not last long, collapsing after three months. homeland. British troops occupied a great deal of the south Caucasus, particularly Baku in Azerbaijan, in 1919, pending the Gorbachev resigned in December 1991. That allowed Paris peace conference—a period in which we were the old Soviet Union to collapse in the south Caucasus rightly involved in the area. However, the Soviet army region. Azerbaijan voted to rescind the autonomous invaded and set up something called the Kavburo—the oblast status of Nagorno-Karabakh. The Armenians Caucasus bureau—which at the time voted 4:3 in favour did the same and declared independence on 6 January of the area we know as the mountainous Karabakh 1992. republic or Nagorno-Karabakh being allocated to Armenia. Then the war started, and it was a war. There was a You will know, Mr Speaker, as will many in this complete imbalance between the two armies. Together, House, that the dividing line between the two communities Nagorno-Karabakh and Armenia had 170 tanks and is very deep and very ancient. Armenia has been a 360 armoured personnel carriers, but no fighter aircraft. Christian country since 301 AD; the vast majority of The Azeris had 300 tanks, the same number of APCs the population of Nagorno-Karabakh are Christian, and, crucially, 170 fighter aircraft. They were helicopter and the majority of the population of Azerbaijan Muslim. gunships—the old Mil Mi-24s that were left over from There has been a degree of tension, which has spilled the Russian retreat. Throughout this sad and sorry over into bloody ethnic conflict. story, almost all the weapons, armaments, ordnance and artillery pieces were left by the retreating Russians. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Churches had to It was like there was a vast warehouse of weaponry register in Azerbaijan by 1 January 2010. Any house throughout the south Caucasus—an enormous bonfire churches active after that date were raided by police and waiting for the spark. 823 Nagorno-Karabakh and Azerbaijan11 FEBRUARY 2014 Nagorno-Karabakh and Azerbaijan 824

[Stephen Pound] Azerbaijan through BP and other companies in that sector. The country is increasingly important to the There were appalling scenes throughout the war. British economy, and I hope he will reflect that in his There were accusations of atrocities on both sides, comments. many of which have been investigated. In May 1992, the war took a crucial turn when the Armenians captured Stephen Pound: I am grateful, and I place on record the headland or redoubt of the Azerbaijan army in the my appreciation for the hon. Gentleman and the work area that most people now know as Shushi, but which at he is undertaking in that area. To show how important that time was called Shusha. At that time, much of the that link is, when President Ilham Aliyev made critical fighting was being done by Chechens, who were fighting comments fairly recently—I think it was on 17 October for jihad. Their leader, Shamil Basayev, referred to the 2012—in connection with British Petroleum’s output soldiers of the so-called Dashnak battalion, which is from the Azeri–Chirag–Guneshli field, our ambassador also known as the Dashnaktsutyun or the Armenian to Azerbaijan, Peter Bateman, said: Revolutionary Federation, as the only people who had “I shall be calling on BP in London next week to find out what ever defeated him. more, if anything, we can do to help”. I could describe the war further, but that is not really That shows a remarkable degree of association with the the point of this debate. Towards the end of the war, in British Government, and of involvement at a very high January 1994, even by the horrific standards of modern level. Indeed, the FCO was vital in negotiating what warfare, things had got to an almost unbearably painful was widely called the “contract of the century”, which phase. Azerbaijan extended the call-up to boys of 16. was signed in Azerbaijan in 1994. Co-operation was so The war entered what objective, independent observers close that when we first posted ambassadorial staff to call the “human wave” phase. Andrei Sakharov, who is the Republic of Azerbaijan they were located in BP’s often quoted in this Chamber, said at the time: offices in Baku. The relationship continues and prospers. “For Azerbaijan the issue of Karabakh is a matter of ambition, In fact, the Foreign Secretary attended the signing for the Armenians of Karabakh, it is a matter of life or death”. ceremony for the final investment decision on the Shah The peace process started. In 1994, it was recognised Deniz 2 project in Baku. that it was, in effect, a frozen conflict. The Minsk group, with its three co-chairs, who are currently Igor Popov Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): The Foreign from the Russian Federation, Jacques Faure from France Secretary told me in response to a parliamentary question and James Warlick of the USA, is working as hard as it that he raised human rights issues on that visit. Does can to move matters forward. I hope and believe that it my hon. Friend know, and will he press the Minister on is doing so with the support, knowledge and understanding whether the Foreign Secretary also raised the issue of of Her Majesty’s Government. The co-chairs visited Nagorno-Karabakh? Baku and Yerevan just this month. However, matters along the line of contact are not Stephen Pound: Like many Members, I was in the good. Twenty soldiers were killed along the ceasefire Chamber for the debate that my hon. Friend initiated line in 2013, despite the existence of the ceasefire. There on that issue, but I think, with respect, that the Minister were nearly 200 ceasefire violations between 2 and may be a more appropriate person to respond. I am not 8 February of this year. Often, the violations involve entirely privy to every detail of the negotiations and people firing across the border, including snipers, but discussions, but I certainly recall the debate on this there are also more violent incidents. The line of contact important issue. is porous and is coming under increased pressure. There are some signs of movement. Just this week, People will be asking themselves the question, as I the United States ambassador to Azerbaijan, Richard would be if I were listening to this debate, “What can we Morningstar, issued a statement to say that the United do?” Every Member of Parliament is inundated by States is being even more active in resolution of the letters saying, “Please put pressure on country X or Nagorno-Karabakh conflict than in the past. He said: nation Y and do something about it.” What can we do “I can understand the frustration of the Azerbaijani people in this case? I think that we have a crucial role to play. about the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict. We are committed to There is not a massive amount of trade between the trying to bring about resolution. It is a good thing that presidents United Kingdom and Armenia. Fewer than 10 UK met in November.” firms are active in Armenia. We gave Armenia £882,000 There is some movement. This week, the co-chairs of in aid last year. I pay credit to our remarkable joint the OSCE Minsk group have spoken of their hope for ambassadors in Yerevan, Kathy Leach and Jonathan moving forward on this issue, particularly because of Aves, who work extraordinarily hard to progress British the additional truce that was agreed before the winter trade interests in the area. However, we could do much games in Sochi. more. By contrast, Azerbaijan was given £1,335,000 in Human rights issues in Azerbaijan are probably not aid over the same period, and we have very close trade the subject of this debate, but I am looking to get some links. The United Kingdom is actually the 15th largest movement to allow some peace to return to a deeply trade partner of Azerbaijan, and the major role of BP troubled part of the world. This may be commonplace in oil extraction, refining and marketing cannot be and obvious, and it may almost be otiose for me to say underestimated. it, but it is one of the great tragedies that some of the most beautiful parts of the world are the places that are Charles Hendry (Wealden) (Con): The hon. Gentleman most troubled. One thinks of parts of central Africa, will be aware that I am the Prime Minister’s trade envoy East Timor, and so many countries of great heart-stopping to Azerbaijan. Our trading links go much further than beauty. Anyone who has been to Nagorno-Karabakh—as that, and indeed, we are by far the biggest investor in I know many Members of the House have—will never 825 Nagorno-Karabakh and Azerbaijan11 FEBRUARY 2014 Nagorno-Karabakh and Azerbaijan 826 forget those great sweeping, soaring mountains, those 7.33 pm deep, eye-stretching valleys, and the churches going back nearly 2,000 years, with distinctive Armenian crosses The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign everywhere one looks. We need to do something to and Commonwealth Affairs (Mark Simmonds): I congratulate bring back that peace. the hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound) on securing the debate and on the extremely articulate, In addition, we are approaching the anniversary of comprehensive and passionate way in which he set out the great Armenian genocide of 1915. If ever there was his case. He combined a detailed understanding of the a time when this House could look to Armenia with history with an extreme passion for trying to find a support, friendship and solidarity, it is as we approach satisfactory lasting resolution to this long-standing conflict this anniversary. The Member for Portsmouth South in the south Caucasus region. He, and all Members of (Mr Hancock) is not in the Chamber, but I notified him this House, will be extremely concerned with the lack of that I was likely to mention his name. Every time we progress in resolving this conflict. This is not just an have discussed the Armenian genocide and the current issue for Members of this House, but for many of the situation, he has chosen to use comments such as “the hon. Gentleman’s constituents, as well as those people so-called genocide” and say how he disapproves of any living in the south Caucasus region. democratic opposition in Azerbaijan. He never misses The hon. Gentleman was right to highlight the fact an opportunity to defend President Aliyev. That is a that the conflict dates back to before world war one. Its shame, because I would have thought that if there is one causes are very deep-rooted. The conflict that broke out thing the House can agree on it is that a genocide of the between Armenia and Azerbaijan over Nagorno-Karabakh most horrendous proportions did take place in Anatolia, as the Soviet Union disintegrated created not only the Van and what was then called western Armenia. The problems to which he alluded but hundreds of thousands 1915 genocide was the third genocide and was particularly of refugees. For many of those refugees, the situation horrendous. Would it not be a good thing if we were to either has not improved or has improved little since lend our support, put our shoulder to the wheel, and try then. The conflict continues to hamper development in to move Minsk forward in time for the commemorations both Armenia and Azerbaijan and cause further instability of this appalling genocide? in the already troubled region of the south Caucasus. Some would say, “Can we not put this matter behind It goes without saying that finding a lasting solution us?” I am not Armenian and I am not Azeri. I do not will be vital in alleviating the suffering still felt in the have a drop of blood of either of those nations in my region. I am extremely grateful for the work being done veins. However, I cannot help but note that even though by the hon. Gentleman and other Members of both much of what we talked about this evening appears to Houses to raise awareness of that tragic conflict. Of be in the past, it is a past that still resonates. course, it does not need to be said that we are not much further on than we were 20 years ago, and we are almost Many people will know the situation that occurred at that 20th anniversary. on 18 February 2004. Extraordinarily, soldiers from Azerbaijan and Armenia were present at a NATO The hon. Gentleman used the phrase “a frozen conflict”. partnership for peace activity in Budapest. One Azerbaijani Let me gently say that I think that that is misleading. As soldier, Ramil Safarov, decided to buy an axe and take he rightly pointed out, fighting continues to this day. the head off an Armenian soldier, Gurgen Markarian. The UK is concerned by the ongoing breach of the This happened in Hungary in 2004. This is not ancient ceasefire along the line of contact as well as along the history; this is recent history. At the time, the Azerbaijan Armenia-Azerbaijan border. There were reports of human rights commissioner said that Safarov must increasing numbers of ceasefire violations in January become an example of patriotism for Azerbaijani youth and early February, as he rightly mentioned. We were and the National Democratic party awarded him the pleased that the Presidents of both countries committed man of the year award in 2005. When the Hungarians to a truce during the winter Olympics. While fighting released Ramil Safarov, he returned to Azerbaijan to be continues, there is always a danger of escalation, whether promoted to the rank of major. He received eight years that is deliberate or not, and we urge both sides to back pay and was given accommodation. It is that raw exercise restraint and avoid provocation. and it is that recent. My point is that these emotions The UK strongly supports the work of the co-chairs simply cannot be allowed to fester. When we have a of the Minsk group-led peace process and I agree with feeling of animosity between two peoples that leads to a the hon. Gentleman on that point. We also recognise the fellow soldier on a NATO joint exercise decapitating frustration that he rightly articulated about the fact that another soldier, that is something intensely felt and we progress has been slow and that it feels as though we are must be able to somehow push that forward and improve no closer to a resolution than we were 20 years ago. the situation. However, at last year’s G8 summit in Lough Erne the The British Government cannot demand action, but three co-chairs primarily made the point that it was for what we can do is to show our concern. I know the the Armenian and Azerbaijani Governments to take Minister and respect him, as do most in the House. We ownership of the peace process. It is their conflict and have an opportunity to put down a marker: to say it was they must take responsibility to resolve it. Of course, an awful, bloody and terrible war, but that it finished the co-chairs work hard to facilitate progress and we 20 years ago. Let us finally end this awful conflict, and and the international community stand ready to provide allow two nations to emerge into the sunshine to live in further support when the time is right. peace. Then we can talk about human rights, but at least The UK is concerned that neither Armenia nor let us talk without the sound of gunfire, without the Azerbaijan is creating a situation in which a peace smell of cordite and without the chill anticipation of agreement would be acceptable to their populations. A death. generation of people from both countries now exists 827 Nagorno-Karabakh and Azerbaijan11 FEBRUARY 2014 Nagorno-Karabakh and Azerbaijan 828

[Mark Simmonds] The UK has invested more than £1.5 million over the last three years funding projects that attempt to break that has had no contact with anyone from the other country. down walls and develop an understanding between the That is all the more regrettable given that throughout communities affected by the conflict. However, the leaders much of the region’s history the two communities resided of both sides must play their part, and we consistently peacefully alongside each other, as they still do in urge Armenia and Azerbaijan to work with the Minsk neighbouring Georgia. Armenians and Azerbaijanis living group to reduce tensions and create an environment in isolation goes against that trend and we need collectively conducive to a peaceful, long-lasting settlement. My to address that. hon. Friend the Member for Wealden (Charles Hendry), The perceptions that many citizens of both countries the Prime Minister’s special trade envoy to Azerbaijan, have of their close neighbour are now founded on negative was right that a peaceful solution will be beneficial, in stereotypes and aggressive rhetoric. Neither Government economic and trade terms, to Azerbaijan, Armenia and have done enough to counter that image and, at times, the whole of the south Caucasus. We feel that is a way they have actively encouraged those perceptions. The for the UK to play a significant part in engagement and longer the conflict continues and the longer both reducing tensions, and we specifically encouraged the Governments shy from preparing their populations for meeting of the Presidents of Armenia and Azerbaijan, peace, the greater the loss of life will be for both sides which happened last November, after almost two years, and the more difficult it will be to find a lasting solution and we hope that further meetings between them will to the conflict. The UK Government do not underestimate take place soon. the fact that finding peace will involve difficult decisions These two countries occupy a pivotal geographical and compromises. Despite the difficulties, we are committed position just east of the EU and are an important part to doing everything we can to foster efforts to find a of the EU’s wider neighbourhood, and the EU works resolution to the conflict. with them through the Eastern Partnership. Both have huge potential, vibrant, dynamic populations and We continue to encourage Azerbaijan and Armenia geostrategic locations, situated, as they are, between to follow the Madrid principles, to exercise restraint, to Europe and Asia, with Russia to the north and the Gulf avoid provocation and to redouble efforts to achieve a states to the south. The south Caucasus can be a negotiated settlement based on the principles of refraining crossroads for trade, transport and energy, linking China, from the threat or use of force, territorial integrity and central Asia, the Caspian sea, Turkey, Europe and the the people’s right to self-determination. middle east. Given that potential, it is hugely disappointing The hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen that this conflict remains unresolved, not least as we Goodman) rightly mentioned the Foreign Secretary’s approach the 20th anniversary of the ceasefire agreement discussions, and I can assure her, the hon. Member for this May. The UK, as a friend of both countries, will Ealing North and the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim continue to support all efforts to resolve this protracted Shannon), who has a particular passion for the plight of conflict. These efforts are crucial to helping both countries Christians everywhere in the world, that the Foreign and the broader south Caucasus region reap the substantial Secretary raised the importance of human rights and rewards and benefits that lasting peace and stability will Nagorno-Karabakh when he met President Aliyev. He bring. also raised those issues with Armenian Foreign Minister Question put and agreed to. Nalbandian last May. We regularly speak and raise these important issues with representatives of both 7.42 pm Governments at all levels. House adjourned. 191WH 11 FEBRUARY 2014 Tourism (VAT) 192WH

has just come out of the bail-out situation—the VAT Westminster Hall rate reduction has underpinned businesses in the tourism sector and encouraged new ones to emerge.

Tuesday 11 February 2014 Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): I, too, commend the hon. Lady and her colleagues on securing this important debate. To be parochial for a moment, in [MR PHILIP HOLLOBONE in the Chair] Northern Ireland the problem is our land frontier with the Irish Republic where, as she has just mentioned, there is a lower rate of VAT. Is that not a particular Tourism (VAT) issue for the Province, given people’s propensity simply Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting to go south to enjoy better VAT rates? be now adjourned.—(Mr Swayne.) Ms Ritchie: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his 9.30 am very helpful intervention. I absolutely agree with him. My constituency borders County Louth in the Republic Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): I am of Ireland. Many people come to the island of Ireland pleased not only to have secured the debate but to serve via Dublin airport, where there will be a zero rate of air under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. I am pleased passenger duty from April this year. The lower VAT rate that the Minister is here to listen and to respond. I on tourism products encourages many of them to use thank my co-signatories to the debate, my friends the their purchasing power on accommodation and restaurants hon. Members for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas), in the Republic of Ireland, rather than travelling north, and for Strangford (Jim Shannon). I am pleased to see where they would have an opportunity to invest in our an excellent turnout from MPs across the UK and local economy. across the House, which reflects the importance of the As a labour-intensive industry, the tourism sector is a debate. I offer an apology from my hon. Friend the leading employer. In particular, it offers younger people Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), who is on a Public entry-level jobs at the start of their careers, and more Bill Committee on consumer rights this morning. During than 44% of people employed in the sector are less than the past couple of years, he has submitted an early-day 30 years old. We face a youth unemployment crisis, with motion on the subject, and tabled an amendment to a more than one in four young people out of work, and Finance Bill on the issue. the Government’s lack of support for the tourism sector A reduction in VAT is important for tourism, which is clearly impairing job creation. A cut in the rate of is a vital industry across these islands; it provides 10% VAT would create demand, which would spur job creation of GDP and supports more than 2 million jobs in the and go some way towards reducing youth unemployment. UK. In Ireland, the industry employs some 180,000 people In Ireland, the VAT cut for tourism has produced an and generates an estimated ¤5 billion a year. There is extra 10,000 jobs in just over a year. A prominent report potential for significant growth in the sector, especially on the subject published by Deloitte produced evidence in Northern Ireland, and that growth would boost that a similar tourist VAT cut in the UK would create associated industries and the wider economy. some 80,000 jobs. Those who come to the UK as tourists spend money in our hotels, pubs, restaurants and shops. They bring Mr Geoffrey Cox (Torridge and West Devon) (Con): economic life to areas that have struggled in the recent I congratulate the hon. Lady on securing this extremely economic climate. However, the tourism industry was important debate. I represent an area of the south-west hit particularly hard by the higher rate of VAT introduced that is affected by flooding. Does she empathise, and by the Government, and no alleviation has been offered. does she agree that if the Chancellor considered a cut in It is common practice across the EU for member states VAT, it would be a hugely welcome boost to the thousands to introduce sector-specific cuts for the tourism industry, of small tourist businesses on which the economy of the which some offer for accommodation rates, some for south-west depends, and that it would help those who tourist and cultural attractions and some for restaurant are shivering in the midst of the flooding? charges. The UK is one of only four states that ignore all those options. As a result, the industry in Britain and Ms Ritchie: I thank the hon. and learned Gentleman Northern Ireland confronts one of the worst policy for his helpful intervention. My colleagues from Northern regimes possible. Ireland and I offer our sympathy, support and empathy to the people of the south-west. My aunt used to work Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): I in the hospitality industry in Plymouth many years ago, congratulate the hon. Lady on securing the debate. so I know it quite well. I suggest to the Minister that a Small hospitality businesses in my constituency are cut in VAT would help those who are struggling afraid to go above the threshold for VAT registration economically, financially and emotionally at this difficult for fear of having to pay a rate of 20% on their income. time. Does she agree that reducing the VAT rate would encourage such small businesses to expand? Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): I congratulate the hon. Lady on securing the debate and on the forceful Ms Ritchie: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his way in which she is putting her case. Does she agree that helpful intervention, and I completely agree with him. attractive tourist destinations such as Northern Ireland In our nearest neighbour, the Republic of Ireland, VAT and Merseyside are being hampered competitively by on tourism products is now 9%. Even in the difficult the arrangements elsewhere in Europe that she has economic climate that the Republic has experienced—it described? 193WH Tourism (VAT)11 FEBRUARY 2014 Tourism (VAT) 194WH

Ms Ritchie: The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely There is strong evidence from the Treasury’s own correct. Other countries in the EU, including Belgium, economic modelling, as used by Professor Adam Blake the Netherlands and Germany, have much more competitive in a study for the British Hospitality Association, that a rates. In France, for example, there is a banking agreement VAT cut for the sector would benefit the whole economy. between the Government and the industry. Such measures Yes, there might be a loss of some £640 million in the help to attract visitors and ensure that the money they first year, but that would be comfortably offset by years spend is invested in the local economy. 2 and 3 of the programme. Figures show that a 15% cut in tourism VAT would quickly become revenue-neutral Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): I and would result in a radically increased tax take of congratulate the hon. Lady on securing this incredibly £2.6 billion over 10 years, delivering a £4 billion boost important debate. She mentioned the possibility that a to the gross domestic product. I repeat: those figures VAT rate reduction for the tourism industry would lead do not come from the industry or lobbying consultants. to increased job creation. Would she recognise that They are derived from the Treasury’s own internal many people in the tourism industry—particularly in economic models. places such as my constituency, the Lake district, and the Yorkshire dales—are desperate not only to create Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): The more jobs but to ensure that jobs are better paid and hon. Lady will be aware that alongside this debate and that a living wage can be paid to people working in the campaign there is great concern, as expressed in the tourism industry? Does she acknowledge that a cut to a main Chamber just a few days ago, about the plight of fairer level of VAT would help to make tourism a more struggling pubs, many of which are closing each and high-wage industry? every week. There are a number of issues behind that. Beer taxation, which the Government started to address, Ms Ritchie: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his is certainly one of them, but VAT is hampering that intervention and I agree with him. Many jobs in the industry as well, particularly when pubs survive through tourism sector are quite low paid, but if there was a the food that they provide. Does the hon. Lady agree level playing field in taxation rates, that would afford that one way to help pubs, which are a vital part of the the opportunity for employers to pay better rates. It tourism industry, would be to consider how they are would also ensure that people have confidence and affected by VAT? trust, and would allow them to do a better job in promoting their local areas. Ms Ritchie: I thank the hon. Gentleman, who is the Chair of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, for I would like to make a little progress. Will the Minister his intervention. I agree with him on that point, but I robustly consider the case for a reduction in VAT on see restaurants and pubs that serve food as being further hotel accommodation and visitor attractions from 20% down the line, so to speak. Nevertheless, I do not to 5%? Would he also consider broadening that out in disagree with his point, because we must invest in local future to the wider hospitality sector, including to food economies and jobs throughout the UK. served in pubs and restaurants? That would encourage many more foreign visitors and provide an incentive Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con): for staycations in the domestic market. It would boost The hon. Lady will appreciate that my constituency coastal resorts, rural retreats and cities and towns attracts a huge amount of tourism, being right in the that have been hit hard by the economic downturn centre of London. I therefore have some sympathy with since 2008. a lot of what she says—a number of operators have The industry is significantly constrained by its lack of lobbied me on the matter. However, she recognised and price competitiveness. The Chancellor is not long back referred to the idea that the Treasury would potentially from Davos. While there, he may have learned that the lose money in the short term. She mentioned some World Economic Forum places the UK in 138th place specifics on which she would want immediate action— for price competitiveness for tourism, out of 140 countries. tourist attractions and accommodation—but does she The UK sits at the bottom of the international league not recognise that if we include other things, such as table, with businesses facing the challenge of the highest pub food, we are looking at a very uncertain tax break? rates in the world for VAT, air passenger duty and visa It could cost considerably more money at a difficult charges. The purpose of today’s debate is not to rehearse time for the public finances. Is it not therefore important the arguments on issues such as air passenger duty, but that she focuses specifically on measures that will have that placing shows that the Government’s lack of action the maximum benefit for the UK’s tourism industry, on VAT forms part of a broader lethargy when it comes without negative effects on the public purse? to supporting the tourism industry. The Government say that visitor numbers remain Ms Ritchie: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his strong, but I would suggest that that is in spite of the intervention. Although I understand that at this stage current pricing policy, rather than because of it. The the focus must be on accommodation and visitor attractions, UK’s balance of payments for tourist products has it would be wrong not to pursue the Treasury and the declined steeply in the past 15 years, making it clear that Minister to try to ensure that we get a better deal for tourism growth has not been what it could have been in our tourism industry and the wider population we recent years, and that we are not maximising the industry’s represent. enormous potential to deliver revenue and jobs. I would It might be helpful if I gave a little information from argue that the blame for that lies with the policy regime, the British Hospitality Association and the Cut Tourism which is holding back the industry’s potential. Any VAT campaign. The Government have asserted that argument from the Government based on the cost of a they cannot afford to take a loss on VAT income. It is VAT cut being prohibitive is highly dubious. worth pointing out, however, that the direct loss of VAT 195WH Tourism (VAT)11 FEBRUARY 2014 Tourism (VAT) 196WH incurred by a reduction for visitor accommodation and them. If we compare Ireland and the UK, we see a tale attractions would be £1.2 billion. Half of that loss of two Governments. The introduction of a 9% VAT would be made good within the first year via savings rate for tourism-related business and services made from social security benefits—more people would be 2013 the most successful year since the financial crisis employed—and increased tax yields, principally from for Irish tourism, with visitor numbers up 10% and employment-related taxes. The year 1 deficit would more than 9,000 jobs created. therefore be £645 million. Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): The Minister will know of Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD) rose— my passion for caravans, because there are so many in my constituency. I thank him for the work that he did Ms Ritchie: I will take a final intervention. last year to ensure that the proposed VAT rate on caravan sales was dropped from 20% to 5%, which has Stephen Lloyd: I thank the hon. Lady for giving way, saved the industry in my area and other parts of the and for securing this debate. Professor Blake said that UK. I ask him to consider a tourism-related VAT cut in he felt that a VAT cut would be exactly the same vein. Holidaymakers’ loyalty to the “one of the most efficient, if not the most efficient, means of UK, holiday businesses’ investment in the UK, and the generating GDP gains at low cost to the exchequer” passion for people felt by tourism staff, of whom I was that he had seen, under the Treasury’s own model. one for a decade, deserve to be rewarded with a sensible Furthermore, a week or so ago I had a comprehensive approach to this issue. meeting with VisitBritain and was reminded that such a reduction would create 80,000 new jobs. That would Ms Ritchie: Yes, that is what many of us are saying. make a significant difference and neutralise the cost to We are making a special plea to the Treasury for a the Treasury, exactly as the hon. Lady says. sensible approach that ensures growth in our local economies. Ms Ritchie: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his In conclusion, to take the case of Ireland, north and helpful intervention. It is worth pointing out that Professor south, the island is marketed as one area, but it has two Blake used the Treasury’s model for the research that different taxation regimes and two different rates of tax resulted in his recommendation that the focus of a VAT on tourism products, including both visitor attractions cut be on accommodation and visitor attractions. and accommodation. We believe that that needs to be I would like to make a little more progress. I would synchronised in some measure. I hope that the Minister like the Minister to clarify whether the Treasury accepts sees that there is a strong case for a VAT reduction for the figures resulting from its modelling, and whether it accommodation and attractions. It could subsequently contests that this measure would be revenue-neutral be widened to include food served in pubs and restaurants, and bring a long-term benefit, in terms of tourism which forms an integral part of our wider tourism numbers, tax revenue and job creation. If the Minister sector. That would send a strong message of support to has figures that dispute that, I think everybody would the tourism industry and, importantly, enable it to be grateful to see them. compete on a more even basis with other European I would like to set the issue in the EU context. Even if nations, which have almost unanimously introduced the Government concede that the cost would not be such measures. I know that the local tourism industry in excessive, they frequently argue that if such a cut was Northern Ireland—particularly in my constituency, where granted to the tourism sector, every other industry wonderful work is already being done—would welcome would be queuing up to get a similar cut. That is simply it with open arms. not the case. The EU has already established that the There are many MPs here from England, Scotland tourism industry is one of very few labour-intensive and Wales, and I know, having talked to some of them, services that would be eligible for a reduced rate of that they would also welcome such measures to pump-prime VAT. Strikingly, the vast majority of other EU member and grow the local economy, and enable the tourism states, which appreciate the importance of the industry, industry to invest in growth and jobs. This Government have exercised that right, but not the UK. As was talk a great deal about creating growth in the private pointed out in a report by Deloitte in 2011, the UK is sector, delivering jobs and supporting local businesses. the only country in the EU that does not apply a Here is a ready-made policy that could be implemented reduced rate of VAT to some part of its tourism sector. quickly and would deliver instant results. I hope that we The UK is one of only four of the EU’s 27 member have a full and frank debate about the issue, leading up states that do not take advantage of the reduced VAT to the Minister’s response and, hopefully, to some better rate on visitor accommodation, one of only 14 that news in the Budget report on 19 March. apply the full VAT rate to admissions to amusement Several hon. Members rose— parks, and one of only nine that apply the full rate to admissions to cultural attractions. Thirteen countries, Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): Order. I have including Ireland, also have a reduced VAT rate for some good news and some bad news. The bad news is restaurant meals. That is not a record of which the UK that I am afraid you are going to have to tear up your can be proud. We hear much from the Government 15-minute speeches. The good news is that I shall do my about how they are constrained and restrained by Brussels; level best to ensure that everyone gets to speak, but it here is a perfect example of where the Government have will only be for a limited period. With the permission of the right to be flexible, but they have so far refused to the Chairman of Ways and Means, I will impose a exercise that right. three-and-a-half-minute time limit, which will work only Other countries are a rich seam of information on the if there are no interventions. If there are no interventions benefits of a cut. It is no coincidence that after such and everyone sticks to the time limit, that should leave measures are implemented, countries tend to stick with 10 minutes each for Front-Bench speeches. 197WH Tourism (VAT)11 FEBRUARY 2014 Tourism (VAT) 198WH

9.54 am know that we are time-limited, so I will concentrate on some items local to my area and on general issues. As Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): I congratulate both speakers have said, VAT is a consumer tax that the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) on her impairs employment opportunities, so it is in many excellent speech. I do not intend to repeat it, but I will respects a tax on jobs. The Government claim, quite start by saying that the south-west is open for business. rightly, that they want to eradicate the deficit, but they Times are difficult for us at the moment. I send my have chosen the wrong tax to increase, because it has a condolences to all those in Somerset affected by the negative effect on jobs and the economy. In the United terrible flooding. In my own coastal constituency, many States, where there has been fiscal stimulus, the economy families and business have been severely affected. has grown much more quickly since the recession than What we need at the moment is help. We offer a in this country. fantastic range of opportunities for people who want to VAT has an impact on jobs directly and on the come to visit—if God made constituencies, he would tourism sector in particular, and not only the journals have designed Totnes—and I hope that people will visit, of the hospitality industry are saying that: The Daily but those businesses are struggling. I have heard from Telegraph, which is not a left-leaning paper by any numerous business owners in my constituency about stretch of the imagination, has said that VAT the effect of competition across Europe. As people decide where they will stay this summer, they are considering “is forcing many businesses into a tight corner.” things such as food prices in restaurants and the cost of VAT is hurting small businesses, and as a consequence, accommodation. Right now, our businesses are crying it is affecting the number of jobs that could be created. out for support from the Treasury. Can we consider The tax take is being unfairly concentrated on small seriously the impact that a 5% VAT rate would have, and medium-sized businesses. We are seeing a 19% particularly if applied to hotel rooms and visitor attractions? increase in VAT on small businesses at the same time as It is not just competition across national boundaries large corporations are experiencing a decrease in the tax that makes a difference; it is competition within the taken from them by the Treasury. We need to even out tourism sector. that situation. Perhaps the Minister will clarify the effect in his The suggestion made in this debate—including by the response. Riverboat and tourist rail companies currently hon. Member for South Down, who secured it—to are not hit by the higher rate of VAT because they count reduce VAT on tourism is a sensible one. Tourism is one as transport, but neighbouring attractions are. I am of the fastest growing global industries, and we live in a also told that there is concern across the industry about global time, as the hon. Member for Totnes suggested. the position of charities. We need a level playing field. I My area has a link with the Republic of Ireland, which am not suggesting for a minute that we should apply a is only two hours away, and many tourists who come to higher rate to other businesses; only that we should north-west Wales “do Europe” and they can compare make the playing field level across the sector. That the prices in Britain with those in other countries in the would be widely appreciated. European Union. That is true in my area—to the south I would like to mention the impact on employment. and west of us, Pembrokeshire is also close to the Yesterday, I met a large group of young people from my Republic of Ireland—and in the south-east of England, constituency, where youth unemployment is, sadly, an which is close to France and the rest of the continent. ongoing issue. The tourism sector is particularly important I represent Ynys Môn, the Isle of Anglesey, and the in providing opportunities for young people in my area is very proud of its tradition of drawing many constituency.We have a very low-wage economy.Numerous people from across the world. We need to help tourism businesses have written to me to say that they would like businesses. In the short time that I have left to speak, I to pay a living wage but are unable to do so at the will highlight the experience of one business, whose moment. Will the Minister consider what impact higher owners have written to me. At the moment, their business wages across this important sector would have on allowing is just below the VAT threshold. They want to invest in young people to stay in places such as south Devon? the local economy and local people, but they cannot do Will he consider the evidence? I have been contacted so because they are inhibited by the fact that they would this week by one very successful business saying that, face a 20% hike in VAT if they choose to go above the normally, it would employ far more people, but it has threshold. had to cut its staff from the 35 people that it usually VAT is a tax on jobs and it can be reduced. People employs on the payroll at this time of year to 27. Will he right across the United Kingdom want a fair and level confirm in his response that he has considered the playing field for our tourism and hospitality industries. impact that a VAT cut could have on that? Reducing VAT is a simple measure that could achieve Most importantly, I reiterate that the south-west is that level playing field. open for business. I encourage anyone listening to this I finish by saying to colleagues who represent areas debate to come see what we have to offer, but I would that are being flooded that the UK is a great destination also like the Government to do their bit by allowing and that it is open for business. The heart of the British businesses to offer lower prices, so that people will make Isles is Ynys Môn, the Isle of Anglesey, but the rest of the right decisions as the summer comes on. Britain would also benefit from a policy of reducing VAT. 9.58 am 10.1 am Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston). I, Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): It is a pleasure too, congratulate the hon. Member for South Down to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone, and (Ms Ritchie) on an excellent introductory speech. I I, too, congratulate the hon. Member for South Down 199WH Tourism (VAT)11 FEBRUARY 2014 Tourism (VAT) 200WH

(Ms Ritchie) on securing this debate. She spoke as a VAT to stimulate our local economies, and of course Member for Northern Ireland, but she also took a UK that is what we are all calling on the Government to perspective, and I will add a Welsh dimension to the undertake to do today. We do so in the expectation that debate. I suppose that the benefit of having a limit of that move would be costly in the short term but that, three and a half minutes to speak is that we will not further down the road, it would be cost-neutral, as well have huge opportunities to advertise the merits of our as being of huge benefit to the national economy and own constituencies, although both the hon. Members particularly to our local economies. for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) and for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) did a good job in advertising theirs. I look forward to going to Totnes to meet the members of the 10.5 am South Brent women’s institute in a week or so. Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): I Ceredigion speaks for itself: there are huge opportunities congratulate the hon. Member for South Down for growth in our tourism sector. I reiterate the comments (Ms Ritchie) on securing this debate and on her compelling that have been made about flooding. Many Members opening speech. will have seen on their TV screens the great Victorian promenade on our seafront in Aberystwyth being battered I am hugely cheered by the number of people who by the storms. That has caused significant damage, but have come out for this debate, which demonstrates the the message from me, as from others, is that businesses strength of feeling across the House about the importance in my area are open for business. I concur with what the of this measure. However, there is the sad downside that hon. and learned Member for Torridge and West Devon I cannot talk about quite as many of the wonders of (Mr Cox) said about the message that a reduction in Brighton and Hove as I had hoped to. Nevertheless, I VAT would send out to those businesses that have will highlight the testimonies that I have received from suffered recently. the Brighton and Hove chamber of commerce and from Brighton and Hove Tourism Alliance, both of which In Wales, of course, the responsibility for tourism is have told me—in no uncertain terms—what a big difference shared—there is a partnership between our National this measure would make to the local economy in Assembly Government and this place—but the taxation the city. regime across the UK directly impedes the development of the tourism sector. Two years ago, the British Hospitality There are not many win-wins in politics, but this Association commissioned Oxford Economics to produce measure is one of them. In fact, it is not even a win-win. a report that specifically examined the impact of VAT It is a win-win-win, in the sense that it is good for jobs on the tourist sector in Wales. The report was appropriately and for the economy, because over time it is likely to named, “Hospitality: driving local economies”and showed raise revenue for the Exchequer, and it addresses the how hospitality underpins communities. It highlighted competitive disadvantage that the UK suffers by comparison the importance of tourism and hospitality to jobs in with other parts of the European Union. In a few years’ Wales. time, we will look back to today and think, “Why on In Wales, more than 112,000 people are employed earth didn’t we move this whole debate sooner?” because directly, and another 56,000 people are employed indirectly, it is such an obvious issue to act on. It is like the famous in tourism and hospitality.In my constituency, 3,000 people £20 note on the street that people walk past because are employed in the sector, which is about 8% of total they cannot quite believe that it is there and such a employment in my constituency. If we take the big benefit. This measure would be a benefit; there is players out of our economy—our universities, our NHS a chance now to grasp this opportunity; and I hope that and our local government—tourism is at the top list of the Treasury is listening to this debate. employers. Many hon. Members have referred to jobs in tourism. As I say, 8% of people in Ceredigion are employed I will just underline one aspect of tourism: 44% of those in the sector, and as we heard from the hon. Member employed in the sector are under 30, compared with a for South Down, potentially another 80,000 jobs could national average of 24% for all sectors. Therefore, it is be created in tourism. Therefore, 10,000 jobs could be anticipated that a cut in VAT for tourism would particularly created in Wales, which would mean 2,000 new jobs in encourage the creation of employment opportunities my constituency. In turn, that would create opportunities for young people. That is incredibly important. for young people and keep people in our communities, Significantly, the tourism industry has expressed a rather than seeing them move away. The key phrase is willingness to consider entering into a collaborative giving the right support to the tourism sector, and I am agreement along the lines of the French contrat d’avenir, very much of the opinion that the sector would be which would include taking on long-term unemployed boosted if the 5% VAT rate was introduced. people as well as increased involvement in training and My hon. Friend the Member for Wells (Tessa Munt) product improvement. Again, there is a real opportunity talked about the importance of caravans in her constituency, to create more apprenticeships and to get more young and they are important in my constituency, too. I will people into jobs, so that they can move forward. quote the Prime Minister, who has said: Many hon. Members have talked about fiscal neutrality, “There are always good cases for cutting VAT on individual and there is strong evidence to support the case that this items. The leisure industry and the hotel industry make a very measure would be fiscally neutral. The key evidence for good argument”. the case to reduce VAT on attractions and accommodation Of course, he is right on that and the Government were comes, as other Members have said, from Professor right to take the action that they took on the VAT rate Adam Blake, the Treasury adviser, who has used the for static caravans. I and many other Members who are Treasury’s own economic model. As we have heard, he here in Westminster Hall today presented petitions on concludes that a reduction in VAT for accommodation that issue, making the point about the need to reduce and attractions would be 201WH Tourism (VAT)11 FEBRUARY 2014 Tourism (VAT) 202WH

[Caroline Lucas] 10%, but it is 20% here. Studies say that, if we cut VAT, operators would pass that on to the customer. We need “one of the most efficient, if not the most efficient, means of to try to compete on a level playing field with France generating GDP gains at low cost to the Exchequer”. and Spain, not on the one that we are encountering at The standard Treasury reply to correspondence on the moment. We must get visitors in from abroad. We this issue states that a cut in VAT would cost the must encourage staycations as well, keeping British Exchequer an estimated £1.2 billion a year. However, people here holidaying. We had a good summer last we have heard that Professor Blake found that, based year; let us hope we have another good one this year. on reasonable and plausible assumptions, the modelling I appreciate that we live in difficult times and that the exercise seems to support a general case that a reduction Treasury is not overdone with cash at the moment, and in VAT on tourism services I hear the talk about fiscal neutrality. However, I regard “would be fairly close to fiscal neutrality.” today almost as a start of a conversation. In an ideal He reports that the modelling shows substantially higher world, we would like to see this cut included in the GDP gains than others have predicted, peaking at about Budget, but money is tight. Let us start a conversation £4 billion a year. and look at this idea. I have seen various studies about We also heard earlier about the research that was its benefit to tourism and to the country. We should give undertaken by Deloitte and Tourism Respect, which this matter serious consideration. included case studies of tourism VAT changes in other I am sure that the Minister and his colleagues in the countries and detailed analysis of the price sensitivity Treasury are badgered repeatedly by colleagues who of UK tourism. The research found that cutting VAT want money for this, that and the other, but as a on tourism would deliver £2.6 billion in extra revenue to Member of Parliament representing a seat in a place the Treasury over a decade and create 80,000 jobs over that exists on huge tourism income, it is incumbent on two to three years. There would be a one-year shortfall me to say to the Treasury, “Give this priority among in fiscal income, which is projected to be £645 million other requests for cash and for money.” If we cut VAT net or £1.2 billion gross. However, there is a key question on tourist attractions and hotel accommodation, we that I would like to hear the Minister answer today: if it will get the benefit. were possible to find a way of bridging that gap— High Peak is a rural area and we have rural disadvantage. People talk about rural deprivation: we have poor Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): Order. broadband and things like that. A VAT cut will give the economy a boost to offset the difficulties that we face. I 10.9 am am glad that the Minister is here and I am sure that he is listening. On behalf of everybody in High Peak, I ask Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con): I thank the hon. him to look carefully at this proposal. If we cannot do it Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas). I am in this Budget, let us look at it sooner rather than later. pleased to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone, and I congratulate the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) on securing this debate. 10.12 am Three and a half minutes is not enough time for me to extol all the virtues of my High Peak constituency. Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): I am pleased to contribute Suffice it to say that many hon. Members have heard of to this important debate under your chairmanship, High Peak and of Buxton, Glossop and all our fantastic Mr Hollobone. I congratulate the hon. Member for attractions, such as the caves of Castleton. Tourism is a South Down (Ms Ritchie) on securing it. huge source of income for the High Peak. I would I have pursued this issue over the years. In fact, I first support a cut in VAT, which would boost the local asked a question about it in 2004. To my last question economy by bringing more tourists into High Peak and on the subject, in October, the Exchequer Secretary, across the country. The hon. Member for Westmorland who will respond to this debate, replied: and Lonsdale (Tim Farron), from the Lake district, “I have written to the Chairman of the Campaign for Reduced who is no longer in his place, may argue with me about Tourism VAT explaining that while there is no prospect of a VAT this, but the Peak district, which covers a lot of my cut for tourism, the Government is committed to a wide range of constituency, is the best national park in the country; it measures to support tourism.”—[Official Report, 8 October 2013; is the second most visited in the world, after Mount Vol. 568, c. 161W.] Fuji. Let us make it the most visited. That does not give me a great deal of confidence that he A cut in VAT would boost the economy and create will change his mind today, but, never being one to give jobs for local people, including young people. Many up, I will give it a try. young people work in tourism. One of my first jobs was In 24 of the current 28 European Union states, working as a waiter in a restaurant, often serving tourists. including Germany, France and Spain, there is a lower A VAT cut would help in that regard. rate of VAT for tourist accommodation. In fact, the Tourism is a competitive market. It is not just about UK has the second highest rate of VAT on hotel getting people from this country; it is about bringing accommodation, exceeded only by Denmark and Lithuania. international visitors into the country. It is part of my The rate in Luxembourg is 3%, and in Portugal, which job to get them up from London—up the M1 and the is, of course, a major tourist destination, it is only 6%. M6, and the west coast main line—into High Peak, to At a time when tourist businesses are fighting hard see what we have to offer. In an international marketplace, to retain their business against cheaper destinations, a cut in VAT would help. VAT charged on visitor these lower rates give many continental destinations a accommodation in France and Spain, our two biggest considerable advantage over businesses within the UK. competitors in Europe in terms of tourists, is charged at This is an important issue for Scotland, where tourism 203WH Tourism (VAT)11 FEBRUARY 2014 Tourism (VAT) 204WH contributes 4.9% to our GDP. Indeed, almost 10% of businesses have to cope with a VAT rate double, or even my constituents work in tourism or tourism-related more than double, the rate in Spain, Germany, France, businesses. Italy and the Republic of Ireland. Even the UK Government have not been averse to The UK is now one of only four EU states with no cutting VAT on selected tourism-related operations. In reduced VAT rate for tourism. In a price-sensitive the 2012 Budget, they cut the VAT chargeable on small international market, the high rate of VAT compared cable-suspended transport systems—ski lifts, to you with our competitors must be damaging our tourism and me, Mr Hollobone—which was a welcome change, industry. Reducing tourism VAT would lower prices, especially for ski-lift businesses. I am sure that it is attract more visitors to the UK and encourage businesses entirely coincidental that most of those businesses are to invest in Britain’s tourist attractions. in the constituency of the Chief Secretary to the Treasury. Of course, cutting any tax means reduced revenue in However, that illustrates what can be done and that the the short term, but surely the key is whether the cut will UK Government have done it in other areas. stimulate the economy to such an extent that the public The Irish 9% rate specifically applies to facilities used purse benefits more in the long run from the extra by those taking part in sporting activities and extends economic activity than is lost in the short term by the to green fees charged for golf and subscriptions charged tax cut. Stimulating the tourism sector will lead to more by non-member-owned golf clubs. Again, that puts people working—so fewer benefit payments and more them at an advantage in a competitive market against income tax and national insurance coming into the the wonderful golf clubs in Scotland and other parts of Treasury. the UK. In addition to the 9% rate, Ireland has for some Many detailed independent studies and analyses have time had a 13.5% rate on other services, including all found that reducing VAT on tourism to a rate of 5% short-term car hire and tour guide services. would stimulate both domestic and overseas demand, When the present UK Government published their leading to expansion of the tourism sector, the creation tourism strategy in 2011, they stated that they aimed to of many jobs and a fiscal return to the Treasury that generate 4 million extra visitors up to 2015 and that, would reverse the long-term trend of Britain’s worsening “The increase in overseas visitors would bring an extra £2 billion tourism balance of payments. worth of visitor spend and help to create 50,000 new jobs across We do not just have to rely on theoretical modelling. the country over that period, securing tourism’s place as one of The Isle of Man cut VAT on tourism to 5% 20 years ago Britain’s” and that was such a success that the Manx Government greatest have never even considered reversing it. Visitor numbers “industries.” to the Isle of Man show that, in the nine years before I struggle to see how the GREAT campaign and simplifying the cut, there was a sharp decline in tourism, but after visa applications for Chinese visitors, as mentioned in the VAT cut, visitor numbers recovered strongly and documents, could do that. A VAT cut would go a long have stayed high since then. way to helping hard-pressed tourism operators. Britain has a vibrant tourism industry. We have a Hon. Members have talked about Professor Blake’s wonderful product to sell, but common sense says that research and the amount of jobs and income that would we cannot compete if our VAT rate is double that of be created. I will not go over that again, but whatever our competitors. The experience of the Isle of Man and research says, a cut of VAT to tourism-related businesses the independent modelling both indicate that cutting would lead to increased employment and give a significant VAT on tourism will bring in more tax revenue than will boost to the rural economy in all parts of the UK. be lost. Theory and practice are in agreement. We need to give our tourism industries a boost and a I hope that the Government accept the findings of chance to fight back, rather than asking them to fight the independent reports and cut VAT on tourism. I with one hand tied behind their backs because we refuse know that the Minister cannot pre-empt the Budget by to match the change in VAT in the EU. making an announcement today, but I expect him to say in his winding-up speech that the Treasury is taking the campaign seriously and will study carefully the findings Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): Order. of the independent reports and respond to them.

10.16 am 10.19 am Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): I congratulate Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) on hon. Members for South Down (Ms Ritchie), and for securing the debate. Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas), on having joined I am fortunate to represent the beautiful constituency me in securing this debate. of Argyll and Bute. The scenery is beautiful, but the Members will not be surprised to hear that I am economy is fragile. “You can’t eat the scenery”, as the unashamedly vocal about the beauties of my constituency, old saying goes, but we can sell the scenery to visitors, and I truly believe that I represent the most breathtaking and that is where tourism plays such a vital role. Tourism constituency in the whole United Kingdom. I have provides jobs in remote areas where alternative employment previously spoken of the potential for tourism in Northern would be difficult to find. It is a labour-intensive industry, Ireland that has yet to be explored, and if that potential so much of the spend goes straight into jobs. This is a were to be exposed to the rest of the world, the entire very competitive international industry. With many people United Kingdom would benefit. The first part of my struggling to make ends meet, price is an important three-and-a-half minute contribution is on the question factor in their choice of holiday, and Britain’s tourism of how we go about that task. 205WH Tourism (VAT)11 FEBRUARY 2014 Tourism (VAT) 206WH

[Jim Shannon] said that the Treasury would dismiss any suggestion of a reduction in VAT because anything that contributes, The Northern Ireland issue is highlighted and exposed even in the short term, to an increase in the deficit is a by the fact that we border the Republic of Ireland. The threat to interest rates. The Treasury therefore dismissed industry in Northern Ireland is linked to tourism in the such a reduction out of hand, but times have changed. Republic of Ireland, so the discrepancy in VAT rates is We have heard much about the Deloitte survey and noticeable. VAT in the Republic of Ireland has been about Professor Blake’s use of the Treasury’s model. We reduced for hotel accommodation since 1986. In 2011, have a much enhanced and increased coalition of the VAT reduction was extended to cover out-of-home stakeholders and interests, which have put compelling meals. Take those two things together and Northern evidence before all of us and, I think, before the Treasury. Ireland—and, indeed, the United Kingdom—is 11% In the past few weeks we have seen a huge climatic behind the Republic of Ireland’s VAT rate. That puts impact on coastal communities such as mine, and on the United Kingdom, and especially Northern Ireland, inland communities, and that has altered the outlook on an uneven keel. somewhat for tourism businesses in those areas. The Northern Ireland Hotels Federation gives figures I will quickly refer to a fairly formal letter that the that justify a VAT reduction. The federation indicates Prime Minister wrote to the late John Cook, one of the that 14,900 jobs would be created by reducing VAT. three founding fathers of Bourne Leisure, the big holiday Gross value added would increase by £155 million, and company, in October 2010. The little bit in the Prime wages would increase by £64 million to £225 million by Minister’s own handwriting at the bottom is interesting: 2020. Those figures indicate a clear win-win-win, because “The figures for other EU countries are—as you say—striking. as the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion, said, a VAT But the fiscal challenge right now is so bad that it will be tough to reduction would mean more jobs, more money in people’s persuade HMT, as you say, to accept short term loss for medium pockets, and a reduction in benefits paid to the unemployed. term gain. It is the early years where the need for deficit reduction That can clearly be done. The Republic of Ireland is so great.” produced 6,500 new jobs and saved 31,000 jobs, which Things have changed since October 2010, and I am not indicates the seriousness of our position. We are one of sure that the Treasury is able to argue with the force that only four countries in Europe that are not availing it did then that such measures should be resisted. The themselves of a reduced VAT rate. The VAT rate on Prime Minister, I thought, left the door open in his hotels is 7% in Germany and 10% in France, and that letter to Bourne Leisure and John Cook: a VAT reduction encourages UK and EU residents to holiday in those is not beyond the Treasury’s grip when economic conditions countries. It is time that we did something about that. improve. Perhaps the Minister will indicate what he hopes to do. Not for the first time, it is the Treasury versus everyone The industry is anxious to find the best way to use a else, including people in the tourism industry represented VAT cut for the benefit of the Treasury and the UK as a here, and many businesses dotted around various whole, for example by ensuring that at least half the cut constituencies, represented here or not. It cannot be is passed on in lower prices, with the rest used for completely true that the Treasury is always right and the increased staff wages, training, employment and increased experts in the industry are always wrong. The circumstances investment; that would be similar to what the French have changed. They changed recently because of the Government did with their restaurant industry. weather, but they have changed over a longer period Time is against me, but others will join me in proving because of improved economic conditions, and because beyond reasonable doubt that a short-term investment of the evidence put before us by experts in the field. I in the tourism industry will yield long-term dividends, hope that the Treasury will take those changing as has been proved in Europe and can be shown here, if circumstances into account. For the benefit of those in the chance is taken. Some might ask, “How can we do the tourism industry, whose representatives are here to that?” I would simply tell them to book a flight to make the case, the Treasury should not dismiss these Belfast and take the 20-minute journey to my constituency. matters out of hand, as it did quite reasonably three or They will see within seconds why I believe that, with a four years ago. little bit of help and support, tourism can and will thrive. There is an opportunity for us all to take our 10.26 am place on the world tourism stage and to allow others to Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab): It is a pleasure to enjoy what we have: great lodgings, fantastic scenery, serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. I commend wonderful shopping, world-class golf, hotels, salons, the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) on her historical journeys and, most importantly, our unique powerful presentation. Many of the points I wish to Northern Irish hospitality, which draws people and make have already been raised, so I will concentrate on makes them feel part of the family. It is not for nothing constructive reinforcement, rather than on unnecessary that we are called the happiest people in the United duplication. I hope hon. Members are able to distinguish Kingdom. A holiday in Northern Ireland will refresh between the two. and renew. The Minister has a chance to enhance that potential, and I hope that he will take it. Commendably, the Prime Minister has been quoted as saying: “There are always good cases for cutting VAT on individual 10.23 am items. The leisure industry and the hotel industry make a very Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South good argument.” Pembrokeshire) (Con): About two years ago, I spoke to I would go further: there is a compelling case. Indeed, it a Treasury Minister about this issue. He was a much is extremely ironic that the Prime Minister, who wants more junior Treasury Minister than the one here today, to negotiate flexibility within the EU and to reduce but none the less he was a Treasury Minister. He simply bureaucratic orthodoxy, has failed to capitalise on one 207WH Tourism (VAT)11 FEBRUARY 2014 Tourism (VAT) 208WH of the key areas on which there is considerable flexibility— at how to help the tourism industry. On the one hand, the VAT charges on tourism, particularly on the hotel there is rhetoric from the Prime Minister and senior and leisure industries. Indeed, it is shocking that we are members of the Government saying that the UK should at such a disadvantage compared with other European be the most competitive economy in the world, and woe countries, as was highlighted by a number of speakers, betide any suggestion that we increase tax rates, lest that when the Government have the power to reduce VAT. It scare off investment; but on the other hand, there is a is all the more disturbing that a party that espouses the twisted adherence to a particular idea of credibility that virtues of innovation, enterprise, grasping opportunity insists that we do not want to minimise the burden on and promoting sustainable growth in business has so far businesses and consumers. failed to reduce VAT. UK tourism is almost at the I specifically mention credibility because it has been bottom of the league table of international the bulwark of the Government’s argument against competitiveness—we are 138th out of 140—yet it is our VAT cuts. That argument misses a vital point, because economy’s 6th largest export earner. credibility is not particularly quantifiable and is decidedly The Chancellor pleads repeatedly for removing barriers context-specific. One could argue that the inconsistencies to growth and for promoting investment. The conservative in the Government’s fiscal approach undermine economic estimates of an independent and reputable academic confidence and credibility more than the state of the highlight the potential to boost GDP by £4 billion a figures produced by the Treasury. If the Government year, to create 80,000-plus jobs and to improve chose to, they could incorporate VAT cuts into a narrative professionalism in the industry. Professor Blake confirms of growth, prosperity, stability and a competitive economy. that such an initiative would be fiscally neutral, so what Those cuts can and should be a credible and legitimate on earth is holding the Chancellor back? The tourism approach. We have long heard the message that we have industry feels that it has to operate with one hand tied structural economic problems that require long-term behind its back, with declining opportunities for sustainable solutions. It is not as if a VAT reduction would be a growth. fiscal disaster. What we lost in VAT revenues would be It is economic madness not to reverse the long-term regained within a few years by greater income tax trend of decline in the UK’s tourism balance of payments. revenue from the estimated 200,000 jobs that the reduction We are clearly not operating on a level playing field. My would create, and significant savings on out-of-work home county of Fife is the Mecca of world golf, yet and low-wage benefits. tourist numbers are declining. In my neck of the woods I have several tourism businesses in my Torbay in Glenrothes, the Balbirnie House hotel, a small country constituency, and the tourist trade represents the biggest house hotel that achieves the highest standards of excellence contributor to the private sector locally. We have some and employs more than 100 people, is fleeced for more of the toughest economic conditions in the UK, with than £800,000 in tax and rates. That is more than £8,000 the associated social ills of poor health and housing, per employee, and it is only through innovative marketing, high rates of teenage pregnancy and drug dependency, outstanding quality of service and tenacity in the face low educational achievement and aspiration, and so on. of adversity that the hotel has been able to consolidate Driving local economic investment is the only way out. its business. Thankfully, the Government have realised one part of We are clearly not on a level playing field, so a that and are investing locally in business infrastructure, marked reduction in VAT on UK tourism is a no-brainer, such as the Kingskerswell bypass, but we need to do to use a colloquial expression. I urge the Chancellor to more. heed the powerful arguments presented in this debate The main thing local businesses point out to me is and reduce VAT on tourism. That would attract foreign that the UK is one of only four EU members not to investment and domestic tourists, create employment, exercise its discretion somewhere within tourism and encourage much-needed investment, promote sustainable leisure spending. We already have high costs compared growth and improve further standards in the industry. with much of Europe, and that unnecessarily harms He must know that makes sense. businesses when they try to attract visitors. South-west England has a great deal to offer, but when it is cheaper to visit just about any other country in Europe, how can 10.29 am we even start being the most competitive in the global Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD): I congratulate the race? hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) on securing this debate. I repeat the message that the far south-west 10.33 am is open for business, particularly the spectacular English riviera. People might bag a bargain if they book their Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): I thank the summer holiday there now, and I am sure that the hon. hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) for her Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) and I will be there speech on the impact of VAT on tourism. I take issue to welcome them, if we are free. with what she and my hon. Friend the Member for This is the fourth debate in which I have raised this Strangford (Jim Shannon) said, because I look across issue, so it is not new. We have seen that Ireland, France the Belfast lough to their constituencies, which are and many other countries have successfully used VAT shrouded in mist and doused in rain, from the stunning reductions as a stimulus for tourism, which has been coastline and glens of Antrim, which are bathed in disproportionately affected by the recession, both overseas sunshine. and here. There is no doubt but that such a reduction I understand the Minister’s dilemma. He is being would help areas, especially coastal towns, that have battered in all directions by people pleading special particularly weak local economies. It is therefore puzzling cases. As he contemplates this issue, he should think of that the Government have so strongly ruled out looking one thing: what principles have the Government and 209WH Tourism (VAT)11 FEBRUARY 2014 Tourism (VAT) 210WH

[Sammy Wilson] to choose the UK, and London in particular, as a destination of choice are all discussed in our report, but the Chancellor laid down on the tax regime? The first I highlight the impact of the delegate fee for visitors. is that tax changes should be judged by their impact on That is critical when choosing whether to come to this growth and efficiency. As the Minister contemplates country for events, and our VAT position puts us at a that, I draw three facts to his attention. First, competitive disadvantage. The league tables show that 19 Governments across Europe have reduced VAT on the UK is one of the top 10 countries for international tourism, and some of them have done that not when meetings, but we are dwarfed by countries where VAT is fiscal times were good, but when they were difficult. outside the scope of being reclaimed. That reclaiming France in 2009, Germany in 2010 and the Irish Republic adds to the cost of visitors coming to this country. The in 2011 all did that when facing the same problems as USA, Japan and Singapore all dwarf us, as do other the Minister. They made a judgment that, because of European countries that have lower VAT rates. the tax elasticity in demand for tourism, there were Whether the industry thrives or survives is not just benefits, and that has proved to be the case. Some down to VAT, but VAT influences decisions on where to 28,200 new jobs have been created in France, with hold events. I urge the Minister to understand that the 15,000 businesses saved. Tourism in the Irish Republic impact both on the business events industry delegate is up 16%. price, which will influence choice, and on the subsequent Secondly, I do not want to go into the issue of the leisure prices represent significant leverage in the pursuit model, which has been referred to time and again, but of the industry’s goal of £48 billion in attendee expenditure that model shows that a reduction in VAT on by 2020. I commend the report to the Minister; in it, he accommodation and tourist attractions would be four will see the argument set out in great detail. times more efficient at generating GDP increases than the 2p reduction in corporation tax that the Government have announced. Extending that VAT reduction to food 10.40 am would be three times more efficient at generating GDP than the corporation tax reduction. Shabana Mahmood (Birmingham, Ladywood) (Lab): Thirdly, to be parochial, the estimates for the Northern I congratulate the hon. Member for South Down Ireland economy show that a VAT reduction could (Ms Ritchie) and the hon. Members for Brighton, Pavilion result in 10,000 new jobs in the tourism industry, a 50% (Caroline Lucas) and for Strangford (Jim Shannon) on increase in tourism revenue and a 40% increase in the securing the debate. It has been well attended, as proven number of hotel industry jobs. All those jobs would be by the time limit on speeches. We have had some brilliant available to young people and would help deal with contributions, some of which were rather fast-paced as youth unemployment. The reduction would also help people struggled with the time constraints. The debate increase investment in hotels. One hotel owner told me has served as an important reminder of the importance that they take £500,000 a year, and a 15% reduction in of tourism to UK plc, and we heard some compelling VAT would give them £75,000 to invest in facilities and arguments in favour of supporting the tourism sector to train and take on new staff. I hope that the Government and for reducing VAT to improve the sector’s international will listen to those arguments. competitiveness. The hon. Member for South Down opened the debate 10.36 am with a powerful speech. Her comparison of the UK and the Republic of Ireland was particularly forceful, and Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): I draw Members’ she spoke impressively on the potential impact on youth attention to my declaration in the Register of Members’ unemployment, given the relative youth of those employed Financial Interests. I am also the chair of the all-party by the tourism sector—a point that was also expressed group on the UK events industry. I commend our by the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion. A connected report on the international competitiveness of the UK point was made about low pay in the tourism sector, so events industry to the Minister and to Members. That the work force being relatively young is not the only report is relevant to today’s debate, because I want to issue. I am sure that all hon. Members will agree that draw a distinction between business tourism and leisure tackling low pay in the sector is important not only for tourism. Business sector tourism is defined as conferences, individuals who want to be paid more, but for the meetings, exhibitions, trade shows, corporate hospitality, growth of the economy overall. music industry festivals and sports events, and that sector is worth £36 billion per annum to the UK economy. The hon. Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) made The industry forecasts that that will rise to £48 billion me smile when she said that, if God were designing the by 2020. It is worth noting that business visitors to the best constituency, he would create Totnes. I would of UK spend £131 a day on average, which is 72% more course argue strongly in favour of Birmingham, Ladywood. than leisure visitors. Visitors from overseas spend nearly I was a little worried after her speech that every contribution 200% more on business trips, so the issue applies as would turn into a PR pitch for individual constituencies. much to the business sector as to the leisure sector. One or two Members did indulge in that, so we will have The Minister will be interested to note that there are to agree to disagree about the relative merits of the more than 25,000 businesses in the sector, including places that we represent. organisers, venues, suppliers and direct marketing The hon. Lady also expressed solidarity and support organisations, representing roughly half a million full-time for those struggling with the floods, and I join her in jobs. The international inbound event industry not only expressing that sentiment. People are suffering desperately, advertises Britain as a place fit to do business with in and we must work together to get them the help that the permanent long term, but drives additional leisure they need and to tackle the long-term issues that have tourism traffic. The many varied items that bring people led to the problems. 211WH Tourism (VAT)11 FEBRUARY 2014 Tourism (VAT) 212WH

The hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) said Although I cannot commit to the VAT cut that the that his constituency is open for business, but the country campaign calls for, I can commit to engaging in the should also be viewed as such. We are a favoured conversation and working with the shadow Business, destination for tourists and rank as the seventh most-visited Innovation and Skills, Culture, Media and Sport and country in the world. We hold a unique position in Treasury teams to examine what else we can do to terms of culture, heritage and language that makes us a support the industry and to ensure that it plays its full destination of choice. Regardless of our position on part in getting us towards sustained economic growth. VAT and expense, we are still well visited, and we Tourism is one of the UK’s biggest employers. The should continue to reinforce that at every opportunity. sector provides 9% of total jobs and contributes £134 billion I will require photographic proof from the hon. Member to the economy, with revenue increasing by £9 billion for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) that there is sunshine last year. As I said earlier, we are the seventh most-visited in his constituency given the horrible weather that we country in the world. It is important that we continue to are experiencing at the moment. engage in the conversation and with the campaign to ensure that we support this vital industry as much as I am interested in the all-party parliamentary group possible. for the UK events industry’s report, which was mentioned by the hon. Member for Enfield North (Nick de Bois), One or two Members touched on this topic, but we who is the group’s chair, and the distinction between have not discussed in detail immigration policy and leisure and business visitors. I will discuss the matter whether we make ourselves as easy to visit as other later in my speech. countries. The visitor visa regime has well-documented concerns, for example. On this subject, I speak not only I will disappoint hon. Members today by not making as a shadow Treasury Minister, but as a former shadow a spending commitment to reduce VAT for the tourism universities and science spokeswoman. Higher education sector. I apologise for that, but I would get into a lot of is our seventh largest export industry, and there is trouble if I did. I acknowledge the passionate views of tension between the economic benefits, which are similar Members present and the strong arguments of the Cut to those of tourism, and effective immigration control. Tourism Vat campaign, but the Opposition’s stance is Our regime for visa applications, fees and monitoring that an incoming Labour Government in 2015 will to avoid over-staying is not the simplest. There is particular inherit a difficult financial situation. Deficit reduction tension with the countries that we deem to be at risk, alone does not make for a successful economic policy, from where we may expect people with visitor visas to but it is a necessary and important part of it. visit with the intention of over-staying. Countries that have historically been placed in that group, such as Caroline Lucas: I thank the hon. Lady for giving way, India, can actually be those from which we benefit but does she not accept what several hon. Members greatly. In tourism, for example, growing numbers of have said: precisely at a time of economic difficulty, we genuine visitors want to come to this country, spend should be investing to get people into jobs and thus their money and help to boost our economy, while paying taxes to the Revenue? The idea that VAT should having a great time. It is important to resolve that not be cut because we are in a time of economic tension, so that those growth sectors do not suffer difficulty indicates a misreading of the situation. unnecessarily and so that we get the maximum benefit from our tourism policy. Shabana Mahmood: I am grateful for the hon. Lady’s We cannot agree now to the cut that has been called intervention, and I will in a moment explain why I for by campaigners and hon. Members present for the cannot quite go as far as she would perhaps like. debate; however, we are committed to working closely Although we are determined to build a fairer society with the sector. We will take seriously other help for the and to deliver the long-term changes that our economy sector that does not have cost implications, including needs, including rebalancing, of which the tourism sector immigration changes. could and should play an important part, we must ensure that the sums add up. We will therefore not be 10.50 am able to reverse all the cuts and tax rises that this Government The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David have pushed through to date, but we have had well- Gauke): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, documented disagreements with the Government Mr Hollobone. I congratulate the hon. Member for over VAT. South Down (Ms Ritchie) on securing the debate and Although we are too far away from the general election putting her case so strongly and on the fact that the to make detailed commitments across all the areas that debate is so well attended. Her constituency is known as may appear in our manifesto, we know now that we will one of the most beautiful in the United Kingdom, but I face difficult choices. The Government’s day-to-day appreciate the strong case made by several other hon. spending plans for 2015-16 will be our starting point, Members for their constituencies to be on that list. In and we will not borrow any more for such spending. the interest of time, I shall not attempt to comment on Any changes to the current spending plans for that year each of those areas, but I can reassure hon. Members must and will be fully funded. That is not only a that the Government appreciate the value and importance statement of our current economic policy, but an invitation of the tourism sector. Ministers from the Treasury and to those involved in the VAT campaign perhaps to the Department for Culture, Media and Sport have present some proposals that might work under the tests been working closely with the industry to increase inbound that we have set for policies come 2015, and I can and domestic tourism. confirm that my hon. Friends the Members for Barnsley VAT is governed by EU law, which strictly limits Central (Dan Jarvis) and for Eltham (Clive Efford) are reliefs. However, as hon. Members have pointed out, already working closely with the tourism sector. VAT law allows member states to implement certain 213WH Tourism (VAT)11 FEBRUARY 2014 Tourism (VAT) 214WH

[Mr David Gauke] in a credible position. It would entail a risk to the recovery. As all hon. Members know, the Government’s reduced rates of VAT, which are listed in annex III of priority is to tackle the record budget deficit decisively the VAT directive, at the discretion of the member but fairly and to restore confidence in the economy and states. Two of the reliefs are support the economic recovery. The conclusion that we “accommodation provided in hotels and similar establishments, reached, therefore, which I announced in Parliament including the provision of holiday accommodation and the letting last year, is that a VAT cut would not produce sufficient of places on camping or caravan sites;” economic growth to outweigh the revenue shortfall. I and restaurant and catering services, excluding alcoholic have not seen any new evidence since then that has led drinks. As several hon. Members have pointed out, me to revisit that conclusion, so, at present, the Government when the list of optional reduced rates of VAT entered have no plans to introduce a VAT cut for the sector. into force in 2006, the UK opted not to implement those two reliefs and has maintained that position since. Several other member states have chosen to implement Ms Ritchie: The Minister will be aware of the report a reduced rate of VAT on tourism, but the Government of Professor Adam Blake, who I understand is a Treasury have yet to find any evidence of a causal link between adviser, and who used the Government’s computable VAT rates and tourism activity. Comparisons with other general equilibrium model and maintained that it would countries tend not to take into account the significant be possible for a reduction in VAT on tourism to end up VAT reliefs that the UK provides for cultural attractions fiscally neutral. Has the Minister a comment to make and public transport, or the other tourist taxes that on that, and did he talk to Professor Blake about the other member states choose to levy. In addition to the report and to Deloitte? sector-specific reliefs, the UK’s VAT registration threshold is the highest in the EU. Therefore, many tourist attractions do not have to charge any VAT to their customers. It is Mr Gauke: I think that I have touched on that, but I interesting to note that France, which is often the country want to emphasise that the figures produced by the quoted as reducing the rate and reaping the rewards, industry and Professor Blake represent independent put its VAT rate on restaurant services up from 7% to research; the Treasury has engaged with the campaign 10% in January. Also, many businesses in the tourism and has concluded that VAT cuts would lead to a sector are small businesses and will benefit from the significant revenue shortfall. I could go into more detail £2,000 cut in national insurance contributions, the about the modelling, but because of the time I will not. employment allowance, that will come into effect in We do not accept the conclusions that the hon. Lady April. refers to. As I mentioned, Treasury and DCMS Ministers have A more targeted VAT cut, on a regional basis, is not discussed the Cut Tourism VAT campaign, and I have possible under EU VAT law, because a single rate of met campaigners and engaged in correspondence with VAT for a particular good or service must apply throughout them about the report mentioned by the hon. Member a member state. A reduced rate for Northern Ireland is for South Down, among other things. The campaign’s not possible, and it is also not possible to distinguish analysis assumes that the revenue shortfall associated between tourists, locals and people on business who use with a VAT cut should be met by increasing Government a restaurant or hotel. However, I reassure hon. Members borrowing, but the latest figures from the Office for that we recognise the importance of the tourism industry National Statistics suggest that reducing VAT to 5% for and remain committed to a wide range of measures to all catering services provided by restaurants, pubs, cafes support the sector. and canteens would cost the Exchequer between £9 billion and £10 billion a year. Cutting VAT to 5% for Since 2011-12, we have put £37 million into the accommodation would cost the Exchequer an estimated tourism pillar of the GREAT campaign, which in 2012-13 £2 billion a year. I do not have to remind hon. Members generated a return of more than 400,000 visits to the that those costs would have to be met by increasing target cities; those visits brought in £200 million, which other taxes, which would be likely to affect growth and is a return of 8:1 on the investment. Between 2011 and jobs adversely elsewhere in the economy, by reducing 2015, we are spending £50 million on a tactical marketing spending or by increases in borrowing. That would be campaign via VisitBritain, with a further £50 million contrary to the Government’s long-term economic plan match-funded by the private sector to market what the and risk raising interest rates, undermining the recovery UK has to offer overseas. Between 2011-12 and 2014-15, and adversely affecting families and small businesses. we are spending £10 million on a campaign to encourage domestic tourism, which has already generated about Jim Shannon: Many hon. Members spoke in the £300 million in additional spending. There are also debate about the jobs that could be created; the figure good results in Northern Ireland, where in the 12 months for Northern Ireland was almost 15,000. Those jobs to September there was an 8% increase in the number of would result in taxes being paid and people coming off visits compared with the previous 12 months. benefits. What weight has the Minister given to that part of the equation, in the figures he has just outlined? We are taking action to help the tourism industry, but a cut in VAT would be expensive and would create a Mr Gauke: I reiterate that funding the cut by additional revenue shortfall. That would put the Government’s borrowing would be contrary to our long-term economic economic credibility and long-term economic plan plan to get the deficit down and put our public finances at risk. 215WH 11 FEBRUARY 2014 Medical Records (Confidentiality) 216WH

Medical Records (Confidentiality) Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): Importantly, the fear is not only of professional hacking, 11 am but of amateur hacking, which can break into major databases. The problem about the medical database is Mr George Mudie (Leeds East) (Lab): It is a pleasure that someone’s medical data are almost as strong as a to hold this debate under your distinguished chairmanship, fingerprint. If people were looking for me, for example, Mr Hollobone. I have five broken noses on my medical record, which The debate deals with one of the most accepted and probably reduces the numbers that they are looking at appreciated relationships, which is that between patients from 60 million to about 100; they could also probably and their doctor, with the knowledge that whatever work out my age, if that is removed, from when I had information is recorded by the GP is confidential and my diphtheria jab and various other early jabs. It is still kept securely in the medical records held by the practice. possible to reverse engineer from so-called anonymised Next month, that will change. Under controversial data. In the States, that was done with an anonymised legislation passed in 2012, family doctors will be required data system—the record of the Governor of Massachusetts to pass to a new national database created by NHS was picked out by an academic, to demonstrate how England all the medical records of the patients in that weak such systems are. practice. The personal GP record may be added to by any Mr Mudie: I read with interest about the right hon. other social care organisation that deals with the patient Gentleman’s unfortunate nose. He makes an important and with hospital records that exist for an individual. point. This is being done, according to NHS England, to improve the delivery of health care to benefit researchers My point is that there will eventually be a breach of inside and outside the national health service. I have no security. It is inevitable, given the size of the database reason to suggest that this move will not lead to and the information stored in it. The human cost to the improvements in health care, and, no doubt, the Minister patient whose identity and medical history are made will deal with that matter more fully. public is potentially disastrous. Careers could be ended, I have sought the debate for two main reasons. My jobs lost, insurance refused and relationships destroyed first concern is shared by many people, including some if sensitive medical facts are made public or used by present in the Chamber: the security dangers of bringing private firms, other people or, indeed, the media. all such personal data together in one huge national database. The second reason is my dismay and even Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the anger at the deliberate manner in which the public have hon. Gentleman on bringing this matter to the House been deprived of consultation and information on what for consideration. He said rightly that there is a medical could be, and I think will be, a significant threat to their need to have some of the information, but many patients right of privacy in respect of their medical records. fear that their confidentiality could be taken over by On the first threat, to security, we are assured by money-making ventures from those involved in the NHS England that the information process. Instead of an opt-out system, should there not “will be stored…in a secure environment with the highest standards be an opt-in system, whereby the GP and the patient get of information governance and technical expertise to protect the together and discuss confidentiality and an understanding data.” of the system before anything happens? If patients are reassured by that statement, the US Government must have lower standards. For example, Angela Merkel, the German Chancellor, learned about Mr Mudie: The hon. Gentleman makes an important the USA hacking her personal phone from sources point, which I will cover when discussing the second inside the US. A young lad from Glasgow was extradited issue that I identified. At the moment, I am dealing with to the USA in the past 19 months to face charges, security, but I will come on to the opt-out arrangements, because from his Govan bedroom he had breached which are far from satisfactory. military systems in the US. This weekend, closer to A further reason for concern is that the information home, Barclays bank admitted that delicate, sensitive will not be available for analysis and research in the and important financial details of 35,000 of its customers national health service alone, but will be made available had been stolen. to non-NHS organisations. A Library note describes an interesting situation in which, without the consent of Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): Does the individuals, the information given can identify patients: hon. Gentleman believe, as I do, that the single most “In most cases, researchers can carry out their studies using important point, which I hope that he will elaborate for information that does not identify you. Occasionally, however, us, is whether the identities of the people whose data are medical researchers need to use information that does identify being stored are also being stored? If they are being you. Only researchers who have obtained your permission or who stored, I am entirely with him; if they are not and only have been granted special approval are allowed to access your data without identity are being stored, there might be identifiable data… The CAG approves requests where it is not more to be said for the scheme. I am interested to know possible to use information that does not identify you and it is not what he has to say. possible to ask you. There are a variety of reasons why it might not be possible to ask people; for example, where there are Mr Mudie: That is an important intervention, and I extremely large numbers of patients”— will deal with that, because it gets to the nub of the so it is okay if researchers pinch a lot of patient information matter. Health care improved, fine, but there must be a and identify the patients, but such patients would have balance with the right of individuals to have their no come-back, because that is reasonable in the eyes of privacy. I will deal with that. the national health service. 217WH Medical Records (Confidentiality)11 FEBRUARY 2014 Medical Records (Confidentiality) 218WH

[Mr Mudie] have been written, miraculously, by a dead author—Enid Blyton. It is an insult to the general public. Opting out Another interesting but concerning document includes is not actually spelled out within the leaflet. NHS a diagram helpfully provided by the Information England is demanding that people go to their doctor’s Commissioner that describes three different levels of surgery, discuss the matter with a doctor or practice anonymity: first, in the public domain, no information— manager and then give their decision on opting out. totally anonymous; secondly, for approved organisations, The House knows how busy doctors are and how busy whether NHS or outside organisations given permission, their surgeries are. Is somebody going to take a day off potential identifiable data; finally, for organisations that work to go and see their doctor not because they are ill have a legal basis, such as the police, all the data—nothing but because they want to discuss opting out? It is not is hidden. Interestingly enough, the police will not have sensible. to do what they have to do now, which is to get a court I suggest that NHS England is not serious about order to get the information; they will have an automatic involving and empowering the general public. That is right to it. the second reason why real questions should be asked NHS England has explained that information given about this plan. The leaflet does not make the point that to private researchers will be anonymised before release, there are two opt-out options, one for giving the information but that is undermined by its statement that the standard out within the health service and one for giving it out of anonymity it is using requires it to outside the health service, or that people can obtain a “ensure that, as far as it is reasonably practicable to do so, form, fill that in and send it in to a practice. information published does not identify individuals.” I am taking up time and I know that a colleague That is hardly reassuring. wants to speak. I want the Minister to take his lead from the Information Commissioner and postpone the All those instances could be dismissed as speculation, introduction of the scheme to allow further consultation but we should be aware that NHS England and the and discussion about whether there should be an opt-in Government see the whole exercise as an opportunity or an opt-out, about what information is being shared for the UK to become a major player in medical research, and about the security of that information. If the with both the NHS and the private sector seeing strong medical records of members of the public are going to economic growth and income from the use of the data. I be given out, they should have knowledge of that and forgot to mention that in the database will be included should have had the opportunity to opt out. people’s national health service number, postcode, date of birth, gender and ethnicity. With all that information— particularly the postcode—it will be fairly easy to identify 11.15 am someone. George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con): I congratulate I turn now to the question of permission. This genuinely the hon. Member for Leeds East (Mr Mudie) on raising makes me very cross. The handover from GPs will take this issue for a debate that I think merits a bigger place in March—one month’s time—and after three attendance. I hope that the subject will be debated months, depending on opt-out numbers, 100% of records subsequently on the Floor of the House. will be on the national database. That should have This is an important issue. We have seen in recent happened already, but the Information Commissioner months and years in the House that data sit at the heart stopped the process late last year because the NHS had of so much of the transparency revolution that is taking not consulted or, in the commissioner’s view, given place in health care, not least in the Francis report, enough information to the public. The commissioner which was indeed in part driven by a revolution in ordered the NHS to postpone the process and take transparency, with outcomes data revealing differences steps to give more information on both what was happening in outcomes across the UK. That has highlighted that, and the right to opt out. It has been given £2 million to within our precious and beloved NHS, there is huge do so, but it is far from clear that it is doing it willingly—it variability in standards and outputs. The genie is out of is doing it in bad grace. the bottle, in terms of the public interest in the power of I should mention the summary care record, another those data to drive both transparency on outcomes and IT exercise that was carried out five or six years ago, patient empowerment—a theme that the hon. Gentleman more limited in its function but with the same organisational rightly touched on. structure. A key element was that, unless a patient I declare an interest in that I come to this matter after objected, their records would automatically go on the a 15-year career in biomedical science and research, in database. That tactic of forcing people to opt out rather the last seven years of which I helped to create partnerships than in was successful and with summary care records in the national health service between NHS clinician only 1% of patients in the pilot schemes opted out. scientists, research charities, industry and university There was a discussion about what system should be scientists to try to accelerate the process by which used for opting out for the new, greater system and a modern medicines are discovered and developed. My report was written. Surprise, surprise—officials chose experience is that, over the past 10 years, this country the opt-out. With no real publicity, involvement or has quietly come to lead in the appliance and use of consultation, they have reckoned from the pilots that anonymised cohort data sets and, indeed, specific patient that might be the result nationwide. I thoroughly object data sets in particular disease areas to drive and accelerate to that. the development of modern medicines, with extraordinary NHS England published a leaflet, which might have benefits for patients in the NHS. come through Members’ doors, that supposedly meets The truth is that the traditional model of medicines the Information Commissioner’s request, but it is so development, on which we and the NHS have relied for bland, patronising and uninformative that it seems to nearly 50 years, in which the pharmaceutical industry 219WH Medical Records (Confidentiality)11 FEBRUARY 2014 Medical Records (Confidentiality) 220WH goes away and spends hundreds of millions—or increasingly, The hon. Member for Leeds East raised several important billions—of pounds and comes back to us with a perfect points that I want to touch on. We should be clear that drug that suits everybody, is a model that it cannot the data will be anonymised, and it might be worth afford, and we cannot either. The more we learn about looking at a framework to ensure that only anonymised genetics and genomics, and patients and disease, the data are released. No one is even beginning to think or more we know that your disease, Mr Hollobone, will talk about insurance or anything to do with insurance be different from mine: our susceptibility to it will be companies. That has not been mentioned, and it is different, as will be our response to drugs. The revolution important to say that here. That is not what the issue is in research data offers an extraordinary opportunity for about. We should all remember that it is illegal for the NHS to be the place in the world where we develop pharma companies to contact any patient even if they and design 21st century medicines targeted at the patients have got hold of data. who need them and generate extraordinary opportunities On opting in and opting out, the evidence suggests for our NHS patients and clinicians. that patients want their data to be used in research. The I want to mention an example that brings this matter opt-in rate to the biobank project is 98%, and when to life. The last project that I worked on was here in patients are told that the data are not being used for London, at King’s college, with Professor Simon Lovestone, research, they want to know what on earth is being the head of research at King’s academic health science done with them. centre and professor of psychiatry. The project was funded by the National Institute for Health Research, An additional point worth making concerns doctor- an NHS body, and looked at the catchment population patient confidentiality. There are layers of data, and my for the South London and Maudsley NHS mental right hon. Friend’s broken nose would sit quite high. health trust—250,000 patients suffering from a range of More discreet information such as notes by a GP may mental health ailments. As Members will be aware, in not be appropriate for release, and we should acknowledge mental health, there is no magic bullet drug; there is a that we are talking about layers of data. huge cocktail of some very difficult drugs, with hugely I will wrap up by saying that there is a huge danger in traumatic experiences for patients, who often have to the Government’s laudable initiative to link their data change dosage. It is an unsatisfactory area of modern sets together to drive the revolution: a clear statement health care, in which we are really failing a large number of patient rights is needed. Patient data are involved, of patients. The system that was put in place, funded by and patients should have a framework and the architecture the NIHR, created an anonymised dataset of the 250,000 to access them for themselves. We should encourage patients, which allows researchers to look across that them to take responsibility for their outcomes, their cohort at relationships between medicines and outcomes, health and their data. If we did that, I think that we disease and MRI scans, and really shines a light on would find much more public support for this important which drugs are working for which patients. That gives initiative, which I welcome. extraordinary opportunities to us here in London and in Britain to lead in the field of developing treatments for a whole range of mental health ailments, from 11.22 am Alzheimer’s to a range of other indicators. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health The truth is that these data are utterly key to the quiet (Dr Daniel Poulter): It is a pleasure, Mr Hollobone, to revolution in 21st century health care and medicine that serve under your chairmanship. I congratulate the hon. we are beginning to see for three reasons. The first is Member for Leeds East (Mr Mudie) on securing this research, as we have discussed. The second is accountability, debate and all hon. Members on their contributions. as we saw in the Francis report most traumatically, but across the board. My constituents want to understand I pay particular tribute to my hon. Friend the Member and to see that their patient journey from care is properly for Mid Norfolk (George Freeman) for his excellent tracked. I have power of attorney for my mother, and speech, in which he highlighted the importance of sharing last summer I wanted to be able to log on quickly to see data to improve patient care. He talked about empowering what she had been prescribed and what her diagnosis patients to take greater control over their health care. was when she was unable to do that for herself. The That is important and the key to it is ensuring that younger generation particularly want and are beginning patients have the right data to do so. He also talked to expect to be able to use data to drive accountability. about improving research, ensuring that we can properly The third and most important reason is empowerment, combat disease and linking data properly to understand which the hon. Member for Leeds East touched on. We exactly how to find cures for rare diseases. Importantly, are moving from an age when health care and medicine he referred to the fact that we need properly to understand was something that was done to us by the Government how good health services are, and to recognise where to something that we want modern 21st century citizens there is good practice. That is particularly important to take more responsibility for. Several concerns have following the Francis inquiry and report, which outlined been touched on, some of which are valid and important the importance of delivering high-quality care and to discuss— transparent and properly used data to deliver that. He made those points very well. Mr David Davis: My hon. Friend is making a fabulously compelling case and I think that I agree with everything Dr Julian Lewis: My hon. Friend the Member for that he says except for one presumption: this is being Mid Norfolk (George Freeman) also referred to a major advanced with one, all-singing, all-dancing database, project involving people at the Maudsley hospital who instead of a set of tailored, directed ones. had suffered serious mental illness. I want to hear from George Freeman: My right hon. Friend makes an the Minister that there is no way under the sun that excellent point, as ever, and I was just coming to it. people who have suffered mental illness, for example, 221WH Medical Records (Confidentiality)11 FEBRUARY 2014 Medical Records (Confidentiality) 222WH

[Dr Julian Lewis] is chaotic. That makes transparency difficult, and it was one of the things at the heart of the Francis report and would find their data getting into the wrong hands. some of the Winterbourne View issues. We must remember Without that guarantee, the project seems to be very that we would all gain from this public health benefit. dangerous. Dr Poulter: My hon. Friend makes an excellent point, Dr Poulter: In the time available, it is difficult to and he is right to highlight the fact that we are talking speak about detailed points. I apologise to my hon. about an evolutionary process. The health and social Friend for that and I will write to him addressing some care information centre is not a sudden revolution. It of the points that he raises. However, I can assure him will allow better use of information to join up care in that robust safeguards are already in place to protect exactly the way that he describes. It is no good having patients with mental illness, and those safeguards will a £3.8 billion integration fund for better provision of remain robust, if not more so under the systems that we services unless we have the right information and can will put in place. joint up intelligence to understand what good care It is important to recognise that the big challenge looks like. facing the health and care system is the fact that in the past we have had too much silo working, which has Mr Mudie: The two professionals in the Chamber are been to the detriment of patient care. The health system having an interesting conversation, but the public want has often operated in a fragmented and siloed way. The to know whether the Minister is content, first, that the operation of the health and care systems is not integrated use of personal data will not lead to the identification and joined up. Key to driving improvements in patient of individuals and, secondly, with the present system of care is ensuring that we join up the information that consultation on opting-out. informs what good care looks like. Integration involves ensuring that a process exists to join up health and care Dr Poulter: We already have robust procedures in information to improve care for patients. place, and they will exist under the new system to We want to look after people with diabetes, dementia protect patient confidentiality. I would describe them in and long-term illnesses and to give them dignity of care more detail if I had more time, but it is worth highlighting in their own homes. It is important to do that and to some of the history. It is not revolutionary to store have the right information and evidence to do so. We information; it is evolutionary. Hospital episode statistics are well into that journey. The £3.8 billion integration started being collected in the following care settings in, fund will help with the provision of services, and the I believe, the following years: inpatient data in 1989, health and social care information centre will help us to outpatient data in 2003, A and E data in 2007-08, and get the right evidence base to drive properly jointed-up, primary care data from 2014. integrated care. We already have systems for collecting and analysing information, and patient safeguards exist in those systems. George Freeman: Will the Minister confirm that the We will now see a system that better joins up and builds situation at the moment—that is, under the previous that evidence base to drive better care for patients, Care.data initiative—is more or less that GPs have which is exactly the point that my hon. Friend the patients’ records, many of which are not electronic but Member for Mid Norfolk made. We need to expand the in paper format with treasury tags, but there is no evidence base, and it is absolutely right that we ensure formal link across to hospital records? Hospitals can patient confidentiality when doing so. I believe that we say whether a patient has been admitted, but most of have the right safeguards in place to do that. them do not have an integrated system to know what A number of points have been raised in the debate, treatment a patient received in different parts of the and I will write to hon. Members with further clarification. hospital. Normally, someone pushes a wagon along the I hope that that will be helpful. corridor with the treasury-tagged information. Also, there is no integration at the moment with the care system. The data of many of my constituents who go in 11.30 am and out of hospital for acute care and community care Sitting suspended. 223WH 11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fuel Poverty 224WH

Fuel Poverty Roger Williams: My hon. Friend is correct, and I shall come on to that later. Most houses in rural areas tend to have solid walls, and insulating them is much 2.30 pm more difficult and much more expensive than dealing with properties with cavity walls. Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): As Improving the poor quality has to be the focus of always, it is a great pleasure to serve under your solving the problem. Investing in better housing should chairmanship, Mr Sheridan. I had anticipated that this be the next Government’s top infrastructure priority debate would be more heavily subscribed, but I am sure and funds need to be found. The last Liberal Democrat that what we lack in quantity, we will make up for in conference passed policies to recycle carbon taxes for quality. I know that some members of the Environmental that purpose. Investing in better housing is also good Audit Committee who would have been anxious to take for jobs and the economy, as well as having major part are away on a Select Committee visit. health benefits. The main focus of my remarks is the report by the Energy Bill Revolution, which finds that the core of the Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): I problem of fuel poverty lies with the poor heat efficiency congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate, of our housing stock. For many years, it has been more which is happening at a most appropriate time, given important to put a roof over people’s heads than to the problems that we face, which are about not only provide a warm home that is well insulated. That comes energy costs, but people staying in badly insulated housing. from a time when energy prices were cheap and carbon Is it not the case that public housing, as it was, was emissions were not considered to be a problem. Even if always better than the private sector for insulation? The we build 200,000 new homes a year of good thermal U-values in public housing were much greater than they efficiency for the next 15 years, 90% of the houses we were in the private sector. live in by 2030 will have been built before 2014, and most of them will have poor thermal characteristics. Roger Williams: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that I congratulate the Energy Bill Revolution for assembling point, but I am not in a position to answer his question. such a powerful group of charities, companies, disability I suspect that different local authorities might have had groups, environmental groups, trade unions and trade different standards in building houses. Whether they associations to tackle this important issue. I also wish were better or worse than the private sector, I guess, to congratulate it on highlighting the matter during depended on the developer. cold homes week. Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): I The causes of fuel poverty are a complicated nexus of congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. poorly insulated homes, rising fuel prices, low incomes We have had lots of debates about fuel poverty, and and limited accessibility to the cheapest fuel and best Government spending on fuel poverty is down 25% on tariffs. The Energy Bill Revolution rightly focuses on 2010. Having said that, should we not learn a lesson retrofitting substandard properties. We have a large from the past and look at the possibilities of improvement legacy of poorly insulated properties in this country. grants, which were often used—certainly in the late ’60s Such is the backlog of that essential work that, if and ’70s—to deal with this sort of problem and for 600,000 houses were treated every year, it would take when people lacked amenities, such as toilets? until 2027 to deal with 90% of the homes. Roger Williams: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): I congratulate my Finding a way forward to get improvements in heat hon. Friend on securing the debate. Does he agree that efficiency will be key to solving the problem. The Energy there is a need for local authorities to insist on proper Bill Revolution believes that the quality of the housing, energy efficiency measures in any new build? rather than other aspects, is key to the problem.

Roger Williams: My hon. Friend is completely right. Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con): The hon. Gentleman The regulation and specification for energy efficiency in is being generous in allowing interventions. Pensioners new houses today is to be welcomed. Some of us believe are among those most at risk of falling into fuel poverty. that a higher degree of that could have been aspired to. Does he agree that the Government’s warm home discount scheme has been helpful—in fact, invaluable—in providing The Energy Bill Revolution is calling for the revenues financial support for more than 1 million pensioners to from two carbon taxes—the EU emissions trading scheme help them make their homes warmer and safer? and the carbon price floor—to be invested in a massive energy efficiency programme that would eliminate the Roger Williams: I agree that the warm home discount scourge of fuel poverty once and for all. Compared scheme is very important, as are winter fuel payments with much of Europe, the UK has a bigger fuel poverty and cold weather payments. A combination of those problem because of our poor quality housing. enables old-age pensioners, particularly in poor housing, to have a fairly decent standard of living and a decent Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): Does my hon. quality of life. Friend agree that that is a particular problem in the area he represents and in my neighbouring constituency? It Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): I, too, is about the age of the housing stock coupled with the congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this important problem, as a rural area, of the absence of any gas debate. He is right to point to the necessity of insulating provision. It is a case of lacking alternatives, as well as homes better and of concentrating on that. Will he join older housing stock. me in welcoming the Northern Ireland Executive’s 225WH Fuel Poverty11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fuel Poverty 226WH

[Mr Nigel Dodds] Roger Williams: I thank my hon. Friend for bringing that to my attention. I will move on to rural issues later, approach? We have the highest levels of fuel poverty of but certainly fuel-buying clubs have a big future in rural anywhere in the UK—42% of all households are in fuel areas and make a real difference. One of the ways poverty, which is a shocking statistic—but the Housing forward that I will be suggesting later is extending the Executive has now embarked on a campaign to get all gas main to ensure that other people have the opportunity social housing double-glazed, so that there is no single- that most people in towns take for granted. glazing or substandard windows in any of these houses in Northern Ireland. Mr Donohoe: I am grateful once again to the hon. Gentleman for giving way, but it must be put on the Roger Williams: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for record that we can have long-term solutions to the those comments. They are of interest to me; I think the problem, but we have immediate problems—problems devolved nations in the UK very often show the way to right now. If one in five people are turning off the best practice in such matters and that other nations can heating in their house, it is the case that either they heat learn from them. Getting double-glazing into social the house or they feed the house. It is far more important housing and local authority housing is a way forward. to have that as the basis of a debate today on fuel The three factors that make it more likely that a poverty. household will be fuel poor are low income, high energy prices and energy inefficiency of the home, although Roger Williams: I agree with the hon. Gentleman that people would not know that from much of the noisy that is a debate to be had, but successive Governments debate in recent months, and from party promises of have been putting off taking the tough decisions that fuel price freezes and rolling back charges on bills. By need quite a large amount of expenditure and that far the most important of those in the UK context is the would make a real difference to the problem. Yes, we state of homes. UK incomes are not especially low. have to deal with the situation of pensioners and families EUROSTAT figures for real adjusted gross disposable as they experience it today, but we also must look to the income of households per capita in 2011 put the UK future. right in the middle of the table, coming seventh out of the 13 countries for which data are available. We are Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD): within ¤1,000 of Finland and the Netherlands, which I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the debate. have marginally less income, and Sweden and Belgium, Does he agree that we should not forget a significant which have marginally more. minority, which is those who live in park homes? They struggle because they have to pay for a share of the Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab): I, electricity and it is very difficult to be included in too, congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this schemes because of the construction of the properties. very important debate. According to Barnardo’s, the These really are people on low incomes. impact of fuel poverty is being felt by families and older people, but, in addition, 90% of the respondents to its Roger Williams: My hon. Friend has a great record of survey said that families were cutting back financially campaigning on behalf of park home owners. Indeed, on other services and other things to meet their fuel in Wales, through the Welsh Government, legislation costs. Therefore, although I support the hon. Gentleman’s has been brought through to support park home owners. debate, I appeal to him to recognise and highlight the One issue is how the people who live in park homes are fact that families are facing a squeeze. In areas with charged for energy and water and what the owner of the high levels of child poverty, such as in my constituency, park takes as a percentage of the charge made to the the fuel poverty dimension is a huge issue in the cost of residents. My hon. Friend has done an enormous amount living crisis. I therefore hope that he will join us in of work on that. campaigning on that and ensure that this debate falls into the context of wider poverty issues. In terms of prices in the UK, I accept that lower prices are always welcome, but we must recognise that Roger Williams: I thank the hon. Lady for making the Department of Energy and Climate Change quarterly that point. I do not underestimate the effect that fuel energy prices update shows that in 2011 the cost of a poverty has on families. It is particularly troublesome unit of domestic electricity in the UK, including taxes, that children are drawn into this problem. There will be was the third lowest in the EU15 countries. Similarly, ways in which we can deal with the immediate issues. the cost of a unit of gas was the second lowest in the The purpose of this debate, as I see it, is to find a much EU15. Buying a unit of energy in the UK is cheap by more long-term approach to the problem that will get international standards. What makes the bills expensive— rid of fuel poverty for ever, rather than mitigating it as it the bills are the key issue—is that we have to buy so appears. many units because our houses just do not keep the heat in. Guy Opperman: On that point, does my hon. Friend Only when we look at housing quality do the reasons agree with me that the progress in, for example, for our fuel poverty problems become clear. EUROSTAT Northumberland, where we have 13 oil-buying clubs, conducts an annual survey about “Statistics on Income providing more than 1 million litres of oil and a 10% to and Living Conditions”. That includes a question on 20% discount for off-grid customers, and the role of the whether households live in a dwelling with a leaking Church and credit unions in assisting those who need roof, damp walls, floors or foundations, or rot in the finance for off-grid supplies are the sort of long-term window frames or floor. Such substandard homes may solutions that we need to reduce prices and generally be hard to keep warm, as well as presenting a health risk address the problem? to the occupants. On that, the UK ranks 11th out of 15, 227WH Fuel Poverty11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fuel Poverty 228WH with almost 16% of households in leaky homes. Finland Age UK says that household energy bills in rural is at the top of the table with just 5.7%. However, a areas are, on average, 27% higher than in urban areas. second indicator shows that even UK homes without Without mains gas, people in such homes rely on more leaks or damp lose more heat than those of most of our expensive forms of fuel such as heating oil, liquid neighbours. The amount of heat that a wall allows to petroleum gas, solid fuel or even electric heating. The escape is measured by using what is known as a U-value. extension of the gas grid would bring benefits to many Data from the Buildings Performance Institute Europe such homes. The Government must also ensure that data hub show that homes in the UK are further from homes that rely on more expensive heating fuels are the optimal U-value than those in almost every other better insulated if people are to be able to afford energy country for which figures are available. We come seventh bills in the future. out of eight countries. There is a real warning in these figures for politicians Mr Dodds: The hon. Gentleman has raised a significant of all parties. Talking big on price cuts may be popular, point about off-grid households, and he is right to say but they will not solve the problem of fuel poverty. A that the problem is far worse in some areas of the politician without a serious plan to improve housing is country than in others. In Northern Ireland, 70% of very unlikely to be serious about tackling fuel poverty. households are dependent on home heating oil, which is a massive extra cost burden, and the warm home discount Guy Opperman: My hon. Friend has not mentioned does not apply in the Province. Does he agree that the thus far the green deal, which, as part of the coalition’s matter should be looked at as a priority? The problems policy, is one of the finest things, and one of the things faced by off-grid households are critical for rural areas of which I am most proud, in terms of improving and peripheral parts of the UK. housing stock on a very cost-efficient basis that addresses both energy efficiency and environmental concerns. Roger Williams: I absolutely agree with the right hon. Gentleman. One of the first things I did when I was Roger Williams: I thank my hon. Friend for picking elected to the House was to continue the work of my me up on that. The green deal is indeed a very important predecessor, who wanted to bring real competition into part of the coalition’s policy. Figures show that more the supply of liquid petroleum gas. We managed to get and more people are making use of green deal assessments. the Competition Commission to conduct an inquiry Indeed, some of the companies providing those assessments into the procedures that limited people’s ability to change are not charging for them, but see that as an opportunity providers, and the commission introduced proposals to to suggest ways forward that will improve the environment allow people to change their supplier without having to of the house. As I understand it, though, some of the change their bulk tank. That has made people much green deal finance is not taken up. Some of the green more likely to choose their own supplier. deal recommendations are put into practice without taking up the green deal finance. Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): I congratulate my hon. Friend on the success of his campaign. I am Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): I congratulate the sure that he was as disappointed as me by the Office of hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. On the green Fair Trading investigation into the heating oil market, deal, he is correct to say that the number of assessments which concluded that it was working fine, when it is is going up, but the Government’s targets have not quite quite clear that in rural constituencies such as mine been met. However, when the assessments have been people are subject to monopolies because they do not done, the practical steps that are taken are to replace have a choice of suppliers. Does he agree that the OFT boilers, for example. Surely it would be more cost-effective should look at the situation again? to have a scrappage scheme and a boiler efficiency scheme, which would help people on grid and off grid. Roger Williams: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend, and I would join him if he made such a proposal. Roger Williams: I understand that the hon. Gentleman At the height of concern about the lack of competition has a real passion for this issue. We share that, as we in heating oil, we looked at a price comparison site that represent rural areas. I am not quite sure how a scrappage was available to my constituents, which appeared to scheme would fit into the green deal, but I am sure that show four potential suppliers of oil. When we looked he will enlighten me on that after the debate. I will come into it, however, those suppliers were all the same on to some of my concerns about the ECO—energy company pretending to provide competition and offering company obligation—scheme later. marginal differences in oil price. That was undoubtedly On the rural situation—this is a caveat on the comments illegal, and I believe that the company concerned has that I have just made—certain parts of the UK face been prosecuted. significantly higher energy prices. Rural areas in particular are far less likely to be on the mains gas grid. The Mr Jim Cunningham: I sometimes think that the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs suggestion that poor families should shop around for has found that although 10% of the houses in urban cheaper fuel is a cop-out. We should, as I said in a areas do not have a gas connection, that figure rises to debate in this place about three years ago, carry out a 36% in rural areas. In villages, the figure rises to more proper investigation into the companies involved, because than 50%, and for hamlets and isolated dwellings it is they are frankly rigging the market. Some years ago more than 60%. Those figures are for England in 2009, when I was in Cornwall, I saw five fuel tankers lined up but they illustrate the point well, although I am sure for about three weeks to force the price up. Does the that for some of the devolved nations they could be hon. Gentleman agree that it is time we had a proper much higher. inquiry into the industry to break those companies up? 229WH Fuel Poverty11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fuel Poverty 230WH

Roger Williams: I completely agree with the hon. My hon. Friend the Member for Southport (John Gentleman, because transparency is essential. I have Pugh), who cannot be present in the debate, has concerns already told hon. Members about the experience that I about the operation of the ECO scheme with regard to had in my constituency, and I have even suggested that the replacement of boilers. Manufacturers tell him that in the energy supply industry, we need a different type because the scheme is about carbon reduction rather of company to come in and promote real competition. I than fuel poverty, it is being directed at people with have suggested that Welsh Water, a not-for-profit company large homes and old boilers rather than at the fuel poor. that pays no dividends to shareholders and is responsible Many of the big six have already met their targets, and only to its customers, might provide good competition no more funding is available for free boilers for people in the system. People should be able to choose to take in need. Many boiler companies have done the work services such as water, electricity or gas from such a only to be told that there is no funding. Suppliers are company. switching to inferior boilers manufactured abroad, which puts consumers at risk. Will the Minister address that Ending fuel poverty is undoubtedly a massive task. today or contact my hon. Friend to answer his questions? At its launch, the Energy Bill Revolution estimated that we need to improve slightly more than 9 million homes, We have covered quite a lot of ground, and there have and it assessed the average cost of improving each home been some helpful interventions from other hon. Members. to be £6,500. Many homes can be improved for far less I look forward to the rest of the debate. than that, but the most difficult to treat can be very expensive indeed. Improvements have already been made 2.59 pm to many cavity-wall homes, but improving the insulation of those with solid walls, which are the ones that really Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): It is a pleasure to need it, can be expensive. serve under your chairmanship again, Mr Sheridan, and to follow the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire The Energy Bill Revolution has pointed out that the (Roger Williams). He has been a sincere campaigner on Treasury is already receiving the proceeds from the behalf of the fuel poor for many years, particularly auction of carbon permits under the EU emissions since we both came into the House in 2001. I very much trading scheme, which along with money from the agreed with the tone of his speech and the outcomes carbon price floor, may raise an average of £4 billion that he asked for. I make no apology for concentrating over the next five years. That money ultimately comes in my speech on some of the issues that he raised from those who pay energy bills, and the Energy Bill because they are very important. Revolution suggests that it should be invested in energy efficiency measures to help cut those bills. I am proud One statistic, which comes from the Department of that as part of the zero-carbon Britain policy that we Energy and Climate Change, is that, on average, fuel passed at our most recent party conference, the Liberal poverty in rural areas is twice that of urban areas. The Democrat party decided, in common with other EU fuel-poor are concentrated in many of the rural areas of Governments, to allocate revenue from the EU ETS the United Kingdom. I am glad that the Minister is and the carbon price floor to an energy efficiency present, because he has given evidence to the Energy programme designed to assist households suffering from and Climate Change Committee on a number of occasions, fuel poverty. I hope that the Minister will take that large and I know that he is sincere in his wish for an all-UK ask seriously and consider the use of carbon taxes to solution to fuel poverty, whether for those in a large achieve it. I also ask him to consider how to support urban town or city or those in a small rural area. hard-to-treat homes, because improvements to easy-to-treat I would like to give some context on why we must do homes, cavity walls and loft insulation will all soon be more for rural areas. I have been campaigning for some done. time about off-grid gas and for the extension of the gas I turn to a favourite theme of mine, which is extending mains. I am pleased that the Energy Bill Revolution the gas main. The fuel poverty problems of at least campaign has come up with funding mechanisms for three villages in my constituency would be greatly reduced that from the EU emissions trading scheme and the by the installation of mains gas. Abercraf, a former carbon floor tax. That is important, but I would like to mining community of some 1,000 people, used to rely add a third stream to that funding equation. Shale gas on the free coal that was available to many of its has great potential for this country’s future revenues. If inhabitants who were coal miners, their widows or their the exploration goes ahead and the volume of recoverable relations. Sadly, such free fuel is no longer available to gas is sufficient, the profits should be used to extend the many of the residents, and they have no mains gas. In gas mains into rural areas of the UK. Llangynidr, another village, the mains gas supply runs As regulator, Ofgem insists that its policy is to extend on the other side of the River Usk, and the installation the gas mains, but currently the incentives are just not of a crossing for the mains pipeline is thought to be too there for the energy distribution companies. I support expensive. The third village, Howey, needs only a short the Government’s stance on shale gas, and it is quite extension from Llandrindod Wells. At the moment, right that, if we have a bonanza, there must be local however, they all remain excluded from mains gas. I community benefits, but there should also be national know that the expense of installing such facilities is benefits. If the Exchequer is going to enjoy greater great and that individuals will be asked to contribute to revenues from the exploration of shale gas, similar to that cost, but some of them will find it difficult to do so those that we have seen from North sea oil and gas, we because they are pensioners. With funds shortly beginning should have a national strategy. I would like such revenue to flow from income streams such as shale gas, can the to be put towards extending the gas grid of Great Minister give some good news to those communities? Britain and Northern Ireland. I stress Northern Ireland Those are big asks for a big solution, but they would because I am fully aware of the problems that people bring great benefits to our constituents. there have with the high price of oil. 231WH Fuel Poverty11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fuel Poverty 232WH

I am as disappointed as other Members who have VAT on their fuel. That 2.5p in every pound that people intervened about the fact that the OFT has not strongly spend on diesel or petrol has an impact and creates a concluded that those who live off-grid do not enjoy the cost of living crisis in such areas. We are not talking benefits of those who are on the grid. It has looked at about cars as luxury items; we are talking about essential competition very narrowly. It is difficult to unpick that, means of transport. and the Competition Commission has been unable to unpick the unfairness that lies behind people’s lack of Mr Mark Williams: Does the hon. Gentleman share choice when they are off-grid. For example, they do not my disappointment that the whole of Wales is excluded enjoy the duel-fuel discounts that the big six and other from the Government’s laudable attempt to achieve a energy companies boast about because they do not have derogation of fuel duty? That is despite Wales being a dual fuels. They cannot get gas and electricity from the sparsely populated area by anyone’s standards—his same supplier so that they can enjoy a reduction in their constituency and mine certainly are. bills. That opportunity does not exist for them. I am pleased that the Labour party has made the Albert Owen: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. I commitment that the regulator will look after those compliment the Government for introducing the fuel who are off-grid in the same way that it looks after duty rebate and for making representations on the issue. those who are on the gas mains grid. I have pressed the I am sure that the Minister and my hon. Friend the Government on that issue on a number of occasions. It shadow Minister will know that I am not shy of criticising is important that the regulator is the champion of my own party, and I was not shy of criticising it when people who live in rural areas. The electricity and gas we were in government, because it should have taken markets were privatised rather hastily and the regulations that step. Nevertheless, it is wrong now to exclude a were put in place to look after privatised areas. The whole area—a whole country—because it is within 100 miles off-grid issue was neglected in many ways, but it is time of a refinery. No one in my area, the most north-western for that to end. point of Wales, can plug into a refinery. The independent suppliers are paying extra for fuel because of the cost of With the rise of energy prices, we have seen a fuel transport from those very refineries. The 100 mile radius poverty crisis in many places. DECC’s own figures show principle is really a fly in the ointment. People in Wales, that people who live off-grid and those in rural areas unlike those in remote areas of Scotland and in some have been hurt more than those who are on the grid, parts of England, have been seriously disadvantaged. so we must take an important step. The Minister and They are paying extra. the Government are looking at extending the gas mains, but will he comment today on the possibility of the revenues from shale gas being used as an incentive Mr Dodds: I want to pick up on a point made in the for the distribution companies that often have no previous intervention. The hon. Gentleman will no competition? doubt join me in expressing concern and anger that the rural fuel rebate scheme does not apply to any part of The electricity and gas market is not fully competitive. Northern Ireland either, even though we have the highest Monopolies set the prices in the transmission and diesel and petrol prices anywhere in the UK and, indeed, distribution of gas—huge prices that contribute between sometimes in Europe. This is a major issue for us as 19% and 24% of gas and electricity bills. We are not well, and it must be revised and looked at. talking about a small fraction like the green levy, which was X%. A quarter of the actual price is the result of Albert Owen: Absolutely. The criteria should take distribution and transmission. That must be looked rural areas into account, as well as peripheral areas of into, because bills are increasing. I was very keen on the UK, because they are the ones that are disadvantaged. what the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire Someone in a rural area of central Yorkshire, for example, said about the comparison with European prices. He could probably travel in all directions to get a better said that that included tax, but if he looks at the deal on their fuel. However, for someone in a peripheral matter closely, the fact that we have a 5% VAT threshold area, such as the hon. Member for Ceredigion on energy gives us an advantage, because the rate is (Mr Williams), there is only one way to get their fuel. higher in many other European countries. I know that he was present at this morning’s debate on the effect of Roger Williams: The hon. Gentleman and I are at one VAT on tourism. The off-grid is disadvantaged. We on this issue. I emphasise the importance of independent need a regulator and champion to bring benefits to petrol retailers, without whom many rural areas would off-grid consumers. not be served. They also serve to keep the bigger suppliers I want also to talk about transportation in rural and supermarkets honest: without the independents, we areas, because it also has an effect. There is a double do not know what the supermarkets would charge. whammy: people are paying more for oil and off-grid gas and more for transportation and fuel. I very much Albert Owen: Absolutely. I ask the Minister to put welcome the Government’s freeze on fuel duty. I have pressure on the Treasury to reconsider the criteria for campaigned for it for a long time, under previous the fuel rebate, so that areas such as the periphery areas Governments, and previous Chancellors have frozen in west and north Wales and Northern Ireland can be the duty for many years. Members will recall that the given a fair chance. There is absolutely no doubt that fuel duty escalator was introduced in the ’90s. It people in those areas pay more for their fuel, as any cost escalated quite a lot, and there was a crisis point in comparison shows. That fly in the ointment—being 2000, when there were fuel protests in this country. 100 miles from a refinery—should be excluded from the There were price freezes thereafter for a number of criteria and the formula. I reiterate that I congratulate years. People in my constituency and many rural areas the Government on taking the initiative forward, because in the UK are affected by the fact that they are paying some areas of the UK will benefit. 233WH Fuel Poverty11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fuel Poverty 234WH

[Albert Owen] (Albert Owen) and my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams), who has I finish on the green deal, which I think everybody in done so much in this area. He has done the House a the House welcomes. We welcome the focus of attention good service in securing this debate. He set the parameters on alleviating fuel poverty and introducing energy efficiency for the debate clearly and effectively, stating what we measures. However, the green deal that has gone through can do to improve energy performance and reduce bills the House and is now in place is a little cumbersome in our homes. We heard some interventions from the and expensive. It is well-intentioned, but the rates at Opposition about the immediacy of the issue—a point which people would borrow money are too high. Again, that I do not think is lost on anybody—and my hon. there is a simpler solution. Friend gave a longer-term vision of the action that must I will try to answer the question asked by the hon. start soon. The truth is that both approaches must be Member for Brecon and Radnorshire about boiler undertaken. replacement. The evidence that I am hearing—I am This debate is particularly timely, given that last week talking to many of the energy companies as well—is was cold homes week, a campaign to raise awareness of that most energy is lost through inefficient boilers, the Energy Bill Revolution that we have heard about in many of which are in older properties. They are placed gatherings here over the last week. I will use this opportunity in the living room, and most of the heat goes up the to discuss some smaller measures that could be taken to chimney. The boilers themselves are inefficient, so the make our homes more fuel-efficient and keep them heat goes out through the flues. A package is needed to warm, an issue on which my local authority has been help with boiler replacements, because modern boilers— active. condensing boilers, for example—are hugely energy-efficient. Research undertaken by the Energy Bill Revolution We must remember that most households replace their campaign has shown that overall, the UK ranks bottom boilers only after they break down. We are probably all of 16 western European countries with comparable guilty of that: “Oh, this inefficient boiler’s got another year properties on a range of factors, including the affordability left in it.” That is why the scrappage scheme under the of space heating units, the share of household energy last Government was so successful. People realised, “I spent on heating, the percentage of households in energy might have a year or two to go on this one, but it’s well poverty, the number of homes in a poor state of repair worth replacing it now.” We are finding—anecdotally, and the thermal performance of walls. That is particularly but I have read it on numerous occasions—that there is pertinent to rural Wales, as I said in an intervention, as a pattern. Many people who want to use the green deal much of our housing stock is dated and of a poor get the assessment, go through all the paperwork and standard, with poor heating systems, insulation and so find out that just replacing the boiler or the thermostat on. It is of great concern to hear that we are performing on the radiator does the job. That is why I think that we so badly compared with our European counterparts, should have a reduced version of the green deal, so that but it goes to show that if the issue is dealt with in the people can get quick fixes, perhaps while raising revenues right way, it can be addressed effectively, as it has been for exterior insulation, for example, for hard-to-heat homes. elsewhere. There are some good examples in Wales of energy companies—yes, I pay tribute to the big six for this—giving Rushanara Ali: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that free insulation for lofts, or giving pensioners additional although the Prime Minister spoke well, before he was insulation in their lofts and walls. That has been a huge elected, about having the greenest Government ever, the success, but the green deal is missing a trick due to its Government are missing a trick by not investing in the cumbersome nature. Fuel poverty is hugely important, kinds of initiative that can genuinely create a green and I am pleased that it has come to the House. This is economy and jobs, and deal with some of the issues that an important debate on an important issue. The hon. he and other colleagues have raised, including retrofitting Member for Brecon and Radnorshire has outlined the and improving energy efficiency? Will he join us in issues in a measured way, and I know that the Minister encouraging his Government to take more active steps will respond in an equally measured way. to consider how to promote the green economy while It is in everybody’s interest that we reduce fuel poverty addressing fuel poverty? and the amount of carbon emissions. It is in everybody’s interest that we have energy-efficient homes and businesses. Mr Williams: I am grateful for that provocative When we have this debate, we tend to exclude businesses. intervention. I will not join the hon. Lady. I actually We need energy-efficient businesses. Members from all aspire, like the hon. Member for Ynys Môn, to a parts of the United Kingdom have businesses in their cross-party approach to the issue. The Prime Minister constituency that are concerned about their energy prices, and my party leader made various comments before the and they do not get the deals that many individuals get general election, many of which have been or are being that are easy to switch. It is difficult for small businesses delivered on, through the green deal. However, I do as well. I am pleased to have taken part in this debate, agree with the hon. Lady that we must be even more and I hope that the Minister will consider some of the ambitious and take the agenda forward, so there is points made by the hon. Member for Brecon and partial agreement. Radnorshire and me. The issue unites the House, and the House of Commons is at its best when united. The Energy Bill Revolution campaign, in whose measures I am particularly interested in this debate, calls for revenues from two carbon taxes—the EU emissions 3.14 pm trading scheme and the carbon floor price—to be invested Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): It is a pleasure in a widespread energy efficiency programme in the to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Sheridan, and a hope of eliminating poverty. The campaign believes privilege to follow the hon. Member for Ynys Môn that investment in improving the energy efficiency of 235WH Fuel Poverty11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fuel Poverty 236WH the UK’s leaky homes would save the average family She has built an oil syndicate for her community; we money, provide the jobs mentioned by the hon. Member have talked about the big society, but I think that that for Bethnal Green and Bow (Rushanara Ali) by developing initiative was always there. What should the Department the green economy, and boost growth. Incidentally, it do to encourage the development of such syndicates? has also undertaken polling that suggests that it would We need them on a much bigger scale, not least in my be a popular form of investment. Most people feel that area, which is off-grid for gas. it would bring them more benefit than some of the I was delighted, for cold homes week, to visit two more controversial road or rail projects. projects in my constituency that do fantastic work to What makes the debate even more timely, especially help my constituents make the most of the energy on for Wales, is the fact that figures released last week which they spend their hard-earned money. One is indicate that in Wales, fuel poverty has increased by Ymlaen Ceredigion, a charity that runs the Keep Cosy 13% over the past year and that, more worryingly, more initiative in conjunction with Ceredigion county council than one in four families with dependent children are and Aberystwyth university. It gives residents free advice fuel-poor. Families are struggling to keep their homes in a home visit, pointing out ways to minimise energy warm at a reasonable price due to our poor housing consumption, including through draught-proofing, energy stock, as has been outlined. The hon. Member for monitors and radiator backing, and signposting them Bethnal Green and Bow alluded to work done by towards energy schemes. Funding to enable 400 households Barnardo’s; I concur with that work. Barnardo’s and to benefit has been secured, and built into the project is the Children’s Society support the Energy Bill Revolution. the expectation that the information on energy conservation The Children’s Society found, in a survey of 2,000 children will cascade down to other families. I also visited across the UK, that about 28% of them thought that Cymdogion Cynnes—the Ceredigion Warm Neighbour their homes were too cold, and this winter more than scheme—which aims to help residents by collating all 3 million families are likely to have to cut back on information on available energy grants and schemes in essentials such as food to pay their energy bills. one place. That is a valuable resource; we hear time and Some good moves have been made, as was pointed again that lack of access to information about schemes out by the hon. Member for Gosport (Caroline Dinenage). is a barrier. That county council project is most welcome. One of those was the warm home discount introduced I was sitting at home on Sunday evening and the in 2011—inadequate in its coverage, of course, and not telephone rang; it was an automated message offering enough, but important to many. It required the big six me a free home insulation service. I was supposed to to provide £135 towards energy bills to low-income, press 2 on the telephone and an agent would enlighten more vulnerable households. Low-income pensioners me and my wife about the benefits on offer. I am not are in the core eligibility group. However, energy companies sure where that came from, or whether it was from can use criteria to decide whether struggling families green deal operatives; perhaps the Minister or his shadow qualify. It is scandalous that although it may be known would know. I await enlightenment. It is a good, proactive that a family are struggling, they may still not get that way to deal with things, but it makes the point that support. I endorse the Children’s Society’s call on the people need to know where to get information, or, in my Government to ensure that no household is without a case, where it is coming from. warm home discount if it is known that there is a child living in poverty there. Annette Brooke: I agree with my hon. Friend that Will the Minister consider encouraging companies to small community initiatives are incredibly important. extend the eligibility criteria for a warm home discount The point has come my way that some older people, so that poorer families are automatically included? Perhaps who could have free loft insulation, cannot face dealing that would be families who receive extra child tax with the loft to make it possible; we need voluntary credits, or households earning less than £10,000. The bodies on hand to help and make things easier—and to Government have done wonderful things on tax thresholds explain that perhaps it will not be the upheaval they for those earning less than £10,000, and have taken imagine. many people out of tax altogether. The additional action that I suggest is something immediate and pertinent Mr Williams: I agree. Elderly people are one of the that could be done. Does the Minister have any dialogue target groups that we want to approach, and briefings with energy companies, or does he plan to have any, from Age Cymru or Age UK make that point strongly. about extending the criteria for the warm home discount What my hon. Friend says is important; somewhere to working families in which there are children living in along the line, more of a one-to-one dialogue will be poverty? That would help many of my constituents. needed to get those people engaged in schemes. I want to mention some local initiatives. The hon. I want to reiterate the point that the hon. Member for Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman) spoke about the Ynys Môn made when he talked about his passion for need to develop bulk-buying oil syndicates; 70% of my getting people on to mains gas. As I have mentioned, constituency, including my house, does not have access 70% of my constituents do not have mains gas in their to mains gas, and I wonder what the Department of homes. People talk about swapping suppliers, but we Energy and Climate Change is doing to support the are limited in our choices and there is a need to renew development of such syndicates, for domestic oil in work on that. I am sure—or I hope—that DECC is particular. There have been schemes in the past. I think undertaking such work. I was in the main Chamber that a predecessor of the Minister’s alluded, in a letter, earlier, and in a discussion of energy policy in the to a competition; I think it is less a question of a nations of the UK, the Minister’s predecessor, the hon. competition than of a drive to encourage the development Member for Wealden (Charles Hendry), pointed out of oil syndicates. I declare an interest, because my that there is a need for that renewed emphasis, particularly family is the beneficiary of one, organised by an inspiring for rural areas and people who do not have the range of lady, Jane Wakeham, in the village of Llanddewi Brefi. choices that many others have. 237WH Fuel Poverty11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fuel Poverty 238WH

[Mr Mark Williams] for the Conservation of Energy; and Age UK. Last Friday, I went along to support Age UK’s bobble day in The Government have undertaken some good initiatives, my constituency, which highlighted some of the issues and the hon. Member for Ynys Môn was big enough to that we are debating. Such organisations are bringing acknowledge that. We must build consensus on some of the issue of fuel poverty to a wider audience, and I hope those; that is what the campaign that I am associated that the coalition of groups committed to fighting fuel with is about, and the number of organisations that poverty continues to grow. have joined the Energy Bill Revolution campaign is I am proud of the good work that the last Labour relevant to that. I want a renewed vision for rural areas. Government did on fuel poverty, and I am concerned If the Minister will answer me on one matter, perhaps it that the current Government are undoing much of it. could be the development of community oil syndicates. Projects such as the carbon emissions reduction target, I feel strongly about that, because it is a good and the community energy saving programme and Warm proven way for consumers, in the absence of choice, to Front were not perfect, but they all helped to lift people get something approaching justice in relation to the out of fuel poverty. bills that they pay. The energy market reforms that my right hon. Friends the Members for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband), 3.28 pm and for Don Valley (Caroline Flint), have set out in Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab): It is, as ever, detail will help to address the issue of rising energy bills. a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Sheridan. Our reforms will improve competition and transparency I thank and pay tribute to the hon. Member for Brecon in both the wholesale market and the retail market, and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) for securing this establish a new energy security board to plan and vital debate. We could almost say that we have had a deliver the capacity that Britain needs, and replace Welsh debate, because the three speeches have come Ofgem with a new regulator with real teeth to prevent from Welsh Members of Parliament, but that is not overcharging. Moreover, while these reforms are being what it was; it has been much broader, although the implemented, we will freeze energy bills for 20 months. speeches highlighted issues that affect rural communities, It should go without saying that energy efficiency and much of Wales is rural. must also be a key consideration when combating fuel There is wide agreement throughout the House that poverty. However, the Government’s record on fuel whatever measurement is used, the number of people in poverty and energy efficiency has been hugely disappointing. the country classed as fuel-poor is too high. It should be The energy company obligation in its original form, a source of shame that in Europe only Estonia has a which I should remind Members was the only energy higher proportion of its population in fuel poverty. efficiency programme available to the public under this Things appear to be getting worse, and among the Government, was expensive, bureaucratic and poorly reasons for that is the fact that the issues raised in the targeted at the fuel-poor. Of course, any scheme that debate are so complex and wide-ranging that there is attempts to address fuel poverty must be welcomed, not one solution. There are knock-on effects for many particularly after the Government scrapped Warm Front. Departments. Housing issues have been mentioned a However, ECO was a scheme of only modest ambition, number of times in this debate, but they are not the aiming to lift only 125,000 to 250,000 households out of responsibility of the Department of Energy and Climate fuel poverty, and it has been condemned by the Select Change. There are also issues about the supply of Committee on Energy and Climate Change as energy to off-grid homes. The solutions to these difficulties “insufficient considering the scale of fuel poverty”. will be many and multifaceted, and we must recognise that. ECO could certainly be much improved. It could be made more efficient by focusing its delivery on specific The scale of the problem of fuel poverty is severe. As geographic areas, and by devoting a far higher proportion a result of the age profile of the UK’s housing stock, we of the money that it raises to lifting people out of fuel have some of the least energy-efficient dwellings in poverty. Alongside a properly functioning green deal, Europe. Earlier, an hon. Member mentioned the U-rating an improved ECO would also allow us to hit our carbon of public housing as opposed to private housing. In my reduction targets and generate many thousands of jobs. experience, public housing—social housing—is often of a far better standard, particularly in the rented sector, The Government’s announcement on ECO in the than private rented housing, which has some of the autumn statement was all the more frustrating and worst energy insulation standards in our housing stock. disappointing because just as ECO was beginning to There are some difficulties. The fact that our country achieve limited success, the Government caved in to has a long-standing population going back many thousands pressure from the energy companies and let them off of years means that we have some beautiful old buildings, the hook, so that they did not have to extend ECO. The but we do not have buildings that are particularly effect of that has been disastrous. energy-efficient, and some of the issues around modernising Many of the consequences of the changes to ECO them are complex. are still unknown. In his response, can the Minister tell Recent figures show that 2.4 million households in us when the impact assessment and consultation on the the UK are classified as being fuel-poor. Furthermore, changes to ECO will happen? There are numerous the distressing statistic that there were 31,000 excess examples of the devastating repercussions that followed winter deaths last year shows just how vital it is that we the changes to ECO, such as the effect on the scheme in combat fuel poverty. I recognise the important work Clifton, which is in the constituency of my hon. Friend being carried out by organisations such as the Energy the Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood); Bill Revolution, which the hon. Member for Brecon and there, the Government’s changes allowed British Gas Radnorshire talked about in some detail; the Association simply to walk away from a project that was due to deal 239WH Fuel Poverty11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fuel Poverty 240WH with problems affecting somewhere in the region of that would be a popular policy, as well as one that 4,000 homes. Does the Minister agree that where deals would help to address the implications of climate change have been signed but the work has not been done, the and take people out of fuel poverty. energy company should honour its commitment? The greater worry about some of the changes to ECO Julie Elliott: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. is that the more difficult solid-wall insulations will Fuel poverty and energy efficiency are important issues. simply not happen and, as is often said, only the low- Whenever I knock on doors and talk to people, they are hanging fruit will be picked. However, until we start to among the main issues that they are very concerned tackle the very complex properties, particularly the about. People are very worried about their heating bills, solid-wall properties, we will not really tackle the problems. and tackling heating bills is not only about tackling energy costs at source but about ensuring that homes I will briefly mention the green deal, the Government’s are insulated as well as they possibly can be, so that the flagship project on energy efficiency. It was meant to amount of energy used is as low as possible; that is dovetail with ECO, but it has been an abject failure. Just important because of the impact that it would have on over 600 homes have taken advantage of the green deal not only climate change, but household bills. Of course, financial packages. In its current form, the green deal is it is not just in the domestic market that energy is a key an unattractive offer, with a sky-high interest rate and factor; energy bills are one of the biggest factors in an incredible amount of bureaucracy for both home industry, and in employing people. The knock-on owners and installers. To all intents and purposes, it has implications of energy are massive, so getting it right is become a boiler replacement scheme. There is nothing very important. wrong with boiler replacement schemes, but it was not the ambition and objective of the green deal that it should be a boiler replacement scheme. Boilers need Albert Owen: Will my hon. Friend share with the replacing and get replaced, but the issues are so much House her views on the regulator being the champion more complex than that. We need a scheme that really for people who are not on the gas grid? This is the crux works to address the wide-ranging problems, and that of the issue. Many people who are off-grid do not have makes finance accessible to everybody to solve those somebody to speak up for them in an impartial way. She problems. mentioned the Secretary of State, who is looking at the Office of Fair Trading and the Competition Commission I must comment on the hon. Member for Brecon and in respect of gas prices. Many hon. Members have been Radnorshire’s reference to Liberal Democrat party policy calling for that for some time. Again, the OFT and the on energy. Much of it is honourable, and much of it I Competition Commission are being brought in, whereas, would not disagree with. However, it is a shame that the if we had a strong regulator, it could deal with this Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, who matter. is a member of the Liberal Democrat party, does not vote in the House for Liberal Democrat policy.A particular Julie Elliott: I thank my hon. Friend for making example is the 2030 decarbonisation target. He is on those two important points. Of course, we are proposing, public record as saying that he agrees with it, but he as a party, to abolish the current regulator and bring in does not vote for it. Everyone I meet in the sector who a new one with more teeth, which will cover some of the invests in energy, whether they are in insulation or off-grid issues that are not covered at the moment. I renewables, says that one of the things they want is that represent an urban community, and it has been shocking 2030 target, in order to secure investment. I had to draw for me to hear, over the past few years, some of the attention to that. stories about off-grid people’s problems. The situation At every stage of life, living in fuel poverty is a is bad for everybody, but they have so many other issues terrible way to live. Young people in cold homes are on top of that, and that needs sorting out for the long twice as likely to suffer from respiratory diseases and term. five times more likely to suffer from mental health The Secretary of State made great play yesterday of problems. For adults, cold homes impact on existing the moneys involved in the big six, and figures were health conditions, and for older people, cold homes can quoted that we published a month ago, so that is not be a killer. We need to improve energy efficiency in all new news. However, at least he has suddenly found that homes in the UK, but particularly in the homes where what is going on is a problem. The problem in all this is people need it most. That is why Labour would ensure that the regulator is simply not working and operating that the help that is available would first go to people in in the interests of the general public. We need to focus fuel poverty and others who need it most. Better insulated not just on paying less for energy, but on using less homes mean warmer homes, lower bills and more energy. Hon. Members from all parties care passionately comfortable lives, so it is shocking that the Government about fuel poverty. I hope that the Minister listened are scaling back their energy efficiency programmes. carefully to what was said in the debate. I urge him to It is our intention in the spring to publish our Green place fuel poverty, cold homes and, ultimately, energy Paper on energy efficiency, which my hon. Friend the efficiency at the top of the Government’s agenda. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds) will lead on. 3.41 pm Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab): Is my hon. The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Friend aware of the poll carried out for the Energy Bill Climate Change (Michael Fallon): I, too, congratulate Revolution group, which showed that 85% of people—a the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger massive proportion—want the Government to prioritise Williams) on securing this debate on fuel poverty and energy efficiency and make it one of the key things that cold homes. Like the hon. Member for Sunderland they use their investment in infrastructure for? Clearly, Central (Julie Elliott), I note that all the Back-Bench 241WH Fuel Poverty11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fuel Poverty 242WH

[Michael Fallon] Departments ensure that there is a comparison with the old figures, so that people are not as sceptical about the speakers were from Wales. I make no complaint about change for change’s sake? I agree with the Minister that that at all; these are important issues. I note that fuel drawing wealthy people into this is not the way forward, poverty, as a subject, is a devolved matter. I am not but for people to have confidence in the new calculation, trying to escape responsibility—I will try to answer a lot there needs to be a comparison over the transition of these points—but perhaps some questions should period. also be addressed to the Welsh Government and their spending decisions. Michael Fallon: That seems to me a reasonable point. Let me begin by saying a little bit about fuel poverty, I will see whether we can set the tables side by side. Of something on the retail market and prices and something course, I have to tell the House that the figure was not about the off-grid issue, which a number of hon. Members dreamt up by the Government; it was the work of mentioned. I will then try to answer some points made Professor Hills, who consulted widely on it. It has been by hon. Members in their speeches. I hope that they will supported by those who work in this area. allow me to write to them if I do not cover every point We had already moved, under the Energy Act, to that has been mentioned. ensure that the energy market, with its confusingly large I hope that hon. Members welcome the fall in the last number and range of tariffs, which had not been serving reported fuel poverty figures as much as I do. Of course, the consumer as well as they might, could make it much that followed a period in which fuel poverty rose between simpler for consumers to understand prices and ensure 2004 and 2009, reaching a peak of 5.5 million households. that everybody is put on the cheapest tariff that meets I put that on the record as a criticism not of the their preference. I am glad, too, that that seemed to previous Government, but of how fuel poverty was secure all-party support, as the energy legislation went measured. To help us meet the challenge better, with the through the House. new more accurate measure that we are introducing, We were confronted in the autumn with some quite which deals with low income and higher cost together, unacceptably large price increases, by some major suppliers, we will be better able to design and deliver effective of 8%, 9% and 10%. We moved immediately, as would policies that can cut bills and increase comfort for those be expected of a listening Government, to consider on low incomes who live in the very coldest homes. I am what could be done to reduce the bit on the bill—the pleased that the House agreed to the Energy Act 2013, green levies—that the Government have control over. which allows us to bring in the new definition. We have secured an average reduction of some £50 per household. That is important. People do not have to Chris Williamson: Does the Minister understand the wait for an unworkable price freeze. This Government scepticism out there about the Government’s changing take action immediately to ensure that people see a how fuel poverty is calculated? People want to see reduction in their bills as quickly as possible. significant investment in energy efficiency, to ensure that the shocking increase in excess winter deaths last Julie Elliott: Although we would welcome any reduction winter is not repeated in future. Fiddling around with in bills, does the Minister acknowledge that the average the measurement of fuel poverty will do little to address consumer will still pay about £60 more this winter than that. People see winter deaths rising and fuel poverty last winter? increasing, but they see spending on tackling it falling. The Government need to deal with that, rather than Michael Fallon: No, I do not think that is the right simply changing the definition of what constitutes fuel figure. In any case, the hon. Lady would be advised to poverty. go a little bit further back and see the scale of the increase under the final years of her Government. This Michael Fallon: I am a little disappointed about that. debate, so far, has been reasonably good natured. I am We all deplore any excess deaths arising in the winter not sure how useful it is to tempt her back on to months, but in terms of fiddling with the figures, the previous ground, but I will come to some remarks that new definition of fuel poverty that we are securing was she made. reached by agreement with fuel poverty action groups I want finally to say something about off-grid and that have welcomed the new focus, which, as I say, is on then deal with hon. Members’ individual points. Four low-income households as well as high-cost households. million households are off the gas grid and face higher The problem with the previous definition was that it than average energy bills. Of course, winter is a particularly essentially picked out large houses and wealthy people expensive time for them. One of my first duties as can be living in large houses. That was not the right way Energy Minister was to chair the off-grid gas round to tackle fuel poverty. It was also a measure that kept table, not least at the instigation of the all-party group moving; people kept moving in and out of the definition. on off-gas grid, which has been working on this issue. I We are now moving to a better definition, with the launched, at the all-party group’s request, the Buy Oil agreement with those who work in the area. That will Early campaign in September and promulgated a better form the foundation for a new fuel poverty strategy that code of practice for oil suppliers, so that people pay the we will publish later this year, which will be deliverable price advertised, and so on. and on which the public can hold us to account. The group meets every six months, and we will reconvene in May to learn the lessons of this winter. We will have Albert Owen: The Minister makes an important point. the regulators, the advisory bodies, the charitable bodies, There will be issues about whatever calculation we use. people who have worked in oil-buying clubs and However, now that we have moved to a different definition representatives from Northern Ireland, where there have of fuel poverty, will DECC, the Government and other been real difficulties. We will learn the lessons of this 243WH Fuel Poverty11 FEBRUARY 2014 Fuel Poverty 244WH winter again to see what more can be done to improve accounted for some 60% of the affordable warmth the security and affordability of the off-grid fuel supply obligation that was to be delivered by March 2014, so and to share best practice. One of the things on which there is still work to do. There are still affordable we are working is how we can better pool data between warmth targets out there for 2015, and we are now Government agencies to ensure that we better understand extending the scheme to run through to the end of which off-grid households need the most help. March 2017. We are also ensuring that, having considered the working of the scheme, it is better targeted at Roger Williams: I welcome the Minister’s insistence lower-income households. that people are sold, for instance, heating fuel at the I welcome the support of the hon. Member for Ynys price quoted by the supplier, but will he also try to insist Môn (Albert Owen) for shale gas, and I am sorry that that the supplier includes VAT in his quote? When the he will not be able to demonstrate that support for any supplier trades with other wholesalers, he might do so application in his constituency at the moment. No at a price that is minus VAT, but VAT is included in the application has yet been made that would allow him to price that the consumer has to pay. campaign more openly on the scene of an application, but I note what he says. We simply do not know the full Michael Fallon: I will take up that point. It is important potential for shale, so we are not able to estimate the for those who are off-grid that there is as much transparency likely revenues, which is what he was homing in on. I am as possible, so that they understand what the costs are sure that if shale takes off here, as it has taken off in the likely to be. United States, there will be many claims on the additional I will now address some of the individual points that revenues that it brings in. The revenues will, of course, have been raised. The hon. Gentleman drew our attention not only simply be brought into the Treasury and to harder-to-treat homes, which probably lie at the core reallocated outwards to public services; they will also be of the long-term challenge. Getting energy efficiency brought into local communities through the local measures into harder-to-treat homes lies at the heart of community benefits package that the industry has already solving the problem and catching up with the progress agreed. that has been made elsewhere in Europe. I accept that The hon. Gentleman asked about the green deal. those comparisons are not encouraging for us as one of Some 130,000 assessments have now been made through the wealthier member states. the green deal, and it is perfectly true, as I think he said, The hon. Gentleman asked about hypothecating some that not all have taken up green deal finance, but the of the carbon taxes towards this objective. If that were green deal is being taken up. More and more assessments to involve additional spending, the revenue from those are being made, and the scheme is proving successful. taxes would have to be produced from elsewhere, or else The hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) we would become involved in additional borrowing. welcomes the warm home discount, and he asked about None of that is easy at a time when we still face a deficit eligibility. He will be pleased to know that 2 million of more than £100 billion. He asked specifically about households get the warm home discount each year, but extending the gas grid, and the grid is being extended in we have committed to extending the scheme not simply the current seven-year period that runs from 2013 to for 2015-16, but with an additional spend of some 2020. The aim is to connect some 75,000 off-grid homes £320 million. More than 1 million additional low-income each year. Those homes will be reasonably close to the households will therefore receive the payment, without existing grid, but that is expensive and a contribution having to take any action at all. has to be made by the householder, by some other agency or by the local authority. I do not want him to be The hon. Gentleman also asked about oil syndication, under the impression that nothing is happening. I will which we are pursuing through the twice-yearly round take his points back to the transmission operators and table that I chair. We will pick up experience from his the companies, including his view that more should be constituency and from other constituencies to see what done. The aim is to connect more homes to the grid in the Government can do to encourage syndicates. There each successive year. are some good examples of syndication and oil buying in the north-east of England, in Ceredigion and in Chris Williamson: I am grateful to the Minister for Northern Ireland, and I want to see what role the giving way again. Extending the grid is welcome, but is Government can play in incentivising that form of not the key actually to reduce energy demand? Surely, a syndication. huge uplift in investment is needed to address fuel The hon. Member for Sunderland Central said that poverty—in other words, properly insulating people’s she is proud of the previous Labour Government’s homes—using the money that is already in the system. record, but she then outlined the reforms that she wants Unless we can do that, extending the grid will not to make. I am not sure why she should be both proud of address the problem of fuel poverty for millions of Ofgem and determined to abolish it. Her Government people. set up Ofgem, and now they are going to abolish it. I am not sure that she should be proud of that or of having Michael Fallon: I understand that this problem must started with 14 energy suppliers and ending up with the be addressed across a number of fronts. The hon. big six. She must develop her policy for a future Labour Gentleman is right that energy efficiency has a huge Government, if there is ever to be such a thing, in her part to play, which allows me now to address the energy own way. company obligation. The ECO has been criticised, so I I preferred the hon. Lady’s earlier remarks, in which will first address the suggestion that some of those who she said that the Labour Government did not get everything work in the ECO scheme have run out of budget. I am absolutely right. That is probably a good motto for any advised that, by the end of November 2013, published Government. I am not pretending that the current figures from Ofgem showed that approved ECO measures Government have all the answers on fuel poverty, which 245WH Fuel Poverty 11 FEBRUARY 2014 246WH

[Michael Fallon] Welfare Reform is a deep-rooted problem. A lot depends on the state of our housing stock, which needs to be addressed. The 4pm hon. Member for Derby North (Chris Williamson) is right that we need to do more on energy efficiency, but Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): It is a pleasure, we also need to measure the problem better to ensure Mr Sheridan, to have this debate under your chairmanship. that the data that we have are properly matched so that, I want to explore where we are with welfare reform and with all the different schemes, we get help to those who the options for the future. The coalition Government need it most. inherited a broken welfare system that was in desperate I am sure, Mr Sheridan, that you would like me, on need of reform. We have started and are seeing through behalf of all the hon. Members who have spoken, to the most far-reaching reforms in more than half a thank the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire century. The reforms are not about saving money; they for bringing this important subject to the House today. are about saving lives. They are about replacing dependence I assure him that the Government will respond to him with independence. and the other Members who have spoken on all the Let us look at what has been done to date. Labour points that have been raised. This is a serious subject, left the biggest ever peacetime deficit, with £120 million and we are grateful to him for raising it. a day in interest bills. Under Labour, welfare spending increased by 60%, taking inflation into account. That is £3,000 a year for every household in Britain. More than £170 billion was spent on tax credits, four and a half times the cost of the benefits they replaced. By the end, out-of-work benefits were increasing nearly twice as quickly as earnings. That was the toxic legacy left by the Labour party, and that is the out-of-control spending that the Government have fought to keep in check while protecting pensioners with the triple lock. Welfare spending is now falling as a share of GDP. Savings of £25 billion will have been made by the end of this financial year, with £50 billion having been saved by the end of the Parliament. At every turn Labour has been unapologetic. Labour has opposed every single reform, including universal credit, and has provided no ideas. Labour has nothing to say. Indeed, the few policies developed so far are spending pledges, rather than savings. For example, the jobs guarantee will cost a staggering £1 billion. On my count, it is the tenth time that Labour’s bank bonus tax has been spent. To every problem, its answer is the same: more spending, more borrowing, more debt and more welfare. It is small wonder that the Labour party is increasingly known as the welfare party. The Institute for Fiscal Studies says that we need to reduce the benefits bill by a third, but Labour has failed to name even one working age benefit it would cut. Government Members have given thought to the reforms that could be made to promote a greater sense of fairness: fairness to people on welfare, so that they might have independence in place of dependence, and fairness to hard-working people and their families, who expect their taxes to be used to help people escape poverty and welfare, rather than further to enchain them within it. I have been giving thought to how work-based benefits could be reformed, particularly to improve the position of women in the workplace. In our system, industrial injuries benefits cost £907 million a year, while maternity pay costs £2.3 billion. The maternity pay system, however, too often hampers rather than safeguards the position of women in the workplace. There are still too many barriers to hiring women. Too often employers are scared of employing women who may go on maternity leave. Even the Labour peer, Lord Sugar, was moved to say: “We have maternity laws where people are entitled to too much.” 247WH Welfare Reform11 FEBRUARY 2014 Welfare Reform 248WH

He also said that the prospect of women becoming cycle of dependence. I hope that the Northern Ireland pregnant and taking maternity leave puts businesses off Executive will think more carefully about the future, hiring women. and fairness for working people and those not in work. That attitude needs to change, as does the shocking In the absence of any positive ideas from the Labour complexity of the system, which involves complex reclaims party, I hope the Government will consider new reforms though the tax system and leaves people at risk of their like the one I am suggesting. It would promote the role employer going bust or otherwise failing to pay. Women of women in the workplace, increase simplicity and are increasingly self-employed, yet the self-employed security, treat employed and self-employed alike and are worse off with maternity allowance, and injury ensure that maternity and parental leave is paid fairly benefits are sparse indeed. Meanwhile, pay is not even and that the system is funded by the workplaces of the at minimum wage levels. Pay is set at £137 a week, which nation on a long-term sustainable basis. is a far cry from the £220 received by a minimum wage earner for a 35-hour week. To my mind, the system is Kwasi Kwarteng (Spelthorne) (Con) rose— ripe for reform, to safeguard and improve the position of women in the workplace, to increase simplicity and Jim Sheridan (in the Chair): Mr Kwarteng, I notice security, to treat the employed and self-employed alike that you have not registered to speak in today’s debate. and to pay parental leave more fairly. Protocol suggests that, with the agreement of the hon. How can that be done? We should think about a new Gentleman who introduced the debate and the Minister, system of workplace benefits, paid for by the workplaces you can speak. Do you have permission? of the nation. We should set up an at-work scheme—a compulsory pooled risk system along the lines of the Charlie Elphicke indicated assent. Financial Services Compensation Scheme, backed up by the state but funded by business with reference to the The Minister of State, Department for Work and total pay-as-you-earn income tax paid by each business. Pensions (Steve Webb) indicated assent. In return, businesses would see a corresponding cut in their net employers’ national insurance contributions. Jim Sheridan (in the Chair): You have permission, but That way, the cost would not be affected by the number I ask you to leave some time for the Minister. of injuries or the amount of maternity leave that might at any one time affect any one workplace. The at-work scheme would pay out regardless, whether there were no 4.8 pm parental leave absences or many. In that way, the fear of Kwasi Kwarteng (Spelthorne) (Con): I am very grateful the burden of maternity would be reduced, and so too for being allowed to speak in the debate. I am also would the barriers to women in the workplace. The pleased to speak after my hon. Friend the Member for self-employed would contribute on the same basis and Dover (Charlie Elphicke), who is an innovative and be treated in the same way as employed people. Pay for creative thinker on these subjects. I want to say a few leave could more easily be increased from the current words on welfare reform, which is probably the single £137 a week to the minimum wage level of £220, and most important thing that the coalition Government that would ensure that the minimum basic standard are embarking upon, because the principal reason why would be the minimum wage. the coalition came into being was to reduce the deficit. We have seen the toxic legacy left by the Labour party Everyone here knows that welfare spending, including and we have passed welfare reforms to save lives and pensions, is 28% of the entire budget. Surely it makes promote independence in place of dependence. sense, if we are to reduce the deficit, to look at the biggest part of expenditure. Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): The hon. My hon. Friend is right when he says that there was a Gentleman raises an important issue about the future huge problem under the previous Government with of welfare reform. Will he join me in deploring the fact welfare spending. Between 1997 and 2010, it rose by that the current welfare reform measures have still not more than 60% in real terms. Even if pensions are been implemented in Northern Ireland, at a possible excluded, the welfare bill went up by 55% in real terms. cost of more than £1 billion over the next five years? It is right for everyone in the House to realise that that is The Finance Minister there indicated that the Northern a real problem. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Ireland Executive have already lost £15 million. We Member for Dover for bringing the matter up in such a have negotiated good tweaks to the system to suit the timely fashion and for allowing others to contribute to Northern Ireland situation, yet Sinn Fein holds up that this important debate. I do not have much time to reform, at a massive cost to the Northern Ireland block speak, but I want to say that it is disappointing that so grant. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is time for few Labour Members are present, given that they have Northern Ireland to move into line with what is happening said nothing constructive about welfare reform over the elsewhere? past four years. They have opposed all the coalition Government’s messages. [Interruption.] The hon. Member Charlie Elphicke: Yes, I would. It is about fairness to for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) looks at me quizzically, but hard-working people and their families. They pay their it is true. taxes and want to see those taxes used to help people escape poverty, rather than to enchain them within it. Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): The convention for They want their taxes to fund doctors, teachers and half-hour debates is that only two people—the Member nurses, rather than those on welfare. It is also about who secured the debate and the Minister—speak. It is fairness to people on welfare and their having a greater perfectly customary for there not to be anybody else, sense of independence, rather than being locked into a including the shadow Minister, present. 249WH Welfare Reform11 FEBRUARY 2014 Welfare Reform 250WH

Kwasi Kwarteng: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s of the Government during a big, important reform, contribution, but it is extraordinary to say that Members rather than too often appearing to throw rocks from the cannot contribute to debates simply because of convention. sidelines. This is an important matter and I wanted to put something on the record. That is all I have to say. Chris Bryant: We are keen to try to help the Government make universal credit work, but it is difficult so to do if Chris Bryant rose— the Secretary of State is mouthing inanities and presenting such an optimistic version of events that some might Jim Sheridan (in the Chair): Order. Mr Bryant, you construe it not to be entirely true, which is what the also did not register to speak. Do you have the permission Labour party believe has happened. It is a convention of the promoter and the Minister to speak? that people receive absolution only after confessing, and the Government need to own up to a few more of Charlie Elphicke indicated assent. the problems that they are experiencing with universal credit. We would then be more than happy to help them. Steve Webb indicated assent. Another classic example is the bedroom tax. People have different views about whether it is right and proper, 4.10 pm but my argument is that while it might be a legitimate Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): I am grateful, thing if we knew that everyone had smaller properties Mr Sheridan. I also thank the hon. Member for Dover to move to, in truth, when those smaller properties are (Charlie Elphicke) for securing this debate. If it had not available, it is a fairly cruel and vindictive assault on been an hour-and-a-half debate, it would have been some of the most vulnerable people in society, including more conventional to have several people speaking. I hundreds of thousands of disabled people. Even more say to the hon. Member for Spelthorne (Kwasi Kwarteng) bizarrely, the Government managed to mess that up by that it is not only a convention, but a rule of the House not spotting the loophole in their legislation. On the that only two people are allowed to speak in these same day, three different Ministers said different things: half-hour debates. We are therefore engaging in a rather one said that only 3,000 to 5,000 would be affected; unusual practice this afternoon, which is why things are another said in the House of Lords that the number slightly confusing. The hon. Member for Dover gave a would be insignificant; and a third Minister said that rather short speech—the debate’s promoter normally she had no idea how many people would be affected. takes 15 minutes—and he devoted quite a lot of it to Through freedom of information requests, which the saying nasty things about the Labour party. I understand Government should have submitted, we already know why he wants to do that, but I want to correct some that, from the third of local authorities who have replied, impressions. 16,000 households are affected. In other words, it is The Labour party has been engaged in a process of likely that some 48,000 to 50,000 people are affected. welfare reform and was when in government. One of The Labour party is engaged in a process of welfare the key things that we wanted to achieve was ensuring reform. We always have been. We want to make welfare that work pays. In my constituency, which has historically work, so that it both supports those who desperately high levels of people on one form or other of sickness need it at key times in their lives and gives people an benefit, people have been trapped in a style of poverty opportunity to stand on their own two feet. In your that ends up being inherited from one generation to the constituency, Mr Sheridan, and in mine, the vast majority next. Opposition Members are desperately keen to ensure of people are not looking for handouts; they are looking that we have a system under which work always pays. to stand on their own feet, to put food on the table for That is why we supported the introduction of the national their family and to provide a better future for their minimum wage, which we see as part of welfare reform, children. and why we introduced tax credits as another means of making it possible for people to get into work. 4.16 pm I do not accept the argument of the hon. Member for Spelthorne that Labour has never been in favour of The Minister of State, Department for Work and welfare reform. Indeed, key elements of what the Pensions (Steve Webb): I congratulate my hon. Friend Government are doing now are right. The move towards the Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) on securing universal credit is right. The Government have been too this wide-ranging debate, which has actually been quite ambitious in the time scale that they have set themselves, refreshing, because we so often get caught up in the and it would help the Government’s cause were they a minutiae of a clause, amendment or fine detail and it is bit more honest about the fact that the scheme is neither good to get back to first principles and the context of on time nor on budget and that a great amount of what the Government have done over the past four money has been wasted. Ministers have not yet made years. I also enjoyed his blue-skies thinking about workplace key decisions, such as when somebody goes on to universal and maternity benefits and so on. I will try to address credit, whether their children will be entitled to free both those issues, while providing some reflections on school meals. At the moment, there is a difference his idea for workplace benefits. between those on in-work benefits and those on out-of-work The context that my hon. Friend described was one benefits. The latter’s children get free school meals, but where, for every £3 that the Government received, they the former’s do not. Universal credit does not recognise were spending £4. There is nothing progressive or fair the difference between the two, which is a key policy about saying that we will pay for a higher standard of issue that will have to be determined. living for ourselves now and expect our children to meet the bill. The biggest task that we faced—as my hon. Charlie Elphicke: The Labour party initially voted Friend the Member for Spelthorne (Kwasi Kwarteng) against universal credit. Labour should be more supportive said, this was one of the reasons for forming the coalition— 251WH Welfare Reform11 FEBRUARY 2014 Welfare Reform 252WH was to provide the country with a stable Government at agree with his goals. I absolutely agree that we need a a time of economic crisis and to try to get the nation’s system that is fair for women; that we need to think finances on an even keel, which has required a series of hard about anything in the system that makes an employer difficult decisions, particularly because social security less likely to employ a woman of childbearing age; and spending is the biggest area of Government spending, that we clearly want the system to work for self-employed every one of which was opposed by Labour, but only women. He has made some important points. one of which it now says that it will reverse. There is a As the system currently works, however, 93% of the distinct lack of consistency. cost of statutory maternity pay is refunded to employers. I am pretty sure that the record will show—the hon. In fact, more than 100% is refunded to small firms. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) will correct me if Small firms that take on a woman who becomes pregnant I am wrong—that Labour voted against the Welfare and goes on maternity leave will get back all the maternity Reform Act 2013 on Second Reading. He may not pay that they pay out, plus what is essentially a handling recall, but I am pretty sure that Labour did—it may charge—another 3% on top. Even a large employer gets have voted against it on Third Reading, which is even 92% or thereabouts of reimbursement. worse. The 2013 Act introduced universal credit, so it is If an employer is reluctant to take on a woman who a bit rich to say that Labour supports universal credit might have a child, therefore, the pure finances should when it voted against the legislation that introduced it. not make a huge difference. Clearly, there is a bureaucracy That shows no credibility. issue with the reclaiming and so on, and we are happy The hon. Gentleman may say that Labour has been to look at whether that can be streamlined, but the basic engaged in welfare reform for the past four years, but it principle is that the employers get the lion’s share of the has only said what it is against. It is against our getting money back. The thing that might put them off, as my the books balanced by the measures that we have taken, hon. Friend said in his speech, is the thought, “Well, I but the positive agenda has largely been avoided. On the employ this person. They might not be there in some odd occasion that we get a positive suggestion, it often months’ time. I might have to provide maternity cover, involves spending more money, not less. A humane retraining and so on,”but however we reimburse maternity welfare system during a time of austerity is a challenging pay, that will still be a feature of the system. task. One would have hoped that the party that paints I am not therefore sure that having a collectivised—I itself as progressive would have engaged constructively hesitate to use the word, but my hon. Friend knows over the past four years in how to design such a system, what I mean—system of insurance is any different but we have essentially heard nothing on that front. substantively for the employer. Either way, employers My hon. Friend the Member for Dover is right that are getting reimbursed—the costs are being met and are the driver of the reforms that my right hon. Friend the not in essence falling on the employer. Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and the My hon. Friend’s proposal is interesting and I am ministerial team have brought forward has absolutely grateful to him for suggesting it, but one of my worries been fiscal rectitude, but it has also been about more arises from something that I have learnt as a Minister. than that. My right hon. Friend has said—I do not Whenever we set up a new scheme, we have new think that I am revealing any secrets here—that he did infrastructure, bureaucracy and sets of rules. If we had not come into his present role simply to cut, but rather the levy—the at-work scheme that he described—we to reform. During difficult times, we are reforming and would have to define the new tax base, have a new levy bringing together a fractured system. Why should people collection mechanism, work out who was in and who have to go to Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs for was out, have appeals and all that kind of stuff. There is tax credits, to the local council for housing benefit and always a dead weight to such things. Simply setting up to the Department for Work and Pensions for income new infrastructure costs money. I would have to be support? Why should there not be a single system? One convinced that we were getting something back for it. of the fatal flaws of tax credits, which the hon. Member for Rhondda praised, is that, because the right hon. In essence, my hon. Friend is proposing that, instead Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown)—the of the general taxpayer paying into the pot and employers previous Chancellor and then Prime Minister—wanted handing out statutory maternity pay, which is reimbursed to pretend that it was not welfare, it was claimed that by the Government from the general taxpayer—the they were negative tax. They were nothing of the sort. current system—we have a new levy on employers, They were social security benefits, but paid over the although he recognises that he does not want a new jobs course of a year. People’s needs, however, arise on a tax, so that it is offset by a reduction in something else weekly or monthly basis. They cannot wait for end-year that employers pay and the tax in that world is neutral reconciliation and a following-year clawback. overall. However, he then says that he wants the rate not to be some £130 a week, but to be £200 and something a The beauty of universal credit is that it is real time. It week. meets people’s needs when they happen, rather than saying at the end of the year, “Oh, guess what? We My hon. Friend was commendably brief, so I apologise underpaid you,”or, more often, “Guess what? We overpaid if I misunderstood, but I was not clear where that extra you three years ago by several thousand quid. Please money would come from. If we pay women on maternity may we have it back?” That shambles will be over as we leave double, someone must pay for it. If he does not introduce universal credit. want that to be an extra burden on firms, paying for it will simply be a tax increase. That might be the right thing Chris Bryant: Will the Minister give way? to do, to increase taxes to pay for it, but it is an increase.

Steve Webb: I will not, because it is the debate of my Charlie Elphicke: Part of the reason for raising the hon. Friend the Member for Dover. I want to respond rate is to bring it into line with the self-employed to some of his specific ideas on workplace benefits. I position. Also, however, most work places have the 253WH Welfare Reform11 FEBRUARY 2014 Welfare Reform 254WH

[Charlie Elphicke] important issue. We must ensure, however, that the social security system reflects the labour market as it is extra maternity leave as well, yet a small number of less now and not as it was after the second world war. We good employers do not top up the statutory amount. need to reflect on the fact that there are growing numbers The idea is to raise the threshold, so that women on of, first, women working and, secondly, self-employed maternity leave are overall in a better position. women. The Department is not currently doing work in this area, because we have our hands full with reform, Steve Webb: I appreciate that my hon. Friend would but it is always good to look at such things. like to make the scheme more generous, but my sense is that that is potentially quite a substantial cost. If we Charlie Elphicke: Part of my thinking is that we are spend £2 billion already and he wants to double the about to have a revolution with the whole concept of rate, is that another £2 billion? I do not know. Without shared parental leave, so that issue of men versus women more detail, I could not say, but it might be a substantial in the workplace will tend to blur. That might be a good cost that we have to think through. time to look at reworking the system in this way, to On the important issue of self-employed women, the encourage and help parents in the workplace. dilemma is that if they have chosen to be self-employed, they are paying class 2 national insurance of about Steve Webb: My hon. Friend is right, and the coalition £2.70 a week, while their employed sisters are paying can be proud of the shared parental leave approach and national insurance of 12%, or whatever the rate is, as an for rethinking the nature of what happens after a child employee, while their employer is paying another 13.8%. is born and whether it is mum, dad or a combination of The best part of 25% of wages is raised in national the two who take time off. My hon. Friend is also right insurance from the employed earner, while £2.70 something to encourage us to think outside departmental silos: the a week comes from the self-employed—or at class 4, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills does depending on how much she is earning. The amount parental leave, but the Department for Work and Pensions going into the system from the self-employed is vastly does maternity pay, and so on. He makes a welcome lower; the maternity provision for the self-employed, link. I am not convinced that his scheme is necessarily however, is only a bit lower for some women. affordable, because of the additional cost involved, but he makes an important link. In that first six weeks, when we are on 90% of earnings, the employed earner could get more, but some I have a final word of encouragement to employers, self-employed women get more than their employed who may be listening to our proceedings. About 10 years counterparts, because of the detail of the rules. There is ago, less than half of mothers who went on maternity an issue about some women who pay voluntary class 2 leave came back and worked in the same job; that figure at two or three quid a week for a period of time, but was about 40%, but it is now 80%. The norm now for an then become entitled to maternity allowance running employer who takes on a woman who goes on maternity into thousands, having only put in £50 or £100 into the leave is that—four times out of five—she will come system. There is a worry that the system is possibly too back to the job for which she was trained, in which she lax in that area and we might need to think about it. is experienced and to which she can contribute. It is absolutely right that self-employed women get Likewise, we now find that three quarters of women proper maternity provision, which is what the maternity return to work within 12 to 18 months of having their allowance is for. Relative to what they put into the baby. There is a norm: if someone takes on a woman of system, however, what they get out of it is a fantastic childbearing age, the odds are that she will come back rate of return compared with an employed earner. An to the same job within 12 to 18 months. We need to employed earner is putting far more in, while the employer educate employers about the fact that, if they do not is also putting in. employ women of childbearing age, they are depriving themselves of talented people who contribute to the On the tax base for my hon. Friend’s idea, he proposes work force. Not employing such women is clearly a bad that all firms should contribute. Unless the self-employed thing, not only from a social point of view, but from an are also going to contribute, they will either benefit economic point of view. without contributing, or we are talking about another I congratulate my hon. Friend on raising the issue levy on the self-employed as well. Having chosen to be and my hon. Friend the Member for Spelthorne, who self-employed, people often change, because of the lack serves on the Select Committee now and is thinking of burdens, costs and levies of being an employed hard about such issues, on his contribution. We have earner. We would have to think about whether we are done a huge amount of reform in this Parliament, and distorting the choice between becoming an employed we want to see our reforms through and deliver them, earner or a self-employed person if we made those because we want our legacy to be a system that, as my changes. hon. Friend the Member for Dover said, encourages I do not want to end on a discouraging note, because independence, not dependence, that is fiscally responsible, my hon. Friend has raised an important challenge. We but that works with the grain of people, so that those do not want to be in a situation in which employers, who want to work hard and get on are encouraged and through prejudice or for other reasons, are disinclined enabled to do so, rather than being trapped on benefit, to employ women of childbearing age. That is clearly an which was the risk of the system that we inherited. 255WH 11 FEBRUARY 2014 UK Citizenship 256WH

UK Citizenship quote no less a person than the hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg), who, as I think most 4.29 pm people know, is a Conservative MP and not someone who could be described as a bleeding-heart liberal. On Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) Report, when clause 60 was added to the Immigration (Lab): I am grateful for the opportunity to air this issue Bill, he said: in the House this afternoon. Although the power to “I am perhaps rather romantic in my view of what it means to deprive British nationals of citizenship, amplified in be a British subject. I always though that Palmerston got it right clause 60 of the Immigration Bill, might seem to some a on the Don Pacifico affair—the ‘civis Romanus sum’ principle. mere legal technicality, important issues lie behind it. Once any one of us has a passport that says we are British, we are Clause 60 is wrong-headed, and I hope that airing the as British as anybody else, whether they were born here or got issues this afternoon will lead people in another place to their passport five minutes ago. It is incredibly important that throw the clause out of the Bill. there is equality before the law for all Her Majesty’s subjects who The clause provides for the Secretary of State to are living in this country and have right of residence here. render a person stateless by depriving him or her of I worry that if we give the Government the ability to take passports away from a certain category of British subject but not their nationality where citizenship has been gained through from others, it will create a potential unfairness and a second naturalisation and where category of citizen.”—[Official Report, 30 January 2014; Vol. 574, “the Secretary of State is satisfied that the deprivation is conducive c. 1086.] to the public good because the person, while having that citizenship That goes to the heart of one of the problems with the status, has conducted him or herself in a manner which is seriously legislation. prejudicial to the vital interests of the United Kingdom”. We should not have, as it were, class A and class B First, I would remind the House that we are talking British citizens. In communities such as mine, the fear about terror suspects. Nowadays in Parliament, saying will be that although this has started with suspected that someone is suspected of terrorist activity is enough terrorists, where will it end, once the state decides that for the political class to assume that that person does British citizenship is not indivisible? The Home Secretary not deserve due process. It is worth reminding the has said, rather unfortunately, that citizenship is a privilege, House that those people have not actually been convicted not a right, but citizenship is not a privilege or a right; it of any crime. Sadly, I have to say, the currency of is a fact. Deciding that it is not a fact and that the state political debate about terrorism has been so debased, can chop and change when it comes to the light in first under Tony Blair and now under the coalition, that which it regards someone’s citizenship, is, I believe—as alleged terrorists are now routinely deemed to be the does the hon. Member for North East Somerset—a only category of alleged criminal who are not allowed dangerous road to go down. due process—even alleged paedophiles have to have due process, but not alleged terrorists. Another problem with the proposal is that in stripping a terrorism suspect of their nationality, there is a danger My view is that if someone is suspected of terrorism, that we could render them stateless. That problem was the obvious step is to put them on trial. I am supported raised on Report. The Secretary of State argued that in that view by no less a person than the late Lord “we are talking about a situation in which they”— Kingsland, the former Conservative shadow Lord Chancellor, who said in 2002: that is, the person deprived of citizenship— “would be able to acquire statehood from somewhere else.”—[Official “If we identify someone as a person proposing to commit a Report, 30 January 2014; Vol. 574, c. 1040.] serious terrorist offence…surely the obligation is on us to deal with that person. If we simply deport him, we shall be handing However, even the most cursory glance at clause 60 on…this terrorist problem to another state which may not have reveals that the provision is not limited in that way, but the same capability of dealing with it…It cannot be a proper allows individuals to be rendered stateless without reference response to the terrorist threat to refuse to deal with it ourselves”.— to the possibility of securing citizenship elsewhere. The [Official Report, House of Lords, 9 October 2002; Vol. 639, Home Secretary said: c. 277-278.] “The whole point of the measure is to be able to remove That was the view of the Conservative party in 2002, certain people”.—[Official Report, 30 January 2014; Vol. 574, but clearly things have changed in the intervening time. c. 1043.] Being realistic, we know that the security services That assertion raises a number of important questions. have always resisted trial for many suspected terrorists I am interested to hear from the Minister how the because—this is my understanding—they do not want Government will remove people who have no nationality to make public their wire-tapping and other surveillance and no travel documents. methods. I have always found that argument dubious, Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): The hon. Lady and it is even less credible post the Snowden revelations, is making an important point. If another state were to which have revealed to us all more about state surveillance remove citizenship from a naturalised citizen who was than we ever wanted to know. Instead of due process, originally from the UK, does she envisage that it would the security services and their political adherents in be at all likely that our country would be enthusiastic both parties prefer secret courts, detention without trial about offering citizenship to that person? If we would and now this attempt to strip away citizenship. not, why should we imagine that other countries would That leads me to one of the big problems with offer citizenship to someone who has had their citizenship clause 60 of the Immigration Bill: it creates two different revoked by this Government? classes of British citizenship. There are those, such as myself, who are British citizens because we were born Ms Abbott: The hon. Gentleman makes an important here, and there are those, including some of the people point. The Government want to be able to move on who work for me, who are British citizens by naturalisation. people whom they consider a threat to the state, but We will have two classes of British citizens. That is a why should other countries accept someone who has dangerous road to go down. In support of that view I been stripped of citizenship here in the UK? 257WH UK Citizenship11 FEBRUARY 2014 UK Citizenship 258WH

Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): It is even worse, is it “I am a naturalised British citizen and the clause therefore not? Potentially, the only countries that would offer applies to me. I support it wholeheartedly…Perhaps my right nationality to a person reckoned to be a suspected hon. Friend should go even further…and introduce similar sanctions terrorist would be countries where we probably would against anyone who is British, irrespective of how they got British citizenship”. not want that person to end up, because they would by definition be countries that sponsor terrorism. We would The Home Secretary responded: end up with people in this country who we would “My hon. Friend makes an important point about…the desire simply be keeping completely stateless, without any role that we have in the House to ensure that we can take appropriate action against people who are acting in a manner that is not or standing. We cannot simply banish them to France conducive to the public good”.—[Official Report, 30 January as we would have done in the middle ages. 2014; Vol. 574, c. 1042.] One of the problems with the new clause is that it Ms Abbott: My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. opens the door to further arbitrary deprivation of In saying that, I am accepting an argument that I do not citizenship. It must be wrong in principle to create two really support, namely that somehow, because someone classes of citizenship. It is wrong in practice because it is alleged to be a terrorist, that makes them a terrorist. will create a class of stateless people who, in practice, Even if we accept that logic, we will not be making the cannot be moved out of the UK. It seems that the country any safer, because we cannot move such people coalition Government introduced the clause as a short-term on anywhere. strategy to see off a related but separate clause covering Statelessness is a notion that the British Government the ability of foreign criminals to resist deportation on were trying to move away from for a long time. In 1930, the grounds that they have a right to family life. I Britain was among the first to ratify the convention on suggest that the civil liberties of British citizens are too certain questions relating to the conflict of nationality, important to be tampered with for short-term political which included a protocol relating to certain cases of advantage. statelessness. The universal declaration of human rights, Coming as I do from a family in which many members which was adopted by the UN General Assembly with of my parents’ generation obtained British citizenship UK support as far back as 1948, says: through naturalisation, and representing as I do a part “Everyone has the right to a nationality…No one shall be of London where many of my constituents obtained arbitrarily deprived of his nationality”, British citizenship through naturalisation, I am yet that is what clause 60 of the Immigration Bill seeks naturally wary of any move to create two classes of to do. British citizenship, as that could affect so many of my constituents and even members of my family. The clause Deprivation of citizenship is a severe sanction and was thought up in a hurry, and as with so much legislation statelessness is a separate and even more brutal punishment that is though up in a hurry, it is deeply flawed. I with unique practical and legal consequences. Although sincerely hope that when members of the other place it is an aspiration of human rights activists that fundamental consider it, they will take it out of the Bill. rights such as the right to life and the prohibition on torture should attach to all human beings, the reality is 4.44 pm that we live in a world deeply divided along national borders, in which it is notoriously difficult to access The Minister for Security and Immigration (James redress for, or protection on, human rights matters Brokenshire): I welcome you, Mr Sheridan, to the without nationality. Chair. I congratulate the hon. Member for Hackney Going further forward, the UN convention on the North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) on securing reduction of statelessness, which is where we are supposed this debate, and I respect the passion with which she to be going, was adopted in 1961 and ratified by the UK made her points this afternoon. I hope that my in 1966. It stipulates that, absent circumstances of fraudulent comments will reassure her and clarify some of the application or disloyalty toward the contracting state, misapprehensions she has raised in the context of deprivations and renunciations of citizenship will take the measures that have been introduced into the effect only where a person has or subsequently obtains Immigration Bill, which is starting its consideration in another nationality in replacement. The clause moves another place. away from that. This country has spent a generation I welcome the opportunity to correct some of the trying to move away from statelessness, but we are now issues surrounding the powers to deprive a person of going in reverse. citizenship and the Government’s proposed legislative changes in the Bill. As the Home Secretary outlined in We may not have seen the end of this matter; that is her speech to the House last month, depriving people of why the other place should look at the provision. We their citizenship is a very serious matter, and the hon. had the Home Secretary saying that citizenship was a Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington privilege, not a right, but citizenship is a fact. During rightly emphasised that in her contribution this afternoon. the same debate, Alok Sharma MP— It is one of the most serious sanctions a state can take against a person. The decision requires considerable Jim Sheridan (in the Chair): Order. It would be preferable research, evidence gathering and consultation by officials to mention hon. Members not by name, but by their throughout the Government, and the Home Secretary constituency. herself reviews and signs it off to ensure that it is proportionate and necessary. The issue also concerns Ms Abbott: The hon. Member for Reading West national security and our attempts to remove dangerous (Alok Sharma) raised with the Home Secretary the individuals from the UK. question of whether we could extend the stripping away It may be helpful if I start by outlining the Government’s of citizenship from naturalised citizenship. He said: existing provisions and powers, and the safeguards that 259WH UK Citizenship11 FEBRUARY 2014 UK Citizenship 260WH already exist, before going on to explain the purpose of Secondly, any person deprived of their citizenship the proposals in the Immigration Bill and addressing has a full right of appeal. Grounds for appeal can some of the hon. Lady’s specific questions. include both the legality of the action and the merits of the Secretary of State’s decision. Such appeals are heard Ms Abbott: The Minister will be aware that in response at either the first-tier tribunal—the immigration and to a freedom of information request, we now know that asylum chamber—or, where issues of national security between 2010 and 2013, the Home Secretary revoked are relevant, at the Special Immigration Appeals the passports of 16 British nationals under the current Commission, or SIAC. In both cases, any onward challenge section 40 of the British Nationality Act 1981 on public can be to the Court of Appeal or other higher courts. good grounds. At least five of those people were born in That is not being changed by the wider, necessary the UK and one had been resident for almost 50 years. changes to the appeals system contained in the Immigration When the Home Secretary was asked during Report Bill. stage of the Immigration Bill what happened to those Thirdly, deprivation action is taken only against those 16 people, she did not provide specific information. Can individuals who meet the thresholds that I have outlined. the Minister provide information now, or at least write We do not and cannot take deprivation action against to me with an explanation? family members—husbands, wives or children—on the basis of their relationship to the person being deprived. James Brokenshire: I will certainly address some of the hon. Lady’s points, but I am unable to provide Finally, let me be clear: this Government do not take further details about specific cases. She is right about deprivation action lightly. There is a high threshold and existing powers being utilised. Since 2006, there have only a small number of individuals are deprived of their been 27 examples of that. The powers have their origin citizenship. As I said, since 2006, 27 people have been in legislation dating back to the first world war—the deprived under these conducive powers. hon. Lady looked at some of the history—when provision The hon. Lady highlighted the new provisions in the was made for the revocation of citizenship if a naturalised Immigration Bill. Clause 60 is the relevant clause that person was suspected of treasonable activities. she touched on: it seeks to address the most serious The current position under section 40 of the British deprivation cases where we have previously been prevented Nationality Act 1981, as amended by the previous from taking action because it may leave the individual Labour Government in 2002 and 2006, is that the stateless. At present, we cannot deprive someone of Home Secretary can deprive a British citizen of their citizenship even in circumstances where an individual citizenship in two scenarios. The first is when the person could acquire another nationality or reacquire their acquired it using fraud, false representation or concealment previous one. of a material fact. That essentially means that they used We recognise the need to avoid statelessness and are deception to obtain citizenship for which they were not committed to maintaining our international obligations. eligible or, had we known the full and true facts, we However, we do not believe that that should be at a cost would not have granted the application. In such cases, to the national security of the UK. It is a fact that the person involved may be left stateless. The second article 8 (3) of 1961 UN convention on the reduction of scenario is when the Home Secretary is satisfied that statelessness specifies that a state may retain the right to deprivation is “conducive to the public good” and the deprive any person of their nationality, regardless of person would not be left stateless as a result. We want to whether it would leave them stateless, if the person has amend the second of those two conditions to ensure that individuals who are a serious threat to this country “conducted himself in a manner seriously prejudicial to the vital interests of the State”, cannot retain citizenship simply because deprivation would leave them stateless. if, at the time of ratification, those grounds exist in As I said, a Labour Government amended the British domestic law. Nationality Act 1981 in 2002 and 2006. That provided Therefore, when the UK ratified that UN convention, for deprivation when it was “conducive to the public it made such a declaration that allowed for the prospect good”. That is a broad power which gives the Home of leaving a person stateless in certain circumstances. Secretary discretion to respond to changing threats, and Those circumstances, as they existed in the domestic covers cases involving national security, including espionage, law of the time, include the ability to deprive a naturalised war crimes, serious and organised crime and unacceptable person of their citizenship—regardless of whether it behaviours such as the glorification of terrorism. Conducive would leave them stateless—when an individual has deprivation can be pursued against any British citizen, conducted themselves in a manner seriously prejudicial including British-born citizens, as a result of the changes to the vital interests of Her Britannic Majesty. That is a introduced in 2002. In practice, because a person cannot high threshold for cases involving national security and be left stateless, it applies only to those who would have those who take up arms against British or allied forces. another nationality when they are deprived. That provision Clause 60 of the Immigration Bill seeks to recreate that would remain and is unchanged by our proposals. very set of circumstances. A number of safeguards are in place for deprivation cases and those will remain, which is important to Ms Abbott: Many of us are puzzled about why the understand. First, any decision to deprive will arise Minister calls in aid national security in making people only after extensive research and understanding of an stateless, if making people stateless would in effect individual’s previous behaviour, any potential human make it almost impossible to move them to another rights issues and the threats that they pose to the UK. country. Some people cite the case of Bilal al-Berjawi, Officials from the Home Office and other Departments who was a British-Lebanese citizen whom we did make are consulted before the information is reviewed and a stateless when he was overseas. His solicitor has argued final decision made by the Home Secretary. that 261WH UK Citizenship11 FEBRUARY 2014 UK Citizenship 262WH

[Ms Abbott] Any citizen can be deprived if the Secretary of State considers it conducive to the public good and the person “the process of deprivation of citizenship made it easier for the would not be left stateless as a result, so I do not accept US to then designate Sakr”— the hon. Lady’s suggestion. who accompanied Bilal al-Berjawi— I understand that Members are concerned about “as an enemy combatant, to whom the UK owes no responsibility instances where deprivation action takes places when a whatsoever.” person is outside the UK, and I hear the hon. Lady’s This man was killed in a drone attack. Are we really point. I restate that the Home Secretary takes deprivation talking about making people stateless when they are action only when she considers it is appropriate and overseas in order to make them vulnerable targets of that may mean doing so when an individual is abroad, drone attacks by the United States? which prevents their return and reduces the risk to the UK. That individual would still have a full right of James Brokenshire: May I directly address the suggestion appeal and the ability to resolve their nationality issues that any action on deprivation of citizenship is linked, accordingly. It is often the travel abroad to terrorist in any way, to the sort of activity that the hon. Lady training camps or to countries with internal fighting highlighted? I strenuously deny that. They are two that is the tipping point—the crucial piece of the jigsaw— clearly separate issues and there is nothing to indicate, that instigates the need to act. in any respect, that they are linked. It is true that people have been deprived while outside Duncan Hames: The Minister refers to the right of the UK, but I do not accept that it is a particular tactic. appeal, and he outlined earlier the courts available for It is simply an operational reality that in some cases the that process. Will he confirm that it would therefore, in information comes to light when the person is outside some cases, be an appeal that is conducted under closed the UK or that it is the final piece of the picture, material proceedings? confirming what has been suspected. In other cases, we may determine that the most appropriate response to James Brokenshire: As I indicated, a route is open to the actions of an individual is to deprive that person SIAC to consider that, and closed material proceedings while they are outside the UK. Equally, there are cases could be applicable in certain circumstances—not where it can be determined that it is appropriate to take automatically; it would depend on the nature of the action to deprive individuals while they are inside the UK. individual case. It is appropriate, however, that there is that right of appeal and right of challenge, and SIAC It is not true that all those deprived under the clause effectively provides that ability to do so. will be stateless. Some may be able to acquire or reacquire another nationality. In those cases, where the individual I reassure Members that the new power would apply has been deprived while in the UK, we would seek to only to those who are naturalised citizens—crucially, remove that individual from the UK once they had not children, who are not able to naturalise as British acquired another nationality. However, the clause is not citizens, nor anyone who is British by birth or registration. limited to those cases and can be applicable to those That is because our original declaration reasonably who cannot acquire another nationality. In that event, it limits action only to those who have sought the privilege is open to them to make an application to stay in the of British citizenship but then betray the values and UK as a stateless person. laws that they swore to maintain. The UK would continue to comply with the provisions Ultimately, the new power will be used sparingly. It of the 1961 UN convention on the reduction of statelessness, will be relevant only in a small subset of the most regarding the rights of stateless persons. Where appropriate, serious deprivation cases, where we are currently we could regularise a person’s position in the UK by precluded from taking action because those people granting limited leave—possibly with conditions relating would be left stateless. Our proposed clause is a targeted to access to public funds and their right to work and and proportionate measure that protects the security of study. the UK without jeopardising our international obligations. It provides for effective rights of appeal and for upholding I come back to the hon. Lady’s point about the the 1961 UN convention on the reduction of statelessness. concept, as she described it, of two-tier citizenship. We do not accept that there is, or will be, a two-tier citizenship I am grateful to the hon. Member for Hackney North system. The proposal merely reflects the fact that there and Stoke Newington for bringing the matter to the are differing routes to citizenship, and therefore, different Chamber this afternoon and for enabling me to set out actions permissible depending on the actions of the more details on the proposals. As she has rightly identified, person concerned. The power to deprive a person of this matter is before the other place, and I am sure that citizenship, as I have explained, already exists and certain it will give the issues careful scrutiny and consideration. aspects can only be applied depending on a person’s route to citizenship. Naturalised or registered citizens 5pm can be deprived if they obtained it by means of fraud, Sitting adjourned without Question put (Standing Order false representation or concealment of a material fact. No.10(13)). 43WS Written Statements11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Statements 44WS Written Statements HOME DEPARTMENT

Tuesday 11 February 2014 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill

ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE The Minister for Crime Prevention (Norman Baker): Elexon Ltd (Contingent Liability) Currently schedule 7 to the Government of Wales Act 2006 includes an exception to the National Assembly’s competence in relation to “anti-social behaviour orders”. The Minister of State, Department of Energy and As a result, an amendment to schedule 7 to that Act is Climate Change (Michael Fallon): The Energy Act 2013 necessary to ensure the exception’s continuing operation makes provision for electricity market reform (EMR) following the reforms made in this Bill. measures which are intended to ensure sufficient investment In line with the devolution settlement, this amendment comes forward to replace old generation plant with new should have the same scope as the current exception. low-carbon generation. Criminal justice is not devolved to the Assembly but the The Act enables amendments to the transmission exception is necessary to make clear that in legislating licence and the balancing and settlement code (BSC) to about social welfare or any other transferred subject, allow Elexon Ltd to undertake settlement functions for the Assembly does not have the competence to make EMR. To ensure these functions can be discharged provision for orders equivalent to those first created by effectively and on time, Elexon Ltd has begun preparatory the Crime and Disorder Act 1998. As this Bill abolishes work to put in place the necessary arrangements. these orders and repeals the relevant sections of the Elexon’s existing role, expertise and experience will 1998 Act—among other things—an amendment to help ensure that settlement systems are delivered in a the exception was also necessary as a consequence. The manner that reduces administrative burdens for suppliers, amendment maintains the existing scope by relating for generators, the CfD counterparty and capacity market only to orders that deal with the kinds of behaviour that settlement body—thereby reducing costs to consumers. could have been restricted under the existing regime and Reflecting the critical nature of this preparatory work, which we would reasonably regard as part of the criminal I am writing to inform the House of a departmental justice system. minute which will be presented to Parliament today, In the Government’s evidence to the Silk commission giving notice of a contingent liability for the issuing of in March this year, we highlighted that there was some indemnity provisions to Elexon Ltd for actions it undertakes confusion as to how the current exception should be during the settlement system set-up phase. interpreted. Since submitting that evidence, we have We believe it appropriate to offer an indemnity for concluded that the exception should be interpreted claims that could arise. This is because Elexon Ltd is a narrowly, to mean the subject matter of orders under company that operates on a not-for-profit basis and is the Crime and Disorder Act 1998. The amendment is funded by parties to the BSC. In the absence of an designed to reflect that conclusion. indemnity, any costs would need to be passed on to the parties to the BSC. As this group is not identical to EMR participants, passing on costs to BSC parties HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION would not be appropriate. The indemnity would cover costs over and above IPSA Supplementary Estimate 2013-14 those reclaimed by Elexon Ltd from insurers or through contractual arrangements with their service providers. The indemnity would not extend to any losses arising Mr Charles Walker (Broxbourne): The Speaker’s where Elexon Ltd is shown to have been wilfully negligent Committee for the IPSA is established under the or for claims brought by employees of Elexon Ltd. Parliamentary Standards Act 2009. The Committee is We judge the likelihood of the indemnity being invoked reviewing IPSA’s draft supplementary estimate and will against the Department to be low. It is not possible to announce whether it is satisfied that it is consistent with provide a meaningful assessment of the scale of the the efficient and cost-effective discharge by the IPSA of potential liability. its functions before the supplementary estimate is laid before the House. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE Hong Kong (Sino/British Joint Declaration) LGBCE Supplementary Estimate 2013-14 The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague): The latest report on the implementation of the Sino/British joint declaration on Mr Gary Streeter (South West Devon): The Hong Kong was published today. Copies have been Speaker’s Committee on the Electoral Commission is placed in the Library of the House. A copy of the report established under the Political Parties, Elections and is also available on the Foreign and Commonwealth Referendum Act (PPERA) 2000. Under paragraph 11, Office website (www.gov.uk/government/organisations/ schedule 1 of the Local Democracy,Economic Development foreign-commonwealth-office). The report covers the and Construction Act 2009 it must review the Local period from 1 July to 31 December 2013. I recommend GovernmentBoundaryCommissionforEngland’s(LGBCE) the report to the House. estimate before it is laid before the House and decide 45WS Written Statements11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Statements 46WS whether it is satisfied that the estimate is consistent with The Committee has approved the draft supplementary the economical, efficient and effective discharge by the estimate without modification, in line with the advice Commission of its functions. provided to it under statute by HM Treasury. 5P Petitions11 FEBRUARY 2014 Petitions 6P

The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Petition Commons urges the hospital to think of local constituents who are affected by this price increase and reconsider Tuesday 11 February 2014 their decision. And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Nic Dakin, Official Report, 21 January 2014; Vol. 574, c. 268.] OBSERVATIONS [P001315] Observations from the Secretary of State for Health: HEALTH National Health Service organisations have the autonomy to make decisions locally on the provision of car parking Scunthorpe Hospital Car Parking Charges to patients, visitors and staff to reflect local situations. The Petition of residents of Scunthorpe, Patients whose healthcare needs require frequent or Declares that the Petitioners are very concerned that extended access to hospitals have a fundamental right car parking prices at Scunthorpe General Hospital have to fair and appropriate car parking concessions and we been increased from September 2013. expect hospital trusts to deliver them.

525W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 526W

Mr Goodwill: The Department for the Environment, Written Answers to Food and Rural Affairs and the Home Department have given presentations to the Government Working Questions Group on the use they made of remotely piloted aircraft systems. For details in respect of the systems they have used and the policies supported, I would refer you to Tuesday 11 February 2014 the Secretary of State for the Home Department, my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May) and the Secretary of State for Environment, Food TRANSPORT and Rural Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson). Cycling: Safety Motorcycles: Safety Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport pursuant to the answer of 19 December Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for 2013, Official Report, column 746W, on cycle safety, if Transport what plans he has to launch road safety he will publish a breakdown of spending on cycling in educational programmes to prevent death and injury each of the last five years. [187149] for motorcyclists in the next year. [186503]

Mr Goodwill: The breakdown of funding on cycling Mr Goodwill: The Department is exploring how best over this administration from 2010 to present is as to develop a THINK! campaign that reminds drivers to follows: look longer for all vehicles, including motorcyclists, at junctions. £ million We know that motorcyclists losing control is a leading 2014-15 36 cause in fatalities. Hence our emphasis on working in 2013-14 100 partnership with motorcycling retailers and stakeholders, 2012-13 56 as highlighted through our ’Stay in control’ campaign. 2011-12 23 We will continue to engage with motorcyclists through 2010-11 63 our digital and social channels, for example, we have developed a THINK! Biker Facebook group, which In addition, 94 out of 96 Local Sustainable Transport engages a large community of bikers to communicate Fund projects include cycling as an element in their road safety messages. delivery programmes; these 94 projects receive a total of £535 million of DFT funding. Parking The previous Administration provided Cycling England with £140 million from 2008 to 2011. Simon Reevell: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will bring forward legislative proposals Driving: Licensing containing provisions similar to those in the Responsible Parking Bill (Scotland) and applying to James Duddridge: To ask the Secretary of State for the rest of the UK. [187215] Transport what assessment he has made of the potential benefits of requiring new drivers to display a Mr Goodwill: We have no plans to introduce similar probationary plate on the vehicle they are driving for legislation. Local authorities in England already have three years after qualification. [186526] powers to permit or prohibit pavement parking, parking Mr Goodwill: None. There is no probationary period at dropped kerbs and double parking, and to enforce for new drivers and no requirement to display a ’P’ restrictions with penalty charges. They also have powers plate. However, the Transport Research Laboratory Report to remove vehicles that are causing an obstruction. on “Novice Drivers: Evidence review and Evaluation Ports: EU Action Pre-Driver Training, Graduated Driver Licensing” made a number of recommendations on novice driver safety. One recommendation was that on successful completion Mr Denham: To ask the Secretary of State for of the driving test a driver would be permitted to Transport what assessment he has made of the progress to a probationary licence from age 18. During potential effects of the EU port services regulation on the 12 month (minimum) probationary licence the driver UK ports; and if he will make a statement. [186732] would be required to display a green ’P’ plate to identify their licence status and aid enforcement of other Stephen Hammond: My assessment of the potential recommended restrictions. effects of this proposed regulation was set out in the relevant Explanatory Memorandum (EM 10154/13) and Government Departments: Unmanned Air Vehicles in my subsequent letters of 12 November last to the Chairmen of the Scrutiny Committees, particularly in Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for the impact checklist attached thereto. The Government’s Transport pursuant to the answer of 16 January 2014, view is that encouraging fair competition between ports Official Report, column 655W, on unmanned air is the best way to secure efficiency within them, and that vehicles, which Government departments have used regulation of ports that already operate in a fully competitive unmanned systems to collect data; which unmanned environment, and that are already subject (as are other systems are used; and which policies are so supported. commercial businesses) to national and European [R] [186609] competition law, should be kept to the necessary minimum. 527W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 528W

Mr Denham: To ask the Secretary of State for issues, including the availability of public transport in Transport what the UK’s Representation to the EU’s rural areas and the accessibility of transport for disabled negotiating mandate is regarding the proposed EU port children and young people, to ensure that the best services regulation. [186733] interests of children and young people are represented within our work. Stephen Hammond: The Government’s approach to Many of the rights conferred by the UNCRC overlap this proposed regulation is founded on the understanding with rights contained in the European Convention on that the UK ports sector continues to operate efficiently, Human Rights (ECHR). To demonstrate compatibility and to invest vigorously in a competitive environment with individuals’ convention rights, the Department with minimal call upon the taxpayer. We aim to ensure also completed ECHR memoranda when introducing that, should this proposal become law in some form, it the following legislation during 2013: the High Speed does so in a manner which will not impose unwarranted Rail (Preparation) Bill, the High Speed Rail (London to regulatory burdens on ports that are fully competitive, West Midlands) Bill, the HGV Road User Levy Bill, but will promote financial transparency in those that and the Marine Navigation (No. 2) Bill. are not. More widely, the coalition Government is due to report to the UN Committee responsible for the UN Mr Denham: To ask the Secretary of State for Convention on the Rights of the Child shortly. The Transport on what date the European Council will next Department for Education is co-ordinating the response discuss the proposed EU port services regulation. with contributions from other Government Departments, [186734] including the work that the Department for Transport has undertaken. Once the Government has submitted Stephen Hammond: The Greek presidency has its response to the UN Committee, a copy will be placed provisionally scheduled Council Working Group discussions in the House Library. on 18 and 25 February and has included the proposal on its provisional agenda for the Transport, Telecommunications and Energy Council on 5-6 June. ATTORNEY-GENERAL Railways: Dawlish Children: Abuse

Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Attorney-General how Transport what estimate he has made of the cost of many local authorities have signed up to the repairing the damage to the railway line at Dawlish. information-sharing protocol for cases of child abuse [187147] launched in November 2013 by the Director of Public Prosecutions. [902537] Stephen Hammond: This is an ongoing operational matter for Network Rail. The Solicitor-General: I refer the hon. Member to the oral answer I gave to the right hon. Member for Delyn Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for (Mr Hanson) and the hon. Member for North Tyneside Transport what the cost of repairing the damage to the (Mrs Glindon) today. railway line at Dawlish was after the 2012 floods. [187148] Harassment: Prosecutions

Stephen Hammond: This is an operational matter for Emily Thornberry: To ask the Attorney-General how Network Rail. many prosecutions were commenced by the Crown Prosecution Service for harassment in each of the last UN Convention on the Rights of the Child six years; and of these how many were domestic- violence flagged. [186631] Paul Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for The Solicitor-General: The Protection from Harassment Transport with reference to the Government’s Act 1997 defines the offence of harassment under s.2 commitment to give due consideration to the UN and putting people in fear of violence under S.4. The Convention on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC) records held by the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) when making new policy and legislation, if he will identify the number of offences in which a prosecution place in the Library all assessments of how new policy commenced and reached a first hearing in magistrates and legislation from his Department since January courts, rather than the number of defendants prosecuted 2013 has given due consideration to the UNCRC. or the outcome of proceedings. [186591] The following table shows the number of offences Stephen Hammond: The Department for Transport is under the Protection from Harassment Act in which a committed to considering the impact of all new policies prosecution commenced and reached a first hearing and legislation, including where they impact specifically and it also gives the numbers that were flagged as on children and young people. While the Department domestic violence. A single defendant may be prosecuted has not taken specific steps to assess the compatibility for multiple offences. of its policies with the United Nations Convention on s.2 and s.4 Protection from Harassment Act 1997 the Rights of the Child, in line with Article 12 of the 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 UNCRC we have consulted young people and their Not domestic 4,807 4,200 3,985 4,051 3,627 3,607 representatives, such as the British Youth Council and violence the Youth Transport Select Committee, on a range of flagged 529W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 530W

s.2 and s.4 Protection from Harassment Act 1997 Grade Number 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 HEO 260 Domestic 4,611 4,985 5,676 6,396 5,887 5,073 violence SEO 118 flagged Grade 7 568 Total1 9,418 9,185 9,661 10,447 9,514 8,680 Grade 6 110 1 The CPS collects data to assist in the effective management of its prosecution Grade 6/SCS 1 Equivalent 43 functions. The CPS does not collect data which constitutes official statistics as Senior Civil Servant 13 defined in the Statistics and Registration Service Act 2007. These data have been drawn from the CPS’s administrative IT system, which (as with any large Grade not recorded on CPS financial 19 scale recording system) is subject to possible errors with data entry and delegation database processing. The figures are provisional and subject to change as more information is recorded by the CPS. The Department does not hold central records of the In addition to offences under the Protection from professional procurement qualifications of all members Harassment Act 1997, the harassment of another or of staff. To provide this information would involve others could be prosecuted under a range of offences checking with all staff across the CPS and would incur such as those under the Offences Against the Person disproportionate costs. Act 1861, the Sexual Offences Act 2003, and the Malicious The CPS Procurement and Commercial Services Team Communications Act 1988. Professional also provides support on purchasing for Procurement the Treasury Solicitor’s Department (TSol), Attorney- General’s Office (AGO) and HM Crown Prosecution Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Attorney-General Service Inspectorate under a shared service agreement. how many staff of each grade in the Law Officers’ There is a signed Partnership Agreement agreed each Departments have the authority to make a purchase; year, and agreed planned activities and key performance what proportion of those staff have professional measures are monitored on a monthly basis. Procurement procurement qualifications; and what the key officer performance is assessed by the CPS. indicators used to assess procurement officers’ TSol do not maintain a central record of the number performance are. [183473] of staff by grade who have the authority to make a purchase and could. only provide this information at a The Solicitor-General: Purchasing within the Crown disproportionate cost. The majority of TSol purchase Prosecution Service (CPS) falls into two discrete areas. relate to litigation cases handled on behalf of clients. Contracts exceeding £5,000 are agreed and managed Case holders, primarily Grade 6 or Grade 7 lawyers, centrally by the Procurement and Commercial Services have the authority to instruct counsel and procure Team. The central team also establishes national frameworks services to progress these cases. TSol currently employ for the supply of common goods and services. Purchases approximately 500 case holders and they generally do below £5,000 which fall outside of national frameworks not hold professional procurement qualifications. Other are usually managed locally. purchases of legal services are primarily authorised at The Procurement and Commercial Services Team is the senior civil service level and except for low value formed of seven staff (one x Grade 7, two x SEO, three items, non-framework purchases relating to corporate x HEO and one x EO). The Grade 7 is MCIPS qualified services require the involvement of the Procurement and one of the SEO’s is FCIPS qualified. Of the remaining and Commercial Services team in CPS. five staff, three are currently studying for CIPS qualifications. The Serious Fraud Office has 92 staff that are approved In addition the team has two apprentices who are both to submit requisitions for goods or services. These employed on one year fixed-term contracts. Any contracts requisitions must be approved by a member of the that exceed the financial delegated authority of the delegated panel which consists of 35 staff. The number team members are referred to senior managers for approval. of staff at each grade who have the authority to approve Staff performance in the central procurement team is requisitions are provided in the following table. monitored via a number of indicators. Each agrees personal objectives as part of the department’s appraisal Authorisers Number process, these include indicators linked to value for SCS 13 money, supplier management and timely completion of G6 7 procurement projects. Team members are assessed against G7 10 the Cabinet Office’s Procurement Profession Skills and SEO 4 Competency Framework and personnel development EO 1 plans are tailored in accordance with the assessment. In Total 35 addition to monitoring individual performance, the department’s procurement function has been independently SFO’s procurement policy requires staff with delegated certified by CIPS. authority to involve the procurement team in any purchase There are also 1,811 staff in the Crown Prosecution over £10,000. There are currently two staff in the Service with delegated authority to make a purchase. procurement team, at HEO and G7, and the senior The following table shows the numbers of such staff by member is qualified to MCIPS level. The procurement grade. team are set objectives in their annual forward job plans which are in line with central Government targets. Grade Number Performance against these objectives are monitored and evaluated through the SFO’s staff annual appraisal AA 5 system. The SFO does not hold a central record of any AO 166 procurement qualifications that may be held by staff EO 509 outside of the procurement team. 531W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 532W

Stalking: Prosecutions of the UNCRC. However, the policies were carefully developed to ensure compatibility with human rights, Emily Thornberry: To ask the Attorney-General how including the rights of children. The policies were consulted many prosecutions were commenced by the Crown on, including consultation with groups representing Prosecution Service in 2012-13 for (a) stalking and (b) victims of child sexual abuse. The policy on prosecution stalking involving fear of serious violence or alarm or of child sexual abuse was designed to ensure that child distress. [186630] victims and witnesses are given as much support as possible during the criminal justice process. The Solicitor-General: The Protection of Freedoms More widely, the coalition Government is due to Act 2012 created two new offences of stalking by inserting report to the UN Committee responsible for the UN new sections 2A and 4A into the Protection from convention on the rights of the child shortly. The Harassment Act 1997. The new offences came into Department for Education is co-ordinating the response force on 25 November 2012, are not retrospective, and with contributions from other Government Departments. provide further options for prosecutors to consider Once the Government has submitted its response to the when selecting charges. The records held by the Crown UN Committee, a copy will be placed in the House Prosecution Service (CPS), replicated in the following Library. table, identify the number of offences in which a prosecution commenced and reached a first hearing in magistrates courts, rather than the number of defendants prosecuted or the outcome of proceedings. A single defendant may FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE be prosecuted for multiple offences. British Nationals Abroad: Capital Punishment Number of offences1 Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for 2013- Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment Act/Section Offence 2012-13 142 he has made of the number of UK nationals on death rows internationally; and what legal support his Protection from Stalking without 72 350 Harassment Act 1997 fear/alarm/ Department has provided to each such national. {2A(l)and(4)} distress [186801] Protection from Stalking 932 Harassment Act 1997 involving fear of Mark Simmonds: Globally, there are currently 13 British {4A(l)(a)(b)(i)and(5)} violence nationals under sentence of death. We are aware of Protection from Stalking 10 93 more than 60 facing trial for offences which could Harassment Act 1997 involving serious attract the death penalty. The British Government opposes {4A(l)(a)(b)(ii)and(5)} alarm/distress the death penalty in all circumstances. To this end, we 1 The CPS collects data to assist in the effective management of its prosecution functions. The CPS does not collect data which lobby globally for its abolition and we make representations constitutes official statistics as defined in the Statistics and to governments who retain the death penalty and conduct Registration Service Act 2007. This data has been drawn from the executions. CPS’s administrative IT system, which (as with any large scale The Foreign and Commonwealth Office provides recording system) is subject to possible errors with data entry and processing. The figures are provisional and subject to change as consular assistance to British nationals sentenced to more information is recorded by the CPS. death. Each case demands a different approach, tailored 2 Recorded data from April 2013 to December 2013. to the individual circumstances. We make representations and raise cases at the appropriate level, including at UN Convention on the Rights of the Child Prime ministerial level. We can offer basic information about the local legal system, including on the availability Paul Burstow: To ask the Attorney-General with of legal aid. We also refer British nationals to UK based reference to the Government’s commitment to give due specialist non-governmental organisations who are able consideration to the UN Convention on the Rights of to provide legal support to them. We cannot provide the Child (UNCRC) when making new policy and funding for legal assistance in any cases, including legislation, if he will place in the Library all death penalty cases. assessments of how new policy and legislation from the Law Officers’ Departments since January 2013 has Buildings given due consideration to the UNCRC. [186577] Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for The Solicitor-General: The Law Officers’ Departments Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what proportion are fully committed to considering the impact on children of the office space owned or leased by his Department of all new policies and legislation. The Law Officers’ is not in regular use; what the total (a) rental and (b) Departments are primarily operational and do not routinely retail value is of all such unused office space; and if he make policy and legislation. Therefore, the Attorney- will place in the Library a copy of his most recent General’s Office, the Treasury Solicitor’s Department, departmental real estate valuation. [186866] HM Crown Prosecution Service Inspectorate and the Serious Fraud Office have made no new legislation or Mr Lidington: The majority of the Foreign and policy since January 2013. Commonwealth Office (FCO’s) UK office space is always During 2013, the Crown Prosecution Service published in regular use. Work is currently underway to consolidate new policies on prosecuting cases involving communications our London headquarters into one building in King sent via social media and prosecuting child sexual abuse. Charles Street by the beginning of November 2015. There was no explicit assessment of their compatibility This will save around £5 million a year in running costs 533W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 534W for the FCO and free up the Old Admiralty Building for initial investigation. The FCO Counter Fraud Team use by another Government Department. Staff will be deals with allegations of financial crime. The Estates moved between King Charles Street and the Old Admiralty and Security Directorate deals with all other allegations. Building while refurbishments take place and there will If there is evidence of a crime, the matter would be be no spare office space in either of these buildings. referred to police or the National Crime Agency to Once the project is completed, the King Charles Street investigate further in the case of local staff directly offices are expected to be fully occupied. employed by missions overseas the initial investigation Overseas, the FCO runs an estate comprising more would be considered by senior management at Post and than 5,000 properties in 250 locations worldwide. Our if there is evidence of crime could be referred to local portfolio is regularly reviewed to ensure we are getting police. value for money and maintaining a fit-for-purpose estate. The FCO does not currently conduct or see the need to conduct directed surveillance operations where a Council of Europe section 28 authorisation would be necessary. Mr Clappison: To ask the Secretary of State for Democratic Republic of Congo Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his policy is on bloc voting by EU member states on the Committee Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for of Ministers of the Council of Europe when the EU Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent accedes to the ECHR; whether the Government has assessment he has made of the treatment in taken any steps to prevent bloc voting (a) generally Democratic Republic of Congo of failed asylum and (b) in respect of future matters to which the seekers returned by the Government. [186803] European Union is itself a party; and if he will make a statement. [186595] James Brokenshire: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the Home Department. Mr Lidington: The Government is well aware that The Home Office expects to publish a country policy there is a delicately balanced dynamic in the Committee bulletin for the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) of Ministers which could be upset if the EU, representing on the Home Office website in February 2014. the majority of member states, were routinely to vote as a bloc. The detail of the EU’s voting rights in the This bulletin confirms the UK’s position on returns Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe has to the DRC and contains information from other EU not yet been agreed. The details of how accession will states, Canada and Australia. Both the High Courts of operate will be set out in the EU internal rules. The England and Wales and the High Court in Ireland Commission is yet to bring forward a proposal in concluded in 2013 that failed asylum seekers per se are respect of the internal rules. not at risk of ill treatment on return to the DRC. Following the EU’s accession to the European Court Egypt of Human Rights (ECHR), the EU will co-ordinate in the Committee of Ministers where EU law requires and Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for no further. This will be provided for in the Accession Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what talks his Agreement between the EU and the Council of Europe. Department has had with the current Egyptian Article 7(4) of the draft Accession Agreement sets out government on restoring democratic elections in Egypt. the circumstances in which the EU and its member [187320] states will vote in a co-ordinated manner in the Committee of Ministers and how the effective exercise of the Committee Hugh Robertson: As a friend, the UK is committed to of Ministers’ supervisory functions will be maintained. seeing Egypt succeed. I discussed Egypt’s political transition The UK’s final position on the EU’s accession to the with the Deputy Foreign Minister when I visited Cairo European convention on human rights will only be in December. When The Secretary of State for Foreign formed on the basis of the whole package of necessary and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the measures, including the internal rules and the Accession Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), spoke to Agreement between the EU and the Council of Europe. Foreign Minister Fahmy about these issues on 7 January Accession is subject to unanimity in the Council of the he noted the importance of the referendum, allowing European Union. millions of Egyptians to express their views through the ballot box, but raised his concerns about the closure of Criminal Investigation political space. Simon Fraser, Permanent Under-Secretary, raised the importance of a real democratic transition Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for with Foreign Minister Fahmy during his visit to Egypt Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs which on 26-27 January. organisation his Department and its subsidiary bodies use to tackle internal instances of crime, including Equal Pay corruption and fraud; and whether he has designated this organisation or any individual within it to grant Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign authorisation for carrying out directed surveillance and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has under section 28 of the Regulation of Investigatory made of the level of the gender pay gap at senior Powers Act 2000. [186711] grades in his Department. [186524]

Mr Lidington: When allegations of crime on the Hugh Robertson: The FCO is committed to ensure Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) Estate are equal pay regardless of gender. We continually assess received, the FCO has internal mechanisms to carry out equal pay including for staff working at senior civil 535W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 536W service levels. Where diversity data highlight discrepancies Hugh Robertson: The Foreign and Commonwealth between groups, we take appropriate action to understand Office has not made any assessment of the regional and address any issues. effect of the Government’s approach to trade with Israel. Hezbollah Libya Dr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if his Department will Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for proscribe the whole of Hezbollah as a terrorist Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what current organisation. [186497] financial aid commitments the UK has in Libya. [187319] James Brokenshire: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the Home Department. Hugh Robertson: The UK has committed more than £23 million on work to support stability and reform in The UK proscribed Hezbollah’s External Security Libya. We expect our commitment next financial year Organisation in 2001. In 2008 the proscription was (FY 2014-15) to rise to almost £30 million. This work is extended to include the whole of Hezbollah’s military delivered through three strategically linked initiatives. apparatus, namely the Jihad Council and all the units reporting to it. It is Government policy not to comment The Arab Partnership Participation Fund supports on whether, or not, a group is under consideration for local and international non-governmental organisations proscription. which promote political participation, public voice and freedom of expression, and good governance. We are Dr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign delivering £1.9 million of political reform support this and Commonwealth Affairs (1) what assessment his financial year. Department has made of the threat of Hezbollah to The Middle East and North Africa Conflict Pool is the UK’s national interests; [186505] focused on initiatives to support security and stability. (2) what assessment his Department has made of This financial year we are delivering conflict projects in Hezbollah fundraising activities in the (a) UK, (b) Libya worth almost £17.5 million and expect this to rise next year to £25 million. This includes our long-term EU and (c) rest of the world. [186507] commitment through the Security Justice and Defence James Brokenshire: I have been asked tor reply on programme to support the Libyan Government to behalf of the Home Department. strengthen the capability, accountability and responsiveness of its security, justice and defence sectors. It is long-standing Government practice not to comment on intelligence assessments. In addition, the Arab Partnership Economic Facility, managed by the Department for International Development, encourages the development of the private Housing sector, supports economic participation by women and young people, and is helping to develop stronger public Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for financial management. We are providing £3.9 million of Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will discuss economic reform support in Libya this financial year. with his Ministerial colleagues the potential effect of the Government’s response to the report on UK Montenegro housing by the UN Special Rapporteur on adequate housing on the UK’s relations with the Human Rights Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for Council. [187068] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will take steps to ensure that the Government of Montenegro Mr Lidington: The Government’s response to the settles all outstanding compensation or restitution report of the UN Special Rapporteur on adequate claims for illegally seized property in that country as housing is in two parts. Preliminary comments were part of the pre-qualifying criteria for admission into posted on the website of the Department for Communities the EU. [186218] and Local Government (DCLG), indicating our view that the report contained inaccuracies. A fuller formal Mr Lidington: The criteria for EU accession for response from DCLG and the Department for Work Montenegro and other candidate countries include a and Pensions will be published in due course. requirement to implement measures to ensure that the Where the Government disagrees with the findings of rule of law is firmly embedded within the judicial and a UN Special Rapporteur it is of course entitled to say political system. so. This does not affect the UK’s support for Special The European Commission’s annual progress reports Procedures. The Government has a standing invitation on Montenegro have included specific concerns around to all UN Special Rapporteurs to visit the UK and restitution claims in 2011, 2012 and 2013. The UK works cooperatively with them. considers that the process of EU accession negotiations provides the best vehicle to drive forward further progress Israel in this area. Robust action plans on rule of law issues have been Naomi Long: To ask the Secretary of State for adopted by Montenegro to address the challenges it Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment faces in this area, and the EU and its member states will he has made of the regional effect of the Government’s continuously monitor its progress. Montenegro will only approach to trade with Israel. [187173] be able to close negotiation chapters once it meets the 537W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 538W relevant benchmarks, and will therefore become an EU situation in Syria. In addition, the Foreign Secretary member only when all EU member states are satisfied delivered a speech focussing on the importance of values, thatitisready. including respect for human rights, in facilitating Asia’s growth in the 21st century. Mark Field: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make it his policy Politics and Government: Females to view the restitution of, or compensation for, property seized in Montenegro and in which UK Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for citizens have an interest as one of the benchmarks in Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs which determining his support for Montenegro’s application programmes and funds are currently provided by his to join the EU. [186495] Department to promote women’s political and public participation; and if he will make a statement. [186911] Mr Lidington: The criteria for EU accession for Montenegro and other candidate countries include a Mr Lidington: The Human Rights and Democracy requirement to implement measures to ensure that the Programme (HRDP) is the Foreign and Commonwealth rule of law is firmly embedded within the judicial and Office (FCO)’s dedicated fund supporting human rights political system. and democracy work overseas. The programme aims to The European Commission’s annual progress reports make a difference to people’s lives, helping to build the on Montenegro have included specific concerns around capacity of governments and civil society to promote restitution claims in 2011, 2012 and 2013. The UK and protect human rights. During 2013-14, we supported considers that the process of EU accession negotiations over 80 projects worldwide, including projects which provides the best vehicle to drive forward further progress promote women’s political and public participation. in this area. We have been supporting democratic and economic Robust action plans on rule of law issues have been reform in the middle east through political advocacy, by adopted by Montenegro to address the challenges it working with multilateral organisations, and by supporting faces in this area, and the EU and its member states will reform programmes, including through our £110 million continuously monitor its progress. Montenegro will only Arab Partnership Fund. The UK will lead a series of be able to close negotiation chapters once it meets the initiatives in the transition countries aimed at promoting relevant benchmarks, and will therefore become an EU investment, encouraging the development of a vibrant member only when all EU member states are satisfied private sector (especially small and medium-sized thatitisready. enterprises) and supporting economic participation by women and young people. Northern Ireland Through bilateral and multilateral engagement, the FCO will continue to support legislative programmes in Dr Alasdair McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State other countries to promote gender equality and women’s for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assets his empowerment and to tackle violence against women, Department has sold in Northern Ireland in each of and will work to raise the profile of these issues the last five years; and what the value of each such sale internationally. was. [186572] In addition, our overseas posts have the Bilateral Mr Lidington: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office Programme Fund which aims to fund small, targeted has not bought or sold any assets in Northern Ireland in projects which support issues of strategic importance to the last five years. the UK which seeks to create real, measurable outcomes in support of the UK’s foreign policy goals, including Philippines political and economic participation by women.

Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for South Sudan Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he had on human rights during his recent visit to the Mr Tom Clarke: To ask the Secretary of State for Philippines; and what representations he made to his Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he is interlocutors in support of the UN Convention taking to help resolve the ongoing conflict in South Against Torture and the rule of law in that country. Sudan; and if he will make a statement. [902086] [187146] Mark Simmonds: With our Troika partners, we have Mr Swire: During his visit to the Philippines in been supporting the regional organisation, Inter- January, the Secretary of State for Foreign and Governmental Authority on Development (IGAD), in Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member the establishment of a monitoring verification mechanism for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), had wide-ranging to oversee the implementation of the Cessation of Hostilities discussions with the President, Vice President and Secretary Agreement. We have provided an expert to the Advance for Foreign Affairs, in which he covered human rights in Party of the ceasefire oversight committee (“Joint Technical Philippines, including progress on the Mindanao peace Committee”) which arrived in Juba on 2 February. talks. He did not raise the UN Convention Against The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Torture. Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond In his meeting with the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, (Yorks) (Mr Hague), has spoken with the Ugandan and the Foreign Secretary also raised the hope that the UK South Sudanese Presidents to encourage a peaceful and the Philippines would work together on global resolution. In my meetings with the South Sudanese, human rights issues such as those arising from the Ethiopian, Kenyan, Sudanese and Ugandan Foreign 539W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 540W

Ministers at the African Union Summit, I made clear other Government Departments, including the work that the cessation of hostilities must lead to a genuinely that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office has undertaken. inclusive national reconciliation process that strengthens Once the Government has submitted its response to the the unity of South Sudan. Our envoy to the South UN Committee, a copy will be placed in the House Sudan Talks is in Ethiopia this week to support the Library. IGAD-led talks, which were due to resume on 11 February. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Syria Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will place in the Library all assessments of new policy and Mary Macleod: To ask the Secretary of State for legislation from his Department since January 2013 Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent steps which give due consideration to the UN Convention on he has taken to protect Christians in Syria. [187123] the Rights of the Child. [187317] Mr Lidington: The Government is committed to making Hugh Robertson: We are extremely concerned about further progress on implementing the United Nations the situation of the Christian community in Syria. Convention on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC), by Ultimately their position can only be truly secured by ensuring that due consideration is given to the UNCRC finding a political solution to the crisis. The UK has Articles when developing new policies and legislation. been central to efforts to support the Geneva II process We are due to report to the UN Committee responsible as it looks to bring about a political transition through for the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child the implementation of the Geneva communiqué. The shortly. The Department for Education is co-ordinating opposition National Coalition, whose negotiation efforts the response with contributions from other Government we support, are committed to the communiqué and its Departments, including the work that the Foreign and guarantees of the rights, interests and participation of Commonwealth Office has undertaken. Once the all components of Syrian society. We are continuing to Government has submitted its response to the UN encourage the National Coalition to build on their Committee, a copy will be placed in the Library of the appeal and effectiveness over the extremists. We are also House. funding the training of religious and community leaders from Christian and other religious and ethnic communities in active citizenship and dialogue skills in order to help EDUCATION reduce community tensions. Al-Madinah School Ukraine Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for Education pursuant to his response of 29 January 2014 Sammy Wilson: To ask the Secretary of State for to the hon. member for Cardiff West, Official Report, Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent column 934, if he will release the qualifications of the representations he has made to his counterpart in teachers at the Al Madinah Free School in Derby at the Ukraine on political unrest in that country. [186798] beginning of the September 2013 school term. [187153] Mr Lidington: I refer the hon. Member to my answer Mr Timpson: The following table is based on unvalidated, of 30 January 2014, Official Report, column 690W. anonymised information provided by the former Chair We remain concerned about the situation in Ukraine. of the Al-Madinah Education Trust. We are monitoring developments closely and continue Qualifications of Al-Madinah staff to coordinate our response, with our international partners. Our immediate priority is restoring stability and helping Staff 1 — Ukraine onto a path of political reform. Staff 2 BSc (Hons) Maths/PGCE Secondary Maths/QTS Staff 3 — UN Convention on the Rights of the Child Staff 4 MA in Special Education Needs Staff 5 BA in Education/QTS Paul Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for Staff 6 Higher National Diploma in Science/PGCE Secondary Science/ QTS Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs with reference to Staff 7 BA in Drama/Cache level 3 in Childcare/Early YearsProfessional the Government’s commitment to give due Status consideration to the UN Convention on the Rights of Staff 8 BA in History/PGCE/QTS the Child (UNCRC) when making new policy and Staff 9 PhD in Philosophy legislation, if he will place in the Library all Staff 10 MA in European Studies assessments of how new policy and legislation from his Staff 11 BSc in Biomedical Sciences/QTS Department since January 2013 has given due Staff 12 — consideration to the UNCRC. [186586] Staff 13 BSc in Maths and Business/PGCE in Maths/QTS Staff 14 QTS/NQT Mr Lidington: The Government is committed to making Staff 15 — further progress on implementing the United Nations Staff 16 BA Combined Honours in Theology with Art and Design/PGCE Convention on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC), by QTS ensuring that due consideration is given to the UNCRC Staff 17 BSc (Hons) in Business Information Systems/PGCE in /QTS Articles when developing new policies and legislation. Staff 18 BEng in Manufacturing Engineering/PGCE QTS Staff 19 BSc in Business Information Systems/Postgraduate Certificate The coalition Government is due to report to the UN in Early Years Leadership/ QTS Committee responsible for the UN convention on the Staff 20 BSc in Paper Science with Management/PGCE/QTS rights of the child shortly. The Department for Education Staff 21 BA in Art/PGCE/QTS is co-ordinating the response with contributions from 541W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 542W

Qualifications of Al-Madinah staff In addition, the Fostering Network is being funded to Staff 22 BA in Education Studies and English/QTS undertake surveys benchmarking local authorities on Staff 23 PGCE in Primary/QTS/NQT key indices of recruitment and retention of foster carers; Staff 24 BA in English with Linguistics/PGCE/QTS and determining foster carers values using a methodology Staff 25 PHD in Philosophy/QTS called Values Mode. They are now using the results of these surveys to support 14 local authorities to improve their strategies for recruiting and retaining foster carers. Children: Protection Another 11 local authorities will be supported in 2014-15. ICT: Education Meg Munn: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for the Home Department on Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for multi-agency safeguarding hubs. [186959] Education (1) how many staff will be employed on the Year of Code Campaign; how many such staff were Mr Timpson: The Department for Education and the appointments from outside his Department; and where Home Office are in ongoing contact on local multi-agency such jobs were advertised; [187156] information sharing models, including multi-agency (2) when the head of the Year of Code Campaign safeguarding hubs and related issues at a range of was appointed; where this vacancy was advertised prior levels. to appointment; how the successful candidate was Custody chosen; and what their salary is; [187160] (3) how many teachers he expects to receive training Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of under the Year of Code campaign. [187206] State for Education what steps he is taking to increase fathers’ access to their children following a divorce; and Elizabeth Truss: The Yearof Code campaign launched if he will make a statement. [187356] on 4 February 2014 is an independent campaign and not a Government initiative. The Government was not Mr Timpson: The Government recognises that a father’s involved in the appointments of the head of the campaign role in his child’s life is a very important one. We are or any members of staff. The campaign website is: taking forward legislation in the Children and Families Bill which reflects the importance of children having a http://www.yearofcode.org/ continuing relationship with both of their parents following The Government is doing a great deal to get teachers family separation, so long as it is safe to do so and in the ready to teach the new computing curriculum. We have child’s best interests. been working with the British Computer Society since last year and have established the Network of Teaching Families: Disadvantaged Excellence for computer science teachers. This programme Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for is forging links between schools, universities and employers. Education pursuant to the answer from the Minister The aim is to build a network of around 400 ’Master for Housing of 22 January 2014, Official Report, Teachers’ over the next two years, who will be available column 212W, on families: disadvantaged, what criteria for schools to commission to provide training for their his Department uses to assess the success and value for teachers. money of its contribution to that programme. [187100] In December 2013 we announced funding of £1.1 million for the BCS (the British Computer Society—the Chartered Mr Timpson: The success and value for money of the Institute for IT) to develop a computing readiness Troubled Families programme is currently being assessed programme aimed specifically at primary school teachers via an independent national evaluation. Further information with no prior experience of computer science. The is available online1. project will provide online resources, in-school workshops, This work is ongoing and initial findings will be outreach activities and create local support groups within available later this year. the Network of Teaching Excellence in Computer 1 Available at: Science—reaching at least 20,000 teachers. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/study-to-assess-impact-of- We have also announced a £500,000 matched fund to troubled-families-work support projects that will improve the teaching of the Foster Care new computing curriculum. The Government will match funding from industry and business, allowing new and Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for existing teachers to be trained by the experts. Education pursuant to the answer of 10 December 2013, Official Report, column 213W, on foster care, Military Bases what activities local authorities are undertaking to support recruitment and retention of foster carers. Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for [187067] Education pursuant to the answer of the hon. Member for South West Wiltshire of 11 November 2013, Mr Timpson: Three Government-funded consortia Official Report, column 412W, if he will have meetings partnerships of local authorities and independent fostering with the Secretary of State for Defence and the agencies are developing a range of innovative solutions Secretary of State for Communities and Local to broaden the range of people who foster. The programme Government on the re-basing of troops to the local is enabling local authorities to find new ways of working authorities in which (a) Dalton Barracks, Abingdon, collaboratively with the independent sector to meet the (b) Kendrews Barracks, Cottesmore and (c) Imjin challenge of recruiting and retaining foster carers. Barracks, Gloucester are situated. [186927] 543W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 544W

Elizabeth Truss: Ministers at the Department for Elizabeth Truss: The proportion of staff working Education regularly meet colleagues from both the outside London in the Department for Education and Department for Communities and Local Government its agencies is set out in the following table: and the Ministry of Defence to discuss a range of matters, including provision for the families of armed Proportion of staff working forces personnel. outside London (%) Supporting local authorities in creating additional Department for Education 46.2 school places where they are needed is one of the Education Funding Agency 67.1 Department’s top priorities. National College for Teaching and 92.3 Leadership Northern Ireland Standards and Testing Agency 65.2

Dr Alasdair McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State The Department has offices based in the following for Education what assets his Department has sold in local authority areas: Bristol City, Coventry City, Darlington Northern Ireland in each of the last five years; and Borough, Guildford Borough, Cambridgeshire County, what the value of each such sale was. [186569] Westminster City, Manchester City, Nottingham City, Halton Borough and Sheffield City. Elizabeth Truss: The Department for Education does not hold any assets in Northern Ireland and has no Students: Finance record of having sold any such assets in the last five years. Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Pupils: Tagging Education if he will consider reversing the reductions in funding for full-time education places for 18 year Meg Munn: To ask the Secretary of State for olds announced by his Department in January 2014. Education what recent discussions he has had with the [187366] Secretary of State for Health on child protection issues. [186931] Matthew Hancock: We have to make the funding reduction for 18-year-olds in order to live within the Mr Timpson: The Department for Education and the Department for Education’s funding settlement at the Department of Health are in ongoing contact on child spending round 2013, which was reduced at the autumn protection and related issues at a range of levels. This statement of December 2013. includes joined up working between the two chief social workers. The published impact assessment of the reduction in funding for 18-year-olds sets out why it was the least Schools: Discipline detrimental of the options for savings that we considered. We will consider whether we can afford to introduce Mary Macleod: To ask the Secretary of State for measures to mitigate its impact on individual colleges. Education what guidance his Department issues to schools on how to identify and address the root causes Teachers: Training of poor behaviour and absenteeism. [186926] Mr Chope: To ask the Secretary of State for Elizabeth Truss: The Department for Education has Education what funds were provided for bursaries for issued advice on behaviour and discipline for schools. trainee religious education teachers in each of the last This advice is clear that schools should assess the needs five years. [187098] of pupils who persistently misbehave and consider whether the continuing disruptive behaviour is a result of unmet educational or other needs. At this point, the school Mr Laws: The training bursary budget is set for each should consider whether a multi-agency assessment is academic year to cover all subjects that attract a training necessary. bursary. There is no specific budget allocated per subject. In each academic year there is an assumed budget, and The Department has published advice on school from 2012/13 an estimated degree classification split, attendance and statutory guidance on parental responsibility for training bursaries payable based on the total number measures for school attendance and behaviour. These of places allocated. have been produced to help schools and local authorities maintain high levels of school attendance and provide Decisions on bursaries are taken by Ministers each information about the interventions available to address year and are informed by recruitment performance. pupils’ poor attendance and behaviour at school. Levels of persistent absenteeism have fallen from Bursary level (RE) 6.1% in 2010-11 to 5.2% in 2011-12. 2009/10 £9,000 (mainstream bursary for all applicants) Staff 2010/11 £6,000 (mainstream bursary for all applicants) Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for 2011/12 No bursary allocated Education what proportion of staff of (a) his 2012/13 £9,000 (first class degree) Department and (b) agencies and public bodies £5,000 (upper second degree) accountable to him work outside of London; and in 2013/14 No bursary allocated which local authorities such staff are located. [187265] 545W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 546W

BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ attachment_data/file/32388/11-781-applications-for-degree- Criminal Investigation awarding-powers-guidance.pdf The criteria for institutions seeking foundation degree Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for awarding powers are set out in the following BIS guidance: Business, Innovation and Skills which organisation his https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ Department and its subsidiary bodies use to tackle attachment_data/file/32389/11-782-applications-for- internal instances of crime, including corruption and foundation-degree-awarding-powers-guidance.pdf fraud; and whether he has designated this organisation or any individual within it to grant authorisation for Equal Pay carrying out directed surveillance under section 28 of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000. Gloria De Piero: To ask the Secretary of State for [186703] Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking in response to the European Parliament resolution to Jenny Willott: If an employee of the Department for reduce the gender pay gap by five per cent each year Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) was suspected of and eliminate the gender pay gap by 2020. [186596] criminal conduct this would be investigated initially under the BIS Conduct Rules/Discipline Policy. Jenny Willott: I have been asked to reply on behalf of Depending on the nature of the suspected criminal the Government Equalities Office. conduct, investigations may be carried out by BIS employees The Government is already taking strong action to eg a BIS manager, a member of the BIS Security/Fraud reduce the gender pay gap. There are record numbers of Team, the Internal Audit team. On occasion, an women in work, women’s salaries are rising, and we are investigation may need to be pursued by an independent transforming the workplace, for example by extending external investigator or, in the case of issues raised the right to request flexible working to all employees about one of our Partner Organisations this may be from this year, and introducing a system of shared investigated by, for example, the official auditor for that parental leave from 2015. Organisation. In an instance of criminal conduct the matter would be reported to the police. Over 160 companies are now supporting our “Think, Act, Report”initiative, collectively employing over 2 million The Department has responsibility for investigating people. It provides a simple framework for companies criminal allegations referred to it, principally from the to think about gender equality in their workforces and Insolvency Service, in relation to the Secretary of State identify barriers to women’s progression, including pay for Business, Innovation and Skills, my right hon. Friend policy. From October 2014, employment tribunals will the Member for Twickenham (Vince Cable), oversight be required to order an equal pay audit when an employer of the Company and Insolvency regimes. has been found to have breached equal pay laws. BIS is authorised to deploy powers under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 (RIPA) including the Northern Ireland ability to undertake Directed Surveillance. However, the legislation, which is overseen by the Office of the Surveillance Commissioner, demands that very clear Dr Alasdair McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State criteria including those of necessity and proportionality for Business, Innovation and Skills what assets his be demonstrated. Department has sold in Northern Ireland in each of the last five years; and what the value of each such sale Within BIS, the RIPA regime is overseen by the was. [186567] Investigation Officers Branch of Legal A. As a policy, the Department does not confirm or deny the use of surveillance for criminal complaints. However, as stated, Jenny Willott: The Department has not sold any where an internal investigation involves criminal conduct, assets in Northern Ireland during the last five years. the matter would be reported to the police who would have primacy of the investigation including the use of Nuclear Engineering any necessary and proportionate covert tactics. Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for Degrees Business, Innovation and Skills what criteria local authorities will have to meet when bidding for the Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, proposed nuclear engineering college to be located Innovation and Skills what the regulatory tests are for within their area. [186633] (a) public and (b) private institutions seeking to acquire degree awarding powers. [187200] Matthew Hancock: We are still at an early stage of developing our detailed plans for establishing the new Mr Willetts: Section 76 of the Further and Higher elite college, and will be considering all aspects of this Education Act 1992 empowers the Privy Council to with the nuclear industry. The immediate focus will be grant powers to institutions in England and Wales on further defining the scope and scale of the college enabling them to award their own degrees. All institutions and developing an approach for identifying a location. seeking to apply for such powers are subject to the same criteria. Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for The criteria for institutions seeking taught and research Business, Innovation and Skills what the timetable for degree awarding powers are set out in the following BIS the proposed nuclear engineering college will be. guidance: [186634] 547W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 548W

Mr Willetts: We are still at an early stage of developing year’s spending review. The results of that consultation our plans for establishing the new elite college. We will will form an important part of the work on the Science be considering all aspects of the project with the nuclear and Innovation Strategy. industry, and a detailed timetable will be developed as part of this work. Students: Finance Post Offices Sammy Wilson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Bellingham: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (1) whether he plans to Business, Innovation and Skills what steps his reduce the student opportunity allocation in higher Department is taking to ensure that the majority of education in 2014-15; [186614] Government services are still available throughout the (2) how many students in higher education used sub-post office network. [187042] funding from the student opportunity allocation in 2012-13 and 2013-14; [186615] Jenny Willott: The Government continues to support (3) what assessment his Department has made of the the Post Office’s ambition to become a front office for effect of reduction in the student opportunity Government services and significant progress has been allocation on the ability of socially disadvantaged made towards this in recent years in highly competitive students to access higher education. [186616] and challenging commercial environments. Both the Post Office and this Department are working Mr Willetts: The Department for Business, Innovation hard to identify and secure further opportunities, including and Skills has set out our plans in the Higher Education making use of the framework Front Office Counter Funding Council for England (HEFCE) Grant Letter, Services (FOCS) contract that allows Government published on 10 February 2014. Departments and agencies to use the Post Office network The Student Opportunity Fund is part of the overall to deliver a range of counter services. Teaching Grant allocated to higher education institutions However, it is important to note that the Government by the HEFCE. Funding is not allocated directly to cannot simply give work to the Post Office, or any other individual learners. The allocations are designed to company. Contracts must ensure fairness, innovation, target funding towards those institutions that do more and value-for-money for the taxpayer. By winning and to widen participation or that recruit students who are retaining key contracts, such as the FOCS contract, the likely to need more support. Post Office is demonstrating it can compete on these criteria. Students: Loans

Mr Bellingham: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Business, Innovation and Skills what recent meetings Innovation and Skills what estimate he has made of the he has had with representatives of Post Office Limited RAB charge on loans made to students at alternative to discuss investment in the sub-post office network to providers. [187207] allow sub-postmasters to grow their businesses. [187043] Mr Willetts: We do not estimate a specific RAB charge for students at alternative providers. Our current Jenny Willott: Ministers hold regular meetings with estimate of the RAB charge across all full-time senior representatives from Post Office Ltd to discuss a undergraduates is around 40%. wide range of matters. In addition, officials from the Department’s Shareholder Executive team maintain a close and continuous dialogue with the company. UN Convention on the Rights of the Child Since 2010, the Government has committed £1.975 billion to maintain, modernise and protect the Post Paul Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for Office network. This very significant public investment Business, Innovation and Skills with reference to the is helping entrepreneurial sub-postmasters develop and Government’s commitment to give due consideration grow their businesses. to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC) when making new policy and legislation, if Science he will place in the Library all assessments of how new policy and legislation from his Department since Paul Blomfield: To ask the Secretary of State for January 2013 has given due consideration to the Business, Innovation and Skills how his Department UNCRC. [186576] plans to consult the science community and industry on the content of the Science and Innovation strategy. Jenny Willott: In a written ministerial statement to [186551] Parliament in December 2010, the Government confirmed its commitment to give due consideration to the UN Mr Willetts: Ministers and officials have frequent convention on the rights of the child (UNCRC) articles engagement with the science and research community when making new policy and legislation. and with industry on a wide range of topics, and plan to The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills gather input to the Science and Innovation Strategy as BIS is fully committed to considering the impact of all part of those discussions and consultations. For example, new policies and legislation, where they impact specifically I have committed to leading a consultation with the on children. We have embedded equality analysis into science community on making the most of the long-term the processes we use to develop, deliver and evaluate capital settlement for science and research agreed in last our policies, practices and services. 549W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 550W

BIS leads on two Bills currently before Parliament— Cybercrime ‘Intellectual Property Bill [Lords]’ and ‘Consumer Rights Bill’. Both Bill teams have confirmed that the UNCRC Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for was assessed before introduction of the Bills. As no Defence what steps he is taking to improve cyber significant effects were identified, a formal analysis was security at Ministry of Defence sites. [187307] not published in either case. The data requested for secondary legislation and new Mr Francois: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer my policies made are not held centrally and could be obtained predecessor, my right hon. Friend the Member for only at disproportionate cost, although prior to the South Leicestershire (Mr Robathan), gave to the hon. introduction of new secondary legislation detailed Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) consideration is undertaken to ensure that the statutory on 14 March 2013, Official Report, column 351W. instrument is compatible with individual’s European convention on human rights, which overlaps with the Defence rights set out in the UNCRC. More widely, the coalition Government is due to Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for report to the UN Committee responsible for the UN Defence when an updated version of New Operating Convention on the Rights of the Child shortly. The Model: How Defence Works will be published. [186499] Department for Education is co-ordinating the response with contributions from other Government Departments, Dr Murrison: The next version of ‘How Defence including the work that the Department for Business, Works’ will be published in April 2014. A copy will be Innovation and Skills has undertaken. Once the placed in the Library of the House. Government has submitted its response to the UN Committee, a copy will be placed in the House Library. Defence Equipment and Support

Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for DEFENCE Defence how many safety critical posts exist in Defence Apache Helicopters Equipment and Support; and how many such posts are currently vacant. [187339] Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what steps have been taken to install a Mr Francois: As at the end of December 2013, Defence buoyancy aid for embarked Apache attack helicopters. Equipment and Support (DE&S) had 1,362 posts [187338] designated as ‘Safety-Critical’, 98 of which were vacant. An external engineering recruitment campaign is currently Dr Murrison: The contract for the design, development under way which we expect to have a significant impact and procurement of flotation role equipment for the on addressing the staffing requirement. DE&S is also UK Apache was placed with AgustaWestland Ltd on taking action to fill safety-critical posts from within 24 October 2013. All UK Apache Helicopters will be Defence. modified to enable them to be equipped with the flotation equipment. Defence: Procurement Armed Forces: Housing Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence which external consultants are used by his Defence how many service personnel in (a) Plymouth Department regarding the formulation of its policy on and (b) total have been housed in hotel reforming defence procurement; and what the cost to accommodation in each of the last 12 months; and the public purse has been for each such consultant. what the cost of such accommodation has been. [179989] [186498] Dr Murrison: Service personnel are not housed in Dr Murrison [holding answer 16 December 2013]: hotel accommodation but exceptionally may be placed The Ministry of Defence has used six external consultancy in hotels as a temporary measure. companies during the Concept and Assessment Phases of the Materiel Strategy and Customer Design Programmes. Armed Forces: Location The Concept Phase ran from May 2011 to April 2013; the Assessment Phase ran from April 2013 to December Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for 2013. The consultancy costs for the Concept Phase, Defence pursuant to the answer of 3 February 2014, which analysed a number of potential operating models Official Report, column 85W, on helicopter capabilities, for the future of DE&S, were £11.2 million. The consultancy where within the UK the 6,000 personnel have been costs for the Assessment Phase, which developed the relocated to. [186718] GOCO option, the internal DE&S Plus option, and the Dr Murrison: Further to the answer given by the Customer Capability within Head Office were some Under-Secretary of State for Defence, my hon. Friend £17.7 million. Of this £17.7 million, the consultancy the Member for Ludlow (Mr Dunne), on 3 February costs specifically relating to the GOCO competition 2014, Official Report, column 85W, to my hon. Friend were £7.4 million. the Member for Henley (John Howell), we have no Consultancy support provides vital specialist expertise, plans to relocate 6,000 personnel within the UK as part knowledge and skills that are not available within the of the investments we have made in the armed forces’ Department. The breakdown against the six companies helicopter capabilities. involved is as follows: 551W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 552W

Redundancy £ million Concept Assessment Company Phase Phase Total Lilian Greenwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence pursuant to the answer of 27 January 2014, Booz 5.3 — 5.3 Official Report, column 413W, on redundancy, what CVA 0.5 — 0.5 the cost to the public purse was of redundancies for LEK 3.5 5.8 9.3 officials who have subsequently been rehired by his KPMG 1.0 7.3 8.3 Department. [187005] HSF 0.8 2.8 3.6 Jacobs 0.1 1.8 1.9 Dr Murrison: This Government has ensured significant savings to the public purse by reforming redundancy Total 11.2 17.7 28.9 payments for civil servants. More generally, we have Note: saved taxpayers some £2.2 billion from a 15% reduction These figures are estimates as at 12 December, rounded to the nearest in the civil service which is now at its smallest since the £0.1 million. The final costs will be dependent on submission of final second world war. invoices from the companies involved. Since 2011, around 10,000 civilian staff have left the As the Secretary of State for Defence, my right hon. Department under the terms of the Voluntary Early Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge Release Scheme (VERS); of these, 44 have subsequently (Mr Hammond), announced on 10 December 2013, been re-employed by the Department. The lump sum Official Report, columns 146-48, we will build on the payments made to these 44 individuals under the Civil DE&S Plus proposition to transform DE&S within the Service Compensation Scheme (CSCS) arrangements public sector, setting it up as a bespoke central Government amounts to around £1.6 million in total. trading entity from April 2014. Under the rules of the Civil Service Compensation Scheme (CSCS) an individual who leaves on redundancy terms is entitled to apply for another job in the civil Pay service. However, anyone who rejoins the civil service within 28 days of leaving would have their compensation cancelled and would have to repay any compensation Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for they had already received. Depending on the level of Defence what proportion of (a) permanent, (b) compensation received, individuals who rejoin the service temporary and (c) contract staff in his Department are outside the 28 day period but within six months of their paid the Living Wage or above. [186672] departure will have to repay their compensation on a pro-rata basis. These re-joiners will have been required Dr Murrison: The following table shows the proportion to compete in fair and open competition for their new of civilian staff currently employed by the Ministry of posts. Only five of the 44 individuals who were re-employed Defence and its trading funds that are paid at the rate of by the Department rejoined within six months, and the living wage or above as defined by the Living Wage only one of these five on a permanent basis. The individual Foundation (LWF). who was re-employed on a permanent basis within six months will have been required to repay their compensation Proportion of Proportion of in accordance with the CSCS rules. permanent staff temporary staff paid at the LWF paid at the LWF Department/agency rate or higher (%) rate or higher (%) TREASURY Ministry of Defence 98.27 84.20 United Kingdom 98.05 80 Criminal Investigation Hydrographic Office Defence Support Group 100 70.45 Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Chancellor of the Defence Science and 99.94 83.35 Technology Laboratory Exchequer which organisation his Department and its subsidiary bodies use to tackle internal instances of crime, including corruption and fraud; and whether he We do not have sufficient visibility to provide the has designated this organisation or any individual information requested in respect of contracted workers’ within it to grant authorisation for carrying out rates of pay, where paid by their parent company or directed surveillance under section 28 of the recruitment agency. Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000. [186716] The Government supports businesses that choose to pay the living wage. However, our prime policy is the Nicky Morgan: HM Treasury, and its subsidiary bodies, national minimum wage for the low paid. This is will investigate allegations of internal crime including independently set by the Low Pay Commission at a level fraud and corruption in line with its own internal that maximises their wages without reducing employment anti-fraud policies. However the Treasury does not have prospects. It is for workers and employers to decide the and does not need its own criminal investigation powers level of wages above the minimum wage based on or capacity for these purposes. If the internal investigation relevant circumstances. This includes the Government indicated that a crime had taken place the Treasury as a procurer and an employer. Around 20 million would refer the matter to the police. No Treasury Group employees, over 95% of the total, earn above the minimum official is able to grant authorisation for carrying out wage, and the majority of public sector workers currently directed surveillance under section 28 of the Regulation earn above the living wage. of Investigatory Powers Act 2000. 553W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 554W

Fracking Skills, as the lead Department responsible for national minimum wage policy, on ensuring the right policies are Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Chancellor of the in place. Exchequer (1) what consideration he has given to The Government takes the enforcement of NMW the possibility of creating a sovereign wealth fund from very seriously and is committed to increasing compliance the revenue proceeding from fracking; [186917] with minimum wage legislation and effective enforcement (2) if he will make an assessment of the experience of of it. Everyone who is entitled to the minimum wage Norway in creating a sovereign wealth fund from the should receive it. In addition to reviewing every complaint revenue accrued from the country’s natural resources that is referred to them by the Pay and Work Rights and the potential use of a spending cap. [186918] Helpline, HMRC carry out targeted enforcement where it identifies a high risk of non-payment of NMW. Nicky Morgan: Shale gas represents a huge economic I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave to the opportunity for the UK. It could create thousands of hon. Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain) on jobs, generate significant business investment and provide 16 January 2014, Official Report, column 628W, in substantial revenue for the Exchequer in the future. The respect of how many members of staff in HM Revenue Government will not be able to forecast the scale or and Customs were involved in enforcement of the National timing of this revenue, however, until more work is done Minimum Wage Act 1998 and its associated delegated to determine the extent of gas that can be technically legislation in each of the last four years. and commercially recovered. It would therefore be inappropriate to indicate now how potential future revenue would be used. Non-domestic Rates: Arts In addition, it should be noted that diverting revenues from the Government’s finances to a specific shale Mr Clappison: To ask the Chancellor of the fund, or one created by revenue from other natural Exchequer what his policy is on business rate discounts resources, would come at a cost. The money cannot be for (a) cinemas and (b) DVD rental shops. [186883] spent twice. The Government would likely need to either raise additional tax revenue elsewhere or cut Mr Gauke: As set out in the guidance published on spending, to maintain the fiscal balance. The Government 29 January the retail relief announced at the autumn has no plans to assess the possibility, of creating a statement will apply to sovereign wealth fund from this revenue. “occupied hereditaments with a rateable value of £50,000 or less, that are wholly or mainly being used as shops, restaurants, Free Schools cafes and drinking establishments.” DVD rental shops will be eligible for this relief. Mr Ward: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what guidance his Department has issued about the There are no specific business rates reliefs targeted on freehold and leasehold of school sites for potential free cinemas but both cinemas and DVD rental shops will schools. [186765] benefit from the 2% cap to business rates inflationary increases that was announced at the autumn statement. Danny Alexander: HM Treasury has issued no guidance on the freehold and leasehold of school sites for potential Pay free schools. High Speed 2 Railway Line Ian Austin: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many civil servants are on each pay grade in (a) Gregg McClymont: To ask the Chancellor of the his Department and (b) agencies and public bodies Exchequer what Barnett consequentials arise from the accountable to him. [187253] Government’s proposals for High Speed Rail 2. [187205] Nicky Morgan: The number of civil servants in each pay grade in HM Treasury, agencies and public bodies Danny Alexander: Barnett consequentials for High is listed in the Workforce Management Information Speed 2 for years beyond 2015-16 will be determined at published on data.gov. the next spending review. http://data.gov.uk/dataset/hm-treasury-workforce- management-information/resource/0f83ffee-4fc3-44bf-83fc- Minimum Wage 0bb9c6848d46 Andy Sawford: To ask the Chancellor of the Pay Television Exchequer how many full-time equivalent employees there are at (a) his Department and (b) HM Revenue and Customs whose work is dedicated to enforcing the Diana Johnson: To ask the Chancellor of the minimum wage. [186607] Exchequer whether offices of (a) his Department and (b) its Executive agencies have access to Sky Sports or Mr Gauke: HMRC enforces the national minimum an equivalent premium sports television service; and wage on behalf of the Department for Business, Innovation what the cost to the public purse is in each case. and Skills and in that respect, on behalf as Government [176439] as a whole. HM Treasury has a strong interest in national minimum Nicky Morgan: The Department does not subscribe wage policy and its enforcement and works closely to Sky Sports, premium sports TV services or any other with the Department for Business, Innovation and premium rate satellite TV services. 555W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 556W

Some subscription channels are provided to ministerial Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Chancellor of the and private offices in the Department through the Exchequer what will happen to the transferable tax Parliamentary TV service but at no additional cost to allowance of individuals when (a) their spouse or civil the public purse. partner dies, (b) they divorce and (c) they separate; The Debt Management Office, an executive agency of and after what period of time the change would take HM Treasury, has a standard commercial subscription place. [186759] with Sky for access to news and business channels. Mr Gauke: The draft clauses for transferable tax Productivity allowances for married couples and civil partners were published together with the explanatory note on Steve Baker: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer 10 December 2013 what recent assessment he has made of UK labour https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/finance-bill- productivity; and if he will make a statement. [187305] 2014-draft-legislation-overview-documents Where the person receiving the transferable allowance Nicky Morgan: Productivity in the UK has been dies, the transfer will remain in place in that tax year for rising for the three quarters to 2013 Q3 and is currently the purposes of the recipient. The personal allowance 2.3% above its recession low, on an output per worker of the person giving the allowance will be topped-up to basis. their pre-transfer allowance. The OBR expects productivity growth to strengthen Where the person giving the transferable allowance in 2014 and 2015 and to rise throughout the forecast dies, the transfer will remain in place in that tax year for period. both parties. Revenue and Customs Paragraph 10 of the explanatory note explains the options available to people where their marriage or civil Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Chancellor of the partnership comes to a legal end. Exchequer how many technical specialists worked in HM Revenue and Customs will make any changes HM Revenue and Customs Residency, the Centre for necessary due to death or the legal end of a relationship Non-Residents, in each of the last six tax years. as quickly as possible. The precise timing will always [184892] depend on the facts of the individual case.

Mr Gauke: Before 2010, it is unclear how many Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Chancellor of the technical specialists were working on residence as they Exchequer what proportion of (a) married couples were spread across different teams. The directorate and civil partnerships and (b) families with children he responsible for residency issues in HMRC is Personal expects to be eligible for the transferable tax allowance Tax International, Since its inception, the number of in 2015-16. [186760] full time equivalent technical advisers employed in this directorate as of April each year is; Mr Gauke: An estimated 4.1 million couples are set to benefit from the married couples tax allowance in Number 2015-16; one-third of all married couples and civil 2010 20.93 partnerships. 2011 18 1.4 million families with children are set to benefit 2012 19.35 from the married couples tax allowance in 2015-16. 2013 19.35 This is roughly one-sixth of the total number of families with children currently in the UK. It has not been possible to provide the equivalent figures for the two years prior to 2010. This is due to the Estimates are derived from the 2011-12 Family Resources effects of an internal reorganisation following a review Survey projected forward to 2015-16 using economic in 2009. assumptions consistent with the Office for Budget Responsibility’s December 2013 economic and fiscal Tax Allowances: Married People outlook. This policy is about signalling the value that the Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Chancellor of the Government places upon marriage as an institution Exchequer what recent estimate he has made of the regardless of couples’ choices to have children. financial effect of the introduction of universal credit on couples in receipt of the transferable tax allowance. [186745] Taxation: Environment Protection

Mr Gauke: The transferable tax allowance for married couples is a progressive tax measure, with two thirds of Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Chancellor of the the benefits going to families in the lower half of the Exchequer what plans he has to amend the carbon income distribution. floor price; and if he will make a statement. [186608] Universal credit (UC) claimants may see their UC award reduced as a result of the reduction in their tax, Nicky Morgan: Effective carbon pricing, including but will still be better off overall. No one will lose out the carbon price floor (CPF), is an important part of from the interactions of the transferable tax allowance the Government’s energy policy. for married couples and UC. The Government keeps all tax policy under review. 557W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 558W

Taxation: Self-assessment Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how much HM Revenue and Customs Gloria De Piero: To ask the Chancellor of the expects to write off in tax credits debt in 2012-13. Exchequer what estimate his Department has made of [186470] (a) the number of people who will be fined for failing to register for self-assessment to continue to receive Nicky Morgan: The information requested is available child benefit and (b) the total amount charged in fines in the HM Revenue and Customs Annual Report and for failing to register for self-assessment to continue to Accounts for the year ending 31 March 2013—page 141, receive child benefit. [186622] table 26.1 ‘Losses Statement’: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/annual-report- Mr Gauke: No penalties have yet been issued for a and-accounts-2012-13--3 failure to register for self assessment as a result of the introduction of the high income child benefit charge. Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Chancellor of the HM Revenue and Customs will write to those individuals Exchequer what recent assessment he has made of the who their records show have failed to register, to remind level of savings HM Revenue and Customs expects to them to do so and pay the tax they owe. make on reducing tax credits error and fraud between 2010-11 and 2014-15. [186483] UN Convention on the Rights of the Child Nicky Morgan: HM Revenue and Customs publish—as Paul Burstow: To ask the Chancellor of the official statistics—estimates of the level of error and Exchequer with reference to the Government’s fraud in the tax credits system on an annual basis. The commitment to give due consideration to the UN most recent figures relate to the tax year 2011-12 and Convention on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC) these, along with the estimates for earlier years are when making new policy and legislation, if he will available at: place in the Library all assessments of how new policy http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/statistics/fin-error-stats.htm#1 and legislation from his Department since January The 2011-12 estimate of the level of error and fraud 2013 has given due consideration to the UNCRC. is 7.3% of finalised entitlement, down from 8.1% in [186592] 2010-11, and is the lowest level of error and fraud since the current personal tax credit scheme was introduced Nicky Morgan: HM Treasury considers the impacts in 2003-04. of its legislative and wider policy work, including impacts The Government remains determined to crack down specifically on children. In the course of this work it on and tackle error and fraud in the tax credits system. consults with a number of expert groups and, in particular, HM Revenue and Customs aim to reduce error and works closely with Government Departments with lead fraud in the tax credit system towards 5.5% of finalised responsibilities on policies important for the welfare of entitlement by 2014-15, down from 8.1% in 2010-11. children. HM Treasury has been responsible for a number of decisions that will further the aims of the Convention in the UK. For example, Budget 2013 announced the COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT introduction of tax free child care, benefitting children Bromley London Borough Council (Crystal Palace) by providing families with support for high child care Act 1990 costs. All Bills introduced by Treasury Ministers are published Jim Dowd: To ask the Secretary of State for with a memorandum confirming that the Bill is compatible Communities and Local Government when he plans to with the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR), bring forward amendments to the Bromley London the provisions of which overlap with those of the UNCRC Borough Council (Crystal Palace) Act 1990. [186474] to a considerable extent. More widely, the coalition Government is due to Brandon Lewis: I refer the hon. Member to the answer report to the UN Committee responsible for the UN that I gave to the hon. Member for Croydon North Convention on the Rights of the Child shortly. The (Mr Reed), on 11 November 2013, Official Report, Department for Education is co-ordinating the response column 482W. with contributions from other Government Departments. At present, the Government does not have any plans Once the Government has submitted its response to the to bring forward amendments to the Bromley London UN Committee, a copy will be placed in the House borough council (Crystal Palace) Act 1990. My officials Library. will further consider what legislative options might be required to enable the rebuilding of the Crystal Palace Welfare Tax Credits over the coming months, once the ZhongRong Group have developed more detailed proposals and consulted Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Chancellor of the the public. Exchequer what the current level of tax credits overpayment debt is; and what estimate he has made of Certification Quality Marks: Iron and Steel such figures at the end of 2014-15. [186469] Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for Nicky Morgan: The information requested is available Communities and Local Government (1) what recent in the HMRC Annual Report and Accounts for the assessment he has made of the financial effect on small year ending 31 March 2013 at paragraph 4.27: and medium-sized businesses of the requirement for https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/annual-report- CE marking of structural steel; and if he will make a and-accounts-2012-13--3 statement; [187202] 559W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 560W

(2) what steps he has taken to reduce the impact on Housing: Floods small and medium-sized businesses of the requirement for CE marking of structural steel; [187203] Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for (3) when in the last 12 months he has met bodies Communities and Local Government how many and from the steel industry to discuss the requirement for what proportion of recommendations by the CE marking of structural steel. [187204] Environment Agency against granting planning permission for residential development because of Stephen Williams: The Department produced an impact flood risk was not complied with in each of the last assessment on the then proposed Construction Products three years. [184494] Regulation in August 2009. While there was no specific Nick Boles [holding answer 27 January 2014]: The assessment of the impact resulting from the CE marking Environment Agency is consulted for planning applications of structural steel, the impact assessment considered involving flood risk in specified circumstances. The how the changes would affect smaller firms more generally. Agency advises local planning authorities on avoiding The impact assessment is available at: inappropriate development in areas at risk of flooding http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20100104170521/ or, where development is necessary, how to make it safe http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/ and resilient without increasing flood risk elsewhere. planningandbuilding/constructionproductsimpactfinal The Agency reports the number of planning applications Unlike the Directive the Construction Products on which it was consulted for detailed flood risk advice Regulation repealed on 1 July 2013, the Regulation sets in “Managing flood and coastal erosion risks in England”. out simplified procedures for micro enterprises and Reports are available from the Environment Agency at: manufacturers producing products for specific projects. www.environment-agency.gov.uk/research/library/ There have been no meetings in the last 12 months publications/144594.aspx between Ministers in this Department and bodies from However, the overall decision is one for the local planning the steel industry to discuss the CE marking of structural authority to consider and weigh up the relevant material steel. However, officials are in regular contact with the considerations. industry. The most recent Agency report advises that: “Across all development types, 2012-13 is the seventh year in Community Relations: Hinduism succession in which over 95% of planning applications (where the outcomes are known) were decided in line with Environment Agency flood risk advice. Of the 68,903 new residential units Bob Blackman: To ask the Secretary of State for within planning applications on which the Environment Agency Communities and Local Government what financial has been notified of the decision, over 99% were decided in line support his Department provided to the Hindu with Environment Agency flood risk advice”. community in (a) 2010-11, (b) 2011-12, (c) 2012-13 With regard to the differences between the two percentage and (d) 2013-14; and if he will make a statement. figures: the ’over 95%’ figure is derived from the total [186227] number of notified planning decisions for all types of development; whereas the ’99%’ figure is derived from Stephen Williams: I refer the hon. Member to my the number of residential units for which planning answer of 29 January 2014, Official Report, columns permission has been granted within those notified decisions. 599-600W. This proportion has remained similar over a number of years, and is broadly the same proportion as when Floods: Insurance the right hon. Member was the Secretary of State with departmental responsibility for the Environment Agency Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for (on residential applications, the figures were 99.2% in Communities and Local Government pursuant to the 2012-13 compared to 99.1% in 2009-10). answer of 25 November 2013, Official Report, column Property Development: Floods 17, what assessment he has made of the number of properties offered under the help-to-buy scheme which Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for are in areas insurance companies deem to be at high Communities and Local Government how many times risk of flooding; and what discussions he has had with he has exercised his power of recovering a planning his ministerial colleagues on including such properties appeal to (a) overturn and (b) uphold a local in the Flood Re insurance scheme. [187155] authority’s decision to (i) allow and (ii) refuse a planning application for (A) housing and (B) Kris Hopkins: National Planning Policy is very clear commercial development on a flood plain or in an area that inappropriate development in areas at risk of flooding of flood risk in each of the last four years. [186800] should be avoided and any development that is necessary in flood risk areas should be safe and resilient, without Nick Boles: We do not hold the information requested. increasing flood risk elsewhere. New house building, All decisions on recovered appeals in areas at risk of including all properties offered under the Help to Buy: flooding will be determined taking account of the particular Equity Loan scheme; and most other forms of development circumstances of the case and having regard to the should not be permitted in functional floodplains, where provisions of the Local Development Plan and relevant floodwater has to flow or be stored. national planning policy. These important elements of national planning policy National planning policy is very clear that inappropriate have been in place for a number of years. The proposals development in areas at risk of flooding should be for the Flood Reinsurance scheme will therefore not avoided, but where development is necessary it is made include new builds. safe and does not increase flood risk elsewhere. 561W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 562W

Public Appointments Animal Experiments

Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Communities and Local Government how many public Home Department when she plans to publish her appointments his Department made in the last Department’s strategy to reduce the number of animals 12 months; how many such appointments are used in medical experimentation. [185282] remunerated posts; what the level of such remuneration is; and how many people so appointed are (a) women Norman Baker [holding answer 30 January 2014]: In and (b) men. [186392] support of the Coalition Government commitment to work to reduce the use of animals in scientific research, Brandon Lewis: I refer the hon. Member to the answer we published a Delivery Plan on 7 February that set out given on 5 February 2014, Official Report, column how the Government is supporting and encouraging the 301W,by the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster 3Rs—replacement, refinement and reduction—and the General, my right hon. Friend the Member for Horsham programmes and policies through which Government (Mr Maude). will continue to deliver its commitment. Roads: Lighting Antisocial Behaviour David Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what discussions Dr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for the his Department has had with local authorities about Home Department what assessment her Department has made of the effectiveness of current governance the safety effect of dimming street lighting. [186310] arrangements between local authorities and police Brandon Lewis: I refer the hon. Member to the answer forces for addressing anti-social behaviour. [186881] given on 10 February 2014, Official Report, columns 419-20W,to my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy Norman Baker: In many areas, the police and local (Guto Bebb). councils work together very effectively to tackle antisocial behaviour. However there are still too many cases of victims reporting the same problem repeatedly and not getting an adequate response. The community trigger HOME DEPARTMENT introduced in the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Alcoholic Drinks: Crime Policing Bill will give victims and communities the right to demand that local agencies, including councils, the police and registered providers of social housing, deal Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the with such cases. It will require them to work in partnership Home Department how many people were referred to and adopt a collective, problem-solving approach to each of her Department’s sobriety pilot scheme areas; persistent antisocial behaviour. how many people completed the scheme in each area; and when she intends to release the full project Asylum: Advisory Services evaluation. [187236] Norman Baker: The Home Office published guidance Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for the on Using Conditional Cautions with Sobriety Requirements Home Department if she will publish the specification in November 2013. Annex A to that guidance is a for the contract awarded to Migrant Help to provide summary of findings from the conditional caution sobriety advice services for asylum seekers from April 2014. pilot that took place between May 2012 to January [186795] 2013. Of the 92 eligible offenders, 68 did not consent to the sobriety conditional caution. James Brokenshire: I will place a copy of the statement of requirements for the contract awarded to Migrant Crown Prosecution Service authorisation for the caution Help to provide advice services for asylum seekers from was not given in five cases. There were three breaches of April 2014 in the House Library. a caution where the offender failed to report for the breath test, having complied with the conditions for Asylum: Syria between eight to 18 days. Hence, the conditions of the caution were complied with in 16 cases. Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for the Alcoholic Drinks: Prices Home Department what criteria her Department has adopted in deciding which refugees from Syria will be Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for the offered asylum in the United Kingdom. [184869] Home Department whether the conclusions of the research commissioned by her Department on the James Brokenshire: The Government considers each impact on minimum pricing of alcohol has led to the asylum application lodged in the United Kingdom, development of legislative proposals by her including those made by Syrian nationals, on its individual Department. [185890] merits in accordance with the Immigration Rules and our international obligations, including the 1951 United Norman Baker: The Home Office has used the Nations Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees. conclusions of the research commissioned by the In addition to consideration of Syrian asylum Government and carried out by the University of Sheffield applications under our normal rules, the Home Secretary alongside a range of sources of information to develop announced on 29 January plans to provide emergency legislative proposals related to alcohol pricing. sanctuary in the UK for displaced Syrians who are most 563W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 564W at risk. Under the new Vulnerable Person Relocation Addressing extremism in institutions by improving oversight scheme (VPR), the Government will work with UNHCR of religious supplementary schools, finding trained Muslim chaplains and other partners to identify the most vulnerable cases to challenge the extremist views on campuses and restricting the displaced by the conflict in Syria and relocate them to ability of extremist and terrorist prisoners to radicalise others. the UK. In particular, the programme will prioritise Departments will now provide regular updates to the help for survivors of torture and violence, and women Prime Minister on how their measures are being and children at risk or in need of medical care. implemented, their impact, and any further steps needed for an effective and comprehensive approach to dealing Mr Chope: To ask the Secretary of State for the with extremism. Home Department what procedures are in place to Council of Europe Convention On Preventing and enable individuals to offer accommodation to refugees Combating Violence Against Women and Domestic from Syria under the Government’s recently Violenc announced scheme; and if she will make a statement. [187099] Emma Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for the James Brokenshire: We are in discussions with partners Home Department when he expects ratifications by the including local authorities regarding the accommodation UK of the Council of Europe’s Convention on and support those relocated under the Vulnerable Person Violence against Women and Domestic Violence to Relocation scheme will need when they arrive in the take place. [187096] UK. The scheme aims to help the most vulnerable Norman Baker: I refer the hon. Member to the answer refugees, giving priority to survivors of torture and given on 12 November 2013, Official Report, columns violence, and women and children at risk or in need of 542-43W. medical care, and those relocated are likely to have very specific support or medical needs. We do not believe, Criminal Investigation therefore, that it is feasible to place them with individuals in the UK, and we have no plans to enable individuals Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for the to offer accommodation under the scheme. However, Home Department which organisation her Department the Government welcomes offers of assistance for the and its subsidiary bodies use to tackle internal scheme, and those who wish to help may want to instances of crime, including corruption and fraud; inquire with their local authority about ways in which and whether she has designated this organisation or they may be able to contribute. any individual within it to grant authorisation for carrying out directed surveillance under section 28 of Borders: Personal Records the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000. [186712] Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how much her Department spent James Brokenshire: The Home Office has an internal on the E-borders programme in (a) 2009, (b) 2010, anti-corruption unit within the Corporate Security (c) 2011, (d) 2012 and (e) 2013. [183279] Directorate, for the purpose of deterring, preventing, detecting, investigating and prosecuting corruption and James Brokenshire: Due to the ongoing legal arbitration fraud. between the Home Office and Raytheon, it is not possible Three officers in this unit are trained authorising to disclose any financial information relating to the officers for the purposes of the Regulation of Investigatory eBorders programme. Powers Act 2000. Community Relations Drugs: Misuse

Dr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for the Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what recent work has been Home Department pursuant to page 18 of her undertaken by the taskforce on tackling extremism. Department’s Evaluation Framework for the UK Drug [186290] Strategy, what assessment she has made of (a) the Impact Analysis project of New Drugs Legislation in James Brokenshire: The Prime Minister’s Task Force the Czech Republic, (b) the paper, What can we learn on Tackling Radicalisation and Extremism convened from the Portuguese decriminalization of illicit drugs for the final time on 26 November 2013. During the five in the British Journal of Criminology, (c) the King’s months of its operation, the Extremism Task Force College London Randomised Injecting Opioid considered a range of measures to confront extremism Treatment Trial report, (d) the report by the National in all its forms, including in communities, schools, prisons, Treatment Outcome Research Study, After Five Years, faith institutions or universities. the Department of Health and (e) the No. 10 Strategy On 4 December 2013 the Government published a Unit Drugs Project Phase 1 report, Understanding the document that set out the conclusions of the Task issues; and if she will make a statement. [186538] Force discussions and the practical steps that Ministers have agreed to address the gaps in our response to Norman Baker: The Home Office has reviewed a wide extremism. These include: range of evidence to develop the approach to the evaluation Taking steps to ensure local authorities are supporting people of the 2010 Drug Strategy, including but not limited to on the front line of tackling extremism, and intervening where the documents listed in the question. In addition, I am they are not taking the problem seriously; engaged in a study of international comparators. The Giving additional support to local communities which are on assessment of evidence to feed into the evaluation is the frontline of tackling extremism, and intervening where they ongoing and will continue throughout the evaluation are not taking the problem seriously; and process. 565W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 566W

Entry Clearances Human Trafficking

Dr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for the Paul Blomfield: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what assessment she has made of Home Department pursuant to the answer of the effect of the introduction of online visa 14 January 2014, Official Report, column 481W, on applications and booking systems. [186294] human trafficking: Victim Support Scheme, how many of the 270 males referred to the Salvation Army since James Brokenshire: Online visa applications have been 1 July 2011 were granted discretionary leave to remain introduced for all international visa applications and on the grounds of personal circumstances. [185646] are being developed and implemented for in country application routes. This is in line with the Government’s James Brokenshire: The requested information cannot digital by default agenda and streamlines the customer be obtained without incurring disproportionate cost. journey during the application process. As part of the delivery of this current programme of work a range of Illegal Immigrants research and testing has been carried out with customers to ensure the system delivers and continuously improves. Stephen Barclay: To ask the Secretary of State for the It is too early in the delivery of the current programme Home Department how many named illegal migrants to have carried out a more detailed review of the impact are currently listed on the (a) National Operations of these changes, however user testing and efficiency is Database, (b) Case Information Database, (c) central to the whole approach. National Allegations Database, (d) Migration Refusal Pool, (e) Warnings Index and (f) Watch Lists. [182841] Mr Bellingham: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many visa applications were James Brokenshire [holding answer 16 January 2014]: refused due to applicant error in the last 12 months; The information is as follows: and how many such decisions were subsequently (a), (b), (c) and (d) overturned at appeal. [186360] The Home Office databases do not record information on illegal migrants in the format in which you have requested. This James Brokenshire: The Home Office does not collate information could be obtained only by a disproportionately expensive statistics on this and therefore does not hold this information manual case-by-case search to collate the data. centrally.Moreover, there is no clear definition of ’applicant (e) and (f) error’ which could be used to do so. It is long-standing policy not to discuss either the specific information held on the Warnings Index and Watch Lists, or Entry Clearances: China details relating to the volumes of data on it, as to do so would not be in the interests of border and national security. Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many work visas have Immigrants: Detainees been issued to Chinese nationals in each of the last five years. [186730] John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) many immigration detainees James Brokenshire [holding answer 10 February 2014]: have been transferred from Colbrook Immigration The Home Office publishes quarterly and annual statistics Removal Centre to Harmondsworth Immigration on the number of work visa applications issued by Removal Centre in each of the last 12 months; [186543] nationality in table be_06_q_w within the release (2) how many immigration detainees have been Immigration Statistics. A copy of the latest release, transferred from Harmondsworth Immigration Immigration Statistics: Removal Centre to Colnbrook Immigration Removal July to September 2013, which includes these quarterly Centre in each of the last 12 months; [186544] data up to the third quarter of 2013, is available from (3) what the escorting arrangements are for the Library of the House and from gov.uk at the immigration detainees who are transferred from following link: Harmondsworth Immigration Removal Centre to https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/immigration- Colnbrook Immigration Removal Centre. [186546] statistics-july-to-september-2013/immigration-statistics-july- to-september-2013#before-entry James Brokenshire: The data requested about the Firearms: Licensing transfer of immigration detainees to and from Colnbrook Immigration Removal Centre (IRC) and Harmondsworth Dr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for the IRC can only be collated and verified at disproportionate Home Department what assessment she has made of cost. the effect of moving the firearms licensing system Tascor Services Ltd operates the Home Office escorting online. [186289] contract and carries out all routine transfers of immigration detainees to and from Harmondsworth and Colnbrook Norman Baker: We anticipate that moving the firearms IRCs. licensing system online will reduce the administrative burden and to a degree the cost of the current system. John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for We are working with police and stakeholders to agree the Home Department whether contracted companies the approach. However, we will not be able to measure receive a payment for each reception and discharge of the benefits fully until the system is fully operational. an immigration detainee. [186545] Moving the licensing system online will not however eliminate the gap between the cost of administering the James Brokenshire: There is no payment made for scheme and the income derived there from. each reception and discharge of an immigration detainee. 567W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 568W

John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the the Home Department what payments have been Home Department how many local authorities have made to (a) GEO and (b) Tascor in respect of introduced (a) a late night levy and (b) an early the transfer of immigration detainees from morning restriction order; and how much she estimates Harmondsworth Immigration Removal Centre to those powers (i) raised in their first year of operation Colnbrook Immigration Removal Centre in each of the and (ii) will raise in their second year of operation. last 12 months. [186547] [186833]

James Brokenshire: The Home Office does not make Norman Baker [holding answer 10 February 2014]: payment to GEO in respect of the transfer of immigration Two local authorities have adopted the late night levy so detainees between Harmondsworth Immigration Removal far. Newcastle upon Tyne commenced the levy on Centre and Colnbrook Immigration Removal Centre. 1 November 2013 and Cheltenham will commence its The Home Office does have a contract with Tascor in levy on 1 April 2014. A number of other areas have also respect of the transfer of immigration detainees between been actively considering the measure. Harmondsworth Immigration Removal Centre and Newcastle city council estimates that the levy will Colnbrook Immigration Removal Centre this is based raise £320,000 annually. on a rate per mile, the detail of which is commercially Cheltenham borough council estimates that the levy confidential. has the potential to raise annual gross income of £199,000. No licensing authority has yet introduced an early John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for morning alcohol restriction order. A number of areas the Home Department what payments have been have been actively considering whether the measure made to (a) Serco and (b) Tascor in respect of the could be of benefit to them. transfer of immigration detainees from Colnbrook Immigration Removal Centre to Harmondsworth Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Immigration Removal Centre in each of the last Home Department what estimate he has made of the 12 months. [186548] net cost to local authorities of implementing an alcohol licensing regime. [186834] James Brokenshire: The Home Office does not make payment to Serco in respect of the transfer of immigration Norman Baker [holding answer 10 February 2014]: detainees between Colnbrook Immigration Removal We will shortly be launching a consultation on regulations Centre and Harmondsworth Immigration Removal Centre. to introduce locally-set fees under the Licensing Act 2003. The Home Office does have a contract with Tascor in Alongside this consultation an impact assessment will respect of the transfer of immigration detainees between be published, which considers how to achieve recovery Colnbrook Immigration Removal Centre and of the costs of licensing authorities in discharging their Harmondsworth Immigration Removal Centre this is functions under the 2003 Act. based on a rate per mile the detail of which is commercially confidential. Misuse of Drugs Ministerial Group

Immigration Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many times the inter- Mr Gregory Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State ministerial group on drugs has met since May 2010; for the Home Department how many people she and how many times (a) prevention, (b) education, estimates have arrived in the UK seeking work from (c) legal highs and (d) treatments have been on the Romania and Bulgaria since 1 January 2014. [185858] agenda of those meetings. [186836]

James Brokenshire [holding answer 3 February 2014]: Norman Baker [holding answer 10 February 2014]: The Home Office has not made any estimates. Statistics Further to the answers given on 9 July 2012, Official will be published in the normal way by the Office of Report, column 82W, and 27 June 2013, Official Report, National Statistics and the Department for Work and column 353W, I can confirm that the Inter-Ministerial Pensions once they are available. Group on Drugs met on 10 July 2013 and 18 December 2013. Licensing Laws As was the case with previous Administrations, it is not the Government’s practice to publish details, including Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the agenda items, of such meetings. Home Department pursuant to the answer of 9 July 2013, Official Report, column 151W, on licensed Offenders: EU Nationals premises, what steps she has taken to consult on the implementation of full-cost recovery for alcohol Richard Graham: To ask the Secretary of State for licences; and whether she intends to implement this in the Home Department what steps she is taking to July 2014. [186832] ensure that EU nationals convicted of serious crimes are deported; and if she will make a statement. [184011] Norman Baker [holding answer 10 February 2014]: We will consult shortly on the regulations to introduce James Brokenshire: The Government is clear that locally-set licence fees under the Licensing Act 2003. It European economic area (EEA) nationals who benefit is our intention at present to lay the regulations in from the right to free movement must adhere to the June 2014. responsibilities this brings with it and abide by our laws. 569W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 570W

All EEA nationals who have committed a serious offence Pay are referred to the Home Office for consideration of deportation in accordance with the Immigration (European Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for the Economic Area) Regulations 2006. While a valid Home Department what proportion of (a) permanent, deportation order remains in force against an individual (b) temporary and (c) contract staff in her it prohibits that person’s admission to the UK. Department are paid the Living Wage or above. The Immigration Bill will strengthen the powers we [186671] have to deal with foreign criminals. It will seek to end the abuse of article 8 by ensuring that an appropriate James Brokenshire: All permanent members of staff balance is struck between the right to respect for family directly employed by the Home Office are paid the and private life and the wider public interest in controlling living wage or above. immigration and protecting the public. Additionally we The Home Office does not keep information on the will extend the number of non-suspensive appeals so level of pay of staff employed by organisations contracted that, where there is no risk of serious and irreversible to provide services within the Home Office. The Home harm, we can deport criminals first and hear appeals Office’s facilities management contracts will be reviewed later. We will look to apply these provisions to both this year. This will provide an opportunity to consider EEA and non EEA nationals. the contractors’ proposed wage rates and their proposals for service delivery.Government will always award contracts Passports on the basis of the best value for money for the taxpayers— which includes the low paid. Dr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for the We do not have access to salary data centrally for Home Department if she will assess the effectiveness of temporary or agency staff as these employees are not on the use of the Royal Prerogative to remove passports the Home Office payroll but we are working with suppliers from British nationals whom her Department want to to ensure that if these staff are engaged in employment prevent from travelling abroad to take part in extremist for 12 weeks, then in accordance with the agency workers activity, terrorism training or other fighting. [186537] regulations their pay and terms and conditions will rise to match their directly employed colleagues.

James Brokenshire: The decision to issue, withdraw, Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for the or refuse a British passport is at the discretion of the Home Department how many civil servants are on each Secretary of State for the Home Department, my right pay grade in (a) her Department and (b) agencies and hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), public bodies accountable to her. [187248] under the Royal Prerogative. On 25 April 2013, Official Report, column 68WS, my right hon. Friend the Home James Brokenshire: The number of civil servants (full-time Secretary set out the circumstances under which a passport equivalent (FTE) on each pay grade as at 31 December can be issued, withdrawn or refused. That statement 2013 is provided for (a) the Home Department in redefined the public interest criteria to refuse or withdraw Table 1 and (b) the Executive agencies in Table 2. a passport. Executive non-departmental public bodies (NDPBs) A decision to refuse or withdraw a passport must be are independent of the Home Office. They are responsible necessary and proportionate. A decision to refuse or for the employment of their own staff. This information withdraw a passport under the public interest criteria cannot be provided as to do so would incur disproportionate will be used sparingly and will be subject to careful cost. consideration of a person’s past, present or proposed The Home Office Executive NDPBs are the Office of activities. the Immigration Services Commissioner, Security Industry Measures taken for reasons of public interest, and Authority, Disclosure and Barring Service and the their effectiveness, are kept under continuous review. Independent Police Complaints Commission.

Table 1: (a) FTE of civil servants in the core Home Office by pay grade at 31 December 2013

FTE

Department 1.AA 2.AO 3.EO 4.HEO 5.SEO 6.G7 7.G6 8.SCS FTE total

Core Home Office 901 4,246 9,606 3,511 1,957 1,230 437 194 22,082

Data source: Data View—The Home Office’s single source of Office for National Statistics compliant monthly snapshot corporate Human Resources data. Period covered: Data is provided as at 31 December 2013. Extraction date: 1 January 2014. Organisational coverage: Figures are for the core Home Office (including UK Visas and Immigration, Immigration Enforcement and Border Force) only. Employee coverage: Data is based on full-time equivalents (FTE) of all paid civil servants, who were current as at t31 December 2013.

Table 2: (b) FTE of civil servants in the Home Office’s Executive agencies by pay grade at 31 December 2013 FTE Executive agency 1.AA 2.AO 3.EO 4.HEO 5.SEO 6.G7 7.G6 8.SCS FTE total

HM Passport 537 1,319 758 301 179 88 30 11 3,223 Office 571W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 572W

Table 2: (b) FTE of civil servants in the Home Office’s Executive agencies by pay grade at 31 December 2013 FTE Executive agency 1.AA 2.AO 3.EO 4.HEO 5.SEO 6.G7 7.G6 8.SCS FTE total

National Fraud 0 0 5 Less than 6 5 Less than Less than 25 Authority 5 5 5 1 Less than 5. Data source: Data View—The Home Office’s single source of Office for National Statistics compliant monthly snapshot corporate Human Resources data. Period covered: Data is provided as at 31 December 2013. Extraction date: 1 January 2014. Organisational coverage: Figures are for the Home Office’s Executive agencies; Her Majesty’s Passport Office and the National Fraud Authority. Employee coverage: Data is based on full-time equivalents (FTE) of all paid civil servants, who were current as at 31 December 2013. Redaction: Figures less than 5 have been redacted and replaced with the words ″Less than 5″, in line with Data Protection Act guidelines on the release of small numbers.

Police and Crime Commissioners what the level of overspend or underspend was in each such contract; and what steps her Department has Dr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for the taken to monitor the performance of each such Home Department what obligation exists on police and contract following the contract award. [183961] crime commissioners to adhere to the framework of national standards and authorised professional James Brokenshire [holding answer 22 January 2014]: practice. [186778] It has been the Home Department’s policy since January 2011 to publish details of all contracts with a value of Damian Green: The Anti-Social Behaviour, Crime £10,000 or more on Contracts Finder: and Policing Bill, proposes to give the College of Policing www.gov.uk/contracts-finder the power to set national standards. In addition, Home Department’s expenditure over Chief constables must have regard to national standards £25,000, is published at: concerning police practice and procedure set through https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/transparency- Codes of Practice issued by the College; Police and spend-over-25-000 Crime Commissioners must have regard to national standards set through statutory guidance issued by the Each contract has in place appropriate mechanisms college concerning the training, qualifications and to monitor performance. experience of police staff. Property Prisoners: Foreign nationals Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for the John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Home Department what the (a) name, (b) location, the Home Department (1) how many foreign national (c) floor space, (d) tenure status and (e) value is of prisoners, who were given temporary release to attend properties (i) owned and (ii) occupied by (A) her interviews with the immigration service at immigration Department and (B) agencies and public bodies detention centres operated under contract to the UK accountable to her. [187289] Border Agency, were transported to and from their interviews in each month of the last three years; [186541] James Brokenshire: Published details of Home Office properties can be found at: (2) what the cost has been of escorting foreign national prisoners, who were given temporary release http://data.gov.uk/dataset/epims to attend interviews with the immigration service at The value of the properties owned and occupied by immigration detention centres operated under contract the Home Office including leases held on balance sheet to the UK Border Agency in each month of the last is £663.5 million. This includes properties owned by the three years. [186542] Department’s sponsored non-departmental public bodies.

James Brokenshire: Foreign national offenders are Public Appointments not given temporary release in order to attend interviews at Immigration Removal Centres (IRCs). It is not possible to give the number of foreign Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for national offenders who were moved to attend interviews the Home Department how many public appointments at IRCs and the cost of those moves as this would her Department made in the last 12 months; how many require the examination of individual records at such appointments are remunerated posts; what the disproportionate cost. level of such remuneration is; and how many people so appointed are (a) women and (b) men. [186400] Procurement James Brokenshire: I refer the hon. Member to the Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Secretary of State answer given on 5 February 2014, Official Report, column for the Home Department what her Department’s 301W,by the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster 10 largest contracts let since the financial year 2010-11 General, my right hon. Friend the Member for Horsham are; what savings have been made in such contracts; (Mr Maude). 573W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 574W

Social Networking Dredging: West Sussex

Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for the Mr Gibb: To ask the Secretary of State for Home Department pursuant to the answer of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will take 28 January 2014, Official Report, column 483W, on steps to require the Environment Agency to dredge the social networking, what steps the Government is taking Aldingbourne Rife in West Sussex. [186520] to raise procedures for timely compliance of Twitter with requests from enforcement agencies. [186936] Dan Rogerson: Every year, in order to reduce flood risk the Environment Agency cuts and removes reed Norman Baker: Further to my answer of 28 January from the Aldingbourne Rife. This maintenance programme 2014, the Government stresses the importance of robust is regularly reviewed to find the most effective use of the working relationships with law enforcement agencies as available funding. part of its ongoing engagement with social media companies. Ministers will shortly be meeting with a The Aldingbourne Rife catchment drains out to sea number of companies, including Twitter, to discuss through a large tidal outfall at Felpham. Pumps allow what more can be done to protect people from online drainage to continue at all stages of the tide. This abuse. National Policing Leads are also in regular contact reduces the risk of flooding to Bognor Regis, Barnham with the social media companies to establish effective and surrounding rural communities. information sharing protocols. The Environment Agency and other local risk management authorities are working together to investigate Speed Limits: Rural Areas how to manage flood risk from multiple sources across the entire Aldingbourne Rife catchment. This work is Gavin Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for ongoing and will identify whether existing flood defence the Home Department what steps she is taking to assets need to be improved or whether additional ensure that speed limits are adhered to in rural maintenance work such as dredging would be beneficial constituencies. [187180] and cost effective. A preliminary view on the benefits of dredging parts Damian Green: Enforcement of speed limits is an of the Aldingbourne Rife compared to other options operational matter for the police. will be known by the summer of 2014. Individual police forces may also work with local communities and local volunteers to tackle speeding, Environment Protection taking into account specific local needs. Vetting: Taxis Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what the Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for the evidential basis is for the statements (a) in the Home Department what assessment she has made of Biodiversity Offsetting Green Paper that offsetting the effect of changes to Criminal Records Bureau guarantees there is no net loss from development and checks on taxi drivers. [186491] supports our ambition to achieve net gain for nature and (b) in his Answer of 9 January 2014, Official James Brokenshire [holding answer 10 February 2014]: Report, column 440, that in Australia there has been a In October, the London Taxi Drivers Association and 80 per cent. shift of planning application away from some larger mini cab firms raised concerns about the fragile environments; and if he will publish (i) that delays experienced by some of their members applying evidence and (ii) the record of discussions on this issue for criminal record checks issued by the Disclosure and during the trip to Australia referred to in his evidence Barring Service (DBS). to the Environmental Audit Committee on 23 October In response, the DBS undertook to actively follow up 2013. [186971] with local police forces any application from a taxi driver delayed beyond 45 days. Since being put in place George Eustice: The metric which underpins biodiversity last October, these measures have reduced the number offsetting accurately and objectively quantifies the impact of delayed DBS applications from taxi drivers. The of development on biodiversity and the level of DBS continues to monitor the situation closely. compensation that would be required. This will better enable local planning authorities to ensure that there is no net loss to biodiversity as a result of development. The metric will encourage the strategic delivery of ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS offsets in ways that contribute to Sir John Lawton’s Dogs: Imports principles of: ’bigger sites, better managed sites, and more inter-connected Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for sites’. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many dogs This can be achieved by encouraging aggregated and entered the UK from each country for (a) non- connected offsets of priority habitat. As a result, the commercial purposes under the Pet Travel Scheme and Government believes offsetting will contribute to its (b) commercial purposes under the Balai Directive ambition to create net gain for nature by contributing 92/45/EEC in each year since 2000. [186362] to the Biodiversity 2020 objective to create: ’more, bigger and less fragmented areas for wildlife, with no George Eustice: I have placed three tables in the net loss of priority habitat and an increase in the overall extent of Library of the House which set out this information. priority habitats by at least 200,000 ha’. 575W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 576W

The 80% reduction in planning approvals for the Fuels: Waste clearance of fragile environments comes from work by Dr Phil Gibbons of the Australian National University Mrs Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for (GIBBONS, P. (2010) ‘The case for biodiversity offsets’ Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when he plans to Decision Point 39, 2-3). Other evidence supporting publish a call for evidence on the refuse-derived fuel DEFRA’s consultation was set out in the accompanying market; and what timetable he has set for publication impact assessment. A detailed record of discussions of recommendations arising from that consultation. during the trip to Australia is not available. [R] [186826] Fisheries: Morecambe Bay Dan Rogerson: We plan to publish a call for evidence on the refuse-derived fuel market in the spring. The David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for timings for any follow-up consultation and Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will place recommendations on the way forward will depend on the most recent version of the draft Morecambe Bay the evidence submitted. Hybrid Fisheries Order in the Library. [186668] Game George Eustice: DEFRA is currently working with the North West Inshore Fisheries and Conservation Andy Sawford: To ask the Secretary of State for Authority on a final draft of the Order. It would not be Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment appropriate to release a draft at this stage, but we will he has made of the rise of the pheasant population and do so when the final draft is ready. This will also go out its impact on other wildlife. [186618] for public consultation. George Eustice: DEFRA has not made an assessment Floods: Chatham of the rise of the pheasant population nor its impact on wildlife. Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much his Marine Protected Areas Department spent on flood defences in Chatham and Aylesford constituency in (a) 2007-8, (b) 2008-09, (c) Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for 2009-10, (d) 2010-11, (e) 2011-12 and (f) 2012-13; Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps the and how much has been allocated by his Department UK has taken towards achieving an international for flood defences in that constituency in (i) 2013-14, agreement under the UN Convention on the Law of (ii) 2014-15 and (iii) 2015-16. [186365] the Sea including a globally accepted mechanism for designation of high seas marine protected areas before Dan Rogerson [holding answer 6 February 2014]: The the end of the 69th Session of the UN General amount the Environment Agency has spent, or plans to Assembly this year. [187008] spend, on flood defences projects in Chatham and Aylesford is as follows: George Eustice: In accordance with the commitment made in the Natural Environment White Paper, the Spend (£) Government is committed to the negotiation of a new implementing agreement under the UN Convention on 2007-08 124,000 the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) for the conservation 2008-09 124,000 and sustainable use of marine biological diversity in 2009-10 142,000 areas beyond national jurisdiction which should, in 2010-11 59,000 particular, address the designation of marine protected 2011-12 59,000 areas (MPAs). 2012-13 77,000 DEFRA, working in close cooperation with the Foreign 2013-14 1104,000 and Commonwealth Office, has played an active role in 2014-15 1222,000 discussions on this issue at the United Nations Ad Hoc 1 Planned spend Open-ended Working Group on Biodiversity Beyond Figures do not include local levy funding. The allocation National Jurisdiction. At its last meeting, a process was for 2015-16 has not yet been made. agreed to prepare for a decision to be made by the end of the 69th session of UN General Assembly on the Floods: Health Hazards commencement of formal negotiations for a new Agreement. Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for The UK will continue to press for an agreement that Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what research recognises the role MPAs play in the conservation of has been carried out by (a) his Department, (b) marine biodiversity when discussions on the scope, consultants for his Department and (c) agencies for parameters and feasibility of any future implementing which he is responsible on the effects on the release of agreement are undertaken at the forthcoming UN Working methane gas from rotted grass and other vegetation Group meetings. inundated by the recent floods. [186352] Pay Dan Rogerson: To date there has been no specific research on the effects of rotting grass and other vegetation Chris Bryant: To ask the Secretary of State for on the release of methane as a result of the recent Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (a) how many floods by DEFRA, consultants or agencies. and (b) what proportion of staff employed by (i) his 577W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 578W

Department, (ii) agencies of his Department and (iii) Dan Rogerson: The Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew contractors of his Department are paid less than the (RBG Kew) is funded from a variety of sources: rate defined by the Living Wage Foundation as a living Government, commercial income, charitable giving wage. [184445] including through the independent charity the Kew Foundation and other grants. DEFRA provided Dan Rogerson: The Government supports businesses £32.5 million in funding in financial year 2012-13, the paying the living wage when it is affordable and not at most recent complete year of data, out of total income the expense of jobs. The Government’s primary policy of £59.8 million. for supporting the low paid is the national minimum The total budget for financial year 2014-15 will be set wage which is carefully set at a level that maximises by the RBG Kew Board of Trustees as part of the wages without damaging employment prospects. annual business planning process. This plan will specify Core DEFRA has no direct employees paid less than the year’s activities, including those relating to its scientific the living wage. There is one agency worker in core research and conservation work, and the services provided DEFRA who is being paid below the living wage. This to the public by the gardens and will be agreed with equates to 0.9% of agency workers in core DEFRA. Ministers. AHVLA, RPA and VMD have no direct employees Waste: Exports paid less than the living wage. Mrs Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for CEFAS has two direct employees who are paid just Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what his policy below the living wage. This equates to 0.3% of staff is on the export of waste from the UK; and what employed by CEFAS. assessment he has made of the effects of the recent Fera has 17 direct employees, on an apprenticeship increase in exports of refuse-derived fuel on gate fees in scheme, who are paid below the living wage. This equates the UK. [R] [186825] to 2% of staff employed by Fera. There are 200 staff paid less than the living wage Dan Rogerson: All waste exports must comply with employed on two contracts, arranged by the core the requirements of the EU Waste Shipments Regulation. Department, providing services to the DEFRA estate. This does not allow the export of waste that is contaminated This equates to 35% of staff employed on these contracts. to the extent that it could not be managed in an It would be of disproportionate cost to examine all our environmentally sound manner. The Waste Shipments smaller contracts. Regulation applies directly in the UK and is supplemented by a set of domestic regulations, the Transfrontier Shipment of Waste Regulations. Plastic Bags: Recycling We are aware of concerns about the recent increase in exports of refuse-derived fuel and its effect on gate fees Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of in the UK. We intend to publish a call for evidence State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what shortly that will seek evidence on the market for refuse- provision exists for the recycling of plastic bags (a) derived fuel and the extent to which a market failure nationally and (b) in Gloucestershire; and if he will might exist. This will enable us to assess the effect of make a statement. [187211] increased exports on the UK market for refuse-derived fuel, including its impact on gate fees. Dan Rogerson: To reduce the overall environmental impact of single use plastic carrier bags, we have encouraged retailers to put recycling facilities for carrier bags at the WOMEN AND EQUALITIES front of their stores. This makes it easier for consumers Equality to recycle their bags. We have worked with retailers to gain better data on their front of store recycling facilities, Gloria De Piero: To ask the Minister for Women and and over half of supermarket stores (of those which Equalities how many and what proportion of have provided data) have such facilities available. While businesses participating in the Government’s Think this is good news, more can be done and we would like Act Report scheme have (a) conducted a gender pay to see more such recycling facilities provided. audit, (b) are publicly reporting the pay of all We do not hold data on the provision of recycling employees by gender and (c) adopted any other facilities for carrier bags in Gloucestershire. measures under the Think Act Report scheme. [186620]

Royal Botanic Gardens Kew Jenny Willott: Think, Act, Report is designed to drive greater transparency around the role of women in the workplace. The framework sets out around 50 measures John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for on issues such as internal staff policies; the representation Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what of women in different roles and grades; and pay scales. assessment he has made of the potential effect of costs Companies supporting the Think, Act, Report choose savings at the Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew, on the which measures are most suitable for them to report scientific research and conservation work carried out at against. the gardens; [186737] Over 160 companies are now participating in the (2) what costs savings he expects to make at the initiative, collectively employing just over two million Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew, over the next 12 months; people in the UK. All participating companies report and what assessment he has made of the potential against at least some of the measures in the framework. effect of such changes on the services provided to the Of those companies responding to a recent survey, public by the gardens. [186736] around half have conducted a gender pay audit; and 579W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 580W some participating companies, such as Friends Life, Esther McVey: Estimates on the number of children publish detailed gender pay gap information for each in relative low income, absolute low income and combined grade. The Government is encouraging more companies low income and material deprivation who are in a to do this. family where at least one adult is in work are available in Reporting the pay of all employees could be contrary the following table. to the Data Protection Act 1998, and is therefore not However, of the 1.5 million children in working families required by the initiative. experiencing relative low income in 2011-12, only 100,000 were from families where all parents (including lone parent and couple families) were in full-time work. WORK AND PENSIONS We do not believe you can accurately project child Atos Healthcare poverty to 2020. We know that poverty projections are rarely accurate. For example, IFS projections in October Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for 2011 suggested the number of children in relative poverty Work and Pensions with reference to his letter of 8 would fall by 100,000 in 2010-11, whereas in fact it fell January 2014 to the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland by 300,000. on the performance of Atos, when he will publish the Estimated number of children in relative low income, absolute low income and results of his Department’s monitoring of the delivery combined low income and material deprivation who are in a family where at least one adult works (Before Housing Costs), UK, 2011-12 and quality of service provided by Atos. [186619] Million Mike Penning: The letter of 8 January 2014 referred At least one working adult in family to the Atos Healthcare complaints process for a constituent. Relative low income 1.5 There are no plans to publish the results of the Absolute low income 1.7 Department’s routine monitoring of the delivery and Combined low income and material 0.7 quality of Atos Healthcare service provided. deprivation Notes: Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 1. These statistics are based on Households Below Average Income (HBAI) and Pensions what the average waiting time is for data sourced from the 2011-12 Family Resources Survey (FRS). This uses disposable household income, adjusted using modified Organisation for applicants for personal independence payments to be Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) equivalisation factors for seen by Atos Healthcare for an assessment in each household size and composition, as an income measure as a proxy for region. [186721] standard of living. 2. Net disposable incomes have been used to answer this question. This includes earnings from employment and self-employment, state support, Mike Penning: The Department intends to publish income from occupational and private pensions, investment income and other official statistics on personal independence payment sources. Income tax payments, National Insurance contributions, council tax/ from spring 2014. domestic rates and some other payments are deducted from incomes. 3. Figures have been rounded to the nearest 100,000. 4. Figures have been presented on a Before Housing Cost basis and therefore Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for Work housing costs are not deducted from income. and Pensions (1) what target his Department has set 5. When considering the living standards of children, measures after housing Atos Healthcare for the length of time taken to costs can underestimate the true standard of living as a family may make a choice to spend more on rent or mortgage to attain a higher standard of complete assessments for personal independence accommodation. payments; and what steps his Department takes when 6. All estimates are based on survey data and are therefore subject to a degree that target is not met; [186722] of uncertainty. Small differences should be treated with caution as these will be affected by sampling error and variability in non-response. (2) whether his Department has imposed any 7. The reference period for HBAI figures is the financial year. penalties on Atos Healthcare for delays that personal 8. In Households Below Average Income, a household is defined as a single person or group of people living at the same address as their only or main independence payment applicants have experienced in residence, who either share one meal together or share the living waiting for an assessment since April 2013. [186723] accommodation. This differs from a benefit unit (family), which is defined as a single adult or a married or cohabiting couple, plus any dependent children. Mike Penning: The Department has set both personal From January 2006 same-sex partners (civil partners and cohabitees) are also included in the same benefit unit. A household will consist of one or more independence payment assessment providers a target benefit units. The figures above are based on children living in households in for the length of time to complete assessments of 30 working relative low income, absolute low income, and combined low income and material deprivation, who are in families where at least one adult works. days. Source: The Department has robust expectations for provider HBAI 2011/12 performance and contracts include a full set of service Crisis Loans level agreements setting out expectations for service delivery, including quality of assessments and the number of days to provide advice to the Department. Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many people received more Officials meet regularly with both assessment providers than one crisis loan in (a) 2008, (b) 2009, (c) 2010, to discuss performance. Failure to meet contractual (d) 2011, (e) 2012 and (f) 2013. [187364] obligations will result in the Department applying service credits in line with the contract. Steve Webb: Table 1 gives the number of people who Children: Poverty received two or more crisis loans between 2008 and 2012. The figures are presented by calendar year. Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Secretary of State Table 1: Number of people who received two or more crisis loans between 2008 for Work and Pensions what recent estimate he has and 2012 made of the number of children living in poverty with Number of people who received two at least one working parent; and what recent estimate or more crisis loans he has made of such figures in each year to 2020. 2008 384,400 [186487] 581W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 582W

Table 1: Number of people who received two or more crisis loans between 2008 Mike Penning: There is no 35 day target for making and 2012 decisions on employment and support allowance. Number of people who received two or more crisis loans Paul Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 2009 539,000 and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 18 November 2010 581,800 2013, Official Report, column 669W, on employment 2011 508,100 and support allowance, (1) if he will set out (a) the age 2012 442,500 of those with a mental health condition who were transferred from incapacity benefit to an employment The Crisis Loan scheme ended on 31 March 2013. and support allowance work-related activity group 74,400 people received two or more crisis loans between without being seen by an assessor, (b) what medical 1 January 2013 and the end of the scheme. This figure conditions those on incapacity benefit had been includes loans that were received before 31 March 2013 diagnosed with for the period September 2011 to but processed after this date. November 2012 and how many such people have been Notes: diagnosed with each such condition and (c) what 1. The information provided is Management Information. Our medical conditions those transferred from incapacity preference is to answer all parliamentary questions using Official/ benefit to the employment and support allowance National Statistics but in this case we only have Management support group without being seen by an assessor have Information available. It is not quality assured to the same extent been diagnosed; and how many such people have been as Official/National statistics. diagnosed with each such condition; [186700] 2. The volume of applications and awards for crisis loans increased following the introduction of telephone applications in 2007-08. (2) if he will set out (a) what medical conditions In April 2011, the number of awards for crisis loans for general those transferred from incapacity benefit to jobseeker’s living expenses an individual could receive was limited to three in allowance without being seen by an assessor have been a rolling 12 month period, causing volumes to fall. diagnosed with and how many such people have been 3. All figures have been rounded to the nearest 100. diagnosed with each such condition, (b) what medical conditions those transferred from incapacity benefit to the employment and support allowance support group Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for after having being seen by an assessor have been Work and Pensions how many people applied for crisis diagnosed with and how many such people have been loans in (a) 2008, (b) 2009, (c) 2010, (d) 2011, (e) diagnosed with each such condition and (c) what 2012 and (f) 2013. [187365] medical conditions those transferred from incapacity benefit to the employment and support allowance Steve Webb: Table 1 gives the number of people who work-related activity group after having being seen by applied for Crisis Loans between 2008 and 2012. The an assessor have been diagnosed with; and how many figures are presented by calendar year. such people have been diagnosed with each such Table 1: Number of people who applied for Crisis Loans between 2008 and 2012 condition. [186701] Number of people who applied for Crisis Loans Esther McVey: InTables1and2Iprovide the relevant 2008 984,200 information requested where it is possible and not 2009 1,250,800 disproportionate to do so. However, as noted in the 2010 1,306,700 previous answer, decisions on entitlement for employment 2011 1,151,700 and support allowance are not based on a diagnosed 2012 1,067,300 condition. The decision to place an incapacity benefit Notes: claimant onto employment and support allowance, or 1. The information provided is Management Information. Our preference is to to support them onto jobseeker’s allowance, following answer all parliamentary questions using Official/National Statistics but in this the outcome of their work capability assessment is case we only have Management Information available. It is not quality assured to the same extent as Official/National statistics. based on the impact that such conditions have on a 2. The volume of applications and awards for Crisis Loans increased following claimant’s functional ability. the introduction of telephone applications in 2007-08. In April 2011, the number of awards for Crisis Loans for general living expenses an individual With regards to those incapacity benefit claimants could receive was limited to three in a rolling 12 month period, causing volumes who are reassessed and subsequently supported onto to fall. 3. All figures have been rounded to the nearest 100. jobseeker’s allowance, all of these claimants will have received a face-to-face assessment. Claimants are not The Crisis Loan scheme ended on 31 March 2013. found fit-for-work without a face-to-face assessment. 414,100 people applied for Crisis Loans between 1 January 2013 and the end of the scheme. This figure includes Table 1 shows the ages of incapacity benefit claimants loans that were received before 31 March 2013 but in the mental and behavioural diagnosis group that processed after this date. were referred for reassessment between September 2011 to November 2012, received a paper based assessments and were placed in the Work-Related Activity Group or Employment and Support Allowance the Support Group. (Figures for Great Britain only.)

Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Work WRAG SG and Pensions what estimate he has made of the number All Ages 71,900 69,200 of applicants for employment and support allowance 18-24 2,100 3,500 who do not receive a decision within the target waiting 25-34 10,900 13,700 time of 35 days; and what steps he is taking to expedite 35-44 18,600 16,300 such applications. [186211] 583W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 584W

(2) if he will make it his policy not to offer job WRAG SG subsidies for employing teenagers as auxiliary workers 45-49 12,600 11,400 in adult entertainment establishments; and if he will 50-54 12,500 11,100 make a statement. [187183] 55+ 15,200 13,100 Esther McVey: This Government took action to ensure Table 2 shows those incapacity benefit IB claimants jobs in the adult entertainment industry which might referred for reassessment between 2011 to November exploit jobseekers were not advertised through Jobcentre 2012 by diagnosis group and whether placed in the Plus. The Welfare Reform Act 2012 ensured that vacancies Work-Related Activity Group or the Support Group. which involve performing sexual activities were banned (Figures for Great Britain only.) from being advertised on Government websites and a distinction was made in law to differentiate between Diagnosis group WRAG SG WRAG SG performers and ancillary workers. Jobcentre Plus work All 145,300 146,100 126,100 69,100 coaches are specifically guided to only discuss these Diseases of the 24,400 15,300 22,500 11,000 vacancies with claimants who ask about them. Musculoskeletal system and Connective Tissue Financial Services Diseases of the Nervous 10,300 15,300 6,200 3,100 System Diseases of the Respiratory 7,900 9,800 4,900 4,600 Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for and Circulatory System Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer of Injury Poisoning and certain 1,700 1,600 2,000 1,200 4 February 2014, Official Report, column 207W, on other consequences of external financial services, on what dates (a) Ministers and (b) causes officials of his Department met (i) the CBI, (ii) the Mental and Behavioural 71,900 69,200 65,000 32,900 disorders TUC, (iii) Which?, (iv) the NAPF and (v) Age UK in Other 29,000 34,800 25,400 16,400 the last four months; and what the purpose of each such meeting was. [187363] Paul Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 18 November Steve Webb: The information requested is as follows: 2013, Official Report, column 669W, on employment (a) Details of meetings with external organisations held by and support allowance, if he will set out (a) what DWP ministers are published quarterly, three months in arrears, on GOV.UK as part of this Government’s transparency drive. medical conditions those transferred from incapacity Information relating to October to December 2013 is due to be benefit to jobseeker’s allowance after having being seen published in April 2014. by an assessor have been diagnosed with and how many (b) In the last four months Department for Work and Pensions such people have been diagnosed with each such officials have met representatives from the CBI four times, condition and (b) how many people put in the work representatives from the TUC on five occasions, representatives related activity group without having been seen by an from Which? nine times, representatives from the NAPF on assessor have been in contact with the work 13 occasions, and representatives from Age UK three times. programme; how many such people have achieved Officials have also met with some NAPF members. employment outcomes; how many people put in the Discussions have covered research findings, pension work related activity group after having been seen by protection following transfer of employment, definition an assessor have been in contact with the work of money purchase benefits, the new TPR objective, programme; how many such people have achieved GMP conversion and equalisation; complex multi employer employment outcomes; and if he will make a schemes, automatic transfers; commission; proposals statement. [186702] outlined in the consultation on charging; risk sharing, scheme quality; and decumulation. Esther McVey: The information is not readily available and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. The above lists are not exhaustive, as officials also have contact with stakeholders from across the industry Employment: Sex Establishments through working groups, roundtables, open workshops, and other collective forums. Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (1) what recent evidence his Housing Benefit: Social Rented Housing Department has about the future career choices of people whose first job is in ancillary roles in sex Chris Bryant: To ask the Secretary of State for Work establishments such as pole dancing clubs and massage and Pensions pursuant to his oral answer of 13 January parlours; [187117] 2014, Official Report, column 577, what the evidential (2) what assessment he has made of the future career basis was for his estimate of between 3,000 and 5,000 choices of people whose first job is in ancillary roles in people that may have been affected by the under- adult entertainment establishments. [187182] occupancy penalty since April 2013. [187104] Esther McVey: The information requested is not available. Esther McVey: On the information currently available, Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for we estimate the numbers affected are likely to be fewer Work and Pensions (1) if he will review the decision to than 5,000 nationally. offer job subsidies for the employment of teenagers as This is based on the assumption that if a claimant’s auxiliary workers in lap and pole dancing clubs, strip current claim started before 1 January 1996 they would clubs and in saunas and massage parlours; and if he have been entitled to the transitional protection and will make a statement; [187118] therefore affected. 585W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 586W

Gloria De Piero: To ask the Secretary of State for UN Convention on the Rights of the Child Work and Pensions what proportion of social housing tenants affected by the implementation of the under- Paul Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for Work occupancy penalty are (a) men and (b) women. and Pensions with reference to the Government’s [187175] commitment to give due consideration to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC) Esther McVey: This information is provided in our when making new policy and legislation, if he will equality impact assessment available from: place in the Library all assessments of how new policy https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ and legislation from his Department since January attachment_data/file/214329/social-sector-housing-under- 2013 has given due consideration to the UNCRC. occupation-wr2011-ia.pdf [186593] Gloria De Piero: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what proportion of social housing Esther McVey: The Department for Work and Pensions tenants who have moved to smaller social housing since is fully committed to considering the impact of all new the introduction of the under-occupancy penalty are policies and legislation, where they impact specifically (a) women and (b) men. [187176] on children. We have embedded equality analysis into the processes we use to develop, deliver and evaluate Esther McVey: The information requested is not available. our policies, practices and services. This ensures that we continue to assess the likely and actual effects of what Jobseeker’s Allowance: Disqualification we do on children, where applicable, and other groups with protected characteristics. The decision to publish Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for details of equality analysis is made on a case by basis by Work and Pensions how many people claiming the appropriate Senior Responsible Officer. jobseeker’s allowance were issued with a sanction in We place the interests and wellbeing of children and each of the last five years; and how many of these young people at the heart of all our work. While developing subsequently did not keep their claim alive. [187150] the 2014 Child Poverty Strategy we have consulted Esther McVey: I refer the right hon. Member to the groups representing children, and their rights and wellbeing, reply I gave to his previous question number 183792, on in the 2012 Child Poverty Measurement Consultation 22 January 2014, Official Report, column 248W. which ran until February 2013. The response is forthcoming. The information requested on the number of sanctions In addition we have consulted the views of children and claimants who subsequently did not keep their claim young people, and their representatives and families, in alive is not readily available and could be provided only a series of focus groups and events prior to the launch at disproportionate cost. of the 2014 Strategy’s online consultation. Prior to the introduction of new legislation detailed Service Charges consideration is undertaken to ensure that the Bill is compatible with individual’s convention rights; which Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for overlaps with the rights set out in the UNCRC. Work and Pensions how many of the 16 examples of More widely, the coalition Government is due to ineligible service charges, outlined in Universal Credit report to the UN Committee responsible for the UN service charges—guidance for landlords in April 2013, Convention on the Rights of the Child shortly. The are currently eligible service charges under housing Department for Education is coordinating the response benefit. [187368] with contributions from other Government Departments, Steve Webb: Housing benefit regulations stipulate including the work that the Department for Work and which service charges are ineligible. For universal credit Pensions has undertaken. Once the Government has the regulations say what service charges are eligible. The submitted its response to the UN Committee, a copy intention is that there should be no difference in outcome will be placed in the House Library. for tenants, landlords and owner-occupiers in respect of The 2012-13 measures consultation: what charges are eligible under housing benefit and http://www.official-documents.gov.uk/document/cm84/8483/ universal credit and the published universal credit guidance 8483.pdf on service charges makes that clear. Warm Home Discount Scheme: Isle of Wight Social Security Benefits: Medical Examinations Mr Andrew Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Work and Pensions how many households on the Isle and Pensions what the annual (a) staffing and (b) of Wight have benefited from the warm homes other costs are of conducting medical interviews for discount scheme. [187006] employment and support allowance and disability living allowance applicants. [187410] Steve Webb: The information requested is not available. The number of people who received a Warm Home Mike Penning: Atos Healthcare conducts assessments Discount in Great Britain in winter 2012-13 was around on behalf of the Department, at a cost of approximately 1.1 million; figures are not available below this level. £100 million per annum. This figure not only covers the total number of assessments undertaken across all benefits Work Programme (excluding personal independence payment) and all costs relating to written and verbal medical advice, fixed Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for overheads, staffing, administrative costs, investment in Work and Pensions what proportion of (a) all new technology and other services. participants and (b) lone parents have secured a 587W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 588W sustained job outcome following their participation in Greg Clark: The Government published its response the Work programme in the most recent period for to Lord Heseltine’s report in March 2013, accepting his which figures are available. [187151] recommendation to devolve powers and resources from central Government to local places. Esther McVey: Statistics on how many people secured Lord Heseltine is accompanying me as we meet all a sustained job outcome following participation in the 39 local enterprise partnerships to provide feedback on Work programme, including those who are lone parents, their draft bids. for the latest data available can be found at: https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/dwp-statistics- 10. Stephen Barclay: To ask the Deputy Prime tabulation-tool Minister what recent discussions he has had with his Guidance for users is available at: ministerial colleagues on devolution and https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/dwp-tabulation- decentralisation. [902513] tool-guidance Greg Clark: This Government is committed to Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for decentralisation of power and funding to local communities. Work and Pensions how much has been paid to Work Most recently, I, alongside my ministerial colleagues programme providers as (a) attachment payments, (b) from the Departments for local government, business job outcome payments and (c) sustainment payments and transport are going round the country to meet for (i) all Work programme participants and (ii) representatives from all 39 local enterprise partnerships jobseeker’s allowance customers since June 2011. to discuss their proposals to drive economic growth. [187152]

Esther McVey: The total paid to Work programme City Deals providers in the UK for all Work programme participants is £1,047 million, made up of: 7. Dr Thérèse Coffey: To ask the Deputy Prime £504 million Attachments payments Minister what progress he has made on the £242 million Job Outcome payments implementation of the second wave of city deals. [902510] £301 million Sustainment payments. The amount paid in respect of JSA customers (Payment 8. Mark Pawsey: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister Groups 1, 2, 3, 4 and 9) is £931 million made up of: what progress he has made on the implementation of £409 million Attachments payments the second wave of city deals. [902511] £233 million Job Outcome payments £289 million Sustainment payments Greg Clark: The Government is making excellent Spend figures are from the start of the programme progress in the second wave of City Deals. To date we through to 30 September 2013, the period covered by have conducted 12 deals with cities and I am confident the December 2013 Statistical Release. that we will conclude the remaining deals in the coming weeks. The Work programme is payment by results. Not only does the Work programme support people into Delivery of each Wave 2 City Deal is underpinned by employment, it is also designed with the crucial aim of detailed implementation plans, which were agreed with keeping them there. It encourages long-term private local leaders as part of their deal. These plans are sector employment, not a short-term fix. Providers are supported by strong city-wide governance arrangements. paid according to the results they deliver, not rewarded In addition to local delivery arrangements the Government for failure. will also monitor the delivery of each deal, ensuring that both cities and the Government live up to the Working Mothers commitments that have been made.

Gloria De Piero: To ask the Secretary of State for Enfranchisement: 16-year-olds Work and Pensions what estimate his Department has made of the benefit to the economy of mothers in work 9. Mr McKenzie: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister in each of the last five years. [186621] what his policy is on votes for 16-year-olds. [902512] Esther McVey: Mothers make a valuable contribution to the economy every year, with the 5.8 million mothers The Deputy Prime Minister: I responded to the hon. with dependent children in employment in the UK in Member’s question at Deputy Prime Minister’s Questions 2013 (Labour Force Survey, Q2 2013) accounting for on 11 February 2014. around a fifth of the workforce. Public Appointments

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER 12. Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister what role he plays in making public Decentralisation appointments across Government; and if he will make a statement. [902517] 6. Ben Gummer: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister What discussions he has had with his ministerial The Deputy Prime Minister: The Prime Minister takes colleagues on the role of decentralisation in the my views into account when fulfilling his statutory role implementation of the Heseltine review. [902509] in making public appointments. 589W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 590W

Colombia Angela Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change whether any Minister in Jim Shannon: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister his Department has visited Eggborough power plant in what discussions he had with (a) church groups, (b) the last 12 months. [186602] unions and (c) political opposition parties in Colombia on his forthcoming visit to that country. Michael Fallon: No Minister in the Department has [186502] visited Eggborough power plant in the last 12 months. The Deputy Prime Minister: I set out details of my Angela Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for visit to Colombia and Mexico at Deputy Prime Minister’s Energy and Climate Change what discussions or Questions on 11 February 2014. meetings (a) he, (b) Ministers in his Department and (c) officials in his Department have had with UN Convention on the Rights of the Child representatives of recognised trade unions about the future of the Eggborough plant. [186606] Paul Burstow: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister with reference to the Government’s commitment to Michael Fallon: Eggborough Power Limited has applied give due consideration to the UN Convention on the for an Investment Contract under the Department of Rights of the Child (UNCRC) when making new Energy and Climate Change’s Final Investment Decision policy and legislation, if he will place in the Library all (FID) Enabling for Renewables project. While the selection assessments of how new policy and legislation from his process for Investment Contract is ongoing, neither the Office since January 2013 has given due consideration Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, the to the UNCRC. [186582] right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr Davey), Ministers or officials in his Department have met with The Deputy Prime Minister: I refer the right hon. trade union representatives to discuss Eggborough’s Member to the answer given by my right hon. Friend FID Enabling for Renewables application or the future the Minister for Civil Society on 10 February 2014, of the plant. Official Report, column 552W. Angela Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what proportion of the ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Eggborough plant is owned by foreign companies. [186612] Eggborough Power Station Michael Fallon: Eggborough has been an independent Angela Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for business since 1 April 2010. The Department does not Energy and Climate Change what steps have been hold information on individuals or companies that may taken to prepare for conversion of the Eggborough hold an interest in Eggborough power plant. power plant to biomass before the decision not to award Eggborough a green subsidy. [186600] Angela Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what steps his Michael Fallon: Any steps taken to prepare Eggborough Department is taking to keep the Eggborough power for conversion are a matter for the company. plant open beyond 2015. [186623] Based on their provisional ranking following phase 2 of FID Enabling for Renewables, the three Eggborough Michael Fallon: I refer the hon. Member to the answer biomass conversion units that applied to the process I gave the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) on have provisionally been assessed as not being affordable. 28 January 2014, Official Report, column 517W. They remain in the process and have received a draft investment contract and have been invited to submit a Angela Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for binding application in March 2014. The final selection Energy and Climate Change (1) how many people are of projects and affordability assessment will be carried employed on a zero hours contract at the Eggborough out following the receipt of binding applications. power plant; [186624] (2) how many apprenticeships will be incomplete if Angela Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for the Eggborough power plant closes in 2015. [186625] Energy and Climate Change what the costs to the public purse were of preparation for conversion of Michael Fallon: The Department does not hold this Eggborough power plant to biomass. [186601] information. Michael Fallon: The Department has not provided Energy financial support towards any cost of preparation for conversion of Eggborough power plant to biomass. Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for Based on their provisional ranking following phase 2 Energy and Climate Change pursuant to the answer of of FID Enabling for Renewables, the three Eggborough 17 January 2014, Official Report, columns 703-4W, on biomass conversion units that applied to the process energy, what assessment his Department has made of have provisionally been assessed as not being affordable. the market share of suppliers in the non-domestic They remain in the process and have received a draft energy market in the last 10 years. [186085] investment contract and have been invited to submit a binding application in March 2014. The final selection Michael Fallon: The non-domestic electricity markets of projects and affordability assessment will be carried consists of customers who have their meters read every out following the receipt of binding applications. half-hour-HH consumers (big organisations that consume 591W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 592W a peak load of 100 kWh of electricity during a day) and Non-domestic gas non-daily metered market share non-half hour consumers-Non-HH (medium to small Percentage of market share: organisations). Supplier December 2005 December 2007 December 2012 The non-domestic gas markets consists of customers Shell Gas 16.05 0 0 who have their meters read on a daily basis-DM consumers Others 0 1.4 0.1 (high usage) and non-daily metered-nDM (low usage). Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for The following reports published by Ofgem show the Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has market share in the non-domestic supply market in made of the (a) number of switches and (b) number Great Britain in 2005, 2007 and 2012. of switches according to different indicators of 2005 National Report to European Commission: vulnerability in each collective switching scheme http://www.ceer.eu/portal/page/portal/EER_HOME/ supported by the Cheaper Energy Together fund. EER_PUBLICATIONS/NATIONAL_REPORTS/NR_2005/ [187037] NR/E05-REP-01-03Z_NATIONAL%20REPORTS_QU-UK- Michael Fallon: Table A shows the number of switches V2.PDF for each collective switching scheme supported by the page 41 for electricity and page 77 for gas. Cheaper Energy Together fund. Energy Supply Probe Initial Findings Report in October 2008: Table B shows the number of switches according to https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/ofgem-publications/82755/ different indicators of vulnerability in each collective 2013greatbritainandnorthernirelandnationalreportstotheeuropean switching scheme supported by the Cheaper Energy commission.pdf Together fund, which schemes were asked to collect. Most schemes asked questions during sign-up although pages 127 for electricity and 128 for gas. some sent consumers a follow-on survey. These questions 2013 National Report to the European Commission: were optional for households to answer since they contain https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/ofgem-publications/82755/ personal data so the figures may be underestimates. 2013greatbritainandnorthernirelandnationalreportstotheeuropean Schemes did not include all suggested questions due to commission.pdf concerns that they would put off households from pages 60 for electricity and 111 for gas. registering. Further data is available at the following link: The following tables show the market share for non-HH https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ electricity and nDM for gas in 2005, 2007 and 2012. attachment_data/file/253862/ Non-domestic electricity non-HH market share Helping_Customers_Switch_Collective Percentage of market share: _Switching_and_Beyond_final__2_.pdf Supplier December 2005 December 2007 December 2012 Table A: Number of switches Number of consumers having British Gas 27.54 26.3 24.3 switched/ accepted the offer E.ON (formerly 16.09 17.6 22.1 Powergen) Total 21,641 RWE nPower 22.16 12.9 8.8 Scottish Power 7.55 11.5 7.4 Isle of Wight Council 2,107 SSE 10.66 11.4 15.2 People’s Power 980 Edf 8.7 11.4 14.8 Centre for Sustainable Energy 1,242 Bizz 0 3.3 0 Exeter City Council 324 E4B 0 2.3 0 Eden Project 1,174 Opus 0 1.4 5.1 Birmingham City Council 171 British Energy 0 1.4 0 Changeworks 525 Haven 0 0 1.6 Community Energy Direct 618 Gazprom 0 0 0.2 Nottingham City Council1 136 Good Energy 0 0 0.1 Calderdale Council2 692 Others 0 1.3 0.2 Norwich City Council 354 Sheffield City Council 709 Non-domestic gas non-daily metered market share Broadland District Council 287 Percentage of market share: East Riding Council 1,786 Supplier December 2005 December 2007 December 2012 Coventry City Council 163 Cheshire East Council 301 British Gas 21.46 47.7 35.5 Woking Borough Council 1,043 E.ON 24.07 20.7 25.6 North Norfolk District Council 295 RWE nPower 6.10 8.3 0.8 Northumberland County Council 108 Scottish Power 0 7.2 1.0 Blackburn with Darwen Borough Council 857 SSE 0 6.9 5.7 South Tyneside Council 123 Total Gas 13.81 3.5 6.6 Peterborough City Council 84 Edf 0 3.3 0.3 Wiltshire Council3 72 Corona 0 1.0 11.9 Oldham Council4 5,084 Gazprom 0 0 6.5 London Borough of Tower Hamlets (part 73 Opus 0 0 2.4 of Big London Switch) Dong 0 0 2.0 Royal Borough of Kingston upon Thames 2,124 GDF 4.57 0 1.4 (Big London Switch)5 ENI 0 0 0.1 Tunbridge Wells Borough Council 209 593W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 594W

Table B: Number of switches according to different indicators of vulnerability6 Never Long term Household switched Benefits7 Elderly8 sick/disabled9 Children10 income11 before No internet

Total 1,713 5,285 2,012 791 2,551 7,470 1,954

Isle of Wight Council 310 790 27 81 348 875 People’s Power — — — — — — — Centre for Sustainable —— ————— Energy Exeter City Council — 17 55 22 19 131 73 Eden Project — 340 247 85 141 141 162 Birmingham City —2762125046— Council Changeworks — 100 89 — 242 236 — Community Energy —— ————20 Direct Nottingham City —— ————— Council Calderdale Council12 17 106 24 6 30 142 25 Norwich City Council — — — — — 245 23 Sheffield City Council 65 201 70 37 82 283 51 Broadland District 33 177 36 15 48 221 29 Council East Riding Council 375 1,052 388 104 490 1,224 1,102 Coventry City Council 54 67 39 16 65 42 41 Cheshire East Council 27 167 41 17 50 204 22 Woking Borough —— ———7207 Council North Norfolk District 37 202 52 11 57 221 22 Council Northumberland 21 60 20 1 26 78 18 County Council Blackburn with 140 433 168 52 182 307 87 Darwen Borough Council South Tyneside Council 24 58 24 4 31 90 15 Peterborough City 17 39 12 8 21 55 7 Council Wiltshire Council13 7457 312514 Oldham Council14 249 523 256 111 286 871 123 London Borough of 23 26 24 9 18 51 16 Tower Hamlets Royal Borough of 293 746 342 185 324 1,236 107 Kingston upon Thames15 Tunbridge Wells 21 108 30 13 30 — — Borough Council 1 Nottingham provided an instant switching service and a collective switching service. These results are for both. 2 These data cover an auction in January and April 3 These data cover an auction in April and June. 4 These data cover an auction in January and April. 5 These data cover an auction in April and June. 6 ‘—’ means data are unavailable. 7 Pension credit (guaranteed credit or savings credit), income support or income-based jobseeker’s allowance, income-related employment support allowance (ESAIR) that includes a work related activity or support component, child tax credit and has an income of £15,860 or less, working tax credit and has an income of £15,860 or less, undisclosed benefit. 8 Household contains someone aged 60 or over. 9 Household contains someone with a long-term illness or disability that limits their activities 10 A child under the age of five ordinarily resides in the household. 11 Household income below £13,380. 12 These data are only for April auction. 13 These data are only for April auction. 14 These data are only for April auction 15 These data are only for April auction.

Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for customers in each socio-economic group from each Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has collective switching scheme supported by the Cheaper made of the average level of savings made by Energy Together fund. [187039] 595W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 596W

Michael Fallon: We do not hold information on the Dan Rogerson: I have been asked to reply on behalf level of savings made by customers in each socio-economic of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural group from schemes supported by Cheaper Energy Affairs. Together. We have published data on a variety of other No permits were issued for the Preese Hall and indicators from collective switching schemes supported Becconsall sites as activities were carried out before by Cheaper Energy Together, which is available at this changes to environmental legislation. Details for each link: site of the quantities removed are held by Cuadrilla and https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ are available for inspection by the Environment Agency attachment_data/file/253862/Helping_Customers_ if required. Specific details of disposal for each site Switch_Collective_Switching_and_Beyond_final__2_.pdf cannot be revealed at this time because they remain commercially confidential. Energy: Prices At Preese Hall the majority of the return water produced was removed and treated at United Utilities Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for industrial effluent treatment facility at their Davyhulme Energy and Climate Change pursuant to the written water treatment works in Greater Manchester. From answer of 29 January 2014, Official Report, column October 2011 around 120 cubic meters of flow back 575W, on energy: prices, if he will make it his policy to that remained on site was stored safely until the summer require suppliers to pass on the savings from changes to of 2012. It was then used in a series of trials at further green levies to customers on fixed-price deals. [186719] industrial treatment sites. Waste drilling muds and drill cutting were also produced Michael Fallon: The Government sees no reason why as the well bore was being drilled during 2010-12. These suppliers should not be able to apply the same savings were disposed at sites licensed to accept waste under the to fixed and variable customers, and continues to make Environmental Permitting Regulations 2010. this clear, to the companies concerned. For activities at Balcombe, Cuadrilla was issued a Mining Waste Facility permit and a Radioactive Substances Flood Control Activity permit by the Environment Agency. Waste drilling muds and drill cuttings were produced during Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy the drilling activity. The disposal sites being used were and Climate Change what research has been appropriately permitted. undertaken (a) by his Department or (b) on behalf of At Becconsall waste drilling muds and drill cuttings his Department on the adequacy of sea defences to were produced as the well bore was being drilled during protect the (i) Sellafield nuclear site and (ii) low level 2011-12. These were disposed of at sites licensed to waste repository at Drigg. [186354] accept waste under the Environmental Permitting Regulations 2010, as issued by the Environment Agency. Michael Fallon: DECC has not undertaken any research on the adequacy of sea defences to protect the Sellafield Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State nuclear site or the low level waste repository at Drigg. for Energy and Climate Change if the Government will DECC is advised by the Office for Nuclear Regulation, ensure that any benefits that come from fracking will which regulates nuclear safety and security, that the be experienced by the whole country and economy. licensed site operators commissioned such research to [186919] inform their judgments on the adequacy of flood defences, and that the regulator is satisfied with those judgments Michael Fallon [holding answer 10 February 2014]: that adequate safety measures are in place to protect The Government is determined that the UK economy nuclear facilities at the sites against flooding risk, including will benefit from any shale gas development that might in worst-case scenarios. take place through benefits such as increased tax revenues, In addition, the Environment agency Shoreline greater energy security, growth and jobs. Management Plans (SMP) provide a large-scale assessment of the risks associated with erosion and flooding at the Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State coast. They present policies to help manage those risks for Energy and Climate Change what proportion of and sit at the top of a hierarchy of local authority and revenues from fracking he expects will accrue to (a) the Environment agency plans for coastal risk management. Exchequer, (b) local communities and (c) private The plans cover a 100-year period and take climate companies. [186920] change and sea-level rise into account. Michael Fallon [holding answer 10 February 2014]: Fracking While there is potential for shale gas to provide substantial revenue to the Exchequer in the future, until more work Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for is done to determine the extent of gas that can be Energy and Climate Change what quantities of liquid technically and commercially recovered, we will not be and solid wastes were produced at drill sites operated able to forecast the proportion of revenue that might by Cuadrilla Resources at (a) Preese Hall, (b) accrue to the Exchequer or to private companies. Balcombe and (c) Becconsall; what the composition of The Government is committed to ensuring that those wastes were; how and where those wastes were communities hosting shale developments benefit from treated and disposed of; and what permits were issued development in their local area. That is why on 13 for their storage, transport and disposal, for each year January the Government announced 100% local retention of activity on each site. [186169] of business rates for shale production projects. In addition, 597W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 598W the industry has brought forward a community benefits have not so far been able to identify a workable technical package which the Government has welcomed. At solution. However, we will keep open discussions with exploration stage, the industry will provide £100,000 the industry on this issue, and are committed to take per hydraulically fractured well site. The industry is also action, if necessary. committed to providing 1% of revenue at production stage. WALES Staff Wrexham-Bidston Railway Line

Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Alison McGovern: To ask the Secretary of State for and Climate Change what proportion of staff of (a) Wales which organisations are participating in the his Department and (b) agencies and public bodies group of stakeholders created on 22 August 2013 to accountable to him work outside of London; and in discuss the business case for electrification of the which local authorities such staff are located. [187266] Wrexham to Bidston line; what the names are of the individuals representing those organisations; and on Gregory Barker: The proportion of staff who work what date that group has been asked to report back for and those accountable to the Department of Energy with its recommendations. [187105] and Climate Change who work outside of London and the local authorities in which they are based are shown Mr David Jones: On 22 August 2013, I met with a in the following table. number of key stakeholders, interested businesses and local authority members to discuss the importance of Proportion of the electrification of the Wrexham to Bidston line to staff working the region. outside of Represented at that meeting were: London Local authorities (percentage) Chester and Cheshire West council; Comtek Network Systems (UK) Limited; Department of Energy North East Scotland 6 and Climate Change Deeside Industrial Park Business Forum; Denbighshire county council; Flintshire county council; Coal Authority Nottinghamshire, Tyne and 100 Wear, South Yorkshire, Liverpool City Region LEP; Carmarthenshire, Mersey Dee Alliance; Clackmannanshire, Merseytravel; Derbyshire, Glamorgan, County Durham, North Wales Economic Ambition Board; Lanarkshire, Pontypridd, Peel Holdings; Berwickshire TAITH; West Cheshire and North Wales Chamber of Commerce and Civil Nuclear Police Cheshire, North Lanarkshire, 100 Industry; Authority Cumbria, Cleveland, Lancashire, Highland, West Wirral council; Kilbride, East Lothian, Wirral Chamber of Commerce and Industry; and Surrey, Kent, Suffolk, Oxfordshire, Somerset, Wrexham county borough council. North Wales The hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) was also present. Committee on Climate —0At the meeting Merseytravel committed to Change commissioning a demand study for the Wrexham to Bidston line. Subsequently, the Welsh Government has Nuclear Cumbria, Greater 99 agreed to co-fund this study with Merseytravel and I Decommissioning Manchester, Oxfordshire, Authority Highland understand the conclusions from that study will be available later this year. Wind Power INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Sir Tony Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State UN Convention on the Rights of the Child for Energy and Climate Change what progress he has made in instituting safeguards to prevent the selling Paul Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for and operation of turbines which have been de-rated to International Development with reference to the allow them to benefit from higher tariffs; and what Government’s commitment to give due consideration recent assessment he has made of trends in the number to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child of de-rated turbines. [186916] (UNCRC) when making new policy and legislation, if she will place in the Library all assessments of how new Michael Fallon [holding answer 10 February 2014]: policy and legislation from her Department since Up to the end of September 2013, 110 turbines had January 2013 has given due consideration to the been installed under the Feed-in Tariff scheme (FITs) in UNCRC. [186589] the 100-500 kW band, representing just 2.2% of wind sites. Of these 110, only eight, with a total installed Mr Duncan: DFID has not put forward any primary capacity between 490-500 kW, had been de-rated. legislation since January 2013. Although the practice is therefore not widespread, we In our policies and programmes, the UK Government continue to take it seriously. We have discussed the issue supports children’s rights in all the countries where we with RenewablesUK and turbine manufacturers but work. This includes tackling the problems that threaten 599W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 600W these rights, e.g. conflict, poor governance, extreme being under the influence of legal highs was a poverty, economic development, and climate change. contributing factor in each of the last five years. We also provide resources for delivering better health [186967] and education, water and sanitation, nutrition and protection. We also support efforts to engage children Mr Vara: If someone is convicted of driving or as active participants in their societies. attempting to drive a mechanically powered vehicle More widely, the Government is shortly due to whilst unfit due to drink or drugs, they face a custodial report to the UN Committee responsible for the UN sentence of up to six months and an obligatory driving Convention on the Rights of the Child. The Department disqualification of at least 12 months. Maximum penalties for Education is co-ordinating the response with of 14 years’ imprisonment are also available for those contributions from other Government Departments, who cause death through dangerous driving or by careless including DFID. Once the Government has submitted driving when under the influence of drink or drugs - its response to the UN Committee, a copy will be placed and courts impose very severe sentences for these offences. in the House Library. Information held centrally by the Ministry’ of Justice on the Court Proceedings Database does not, however, contain information about the circumstances behind JUSTICE each case, beyond the description provided in the statute under which proceedings are brought. It is not possible Contempt of Court to identify from this centrally held information prosecutions John Hemming: To ask the Secretary of State for brought under section 4 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, Justice how many people were imprisoned in each in which the use of legal highs was a contributing division in each month since May 2013 for contempt of factor. This detailed information may be held on the court. [186598] court record but due to the size and complexity is not reported centrally to the MOJ. As such, the information Jeremy Wright: The following table sets out the number requested can be obtained only at disproportionate of people who were received into custody for contempt cost. of court between May 2013 and September 2013 (the Hezbollah latest available figures). Contempt of court covers a wide variety of conduct which undermines or has the Dr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice potential to undermine the course of justice. whether any individuals in England or Wales have been found guilty of fundraising for Hezbollah’s proscribed Number of people received into custody for contempt of court military wing to date. [186506]

May 2013 11 James Brokenshire: I have been asked to reply on June 2013 8 behalf of the Home Department. July 2013 13 Since the proscription of the Hezbollah military wing, August 2013 14 no individuals have been convicted of fundraising for September 2013 7 Hezbollah’s military wing. These figures have been drawn from administrative Homicide: Children IT systems which, as with any large scale recording system, are subject to possible errors with data entry Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for and processing. Justice how many (a) men and (b) women have been Dangerous Driving convicted of murdering one or more of their children in each of the last five years. [186599] Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what discussions he has had with the Secretary of State Norman Baker: I have been asked to reply on behalf for Transport about the 38 per cent rise in fatalities of the Home Department. caused by dangerous driving in the last 12 months; and The available information is given in the table and is what steps he is taking in response to that rise. [186006] taken from the Home Office Homicide Index. The data given cover the period 2007-08 to 2011-12. The latest Damian Green: The UK has one of the best road homicide statistics for 2012-13 will be released on safety records in the world, but every death is a tragedy 13 February 2014 in the ‘Focus on: Violent Crime and for the victim and family and close friends. We are in Sexual Offences’ publication which will be available on regular contact with the Department for Transport to the Office for National Statistics website. ensure that maximum penalties for serious road traffic The circumstances surrounding a homicide can be offences properly reflect the culpability of offenders complex and it can take time for cases to pass through and to improve the skills and attitudes of drivers and the criminal justice system. Due to this, there are a riders to reduce the number of fatal collisions. The number of homicide cases where criminal proceedings latest statistics indicate that the number of offenders have yet to reach a conclusion. proceeded against for causing death by dangerous Suspects convicted of murdering one or more of their children1 by sex of suspect, driving has fallen since 2010, while sentence lengths 2007-08 to 2011-122—England and Wales have increased. Number Driving under Influence: Drugs Conviction 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for Male suspects Justice how many prosecutions have been brought Murder 13 5 8 2 3 under section 4 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, where Other manslaughter 6 7 5 1 2 601W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 602W

Suspects convicted of murdering one or more of their children1 by sex of suspect, Prison Service: Staff 2007-08 to 2011-122—England and Wales Number Conviction 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (1) which prisons have reported staff shortages that Section 2 10201have required staff to be called in from other prisons in manslaughter (diminished each month since May 2010; [185049] responsibility) (2) which prisons have used staff on deferred duty Infanticide 0 0 0 0 0 from other prisons in each month since May 2010. Total convicted of 20 12 15 3 6 homicide [185050]

Female suspects Jeremy Wright: Information on the number of prisons both reporting staff shortages and using staff on detached Murder 3 2 3 0 1 duty from other prisons is not available centrally and Other manslaughter 4 3 2 0 2 could not be obtained without incurring disproportionate Section 2 23340 manslaughter cost. (diminished responsibility) Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Infanticide 0 1 0 2 1 (1) how many staff in the Prison Service have been on Total convicted of 99864 homicide deferred duty in each month since May 2010; [185135] (2) how much was spent on (a) travel, (b) Total 292123910accommodation and (c) subsistence costs for deferred 1 As at 1 November 2012; figures are subject la revision as cases are dealt with duty cover for staff in the Prison Service each month by the police and the courts, or as further information becomes available. since May 2010. [185161] 2 Includes victims of all ages. Source: Homicide Index, Home Office Jeremy Wright: We have interpreted the question to refer to detached duty, the term deferred duty is not Northern Ireland used by the National Offender Management Service. Information on the number of staff that have been on Dr Alasdair McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State detached duty and information on the cost incurred, for Justice what assets his Department has sold in broken down by travel, accommodation and subsistence Northern Ireland in each of the last five years; and costs, is not available centrally and could not be obtained what the value of each such sale was. [186636] without incurring disproportionate cost.

Mr Vara: The Ministry of Justice has not sold any Prisoners: Foreign Nationals assets in Northern Ireland in the last five years. Mr Davidson: To ask the Secretary of State for Oakwood Prison Justice pursuant to the oral answer of 15 October 2013, Official Report, columns 681-2W, on prisoners: foreign Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice national, how many of the foreign national offenders how many staff on each grade have (a) been recruited listed in that answer (a) have been released, (b) have to work in HM Prison Oakwood and (b) left in each been deported and (c) are still detained; and if he will year since that prison opened. [183149] make a statement. [184547]

Jeremy Wright: The information requested is not James Brokenshire: I have been asked to reply on collected centrally and could not be obtained without behalf of the Home Department. incurring disproportionate cost. At HMP Oakwood, staff are employed by a number of providers to deliver a The following table shows the number of foreign range of services including, for example, probation national offenders listed in the answer of 15 October services, education and healthcare, as well as custodial 2013, Official Report, columns 681-2W, on prisoners: services. foreign national who have been (a) released, (b) have been deported and (c) are still detained. Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (1) how many and what proportion of the senior Number management working at HM Prison Oakwood when it Released 49 took its first prisoners had previous experience of Deported/Removed 200 working in a prison; [184030] Detained (Immigration Detention or 14 (2) how many of the senior management at HM Custodial) Prison Oakwood had (a) no, (b) up to six months, (c) Concluded 36 between six and 12 months and (d) over 12 months Grand total 299 previous experience working in a prison at the time of Notes: 1. ‘Released’ and ‘Detained’ figures from live Criminal Casework data as of 27 that prison’s opening. [184031] January 2014. 2. ‘Deported/Removed’ figures taken from published FNO removals data—January Jeremy Wright: The information requested could not 2010 to September 2013 and current financial year data to 25 January 2014. 3. ‘Concluded’ relates to cases that have been concluded as a result of an be obtained at present. I will write to the right hon. allowed appeal/grant of leave to remain, or no longer of interest to Criminal Member in due course. Casework. 603W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 604W

John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for The plan for the new prison in Wrexham is that it will Justice how many foreign national prisoners have been be constructed to Category B standard comprising of given temporary release to attend interviews at three four-storey house blocks with a compound surrounded immigration detention centres operated under contract by a secure fence measuring 5.2 metres. to the UK Border Agency in each month of the last three years. [186540] Probation Jeremy Wright: Central data is not held on how many foreign national prisoners have been given release on Mr Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice temporary licence and for what reasons. This information whether the Magistrates’ Association has raised any could only be obtained by a manual check of the concerns in respect of the probation change records of all instances of prisoners being released on programme. [186656] temporary license, which would incur disproportionate cost. It is not however, usual practice for foreign national Jeremy Wright: In May 2013, we published ‘Transforming prisoners to be given release on temporary licence for Rehabilitation—a strategy for reform’, which set out this purpose. In circumstances where the Home Office our response to our earlier, wide consultation ‘Transforming is required to interview foreign national prisoners, Rehabilitation—a revolution in the way we manage Immigration Enforcement staff will attend the relevant offenders’. In producing that document we consulted prison to carry out this task. widely and received nearly 600 formal responses and Prisoners: Self-harm held 14 consultation events which were attended by over 800 stakeholders. The Magistrates’ Association welcomed Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice the Government’s intention to have short sentenced what steps he is taking to reduce the incidence of prisoners supervised after release and asked a number self-harm among women in prison. [186794] of questions about the reforms. Officials and Ministers have regular discussions with all stakeholders to the Jeremy Wright: The Government is committed to Transforming Rehabilitation Programme, including the reducing the incidence of self-harm in prisons. All Magistrates’ Association, and the views received have prisons are required to have procedures in place to been invaluable in informing these reforms. identify, manage and support people who are at risk of harm to themselves. These procedures include the Assessment, Care in Custody and Teamwork (ACCT) Victim Support Schemes process, which is a prisoner-centred, flexible care planning system for prisoners identified as at risk of suicide or Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice self-harm. The ACCT process is designed to ensure that what plans he has to regionalise victims services all prisoners are managed in a way that is responsive to currently run by Probation Trusts in England and individual needs and risks, including those related to Wales. [186842] gender. Jeremy Wright: The Probation Victim Contact Scheme Prisons: Police (VCS), which was established in 2001, provides valuable support to victims of offenders who receive a sentence Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice of imprisonment of 12 months or more or a hospital how many times, and to which prisons, the police were order for a violent or sexual offence. The VCS enables called out in each month since May 2010. [186838] victims to be informed of key stages of an offender’s sentence, such as if they are transferred to open conditions Jeremy Wright: The police will attend prisons in or released. Victims also have the statutory right to respect of a range of crimes when requested to do so. make representations about the licence conditions to which The information on the number of times police attend the offender should be subject on release, to re-assure each prison is not recorded centrally. It could be provided and protect them. only at disproportionate cost by collating the relevant In cases where the offender’s case is reviewed by the information from records held by each prison establishment. Parole Board, victims have a right to submit a victim Prisons: Wrexham personal statement to the Parole Board, setting out the impact of the offence against them, and what the impact Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice of release will be. If the Parole Board holds an oral (1) if he will publish the shortlist of contractors for the hearing, victims can apply to read their statement to the Parole Board panel, with the presumption that this will construction of the prison at Wrexham; [186762] be agreed. The new Victims’ Code, which was published (2) if he will publish the specifications for the design in October 2013, enshrines the entitlement for victims of the proposed prison at Wrexham. [186764] to make a VPS to the Parole Board. Jeremy Wright: The following companies have been Currently, each Probation Trust has responsibility for shortlisted as potential prime constructors of the new the operation of the Victim Contact Scheme. Under the prison in Wrexham: Transforming Rehabilitation Programme, the Victim Contact Scheme will be delivered by the new National Interserve; Probation Service (NPS). The NPS will be divided into Carillion; six regions and one nation (Wales), and each region will Lend Lease; and have responsibility for the operation of the Victim Kier. Contact Scheme. 605W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 606W

CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Northern Ireland

Betting Shops Dr Alasdair McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what assets her Paul Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for Department has sold in Northern Ireland in each of Culture, Media and Sport (1) when the regulations the last five years; and what the value of each such sale governing the staffing of betting shops were last was. [186568] reviewed; and if she will make a statement; [186525] (2) what assessment her Department has made of the Mrs Grant: The Department sold no assets in Northern arrangements to ensure the safety of staff single- Ireland in the last five years. working in betting shops; and if she will make a statement; [186670] (3) what recent representations her Department has Tourism: Northern Ireland received on the safety of staff working on their own in betting shops. [186669] Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what discussions she has had Mrs Grant: Like any workplace, betting premises with the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Investment must operate within the requirements of the Hearth in the Northern Ireland Executive on promoting and Safety at Work Act and the Management of Health Northern Ireland as a tourist destination. [186782] and Safety at Work Regulations 1999. In addition, the Gambling Act 2005 provides powers to local authorities to attach conditions to a betting shop’s Mrs Grant: I have not held any discussions with the premises licence to ensure that it meets its obligations in Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Investment in the upholding the licensing objectives of the Act; the Northern Ireland Executive on promoting Northern Government regularly reviews and assesses the effectiveness Ireland as a tourist destination since tourism is a devolved of these measures. matter. The cross-government GREAT campaign does promote tourism to the United Kingdom as a whole. There is evidence that some local authorities are using these powers to good effect to impose licence conditions on betting shops including a requirement to have a minimum of two members of staff on duty UN Convention on the Rights of the Child throughout the whole day. I receive representations on a range of matters in relation to betting shops. Paul Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport with reference to the Buildings Government’s commitment to give due consideration to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for (UNCRC) when making new policy and legislation, if Culture, Media and Sport what proportion of the she will place in the Library all assessments of how new office space owned or leased by her Department is not policy and legislation from her Department since in regular use; what the total (a) rental and (b) retail January 2013 has given due consideration to the value is of all such unused office space; and if she will UNCRC. [186580] place in the Library a copy of her most recent departmental real estate valuation. [186861] Caroline Nokes: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport if she will place in the Mrs Grant: The Department only occupies leased Library all assessments of new policy and legislation office accommodation, through operating leases. All of undertaken by her Department since January 2013 the office space leased by the Department is in regular which give due consideration to the UN Convention on use. the Rights of the Child. [185806]

Local Broadcasting Mrs Grant: The Department for Culture, Media and Sport is committed to considering the impact of all new Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for policies and legislation, including where they impact Culture, Media and Sport what discussions she has had specifically on children. The Department consults with with Ofcom on the position of local television stations a range of expert groups, including the National Society in Wales and Scotland on the electronic programme for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, to ensure the guide. [187004] best interests of a child are represented within our work. Mr Vaizey: As set out in Connectivity, Content, More widely, the coalition Government is due to Consumers: Britain’s Digital Platform for Growth, we report to the UN Committee responsible for the UN want to maintain the prominence of our Public Service Convention on the Rights of the Child shortly. The Broadcasters (PSBs), and we intend to launch a consultation Department for Education is co-ordinating the response shortly on how best to do so. In that context, my with contributions from other Government Departments, officials have had a number of discussions with Ofcom including the work that the Department for Culture, about the prominence of PSB channels, including local Media and Sport has undertaken. Once the Government TV services, in light of the specific concerns of local TV has submitted its response to the UN Committee, a stations in Scotland and Wales. copy will be placed in the House Library. 607W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 608W

CABINET OFFICE HEALTH Abortion Criminal Investigation Jim Dobbin: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet pursuant to the answer of 3 February 2014, Official Office which organisation his Department and its Report, columns 65-66W, on abortion, if his subsidiary bodies use to tackle internal instances of Department will review data collection protocols in crime, including corruption and fraud; and whether he order to record how many doctors have been has designated this organisation or any individual challenged to defend their decision to refer for an within it to grant authorisation for carrying out abortion and how many such challenges have been directed surveillance under section 28 of the overturned. [186549] Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000. [186704] Jane Ellison: The Abortion Regulations 1991 require Mr Hurd: The Department for Communities and that registered medical practitioners notify the chief Local Government provides internal audit services through medical officer on form HSA4 of every abortion they shared services for the Cabinet Office, including the have performed. The information required to be completed investigation of reported frauds. on the HSA4 form is set out in the regulations. There are no plans to amend the regulations or the HSA4 The choice of type and means of investigation will be form to collect information on whether one or both of based on the circumstances of the case and be proportionate the certifying doctors have been challenged about their to the seriousness of the suspected offence. decision that there are grounds for an abortion. No organisation or individual has been granted authorisation to carry out directed surveillance under Accident and Emergency Departments: Dental Services section 28 of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act. Mr Jamie Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what the cost to the NHS is of patients who require emergency dental treatment presenting at Public Appointments accident and emergency departments; [187154] (2) how many patients presented at (a) GP surgeries Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Minister for the and (b) accident and emergency departments with Cabinet Office (1) which paid public appointment dental problems in each of the last three years. [187361] contracts he has (a) renewed and (b) not renewed since May 2010; and how many posts were held by (i) Dr Poulter: Information is not collected centrally on women and (ii) men; [187011] the cost to the national health service of patients presenting (2) what the titles are of the individual public at accident and emergency (A and E) departments who appointments that have been made by his Department require emergency dental treatment or on how many since May 2010; and which of those appointees were patients presented at general practitioner surgeries with women; [187072] dental problems. (3) which paid public appointment contracts No. 10 Information is available on the number of A and E Downing Street has (a) renewed and (b) not renewed attendances where the patient’s first’ treatment was since May 2010; and how many posts were held by (i) dental treatment. For the years 2010-11, 2011-12 and women and (ii) men. [187026] 2012-13 this is set out in the following table. Activity in English NHS Hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in Mr Maude: The Prime Minister’s Office is an integral the independent sector part of the Cabinet Office. First A and E treatment Number of A and E attendances

I refer my hon. Member to the answer I gave on 2010-11 3,505 5 February 2014, Official Report, column 301W. 2011-12 17,388 Figures in relation to diversity for public appointments 2012-13 14,527 within the jurisdiction of the Commission for Public Notes: 1. HES figures are available from 2007-08 onwards. Changes to the figures over Appointments for 2010-11, 2011-12 and 2012-13 can be time need to be interpreted in the context of improvements in data quality and found on the website at: coverage and changes in NHS practice. http://publicappointmentscommissioner.independent.gov.uk/ 2. Specifically in 2010-11 there were over four million records with invalid or no data in the treatment field; in 2011-12 this reduced to over one million records. Copies are also available in the Library of the House. Comparisons between, treatment data in those years are therefore unlikely to be meaningful. 3. HES is not the official source of total A and E activity, this is the NHS Re-employment England situation reports collection: www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/ae-waiting-times-and- activity/ Lilian Greenwood: To ask the Minister for the 4. However, HES permits further analysis of A and E activity as there are a range of data items by which HES can be analysed. Cabinet Office pursuant to the answer of 4 February Source: 2014, Official Report, column 216W, on Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), The Health and Social Care Information re-employment, what the total cost was of those Centre redundancies. [187208] Dental Services

Mr Hurd: In line with the practice of previous Mr Jamie Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for Administrations exact numbers and costs are not usually Health how many and what proportion of people are disclosed to protect individual privacy when numbers not registered with either an NHS dentist or a private are five or fewer. dentist in each region. [187358] 609W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 610W

Dr Poulter: 1.3 million more people have seen an Health Services: Greater London NHS dentist since May 2010 with nearly 30 million people seeing a dentist in a two year period in the NHS. Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Information is not available on numbers of patients how many healthcare assistants there were in each registered with an NHS dentist. The NHS remuneration NHS trust in London in the last five years for which system has not. included registration since the contractual figures are available; and if he will make a statement. changes of 2006. Patients do not register with an NHS [187065] dentist to receive NHS care. The closest equivalent measure to ‘registration’ is the number of patients receiving Dr Poulter: Information on the numbers of clinical NHS dental services (‘patients seen’) over a 24 month support staff employed by each national health service period. However, this is not directly comparable to organisation in London for each year during the period registration data. 2008 to 2012 has been placed in the Library. The following table provides the numbers of patients Heart Diseases: Sugar seen by an NHS dentist and the percentage of population in the 24-month period ending 30 September 2013 in Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health England, broken down by Region. what research he has commissioned on the effect of sugar consumption on heart disease. [186475] Patients seen as a percentage Patients seen of the population1 Dr Poulter: The Department has not commissioned England 29,802,414 56.1 any research specifically on the effect of sugar consumption North of England 9,222,116 61.1 on heart disease. Midlands and East 9,142,116 56.7 The Department’s National Institute for Health Research of England (NIHR) has awarded nearly £10 million over five years London 4,143,634 50.5 to the NIHR Southampton Biomedical Research Centre South of England 7,294,548 53.3 in nutrition. The centre’s research in nutrition addresses 1 The patients seen measure shows the number of patients who received NHS dental care in the previous 24 months, where their last Course of Treatment health impacts across the entire lifecourse, particularly (CoT) started within the past 24 months. An equivalent measure covering the 12 in tackling later life development of chronic diseases month period is not available. such as heart disease, obesity and diabetes. Note: Percentage of the population figures use Office for National Statistics mid-year population estimate for 2011 as these were the latest available at the time of Hospital Beds publication. These figures will be subject to revision in future reports once newer population figures are available. Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Health General Practitioners: Telephone Services how many NHS hospitals have been recorded as having general and acute bed occupancy in excess of 95 per Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for cent on any one day in each of the last 12 months. Health what estimate he has made of the number of [187355] calls made on (a) higher rate and (b) 0845 telephone numbers to GP surgeries in England in each year since Jane Ellison: Information on the number of available 2007. [187362] and occupied beds open overnight is not collected for every day of the year. A daily collection occurs during Dr Poulter: The requested information is not collected winter months to help the national health service manage centrally. winter pressures. The most recent information for the Regulations introduced in 2010 prevented general period between 4 November 2013 and 5 February 2014 practitioner practices from entering into, renewing or shows that 142 NHS hospital trusts were recorded as extending a contract for telephone services unless it was having general and acute bed occupancy in excess of satisfied that, looking at the arrangements as a whole, 95% on any one day in that period. patients would not pay more to make calls to the Information on general and acute bed occupancy for practice than they would to make calls to a geographical a whole 12 month period is only collected every quarter. number. For the four quarters from October 2012 to September Health 2013 this shows average general and acute bed occupancy of 88.1%, with 55 NHS hospital trusts having average Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for general and acute bed occupancy in excess of 95% in Health what visits Dame Carol Black has made since any one quarter. her appointment to promote the Public Health Responsibility Deal partners to (a) small and medium Hospitals: Greater London size enterprises, (b) other private companies, (c) public sector bodies and (d) third-sector organisations. Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Health [187357] how many finished admissions episodes there were in the last five years for which figures are available in each Jane Ellison: As part of her role helping the Government NHS trust in London; what the (a) mean and (b) to promote the Public Health Responsibility Deal, Dame median time waited was in days for (i) hip replacement, Carol Black visits many organisations and undertakes a (ii) hysterectomy and (iii) cataract removal procedures large number of speaking and other engagements. This in each such area; and if he will make a statement. includes the work she does as Principal of Newnham [187062] College. She is not a Department of Health employee and the Department does not keep a record of her Jane Ellison: The information has been placed in the engagements. Library. 611W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 612W

Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Health median time waited was in days for cholecystectomy how many finished admissions episodes there were at procedures in each such area; and if he will make a (a) North West London Hospitals NHS Trust and (b) statement. [187063] all other London hospitals in the last five years for which figures are available; what the (i) mean and (ii) Jane Ellison: The information requested is shown in the following tables:

Number of finished admissions episodes (FAEs)1 and mean and median time waited2 (days) for cholecystectomy procedures3 at each London hospital provider, 2008-09 to 2012-13, activity in English NHS Hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Provider/area FAEs Mean Median FAEs Mean Median FAEs Mean Median

London Strategic Health Authority 6,297 67.5 58 6,334 69.8 63 6,484 74.5 64 North West London Hospitals NHS Trust 331 56.5 56 271 73.2 75 327 79.8 77 SpireRodingHospital ——————18—— BMI—Bishops Wood — — — —————— BMI—The Blackheath Hospital — — — — — — 8 — — BMI—Chelsfield Park Hospital — — — ———20—— BMI—The Clementine Churchill Hospital — — — *————— BMI—The Kings Oak Hospital — — — * — — * — — BMI—The London Independent Hospital — — — — — — — — BMI—Shirley Oaks Hospital — — — * — — 9 34.0 34 BMI—The Sloane Hospital — — — — — — * — BMI—The Cavell Hospital — — — —————— BMI—Fitzroy — — — —————— North East London NHS Treatment 150 — — —————— North East London Treatment Centre — — — 29 — — 164 40.0 35 BartsHealthNHSTrust ————————— Royal Free London NHS Foundation Trust 215 66.1 55 222 69.7 62 306 80.2 74 North Middlesex University Hospital NHS Trust 168 79.0 64 122 71.8 64 171 116.2 117 The Hillingdon Hospitals NHS 205 44.9 42 205 49.2 47 220 50.4 42 Kingston Hospital NHS Trust 237 87.5 80 222 77.6 76 236 62.3 55 Ealing Hospital NHS Trust 189 54.3 32 187 68.0 70 130 53.9 56 Barking, Havering and Redbridge University 449 103.0 88 413 83.4 73 379 95.2 84 Hospitals NHS Trust. West Middlesex University Hospital NHS Trust 171 49.2 44 203 61.8 56 234 62.7 62 Queen Elizabeth Hospital NHS Trust 226 80.9 71 —————— BromleyHospitalsNHSTrust 34676.169—————— Whipps Cross University Hospital NHS Trust 233 62.0 51 230 57.6 54 208 79.1 73 Queen Mary’s Sidcup NHS Trust 199 26.5 27 —————— Guy’s and St Thomas’ NHS Foundation Trust 226 58.7 55 —————— Guy’s and St Thomas’ NHS Foundation Trust — — — 233 69.0 61 196 66.7 62 Lewisham Healthcare NHS Trust 158 — — 209 — — 201 — — Croydon Health Services NHS Trust 216 65.2 56 205 69.0 60 220 66.2 53 St George’s Healthcare NHS Trust 165 89.0 82 218 102.6 103 198 126.0 126 King’s College Hospital NHS Foundation Trust 272 66.2 55 303 79.3 73 259 95.7 73 The Whittington Hospital NHS Trust 154 52.1 44 145 60.7 55 178 54.4 45 Newham University Hospital NHS Trust 170 48.9 43 203 74.7 68 165 85.8 88 Barts and The London NHS Trust 232 59.0 53 277 64.9 59 284 52.9 41 Great Ormond Street Hospital for Children * — — 7 120.8 97 * — — The Royal Marsden NHS Foundation Trust 11 14.7 7 9 13.1 9 13 17.8 16 Chelsea and Westminster Hospital NHS 131 73.0 65 150 63.2 51 131 71.5 63 Foundation Trust Homerton University Hospital NHS Foundation 126 59.4 59 156 58.6 54 141 51.8 50 Trust University College London Hospitals NHS 171 64.1 44 159 79.2 61 161 71.3 57 Foundation Trust Royal Brompton and Harefield NHS Foundation *————— *—— Trust Barnet and Chase Farm Hospitals NHS Trust 386 77.1 68 365 67.6 62 331 59.8 54 Epsom and St Helier University Hospitals NHS 344 68.7 64 348 73.1 72 349 72.9 70 Trust Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust 413 39.2 37 465 62.2 62 457 71.5 68 South London Healthcare NHS Trust — — — 775 63.8 58 760 83.8 65 613W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 614W

2011-12 2012-13

Provider/area FAEs Mean Median FAEs Mean Median

London Strategic Health Authority 7,367 81.5 68 7,317 81.8 70 North West London Hospitals NHS Trust 368 111.6 132 363 86.5 93 Spire Roding Hospital 37 — — 30 21.3 21 BMI—Bishops Wood * — — * — — BMI—The Blackheath Hospital *——26—— BMI—Chelsfield Park Hospital * — — * — — BMI—The Clementine Churchill Hospital 9——46—— BMI—The Kings Oak Hospital — — — 9 — — BMI—The London Independent Hospital — — — * — — BMI—Shirley Oaks Hospital *——18—— BMI—The Sloane Hospital *————— BMI—The Cavell Hospital *——1374.872 BMI—Fitzroy * — — * — — North East London NHS Treatment —————— North East London Treatment Centre 199 33.1 32 110 28.3 24 Barts Health NHS Trust — — — 756 87.2 83 Royal Free London NHS Foundation Trust 267 66.1 58 250 73.5 64 North Middlesex University Hospital NHS 203 102.1 97 201 90.8 91 Trust The Hillingdon Hospitals NHS 264 51.5 49 264 49.9 43 Kingston Hospital NHS Trust 249 59.5 47 296 72.0 75 Ealing Hospital NHS Trust 139 65.9 61 186 67.1 67 Barking, Havering and Redbridge University 496 115.3 111 537 129.3 124 Hospitals NHS Trust. West Middlesex University Hospital NHS 220 63.2 56 198 65.4 58 Trust Queen Elizabeth Hospital NHS Trust —————— BromleyHospitalsNHSTrust—————— Whipps Cross University Hospital NHS Trust 251 73.9 60 — — — Queen Mary’s Sidcup NHS Trust —————— Guy’s and St Thomas’ NHS Foundation Trust —————— Guy’s and St Thomas’ NHS Foundation Trust 257 107.9 95 252 91.6 81 Lewisham Healthcare NHS Trust 230 — — 195 — — Croydon Health Services NHS Trust 276 72.1 63 245 83.7 75 St George’s Healthcare NHS Trust 362 102.8 80 296 71.5 61 King’s College Hospital NHS Foundation 256 111.8 94 264 153.3 119 Trust The Whittington Hospital NHS Trust 187 55.0 52 170 61.8 56 Newham University Hospital NHS Trust 226 99.6 88 — — — Barts and the London NHS Trust 287 53.4 45 — — — Great Ormond Street Hospital for Children * — — * — — The Royal Marsden NHS Foundation Trust 6 21.0 23 9 14.1 15 Chelsea and Westminster NHS Foundation 182 75.9 59 228 51.4 41 Trust Homerton University Hospital NHS 205 84.4 71 196 78.2 66 Foundation Trust University College London Hospitals NHS 139 66.5 61 165 61.4 52 Foundation Trust Royal Brompton and Harefield NHS —————— Foundation Trust Barnet and Chase Farm Hospitals NHS Trust 308 68.4 62 316 88.2 72 Epsom and St Helier University Hospitals 431 73.0 70 396 80.2 80 NHS Trust Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust 437 97.8 86 487 91.1 72 615W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 616W

2011-12 2012-13 Provider/area FAEs Mean Median FAEs Mean Median

South London Healthcare NHS Trust 857 79.2 72 783 64.6 61 1 Finished admission episodes A finished admission episode (FAE) is the first period of in-patient care under one consultant within one health care provider. FAEs are counted against the year in which the admission episode finishes. Admissions do not represent the number of in-patients, as a person may have more than one admission within the year. 2 Time waited (days) Time waited (days) statistics from Hospital Episode Statistics (HES) are not the same as published Referral to Treatment (RTT) time waited statistics. HES provides counts and time waited for all patients between decision to admit and admission to hospital within a given period. Published RTT waiting statistics measure the time waited between referral and start of treatment. 3 Main procedure The first recorded procedure or intervention in each episode, usually the most resource intensive procedure or intervention performed during the episode.Itis appropriate to use main procedure when looking at admission details, (e.g. time waited), but a more complete count of episodes with a particular procedure is obtained by looking at the main and the secondary procedures. Notes: 1. Total admissions with eligible time waited information The total number of eligible admissions from which the mean and median time waited are derived. This includes waiting list and booked admissions, but not planned admissions. A waiting list admission is one in which a patient has been admitted electively into hospital from a waiting list, having been givennodateof admission at the time a decision to admit was made. Booked admissions are those in which the patient was admitted electively having been given a date at the time it was decided to admit. Planned admissions are excluded as they are usually part of a planned sequence of clinical care determined mainly on clinical criteria, which, for example, could require a series of events, perhaps taking place every three months, six months or annually. Because of this the number of episodes used to generate the mean and median time waited is likely to be lower than the number of FAEs reported in the table. It is the case that some providers do not supply the data required to calculate a time waited on eligible episodes. 2. To protect patient confidentiality, figures between 1 and 5 have been suppressed and replaced with ″*″ (an asterisk). Where it was possible to identify numbers from the total due to a single suppressed number in a row or column, an additional number (generally the next smallest) has also been suppressed. Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care Information Centre.

Medical Records: Databases to patients about the use and protection of their personal confidential data. The household leaflet is part of a Mr Jamie Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for comprehensive range of awareness raising activities, Health what systems are in place to monitor the which also includes: leaflets and posters in every general proportion of leaflets advertising the Care.Data practice in England; articles in newspapers; information scheme that are successfully delivered. [186539] on the NHS Choices website and via social media; as Dr Poulter: NHS England is in the process of surveying well as information cascaded via 350,000 patient groups a sample of households to evaluate the effectiveness of and charities. the leaflet ’Better information means better care’, which Northern Ireland includes asking whether they recall receiving the leaflet and how much of it they read. This will ensure that Dr Alasdair McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State lessons are learnt to incorporate in future national for Health what assets his Department has sold in mailings. Northern Ireland in each of the last five years; and Royal Mail was contracted to deliver the leaflet to what the value of each such sale was. [186573] every household in England during January 2014. Dr Poulter: The Department has not sold any assets Mr Jamie Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for in Northern Ireland over the last five years. Health how many people have opted out of the Nurses: Greater London care.data scheme; and how many people he expects to opt-out overall. [186662] Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Dr Poulter: There are currently no estimates relating how many (a) district nurses, (b) health visitors, (c) to objection rates as no data extractions have taken community psychiatric nurses, (d) community matrons place. and (e) community learning disabilities nurses were employed by the NHS in each Clinical Commissioning Mr Jamie Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for Group area in London in (i) the latest period for which Health what steps he is taking to ensure all patients are figures are available and (ii) the period 12 months prior aware of changes to the use of their data. [186674] to this; and if he will make a statement. [187061] Dr Poulter: A leaflet entitled ‘Better information Dr Poulter: The information is not collected in the means better care’ has been delivered to households in format requested. The following table provides the number England. The leaflet explains how information from of qualified nursing, midwifery and health visiting staff medical records is used to improve the quality of care in the previous London Strategic Health Authority and services for all and also explains the choices available (SHA) area by organisation.

National health service hospital and community health services provisional monthly statistics: Qualified nursing, midwifery and health visiting staff in the London Strategic Health Authority area1 by organisation and each specified level and area of work as at 31 October each specified year Full-time equivalent All qualified Community nursing, midwifery Community Learning and health visiting Of which: Community Psychiatric Disabilities staff District Nurses Health Visitors Matrons Nurses Nurses Organisation name 2012 2013 2012 2013 2012 2013 2012 2013 2012 2013 2012 2013

London Strategic Health 52,321 52,871 1,034 952 1,242 1,309 157 150 1,988 1,909 135 146 Authority area1 617W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 618W

National health service hospital and community health services provisional monthly statistics: Qualified nursing, midwifery and health visiting staff in the London Strategic Health Authority area1 by organisation and each specified level and area of work as at 31 October each specified year Full-time equivalent All qualified Community nursing, midwifery Community Learning and health visiting Of which: Community Psychiatric Disabilities staff District Nurses Health Visitors Matrons Nurses Nurses Organisation name 2012 2013 2012 2013 2012 2013 2012 2013 2012 2013 2012 2013

Barking and Dagenham PCT 2 ------Barking, Havering and 1,8721,850------Redbridge University Hospitals NHS Trust Barnet and Chase Farm 1,3631,322------Hospitals NHS Trust Barney Enfield and Haringey 794 774 18 63 42 52 1 - 193 189 4 5 Mental Health NHS Trust Baits Health NHS Trust 4,456 4,326 25 25 41 41 1 1 - - 5 3 Bexley Care Trust 7 ------Brent Teaching PCT 10 ------Bromley Healthcare 197 210 42 40 47 50 7 6 - - 6 7 BromleyPCT 10-3-1------Camden and Islington NHS 405422------16417665 Foundation Trust Central and North West 1,596 1,915 7 33 66 122 11 17 2 64 5 23 London NHS Foundation Trust Central London Community 968 940 52 42 139 142 17 21 1 - 25 17 Healthcare NHS Trust Chelsea and Westminster 1,0911,071--11------Hospital NHS Foundation Trust City and Hackney Teaching 16-1------PCT Croydon Health Services NHS 912 978 23 20 52 48 8 7 - - 7 8 Trust Ealing Hospital NHS Trust 1,076 1,062 107 57 94 84 9 10 1121 EalingPCT 11-5-2------East London NHS Foundation 1,056 1,066 50 51 43 46 7 5 182 173 - - Trust Epsom and St Helier University 1,3341,373------Hospitals NHS Trust Great Ormond Street Hospital 1,2011,161------For Children NHS Foundation Trust Greenwich Teaching PCT 5 - 1 ------Guy’s and St Thomas’ NHS 3,730 3,874 40 31 101 116 13 10 - - 3 9 Foundation Trust Hammersmith and Fulham 12-0---1----- PCT HaveringPCT 2 ------Hillingdon Hospitals NHS 744732------Foundation Trust Hillingdon PCT 7 - 1 ------1- Homerton University Hospital 1,029 1,067 10 5 49 47 2 - 2 2 - 1 NHS Foundation Trust Hounslow and Richmond - 249 - 68 - 39 - 14 - - - 4 Community Healthcare NHS Trust Hounslow PCT 2 - 1 ------Imperial College Healthcare 3,1523,101--21------NHS Trust IslingtonPCT 26-6---6----- Kensington and Chelsea PCT 3 ------King’s College Hospital NHS 2,4773,502--11------Foundation Trust Kingston Hospital NHS -828------Foundation Trust KingstonHospitalNHSTrust764------Lambeth PCT 5 ------Lewisham and Greenwich NHS -1,888-58-37-15---- Trust Lewisham Healthcare NHS 960-53-16-9----- Trust LewishamPCT 89-12-20-10----- 619W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 620W

National health service hospital and community health services provisional monthly statistics: Qualified nursing, midwifery and health visiting staff in the London Strategic Health Authority area1 by organisation and each specified level and area of work as at 31 October each specified year Full-time equivalent All qualified Community nursing, midwifery Community Learning and health visiting Of which: Community Psychiatric Disabilities staff District Nurses Health Visitors Matrons Nurses Nurses Organisation name 2012 2013 2012 2013 2012 2013 2012 2013 2012 2013 2012 2013

London Strategic Health 2 ------Authority Moorfields Eye Hospital NHS 348349------Foundation Trust NHS Barnet CCG - 4 ------1-- NHSBexleyCCG - 5-5------NHSBrentCCG -10------NHSBromleyCCG - 6-6------NHS Central London - 4------(Westminster) CCG NHS City and Hackney CCG - 1 ------NHSCroydonCCG - 3-3------NHSEalingCCG - 4---1------NHS Greenwich CCG - 6 - 6 ------NHSHarrowCCG - 1------NHS Hillingdon CCG - 6 ------NHSKingstonCCG - 1------NHS Lambeth CCG - 1 - 1 ------NHSLewishamCCG - 4-3------NHSMertonCCG - 0-0------NHSRedbridgeCCG - 3------NHS Richmond CCG - 3 - 2 ------NHS Southwark CCG - 1 - 1 ------NHSSuttonCCG - 1-1------NHS Wandsworth CCG - 5 - 3 ------North East London NHS 1,631 1,689 236 184 176 176 29 26 299 278 20 19 Foundation Trust North Middlesex University 689806------Hospital NHS Trust North West London Hospitals 1,5581,5971142 ------NHS Trust Oxleas NHS Foundation Trust 1,010 993 66 67 77 72 - - 209 201 11 11 RedbridgePCT 16------Richmond and Twickenham 277 - 83 - 43 - 12 - - - 4 - PCT Royal Brompton and Harefield 1,0881,140------NHS Foundation Trust Royal Free London NHS 1,4301,367------Foundation Trust Royal Marsden NHS 1,001 1,016 16 13 55 57 3 3 - - 1 2 Foundation Trust Royal National Orthopaedic 360373------Hospital NHS Trust South London and Maudsley 1,4721,336------59251366 NHS Foundation Trust South London Healthcare NHS 1,76050-1------Trust South West London and St 599563------20618877 George’s Mental Health NHS Trust St George’s Healthcare NHS 2,368 2,490 39 38 60 61 10 10 - - 4 4 Trust Tavistock and Portman NHS 1520------1-11 Foundation Trust University College London 2,2642,406------Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust WalthamForestPCT 3 ------Wandsworth PCT 28 - 10 - 1 ------West London Mental Health 1,0791,000------127115-- NHS Trust West Middlesex University 618631------Hospital NHS Trust WestminsterPCT 6 ------621W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 622W

National health service hospital and community health services provisional monthly statistics: Qualified nursing, midwifery and health visiting staff in the London Strategic Health Authority area1 by organisation and each specified level and area of work as at 31 October each specified year Full-time equivalent All qualified Community nursing, midwifery Community Learning and health visiting Of which: Community Psychiatric Disabilities staff District Nurses Health Visitors Matrons Nurses Nurses Organisation name 2012 2013 2012 2013 2012 2013 2012 2013 2012 2013 2012 2013

Whittington Hospital NHS 1,162 1,161 114 112 86 90 1 3 10 8 12 9 Trust Your Healthcare 154 147 12 13 23 21 2 2 - - 6 6 1 The information in the table is from the Health and Social Care Information Centre (HSCIC) Provisional Monthly Workforce Statistics. Former London SHA area figures for October 2013 are an aggregate of the Health Education North Central and East London, Health Education North West London, and Health Education South London regions. These statistics relate to the contracted positions within English NHS organisations and may include those where the person assigned to the position is temporarily absent, for example on maternity leave. Monthly data: As from 21 July 2010 the HSCIC has published provisional monthly NHS workforce data. As expected with provisional statistics, some figures may be revised from month to month as issues are uncovered and resolved. The monthly workforce data is not-directly comparable with the annual workforce census; it only includes those staff on the Electronic Staff Record (ESR) (ie it does not include Primary care staff or Bank staff). There are also new methods of presenting data (headcount methodology is different and there is now a role count). This information is available from September 2009 onwards at the following website: www.hscic.gov.uk Note: A few NHS organisations, such as Barking and Dagenham PCT, existed within the ESR database with small numbers of staff as a result of the impact of Transforming Community Services and the resultant system mergers and demergers which were still on-going at the time of the 2012 census.

Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Dr Poulter: Information showing the number of qualified how many registered nurses there were in each NHS nursing, midwifery and health visiting staff employed trust in London in the last five years for which figures by each NHS organisation in London in each year are available; and if he will make a statement. [187064] during the period 2008 to 2012 is shown in the following table:

NHS hospital and community health services: Qualified nursing, midwifery and health visiting staff in the London strategic health authority area by organisation as at 30 September each specified year Full-time equivalent Organisation Name 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012

London strategic health authority area total 49,047 50,322 51,839 51,785 51,886

Barking and Dagenham Primary Care Trust (PCT) 185 191 18 15 3 Barking, Havering and Redbridge University Hospitals NHS Trust 1,590 1,630 1,638 1,866 1,870 Barnet and Chase Farm Hospitals NHS Trust 1,310 1,302 1,301 1,313 1,357 Barnet PCT 302 308 278 279 0 Barnet, Enfield and Haringey Mental Health NHS Trust 721 712 652 824 798 Barts and the London NHS Trust 2,161 2,251 2,435 2,531 0 BartsHealthNHSTrust 00004,488 Bexley Care Trust 202 200 7 7 7 Brent Teaching PCT 197 206 211 9 10 Bromley Healthcare 0000197 BromleyHospitalsNHSTrust 6980000 Bromley PCT 236 240 236 212 12 Camden and Islington NHS Foundation Trust 537 546 542 492 415 Camden PCT 220 215 211 228 0 Central and North West London NHS Foundation Trust 1,102 1,105 1,286 1,189 1,591 Central London Community Healthcare NHS Trust 0 0 0 687 957 Chelsea and Westminster Hospital NHS Foundation Trust 959 1,005 1,050 1,040 1,076 City and Hackney Teaching PCT 241 261 261 26 16 Croydon Health Services NHS Trust 734 742 941 920 884 Croydon PCT 249 261 30 0 0 Ealing Hospital NHS Trust 517 537 524 1,059 1,071 Ealing PCT 263 254 242 10 11 East London NHS Foundation Trust 823 892 888 1,147 1,040 Enfield PCT 205 204 196 1 0 Epsom and St Helier University Hospitals NHS Trust 1,257 1,265 1,268 1,322 1,317 Great Ormond Street Hospital For Children NHS Foundation Trust 1,092 1,119 1,092 1,061 1,137 Greenwich Teaching PCT 233 228 221 5 5 Guy’s and St Thomas’ NHS Foundation Trust 2,729 2,932 3,026 3,543 3,663 Hammersmith and Fulham PCT 224 210 37 15 12 Haringey Teaching PCT 122 129 144 10 0 Harrow PCT 126 150 146 0 0 Havering PCT 221 555 528 449 2 623W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 624W

NHS hospital and community health services: Qualified nursing, midwifery and health visiting staff in the London strategic health authority area by organisation as at 30 September each specified year Full-time equivalent Organisation Name 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012

Hillingdon Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust 690 730 746 753 720 Hillingdon PCT 199 210 231 233 7 Homerton University Hospital NHS Foundation Trust 683 698 746 1,012 1,018 Hounslow PCT 133 132 2 2 2 Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust 3,045 3,051 3,206 3,229 3,165 Islington PCT 180 218 222 5 25 Kensington and Chelsea PCT 181 200 700 3 3 King’s College Hospital NHS Foundation Trust 1,856 1,926 2,154 2,263 2,410 Kingston Hospital NHS Trust 780 763 764 729 754 Kingston PCT 142 136 2 0 0 Lambeth PCT 263 272 250 4 5 Lewisham Healthcare NHS Trust 752 737 802 955 950 Lewisham PCT 260 257 184 94 86 London Strategic Health Authority 23212 Moorfields Eye Hospital NHS Foundation Trust 300 304 320 350 348 Newham PCT 269 287 281 0 0 Newham University Hospital NHS Trust 698 713 750 753 0 North East London NHS Foundation Trust 519 520 711 714 1,617 North Middlesex University Hospital NHS Trust 564 609 720 730 694 North West London Hospitals NHS Trust 1,292 1,308 1,501 1,489 1,556 Oxleas NHS Foundation Trust 601 578 794 1,009 1,016 Queen Elizabeth Hospital NHS Trust 704 0000 Queen Mary’s Sidcup NHS Trust 460 0000 Redbridge PCT 199 105 84 85 15 Richmond and Twickenham PCT 153 157 292 269 283 Royal Brompton and Harefield NHS Foundation Trust 915 965 1,027 1,079 1,079 Royal Free London IMHS Foundation Trust 1,477 1,527 1,547 1,560 1,416 Royal Marsden NHS Foundation Trust. 583 683 735 743 994 Royal National Orthopaedic Hospital NHS Trust 322 325 338 351 350 South London and Maudsley NHS Foundation Trust 1,670 1,635 1,530 1,472 1,472 South London Healthcare NHS Trust 0 1,866 1,809 1,809 1,745 South West London and St George’s Mental Health NHS Trust 738 729 693 671 599 Southwark PCT 247 229 210 0 0 St George’s Healthcare NHS Trust 1,693 1,772 2,287 2,319 2,329 Sutton and Merton PCT 311 277 258 239 0 Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust 6 10 14 14 15 Tower Hamlets PCT 337 327 304 0 0 University College London Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust 1,888 1,977 2,123 2,202 2,231 Waltham Forest PCT 204 9 10 4 3 Wandsworth PCT 351 366 15 33 28 West London Mental Health NHS Trust. 1,291 1,266 1,290 1,199 1,080 West Middlesex University Hospital NHS Trust 660 682 698 638 612 Westminster PCT 279 290 8 3 6 Whipps Cross University Hospital NHS Trust 998 1,077 1,141 1,162 0 Whittington Hospital NHS Trust 698 753 783 1,199 1,154 Your Healthcare 0 0 141 148 156 Data Quality: The Health and Social Care Information Centre seeks to minimise inaccuracies and the effect of missing and invalid data but responsibility for data accuracy lies with the organisations providing the data. Methods are continually being updated to improve data quality where changes impact on figures already published. This is assessed but unless it is significant at national level figures are not changed. Impact at detailed or local level is footnoted in relevant analyses. Notes: 1. Full time equivalent figures are rounded to the nearest whole number. 2. These statistics relate to the contracted positions within English NHS organisations and may include those where the person assigned to the position is temporarily absent, for example on maternity leave. 3. As a consequence of TCS (Transforming Community Services) the former provider arm of some PCTs may have transferred into local acute trusts, this canbe seen in the large decrease in staff in Barnet PCT, and large increase in staff numbers at Barts NHS Trust for example. Source: Health and Social Care Information Centre Non-Medical Workforce Census

Obesity: Sugar Jane Ellison: The Scientific Advisory Committee on Nutrition, a committee of experts who advise the Government on nutrition issues, is currently reviewing the evidence on sugar as part of its Carbohydrates and Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Health review. This will include evaluating the scientific what assessment he has made of the effect of sugar on literature on sugar and obesity. We know that people obesity levels. [186476] 625W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 626W are eating more sugar than the Government recommends. To inform the evidence base for future guidance, There is broad consensus that obesity is the result of a AFFIRM (Awareness of Fetal Movements and Focussing very large number of factors, which include the built Interventions Reduce Fetal Mortality), a four-year research environment, inactivity and consuming too many calories study is conducting into whether promoting awareness than the body needs (irrespective of whether these come of fetal movements can help reduce stillbirths. The from sugar or fat). study is expected to report in 2017. Parental Leave The aim of Public Health England’s Start4Life campaign is to increase the number of healthy babies and children Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for under five through the adoption of healthy behaviours. Health what discussions he has had with the Secretary Since May 2012, the campaign has delivered messages of State for Business, Innovation and Skills on the to pregnant women about the healthy behaviours that mandatory introduction of a bereavement policy on all they should adopt in pregnancy: quitting smoking, businesses available to a parent whose child had died. cutting down on alcohol, healthy eating, physical activity [187002] and taking folic acid and vitamin D. These have been primarily delivered through healthcare settings such as Norman Lamb: There have been no discussions with via leaflets and posters in general practitioners’ surgeries the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and and through supplying resources to midwives. There Skills, my right hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham was also a programme of paid for communications (Vince Cable), on the mandatory introduction of a from November 2012 to March 2013, which included bereavement policy on all businesses, available to a paid search on internet search engines, advertising on parent whose child has died. Baby TV and a long-term magazine partnership with Pregnancy Hearst publishing. At the end of January 2014, Start4Life merged with Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for the NHS Information Service for Parents, a digital Health (1) if he will issue guidance to (a) midwives and service for parent-to-be and new parents which sends (b) GPs on reduced fetal movements during the third both mums and dads regular free emails, videos and trimester of pregnancy to ensure that (i) appropriate SMS messages with advice and information from a measures are taken by healthcare professions, (ii) trust source about pregnancy and the first eighteen expectant mothers receive the best advice on months with a baby, to form one service for the provision precautions and (iii) best practice is shared throughout of information and advice to parents-to-be, which should the health service; [186999] enable us to make this key health information even (2) what steps he is taking to improve education on more widely known among the target audience. pregnancy and maternity for the prevention or There is no compelling evidence that the introduction avoidance of (a) stillbirths, (b) children born with of a universal 30-week pregnancy scan would be an fetal alcohol syndrome and (c) infant deaths due to effective method of identifying placenta problems leading pregnant women (i) smoking, (ii) having a high body to stillbirth. Previous studies have not shown an mass index, (iii) drinking six or more units of alcohol improvement in predicting or preventing stillbirths and at one time and (iii) bad nutrition; and if he will make neonatal deaths using universal scans in all women. a statement; [187000] There is currently a large research study (>4,000 women) (3) what recent assessment he has made of the effects at the University of Cambridge funded through the of introducing a universal 30 week pregnancy scan on National Institute for Health Research which is assessing identifying placenta complications leading to the benefit of serial growth scans in low risk women to stillbirths; and if he will make a statement; [187001] identify placental problems such as growth restriction (4) what assessment he has made of the five point and improve stillbirth rate. pregnancy plan developed by Tommy’s; what recent The Secretary of State for Health, my right hon. assessment he has made of the benefits of a national Friend the Member for South West Surrey (Mr Hunt), campaign on pregnancy health to reduce rates of has not made an assessment of Tommy’s five point perinatal mortality; and if he will make a statement. pregnancy plan. [187201] For the best health outcomes, it is important women Dr Poulter: The Department is working with partners, engage with maternity services at an early stage. Seeing including NHS England, Public Health England, the a midwife early in pregnancy helps women stay healthy Royal College of Midwives and the Royal College of and get the right care and advice about maintaining a General Practitioners, to agree and disseminate public healthy lifestyle during and after pregnancy. This will health messages for pregnant women and health care also help ensure that women have their personal needs professionals to raise awareness of the known risk assessed appropriately through an individualised plan factors for stillbirth and the actions that can be taken to of care. reduce those risks. Reduced fetal movement will form Between May 2010 and October 2013, midwives in part of this. the national health service increased by over 1,500 and The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists there are also over 5,000 midwives in training who will has published evidence-based guidance for health qualify in the next three years. professionals and advice for pregnant women on reduced Re-employment fetal movements. This information is available on their website at: Lilian Greenwood: To ask the Secretary of State for www.rcog.org.uk/files/rcog-corp/ Health pursuant to the answer of 4 February 2014, Your%20Baby’s%20Movements%20in%20Pregnancy_0.pdf Official Report, column 160W, on re-employment, what www.rcog.org.uk/files/rcog-corp/GTG57RFM25022011.pdf the total cost was of that redundancy. [187209] 627W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 628W

Dr Poulter: As the number of individuals involved is standards, policies and quality measures, the quality of five or fewer the Department cannot disclose exact spinal injury services in the NHS should continually amounts as to do so may breach confidentiality. improve.

Spinal Injuries Streptococcus Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Health what the reason was for his Department’s (1) what steps he is taking to ensure that health decision not to introduce Enriched Culture Medium professionals with expertise in spinal cord injury are testing for Group B Strep on 1 January 2014. despite included in multidisciplinary teams for continuing Ministers’ previous commitment to do this; and who health care; [186522] took that decision. [187359] (2) what steps he is taking to ensure that spinal cord injured people have access to NHS continuing health Dr Poulter: The chief medical officer requested the care and that the ruling on the case of Pamela former Health Protection Agency (HPA) to make Coughlan 1999 is adhered to. [186675] recommendations for the introduction of a more accurate test for group B streptococcus (GBS) called enriched Norman Lamb: Individuals who are assessed as having culture medium (ECM), and make it available in its a ‘primary health need’ as set out in the ‘National regional laboratories when there was a clinical indication Framework for NHS Continuing Healthcare and NHS- for testing. funded Nursing Care’ will be eligible for NHS Continuing In response to this, Public Health England (PHE, Healthcare. Eligibility is based on an individual’s assessed formerly the HPA) undertook a piece of work with needs—it is not condition specific or based on their clinical organisations, including the Royal College of diagnosis. However, the assessment does require a clear, Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, to determine whether reasoned decision, based on evidence of needs from a there are any circumstances in which the ECM test comprehensive assessment. The assessment should look could be applied within the current standard of care. at the totality of an individual’s needs and draw on those who have direct knowledge of the individual and This work by PHE concluded in December 2013 that their needs. It should also make use of existing specialist there are no clinical indications for testing women for assessments, and should make referrals for other specialist GBS using ECM methods as recommended within current assessments whenever that is appropriate. guidance from the key professional bodies, and therefore no indications which should prompt the offer of an While as a minimum requirement a multidisciplinary ECM test. team can comprise two professionals from different The UK National Screening Committee also health care professions, the National Framework makes recommended in 2012 that a programme of universal it clear that the multidisciplinary team should usually screening of pregnant women at 35 weeks for GBS include both health and social care professionals, who should not be established in the United Kingdom. are knowledgeable about the individual’s health and social care needs. Sugar The Decision Support Tool for NHS Continuing Healthcare supports practitioners in identifying the Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health individual’s needs, which, combined with the practitioners what proportion of daily calorie intake was provided skills, knowledge and professional judgment, should by added sugar for a (a) male child, (b) female child, enable them to apply the primary health need test in (c) male adult and (d) female adult in each of the last practice, in a way that is consistent with the limits on five years. [186477] what can lawfully be provided by a local authority, in accordance with the Coughlan judgment. Jane Ellison: Data on added sugar intakes (including sugar from fruit juice and honey) are collected in the Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Health National Diet and Nutrition Survey (NDNS). The most what recent assessment he has made of the process for recent data available are from 2008-09 to 2010-11. These monitoring the level of care that individuals with severe results can be compared with data from earlier surveys spinal cord injuries are receiving from their immediate carried out in 2000-01 for adults, 1994-95 for older provider. [186523] adults and 1997 for children. The average percentage of energy intake from added sugar for adults and children Norman Lamb: As with all service contracts, in the recent and earlier NDNS are shown in tables 1 commissioners are responsible for monitoring quality, and 2. access and patient experience within the context of Table 1: Mean percentage of food energy intake from added sugar: Males provider performance. 2008-09 to From 1 April 2013, NHS England became responsible Age 2010-111 2000-012 19972 1994-952 for commissioning spinal cord injury services provided 4-10 years 14.4 3— 17.2 3— by the specialised centres in England. By moving from a 11-18 years 15.6 3— 16.4 3— local to a national system, it is intended that such 19-64 years 12.8 13.5 3— 3— specialised services are consistently high-quality, 65+ years 11.8 3— 3— 13.0 equitable and effective. National health service area teams around the country lead on the contract and Table 2: Mean percentage of food energy intake from added sugar: Females 2008-09 to performance management of providers in their area for 1 2 1 2 all specialised services for all patients in England. By Age 2010-11 2000-01 1997 1994-95 using a single national set of service specifications, 4-10 years 14.7 3— 17.1 3— 629W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 630W

Table 2: Mean percentage of food energy intake from added sugar: Females Dr Poulter: The Department of Health is committed 2008-09 to to giving due consideration of the UN convention on 1 2 1 2 Age 2010-11 2000-01 1997 1994-95 the rights of the child (UNCRC) during the policy-making 11-18 15.0 3— 15.8 3— process. The Department of Health consults with a years range of expert groups to ensure the best interests of 19-64 11.8 12.0 3— 3— children are represented within our work. For example, years in October 2013, the Secretary of State for Health, my 3 3 65+ years 11.1 — — 11.3 right hon. Friend the Member for South West Surrey 1 Bates B, Lennox A, Prentice A, Bates C, Swan G (2012) National Diet and Nutrition Survey: Headline results from Years 1, 2 and 3 (combined) of the (Mr Hunt), received a report from the Children and Rolling Programme (2008-09 to 2010-11). Young People’s Health Outcomes Forum on the issues 2 Published in Bates B, Lennox A, Bates C, Swan G (2011) National Diet and raised in the report by Robert Francis QC as they relate Nutrition Survey: Headline results from Years 1 and 2 (combined) of the Rolling Programme (2008-09 to 2009-10). to children and young people. Their report was informed 3 No data available in this year. by the views of children and young people, including those gathered by on their behalf the National Children’s Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Bureau, one of the Department’s strategic partners. if he will publish a list of meetings he has attended in The United Kingdom Government is due to report to which the issue of sugar consumption was discussed in the UN Committee responsible for the UNCRC shortly. the last 12 months. [186500] The Department for Education is co-ordinating the response from other Government Departments, including Jane Ellison: The Secretary of State for Health, my the work that the Department of Health has undertaken. right hon. Friend the Member for South West Surrey Once the Government has submitted its response to the (Mr Hunt), meets with public health stakeholders, food UN Committee a copy of the response will be placed in and drinks companies on a regular basis. A variety of the Library. topics around diet and calorie reduction, including Young People: Crimes of Violence sugar consumption, are discussed. Details of all ministerial meetings with external parties Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for are published quarterly in arrears on the Department’s Health (1) what recent discussions his Department has website. The latest publication can be found on the had with the Home Department on youth violence; Department’s website at: [187212] www.gov.uk/government/publications/ministerial-gifts- (2) which Minister in his Department is a member of hospitality-travel-and-external-meetings-2012-to- the inter-ministerial group on gang culture; and on 2013?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter what dates that Minister has attended meetings of the My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State recently group. [187335] met with Professor Graham MacGregor, Chairman of ‘Action on Sugar’, the right hon. Member for Leicester Jane Ellison: Ending gang and youth violence is a East (Keith Vaz), and others to discuss sugar consumption. Government priority to which the Department contributes. The Ending Youth and Gang Violence Inter-ministerial Group falls within the portfolio of the Public Health UN Convention on the Rights of the Child Minister who attended the IMG meetings held on 21 January, 20 June and 17 October 2013 at the Home Paul Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for Office. My noble Friend, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary Health with reference to the Government’s of State, Earl Howe, attended the most recent meeting commitment to give due consideration to the UN on 4 February on my behalf. Convention on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC) Ministers and officials in the Department have met when making new policy and legislation, if he will with the Home Office as part of the process of policy place in the Library all assessments of how new policy development and delivery. My office is arranging a and legislation from his Department since January meeting with the Minister for Crime Prevention, my 2013 has given due consideration to the UNCRC. hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Norman Baker), in [186587] April to discuss youth violence.

ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 11 February 2014

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 703 DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 689 Child Abuse ...... 703 Cheshire East: Business Growth...... 693 Digital Working ...... 709 City Deals ...... 690 Domestic Homicide ...... 707 Colombia ...... 691 Foreign Offenders (Removal) ...... 708 Electoral Register...... 693 Law of Contempt...... 710 Entrepreneurship ...... 689 Serious Fraud Office (Overseas Co-operation)...... 710 Topical Questions ...... 695 Shared Legal Service...... 705 Stolen Assets (Repatriation)...... 705 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Tuesday 11 February 2014

Col. No. Col. No. ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE ...... 44WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 44WS LGBCE Supplementary Estimate 2013-14 ...... 44WS Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill ...... 44WS ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 43WS Elexon Ltd (Contingent Liability)...... 43WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 43WS HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 44WS Hong Kong (Sino/British Joint Declaration)...... 43WS IPSA Supplementary Estimate 2013-14...... 44WS PETITION

Tuesday 11 February 2014

Col. No. Col. No. HEALTH...... 5P Scunthorpe Hospital Car Parking Charges...... 5P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Tuesday 11 February 2014

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 528W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— Children: Abuse ...... 528W continued Harassment: Prosecutions...... 528W Certification Quality Marks: Iron and Steel...... 558W Procurement...... 529W Community Relations: Hinduism...... 559W Stalking: Prosecutions...... 531W Floods: Insurance ...... 559W UN Convention on the Rights of the Child ...... 531W Housing: Floods ...... 560W Property Development: Floods ...... 560W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 545W Public Appointments ...... 561W Criminal Investigation ...... 545W Roads: Lighting ...... 561W Degrees ...... 545W Equal Pay...... 546W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 605W Northern Ireland...... 546W Betting Shops...... 605W Nuclear Engineering ...... 546W Buildings...... 605W Post Offices ...... 547W Local Broadcasting ...... 605W Science ...... 547W Northern Ireland...... 606W Students: Finance ...... 548W Tourism: Northern Ireland...... 606W Students: Loans ...... 548W UN Convention on the Rights of the Child ...... 606W UN Convention on the Rights of the Child ...... 548W CABINET OFFICE...... 607W DEFENCE...... 549W Criminal Investigation ...... 607W Apache Helicopters...... 549W Public Appointments ...... 607W Armed Forces: Housing ...... 549W Re-employment...... 607W Armed Forces: Location ...... 549W Cybercrime ...... 550W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 558W Defence...... 550W Bromley London Borough Council (Crystal Defence Equipment and Support...... 550W Palace) Act 1990 ...... 558W Defence: Procurement...... 550W Col. No. Col. No. DEFENCE—continued FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE— Pay...... 551W continued Redundancy...... 552W UN Convention on the Rights of the Child ...... 539W

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 587W HEALTH...... 608W City Deals ...... 588W Abortion ...... 608W Colombia ...... 589W Accident and Emergency Departments: Dental Decentralisation...... 587W Services ...... 608W Enfranchisement: 16-year-olds...... 588W Dental Services ...... 608W Public Appointments ...... 588W General Practitioners: Telephone Services...... 609W UN Convention on the Rights of the Child ...... 589W Health...... 609W Health Services: Greater London...... 610W EDUCATION...... 540W Heart Diseases: Sugar ...... 610W Al-Madinah School ...... 540W Hospital Beds...... 610W Children: Protection...... 541W Hospitals: Greater London ...... 610W Custody...... 541W Medical Records: Databases ...... 615W Families: Disadvantaged ...... 541W Northern Ireland...... 616W Foster Care ...... 541W Nurses: Greater London ...... 616W ICT: Education ...... 542W Obesity: Sugar...... 623W Military Bases...... 542W Parental Leave...... 625W Northern Ireland...... 543W Pregnancy ...... 625W Pupils: Tagging ...... 543W Re-employment...... 626W Schools: Discipline...... 543W Spinal Injuries...... 627W Staff ...... 543W Streptococcus...... 628W Students: Finance ...... 544W Sugar ...... 628W Teachers: Training...... 544W UN Convention on the Rights of the Child ...... 629W Young People: Crimes of Violence ...... 630W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 589W Eggborough Power Station ...... 589W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 561W Energy...... 590W Alcoholic Drinks: Crime...... 561W Energy: Prices ...... 595W Alcoholic Drinks: Prices ...... 561W Flood Control...... 595W Animal Experiments ...... 562W Fracking...... 595W Antisocial Behaviour...... 562W Staff ...... 597W Asylum: Advisory Services...... 562W Wind Power ...... 597W Asylum: Syria ...... 562W Borders: Personal Records ...... 563W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Community Relations ...... 563W AFFAIRS...... 573W Council of Europe Convention On Preventing and Dogs: Imports...... 573W Combating Violence Against Women and Dredging: West Sussex ...... 574W Domestic Violenc...... 564W Environment Protection...... 574W Criminal Investigation ...... 564W Fisheries: Morecambe Bay...... 575W Drugs: Misuse...... 564W Floods: Chatham ...... 575W Entry Clearances...... 565W Floods: Health Hazards...... 575W Entry Clearances: China ...... 565W Fuels: Waste...... 576W Firearms: Licensing ...... 565W Game ...... 576W Human Trafficking ...... 566W Marine Protected Areas ...... 576W Illegal Immigrants...... 566W Pay...... 576W Immigrants: Detainees ...... 566W Plastic Bags: Recycling...... 577W Immigration...... 567W Royal Botanic Gardens Kew ...... 577W Licensing Laws...... 567W Waste: Exports...... 578W Misuse of Drugs Ministerial Group...... 568W Offenders: EU Nationals...... 568W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 532W Passports...... 569W British Nationals Abroad: Capital Punishment...... 532W Pay...... 570W Buildings...... 532W Police and Crime Commissioners...... 571W Council of Europe ...... 533W Prisoners: Foreign nationals...... 571W Criminal Investigation ...... 533W Procurement...... 571W Democratic Republic of Congo ...... 534W Property...... 572W Egypt ...... 534W Public Appointments ...... 572W Equal Pay...... 534W Social Networking ...... 573W Hezbollah ...... 535W Speed Limits: Rural Areas ...... 573W Housing ...... 535W Vetting: Taxis ...... 573W Israel...... 535W Libya...... 536W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 598W Montenegro ...... 536W UN Convention on the Rights of the Child ...... 598W Northern Ireland...... 537W Philippines ...... 537W JUSTICE...... 599W Politics and Government: Females ...... 538W Contempt of Court...... 599W South Sudan ...... 538W Dangerous Driving ...... 599W Syria...... 539W Driving under Influence: Drugs ...... 599W Ukraine...... 539W Hezbollah ...... 600W Col. No. Col. No. JUSTICE—continued TREASURY—continued Homicide: Children...... 600W Pay Television ...... 554W Northern Ireland...... 601W Productivity ...... 555W Oakwood Prison ...... 601W Revenue and Customs...... 555W Prison Service: Staff ...... 602W Tax Allowances: Married People...... 555W Prisoners: Foreign Nationals...... 602W Taxation: Environment Protection ...... 556W Prisoners: Self-harm...... 603W Taxation: Self-assessment...... 557W Prisons: Police...... 603W UN Convention on the Rights of the Child ...... 557W Prisons: Wrexham ...... 603W Welfare Tax Credits...... 557W Probation ...... 604W Victim Support Schemes ...... 604W WALES...... 598W Wrexham-Bidston Railway Line ...... 598W TRANSPORT ...... 525W Cycling: Safety...... 525W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 578W Driving: Licensing...... 525W Equality ...... 578W Government Departments: Unmanned Air Vehicles...... 525W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 579W Motorcycles: Safety...... 526W Atos Healthcare ...... 579W Parking ...... 526W Children: Poverty ...... 579W Ports: EU Action ...... 526W Crisis Loans ...... 580W Railways: Dawlish...... 527W Employment and Support Allowance ...... 581W UN Convention on the Rights of the Child ...... 527W Employment: Sex Establishments...... 583W Financial Services ...... 584W TREASURY ...... 552W Housing Benefit: Social Rented Housing ...... 584W Criminal Investigation ...... 552W Jobseeker’s Allowance: Disqualification...... 585W Fracking...... 553W Service Charges...... 585W Free Schools...... 553W Social Security Benefits: Medical Examinations..... 585W High Speed 2 Railway Line ...... 553W UN Convention on the Rights of the Child ...... 586W Minimum Wage ...... 553W Warm Home Discount Scheme: Isle of Wight...... 586W Non-domestic Rates: Arts...... 554W Work Programme...... 586W Pay...... 554W Working Mothers...... 587W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. 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not later than Tuesday 18 February 2014

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CONTENTS

Tuesday 11 February 2014

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 689] [see index inside back page] Deputy Prime Minister Attorney-General

Additional Charges for Utility Bills not Paid by Direct Debit (Limits) [Col. 714] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Robert Halfon)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Opposition Day [20th allotted day] Fairness and Inequality [Col. 719] Motion—(Jonathan Edwards)—on a Division, negatived

Public Bodies [Col. 820] Motion—(John Penrose); Division deferred till tomorrow

Nagorno-Karabakh and Azerbaijan [Col. 821] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Tourism (VAT) [Col. 191WH] Medical Records (Confidentiality) [Col. 215WH] Fuel Poverty [Col. 223WH] Welfare Reform [Col. 246WH] UK Citizenship [Col. 255WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Statements [Col. 43WS]

Petition [Col. 5P]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 525W] [see index inside back page]